# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy?

## Matera

What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?

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## adamo

In Sicily J2 is most common owning 28% of men. R1b is just behind with 25% and E3b is also at about 25%. In southern Italy its about 25-30% R1b 25% J2 and 20-25% E3b, these are by far the most common with another 20% split between a wide assortment of rarer and less dominant haplogroups in this area. J2 originated near southern turkey/ northern Syria / northwestern Iraq. Look it up on Wikipedia to see which countries have the highest j2 frequencies there is an extensive list, turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, Georgia, Greece ( 20%) the greek island of Crete has high frequencies, southern Italy, Sicily. R1b is "Celtic". Highest frequencies in Ireland, England, Scotland, France, holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal ( Iberia is a lot less "antonio banderas" Mediterranean than most genetic amateurs may think it fits in just right with pale Germanic R1b people's), Germany, Switzerland, north Italy etc. E3b is found in non-negroid North Africans such as Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans. The most common in Sicily would be J2 but R1b is very close behind and E3b right after. What we can deduce from this is that the J2 represents Fertile Crescent-Mesopotamian-middle eastern genetic influx, R1b represents Western European Germanic "Celtic" blood and E3b represents strictly north-African blood of a non-black type. Southern mainland Italy has a similar distribution but less J2 more 25% instead of 30% and R1b is about 25-30%, e3b is 20-25%. In other words the genetic structure of southern Italy + Sicily has a more equal distribution between these 3 haplogroups, thus pointing to more middle eastern/north African lineages in these regions. Central Italy has 40-45% R1b , 20% J2 and 10% E3b so there is much more white man "Celtic" blood and about the same/slightly less middle eastern blood with the E3b being about half that in southern Italy/Sicily ( now 10% in central.). The north is 55-60% R1b so more than half of the men are Celtic. There is 10% of both J2 and E3b in the north making both lineages rare on their own, but making the total of Neolithic blood at about 20% of north italian men (combined). Whereas the Neolithic of "foreign" element that arrived much later than the R1b men is at about 50% of south italian males, making southern Italy a genetic "isolate" compared to other nearby west European etc. areas and even compared to north Italy which clusters much closer with Swiss, French, German men etc.

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## Anthro-inclined

> In Sicily J2 is most common owning 28% of men. R1b is just behind with 25% and E3b is also at about 25%. In southern Italy its about 25-30% R1b 25% J2 and 20-25% E3b, these are by far the most common with another 20% split between a wide assortment of rarer and less dominant haplogroups in this area. J2 originated near southern turkey/ northern Syria / northwestern Iraq. Look it up on Wikipedia to see which countries have the highest j2 frequencies there is an extensive list, turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, Georgia, Greece ( 20%) the greek island of Crete has high frequencies, southern Italy, Sicily. R1b is "Celtic". Highest frequencies in Ireland, England, Scotland, France, holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal ( Iberia is a lot less "antonio banderas" Mediterranean than most genetic amateurs may think it fits in just right with pale Germanic R1b people's), Germany, Switzerland, north Italy etc. E3b is found in non-negroid North Africans such as Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans. The most common in Sicily would be J2 but R1b is very close behind and E3b right after. What we can deduce from this is that the J2 represents Fertile Crescent-Mesopotamian-middle eastern genetic influx, R1b represents Western European Germanic "Celtic" blood and E3b represents strictly north-African blood of a non-black type.


R1b is the most predominant in both Sicily and Southern Italy. Wiki is usually out of date when it comes to frequencey charts and the sample sizes are very small usually, heres the eupedia page.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
Also your E estimates are off, thats higher than Greece and some other Balkan countries.

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## Matera

> In Sicily J2 is most common owning 28% of men. R1b is just behind with 25% and E3b is also at about 25%. In southern Italy its about 25-30% R1b 25% J2 and 20-25% E3b, these are by far the most common with another 20% split between a wide assortment of rarer and less dominant haplogroups in this area. J2 originated near southern turkey/ northern Syria / northwestern Iraq. Look it up on Wikipedia to see which countries have the highest j2 frequencies there is an extensive list, turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, Georgia, Greece ( 20%) the greek island of Crete has high frequencies, southern Italy, Sicily. R1b is "Celtic". Highest frequencies in Ireland, England, Scotland, France, holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal ( Iberia is a lot less "antonio banderas" Mediterranean than most genetic amateurs may think it fits in just right with pale Germanic R1b people's), Germany, Switzerland, north Italy etc. E3b is found in non-negroid North Africans such as Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans. The most common in Sicily would be J2 but R1b is very close behind and E3b right after. What we can deduce from this is that the J2 represents Fertile Crescent-Mesopotamian-middle eastern genetic influx, R1b represents Western European Germanic "Celtic" blood and E3b represents strictly north-African blood of a non-black type. Southern mainland Italy has a similar distribution but less J2 more 25% instead of 30% and R1b is about 25-30%, e3b is 20-25%. In other words the genetic structure of southern Italy + Sicily has a more equal distribution between these 3 haplogroups, thus pointing to more middle eastern/north African lineages in these regions. Central Italy has 40-45% R1b , 20% J2 and 10% E3b so there is much more white man "Celtic" blood and about the same/slightly less middle eastern blood with the E3b being about half that in southern Italy/Sicily ( now 10% in central.). The north is 55-60% R1b so more than half of the men are Celtic. There is 10% of both J2 and E3b in the north making both lineages rare on their own, but making the total of Neolithic blood at about 20% of north italian men (combined). Whereas the Neolithic of "foreign" element that arrived much later than the R1b men is at about 50% of south italian males, making southern Italy a genetic "isolate" compared to other nearby west European etc. areas and even compared to north Italy which clusters much closer with Swiss, French, German men etc.


So at one point my Paternal ancestor was from North Africa or somewhere in the south Mediterranean, that's cool its very interesting learning about this stuff. My Dads side of the family is darker skin and hair color could it possibly be related because of south Mediterranean or North African origin on the paternal side, my Grandfather on my moms side is also a darker complexion.

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## Anthro-inclined

> So at one point my Paternal ancestor was from North Africa or somewhere in the south Mediterranean, that's cool its very interesting learning about this stuff. My Dads side of the family is darker skin and hair color could it possibly be related because of south Mediterranean or North African origin on the paternal side, my Grandfather on my moms side is also a darker complexion.


Keep in mind these migrations happened thousands and sometimes tens of thousands of years ago. The last of your paternal line ancestors to live in North Africa could have lived over 20000 years ago, so any correlation between your fathers complexsion and Haplogroup is most likely coincidental.

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## adamo

Take the national geographics "genographic project" test, but it costs 200$, it will tell you exactly what is your y-DNA (paternal) ant mtdna (maternal) haplogroups so you will know for sure what you are and what % of Italians have it, and what countries have it at the highest percentages. But personally I know many italian men that are J2 positive. They have thick black beards, olive complexions and brown eyes kind of like Lebanese, Turks and Iraqis or Syrians, Armenians etc. you have to take the test to truly find out what your personal story is. For example, I'm italian from the south and I'm haplogroup T. This is found in 21% of men from Jordan ( near Saudis Arabia, even more south and exotic than northern middle eastern J2.) it's found in 4% of Italians and less than1% of Europeans. It's found in certain Egyptian , omanian, Iraqi men. It's also found in Iraqi and Kurdish Jews. If you are Oliver color my friend, you may be part of the far more extensive J2 community originating in turkey/Syria/north Iraq that owns 20% of italian men on a national level, with highs in Calabria, apulia, campania, south lazio , abbruzzo etc of higher levels depending on the area. For example south Calabria near Reggio Calabria has 25% J2. Central Calabria has 44%! south apulia has 20-25% and north apulia near foggia has 44%. Other regions in the north and central have 5-10% J2. Parts of Tuscany and abbruzzo have 25% etc. all of them being European highs of J2, maximums on a European CONTINENTAL level. Only Crete, Cyprus parts of mainland Greece, Italy parts of Bulgaria , Albania etc have about 20% J2 out of all Europe!! Iberia ( Spain-Portugal has about 5-10% , 15% in certain places big MAX.) they got less than Italy, Greece, Crete and a few isolated European spots. And trust me, if you and your family are some of those slick black haired, black bearded Assyrian types you sort of always knew it probably that your slightly different from most pale skinned Scandinavians or other Europeans with blond hair blue eyes and you may relate more with Lebanese men or Armenians than swedes German's or Irish don't listen to anthro's post loll

