# Europe Forum > European News & Hot Topics >  Future of Greece

## LeBrok

Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".

However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.

There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?

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## Angela

> Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
> I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
> Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".
> 
> However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.
> 
> There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?


I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.



Interestingly, Puerto Rico seems to be on the same course.

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## Maleth

Economy is not my forte, but I believe that Greece has falsified accounts to be able to meet the criteria needed to join the Eurozone which of course would have a ripple effect and spelled trouble from the beginning with spending MUCH more then it could afford. The taxation system is pretty much outdated and lots of unofficial (undeclared) business going on. If this was tackled seriously it would not be in the positions it is today. Up to a few years ago Greece had a robust economy and when I keep hearing that it seems that the most vulnerable people with low pensions and lower income brackets have to pay for this mess it just make me sick. What about a fair taxation for people who can afford more and would hardly feel the impact? Something is very very wrong.

ed voted stay in eurozone

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## Angela

> Economy is not my forte, but I believe that Greece has falsified accounts to be able to meet the criteria needed to join the Eurozone which of course would have a ripple effect and spelled trouble from the beginning with spending MUCH more then it could afford. The taxation system is pretty much outdated and lots of unofficial (undeclared) business going on. If this was tackled seriously it would not be in the positions it is today. Up to a few years ago Greece had a robust economy and when I keep hearing that it seems that the most vulnerable people with low pensions and lower income brackets have to pay for this mess it just make me sick. What about a fair taxation for people who can afford more and would hardly feel the impact? Something is very very wrong.


The Greek government is very much to blame as well, Maleth; I never meant to imply otherwise. It's just that the investment banks that sold them that junk are culpable as well, and I have no sympathy for them if they lose their investment. I'm no believer in bailouts for banks; it's just welfare for big corporations. You make decisions like that, you eat it.

From my experience, it's always the people with the most to lose who pay for the chicanery of their leaders. It makes me sick, too, believe me. 

Now that they're in this mess, though, hopefully the people in charge will bite the bullet and do the best they can.

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## Maleth

> Now that they're in this mess, though, hopefully the people in charge will bite the bullet and do the best they can.


My hope too. Maybe this was needed. It would be the third bail out in six years. There need to be some kind of limit.

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## Garrick

> Five years ago I recommended that Greeks should go bankrupt and start afresh. They could have been out of recession by now, growing their economy outside of Eurozone.
> I'm surprise this farce is still going on.
> Let's see how Greeks vote today. I have a feeling they will vote for staying in European Union and Eurozone, sort of "safer option".
> 
> However, no matter if they vote for staying, they might not be able to pay their mountain of debt. Either some debt needs to be forgiven or suspended, or eventually Greeks will go bankrupt and forced to leave Eurozone.
> 
> There might be another question. If Eurozone country goes bankrupt, does it need to leave Eurozone?


I think Eurozone will find ways to survive and makes progress. It is big idea that one currency is common for European countries. In future more countries will be in Eurozone than what is today.

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## Yetos

yo guys

I am Greek and I do not worry,

soon Balkans will burn again,
so do not worry,

if not EU then Cosco and allies is here, if not Cosco, BRICS, if not BRICKS, ISIS,

there is a book from 1952 by ισιδωρος Ποσδαγλης an economist, which say about that crisis and why it is be,
so I do not worry,
I just cleaned and polished my guns,
war is in East mediterenean and balkans again,
At Aimos peninsula Hephaistos light his vulk again

Do not afraid for us,


there are 4 models in oil drilling countries,

1) Norway and Scotland style
2) Arabic countries and Nigeria and religious wars
3) USA Russia 
4) Latin American style.

our future is either 2 either 4 type,
we know it, 
so what is going to happen let it happen,
400 years we survived Ottomans and other 800 Romans
maybe we deserve such faith, cause we learn to live like ΜΗΔEIΖΕΙΝ 

Personally I deny any kind of depth, and I will not go to vote at referendum, cause i want it to fail and be unfaithfull reaching 50% of population, but ....






when it will have clear skies 
when February comes,
to take my gun
and my beutifull cartridge belt
.....................................
.....................................
to make mothers without sons
and women without men
to make many many children
to cry with out mothers


*Bankers will not take our carbonhydrogens so cheap!!!!!
neither our sea neither our mountains,
neither our ports, neither our roads
but most of all our souls 


I HOPE NOTHING
I FEAR NOTHING
I AM FREE
*Ν kazantzakis

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## bicicleur

Greece falsified their figures with the aid of Goldman Sachs in order to meet the requirements to get acces to the Euro
Euro-politicians were aware of that but looked the other way
When they were in the Euro Greece had acces to easy money by loans
With that money the Greek government hired 140.000 extra people in the government adminsitration which they didn't need and who were totaly unproductive
They were simply distributing the easy money in order to keep everyone happy and get re-elected.
One example : on the island Zakynthos with 30.000 inhabitants 1.500 got a monthly pay because they were 'blind'
Among these 1.500 almost all taxi drivers of the island were included.
In 2008 there was financial crisis, easy money was finished for Greece.
But banks came in because Greece was paying high interest to keep up the financing.
Greece didn't get bankrupt because Europe had to save these banks who had taken unjustified risks.
Moreover Europe was afraid of spillover to ohter countries like Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland who were in danger too.
So the banks had to accept a haircut from Greece and Europe created the ESFS who took over the worhtless Greek government bonds.
Now we are 7 years later. The other European countries who's finances were shaky in 2008 have restructured and are much more healthy today.
But in Greece nothing has changed. Still so many people in government administration. Still so much corruption and abuse of social security. (allthough the Zakhyntos abuse was stopped ; it had become to blatent)
It is even worse, because in order to keep financing all this Greece has killed it's own economy.
It is unable to ever pay back it's debts.
Giving more money won't help, it's a bottomless pit.
Blaim the banks? Yes, they were vultures.
Some of them were sanctioned, but few.
But the real responsables are politicians.
Rest assured, none of them will ever get sanctioned.

The IMF is a large creditor to Greece. But the main is ESFS mentioned above, which is essentialy the European taxpayer.
Via ESFS and others, Belgium with 11 million inhabitants is estimated to lose 11 billion Euro.
East European taxpayers also have to help pay for the pensions payed to the Greek people while most of them get a pension which is far less than Greek pensions.
How can you justify this?
Spain and Portugal are still having tough times getting their economy healthy again, but slow recovery seems to have started.
How can you explain these countries they should pay for the mess in Greece?

Nobody can save Greece unless Greece starts to save itself.
It looks like some of them need a very hard lesson before they'll do that.
It's called a 'reality check'.
I'm sorry for them, but options are few.
And the road to recovery will be very long.

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## Kardu

With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...

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## Maleth

> With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...


Angela Merkel said that Greece has the legitimate right to hold a referendum over its outstanding state debt.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/201507...#ixzz3efw4iiqZ

....and anyhow no one is sure what this referendum is going to solve. Either all just realistic solutions are needed a Yes or a No vote will bring no magic solutions

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## Yetos

@ bicicleur

good and correct analysis
I see you are aware of the problem
yet there are some few details more, 
Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
which all countries took except Greece,
giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E

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## Garrick

> @ bicicleur
> 
> good and correct analysis
> I see you are aware of the problem
> yet there are some few details more, 
> Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
> which all countries took except Greece,
> giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
> It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E


Yetos
No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.

I had many Greek friends, some of them lived in Serbia, and all of them I know as very industrious people. Who thinks that Greeks are lazy he or she watch media and doesn't know reality. Politicians generally in world are more or less same, and they are prone for corruption, but in which country politicians are "flowers". 

Why I believe in Greece? Greece has very smart and capable people, it is the most important resource. Greece has very good position in Mediterranean, all sea paths lead to Greece and via Balkans and Middle Europe is extraordinary link toward the heart of industry of Europe, Germany. Greece has a lot of friendly countries in the world which can help to exits from difficulties. Greece can attract large investments about which some others can only dream. Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.

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## bicicleur

> @ bicicleur
> 
> good and correct analysis
> I see you are aware of the problem
> yet there are some few details more, 
> Like the demands from WW2 from Germany
> which all countries took except Greece,
> giving it as a ' mistaken gift' to Adenauer, throught a strange diplomatic word, proposed by our 'Allies' USA in the text signed by King Pavlos
> It is estimated 600 000 000 000 E


I don't know the details about that.
But I guess you mean the aid Germany got from Marshall plan?
Germany got aid several years after the end of WW II

And Germany was rebuilt in the first place by the Germans themselves. 
Of course they wouldn't have been able to do so if they didn't get help.

If Greece starts to save itself by restructering themselves, I'm certain they'll get the aid they need.
But the main efforts has te be done by Greece itself.
And the longer they wait the worse it will get.

I guess Tsipras himself is smart enough to realize that what he promises to Greece is utopia.
But I don't expect anything else from politicians.
And Greeks who are smart enough to realise this are held hostage by Greeks who prefer to believe fairy tales.

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## bicicleur

> With all these some European leaders urging/demanding that Greek government cancel the referendum shows how much in reality democracy and choice of people is valued...


They have the right to do so, but what's the point of such referenda?
They don't have the right to decide whether their creditors should give them more credit.
And by organising this referendum Varaoufakis and Tsipras made clear they have no authority to make a deal with the creditors till after the referendum.
That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.

Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.

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## Kardu

> They have the right to do so, but what's the point of such referenda?
> They don't have the right to decide whether their creditors should give them more credit.
> And by organising this referendum Varaoufakis and Tsipras made clear they have no authority to make a deal with the creditors till after the referendum.
> That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.
> 
> Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.


First of it's the matter of principle. When Western modern liberal-democratic establishment and media buzzes non-stop in everybody ears around the world about how wonderful liberal-democracy is then they should not try to silence people's voice.

I am no advocate of lefties but the Greek government wants the support of the population for the crucial decision, so that they share the responcibility of all the consequences to come.

Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.

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## LeBrok

> I agree. I think it would be best for them to just default and get it over with. Does anyone know who holds the majority of their debt, by the way? Do the American investment banks still hold a chunk of it? If they do, serves them right if they lose their money since their mortgage backed securities, which they knew were junk, helped create this mess. Payback is a *****.
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, Puerto Rico seems to be on the same course.


The problem with Greeks going their own way is, whether thy can create an advantage out of it. Advantage due to debt cancellation, the fresh start. If they continue mismanage they economy, if they can revive economy, if they can't find capital to invest in their economy, they will quickly go back into the same debt trap.
I'm not sure if there is enough political will to pull economic miracle out of bankruptcy, however the alternative of staying in Eurozone and paying unbelievable mountain of debt is a better alternative. It is like choosing a lesser evil.

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## LeBrok

> The IMF is a large creditor to Greece. But the main is ESFS mentioned above, which is essentialy the European taxpayer.
> Via ESFS and others, Belgium with 11 million inhabitants is estimated to lose 11 billion Euro.
> East European taxpayers also have to help pay for the pensions payed to the Greek people while most of them get a pension which is far less than Greek pensions.
> How can you justify this?
> Spain and Portugal are still having tough times getting their economy healthy again, but slow recovery seems to have started.
> How can you explain these countries they should pay for the mess in Greece?


The easiest way to deal with Greece debt is to print this 400 billion Euro, or whatever it is right now, and give it to lenders, or just enough to keep the lenders alive. In 15 trillion Eruozone economy it won't cause massive inflation. Maybe extra 1 percent for couple of years. However it will produce a precedence of easy way out for other Eurozone countries in financial trouble. What if Italy and Spain will default on their massive debts? The party might be over for Eurozone.
On other hand, if the defaulting is in a size of one country a decade, it will be quite bearable for finances of Eurozone, and the union to continue. Actually it would be unrealistic to consider that all the countries of Eurozone will have perfect economy and finances all the time. Occasional debt default should be built into the system.

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## LeBrok

> Yetos
> No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.
> 
> I had many Greek friends, some of them lived in Serbia, and all of them I know as very industrious people. Who thinks that Greeks are lazy he or she watch media and doesn't know reality. Politicians generally in world are more or less same, and they are prone for corruption, but in which country politicians are "flowers".


 Yes, Greeks are very industrious, but not in Greece. They left Greece and run their businesses in other countries. Greek political and economic reality is not good for business. Business people and capital left Greece, and what is left are government workers. Sure I'm exaggerating, but there is some truth in it.
Now smart young people who can speak english and german are leaving Greece, because of lack of work. 




> Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.


 I have a feeling that you want Yetos to feel good.

