# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Characteristics of Haplogroups??

## RH NEG-I

Are there any defining physical characteristics that can be positivly associated with the various Haplo Groups?

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

As far as I know there are no physical characteristics caused by the Y-Chromosome, except of course for the general male characteristics. But to be more precise they are not caused by the Y-DNA itself, but by the missing second X-Chromosome which otherwise oppresses these features. Unless of course you associate Y haplogroups with certain ethnicities, so that you can say with a certain chance someone with haplogroup A is black, O suffers from lactose intolerance, I is white etc...

----------


## RH NEG-I

Interesting so I suppose the mdna points to more definable traits?

----------


## Aristander

Our general charateristics are determined by our autosomal DNA and not our mtDNA or Y DNA haplogroup. Two individuals can have identical mtDNA and Y DNA markings and look completely different as far as eye, hair and skin color, along with other physical attributes.

----------


## RH NEG-I

How then do these genes express themselves?

----------


## RH NEG-I

Arent there technological and societal advances and or changes associated with Y chromosome mutations in antiquity?

----------


## bud

Y DNA and mtDNA are used to trace ancestry as they are unchanged for thousands of generations. But we are all made up of thousands of Genes that contribute to our physical traits and from many relatives that are not associated with either the Y or mtDNA. 

For Example I look exactly like my Scottish Mothers father but I do not have his Y DNA.

----------


## RH NEG-I

I understand but what exactly is the Y chromosome responsible for? It has to express itself somehow. Perhaps its a psychological thing, male identity? For instance, exposure to testosterone in the womb can determine a man's ability to read maps, problem solve, aggression, etc. Perhaps the Y chromosome plays a role? Is there any data on this? As I said before there are observed changes in civilizations that are associated with mutations in the Y chromosome.

----------


## Aristander

There might be some physical characteristics that are defined by certain Y groups, things like male fertility or maybe a tendancy to produce more male offspring than female offspring. There might even be some sex linked differences that are responsible for certain behavioral traits. I seem to recall a studyof a group of Dutch families had a tendency for males to be more violent than other groups. I don't know if this was linked to their Y chromesome or not but since it only seemed to be shown in the males I would assume that it did.

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

> There might be some physical characteristics that are defined by certain Y groups, things like male fertility or maybe a tendancy to produce more male offspring than female offspring. There might even be some sex linked differences that are responsible for certain behavioral traits. I seem to recall a studyof a group of Dutch families had a tendency for males to be more violent than other groups. I don't know if this was linked to their Y chromesome or not but since it only seemed to be shown in the males I would assume that it did.


There are diseases like color-blindness or alopecia (if we call it a disease :Laughing: ) which too only affect males. The genes linked to these diseases however are not on the Y-Chromosome, but on the sister X-chromosome. A second X-chromosome would neutralize the effect, but as males don't have one, the disease breaks though.

----------


## LeBrok

It's a little more complicated I suppose. Alopecia and colour blindness effects women too but to lesser degree. Go figure. :)

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

> It's a little more complicated I suppose. Alopecia and colour blindness effects women too but to lesser degree. Go figure. :)


Yes, to be more precise it effects women too but to a much lesser degree. That proves too the disease is not directly from the Y-chromosome. Anyways there must me a sex-linked reason males are effected heavier. It is the same with behavior.

----------


## Yorkie

> Interesting so I suppose the mdna points to more definable traits?


Those, like you and I, who have I haplogroup Ydna tend to be much better looking..

----------


## JQP4545

Masculinization of the brain as indicated by 2D:4D ratio could be passed down via y haplogroups. According to a study done on 1,260 Austrian individuals, 2D:4D is strongly heritable along paternal lines. This suggests a y chromosome component to fetal testosterone levels. If anyone else has more information on this please post as there are enormous implications. Masculinity is an important component of what makes you you. It affects your aggression, visual spatial abilities, athletic ability, empathy, sex drive, etc... Even though it is a small component of your DNA it would be one of the most important genes if 2D:4D and fetal testosterone is affected by your y haplogroup.

----------


## Power77

@JQP4545 Wow now that's interresting! That would mean that Y chromosome haplogroups may be more important than previously thought! So there may be after all a different ratio of rich/successful men vs poor men or hairy men vs bald men or strong(er)/muscular men vs weak(er) men or agressive men vs peaceful men or tall men vs short men or even smart(er) men vs dumb(er) men for various Y haplogroups! I recall a study done on Pakistani males where the R1a Pakistanis were found to be more agressive than Pakistani men of other Y haplogroups. Could you post the link for that Austrian study?

----------


## motzart

There are studies that have shown a positive correlation between the Y Chromosome and height, however they did not identify which Y DNA Haplogroup the SNP belonged to. That said, the countries with the tallest men in the world are also the countries with the highest percentages of men carrying Y DNA I1 and I2. 

