# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics > Dodecad >  Where do Medieval Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 come from?

## Maciamo

Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0, I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.

*Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)*

Those samples are very heterogeneous in origin and none seem to be local. R1219 looks Austrian, R1220 may come from Southeast France or the Alps, R1221 and R1224 from Aosta Valley, R1283 from the Marche, R1285 and R1287 from Corsica, Tuscany or Romagna, R1285 and R1286 from Germany, R1288 might be from modern Belgium, and R1289 from northern Spain.

Distance to:
R1219_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

8.84970056
German

10.01800878
Bosnian

10.13850088
Hungarians

11.50648513
Mixed_Germanic



Distance to:
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

8.04748586
Italy_Aosta_Valley

9.75453536
Italy_Trentino

10.13612352
French

10.41686613
French

10.79907015
Italy_FriuliVG



Distance to:
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.64912579
Italy_Aosta_Valley

6.95658106
Italy_Trentino

7.90496758
Swiss_Italian

8.53031893
Italy_Piedmont

8.58839543
Italy_FriuliVG



Distance to:
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.24054059
Italy_Aosta_Valley

7.26176700
Italy_Trentino

8.26022472
Swiss_Italian

9.49466166
French

9.70334478
French



Distance to:
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

2.87198851
Italy_Marche

4.18285716
Italy_Lazio

4.48059148
Italy_Romagna

6.91392002
Italy_Tuscany



Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.95855987
France_Corsica

5.72900515
Italy_Romagna

5.73295543
Italy_Marche

6.52601027
Italy_Tuscany



Distance to:
R1286_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

3.95170849
German

5.49035518
Mixed_Germanic

6.10737259
Dutch



Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.49812139
France_Corsica

4.96607873
Italy_Marche

5.31727374
Italy_Romagna

6.44594865
Italy_Lazio

6.54767058
Italy_Tuscany



Distance to:
R1288_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

8.79032991
Mixed_Germanic

9.14831132
French

9.25266988
German

9.48304276
French

9.75376338
Dutch



Distance to:
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

5.07975393
Galicia

5.33575674
Baleares

6.34399716
Cataluna

6.67958831
Extremadura

7.09184743
Spaniards



*Villa Magna (820-1430 CE) in Anagni (Frosinone)*

In contrast to the Cancelleria, most samples here appear to be local or South Italian. The exceptions are R55 and R61 (both North Italian), R62 (French/Belgian), and R63 (Spanish). 

Distance to:
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.92471681
Italy_Abruzzo

4.93031297
Italy_Campania

6.18603791
Italy_Sicily

6.22434237
Italy_Marche



Distance to:
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.15041274
Italy_Calabria

3.51527325
Italy_Campania

4.07746796
Italy_Sicily

4.36937066
Greek_Crete



Distance to:
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.52721698
Italy_Abruzzo

2.61053788
Italy_Apulia

3.75606789
Italy_Campania

3.91256502
Italy_Sicily



Distance to:
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.29520807
Italy_Piedmont

2.87308736
Italy_Veneto

2.87533233
Italy_FriuliVG

4.77416171
Italy_Trentino



Distance to:
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.25696832
Italy_Campania

3.44506251
Italy_Abruzzo

3.51524181
Italy_Sicily

4.83193995
Italy_Calabria



Distance to:
R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

10.70661252
Italy_Abruzzo

11.03871677
Italy_Apulia

11.78143879
Greek

11.98106694
Italy_Sicily

11.99134796
Italy_Campania



Distance to:
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.41588144
Italy_Campania

4.75263800
Italy_Apulia

4.96906024
Italy_Abruzzo

5.34821138
Italy_Sicily

5.46218015
Italy_Calabria



Distance to:
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.72085286
Italy_Campania

4.38579362
Italy_Abruzzo

4.68549549
Italy_Apulia

5.05756513
Italy_Sicily



Distance to:
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.05517053
Italy_Apulia

4.43348482
Italy_Abruzzo

5.18685107
Italy_Lazio

6.09799295
Italy_Marche



Distance to:
R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

6.24222877
Italy_Trentino

6.74439441
Italy_FriuliVG

6.96378579
Swiss_Italian

7.79813033
Italy_Aosta_Valley



Distance to:
R62___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

8.76040524
French

8.84359655
Mixed_Germanic

9.22279784
French

10.40246125
German

10.65894929
Dutch



Distance to:
R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.79568805
Galicia

6.83400322
Baleares

7.74857406
Extremadura

7.75888523
Portuguese



Distance to:
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.94673853
Italy_Sicily

4.12297053
Italy_Campania

4.22461876
Italy_Abruzzo

4.40196184
Italy_Apulia



Distance to:
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

1.57936886
Italy_Campania

3.26591345
Italy_Calabria

3.46294744
Italy_Sicily

4.43626867
Italy_Abruzzo

4.94872186
Italy_Apulia



Distance to:
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.11799546
Italy_Abruzzo

3.66645142
Italy_Campania

4.80833734
Italy_Apulia

5.40362887
Italy_Sicily




*Tivoli Palazzo Cianti(1600-1700 CE)*

All samples appear to be relatively local.

