# Europe Forum > Travelling & Living in Europe > Eastern Europe >  What do you consider Southeastern Europe

## tahir0010

Do you consider Italy part as Southeastern Europe, as it seems FTDNA considers this as Southeastern Europe, but I think this is wrong. Anyways what do you think of life in the Balkans if you live there?

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## LeBrok

In my mind I just draw a line from mid France to Hungary and whatever is below is South Europe. It splits Europe into two equal halfs, geographically speaking.

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## Garrick

> Anyways what do you think of life in the Balkans if you live there?


Life in the Balkans has pluses and minuses.

On the minus side Western Europe is much better regulated and rules are respected, also life standard is much better.

On the plus side there is more improvisation, more free behavior and possible in total life is more exciting, life standard and human happiness are different things.

The countries of former Yugoslavia have good healthcare and educational system what is consequence of socialism.

Highest standard of living in the Balkans is in Greece.

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## tahir0010

> Life in the Balkans has pluses and minuses.
> 
> On the minus side Western Europe is much better regulated and rules are respected, also life standard is much better.
> 
> On the plus side there is more improvisation, more free behavior and possible in total life is more exciting, life standard and human happiness are different things.
> 
> The countries of former Yugoslavia have good healthcare and educational system what is consequence of socialism.
> 
> Highest standard of living in the Balkans is in Greece.


Where would you consider living though if you had to choose between Bosnia, Albania, and or Montenegro?

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## Apsurdistan

> Life in the Balkans has pluses and minuses.
> 
> On the minus side Western Europe is much better regulated and rules are respected, also life standard is much better.
> 
> On the plus side there is more improvisation, more free behavior and possible in total life is more exciting, life standard and human happiness are different things.
> 
> The countries of former Yugoslavia have good healthcare and educational system what is consequence of socialism.
> 
> Highest standard of living in the Balkans is in Greece.


Well said. The key to being happy in your environment is the social aspect of it more than anything. When I lived in Bosnia it was a small town and pretty much everybody knew each other and you never felt lonely, people wanted to be social it was a community. We spent more time hanging out on the block or in the park or the soccer field or w/e than you were in your house. Only if something good is on TV you're in your house. I really enjoyed those times. Don't know how it is now I don't hear good things.
As far as the healthcare and education that's probably going away too.
And organic natural food that's probably healthier and has the rich smell and taste also going away.
As far as material things they have all the things there that we have here in America, but they don't have money.

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## A. Papadimitriou

No, geographically the term that makes more sense is 'South Central'. Furthermore, Catholic Europe was 'the West' once upon a time.

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## tahir0010

> Well said. The key to being happy in your environment is the social aspect of it more than anything. When I lived in Bosnia it was a small town and pretty much everybody knew each other and you never felt lonely, people wanted to be social it was a community. We spent more time hanging out on the block or in the park or the soccer field or w/e than you were in your house. Only if something good is on TV you're in your house. I really enjoyed those times. Don't know how it is now I don't hear good things.
> As far as the healthcare and education that's probably going away too.
> And organic natural food that's probably healthier and has the rich smell and taste also going away.
> As far as material things they have all the things there that we have here in America, but they don't have money.


Really? Healthcare, and all of this is good in Bosnia, Macedonia, Kosovo, and all of these places have good healthcare? What about smoking, I heard that is a area that the balkans have not really worked on. I heard people smoke everywhere all the time. I mean people smoke a lot in Turkey also, but there are bans. I heard that isn't very well followed in certain parts of the balkans. I have seen that it was a beautiful place.

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## Yetos

@ Tahir

Balkans are unigue,

once in Balkans, either you hate it, either you love it,
and it has many-many colours, 
colours of far past, colours of medieval times, colours of modern times,
colours of ancient, colours of North Europe. colours of West Europe, colours of Ottoman era, colours of modern times,
and even local colours, no else found in Earth,

as I have said before,
the terms WEST EAST SOUTH etc in Europe are according time and the criteria,
for example the medieval times WEST was the Carlomagnus state, and East the Byzantine,
the times of cold war West was the NATO states, and EAST was the Warsaw impact,
by religion, West is catholic and protestant, East is Orthodox and Muslim
North for some is only the Scans,
for others includes British islands BENELUX and Deutschland,
but also North can be Poland Balts and Russia, etc

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## Apsurdistan

I don't know about the smoking ban, probably will be enforced in the near future.
And there might a first riot in the world over a smoking ban.

