# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Where did haplogroup T first originate ( 2nd Poll with Expanded options )

## Alpenjager

Allowed multiple choice (This option doesn't seems to work). Thanks for your participation.

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## LeBrok

Enigma to me. Where is the highest diversity of T?

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## Alpenjager

> Enigma to me. Where is the highest diversity of T?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

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## Sile

> Allowed multiple choice (This option doesn't seems to work). Thanks for your participation.


I can agree with all 4 choices

but the T Ftdna project state:

*the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread. 
*
IMO, it is where bactria is on the link below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria

so, it would be the areas Bactrian, Tajik and Kirghiz is today

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## LeBrok

Maybe it showed up in Near East with Caucasian or S-Indian admixture?

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## Thorbjorn

Am I understanding correctly that T probably originated somewhere in Central Asia and then migrated west (the way the Proto-Indoeuropeans are said to have spread out), sort of settling in the Near East area? I think the highest concentration is in the Northeast Africa area. That may be too simplistic. Sicily looks like it has a good representation. I myself am T1a1a, Sicilian on my father's side.

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## Sile

> Am I understanding correctly that T probably originated somewhere in Central Asia and then migrated west (the way the Proto-Indoeuropeans are said to have spread out), sort of settling in the Near East area? I think the highest concentration is in the Northeast Africa area. That may be too simplistic. Sicily looks like it has a good representation. I myself am T1a1a, Sicilian on my father's side.


The Armenian DNA ftdna project has this ................although a bit old now

 * Haplogroup T, formerly know as K2, has two branches, T1a & T1b, and is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and West Africa as can be seen in this  MAP. Its origins and spread are still mysterious but we are slowly getting more clarity as can be seen in this new large and relatively slow-to-load  MAP. The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe. 

This is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation." 

*So you would be from the T1a group and myself from the T1b group...............the map below ( also from the site ) while accurate is again oldish

http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAP...mapupdated.png

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## Thorbjorn

> The Armenian DNA ftdna project has this ................although a bit old now
> 
>  *[snip]
> 
> *So you would be from the T1a group and myself from the T1b group...............the map below ( also from the site ) while accurate is again oldish
> 
> http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAP...mapupdated.png


You've come through again, thanks.  :Good Job:  

This may be the stuff of a historical fiction novel from my overactive imagination: if T did originate in Central Asia, maybe several men from one family went their separate ways, going north and south, developing new subclades as time passed. 

I know, I know... fiction.  :Wink:

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## Gedalyah

West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.

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## Alpenjager

> West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.


This information is outdated. You need to do a little bit of research. The Spencer's Phoenician claim is now proved to be wrong, this claim was pure speculation. K2-M70 is equivalent to T1a but not to T-M184.

You need to update your sources.

Please read to Mendez et al 2011 "The affiliation of the Jefferson haplotype to T1a and the absence of closely related haplotypes (zero to two step mutations away) in the network supports the hypothesis that this haplotype belongs to an ancient rare European Y-chromosome lineage rather than to lineages that recently migrated to Europe from the Near East."

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## Gedalyah

This branch of T has its roots in North Africa and has travelled into Spain and up the Atlantic coast to Britain and Ireland. President Thomas Jefferson's paternal line probably belongs to this group. Feel free to contact Gareth Henson
Administrator, Y-DNA Haplogroup T Project.

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## Gedalyah

Exciting news for members of the T-M184 Haplogroup!

With assistance from Gareth Henson, Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of our new T-M184 SNP Pack with a comprehensive list of the essential SNPs for this branch of the T-M184 Haplogroup. The purpose of this test is to identify your terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind.
​During the past few years, the number of SNPs on our tree has increased dramatically. While we are confident you are in Haplogroup T-M184 or a downstream subgroup, you now have the opportunity to expand the depth of your Haplogroup much further with this exclusive test. This test can help you refine your subclade. If you are not sure whether or not this is the right test for you, we recommend contacting the T Haplogroup Project Administrators.

Click the button below to sign in to your kit. Navigate to advanced orders by clicking the Upgrade button at the top of your myFTDNA account page, and be one of the first customers to get the T-M184 SNP Pack at our introductory beta price of $99! Once this beta run is filled, the price will change to $119.

Note to Big Y users: This message is purely informational and you should not purchase this SNP pack unless it includes markers not included in your Big Y test. Please consult your Haplogroup Administrator to see if this SNP pack is right for you.

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## Gedalyah

Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

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## Gedalyah

Issa clan in Somalia has over 80% T-M184 the most in the world and we aren't talking about test sample sizes of 2 people or a small hand full.

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## Gedalyah

After 10 post I can send all the links and photos to West Asia or North Africa scattered throughout the several continents Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Europe, and Australia found at level amongst all Indigenous Aboriginal of not only Europe, but it's ancient everywhere not only Europe it Himalaya.

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## Gedalyah

is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."

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## Gedalyah

The worldwide distribution of haplogroup T is spotty with some small areas of greater-than-average concentrations. T1a has a more southerly bias from the Near East to Europe and North Africa. T1b has a more northernly bias from the Near East through the Russian plains to Northern Europe.

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## Gedalyah

11) I will start with this can you explain 
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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## Gedalyah

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults This test 0% in Germany

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## Gedalyah

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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## Gedalyah

T - The Y-DNA Haplogroup T (former K2) Project- Background
Administrators
Gareth Henson [email protected] , Group Administrator
[email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
[email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Hovann Simonian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Peter Hrechdakian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
Background
** IMPORTANT MESSAGE APRIL 2014. FOLLOWING THE RELEASE OF THE NEW FTDNA/GENOGRAPHIC HAPLOGROUP TREE THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF NEW SNPS AVAILABLE FOR ORDERING INDIVIDUALLY. FOR GUIDANCE ON WHICH SNP(S) TO ORDER PLEASE FIND YOUR KIT NUMBER ON THE Y-DNA RESULTS PAGE AND LOOK AT THE DESCRIPTION FOR YOUR GROUP. IF YOU ARE UNSURE OF WHICH SNP TO ORDER PLEASE CONTACT THE GROUP ADMINISTRATORS. **


This project welcomes anyone who has been predicted or SNP-tested as Y-Haplogroup T.
Haplogroup T (known as Haplogroup K2 until May 2008) is defined by SNP M184 and is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Most lines in T belong to subgroup T1a defined by SNP M70 which until March 2011 was considered equivalent to M184.
T1a in turn splits into T1a1 (T-L162), T1a2 (T-L131) and T1a3 (T-L1255).
T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.

Recent developments including the Geno 2.0 chip have identified the following major subgroups of T1a:

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)
Most lineages in T will belong to one of these 5 branches. The first two are strictly speaking paragroups and may split into several branches when more data is available.

Thomas Jefferson is believed to have belonged to haplogroup T, based on tests carried out on individuals sharing his paternal line.
For more information on T and the Jefferson family link see:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...08057/ABSTRACT
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6332545

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## Gedalyah

During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated

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## Gedalyah

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults more then Europeans

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## Sile

> West Asia or Near East not north of the Alpine Belt. Spencer Wells, the geneticist that heads the Genographic Project in search of the scientific "Adam"In the film, Spencer Wells indicated that Thomas Jefferson's Y-Chromosome was "Phoenician", Read more: The National Geographic study "Who were the Phoenicians," revealed that Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States belonged to Y-chromosome Haplogroup K2. The quote from Wells that follows is the scientific explanation of what was discovered in studying Jefferson's DNA.


you have mis read it.................it is not alpine belt 

it is alpide belt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpide_belt

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## Sile

> This branch of T has its roots in North Africa and has travelled into Spain and up the Atlantic coast to Britain and Ireland. President Thomas Jefferson's paternal line probably belongs to this group. Feel free to contact Gareth Henson
> Administrator, Y-DNA Haplogroup T Project.