Distance to:
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

4.00665172
Italy_Marche

4.09387954
Italy_Abruzzo

4.14478033
Italy_Lazio

5.55050881
Italy_Apulia



Distance to:
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

5.45594025
Italy_Lazio

5.66019272
Italy_Abruzzo

6.13176304
Italy_Marche

6.92250590
Italy_Apulia



Distance to:
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

1.58242335
Italy_Abruzzo

2.75668750
Italy_Campania

3.45154284
Italy_Apulia

3.51985014
Italy_Sicily

----------


## Maciamo

Here are now the samples for the Late Antiquity.


*Mausoleum of Augustus, Rome (300-700 CE)*

Very mixed. One German, one North Italian, one Calabrian, one Sicilian and one Jew.

Distance to:
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

3.97577175
Italy_Calabria

6.01773213
Sephardic_Jews

6.37718943
Italy_Sicily

6.43644203
Italy_Campania

6.67999251
Greek_Crete



Distance to:
R31___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

5.19241755
German

5.93676680
Mixed_Germanic

6.03682036
Dutch



Distance to:
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

6.19178205
Italy_Sicily

6.71056525
Italy_Campania

6.96393062
Italy_Abruzzo

7.22982165
Italy_Calabria



Distance to:
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

2.98170029
Italy_Veneto

4.01654299
Italy_Lombardy

4.11704240
Italy_Piedmont

4.61137897
Italy_FriuliVG

4.63166321
Italy_Liguria

5.08936268
Swiss_Italian



Distance to:
R34___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

4.68439964
Sephardic_Jews

5.40817899
Greek_Crete

7.04337791
Italy_Calabria

7.63757160
Ashkenazy_Jews




*Crypta Balbi, Rome (400-600 CE)*

Four out of seven samples are North Italians. One appears West German or Belgian. One from Abruzzo/Campania. R104 doesn't match any modern population but is closest to population with high European Neolithic Farmer ancestry.

Distance to:
R104__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

13.32309273
Sardinian

17.44959025
Andalucia

18.88248924
Murcia



Distance to:
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

5.18126337
Italy_Piedmont

5.85537531
Italy_Trentino

6.00541827
Italy_Aosta_Valley

6.03021194
Italy_FriuliVG

6.03941873
Italy_Veneto



Distance to:
R106__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

9.86028397
Mixed_Germanic

10.24173813
German

11.79750821
Dutch

11.91622004
French



Distance to:
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

5.46984823
Italy_Abruzzo

5.80777978
Italy_Campania

6.29398824
Italy_Apulia

6.79053054
Italy_Sicily



Distance to:
R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

7.17376279
Italy_Aosta_Valley

7.44007124
Italy_Trentino

8.15129536
Italy_FriuliVG

9.07077794
Swiss_Italian



Distance to:
R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

4.83398785
Italy_Aosta_Valley

6.22388243
Swiss_Italian

6.50759556
Italy_Trentino

8.28935716
Italy_Piedmont



Distance to:
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

5.16933976
Italy_Lombardy

5.22525239
Swiss_Italian

5.84723782
Italy_Piedmont

6.07875337
Italy_Aosta_Valley

6.56645110
Italy_Trentino




*Celio, Rome (400-600 CE)*

One local from Lazio and one South Italian.

Distance to:
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio

2.78705669
Italy_Sicily

3.25545174
Italy_Campania

4.33982864
Italy_Calabria

4.38907504
Italy_Abruzzo



Distance to:
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

2.67098933
Italy_Lazio

2.88050343
Italy_Romagna

3.12280611
Italy_Marche



*S. Ercolano Necropolis, Ostia (400-600 CE)*

All from Lazio, Marche, Abruzzo or Campania.

Distance to:
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

4.56126364
Italy_Campania

5.08336945
Italy_Sicily

5.09341415
Italy_Abruzzo

6.27776433
Italy_Calabria



Distance to:
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

5.05516350
Italy_Marche

6.39966984
Italy_Lazio

7.09165002
Italy_Romagna



Distance to:
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

2.72502807
Italy_Marche

3.86621831
Italy_Lazio

4.25041174
Italy_Romagna



Distance to:
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

3.87610681
Italy_Lazio

3.97489115
Italy_Abruzzo

4.50175943
Italy_Marche

5.13760917
Italy_Apulia



Distance to:
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

2.95552127
Italy_Campania

3.40354781
Italy_Abruzzo

3.44436133
Italy_Sicily

5.26539754
Italy_Calabria

----------


## Angela

All of the samples to which I get reasonable hits are the ones which could be labeled Central Italian(possibly mostly "local") or Northern Italian, so it all makes sense.

Distance to:
Angela

6.16793320
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

6.20598904
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

6.88215809
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

9.01179227
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.10498215
R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima

9.25520934
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

9.40529638
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

9.46954592
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

9.80181106
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

9.85873217
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

10.29759195
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

10.76144972
R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia

10.89582948
R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica

10.91793937
R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia

11.16737659
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

11.21531542
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

12.66933700
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

12.94033230
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

13.02701424
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

13.18377791
R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea

13.22393663
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

13.23101281
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

13.78290245
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

13.98591792
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche



The rest are probably merchants, pilgrims or other travelers.

