# Population Genetics > mtDNA Haplogroups >  mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan.

## Alan

I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG2004.pdf

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## Goga

Again, very interesting distribution! I don't know why but everything about the Kurds is interesting, their Y-DNA, their language, their native religion, their culture and especilly their mtDNA!


Do Kurds have the most HV of all Homo sapiens in the world? And do only Persian come close?

mtDNA haplogroup HV belonged to Cro-Magnon Homo sapiens in the ancient times, in Europe to the second wave of Homo sapiens. HV moved into Europe and mixed and almost replaced the native European mtDNA haplogroup U5. U5 belonged to the first wave of anatomically modern humans in Europe.

HV is the ancestral haplogroup to the European Haplogroup H and Haplogroup V.


*Also, this haplogroup is matching very much with the Y-dna haplogroup I !!!*


Btw, did HV or U5 mixed with the Neandertals?

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## sparkey

> mtDNA haplogroup HV belonged to Cro-Magnon Homo sapiens in the ancient times, to the second wave of Homo sapiens. HV moved into Europe and mixed and almost replaced native European mtDNA haplogroup U5. U5 belonged to the first group of anatomically modern humans in Europe.
> 
> HV is the ancestral haplogroup to the European Haplogroup H and Haplogroup V.
> 
> 
> *This haplogroup is matching very much with the Y-dna haplogroup I !!!*
> 
> 
> Btw, did HV or U5 mixed with the Neandertals?


Although some Paleolithic European mtDNA could have been HV and some have suspected certain samples of being HV, none have been proven to be. I also find it very unlikely that Kurdish HV is Cro-Magnon in origin, even if we were to grant HV as being around in Europe since the Paleolithic. HV is definitely most common in the Middle East and seems to have a better correlation with Y-DNA J than Y-DNA I. I tend to agree that European U5 is probably the best representative of Paleolithic European mtDNA... in fact, if anything correlates with Y-DNA I, it is U5, or more precisely, a large subset of U5 combined with a small subset of U4 and maybe a subset of H and/or HV.

I recall that there was some controversy as to whether or not the Y-DNA Haplogroup I predicted from Kurdish STRs was _actually_ Haplogroup I. The U5 in Kurds may help confirm that (although even there we aren't guaranteed that it's a back-migration without additional analysis... after all, we also find U5 in Turks and apparently Hazara). Also, this sample size was only 20, and we should be weary of reading much of anything into finding an individual or two in a haplogroup.

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## Alan

> Again, very interesting distribution! I don't know why but evrything about the Kurds is interesting, their Y-DNA, their language, their native religion, their culture and especilly their mtDNA!
> 
> 
> Do Kurds have the most HV of all Homo sapiens in the world? And do only Persian come close?
> 
> mtDNA haplogroup HV belonged to Cro-Magnon Homo sapiens in the ancient times, to the second wave of Homo sapiens. HV moved into Europe and mixed and almost replaced native European mtDNA haplogroup U5. U5 belonged to the first group of anatomically modern humans in Europe.
> 
> HV is the ancestral haplogroup to the European Haplogroup H and Haplogroup V.
> 
> ...


U7 in this question is much more interesting. It is found in moderate frequency among Near Easterners and only found in high frequency among Iranic tribes and Gujarati (high cast Indians) while in rest of India it is almost absent. This Haplogroup might have a link to the proto Indo-Iranians. It is also related to U5 (East European?) Haplogroup.

Also this distribution of mtDNA is actually representative for Lak and some Sorani Kurds from West Iran not Kurmanji and Sorani Kurds from Northwest but I think the distribution is very similar.

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## Alan

> Although some Paleolithic European mtDNA could have been HV and some have suspected certain samples of being HV, none have been proven to be. I also find it very unlikely that Kurdish HV is Cro-Magnon in origin, even if we were to grant HV as being around in Europe since the Paleolithic. HV is definitely most common in the Middle East and seems to have a better correlation with Y-DNA J than Y-DNA I. I tend to agree that European U5 is probably the best representative of Paleolithic European mtDNA... in fact, if anything correlates with Y-DNA I, it is U5, or more precisely, a large subset of U5 combined with a small subset of U4 and maybe a subset of H and/or HV.
> 
> I recall that there was some controversy as to whether or not the Y-DNA Haplogroup I predicted from Kurdish STRs was _actually_ Haplogroup I. The U5 in Kurds may help confirm that (although even there we aren't guaranteed that it's a back-migration without additional analysis... after all, we also find U5 in Turks and apparently Hazara). Also, this sample size was only 20, and we should be weary of reading much of anything into finding an individual or two in a haplogroup.


