# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Veneti

## how yes no 2

there are Veneti tribes in several parts of Europe in distant places and different times... but there are also Eneti in Paphlagonia in Asia Minor,
in fact let's hear what Strabo have to say about it...
from Strabo's book:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...thracian,eneti



> ....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a *tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.*16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, *were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians*, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, *crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy,* and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]




Strabo claims that Adriatic Veneti origin from Eneti from Paphlagonia, that is from area south of Black Sea

let's look something that I was missing before regarding I2a2..its variance in Turkey is relatively high, while frequency is low and there was no recent I2a2 settlements in Turkey...this indicates it might have come from there...
we can see that area of enlarged variance of I2a2 has some offset from Paphlagonia to the west, but this is normal taking into account that many centuries later invasion of Ottomans might have initially caused movement of all Asia minor people somewhat towards west... as similar offset have happened in Balkans with Serbs and Croats..


furthermore there is hotspot of variance of I2a2 in area of Adriatic Veneti 


here we see slight offset to the east of highest variance compared to position of Adriatic Veneti....in fact highest variance is in population of Slavic Slovenia

now let's move our attention to the hotspot of variance in the area above Black sea...this was for very long period settlement of Sarmatians


let us now remind ourselves about historical records of Vistula Veneti



> Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called *Sarmatian Venedi* (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, *Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi*; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
> In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay.
> The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now look at big Slavic tribes in 6th century


Venedi, Slavs, and Antes (Antae/ Anti)
Anti on place where Sarmatians were...
Isn't Anti obviously also a name derived from Eneti?

thus, let us reconsider following question: could ancient Veneti have been original carriers of I2a2 amongst Slavic people?

and could Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti, Anti and Veneti from Britanny be related that is comming from the same origin?

could we claim thus that there is a link between Veneti and Sarmatians? 
I think so, Sarmatians are located on the very spot of above Black sea, that is from opposite side of Black sea compared to settlement in Paphlagonia that was attested in writings of Strabo...... 


Let us now consider I haplogroup being Germanic people



> Old High German Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic *Venétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *Venetós. Etymologically related words include Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) *'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family';* Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine *'Friend'* (Pokorny 1959: 1146 - 1147; Steinacher 2002: 33)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now see Veneti in Britanny



isn't that an island of I2a1 (M26) right there exactly where Veneti are? Can it be coincidence? 

1) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Sarmatians and Vistula Veneti were either Sarmatian tribe or there was Sarmatian Veneti tribe as well or both
2) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Adriatic Veneti, 
3) hotspot of frequency of I2a1 correlates position of Britanny Veneti
4) historically attested presence in Paphlagonia correlates with increased variance in area where is almost no frequency...

can it be coincidence?
No way!!
Now, let us try to figure out I2a2-Dinaric-North and I2a2Dinaric-South

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## how yes no 2

actually, high variance of I2a2 in Asia minor can also be due to Otoman empire who took away children from parents from all over Balkan and made them turkish soldiers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
also many native people of Balkan who have converted to islam during Ottoman rule, have moved to Turkey after break down of Ottoman empire.. and I think they did settle mostly in the area nearest to Europe - around Istanbul

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## how yes no 2

clusterisation of samples 

from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb





> In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: *central Anatolia* (cluster *5*) and *central Hungary* (cluster *14*). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) *Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine*: cluster *18*; (2) continental *Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia*: cluster *2*. Cluster *13* was assigned to *Albania and* to the *western area of the Balkans* and cluster *11* to the *Caucasus*.


cluster 18 - Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine

cluster 18 groups with cluster 10 (?hard to say what is it - colour on map could be either Moldavia, and east Romania, or central-west Anatolia or part of Caucasus)
than those 2 clusters group with clusters 13 (Albania) and 5 (central Anatolia)

to me this seems to be in proof of Sarmatian-Veneti tribes originating from Paphlagonia, and Albanians as well originating from Asia minor perhaps via genetical origin from Dardani tribe...

in fact I wonder whether name Sarmatians is derived from earlier Cimmerians..
to find out more about this likely relationship please go to the forum thread about Sarmatians
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070

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## Shetop

how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.

Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.

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## how yes no 2

> how yes no, please stop confusing people.
> Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.
> Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
> Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
> Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.


based on what? on your assumptions?
I explained my assumptions...so please explain your assumptions, so that I can try to prove you wrong.... as for proving me wrong, I do not see any argument in your lines above...

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## Shetop

Should we expect that Veneto in Italy has the highest frequency of I2a2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto

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## how yes no 2

> Should we expect that Veneto in Italy has the highest frequency of I2a2?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto


not highest because there were quite some settlements and movements of people there ...
but yes, Veneto province is part of north east Italy that has 9.4% of it... look at
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
and keep in mind that what we now call I2a2 was I2a1* there (well, look at values for Croatia, Bosnia...)
note that area also has 12% of G2a and 9%of I1 and 10.4% of R1a1

In fact, high G2a reminds on apparent connection of G2a and I2a2 in Sarmatians (Sarmatian Alani being G2a and the rest I would say mostly I2a2 dominant). Also high R1a is interesting... I1 typically is also present where I2a2 is, however in northeast Italy it can be mostly due to Goths, but still some part is probably older than germanic tribes that settled there and nearby during the fall of Roman empire...





> *Venetian* or Venetan is a Romance language spoken as native language by over two million people,[1] mostly in the Veneto region of Italy, where of five million inhabitants almost all can understand it. It is sometime spoken and often well understood outside Veneto, in Trentino, Friuli, Venezia Giulia, Istria and some towns of Dalmatia, an area of six to seven million people. The language is called vèneto or vènet in Venetian, veneto in Italian; the variant spoken in Venice is called venexiàn/venesiàn or veneziano, respectively. *Although referred to as an Italian dialect* (diałeto dialetto) even by its speakers, like other Italian dialects *it is a sister language of the national language, not a variety or derivative of it*. Venetan (and Venetian proper, the language of Venice) *display notable structural and lexical differences from Italian*. Typologically, Venetan belongs only partly to the Northern Italian group within Romance languages.
> *Neither Venetan nor Venetian should be confused with Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language that was spoken in the Veneto region around the 6th century BC.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language

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## Shetop

> not highest because there were quite some settlements and movements of people there ...


Can you explain what settlements and movements?

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## Shetop

> but yes, Veneto province is part of north east Italy that has 9.4% of it... look at
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title


Btw, these results are for Trento province (not Veneto).

North Italy as a whole has frequency of 1% for I2a2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/

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## how yes no 2

> Can you explain what settlements and movements?


sure, I can...
celtic Boii brought R1b in area , which is still like 50% of genetic material of northeast Italy...


roman empire expansion did obviously bring some genetic material from southern parts of Italy...because they had to conquer and control that area before it was completely assimilated... they probably brought some of J2a (13.5% in total of today's gene pool)


after the fall of roman empire, germanic tribes settled bringing some I1 haplogroups and also some additional R1b
 



> The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths



> In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons[50]) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy due to their expulsion from Pannonia by Avars.





> The whole Lombard territory was divided into 36 duchies, whose leaders settled in the main cities. The king ruled over them and administered the land through emissaries called gastaldi. This subdivision, however, together with the independent indocility of the duchies, deprived the kingdom of unity, making it weak even when compared to the Byzantines, especially after they began to recover from the initial invasion. This weakness became even more evident when the Lombards had to face the increasing power of the Franks.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards


position of Lombardia province of Italy:


note that the numbers are for whole northeast Italy, while Veneto is likely to have less R1b (since center of Boii was more to the south) and less I1 (cause center of Lombards was more to the west) and as a result Veneto is likely to have more R1a and more I2a2 than data for northeast Italy shows...

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## Shetop

What I meant is that you should explain what movements and settlements caused that people in Herzegovina have 63,8% of I2a2 and those who live in Veneto most likely have less then 3% (this is my estimation from Rootsi et al study from 2004, see my previous post).

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## Shetop

> note that the numbers are for whole northeast Italy


No, your numbers are just for Trento province.

