# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  R1* history, put together by me!

## Goga

I think I solved the riddle, by putting everything together from different sources. Everything comes together and all questions answered.

Y-DNA haplogorup R* could have been evolved somewhere in Central Asia.





After some time R* migrated into the Iranian Plateau and evolved into R1*, for about 30,000 years ago.





R1* became a ‘Caucasus’ component marker. After couple thousands of years when the ice age ended in Northern Eurasia, R1* migrated into Europe and back into the Central Asia as R1a.





One part of R1* that ended up in the Eastern Europe did that via Central Asia. R1a went to Central Asia, picked up some (2-3%) Siberian genes and became a Gedrosia component. After that it migrated into Europe from Central Asia. Gedrosia component diluted in Eastern Europe, but there's still 30% of Gedrosia component left in North_European component.





One part of R1* stayed for a little while on the Iranian plateau, evolved into R1b and then, went directly to Western Europe via Anatolian plains.

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## bicicleur

> After some time R* migrated into the Iranian Plateau


What was he looking for on the Iranian plateau, I don't think it was an interesting place, 30.000 years ago.

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## Aberdeen

I don't buy your timeline, Goga. Mal'ta Boy was R* about 24,000 years ago, so R1a and R1b clearly weren't around yet, unless you think that Mal'ta Boy was just an isolated surviving R*. To me, it seems more likely that R originally evolved in southern Siberia. 

I also don't buy the idea of early Indo-Europeans going southeast then north then west around the Caspian Sea - there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes, just as indicated in their legends. If the Maykop people were precursors of the Indo-Europeans, there's no reason they wouldn't have just gone north from the Caucasus onto the steppes to join nomadic R1a folk.

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## bicicleur

> 


This looks interesting.
Where did you get the numbers of mutations?
On how many sites where the mutations tested?

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## Aberdeen

Sorry, Goga, but the more I look at your diagrams and comments, the more they baffle me.

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## Goga

> What was he looking for on the Iranian plateau, I don't think it was an interesting place, 30.000 years ago.


Food? Better, warmer climate. Iranian Plateau looked different in the past.

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## Goga

> I don't buy your timeline, Goga. Mal'ta Boy was R* about 24,000 years ago, so R1a and R1b clearly weren't around yet, unless you think that Mal'ta Boy was just an isolated surviving R*. To me, it seems more likely that R originally evolved in southern Siberia. 
> 
> 
> I also don't buy the idea of early Indo-Europeans going southeast then north then west around the Caspian Sea - there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes, just as indicated in their legends. If the Maykop people were precursors of the Indo-Europeans, there's no reason they wouldn't have just gone north from the Caucasus onto the steppes to join nomadic R1a folk.


This timeline wasn't made by me, but showed to me by a critic of my theory. I suggested to him that R1* evolved much later, but he showed to me that R1* was evolved much earlier. Accordin to him (I have no knowledge on this) MA1 is an isolated case. But the time is not really changing the migation pattern.

This migration was occured thousands years before the Medes or Persians ever existed. I'm talking about early R1a*, Medes & Persians came much later and were late R1a-Z94 or something..

I'm talking about the time when admix components were forming.

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## Goga

> This looks interesting.
> Where did you get the numbers of mutations?
> On how many sites where the mutations tested?


It's not my timeline. I've got this from somebody else. I used this only for illustration. They're talking abot this timeline here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post20838

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## Goga

> Sorry, Goga, but the more I look at your diagrams and comments, the more they baffle me.


It's ok, mate. I'll be a very happy person if they make you think only for 1 minute. Then I achived my purpose.

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## LeBrok

@Goga. When using someone elses work please provide the source information, or link to the source material.

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## Aberdeen

> This timeline wasn't made by me, but showed to me by a critic of my theory. I suggested to him that R1* evolved much later, but he showed to me that R1* was evolved much earlier. Accordin to him (I have no knowledge on this) MA1 is an isolated case. But the time is not really changing the migation pattern.
> 
> This migration was occured thousands years before the Medes or Persians ever existed. I'm talking about early R1a*, Medes & Persians came much later and were late R1a-Z94 or something..
> 
> I'm talking about the time when admix components were forming.


I'd be interested in seeing any evidence that R1a and R1b evolved that long ago. And if your migration map shows a migration that happened thousands of years before the Medes and Persians, you can't be talking about the Indo-Europeans, so why are the Doric Greeks shown on the map? I don't understand.

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## Goga

> I'd be interested in seeing any evidence that R1a and R1b evolved that long ago. And if your migration map shows a migration that happened thousands of years before the Medes and Persians, you can't be talking about the Indo-Europeans, so why are the Doric Greeks shown on the map? I don't understand.


As you can read on that 23andme source, they believe that R1* arose in the Middle East *at least* 15,000 years ago. So it is saying hat R1* is from the Near East. If we take a look at the first time line, it says that R1* evolved between 28,000 and 34,000 years ago. Between 28,000 and 34,000 years ago, some of R1* headed to the south into the Iranian Plateau, where it was a warmer. R1* stayed in the Near East for a while before migrating again in 2 waves, this time 1 line went to Europe, second line went to Central Asia. The first wave of R1* went to Central Asia and became R1*, this took place *at least* 15,000 years ago, but can also be 20,000 years ago. Second part of R1* that stayed in Near East and later migrated into Europe, evolved later in R1b. The second wave of R1* out of Near East via Anatolia into Europe occured much later than the first wave. When? I'm not sure.

The Medes evolved from Matiene (Mittani, Mannaens) in the Middle East only 3,000-3,500 years ago, they were very late classical Iranian people. While R1* or R1a went into Central Asia maybe 15,000 years ago. 15,000 years ago when this 'first wave' migration occured, it was long before the Indo-Europeans.

That western Arrow of Doric is the 'Second Wave' of R1* or in this case R1b migration into Europe. I think this happened maybe 6,000-9,000 years ago. Copper or Bronze age diffusion? It's possible that this 'second wave' was already Indo-European.

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## Aberdeen

> ..............
> 
> The Medes evolved from Matiene (Mittani, Mannaens) in the Middle East only 3,000-3,500 years ago, they were very late classical Iranian people. While R1* or R1a went into Central Asia maybe 15,000 years ago. 15,000 years ago when this 'first wave' migration occured, it was long before the Indo-Europeans.
> 
> That western Arrow of Doric is the 'Second Wave' of R1* or in this case R1b migration into Europe. I think this happened maybe 6,000-9,000 years ago. Copper or Bronze age diffusion? It's possible that this 'second wave' was already Indo-European.


Yes, the Medes and Persians entered Iran when their language had already evolved away from the initial proto-Indo-European into a distinct language - I doubt there were Indo-Europeans in Iran before that. But how could the Dorics already be IE 6000-9000 years ago in Anatolia? Linguists tell us that a new language usually evolves in a very specific area, and separates into distinct languages fairly quickly once a geographic separation occurs. Even if the linguists are wrong about the rate at which languages changed in the past, the IE expansion from the steppes seems to be supported by archeological evidence and R1a seems to have been an important part of the IE expansion, since we find it all over Europe and Asia, and in modern India R1a, and to some extent J2, seem to be the main haplotypes of the Brahmins who are the guardians of what evolved out of the IE invasions in that part of the world. I have trouble seeing the R1b folk as possible Indo-Europeans 6000-9000 years ago if you think they were entering Greece from Anatolia back then. Either R1b folk weren't IE when they entered Europe or Maciamo is right about them being part of the IE expansion from the steppe in the early bronze age, even though there's not much genetic trace of R1b having expanded from that area.

