# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Languages, haplogroups, and tribes

## how yes no 2

Idea is to take a meaning and compare related words in different languages of today and see whether the word correlates with spread of some haplogroup or tribal group....

emphasis should be on words that must have been important in ancient past...

e.g. tower

haplogroup E

kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
kullë/ kala - Albanian
kule/kale - Turkish
kula - also exist in Serbian & Croatian but is more archaic middle age related...

haplogroup I
toranj - Serbian & Croatian
torn - Swedish
tårn - Norwegian
turn - Icelandic
torni - Finish
tårn - Danish
toren - Dutch
turn - Romanian 
torn - Estonian
tornis - Latvian

festung / turm - German
fastingstorn - Swedish


haplogroup R1b
twr - Welsh
tower - English

torre - Spanish / Catalan /Portuguese / Italian
tour - French
túr - Irish
dorrea - Basque


dar/tar = encampment, camp - Berberic languages (according to http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...10&postcount=9)

haplogroup R1a

věž - Czech
veža - Slovak
vieža - Belorusian
wieża / baszta - Polish
vezha /bashta - Ukrainian
bashnya - Russian


local words

bokštas - Lihuanian

stolp - Slovenian 

pýrgos - Greek

koshki - Georgian

Mīnāra - Hindi

ashtarak - Armenian

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## iapetoc

How yes now

The Greek Pyrgos is the Light House that is quarded and fortified,
the Greek Tower as Fortification is -Issa or -Ida or -Intha
to explain it better
Pyrgos is a fortication that holds Fire light,
If light is on Then is OK if light is Off then something goes wrong,
the fortification that has defending Walls and towers is -Issa -Ida - Intha - iza
(Edessa - Larissa - Tyrintha) 
also a quarding tower to watch area is Phylakai 
the quarding tower to support defence is Kelli- Celli 
to understand it the approach is 
the main defence is acropolis, the -issa etc 
The peripheral defence is The wall suported by (De)*Celleia* (tenth tower)
the pre-defence is Phylakai that Alarms area,
The Pyrgos is the Tower that Alarms by setting or hide Fire signals,
also Pyrgos is the last defence point, If fire of Pyrgos is out then battle is lost,
The fire of Pyrgos is like today Flag.
The Greek word is also Celli as you down

The tower that holds Fire has 2 names 
1 is Phanos-Pharos the lighting house
2 is Pyrgos the qurded lighting house that connects with city defense

It is remarkable that the word Τσαλλι *Calli* is in Pontian Greek language as also in Ionic
we know that Ionic named the strong fortifications Calli, probably from *-essa*
Calli is probably ancient Thracian or Persian word, cause it was used By Mithridates
as also the Ionic cities Calli-polis(fortifiedcity) - Calla-Vria (Callabressa= fortified castle), although many Greek linguists connect it with PIE Kallos = beauty 
as an example lets see city Trebizond- Trapezus
Trape is the Geometrical
Zus from soessa - Trapessoessa-> Trapezus
but the monasteries before that name was given to them was Cellia (κελλια) 
the word Celli exists in Modern Greek as Κελλι 
watch the word Κελλυφος -> the fortified armor of an animal like turtles bone

*the possibility that Celli-Kulla comes from the Same word is obvious,

Probably the words
Kulla
Kale
Kule 
Celli 

comes from far ancient Pelasgian or Lelegian or Persian and split to Thracian satem and Thyrrenian centum
or from PIE language 
the Latin has similar the Cell or shell*
greek kelli in latin is cell
Greek kelyfos in Latin is shell 

*Pyrgos comes from Pyr and Cell
Pyr + celli in hand is Pyrsos = torch
Pyr+ Calli as tower is Pyrgos 
That is why the Lighting House is Pharos, cause it was not fortified* (not Calli)

*Now in Wich Haplogroup Calli belong as Language, it is for you to Decide
But I believe Belongs to Thyrrenian Family language*,
Means either J2 either E either I2a 
And Turkish are not major E Haplogroup

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## Neander

> kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
> kullë/ kala - Albanian
> kule/kale - Turkish
> kula - also exist in Serbian & Croatian but is more archaic middle age related...


Albvanian, Serbian, Greek, Byulgarian, and other Balkan languages have a lot of Turk borrowings, so KULLA is a turk word.

Then Kulla has not any link to Haplogroup E.

Even, you must divide, nations, which came here during 7-th century, South Slavis peoples, they did'nt live here in the time when Haplogroup E evolved.

Two languages which existed here in ancient times are Greek and Albanian, which are still live languages. 

As for Pyrgos, it is pelasgian word. In albanian Burg means "prison" (I am not sure, in serbian it is "Zatvor"), and it is because the prisons in Albanian "Kulla" was in the groundfloor. Even it is related to German Burg (Hamburg, Luxemburg) which means city, and city is again related to Kulla, which is nothing else than a small castle.

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## iapetoc

Neander still wrong

You haven't even read what I write

Kulla calli Kalle is pelasgic not turkish

as turkish YΟΚ is pelasgic OYΚ

cause if Kulla is Turkish then CallaBresse were turks

Even if Pyrgos is IE GErman Burg Albanian Burg, 

Then Callabressa Calltaza Callipolis does not mean Fortified
the kelli in Modern Greek comes from ancient Thyrrenian and is similar to Latin cell 
witch in Satem LAnguages becomes Kell and Calli - Kalle

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## how yes no 2

iapetoc, I accept your suggestion and correct mapping to haplogroups of words with meaning 'tower' in following way:


haplogroups E & J & (I2a?)

Calli/ Kelli / Celli /Celleia Greek
kula - Macedonian & Bulgarian
kullë/ kala - Albanian
kule/kale - Turkish
kula - in Serbian & Croatian it is related to tower of middle age fortress, thus military term...


haplogroup I
toranj - Serbian & Croatian -word is used for modern towers and civil ones...
torn - Swedish
tårn - Norwegian
turn - Icelandic
torni - Finish
tårn - Danish
toren - Dutch
turn - Romanian 
torn - Estonian
tornis - Latvian

festung / turm - German
fastingstorn - Swedish


haplogroup R1b
twr - Welsh
tower - English

torre - Spanish / Catalan /Portuguese / Italian
tour - French
túr - Irish
dorrea - Basque


dar/tar = encampment, camp - Berberic languages (according to http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...10&postcount=9)

haplogroup R1a

věž - Czech
veža - Slovak
vieža - Belorusian
wieża / baszta - Polish
vezha /bashta - Ukrainian
bashnya - Russian


local words

bokštas - Lihuanian

stolp - Slovenian (btw. this is word alike to word for pillar in other Slavic languages)

koshki - Georgian

Mīnāra - Hindi

ashtarak - Armenian

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## how yes no 2

key thing is to choose words used by man as this is about YDNA
so military terms are the best...

next word - fortress

R1b old
gotorleku - Basque

haplogroup R1b
fortress - English
forteresse - French
fortetsya - *Ukrainian* (? not much R1b there)
fortalesa - Catalan
fortaleza - Spanish/Portuguese
fortezza - Italian
fortăreaţă - Romanian
fort - Dutch/Swedish

haplogroup I
vesting - Dutch
fästning - Swedish
Festung - German
fæstning - Danish
festning - Norwegian

?
froúrio - Greek
virkið - Icelandic
var - Hungarian (2nd term, 1st is erőd)

kindlus - Estonian

castellum - Latin

cietoksnis - Latvian

R1a
krepasć - Belorussian
krepostʹ - Russian
krepost - Bulgarian

haplogroup E/J
kale - Turkish
kala - Albanian

?
pevnosť - Slovak
pevnost - Czech


I2a2
tvrdina - Macedonian (possible coin of "tvrd" (hard/strong) + din (Celtic ending for settlement)
tvrdjava -serbo-croatian ( possible coin of "tvrd" (hard/strong) + dava (dacian ending for settlement)
trdnjava - Slovenian
tvirtovė - *Lithuanian* (? no I2a2 there)

?
gaer - Welsh

erőd - Hungarian
berd - Armenian (reminds of "berg" - hill in german and "breg"/"brdo" -hill in Slavic, I mention it because fortresses were on hills)

ts’ikhe - Georgian

linnoitus - Finish

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## LeBrok

Interesting thread, good idea how yes no.

Ukrainian Fortetsya and Polish Forteca is foreign, probably from Latin fortis - strong.
The proper west Slavic word should be grod/grud, it means surrounded with walls.
Probably Hungarian erod is related, look how much R1a is there. In Poland twierdza is used, similar to tvirtove (Lithuanian) probably roots from hard/twardy. We also use words Var and Zamek with similar meanings.

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## LeBrok

If you have time, I wouldn't mind if you look up also words like cow, horse, sword, axe, home, milk, honey, head, eye, head, father, brother. I think these are important once for indoeuropeans. And off course I missed a lot of important ones. :)

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## how yes no 2

Le Brok thanks for adding Polish words for fortress...
I somehow forgot to search for them....

btw. you can also search for words...
it is easy... go to google translate and switch languages... in no time you get words for all european languages....

twierdza is same group with south Slavs and Lithuanian...I did put it in I2a2 but it is questionable as Lithuanians do not have much or any I2a2...

grod and var might be R1a words as they are shared with Magyars who I believe were also R1a people...

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## LeBrok

I have an idea, maybe not a bad one. :)

Let's group words in relation to known groups of people that Europe is build of. One group would be related to agriculturalists from south, other to herders/domesticated animals from east, yet another one to sea people. Other groupings of words could be body parts, geography/toponyms, and of course warrior vocabulary.
The idea is that if you take one word then who knows how it evolved and could be misleading. For grouping of words we could get some statistical trend.

For example for agriculturalists we should find words like field, seed, harvest, hoe, plow, wagon, wheat, water etc.
For herders: cow, grass/meadow, milk, pig, horse etc.
For warriors: sword, axe, horse, wagon, shield, battle, hero etc
For sea people: ship, sea, wave, port, ore etc
For toppings: river, mountain, forest, tree or names of trees.
Settlements: village, fortess, road
Body parts: main ones.
Social events: wedding, burial
Religious: name gods.
...I'm sure I missed something important. :)

We are probably looking at 100 words or so, but if we keep it updating for many languages and for many months, maybe we could discover something interesting. I hope all community will chip in and make this project going and interesting.

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## Reinaert

> Interesting thread, good idea how yes no.
> 
> Ukrainian Fortetsya and Polish Forteca is foreign, probably from Latin fortis - strong.


Well... Let's see... I told you you're a clown.

The examples that you give are not from Latin, not even probably.
The three languages you mention have 1 common older language.

The Romans didn't even use the word fortis in the names of their strongholds.
More names like Castra Vetera, Mosa Trajectum and such.

But there are Germanic tribes that used the word, like the Franks.. Frankfurt.

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## LeBrok

*Here is an example how I envisioned it. Of course we will correct, extend and expand it. It would be nice to find old Greek, German, English, and old Slav words.*

*I'm not sure how to display this table correctly in this window. I'm trying to paste and the table is loosing the structure. Everything is posted in one raw.*

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## Taranis

While I must say that this idea is rather neat and interesting (though I doubt that a correlation with genetics is actually possible), the main problem is that it's not that a good idea to look at modern languages. It might be much more interesting to look at for instance Gothic than German (or perhaps both for the sake of completeness). Likewise, taking a look at Gaulish and Sanskrit would be useful. On the other hand, what I wanted to add, for instance there's actually a cognate for "Knife" in German, namely "Knippchen" (or "Kneipchen", depending on the dialect), which is a colloqial word for knife.

Another aspect is that you might want to consider is that meanings of words may change, but cognates nontheless still exist, albeit with a shifted meaning. For instance, the Gaulish word for horse is "Epos", but the cognates in modern Welsh ("Ebol") and Breton ("Ebeul") actually mean 'foal'.