Such studies are all done with STRs. The Question is why in other Populations of the Near East, also done with STR studies there was not such a high frequency of I. While in studies on Kurds from Anatolia and Iraq this was the case. 
And who started this controversy?

To be honest I think all of this is just nonsense talk of some Near Eastern populations which cant stand that I was found in such high frequency among Kurds.

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## sparkey

> Such studies are all done with STRs. The Question is why in other Populations of the Near East, also done with STR studies there was not such a high frequency of I. While in studies on Kurds from Anatolia and Iraq this was the case. 
> And who started this controversy?


Here, Shetop has challenged that idea. I believe I read a related challenge on another forum, probably DNA Forums, as they had a thread about Haplogroup I in Kurds that ended up getting locked.

I would like to see deep SNP tests to understand more about Kurdish Haplogroup I... it deserves it because it's a _really_ interesting outlier if the STR predictions are true.

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## Goga

> Although some Paleolithic European mtDNA could have been HV and some have suspected certain samples of being HV, none have been proven to be. I also find it very unlikely that Kurdish HV is Cro-Magnon in origin, even if we were to grant HV as being around in Europe since the Paleolithic. HV is definitely most common in the Middle East and seems to have a better correlation with Y-DNA J than Y-DNA I. I tend to agree that European U5 is probably the best representative of Paleolithic European mtDNA... in fact, if anything correlates with Y-DNA I, it is U5, or more precisely, a large subset of U5 combined with a small subset of U4 and maybe a subset of H and/or HV.
> 
> I recall that there was some controversy as to whether or not the Y-DNA Haplogroup I predicted from Kurdish STRs was _actually_ Haplogroup I. The U5 in Kurds may help confirm that (although even there we aren't guaranteed that it's a back-migration without additional analysis... after all, we also find U5 in Turks and apparently Hazara). Also, this sample size was only 20, and we should be weary of reading much of anything into finding an individual or two in a haplogroup.


Ok, maybe you're right. And thank you for the correction. I got my info from wiki.

"_Much earlier, around 30,000 years ago, some members of HV moved north across the Caucasus Mountains and west across Anatolia, their lineages being carried into Europe for the first time by the Cro-Magnon._"

"_A 2003 study was published reporting on the mtDNA sequencing of the bones of two 24,000-year-old anatomically modern humans of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy. The study showed one was of either haplogroup HV or R0_"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_HV_(mtDNA)


Maybe mtDNA HV correlates better with Y-DNA IJ, because of the age. I think it's more likely that mtDNA HV folks were Y-DNA IJ folks.

Do you know by any chance wich mtDNA haplgroup mixed with the Neandertals? I know that the Neanderthals also lived in Kurdistan. But I think that the West Asian Neandethals were of different 'ethnicity' than the European Neandethals.

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## Goga

> U7 in this question is much more interesting. It is only found in high frequency among Iranic tribes and Gujarati (high cast Indians) while in rest of India it is almost absent. This Haplogroup might have a link to the proto Indo-Iranians. It is also related to U5 (East European?) Haplogroup.
> 
> Also this distribution of mtDNA is actually representative for Lak and some Sorani Kurds from West Iran not Kurmanji and Sorani Kurds from Northwest but I think the distribution is very similar.


O ok, thank you very much! It's incredible. Didn't know that If you want to trace ancient proto-Iranians you need to look at U7!

But somehow HV got my attention.

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## sparkey

> "_A 2003 study was published reporting on the mtDNA sequencing of the bones of two 24,000-year-old anatomically modern humans of the Cro-Magnon type from Southern Italy. The study showed one was of either haplogroup HV or R0_"


That's one of the most interesting results we have on Cro-Magnons... I wish it told us more. It's entirely possible (probably even the most likely explanation) that it was an individual who was R0 or HV whose direct line died out, along with most (all?) of their close relatives. As we take more Paleolithic samples, I expect to find more with now-extinct lineages.




