# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Putting an end to Greek/Albanian feuds

## Balkanite

i trust that people in here have the attention-skills and patience to watch a 1 hour video without problems. And if you don't have those skills, don't comment then :)

I will explain quickly:
The video is a lecture in history, lectured by Maria Eftimiu.
Maria Eftimiu is a greek professor at The University of Athens. She is not a nobody, and she has actually won awards for being the best professor in Athens.
She is very realistic, and she forgets no one. I will write some of the points of the videos.

- She describes which greek cities and areas are actually albanian, and that most of the generals during the Greek war of Independence were actually albanian too, and they almost didn't know how to speak greek at the time.

- She also points out how Kosovo and Macedonia is going to reunite with Albania soon.

- She also mentions how there is a legal issue ongoing about the atrocitites commited against albanians in Greece 70 years ago.

- She also mentions how 40-60% percent of Greece were in fact Albanians 200 years ago, but most have been assimilated by now.

- She lists all greek surnames which have an albanian origin(so greeks, check if your surnames are listed ;) my surname was listed )

- She points out how greece was almost empty due to wars and plague, so byzantines and venetians invited albanians to protect the greek citites.

All in all, most of the thing you hear these albanians say here on the forum, will be said, just with authority!
So everyone denying the possibility of albanian origin, if you do not believe you own "best professor" of your great ATHENS, then who do you believe my friends? :)

I bet some of you won't even have the nerve to watch the lecture until the end, you are afraid your reality will crumble like a dry cracker.

But anyway, thought this would be an important video to show you, as is touches most of the things that are making greeks and labnians fight each other over and over again. Maybe the fighting can stop now.
So here you have it, one of the greeks that have the most authority in all of Greece telling you what is going on with greece and what has been going on :)
Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI6zw4jW3Y

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## A. Papadimitriou

She isn't the best professor but the opposite of the nationalist ones and some short of ethno-nihilist or something. The texts she cites are real, the translation is not exactly wrong but quite free while he (Alban G. Thika?) omits and rephrases some stuff.

I wouldn't have any problems if I had Albanian or Vlach ancestors. I can send you the surnames of my ancestors to see how many of those are Albanian or Arvanitic or Vlach, if you want.

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## Balkanite

> She isn't the best professor but the opposite of the nationalist ones and some short of ethno-nihilist or something. The texts she cites are real, the translation is not exactly wrong but quite free while he (Alban G. Thika?) omits and rephrases some stuff.
> 
> I wouldn't have any problems if I had Albanian or Vlach ancestors. I can send you the surnames of my ancestors to see how many of those are Albanian or Arvanitic or Vlach, if you want.


Yes i noticed how Dr. Thika makes some of Maria's statements more compact, but i think that is just to spare us of repetitions and constant subtitles on the screen :)

And yea that could be fun. You can write all the surnames you can remember, then we can see if some of them are of Arvanite origin. But of course it also depends on where you are from in Greece. There are some areas that had no arvanites at all. But 200 years of mixing between assimilated arvanites and Romi's leaves almost no space for purely Romi(late middle age greeks) individuals :)

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## Yetos

That is not an end,

it is a start,

the end will be with Corfu agreement

besides Eythymiou was always that kind,

*THAT IS A BIG PROVE THAT IN GREECE THERE IS NO RACISM,
NEITHER SAUVINISM,*

*I WONDER IN ALBANIA IS THERE ANY PHD ON UNIVERSITIES BY THE GREEK MINORITY?


*at least Eythymiou can speak free, in Greece, whatever she says.
does this happens in Albania?
or he enters the houses terrorizing minorities

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## Balkanite

> That is not an end,
> 
> it is a start,
> 
> the end will be with Corfu agreement
> 
> besides Eythymiou was always that kind,


Typical uneducated warmongering :)
Watch the video, my beautiful thick skulled brother..

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## firetown

I appreciate your effort. But as we can see, good intentions are frequently overlooked by those who seem to have some sort of agenda in the back of their heads.



> Typical uneducated warmongering :)
> Watch the video, my beautiful thick skulled brother..

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## Balkanite

> I appreciate your effort. But as we can see, good intentions are frequently overlooked by those who seem to have some sort of agenda in the back of their heads.


Yes, it is so obvious how some users start warmongering as soon as their beliefs are compromised.
I actually though that a lecture by an acknowledged academic would make them see things more clearly. But it is like, if a theory does not meet their political agendas, they suddenly turn blind and deaf all at once.

And this video actually is the most realistic one in my opinion. Because she neither agrees with albanian nationalists, nor with greek nationalists. She just states cold numbers and fact, and recites actual historical memoirs.

But for the greek nationalists, it is easier to demonize Maria Eftimiu than to admit that they are wrong.

Luckily for all of us, neither the greek nationalists, nor the albanian ones, have any authority to write history anymore. So i believe that eventually people like Maria will emerge as the dominant ones, both in the greek academic stage, and the albanian academic stage :)

Eventually when everyone believes the facts, some apologies are going to be made, and Albanians and Greeks can once again be good neighbours. 
I just hope this will happen in my lifetime, and not some 100 years in the future.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> Yes i noticed how Dr. Thika makes some of Maria's statements more compact, but i think that is just to spare us of repetitions and constant subtitles on the screen :)
> 
> And yea that could be fun. You can write all the surnames you can remember, then we can see if some of them are of Arvanite origin. But of course it also depends on where you are from in Greece. There are some areas that had no arvanites at all. But 200 years of mixing between assimilated arvanites and Romi's leaves almost no space for purely Romi(late middle age greeks) individuals :)



50% is from Epirus and 0 are Albanian. I will send you p.m.