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## LeBrok

Exactly, the long shot would be to find the oldest words in main language groups. My table is just a rough example and starting point. It's a long shot and probably nothing useful will turn out, but it could be fun if many members here take part. 
I'm not sure what form and what program to use to make these tables interactive and accessible for all in easy way?

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## iapodos

Serbian and general South Slavic word for mountain-*pla*nina.
Etimology- root *pel-. as words plonina in polish and polonina in ukraine meaning something what is full ( not empty).
The same root as nordic Fjell in the same meaning-mountain.


In other slavic languages word for mountain is Gora or Hora.

Though all this etimology could be from Indoeuropeans.
Probably all this words have same root: full, blue, field, plenty and serbian puno(*pol*no), *pl*avo, *pol*je with the same meaning as in English.

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## iapodos

One more interesting etimology is that of Slavic word for fish- *riba*.
It is found only in slavic languages and probably isn't indoeuropean.
There is explanation that it is connected with german word for caterpillar- *Raupe*.
If the paleolithic Europeans had word for fish, could it be something close to -*riba*.
Bask word for fish is *arrain*. The most interesting thing is that Sardinian word for caterpillar is- *ruga*. It is well known fact that sardinian is most conservative romance language with so called pre latin sardinian substratum. It is also well known fact that Sardinia is predominantly I2a1.
Just to mention that probable root for slavic riba is *ri**(a,e,o,u)*+ba, like žaba(frog) *ža*+ ba.

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## spongetaro

_*Basque ozpil_ "fresh place »/ Sardinian (Nuoro region) *ozpil* « fresh place »
*Sardinian (Nuoro region) *gorru* "red"/ basque *gorri* « red »
*Corsican *zerru* “pork”/ Basque *zerri* “pork”

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## spongetaro

*Basque *ibar* _« river mouth, valley » :_
==>Spain : Ebro river, *Iber*ian people
==>Germany: more than 80 villages names with the prefix “eber”


*Basque (h)*aran* “valley”:
==>England: Arundel
==>Norway: Arendal
==> Germany: Villages with the prefix “Arn”

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## spongetaro

*Basque : *behi* « cow » and *behor* « mare » from_*beh-_ « female animal »/ bourouchaski *behé* «female animal»
*Basque: *hagin* « teeth » / hunzib (north east Caucasus) *hagin* « teeth» 
*Basque : *bizar* « beard » / dravidian : *isal* « moustache »
*Basque: *ile* « hair » / dravidian *ile* « hair »
*the word *wine* is all over in europe derived from *wain (greek woinos, latin. vinum, breton gwin…)which is close to the proto-semitic form. Basque has completely different word *ardan*_-_ « wine, grape vine » which is close to Davidian (*ardn* "berry").
*Dravidian *guti*_,kuti_ "small" / Basque *guti* "few, small".
*Basque *eme* « female » and *ar* « male » / Mongol *eme* « female » / *ar* « male » 
*the Dragon in the Basque mythology is called “*Herensuge*” with “*suge*” meaning snake=> the dragon “*Erenkyl*” in the Yakut Mythology with “*Kyl*” meaning snake

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## Regulus

> Another aspect is that you might want to consider is that meanings of words may change, but cognates nontheless still exist, albeit with a shifted meaning. For instance, the Gaulish word for horse is "Epos", but the cognates in modern Welsh ("Ebol") and Breton ("Ebeul") actually mean 'foal'.


 
Fair enough. A sort of reverse example is 'equus' for horse being dropped for most puposes and 'caval'(from caballus), which means 'nag' or a less than perfect specimen (of horse), finding its way into the vernacular for referring to a horse in general.

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## Taranis

> [FONT=Arial]*Basque *ibar* _« river mouth, valley » :_
> ==>Spain : Ebro river, *Iber*ian people
> ==>Germany: more than 80 villages names with the prefix “*eber*”


I don't think that "Eber" is a cognate with Basque "Ibar", because it's the German word for "boar".

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## LeBrok

> Fair enough. A sort of reverse example is 'equus' for horse being dropped for most puposes and 'caval'(from caballus), which means 'nag' or a less than perfect specimen (of horse), finding its way into the vernacular for referring to a horse in general.


I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.

Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
cabal-koval (black smith)
quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)

All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.

Where does the english horse come from then?

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## LeBrok

Taranis posted it in other thread:



> For example, there's cognates for Latin "mela" and Greek "melo" in the Celtic languages: Gaulish "meliđđus", Irish "milis" and Welsh "melys", all which have the meaning "sweet".


This might be pre-indoeuropean, same like honey which in old english was mead, polish - miod, and similar for many languages. Sorry, don't have time now to check others.

Intriguing are the simple tastes:
English Polish
sweet słotki (ł = w)
solt sol

This all might be pre-indoearopean, and related more with I haplo.

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## Taranis

> I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.
> 
> Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
> cabal-koval (black smith)
> quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)
> 
> All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.
> 
> Where does the english horse come from then?


It should be added that the Celtic languages have a cognate for Latin "Caballus": in Gaulish "Caballos" and in modern Welsh "Ceffyl" (Conversely, Latin "Equus" is obviously a cognate with Gaulish "Epos").

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## Reinaert

This isn't getting anywhere.

English is a rather young language, and has many words from other languages.
Another point is the English speaking people lack a lot of knowledge of other languages.

So that's the reason for a lot of gobbledegook.

Just take the primitive words. Those who existed first.

A primitive house was built by weaving twigs between wooden poles.

In Dutch.. Weven.. In English weaving.

But also in Dutch: Wenden .. Means to move in a different direction.
It has a word as: "Wand" as a product. A wooden wall..
In German that is also the case.. "Die Wand" and also the word for woven cloth.. "Gewand"

In Dutch a stone brick wall is a "muur" and that is from Latin.

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## how yes no 2

> *Sardinian (Nuoro region) *gorru* "red"/ basque *gorri* « red »


Serbian "gori" = is burning




> [FONT=Arial]*Basque *ibar* _« river mouth, valley » :_
> ==>Spain : Ebro river, *Iber*ian people


There is river Ibar in Serbia, and river Tiber in Italy
name of Tiber is suggested to be perhaps related to Celtic root *du*br*on" - water
btw. Iberian would be about river people?




> But also in Dutch: Wenden .. Means to move in a different direction.


that may be related to word "wind" in english, as wind moves in all direction

Wenden/Wends was used by Germanic people for Slavs, I think it is still used in Germany for Slavic Sorbs...
Slavic people are according to Jordanes from race of Veneti
Venti = wind gods in Roman mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi)

and we do find Veneti named tribes in very distant areas - in Britanny (Celtic Veneti), around Vistula (Vistula Veneti), on north shores of Adriatic (Adriatic Veneti), in Paphlagonia (Eneti), above Black sea (Antes and Sarmatian Venedi)

btw. in Serbian to move in all direction(for people) or to walk around - "skitati" 
which resembles tribal name Scythian

so, this maybe about how haplogroups R1b and I1 saw R1a and I2 people - ones who move around, or in all direction...
e.g. in Roman writings, Germania was about area where people settled in houses, Sarmatia was about area where people lived nomad style of life...

e.g. Tacitus about Vistula Veneti



> The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini [Germanic-speakers north of Dacia] and the Fenni [Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers of Finland and the eastern Baltic]. Nevertheless, *they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses*, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti



> Serbian and general South Slavic word for mountain-*pla*nina.
> Etimology- root *pel-. as words plonina in polish and polonina in ukraine meaning something what is full ( not empty).
> The same root as nordic Fjell in the same meaning-mountain.


that might be I haplogroup word...

btw. PIE **plu*- (numerous) hence e.g. *pl*ural / *pl*enty /*full* in english
from that in Serbian
*pl*odno - fruitfull, 
Slavic *po*lno / Serbian puno,- *pl*enty /full

but in Serbian and perhaps other Slavic languages 'pl' has also connotation to water and water related motion
*pl*avo - *bl*ue
*plo*viti - to *fl*ow, 
*pla*kati - to cry
*pl*juvati - to spit, 
po*pl*ava/(po)*pl*aviti - *fl*ood/to flood

also to *fl*uent motion
*pl*esati- to dance, *pli*vati -to swim, *pl*etenje - knitting

and there is also in*fl*uence of Illyrian
Illyrian plo- (strong, powerful)	
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm

Serbian *plo*ca- big flat stone (e.g made of concrete) 





> In other slavic languages word for mountain is Gora or Hora.


Gora is used in Serbian as well but is somewhat arhaic...
it is derived from word 'gore' - up

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## Neander

> There is *river Ibar in Serbia*, and river Tiber in Italy
> name of Tiber is suggested to be perhaps related to Celtic root *du*br*on" - water
> btw. Iberian would be about river people?


It is a strong reason, why I said to you "go read something about illyrians".

Do you know how was called *Ibar* in the ancient times???

And do you know two other countries where Ibar flow??? It is nmot only Serbia!!!

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## Reinaert

> I can see the Horse connection between Slavic and Latin/Romans.
> 
> Caballio-Kobyła (ł = w in english)
> cabal-koval (black smith)
> quus - kłus, kłusak (read kwus) (trot - fast horse walk, or special horse that runs only this way.)
> 
> All together gives strong indoeuropean roots.
> 
> Where does the english horse come from then?


The English word "horse" is somewhat the same as the old Dutch word "ros" for a horse.

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## iapodos

List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)

kamen, kam- stone, rock
zemlja- ground, soil
vatra- fire
reka- river (Baskian word arreca)
šuma- forest, wood
riba- fish
žaba- frog
vlasi-hair
telo-body
mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)
granica- frontier, border (from Germanic substrate)
led-ice
šljiva- plum (from Germanic substrate-sleuwe,sloe)
hrast- oak , sacred tree of old Slavs, today known among Serbs as Christmass evening tree- Badnjak

It is obvious that common words for hunter gatherers and their economy were preserved in new languages.

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## Neander

> vatra- fire


Albanian word, borowing.

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## how yes no 2

> Albanian word, borowing.


word for fire is very very basic word and is in tribes for very very long time... people do not get it from neighbors in recent history...

"vatra" is word that I could in google translate find only in serbo-croat
google translate doesnot give any "vatra" like word for translation of english "fire" into Albanian... it does give Zjarr which is loan word from Slavic žar/požár into Albanian...

what exactly is Albanian word that you relate word "vatra" to, and what exactly is its meaning?

closest match to 'vatra' that I could find is:
Avestan - "âtre-"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages




> Avestan (pronounced /əˈvɛstən/[1]) is an East Iranian language known only from its use as the language of Zoroastrian scripture, i.e. the Avesta, from which it derives its name. The *Yaz* culture[2] has been regarded as a likely *archaeological reflection of early East Iranian culture as described in the Avesta*. Its status as a *sacred language* has ensured its continuing use for new compositions long after the language had ceased to be a living language.
> ...
> Avestan, which is associated with northeastern Iran and Old Persian, which belongs to the southwest, plus Gathic or the Old Avestan (language of the Gathas, the Hymns of Zarathushtra - 2nd millennium BC) are the only languages (of what must have been a great variety) to have left written traces; they together constitute what is called the *Old Iranian Languages*.[3][f 1] The Old Iranian language group is a branch of the Indo-Iranian language group, which is in turn a branch of the Indo-European language group.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_language

Yaziges are Sarmatians
this ofcourse doesnot necesserily indicate that Serbs and Croats are Sarmatians..
if I look at other Avestan words in short list given on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages I do not really find too many words alike to Serbo-Croat....

but 'vatra' is interesting link, as it is not present in other Slavic languages... nor in iranian languages other than Avestan...

