# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Haplogroup in T in Germany?

## Lauren Elizabeth

I read somewhere the Y-DNA haplogroup T was found in relatively high frequency in small areas of Germany (also the Tyrolian Alps region). Does anyone have more information about this?

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## Sile

> I read somewhere the Y-DNA haplogroup T was found in relatively high frequency in small areas of Germany (also the Tyrolian Alps region). Does anyone have more information about this?


many papers below support the ~8% of T and its sister ~4% L
http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Ty...etic_structure

also write to Chris ( very helpful) https://www.familytreedna.com/public...Gen_Genealogy/


Nat.Gen states between 3 to 21% in southern Germany for the T ydna marker ( unsure where they get this from ). The only Basal T-M184 in the T project are from Germany and Turkish-Armenia. But there are other basal markers....like my M272 which is North Caucasus and Eastern alps .............

There is also 3 papers ( year 2013) on the tyrol/austria/italy border areas .................there is a thread on it in this forum ...........also ask Nobody1 as he is an expert in the area

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## Lauren Elizabeth

Thank you so much!

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## Sile

Haak 2015 paper ............ydna T1a in Germany

*I0795.........* * T1a-PF5604*  ( *mtdna is H1bz* )


LBK_ENThis individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today. 


*OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
**LBK EN........... I0795........... CC*

Genotypes for the SNP rs1042602 in the gene _TYR_ for prehistoric European samples.
The derived A allele of this SNP is associated with light skin and an absence of freckles.

LBK_EN.......... I0795............ CC

_TYR_, rs1042602, light skin, absence of freckles

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## Hauteville

Interesting map.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...T_Y-DNA_II.svg

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## Sile

> Interesting map.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...T_Y-DNA_II.svg


depends how old it is , but egypt, arabian peninsula and africa where the last to get the T marker ..................all studies from genetic papers.

The east african study is interesting, they went there around 400AD with J1 as slavers of the africans.......it seems while europeans put west -africans under slavery , the arabians, persians and indians put east-africans under slavery

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## Sile

> Haak 2015 paper ............ydna T1a in Germany
> 
> *I0795.........* * T1a-PF5604*  ( *mtdna is H1bz* )
> 
> 
> LBK_ENThis individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today. 
> 
> 
> *OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
> ...


The only break-up of AuDna mix for I0795 I have seen

ANE 0.02
*Caucasian 20.47
WHG 7.65
EEF 60.72*
East Asian 0.34
Sub-saharan 0.68
*Near East 9.56*
Archaic African 0.57


IMO, looks purely either south-caucasus or north anatolian

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## Pax Augusta

> depends how old it is


Agree, like for every other hapolgroup and subclade.

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## Pax Augusta

Many different sources, but also in this case we can guess a minor lineage of both Neolithic farmers or Proto-Indo-European speakers.




> Wilde et al. (2014) tested mtDNA samples from the Yamna culture, the presumed homeland of Proto-Indo-European speakers, and found T2a1b in the Middle Volga region and Bulgaria, and T1a both in central Ukraine and the Middle Volga. The frequency of T1a and T2 in Yamna samples were each 14.5%, a percentage higher than in any country today and only found in similarly high frequencies among the Udmurts of the Volga-Ural region.


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full

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## Sile

> Many different sources, but also in this case we can guess a minor lineage of both Neolithic farmers or Proto-Indo-European speakers.
> 
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full


I think you are confused ..............I am speaking about T1 ( ydna ) who is 5200 years old and found in central germany with a mtdna of H1bz

you give me T1 and T2 of mtdna ..............the ydna and mtdna for T have nothing in common

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## RobertColumbia

> ...you give me T1 and T2 of mtdna ..............the ydna and mtdna for T have nothing in common


Good point. It's easy to look at the similar nomenclature of y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups and assume that someone who gets a y-DNA hg of T and an mtDNA hg of T can conclude that their parents are related. The letters are arbitrary and follow different schemes. mtDNA haplogroups, being the older of the two, are more haphazard and seem to follow no clear ordering scheme.

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## Sile

*Ancient DNA*

Haplogroup T1a-PF5604 has been found in a 7200ybp indivudal from Karsdorf, Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany. This T1a skeletal remain belongs to the Linienbandkeramische Kultur. T1a from Karsdorf reach 20% of all the samples between 7300 and 6900 ybp in Germany, being the other 80% the G2a from Halberstadt. His mtDNA has been found to be H1* and his autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.
 


