# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Y-DNA of Arbereshe vs Albanians vs Southern Italians

## Angela

*Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe, Sarno, Tofanelli et al*

This is the link to the article:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

*Abstract*

"The relationship between genetic and linguistic diversification in human populations has been often explored to interpret some specific issues in human history. The Albanian-speaking minorities of Sicily and Southern Italy (Arbereshe) constitute an important portion of the ethnolinguistic variability of Italy. Their linguistic isolation from neighboring Italian populations and their documented migration history, make such minorities particularly effective for investigating the interplay between cultural, geographic and historical factors. Nevertheless, the extent of Arbereshe genetic relationships with the Balkan homeland and the Italian recipient populations has been only partially investigated. In the present study we address the genetic history of Arbereshe people by combining highly resolved analyses of Y-chromosome lineages and extensive computer simulations. A large set of slow- and fast-evolving molecular markers was typed in different Arbereshe communities from Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria), as well as in both the putative Balkan source and Italian sink populations. Our results revealed that the considered Arbereshe groups, despite speaking closely related languages and sharing common cultural features, actually experienced diverging genetic histories. The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. These processes ultimately resulted in the differential acquisition or preservation of specific paternal lineages by the present-day Arbereshe communities."



I haven't yet read the full paper, but I will.

There's also a wealth of information in the Supplementary Info:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html

They even have break downs of Tosk vs. Gheg.

This is the pie chart. It's clear that there was more admixture with locals in Sicily, but even in Calabria it looks to me as if there are some differences.


Table S4 has specific percentages for each group.

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## Sile

> *Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe, Sarno, Tofanelli et al*
> 
> This is the link to the article:
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html
> 
> *Abstract*
> 
> "The relationship between genetic and linguistic diversification in human populations has been often explored to interpret some specific issues in human history. The Albanian-speaking minorities of Sicily and Southern Italy (Arbereshe) constitute an important portion of the ethnolinguistic variability of Italy. Their linguistic isolation from neighboring Italian populations and their documented migration history, make such minorities particularly effective for investigating the interplay between cultural, geographic and historical factors. Nevertheless, the extent of Arbereshe genetic relationships with the Balkan homeland and the Italian recipient populations has been only partially investigated. In the present study we address the genetic history of Arbereshe people by combining highly resolved analyses of Y-chromosome lineages and extensive computer simulations. A large set of slow- and fast-evolving molecular markers was typed in different Arbereshe communities from Sicily and Southern Italy (Calabria), as well as in both the putative Balkan source and Italian sink populations. Our results revealed that the considered Arbereshe groups, despite speaking closely related languages and sharing common cultural features, actually experienced diverging genetic histories. The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. These processes ultimately resulted in the differential acquisition or preservation of specific paternal lineages by the present-day Arbereshe communities."
> 
> ...


very good.............please cancel mine in linguistic thread , even though mine is the full paper in PDF

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## Angela

Thanks for telling me. You're right, I don't think the Linguistics section is the proper place for it.

You just need to go to the link and then click on full text on the right to get the whole thing.

Never mind I'll just adjust the link. People don't seem to automatically know to do that.

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## Trojet

Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

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## Finalise

It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.

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## Sile

> It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.


Which would you say are the original or should i say the oldest albanians, ghegs or tosks?

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## Trojet

> Which would you say are the original or should i say the oldest albanians, ghegs or tosks?


Very good question :) personally I don't think haplogroups can give us that answer. Im sure there is haplogroup discrepencies in other countries too based on geography.

The only difference now is really more so geographical than anything else divided roughly by Schumbin river in central Albania (Tosks south, Ghegs north). Different dialects and somewhat different customs/traditions.

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## Finalise

I don't think such a thing as "original" exists. Most places in Europe are a mixture of their PIE ancestors, that brought their languages from the steppe, and the pre-IE populations, and so there are bound to be genetic anomalies. The mixture can never be completed in a fully homogeneous fashion. Linguistically speaking, considering that Doric Greek loanwords are scarce in the Albanian language (however they still exist so a complete removal from this area would be illogical), I would say the mountainous dialect of the Albanii tribe north of the Jirecek line in "Gheg territory" is the best candidate for the proto-Albanian language, which split into Gheg/Tosk around 400-600 AD. On the other hand the Taulantii, which were the Illyrians inhabiting "Tosk territory", were bilingual Doric-Illyrians, so they are not a good candidate for the proto-Albanian language. With this in mind, the Ghegs certainly have the better case for the "proto-Albanian" identity, although this is purely based on linguistics. If we were to take Dacian or Thracian as the linguistic ancestor of Albanian, then neither would be favoured. However, Dacian and Thracian had naming conventions that ended in -dava and -para for cities, something that is non-existent in modern Albanian, whose naming conventions are more akin to the southern Illyrian -aete, which is rendered as -et in the modern language. Indeed, if we were to go with the mainstream Illyrian theory, the R1b-L51* in Ghegs would strongly favour them as "proto-Albanians" considering the recent Vucedol findings, assuming L51 was in fact a PIE marker. All in all, I'm sure they've mixed to such an extent, that genetically speaking it would be relatively useless to comment.

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## Trojet

Finalise, a great observation. I have seen those suggestion about R1b- L51* I think them being the candidate for "Proto-Illyrians" makes more sense now with recent discoveries. 

In addition to discrepancies of J2b and E-V13 of Arbereshe, I noticed R1b-L51* didn't even register now. But important to note that Arbereshe even back then hardly represented the whole Albanian y chromosome. If no R1b-L51* went there, then of course it wouldn't show up now, however it is pretty clear that they show some mixing with Italians.

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## Pax Augusta

> *Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe.* It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.


Yeah, true!

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## Garrick

Very good thread and we can draw a lot of conclusions here.

When I set some data of Arbereshe and people of Albania from Dienekes' anthropology blog, some members spoke about "Dienekes propaganda" refering to his origin. However, we see this is true (I personally very appreciate Dienekes and his blog is very informative and serious).

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## Trojet

> Very good thread and we can draw a lot of conclusions here.
> 
> When I set some data of Arbereshe and people of Albania from Dienekes' anthropology blog, some members spoke about "Dienekes propaganda" refering to his origin. However, we see this is true (I personally very appreciate Dienekes and his blog is very informative and serious).


He was so wrong 5 years ago when he proposed that since J2 is pretty low now among Arbereshe that the current high percentage of J2 among Albanians is due to either the "Albanization" of Greeks, or the remnants of the Ottoman Turks from Anatolia. We now know that J2 in Albanians is actually overwhelmingly J2b and is more rare among Greeks and even more rare in Anatolia, and is actually considered as middle Neolithic in the Balkans, while in Anatolia and Greece J2 is mostly J2a.

He also said that I2a was much more rare in Albanians in the past because it is pretty low in Arbereshe. Well we now see that it is pretty high among Arbereshe according to this larger and recent study, comparable to Tosk Albanians levels.

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## Garrick

> He was so wrong 5 years ago when he proposed that since J2 is pretty low now among Arbereshe that the current high percentage of J2 among Albanians is due to either the "Albanization" of Greeks, or the remnants of the Ottoman Turks from Anatolia. We now know that J2 in Albanians is actually overwhelmingly J2b and is more rare among Greeks and even more rare in Anatolia, and is actually considered as middle Neolithic in the Balkans, while in Anatolia and Greece J2 is mostly J2a.
> 
> He also said that I2a was much more rare in Albanians in the past because it is pretty low in Arbereshe. Well we now see that it is pretty high among Arbereshe according to this larger and recent study, comparable to Tosk Albanians levels.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...search-results

Albanians (12)
9

70

250
AD
100
BC

Albanians (8)
9

59

525
AD
230
AD



Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

...
People who read his blog can conclude that Albanians came from North-East (Dacia; Romania/Moldavia). It is interesting some Romanian scientists claim this, too.

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## Trojet

> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...search-results
> 
> Albanians (12)
> 9
> 
> 70
> 
> 250
> AD
> ...


If that's what you want to believe, then go ahead it is wishful thinking :)

Here is the facts about haplogroups. Those TMRCA estimates by Dienekes are based on only 12 and in other cases 17 y STRs haplotypes, which experts would tell you do not tell you much about TMRCA, besides just predicting a haplogroup. That study is from 2008? This field has advanced so much ever since.

I have researched extensively my own J2b-L283 (J2b2). I have done a YSTR 37 test, so have done 4 more Albanians on FTDNA. Each one of us are showing ~20% GD towards each other, which would indicate a high diversity. Additionally, me and someone else have done a deep SNP testing, which shows the true TMRCA, and our TMRCA is 4400 years old. Logic would say that E-V13 should show the similar diversity since these two haplogroups show similar distribution patterns among Albanians.

It is pretty evident based on previous discussions with me that you should do some serious research on haplogroups before jumping to any conclusions or having a debate with me, otherwise I will not respond to you anymore.

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## Garrick

> If that's what you want to believe, then go ahead it is wishful thinking :)
> 
> Here is the facts about haplogroups. Those TMRCA estimates by Dienekes are based on only 12 and in other cases 17 y STRs haplotypes, which experts would tell you do not tell you anything about TMRCA, besides just predicting a haplogroup. That study is from 2008? This field has advanced so much ever since.
> 
> I have researched extensively my own J2b-L283 (J2b2). I have done a YSTR 37 test, so have done 4 more Albanians on FTDNA. Each one of us are showing ~20% GD towards each other, which would indicate a high diversity. Additionally, me and someone else have done a deep SNP testing, which shows the true TMRCA, and our TMRCA is 4400 years old. Logic would say that E-V13 should show the similar diversity since these two haplogroups show similar distribution patterns among Albanians.
> 
> It is pretty evident based on previous discussions with me that you should do some serious research on haplogroups before jumping to any conclusions or having a debate with me, otherwise I will not respond to you anymore.


You have E-V13 subclades which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. It's after Christ.

...
What Dienekes writes it can be interpreting consistently with these findings of Arbereshe by Italian scientists. Findings are very interesting. I have added this of Dienekes to facilitate interpretation and beneficial influence on the discussion.

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## Trojet

> You have E-V13 subclades which TMCRA is no older than 1,500 years. It's after Christ.
> 
> ...
> What Dienekes writes it can be interpreting consistently with these findings of Arbereshe by Italian scientists. Findings are very interesting. I have added this of Dienekes to facilitate interpretation and beneficial influence on the discussion.


This is so irrelevant to our discussion, but let me school you one last time. There is SNPs (subclades) identified by NGS (BigY, FGC) for a lot of haplogroups that are 1500 years old or less. Show me proof that most Albanians belong into this "new subclade" of E-V13. Of course they don't belong.
The current TMRCA of E-V13 is estimated to be 4400 ybp by yfull. It should however be older than that as we know that we have ancient DNA samples of E-V13 that are 7000 ybp. The reason why it is not is because not every known E-V13 sample has been sequenced by NGS yet. But it still shows that it formed 7700 ybp:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

As far as Dienekes arguments go, I already disproved them to you, I don't see anything in this paper that supports low E-V13 diversity. Again it is only a 17 Y STR study, and is not useful for a haplogroup diversity. U need at least 37 Y STRs to get an idea about diversity, or better deep SNP testing of a haplogroup which they didn't do either.

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## Angela

Very good analysts, using the data then available, may have reached incorrect conclusions. When trying to come to conclusions *now* we have to use the most currently available data. Even the latest dating methods have to be interpreted in light of actual facts on the ground, like the findings of ancient dna. No computed data can be believed if it contradicts that.





> Finalise: EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations.


