# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Germanic tribes Genetically and Historcalley

## Fire Haired

Reconstruction of a "Red Franz". Who is a bog body. found in Germany alot of his flesh and bones where preserved and his facial and head hair was preserved By looking at his thigh muscles it seems that he ride horses ofenlley. He had a healed wound on his left arm possibly cause by an arrow head so he was probably a warrior. He died by getting his throat slashed so someone murdered him but probably not in battle.



I am not completely Finished and i will keep editing to make this more accurate. If there are any corrections or add on's someone who known's alot about Germanic tribes wants to make please post it. 

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Origin of the Germanic tribes
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_Through a mix of R1a1a1 European hunter gathers from the steppes mixed with mid eastern farm from the caucus with R1b P297 gave birth to Indo European culture and language. It is hard to say who where first people to speak a Indo European language. R1b M269(son of R1b P297) was already settled in Russia over 7,000ybp. So the Indo European language and culture most likley started in Russia and Ukraine about 7,000-8,000ybp. It was people mainly descended from the Russian and Ukrainian European hunter gathers who spread the language.



There where different Russian/Ukrainian's Indo European ethnic groups 6,000ybp. From 6,000 and 5,000 year old DNA from early Indo Europeans in southern Russia they had pale skin like Europeans today and mainly brown eyes like the people in that area today. 3,800 year old DNA from early Indo iranien Indo Europeans in south Siberia who migrated out of Russia 5,000ybp. Had mainly light eyes and light hair some later remains had red hair. So some early Indo Europeans in Russia and Ukriane 6,000ybp where very light haired and eyed and had alot of red hair some where almost only brown haired and brown eyed or a mix of the two.

It seems like the Germanic Italo Celts where very red haired people because there is strong evidence all red hair in western Europe is from Germanic Italo Celts (click here it kind of explains it). It does not seem that they also had alot of blonde hair like the Indo iraniens though. So they may have been like the Udmurts in central Russia today and Irish people 10-20% red hair and 70-80% brown hair.

The Germanic Italo Celtic speakers migrated to Germany about 5,000ybp. Which explains why two 4,600 year old Y DNA samples from central Germany had R1b but where negative for Germanic R1b S21/U106. There are 31 y DNA samples in western Europe from 7,000-4,725ybp none had R1b so this obviously means 4,600ybp R1b L11/P310 Germanic Italo Celts where already in Germany. 

They migrated from either Russia-Poland-Germany or Russia-Bulgaria-Germany. Then about 4,500ybp the Italo Celts split into R1b S116/P312 and conquered modern day austira and started Unetice culture the Germans split into R1b S21/U106 conquered modern day Denmark, south Norway and Sweden and started the Nordic Bronze age which is where Germanic culture was born about 4,000ybp. Eupedia's migrations maps (made by Maciamo) explain how all migrations in Europe from 8,000-3,000ybp happened very accurately (click here to see the maps).

Sword from Nordic bronze age


The first Germanic speakers where a mix of native central Europeans who had Y DNA I2a2 and I1a and Germanic's who had mainly R1b S21/U106 and then later Danish/south Scandinavians who had I1a2, with a little R1a Z284. Since the Germanics where the dominate group who conquered the central Europeans and south Scandinavians most of the Y DNA was R1b S21/U106. The red hair and probably most of the brown hair came from the Germanic's most of the blonde hair probably comes from the central Europeans and south Scandinavians. But figuring out where the hair colors come from is much harder that is just my theory.

Most archaeological experts agree that from about 4,000-2,700ybp. The Germanic language and culture only existed in Denmark, southern Scandinavia, northern Germany, and Netherlands to Vistula. Then Migrated to all other German speaking areas after 700bc. Since the German language migrated from Germany to Scandinavia there is a chance some people with a related language and culture with R1b S21 lived in Germany 4,000-2,700ybp.

I think very good evidence for this idea. Is a 3,000 year old R1b sample in Lichtenstein Cave apart of Ceramic part of Urnfield culture. Lichtenstein Cave is literally right in the center of Germany. U can see on the link if gives the R1b its haplotype so i put that haplotype into a haplogroup predictor click here to see the predictor i used. I got Frisan R1b=> 33%,R1b S21*=>33%. Frisan people are Germanic and have 30-40% R1b S21 so that means this 3,000 yer old central German. Most likely had Germanic R1b S21/U106 which also means a group of people who spoke a related language to German was settled in Germany or they where a Germanic people.

Germanic ancestry in Europe today

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_The Germans are extremly important in European history, world history, and ancestry of alot of Europeans. 