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## Anthro-inclined

> Take the national geographics "genographic project" test, but it costs 200$, it will tell you exactly what is your y-DNA (paternal) ant mtdna (maternal) haplogroups so you will know for sure what you are and what % of Italians have it, and what countries have it at the highest percentages. But personally I know many italian men that are J2 positive. They have thick black beards, olive complexions and brown eyes kind of like Lebanese, Turks and Iraqis or Syrians, Armenians etc. you have to take the test to truly find out what your personal story is. For example, I'm italian from the south and I'm haplogroup T. This is found in 21% of men from Jordan ( near Saudis Arabia, even more south and exotic than northern middle eastern J2.) it's found in 4% of Italians and less than1% of Europeans. It's found in certain Egyptian , omanian, Iraqi men. It's also found in Iraqi and Kurdish Jews. If you are Oliver color my friend, you may be part of the far more extensive J2 community originating in turkey/Syria/north Iraq that owns 20% of italian men on a national level, with highs in Calabria, apulia, campania, south lazio , abbruzzo etc of higher levels depending on the area. For example south Calabria near Reggio Calabria has 25% J2. Central Calabria has 44%! south apulia has 20-25% and north apulia near foggia has 44%. Other regions in the north and central have 5-10% J2. Parts of Tuscany and abbruzzo have 25% etc. all of them being European highs of J2, maximums on a European CONTINENTAL level. Only Crete, Cyprus parts of mainland Greece, Italy parts of Bulgaria , Albania etc have about 20% J2 out of all Europe!! Iberia ( Spain-Portugal has about 5-10% , 15% in certain places big MAX.) they got less than Italy, Greece, Crete and a few isolated European spots. And trust me, if you and your family are some of those slick black haired, black bearded Assyrian types you sort of always knew it probably that your slightly different from most pale skinned Scandinavians or other Europeans with blond hair blue eyes and you may relate more with Lebanese men or Armenians than swedes German's or Irish don't listen to anthro's post loll


 Why should he not listen to what I said its true. Just because you think that phenotypes and haplogroups go hand in hand , dosent mean everyone does, haplogroups are not used for this purpose, go look at autosomal genetics if you want to talk about phenotypes. give a convincing argument on why im wrong, dont just state it. Also please dont mis use the reputation system, how was I being unhelpful or insulting, I gave him the position most genecists take, if you dont like it present a convincing argument to back your theory I will have no problem debating with you.
For example heres a reason why haplogroups are unreliable for determining or correlating to phenotypes. Estonia carrys some of the highest frequencies of haplogroup T in Europe just behind Italy, a middle eastern marker most common in the horn of Africa but yet Estonia pocesses the highest frequencies of blue eyes and blonde hair. Another case is in the Welsh town of Abergele, they pocess a frequencey of 33% of E1b1b, but they still look like other Welsh.

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## adamo

Because on a national level most Estonians are Finno-Slavic and welsh are celts so these few exceptions are major outliers in their areas at very VERY low levels nationally speaking. Maybe these T Estonian men are among some of the only dark haired Estonians lol as most, as you correctly stated, are as pale and blonde haired blue eyed as they get. You are correct to a certain degree that haplogroup does not necessarily affect phenotype since the combination of features in a human is more complex than this, affected by both mother and father and other ancestors to certain degrees. But often, within someone's physical features is a certain amount of the genetic legacy of both father and mothers distinct but precise roots...that's all I'm trying to say. If his father was J2 and his mother was mtdna H as is typical found in Italy and rest of European women, he may not be as olive skinned but still has arabid or middle eastern facial features, or swarthy thick black hair and brown eyes, it does affect phenotype to a certain degree, depending on which side of the family the individual took more from.

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## Kardu

Aren't J2, R1b etc. too general? We should be talking about the subgroups. Otherwise it's too misleading. J2 in Italy and J2 in Turkey/Armenia/Georgia doesn't mean they are identical....

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## adamo

J2a found most frequently in Crete, Italy, Cyprus, Anatolia, Caucasus central ( Armenia, Georgia) Azerbaijan, northeast Iran, Lebanon , north Iraq.....J2b found highest in Albania, Greece, parts of apulia......R1b in Italy is predominantly u152 R-S28 subclade, the franco-Swiss type of R1b.....the E1b1b (E-M215) is predominantly within E-V68 of the E-M78 sub-type found mostly this type in Europe ( up to 50% certain zones of the Balkans), also in Sicily, Sardinia etc. E-M78 moved from North Africa to levant then Anatolia and finally Europe..... Within E-M78 there's our famous E-V13 most common E in Europe, especially in the Balkans. There's also E-M81 with its highest global frequencies in the western North Africa Maghreb region....it can be found at 10-20% depending on the locale in different regions of Iberia ( Portugal,Spain) you know...

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## Anthro-inclined

> Because on a national level most Estonians are Finno-Slavic and welsh are celts so these few exceptions are major outliers in their areas at very VERY low levels nationally speaking. Maybe these T Estonian men are among some of the only dark haired Estonians lol as most, as you correctly stated, are as pale and blonde haired blue eyed as they get. You are correct to a certain degree that haplogroup does not necessarily affect phenotype since the combination of features in a human is more complex than this, affected by both mother and father and other ancestors to certain degrees. But often, within someone's physical features is a certain amount of the genetic legacy of both father and mothers distinct but precise roots...that's all I'm trying to say. If his father was J2 and his mother was mtdna H as is typical found in Italy and rest of European women, he may not be as olive skinned but still has arabid or middle eastern facial features, or swarthy thick black hair and brown eyes, it does affect phenotype to a certain degree, depending on which side of the family the individual took more from.


Understand Y-DNA represents less than 2% of your genome, you can understand why such a small component cant explain as much as you have said, and you agree with me haplogroups are unreliable for determining skin pigmentation, because as you put its a more complex process and other factors go into it?

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## Kardu

> J2a found most frequently in Crete, Italy, Cyprus, Anatolia, Caucasus central ( Armenia, Georgia) Azerbaijan, northeast Iran, Lebanon , north Iraq.....J2b found highest in Albania, Greece, parts of apulia......R1b in Italy is predominantly u152 R-S28 subclade, the franco-Swiss type of R1b.....the E1b1b (E-M215) is predominantly within E-V68 of the E-M78 sub-type found mostly this type in Europe ( up to 50% certain zones of the Balkans), also in Sicily, Sardinia etc. E-M78 moved from North Africa to levant then Anatolia and finally Europe..... Within E-M78 there's our famous E-V13 most common E in Europe, especially in the Balkans. There's also E-M81 with its highest global frequencies in the western North Africa Maghreb region....it can be found at 10-20% depending on the locale in different regions of Iberia ( Portugal,Spain) you know...


So far there are 4 subgroups of J2 in Georgia. Which ones are identical to Italian?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

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## adamo

J2a also known as J-M410 is found in all the aforementioned countries. Variants of J2a are found in Italy as in Georgia, turkey, Armenia, north eastern Iran, Azerbaijan, etc.

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## Kardu

> J2a also known as J-M410 is found in all the aforementioned countries. Variants of J2a are found in Italy as in Georgia, turkey, Armenia, north eastern Iran, Azerbaijan, etc.


