# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Why are Hungarians more creative and innovative in science than Western Great Powers?

## Stears555

Count only the ratio of scientific type of Nobel awards/ population 



United Kingdom:

chemistry 28 (5 was immigrant)

Physics 23 (3 immigrant)

Physiology or medicine 34 (6 immigrant)



GRAND TOTAL: 85

ABORIGINAL BRITISH (Without immigrants): 71



Hungary: 

Chemistry: 5

Physics: 3

Physiology or medicine: 4

GRAND TOTAL: 12

IMMIGRANTS: 0



GERMANY

CHEMISTRY: 29 (2 IMMIGRANT)

PHYSICS: 31 (6 IMMIGRANT)

Physiology or Medicine: 24 (7 IMMIGRANT)

GRAND TOTAL: 84

IMMIGRANTS: 15

ABORIGINAL GERMAN: 69



France:

PHYSICS: 13 (IMMIGRANT: 2)

CHEMISTRY: 11 (IMMIGRANT : 2)

Physiology or Medicine: 13 (IMMIGRANT: 1)

GRAND TOTAL: 37

IMMIGRANTS: 5

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## Stears555

So Hungary is much better in scientific Nobel awards / capita ratio than this great powers...

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## Ike

Because of all Hungarian people of Jewish origin, who are known for their intellect and wittiness ;)

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## LeBrok

Because Hungarians are super race, most European of all, speak true European language, are the blondest in all Balkans, and overall super duper smartest on Earth. True nation of chosen people. I'm running out of words to describe their greatness.

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## Stears555

> Because Hungarians are super race, most European of all, speak true European language, are the blondest in all Balkans, and overall super duper smartest on Earth. True nation of chosen people. I'm running out of words to describe their greatness.


Such a geographic ignorance! Balkan is a peninsula of Europe, and Hungary simply not located on that peninsula. Second: Balkan is an Estern civilization, part of the Orthodox world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

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## Angela

Even with my blocker on, I get the gist of the discussion...

Of the twelve Hungarian Nobel Prize Laureates listed on Wiki:

*Robert Barany-Ashkenazim
**Dennia Gabor-Ashkenazim*
*Avram Hershko-Ashkenazim*
*Hevesy György-Ashkenazim*
*Eugene Paul* "*E. P.*" *Wigner-Ashkenazim*
*John Harsanyi Ashkenazim*
*Imre Kertész-Ashkenazim**

The Hungarians are down to 5, and I wonder how many of those have hidden or otherwise Ashkenazi ancestry?*

As these people are emphatically *not* ethnic Hungarians, I find the inclusion of them on the list illogical in the extreme. In addition, since Hungary either passively, according to their own whitewashing of their history, or more actively, by a more objective analysis, in my opinion, participated in trying to exterminate these people, I find it the* height of* *indecency* that anyone would claim them to bolster arguments about "Hungarian" creativity or intelligence.

Perhaps anyone interested in that period in Hungary should read Elie Wiesel about the Hungarian treatment of their Jews. Interestingly, as a Hungarian Jew who received a Nobel Prize for literature, he isn't listed. Considering his bitterness toward them, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that he probably asked for his name to be removed.

It might actually be an interesting exercise to go through the lists of all the eastern European countries, Germany and the Balkans perhaps, as well, and "cull" the lists.

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## John Doe

> Even with my blocker on, I get the gist of the discussion...
> 
> Of the twelve Hungarian Nobel Prize Laureates listed on Wiki:
> 
> *Robert Barany-Ashkenazim
> *
> *Dennia Gabor-Ashkenazim*
> *Avram Hershko-Ashkenazim*
> *Hevesy György-Ashkenazim*
> ...


LOL, good point, I suppose we were always treated as a nation within a nation, and never truly accepted (at least in the old world, this doesn't work in the new world i.e America, Australia etc though), sad, but true. :-\

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## Stears555

> Even with my blocker on, I get the gist of the discussion...
> 
> Of the twelve Hungarian Nobel Prize Laureates listed on Wiki:
> 
> *Robert Barany-Ashkenazim
> **Dennia Gabor-Ashkenazim*
> *Avram Hershko-Ashkenazim*
> *Hevesy György-Ashkenazim*
> *Eugene Paul* "*E. P.*" *Wigner-Ashkenazim*
> ...


Wrong. 3 of them is half Jewish, but non of them grew up in Jewish culture. They went to protestant schools and secondary schools (instead of Jewish) and Hungarian universities. Moreover all of them considered themselves as Hungarians in their own biographies instead of Jewish. None of them could speak the Yiddish or Hebrew languages.

