# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance

## Jacker22

I don't want to be controversial on purpose by starting a topic like this one but I couldn't help wonder why there is such a strong correlation between the percentage of haplogroup E in a country and the unemployment rate and low GDP per capita. 

Ranking of haplogroup E frequency in Europe

Albania 27.5%
Macedonia 23%
Serbia 20.5%
Bulgaria 16%
Bosnia-Herzegovina 14.5%
Portugal 14%
Italy 11%
Hungary 9.5%
Spain 7%
France 7%
Czech Republic 6%
Germany 5.5%
Belgium 5%
Netherlands 4.5%
Denmark 2.5%
Ireland 2%
Finland 1%
Sweden 1%
Norway 1%

Over 10% of haplogroup E in red, under 5% of haplogroup E in blue.

Inverted ranking for GDP per capita in Europe

Bosnia-Herzegovina
Albania 
Macedonia 
Serbia
Bulgaria
Hungary
Czech Republic
Portugal
Spain
Italy
Germany
France
Belgium 
Finland 
Netherlands 
Sweden
Denmark 
Ireland
Norway 

Ranking for unemployment in Europe

Macedonia 32%
Bosnia-Herzegovina 29%
Spain 21.5%
Serbia 19%
Ireland 14.5% (6% in 2008)
Albania 13.5%
Hungary 12.5%
Portugal 11%
Bulgaria 10%
France 9.5%
Italy 8.5%
Sweden 8%
Finland 8%
Czech Republic 7.5%
Belgium 7.5%
Denmark 7%
Germany 6%
Netherlands 4.5%
Norway 3%

Corruption Index in Europe (2009)

Albania 3.2
Bosnia-Herzegovina 3.2
Serbia 3.4
Macedonia 3.8
Bulgaria 3.8
Italy 4.3
Czech Republic 4.9
Hungary 5.1
Portugal 5.8
Spain 6.1
France 6.9
Belgium 7.1
Germany 8.0
Ireland 8.0
Norway 8.6
Netherlands 8.8
Finland 8.9
Sweden 9.2
Denmark 9.3


It is not an exact correlation of course but the general order is quite similar. The haplogroup E ranking looks like the average of GDP per capita, unemployment and corruption. The ranking by corruption index matches best the frequency of haplogroup E.

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## Carlitos

But this study suggests is only for today or will do in all periods of history?

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## Jacker22

> But this study suggests is only for today or will do in all periods of history?


It is for today because there isn't data for all periods in history. The unemployment rate can change fast. It used to be low in the UK and Ireland 5 or 10 years ago, but has been climbing steadily since the credit crunch. The GDP per capita ranking doesn't change much from year to year, but can be quite different after two or three decades. Look at Ireland. It passed from the poorest country in Western Europe in the 1950's to the richest now after Luxembourg. Things like corruption are more stable in time because they are deeply set in cultures and do not depend on short-term swings in economic circumstances. I think that's why the corruption index is the best match here. The corruption rate in a same culture doesn't change much over centuries. There was a lot of corruption in ancient Greece and Rome, in medieval Italy and in the Byzantine Empire, and there is still now in modern Italy and Greece. There was very little corruption in Scandinavia in the Middle Ages, and it is still true now. Corruption is absolutely rampant in Africa, at all levels of society, in richer and poorer regions, and it is also in Africa that haplogroup E is the most common. Is it just a coincidence ? It could be. Perhaps because haplogroup E is more frequent in hot countries. But then why South Italy more corrupted than the North, and Portugal more than Spain, and Serbia more than Croatia ? It's always the region with the higher percentage of haplogroup E that is more corrupted among neighbouring and otherwise similar regions. Despite enjoying a much higher GDP per capita, Greece has a corruption level equivalent to Macedonia, Albania and Serbia, and all four have over 20% of haplogroup E.

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## archaiocapilos

Where exactly did you find data about corruption in ancient Greece and Rome?

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## iapetoc

hmmm i just wonder about the conclusion???

just think 1 thing 

when in Balkans we had ottomans with 20000 aspra you were a bey and many poor had the chance of life time,

corruption has to do with poverty,

not with Y-DNA

besides if we take the other side of razor 

except scands the west europe are the bigest stealers in the world.

just thing that even today they steal the diamonds from poor people in south africa,


so GDP per capita could not only mean hard worker or not corrupted, but good thief also.  :Innocent: 


I just wonder how much E have the arab rich countries and how much GDP per capita???????

like Libya who's GDP is very big, but only few families that can have it,

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## Carlitos

> *Jacker22*
> It is for today because there isn't data for all periods in history.


Nor is there data on his study, has simply chosen at random. The E of Europe are marked on the forehead, most people do not know what haplogroup belong, do you think the E of Europe are different from their countrymen? I do not see the relationship he wants.

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## Maciamo

> corruption has to do with poverty,
> 
> not with Y-DNA


Interesting topic of discussion. I have personally wonder why corruption was so high in rich places like Japan or northern Italy, where people obviously aren't needy. I had a look at the corruption index and saw that New Zealand was the 2nd least corrupted. It's interesting as the GDP per capita at PPP (the one that should have been used for the above study as it reflects better the disposable income of individuals once adjusted for the cost of life) of New Zealand is lower than Greece, but Greece happens to be the most corrupted country in the EU (more corrupted than poorer Eastern European countries; incidentally a major reason why Greece is having so much financial problems at the moment). 

So it doesn't look like corruption is related to poverty after all. Poverty surely has a detrimental effect on corruption, but if you compare countries of similar wealth and development, there will always be major differences in corruption level between them, especially if the language and culture are very different. English-speaking countries, for instance, have similar cultures and therefore don't vary much in corruption levels. Interestingly, even English-speaking countries where the population is overwhelmingly East Asian, like Hong Kong and Singapore, have very low corruption levels, whereas the country of their source populations (China, Malaysia, India) are very corrupted. One could argue that it is because they are rich city-states. However, Macau is about as rich, is just next door to Hong Kong, and yet has a much worse corruption score (5.0 against 8.4 for Hong Kong). So if anything had an influence on corruption levels, I would say it was language and (economic) culture.

As for the relation to haplogroup E, there is obviously some sort of correlation in Europe as the data shows. But haplogroup E is absent from Asia where there is also plenty of corruption. Perhaps the author suggested that some genes involved into the traits of character facilitating corruption migrated along with people who happened to belong to haplogroup E. If that is so, it would not mean that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more corruptible, but genes involved in corruptible character tend to be found at higher levels where the average rate of haplogroup E is higher within a specific population. It's like saying that blond hair were spread by people belonging to haplogroup R1a. It obviously doesn't mean that being R1a is the condition to be blond. Being R1a has no effect at all on hair colour. But the incidence of blond hair does tend to correlate with the incidence of R1a in a population. Regarding R1a the correlation works well for Europe, but less well in Asia. It could be the same for E1b1b and corruption in Europe. If the original people who spread E1b1b around Europe had genes strongly favouring corruption, then it is entirely possible that a true genetic correlation exists between the two. Just keep in mind that genes are never the only factor in human behaviour.

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## Reinaert

I think that there is no correlation. Haplo group E simply originates from areas where living conditions are harder then in North-West Europe. Compare the Balkan with counties like The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.
In North West Europe the country is flat. That made it possible to build an economic infrastructure.
An area with a lot of mountains makes it harder to develop.
An exception may be Switzerland, but they had the advantage to have their banks.

BTW The Netherlands seem to have a low unemployment, but in real life figures lie.
Many people have to work part time and for a low wage just to make ends meet.
And low corruption? There is a lot of corruption in The Netherlands. 
But that corruption is limited to the "white collar" people. 
Captains of industry, politicians, some banking directors.
The real crooks can pay the best lawyers.
Justice doesn't work for the working class.

Yes, we're sliding into an American scenario.

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## Jacker22

> I think that there is no correlation. Haplo group E simply originates from areas where living conditions are harder then in North-West Europe. Compare the Balkan with counties like The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.
> In North West Europe the country is flat. That made it possible to build an economic infrastructure.
> An area with a lot of mountains makes it harder to develop.
> An exception may be Switzerland, but they had the advantage to have their banks.


The two richest countries in Europe are mountain countries, Norway and Switzerland. Britain and Ireland are hilly. Austria, France, Italy and Spain have quite a lot of mountains too. Ukraine, Belarus and Poland are poor and flat. There is no correlation at all !




> And low corruption? There is a lot of corruption in The Netherlands. 
> But that corruption is limited to the "white collar" people. 
> Captains of industry, politicians, some banking directors.
> The real crooks can pay the best lawyers.
> Justice doesn't work for the working class.


You confuse corruption and swindle or fraud. An example of corruption is having to pay a civil servant to get a government permit that you couldn't get otherwise. Another example is to have to pay the police so that they stop harassing you. Another example is a company that pays decision-makers in the administration to obtain a public contract. Tax evasion is fraud, not corruption. Theft, robbery, swindle are all crimes, but none are corruption. I don't see in what way Dutch bank directors could be corrupted. How often do you have to pay the bank clerk to speed up paperwork in the Netherlands ? How often are you told by a civil servant that something isn't possible, then suddenly becomes possible when you slide a few bank notes under the counter ? _That_ is the meaning of corruption.

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## how yes no 2

> I don't want to be controversial on purpose by starting a topic like this one but I couldn't help wonder why there is such a strong correlation between the percentage of haplogroup E in a country and the unemployment rate and low GDP per capita. 
> 
> Ranking of haplogroup E frequency in Europe
> 
> Albania 27.5%
> Macedonia 23%
> Serbia 20.5%
> Bulgaria 16%
> Bosnia-Herzegovina 14.5%
> ...


actually, key correlation is history...
best off are countries that didnot have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history.... also countries that were under communism perform worse because, due to following wrong advices of IMF, transition from one to another system was in general done too rapidly and improperly...

another thing is isolation... e.g. Albania lived isolated during most of it s communist period.... Serbia had several years of economical sanctions due to allegations that it was involved in civil wars in neighboring republics.... Serbia also had NATO bombing that targeted industry and infrastructure as well...


and there is another additional cause - climate...
people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany.... it is also a culture issue... while on south people could live well due to abundance of vegetation also during winter, people on north in past had to work more hard to survive...

so much about your haplogroup correlation...
in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..

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## Reinaert

> The two richest countries in Europe are mountain countries, Norway and Switzerland. Britain and Ireland are hilly. Austria, France, Italy and Spain have quite a lot of mountains too. Ukraine, Belarus and Poland are poor and flat. There is no correlation at all !


How_Yes_No explained that further. 
It's a complex story how one country got better developed than another.
But in general, a nice infrastructure helps.




> You confuse corruption and swindle or fraud. An example of corruption is having to pay a civil servant to get a government permit that you couldn't get otherwise. Another example is to have to pay the police so that they stop harassing you. Another example is a company that pays decision-makers in the administration to obtain a public contract. Tax evasion is fraud, not corruption. Theft, robbery, swindle are all crimes, but none are corruption. I don't see in what way Dutch bank directors could be corrupted. How often do you have to pay the bank clerk to speed up paperwork in the Netherlands ? How often are you told by a civil servant that something isn't possible, then suddenly becomes possible when you slide a few bank notes under the counter ? _That_ is the meaning of corruption.


Corruption and fraud is just the same. It's fraud altogether.
In The Netherlands corruption is an institution forced by the government upon the population by law.
It's ridiculous how many tax we have to pay!

People drive around with a sticker on their car..
"Don't steal this car, the state hates rivals."

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## edao

> and there is another additional cause - climate...
> people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany
> 
> in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
> and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..


The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing :Rolleyes: . Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!  :Laughing:  

America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.

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## edao

GDP per capita - image source

Haplogroup E (Y-dna)

image source

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## how yes no 2

> I just wonder how much E have the arab rich countries and how much GDP per capita???????
> 
> like Libya who's GDP is very big, but only few families that can have it,


Arab countries are reach only due to oil...

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## iapetoc

> The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
> I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing. Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!  
> 
> America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.



*what? California has same Depth as Greece and bigger it is rich but full of Depths
simply the USA system works differernt.