7000-year-old structure of Pagan cult in Goseck, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt. The Goseck Circle


The site of Karsdorf is located in the valley of Unstrut, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. The slope on which Karsdorf is located is characterized by alluvial loess. The place itself was settled intensively since the earliest phase of the LBK in the region. The settlement area is at least 50 acres in size and nearly 30 houses have been excavated. So-called ‘settlement burials’ were regularly found in pits in the center of the settlement area, of which individual KAR6/I0795 (feature 170, 5207-5070 calBCE, MAMS 22823) was sampled for this study.[186][187]
The LBK settlement of Karsdorf (Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt) is located approximately 100km south of Derenburg and Halberstadt, on the river Unstrut, and was occupied between 5240 and 5000 BC (Behnke, 2007). The Neolithic buildings(n=24) of three settlement stages are dated to the early and middle LBK (after Meier-Arendt 1966). Except for four graves, all of the 30 burials are associated in groups next to houses in the centre of the settlement, similar to the site of Halberstadt. The individuals are buried in house-flanking pit graves at the western side of the houses and mostly arranged in north-east or north-west orientation. Grave goods are sparse; few graves contained more than one pot or a shell or horn pendant. Associated with every house group we can identify a person with outstanding grave inventory, who may represent a founding generation.|Oelze _et al._[188]




 I0795 (LBK_EN) This individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today.
— Haak 2015 
*ID*
*Y-DNA*
*Population*
*Language*
*Culture*
*Date(ybp)*
*Location*
*Members/SS*
*Percentage*
*mtDNA*
*Autosomal SNPs*
*Ancestral Components*
*Sample*
*Source*
*Notes*

I0795 - KAR6a - Feature 170
T1a-M70
Early European Neolithic
Paleo-European
Linearbandkeramik
7200
Karsdorf
1/1
100%
H1*
47804
Western European Hunter-Gatherer and Basal Eurasian
Tooth
[187]
Goseck circle

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## Teaford

Hi - I am pretty new to testing. I used my brother's & father's DNA to get started on my male line. They test as T-PAGES00011. They were T-L131 up until about 6 months ago. Our earliest known ancestor Jacob Dufford comes off the ship - HERO - in Philadelphia on October 24, 1764. Family history has it that he is from Alsace Lorraine and probably the Canton de Bitche region. The family name through the years in America becomes Teaford. I think we are the only ones I've seen that are T-PAGES00011. Anyone with any information regarding this name, please let me know. I joined the T and Alsace groups over on FTDNA. My MTDNA is H. I've done the Y testing on my brother up through 67 markers. We have one match who thinks his ancestors are from Ireland. These are our confirmed SNPs. I can find about 20 people who have T-PAGES00011 listed in their SNPS and they are almost exclusively in Arabic (which I don't speak).

CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00011+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+

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## Sile

> Hi - I am pretty new to testing. I used my brother's & father's DNA to get started on my male line. They test as T-PAGES00011. They were T-L131 up until about 6 months ago. Our earliest known ancestor Jacob Dufford comes off the ship - HERO - in Philadelphia on October 24, 1764. Family history has it that he is from Alsace Lorraine and probably the Canton de Bitche region. The family name through the years in America becomes Teaford. I think we are the only ones I've seen that are T-PAGES00011. Anyone with any information regarding this name, please let me know. I joined the T and Alsace groups over on FTDNA. My MTDNA is H. I've done the Y testing on my brother up through 67 markers. We have one match who thinks his ancestors are from Ireland. These are our confirmed SNPs. I can find about 20 people who have T-PAGES00011 listed in their SNPS and they are almost exclusively in Arabic (which I don't speak).
> 
> CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00011+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+


Maybe you can join ALPGEN project in ftdna .......CHris ( project manager) seems to hunt down ancient lines from the alps or near the alps.

Alsace and Auvergne are high spots in percentage for T1 in france

I am negative for Pages 00011 ..........

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## Khaleeji

IS there a way to contact a mod? why can't i post a thread with video links?

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## Alpenjager

Interesting results from studies about temperature, climatology and LBK groups (classified as members of the LBK by default). They link these LBK groups to success in adverse cold and wet climates, matching population growth and establishment of new settlements with cold peaks.

"During the 8.2 kyr event, the worse climate event of the Holocene produced by the coincidence of several solar and non-solar causes, several farmer groups expanded into the Balkans. This event marked a significant population decline in the hunter-gatherer societies of Europe [14], probably facilitating the invasion. At around 7.7 kyr BP, when the climate deteriorates again, arises the LBK culture that flourishes and expands into hunter-gatherer areas during the 7.7-7.0 kyr period, substituting the human populations that lived in Central Europe. According to Dubouloz[15], the LBK culture was well adapted to cold, wet periods through construction of robust buildings, placement of villages in tertiary drainage networks, well away from flood risk areas, the importance of cattle-herding, a marked reduction of the Balkan early Neolithic range of cultivated plants, and the practice of autumn sowing in intensively cultivated plots."