Maciamo head of this website and a huge expert in history and genetics made his own map of Germanic paternal lineages in Europe. He combined all I1 subclades (except ones of Finnish origin), all I2a2a M223, R1a Z284, R1b L238(a Norse subclade of Italo Celtic R1b S116), and of course the true Germanic R1b S21/U106._


_Honestly i dis agree with Maciamo's map alot. I1 and I2a2a are pe germanic .They where there before Indo European migrations. also R1a Z284 came from proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture it came there about 1,000 years before Germanic languages. I bet most of it was spread by Germans but not all. I1 is very popular in Finland and Finalnd has nothing to do with Germans they have been speaking a Urlaic language for 8,000 years since the Kunda culture from Siberia conquered them. Also Many Germanic tribes during their Iron age migrations came from Scandinavia. Scandinavians have mainly I1a2 but the rest of Europe has I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, and I1b so it does not come from Scandinavia or Germans._

_It is debatble how much of I1a1, I1a3, I1a4, I2a2, R1a Z284 and I1b was actulley spread by Germans. Germans where never in Turkey they where not as spread out as these lineages are. Also R1b S21 is about 20-40% in the areas Germanic tribes migrated out of and I1 is about 15% or if in Scandnvai 40% but I1 is very spread out in Europe and is almost never the Scandnavien subclade I1a2, So we know the I1 in most of Europe if it came from Germans it would be Germans not from Scandnavia so they would have about 15% I1 and 20-40% R1b S21 but I1 is much more popular it is about 1-5% in for example Greece but Germanic R1b S21 is 0%. I have already made threads that explain why i think most I1 is not from Germans._

_Also Maciamo added all I1a2 in Scandinavia as being form Germans no it is not it was already there. That is why central Norway and Swedan have such high amount of Germanic Y DNA because actulley they kept more of the native I1a2 because they where farther away from German invasions 4,000-3,5000ybp._ 

_In my opinion this is the most accurate map of Germanic lineages but i would add some I2a2 and I1 but it is debatable how much._

_This is the Germanic marker R1b S21 it was people with this haplogroup that created the German language.They conquered and mixed with I2a2, I1, and R1a Z284 then spread it. U can see that it is most popular in Enland and lowlands of Scotland that is where heavy Anglea, Saxon, and Jute invasions came 400-600ad. The Germans kicked out and killed off the Romano Britons. Modern Welsh, Irish, Highland Scottish, western Cornish, and Britanny are the last people to have about 100% Insular Celtic blood. Overall England and lowlands of Scotland probably have the most Germanic lineages(but lowlands Scottish still have alot of Insular Celtic R1b L21) well tied with northern Germany which is where the Germans who conquered Britain came from. Modern English have mainly northern Germanic ancestry with some Insular Celtic. Modern english and lowlands Scottish have over 50% blonde hair like northern Germany and south Scandinavians this is probably because they have so much Germanic ancestry. 

The stereotype that Germans are suppose to be blonde haired and blue eyed(even though from my own experience seeing German people it is pretty true) is note exactly from the Germanic speakers. in Scandinavia blonde hair is more popular in non German Finland the super high amount of blonde hair in Scandinavia is from pre German people who came ell over 4,000 years ago. It is true that Germany the country has more blonde hair than other western and central Europeans they also probably get this from the pre Germanic people. Red hair in Germany and south Scandinavia almost defintley comes from the first German speakers it seems like all red hair in western Europe is from Germanic Italo Celtic speakers who migrated there 5,000ybp (click here is kind of explains it)

U can see that R1b S21 matches areas in eastern Europe east Germanic speaking tribes Goths and Vandals first settled and it expands pretty far east. Also northern Italy has about 1-5% Germanic R1b S21 and Italy was apart of Gothic and Lombardy Germanic kingdom in the early middle ages. R1b S21 in France is probably because of the Germanic Franks who migrated from northwest Germany and around Belgium and conquered Roman Gaul in the 400-500ad. Sicily surprisingly has R1b S21 thought the island at 1-5% and 5-10% in northern Sicily this is probably because in the early middle ages different Germans took control over Sicily over 100's of years. Basically the people in Europe with alot of Germanic ancestry are who u would except people who speak Germanic languages. The first German speakers in northern Germany 4,000ybp would have been a mix of invading Germanic italo Celts from the Balkans and before that Russia with R1b S21 and the native people who had I2a2, I1, and some G2a.

I am American and most of my ancestry is Germanic Insular Celtic also takes a big junk and i have some Gaulic and maybe some Slavic. Most white Americans have at least some or mainly Germanic ancestry the majority of American Presidents have been mainly Germanic. In the 1990 cenus 50% of total Americans claimed some ancestry from the country Germany but there are also other major Germanic countries like England, Norway, Denmark, Austria, and Sweden the percentage would probably go over 60%. In the mid west and northern central and western states in the USA most people are mainly Germanic. When i ask a white person in America where do u come from Germany is almost always the first country they mention. When i go into rural areas everyone is German pretty much. Almost all Farmers in the mid west and western areas of the USA are German. Of course there are the Amish who speak their own form of German and dont use modern technology looking at them is like going back in time. Overall most Germanic blood for a country or region is definaly in the USA. Overall Germans might be the biggest ethnicy or second biggest in Europe after Slavic's._ 



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Iron age Migrations
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Map of Germanic migrations from 750bc-1ad

_Like i said before most experts believe the Germanic tribes prior to 700bc only lived in Denmark southern Scandinavia, northern Germany and the Netherlands to Vistula possibly also parts of central Germany. Also that all Germanic languages not in those areas come from Germanic migrations after 700bc in the Iron age. In archaeology it seems that Germanic tribes descended from Nordic Bronze age culture made migrations from southern Scandinavia to coast of eastern Germany toward Vistula. These Germanic tribes where heavily influenced by Hallstatt and Urnfield Celts with R1b S28 ad other R1b S116 subclades who where migrating north from mainly around Austira. I already explained in the thread R1b S28 and R1b S116 Beast Iron and Bronze age Italo Celtic warrior DNA marker. That Italo Celtic warriors dominated bronze and Iron age western and central Europe. Iron had triggered their migrations into Italy and further into western and northern Europe. The Germanic tribes from 850-650bc where faced against very powerful warriors. I am sure they had to fight to keep their new land. 