*


> Interesting topic of discussion. I have personally wonder why corruption was so high in rich places like Japan or northern Italy, where people obviously aren't needy. I had a look at the corruption index and saw that New Zealand was the 2nd least corrupted. It's interesting as the GDP per capita at PPP (the one that should have been used for the above study as it reflects better the disposable income of individuals once adjusted for the cost of life) of New Zealand is lower than Greece, but Greece happens to be the most corrupted country in the EU (more corrupted than poorer Eastern European countries; incidentally a major reason why Greece is having so much financial problems at the moment). 
> 
> So it doesn't look like corruption is related to poverty after all. Poverty surely has a detrimental effect on corruption, but if you compare countries of similar wealth and development, there will always be major differences in corruption level between them, especially if the language and culture are very different. English-speaking countries, for instance, have similar cultures and therefore don't vary much in corruption levels. Interestingly, even English-speaking countries where the population is overwhelmingly East Asian, like Hong Kong and Singapore, have very low corruption levels, whereas the country of their source populations (China, Malaysia, India) are very corrupted. One could argue that it is because they are rich city-states. However, Macau is about as rich, is just next door to Hong Kong, and yet has a much worse corruption score (5.0 against 8.4 for Hong Kong). So if anything had an influence on corruption levels, I would say it was language and (economic) culture.
> 
> As for the relation to haplogroup E, there is obviously some sort of correlation in Europe as the data shows. But haplogroup E is absent from Asia where there is also plenty of corruption. Perhaps the author suggested that some genes involved into the traits of character facilitating corruption migrated along with people who happened to belong to haplogroup E. If that is so, it would not mean that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more corruptible, but genes involved in corruptible character tend to be found at higher levels where the average rate of haplogroup E is higher within a specific population. It's like saying that blond hair were spread by people belonging to haplogroup R1a. It obviously doesn't mean that being R1a is the condition to be blond. Being R1a has no effect at all on hair colour. But the incidence of blond hair does tend to correlate with the incidence of R1a in a population. Regarding R1a the correlation works well for Europe, but less well in Asia. It could be the same for E1b1b and corruption in Europe. If the original people who spread E1b1b around Europe had genes strongly favouring corruption, then it is entirely possible that a true genetic correlation exists between the two. Just keep in mind that genes are never the only factor in human behaviour.



I know about DNA and sentimental, some genes may give another degree of sentiment due to produce more hormons or started more easily by an enzyma,
I know about DNA and strength or working power, like E Ydna people, have best athletic results in many sports but not in sports like sphere 

I just can not imagine what has to do with corruption,

*well I am waiting the author of the trhead to explain what means with word corruption,*

cause there are many corruptions,

now about Norway and sweden, hmmmm I wonder how much free land they have to use, 

example from an area of 10 000 m2 or an area of 40 000 m2 the result is different, 
If I give you the 2 fields and a tractor then surely the bigger will give better results,

I said about South Africa but no one answered, 
1 company gets all the rich of South Africa, 
if all south Africans had the diamonds of their land do you believe the GDP capita will be the same?

Now corruption has to do with tv cinema and life style,
in 1950 in Europe how many people smoking?
in 70s after watching John Wayne and others with a cigarette all day in mouth how many used to smoked?

the same is corruption, 
ok Greece is corrupted now days, 

but lets see the other case who is creating corruption 
the 4 biggest late scandals in Greece are
1 the siemens case
2 the ferostaal case
3 the vatopedi case
4 the stock exchange and the Golmans sachs connection,
as you see from 3/4 the corruption is also connected with non internal cases,

corruption has nothing to do with who is losing, but also who is earning,
in the above example like Siemans why are greeks corrupted and not Germans?

why the richest land in the world Kimberly in South Africa lives in such conditions,

And on the other hand lets see the social corruption?

Are the south Asian corrupted for selling their Kids to some rich people?
well yes 
but 
Are the Europeans and USAers corrupted who buy that kids from south Asia????
hmmm 

lets see the other case in time, 

in early 80s people lived in Greece with opened doors and cars with no alarm
today they are afraid to walk after 8:00 
why? cause that time due to low criminality the penalties were high and many cases reach the judge,
today law is so different that if I sent someone to judge I have to feed him for many days until the judge decides, 
that is bringing extra criminality but not written in police statistics cause no body goes to report.

now about corruption and DNA 
I believe corruption has to do with information, education, punishment, and media, and needs
when media all day show you 'famous women' you addicted to porn.
when the thieves are not punished then more thieves will born,

I wrote a thread about India and child marriage, as Pedophilia, 
for me it is a social corruption, but no body answer,
what about pedophilia in today western world?
what is difference among europe and India?
simply we hide behind and don't marry the kids. which is more corrupted for me at least in a social degree, 

I will go to nearby Italy, 
When Italy had strong Mafia, the rates of development where high, 
but criminality also, 
today with low rates of corruption has also low rates of development, if compared with earkier years, but surely low criminality,

the subject is more economical to me, 

about hong-kong lets go back and compare it with 70s corrupton where it was one of the highest criminality places, 

corruption has to do with Chigaco theory of moving capitals, 
when I move capitals from one area to another, 
1rst I must break the older social structure, 
2nd I must bomb their eyes with Dolce Vita, pretty woman, and consume my products
3rd I must create criminality, so normal people must afraid to talk or protest
4rth I must buy politicians to push my corruption work,

in1830 when potatoes came to Greece NOBODY EAT THEM AS IMPORTED CORRUPTED PRODUCT
after 2 years prime minister order to save them in national treasury, 
in 2 years potatoe was a fashion and a delicacy
it needed 5 years to persuade a Greek about potato,
and today with media the next day all go and buy new product 

Comparing with Time and the above I don't believe it is DNA the corruption, but mind and willing and sentimental,
simply DNA can give more sentimental degree,
like we both eat a delicacy but my joy is bigger than yours, 
but the case of 1830 Greeks as corrupted with today also is more a social issue and a way to think,
at 1930 greeks loved their donkeys and despite the cars, 
today they despite the donkeys and love cars,

*corruption comes when a twisted mind buys the soul of a poor man who's dream is to live at least 1 day as a Sultan*, to taste the forbiden to him


A child borned in an enviroment of critisism becomes a good judge,
A child raised in an enviroment of violence learns how to box
A child born in an enviroment of fortune hunt becomes corrupted,

Corruption in greece always existed, but ignition to high levels came after the 1950 with marshal plan
the times when whores get x10 x20 the money of a doctor in one night.




> Arab countries are reach only due to oil...


correct but GDP belongs only to few families who give money to rest according their will.

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## how yes no 2

> The climate argument is not plausible. Do people in warmer climates work outside?
> I'm not sure if you have heard of air conditioning, it's a new thing. Perhaps I should start a business selling it to southern Europeans because it's so much cooler here I can work faster, being generally more productive and revolutioninse the economies of the West with air conditioning units for offices!  
> 
> America is very warm in parts and California is the US biggest economy I believe so that theory doesn't add up.


lol, can't wait to see your construction sites or agriculture fields with ventilation.. 

besides, ventilation costs money... private company will not invest in it unless it has to...

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## Canek

it makes sense... 

we do not have too much E in latin america, and we are much less corrupted than many of the european countries in that list. 

our employment rate is the same as the richest countries for the most part, and our social conditions also.

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## spongetaro

Haplogroup E in South Eastern Europe correlates well with former Byzantium and Ottoman empire. Was there corruption in those two empire?

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## spongetaro

> it makes sense... 
> 
> we do not have too much E in latin america, and we are much less corrupted than many of the european countries in that list.


Latin america is one of the most corrupted part of the Planet

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## Ferreiro_

In Spain is there also link between haplogroup E, subclade E-M81 is the majority here, and poor economy.
The richest regions in Spain (Madrid apart) are the Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon and Catalonia, which are those that have less presence of E-M81.
Instead the poorest regions are regions where E-M81 is more abundant: Its High in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies Reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia Northwest and Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (nearly 40% in Valle del Pas). 
Although Cantabria is intermediate between the richest and the poorest.

Personally I think education is by far more important than the presence of Haplogroup E.

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## Maciamo

> actually, key correlation is history...
> best off are countries that didnot have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history.... also countries that were under communism perform worse because, due to following wrong advices of IMF, transition from one to another system was in general done too rapidly and improperly...


It is true that wars damage a lot economies, but most of Europe was at war between 1940 and 1945. Only a few countries like Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland escaped WWII. Ironically Ireland was still the poorest Western or Northern European country in the aftermath of WWII. Its dramatic economic growth started much later thanks to US investments. Apart from former Yugoslavia (which does not include Macedonia or Albania, btw), wars don't explain why the Balkans are so much poorer than the rest of Europe.




> another thing is isolation... e.g. Albania lived isolated during most of it s communist period.


Switzerland doesn't seem to have suffer too much from its self-imposed isolationist policy. They still don't want to join the EU, or NATO, or pretty much any other international organisation.





> and there is another additional cause - climate...
> people on north tend to be more hard working simply because it is so much easier to be hard working on 20 degrees Celsius than on 35 degrees..... it is just not equally easy to work in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and in Netherlands, Germany.... it is also a culture issue... while on south people could live well due to abundance of vegetation also during winter, people on north in past had to work more hard to survive...


So why is it that the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai are so hard working ? Northern China notwithstanding, their climate is hotter than pretty much anywhere in Europe. Most of Japan is subtropical (a bit like Florida). Besides Americans work hard in hot states like California, Arizona, Texas or Florida too. Australians are much more productive than most Mediterraneans, even though their climate is even hotter. 




> so much about your haplogroup correlation...
> in fact, this thread has racism in its basis...
> and there is some unjustified anti-Greek sentiment swaying over messages..


Haplogroup E has penetrated all populations of Europe. It is not unique to Greece, not even greater Greece with the Balkans and South Italy. Some parts of Greece have a lower percentage of haplogroup E than Belarus or West Germany !

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## Ferreiro_

> Haplogroup E has penetrated all populations of Europe. It is not unique to Greece, not even greater Greece with the Balkans and South Italy. Some parts of Greece have a lower percentage of haplogroup E than Belarus or West Germany !


Yes, almost all European countries have their small percentage of haplogroup E (exactly E-M78 in Central Europe and Balkans). But overall in Greece reaches over 25%, while in Belarus and Germany does not even reach 5%, Although figures vary from one sample to another.

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## Jacker22

> GDP per capita - image source
> 
> Haplogroup E (Y-dna)
> 
> image source


Good map ! Namibia and Botswana have much less haplogroup E and they are the two least corrupted African countries. Isn't that just amazing ! Botswana (index 5.8) is less corrupted than Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Namibia (4.4) is a bit more corrupted but less than Slovakia, Croatia, Turkey or anywhere in the Balkans.

In the Arabian peninsula, Yemen has the most haplogroup E and is the most corrupted (2.2). Oman (5.3) and the United Emirates (6.3) have the least haplogroup E and are the least corrupted. 

Morocco and Algeria have about as much haplogroup E as Yemen and have similar corruption indices (3.4 and 2.9). Somalia and Angola are dark green spots on the map, and are among the very worst countries for corruption (1.1 and 1.9). Whoa, it's almost mathematical !

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## Ferreiro_

> Good map ! Namibia and Botswana have much less haplogroup E and they are the two least corrupted African countries. Isn't that just amazing ! Botswana (index 5.8) is less corrupted than Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Namibia (4.4) is a bit more corrupted but less than Slovakia, Croatia, Turkey or anywhere in the Balkans.
> 
> In the Arabian peninsula, Yemen has the most haplogroup E and is the most corrupted (2.2). Oman (5.3) and the United Emirates (6.3) have the least haplogroup E and are the least corrupted. Morocco and Algeria is about as much haplogroup E as Yemen and have similar corruption indices (3.4 and 2.9). Whoa, it's almost mathematical !


 
There is a problem: Sudan, one of the most corrupt countries in the world. 
That map is too simple although it's valid to get a general idea about distribution of haplogroup E.

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## how yes no 2

> It is true that wars damage a lot economies, but most of Europe was at war between 1940 and 1945. Only a few countries like Switzerland, Sweden or Ireland escaped WWII. Ironically Ireland was still the poorest Western or Northern European country in the aftermath of WWII. Its dramatic economic growth started much later thanks to US investments.


wars damage economies, but can also depending on circumstances influence differently moral of different nations....

Switzerland and Scandinavian countries has continuity of development not really interrupted by second world war destructions....
most other west European countries also had lot of peaceful periods in last few honderd years...
and many of them were collonial powers, which means they were for long periods of history in posession of natural resources that didnot belong to them, and in possession of cheap labour of own colonies....


in Balkan, ever since 15th century, most countries were slaves of Otoman empire till 19th century (some as Albania and Macedonia even until short before first world war, and Bosnia until it was taken over by Austro-hungarian empire in the end of 19th century which was essentially just changing crude slave owner for more sophisticated one... ).. 

having no state of your own means being someone's colony.... and that is not really good environment to develop economy or working habits....

In Serbia, between 15th and 19th century, Serbs did live only in villages...while towns were populated by Turks, and islamized Serbs who were by ordinary people denounced as "Turks" worse than Turks (e.g. I have read that ancestors of Bosnian muslims war leader Alija Izetbegovic were such islamized family that was ruling in Belgrade area, and were after liberation forced to leave Serbia) ... 

thing is that in Ottoman empire in Balkan taxes for non-islamic population were extremely high, while taxes for islamic people were not existing..... so there was no chance to have own economy... working hard didnot pay off... more hard you work more you give to Turks (mostly to "Turks" who needed to live in comfort without working), and same is left to you... 

as soon as there was (happened after WW2) period of few decades of peace and having own country, ex-yugoslavia was fast among more developed countries in Europe...

regarding non-Balkan countries with some haplogroup E....
how could African countries develop when they were colonies till quite recently... it meant that they have their own Turks and "Turks".... since they did not liberate themselves, once their Turks were gone after world war 2, they still had "Turks" in power and both "Turks"and Turks as owners of resources... in economical sense, Africa is still a colony... besides, climate there is terrible.... and big part of wealth of west europe is due to centuries of stealing resources from colonies like the ones in Africa... so, if moral values are changing, I would expect that west europe helps its ex-colonies to compensate for centuries of hampering their development and stealing their resources...... though now we have a case that ex-colony helps ex-owner in case of Brasil and Portugal....