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## Garrick

> Where would you consider living though if you had to choose between Bosnia, Albania, and or Montenegro?


Good, I would choose Montenegro coast (middle and northern part) but it is personally because my origin. I visited all the countries of former Yugoslavia and many parts. Belgrade, Montenegro coast and Istria in Croatia are the best places for my taste in area of ex Yugoslavia.

I was not in Albania and cannot speak. But there are very nice places and towns in Bosnia, in both entities, it all depends on what you prefer.

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## Angela

> Well said. The key to being happy in your environment is the social aspect of it more than anything. When I lived in Bosnia it was a small town and pretty much everybody knew each other and you never felt lonely, people wanted to be social it was a community. We spent more time hanging out on the block or in the park or the soccer field or w/e than you were in your house. Only if something good is on TV you're in your house. I really enjoyed those times. Don't know how it is now I don't hear good things.
> As far as the healthcare and education that's probably going away too.
> And organic natural food that's probably healthier and has the rich smell and taste also going away.
> As far as material things they have all the things there that we have here in America, but they don't have money.


This sounds like the way it used to be in my part of Italy. I miss it so much. It's all changing very fast. Honestly, if I wanted to recapture some of it I'd have to move very far south to retire.

Ed. To be scrupulously honest, I could do with less of the savage gossip of the old women, although I myself never did anything to warrant their enmity. I was a virtual saint, I assure you. I wasn't always picked to be the Virgin Mary in every single event both there and in the U.S. for nothing! :)

No dirty jokes, Absurdistan!

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## tahir0010

> Good, I would choose Montenegro coast (middle and northern part) but it is personally because my origin. I visited all the countries of former Yugoslavia and many parts. Belgrade, Montenegro coast and Istria in Croatia are the best places for my taste in area of ex Yugoslavia.
> 
> I was not in Albania and cannot speak. But there are very nice places and towns in Bosnia, in both entities, it all depends on what you prefer.


I mean I would like to live somewhere that is like Turkey, as I want to travel and live in the balkans for a little just to see the life. I want something familiar though. I love Ottoman Architecture, so I guess that means my best bet would be Bosnia, Albania, or Kosovo. I want somewhere I can sit in a tea garden enjoy a glass of tea relax, and have some amazing food and good conversations. I also want to live somewhere I can hear Adhan, so I guess my best bet would be Montenegro in Bar, or Bosnia. I am not going to stay permanently though, just want to stay a couple of months. Is it true though that in Bosnia there is a different phone company for all the ethnicities?

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## Yetos

> I mean I would like to live somewhere that is like Turkey, as I want to travel and live in the balkans for a little just to see the life. I want something familiar though. I love Ottoman Architecture, so I guess that means my best bet would be Bosnia, Albania, or Kosovo. I want somewhere I can sit in a tea garden enjoy a glass of tea relax, and have some amazing food and good conversations. I also want to live somewhere I can hear Adhan, so I guess my best bet would be Montenegro in Bar, or Bosnia. I am not going to stay permanently though, just want to stay a couple of months. Is it true though that in Bosnia there is a different phone company for all the ethnicities?



well lately a number of over 120 000 properties in Greecepassed to Turks,
and estimated to reach 200 000,
Ottoman architecture is in many countries of Aimos,

Bulgaria and Greece have Pomaks, and Muslim minorities from the Ottoman era in certain parts
an ancient population with Islamic Ottoman and private-shelf-sesigned culture,

Skopjie has also a very small Turkish population,

Albania Kossovo and Bosnia are Muslim countries, Albania and Bosnia re more open,

If you are a Laz, i also suggest Greek Makedonia, specially summertime, you can hear the old Rum of Pontos be spoken and dance horon, tik omal lahana serra,
and there are every week travels from Con/polis, or Instanbul, till Thessaloniki done by Turks,
Thessaloniki is a favorite destination for Turks to get married and pass honey moon.
you can also find karalahana food.

