# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Paleolithic & Mesolithic >  Near East Refuge?

## kirsten elise

Hey wise friends, 
Any new academic word on the possibility of an additional Near Eastern refuge during the last glacial maximum, from which central/northern Europe was re-colonized (see Pala 2012)? I just got my mtDNA done, J2a1a1e (ancestry in southern Sweden and Denmark). I show high eastern Mediterranean ancestry for the region, along with a J haplogroup, so this theory accords with my known ancestry. On a similar note, has J2a1 been found in any mesolithic samples yet?

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## Expredel

The refugia theory is nonsense in my opinion, sounds cool, but I haven't seen strong evidence. There were massive genetic bottlenecks 5000 years ago which make it very difficult to determine what happened 12,000 years ago. The refugia theory was in part based on explaining the spread of R1b, but it's been discredited.

So I would say there were no refugia, just small human populations wherever they could live off of the land and sea, which would have been thousands of locations. When temperatures rose they gradually expanded north. Any bottlenecks are probably artifacts from populations adopting animal husbandry and land cultivation and experiencing a population boom.

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## kirsten elise

Ha! Fascinating. That's super helpful Expredel. Thanks for posting. Is your opinion the general consensus or are there still refugia believers in academia?

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## MOESAN

> The refugia theory is nonsense in my opinion, sounds cool, but I haven't seen strong evidence. There were massive genetic bottlenecks 5000 years ago which make it very difficult to determine what happened 12,000 years ago. The refugia theory was in part based on explaining the spread of R1b, but it's been discredited.
> 
> So I would say there were no refugia, just small human populations wherever they could live off of the land and sea, which would have been thousands of locations. When temperatures rose they gradually expanded north. Any bottlenecks are probably artifacts from populations adopting animal husbandry and land cultivation and experiencing a population boom.


concerning the Late Glacial Maximum we have some works about human settlements in Europe here and there, in different periods with different densities, and yes there have been kind of 'refugiums', compared to less easy-to-live regions, I think. Sure we can argue about more or less researches according to countries, but what we have is rather sensible.

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## berun

delete, Canada case

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## Expredel

> Ha! Fascinating. That's super helpful Expredel. Thanks for posting. Is your opinion the general consensus or are there still refugia believers in academia?


Here's an old map as they used to float around.

Attachment 10036

It seemed credible at the time, I remember believing it myself, but some people have a very hard time unbelieving, including very intelligent academics. The scenario is still possible with different haplogroups, but we know humans have had boats for over 50,000 years, so I would say the theory lost its appeal and academics have a greater focus on the Black Sea region 6000 years ago.

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## Ygorcs

As berun said, I'd also look for more recent admixture events that could've happened. A significantly higher than average Eastern Mediterranean admixture would've resisted dozens of thousands of years only in the extremely scenario of a population with strong common ancestry with those that would become the modern Eastern Mediterraneans and that would've remained almost isolated without virtually any exogamous admixing. That's almost impossible, especially considering the profound transformations that clearly happened in Northern Europe in the last ~6,000 years. Even a very small rate of exchange of DNA with foreigners (say, 1% per generation) outside that small population would've levelled these things after some 3,000 years. 

I think that you must have some "recent" (in the last milennium) ancestor with a high Eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Most probably a Jew, but also at least theoretically a mercenary warrior or a tradesman from other origin, most possibly (considering the context, the last centuries in Northern Europe) a Turkish/Turkic person.

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## kirsten elise

Thanks for the tips, all.

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## halfalp

> Hey wise friends, 
> Any new academic word on the possibility of an additional Near Eastern refuge during the last glacial maximum, from which central/northern Europe was re-colonized (see Pala 2012)? I just got my mtDNA done, J2a1a1e (ancestry in southern Sweden and Denmark). I show high eastern Mediterranean ancestry for the region, along with a J haplogroup, so this theory accords with my known ancestry. On a similar note, has J2a1 been found in any mesolithic samples yet?


I dont really understand your point, even if your maternal line would be come with the neolithic, you would not see any eastern mediterranean ancestry into yours. If you made a test, saying 23andme, it would tell you for exemple if you have a middle-eastern or eastern mediterranean ancestor between the last 300 years or so. J2a1 is only found in modern times in Europe, so there is no quiproquo, you might have a very recent eastern mediterranean ancestor.

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