> Apart from former Yugoslavia (which does not include Macedonia or Albania, btw), wars don't explain why the Balkans are so much poorer than the rest of Europe.


former Yugoslavia does include Macedonia
and there was also war in Macedonia - between Macedonians and Albanians who live there... perhaps it was not so much covered in media because both sides were considered allies of west, so it was not easy to assign black and white roles to sides.... same as armed conflicts between muslims and Croats in Bosnia were hardly covered by west media....





> Switzerland doesn't seem to have suffer too much from its self-imposed isolationist policy. They still don't want to join the EU, or NATO, or pretty much any other international organisation.


I wouldnot call that isolationism... they just refuse to participate in organizations that in their opinion will not bring them benefit..... they do not cut economy flows...

isolationism of communist albania meant it is not ready to coperate with either west or east countries due to ideological differences....
economic isolation of Serbia was enforced by UN and meant no flow of economy over the borders...

neither is comparable to a country choosing not to join EU or NATO....
it is like you compare imprisoned person placed in solitary with a person who doesnot want to be a member of local library or video club...




> So why is it that the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai are so hard working ? Northern China notwithstanding, their climate is hotter than pretty much anywhere in Europe. Most of Japan is subtropical (a bit like Florida). Besides Americans work hard in hot states like California, Arizona, Texas or Florida too. Australians are much more productive than most Mediterraneans, even though their climate is even hotter.


Japanese are exceptional in many cases... 
the others are not much more efficent than Mediterranian or Balkan people...

----------


## Carlitos

So if I understand the E haplogroup in Europe is higher than the other haplogroups despite being a minority in most countries, because being a minority is capable of cornering power, reaching the highest levels of the countries and after exercise corruption, seems like science fiction.

----------


## iapetoc

I just wonder,

ancient rome,

people vote someone for a bucket of wheat,

Did ancient rome had E Y-DNA??????

----------


## Carlitos

If E is attributed to E Europe's responsibility for corruption to be a minority in each country, because the R in poor countries are still a minority are not able to bring their countries to the welfare and wealth?

Why do not you, if I be a minority in Europe has so much power that is able to come to power and profit also, why the R of Africa, the Middle East so they can not do anything for your country?

----------


## Maciamo

> Switzerland and Scandinavian countries has continuity of development not really interrupted by second world war destructions....
> most other west European countries also had lot of peaceful periods in last few honderd years...
> 
> in Balkan, ever since 15th century, most countries were slaves of Otoman empire till 19th century (some as Albania and Macedonia even until short before first world war, and Bosnia until it was taken over by Austro-hungarian empire in the end of 19th century which was essentially just changing crude slave owner for more sophisticated one... ).. 
> 
> having no state of your own means being someone's colony.... and that is not really good environment to develop economy or working habits....
> 
> and many of them were collonial powers, which means they were for long periods of history in posession of natural resources that didnot belong to them, and in possession of cheap labour of own colonies....


Most of Europe was at war most of the time from the Middle Ages onwards. France were pretty much at war all the time either against the Brits, the Germans or the Spaniards. Germany and Italy were divided for centuries by constant internecine wars. Compare to that the Balkans were one of the most stable regions of Europe from the Byzantine period until WWI. Consider that the Balkans remained part of the same big empire based in Constantinople/Istanbul for over 1500 years ! The empire just happened to change name, ruler and official language and religion once in 1453. One change of system in 1500 years, that is the ideal of stability by any country's standard.

It's easy to say that the Byzantines or the Turks were evil rulers who saw the provinces of their empire as colonies to be exploited. They were not more so than the Kings of France in Paris exploited the resources and people from the French provinces, or the Spanish rulers in Toledo/Madrid with the Spanish regions. If you bring up the fact that people speak different languages than Greek or Turkish in Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria and so on, the same is true for the regions of France, and Spain to a lower extent. Until the First World War hardly anybody could speak French in the lower half of France. They spoke Occitan, Provençal, Basque, Catalan... in hundreds of dialects, and few people outside cities felt French. In the northern half, people spoke Breton, Flemish, Alsatian German, in addition to the dialects of French. Nowadays the Balkans look like a mosaic of clear-cut countries with their own culture and language, but 100 years ago it wasn't the case. People spoke Turkish + local dialects throughout the Ottoman Empire, just like people spoke French + local dialects throughout France. The Ottoman Empire was dismantled and Turkish language abandoned outside Turkey, while France wasn't dismantled and benefited from compulsory education and the mass media to spread the use of Parisian French. Only 50 years ago over 80% of Italians couldn't speak Italian but just their local dialects, many of which are utterly unintelligible to Italian speakers. You just cannot think of the world a few centuries ago as if it was the world today. People didn't think in term of nationality until the late 19th century. Official languages weren't widespread until the middle of the 20th century.




> regarding non-Balkan countries with some haplogroup E....
> how could African countries develop when they were colonies till quite recently..


The question is rather why were they so little developed so late resulting in their being colonised so easily ?





> and big part of wealth of west europe is due to centuries of stealing resources from colonies like the ones in Africa..


This is ridiculous. You can say that European colonists exploited local populations in Africa all you want, but saying that they were stealing natural resources from them is nonsensical, because it didn't belong to them any more than to anyone else. First of all, they didn't have property laws in Africa before the European colonisation. Secondly, they had no use of, or didn't attach much value to most minerals or precious stones mined by the Europeans. Thirdly, nowadays mining or petrol companies have the right to buy land and extract resources from it, be it in Europe, America, Asia, Africa or Oceania. It's not stealing if you buy the land. It is utterly ridiculous to think that the natural resources of a land belong to its native people. This is hunter-gatherer thinking. Since the time agriculture started and cities developed, human beings have acquired the sense of private property (and state property as well). Since when does the coal from under your feet, or the petrol in a field or gold in a river belong to the nation ? Even the Communists would say it is state property, not public property to be divided equally between "the natives" of the land. So no Westerners didn't and don't steal natural resources from the Americas, Africa or Australia from the natives because it didn't belong to them and in most cases weren't even aware of their existence or their usage. Even today, what would coltan or uranium be of any use to a Congolese ? What is bauxite or lanthanum be worth to an Australian aborigine ? How many of them even know what it is ?




> Japanese are exceptional in many cases... 
> the others are not much more efficent than Mediterranian or Balkan people...


I didn't say efficient, but hard working. The Japanese are extremely hard working but not very efficient as they do not generate more GDP per capita than most Western countries. East Asians are all much harder working than Mediterraneans, despite hotter climate. That was the point debated.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Most of Europe was at war most of the time from the Middle Ages onwards. France were pretty much at war all the time either against the Brits, the Germans or the Spaniards. Germany and Italy were divided for centuries by constant internecine wars.


it is not comparable...
you will see why...




> Compare to that the Balkans were one of the most stable regions of Europe from the Byzantine period until WWI. Consider that the Balkans remained part of the same big empire based in Constantinople/Istanbul for over 1500 years !The empire just happened to change name, ruler and official language and religion once in 1453. One change of system in 1500 years, that is the ideal of stability by any country's standard.


complete non-sense...

Byzantine empire and Ottoman empire are different in every way...
with Byzantine empire one could trade, make wars and make peace and negotiate...
with Turks rebelion meant this



and this



with Byzantine empire if soverenity was temporary lost, taxes were paid by local ruler who acknowledged Byzantine power... this was often symbolic thing... it was about local rulers siding with each other against Byzantine or with Byzantine against other local rulers....

with Turks taxes were per capita, calculated to leave to people not more than needed for survival, and collected in every village... if a village runs a way, neighbouring villages need to collect more....

there was also so called "payment in blood", which meant taking by force little boys occasionally, and taking them a way to Turkey to become brain washed into Turks and soldiers of Turkish empire...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danak_u_krvi





> It's easy to say that the Byzantines or the Turks were evil rulers who saw the provinces of their empire as colonies to be exploited. They were not more so than the Kings of France in Paris exploited the resources and people from the French provinces, or the Spanish rulers in Toledo/Madrid with the Spanish regions.


complete and utter rubbish...
first of all Ottoman empire and Byzantine empire are not comparable at all...
Ottoman empire was unprecedented level of cruelty...
there is no trace of continuity between two..... 




> The question is rather why were they so little developed so late resulting in their being colonised so easily ?


who was colonised easily?
Serbs lost epic battle on Kosovo field when they were grossly outnumbered.... actually battle was kind of even, cause both rulers died...and it took some years for Turks army to recover and restart Balkan conquest..

and even after that it took around 70 years for Serb states to completely lose soverenity....
it is similar story with other Balkan people...




> This is ridiculous. You can say that European colonists exploited local populations in Africa all you want, but saying that they were stealing natural resources from them is nonsensical, because it didn't belong to them any more than to anyone else.


if you have a house, and someone moves in and take valuables that you had in house, that is stealing... even if your house is in mid of nowhere and no laws exist...




> First of all, they didn't have property laws in Africa before the European colonisation.


oh, so it is not stealing if there is no law...
so, you find yourself with other forum members in desolated small island with no state and no laws... is it ok if someone stronger confiscates all your posessions?





> Secondly, they had no use of, or didn't attach much value to most minerals or precious stones mined by the Europeans.


yes, worthless gold, diamonds and oil....




> Thirdly, nowadays mining or petrol companies have the right to buy land and extract resources from it, be it in Europe, America, Asia, Africa or Oceania. It's not stealing if you buy the land. It is utterly ridiculous to think that the natural resources of a land belong to its native people. This is hunter-gatherer thinking.


I am fine with being called hunter gatherer




> Since the time agriculture started and cities developed, human beings have acquired the sense of private property (and state property as well). Since when does the coal from under your feet, or the petrol in a field or gold in a river belong to the nation ? Even the Communists would say it is state property, not public property to be divided equally between "the natives" of the land. So no Westerners didn't and don't steal natural resources from the Americas, Africa or Australia from the natives because it didn't belong to them and in most cases weren't even aware of their existence or their usage. Even today, what would coltan or uranium be of any use to a Congolese ? What is bauxite or lanthanum be worth to an Australian aborigine ? How many of them even know what it is ?


if you keep diamonds in your house and do not use it to cut stones, it doesnot mean it is useless to you and you do not need it so whoever is stronger than you can feel free to take it...





> I didn't say efficient, but hard working. The Japanese are extremely hard working but not very efficient as they do not generate more GDP per capita than most Western countries. East Asians are all much harder working than Mediterraneans, despite hotter climate. That was the point debated.


As I said cultural development also counts....
People on Mediterranian could have good life more easily than people in those countries...



besides, whole topic is pointless as people from Balkan who work in west Europe are typically much more hard working than native people.... so it is not about people, but about context determined by history...

----------


## Maciamo

> Byzantine empire and Ottoman empire are different in every way...
> with Byzantine empire one could trade, make wars and make peace and negotiate...
> with Turks rebelion meant this


You are reversing the roles. The most famous impaler in history is Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, known to history as Vlad III the Impaler. He was a Balkanic man impaling tens of thousands of Turks, not the other way round.





> with Turks taxes were per capita, calculated to leave to people not more than needed for survival, and collected in every village... if a village runs a way, neighbouring villages need to collect more....


This is not a specificity of the Turks. Most despotic rulers in history, be them Chinese, Turkish, French or Russian squeezed their peasantry financially to get as rich as possible and keep lowly people in a state of semi-starvation that prevented them to defy authority. If it hadn't been the Turks in the Balkans it would have been someone else, not necessarily for the better. Do you think they would have been better off under Tsarist Russian rule, or under a home-grown tyrant like Vlad the Impaler ?





> complete and utter rubbish...
> first of all Ottoman empire and Byzantine empire are not comparable at all...
> Ottoman empire was unprecedented level of cruelty...
> there is no trace of continuity between two.....


No trace of continuity except the borders, the capital, the centralised system... The Turkish takeover of the Byzantine empire was very slow and progressive. The Turks arrived in Anatolia in the 11th century, but didn't complete their conquest until 1453. These four centuries gave them enough time to adopt many local customs and copy the Byzantine in quite a few ways. Besides, the Turks saw themselves as the heir of the Byzantines. The Seljuks first founded the Sultanate of Rûm, a word derived from Rome.





> who was colonised easily?


The Africans.




> if you have a house, and someone moves in and take valuables that you had in house, that is stealing... even if your house is in mid of nowhere and no laws exist...


Who are you referring to ? Did Europeans steal huts from Africans ?  :Wary: 





> oh, so it is not stealing if there is no law...


We are talking about natural resources, not personal belongings. Even today, in many Western countries, if you find petrol or gold in your garden it doesn't belong to you but to the state. Even with modern laws you don't always own what is in the land you officially own. In the UK all land belongs to the Queen. If you buy a property in the UK, you only lease the land from the Crown for 1000 years (or less if you buy the lease from someone else).





> so, you find yourself with other forum members in desolated small island with no state and no laws... is it ok if someone stronger confiscates all your posessions?


Why are you talking about possessions ? I am sick of idiots like you who can't read and misquote every line I write to outrageous proportions. I was strictly referring to natural resources. 




