# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  High conentrations of haplogroup T in parts of the Caucasus ?

## Kardu

Where does a high concentration of T in the North-West Caucasus and Northern Georgia come from?

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## zanipolo

> Where does a high concentration of T in the North-West Caucasus and Northern Georgia come from?


they come from north ossetians, ancient siraces tribe, dagestan and terek river valley .

south ossetians and northern ossetians are different in haplotypes

you will find most of northern europe ( for T ) to have come via this area, ....along the danube river or up the russian rivers to the baltic, along the baltic and as stated by david Faux as far as the faroe islands

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## Kardu

> they come from north ossetians, ancient siraces tribe, dagestan and terek river valley .
> 
> south ossetians and northern ossetians are different in haplotypes
> 
> you will find most of northern europe ( for T ) to have come via this area, ....along the danube river or up the russian rivers to the baltic, along the baltic and as stated by david Faux as far as the faroe islands


Based on which data? There is no single T in Ossetian DNA project... Dagestan is North-East Caucasus. The map shows North-West. And I haven't heard about T among Georgians, although it is present among Armenians, but it's way to the south.

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## zanipolo

> Based on which data? There is no single T in Ossetian DNA project... Dagestan is North-East Caucasus. The map shows North-West. And I haven't heard about T among Georgians, although it is present among Armenians, but it's way to the south.


read

Oleg Balanovsky _et al._, "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region," _Molecular Biology and Evolution_ 2011

Lezgian (Northeast Caucasian)
Abkhaz (Northwest Caucasian)
Digorian (Scythian) - North Ossetia
Georgia (Bolnisi, Akhalkalaki and Akhaltsikhe)
russian lands on the black sea
nogays
dagestans

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011...yev-et-al.html

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## Kardu

From that study: https://lh3.ggpht.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/T...sus-ychrom.png

0 T among Georgians

1 Cherkesian

2 Kabardin

1 Abkhazian

Does this qualify for a hotspot??

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## zanipolo

> From that study: https://lh3.ggpht.com/-3F6BqRJ6xl0/T...sus-ychrom.png
> 
> 0 T among Georgians
> 
> 1 Cherkesian
> 
> 2 Kabardin
> 
> 1 Abkhazian
> ...



The map has % from 0 to a max of 7 ............ what is the issue? 
Besides , check Russian site as they cover it better from the north Caucasus and north of that

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## Kardu

> The map has % from 0 to a max of 7 ............ what is the issue? 
> Besides , check Russian site as they cover it better from the north Caucasus and north of that


Issue was that I don't know any source saying that T is 7% or more in Georgia.
Which Russian site?

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## Maciamo

I had not yet incorporated the Yunusbayev 2011 data for the Caucasus. I will do it now.

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## zanipolo

> Issue was that I don't know any source saying that T is 7% or more in Georgia.
> Which Russian site?


I am not saying it was 7% or more, I said the map is maxed out at 7% and so it might confused you when comparing to other maps which might have 40%

here is the armenian ftdna forum and some links, the first "mAP link" is different form wiki and was done by the FTDNA project, the second "map Link" is a split of T1a and T1b ( now known as ( T1a1a and T1a2b )

Haplogroup T, formerly know as K2, has two branches, *T1a & T1b*, and is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and West Africa as can be seen in this  MAP. Its origins and spread are still mysterious but we are slowly getting more clarity as can be seen in this new large and relatively slow-to-load  MAP. The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.

This is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "_I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation._"

A major paper on haplogroup T published in 2011 found a number of new SNP mutations which define a number of new branches (Fernando L. Mendez et al, _"Increased Resolution of Y Chromosome Haplogroup T Defines Relationships among Populations of the Near East, Europe, and Africa_"). The overall structure is unchanged as the main branches remain T1a and T1b. A new link to the sister haplogroup L was discovered. 


As stated, up to 2008 T was known as K2 and before this as part of K*

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## Kardu

But the map shows T in Georgia and the Caucasus mountains, not in Armenia...

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## zanipolo

> But the map shows T in Georgia and the Caucasus mountains, not in Armenia...


Can you clarify what you are seeking!

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## Kardu

> Can you clarify what you are seeking!


What do you mean 'what am I seeking'?? :) :)

Check Maciamo's maps http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y...logroups.shtml

He has removed the hotspot of T from North-Western Georgia, but it still shows almost whole Georgia in 4-7% color...
And I still have to see a single Georgian with YDNA T... There is 0 among commercially tested ones and I can't find a reliable scientific study supporting this claim.