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## Yetos

> Yes, it is so obvious how some users start warmongering as soon as their beliefs are compromised.
> I actually though that a lecture by an acknowledged academic would make them see things more clearly. But it is like, if a theory does not meet their political agendas, they suddenly turn blind and deaf all at once.
> 
> And this video actually is the most realistic one in my opinion. Because she neither agrees with albanian nationalists, nor with greek nationalists. She just states cold numbers and fact, and recites actual historical memoirs.
> 
> But for the greek nationalists, it is easier to demonize Maria Eftimiu than to admit that they are wrong.
> 
> Luckily for all of us, neither the greek nationalists, nor the albanian ones, have any authority to write history anymore. So i believe that eventually people like Maria will emerge as the dominant ones, both in the greek academic stage, and the albanian academic stage :)
> 
> ...



it is very wise on you to blaim me, as ultran nationalist,

BUT WHAT WITH CORFU AGREEMENT AND N EPIRUS?

SO THIS YOU POST IS JUST A START.

*I do not see Eythymioy speaking also about N Epirus, WHY?
NEITHER ABOUT THE GREEKS IN FYROM? 
so her speach is either cut, 
either 'programed'
*like Ρεπουση Φιλλης etc etc, Leftish Internationalists who want to nihilate memories and past for shake of International Left and Globalization,
sorry but in Greece we also have opinions as democracy,
maybe in your country you do not have such, cause Spachiu does not allow such way of thinking.

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## Balkanite

> it is very wise on you to blaim me, as ultran nationalist,
> 
> BUT WHAT WITH CORFU AGREEMENT AND N EPIRUS?
> 
> SO THIS YOU POST IS JUST A START.


Seriously, do you write your post's while blindfolded?
I have to decode every post you make. I don't get paid to interpret your posts. 
Are you intentionally trying to make your statements as ambiguous as possible, in the hope that people won't have the patience to decode your meaningless post, and in the end just give you the last word?

AT LEAST WRITE SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY, THAT IS THE LEAST YOU CAN DO WHEN EDUCATED PEOPLE ACTUALLY SPEND THEIR TIME TRYING TO TEACH YOU SOMETHING!

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## Balkanite

> like Ρεπουση Φιλλης etc etc, Leftish Internationalists who want to nihilate memories and past for shake of International Left and Globalization,
> sorry but in Greece we also have opinions as democracy,
> maybe in your country you do not have such


I am from Ireland my friend, i think we have e better system here than in Greece. But lets not measure private parts now :)

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## Yetos

> I am from Ireland my friend, i think we have e better system here than in Greece. But lets not measure private parts now :)


if you are from Ireland then what you do with Greek-Albanian cases?

come on,
*behind finger no one can hide.*

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## Sakattack

> ... But for the greek nationalists... Luckily for all of us


I have been following you from the beginning of this (one more, God...) totally meaningless flame war. It's very funny, though, to call people "nationalists" and to put yourself out of this bag. 

You obviously belong there. 

How come that somebody who OPENLY CLAIMS foreign territory, as you did in one of those first posts of yours about the European borders, is not an ultra nationalist? 

You continue to spam us again and again with this Efthimiou lady (don't know her). Nihilist scientists are kinda common in Greece, I would say proportionally the same as the nationalistic ones. In any case, what a single person says, it's not the Bible. Not happy to explain this to an adult. 

Funny how you try to play mother Teresa though and state that you hope for peace and smooth neighboring relations between Albanians and Greeks, when in first place you threw a million accusations on your beloved neighbors and want to keep for yourself some 1/5 of your beloved neighbors' land. (you did the same with FYROM, from whom you want nothing less than the WHOLE of their land, LOL, and of course from - no brainer - Serbia regarding Kosovo). What an openminded lad with the best of intentions! Amazed! 

To end it, some ultranationalist Greek would claim Albanian territory too (you know the Greeks in Northern Epirus at least till now speak their language and identify as Greeks) and have almost the same, if not more, "rights" to do that. 

The Arvanites in Greece are fully assimilated since LONG time ago, they have 100% Greek consciousnesses and of course identify so. Back on the day, they used to number some respectable amount of the Greek pop, nobody denies it. That was, though, some centuries ago, things changed, mixture happened, they got normally integrated. There is no "minority" issue, try to wake up.

PS: The fact that you became insulting and almost bullied a a person/member who's level in English happened to be lower than yours (Yetos), speaks for itself.