> yes, worthless gold, diamonds and oil....


What was it worth to them before Europeans came ? Petrol was worthless to anyone before it was used to make kerosene for lamps and fuel for combustion engines in the late 19th century.




> As I said cultural development also counts....
> People on Mediterranian could have good life more easily than people in those countries...


That's not the point debated. Stop changing the topic all the time. I argued that cold weather in northern Europe was not the reason why northern Europeans were harder working than southern Europeans. My examples were northern Europeans working in the southern USA or Australia, or East Asians working in hotter conditions than the Mediterranean. This thread started with the assumption that countries with more haplogroup E were poorer and had more unemployment. You said it was because it is easier to work when it is 20°C than 35°C. I pointed out the flaws in your argument. End of discussion.

----------


## iapetoc

> You are reversing the roles. The most famous impaler in history is Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, known to history as Vlad III the Impaler. He was a Balkanic man impaling tens of thousands of Turks, not the other way round.


yes cause he follow the ottomans way, 
he fought fire with fire,

just read about greek revolt,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasios_Diakos

they impale and burn him

there are many cases which If i write will take days,

Byzantines favor was to cut nose, ears, etc, blind 1 eye
to put you a stigma, (compare with later french tattoo)
turks favor was the impale horizontal and burn him like you cook a lamp in coal,
and take off the skin from your body. 
besides all these tortures are known from the roman times,
from the cristian martyrs by romans and from the greek who were tortured by christians,


the impale, the cross etc are known in middle east from, far ancient,

even today some tribes impale goat heads as a mark of don't enter,

----------


## how yes no 2

> You are reversing the roles. The most famous impaler in history is Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, known to history as Vlad III the Impaler. He was a Balkanic man impaling tens of thousands of Turks, not the other way round.


No offence, but you speak about things that you obviously do not have a clue about.
Ottoman soldiers were well known for impaling... 
I couldnot care less if Dracula also used it...
Dracula is one single Romanian noble... he is not representative of all Balkan people....
while on other hand impaling was one of the key ways of punishing that Ottoman army applied...

learn to distinguish behavior of individuals from organized behavior of certain group...
that is elementary logic....

mapping a behavior of single individual or small group of people into opinion about ethnic groups or wider regions they belong to, is a way of thinking typical for islamic terrorists... e.g. they are pissed off because of ill politics of USA goverment, so they map their anger to all citizens of USA because they do not distinguish the two.... it is utterly low civilization level... I thought you are much more advanced than that with your talks about individualism versus group behavior... but seems you are heavily into group behavior as well... 







> This is not a specificity of the Turks. Most despotic rulers in history, be them Chinese, Turkish, French or Russian squeezed their peasantry financially to get as rich as possible and keep lowly people in a state of semi-starvation that prevented them to defy authority. If it hadn't been the Turks in the Balkans it would have been someone else, not necessarily for the better. Do you think they would have been better off under Tsarist Russian rule, or under a home-grown tyrant like Vlad the Impaler ?


yes. anyone would be better than Turks... 

why do you think so many Serbs moved from Kosovo and Macedonia to Austro-Hungaria where they served as military units on border....
if Austro-Hungary was same as Turkey, why would they move out, sometimes organized as in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoba_Srba





> No trace of continuity except the borders, the capital, the centralised system... The Turkish takeover of the Byzantine empire was very slow and progressive. The Turks arrived in Anatolia in the 11th century, but didn't complete their conquest until 1453. These four centuries gave them enough time to adopt many local customs and copy the Byzantine in quite a few ways. Besides, the Turks saw themselves as the heir of the Byzantines. The Seljuks first founded the Sultanate of Rûm, a word derived from Rome.


well, with your reasoning USA is clear continuity from state of native Indians...
same bloody country...






> We are talking about natural resources, not personal belongings. Even today, in many Western countries, if you find petrol or gold in your garden it doesn't belong to you but to the state. Even with modern laws you don't always own what is in the land you officially own. In the UK all land belongs to the Queen. If you buy a property in the UK, you only lease the land from the Crown for 1000 years (or less if you buy the lease from someone else).


now I know I will never buy land in uk....

don't you think that perhaps all the land where zulu's lived belonged to Zulu king? Do you think someone leased it from him to dig for diamonds?





> Why are you talking about possessions ? I am sick of *idiots like you* who can't read and misquote every line I write to outrageous proportions. I was strictly referring to natural resources.


did you just call me idiot?

you should learn to pay attention on what you write...
and not to try desperately to still be in right even after realizing that you were claiming something dumb or incorrect or impolite...
this is not a duel...
it is just a conversation...
so calm down...

when you claim something dumb, just acknowledge it and life goes on....
who cares anyway....




> What was it worth to them before Europeans came ? Petrol was worthless to anyone before it was used to make kerosene for lamps and fuel for combustion engines in the late 19th century.


sure, I bet you have a room that you do not use...
let's move in some junky...






> That's not the point debated. Stop changing the topic all the time. I argued that cold weather in northern Europe was not the reason why northern Europeans were harder working than southern Europeans. My examples were northern Europeans working in the southern USA or Australia, or East Asians working in hotter conditions than the Mediterranean. This thread started with the assumption that countries with more haplogroup E were poorer and had more unemployment. You said it was because it is easier to work when it is 20°C than 35°C. I pointed out the flaws in your argument. End of discussion.


you took one part of my climate argument and disregarded the second part... so I did bring it up again to remind you on complete climate argument...

----------


## Gusar

Come on Maciamo, your attempt to paint the East Roman & Ottoman Empires as interchangeable is utterly ridiculous. You are clearly a very intelligent & knowledgable person and I love to pop in and read your posts but it's also no secret (well believe me it's obvious to a lot of us) that you have a massive Barbarian bias that interrupts your objectivity... btw, of course we would have preferred the yoke of your Hapsburgs over the completely alien Ottomans at any given stage of our history.

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## Canek

Why do I always sense a bit of anti-turkish feeling in this forum?

Turkish history is not that different from other european countries... they did their good and bad things.

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## Gusar

The Turks certainly united Europeans (and slavic peoples a lot in particular) in a struggle against them... contributing a lot to the ethnic consciousness of peoples. Check out the Battle of Kosovo or the Battle of Vienna and the Holy League to understand how many of us have related to Turks through history.

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## Maciamo

> yes. anyone would be better than Turks... 
> 
> why do you think so many Serbs moved from Kosovo and Macedonia to Austro-Hungaria where they served as military units on border....
> if Austro-Hungary was same as Turkey, why would they move out, sometimes organized as in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoba_Srba


Your point of view seems to be exclusively pro-Serbian (are you a Serb by the way ?). The Bosnians and the Albanians became Muslims under Ottoman rule (perhaps to avoid the tax on non-Muslims). The Serbs resisted. Not everybody in the Balkans was anti-Turkish under Ottoman rule. It's especially from the mid-19th century, under European influence that people in the Balkans revolted and declared their independence one by one.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Your point of view seems to be exclusively pro-Serbian (are you a Serb by the way ?).


I think my origin is clear from my posts... I even explained several times in past that country that was written under my nick is country where I live and that I am originally from Serbia...




> The Bosnians and the Albanians became Muslims under Ottoman rule (perhaps to avoid the tax on non-Muslims). The Serbs resisted. Not everybody in the Balkans was anti-Turkish under Ottoman rule. It's especially from the mid-19th century, *under European influence* that people in the Balkans revolted and declared their independence one by one.


Balkan is also Europe, so Balkan people could not have been under European influence....
they could have been under influence of national romanticism movements that were swaying through the Europe....

but it was not really like that..... romanticism is issue of elite and literate people while non-islamic people in Ottoman empire lived in villages and were mostly illiterate... educated part of Serbs lived in Austro-Hungary...that difference also helps understanding different nature of the two empires.... in Austro-Hungarian empire you may have been minority but you were also human being and had some rights, in Ottoman empire if you were christian you were nothing...e.g. law system applied is described in Serb saying "kadija te tuzi, kadija ti sudi" (kadija accuses you, kadija makes a sentence) "kadija" is person (a Turk or a "Turk") in charge of an area... he has absolute rights...he is the law and can do whatever he wants with you...

anyway, uprisings were completely done by Serbs from Ottoman empire so they are not likely to have been influenced by romanticism... it just happened that on start of 19th century due to Turkey being somewhat weaker than before, the opportunity to liberate themselves opened up for Balkan people... this was slow process... first big uprising than losing country again, than next big uprising, than diplomatic step by step liberation... 


point is that rebellions against Turks never ceased and the military border of Austro-Hungary was moved forward and backward occasionally.....in 19th century however Turkish empire started to lose some of its power (also due to clashes it had with Russian empire), and that created opportunity for Balkan people to try to liberate themselves....

Btw. it is incorrect to say that Bosnians and Albanians became muslims... only some of them did...
only part of Bosnia Slavic people did become muslims... it is incorrect to call them Bosnians, because also Croats and Serbs who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina are native Bosnians... Bosna is just geographic term and it was one of the middle age states... it is not nationality... only after second world war those muslim people became separate nationality (Muslims written with capital "M") and only in 90s they took over name and identity related to Bosna... ridicilously, also Muslims from Serbia whose ancestors never lived in Bosnia call themselves Bosniacs....

Bosniacs are not more Bosnians than Bosnian orthodox and catholic christians who identify as Serbs and Croats... in fact so called Bosniacs would be least native of those 3 because they have some genetic and cultural/language admixture of Turks, while other two do not... Albanians are also not all muslims....Kosovo Albanians became muslims as that gave them power over Serbs who lived there... in albania proper many kept their christian religions....same as with name Bosniacs, name Kosovars is also invented in 90s to create media effect of creating impression and thus implicit assumption of them being more native..introducing those names was just a propaganda trick... there are no Kosovars, there are only Albanians from Kosovo...there are no Bosniacs, there are Bosnians that include not just muslim population but also catholic Croats and orthodox Serbs of Bosnia... muslim people of Bosnia who try to present themselves as exclusive inheritors of medieval pre-Ottoman history of christian people from the area is utterly shameless....

----------


## iapetoc

> Your point of view seems to be exclusively pro-Serbian (are you a Serb by the way ?). The Bosnians and the Albanians became Muslims under Ottoman rule (perhaps to avoid the tax on non-Muslims). The Serbs resisted. Not everybody in the Balkans was anti-Turkish under Ottoman rule. It's especially from the mid-19th century, under European influence that people in the Balkans revolted and declared their independence one by one.



nope the first revolt is recorded in 1670 in trebizond, 
their resist is known in many places like crocodile kladas, kalhmerhdes in crete, aouts in pontic people,klephtes, armatoloi,
the first organised revolt is under Orlof 1770 about brothers but became massacre due typical russia promised 27 ship and only 3 came, 
the naval wars among greeks and turks are mentioned from 1750
greeks act like pirates in ships of ottomans that carry taxes etc, 

if we pass the 1670 trebizond revolt then surely we go to 1750 about greek pirates and revolt of islands and enter venice empire,

Balkans were either venice either turkish, cause they both had secret relations, 
the most organised is considered the 1770 revolt that means 18 th century 

just remember in France revolution Greeks lived in Masalleia Marseille and served as navy, and troops
from marseille comes a very know Greek Hero

case of Napoleon and Epirus

you are correct about tax payers, 

in fact in balkans only 4 nations existed at 1700, Greeks serbs turks and romanians.

Arnaouts were very well serving turkish army and also make troubles with turkish agas, bulgarians were lost and almost lost until St Stephan, and croats were Austrian -connected and Venice service, slovenians were in dilema of serbs austrian and italian.

fyrom bosna are modern artificial nations.

----------


## Ferreiro_

> Yes, almost all European countries have their small percentage of haplogroup E (exactly E-M78 in Central Europe and Balkans). But overall in Greece reaches over 25%, while in Belarus and Germany does not even reach 5%, Although figures vary from one sample to another.


Ok. Those percentages depend on the sample. According to this article Belarus has 10%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

----------


## iapetoc

> Hmm.. Still an equation that doesn't fit. It seems new racism has been established. War between the I's and the E's.
> 
> How stupid can you get? 
> 
> My management teacher already told me many years ago that statistics are a higher form of lying.
> With statistics you can manipulate anything into your own advantage.
> 
> I know some people in my region that have YDNA E, and they are intellectuals, one does even a great job (no pay) to look into archives and make short descriptions about the contents. 
> Just for other scholars to be able to investigate.
> Real altruism, completely the opposite of corruption!




INDEED, 

i WONDER IF THERE IS TWISTED FRACTURE AMONG y-dna 

i WONDER WHO IS THE MOST TWISTED?

THE CORRUPTED OR THE ONE WHO CORRUPTS,

----------


## Maciamo

> Come on Maciamo, your attempt to paint the East Roman & Ottoman Empires as interchangeable is utterly ridiculous. You are clearly a very intelligent & knowledgable person and I love to pop in and read your posts but it's also no secret (well believe me it's obvious to a lot of us) that you have a massive Barbarian bias that interrupts your objectivity... btw, of course we would have preferred the yoke of your Hapsburgs over the completely alien Ottomans at any given stage of our history.