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## zanipolo

> What do you mean 'what am I seeking'?? :) :)
> 
> Check Maciamo's maps http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y...logroups.shtml
> 
> He has removed the hotspot of T from North-Western Georgia, but it still shows almost whole Georgia in 4-7% color...
> And I still have to see a single Georgian with YDNA T... There is 0 among commercially tested ones and I can't find a reliable scientific study supporting this claim.



this is what Maciano might be basing his data

*In each of the examined Armenian populations, we witness moderate levels of haplogroups T-M184, G-M201 and E1b1b1-M35. Interestingly, haplogroup T-M184, which is relatively rare in other Near Eastern populations, as well as in three of the Armenian collections tested here, represents the most prominent descent in Sasun, comprising 20.1% of the samples. The presence of this haplogroup in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, by contrast, is more limited, composing only 3.6%, 6.3% and 3.9%, respectively, of the individuals from those collections. Haplogroup G-M201 (10.9%, 6.3%, 7.8% and 12.5% in Ararat Valley, Gardman, Lake Van and Sasun, respectively), on the other hand, is fairly evenly distributed across the four Armenian populations, with sublineage G2a-P15 comprising the vast majority of these chromosomes. Similarly, the E1b1b1-M35 clade (5.5%, 4.2%, 7.8% and 2.9% in Ararat Valley, Gardman, Lake Van and Sasun, respectively) in the four Armenian populations consists almost entirely of haplogroup E1b1b1c1*-M34. However, a small number of individuals from Lake Van belong to the E1b1b1a*-M78 (0.9%), E1b1b1a2-V13 (1.9%) and E1b1b1a3-V22 (0.9%) branches that have been implicated as signals of Greek influence.40*

M-184 is T hg
ararat valley and gardman and in georgia or on the border with georgia, they have 3.6% and 6.3%

i have not read the article in full, see below
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

But it seems the T in Georgia or next to Georgia s armenian or letzin or azeri people



Below is another
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21558/abstract

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## Kardu

Yes, there is T among Armenians, but so far Georgians have none, zero, nada! :) :)

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## zanipolo

> Yes, there is T among Armenians, but so far Georgians have none, zero, nada! :) :)


well, there have been Armenians in Georgia for 15 centuries, there are also 5 Georgian government seats held by the Armenians. clearly you cannot say zero

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## Kardu

> well, there have been Armenians in Georgia for 15 centuries, there are also 5 Georgian government seats held by the Armenians. clearly you cannot say zero


What kind of reasoning is that? :) When we say genetic results of Georgians/Armenians/Spanish/Swedish etc. we mean ethnic Georgians/Armenians/Spanish/Swedish. We don't mean migrants however in old times they might have entered the territory. 
Are migrants from Africa or Asia taken in account in these maps for European countries ?? Of course not, so why should it be so for Georgia :)

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## zanipolo

> What kind of reasoning is that? :) When we say genetic results of Georgians/Armenians/Spanish/Swedish etc. we mean ethnic Georgians/Armenians/Spanish/Swedish. We don't mean migrants however in old times they might have entered the territory. 
> Are migrants from Africa or Asia taken in account in these maps for European countries ?? Of course not, so why should it be so for Georgia :)



How can you define an ethnic georgian if you exclude armenians living in georgia for 1500 years?

I belong to FTDNA alpgen and if you check the project site and remove the R haplo people, you are left with ancient , J2, T, Q, L, G2a and some E ..........clearly these are very old migrations from bronze age times. With this in mind we cannot gather ethnicity from the Alps. Same with Georgia.....if keeps moved there so long ago, then you must include these as ethnic to georgia.

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## Kardu

> How can you define an ethnic georgian if you exclude armenians living in georgia for 1500 years?
> 
> I belong to FTDNA alpgen and if you check the project site and remove the R haplo people, you are left with ancient , J2, T, Q, L, G2a and some E ..........clearly these are very old migrations from bronze age times. With this in mind we cannot gather ethnicity from the Alps. Same with Georgia.....if keeps moved there so long ago, then you must include these as ethnic to georgia.


99% of current Armenians moved to Georgia in 19th century or later, not 1500 years ago. 
Is it really that strange for you to distinguish one ethnicity from another? You think it's impossible to differentiate between Swedes and Finns in Finland? or Saami from Finnish despite the fact that they live together for times immemorial? 

And between Armenians and Georgians it's very easy. They have their own church, speak their language and have their own surnames. 
Georgia and the Caucasus is very specific place. We remember our ancient roots and ancestors. We know among Georgians who/which surname had Armenian, Circassian, Ossetian etc. ancestor 500-800 years ago.
So I repeat again there is no ethnic Georgian with haplogroup T, you like it or not...