----------


## Salento

I’m more Medieval than Modern:

Distance to:
LUPIAE

2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.39329162
Italy_Apulia




Rs Top 10
Distance to:
LUPIAE

2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.62665106
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.66386106
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.74364838
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

4.88130106
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

4.90240757
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.04985148
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

5.10057840
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.45748110
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio

----------


## torzio

@Maciano

For your records, if you want 

below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female 
born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )

using your method


Distance to:
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

3.19263925
Italy_Veneto

4.59394558
Italy_FriuliVG

4.79243154
Italy_Piedmont

5.36235312
Italy_Emilia

5.41730100
Italy_Liguria

5.48928753
Italy_Lombardy

6.14541374
Italy_Tuscany

6.75545261
Italy_Trentino

6.93031835
Swiss_Italian

7.40857611
Italy_Romagna

10.03419075
Italy_Lazio

10.25871769
Italy_Aosta_Valley

10.51680265
Italy_Marche

10.77139620
France_Corsica

15.87357841
Italy_Abruzzo

16.98590263
Italy_Apulia

18.81695528
Italy_Campania

19.20153028
Italy_Sicily

22.17265551
Italy_Calabria




interesting is 

*Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.4220% / 2.42202404 | ADC: 0.5x* 
92.4
Italy_Veneto



7.6
Italy_Apulia


Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.2913% / 2.29129837 | ADC: 0.25x


84.8
Italy_Veneto



10.6
Italy_Apulia



4.6
Italy_FriuliVG


Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.2777% / 2.27773577


79.6
Italy_Veneto



11.8
Italy_Apulia



8.6
Italy_FriuliVG





It would mean that the Apulian "illyrians" came to Apulia ( landing firstly in Foggia lands ) via what Italian scholars state, from the Iapodes Illyrians that lived next to Liburnians ( most likely shipped by Liburnian navy which was the only fleet from modern Corfu to Trieste in the early iron age )

----------


## Pax Augusta

> @Maciano
> 
> For your records, if you want 
> 
> below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female 
> born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )



Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0, I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.
> 
> *Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)*



Rome was the center of Christianity, it is not so strange that there were many foreigners. Not only pilgrims, but also friars, priests, bishops etc. from all over Europe and Italy.

For example, the Palazzo della Cancelleria was part of the Vatican institutions.

----------


## torzio

> Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?


my error, not Nis , but Nin

A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:

Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> my error, not Nis , but Nin
> 
> A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.



Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence. 


This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.

----------


## torzio

> Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence. 
> 
> 
> This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.


I think it was via sizzi attachment

----------


## torzio

> I think it was via sizzi attachment


on a lap top now
a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version

Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast

hope you do not think that only etruscans can have Villanovan or proto-villanovan

----------


## Pax Augusta

> on a lap top now
> a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version
> 
> Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
> even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast


 Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.

Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.

----------


## torzio

> Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.
> 
> Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.


As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015



Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy

10.47190348
Swiss_Italian

10.59439172
France_Corsica

10.67138183
Italy_Liguria

11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont

11.45354578
Italy_Emilia

12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley

12.35516815
Italy_Trentino

12.48426575
Italy_Veneto

12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany

15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG

15.18462380
Italy_Romagna

17.92780238
Italy_Marche

18.70868739
Italy_Lazio

23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo

25.60013410
Italy_Campania

26.16214227
Italy_Apulia

26.41047302
Italy_Sicily

28.64339688
Italy_Calabria






*Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1764% / 8.17643111 | ADC: 0.5x* 
56.6
France_Corsica



33.6
Italy_Aosta_Valley



9.8
Swiss_Italian


Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1328% / 8.13276039 | ADC: 0.25x


57.6
France_Corsica



42.4
Italy_Aosta_Valley


Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1324% / 8.13237277


57.0
France_Corsica



43.0
Italy_Aosta_Valley





At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix

----------


## HYGILI4K

My closest match is R110

3.20856666
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

3.99085204
R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia

6.33544000
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

7.06787097
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

7.72353546
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

7.81421781
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

8.08064973
R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

8.43316074
R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima

8.48432083
R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia

8.72169708
R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

8.97703737
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

9.39635036
R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica

9.42583683
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

10.31083411
R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea

10.42913707
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

10.55089570
R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella

10.67592619
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

11.06633634
R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

12.32318546
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

12.76021160
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

12.80834103
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

13.01039584
R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

13.18746754
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

13.89386195
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

14.11668871
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

----------


## Pax Augusta

> As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix


It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.


Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.

----------


## Angela

> As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015
> 
> 
> 
> Distance to:
> R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
> 
> 9.24585840
> Italy_Lombardy
> ...


Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians. 

This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???

The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.

My match with it:

9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



To reiterate for those who have forgotten, these "modern" results are from a list mistakenly claimed to be from an academic paper but actually the product of samples compiled by this "Sizzi".

Results should be taken with a huge grain of salt. 

Using the original Dodecad:
Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

5.24512154
North_Italian

8.03976368
N_Italian

8.21257572
Baleares

10.85773457
Galicia

11.64063572
Murcia

12.06155048
Extremadura

12.15138675
Andalucia

12.49035628
TSI30

12.74874111
Castilla_Y_Leon

12.84337962
Spaniards

13.02558636
Portuguese

14.29485922
Spanish

14.48704249
Cataluna

14.48716673
Tuscan

14.59809577
Canarias

15.02812031
Castilla_La_Mancha

15.03589040
Valencia

15.10769340
Cantabria

15.97660790
Aragon

16.59626464
O_Italian

17.91761982
C_Italian

20.96794697
French

21.55915815
French

25.93064596
Greek

26.20529908
Sicilian


9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



As usual, the original dodecad result is congruent with the findings of the academic paper, i.e. Etruscans are between Northern Italians and Iberians.