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## Yetos

> So Hungary is much better in scientific Nobel awards / capita ratio than this great powers...


can you tell us the genetic component of Hungarians that makes them much better in scientific areas?

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## Stears555

> can you tell us the genetic component of Hungarians that makes them much better in scientific areas?


Wrong. The secret is our language.

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## LeBrok

> Wrong. The secret is our language.


oh, how didn't I got it sooner? The superiority of Hungarians comes from their special language!

Is it your idea or you read it somewhere?

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## Stears555

> oh, how didn't I got it sooner? The superiority of Hungarians comes from their special language!
> 
> Is it your idea or you read it somewhere?


 Are you racial supremacist?


Our language is an agglutinative language, with very complex structure, that makes it very expressive. Forexample: It is very easy to translate English French German Italian poems to Hungarian language in very good quality, however its opposite is not true.

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## Angela

> Even with my blocker on, I get the gist of the discussion...
> 
> Of the twelve Hungarian Nobel Prize Laureates listed on Wiki:
> 
> *Robert Barany-Ashkenazim
> **Dennia Gabor-Ashkenazim*
> *Avram Hershko-Ashkenazim*
> *Hevesy György-Ashkenazim*
> *Eugene Paul* "*E. P.*" *Wigner-Ashkenazim*
> ...


I apologize...a lot of them are Sephardim. Their biographies can be found in Wiki. Just google the names.

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## Stears555

> I apologize...a lot of them are Sephardim. Their biographies can be found in Wiki. Just google the names.


Wrong. In their wiki articles they have no own (self written) curiculum or own autobiography.

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## John Doe

> I apologize...a lot of them are Sephardim. Their biographies can be found in Wiki. Just google the names.


On Wikipedia it says that *John Harsanyi's parents converted from Judaism to Catholicism a year before his birth, I'm not sure if he was of Sephardi or Ashkenazi background. He died in California.*

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## John Doe

*Róbert Bárány was half Jewish (via his dad) and died in Sweden (again, not sure if SJ or AJ).
**Gábor Dénes was of Jewish background, his family converted to Lutheranism, he later on considered himself Agnostic, claiming that religion played a minor role in his life. He died in Britain.
**Avram Hershko today lives in Israel and is Ashkenazi if you ask me.
**Hevesy György was born to a Catholic family of Jewish background, he died in west Germany.
**Eugene Paul died in America.
**Imre Kertész resides in Berlin.**

*

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## Stears555

> On Wikipedia it says that *John Harsanyi's parents converted from Judaism to Catholicism a year before his birth, I'm not sure if he was of Sephardi or Ashkenazi background. He died in California.*


Wrong. Wikipedia does not contain own self-written biographies and CVs about people in their articles. It is against the Wikipedia rules.

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## Stears555

> *Róbert Bárány was half Jewish (via his dad) and died in Sweden (again, not sure if SJ or AJ).
> **Gábor Dénes was of Jewish background, his family converted to Lutheranism, he later on considered himself Agnostic, claiming that religion played a minor role in his life. He died in Britain.
> **Avram Hershko today lives in Israel and is Ashkenazi if you ask me.
> **Hevesy György was born to a Catholic family of Jewish background, he died in west Germany.
> **Eugene Paul died in America.
> **Imre Kertész resides in Berlin.*


So you can found only Hersko?

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## John Doe

> Wrong. Wikipedia does not contain own self-written biographies and CVs about people in their articles. It is against the Wikipedia rules.


It's written in black and white there.




> So you can found only Hersko?


I found them all, in the English Wikipedia.

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## Angela

*Dennis Gabor* was born as Günszberg Dénes, into a *Jewish* family in Budapest, Hungary. In 1918, his family converted to Lutheranism.
*
Avram Hershko* (*Hebrew*: אברהם הרשקו‎; born 31 December 1937) is a Hungarian born *Israeli* biochemist and Nobel laureate in Chemistry.

*Hevesy György* was born in Budapest, Hungary to a wealthy and ennobled Roman Catholic [7]of Hungarian* Jewish* descent[8] family, the fifth of eight children to his parents Lajos (Louis) Bischitz and Baroness Eugenia (Jenny) Schossberger (ennobled as "De Tornya"). *Grandparents from both sides* of the family had provided the *presidents of the Jewish community of Pest*.