This is probably an inherited trait from Y DNA Ancestor Cro Magnon who was very tall. 

Another thing I strongly believe would be influenced by the Y Chromosome is male pattern baldness and hair in general, Asiatic men tend to be less hairy so I wouldn't be suprised if men with R1a/R1b tended to be less harier than their I,J,G counterparts. R1a/b also started off with an Asiatic Bracephalic (broad) skull so I wouldn't be surprised if men carrying this haplogroup tended to have a more mesocephalic headshape (round). Y DNA I,J and G all would have the dolicephalic (long) headshape, and probably a more prominent nose too. These wouldn't be traits influenced by the y chromosome itself but rather traits left over from ancestors we can determine by the y dna haplogroup.

----------


## Power77

@motzart I noticed the correlation between tall height and haplogroup I* before as well. As for hairiness and baldness, I also expect I*, G* and J* carriers to be the most predisposed to both traits. With E1b1b*(and YAP lineages in general) coming second and being intermediate between IJ*/G*/H* and K* descended lineages(NO*/P*/Q*/R*) in that respect. What do you think?

----------


## LeBrok

> There are studies that have shown a positive correlation between the Y Chromosome and height, however they did not identify which Y DNA Haplogroup the SNP belonged to. That said, the countries with the tallest men in the world are also the countries with the highest percentages of men carrying Y DNA I1 and I2.


 Possibly so.

This is probably an inherited trait from Y DNA Ancestor Cro Magnon who was very tall. 




> Another thing I strongly believe would be influenced by the Y Chromosome is male pattern baldness and hair in general,


 Surprisingly male pattern boldness comes from mother side, therefore Y chromosome is out of equation.

----------


## arvistro

As to tallness in general in Europe it seems coming from I, but Lithuania stand out being tall without I.

----------


## Power77

@Le Brok That's an old myth abouth male pattern baldness. Scientists have found other genes involved especially autosomal ones. And I bet we'll find Y- related genes for that trait as well( which I always suspected).

----------


## oriental

Y dna just gives someone a penis so Y dnas are pr*cks.  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## Power77

@oriental Proof to your statement? Maciamo himself discussed that Y-hg's may have more phenotypical effect on a man than previously thought. Whether it is in fertility, hairiness or even voices( pitches). In fact studies have found that there are other genes for the formation of a penis other than the Y. So to state that Y-DNA just gives you a penis is faulty.

----------


## oriental

Thank You. I wasn't serious. :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## Power77

@ oriental Cheers then=)

----------


## oriental

Same to you =)

----------


## LeBrok

> @oriental Proof to your statement? Maciamo himself discussed that Y-hg's may have more phenotypical effect on a man than previously thought. Whether it is in fertility, hairiness or even voices( pitches). In fact studies have found that there are other genes for the formation of a penis other than the Y. *So to state that Y-DNA just gives you a penis is faulty*.


 You mean you can have a penis without Y DNA?!!!

----------


## Power77

@Le Brok Yes and this is the reason why there are cases of SRY-negative XX males! You can google it on the net.

----------


## LeBrok

> @Le Brok Yes and this is the reason why there are cases of SRY-negative XX males! You can google it on the net.


Very interesting cases but I wouldn't read too much into it yet. Cases are very few, all a bit different, and scientists still trying to make sense out of it. I would sit on sidelines till this fenomenon is fully explained.


For most:
 


> Molecular studies have *detected Y chromosome material in 75% of XX males* (





> Muller _et al._, 1987), which explains their testicular development_._ On the other hand, many theories have been put forward to explain how patients who are Y-negative, as in this case, can have testes, despite complete absence of the Y 
> http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/4/717.full


It is possible that in remaining 25% Y chromosome exists but not in all organs. The DNA is always sampled from blood and not from testis for example, where Y chromosome, or part of it, might be still present. There are few reported cases of so called chimeras, people with two different DNA in different organs.

Whatever is the case you don't have fertile male, fully functional male, without Y DNA.






> In fact studies have found that there are other genes for the formation of a penis other than the Y. So to state that Y-DNA just gives you a penis is faulty.


 Yes, autosomal DNA contains most of male "blueprint", however yDNA is the "director of the construction".

----------


## Power77

@ Le Brok I suspect that some of these individuals may lack completely the Y in all of their body parts while others may have some Y-genetic material in their testis as you said but that Y doesn't kick in for sperm production. So both cases explain sterility for such people.

----------


## Sile

> @motzart I noticed the correlation between tall height and haplogroup I* before as well. As for hairiness and baldness, I also expect I*, G* and J* carriers to be the most predisposed to both traits. With E1b1b*(and YAP lineages in general) coming second and being intermediate between IJ*/G*/H* and K* descended lineages(NO*/P*/Q*/R*) in that respect. What do you think?


then since the new july 2014 age numbers from karafet june 2014 paper indicates that HIJGTLNO and P all came out of K in a period of 6000 years ( and R and Q 30000 years later ), we would expect all of these haplogroups to have the same traits you state.............would I be fair in stating this?

