# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  First Celts

## kenshin

The original Celts came from central Europe. However modern central Europeans (Swiss and Austrians) don't look phenotypically Celtic in the modern interpretation (Irish, welsh). Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.

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## johen

edit: Never mind

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## Athiudisc

> Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.


Yes.

More seriously, why not both?

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## kenshin

> why not both?


Swiss and southern germans look really different from welsh and irish, and are very different genitically.

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## Greying Wanderer

My guess is there were two waves from the same source but they took different routes and mixed with different people along the way so look different.

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## MOESAN

1- Swiss people present different means of phenotypical traits according to regions, and are a bit different from Austrians themselves not too homogenous by regions. 
2- As Irishpeople they show genetical admixtures (phenotype: crossings).
3- Switzerland present - rather in TODAY germanic regions, it's true - an honorable amount of red hairs and freckling.
4- Celts, spite already mixed when arriving in Western Europe, were surely less mixed than later, when sedentized with new crossings: different according to places: Irish people absorbed, I think, more HG inherited DNA than Swiss.
5- irish people were almost not concerned at all by Roman colonization and admixture which could have decreased HG DNA. It's not the case for Swiss people.
I dont discard at all numerous diverse roads taken by Celts in their long march towards West.
In short, I would say, Switzerland, mountainous, can preserv more regional differences. But also, this country sheltered more neolithic populations in some places for te same reason before Steppic imput, and accepted more new populations later.

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## Sloven-Vened

Scientists - Slovakian and European archeologists speak "Celts" to people of Hallstatt culture. It are only "metaforic" Celts, it is not the same as Celts in popular literature and cinematography. British Celts and Celts of Hallstatt culture this are 2 very different ethnic groups

Hallstatt culture in wikipedia

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## Sloven-Vened

*Cyril Hroník is Slovakian historian and linguistic expert with very rich and world academic career is skeptical to "Celts" in middle Europa too: Ethymology of word "Celt" (or Gals or Gaels) is "outlaw / bandit, gangster"*


Dr. Cyril Hromník

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## MOESAN

'celt' is not the same thing as 'gall-' # nor 'gael' << 'gaedil''goidel'; so no common eymology for them; the best specialists tried to find an etymology for 'celt' and there is not accord on it so open are the possibilities, for I know. Taranis could surely say something up to date of more precise about it.

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## suebiking

Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.

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## MOESAN

Not the only tribe, I think. Ancient Greeks mentioned Keltoi in today Southern France; they believed, i think, that Celts ruled the whole Occident of Europe at these times. A noble Arverne mentioned by Julius Caesar and supposed to be the Vercingetorix's father, was named Celtillos : name where the root "celt" is obvious.
I wonder if celtic 'kelt' would not be a I-E cognate of the current germanic word 'held': "heros"? just an hypothesis among others...

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## bicicleur

there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker

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## Yetos

The terminatination Keltos Gaul celt Galates I think, personal opinion that mean speaker, or coal miners-producers
compare celtic tribes name, Walloon Walles Gaul Wallach etc etc 
all fit with words like Yell, γλωττα (language)

anyway, it is not mine, but I can not remember where I heve read it or heard it.
but both cases, Speakers/language, and coal miners/fire people, are accepted by me and shared as possible,

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## Taranis

> Tell me if I am wrong but the only people that identified with the word celt were the 'celtici' in southern portugal.


The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "_Celtillus_" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.

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## Sloven-Vened

You can download english language scientific publication of archeologist _Egon Wiedermann_: 
*Prehistoric Settlement, Celts in middle Europa, Slovakia, 
*click to this link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...satian-Culture
Publishers of British Archaeological Reports

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## Olympus Mons

> there are 2 groups of Celts : Halstatt and Atlantic Celts
> IMO both descend from Csepl Bell Beaker


Csepel? - Why would you say that? did you the Boehmia group?

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## MOESAN

@yetos:
Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.

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## Sile

> The word 'Celt' was the name of the Gauls for themselves (the Gauls of 'Celtic' Gaul, as opposed to Belgic Gaul). The word (as part of a name, such as "_Celtillus_" ('little Celt' - also the name of Vercingetorix' own father) also shows up in dozens of inscriptions from Gaul.


Be it right or wrong , to distinguish this large celtic group ( to include the balkan celts ), I have ......

