# General Discussion > Opinions >  On the future of Europe and European Boarders

## Diomedes

Upon reading the news regarding the referendum of independence in Catalonia--which, as it seems, will not be acknowledged by Spain,--I was wondering if there will be other parts of Europe that might ask for something similar. Our society nowadays in not that oppressive as it used to be and, frankly speaking, not all boarders are drawn as they should have been. Ergo, I was wondering whether European boarders will be the same in the future.

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## Balkanite

There are the sami in norway and sweden. kurds in turkey, other iberians in spain, albanians in greece, albanians in fyrom, albanians in preshevo valley, albanians in montenegro.
Eventually al these areas will come home to where they belong :)

I saw that The court in Hague just accepted the Cham Issue of northern greece as an actual issue last year. They are going to look closer at the issue in Holland now. So within a year or two we will see northern greece become albanian again. Or at least some compensation in the form of lands and money are going to be made to those albanian families and communities expelled by greeks 70 years ago :)
There is not much info on it yet, because i think they want to keep it on the down low. But i can give you a link if you want to know more:)

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## Balkanite

But interesting about the catalans. Have there been an actual referendum or are they still just talking? :)

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## Diomedes

^ So you are an Albanian then. I thought you were Irish in the first place.

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## Balkanite

It is actually great if Catalonia becomes independent. Because then Spain won't have a reason not to recognize Kosovo and Scotland's independence anymore :)

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## Balkanite

> ^ So you are an Albanian then. I thought you were Irish in the first place.


I live in Ireland. Im half Irish half Arvanite from Igoumenitsa.
So probably just as greek as you :)

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## Balkanite

But i don't want to call myself a greek suddently, just because the ancient greeks are suddently glorified the last 300 years :)
300 years ago no one called themselves greeks, there were some who called themselves romi(modern greek speakers) and then there were arvanites(albanian speakers). But when ancient hellens suddently started to get academic attention, all the romis and most arvanites started to call themselves hellens, even though they hadn't called themselves that for almost 2000 years. Many words which were slavic and turkic got replaced by the words they saw in the ancient texts and inscriptions.
I admit i am arvanite. There is nothing wrong with being realistic :)

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## Balkanite

But it is a bit off topic to discuss our whereabouts and origin here. Lets stick to the catalan thing :)

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## Diomedes

Well, the Greeks are one of the most important (if not the most important) civilizations that ever existed on the face of this earth. It is sad that the lights of Greece did not continue linearly in the space-time continuum. Alas, it was not meant to be.

Every person that goes to school, more than once will see the glorious name of Greece. A small country that achieved so much. This is Greece. A beacon of light for the centuries that were, are, and for those to come.

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## Balkanite

hehe you are acting as if someone attacked greeks. Calm down bro. I work with greek and roman archeology all the time. 
But you should try reading "Anthropology through the looking-glass: Critical Ethnography in the margins of europe" by Michael Herzfeld.
It will reschool you completely. He is a pro-hellene so don't worry, but he will make you see how the situation really is.

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## Diomedes

That might be a good read actually. Thanks

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## Balkanite

http://assets.cambridge.org/97805213...21340038ws.pdf
It is from cambridge, so it think its only a preview or something. 
Just an appetizer. It is a good read, everyone should read it some time.

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## Angela

Well, the route that Italy has taken with a lot of these situations is just give local minority groups a lot of autonomy and respect for their language. No need for violent conflict.

Look at the Arbereshe: these Albanian migrants have been treated better in Italy than in the Balkans. Nobody cares if they speak Arbereshe or worship in a slightly different way. 

Actually, I wish some of the German speaking groups in far northern Italy would just secede already. They get way too much money. They won't, though; they get too many benefits in their situation. To think of all the lives lost to get those trifling pieces of land. I personally think it was all an abysmal waste of human life.

If we were going to fight for something, and I don't at all think we should have, we should have fought for Nizza.

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## Bergin

> Look at the Arbereshe: these Albanian migrants have been treated better in Italy than in the Balkans. Nobody cares if they speak Arbereshe or worship in a slightly different way.


At the time of the Arbereshe it was more of a power game in the balkans, but it was 'in the house' with local landlord fights. 

With the arrival of the turks things changed: towards the end, albanians were pretty much the deep in the games of the turks (just consider Egypt's independence) and also made a lot of abuses of power/culture - truth to be said. I think the neighbors are not willing to forgive easily these facts and we don't have much now to buy ourselves out. 

But I still believe it is just an anomaly that will pass within this century.

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## LATGAL

> But I still believe it is just an anomaly that will pass within this century.


For sure. Of course, for example, you'll always find delusional diasporites who will dream of reclaiming 'lost territory'.

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## Balkanite

> For sure. Of course, for example, you'll always find delusional diasporites who will dream of reclaiming 'lost territory'.


Yes, but the delusional word you are using is relative. It depends on from who's point of view you are seeing the issue.
Also, in the end it doesn't matter if you think they are delusional or not. Because judging by the fact that the court in Hague accepted the Cham issue of northern greece as an actual Issue, just tells us that he west europeans are actually just as "delusional" as you say these albanian diasporites are ;)




> Well, the route that Italy has taken with a lot of these situations is just give local minority groups a lot of autonomy and respect for their language. No need for violent conflict.
> 
> Look at the Arbereshe: these Albanian migrants have been treated better in Italy than in the Balkans. Nobody cares if they speak Arbereshe or worship in a slightly different way. 
> 
> Actually, I wish some of the German speaking groups in far northern Italy would just secede already. They get way too much money. They won't, though; they get too many benefits in their situation. To think of all the lives lost to get those trifling pieces of land. I personally think it was all an abysmal waste of human life.
> 
> If we were going to fight for something, and I don't at all think we should have, we should have fought for Nizza.


Yea i have always admired how Italy can keep the situation so cool between all those etnicities. But the bond between Albanians/arbereshe and Southern Italians has always been strong. 
At one point i read that southern Italy was being invaded, and that King Alphonso of Naples asked Scanderbeg(who was busy fighting turks and serbs) if he could send his men to Italy and fight of a siege. Scanderbeg actually left all his battles, gathered his men, sailed to Italy, broke of the siege, and went back to kick the turks and serbs butts :)
And when Scanderbeg got old and was no longer able to resist the turks, his family and a lot of other albanians were allowed to settle in the Kingdoms of Naples, as a kind of a thanks for good allyship and for breaking the siege :)
I also think that is why Italians and arbereshe have never fought each other, because none of them are invaders, they agree that both have the right to be there :)
Unfortunately it is not all countries that remember history like Italy does. As all the arvanites of greece actually moved there due to invitations, so they could protect the areas and castles of the plague-and-war-ridden greece of that time. But of course, when there is no need for warriors anymore, then the albanians are just treated like garbage..
That is what i like about Italy: Even though you don't need the arbereshe for war anymore, you still keep them without complaining :) And you still treat them with respect

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## Balkanite

I guess what i am about to write is not off topic, as it actually touches the subject of future borders, but if people just comment it without actually watching the video, it can quickly turn into a whole city of off topic posts here.
But anyway, i trust that people in here have the attention-skills and patience to watch a 1 hour video without problems. And if you don't have those skills, don't comment then :)

I will explain quickly:
The video is a lecture in history, lectured by Maria Eftimiu.
Maria Eftimiu is a greek professor at The University of Athens. She is not a nobody, and she has actually won awards for being the best professor in Athens.
She is very realistic, and she forgets no one. I will write some of the points of the videos.