Thomas Jefferson line arrived in egypt ~9000BC form the northern Levant ...............then went to Spain and then Wales

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## Sile

> Issa clan in Somalia has over 80% T-M184 the most in the world and we aren't talking about test sample sizes of 2 people or a small hand full.


Issa clan or do you mean the DIR clan which originates on the border of ethiopia and somali

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## Sile

> is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."


He said to me , less than a month ago

*the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread.*

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## Sile

> During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated


there has been found 2 x T1a ydna ancient samples 7000 years old 

*Haplogroup T1a (PF5604) has been found in two out of two 7500–6800 ybp individuals from Karsdorf, Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany. Both T1a skeletal remains belong to the Linienbandkeramische Kultur. T1a from Karsdorf constitutes 22.2% of all ancient samples between 7500 and 6800 ybp in Germany. The remainder belong to other clades: 22.2% are H2 carriers from Derenburg, and the remaining 55.6% are G2a bearers from Halberstadt and Derenburg. These ancient specimens' mtDNA haplogroups have been found to be H1*/H1au1b and H46b. Their autosomal ancestral components also consist of around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian.[11]
*
* The Karsdorf site is located in the valley of Unstrut, Burgenlandkreis, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. The slope on which Karsdorf sits is characterized by alluvial loess. The place itself was settled intensively since the earliest phase of the Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in the region. 


*If they are in Germany in this period of time , then where did they come from?

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## Gedalyah

Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA.jpg 700 AD

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## Sile

> During the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age haplogroup T would have been an important (though probably not dominant) lineage among ancient peoples such as Sumerians, the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml 2016 updated


old info .........

I also suggest you ignore any ftdna or 23andme or natgeno , ancestry etc etc, as they are using data of modern people and that alone tells us nothing of the history of that marker or any other marker.

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## Sile

> Maps of Europe’s ancient tribes and Y-DNA.jpg 700 AD


I do not understand what you are saying

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## Gedalyah

vv4jBZR.jpgMap Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 7000 BC

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## Gedalyah

Attachment 8314Attachment 8315Attachment 8316Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 2000 BC - 1227 AD

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## Sile

> vv4jBZR.jpgMap Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 7000 BC


Thats is 8950 years ago

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## Sile

> Attachment 8314Attachment 8315Attachment 8316Map Of Ancient European Tribes and Y-DNA 2000 BC - 1227 AD


the maps do not work ............you need eupedia approval

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## Gedalyah

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults scattered unlike any other DNA

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## Gedalyah

Haplogroup 
T, FTDNA BENNET GREENSPAN Today is Jewish

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## Gedalyah

My Ancestry Results Puerto Rican ' Hebrew Israelite

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## Sile

> Haplogroup 
> T, FTDNA BENNET GREENSPAN Today is Jewish


I do not see what this video is about

*Maybe you are in the religious theory of DNA, so here is a link* 
'
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...ogroup&f=false


Madai, falls into the area where Gareth Henson and the T project people sate as a possible begininng of T after slitting from LT group
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...p_Version2.png

..............................
*but every T ydna has this marker , see below*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_LT

.................................
*This marker as per GeneticAtlas in 2010 states its origins in the Sind valley of North India
*
One should also have this marker which is prior to LT , see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9

.........................

T haplogroup was once called K2

now it is called K1 , because it is older

so K1a = L haplogroup
and
K1b = T haplogroup

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## Gedalyah

Y-DNA haplogroup K-M9 is an old lineage that arose approximately 47,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia not North.

The basal paragroup K* is exceptionally rare, although it has been reported at low frequencies in various parts of Eurasia, Oceania and Africa.

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## Gedalyah

Y-DNA haplogroup LT is an old lineage widely distributed at low concentrations. It was established approximately 30,000-40,000 years ago, probably in South Asia or West Asia not North of Alpide

No confirmed cases of the basal paragroup LT* have been identified.

Its descendants are found mainly in populations indigenous to Europe, West Asia, South Asia and Northeast Africa.

L-M20 is found at its highest frequency in Pakistan, Western India, among the Balochs of Afghanistan.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, (especially Somaliland, Djibouti and Ethiopia), Arabia, Iran, some regions in Europe and in Eastern India.

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## Gedalyah

You asked me to please read the only study you said is but have you?
Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

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## Gedalyah

You must read and learn 
Mendez 2011
phylogenetic resolution of the Y chromosome haplogroup tree has led to finer temporal and spatial resolution for studies of human migration. Haplogroup T, initially known as K2 and defined by mutation M70, is found at variable frequencies across West Asia, Africa, and Europe. While several SNPs were recently discovered that extended the length of the branch leading to haplogroup T, only two SNPs are known to mark internal branches of haplogroup T. This low level of phylogenetic resolution has hindered studies of the origin and dispersal of this interesting haplogroup, which is found in Near Eastern non-Jewish populations, Jewish populations from several communities, and in the patrilineage of President Thomas Jefferson. Here we map 10 new SNPs that, together with the previously known SNPs, mark 11 lineages and two large subclades (T1a and T1b) of haplogroup T. We also report a new SNP that links haplogroups T and L within the major framework of Y chromosome evolution. Estimates of the timing of the branching events within haplogroup T, along with a comprehensive geographic survey of the major T subclades, suggest that this haplogroup began to diversify in the Near East -25 kya. Our survey also points to a complex history of dispersal of this rare and informative haplogroup within the Near East and from the Near East to Europe and sub-Saharan Africa. The presence of T1a2 chromosomes in Near Eastern Jewish and non-Jewish populations may reflect early exiles between the ancient lands of Israel and Babylon. The presence of different subclades of T chromosomes in Europe may be explained by both the spread of Neolithic farmers and the later dispersal of Jews from the Near East. Finally, the moderately high frequency (-18%) of T1b* chromosomes in the Lemba of southern Africa supports the hypothesis of a Near Eastern, but not necessarily a Jewish, origin for their paternal line.

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## Gedalyah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenaz 
Hebrew Bible. In the genealogies of the Hebrew Bible, Ashkenaz (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַז 'Aškănaz) was a descendant of Noah. He was the first son of Gomer and brother of Riphath and Togarmah (Genesis 10:3, 1 Chronicles 1:6), with Gomer being the grandson of Noah through Japheth. J2 Haplogroup Ashkenazi Jews don't fit Scripture as does AT,BT,CT,DE,FT, KT,LT, T scattered throughout the 4corners in indigenous peoples Africa Asia Australia America and 1% in Europe, J can't say that.

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## Gedalyah

Look at I to understand J they possible are Esau and K is northern sons of Jacob by way of Abraham F, DE being the Southern sons of Jacob by Shemite origins. Look at the Andaman islands D and K L P, haplogroup T Lemba at 18% this people are not Japheth.