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## Neander

> what exactly is Albanian word that you relate word "vatra" to, and what exactly is its meaning?


This is from albganian dictionary, which you have not in your bibliothec.
VATËR f. sh. 
1. Vendi rrëzë oxhakut, pak si i thelluar, i shtruar me rrasa guri, me pllaka etj., ku ndizet zjarri. Vatra e zjarrit. Rri pranë vatrës. Mblidhemi rreth vatrës. U ul në krye 
të vatrës. 
2. Pjesa e poshtme e furrës, e farkës; e sobës etj., ku ndizen e digjen drutë, qymyri etj. Vatra e furrës (e farkës). 
3. Hapësirë fare e vogël, vend i ngushtë sa për të ndezur zjarr; lehe, vulla. Një vatër vend. Kishte mbjellë një vatër qepë. 
4. fig. Shtëpia ku kemi lindur e jemi rritur, ku banon familja a ku kanë jetuar të parët tanë brez pas brezi; familja; kryes. sh. vendi ku kemi lindur e jetojmë, vendlindja. 
Vatër e dashur (e shtrenjtë). Vatra atërore (prindërore). Vatra e të parëve ( e stërgjyshërve).Vëllezër të një vatre vëllezër që kanë lindur e janë rritur në një shtëpi. 
Mik vatre mik i afërt, mik i shtëpisë. Në çdo vatër. Mbeti pa vatër. Njeri pa strehë e pa vatër. Më merr malli për vatrën time. I ra fatkeqësia në vatër. Mbrojmë 
vatrat tona. Lënë vatrat e tyre. Armiku na shkeli (na shkatërroi) vatrat tona. 
5. fig. Vendi ku lind e zhvillohet diçka, vendi prej nga vjen a përhapet diçka, burimi i diçkaje; vendi a pika që tërheq vëmendjen më të madhe; qendra e një 
veprimtarie a e diçkaje tjetër; çerdhe; djep. Vatër revolucionare (patriotike). Vatër e rëndësishme e luftës çlirimtare. Vatër shkencore (kulturore). Vatër kulture 
(përparimi). Vatër e edukimit revolucionar. Vatër e lëvizjes popullore. Vatra e kryengritjes (e qëndresës). Vatër agresioni (konflikti, lufte). Vatra e tërmetit (e 
vullkanit). Vatër epidemie (infektimi). 
6. fiziol. Qendra e një veprimtarie nervore. Vatra e nxitjes (e frenimit). Vatrat e sistemit nervor. 
7. mjek. Vendi në trupin e një njeriu ose të një kafshe të sëmurë, që është qendra e qelbëzimit, e mahisjes ose e një sëmundjeje tjetër. Vatër tuberkulozi. Vatër 
qelbi. Zbuloi (zhduku) vatrën e sëmundjes. 
8. fiz., opt. Pika ku kryqëzohen a priten rrezet e një tufe drite, pasi kjo të ketë përshkuar një thjerrzë ose të jetë kthyer nga një pasqyrë e përkulur. Vatër shembëllimi. 
Vatra e pasqyrës (e thjerrzës). Vatra e xhamit zmadhues. 
9. gjeom. Pikë e diametrit kryesor të elipsës etj., që ka veti të veçanta kundrejt pikave të lakores. Vatrat e elipsës. Largësia midis vatrave. 
10. përd. ndajf. (në bashkëvajtje me një). Shumë, tufë. Ka një vatër fëmijë. Është me një vatër kalamaj. Erdhën një vatër mysafirë (miq). 
* Në krye (në qoshe) të vatrës në vendin më të nderuar, në krye të vendit. I thau vatrën shih te THAJ. Është bërë gjysh në vatër shih te GJYSH,~I. I daltë hithra në 
vatër! mallk. shih te HIDH/ËR,~RA. Ishte me dy krënde në vatër shih te KRËND,~I. Jam një zjarr e një vatër me dikë shih te ZJARR,~I 2. Nxjerr ujë në vatër dikush 
a) s'lë gjë pa trazuar e pa prishur, s'lë dy gurë bashkë, është shumë i prapë (thuhet sidomos për fëmijët); 
b) është shumë i zoti. Lopa në mal, përsheshi në vatër (në xham) fj.u. shih te LOP/Ë,~A. Vatër kulture institucion që merret me organizimin e drejtimin e 
veprimtarisë kulturore e artistike në një fshat të vogël.

In english:

1. The place where you light fire.
2. The low piece, (bottom) of the oven.
3. Such a small place where you can do only light a small fire.
4. Homeland, home where I was born, home where we live.

These, four first meanings are originall, and others are related to science.

Alexander Stipceviq, link the word vatra to the Illyrians. 

Vatra is not found among others slavs, only among slavs who settled in dinaric lands.

----------


## how yes no 2

but that is not fire, that is place where you make fire, which is in english called 'hearth'
google translate for 'hearth' gives "Vatră" in Romanian

word has same form same meaning in Romanian and Albanian, but somewhat different meaning in Serbo-Croat and Avestan...

Sarmatian Yaziges/Jaziges/ lazyges or Iasi origin from Avestan speaking area, and later lived in Pannonia but also in east Romania...




> The Iazyges first make their appearance along the Sea of Azov, known to the Ancient Greeks and Romans as the Maeotis. For this reason they are referred to by the geographer Ptolemy as the Iazyges Metanastae. From there, the Jazyges moved west along the shores of the Black Sea to what is now *Moldova* and the southwestern Ukraine.
> They served as allies of Mithradates VI Eupator, king of Pontus (in what is now North-Western Turkey), in his wars against the Romans (c. 88-84 BC). In 78-76 BC, the Romans sent a punitive expedition over the Danube in an attempt to overawe the Jazyges.
> The prime enemy of Rome along the lower Danube at this time were the Dacians. In 7 BC *when the Dacian kingdom built up by Burebista began to collapse, the Romans* took advantage and *encouraged the Jazyges to settle in the Pannonian plain, between the Danube and the Tisza* (Theiss) Rivers.
> They were divided into freemen and *serfs* (Sarmatae Limigantes). These serfs had a different manner of life and were probably an *older settled population, enslaved by nomadic masters. They rose against them in 34 AD, but were repressed by foreign aid.*
> The Romans wanted to finish off Dacia, but the Iazyges refused to cooperate. The Iazyges remained nomads, herding their cattle across what is now southern Romania every summer to water them along the Black Sea; a Roman conquest of Dacia would cut that route. The *Roman emperor Domitian became so concerned* with the Iazyges that he interrupted a campaign against Dacia to harass *them and the Suebi,* a Germanic tribe also *dwelling along the Danube*.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges


if Avestan is primary source of the word, word could have taken different roads to Serbo-Croat where it preserves original meaning and Albanian and Romanian where it has somewhat altered meaning...

there are few possible explanations:
1) Serbs and Croats inherited word from Sarmatians (Yaziges origin from Avestan area)
2) Albanians and Romanians lived much closer to each other in past
3) all got word from Illyrians (whose relation to word is completely unknown), but original meaning is preserved in Serbo-Croat and distorted meaning in Romanian and Albanian

it is possible that all explanations are correct... but note that we have no clue whether word existed in Illyrian, while we know that Jaziges archeologically origin from Avestan speaking area... so what is more probable source: Iaziges or Illyrian?

now, if it is Iaziges
how did word come into Albanian?
are we sure that Albanian language has anything to do with Illyrian?
few preserved Illyrian words are completely alien to Albanian (for match both word and meaning need to match which is not the case)

----------


## Neander

> are we sure that Albanian language has anything to do with Illyrian?


If you still dont understand the fact that now it is late to contradict illyrian conection to albanians, I will not respond to your spam posts.

Illyrian origin of albanians, and illyrian origin of albanian language naow is proof.

It must be the base of our debate. There are a lot of books which you must read firstly, before posting such childish posts.

----------


## how yes no 2

> If you still dont understand the fact that now it is late to contradict illyrian conection to albanians, I will not respond to your spam posts.
> 
> Illyrian origin of albanians, and illyrian origin of albanian language naow is proof.
> 
> It must be the base of our debate. There are a lot of books which you must read firstly, before posting such childish posts.


on contrary, I think that Albanians do genetically origin from Illyrians, not from all Illyrians though but from Illyrian tribes Scirtari and Uscans...but I am sure Albanian language is not match with few preserved Illyrian words....

there can be many explanations for that

knowing that




> I shall first describe *Illyria*, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
> The *Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci,* Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ *Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes.* The *Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci,* while the Scordisci were frequently their allies. 
> The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=
Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

it can be that later arrival of perhaps not populous but culturally and military dominant tribe gave Albanian language and culture... (Dardanians are candidate for such a tribe, but also Dacians as they did destroy Illyrians and probably set their ruling ellite)

alternative explanation is that e.g. Illyria was only sparselly populated by Illyrians in Roman times when words are probably recorded... as it is known that Illyrians were destroyed by Dacians in their wars with Celts...

thus, in fact Albanians can be Illyrians genetically, but Dacians linguistically
as is also indicated by unexpectedly large shared vocabulary between Romania and Albania (including word "vatra" with meaning 'hearth')

----------


## Reinaert

Well, I agree. Some people and/or clans/tribes could easily switch to another language. 
Northern France and the southern part of Belgium switched into French.



> In Gallo-Roman France, a split occurred between north and south, assisted by incursions of Germanic-speaking Franks--whence the name "France"--into the north. Here, too, further dialectalization occurred throughout the Middle Ages, resulting in a multitude of speech forms such as Francien, Picard, Norman, Lorrain, and Walloon. Southern French, or Provençal, split into Languedocien, Auvergnat, and many other dialects. The dialect of Paris gradually became the national language, however, because of the political prestige of the capital and today is accepted as the model for the French language.


Source:
http://www.discoverfrance.net/France...language.shtml
The Franks didn't speak French when they first arrived in France.
My ancestors seem to have done the opposite. 
Lost their Celtic language in favor of the Germanic Dutch.
Some Celtic clans moved into Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Southern England, and some kept their Celtic language variants.
Funny part is, the Belgae are mentioned in Southern England. 
It seems that has been predicted by the "Asterix and Obelix" stories.  :Grin:

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## Haganus

When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!

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## Wilhelm

> When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
> The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!


The romans already talked about the Belgae livin in Britain, therefore they arrived way before the Anglo-Saxons

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## Taranis

> When did the Belgae arrive in Great Britain? Maybe with the Anglo-Saxons?
> The Belgae probably were Germanic tribes!


First off, what Wilhelm said: they arrived in Britain before the Roman period.

Regarding their ethnicity, in my opinion (and this is well backed up by typonomic evidence), the vast bulk of the Belgae were actually Celtic-speaking peoples, akin to the Gauls and the Britons.

----------


## iapetoc

> List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)
> 
> kamen, kam- stone, rock
> zemlja- ground, soil
> vatra- fire
> reka- river (Baskian word arreca)
> šuma- forest, wood
> riba- fish
> žaba- frog
> ...



Vatra is simmilar ancient Greek , in fact word Thracian means Vatra 
coal for fire An*thra*x, ashes an*thrak*-ia, the burning coals *Thrak*-a, the stove the fireplace *Thrak*-a

reka simmilar Greek ρεμα from ροη Flux of water (virb ρε-ω the move of liguid to go down)

Tsuma is also simmilar cause we find it in Greece also *but* as a glade in the forest trees,
a hole in the forest with Thisanos (bush) in mountain GR Makedonian Thessaly and Thracian Tzuma,
Probably Thracian, siimilar Greek thisanos thassos, area full of bushes

Mac is simmilar in Greek from Μαχαιρα, Μαχη mach = batle αιρω = raise 
Machera means the one that is raised in Battle

Granitsa is very old cause we find it in Greek and minor asia as
Granikos (Γρανικος = border river)

seems like non slavic words are connecting Balkans

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## Reinaert

> List of serbian and slavic words with non-indoeuropeans roots (Possible I haplogroup language words)
> 
> vlasi-hair
> 
> mač-sword (from Germanic substrate)


Two words I can match with Dutch and German.