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## Balkanite

> I have been following you from the beginning of this (one more, God...) totally meaningless flame war. It's very funny, though, to call people "nationalists" and to put yourself out of this bag. 
> 
> You obviously belong there. 
> 
> How come that somebody who OPENLY CLAIMS foreign territory, as you did in one of those first posts of yours about the European borders, is not an ultra nationalist? 
> 
> You continue to spam us again and again with this Efthimiou lady (don't know her). Nihilist scientists are kinda common in Greece, I would say proportionally the same as the nationalistic ones. In any case, what a single person says, it's not the Bible. Not happy to explain this to an adult. 
> 
> Funny how you try to play mother Teresa though and state that you hope for peace and smooth neighboring relations between Albanians and Greeks, when in first place you threw a million accusations on your beloved neighbors and want to keep for yourself some 1/5 of your beloved neighbors' land. (you did the same with FYROM, from whom you want nothing less than the WHOLE of their land, LOL, and of course from - no brainer - Serbia regarding Kosovo). What an openminded lad with the best of intentions! Amazed! 
> ...


When did i bully anyone with their English? I commented on their poor way of expressing themselves, because they came with no good argumentation and because half of their messages were nonsense!

And i did not at one single point say that anyone should take land from anyone. I was just citing to you what your own greek academics are saying on this matter. As i said earlier, i don't care which territories should belong to whom. I live in Ireland.
I was only pointing out the fact that the court in Hague will do something about the Cham Issue of northern greece in the near future, and other points in the video. And that Maria Eftimiou, an awarded greek academic, is saying the same thing.
I don't know what albanians say about the matter. All i am saying is what the official Greece is saying itself. So talk to your ministry of education if you don't like what they teach the students.
And if you don't like the reality, then close your eyes, my friend :)

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## Milan.M

> - She also points out how Kosovo and Macedonia is going to reunite with Albania soon.
> 
> - She also mentions how there is a legal issue ongoing about the atrocitites commited against albanians in Greece 70 years ago.
> 
> - She also mentions how 40-60% percent of Greece were in fact Albanians 200 years ago, but most have been assimilated by now.
> 
> - She lists all greek surnames which have an albanian origin(so greeks, check if your surnames are listed ;) my surname was listed )
> 
> - She points out how greece was almost empty due to wars and plague, so byzantines and venetians invited albanians to protect the greek citites.


I will say that she is crazy and even more dangerous than any nationalists.
Macedonia and Kosovo will "unite" with Albania? For this to happen we will witness a bloodshed of enormous proportion and probably a third Balkan war.
More over Albanians in Macedonia at least vast majority of them don't want this, nor do they want war,we saw that when Kumanovo conflict happened.

No one wants war,but if that is inevitable;

If you ask me in the first place we can make a swap of teritories if that's what you wish,by that you will gain more land?Probably you will,but let put an end then to your wishes,let them secede and let parts of Albania that are inhabited with either ethnic Serbs/Montenegrins be parts of their neighbors and then places like Mala Prespa,Golo Brdo,Pustec etc be part of Macedonia,but also the south where Greeks live part of Greece ? then we can peacefuly exchange this lands and build walls around us.
So we can finish with demands.
Or do you think that US or some other will go in war for "greater Albania".

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## Balkanite

> I will say that she is crazy and even more dangerous than any nationalists.
> Macedonia and Kosovo will "unite" with Albania? For this to happen we will witness a bloodshed of enormous proportion and probably a third Balkan war.
> More over Albanians in Macedonia at least vast majority of them don't want this, nor do they want war,we saw that when Kumanovo conflict happened.
> 
> 
> If you ask me in the first place i want a swap of teritory if that's what you wish? Let them secede and let part of Albania that are inhabited with either ethnic Serbs/Montenegrins be parts of their neighbors and places like Mala Prespa,Golo Brdo,Pustec etc be part of Macedonia,but also the south in Greece ? then we can peacefuly exchange this lands and build walls around us.
> So we can finish with demands.
> Or do you think that US or some other will go in war for "greater Albania" well in my opinion they took Kosovo and hold they need,they care less for anything else,even Albanians their biggest supporters in the region mean nothing,they knew why you "support" them.


That is an opinion of course. Now whos opinion is getting most support in the western world of academics? Maria Eftimiou or yours?  :Laughing: 
Move to Iran or North Korea if you don't like how westerners think.

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## Milan.M

> That is an opinion of course. Now whos opinion is getting most support in the western world of academics? Maria Eftimiou or yours? 
> Move to Iran or North Korea if you don't like how westerners think.


What "westerners" think?
What that lady has to do with them. 
Who want war right now? only some people without brain certainly not westerners.

I don't need to move anywhere i am where i am,and i like it here,enjoy in Ireland or whenever you will feel happy.
You might suit better in Iran or north Korea however.

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## Balkanite

> What "westerners" think?
> What that lady has to do with them. 
> Who want war right now? only some people without brain certainly not westerners.
> 
> I don't need to move anywhere i am where i am,and i like it here,enjoy in Ireland or whenever you will feel happy.
> You might suit better in Iran or north Korea however.


Hehe, you liked my north korea thing didn't you. Thats why you took exactly what i said, and repeated it  :Laughing: 
And yes it is easy to say that Maria Eftimiou doesn't have a brain. But shouldn't you get some kind of diploma to be able to be taken seriously on these matters?
Or else youre just another conspiracy theorist.

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## Sakattack

> When did i bully anyone with their English? I commented on their poor way of expressing themselves, because they came with no good argumentation and because half of their messages were nonsense!