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## Gedalyah

Look at I to understand J they possible are Esau and K is northern sons of Jacob by way of Abraham FT. The Andaman islands D and K L P haplogroup T found in the Lemba this people are not Japheth

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## Angela

We have moved far beyond looking for genetics answers in religious texts. Please read the scientific papers that have been posted upthread.

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## Sile

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenaz 
> Hebrew Bible. In the genealogies of the Hebrew Bible, Ashkenaz (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַז 'Aškănaz) was a descendant of Noah. He was the first son of Gomer and brother of Riphath and Togarmah (Genesis 10:3, 1 Chronicles 1:6), with Gomer being the grandson of Noah through Japheth. J2 Haplogroup Ashkenazi Jews don't fit Scripture as does AT,BT,CT,DE,FT, KT,LT, T scattered throughout the 4corners in indigenous peoples Africa Asia Australia America and 1% in Europe, J can't say that.


I do not care what these religious people say.

the link below is the current y Dna tree for every haplogroup

T haplogroup comes from the K group

https://www.yfull.com/tree/

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## Alpenjager

> is the view of Gareth Henson, administrator of the Haplogroup T project at FTDNA: "I think both T and L originated in the Iraq/Iran region but whereas the branches of L all went in different directions I don't see a similar pattern for T. The main groups are T1a and T1b. Both seem to have spread out together, but T1a shows more variation."


The Gareth's view by November was "Well, the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born." This is his most recent known view.

He have the same information as all of us up to date: One T2 member from Germany, one T2 member from a Flemish colony, one T2 member from the Kura-Araks Basin and one T2 member from Bhutan. This is Two T2 members from the North European Plain, one from the north of the Alpide belt in west Asia and one from the Himalayas. The last word would be when all of them test with BigY or Y-Elite 2.0 and then we will know who of them is most basally splitted.

The T ancestor could have lived anywhere between North European Plain and Himalayas.

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## Rethel

Is there any place, where T1* and T2* can be found together?

T is so scattered, that it could be, that it is Canaanite hg...
Also almost all places where it is, can be explain by known wanderings of them.
But there is to many but, from the other sides, so...

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## Sile

> Is there any place, where T1* and T2* can be found together?
> 
> T is so scattered, that it could be, that it is Canaanite hg...
> Also almost all places where it is, can be explain by known wanderings of them.
> But there is to many but, from the other sides, so...


IMO

LT-L298 (~48000ybp ) where, according to geneticAtlas in 2010 ( if they are correct ) are from Sind-Valley northern India .............I am unsure , but ?

from ~44000ybp T-M184 was created in the upper alpide belt ( I agree with Alpenjager) 

T-M184 split into T2-PH110 branch as well as T-L206 branch

Below are the SNP's for T2 as per isogg T

*T2* _PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433_

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## Alpenjager

> IMO
> 
> LT-L298 (~48000ybp ) where, according to geneticAtlas in 2010 ( if they are correct ) are from Sind-Valley northern India .............I am unsure , but ?
> 
> from ~44000ybp T-M184 was created in the upper alpide belt ( I agree with Alpenjager) 
> 
> T-M184 split into T2-PH110 branch as well as T-L206 branch
> 
> Below are the SNP's for T2 as per isogg T
> ...


This map show pretty well the haplogroup L-M20 distribution:

Haplogroup L-M20 map.jpg

If someone take into account the distribution of both T-M184 and L-M20 basally splitted branches, T2 and L2, none never will though on a "South Asian" origin for LT but instead all points to the same possible area of origin as we can see for T-M184.

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## Gedalyah

T is West Asia or North Africa

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## Alpenjager

> T is West Asia or North Africa


Your posts are being useless. I recomend you to do some research before spitting claims without any sense. Also, you should update your sources and keep away your religious tendences.

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## Gedalyah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GedalYah this is my wiki page . I have been studying Haplogroup T for over 2 years. I recently saw claims of the north of the Aplide belt (Asia)and alpine(Europe) on wiki but no sources have been made public. I have been looking everywhere for this Research claim of new information but nothing, so can you show me what research I have missed. please send link

----------


## Sile

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GedalYah this is my wiki page . I have been studying Haplogroup T for over 2 years. I recently saw claims of the north of the Aplide belt (Asia)and alpine(Europe) on wiki but no sources have been made public. I have been looking everywhere for this Research claim of new information but nothing, so can you show me what research I have missed. please send link


You really need to check the ages ( year formed ) in the T tree in yfull to understand what you say makes no sense.

----------


## halfalp

My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.

----------


## Sile

> My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.


It is confirmed as south caspian area , north of the zargos mountains...............no where near mesopotamia .......along with L 
J2 is caucasus 

And it is *alpide belt* and not *alpine*

cheers

----------


## Alpenjager

> My guess gonna be Mesopotamia, for the last 10'000 years, but i'm not sure, T could also be like J or L ( ??? ) minor haplogroups of basal F,G,H in the Alpin Belt and then after the migration with the neolithic, become a primarly haplogroup.


J is a completly different lineage but is found in the Paleolithic North Europe and Caucasus.
L haplogroup most probably have their origins somewhere between Europe and Caspian sea.
G and H are less closely related than J or I. Most probably G and H first meet T in the early Neolithic.

----------


## Gedalyah

Show any research that uses the word Alpide Belt or North of the Alpine Belt Europe and Himalaya? This is made up. Like I stated I have studied genetics for over two years

----------


## Alpenjager

> Show any research that uses the word Alpide Belt or North of the Alpine Belt Europe and Himalaya? This is made up. Like I stated I have studied genetics for over two years


You go again and again but finally you only hear your own religious voice. So, I wonder why you keep asking compulsively.

Then, go with another try:

1. There is still NO published research on T-M184 (xL206).
2. There is only one T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalaya.
3. Only one T1-L206 sample is used in a unique paper.
4. There are only 4 known T-M184 (xL206) individuals up to date. 3 found in FTDNA (1 of them in YFULL) and the other one is found in the Hallast paper.
5. 4 out of 4 are from North of the Alpide belt: North European Plain, Kura-Araks basin and Himalayas. 
6. "Alpine belt Europe" You have a mess.
7. Two years, Congratulations.

----------


## Megalophias

Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?

----------


## Sile

> Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?


Bhutan is on the humalayan mountains

*Bhutan* (/buːˈtɑːn/; འབྲུག་ཡུལ་ _druk yul_), officially the *Kingdom of Bhutan* (འབྲུག་རྒྱལ་ཁབ་ _druk gyal khap_),[10] is a landlocked country and the second largest Himalayan state in Asia. Located in the Eastern Himalayas, 


As for Kura-Araxes, it is north of the Zargos mountains...and the Zargos mountains are part of the Alpide belt 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C3%BCrtel.png

Looks north of the Alpide belt to me

from:
Cyprus (Troodos Mountains), Taurus Mountains, Zagros Mountains, Makran Highland, Sulaiman Mountains, Karakoram, Himalayas, Patkai, Chin Hills, Arakan Mountains, Andaman and Nicobar Islands in South Asia.

