# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  New map of Slavic Y-DNA

## Maciamo

I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458. 

The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).

Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.



This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.

Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally only 10 to 20%, a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.

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## Ownstyler

It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?

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## Maciamo

> It looks great. One question: did you take into consideration medieval and ancient dna too, or just modern distributions?


I am not sure I understand your question. This map is based on the modern distribution of Y-DNA. Obviously the map would have looked very different in ancient times before the Slavic migrations.

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## Ownstyler

I meant, to determine which sublcadea are Slavic, did you look at which aubclades have only Slavic speakers today?

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## Aspar

That map looks good.
It shows how significant was the depopulation of the Balkans during the Medieval and it's population with new, Slavic people, especially in the western Balkans, where the percentage of these Slavic lineages in some places is more than 70%.
The Slavic lineages in Anatolia can be explained with the historical fact that the Byzantines moved Slavic tribes from Greece to the depopulated areas of Anatolia.
Some of those Slavic tribes changed alliance and moved in the territory of the Caliphate, hence we find Slavic lineages in northern Mesapotamia as well.
Also there is more recent factor, the Ottoman Empire, the janissaries and the converted Balkan people that moved in Anatolia after the Ottoman collapse in the Balkans.

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## Dreptul Valah

What Slavic people?

Kutmichevitsa,FYROM,were full of Vlachs,at least,starting with Samuil,the Cometopuli brothers.

The so-called Macedonian Empire,actually the last part of the First Bulgarian Empire,was formed after the state's Eastern core,Pliska-Preslav, was disintegrated by the pressure coming from the Byzantines and Kievan Rus,led by Svyatoslav.

The state had moved the headquarters in FYROM,Kutmichevitsa,heavily and mainly relying on Vlachs,because they were living in the western parts of the Bulgarian Empire,that was not affected by the Byzantine and Rus raids and conquests.


The Cometopuli themselves came from their father,Nicolas,which was the chief of an western komitat,Sredrec(Sofia),and the origin of the family is unknown, it has been speculated,not only by the Romanian historians, that they were Vlachs.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pe_c._1000.jpg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

http://www.makedonija.info/samuil.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cometopuli_dynasty

The Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo:

https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html

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## Johane Derite

> Y-DNA frequencies do not always correspond to genome-wide ancestry. That is especially true for South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, where according to 23andMe East European ancestry (more broadly Balto-Slavic) is generally *only 10 to 20%,* a far cry from the 72% of Slavic Y-DNA among Bosniaks.



Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic, 
what is the other 80-90%. 

Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?

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## Dema

Interesting thread... I agree with most of it.

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## Dreptul Valah

The Macedonians that I've seen on YouTube don't look like Bulgarians or at least a part of them.


They are much more spirited,active,reactive,extremely determinated,sharing that and especially this with the Albanians, Vlachs and maybe even N-N-W Greeks.

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## Dema

> Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic, 
> what is the other 80-90%. 
> 
> Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?



This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.

So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.

I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.

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## Dreptul Valah

CTRL+F:Vlach

https://www.slavorum.org/forum/discu...topuli-dynasty

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## Maciamo

> Interesting, I don't know if you edited your comment or I misread this as originally saying Montenegrins instead of South Slav but my question remains. If autosomally the South Slavs, most of all in the Dinaric Alps, are only 10-20% Eastern European / broadly Balto-Slavic, 
> what is the other 80-90%. 
> 
> Also is the height of Montenegrins and such from that 10-20% slav admixture or from the larger part?


I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally. 

I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.

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## Maciamo

> This is not really true... South Slavs generally score at least 50% East Europe. Average is 50 -70 % of East Europe (Balto Slavic DNA), while rest 30 - 50 % is usually filled mostly with Southeast Europe (Greko Albanian genes), and usually in addition they have from 1 to 10% of various DNA like 5% Siberia, 2% Ashkenazi, 2% Sephardic, 4% West Middle Eastern, 6% Asia minor, 4% West Middle East, 2% North and Central America, 7% Scandinavia, British Isles, etc.
> 
> So generally they have 3x more East then Southeast.
> 
> I got this opinion mostly by observing many Croat and Serb samples on FTDNA and Gedmatch.


It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.

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## AdeoF

Interesting map i would say. Im going to poland soon so I might show them this map. Yep i would also say Slavic people would all score 50% of East Europe, even if they hate to be called Eastern Europe

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## Dema

> It really depends on the calculator or testing company's admixture that one is using. It seems that the 23andMe's East European is more centred on Baltic countries and may underestimate East European ancestry in Southeast Europe.


