# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  J1 and J2

## Wilhelm

I've been reading here in Eupedia, about the spread and origins of European haplogroups , and you say of J1 :
"*The Muslim conquest of the Middle East, North Africa, and to a lower extent also to Spain and Sicily, spread J1 far beyond Arabia, creating a new Arabic world."*

But, Spain has a very low level of J1, comparable to those of Sweden, Norway , Netherlands, Iceland, Ireland, France, etc..


And then you say about J2 :
*"In Europe, J2 reaches its highest frequency in Greece (especially in Crete, Peloponese and Thrace), southern and central Italy, southern France, and southern Spain."

*But, Andalusia (Southern Spain) has only about 1.1% of J, a level comparable to Poles, Estonians, etc, very low
Andalusians :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> I've been reading here in Eupedia, about the spread and origins of European haplogroups , and you say of J1 :
> "*The Muslim conquest of the Middle East, North Africa, and to a lower extent also to Spain and Sicily, spread J1 far beyond Arabia, creating a new Arabic world."*
> 
> But, Spain has a very low level of J1, comparable to those of Sweden, Norway , Netherlands, Iceland, Ireland, France, etc..
> 
> 
> And then you say about J2 :
> *"In Europe, J2 reaches its highest frequency in Greece (especially in Crete, Peloponese and Thrace), southern and central Italy, southern France, and southern Spain."
> 
> ...


Absolutely right. Looking at Iberia as a whole, J1 and J2 is quite low. In Portugal, J1 and J2 totals 11% and 4% in Spain. By comparison, Germany is at 4.5% and Austria at 12%. Italy and Greece have, by far, the highest levels of J1 and J2 in the E.U.

This should not be surprising in that Iberians are heavily Paleolithic, particularly towards the western end of the Peninsula.

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## Maciamo

Haplogroup J is low in Spain overall (about 4%), but relatively high by European standard in Andalusia (about 14%) and Valencia (10%). These figures are based on the largest study ever conducted for Iberia (by Flores et al.)

The study gives 18% of J in Cadiz, 15.5% in Malaga, 14% in Huelva, and 11% in Sevilla and Cordoba.

Don't trust Wikipedia for Y-DNA results. It's often based on a single minor study, or even partial ones that do not cover all haplogroups.

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## Wilhelm

> Haplogroup J is low in Spain overall (about 4%), but relatively high by European standard in Andalusia (about 14%) and Valencia (10%). These figures are based on the largest study ever conducted for Iberia (by Flores et al.)
> 
> The study gives 18% of J in Cadiz, 15.5% in Malaga, 14% in Huelva, and 11% in Sevilla and Cordoba.
> 
> Don't trust Wikipedia for Y-DNA results. It's often based on a single minor study, or even partial ones that do not cover all haplogroups.


The samples of this study are ridiculous :

22 people for Huelva. 28 for Cadiz. 26 for Malaga.

As you can see in that Table, the bigger the sample is , the less are the J levels. 
If you see Seville has the highest sample with 155, and the J2 is about 5.2%

Considering from Seville to Huelva and Cadiz there are LESS than 100 km of distance, 
How is possible that J multiplies so much in such a few distance ? The answer is the size of the Sampling

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> The samples of this study are ridiculous :
> 
> 22 people for Huelva. 28 for Cadiz. 26 for Malaga.
> 
> As you can see in that Table, the bigger the sample is , the less are the J levels. 
> If you see Seville has the highest sample with 155, and the J2 is about 5.2%
> 
> Considering from Seville to Huelva and Cadiz there are LESS than 100 km of distance, 
> How is possible that J multiplies so much in such a few distance ? The answer is the size of the Sampling


I agree, the samples a far too low. Methodologically very poor.

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## dnabuff

Answer to an older post. Email from a friend couple of months ago who did research on Muhammads families. J2

The Arabic speaking people who went to the meditereanean are mostly J2 from eastern mediteranean and some J1 from Yemen area or Ghassanids christians descent.

Many of Prophet Muhammads descendants are J2. The Royal Jordanian family are J2 and so are Rabats King ( Morroco) some families from Yemen who are of Muhammads descendants ( They arrived 400 years ago ) tested and it was J2.



Muhammad cant be J1 because he was never originally from southern Arabian Peninsula he is Arab Mustaribah ( Arabised Arab ) from the north , from Abraham Ur of Chaldea and migrated towards the Hijaz areas.



J1 are mostly found in Yemen 80%, Some bedoins in the north, Ghassanids Christian families of Lebanon , Syria, Palestine and Jordan and Causacus area where its at 75%



Qahtanites and Ghassanids ( Christians Arabs from Marib Yemen now in Lebnan, Syria. Jordan and Falastine ) are mostly J1. Many Christians families in south lebanon tested and got J1 results. Many posted their results on Facebook.



These test are done by real people. Its also possible for Ghassanids to have J2 as some were migrants from north and settled with the Pre Islamic Saba people.



National Geo has more extensive studies

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## Wilhelm

Well, I still don't understand why it says J1 is important in Spain, when clearly it has a very low level, the same level as in Northern Europe
If someone cares to explain me, Im intrigued  :Good Job:

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Well, I still don't understand why it says J1 is important in Spain, when clearly it has a very low level, the same level as in Northern Europe
> If someone cares to explain me, Im intrigued


The statement you refer to is obviously incorrect. There is, unfortunately, a lot of garbage material published these days. All credible genetic studies clearly show that J1 and J2 is low in Spain and all of Iberia. Finito!

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## Maciamo

> Well, I still don't understand why it says J1 is important in Spain, when clearly it has a very low level, the same level as in Northern Europe
> If someone cares to explain me, Im intrigued


J1 reaches 3 to 4% of the population in Andalusia and Valencia. I have edited the page on European Haplogroups indicating "southern Spain" instead of "Spain", as J1 is indeed almost inexistent in the rest of Spain (except Galicia).

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## Wilhelm

I have seen in the table, the J1 of Spain has changed from 0 to 1

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## Maciamo

> I have seen in the table, the J1 of Spain has changed from 0 to 1


Yes, I have revised the number from various sources. The J1 column was added after the percentages were calculated for other haplogroups, and I visibly forgot to change it for Spain.

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## Spaniard

> Yes, I have revised the number from various sources. The J1 column was added after the percentages were calculated for other haplogroups, and I visibly forgot to change it for Spain.


I dont feel that is correct!. If we are talking about countries as a whole then we are not talking about regions at all!. So then if Austria has a 12% J1 on average, I easily suppose and infere there should be some austrian regions with much higher percentages of J1, even higher than 20% or so!. Why arent you talking about them, but you talk about southern spanish regions with lower percentages instead?. Are you trying to imply something I dont get?

