# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Literacy may have been widespread in Israel by the 7th century BC

## Angela

The article is from Archaeology Magazine:
http://www.archaeology.org/news/4373...traca-literacy

"TEL AVIV, ISRAEL—Israel Finkelstein, Arie Shaus, and Shira Faigenbaum-Golovin of Tel Aviv University used computer programs to scan and analyze the handwriting on 16 ostracons dating to the seventh century B.C. All of the inscriptions were unearthed at the site of Arad, a frontier fort, and had been made within a span of a few months. T*he analysis suggests that at least six different people, ranging in rank from the commander of the fort down to the deputy quartermaster, had written these texts. All of the writers used proper spelling and syntax. Similar ostracons have been found at other border forts, suggesting that writing was widespread, at least within the Judahite army. Finkelstein thinks the ancient kingdom of Judah may have had an educational system, since literacy was not limited to the elite.* “This is really quite amazing, that in a remote place like this, there was more than one person, several people, who could write,” he told _Live Science_. Finkelstein also claims that if literacy were widespread at the time, *it would support the idea that portions of the Bible could have been compiled before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians.* "

Everything I was taught did indeed posit that the oldest parts of the Bible, Deuteronomy etc. were written in Babylon. The idea that parts of it could have been written before the exile in Jerusalem itself was the decidedly minority view. I'm not sure these results are proof that happened, but it is indeed another part of the puzzle. 

See:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713885

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## LeBrok

Interesting, Angela. It might point to the fact that Jews were smart way back too, learning fast, and not because of selection due to pogroms and persecutions. A stub against hypothesis which I supported. Although it might have caused to be even smarter, who knows.

I might use it in my thread about smart ancient people. If you don't mind I would like to copy your post there, please. I'm kind of lacking time to write anything substantial these days. :)

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## Angela

> Interesting, Angela. It might point to the fact that Jews were smart way back too, learning fast, and not because of selection due to pogroms and persecutions. A stub against hypothesis which I supported. Although it might have caused to be even smarter, who knows.
> 
> I might use it in my thread about smart ancient people. If you don't mind I would like to copy your post there, please. I'm kind of lacking time to write anything substantial these days. :)


Of course, Le Brok, no need even to ask. 

I don't think we know yet whether literacy was only widespread among the Jews. 

The Sumerians were using cuneiform script by the end of the 4th millennium BC. By 2600 BC they were using the cuneiform symbols to represent syllables.I believe that's generally accepted as the earliest actual "writing", although experts wrangle about what actually constitutes "writing". The Chinese developed it, probably independently, later, and the Olmecs in the New World later yet. The "alphabet system" was "invented" or "developed" by Semites, however, the Phoenicians, who were probably "Canaanites", and therefore close cousins of the Jews. It's a much easier system to learn, which would no doubt have led to its more widespread dispersal in a community.

We also know that scribes and government officials wrote reports in many of the ancient Near Eastern empires. What we don't know is whether literacy was common even among low level functionaries. That seems to be the case in Israel, given this research. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

The significance of this find is, I think, in what it says about the possibility that certain parts of the "Old Testament" were written before the period of the Babylonian captivity. Biblical scholars have long known that whole chunks of it, the creation stories, or the story of Noah, for example, were lifted from written tales of the Babylonians and other Mesopotamians, like the Epic of Gilgamesh. It's just that most scholars felt that the evidence, including the fact that the Jews might not yet have been broadly literate, indicated that the religious writings of the Jews were set down after they reached Babylon. This research suggests that they were indeed broadly literate earlier than thought.

I happen to agree with you that the unique history of the Jews goes some way toward understanding their success. However, I have always thought that part of that unique history is the fact that membership as an adult male in their community requires, in fact demands, literacy. You can't become a Jew unless you can read from scripture on your thirteenth birthday. It seems to me that this would advantage those with good verbal skills and winnow out those who don't have them. Social Darwinism, in a way. Of course, one could also look at this and ask, would a group of people without good verbal skills place such a high priority on literacy as to make it a prerequisite for membership in the community? Christianity certainly didn't do that. Although literacy was extremely high in the classical world, Europe after the fall of Rome was largely illiterate until the Renaissance. So, is it the chicken or the egg?