First of all, I did not want to depict the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire as interchangeable. The problem of forums is that people easily lose track of how and why arguments were put forward. Let's rewind a bit.

A) In the OP, Jacker22 proposed the hypothesis that the percentage of haplogroup E in a population correlated with corruption, unemployment and lower GDP per capita.

B) How yes no refuted this correlation, stating that : "_best off are countries that did not have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history_."

C) To which I replied that the Balkans actually suffered less wars in the last 1500 years than Western Europe (I gave the example of France being at war pretty much constantly with its neighbours, and internecine wars within Germany and within Italy). While wars of conquest were being waged in most of Europe, borders redrawn constantly from the Middle Ages until WWII, most of the Balkans (except Romania) were a region of relative stability in comparison because they only changed ruler and system once in roughly 1000 years (or twice in 1500 years if we count the Bulgarian Empire). During the same period the region that is now Belgium changed hands *9 times* before becoming an independent country in 1830, and that is without counting the numerous wars fought by other countries on its territory (including Louis XIV and Louis XV against the Spaniards, English and Dutch, and Napoleon against all Europe, and the Germans invading neutral Belgium to invade France in WWI and WWII). The Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia) only changed hands three times between the Roman conquest 2000 years ago and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. They were Roman/Byzantine, then Bulgarian Turk, then Ottoman Turk. Very few wars were fought in the Balkans between the 11th and the late 19th century, apart from the Ottoman conquest itself. The main battles fought with neighbouring superpowers took place in WWI and WWII, except the war between Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, which was staged mainly in Romania, Hungary and Austria (so around the Carpathians rather than the Balkans).

*My point was therefore that poverty in the Balkans couldn't be explained by a particular profusion of wars in its history compared to Western Europe.* My argument had nothing to do with the cultural or political differences between Byzantines and Ottomans. That was one transition, one empire being taken over in its entirety by another, even if they were very different people with a different languages and religions. Local languages survived throughout the Ottoman Empire anyway (there was no real will to obliterate them and force people to speak Turkish), and religion was free too (no Inquisition, just a tax on people who chose no to convert to Islam, but many people in the Balkans did convert). So even that wasn't a terrible problem.

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## Maciamo

> THE CORRUPTED OR THE ONE WHO CORRUPTS,


These are two faces of the same coin. Corruption cannot exist without a mutual agreement between the corrupter and the corrupted. If someone has strong principles against corruption, he/she will not try to corrupt and will not accept proposals of corruption.




> corruption has to do with poverty,
> 
> not with Y-DNA


Most traits of characters are hereditary, therefore genetic. This is why different breeds of dogs have clearly different characters (some more aggressive, some more sociable, some more protective, some more playful, some better at herding, some better at helping people...). Even religiosity and sexual faithfulness are deeply rooted in our genes. I doubt that corruptibility isn't. However it is almost certain that the Y-chromosome has no effect on it. The genes is almost certainly autosomal, but could have been spread by people carrying one or several specific haplogroups. In fact, genes are always spread by people from one region to other regions. People from a specific region will carry haplogroups specific to that region. Consequently there can be a correlation between the spread of autosomal genes and one or a few Y-DNA haplogroups. 

For example, Hemochromatosis and Huntington disease originated in the Scandinavian population. The Vikings spread them to the regions they conquered. Because the Vikings carried (among others) I1 lineages, it can be said that there is a link between the diffusion of I1 by the Vikings and these two diseases. It doesn't mean that an Irish or North French person who belongs to I1 will have these diseases of course. But the incidence of both diseases will probably correlate to the percentage of I1 in a region, because they "travel" in the local gene pool.

I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.

As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.



Thalassemia has a similar distribution but fills the gaps in North Africa, Iberia and southern France too.



Hot weather isn't the reason of lower activity in Southeast Europe; malaria is (or rather was, but contributed in changing people's genes).

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## Jacker22

I have to thank Maciamo for his support here. His argumentation makes a lot of sense. Bringing up sickle cell anemia and thalassemia add strength to the theory. I for one never thought that belonging to haplogroup E makes a person more lazy or corrupt, but the correlation between poor economic indicators and haplogroup E was there. I think that Maciamo managed to identify the genetic factor that is linked to haplogroup E and induces these economic troubles. Whatever the history of the Balkans, how could south Italy be blighted by rampant unemployment for so long and be so much poorer when the north, the same country, is hugely prosperous ? What I noticed was that haplogroup E was twice as frequent in the south. The map shows that sickle cell anemia is only a problem in the south. Genetically induced anemia may account for unemployment and low GDP per capita, but I don't think it explains corruption unless corruption is caused by poverty or laziness.

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## Maciamo

> Yes, almost all European countries have their small percentage of haplogroup E (exactly E-M78 in Central Europe and Balkans). But overall in Greece reaches over 25%, while in Belarus and Germany does not even reach 5%, Although figures vary from one sample to another.


It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).

As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.

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## spongetaro

> This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace.


10% of E in Alsace is interesting. I wonder which subclade of E is this

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## Maciamo

> 10% of E in Alsace is interesting. I wonder which subclade of E is this


I have the data from Ramos-Luis et al. (2009). It says that 6.25% of Alsatians belong to E1b1b1a and 3.75% belong to E1b1b1c1. According to the ISOGG phylogeny of 2009, E1b1b1a would be E-M78 and E1b1b1c1 would be E-M34 (subclade of M123). It is likely that a good deal of the E-M78 is actually E-V13 because this is by far the most common subclade in Belgium. 70% haplogroup E subclades in Belgium are M78, including 55% of V13. 25% are are M34. The proportions of M78 to M34 in Belgium and Alsace are not that different. The Belgian data is more accurate as it relies on 1000 samples, against only 80 for Alsace.

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## spongetaro

It seems that the Marne-Moselle celtic culture brought a great deal of E

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## Carlitos

Many explanations for phenomena have their basis in human DNA or the genes that is organized, which in combination with other genes are compressed into compact complex structures called chromosomes. The human being in his cell has 46 chromosomes, 23 contributed by the father and 23 provided by the mother at the time of fertilization. Alli is the information of the product of conception, rather in the interaction of genes of the father and mother during intrauterine gestation.

This preamble is to argue that over time the social phenomena and tried to explain human behavior to scientific knowledge throwing hand to support philosophical doctrines and find arguments to justify some policies implemented by groups or centers of power. With money, you could finance-oriented research results that favor the tenets of the groups power to enforce repressive policies pricipalmente. To achieve the desired impact is attributed to genes characteristic of "control, programming and determination" would be expressed in the individual socially active, which would mean that certain features such as violence, crime and other social ills would be transmitted from parents to children . The DNA is actually innocent of these charges as sindo a central molecule in the complex field of existence, is also a very passive molecule that does nothing if other molecules do not interact with it. The DNA is in the cell waiting to be read as a recipe in a cookbook, to claim otherwise is a mistake and a very dangerous practice because, falls in the field of genetic manipulation and discrimination.


It is difficult to summarize a complex subject as fascinating. Many of the ideas and arguments put to the discussion forum, have a kinship sopechosamente similar to the neoconservative and neoliberal ideas of American thought. Poverty as a genetic explanation and lower intelectualmennte poor out of their condition! The rich, the owner and emprendeor of success would be genetically predetermined by law to succeed and that biological order is established in the genes, which could defendense as a matter to divine or sacred!

Poor poor things, condemned by divine law, by statute biological, genetic and by law the law of man!

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## Maciamo

> Many explanations for phenomena have their basis in human DNA or the genes that is organized, which in combination with other genes are compressed into compact complex structures called chromosomes. The human being in his cell has 46 chromosomes, 23 contributed by the father and 23 provided by the mother at the time of fertilization. Alli is the information of the product of conception, rather in the interaction of genes of the father and mother during intrauterine gestation.
> 
> This preamble is to argue that over time the social phenomena and tried to explain human behavior to scientific knowledge throwing hand to support philosophical doctrines and find arguments to justify some policies implemented by groups or centers of power. With money, you could finance-oriented research results that favor the tenets of the groups power to enforce repressive policies pricipalmente. To achieve the desired impact is attributed to genes characteristic of "control, programming and determination" would be expressed in the individual socially active, which would mean that certain features such as violence, crime and other social ills would be transmitted from parents to children . The DNA is actually innocent of these charges as sindo a central molecule in the complex field of existence, is also a very passive molecule that does nothing if other molecules do not interact with it. The DNA is in the cell waiting to be read as a recipe in a cookbook, to claim otherwise is a mistake and a very dangerous practice because, falls in the field of genetic manipulation and discrimination.
> 
> 
> It is difficult to summarize a complex subject as fascinating. Many of the ideas and arguments put to the discussion forum, have a kinship sopechosamente similar to the neoconservative and neoliberal ideas of American thought. Poverty as a genetic explanation and lower intelectualmennte poor out of their condition! The rich, the owner and emprendeor of success would be genetically predetermined by law to succeed and that biological order is established in the genes, which could defendense as a matter to divine or sacred!
> 
> Poor poor things, condemned by divine law, by statute biological, genetic and by law the law of man!


Intelligence is not only determined by genes, but also by the quality of gestation, the childhood diet and environment, and of course continuous education (parts of the brain that are not being used atrophy over time).

Then I don't think that neoconservative Christians believe in genetics and evolution.

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## iapetoc

> These are two faces of the same coin. Corruption cannot exist without a mutual agreement between the corrupter and the corrupted. If someone has strong principles against corruption, he/she will not try to corrupt and will not accept proposals of corruption.
> 
> 
> 
> Most traits of characters are hereditary, therefore genetic. This is why different breeds of dogs have clearly different characters (some more aggressive, some more sociable, some more protective, some more playful, some better at herding, some better at helping people...). Even religiosity and sexual faithfulness are deeply rooted in our genes. I doubt that corruptibility isn't. However it is almost certain that the Y-chromosome has no effect on it. The genes is almost certainly autosomal, but could have been spread by people carrying one or several specific haplogroups. In fact, genes are always spread by people from one region to other regions. People from a specific region will carry haplogroups specific to that region. Consequently there can be a correlation between the spread of autosomal genes and one or a few Y-DNA haplogroups. 
> 
> For example, Hemochromatosis and Huntington disease originated in the Scandinavian population. The Vikings spread them to the regions they conquered. Because the Vikings carried (among others) I1 lineages, it can be said that there is a link between the diffusion of I1 by the Vikings and these two diseases. It doesn't mean that an Irish or North French person who belongs to I1 will have these diseases of course. But the incidence of both diseases will probably correlate to the percentage of I1 in a region, because they "travel" in the local gene pool.
> 
> I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.
> ...





> It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).
> 
> As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.



maciamo 

thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.

HBO 
MTHFR etc 

not with E-V13,


i said in a previous post about chemicals and hormons that can be a link, a more sentimental degree or a more brain activity.
I believe also 
2 man, 1 is very excited with orgasm the other is not
who is more possible to run to common women or turn to gay?

I have correct MTHFR DNA yet I have an unspecified Homocystein pathesis that reaches 30 at random times, (like 1000-2000 cholisterine)
I have no problem with protein C etc not even with vitamin B
is my Y-DNA or my Mt-DNA responsible??
yet I served as marine my military obligations and was 8 rank in Greek rowing races 8 person boat and 4 persons boat?
i had 2 times haimoptysis (spit blood) in my life and 1 time my spline was 26 cm and 1 time my pneumons were full of blood thromvosis,
I take cheap cumarins from 14 years old , 
is it my Y-Dna??

Yes thalassaimia and other anaimias could be a fracture of laziness but also not.

my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day, 
so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.

I agree that DNA can be connected with many but not every DNA,
a small change in DNA can give different quantities of Hormons or enzyma etc that can affect 1 person work or brain or sentiments

BUT is it Y-DNA?

on the other hand 

lets the today biggest athlets in every sport
TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM 
TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
even Kenteris could be E carrier

WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?



I don't know if he is E YDNA
I don't know if he is corrupted
But I know he was unique.


far south east asia, phillipines indonesia etc
I wonder who is more corrupted,
the young under age whore? her father?
or the oldman rich western or Arab sultan, pedofilos

you are correct and clear,
anaimias and many other cases can be a fracture of laziness or what ever.

But I ask you 1 question,
fat people are lazy? fat people are healthy?
why we don't connect western culture with pachysarky, fatness 
why we don't connret r1b r1a etc with fatness?
the biggest ratio of fat people are in USA and in EU,
in fact child fatness is almost a social problem.
DIABETES is killing harvesting EU and USA yet we allow stupid food with killed vitamins and we eat and produce and advertise food full of preservatives wich kill langerhans island cells,
how much EU spends in insuline due to a half destroyed organ cause of fat and wrong food?

IN EUROPE WE HAVE LAZINESS AND DISABLED PEOPLE DUE TO DIABETES
WHICH REACH >30% of population.
_The increase in incidence of diabetes in developing countries follows the trend of urbanization and lifestyle changes, perhaps most importantly a "Western-style" diet. This has suggested an environmental (i.e., dietary) effect, but there is little understanding of the mechanism(s) at present, though there is much speculation, some of it most compellingly presented.[2]_



I believe is not the Y-DNA but another dna gene and enviroment.