"Dubouloz[15], and Gronenborn[16], show that LBK expansion follows a climatic rhythm. LBK forms during the increasingly colder 7.7 kyr event and initiates its dispersal around 7.5 kyr BP at the peak of cold conditions. During the period of warmer drier climate that followed the 7.7 kyr event LBK consolidates a wide territory. The next period of dispersal initiates again at the next cold period around 7.3 kyr BP when LBK crosses the Rhine into Alsace and present time Dutch area. It is 200 years later during another cold period around 7.1 Kyr BP when LBK experiments its last dispersal into the Seine basin. Demographic analysis of LBK habitation[15] indicates that periods of dispersal coincide not only with cold, wet, periods but also with periods of maximal population, suggesting that the difficult conditions that gave the LBK its edge over other human groups, also caused the hardship and population decline that usually instigates climate migration. The arrival of better climate conditions after 7.0 kyr BP probably rendered the harsh climate adaptations of LBK disadvantageous and the culture quickly disorganized, losing its vast circulation networks of raw materials, and disappeared."

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## LeBrok

> Interesting results from studies about temperature, climatology and LBK groups (classified as members of the LBK by default). They link these LBK groups to success in adverse cold and wet climates, matching population growth and establishment of new settlements with cold peaks.
> 
> "During the 8.2 kyr event, the worse climate event of the Holocene produced by the coincidence of several solar and non-solar causes, several farmer groups expanded into the Balkans. This event marked a significant population decline in the hunter-gatherer societies of Europe [14], probably facilitating the invasion. At around 7.7 kyr BP, when the climate deteriorates again, arises the LBK culture that flourishes and expands into hunter-gatherer areas during the 7.7-7.0 kyr period, substituting the human populations that lived in Central Europe. According to Dubouloz[15], the LBK culture was well adapted to cold, wet periods through construction of robust buildings, placement of villages in tertiary drainage networks, well away from flood risk areas, the importance of cattle-herding, a marked reduction of the Balkan early Neolithic range of cultivated plants, and the practice of autumn sowing in intensively cultivated plots."
> 
> "Dubouloz[15], and Gronenborn[16], show that LBK expansion follows a climatic rhythm. LBK forms during the increasingly colder 7.7 kyr event and initiates its dispersal around 7.5 kyr BP at the peak of cold conditions. During the period of warmer drier climate that followed the 7.7 kyr event LBK consolidates a wide territory. The next period of dispersal initiates again at the next cold period around 7.3 kyr BP when LBK crosses the Rhine into Alsace and present time Dutch area. It is 200 years later during another cold period around 7.1 Kyr BP when LBK experiments its last dispersal into the Seine basin. Demographic analysis of LBK habitation[15] indicates that periods of dispersal coincide not only with cold, wet, periods but also with periods of maximal population, suggesting that the difficult conditions that gave the LBK its edge over other human groups, also caused the hardship and population decline that usually instigates climate migration. The arrival of better climate conditions after 7.0 kyr BP probably rendered the harsh climate adaptations of LBK disadvantageous and the culture quickly disorganized, losing its vast circulation networks of raw materials, and disappeared."


From what I gathered, a serious encroachment of LBK into Balkans, the one that lasted, started after Younger Dryas, around 5,600 BC. Expansion of LBK marks warmer period, not a cold one.

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## Alpenjager

> From what I gathered, a serious encroachment of LBK into Balkans, the one that lasted, started after Younger Dryas, around 5,600 BC. Expansion of LBK marks warmer period, not a cold one.


Perhaps you should update your sources. These studies are: Dubouloz, Jérôme; et al. (2008), Shennan, Stephen; et al. (2013) and Gronenborn, Detlef; et al. (2013).

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## Alpenjager

LBK temperatures.jpgLBK demography.jpg
Temperatures, Demography and Expansion

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## LeBrok

> LBK temperatures.jpgLBK demography.jpg
> Temperatures, Demography and Expansion


 Sorry, it wasn't Younger Dryas, it was another cold event at that date. With maximum strength around year 6,000 BC. Your LBK map shows beginning of their expansion at 7550 BP which is 5550 BC. I said 5600 BC. Which was right in the warm part of climate. It makes more sense that Farmers from Anatolia moved North in a very warm period. Why would they go North into cold where their crops can't survive? What would they it?