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## zanipolo

> 99% of current Armenians moved to Georgia in 19th century or later, not 1500 years ago. 
> Is it really that strange for you to distinguish one ethnicity from another? You think it's impossible to differentiate between Swedes and Finns in Finland? or Saami from Finnish despite the fact that they live together for times immemorial? 
> 
> And between Armenians and Georgians it's very easy. They have their own church, speak their language and have their own surnames. 
> Georgia and the Caucasus is very specific place. We remember our ancient roots and ancestors. We know among Georgians who/which surname had Armenian, Circassian, Ossetian etc. ancestor 500-800 years ago.
> So I repeat again there is no ethnic Georgian with haplogroup T, you like it or not...



So how do georgians do an genetic census on its people. Language is not ethnicity, nor is religion or surnames.

It matters little to me if there is T in Georgia or not. What matters is the genetic trail of the All the haplogroups

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## Kardu

You can see which haplogroups are attested so far in Georgia here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Georgian-Y-DNA

When choosing candidates for the tests we check their surnames and places of origins. There are thousands of historical documents to verify from which villages or towns those surnames originate.
We are only about 4 million people and we are obsessed with our ancestries so everybody pretty much knows who is who.
For example, direct ancestor of Georgia's current president was an Armenian priest 350 years or so ago. Because of this he is not considered to be a real Georgian...

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## adamo

I have recently read a study stating that Turkish and Armenian haplogroup T is younger than iranian and Levantine T, apparently Levantine T is the oldest and the study suggests T may have originated in the levant coast region; the study is called " Genetic support for Neolithic origin of Armenian populations". In fact, the cluster of T individuals in Armenia reflects an entirely Levantine origin of these, none even arriving from Iran to Armenia. Either Iran or the red sea levant is where hg T first originated. In fact, I would go as far as to say it either originated in south-western/central Iran or near/directly on top of Jordan where it would easily have infiltrated into Egypt, but then again T is rare in Israel (but relatively common in northern Arabia) either Iran, Jordan, Lebanon or northern Saudi Arabia....)

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## adamo

It certainly didn't originate in the Caucasus or turkey region.

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## Kardu

Zanipolo, you might be pleased to hear that we have our first real T1a* among Georgians (Although we are still checking his background).

Interesting fact however is that he stands very far from the rest of T guys of the region, TMRCA being 17 000 (!) years ago.
Permutation method was used: 43240/2/625/37/0,00243=385-->685 generations or 17000 years.

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## zanipolo

> Zanipolo, you might be pleased to hear that we have our first real T1a* among Georgians (Although we are still checking his background).
> 
> Interesting fact however is that he stands very far from the rest of T guys of the region, TMRCA being 17 000 (!) years ago.
> Permutation method was used: 43240/2/625/37/0,00243=385-->685 generations or 17000 years.


thanks

It seems 17000 years is far too old for my line ( T1a2 ), it looks like it's the T1a1 line ( adamo's line ).

could be azerian, armenian, assyrian or kurdiah

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## Kardu

So far he is still ungrouped in T project - kit 258959

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ion=ycolorized

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## zanipolo

> So far he is still ungrouped in T project - kit 258959
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ion=ycolorized


using ypredictor to get a quick subclade , the result is

N Haplogroup Probability
1 T1a*-L162(xP77) 100%

which states -
*T1a1a1* (P77) Mostly found in Middle East, western Europe and Ashkenazi Jews.

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## adamo

Zanipolo, I messaged the individual you told me to contact for my y-DNA T analysis but no reply : ( lol

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## Suleyman

> Based on which data? There is no single T in Ossetian DNA project... Dagestan is North-East Caucasus. The map shows North-West. And I haven't heard about T among Georgians, although it is present among Armenians, but it's way to the south.


Kardu I am from Chechnya, and got my DNA result it says T haplogroup, most Chechens are J2, J1.. I wonder where did the T come from..

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## Expredel

> Kardu I am from Chechnya, and got my DNA result it says T haplogroup, most Chechens are J2, J1.. I wonder where did the T come from..


You might find this table interesting.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-(40K-samples)

The United Arab Emirates peaks at 18%, Kuwait is at 10%, Egypt is at 8%, and Saudi Arabia is at 7%.

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## Sile

> You might find this table interesting.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-(40K-samples)
> 
> The United Arab Emirates peaks at 18%, Kuwait is at 10%, Egypt is at 8%, and Saudi Arabia is at 7%.


he needs to find which one of the 4 main branches his T belongs to ..................they are as different as R1a is to R1b

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## Alpenjager

> You might find this table interesting.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-(40K-samples)
> 
> The United Arab Emirates peaks at 18%, Kuwait is at 10%, Egypt is at 8%, and Saudi Arabia is at 7%.


This is useless for that purpouse.





> Kardu I am from Chechnya, and got my DNA result it says T haplogroup, most Chechens are J2, J1.. I wonder where did the T come from..


You should join to the haplogroup T project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=K2-Male&vGroup=Y-Haplogroup-K2

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