*Wigner Jenő Pál* was born in Budapest, Austria-Hungary on November 17, 1902, to middle class *Jewish* parents,

*John C. Harsanyi* was born in Budapest, Hungary on May 29, 1920, the son of a pharmacy owner. *His parents converted from Judaism* to Catholicism a year before he was born.
*
Imre Kertész*
During World War II, Kertész was deported at the age of 14 with other Hungarian *Jews* to the Auschwitz concentration camp, and was later sent to Buchenwald
*
Robert Barany*:
He was the eldest of six children, to the former Maria Hock, the daughter of a scientist, and Ignáz Bárány, born 1842 in Pápa, a *Hungarian Jew* who was a bank official and estate manager.[4]

There we have *7 out of 12* “Hungarian” Nobel Prize Winners.

Who knows what would show up if the other *5* were tested at 23andme.

This poster's threads are all about the supposed superiority of the *Hungarian ethnicity.* These people are *NOT* "*ETHNIC"* Hungarians by his definition.
*
To any moderators reading this thread…aren’t there penalties for posting deliberate distortions of established fact? And I am not just talking about this thread.*

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## Stears555

> It's written in black and white there.
> 
> 
> 
> I found them all, in the English Wikipedia.


And How is it possible that I've never seen any self CV and self BIO in wikipedia Britannica and other printed encyclopedias? I was wikipedist , and I know that copy of original Self written bio means BAN. It is not allowed in encyclopedias. How can you read them, when I can't find them? There is only one possibility: you lie.

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## arvistro

> Because of all Hungarian people of Jewish origin, who are known for their intellect and wittiness ;)


I think in any country most Nobel winners were Jews or of Jewish background. So Hungarian (Jewish) per capita performance is still impressive.

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## Stears555

> I think in any country most Nobel winners were Jews or of Jewish background. So Hungarian (Jewish) per capita performance is still impressive.


It is impressive without Jews (if you count the Jews of other countries)

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## Stears555

However in the field of inventions, Jews were not dominant in Hungary. (Jews were not dominant in science in Hungary until the 1920s.)

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## John Doe

> And How is it possible that I've never seen any self CV and self BIO in wikipedia Britannica and other printed encyclopedias? I was wikipedist , and I know that copy of original Self written bio means BAN. It is not allowed in encyclopedias. How can you read them, when I can't find them? There is only one possibility: you lie.


Never talked about any encyclopedia, talked about Wikipedia.

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## Ike

> Wrong. The secret is our language.





> Our language is an agglutinative language, with very complex structure, that makes it very expressive. Forexample: It is very easy to translate English French German Italian poems to Hungarian language in very good quality, however its opposite is not true.


There are many more languages in the world that would fit in that criteria, so I don't think that is an explanation. I'll stick to the Jewish theory.

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## motzart

Posts like this are a pathetic example of an inferiority complex.

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## Stears555

> Never talked about any encyclopedia, talked about Wikipedia.


Wikipedia does not contain people's self-written bio or self written CV. It is a wikipedia rule. Wiki admins immediately ban those users who try to do that. Therefore you can't find such things on Wikipedia.

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## Stears555

> There are many more languages in the world that would fit in that criteria, so I don't think that is an explanation. I'll stick to the Jewish theory.


It is not true ti IE languages, due to their limited and primitive grammar.

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## Stears555

> Posts like this are a pathetic example of an inferiority complex.


Ok, than come up with your Canadian inventors and scientists. C'mon :)) Can we do a comparison?

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## arvistro

Man, Hungary is only 14th in Nobel science prizes per capita. Most of nations above speak primitive IE language....
So, I take my words back, Hungary is not impressive. Quite good and contributed to science, that is for sure, but nothing extra-terrestrial.

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## John Doe

> Wikipedia does not contain people's self-written bio or self written CV. It is a wikipedia rule. Wiki admins immediately ban those users who try to do that. Therefore you can't find such things on Wikipedia.


I reckon you didn't even bother looking it up on Wikipedia... Sigh... I'll quote it:
"*Hevesy György was born in Budapest, Hungary to a wealthy and ennobled Roman Catholic [7]of Hungarian Jewish descent[8] "
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Hevesy

"He was born as Günszberg Dénes, into a Jewish family in Budapest, Hungary. In 1918, his family converted to Lutheranism.[4] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor

"John C. Harsanyi was born in Budapest, Hungary on May 29, 1920, the son of a pharmacy owner. His parents converted from Judaism to Catholicism a year before he was born.[2] "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harsanyi

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## Stears555

> I reckon you didn't even bother looking it up on Wikipedia... Sigh... I'll quote it:
> "*Hevesy György was born in Budapest, Hungary to a wealthy and ennobled Roman Catholic [7]of Hungarian Jewish descent[8] "
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_de_Hevesy
> 
> "He was born as Günszberg Dénes, into a Jewish family in Budapest, Hungary. In 1918, his family converted to Lutheranism.[4] "
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor
> 
> "John C. Harsanyi was born in Budapest, Hungary on May 29, 1920, the son of a pharmacy owner. His parents converted from Judaism to Catholicism a year before he was born.[2] "
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harsanyi


I had right. Wikipedia (similar to other encyclopedias) does not contain self-written BIO and CV. It is just works of Wikipedians, which does not contain the own national self-determination of the mentioned people. None of them considered themselves as Jewish in their own self-written CV and BIO. Deal with it.