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## Spaniard

> J1 reaches 3 to 4% of the population in Andalusia and Valencia. I have edited the page on European Haplogroups indicating "southern Spain" instead of "Spain", as J1 is indeed almost inexistent in the rest of Spain (except Galicia).


I dont feel that is correct!. If we are talking about countries as a whole then we are not talking about regions at all!. So then if Austria has a 12% J1 on average, I easily suppose and infere there should be some austrian regions with much higher percentages of J1, even higher than 20% or so!. Why arent you talking about them, but you talk about southern spanish regions with lower percentages instead?. Are you trying to imply something about spaniards I dont get?

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## Wilhelm

Yes, that's true. I think is only in south spain were J1 is found (and very low !!) 
But Spain as a whole, I don't know

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> I dont feel that is correct!. If we are talking about countries as a whole then we are not talking about regions at all!. So then if Austria has a 12% J1 on average, I easily suppose and infere there should be some austrian regions with much higher percentages of J1, even higher than 20% or so!. Why arent you talking about them, but you talk about southern spanish regions with lower percentages instead?. Are you trying to imply something about spaniards I dont get?


Excellent point. Time for clarification...

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Yes, that's true. I think is only in south spain were J1 is found (and very low !!) 
> But Spain as a whole, I don't know


J1 is very low throughout Spain, lower than many other Western European countries.

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## Spaniard

> J1 is very low throughout Spain, lower than many other Western European countries.


Yes, right. Thats the reason why I cant understand why anyone should be pointing out such negiglible figure under the label of "southern Spain" (It really isnt: its only in SOME southern regions, not in ALL southern regions), and not doing the samething in other countries with some regions with much higher J1 percentages. 

In short: Why is so important to remark this un-remarkable fact only in the case of Spain, and not in the case of countries with remarkable J1 percentages?. Is there a compulsive need to always try to link Spain to anything that sounds to arabs and the middle east?

Just an innocent question, nothing else than that....  :Innocent:

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Yes, right. Thats the reason why I cant understand why anyone should be pointing out such negiglible figure under the label of "southern Spain" (It really isnt: its only in SOME southern regions, not in ALL southern regions), and not doing the samething in other countries with some regions with much higher J1 percentages. 
> 
> In short: Why is so important to remark this un-remarkable fact only in the case of Spain, and not in the case of countries with remarkable J1 percentages?. Is there a compulsive need to always try to link Spain to anything that sounds to arabs and the middle east?
> 
> Just an innocent question, nothing else than that....



I think any reasonably informed person knows the answer... :Wink:

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## Spaniard

> I think any reasonably informed person knows the answer...


Sure, my question is not so innocent after all!  :Good Job:

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## Spaniard

> I think any reasonably informed person knows the answer...


Moreover if we consider that genetics results go constantly and stubbornly against the preconceptions and prejudices of racist people with an agenda trying to always link spaniards to arabs or moors.  :Laughing:

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Moreover if we consider that genetics results go constantly and stubbornly against the preconceptions and prejudices of racist people with an agenda trying to always link spaniards to arabs or moors.


Such notions obtain from intellectually and socially challenged (sometimes mentally disturbed) types who, in the end, will be nothing more than part of the garbage heap of history. 

Proper, methodologically correct genetic research DOES NOT LIE.  False racial / ethnic stereotypes sometimes die hard, but they ALWAYS die in the face of scientific fact.

Again, any methodologically suspect or tendentious genetic data should be removed from this site or any site that holds claim to being a platform for serious discussion.

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## Wilhelm

> J*1 reaches 3 to 4% of the population in Andalusia and Valencia.* I have edited the page on European Haplogroups indicating "southern Spain" instead of "Spain", as J1 is indeed almost inexistent in the rest of Spain (except Galicia).


hmmm.. Andalusia has 1.56% of J1 and Valencia 0% according to this :
http://iberianroots.com/statistics/i...peninsula.html

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## Happy man

> Answer to an older post. Email from a friend couple of months ago who did research on Muhammads families. J2
> 
> The Arabic speaking people who went to the meditereanean are mostly J2 from eastern mediteranean and some J1 from Yemen area or Ghassanids christians descent.
> 
> Many of Prophet Muhammads descendants are J2. The Royal Jordanian family are J2 and so are Rabats King ( Morroco) some families from Yemen who are of Muhammads descendants ( They arrived 400 years ago ) tested and it was J2.
> 
> 
> 
> Muhammad cant be J1 because he was never originally from southern Arabian Peninsula he is Arab Mustaribah ( Arabised Arab ) from the north , from Abraham Ur of Chaldea and migrated towards the Hijaz areas.
> ...


* Could you give me your evidence or any one about this, please?*

*I am looking for the answer from any one.*

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## Semitic Duwa

> * Could you give me your evidence or any one about this, please?*
> 
> *I am looking for the answer from any one.*



Same here.

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## Happy man

_Could you give me your evidence or any one about this, please?

I am looking for the answer from any one._

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## Happy man

> Answer to an older post. Email from a friend couple of months ago who did research on Muhammads families. J2
> 
> The Arabic speaking people who went to the meditereanean are mostly J2 from eastern mediteranean and some J1 from Yemen area or Ghassanids christians descent.
> 
> Many of Prophet Muhammads descendants are J2. The Royal Jordanian family are J2 and so are Rabats King ( Morroco) some families from Yemen who are of Muhammads descendants ( They arrived 400 years ago ) tested and it was J2.
> 
> 
> 
> Muhammad cant be J1 because he was never originally from southern Arabian Peninsula he is Arab Mustaribah ( Arabised Arab ) from the north , from Abraham Ur of Chaldea and migrated towards the Hijaz areas.
> ...


 Look brother, I believe you and I have an evidence abot your talk. However, I need your evidence or any one need to be fair with himself befor the pople.

My regards to all the honest and respected people
HAppy man.

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## Sniper

who told you that Muhammeds families, J2?? this is a false statement.. 


J1 is the correct answer..


Actually J2 are mixed races based on Noah's son (HAM)! So, they're not considered as a Semitic... J1 is the only Semitic HaploG'.


You'd love to read this article: 
"Haplogroup J and the Jewish Cohen Modal Haplotype" by Ishaq Al-Sulaimani (Isaac David Solomon)
just google it. and google the writer's name to take a look of his result: "Qaraims" website.


you've stated that: 
1-Many of Prophet Muhammads descendants are J2".


-Well, I'm sorry to say that they're feigned from the beginning and they know that and we know it too since along time.




2-The Royal Jordanian family are J2 and so are Rabats King ( Morroco) some families from Yemen who are of Muhammads descendants ( They arrived 400 years ago ) tested and it was J2."