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## Goga

> Yes, the Medes and Persians entered Iran when their language had already evolved away from the initial proto-Indo-European into a distinct language - I doubt there were Indo-Europeans in Iran before that. But how could the Dorics already be IE 6000-9000 years ago in Anatolia? Linguists tell us that a new language usually evolves in a very specific area, and separates into distinct languages fairly quickly once a geographic separation occurs. Even if the linguists are wrong about the rate at which languages changed in the past, the IE expansion from the steppes seems to be supported by archeological evidence and R1a seems to have been an important part of the IE expansion, since we find it all over Europe and Asia, and in modern India R1a, and to some extent J2, seem to be the main haplotypes of the Brahmins who are the guardians of what evolved out of the IE invasions in that part of the world. I have trouble seeing the R1b folk as possible Indo-Europeans 6000-9000 years ago if you think they were entering Greece from Anatolia back then. Either R1b folk weren't IE when they entered Europe or Maciamo is right about them being part of the IE expansion from the steppe in the early bronze age, even though there's not much genetic trace of R1b having expanded from that area.


This is OT, but the Medes spoke a *West* Iranian language (Avestan or close to Avestan). According to me West Iranian languages evolved in the Near East from Near Eastern proto-Iranians like Matiene (Mittani) or Kassites.

It's possible that the 'second wave' migration of R1* (in this case R1b) occured between South and North Caucasus.

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## Aberdeen

> This is OT, but the Medes spoke a *West* Iranian language (Avestan or close to Avestan). According to me West Iranian languages evolved in the Near East from Near Eastern proto-Iranians like Matiene (Mittani) or Kassites.
> 
> It's possible that the 'second wave' migration of R1* (in this case R1b) occured between South and North Caucasus.


I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite. So, at approximately the time these two groups were coming into being, the Medes were in the process of bringing a branch of the Iranian language to Iran. And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.

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## Alan

> I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite. So, at approximately the time these two groups were coming into being, the Medes were in the process of bringing a branch of the Iranian language to Iran. And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.


What about if the Mitanni Elite was actually the Medes who just fled their homeland in Eastern Anatolia (Umman Manda). I don't remember where but I remember to have red some papers, that the Greeks and other sources associated the Medes with the Mitannis. 

I for some reasons believe in this theory Gutians=Mitanni=Medes.




> *Umman Manda* (Akkadian for _host of Manda_)* is a term used in the early second and first millennia BC for a poorly known people in ancient near east whom by some scholars are identified as to be of Indo-European origin. They have been identified as in different contexts as Hurrians, Elamites, Medes, Cimmerians, and Scythians.[1] The homeland of Ummanda seems to be somewhere from Central Anatolia to north or northeastern Babylonia in what later came to be known as Mitanni, Mannae and Media, respectively.*Zaluti, a leader of Ummanda Manda is mentioned, whose name seems to have an Indo-Iranian etymology. He is even suggested to be identified with Salitis the founder of the Hyksos, the Fifteenth dynasty of Egypt.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umman-Manda

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## Goga

> And none of that explains your view that the Dorians invaded Greece as IE folk 6000-9000 years ago. I may be wrong, but I personally don't think any of this holds together.


I don't know much about Dorians. Forget about them for a sec. By the 'second wave' migration iI mean R1b folks in general and not some kind of tribes/people by name. I wrote earlier that I do consider it as a very possibility that Rb1 migrated from South to North Caucasus, R1b could also take a boat and crossed the Black Sea.


It's about an idea that R1b took a direct route to Europe, while R1a took a passage via Central Asia before entering Easter Europe. And first wave left much earlier than the second wave.

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## Goga

> I don't think so. The Medes spoke a northwestern Iranian language and were busy invading Iran about 3500 years ago, about the time the Mitanni were creating their short-lived kingdom in western Anatolia. And the experts seem to consider the Mitanni to be a multilingual folk who were probably ruled by an IE elite. Same for the Kassites who conquered large parts of what is now Iraq about the same time - they're assumed to have been largely non-IE, although perhaps ruled by an IE elite


This is off topic, but let me say this. I'm tired of always speaking about the same d*mn thing. People don't want to understand, and I don't feel te urge anymore to explain them something about my native language. This language is a realty that nobody can change. It is what it is.
But for the last time, the Medes spoke a West Iranian language. That language was only common in the Near East and nowhere else, due to the ergative constrution. East Iranian languages in Central Asia don't have ergatve construction. Ergative construction is very common in Caucasian and Proto-Semitic languages and was also part of proto-Iranian. The language of te Medes was born in Near East where other ergtative languages were spoken. On internet alot info is wrong and in conflict with known facts.
Ancient Greeks never wrote that the Medes were not native to their homeland or that the Medes came from somewhere else. According to the ancient Greeks the Medes were native to their homeland and actually for the Greeks & Assyrians the Mittani, Matiene and the Medes were all the same people.
It's much more complicated then most think

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## Aberdeen

> What about if the Mitanni Elite was actually the Medes who just fled their homeland in Eastern Anatolia (Umman Manda). I don't remember where but I remember to have red some papers, that the Greeks and other sources associated the Medes with the Mitannis. 
> 
> I for some reasons believe in this theory Gutians=Mitanni=Medes.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umman-Manda


Well, according to an unimpeachable source (Wikipedia), the Hurrian language was not related to either the Indo-European or Semitic languages. Since I know very little about linguistics, I can't say for sure whether that's the truth. However, I have read a far bit about how linguists believe that new bodies of language evolve, and I believe the theory is that it happens in a fairly limited locale, with the original proto-language evolving fairly rapidly into separate but related languages once the initial group spreads out. And I'm convinced, on the basis of what experts have to say about the archeological evidence, that the IE expansion started from the steppes of Southern Russia, which to me means that the main vehicle of such an expansion would have been people who were primarily eastern Europeans, who I believe were predominantly of the R1a haplotype. I therefore think that the IE proto-language developed someplace other than Anatolia, and that any IE languages that seem to have some Semetic characteristics are as a result of later influences. However, I am aware of the Anatolian hypothesis with respect to the IE homeland, which would put a whole different complexion on the development of the IE proto-language and who developed it. I assume that sort of thing is more in line with your thinking on the subject of the IE homeland?

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## Alan

> Well, according to an unimpeachable source (Wikipedia), the Hurrian language was not related to either the Indo-European or Semitic languages. Since I know very little about linguistics, I can't say for sure whether that's the truth. However, I have read a far bit about how linguists believe that new bodies of language evolve, and I believe the theory is that it happens in a fairly limited locale, with the original proto-language evolving fairly rapidly into separate but related languages once the initial group spreads out. And I'm convinced, on the basis of what experts have to say about the archeological evidence, that the IE expansion started from the steppes of Southern Russia, which to me means that the main vehicle of such an expansion would have been people who were primarily eastern Europeans, who I believe were predominantly of the R1a haplotype. I therefore think that the IE proto-language developed someplace other than Anatolia, and that any IE languages that seem to have some Semetic characteristics are as a result of later influences. However, I am aware of the Anatolian hypothesis with respect to the IE homeland, which would put a whole different complexion on the development of the IE proto-language and who developed it. I assume that sort of thing is more in line with your thinking on the subject of the IE homeland?


The thing is, Hurrians had allot of Indo European traditions and if one thing I have learned, it is when linguists classify a language as isolated it could very simply mean that they haven't yet identified it.

Other than that I don't believe that the Medes-Mitanni connection and Umman Manda is connected to Hurrians but that this land, where Hurrians resided too, was populated by Indo European tribes. 