> *Seriously, do you write your post's while blindfolded?*I have to* decode every post* you make. *I don't get paid* to interpret your posts. 
> Are you intentionally trying to make your statements as ambiguous as possible, in the hope that people won't have *the patience to decode your meaningless post*, and in the end just give you the last word?AT LEAST WRITE SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY, THAT IS THE LEAST YOU CAN DO *WHEN EDUCATED PEOPLE ACTUALLY SPEND THEIR TIME TRYING TO TEACH YOU SOMETHING*!




If not bullying, then for sure close. If not a humiliation attempt, then for sure close. ]

Hmmm, let me think. Actually yes, bullying it is.





> *And i did not at one single point say that anyone should take land from anyone*. I was just citing to you what your own greek academics are saying on this matter. As i said earlier, i don't care which territories should belong to whom. I live in Ireland.




*



...albanians in greece, albanians in fyrom, albanians in preshevo valley, albanians in montenegro.
Eventually al these areas will come home to where they belong :)

...So within a year or two we will see northern greece become albanian again


**
*
*coughs* 





> I was only pointing out the fact that the court in Hague will do something about the Cham Issue of northern greece in the near future, and other points in the video. And that Maria Eftimiou, an awarded greek academic, is saying the same thing.


No, you said much more than that.




> I don't know what albanians say about the matter. All i am saying is *what the official Greece is saying itself.* So talk to your ministry of education if you don't like what they teach the students.
> And if you don't like the reality, then close your eyes, my friend :)


It's not "official Greece", it's just one academic. Try to figure that out. 
The students in a secular environment can be taught literally EVERYTHING. That's the key actually for success: to learn how to interpret, to filter and to end to your conclusions. 

Reality is a big heavy world. Objective truths is another one. I know how to handle it and am seeking for it. Do the same.

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## Balkanite

> Some things


Okay, let's say that your own award winning Athenian greek university teacher is just teaching the greek students "anything"  :Laughing: 
Seriously, go speak to the Ministry of Education, not me. I couldn't care less what happens between the borders of Greece and Albania. I was just pointing out what greek scholars are saying, and that i partially agree with them. 
She is a much better alternative that labnian or greek ultra-nationalists :)

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## Sakattack

> Okay, let's say that your own award winning Athenian greek university teacher is just teaching the greek students "anything" 
> Seriously, go speak to the Ministry of Education, not me. *I couldn't care less* what happens between the borders of Greece and Albania. I was just pointing out what greek scholars are saying, and that i partially agree with them. 
> She is a much better alternative that labnian or greek ultra-nationalists :)


Of course. Students, don't only have the right, but actually should be taught every aspect especially when it comes to controversial subjects. What is so... funny and... unbelievable? You live in the western world, right? 

As for the bold, MEGA-LOL. 

Dude, almost pissed my pants!  :Laughing:

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## Balkanite

> Of course. Students, don't only have the right, but actually should be taught every aspect especially when it comes to controversial subjects. What is so... funny and... unbelievable? You live in the western world, right? 
> 
> As for the bold, MEGA-LOL. 
> 
> Dude, almost pissed my pants!


She is only teaching them this version of history. Because it is the only one accepted by serious scholars :)
So no, your Greek state is not teaching their students about your delusions :)

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## Sakattack

Whenever you figure out the difference between State and University, come again. 

Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

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## LABERIA

No one asks to change the boundaries or things of that kind. What the Balkans have to do is to look at Brussels and not towards Moscow. The second is justice and respect on ethnic minorities. If there is no justice for the crime of the past, we are back on the starting point, conflicts are inevitable. When it comes to respect for minorities, Albania and Kosova are an example to be followed by other Balkan countries.

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## LABERIA

> I have been following you from the beginning of this (one more, God...) totally meaningless flame war. It's very funny, though, to call people "nationalists" and to put yourself out of this bag. 
> 
> You obviously belong there. 
> 
> How come that somebody who OPENLY CLAIMS foreign territory, as you did in one of those first posts of yours about the European borders, is not an ultra nationalist? 
> 
> You continue to spam us again and again with this *Efthimiou lady (don't know her). Nihilist scientists are kinda common in Greece, I would say proportionally the same as the nationalistic ones.* In any case, what a single person says, it's not the Bible. Not happy to explain this to an adult. 
> 
> Funny how you try to play mother Teresa though and state that you hope for peace and smooth neighboring relations between Albanians and Greeks, when in first place you threw a million accusations on your beloved neighbors and want to keep for yourself some 1/5 of your beloved neighbors' land. (you did the same with FYROM, from whom you want nothing less than the WHOLE of their land, LOL, and of course from - no brainer - Serbia regarding Kosovo). What an openminded lad with the best of intentions! Amazed! 
> ...


There is an contradiction in your words. If you don't know her, you can not take conclusions. 
She is one of the most important Greek scholars and an important expert about the Greek Revolution. She has study in Sorbone, France. It's time to give an end to this things, Fallmerayer is a criminal an idiot, etc, Efthimiou is nihilist, this is leftist, this is jewish spy, another one is retard. Sometimes i have the impression that half of the Greece are leftist and half are Jewish. Of course this is not true but this is how you greeks describe your people. It's time to accept the history as it is without the glasses of Megali Ideas. You have to show respect for your scholars and of course for your institutions:




> Who is Maria Efthimiou?
> 
> http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/culture-art...on-in-teaching
> 
> *Maria Efthimiou: Awarded for her dedication in teaching*
> 
> For the 23rd consecutive year, the institution of “best academic performance” was awarded to History professor Maria Efthimiou, for her dedication in teaching.
> 
> The President of the Hellenic Republic, Karolos Papoulias, gave an honorary award to professor Maria Efthimiou, professor of History and Archeology at the University of Athens.
> Maria Efthimiou teaches World History and Greek History of the Turkish occupation period. During the past seven years she teaches history in Municipalities, cultural centers, jails and rehabilitation centers, taking part in the free education that the University of Athens offers. Up to now, she has taught more than 15 thousand students.