----------


## Gedalyah

Alpide shows up as a misspelling on any spell check lol see for yourself

----------


## Gedalyah

*Kingdom of Bhutan* looks on it but not north of it but what about *Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada 13% or H.O.A. and North Africa, Dir and ISSA? Sir these people are not Europeans.
*
Zagros Mountains are 0°32'29.3%22N+56°36'41.9%22E parallel with Israel FYI

31°29'59.5"N 50°26'35.3"E

----------


## Alpenjager

> Since when is Bhutan north of the Himalayas, or Kura-Araxes Basin north of the Caucasus?


Alpide Belt.jpg I think that is pretty clear. According with the three positions, do you think is most in line with the North of the Alpide belt or instead with the south of the Alpide belt?

----------


## Alpenjager

> *Kingdom of Bhutan* looks on it but not north of it but what about *Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada 13% or H.O.A. and North Africa, Dir and ISSA? Sir these people are not Europeans.
> *
> Zagros Mountains are 0°32'29.3%22N+56°36'41.9%22E parallel with Israel FYI
> 
> 31°29'59.5"N 50°26'35.3"E


Are you understanding what we are talking about here? All haplogroup T members in Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Uttara Kannada and HOA are belonging to subclades of T1a1a-L208. They all are useless to predict T-M184 origin. Because of that we are using the most basal branch known up to date T2-PH110.

----------


## Megalophias

> Alpide Belt.jpg I think that is pretty clear. According with the three positions, do you think is most in line with the North of the Alpide belt or instead with the south of the Alpide belt?


Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.

----------


## Sile

> Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.



?

The map he presented show north of the alpide ...............Iran is north of the alpide, basically the zargos mountains and north of these mountains is the same as north of the alpide belt

Basic principal is that all people populated Mesopotamia from north of the zargos mountains ....................even today's paper of SW-Asia ( arabian peninsula ) states that the ydna of the peninsula came via the Caucasus mountains ............there are ~8500 samples

----------


## Alpenjager

> Why on earth do you insist on describing it in terms of the Alpide belt? Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt, so that is a terrible description. Personally I would call it "Eurasian, very rare". Distribution based on such a small number of samples is mere illusion caused by sample bias.


All haplogroups have been described as better as possible using the available information. Even Spencer Wells with much less evidences claimed 10 years ago that T1a-M70 was of Phoenician origin (not just Levantine, Near Eastern or West Asian) Now proved to be absolutly wrong. Why on earth we shouldn't do it with T-M184?

T-M184 is "Eurasian", yes. And is "very rare", yes. But we can't use the available information to try to predict as better as possible, why? Just because of you? I think is fairly safe crossing all the information available, not just although especially important T2-PH110 but also L-M20 and T1-L206 basal branches together with ancientDNA findings.

----------


## Megalophias

> All haplogroups have been described as better as possible using the available information. Even Spencer Wells with much less evidences claimed 10 years ago that T-M70 was of Phoenician origin (not just Levantine, Near Eastern or West Asian) Now proved to be absolutly wrong. Why on earth we shouldn't do it with T-M184?


Describing its distribution as "north of the Alpide belt" is not describing it as well as possible: it is describing it very badly. 

You can of course do whatever you want, but if you have very little information to go on, then you are likely to be as wrong as Spencer Wells.

----------


## Alpenjager

> Two out of three are *not* north of the Alpide belt


There are 4 samples but three geographical points. Please read the previous posts in this thread.




> Describing its distribution as "north of the Alpide belt" is not describing it as well as possible: it is describing it very badly. 
> 
> You can of course do whatever you want, but if you have very little information to go on, then you are likely to be as wrong as Spencer Wells.


Yes, very badly but I'm satisfied to be in the same line of opinon as Gareth Henson, administrator of FTDNA haplogroup T project, who points to some places in the north of the Alpide belt.

Alpide Belt sub.jpg All T2-PH110 known samples: Most basal known branch of T-M184. All L2-L595 known samples: Most basal known branch of L-M20. All T1b known samples: Most basal known T1-L206 branch.

By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)

----------


## Megalophias

> By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)


Thanks. Actually I registered three months ago (after much lurking) and first posted on the Iberomaurusian aDNA thread. Honestly I am just posting now to avoid doing real work.

----------


## Sile

> There are 4 samples but three geographical points. Please read the previous posts in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, very badly but I'm satisfied to be in the same line of opinon as Gareth Henson, administrator of FTDNA haplogroup T project, who points to some places in the north of the Alpide belt.
> 
> Alpide Belt sub.jpg All T2-PH110 known samples: Most basal known branch of T-M184. All L2-L595 known samples: Most basal known branch of L-M20. All L1b known samples: Most basal known T1-L206 branch.
> 
> By the way, curiously you have created your Eupedia account just for post here. A bit suspicious. Of course, you can do what you want. Welcome to the forum Erudite. :)


the only way to show people is to plot the markers via a map the ages as they are listed in Yfull

then you will see the pattern of age and maybe even migration of the T

----------


## Alpenjager

> the only way to show people is to plot the markers via a map the ages as they are listed in Yfull
> 
> then you will see the pattern of age and maybe even migration of the T


The most effective way to predict T-M184 origin is crossing T2 sample distribution vs L2 and T1b samples. Also we could use samples belonging to basal branches of T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 combined.

Alpide Belt subsub.jpg Adding the most basal T1a-M70 samples of L446, PH141, L162, Y11675, Y8614.

----------


## Angela

> Thanks. Actually I registered three months ago (after much lurking) and first posted on the Iberomaurusian aDNA thread. *Honestly I am just posting now to avoid doing real work.*


Join the club. :) 

Your contributions are very astute. Happy to have you.

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## Azzurro

> It is confirmed as south caspian area , north of the zargos mountains...............no where near mesopotamia .......along with L 
> J2 is caucasus 
> 
> And it is *alpide belt* and not *alpine*
> 
> cheers


I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.

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## Megalophias

> Happy to have you.


Thanks! Nice place you've got here.

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## Sile

> I think it is great how dedicated you are to researching the history of T, I am sure that you will find out the answer in future with upcoming ancient dna samples. As for J2, I don't personally think it is Caucasian in origin, and that I believe it formed in the area just south, around the Zagros/Lake Van or Western Iranian plateau.




thanks

today new paper - which I included in another thread states

*The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations. 
*
But lake Van is close enough

In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO

----------


## Azzurro

> thanks
> 
> today new paper - which I included in another thread states
> 
> *The earliest dates, with the oldest differentiations for J2 at 8.4 ka, and J1 at 8.9 ka, show an early divergence between the Caucasus from the rest of the populations. 
> *
> But lake Van is close enough
> 
> In regards to T ............why not be dedicated to my line ..........with a completed YFull ( early Feb 2017 for STR ) I am a new branch along with an eastern Frenchman who is 600 years younger than me ...........an indication my line went north from the Alps ...IMO


My pleasure,

Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.

----------


## Gedalyah

I disagree with North of the Aldipe belt

----------


## Sile

> My pleasure,
> 
> Of course, as am I with J2, I did BigY and transferred my results to Yfull in August, I just got my Str results 2 days ago, J2 has many subclades and I think it hard to pinpoint one exact location for all of them, there is definitely a migration of J2 to the Caucasus. I have formulated for the L210 and Pre-L210 lineages and the down streams, Pre-L210 kits (they have all the upstreams but are negative for L210) seem to be either Lebanese or Syrian, L210 and down streams have a much wider diversity. What did this paper say for T? Haplogroup T fascinates me, I find it a very interesting haplogroup.