We have M410-J2a* among Georgians, yes. But in their cluster: J L26- Cluster B| J2a* so far I can't find any Italian.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ion=ycolorized

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## Matera

> Because on a national level most Estonians are Finno-Slavic and welsh are celts so these few exceptions are major outliers in their areas at very VERY low levels nationally speaking. Maybe these T Estonian men are among some of the only dark haired Estonians lol as most, as you correctly stated, are as pale and blonde haired blue eyed as they get. You are correct to a certain degree that haplogroup does not necessarily affect phenotype since the combination of features in a human is more complex than this, affected by both mother and father and other ancestors to certain degrees. But often, within someone's physical features is a certain amount of the genetic legacy of both father and mothers distinct but precise roots...that's all I'm trying to say. If his father was J2 and his mother was mtdna H as is typical found in Italy and rest of European women, he may not be as olive skinned but still has arabid or middle eastern facial features, or swarthy thick black hair and brown eyes, it does affect phenotype to a certain degree, depending on which side of the family the individual took more from.


whats does it mean when my dna numbers, Iam not to sure what the scientific name is called but i think there called alleles something like that, what if these numbers match up with cretin people does that mean I share close common ancestor? also doesn't having the same Haplogroup comfirm the same common ancestor? If for eg me and someone else have E1b1b1 or the same subclade, is there still a distance involved, to me it seams like if you have the same Haplogroup your related somewhere down the line right? For subclades for example all the E-V's aren't they all related? even though they have different high frequencies in certain parts around the Mediterranean. Also sorry for all questions but, how do they find subclades how can they see them in the dna results?

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## adamo

Well I'm not sure if you match up with cretin people bro you'd have to decide by yourself lollll, no but seriously, yes if you share the same haplogroup group as someone, even if you live in a country where most people are a different haplogroup, it means you cluster more with individuals from other areas/countries that have the same haplogroup as you, there are subclades or subgroups within haplogroups also that have their own places of distribution, but overall, being in the same haplogroup as someone pretty much indicates you have the same region of origin. So if your an italian J2 (20% national level) you have origins in Mesopotamia/ the Fertile Crescent ( the northern Iraq/turkey/Syria region of the Middle East). If your a E1b1b italian ( 10% national level) you find your origins somewhere in North Africa ( possibly Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria etc.) if your a G2a italian (6-8%) you are probably linked to the central Caucasus adyghe I people or certain Georgians, Azeris) note that J2 is also found in Georgians and Azeris, if your R1b italian (50%) your closest to where highest R1b frequencies are found ( Irish , English, French , Belgian) but then your subgroup also tells a very crucial part of the story...most Italians from example are R1b U-152, this is a branch of R1b found most frequently in north-central Italy, Switzerland and France. So most R1b Italians have a branch of R1b making them similar to Swiss and French men, same for all other haplogroups ad their subclades. And don't worry about the questions, we like them! : ) this is what this wonderful forum is for so ask away all day : )

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## Matera

> Well I'm not sure if you match up with cretin people bro you'd have to decide by yourself lollll, no but seriously, yes if you share the same haplogroup group as someone, even if you live in a country where most people are a different haplogroup, it means you cluster more with individuals from other areas/countries that have the same haplogroup as you, there are subclades or subgroups within haplogroups also that have their own places of distribution, but overall, being in the same haplogroup as someone pretty much indicates you have the same region of origin. So if your an italian J2 (20% national level) you have origins in Mesopotamia/ the Fertile Crescent ( the northern Iraq/turkey/Syria region of the Middle East). If your a E1b1b italian ( 10% national level) you find your origins somewhere in North Africa ( possibly Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria etc.) if your a G2a italian (6-8%) you are probably linked to the central Caucasus adyghe I people or certain Georgians, Azeris) note that J2 is also found in Georgians and Azeris, if your R1b italian (50%) your closest to where highest R1b frequencies are found ( Irish , English, French , Belgian) but then your subgroup also tells a very crucial part of the story...most Italians from example are R1b U-152, this is a branch of R1b found most frequently in north-central Italy, Switzerland and France. So most R1b Italians have a branch of R1b making them similar to Swiss and French men, same for all other haplogroups ad their subclades. And don't worry about the questions, we like them! : ) this is what this wonderful forum is for so ask away all day : )


sorry that was a typo I meant to say Certain.

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## adamo

Haplogroups can not determine traits such as skin pigmentation....SO what are you telling me? An N1c Finnic man can be darker then a haplogroup A or B black man? What are you telling me? That haplogroup E men from Egypt are paler than R1b Britons or Irish? Yes it's 2% of the genome but your most recent paternal haplogroup mutation is the one that survives today in you so it's your personal most recent mutation. Haplogroups do determine how you look since a mutation made a man inherit his haplogroup and all members of that haplogroup trace back to that man now dislike this post too please as you have my past 6 ones lol

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## Anthro-inclined

> Haplogroups can not determine traits such as skin pigmentation....SO what are you telling me? An N1c Finnic man can be darker then a haplogroup A or B black man? What are you telling me? That haplogroup E men from Egypt are paler than R1b Britons or Irish? Yes it's 2% of the genome but your most recent paternal haplogroup mutation is the one that survives today in you so it's your personal most recent mutation. Haplogroups do determine how you look since a mutation made a man inherit his haplogroup and all members of that haplogroup trace back to that man now dislike this post too please as you have my past 6 ones lol


I honestly did not dislike one of your posts, im no hypocrite, I dont know who did it but its certainly wrong for them to do so, you havent been insulting or unhelpful.
Back to the point, Haplogroup A exists in Britian as a relic of Nubian Roman slaves, so yes a man who is haplogroup A can look lighter than an R1b man
This is common knowledge that haplogroups come into populations and become absorbed, so there is no recognizable difference in surrounding peoples.
Haplogroups have very ancient origins, and after tens of thousands of years populations adapt to new conditions, sorry but youll be better suited to look at autosomal DNA to explain what you are talking about.

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## nordicwarrior

> Why should he not listen to what I said its true. Just because you think that phenotypes and haplogroups go hand in hand , dosent mean everyone does, haplogroups are not used for this purpose, go look at autosomal genetics if you want to talk about phenotypes. give a convincing argument on why im wrong, dont just state it. Also please dont mis use the reputation system, how was I being unhelpful or insulting, I gave him the position most genecists take, if you dont like it present a convincing argument to back your theory I will have no problem debating with you.
> For example heres a reason why haplogroups are unreliable for determining or correlating to phenotypes. Estonia carrys some of the highest frequencies of haplogroup T in Europe just behind Italy, a middle eastern marker most common in the horn of Africa but yet Estonia pocesses the highest frequencies of blue eyes and blonde hair. Another case is in the Welsh town of Abergele, they pocess a frequencey of 33% of E1b1b, but they still look like other Welsh.


Excellent examples Anthro-... I didn't know this about Estonia or Abergele.

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## adamo

There are many instances where they don't go hand in hand and other instances where they do I suppose, I don't know it would be interesting to further discuss this maybe I can learn some more.

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## zanipolo

> So far there are 4 subgroups of J2 in Georgia. Which ones are identical to Italian?
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults


from the 2008 papers, north-east Italy has 3% of J2a1k .....what is this?

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## adamo

Zanipolo I am haplogroup T L299+, but I'm literally the only person in the genographic project that had a new subgroup created for me, T-PF7443 , whatever that means. Do u have any info on this lol...I saw on ISOGG website that L299 positive puts me in T1a1 and I ordered ftdna project for more detailed info but do u have any idea where this subclade of T is found most

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## nordicwarrior

Adamo, Anthro- is spot on. Y-haplogroup membership techniquely has no effect on skin color. As more and more ethnic mixing occurs, the racial aspect to y-dna will disappear. 


This next part is my opinion only though. I think there are aspects effected by y-dna that science either hasn't figured out or are not keen on sharing. I think some haplogroups have an earlier onset of puberty than others, and that some y-haplogroups have higher testosterone levels than others. DNA is more complicated and linked in ways that we may never fully realize.