-if so, tell the both of them that I really feel sorry for them.




in fact, we know that a lotta families in Saudi Arabia and other places (including Israel) were shocked because of "J2" result, well, your matching invalidity is not our problem. You have to accept the fact. I really love "DNA" not because of our result "we know who we are without DNA's test", but I love it because it has been "knocked" a heavy burden, if you know what I mean!


if these links weren't enough, then CONTACT ME if you wanna know the real "descendants of Muhammad", (you know who they are) no doubt!! so stop spreading these lies around and get a real!


and by the way "you should stop editing Wikipedia too".


I'm proud of my J1c3d & you should be proud being a "J2" or anything else, just like everybody, all of haplogroups are cool :) & you know that Adam is the father of human.

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## Ponto

Why does J1 bring out the idiots and bigots?

J1 is my haplogroup. Personally I find everything I read so far to utter crap. Keep your religions in your mesjids, churches, temples and homes. I don't want to know the rantings of uneducated tribal peoples which so people think are holy and God inspired. Honestly, Adam, naturalized Arabs, true Arabs, sons of Israel, Moses, Qahtanites, Abraham....what a load of garbage. If you can't prove the origins of haplogroups, then stop the BS.

The thread was started by one of those mad Spaniards trying to make himself acceptable to Northern Europeans. Those folks have a lot of inferiority. R1b does not make you European or Paleolithic. Aging of haplogroups is impossible at the moment and without actual ancient dna from European humans dated to the Paleolithic to Mesolithic, 40,000 to 10,000 years old showing haplogroup R1b, you are just frothing at the mouth like rabid dogs. Give us the proof or shut up.

You don't need Arabs or Middle Eastern folk to have J1 in Europe. The native peoples of North Africa have had J1 in their populations long before Muhammad or any other man from Arabia was born. Even those Canary Islanders who had no means of leaving the Canary Islands as they destroyed all their seacraft had J1 in their populations. Maybe those reports are false but they haven't been proven so yet. As far as haplogroup studies go, low numbers tested is normal as dna testing is expensive, and consent for collecting dna samples is hard to get. Spain, Portugal, parts of France, Sicily, Sardinia, Crete and parts of mainland Italy were all affected by the North African Muslim push into Europe. Some of them stayed on even after the expulsions and the Inquisitions. Finding J1 in Europe does not need any Yemenis, Saudis, Jordanians or other Arabs to account for it.

Anyhow, what makes J2 so acceptable? Or G2 or E1b1b? They all evolved in the Middle East not Europe. And what makes haplogroup I European when it is so close to haplogroup J? Until those old Europeans from the Paleolithic to current times provide us with datable, verifiable haplogroups, you are just crapping on.

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## sparkey

> J1 is my haplogroup. Personally I find everything I read so far to utter crap. Keep your religions in your mesjids, churches, temples and homes.


I've noticed a similar trend. Discussion of J1 always seems to be loaded, I suppose because Jews and Arabs carry it in high frequency. Its current spread is probably largely Neolithic in origin, though, I suspect.




> The thread was started by one of those mad Spaniards trying to make himself acceptable to Northern Europeans. Those folks have a lot of inferiority.


Please, let's avoid getting into this tired discussion again.




> R1b does not make you European or Paleolithic. Aging of haplogroups is impossible at the moment and without actual ancient dna from European humans dated to the Paleolithic to Mesolithic, 40,000 to 10,000 years old showing haplogroup R1b, you are just frothing at the mouth like rabid dogs. Give us the proof or shut up.


STR dating is becoming more reliable. And even though it will always have large error bars, the idea that R1b L11+ is Paleolithic is untenable, as such a date for it falls outside even generous error bars.

I still bet that the current distribution of R1b L11+ is entirely due to post-Neolithic (Bronze Age, Iron Age, Classical Age, and so on) expansions.




> And what makes haplogroup I European when it is so close to haplogroup J?


It has no known subclades datable to 6000 years ago that have their centers of diversity outside of Europe, and in fact has barely any in Eastern Europe or along the Mediterranean. That pins it to Western and Central Europe, dating to the time they split from each other (over 20,000 years ago). Obviously, that isn't the case for its brother clade, J, which it probably split from in Western Asia somewhere.

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## LeBrok

[QUOTE=sparkey;393891]I've noticed a similar trend. Discussion of J1 always seems to be loaded, I suppose because Jews and Arabs carry it in high frequency. Its current spread is probably largely Neolithic in origin, though, I suspect.
[QUOTE]

I agree that J1 did most of its moves in Neolithic. When we look at this map below, it shows hot spots on Arabian Peninsula, they are also the diversity centers.



Looking at the strongest locations, in sub Sahara and Arabian Peninsula, it makes me think that maybe their success came at the end of ice age and early Neolithic when these regions where greener and moist, excellent for pastoralists.
The diversity and frequency centers, might tell, us that J1 was most successful when connected to the sea. They could have shifted to sea faring peoples in mid Neolithic. First expended through Red Sea, then spread to Mediterranean.
The biggest density of J1 around Mediterranean match roughly Phoenician colonies. Greek colonies contain less J1. The matches or mismatches are not that precise though, therefor it might mean that main spread of J1 around Mediterranean happened before antiquity.

I don't think J1 was much agricultural, caring first farming into Europe. Actually J1 drops sharply when approaching Fertile Crescent from Arabian Peninsula. Surely it is still strong, but it could have dispersed to the North later. J1 is not continuous, and missing in many fertile places in Europe. If we skip 0.5-1 percentile shade then it exists only by the Mediterranean Sea, except France. It is not a very good candidate for early farmers.
 
I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?

Light shade in Central Europe from Germany to Belarus is a mark of huge Jewish community living there for 1000 years, numbered at around 8 million before WWII.

To my understanding, J1 in Europe is Neolithic sea faring people, some might be Caucasian and Anatolian, and some is surely Jewish.

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## Sniper

> Why does J1 bring out the idiots and bigots?


-You've said that your HG is J1!! so, you have answered your question yourself..




> J1 is my haplogroup. Personally I find everything I read so far to utter crap. Keep your religions in your mesjids, churches, temples and homes. I don't want to know the rantings of uneducated tribal peoples which so people think are holy and God inspired. Honestly, Adam, naturalized Arabs, true Arabs, sons of Israel, Moses, Qahtanites, Abraham....what a load of garbage. If you can't prove the origins of haplogroups, then stop the BS.


Nah! You don't have it  :Useless: !!!! Yup, so obvious, not even close  :Laughing: ... 