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## Angela

Some of the actual messages have been published in an article by the New York Times on the study.

New evidence on when the Bible was written: Ancient shopping lists
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/12/wo...ists.html?_r=0

"To Eliashib: And now, give the Kittiyim 3 baths of wine, and write the name of the day,” read one of the texts, composed in ancient Hebrew using the paleo-Hebrew alphabet, and apparently referring to a Greek mercenary unit in the area.

Another said: “And a full homer of wine, bring tomorrow; don’t be late. And if there is vinegar, give it to them.”"

"“To Eliashib, and now: Issue from the wine 3 baths,” another ostracon ordered, adding, “And Hananyahu has commanded you to Beersheba with 2 donkeys’ load and you shall wrap up the dough with them.”

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## A. Papadimitriou

Western Europe was illiterate until the Renaissance, even the elites were illiterate. But, that's not true about Eastern Roman Empire and medieval Bulgaria, for example. Of course things changed later.
Your points are valid but I needed to clarify it.

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## Angela

> Western Europe was illiterate until the Renaissance, even the elites were illiterate. But, that's not true about Eastern Roman Empire and medieval Bulgaria, for example. Of course things changed later.
> Your points are valid but I needed to clarify it.


No problem. You're correct. I wasn't specific enough.

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## LeBrok

> Some of the actual messages have been published in an article by the New York Times on the study.
> 
> New evidence on when the Bible was written: Ancient shopping lists
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/12/wo...ists.html?_r=0
> 
> "To Eliashib: And now, give the Kittiyim 3 baths of wine, and write the name of the day,” read one of the texts, composed in ancient Hebrew using the paleo-Hebrew alphabet, and apparently referring to a Greek mercenary unit in the area.
> 
> Another said: “And a full homer of wine, bring tomorrow; don’t be late. And if there is vinegar, give it to them.”"
> 
> "“To Eliashib, and now: Issue from the wine 3 baths,” another ostracon ordered, adding, “And Hananyahu has commanded you to Beersheba with 2 donkeys’ load and you shall wrap up the dough with them.”


Nice bits of history. 
Are they talking about Greek mercenaries in 7th century BC? Oh, these Greeks! Couldn't write but knew how to mess around. ;) 
Isn't about the time Greeks Dark Ages end and they adopted Pheonician (Canaanite) alphabet?

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## Angela

> Nice bits of history. 
> Are they talking about Greek mercenaries in 7th century BC? Oh, these Greeks! Couldn't write but knew how to mess around. ;) 
> Isn't about the time Greeks Dark Ages end and they adopted Pheonician (Canaanite) alphabet?


The Greeks were literate from the 9th century. The 7th century BC in Greece falls into what's called the "Archaic Period". . It was still a time of great social unrest and conflict between the classes and the various city states. It's just the sort of period where you'd have lots of trained soldiers, some of whom were on the losing side and would sell their services as mercenaries. 

"In the 8th century BC, Greece began to emerge from the Dark Ages which followed the fall of the Mycenaean civilization. Literacy had been lost and Mycenaean script forgotten, but the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alphabet, modifying it to create the Greek alphabet. From about the 9th century BC written records begin to appear.[22] Greece was divided into many small self-governing communities, a pattern largely dictated by Greek geography: every island, valley and plain is cut off from its neighbors by the sea or mountain ranges.[23] , The Lelantine War (c. 710 – c. 650 BC) is the earliest documented war of the ancient Greek period. It was fought between the important _poleis_ (city-states) of Chalcis and Eretria over the fertile Lelantine plain of Euboea. Both cities seem to have suffered a decline as result of the long war, though Chalcis was the nominal victor.A mercantile class arose in the first half of the 7th century, shown by the introduction of coinage in about 680 BC.[24] This seems to have introduced tension to many city-states. The aristocraticregimes which generally governed the _poleis_ were threatened by the new-found wealth of merchants, who in turn desired political power. From 650 BC onwards, the aristocracies had to fight not to be overthrown and replaced by populist tyrants. This word derives from the non-pejorative Greek τύραννος _tyrannos_, meaning 'illegitimate ruler', and was applicable to both good and bad leaders alike.[25][26]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece

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## Goga

Good for them. But by that time Aryans already wrote their Zoroastrian religious texts. I guess that Yasna (*Gathas*) are the oldest one.



"_The Vendidad (Vidēvdād) is the latest book of the Avesta. The Vendidad was written down between about 200 AD and 400AD, either in the later years of the Parthian Empire or during the Sassanian Empire. Even though its writing is late compared to the rest of the Avesta, the material it contains is much more ancient; some of it may date back to pre-Zarathushtrian times, and much of it comes from the age of the Magi, during the Achaemenid Persian Empire, 600-300 BC._"

http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd_eng.pdf



About Jewish connection:

"_The laws of the Jewish Torah show, in many passages, close resemblance to the laws of the Vendidad, especially in regard to ritual purity. The Jewish texts were re-edited during and after the Exile, when the Jews came into contact with Persia and Zoroastrian ways. It is very possible that Jewish laws either influenced, or were influenced by, the Magian laws of the Vendidad. By the time the Vendidad came to be written down, almost a millennium later, there was still a major Jewish presence in the Persian Empire. The era of the Vendidad's writing is also the era of the compilation of the Babylonian Talmud, a great compendium of Jewish wisdom which is still studied today. The rabbis of the Jewish diaspora in Persia were engaging in similar elaborations and casuistry in their own religious and legal traditions, using as their core text a document which may have already had some Zoroastrian influence from long ago._"

read:http://www.pyracantha.com/Z/vendnet.html



Example of the ancient ARYAN Gathas:



http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...ndex.htm#texts


"_The first phase of Zoroastrian history is defined by the history of_ _Aryans__ in the_ _sixteen lands__ or nations listed in the Zoroastrian scripture, the_ _Avesta's__, book of Vendidad. Media is the first Irano-Aryan nation to enter recorded history after the close of the Zoroastrian scripture's - the Avesta's - canon.__"


_Also, a lot was written about the Airyana Vaeja (Aryan homeland) which was located on the Iranian Plateau in the Vendidad.
Kurdistan, the homeland of the Medes, 1 of the 16 ARYAN lands, was called in the Vendidad: *Ranghaya

*http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...haya/index.htm

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## Goga

The laws of the Jewish Torah were heavily influenced by the Median (Ezdi Kurdish) Magi laws. The Jews were heavily influenced (also genetically) by the Aryans from Kurdistan (Ranghaya/Media) and Persia.

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## oriental

The 'Pharisees' and 'Pharisaic' laws are probably derived from the word Farsi (Persian), language of the Persians. The descendants of the Pharisees are the present day rabbis. There were three groups in Herod's reign, the Hasmoneans (temple priests), Pharisees and the Essenes who wore white clothes and lived in the desert near the cliffs of the Dead Sea from which Jesus (always in white clothes) probably emerged or is a fictional character.

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## Angela

> The 'Pharisees' and 'Pharisaic' laws are probably derived from the word Farsi (Persian), language of the Persians. The descendants of the Pharisees are the present day rabbis. There were three groups in Herod's reign, the Hasmoneans (temple priests), Pharisees and the Essenes wore white clothes and lived in the desert near the cliffs of the Dead Sea from which Jesus (always in white clothes) probably emerged or is a fictional character.


The Hasmoneans were a ruling family of Israel descended from the Maccabees, who were high priests who led the revolt against the Seleucid Empire or were one party of a civil war, take your pick. Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his rule by marrying a Hasmonean princess. Of course, he ruined it by killing her in a fit of madness. He wiped out the male descendants.