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## LeBrok

> Merkel maybe has said that, but there are other leaders who call for the cancelation of the referendum.


 Can you share few names with us? 
I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.

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## LeBrok

> *Bankers will not take our carbonhydrogens so cheap!!!!!
> neither our sea neither our mountains,
> neither our ports, neither our roads
> but most of all our souls 
> 
> 
> I HOPE NOTHING
> I FEAR NOTHING
> I AM FREE
> *Ν kazantzakis


 I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.

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## Maleth

> Yetos
> No matter in which way this crisis will finish, I think that Greece has bright future.


Thats what everyone hopes.




> Why I believe in Greece? Greece has very smart and capable people, it is the most important resource. Greece has very good position in Mediterranean, all sea paths lead to Greece and via Balkans and Middle Europe is extraordinary link toward the heart of industry of Europe, Germany. Greece has a lot of friendly countries in the world which can help to exits from difficulties. Greece can attract large investments about which some others can only dream. Greece has specific soul, which no one country has, which makes it unique and gives strength and Greece have wisdom forged centuries.


Just a small question....So what went wrong? what is Greece waiting for with all these awesome attributes? With all these hopes and believes things should NOT have come to this.

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## Yetos

> That's why Europe has suspended negotiations till after the referendum.
> 
> Tsipras anounced the refendum in Greece while Varoufakis was at the same time negotiating with the European finance ministers. Is this serious? It looks more like playing games to stay in power.


That was a desicion of Angela,
which for 1rst time, after that I started to like/respect her,

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## Yetos

> Can you share few names with us? 
> I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.


All except Angela,
tuesday was a 4 hours tele-coferance among EUgroup and rest,
personally I expected Tsipras to sign the 25/06/2015 proposals
but ended again no solution,
After that only Angela accepting the choice of Greeks she declared that she will not speak again until referendum ends,
and force the rest not to openly discuss the subject,
told you it is the first time I could click a Like to her

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## Kardu

> Can you share few names with us? 
> I only heard voices saying that referendum is too late and therefore will not be legally binding, therefore inconsequential. To call for cancellation requires involvement in Greek political process. I don't think that any of foreign leaders is in a position or have political interest to call for cancellation. I think your paraphrasing of foreign leaders was too liberal, and nobody literally called for cancellation of Greek referendum.


"However German Chancellor Angela Merkel responded swiftly that Germany won't enter into new aid negotiations with Athens before Greece's weekend referendum, while her deputy urged the left-wing government to cancel the plebiscite."

http://news.yahoo.com/european-stock...113058749.html

"Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on Tuesday became the first European leader to openly back the departure of Greece's far-left government as he urged Greeks to accept bailout proposals in a crucial referendum."

http://www.thelocal.es/20150630/span...eek-government

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## Yetos

> I think Buddhism goes well with this philosophy.


no
Buddism is a religion,
every religion inspires some fear,
that is Nikos Kazantzakis,
an untamed soul that was expelled by church when he wrote
''Jesus Christ re-crufified''
if you haven't read him, take a try,
he is fantastic




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Kazantzakis


there are 2 στηλαι tompstones stelae I like
one is the above 
second is the 'πραττω ΚΑΤΑ ΤΟΝ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΕΑΥΤΟΥ'
meaning according my consious or my gurdian angel
Jim Morrison's tomp

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## ElHorsto

> Please. You shouldn't take Friedman serious. The guy is about as credible as the late Tom Clancy, with the difference Clancy actually explicitly wrote _fiction_ and called it fiction. 
> 
> I honestly do not know how Friedman makes his money, because he's notoriously bad at predicting the future:
> Back in 1991, Friedman wrote a book called "_The Coming War With Japan_", in which he predicted that Japan would rise as a superpower and challenge the United States in a war. Which, needless to say, didn't happen. Instead, which Friedman spectacularly managed to somehow overlook, China became the largest economy in Asia. But it doesn't stop there, because the guy didn't get any smarter: in 2009, he published a book called "_The next 100 years_", which is even more lunatic in its predictions: in the book, he "predicts" that Russia fragments, China returns into the Warring States period and Japan (again) re-establishes the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity sphere. He claims that Poland will become a superpower annexing large parts of Eastern Europe (including European Russia), and around circa 2050 he has a world war III between Poland, Turkey (or should I say, the New Ottoman Empire  ) and Japan on one side and the United States on the other. Which the United States, of course, win.
> 
> He's the chair of an so-called "intelligence" company but doesn't even understand basic economics, demographic developments (otherwise he would have noticed that Japan is facing a steep demographic decline), nor could he foresee the emergence of the Daeesh in Syria. And he would have noticed that 2015 Japan still is economically stagnant. In summary, if Friedman was actually honest with himself, and with the world, he should start writing techno thriller fiction like the late Clancy, and not pretend that he's a genius who has "figured it all out" with access to "secret information" that nobody else seems to have.


Yes, he possibly also expresses his wishful thoughts. I don't take him serious in that sense to believe his predictions. I hope he will be wrong again. But it is still very interesting, because he is respected and Stratfor is market leader. And some of what he says is still plausible. The risk of conflicts has obviously increased as EURO-countries start to blame each-other.

EDIT: And to save his honour, making predictions is always difficult, especially concerning the future. Most famous stock market predictors are also wrong most of the time. Yet their underlying arguments can be fundamentally sound. It's that reality remains chaotic to a large extent, regardless how good you analyze. But yes, at least his predictions for 2050 are most likely pure marketing buzz.

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## Garrick

> anyway Fiscal union in EU is something that will be discussed for few years more, but I can not accept centralization,


Yetos
I agree with Angela, monetary union without fiscal union cannot functioning properly. Common fiscal policies in Eurozone are necessary. Of course, you are right, is it require more centralization, yes, although solutions can be innovative. Fiscal union is logical path but not easy. Change should, among other things, redistribution spending from budgets countries members to the budget one currency union. It requires political decisions, not only economic. Countries members should be prepare for change and determined to carry it through to the end. If someone has vision of Federal Europe it requires much more things, but fiscal union is significant step forward.

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## LeBrok

> Yes, he possibly also expresses his wishful thoughts. I don't take him serious in that sense to believe his predictions. I hope we will be wrong again. But it is still very interesting, because he is respected and Stratfor is market leader. And some of what he says is still plausible. The risk of conflicts has obviously increased as EURO-countries start to blame each-other.


It is mostly plausible to people who are naturally drawn to such disastrous scenarios. It is more about personality than reality. The unhappiness and disagreements obviously is high in EU at the moment, but it is huge exaggeration to imagine that it can end up with conflicts, military altercation or even war.

To go from massacre, poverty and hatred of WW2 to European Union of many cooperating nations and ethnicities in less than 50 years was an extraordinary achievement and evolution of European psyche. Such tremendous transformation of Europe denotes very powerful and natural forces consolidating it. Forces which can't be undermined by, minor or not, inconvenience of some people of members. Forces like economic cooperation, free movements of goods, services and people, granting freedom of work and location to people of EU, equalizing social and economic developments of members. EU gives people a pride to belong to such powerful Union (not unlike US citizens). How anyone can even speculate that European Union can disintegrate due to economic hiccups, stagnation in some countries, possible bankruptcy of Greece, or due to a notion that Europeans couldn't create a perfect Union in short 25 years of its assistance? Things which are rather minor, fixable and adjustable in grand skim of things. Members are free to stay and free to go. New members come since the recession and nobody leaves. Heck, even the communist government of Greece wants to stay!
Paraphrasing Star Wars: "EU force is strong". :Grin:

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## ElHorsto

> It is mostly plausible to people who are naturally drawn to such disastrous scenarios. It is more about personality than reality. The unhappiness and disagreements obviously is high in EU at the moment, but it is huge exaggeration to imagine that it can end up with conflicts, military altercation or even war.


1. He was talking about Europe, not just EU.
2. It is already happening (Macedonia, Ukraine, Greece is very close if it defaults like Argentina 2001)




> To go from massacre, poverty and hatred of WW2 to European Union of many cooperating nations and ethnicities in less than 50 years was an extraordinary achievement and evolution of European psyche. Such tremendous transformation of Europe denotes very powerful and natural forces consolidating it. Forces which can't be undermined by, minor or not, inconvenience of some people of members. Forces like economic cooperation, free movements of goods, services and people, granting freedom of work and location to people of EU, equalizing social and economic developments of members. EU gives people a pride to belong to such powerful Union (not unlike US citizens). How anyone can even speculate that European Union can disintegrate due to economic hiccups, stagnation in some countries, possible bankruptcy of Greece, or due to a notion that Europeans couldn't create a perfect Union in short 25 years of its assistance? Things which are rather minor, fixable and adjustable in grand skim of things. Members are free to stay and free to go. New members come since the recession and nobody leaves. Heck, even the communist government of Greece wants to stay!
> Paraphrasing Star Wars: "EU force is strong".


That's all well and good, but my concern is not EU but the EURO, which is already showing it's failures that were predicted not only by Friedman.

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## Angela

> Yes, he possibly also expresses his wishful thoughts. I don't take him serious in that sense to believe his predictions. I hope he will be wrong again. But it is still very interesting, because he is respected and Stratfor is market leader. And some of what he says is still plausible. The risk of conflicts has obviously increased as EURO-countries start to blame each-other.
> 
> EDIT: And to save his honour, making predictions is always difficult, especially concerning the future. Most famous stock market predictors are also wrong most of the time. Yet their underlying arguments can be fundamentally sound. It's that reality remains chaotic to a large extent, regardless how good you analyze. But yes, at least his predictions for 2050 are most likely pure marketing buzz.


Well, I certainly don't wish the Eurozone or any European country to fail, and neither does Friedman or any other American economic or political policy maker. It's in America's interest to have a prosperous Europe. He may be unduly pessimistic, but I don't see where, if you listen to the whole speech, you can find a flaw in his analysis of either European history or the Eurozone or how the Greek debt crisis should be handled.Also, nobody ever loses money being pessimistic about human behavior, and he is in the business of advising corporations and and wealthy people how to protect their assets. 

I can tell you he speaks for many people in the markets. I realize it offends Europeans to hear it, and I apologize for that, but Americans have been wary of European fratricidal tendencies since the days of George Washington. It's also refreshing to hear the issues discussed with the kind of directness, clarity and no nonsense pragmatism which seem to me so sorely lacking in the expositions of continental European leaders. 

To be brutally honest, I actually used to have more hope for Europe. Just one year of reading anthrofora disabused me of those notions. Scratch the surface and all that nonsense is still there.

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## Sile

I prefer Greece to leave the EU and save itself, ...................but if the need is to retain it in the EU, then a change in something needs to happen. Maybe do like the danes and swedes do, they are in the EU but use their own currency.
or
the Swiss system, not in the EU, charge costs in Euro and pay in swiss-francs.

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## ElHorsto

> Well, I certainly don't wish the Eurozone or any European country to fail, and neither does Friedman or any other American economic or political policy maker. It's in America's interest to have a prosperous Europe.


Sure, but at the same time also America has it's own wish of how Europe and Russia should be, that's normal.




> He may be unduly pessimistic, but I don't see where, if you listen to the whole speech, you can find a flaw in his analysis of either European history or the Eurozone or how the Greek debt crisis should be handled.Also, nobody ever loses money being pessimistic about human behavior, and he is in the business of advising corporations and and wealthy people how to protect their assets. 
> 
> I can tell you he speaks for many people in the markets. I realize it offends Europeans to hear it, and I apologize for that, but Americans have been wary of European fratricidal tendencies since the days of George Washington. It's also refreshing to hear the issues discussed with the kind of directness, clarity and no nonsense pragmatism which seem to me so sorely lacking in the expositions of continental European leaders. 
> 
> To be brutally honest, I actually used to have more hope for Europe. Just one year of reading anthrofora disabused me of those notions. Scratch the surface and all that nonsense is still there.


As a European, I completely agree. Europe's 70 year anniversary of almost peace is an exception, and many seem to forget it. This success was due to the memory of the horrors of WW2 and the resulting care and pessimism. This memory is starting to fade again as war witnesses die. EURO-zone in particular might face similar problems like Yugoslavia in the 1980s: in crisis, every ethnicity starts to blame the other for Yugoslavia's/EU's problems. I'm not painting horror pictures, just pointing out some similarities. Many europeans believe that this could happen only in the Balkans (for genetic or whatever reasons), but this is a dangerous fallacy. Take for example Sweden and Denmark, the most peaceful countries of Europe today: they still hold the world record in number of mutual wars. And let's also not forget the extra-european migrants. No reason to be light-minded.

