# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Paleolithic & Mesolithic >  how, where and when were CHG and steppe ancestry born?

## bicicleur

haplogroup IJ split into I and J 43 ka in Transcaucasia and carried the common west eurasian ancestry in the Laziridis Dzudzuana paper, ancestral to WHG
ca 30 ka haplo J carrying common west eurasian ancestry admixed with Basal Eurasian newcomers into Transcaucasia, creating the Dzudzuana ancestry

haplogroup QR carried ANE in LGM Siberia
R1b1a-L754 entered Europe from the east with ANE somewhere between 20 and 17 ka
it mixed with WHG creating EHG
it split at TRMCA 17,1 ka
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L754/
its subclade R1b-L388 split further into P297 and V1636 15,6 ka

P297 went north into the Volga-forest zone, it carried EHG like the 6,5 ka Samara HG

R1b-V1636 went south to Ciskaukasia, where it mixed with haplo J
haplo J Dzudzuana + V1636 ANE = CHG (see Laziridis Dzudzuana paper)
while V1636 remained on a cline between EHG and CHG = steppe ancestry (see progress samples in Wang Caucasus paper)
this happened between 15,6 ka, the P297-V1636 split and 13,3 ka, the date of the haplo J Satsurblia CHG sample

ca 8,2 ka R1b-V1636 and a few J moved north from the Caucasus area to become fisher-hunters in the lower Volga area
ca 6,5 ka they mixed with hunters from the middle Volga to form the Khvalynsk
that is how steppe ancestry spread north
they must have spoken PIE
bot how did this PIE get south into Transcaucasia?

----------


## MOESAN

Your questioning is interesting but I have no clue about concerned regions and times to put things forwards.

----------


## Ack

Part of the theory you presented is correct, but the eneolitic yamnaya had an additional mixture of CHG. Just compare 'RUS_Karelia_HG' to 'RUS_Progress_En'. The Caucasian mixture in the steppes was not just a Paleolithic product


Attachment 11843

----------


## Tamakore

> haplogroup QR carried ANE in LGM Siberia
> R1b1a-L754 entered Europe from the east with ANE somewhere between 20 and 17 ka
> it mixed with WHG creating EHG


Has anyone else noticed the correspondence between ANE and Greenberg's proposed language macro-families Eurasiatic and Amerind? Greenberg's proposals are still hotly disputed, but Greenberg regarded Eurasiatic as the closest relative of Amerind.

Mal'ta boy was Y haplogroup R*. My tentative and speculative hypothesis is that Mal'ta boy spoke proto-Eurasiatic, whilst his ANE cousins further east in haplogroup Q spoke pre-proto-Amerind. The remarkable expansion of ANE admixture between 20 and 10 ka, both east and west, was likely accompanied by an expansion of ANE languages. In the west these may have included proto-Uralic and, west of the Urals, PIE.

----------


## ThirdTerm

Raghavan et al. (2014) found that 14%-38% of Native American ancestry originated through MA-1 (R1*). Currently, hg R1 is the second most predominant haplogroup among Native Americans (38%-78%) after hg Q. If R1 among Native Americans is mostly originated from English colonists, there must have been a Yamnaya-like migration event, by which Native Americans' Y-DNA lineages were almost entirely replaced by R1 through conquest. Their mtDNA lineages A,B,C,D, and X largely remained intact because it was a male-dominated conquest. In continental Europe, Yamnaya pastoralists almost entirely replaced the previously wide-spread G2a haplogroup with R1a and R1b haplogroups.

----------


## bicicleur

> Raghavan et al. (2014) found that 14%-38% of Native American ancestry originated through MA-1 (R1*). Currently, hg R1 is the second most predominant haplogroup among Native Americans (38%-78%) after hg Q. If R1 among Native Americans is mostly originated from English colonists, there must have been a Yamnaya-like migration event, by which Native Americans' Y-DNA lineages were almost entirely replaced by R1 through conquest. Their mtDNA lineages A,B,C,D, and X largely remained intact because it was a male-dominated conquest. In continental Europe, Yamnaya pastoralists almost entirely replaced the previously wide-spread G2a haplogroup with R1a and R1b haplogroups.


there is no pre-columbian R1 Y-DNA in America
a lot of R1b was introduced among Native North-Americans after the Ojibwe tribe acquired fire-arms from French trappers
appearantly the Ojibwe did not only get fire-arms from them, they also inseminated their women
and the Ojibwe, with their fire-arms inseminated other tribes further west inland

----------


## Anfänger

> there is no pre-columbian R1 Y-DNA in America
> a lot of R1b was introduced among Native North-Americans after the Ojibwe tribe acquired fire-arms from French trappers
> appearantly the Ojibwe did not only get fire-arms from them, they also inseminated their women
> and the Ojibwe, with their fire-arms inseminated other tribes further west inland


Are the R1b clades of native americans under L-23 ?

----------


## bicicleur

> Are the R1b clades of native americans under L-23 ?


as far as I can remember, they were M269 and not tested for further subclades

----------


## Tamakore

> there is no pre-columbian R1 Y-DNA in America


Leif Erikson and the other Vinland settlers in 1000AD probably included R1a, and perhaps some R1b, but I don't think there is any evidence that they interbred with the local (Skraeling) women during their stay.

----------