Vlasi-hair Vlas (Dutch) Flachs (German) ---> English Flax
A plant that is used to make threads to weave linen fabric.
In old Dutch it was said that people with blond hair had "Flax hair".

It may be interesting to study the use of flax or wool by different tribes.
Wool seems to be a more Celtic material.

mač May have something in common with Mes (Dutch) Messer (German) 
English Knife.

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## Taranis

I've decided to pick something which may be a tad more representative, and at the same time it shows up some problems. For one, I selected only three words comparison, namely iron, silver and gold. For the sake of making the map not too crammed, I dumped all the Romance languages in favour of just Latin. For the sake of completeness, here's the summary of the Romance languages:

*Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian*
Ferro - Hierro - Ferro - Fer - Ferro - Fier
Prata - Plata - Plata - Argent - Argento - Argint
Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur

Otherwise, here's the languages I used (note that the list both includes extant and extinct):

Celtic languages:
- Irish
- Welsh
- Breton
- Gaulish (note that the word for gold is, to my knowledge, unattested, it can however be reconstructed with reasonable safety as "Auron").

Germanic languages:
- English
- Dutch
- German
- Danish
- Norwegian
- Swedish
- Gothic

Slavic languages:
- Czech
- Polish
- Croatian
- Bulgarian
- Russian
- Ukrainian

Other IE languages:
- Latvian
- Lithuanian
- Latin
- Albanian
- Greek
- Hittite (note that Hittite had no word for iron)

Non-IE languages:
- Basque
- Finnish

What is very interesting here is this:

- in regard for gold and silver, Germanic uses the same root word as Baltic and Slavic (in common Balto-Slavic, G was rendered Z, hence "Zelta" vs. "Gold"). The Finnish word for "gold" apparently seems also be a cognate with Germanic.

- The Germanic words for iron are derived from Celtic "Isarnos" (in fact, I was amazed how similar Gothic "Isarn" is to Gaulish "Isarnos"!), which makes perfect sense since the Germanic people adopted iron working from the Celtic Hallstatt Culture.

- Celtic, Latin, Greek and Albanian use the same root word for silver. It must be added that Albanian may have borrowed the word from Latin.

- Basque, Celtic, Latin and Albanian apparently use the same root word for gold.

- What is very interesting is the Basque word for "iron" (Burdina), which raises the question, where did they get their iron from?

- What is very unfortunate is that I couldn't find Etruscan or Dacian words for any of the three.

EDIT: I should add that technically, this does not belong into genetics but linguistics...

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## LeBrok

Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.

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## Taranis

> Cool stuff. Teranis, can you add copper and bronze to the map? We might see some early influences.


Thanks. And yes, I can definitely do that, but I probably won't do so tonight...  :Sleepy:

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## Taranis

I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:

- the *Celtiberian* word for silver is attested as "*arkanta*".

- the *Thracian* word for gold is attested as "*saldas*" (compare Baltic/Slavic).

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## Neander

It is interesting int Italian "copper" is RAME, and in Albanian REM. What do you think?

And in Arabian language iron is called HADID, does it has any link to Hetits??

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## Reinaert

Why not add the words for stone?

In English.. "Flintstone" 
In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp. 
In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm 

Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone. 
(Vuursteen) 

Flintstone was used together with iron objects to make fire.
Very long after the use of flintstone weapons.

----------


## Taranis

> Why not add the words for stone?
> 
> In English.. "Flintstone" 
> In Dutch we use the word "Flinterdun" Which means very thin and sharp.
> In Southern Dutch we know the word "Vlim" for a fish bone. Thin and sharp. 
> In Dutch we also know the word "vlijmscherp". So it is.. Flint.. Vlim .. Vlijm 
> 
> Funny is, the English word translated back and forth from Dutch happens to be Firestone. 
> (Vuursteen) 
> ...


(by the way, I'm sorry it's not finished yet)

I'm not sure how useful "stone" would be. The iron-silver-gold comparison gave a rather coherent pattern, but from what I have thus far same cannot be quite said in resport for copper-tin-bronze. What also seems apparent to me is that the word "bronze" is actually a relatively new one, and that many ancient cultures apparently used "copper" and "bronze" rather interchangably.

----------


## how yes no 2

> I will post an upgraded map later tonight (regarding copper/bronze), but before I do, I have an addition to the first map, namely two very interesting terms:
> - the *Celtiberian* word for silver is attested as "*arkanta*".
> - the *Thracian* word for gold is attested as "*saldas*" (compare Baltic/Slavic).


Portuguese - Spanish - Catalonian - French - Italian - Romanian
Ouro - Oro - Or - Or - Oro - Aur
Celtiberian arkanta
Albanian ar
Basque urre
Hungarian arany
Welsh aur
Irish or

Thracian saldas
Latvian zelta 
Slovenian zlata
Serbian/Croatian/Macedonian/Czech/Slovak/Bulgarian zlato
Russian zoloto
Belorissian zolata
Polish zloto

Norwegian gull
Finish kulta
Estonian kuld
Danish/Swedish guld
English/german gold
Dutch goud


Lithuanian auksas

Armenian voski

Greek chrysós

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## Taranis

Err... Celtiberian "Arkanta" means *silver*, not gold.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Err... Celtiberian "Arkanta" means *silver*, not gold.


latin argentum
CeltoIberian arkanta
Albanian argjend
Irish airgid
Romanian argint
French d'argent
Italian argento

Croatian/Serbian/Macedonian/Bulgarian Srebro
Belorussian srebra
Russian serebra
Polish srebrny
Slovenian srebrna
Czech stříbrná
Slovak strieborná

Lithuanian sidabras
Latvian sudraba

Estonian hõbe
Finish hopea

Dutch zilver
Swedish/English silver
German Silber
Norwegian/Danish sølv

Basque zilarrezko

Welsh arian

Spanish plata
Portuguese prata

----------


## Taranis

I have updated the iron-silver-gold map to include the Romance languages, as well as Thracian.

In the attachment, there is the (promised) list for the words copper, tin and bronze.

Languages I used are:

Celtic languages:
- Irish
- Welsh
- Breton
- Gaulish (note that the word "Cassos" may have been used interchangably for tin and bronze, also the word for copper is reconstructed)

Romance/Italic languages:
- Portuguese
- Asturian (I would normally not have included, but see below)
- Spanish
- Catalonian
- French
- Latin (inside the mini bracket)
- Italian
- Romanian

Germanic languages:
- English
- Dutch
- German
- Danish
- Norwegian
- Swedish
- Gothic (note that the words for tin and bronze are unattested)

Slavic languages:
- Czech
- Polish
- Croat
- Bulgarian
- Russian
- Ukrainian

Other IE:
- Albanian
- Greek
- Latvian
- Lithuanian
- (unfortunately, all these words appear unattested in Hittite)

Non-IE:
- Basque
- Finnish

Generally said, in Antiquity the usage of "copper" and "bronze" (or even "bronze" and "tin") was not well-defined, and, as far as I can tell, the usage of the word "bronze" for a specific alloy is relatively new.

- There's an unexpected amount of variety for "bronze" in the Celtic languages.

- Gothic "Aiz" (copper) appears to be a cognate with Latin "Aes" (bronze, but also "ore").

- The reason I included Asturian in this list is because it's word for copper is obviously a cognate with Breton word for bronze. This suggests that the Asturian word may be a borrowing from Celtiberian.

- Against the previous homogenity of the Slavic languages, there's a variety within the Slavic family in regard for the word for "tin": West Slavic (like Czech and Slovak) use cognates with Germanic (which may be the result of Germanic substrate), East Slavic use a cognate with Baltic, and Bulgarian uses a cognate with Albanian.

----------


## iapetoc

taranis in ancient Greek bronze was also Κουπρος Cyprus cumbri
as Kupros 
chalkos is the other name

copper as mineral and early metallurgy is *Cyprus, Kupros* in Greek not chalkos
*chalkos* is when mix with other to became stronger krateros
tin is kassiteros 
tin with copper is krateroma or Ορειχαλκος oreichalkos
bronze is also in Greek language as Bruntzos but it is not Greek

exceptance if comes from Cubri-seo and became bronzo

the pelasgic word is Κουπρος kupros Kypros similar Cyprus (the bigest copper area of Europe) Cimbri Kopra etc

so plz enter Kypros beside chalkos ty

kalai kalaj in balkans is not correct comes Turkish kalay although in use today 
it is in use also in greek as kalai but it is not European but Turkish word

Baker also is Turkish name for copper

just for the reccord

----------


## Taranis

> taranis in ancient Greek bronze was also Κουπρος Cyprus cumbri
> as Kupros 
> chalkos is the other name


Ah yes, thanks for pointing that out. I sort of knew that this was going to be a problem since I took modern Greek, which after all has a fair bit of considerable differences to classical Greek.

----------


## iapetoc

No problem 
and your work is remarkable

----------


## how yes no 2

> - Against the previous homogenity of the Slavic languages, there's a variety within the Slavic family in regard for the word for "tin": West Slavic (like Czech and Slovak) use cognates with Germanic (which may be the result of Germanic substrate), East Slavic use a cognate with Baltic, and Bulgarian uses a cognate with Albanian.


Serbian 
copper - bakar
tin - lim / kalaj 
bronze - bronza
lead - olovo 


bakar we find only among ex-Yugoslavia people, Albanians,Greek (δεκάρα), and turkish (bakır)...
so it can be old Balkan and Asia minor word for copper...

----------


## Taranis

> Serbian also uses cognates with Bulgarian and Albanian
> bakar
> kalaj 
> bronza
> bakar is interesting as we find it only among ex-Yugoslavia people and Albanians..word might be Illyrian in origin


I agree about that assessment regarding bakar/bakra/baker, it might indeed be a borrowing from Illyrian.




> No problem 
> and your work is remarkable


Thanks.

----------


## how yes no 2

> I thought that, but than I found out via google translate that word also exist in Greek and Turkish as well... btw. in mean time I saw that word also exist in Bulgarian
> 
> so it covers much wider area than Illyrians...
> 
> with tin / kalaj is similar...
> 
> btw. Serbia and Croatia have word 'lim' for tin, which seems unique... (word "lim" is much more used in Serbia than "kalaj"..."kalaj" I know mostly from some funny phrase "Sunce ti kalajisano" that is literary saying someone that his Sun is tinned...and is used as a way to express being angry with that someone because something that person did or said...e.g. if someone who you feel friendliness for tricks you... I guess tinned Sun has a meaning that his friendship was fake Sun and not real one...)
> google translate for Serbo-Croatian "lim" gives "tin" in Slovenia and "kalaj" in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Turkey..


EDIT:
chemical element is called Kalaj in Serbia..I have just checked that...
it's just not so common word in everyday language...
"lim" is same as Blech in German

----------


## Taranis

> I thought that, but than I found out via google translate that word also exist in Greek and Turkish as well... btw. in mean time I saw that word also exist in Bulgarian
> 
> so it covers much wider area than Illyrians...
> 
> with tin / kalaj is similar...
> 
> btw. Serbia and Croatia have word 'lim' for tin, which seems unique... (word "lim" is much more used than "kalaj"..."kalaj" I know mostly from some funny phrase "Sunce ti kalajisano" that is literary saying someone that his Sun is tinned...and is used as a way to express being angry with that someone because something that person did or said...e.g. if someone tricks you...)
> google translate for Serbo-Croatian "lim" gives "tin" in Slovenia and "kalaj" in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Turkey..