> Maybe mtDNA HV correlates better with Y-DNA IJ, because of the age. I think it's more likely that mtDNA HV folks were mtDNA IJ folks.


Very plausible correlation... good speculation. HV is actually about as old as Y-DNA IJK, so the correlation could go back even farther.




> Do you know by any chance wich mtDNA haplgroup mixed with the Neandertals? I know that the Neanderthals also lived in Kurdistan. But I think that the West Asian Neandethals were of different 'ethnicity' than the European Neandethals.


We don't have any Neanderthal haplogroups around, so we can't observe direct correlations. Probably, Homo Sapiens of several different haplogroup admixtures encountered Neanderthals.

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## Goga

> Very plausible correlation... good speculation. HV is actually about as old as Y-DNA IJK, so the correlation could go back even farther.


If mtDNA HV is so old, how is it possible that Kurds have such an ancient haplogroup? Or maybe it is 'evolved', but there is just no verified subclade of it... 

Now I do understand why some Kurds look like monkeys.  :Embarassed:  They have ancient DNA! (_I'm Kurdish, so please don't take this joke as an insult._)

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## Alan

> Here, Shetop has challenged that idea. I believe I read a related challenge on another forum, probably DNA Forums, as they had a thread about Haplogroup I in Kurds that ended up getting locked.
> 
> I would like to see deep SNP tests to understand more about Kurdish Haplogroup I... it deserves it because it's a _really_ interesting outlier if the STR predictions are true.


I know which Forum you mean and I also know which Idiot (sorry for my words) "challenged" this Idea. The explanation he gave as reason was really more then idiotic. 

His explanation was " the predicted I must be G". The Reason why he believes this? Because allegedly G was probably not tested in the studies.

First of all in both studies. Nebel and Nasidze G was tested.

in Nasidze et al. Nasidze even points out that the samples of Kurds from Turkmenistan he used, are from Wels et al. and not typed for G*. And still no I was found among them.

How is that Guy going to explain me why?

But Nasidze did typed for G* among Anatolian Kurds you can see it on the Chart. He wanted to compare them to the samples of Turkmenistan which were not typed for G- M201. So he did put the untyped G-m201 into F*. You can read it in his study page 5. In other words G was typed. And G*M201 was packed under F*.

Another funny thing G-M201 is a rare Mutation of G-T and not really a Haplogroup. So in mind of this User from the other Forum. more than 15% of the I among Kurds are actually not I but a rare mutation. Give me a break.

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## Alan

> If mtDNA HV is so old, how is it possible that Kurds have such an ancient haplogroup? Or maybe it is 'evolved', but there is just no verified subclade of it...


Friend use the mass inside of your head.  :Laughing:  Most Haplogroups are older than 15 thousand years. This has nothing to do with the anciantness of Populations which carry it.

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## Goga

> Friend use the mass inside of your head.  Most Haplogroups are older than 15 thousand years. This has nothing to do with the anciantness of Populations which carry it.


Yes, I know. But is HV in Kurds almost the same as 30.000 years ago? I mean, without SERIOUS mutations.

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## Alan

> Yes, I know. But is HV in Kurds almost the same as 30.000 years ago? I mean, without SERIOUS mutations.


NO most probably not. At least not more than the HV found among other Populations.