By the time of Herod the Great and Jesus, those posts were filled by Sadducees if I remember correctly. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

"The Pharisee ("separatist") party emerged largely out of the group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic_parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated." It may refer to their separation from Gentiles, sources of ritual impurity or from irreligious Jews.[14] "_

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## A. Papadimitriou

@Goga
The most ancient texts we have are Sumerian, Egyptian and Akkadian. Egyptian was an Afroasiatic language. Akkadian was Afroasiatic-East Semitic. Sumerian was a language isolate but it was influenced by and it influenced Akkadian. Some of the stories of the Bible drew their material from common traditions of Mesopotamia.
Example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_o...Noah.27s_Flood

Torah is considered older than the Vendidad. I don't know if there were any influences like those you describe. I am not at all qualified to say something on it but I am cautious and I doubt it.

Avestan alphabet ultimately comes from Phoenician alphabet.

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## Goga

Not sure about the origin of the Sumerians, but they were definitely 100% not Semitic. But, I do also believe that they partly contributed to the Aryan (Iranid) race.


Vendidad was the youngest book of the Zoroastrians. The oldest books, like Yasna (Gathas) were much older. But somehow the Vendidad was closer to pre-Zoroastrian Aryan religions.


The origin of the Judaism can be traced back in the Mesopotamia. Even the name of their God, *Yahwe*h, has Hurrian origin.
Also the origin of the Iranian (Aryan) religions, like Mithraism, can be trace back into the ancient Mesopotamia. I believe way back to the Sumerians.
Ancient priest class of the Aryan Medes, the Magi, were not Zoroastrian but belonged to native Northern Mesopotamian pre-Zoroastrian Aryan religion.

Even Aryan religions like Mithraism and later proto-Zoroastrianism are older than Judaism. 


Not only the name of the Jewish GOD, *Yahweh*, is from Mesopotamia, but also the laws, rituals of Judaism are derived from the Medes and their Aryan PRE-Zoroastrian religions.



With other words, everything what the Jews knew they learned it from the Northern Mesopotamian folks like the Medes and their ancestors.



BTW, Aryan alphabet of Avesta doesn't look Phoenician to me. Georgian, Armenian alphabets look much more like Aryan alphabet

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## Goga

> The 'Pharisees' and 'Pharisaic' laws are probably derived from the word Farsi (Persian), language of the Persians. The descendants of the Pharisees are the present day rabbis. There were three groups in Herod's reign, the Hasmoneans (temple priests), Pharisees and the Essenes wore white clothes and lived in the desert near the cliffs of the Dead Sea from which Jesus (always in white clothes) probably emerged or is a fictional character.


There're lots of Kurdish Y-DNA (J2a , R1a-M582, etc) and mtDNA (HV, etc) among the Jews.

Jews belong partly to an Aryan (Iranid) race.


much more about it:


Ashkenazi-Levite Jews and their Iranian origin

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2012/0...an-origin.html



Ashkenazi-Levite Jews and their Iranian origin Part II

"_A new publication in Nature comes to the same conclusions about the R1a-M582 Ashkenazi-Levite cluster, it is not East European, it is not Khazarian, it is Iranian._"


http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/1...r-iranian.html

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## oriental

> The Hasmoneans were a ruling family of Israel descended from the Maccabees, who were high priests who led the revolt against the Seleucid Empire or were one party of a civil war, take your pick. Herod the Great tried to bolster the legitimacy of his rule by marrying a Hasmonean princess. Of course, he ruined it by killing her in a fit of madness. He wiped out the male descendants.
> 
> By the time of Herod the Great and Jesus, those posts were filled by Sadducees if I remember correctly. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees
> 
> "The Pharisee ("separatist") party emerged largely out of the group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic_parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated." It may refer to their separation from Gentiles, sources of ritual impurity or from irreligious Jews.[14] "_





> Some believe that it originally meant "interpreter" and referred to the exceptional exegetical abilities of these men in the interpretation of Scripture. Others believe that it had Persian origins and that there was a strong resemblance between various doctrines of the Pharisees and doctrines of Zoroastrianism, the religion of Persia, thus they were referred to as "*Persianizers*."


http://www.bible-history.com/pharise...RISEESName.htm

Don't forget Esther was the Queen of Persia.