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## adamo

That last segment is rubbish I have met individuals, men in particular, from all racial backgrounds and colors that when I took a look seemed to have low testosterone. Some where tall others very dark others white....testosterone varies on an individual basis considering even within a population there is 85% of the variability/diversity found throughout the entire world. And haplogroup membership does have an effect on skin color but there are many exceptions. For example mtdna haplogroup J is found at 20-25% across the Arabian peninsula and the Middle East. It's also found in certain Danish and German women. It has been in the same spot on the Arabian peninsula for thousands of years without moving, the Arabian variety. Those J women from Denmark and Germany look just like most Germans though, because their J traveled very far from its origin point to colder temperatures Europe over thousands of years and then subsequently diluted itself/mixed in with R1b or I1a depending on the locale they where in. So instead of mixing in with similar middle eastern paternal haplogroups as in the Middle East, over thousands of years of being diluted with men from a different haplogroup, they lost their trademark J looks. So there are many exceptions but say J2 men for example, some of them came over to Italy during greek colonization or the Etruscans of 800 B.C. , they came much later, still holding on to their darker complexion, even though they mixed in with local mtdna H women so many don't look olive anymore etc, but there are exceptions

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## nordicwarrior

> That last segment is rubbish...


Possibly. I think I'm onto something though.

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## adamo

Trust me, I don't. way way WAY too many exceptions for it to be considered a rule. Low and high testerone is found in all races, colors, ethnic groups across the world.

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## Anthro-inclined

> Trust me, I don't. way way WAY too many exceptions for it to be considered a rule. Low and high testerone is found in all races, colors, ethnic groups across the world.


 Sort of like your theory on skin complexsion right? Its funny how you denounce one correlation with many exceptions, but support another that we have proven to have many exceptions.

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## nordicwarrior

Adamo, at least you're consistently inconsistent. :)

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## adamo

No lol testosterone is inconsistent, considering it can be raised with execercise and musculation and lowered if out of shape. It varies on an individual level, even from birth within males of the same population.

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## nordicwarrior

Several years ago I remember hearing about a study that found the average African American had a much higher testosterone level than the average Caucasian male in the U.S. (It was either on the radio or an article I read-- can't recall the exact source.) 

Does anyone have any knowledge of these findings? Maybe the link is correlated to y-haplogroup rather than skin color. This report would have pre-dated haplogroup science by several years and maybe the researchers missed the linkage.

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## Anthro-inclined

> No lol testosterone is inconsistent, considering it can be raised with execercise and musculation and lowered if out of shape. It varies on an individual level, even from birth within males of the same population.


Skin complexsion varies too. If you live in Florida and your white odds are youll be darker than your white canadian counterpart. Its called getting a tan, why are you still driving your flawed argument?

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## adamo

So being a negroid man with paternal Y-DNA A and mtdna L0 and being darker than the night is also just getting a tan? Hey? Where's jimmy? Oh he's just over there burning in the sun , getting a tan you know burning to a crisp lol. Of course to a certain degree it is linked to certain traits. And personal, black men having more testosterone than white men is a myth. There are black men with higher testosterone than certain white men, and vice versa. It varies individually, based upon the genetic inheritance from both sides, you know, at other 98% of your genome ? : ). If your paternal side from both his parents total testosterone inheritance is low, and same from your mothers side ( whatever her father had and her mother was given via her ancestors also) then having all across the board inherited low testosterone genes, you'll probably have low testosterone. If one side has higher and the other family side low you may have medium testosterone, another sibling may have high and the other low. If both sides inherited medium testosterone then your likely to have medium/ relatively high testosterone. A man with high testosterone may have had many ancestors with high testosterone and even some with low levels, he just inherited more traits from another side of his family whereas his brother is more like some other ancestor. It's very complicated, and as we look back at your parents (2) grand parents (4) great grandparents (16) etc. you can see how this starts to become awfully random of an event.

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## Anthro-inclined

> So being a negroid man with paternal Y-DNA A and mtdna L0 and being darker than the night is also just getting a tan? Hey? Where's jimmy? Oh he's just over there burning in the sun , getting a tan you know burning to a crisp lol.


 Point is its like what you stated with test levels, they can change according to certain factors that are not genetically predetermined. Your argument was working out changes testosterone levels, and my counter is tanning changes skin complexsion, how much it changes can vary according to different people, but the same is true for testosterone.



> Of course to a certain degree it is linked to certain traits. And personal, black men having more testosterone than white men is a myth. There are black men with higher testosterone than certain white men, and vice versa. It varies individually, based upon the genetic inheritance from both sides, you know, at other 98% of your genome ? : ).


I agree that test levels vary even within the specific ethnic population, but so can skin complexsion, i.e some italians are darker than others, but in a broader observation, we can see on average Italians are darker than Brits, and the same can be said for test levels. READ THIS STUDY.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12608929




> If your paternal side from both his parents total testosterone inheritance is low, and same from your mothers side ( whatever her father had and her mother was given via her ancestors also) then having all across the board inherited low testosterone genes, you'll probably have low testosterone. If one side has higher and the other family side low you may have medium testosterone, another sibling may have high and the other low.


Yes, and the same goes for skin complexsion, I am considerably darker than my brother, yet we both have the same Y DNA, you see more holes forming in your argument?



> If both sides inherited medium testosterone then your likely to have medium/ relatively high testosterone. A man with high testosterone may have had many ancestors with high testosterone and even some with low levels, he just inherited more traits from another side of his family whereas his brother is more like some other ancestor. It's very complicated, and as we look back at your parents (2) grand parents (4) great grandparents (16) etc. you can see how this starts to become awfully random of an event.


 Again, all the same for skin complexsion, as you said its an awfully random event, and this is the case for all genetic traits, including skin complexsion, so NW's theory is just as valid as yours.

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## nordicwarrior

Thanks for the link Anthro-. Interesting to note that of the three groups tested, the one with the lowest testosterone level was also the shortest.

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## LeBrok

> Thanks for the link Anthro-. Interesting to note that of the three groups tested, the one with the lowest testosterone level was also the shortest.


Another thing to look at, in this context, is the amount of testosterone receptors. One can have high testosterone level but also can feature very few testosterone/androgen receptors. This combination will produce symptoms comparable to low testosterone level.

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## nordicwarrior

> Another thing to look at, in this context, is the amount of testosterone receptors. One can have high testosterone level but also can feature very few testosterone/androgen receptors. This combination will produce symptoms comparable to low testosterone level.


Very true. I wonder if the genetic researchers are looking for items like this.

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## feduzzonitti

> Well I'm not sure if you match up with cretin people bro you'd have to decide by yourself lollll, no but seriously, yes if you share the same haplogroup group as someone, even if you live in a country where most people are a different haplogroup, it means you cluster more with individuals from other areas/countries that have the same haplogroup as you, there are subclades or subgroups within haplogroups also that have their own places of distribution, but overall, being in the same haplogroup as someone pretty much indicates you have the same region of origin. So if your an italian J2 (20% national level) you have origins in Mesopotamia/ the Fertile Crescent ( the northern Iraq/turkey/Syria region of the Middle East). If your a E1b1b italian ( 10% national level) you find your origins somewhere in North Africa ( possibly Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria etc.) if your a G2a italian (6-8%) you are probably linked to the central Caucasus adyghe I people or certain Georgians, Azeris) note that J2 is also found in Georgians and Azeris, if your R1b italian (50%) your closest to where highest R1b frequencies are found ( Irish , English, French , Belgian) but then your subgroup also tells a very crucial part of the story...most Italians from example are R1b U-152, this is a branch of R1b found most frequently in north-central Italy, Switzerland and France. So most R1b Italians have a branch of R1b making them similar to Swiss and French men, same for all other haplogroups ad their subclades. And don't worry about the questions, we like them! : ) this is what this wonderful forum is for so ask away all day : )


Totally agree, the phenotype also confirming your post, but the south Italians do not accept their past and they get angry with this subject. They consider themselves "Mediterranean" without ancestry in Africa and Mesopotamia (their DNA is for the 50% J2 and E1bu1) and of course they do not consider "Mediterranean" the country such Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Iraq, etc. ... strange, right?