Do the Tosks live in terrain that would leave them more isolated, and therefore they would be more likely to preserve ancient haplogroups?

This also has implications for the movement or path of R1b into Central Europe. Was it this far south, or are these old subclades (R1b-L51 xP311,R1b-M269 xL51) just more preserved there? Hopefully, we'll soon find ancient samples that will help to answer the questions.





> Garrick:People who read his blog can conclude that Albanians came from North-East (Dacia; Romania/Moldavia). It is interesting some Romanian scientists claim this, too


.

Or, as I've suggested before, the Slavs came down the middle.

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## Trojet

> Do the Tosks live in terrain that would leave them more isolated, and therefore they would be more likely to preserve ancient haplogroups?


It is actually quite the opposite. The Ghehs have been much more isolated as geography of northern Albania would indicate. If we consider both E-V13 and J2b as Neolithic in the Balkans, then this is the clear proof of Ghegs being more isolated since they show higher frequencies among Ghegs. In the case of I1 and I2a they probably indicate different more recent migrations, especially considering the fact that 11.5% of tosk I2a clearly looks "Dinaric" again TMRCA ~2500 ybp, while in Ghegs this is only about 3% accorging to different studies.

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## Angela

> It is actually quite the opposite. The Ghehs have been much more isolated as geography of northern Albania would indicate. If we consider both E-V13 and J2b as Neolithic in the Balkans, then this is the clear proof of Ghegs being more isolated since they show higher frequencies among Ghegs. In the case of I1 and I2a they probably indicate different more recent migrations, especially considering the fact that 11.5% of tosk I2a clearly looks "Dinaric" again TMRCA ~2500 ybp, while in Ghegs this is only about 3% accorging to different studies.


Sorry, I need more coffee. :) I obviously meant the Ghegs, as they have the older haplogroups.

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## Garrick

> This is so irrelevant to our discussion, but let me school you one last time. There is SNPs (subclades) identified by NGS (BigY, FGC) for a lot of haplogroups that are 1500 years old or less. Show me proof that most Albanians belong into this "new subclade" of E-V13. Of course they don't belong.
> The current TMRCA of E-V13 is estimated to be 4400 ybp by yfull. It should however be older than that as we know that we have ancient DNA samples of E-V13 that are 7000 ybp. The reason why it is not is because not every known E-V13 sample has been sequenced by NGS yet. But it still shows that it formed 7700 ybp:
> 
> http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
> 
> As far as Dienekes arguments go, I already disproved them to you, I don't see anything in this paper that supports low E-V13 diversity. Again it is only a 17 Y STR study, and is not useful for a haplogroup diversity. U need at least 37 Y STRs to get an idea about diversity, or better deep SNP testing of a haplogroup which they didn't do either.



Nothing Neolithic here. Even 4,400 years ago is not Neolithic. It is BA. But E-V13 about we talk is younger, you can see data of different World genetic networks.

Maciamo gave very good analyse for E-V13:




> Cardial was Neolithic, *but* E-V13 was only found in a single isolated Neolithic sample so far, while many Mesolithic C1a2, F, I*, I1, I2 popped up everywhere among Neolithic G2a samples. So, IMHO, E-V13 and indeed any E-M78 found in Neolithic Europe were assimilated Mesolithic Mediterranean people. Considering the high frequency of E-V13 in the Balkans today, if it had been among the original farmers, it would be found in all Neolithic settlements. That is not the case. If E-M78 had been Mesolithic HG in southern Europe, just like I1 and I2 had been in central and northern Europe, then it makes sense that few E-M78 show up among Neolithic farmers. They were eventually assimilated, little by little, or hid in the forests and mountains until the PIE Steppe people invaded the Balkans, destroyed the towns of Old Europe and caused a population collapse among Neolithic farmers. By then E-V13 ad J2b hunter-gatherers could have re-emerged in the new economy imposed by R1a and R1b invaders. That's what I explained in the E1b1b page since 2011 and I stand by it. 
> 
> E-M123, or actually its subclade E-M34, is the only type of E1b1b that I have linked to the Neolithic expansion. I remember mentioning it when Napoleon was found to belong to E-M34.
> 
> The E-V13 is western Anatolia, the Levant, Egypt and Libya can easily be explained by the Greek colonisation, followed by to Roman occupation, followed by the Byzantine rule. Overall that's over 1500 years of Greek or Roman presence in the region. Actually it's surprising that there isn't more E-V13 ! It's harder to explain the presence of E-V13 around Kurdistan, Iran and the Caucasus, except if E-V13 was a minority lineage of a PIE culture. I don't have data about E-V13 in Central Asia and India, but I think it is scarce. Nonethless, Kurdistan also happens to have an unsual amount of East European I2a1, R1a and even J2b, so it is not impossible that a back migration brought all these haplogroups together. Some will claim that it is the impact of the Greek colonisation too, since Alexander and his men had a particular attraction for Babylon, the largest city in his empire. Just speculations though.
> 
> No, from Tunisia to Sicily via Pantelleria island, as explained here.


E-V13 is almost solved story. Albanian language nothing to do with E-V13 and other languages in the Balkans or Caucasus or Anatolia too. E-V13 are assimilated. Some population assimilated them more, some less.

We can go further.

R1b M269 is not Neolithic in Europe. And what R1b M269 has with E-V13? Completely different origin. Of course somewhere these two populations merged.

You can see another haplogroups. Every has completely different origin. Only haplogroup which is Mesolithic and Neolithic is I haplogroup. About J2a we would be discuss. It is interesting significant R1a in Arbereshe. Albanians are very diverse and mixed. And Tosk are close to Greeks than Ghegs. And we see Arbereshe now, almost third story.

Someone cannot thinks that all of these very different haplogroups always were together, in Neolithic, and whenever. And only one (or two) gave the language. And it is not hard to guess which.

It is obvious that some older populations assimilated (and it is possible they hold older substratum) when the Albanians came to the territory of today's Albania. And we know that in big part today's South Albania lived Armanji (Aromanians). What is with Epirotes? Yetos could be better explain this. We can find more if want, but for now this is enough.

...
This Italian study is excellent, and we have more knowledge now. I would just prefer more precise labels for haplogroups. What it means R-M17? They should give accurate subclade, M17 is very generally and someone can thinks that haplogroup is in Central Asia, but probably it is not. There are other similar examples.

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## Djordjo

Southern Albanians assimilated one significant number of Slavs in the middle ages, northern very little.

Arbareshe colonists descend from southernmost parts of Albanian people, according to the Arbareshe dialect

We lack Albanian STR haplotypes on 37 or more markers in order to compare them the with similiar South Slav haplotypes especialy those E-V13

According to the newest genetic researches in Serbia, so far, it seems that Muslims in Sanjak region in Serbia have around half Albanian ancestry, but the speciment is so far to small to draw definitive conclusions.

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## Trojet

> I tell you what, the only thing stupid here is your ignorance. You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you


Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...

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## Angela

> Nothing Neolithic here. Even 4,400 years ago is not Neolithic. It is BA. But E-V13 about we talk is younger, you can see data of different World genetic networks.
> 
> Maciamo gave very good analyse for E-V13:
> 
> 
> 
> E-V13 is almost solved story. Albanian language nothing to do with E-V13 and other languages in the Balkans or Caucasus or Anatolia too. E-V13 are assimilated. Some population assimilated them more, some less.
> 
> We can go further.
> ...


I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?

The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.

Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a_ late_ arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.

Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are _private_ mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.

The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.

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## Garrick

> Where is Skerdilaid when I need him. No offense to anyone, but I find this comment of his in response to someone hilarious lol...


I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.

You can see:



Do you know something of Armanji?

Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.

You can see original homeland of Armanji (Aromanians; Vlachs how you want).

Albanians assimilated Aromanians, and haplogroups of Aromanians are now haplogroups of Albanians. But do you know how Aromanians assimilated? For example, did you hear for Ali Pasha of Tepelana?

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## Angela

> I give only facts. And I'm half part Serb. I'm multinational, three nationality.
> 
> You can see:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know something of Armanji?
> 
> Their main haplogroups are J2b, R1b (mostly ht35), I2 and E-V13.
> ...


What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!

It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others. 

Can you please stay on topic.

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## Garrick

> I have warned you before about writing what appear to be deliberately misleading posts. You are using a quote from Maciamo that claims an even OLDER presence for E-V13 in this part of Europe, to wit-the MESOLITHIC, not a younger one. Do you think we cannot read?
> 
> The Sopot Culture is dated to 4700-5000 BC, which is not BRONZE AGE in Europe...it is the NEOLITHIC. Statisticians can come up with any age estimates they wish, but they have to change their estimates if they conflict with ancient dna.
> 
> Also, you are conflating things. Almost everyone who posts on this Board agrees that R1b is a_ late_ arrival from the steppe, just like R1a. Probably, the "Dinaric" I2a also came late with the steppe people or even later with the Slav speakers. E-V13 is EARLIER than one and possibly both of those lineages in that area. I think only Bicicleur thought that E-V13 came from the steppe.
> 
> Of course there have probably been further mutations or downstream snps in E-V13. They happen in every lineage every couple of generations or sometimes less. There are _private_ mutations, for goodness sakes. That doesn't mean that the people living in the Balkans today who carry some downstream snps from the Neolithic E-V13 aren't descended from them.
> 
> The picture is still unclear for the Dinaric I2a bearers.


It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc. 

A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.

If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.

----------


## Garrick

> What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!
> 
> It might have been, probably was at high levels all over the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others. 
> 
> Can you please stay on topic.


It is important for theme because Tosks Albanians probably are mix including Armanji, Epirotes etc. There are opinions about it. And haplogrous between Tosk and Ghegs are significant different. Do you really think it is accidentally? No. We must include relevant factors in thread. J2b in Albanians today is possible influence of other populations. I will precise give haplogroups of Armanji. Today they are much smaller then of old, they didn't succeed to make their country, but their homeland is known.

----------


## Angela

> It is not accidentally, it is important, because Albanian language is from R1b ht35; not from E-V13 or J2b etc. 
> 
> A lot of today's Albanians are assimilated populations, for example Armanji (Aromanians), and Epirotes, etc.
> 
> If we neglect some important facts we can have a wrong image; with newer findings we can come to more knowledge; I want to hear anything useful of Albanians, not stories about Neolithic. Who spoke Albanian in Neolithic? Who were E-V13 Albanians in Neolithic? I only want hear here some real things, not fictions.


You are conflating language and genetics. I don't know if R1b carriers brought Albanian. Perhaps they did. I also don't know, however, what their autosomal composition was by the time that they got there. 

I do know that sometimes language changes because of elite dominance, which means it's imposed by a minority of people on a majority that carry different yDna and mtDna markers and autosomal signatures. I also know that the R1b is a minority lineage among the Albanians. 

The implications should be clear.

----------


## Angela

We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since_ at least_ the Neolithic.

In the Tosks, who may have mixed more with surrounding Slavic speakers, it's lower, at 41%.

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

This doesn't mean, you know, that Slavic speakers don't have ancestors from the Neolithic, G2a and T and E-V13 and J2b, as well as all the Near Eastern mtDna. A man's y dna is only from one ancestor among many, just the one direct male line. There could be all sorts of other yDna. The only way to get a handle on it is to do a 23andme test and then run the results through a calculator. Then people could estimate their percentage of EEF.

----------


## Trojet

Thank you Angela for pointing out the facts again. 

Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past. Hint at them, look at haplogroups in Serbia today for example: E-V13 is 15-20%, J2b is 5-7%.