----------


## Yetos

Guys there 2 Friedman

1 Milton Friedman
2 george Friedman

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos
> I agree with Angela, monetary union without fiscal union cannot functioning properly. Common fiscal policies in Eurozone are necessary. Of course, you are right, is it require more centralization, yes, although solutions can be innovative. Fiscal union is logical path but not easy. Change should, among other things, redistribution spending from budgets countries members to the budget one currency union. It requires political decisions, not only economic. Countries members should be prepare for change and determined to carry it through to the end. If someone has vision of Federal Europe it requires much more things, but fiscal union is significant step forward.


Garrick *Fiscal Union is something BIGGGG BUT ALSO DANGEROUSSS*

*THINK a fiscal Union corruption, or dept?*

still need to be discused much much more,
Centralization in Europe is something that must not be done, we are doomed if such thing happens


EUROPE HAS STILL A LONG WAY AHEAD

----------


## oriental

There is a third Friedman - New York Times Columnist Tom Friedman who married a rich heiress and became a Neocon.

P.S. Milton Friedman, the right-wing Chicago economics professor is dead.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> It is mostly plausible to people who are naturally drawn to such disastrous scenarios. It is more about personality than reality. The unhappiness and disagreements obviously is high in EU at the moment, but it is huge exaggeration to imagine that it can end up with conflicts, military altercation or even war.
> 
> To go from massacre, poverty and hatred of WW2 to European Union of many cooperating nations and ethnicities in less than 50 years was an extraordinary achievement and evolution of European psyche. Such tremendous transformation of Europe denotes very powerful and natural forces consolidating it. Forces which can't be undermined by, minor or not, inconvenience of some people of members. Forces like economic cooperation, free movements of goods, services and people, granting freedom of work and location to people of EU, equalizing social and economic developments of members. EU gives people a pride to belong to such powerful Union (not unlike US citizens). How anyone can even speculate that European Union can disintegrate due to economic hiccups, stagnation in some countries, possible bankruptcy of Greece, or due to a notion that Europeans couldn't create a perfect Union in short 25 years of its assistance? Things which are rather minor, fixable and adjustable in grand skim of things. Members are free to stay and free to go. New members come since the recession and nobody leaves. Heck, even the communist government of Greece wants to stay!
> Paraphrasing Star Wars: "EU force is strong".


None knows what the hell is the European union.  . Neither I

----------


## Yetos

> It is mostly plausible to people who are naturally drawn to such disastrous scenarios. It is more about personality than reality. The unhappiness and disagreements obviously is high in EU at the moment, but it is huge exaggeration to imagine that it can end up with conflicts, military altercation or even war.
> 
> To go from massacre, poverty and hatred of WW2 to European Union of many cooperating nations and ethnicities in less than 50 years was an extraordinary achievement and evolution of European psyche. Such tremendous transformation of Europe denotes very powerful and natural forces consolidating it. Forces which can't be undermined by, minor or not, inconvenience of some people of members. Forces like economic cooperation, free movements of goods, services and people, granting freedom of work and location to people of EU, equalizing social and economic developments of members. EU gives people a pride to belong to such powerful Union (not unlike US citizens). How anyone can even speculate that European Union can disintegrate due to economic hiccups, stagnation in some countries, possible bankruptcy of Greece, or due to a notion that Europeans couldn't create a perfect Union in short 25 years of its assistance? Things which are rather minor, fixable and adjustable in grand skim of things. Members are free to stay and free to go. New members come since the recession and nobody leaves. Heck, even the communist government of Greece wants to stay!
> Paraphrasing Star Wars: "EU force is strong".


hmm
No members are free to stay, *but difficult to go*, as difficult as to enter,
and do not look the ex-communistic countries,
that was a hurry-up process, and people there due to communism, had an inner solidarity, and a unification to leave away from whatever was communistic or Russian, so they accepted fast EU and adopted a new way of life,

there is no substractum on how to leave the Zone or the Community (Eurozone EEC)
neither there is a CARTA on how you can leave,

*and the communist are not in power in Greece,*
there is a lot of difference among radical Left and communists
*THEY HATE EACH OTHER
the hate is so big that Golden dawn is more favour to each other than among them





*
one is kastro che
the other Marx lenin

----------


## Piro Ilir

> 1. He was talking about Europe, not just EU.
> 2. It is already happening (Macedonia, Ukraine, Greece is very close if it defaults like Argentina 2001)
> 
> 
> 
> That's all well and good, but my concern is not EU but the EURO, which is already showing it's failures that were predicted not only by Friedman.


EUR is ok, as long as Germany will support it.

----------


## Piro Ilir

USA and Europe are completely different issues. How many nations had constitute first American state, and how many the European Union. Too many nations in Europe. It's a big mess . They don't like each other 




> Well, I certainly don't wish the Eurozone or any European country to fail, and neither does Friedman or any other American economic or political policy maker. It's in America's interest to have a prosperous Europe. He may be unduly pessimistic, but I don't see where, if you listen to the whole speech, you can find a flaw in his analysis of either European history or the Eurozone or how the Greek debt crisis should be handled.Also, nobody ever loses money being pessimistic about human behavior, and he is in the business of advising corporations and and wealthy people how to protect their assets. 
> 
> I can tell you he speaks for many people in the markets. I realize it offends Europeans to hear it, and I apologize for that, but Americans have been wary of European fratricidal tendencies since the days of George Washington. It's also refreshing to hear the issues discussed with the kind of directness, clarity and no nonsense pragmatism which seem to me so sorely lacking in the expositions of continental European leaders. 
> 
> To be brutally honest, I actually used to have more hope for Europe. Just one year of reading anthrofora disabused me of those notions. Scratch the surface and all that nonsense is still there.

----------


## Garrick

> None knows what the hell is the European union. . Neither I


European Union is not hell, on contrary, it is realization of centuries-old aspirations of people of Europe.

After all, Albania received enormous assistance from the European Union to skip backwardness.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I prefer Greece to leave the EU and save itself, ...................but if the need is to retain it in the EU, then a change in something needs to happen. Maybe do like the danes and swedes do, they are in the EU but use their own currency.
> or
> the Swiss system, not in the EU, charge costs in Euro and pay in swiss-francs.


Greeks will never leave the EU. Because they need the EU financing of their country. If they leave, they can't hold the high and healthy standard of lifestyle . I doubt you are sincere here

----------


## Taranis

> Yes, he possibly also expresses his wishful thoughts. I don't take him serious in that sense to believe his predictions. I hope he will be wrong again. But it is still very interesting, because he is respected and Stratfor is market leader. And some of what he says is still plausible. The risk of conflicts has obviously increased as EURO-countries start to blame each-other.


In my opinion, it is _entirely_ wishful thinking on his end. And I think so because he was wrong in 1991, he was even more wrong in 2009, why should this trend change? The two quarreling European countries _par excellence_ of the first half of the 20th century, France and Germany are both in the EU, in NATO, in the Schengen treaty, etc. To make things further, Germany of today, while economically formidable, is military neutered (in part by the treaty unified Germany had to sign with the four old occupational powers). The same applies for the other EU members. In so far, I don't see any conflict to spark from within the EU. If there's any danger of war brewing in Europe, it is at the EU/Russian interface (especially with light to the events in the Ukraine), and even that I don't hold that for _particularly_ likely.




> EDIT: And to save his honour, making predictions is always difficult, especially concerning the future. Most famous stock market predictors are also wrong most of the time. Yet their underlying arguments can be fundamentally sound. It's that reality remains chaotic to a large extent, regardless how good you analyze. But yes, at least his predictions for 2050 are most likely pure marketing buzz.


Honestly, in my opinion Friedman is about as a reliable source for predictions as reading tarot cards. Heck, even _Gerhard Schröder_ was more accurately able to 'predict' the future back in 2003 by saying going into Iraq because of WMDs which may or may not be there would be a really bad idea...  :Rolleyes:

----------


## ElHorsto

> In my opinion, it is _entirely_ wishful thinking on his end. And I think so because he was wrong in 1991, he was even more wrong in 2009, why should this trend change? The two quarreling European countries _par excellence_ of the first half of the 20th century, France and Germany are both in the EU, in NATO, in the Schengen treaty, etc. To make things further, Germany of today, while economically formidable, is military neutered (in part by the treaty unified Germany had to sign with the four old occupational powers). The same applies for the other EU members. In so far, I don't see any conflict to spark from within the EU. If there's any danger of war brewing in Europe, it is at the EU/Russian interface (especially with light to the events in the Ukraine), and even that I don't hold that for _particularly_ likely.


I'm nowhere suggesting that Germany might become a military threat. I even doubt that Germany is acting politically only in it's own interest, but that is a different topic.
You are right with respect to NATO in the EU. And yes, the EU-Russian (more NATO-Russian) interface is the hotspot currently.
But the EURO is stirring-up all old resentiments due to the economic imbalances it creates. I'm not saying that the EURO stirrs wars tomorrow, but it clearly has the potential to create foundation for serious conflicts 10-20 years in future. A rigid EU-regime can suppress it like the USSR did, but this is a time play. Think of Versailles, how many years it took until the desire for revenge came to the surface. Another way to suppress animosities is a common enemy.




> Honestly, in my opinion Friedman is about as a reliable source for predictions as reading tarot cards. Heck, even _Gerhard Schröder_ was more accurately able to 'predict' the future back in 2003 by saying going into Iraq because of WMDs which may or may not be there would be a really bad idea...


As I said, we can skip his predictions. But his analyses of the past and present are worth listening to.

----------


## Yetos

LATE NIGHT DANCING AT ATHENS




come on guys where the HELL you can have such fun, only in HELLas

----------


## Maleth

> To go from massacre, poverty and hatred of WW2 to European Union of many cooperating nations and ethnicities *in less than 50 years* was an extraordinary achievement and evolution of European psyche.


we thank technology for having prove and reminders of where Europe is coming from only just a few decades ago. Pity we dont have the same for the misery and chaos on many occasions in the thousand years that preceded that. Maybe we should stop romanticising history documentary's and movies and focus more on the realities of pique, the very few privileged that could afford to portrait themselves in paintings and the real hardship that most people had to go through.

----------


## bicicleur

> hmm
> No members are free to stay, *but difficult to go*, as difficult as to enter,
> and do not look the ex-communistic countries,
> that was a hurry-up process, and people there due to communism, had an inner solidarity, and a unification to leave away from whatever was communistic or Russian, so they accepted fast EU and adopted a new way of life,
> 
> there is no substractum on how to leave the Zone or the Community (Eurozone EEC)
> neither there is a CARTA on how you can leave,
> 
> *and the communist are not in power in Greece,*
> ...


so many small parties in Greece
to me - from the outside - they are all the same

----------


## bicicleur

> LATE NIGHT DANCING AT ATHENS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> come on guys where the HELL you can have such fun, only in HELLas


i think the party is over

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick *Fiscal Union is something BIGGGG BUT ALSO DANGEROUSSS*
> 
> *THINK a fiscal Union corruption, or dept?*
> 
> still need to be discused much much more,
> Centralization in Europe is something that must not be done, we are doomed if such thing happens
> 
> 
> EUROPE HAS STILL A LONG WAY AHEAD


Every system has advantages and disadvantages, ideal system doesn't exist.

Still all things summed and subtracted, Fiscal union is better solution.

For long-term recovery Euro zone and saving the currency - euro, Fiscal union is probably only real solution.

For corruption, Balkan countries are high in the list, leading Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia, but other Balkan countries, including Serbia and other ex YU are not far.

I think, it is much better for corruption that strict control exists at the level of large entity.

Just the awareness that there is a control on the level of large entity (Euro zone; EU) has a positive effect on reducing corruption.

And not only corruption, for example better control at the level of larger entity means preventing making large costs by countries members and amounts numbers above permitted, limited capacities and the economy of a country, and established strict rules at the level of larger entity.

Fiscal union can be regulated by rules established by countries members, it is not negation of democracy, but reinforcement of democracy and the prohibition of abuse by governments which are irresponsible.

