# Population Genetics > mtDNA Haplogroups > H >  H1c3

## paul333

Recent test result mtDNA - H1c3, Looking for information about this subclade, especially its origins or where it is most prolific today in Europe.

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## TJSMCR

From 23 and me

Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup H1c

Your maternal line stems from a branch of H1 called H1c. The common ancestor of haplogroup H1c lived approximately 6,500 years ago in southwestern Europe, where her ancestors had sheltered from the last great cold peak of the Ice Age thousands of years earlier. While she probably lived in southern France or the Iberian Peninsula, her descendants are most frequently found among eastern Europeans. Women carrying H1c journeyed eastward from southwestern Europe, passed north of the Italian Alps and entered present-day Slovakia. From there, H1c spread north throughout the region surrounding the Baltic Sea and the Volga-Ural area of Russia. Members of H1c also moved into southeastern Europe to Ukraine, the Balkans, and the Caucasus Mountains. Today, H1c can be found at low levels throughout Europe.

H1c3

4,500

Years Ago

Your maternal haplogroup, H1c3, traces back to a woman who lived approximately 4,500 years ago.

That's nearly 180.0 generations ago! What happened between then and now? As researchers and citizen scientists discover more about your haplogroup, new details may be added to the story of your maternal line.

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## paul333

Hi TJSMCR
I was told by a Norwegian on the forums that mtdna H1c3, is Norwegian,( H1 Mtdna was highest in Norway at 30% of the population ) but there are lower subclades, two closest is H1c3a, and H1c3b, H1c3b has the most hits in Sweden Today. 

Anciently H1c3a was found in an Icelandic Viking boat burial at Vatnasdur, VDP-A6, 9th Century I believe, which was deemed Norse, and there was also a late Viking age cemetery with H1c3 found in Bodzia, Poland, so I think it may have developed earlier in the Northern parts of Europe, Scandinavia, Finnland etc, although H1c3 is spread widely throughout Europe today.

Family Tree have a Y Haplotree which includes an Mtdna section, which has H1c3 and the two lower subclades, You can check their modern entries, which gives some Idea of how they are spread today, for H1c Sweden has the most on that site today, with England showing most for H1c3.

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## paul333

MTDNA update.

I checked the Y full tree, and it has updated its mtdna H1c3, section today, 08/05/2019. 

It is now showing mtdna H1c3 formed only 1000 ybp, with a TMRCA of 900 ybp. 

Its earlier ancestral Haplogroup of mtdna Hc1, is now showing being formed 12,600 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4900 ybp.

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## paul333

> MTDNA update.
> 
> I checked the Y full tree, and it has updated its mtdna H1c3, section today, 08/05/2019. 
> 
> It is now showing mtdna H1c3 formed only 1000 ybp, with a TMRCA of 900 ybp. 
> 
> Its earlier ancestral Haplogroup of mtdna Hc1, is now showing being formed 12,600 ybp, with a TMRCA of 4900 ybp.


Checked again today (10 May 2019 )and it has updated and changed Mtdna H1c3, to formed 750ybp, and with a TMRCA of 650 ybp, with Mtdna H1c now formed 11,200 ybp, and TMRCA of 4,400 ybp.

These updates/changes are happening pretty regularly.

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## paul333

> Checked again today (10 May 2019 )and it has updated and changed Mtdna H1c3, to formed 750ybp, and with a TMRCA of 650 ybp, with Mtdna H1c now formed 11,200 ybp, and TMRCA of 4,400 ybp.
> 
> These updates/changes are happening pretty regularly.


Todays ( 11/05/2019 )change for Mtdna on Y Full Mtdna, has Mtdna haplogroup 'H1c3', formed '1,300' ybp, and TMRCA is now '1,050' ybp. Its parent Mtdna Haplogroup of 'H1c' is now formed '15,100', ybp, with a TMRCA of '7,500' ybp. As this referenced group is changing so often with Y Full Mtdna, I will leave it, and see how it develops for a while.

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## paul333

On the YFull MTree, under the mtdna H1c3 Haplogroup, there are downstream Subclades, one the furthest is H1c3b1, with one of its two defining SNP Markers as 'A13933G'. 