In 250bc there where many Germanic migration too the south. Archaeology and linguistic evidence says that there where 5 distinct language groups in this migration. North Germanic in southern Scandinavia, North sea Germanic along the north sea and Jutland, Rhine-Wesser Germanic ( a West Germanic langauge ancestral to Dutch and other Low Franconoian languages) along the middle Rhine and Wesser, Elbe Germanic( a West Germanic language ancestral to High German) along the middle Elbe, and East Germanic (a extinct branch of the Germanic language family) between the middle Oder and Vistula. These migrating Germanic tribes where heavily influenced by Hallstatt/ La Tene Celts. Influence by Celts in Germanic tribes reached as far north as the traditional areas of the Nordic Bronze age in south Scandinavia.

The ancestors of the east Germanic speaking Vandals and Goths had migrated from south Scandinavia to Poland by in between 200bc-1ad. They quickley spread and conquered almost all of non Roman eastern Europe which was ruled before that by Slavic tribes and Indo Irnaian(Sycthien and Sramatien) tribes. The Slavics would have had aabout 50-60 R1a1a1b1 and the Indo Irnaian tribes may have been slavic by blood if not they would have had almost only R1a1a1b2. The Vandals and Goths where most likley just the high ranking leaders because Germanic Y DNA R1b S21 and I1 subclades are very rare in those areas today.

Map of Germanic territory and language families in 1ad
__map of Germans and their language family in 1AD. Blue North Germanic, Red North sea Germanic, Orange Weser-Rhine Germanic, Yellow Elbe Germanic, Green east Germanic
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map of Germanic territory in 200ad.
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U can see that R1b S21 extends in eastern Europe at 1-5% matching the map of magna Germania
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Pre migration period Germanic Roman and Civilized world relations

The backwoods Germanic tribes around 200bc began to meet up with civilized Rome they where from two completely different world's from each other. The Germans had been isolated in far northern Europe since 2000bc they where straight from Bronze and Iron age European cultures. They had influence from Gauls since 700bc who where a little more civilized and had some contact with the civilized world. The Romans where apart of the civilized world around the Mediterranean and the middle east. From what Roman writers say it was the primitive Barbarian world vs the civilized tamed world. Of course those Roman writers where biased and claimed the Romans where the good guys and the Germans where total sabotages. Even though it was Rome who conquered and massacred people all over Europe, north Africa, and the middle east. It is true the Germans defintley where sabotages they would have conquered all of western Europe and much of eastern Europe if Rome never got in their way.

Compared to the rest of the world the Germans where very advanced but compared to Rome, Greece, north Africa, middle east, India, China they where not. The Germans had iron, bronze, farming, chariots and alot of other advanced stuff. But what they did not have was civilization which is not just advanced technology it is a type of society which is the main difference from the Germans Rome and the rest of the civilized world.

The Germans where apart of a tribal society and a more primitive world than the Romans. To us modern western people the Germans would seem like wild violent people living in the foreasts or in remote areas as farmers. The German men ofentlley had long hair and big beards and the women would have very long wild hair. The Romans men had short hair and shaved alot the women hair was ofentlley put in fancy styles and not as wild and long as Germans. The Germans wore tunics with colorful patterns like Celts and modern Irish and Scottish, trouser, and animal skins (click here a link which explains German and Celtic clothing) the Romans wore toagas which are like fancy robes and tunics.

It is hard to explain it but basically Romans and Germans where two extremely different people. I know that is part of the reason Romans hated them if the Germans could write i am sure they would insult the Romans for being fancy or soft.

Germans on top Romans on bottom.


Rome and civlized world's idea on Germanic character

According to ancient writers the phiscal features of Germans was tall, had big frames, and muscaller bodies. Tactus says they had red hair and blue eyes other writers just said they had more yellow hair than Gauls. Basically they would have looked no different from modern people in Germany. The Germanic tribes in Scandinavia looked like modern Scandinavians . Ancient writers also say they had big tempers and where aggressive add that to their height and big frames for those parts is what ancient writers showed alot of respect to Germans and was their most respected feature overall. 

Julies Caesar say they did not farm that much and mainly hunted for food and had Domesticated animals. Their diet was mainly Milk, Cheese, and meat also that their lifestyle had alot of Phiscal activity .Their diet was full of protein and exresise which is probably why they where known to be so big. Tacitus also said the Germans where the most hospitable people they where extremely nice to strangers. Also that they lived a very very rural life and around forests. Tactus also said the Germans where not able to endure hard work, Heat and thirst, and cannot enure the hunger and cold their climate put on the. 