----------


## bicicleur

first thing to do in Europe is reduce the number of politicians drastically
to many intermediate governing levels
to many overlapping structures
to many commitees
to many rulers in their own small empire
we don't need new structures
we need to break down the unnecessary structures first

civilians should feel again they have their own faith in hands, and don't have to rely on government for everything
I think that is the main difference with America

----------


## Yetos

> first thing to do in Europe is reduce the number of politicians drastically
> to many intermediate governing levels
> to many overlapping structures
> to many commitees
> to many rulers in their own small empire
> we don't need new structures
> we need to break down the unnecessary structures first
> 
> civilians should feel again they have their own faith in hands, and don't have to rely on government for everything
> I think that is the main difference with America


just cut their sallaries at half,
they will be reduced automatically,
Every one wants to save us and take glory,  :Useless: 
but not without the 'price'  :Innocent: 


I think the 'old' punishments must return, and judgess must hunt politicians and parties more than simple civilians,
either we are facing a 'trust', as Kropotkin started his theory,
anyway I am not an anarchist, but we must secure as civilians and as humans that no such trust will exist

----------


## LeBrok

> we thank technology for having prove and reminders of where Europe is coming from only just a few decades ago. Pity we dont have the same for the misery and chaos on many occasions in the thousand years that preceded that. Maybe we should stop romanticising history documentary's and movies and focus more on the realities of pique, the very few privileged that could afford to portrait themselves in paintings and the real hardship that most people had to go through.


I wrote this few years ago:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...813#post393813

----------


## LeBrok

> first thing to do in Europe is reduce the number of politicians drastically


 Yes, but how we are going to improve the quality of politicians? Shouldn't we elect the smartest and most honest of us all to rule over millions?




> to many intermediate governing levels
> to many overlapping structures
> to many commitees
> to many rulers in their own small empire
> we don't need new structures
> we need to break down the unnecessary structures first


 Beauty in simplicity.




> civilians should feel again they have their own faith in hands, and don't have to rely on government for everything
> I think that is the main difference with America


 I like the Swiss referendum system. We should be able to cast our votes on many issues from our computers and smartphones. 
I can do banking online and move thousands of dollars, I can log into government site and update info, pay taxes, etc. But we can't figure out a voting system online?

----------


## bicicleur

> Yes, but how we are going to improve the quality of politicians? Shouldn't we elect the smartest and most honest of us all to rule over millions?


sometimes I think people are to stupid for democracy
they elect to many smooth talkers telling the stories they want to hear
and press don't help to keep people informed either nowadays, it's all about sensation and news of the day, never looking any further

----------


## Maleth

> I wrote this few years ago:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...813#post393813


enjoyed reading that, thanks. So real and ironic considering today's lament compared with that of the not so distant past.

----------


## bicicleur

> I wrote this few years ago:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...813#post393813


good point

people take to much for granted and tend to blame governement or capitalism or whoever for whatever misfortune occurs

----------


## Angela

Science and technology, and, I would maintain, for all their flaws, capitalism and democracy. changed our health. our standard of living, and our control over our own destinies. They also gave us more effective tools for our murderous impulses. Now we even have the capability through chemical and biological weapons to wipe out the human race. With nuclear weapons we can also destroy the planet. 

Education isn't enough. Democracy isn't enough. The German people elected a Nazi government. The Gaza elected Hamas. Doctors chose children for medical experimentation at Auschwitz. People in the Balkans tried to "ethnically cleanse" one another not even a generation ago. We now have a young American raised electrical engineer, an athlete, well-adjusted and popular, who becomes so "radicalized" that he butchers unarmed Marine reservists, young men and women with whom he might have gone to school.

Somebody tell me the solution. We're still savages; we just have better tools.

----------


## LeBrok

> sometimes I think people are to stupid for democracy
> they elect to many smooth talkers telling the stories they want to hear
> and press don't help to keep people informed either nowadays, it's all about sensation and news of the day, never looking any further


Definitively their should be tests to qualify for governance positions. Doctors need to pass multiple exams, so do lawyers and other professionals. But the most important profession, which cam make or brake the nation is up for grabs for any smooth talker. How about at least an IQ test, clean financial and criminal records, and governance graduation system? First you need to be successful in running institution or corporation, then city, then province, till you pass these tests to become a president.

For electorate and election I would try "multi stage" proxy voting. The fact is that most people are not interested in politics, especially in countries of high economic standards, either they vote for the looks or they don't vote at all. In my city only 40% of voters turns out on an election day, sometimes even less. 
I would make votes transferable. Meaning that one (not interested) can reward his vote to a person which he/she finds trustworthy, smart and interested in politics. This chosen person could take part in election, in name of these many uninterested voters, making obviously a smarter political and economic decision than original voters would. 
Or this person could transfer all his/her voting powers to others, and so on up the ladder, till one owns majority of votes and is elected to Parliament or as a President. This would be no party electoral system. Just a chain of people choosing the smart and trustworthy people they know, interested in politics and governance. There would be check and balances installed to keep all honest, like no selling votes and renewing proxies on a yearly base.

Would it work?

----------


## LeBrok

> Science and technology, and, I would maintain, for all their flaws, capitalism and democracy. changed our health. our standard of living, and our control over our own destinies. They also gave us more effective tools for our murderous impulses. Now we even have the capability through chemical and biological weapons to wipe out the human race. With nuclear weapons we can also destroy the planet. 
> 
> Education isn't enough. Democracy isn't enough. The German people elected a Nazi government. The Gaza elected Hamas. Doctors chose children for medical experimentation at Auschwitz. People in the Balkans tried to "ethnically cleanse" one another not even a generation ago. We now have a young American raised electrical engineer, an athlete, well-adjusted and popular, who becomes so "radicalized" that he butchers unarmed Marine reservists, young men and women with whom he might have gone to school.
> 
> Somebody tell me the solution. We're still savages; we just have better tools.


Wow, someone woke up a pessimist today. ;)

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Science and technology, and, I would maintain, for all their flaws, capitalism and democracy. changed our health. our standard of living, and our control over our own destinies. They also gave us more effective tools for our murderous impulses. Now we even have the capability through chemical and biological weapons to wipe out the human race. With nuclear weapons we can also destroy the planet. 
> 
> Education isn't enough. Democracy isn't enough. The German people elected a Nazi government. The Gaza elected Hamas. Doctors chose children for medical experimentation at Auschwitz. People in the Balkans tried to "ethnically cleanse" one another not even a generation ago. We now have a young American raised electrical engineer, an athlete, well-adjusted and popular, who becomes so "radicalized" that he butchers unarmed Marine reservists, young men and women with whom he might have gone to school.
> 
> Somebody tell me the solution. We're still savages; we just have better tools.


Democracy is a process. Everything need time. At least, the situation in Balkans generally talking is better than was during the cold war and earlier too. The democracy has many problems, but is the only way we have on to a better world. For me the democracy is almost like a religion. It can save us all. It mean freedom, and freedom works.

----------


## DuPidh

> European Union is not hell, on contrary, it is realization of centuries-old aspirations of people of Europe.
> 
> After all, Albania received enormous assistance from the European Union to skip backwardness.


Its true that EU is the aspiration of small countries of Europe. I don't think is all good about EU. Among others if countries like Albania become members of EU run the risk of brain drain. The few capable people of the country will look for better paying jobs in the most powerful members of the union. Albania has not gotten any significant economic help from the EU so far. Most of the help has been moral support. The work of emigrants around the world, illegal activities to some extent have been responsible for whatever advance Albanian has had. The only help they have given is their governance model where different point of views are respected. I personally wished EU did not exist.

----------


## Sirius

DuPidh... there below your avatar, it says your are in México.. Are you Mexican? Did you immigrate to Mexico? 


Or you just randomly choosed that option when you signed in?


Your last post centers on your opinión of Albania. I would not comment on that, but you finish your comment with




> I personally wished EU did not exist.



I am surprised that a Mexican has an opinion about that. 


The existance of the EU, as an economic entity, do not affect us (Mexicans) negatively in the least, as I see it. 


Could you elaborate?

----------


## bicicleur

I hope the new deal with Greece will work, but I'm pessimistic about that.
I think Grexit would have been better. For Greece and for EU.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I hope the new deal with Greece will work, but I'm pessimistic about that.
> I think Grexit would have been better. For Greece and for EU.


Probably, on the future will be a grexit. I see lots of problems for Greece on the future

----------


## LeBrok

> I hope the new deal with Greece will work, but I'm pessimistic about that.
> I think Grexit would have been better. For Greece and for EU.


If Greeks could reform and improve their economy they could get out of this mountain of debt in couple of decades. If they could double their GDP in 15 years, plus inflation would nimble at the debt, debt value will shrink to 1/3 when compared to GDP. They would need to just pay off the interest only, and the debt will be shrinking with time.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> If Greeks could reform and improve their economy they could get out of this mountain of debt in couple of decades. If they could double their GDP in 15 years, plus inflation would nimble at the debt, debt value will shrink to 1/3 when compared to GDP. They would need to just pay off the interest only, and the debt will be shrinking with time.


Before reforming the economy, they should to reform their own mentality. But this will be very difficult, soon at least.

----------


## Garrick

> I personally wished EU did not exist.


European Union is the best expression of aspirations of European nations.

I think in the future EU will further strengthen, not only in terms of expansion, but primary institutional.

----------


## bicicleur

> If Greeks could reform and improve their economy they could get out of this mountain of debt in couple of decades. If they could double their GDP in 15 years, plus inflation would nimble at the debt, debt value will shrink to 1/3 when compared to GDP. They would need to just pay off the interest only, and the debt will be shrinking with time.


Greece pays virtually no intrests. They have the highest debt rate of the whole EU, but pay less intrests than most EU countries.
They get their money virtually for free. And when the new loan will - if ever - be paid back nobody knows.
Debt relief is something that European taxpayers wouldn't accept.
Debt relief is not the main issue either.
The main issue is the reform of the Greek society and economy.
I don't believe giving more money will help.
I believe Grexit would have been the right shocktherapy. But politicians were not brave enough to let it happen.
Maybe Grexit will come. IMO within 5 years there will be a new Greek crisis.

Greece should never have been allowed to the Euro. They didn't meet the requierements. They falsified their accounts and EU politcians knew about that.
They said 'politics should surpass economics in crucial moments'.
Now they say that 'history has shown that after long discussions with all fractions the EU Parliament allways ends up making the right decision'.
No journalist asked them why then Greece was allowed to the Euro in the first place.
I'm so fed up with all these smooth talkers who are acting totally irresponsable.

----------


## bicicleur

> Before reforming the economy, they should to reform their own mentality. But this will be very difficult, soon at least.


yes, shocktherapy is what they need, giving more money won't help

look at the referendum they held, the voted no against reform
yet they play another act to get more intrest-free loans without fixed payback date

how stupid can you be?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> European Union is the best expression of aspirations of European nations.
> 
> I think in the future EU will further strengthen, not only in terms of expansion, but primary institutional.


EU, need a lot of reforms too. They need more centralization I think. Somehow they need to build a state, as USA did. For the moment is a big mess

----------


## Piro Ilir

> yes, shocktherapy is what they need, giving more money won't help
> 
> look at the referendum they held, the voted no against reform
> yet they play another act to get more intrest-free loans without fixed payback date
> 
> how stupid can you be?


The whole EU program of help will failure. After that, they will blame again the troika and the Germany. Already they are calling Germans with disgusting epithets. Greece need a new start

----------


## DuPidh

> The whole EU program of help will failure. After that, they will blame again the troika and the Germany. Already they are calling Germans with disgusting epithets. Greece need a new start


I agree with your observations!
Without billions of dollars Germany gave to Greece to rebuild the country, Greece would have been economically another Balkan poor house.
Now Greeks not only don't appreciate German generosity but they curse and offend this nation that shared part of their wealth with Greeks. 
The only thing I don't understand is how come the Germans could be so patience with peasants of Greece?

----------


## Yetos

still hide behind Mexican flag?
*

DO YOU NEED A MASK TO POST?*

----------


## LeBrok

> I agree with your observations!
> Without billions of dollars Germany gave to Greece to rebuild the country, Greece would have been economically another Balkan poor house.
> Now Greeks not only don't appreciate German generosity but they curse and offend this nation that shared part of their wealth with Greeks. 
> The only thing I don't understand is how come the Germans could be so patience with peasants of Greece?


Match your flag to your IP address, and yes everybody knows now that you are Albanian.

----------


## Yetos

has anybody read the leaks and plans of each one?


Shauble plan B
he offered 50 billions to Greece in 2015 and a total 120 billion E if Greece left Eurozone till 2018
nothing mentioned about an exit from EEC.
so much money to achieve Grexit!!!! why?
that man is always predicted, but keeps an enigma, and I do not want to die before find what is in his mind,
does anyone see what is in his mind?