----------


## Yetos

> We now know that 63% of the Gheg Albanians, who are the most isolated and least mixed group of Albanians, carry the E-V13 and J2b y lineages that have been present in the Balkans since_ at least_ the Neolithic.


1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?

2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
*E-v13 is Bulgarian?* cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13 
*and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?*

just wondering

----------


## Trojet

> 1) did they Speak Albanian or IE that time?
> 
> 2) you know my personal belives about E_v13 and konya E-v13 sample date,
> if the Italian university that crossed E-v13 with PC2 is correct in its possible then?
> *E-v13 is Bulgarian?* cause its older (by possibilities) than every other E-V13 
> *and Gegs came from Bulgaria to Albania?*
> 
> just wondering


You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.

If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:

"All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"

----------


## Maleth

> You don't make any sense here. Albanian is an IE language.
> 
> If you are going to make such a stupid proposal about E-V13, then I will also do the same so we make this thread stupid and with full of nonsense:
> 
> "All that E-V13 in Greece must have come from Gheg Albanians since the frequency is the highest in Gheg Albanians"


Relax Trojet  :Smile: . There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....

(quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

----------


## Trojet

> Relax Trojet . There is sense in what Yetos said, why should it be offensive? Read this well done study:- Bulgaria is sounding like a good candidate for E-V13 dispersal ;).....
> 
> (quoting) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) (/quoting)
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779


I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.

He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.

----------


## Ike

> What difference does it make what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!.


It makes huge difference because of this:




> Some of these Slav speaking people today would be surprised (if they use some logic), when they realize how many Albanian speaking ancestors they had at some point in the past.





> All that paper is saying that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity on Bulgaria, which is probably true. He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic.



We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?

----------


## Trojet

> We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?


This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.

BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...

----------


## Maleth

> I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.
> 
> He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.


It all depends were E-V13 was born (mutated), Some suggest it could be as old as 10,000 ybp and follow the traces of how it was dispersed and into what groups. We don't have those answers yet, just indications. It will take a while. We have no ancient samples from these candidate areas yet. I do not find it weird or impossible that E-V13 epicenter was say in Bulgaria and dispersed South West and North. By time we will have a much better understanding but surely not impossible.

----------


## Maleth

> We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?


I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?

----------


## Ike

> This is exactly the ignorance I was talking about.
> 
> BTW. The proof is in my blood (DNA) which tells me my Albanian ancestors have lived in the area for thousands of years. Now you show me proof that my ancestors didn't live in the area over 1000 years ago. Otherwise get lost...


Double facepalm. It's not up to me to prove that something was not. It's up to you to prove that your ancestors were Albanians, if you have interest in doing so.





> I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?


We have no clue who those E-V13 carriers were, and considering what we know about history we can only highly doubt they were Albanians.

----------


## Garrick

> I have read that a long time ago. And I am very familiar with Balkan haplogrouos. All that paper is saying is that E-V13 is showing a higher diversity in Bulgaria, which is probably true.
> 
> He claimed that he thinks Ghegs came from Bulgaria bringing along E-V13 too? Do u really believe that? E-V13 has been moving around the Balkans since the Neolithic. It would be absurd to make a statement such as that Gheg Albanians came from Bulgaria based on that paper.


Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.

One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.

----------


## Trojet

> Double facepalm. It's not up to me to prove that something was not. It's up to you to prove that your ancestors were Albanians, if you have interest in doing so.


I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. The proof is everywhere, whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:




> You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

----------


## Maleth

> We have no clue who those E-V13 carriers were, and considering what we know about history we can only highly doubt they were Albanians.


Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these people, and they blended into one another inThraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

Present dna indicators and history are very much aligned, we are getting closer and closer.

----------


## Trojet

> Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these people, and they blended into one another inThraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians
> 
> Present dna indicators and history are very much aligned, we are getting closer and closer.


Thank you Maleth :) but I don't think they will ever accept the facts. I don't get it. I have nothing against Slavs. I actually have had a couple of Serbian friends. I respect their history, language, culture, traditions, etc. I don't get why they can't do the same for us Albanians.

----------


## Maleth

> Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.
> 
> One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.


Here we go again  :Rolleyes:  :Bored: Goodnight all..... :Sleepy:

----------


## Garrick

> I very much doubt that. If we have 7000 ybp E-V13 in Spain and Bulgaria indicates Mesolitc age I doubt that Albania would be so young, considering the geographical proximity. Lets face it we are not talking about the other end of the world between Present indicators, so why single out Albania always as an outcast?


Maleth, 3.48% of E-V13 carriers in Europe and Turkey is Albanian. You can see how is small probability that they are ancestors of Albanians. Why not Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Italians etc.

And we know they are not. Because today's clades of E-V13 are much younger. You can see:

TMRCA from 4,400 to 1,500 ybp

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/ 

You know how long time we spent on Pelasgians but no one proof, not even a hint that they had any connection with Albanians.




> Here we go again Goodnight all.....


Maleth, it is true. Original language (languages) of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic.

Eupedia:
*E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.*

Yes languages of E-V13 carriers are extinct. A lot of languages unfortunately are extinct. Languages of I carriers are extinct. I had an exchange of views with Le Brok about it. This discussion is interesting.

----------


## Angela

> Ike;461472]It makes huge difference because of this:


 I have no interest in taking sides in nationalistic disputes among Balkan peoples. I have no dog in the hunt, as they say. 

All I know is that the haplogroups carried by Albanians have been in the Balkans since the Mesolithic (one branch of I2a), Neolithic (E-V13 and J2b) and Bronze Age (R1b and another branch of I2a), and yet we're supposed to believe that a people who carry all those clades at such high levels (especially E-V13 and J2b), and speaking an IE language, are Semites and Turks who suddenly arrived in the Balkans 1000 years ago? 

Have you ever heard the phrase "drinking the kool-aid"? 

That may be what was taught in certain quarters, but there is absolutely no scientific support for it. That's not to say that I think all the national groups in the Balkans have been tethered to certain kilometers of earth since the Neolithic. People no doubt moved around. 

As to the E-V13 higher diversity in Bulgaria, there are a number of ways that could have happened, one of which is that E-V13 could have entered Europe during the Neolithic from northwest Anatolia via Bulgaria. (That's not the only way, of course.)

----------


## Ike

> I have no time nor interest to school you Slavs all day long. If you are interested go do some research. *The proof is everywhere,* whether it's genetics, history, language, archeology, but then again I go back to my favorite quote:


Will someone stop this guy *telling lies?




*@Angela
And this is how it ends if you tolerate it.

----------


## Angela

> Language of E-V13 is Afro Asiatic. Some Albanian scholars search link Albanian with Ancient Egyptian, languages of Near Eastern civilizations and similar. And someone can find Afro Asiatic words in Albanian. What is later influence due to Islamization and Arab words, what is influence of ancient of E-V13 carriers, it is not easy for linguists to explain. But Albanian in basis is IE language, and it is not language of E-v13 carriers, or J2b carriers. Linguists in the world link Albanian with Armenian, North Iranian, Celtic, Baltic (Balto Slavic) etc. Albanian is Satem as Armenian, Iranian, Balto Slavic, Thracian. Armenian is language of R1b carriers and what's interesting respectable linguists found similarities Armenian and Albanian. Two New Zealand scientists found that Albanian split from Iranian and Indic languages. Some linguists find link Albanian with Osetian etc. Caucasus and east Anatolia, northern Iran are possible areas where Proto Albanian formed, and it is clear R1b carriers ht35 had important role in creating this language.
> 
> One important scientific paper will be published this year about movement of Armenians and R1b ht35 haplotype carriers. Scientists who research it argue that some misconceptions about movement of speakers this language and carriers this haplogroup in relation to Balkans, Anatolia, Caucasus, etc. will be removed. We will see that paper when it is published and set the thread.


There is a fundamental misunderstanding here of how gene flow and language can interact. 

Here is a very plausible scenario based on the facts as we now know them. The I2a Mesolithic people of the Balkans, who may be of a completely different branch than the I2a people who lived in the north or on the steppe, spoke goodness knows what mesolithic hunter gatherer language. As we now know, during the Neolithic *at the latest* they were joined by E-V13 and J2b people, who spoke who knows what farmer/cow herder language. I'm not even going to get into a discussion of it because* it's irrelevant from which language family it derived; it got there in the Neolithic*. During the Bronze Age, R1b people arrived and imposed Albanian, their Indo-European language, on the I2a, E-V13, and J2b people who were already there. Add in some minority later arriving "Dinaric" I2a and some R1a, et voila, you have the Albanians.

You should be aware that most people who read this site have at least a modicum of knowledge about genetics and archaeology and history, and they will not be convinced by these kinds of a-scientific and illogical arguments.

@Ike,
The poster Trojet has posted only arguments supported by scientific data. I see no such support for any of your commentary.

@Trojet,

I know that it's difficult, but there are rules about civility here...

I, for one, may have to read some of this stuff, but I don't have to waste time responding to it, so if I do it will be in the briefest of terms, just so that casual readers aren't misled into thinking that these arguments are accepted.

----------


## Hauteville

Only 18 samples from Piana degli Albanesi is a really small number considering that it's the core of Arbereshe group.
I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?

----------


## Trojet

> I have read in supplementary infos that Arbereshe have more I-M223, E-M123 and slighty more percentale of U106.
> Do they have got them with the mixing with local Sicilians and Calabrese or just low number of samples?


Yes. IMO, the much higher frequencies of those 3 mentioned haplogroups in comparison to Albanian populaton, is a clear evidence that Arbereshe over the years have inherited a somewhat significant southern Italian Y chromosome as that paper suggests.

----------


## Garrick

> There is a fundamental misunderstanding here of how gene flow and language can interact. 
> 
> Here is a very plausible scenario based on the facts as we now know them. The I2a Mesolithic people of the Balkans, who may be of a completely different branch than the I2a people who lived in the north or on the steppe, spoke goodness knows what mesolithic hunter gatherer language. As we now know, during the Neolithic *at the latest* they were joined by E-V13 and J2b people, who spoke who knows what farmer/cow herder language. I'm not even going to get into a discussion of it because* it's irrelevant from which language family it derived; it got there in the Neolithic*. During the Bronze Age, R1b people arrived and imposed Albanian, their Indo-European language, on the I2a, E-V13, and J2b people who were already there. Add in some minority later arriving "Dinaric" I2a and some R1a, et voila, you have the Albanians.
> 
> You should be aware that most people who read this site have at least a modicum of knowledge about genetics and archaeology and history, and they will not be convinced by these kinds of a-scientific and illogical arguments.


Angela, I just try to severity. You know, I'm supporter of Anatolian hypothesis and not Kurgan hypothesis. Although Kurgan hypothesis possible still has more support, I think science will round off Anatolian hypothesis. New Zealand scientists in basis of Anatolian hypothesis and using new methodology and computer modeling came to their classification of IE languages. According them:

 

We can clearly see here first split Hittite and rest of IE, second split Tocharian languages and rest of IE, third split Greek and Armenian and rest of IE etc. We can see split Albanian and Indic and Iranian languages. We can see split Balto Slavic and Western Languages (Celtic, Germanic, Romance). Albanian even today has some similarities with North Iranian languages, (even Pashtun and eastern languages), there are languages Eastern Anatolia and Caucasus, even Caspian. If we speculate it is possible that once existed Proto Indic Iranic Albanian language. It can be possible if R1b ht35 carries speakers of Proto Albanian were more eastern comparing to R1b ht35 carriers, speakers of Proto Armenian.