PS 
I don't know about the western Europe wars, 
but I knw about yenicars and eastern wars, and believe there not a few, 

in ww1 the most killing batle was in balkans battle of lachana
48 000 dead in 6 hours,
in one 1 day 1900 AD soldiers fight like Napoleon's wars,
face to face with the spears in their guns,
maybe belgium change 9 rulers but constantinupolis defend from how many???
Thessaloniki change 5 times hands in 150 years
ok maybe wars is not the base of corruption, i can half accept your approach, need total estimation to full accept it.
but at least at greece we have 4 big wars and 1 civil and 1 dictatorship,
ww2 ended at 1949 in greece, 5 years after Europe.
rest of balkans had also the same wars but instead of a dictatorship they had communist era.
west europe did not pass the communistic era.

corruption has to do with punishment, 
in greece due to humanization and me modern europe, we pass the crimes of corruption,
in greece we kill the innocent protester and we allow the corupted to earn,
but I don't believe it has to do with the 25% E YDNA,
in fact I wonder what characteristic that gives? with which hormon or enzyma etc is connected?

PS 2
In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games, 
Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.


PS 3 
I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
*with which face of corruption he connects it?* 

1 pedophilia
2 adultery
3 homosexuality
4 overpass law
5 criminality
6 unfair judge
7 robberies
8 create law that support some
9 different laws for different class
10 get illegal things with money
11 selling drugs
12 different work of public care?
13 love for money?

what he means corruption and with what he connects it?

ps4

about weather I agree that is not a reason,
but how about programing of day,
my grand parent at summer wake up at 4-5 o clock, went to work before sun raise and 12 middle of day he fall to sleep, and worked after 3-4 o cloack at evening
today with same laws in North and South, 
we have to work at 13-14 o clock wich many times reach above 40 C 
and in north in winter we spend electricity 
my grand parents in summer sleep midday and work early morning and evening, 
today we use airconditions etc to work at 40 C 
how much productivity can have someone at 40C 
and this to have almost same market laws in EU or global laws.

in North they forbid concrete when temperature when temperature is low,
in south concrete is most forbiden in summer cause of high temperatures,
once I was so unlucky that I had to wait 4 days for put concrete in a structure.

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## spongetaro

> WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
> AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?



Sometimes I wonder why Indians are so bad at sports. Is it cultural or due to Haplogroup H and L ?

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## Mzungu mchagga

> I am also convinced that other traits influencing the economy, such as diligence or laziness are genetic too. It seems that the populations descending ultimately from the ancient Chinese (Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese + some Thai) and from the ancient Germans are particularly hard-working and meticulous. The is strong genetic disposition might even have originated in Siberia or Central Asia.
> 
> As for laziness, it has been proven that a few genetic conditions that help prevent malaria, like Sickle-cell disease in Africa and Thalassemia in the Mediterranean region, do cause anaemia and therefore lethargy and a natural predisposition to "laziness". Now that I think about it, seeing the distribution map for Sickle cell disease, it might truly be that haplogroup E does correlate with laziness via the spread of Sickle cell anaemia. Have a look at the map, it is startling how it matches the distribution of haplogroup E in the Balkans, South Italy and Anatolia.


Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria. 
But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries. I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.

If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?

I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?

I know you are a person of facts and statistics, so why don't you stick to them? Of course you can give your reasons, opinions and own conclusions here (which, sorry, very often are associated with stereotypes), but PLEASE, don't present them as facts!

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## how yes no 2

> First of all, I did not want to depict the Byzantine and Ottoman Empire as interchangeable. The problem of forums is that people easily lose track of how and why arguments were put forward. Let's rewind a bit.
> 
> A) In the OP, Jacker22 proposed the hypothesis that the percentage of haplogroup E in a population correlated with corruption, unemployment and lower GDP per capita.
> 
> B) How yes no refuted this correlation, stating that : "_best off are countries that did not have wars in recent history, worst are countries that were destroyed economically due to the wars in recent history_."
> 
> C) To which I replied that the Balkans actually *suffered less wars* in the last 1500 years *than Western Europe* (I gave the example of France being at war pretty much constantly with its neighbours, and internecine wars within Germany and within Italy). While wars of conquest were being waged in most of Europe, borders redrawn constantly from the Middle Ages until WWII, *most of the Balkans (except Romania) were a region of relative stability* in comparison because they only changed ruler and system once in roughly 1000 years (or twice in 1500 years if we count the Bulgarian Empire). During the same period the region that is now Belgium changed hands 9 times before becoming an independent country in 1830, and that is without counting the numerous wars fought by other countries on its territory (including Louis XIV and Louis XV against the Spaniards, English and Dutch, and Napoleon against all Europe, and the Germans invading neutral Belgium to invade France in WWI and WWII). *The Balkans (Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia) only changed hands three times* between the Roman conquest 2000 years ago and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire. They were Roman/Byzantine, then Bulgarian Turk, then Ottoman Turk. Very few wars were fought in the Balkans between the 11th and the late 19th century, apart from the Ottoman conquest itself. The main battles fought with neighbouring superpowers took place in WWI and WWII, except the war between Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians, which was staged mainly in Romania, Hungary and Austria (so around the Carpathians rather than the Balkans).
> 
> My point was therefore that *poverty in the Balkans couldn't be explained by a particular profusion of wars in its history compared to Western Europe*. My argument had nothing to do with the cultural or political differences between Byzantines and Ottomans. That was one transition, one empire being taken over in its entirety by another, even if they were very different people with a different languages and religions. Local languages survived throughout the Ottoman Empire anyway (there was no real will to obliterate them and force people to speak Turkish), and religion was free too (*no Inquisitio*n, just a tax on people who chose no to convert to Islam, but many people in the Balkans did convert). So even that wasn't a terrible problem.


Ottoman empire offered a kind of stability that one can have as kidnaped and tortured in a basement... while you can call situation like that stable, you can't claim it was great environment for development and economic growth.....

my intention with war argument was about long period of peace in own country...clearly, Ottoman empire was not such environment for Balkan people...


in fact, being a country subjugated by Ottomans practically meant constant state of war for ordinary people... 

there were countless small rebelions and many people lived in woods as guerrila fighers - "hajduci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk and had constant clashes with Turks

there were areas e.g. Montenegro that were never subjugated by Turks... there was constant battle on its borders...in those times people of Montenegro considered themselves elite Serbs because they refused to be subjugated despite everything... there is one thing about Serbs - enduring and never surrendering...


if you want to oversimplify history and look at it on greater scale, than border between Austo-Hungary's military border and Ottoman empire was in constant war and often changing.... 

on both sides in those constant wars, core of warriors were Balkan people - islamised on one side (those kidnapped by turkish army from parents as small kids, brought to Turkey, and brain-washed into being elite Turk soldiers, and ancestors of muslim people of Balkan who changed religion to enjoy more comfortable life) and christians on other side ...


military border of Austro-Hungary was populated mostly with Serbs, but also with Croats (those previous inhaabitants of the area that didnot runaway, and some dominantly Croat settled areas e.g. west part of Lika - places such as Klis and Senj famous for guerila fighers "uskoci" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uskoci) and and to much much less extent with Romanians and Hungarians (mostly in Transylvania) and Germans..



all those people were settled there to be soldiers, and lived in constant state of war... Croatia Serbs, west Bosnia Serbs and part of Vojvodina Serbs origin from military frontier people.......they were settled there to be warriors and defenders of Austro-Hungary and Europe... military frontier existed as separate entity in Austro-Hungary, and it only was in ear 1881 when danger of Turkey was gone, when the military frontier was included mostly in entity named Croatia-Slavonia and part of it directly in the kingdom of Hungary...

in fact, without that military frontier perhaps your ancestors would end-up impaled as well... take a look again at the picture below as it could have been your ancestor enjoying stability of Ottoman empire...



in fact, you should learn to respect sacrifices of Balkan people that were playing a role of wall against Turks and in that way have enabled real stability in the rest of the Europe and thus created preconditions for cultural development and economic prosperity to your ancestors... so please stop trying to put Balkan people in the role of lower worth, because I do not think most of western Europe (especially Belgians and French) would ever be able to sustain what Balkan people did...

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## Elias2

Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.

Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!

Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.

To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change. 

Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.

----------


## Carlitos

The use and fate of science and progress stands today, with few exceptions, outside the circuits of ethics. Neoliberalism is a system that could not exist without appropriating everything that justice should be the heritage of humanity, also permanently appropriates science to its spurious, aberrant and disgusting purposes. Science is today without this can or should blame the scientists, a good privatized the service of a small ruling elite based on their display of power and criminal hoarding of wealth. Therefore, the enormous benefits that could and should provide genetic research on prevention and eradication of diseases and give ourselves a better quality of life may be fictitious, false and counterproductive for all human beings.

----------


## archaiocapilos

> It is a common misconception that haplogroup E is low in Germany or in places so much north as Belarus. I have complied Y-DNA data from all the studies I could find for all European countries, and I can assert that West Germany has about 8% of haplogroup E, while Belarus approximates 9%. This isn't strange for West Germany since haplogroup E reaches 11% in Wallonia and 7% in the eastern part of Flanders (province of Limburg) in adjoining Belgium, and 10% in Alsace. Incidentally, the unemployment rate in Wallonia is awful (15% was the average for the last 10 years) and corruption is a major problem (Walloons are often dubbed Italians of the North, partly because of this).
> 
> As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.


 The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance

----------


## zanipolo

The Ottoman system of taking christian boys in infancy and training them as janiissary ( elite troops) was the success of the Ottoman fighting machine..........the true Ottomans crumpled after the janissary system evaporated in the 18th century. They hated the slavs the most followed by the Roman catholics but seemed to tolerate the orthodox people ( greek) better

----------


## Maciamo

> The ''scientist'' Maciamo now claims that DNA equals ethnicity (I wonder do you even know what ethnicity means? Because if you did I'm sure you wouldn't have used THAT word... Ethnicity comes from the Greek word 'ethnicoteta' which derives from 'ethnos' which derives from 'ethos'...which could be translated in English as coustom habbit. It is clear enough I think that 'ethnicity' is related with common culture and coustoms not DNA, so stop spreading your anti-Greek propaganda (especially using Greek words that you don't even understand dear Belgian ''scientist''... After all most modren nations don't belong to a particullar haplogroup and the same haplogroups are present in quite distinct populations which makes your statement invalid even more than your linguistic ignorance


Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from _ethnikos_, itself derived from _ethnos_ "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to *common ancestry* (therefore DNA). 

I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.

----------


## Maciamo

> Poverty in the balkans isn't very hard to figure out. This might seem like more turk bashing but it isn't my main goal.
> 
> Ottoman empire was a "gunpowder" empire, meaning the only reason is lasted as long as it did and regions didn't break away sooner is because the centralized turk army had gunpowder and the different ethnic group did not. This let the turks keep the different peoples repressed for so long, these peoples being christians AND muslims (look at what turkey is still doing to the kurds). As soon as the different ethnic groups got to have their own guns, like arvinites and soon after greeks, Greece became a seperate country. Russia fought for Bulgaria who did not have guns and won, it became a seperate country and got hold of gunpowder weapons as well, same for serbia. Remember when the arabs rebeled against the turks during WW1, this was only because the british supplied them with guns for their resistance, they were still using camels and swords!
> 
> Ottoman empire was very "backwards" economically as well as intellectually. It was the "sick man of europe" for the longest time and did not develop industries like in western and eastern europe, so the people inherited land that was not developed. So each different balkan country had to start from scratch essentially.
> 
> To a more modern period. Before WW2, all balkan countries were practically at the same economic level. Greece, which is the "richest" at the moment (in terms of GDP per capita) was at the same level as the poorest right now, albania. The difference is the countries who turned to communism had to "restart" again in the late 1980's when it all fell apart. As a poster pointed out, Yugoslavia was a very well developed country prior to disintigration. And their recovery fromt eh transition to capitalism has been very slow while the rest of europe in the last 20 years grew significantly. Throw in the yugoslav wars in the 90's and its aftermath, the illigal partition of kosovo from serbia, and FYROM and albanian nationalistic geographical asperations, the balkans in the last 25 years has been a mess, and I think will continue to be a mess unless things change. 
> 
> Now I don't want to make it seem like its all historical, there may as well be some cultural aspects of corruption aswell. If people dismiss the idea that better paying jobs or succes is based off anything else besides merit there is trouble. To say that western europe is not corrupt is silly, the corruption is just "white collar" corruption that is harder to discover and even more hard to bring to light.


I totally agree with this. Thanks for your input.

----------


## Maciamo

> Sickle-cell disease and Thalassemia have the effect of lower oxygen transport by erythrocytes, which will be followed by reduced physical activity, or as you would say, 'laziness' (which is a rather jugding term, as it implies 'unwillingness'). I know it is not what you meant, but by the choice of your words, other readers will get the impression that laziness is an evoutionary advantage for prevention of malaria.