- She describes which greek cities and areas are actually albanian, and that most of the generals during the Greek war of Independence were actually albanian too, and they almost didn't know how to speak greek at the time.

- She also points out how Kosovo and Macedonia is going to reunite with Albania soon.

- She also mentions how there is a legal issue ongoing about the atrocitites commited against albanians in Greece 70 years ago.

- She also mentions how 40% percent of Greece were in fact Albanians 200 years ago, but most have been assimilated by now.

- She lists all greek surnames which have an albanian origin(so DIOMEDES and LATGAL, check if your surnames are listed ;) my surname was listed )

- She points out how greece was almost empty due to wars and plague, so byzantines and venetians invited albanians to protect the greek citites.

All in all, most of the thing you hear these albanians say here on the forum, will be said, just with authority!
So LATGAL and DIOMEDES, if you do not believe you own "best professor" of your great ATHENS, then who do you believe my friends? :)

I bet you don't even have the nerve to watch the lecture until the end, you are afraid your reality will crumble like a dry cracker. That is the world we live in, greeks afraid of watching greek lectures. The reality that you believe in, is supported by no one. Not even your fellow greek professors support your lies :-* :Heart: 
Now watch the video and learn!! Dont yip yap!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVI6zw4jW3Y

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## Balkanite

..something

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## LATGAL

> Various stuff


Personally, I'm already aware of this video (and I didn't learn anything new that was far more accurately and adequately stated in other sources; it's particularly funny how her already wrong 40% becomes "40-60%" in your restatement though). In fact, an Albanian poster referred to it in another thread along with a few other things but our discussion was (fairly) removed since it was off-topic and I'm not interested in having the same conversation all over again, especially since I will no doubt have it again with another Albanian of certain ideological persuasion at some other point in the future. It gets boring too after a while.

But you should keep your territorial delusions close to your heart, either way. Perhaps "Northern Epirus" will join Greece too in your alternate universe.

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## Balkanite

> Personally, I'm already aware of this video (and I didn't learn anything new that was far more accurately and adequately stated in other sources; it's particularly funny how her already wrong 40% becomes "40-60%" in your restatement though). In fact, an Albanian poster referred to it in another thread along with a few other things but our discussion was (fairly) removed since it was off-topic and I'm not interested in having the same conversation all over again, especially since I will no doubt have it again with another Albanian at some other point in the future.
> 
> But you should keep your territorial delusions close to your heart, either way. Perhaps "Northern Epirus" will join Greece too in your alternate universe.


Yes, i wrote 40-60% because i hadn't watched the video myself for a while. I just remembered that the proportions of Romi and Arvanite was 40/60. 
But now that you correct me, i will edit my first post. But anyway, the 40% kinda still underlines my point :)
And these are not territorial delusions. I am a very objective, and i am just trying to point out that folks like you are very wrong, and that you are not even backed up by your own academics :)
I like greeks. No. I actually love greeks, or else i wouldn't take a 6 year long faculty where we read about nothing but the ancients greeks and romans. 
I probably write and read ancient greek better than you :)
But nevertheless, i do not wan't any small unschooled village boy to come here and ruin how i see greeks. I actually don't care that you don't want to learn. 
For me it is enough that your most acknowledged historian say the same things as me, and not the same things as you :)
To me, that is an indication that the modern greek lies are dying out, and that eventually Greece will recognize the Cham issue, and that someday greeks and albanians can be brothers again.
But there are a specific kind of greek individuals, and some albanians, who are just throwing fuel on the fire, instead of using that fuel constructively.
The most important thing though, is that scholars like myself and Maria Eftimiu are constructing reality in the form of books and lecture. While people like you are just trying to promote hatred through diverse forums. 
Trust me, the scholars will win soon, because we have the Ethos that you lack :)

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## LATGAL

This whole post of yours is one big rambling delusion, my man. It's just more confirmation that not engaging your points was a good choice. Yes, you're very objective, an anti-nationalist who only ends up caring about the nationalism and the narratives of his neighbors etc. It's nothing new in the Balkans.

Look in the mirror if you want to talk about 'fueling fires' btw.

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## Angela

I'm not quite sure I'm following the logic here. Is this just code for proposing a change of borders in accordance with hotly contested versions of medieval history? 

Honestly, from an outsider, I think your time would be better spent figuring out how to increase prosperity and quality of life for people no matter where they are.

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## Balkanite

> This whole post of yours is one big rambling delusion, my man. It's just more confirmation that not engaging your points was a good choice. Yes, you're very objective, an anti-nationalist who only ends up caring about the nationalism and the narratives of his neighbors etc. It's nothing new in the Balkans.
> 
> Look in the mirror if you want to talk about 'fueling fires' btw.


Yes, lets say that, rambling delusion :)
Who should i trust, you an anonymous nationalist, or Maria Eftimiu, a greek history professor who won one of the most prestigious academic award in Greece?
She won the award for excellence in Academic teaching in 2013, that is 2 years after she made the above video lecture, my friend.
So in other words, her view of reality got her an award. What has your view given you? Is there anyone who matters who is backing up your nationalistic motives in Greece right now?

I thought so.

Here is a description of the award.
"*Award for Excellence in Academic Teaching is given every year by the Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) starting in 1991. Vassilis Xanthopoulos and Stephanos Pnevmatikos, Professors at the University of Crete and members of FORTH, were murdered in the evening of November 27, 1990, at Heraklion while teaching an advanced seminar"

*Now let's stop this and get back on track. Become a politician if you wan't to force your outdated opinions upon other people.

This started with someone asking if there were any possibilities for future border changes within Europe.
And i kindly replied to him that there were several places where the possibilities are there. And one of those places happened to be northern greece and the cham issue. And i was only pointing out that it will be looked at in Hague during the next couple of years. 
So i was not taking sides, i was not suggesting anything, i was just pointing out a legit issue which can have an impact on borders(or at least relation between countries) sometime in the next 5-50 years.
The reason that i showed this video was to show that it is not something i am making up. Even award winning GREEK academics are saying the same thing as me.
I can also find the official website of the court of Hague and show you the unrestricted parts of the official documents if that is what you want.
And if you don't like the facts, that an legal issue will be raised soon, then keep your eyes closed. But reality won't change anyway, you will still watch it happen on TV within your lifetime.

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## Yetos

this a reward given to Physics and Mathematics,

'Here is a description of the award.
"*Award for Excellence in Academic Teaching is given every year by the Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) starting in 1991. Vassilis Xanthopoulos and Stephanos Pnevmatikos, Professors at the University of Crete and members of FORTH, were murdered in the evening of November 27, 1990, at Heraklion while teaching an advanced seminar"'

*Ξανθοπουλος and rest were murdered and shot by an after diploma student,
the murderer was found hanged on a tree,

now in Greece also Ρεπουση took big awards, 
but where is she now?
also Φιλλης.

besides many rewards are given in Greece,
and this reward you mention must have to do with Mathematics and Physics.
or new methods of teaching, not with the scientific work, someone provide

and the international reward is only for Gravity and relativity if remember correct.
a friend of mine and also fellow student at high school (Λυκειον) pass from his hands
and now she is abroad at USA at a reasearch center

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilis_C._Xanthopoulos

*anyway honored by that reward does mean honor to her work, neither to the this video
*
Ρεπουση also has honors, but that does mean her views are accepted.