What is dispute here?

1. There is a scientific basis: Anatolian hypothesis

I would like that Albanians or someone support Kurgan or some third hypothesis.

2. There are scientific papers: for model it is Grey, Atkinson, and they published this in more papers.

Of course there are different models. But everyone use one of them.

Why I say scientists from New Zealand. Because all what I give any "Slavic" source Polish, Bulgarian, etc. they claim Slavic propaganda. I have problem because serious scientists from more countries can't use, and their papers. But to be honest, if every scientist from Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine etc. is propagandist. I can argue that they are serious scientists with serious papers, but "for peace in home" I will not use them, at least not quote.

Plus there are more sources, papers scientists about link Albanian with Armenian, etc.

3. There is genetic evidence. We know Armenian haplogroups and populations in Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia. We have now and Armenian samples from BA, and they confirm R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype.

What I speculate? For example movements. Who knows? There is hypothesis about movement of Armenians from Balkans to Anatolia, but Armenian scientists strictly deny it. Therefore is important to read paper about it which will be published this year.

In any case Albanian speakers came to the Balkan.
...

I never defended someone to give his or her views. Everyone can say what he or she thinks, of course you're right some good practice should exists. 

And I make mistakes. I like when someone notices it. When it is case I say that it is mistake. Who writes makes mistakes. One Englishman once told me that if I want to not make errors I must think in English. But I can't think in English.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Yes. IMO, the much higher frequencies of those 3 mentioned haplogroups in comparison to Albanian populaton, is a clear evidence that Arbereshe over the years have inherited a somewhat significant southern Italian Y chromosome as that paper suggests.


I think so.

----------


## Ike

> @Ike,
> The poster Trojet has posted only arguments supported by scientific data. I see no such support for any of your commentary.


LOL, this is gennig ridiculous. And I thought that there were some serious people here. Damn... :Confused:

----------


## Yetos

@Angela

I would expand my question,

Minoan culture is full of J2a,
we determing it as a Greco-Anatolian gene
we connect expand of J2a with Greek-colonization
but is it Greek? or is it Pelasgian?
so if I say that J2a is Greek means IE means that spoke IE at 3500 BC
and homeland of IE is somewhere in West asia from minor Asia to middle East
but if I say Pelasgian, means not IE 

so in such case
if I say E-V13 is Albanian marker then
E-V13 spoke IE before 3500 BC and is IE Hg
cause Albanian lang is IE so Albanians came from either Yamnaa, either Zagros mountains and souroundings,
so how come we can connect pre IE hg with IE Hg?
it is like we admit Otzi spoke IE cause he lived in Swiss and G2a3b as mark of IE entered before Yamnaa in Alps,
in such case all Kurgan hypothesis connection with IE is wrong

----------


## Garrick

> @Angela
> 
> I would expand my question,
> 
> Minoan culture is full of J2a,
> we determing it as a Greco-Anatolian gene
> we connect expand of J2a with Greek-colonization
> but is it Greek? or is it Pelasgian?
> so if I say that J2a is Greek means IE means that spoke IE at 3500 BC
> ...


Anatolian hypothesis is much more natural and better aligned with genetics, linguistics, history etc. Some things will be purified of course with more evidence and knowledge. Proto Albanian formed in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus or Northern Iran. Of course, in Anatolian hypothesis there is much more interesting things but it is not for this thread.

Albanians, who claim that they are in continuity of 7,000 years in the Balkans because they think E-V13 in the Balkan has continuity 7,000 years, are in greatly mistaken. It is fiction.

Because *E-V13 had big bottleneck*. We can see *TMRCA for clades and subclades of E-V13 is from 4,400 years ago to 1,500 years ago*.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

But and 4,400 ypb is optimistic. *It is probably 3,500 ypb*.

Yetos, you know what is funny. Albanians here in forum say that they have data, but *no one E-V13 carrier in Europe and beyond has TMCRA 7,000 years*.

Here, let the Albanians turned the whole world and find someone E-V13 European whose ancestors 7,000 years old.

*Common ancestor today's E-V13 lived 3,500 ypb* (in the best case 4,400 ypb but it is optimistic).

And it is very important method which someone uses. In many scientific studies unfortunately authors make big mistakes. For example using Zhivotorovski's method numbers of year of common ancestor can be 3 or 4 time bigger! I told one Albanian man for that and he saw that I'm right.

Dienekes 2008 calculated years for some E-V13 population in the Balkans. You can hear: propaganda, big mistake, he didn't take this or that, his calculation is obsolete, he gave fast conclusions etc. However, and today, and with all fresh data, including new samples, results will not be drasticallty different. Reason, there are no E-V13 older than 3,500 (real) or 4,400 (optimistic) ypb.

----------


## Trojet

> Anatolian hypothesis is much more natural and better aligned with genetics, linguistics, history etc. Some things will be purified of course with more evidence and knowledge. Proto Albanian formed in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus or Northern Iran. Of course, in Anatolian hypothesis there is much more interesting things but it is not for this thread.
> 
> Albanians, who claim that they are in continuity of 7,000 years in the Balkans because they think E-V13 in the Balkan has continuity 7,000 years, are in greatly mistaken. It is fiction.
> 
> Because *E-V13 had big bottleneck*. We can see *TMRCA for clades and subclades of E-V13 is from 4,400 years ago to 1,500 years ago*.
> 
> http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
> 
> But and 4,400 ypb is optimistic. *It is probably 3,500 ypb*.
> ...


If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.

The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again. 

This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs

As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:



> There is SNPs (subclades) identified by NGS (BigY, FGC) for a lot of haplogroups that are 1500 years old or less. Show me proof that most Albanians belong into this "new subclade" of E-V13. Of course they don't belong.
> The current TMRCA of E-V13 is estimated to be 4400 ybp by yfull. It should however be older than that as we know that we have ancient DNA samples of E-V13 that are 7000 ybp. The reason why it is not is because not every known E-V13 sample has been sequenced by NGS yet. But it still shows that it formed 7700 ybp:
> 
> [url]http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/[/url


BTW, I will not respond to you or anyone else if you keep bringing the same nonsense (cherry picking things to support your propaganda)...

----------


## Trojet

Double post

----------


## Sile

since most of you guys go with dates of yfull.......new dates made available yesterday

E-V13..........CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053 * CTS1408/Z1045 * Z21285/Y3182... 35 *SNPs**formed 7700 ybp*, *TMRCA 4400 ybp*

----------


## Garrick

> since most of you guys go with dates of yfull.......new dates made available yesterday
> 
> E-V13..........CTS5935/PF2235/Z1053 * CTS1408/Z1045 * Z21285/Y3182... 35 *SNPs**formed 7700 ybp*, *TMRCA 4400 ybp*


Sile, I gave same data, you can see, TMRCA is 4,400 ypb. I think it is some optimistic, probably more real is 3,500 ypb. But it doesn't matter, if more or less. Lets cemented *TMRCA 4,400 ybp*.

And you can see *all clades and subclades E-V13 are between TMRCA 4,400-1,500 ybp*.

There are no older. Why. Because E-V13 had big bottleneck. Today's E-V13 carriers in Europe are young. And you can see in all databases in the world.

----------


## Garrick

> If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.
> 
> The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again. 
> 
> This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs
> 
> As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:
> 
> ...


It is not propaganda: *Original language or languages E-V13 carriers are Afro Asiatic*.

*Why hard facts someone wants call propaganda*, it is not correct, and it is wrong.

If Albanians would speak language of E-V13 carriers their language would be Afro Asiatic.

But we know Albanian language is IE, it can has some Afro Asiatic words of E-V13 carriers but it is minority.
...

Who wants to read about haplogroup E and Afro Asiatic languages, here is for example, one newer paper in Nature:

*Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism*

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201441a.html

----------


## Hauteville

Y-DNA distribution in the Table S4:

Arbereshe Calabresi 106 samples
E-V12 2.83
E-V13 16.98
E-V22 0.94
E-M123 7.55
G-P15 6.60
G-P15* 4.72
G-U8 1.89
I-M253 5.66
I-M253* 1.89
I-L22 3.77
I-P215 5.66
I-M26 1.89
I-M223 14.15
J-M267 2.83
J-M172 2.83
J-M410 1.89
J-L27 1.89
J-M67 0.94
J-M92 0.94
J-M12 3.77
K-M9 0.94
R-SRY10831.2 9.43
R-M17 9.43
R-M269 8.49
R-M269* 8.49
R-P312 0.94
R-U152 0.94
R-U152* 0.94
R-L2 3.77


Arbereshe Siciliani 44 samples
E-V13 4.55
E-M81 2.27
E-M123 18.18
G-P15 2.27
G-P15 2.27
I-M253 4.55
I-M253* 4.55
I-P215 20.45
I-M26 2.27
J-M410 4.55
J-L27 4.55
J-M67 9.09
K-M9 2.27

----------


## Angela

> If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.
> 
> The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again. 
> 
> This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs
> 
> As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:
> 
> ...


I think that may be the best option. One can only reason with the reasonable.

----------


## Garrick

> LOL, this is gennig ridiculous. And I thought that there were some serious people here. Damn...


Ike, you can be right, but what is important here is hard evidence.

Surely, I argue based in facts. I can't give all scientific studies here because reasons which I explain.

But it is proved that E-V13 had bottleneck and present day clades and subclades are young.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-11/1321209732

*There are 4 mutations between them, which (for the mutation rate constant for this 13 marker haplotype of 0.0305 mutation/haplotype/25 years) separates the 7,000 ybp fellow and the common ancestor of the current V13 by 3750 years. Since a common ancestor of the current V13 lived 3200-3500 years ago, this separation is just about right (3200/3500 + 3750 = 6950-7250 years)*. 


Four important conclusions follow from it: 


1) *The 7,000 ybp excavated fellow was NOT a common ancestor of our contemporary V13 folks*. It has a 4-mutation-off haplotype, *it is distant by 3750 years, and our contemporary V13 are NOT his descendants*. 


2) However, the time is right, and calculations confirm the 7,000 years haplotype in terms that can be 7,000 year old. 


3) Our calculations support the excavated haplotype. 


4) *E-V13 went through a population bottleneck before 3500 ybp, therefore our contemporary E-V13 descended from a man who survived that bottleneck and continued the chain of V13 generations from ~ 3500 ybp to the prsent time*.

----------


## Angela

> @Angela
> 
> I would expand my question,
> 
> Minoan culture is full of J2a,
> we determing it as a Greco-Anatolian gene
> we connect expand of J2a with Greek-colonization
> but is it Greek? or is it Pelasgian?
> so if I say that J2a is Greek means IE means that spoke IE at 3500 BC
> ...


Yetos, I'm going to give this one more try with you. A lot of the details will be missing, but this is just very broad parameters.

Y Dna doesn't have a nationality attached to it, nor a language, or, let's say, those associations can change with time. E-V13 is NOT an Albanian marker. It is a marker for a group of farmers who, we now know, were present in the Balkans at the LATEST 7,000 years ago. (If Maciamo is right, its father E-M78 might have been in Greece or the Balkans since the Mesolithic thousands of years earlier.)

It's irrelevant what language they spoke. 

Everyone in the Balkans today, no matter whether they are Albanian or Serbian or Greek or Bulgarian is partly descended from those people. Now, there were other yDna lineages present before them, and others after them, like R1b and R1a, for example. All these people mixed, but some lineages are higher in certain groups than in others, maybe just because of founder effect. 