All are of *GALLIC ethnicity* and some speak a CELTIC language and some speak a GAULISH language ............and these languages are very similar but do have some minor differences.

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## Yetos

> @yetos:
> Galati and Kelti are surely different and Gauls is proven to be different, so i doubt they could have common etymology; wilde etymologies are the cancer of paleolinguistic; the most reliable scholars are the most prudent! And even some well graduate scientists fall in the trap of hypothesis presented as undiscutable facts, helas.


All these are the same name of the same linguistic group.
Greeks call them Galates, belgae celts that moved to minor Asia (Brennos or vae victis story)
Herodotos names them Keltos
later Greeks call them Galloi, 
their inner names Wallons Walles Wallach etc etc now this W in Greek turns to Γ K or B (C G V)
Aromani language which is celtic is called Armanesti, *VLACHISTI* (maybe *wallachisti or villachisti*?)
At the language of some Pontic Greeks we see the word *γαλαντζευω* (*whala*-) and means speak at own language/dialect

it can be coinsidence but the word for language and tongue in Greek Γλωττα Γλωσσα Γρουσσα, Γλωσσα try Γ-> wh or G and add an a, YOU GET Whalutta Whallussa or Galussa Galutta 

the english word *YELL* cognates with the ancient Greek word* ΚΕΛΕΥΩ ΚΕΛΛΩ, IE Kel-
*at the lexicons we see synonyms are words
*κελητας κελης κελευστης* etc, means the one who is yelling orders, the yelling commander, (hero?)
in modern Greek is replaced by καλω *call
*The birds in Greek are not singing, they *Κελ-αιδουν,* they communicate and call each other
the ςατερ ατ waterfalls and streams do not make noise, they *Κελ-αριζουν,* they speak

*PS*
There is another option, that Gaul means goat leather/fleece wearer, the ai-*Callicum,* but I doupt

PS2
so yes I am not a linguist, and I have not conviced you
but since you are, can you explain the commonalities as concern the language? 
cause I think you now have enough stable base to search,
*Anyway I do not believe cancer in linguistics*, but on the other hand I CAN NOT REJECT, using a scizzorcut, THAT CELT COMES FROM IE root KEL- means call speak command etc
from the same root that word Γλωσσα comes from, except if you prefer to lang- than to kel- (or it is kelan-guage?)

maybe I have not convice you, but I am certain that words Kelt Celt Gaul Whallon Whallach etc etc come from the same root of IE kel-

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## Volat

Many sources state that some Tarim Mummies are related to Celts. How people determined their relation to ancient Celts is unclear. This one forum member wrote earlier. The physical appearance of Tarim Mummies has been preserved in the sand.

---


Secondly, the red-haired Tarim mummies wearing tartan clothes similar to those of Hallstatt only dated from 1000 BCE, and were not tested for DNA. They might have been a later arrival to the region (who knows perhaps a very far offshoot of Hallstatt, as incredible as it sounds ? But the presence of red hair and tartan and a Centum language, all associated with Celtic people, in the Tarim basin is all incredible enough in itself, so why not ?)

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## A. Papadimitriou

> Not the only tribe, I think. Ancient Greeks mentioned Keltoi in today Southern France; they believed, i think, that Celts ruled the whole Occident of Europe at these times. A noble Arverne mentioned by Julius Caesar and supposed to be the Vercingetorix's father, was named Celtillos : name where the root "celt" is obvious.
> I wonder if celtic 'kelt' would not be a I-E cognate of the current germanic word 'held': "heros"? just an hypothesis among others...


Herodotus wrote this 




> For the Ister flows from the land of the Celts and the city of Pyrene through the very middle of Europe; now the Celts live beyond the Pillars of Heracles, being neighbors of the Cynesii, who are the westernmost of all the peoples inhabiting Europe.


It's a little confusing because Ister is Danube. So Pyrene should be placed at the source of Danube. And some have said that it was Heuneburg. 
Most people think that Cynesii would have been Iberians. So, the 'lands of the Celts', included most of modern-day France (?) too.
But the geographical knowledge was limited.