Actually, with that hint that it's also found in Turkish, I went looking further and found the most probable origin: "Kalaj"/"Kalai" must be borrowings in Macedonian, Bulgarian and Albanian that more probably stem from the Ottoman period, hence the word is originally of Turkish origin. Specifically, there's also cognates readily found in Kazakh (Kalai) and Uzbek (Qalay).

----------


## how yes no 2

"lead"

Serbia, Croatia and Bulgaria - olovo (same word is used for tin in Russia and Ukraine and similar in Belorussia, Lithuania, Latvia)

Czech - vedení / olovo
Slovak - vedenie /olovo
Macedonia - vodi
Polish - prowadzić /olow
Russia - privesti /svinec
Belarus - pryviesci
Ukraine - pryvesty /svinec

Slovenian - svinca
Lithuanian - švino
Latvian - svina

Estonian - kaasa

Dutch - leiden
english - lead
irish - luaidhe
Korean - lideu


German - führen
Basque - beruna

Turkish - kurşun
Azerbaijani - qurğuşun

Danish/Swedes - bly

Albanian - plumbi
Catalan - plom
Spanish - plomo 
Italian - piombo

French - entraîner

latin - ducere

Finish - johtaa

Welsh - arweiniol

Armenian - tanel (reminds on west european tin)

----------


## Taranis

A nitpick there. The German word for lead (the element) is "Blei". "Führen" means "to _lead_".  :Embarrassment:

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## how yes no 2

> A nitpick there. The German word for lead (the element) is "Blei". "Führen" means "to _lead_".


yes, well blame Google translate...
and for me not noticing, blame my teacher of German in high school that was very mild person and thus not able to press us to actually learn the language... though looking at word it is obviously verb and not noun...probably related to fahren - to drive, and of course to Führer which probably means leader...

----------


## willy

> I have updated the iron-silver-gold map to include the Romance languages, as well as Thracian.
> 
> In the attachment, there is the (promised) list for the words copper, tin and bronze.
> 
> Languages I used are:
> 
> Celtic languages:
> - Irish
> - Welsh
> ...


And the Indo Iranian (Indo European language also) Ossetians from Caucasus !

----------


## how yes no 2

I was wondering whether there are words who were tribal names that later became everyday speaking words with meaning that reflects some characteristic observed as typical for member of that tribe.......
hm, the following is just list of wild guesses...
1. Sardonic 



> expression of derision, cynicism or skeptical humor variously through comment, gesture or writing.[1][2]


cynicism and skeptical humor are so very typical for Serbs...

2. ancient times in Slavic = antika...
perhaps reminder on distant period of Eneti/Veneti tribal name

english word 'antic' however
- clown, clown around, act in a funny or teasing way, fantastic, fantastical, grotesque, strange, unusual 

thus, Slavic and english words would respectively be reflections of self-designation in past times, and of view on some foreign (thus strange/funny) people

3. Taurus as bull 

due to Taurisci tribe (Rasena in own language of Etruscan who are by Greeks called Tyrsenians and who origin from part of Lydia or near it, probably from Taurus area...)... 

could it be that Taurisci had helmets with horns....

reason to propose is that sea people such as Sherdana and others from roughly same areas did carry horns on helmets...

another clue is that alternative name of Serbs is Rascians, which is identical in origin as Rasena of Etruscan, and is tribal name that perhaps also origin from Taurus area, probably via Thrace that is derivation of same tribal name.... relation is that Sherdana who wear horned helmet left toponyms Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt...

the way I imagine it is that Rasena people with horned helmets were by ancient proto-Greeks called 
TiR(a)sen-ians in times before bull was domesticated in Greece.... than in Greek language bull got name as reminding on those people...

similarly, Slavic word 'Bik' (bull) might origin from horned helmets of ancient Vikings...

4. word 'germ' as derived from barbarians bordering Roman empire, thus Germans or German dominated people of Europe being considered not hygienic compared to Romans...

5. Angli tribal name given due to blond features resembling mythical mention of angelic beings...or other way around

6. words "servant" and "slave" in english due to Serbs and Slavs being enemy of Germanic people and thus origin for their stock of slaves... according to Strabo, similarly in Greece slaves were named based on tribal names like Dacians, Getae... note that usage of tribal names Serbs and Sclaveni as related to words for slaves in Germanic languages also indicate living in close proximity...

7. dutch 'Wenden' ..to move in a different direction.
dutch 'Wandelen' - to wonder around... due to Wends/Venedi/Veneti people being nomads.. also Wind in Germanic, and Venti italian name for Greek wind gods....as wind is moving in different direction

8. Serbo-Croat word 'skitnica' - person who spends life walking around
as based on Scythians being nomads....
this with previous indicates that to Germanic people Slavic people (who are of Veneti race and also named Venedi and Wends by late Germanic people) living east of them were synonim for nomads, but that to Slavic people Scythians living east of them were synonym for nomads...

9. Croat word "kuna" used for marten can be based on tribal name of Huns...
Croats used marten skin as money, same as Huns did... today Croatian money is called "kuna" (marten)

10. word "kilt" as Celtic heritage and derived from word Celt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt

11. word 'frankly' - in truth, in direct, honest way... due to Franks?

12. (south-)Slavic word "fin" - polite, honest, fine - due to Finish?

13. Slavic "Nemci" for Germans
derived from Slavic "Nem" = mute

14. Greek name Illyrians for people north of them perhaps due to 'Lyre'- like music instrument e.g. gusle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusle that are used througout Illyrian area of influence (south Slavs + Albanians) and used while singing epic songs... or other way around - instrument 'Lyre' named after Illyrians... 

interestingly, alike instrument in Kazakhs is named Kobyz, which sounds as derived from Serbs tribal name... 
Bulgarian word is Gadulka perhaps related to Goths or Getae...Russian Gudok might also be related to Goths or Getae....

another string instrument thus similar to Lyre is Harp, which might be related to H(a)rvat (Croat tribal name) and thus also to gusle/lyra...

Albanian name "lahuta" is a borrowing from the Romanian lute - lauta.... lute may come from Slavic tribe Lutici or from Baltic Latvia (Lettonia in Romanian)... 

south Slavic 'gusle' is not related to any tribal name which indicates it was not imported from some other nation... closest word alike 'gusle' is guska = goose...perhaps sound of instrument can be seen as somewhat resembling sound of goose...

interestingly Romanian name is same as south Slavic - guzlă, which taken together with different words used in Russian and Bulgarian indicates 'gusle' being original name of the instrument...

related Czech word 'housle' means violin, thus again string instrument...

this indicates that I2a2 dominant Slavic people (remember that Slavic people are of Veneti origin) are more related to Illyrians than E-V13 dominant Albanians... in addition, Slavic words are much better match in meaning to those words preserved from Illyrian whose meaning is known, than Albanian words are... 

early Slavs as Venetic tribe are Illyrian related.... language of Albanians shows relation to Romanians and might be Dacian derived... which is explainable with Dacians according to Strabo depopulating Illyria in their wars with Celtic people....




> Quote:
> I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
> The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies. 
> The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

this historical record clearly shows that Illyria was depopulated but not by Slavs (as erroneously claimed by politically motivated ideologists of Albanian nationalism), but by Dacians much much before arrival of Slavs (if such arrival was ever massive)

----------


## how yes no 2

> 14. Greek name Illyrians for people north of them perhaps due to 'Lyre'- like music instrument e.g. gusle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusle that are used througout Illyrian area of influence (south Slavs + Albanians) and used while singing epic songs... or other way around - instrument 'Lyre' named after Illyrians... 
> interestingly, alike instrument in Kazakhs is named Kobyz, which sounds as derived from Serbs tribal name... 
> Bulgarian word is Gadulka perhaps related to Goths or Getae...Russian Gudok might also be related to Goths or Getae....
> another string instrument thus similar to Lyre is Harp, which might be related to H(a)rvat (Croat tribal name) and thus also to gusle/lyra...
> Albanian name "lahuta" is a borrowing from the Romanian lute - lauta.... lute may come from Slavic tribe Lutici or from Baltic Latvia (Lettonia in Romanian)... 
> south Slavic 'gusle' is not related to any tribal name which indicates it was not imported from some other nation... closest word alike 'gusle' is guska = goose...perhaps sound of instrument can be seen as somewhat resembling sound of goose...
> interestingly Romanian name is same as south Slavic - guzlă, which taken together with different words used in Russian and Bulgarian indicates 'gusle' being original name of the instrument...
> related Czech word 'housle' means violin, thus again string instrument...
> this indicates that I2a2 dominant Slavic people (remember that Slavic people are of Veneti origin) are more related to Illyrians than E-V13 dominant Albanians... in addition, Slavic words are much better match in meaning to those words preserved from Illyrian whose meaning is known, than Albanian words are... 
> ...


actually, I was probably somewhat wrong in text above
as I have shown in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...6&postcount=40

Illyrians were probably E-V13 and they lived in albania and part of Montenegro...north of them were Venetic I2a2 people from whom proto-Slavs origin...... however, south Slavic 'gusle' is in proper place as proto-Slavic people are Veneti and Veneti lived in Roman province of Illyria, above real Illyria (Albania + part of Macedonia) and Serb and Croat tribal names are probably same as previous people on same locations Autoriatae and Scordisci/Serdi... they did partly go to north when Romans took over area...
and returned when Roman empire declined....

this is also in correspondence with story told in Russian primary chronicle... 




> After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the *Slavic race is derived from the line of
> Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.*
> *Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube*, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
> the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. *Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula,* and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.


http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

spread from ex-Yugoslavia to north (Bohemia from where Serbs came back) is also visible in Czech 'housle' used for another string instrument - violin...
while east Slavs (including Bulgarians) have completely unrelated words for 'gusle'
and Romanian word 'guzlă' being identical to south Slavic (and different from Russian and Bulgarian) is proof of older origin of word...

----------


## iapetoc

:Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 


1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chersonesus_Taurica




*they are tauriski people* 

ΤΑΥΡΙΑ -> ΤΑΥΡΙΣΚΟΙ

*for ancient Greeks they were simmilar and consider Thracians*

the name tauriski is from Pelasgic-Etrurian Tauros = Bull and is not IE 

In Cretan vocabulary word Bull does not exist

the Greeks name them tauriski cause they worship red bulls,
and decorate them

from pelasgic tauros etrurian etc 

the pre pelasgic Greeks use the word Bolos 


Lyre instrument is name from pelasgic not IE
The *lyre* is a stringed musical instrument well known for its use in Greek classical antiquity and later. The word comes from the Greek "λύρα" (_lyra_)[1] and the earliest reference to the word is the Mycenaean Greek _ru-ra-ta-e_, meaning "lyrists", written in Linear B syllabic script.[2] The earliest picture of a lyre with seven strings appears in the famous sarcophagus of Hagia Triada (a Minoan settlement in Crete). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyre

*find how in Bible the Hebrew name their Lyras
is clear pelasgic words simmilar semitic* Keliy-a or Reliy-a-> Lyra

if you read there is no connection with Illyria but with Thrace north Egypt, Phillistines Pontic Greeks and Magna Grecani and cretans, as also with ancient Hebrew
5 types

no connection with Illyria cause they took myceanean culture of aylos Flutes


Hell-enes peoples of sun in pelasgic
Hel-lanes people of stone in pelasgic
Hellios is son
Ill means sun also
Ill- y -ra means either egyptian Ra god of Sun
either Ill-ura sun and sky 
Ill-reo Sun light stream, sun light flux
virb ρεω noune ροη means flux, stream, river, move of liquids and Fields (magnetic etc) 
_Illyrii Proprie Dicti_[118] were the Illyrians proper, so called by Pliny (23–79 AD) in his Natural History. They later formed the Docleatae. They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae

there is no connection with lyre
which is pelasgic as Formyx etc
in fact Lyre was founded by orpheus a Pierian one surely not Illyrian

 :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

The *laouto* (Greek: λαούτο) is a long-neck fretted instrument of the lute family, found in Greece, and similar in appearance to the oud. It is played in most respects like the oud (plucked with a long plectrum).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laouto


Perhaps you sould read 

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html

you find E-V13 came from Cyprus at 2000 BC by sea to balkans at copper fever times

it explains very well genetically the spread of E-V13 and all its mutations

you must read it, and find with what is more connected,

*Ancient Illyrians were J2 simmilar pelasgic cretans, etrurians, phillistines Ionic and aeolic Greeks, E-V13 entered Illyria after Illyrus invasion,
an existance of I people were there since I were before J2 and E-v13 in Balkans*

----------


## zanipolo

In the venetian language , in the Northern parts silver is called *ardhent*, while in the southern parts its *arzento*

*ardhent* is used because venetian is a cousin of the occitan language which is cousin to the catalan. Then again drinking glass in venetian is *goto* same as catalan and cow is *vaca* same as catalan .