-Well, you don't have to agree with everythin' you read.... And about the religions, I think that religions are something very special, and your intervention into others believe is disgraceful behavior, and if you're an atheist or somthin' else it is up to you, just please stay away from somebody's privacy!! .. that was a good advice! trust me  :Good Job: ..... And about uneducated people who think that they are holy,, well, I don't know about Jews,,, but I'd say this is not true if you're talklin' about Muslims, they never think about these kinda thoughts, they don't ever think this way, as well as its a forbidden thing in Islam and there is no difference between mankind, the only difference is the power of faith and piety ... This is the reality .. (i.e) if you're a son of one of the prophets, but you don't pray,, well then this will not save you from the punishment of God, even if you are the prophet's son .. read the story of Prophet Noah,,, God has saved him from the flood, but didn't saved his son because he didn't believed in God,,, he went up to a mountain in order to save his life but God has drowned him... See?? I wish that was clear..

-You have to know that I have been talking in the old post about those people who are trying to change the facts and trying to mislead people through some rumors that the HG of Abraham is not J1... that's all.. And wasn't for any other purpose..





> The thread was started by one of those mad Spaniards trying to make himself acceptable to Northern Europeans. Those folks have a lot of inferiority. R1b does not make you European or Paleolithic. Aging of haplogroups is impossible at the moment and without actual ancient dna from European humans dated to the Paleolithic to Mesolithic, 40,000 to 10,000 years old showing haplogroup R1b, you are just frothing at the mouth like rabid dogs. Give us the proof or shut up.


- Oops!! too bad to read.. I really don't know about ya thoughts!!! What kinda dichotomy ya sufferin' man?? What kinda hate ya spreadin' around? Who could lives with this kinda human??!! All I can say: "shame on you".... Do you know?? Anyone read these load of **** could understand it in the bad way!! you have just proved that Europeans are racist.. I know they are not,, but you're lack of upscale style of speech was the reason, and that hate inside you also has got you lost!! And you're no longer aware of what you writin' ....... Enough of retard ideas..... People are moving forward while ya returning back to the "rock bottom" !!!





> You don't need Arabs or Middle Eastern folk to have J1 in Europe. The native peoples of North Africa have had J1 in their populations long before Muhammad or any other man from Arabia was born. Even those Canary Islanders who had no means of leaving the Canary Islands as they destroyed all their seacraft had J1 in their populations. Maybe those reports are false but they haven't been proven so yet. As far as haplogroup studies go, low numbers tested is normal as dna testing is expensive, and consent for collecting dna samples is hard to get. Spain, Portugal, parts of France, Sicily, Sardinia, Crete and parts of mainland Italy were all affected by the North African Muslim push into Europe. Some of them stayed on even after the expulsions and the Inquisitions. Finding J1 in Europe does not need any Yemenis, Saudis, Jordanians or other Arabs to account for it.


-Should I say that Arabs don't need ya either!!?? 
-Nothin' new or useful of these!! Everybody know that HGs can be found among all of people & everywhere,,, so, I think It's a good opportunity for people to know their veterans relatives,,,, and I really think these is a good idea to spread the love among the people and that would gets them closer to each other instead of the "repulsion". ------> "as ya doing bro"!!!  :Petrified: 





> Anyhow, what makes J2 so acceptable? Or G2 or E1b1b? They all evolved in the Middle East not Europe. And what makes haplogroup I European when it is so close to haplogroup J? Until those old Europeans from the Paleolithic to current times provide us with datable, verifiable haplogroups, you are just crapping on.


plaplaplap  :Angry: 

-Again you're outta luck.... Simply, all of them are acceptable, especially if you and those guys like you are goin' to stop spreading hate among people against a certain HG!!

Peace out!!

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## Sniper

Thanks Mr. LeBrok.. I think that this map has become outdated and need to update... I've found these a map on the genetic atlas's website... Go to -----> the genetic atlas . com/World_Y-DNA . htm

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## zanipolo

classifying a HG with a religion is 100% wrong oops greater then 100%.............its a waste of time discussing this.

Do you think jews or muslims do genetic tests to determine if you can be a jew or muslim if you are found to be J1 ..............lol...what idiots.

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## zanipolo

> Thanks Mr. LeBrok.. I think that this map has become outdated and need to update... I've found these a map on the genetic atlas's website... Go to -----> the genetic atlas . com/World_Y-DNA . htm


what a rubbish site that is ...........yarn plain and inaccurate.
Do you think you can classify genetics by nationality and not by tribal culture ...........thats what that site is a national site on genetics which is purely rubbish

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## Sniper

> what a rubbish site that is ...........yarn plain and inaccurate.
> Do you think you can classify genetics by nationality and not by tribal culture ...........thats what that site is a national site on genetics which is purely rubbish


nope.. not classifyin' genetics, who said that?... I just found it in the internet and then share it with ya here!! 

Anyway you can take a look on the J1 (Y-DNA) article in Wikipedia,, 46.0% among Cohanim, 72.6% among Yemeni and 40.1% among Saudi according to "Abu Amero et al" & "Cadenas et al (2008)" studies..!!

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## Sniper

> nope.. not classifyin' genetics, who said that?... I just found it in the internet and then share it with ya here!! 
> 
> Anyway you can take a look on the J1 (Y-DNA) article in Wikipedia,, according 46.0% among Cohanim, 72.6% among Yemeni and40.1% among Saudi according to "Abu Amero et al" & "Cadenas et al (2008)" studies..!!


and I think that percentages were a sufficient... yeah seems a big amount of HG J1 among them... but for sure I'm not talkin' about any kinda genetic's classify..

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## Semitic Duwa

J1's highest diversity is to be found in southeast Anatolia, it thus does not fit with the higest frequencies we report for this haplogroup.

If anything, J1c3d accounts for the majority of all J1 and spread with Semitic languages as suggested by Chiaroni's 2009 paper among others:

"[...] haplogroup J1e data suggest an advance of the Neolithic
period agriculturalists/pastoralists into the arid regions of Arabia from
the Fertile Crescent and support an association with a Semitic
linguistic common denominator."

Remember, other lineages such as J1c3c and J1c2 probably followed J1c3d.
Other papers (Hassan et al, Fregel et al) suggest that J1 could also have been present among early afroasiatic speakers.

The problem is that many people associate J1c3d with J1 as a whole. This is a gross simplification as other clades (such as the new Z1842 clade, a future J1d?) have nothing to do with the spread associated to this clade.

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## Sniper

> J1's highest diversity is to be found in southeast Anatolia, it thus does not fit with the higest frequencies we report for this haplogroup.
> 
> If anything, J1c3d accounts for the majority of all J1 and spread with Semitic languages as suggested by Chiaroni's 2009 paper among others:
> 
> "[...] haplogroup J1e data suggest an advance of the Neolithic
> period agriculturalists/pastoralists into the arid regions of Arabia from
> the Fertile Crescent and support an association with a Semitic
> linguistic common denominator."
> 
> ...