Baroyfakis Varoyfakis plan B
he would hack the taxisnet matrix numbers, the system of taxes is connected with ECB and alla banks,
we would input a bitcoin such as IOU, something like in the Kalifornia, 
and if the Grexit would prevail that would turn to bit-Drachma
if not that would solve and avoid problems from ECB capital control.
smart plan that could double triple the damage to EU economies according theirf power in EUro bill
for example that would heart Germany 4 times the damage of a Grexit but only half for countries like Bulgaria Romania,
but is illegal to hack peoples DATA

Lafazanis plan (far left platform) B
he would gather all Euro coins and bills, by invading the banks and Greek central bank, which is part of ECB, and given the army to protect and produce medicines etc etc 
then change them with other or cooperate with BRICS to support humanistic efforts and developement
Stupid plan, that could sping from a movie for a Bolsevik October


anyway for those who still did not understand
*the referendum question was noT Euro or Drachme*
it was about Yunker proposal of 25/06/2015

----------


## DuPidh

> has anybody read the leaks and plans of each one?
> 
> 
> Shauble plan B
> he offered 50 billions to Greece in 2015 and a total 120 billion E if Greece left Eurozone till 2018
> nothing mentioned about an exit from EEC.
> so much money to achieve Grexit!!!! why?
> that man is always predicted, but keeps an enigma, and I do not want to die before find what is in his mind,
> does anyone see what is in his mind?
> ...



Yes you can read my very first post where I said I am a proud citizen of Mexico but with Albanian roots. Why is so hard to accept this. One of my parents is Albo. Otherwise I would not be involved in discussions about the region.
There is nothing malice in my posts but common sense. Greeks have one small problem. The think of themselves as chosen people, but others don,t buy it! 
The future of Greece certainly is not bright. The amount of debt they have accumulated is enormous. 
In the new EU they will have no favors. There are many new EU entrants much poor than Greece that will not put up with Greek comedy of referendums. Greece has for years blocking Macedonians enter into the EU for whatever reasons, but with one ill purpose in mind. To deny Macedonians financial benefits that come from Eu membership. But for themselves shamelessly not only they want those benefits but they want more. And that shows that they are not fit to be members of a democratic organisation like EU is. How come an unfit for the EU country like Greece raise the hand to deny membership of another poor and small country like Macedonia?

----------


## Sirius

> Yes you can read my very first post where I said I am a proud citizen of Mexico but with Albanian roots. Why is so hard to accept this. One of my parents is Albo. Otherwise I would not be involved in discussions about the region


Thank you for clarifying. 


Some years ago, I participated in this very forum and I had a very rispid discussion with some Spaniards. When I entered and saw the flag, I was afraid that after that many years, they would continue attacking Mexico and Mexicans here, as they usually do. 


We Mexicans had some immigration - or people in transit - from former Yugoslavia after the unfortunate wars in the 90s. Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Albanians... almost all good people, and with a lot of symphaty for Mexicans. In general we think about all of them, as nice persons. At the very least, with us.


Having clarified your situation, I would not say anymore but this: Being that you remain in Mexico or you go elsewhere around this Continent, you will feel that some ethnic or other rivalries that seemed so important there, will dwindle and will seem unimportant with time. 


Nice day to all the forum-ers.

----------


## Yetos

> Greece pays virtually no intrests. They have the highest debt rate of the whole EU, but pay less intrests than most EU countries.
> They get their money virtually for free. And when the new loan will - if ever - be paid back nobody knows.
> Debt relief is something that European taxpayers wouldn't accept.
> Debt relief is not the main issue either.
> The main issue is the reform of the Greek society and economy.
> I don't believe giving more money will help.
> I believe Grexit would have been the right shocktherapy. But politicians were not brave enough to let it happen.
> Maybe Grexit will come. IMO within 5 years there will be a new Greek crisis.
> 
> ...


I do not deny what you say,

but you give only the one side of the coin,
as you say Greece Greece used goldman sachs, to falsify accounts, but Eu politicians knew it,
BUT ACCEPTED !!! WHY?
I think the same 'hate' against Greece must also be in the same Degree with the politicians who accept it,

*and the Eu tax payers are not paying Greece, but Goldman Sachs, But still you blame Greece,*
and can I accept that?
But why you do not blame the politicians who knew and accept to pay Goldman Sachs?

Guys isn't time for EU to learn the lesson against neo-liberians?

THE EEC and EUrozone, had no mechanism to defend in such cases,
after 2008 with Greece as victim they finally manage to ESM but still is not working with great efficiency, but is a substractum to discuss for future,

the problem of EU states to borrow with different rates/interests from privateers or foreign Bankers, is almost solved,
Afetr Greek crisis, all Money Vultures who wanted to enslave free world under the 'myth of free will world' of Milton Friedman they can not touch EU states.
it is time to stop and erase Rothschild system, *WHO FROM NAPOLEON WARS TILL TODAY THEY GET RICH BY KILLING AND ENSLAVE EUROPE*

so thanks to dirty/fallen/bad/ugly Greece EU has a mechanism of stability and secure, and is safe from FRIEDMAN's money vultures who want to enslave human beings with 'state loans'

MAYBE THE POLITICIANS WHO ACCEPTED THE FALSIFIED GREEK ACCOUNTS, KNEW ABOUT THAT BUT LET IT HAPPEN IN ORDER TO "DEFEND/ARMOR'' EU in the future,


until today, states borrowed from privateers with diferent rates, 
from this times, 
states can have same rate from ESM and ECB,
is n't that something for EU? just ask



But when comes to personal I feel much anger than you, and more hate against some kinds of my people,
who accepted millions of Euro to make trash bargains, or to corrupt society,
I feel anger for my politicians, some of them my choice, who still walk free with 'black' money in their pockets,
a hate that lead many to Golden dawn or radical left.
anyway soon you will learn why that happened,
not far in time, it has to do with geopoliticks.
my hate for the 100 000 Greeks who send their 128 000 000 000 E abroad to other Banks outside Greece with out pay the taxes, is bigger than your anger,
now you see why Grexit is on discuss continuesly?
search the gold prizes from 2004 till today, you understand more, about the other side of the coin.

----------


## bicicleur

I told before, banks are guilty, EU politicians and Greek politics all are guilty
but I don't believe in farfetched conspiracy theories

and there allways should be some market mechanism at work
countries - as well as banks and companies should balance their books if they don't want to get excluded from financial markets

----------


## bicicleur

what about this : http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greek-...141355344.html

was there realy some conspiracy plan to rob the Greek central bank and to force Grexit?

----------


## Yetos

> what about this : http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greek-...141355344.html
> 
> was there realy some conspiracy plan to rob the Greek central bank and to force Grexit?


I already post it in #324,

----------


## bicicleur

> I already post it in #324,


such desperate plans show how desperate the situation is

none will help

if Greece does not change, their economy will become like that of Roumenia or Bulgaria with a small surplus from tourism

but the Greek people have been spoiled by the money spent and the promises made by Greek politicians into a lifestyle they can't afford
and when they've spent all that money and there is none left they blaim capitalism and Germany

----------


## LeBrok

Perhaps we should have "governments for hire", professionals who knows how economy works and other aspects of well run country? Maybe Greece should accept (elect) German, Swiss or Singaporeans to run Greece for a decade or two? Without good economy Greeks are doomed. Somebody needs to restart the economic engine.

----------


## Kardu

> European Union is the best expression of aspirations of European nations.
> 
> I think in the future EU will further strengthen, not only in terms of expansion, but primary institutional.


Very questionable assumption

----------


## DuPidh

> Very questionable assumption


Agree with your post. In current form EU is showing tremendous weakness. If some other for of a union is not found EU will not be around for too long.

----------


## Yetos

> such desperate plans show how desperate the situation is
> 
> none will help
> 
> if Greece does not change, their economy will become like that of Roumenia or Bulgaria with a small surplus from tourism
> 
> but the Greek people have been spoiled by the money spent and the promises made by Greek politicians into a lifestyle they can't afford
> and when they've spent all that money and there is none left they blaim capitalism and Germany


I agree with your comparison,
but greece already send 300 000 working places to them, due to lower salaries,
and the \tourist income is not even going to insurance deposits, due to black work (no stamps) cause in country with 2 000 000 unofficial immigrants and such numbers of none employd, black work is like a drink of water in desert,
the thing is that money were not spoiled,
they were stolen, and return back to central EU banks,
128 billions went to central Europes banks as liguid currency,
the new goverment promise a 3 year plan to tax these money, and punish the ones,
but it is dificult, since even vice minister of economics has some troubles with judges and law due to this,
although she resign that means nothing,
such things happened in Greece in 1860's and 1904's
so the ones who see behind can realize,

i really can not say what is best now,
keep rolling the problem to future until it is solved?
or face it now with the disaster that can produce,

Anyway, why you think Schauble offered so many millions to Greece?

----------


## Yetos

> Perhaps we should have "governments for hire", professionals who knows how economy works and other aspects of well run country? Maybe Greece should accept (elect) German, Swiss or Singaporeans to run Greece for a decade or two? Without good economy Greeks are doomed. Somebody needs to restart the economic engine.


if you could look at me, I have a smile,
maybe?
but once you said that Greece from 1821 and after has how many bankrupts? remember?
well did you notice the anomalies and the war in each one?

if you did, then you know what is going on,

----------


## Garrick

> Very questionable assumption


For me it is the best option. Because small and unrelated European countries cannot be competitors giants on the world stage. But as Union it is almost different story. Today European Union has the highest GDP in the world, ahead of USA and China. More Union, including development of institutions at the level of the Union, produces better results.

----------


## LeBrok

> For me it is the best option. Because small and unrelated European countries cannot be competitors giants on the world stage. But as Union it is almost different story. Today European Union has the highest GDP in the world, ahead of USA and China. More Union, including development of institutions at the level of the Union, produces better results.


It is one of main reason EU will not only survive but will grow stronger. In the future will also include Russia (after change of president and more reforms), because Russia by itself will mean less and less against China and rest of Asia.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> It is one of main reason EU will not only survive but will grow stronger. In the future will also include Russia (after change of president and more reforms), because Russia by itself will mean less and less against China and rest of Asia.


Include Russia! Putin is too young. I don't think he ever leave the presidency. What about Turkey being within EU?

----------


## LeBrok

> Include Russia! Putin is too young. I don't think he ever leave the presidency. What about Turkey being within EU?


For now both Russia and Turkey are going into dictatorship and human rights abuse mod, and as such won't be accepted into EU. They don't even want to be in EU at the moment, so it is no issue.
I'm thinking 20-50 years ahead when both become more civilized, democratic and liberal.

----------


## bicicleur

> It is one of main reason EU will not only survive but will grow stronger. In the future will also include Russia (after change of president and more reforms), because Russia by itself will mean less and less against China and rest of Asia.


I hope so but I don't think so.
I like the Russians, I don't like what happens in Russia.

But for Europe, I certainly don't like what is happening in Turkey lately. It may become a bigger threat than Russia.

----------


## Garrick

> It is one of main reason EU will not only survive but will grow stronger. In the future will also include Russia (after change of president and more reforms), because Russia by itself will mean less and less against China and rest of Asia.


Yes, I'm sure EU will be more united and stronger and strengthening of institutions on the union and euro zone level is natural process.

But I'm not sure for Russia. Yes, there was idea that will be union between Lisbon and Vladivostok. However, situation is different. Six million European Russians in next period will move to the Russian Far East. Russia turns to Asia and it can be ongoing process. China is faster.

----------


## LeBrok

> Yes, I'm sure EU will be more united and stronger and strengthening of institutions on the union and euro zone level is natural process.
> 
> But I'm not sure for Russia. Yes, there was idea that will be union between Lisbon and Vladivostok. However, situation is different. Six million European Russians in next period will move to the Russian Far East. Russia turns to Asia and it can be ongoing process. China is faster.


In European Union Russia could be one of dominant powers. In Asia they will be dwarfed by China, and India soon, not an equal partner.

----------


## bicicleur

> In European Union Russia could be one of dominant powers. In Asia they will be dwarfed by China, and India soon, not an equal partner.


I'm not sure about that.
Russian commodities could be very interesting for China.

----------


## LeBrok

> I'm not sure about that.
> Russian commodities could be very interesting for China.


 Yes but China always will get cheapest price, and treat Russia like a cheap supermarket. Russia will get better prices in EU and will be treated like an important member.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> still hide behind Mexican flag?
> *
> 
> DO YOU NEED A MASK TO POST?*


Why you like to make it personal all the time?! Be focused on arguments. Maybe he is an Albanian living in Mexico, or a Mexican living in Albania .