Germanic tribesman after the hunt according to Tacitus 
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The Germans society was tribal unlike Romans and the civilized world, But like all Humans they where pretty organized and had many rules. Tactus say their armies where not formed by random people who dont know each other, or in the control of a far away government it was from a family or clan probably because they where tribal they where not controlled by a big government far away they where blood relatives and family. The Women and children where the warriors biggest applauders during battle and that the warriors wanted them to witness their bravery. The warriors would bring their wounds to their mothers and wife's after battle and that the mothers and wives where very encouraging to them.

Most ancient writers from the early Roman Geman period did not go into detail about German religion. Probably because they did not understand it. Romans would call German Gods after their own if they did similar things. They say the Germans sacrificed and sometimes sacrificed Humans. Tactus who was descended from La Tene Gaulic tribes that migrated to Italy from 600-300bc but he grew up as a Roman. He was trying to right a historcal writting on Germans but he was also trying to show Romans how they have left their traditional ways. That Germans lived a more simple life and where like the old time Romans. Some ancient writers admired the simple life Germans lived and their morality laws like no one is allowed to have sex till their 18-20 and that men are only allowed to have one wife and not marry more out of lust. These are like laws Rome had but where broken and forgotten after Greek influence which brought other sexual sinful thing like homosexuality.

The basic idea Romans and other civlized people around 100bc-110ad had on Germans. Was they where simple country people living in forest, tall, big , and brave fighters, low endurance, moral, primitive. Romans ofentlly complemented Germans but they really did hate them like they did other non Romans. When they had victories over Germans they made statues insulting German tribes showing Romans defeating them in battle. The Roman population and government deifntley did not like Germans.

Pre Migration period German Roman wars

According to Roman authors From 200-100bc there where many Germanic invasions of Celtic Gaul some invasions went as far south as Spain and Italy. Germanic tribes Cimbri, Teutons, and Abrones from Denmark had a major war with Rome from 109-100bc. Cimbri, Teutons, and Abrones who would have had about 30-40% Y DNA I1a2, 30-40% R1b S21/U106. Migrated south out of Denmark and had many successful battles against Gaulic Celts. They also invaded Gauls who where allied with Rome so Romans came to help their allies and where defeated almost completely annihilated by the Germanic tribes at the battle of Noreia. So the Germanic tribes have made a very terrifying first impression to Rome showing they had more powerful military force than the Gauls and possibly even a great civilization like Rome. 

After this these German tribes don't decide to invade Italy they keep migrating in Gaul and face the Romans in many battles and winning most of them. These Germanic tribes planned to invade the Roman republic in 105bc. The Germans defeated the Romans at the battle of Arusio killing about 112,000 Roman soldiers. Rome was in panic a major new threat had just formed in the north. It seemed like the Germans where going to destroy and sack Rome like Gauls did in 390bc. 

While the Cimbri and other Germans in 103bc had many successful pillages of Iberia. The Romans where able to stop the German invasion of Italy. They stopped the Cimbri at the Po river in 101bc at the battle of Vercelle. As the Germanic tribes faced defeat against Rome in Italy many of their chiefs where killed in battle and the women and children committed suicide to avoid slavery. The Cimbri where almost completely anhilated except some may have survived in Denmark till 100ad. Some surviving German captives where reported as being gladiators in the Third Servile war 73-71bc.

Map of Cimbri and Teuton migrations and battles against Rome Cimbri or Teuton defeats green Cimbri and Teuton victory


This Roman Germanic war from 109-100bc showed Romans that the Germans where a very big threat. That they where brave fighters and are probably the second most powerful people in Europe with Rome at number one. Julius Caesar used the German threat as one of his justification for conquering the Gauls because Rome had to control more northern areas to defend against Germans. Ceasar says at one time the Gauls had more military prowess than the Germans and had invaded and taken German land acroos the Rhine. He says the Gauls had been indulged in Luxuries and civilization, and Because of this the Germans where tougher and at the time they had been defeating the Gauls.

So now by 1ad Romans had taken up almost all of the Celts land(except Ireland and Scotland) Celts where Germans biggest competitors. The Germans where becoming the next super power in central and western Europe then the Romans took their spot. Germans where a war like people so they defintley had problems with Rome and Rome was war like and was very expansive so they had problems with Germans. The Germans had a tribal society and rural the Romans where civilized and more urban these and many other things cause Germanic Roman wars.

The Germanic tribes Sugambri, Tencteri, Usipetes had major victories over Rome in 16bc. Then to teach the Germans who's boss Rome conquered much of Germania and where going to attempt a full conquering of the Germanic tribes known as magna Germania. Romans where forcing many Germans to leave their traditions and become like Romans. This really really got Germans pissed

The result was the battle of Teutoburg foreast in 9 AD which is one of the most famous Roman defeats. An alliance of Germanic tribes lead by Arminus and Cherusci ambushed and defeated the Roman legions and auxiliaries of Publis Quinctlilus Varus. Once again the Germans prove themselves as a worthy threat to Rome.

Here is a video reconstructing the battle of Teutoburg forest. The Germans are basically how Roman art depicted them they had the right clothing but the beards and hair sometimes are a little to long. So this video is fairly accurate but not perfect.