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## MOESAN

Let's stop magic linguistics and etymologies, please.
I don't think greek G- never came from an I-E *Wh-; words (names) in Wal- (an derived french word Gaul- ) are considered of Germanic origin, from a Celtic tribre name Volsque; this Celtic tribe was settled in North-Hessen in Germany before emigrating southwestwards (in southern Gaul or rather Celtica, some of them into Iberia), so surely in contact with Germanic tribes expanding towards southern Germany at some time; the sensible explanation is that this word took the meaning of "stranger" or "foreigner" for Germanic ancient speakers and was applied later by more eastern Germanic tribes to other not-germanic ethnies so 'Valach'. so the french derived word/name Gaul HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH Galat-;
linguistic origins of words/names is not the same problem as language or ethnicity; Welsh/Gaul and Cy are exonyms applying to tribes of very close origins to Celts of Celti(c)a = of Gaul = of Galia; the G- in Gaul is from an ancient Gw- << W- (exonym); Galat- of the Greeks could be related to the Galli of Latins, if we consider Greeks had no more geminees (doubled) letters: I don't know here;
My purpose is not to say there was no link between Celts, Galli, Galati or Walhsc- of some sort; my aim was to affirm the most of this namings are of diverse origin; my first answer was to precise the element 'celt-' was not limited to a soletribe of S-Portugal, only that.
But, please, let's stop with pseudo-linguistics, No offense to anybody, only a wish.

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## MOESAN

little adding: at some time of its evolution it seems Greek *W- (written V-) faded out rather than leave some trace, even in the vowel colour (cf latin 'video' and greek 'idea' and hundreds of other words); I red somewhere the *W- was still pronounced in Mycenian greek.

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## MOESAN

erratum: not Volsques but Volques

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## Olympus Mons

You all (very polite, right?)
Hummm. Look. Reality is always simple. It’s just that we have fun making it complicated.
Just a couple facts always to keep in mind.
1. Remember, even today, people always follow kinship. See, for instance, after colonial people got back to… Kinship. So it’s a force of nature.

2. Up until 1,500 Years ago ( Haak wasn’t it?) Europe was not comparatively admixed. So… people were more or less differentiated by looks.

3 . If we follow bell beakers as a network, those were an homogenous group originating in Portugal, moving to Spain (northern), South France, north Italy, Switzerland and even Hungary (csepel). So later groups of people follow kinship over the centuries across geographical spaces linked by cultural traits. Don’t know how this tight southern group interacted with Northern groups near the Atlantic coast (not eastern) but all seems to indicate that at least, at least, western France, Netherlands and UK were also a part of the same tight group. So the network Linking people probably was all over these mentioned areas.

4. The bohemia group bell beakers (Czech rep) moved up Elbe river, with a lot of CWC admixture with them (we now they did exchange women) and it’s not a stretch of imagination to figure they interacted well (also Kinship) with the originals Iberian groups all over Europe even though they did carry some CWC phenotypes with them. 

5. However, by what, 1000bc (?), these bell beaker network must have gotten very heterogeneous because after 1000 years the local populations genomes, from so many sites, that the original BB groups rejected so visibly must have been pretty much part of whatever milieu was by then the European tribe and culture substratum. Nevertheless the admix for celts, after Bronze Age, was a network that was based on the original (originals?) BB groups (notice I used groups and not group) so it follow some kinship all over Europe… even to south Iberia. And this was Europe. This were the celts. 


6. Some in the north admixed with some CWC blood (women) but no Unetice at all, and others more southern comprised of the original Late neolithic and chalcolithic Iberia diverse people, amongst them were the Bell beakers males born out of the copos culture of Zambujal, VNSP, and leceia and even a bit north of Portugal. Yes, Celtics (in broad sense) in the western versus the Cymbrians and Scythian in the east (really Unetice and CWC remains) the sons of the Yamnaya!