Φιλης also has his


*WHAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS THE BELLOW.
*
Karl Max was a good οικονομολογος (economics) but this does not mean he is correct
Albert Einstein is considered genius, yet his stance against quantum (God does plays with cubes) can easily clasiffy him as idiot
the Chicago economic school, etc etc have theories, but does not mean are correct.

*to end 
FALLAMEYER ALSO IS CONSIDERED UNIGUE.
BUT GENETICS SHOW DIFFERENT THAN HIS CLAIMS

*so IN GREECE, WE HAVE DEMOCRACY, AND EVERYONE CAN SAY WHAT EVER HE LIKES.

*All the census of Greek state show clearly the numbers and population and areas of Arvanites.*
*BESIDES IN GREECE IT IS NOT A SHAME TO BE AN ARVANITIS.
but rather a cleronomical honor* 
as it is in your country to say I am Greek Epirotis (do not tell me Ireland)

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## Balkanite

They give several kinds of awards i think. But the one that Maria got is for excellence in academic teaching. In other words, she is such a good teacher, that she got an award for her teaching.

She teaches history, not mathematics or physics.

The award is just named after Vassilis Xanthopoulos and Stephanos Pnevmatikos, because they were murdered while lecturing in 1991. And they were physicians and mathematicians. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Maria Eftimiou won an award for academic teaching(within her field, history, of course)

Now just because Alfred Nobel was a chemist doesn't mean that they don't give Nobel prices in literature or other disciplines than chemistry  :Heart:

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## Diomedes

Chams would have been alright and still live in that area should they have not assisted the Nazi Germans--I do not mean all of the Cham population. That was the main reason Napoleon Zervas and his squad did what they did.

By and large, Albanians are seen badly by the rest of the Balkans because they became Muslims and assisted the Turks. The truth hurts unfortunately and it is sad that many Albanians turned to become Mohammedans when Skanderbeg faught with such passion the Turks and kept Kruja and the vicinity Ottoman free for a quarter of a century. 




> Yes, i wrote 40-60% because i hadn't watched the video myself for a while. I just remembered that the proportions of Romi and Arvanite was 40/60. 
> But now that you correct me, i will edit my first post. But anyway, the 40% kinda still underlines my point :)
> And these are not territorial delusions. I am a very objective, and i am just trying to point out that folks like you are very wrong, and that you are not even backed up by your own academics :)
> I like greeks. No. I actually love greeks, or else i wouldn't take a 6 year long faculty where we read about nothing but the ancients greeks and romans. 
> I probably write and read ancient greek better than you :)
> But nevertheless, i do not wan't any small unschooled village boy to come here and ruin how i see greeks. I actually don't care that you don't want to learn. 
> For me it is enough that your most acknowledged historian say the same things as me, and not the same things as you :)
> To me, that is an indication that the modern greek lies are dying out, and that eventually Greece will recognize the Cham issue, and that someday greeks and albanians can be brothers again.
> But there are a specific kind of greek individuals, and some albanians, who are just throwing fuel on the fire, instead of using that fuel constructively.
> ...

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## Yetos

> They give several kinds of awards i think. But the one that Maria got is for excellence in academic teaching. In other words, she is such a good teacher, that she got an award for her teaching.
> 
> She teaches history, not mathematics or physics.



then she took the reward for importing new methods of teaching.
the excellence in this reward has to do with new methods.

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## Diomedes

There was a period that called for the "Megali Idea" in Greece during Venizelos' period. Greece through wars became larger and larger incorporating most of the Greeks outside motherland. The last stage of "Megali Idea" was played in Asia Minor, in the so called _Asia Minor Expedition_, where we lost the war to the Neo-Turks (Kemalists). Ten years of continuous march of the Greek army, from the Balkan wars till now, stopped at Sangarios (Sakarya) river. This catastrophe eradicated the 3,000 years of continuous Greek inhabitance in Asia Minor. A population exchange followed afterwards and high ranked generals and politicians were hanged. 

We Greeks, at least most of us, are risen to remember what was ours time and again. Naturally, this leads us to specific traits and behaviors. Make no mistake about that.




> I'm not quite sure I'm following the logic here. Is this just code for proposing a change of borders in accordance with hotly contested versions of medieval history? 
> 
> Honestly, from an outsider, I think your time would be better spent figuring out how to increase prosperity and quality of life for people no matter where they are.

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## Yetos

> They give several kinds of awards i think. But the one that Maria got is for excellence in academic teaching. In other words, she is such a good teacher, that she got an award for her teaching.
> 
> She teaches history, not mathematics or physics.
> 
> The award is just named after Vassilis Xanthopoulos and Stephanos Pnevmatikos, because they were murdered while lecturing in 1991. And they were physicians and mathematicians. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Maria Eftimiou won an award for academic teaching(within her field, history, of course)
> 
> Now just because Alfred Nobel was a chemist doesn't mean that they don't give Nobel prices in literature or other disciplines than chemistry



Xanthopoulos had a big program that cost a lot to Greek citizens,
that all his lessons were via Computer, it was considered a new method

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## Balkanite

Okay you actually just made my day Diomedes and Yetos. 
Your complete lack of ability to learn, understand and bring about legit arguments amaze me. 
It just confirms to me that i don't even have to spend my time teaching you, because no one will ever listen to you in real life anyways. 
Not even your own educational system. Your educational system i actually teaches it's students the exact opposite of what you believe in.
Take your conspiracy theories to the youtube comments section instead.
I am out of this thread. Write all the non-sense you want to now.

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## Yetos

> But i don't want to call myself a greek suddently, just because the ancient greeks are suddently glorified the last 300 years :)
> 300 years ago no one called themselves greeks, there were some who called themselves romi(modern greek speakers) and then there were arvanites(albanian speakers). But when ancient hellens suddently started to get academic attention, all the romis and most arvanites started to call themselves hellens, even though they hadn't called themselves that for almost 2000 years. Many words which were slavic and turkic got replaced by the words they saw in the ancient texts and inscriptions.
> I admit i am arvanite. There is nothing wrong with being realistic :)



Νo Man you are an Arvanitis,
*you are a Χαλδουπις and Ντουντουμις

cause even in the time you mention he was Γραικος Greek
*

και κανεις Χαλδουπις δεν τον λυπηθηκε, να του φυτεψει μια σφαιρα.

*αυτος ηταν ο αρχηγος Xαλδουπις
*

θα σε ευχαριστουσε πολυ να μας εκανες οτι εκανε και αυτος, σωστα?
δλδ οτι εκανε ο Αλβανος και ο στρατος των Αλβανων σε Ελληνες και Αρβανιτες.
μνημη χρυσοψαρου.

Good night Dudumi.


WHAT AMAZES ME,
Eythymioy and Demopoulos and Kollias etc etc say they were numerous,
IN FACT I WILL USE YOUR WORDS.