It said nothing about T in Arabia

There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:

21 in Armenia
21 in Turkey
13 in Lebanon
7 in Iran
5 in Caucasus
5 in Egypt
3 came from Europe
7 south levant
and 9 others

zero samples are anywhere near my markers.........closest is an Iranian who matches me only in 9 of 12 STR

----------


## Azzurro

> It said nothing about T in Arabia
> 
> There are only 94 samples which are T in the 8500 samples tested:
> 
> 21 in Armenia
> 21 in Turkey
> 13 in Lebanon
> 7 in Iran
> 5 in Caucasus
> ...


That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?

----------


## Sile

> That is very interesting, your branch must be an older branch that went into europe earlier, even at 9 of 12 str that is very distant. Did they test further snps?


If you are asking about mine....then use this thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post498519

----------


## Alpenjager

My first aproach on the LT-L298 origin 49600-41400 ybp, their descendant haplogroup T-M184 45500-39700 ybp their main branches T1-L206 (T1a-M70, T1b(xM70)) and T2-PH110 29300-24500 ybp as well as the L2-M595 25700-20800 ybp subclade of L-M20. I haven't added L1 because should be geographically overlapped by T-M184.
Used samples: 
All known samples belonging to T2-PH110, L2-M595, T1-L206 (xM70) as well as all known samples belonging to basal subclades of T1a-M70. T1a-M70 basal subclades of: Y8614, Y11675, L162, PH141, L446. Samples found here: YFULL, FTDNA haplogroup T project, Hallast14 et al, Frigi05, Mendez11, Jakovski11 among other published papers.

LT-L298 and T-M184 origin.jpg

----------


## Megalophias

Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.

----------


## Alpenjager

> Interesting, where are the T1b samples from? Never heard of that one before.


T1b samples are from:
1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.

----------


## Megalophias

> T1b samples are from:
> 1.1.1 Druzes from Mount Lebanon, Beirut, Lebanon, Assyut Upper Egypt and Iberian-american from Córdoba, Colombia. This could be a first group. 1.1.2 A possible subgroup found in Syria.
> 1.2 A possible second group found among Berbers from Sejnane, Tunisia.
> 2.1 A possible third group and possibly most basally splitted found among Orthodox Christians in Macedonia.


Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?

----------


## Alpenjager

> Thanks! Are these actually confirmed M70- by SNP testing?


Two of them are M70- tested. The others are predicted with very high confidence.

----------


## halfalp

I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.

----------


## Sile

> I can clearly see that the LT or L and T individualy origin in europe, is an eurocentric thing right here... For alpide belt, alpine term is not false, just unusual, in french we say Ceinture Alpine, and english dont have the monopole of terms, neither of scientific behavior. I dont understand, the way you thinking, for you, its like eurasia was a crossroads, where every tribes go on and on, and salute themselves... J haplogroups is wide spread, maybe because he is one of the real neolithic signal, like R1 because they were unusualy nomadic, being nomad in a mountaneous region like iranian plateau and nomad in a flat steppe, its not the same.


Alpine and alpide belt are different

Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt


The zargos mountains is also the divide for the alpide belt

and

Mesopotamia and the fertile crescent people, originate from north of the alpide belt 

Arabian peninsula was populated by haplogroups that originate north of the alpide belt 

the only halpogroups which originate with a *possibility of south* of the alpide belt are under this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE

----------


## halfalp

> Alpine and alpide belt are different
> 
> Basically what we are saying is that when man crossed from Africa through the arabian peninsula , it crossed under the haplogroup termed CF , when haplogroup F was "born" it was born north of the alpide belt. 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89
> 
> So , every haplogroup group which originates from haplogroup F , originates north of the Alpide belt
> 
> 
> ...



What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....

----------


## Sile

> What ?!? Alpine or Alpide belt are the same thing, or you talk something different than me. Your idea of spread of haplogroups is strange. Do you know that a population can have, especially in early upper paleolithic, a large scale of haplogroups, but being a same population ? North of the Alpide Belt in a eurasian context, means the eurasian steppe, so you think every modern humans descending from F-M89 come from the eurasian steppe ? You talk about arabian peninsula, but there is also india. Wich shows clearly the world highest haplogroups and genetic diversification of the world, there is even strange haplogroups, non repertoriate, without specific clade in india. But i was talking, for the recent 10'000 years, where F,G,H are clearly basal eurasian ON the alpide belt ( Anatolia, Iranian Plateau ) and Q, R in the eurasian steppe. I in europe and J around the caucasus in maybe in some pockets. Everything change after, like history show us, migration, demic and cultural diffusion....


Iran is north of the alpide belt, but not irak, nor syria

the azeri and south caucasus are north of the alpide belt

you cannot have J haplogroup created before the creation of F haplogroup

Karafet already stated that R was created in south east asian ..........R1 in and around the himalysas , R2 in South asia..........and R1a and R1b is still being discussed

----------


## halfalp

Zagros and Elbrouz, so south and north of iran, so iran, is the alpide belt, caucasus is alpide belt... Im talkin about the mountaneous belt from pyrennae to himalaya, maybe you talk about a special concept... By the way, when a talk of alpide belt in a eurasian context, im talking about anatolia, caucasus, iran, and all the pamiri-himalayan complexe, not europe or birmania.

----------


## halfalp

And you should not take an statement for granted, even or especially with genetic postulats

----------


## halfalp

For the Origin of R, R1, R2... i think the better proxy for Q, R and later R1 and R2 is still the Pamiro-Himalayan complexe... Afghanistan, Issyk Kul, Central Asia in a large scale... For R1a and R1b the dispersion from central asia is pretty sure, especially for R1a that we found in mesolithic russia context, siberian context, neolithic far east context... ( Yes Iran because Reich team said so ). R1b is most complicated, but if we take on account R1b-V88 in africa who clearly came with neolithic package, and because the Caucasus crossing doesnt make sens for me, especially in early neolithic, i think that an South Turkmenistan, by the Elbrouz Chains or maybe with boat across the caspian... are better theory about the propagation of R1b in west asia, wich is not the same for the pontic steppe, who clearly came from north caspian to volga. Sorry for the 3 posts, Eupedia doesnt let me Edite.

----------


## Azzurro

I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.

----------


## Sile

> I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.




blue = T1a1 branch

green = T1a2 

brown = T1a3

----------


## Salento

> blue = T1a1 branch
> 
> green = T1a2 
> 
> brown = T1a3






> I personally think T originated in the Alpide belt, and that Sile has it right, interestingly too I believe T might have been a major haplogroup of the ancient Mesopotamian peoples, specifically the Sumerians.



The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
I replaced it with .cc

ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???