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## spartan owl

what you do is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority or argumentum ad verecundiam .Efthimiou is not even a permanent professor but a substitute professor.
On the other hand the vice minister of education who did not only studied in sorbone but he was a teacher at sorbone claims just the opposite, and he goes further by saing that the albanians agreed to change their school books because what they claimed about the chams were bullshits.
είχαμε συναντήσει ήδη τους Αλβανούς για να αλλάξουν τα βιβλία τους και μας έκανε ευχάριστη έκπληξη ότι οι Αλβανοί είχαν φέρει ήδη πολύ διορθωμένα τα βιβλία τους, αφαίρεσαν αυτά τα οποία λένε, τα φρικαλέα για τους Τσάμηδες.

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## Sakattack

Thanks LAB for giving me a second big laugh for today. 

(I still look forward for the time that some ultranationalist greek step in here and finally start this war flame with you. This thing that you ask for everytime. The lower the level, the bigger the pop corn bag  :Laughing:  )

Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

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## Balkanite

> είχαμε συναντήσει ήδη τους Αλβανούς για να αλλάξουν τα βιβλία τους και μας έκανε ευχάριστη έκπληξη ότι οι Αλβανοί είχαν φέρει ήδη πολύ διορθωμένα τα βιβλία τους, αφαίρεσαν αυτά τα οποία λένε, τα φρικαλέα για τους Τσάμηδες.


This is an English forum my friend

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## LeBrok

Doesn't the title of this thread seems "a bit" ironic now?

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## Balkanite

> Doesn't the title of this thread seems "a bit" ironic now?


I'll agree with you on that. Very much indeed..
At least it is keeping the feuds away from the serious posts.
I actually didn't think people would be offended by me uploading a video by a greek scholar who actually proposes a theory which actually in the middle of the nationalistic albbnian version and the nationalistic greek versions.
But apparently one has to agree either with greek nationalists, or albanian nationalists if you want anyone on your side.
Nationalistic greeks say that only 10-20% of greece were albanians. Nationalistic albanians claim 60-70%
Maria Eftimiou(in the video) who is a greek (non-nationalistic) scholar, and she says 40%, which is in between the two nationalistic delusions.

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## Yetos

@ Balkanite

*first of all you are not an Arvanitis,*

I know Arvanites well.
I am from the Clan that liberated Arvanitan part of Euboia.
and When Arvanites were Free, my Clan was still under Ottoman empire.

The Greek state never touch a piece of land of Arvanites,
in fact encouraged them in Universities, academias, and military.

So you are not an Arbanite,

WHAT YOU ARE THEN?

you are either a Cham
either a Dudumis
either a Haldoupis,

All the above served Ottoman army,
had Turkish identity, 
and also had priviledges,
Most of them were exchanged at 1920-23 by an international treaty,
Those who accepted Greek nationality stayed,
the ones who stayed and at WW2 start problem attacking Greek villages under the umbrella of occupators,
the known Chams of Saloufa and Xyllia is a case closed,

As for Eythymioy reward
it is clearly for new methods of teaching
a reward given every year to teachers that promote new methods of teaching,
dedicated to Xanthopoulos, the First Greek teacher- Physicist that manage to do all his lessons with personal computer for every student at an amphitheatro.

*So the reward has nothing to do with she teaches, neither what she says, neither about the video.


about Kossovo and Albania and Fyrom

USA senator Rhurabaker* said before Eythymioy at Albania TV about the Big Albania and the plan of USA for Balkans,*

then Timothy Less* a geopolitical strategies analyst expand the plan
3 great powers North of Greece,

1 Greater Albania
2 Greater Serbia
3 Greater Croatia

I suggest read the thread Balkanian dissagreements

I wrote about that plan,
but it is a plan.
We do not know if it will come true,
cause Monte Negro is already at NATO,

Do you know the whole plan?

*So Eythymiou tell us nothing.
*

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## Balkanite

> @ Balkanite
> 
> *first of all you are not an Arvanitis,*
> 
> either a Dudumis
> either a Haldoupis,


Nice. You ran out of argumentation, so you turn to racism and harrasment?

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## Balkanite

> *
> 
> USA senator Rhurabaker* said before Eythymioy at Albania TV about the Big Albania and the plan of USA for Balkans,


No, Maria Eftimiou said it in 2011, Dana Rohrabacher said it in 2016.
So Actually that just proves that the things Eftimiou said are beginning to come true.