> *Esther: Queen of Persia and Advocate for Her People (Esther)* Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi, (1982), 329–32
> *(31-1) Introduction* Esther’s beauty was such that it could catch and hold the eye of an oriental emperor accustomed to being surrounded by loveliness. Combined with physical charms were qualities of spirit that revealed that she had inward beauty as well. The qualities were loyalty, love, and dedication. Submissive yet courageous, yielding yet faithful, she was able to avert the intent of evil individuals determined to destroy her people. Indeed, she saved God’s covenant people from an intended extinction.
> The story of Esther is sacred to the Jews and compelling to all because of her dauntless defense of her convictions and her people. Her name, in the Persian tongue, means “a star”; the many meanings of that symbol are most fitting.


https://www.lds.org/manual/old-testa...er-31?lang=eng

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## A. Papadimitriou

@goga
Read this (from the site you referenced)
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...uages/#scripts




> We do not have any examples of the Aramaic script used to write Old Persian 
> [...]
> The Pahlavi script is said to be derived from Aramaic and consists of a large number of ideograms - Aramaic words that were read as Pahlavi words. It is written from right to left. 
> [...]
> The Avestan script is written from right to left and is said to have been based on the Pahlavi script.




..
Aramaic language was a Semitic language and "The ancient *Aramaic alphabet is adapted from the Phoenician alphabet and became distinctive from it by the 8th century BCE"
*
..
Armenian and Georgian alphabets were created much later. There were probably influences from various existing alphabets then.
About the creator of Armenian alphabet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesrop_Mashtots

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## Maleth

Well lets keep it simple:- 

*)The Phoenician alphabet is the oldest alphabet in the world. 

*)The Hebrew alphabet is directly derived from the Phonetician script (like many other including much of the very script we use today). 

*)The Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics (made simpler). 

Probably literacy would have been a little more widespread in the region to what we would have believed so far, but for sure it was not just confined to Judea when one would consider were the birth of the alphabet occurred the demographics and economy activity of the whole region.

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## Goga

> Well lets keep it simple:- 
> 
> *)The Phoenician alphabet is the oldest alphabet in the world. 
> 
> *)The Hebrew alphabet is directly derived from the Phonetician script (like many other including much of the very script we use today). 
> 
> *)The Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphics (made simpler). 
> 
> Probably literacy would have been a little more widespread in the region to what we would have believed so far, but for sure it was not just confined to Judea when one would consider were the birth of the alphabet occurred the demographics and economy activity of the whole region.


Sumerian cuneiform script is the oldest one. 

"_Sumerian cuneiform is the earliest known writing system. Its origins can be traced back to about 8,000 BC and it developed from the pictographs and other symbols used to represent trade goods and livestock on clay tablets._"

http://omniglot.com/writing/sumerian.htm



_"The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform."
_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script


_"The signs of the Sumerians were adopted by the East Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia and Akkadian became the first Semitic language and would be used by the Babylonians and Assyrians."
_
http://www.historian.net/hxwrite.htm

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## Goga

> Armenian and Georgian alphabets were created much later. There were probably influences from various existing alphabets then.
> About the creator of Armenian alphabet.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesrop_Mashtots


I was born in Georgia. Of course I know that Georgian alphabet is not that old. But what I've tried to say is that Aryan and the Hurrian alphabets were related.


All alphabets were derived from the Sumerians in the first place.


Sumerian writings are the oldest known writings to date. Maybe there were older writings, but we don't have any findings of it yet. And Sumerians were not Semitic.