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## Alpenjager

I have made a bar chart showing the mtDNA H frequency among all tested Early Neolithic populations. I have excluded H5 results because this is found in Anatolia and is not found in Karsdorf.

Interesting findings is that Karsdorf match pretty well with Eastern Balkans while starcevo-koros and LBK from southwestern Germany match with Anatolia.

I have not included any unreliable sample and I decided count as H5 an ambiguous H vs H5 sample from Barcin. I have not included two samples from Portugal.

mtDNA haplogroup H (xH5) Early Neolithic.jpgmtDNA haplogroup HV (xH5, HV0) Early Neolithic.jpg

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## Alpenjager

> I have made a bar chart showing the mtDNA H frequency among all tested Early Neolithic populations. I have excluded H5 results because this is found in Anatolia and is not found in Karsdorf.
> 
> Interesting findings is that Karsdorf match pretty well with Eastern Balkans while starcevo-koros and LBK from southwestern Germany match with Anatolia.
> 
> I have not included any unreliable sample and I decided count as H5 an ambiguous H vs H5 sample from Barcin. I have not included two samples from Portugal.
> 
> mtDNA haplogroup H (xH5) Early Neolithic.jpgmtDNA haplogroup HV (xH5, HV0) Early Neolithic.jpg



As Predicted by my bar chart 4 month ago, T1a1a have been found in a Criş culture settlement.

And as I showed in this map 3 months ago: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_7000_YBP.png

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## Sile

> As Predicted by my bar chart 4 month ago, T1a1a have been found in a Criş culture settlement.
> 
> And as I showed in this map 3 months ago: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_7000_YBP.png


the 2 new latest T1a ( ydna ) from the paper are:

T1a1a - CTS4916 ............mtdna = T2e

and

T1a1 - PF5658 ............mtdna = T2e 


Both are found in Bulgaria ..............Cris culture is Romanian

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## Alpenjager

> the 2 new latest T1a ( ydna ) from the paper are:
> 
> T1a1a - CTS4916 ............mtdna = T2e
> 
> and
> 
> T1a1 - PF5658 ............mtdna = T2e 
> 
> 
> Both are found in Bulgaria ..............Cris culture is Romanian


Criş culture is not boundared to modern Country boundaries. They belong to the Criş culture, Malak Preslaviets is in the Romanian-Bulgarian border.

They belong to mtDNA T2e but:
1-T1a settlements can integrate other mtDNA lineages as previously seen in Karsdorf (not necessarily originally linked to T1a)
2-T2e have not been found outside Europe yet.

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## Sile

> Criş culture is not boundared to modern Country boundaries. They belong to the Criş culture, Malak Preslaviets is in the Romanian-Bulgarian border.
> 
> They belong to mtDNA T2e but:
> 1-T1a settlements can integrate other mtDNA lineages as previously seen in Karsdorf (not necessarily originally linked to T1a)
> 2-T2e have not been found outside Europe yet.


with there age of between 5000 to 6000 BC , and both seemingly being part of T1a1 group, I will need to wait to find T1a2 ancients

All I can link these T1a2 to are areas of Chios, Central eastern Italy, Alpine areas of Italy and Austria, SW-Germany, belgae areas, british Isles, Old prussia with sweden and finland and southern Ukraine..........maybe one day in the future for old ancient T1a2

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## Alpenjager

Karsdorf Map
Karsdorf Burial settlement T1a.jpg

Malak Preslavets Map
Malak Preslavets ( Cris Culture ) Map.jpg

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## Sile

> Karsdorf Map
> Attachment 8679
> 
> Malak Preslavets Map
> Attachment 8678



*vBulletin Message* Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

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## Alpenjager

The T1a1a individuals from Malak Preslavets are found to be the most EHG+WHG from the Balkans in the Early Neolithic = 35%
The less EHG+WHG found in Malak Preslavets is a G2a2b2a individual = 0%

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## Sile

> The T1a1a individuals from Malak Preslavets are found to be the most EHG+WHG from the Balkans in the Early Neolithic = 35%
> The less EHG+WHG found in Malak Preslavets is a G2a2b2a individual = 0%


Was this malak town a trade centre?................it was on the danube river and it was also a boat building town