This brings me to a point in that,........ was there any significant migrations running from northern Spain , through southern France into northern Italy

----------


## zanipolo

Since the Catalans originated in Provence France , and moved westwards along the coast to where they are a present, is it not feasible that they moved eastwards into northern Italy!
Franco-provencal language is related to catalan, occitan, ligurian, piemontese, venetian.

Has anyone mapped this migratory pattern ?

----------


## how yes no 2

> Then again drinking glass in venetian is *goto* same as catalan and cow is *vaca* same as catalan .
> 
> This brings me to a point in that,........ was there any significant migrations running from northern Spain , through southern France into northern Italy


Goths went other way around in recent history... I think also earlier migration waves usually went towards Spain and not from Spain.... if it was other way around we would see much of E-M81 in south France... we see it in Spain and in Italy... but the presence in Italy is probably brought by Etruscans from Asia minor... and during Roman empire from north African colonies...

----------


## zanipolo

> Goths went other way around in recent history... I think also earlier migration waves usually went towards Spain and not from Spain.... if it was other way around we would see much of E-M81 in south France... we see it in Spain and in Italy... but the presence in Italy is probably brought by Etruscans from Asia minor... and during Roman empire from north African colonies...


The major consensus now is that their was also a migration from catalan spain towards northern italy due to the fact that they where linguisticly similar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language

also , the major isobar which joins northern italy to southern france and spain is known
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

Even I stated above the words are identical for some Venetian (known as venet ) and catalan. Also venet has Pomo for apple , and the french have Pom ( In italain its Mela) .

----------


## how yes no 2

> The major consensus now is that their was also a migration from catalan spain towards northern italy due to the fact that they where linguisticly similar
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language


perhaps, there was...
those are near areas...especially by sea it's quite possible that people from one place make colony at other...
but I am curious why assuming direction from Spain to Italy and not opposite...
what is hidden agenda behind that direction...





> also , the major isobar which joins northern italy to southern france and spain is known
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line
> 
> Even I stated above the words are identical for some Venetian (known as venet ) and catalan. Also venet has Pomo for apple , and the french have Pom ( In italain its Mela) .


don't you think differnce between north and south of the line is perhaps due to Celtic remains bellow latin language imposed by Roman empire...

----------


## Carlitos

_Vayse meu corachn de mib.__ya Rab, si me tornard?__Tan mal meu doler li-l-habib!__Enfermo yed, cund sanard?_

----------


## zanipolo

> _Vayse meu corach�n de mib.__ya Rab, �si me tornar�d?__�Tan mal meu doler li-l-habib!__Enfermo yed, �cu�nd sanar�d?_



let me try to understand thi sentence through venet lingoa

if my courage ????????????? if I returned even with all the ills I have from the inferno ????????

thats it .....yours ? are an issue

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## Carlitos

^^

My heart's love is gone from me.
Dear Lord, will he perhaps return?
My yearning for the beloved is so great!
He (o: it, sc. my heart) is ill, when will he (it) recover?

----------


## Catchabus

I have no background in linguistics, but I’m fairly fluent in standard Italian, and I have studied French and Spanish, but my first “language” was Sicilian, and I’ve always found it odd how some words are closer to French or Spanish than they are to Italian.

For example, “to work” in Italian is _lavorare_ while it’s _travailler_ in French and _trabajar_ in Spanish. In Sicilian it’s _travagghiari_. This is just anecdotal but it fits with the historical record. During the time the vulgar languages developed, Sicily was controlled by France and more so Spain (many people named Catalano in NW Sicily).

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## bud

> This isn't getting anywhere.
> 
> English is a rather young language, and has many words from other languages.
> Another point is the English speaking people lack a lot of knowledge of other languages.
> 
> So that's the reason for a lot of gobbledegook.
> 
> Just take the primitive words. Those who existed first.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct, English has a lot of "modern" words which recently were added to the language many of which based on latin and greek words. But like you said the primitive English words are very similar to the other Germanic languages. 

Anybody know much about the Scots language?

----------


## sparkey

> Anybody know much about the Scots language?


It's a Germanic language spoken in Scotland, generally mutually intelligible with English, with which it shares a close history.

Reading through the Scots Wikipedia can be funny to English speakers. You can't help but read it with a heavy Scottish accent in your head. I imagine that it's similar for German speakers with the Allemanic Wikipedia, and for other similar closely-related languages.

----------


## Antigone

Doesn't it depend on what part of Scotland as to the language? 

I thought that Scottish Gaelic was introduced by Irish settlers around the 4thC and is/was spoken in Western and Northern Scotland and the Isle of Man? But I could be wrong.

There has been some grumbling in Scotland as (apparently) road signs etc are now being introduced in both Gaelic and English, and Gaelic was never spoken in the Lowlands.

----------


## sparkey

> Doesn't it depend on what part of Scotland as to the language? 
> 
> I thought that Scottish Gaelic was introduced by Irish settlers around the 4thC and is/was spoken in Western and Northern Scotland and the Isle of Man? But I could be wrong.
> 
> There has been some grumbling in Scotland as (apparently) road signs etc are now being introduced in both Gaelic and English, and Gaelic was never spoken in the Lowlands.


Language in Scotland has a complicated history that involves several migrations since the Classical Age, which is why Scotland is usually thought of in a nuanced manner as having evolved culturally from multiple sources. Immediately pre-4th century, those living in Scotland were mostly Picts, except some Britons in modern-day southern Scotland. Then the Gaels came over, then the Germanic migrations happened, then Gaelic expanded, then Gaelic retracted, and isolation in the English-speaking areas developed into Scots, which is itself retracting... and so forth.

Although, Scottish Gaelic, at its peak, did cover some of the Lowlands (blue is Gaelic).

----------


## Antigone

Thanks Sparkey, Scotland has a fascinating history and people.

----------


## zanipolo

> I think you are correct, English has a lot of "modern" words which recently were added to the language many of which based on latin and greek words. But like you said the primitive English words are very similar to the other Germanic languages. 
> 
> Anybody know much about the Scots language?


There is a BBC program called "the adventures of English" which explains that english came from an Old Germanic language spoken only by the Frisians, who sill live in northern netherlands.

Anyone know if the celtic people from southern England ( Cornwall ) migrated to brittany in France or was it the other way around. They both speak a similar celtic language

----------


## zanipolo

> ^^
> 
> My heart's love is gone from me.
> Dear Lord, will he perhaps return?
> My yearning for the beloved is so great!
> He (o: it, sc. my heart) is ill, when will he (it) recover?



what???
_Vayse meu corach�n de mib.ya Rab, �si me tornar�d?�Tan mal meu doler li-l-habib!Enfermo yed, �cu�nd sanar�d?

si me tornar - identical to Venetian , it means = If I returned

Tan Mal Meu doler - in Venetian = Tant mal mi doler = a lot of pain and agony

Others have sylabols which prevent reading properly

Anyway, its very similar


_

----------


## Taranis

> Anyone know if the celtic people from southern England ( Cornwall ) migrated to brittany in France or was it the other way around. They both speak a similar celtic language


Cornish, Breton and Welsh are all part of the Brythonic branch of the Celtic languages. Before the Romans came to Britain, Brythonic was probably spoken in most of Britain before the Romans came (except possibly the north of Scotland, where Pictish was spoken, which however was either itself a dialect of Brythonic or closely related with Brythonic). By the migrations period, Brythonic fragmented into Breton, Cornish and Welsh. Before the Bretons migrated to Brittany, Gaulish was spoken there.

----------


## Regulus

> Cornish, Breton and Welsh are all part of the Brythonic branch of the Celtic languages. Before the Romans came to Britain, Brythonic was probably spoken in most of Britain before the Romans came (except possibly the north of Scotland, where Pictish was spoken, which however was either itself a dialect of Brythonic or closely related with Brythonic). By the migrations period, Brythonic fragmented into Breton, Cornish and Welsh. Before the Bretons migrated to Brittany, Gaulish was spoken there.


 
Very well described.

Have you come across any newer (past say, ten years) developments in finding what Pictish actually was?
I have read all sorts of opinions that had it to be Brythonic, Brythonic and pre-IE mixed, etc. I have not seen anything conclusive recently. Has there been anything new on this about which you may be aware?

----------


## bud

I think they will be forever guessing the only thing you can be sure of is they never called themselves Picts or spoke Picts, not in their minds anyway. Picts was the Roman name given to the painted people of Northern Britannia. A technicality but at least its conclusive. :)

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## Regulus

> I think they will be forever guessing the only thing you can be sure of is they never called themselves Picts or spoke Picts, not in their minds anyway. Picts was the Roman name given to the painted people of Northern Britannia. A technicality but at least its conclusive. :)


 
That is what I was afraid of.

The most intruiging possibility is that they would have been identifiable as a remnant of a pre-IE group or maybe something simliar to Celtiberians of Spain.

----------


## Taranis

> Very well described.
> 
> Have you come across any newer (past say, ten years) developments in finding what Pictish actually was?
> I have read all sorts of opinions that had it to be Brythonic, Brythonic and pre-IE mixed, etc. I have not seen anything conclusive recently. Has there been anything new on this about which you may be aware?


First off, one problem is that the term "Picts" is an exonym, and they almost certainly didn't constitute a coherent group. The "Picts" also gloss a considerable amount of time, from the 1st century BC to the early medieval ages. In any case, I think, the notion that Pictish was pre-IE exclusively comes from certain unreadable Ogham inscriptions found in Scotland, such as the Lunnasting Stone. If we go by onomastic evidence (Ptolemy), then Pictish must clearly have been a Celtic language - what kind of Celtic language is a question. In my opinion, there's only two viable scenarios: either, the Picts spoke a mere dialect of Brythonic, or they spoke a distinct P-Celtic language.

----------


## Regulus

> First off, one problem is that the term "Picts" is an exonym, and they almost certainly didn't constitute a coherent group. The "Picts" also gloss a considerable amount of time, from the 1st century BC to the early medieval ages. In any case, I think, the notion that Pictish was pre-IE exclusively comes from certain unreadable Ogham inscriptions found in Scotland, such as the Lunnasting Stone. If we go by onomastic evidence (Ptolemy), then Pictish must clearly have been a Celtic language - what kind of Celtic language is a question. In my opinion, there's only two viable scenarios: either, the Picts spoke a mere dialect of Brythonic, or they spoke a distinct P-Celtic language.


 
I was not aware of ogham inscriptions attributed to Picts.
In that case I would lean towards some kind of celtic-type language, although it would not be impossible for that form of writing to have been picked up by another group.

It is true that the term Pict was fairly loosely applied. They fairly readily took on Gaelic after the later invasions of the Scots from Ireland, so it would seem likely that their base language would have been a celtic type.