As I said I remember sources saying that the Medes were basically descend from the Mitanni.

You probably misunderstood something. That Umman Manda was located in between Central Anatolia and Babylon (South Mesopotamia) doesn't mean proto Indo Europeans had to have come from there too. Just that this area was a of importance for the Near Eastern Indo European groups. Also the "Anatolian hypothesis" places the origin of Indo European in West_Central Anatolia. While Umman Manda was Central Anatolia to South Mesopotamia.

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## Aberdeen

> The thing is, Hurrians had allot of Indo European traditions and if one thing I have learned, it is when linguists classify a language as isolated it could very simply mean that they haven't yet identified it.
> 
> Other than that I don't believe that the Medes-Mitanni connection and Umman Manda is connected to Hurrians but that this land, where Hurrians resided too, was populated by Indo European tribes. 
> 
> As I said I remember sources saying that the Medes were basically descend from the Medes.
> 
> You probably misunderstood something. That Umman Manda was located in between Central Anatolia and Babylon (South Mesopotamia) doesn't mean proto Indo Europeans had to have come from there too. Just that this area was a of importance for the Near Eastern Indo European groups. Also the "Anatolian hypothesis" places the origin of Indo European in West_Central Anatolia. While Umman Manda was Central Anatolia to South Mesopotamia.


No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I just don't see the logic of arguing that there were IE speakers anywhere other than the steppes (or possibly the north Caucasus) prior to the bronze age IE expansion. I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups. But if you and Goga don't agree with me, I'm fine with that.

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## Goga

> I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups.


But my friend, the Bronze Age kicked off in the south of the Black/Caspian Sea, not north of it, about 6,000 years ago..

But then again it is offtopic and has nothing to do with 'R1*', or at least the 'first wave' migration toward Central Asia. Maybe it has something to do with the 'second wave' of R1(b) into Europe...

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## Aberdeen

> But my friend, the Bronze Age kicked off in the south of the Black/Caspian Sea, not north of it, about 6,000 years ago..
> 
> But then again it is offtopic and has nothing to do with 'R1*', or at least the 'first wave' migration toward Central Asia. Maybe it has something to do with the 'second wave' of R1(b) into Europe...


I think it would be easier for me to understand what you're saying if you didn't mix up vastly different time periods. And it isn't a case of who was the first to create bronze. To me, when we're talking about the IE language group, it's a case of trying to understand where it started from. To say that you think R* was in Anatolia 25,000 years ago doesn't tell us anything about when or where certain linguistic groups started from, even if your assumptions about really ancient R1b in Anatolia are correct. And, so far, the oldest R* we've got is from Siberia. Yes, that _could_ be an outlier, but at the moment it's the only evidence we've got about ancient R, and it was found in Siberia.

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## Goga

> And, so far, the oldest R* we've got is from Siberia. Yes, that _could_ be an outlier, but at the moment it's the only evidence we've got about ancient R, and it was found in Siberia.


Bronze Age began with the Sumerians. Sumerians were the first and I can't think of any other ancient advanced culture before the Sumerian that could have revolutionized the Bronze Age. And let say that R* is from Siberia/Central Asia, how much time is there between R* and R1*. I'm sure in those thousands of years there was a moment that R* from Cenral Asia migrated directly into the Iranian Plateau and evolved into R1*. Norheastern part of the Iranian Plateau is practically Central Asia, and there is a Central Asian corridor between Central Asia and the Iranian Plateu.


And did you know that the first ever known indiviual to be called a Mede by Assyrians was called by the name ' *Hanasiruka* '. And it seems that his name is not of known Indo-European origin and currently cannot be safely attributed to any known language. Sounds to me like a name of the Kasites.

I've got this info from here : http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...the-Medes-quot


Page 37-64 of this book : https://www.academia.edu/441280/2003...ova_2003_37-64

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## Aberdeen

Goga, since I can't understand what arguments you're trying to make, I'm probably going to give up on this discussion. IMO, the beginning of the Bronze Age in Sumeria has nothing to do with the evolution of R* or R1*. Perhaps we can agree that the Bronze Age reached different parts of Eurasia at different times, and that how the locals responded to such a change varied from place to place. However, IMO, the Indo-Iranic folk who descended on Iran from the north about 3500 years ago spoke an Indo-Iranic language and their predominant Y haplotype was probably R1a - it happened long after R1a and R1b developed. And who the Medes became as they mixed with other folk over the succeeding centuries is irrelevant, IMO. If you want to argue that R1b somehow originated in Anatolia, fine, present some arguments, but that doesn't prove anything about what language they spoke originally. If you want to argue that the IE language and culture originated in Anatolia on the basis that the IE languages in Anatolia seem to be older than Indo-Iranian, fine. I don't think that proves what some people think it proves, but whatever. I just don't see any point in jumbling together unrelated issues or different time periods.

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## LeBrok

> I just don't see any point in jumbling together unrelated issues or different time periods.


It is interesting that this "Temporal Scale Recognition Syndrome" happens way too often, at least to my liking. If there are no records between two already attested historical events, it feels for some, that nothing interesting could have happened in between,( what between?). Analogous to thinking that if we are not in the forest the trees fall without a sound, or they don't fall at all.

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## Goga

> Goga, since I can't understand what arguments you're trying to make,


Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.




> I'm probably going to give up on this discussion. IMO, the beginning of the Bronze Age in Sumeria has nothing to do with the evolution of R* or R1*.


You brought the Bronze Age into disussion, NOT me. And made it more complicated and created confusion. 




> who the Medes became as they mixed with other folk over the succeeding centuries is irrelevant, IMO.


This is what you wrote earlier : "_there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes_".
I was just showing you that you were wrong about the Medes and that the Medes were actually the natives to their lands. The Medes NEVER invaded Zagros Montains, they were NATIVE to Zagros Mountains. The Medes ARE Zagros Mountains!


And now you're blamig me for creating confusion? Is this a bad joke, or what?

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## Alan

> No, I didn't misunderstand anything. I just don't see the logic of arguing that there were IE speakers anywhere other than the steppes (or possibly the north Caucasus) prior to the bronze age IE expansion. I think any IE languages south of the Black Sea arrived there after the bronze age IE expansion and underwent structural changes because of interactions with other linguistic groups. But if you and Goga don't agree with me, I'm fine with that.


Aberdeen, I don't know about Goga but I wasn't even arguing about an Indo European presence in Western Asia prior to bronze age. The only point I tried to make was that Medes likely descend from Mitanni and that "Umman Manda" played a central role for Near Eastern Indo Europeans. 

I didn't said a word about that Proto Indo Europeans formed in the Near East or the Steppes. That isn't what I am arguing about. I simply stated that I doubt that a second Indo_Iranian wave took place.

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## Alan

> Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.


We don't know where exactly R1* formed. But currently Central Asia looks allot more likely.

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## Goga

> Aberdeen, I don't know about Goga but I wasn't even arguing about an Indo European presence in Western Asia prior to bronze age. ...
> 
> ... I didn't said a word about that Proto Indo Europeans formed in the Near East or the Steppes. ...


Me neither. In my initial post Í was talking about halgogoup R1* and not about languages at all.


Damn, some folks are really suffering delusional paranoia! But never mind that this thread is already destroyed by off topic nonsense!

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## Goga

> We don't know where exactly R1* formed. But currently Central Asia looks allot more likely.


But according to 23andme website it is from the Middle East.