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## how yes no 2

> Btw, these results are for Trento province (not Veneto).
> 
> North Italy as a whole has frequency of 1% for I2a2:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/


North Italy perhaps has 1% (did they say where exactly samples come from?), but obviously northeast Italy (Trento) has 9,4%

Trento is imediatelly west from Veneto...In fact you have good point there



I2a2 might come from Raetic speaking people (closely related to Venetic) and Raetic is alike to alternative self-identification of Serbs, as principal Serb mediveal state was Ras/Rascia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(state))
while Serbs were in medieval history also sometimes reffered to as Rascians/Raci, which I personally think is derivative from older Thracians/Thraci...or other way around...

Is there any data for Veneto?

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## Shetop

Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?

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## Shetop

> Is there any data for Veneto?


I'm not aware of any Veneto specific data. But it is not that hard to calculate some kind of estimation.

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## how yes no 2

> Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
> What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?


I2a2 was assimilated into Celtic and Roman people...
they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths) but I do think there was no big migration of previous inhabitants...

it is not strange phenomena... people that conquer others move... people that are weaker might move a bit to escape first wave of conquerors...but later they typically accept being subjugated and at least a part of them tend to assimilate into ruling people...

significant I2a2 in northeast Italy certainly may origin from Veneti, even if future samples from Veneto shows Veneto has none for instance...

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## how yes no 2

> I'm not aware of any Veneto specific data. But it is not that hard to calculate some kind of estimation.


nope.. it is hard...
because haplogroups in any province depend very much from founder tribes...
Veneti's sphere of influence covered Veneto... from there people that originate from them might have moved somewhat to any direction...likely to north and east escaping Celts who settled south of them, to north and east escaping Romans, and to west escaping Goths..
so, estimations will just not work...
only sampling Veneto and nearby regions can give a clue...

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## Shetop

> they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths)


But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?

It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...

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## how yes no 2

> But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?
> 
> It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...


tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...

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## Shetop

> tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...


First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.

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## Shetop

Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.

Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?

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## how yes no 2

> First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.


yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti... 

Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...

in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...

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## Shetop

> yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti... 
> Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
> Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...
> in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
> but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...


You got me there  :Smile:

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## how yes no 2

in fact, Liburnia is hotspot of G2a (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26035) same as Trento (12%) .... and this reminds me on I2a2 + G2a pattern that seems to be dominant in Sarmatians.. in fact this pattern stretches all the way to Etruscans who are also hotspot of G2a.. I would say that ancient Veneti, Etruscans (or Raseni how they call themselves), Raetians, Liburnians are a wave from Asia minor towards Adriatic coast, while Sarmatians were a wave of similar genetic content from Asia minor that initially spread around Black sea... this looks as preference for sea coast as was the case in their homeland of Paphlagonia...




> Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.
> Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?


Because Boii were the element whose tribal identity should be lost as they were invaders in land of italics... Roman empire becomes multi-national only after it had spread enough to include many nations...
as for Veneti, they might have been the same tribe as Liburnians and might have moved north giving rise to Vindelicia province... 




> Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), himself a native of the Veneti town of Patavium, claims that Trojan leader Antenor, together with a large number of Paphlagonians who had been expelled from their homeland by a revolution, migrated to the northern end of the Adriatic coast, where they later merged with indigenous people known as the Euganei.[6] However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid, the *Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti*. (A reference in *Virgil* seems to *refer to the Veneti as Liburnians*, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, i*t seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti




> The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

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## how yes no 2

perhaps some people think I try to say that Adriatic Veneti were Slavic people too... I never claimed that... being Slavic or Germanic or Celtic is cultural and linguistic issue...

what I claim is that Adriatic Veneti have common origin with Vistula Veneti and Sarmatians... and that that origin stems from Eneti & Cimmerian tribes of Asia minor...

in same time I point out that some of the tribes that were considered Illyrian might have in fact been Sarmatian tribes... like Oserites, Jazi, Serdi, Scordisci, Dalmatae.. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070

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## MOESAN

> your confusing yourself.......explain then, if the Gauls as you say in brittany called themselves Aremorici, then why or when did the Romans name them veneti?
> 
> I am not concluding anything.......i do not think these 3 veneti areas are linked to each other in any form, what proof do you have that they do entwine ?



Im' not confusing myself: let's read well: AREMORICI are not A TRIBE but a CONFEDERATION of maritime tribes, VENETI of West were members of it, apparently, and the most mighty - I was just speaking about the weak possibility to call a people (in or out) with a colour name TO LINK IT TO A NATURAL ELEMENT: "close to the sea" or " of the mountain" can have sense, "blue like the sea" or "white as the mountain snow" would be less evident... and apparently the other Celts accepted this name of VENETI in their dialects, what would be surprising if it was ONLY A LATIN EXONYM -
that said I never speak about any other point in my post to you - I don' entwine anything here -

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## Sile

> Im' not confusing myself: let's read well: AREMORICI are not A TRIBE but a CONFEDERATION of maritime tribes, VENETI of West were members of it, apparently, and the most mighty - I was just speaking about the weak possibility to call a people (in or out) with a colour name TO LINK IT TO A NATURAL ELEMENT: "close to the sea" or " of the mountain" can have sense, "blue like the sea" or "white as the mountain snow" would be less evident... and apparently the other Celts accepted this name of VENETI in their dialects, what would be surprising if it was ONLY A LATIN EXONYM -
> that said I never speak about any other point in my post to you - I don' entwine anything here -


well, there are other meanings..........but the venet did not call themselves veneti

*This book proposes that the date of disbursement and migration, along with
historical and DNA evidence, indicates Tribe R-L513 is what the Romans called the Veneti tribe
(the “V” is pronounced as a “W”). The Latin word Venetia means “Blessed” and is, according
to Romans, what this tribe called itself. Through these pages this author will link the Veneti with
R-L513. Julius Caesar defeated this Celtic tribe in 56 BC and drove them out of continental
Europe but that was just the beginning of their story – and perhaps your history.
All our written knowledge of the Veneti comes from Romans who, seeing them as a road block
to their conquest of Britain, did everything they could to eradicate their existence from the Earth.
To Romans the Blessed must have seemed like a fitting name, given their degree of success. In
60 BC, Romans put the Veneti population around 60,000 to 100,000 living on the north-west
coast of Europe. “Blessed” in their own language is Bennozh. A thousand years later
inhabitants will call this land “Breizh” or in English – Brittany. At this time they are at their
height of influence and power. The Veneti are successful and prosperous which put them square
in the sights of Rome.
If R1b-L513 is the Veneti tribe of Brittany, they were distinctive from other Celtic tribes as they
were defined by sea and not land. Most Celts involved in trade built roads. Veneti focus on
building ships and dominating sea trade. According to Romans, Veneti built the best ships in the
world which were most suitable for North Atlantic ocean voyages.

**In 57 BC, the Celts on the Atlantic coast are warned by Rome to submit to Caesar’s authority as
governor and “protector of the Gauls” or face war. The seven Gaul, or Celtic tribes of Brittany
have yet to agree. Representatives of each of the tribes: Osismi, Armoricani, Unelli, Redones,
Namnetes, Curiosolitae are in Darioritum, the Veneti capital city to see how their Senate will
vote. It is known Veneti has a Senate because Caesar later writes of him destroying it.
As Veneti are the most powerful tribe in Brittany

There is also a German branch of R1b-L513 [suspect Subgroup N] from the village Amber. The
Veneti controlled amber trade with the main area of operation located at a settlement called
Amber, down the river Elbe in Germany. Its location intersected two supply road routes: one
from the Baltic Sea and another from North Sea coasts where they discovered amber. Amber
would have similar value and purpose as diamonds do today. The location allowed ships to
come right to the settlement to load polished amber jewelry collected from both sea coasts,
saving two separate sea trips.
With a decisive Roman victory over the main tribe in Brittany in 56 BC, the Veneti settlement in
Amber or Ambur or Hamburg, Germany would have been totally cut off from other subgroups

.................................................. .................................................. .