Medical conditions all over balkans are the same, no difference from Turkey, except some Greek university hospitals/clinics, mainly specialized for spesific treatment od certain diseases or health problems.
The far you are away from a big city the less you have, or better the basic treatment you will have, but ambulance are always in the run to take you to a bigger hospital,
modern Balkans lack of nothing in a good degree of medicine, except special or unique cases,

*BTW*
it is not allowed to pass medicines from one country to another,
except these in you car pharmacy apotheke, 
if you have to take special medicines, better have a doctors papper on what you must have with you,
and not big quantities,

Halal food can be found anywhere.

to hear muezzin's call it depends according local conditions and laws,
for example in some areas specially villages you can hear all calls every day, 
in some other one call, in some only certain days, and there are places like in some big cities were is forbiden, or is done more quite.

if you want to have a religious tour in Balkans start from GreeK Thrake or Bulgaria, then move to Skopjie and from there to Kossovo Albania or Kossovo Bosnia,
I suggest do not travel alone, and usage of GPS can help, but can also guide you wrong.

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## tahir0010

> well lately a number of over 120 000 properties in Greecepassed to Turks,
> and estimated to reach 200 000,
> Ottoman architecture is in many countries of Aimos,
> 
> Bulgaria and Greece have Pomaks, and Muslim minorities from the Ottoman era in certain parts
> an ancient population with Islamic Ottoman and private-shelf-sesigned culture,
> 
> Skopjie has also a very small Turkish population,
> 
> ...


Yetos what about the city of Sahin in Greece I don't know the name for it in Greek but isn't this a highly Turk area. I am not sure how good of a city it is. What is the best cities for Turks in Greece? I also would like to visit Cyprus even if it isn't balkan. I do want to do a tour of the balkans though. Is it easy to travel pretty freely between the countries or no?

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## Garrick

> I mean I would like to live somewhere that is like Turkey, as I want to travel and live in the balkans for a little just to see the life. I want something familiar though. I love Ottoman Architecture, so I guess that means my best bet would be Bosnia, Albania, or Kosovo. I want somewhere I can sit in a tea garden enjoy a glass of tea relax, and have some amazing food and good conversations. I also want to live somewhere I can hear Adhan, so I guess my best bet would be Montenegro in Bar, or Bosnia. I am not going to stay permanently though, just want to stay a couple of months. Is it true though that in Bosnia there is a different phone company for all the ethnicities?


Yes, I supposed your wishes. About Albania I cannot speak because never was. Kosovo is poor, quality of life is low. Skoplje is good city and there is some oriental architecture and religious objects. Tetovo and Gostivar have more Turkish style objects and you will like them but for me Skoplje is much better for life.

If I choose what you mentioned, Bosnia is much better. If we exclude Republic of Serbian because it is mostly not oriental, we keep attention on other entity: BH federation. Of course Sarajevo is beautiful city and a lot of wonderful people. But if you prefer smaller towns, Tuzla is my recommendation, very good place for life. If you prefer endless beauty Jajce is top one in BH federation for my taste. But I would like that Apsurdistan says about these places because he surely know better. I visited only as tourist, I never lived there.

Beautiful Jajce

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## Apsurdistan

> Yes, I supposed your wishes. About Albania I cannot speak because never was. Kosovo is poor, quality of life is low. Skoplje is good city and there is some oriental architecture and religious objects. Tetovo and Gostivar have more Turkish style objects and you will like them but for me Skoplje is much better for life.
> 
> If I choose what you mentioned, Bosnia is much better. If we exclude Republic of Serbian because it is mostly not oriental, we keep attention on other entity: BH federation. Of course Sarajevo is beautiful city and a lot of wonderful people. But if you prefer smaller towns, Tuzla is my recommendation, very good place for life. If you prefer endless beauty Jajce is top one in BH federation for my taste. But I would like that Apsurdistan says about these places because he surely know better. I visited only as tourist, I never lived there.
> 
> Beautiful Jajce


Well I never even visited as a tourist I've only been in Šamac that's my hometown (now Republika Srpska) its nickname used to be little Paris of Posavina, now it's almost an empty town and mostly an older population living in it. 
Then when I was 4 the war started after that I lived in Slavonija, then Zagreb. Then Orasje a town next to Šamac that remained in BiH. That's it. 

But I hear Gradačac is nice, Tuzla, Mostar, Sarajevo of course... yeah I haven't traveled Bosnia at all further from the Sava river. 

