# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  How and when did the T haplogroup M70 reach Northern Somalia?

## thoth

The Y DNA haplogroup M70 is the most elusive and intriguing. Does anyone know how it reach the Norther Somali coastline and around when? I've read somehwhere it has something to do with Phoenician or (even earlier) sumerian sea-farers.  :Thinking:

----------


## zanipolo

> The Y DNA haplogroup M70 is the most elusive and intriguing. Does anyone know how it reach the Norther Somali coastline and around when? I've read somehwhere it has something to do with Phoenician or (even earlier) sumerian sea-farers.


Its the "back to africa theory"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinborland/6243496848/

so from persia , it spead everywhere with some going to Africa.

It also followed G and L into the alps as per my project manager

----------


## zanipolo

New branch as of 12th October 2012 is 

T1a3

This will not appear on Nat Geno 2.0

----------


## zanipolo

T has been renamed from M70 to M184 ......M70 is a subbranch of M184
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...84_%28Y-DNA%29

I always thought I was a special case T in the alps, but
from link
This phylogenetic tree of haplogroup subclades is based on the 2012 ISOGG Tree.

*T* (M184/PAGES34/USP9Y+3178, M272, PAGES129, L810, L455, L452, L445) Found in Armenia and Northwest Europe.
*T1* (M193, L206, L490) Found in Syria.
*T1a* (M70/PAGES46, PAGES78) Found in Iran.
*T1a1* (L162/PAGES21, L299) Found in northern Anatolia
*T1a1a* (L208/PAGES2) Mostly found in western Europe, eastern Anatolia, Iran, Arabian Peninusla, Upper Egypt and Horn of Africa. Some spots in western Morocco, Sahrawis and Canarias.
*T1a1a1* (P77) Mostly found in Middle East, western Europe and Ashkenazi jews.*T1a1a2* (P321) Found in Syria and Ashkenazi jews.
*T1a1a2a* (P317) Found in Syria and Italian jews.

*T1a2* (L131) Mostly found in northern Europe, eastern Europe, southeastern Europe and Anatolia. Also found in Xinjiang, Lemba, Tunisia, south and east Iberian Peninsula.
*T1a2a* (P322, P328) Found in Scandinavia, Denmark, Germany and Netherlands. Some spots in Yemenite jews and Palestine(P327).*T1a2b* (L446) Found in Northwest Europe and eastern Alps.*T1a3* (L1255) Found in Kuwait.




I am just average .........I have 90% of my markers in the noted "red" line

Oh well......my mother says I am still special !!

----------


## zanipolo

Rumour is that since this new shorthand ( for Y-dna ) format will start to take effect this year, the proposal is to merge L and T into the L marker and use the T for the R1b.
R1a will remain as the only R

Unsure why they cannot use another letter...maybe there all used up

The Russians are annoyed at the proposal giving lots of data on why L and T are different to each other. They have piles of data sonce 2008 on these markers. so they are against this proposal.

As for me, well I am not savvy on if I should be worried.

----------


## nordicwarrior

Very interesting Zanipolo, I had not heard that before. I thought old haplogroup T was now being called haplogroup K? By the way, it's no shocker that R1b is being "promoted" up to T. I always wondered why Spencer Wells didn't just go ahead and put R1b in the "Z" slot. He'll find a way to get his own group up there somehow.

----------


## nordicwarrior

Also, I've always thought it bizarre that R1b and R1a didn't each have their own letter in the alphabet. These are enormous groups after all, especially R1b. Were political considerations involved in the naming decisions?

----------


## RobertColumbia

> Also, I've always thought it bizarre that R1b and R1a didn't each have their own letter in the alphabet. These are enormous groups after all, especially R1b. Were political considerations involved in the naming decisions?


It is interesting. I think there are political considerations in every sort of taxonomy system. It's like the racial classification systems that are used in various countries for "diversity" calculations. In some areas of the UK, Irish ancestry is considered a kind of minority status. In the US, it is not, largely because the Irish-American population has largely assimilated in the same way that the German-American community has, and also because there isn't a well-bankrolled Irish-American lobby trying to get minority status and quotas for itself.

----------


## Sile

Checking the T1a in Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania and Madagascar I found a 10 year old paper that matches these markers for T1a and O2a in east Africa............I guess they came via east and south India

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...an_Populations

----------


## Alpenjager

> Checking the T1a in Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania and Madagascar I found a 10 year old paper that matches these markers for T1a and O2a in east Africa............I guess they came via east and south India



According to Neetu Negi et al 2015, Haplogroup T1a-M70 in India has been considered to be of West Eurasian origin.