It seems that the Germanic tribes where ready to migrate and conquer the Celts and much of Europe. Then the civilized organized Romans with their smart generals and unlimited amount of full equipped solders get in their way. This must have gotten the Germans jealous and angre at Rome. Germans seemed to be so eager to migrate and conquer starting around 200bc. The Celts couldn't beat them and it seemed at first Rome couldn't either but because Rome was organized and now had almost the entire Celtic world and the Mediterranean there is no way the Germans could conquer Rome now.

GErmans in invaded the western and eastern parts of the ROman empire. Vandlas and Goths invaded Roman ares in the Danbue Franks and other west Germanic tribes invaded wareas around France. The Romans had an incrdble military and where able to stop the Germans attacks. But eveentulley Rome lost power and became weak and the Germans became more civilized and advanced like Rome. Germans conquered western Roman empire from 469-500ad and created medieval Europe many times they tried to copy Rome.
Major Hunnic and German Barbarian migrations and invasions of Rome and Germanic Kingdoms which dominated all former western roman empire and created Medieval Europe.



_The migrations period was pretty much barbaric tribes Germans and Huns conquered the land in Europe outside of the Roman empire. And also beating up on Rome and Germanic tribes eventulley conquered the entire western Romans empire. At this time in Europe the it was Barbarians trying to gain power and Rome trying to keep their power. Christianity was spread like crazy first around the mid east, north Africa, Italy, and Greece but quickly after that spread like within all of the roman empire. the Germans who dominated almost all of Europe outside of Rome and the Gaelic tribes in Ireland and Pict tribes in Scotland also became christian. So pretty much all of Europe became mainly Christian from 33-600ad.
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Also the Germans who dominated non Roman Europe where heavily influenced by Rome. They left many of their German tradition partly because they became Christian and because they became more civilized like Rome. The Germans where able to conquer the western Roman empire by about 600ad they where not tribal societies anymore. They where organized civilizations and could relate and be respected by civilizations in the middle east, north Africa, and eastern roman empire. The Germans created Medieval Europe. The stereotypical castles and knights all comes from Germanic kingdoms in western Europe. The brave knight saving the princess from the dragon or whatever is from old Germanic tribes folk stories and mythology. Medieval Europe idealized knights and war alot because the ancient Germanic tribes where a very warrior centered people group. 

Many Germanic and Insular Celtic medieval Europeans who could write wanted their ancestors traditions and stories to live on because Europe's culture was completely changed by Rome and the medieval age. So many Germanic kingdoms wrote down Germanic mythology and folk stories they did not understand their position in history all they said was it was their ancestors stories the Irish did the same. 

The migration period is probably the bloodiest time in human history. In eastern Europe outside the Roman empire there where constant battle of 10,000's of men slaughtering each other. War never ended in eastern Europe. The Huns in a way where the ones who started the migration period they slaughterd and conquered the Germanic tribes and Kingdoms and destroyed rome when ever they fought. Hun invasions caused Germanic migration which caused Germanic conflict with Rome which caused Germans conquering the western roman empire which lead up to medieval Europe. What really suprises me is the Huns who would have had mainly Y DNA C and R1a1a1b2(not the Slavic branch in eastern Europe today) the Huns conquered everyone they dominted but we find just about 0 hunnic y DNA in Europe where did they go that really suprises me.

Also there is not alot of Germanic y DNA in areas Germans conquered during the migration period. Also areas in eastern Europe they conquered right before the migration period.

By 200-300AD the Goths and Vandals had conquered land from Poland all the way to the black sea and the Danubian. They had almost all the land that bordered the Roman empire's territory in Europe. The Vandals and Goths where conquering and mixing with Slavics with mainly R1a1a1b1 and some I2a1b and I1, Indo Iranian Indo Europeans like Sytheins and Sarmatiens who would have had almost only Y DNA R1a1a1b2 and some I2a1b. They migrated there from central Asia hundreds of years earlier. They also had La Tene Celtic and Thracen elements in their culture. The first Greek references to Goths they called them Sytheins. Probably because Goths where living in the area Sythiens had ruled for hundreds of years and because Goths had a similar lifestyle that was not like Greeks, Romans, and other civilizations.

Around 200-400ad while Goths where conquering Sarmatiens around the Black sea they split into two groups. The Visgoths ruled by the Balthi family and the Ostrogogths ruled by the Amali family. Visgoths became the western Goths and the Ostrogoths became the eastern Goths

The east Germans defintley had alot of none German influence and probably mainly non German blood. They where very influenced by the people they conquered in eastern Europe like Slavs and Indo Iranien ribes Sythiens and Sarmatiens. They also where heavily influenced by Roman civilization also most left traditional german religion 100-400ad most became Christians. Christianity was not just spreading in Germans it was mainly spreading in the middle east, North Africa, Rome and Greece but it also spread alot in mainland Europe and outside the Roman empire.

Since most Germans not just east Germans eventulley became Romanized and Christians that changed them alot. The Germanic religion was very important to earlier Germanic tribes it was how they made many important decisions like to fight in a war or not. The Romans civilization made the Germans more civilized which is why they started to create organized kingdoms and eventualley created the Holy Roman empire which was in their attempt to create a new Rome. More civilized and Christian Germans where the creators of Medieval Europe. 