Yeah you're right, but I don't see it a big problem at this time because the majority of those people's result has appeared & in most cases, their results were compatible with their surnames, relatives & connections etc, especially the J1c3d.. And I think the other J1 branches still containing a little groups only, which could be defined soon when the new mutations already came out..

You might find many results which containing an important stuff!! If we take this clade (Z1842) as an example, personally I think it could be the Assyrian's exclusive SNP, because it has been found in their results.. You can find it in the (Aramaic DNA Project - Y-DNA SNP), kit#(187962).. 

But as you know we can't confirm it as the Assyrian's especial clade at this time,,, only after several positive results...


Glad to know ya Mr. Duwa.. :)

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## Semitic Duwa

> Yeah you're right, but I don't see it a big problem at this time because the majority of those people's result has appeared & in most cases, their results were compatible with their surnames, relatives & connections etc, especially the J1c3d.. And I think the other J1 branches still containing a little groups only, which could be defined soon when the new mutations already came out..
> 
> You might find many results which containing an important stuff!! If we take this clade (Z1842) as an example, personally I think it could be the Assyrian's exclusive SNP, because it has been found in their results.. You can find it in the (Aramaic DNA Project - Y-DNA SNP), kit#(187962).. 
> 
> But as you know we can't confirm it as the Assyrian's especial clade at this time,,, only after several positive results...
> 
> 
> Glad to know ya Mr. Duwa.. :)


Z1842 is common to east anatolians (Assyrians, Kurds, etc) and Nakho-Dagestanian speakers, so it would be best defined as an "Alarodian" clade.
It confirms Caucasian words in non-semitic branches afroasiatic and their attribution to J1 in a sense, even if no paper says so for the moment.

Glad to know you as well Sniper.

----------


## Sniper

> Z1842 is common to east anatolians (Assyrians, Kurds, etc) and Nakho-Dagestanian speakers, so it would be best defined as an "Alarodian" clade.
> It confirms Caucasian words in non-semitic branches afroasiatic and their attribution to J1 in a sense, even if no paper says so for the moment.
> 
> Glad to know you as well Sniper.




So, how about (Bnei Yahya project)??? the clade L816 seems bigger than expectations, so that's why they still with no further definition than (J1c3)... I've noticed that the most of recent new clades were close to (L147.1) line, so most of them are useless,,, it has been tested and appeared positive for the most of branches,,, it's really disspointin'....

----------


## Templar

Southern Europeans seriously need to stop having an inferiority complex. Ancient Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians, Lydians, and possibly also the people of the Indus valley civilization; were all olive-skinned, dark-haired, and dark-eyed.

----------


## Templar

And had typical Mediterranean facial features.

----------


## Alan

The Haplogroup J1 is much older as any Arab ethnicity and originated somewhere between Zagros and Taurus mountain. Here is a Kurdish guy from West Iran/Zagros mountains who belongs to this Haplogroup J1. 

53535.jpgzddb7od7.jpg

----------


## Sniper

> Southern Europeans seriously need to stop having an inferiority complex. Ancient Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians, Lydians, and possibly also the people of the Indus valley civilization; were all olive-skinned, dark-haired, and dark-eyed.




Holy GOD!! I hate those guys, tryin' to insult other people!!! whoever they are, Europeans or Arabs or Asians or even black!!

How do you know that they're sufferin' an inferiority complex? 

you found yourself able to describe those nations that way!!!!


Don't you know that every nation have the right to be proud of their glory??? Don't you know that they have a huge civilization and spendin' a millions of books will not be enough to write about their great history?? You have to ask your history teacher about their history, don't tell me that your teacher is the ones who had learned you these kinda crap!!

I bet you don't like to read these part, "most of the western writers authors have written thousands of books about those noble people... "



They know who they are and from where they had come, they are not waitin' for you to confirm their history or to explain them about their own history.. 

If those guys just wanna show others that they are better than them, well I have alotta things that they don't wish to hear, witch will make them feel they are nothin'.. these aren't good... 

In fact, no 1 sufferin' the inferiority complex exceptin' those guys who always can be found tryin' to throw their illness on others... This is the right definition of those retarded guys, and they aren't representin' their nations, they are only representin' their disgustin' thoughts & their dirty intentions... This is what most of people know about those filthy "SKUNKS".... 

usually these kinda statements come out from the "2nd hand people" if you know what I mean!
(with no history)

Yep

they have nothing to be pride of!!!






Arrogance is a weed that grows mostly on a DUNGHILL!!



 :Good Job: 


AGREE!!

----------


## Sniper

> The Haplogroup J1 is much older as any Arab ethnicity and originated somewhere between Zagros and Taurus mountain. Here is a Kurdish guy from West Iran/Zagros mountains who belongs to this Haplogroup J1. 
> 
> 53535.jpgzddb7od7.jpg





Hello Alan

I think "J2" is the common HG to that places more than J1

Anyway,, the look it depends on the maternal as well..

for example:
If the father carried HG J1 and he married to an African woman,, 

the son could be looks like the Africans,,

in this case no doubt that their son has the HG J1, just like his father but with a different shape.. Because of his MaMa 


and then their son got married ...... and so on,, etc...

----------


## Semitic Duwa

> So, how about (Bnei Yahya project)??? the clade L816 seems bigger than expectations, so that's why they still with no further definition than (J1c3)... I've noticed that the most of recent new clades were close to (L147.1) line, so most of them are useless,,, it has been tested and appeared positive for the most of branches,,, it's really disspointin'....


It looks like a private SNP to be honest.

----------


## Sniper

> It looks like a private SNP to be honest.


it's L860 if so.. In facts alotta mutations are really useless!!

----------


## Templar

> How do you know that they're sufferin' an inferiority complex? 
> 
> you found yourself able to describe those nations that way!!!!


I was saying that they should be proud of their unique Mediterranean traits. No offence, but if you took what I wrote and interpreted as if I was offending them, then your English skills are seriously lacking.

----------


## Sniper

> I was saying that they should be proud of their unique Mediterranean traits. No offence, but if you took what I wrote and interpreted as if I was offending them, then your English skills are seriously lacking.


*Southern Europeans seriously need to stop having an inferiority complex*

no Templar not you.. That post wasn't about you..... Generally, is about those racists.. Like "PONTO".. 

I only took the opportunity to ADD that ...

----------


## jjmuneer1

> Hello Alan
> 
> I think "J2" is the common HG to that places more than J1
> 
> Anyway,, the look it depends on the maternal as well..
> 
> for example:
> If the father carried HG J1 and he married to an African woman,, 
> 
> ...


What do you mean?

----------


## jjmuneer1

> Hello Alan
> 
> I think "J2" is the common HG to that places more than J1
> 
> Anyway,, the look it depends on the maternal as well..
> 
> for example:
> If the father carried HG J1 and he married to an African woman,, 
> 
> ...


