# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  "Tombs of the family of Alexander the Great finally giving up their secrets"

## Johane Derite

Quite cryptic. But some revealing things in this article. Greece apparantly has so far not allowed DNA testing of the most important bones.

Some excerpts:

"
The ages of the deceased in Tomb II were determined from wear and tear on bones: the main chamber contained a middle-aged male and the antechamber a far younger female. This narrowed down the list of kings and queens either side of Alexanders reign.

But an unfortunate symmetry obscured the background to the double burial in Tomb II, says London-based historian David Grant who collaborated with the scientists studying the skeletal remains. This led to a battle of the bones among historians, causing a rift which divided the academic community obsessed on proving their identities.

The Tomb II occupants could either be Alexanders father Philip II and his final teenage wife Cleopatra, or Philips half-witted son Arrhidaeus who was executed twenty years later when of similar age and with an equally young bride. Questions of ritual or forced suicide raised their head, because kings and queens rarely died together.

Philip II was a national hero who befitted such a tomb and he had seven wives we know of. But Grants research points out the elephant in the room: none of the ancient sources mentions any women being buried with Philip at Aegae. What superficially appears to be a two-phase construction of Tomb II, plus the different cremation conditions the female bones underwent, suggest she was buried later than the male in the still-empty or incomplete second chamber.

On the other hand, Arrhidaeus and his young bride Adea-Eurydice were executed together by Alexanders mother Olympias when she regained political control of the state capital. She also murdered Philips last wife, Cleopatra, along with her new-born child. This double assassination of Arrhidaeus and Adea-Eurydice explains the double burial given to them after Olympias was herself executed.

The Antikas team found new incontrovertible age evidence on previously unanalysed bones, as well as undocumented trauma, which further narrowed down the list of candidates. The womans pubic symphysis aged her at 32 +/- 2 years at death, ruling out Philips teenage wife Cleopatra and discounting Arrhidaeus and his wife completely.

Dispelling the case of archaeological gender bias was an overlooked shinbone wound providing proof that the armour and weapons belonged to the women, because the unevenly sized gilded-bronze greaves were fashioned to fit her shortened deformed leg. She was, indeed, being honoured as a warrior at death.

A final identity-shattering discovery was made by the Antikas team. Forgotten and unanalysed skeletal remains from Tomb I were found in storage below the Vergina laboratory; they were probably consigned to thirty-five-years of obscurity in the aftermath of the great Thessalonica earthquake of 20 June 1978 when the preservation of unlooted Tombs II and III was the focus of attention. These additional bones from Tomb I contained the remains of at least seven individuals, not just two adults and a baby.

The teams finds were published in an academic journal 2015. Although hampered by underfunding and a lack of support from those fearing unwanted results, they continued to push for next-generation forensics: DNA testing, radiocarbon dating, and stable isotope analysis on the Tomb II and Tomb III bones.

Permission was denied in 2016, Grant reveals. Instead, the scientists were allowed to test the scattered bones found in looted Tomb I, but with no formal funding provided. Although these bones lay exposed in soil for over 2,000 years, dating and DNA results were successfully extracted, disproving yet more of the identity theories. Moreover, controversial leg bones, which supposedly evidenced the terrible a knee wound Philip may have suffered in Thrace, appeared to be intruders from a completely different tomb. The results have yet to be published and Grant says they will amaze everyone.

What has become clear is that the great earthen tumulus at ancient Aegae was bitten into by looters on more than one occasion, and when exposed, Tomb I became a dumping ground for the dead.

Now Grants new book is revealing all, the pressure will certainly be on the Greek Ministry of Culture to take a new progressive stance on permitting the outstanding forensics on the royal bones from the unlooted tombs. With the possible identities greatly narrowed down by the Antikas-team study, new DNA, radio carbon dating and stable isotope analysis of the king, queen and prince may solve the puzzle once and for all."



LINK: https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...7LB6mS4M9V5.97

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## torzio

The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....then the current nation of macedonia can claim more "rights" to this line

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## bicicleur

sometimes pride obscures intelligence

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## Nik

It's to be expected from Greece since they don't recognize minorities and want to assimilate everyone. I don't get it, a country with such beautiful history is bound to get foreigners who accepted Hellenism among their ranks and they should take pride in it. 