Its possible tho, i dont know for 23andme. Here you can see a quick look at Serbian forum autosomal results 
https://www.poreklo.rs/forum/index.php?topic=603.0

After page 6, its updated version of FTDNA my origins.
Less then 30% East is very rare among them. + I believe that Serbs (especially Krajina, Republika srpska and South Serbs ), Macedonian Slavs and Montenegrin's should have highest impact of Southeast because of Vlach (Roman leftovers) and Albanian influence. While Bosnjaks (Muslims and Catholics), Slovens and Croats should have even less Southeast and more East.

However, after arrival on Balkan, their genetics is being enriched with Southeast components in compare to East and North Slavs.
So except for Slavic element, they for sure have Greko Illyrian or Vlach part in their genetics displayed as Southeast.
Also later, many of it comes directly from Albanians, especially in Montenegro and South Serbia where assimilation of Albanians is taking place as we speak.

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## Johane Derite

> I didn't mention Montenegrins. I am not sure how reliable 23andMe's Ancestry Composition is, but Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs have between 60 and 80% of Balkans admixture + a few percents of 'French & German' (mostly Celtic), 'Northwest European' (mostly Germanic) and 'Broadly South European'. I am not exactly sure what that 'Balkans' corresponds to, but probably the blend of Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age populations that defined the ancient Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. The South Slavic migration was apparently strongly male-biased and got progressively diluted autosomally along the way so that their genetic impact was much stronger on the Y-DNA side than autosomally. I doubt that the tall body height of Dinaric people come from the Slavs. It was probably inherited from the ancient population. It could also have arisen from the blend of various complementary alleles for height from both Illyrian and Slavic populations.


Sorry, I must have misread it. Cool stuff

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## gyms

> I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458. 
> 
> The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).
> 
> Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.
> 
> 
> 
> This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.
> ...


Is I2a1b Slavic?

Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now


*1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin*

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## Maciamo

> Is I2a1b Slavic?
> 
> Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now
> 
> *1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin*


I know, I wrote that page 7 years ago. But you are a few years late if you still question I2b1b-CTS10228 as a Slavic lineage. It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...avic-expansion

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nt-Slavic-king

You might find this summary useful too.

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## gyms

> I know, I wrote that page 7 years ago. But you are a few years late if you still question I2b1b-CTS10228 as a Slavic lineage. It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum:
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...avic-expansion
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nt-Slavic-king
> 
> You might find this summary useful too.


"It has been discussed at lenghth on the forum"

So what?You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

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## hrvat22

> Is I2a1b Slavic?
> 
> Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now
> 
> *1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin*


I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch. 

For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.

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## hrvat22

> I made this map by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Slavic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These include Y-DNA haplogroups I2a1b-CTS10228, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-Z92 and some branches R1a-M458. 
> 
> The Slavic Y-DNA in Italy, southern France and northern Spain came with the Goths, who had assimilated a lot of (Proto-)Slavic people in Poland and Ukraine before moving into the Roman Empire. Interestingly these Slavs appear to have been almost exclusively R1a-CTS1211 (Y2902 and Y3301 clades), in sharp contrast to the later South Slavs who settled in the Dinaric Alps and Balkans and possessed high percentages of I2a1b-CTS10228 (in addition to R1a-CTS1211).
> 
> Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin, but as they have not yet been identified and no regional data is available, these were not been included. They might account for an extra 5 to 10% of Y-chomosomal lineages in Slavic countries. Within core Slavic countries like Western Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, the remainder of the Y-DNA is mostly Uralic, Germanic, Iranian (Scythian) with also some Celtic in Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.
> 
> 
> 
> This map hints that Slavic migrations could have reached deep into the Byzantine Empire, across Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, and not just in Southeast Europe. However I think that it may be in part to later redistribution of population within the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires. People move, intermarry, and genes flow, especially within a same country. 1500 years is a long time and such drift may be responsible for Slavic Y-DNA in places like northern Mesopotamia. However it is undeniable that there is Slavic autosomal DNA in Turkey itself - more even than in Greece or Albania according to 23andMe's Ancestry Composition.
> ...


For now only genetic research suggests that Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina has 83% of Slavic I2a1b and R1a branches.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...GeneticsEn.htm

Some I2a1b and R1a branches can be and Vlach origin, not original but assimilated.