----------


## torzio

> Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians. 
> 
> This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???
> 
> The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.
> 
> My match with it:
> 
> 9.61917356
> ...


to test yout theory

here is R1 with original dodecad

Distance to:
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

3.19263925
Italy_Veneto

4.59394558
Italy_FriuliVG

4.79243154
Italy_Piedmont

5.36235312
Italy_Emilia

5.41730100
Italy_Liguria

5.48928753
Italy_Lombardy

6.14541374
Italy_Tuscany

6.75545261
Italy_Trentino

6.93031835
Swiss_Italian

7.40857611
Italy_Romagna

7.51609606
Albanian_North

7.76251248
Albanian_Kosovo

10.03419075
Italy_Lazio

10.25871769
Italy_Aosta_Valley

10.51680265
Italy_Marche

10.77139620
France_Corsica

15.04893352
Bulgarians

15.06029880
Romanians

15.41974708
Bulgarian

15.87357841
Italy_Abruzzo

16.83403101
Greek

16.98590263
Italy_Apulia

18.35866553
Baleares

18.81695528
Italy_Campania

19.20153028
Italy_Sicily




similar to the above


92.6
Italy_Veneto
5.2
Albanian_Kosovo
2.2
Albanian_North
Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 1.7286% / 1.72862196 | ADC: 0.5x
80.8
Italy_Veneto
9.6
Albanian_North
8.4
Albanian_Kosovo
0.6
Italy_Tuscany
0.6
Nganassan
Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 0.9911% / 0.99106208 | ADC: 0.25x
83.6
Italy_Veneto
10.6
Albanian_North
3.8
Greek



*Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 3.1926% / 3.19263925 | ADC: 2x* 
100.0
Italy_Veneto






which is better post #5 or this for sample R1 ?

----------


## bigsnake49

> I’m more Medieval than Modern:
> 
> Distance to:
> LUPIAE
> 
> 2.49000000
> R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
> 
> 2.78107893
> ...


Damn Salento go back to your own time and quit messing around with time travel! :Grin:

----------


## torzio

if I leave in the Sardinians, Spanish, french and Albanians ....the results for R1015 are

Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy

10.47190348
Swiss_Italian

10.59439172
France_Corsica

10.67138183
Italy_Liguria

11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont

11.45354578
Italy_Emilia

12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley

12.35516815
Italy_Trentino

12.48426575
Italy_Veneto

12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany

12.84337962
Spaniards

14.29485922
Spanish

15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG

15.18462380
Italy_Romagna

17.92780238
Italy_Marche

18.70868739
Italy_Lazio

20.58547789
Albanian_North

20.71231035
Albanian_Kosovo

20.96794697
French

21.55915815
French

23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo

25.60013410
Italy_Campania

25.93064596
Greek

26.16214227
Italy_Apulia

26.41047302
Italy_Sicily




51.2
Italy_Lombardy
28.4
Spaniards
20.4
France_Corsica
Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 3.8825% / 3.88254771 | ADC: 0.5x
57.0
Italy_Lombardy
23.6
Spaniards
11.0
France_Corsica
8.4
Sardinian
Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 2.1920% / 2.19198126 | ADC: 0.25x
67.4
Swiss_Italian
20.6
Sardinian
8.2
France_Corsica
3.8
Spanish

----------


## Duarte

If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded. 

https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/

The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

“Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.

----------


## torzio

> It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.
> 
> 
> Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.


I agree the term gallic-ligurian is a bit young

it should be etruscan and or greek for Corsica at that time ..............unsure when the etruscans kicked the greeks out of corsica and took over their olive groves

using dodecad 12 only markers 

and these as the source

Italy_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.014,0.0922,37.89,23.225,0 .2477,0.053,7.89,0.048,23.39,0
Italy_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.1801,37.614,22.757,0.14 ,0.107,7.396,0.25,24.22,0.055
Italy_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0,8 .99,0,27.19,0
Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111

we find that if that sample was truly central italian and heading into southern italian .............then its a migrant , because the result is beyond 5.000 

If you disagree , then dodecad numbers are also in error


Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

10.67138183
Italy_Liguria

11.45354578
Italy_Emilia

12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany

15.18462380
Italy_Romagna

17.92780238
Italy_Marche

18.70868739
Italy_Lazio

23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo

25.60013410
Italy_Campania






100.0
Italy_Liguria

----------


## torzio

using only these 

Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111
Italy_Apulia,7.382,0.32,2.812,0.336,26.188,17.186, 0.274,0.266,11.314,0.412,33.356,0.154
Italy_Sicily,7.313,0.482,4.594,0.101,27.216,13.451 ,0.249,0.653,12.095,0.047,33.163,0.635
Italy_Calabria,7.006,0.1308,4.1825,0.0759,27.005,1 1.44083,0.2616,0.5983,13.52416,0.22,35.4525,0.0975


Again ....although Tuscany .......a number of 12.5 is too far


Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany

17.92780238
Italy_Marche

18.70868739
Italy_Lazio

23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo

25.60013410
Italy_Campania

26.16214227
Italy_Apulia

26.41047302
Italy_Sicily

28.64339688
Italy_Calabria

----------


## torzio

and for north italy

Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy

10.47190348
Swiss_Italian

10.67138183
Italy_Liguria

11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont

11.45354578
Italy_Emilia

12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley

12.35516815
Italy_Trentino

12.48426575
Italy_Veneto

15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG

----------


## Salento

@Duarte

*I just stopped using it,
and everyone should do the same !!!*

----------


## Angela

> If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded. 
> 
> https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/
> 
> The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:
> 
> “Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”
> 
> Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.