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I do not deny what you say,
> 
> but you give only the one side of the coin,
> as you say Greece Greece used goldman sachs, to falsify accounts, but Eu politicians knew it,
> BUT ACCEPTED !!! WHY?
> I think the same 'hate' against Greece must also be in the same Degree with the politicians who accept it,
> 
> *and the Eu tax payers are not paying Greece, but Goldman Sachs, But still you blame Greece,*
> and can I accept that?
> ...


The situation there is simple. You can not spend, more than you earn by working. Neo liberalism of EU has nothing to do here. Don't blame the neo liberalism for the wrong economy guides of Greece.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Perhaps we should have "governments for hire", professionals who knows how economy works and other aspects of well run country? Maybe Greece should accept (elect) German, Swiss or Singaporeans to run Greece for a decade or two? Without good economy Greeks are doomed. Somebody needs to restart the economic engine.


It will be too sad. It is the end or the death of democracy.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> For now both Russia and Turkey are going into dictatorship and human rights abuse mod, and as such won't be accepted into EU. They don't even want to be in EU at the moment, so it is no issue.
> I'm thinking 20-50 years ahead when both become more civilized, democratic and liberal.


Turkey last years is decreasing in democracy, for sure. Erdogan is copying Putin I think, maybe. But still is not in the same position with Russia. At least turkey is a NATO member, and also institutionally is more close to EU.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Yes but China always will get cheapest price, and treat Russia like a cheap supermarket. Russia will get better prices in EU and will be treated like an important member.


Russia will never join EU. Russia is more comfortable within a alliance with China. Russia has a lot of fuel for the Chinese engine economy.  . They need each other. They could help each other on their economy.

----------


## Yetos

> The situation there is simple. You can not spend, more than you earn by working. Neo liberalism of EU has nothing to do here. Don't blame the neo liberalism for the wrong economy guides of Greece.




you are just young,
search Chicago economic schools Milton Friedman
the man who said free world in Capitalism, but manage to enslave inocent through his methods,
NO WE DO NOT NEED A DIXIE/YANKEE WAR IN EU FOR THE SHAKE OF SUCH MINDS,
he who knows understand

----------


## LeBrok

> It will be too sad. It is the end or the death of democracy.


Yes, in critical situations even Roman Republic was giving up democracy and choosing a dictator to run things for few years.

----------


## LeBrok

> Turkey last years is decreasing in democracy, for sure. Erdogan is copying Putin I think, maybe. But still is not in the same position with Russia. At least turkey is a NATO member, and also institutionally is more close to EU.


You are right, at least Turkey from time to time had ambitions to become more Western and closer to EU. Russia on other hand didn't identify itself as pro western or pro EU, and preferred to be very independent or even in opposition, with a goal of creating their own union.

----------


## LeBrok

> Russia will never join EU. Russia is more comfortable within a alliance with China. Russia has a lot of fuel for the Chinese engine economy.  . They need each other. They could help each other on their economy.


 It is more about treatment too. EU will treat Russians as equal, Chinese will treat Russians like a sub-race with weird culture.

----------


## LeBrok

> you are just young,
> search Chicago economic schools Milton Friedman
> the man who said free world in Capitalism, but manage to enslave inocent through his methods,
> NO WE DO NOT NEED A DIXIE/YANKEE WAR IN EU FOR THE SHAKE OF SUCH MINDS,
> he who knows understand


Yetos, nobody wants to enslave anyone. If US and big capital want to steal something it would be from rich Germans and Japanese, and not from poor Greeks, with its small population and no natural resources. Even Robin Hood knew that the best way is to steal from rich.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> you are just young,
> search Chicago economic schools Milton Friedman
> the man who said free world in Capitalism, but manage to enslave inocent through his methods,
> NO WE DO NOT NEED A DIXIE/YANKEE WAR IN EU FOR THE SHAKE OF SUCH MINDS,
> he who knows understand


What I know for sure is all that what we learned from the history. Today the strongest and powerful economies of the world are USA, Britain, Germany and Japan. Why? 
Liberalism, for sure. Thanks the Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan economic policy those countries are the strongest economies of world. Greece needs to start from the ruins its economy. They need a real and true capitalism. France and Italy needs a lot of change too. If Greece would not change as soon as possible, you are gonna see some unimaginable events. Trust me. Germany will not spend infinity to hold the Greek economy upstanding. No one will do, whatever sort of the propaganda Greeks will use . 
Enough with socialism, only work, work, work .

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Yes, in critical situations even Roman Republic was giving up democracy and choosing a dictator to run things for few years.


Yes, I agree. But the risk that over time it returns to habit . It happened on Rome. Today people praise Julius Cesar, but I hate him. He was the first one who destroyed the Roman republic.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Yetos, nobody wants to enslave anyone. If US and big capital want to steal something it would be from rich Germans and Japanese, and not from poor Greeks, with its small population and no natural resources. Even Robin Hood knew that the best way is to steal from rich.


Yes. There are some people even in Albania who hates USA and capitalism. They think in the same way as Yetos. Albanian state has less than 3 million of inhabitants. . 
I was grown in a social communist country. I know how sad it is. It's a different thing to see the communism on TV and completely another to live on a communist country

----------


## LeBrok

> Yes. There are some people even in Albania who hates USA and capitalism. They think in the same way as Yetos. Albanian state has less than 3 million of inhabitants. . 
> I was grown in a social communist country. I know how sad it is. It's a different thing to see the communism on TV and completely another to live on a communist country


I lived my first 23 years under communist regime in Poland. That's why I left. I didn't fit the mold.

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos, nobody wants to enslave anyone. If US and big capital want to steal something it would be from rich Germans and Japanese, and not from poor Greeks, with its small population and no natural resources. Even Robin Hood knew that the best way is to steal from rich.



@Lebrok

yes like Argentina2

anyway,

I grew in free in a family who teach me freedom,
at 1945-1950, communists took half of my grand father production, and 2 times they they try to execute my other grand father for ransom, as capitalist
today these 'communists' are rich enough,
i was born and grew the times of US Junda in Greece, and I was kid and I see 2 times my father to be taken by force from home, and accusing him for communism, and try to send him to exile,
growing up, I understand that every system, away from ideology, is rotten by its own supporters

----------


## bicicleur

> I lived my first 23 years under communist regime in Poland. That's why I left. I didn't fit the mold.


what do you think of Poland today?
I had bussiness with Poland in the 1990's
It was nice, everyone was so optimistic then

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I lived my first 23 years under communist regime in Poland. That's why I left. I didn't fit the mold.


You mean you left during the regime, or after the regime fell . In my country was too difficult to escape from there. Even when people escaped from there, the family which remained there had serious consequences. Prison or deportation on heavy forced work on some forgotten villages.

----------


## LeBrok

> You mean you left during the regime, or after the regime fell .


 During




> In my country was too difficult to escape from there. Even when people escaped from there, the family which remained there had serious consequences. Prison or deportation on heavy forced work on some forgotten villages.


I was lucky there was Polish Pope in Rome at that time and communist government relaxed restrictions for issuing passports to go to Italy for, let's say, pilgrimage.

----------


## LeBrok

> what do you think of Poland today?
> I had bussiness with Poland in the 1990's
> It was nice, everyone was so optimistic then


I'd say Poland made a economic progress since. Though I don't think reforms went far enough to spur economic boom equal Ireland. They need more foreign capital to really unleash working power of people there. Too few working/producing and too many and too early retired and on social services. Someone estimated that in Poland 50% people is occupied, compared to Denmark were 75% is. Being in EU and having opportunities to work in Germany, England and Ireland was and is a big help.

----------


## bicicleur

this is a map with Fitch ratings of the Euro countries

there is no east-west divide in Europe, the divide is north-south

the east-west divide was because of Sovjet occupation and of course the consequences are still there
but north-south divide will become more and more prominent

3727927.jpg

----------


## LeBrok

> this is a map with Fitch ratings of the Euro countries
> 
> there is no east-west divide in Europe, the divide is north-south
> 
> the east-west divide was because of Sovjet occupation and of course the consequences are still there
> but north-south divide will become more and more prominent
> 
> 3727927.jpg


No ratings for the rest of Europe?

----------


## Boreas

> No ratings for the rest of Europe?


Is it enough?  :Grin:

----------


## Yetos

Yes 

But I wonder why he 




is buying Greek depth like a maniac?

until now he has bought more than 4 000 000 000 E Greek depth,
for those who do not know he is Paul Kazarian
he claims that although by following today counting Greek depth seems to be to be 175% of 'per capita'
by following *International Public Sector Accounting Standards IPSAS* is much lower,
simply for him Greece has not a depth crisis but a liquid money problem,

well I still have not found,
maybe he is buying very cheap with big risk (100 for 10-20 and waits to get 100 after)
or indeed IPSAS method is giving Greek depth much much lower (18% as he claims)
anyway he worked for Goldmans Sachs before Japonica, so something is in the 'fog'
maybe he is a new money vulture, or a indeed by following different method Greek depth is not so high


anyway I still believe that banking system should be forboden to lend money to states

----------


## Boreas

Same as Greece, Turkey decleared a new general election.

Now I am wondering;

Is there any possiblity of strong goverment after the next election in Greece? What says the polls?

----------


## Maleth

> this is a map with Fitch ratings of the Euro countries
> 
> there is no east-west divide in Europe, the divide is north-south
> 
> the east-west divide was because of Sovjet occupation and of course the consequences are still there
> but north-south divide will become more and more prominent
> 
> 3727927.jpg


with the exception of tiny isolated isle of Malta of course.....

----------


## Yetos

> Same as Greece, Turkey decleared a new general election.
> 
> Now I am wondering;
> 
> Is there any possiblity of strong goverment after the next election in Greece? What says the polls?


nothing is certain yet,
and no serious gallup with 30% to have not decide

----------


## LeBrok

> nothing is certain yet,
> and no serious gallup with 30% to have not decide


The biggest uncertainty is constant elections and changes of government in Greece. Are we going to have another referendum, or another government with new ideas how to "repair" Greece's economy by not ratifying new financial agreements? Perhaps they should elect German or Swiss government to run Greece for next 10 years?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> The biggest uncertainty is constant elections and changes of government in Greece. Are we going to have another referendum, or another government with new ideas how to "repair" Greece's economy by not ratifying new financial agreements? Perhaps they should elect German or Swiss government to run Greece for next 10 years?


As I already said, it will be sad to have a German or a Swiss government for Greece. But if that will happened, should be voted on a referendum.

----------


## LeBrok

> As I already said, it will be sad to have a German or a Swiss government for Greece. But if that will happened, should be voted on a referendum.


 Not more sad, than looking at Greece run to the ground by their own people.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Not more said that looking at Greece run to the ground by their own people.


The polls saying tsipras is wining again.

----------


## LeBrok

> The polls saying tsipras is wining again.


Perhaps it is a good thing, at least temporally. Any new government would revisit "the deal" and start negotiations again.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Perhaps it is a good thing, at least temporally. Any new government would revisit "the deal" and start negotiations again.


Yes, which means that the deal stays. New talks would bring other uncertainties for the economy

----------


## LeBrok

> Yes, which means that the deal stays. New talks would bring other uncertainties for the economy


 And economy loves certainty.

I wonder how much unrest in Near East helps Greeks in tourist industry?

----------


## LABERIA

*Greek Police assault on the Bayern Munich fans*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfU2CdLXuW0

----------


## Yetos

> And economy loves certainty.
> 
> I wonder how much unrest in Near East helps Greeks in tourist industry?


you must the news about the Greek IPSAS depth,
the new model is giving Greece ahead of many,
simply the 'mad Armenian' seems to get richer and richer every day,
I wrote about him, he bought 4 billion E Greek depth
the new EUdeals change a lot the scene,
wait few months more,

----------


## Boreas

> The polls saying tsipras is wining again.


I wouidn't see it like you. This time, it seems he can't win with a minor difference. That means, fights in parlamento will be more harsh.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> And economy loves certainty.
> 
> I wonder how much unrest in Near East helps Greeks in tourist industry?


It might help Greece, but the refugees are invading the islands. The type of tourists who go to Greece appreciate the serenity

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I wouidn't see it like you. This time, it seems he can't win with a minor difference. That means, fights in parlamento will be more harsh.