For now do not exist younger subclades so we can not reconstruct local migration, but in the future we will know it and then we'll be more accurate. Because we do not know whether branch I-S17250 in Croatian Serbs come from Greece with Vlachs, from Serbia with Slavic Serbians or is it local Croatian. Roughly I2a1b I-S17250 is Slavic (White Croatian) but later descendant mutations become Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian, Macedonian, Vlach, Aromanian.

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## Maciamo

> I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch. 
> 
> For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.


I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.

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## hrvat22

> I don't see why you only consider this branch with a TMRCA of 1850 years. Do you seriously think it's possible that a single man who live shortly before the Slavic migrations was the ancestor of all Slavic I2a1b people? Slavic ethnogenesis is older than that - at least 3000 years ago.


It is the only subclade or branch that can be linked to White Croats((there are probably other ones from that period)),.. all previously mutations belong to ancestors of White Croatians but who knows all the names which they had then. Older mutations in fact have nothing to do with tribe of White Croatians becouse White Croatians are formed by mixing I2a1b and R1a subclades in southern Poland before 2000 years, meaning that only those branches age 2000 years to the present time have something to do with Croats.

When R1a comes to Poland and gets mixed with I2a1b then we can talk about Slavic I2a1b subclades, but I'm talking about White Croatian Slavs. You probably know when R1a comes to Poland? And from that time we can talk about the Slavs but I do not know exactly time of mixing R1a and I2a1b in Poland.

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## gyms

> I2a1b is not Slavic but younger branches especially branch https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ is Slavic or more precisely White Croatian branch. 
> 
> For now source of I-S17250 is in south-eastern Poland and south-western Ukraine.


You may fabricate hundreds of hypothesis,the only convincing argument would be Slavic aDNA.

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## I1a3_Young

The I1-Z63 in Croatia, Bosnia/Herz, and Serbia is also at a strangely high frequency.

In fact certain branches of Z63 are spread almost only in Slavic areas (Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia). It could be that some or much of the Z63 in the balkans was moved in with the Slavization and supplemented by the Gothic migrations.

The Slavization of the Balkans was before the historical Germanic migrations, right?

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## mihaitzateo

> Impossible. Look at the TMRCA of all the modern I2a-CTS10228 carriers, it spread from 1 single ancestor recently, all genetic evidence pointing from the Slavs.
> 
> All of these populations you mention carried none of it.
> 
> The same way I1 escaped from Central Europe in the Bronze Age, to Scandinavia, with 1 survivor breeding up there from 1100BC and spreading later.
> Every single I1-carrier in the world descends from that survivor of 3100 years of TMRCA.


I2a-CTS10228 is a single subclade, or has more subclades?
Because as I understand there are more subclades of this subclade:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
So maybe some I2a-CTS10228 subclades are moved with the Slavic migration of 600 AD.
Maybe other I2a-CTS10228 subclades moved with other people that Slavs.

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## gyms

> I2a-CTS10228 is a single subclade, or has more subclades?
> Because as I understand there are more subclades of this subclade:
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
> So maybe some I2a-CTS10228 subclades are moved with the Slavic migration of 600 AD.
> Maybe other I2a-CTS10228 subclades moved with other people that Slavs.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

I2aCTS10228 is not Slavic. Slavic is not an ethnic concept,it is a linguistic notion.

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## Dibran

> https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
> 
> I2aCTS10228 is not Slavic. Slavic is not an ethnic concept,it is a linguistic notion.


Maybe not originally. However, Most all I2a1b in the Balkans, including some Z280 and some M458 arrived with Sklavenoi. around 100-200AD the free Dacians that fled the romans north of the Danube, could be the base/core that contributed to the Proto-Slavic/Sklavenoi ethnogenesis that later invaded the Balkans.

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## gyms

> Maybe not originally. However, Most all I2a1b in the Balkans, including some Z280 and some M458 arrived with Sklavenoi. around 100-200AD the free Dacians that fled the romans north of the Danube, could be the base/core that contributed to the Proto-Slavic/Sklavenoi ethnogenesis that later invaded the Balkans.


I have not seen any Slavic or Dacian aDNA yet.

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## Dibran

> I have not seen any Slavic or Dacian aDNA yet.