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## Yetos

> No, Maria Eftimiou said it in 2011, Dana Rohrabacher said it in 2016.
> So Actually that just proves that the things Eftimiou said are beginning to come true.


oh boy,

and I am still talking with you,
search books from 2002
and a papper from Banja Luka with date March 2009
the plan is named amberfox2, and has to do with restabilizing or unstabilizing balkans after the ex-Yugoslavia collapse,
so foreign (non balkan) powers gain more control.

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## Balkanite

> so foreign (non balkan) powers gain more control.


Foreign powers already have the power of the balkans. No plans will change that.
The only thing that can change that, is if Albanians, Romanians and Greeks put their differences aside and start acting as united balkanites.
As long as the world can keep us in this state of hostility against each other, we will never get as much power as the balkans had 2000 years ago.

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## Yetos

> Foreign powers already have the power of the balkans. No plans will change that.


I stay on that,
and expand,
you can now search and realize what is going on happening at Balkans and Turkey, same time?
that is a good start to analyze,
start with amber fox 2,
and try to see also the Albanian desicion of high counsil about the oil treaty among Greece Italy and Albania.
there you will start realize what is going on today, at Aimos.
stabiling means less troops, destabilizing mean more troops,

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## Bergin

I have no interest in this dispute. So I want to understand a bit the facts.

I watched that video for the first time yesterday (thanks balkanite). I don't care how famous or infamous this professor is.
I care if the facts (not the interpretations) are true. Her interpretation in terms of borders I will not take as science but as opinion - so no facts. 

Please, my greek friends, are the facts she mentions true (documents she mentions and their text)?
For me she is talking about the history of modern Greece, and the contribution of arvanitas at that time to the creation of the state. 

Honestly I am proud that some albanian-origined people made such a contribution to the creation of the state (depending on our answer).

Did they get sufficient credit, over credit, no credit? Is there any Greek contributor in the creation of Albania that we are forgetting to give credit? 

For me these are the relevant information, because the will determine Our future relations. 

Best

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## A. Papadimitriou

> I have no interest in this dispute. So I want to understand a bit the facts.
> 
> I watched that video for the first time yesterday (thanks balkanite). I don't care how famous or infamous this professor is.
> I care if the facts (not the interpretations) are true. Her interpretation in terms of borders I will not take as science but as opinion - so no facts. 
> 
> Please, my greek friends, are the facts she mentions true (documents she mentions and their text)?
> For me she is talking about the history of modern Greece, and the contribution of arvanitas at that time to the creation of the state. 
> 
> Honestly I am proud that some albanian-origined people made such a contribution to the creation of the state (depending on our answer).
> ...


I'm not sure you have no interest but I'll accept it.
Why do you write 'arvanitas' and not 'arvanites'? Does it make any difference to you?
What is true is that Arvanites have made a big impact in Attica(apart from Athens), S. Euboea and NE Peloponnese and a few islands near Attica and smaller elsewhere. Some were important for the revolution, some irrelevant.
Their language is supposed to be more closely related to Tosk Albanian, often with more Greek elements. You can see the greek elements of Suliote Albanian for yourself if you read Botsaris' dictionary which exists online.
They get credit but as Hellenes not as Shqiptars since they participated in the creation of modern Hellenic nation.

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## Bergin

> 1 - I'm not sure you have no interest but I'll accept it.
> Why do you write 'arvanitas' and not 'arvanites'? Does it make any difference to you?
> 
> 2 - They get credit but as Hellenes not as Shqiptars since they participated in the creation of modern Hellenic nation.




1. Thank you for the acceptance. No I don't care about a letter. And you are right, the correct English version is Arvanites.

2. Yes Arvanites are Greek (Hellenic if you prefer) - no doubt, we are talking of centuries. Similarly, the Arberesh in Italy are Italian - no doubt. 

Am I wrong to conclude that modern Hellenes have an Arvanites component that would in a certain way act as a bridge between our countries? Similarly we do have Greek speaking Albanians that should also reinforce that bridge. 

Than why are 'we' fighting? 
I will try to put my efforts to establish the bridge. 
Where will you put yours?

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## LABERIA

> I'm not sure you have no interest but I'll accept it.
> Why do you write 'arvanitas' and not 'arvanites'? Does it make any difference to you?
> What is true is that Arvanites have made a big impact in Attica(apart from Athens), S. Euboea and NE Peloponnese and a few islands near Attica and smaller elsewhere. Some were important for the revolution, some irrelevant.
> Their language is supposed to be more closely related to Tosk Albanian, often with more Greek elements. You can see the greek elements of Suliote Albanian for yourself if you read Botsaris' dictionary which exists online.
> They get credit but as Hellenes not as Shqiptars since they participated in the creation of modern Hellenic nation.


I want to explain something here. Suliotes were not Arvanites. Arvanites are Albanians who migrated from South Albania, i.e. Epir in Greece(there are also some Ghegs from North Albania among them). To put it simple, Kolokotronis was Christian Arvanite. Ali Farmaki was a Muslim Arvanite. Marko Boçari and the rest of Suliotes were Albanians, Christian Çams.

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## Balkanite

> What is true is that Arvanites have made a big impact in Attica(apart from Athens), S. Euboea and NE Peloponnese and a few islands near Attica and smaller elsewhere. Some were important for the revolution, some irrelevant.