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## Stears555

> Man, Hungary is only 14th in Nobel science prizes per capita. Most of nations above speak primitive IE language....
> So, I take my words back, Hungary is not impressive. Quite good and contributed to science, that is for sure, but nothing extra-terrestrial.


The ratio of our Nobel-awards per capita is much more better than American British French German or Italian. Can you count? It is simple math.

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## Templar

> I had right. Wikipedia (similar to other encyclopedias) does not contain self-written BIO and CV. It is just works of Wikipedians, which does not contain the own national self-determination of the mentioned people. None of them considered themselves as Jewish in their own self-written CV and BIO. Deal with it.


They have Jewish genes in them though. The average ashkenazi IQ is 115-117. IQ is mostly genetic as proven by twin studies.

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## Stears555

> They have Jewish genes in them though. The average ashkenazi IQ is 115-117. IQ is mostly genetic as proven by twin studies.


Wrong . Israel has average IQ: 94

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## arvistro

> The ratio of our Nobel-awards per capita is much more better than American British French German or Italian. Can you count? It is simple math.


Wiki puts Germany and UK above. Switzerland, Denmark, Israel and 8 other countries.

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## Stears555

> Wiki puts Germany and UK above. Switzerland, Denmark, Israel and 8 other countries.



And *HOW*? Can you divide and multiply the numbers? Does the substraction of numbers go well?

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## Templar

> Wrong . Israel has average IQ: 94


Mate, I didn't even mention Israel. I specifically said Ashkenazis. Isreal is only about 30% Ashkenazi. The Sephardic and Arab population bring down the average.

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## Stears555

> Never talked about any encyclopedia, talked about Wikipedia.


Wikipedia is an encyclopedia too, where the self-written own Bio of the people are not allowed , due to copy right problems and Wiki rules. You can not find a single self CV or self-biography in wikipedia. When I wanted to paste the self-written CV quotes of Augustus Caesar, I was banned for a month... Because it is not allowed in wikipedia.

Imre Kertész is not a scientist.

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## Stears555

Here is a better updated version of the topic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-that-MIRACLE

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## oriental

Ted Knight from Mary Tyler Moore Show:

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## oriental

I worked for former military boss who looked very much like Ted Knight.




A dopey guy in front of me distributed cookies after lunch and after half an hour the whole office was giggling. The boss with the same mannerisms as Ted Knight was furious as no one was working. This dopey guy put marijuana seeds in the cookies. He rides a Harley-Davidson motorbike to work. Out of curiosity to test his reflexes, I played a game with him where we had our palms touching and had to hit the other guy's hands before he can move away his hand. I hit his hand every time. It shows he was doped half the time as his reflexes were very slow. I told him since his reflexes are so slow he should not ride his bike as in an accident he might not react fast enough. I left the company and don't know what happened to him.

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## oriental

Nixon jokes about LBJ:

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## Ike

> It is not true ti IE languages, due to their limited and primitive grammar.


It is neither trues for the languages of squirrels, for their lack of vowels and consonants.

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## Ike

> Such a geographic ignorance! Balkan is a peninsula of Europe, and Hungary simply not located on that peninsula. Second: Balkan is an Estern civilization, part of the Orthodox world.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans







Have you ever considered it being a giant chicken? Slovenia included of course, disregarding they would would surely object being a chicken head.

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## John Doe

> I had right. Wikipedia (similar to other encyclopedias) does not contain self-written BIO and CV. It is just works of Wikipedians, which does not contain the own national self-determination of the mentioned people. None of them considered themselves as Jewish in their own self-written CV and BIO. Deal with it.


I never said they identified as Jewish, I thought you said that their Jewish background wasn't mentioned there. Ironically, none of them died or still reside in Hungary.