*what Piero is supporting....i think
The previously held view that the Venedic peoples were Illyrians,Wends,or Slavs 
has been adeguately dispelled by linguistic research. 
Their identity as Italic speakers has been widely accepted by linguists 
who have adressed themselves to problems of the Venetic language 

 The fact that Venetic has been shown to contain both Italic and German isoglosses
is significant if the Venedi and Veneti are cultuarally the same and migrated from north-central
Europe to the shores of the Adriatic

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## Sile

the russian review

http://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstre...pdf?sequence=1

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## Sile

https://www.uni-marburg.de/fb06/archaeologie/ab1.pdf

veneti are phoenicians ?!

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## MOESAN

> the russian review
> 
> http://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstre...pdf?sequence=1


_

Don't take this personal remark for you, but I think we are wasting time with this Gvozdanovic hypothesis - I already explained the phonetic peculiarities of the today 'vannetais' ('gwenedeg') dialect are far less striking than the Oil french phonetics so if the palatalizing facts putten as proves had some worth, the linguistical argument ought to be applied to all Gaul or almost, and we need no more distorsion of the poor 'veneti' name origin to explain this surprising theory - all Gauls were Veneti brethren then and all of them amber traders (at least all the tribes near the sea)...???
to go further on, I see yet NO PROOF of Veneti AS AN EXONYM - and 'bennozh' is a modern word in breton ('bennoh' in vannetais) and came surely from a loan on latin : welsh 'bendith' so close to 'benedict-us' for "blessed" - contrary to what is said in the little text, 'venet' does not mean 'blessed' in latine BUT the explanation OF THE CONFUSION could be that 'blessed' is rendered also by 'gwenn' in breton (by semantic picture: "white" >> "pure" >> "blessed") BUT 'gwenn' come from 'vindo' not from 'venet-'
I think someones write a lot of things based upon a too superficial study of facts (look at the theory linking Phoenicians and Veneti, already dismissed by a lot of people here, Taranis and me among them - 
I repeat : making hypothesis is good and necessary very often, but proofs are required before becoming too affirmative - 
&: I 'm amazed that someone could affirm that Veneti were Y-R1b-L513: have we found a lot of ancient Veneti DNA??? If true I ignored it!

good evening

_

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## MOESAN

Veneti were the most famous of the maritime tribes in gaul but I think all the tribes of the Atlantic façade had some maritime skills I put on the account of the precedent Megalithic populations which were not destroyed but rather assimilated by the Celts - I red somewhere Romans had had some of their ships built on the W-Gaul coasts (by the Pictons) before fighting against the Veneti - to verify -

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## MOESAN

> https://www.uni-marburg.de/fb06/archaeologie/ab1.pdf
> 
> veneti are phoenicians ?!


I don't know what use you intent to do with these short abstracts? just for information?
I think sometimes in Phoenicians position in W-Europe but I have not the knowledeg in archeology to make my opinion, except i discard the link between the names PHOENICI AND VENETI -
that said, for DNA, if we search a trace of them, it would be surprisingly not so in Andalusia but in galicia: Galicians, mixed with influences of other places, show a strong enough "semitic" impact in* some* of their Y-E1b and Y-J2, subhaplogroups linked rather with the Sinai and surroundings than to North-Africa or Anatolia-Caucasus (it's true I rely here on old surveys without too deep "resolution")

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## Taranis

> Veneti were the most famous of the maritime tribes in gaul but I think all the tribes of the Atlantic façade had some maritime skills I put on the account of the precedent Megalithic populations which were not destroyed but rather assimilated by the Celts - I red somewhere Romans had had some of their ships built on the W-Gaul coasts (by the Pictons) before fighting against the Veneti - to verify -


I would like to say that I agree with you here: I find the claim that Celts supposedly had no maritime tradition quite absurd in the face that 1) how did the Irish get to Ireland and the Britons to Britain if both were speakers of Celtic languages, and Ireland and Britain are... you know... islands.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I would also agree that probably the maritime traditions of the Atlantic seaboard date back to Megalithic times, and predate the introduction of Celtic languages in the seaboard.




> https://www.uni-marburg.de/fb06/archaeologie/ab1.pdf
> 
> veneti are phoenicians ?!


That is absurd. First off, the name "Phoenicians" is an exonym (from Greek), and the Phoenicians probably refered to themselves as something akin to "_Kana'anīm_" ("Cana'anites", the same as the old testament land of _Cana'an_, which was the Hebrew name for Phoenicia). Secondly, Phoenician was beyond a doubt a Semitic language (closely related with Hebrew), while the Gaulish Veneti were beyond any doubt Celtic. The main town of the Gaulish Veneti was "Darioritum", with the *ritu- element being a cognate with Welsh "rhyd" (meaning 'ford' ) - also related Latin "porta", English "ford", German "Furt" - as in "Frankfurt" and "Oxford").

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## Sile

> The main town of the Gaulish Veneti was "Darioritum", with the *ritu- element being a cognate with Welsh "rhyd" (meaning 'ford' ) - also related Latin "porta", English "ford", German "Furt" - as in "Frankfurt" and "Oxford").


This is ludicrous,
Latin term of Porta does not mean fort/ford.......it means entrance or gate........or are you trying to mean a passage which is Portus in Latin :Disappointed:  

*Origin of ford
*
*Middle English ; from Old English akin to German furt ; from Indo-European pṛtu, passage ; from base an unverified form per-, to transport from source fare, Classical Latin portus, Gothic an unverified form faran*

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## Sile

> _
> 
> Don't take this personal remark for you, but I think we are wasting time with this Gvozdanovic hypothesis - I already explained the phonetic peculiarities of the today 'vannetais' ('gwenedeg') dialect are far less striking than the Oil french phonetics so if the palatalizing facts putten as proves had some worth, the linguistical argument ought to be applied to all Gaul or almost, and we need no more distorsion of the poor 'veneti' name origin to explain this surprising theory - all Gauls were Veneti brethren then and all of them amber traders (at least all the tribes near the sea)...???
> to go further on, I see yet NO PROOF of Veneti AS AN EXONYM - and 'bennozh' is a modern word in breton ('bennoh' in vannetais) and came surely from a loan on latin : welsh 'bendith' so close to 'benedict-us' for "blessed" - contrary to what is said in the little text, 'venet' does not mean 'blessed' in latine BUT the explanation OF THE CONFUSION could be that 'blessed' is rendered also by 'gwenn' in breton (by semantic picture: "white" >> "pure" >> "blessed") BUT 'gwenn' come from 'vindo' not from 'venet-'
> I think someones write a lot of things based upon a too superficial study of facts (look at the theory linking Phoenicians and Veneti, already dismissed by a lot of people here, Taranis and me among them - 
> I repeat : making hypothesis is good and necessary very often, but proofs are required before becoming too affirmative - 
> &: I 'm amazed that someone could affirm that Veneti were Y-R1b-L513: have we found a lot of ancient Veneti DNA??? If true I ignored it!
> 
> good evening
> ...


it would seem this person has found a link between the brittany veneti and their L513 marker with an amber trail which is germanic and their L513 marker ..then again, amber went to the adriatic from 2 sources, from the Aestii on the baltic sea and from jutland

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## Taranis

> This is ludicrous,
> Latin term of Porta does not mean fort/ford.......it means entrance or gate........or are you trying to mean a passage which is Portus in Latin 
> 
> Origin of ford
> 
> Middle English ; from Old English akin to German _furt_ ; from Indo-European _pṛtu_, passage ; from base an unverified form _per-_, to transport from source fare, Classical Latin _portus_, Gothic an unverified form _faran_


It is not ludicrous in the slightest. Please, read my previous post closely, because nowhere I stated that 'porta' actually meant 'ford'. It is, however, clearly the Latin cognate to the Celtic _*ritu-_ and Germanic _*furd-_




> The main town of the Gaulish Veneti was "Darioritum", with the *ritu- element being a cognate with Welsh "rhyd" (meaning 'ford' ) - *also related Latin "porta"*, English "ford", German "Furt" - as in "Frankfurt" and "Oxford").

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## Sile

> It is not ludicrous in the slightest. Please, read my previous post closely, because nowhere I stated that 'porta' actually meant 'ford'. It is, however, clearly the Latin cognate to the Celtic _*ritu-_ and Germanic _*furd-_


yes you did and Porta is wrong for meaning a ford, the latin term is Portus.