----------


## Power77

@Sile Where did you read that haplogroups G*,H* and IJ* came from K*. If they really did then yes we would expect them to show the same traits relatively/proportionally speaking.

----------


## Tomenable

> If they really did then yes we would expect them to show the same traits relatively/proportionally speaking.


So for example Sub-Saharan African R1b-V88, R1b-M73 in East Asia, and European R1b-M269, all show the same traits ???  :Grin:

----------


## Power77

@Tomenable I never talked about "racial" phenotype but rather hairiness, behaviour and male traits(such as baldness and voice pitch) . Reread my posts. Cheers.

----------


## RobertColumbia

> As far as I know there are no physical characteristics caused by the Y-Chromosome, except of course for the general male characteristics. But to be more precise they are not caused by the Y-DNA itself, but by the missing second X-Chromosome which otherwise oppresses these features. Unless of course you associate Y haplogroups with certain ethnicities, so that you can say with a certain chance someone with haplogroup A is black, O suffers from lactose intolerance, I is white etc...


You would also expect an R1b to be more statistically likely to be a redhead. It doesn't mean that R1b makes you ginger, it's that there is a significant historic correlation between R1b and redheads.

Is there any research indicating actual functions of the Y-chromosome that are affected by mutations associated with haplogroups? I know there has been some speculation that some R types may be more likely to have sons than daughters (which could explain the dominance of R-types in western Europe), but I'm not aware of any empirical research indicating this.

----------


## Dinarid

Link to study of physical features and Y-SNPs




> *Marked differences in Y-SNP allele frequencies between continental populations can be used to predict the biogeographic origin of a man's ancestral paternal lineage. Using 627* *samples** collected from individuals within the UK with pale-skinned Caucasian, dark-skinned Caucasian, African/Caribbean, South Asian, East Asian or Middle Eastern appearance we demonstrate that an individual's Y-SNP haplogroup is also strongly correlated with their physical appearance.* Furthermore, experimental evaluation of the Marligen Signet Y-SNP kit in conjunction with the Luminex 100 detection instrument indicates that reliable and reproducible haplogrouping results can be obtained from 1 ng or more of target template derived from a variety of forensic evidence types including, blood, saliva and post-coital vaginal swabs. The test proved highly male-specific with reliable results being generated in the presence of a 1000-fold excess of female DNA, and no anomalous results were observed during degradation studies despite a gradual loss of typable loci. Hence, Y-SNP haplogrouping has considerable potential forensic utility in predicting likely ethnic appearance.


It's no wonder the majority of men with Haplogroup I are over 181 cm tall, this explains a lot about my people (Bosnian Croats, tallest in the world) and the southern Swedes, Montenegrins, northern Dutch, etc. I also believe that I and J men tend to have in common bigger, more prominent noses, proportionally longer legs and shorter trunks, and more body hair. 

We also usually have longer faces, on which the beak noses fit quite nicely, although in the Balkans our very strong lower jaws fill out our faces more- this may be an I2 thing. Perhaps we can 
say J + I1 = narrower faces; I2 = full jaws; although Armenians (J2) usually have prominent cheekbones which can cause their faces to look fuller in the same way our jawlines do, but this is probably a result of whatever Central Asian/Indo-European invasion that brought R1b into the Armenian gene pool.

All of the men of beak-nosed populations in West Eurasia are high in either I or J (Persians, Armenians, Jews, Arabs, South Slavs, Italians (esp. southern), Greeks, also in southern Sweden I believe many people have aquiline noses, and you can see them among many Dutchmen as well.

Head shape is somewhat harder, because some J populations are quite dolichocephalic like Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, Persians, and most peninsular Arabs, as well as southern Italians. Then there are Armenians, Ingush, etc. who are brachycephalic, although for Armenians this could come from R1b Central Asians. I2 is mostly brachycephalic (Balkans) and then I1 is clearly dolichocephalic. I find a correlation between head shape and haplogroup to be very hard, and believe it's more influenced by autosomal DNA.

I think that the trait men inherit with the strongest link to the Y chromosome would be height.

----------


## Dinarid

> Those, like you and I, who have I haplogroup Ydna tend to be much better looking..


LOL I wish that were true. We do usually have very strong masculine features, like tallness and big noses, I know that for sure. But the women of ancient Europe clearly didn't find us more attractive when they mated with Central Asian R-carrying invaders.

----------


## firetown

Interesting discussion. SO here is MY question:
Which is the gene that makes someone semetic?
As far as I have gotten ... the sumerians were not semetic ... but the akkadians were ... correct?

----------