And are we 100% sure that R1* is from Central Asia? Because I believe that R1* gave birth both to 'Gedrosia' and to 'North_European' components thousands of years (at least 15,000) ago as I described earlier. Gedrosia is a little bit mixed with Mongloid, while native North_European component is mixed with a little bit Mongoloid and more with Gedrosia.

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## Alan

> Me neither. In my initial post Í was talking about halgogoup R1* and not about languges at all.
> 
> 
> Damn, some folks are really suffering delusional paranoia! But never mind that this thread is already destroyed by off topic nonsense!


Heval Goga
I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.

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## Sile

> Read my first post. That R1* is from the Middle East and not Central Asia. I thought I was clear.
> 
> You brought the Bronze Age into disussion, NOT me. And made it more complicated and created confusion. 
> 
> This is what you wrote earlier : "_there's plenty of archeological evidence that the Medes and Persians invaded what is now Iran from the steppes_".
> I was just showing you that you were wrong about the Medes and that the Medes were actually the natives to their lands. The Medes NEVER invaded Zagros Montains, they were NATIVE to Zagros Mountains. The Medes ARE Zagros Mountains!
> 
> 
> And now you're blamig me for creating confusion? Is this a bad joke, or what?


medes from Zargos mountains...yes agree :Grin: 
Sigynnae are medes .....yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae
 :Startled: 
starting to come together :Heart:

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## Goga

> Heval Goga
> I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.


I'm sorry if I offended somebody, but it was not me who started talking about proto-Iranians, Bronze Age and PIE theories, while I was only talking about R1* of at least 15,000 years old, lol!

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## Goga

> medes from Zargos mountains...yes agree
> Sigynnae are medes .....yes
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae
> 
> starting to come together


Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros! 

Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!

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## Aberdeen

> Heval Goga
> I think you should be a bit more calm and watch out who you call delusional or paranoid. I perceive Aberdeen to be very Objective so far.


Thanks, Alan. But I can see that Goga is quite emotionally invested in his views, so I'm not going to get upset about what he called me. Especially since I apparently misunderstood what he was initially trying to explain. Apparently that map of his with a big arrow and the reference to the diffusion of early IE dialects wasn't actually about IE language at all - it was just a continuation of his view on where R* evolved. And although I intend to treat Mal'ta Boy as an indication rather than an outlier where R* is concerned, it may be a bit reckless to make such an assumption on the basis of one find. And I'm not saying R* arose in Siberia - I believe a lot of folks who know something about the subject think that Central Asia is the probable place of origin for R*. But I don't think anyone (except perhaps Goga) would say that we know for sure where R* arose. And he's entitled to his views. I was just having a bit of trouble deciding which issues and time periods he was and wasn't trying to discuss.

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## Alan

> Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros! 
> 
> Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!


Sigynnae has nothing to do with Cingena. Romas originated somewhere in India and than spread throughout the world.




> Their horses (or rather, ponies) were small and flat-nosed with shaggy long hair, five fingers in length. They were not strong enough to bear men on their backs, but when yoked to chariots, they were among the swiftest known, which is the reason why the people of that country preferred that mode of transportation. *The people themselves wore a Medic costume, and, according to their own account, were colonists from Media,* a claim regarded as doubtful by Herodotus. In Apollonius Rhodius (iv. 320) they inhabit the shores of the Euxine, not far from the mouth of the Danube, while Strabo (xi. p. 520), also speaking of their ponies, and attributing to them Persian customs, places them near the Caspian. They could indeed have been a part of the Iranian expansion, together with the Scythians and Sarmatians migrating west into the Ukraine in the early Iron Age context of the "Thraco-Cimmerian" migrations.


I don't know what modern scientists or even Herodotus claim (though I think he is a reliable source), but if the people clearly considered themselves as colonists from Media and even wore Medic customs.... well.

----------


## Goga

Once again, I'm discussing R1* here and not R*.

R* is the ancestor to R1* and R2*. It's possible that R2 arose somewhere in Central Asia, I don't argue this. While I'm suggesting that R1* arose in the Middle East!


Do not derail this thread and don’t put it into the wrong direction.

----------


## Alan

> Thanks, Alan. But I can see that Goga is quite emotionally invested in his views, so I'm not going to get upset about what he called me. Especially since I apparently misunderstood what he was initially trying to explain. Apparently that map of his with a big arrow and the reference to the diffusion of early IE dialects wasn't actually about IE language at all - it was just a continuation of his view on where R* evolved. And although I intend to treat Mal'ta Boy as an indication rather than an outlier where R* is concerned, it may be a bit reckless to make such an assumption on the basis of one find. And I'm not saying R* arose in Siberia - I believe a lot of folks who know something about the subject think that Central Asia is the probable place of origin for R*. But I don't think anyone (except perhaps Goga) would say that we know for sure where R* arose. And he's entitled to his views. I was just having a bit of trouble deciding which issues and time periods he was and wasn't trying to discuss.


I still believe Mal'ta boy was more like a traveler and his origin was slightly more West. It is still not a 100% sure where R* developed considering the surprises we had so far. I would be rather careful with making clear statements about it.

----------


## Goga

> Sigynnae has nothing to do with Cingena. Romas originated somewhere in India and than spread throughout the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what modern scientists or even Herodotus claim (though I think he is a reliable source), but if the people clearly considered themselves as colonists from Media and even wore Medic customs.... well.


Russians call Gypsies 'Tsigane' or 'Cigane' (Цыгане). Sigynnae and Cigane sound the same...

----------


## Alan

> Once again, I'm discussing R1* here and not R*.
> 
> R* is the ancestor to R1* and R2*. It's possible that R2 arose somewhere in Central Asia, while I'm suggesting that R1* arose in the Middle East!
> 
> 
> Do not derail this thread and don’t put it into the wrong direction.


Mate just read Aberdeens post I think this time it's you who didin't quite understand his post. He recognized that he misunderstood you and now knows that you are arguing about the origin of R*.

----------


## Alan

> Russians call Gypsies 'Tsigane' or 'Cigane' (Цыгане). Sigynnae and Cigane sound the same...


Heval, Ayran (dew in Kurdish) means in Turkish salty Joghurt drink and has absolutely nothing to do with Aryan. And the Romans Romas too. You are making connection based on small word similarities. And comparing this to Sigynnae and Cigane... there is a world difference between them. How do you even come to the conclusion that they sound similar. Considering that they don't call themselves Cigane but Roma and that the Term Cigane is a misinterpretation by Balkanians who thought they were Egyptian immigrants. Gypsie stems from the word Egypt.

----------


## Goga

> Mate just read Aberdeens post I think this time it's you who didin't quite understand his post. He recognized that he misunderstood you and now knows that you are arguing about the origin of R*.


I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R*1** (R *one* *) !

----------


## Alan

> I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R*1** (R *one* *) !


Ok my fault. But he didn't actually said any word about R1* or made any claims about it so no need to get heated.

----------


## Aberdeen

> I'm not arguing about the origin of R*, I'm arguing about te origin of R*1** (R *one* *) !


So you just want to discuss R1*? Well, I personally think there's a good chance that R1* could have developed on the Iranian Plateau or in the Caucasus - some place that would easily explain R1b migrating to Anatolia while its sibling subclade R1a migrated to the Ukraine and the forests of Russia. But I think that's very speculative, and when we finally get some old Y-DNA samples, I could be proven wrong.

----------


## Goga

> So you just want to discuss R1*? Well, I personally think there's a good chance that R1* could have developed on the Iranian Plateau or in the Caucasus - some place that would easily explain R1b migrating to Anatolia while its sibling subclade R1a migrated to the Ukraine and the forests of Russia. But I think that's very speculative, and when we finally get some old Y-DNA samples, I could be proven wrong.