So, no one group OWNS E-V13. It was a farmer haplogroup in Greece and the Balkans. That's it. Serbians who carry E-V13, and Greeks who carry E-V13, and anyone else in the Balkans who carries E-13 can claim descent from those people. In fact, even Greeks and Serbs and others who don't carry E-V13 are descended from them. Let's take as an example a Greek who carries yDna J2a. What was his mother's father's y line? Could it have been E-V13? What about all the y lines on that whole side of his family. Or, what about the y line of the father's mother's father? Do you see? Their y chromosome didn't get passed on, but their autosomal dna did get passed on to some degree.

Now, as to TMRCA. Let's imagine that a man lives in the Balkans 5000 BC or 7,000 years ago. Let's assume he carried "original" E-V13. He had, to just pick a number, 8 sons. In the first generation, they all had sons. In the next generation, one son's line "daughtered out". Then more line's "daughtered out" just by chance in succeeding generations. The y lines that survived had accumulated some additional mutations. What we wind up with is a situation where all the E-V13 that's in the Balkans today descends from the one line that survived to 4400 years ago. That line is still descended from the 7,000 year old line. New people didn't suddenly parachute in. The line remaining is still descended from the prior group.

Mathbionerd usually explains things pretty clearly. Give his site a try...
http://mathbionerd.blogspot.com/2013...ve-part-2.html

----------


## Trojet

> *There are 4 mutations between them, which (for the mutation rate constant for this 13 marker haplotype of 0.0305 mutation/haplotype/25 years) separates the 7,000 ybp fellow and the common ancestor of the current V13 by 3750 years. Since a common ancestor of the current V13 lived 3200-3500 years ago, this separation is just about right (3200/3500 + 3750 = 6950-7250 years)*.


Again, you are cherry picking things to support your anti Albanian propaganda. 

You are jumping way off topic and turning this thread into an E-V13 debate, but I need to correct you on this one too.

That discussion is about the Spain E-V13 sample that was 7000 ybp. Look at the date, November 2011. 



> Date: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 7:11 PM


It has nothing to do with the two recently found samples in western Hungary from ~6800 years ago. Again their TMRCAs are based on only 13 marker Y STRs of the Spain E-V13 sample, which I explained to you that the method is very misleading. For better TMRCAs you need at least 37 markers, or better yet NGS samples such as BigY that yfull implements on their tree (btw. no Albanian samples on yfull yet, $500 test).

----------


## Angela

> Ike, you can be right, but what is important here is hard evidence.
> 
> Surely, I argue based in facts. I can't give all scientific studies here because reasons which I explain.
> 
> But it is proved that E-V13 had bottleneck and present day clades and subclades are young.
> 
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-11/1321209732
> 
> *There are 4 mutations between them, which (for the mutation rate constant for this 13 marker haplotype of 0.0305 mutation/haplotype/25 years) separates the 7,000 ybp fellow and the common ancestor of the current V13 by 3750 years. Since a common ancestor of the current V13 lived 3200-3500 years ago, this separation is just about right (3200/3500 + 3750 = 6950-7250 years)*. 
> ...


So? It's irrelevant. I'm afraid you're very confused as to what TMRCA means. See post #64.

----------


## Trojet

> So, no one group OWNS E-V13. It was a farmer haplogroup in Greece and the Balkans. That's it. Serbians who carry E-V13, and Greeks who carry E-V13, and anyone else in the Balkans who carries E-13 can claim descent from those people. In fact, even Greeks and Serbs and others who don't carry E-V13 are descended from them. Let's take as an example a Greek who carries yDna J2a. What was his mother's father's y line? Could it have been E-V13? What about all the y lines on that whole side of his family. Or, what about the y line of the father's mother's father? Do you see? Their y chromosome didn't get passed on, but their autosomal dna did get passed on to some degree.
> 
> Now, as to TMRCA. Let's imagine that a man lives in the Balkans 5000 BC or 7,000 years ago. Let's assume he carried "original" E-V13. He had, to just pick a number, 8 sons. In the first generation, they all had sons. In the next generation, one son's line "daughtered out". Then more line's "daughtered out" just by chance in succeeding generations. The y lines that survived had accumulated some additional mutations. What we wind up with is a situation where all the E-V13 that's in the Balkans today descends from the one line that survived to 4400 years ago. That line is still descended from the 7,000 year old line. New people didn't suddenly parachute in. The line remaining is still descended from the prior group.


Thank you :) Spot on. I wonder what else they will cherry pick to support their anti Albanian propaganda.

----------


## Fluffy

> Thank you :) Spot on. I wonder what else they will cherry pick to support their anti Albanian propaganda.


There is no anti-Albanian propaganda.....

----------


## Trojet

> There is no anti-Albanian propaganda.....


You must have not read the whole thread. One example:




> We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?

----------


## Ike

> So, no one group OWNS E-V13. It was a farmer haplogroup in Greece and the Balkans. That's it. Serbians who carry E-V13, and Greeks who carry E-V13, and anyone else in the Balkans who carries E-13 can claim descent from those people. In fact, even Greeks and Serbs and others who don't carry E-V13 are descended from them.


Wrong. It was proven a page ago that they all spoke Albanian before Greeks and Slavs came...  :Thinking:

----------


## Милан М.

To which language Albanian is akin the most?I heard Lithuanian,joke aside I think Balto-Slavic-Albanian long ago split and now we have this languages.

----------


## Trojet

> To which language Albanian is akin the most?I heard Lithuanian,joke aside I think Balto-Slavic-Albanian long ago split and now we have this languages.


Good question. No proven "current language" relative. It has been tried to be linked with Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Greek, Indic, etc in the past, but without much success. Obviously it is an Indo European language just like all those mentioned, so there is some connection. However, it is simply listed as a separate branch on the IE language tree with no relative.

----------


## Милан М.

> Good question. No proven "current language" relative. It has been tried to be linked with Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Greek, Indic, etc in the past, but without much success. Obviously it is an Indo European language just like all those mentioned, so there is some connection. However, it is simply listed as a separate branch on the IE language tree with no relative.


 :Good Job:

----------


## Ike

> You must have not read the whole thread. One example:



OK, so how many times do we have to ask for proofs?

----------


## Ike

> Ike, you can be right, but what is important here is hard evidence.
> 
> Surely, I argue based in facts. I can't give all scientific studies here because reasons which I explain.
> 
> But it is proved that E-V13 had bottleneck and present day clades and subclades are young.
> 
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-11/1321209732
> 
> *There are 4 mutations between them, which (for the mutation rate constant for this 13 marker haplotype of 0.0305 mutation/haplotype/25 years) separates the 7,000 ybp fellow and the common ancestor of the current V13 by 3750 years. Since a common ancestor of the current V13 lived 3200-3500 years ago, this separation is just about right (3200/3500 + 3750 = 6950-7250 years)*. 
> ...


Disregarding all calculation times, do we have a single ancient E-V13 sample from Balkans or Anatolia?

----------


## Trojet

> We still don't have a prof of a single Albanians person on Balkan just 1000 years ago. Why do we tolerate this nonsense?


"The name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century ce by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Albanoi

----------


## Ike

> "The name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century ce by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania."
> http://www.britannica.com/topic/Albanoi


How is that proof of anything? That is just 1 of at least 100 tribal names in the area. It means nothing in Albanian language. It is believed to be of Celtic origin, and there is no proof of continuity. Which one of these are supposed to be speaking Proto-Albanian?

----------


## Sile

> "The name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century ce by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania."
> http://www.britannica.com/topic/Albanoi


here we go again, fabrication of other areas indigenous people and claiming as one own. the albanoi was FIRST used in Roman literature in 150AD

below is the biggest group of indigenous illyrians, and they are from what I already stated, modern croatia and Bosnia
*Daesitiates or Daezitiates were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is today Bosnia and Herzegovina during the time of the Roman Republic. Along with the Maezaei, the Daesitiates belonged to the Pannonians.[88] They were prominent from the end of the 4th century BC up until the beginning of the 3rd century AD. Evidence of their daily activities can be found in literary sources, as well as in the rich material finds that belong to the autochthonous Middle-Bosnian cultural group. Because the Daesitiates were present during Roman rule in the western Balkans, their name can be found in many inscriptions and historical works of ancient writers. During the 19th century, scientific interest in the Daesitiates materialized whereby research was focused in parts of Upper Bosnia. However, all research efforts have yet to provide a complete analysis of the Daesitiates. The Daesitiates were unquestionably one of the main components of the Illyrian ethno-cultural complex that stretched from the southern Adriatic to the Danube in the north. They specifically lived in the centre of the Illyrian West-Balkan and Pannonian world. The capital of the tribe was the modern day town of Breza located in Bosnia. 
*
They last 700 years and the remnants of the 4 year illyrian revolt against Rome saw them flee into southern albania ( apollonia to be exact )

next the dalmatians*
Archaeology and onomastic shows that the Delmatae were akin to eastern Illyrians and northern Pannonii.[5] The tribe was subject to Celtic influences.[6][7]

 
*The Liburnians are one of the oldest Illyrian group IF they are still classified Illyrian, they lived in the northern adriatic coast 
*In the early historical sources from the 8th century BC, the Liburnians were recorded by name or as separate ethnic groups; and as early as the 6th century BC, Hecateus noted that the Liburnians were also composed of Caulici, Mentores, Syopii and Hythmitae, probably narrow tribal communities. 

*to conclude the longest reign of any Illyrian group where the ones I mentioned above *Daesitiates*, they fought in the great illyrain revolt against Rome which lastest 4 years, their lands where found the bulk of the illyrian archeology and they where always mentioned in Roman literature for this or that

----------


## Trojet

> here we go again, fabrication of other areas indigenous people and claiming as one own. the albanoi was FIRST used in Roman literature in 150AD
> 
> below is the biggest group of indigenous illyrians, and they are from what I already stated, modern croatia and Bosnia


Look who joined the recycling of the same old anti Albanian propaganda over and over, VETTOR. Oops my bad you are known as Sile on this forum. 

The real facts are in front of your eyes, on the quotation and the link on the bottom where you quoted me. All that comes from BRITTANICA ENCYCLOPEDIA, not from me. Obviously, you didn't even bother to read.

BTW, here is you VETTOR, or as you are known here SILE recycling the same propaganda on a different forum where I schooled you (BTW, I have the same user name there TROJET). Will not waste my time to school you here too:



> Albanians as per Roman scribes and surveyors where not around modern Albania until probably first mentioned by Romans in 150AD. The huge numbers 68% means a one off migration IMO ( especially since they where never recorded)
> 
> I can only see the indigenous pre- Bosnian populace has the major I2a ( ydna ) marker


And the link:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project/page2

----------


## Ike

So we should trust it just because it says Encyclopedia Britannica?! This is just a same old British political crap...
For the 5th time - restrain yourself from various interpretations but link us the facts. Are you aware of that concept?

----------


## Trojet

> So we should trust it just because it says Encyclopedia Britannica?! This is just a same old British political crap...
> For the 5th time - restrain yourself from various interpretations but link us the facts. Are you aware of that concept?


I'm done with you guys on this thread here. Again no offense, but you guys are proving true to this:




> You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

----------


## Angela

This thread has been derailed for long enough. The topic is the comparison of the yDna of Albanians,Arbereshe and southern Italians. 

Any further posts that are off topic will be removed.