Porta and portus , both Latin terms have different meanings, they are not related.

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## piero

*The Tribe Within*
*Search for DNA Tribe R1b-L513*
*By Anthony Murphy Barrett*
*Copyright — January 2014 — Updated April 2014 — Anthony Murphy Barrett*
*Version: 1.1*
*Smashwords Edition

*
Ptolemy says
they settled in both Scotland and Ireland. He states what he calls the Vennicnii tribe (formerly
Veneti) is now located in Donegal, Ireland. He also places Venicones (formerly Veneti) in east
Scotland close to where Edinburgh is now. 
It is odd, modern historians telling Veneti’s story do not include Ptolemy’s findings of tribal
survivors settling in Scotland and Ireland. Historians seem to end the Veneti story in Brittany
thereby discouraging further exploration about this tribe.

It was only Ptolemy in his
book _Geography_ which connects Veneti to geographical locations which supports historical and
DNA evidence of R-L513 surnames in the same geographic location in Ireland and Scotland.

Ptolemy’s book not only brings Veneti back to life, but connects a highly mobile Celtic tribe
with a violent, catastrophic past which now lines them up for a somewhat foreseeable future.


There is also a German branch of R1b-L513 [suspect Subgroup N] from the village Amber. The
Veneti controlled amber trade with the main area of operation located at a settlement called
Amber, down the river Elbe in Germany.

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## Taranis

> Ptolemy says
> they settled in both Scotland and Ireland. He states what he calls the Vennicnii tribe (formerly
> Veneti) is now located in Donegal, Ireland. He also places Venicones (formerly Veneti) in east
> Scotland close to where Edinburgh is now. 
> It is odd, modern historians telling Veneti’s story do not include Ptolemy’s findings of tribal
> survivors settling in Scotland and Ireland. Historians seem to end the Veneti story in Brittany
> thereby discouraging further exploration about this tribe.
> 
> It was only Ptolemy in his
> ...


No offense, but this is really absurd now, because you are again (or your source is, I can't tell here) magically dismantling ethnic names because they sound superficially like the name "Veneti", and extrapolate the existence of a mythical Venetic maritime "empire". About the name "Venicones", because according to Katherine Forsyth ('The language in Pictland', 1997), the Venicones are even found in the Welsh Gododdin (as "Maen Gwyngun"), and the name can be explained as "Utterly Celtic" (I'm quoting Forsyth there!), namely as "kindred hounds".

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## piero

Please, I miss a Veneti-like people name in Syria from Hittite source. Anyone remember it? I think the name is listed by a French author.

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## Taranis

> He states what he calls the Vennicnii tribe (formerly
> Veneti) is now located in Donegal, Ireland.


I'm pretty sure that the Irish name "Vennicnii" (Ουεννικνιοι) are related with the later term "fían" ('warrior band'). As I said, what you're doing here is you ignore the languages people in the specific areas are known to have spoken (like Irish in Ireland, Brythonic in Britain, Gaulish in Gaul), and focus on the superficial similarities of the name.




> Please, I miss a Veneti-like people name in Syria from Hittite source. Anyone remember it? I think the name is listed by a French author.


_Syria_, too?  :Rolleyes:  What's next, "_Veneti_" in Mayan or Aztec sources?

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## piero

> _Syria_, too?  What's next, "_Veneti_" in Mayan or Aztec sources?


archeogenetica..Z92.Lusazia.jpg
As you can see on the map, Z92 spread also in the area of Lake Van, that is in the border with Syria.

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## MOESAN

> it would seem this person has found a link between the brittany veneti and their L513 marker with an amber trail which is germanic and their L513 marker ..then again, amber went to the adriatic from 2 sources, from the Aestii on the baltic sea and from jutland


What I would have is the percentage of R-L513 found here and there, before making any hazardous statement... because today I never heard speaking of a study showing this marker, either in today Brittany population or among ancient Atlantic Veneti (if ever any DNA of these last ones has been extracted) - otherwise we are sepaking of WIND...

aside that:
the %s given by Maciamo concerning Galicia doesn'tconfirm the high levels of Y-J2 I found in the survey I mentioned -

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## Sile

> What I would have is the percentage of R-L513 found here and there, before making any hazardous statement... because today I never heard speaking of a study showing this marker, either in today Brittany population or among ancient Atlantic Veneti (if ever any DNA of these last ones has been extracted) - otherwise we are sepaking of WIND...
> 
> aside that:
> the %s given by Maciamo concerning Galicia doesn'tconfirm the high levels of Y-J2 I found in the survey I mentioned -


there is a strong presence of T in galicia............but zero in brittany....there cannot be any link

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## Sile

> What I would have is the percentage of R-L513 found here and there, before making any hazardous statement... because today I never heard speaking of a study showing this marker, either in today Brittany population or among ancient Atlantic Veneti (if ever any DNA of these last ones has been extracted) - otherwise we are sepaking of WIND...
> 
> aside that:
> the %s given by Maciamo concerning Galicia doesn'tconfirm the high levels of Y-J2 I found in the survey I mentioned -


you need to read the discussion the L513 and its downstrean L193 is NW french from at least 500BC, people are trying to say its norman, but its already proved the L513 is older than norman. it is found in NW france, cornwall, ireland and southern wales

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## MOESAN

> there is a strong presence of T in galicia............but zero in brittany....there cannot be any link



_
apparently I was no clear enough:
__I spoke of Galicians concerning a possible link with Phoenicians, genetically, all the way possible but not sure, because some forumer spoke about Phoenicians and Veneti - no link with the core of the discussion about L513, Veneti and Cy...its just a point without any global theory of mine concerning Galicia and Phoenicians - 
_

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## Sile

> _
> apparently I was no clear enough:
> __I spoke of Galicians concerning a possible link with Phoenicians, genetically, all the way possible but not sure, because some forumer spoke about Phoenicians and Veneti - no link with the core of the discussion about L513, Veneti and Cy...its just a point without any global theory of mine concerning Galicia and Phoenicians - 
> _


But you already would know the phoenicans where trading through the brittany veneti for welsh and cornish tin. 

As posted before, the phoenicians also tried to establish a foothold on ireland and cornwall with minimum success. it seems that the veneti became the only ones who could reach wales and ireland in those strong winds as they where the only people to use leather sails. likely scenario is that the phoenians had a trade agreement with the veneti in vannes or the veneti sailed to galicia to trade with the phoenicians

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## MOESAN

> there is a strong presence of T in galicia............but zero in brittany....there cannot be any link



_
apparently I was no clear enough:
__I spoke of Galicians concerning a possible link with Phoenicians, genetically, all the way possible but not sure, because some forumer spoke about Phoenicians and Veneti - no link with the core of the discussion about L513, Veneti and Cy...its just a point without any global theory of mine concerning Galicia and Phoenicians - 
_

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## MOESAN

> archeogenetica..Z92.Lusazia.jpg
> As you can see on the map, Z92 spread also in the area of Lake Van, that is in the border with Syria.