The Hunnic invasions of Germans and Rome

The Germans dominated non Roman areas of Europe from 1ad-370ad. The Huns from 370-469ad who where a Turkic tribe from volga Russia orignally from eastern Asia Ravaged and conquered the Germanic world except Scandinavia and Denmark. 

here is a map of the areas Huns ruled


They took up just about all none Roman areas of Europe previously ruled by Germanic tribes. Hunnic invasions are the first time in recorded history and Archaeology where Germans where conquered in a major way and showed great fear. The Germans seemed so tough and fearless. Most of the time Rome could not defeat them. Written documents by other people around the Roman empire who saw Germanic merchants or Germanic tribes imprisoned by Rome. Related Germans to ferocious bears who are scared of nothing. Pretty much everyone the Germans meet up with they conquered besides Rome. They where like the scariest barbarians in the known world.

The Huns did not just invade Germans they did the same to everyone who lived from Russia and caucus to Germany. In 420 Huns lead by Rugli made a alliance with the western Roman empire. His brother who seceded him planned to invade the eastern Roman empire but died and the invasion never happened. 

His nephews Attila and Bleda who ruled a dual kingship from 434-445. Huns where divided on who they liked the most but it was seen as one empire. They forced the east Roman empire to sign a treaty giving Huns trade rights and annual tribute form Rome. Also that Rome had to execute anyone the Huns gave them pretty much only people that defied Attila and Bleda. So even the Romans feared the Huns and did not want to risk war. But it is good to note Rome had weakened alot since around the time of Cesar their military power became much much weaker. Julies Caesar would not take this Hun garbage he would have whopped them. Also at this Time Germanic tribes and Kingdoms(they became more civilized by 200-400ad) where conquering much of the western Roman empire so Rome was coming close to the end.

Rome ofenlley did not follow Hunnic demands of the Treaty of Margus and displeased the Huns in other ways. This caused Hunnic invasions of the eastern Roman empire which ended with Rome agreeing on Hunnic terms and a peace treaty. This process occured a few times. In 445ad Bleda died so Atilla became to leader of the entire Hunnic empire. He invaded the eastern Roman empire destroying all armies in his way and he raided towns all the way to Greece. Once again eastern Roman empire made a pease treaty called the third peace of Anatolius. 


Atillia and the Huns had good relationships with the western Roman empire. Attila seems to have been tricked by the western Roman emperors sister that she wanted to marry him. So he saw the western Roman empire as his marriage gift. So he lead a mass invasions of Roman Gaul his army was a mix of Huns, and Germans(Franks, Goths, and Burgundian). Atillas forces destroyed almost all of modern day France. A Roman army which was a mix of Roman and Germanic troops(Franks and Visgoths) meet the Huns army at Orleans. It was a huge victory for the western Roman empire and Germanic tribes migrating west they defeated Attila and he had to retreat outside of the western Roman empire. The next year Attila lead invasions of northern Italy. Destroying everything in his way he was ready to sack Rome. Then the romans found a way to negotate peace with the Huns once agian. Attila went to defend the eastern Huns who where being attacked by the eastern Roman empire. Attila was ready to destroy the eastern Roman empire agian but then when he married a German women on the wedding night he died of nose bleed(The Germans tricked him). Attila was secceded by his son Ellak And that year the same year Atillia died a allied force of Germanic tribes around modern day Serbia defeated Ellak in the battle of Nedao. This battle finally ended the Hunnic dominance of Europe. Now there where only some Hunnic forces left they where all killed off by Germanic tribes lead by Alaric by 469ad the Huns where almost no more in Europe.
The Huns went deep into Germanic folklore even people descended of Germanic tribes in the middle ages remembered legends of the Huns. There are many references of the Huns even over 1,000 years after their invasions. Their leader from 455-453ad Atilla was seen as like the bogi man or the devil in German folk stories. 

Here is a Roman coin of Attila the Hun sole leader of the Huns from 445-453ad.


Attila in Latin means "scourge of God" so he really was feared by everyone he met. He was described as Roman writers as being short, broad chest and large head, his eyes where small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey, and he had a flat nose and tanned skin. So basically he is a perfect example of a east Asian man and these features would have stuck out to Europeans who never saw east Asian people. Not a surprise he looked east Asian Since that is where Turkic languages originated in eastern Asia. No offense to Mongliod people but the east Asian look i think adds more of a cruel and coldness to Attila and the Huns.

Visagoth migrations and Invasions of Rome


The Hunnic invasions caused Germans to retreat west and invade areas of the Roman empire. The Visagoths around Romania where allowed by the eastern Roman empire to take refuge from Huns in Roman land around the Danbe in 376ad. After Rome could not feed them the Visgoths ravaged across Balkans for 6 years destroying everything in their way. They had a new king named Alaric who the Visagoths loved After having conflicts with German generals in the roman army. And in 408ad Romans killing the families of 30,000 non roman military members(mainly Germans). Alaric lead a hug invasion of northern Italy from 408ad-410ad sacking Rome in 410ad. This was the first time Rome was sacked since 387bc about 800 years earlier by Gauls lead by Breenus. By this time the Gauls and Celts had been out of the picture for hundreds of years. It was the Germans- Romans then later the Huns. 