----------


## Sile

> Look who joined the recycling of the same old anti Albanian propaganda over and over, VETTOR. Oops my bad you are known as Sile on this forum. 
> 
> The real facts are in front of your eyes, on the quotation and the link on the bottom where you quoted me. All that comes from BRITTANICA ENCYCLOPEDIA, not from me. Obviously, you didn't even bother to read.
> 
> BTW, here is you VETTOR, or as you are known here SILE recycling the same propaganda on a different forum where I schooled you (BTW, I have the same user name there TROJET). Will not waste my time to school you here too:
> 
> 
> And the link:
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Project/page2


LOL, do not concern yourself about my ID, I have a different one for every forum. Ask me and I will tell you which I am.

But it amazes me you had to be taught by me on what the x meant on the Albanian marker tests ..............here are some from table 3 ( below)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

I-M253(xM227,L22)

J-M12

R-M269(xL51)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

E-M123

I-M223

R-M269(xL51)

R-L51(xP311)

K-M9(xM45)

E-V13(xV12,V22)

F-M89

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L51(xP311)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

I-P215(xM26,M223)

R-L2

I-P215(xM26,M223)



You fail to answer historical notes and you do not even know what
the X represents..........do you even know what the * means?

----------


## Sile

@angela......maybe a thread is required to educate people on what each symbol represents in genetic markers because clearly, many think certain symbols mean the same for any text regardless if its genetics or not

----------


## Trojet

> LOL, do not concern yourself about my ID, I have a different one for every forum. Ask me and I will tell you which I am.
> 
> But it amazes me you had to be taught by me on what the x meant on the Albanian marker tests ..............here are some from table 3 ( below)
> 
> E-V13(xV12,V22)
> 
> I-M253(xM227,L22)
> 
> J-M12
> ...


OMG...Someone else asked that question and I just clicked on your post "thanks" and thanked you for your answer so that I didn't have to answer it to the user who asked about the "x" in front of a SNP haplogroup, which obviously means someone tested negative for that SNP. Here is that question and obviously it's not me asking it. Do you need glasses or are you making a fool out of yourself lol:



> Could you clarify for a non-technical person like me? I understand about the R-M17 since M-458 is an eventual subgroup. But are you saying that the classification I-P215 (xM26,M223) is wrong, and should be I-P215 (I-CTS10228)? Does "x" mean "either/or"?


And the link:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...rbereshe/page2

FYI, I was the one who extracted that data from the paper and wrote the "x" too, along with everything else. I also created that thread there. I posted the same data here too. They are on page one.

The * after a haplogroup means that the tester is not positive for any known downstream SNPs of that haplogroup, and that he is forming an undiscovered SNP.

----------


## Yetos

> If someone is to go by the Anatolian hypothesis, then all IE languages have origin somewhere in Anatolia.
> 
> The Kurgan hypothesis has shown that is the more accepted one now, even ancient dna supports this, but lets assume that the Anatolian hypothesis is the correct one (the one you're blabbering about). It looks like you havent done your research on this either, but let me school you again. 
> 
> This hypothesis states that languages spread with farming starting 9000 ybp from Anatolia. So who were these farmers who stayed in the Balkans? We know it is E-V13 and J2b because we actually have ancient DNA of these from ~7000 ybp. According to the Anatolian hypothesis, Albanian is the first language to emerge in the southern Balkans around 5000 ybp, even before Greek look closely at this model of this hypothesis and you will see for yourself:
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs
> 
> As for E-V13 goes I was the one who gave you that link and somehow your mind cannot comprehend how those TMRCAs are calculated. I already explained this to you here:
> 
> ...


I suggest you see this video here
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...592#post458592

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos, I'm going to give this one more try with you. A lot of the details will be missing, but this is just very broad parameters.
> 
> Y Dna doesn't have a nationality attached to it, nor a language, or, let's say, those associations can change with time. E-V13 is NOT an Albanian marker. It is a marker for a group of farmers who, we now know, were present in the Balkans at the LATEST 7,000 years ago. (If Maciamo is right, its father E-M78 might have been in Greece or the Balkans since the Mesolithic thousands of years earlier.)
> 
> It's irrelevant what language they spoke. 
> 
> Everyone in the Balkans today, no matter whether they are Albanian or Serbian or Greek or Bulgarian is partly descended from those people. Now, there were other yDna lineages present before them, and others after them, like R1b and R1a, for example. All these people mixed, but some lineages are higher in certain groups than in others, maybe just because of founder effect. 
> 
> So, no one group OWNS E-V13. It was a farmer haplogroup in Greece and the Balkans. That's it. Serbians who carry E-V13, and Greeks who carry E-V13, and anyone else in the Balkans who carries E-13 can claim descent from those people. In fact, even Greeks and Serbs and others who don't carry E-V13 are descended from them. Let's take as an example a Greek who carries yDna J2a. What was his mother's father's y line? Could it have been E-V13? What about all the y lines on that whole side of his family. Or, what about the y line of the father's mother's father? Do you see? Their y chromosome didn't get passed on, but their autosomal dna did get passed on to some degree.
> ...


thank you
I hope the ones who read it, also understand it

----------


## DuPidh

> Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:
> 
> Gheg Albanians:
> E-V13: 38%
> J2b: 25%
> R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
> R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
> I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
> R1a-M17: 2.5%
> ...




Ola Amigos! 
Interesting topic! My grandfather was albo from Atica, Greece! He told me that Albaneses before migrating to Italy were for 300 years in Greece. They were invited by local landlords to protect their possessions from the invaders.
Turkish invasion was the reason for their migration. So there was not a direct migration from Tosk lands to South Italy. As such should be kept in mind that there was some mixture in Greece before they also got some other mixture in Italy with local populations. So Any discrepancy between Tosk Y dna and Arbereshe could be result of population mixtures.
Tosk Albanians were invaded by Bulgarian Empire for about 100 years. Majority of southern toponims in South Albania are Slavic. That means many Slavic settlements in south were Albanised. Also for 200 years the Goths settled there. Its documented and the archaeology proves it. That's why Tosk y-dna is somehow different from Gheg. So the real Iliric population are the Ghegs.

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## Trojet

Hi. Nice username btw lol... For the most part I agree with what you said, except this:



> So the real Iliric population are the Ghegs.


Although the Tosk Albanian population is more mixed than Ghegs, it doesn't mean that they are are not Illyrian at the core. The Gheg Albanians are probably the least mixed population in the Balkans, so it is a bit of a unique situation due to mostly the geography of Northern Albania, and other factors.

----------


## DuPidh

> Hi. Nice username btw lol... For the most part I agree with what you said, except this:
> 
> Although the Tosk Albanian population is more mixed than Ghegs, it doesn't mean that they are are not Illyrian at the core. The Gheg Albanians are probably the least mixed population in the Balkans, so it is a bit of a unique situation due to mostly the geography of Northern Albania, and other factors.


I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?

----------


## Trojet

> I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
> Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?


Any hypothesis of E-V13 or its ancestral clade entrance into Europe is just that, a hypothesis at this point. Only ancient DNA will prove a hypothesis which we lack from southern Italy, or southern Balkans.

However, we know that E-V13 has been found so far in two different Neolithic cultures (Spain and Hungary), so by 7000 years ago, it was in both of these areas. There is two most plausible hypothesis about its entrance into Europe:
1. Directly from north Africa to southern Italy, or even southern Balkans.
2. From north Africa, to the Levant, to Anatolia, and then to southern Balkans.

----------


## Angela

> I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
> Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?


This is what a comparison of Arbereshe and "host" uniparental markers shows:

"The estimated proportions of genetic admixture confirm the tight relationship of Calabrian Arbereshe with modern Albanian populations, in accordance with linguistic hypotheses. On the other hand, population stratification and/or an increased permeability of linguistic and geographic barriers may be hypothesized for Sicilian groups, to account for their partial similarity with Greek populations and their higher levels of local admixture. "

Also:
"The Arbereshe of Sicily survive today in only three municipalities of the province of Palermo (9057 inhabitants, 10,2%).4, 6 They are characterized by lower geographic isolation and smaller population size, as well as by higher levels of linguistic erosion. Historical evidence also suggests a more intricate formative process, which involved intermediate steps in the Balkans and Italy, as well as subsequent repeopling events from Greece.10 Our first investigation of the uniparental genetic structure of Sicilian Arbereshe confirmed stronger paternal links with Greek populations and higher similarities with Sicilians from the maternal perspective.3"

Again:
"By comprehensively considering STR- and SNP-based results under a stationary model, the scenario that best approximates empirical data in the case of ARB_CAL is a migration from Toskeria to Calabria by 200–900 migrants and a local contribution to the genetic pool of the new settlements comprised between 5 and 20% (Table 1, Figure 4)"

As to the Arbereshe in Sicily,
"In fact, 120 (or fewer) migrants from a Tosk or a Tosk/Greek source population (Figure 4) and a local contribution >50% (Table 1) were estimated."

This isn't the whole of the story, however. This paper examines the uniparental markers of those migrants from the Balkans or Greece who remained in their ancestral communities, many of them in isolated mountains and plateaus. It doesn't attempt to measure the amount of gene flow "out" from members of these communities who in generations past moved from these areas and intermarried with locals in areas outside the core zones.

Just anecdotally, I know quite a few Italian Americans from the south of Italy who claim an Arbereshe ancestor or two. 

At any rate, this all partly explains, in my opinion, this conclusion from Ralph and Coop IBD analysis of European populations:
"There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. "

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

----------


## Hauteville

That study says that there are some affinities in the paternal and maternal side but Y-DNA of Arbereshe show some influences from the local populations as well not just on the mtDNA.

----------


## Hauteville

> Any hypothesis of E-V13 or its ancestral clade entrance into Europe is just that, a hypothesis at this point. Only ancient DNA will prove a hypothesis which we lack from southern Italy, or southern Balkans.
> 
> 
> 
> However, we know that E-V13 has been found so far in two different Neolithic cultures (Spain and Hungary), so by 7000 years ago, it was in both of these areas. There is two most plausible hypothesis about its entrance into Europe:
> 
> 1. Directly from north Africa to southern Italy, or even southern Balkans.
> 
> 2. From north Africa, to the Levant, to Anatolia, and then to southern Balkans.



Imo it's more easy the hypotesis of the first E1b1b carriers move to Europe from Gibraltar but anyway you must look at the map of the Mediterranean basin in in the Wurm period.

----------


## Hauteville

> I saw that Y dna of Arbereshe has similarities with Greek Y Dna, but Mtdna of Arbershe is close with that of Sicilian people. Does this proves what Maciamo has said in one of his posts that The very first E person in Europe may have landed in Sicily and from there spread to Europe?
> Other words, The first E person out of Africa landed in Sicily and over there mated with a Sicilian women of Neolithic?



The study analizes only the Arbereshe cities not the whole populations though they noticed more hererogenity in the Sicilian part also in the paternal side than the Calabrian-ones.
Calabrian Arbereshe live more isolated in the mountains while some other cities in Sicily are nowadays Italianized like Biancavilla or Sant'Angelo Muxaro.

----------


## Garrick

> So? It's irrelevant. I'm afraid you're very confused as to what TMRCA means. See post #64.





> Now, as to TMRCA. Let's imagine that a man lives in the Balkans 5000 BC or 7,000 years ago. Let's assume he carried "original" E-V13. He had, to just pick a number, 8 sons. In the first generation, they all had sons. In the next generation, one son's line "daughtered out". Then more line's "daughtered out" just by chance in succeeding generations. The y lines that survived had accumulated some additional mutations. What we wind up with is a situation where all the E-V13 that's in the Balkans today descends from the one line that survived to 4400 years ago. That line is still descended from the 7,000 year old line. New people didn't suddenly parachute in. The line remaining is still descended from the prior group.
> 
> Mathbionerd usually explains things pretty clearly. Give his site a try...
> http://mathbionerd.blogspot.com/2013...ve-part-2.html


On the contrary, I am very satisfied with your response.