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## Olympus Mons

A. Papadimitriou

Following my previous comment on Bell beakers and Celts, one must bear in mind that when the greeks and later romans started to talk about Iberia they noticed that Iberia was diverse. 
The Cynesii, were actually The non Celtic group. Cynesii, or the Coinos, They were the remains of the Perdigoes and Porto torrao people that had a lot of berber, north African, admixture and kept way from the everything that went down between 2000BC onwards north of them. Cynesii must have been the most similar group to south Iberia Chalcolithic flooding into Iberia from north africa fleeing the 5.9 kiloyear event that made the Sahara desert. Berbers mixed with pure Caucasians that had been in North lower Egypt. Of These later specific group, Those that flee west where to become the bell beaker stock. Those that flee east, following Kindship (always keep an eye in it) became the Cholchis (or part of) and Iberians…. In Georgia (yes, Caucasus). That is why those brought back some sub-Saharan (Nubian and upper nile) admix into the coast of the black sea. 
So, the ancient greeks and even romans noticed it. From south Iberia up there was diferent, there were the Oestrimni people and all the western and north Iberia was at that point the result of the first men that were the bell beakers (non PIE?), and the backflow the follow the next milenia (already pie?) and was a gradient of pie speakers with non-pie speakers, resulting from the blender that the BB millennia network had been. a back flow that did not involved DNA from central eastern groups, even if some were also BB.

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## Yetos

> Let's stop magic linguistics and etymologies, please.
> I don't think greek G- never came from an I-E *Wh-; words (names) in Wal- (an derived french word Gaul- ) are considered of Germanic origin, from a Celtic tribre name Volsque; this Celtic tribe was settled in North-Hessen in Germany before emigrating southwestwards (in southern Gaul or rather Celtica, some of them into Iberia), so surely in contact with Germanic tribes expanding towards southern Germany at some time; the sensible explanation is that this word took the meaning of "stranger" or "foreigner" for Germanic ancient speakers and was applied later by more eastern Germanic tribes to other not-germanic ethnies so 'Valach'. so the french derived word/name Gaul HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH Galat-;
> linguistic origins of words/names is not the same problem as language or ethnicity; Welsh/Gaul and Cy are exonyms applying to tribes of very close origins to Celts of Celti(c)a = of Gaul = of Galia; the G- in Gaul is from an ancient Gw- << W- (exonym); Galat- of the Greeks could be related to the Galli of Latins, if we consider Greeks had no more geminees (doubled) letters: I don't know here;
> My purpose is not to say there was no link between Celts, Galli, Galati or Walhsc- of some sort; my aim was to affirm the most of this namings are of diverse origin; my first answer was to precise the element 'celt-' was not limited to a soletribe of S-Portugal, only that.
> But, please, let's stop with pseudo-linguistics, No offense to anybody, only a wish.


it is not that I want to have last word,
But I believe that all these
Slav 
Kelt
Selloi (Greeks)
come from the virbs of speach,

video and ιδεα from vidi and οιδα? same virb 
video and ιδαιον nothing common,

Besides
Galates is the effort to translate Greek Γ το latin Alphabet,
the corect sound of Γαλατες is not Galates but Whalates
we overpass Erasmian linguistics, which help us a lot during centuries,
Αγρος Agri, Αργυρος Argentum but is not the same sound.

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## Taranis

> little adding: at some time of its evolution it seems Greek *W- (written V-) faded out rather than leave some trace, even in the vowel colour (cf latin 'video' and greek 'idea' and hundreds of other words); I red somewhere the *W- was still pronounced in Mycenian greek.


This is absolutely correct. *w was (largely) lost in Greek by the archaic period (except for some dialects, written with the letter digamma), but it was definitely present in earlier Mycenaean Greek.

- English "work" versus Greek εργον (earlier *ϝεργον).
- αναξ 'king' (earlier *ϝαναξ, spelled Wa-na-ka in Linear B)
- Ilion (the alternate name of the city of Troy), earlier *Wilion (spelled _Wiluša_ in Hittite sources).

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## bicicleur

> A. Papadimitriou
> 
> Following my previous comment on Bell beakers and Celts, one must bear in mind that when the greeks and later romans started to talk about Iberia they noticed that Iberia was diverse. 
> The Cynesii, were actually The non Celtic group. Cynesii, or the Coinos, They were the remains of the Perdigoes and Porto torrao people that had a lot of berber, north African, admixture and kept way from the everything that went down between 2000BC onwards north of them. Cynesii must have been the most similar group to south Iberia Chalcolithic flooding into Iberia from north africa fleeing the 5.9 kiloyear event that made the Sahara desert. Berbers mixed with pure Caucasians that had been in North lower Egypt. Of These later specific group, Those that flee west where to become the bell beaker stock. Those that flee east, following Kindship (always keep an eye in it) became the Cholchis (or part of) and Iberians…. In Georgia (yes, Caucasus). That is why those brought back some sub-Saharan (Nubian and upper nile) admix into the coast of the black sea. 
> So, the ancient greeks and even romans noticed it. From south Iberia up there was diferent, there were the Oestrimni people and all the western and north Iberia was at that point the result of the first men that were the bell beakers (non PIE?), and the backflow the follow the next milenia (already pie?) and was a gradient of pie speakers with non-pie speakers, resulting from the blender that the BB millennia network had been. a back flow that did not involved DNA from central eastern groups, even if some were also BB.