Ok, then. Thanks!

Like Maciamo pointed out R1b is originally from southeast of the Caspian Sea, near Turkmenistan. R1b went the southern route, while R1a* migrated into the Eastern Europe from Central Asia and went the northern route, north of the Caspian Sea, at least 15,000 years ago!


So, I don't think that R1* (R one *) is from Siberia or Altai, like that MA1 boy.

----------


## Sile

> Of course the Medes came from the Zagros (from where else?) and stayed in Zagros! 
> 
> Sigynnae are Gypsies, right? Gypsies are from EVERYWHERE!


no, Sigynnae are Medes due to dress and customs and migrated to pannonia.............but they could have been the Thracian tribe Maedi as they also migrated to Pannonia ( modern Hungary )

If Medes are R1 as I suspect with other ydna ( as per normal migrations) as well. Then we can easily check if central european R1 is the same as medes R1 ..............who are the medes now,?...azeri?

----------


## Alan

> no, Sigynnae are Medes due to dress and customs and migrated to pannonia.............but they could have been the Thracian tribe Maedi as they also migrated to Pannonia ( modern Hungary )
> 
> If Medes are R1 as I suspect with other ydna ( as per normal migrations) as well. Then we can easily check if central european R1 is the same as medes R1 ..............who are the medes now,?...azeri?


Explained here.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post417859

and here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post423166


see here, on the right corner under Iranian languages. 


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ropeanTree.svg

"Kurdish", Zaza-Gorani are languages or dialects spoken by Kurds. The only group listed under Medes->Parthians which is non Kurdish are the Baloch. But than even the Baloch claim to have Kurdish origin and have settled in Baluchistan thousand of years ago.

A Good proof for this thesis is that the Baloch speak a language similar to Kurdish and not Pashtun or other surrounding populations *and* they have typical Kurdish tribes among them.

Like on of them which is basically called Kurd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd_%28Baloch_tribe%29




> *Kurd* (Urdu: کرد‎) is a Baloch tribe in the Balochistan, Sindh, and Punjab provinces of Pakistan. Kurds speak both Balochi and Brahui Also a Sub-clan in Mazari tribe. famous for their gallantry against bugti's. Qadoo khan Kurd was Commander who destroyed Siyah-aff or dera bugti with mazari raiders.
> Famous people who descend from this tribe are Baloch nationalist leader Mir Abdul Aziz Kurd , prominent lawyer Mir Ali Ahmad Kurd and a bureaucrat Mir Ali Gul Kurd.



or the Badini tribe is a Kurdish tribe too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badini


Kurdish groups make up the majority of the descend of Medes. The Kurdish groups among Northwest Iranian languages is so dominant that scientist often tend to call Northwest Iranian (Medic and Parthian) basically "Kurdic". Azeris are basically Turkified Kurds like Shah Ismail.

----------


## Alan

By the way Sile since you mentioned Hungary. Did you know




> *Kurd* is a village in Tolna County, Hungary.
> Kurdish participation in the Ottoman administration in Hungary can be detected in two sorts of references: political and military figures whose Kurdish descent is known and people bearing the name of Kurd/Kurt/Kurth who might or might not have been ethnic Kurds.
> A major literary monument of the nineteenth-century Hungary directly mentions the Kurds within the Ottoman context. Géza Gárdonyi (1863–1922) was one of the writers who contributed to what Anderson described as 'awakening from sleep', or the intellectual attempts to look for historical and linguistic definitions to assert Hungarian identity. He involved the Kurds as heroes of his famous novel Egri Csillagok (Stars over Eger).
> The sources in general indicate on two sorts of Kurdish references: political and military figures whose Kurdish origin is beyond any doubt and people bearing the name of Kurd, Kurt or Kurth who might have been ethnic Kurds.
> Thus, one cannot claim with certainty that the village of Kurd in Southern Hungary is bound to Kurd Pasha, a legendary military chief whose grave is located nearby. Yet, the fact that the residents of Kurd are interested in Kurdish affairs deserves to be highlighted. The name appears as Kurtu in the taxation letter of Dömösi and is to be found in similar forms later on. In 1542, the village belonged to Kaposment, but in 1543 a big portion of the population left it. In 1559-1560 a part of the residents came back. The rest, who moved to other places, kept their family names as Kurdi, and now one of the well-known Hungarian writers bears the name Imre Kurdi.
> In 1730, decades after the Ottoman withdrawal from Hungary, the name Kurd were to be found in a source indicating on neopopulata possessio Kurd. But starting from 1729, new migrants came from central Hungary and were mostly of Slavic, Serbian and Slovak, as well as Magyar ethnic background. Since the midst of the eighteenth century and until the end of the World War II, the majority of the population were the Rheinland Germans, At present it is mixed: German, Hungarian and Gypsy. Yet, all of the 2000 residents proudly refer to themselves as Kurdi, a local patriotic definition which has lost any connotation with the legendary Kurd Pasha.
> Another exempel can be: Yet, the most direct hint on the Kurdish factor in Hungary is the village of Kurd in Tolna county. The village and its mayor, Mr. István Cser and other residents came to the following conclusion: even if the name proves not to be a derivation from the ethnonym, the very possibility, in popular mind, of such a link is remarkable. Even more intriguing were the words of the local school-teacher Mrs. Ilona Tarr who in a private conversation reflected on the Abdullah Ocalan abduction scandal: "Though we are not Kurds – just the residents of the village of Kurd – we have been following the Ocalan affair. We took it personally, God knows why!"
> After approximately 200 years of residency, Kurd's ethnic German Danube Swabian population was dispossessed of its property and forcibly removed to Germany following the end of World War II.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd,_Hungary

I don't remember who exactly but there was a Hungarian minister who said to Barzani, during a visit in Hungary, that his ancestors were Kurds who came during the Ottoman Empire. Many people believe that the Ottomans who marshed through Europe were Turks but in fact There are allot of Kurdish presence from Greece all the way into Hungary and from Istanbul to Egypt and Yemen.


Since I have started this I will add another one. Recently a book was published in Egypt with the title "Kurds in Egypt throughout the history."

It states that Muhammad Ali Dynasty of Egypt and Sudan is a *Kurd* not "turk". He is originally from Dyarbakir and not albanian. 

Basically, Muhammad Ali Dynasty of Egypt and Sudan is the founder of modern Egypt and its ruler between 1805 to 1848. 

"At the age of thirty was Muhammad Ali in the armies mobilized by the Porte in the Ottoman Empire to attack the French army led by Napoleon Bonaparte occupied Egypt between the year 1798 - 1801, before moving Muhammad Ali to Egypt entirely a facilitator Prime battalion "as saying that" with the army that came to evacuate the French from Egypt, and after the departure of the French ascended Muhammad Ali as "Bkbai" that he was appointed ruler of Egypt in 1805 and then established the military school in Egypt, and the numbers a strong army, as established Dar military industry, *having relied on the commanders and soldiers of the Kurds in installing his due sincerity Kurd who was one of them because the roots of the "Diyarbakir" because of the military skills enjoyed by the Kurds during the wars they have fought against the French and the English."*


This is the book.
1023_1.jpg


Allot of famous Kurdish personalities have been "sucked up" by Arabs, Turks and Persians because of the lack of interest or because they have lived among them.

----------


## Sile

> Explained here.
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post417859
> 
> and here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post423166
> 
> 
> see here, on the right corner under Iranian languages. 
> 
> 
> ...