IF EYTHYMIOY IS CORRECT



> - *She also mentions how 40% percent of Greece were in fact Albanians 200 years ago, but most have been assimilated by now.*
> 
> - She lists all greek surnames which have an albanian origin(so DIOMEDES and LATGAL, check if your surnames are listed ;) my surname was listed )
> 
> - *She points out how greece was almost empty due to wars and plague, so byzantines and venetians invited albanians to protect the greek citites.*


.

THEN WHY AT ΤΡΟΙΖΗΝΑ and rest Εθνοσυνελευσεις we do not see this.
REMEMBER TROIZENA WAS EVEN BEFORE GREEK STATE, AND ARVANITES WERE THERE. 
SO IF AS CLAIM WERE 40% what happened there?

Simply memory of goldfish and a lie, 
*I do not need more,
Just when Troizena gathering happened. 
and what happened there if Albanians were 40% of state.*


YOU ARE NOT AN ARBANITIS, YOU ARE AN ALBANIAN PLAYING THAT HE IS ARBANITIS

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## Diomedes

Please, mention the parts you do not agree. Then we will look at historical facts and try to understand whether the statements I made are wrong. 




> Your complete lack of ability to learn, understand and bring about legit arguments amaze me.

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## LATGAL

> Various stuff


As I said, I'm not interested in retreading this particular ground extensively. Euthymiou was wrong about her 40%, nonetheless, which was basically an off-hand comment in a casual video of all things that dealt with a much broader topic (in relation to that, she also mentions a specific Ottoman census which covered only the Northeast Peloponnese which was heavily settled by Albanians and so wouldn't be representative of the general area even in Medieval times, this has been covered in the past). This is clear if you look at the actual _non-Greek_ estimates from the first Greek kingdom that speak of a max ~20% of Albanian speakers. That's all I'll say on that matter since it's gotten boring.

As for your reply to the OP, sure, I agree but I'm allowed to evaluate your comments like "Eventually al these areas will come home to where they belong" as well in turn. Nothing wrong with that.


Either way, what Yetos and Diomedes are posting now are equivalent comments to yours, just from the national Greek perspective. Enjoy I guess.  :Good Job:

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## Yetos

@ Latgal

the census of Greek state had always mention about non Greek speakers,
Arbanites were about 50 000 to 150 000 at first Greek state.
and even till 1990's
not even 10 %, and they were gathered in certain areas.

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## Balkanite

> Things


Oh, i completely forgot about you.
Let me do it short for you too, and ill be out. 
1. My comments were nothing like Diomedes and Yetos. I was just reciting a greek acknowledged scholar. Or maybe Maria Eftimiu(a greek) is also an albanian nationalist according to you? :Laughing: 
2. She isn't only talking about Peloponessos. But Almost the whole of Greece, including Euboia, Boetia, Cycladic Island, Attica, Epirus and several others. you obviously didn't watch the video for more than 10 minutes.
3. I told you not to comment if you didn't have the abilities to watch it to the end. My first comment was directed only at people with enough capacity to watch an 1 hour lecture.
4. I am out my friends. Enjoy your delusions you three guys ;)

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## LATGAL

> @ Latgal
> 
> the census of Greek state had always mention about non Greek speakers,
> Arbanites were about 50 000 to 150 000 at first Greek state.
> and even till 1990's
> not even 10 %, and they were gathered in certain areas.


There were various estimates. Biris collects them all in his book with some critical discussion. A max of 20% is noted though various estimates are given, as you wrote.




> Oh, i completely forgot about you.
> Let me do it short for you too, and ill be out. 
> 1. My comments were nothing like Diomedes and Yetos. I was just reciting a greek acknowledged scholar.
> 2. She isn't only talking about Peloponessos. But Almost the whole of Greece, including Euboia, Boetia, Cycladic Island, Attica, Epirus and several others. you obviously didn't watch the video for more than 10 minutes.
> 3. I told you not to comment if you didn't have the abilities to watch it to the end. My first comment was directed only at people with enough capacity to watch an 1 hour lecture.
> 4. I am out my friends. Enjoy your delusions you three guys ;)


You misunderstood what I wrote. Her overall reference was specifically to the first Greek kingdom. It includes the areas you mentioned except Epirus. My comment in parentheses about the Peloponnese was about her immediate reference _after_, to the Ottoman census in specifically Corinthia (in the northeast Peloponnese).

As for your comments, I won't take your own word for what exactly they represent. We can just agree to disagree on that.

This same discussion every other week...

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## Diomedes

If you have good arguments, why leave?

P.S. LATGAL must be a broette.




> I am out my friends. Enjoy your delusions you three guys ;)

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## Balkanite

> If you have good arguments, why leave?


Because if your own scholars won't even listen to your theories, why should i then?
If you were able to learn, i think you would have learned by now. 
I don't get paid to convince you of anything.
Therefore, as many good arguments as i may have, you do not deserve them.

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## Diomedes

A scholar who does not want to disseminate his knowledge, no true scholar he is.

P.S. What do you mean when you say "won't even listen to your theories". Which theories are you talking about?




> Because if your own scholars won't even listen to your theories, why should i then?
> If you were able to learn, i think you would have learned by now. 
> I don't get paid to convince you of anything.
> Therefore, as many good arguments as i may have, you do not deserve them.

----------


## Balkanite

> A scholar who does not want to disseminate his knowledge, no true scholar he is.


Hehe, never heard such an absurd sentence. Of course scholars choose wisely who they teach. Why bother disseminating anything before a crowd where the disseminated material will not be understood anyway. 
Watch the video if you want to hear approximately what i believe in.

----------


## Diomedes

I have seen that video long ago. I do not claim that arvanites were not in Greece. The point is that you act as an agent provocateur in this whole conversation since the very beginning. Shame ...

Do not worry, we Greeks also have a certain mental capacity to understand things. Why keep this knowledge secret? If not myself, some others might appreciate your knowledge.




> Hehe, never heard such an absurd sentence. Of course scholars choose wisely who they teach. Why bother disseminating anything before a crowd where the disseminated material will not understood anyway. 
> Watch the video if you want to hear approximately what i believe in.

----------


## Balkanite

> I have seen that video long ago. I do not claim that arvanites were not in Greece. The point is that you act as an agent provocateur in this whole conversation since the very beginning. Shame ...
> 
> Do not worry, we Greeks also have a certain mental capacity to understand things. Why keep this knowledge secret? If not myself, some others might appreciate your knowledge.


Yes if people wan't to learn more, they can watch the video i linked. That is why i linked it to start with. Do you want me to come and massage your neck and give you comments on the things she says? I am no servant. I linked the video to be nice so you could watch it yourselves, and i just listed some of the points of the video so people had a chance to know if it was something they would be interested in seeing or not. So if you don't want to watch the video, don't watch it. But don't expect me to elaborate everything she says within that whole hour of lecture. Watch it yourself again if you really don't remember what she says. And you must not remember, since you ask me to repeat her arguments to you..

----------


## Balkanite

> I have seen that video long ago. I do not claim that arvanites were not in Greece. The point is that you act as an agent provocateur in this whole conversation since the very beginning. Shame ...
> 
> Do not worry, we Greeks also have a certain mental capacity to understand things. Why keep this knowledge secret? If not myself, some others might appreciate your knowledge.