Believing that dna gives us the ability to distinguish people of different "races" or what are now called breeding populations doesn't make you a racist, imo. That's what we're doing every day. Are we all racists then? From the little I know of him I think the term might fit, but not for that reason.

In terms of the samples, when dealing with the work product of anyone with an obvious agenda, it behooves one to be cautious because of the possibility that this bias would lead to distortion of the data. That has been the cause of my hesitancy about some of Eurogenes' results. When it's academic samples and there's some degree of transparency there's less concern.

I don't know the source of those samples, so that's one area of concern; the other concern is whether someone like this is to be trusted choosing samples, if it is indeed his work. 

I'm going to go back to using the original Dodecad. 

For example, these are my closest Medieval matches:
6.16793320
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

6.20598904
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


These are the closest modern populations according to the original dodecad:
Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

3.57624104
Tuscan

3.81152201
TSI30

4.75531282
C_Italian

6.83702421
O_Italian

10.65236593
N_Italian

10.91843395
North_Italian

12.61605723
S_Italian_Sicilian

12.63765010
Sicilian

13.09491886
Greek

16.62573006
Ashkenazi

17.11678124
Ashkenazy_Jews

20.15269461
Sephardic_Jews

20.66370973
Baleares

20.77912173
Morocco_Jews

22.13513723
Bulgarians

22.51428213
Bulgarian

22.57344679
Galicia

22.99541041
Romanians

23.18739097
Extremadura

23.21290374
Murcia

23.62890391
Andalucia

23.71828198
Canarias

23.88277203
Portuguese

25.20537443
Castilla_Y_Leon

25.56972624
Spaniards



Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.18359893
C_Italian

4.39795407
TSI30

4.67375652
Tuscan

6.63923188
O_Italian

10.89065655
N_Italian

11.33756147
North_Italian

11.94195545
Sicilian

12.25031428
S_Italian_Sicilian

13.05106126
Greek

16.05808830
Ashkenazi

16.61078866
Ashkenazy_Jews

19.42127699
Sephardic_Jews

19.69553757
Morocco_Jews

20.62295323
Baleares

22.06728801
Bulgarians

22.38915362
Bulgarian

22.39324452
Galicia

22.69921144
Canarias

22.83699192
Extremadura

22.95221558
Murcia

22.99935216
Romanians

23.42924455
Portuguese

23.44488430
Andalucia

24.96409822
Castilla_Y_Leon

25.63061061
Spaniards



These are the results using the "updated" list of K12b samples:
Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.95855987
France_Corsica

5.72900515
Italy_Romagna

5.73295543
Italy_Marche

6.52601027
Italy_Tuscany

7.24070466
Italy_Lazio

7.99930566
Italy_Emilia

8.57943659
Italy_Liguria

10.37018436
Italy_Abruzzo

10.86251230
Italy_Lombardy

11.76210041
Italy_Campania

12.19792774
Italy_Piedmont

12.42161332
Italy_Veneto

12.83907707
Albanian_Kosovo

12.91294962
Italy_Apulia

13.07584127
Italy_Sicily

13.09491886
Greek

13.69630607
Albanian_North

14.63272210
Italy_FriuliVG

14.85030850
Swiss_Italian

14.95477500
Italy_Calabria

15.92765394
Italy_Trentino

16.62573006
Ashkenazi

17.11678124
Ashkenazy_Jews

18.65887850
Italy_Aosta_Valley

18.94861736
Greek_Crete



Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

4.49812139
France_Corsica

4.96607873
Italy_Marche

5.31727374
Italy_Romagna

6.44594865
Italy_Lazio

6.54767058
Italy_Tuscany

8.04215637
Italy_Emilia

8.47331258
Italy_Liguria

9.53350878
Italy_Abruzzo

11.02661950
Italy_Lombardy

11.16114448
Italy_Campania

12.10129167
Italy_Piedmont

12.10660832
Italy_Sicily

12.24339201
Italy_Apulia

12.35617683
Italy_Veneto

12.73767640
Albanian_Kosovo

13.05106126
Greek

13.52740552
Albanian_North

14.22096119
Italy_Calabria

14.57645828
Italy_FriuliVG

14.99245018
Swiss_Italian

16.04054675
Italy_Trentino

16.05808830
Ashkenazi

16.61078866
Ashkenazy_Jews

18.48370093
Greek_Crete

18.66171417
Italy_Aosta_Valley



The fits aren't as good using the updated samples, and they don't make as much sense to me for samples all from Rome.

Only problem, of course, is that the original dodecad is missing samples from certain areas.