----------


## Sile

> According to Neetu Negi et al 2015, Haplogroup T1a-M70 in India has been considered to be of West Eurasian origin.


i agree...............but I think now that T and L split in the south caucasus and both backtracked via bactria and gedrosia to india ( L more than T )

There is a lot of T and L in eastern Anatolia

----------


## Alpenjager

Now, at least part of the mystery have been unlocked: Dirs and Garhajis belongs, as I predicted several month ago, to T1a1a2b son branch of Y16897 and reached Horn of Africa from the Arabian Peninsula through the Gulf of Aden.

DYS425=14

I have added them to the tree:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

----------


## Sile

> Now, at least part of the mystery have been unlocked: Dirs and Garhajis belongs, as I predicted several month ago, to T1a1a2b son branch of Y16897 and reached Horn of Africa from the Arabian Peninsula through the Gulf of Aden.
> DYS425=14
> I have added them to the tree:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png


thanks
in regards to the Lemba, on your tree , they are said to have come from North-levant to Yemen to tanzania without any wifes or children
*According to their oral tradition, the Lemba are descended from seven Jewish men who left Israel 2,500 years ago and married African women, according to the BBC. The Lemba prefer their children to marry other Lembas, and marriage to non-Lembas is being discouraged.
Their sacred prayer language is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic. Their religious artifact is a replica of the Biblical Ark of the Covenant known as the ‘ngoma lungundu’, meaning "the drum that thunders.” The object went on display recently at a museum in Harare, Zimbabwe, and has instilled pride in many of the Lemba.* 
2500 years ago = 500BC 
Do you have their group T1a2?????
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrw_Ar0lKag

----------


## Alpenjager

Yes, Lembas are added under T1a2b2

----------


## Fatherland

> The Y DNA haplogroup M70 is the most elusive and intriguing. Does anyone know how it reach the Norther Somali coastline and around when? I've read somehwhere it has something to do with Phoenician or (even earlier) sumerian sea-farers.


It originated in Somalia.

----------


## Sile

> Yes, Lembas are added under T1a2b2


It is puzzling that the Dirs of Somalia ( T1a3 ) have nothing in common with Yemeni
The T in yemeni appear to be only of israeli people
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.WaXVbtFLdPY
and the lemba also from these
IIRC the lemba seem to be from Yazd ( persia ) in origin ............Yazd , I do not mean yazidi even though yazidi and zorastrian have a "fire" god

----------


## Fatherland

> It is puzzling that the Dirs of Somalia ( T1a3 ) have nothing in common with Yemeni
> The T in yemeni appear to be only of israeli people
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.WaXVbtFLdPY
> and the lemba also from these
> IIRC the lemba seem to be from Yazd ( persia ) in origin ............Yazd , I do not mean yazidi even though yazidi and zorastrian have a "fire" god


It spread downstreams from Somalia to Yemenis and Indians, all the clades show it.

There is nothing to discuss.

----------


## Salento

About the T tree, isogg names the subclades differently, for example:
T1a2b L446
T1a2b1 CTS933
T1a2b1a1 CTS8489
T1a2b1a1a Y17493
https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

----------


## Sile

> Just wondering! isogg names the subclades differently, for example:
> T1a2b L446
> T1a2b1 CTS933
> T1a2b1a1 CTS8489
> T1a2b1a1a Y17493
> https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html


here is Yfull 5.05V with age of marker ..............on the right I noted any changes of terminology between the 2

----------


## Alpenjager

NO. You are misunderstanding the data. Somalia is not the origin but where migrated 1 unique known T1a1a2 branch

----------


## Alpenjager

Isogg is not updated being respectful nor rigorous with when the branches are discovered, In my work I give strict priority to the First discovered branches.

----------


## Salento

Thank you ---

----------


## Abdirahman

> Now, at least part of the mystery have been unlocked: Dirs and Garhajis belongs, as I predicted several month ago, to T1a1a2b son branch of Y16897 and reached Horn of Africa from the Arabian Peninsula through the Gulf of Aden.
> 
> DYS425=14
> 
> I have added them to the tree:



Garhajis are now removed from the tree , does that mean there was an error in previous finding?

----------