Both his parents are Kurdish, and from same clan.

----------


## Sniper

I mean that skin color has nothing to do with HG!

----------


## Alan

> I mean that skin color has nothing to do with HG!


That was also my point, thats why I posted him. He belongs to an J1 lineage which is different from J1c3d to which most Semites belong to.

----------


## jjmuneer1

> I mean that skin color has nothing to do with HG!


(forget what I said here)
You were saying J1 is semitic? Not true his J1 is non-semitic, probably from the caucasus. Actually there was another Fayli Kurd tested in Kermanshah area and he also got J1. Not to say J2 isn't high, but Kermanshahi Kurds pretty close nitted tribes.

----------


## jjmuneer1

> That was also my point, thats why I posted him. He belongs to an J1 lineage which is different from J1c3d to which most Semites belong to.


Do you think it is from the east Caucasus?

----------


## Alan

> Do you think it is from the east Caucasus?


possible another possibility is that its native to Zagros.

----------


## Sniper

> That was also my point, thats why I posted him. He belongs to an J1 lineage which is different from J1c3d to which most Semites belong to



Nope! In this case your theory is wrong. Why??? because the J1c3d descended from J1, So it is supposed to be the same color,,,, exceptin' the marriage from other ethnic group, well in this case yes the color could be different. This is what I mean!!

----------


## Sniper

> (forget what I said here)
> You were saying J1 is semitic? Not true his J1 is non-semitic, probably from the caucasus. Actually there was another Fayli Kurd tested in Kermanshah area and he also got J1. Not to say J2 isn't high, but Kermanshahi Kurds pretty close nitted tribes.


J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ;) ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)

The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How? 

J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)... 

Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...

Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. .. 

Anyway there may be some little differences but doesn't affect at all.

Note: PBUH = Peace Be Upon Him.. & if the last letter is T= Peace Be Upon Them :)

Good Night..

----------


## jjmuneer1

> J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ;) ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)
> 
> The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How? 
> 
> J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)... 
> 
> Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...
> 
> Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. .. 
> ...


So his J1 is semitic? He just recieved J1 as his HG from familytreeDNA. What about Dagestinis who have high frequencies of J1?

----------


## Sniper

> So his J1 is semitic? He just recieved J1 as his HG from familytreeDNA. What about Dagestinis who have high frequencies of J1?


Yep! he could be a semitic especially if J1-M267 -P58..

But in fact it's (J1*) in Dagestan, star means HG still without definition, like M267, L321 etc.... but they'd drop it down when they find the clades. I think the marker 388=13 in some Dagestanis & YCAII=19-22 .. I also remember I've read about some several results belong to the Dagestanis, but were on HG J2... 

You can contact this project and ask them about everythin', or join them, they'd love to guide you.

Have a good night Muneer :) !!!

----------


## Alan

> J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ;) ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)
> 
> The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How? 
> 
> J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)... 
> 
> Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...
> 
> Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. .. 
> ...


 it seems you are somehow a little confused, None of those Haplogroups are "semitic" in origin. When these Haplogroups evolved there was no today known ethnicity. Haplogroup J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people but it doesnt make it specifically semitic. Only if a Haplogroup is signed with a * on it, Like you said J1 is the father of J1c3d but it developed somewhere between the zagros and Taurus mountains and is not semitic in origin. He could be anything from J1b (which most Kurdish J1 belong to) to J1c3 (which evolved in central Mesopotamia). J1c3d this specific mutation is rare among Kurds.

----------


## Yetos

> J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ;) ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)
> 
> The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How? 
> 
> J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)... 
> 
> Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...
> 
> Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. .. 
> ...


What? the most funny I ever heard, 
Abraham sons?

----------


## Sniper

> it seems you are somehow a little confused, None of those Haplogroups are "semitic" in origin. When these Haplogroups evolved there was no today known ethnicity. Haplogroup J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people but it doesnt make it specifically semitic. Only if a Haplogroup is signed with a * on it, Like you said J1 is the father of J1c3d but it developed somewhere between the zagros and Taurus mountains and is not semitic in origin. He could be anything from J1b (which most Kurdish J1 belong to) to J1c3 (which evolved in central Mesopotamia). J1c3d this specific mutation is rare among Kurds.



Ok then,

Why the HG J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people? 

Please answer this question Alan!

----------


## Sniper

> What? the most funny I ever heard, 
> Abraham sons?


I'm really glad because I entertain you!! :)

----------


## Alan

> Ok then,
> 
> 
> Why the HG J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people? 
> 
> Please answer this question Alan!



founder effect? endogamy? You can associate J1c3d with semitic people like I said but this doesnt make it semitic at all and even less J1 as a whole. I had the impression you were trying to convince us that J1 as a whole is semitic. This is as logical as saying R1b is Irish just because they got some 70-80% of it. Just a note the frequency of J1 is higher among Dargins as it is among any semitic people and J1 is much more diverse in the fertile crescent/East Anatolia as it is among any semitic speakers. 

My friend, the thing what I am trying to tell you is that Haplogroups have no ethnicity but what is true, is that J1c3d is associated with semitic people what is alright. However you gave JJmuneer the impression as if it is most likely that the J1 found among this Kurd belongs to this specific branch which is rather unlikely because most J1 among Kurds is J1b and some J1c3 (2-3%). J1c3d is very rare among Kurds just for one reason you should actually know very well. People in West Asia are patriarchal and its always women who became part of the ethnicity of their husband. Means if there was ever a significant mixing between Kurds, Turks, Iranians or Arabs it would be mostly visible in their mt- and not yDNA.

----------


## LeBrok

> Southern Europeans seriously need to stop having an inferiority complex. Ancient Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians, Lydians, and possibly also the people of the Indus valley civilization; were all olive-skinned, dark-haired, and dark-eyed.


Templar, you better make sure you quote post or posts in relation to your statement, otherwise it doesn't make sense in light of recent conversations. Without context it looks like you wanted to start another crusade to save "lost soles". Just make sure your writing and meaning is transparent.



To all:
This subject might be touchy for some people, let's keep cool heads, and treat all with respect, like your friends.

----------


## Sniper

> founder effect? endogamy? You can associate J1c3d with semitic people like I said but this doesnt make it semitic at all and even less J1 as a whole.


Obviously you're speakin' about the semitic languages!! while I was talkin' about our semitic serial ancestors which has been maintained and carefully documented by our ancestors for a thousands of years.. Alan, I know you don't know much about some facts & some strict traditions, it's a serious matter never accept any kinda jokes.. You may tell me that you knew some Arabs but they were not the same, well yeah, there' alotta of them, without "typical tribal ancestors" as we call 'em.. In somehow it's an offensive word, you might to call that a racism. But we never mention it ethier as well as it is a forbidden religiously & morally.. Anyway, you can find many of them have the ancient tribe's name (because they lived among the ancient one since a long time),, so what should you do to identify the anchent one from the false (without askin')? Well, if you wanna identify them there is 1 thing, it is the "marriage"!! the ancient tribe wouldn't allow that whatever happened.. Even if they look as a brothers and the same but the marriage is impossible..