----------


## sparkey

> Anyone know if the celtic people from southern England ( Cornwall ) migrated to brittany in France or was it the other way around. They both speak a similar celtic language


On cue, Taranis with an excellent response to this. But I wanted to clarify that the migrations into Brittany were not just from Cornish people, although there is a region of Brittany that recognizes its Cornish past. More generally, there was a first wave of Britons in Brittany that resulted from them being Roman troops stationed there. The second, probably larger, wave came from Britons, a lot of them from the Kingdom of Dumnonia (which probably included Cornwall but was not restricted to it), fleeing there as a result of the conquest of their countries by Wessex and the rest of the heptarchy.

See also this thread about the Cornish.

----------


## Taranis

> I was not aware of ogham inscriptions attributed to Picts.
> In that case I would lean towards some kind of celtic-type language, although it would not be impossible for that form of writing to have been picked up by another group.


Well, most Ogham inscriptions, of course, especially the ones from Ireland*, very obviously contain an early form Irish, but some in Scotland were attributed to the Picts based on their location. I find the idea that because inscriptions are unreadable, they must represent a non-IE language somewhat far-fetched. Given how the Ogham system works, it's actually surprisingly easy to write gibberish in it.

*Actually, this primitive Irish VERY interesting because it shows that Irish as late as the 5th century AD exhibited a complex declension system very similar to Gaulish.




> It is true that the term Pict was fairly loosely applied. They fairly readily took on Gaelic after the later invasions of the Scots from Ireland, so it would seem likely that their base language would have been a celtic type.


As I said, their language was most certainly a P-Celtic language, but it's impossible to say anything else beyond that. The possibilities are basically A) just a dialect of Brythonic B) a distinct language closely related with Brythonic or C) a language actually closer to Gaulish than to Brythonic.

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## Regulus

[QUOTE=Taranis;370092] . I find the idea that because inscriptions are unreadable, they must represent a non-IE language somewhat far-fetched. 

* 

Well said. 
That brings a recollection to me about the positions of many who, years ago, were convinced that the only certain thing about Linear B was that it was not Greek.

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## Regulus

[QUOTE=Regulus;370094]


> . I find the idea that because inscriptions are unreadable, they must represent a non-IE language somewhat far-fetched. 
> 
> * 
> 
> Well said. 
> That brings a recollection to me about the positions of many who, years ago, were convinced that the only certain thing about Linear B was that it was not Greek.


 
For those who are not familiar with my sense of humor, I was agreeing with Taranis as Linear B was indeed later found to be a syllabic form of Mycenean Greek.

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## Reinaert

> It's a Germanic language spoken in Scotland, generally mutually intelligible with English, with which it shares a close history.
> 
> Reading through the Scots Wikipedia can be funny to English speakers. You can't help but read it with a heavy Scottish accent in your head. I imagine that it's similar for German speakers with the Allemanic Wikipedia, and for other similar closely-related languages.



Well, I read some of the Scottish wikipedia, and I am astonished to see how many words can be linked directly with Dutch!
More specific, Southern Dutch.

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## edao

> Well, I read some of the Scottish wikipedia, and I am astonished to see how many words can be linked directly with Dutch!
> More specific, Southern Dutch.


I hate to ruin anyones romantic notions about Scotland, but....

Scots is not a real language! You can't go into any news agent in Scotland and find a paper written in Scots, there are no schools teaching it in place of English. If you write a business letter with those kind of spellings and grammar you'd be laughed at.

Scots has been promoted by some people as a language for politcal reasons as with many dialects, I appreciate its a heavy accent and as spoken has some gramatical variations that straight in english wouldn't work, but it is still just a informal variation of English.

I have lived in Scotland most my life and I am struggling to read half of the wiki pedia nonsense. Accents differ across the country as anywhere, people from Glasgow (the major population centre) consider anyone oustide of Glasgow to be a 'choochter' definition  :Grin: .

If you are hungry for more 'glasgow patter' watch some scottish comedy on youtube, it would be interesting to see if the humour translates to an international audience as many English people would struggle with it.

The Limmy Show

Clip One

Clip Two

Clip Three

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## Regulus

Edao,
I did not know that the advancment of Scots as an actual language had no real foundation.
Would it more correct, then to say that it is a very specific accent that came from the area of Northumbria?

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## Taranis

> Originally Posted by Taranis
> 
> 
>  . I find the idea that because inscriptions are unreadable, they must represent a non-IE language somewhat far-fetched.
> 
> 
> Well said. 
> That brings a recollection to me about the positions of many who, years ago, were convinced that the only certain thing about Linear B was that it was not Greek.





> For those who are not familiar with my sense of humor, I was agreeing with Taranis as Linear B was indeed later found to be a syllabic form of Mycenean Greek.


The key issue with Linear B is that this writing system was not originally made for the Greek language, but for what has been dubbed "Eteocretan", that is, the language used in Linear A (which thus far has been still undeciphered), and as such, Linear B was somewhat unsuitable for properly representing Greek. Other examples of this phenomenon include the Celtiberian language written in a variant of the Northeastern Iberian script, or for instance English words rendered in Japanese Katakana (for example, "Christmas" is rendered as "Kurisumasu"  :Satisfied:  ).

Conversely, this is to me the strongest argument why the Tartessian language cannot have been Celtic or otherwise Indo-European: it is the _oldest_ of the Paleohispanic writing systems (hence the original setup, and must by that logic most closest match to the language it was developed for), and it's inventory is totally non-consistent with a Celtic language.

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## Regulus

Correct, in fact Christmas is rendered alomost identically in Korean.

My only point was to provide an example of your position (with the Ogham) that some will, upon being unable to decipher a script, will quickly proclaim it to be that of an entirely different language.

Yes, of course there are vast differences between Ogham and the Syllabic and pictogram Linear B, which was adopted for use by Mycenaean Greeks. I was using this example to support your position that the mere fact that a script cannot be figured out should not mean that it should be pronounced to be a different language.

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## Taranis

I see your point. The key problem with Ogham is that technically it is an alphabet, however it is peculiar because it's based on strokes that are placed along a line. The basic Ogham setup is the following:

right pointing strokes:
1 = B
2 = L
3 = F (more probably "W" in primitive Irish, since later Irish makes the mutation from W -> F)
4 = S
5 = N

left pointing strokes:
1 = H
2 = D
3 = T
4 = C (or "k")
5 = Q (or "kw")

left-and-right pointing strokes:
1 = A
2 = O
3 = U
4 = E
5 = I

diagonal strokes:
1 = M
2 = G
3 = NG (or "gw")
4 = Z (or "ts")
5 = R

From the purely phonemic perspective, this setup is rather decent for representing a Q-Celtic language like archaic Irish (you may notice that the letter "P" is conspicously absent, and was indeed added only later in the Ogham system!). However, if you place a stroke wrongly, or add an additional stroke, it's very easy to make mistakes in this writing system, thereby easily producing gibberish.

The main problem with Linear B (which made it's deciphering problematic) is that it became extinct without leaving a descendant, and for the period of several centuries, Greek society was again completely illiterate, until centuries later the Greeks developed their alphabet off the Phoenician one. The other problem is that it's based off Linear A, which was used for writing the (as of presently) undeciphered 'Eteocretan' language.

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## sparkey

> Scots is not a real language!


I remember reading that a clear majority of Scottish people think that Scots is a real language... although popularity polls shouldn't determine linguistic classification. Either way, if it is a dialect or a set of dialects, it is a strong one, and I hope that it gets preserved somehow, or we wouldn't have gems like these:




> The *hornie-gollach*, *clipshear*, *gavelock* or *forkietail* is a group o insects (cawed _Dermaptera_). Thay are chairacterised by weengs thay can fauld unner short, laither-like foreweengs. Thare are aboot 1800 speshie o hornie-gollachs. Thay daena seem tae spreaid ony disease, or hairm humans in ony wey. Maist o thaim are 10-14mm lang, some speshie can reak 80mm. Maist hornie-gollachs are omnivores thay eat some insect larvae an aw.

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## zanipolo

> I remember reading that a clear majority of Scottish people think that Scots is a real language... although popularity polls shouldn't determine linguistic classification. Either way, if it is a dialect or a set of dialects, it is a strong one, and I hope that it gets preserved somehow, or we wouldn't have gems like these:


well it says 500,000 speak the scottish language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

hmmm....i always though it was all one language in scotland, but the highland scots have another language

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## edao

> well it says 500,000 speak the scottish language
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language
> 
> hmmm....i always though it was all one language in scotland, but the highland scots have another language


I suppose it's about at what point you draw the line between a language and a dialect. For me Scot's doesn't qualify as a language because the people speaking it are being taught English at school and there is no school child thinking English is a foreign language.

The spellings of written 'Scots' to me are nonsense because no one wrties with those spellings they write in normal English but might in spoken language pronounce the words differently.

For example they would write: What are you doing < would be taught in schools and is the only acceptable way to communicate in Scotland in written language the 'scots' spellings you have seen on wiki are used by no one I know.

The way that sentence might be pronounced by some people and this will vary all over the parts of country might be "wit ar yae daen" 

My point is "scots" is a accent it has some grammatical variation from English, but for the people using it is all supported from straight English and so has not evolved to become a new language, and I doubt with modern education standards ever will.

You can't find a paper written in 'Scots' and you don't get letters from friends written like that and would never get any business communication like that. Where you might see those kind of spelling might be in an informal text message on on messenger to communicate a colloquial tone, but for 90% of all Scottish people it would be hard work to read the accented spelling rather than straight English.

I would also make clear that 'Scots' is completely different thing from Scottish Gaelic, but I'm sure you all know that.
There are some books written in 'Scots' with the crazy spellings but you'd be lucky if 5% of Scottish people had ever read or bought one.

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## Reinaert

> I hate to ruin anyones romantic notions about Scotland, but....
> 
> Scots is not a real language! You can't go into any news agent in Scotland and find a paper written in Scots, there are no schools teaching it in place of English. If you write a business letter with those kind of spellings and grammar you'd be laughed at.
> 
> Scots has been promoted by some people as a language for politcal reasons as with many dialects, I appreciate its a heavy accent and as spoken has some gramatical variations that straight in english wouldn't work, but it is still just a informal variation of English.
> 
> I have lived in Scotland most my life and I am struggling to read half of the wiki pedia nonsense. Accents differ across the country as anywhere, people from Glasgow (the major population centre) consider anyone oustide of Glasgow to be a 'choochter' definition .
> 
> If you are hungry for more 'glasgow patter' watch some scottish comedy on youtube, it would be interesting to see if the humour translates to an international audience as many English people would struggle with it.
> ...


Well... You don't seem to like the idea that Scottish is related to Dutch.
But there are a lot of similarities between the dialects, whether you like it or not.
And it's understandable, because the people in the Southern Netherlands, Belgium, France, Ireland and Scotland are related to each other.

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## Mzungu mchagga

I don't believe in 'Scots' as a distinct language, but as a dialect, too. Everything edao just mentioned applies also in detail to 'Alemannic', which also is a dialect. It is informal, used in in written form perhaps in some messengers or emails, but nothing more.

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## Taranis

I'd like to humbly suggest moving this thread into the linguistics section, since it has nothing to do with genetics but everything to do with linguistics.  :Good Job:

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## archaiocapilos

Iapetoc you have absolutely zero knowledge of Greek, everything you say is wrong. ''Pyrgos'' means tower in Greek not lighthouse while ''keli'' means ''a small room of a monastery or a prison''. We never use keli for tower, only pyrgos or castro and lighthouse is always ''faros''. Where did you get your linguistic degree from??