----------


## torzio

> If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded. 
> 
> https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/0...omico-europeo/
> 
> The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:
> 
> “Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”
> 
> Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.



can you link me to his K12 data .................as far as I can see he only has K13 and K15 
Which means the K12 we have been using has always been dodecad


Only found this
https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2018/0...nale-italiano/
which is k13

----------


## torzio

Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13

Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see

So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is

----------


## torzio

> Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13
> 
> Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see
> 
> So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is


https://yourdnaportal.com/yourgeneticancestry

they do not have K12b ............they do have everything else

----------


## Palermo Trapani

I went back and ran original Dodecad12 spreadsheet. My top 50 scores. I get similar results to the ones with the Dodecad 12B, except now my South Italian_Siclian distance is 6.18. Thus, I am closer distance wise to 21 Romans starting with R437 (Iron Age) up to Medieval Roman R1290. My closest match is Imperial Roman R131. With the Dodecad 12B Update, My Sicilian score was 4.1 and had 2 other scores of less than that I believe. So as some others have noted, the Dodecad12B update are more accurate. As an FYI, I know nothing about this Sazzi fellow and his blog. Never heard of it till it was mentioned here. But I think if he is the one who did the Dodecad 12B updated spreadsheet, it is more accurate than the original, at least in my particular case.

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani

2.74320980
R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

3.34371051
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.96989924
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.16199471
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.28897424
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

4.28984848
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

4.75169443
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

4.89823438
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

4.99327548
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.07506650
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.11293458
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata

5.11761663
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

5.15501697
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

5.29457269
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

5.50790341
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.57297048
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.59843728
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio

5.77488528
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.87176294
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

6.10313034
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

6.12587137
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

6.18146423
S_Italian_Sicilian

6.46333505
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

6.62921564
R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese

6.70280538
R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina

7.18347409
R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro

7.19658252
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

7.27409788
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

7.30593594
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

7.53768532
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

7.64537769
C_Italian

7.73356321
R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

8.48495728
R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

8.50541004
R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro

8.60780460
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

9.21462425
R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

9.43943854
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

9.50429903
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

9.50891687
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.53776703
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.59932289
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

9.80881746
R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce

9.86738060
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

9.96273557
R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

10.73444922
R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo

10.83915587
Tuscan

11.27436473
R69___Imperial_Era__ANAS

11.66221677
R1548_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo

11.85414274
R133__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro

12.26351907
R123__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Here is my top 50 using K12B updated spreadsheet. I included Roman sources that Jovialis provided and the Italian reference samples and ran top 50. So I still get Sicily at around 6 (surprising) but do get scores for Campania and Abruzzo < 5 (My ancestors are not from there btw, although my family name does seem to populate very heavy in Campania vs Sicilia). So I think the results are reasonably consistent but the K12B updates I think provide better estimates as the variables for the Italian populations are better samples it seems to me. Post 29 above by me is the same run using K12B original data.

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani

2.74320980
R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

3.34371051
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.96989924
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.16199471
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

4.28897424
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

4.28984848
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

4.43471600
Italy_Campania

4.75169443
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

4.89823438
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

4.97427660
Italy_Abruzzo

4.99327548
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.07506650
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.11293458
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata

5.11761663
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

5.15501697
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

5.29457269
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

5.50790341
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.57297048
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.59843728
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio

5.77488528
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

5.87176294
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

6.06587380
Italy_Sicily

6.10313034
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

6.12587137
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

6.46333505
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

6.62921564
R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese

6.70280538
R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina

6.82817311
Italy_Apulia

7.18347409
R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro

7.18656426
Italy_Calabria

7.19658252
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

7.27409788
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

7.29754740
Italy_Marche

7.30593594
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

7.53768532
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

7.73356321
R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

8.03091925
Italy_Lazio

8.48495728
R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

8.50541004
R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro

8.60780460
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

9.21462425
R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

9.43943854
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

9.50429903
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

9.50891687
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.53776703
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.59932289
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

9.80881746
R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce

9.86738060
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

9.96273557
R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

10.44658317
Italy_Romagna

----------


## Johane Derite

This is mine. Not so close to any of them:


Distance to:
JD

9.96847531
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

9.99933998
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

10.31137721
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

10.58852209
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

10.68546209
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio

10.82951984
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

10.87670906
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

11.09423274
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

11.38183201
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

11.46652519
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

11.64696956
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

11.65281940
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

11.94868194
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

12.21046273
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

12.29796731
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche

12.32352628
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

12.37065883
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

12.42960981
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

12.48480276
R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo

12.59679721
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

12.63704475
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

13.50418824
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis

13.81486156
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

14.10271960
R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

14.14472340
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

----------


## Hawk

Neither me, it makes sense since how it looks so far i am the least Italian shifted Albanian.

----------


## Dibran

I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.

----------


## Hawk

> I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.


You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.

IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.

----------


## Dibran

> You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.
> 
> IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.


I agree. An example of how autosomal calculators can be flawed is a half Polish and Half Lebanese coming out Romanian in admixture calculators. I think this is exactly what happens in these autosomal calculators. People take the results too literally. 

MyHeritage has a cool clustering feature that creates DNA match clusters, not only on who you match, but your matches also matching you and each other. I am not sure if it is as accurate as IBD but my break down was fairly accurate I thought.

----------


## Angela

Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.