Would love to travel to Turkey as well as the Balkans. I'd like a summer vacation on the Croatian sea coast I've heard many parts of that are great to visit and the people are very hospitable. When my cousin vacationed there locals were telling them they're real glad when they see someone from ex-YU they're like we're sick of all the foreigner tourists lol.

In ex-yu people traveled all over ex-YU all the time. My mom vacationed in Croatia almost every summer. And I asked her did you ever travel to other countries and she says we weren't really interested to travel to other countries. 
Then that war happens and boom now we're all over the world.

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## Apsurdistan

Nice nature documentary about the Balkans, if you're into that.

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## tahir0010

> Well I never even visited as a tourist I've only been in Šamac that's my hometown (now Republika Srpska) its nickname used to be little Paris of Posavina, now it's almost an empty town and mostly an older population living in it. 
> Then when I was 4 the war started after that I lived in Slavonija, then Zagreb. Then Orasje a town next to Šamac that remained in BiH. That's it. 
> 
> But I hear Gradačac is nice, Tuzla, Mostar, Sarajevo of course... yeah I haven't traveled Bosnia at all further from the Sava river. 
> 
> Would love to travel to Turkey as well as the Balkans. I'd like a summer vacation on the Croatian sea coast I've heard many parts of that are great to visit and the people are very hospitable. When my cousin vacationed there locals were telling them they're real glad when they see someone from ex-YU they're like we're sick of all the foreigner tourists lol.
> 
> In ex-yu people traveled all over ex-YU all the time. My mom vacationed in Croatia almost every summer. And I asked her did you ever travel to other countries and she says we weren't really interested to travel to other countries. 
> Then that war happens and boom now we're all over the world.


I heard that Mostar is still a very divided city though, and that it still has a lot of division. I am not sure if this is true though, but I really wanted to go to Mostar it looks so beautiful. Also is it still hard for muslim to go to Serbia after the war. I do not mean this in a bad way, but is there still tension? I would just like to travel the whole balkans. That area just has so much history. It is so beautiful. I feel like now things are starting to get better. I mean I heard that there will always be division, but I heard in the past couple of years things are starting to turn in a good way.

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## Apsurdistan

> I heard that Mostar is still a very divided city though, and that it still has a lot of division. I am not sure if this is true though, but I really wanted to go to Mostar it looks so beautiful. Also is it still hard for muslim to go to Serbia after the war. I do not mean this in a bad way, but is there still tension? I would just like to travel the whole balkans. That area just has so much history. It is so beautiful. I feel like now things are starting to get better. I mean I heard that there will always be division, but I heard in the past couple of years things are starting to turn in a good way.


No there's no tention with Muslims in Serbia don't worry about it. I haven't heard any such thing.
Even in Srpska republic there is no serious tension. If you go to the Croat majority part of Herzegovina though, like west Mostar then maybe some yeah.

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## Garrick

> I heard that Mostar is still a very divided city though, and that it still has a lot of division. I am not sure if this is true though, but I really wanted to go to Mostar it looks so beautiful. Also is it still hard for muslim to go to Serbia after the war. I do not mean this in a bad way, but is there still tension? I would just like to travel the whole balkans. That area just has so much history. It is so beautiful. I feel like now things are starting to get better. I mean I heard that there will always be division, but I heard in the past couple of years things are starting to turn in a good way.


Serbia is free democratic country and a lot of Turks come to Serbia, especially Belgrade for fun, and spa centers for relax and therapy. Because of medical services are quality and developed and not expensive Turks as Arabs and Europeans come as patients.

I told you all depends what you prefer. If you want to live in environment that has preserved a part of oriental heritage and it has quality of life Sarajevo and Tuzla are my recommendation. If you want to travel all countries who mentioned Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia (ex Yugoslav republic) are beautiful and each has its charm. If you want modern urban atmosphere and life 100% per hour Belgrade is the best choice. If you want natural beauties mountains Jahorina and Bjelasnica in Bosnia, Stara Planina and Kopaonik in Serbia, Durmitor in Montenegro and Sar mountain in Macedonia are wonderful. If you like plains some ranches in Backa (Republic of Serbia) are amazing. If you want lakes Ohrid lake in Macedonia is by my taste. If you like sea whole Montenegro coast is beautiful and it has gorgeous scenery, especially I like Boka Kotorska bay.