No Dacian yet. Its true. No M458 ADNA either. However I2a1b has been found in middle ages Slavic Samples, with most diversity occurring in Southern Poland. The basal I2a1b in Sweden is not the same as CTS10228 and its downstream clades. It is a common ancestor sure. Not the same though. CTS10228 has only been found in middle ages Slavic samples. Z280 was discovered all over the historical Baltic and Slavic zones as well, some of which date to the late bronze and Iron ages. Its not hard to find. A simple google search will answer your question. The below is the clade to which all I2a1b in South Slavs and most others in Northern Europe belong to. The Motala sample with basal I2a1b has not been found in any living people today. So if you clade is shared with Slavs, it probably came with Slavic Pirates into Scandinavia in the early middle ages.

*Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post255823

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza*

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## gyms

"There are 2 from Magyar period also (possible Y4460 & S17250)"

"Actually, we don't know whether this is is indeed I2a-Din (for this we would need to identify some mutations downstream of L621, or even downstream of CTS10228)"

" *New entry YF09727* [MM: from France!] *splits the old I-CTS10228 level*: He tested *negative for at least 6 of the SNPs* currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion."

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post255823

btw. *900-1000 AD is medieval not aDNA!*

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## Dibran

> "There are 2 from Magyar period also (possible Y4460 & S17250)"
> 
> "Actually, we don't know whether this is is indeed I2a-Din (for this we would need to identify some mutations downstream of L621, or even downstream of CTS10228)"
> 
> " *New entry YF09727* [MM: from France!] *splits the old I-CTS10228 level*: He tested *negative for at least 6 of the SNPs* currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion."
> 
> https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post255823
> 
> btw. *900-1000 AD is medieval not aDNA!*


Keep coping

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## gyms

> Keep coping


Keep dreaming.

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## Dibran

> Keep dreaming.


You're the one dreaming for thinking I2a1b is Scandinavian lol. Like I said, if you're basal perhaps its Bastarnae, Goths etc. But if you're downstream CTS10228 you need to find a way to explain why it is everywhere Slavs are and not everywhere Vikings were. Slavic Pirates! they were a thing in Southern Sweden you know. I am L1029 myself. While I am basal so other possibilities exist, in all probability it still probably moved with Sklavenoi before having a founder effect in Albania. I accept it. Despite no ADNA its still probably the case but we will see.

Diversity is usually indicative of origins(in the absence of ADNA). Most diversity for I2a1b is in southern Poland. R1a diversity in Romania etc. If you want to feel special you can say perhaps the a mix of Bastarnae, and free Dacians were the progenitors of Proto-Slavs, but that still doesn't change that its most recent transmission into your lands were from Slavs.

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## Pericles

How can this possibly be true when these are shown before Slavic presence in the Mediterranean areas?:

"Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin"

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## Dibran

> How can this possibly be true when these are shown before Slavic presence in the Mediterranean areas?:
> 
> "Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin"


I think he means in terms of specific clades. There are some clades more commonly found in Slavic countries suggesting they spread with the slavic migrations. Not that it is originally Slavic derived. Same as I have an Albanian founder clade(found only in Albanians) under a Proto-Slavic haplogroup(L1029). Doesn't change the ancestor coming from Northern and Eastern Europe, but the clade that developed from that ancestor is currently Albanian specific. So I imagine "Some deep clades of E-V13, G2a, J2b2a and R1b-Z2103 may also be of Slavic origin", means some DEEP clades developed and spread with Slavs, making it Slavic at that point in time. If you go to the baseline its not Slavic. This is merely in terms of migration, since it takes only a couple generations or so to replace the majority of your genome.

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## varang

In this thread many times colorful statistics are used from blog.vayda.pl. Be careful with this "statistics". I am Admin of YP728 & Subclade project. So, I know phylogeny and distribution of YP417 < L1029 very well. Author sais YP417 is Russia/Ukraine and it is result of Kiev culture etc. But it is not proper conclusion. YP417 is a part of L1029 and its Western migrations (4-8 cent.) were mainly from upper Vistula to NW Russia through Belarus and to Balkans (mainly South of Bulgaria, Rodops, Haskovo). About 25-30 per cent is left in West of Belarus (Poland, West Prussia, Sweden, Danmark). Be careful with Vayda's statistics. It seems I know what mistake is made by Vayda. It is including of numerous Ashkenazi branch M12402. But it is incorrect because of their own specific cultural area and distribution. So, Vayda shows many Latvians, Romanians, Ukrainians. But we have not any Latvians and Romanians. Ukrainians have their minor amount. Vayda should know haplogroups of Kiev culture, Pripyat river etc - they are I2a1, CTS1211, Z92... No L1029.