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## Maleth

> Totally agree, the phenotype also confirming your post, but the south Italians do not accept their past and they get angry with this subject. They consider themselves "Mediterranean" without ancestry in Africa and Mesopotamia (their DNA is for the 50% J2 and E1bu1) and of course they do not consider "Mediterranean" the country such Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Iraq, etc. ... strange, right?


Hello feduzzonitti, How interesting. Can you please refer to haplogroups and percentages in South Italy that are directly related to Egypt, Tunisa Algeria (I think you forgot Morrocco and Libya in your analyse) Iraq etc? Many thanks.

Welcome to the forum by the way  :Smile:

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## feduzzonitti

> Hello feduzzonitti, How interesting. Can you please refer to haplogroups and percentages in South Italy that are directly related to Egypt, Tunisa Algeria (I think you forgot Morrocco and Libya in your analyse) Iraq etc? Many thanks.
> 
> Welcome to the forum by the way


There is a funny video on youtube, you can find it search: Russel Peters-Speaking Italian*it is really true but referred about the south italians.*

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## Maleth

> There is a funny video on youtube, you can find it serach: Italian-Indian
> 
> *it is really true.*


Thats a good one, though he is referring to Italians not southern ones (I hope that dosen't make you angry  :Grin: ) more related to the humor thread. Standing comedians are great just love them. 

Something more related to the subject since I was curious with your interesting analysis. I thought you had a new study or something similar. 


A 2013 study by Peristera Paschou et al. confirms that the Mediterranean Sea has acted as a strong barrier to gene flow through geographic isolation following initial settlements. Samples from (Northern) Italy, Tuscany, Sicily and Sardinia are closest to other Southern Europeans from Iberia, the Balkans and Greece, who are in turn closest to the Neolithic migrants that spread farming throughout Europe, represented here by the Cappadocian sample from Anatolia. But there hasn't been any significant admixture from the Middle East or North Africa into Italy and the rest of Southern Europe since then.[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

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## Hauteville

> Totally agree, the phenotype also confirming your post, but the south Italians do not accept their past and they get angry with this subject. They consider themselves "Mediterranean" without ancestry in Africa and Mesopotamia (their DNA is for the 50% J2 and E1bu1) and of course they do not consider "Mediterranean" the country such Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Iraq, etc. ... strange, right?


Do you really think that?i think you are a ***** of a 'friend of mine'  :Confused: 
By the way the Berber-North African haplogroup in South Italy is 1,5% in Sicily and 0,8% in the Mainlander Southern Italy which is a very negligible percentage. J2 is high but came from the neolithic revolution and not by Arab conquest etc. since Arabs carry J1 and this haplogroup is not that common in the South Italy. 
E1b1b1 is mostly Balkan (E-V13) or with other subclades like E-M35, E-M123 who are also present in the rest of South Europe. Even in the North Italy.
Phenotypes?look at these photos and you can see the big differences.

Sicilians the first two






These are from Calabria



Campania


Lecce


And now.

Iraq


Tunisians


Moroccans


If you think that they look alike you are blind.

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## LeBrok

> Do you really think that?i think you are a ***** of a 'friend of mine' 
> By the way the Berber-North African haplogroup in South Italy is 1,5% in Sicily and 0,8% in the Mainlander Southern Italy which is a very negligible percentage. J2 is high but came from the neolithic revolution and not by Arab conquest etc. since Arabs carry J1 and this haplogroup is not that common in the South Italy. 
> E1b1b1 is mostly Balkan (E-V13) or with other subclades like E-M35, E-M123 who are also present in the rest of South Europe. Even in the North Italy.
> Phenotypes?look at these photos and you can see the big differences.
> 
> Sicilians the first two.


Stop acting so defensive and desperate to prove that there are no genetic connections of South Italy to other mediterranean populations. It doesn't say much about Algerians or Lebanese but it says a lot about you, about set of your mind.

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## Hauteville

> Stop acting so defensive and desperate to prove that there are no genetic connections of South Italy to other mediterranean populations. It doesn't say much about Algerians or Lebanese but it says a lot about you, about set of your mind.


Lol just like other southern Europeans we have some connection with other Mediterranean people but certainly we don't look nothing with north african and iraqis like that Feduzzo said. Look at my photos before to talk, easy to talk about stereotypes without set foot in South Italy!

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## John Doe

> Lol just like other southern Europeans we have some connection with other Mediterranean people but certainly we don't look nothing with north african and iraqis like that Feduzzo said. Look at my photos before to talk, easy to talk about stereotypes without set foot in South Italy!


Are you from southern Italy?

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## Angela

Well, I can't speak for Hauteville, but I certainly don't suffer from NEAD (Near Eastern Aversion Disorder...my own pop psych category, I hasten to add) and I also get pretty tired of this constant drumbeat about southern Italians from anthrofora types. 

I believe there are one or two unfortunate souls who spend at least 18 hours a day in their mothers' basements churning out thousands of posts like this all over anthrofora. One young man now has City Data sites devoted to it, and a whole raft of Youtube videos. Lucky you if your attention hasn't been drawn to this phenomena.

The only difference between me and Hauteville is that I treat such posts with the disregard that they deserve. Well, at least most of the time. :)

Ed. I think the comments by our new poster have to be put in context in terms of the source and the motivation behind it.

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## Hauteville

> Are you from southern Italy?


Yes and we doesn't certainly look like North African and Iraqis.

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## John Doe

> Yes and we doesn't certainly look like North African and Iraqis.


There are however those Moroccans from the northwestern tip of Morocco that tend to have a high rate of blue eyes and red or blonde hair. not all north Africans are the same. In fact, there's a huge difference between say, north Libyans and their southern countrymen, were talking about a Berber/Arab population in the north and a Sub Saharan one in the south.

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## Hauteville

> There are however those Moroccans from the northwestern tip of Morocco that tend to have a high rate of blue eyes and red or blonde hair. not all north Africans are the same. In fact, there's a huge difference between say, north Libyans and their southern countrymen, were talking about a Berber/Arab population in the north and a Sub Saharan one in the south.


I know very well North Africans and I have also been there and even the purest Berbers (like Zidane) stand out everywhere in Italy. Few cases can pass in Southern Italy. The poster feduzzonitti is probably a guy who want to say that to trigger an hatred. He could b a Lega Nord member or to better say a ***** of someone i know or something like that.

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## John Doe

> I know very well North Africans and I have also been there and even the purest Berbers (like Zidane) stand out everywhere in Italy. Few cases can pass in Southern Italy. The poster feduzzonitti is probably a guy who want to say that to trigger an hatred. He is probably a Lega Nord member or something like that.


How much Greek influence do you think exists in southern Italy and eastern Sicily (perhaps less so culturally as that has been overtaken by Romanisation 2,000 years ago but genetically, i.e IBD with Greeks)?

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## Hauteville

> How much Greek influence do you think exists in southern Italy and eastern Sicily (perhaps less so culturally as that has been overtaken by Romanisation 2,000 years ago but genetically, i.e IBD with Greeks)?


Not all southern Italy was colonized by the Greeks, the areas with bigger influences were East and South Sicily, South and Eastern Calabria and Salento though.

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## John Doe

> Not all southern Italy was colonized by the Greeks, the areas with bigger influences were East and South Sicily, South Calabria and Salento though.


Yea, the areas known as Magna Graecia. There are still a Greek speaking minority there.

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## Hauteville

> Yea, the areas known as Magna Graecia. There are still a Greek speaking minority there.


http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greci_di_Messina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecia_salentina

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## Maleth

> I believe there are one or two unfortunate souls who spend at least 18 hours a day in their mothers' basements churning out thousands of posts like this all over anthrofora. One young man now has City Data sites devoted to it, and a whole raft of Youtube videos. Lucky you if your attention hasn't been drawn to this phenomena.
> 
> The only difference between me and Hauteville is that I treat such posts with the disregard that they deserve. Well, at least most of the time. :)
> 
> Ed. I think the comments by our new poster have to be put in context in terms of the source and the motivation behind it.