----------


## Sile

> The domain extension of the pic and link posted was .org
> I replaced it with .cc
> 
> ps I thought that one of the T1a1 branch migrated back in to Europe crossing through Gibraltar and going in to Spain, all the way up in to Wales and England. ???


you mean this T1a1

T-M184 ...sample ID KEB6 genome from Neolithic Kelif el Boroud.Belongs to P77 branch.
M70+, L162+, L208+, Y4119+, CTS2214+, Z709+, Z710+, L906+, Y4984+, P77+
According to the authors, the Neolithic ancient KEB6 individual, belonged to a group that crossed the strait of Gibraltar from Iberian Peninsula to North Africa.
Mtdna is K1a4a1
.
most likely T1a1 went into NW Africa via Iberia ..............I cannot find any , the other way around

----------


## Sile

CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
.
.
*Kit Num: Z909242*
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013
Admix Results (sorted):
#	Population	Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.49
2 West_Med 23.15
3 East_Med 15.44
4 Baltic 11.19
5 West_Asian 10.39
6 Red_Sea 4.00
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 6.318764
2 Spanish_Extremadura @ 10.215214
3 Portuguese @ 10.481634
4 Tuscan @ 10.846835
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.515195
6 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.734688
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.924896
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 12.378675
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 12.674054
10 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.895143
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.278596
12 French @ 14.579446
13 Spanish_Cantabria @ 15.154699
14 Spanish_Aragon @ 16.676853
15 Italian_Abruzzo @ 16.980034
16 Southwest_French @ 16.994125
17 Romanian @ 17.068951
18 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.701933
19 West_Sicilian @ 17.886683
20 Bulgarian @ 18.382051
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Abruzzo +50% Southwest_French @ 4.347123
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Kurdish_Jewish +25% Moldavian @ 1.880900
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.544588
2 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.549791
3 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.550798
4 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.569885
5 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.623649
6 French + Georgian_Jewish + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.627423
7 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.637768
8 East_German + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.684614
9 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Andalucia + Turkish @ 1.693494
10 French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.736794
11 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + Turkish @ 1.755329
12 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.768628
13 Assyrian + Austrian + French_Basque + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.789258
14 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Extremadura + Turkish @ 1.799327
15 Azeri + Portuguese + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.802059
16 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.810573
17 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.839266
18 Austrian + French_Basque + Kurdish_Jewish + Southwest_French @ 1.845582
19 French + Spanish_Cantabria + Spanish_Cantabria + Turkish @ 1.846447
20 Assyrian + French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 1.847161
.
.................................................. ...........................
..
.
*Kit Num: Z909242*
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.79
2 North_European 24.07
3 Caucasus 21.79
4 Gedrosia 6.93
5 Southwest_Asian 6.75
6 Northwest_African 2.46
7 East_African 1.09


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.093848
2 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 7.813148
3 North_Italian_HGDP @ 9.240507
4 TSI30_Metspalu @ 9.336050
5 Tuscan_HGDP @ 11.004959
6 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.903599
7 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 16.008512
8 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 16.823957
9 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 17.353289
10 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 17.928656
11 Romanians_Behar @ 18.356617
12 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 18.680088
13 Greek_Dodecad @ 18.681952
14 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 18.724812
15 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 19.177168
16 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 19.419041
17 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 20.094767
18 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 20.405411
19 Spaniards_Behar @ 20.745586
20 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 20.847435

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Dodecad +50% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 1.859818

----------


## Salento

> CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
> Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
> .
> .
> *Kit Num: Z909242
> *


 *Who is it?* (Ma chi è?) Ancient or Contemporary?
Anyway :) :
_
#Z909242_ _Regional sharing %_ 
1 North-Italy 27.39
2 Portugal&GaliciaAzores 19.61
3 Spain North&East 19.33
4 Spain Central&South 19.02
5 East-Balkan 14.65

----------


## Sile

> *Who is it?* (Ma chi è?) Ancient or Contemporary?
> Anyway :) :
> _
> #Z909242_ _Regional sharing %_ 
> 1 North-Italy 27.39
> 2 Portugal&GaliciaAzores 19.61
> 3 Spain North&East 19.33
> 4 Spain Central&South 19.02
> 5 East-Balkan 14.65


he is from the lombard paper ..............might be born in Szolad as he matches close to 3 other "hungarians" ...........died in Italy
his HEL indicats that he is a Bulgarian
.
his plot is below
.

----------


## Sile

In regards to T-Z19945
its age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance
.
I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex

----------


## Salento

> In regards to T-Z19945 ....


That’s interesting, (thanks Sile}
you wrote:

... “T-Z19945 age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance.
I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex...”...
————-

I edited my original response bc I misread the dates. 



https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Z19945*/

----------


## Sile

> That’s interesting, (thanks Sile}
> you wrote:
> 
> ... “T-Z19945 age is roughly 1460BC by yfull
> placed in the Jura mountains.......due to age, most likely from Helvetii peoples ..........later by Swabians after the Roman disappearance.
> I wonder if samples where found in the Jura caves complex...”...
> ————-
> 
> I edited my original response bc I misread the dates. 
> ...


That is me

----------


## Salento

> That is me


 
Nice, I didn’t know, That’s very CooL !  :Smiling:

----------


## Sile

> CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
> Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
> .
> .
> *Kit Num: Z909242*
> Threshold of components set to 1.000
> Threshold of method set to 0.25%
> Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
> Gedmatch.Com
> ...


as per eurogenes...the closest sample to a Bell Beaker north italian is sample CL23

----------


## Sile

closest Bell beaker north italian to the lombard samples

----------


## Salento

> closest Bell beaker north italian to the lombard samples


A Y Haplo *T1a2* (_T-L446_), is the closest *Bell Beaker to a North Italian*. (Lombard sample CL23).
As evidenced by this data.

_do not hesitate_ ✌

----------


## Sile

T person which has no SNP for T1 or T2 branch and is the only one in all the T haplogroup sitting solely under M184
.
id:YF03586 ARM............Armenia from Ghazari ( north Armenia )
.
.
Only nne T person sitting only with SNP L131
id:YF15081 ARM new ...........Armenia again
.
.
Area under ...........Ancient Kura-axes culture ...........ancient Hurrian peoples

----------


## Salento

> the first paper I recall of the Ladin DNA was by Thomas in 2008, he split the german speakers and italian speakers and below is the ydna split
> GV (German, n=102): ~R1b 42%, ~G+I 25%, J 14%, R1a 9% , ~E 8%, *L 2%*
> ITA (Ital.speakers BZ, n=59): ~R1b 37%, ~G+I 25%, J 15%, ~E 12%, ~*T 5%*, R1a 3%, *L 2%*
> .
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17712356
> New genetic evidence supports isolation and drift in the Ladin communities of the South Tyrolean Alps but not an ancient origin in the Middle East.
> Thomas MG1, Barnes I, Weale ME, Jones AL, Forster P, Bradman N, Pramstaller PP.


Same quote here:
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknF...up_T-M184.html

and also says that: 

_...Y T ... probably originated around 40,000 years ago somewhere between the North European Plain and Himalayas,..._

This is *big split* from most websites.

----------


## Sile

> CL23 which is T-L446 had admixture results below....use ID for other tests
> Eurogenes places this person between hungary and Friuli
> .
> .
> *Kit Num: Z909242*
> Threshold of components set to 1.000
> Threshold of method set to 0.25%
> Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
> Gedmatch.Com
> ...


BAM results for CL23
.
T1a2 - CTS933 ( CTS6071+ )
.
negative for CTS11984
.
Blond hair and Blue/Grey eyes
Pale skin

----------


## Sile

3rd neolithic karsdorf T ydna found

KARS537 

Bam file

T1a1- L162

Brown hair
Blue eyes
Pale skin

ABO blood group

----------


## Salento

> 3rd neolithic karsdorf T ydna found
> 
> KARS537 
> 
> Bam file
> 
> T1a1- L162
> 
> Brown hair
> ...


Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.