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## John Doe

> Wrong . Israel has average IQ: 94


If you didn't know, AJs make up about 35-47% of the Israeli population, the rest are Sephardi Jews, Mizrahi Jews or Arabs. Israel is far from a pure Ashkenazi state

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## Stears555

> I never said they identified as Jewish, I thought you said that their Jewish background wasn't mentioned there. Ironically, none of them died or still reside in Hungary.


They visited Hungary regulary before the ww2 and nazi power.
Why had they to go home to a stalinist dictature of Rákosi after ww2? Use your brain!

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## John Doe

> They visited Hungary regulary before the ww2 and nazi power.
> Why had they to go home to a stalinist dictature of Rákosi after ww2? Use your brain!


Good point.

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## Stears555

Here is a better updated version of the topic: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-that-MIRACLE

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## Ike

I haven't seen this stupid nationalistic rants even on Strormfront. Even the most backwards people on that nationalistic driven site are smart enough to see that this would be a bad representation of their country and nation. Since you are still doing it, there is no way you're Hungarian.

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## Stears555

> I haven't seen this stupid nationalistic rants even on Strormfront. Even the most backwards people on that nationalistic driven site are smart enough to see that this would be a bad representation of their country and nation. Since you are still doing it, there is no way you're Hungarian.


So you were a stormfrontist...

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## Angela

> I haven't seen this stupid nationalistic rants even on Strormfront. Even the most backwards people on that nationalistic driven site are smart enough to see that this would be a bad representation of their country and nation. Since you are still doing it, there is no way you're Hungarian.


It appears that not only is it a jingoistic site, it is also a racist site of the worst kind, many of whose members have been arrested in multiple countries. Are you implying that our batch of new posters are from that disgusting venue?

Well, that certainly would explain a lot, wouldn't it?

Members might not be aware of it, but that site is blocked by network administrators in libraries, schools, businesses etc. I assure you that American agencies, along with the European ones, monitor the posts and the posters there and follow their internet trail.

Should these people post here, I'm sure it will also draw scrutiny and be blocked more and more as well. Then, good by to the day when researchers would occasionally post.

Just great.

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## Angela

> I think in any country most Nobel winners were Jews or of Jewish background. So Hungarian (Jewish) per capita performance is still impressive.



Please provide references that 58% of the Nobel Prize winners in all the western European countries are Jewish. By my rough estimate, those kinds of percentages are seen only in the east. For example, it is only just slightly over 20% for Germany, although the vast majority of those entries don't provide much if any background information, so to be fair the numbers might be higher.

More generally, and not addressed specifically to you, why is there suddenly a problem with reading comprehension on this site...or with following the simple rules of logic? Must posters also be instructed how to go to google.com, enter a name, and click *SEARCH?* Then once they get to the relevant article, Wiki or otherwise, how to follow the *footnotes* to the source of the statement? 

The OP attempted to prove the intelligence of "*ethnic Hungarians*" by citing 12 Nobel Prize winners, of whom perhaps 5 at the most were/are ethnic Hungarians. (I'd love to see the 23andme results of those five, by the way. :) 

That is deliberate* falsity* at worst, and misleading at best. It is also *obscene* that a country and an ideology that ostracized and attempted to exterminate its Jews as members of a different "species" of human, should now attempt to claim them to bolster their national insecurity.

Once it was proved that his post was misleading, he changed the argument to say he hadn't been talking about ethnicity at all. On the contrary, that was exactly the point of his argument, and these people, whether they identified as Jews on a professional web site or not (why would they?) were *ethnic* Jews. Religious conversion or even being only a half or quarter Ashkenazim didn't protect them from the gas chambers, but it suddenly means, when it suits, that they weren't Jews?

Then he changed tack again to argue that the Hungarians were, before 1920, great inventors or otherwise eminent in culture. 

I beg leave to doubt. Does he really want to get into a *******contest about which group has contributed the most to Western Civilization even just since, say, 1000 AD? I assure you that Hungary will not appear in the top rank. Nor will the countries from which many of our current import of posters stem. 

In fact, one wonders what kind of a civilization they would have had, if any, without the Jewish communities who moved there in the Middle Ages. Indeed, if one were looking for another reason for the sad state of affairs in these countries for the more than half century since World War II, one could make an argument that the fact that the Jews they hadn't managed to kill spit on the ground and left is another contributing factor. 


Ed. Please do not think that I am "shooting the messenger". Most of this was a general response to the apparent general tenor of the OP's comments, not to you.