By the way, the J1c3d (z644...) do you know they belong to one of the most power full & important Arabian tribe which called (Al-Azd)?.. They'v found it in some hispanic!! 
We know about them..Their ancestors were the leaders of the armies of old veterans in Andalusia. They're the foundations of civilization of Andalusia.. Some of them have been captured and imprisoned, and since then they never comeback. Funny when they come to ask in the some forums they're so intresting to go far as they could from the Arabian branches!! It's funny & so sad at the same time I swear... If they really know what kinda honor to belong to this tribe they won't even try to run away.. Every body wish to be an Azdi... (Azd = the Lions).. 

They are undoubtedly the descendants of those heroes.. Just google it, (Al-Azd tribe), they're the kings of Sheba kingdom.. Many books talk about this great tribe...

I'd like to test the clade as soon.  :Good Job: 

Sorry for this long paragraph, but I just wanna make sure that you got it. I hope so!!





> I had the impression you were trying to convince us that J1 as a whole is semitic. This is as logical as saying R1b is Irish just because they got some 70-80% of it. Just a note the frequency of J1 is higher among Dargins as it is among any semitic people and J1 is much more diverse in the fertile crescent/East Anatolia as it is among any semitic speakers.



Nah, not really :) .. If you won't believe that! then you don't have to anyway.. Maybe there are many branches,, and for sure Chem had many sons.. But we know our great grand father, his name is "Arphaxad".  :Wary: 






> My friend, the thing what I am trying to tell you is that Haplogroups have no ethnicity but what is true, is that J1c3d is associated with semitic people what is alright. However you gave JJmuneer the impression as if it is most likely that the J1 found among this Kurd belongs to this specific branch which is rather unlikely because most J1 among Kurds is J1b and some J1c3 (2-3%). J1c3d is very rare among Kurds just for one reason you should actually know very well. People in West Asia are patriarchal and its always women who became part of the ethnicity of their husband. Means if there was ever a significant mixing between Kurds, Turks, Iranians or Arabs it would be mostly visible in their mt- and not yDNA.



Yeees HG have no ethnicity.. but as I told above.. there are many sons of Chem. 5 or 6 'm not sure... But any other J's result cant be branched from (Arphaxad), just J1c3d.. Because his descendants are the most known people on the face of earth, with all do of respect of all people. 

But all of them are under the supposed mutation & 
this can't be just a coincidence.. So how can we get another branch of people into Eber (PBUH) or Arphaxad's line?? You're talkin' about impossible thing Alan.. Otherwise we are takin' them away from their line? Or we are sayin' that their ancestors is not true? All of this ideas are wrong & can't be fit..

About mt- or Autosomal, family finder, it will show you some percentages, (e.g) you are American 56% and European 44% etc, but I think it isn't a unique as a parental HG + unique mutation.

Have a good day my friend...

----------


## Templar

> Templar, you better make sure you quote post or posts in relation to your statement, otherwise it doesn't make sense in light of recent conversations. Without context it looks like you wanted to start another crusade to save "lost soles". Just make sure your writing and meaning is transparent.
> 
> 
> 
> To all:
> This subject might be touchy for some people, let's keep cool heads, and treat all with respect, like your friends.


Its just annoying seeing Southern Europeans quote blonde hair and light eye rates. But maybe they are just trying to disprove ignorant stereotypes about them _all_ looking dark.

----------


## Knovas

Well, it's also annoying to see you, Templar, excluding yourself from Southern Europeans, when it's essentially what you probably are, like it or not. The little data I've seen at 23andme indicates a much higher simillarity with Southern Europe regarding Bosnians. We already have available data belonging to sorrounding groups, and their West Asian + Med scores are really significant, so you should take care on your comments.

Most people are proud of their own origins. End of discussion.

----------


## LeBrok

> Yeees HG have no ethnicity.. but as I told above.. there are many sons of Chem. 5 or 6 'm not sure... But any other J's result cant be branched from (Arphaxad), just J1c3d.. Because his descendants are the most known people on the face of earth, with all do of respect of all people. 
> 
> But all of them are under the supposed mutation & 
> this can't be just a coincidence.. So how can we get another branch of people into Eber (PBUH) or Arphaxad's line?? You're talkin' about impossible thing Alan.. Otherwise we are takin' them away from their line? Or we are sayin' that their ancestors is not true? All of this ideas are wrong & can't be fit..


The world is much simpler and less confusing once you stop mixing religion into science.

----------


## Templar

> Well, it's also annoying to see you, Templar, excluding yourself from Southern Europeans


The dark features of most Bosnians are mostly the result of Paleolithic Cro-Magnon traits, and not Near-Eastern farmers. This is attested by both haplogroup I prevalance (over 55%) and typical Bosnian physical features (such as prevalence of tallness). Also, Bosnians aren't constantly trying to prove links to Celts and other light-featured people, such as other Southern Europeans do (typically Spaniards). Light features are overrated.

----------


## Knovas

Haplogroup frequencies tell ZERO in terms of autosomal, so it is attested by nothing. I see you enjoy fooling yourself with strange ideas, if you want to think there's no Neolithic (not Near Eastern, or at least, fully Near Eastern) Farmers presence in the area, ok, go on. Oh, and don't forget the West Asian influence from Anatolia, surely very significant there and much recent than the Neolithic Farmers (let alone the Paleolithic inhabitants). Seriously, you must believe in miracles LOL.

PD: There's no data telling how light or dark were the Celts, only speculations.

----------


## Templar

> PD: There's no data telling how light or dark were the Celts, only speculations.


There is much writing about them in Roman archives.




> Haplogroup frequencies tell ZERO in terms of autosomal, so it is attested by nothing.


It is nonetheless a good way of estimating autosomal composition. Plus there is the obvious correlation between height and haplogroup composition (i.e. Germanic and Western Balkan countries both have alot of HP I and both are the tallest people in Europe).




> if you want to think there's no Neolithic (not Near Eastern, or at least, fully Near Eastern) Farmers presence in the area


Never said that. It's just too miniscule to be important.

----------


## Knovas

You're just repeting like a parrot the same ideas without even visualised a single sample from Bosnia in terms of autosomal. I did, and they came back similar to Southern Europeans, what means thy are largely Med, West Asian, or a mix a both (I bet for the last one). Just for you to know, according to K7b, Hungarians (who are more Northern than Bosnians, but still close) show almost 15% in both West Asian and "Southern" (Modal in Neolithic Farmers) clusters. ¿And you're trying to say it's minuscule to be important among Bosnians?