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## patrician

The M70 mutation is particularly interesting because it only represents roughly 1% of chromosomes world-wide. It is, although, most common in east Africa and the Middle east. Thomas Jefferson's T-PF7444 is particularly interesting because it has a one-step match with an egyptian T haplotype. This is consistent with Jefferson's patrilineage belonging to an ancient and rare indigenous european type. M70 was identified in the Welsh Jefferson's DNA and in British (2/421 0.5%), Western French ( 3/561 0.5%) and Iberian Peninsula samples ( 13/987 1.3%). The haplogroup is rare world-wide, in 14,685 chromosomes in the literature, only 150 examples (1.02%) were found. Apart from 12 cases from non-indigenous populations of the USA, the samples are confined to Africa and western Eurasia. They reach their highest frequencies in the Middle East and Northern east Africa, exceeding 7% of the male population in Somalia, Oman, Egypt and Iraq. Samples were also found at a lower frequency in the central and western Mediterranean, including the Iberian Peninsula. Other high frequencies are reported in Druze, Palestinian, Ethiopian and Tanzanian samples (roughly 5%). Of 421 British males surveyed, only 0.5% were M70+. In a phylogenetic network, the "Thomas Jefferson" haplotype lies at the periphery of the network: It's nearest (one mutational step) genetic neighbour is an Egyptian, while spanish/portuguese haplotypes lie only 2 steps away. This seems compatible with the British examples, including the Jefferson haplotype, as being members of an ancient and diverse indigenous european lineage, rather than recent immigrants from the middle east. If there was no prior family history knowledge about the ancestry of the Jefferson paternal haplotype, it might be assigned to an Egyptian origin. This is consistent with T-PF7444, or a major part of this cluster as having Hispanic/ North-african roots. The presence of the Jefferson M70 haplotype in these apparently unrelated British men supports the general idea that the President's RECENT paternal ancestry is in Western Europe, rather than the middle east. In a separate study, 3 to 6 mutational step ancestors of the Jefferson haplotype were found in 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian and an African-American.

----------


## Alpenjager

http://docslide.net/documents/k-bacvarov-malak-preslavets-revisited-the-early-neolithic-burials.html

----------


## Alpenjager

WHG / EHG percentages in Malak Preslavets settlement

oi64.tinypic.com/kef4eh.jpg

----------


## zanipolo

> WHG / EHG percentages in Malak Preslavets settlement
> 
> oi64.tinypic.com/kef4eh.jpg


do you have the gedmatch ID for these samples?

----------


## Alpenjager

Their genomes have not been released yet.

----------


## Alpenjager

Mesolithic and Early Neolithic samples from Europe with Scandinavian HG + Ukrainian HG + Aegean Farmer autosomal combination.
This autosomal combination is found exclusively among ancient populations found around the Danube river. 
Also interesting to note the haplogroups found with this combination are R1b-V88, C1a2-V20 and T1a1a-L208. Curiously, R1b-V88 as well as T1a1a-L208 are both the lineages that migrated strongly deep into Africa, across the Sahel both and across all East Africa the last.
Also remember that both have been found among the Tubus of Chad, who were found to be strongly related to a LBK-like ancestral population.

Also I added the two samples with highest frequencies for both HG populations when combined with Aegean Farmer.


Balkan HG vs Aegean Farmer.png

----------


## Pratt

> WHG / EHG percentages in Malak Preslavets settlement
> 
> oi64.tinypic.com/kef4eh.jpg

----------


## Sile

> 


what does all the percentages mean for this bulgarian site on the danube river ?

----------


## Alpenjager

This is what I have posted in a link above. These percentages belong to the Balkan Hunter-Gatherer autosomal ancestry in each of those ancient individuals.

----------


## Sile

> This is what I have posted in a link above. These percentages belong to the Balkan Hunter-Gatherer autosomal ancestry in each of those ancient individuals.


Do you see any association between these bulgarians T and the Karlsdorf German T ?

----------


## Alpenjager

Yes Sile, I'm pretty sure that Karsdorf T1a1 and Malak Preslavets T1a1a are closely related, belonging both to the same L208 branch.

I have previously predicted this Balkan HG link several years ago.

----------


## curiouscat

Some regions of Southern Germany has haplogroup T frequency at 10%. It's part of the spread of Neolithic farming along with other Neoltihic specific haplgoup: E, J,G

----------


## Alpenjager

You forgot I1, I2, C1a2, H2 and even R1b-V88. All of them are found among early farmers.
Anyway, most of them is still unclear how and when they became farmers. T1a, I1, R1b-V88 have not been found among any non-european early farmer population.
I2 is found among aegean early farmers just like G2a2, H2, C1a2 and J2.

----------


## Alpenjager

Sile, I took a look into all of this again and I think there are two most strongly candidates to be related to Karsdorf and MalakP samples.
One of both, T1a1a1b1a-PF7443 or T1a1a1a1b1a1-Y3782, is the most likely candidate to be involved in these two settlements.