In my mind laziness does not involve unwillingness. There are days when I feel too tired to work, when I want to laze around. Laziness is not something one decides, nor is it a permanent condition. It just depends on the energy and motivation one has at a particular time. Extreme heat can make me lazy, but that doesn't mean I am always lazy. Genetic anaemia on the other hand is much more serious as it is a permanent condition and is incurable (although regular treatment can alleviate the symptoms). So I find it funny that you should criticise my use of the term "lazy" when for me it is much more benign than "suffering from sickle cell anaemia" (and neither have anything to do with personal choice). 




> But either way we will have to prove that both sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia with non-treatment are so highly distributed among certain populations that THESE diseases actually are the reason of lower performance and productivity of their countries.


If these diseases have no influence on poor economic performance, then the alternative possibilities might end up being more disturbing. I am almost certain that widespread anaemia has a negative impact on productivity. It surely isn't _the only_ reason, but it is an important factor.




> I am not that familiar with distribution of diseases within Europe, but I'm sure if I did some research I will also find some with a higher prevalence in Northern Europe, which in that case should imply a lower productivity there.


Sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia are extremely rare in northern Europe (under 1%, and perhaps under 0.1% of the population). The former is tested by 23andMe, by the way, so it's easy to make a quick survey among users to confirm. I have access to the data from about 30 people (mostly of northern European descent) through extended sharing, and none have the sickle-cell mutation.




> If I remember it well, didn't the Roman writer and politician Tacitus describe the Germans as lazy, with tendency towards gambling and alcoholism? At those times Northern Europe wasn't half as successful as the Mediterranean countries, despite of a much higher malaria distribution in southern places at that time! How do you explain that?


How much credit can you give to a haughty, condescending Roman politician when describing people he doesn't know well (and certainly hasn't lived among) that the mighty, civilised Romans like to belittle as "barbarians" ? It's not an objective point of view, and it isn't based on solid knowledge of the people discussed. It's merely a sort of self-flattering propaganda that the Romans loved to write. Frankly, the Romans accusing others of gambling and alcoholism, when they partied in Rome half of the year, indulging in orgies and gambling on charioteers and gladiators ? :rolleyes:





> I'm not surprised of your theory that Germans and East Asians share a certain gene that effects hard work and diligence, as you are the one who believes that Northern Europeans also inherited individualism from Neanderthals. Maybe you would also say that diligence is attached to the same gene?


Diligence has absolutely nothing to do with individualism ! I don't know how you can liken the two ? East Asians are among the most collectivist (anti-individualistic) people on Earth ! The most individualistic Europeans are not necessarily Germanic either. The Brits and Irish are possibly the most individualistic, and their ancestry is first "Celtic" (or ancient Briton) then Germanic. German, Dutch and Scandinavian people are somewhat collectivist in their sense of egalitarianism and value of the common welfare (they are similar to the Japanese in this regard). The French and the Italians (especially northern Italians) can be quite individualistic. In business for instance, collectivist countries will favour big corporations (like the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, but also the Germans), while very individualistic societies have a profusion of self-employed people and small companies (like Italy). According to the cultural psychologist Geert Hofstede, the most individualistic Europeans  are the British, followed by the Dutch and Hungarians, then the Italians and the Belgians.

----------


## Maciamo

> maciamo 
> 
> thalassaimia and drepanocyttarosis and homocystein and many other are connected with different DNA genes and you know it.
> 
> HBO 
> MTHFR etc 
> 
> not with E-V13,


The map I posted clearly showed that the distribution of sickle cell disease and thalassemia matched pretty well the distribution of haplogroup E. Furthermore, sickle cell disease originated in Africa and so did haplogroup E. Malaria isn't a new disease and the sickle cell mutation may date back to tens of thousands of years. It's even possible that all human populations carried it before leaving Africa, and that individuals lacking it were positively selected once they reached parts of the world unaffected by malaria, because it conferred an advantage (lack of anaemia). It is a very reasonable assumption that sickle cell anaemia was re-introduced into the Middle East and south-east Europe by the migration of E1b1b at the end of the last Ice Age, and it remained there because malaria reappeared with the warming up of the climate 10,000 years ago.




> my second cousin who has thalassaimia takes 5mg of folic acid every day, (about 5 cent a day)
> and I inform she works twice than her kids and her husband, why, she needs only 30 min of rest and fast sleep every 4-6 hours,
> and then is fresh again, but by that she learn to sleep only 3-4-5 hours the day, 
> so with may not the streangth to work continuesly 10 hours, but she sleeps less than others.
> she sleeps 4-5 times per day but the max is 1-2 hours.


Not all people affected by thalassemia get treatment. In fact, many people don't even know they have it. People who come from regions were sickle-cell disease or thalassemia is common should get tested and, if positive, treated to improve their living conditions. 





> TAKE A LOOK IN NBA BASKET BALL MAJORITY IS E Y-DNA
> TAKE A LOOK AT FRANCE NATIONAL TEAM 
> TAKE A LOOK AT BRAZIL'S FOOTBALL TEAM
> TAKE A LOOK AT ATHLETICS ALL RUNNERS ARE E DNA
> even Kenteris could be E carrier


Yes, ok. What's your point ? I know that. Some Africans are much better at some sports than Europeans or Asians. But Europeans also excel in some sports (e.g. tennis, swimming, motor sports) more than Africans and Asians, and East Asians excel at yet other sports (gymnastics, synchronised swimming, martial arts).



> WHY WE CONNECT E Y-DNA WITH CORRUPTION
> AND NOT WITH GREAT ATHLETIC PERMOMANCES????????????????? why?


But we do. We just did, you and me. I think that you don't understand the difference between a correlation between a haplogroup and a population and the direct effect of a haplogroup on a person. The Y-chromosome has no effect on sickle-cell anaemia or other medical conditions. 




> In your theory about Y-DNA and IE you gave the exact word for Greece melting pot,
> yet my fathers from ancient times connect it in Thessaly via Olympic games, 
> Greek is a family of smaller tribes,
> why we accept Slavic the I2a of south balkans and the R1a of north?
> we accept Slavic Family of nations not a nation but a family
> same is Greece is a family of tribes we accept Greek nation but not family of nations.


Ethnicities and nations are completely different things. The concept of nation is a *feeling* shared by citizens of a same country regardless of ethnicity. The USA is a good example of a multi-ethnic nation. But no ethnologist would think of a country like France as a mono-ethnic (even if you don't take recent immigrants into accounts). A Breton is clearly distinguishable genetically and culturally from a Provençal, and an Alsatian has little in common with a Basque. Big countries (by European standards) like France, Germany, Italy or Spain are patchworks of ethnic groups that were unified under a common government to form nation states. I was just pointing out that this was also true for Greece.





> PS 3 
> I ask the author to say clear what he means corruption?
> corruption has many faces in a social organiazed municipal,
> *with which face of corruption he connects it?*


I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :

1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.

2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes

3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest

The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...

----------


## iapetoc

> I think that in this case, corruption refers mainly to government corruption, which comes in three types :
> 
> 1) Political corruption, the abuse of public power, office, or resources by elected government officials for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes It can also refer to office holders maintaining themselves in office by purchasing votes by enacting laws which use taxpayer money.
> 
> 2) Bureaucratic corruption is the abuse of power, office, or resources by government employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes
> 
> 3) Police corruption, a specific form of bureaucratic misconduct designed to obtain financial benefits, other personal gain, and/or career advancement for a police officer or officers in exchange for not pursuing, or selectively pursuing, an investigation or arrest
> 
> The mafia is strongly associated with these three types of corruption. The most famous mafias in Europe are the South Italian and Albanian mafias, the two regions of Europe with the highest percentage of haplogroup E1b1b outside Greece. It might just be a coincidence, but that is a lot of coincidences...



ok i never deny about corruption in balkans and south east europe,

mafia is alternate word famillia, family, 
it is connected with ancient patriarchical system 

about the cases of corruption, 
so we spoke about an 'elite of society' being corrupted, which i believe is correct.
my believes are also the same, the case of a bucket of wheat from roman times is true,


but on the other hand in Greece we say a moto, οτι λαμπει δεν ειναι χρυσος, ανθρακες ο θησαυρος, what ever is shining is not gold, the treasure was coal
that means we show a light, a spark, is it gold? or it is coal? coals are shining also, especially at night


then we have to find the mechanism of how that gene is working,
so if it is E-Ydna then what hormone or what chemistry, or what human structure makes them bend to corruption.
a mind satisfaction? a kind of body orgasm with money? the colour of money?

I believe corruption has to do with brain activity, or with with soul satisfaction, if it is in genes, 
I believe we go back to the *'miserables'* and Janver theory who, at least at the show, had a map with shapes of head, and measure people's head and put them to classes, thieves, murderers, etc,
in old anthropology they try to find what makes a human criminal,
for example small ears or big nose or whatever,

I had read about an article about gymnastics, and E people from africa, western African have long muscle cells,
that gives short time strength. with a neural spark their muscles give fast act spending high energy, and have big perfomance,
but that last for short hour, 
that is why types like Carl Lewis can not run marathons or long time games, 
on the other hand Kenya and Ethiopeans have the shortest muscular cells,
that means they don't have strong muscular react, they spend small energy in a neural spark, so they can last working for hours,
they are bad at 100 m but good in 5000 10000 m,
why cause they save energy better than others,

As always enviroment plays its role, 

Nature take its choices by donating, or by exterminating long muscular cells people in Desert and savannah, 
ultil 1970 caravans walked days to cross desert, and goat breeders walk hours to find grass,
so short muscular survived better than long muscular cells,
that is a mechanism why north of sahara we also have Mt Dna different than south of Sahara,
but they both E Ydna, 
All the above is a nature choice of who survives, a mechanism who connects enviroment with genes, 

in case of corruption, which shine as treasure to some,
and for me is coal, but for some is gold,
what mechanism works?
and is that mechanism really connected with the Fraction work of cells having the E Y-DNA?

I believe corruption is after the social system, and a survival mechanism.
Patriarchical-semitribal societies have that symptoms, they are equal among them, but they are offensive against others,

also a brain activity that helped in past, but not today, 
in the christian bible we read about the metals of Jacob, and also about the daughter Deina and how they act.
they prefer to slain the offender instead to marry sister, 
why? cause they gain power as tribe like that,

same is with corruption in balkans,
what is happening,
people in order to gain something they desire, they have 2 choices,
1 is to kill the other and buy it,
2nd is to buy it legally or illegal 

when from roman times a vote= a bucket of wheat, today one who dreams to be president, must buy the votes of the weak,
20 50 500 E is good prize,
so in case that someone owns the bank money or a poor person to help him with family votes to save some money surely they will vote you,
Honour and price is same word, 
so politicians spend money according peoples demands and get votes, but then they make tricks and steal money from people's taxes etc, 
corruption follows the laws of the market,

example is the police corruption and cafes night clubs etc,

a policeman works 8 hours and 4 hours is in yellow light, meaning is semi suspended in day, that 4 hours he must be in station in 20 minutes to take over action if demanded.
that 4 hours they spend it in stores that can be robbed, and owners obliged for protecting them treat them or help them with their own way
but when that habit becomes a work, a gang, an organised famillia of protection, who is asking money to protect you,
from robbers, or even by him self then is crime, criminal corruption,

ok Greek police is corrupted and we all know that,
in fact in a late judges attack about 40 policeman were arrested cause they make protection as their job,

But is not the same with North Securities that protect blocks of houses etc?
not a simple small super market but whole blocks and big corporations,
simply in one case we have policeman that are corrupted, and in the other mafia security wars,

at least in kinimatograph in USA we see killing of drug dealers etc, dead people
in Balkans we see drug dealers to pay police to buy a piazza

both are crimes, simply the first we leave it as crime, and the second we record it as corruption and crime,

to end this, Hugo is clear about theories of criminality 
Janver's theory are little beat dangerous if not explained correct and how mechanism works,

if I watch how diabetes and fatness is growing in North western world, then surely i connect it with Haplogroups, 
but is it really connected with Haplogroups? or is the way of modern leaving and consuming societies,

----------


## Sprinkles

This is funny.

That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?

It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?

That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically? 

You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right? 

So explain to me why North and South Korea are genetically almost identical and economically on opposite sides of a spectrum.. LOL.


Guess what, morons? Your little fairy tale existence is coming to an end. The rest of the world is catching up to western europe which is immigrant infested and diseased. The quality of life will establish an equilibrium. The people living beyond the mean will fall (western europe), people living below the mean will rise (eastern europe, china, etc). It's the course of humanity.

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## Elias2

> This is funny.
> 
> That's why the Ashkenazi Jews(25% haplogroup E) are poor? Right?
> 
> It has nothing to do with these countries being communist and being oppressed for hundreds of years? Right?
> 
> That's why North Korea is so ******* rich? There's no difference between North and South Korea? Right? Genetically? 
> 
> You people are ******* retarded. That's why east and west Germany have always been equally prosperous? Right? 
> ...


Relax buddy, someone just came up with a hypothesis and we are discussing the merits of it, your language is very vulgar.

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## zanipolo

I never seen a nation which has 1 ethnicity. 
As for the greeks, they might be culturally the same , but ethnicitally they are different. Cretans are different to Ionian greeks, to pelopennisan greeks etc etc . There are even greeks called the mani in the peopennese who are very different .