In my 23 & Me,'Raw Data' I have a similar SNP Marker of i5050661, 'with a Genomic Position of '13933' and variants 'A'or 'G', with my Genotype shown as 'A'. 

Do I have a match to SNP 'A13933G' or is it the opposite, how are the 'A'or'G' variant letters placed with the figure '13933' first or last, and how is my Genome Type of 'A' attached to the '13933' figure.

Do I have 'G13933A', 'A13933A', or 'A13933G' ???

Any help would be very appreciated.


This was recently answered on another forum, as I have the Ancestral 'A' Genotype for A13933G I am therefore negative, for the subclade it represents which is H1c3b1, I have been informed.

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## paul333

Regarding lower subclades of H1c3, I have been going over my 23 & Me Raw Data, and I have found two positive SNP markers for H1c3a. , They are (1) i 4001356, with a position of 16176, with Genotype C, (2) i, 705670 with position 16176 and Genotype C. 

There are three SNP reference markers for this subclade (1) T146C!, (2) C16176T, and (3) A16219G. I am negative for the two other identifying markers, ( 1 ) and (3) but I do have two ( 2 ) with the derived Genome Type 'C 'for the two 16176, position markers, making me positive with C16176. 

Therefore I am confused having both positive and negative markers for subclade H1c3a,, If I have these positive markers do I have this lower subclade, or not, as I still dont fully understand How it works,are the negatives ignored if you also have positives ?? . 

Regarding the end letter's Im not sure which I have, and what they stand for, but I do know the positive H1c3a has the 'T' at C16176'T' ).. 

I also have comeacross another two further positive SNP markers, that are both G12501, one is referenced on GenBank Feb 2016 also identifying H1c3a. 

Have now had an answer on another forum, Im also informed I'm negative for H1c3a, back to the searching again.

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## paul333

H1c3, now H-c1m2c23d11e, on Y Full mtdna tree.

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## brianco

Hi

Is H1c3 or H1c3b now H-c1m2c23d11e? What is weird is it says age is 175 years and this is the birth year -1 of my brick wall  :Sad:

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## paul333

> Hi
> 
> Is H1c3 or H1c3b now H-c1m2c23d11e? What is weird is it says age is 175 years and this is the birth year -1 of my brick wall


 

Only YFull M Tree, has changed the positions and their reference's, in my case for A257G, and T8473C, (which represented Haplogroup H1c3 ), which now relate's to a new 'H' mtdna subclade, 'H-c1m2c23d11e'. 

Im not sure about the datings etc as I cannot find any dates, or age references now, and will have to wait for more information to surface. H1c3 in my case was aged about 3,000 yrs.

If this is 'correct about Mtdna 'H-c1m2c23d11e', at 175 yrs old, then in my case, and at that time my direct 'Maternal Ancestor and family were living in and around 'Spittal' and Scremerston, Northumberland, which is just across the river Tweed from Berwick.. 

I do know I have a lot of Northumbrian Ancestry, confirmed also by my Living Dna results, indicating my Northumbrian Ancestry at 54.3%.

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## brianco

Thanks

Where have you seen the reference for H1c3b1?

On https://www.familytreedna.com/public...rame=mtresults

There are several predicted subclades of H1c3b but don’t know if you have any of the mutations  :Sad:

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## paul333

> Thanks
> 
> Where have you seen the reference for H1c3b1?



I Cannot remember wether it was the one on the 'Genetichomeland.com', under Genetic Homeland DNA marker index, or the earlier YFull M Tree that has since changed it. 

H1c3b1,was under the kit no KF162580.1, under the H1c subclade, but is now under 'H-c1m2c23d11e', on the Y Full M new tree 12th Aug 2019. 

I tried to look for it, and it has now been removed, or changed as above ,but H1c2 etc and H1c4 etc and others are still there today under H1c, so I do not know what has happend to it.

I also have a reference on another forum dated 06/09/2019, under Mtdna H1c3 where I state I found it on the " Y Full M Tree today", which had an identifying SNP marker of A13933G, for H1c3b1.

I myself was negative having genotype 'A' not 'G'.

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## brianco

Thanks

I do not have that, maybe a no call  :Sad: 

I have these extras: A302AC!!!!, A302ACC, A16183C, T16362C!!