 - 




Here we are no more with Y-R1b (L513 or not) but with Y-R1a - and the map shows a gravity center in East slavic lands - 
by lack of chance the ENETI area in N-Anatolia lacks completely of this Z92 - what are the different links? I'm confused

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## MOESAN

> you need to read the discussion the L513 and its downstrean L193 is NW french from at least 500BC, people are trying to say its norman, but its already proved the L513 is older than norman. it is found in NW france, cornwall, ireland and southern wales


_
this L513 seems very close in time to Y-R1b-L21 typical of the Isles and Brittany so it is not so informative - its distribution spite the biases of genalogy seems at first Scottish and Irish, but common among Atlantic Celts as a whole - I don't see what very special and peculiar we can base upon this SNP??? 
I agree its birth has nothig to do with Normans - by the way it is absent in South France and South of it, and absent East germany on the continent (someones in Sweden) -
nothing to link it to this very thread (Veneti as an extent maritime people overspanning all Europe and more) except the celtic ones, in fine...


concerning Phoenicians I knew (to be more precise: I red! as you) they did trade in the Isles and in Brittany - it doesn't link their ethny to the Veneti's one - I spoke about them because I have some headache when I red unbased linguistic links made by some people - I hope you or somebody else are not giving birth to a new thesis where Phoenicians and Veneti are two branches of the same close family? in this thread I don't know what is coming next time about Veneti, Wendes, Amber, rambling ancestor, Van lake, R1b-R1a... sure I'm growing too old!_

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## Sile

> _
> this L513 seems very close in time to Y-R1b-L21 typical of the Isles and Brittany so it is not so informative - its distribution spite the biases of genalogy seems at first Scottish and Irish, but common among Atlantic Celts as a whole - I don't see what very special and peculiar we can base upon this SNP??? 
> I agree its birth has nothig to do with Normans - by the way it is absent in South France and South of it, and absent East germany on the continent (someones in Sweden) -
> nothing to link it to this very thread (Veneti as an extent maritime people overspanning all Europe and more) except the celtic ones, in fine...
> 
> 
> concerning Phoenicians I knew (to be more precise: I red! as you) they did trade in the Isles and in Brittany - it doesn't link their ethny to the Veneti's one - I spoke about them because I have some headache when I red unbased linguistic links made by some people - I hope you or somebody else are not giving birth to a new thesis where Phoenicians and Veneti are two branches of the same close family? in this thread I don't know what is coming next time about Veneti, Wendes, Amber, rambling ancestor, Van lake, R1b-R1a... sure I'm growing too old!_


to make it clear, I do not believe any of the veneti/venedi are linked to each other regardless if strabo or tacitus says so

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## piero

Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.

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## MOESAN

> Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.


_sorry, but the mosaic you speak of is not decided by hazard: it needs some common life in a common place - Western Europe has some specific Y-R1a subclades - is the Z92 one of these specific ones, compared to other Y-R1a in West, rarer? because R1b-L21, is very western as center of gravity... you could also tell me the Veneti has a typical Y-J1 or J2 haplo??? based on what???
some surprises can occur in History, but to base an opinion only on unevident things is odd, isn't it?_

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## piero

> _sorry, but the mosaic you speak of is not decided by hazard: it needs some common life in a common place - Western Europe has some specific Y-R1a subclades - is the Z92 one of these specific ones, compared to other Y-R1a in West, rarer? because R1b-L21, is very western as center of gravity... you could also tell me the Veneti has a typical Y-J1 or J2 haplo??? based on what???
> some surprises can occur in History, but to base an opinion only on unevident things is odd, isn't it?_


Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map  :Smiling:  (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)
mappa.Z92.jpg

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## Sile

> Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map  (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)
> mappa.Z92.jpg


map is full screen for me

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## Taranis

> Each people has an haplogroups pattern that is like a mosaic, so is not strange if Atlantic Veneti has both L513 and Z92. There is no mistake in its association.


Do you have any DNA samples from any one of these ancient Veneti ethnic groups to back up your hypothesis? I don't think so. Association does not automatically mean that they have to be connected, and the only evidence you have, if I may summarize your idea, you extrapolate the existence fo a "Venetic" maritime empire based on the association of an y-chromosomal haplogroup with (anachronistic) attestation of peoples that are either named "Veneti" (or vaguely similar to the name "Veneti", and in these cases you have demonstrated that you are dismissive of other, more probable etymologies), and you have no linguistic evidence other than that. No offense, but surely that is an extremely weak association.

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## Sile

> Do you have any DNA samples from any one of these ancient Veneti ethnic groups to back up your hypothesis? I don't think so. Association does not automatically mean that they have to be connected, and the only evidence you have, if I may summarize your idea, you extrapolate the existence fo a "Venetic" maritime empire based on the association of an y-chromosomal haplogroup with (anachronistic) attestation of peoples that are either named "Veneti" (or vaguely similar to the name "Veneti", and in these cases you have demonstrated that you are dismissive of other, more probable etymologies), and you have no linguistic evidence other than that. No offense, but surely that is an extremely weak association.


the only ancient veneti markers I found are
ydna = I1b ...............not the I1b2 branch, which IIRC is also in basque and sardinian lands
mtdna = T2

with T2 still over 12% higher than any other parts in italy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/
the ertruscan paper below says something on the "border" town od Adria ( shared with Veneti , which I doubt)


piero will also be getting information from below
http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Av...10_Origins.pdf

where one theory is a lusatian theory

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## piero

> the only ancient veneti markers I found are
> ydna = I1b ...............not the I1b2 branch, which IIRC is also in basque and sardinian lands
> mtdna = T2
> 
> with T2 still over 12% higher than any other parts in italy
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181945/
> the ertruscan paper below says something on the "border" town od Adria ( shared with Veneti , which I doubt)
> 
> ...


In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/...-depopulation/

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## Sile

> In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
> Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/...-depopulation/


yes that for I1b and t2 mtdna is maciano numbers on italian regional haplogroup tread plus 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....6520153.x/pdf

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## MOESAN

> Yes, Z92 branch is specific for Brittany, despite rare. Look at the map  (Please, a technical question: how can I enlarge my pics posted?)
> mappa.Z92.jpg


thanks for the map but we saw it before!
a very curious map : with tribes names added as Wendi, Vendi in far enough places (I think here in the northeastmost ones) - 
a spot in West, just in tHe middle of the Channel: a drown ancient pLace? or Jersey Guernesey? (isles settled by Celts and *Normans of at least partial Viking ancestry*) or an attempt to show a common "micro-spot" shared by people of Brittany and S-W England of today??? could you tell me in what survey you found traces of this specific R1a-RZ92 in Brittany? _(what doesn't prove it was there at old Veneti times_ - 
what would have some value would be common Y-SNPs in the 3 supposed centers of Veneti TODAY al least and, better, AT THE TIMES IN DISCUSSION
I see the name: SLOVENSKA/ is somebody thinking the VEN of SLOVENSKA could have something in common with the so exploited radical VEN of VENETI?? SLOV-EN-SKA

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## Sile

> thanks for the map but we saw it before!
> a very curious map : with tribes names added as Wendi, Vendi in far enough places (I think here in the northeastmost ones) - 
> a spot in West, just in tHe middle of the Channel: a drown ancient pLace? or Jersey Guernesey? (isles settled by Celts and *Normans of at least partial Viking ancestry*) or an attempt to show a common "micro-spot" shared by people of Brittany and S-W England of today??? could you tell me in what survey you found traces of this specific R1a-RZ92 in Brittany? _(what doesn't prove it was there at old Veneti times_ - 
> what would have some value would be common Y-SNPs in the 3 supposed centers of Veneti TODAY al least and, better, AT THE TIMES IN DISCUSSION
> I see the name: SLOVENSKA/ is somebody thinking the VEN of SLOVENSKA could have something in common with the so exploited radical VEN of VENETI?? SLOV-EN-SKA


maybe you need to check my second link on post 307 ....between pages 112 and 122 to find any brittany names which claim veneti descent..........but then again, they will be modern examples

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## Sile

> In the Prof. Carrera text you share I was quoted as Piero Favero for his exceptional guidance and insight about the ancient Venets but I was disappointed because the staff - despite having DNA haplogroup testing available - they did NOTHING with this tests. So no scientific article was outcome of this theorical study.
> Please, do you have time range of mtdna T2 and ydna I1b? Did they match Lusatian culture? (1300-500 b. c.) https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/...-depopulation/


there is DNA results in the paper .............34 born and bred in venice, and the other 122 born and bred in the veneto

IIRC page 122


the 2005 report was inconclusive.........a new one was done by natgeno which also included the 2005 sample in 2010.
the 2011 report for the 2010 tests........ states that the STR of these 156 Veneti tests match ............for every 4 matches with northern anatolia, there is 1 match for lusatian/baltic and zero for brittany and wales.

It also states, that the STR match western-indian samples as well as southern german samples

Go ask Natgeno for the spreadsheet that hold the data

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## Sile

venice Dna 2005-2010

163 samples of which 7 where discarded leaves 156. 
3 generations plus on both sides of family and sampler had to be over 18 years of age.