I'm well aware of the 5.9 kiloyear event, which played a role in the proto-Egyptian history.
But I don't know about migrations to Iberia, allthough some might have happened.
Far less do I see a connection with Bell Beakers that appeared 1000 years later.

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## MOESAN

> it is not that I want to have last word,
> But I believe that all these
> Slav 
> Kelt
> Selloi (Greeks)
> come from the virbs of speach,
> 
> video and ιδεα from vidi and οιδα? same virb 
> video and ιδαιον nothing common,
> ...


ThanksYetos for fair « contestation ».
1- Yes common root for 'idein' << *wid- : « I see »,'oida' = « I know », 'eidos' = « look » -some
I-Ewords linked to the meanings of « seeing » or « knowing »have this same root, sort of *weid-;
2-I suppose G- in ancient greek was pronounced /g/ before becoming thesound //close to the dutch pronouciation of G too ; this sound isroughly between /X/and /h/, close enough to modern French 'r' /R/ ;nothing in common with WH, spelling of scot /hw/ from Germanics/hw/ << Kw-; the greek G has nothing in common with thelabial /w/.

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## Aaron1981

> The original Celts came from central Europe. However modern central Europeans (Swiss and Austrians) don't look phenotypically Celtic in the modern interpretation (Irish, welsh). Were the original Celts closer in appearance and genes to the Irish (pale, freckles, red hair) or closer to the Swiss, Austrians, or southern Germans where the original celts came from.


Irish look like the originals, although their dominant male ancestor branched west before they became known as "Celts". Modern Austrians have eastern (Slavic) and southern input (Middle Eastern). The Celts of Central Europe - ie Austria were known to be pale skinned and light haired, including red headed by the Greeks and Romans, and large of frame.

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## Norvila

Please consider parallels:
Lithuania is Lietuva, Lithuanian -Lietuvis in our language.
Littau in Germanic languages. Litavis—also known as Litauis,[1] Litaui, Litauia,[2][3] and Llydaw[4]—is a goddess in Celtic mythology worshiped by the ancient Gauls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litavis
Neris river flows through the capital Vilnius.
Nerius is listed between Celtic gods.
Proto-Celtic *dewo- 'god' = Olr. dia, OW duiu,
Dievas in Lithuanian, "Dievo rankose"-"in the hands of god".

Boii was Celtic tribe, Deserta Bojorum in Roman Pannonia.
15+ placenames Bajoru in Lithuania.
Bajorai was the richest social class of warriors and landowners in Lithuania also in all area from Serbia to Finland.

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## MarkoZ

> Irish look like the originals, although their dominant male ancestor branched west before they became known as "Celts". Modern Austrians have eastern (Slavic) and southern input (Middle Eastern). The Celts of Central Europe - ie Austria were known to be pale skinned and light haired, including red headed by the Greeks and Romans, and large of frame.


The problem with your nordicist tale is that everything about Insular Celtic suggests that it was a recent arrival from continental Europe, with very close affinity to Gaulish. The autosmal profile of the Isles however was established much earlier. The more parsimonious explanation for the shedding of the endonym is that the 'ethnically Celtic' stratum constituted a minority element in the north.

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## Yetos

> 2-I suppose G- in ancient greek was pronounced /g/ before becoming thesound [/FONT]//close to the dutch pronouciation of G too ; this sound isroughly between /X/and /h/, close enough to modern French 'r' /R/ ;nothing in common with WH, spelling of scot /hw/ from Germanics/hw/ << Kw-; the greek G has nothing in common with thelabial /w/.


indeed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++ 
Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G

so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
I think we have something obvious, compare yell, call and κελλω modern καλω, 
Greek διγαμα w also gives B V compare gw, 
only we need is to find if y of yell or c of call and w of Whallach Walloons are just sound adoptation, or evolution/aspirations, is it possible or according linguistic laws? or no?
*and here is where I give up.