It's time to wake up, noone having basic knowledge would bet for your option. Also, It's actually not clear that more Northern Euro = more Paleolithic. When you run global PCA including Basques and Sardinians, they appear at the top of the West Eurasian populations (and the rest deviate from them), so there's much more to investigate regarding that issue.

There you are: 

"The most farming populations", appear more like a West Eurasian extreme pole than the others, and this is a global level (including Sub-Saharans, East Asians, etc.). Worth to mention that they lack the West Asian admixture, present in almost all Europeans. Yes...It's time to think about it.

Full image: http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3531/46003233.png

----------


## Templar

> You're just repeting like a parrot the same ideas without even visualised a single sample from Bosnia in terms of autosomal.





> It's time to wake up, noone having basic knowledge would bet for your option.


No need to be rude and offensive.




> Also, It's actually not clear that more Northern Euro = more Paleolithic


I never said that it was. More paleolithic regions are the ones that were able to remain relatively isolated from both the Indo-Europeans _and_ the neolithic migrants. Scandinavia seems pretty paleolithic, while the Baltic countries are far more Indo-European; even though they are both in Northern Europe.

----------


## Templar

> Full image:http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3531/46003233.png


The European populations are over-lapping too much. I can't discern which name is which. Do you have one that zooms in on only Europe?

----------


## Knovas

The Baltic countries are candidates according to the Eurogenes Project to have retained the most Paleolithic element, and it's probably partly right despite of their language, but there's also some East Eurasian element among them. Overall they are surely very close, however, Basques could also be even having less Atlantic-Baltic influence, since they don't show any significant West Asian, African or East Eurasian. It's not easy to define as I said in other posts, we need well sampled Hunter Gatherers to run PCA with them and see who is the closest one.

I think it's possible to obtain an experiment like this with a better zoom, I hope both Eurogenes and Dienekes' will do so. The one I showed maskes some populations who overlap, it's true, but it's pretty clear that at the top we find French_Basques and Sardinians. Orcadians are also close to the top comming from the right corner, and they curiously use to show substantial Med/South Euro scores, linked with the Neolithic Farmers. So, as I said, what these global experiments reflect, must be taken seriously, since it cannot be casual when lots of samples from distant ethnic groups are included. It shows IMO what populations truly are in comparison with others, although no admixture percents appear.

----------


## Templar

> The Baltic countries are candidates according to the Eurogenes Project to have retained the most Paleolithic element


Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.

----------


## MOESAN

> Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.


 I don't disagree as a whole but, - what have physical appearance and language that can contredict a Paleolithic hunter-gatherers origin? we should need surveys about the physical appearance of ALL Palélolithic men and the possible physical evolution that men can undergone under time, crossings and diet changes (even if I believe diet and way of life changes very little in this appearance) - and even if it is not so easy, a population can changes language, so the language as a criteria?... - - I 'm sure we forget that the last hunter-gatherers was MESOLITHIC PEOPLE and that movements of NEW people occurred after the L.G.M. some phenotypes appeared after 9000BC in Western Europe and surely they like others beared some Y-HGs and autosomals, did they not?

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## sparkey

> Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.


I tend to agree with this, although I've struggled to find evidence for Haplogroup I having a Paleolithic presence in the Balkans, while I've found an abundance of evidence of Paleolithic I in Western and Central Europe. I can't say I have any good candidates for surviving haplogroups that would have been in the Balkans during the Paleolithic period. But, at least, we can say that Haplogroup I, which is more common nowadays in the Balkans than practically anywhere, is Paleolithic to Europe as a whole.

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## Templar

> I tend to agree with this, although I've struggled to find evidence for Haplogroup I having a Paleolithic presence in the Balkans


I am starting to agree with the theory that haplogroup I's present distribution in the Balkans is the result of relatively recent migrations. Though this by itself doesn't reduce the strong likely-hood that the people themselves are largely descendants of Cro-Magnons.

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## suzan

New to the site.

I am J13c3 and after reading these comments on the thread, I am more confused that ever.

On 23andme, my results (ancestry painting) is 100% European. I am as fair haired with light blue eyes as you can be. So don’t understand the middle eastern connections, etc. I was adopted so but know my biological mother was as fair as me.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

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## Knovas

I revised your profile suzan and, as expected, you're female xD

That means your Y-DNA cannot be traced without sampling a brother or your father. J1c3c corresponds to your *Mt-DNA*, and as far as I know, maternal lines in Europe tend to be much older than paternal ones. According to my knowledge concerning your subclade, it's typically Western European even considering that maternal J as group originated in the middle east. All Europeans nowadays have connections with the middle east, despite the fact are quite distant.

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## jjmuneer123

My paternal haplogroup is J1*, non-semitic. My maternal haplogroup is T1. Meant to of been a high maternal haplogroup in andronovo.

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## firetown

> J1 are mostly found in Yemen 80%, Some bedoins in the north, Ghassanids Christian families of Lebanon , Syria, Palestine and Jordan and Causacus area where its at 75%


Some Bedouin groups have higher percentages than that.
http://www.rhesusnegative.net/stayne...edouin-dna.bmp

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## Brenda Alotaibi

I am looking for my mothers biological parents. She was adopted and her mother supposedly was from Germany. My mother was born in New mexico on April 7 1949. I am also confused by all of this. 


QUOTE=suzan;400861]New to the site.
I am J13c3 and after reading these comments on the thread, I am more confused that ever.
On 23andme, my results (ancestry painting) is 100% European. I am as fair haired with light blue eyes as you can be. So don’t understand the middle eastern connections, etc. I was adopted so but know my biological mother was as fair as me.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]

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## Johane Derite

> I am looking for my mothers biological parents. She was adopted and her mother supposedly was from Germany. My mother was born in New mexico on April 7 1949. I am also confused by all of this. 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=suzan;400861]New to the site.
> I am J13c3 and after reading these comments on the thread, I am more confused that ever.
> On 23andme, my results (ancestry painting) is 100% European. I am as fair haired with light blue eyes as you can be. So don’t understand the middle eastern connections, etc. I was adopted so but know my biological mother was as fair as me.
> Any information would be greatly appreciated.


[/QUOTE]

This thread is about the Y-DNA haplogroups J1 and J2. Since you are female you don't have a Y chromosome and so you wont know your Y haplogroup. Mtdna haplogroup
and Y dna haplogroup are different things. 

Regardless, it's possible to have a "middle eastern" haplogroup that comes form a very very distant ancestor, and still be ~100% "european" genetically, since the 
Mtdna haplogroup has only 37 genes, and the Y haplgroup has ~300 genes. This is a tiny percentage of the genes in your dna.

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