Then i don't see why we were arguing to start with. We are claiming the same thing. It is just the details that we don't agree completely on. But that should not lead to such a big war as have been going on all day. It is normal that people disagree on details like if it was 30%, 40% or 50% Arvanites in the newly found Greek state.
But i am glad that i can see both an albanian and a greek who can meet halfway. This makes my day :)

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## A. Papadimitriou

I don't believe that we should fight but, personally, without claiming purity, I don't have any *known* Arvanite ancestor. 

Some things are complex though. I don't believe the average Greek will ever feel close to a Muslim Albanian (although I know that they are quite secular and often semi non-practising, especially in Albania).

I liked the idea of a Balkan federation, although it is not realistic. Greece should have good relations with Romania and Bulgaria first, as things are now.

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## Yetos

> I have no interest in this dispute. So I want to understand a bit the facts.
> 
> I watched that video for the first time yesterday (thanks balkanite). I don't care how famous or infamous this professor is.
> I care if the facts (not the interpretations) are true. Her interpretation in terms of borders I will not take as science but as opinion - so no facts. 
> 
> Please, my greek friends, are the facts she mentions true (documents she mentions and their text)?
> For me she is talking about the history of modern Greece, and the contribution of arvanitas at that time to the creation of the state. 
> 
> Honestly I am proud that some albanian-origined people made such a contribution to the creation of the state (depending on our answer).
> ...


Bergin

some facts about Arbanites and Arberesh,

the first wave is a smal army part of General Maniakis who came from Magna Grecia to Epidamnos and from there revolt against Con/polis,
that is known as the Arbereshides of Korone (Corona),
General Maniakis died outside Thessaloniki, 
a small part moved to south Italy San Demetrio di Corona, Pianna dei Greci (Hora) Sikelia etc etc
The true Arberesh
*The true Arvanites* came after 1204 4rth Crusade and before 1240 invited by the Latin rulers of Ducchy of Athens,
they are the ones around Theba and Athens, 
from there expand to surrounding islands like Euboia Spetses etc,

the Arvanites of Nauplion went by invitation of Ottomans few centuries later.

*the above are the true Arvanites,
*
*others*

The Souliotes, and other Clans
the Souliotes is a mix of Albanians Slavs Greeks etc who served Kastrioti,
they moved south to Epirus and create a confederation of Villages, 

the Lalla-ioi 
the worst sworn enemy of Greeks.
they came after the Orlov's revolt by High Gate (Sultan) order and slain Greeks and Arvanites
their attrocities stayed in History.

The ArvantoVlachs, like the Ginides The Tositses the Remioi (Remeni)
they are mostly Aromani from South Albania who moved south for religious mainly reasons,
they stayed at Epirus and Thessaly and Aetolia Acarnania, they moved after the destruction of Moschopolis till after 1860 (new lands)
their language is mostly Aromanian with Albanian and Greek

the Mellioi the Zaziakes etc
Greeks and Aromani from central Albania above Epirus around Tirana and Dyrrachion
they had strong Albanian vocabulary
at Makedonia Thessaly after 1770 and 1860

there are also few Greeks from Elbasan area,
can not remember family/clan names
if remember correct Damales or Dumales etc


now if there is any contribution to Albanian state creation

I will answer only 3

1 If Greece did not manage to liberate her shelf, surely Ottoman empire will be all over the land.
so considering that Greek revolt and then St Stephan treaty etc etc and last Albania, 
I think it is a good thought to realize what it was,

2 the time that Albanian major politician was with the Dilemma neo-Turks or Sultan
a young Albanian studdied in Greece,
That man is major mind of Albania away from Ottoman
His Name is *Ismael Kenan Vlore*, I suggest read his newspapper, especially the 2nd one.

3 If Greeks did not manage to take Μπιζανι (Bizani or Mpizani) from the Germans/Turks
Albania would not have the Support of Austria and rest to become indepented 

on controversary,
what contribution had Albania ( Not Arvanites) to Greek revolt

1 Lalla-ioi
the known ones from their atrocities

2 Omer Vryone 

3 Raep aga

4 Bekiar Bey

you want me to tell more names?

that is something that Balkanite can not understand.

so I watched Eythymiou many times,
*and believe me I know when she is lying,
and when says the truth,*
so do not tell me about a video that is not an official work of her.
but a speach on a gathering.

I suggest read this bellow and you will understand more
it happened like yesterday or 2 days before.

the Battle of Lalla, sorry but is only in few languages
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C...AC%CE%BB%CE%B1

the father Kolokotronis was the main enemy of Lalla, his name is synonym to anti-Lalla 
How come Eythymioy claim that Kolokotronis was 'brother' of Lallaioi

also read about the battle of Steno-Trikorfo at 10-12 June 1779
with Μαυρογενης (Morosini) and kolokotronis

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## Bergin

> I don't believe that we should fight but, personally, without claiming purity, I don't have any *known* Arvanite ancestor. 
> 
> Some things are complex though. I don't believe the average Greek will ever feel close to a Muslim Albanian (although I know that they are quite secular and often semi non-practising, especially in Albania).
> 
> I liked the idea of a Balkan federation, although it is not realistic. Greece should have good relations with Romania and Bulgaria first, as things are now.


None is saying that you should have Arvanite ancestors, just that Arvanites culture is part of the modern Hellenic culture and as such you are indirectly influenced by it. What I mean that you are prod of the fustanella too (dont know the word in Greek). Maybe I am wrong.