----------


## Sile

> Sile, I took a look into all of this again and I think there are two most strongly candidates to be related to Karsdorf and MalakP samples.
> One of both, T1a1a1b1a-PF7443 or T1a1a1a1b1a1-Y3782, is the most likely candidate to be involved in these two settlements.


Thanks

Has the ancient samples in south germany , once thought to be E haplogroup and lately stated as 4 x T haplogroup been studied yet?

----------


## Salento

T1a/T M70 in Europe according to Nat Geno 2.0 Helix:
Branch: M70
Age: 19,250 – 33,750 Years Ago.
Location of Origin: West Asia.

"In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany."

----------


## Alpenjager

> Thanks
> 
> Has the ancient samples in south germany , once thought to be E haplogroup and lately stated as 4 x T haplogroup been studied yet?


Do you have the link to the haplotype markers? I lost it. I think them have not been further studied.

----------


## Sile

> Do you have the link to the haplotype markers? I lost it. I think them have not been further studied.


It is in the paper you supplied me

----------


## Alpenjager

Results of I0700 and I1108 in GEDmatch:


T1a1a *I0700* of *Malak Preslavets* 7550 ± 200 yBP

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

*Neolithic Balkan Farmers**-----------41%
**ScandinavianHG-WestHG**-----------26%
**Afansievo-Yamnaya**-------------------19%
Early European Farmers-------------13%
Others-------------------------------------1*-*3%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *HungaryGamba_BA2 11.88*

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

*Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------47%
**ScandinavianHG-WestHG**------------------21%
CaucasusHG-EEF-------------------------------17%
EastHG---------------------------------------------16%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Europe_MNChL 27.31*


T1a1a *I1108* of *Malak Preslavets* 7550 ± 200 yBP

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

*Neolithic Balkan Farmers**---------40%
**Afansievo-Yamnaya**-----------------28%
**Early European Farmers**-----------17%
**ScandinavianHG-WestHG**---------14%
Others-------------------------------------1-3%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Bell_Beaker_LN1 8.06*

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

*Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic**------------------43%
CaucasusHG-EEF--------------------------------25%
EastHG-----------------------------------------------17%
**ScandinavianHG-WestHG**--------------------14%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Sardinian 21.52*

----------


## Alpenjager

T1a1a *I0795* of *Karsdorf* 7079 ± 88

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

*Neolithic Balkan Farmers---------65%
ScandinavianHG-WestHG---------30%
Siberian-----------------------------4%
Early European Farmers-----------2%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Nordic_MN 8.86*

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

*Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic----------------71%
CaucasusHG-EEF---------------------------20%
ScandinavianHG-WestHG------------------9%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
*1 Stuttgart-----15.17*




T1a1a *I0797* of *Karsdorf* 7125 ± 325

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

*Neolithic Balkan Farmers----------69%
SW_Asian----------------------------10%
East African-------------------------10%
ScandinavianHG-WestHG----------5%
Afansievo-Yamnaya----------------3%
Early European Farmers-----------2%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
*1 HungaryGamba_EN8----18.73*




Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

*Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic-----------------57%
NatufianHG----------------------------------17%
CaucasusHG-EEF----------------------------14%
ScandinavianHG-WestHG------------------10%
Iran Neolithic--------------------------------3%
Others----------------------------------------1%*

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Stuttgart---------13.9*

----------


## Alpenjager

*T1a1a stages

*From *Malak Preslavets* (7550 ± 200 yBP) to *Karsdorf* (7079 ± 88 // 7125 ± 325)

*Decreasing (most ancient linked-components of T1a1a)*:
- *Afansievo-Yamnaya (EastHG+CaucasusHG)
*- *Early European Farmers

Not clear yet:
*= *ScandinavianHG-WestHG

**Increasing* *(most recently additioned components of T1a1a)*:
+ *Neolithic Balkan Farmers*

----------


## Alpenjager

*T1b

*T1b *I1707* of '*Ain Ghazal* 9573 ± 39

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

*Neolithic Balkan Farmers----------50%
SW_Asian----------------------------30%
**Afansievo-Yamnaya-----------------7%
**ScandinavianHG-WestHG-----------5%
**Papuan--------------------------------5%
**SE_Asian------------------------------4%**
Early European Farmers-------------1%

*Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *HungaryGamba_EN8--------27.5


**Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic-----------------57%
NatufianHG----------------------------------24%
CaucasusHG-EEF----------------------------13%
ScandinavianHG-WestHG-------------------4%
Others----------------------------------------0-2%

*Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 *Stuttgart---------18.48*

----------


## Alpenjager

Mesolithic and Neolithic samples in the eastern Balkans.