*btw the Romans in Makedonia build a small town called Callicum, Greeks turn it to Γαλλικος, when some of them moved later to S Italy by press of Slavs, turn to Italian Galliciano, not Calliciano
this has nothing to do with IE laws, but with sounds much later,

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## Olympus Mons

> I'm well aware of the 5.9 kiloyear event, which played a role in the proto-Egyptian history.
> But I don't know about migrations to Iberia, allthough some might have happened.
> Far less do I see a connection with Bell Beakers that appeared 1000 years later.


Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?

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## MarkoZ

> Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?


Do you think that the maritime Beaker and the high status male burial package that includes wristguard and copper daggers originally entered Europe from North Africa with this migration? I've always thought that Proto-Beaker was basically Moroccan.

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## Taranis

> indeed, but how a Greek would name a Gaul Celt? when he defines him shelf as Gaul or celt Wall+++ 
> Sure not Γκαλατης but Γαλατης, not Γελτος but κελτος,
> remember the name Keltos in Greek was given by Herodotus and Attic dialect,
> but the name Γαλατης was given at Koine times, when for me the Makedonian input was done, as we see at Alexandrine writting B->V and Γ -> wh not G.
> Makedonians write Βερονικη, Αttic Φερενικη and we know Veronica, so at koine after Makedonians B->V and Γ->wh as in why, not G
> 
> so the termination Gal-ates is like Computer and κομπιουτερ, copy of sound, it does not have to follow IE rules,
> the one that has to follow ΙΕ evolution and aspiration rules is virb κελλω κελευω, so if that follows rules
> considering that κελης κελητας κελευστης is the yell of the commander, and if the word Γλωσσα-Γλωττα comes also from the same root,
> ...


This is somewhat offtopic, but I'd like to bring a very important point across here: you're basically using the phonology (and spelling conventions) of modern Greek onto ancient Greek, which is just plain wrong. The letter Gamma (Γγ) would have been pronounced still as /g/ (as in English '*g*ood'). The digraph 'gk' (γκ) would have still been pronounced as /ŋk/ (as in English 'si*nk*'). Likewise, you're mixing up about Macedonian: in the ancient Macedonian dialect, Attic /pʰ/ (written by Φφ) was pronounced /b/. In Koine, Phi started to be pronounced as /f/, but /b/ was still pronounced as /b/. The change of /b/ > /v/ only happened in Late(st) Koine / early Byzantine Greek (hence in medieval sources, the Varangians are spelled _Βαραγγοι_ and not _Ουαραγγοι_).

By the way, I think what Yetos tries to approximate with "wh" is actually voiced velar fricative /ɣ/, a sound which is similar to French 'r' but pronounced slightly further in front of the mouth. This is the modern value of the letter "Gamma" (hence its IPA symbol was also taken off lower case Gamma).

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## Olympus Mons

> Do you think that the maritime Beaker and the high status male burial package that includes wristguard and copper daggers originally entered Europe from North Africa with this migration? I've always thought that Proto-Beaker was basically Moroccan.


a. Stressed out pops getting into Iberia during 4th millennia were diverse and got in rubbing against each other making smoke because they were diverse. If that population was exchanging people between south (alentejo) and North (zambujal/Vnsp) and they show very diverse phenotype, including brachycephalic and also "Armenoid looks", so... yes, they "all" come together form north africa.
b.If bell beakers are first seen in Huts 4 meters from the wall of the leceia fortified settlement, believe me they were "one of them". That thing was a military Power house and no outside or exogenous people would ever be allowed to settle near them. We find inhumation at its walls that nobody even care to bury. See. not nice people.
c. Gosh. Copper dagger is details. See while in Iberia by 3000 bc it is found copper smelting. But the quality of that copper is rubbish. so they made tools of Amphibolic rocks that actually was hard enough. Later bell beaker copper was a token sign that they had found the good stuff. .. Show-offs. :)
d. Bell beakers were the people that left the Fortified sites and started to live in open spaces and move from site to site with their cattle and going back to the life of their ancestors getting back to hunting. They clearly were an elite warrior from whatever happened in south Iberia from 3300 bc to 2900 bc. 
e. I always found funny how they (BB) got back to the initial fortified small settlements of the end of the 4th millenia in south portugal, already abandoned, and resettle those as if part of their folklore. Gosh, that is over 600 years after those initial settlements were the first one to pop up: Porto das Carretas, Mercador, Moinho de Valadares.