I wrote very similar as you, but some members thought it is propaganda.

Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.

Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp, for example (there are variations, i.e. many similar posts of different members):




> The current Balkan I2a is called "Dinaric" and the TMRCA is no older than 2500 years.


I will quote often your post #64, and of course, reputation.

----------


## Finalise

Some comments here are completely ridiculous. EV-13 speaking an Afro-Asiatic language? Did Chadic and Nigerian tribes speak the same language as Siberian hunter gatherers because they were both R1b? The original tribes/carriers of these haplogroups are long gone since the Paleolithic, we have no clue of their language or culture, and now all we have is remnants of their Y-Dna that survived one way or another through bottlenecks and founder effects. A good example are I2a samples, which even as early as the Neolithic, had completely different autosomal components behind them.

----------


## Trojet

> Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.
> 
> Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp


It is not the same as the other haplogroups because of this, here is my full quote since you left out an important part of it:



> The current Balkan I2a is called "Dinaric" and the TMRCA is no older than 2500 years. *And it is thought to have originated outside the Balkans*


E-V13 actually diversified in the Balkans 4400 ybp. All of I2a that is found today at very high frequencies in Slavic speaking countries is *thought to have originated outside the Balkans* (north) and falls into I2a-CTS10228 "dinaric" or as yfull calls it I-Y3111 it has TMRCA of only 2300 ybp:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3111/

*Most of it made it to the Balkans with the Slavic migrations.*

----------


## Angela

> On the contrary, I am very satisfied with your response.
> 
> I wrote very similar as you, but some members thought it is propaganda.
> 
> Because it is same as for all other haplogroups.
> 
> Some members here in forum say that TMRCA for I2a Din is 2,500 ybp, for example (there are variations, i.e. many similar posts of different members):
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.

However, I'm afraid there is still a problem. The issue with "Dinaric" I2a for someone who wants to claim that it has been present in the Balkans since the Mesolithic is not its age; it's that to my knowledge we have yet to find any evidence that the branch of I2a that led to "Dinaric" I2a was ever in the Balkans. Even if it was, it wouldn't mean that most of it didn't arrive with the Slavic migrations. However, any protracted discussion of this issue belongs in another thread.

----------


## Garrick

> I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.
> 
> However, I'm afraid there is still a problem. The issue with "Dinaric" I2a for someone who wants to claim that it has been present in the Balkans since the Mesolithic is not its age; it's that to my knowledge we have yet to find any evidence that the branch of I2a that led to "Dinaric" I2a was ever in the Balkans. Even if it was, it wouldn't mean that most of it didn't arrive with the Slavic migrations. However, any protracted discussion of this issue belongs in another thread.


I don't change my position. I only explain that have same opinion with you about TMRCA.

Problem is disappearance of old clades. It is case with different haplogroups, not only E-V13. I would not here about causes of disapperance of old clades.

New clades could be different and with different locations.

There is short picture about Balkans.

*Balkans*

*I phase, about 20000-25000 ypb Haplogroup I (I1, I2)*, (hunter gatherers)

*II phase, about 9000 ypb Haplogroups I2* (transition to farmers), *arrival of G2* (early farmers); there was found *F** too, maybe it can be any specific haplogroup G, I etc.

*III phase, about 7000 ypb I2, G2*, *arrival of E-V13, J2, C* (farmers)

*Bottleneck, about 4,400-3,500 ypb*, *disappearance of old clades*.

Consequences:

*G2, C: almost extinct
I2, E-V13, J2: younger clades exist*.

And it is whole short story about arrival carriers of different haplogroups in the Balkans.

Story about nations is different because nations are linked with language and culture. *For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian*. *Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans*. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.

----------


## Trojet

> *For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian*. *Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans*. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.


*Don't you have anything better to do besides trashing Albanian threads in here*, because that's all I have seen some of you guys do here at Eupedia. Sometimes I can't stop laughing at your ridiculous arguments.

Nobody knows what these members of haplogroups spoke in the Neolithic and who spoke proto Albanian. It doesn't even matter. All we know for sure is that *the Albanian language is estimated to be 5000 years old by some estimates, and that the ancestors of Albanians have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age (proven by genetics).* 

Here is another source by the New York Times stating that Albanian arose in southern Balkans some 5000 years ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...4-origins.html

All some of you guys on Eupedia do is cherry pick vague arguments and try to make Albanians to be some kind of "recent arrivals" from the middle east or who knows from where, maybe you will suggest mars next time. *When time and time again you are proven wrong, not just by me, but by other members as well. I would be ashamed.*

----------


## Ike

> I'm glad to see you've changed your position, and we won't have to read over and over again that a TMRCA of 4400 ybp for the largest cluster of E-V13 in the Balkans today means these carriers are not descended from the mid to late Neolithic bearers of E-V13. Perhaps other posters will likewise be convinced by this and by the fact that we have actual y Dna "E" from the Neolithic Balkans and will spare us claims that somehow the Albanians are descendents of people dumped in the Balkans 1000 years ago.


FGS, nobody says that people are dumped. It is about language and nationality.






> All we know for sure is that *the Albanian language is estimated to be 5000 years old by some estimates, and that the ancestors of Albanians have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze age (proven by genetics).*


1. Some fragments of Albanian language are that old, not the language itself. And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago. 

2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.

----------


## Angela

> FGS, nobody says that people are dumped. It is about language and nationality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Some fragments of Albanian language are that old, not the language itself. And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago. 
> 
> 2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.


This is not a thread about linguistics. However, as a public service, genetics and language are two different things. A small elite population can impose its language on a much larger group. Also, for general information, the Slavic languages, the Latin languages, Greek, and Albanian, are all Indo-European languages which are late arrivals to the Balkans. They are all equal in that respect. I think time lines are irrelevant, but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival. 

Now, back on topic.

----------


## Ike

Mistake. Delete.

----------


## Trojet

> And although people who currently speak Albanian have been around for milleniums, we still have not a single proof that any of them spoke Albanian just 1000 years ago


Here is another source by the New York Times stating that *Albanian arose in southern Balkans some 5000 years ago:*
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...4-origins.html




> but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival.





> You South Slavs seem to have unpenetratable thick skulls, that need to be smacked few times before you can concentrate and pay attention on a subject and what is presented in front of you

----------


## Ike

It seems there have been no more than 100 speakers of it for 4.000 years, since hundreds of languages have been mentioned in ancient scripts, and none of it was Albanian.

----------


## Trojet

> It seems there have been no more than 100 speakers of it for 4.000 years, since hundreds of languages have been mentioned in ancient scripts, and none of it was Albanian.


Since you admit that the the current Albanian speakers, around 7 million, have lived there for thousands of years, show me proof who "Albanized" these indigenous people in Albania, Kosovo, and other places just 1000 years ago, and only then I'll respond to you regarding this issue.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians

----------


## Ike

> *What difference does it make* what genetic exchanges, if any, took place in some kingdom dating from the first century AD? The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!


It makes difference because E-V13 is very old group. Any fine speculations about it's origin without knowing subclades are pointless. I still remember the time when whole internet was filled with R1b origin in Spain. 




> It might have been, *probably was at high levels* *all over* the Balkans. The emigration of steppe people and Slavic speaking peoples lowered the levels in some places more than others. 
> Can you please stay on topic.


We have no idea about that. May be very true, but may be as true as that Spain was filled with R1b in 5000 BC.

----------


## Skerdilaidas

> Story about nations is different because nations are linked with language and culture. *For Albanians it is clear that E-V13 and J2 are not speakers of Proto Albanian*. *Speakers of Proto Albanian didn't live in the Balkans*. It is not tabu, and we can speak about it, and it is linked with the thread.


Why are you and few other retarded Serbians so concerned with our history and in general with anything that has to do with Albanians?? If I was a Serb like you, I would be very concern and also fascinated to find out which hut/tent did the Avaro/Huns keep your female ancestors, when they dragged your kind down to Balkans. Archaeology should be what you ought to concentrate on. I bet you belong to Q y-dna too, don't you? lol

----------


## ukaj

Can someone please explain the results to these studies please.Im kinda of confused in why they mention an gheg between 2 familys that say they have never mixed their blood.An then it some how has determined who arbreshe are an were..preetty silly if you ask me,Anyway

----------


## Skerdilaidas

> Can someone please explain the results to these studies please.Im kinda of confused in why they mention an gheg between 2 familys that say they have never mixed their blood.An then it some how has determined who arbreshe are an were..preetty silly if you ask me,Anyway


Can you be more specific, what don't you understand?

----------


## RobertColumbia

> ...
> 2. There is a pre-IE substrate in both ancient Greek and Albanian, and some people lived on Balkans before they arrived.


Yes, and it is also highly likely that there are pre-IE substrates in many, if not most, other IE languages. For example, Uralic in Russian, Dravidian in Sanskrit, and possibly Basque in Germanic, Celtic, and/or Romance.




> This is not a thread about linguistics. However, as a public service, genetics and language are two different things. A small elite population can impose its language on a much larger group. Also, for general information, the Slavic languages, the Latin languages, Greek, and Albanian, are all Indo-European languages which are late arrivals to the Balkans. They are all equal in that respect. I think time lines are irrelevant, but if we look at the Balkans, Slavic is actually the last arrival....


It's also worth mentioning that the opposite sometimes happens. Occasionally a small elite population adopts the local language. This happened in France (the conquering Franks, who named the country, abandoned their own German in favor of the local Latin dialect, which they also named after themselves), China (the Manchu dynasty rulers adopted the local Mandarin Chinese as their language), and several Viking communities such as Kievan Rus and Normandy.

----------


## drroots

My AncestryDNA test shows that I have tens (if not hundreds) Arberesh matches at "5th cousins" distance, in fact more than Albanians "5th cousins" .... Anyone else has Arberesh matches in good numbers ? Any FamilyTreeDNA forums with Arberesh Y-DNA results?

Based on my latest research my family should have been around Montenegro ~1500s (mother side and father side)....

----------


## Fustan

> My AncestryDNA test shows that I have tens (if not hundreds) Arberesh matches at "5th cousins" distance, in fact more than 5th cousins Albanians.... Anyone else has Arberesh matches in good numbers ? Any FamilyTreeDNA forums with Arberesh Y-DNA results?
> 
> Based on my latest research my family should have been around Montenegro ~1500s (mother side and father side)....


I match an Arberesh from Palermo at 34 of 37.

----------


## drroots

> I match an Arberesh from Palermo at 34 of 37.


I'm sorry, what "at 34 of 37" matching means?

Update : You mean you have a GD3 match in Y37 with an Arberesh ?! Wow, that's awesome ! I don't have a single match other than few Y12s/ GD1

I just have tens of autosomal matches with Arberesh.....

----------


## drroots

> Southern Albanians assimilated one significant number of Slavs in the middle ages, northern very little.
> 
> Arbareshe colonists descend from southernmost parts of Albanian people, according to the Arbareshe dialect
> 
> .


Based on my research, seems like the latest migrations of Albanians in Italy must have been from South ... but the earliest ones were Gheg...... I have tens (if not hundreds) matches in AncestryDNA with Arberesh people and most of the matches I contacted confirmed to me that they were originally Gheg.... 15+ years ago, close to my old house (Ashburn/VA) used(is?) to be a Greek Orthodox church, and I used to get invited to their religious celebrations.. and I met a lot of "greek" Albanians ..... when I spoke to the elders , who knew absolutely no greek (only tosk albanian) and they all told me that originally came from North- Kruja/Shkodra/montenegro(Kuci, Vuxan?,Cousinje?) and they were Catholics ....., whoever had money and influence , they made it across the Adriatic.....