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## Joey37

I also agree with an Upper Vistula origin of L1029; my clade of YP445 is predominantly German today-I envision it having originated in the Czech lands after its ancestor went through the Moravian Gate from southeast Poland, and then having gone up the Elbe into central Germany.

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## Parapolitikos

> That map looks good.
> It shows how significant was the depopulation of the Balkans during the Medieval and it's population with new, Slavic people, especially in the western Balkans, where the percentage of these Slavic lineages in some places is more than 70%.
> The Slavic lineages in Anatolia can be explained with the historical fact that the Byzantines moved Slavic tribes from Greece to the depopulated areas of Anatolia.
> Some of those Slavic tribes changed alliance and moved in the territory of the Caliphate, hence we find Slavic lineages in northern Mesapotamia as well.
> Also there is more recent factor, the Ottoman Empire, the janissaries and the converted Balkan people that moved in Anatolia after the Ottoman collapse in the Balkans.


I dont want to brake you little theory here but:
Either part of Greece were depopulated and the population replaced with Slavs, or the Slavic input is as low as the second map shows. 
You cant have both.
The first map is based on a questionable dating method from ONE dating company(russian) based on ONE dating method, in an area of genetics that there isnt a consensus yet.
The second map though is based on science and representative samples of the individual DNA and the population groups.
You can take the raw data from one company, and the raw data of a second test from a second company, and analyse them both by the algorithm of a third company or GedMAtch, and they will yield the same matching results more or less.

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## lyakh

I think that Lithuania and Latvia or even Estonia might have more Slavic Y-DNA than on the map mentioned in the title of that topic. 

I suppose than in Lithuania much of R1a (maybe even most) and (almost) all I2a is from Slavs, not Balts. Balts had not I2a-Y3120, but there may be about 5% of that haplogroup in this country.

M458 can be found in Lithuania (where its frequency may be about 6%) and even in Estonia. Ancient Balts probably have no M458 at all, at least, especially its young subclades (TMRCA about 2000 ybp) like YP256, YP1337, L1029 (most common) and YP515. Of course they had no I-Y3120 (which has TMRCA about 2100-2200 ybp according to YFull) in ancient times.

Many Balts, especially in Lithuania, may have East or West Slavic Y-DNA, which is usually R1a (more frequently) or I2a (more rarely). Most popular clades of CTS1211 (YP343 and Y35) and probably even some branches of usually "more eastern" Z92 are most probably Slavic, not Baltic.

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## Dagne

Why would you think so? Archeologically, it is former Baltic tribes who extended much into current Slavic territories and not vice versa. Therefore, it is more likely that current Slavic people (like Belorussians) that carry Baltic y-dna, don't you agree?

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## Parapolitikos

> Is I2a1b Slavic?
> 
> Why it is wrong to assume that a haplogroup originated where it is most frequent now
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-frequent-now
> 
> *1. Elevated modern frequency does not equal place of origin*


That it is slavic is based on the premise that the method that y-ful company uses, created by Russians, is correct.
Which is a big, gargantual ''if''?
There is no consensus on dating Y-STRs .

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## Parapolitikos

> I think the perception of Gauls and Germanics as tall may have had more to do with, first of all, very broad generalizations based on some outliers (mainly distinguished warriors), and secondly and most importantly not exactly due to genetics, but to lifestyle, as Greeks and Romans as a whole were heavily agriculturalist peoples, and the "barbarians" to their north still led a more "natural" lifestyle with much more stock breeding, hunting and gathering coupled with agriculture. There are several indications that in general farmer peoples, especially in very populated (= less resources per capita) regions, were shorter than pastoralist or hunter-gatherer people.


1.70 of ancient grecoromans should be considered High .
Statistics indicate that most germanic countries would reach that avarage height only in the 20thst century.

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## strahor27

Ever heard of the Justinianic plague? Or the multitude of Slavic tribes that settled in Greece? They were hellenized, eventually, but unless the Byzantines executed every single one of them, they would've left some impact in the overall genetics of Greece. 

There's plenty of maps featuring current and former Slavic toponyms in Greece, I'd link one but this is my first post so I'll have to forgo that. Either they skip this bit of history in Greek history classes, or you're being wilfully ignorant due to some sort of political agenda.

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## Thrako_Illyrian

Very interesting map. Thanks for the share.

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