There are a lot of magical places: for example in Bosnia: Bosnian wellhead (Sarajevo periphery), river Pliva and Pliva lakes (confluence at Jajce town), river Trebisnjica (especially at Trebinje in Republic of Serbian entity), in Serbia: river Uvac (between Zlatibor and Zlatar mountain), Djerdap gorge national park (above the river Danube), canyon of river Jerma (southeastern Serbia), Zasavica wetland (special natural reserve in Srem), in Montenegro: rivers Piva and Tara (these two rivers create Drina river), ecosystem of Scadar lake (part of this lake is in Albania), in Macedonia: Mavrovo national park (including Mavrovo lake and Bistra mountain), Prespa lake (on the border with Greece) etc. This is only sample (I visited all of them), there are many wonderful areas too.

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## Yetos

> Yetos what about the city of Sahin in Greece I don't know the name for it in Greek but isn't this a highly Turk area. I am not sure how good of a city it is. What is the best cities for Turks in Greece? I also would like to visit Cyprus even if it isn't balkan. I do want to do a tour of the balkans though. Is it easy to travel pretty freely between the countries or no?


to travel 'freely' it depends on the passport you have and the agreements between countries,
but that would not be a problem,

about Sahin I do not know what you mean
most Possible is the land of Pomaks, in Greek Εχινος Ehinos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinos
Pomaks is a unique ethnicity/culture

well the preferacture is Xanthi and with Komotene are south of Rodope mountains.
Personally Xanthi old city part is very nice, 
and has many festivals in summer
and was the capital of Anatolian Tobacco (basma) plants centuries now
with also Semisous (Samson karadeniz) 

If you take that road trip then pass from Alexandroupolis Komotene Xanthi/Ehinos Serres were the old monsk is still standing as museum
and offcourse Thessaloniki ( I live 70 km away come visit me for a Greek coffee  :Grin: , ) 
Thessaloniki has many from Ottomans time, included the house of Kemal Attaturk, "(by what i know it was against the road 20 m away)
from there (historically since you are Turk citizen) also pass from the holy city of Vagiazit, Giannitsa 
borders are less than 1 hour and go to Skopjie, 
from there you can decide among Kossovo or Bosnia and choose your road,
wild life in Dadia Olympos Axios river delta and the Karantere, 
karantere is a virgin unigue system protected by international organisations, and you need a license a 'visa' to enter
also can visit the 2 islands on your way, Samothrake and Thasos, and offcourse Chalkidiki  :Good Job: 

If you go from Bulgaria I suggest Velico Tyrvono, Kazanlak and rose gardens, fields full of roses, and Plovdiv (Phillipopolis) 
also if it is easy for you visit Burgas (Pyrgos) Sozopolis Agathopolis,
from Plovdiv decide and go from Blakoevgrad to Kossovo 
or from Sofia to Bosnia,

anyway for Bulgaria Skopjie Serbia Kossovo Bosnia Albania there are many members here that can help you.

I do not know about prices in Turkey, Greece is a little bit higher than some other balkan countries

Tahir if you are not a provokative or an assault / insulting Muslim, nobody cares about you,
even jihadists of ISIS pass  :Grin: 
From Greece every year pass more than 3 million Turks from West Europe to go to Turkey
and from Serbia Bulgaria also other 3-4 millions,
nobody cares, 
except the drivers  :Laughing: , cause we understand Turks by the way they drive,
they go like caravan 3-9 cars and do not allow someone to pass front or among them, with high risk for accident.

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## tahir0010

> to travel 'freely' it depends on the passport you have and the agreements between countries,
> but that would not be a problem,
> 
> about Sahin I do not know what you mean
> most Possible is the land of Pomaks, in Greek Εχινος Ehinos.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinos
> Pomaks is a unique ethnicity/culture
> 
> well the preferacture is Xanthi and with Komotene are south of Rodope mountains.
> ...


No I am not like that I just go to the mosque, and pray and mind my own business. I was just wondering because there has been tension in that area. If I got I def want to visit Greece I would probably start driving from Istanbul and then go into Ehinos. Pomaks do they speak Turkish or do they have there own language? I would deff come enjoy a greek coffee. I mean we are all brothers of that area. I would love to go see the balkans after Greece, but I have always wanted to see greece. I have dual citizenship so I do not think that it would be hard to travel. I want to go see Bosnia. So greece is actually more expensive right now then turkey?