The Visgoths then went further south into Italy and attempted to take ships into Africa but where stopped by a storm and Alaric died around that time. Then they left Italy and made invasions of southern Gaul and conquered Iberia by about 418ad. The Visigoths and other Germans they where allied with Valans, Alans, Suevi, and Honoris setup a kingdoms controlled all of Iberia(Spain and Portugal) and southern Gaul(southern France). The Germans like the Huns where able to pretty much bully Rome who was once had the most unstoppble military in the world. The Visagoth Iberian kingdom was conquered by Moorish Muslims in 711ad.

Besides the fact that Germans ruled Iberia and southern France for over 200 years there is almost no Germanic Y DNA found inmodern Ibeeria and southern France. So the Visagoths where probably just the leaders they did not really inter marry. By 200-400ad most Germans became Christain and became influnced by the Roman civlization. So they had become alot more civlized that is why they where able to make a whole kingdom in Iberia and France not just 50 ribes raiding cities.
Map of Visgoth migrations

Map of the fullest extent of Visagoth kingdoms of Iberia and southern France

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## Nobody1



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## Fire Haired

> 


what are u trying to say. I know this is long in orgnized and hard to understand. I tried to make something all about Germanic tribes and their history it was hard to orgnize all of it. I am going to edit.

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## Nobody1

Great Job!

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## Fire Haired

thanks i like those pictures u use

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## Nobody1

> thanks i like those pictures u use


i love them;

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## Fire Haired

do u find them on googe images

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## Nobody1

no google search; i just search - i scout;
some you can even create yourself with a certain program on a site; 
if i find the site again i will give you the address; ASAP

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## Nobody1

Maybe you can use this by whatever you are trying to do;


Germanic origin legacy - _as rec. by Tacitus_



*Strabo* - Book VII
_Now the parts beyond the Rhenus, immediately after the country of the Celti, slope towards the east and are occupied by the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for in build, habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said the Celti are. And I also think that it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name "Germani," as though they wished to indicate thereby that they were "genuine" Galatae, for in the language of the Romans "germani" means "genuine."

_



There is tons of other refs. and wirtings about Germanic _peoples_ - from classical history [Greeks / Romans] let me know if you need any;

In your next edit you should def. mention (highlight) the shift/merger between the Germanic tribes of the Augustus-Tiberius era and those of the _Hunnensturm_;

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## Fire Haired

Please tell me more about those ancient writers i have seen some writting about Germanic tribes.

from what i have seen the major times in Germanic history are

1. settlment in northern Germany and southern Scandnavia 4,000-3,500ybp

2. _Iron age migrations_ starting around 700bc. Germanic tribes started to migrate into Celtic territory. Also they made settlments in eastern Europe around Poland which is where the Goths and Vandals come from. They first meet up with Romans in 200-100bc and they have a huge war agianst romans where the Germans out do Rome but they where not able to sack rome but they also hd to worry about fighting Celts.

3. _German dominance in non Roman Europe, Hunnic invasions, conversion to Christainty_. The east germanic tribes Vandals and Goths conquered just about all non Roman areas in eastern Europe from mainly 100-300ad. It was ruled before that by Slavic tribes and Indo Iranian tribes(Sycthiens and Sarmatiens). Then the start of the migration period in 370ad. The Huns who where a Turkic tribe from volga Russia but originally from central or eastern Asia invade and conquer almost they entire Germanic world. Also the Roman empire was becoming weak and the Huns beat up on Rome but Rome always found a way to make peace. 

In the whole Mediterranean world from 33ad-300ad Christianity was spreading like crazy. It also was able to Spread in in non Roman Europe with Germanic tribes not all the Germans but a ton became Christain in that time frame and after the 400'sAD. The Germans where becoming more civilized and connected to the civilized Roman world. German society was changed by civilization and Christianity. the Visgoths and Ostrogoths to migrate to the western Roman empire. Conquer Italy, Dalmatia(most of Yugoslavia), Then Iberia and southern France in the 400's-500'sAD. Franks migrate out of Belgium and Netherlands and conquer Roman Gaul and some Visagoth kingdoms.

Angles, Saxons, and Juts from northern Germany and Denmark invade and conquer Roman Britain from 400-600ad but the Romans left that is why it was so easy. The Germanic tribes became civilized kingdoms and idealized being like Rome they ruled all of western Europe in the early middle ages. They pretty much created medieval Europe that idea we have of knights, dragons, castles all comes from those Germanic kingdoms. Also i dont know that much passed that i know the Franks saved Europe from Muslim invasions. There was the holy Roman empire i think that is connected with franks and saving Christians in Europe from Muslims. I don't know that much about the Lombardy kingdoms in Italy or what group of Germans they come from. I kknow that France formed out of western Francia which was split after i think the Frankish kingdom ended. But modern French people are not German at all by blood and they kept the language the Romanized Gauls spoke. 

i dont know that much about the Vikings i know they where the last Germans to become Christian they where Scandinavian mainly from Denmark so they would have had more I1a2 than R1b S21. They kept alot of Germanic traditions they still lived in a tribal society unlike Franks. They sacked cites all over Europe and usuelly beat the Germanic kingdoms in wars. They also gave Russia its name but i am not sure abou that they had some contact with Muslims, Because they raided parts of Muslims spain and the Vikings in Russia traded with Muslims.