On the other hand, there was a huge population shift from North to South everywhere in the Balkans so those ancient Macedonians could have ended up in modern Attiki or North Peloponnesos, thus the results will match much more with modern Greeks. Are they afraid they'll end up overlapping with Albanians or what? Because I don't think they fear North Macedonians due to their North-East European shift during the Middle Ages. 

In any case, I hope they proceed "illegally" and provide us some y and audna results. As a history and genetics enthusiast I'm really excited to see the results, I don't really care who they overlapped more.

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## Johane Derite

The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.

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## Nik

> The biggest shock from this would be if what has been promoted as Phillip's tomb/remains belong to Arrhidaeus as Grant is suggesting.


Indeed. And why isn't anyone mentioning Cynane the half-sister of Alexander who was trained by her mother Audata (Illyrian princess) in martial arts the Illyrian way, a tradition she passed on to her own daughter Adea-Eurydice? 

There's a lot of speculation over this mysterious Scythian woman, but we know that Cynane met her end by Alketas (Perdikas brother) on her way to marry Adea to marry Arrhidaeus, while both Adea-Eurydice and Philip Arrhidaeus were killed by Olympias and all 3 were burried in Aegae. 

Wikipedia (being lazy): "Audata trained her daughter in riding, hunting, and fighting in the Illyrian tradition. Cynane continued unmarried, and employed herself in the education of her daughter, Adea or Eurydice, whom she is said to have trained, after the manner of her own education, in martial exercises. Polyaenus writes, "Cynane, the daughter of Philip was famous for her military knowledge: she conducted armies, and in the field charged at the head of them. In an engagement with the Illyrians, she with her own hand slew Caeria their queen; and with great slaughter defeated the Illyrian army." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynane

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## Johane Derite

Right, I misread the part about the "amazonian" woman. He is suggesting that the age of the woman warrior cancels out both Phillip and Arrhideus as a possibility. The only possibility then is that this is Cynane's tomb, making the man Amyntas?

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## matty74

People have feared the truth since the beginning of mankind.

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## Angela

Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...

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## Salento

If they used Public Money, People are justified to demand / insist for transparency.

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## Dibran

> ..........................


Great find! Didn't know this is being re-examined.

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## bigsnake49

> Absent some miracle discovery, no one is ever going to know who they were...


You mean that they did not have tombstones clearly labeling who's who?

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## Johane Derite

A woman warrior from that time frame with such a venerated tomb can only be Cynane tbh. She commanded whole armies.

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## Yetos

there is not a chance to be Κυννα,

Kynna was killed much before Kassandros brought her bones to Aiges,

the woman is the Scythian wife-bodyguard of Phillip 2nd.

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## Dianatomia

> The non testing by the greek govnt, is due to...what if the findings state paeonian or dardanian....


Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors. 

The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians. 

We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.

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## Angela

> Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors. 
> 
> The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians. 
> 
> We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would argue that we ought not to act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.


Very well put.

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## Johane Derite

> Even if that were true. How is it exactly that you can distinguish Paeonian DNA 4th century B.C. from Ancient Greek DNA 4th century B.C.? If you exclude medieval migrations, the South Balkans would be mostly identical. It is fairly acceptable to have some small gradients of variety within a people. Culture and language in that case are the determening factors. 
> 
> The whole point for those who argued that Ancient Macedonians were supposed to be different biologically, is that Ancient Macedonians must have had a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Ancient Greeks altogether. In fact, if the Ancient Macedonians do hypothetically have a very distinguishable genetic make-up from other Greeks. Then they are probably not related to anyone in the region to begin with. That includes Paeonians. 
> 
> We have come to the point of splitting hairs sothat some modern nations adjecent to Greece can claim some of the Ancient Macedonian heritage. In that case, I argue, they can claim all Ancient Greek history altogether if they want. They have biological ancestors who are genetically identical to them. In return I would say that we ought not act childish and rob those ancient Greek people of their Hellenic cultural elements absent evidence.



With paternal and maternal lineages in conjuction with auDna we don't have to split hairs. Argead dynasty y-dna would be useful to know, which branch philip, alexander, etc belonged to. This knowledge would split the hairs for us, and put an end to these arguments wouldn't it? I bought this book btw, and I will post some excerpts from it here. 

Can definitely recommend it.

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## blevins13

> Very well put.


We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.


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## Angela

> We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


He didn't even address the issue. He said, even if that's true...

Please read posts closely and apply reason before posting.

One more post like that and you get an infraction as well.