And why you, as a greek yourself, see a link to a lecture of The University of Athens as a provocation. That i simply can't grasp

----------


## Diomedes

Listen man, you got pissed of when I said that some Chams assisted Nazis and that Albanians (of the Muslim faith) are not perceived well from the other Balkan people. I did not say anything about Arvanites/Arbereshe (who are actually Christians). Are the Chams Christians? I doubt that.




> Yes if people wan't to learn more, they can watch the video i linked. That is why i linked it to start with. Do you want me to come and massage your neck and give you comments on the things she says? I am no servant. I linked the video to be nice so you could watch it yourselves, and i just listed some of the points of the video so people had a chance to know if it was something they would be interested in seeing or not. So if you don't want to watch the video, don't watch it. But don't expect me to elaborate everything she says within that whole hour of lecture. Watch it yourself again if you really don't remember what she says. And you must not remember, since you ask me to repeat her arguments to you..

----------


## Diomedes

It's not about that video. It is when you say how lands will return where they belong and the like (meaning greater Albania of course). 




> And why you, as a greek yourself, see a link to a lecture of The University of Athens as a provocation. That i simply can't grasp

----------


## Balkanite

> It's not about that video. It is when you say how lands will return where they belong and the like (meaning greater Albania of course).


YES, she said that in the video! She is a greek, so of course she is not talking of greater albania, she is just telling her views on what will happen in the world scene during the next decades.
If you had seen the video, you would know that i was just citing what she says!!

----------


## Yetos

Chams were Ottoman citizens,
who Benizelos did not change at the exchange of population.

----------


## Yetos

> And why you, as a greek yourself, see a link to a lecture of The University of Athens as a provocation. That i simply can't grasp


a lecture at university means nothing,
*
in one amphitheater they can glorify communism,
and in the next they can glorify capitalism*,

THAT IS DEMOCRACY AND UNIVERSITY,
AN OPEN TO DISCUSSION.
WHAT IS SAID AT UNIVERSITY DOES NOT ALWaYS MEAN IS CORRECT.
THE METHODS, THE DATA, THE RESULTS ETC MAKE IT CORRECT.

*even lectures for 'alliens' can be heard at university.
*the aftermath make the difference,
do you know how many Phd are ruined etc etc aftermath?

and back to you,
memory of a goldfish, Haldoupi,

----------


## LABERIA

> Chams would have been alright and still live in that area should they have not assisted the Nazi Germans--I do not mean all of the Cham population. That was the main reason Napoleon Zervas and his squad did what they did.
> 
> By and large, Albanians are seen badly by the rest of the Balkans because they became Muslims and assisted the Turks. The truth hurts unfortunately and it is sad that many Albanians turned to become Mohammedans when Skanderbeg faught with such passion the Turks and kept Kruja and the vicinity Ottoman free for a quarter of a century.


I think you are wrong. 

2002
Miranda Vickers:
The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece

Introduction

The Chams are the ethnic Albanian, and predominantly Muslim, population from the area of north western Greece known to Greeks as Threspotia and to Albanians as Chameria. The region, which is centred around the Tsamis river, extends from Butrint and the mouth of the Acheron River to Lake Prespa in the north, eastward to the Pindus mountains and south as far as Preveza and the Gulf of Arta. Nineteenth century British travellers such as Lord Byron and his companion John Hobhouse noted the preponderance of Albanian-speakers in these regions. 


Historical Background

The name 'Chameria' comes from the ancient Illyrian name for the Tsamis River, which traversed the territory of the ancient Illyrian tribe of Thesprotes. Chameria was part of the Roman Empire before being conquered by the Byzantines, and in the thirteenth century it became part of the Epirus despotate. In the second half of the fourteenth century it was included in the Albanian despotate of Arta. After the Ottoman invasion in the 15th century it was firstly in the sanjak (municipality) of Delvina, then in that of Janina. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the mostly Albanian population of northern Chameria - from Konispol to the Gliqi river - was forcibly converted to Islam, whilst those living south of the Gliqi down to Preveza Bay remained Orthodox Christians. 
After the defeat of the Ottoman forces during the Balkan Wars (1912-1913), the future of Albanian-inhabited areas was discussed at the hastily convened Conference of Ambassadors held in London in December 1912-January 1913, where it was agreed in principle to support the establishment of Albania as a new political entity.
Greece had emerged from the Balkan Wars with a heightened sense of achievement, and a determination to try to secure southern Albania for Greece. The emphasis was not on territory that was ethnically strictly Greek, but rather on lands in which Hellenic civilisation was believed to be predominant. (8) In October 1913 the Epirote insurrection broke out, as Greek volunteers raided southern Albania, terrorising its inhabitants by burning their villages. The Greek objective was to set up an autonomous Vorio Epirus (Northern Epirus), in an attempt to sabotage the international discussions then being held in Florence on the future status of the region. Finally in December 1913, the Powers agreed on the terms of the Protocol of Florence, whereby, in return for Serbia's retreat from Albanian territory, Austria reluctantly agreed that the Albanian districts in what is now Kosovo and Macedonia should be formerly ceded to Serbia, whilst Greece received the large southern region of Chameria. The Albanian state was thus reduced to the central regions together with the town of Shkodër and its surrounding territory. 
Following the establishment of the Florence Line, some Greek troops began to withdraw from Chameria. Greek terrorist bands, however, remained as active as ever. As the majority of Chams were Muslim, they were treated with the same contempt as ethnic Turks living in Greece. On 23 February 1913, 72 people were killed in the village of Proi i Selanit near Paramithia. This marked the beginning of attacks on Albanian Muslim civilian targets, which were designed to instil fear into the population and thus prompt them to leave their homes. Throughout the next decade, the property of Albanian Muslims was systematically looted and many young men were deported to internal exile on the Aegean islands. Thousands of hectares of Cham-owned land were expropriated without compensation, their harvests were requisitioned, and they were prohibited from sowing their corn, or from selling or letting their property to forestall its expropriation. It was thus rendered impossible for many families to remain in Greece - forcing them to flee northwards to Albanian in search of land. (9) In an effort to settle the Cham issue, the Athens government had tried to gain Ankara's approval for encouraging some Chams to migrate to Turkey, in the hope that the rest would follow. Initially Ankara had been unwilling to allow the settlement of Albanian Muslims on Turkish soil, but following intense diplomatic efforts by Athens, the Turkish government agreed to allow the settlement of some 5,000 Chams.
Meanwhile, in 1923, the position regarding the 20,000 or so Muslim Albanians still remaining in northern Greece was being hotly debated at a special session of the Council of the League of Nations. The convention that made possible the exchange of Greek and Turkish populations had been signed at the Lausanne Conference on 30 January 1923. The Albanian government had then insisted, via telegrams and delegations to the League, that the Greek authorities were forcing the Chams to leave their homes and move to Turkey, and that their lands were being settled by Greek immigrants from Asia Minor. The Greeks countered these accusations by arguing that the term 'Albanian' could only be applied to those who were born in Albania, thereby excluding from consideration the Greek-born Albanian Muslims, who were equated with Turks. The League responded to the Albanian allegations by establishing a Mixed Commission to examine the question in detail.
In March 1924, the Commission decided that Greek subjects who were Muslims and of Albanian origin, and more specifically those residing in Epirus, had to be excluded from the compulsory exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. (10) For the Albanian Chams, however, the issue centred around their claims to belong to the Albanian nation. The Council of the League discussed this matter during its thirtieth session (29 August-3 October): the Albanian position maintained that the Greek authorities were encouraging the 'Albanians of Epirus' to consider mass migration by calling them 'Greeks of Turkish origin' and convincing them to adopt the second identity in their public pronouncements. The Council finally decided to appoint neutral members of the Mixed Commission as its 'mandatories' charged with the responsibility of protecting the 'Muslim minority of Albanian origin' residing in Greece. (11) Meanwhile, the Athens government settled Greek immigrants from Asia Minor in Chameria in order to populate it with Orthodox Christians, and to put further pressure on the remaining Albanian Muslims to emigrate. Throughout the 1920s entire villages, such as Petrovica and Shëndellinja were emptied of their Albanian inhabitants. Whole families left for Albania, Turkey and America.
In March 1926, the Greek government declared that the process of population exchange was over and that the Chams would henceforth have the same rights as those enjoyed by other Greek citizens, However, these "rights" remained highly selective. No Albanian-language schools were permitted and the speaking of Albanian was discouraged outside the home. The signing of the Italian-Albanian pact in November 1926 caused some anxiety in Athens and focused Greek attention on the still unresolved question of the Chams, which was leading to increased tensions between Greece and Albania. The Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs had serious reservations about the pact because it was feared that the interests of the Albanians for their "brothers" in Epirus now had the backing of an important power, whose territorial ambitions in the Balkans could benefit from the existence of the Cham minority which favoured Italy and was hostile to the Greek state. Italy could also use the Chams as a counterweight to Greek ambitions in southern Albania.
Albanian charges directed against Greece concerning the Muslims of Chameria gradually increased and reached their climax during the first half of 1928. In March, the Albanian Foreign Ministry delivered a memorandum to the Greek chargé d'affaires in Tirana, which highlighted Tirana's concern over the 'austere measures' exercised by the local authorities against the Chams, and expressed a formal protest that the Greek government did not recognise them as a 'national minority'.
The Greek side argued that 'the Albanian government had no right to get involved in the domestic affairs of another country: the Chams were Greek citizens and the projection of Albania as a protector state constituted disregard of the basic elements of Greek sovereign rights.' (12) With the coming to power of the Ioannis Metaxas fascist government in 1936, the situation of the Albanian population of Chameria became even more difficult. The colonisation of the area by Greeks intensified, confiscation of Cham property was stepped up and the names of places inhabited by Albanians were replaced by Greek place names. (13) In the meantime, the League of Nations continued to note the Albanian protests over the treatment of the Chams, but by then more important issues were now emerging concerning other minorities in Europe. 
Source:
[reprint of: Miranda Vickers: The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece. ISBN 1-903584-76-0 (Conflict Studies Research Centre, Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, Surrey 2002), reprint in: Südosteuropa, Zeitschrift für Gegenwartsforschung, Munich, 2002, 51, 4-6, p. 228-249. For an update on the Cham issue, cf. Miranda Vickers: The Cham Issue, Where to Now?, January 2007, at: http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/d...ings/balkan/ ]