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## Yetos

> This is somewhat offtopic, but I'd like to bring a very important point across here: you're basically using the phonology (and spelling conventions) of modern Greek onto ancient Greek, which is just plain wrong. The letter Gamma (Γγ) would have been pronounced still as /g/ (as in English '*g*ood'). The digraph 'gk' (γκ) would have still been pronounced as /ŋk/ (as in English 'si*nk*'). Likewise, you're mixing up about Macedonian: in the ancient Macedonian dialect, Attic /pʰ/ (written by Φφ) was pronounced /b/. In Koine, Phi started to be pronounced as /f/, but /b/ was still pronounced as /b/. The change of /b/ > /v/ only happened in Late(st) Koine / early Byzantine Greek (hence in medieval sources, the Varangians are spelled _Βαραγγοι_ and not _Ουαραγγοι_).



Πιθανή τροπή των ΙΕ ηχηρών δασέων (*/bh/, */dh/, */gh/) σε ηχηρά κλειστά (*/b/, */d/, */g/)

also paragraph 3.2.1
http://www.hellinon.net/NeesSelides/...Makedonika.htm

it is certain that the Makedonians change the sounds of ancient S Greek to koine to modern ones, not the Byzantines.

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## Fire Haired14

> Many sources state that some Tarim Mummies are related to Celts. How people determined their relation to ancient Celts is unclear. This one forum member wrote earlier. The physical appearance of Tarim Mummies has been preserved in the sand.


Tarim mummies have nothing to do with Celts. The only evidence is the Tarim mummies look European. The people who came to this conclusion were not aware that Europeans from Russia made settlements all over Central Asia and Siberia from 3000-2000 BC and some of their descendants lived in that region with little Asian admixture up until 700 AD, so it is no surprise to find ancient mummies of European looking people in Central Asia. The excitement media outlets made about the tarim mummies around 10-20 years ago was based mostly on lies. 





> Secondly, the red-haired Tarim mummies wearing tartan clothes similar to those of Hallstatt only dated from 1000 BCE, and were not tested for DNA. They might have been a later arrival to the region (who knows perhaps a very far offshoot of Hallstatt, as incredible as it sounds ? But the presence of red hair and tartan and a Centum language, all associated with Celtic people, in the Tarim basin is all incredible enough in itself, so why not ?)


I have never seen an image of a red haired Tarim mummy. Unless an archaeologist who has seen mummies that aren't on the internet claims some had red hair, I don't believe any with red hair have been found. The mummies on the internet declared as red haired are all black/brown haired. The claim they have red hair was repeated so many times people started to believe it. 

The claim(lie) they have red hair I believe was used to be evidence they were Celtic.

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## Milan

> Boii was Celtic tribe, Deserta Bojorum in Roman Pannonia.
> 15+ placenames Bajoru in Lithuania.
> Bajorai was the richest social class of warriors and landowners in Lithuania also in all area from Serbia to Finland.


As far the rank Bojars in our language are concerned,it is coming from *Boj (battle,fight) i.e man for battle,OCS *Boi (battle,fight) Proto-Slavic *bojь,the same.
Some consider cognate the Illyrian proper name Boius.

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## Milan

> Neris river flows through the capital Vilnius.
> Nerius is listed between Celtic gods.
> Proto-Celtic *dewo- 'god' = Olr. dia, OW duiu,
> Dievas in Lithuanian, "Dievo rankose"-"in the hands of god".


Nereus is also god in Greek mythology,Neretva is river in Bosnia most probably same IE root.