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## real expert

I suspect that the Macedonians were Greek but with substantial "Northern" admixture. I have seen some Macedonian paintings and the people there looked different and less "East Med" than the depictions of Greeks on Roman paintings. Maybe they were like modern Mainland Greeks from the genetical point of view. Fact is Greeks are very protective of Alexander the Great and ancient Macedonians for obvious reasons.

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## blevins13

> He didn't even address the issue. He said, even if that's true...
> 
> Please read posts closely and apply reason before posting.
> 
> One more post like that and you get an infraction as well.


So even if that is true, it will not matter after all, genetic or not Macedonians are Greek no proof needed, considering they show up after Bronze Age collapse.

As for infraction, when you participate as a member on a discussion expect opposing opinions, or just moderate and do not express any opinion. Wearing multiple hats is not fair.




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## Angela

> So even if that is true, it will not matter after all, genetic or not Macedonians are Greek no proof needed, considering they show up after Bronze Age collapse.
> 
> As for infraction, when you participate as a member on a discussion expect opposing opinions, or just moderate and do not express any opinion. Wearing multiple hats is not fair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


How you get from what he said to what you concluded is beyond me. You have to disconnect your hyper-patriotism and ethnic hatred of people, Greeks, who are your "cousins" genetically, at least some of them, and actually reason from what was said.

Do you have an ancient Paenonian sample? An ancient "Dorian" sample which you people also always argue about? How about a certifiable Macedonian sample? 

When you have them we can compare all of them, including Mycenaean samples, and samples from the appropriate places just north of actual Greece, and from Classical Era Greece, and then we'd know wouldn't we?

What would you do if it upends everything you thought, as has happened to the pro-Herodotus supporters, for example? Would you accept the scientific evidence or would you try to find some way to deny it. 

I don't see mainland Greeks having a nervous breakdown because the Islanders are closer to the Mycenaeans than they are.

You really have to get a grip.

Not everything we were told in kindergarten is true. Sad, in some cases, but the reality. 

You insult another poster or you insult me, it's still worthy of an infraction.

That's the only recourse you seem to have. 

Post FACTS, verifiable facts, and accept the facts posted by others and you'd have no problems here.

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## Johane Derite

This is a very dense book that contains the entire history of work that has been done on these tombs, and David Grant's style is such he states nothing outright but rather develops his arguments over 40 pages, with no quick "tagline" or summary available. This page nonetheless is one quite important one as it has a lot of important chunks:

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## Johane Derite

And David Grant does argue that the tomb of the "Amazoness Warrior" does in fact belong to Cynane. He lists all the counter-arguments and history of the differing theories, and still concludes it is Cynane:

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## Johane Derite

Cynane was the daughter of Audata, who is the daughter of Bardylis, the most powerful Dardanian king of antiquity we know of. Therefore her mtdna and audna immediately is of great relevance to Dardanian history and thus Albanian history, without making any claims or contestations about the Macedonians or Argeads origins.

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## dosas

I'd like to point out that we have samples from the Classical Age, post-dating the 'Dorian Descent'. The sample Empuries2 is plotting almost identical to the Mycenean samples average, you can check it out with a simple run of VahaduoJS using the G25 co-ordinates (I know these are frowned upon on this board but still):

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.6188% / 0.02618803

86.0
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi



14.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
Distance: 2.3343% / 0.02334315

86.2
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi



13.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



So the Classical Age Greek from the Empuries colony is almost identical to the Mycenean sample average, post-dating the Bronze Age Collapse. Of course, that is one sample, but it's one step closer to uncovering the truth.

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## blevins13

> How you get from what he said to what you concluded is beyond me. You have to disconnect your hyper-patriotism and ethnic hatred of people, Greeks, who are your "cousins" genetically, at least some of them, and actually reason from what was said.
> 
> Do you have an ancient Paenonian sample? An ancient "Dorian" sample which you people also always argue about? How about a certifiable Macedonian sample? 
> 
> When you have them we can compare all of them, including Mycenaean samples, and samples from the appropriate places just north of actual Greece, and from Classical Era Greece, and then we'd know wouldn't we?
> 
> What would you do if it upends everything you thought, as has happened to the pro-Herodotus supporters, for example? Would you accept the scientific evidence or would you try to find some way to deny it. 
> 
> I don't see mainland Greeks having a nervous breakdown because the Islanders are closer to the Mycenaeans than they are.
> ...