As you can see, an Albanian territory, inhabited since antiquity by Albanians, was given as a gift to Greece by the Great Powers. The region was invaded by Greece during the Balkan Wars. And from this moment Greece start a genocide against the authocthonous population of this region the Albanians. The intention is evident, ethnic cleaning. For 30 years the muslim Albanians were killed and expelled. At their place, Greece settled Christian Turks arrived from Asia Minor during the exchange of population between Turkey and Greece. The christian Albanians are not recognised as a minority. Do you have any information about the existence of any Albanian school for this people in the region of Çamëria or South Epir today under Greek occupation? If you know, tell us please. 
About the conversion of the Albanians in Muslims, i don't think that you are the right person to discuss this. 
I asked in another thread to another greek member to show me a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during the invasion of Greece, roughly XIV-XV century. He didn't show me a single battle. The resistance of the Albanians against Ottomans and their role in saving Europe from the Ottoman invasion is well documented and recognized. 
But i want to be honest with you. When i asked your friend to show me a battle of greeks against the Ottomans, my intention was not to beat the chest, no. The point is there were greeks back in XIV-XV century? Because two centuries without a peep are too much. It's like the electrocardiograma of a dead person.

----------


## Balkanite

> a lecture at university means nothing,
> 
> and back to you,
> memory of a goldfish, Haldoupi,


Yea your right. Maybe your nationalistic chants and your insults mean more that lectures at The Univeristy of Athens.

----------


## Balkanite

> I think you are wrong. 
> 
> 2002
> Miranda Vickers:
> The Cham Issue: Albanian National and Property Claims in Greece
> 
> Introduction
> 
> The Chams are the ethnic Albanian, and predominantly Muslim, population from the area of north western Greece known to Greeks as Threspotia and to Albanians as Chameria. The region, which is centred around the Tsamis river, extends from Butrint and the mouth of the Acheron River to Lake Prespa in the north, eastward to the Pindus mountains and south as far as Preveza and the Gulf of Arta. Nineteenth century British travellers such as Lord Byron and his companion John Hobhouse noted the preponderance of Albanian-speakers in these regions. 
> ...


Don't bother stating facts. They wont even listen to their own greek professors. Why should they listen to you?
It will just exhaust you for no reward.

----------


## LABERIA

> I'm not quite sure I'm following the logic here. Is this just code for proposing a change of borders in accordance with hotly contested versions of medieval history? 
> 
> Honestly, from an outsider, I think your time would be better spent figuring out how to increase prosperity and quality of life for people no matter where they are.


There are part of posts here in greek and not in English. Can you give a solution to this situation, please? Thank you.

----------


## LATGAL

> Various stuff


The Albanians came to Epirus in late medieval times, the Greeks of Epirus were just as 'autochthonous' and a minority of Albanians existed in the Greek part of Epirus along the coast much like a Greek minority existed in the Albanian part, in the Southwest at the time of the Balkan Wars. So there was no 'gifting' and there were respective 'occupations'. In that area, both states ended up incorporating territory that was mostly inhabited by their own people respectively with some minorities inevitably left out. I won't get into the more contentious issues. (Unless of course you're referring _only_ to the specific part of Greek Epirus that was inhabited by Albanians, i.e. much of the Western part, in which case some of my comments can be safely ignored but based on past interactions you think that the whole of Epirus was inhabited only by Albanians and we're basically retreading the same ground here again and again, but apparently that's how it is)

A text full of inaccuracies is apparently 'stating facts'.

----------


## LABERIA

> The Albanians came to Epirus in late medieval times, the Greeks of Epirus were just as 'autochthonous' and a minority of Albanians existed in the Greek part of Epirus along the coast much like a Greek minority existed in the Albanian part, in the Southwest at the time of the Balkan Wars. So there was no 'gifting' and there were respective 'occupations'. In that area, both states ended up incorporating territory that was mostly inhabited by their own people respectively with some minorities inevitably left out. I won't get into the more contentious issues. (Unless of course you're referring _only_ to the specific part of Greek Epirus that was inhabited by Albanians, i.e. much of the Western part, in which case some of my comments can be safely ignored but based on past interactions you think that the whole of Epirus was inhabited only by Albanians and we're basically retreading the same ground here again and again, but apparently that's how it is)
> 
> A text full of inaccuracies is apparently 'stating facts'.


Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.

----------


## LABERIA

> Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.


EDIT. 
About the discussion of the % of the Albanians in Greece. According to Paparrigopoulos, who was supposed to be the best prototype of a neogreek, among different others, was the mixture between greek and Albanians, something like this. Maybe you can help finding the correct quote from Paparrigopoulos.

----------


## Yetos

> EDIT. 
> About the discussion of the % of the Albanians in Greece. According to Paparrigopoulos, the best neogreek was the mixture between greek and Albanians, something like this. Maybe you can help finding the correct quote from Paparrigopoulos.



According Kolokotronis memoirs we see something else
Beside yesterday was the Battle of Lalla
*Laberia plz tell us what Kolokotronis says at his Memories?

I also suggest to read Λαμπρου-Muller work,*

it gives 10 000 the Albanians at Thessaly.

----------


## LATGAL

> Yes, all are inaccurate, leftist, marxists, jewish, etc. I can make a long answer to your post, but i am interested if you can elaborate your theory about this migration of the Albanians in Epir in late middle age.


I was referring to your summary below. The addition about "leftists, Marxists and Jews" is your own fantasy and you added that for very transparent reasons.

The quoted text had its problems too but when we can't agree on some more basic things, which is fair enough and has become clear abundantly after plenty of conversations, there's little use to get into the details.

----------


## LABERIA

> I was referring to your summary below. The addition about "leftists, Marxists and Jews" is your own fantasy and you added that for very transparent reasons.
> 
> The quoted text had its problems too but when we can't agree on some more basic things, which is fair enough and has become clear abundantly after plenty of conversations, there's little use to get into the details.


Ok, thank you, i understand your point. So you will continue to say that Albanians arrived in Epir in the late middle age but you will not elaborate this your theory.

----------


## Diomedes

> I asked in another thread to another greek member to show me a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during the invasion of Greece, roughly XIV-XV century. He didn't show me a single battle.


There were multiple events of battles against the Turks. That person did not know, it is simple.

----------


## LABERIA

> There were multiple events of battles against the Turks. That person did not know, it is simple.


It's a good thing that you know. I am very curious.

----------


## Yetos

@ Laberia

I like your signature,

what are you? Greek Epirotis, or Celtic Illyrian?

----------


## Angela

Maybe I have a bit of my Roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed Balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of Gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the Balkans can try to get on with their lives.

For the Asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.

----------


## Garrick

> Upon reading the news regarding the referendum of independence in Catalonia--which, as it seems, will not be acknowledged by Spain,--I was wondering if there will be other parts of Europe that might ask for something similar. Our society nowadays in not that oppressive as it used to be and, frankly speaking, not all boarders are drawn as they should have been. Ergo, I was wondering whether European boarders will be the same in the future.


In the first instance for Europe (EU) are more important external borders. This does mean that should be paranoid and completely prohibit foreign migration but process must be under control and border troops are necessary.

----------


## Yetos

> Maybe I have a bit of my Roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed Balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of Gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the Balkans can try to get on with their lives.
> 
> For the Asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.



hahahaha  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

if you do not bring new religion and build Scythopolis,
you can exterminate Greeks and especially the Makedonians

----------


## LABERIA

> @ Laberia
> 
> I like your signature,
> 
> what are you? Greek Epirotis, or Celtic Illyrian?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsMG59EALg

----------


## Angela

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsMG59EALg


What is the meaning of this you tube video, and what relevance does it have to the topic?

----------


## Yetos

> What is the meaning of this you tube video, and what relevance does it have to the topic?



nothing, 
he has no answer for his signature so he had to post something,

----------


## LABERIA

> nothing, 
> he has no answer for his signature so he had to post something,


I don't answer to your question because is of topic and also is a provocative question. Your intention is to start again a new flame war. Unfortunately only our moderator with the spear don't understand this. But when you cross the red line, then i am forced to intervene. 
Usually i avoid to engage an discussion with you, because first there is nothing that can be discussed with you and second, since your posts are totally inaccurate i prefer to avoid calling an old man like you a liar. Consider this as a sign of respect for your age and not for your contribution in this forum.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't answer to your question because is of topic and also is a provocative question. Your intention is to start again a new flame war. Unfortunately only our moderator with the spear don't understand this. But when you cross the red line, then i am forced to intervene. 
> Usually i avoid to engage an discussion with you, because first there is nothing that can be discussed with you and second, since your posts are totally inaccurate i prefer to avoid calling an old man like you a liar. Consider this as a sign of respect for your age and not for your contribution in this forum.


I really do wonder,
Who your ancestors are?
Greek Apeirotan? or Celto-Illyrians?

----------


## Angela

Yetos, cut it out. Stop needling him.

Laberia, you're a fine one to talk about going off-topic. Either explain how that video is relevant, or I'll have to assume that it was some attempt at ********. 

One more peep out of either of you and you'll both get infractions.

Take it to the Balkan Disagreements thread so you don't bother other people.

----------


## I1a3_Young

> maybe i have a bit of my roman ancestors in me. I suggest taking all the hot under the collar, border, ethnicity obsessed balkanites and setting aside a good chunk of land for them. Then let them fight it out. It would be like a modern version of gladiator games, only no one gets out, not even the victors. Maybe that way the rest of the people of the balkans can try to get on with their lives.
> 
> For the asperger types, it's obviously not a serious suggestion.


balkan thunderdome

----------


## Boreas

Catalania
Bosnian Serbs
Donbass

*After Brexit*
Unification of Ireland
Scotland


Is there any movement in Kosovo about unification with Albania?

----------


## Balkanite

> Catalania
> Bosnian Serbs
> Donbass
> 
> *After Brexit*
> Unification of Ireland
> Scotland
> 
> 
> Is there any movement in Kosovo about unification with Albania?


Yes but it is slow. Balkan politics are very complicated.
But imo, right now it seems like they are slowly preparing Fyrom for partitioning between Albania and bulgaria.
In the beginning there may be some cold air or some verbal wars between the Fyrom bulgars and bulgaria bulgars, but at that time the Fyrom rulling class will be so weakened, that the bulgarian government and media will be able to make a takeover on the eastern part of fyrom relatively peacefully.(the bulgars gotta convince the "macedonians" that they are actually still bulgars, while the serbs will protest as usual)
The Fyrom albanians on the other hand will be glad to join Albania.