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## Stears555

> Please provide references that 58% of the Nobel Prize winners in all the western European countries are Jewish. By my rough estimate, those kinds of percentages are seen only in the east. For example, it is only just slightly over 20% for Germany, although the vast majority of those entries don't provide much if any background information, so to be fair the numbers might be higher.
> 
> More generally, and not addressed specifically to you, why is there suddenly a problem with reading comprehension on this site...or with following the simple rules of logic? Must posters also be instructed how to go to google.com, enter a name, and click *SEARCH?* Then once they get to the relevant article, Wiki or otherwise, how to follow the *footnotes* to the source of the statement? 
> 
> The OP attempted to prove the intelligence of "*ethnic Hungarians*" by citing 12 Nobel Prize winners, of whom perhaps 5 at the most were/are ethnic Hungarians. (I'd love to see the 23andme results of those five, by the way. :) 
> 
> That is deliberate* falsity* at worst, and misleading at best. It is also *obscene* that a country and an ideology that ostracized and attempted to exterminate its Jews as members of a different "species" of human, should now attempt to claim them to bolster their national insecurity.
> 
> Once it was proved that his post was misleading, he changed the argument to say he hadn't been talking about ethnicity at all. On the contrary, that was exactly the point of his argument, and these people, whether they identified as Jews on a professional web site or not (why would they?) were *ethnic* Jews. Religious conversion or even being only a half or quarter Ashkenazim didn't protect them from the gas chambers, but it suddenly means, when it suits, that they weren't Jews?
> ...


Yes they were ethnic Hungarians. Their only mother tongue were Hungarian. Many of them is mixed and baptised. They did not know Hebrew or Yiddish. They considered themselves as Hungarian in their own written CV and BIO. Do you know the definition of ethnicity? 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...lish/ethnicity 

The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition: _the interrelationship between gender, ethnicity, and class.


But speak about inventions in here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-that-MIRACLE_

Why was Italy (and southern European countries) so weak in science and technology and innovation in the 19-20th century, when science became more and more extremly complex.

Can we found the causes of this phenomenon? It would be an interesting topic!

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## Angela

Must I now provide an education in Ashkenazi and/or Sephardi genetics, and definitions of "ethnicity" and "nationality"? I should get *paid* for this.

Ethnicity does not always correlate with national borders. If it did, perhaps Europe would have been spared many of the wars and periodic "ethnic cleansings" of its sad history, most recently seen in the Balkans. 

Ethnicity has *very little* to do with languages in many cases. Hungarians are by and large run of the mill Central Europeans, but they speak a far northeastern if not Siberian language. It may have escaped your attention that there are untold millions of non-ethnically English people living in the U.S. who speak *English.* It's my understanding that it is becoming the lingua franca in India as well. As for the Jews, while the liturgical language may be Hebrew in many cases, European Jews spoke either Ladino, a dialect of Spanish, or Yiddish, a dialect of German, and yet they were not and are not "ethnically" Spanish *or* German. Of course, they also spoke the languages of their host countries. The fact that Hungarian Jews spoke Hungarian, even if, as highly assimilated or converted Jews, they spoke it as their primary language, is *irrelevant*, if you understand the meaning of that term.

The Jewish populations of Europe were and are *not* similar ethnically ( or genetically to use the proper term) to the people of their host populations in central,northern or eastern Europe. Please read and attempt to understand the hundreds of academic papers on the subject before commenting further. You have heard of Google Scholar?

Also please examine the following PCA's (Principle Component Analyses) which include Jewish populations:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bKZbzT7Yir...art%2B2007.jpg
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...09103-f2.2.jpg

The Ashkenazim as a people have been so bottlenecked, thanks to the murderous, evil racism of central, northern and eastern Europeans, that they form their own genetic group. (The ravages of the Inquisition apply to Sephardim, who are not so genetically distinct.) So much so that if someone tests at 23andme, and has even only one great, great, grandparent of Ashkenazi origin, it will show up.

Intelligence is, to quite an astonishing degree, correlated with genetics. The implications are obvious. I sincerely doubt whether the achievements of the *genetic* Jews of Hungary can be attributed to anything at all specifically *Hungarian,* as they achieve similar kinds of honors no matter their country of residence.

You might perhaps have more than a passing acquaintance with the history and philosophy of the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party. It pains me to do it, but here is a quote:

The party's ideology was similar to that of Nazism,[_citation needed_] although a more accurate comparison might be drawn between Austrofascism and Hungarian fascism which was called Hungarism by Ferenc Szálasi – extreme nationalism, the promotion of agriculture, anti-capitalism, anticommunism and militant anti-Semitism. The party and its leader were originally anti-German, so it was a long and very difficult process for Hitler to compromise with Szálasi and his party. The Arrow Cross Party conceived Jews in racial as well as religious terms, although the necessary scientific capital for a widespread and elaborate program of eugenics simply did not exist in Hungary at the time. 