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## Bodin

It look to me that I y DNA is conected to I mth DNA , as I recolect they both are conected with elevated body temperature - adaptation to colder climate, and in both of them development of HIV to AIDS is faster .Mth haplogroup I is believed to have arisen somewhere in Eurasia some 30,000 years before present, and been one of the first haplogroups to move into Europe.
Haplogroup I is found at very low frequencies (generally < 3%) throughout Europe , Middle East and south Asia. It is nearly absent in parts of Europe (Iberia, South-West France, Ireland)- all low in I yDNA, and strongest in Iceland (> 5%), Scotland, Norway, southern Finland( all high in I yDNA), Ukraine, Greece and western Anatolia( all moderate I y DNA). A February 2009 study found that Lemkos( they are called also Boiki and Rusini ) in the Carpathians mountins in Ukraine have the "highest frequency of haplogroup I (11.3%) in Europe, identical to that of the population of Krk Island (Croatia) in the Adriatic Sea ( both Lemkos and Croatians have very high I y DNA). 
Haplogroup I has also been observed at a frequency of 8.3% in Russians from Oryol oblast , I dont know percentages of they haplogroups , but they are not to far from I peak in Russia .
The frequency of haplogroup I may have undergone a reduction in Europe following the Medieval age. An overall frequency of 13% was found in ancient Danish samples from the Iron Age to the Medieval Age from Denmark and Scandinavia compared to only 2.5% in modern samples. As Hg I is not observed in any ancient Italian, Spanish, British, central European populations, early central European farmers and Neolithic samples, according to the authors "Haplogroup I could therefore have been an ancient Southern Scandinavian type “diluted” by later immigration events". ( But it is not known that Lemkos or Balkanic or Kurdic populations were ever in contact with south Scandinavia , aldo Visigots could brought it to Balkans and Ukraine)
Outside of Europe, the highest frequencies of mitochondrial haplogroup I observed so far appear in the Cushitic-speaking El Molo(22%) and Rendille (15%) in northern Kenya, Sindhis from Pakistan (8.7%) , Kurds from western Iran and Turks from eastern and western Azerbaijan (both 5%), and Mazandarians from northern Iran (4.5%). I dont know how I mth reached Africa , especialy Kenya , Kurds have much I y DNA , and there is litle I y DNA in Azerbaijan and Pacistan ( in Sarbans- Pashtuni ) , and there is elevated I yDNA in northern Iran. Actualy highest percent of I mth DNA is in El Molo outside of Europe , which is very strange , since it emerged in Euroasia , so it had to moved there , when ? One of posibilities is with female slaves toked from Europe by Arabic and Turkic pirates during Midle ages and sold on slave markets in North Africa , but in that kase there would be some I mthDNA in Arabs to .I couldnt tink of anything else.

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## sparkey

> It look to me that I y DNA is conected to I mth DNA , as I recolect they both are conected with elevated body temperature - adaptation to colder climate, and in both of them development of HIV to AIDS is faster .Mth haplogroup I is believed to have arisen somewhere in Eurasia some 30,000 years before present, and been one of the first haplogroups to move into Europe.


Obviously the correlation is not that strong, because we end up with populations outside of Europe like the Rendille with high mtDNA I and low Y-DNA I, and populations in Europe with high Y-DNA I and low mtDNA I like Sardinia and Germany. I think, though, that we can say that _European_ spikes of mtDNA I seem to correspond with I2a1b and I1 in particular (not so much I2a1a and I2a2). There may be a correlation with the recent expansion of mtDNA I in Europe and the recent expansion of I2a1b and I1 in Europe, but I'm not sure I'd extrapolate back much further.




> It is nearly absent in parts of Europe (Iberia, South-West France, Ireland)- all low in I yDNA, and strongest in Iceland (> 5%), Scotland, Norway, southern Finland( all high in I yDNA), Ukraine, Greece and western Anatolia( all moderate I y DNA).


Be careful--you're calling "low" places that can reach 15+% Y-DNA I. And like I pointed out, mtDNA I is low in places with high I2a1a like Iberia and Sardinia, as well as places that are high in I2a2 like Germany. So the correlation is apparently only with certain subclades.

I don't think that there's a good 1:1 match for mtDNA I, and a better match for Y-DNA I is probably U5, or at least a set of its subclades.




> The frequency of haplogroup I may have undergone a reduction in Europe following the Medieval age. An overall frequency of 13% was found in ancient Danish samples from the Iron Age to the Medieval Age from Denmark and Scandinavia compared to only 2.5% in modern samples. As Hg I is not observed in any ancient Italian, Spanish, British, central European populations, early central European farmers and Neolithic samples, according to the authors "Haplogroup I could therefore have been an ancient Southern Scandinavian type “diluted” by later immigration events". ( But it is not known that Lemkos or Balkanic or Kurdic populations were ever in contact with south Scandinavia , aldo Visigots could brought it to Balkans and Ukraine)


This is from Melchoir? The sample size was like 30. I wouldn't read too much into such percentages (although I also wouldn't doubt a reduction in mtDNA I there... we should just avoid jumping to conclusions, especially about frequency).