The last polls are pretty close. But if the new demokracia win the elections I don't think they would start new talks. I think the Greeks hoped a financial help from Putin, but he refused. He couldn't stand that large quantity of money. Only Germany could.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> you must the news about the Greek IPSAS depth,
> the new model is giving Greece ahead of many,
> simply the 'mad Armenian' seems to get richer and richer every day,
> I wrote about him, he bought 4 billion E Greek depth
> the new EUdeals change a lot the scene,
> wait few months more,


Where is he from?

----------


## Boreas

> The last polls are pretty close. But if the new demokracia win the elections I don't think they would start new talks. I think the Greeks hoped a financial help from Putin, but he refused. He couldn't stand that large quantity of money. Only Germany could.


It just gives a time like one year. I can see another early election. Same thing will be in also Turkey.

----------


## Yetos

> The last polls are pretty close. But if the new demokracia win the elections I don't think they would start new talks. I think the Greeks hoped a financial help from Putin, but he refused. He couldn't stand that large quantity of money. Only Germany could.


that is semi correct,
simply Greek ask from Putin not to embargo Greek products due to EU/Russia embargo after Ukraine,

and no it is not Germany, but ECB,
simply ECB 'loves' the locomotive of Eurobill,
and always gives Deutschland the lowest rates/interest,

GREEK PROBLEM WAS NOT POVERTY AS SAID IN REST COUNTRIES,
IT WAS LIQUID money , Cash, Banks did not had liquid, but had other kind of bonds and own/loans
and that was where Shauble step foot,
Deutschland manage to buy all the debts/loans of other countries to Greece through that
the scenario of Grexit and rest was just a hoax,
so what Albania Fyrom Bulgaria Romania Georgia etc etc owned to Greek banks today is bought by Deutschland and rest EU countries,
there is also a small quantiy left for bargain in future,
GREECE DID NOT DEBT,
GREEK BANKS DID, AND NEEDED LIQUID (ELA) in order not pass that failure to goverment,

PS
if you watch at least news, then you know that Greece denied Putin to fly over Greece, on way to Syria, as exchange of previous embargo and energy deny.
*but surely you did notice that,*

----------


## Yetos

> Where is he from?


find about Japonica 
it is enough to understand about whom we are Talking,

----------


## Yetos

IPSAS and GREECE

for those who know economics, from 2013 greece started to enter IPSAS,
from may 2015 IPSAS are working and Book-fair vallue proves the image and numbers,
the more collateral are showed the better,
by adopting IPSAS and the collateral progress and the liquid problem solved by ECB 
GREECE is about to be under Slovania at 12 position in EU map of debt until end of 2016
after adoption of IPSAS all 'VOICES' stop, and more money that Greece expected are coming.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> It just gives a time like one year. I can see another early election. Same thing will be in also Turkey.


What is gonna happen in Turkey in new elections?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> that is semi correct,
> simply Greek ask from Putin not to embargo Greek products due to EU/Russia embargo after Ukraine,
> 
> and no it is not Germany, but ECB,
> simply ECB 'loves' the locomotive of Eurobill,
> and always gives Deutschland the lowest rates/interest,
> 
> GREEK PROBLEM WAS NOT POVERTY AS SAID IN REST COUNTRIES,
> IT WAS LIQUID money , Cash, Banks did not had liquid, but had other kind of bonds and own/loans
> ...


I am talking of the first month when tsipras was elected. Tsipras travelled to Moscow. All I said I knew from the media. They said tsipras could have a help from Russia. But it didn't happen, and soon after tsipras started to negotiate with EU. 

Economy and finance are connected. The Greek economy is not profitable. Greeks should understand that. Germany will not help them forever.

----------


## Yetos

> I am talking of the first month when tsipras was elected. Tsipras travelled to Moscow. All I said I knew from the media. They said tsipras could have a help from Russia. But it didn't happen, and soon after tsipras started to negotiate with EU. 
> 
> Economy and finance are connected. The Greek economy is not profitable. Greeks should understand that. Germany will not help them forever.


do not determine anything,
we are here and we will be here,

Perhaps that is something that you would like to happen,
but sometimes Life plays strange games,

as it seems Greece is the 13 healthy economy of EU for now,

----------


## Boreas

> What is gonna happen in Turkey in new elections?


They couldn't make a coalition, that's why they decide to make new election(1 November), but poll says there will be still need coalition after the election. There is no much changes in the votes

----------


## Yetos

the bellow is not mine,

it is from NYT USA since some debate Les Journal Francais

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/op...nity.html?_r=0

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## Piro Ilir

> do not determine anything,
> we are here and we will be here,
> 
> Perhaps that is something that you would like to happen,
> but sometimes Life plays strange games,
> 
> as it seems Greece is the 13 healthy economy of EU for now,


Yes, wealthy with Germans money. How long it could last?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> the bellow is not mine,
> 
> it is from NYT USA since some debate Les Journal Francais
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/op...nity.html?_r=0


What do you want to tell us with that? 
How much is a pension in Greece? Greece is not a poor country. Enough with this game.

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## Yetos

> What do you want to tell us with that? 
> How much is a pension in Greece? Greece is not a poor country. Enough with this game.


I wonder when you finaly stabilize your opinion,
so what is Greece and what are Greeks,
Is it poor? is it rich? are Greeks rich? or poor?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I wonder when you finaly stabilize your opinion,
> so what is Greece and what are Greeks,
> Is it poor? is it rich? are Greeks rich? or poor?


It's rich. All this is a Greek game. They want to continue to take money from the west, without changing their economy system

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## Yetos

> It's rich. All this is a Greek game. They want to continue to take money from the west, without changing their economy system


Then they are very smart, very smart, if your statement is true.
thank you,
so they played a game and win the West and Global system and take more and more money,
Hip Hip Hurray to them,
they defeat the West money system,
Come on, salaries drop by 35% and taxes raised at a total of >18% (from 5-6 and 13 and luxury 23% to 18 23-28 and 35%

well it is your last chance now,
you can come to Greece as millions Albanians did, and work or make your own corporation, 
it is not far from homeland,
maybe it your challenge, your chance to become rich, in a rich country,
will you dare?
or you are afraid of Greek poverty?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Then they are very smart, very smart, if your statement is true.
> thank you,
> so they played a game and win the West and Global system and take more and more money,
> Hip Hip Hurray to them,
> they defeat the West money system,
> Come on, salaries drop by 35% and taxes raised at a total of >18% (from 5-6 and 13 and luxury 23% to 18 23-28 and 35%
> 
> well it is your last chance now,
> you can come to Greece as millions Albanians did, and work or make your own corporation, 
> ...


1- don't put it in personal. 2- I think that Greeks are smart, no surprise on that. They are doing well. This taxes game is just a joke. There will be not this taxes system. It's just another Greek game. Bravo. 3- I asked young what is the pension in Greece, and you were afraid to answer me. When the Greeks go to take the pensions, in what age, 55?

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## Piro Ilir

Yetos 
The second language in Greece is the Albanian. For how long it will last as it's gonna be the main language. Already in Peloponnesian is equally with the Greek language. Many Greek surnames are Albanian if you put away the "as" ending.

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## Yetos

> Yetos 
> The second language in Greece is the Albanian. For how long it will last as it's gonna be the main language. Already in Peloponnesian is equally with the Greek language. Many Greek surnames are Albanian if you put away the "as" ending.


hahahaha

As long as it will take the Greek language to become First in Albania,
remember that second language in Albania is Greek,

and many Albanian names are Aromani or Greek

are you afraid if Greek becomes first language in Albanian?

----------


## LeBrok

> 1- don't put it in personal. 2- I think that Greeks are smart, no surprise on that. They are doing well. This taxes game is just a joke. There will be not this taxes system. It's just another Greek game. Bravo. 3- I asked young what is the pension in Greece, and you were afraid to answer me. *When the Greeks go to take the pensions, in what age, 55?*


 What, they didn't change it yet?!!! What happened to the reforms?

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

The future of Greece and its currency.
The Greece and the monetary future ?or the future of currency in Greece?


Greece has a long tradition - among others- of coinage, I think the most beautiful coins of antiquity is Greek, but will also dare not underestimate that of the modern national euro's, the Greek is the most beautiful, something that many may to admit, what we relate, -aesthetically moral issue- of the expulsion of Greek cutting euro's from the European market, the loss would negatively evolved to the detriment of the latter.
 Why; Because the Greeks know the "money" and "values" and the "beauty" -the most expensive of all.
(not to dare to enter the incomparable "practical charm" of our beloved Drachma!)

FFwd>> conclusion.
The "Greek Beauty" the "Greek Values" and some ...change of coins we will save the Europe and the World from the numismatic decline and the ethical poverty for another time! 

 :Laughing:

----------


## LABERIA

> hahahaha
> 
> As long as it will take the Greek language to become First in Albania,


Really? Maybe you will realize what great empires failed. The problem is that to realize a project among other things need money.




> remember that second language in Albania is Greek,


No it`s Italian.



> and many Albanian names are Aromani or Greek
> 
> are you afraid if Greek becomes first language in Albanian?


hahahahah.

P.S.
Important is that in Greece after 200 years people speak greek. Because 200 years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek: Ιωάννης Κωλέττης) (1773[citation needed] - 1847) was *a Greek* politician who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.
In 1813, he settled at Ioannina, where he served as a doctor and after gaining standing he was recruited as the personal doctor of Ali Pasa's son, Muqtar Pasa. He remained in Ioannina till March 1821, when he entered Filiki Eteria and left for Syrrako, together with chieftain Raggos, in order to spread the revolution into Central Greece (Rumeli), but his efforts quickly failed because of the rapid reaction of the Ottoman army. Kolettis was the leader of the pro-French party and based his power on his relations with the leaders of Central Greece but also on his ability to eliminate his adversaries by acting behind the scenes.

What he said nearly 200 years ago:

www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=2172
*«Για ποιούς έλληνες συζητάμε κύριοι; Η Ελλάδα φοράει τσαρούχια βλάχικα και φέσια αρβανίτικα».

"Gentlemen, what Hellenes are we talking about? All Hellas is wearing Vlach tsarouhia and Albanian fezzes."*

This raises a question: Since there were no Hellenes (Greeks), how did the revolution of 1821 prevail? It prevailed thanks to the British, who wanted a state of their own in the Mediterranean (and not to fall under Russian influence and control). They took advantage of the uprising of the albanians of Greece and helped them, seeing the collapse of the Ottoman Empire


Edit
So according to Wiki, Koletis was an Greek? 

Yep.

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## LABERIA

http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html




> *Report*
> 
> 
> - *THE ARVANITES
> General data on the language
> *Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Αρβανίτες)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.
> Nevertheless, Arvanitika belongs to the linguistic family of Albanian, and it has evolved from one of the two linguistic groups of Albanian, the South Albanian Tosk (the other is the North Albanian Gheg). Arvanitika has a dialectical richness: there are three different groups of dialects spoken, one in Thrace, one in Northwestern Greece (near the Albanian border), and one in Central and Southern Greece. The latter, which includes the vast majority of speakers of Arvanitika in Greece, has by itself a great dialectical variety which makes some of these dialects to be, or to be perceived by the speakers as, mutually unintelligible (Nakratzas, 1992:86; Trudgill et al., 1975:44; Tsitsipis, 1983:297; Williams, 1992:85). Along with Vlachs, Macedonians, and Roma, Arvanites in Greece argue whether they should use the Greek or the Latin alphabet to write their language, which has rarely been written (Gerou, 1994a; Kazazis, 1994).
> Most Arvanites have traditionally lived in Central and Southern Greece: in most departments of the regions of Continental Greece (Sterea Ellada) and the Peloponnese (including especially most islands corresponding to these areas) and the Cyclades island of Andros. Arvanites also live near the Albanian border, in most departments of Epirus and in the Florina and Kastoria departments of Macedonia; also, in the border (with Turkey) department of Evros (in Thrace) and in the Salonica department (where they settled along with other Orthodox refugees from Eastern Thrace, in the 1920s). Like the rest of the population, since the 1950s, Arvanites have been emigrating from their villages to the cities and especially to the capital Athens, which, incidentally, was a mainly Albanian (Arvanite) small town in the early 1800s, before becoming the Greek states capital (Nakratzas, 1992:87-8). It appears that urbanization has been leading to the loss of the use of the language, which has been surviving more in the traditional villages.
> There have not been any official statistics on this as well as on any other minority group in Greece since 1951 (and the statistics before then are generally considered unreliable, reflecting mostly only those with a strong ethnic consciousness). Today, the best estimate for the people who speak the language and/or have an Arvanite consciousness is that they number around 200,000. Trudgill (1983:128) gives an estimate of 140,000 for the speakers in Attica and Beotia, a figure also mentioned in Hill (1990:135). For the Arvanites in the Northwest, a figure of 30,000 is given by Ciampi (1985:87), who also puts the figure for the total group at 156,000-201,000. Some members of the community give much higher figures, around 1,600,000 (Kormoss, 1994:1; and Gerou, 1994b:2): this figure may correspond to all Greeks who have some Arvanite ancestry, but certainly not to the current speakers and those with a similar consciousness. Like all other minority languages, except Turkish, Arvanitika has no legal status in Greece and is not taught at  any level of the educational system.
> ...

