# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Updated page and tree on Y-haplogroup T

## Maciamo

I have created two phylogenetic trees for haplogroup T and T-CTS2214. I have also updated the history section. 





The P77 and CTS6507 branch underwent a major expansion during the Early Bronze Age, from approximately 2500 BCE. The phylogeny suggests that this expansion took place from the South Caucasus region, including the Armenian Highlands, and spread in various directions around the Middle East and Europe. The European branch appears to have propagated through a Mediterranean route to Greece, Italy (including Sicily and Sardinia) and Iberia. Historically the Kura-Araxes culture is the best match for this expansion. While the Proto-Indo-Europeans (haplogroups R1a and R1b) were expanding from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe to central and northern Europe and Central Asia, the Kura-Araxes people, on the other side of the Caucasus, also developed a contemporary Bronze Age culture that expanded across West Asia, and possibly as far east as Pakistan and India. The Minoans, Europe's oldest proper civilisation (as opposed to archeological culture), could be an offshoot from that Kura-Araxes expansion. Kura-Araxian men would have belonged primarily to Y-haplogroup J2a1, but also to a lower extent to T1a-P77 and J1-L858.

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## Sile

@Maciano

thanks 

Tree from CTS54 below


T-CTS54 Z19926 * Z19902 * CTS6769+26 SNPsformed 6800 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:YF06979*USA [US-VA]*id:NA20758*TSI* T-CTS8489 CTS10538 * CTS8489 * Z19953+5 SNPsformed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
id:ERS256892*ITA [IT-CA]*T-CTS8489*T-Y17493 Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500+11 SNPsformed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232id:YF04203*USA [US-NC]* T-Z19945 Z19945formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
T-Z19945*
id:YF07608*ITA [IT-TV]* T-CTS1848 CTS1848formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybpinfo
id:YF07168*BEL [BE-WHT]*id:HG01051*PUR*id:HG01530*IBS* 




*All of these have a STR of DYS390=22 

**There are still many in the T ftdna project with DYS390=22 who have not been fully tested................but are all European, usually central or eastern european
*
The above tree with USA people are all from the British isles and only from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall ..............seems like the Gaelic areas of britain

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## Sile

IMO, one needs to treat the T haplogroup like the R1 group, they split ibto R1a and R1b. 
T needs a similar split .............like it is shown in the ftdna T project

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## Maciamo

> IMO, one needs to treat the T haplogroup like the R1 group, they split ibto R1a and R1b. 
> T needs a similar split .............like it is shown in the ftdna T project


Where would you place that split? Between T1 and T2, T1a and T1b, or further down? T2 and T1b are extremely rare so it's useless to have separate pages for them. If it's further down, it would be a three-way split. But since T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 all descend from Early Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent and are all found in similar regions today, why have separate pages? Also the whole T population worldwide is far smaller than even some deep clades of R1b like DF27 or L21.

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## Sile

> Where would you place that split? Between T1 and T2, T1a and T1b, or further down? T2 and T1b are extremely rare so it's useless to have separate pages for them. If it's further down, it would be a three-way split. But since T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 all descend from Early Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent and are all found in similar regions today, why have separate pages? Also the whole T population worldwide is far smaller than even some deep clades of R1b like DF27 or L21.


If you look at this link

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

The bottom left is T1a2 (L131 ) .................the bottom right is T1a3

and all the rest is T1a1 

T1a1 went every where that there is T .................while T1a2 and T1a3 had less areas ............I would even say that T1a2 and T1a3 combined did not overpass T1a1 in numbers ................the numbers are even reflected in ftdna T project

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## Sile

I amended the tree below for T , to show from early bronze age and older the path of T



we can clearly see that T1a2 went only into Europe and is a small branch to the bottom left.