The budini of herodous would not be the same badini .............i am unsure.........migrations are strange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

- so medes would encompass, parthian, bactrians and turkmenistans, yes or no?

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## Alan

> The budini of herodous would not be the same badini .............i am unsure.........migrations are strange
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini
> 
> - so medes would encompass, parthian, bactrians and turkmenistans, yes or no?



I thought about this too long time ago and it makes sense if you read the two posts I made. the Medes were more of confederation of several (mostly Iranic) tribes. Similar to how the structure among Kurds was in the past (and still there are signs of this). The Badini Kurds in iraqi Kurdistan might have been the Budinis of Heredotus which had became part of the Medic confederation.

And as such they became mostly Kurds and as Kurds they moved into modern Baluchistan and became Baluch too.

Medes were not Parthians but Parthians were Medes who had additional Scythian admixture. In other words Parthians were the successors of the Medes and the Kurds are the successors of the Parthians.

If you look at the links I provided there are all the sources for that.


Surena the famous Parthian General who had beaten Crassus. Here is a description of him. 




> Plutarch also described him as "the tallest and finest looking man himself, but the delicacy of his looks and effeminacy of his dress did not promise so much manhood as he really was master of; or his face was painted, *and his hair parted after the fashion of the Medes*."[6]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surena

Parthians were Medes. Bactrians were something different.

----------


## Alan

Sile read this here and you will likely understand what I mean.

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Parthian.html



> *A Roman description of the Parthians or later Persians from Justin's History of the World*
> 
> II. The government of the nation, after their revolt from the Macedonian power, was in the hands of kings. Next to the royal authority is the order of the people,[3] from which they take generals in war and magistrates in peace. *Their language is something between those of the Scythians and Medes, being a compound of both. Their dress was formerly of a fashion peculiar to themselves; afterwards, when their power had increased, it was like that of the Medes, light and full flowing. The fashion of their arms is that of their own country and of Scythia.[4]* They have an army, not like other nations, of free men, but chiefly consisting of slaves, the members of whom daily increase, the power of manumission being allowed to none, and all their offspring, in consequence, being born slaves. These bondmen they bring up as carefully as their own children, and teach them, with great pains, the arts of riding and shooting with the bow. As any one is eminent in wealth, so he furnishes the king with a proportionate number of horsemen for war. Indeed when fifty thousand cavalry encountered Antony, as he was making war upon Parthia, only four hundred of them were free men.



An people in Northeast Iran known as Parni started the uprising against the Seleucids. These Parni were Scythian and they were the once forming the first phase of the new Empire. However the majority of the people compromising in this new Empire were actually Medes and it didn't took too long that the Medic language and culture dominated. And so the Parthians formed. 
The Parni, a Scythian tribe started all this, but the people known in historic books as "Parthians" who fought against the Romans were basically Medes for most and spoke some kind of Medic dialect.

Parthians = Medes with additional Scythian admixture (early Elite).

----------


## Aberdeen

IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.

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## Alan

> IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.


Their language never "changed" in the way I believe you mean it. They always stayed as Northwest Iranian language and no they didn't absorbed Kurds because back than Kurds with this ethnic designation didn't existed. throughout history ethnic designation of people changed. Assyrians, Babylonians were known in the past as Akkadians but that doesn't mean that Akkadians were or mixed with Assyrians or Babylonians. The majority of what was the Median confederation lies in nowday Kurdistan and was absorbed by them. 

The Kurdish language by scientific researches is very likely a direct descend of Median. The Iranian languages are split into 3 or sometimes 4 subgroups. Northwest Iranian, Southwest Iranian, Northeast Iranian and Southeast Iranian.

The first and very likely origin of all modern Northwest Iranian dialects is Medic. Kurdish is the most prominent and largest group of the Northwest Iranian group. You need to understand the time frame. linguists divide the Iranian linguistic development into three state or phases. 

Old Iranic time period to which Avesta, Medic and Old Persian belong, Middle Iranic period also known as Pahlavani period to which Parthian (the successor of Medic) and Middle Persian (successor of Old Persian) belong, and the new Iranian languages phase (our modern Iranian languages) to which modern Kurdish as most prominent belong (as successors of Medic-> Parthian) and Farsi or modern Persian as the most prominent (successor of Old Persian-> Middle Persian) belong. Note I only took Northwest and Southwest Iranian languages as example. But the same shifts happened in Northeast and Southeast Iranian languages too.

please look at this graphic for further understanding. 3 of the four successor dialects of Median are languages only spoken by modern Kurds the fourth Baluchi is also believe to have been descend of Kurds but moved into modern Baluchistan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ropeanTree.svg

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## Sile

> Their language never "changed" in the way I believe you mean it. They always stayed as Northwest Iranian language and no they didn't absorbed Kurds because back than Kurds with this ethnic designation didn't existed. throughout history ethnic designation of people changed. Assyrians, Babylonians were known in the past as Akkadians but that doesn't mean that Akkadians were or mixed with Assyrians or Babylonians. The majority of what was the Median confederation lies in nowday Kurdistan and was absorbed by them. 
> 
> The Kurdish language by scientific researches is very likely a direct descend of Median. The Iranian languages are split into 3 or sometimes 4 subgroups. Northwest Iranian, Southwest Iranian, Northeast Iranian and Southeast Iranian.
> 
> The first and very likely origin of all modern Northwest Iranian dialects is Medic. Kurdish is the most prominent and largest group of the Northwest Iranian group. You need to understand the time frame. linguists divide the Iranian linguistic development into three state or phases. 
> 
> Old Iranic time period to which Avesta, Medic and Old Persian belong, Middle Iranic period also known as Pahlavani period to which Parthian (the successor of Medic) and Middle Persian (successor of Old Persian) belong, and the new Iranian languages phase (our modern Iranian languages) to which modern Kurdish as most prominent belong (as successors of Medic-> Parthian) and Farsi or modern Persian as the most prominent (successor of Old Persian-> Middle Persian) belong. Note I only took Northwest and Southwest Iranian languages as example. But the same shifts happened in Northeast and Southeast Iranian languages too.
> 
> please look at this graphic for further understanding. 3 of the four successor dialects of Median are languages only spoken by modern Kurds the fourth Baluchi is also believe to have been descend of Kurds but moved into modern Baluchistan.
> ...


So basically, Medes are caucaso-persian ( west-asian ) admixture and have zero balochi mixture

since balochi resides of the border of iran, pakistan and india along the coast, i see no median history there

----------


## Goga

> IMO, it's really important to specify what time frame you're talking about when discussing the genetics, language or culture of certain groups, and that's particularly true of the Medes. The original Medes of 3500 years ago were nomadic Indo-Iranians, but they fell under the control of the Assyrian empire a few centuries later. By the time the Medes helped destroy the Assyrian empire in order to create their own kingdom, they had become a racially mixed group, and in particular seem to have absorbed a lot of Kurdish blood. So, when I identified the Medes as Indo-Iranian in an earlier post, I was referring to the Medes when they first moved into Iran. Yes, their ethnic makeup and language changed later, but that often happens with different groups of people.


Kurdish Zagros Mountains which were the homeland of the Medes were never under the control of Assyria or other people. Nobody can conrol the Zagros Mountains, it have been always belonged to the natives, then the Medes, today the Kurds.

Also everybody is mixed. The Medes were mixed and the Kurds are mixed. But so are people in Europe. Europeans of today are not the same as Europeans of 2000 years ago. Actually native Europeans of today are not even te same as only 500 years ago.