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## bicicleur

> Humm. Ok. late neolithic people in Iberia (up until 3500 bc) were extremely scarce and very homogeneous (as per Nm dental traits), suddenly a overload of arrows and carinated pottery people flooded into South Iberia and these were very diverse and heterogeneous populations some being clearly related to N.Africa (proto Berber) and other not (tallish brachy and Mesocephalic) but very establish and fortified by 3000 Bc. During the 4th millennia north Africa saw the vanish of a staggering amount of population (read Kate manning) at the same time south Iberia shows settlements of over 100 Ha and even over 300ha (Porto torrao) or a bit north in Zambujal, actually where by 2800 Bell beakers are seen arising... So.,, where is that you are not seeing the connection?


do you mean places like Los Millares, Zambujal and the like ? 
dates are not sharp, but Los Millares I would guess 3100 - 3200 BC and Zambujal even a bit later
these newcomers knew about metallurgy
are there traces of metallurgy in N. Africa ?
you say 2 people , tallish brachy and Mesocephalic are more steppe-like and what traits have proto Berber?
Bell Beaker appears only few centuries after metallurgy and fortified places

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## Olympus Mons

> do you mean places like Los Millares, Zambujal and the like ? 
> dates are not sharp, but Los Millares I would guess 3100 - 3200 BC and Zambujal even a bit later
> these newcomers knew about metallurgy
> are there traces of metallurgy in N. Africa ?
> you say 2 people , tallish brachy and Mesocephalic are more steppe-like and what traits have proto Berber?
> Bell Beaker appears only few centuries after metallurgy and fortified places



Hi Its a bit confusing how you put it.
a. Los millares, la conception, San blas, la pijotilla, Perdigoes, Porto torrão... and a couple centuries later Zambujal, Vnsp, leceia. But it does not matter. its just an explosion of settlements, some huge, huge, at a point populations are vanishing from north Africa... its a no brainer.

b. Mostly they did know how to make long blades. and also brought "tanged" arrows, since later copper Bell beakers daggers were "tanged".... and lots of lots of new traits. And yes. There are smelting of copper in early Zambujal. Lousy copper, but copper. but if you need something that works and is hard, them use Ampholite rock that they imported a lot from central Iberia. so copper was too poor to have any usage.

c. Also they brought a lot of Ivory from Africa. which later you would find as an elite V perforated buttons on bell beaker burials. and lots and lots of more stuff from Africa.

d . Overall there were too many different phenotypes. In Carenque you find skeletons and crania that were Hyper-Doly to Hyper Barchy. and some were small like Muge people and Hyper-Doly and others where bigger and extreme round-headsand taller (specially women) . 
But most were Mediterraneans looking people like Capsians in N. Africa or late neolithic Iberians. we know they came from N. Africa mainly because some strontium does say so (they were actually born there!) and Nom metric Dental traits puts for instance Perdigoes populations (albeit the high Diversity) as "Europoid" but bordering North African... so. Makes sense.

Did I answers your questions?

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## MOESAN

Some pan'mediter' traits were common on the two sides of the mediterranean before the 5000 BC so it proves nothing without more details - what we have to verify is the origin of the metallurgic skills (perhaps more than ONE, I think : surely); demic attraction towards more skilled culture/economy or even slavery could explain the coming of PARTLY north-african newcomers; were they among the elites? I doubt but who know todate? What is sure is that BBs were only a kind of metallurgists among or rather aside other metallurgists, at least at the beginning, it's to say when archeologists begin to find distinctive cultural traits in Portugal.

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## Olympus Mons

> Some pan'mediter' traits were common on the two sides of the mediterranean before the 5000 BC so it proves nothing without more details - what we have to verify is the origin of the metallurgic skills (perhaps more than ONE, I think : surely); demic attraction towards more skilled culture/economy or even slavery could explain the coming of PARTLY north-african newcomers; were they among the elites? I doubt but who know todate? What is sure is that BBs were only a kind of metallurgists among or rather aside other metallurgists, at least at the beginning, it's to say when archeologists begin to find distinctive cultural traits in Portugal.



Hummm... No, no Moesan. Weird talk.
See Katie Manning Mp4 animation of North Africa disappearing people. There was no attraction. It was something like Hundreds of thousands crossing gibralter strait fleeing those aeloian winds. So that flood of people made Iberia Chalcolithic. 
What as chalcolithic Iberia? - Highly diverse and heterogenous populations, like I said, from crania morpholofy to most important Nonmetric dental traits (see J. Desideri works) showing a very homogenous late neolithic Iberia and a very heterogenous iberia chalcolithic. So, no argument anymore.

Now, buckle up. Dont expect you to believe ( and dont care). Amongst those people fleeing the birth of Sahara was a Caucasian (literal) population that previous was in El omari and Merimde and those became the Bell beakers... but that would be a long story ...

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