For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.

----------


## Dibran

> Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.
> 
> For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.


I never said these other methods are not without flaws. Nothing is perfect. I am not privy to the personal beliefs of the guy who created the program. Can we try to judge the science and its accuracy whilst not using the creators personal beliefs to judge the efficacy of the G25 coordinates or IBD?

Is he including something in his program that somehow negates its efficacy as a tool?

I am not as vested in this as others given my schedule, however, almost everyone agrees G25 and IBD are far more useful for real relatedness.

If Gedmatch admixture calculators are more accurate can you explain why mixing a Pole with a Lebanese person would produce a "Romanian Shifted" child? Should he believe he is actually Romanian, or acknowledge the flaws in the tool being used and therefore use other tools that may accurately gauge their ancestry? If I were to listen to half of these calculators, I am Greco-Italian. Yet, IBD and autocluster was more accurate in my case.

Maybe everyone else is different based on the calculator etc.

----------


## Angela

Oh, please. 

I suggest you start looking all these things up in Coop's new book.

All pop gen tools have their benefits and minuses. To think that IBD is the complete answer shows a complete misunderstanding of the science. All of them are subject to manipulation in numerous ways, one of which is the selective inclusion of certain samples and not others. There are many other ways.

When you get a witness on the stand, the first thing you do is test their credibility. If you can show the witness is a known liar and has a bias against the defendant, for example, he's an impeached witness whose testimony should be submitted to the strongest possible scrutiny.

Does that mean it's impossible the person's testimony is true? No, it doesn't, but it means the jury are fools if they don't take that into account. 

Another huge red flag is when information for each and every sample, and the runs for each and every analysis run are not provided. Providing them is called transparency, and is why an academic paper or amateur programs which provide them are more to be trusted than those which don't. 

Anyone who hasn't figured out that his tools are skewed toward East Europeans is probably in the market for the Brooklyn Bridge at a really great price.

The level of naiete out there about this and thousands of other sources of "information" floating around on the internet is truly unbelievable.

----------


## Carlos

Distance to:
Carlos

16.42307736
Italy_Tuscany

22.35444828
Italy_Marche

22.46340232
Italy_Lazio

28.15513327
Italy_Abruzzo

30.13375297
Italy_Apulia

30.77117915
Italy_Campania

30.89016454
Italy_Sicily

33.77888164
Italy_Calabria

----------


## Carlos

Whit MTA




R105 PCA



Comparison of my own kit (gray) with the R105 sample (white)
Green Match



The result with modern populations that has been published in the sample thread R105

Perhaps now it is in a hard process and everyone puts their good intentions and after all the only thing we look for specialists and amateurs is that the results will one day have a quality of excellence.
According to MTA, it has patented its calculation system and says not to use the K calculators


At the moment between these two results of the R105 sample I am left with the MTA version

----------


## Angela

Until mta releases a white paper completely laying bare their "patented" algorithm, I'll reserve judgment.

For everyone's information, Dienekes dumped all the data for his calculator ten years ago. That's one of the reasons I trust it; he always practised complete transparency. It's also, of course, why there are so many copies around.

It's also true that for the years he was active, I never caught him in a lie. You might disagree here and there but the analysis was honest, and I'm the most skeptical person you can imagine.

----------


## Jovialis

> You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.
> 
> IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.


G25 has been shown to falsely model ancient samples, when using ultimate source populations in relation to the southern Arc paper. What basis can you provide that "it is more accurate"?

While Dodecad is also not optimal for modeling ultimate source populations, it is indeed an effective tool for comparing modern populations, and aDNA that falls within the range of modern genetic continuum. Even if it is 10 years old, new does not always mean better. That is an _appeal to novelty_ fallacy argumentum ad novitatem.

----------


## Jovialis

Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti

1.73254149
Apulia:Pu45

1.88925911
Apulia:cera2

1.90735419
Apulia:ALP583

2.13323698
Apulia:PuG58_Martano_LE_Apulia

2.54458248
Campania:NaN238DM



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R970_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti

3.51796816
Apulia::PuG74_Zollino_LE_Apulia

4.81255649
Abruzzo:Alp140

4.82554660
Apulia:cera1

5.02570393
Umbria:PG06

5.04448213
Latium:VT035_Bolsena_VT_Northern_Latium



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R969_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti