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## Maleth

> Sumerian cuneiform script is the oldest one. 
> 
> "_Sumerian cuneiform is the earliest known writing system. Its origins can be traced back to about 8,000 BC and it developed from the pictographs and other symbols used to represent trade goods and livestock on clay tablets._"


Cuneiform and alphabet systems are two different forms of writing (as you well know). So the Phoenician alphabet will be the oldest form. Although the Cuneiform method is older, evolved by time and was simplified it still cannot be classified as alphabet which eventually have made cuneiform methods obsolete as in relation to the semitic language mentioned in this thread.

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## Maleth

> All alphabets were derived from the Sumerians in the first place.


?

"The history of alphabetic writing goes back to the consonantal writing system used for Semitic languages in the Levant in the 2nd millennium BCE. Most or nearly all alphabetic scripts used throughout the world today ultimately go back to this Semitic proto-alphabet.[1] Its first origins can be traced back to a Proto-Sinaitic script developed in Ancient Egypt to represent the language of Semitic-speaking workers in Egypt. This script was partly influenced by the older Egyptian hieratic, a cursive script related to Egyptian hieroglyphs"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

Goga were do you get your information from?

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## Goga

> ?
> 
> "The history of alphabetic writing goes back to the consonantal writing system used for Semitic languages in the Levant in the 2nd millennium BCE. Most or nearly all alphabetic scripts used throughout the world today ultimately go back to this Semitic proto-alphabet.[1] Its first origins can be traced back to a Proto-Sinaitic script developed in Ancient Egypt to represent the language of Semitic-speaking workers in Egypt. This script was partly influenced by the older Egyptian hieratic, a cursive script related to Egyptian hieroglyphs"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet
> 
> Goga were do you get your information from?


From your own source: 

" _Predecessors[edit]

Two scripts are well attested from before the end of the fourth millennium BCE: Mesopotamian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs._ "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet


" _The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire._ "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script

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## Goga

> Cuneiform and alphabet systems are two different forms of writing (as you well know). So the Phoenician alphabet will be the oldest form. Although the Cuneiform method is older, evolved by time and was simplified it still cannot be classified as alphabet which eventually have made cuneiform methods obsolete as in relation to the semitic language mentioned in this thread.


But the so called 'Phoenician alphabet' is *DERIVED* from a cuneiform script.

Sumerian is the oldest of the cuneiform scripts (writings), older than Egypt. Sumerian writings are ancestral to many alphabets after it.


Sumerians were simply the first. And the Aryan writings were influenced by the more ancient Sumerian writings.



" _The Sumerians were one of the earliest urban societies to emerge in the world, in Southern Mesopotamia more than 5000 years ago.  They developed a writing system whose wedge-shaped strokes would influence the style of scripts in the same geographical area for the next 3000 years. Eventually, all of these diverse writing systems, which encompass both logophonetic, consonantal alphabetic, and syllabic systems, became known as cuneiform.

__It is actually possible to trace the long road of the invention of the Sumerian writing system. For 5000 years before the appearance of writing in Mesopotamia, there were small clay objects in abstract shapes, called clay tokens, that were apparently used for counting agricultural and manufactured goods. As time went by, the ancient Mesopotamians realized that they needed a way to keep all the clay tokens securely together (to prevent loss, theft, etc), so they started putting multiple clay tokens into a large, hollow clay container which they then sealed up. However, once sealed, the problem of remembering how many tokens were inside the container arose. To solve this problem, the Mesopotamians started impressing pictures of the clay tokens on the surface of the clay container with a stylus. Also, if there were five clay tokens inside, they would impress the picture of the token five times, and so problem of what and how many inside the container was solved._
_
Subsequently, the ancient Mesopotamians stopped using clay tokens altogether, and simply impressed the symbol of the clay tokens on wet clay surfaces. In addition to symbols derived from clay tokens, they also added other symbols that were more pictographic in nature, i.e. they resemble the natural object they represent. Moreover, instead of repeating the same picture over and over again to represent multiple objects of the same type, they used diferent kinds of small marks to "count" the number of objects, thus adding a system for enumerating objects to their incipient system of symbols. Examples of this early system represents some of the earliest texts found in the Sumerian cities of Uruk and Jamdat Nasr around 3300 BCE, such as the one below._ "





http://www.ancientscripts.com/sumerian.html




Sumerian cuneiform were older and more advanced than those in Egypt.