Modern German nation is not the same as Suebi of 2000 years ago. Modern Greeks are not the same as ancient Greeks, modern Italian nation is not the same as ancient Romans.


But the fact is that the Medes are the true DIRECT ancestors of the Kurd: their folklore, tradition, religion, language, music, culture, social life was passed down to the Kurds..

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## Alan

> So basically, Medes are caucaso-persian ( west-asian ) admixture and have zero balochi mixture
> 
> since balochi resides of the border of iran, pakistan and india along the coast, i see no median history there



I already explained above how that happened. Balochis oririginated somwhere between West Iran and Syria. According to their own records they came from Kurdish tribes from Syria. A good chunk of Balochis might be natives of this region but the people who brought the Balochi language there came from further West from Kurdish territory. Since their language is very untypical for the geographical region they live in. They are Northwest Iranian language speakers surrounded by Persian speakers to the West, Pashto speakers to the North and Punjabi, Sindhi speakers to the East.

Balochi component is part of the larger West Asian component. Caucasian-Persian and Balochi are almost the same. Just modern Balochis have additional ASI (ancestral South Asian) admixture.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Kurdish Zagros Mountains which were the homeland of the Medes were never under the control of Assyria or other people. Nobody can conrol the Zagros Mountains, it have been always belonged to the natives, then the Medes, today the Kurds.
> 
> Also everybody is mixed. The Medes were mixed and the Kurds are mixed. But so are people in Europe. Europeans of today are not the same as Europeans of 2000 years ago. Actually native Europeans of today are not even te same as only 500 years ago.
> 
> Modern German nation is not the same as Suebi of 2000 years ago. Modern Greeks are not the same as ancient Greeks, modern Italian nation is not the same as ancient Romans.
> 
> 
> But the fact is that the Medes are the true DIRECT ancestors of the Kurd: their folklore, tradition, religion, language, music, culture, social life was passed down to the Kurds..


I can understand now why you want to jumble together different time periods to make soup. It allows for the creation of a fantasy version of the past, where Medes were the indigenous inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains, and are no doubt descended from paleolithic mountain goats.

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## Goga

> I can understand now why you want to jumble together different time periods to make soup. It allows for the creation of a fantasy version of the past, where Medes were the indigenous inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains, and are no doubt descended from paleolithic mountain goats.


Huh? The Medes were most probably mostly J2 (J-M172) folks. And as far as I know Y-DNA haplogroup J2* is not the same as haplgroup R1*, since J2* is the TRUE native Zagros Mountains Y-DNA haplogroup, but then again, that's a different story!

You started to talk about the Medes, not me, remember? And R1* has absolutely nothing to do with the Medes, nor Kurds, lol. It predates the Medes by at least 15,000 year!


Speaking about paranoia, why is this so diffcult to accept and REALISE that there is no agenda or whatever behind this thread at all. Why are people interested in haplogroups at the first place?


And surely I'm a descended of a paleothic Zagros mountain goat, mmmehhhh. Do you have anything against the paleothic Zagros mountain goats, I want to know toward which direction I should point my blade sharp horns.

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## Alan

> Huh? The Medes were most probably mostly J2 (J-M172) folks. And as far as I know Y-DNA haplogroup J2* is not the same as haplgroup R1*, since J2* is the TRUE native Zagros Mountains Y-DNA haplogroup, but then again, that's a different story!


Where do you know that? Again heval Goga please don't make any claims without evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that Medes were mosty J2. No one knows that exactly.

----------


## Goga

> Where do you know that? Again heval Goga please don't make any claims without evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that Medes were mosty J2. No one knows that exactly.


J2* (J-M172) is native to Zagros Mountains, the Medes were native to Zagros Mountains, the Kurds are native to Zagros Mountains, the important Y-DNA in modern Kurds is still J-M172 = problem solved: the major Y-DNA haplogroup in the Medes was J-M172!

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## Sile

> I already explained above how that happened. Balochis oririginated somwhere between West Iran and Syria. According to their own records they came from Kurdish tribes from Syria. A good chunk of Balochis might be natives of this region but the people who brought the Balochi language there came from further West from Kurdish territory. Since their language is very untypical for the geographical region they live in. They are Northwest Iranian language speakers surrounded by Persian speakers to the West, Pashto speakers to the North and Punjabi, Sindhi speakers to the East.
> 
> Balochi component is part of the larger West Asian component. Caucasian-Persian and Balochi are almost the same. Just modern Balochis have additional ASI (ancestral South Asian) admixture.


never heard of balochi in syrian area .....balochi in admixture represents the area i noted

----------


## Alan

> never heard of balochi in syrian area .....balochi in admixture represents the area i noted


I think you are confusing the Balochi people with the component which was name after them. The Balochis nowadays live in Southeastern Iran, but a large part of their ancestry and their linguistic forefather came from further West.




> Baloch have Medes Origin first settlement was in Aleppo /Halab from where they Migrated to Iraq where they remained until, siding the sons of Ali and taking part in the Battle of Karbala, they were expelled by Yazid, the second of the Umayyad Caliphs, in 680 AD.
> 
> They are an Iranian people and mainly speak Balochi language which itself is a branch of the Iranian languages, and more specifically of the Northwestern Iranian languages


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch...lochi_language

It's so simple.

----------


## Ahadad

Hi Goga, my GENO 2.0 TEST me a R-PF6215. In FTDNA R-L145 that i know is too old subclade and are found in Middle East, that i know Have cases in eastern Turkey, Iraq, Bahrein, Oman and Qatar. My family from Lebanon and Iraq, i think our Y-Haplogroup is from region around North Iraq, North Syria, Northwest Iran or maybe close caucasus. But our haplotype defintly not European.

This is my Markers-13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

----------


## Alan

> Hi Goga, my GENO 2.0 TEST me a R-PF6215. In FTDNA R-L145 that i know is too old subclade and are found in Middle East, that i know Have cases in eastern Turkey, Iraq, Bahrein, Oman and Qatar. My family from Lebanon and Iraq, i think our Y-Haplogroup is from region around North Iraq, North Syria, Northwest Iran or maybe close caucasus. But our haplotype defintly not European.
> 
> This is my Markers-13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11



It seems that you are a similar case to Goga. Both of you are m17 negative.

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## Ahadad

> It seems that you are a similar case to Goga. Both of you are m17 negative.


Yes, I think we have same origin. I'm Lebanese/Iraqi Christian origin, for this i think our subclade are from this region because that i know have other cases. I think it's middle east subclade of R1. Probabily this haplotype are from southturkey, north Syria (I heard cases from Aleppo and Homs), North Iraq or Northeast Iran.

See this>>
*R1-M420*R-M420, defined by the mutation M420, has two branches: R-SRY1532.2, defined by the mutation SRY1532.2, which makes up the vast majority; and R-M420*, the paragroup, defined as M420 positive but SRY1532.2 negative. (In the 2002 scheme, this SRY1532.2 negative minority was one part of the relatively rare group classified as the paragroup R1*.) Mutations understood to be equivalent to M420 include M449, M511, M513, L62, and L63.
Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the UAE, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.

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## Alan

> Yes, I think we have same origin. I'm Lebanese/Iraqi Christian origin, for this i think our subclade are from this region because that i know have other cases. I think it's middle east subclade of R1. Probabily this haplotype are from southturkey, north Syria (I heard cases from Aleppo and Homs), North Iraq or Northeast Iran.
> 
> See this>>
> *R1-M420*
> 
> R-M420, defined by the mutation M420, has two branches: R-SRY1532.2, defined by the mutation SRY1532.2, which makes up the vast majority; and R-M420*, the paragroup, defined as M420 positive but SRY1532.2 negative. (In the 2002 scheme, this SRY1532.2 negative minority was one part of the relatively rare group classified as the paragroup R1*.) Mutations understood to be equivalent to M420 include M449, M511, M513, L62, and L63.
> Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the UAE, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.