----------


## Piro Ilir

> hahahaha
> 
> As long as it will take the Greek language to become First in Albania,
> remember that second language in Albania is Greek,
> 
> and many Albanian names are Aromani or Greek
> 
> are you afraid if Greek becomes first language in Albanian?


You know well that it's not true. The second language in Albania is Italian. The third is english. The Greek is the fourth. Could you elaborate your claim. How could be the Greek the first language? Say something to support that.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> What, they didn't change it yet?!!! What happened to the reforms?


What? !!!! You are waiting that they are gonna change anything there? !!! .

----------


## Yetos

> You know well that it's not true. The second language in Albania is Italian. The third is english. The Greek is the fourth. Could you elaborate your claim. How could be the Greek the first language? Say something to support that.


hahaha you are funny

second language in Greece is English with amzing 54%
third is Deutsch with 18%
third is francais with 12%
fourth is Italian (not Aromani with) with 10%
fifth is Turkish and Albanian and rest Arab and Indian with 10%
but second spoken language is Albanian
and third Serbian and Bulgarian

as in Albania
secondary language is Greek

*secondary language is not what people know
is what you hear at the streats


*for example all Francais know English or Spanish etc
but secondary can be Algerien in some parts, although spoken by less % 
than people who know second language

>80 % of Greeks speak another language
only 6-8 % speak Albanian today
but secondary is Albanian

same in Albania
many know English Italian etc
but secondary is Greek
it is estimated that 25% of Albania knows Greek language
but only 15% use it as main language
and in next generation will reach 40%
come on don't hide behind your finger

SECONDARY LANGUAGE IS WHAT PEOPLE USE IN DAILY LIFE
NOT WHAT THEY KNOW.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> hahaha you are funny
> 
> second language in Greece is English with amzing 54%
> third is Deutsch with 18%
> third is francais with 12%
> fourth is Italian (not Aromani with) with 10%
> fifth is Turkish and Albanian and rest Arab and Indian with 10%
> but second spoken language is Albanian
> and third Serbian and Bulgarian
> ...


How can be 25 % Greek speaking in Albania? Weird. I never heard that. Every one there speaks Albanian, except some villages on the south. Before the fell of communism near gjirokastra was a Greek minority. Today there are only few people left there because they all migrated into Greece. The Greek state give them the Greek passports, so they left from there. 

A friend of mine visited last month Greece (selanik) for medical care reasons. You can heard there all the time on the streets the Albanian language. It's normal. Even the Greeks understands the Albanian. But of course they don't speak Albanian. Probably, there are one million Albanians living throughout Greece, including all the Albanians.

----------


## monai089

Good and correct analysis for this forum.

----------


## Yetos

> Really? Maybe you will realize what great empires failed. The problem is that to realize a project among other things need money.
> 
> 
> No it`s Italian.
> 
> 
> hahahahah.
> 
> P.S.
> ...



blah blah,

when you understand what he says come back and tell us,
because he surely says something, but not what you say,
something different,

but from a guy that reads kolla, dhmou, dhmopoulos,
I expect nothing,

----------


## dease

With all the refugee news, nobody even mentions Greece anymore

----------


## Boreas

> With all the refugee news, nobody even mentions Greece anymore


Greece does not need great attention. They are doing well, now. I are solving the problem with staying in Euro. Well Done for them.

----------


## LeBrok

They have to do more to draw world capital in and create jobs.

----------


## Boreas

> They have to do more to draw world capital in and create jobs.


They are rising retiring pensions, nationalizing roads (not selling to catch more world capital). Even Tsipras is fighting against bullshit of greek church. But, yes they have way to go

----------


## draj

> Greece does not need great attention. They are doing well, now. I are solving the problem with staying in Euro. Well Done for them.


But the debt of Greece is higher than ever?

----------


## alieneu

It's just a time bomb, Germany's loan only delayed inevitable.

----------


## LABERIA

*Official visit of the German President to Greece* 11/10/2018 13:35 


The President of the Federal Republic of Germany Mr. Frank Walter Steinmeier is on a two–day official visit to Greece at the invitation of his Greek counterpart Mr. Prokopis Pavlopolos.
The German President placed a wreath at the Monument of the Unknown Soldier this morning and then met with President Pavlopoulos and Prime Minister Tsipras.
In the afternoon Mr. Steinmeier will be named Honorary Doctor of the Faculty of Law of the University of Athens, while on Friday he will visit the archaeological site of Ancient Messina, in Ithomi. The German President will then be named an honorary citizen of the city of Kalamata and then depart for Berlin.

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## LABERIA

*Greece ‘to Claim €280 Billion’ in War Reparations from Germany*

By
Tasos Kokkinidis - 

Oct 7, 2018







Greece is about to launch a campaign to claim €280 billion ($323 billion) in war reparations from Germany, reports Der Spiegel.
The German magazine notes that as long as Greece was dependent on EU support, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras had avoided raising the issue. But now, after the end of the third bailout program, Athens is ready to take initiatives to claim the money, it says.
The issue is resurfacing a few days before the official visit of Germany’s President Frank-Walter Steinmeier to Athens where he will meet the President of the Republic Prokopis Pavlopoulos and Tsipras.
Der Spiegel says it is no coincidence that the two highest ranking Greek politicians have both raised the issue in the last few days.
It marks the beginning of a long campaign, which, according to the German magazine, will start in November.
The Greek Parliament will endorse an audit report ready since August 2016, according to which Greece is entitled to €269.5 billion of repairs from the Second World War.
In addition, Greece demands the repayment of a €10.3 billion occupation loan.
The report remained under wraps throughout the last two years, but Tsipras seems ready to bring it back to the surface and start a campaign for war reparations, says Der Spiegel.
In the second phase, Greece intends to present its arguments at world organizations such as the European Parliament, the European Council, and the UN.
In the third phase, Greece plans to call on Germany to negotiate war reparations. For its part, the German government is expected to reject the request. Already in the past, it has made it clear that Greece has no legal right to claim damages for the Second World War.
In the opinion of some Greek lawyers, this German denial may open the way for the case to be brought before the International Court of Justice in The Hague, says the German magazine.

----------


## LABERIA

*Griechenland will 280 Milliarden Euro von Deutschland eintreiben*

----------


## LABERIA

*Germany: Issue of War Reparations to Greece ‘Closed’* By
Philip Chrysopoulos - 

Oct 11, 2018 

Berlin sees that the issue of war reparations to Greece is an issue that is legally and politically closed, said German government spokesperson Steffen Seibert on Wednesday. The response came after the Greek government raised again the issue of war reparations, claiming some € 280 billion in damages during the German Occupation.
Seibert referred to the Greek claim responding to a Polish journalist’s question about the position of the German government on the request from the Greek side.
“We have actually discussed this issue many times. Our position is that the issue of German reparations has been legally and politically regulated definitively. Nothing has changed in our position. Other than that, there has not been an official move by the Greek government,” Seibert said.
Seibert was also asked if there is a joint move between Poland and Greece to claim war compensations from Germany.
“Honestly, I have no information about this. It would also be surprising if I had information about possible consultations between Poland and Greece. I do not have them,” the spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel concluded.
Earlier, the German press reported that the demand for war reparations is expected to be high on the agenda of the meeting of the German President, Frank Walter Steinmeier, with President of the Hellenic Republic, Prokopis Pavlopoulos.
German magazine Der Spiegel wrote that the Greek parliament has approved a report according to which “Greeks are demanding the sum of € 269.5 billion as compensation for the period of World War II.” The report includes, among other things, demands for compensation of € 10.3 billion for the loans Greece was forced to give Germany during the four-year occupation.
_Source: Athens – Macedonian News Agency_

----------


## LABERIA

*TASS: Tsipras to visit Russia in winter*

NEWS 08.10.2018 




Preparations are underway for a visit to Russia by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, according to the TASS news agency on Monday.

TASS cited Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov as saying the visit will most likely take place in the coming winter.

“Indeed, Tsipras’ visit (to Russia) and such contact (with Putin) are being prepared. We expect such contact in the winter,” TASS quoted Peskov as saying.
The agency cited a Greek diplomatic source which said that Tsipras may visit Russia in the first half of December.

Relations between the two countries have soured in recent months over the expulsion of two Russia diplomats on charges of interfering with Greece’s domestic affairs.

http://tass.com/politics/1024927

----------


## LABERIA

*Biggest rift in modern Orthodox history? Russian Church won’t work w/ Constantinople-chaired bodies*

----------


## LABERIA

*Orthodox priests to be cut from Greek government payroll*



> Prime minister determined to overhaul country’s complex ties with the church
> 
> Helena Smith in Athens
> 
> Thu 8 Nov 2018 05.00 GMT Last modified on Thu 8 Nov 2018 12.55 GMT
> Athens’ leftist government has taken a radical step in transforming the Greek state’s relations with the powerful Orthodox church, announcing an end to the status of clerics as civil servants.
> 
> In the biggest move yet towards the 11-million strong nation becoming a fully fledged secular country, officials said the public sector would cease to have any religious role.
> 
> ...

----------


## LABERIA

These priests will no longer be considered as public servants but as farmers who milk their cows. Seems that the division between state and religion, one of the most important achievements of western civilization, will still take a long time to be applied in Greece. 
Germans have a lot of money.

----------


## Angela

> These priests will no longer be considered as public servants but as farmers who milk their cows. Seems that the division between state and religion, one of the most important achievements of western civilization, will still take a long time to be applied in Greece. 
> Germans have a lot of money.


Stop with this constant provocation against Greeks or there will be consequences. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?

----------


## LABERIA

> Stop with this constant provocation against Greeks or there will be consequences. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?


What is provocation in my post? Can you explain me please?

----------


## Yetos

> These priests will no longer be considered as public servants but as farmers who milk their cows. Seems that the division between state and religion, one of the most important achievements of western civilization, will still take a long time to be applied in Greece. 
> Germans have a lot of money.



Oh boy,

search better the older and the new agrrement
and find out why this happened now

----------


## LABERIA

> Stop with this constant provocation against Greeks or there will be consequences. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?


This is an provocative post:



> Oh boy,
> again someone who instead of Looking his country,
> looks the neighbours and dreams on !!!!!!
> 
> search better the older and the new agrrement
> And don't make fast conclusions as in Katsifas case.

----------


## LABERIA

*President Pavlopoulos Supports Extension of Greek Territorial Waters*
*Greece has right to extend territorial water: President*
This is an ultimatum of Greece, primarily against Turkey but also to other countries involved in this disputes over the maritime borders.

----------


## LABERIA

*Factbox: Greece’s territorial waters and Turkey*

----------


## LABERIA

*Background Note on Aegean Disputes*

----------


## LABERIA

*GREEK TRAGEDY Greece becomes war zone as thousands of rioters hit streets on 10th anniversary of teenage ‘police brutality’ killing*

----------


## LABERIA

*Russian, Greek leaders to hold first meeting after diplomatic row*

----------


## LABERIA

*Tsipras tells Putin Greece is concerned over Turkey’s purchase of Russian weapons*



> Military & Defense December 07, 17:55
> Earlier, Russia concluded a contract with Turkey to provide air defense systems S-400 Triumf by the end of 2019
> MOSCOW, December 7. /TASS/. Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has said that at negotiations with Russian President Vladimir Putin he expressed to the Russian leader his concern over Turkey’s purchase of Russian weapons.
> 
> "We discussed developments in the Eastern Mediterranean, a new energy map that is being formed in this region, Russia’s role and both countries’ relations with Turkey. I expressed our concern to President Putin over Turkey’s programs for armaments, because it wishes to preserve a casus belli (reason for war) with our country," Tsipras told a news conference after the talks.
> 
> Earlier, Russia concluded a contract with Turkey to provide air defense systems S-400 Triumf by the end of 2019.

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## iamjayroth

I hope it finds its feet again. Such a beautiful place steeped in history, architecture, art & culture.

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## pxxlsisk

The Greeks will be fine until a total bummer begins in the world.

----------