In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):



They get my hair color close enough:

----------


## Sile

> Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.
> 
> In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):
> 
> 
> 
> They get my hair color close enough:



his first reading was red hair or more like chestnut colour

----------


## Salento

T Z19945 Migration

1700 BC Rome
1100 BC over the Alps

according to: 
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

----------


## torzio

> Since he has brown hair, I wouldn't be that comfortable at predicting for sure the color of his eyes.
> 
> In multiple sites, I still get this (wrongly):
> 
> 
> 
> They get my hair color close enough:



info on KARS537

https://www.biorxiv.org/node/96800.full

----------


## Ahmed

Hi everyone, this is my first post here but the hot discussion about Romans attracted me though it is old. Since i received my BigY-700 results i started to know more about Europe and Romans history as my Y haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658 which is subclade of R-U152. I am from Egypt so it was surprising when i knew that i am descending from European ancestor. I am 75% Egyptian ,20% from Asia Minor , 2% south European and i never heard about any European ancestors in my family but may be because it happened long time ago. I think my subclade is still existing in some areas in Italy like Sardinia and Tuscany so one of the strongest possibilities that my family moved to Egypt during the Romans invasion to Egypt 2000 years ago. I read a research about a lot of documented marriages between Roman soldiers and Egyptian women though it wasn't legalised at the beginning but it is still an assumption until i find a close match some where in Europe. I am in the big tree under my last name Abdou and soon will be in YFull.

----------


## Salento

> Hi everyone, this is my first post here but the hot discussion about Romans attracted me though it is old. Since i received my BigY-700 results i started to know more about Europe and Romans history as my Y haplogroup is R-Z193/PF6658 which is subclade of R-U152. I am from Egypt so it was surprising when i knew that i am descending from European ancestor. I am 75% Egyptian ,20% from Asia Minor , 2% south European and i never heard about any European ancestors in my family but may be because it happened long time ago. I think my subclade is still existing in some areas in Italy like Sardinia and Tuscany so one of the strongest possibilities that my family moved to Egypt during the Romans invasion to Egypt 2000 years ago. I read a research about a lot of documented marriages between Roman soldiers and Egyptian women though it wasn't legalised at the beginning but it is still an assumption until i find a close match some where in Europe. I am in the big tree under my last name Abdou and soon will be in YFull.


That’s great, You should probably Post it again in the R1b section of the Forum, this thread is about Y haplogroup T. 

Here is the link, (You’ll get more exposure and you’ll find more informations on your Haplogroup):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/forums/234-R1b

----------


## Andalusian Fusion

"T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalayas."

Do you have a link?

----------


## torzio

> "T-M184 (xL206) sample found in a published paper. And this individual is from Himalayas."
> 
> Do you have a link?


There are 3 with this marker who do not have other snp mutations, the one you mentioned plus Armenia and Germany

----------


## Andalusian Fusion

> There are 3 with this marker who do not have other snp mutations, the one you mentioned plus Armenia and Germany


Where are the papers this person mentioned? (It's an old post from 6 years ago, so not sure if the person is still on here.)

----------


## torzio

> Where are the papers this person mentioned? (It's an old post from 6 years ago, so not sure if the person is still on here.)


check wiki site .....T-M184
and all links to other papers are at the bottom

*the only way to use wiki*

----------


## Andalusian Fusion

> check wiki site .....T-M184
> and all links to other papers are at the bottom
> 
> *the only way to use wiki*


_Doh!_


Thanks, Torzio.

----------


## torzio

> _Doh!_
> 
> 
> Thanks, Torzio.


how did you get an un-helpful mark for this?...................someone must hate your comments about hap. T marker

----------


## Andalusian Fusion

> how did you get an un-helpful mark for this?...................someone must hate your comments about hap. T marker


I will be creating my own forum.

----------


## torzio

Around the alpide belt
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11357-9

sample I3403 is ydna T1a2 with mtdna X2d

----------


## Joey37

I would say that the parent LT originated in the Zagros mountains or northern Fertile Crescent, and while L headed mostly east, T went west and also south.

----------


## torzio

> I would say that the parent LT originated in the Zagros mountains or northern Fertile Crescent, and while L headed mostly east, T went west and also south.


file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/2809-13879-1-PB.pdf ( map #11)

This paper states south of the caspian sea .................my take is anywhere around the caspian sea .......although the kazaks are one of a few races that ancient T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 are all found together

----------


## torzio

all olden haplogroup T

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/54.37/38.28

I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch

----------


## Salento

> all older haplogroup T
> 
> https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/54.37/38.28
> 
> I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch


It also says that CL23 is not T L446

It is shown as T CTS6071 (CTS933)

I’m positive for both, and you should be too

I remember that they were thinking about changing the nomenclature, maybe ...

----------


## torzio

> It also says that CL23 is not T L446
> 
> It is shown as T CTS6071 (CTS933)
> 
> I’m positive for both, and you should be too
> 
> I remember that they were thinking about changing the nomenclature, maybe ...


Agree

It still makes it a T1a2 branch

----------


## torzio

https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...-45398-3#Sec15

*Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees*


10 x T1a2-L131 samples

and an interesting LT sample....very very old haplogroup

----------


## Salento

I wish people would Capitalize the L haplogroup.

Half of the time I can’t tell if is an I or a L

----------


## torzio

> https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...-45398-3#Sec15
> 
> *Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees*
> 
> 
> 10 x T1a2-L131 samples
> 
> and an interesting LT sample....very very old haplogroup


_The present study comprises 135 samples belonging to 66 different paternal lineages from two bordering regions of Northern Italy, i.e. Emilia-Romagna and Veneto. 

_actually , they are only from romagna and veneto

----------


## torzio

> all olden haplogroup T
> 
> https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/54.37/38.28
> 
> I find the collegno CL23 an issue...............the paper gave it a T1a2-L446 branch and this link states T1a1 branch


site upgraded

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#3/47.34/46.58

----------


## Salento

> site upgraded
> 
> https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#3/47.34/46.58


... anything interesting from your new Y test results ?

----------


## torzio

> ... anything interesting from your new Y test results ?


CL23 is marked as T1a1 .....when he should be T1a2 since he has CTS6007 and L446 which are both T1a2 branch markers

VK398 is also marked in error as T1a1 , when it is T1a2


this new one at 
*Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture .............NE Iran on the caspian sea*

*I2514* ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Phase: Hissar IIIb
Cluster:
Y-DNA: *T1a2a1a-Y13284* (xT1a2a1a1-Y38305, T1a2a1a2-BY31850)
mtDNA: W3b
Age at Death: +50

................................................

*Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture*


*IV3002* ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Kurgan: 2
Phase: 1st
Grave: 187 ( Founding grave of the entire mound )
Other dates: 5058 ± 223 yBP / 5328 ± 251 yBP / 4630 ± 50 yBP (radiocarbon)
Y-DNA: *T1-CTS6004* (xT1a1a-CTS484, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37316) Probably: *T1a2a-Y8614*
mtDNA: X1'2'3
Age at Death: 35-45

.....................................