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## Yetos

> No I am not like that I just go to the mosque, and pray and mind my own business. I was just wondering because there has been tension in that area. If I got I def want to visit Greece I would probably start driving from Istanbul and then go into Ehinos. Pomaks do they speak Turkish or do they have there own language? I would deff come enjoy a greek coffee. I mean we are all brothers of that area. I would love to go see the balkans after Greece, but I have always wanted to see greece. I have dual citizenship so I do not think that it would be hard to travel. I want to go see Bosnia. So greece is actually more expensive right now then turkey?



Greece is more expencive than other Balkan countries,
I do not know considering Turkey.

unleaded 100 per litter 1.50-1.75 E

at west Thrace many can speak Turkish.
Pomaks have their language , but most there are trillingual.
Pomak Greek Turkish

Notice
In Greece Fully operational Monsk are only in Thrace due to the exchgange treaty of 1923,
outside Thrace most Monsk are museums, and operate few days per year,
working monsk are mostly appartments, and mainly each nationality has its own.

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## Apsurdistan

Is the Greek coffee like the Ottoman style coffee with teacups? Bosnians drink coffee like that. I served it to some of my American friends and they weren't good at handling it, too strong for them.

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## tahir0010

Yes it is the same with Turkish coffee, and Turkish tea people who aren't used to it are say it is so strong. I love tea... Yetos are you Pomak originally or are you Greek 100% you know a lot about them. It is hard to find out about them, and even with Turkish sites there is not a lot.

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## Maciamo

For mean Southeast Europe is basically all the Balkans and Carpathians and what lies in the middle. So from Slovenia to Romania and Moldova and south all the way to Greece. I don't included Italy in SE Europe, but geographically it's debatable for South Italy.

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## tahir0010

> For mean Southeast Europe is basically all the Balkans and Carpathians and what lies in the middle. So from Slovenia to Romania and Moldova and south all the way to Greece. I don't included Italy in SE Europe, but geographically it's debatable for South Italy.


Yes I was trying to figure out why the FTDNA includes Italy in southeastern. I heard it is because all of the DNA from that area to turkey is very closely connected?

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## Balkanite

From Sicily to Istria, 
Istria to Odessa, 
Odessa To Constantinopel, 
Constantinopel to Hallicarnassos, 
Halicarnassos to Sparta, 
Sparta to Sicily.

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## tahir0010

> From Sicily to Istria, 
> Istria to Odessa, 
> Odessa To Constantinopel, 
> Constantinopel to Hallicarnassos, 
> Halicarnassos to Sparta, 
> Sparta to Sicily.


What do you mean?

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## Balkanite

> What do you mean?


If you draw a line from each location to the next, you get an outline of what i would call Southeastern Europe. 
But of course, there is not one correct definition. This is just my thoughts on what SE Europe is.

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## LABERIA

> If you draw a line from each location to the next, you get an outline of what i would call Southeastern Europe. 
> But of course, there is not one correct definition. This is just my thoughts on what SE Europe is.


Sicily is not SE Europe. Adriatic and Ionian sea are the borders between East and West. Basically, Balcans are considered South East Europe.

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## Balkanite

> Sicily is not SE Europe. Adriatic and Ionian sea are the borders between East and West. Basically, Balcans are considered South East Europe.


There is not one true definition. The definitions are political. 
Why call it Europe then? Isn't Europe really just the westernmost extension of Asia?
We call it Europe because we do not want to put ourselves in the same box as asians. Probably because we have more history and culture in common with each other within Europe, than we have with the asians.
Also for the same reasons i don't think one can speak of southeastern european identities, histories and cultures without incorporating western anatolians and southern Italians. 
Just because it is part of Italy today, does not mean that it was not within the influential sphere of ancient greek and illyrians. 
And just because Constantinopel is no longer ours, it is still the place where our emperors pushed through the laws which would eventually clear the way for the modern laws we have in Europe today. 

So yea, if Constantinopel, the most important city of SE European history is not SE european, then Europe i also just the westernmost part of asia.

Geologically speaking, Europe does not exist. But we make up these definitions for political and historical reasons.
So as Europe does not exist, so doesn't SE Europe. But we invent the terms anyway. And what meanings we put on these invented terms, is something we choose subjectively. There is no controlling instance to tell which definition is the absolute true and omnishading definition of the term.