They are called T R O L L S I think there has been more then one on and off on these fora, usually making aggressive statements on their* first* post and probably same persons under different accounts  :Grin: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****_%28Internet%29

oops sorry T R O L L is banned it seems..... one has to google for T R O L L (Internet) a good description there ;)

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## Mars

> I believe there are one or two unfortunate souls who spend at least 18 hours a day in their mothers' basements churning out thousands of posts like this all over anthrofora. One young man now has City Data sites devoted to it, and a whole raft of Youtube videos. Lucky you if your attention hasn't been drawn to this phenomena.
> 
> The only difference between me and Hauteville is that I treat such posts with the disregard that they deserve. Well, at least most of the time. :)
> 
> Ed. I think the comments by our new poster have to be put in context in terms of the source and the motivation behind it.


I didn't know this phenomenon because I'm not really into these so called "anthrofora". Anyway, I checked some of these fora and I found the posts and thread of a bunch of people you're talking about. I'm no psychologist but I think that at least some of them, but maybe all of them, have some sort of personality disorder. Ignoring their activities would even be healing for their minds. Unfortunately, the internet amplifies, and pervertedly exalts, weird theories, thoughts and obsessions of problematic people, instead of helping them.

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## Hauteville

> What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?


I think you are from Matera. That city was studied by Sarno and Boattini (but with only 25 samples) and the haplogroup frequency is.
E-V12 4%
E-V13 8%
E-V22 8%
E-M123 4%
G1-M285 4%
G2a 24%
I2-P215 4%
J2a 12%
J2b 8%
R1a 4%
R1b-M269 8%
R1b-U152 4%
T 8%

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

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## Mars

> I think you are from Matera. That city was studied by Sarno and Boattini (but with only 25 samples) and the haplogroup frequency is.
> E-V12 4%
> E-V13 8%
> E-V22 8%
> E-M123 4%
> G1-M285 4%
> G2a 24%
> I2-P215 4%
> J2a 12%
> ...


Very neolithic (G2) influenced, and also "ancient greek-like", if I'm not wrong. I read that neolithic italians (let's call them this way...), fled to mountain and faraway regions when italics came down the peninsula. Basilicata is quite far from the native area of italics, and it's a mountain region, too.

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## giuseppe rossi

> Stop acting so defensive and desperate to prove that there are no genetic connections of South Italy to other mediterranean populations. It doesn't say much about Algerians or Lebanese but it says a lot about you, about set of your mind.


The only desperate people I see here a low level users like this "Adamo" who spreads false notions like "50% of South Italians are J2 or E1b1b carriers", while those haplogroups make a third of total y-dna lineages at best.

Also none is denying anything here, we just want to correct misinformation.

For example: the Levantine component ENF from Eurogenes K8 is about 65% in South Italians, 55% in North Italians and 45% in pure Nordic Germans/Central Europeans. It looks like a cline to me, which can be easily explained by Neolitich demic diffusion.

Also North Europeans have about 15-20% of ANE component which peaks in South American natives, so we must assume that North Europeans should look like mestizos...

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## giuseppe rossi

> Well, I can't speak for Hauteville, but I certainly don't suffer from NEAD (Near Eastern Aversion Disorder...my own pop psych category, I hasten to add) and I also get pretty tired of this constant drumbeat about southern Italians from anthrofora types. 
> 
> I believe there are one or two unfortunate souls who spend at least 18 hours a day in their mothers' basements churning out thousands of posts like this all over anthrofora. One young man now has City Data sites devoted to it, and a whole raft of Youtube videos. Lucky you if your attention hasn't been drawn to this phenomena.
> 
> The only difference between me and Hauteville is that I treat such posts with the disregard that they deserve. Well, at least most of the time. :)
> 
> Ed. I think the comments by our new poster have to be put in context in terms of the source and the motivation behind it.


Hahahahahaha

I dunno for you, but I really doubt that this unfortunate soul will ever post group photos of Southern Italians like these.

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## LeBrok

> The only desperate people I see here a low level users like this "Adamo" who spreads false notions like "50% of South Italians are J2 or E1b1b carriers", while those haplogroups make* a third* of total y-dna lineages *at best*.






> Also North Europeans have about 15-20% of ANE component which peaks in South American natives, so we must *assume* that North Europeans should look like *mestizos*...






> Also none is denying anything here, we just want to *correct* *misinformation*.


Are you sure you don't have NEAR syndrome?

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## giuseppe rossi

> Are you sure you don't have NEAR syndrome?


No but surely you seem to suffer of Psychological projection.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyc...cal_projection

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## LeBrok

> No but surely you seem to suffer of Psychological projection.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyc...cal_projection


Explain how you got to this conclusion?

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## Angela

> Are you sure you don't have NEAR syndrome?


LeBrok, I must protest! I coined the phrase Near East Aversion Disorder (NEAD). Is this copyright infringement??? :Laughing:  I do like the fact that it now spells "near" however, as in NEAR east! :Grin: 

What could the R stand for...[R]evulsion? Near East Aversion Revulsion? Rather [r]epetitive isn't it?

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## Angela

> Hahahahahaha
> 
> I dunno for you, but I really doubt that this unfortunate soul will ever post group photos of Southern Italians like these.
> 
> Of course he won't. Neither will the few others who spend all their waking hours posting the darkest Italians they can find in order to prove that the groups to which they beare not the "darkest" Europeans. These are obviously mentally disturbed as well as probably racially mixed young men if I put on my amateur psychologist hat. Does that mean you have to rise to the bait? Don't you see that by caring about this ***** you also reveal that you accept the underlying assumption that to be "fairer" is to be somehow "better"? Where do you get that? It's absolutely foreign to me. It would seem to me that a psychologically healthy people with a sense of self-worth and self-esteem would see it's own group as the standard for "attractiveness" for just one example. Why would you accept someone else's standard. It makes no sense to me.
> 
> As for the pictures you


No, I'm sure he wouldn't, from my limited exposure to his "work". (I can't stand to read much of it...my intolerance and impatience with fools is legendary.)

However, he and a few others like him are obviously psychologically damaged as well as probably racially conflicted young men, or they are brainwashed young men indoctrinated by the pernicious "White Supremacist" type groups making a comeback in Europe who have been "traumatized" because they are seen as the "darkest" Europeans, and so want desperately to prove someone ELSE is actually darker, even if they have to spend all their waking hours posting thousands of pictures of the darkest Sicilians they can find. (Obviously they're all sick young people to one degree or another. They're certainly not holding down a challenging job or pursuing a really arduous academic program, and I doubt they're successful early retirees.)

Does that mean you have to rise to the bait every single time, or descend to their level? Don't you also see that by responding in this way you show that you are implicitly accepting their definitions and their standards? What's up with that? While not looking upon it as some sort of badge of honor, and while appreciating the diversity in the world, it seems to me that any psychologically sound person or group would not find huge percentages of their variation "unacceptable" or less worthy, and would wish to look more like some foreign group. In my opinion, to put it at a basic level, there is something wrong with someone who accepts the standards and judgments on these matters created by people not their own. Some type of brainwashing has been going on, either on a cultural or more specifically individual level. Just my two cents.