I don’t hate Greeks, I hate lies.....as for facts here is one: Greek government does not allows Genetic testing on a Macedonian grave. This is the fact that I am discussing about. For me this is shameful period. 
This might be insulting to someone but that is not my problem, infractions for this are welcomed, sometime a point has to be made.

Thanks for doing my profile as well, I enjoyed it, far away from the truth .....but good try.



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## Johane Derite

It's best we just focus on the details of this thread. I think it's important to have mtdna, ydna, and audna. Any of these without the other paints an incomplete picture about populations we are studying. Mtdna and ydna is especially useful for dynasties. If Argead dynasty ends up being some celtic Y-dna, that would change everything wouldn't it

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## Angela

> I don’t hate Greeks, I hate lies.....as for facts here is one: Greek government does not allows Genetic testing on a Macedonian grave. This is the fact that I am discussing about. For me this is shameful period. 
> This might be insulting to someone but that is not my problem, infractions for this are welcomed, sometime a point has to be made.
> 
> Thanks for doing my profile as well, I enjoyed it, far away from the truth .....but good try.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Great. I heard you. We all heard you. If you post it again and again, it's spamming.

Plus, our Greek poster didn't even address that. You and Laberia and some others never, ever, address the actual FACTS, the actual GENETICS, because they either don't yet exist, or they're not in your favor, so instead you resort to this sort of invective. 

I'm sure international labs will be investigating all of this and then we don't have to hear any more of it.

As for yDna versus autosomal, the yDna is sometimes of limited usefulness. Somerled probably carried R1a, the dna of the invading Scandinavians; it doesn't make him any less who he was or his achievements for his people any less.

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## LABERIA

> Great. I heard you. We all heard you. If you post it again and again, it's spamming.
> 
> Plus, our Greek poster didn't even address that. You and Laberia and some others never, ever, address the actual FACTS, the actual GENETICS, because they either don't yet exist, or they're not in your favor, so instead you resort to this sort of invective. 
> 
> I'm sure international labs will be investigating all of this and then we don't have to hear any more of it.
> 
> As for yDna versus autosomal, the yDna is sometimes of limited usefulness. Somerled probably carried R1a, the dna of the invading Scandinavians; it doesn't make him any less who he was or his achievements for his people any less.


Leave me out of your scientific discussion. Is it possible?

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## blevins13

> Great. I heard you. We all heard you. If you post it again and again, it's spamming.
> 
> Plus, our Greek poster didn't even address that. You and Laberia and some others never, ever, address the actual FACTS, the actual GENETICS, because they either don't yet exist, or they're not in your favor, so instead you resort to this sort of invective. 
> 
> I'm sure international labs will be investigating all of this and then we don't have to hear any more of it.
> 
> As for yDna versus autosomal, the yDna is sometimes of limited usefulness. Somerled probably carried R1a, the dna of the invading Scandinavians; it doesn't make him any less who he was or his achievements for his people any less.


I did not know that genetic was not in my favor? But what is my favor? 



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## Nik

> I did not know that genetic was not in my favor? But what is my favor? 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Leave her man, I received 3 infractions for no reason. She cannot wait for you to keep speaking to her she can ban you and all the other Albanians for the slightest thing. Just do your thing and ignore her and of course, don't criticize or question her modern Greek either. 

Alexander might have been half Epirote and 1/4th Illyrian, but you're not allowed to be interested in his family's genetic test unless you're a Greek. If you are indeed interested, you're an ultra nationalist, spammer, provocative, and deserve to be banned. This is probably my last post hahahah

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## Angela

Actually 2 infractions, Nik, NOW it's 3. 

Keep it up.

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## Angela

> Leave me out of your scientific discussion. Is it possible?


If you're not interested in the application of science to these questions then you don't belong here.

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## LABERIA

> If you're not interested in the application of science to these questions then you don't belong here.


I am not interested to discuss with you.

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## Angela

> I did not know that genetic was not in my favor? But what is my favor? 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


So far as I can tell, you believe, and want everyone else to believe that you're pure descendants of the "Illyrians", while other modern populations are actually closest to the ancient samples, and you want people to believe that you affected the genetics of the Greeks, but they didn't affect yours, which is HIGHLY unlikely. 

That about covers it.

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## Angela

> I'd like to point out that we have samples from the Classical Age, post-dating the 'Dorian Descent'. The sample Empuries2 is plotting almost identical to the Mycenean samples average, you can check it out with a simple run of VahaduoJS using the G25 co-ordinates (I know these are frowned upon on this board but still):
> 
> Target: GRC_Mycenaean
> Distance: 2.6188% / 0.02618803
> 
> 86.0
> GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Dosas.