But yes, i would agree that your definition is far more widely accepted. But that is because of the misconception that Europe really is a geological continent, and that we therefore must chop it up into further parts, just like we do with other continents.

And judging by the fact that the word europe is just a historical and cultural construct(and not a geological one), leads me to believe that dividing europe into further parts, should also be consistent with the original method. Beginning to divide a cultural construct up by purely geograpical criteria is inconsistent with the starting method.

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## Balkanite

> Sicily is not SE Europe. Adriatic and Ionian sea are the borders between East and West. Basically, Balcans are considered South East Europe.


I would rather rephrase what you said into that the balkans is the core area of SE europe today. While Anatolia and southern Italy are drifting away from the SE european cultural identity sphere. South italians drifting towards germano-celtic shpere. Western anatolians drifting towards turkic sphere.

The reach of SE european power throughout antiquity has been so great, that the core area at that time streched from Rome to Constantinopel. But i will agree with you that our core is not that big anymore. But the connections between balkans and south italy is still strong both genetically and linguistically. The same is true(to some degree) for western anatolians and balkans.

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## Yetos

> Yes it is the same with Turkish coffee, and Turkish tea people who aren't used to it are say it is so strong. I love tea... Yetos are you Pomak originally or are you Greek 100% you know a lot about them. It is hard to find out about them, and even with Turkish sites there is not a lot.


Genetically I am a neolithic Farmer 
Caucasian mainly

for ethnicity as far I know my family is connected with the area I live, Makedonia and always spoke Greek, their own dialect and style.
I can not certify 2000 years ago,
one of my grand grandma was Aromani.


original Pomaks are a closed society, 
yet I had 1 fellow student at University,
and happened to find him 2 years when I went Alexandroupoli to Samothrake

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## tahir0010

> Genetically I am a neolithic Farmer 
> Caucasian mainly
> 
> for ethnicity as far I know my family is connected with the area I live, Makedonia and always spoke Greek, their own dialect and style.
> I can not certify 2000 years ago,
> one of my grand grandma was Aromani.
> 
> 
> original Pomaks are a closed society, 
> ...


What would be the DNA of the Pomak from what I am reading they are Bulgarians who accepted Islam... They have so much in common with the laz people, but the laz obviously are from almost the whole other side of the world (not really but Greece, and Georgia are not closely related at all.)

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## Yetos

> What would be the DNA of the Pomak from what I am reading they are Bulgarians who accepted Islam... They have so much in common with the laz people, but the laz obviously are from almost the whole other side of the world (not really but Greece, and Georgia are not closely related at all.)


No nothing with Laz by what I know until now,
Pomak language is satem and sounds like Bulgarian by it is not Slavic
yet you could say that is in a wider Balto-Slavic family,
their DNA shows clearly endogamy and existance of known Mediterrenean blood geneticks which is rare or non exist in both Slavs or Laz etc 
but common in Mediterrenean population.
genetists believe they exist there more than 2000 years isolation,
and possibly connected with ancient Thracians or other nation from around mediteranean,
At Byzantine and Ottoman times they were connected with Islam that is why they are named Pomaks.
Pomak is wider name for million around Greece Bulgaria and European Turkey,
but many of them are not Pomakoi, just other,
True Pomaks live in Rodope among Greece and Bulgaria, and some moved around Adrianoupolis (Edirne) late century
their majority lives in W Europe specially Deutschland and Australia

true Pomaks are not Bulgarians neither Greeks neither Turks,
*they have HBO-Arab* so high that can not be connected with Pontos area neither Grussia neither true Bulgarians or Slavs 
only with ancient tribes close to Aegean, were HBO is high,
to understand genetik say that at least 2000 years exist as tribe and in an Aegean area, or East meditterenean,
so the most possible is to come from ancient Thracians

see 
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6345
http://www.he.duth.gr/conference/att.../ABSTRACTS.pdf

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## A. Papadimitriou

> What would be the DNA of the Pomak from what I am reading they are Bulgarians who accepted Islam... They have so much in common with the laz people, but the laz obviously are from almost the whole other side of the world (not really but Greece, and Georgia are not closely related at all.)


Based on a small sample their major haplogroups seemd to be I2a1, R1b, I1, E while there's also J2. Today in Greece, many Pomaks have Turkish identity, though.

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