The highest diversity of R1a is between Southeastern/eastern Turkey and Iran. So yes your paternal origin might be from that region. You could even be a Christian Kurd since R1a is relatively rare among Iraqi Christians aka, Assyrians.

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## Ahadad

Maybe yes, but have the Arab tribe Al-shammar that are tested positive 43% of R1a, but i dont know the subclade. Maybe also rab from gulf close to Iran, kuwait and qatar.

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## Alan

> Maybe yes, but have the Arab tribe Al-shammar that are tested positive 43% of R1a, but i dont know the subclade. Maybe also �rab from gulf close to Iran, kuwait and qatar.



Al Shammari are likely bottle necked and I assume they are m17 positive. You are m17 negative. Arabs from the Gulf area (especially Kuwait) are for most part a mix of Iranians/Mesopotamians and Saudis.

This is why I came to the conclusion above :)

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## Ahadad

Yes maybe you are correct, my paternal family from Mosul (North Iraq) and that i see Goga are Kurd Yazidi (Majority from Iraq also). I think this Haplotype are from North Syria, North Iraq and Southern Turkey.

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## Ahadad

Goga did you see my comments??

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## Goga

> Goga did you see my comments??


Oh, now I see it. There're periods that I'm not very active on this site. So I missed your comments, although I'm not forced to answer your comments. 
But it's very cool to see another R1a* from the Middle East. But still I don't know exactly to what type I do belong. It has been proven that the original R1a* is born in West Asia and later migrated into Central Asia and the EurAsian Steppes Region. So our Y-DNA has West Asian roots. And yeah you're right, I'm Ezdi Kurd. Most of my ancestors are from Bakur (Northern Kurdistan / Southeast Turkey). My both lineages (mtDNA + Y-DNA) are native to Kurdistan. My paternal tribe is from an area between Rojava (Western Kurdistan / Northern Syria) and Bashur (Southern Kurdistan / Northern Iraq). But I heard many times that my paternal tribe to which I do belong is actually from Rojhelat (Eastern Kurdistan / West Iran). Also I do believe that our R1a* is from the proto-Iranic speaking Mitanni/Kassites who were ancestors of the Medes (proto-Kurds). Mitanni/Kassites and the Medes were very busy and active in the Northern Mesopotamia. So our R1a* is very old and native to West Asia, to the Mountains, to the 'Umman Manda' folks. So to conclude my story, your ancesotrs can be Mitanni/Kassites, the Medes or even the modern day Kurds.

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## Alpakut

> The Badini Kurds in iraqi Kurdistan might have been the Budinis of Heredotus which had became part of the Medic confederation.


According to Wikipedia article _The 1911 Britannica surmises that the Budini were Fenno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis.[5]Edgar V. Saks identifies Budini as the Finnic Votic people.[6]
_
They could have been indeed Finno-Ugric considering the red hair frequency in the Urals (Budinis were also recorded having red hair)


But on the other side Budin in Turkic could also mean "people, masses" _budun_, it is a supra-ethnic social term.

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## Alpakut

> That the Budini, who lived to the north-west of the country of the Scoloti, were Scythians, we collect from the fact that they spoke the Scythian language, which appears clearly to result from two passages of the fourth book of Herodotus. The Budini are in all probability the Bodeni of Ptolemy,


https://books.google.ru/books?id=qL86AAAAcAAJ
Budinians were undoubtly a Scythian nation.




> _The Budinoi are connected by many scientists with the ancestors of the Mordvins, and this assumption has some justification, but as it turned out, deciphering of the names of Budinoi by means of Old English confirms our assumption. Βουδινοι, perhaps even "Wudinoi", according to Herodotus, were the inhabitants of the forest country. In this case, OE widu, wudu "wood, forest", Eng wooden by the meaning and phonetically are suitable perfect. The word wuden was not found in the Old English but it could exist and mean "forest" on the laws of English grammar.
> Herodotus located the city of Gelon in Budinoi country. Scientists did not come to consensus about its real place. B.Shramko long argued that the sity has to be connected with Bilsk hillfort on the Vorskla River (SHRAMKO B.P. 1987), but V. Il'inski refuted this hypothesis. (IL'INSKAYA V.A. 1977: 91-92)._


http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Herodot.html
Interestingly _wudun_ in Chuvash means "wood, forest". In othere Turkic languages it the word appears as "odun, udun".

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## Alpakut

I found an interesting map showing Bulgar and Kurd Scythians (http://alterling2.narod.ru/English/AlanScyth.html)

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## Alan

> According to Wikipedia article _The 1911 Britannica surmises that the Budini were Fenno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis.[5]Edgar V. Saks identifies Budini as the Finnic Votic people.[6]
> _
> They could have been indeed Finno-Ugric considering the red hair frequency in the Urals (Budinis were also recorded having red hair)
> 
> 
> But on the other side Budin in Turkic could also mean "people, masses" _budun_, it is a supra-ethnic social term.


After researching more about it, Budini were most likely Iranic. Herodotus mentions them among the five founder tribes of the Medes as the "Budii" and even says they are probably equivalent to the Scythian Budini. 

Budi is equivalent to the Kurdish Buti/Boti tribe in Southeastern Anatolia, known as Botan (in older texts as Butan a u=> o loudshift happened here). The Badini are tribal cousins of the Buti nearby and are believed to be the same people.




> Thus Deioces collected the Medes into a nation, and ruled over them alone. Now these are the tribes of which they consist: the _Busae_, the _Paretaceni_, the _Struchates_, the _Arizanti_, the _Budii_, and the _Magi_.


Herodotus calls the Busae, Paretaceni and the Budii, "Tribes also found among the Scythians". Struchates "of non Aryan origin " (probably Manneaens), Arizantes another Aryan tribe and the Magi the priest cast of the Medes. That the Budini were Finno_Ugric is just a hypothesis by modern scientist, because they were also partly reindeer herders. But there is small doubt for me that the Budini were an Iranic tribe since they are relatively wide spred and even existed among the early Medes. Also Herodotus calls them clearly a Scythian speaking tribe. They might have been the Scythian group from the most northern territory of Scythia and with the strongest contact to Finno_Ugric speakers.

Udmurts and Komi are close genetic cousins to Indo_Iranians therefore "red haired" isn't a real evidence imo, because red hair is also a common trait among Indo Europeans beside Finno-Ugrics from the Urals. While Finno-Ugrics in North Europe are not that red haired.

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## Alpakut

> That the Budini were Finno_Ugric is just a hypothesis by modern scientist, because they were also partly reindeer herders. But there is small doubt for me that the Budini were an Iranic tribe since they are relatively wide spred and even existed among the early Medes. Also Herodotus calls them clearly a Scythian speaking tribe. They might have been the Scythian group from the most northern territory of Scythia and with the strongest contact to Finno_Ugric speakers.
> 
> Udmurts and Komi are close genetic cousins to Indo_Iranians therefore "red haired" isn't a real evidence imo, because red hair is also a common trait among Indo Europeans beside Finno-Ugrics from the Urals. While Finno-Ugrics in North Europe are not that red haired.


Scythian yes, but who gives you the guarantee they all have spoken Iranic? Red hair is mostly common among non-IE Ugrics and non-IE Natives of north-eastern Britain.

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