Oh, and the people you posted look like normal Southern Italians. They don't look like Swedes, or Germans or Levantines or any other bizarre comparison, although certain individuals might "pass" in other places.. There is nothing wrong with that. I certainly have never thought so. I fell madly in love with one of them at first sight...and he looked like a cross between Fabio Ceravolo and Joe Manganiello, not like Stefano Casiraghi or my father. :Grin:

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## feduzzonitti

> In Sicily J2 is most common owning 28% of men. R1b is just behind with 25% and E3b is also at about 25%. In southern Italy its about 25-30% R1b 25% J2 and 20-25% E3b, these are by far the most common with another 20% split between a wide assortment of rarer and less dominant haplogroups in this area. J2 originated near southern turkey/ northern Syria / northwestern Iraq. Look it up on Wikipedia to see which countries have the highest j2 frequencies there is an extensive list, turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, Georgia, Greece ( 20%) the greek island of Crete has high frequencies, southern Italy, Sicily. R1b is "Celtic". Highest frequencies in Ireland, England, Scotland, France, holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal ( Iberia is a lot less "antonio banderas" Mediterranean than most genetic amateurs may think it fits in just right with pale Germanic R1b people's), Germany, Switzerland, north Italy etc. E3b is found in non-negroid North Africans such as Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans. The most common in Sicily would be J2 but R1b is very close behind and E3b right after. *What we can deduce from this is that the J2 represents Fertile Crescent-Mesopotamian-middle eastern genetic influx, R1b represents Western European Germanic "Celtic" blood and E3b represents strictly north-African blood of a non-black type*. Southern mainland Italy has a similar distribution but less J2 more 25% instead of 30% and R1b is about 25-30%, e3b is 20-25%. In other words the genetic structure of southern Italy + Sicily has a more equal distribution between these 3 haplogroups, thus pointing to more middle eastern/north African lineages in these regions. Central Italy has 40-45% R1b , 20% J2 and 10% E3b so there is much more white man "Celtic" blood and about the same/slightly less middle eastern blood with the E3b being about half that in southern Italy/Sicily ( now 10% in central.). The north is 55-60% R1b so more than half of the men are Celtic. There is 10% of both J2 and E3b in the north making both lineages rare on their own, but making the total of Neolithic blood at about 20% of north italian men (combined). Whereas the Neolithic of "foreign" element that arrived much later than the R1b men is at about 50% of south italian males, making southern Italy a genetic "isolate" compared to other nearby west European etc. areas and even compared to north Italy which clusters much closer with Swiss, French, German men etc.


The analysis of Adamo is correct (see the Y-DNA frequencies by region).

In southern Italy, the sum of J2 and E1b1b amounts to about 50% and more in some areas.

Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent (Eupedia).

Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages ( Eupedia).

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## feduzzonitti

A quite common south italian phenotype is the actor Francesco Benigno, you can find him on google.

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## Maleth

> The analysis of Adamo is correct (see the Y-DNA frequencies by region).
> 
> In southern Italy, the sum of J2 and E1b1b amounts to about 50% and more in some areas.


Adamo is not correct. Its like he invented those figures and go against to any serious study. Can you kindly direct to any study that says that. In the meantime:-

A 2004 study by Semino _et al. contradicted this study, and showed that Italians in North-central regions (like Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna) had a higherconcentration of J2 than their Southern counterparts. North-central had 26.9% J2, whereas Calabria (a far Southern region) had 20.0%, Sardinia had 9.7% and Sicily had 16.7%.[10]

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy




> Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent (Eupedia).
> 
> Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages ( Eupedia).


Most E1b1b is E-V13 http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html, and what is the problem exactly? According to current theories and understanding all Haplogroups came out of Africa. Is that bad?

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## Maleth

> A tipical south italian phenotype is the actor Francesco Benigno, you can find him on google.


you can copy and paste URL, make it a little easy for us  :Grin:  everybody does it. 

https://www.google.com.mt/webhp?sour...esco%20benigno

You see how easy? Whats wrong with Francesco Benigno?

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## Hauteville

This guy is surely a famous anti Italian sock of the web. He has created many sock accounts in some other anthrofora and he has made a lot of anti Italian videos. I recognize his t-rolling style and his style of write. In addition to i know his face and he pretends to be Italian from Tuscany but he doesn't look Italian at all. Change forum t-roll.

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## LeBrok

> This guy is surely a famous anti Italian sock of the web. He has created many sock accounts in some other anthrofora and he has made a lot of anti Italian videos. I recognize his t-rolling style and his style of write. In addition to i know his face and he pretends to be Italian from Tuscany but he doesn't look Italian at all. Change forum t-roll.


Who are you talking about?

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## Hauteville

> Who are you talking about?


That feduzzonitti

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## LeBrok

> LeBrok, I must protest! I coined the phrase Near East Aversion Disorder (NEAD). Is this copyright infringement??? I do like the fact that it now spells "near" however, as in NEAR east!
> 
> What could the R stand for...[R]evulsion? Near East Aversion Revulsion? Rather [r]epetitive isn't it?


Lol sorry, I must have remember the Near East part.

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## LeBrok

> That feduzzonitti


 His IP address shows Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and perhaps for that reason he is not very nice to South Italians?

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## Maleth

> His IP address shows Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and perhaps for that reason he is not very nice to South Italians?


how interesting, and why a person from Friuli-Venezia Gulia should have a reason not to be nice to South Italians? Because of Medieval feuds?  :Grin: .

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## giuseppe rossi

Feduzzo is a North African tr.oll who lives in Italy. He is using a proxy, so his IP is fake. He is actually from Tuscany.

If any of you is interested, I will send you the link to his facebook profile...

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## giuseppe rossi

So to make things clear, all Italians and Maltese here are attacking this North African Feduzzo, while a "Canadian" is defending him like a true fanatic warrior.

It looks like a fantay film.

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## feduzzonitti

> That feduzzonitti


*You are off topic*. The topic here is the following

"What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?".

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## Sile

> Adamo is not correct. Its like he invented those figures and go against to any serious study. Can you kindly direct to any study that says that. In the meantime:-
> 
> A 2004 study by Semino _et al. contradicted this study, and showed that Italians in North-central regions (like Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna) had a higherconcentration of J2 than their Southern counterparts. North-central had 26.9% J2, whereas Calabria (a far Southern region) had 20.0%, Sardinia had 9.7% and Sicily had 16.7%.[10]
> 
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy


Adamo is partly correct.....the J2 in romagna ( ravenna , rimini etc ) area is basically due to the extermination of all gallic ( senoni tribe ) people by the Romans and replacing them with South Latnium families.
I suspect that in the interior the Gallic/Celtic Boii tribe around Bologna suffered the same fate............this would have occured between the 2nd and 3rd carthagian wars, IIRC

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## giuseppe rossi

> *You are off topic*. The topic here is the following
> 
> "What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?".


No, you and your sock puppet account Adamo are the ones who started talking about phenotypes and history here, so you are the ones who went off topic. 

LOL.

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## Sile

follow the J2 project person for the romans

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...nd-Viticulture

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## Maleth

> Adamo is partly correct.....the J2 in romagna ( ravenna , rimini etc ) area is basically due to the extermination of all gallic ( senoni tribe ) people by the Romans and replacing them with South Latnium families.
> I suspect that in the interior the Gallic/Celtic Boii tribe around Bologna suffered the same fate............this would have occured between the 2nd and 3rd carthagian wars, IIRC


.......and of course the story does not end there and probably reversed at some point. There has been a sequence of Germanic invasions and settlements from the North. Tuscany probably had high J2 HG prior to Roman invasions. This is apart the vague descriptions. So it makes the whole reply to Matera incorrect and misleading with present day knowledge most of it already available in 16/4/2013  :Grin:

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## Maleth

> *You are off topic*. The topic here is the following
> 
> "What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?".


https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

Not a near eastern and neither a north African admixture and neither a French admixture for arguments sake, none of the four regions are the same. Why this obsession?

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## Hauteville

This guy could have the proxy in Friuli but i'm pretty sure that he is the mulatto guy who live in Florence and t-rolls italians everywhere with sock accounts and videos in Youtube.

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## Hauteville

> *You are off topic*. The topic here is the following
> 
> "What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?".


Come back to Tunisia t-roll.

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## Angela

> *You are off topic*. The topic here is the following
> 
> "What is the most common Y Dna Haplogroup in Sicily and Southern Italy? which Haplogroups links certain migrations in Sicily and Southern Italy from around the Mediterranean?".


The topic has been extensively covered on this Board. The Eupedia charts are a good place to start. Boattini et al is a very good source, in my opinion, given their sampling methods and the level of subclade resolution. Threads on the topic can be found using the search engine. The discussions are not only about frequency; they also attempt to trace the haplogroups to certain migrations. Since you have such an interest in the topic, I would suggest that you read the relevant material and cite it where appropriate, particularly in terms of the sources of the migration. If you disagree, please list sources and the logic behind your disagreement. Repeating the same unsupported generalizations over and over again is not helpful. Personally, I don't respond to those kinds of meaningless posts.