STR done on samples reveals

see below





I cannot get natgeno spreadsheet, but maybe pierro can


ancestrals STR match south side of danube river in germany and from Gujarat india

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat


I think we can lay to rest a brittany or baltic association with the adriatic veneti ..........what do you think

----------


## MOESAN

> maybe you need to check my second link on post 307 ....between pages 112 and 122 to find any brittany names which claim veneti descent..........but then again, they will be modern examples



??? not understood: no precise information concerning Veneti of Aremorica linked to present thread
thanks nevertheless

----------


## Sile

> ??? not understood: no precise information concerning Veneti of Aremorica linked to present thread
> thanks nevertheless


correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?

Jean Dru'ze from brittany claims he is from Veneti descent...thats the tested person ( one of ) that Nat-geno tested.
You need to correct some of these brittay people to say they are Gaulish and more likely related via cornwall and wales than with southern france or northern italy

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## MOESAN

[QUOTE=Sile;447640]correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?

Jean Dru'ze from brittany claims he is from Veneti descent...thats the tested person ( one of ) that Nat-geno tested.
You need to correct some of these brittany people 


I did not came against you I just answered making some points about facts - no problem with you - 
I agree there is no recent PROVED peculiar link (say since 2500 years) between all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) - only evident link: ancient common I-Ean origin - I say there too much people without serious knowledge affirming things without any basis - 
now, this thread is of no more interest to me except if a new serious theory arose with well based facts and not only ancient trade routes and some phonetic hazards
no offense

----------


## piero

[QUOTE=MOESAN;447844]


> correct, why you going against me if I maintain that brittany veneti are not associated with adriatic veneti?
> 
> 
> I agree there is no recent PROVED peculiar link (say since 2500 years) between all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) - only evident link: ancient common I-Ean origin - I say there too much people without serious knowledge affirming things without any basis - 
> now, this thread is of no more interest to me except if a new serious theory arose with well based facts and not only ancient trade routes and some phonetic hazards
> no offense


Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...

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## MOESAN

[QUOTE=piero;447981]


> Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...


I'm a bit surprised by the tone of your post - 
in a court of justice, it is the "demander" who has to prove the validity of the facts he evocates - here I'm like a "defender", it's not to me to prove something - I cannot DISPROVE what you say - I just say you DO NOT PROVE what you say and for me, according to common sense and historic facts, your very distorded theory is without any proof - MAYBE SOMETIME MORE SOLID FACTS AND LINKS BETWEEN THESE FACTS WILL PROVE YOU WERE RIGHT BUT TODAY IT IS NOT THE CASE - when it occurs, I shall accept without any vexation nor sadness - facts are facts - by the way, I never said these diverse Veneti have no common roots; I said that i think their roots and the subsequent separation between them are surely old enough and they lost early enough contact between them, at least concerning Brittany Veneti - 
NO OFFENSE, but please, keep cool...

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## Sile

[QUOTE=piero;447981]


> Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...


They do not genetically match each other.

The Wends are pre-germanic vandals .........*there was no Venedi in wendish lands
*
The brittany veneti people are a Gaulish and brittonic mix ....only seen in this area of france

Natgeno, confirmed , as i attached the only Genetic link is with anatolia ( pre arrival of the turkic people )

----------


## Sile

[QUOTE=piero;447981]


> Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...


@ piero

direct it at moesan.......i did not write this

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=piero;447981]


> Do you have any evidence and scientifical proof to PROVE that all these VENETI tribes (Brittany, Italy, NE Europe) have NO COMMON roots? No, you don't have any. I challenge you to find just one proof...


Moesan is correct. You can't shift the burden of proof in this way. If you are proposing a hypothesis, it is incumbent upon _you_ to provide the proof.

Let's posit, for example, to use a ridiculous analogy, that someone were to say that the moon is inhabited by little green men. It would be up to the person asserting that to prove it by empirical evidence. The fact that people can't _disprove_ it has no probative value.

It's sort of analogous to Russell''s Teapot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

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## MOESAN

[QUOTE=Sile;447996]


> @ piero
> 
> direct it at moesan.......i did not write this



ANSWER TO PIERO AND SILE AND OTHERS
there is a mess about quotes here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never write this post with this tone ("I challenge you to prove there is no proof...")
*it was a post of PIERO # 317 answering my personal answer to SILE*
after that there has been an inversion in the diverse quotings imputing the posts to the wrong person I don't know w
*THAT SAID I FIND PIERO VERY FORGETFUL / HE DOESN'T REMEMBER NOR RECOGNIZE WHAT HE WRITES, FUNNY INDEED...*

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## Regio X

> According to Boattini et al, there are at least three major groups of G2a in Italy, and they have different ages.


This is what Maciamo seems to advocate. According to him:
(...)
"Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, in the Apennine mountains (15 to 25%) and Sardinia (12%) in Italy, Cantabria (10%) and Asturias (8%) in northern Spain, Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) and Provence (7%) in south-east France, Switzerland (7.5%), the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), Romania (6.5%) and Greece (6.5%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains. For example, G2a3a (M406) is found at relatively high frequencies in the southern Balkans, the Apennines and the Alps, in contrast with G2a3b (L141.1), which is found everywhere in Europe."
(...)
"Contrarily to other branches of G2a, which are more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b (L141.1), and particularly the G2a3b1 (P303) subclade, is found uniformly throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b and its subclades are also found in eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Central Asia and throughout India, especially among the upper castes, who represent the descendants of the Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.The homeland of R1b1a (P297) and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is presumed to have been situated in eastern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 4,500 BCE.An alternative theory is that G2a3 (L30) came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe it split in two branches: G2a3a, who followed the Danube to Central Europe (LBK), and G2a3b, who migrated east to the Pontic Steppe and brought agriculture to the region. G2a3b would have mixed with the indigenous R1a people, then with R1b newcomers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a3b men (who apparently belonged overwhelmingly to G2a3b1 and its subclades) would have joined R1b-M269/L23 in the invasion of Old Europe from 4200 BCE (=> see R1b history). G2a3a would have been among the conquered populations of Old Europe, seeking refuge in mountainous areas."
(...)
"By the Iron Age, the G2a population in most of Europe had been decimated by the Indo-European invasions, followed by Celtic warfare. G2a sought refuge from the invaders in the mountains, and like today, reached maximum frequencies in Italy (Apennines, Sardinia) and in the Alps.The ancient Latins and Romans descend from the Italic tribes who invaded the Italian peninsula from 1200 BCE. They seem to have belonged primarily to haplogroup R1b-U152 (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), but to have carried a substantial minority of G2a3b (L141.1) lineages, especially the U1 and L497 subclades. The Latin homeland in central Italy is one of the hotspots for haplogroup G2a in Europe today. The high level in G2a in the Latium might be due to the dual presence of Indo-European G2a3b and of earlier Neolithic lineages who descended from the Apennines to live in Rome after being absorbed by the Roman civilisation.If the ancient Romans and other Romanised peoples from the Italian peninsula had any genetic impact on other parts of the Roman Empire (as they should have), they certainly contributed to a moderate increase of G2a lineages (in addition to R1b-U152 and J2) within the borders of the empire. Indeed, the frequency of haplogroup G decreases with the distance from the boundaries of the empire. Haplogroup G is extremely rare Nordic and Baltic countries nowadays, despite the fact that agriculture reached those regions around the same time as Britain or Ireland. Another reason could be that the forested lowlands of northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic were too poor in metals and did not have attract as many Bronze-Age workers from the Caucasus (=> see Metal-mining and stockbreeding explain R1b dominance in Atlantic fringe). Northeast Europe also has a relatively low percentage of haplogroup R1b, which further reinforces the hypothesis that the two haplogroups spread together during the Bronze Age."




> according to the paper where the stats came from , it can be bronze-age , but it did not migrate to western austria. It was formed in western austria. From there it went to areas on the adjoining map in the link.
> I am speaking about G-L497


The austrian one would not be the subgroup G-L42? Well, any way, G-L497 would be coming from caucasian G-P303, which are present in almost 90% of shapsugs. It reached even India. This is consistent with a more recent expansion of some G2a branches.