I believe that only after this happens, the plan of uniting kosova , Albania and western Fyrom will happen

----------


## Balkanite

Although its not certain that eastern Fyrom will reunite with bulgaria. Maybe it will just be a small country by itself, Although i doubt it


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## Yetos

> Yes but it is slow. Balkan politics are very complicated.
> But imo, right now it seems like they are slowly preparing Fyrom for partitioning between Albania and bulgaria.
> In the beginning there may be some cold air or some verbal wars between the Fyrom bulgars and bulgaria bulgars, but at that time the Fyrom rulling class will be so weakened, that the bulgarian government and media will be able to make a takeover on the eastern part of fyrom relatively peacefully.(the bulgars gotta convince the "macedonians" that they are actually still bulgars, while the serbs will protest as usual)
> The Fyrom albanians on the other hand will be glad to join Albania.
> 
> I believe that only after this happens, the plan of uniting kosova , Albania and western Fyrom will happen


That is *Amber Fox 2* plan
split of Fyrom and Kossovo 
Tettovo unites with Kossovo and Petz ,Mitrovitsa with Serbia
*creating homogenous countries and not minorities*

there is also the case of Bosnia split as also Montenegro if expand Amber Fox 2
that full plan (amber Fox 2) is making Big Albania 2 parts, Big Serbia, Big Croatia, small Bosnia, and eliminates MonteNegro and Fyrom.
but monteNegro is already at NATO, which makes things more complicated.


*there is also the chance to stop Amber Fox 2,*
Fyrom's new president suggested the name of the country as Bardaria
and negotiations are in NATO.
if the Fyrom constitution change the name in their constitution charta,
then enters NATO and Amber Fox 2 plan is abandoned,
Skopjie becomes then the biggest NATO base, in Europe.
new airport.
and the road Avlona (Vlore) Skopjie becomes a highway for troops

it is up to Zaev's and the Albanian's of tettovo if that country will remain or not.

Remember if Fyrom Splits then Greece can raise the lost properties subject from the times of Makedonian struggle till WW2.
that subject is making Greeks (citizenship) automatically more than 300 000 citizen of Fyrom (125 000 are greeks) (the kids of Communistic paidomazoma gain the Greek citizenship)
and restores properties from N Greece Epirus Thrace and Monesterion Stomnitsa Perlepe Eygeleia etc
a mutual difference that Both Greece and Skopjie keep in silence, from WW2
As also Serbia can raise demands on Kumanovo from WW1 and balkan wars times,
Fyrom has the old Yugoslavian borders, but this borders have a History before creation of Yugoslavia

previous was 








I hope what ever big powers decide.
be with no 'smart' waepons, and not a single death by bullet.
we had enough in Balkans from foreigns

----------


## Leandros

Albanian propaganda, nothing more or less

----------


## blevins13

> It's a good thing that you know. I am very curious.


I am curious too, or probably there were busy translating something.....


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## blevins13

> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsMG59EALg


If they can do this to their own people imagine what they have done to cams.....nasty.


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## Yetos

> If they can do this to their own people imagine what they have done to cams.....nasty.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



hahaha

Chams? the goat breeders (from Chamois) that unite with Fasism and Nazism and execute innocent Greeks?




you mean them Blevins?


and the anecdoton is that Xilia was saved by Communist rebel Party EAM

----------


## blevins13

> hahaha
> 
> Chams? the goat breeders (from Chamois) that unite with Fasism and Nazism and execute innocent Greeks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you mean them Blevins?
> 
> ...


Exactly....collaboration with nazism was called than, ethnic cleaning is call now days. 


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## blevins13

> hahaha
> 
> Chams? the goat breeders (from Chamois) that unite with Fasism and Nazism and execute innocent Greeks?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you mean them Blevins?
> 
> ...


I guess Jews had similar problem as well...happens to be in Greece..: :Poh: itiful. 
http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/6341...alonikas-jews/ 



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## Angela

If this keeps up I'm going to start issuing infractions and then close the thread. Take it to the Balkans Disagreements thread and stop ruining half the threads on this site. ENOUGH!

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## blevins13

> If this keeps up I'm going to start issuing infractions and then close the thread. Take it to the Balkans Disagreements thread and stop ruining half the threads on this site. ENOUGH!


Angela guarda questo per capire de che sto parlando.... https://www.iene.mediaset.it/video/r...b21c81f1081d34 


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## Angela

> Angela guarda questo per capire de che sto parlando.... https://www.iene.mediaset.it/video/r...b21c81f1081d34 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


What a heart-breaking situation. Kudos to the Italian journalist for his compassion and for being furbo enough to figure out a way that this old man could see his childhood home. It had me crying as well. I could just imagine how I would feel if it were me. Some laws are meant to be broken.

The stupidity of not reaching a legal agreement as to this matter is obvious. I honestly find it hard to believe, and honestly didn't know that there's been no formal "treaty" between the two countries. Could it really just be spite because the Albanian passport uses the Albanian name for his birthplace? Just out of compassion for its own people, couldn't the Albanian government issue passports to these people with the Greek name? One of these countries has to take the high road and be "bigger" about this nonsense. Or, the Albanian exiles could give up claims to the property which they left behind in return for some compensation from the Greek government . This is probably what most of this is about and why some jerk called the police. Someone else is living in the old man's house after all. 

It should apply to Greeks similarly affected as well. I don't know of a single conflict in history where one side was always noble and the other side evil. In my own area there were partisans who had noble goals and acted responsibly, and there were ones who were stupid and reckless and brought suffering on innocent people, or who just used the struggle as a means to bring about communism and kill anyone who didn't support that. Likewise, there were nominal fascists who were decent people and some who were monsters and willing accomplices to the Germans. People are infinitely complicated and more so in war time.

I don't know what to tell you, Blevins. It's a mess between two governments, and individuals are caught in the middle and suffer.

As much compassion as I have for the people caught up in this, it doesn't mean that we can allow every thread to be de-railed into a discussion of grievances between countries in the Balkans. That's why we created a separate thread for it. People have to use it.

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## blevins13

> What a heart-breaking situation. Kudos to the Italian journalist for his compassion and for being furbo enough to figure out a way that this old man could see his childhood home. It had me crying as well. I could just imagine how I would feel if it were me. Some laws are meant to be broken.
> 
> The stupidity of not reaching a legal agreement as to this matter is obvious. I honestly find it hard to believe, and honestly didn't know that there's been no formal "treaty" between the two countries. Could it really just be spite because the Albanian passport uses the Albanian name for his birthplace? Just out of compassion for its own people, couldn't the Albanian government issue passports to these people with the Greek name? One of these countries has to take the high road and be "bigger" about this nonsense. Or, the Albanian exiles could give up claims to the property which they left behind in return for some compensation from the Greek government . This is probably what most of this is about and why some jerk called the police. Someone else is living in the old man's house after all. 
> 
> It should apply to Greeks similarly affected as well. I don't know of a single conflict in history where one side was always noble and the other side evil. In my own area there were partisans who had noble goals and acted responsibly, and there were ones who were stupid and reckless and brought suffering on innocent people, or who just used the struggle as a means to bring about communism and kill anyone who didn't support that. Likewise, there were nominal fascists who were decent people and some who were monsters and willing accomplices to the Germans. People are infinitely complicated and more so in war time.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you, Blevins. It's a mess between two governments, and individuals are caught in the middle and suffer.
> 
> As much compassion as I have for the people caught up in this, it doesn't mean that we can allow every thread to be de-railed into a discussion of grievances between countries in the Balkans. That's why we created a separate thread for it. People have to use it.


Angela the point is that without healing the wounds of the past there will be no settlement between countries. Look at Catalunya the past is still haunting them, they want to separate.


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## LABERIA

> I am curious too, or probably there were busy translating something.....
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Probably i have asked the wrong person. Maybe others may have much more information.

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## ihype02

...................................

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