I did not pay attention back then, but after getting my ancestryDNA result and matches, all my greek matches seems to be Albanians with old albanians lastnames & their greek locations are where Albanians/Arvanitas settled after turks occupied Albania : mostly in Attiki/Athenes & Peleponese.... Lastnames : Ballas/lekas/Tsano/Petro-Leka/Ghellos ... It's known Arvanitas & Greek migration to Sicily from Morea/greece.

I just learned recently based on DNA results and following & digging the paper(&oral)-trail.... that all my direct 4 grandparents lines where in Montenegro/Albania border ~1500-1600.... Seems like there is a migration expansion from Montenegro/North Albania towards South after Turks occupation.... I don't know why majority of this migration moved south instead of north ? Was greece/peleponese back then considered a strong-hold ?
Were the mountains of Montenegro/Albania the latest southern anti slavic fortress and after turkish occupation they felt is safer in greece than let's say north orthodox Serbia ?

I spoke to some of my "Serbian" 5th cousins... and since 'everyone' seems to be originally from Montenegro, we all wonder what was the population of Montenegro back then :)

----------


## drroots

> Ola Amigos! 
> Interesting topic! My grandfather was albo from Atica, Greece! He told me that Albaneses before migrating to Italy were for 300 years in Greece. They were invited by local landlords to protect their possessions from the invaders.


Very Interesting... I have a good number of "greek" 4-5th cousins from Attiki....I would not be surprised if were cousins :) Have you uploaded you autosomalDNA to GEDMatch ?

----------


## LABERIA

> Based on my research, seems like the latest migrations of Albanians in Italy must have been from South ... but the earliest ones were Gheg...... I have tens (if not hundreds) matches in AncestryDNA with Arberesh people and most of the matches I contacted confirmed to me that they were originally Gheg.... 15+ years ago, close to my old house (Ashburn/VA) used(is?) to be a Greek Orthodox church, and I used to get invited to their religious celebrations.. and I met a lot of "greek" Albanians ..... when I spoke to the elders , who knew absolutely no greek (only tosk albanian) and they all told me that originally came from North- Kruja/Shkodra/montenegro(Kuci, Vuxan?,Cousinje?) and they were Catholics ....., whoever had money and influence , they made it across the Adriatic.....
> 
> I did not pay attention back then, but after getting my ancestryDNA result and matches, all my greek matches seems to be Albanians with old albanians lastnames & their greek locations are where Albanians/Arvanitas settled after turks occupied Albania : mostly in Attiki/Athenes & Peleponese.... Lastnames : Ballas/lekas/Tsano/Petro-Leka/Ghellos ... It's known Arvanitas & Greek migration to Sicily from Morea/greece.
> 
> I just learned recently based on DNA results and following & digging the paper(&oral)-trail.... that all my direct 4 grandparents lines where in Montenegro/Albania border ~1500-1600.... Seems like there is a migration expansion from Montenegro/North Albania towards South after Turks occupation.... I don't know why majority of this migration moved south instead of north ? Was greece/peleponese back then considered a strong-hold ?
> Were the mountains of Montenegro/Albania the latest southern anti slavic fortress and after turkish occupation they felt is safer in greece than let's say north orthodox Serbia ?
> 
> I spoke to some of my "Serbian" 5th cousins... and since 'everyone' seems to be originally from Montenegro, we all wonder what was the population of Montenegro back then :)



No, this people, the Albanians who migrated in Greece, Arvanites and the Arbëreshë of Italy are mostly Tosk Albanians. This is the big picture. Then behind this there are many things. For example, Albanians were considered among the best soldiers and were used as mercenary by all the Empires. First of all the Venetians and of course the Kingdom of Naples. But in every important European army there was an Albanian regiment. King of England used Albanian mercenaries to protect the borders with Scotland. The Spanish Empire had Albanian mercenaries. The Russian Empire had an "Albanian Army", Albansko Voisko. The French Empire during the reign of Napoleon had an Albanian regiment. The British Empire also had an Albanian regiment. And of course the Ottoman Empire used Albanians as soldiers. Albanians were considered the Swiss of Ottoman Empire. For example, the Venetians used Albanians(Catholics from North but also Orthodox from South) to protect their territories from North Adriatic against the Croatian pirates named Usok, in Peloponnese, Crete, Cyprus, etc. 
So, finding Geg among this Arbëreshë it's normal. But as i said the majority of Arbëreshë are from Central and South Albania and a part of them are Arvanites from Greece. 
Geg Albanians migrated mostly in North Italy, Venice, etc. But they were assimilated because they had the same religion with Italians, they were Catholics. Meanwhile Tosk were Orthodox and continued to preserve their religion in Italy and this saved them from the assimilation.

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## drroots

> No, this people, the Albanians who migrated in Greece, Arvanites and the Arbëreshë of Italy are mostly Tosk Albanians. This is the big picture. .......are from Central and South Albania and a part of them are Arvanites from Greece.


Laberia, 
Sorry If I sounded like I am overlooking the genetic contribution of Tosks in Europe or its quantity.... I was simply highlighting my conclusion that the earliest arberesh settlements based on my research seems to be from Gheg areas ( ..and btw isn't centre/middle Albania Gheg too?). 

I agree with you that majority of Ghegs settled in northern part of Italy while the majority of all Arberesh originated from Albanian Tosk areas (even though some of these tosks came from areas like "Bregu Detit" etc places which were 'recently' populated with newly arrivals of Ghegs - ref. Ekrem.B.Vlora)

Here is a good chronology of Arberesh settlements from Dr. Lutfi Alia that matches with my view:
http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/news/i...0%93-1774.html


Take care :)

PS:
I find it very fascinating that I have few matches with Scura and/or Tocci. As far as I know both are Albanian Ghegs and migrated very early.. before Albania's fall under turks occupation...

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## LABERIA

> Laberia, 
> Sorry If I sounded like I am overlooking the genetic contribution of Tosks in Europe or its quantity....


I said Albanian mercenaries, not Tosk Albanian mercenaries. Pra mund ta kishe kursyer këtë pjesë. 




> I was simply highlighting my conclusion that the earliest arberesh settlements based on my research seems to be from Gheg areas ( ..and btw isn't centre/middle Albania Gheg too?). 
> 
> I agree with you that majority of Ghegs settled in northern part of Italy while the majority of all Arberesh originated from Albanian Tosk areas (even though some of these tosks came from areas like "Bregu Detit" etc places which were 'recently' populated with newly arrivals of Ghegs - ref. Ekrem.B.Vlora)
> 
> Here is a good chronology of Arberesh settlements from Dr. Lutfi Alia that matches with my view:
> http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/news/i...0%93-1774.html
> 
> 
> Take care :)
> ...


Let me repeat what I said in my previous post. The majority of Albanians who migrated during the Middle Ages in Greece and South Italy, Sicily, are native from South Albania. The dialect spoken by these two diasporas is Tosk. That being said, we must say that there were Albanians of Northern Albania among these exiles. But the majority was from southern Albania, or Epirus.
In this context i explained you the role of the Albanians as mercenaries. There were huge movements of populations. 
About the article of Lutfi Alla, my opinion is time that Albanian historians have to stop to make compilations of what other medieval or modern authors have said about this topic, we can find this authors in Internet. Now they have to start to dig in the archives of Venice, Spain, England, etc. Pëllumb Xhufi published recently a book, Arbërit e Jonit, The Ionian Arbër. I have not read this book, but seems that is an interesting work. He was personally for some months in the archives of Venice and according to him, there is a huge quantity of materials about Albanians in this archives.

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## Johane Derite

> It seems the Arbereshe represent one end of the scale (southern), and the Ghegs the other end (northern), with the Tosks fitting perfectly in the middle. EV13, J2b, R1b-L51*, are highest in Ghegs, but lowest in Arbereshe. I2, R1a, R1b-M269*, are highest in Arbereshe, they are lowest in Ghegs. Tosks are almost always in the middle.Ironically, southern European markers like EV13 and J2b are a lot higher in northern Ghegs, while northern European markers like I1, I2a2 and R1a are higher in Arbereshe. It's fascinating to see how low EV13 and J2b are in Arbereshe that mark the typical Albanian populations. The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations.






> Yeah, true!


Can anyone help me make sense of this: "The high ExV13 shows that they have mixed with other populations." Since the guy who originally made the comment is banned maybe you 
know Pax since you replied?

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## Ownstyler

> Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples are on table S3:
> 
> Gheg Albanians:
> E-V13: 38%
> J2b: 25%
> R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
> R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
> I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
> R1a-M17: 2.5%
> ...


Trojet Thank you for the haplogroup info. Unfortunately I don't know how to do what you have done, so I would ask you if you could do the same for the Arvanite groups from the same study? I am very interested to know how the compare since they left Albania even earlier than the Arbereshe.

Thank you!

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## Trojet

> Trojet Thank you for the haplogroup info. Unfortunately I don't know how to do what you have done, so I would ask you if you could do the same for the Arvanite groups from the same study? I am very interested to know how the compare since they left Albania even earlier than the Arbereshe.
> Thank you!


They didn't include any Arvanites in this study, nor have I seen any Arvanite Y-DNA study.

While we're at this specific study, the results I have posted over two years ago, are based on what the paper reported. It seems they have messed up some SNPs for R1b haplogroup, perhaps lab error. So in the case of Gheg and Tosk Albanians, according to STR analysis, the vast majority of R1b is actually *R1b-BY611*(xL51).

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## Eldritch

Very curious the presence of Germanic Y-DNA among Tosk Albanian speakers.

I- M253 - 3.85%
I- M253* - 3.85%
I- M223 - 4.81%

More than 10% which is not typical for southern europe at all.

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## blevins13

> Very curious the presence of Germanic Y-DNA among Tosk Albanian speakers.
> 
> I- M253 - 3.85%
> I- M253* - 3.85%
> I- M223 - 4.81%
> 
> More than 10% which is not typical for southern europe at all.


Gothic warriors 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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## Angela

> Very curious the presence of Germanic Y-DNA among Tosk Albanian speakers.
> 
> I- M253 - 3.85%
> I- M253* - 3.85%
> I- M223 - 4.81%
> 
> More than 10% which is not typical for southern europe at all.


It depends on the area. I don't know if you've seen the tables in the thread on the Grugni et al paper on Italian yDna.

The DiGaetano results are in post 30, the Boattini paper results are in post 35, and the Grugni data is post 41.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=dna+Italians

It's extremely variable in Italy.

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## Ownstyler

> They didn't include any Arvanites in this study, nor have I seen any Arvanite Y-DNA study.


Sorry, it seems they just had two Greek samples. I thought I read they are Arvatnites but I guess I was mistaken.

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## Maca

> The ydna "E" lineages were already in the more western Balkans areas in 5000 BC!


Could you direct to me to at least one research that has found E-V13 PRESENCE in western Balkans 5000BC?

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## Ownstyler

> Could you direct to me to at least one research that has found E-V13 PRESENCE in western Balkans 5000BC?


She said "E" not "E-V13". E-V13 didn't happen until 5700 BC and its TMRCA is at 2800 BC, so it's unlikely anyone will find remains of E-V13 from before that date, anywhere. E1b, on the other hand, was found in Croatia in remains dated around 5400 BC (Methieson et al 2017).

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