> Actualy highest percent of I mth DNA is in El Molo outside of Europe , which is very strange , since it emerged in Euroasia , so it had to moved there , when ? One of posibilities is with female slaves toked from Europe by Arabic and Turkic pirates during Midle ages and sold on slave markets in North Africa , but in that kase there would be some I mthDNA in Arabs to .I couldnt tink of anything else.


30,000 years gives you a lot more possibilities than something happening in the Middle Ages. I bet it's much more ancient there than that.

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## Bodin

> Obviously the correlation is not that strong, because we end up with populations outside of Europe like the Rendille with high mtDNA I and low Y-DNA I, and populations in Europe with high Y-DNA I and low mtDNA I like Sardinia and Germany. I think, though, that we can say that _European_ spikes of mtDNA I seem to correspond with I2a1b and I1 in particular (not so much I2a1a and I2a2). There may be a correlation with the recent expansion of mtDNA I in Europe and the recent expansion of I2a1b and I1 in Europe, but I'm not sure I'd extrapolate back much further.
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful--you're calling "low" places that can reach 15+% Y-DNA I. And like I pointed out, mtDNA I is low in places with high I2a1a like Iberia and Sardinia, as well as places that are high in I2a2 like Germany. So the correlation is apparently only with certain subclades.
> 
> I don't think that there's a good 1:1 match for mtDNA I, and a better match for Y-DNA I is probably U5, or at least a set of its subclades.
> 
> 
> ...


 I was merely pointing at posibility . Yes Baker-Bell culture show U4c1 and U5a , if they were I than that is a god match .Maybe I mth DNA is low in Germany and Sardinia because it is disapearing , I heard theory that it is producing more sons than a daughters , also it could be due to climate changes . 
About African I mth DNA it had to move from Euroasia in some point because it is separated from N there ,also it is not spreaded on biger aerias but grouped in two high clusters ( highest in world 15 and 22% ) with no I mth DNA in neighbouring nations , that make me to think about recent arival , and arival only of girls , and again I was just pointing posibility - not claiming anything .
In Deutschland and others aerias with high I2a2 ( ex Yugoslavia , Greece , Bulgaria ) I mth DNA is at average levels of 2,5-3,5 % so is not low, in Kurdistan it is 5% , I dont have data for Sardinia .
I believe we should track rare haplogroups because they presenting best posibilities for conecting with ancient nations. Thanks for answer

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## sparkey

> In Deutschland and others aerias with high I2a2 ( ex Yugoslavia , Greece , Bulgaria ) I mth DNA is at average levels of 2,5-3,5 % so is not low, in Kurdistan it is 5% , I dont have data for Sardinia .
> I believe we should track rare haplogroups because they presenting best posibilities for conecting with ancient nations. Thanks for answer


Sorry, I was using the new nomenclature, I should have been clear. I meant that mtDNA I corresponds with I2a1b (old I2a2 which includes I2a-Din) and I1 and not I2a2 (old I2b which is common in Germany) and I2a1a (old I2a1). So I agree that areas with high I2a-Din tend to have higher I mtDNA, there may be a correlation there.

I think rare haplogroups are important to look at when you can isolate them to certain populations. mtDNA I and W (and X for that matter) are probably too enigmatic to isolate them as such, at least without subclades.

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## Bodin

> Sorry, I was using the new nomenclature, I should have been clear. I meant that mtDNA I corresponds with I2a1b (old I2a2 which includes I2a-Din) and I1 and not I2a2 (old I2b which is common in Germany) and I2a1a (old I2a1). So I agree that areas with high I2a-Din tend to have higher I mtDNA, there may be a correlation there.
> 
> I think rare haplogroups are important to look at when you can isolate them to certain populations. mtDNA I and W (and X for that matter) are probably too enigmatic to isolate them as such, at least without subclades.


Missanderstanding , I should start to use new nomenclatures but I cant get use to them , sorry . I believe my mth Haplogroup X2 is somehow conected to Caucasus .Thanks for answering

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