Tell me, when the Hungarian Jews were deported and sent to the camps, did they exempt half Jews or those who had converted, or those who spoke Hungarian as their first language?

And now you wish to claim them?

Of course, perhaps you are one of the civilized, educated Hungarians who are no doubt ashamed of what happened in Hungary during the twentieth century and you are not a subscriber to the vile anti-Semitic beliefs of the Arrow Cross party or the equivally vile beliefs of the Horthyites, who apparently only believed in persecuting those Jews who *didn't* convert.


Pray, enlighten us, so we know exactly what we are dealing with...

On second thought, don't bother. I am going to strictly abide by the rule of signing in before reading the new posts. That way, my block function will operate.

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## Stears555

> Must I now provide an education in Ashkenazi and/or Sephardi genetics, and definitions of "ethnicity" and "nationality"? I should get *paid* for this.
> 
> Ethnicity does not always correlate with national borders. If it did, perhaps Europe would have been spared many of the wars and periodic "ethnic cleansings" of its sad history, most recently seen in the Balkans. 
> 
> Ethnicity has *very little* to do with languages in many cases. Hungarians are by and large run of the mill Central Europeans, but they speak a far northeastern if not Siberian language. It may have escaped your attention that there are untold millions of non-ethnically English people living in the U.S. who speak *English.* It's my understanding that it is becoming the lingua franca in India as well. As for the Jews, while the liturgical language may be Hebrew in many cases, European Jews spoke either Ladino, a dialect of Spanish, or Yiddish, a dialect of German, and yet they were not and are not "ethnically" Spanish *or* German. Of course, they also spoke the languages of their host countries. The fact that Hungarian Jews spoke Hungarian, even if, as highly assimilated or converted Jews, they spoke it as their primary language, is *irrelevant*, if you understand the meaning of that term.
> 
> The Jewish populations of Europe were and are *not* similar ethnically ( or genetically to use the proper term) to the people of their host populations in central,northern or eastern Europe. Please read and attempt to understand the hundreds of academic papers on the subject before commenting further. You have heard of Google Scholar?
> 
> Also please examine the following PCA's (Principle Component Analyses) which include Jewish populations:
> ...


You do not know the difference between Finno-ugric and URalic language group.

Germanic is itself a language family, part of the bigger IE language group. Germanic languages developed in Europe, but ancient proto IE language was Asian. Finno-Ugric is a language family whic originated in N-E Europe, which is part of the hypotethic great Uralic group (However, the existence of Uralic group is not generally accepted.)

Again: These Hungarian Jews did not speak Yiddish or Hebrew, only some rabbi spoke it in a very low level. They had no Jewish culture, they were babtised, and they went to protestant Hungarian elementary and secondary schools and University. So they were assimilated. 


"The party and its leader were originally anti-German, so it was a long and very difficult process for Hitler to compromise with Szálasi and his party." How is the german-hungarian relation related to this topic? Arrow Cross party was not elected, It was Hitler's putch and german occupation of Hungary, which helped the Arrow Cross party to became de facto illegal leader of Hungary in anti-democratic way.

Vichi France and Italy was similarly responsible for Holocaust. Hungary was the only country which did not allowed the transportation of Jews until it was occupied by the German Army. Hungarian state was a victim of Hiter.


This is How it happends:

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## arvistro

Angela, there is no need to go anti-Hungarian because of one *****, as it might eventually be his true goal. 
Ban should be the right action here.

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## Yetos

> Hungary was the only country which did not allowed the transportation of Jews until it was occupied by the German Army. Hungarian state was a victim of Hiter.



hmmm 
so many scientists, so many Nombelists, so smart people,
and got victims by Hitler?

something wrong is here.

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## Angela

> Angela, there is no need to go anti-Hungarian because of one *****, as it might eventually be his true goal. 
> Ban should be the right action here.


Arvistro, I am *far* from being anti-Hungarian. I am sorry if that was the impression that I conveyed. 

I am anti the kind of jingoistic, racist, clap trap that seems to be flooding this site, clap trap posted by people who seem to be predominantly from countries that were once part of the Soviet bloc.

I am going under the assumption, until it is proven otherwise, that the majority of the people in those countries are civilized, intelligent people who are ashamed of some of the darker periods of their past history. It certainly applies to me when considering the past history of my own people.