Mesolithic - Neolithic Balkan samplesII.jpg

----------


## Alpenjager

*T1a3a1a1a1a-Y13279*
*
T1a3a1a1a1a DA125 of Ancient Eurasian Steppe ( Used SNPs in GEDmatch: 147443 )

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

**Afansievo-Yamnaya-----------------48%
**Neolithic Balkan Farmers----------20%
**Early European Farmers-------------18%**
ScandinavianHG-WestHG-----------7%
**S_Amerindian----------------------- -4%**
Siberian--------------------------------2%
**Kalash---------------------------------1%**

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Andronovo_BA3--------7.33**


Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

**East European HG--------------------------30%**
CaucasusHG-EEF----------------------------18%
**Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic-----------------17%**
ScandinavianHG-WestHG-------------------13%
**Iran Neolithic---------------------------------10%
**Polar--------------------------------------------5%
**NatufianHG-------------------------------------3%**
Others-------------------------------------------0-3%

Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Steppe_IA---------18.94



**T1a3a1a1a1a-Y13279*
*
T1a3a1a1a1a DA125 of Ancient Eurasian Steppe ( Used SNPs in GEDmatch: 217859 )* *Ted Kandell Upload**

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions

**Afansievo-Yamnaya-----------------28%
**Early European Farmers-------------27%**
**South Asian---------------------------12%**
ScandinavianHG-WestHG-------------8%
**S_Amerindian---------------------------6%**
**Neolithic Balkan Farmers--------------5%**
Siberian----------------------------------5%
**SubSaharan------------------------------4%
**Kalash-------------------------------------2%
**Southwest Asian--------------------------2%

**Single Population Sharing:
#
Population (source)
Distance

1
RISE_baSca
18.57


**

Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

**East European HG--------------------------21%**
CaucasusHG-EEF----------------------------22%**
**Iran Neolithic---------------------------------15%**
**Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic-------------------9%**
ScandinavianHG-WestHG--------------------8%**
**Ancestral Indian-------------------------------7%
**Polar--------------------------------------------6%
**Siberian-----------------------------------------6%
**SubSaharan-------------------------------------3%**
**NatufianHG--------------------------------------2%**
Others-------------------------------------------0-3%

**Single Population Sharing:
#
Population (source)
Distance

1
Tajik
19.48


*

----------


## Sile

> *T1a3a1a1a1a-Y13279*
> *
> T1a3a1a1a1a DA125 of Ancient Eurasian Steppe ( Used SNPs in GEDmatch: 147443 )
> 
> Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions
> 
> **Afansievo-Yamnaya-----------------48%
> **Neolithic Balkan Farmers----------20%
> **Early European Farmers-------------18%**
> ...


Mtdna is U2e2a

----------


## Angela

Interesting. That's my mtDna. (U2e2a)

Somehow made its way all the way over to the hinterlands north of La Spezia. I have no idea precisely how or when.

----------


## Sile

> *T1a3a1a1a1a-Y13279*
> *
> T1a3a1a1a1a DA125 of Ancient Eurasian Steppe ( Used SNPs in GEDmatch: 147443 )
> Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions
> **Afansievo-Yamnaya-----------------48%
> **Neolithic Balkan Farmers----------20%
> **Early European Farmers-------------18%**
> ScandinavianHG-WestHG-----------7%
> **S_Amerindian----------------------- -4%**
> ...


what gedmatch ID did you use for the above ...................below is his ID
*Kit Num: Z043955*
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurasia K14 Neolithic 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
Eurasia K14 Neolithic Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):
#	Population	Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 48.13
2 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 19.62
3 Early_European_Farmers 18.29
4 SHG_WHG 7.30
5 S_Amerindian 3.67
6 Siberian 2.18
Finished reading population data. 122 populations found.
14 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Andronovo_BA3 @ 7.417230
2 Corded_Ware_BA4 @ 12.177863
3 Bell_Beaker_LN5 @ 13.069198
4 Bell_Beaker_LN6 @ 13.322065
5 Andronovo_BA1 @ 17.615381
6 Benzigerode_LN3 @ 18.108631
7 Corded_Ware_LN3 @ 19.645847
8 Benzigerode_LN1 @ 20.057688
9 Unetice_BA3 @ 21.346790
10 Andronovo_BA4 @ 22.834948
11 Sintashta_BA @ 22.837910
12 Unetice_BA2 @ 23.140846
13 Sintashta_BA @ 23.441031
14 Sintashta_BA @ 23.763918
15 Karsdorf_LN @ 23.810766
16 Corded_Ware_LN2 @ 23.819519
17 Benzigerode_LN2 @ 24.142025
18 RISE_baSca @ 24.571037
19 Karasuk_BA5 @ 24.680170
20 Corded_Ware_BA7 @ 24.776438
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Corded_Ware_BA3 +50% Yamnaya_BA2 @ 3.366981
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bell_Beaker_LN5 +25% Andronovo_BA4 +25% Sintashta_BA @ 2.993412