Didn't see it until now.

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## blevins13

> So far as I can tell, you believe, and want everyone else to believe that you're pure descendants of the "Illyrians", while other modern populations are actually closest to the ancient samples, and you want people to believe that you affected the genetics of the Greeks, but they didn't affect yours, which is HIGHLY unlikely. 
> 
> That about covers it.


I will tell you what I believe so you don’t have to guess.
My family line is R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705>Y32147.
I hope this part of the Illyrian population, but I don’t know that yet, I am waiting for more genetic data and when certain government block this process of learning to cover their lies this pisses me off.
As for, did my ancestor marry with Greek women, I am sure they did, but considering that they were highlander probably they were not available.IMG_3962.jpg



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## Tutkun Arnaut

> We have someone here that tries to rationalize the behavior of a government that prohibits genetic testing and you say “well put”, interesting point of view from someone that claims that loves truth. No one is claiming Macedonian history, but we refuse to believe Modern Greeks claims with genetic proof. It is like a son claiming a father without being genetically tested. If the son refused to test his fathers remains that mean that he is lying, plain and simple.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


probably they did the test, and the results were not what they had expected. you cant argue DNA test.

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## Tutkun Arnaut

> Very well put.


the dna could have been put to calculators and some other people could be closer geneticaly than todays Greeks

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## blevins13

> probably they did the test, and the results were not what they had expected. you cant argue DNA test.


From this book bones don’t lie.


IMG_3965.jpg


IMG_3964.jpg



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## LTG

The grave goods strongly indicate that it is indeed Philip of Macedon. There was a large shield made from gold and ivory, alongside various other gold artifacts including a diadem. The thorax also strongly resembled the one that we see Alexander depicted wearing in the limited frescos we have of him. 

They need to DNA test the remains to put the speculation to bed for good. If this person resembles Ancient Greeks; great. If they are slightly more northern shifted as a result of their geography then that would land them very near modern Greeks anyway.

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## Angela

For the record: obviously the bones should be tested in a transparent manner, and the results published. 

Personally, I would think the remains are more northern shifted than the Mycenaeans, but that's just a speculation.

I don't give a darn which modern population is closest to them. 

Just keep the discussions fact and science based, and CIVIL.

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## Johane Derite

A beautiful colorisation of the ivory portraits found in tomb II.

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## Piro Ilir

Macedonians were of Illyrian stock. Modern greeks know this well. Hence they don't allow the examination of these Macedonian tombs. So far they have found there Illyrian bronze helmets. If I was living 2600 years ago, definitely I would be a 'wannabe Greek'. Life would be much easier for me

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## cybernautic

> Macedonians were of Illyrian stock. Modern greeks know this well. Hence they don't allow the examination of these Macedonian tombs. So far they have found there Illyrian bronze helmets. If I was living 2600 years ago, definitely I would be a 'wannabe Greek'. Life would be much easier for me


Do we know anything about the genetics of the Ancient Illyrians?

Any samples yet?

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## Angela

> A beautiful colorisation of the ivory portraits found in tomb II.


They look so Greek.

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## blevins13

> They look so Greek.


I look like them but I am no Greek. They look like Danubian urnfielders to me.


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## blevins13

> A beautiful colorisation of the ivory portraits found in tomb II.


Nice pictures but it would be better to
have some dna after all.


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## cybernautic

> I look like them but I am no Greek. They look like Danubian urnfielders to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


You look like a Sicilian mafioso

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## Angela

No insults here; just papers and facts.

One more post like that and you're out of here. 

Am I clear?

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## cybernautic

> No insults here; just papers and facts.
> 
> One more post like that and you're out of here. 
> 
> Am I clear?


You mean me?

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## blevins13

> You look like a Sicilian mafioso


You are right after all, some of my genetics cousins from Italy were mafioso after all.

Probably the Italian members can tell you more about them.

https://filodirettomonreale.it/2016/...-friuli-video/





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## Angela

Do you both want infractions???

Leave and cool off or you'll both get infractions.

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## blevins13

> Do you both want infractions???
> 
> Leave and cool off or you'll both get infractions.


No I am really connected to Ciulla from Pianna Dei Albanessi. Same y-Dna. It came up in FTDNA. Why the infractions? I did not offend anyone.



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