1.79050272
Marche:MarACO100D

2.32198191
Abruzzo:ALP161

2.44311277
ITS:ITS5

2.78680821
Molise:PG27

2.82345533
Molise:PG26_Molise



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna

1.81342218
Basilicata:PG25

2.06397674
Apulia:Pu7

2.26141549
Campania:NaN128LA

2.34503731
Basilicata:PG20

2.34814821
Apulia:PuG58_Martano_LE_Apulia



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna

2.73662201
ITS:ITS2

2.83790416
Sicily:W-Sicily:5a

2.83790416
Sicily:W-Sicily:5a

3.45208633
Abruzzo:Alp503

3.46287453
Campania:NaN293SF



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna

3.06066986
Abruzzo:Alp140

3.10943725
Basilicata:PG21

3.13847097
Marche:MarABY030D

3.95698117
Abruzzo:ALP161

4.09664497
Apulia::PuG74_Zollino_LE_Apulia



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna

2.68985130
Apulia:ALP379

2.73181259
Abruzzo:ALP205

3.07478455
Basilicata:PG19

3.14485294
Apulia:GS47

3.19050153
Campania:NaN43TC



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna

1.95397032
Abruzzo:ALP205

2.25151060
Apulia:GS47

2.57252794
Campania:NaN129RT_Portici_NA_Campania

2.65700960
Basilicata:PG20

2.99008361
Basilicata:PG25



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna

1.66937114
Abruzzo:ALP205

1.71067238
Campania:NaN289RM

1.81218101
Basilicata:PG25

1.85922027
Apulia:ALP379

1.88345427
Apulia:PuG37_Soleto_LE_Apulia



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna

1.95882618
Apulia:PuG58_Martano_LE_Apulia

2.03612377
Campania:NaN128LA

2.10983412
Campania:NaN43TC

2.26808289
Campania:NaN212CR

2.37602609
Sicily:Ag-Sicily:5



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna

2.10430511
ITS:ITS2

2.43737564
Apulia:PuG37_Soleto_LE_Apulia

2.59262415
Abruzzo:Alp616

2.97223821
Basilicata:PG18

2.97370140
Molise:PG26_Molise



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna

1.54712637
Apulia:Pu7

2.12442934
Apulia:PuG28_Martano_LE_Apulia

2.14811545
Piedmont_o:ItalyPiedmont52

2.48975902
Basilicata:PG16

2.69814751
Campania:NaN77FAM



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R52_Villa_Magna

3.21235116
Campania:NaN212CR

3.37253614
Latium:NOR28

3.46594864
Apulia:PuG17_Soleto_LE_Apulia

3.54269671
Abruzzo:Alp380

3.68176588
Campania:NaN43TC



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna

1.78042130
Campania:NaN238DM

2.21366212
Campania:NaN212CR

2.40659511
Molise:PG27

2.65124499
Basilicata:PG19

2.70627050
Molise:PG26_Molise



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1287_Cancelleria

2.68747093
Tuscany:TSI_NA20787_SG

3.15582002
Corsica:CorsicaS29908

3.23473337
Tuscany:TSI_NA20529_SG

3.25851193
Corsica:Corsica03708

3.42490876
Tuscany:TSI_NA20800_SG



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1285_Cancelleria

2.92849791
Tuscany:TSI_NA20588_SG

2.98464403
Tuscan_HGDP:HGDP01169

3.15456812
Tuscany:TSI_NA20800_SG

3.44833293
Corsica:corsica29008

3.52309523
Corsica:CorsicaS03308



Distance to:
C6:Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria

1.85178292
Latium:PG28

2.37646797
Umbria:PG723_Perugia_Montegrillo_PG_Umbria

2.45615553
Tuscany:TSI_NA20786_SG

2.48781028
Tuscany:TSI_NA20797_SG

2.52774603
Tuscany:TSI_NA20800_SG



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R63_Villa_Magna

5.73128258
Corsica_o:CorsicaS00708

9.25450701
Veneto:ALP108_Treviso_TV_Veneto

9.45739922
N_Italy_HGDP:HGDP01173

9.53348834
Veneto:Alp100

9.54760179
N_Italy_HGDP:HGDP01154



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R62_Villa_Magna

3.52069595
Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308

8.62252863
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220

9.61998441
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071

9.76914531
Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley

10.45639517
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP435



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R61_Villa_Magna

4.29429855
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129

5.08734705
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081

5.11820281
Veneto:ALP250

5.15351336
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071

5.48678412
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R55_Villa_Magna

1.45340978
Veneto:ALP022

2.22946182
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

2.65388395
Veneto:KF1803109

2.86975609
Lombardy:ALP288

2.92085604
Piedmont:ALP277_Domodossola_VB_Piedmont



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1289_Cancelleria

6.79966911
Corsica_o:CorsicaS00708

10.13478663
N_Italy_HGDP:HGDP01171

10.16738413
N_Italy_HGDP:HGDP01153

10.45593133
N_Italy_HGDP:HGDP01173

11.09651297
Veneto:ALP108_Treviso_TV_Veneto



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1288_Cancelleria

5.36274184
Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308

10.60990575
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220

10.88283051
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP414

11.31998233
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071

11.75678102
Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1286_Cancelleria

8.96067520
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP414

9.07186309
Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308

12.34207438
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP188

14.26891026
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220

15.69991083
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP435



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1224_Cancelleria

5.47074035
Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley

5.49267694
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070

5.84825615
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071

5.96626349
Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley

6.17988673
Veneto:ALP481_Sappada_BL_Veneto



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1221_Cancelleria

3.79175421
Veneto:ALP481_Sappada_BL_Veneto

5.37303452
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070

5.56469226
Veneto:KF1803151

5.65681889
Corsica_o:corsica11908

5.86995741
Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1220_Cancelleria

6.01128106
Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308

6.66395528
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071

6.70908339
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220

6.75182938
Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley

7.49129495
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070



Distance to:
C7:Medieval_European:R1219_Cancelleria

6.39014084
Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308

7.15956004
Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP414

7.56361025
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP220

8.69537808
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP435

10.16225369
Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP188

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## Jovialis

^Italians as a source, with MA C6 and C7 as the target.

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## Jovialis

Modern Italians with medieval Italian samples, C6 and C7.

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