This was T1a3 and now

*Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju )**DA125* ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Kurgan:
Object:
Y-DNA: *T1a2a1a1-Y13279*
mtDNA: U2e2a1

----------


## Salento

VK17 - y T1a1a - mt U5a2a1b

VK398 y T1a2b1 - mt H1b1+16362

_(non y T Pugliese Viking, note to myself:
VK535 y R1b1a1b1b3a - mt T1a5
autosomally ~90% southern European, I think this is the guy that @Ownstyler is talking about)_

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post581938

----------


## Alpenjager

This is not a error but the most updated tree. Anyway, I should have to update it again since the new finding on the Crusader change the whole tree as follows:





> CL23 is marked as T1a1 .....when he should be T1a2 since he has CTS6007 and L446 which are both T1a2 branch markers
> 
> VK398 is also marked in error as T1a1 , when it is T1a2
> 
> 
> this new one at 
> *Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture .............NE Iran on the caspian sea*
> 
> *I2514* ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
> ...


T1a1 was T1a1a and now will be T1a1a1, T1a2 was T1a1b and now will change to T1a1a2 and finally T1a3 was T1a2 and now will be as T1a1b

----------


## torzio

> This is not a error but the most updated tree. Anyway, I should have to update it again since the new finding on the Crusader change the whole tree as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T1a1 was T1a1a and now will be T1a1a1, T1a2 was T1a1b and now will change to T1a1a2 and finally T1a3 was T1a2 and now will be as T1a1b



I have never seen that all T ydna will go under T1a1 in any other site ............please link where ftdna or Isogg or others are calling every T under 1 branch ............it will make everything confusing

in the old days , there was T1a and T1b ..........then came T1a1, T1a2, T1a3 and T2-Ph110 ...................I need a link for you to explain these changes to me

----------


## Salento

a 3/4Italian, 1/4 Anglo-American:

y T-CTS8862 (he’s actually T-Z19945 (100% Italian Father)

mt U5a2a1b (same mt as the VK17 sample)

----------


## torzio

> a 3/4Italian, 1/4 Anglo-American:
> 
> y T-CTS8862 (he’s actually T-Z19945 (100% Italian Father)
> 
> mt U5a2a1b (same mt as the VK17 sample)


who/where are these results from ?

----------


## Salento

NatGeo, ... Junior ...

----------


## Salento

_Junior full Results
_

----------


## Salento

mine below:

----------


## torzio

> mine below:


I have an older version

Natgeno gave me my ydna T-CTS8862 and my mtdna of h95a ................2 years before any other company

----------


## torzio

there has been a slight increase of tuscan since a year ago

----------


## Salento

> I have an older version
> 
> Natgeno gave me my ydna T-CTS8862 and my mtdna of h95a ................2 years before any other company



I guess that Northern and Southern Italian meet around Tuscany, genetically speaking.

Junior:



Mine:

----------


## Salento

@Torzio 

I saw the Illyrians, Veneti and Pugliesi posts on the MTA thread.

... what if T-Z19945 hung out with some Illyrian tribe before splitting?

What do you think?

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> 
> I saw the Illyrians, Veneti and Pugliesi posts on the MTA thread.
> 
> ... what if T-Z19945 hung out with some Illyrian tribe before splitting?
> 
> What do you think?


can you link thread

your ideas are as good as any

I thought Z19945 is more likely in the northern Balkan lands , hungarian , romanian etc............

age of Z19945 as per yfull is only 1460BC approx.

----------


## Salento

> can you link thread
> 
> your ideas are as good as any
> 
> I thought Z19945 is more likely in the northern Balkan lands , hungarian , romanian etc............
> 
> age of Z19945 as per yfull is only 1460BC approx.


It start at Post #1389

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post586698

----------


## Salento

Tomenable thinks that SZ36 (y T1a..) is an Ethnic Roman.
It’s my 1st / 2nd match on my MTA Kits:








https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post586743

_Q-Matching one-to-one with SZ36:_

----------


## torzio

id:ERS256892* ITA [IT-CA]

**This sample in yfull has a yellow squared information box with a couple of Snp's , one which is Z19945 .........this is way further up the tree where other Z19945.

anyone know what these new yellow squared information boxes represent in yfull
and
anyone know about this sample ERS256892
*

----------


## ShpataEMadhe

African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"

Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers

----------


## Salento

> African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"
> Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers


Are you y T?
fyi:
T-M184 (y T) is unusual in that it is both geographically widespread and relatively rare (considering that it originated around 40,000 years ago) ...

Y-DNA haplogroup T is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and East Africa. A famous person in Haplogroup T was Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), the third President of the United States from 1801 to 1809 ...

... some Roman Era y T:


y T Latin Tribe Ardea 650 BC





.............

Golden Man: (ANI152 VAR 43) Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture ...
... The oldest gold treasure in the world, dating from 4,600 BC to 4,200 BC ...




...............


Karsdorf Germany (7.000 + years ago)

----------


## Kelmendasi

> African or middle east, which tribe exactly hard to say. Definitely not European or "ilyrian"
> 
> Almost non existant in Europe and where it is found in europe it probably came from slaves, invaders or minor foreign settlers


Please stop talking nonsense, at least back it up with evidence if you do. 

Clades under T have already been found in aDNA samples from Europe which date back to the Neolithic. T-L208 and T-L162 for example have both been found in Neolithic Bulgaria. T-M184 was also found in the Varna Culture of Bulgaria.

----------


## ShpataEMadhe

> Are you y T?
> fyi:
> T-M184 (y T) is unusual in that it is both geographically widespread and relatively rare (considering that it originated around 40,000 years ago) ...
> 
> Y-DNA haplogroup T is found at low frequencies throughout Europe and in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and East Africa. A famous person in Haplogroup T was Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), the third President of the United States from 1801 to 1809 ...
> 
> ... some Roman Era y T:
> 
> 
> ...


I havent been tested yet

Would you say most T was spread in europe by roman empire slaves?

----------


## torzio

> I havent been tested yet
> 
> Would you say most T was spread in europe by roman empire slaves?


No, romans are too late.........there are T ydna in Germany, Bulgaria, balkans, france etc form the neolithic

my take, is that they ( T ydna ) where initially not farmers , but hunters ........Karsdorf is a ancient hunting ground for red-deer .......there is even H ydna found there

----------


## Salento

> R850 (also a y T), R437 and I do Not get R120 in the top 100.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post593611





> R1 get R120 (y T1a2 - T-L446) in the Top 100, what about you ???






> R120 .............I do not get in my top 100
> 
> CL23 the other T ydna is my #14 ...........................I do not know why they state this as iberian, when he is born in bulgaria, raised in Pannonia and died in Italy ..........maybe his mum is iberian
> 
> do you get this below from Sochi russia
> 
> 52. Thraco-Cimmerian Black Sea (900 BC) *..... 15.89* - MJ12 - 
> Top *97*% match vs all users





> I do not, I get this instead:





> seems like in MTA......you went to europe via south of the black sea .......and I , north of the black sea
> 
> i only get this
> 
> 32. Proto Thracian/Illyrian Vucedol (2775 BC) *..... 14.31* - I3499 - 
> Top *98*% match vs all users
> 
> the sochi one
> 
> ...


@Torzio ... from MTA thread, ... ‘cause of topic.

I guess it’s possible, hard to say.

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## torzio

> @Torzio ... from MTA thread, ... ‘cause of topic.
> 
> I guess it’s possible, hard to say.



It would mean that like some scholars state, T ydna formed around the caspian sea somewhere......from its split with LT haplogroup

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