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## Stears555

> hmmm 
> so many scientists, so many Nombelists, so smart people,
> and got victims by Hitler?
> 
> something wrong is here.


It contains the inventors, whose 90% is not Jewish. (If you do not count assimilated Jews as Hungarians)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-that-MIRACLE

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## Stears555

My new thread: Why Are Hungarians much much better in Sport events than Western European Great Powers? (Number of olympic gold medals since 1896) http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...946#post440946

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## Angela

> Stears: Hungary was the only country which did not allowed the transportation of Jews until it was occupied by the German Army.
> Hungarian state was a victim of Hiter.


Anyone who has ever picked up a college level textbook of European history would know that Hungary allied itself to Germany. Of course, so did Italy.

Anyone who knows anything about the Holocaust or Italian history would know that no Jews were deported from Italy to the death camps until Italy renounced its alliance with Germany and was occupied. 

This is *not* a thread about Italian history, so I will not go into great depth, but deliberate misstatements cannot be allowed to stand. I am NOT an apologist for Mussolini. Hanging was too good for him. I am deeply ashamed that Fascism was created by an Italian. I am also ashamed that Italy adopted anti-semitic laws in the 1930s. 

However, anti-semitism was NOT part of Fascism as originally constituted. Indeed, many prominent supporters of Fascism in the early days were Italian Jews. The anti-Semitic laws were adopted largely under pressure from Germany, where anti-semitism had been grafted onto Fascism. 

As to Italian participation in the planning or execution of the Holocaust, your implications are laughable. As Nazis themselves are quoted as saying, they couldn't include the Italians in any of it because the Italians would never have stomached it.

For anyone actually interested in the subject, this is an excellent summary from the Holocaust Encyclopedia, whose authors, I think, would have no reason to whitewash the Italians. Indeed, I have made a lifelong study of that period in Italian history and I would argue with some of their conclusions. Regardless it is a good beginning. See:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005455
There is a bibliography. I have read all the books and can heartily recommend them. 

You may also not be aware of the fact that Italy was engaged in a virtual civil war during much of the period in question. Many Italians were butchered for opposing the activities of the SS, Gestapo and even the regular German Army. One of them, a distant relative who bore my mother's surname, died in Natzweiler-Struthof. Other relatives, often women and children, were killed at various places all over my valley. So, I find your insinuations personally insulting.

Ed. It is a sad fact that some Italian Jews, embittered by what we *d**id* do, left Italy after the war. We are the poorer for it. However, a good number remained, including Primo Levi, one of our Nobel Prize laureates in literature, and Rita Levi-Montalcini, one of our Nobel Laureates in science. She was also named a Senator for Life by the Italian government. The Luzzatis, the Segres and others continue to make their invaluable contributions to Italian culture.

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## Ike

> It appears that not only is it a jingoistic site, it is also a racist site of the worst kind, many of whose members have been arrested in multiple countries. Are you implying that our batch of new posters are from that disgusting venue?
> 
> Well, that certainly would explain a lot, wouldn't it?
> 
> Members might not be aware of it, but that site is blocked by network administrators in libraries, schools, businesses etc. I assure you that American agencies, along with the European ones, monitor the posts and the posters there and follow their internet trail.
> 
> Should these people post here, I'm sure it will also draw scrutiny and be blocked more and more as well. Then, good by to the day when researchers would occasionally post.
> 
> Just great.


No, no, I'm saying quite different. Based upon my knowledge of the nationalistic behavior, I don't think Stears555 is a Hungarian nationalist. I think he is pretending to be Hungarian. No Hungarian would make claims that are so unbelievable, as we have heard from him in last couple of days.

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## Stears555

> No, no, I'm saying quite different. Based upon my knowledge of the nationalistic behavior, I don't think Stears555 is a Hungarian nationalist. I think he is pretending to be Hungarian. No Hungarian would make claims that are so unbelievable, as we have heard from him in last couple of days.


Please , complain at the Nobel committee and by the Olympic committee, that Hungarians are too successful, please revoke some awards from them:))))

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## LeBrok

Looks like, the super race, Hungarians can't figure out how economy works. How to have good vibrant economy and prosperous modern country.
Perhaps they've kicked out too many Jews?

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## Ike

> Please , complain at the Nobel committee and by the Olympic committee, that Hungarians are too successful, please revoke some awards from them:))))


Great for Hungarians, but what's that got to do with you?

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## Garrick

> Angela, there is no need to go anti-Hungarian because of one *****, as it might eventually be his true goal. 
> Ban should be the right action here.


And he is not ethnic Hungarian and hides behind Hungarian flag.

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