----------


## Alpenjager

Z043955 and Z456040

----------


## Sile

> Z043955 and Z456040


2 samples of T or just 2 gedmatch ID's

----------


## Alpenjager

> 2 samples of T or just 2 gedmatch ID's


Only change the used SNPs as specified above.

----------


## Sile

there might be a third T1a sample in neolithic karlsdorf site Germany with mtdna J1c ( other 2 had H1 and H46 ).................I will keep you informed

----------


## Salento

> Haak 2015 paper ............ydna T1a in Germany
> *I0795.........* * T1a-PF5604*  ( *mtdna is H1bz* )
> 
> LBK_ENThis individual belonged to haplogroup T1a (PF5604:7890461C→T, M70:21893881A→C). This is the first instance of this haplogroup in an ancient individual that we are aware of and strengthens the case for the early Neolithic origin of this lineage in modern Europeans, rather than a more recent introduction from the Near East where it is more abundant today. 
> 
> *OCA2, rs1800407, green or hazel eyes
> **LBK EN........... I0795........... CC*
> 
> Genotypes for the SNP rs1042602 in the gene _TYR_ for prehistoric European samples.
> ...


_
Q-Matching One-To-One_
*
Salento vs I0795_Karsdorf and I0797_Karsdorf 
*
... Two males, known as KAR6 (or I0795) and KAR16a (I0797), have been of great interest to scholars as the subject of successful Y-DNA analysis ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains


*(T1a-M70)*

Comparing Kit M789703 *(I0797_Karsdorf)*

All SNPs used.

Chr
B37 Start Pos'n
B37 End Pos'n
SNPs
Centimorgans (cM)
Q

6
38,248,195
42,663,287
102
7.96
1.0



Total cM: 7.96
Largest segment cM: 7.96
Total segments: 1

————-

*(T1a1-CTS880)*

Comparing Kit M671535 *(I0795_Karsdorf)*

All SNPs used.

Chr
B37 Start Pos'n
B37 End Pos'n
SNPs
Centimorgans (cM)
Q

8
43,024,625
55,505,788
94
5.99
1.0



Total cM: 5.99
Largest segment cM: 5.99
Total segments: 1

----------


## Salento

_SZ36 T1a1... Central Roman / Longobard

_
_

EDIT

CL23 T1a2... N.Italian
_

----------


## Salento

_Karsdorf sample Kars537 T1a1- L162 
GedMatch Kit_ JM7481206_
Q-Matching with me:

_

----------


## torzio

> _Karsdorf sample Kars537 T1a1- L162 
> GedMatch Kit_ JM7481206_
> Q-Matching with me:
> 
> _


Thanks.....i will use it when i get home

----------


## torzio

CL23

Kit Num: UU5731879
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
*Gedmatch.Com* *puntDNAL K12 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle* This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Anatolian_NF
38.82

2
European_HG
29.47

3
Caucasus_HG
19.70

4
Near_East
9.36




Finished reading population data. 55 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 14.047562
2 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 15.104453
3 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 16.894352
4 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 17.182758
5 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 17.287374
6 Vatya_SG_RISE479 @ 19.706415
7 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 20.102182
8 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 20.111923
9 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 20.141365
10 Hungary_BA_I1502 @ 20.588722
11 Potapovka_I0419 @ 22.722622
12 Srubnaya_I0430 @ 22.941549
13 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 @ 24.666349
14 Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 25.104803
15 Iceman_MN_SG @ 26.206005
16 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 @ 26.660355
17 Srubnaya_I0232 @ 26.833208
18 Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 27.506779
19 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 @ 28.004814
20 Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 28.015741



I have zero one on one with any samples.........maybe I am using the wrong program

----------


## Salento

If you don’t get anything on the free One-To-One, you could try (Tier One) Q-Matching One-To-One. (also change the default 7 to 1) You might get Lucky!

puntDNAL K12 Ancient

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 24.597687
2 Iceman_MN_SG @ 25.779114
3 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 25.901196
4 Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 26.606203
5 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 26.663269
6 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 27.000668
7 Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 27.150440
8 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 27.460583
9 LBK_EN_I0054 @ 27.623238
10 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 27.883018

----------