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## Fire Haired

i dont know if this is connected with Vikings but there is a Russian i have known my whole life. Part of his family is from the area the Rus Vikings raided. He told me this and he did not say anything about Vikings but that Russian folk stories talk about really big warriors who raided cites and bullied people it reminded me of the Vikings. That is exactly the type of stuff they did i will have to hear more to see if i am getting it completely accurate i asked his parents about it once and if it had anything to do with Vikings they said yes that story is about Vikings. That would be really cool if Russians still did not forget the Vikings.

according to Ibn Falden a Muslim who wrote about the Vikings in Russia. Basically he was describing a group of Vikings named the Rus that i think where a group of warriors because they all had knifes, swords, axes, and Armour. He said they bullied the Slavs(Russians) they literally owned the area. I would not be surprised if their the people that folk story is about. The Slavic Russians really stood no chance the Vikings where trained for war their whole life and this group of Vikings where all warriors pretty much. They where able to beat the best armies in Europe. The vikings where maybe the greatest individual warrior 1,000ybp. The Byzantines thought they where from those Germanic tribes that more ancient Romans talked about.

here is a link to Ibn Falden's writtings about the Rus Vikings http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm

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## tjlowery87

Ok Fire Hair If U Do Not Believe Macimo Map, Then How Much germanic Y DnaDo U Believe Is In England?..........SryAbout All The Capitol Letters My Phone Is Messing up.

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## Fire Haired

> Ok Fire Hair If U Do Not Believe Macimo Map, Then How Much germanic Y DnaDo U Believe Is In England?..........SryAbout All The Capitol Letters My Phone Is Messing up.


I think most Y DNA in England is Germanic comes from the Grmanic tribes who invaded Engalnd from 410-600ad. Angeals, Saxons, Jutes, and maybe Franks or other tribes. Since R1b S21 is about 30-40% in England and lowlands of Scotland(which are the areas where Those German tribes conquered and where English and Scottish formed(not Gealic Scottish).

There is about 5% I1 in Ireland but the same areas of England and scotland hwere R1b S21 is 30-40% have 15%!!!! so England and lowlands of Sctoland have as much I1 and R1b 21 as northern Germany and Denmark. Angeals, Saxons, and Franks came from northern Germany and Jutes came from Denmark. So England and lowlands of Scotland are tied for highest amount of Germanic Y DNA.



Also the I1 in highlands of Scotland that is 15% can easily be explained by Viking invasions same with the R1a in that area of Scotland. So the Y DNA in the British isles is extremely easy to explain it is probably the easiest in all of Europe. Insular Celtic R1b L21is still 50-60% in lowlands of Scotland and 40-50% in northern England. In Ireland it is 90-98% minus Viking I1 it was probably originally close to 100% Wals has 80-90% and Britanny has 80-90% some is not R1b L21 but they are all over 60% at least. All of Britain would have had those percentages before Germanic invasions. The more south u go in Enland the lass R1b L21 London area has the least



i gave my reasons why not all I1 is Germanic one very good example is Finnish who have 30-40% I1 and speak a urlaic language and have spoken it for 8,000 years. I1 is very old probably over 20,000 years old also not all I2a2 is Germanic. R1a Z284 came from proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture 5,000-4,000ybp pretty much all in non Scandinavia Europe was spread by Germans.

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## redeyednewt

> i dont know if this is connected with Vikings but there is a Russian i have known my whole life. Part of his family is from the area the Rus Vikings raided. He told me this and he did not say anything about Vikings but that Russian folk stories talk about really big warriors who raided cites and bullied people it reminded me of the Vikings. That is exactly the type of stuff they did i will have to hear more to see if i am getting it completely accurate i asked his parents about it once and if it had anything to do with Vikings they said yes that story is about Vikings. That would be really cool if Russians still did not forget the Vikings.
> 
> according to Ibn Falden a Muslim who wrote about the Vikings in Russia. Basically he was describing a group of Vikings named the Rus that i think where a group of warriors because they all had knifes, swords, axes, and Armour. He said they bullied the Slavs(Russians) they literally owned the area. I would not be surprised if their the people that folk story is about. The Slavic Russians really stood no chance the Vikings where trained for war their whole life and this group of Vikings where all warriors pretty much. They where able to beat the best armies in Europe. The vikings where maybe the greatest individual warrior 1,000ybp. The Byzantines thought they where from those Germanic tribes that more ancient Romans talked about.
> 
> here is a link to Ibn Falden's writtings about the Rus Vikings http://www.uib.no/jais/v003ht/03-001-025Montgom1.htm


Russians-even those from the area you mentioned, are not German, Scandinavian, or Nordic. They are Slavic, and many are also Asian.

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