> Sile:Adamo is partly correct.....the J2 in romagna ( ravenna , rimini etc ) area is basically due to the extermination of all gallic ( senoni tribe ) people by the Romans and replacing them with South Latnium families. I suspect that in the interior the Gallic/Celtic Boii tribe around Bologna suffered the same fate............this would have occured between the 2nd and 3rd carthagian wars, IIRC


Could you please cite your sources for these claims.

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## Angela

Keep it civil or there will be consequences no matter who you are...per l'amor di Dio stop falling into the same trap over and over again. Control your tempers. Stupidity and agendas can so easily be exposed.

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## Hauteville

> Keep it civil or there will be consequences no matter who you are...per l'amor di Dio stop falling into the same trap over and over again. Control your tempers. Stupidity and agendas can so easily be exposed.


Indeed and i've answered to the materan guy and to him with my photos as well. The only off topic is he, because he has talking about southern Italian phenotypes with contempt.

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## giuseppe rossi

> I think you are from Matera. That city was studied by Sarno and Boattini (but with only 25 samples) and the haplogroup frequency is.
> E-V12 4%
> E-V13 8%
> E-V22 8%
> E-M123 4%
> G1-M285 4%
> G2a 24%
> I2-P215 4%
> J2a 12%
> ...


There is also a hotspot of haplogroup G in Lucera in Apulia.

From Brisighelli et al.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0050794

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## Angela

For those of us actually trying to piece together the migrations that brought various autosomal signatures and yhaplogroups to Italy, and not just in trying to start some sort of war, you might be interested in the discussion on this thread for some possible clues.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...nfield-genomes

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## Mars

I read the controversy here. I think Hauteville probably has a point about that guy. Anyway Angela is right, stupidity and agendas are easily exposed, so don't feed the t-rolls. 
As an italian, I find this obsession towards us childish and boring. *We are basically southern europeans*. Both in the south and in the north. 
Anyways, the more one goes northwards, the more *central european* *influences* pop up. That's quite logical, after all. 
We're neither vikings, either levantines, or africans.
I think y-dna is useful, but under some circumstances, it's misleading. Autosomal is more affordable to track the "continuum" of a population's past, IMHO.
About the italian region, according to both FTDNA and Genographic, sardinians are the highest in "southern european" autosomal, that is EEF in practice: neolithic farmers mixed with some mesolithic hunter gatherers. This component is very high in mainland southern Italy, too, and decreseas progressively going northwards. 
In FTDNA's model, Northern Italy is transitional from the southern european cluster to the western/central, expressing the celtic-italic input (and maybe some later germanic, though medieval longobards would be "scandinavian" in their model, I suppose). 
That's it, folks. That's what we italians are. Some people could be disappointed, for their weird agendas, but they can't change history...

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## anthropico

feduzzonitti is a ***** from Friuli - Venezia Giulia, well known for his provocations against southern italians.
I saw him in an italian page about anthropology and genetics, where he keeps saying southern europeans like italians, albanians and greeks are not european.
I suggest to ban him, he's just a *****. His genetical knowledge is zero, he just knows J2 and E1b1b haplogroups.

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## Maleth

> feduzzonitti is a ***** from Friuli - Venezia Giulia, well known for his provocations against southern italians.
> I saw him in an italian page about anthropology and genetics, where he keeps saying southern europeans like italians, albanians and greeks are not european.
> I suggest to ban him, he's just a *****. His genetical knowledge is zero, he just knows J2 and E1b1b haplogroups.


.....and my impression is that he is not very knowledgeable about those either.

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## LeBrok

> Feduzzo is a North African tr.oll who lives in Italy. He is using a proxy, so his IP is fake. He is actually from Tuscany.
> 
> If any of you is interested, I will send you the link to his facebook profile...


Apparently I was right. Read below. 
Secondly, I don't like your condescending comment about North Africans. You'd better show us your nicer side...





> feduzzonitti is a ***** from Friuli - Venezia Giulia, well known for his provocations against southern italians.
> I saw him in an italian page about anthropology and genetics, where he keeps saying southern europeans like italians, albanians and greeks are not european.
> I suggest to ban him, he's just a *****. His genetical knowledge is zero, he just knows J2 and E1b1b haplogroups.

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## giuseppe rossi

> Apparently I was right. Read below. 
> Secondly, I don't like your condescending comment about North Africans. You'd better show us your nicer side...


This Antropico with 2 posts looks like another aock puppet account to me...

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## anthropico

> This Antropico with 2 posts looks like another aock puppet account to me...


This anthropico with 2 posts is just a member, registered last year, who prefers reading than writing. That's all.
Moderators can prove it, I haven't other accounts here.
Anyway think what you want, I just came here to give an advice, so long as I already saw feduzzonitti tro*ling in other places, writing the same things and posting the same video where the canadian comician makes fun of italians (according to feduzzonitti only southern italians speak in that way, very funny).

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## Hauteville

I know anthropico and feduzzonitti, the first is a regular member, the second is a t.roll.

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## Mars

This is forum is for serious and rational discussions about anthropology, there should not be room for people with weird agendas. I hope moderators will take appropriate measures.

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## Hauteville

> This is forum is for serious and rational discussions about anthropology, there should not be room for people with weird agendas. I hope moderators will take appropriate measures.


Yes especially without certain obsessed people.

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## Angela

Ethnic slurs are unacceptable...period...so is using multiple sock accounts, or attempting to bait members of another ethnic group in order to generate conflict. 

People who post on topic comments or opinions which are unsupported by scientific evidence are, and should be challenged, but it can and must be done in a civil way.

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## Hauteville

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/ital...html#frequency

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## Sile

> I know anthropico and feduzzonitti, the first is a regular member, the second is a t.roll.


Are they the same or are they different?

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## ESpraguer

I've taken the Boattini et al. data and broken it down to test your point. I'd say your claim is basically false. There is definitely more J2 in the south than in the north of Italy. However, the coastal north has ample J2 & there are definitely some J2 hotspots in the coastal north & central-east of the peninsula. Nevertheless, there's simply significantly more of it almost everywhere in the south. There are some places in the central east with fairly high numbers too, but the south definitely takes the J2 cake. I'd call that beyond dispute. Indeed, there is more than twice as much J2 in the south of Italy as the north of Italy. Also, the Boattini study is extensive, more recent & I think overall just a fantastic study. There are a lot of samples & samples from diverse areas (coastal, inland, city, rural, etc) to provide a very thorough breakdown of the y-dna profile of Italy. I'd say it's very representative. Again, there may be some hotspots in certain parts of central Italy, but J2 definitely increases as you head south. Not marginally either. Here are the numbers: North: Cuneo: 2/30 7% Vicenze: 5/40 – 12.5% Genoa: 7/50 14% Como: 4/40 10% Brescia:1/40 3% Treviso: 5/32 15.5% Bologna: 1/30 3% La Spezia: 0/24 0% J2 as a percentage of all haplogroups in North Italy (Como to Bologna): 25/286 = 8.7% Central: Siena: 9/85 10.5% Pistoia: 1/13 8% Macerata: 9/40 22.5% Foligno: 9/37 24% L'aquila: 3/30 10% Campobasso: 3/30 10% J2 as a percentage of all haplogroups in Central Italy (Pistoia to Campbasso): 34/235 = 14.5% South: Benevento: 5//35 14% Matera: 4/25 16% Lecce: 10/39 25% Catanzaro: 8/38 21% Agrigento: 7/45 15.5% Catania: 9/52 17% Syracuse/Siracusa – 11/34 32% J2 as a percentage of all haplogroups in South Italy (Benevento to Siracusa): 54/268 =20% Sardinia: Olbia Tempio 3/40 7.5% Oristano: 3/42 7% J2 in Sardinia: 7.5%

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## New Englander

What type of R1b is most common in the south?

R-PF6570?

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