----------


## Sile

> This is what Maciamo seems to advocate. According to him:
> (...)
> "Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, in the Apennine mountains (15 to 25%) and Sardinia (12%) in Italy, Cantabria (10%) and Asturias (8%) in northern Spain, Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) and Provence (7%) in south-east France, Switzerland (7.5%), the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), Romania (6.5%) and Greece (6.5%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains. For example, G2a3a (M406) is found at relatively high frequencies in the southern Balkans, the Apennines and the Alps, in contrast with G2a3b (L141.1), which is found everywhere in Europe."
> (...)
> "Contrarily to other branches of G2a, which are more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b (L141.1), and particularly the G2a3b1 (P303) subclade, is found uniformly throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b and its subclades are also found in eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Central Asia and throughout India, especially among the upper castes, who represent the descendants of the Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.The homeland of R1b1a (P297) and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is presumed to have been situated in eastern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 4,500 BCE.An alternative theory is that G2a3 (L30) came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe it split in two branches: G2a3a, who followed the Danube to Central Europe (LBK), and G2a3b, who migrated east to the Pontic Steppe and brought agriculture to the region. G2a3b would have mixed with the indigenous R1a people, then with R1b newcomers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a3b men (who apparently belonged overwhelmingly to G2a3b1 and its subclades) would have joined R1b-M269/L23 in the invasion of Old Europe from 4200 BCE (=> see R1b history). G2a3a would have been among the conquered populations of Old Europe, seeking refuge in mountainous areas."
> (...)
> "By the Iron Age, the G2a population in most of Europe had been decimated by the Indo-European invasions, followed by Celtic warfare. G2a sought refuge from the invaders in the mountains, and like today, reached maximum frequencies in Italy (Apennines, Sardinia) and in the Alps.The ancient Latins and Romans descend from the Italic tribes who invaded the Italian peninsula from 1200 BCE. They seem to have belonged primarily to haplogroup R1b-U152 (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), but to have carried a substantial minority of G2a3b (L141.1) lineages, especially the U1 and L497 subclades. The Latin homeland in central Italy is one of the hotspots for haplogroup G2a in Europe today. The high level in G2a in the Latium might be due to the dual presence of Indo-European G2a3b and of earlier Neolithic lineages who descended from the Apennines to live in Rome after being absorbed by the Roman civilisation.If the ancient Romans and other Romanised peoples from the Italian peninsula had any genetic impact on other parts of the Roman Empire (as they should have), they certainly contributed to a moderate increase of G2a lineages (in addition to R1b-U152 and J2) within the borders of the empire. Indeed, the frequency of haplogroup G decreases with the distance from the boundaries of the empire. Haplogroup G is extremely rare Nordic and Baltic countries nowadays, despite the fact that agriculture reached those regions around the same time as Britain or Ireland. Another reason could be that the forested lowlands of northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic were too poor in metals and did not have attract as many Bronze-Age workers from the Caucasus (=> see Metal-mining and stockbreeding explain R1b dominance in Atlantic fringe). Northeast Europe also has a relatively low percentage of haplogroup R1b, which further reinforces the hypothesis that the two haplogroups spread together during the Bronze Age."
> 
> 
> The austrian one would not be the subgroup G-L42? Well, any way, G-L497 would be coming from caucasian G-P303, which are present in almost 90% of shapsugs. It reached even India. This is consistent with a more recent expansion of some G2a branches.


as per this 2013 paper ...G-L497 was created in the italian alps ( tyrol) . It was a rhaetic marker and also was as per the Indigenous veneti , the eugenai . It did not come from the east.

http://www.blutspendezuerich.ch/Medi...20G%282%29.pdf

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## MOESAN

I'm not sure to have well understood: Rhaetic = Veneti ??? if so, I' m very astonished by the reasonment !
by the way, a SNP is not created, it derives from an immediatly upstream SNP of same HG, by mutation

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## Sile

> I'm not sure to have well understood: Rhaetic = Veneti ??? if so, I' m very astonished by the reasonment !


no I am not saying this




> by the way, a SNP is not created, it derives from an immediatly upstream SNP of same HG, by mutation


L497 SNP mutated first in the alps is what is stated in the paper.

.................................................. .....
I will explain the veneti thing for you with a map.....it might be easier

1 - The *original indigenous people* of veneto and friuli where called the - *Euganei*
these people by recent Dna findings are similar to the Rhaeti

I used this map which represents the 3 veneti areas via linguistic and genetic similarities.....
the area in question represents the ancient areas of the Euganei *ONLY in yellow*



2- when the Veneti migrated to Veneto ( estimated by archeology to be 1200BC ) they fought the Euganei and these people fled into the alps. *SOME of the Euganei became veneti by absorbtion into veneti society*
Cato the roman historian states, the Euganei initially the 34 towns......so they seem great in number

3- the paper shows a map of G-L497 which is in rhaeti and "euganei" lands

4 - its logical if some Euganei entered Veneti society and the others entered Rhaetic society then surely as the paper states the genetics are similar in a great percentage of people.


OLd old papers will state the the Euganei where ligurian branch, but recent genetics have shifted them to a rhaetic branch especially since the Po river valley was inhabitable for living due to a higher water table.

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## MOESAN

> no I am not saying this
> 
> 
> 
> L497 SNP mutated first in the alps is what is stated in the paper.
> 
> .................................................. .....
> I will explain the veneti thing for you with a map.....it might be easier
> 
> ...



_thanks for the map AND EXPLANATIONS >> so things are a bit clearer to me -
concerning Ligurians I thin hey had more weight in Western half of Italy, (N-W and W- center) - mybe had they some cousins in SOuth even in Sicilia - I suppose they had a strong enough imput of Y-R1b-U152, mixed with older Y-HGs - 
question: have you some data about today Y-G-L497 distribution in Eurasia IF POSSIBLE COMPARED TO OTHER Y-G ?
_

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## Sile

> _
> question: have you some data about today Y-G-L497 distribution in Eurasia IF POSSIBLE COMPARED TO OTHER Y-G ?
> _


it is in the recent link ..........the austrian paper on G ...see the bottom of the paper

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## slavisa777

Hello, I am new here. I must say interesting forum and subjects. 
Anyway, I have a question, and am sorry if it is somewhat distant. 
Any of u with thinking on a amber trade map from Gimbutas, (still can't post links, but if u google - Основные пути торговли янтарем - result is seen in google images...) a route that goes along Tisza river, and in the direction to the question mark. 
It's supposed to go across the Balkan about 1400. BC. Was wandering on any importance of this route around the time of Tacitus and up to the 7c.

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## piero

> I'm a bit surprised by the tone of your post - 
> in a court of justice, it is the "demander" who has to prove the validity of the facts he evocates - here I'm like a "defender", it's not to me to prove something - I cannot DISPROVE what you say - I just say you DO NOT PROVE what you say and for me, according to common sense and historic facts, your very distorded theory is without any proof - MAYBE SOMETIME MORE SOLID FACTS AND LINKS BETWEEN THESE FACTS WILL PROVE YOU WERE RIGHT BUT TODAY IT IS NOT THE CASE - when it occurs, I shall accept without any vexation nor sadness - facts are facts - by the way, I never said these diverse Veneti have no common roots; I said that i think their roots and the subsequent separation between them are surely old enough and they lost early enough contact between them, at least concerning Brittany Veneti - 
> NO OFFENSE, but please, keep cool...


MOESAN my excuses, I didn't want to be aggressive, just clear. I'm really sorry. Here in Italy our University professors are so categorical and sure that there are no links between european Veneti outside Italy borders, but I never found a prove or just a scientifically expressed theory of this Adriatic Veneti autochthony. One week ago I was to an Archaeologist conference: he was the first honest archaeologist I met and told to the public that "we don't know the origins of Veneti".