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## iapetoc

> Iapetoc you have absolutely zero knowledge of Greek, everything you say is wrong. ''Pyrgos'' means tower in Greek not lighthouse while ''keli'' means ''a small room of a monastery or a prison''. We never use keli for tower, only pyrgos or castro and lighthouse is always ''faros''. Where did you get your linguistic degree from??


You are a total ignorant of ancient Greek and especially Homerick,
keep modern Greek speaking and don't spread modern, I don't care about modern which is bullshit,

Pyrgos is ancient word, we find it also in Etruscan language, as Pyrgi with same meaning,
Pyrgos as tower is later, like γαμε-ω means other to ancient other to modern,
Paros is the ancient name for Pharos, Pharos became after Makedonian and especially at koine,

In pontic Greek the tower is τσαλλι Calli, 
the meaning of Kelli as an indipendent in monasteries is later by byzantines,
The case of Gulla and Surdia in Kozani, as many other places with Kelli near a sord is typical in Greece,

Search in Ionic Greece minor asia Smyrna area the Kelli areas,
the Calabria or Sarendo name in Italy,
The Gulla and Surdia in Kozani 

remember that -issa -essa means tower in Homeric, also in Hettit 
My linguistic is From Greek university, 
But my work is in pre-Homeric words and languages,
and believe me modern Greek are very different with Homeric,
as an exapmle i give you the word Ελλερον and Ελλυας -Ελλυες (Homer Odyssey) what means to you?
is it in modern Greek?
well not but christians and some others manage to destroy it, 

the Pyrgos means Pyr + cheo Πυρ+χεω χεω-χοανη-χυνω,
the word kelli we find it also in ancient Athens, 
Δε-κελλεια (Δε-De-DI) as you see Kelli is a Pelasgian word, a non PIE word of Greek
for you it is an unknown word, or Tattoi but is Pelasgic
it survived in pontic Greeks as τσαλλι 
and in Smyrna people as Kulla -Kulle 
minor Asia Ionia is full of Kelli, 
Athens were Pelasgians- Thyrrenian Branch as Thoukidides say and Not IE
that is why in Attic and Ionic dialects we find many Pelasgic-Thyrrenian words, 
*remember the word ΚΕΛΛΥΦΟΣ*,
what means Kellyfos? 
it is same root with Kelli
maybe for you is the turkish word καβουκι,



now since you know ancient Greek tell me what Larissa means and what Larymna
there you find the ancient Greeks that you don't know,

for an introduction in Homeric and Pelasgic language read Thomopoulos pelasgika, although i have my precautions in enough words,

to understand more
3 Ναουσα Nausa

1 in cyclades
2 in Makedonia
3 in Serbia 

tell me the differences and what means each one

since you are Greek tell me what means Φρατερ, Μητρινα, 
and especially Ναιουσαι πεποτησθε βροτων, και σκιρτηται Κουρηται ρομβηται
ειδικα το ρομβηται,


Remember Kallikrateia, Callambria, Kallipolis, Gulla - Magoula, all means about the same 
the Kelli - Celli, and not the kalos καλος, which gives another meaning
Kalos with 1 L
Kelli with 2 L

thank you, 

PS 
what means γρουσσα to you?
and virb Γρικαω (εγρικησα Αορ)

what means Παρνασσος , why with 2 ss and in which language?
how Parnassos will be in Latin or in English

*and remember castro is not a Greek word*,
so stay in your ignorance, 
or in school literature, cause you are total fail when you say kastro is Greek word
Pyrgos was the signal area of all ok,
remember in Makedonia they learn news of Alexander by using Pyrgos signals,
and not kastro signals, 
if you study ancient poleodomy, then you understand what pyrgos was,
it was similar to Paros-Pharos but with purpose to signal news of battle or situation, like fine, danger etc

so stay in your modern Greek,
and go 'πανδρεψου cause if you knew Greek you will never say 'πανδρευομαι,

Να θυμασαι οτι αυτα που μαθαινεις σημερα δεν ειναι Ελληνικα, αλλα οτι απομεινε απο την γλωσσα,
οπως την καταντησαν οι χριστιανοι και οι βυζαντινοι,
το αβγο δεν ειναι Ελληνικο, ουτε το κουταλι (τουρκικη λεξη),
το ωο ειναι και το κοχλιαριο,
τα νεα εξηγουνται με τα αρχαια, τα αρχαια δεν εξηγουνται με τα νεα,
γιατι λες νερο? ξερεις απο που βγηκε ασχετε?
τι θα πει Ποντος για σενα (λεξη οχι περιοχη) και τι ποντιος?
μηπως το cm το εκατοστο ειναι ο Τιτανας ποντος?

σαν τον ασχετο τον Αλβανο που λεει οτι η λεξη πυργος ειναι πο το Γρερμανικο -burg φυλακη,
ενω η λεξη φυλακη ειναι καθαρα Ελληνικη,
θυμησου την πολη Φυλακαι των αρχαιων μακεδονων,

εγω ειμαι απο την περιοχη της αρχαιας Μπαλλας στην Μακεδονια,
Ξερεις τι σημαινει Μπαλλα ασχετε στα Ελληνικα? μηπως ποδοσφαιρο?


Next time care when you speak of me and Greek Language,
Cause you are as ignorant, as the dumpest person who think that learn in school everything
and can expalin ancient and Homeric with modern,

when you search the linguistic of past, you must be well informed,
like 
modern greek is χαλκος chalkos
but the Greek word is Κυπρος Kupros in Homeric, (cyprus)
and Kυπρος is not an island, short mind pupil, but Κιττιον is the island name,

where did you learn your Greeks?

το πιο απλο, εαν εχεις διαβασει τα ποστ μου,
τι θα πει Ερεβος, 
σε ποια αλλη γλωσσα το συνανταμε?
το εξηγω σε καποια ποστ μου,
αντε με τις υγιες σου Νεο Ελληνα

αφιερωμενο το τραγουδι του τζιμμη πανουση,

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## Taranis

I wanted to add something else here, I mentioned before that in Estonian and Finnish, the word for "iron" is "rauta". The most probable etymology is from the Proto-Indo-European word *Hreudh- ("red" - compare Latin "Rutilus", Greek "Erythros", Welsh "Rhudd" - all which mean "red").

In fact, the cognate for the word in the Baltic and Slavic languages actually means "ore":

Latvian, Lithuanian - Rūda
Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian - Ruda
Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian - Rudy

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## archaiocapilos

Dear friend iapetoc (Iapetos derives from 'iapto' did you know that?)
'Pyrgos'= tower, fortification in ancient Greek,period. There existed also a verb 'pyrgo-o' wich meant I build a tower, a fort or a wall.
'Pharos'= lighthouse is derived from 'phaos'=light
'Kelyphos'= shell is propably derived from 'kalypto'=cover and is written with one L.
'Kalli-polis'= good-city. In ancient Greek allthough 'kalos'= good,nice was written with one L it's form 'kallos'=beauty was written with two L. It has no relation to 'kelli'.
For example
'Kalli-ergo'= I cultivate litterrally means 'I do a good work' ('kallos' + 'ergon'=work)
'Kall-op-izo'= I make the face beautyfull ('kallos' + the root 'op'=face from opsis)
'Kalli-phonos'= He who has a beautyfull voice, and so on.
'Phrater' meant brother in ancient Greek but today we use the word 'a-delph-os' wich litterally means 'from the same womb'('delphys'=womb) We occasionally use the word 'fatria'=clan,brotherhood
'Rombetai' is propably derived from 'rembazo'= I wonder.
You see I know modern Greek well wich helps me understand ancient Greek better than you.

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## archaiocapilos

'Pontos'=open sea and 'pontios'=he who is related with the sea, while 'pontikos'=he who origins from the Black Sea.
'augo'=egg derives from ancient 'οων'.
'hyp-andr-evomai'(hypo-andros)= I get married and should only be used for women because it litterally means 'under the man'
I could go for hours.

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## archaiocapilos

'Erebos'=primordial darkness is related with the Indo-European root 'orbho'=orphan (because 'Erebos' was unborn). An other ancient Greek word derived from 'erebos' is 'orphne' wich means darkness.

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## LeBrok

> I wanted to add something else here, I mentioned before that in Estonian and Finnish, the word for "iron" is "rauta". The most probable etymology is from the Proto-Indo-European word *Hreudh- ("red" - compare Latin "Rutilus", Greek "Erythros", Welsh "Rhudd" - all which mean "red").
> 
> In fact, the cognate for the word in the Baltic and Slavic languages actually means "ore":
> 
> Latvian, Lithuanian - Rūda
> Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian - Ruda
> Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian - Rudy


Brilliant, that's the IE conection.

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## Taranis

> Brilliant, that's the IE conection.


Here's the gist: it appears that there's a significant number of words (in the Finnic branch, at least, I cannot talk about the other branches of IE) which appear to be loans from Proto-Indo-European. The critical point is that this is from PIE or close to it, rather than Balto-Slavic or Germanic. This does however match, archeologically speaking the contact between people of the Comb Ceramic Culture and the Corded Ware Culture, or, in terms of Y-Haplogroups, contact between predominantly N people and R1a people.

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## Dagne

> Here's the gist: it appears that there's a significant number of words (in the Finnic branch, at least, I cannot talk about the other branches of IE) which appear to be loans from Proto-Indo-European. The critical point is that this is from PIE or close to it, rather than Balto-Slavic or Germanic. This does however match, archeologically speaking the contact between people of the Comb Ceramic Culture and the Corded Ware Culture, or, in terms of Y-Haplogroups, contact between predominantly N people and R1a people.


Why would you think the loans in Finnic languages are directly from PIE rather than from ie proto Balto-Slavic, proto Baltic, proto Germanic who where close by?

http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html
http://www.angelfire.com/va/virdainas/proto.html

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## Taranis

> Why would you think the loans in Finnic languages are directly from PIE rather than from ie proto Balto-Slavic, proto Baltic, proto Germanic who where close by?
> 
> http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html
> http://www.angelfire.com/va/virdainas/proto.html


I didn't say that there weren't such loans from (Proto-)Slavic/Baltic/Germanic, because they clearly exist, but this primarily because of the type of loans, and also adherence/non-adherence to sound laws. With the former, what is critical there is the fact that the Comb Ceramic people were essentially hunter-gatherers which however had the knowledge of pottery, so it's far more likely that they picked up agricultural terms there than at a later point (consider that the Corded Ware people were Copper Age mixed-farmers-pastoralists).

Also, I said "PIE or (something) close to it".

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## archaiocapilos

In fact Iapetoc you are the stupid one if you think that language remains the same after 3000 years...of course Greek language changed since Homer it would have been a miracle if it didn't. But even the Homeric language was not a pure language as you seem to think, it was a poetic language which was never used by ordinary people. I read your previous post again and I noticed some other words you point out that made me laugh with your knowledge of how language works. For example you ask me if I know what 'gameo' meant in Old Greek and what it means in Modern Greek (which you label corrupted). Let's start:
'Gameo' meant 'I take a wife' in ancient Greek from 'gamos'=marriage but in modern Greek it means 'I have sex' which makes perfect sence since sex is what you do with your wife...but 'gamos'=marriage is still in use like other words that derive from it ('gamelios' for example).
Than you ask me why we use 'chalkos' instead of ancient Greek 'kypros' (none of these words is actually of Hellenic origin) but you are so ill-informed that you don't know that both words were in use in ancient Greek (have you heard of 'Chalkis/Chalkida/Chalkidice'?) A multitude of words derived from 'chalkos' existed in ancient Greek like 'chalkevo' 'chalkeios' chalkeus' 'chalkion' etc.
The fact that you read some Thomopoulos book doesn't make you an expert in Greek, in fact from what you say Thomopoulos seems like a moron to me.
And by the way that Albanian who talled you that 'pyrgos' is related with 'burg' was absolutely right.

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