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## A. Papadimitriou

Yes, the Sumerians didn't speak a Semitic language. It's considered language isolate. But what makes them "Aryan"? Nothing.

"_The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire. "

^That doesn't prove anything. Sumerian wasn't Semitic or Indoeuropean. From those languages, IE are Hittite, Luwian and Old Persian. Akkadian, Eblaite and Ugaritic were Semitic. So the first Indoeuropeans who used a script derived from the Sumerian script were the Hittites (at least according to the evidence we have).

_

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## Maleth

> But the so called 'Phoenician alphabet' is *DERIVED* from a cuneiform script.


alphabet is more specific and detailed then cuneiform. One could write a sentence as if they were speaking. I believe that linguists agree the Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs which is not an alphabet but also a type of cuneiform script, meaning expressing one self with a symbol and not alphabet. 




> Sumerian is the oldest of the cuneiform scripts (writings), older than Egypt.


agreed, although it seems that Egyptian Hieroglyphics seem to have developed independently to their Sumerian counterpart.




> Sumerian writings are ancestral to many alphabets after it.


Yes to some but not the ones we are discussing on this thread. Maybe I am mistaken but the ones influenced by Sumerian cuneiform script are now extinct. 





> Sumerian cuneiform were older and more advanced than those in Egypt.


Probably they were, but never the less they were mostly based on symbols similar to the ones of the Vinca culture in old Europe. However the more progressive alphabet seems to be influenced by the Egyptian hieroglyphics and not Sumerian system. Of course I am not excluding that it might be possible that there was inter cultural exchanges between the cuneiform systems, but if there was it does not seem to be clear or straight forward and both systems seems, at least on the large part, to have developed independently.

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## RobertColumbia

> alphabet is more specific and detailed then cuneiform. One could write a sentence as if they were speaking. I believe that linguists agree the Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs which is not an alphabet but also a type of cuneiform script, meaning expressing one self with a symbol and not alphabet....


No, the term _cuneiform_ means "wedge shaped" and refers to the distinctive look of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Old Persian symbols that was a result of the writing tools that they preferred, regardless of whether they were writing with an alphabetic system or some other system. In a similar sense, you could refer to Japanese, Chinese, and Korean writing as "brush characters" because they were all traditionally painted with a paintbrush, despite the fact that Korean is alphabetic, Japanese is syllabic with some full-word characters, and Chinese uses word-symbols.

I think the word you want is _logographic_. This refers to building a writing system based on characters that represent ideas, concepts, and objects rather than characters that represent sounds.

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## Maleth

> No, the term _cuneiform_ means "wedge shaped" and refers to the distinctive look of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Old Persian symbols that was a result of the writing tools that they preferred, regardless of whether they were writing with an alphabetic system or some other system.


That would proof that Sumerian and Egyptian writing systems were separate and the Phoenician alphabet (The oldest one in the world) was Derived from the Egyptian form and not the Sumerian....(visa vi to Gogas argument who claims the opposite).

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## Goga

> Yes, the Sumerians didn't speak a Semitic language. It's considered language isolate. But what makes them "Aryan"? Nothing.
> 
> "_The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire. "
> 
> ^That doesn't prove anything. Sumerian wasn't Semitic or Indoeuropean. From those languages, IE are Hittite, Luwian and Old Persian. Akkadian, Eblaite and Ugaritic were Semitic. So the first Indoeuropeans who used a script derived from the Sumerian script were the Hittites (at least according to the evidence we have).
> 
> _


Sumerians predate Aryan/Modern Iranian (Iranid race) folks. Sumerian were ancestors of the Modern Aryans who came after the Sumerians. More precisely the Mitanni and their descendants the Medes. The Medes who were evolved from the Mitanni were the first who called themselves 'Aryans'. Right after the Sumerian disappeared, Hittites and the Mitanni came into the existence. I'm sure that the Sumerians contributed to the genepool of the Hittites and Mitanni and maybe other Anatolian IEan speakers in the region.