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## MOESAN

> "modern" venet from circa 780AD had a reverse of what you state, it had a X which went to a Z which ended up as S ........and it always retain the K


_Could you give me some examples of these evolutions (places and dates) - I could be interesting - thanks beforehand -_

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## Sile

> _Could you give me some examples of these evolutions (places and dates) - I could be interesting - thanks beforehand -_


here is part of a private letter to me last week from a brazilian whose ancestors where veneti, take note he still uses X , as it is also still used in veneto/fruili/trentino today.
Also note that carlo Goldini introduced the S to replace the X 

*Nostri simili rexultadi in Eurogenes sugere che el mix te cuela zona xe asè vecio.* 

rexultadi is now resultati = results ..............the x and s still retain the zed sound.
xe , is still retained in veneto script today , but the modern is ze = it is ..............the x and z still retain the zed sound


Carlo Goldini a playright changed the Venetian X into a S for ease of the other regions of italy.
so his number 10 which is Diexe became Diese ..............but italian form is Dieci

a kiss in venetian is Baxi ............still used more so than the Goldini form of Basi ...........in italian it is Baci

Venice in Venetian is Venexia, with Goldini it became Venesia....under Italy due to the zed sound of X and S, it became Venezia

To conclude, although the S was used to replace the X, they are both still used today

..............................

In venetian K is the equal to italian CH in its uses



below is a current net site....english above and venetian below

Note: intro pages are written (when not translated) in "mainland venetian" language, with the venetian unitarian graphical system, and accented by following the rules you can find on the "how-to-read" page.
*Nòda: ƚe pàxine de introdusion ƚe xé scrite in venesian de tèra-ferma oriental, in grafìa e acentàe conforme el manual de grafìa vèneta unidaria.*


and
_Please:_


 _Allow the pages to work properly.
Do not use the "reload" or "back" buttons.
Do not open pages outside of their frames.
Use the provided links on top of each page: "Serca da novo/New search" or "Home" to perform a new search in another language or for a taxon._




 _Prègo:_

 _Ƚasa che ƚe pàxine ƚe laore come previsto.
No stà doparar i botoni "recarga" o "indrìo".
No sta vèrxer pàxine fora de 'l so cuadro.
Dòpara i botoni a despoxision: "Serca da novo/New search" o "Home" par far na serca nova in altra lengua o co' altri critèri._


The dash on the L , is what is called the venetian vanishing L , it is not pronounced , only written

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## MOESAN

> MOESAN my excuses, I didn't want to be aggressive, just clear. I'm really sorry. Here in Italy our University professors are so categorical and sure that there are no links between european Veneti outside Italy borders, but I never found a prove or just a scientifically expressed theory of this Adriatic Veneti autochthony. One week ago I was to an Archaeologist conference: he was the first honest archaeologist I met and told to the public that "we don't know the origins of Veneti".


I accept your excuses, it was not necessary but it proves you are correct - by the way, my answer was a "putting in order" giving a 1-1 party result - Long ago I had swallowed your post without any damage in my body -
if you ave well red my posts, I was not creating a theory, only debusking some arguments of one or another, not because I was absolutely AGAINST a theory, but AGAINST the too quickly built hazardous theories -
my 'credo' (not a certitude) is Veneti of Italy could have been a set akin to the Veneti of Poland, a set, maybe the core, settled in a central position in Europe, and linked to the Urnfield big moves (some scholars said it was ONLY a cultural spreading, but Coon and OTHERS wrote , with the help of skeletons surveys, that if NO perceptibe new population had entered Europe at these times, Urnfield period had seen big redistributions of populations - some skeletons in central-southern France seem confirming that) -
it's based upon little, a bit of Y-R1b-U152 in Western Poland, and some archelogical artefacts linking Poland and Villanova culture - investigating some Y-R1a could be fructuous too but I've no big data for now - bu H-HUBERT said Adriatic (not by force illyric) placenames had some echoes among the few vocbulary linked to some Lusacian sites (I lack details here) - so Veneti = proto-Slavics? NOT SURE AT ALL, rather an archaic I-Ean form kept "centroïdal", and further North, a replacement or convergence of language? No cristal bowl nor hene guts by me!
noswezh vad deoc'h!

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## Sile

> Hello, I am new here. I must say interesting forum and subjects. 
> Anyway, I have a question, and am sorry if it is somewhat distant. 
> Any of u with thinking on a amber trade map from Gimbutas, (still can't post links, but if u google - Основные пути торговли янтарем - result is seen in google images...) a route that goes along Tisza river, and in the direction to the question mark. 
> It's supposed to go across the Balkan about 1400. BC. Was wandering on any importance of this route around the time of Tacitus and up to the 7c.


yes there was an amber trade from 2000BC

I suspect it was a relay trade system, the Aestii onto the Venedi onto, one the the germanic tribes onto the illyrians on the danube onto the veneti on the adriatic...........they ( veneti ) kept some for amulets for burials of the women and children ( men where cremated ) and the rest was traded onto the Phoenicians to go to egypt

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## Regio X

Quote from other thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tolian-Genomes!!!



> Now I think that J2 carriers played a important role in creating Indo European languages, greater then assumed. Usually people think that R carriers (R1a and R1b) are creators of Indo European languages. But my opinion is that J2 folks were significantly involved.


It surprises me the Y-DNA variation among provinces in Veneto: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regi...logroups.shtml (some sums exceed 100%, others are below, but ok)
If the numbers are consistent*, it would have a J2 frequency significantly bigger than its neighboring regions, and Treviso province would have a comparatively low frequency of R1b, high frequency of I1, about 45% of G+J+E+T, and incredible *10%* of *L-M20*. Where did it come from? Phoenicians? Adriatic Veneti? Anyway, the numbers seem to support a bit Homer theory on Paphlagonia.

*Maybe there are errors. For example, the Eupedia page shows 0% of L-M20 in Val Badia, Italian Tyrol, based on Capelli et al., but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20 shows 8,3 for the same local, based on Pichler and Thomas.

This L-M20 map doesn't seem very accurate, but it gives an idea of frequencies:
Attachment 7279

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## Pax Augusta

> It surprises me the Y-DNA variation among provinces in Veneto: http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regi...logroups.shtml (some sums exceed 100%, others are below, but ok)
> If the numbers are consistent*, it would have a J2 frequency significantly bigger than its neighboring regions, and Treviso province would have a comparatively low frequency of R1b, high frequency of I1, about 45% of G+J+E+T, and incredible *10%* of *L-M20*. Where did it come from? Phoenicians? Adriatic Veneti? Anyway, the numbers seem to support a bit Homer theory on Paphlagonia. 
> 
> *Maybe there are errors. For example, the Eupedia page shows 0% of L-M20 in Val Badia, Italian Tyrol, based on Capelli et al., but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20 shows 8,3 for the same local, based on Pichler and Thomas.
> 
> This L-M20 map doesn't seem very accurate, but it gives an idea of frequencies:


L20 in South Tyrol (both Romance and German speaking people) comes from Pichler 2006 and Thomas 2007, probably not included in Eupedia. L20 has clearly nothing to do with Phoenicians but with the people that settled the area from South Tyrol to Veneto before the IE. Euganei? The proto-Reatians?


Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms (2006)

http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/02..._pub%3Dpubmed&

New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201906a.html

----------


## Regio X

> L20 in South Tyrol (both Romance and German speaking people) comes from Pichler 2006 and Thomas 2007, probably not included in Eupedia. L20 has clearly nothing to do with Phoenicians but with the people that settled the area from South Tyrol to Veneto before the IE. Euganei? The proto-Reatians?
> 
> 
> Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms (2006)
> 
> http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.3378/02..._pub%3Dpubmed&
> 
> New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201906a.html


Ave, Pax Augusta! Thanks for the links. 
You're right. I noticed that, besides Treviso, L and T have a significant presence in East Liguria. Indeed, Euganei and Liguri would be related. I also saw some L-M20 STR markers from Oderzo-TV, and they're pretty different from the non-Europeans. 
I checked the Boattini numbers (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441), and they seem different from those presented by Eupedia.

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## piero

Also in English the anthropology of the ancient Veneti:
https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthurs-...+favero+arthur

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## Pax Augusta

> Also in English the anthropology of the ancient Veneti:
> https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthurs-...+favero+arthur


Is it you the author of the book?

----------