Yes things are complex, and I honestly do appreciate you directness. Will try to correspond to that: Albanian muslims (by denomination or by choice) are relatively tepid of Greeks, they wouldn't mind mingling with Greeks in the big world. 
Catholic Albanians generally are pretty cold of Greeks (and Turks), because they consider them oriental. Typically balcanic to like what is far and dis-deign what is close.


Well this is the last time I get involved in such topics and already spent to much worthy time. Enjoy the fights guys.

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## Bergin

Yetos, let us try to remember the good things of each other and not the bad ones. That is a choice.
I am out of this topic because it saddens me a lot.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> None is saying that you should have Arvanite ancestors, just that Arvanites culture is part of the modern Hellenic culture and as such you are indirectly influenced by it. What I mean that you are prod of the fustanella too (dont know the word in Greek). Maybe I am wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes things are complex, and I honestly do appreciate you directness. Will try to correspond to that: Albanian muslims (by denomination or by choice) are relatively tepid of Greeks, they wouldn't mind mingling with Greeks in the big world. 
> Catholic Albanians generally are pretty cold of Greeks (and Turks), because they consider them oriental. Typically balcanic to like what is far and dis-deign what is close.
> 
> 
> Well this is the last time I get involved in such topics and already spent to much worthy time. Enjoy the fights guys.


In the islands people didn't wear the fustanella and even in Epirus there were people who wore pants. I don't know the correlation with ethnic affiliations or percentages etc. The 'French (=pro-France) Party' of Kolettis who was a Vlach was called 'Party of the fustanella'. So, various people wore it. To be frank, it isn't something that I consider important culturally. We are product of various things including Western cultural influence. Some regions may have more Anatolian or Venetian or Slavic influence etc

I like Epirus culturally. It's music more than anything else. But also the music of Greeks from Smyrna, for example. And concerning language the most interesting dialects are the Southeastern ones and Pontic Greek.

Yes, I am aware of what Catholic Albanians think. I believe there are Greeks that don't know about their existence. And genetically they are more NW but I don't believe that's something to be proud about really.

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## Nik

Actually as a Catholic Albanian (well my background as I'm not religious) are not genetically more NW at all. It's there where you find some of the highest concentrations of E-V13, J2b, and R1b. I don't even know if other haplogroups are present among the Catholic tribes.

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## Fatherland

Ghegs of Catholic or Muslim faith are no different autosomally. Nobody mixed with racial outsiders.

Most Muslim Ghegs are since the 17th to 19th century(when most of the conversions underwent) converts from the Catholic faith and some from Orthodox.

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## Diomedes

OP is trying to make a case here, although he does not have the power to do so. Unfortunately he lacks many valuable information and intel to proceed with his case (or he actually tries to mis-inform us by just mentioning only a part of the truth. His rhetoric points out that more than half of Greeks are actually Albanians. This is not the case. Yes, they were Albanian speaking people who came down after the invitation of the Byzantine Emperor, but this does not mean that Greeks were totally annihilated in the first place and that the newcomers found a bare land. 

Regarding old wounds between the two countries, I suggest for the full implementation of the Corfu Agreement. Northern Epirus has to return to Greece, where it ethnically belongs.

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## Yetos

> OP is trying to make a case here, although he does not have the power to do so. Unfortunately he lacks many valuable information and intel to proceed with his case (or he actually tries to mis-inform us by just mentioning only a part of the truth. His rhetoric points out that more than half of Greeks are actually Albanians. This is not the case. Yes, they were Albanian speaking people who came down after the invitation of the Byzantine Emperor, but this does not mean that Greeks were totally annihilated in the first place and that the newcomers found a bare land. 
> .


not by Byzantine emperror but by Latin ruler of Ducchy of Athens
after 4rth crusade Λατινοκρατια

de la Roche Family Burgundian nobility

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## Diomedes

Thanks for providing this info. I thought it was a Byzantine Emperor. 




> not by Byzantine emperror but by Latin ruler of Ducchy of Athens
> after 4rth crusade Λατινοκρατια
> 
> de la Roche Family Burgundian nobility

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## Dibran

> Yes, it is so obvious how some users start warmongering as soon as their beliefs are compromised.
> I actually though that a lecture by an acknowledged academic would make them see things more clearly. But it is like, if a theory does not meet their political agendas, they suddenly turn blind and deaf all at once.
> 
> And this video actually is the most realistic one in my opinion. Because she neither agrees with albanian nationalists, nor with greek nationalists. She just states cold numbers and fact, and recites actual historical memoirs.
> 
> But for the greek nationalists, it is easier to demonize Maria Eftimiu than to admit that they are wrong.
> 
> Luckily for all of us, neither the greek nationalists, nor the albanian ones, have any authority to write history anymore. So i believe that eventually people like Maria will emerge as the dominant ones, both in the greek academic stage, and the albanian academic stage :)
> 
> ...



Its a hope that all see such civility as a benefit to progress of relations rather than a detriment. Sadly this balkan thick headedness seems to be common amongst all balkan peoples. They even do it against their own people who speak reason as you do.

It is actions that dictate the man, not the nation, the blood, or the language. Sadly this is something many of our peoples dont want to understand.

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