From the modern founding it is assumed that the Sumerians lived in the Northern Parts of the Mesopotamia, Kurdistan. They found some years ago Sumerian writing of epic of Gilgamesh in Kurdistan, Sulemania. It is now assumed that that epic took place in Kurdistan.

All the ancient writings in Mesopotamia, like the Aryan writing (ancient Avestan), were influenced by the Sumerians. The Sumerians lived at the same place where Aryans came to birth and evolved. So, of course the Aryan writings were closer to the Sumerians than to the Egyptians who lived in the different area further away.

Btw, the Levant was also part of the ancient Egypt. Maybe the Egyptians learned the writing from the Sumerians around Lebanon/Syria. Because the Sumerians predate the Egyptians.


Why I'm telling this? Jews like it or not, most of their knowledge they took it from Northern Mesopotamia (even their GOD, Yahweh). With other words, *the Jews invented nothing*, but they were heavily influenced by the Northern Mesopotamian/ARYAN (Iranid race) folks (Magi/the Medes). Jews are overrated, and folks in general and even the Jews themselves are overestimating the Jews.

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## Yetos

Σαδουκαιοι were Φαρισαιοι that accepted ressuction
they were same class and origin, simply they accepted the ressuction after death,

there were 2 class of elite Judaians at Herodes times,

1) the temple priest from who origin from tribe Levi Λεβιτες
2)* the lawers, the Φαρισσαιοι,* who know to write, explain, and teach the law of Moses, 
Pharissaioi were a class, not a tribe, neither separated, they were the judges and lawers of that time Judea, the priviledged ones,
*Pharrissaioi counsil was the high court of Judeans
*Sadoukaioi were Pharrissaioi who accepted resurection

at new testament always Pharrissaioi ask Christ to 'explain the law'
and Jesus always say about them cause they 'made' the law according their measures

a third kind of priest were Εσσαιοι who lived in system that had nothing to do with Judeans or Samareitans, they lived in comonalities
at new testament are mentioned as Hellenized Jews, yet later they revolt against Romans and dissapear,
it is said that they were all Jesus students and followers, but later at 60 AD they change him for another Messiah,
many also coonect zealots Maccabi with Essaioi,
but their way of life and comonality is not compined with traditional Jew way of life of that time

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## Yetos

> Probably they were, but never the less they were mostly based on symbols similar to the ones of the Vinca culture in old Europe. However the more progressive alphabet seems to be influenced by the Egyptian hieroglyphics and not Sumerian system. Of course I am not excluding that it might be possible that there was inter cultural exchanges between the cuneiform systems, but if there was it does not seem to be clear or straight forward and both systems seems, at least on the large part, to have developed independently.


that is a strange truth, writting symbols at Balkans are far ancient, but until now no full text found before Ugaritic text,

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## Coriolan

Regarding the topic's title, how do we know that it wasn't written by scribes? It was a common practice in the ancient world, and not just in Egypt. 

Sent from my LG-D620 using Tapatalk

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## Angela

> Regarding the topic's title, how do we know that it wasn't written by scribes? It was a common practice in the ancient world, and not just in Egypt. 
> 
> Sent from my LG-D620 using Tapatalk


From the authors:

"*The analysis suggests that at least six different people, ranging in rank from the commander of the fort down to the deputy quartermaster, had written these texts. All of the writers used proper spelling and syntax. Similar ostracons have been found at other border forts, suggesting that writing was widespread, at least within the Judahite army. "*

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