Hopefully the first two will prove fruitful soon :)

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## paul333

T16362C, etc confirms your H1c3b on genbank, but the reference I mentioned as H1c3b1 (KF162580.1 ) is now listed under the same Subclade of H-c1m2c23d11e, as I am, but I was previously H1c3 upstream, on Y Full M Tree. 

There is also an ancient reference that was referenced as Mtdna H1c3 from the Blatter Hohle cave, Hagen Germany ( 'BLA 10' ) that is now showing under H-c1m2c23d11e tree,for reference KF523403.1, and the age is dated to around 5500 yrs before today. 

It seems as Mtdna H1c3 has some new information, and it may be easier to trace the history of its journeys under the new subclade reference's,hopefully. I also do not have the SNPs A302AC,and A302ACC either, so its a waiting game to see where we end up.

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## brianco

Thanks Paul

I am Solothurn from Anthrogenica 

I only get H1c3 on LivingDNA too  :Laughing:

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## paul333

> Thanks Paul
> 
> I am Solothurn from Anthrogenica 
> 
> I only get H1c3 on LivingDNA too


Thanks,
I came across the reference of A13933G which was H1c3b1, and is now referenced for, H-c1m2c23d11e5, on the YFull M Tree. I also saw a reference to, A302A!!!!!!!!! which referenced H-c1m2c23d, which is upstream from us, and might be relevant.

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## paul333

> Thanks,
> I came across the reference of A13933G which was H1c3b1, and is now referenced for, H-c1m2c23d11e5, on the YFull M Tree. I also saw a reference to, A302A!!!!!!!!! which referenced H-c1m2c23d, which is upstream from us, and might be relevant.



Update,
Looked on Y Full M Tree today, (H1c ) and under A275G,* T8473C, it is now showing Mtdna Haplogroup H1c32 as a new Subclade, which is also showing H-c1m2c23d11e, for the same Snps, both originally were referencing only H1c3.

Both, H-c1m2c23d11e, and H1c32 are listed today ( 13th Aug 2019 )under the same two SNPs.

There is also a number of references to several subclades under SNP C302A!, and Snp A302C, is now refering to H1c1c1a.

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## paul333

> Update,
> Looked on Y Full M Tree today, (H1c ) and under A275G,* T8473C, it is now showing Mtdna Haplogroup H1c32 as a new Subclade, which is also showing H-c1m2c23d11e, for the same Snps, both originally were referencing only H1c3.
> 
> Both, H-c1m2c23d11e, and H1c32 are listed today ( 13th Aug 2019 )under the same two SNPs.
> 
> There is also a number of references to several subclades under SNP C302A!, and Snp A302C, is now refering to H1c1c1a.



Update for H1c3.

There has been many changes on the Y Full M Tree quite recently, and Mtdna, 'H1c3' etc, was previously identified by A275G, and T8473C. 

These two SNP's are now only identifying the further downstream subclade, of 'H1c3b'. 

There are two listed references on the Y Full M Tree, for H1c3b, One from Denmark, (JX153409.1 ) and the other from Newfoundland, (HQ287887.1).

H1c3 has been removed, along with H-c1m2c23d11e, and H1c32 is still showing as a new Subclade, Whilst H1c3b, is showing as a modified subclade on the Y Full M Tree.

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## paul333

looking at the 28 Sept 2019 YFull M tree update today. Mtdna Haplogroup - H1c3, has now been relisted, and reverted back to its earlier branch position, rather than its earlier and recent designation of H1c3b. 

Not sure what is going on with the YFull, M Tree, but its still being informed ' under construction'.

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## Tracy1308

Hi, just joined. Received my results back from LivingDNA yesterday, I am haplogroup H1c3 also 😊

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## kingjohn

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_..._sequences.htm

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## Iceni1973

I'm H1c3a my mother and her mother's liline are from Dorset and Somerset England.

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## Iceni1973

Hello I'm H1c3a and my mother and her female line are from Dorset and Somerset England.

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## brianco

Hi  :Good Job: 

Are you H1c3a or H1c3d?

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## brianco

Yfull now put me in H1c3b1*

Interestingly others especially from Denmark MRCA 850 years bp  :Beer:

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## Luso

I am now at H1c3* along with some other iberian clades, surrounded by nordic countries.

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## brianco

Nice one  :Smile:

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