T1a3 is barely existing and has not broken out ( pink circle bottom right )

T1a1 is the main branch it is either Persian, West-asian, Armenian/Caucasus or European

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## Alpenjager

> Where would you place that split? Between T1 and T2, T1a and T1b, or further down? T2 and T1b are extremely rare so it's useless to have separate pages for them. If it's further down, it would be a three-way split. But since T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 all descend from Early Neolithic farmers from the Fertile Crescent and are all found in similar regions today, why have separate pages? Also the whole T population worldwide is far smaller than even some deep clades of R1b like DF27 or L21.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newrepl...reply&p=498747



> My first aproach on the LT-L298 origin 49600-41400 ybp, their descendant haplogroup T-M184 45500-39700 ybp their main branches T1-L206 (T1a-M70, T1b(xM70)) and T2-PH110 29300-24500 ybp as well as the L2-M595 25700-20800 ybp subclade of L-M20. I haven't added L1 because should be geographically overlapped by T-M184.
> Used samples: 
> All known samples belonging to T2-PH110, L2-M595, T1-L206 (xM70) as well as all known samples belonging to basal subclades of T1a-M70. T1a-M70 basal subclades of: Y8614, Y11675, L162, PH141, L446. Samples found here: YFULL, FTDNA haplogroup T project, Hallast14 et al, Frigi05, Mendez11, Jakovski11 among other published papers.
> 
> Attachment 8364



http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-T-in-Germany



> I have made a bar chart showing the mtDNA H frequency among all tested Early Neolithic populations. I have excluded H5 results because this is found in Anatolia and is not found in Karsdorf.
> 
> Interesting findings is that Karsdorf match pretty well with Eastern Balkans while starcevo-koros and LBK from southwestern Germany match with Anatolia.
> 
> I have not included any unreliable sample and I decided count as H5 an ambiguous H vs H5 sample from Barcin. I have not included two samples from Portugal.
> 
> Attachment 8369Attachment 8370



Haplogroup T1a1 doesnt seems to be descended directly from EN framers from the Fertile Crescent. Rather than that seems to be descended from farmers coming from west Black sea (Eastern Balkans) or North Black sea. There is virtually 0% T among Anatolian farmers and there is no evidence that travelled together with the available data. There is as evidence as there is with I1 found among EN farmers in LBKT. Found inhabiting close lands is not the same as arrive together. Even having autosomal admixture is not evidence of any common homeland.
LBK population was composed of "*different groups without close social or biological kinship" Meyer et al.*
So, there is a good chance that T1a1 and I1 among any other "non found among Anatolian haplogroups" arrived from any other place.

T1a2 Is not clear If arose to the south of Black Sea or to the west. Even T1a3 could be originated in anyplace around the Black sea.
.
I agree T-M184 doesn't seems to need a separate page but indeed, there should be, at least, a page for L-M20. This haplogroup seems to have deep roots around Eastern Europe and Black sea, despite to be widely widespread outside Europe through their L1 branch and specially their L1a subclade.

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## Sile

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newrepl...reply&p=498747
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-T-in-Germany
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup T1a1 doesnt seems to be descended directly from EN framers from the Fertile Crescent. Rather than that seems to be descended from farmers coming from west Black sea (Eastern Balkans) or North Black sea. There is virtually 0% T among Anatolian farmers and there is no evidence that travelled together with the available data. There is as evidence as there is with I1 found among EN farmers in LBKT. Found inhabiting close lands is not the same as arrive together. Even having autosomal admixuture is not evidence of any common homeland.
> ...


Maybe it is best to confirm with this site 

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/

Run by one of the Yfull team

They only use, 37 marker or above tested or Bigy from ftdna

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## Sile

T1a2 branch only from yfull .................there is nothing south or east of map presented......but there is in USA and Cuba which I excluded because they come from northern Spain or British isles

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## Sile

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/newrepl...reply&p=498747
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-T-in-Germany
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup T1a1 doesnt seems to be descended directly from EN framers from the Fertile Crescent. Rather than that seems to be descended from farmers coming from west Black sea (Eastern Balkans) or North Black sea. There is virtually 0% T among Anatolian farmers and there is no evidence that travelled together with the available data. There is as evidence as there is with I1 found among EN farmers in LBKT. Found inhabiting close lands is not the same as arrive together. Even having autosomal admixture is not evidence of any common homeland.
> ...




Are these new samples from the 600 samples of the west-asian paper then part of only T1a1 ?

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