Dialects ( actually no such thing , but a language) indicates changes of ethnicity in peoples , even greeks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mo...ialects_en.svg

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## iapetoc

yes of course,

frog 

cretan aforthakos
pontic forthaka
makedonian batrachos -is
thessalian batrachi 

it is not a local idiom but ethnicity  :Useless: 


Lets see the story behind like who was after Venice and who was Turkish,
and from which ancient language comes from,

and then lets speak about dialects,

for example 
Pontic and Cretan are from Ionia people, 
so they name the frog 
Aforthakos and forthaka
why the change?
cause was isolated for 1000 years and was under turkish rules,
and the other was under Venice,

lets see the Makedonian and thessalian Batrachos and Batrachi
why is the same cause they both followed same history from ancient Aeolic and bothe were under turkish
then why Makedonian is male and female and the other is neutral 
cause in thessaly we had strong roman -aromani presence, in aromani most animals goes to neutral

that is how dialects are created,
but lets keep to thread.

----------


## archaiocapilos

> Perhaps the Greek etymology of ethnicity related to culture and customs (actually it comes from _ethnikos_, itself derived from _ethnos_ "band of people living together, nation, people"), but in English (or French, Italian and Spanish for that matter), ethnicity refers first and foremost to *common ancestry* (therefore DNA). 
> 
> I have no idea what you call anti-Greek propaganda. I have nothing against Greek people, and never said and wrote anything negative about Greece or Greeks. You are obviously delusional. If that is anti-Greek to say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parts of Greece then I can't help you. Go see a shrink.


You didn't just say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parst of Greece you claimed that while Greeks think that they belong to the same ethnicity they actually descend from a multitude of ethnicities which I have prooven to be wrong.

----------


## zanipolo

> yes of course,
> 
> frog 
> 
> cretan aforthakos
> pontic forthaka
> makedonian batrachos -is
> thessalian batrachi 
> 
> ...


language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?

Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?

Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type

----------


## iapetoc

> language and dialects ( same thing) is the first sign of different ethnicity. What are you trying to say.?
> 
> Greeks will know you never had a government between Alexander the Great and 1824, that's over 2000 years where other states ruled/governed Greeks , which led to other ethnic peoples migrating into greek lands.......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word) or returned to the their homeland, these peoples being, macedonians, franks, tuscans, genoese, catalans, venetians, Genoese , ottomans........did I leave any out?
> 
> Greeks do not have 1 ethnic type......no one has 1 ethnic type



are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?

and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia, 
and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas 
Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
better read better the greek history,

*we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,*

and is only <400 years, 
Hello Trebizond was Greek 
in fact first general of Greek revolt was from there, and Greek revolt started in Romania, hello

I know what are talking about and where you go again the thread, 
just 1 word wake up we survided for 400 years and we are still here, 
while you (you know who) served who?
now next thing is to say me that greeks had dissapear and the today are all foreigners,

well you anti-greek feeling again expressed,
ALL WHO FOUGHT WITH US AT 1821 HAVE A HOMELAND,
ALL WHO FOUGHT AGAINST US GO TO HELL,

now about fyrom 
the answer is known, get .... zanipolo

catalans in Greece?

genouates in greece?
in fact Greeks moved to Genoua and fought for genovese,
franks? yes exist at 1871 they were about 40 000 and today about 60 000
with the word Franks Greeks mean every crusader come and every catholic that immigrate to Greece.

the only who became Greeks are 2 
1 Aromani 
2 arbanitas,
the rest went away,
Bulgaro-serbs moved to McDonaldia
turks went away
Franks had left 1 generation after the crusade 
and venicians?
I don't know how many came and why?
in fact Libro d' oro sais the oposite 
venicians if they want to go they go if want to stay they stay,
the Muslims of thrace have their own 2 languages turks and Greek-pomak (Greco-slavic)

all the populations you mention exept aromani are not more than 250 000 
in 1821 when slaughters were done, and people were impaled,
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT A FOREIGNER WOULD STAY HERE, OR NEUTRAL?
1821 was not the kossovo war. it was a primitive war, in Europe the knew about Napoleon tactics but here was slain them all, 
search the Suliotet case to understand.
end of story provoker, I am not going to put another thread in bucket cause an albanian believes bullshit,

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## Antigone

> .......these people became greekized ( if there is such a word)


The word you are looking for is Hellenised.

----------


## zanipolo

> are you nuts? who said about 1 type? even 2 brothers are not the same?
> 
> and remember Greeks had goverments at pergamos Seleykeia Alexandreia, 
> and after 1204 and the damn crusaders we also took the sceptres, like the 4 areas 
> Epirus Smyrna Mystra and Trapezous,
> better read better the greek history,
> 
> *we never had 1 goverment eve at alexanders time Lakedaimonians had another goverment and Magnas had their owns,*
> 
> ...



Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn *Nerio I Acciaioli* who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.

You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus. 

Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.

Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.

----------


## zanipolo

> The word you are looking for is Hellenised.


thank you , you are correct

----------


## iapetoc

> Who is anti greek is you. I just give the facts , you never heard of the catalan company which became the navaresse company ( from catalan areas) , you never heard of Pedro de San Superano who allied with the tusacn *Nerio I Acciaioli* who was ruler of the duchy of Athens!! who do you think threw the franks out of Greece.
> 
> You never heard of the Genoese, Pisan and Venetians wars for the Aegean islands ( duchy of Naxos ) plus cyprus. 
> 
> Are you Greek? , if so , what historical rubbish did they teach you in school.....maybe its better than the complete bullshit taught about italian history in Italian schools. I think you cannot be as bad as that.
> 
> Explain to me how 2 brothers can be ethnically different, only way I know is if they are born by different mothers, then they would be only half-brothers.




who the pirates?
the catalan company from sicily?
hahaha not one them survived I am sure, 

I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk 
the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains 
they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens 

the most unwanted dukes,

----------


## zanipolo

> who the pirates?
> the catalan company from sicily?
> hahaha not one them survived I am sure, 
> 
> I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk 
> the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains 
> they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens 
> 
> the most unwanted dukes,


LOL if you say that from 1205 - 1458 is insignificant that this period had catalan, gascon and tuscans as part of the duchy of Athens, then the period of 1824 to 2011 , which is 187 years must also be insignificant , do you agree,  :Grin:

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## Maciamo

> You didn't just say that haplogroup frequencies differ widely between parst of Greece you claimed that while Greeks think that they belong to the same ethnicity they actually descend from a multitude of ethnicities which I have prooven to be wrong.


Greeks do descend from a multitude of ethnicities : Paleolithic Balkanese (I2a), Minoans from Anatolia (J2), Caucasian (G2a) and Levantine (E1b1b, T, J1) Neolithic farmers, Proto-Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b), Celts (mostly R1b), Romans (mixed R1b, J2, J1, G2a, I2a), Bulgars (R1a), Slavs (R1a and I2a2), etc. Are you denying that too ?

----------


## zanipolo

> who the pirates?
> the catalan company from sicily?
> hahaha not one them survived I am sure, 
> 
> I am not from that places but I understand for who you talk 
> the ones who make greeks and arvanitas to take mountains 
> they last enough about 2 generations in duchy of athens 
> 
> the most unwanted dukes,



go to this link and go to bottom and click any coloured dot to get a history of people who influenced greek ethnity 

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html

----------


## iapetoc

> LOL if you say that from 1205 - 1458 is insignificant that this period had catalan, gascon and tuscans as part of the duchy of Athens, then the period of 1824 to 2011 , which is 187 years must also be insignificant , do you agree,


they came at *1303* in Con/polis, 

and they slain Turks Greeks bulgraians italians alans franks
the toughest mercenairies, no one could prevail them ,
they even raided monasteries at mount Athos, there are many stories about them in Athen and evoia people, 
1800 of them in 1 day slain 8500 alans their kids and their wifes,

they left at *1396*, they were rulers of athens from 1331 to 1396.





> go to this link and go to bottom and click any coloured dot to get a history of people who influenced greek ethnity 
> 
> http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html


I know simply all that era greeks name it Φραγκοκρατια Frank rulling ERA,

same time 4 Greek kingdoms , duches and kings that last 10-20-60 years, 
All day wars 
in Peloponese I heard about a castle that venice sold it to turks and then buy it back etc
they even try to dwell islands with no water, alliances like Greeks + turks vs Venice, 
Venice +turks against Genouates, venice +greeks vs turks, etc

except Ionic islands, they survived in few areas in aegean, became maritime and united with locals, 
island like Psarra and chios, and later syros
while the catholic community from Thessaloniki have no connection with Boniface, but from a monastry of Lazaristes, 

Enetokratia in some areas in peloponese crete and aegean islands has influence in modern greeks but not that much to assimilate locals, in fact they lived in the laws of locals,
in Corfu there is a story about a piazza where they forbid Greeks and islanders to enter, 
only those who became Catholics and then Venicians allowed to enter, 
many rich Greeks send their kids to venice and to learn language and trade and then back,
many other areas like Crimea Chios used Genoa and later Tergest. 
according area they had a small colony in another state, and they trade,
cretans had in Spain and venice, 
peloponese in Venice and Marselle 
Chios and smyrna and pontic Greeks had genoua
pontic also used romania to trade with Austria,
Makedonians trade with cretans and austrians via Serbia (monasterion-petz-seragevo or belgrade road)
Epirotes with marselle and Venice, 
that times were strange, a kind of monopoly trading and production, 
for example the chios mastiche (gum) was a monopoly of Con/polis church and Cenouates in west,
so they both protected locals,
do you know many titles were sold?
read about the boniface of montferrat,
they had titles with out the land!!!!!!!!!!
they sold titles to other who just wanted to have prestige,

a greek moto is after one cretan who change religion became ruler in crete and as first tax all cretans send him pumkins
κολοκυθια στον Πατερο

in 1821 the ones who manage to be connected and loved by locals like the syros island created naval force and fought against turks, the case of Venice Turks etc and later austrians help greeks to hide, and strike, 
for example a great revolt hero kolokotronis was hiding in ionic islands

the story for Catalan company in greek literature say that every morning, when other wash faces, they use black pork fat to wash faces, 
and that was correct cause they use a black pork fat for their armors.

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

> In my mind laziness does not involve unwillingness. There are days when I feel too tired to work, when I want to laze around. Laziness is not something one decides, nor is it a permanent condition. It just depends on the energy and motivation one has at a particular time. Extreme heat can make me lazy, but that doesn't mean I am always lazy. Genetic anaemia on the other hand is much more serious as it is a permanent condition and is incurable (although regular treatment can alleviate the symptoms). So I find it funny that you should criticise my use of the term "lazy" when for me it is much more benign than "suffering from sickle cell anaemia" (and neither have anything to do with personal choice).


I know it wasn't your intention to insult anyone and I got your interpretation of the word 'lazy'. But the problem is that most people place a different, more judging association on it. So I just wouldn't have used the word 'lazy'.





> If these diseases have no influence on poor economic performance, then the alternative possibilities might end up being more disturbing. I am almost certain that widespread anaemia has a negative impact on productivity. It surely isn't _the only_ reason, but it is an important factor.


I agree.





> Sickle-cell disease as well as thalassemia are extremely rare in northern Europe (under 1%, and perhaps under 0.1% of the population). The former is tested by 23andMe, by the way, so it's easy to make a quick survey among users to confirm. I have access to the data from about 30 people (mostly of northern European descent) through extended sharing, and none have the sickle-cell mutation.


I didn't want to reject these facts. But as iapetoc already figured out, we might find other diseases with a higher ratio in Northern European countries, like obesity, coronary diseases, diabetes, depressions etc... which in turns should balance the lower activity in Southern Europe caused by sickle-cell disease or thalassemia.





> How much credit can you give to a haughty, condescending Roman politician when describing people he doesn't know well (and certainly hasn't lived among) that the mighty, civilised Romans like to belittle as "barbarians" ? It's not an objective point of view, and it isn't based on solid knowledge of the people discussed. It's merely a sort of self-flattering propaganda that the Romans loved to write. Frankly, the Romans accusing others of gambling and alcoholism, when they partied in Rome half of the year, indulging in orgies and gambling on charioteers and gladiators ? :rolleyes:


Hey come on... You quoted a Greek writer about the outstanding looks of Alexander the Great, who lived 400 years earlier than him, and you would consider that as objective, credible and unbiased? Tacitus at least lived at the same time of the people he described, and he wasn't all negative about Germans, he also described them as loyal and brave, skilled manual workers and warriors.





> Diligence has absolutely nothing to do with individualism ! I don't know how you can liken the two ? East Asians are among the most collectivist (anti-individualistic) people on Earth ! The most individualistic Europeans are not necessarily Germanic either. The Brits and Irish are possibly the most individualistic, and their ancestry is first "Celtic" (or ancient Briton) then Germanic. German, Dutch and Scandinavian people are somewhat collectivist in their sense of egalitarianism and value of the common welfare (they are similar to the Japanese in this regard). The French and the Italians (especially northern Italians) can be quite individualistic. In business for instance, collectivist countries will favour big corporations (like the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese, but also the Germans), while very individualistic societies have a profusion of self-employed people and small companies (like Italy). According to the cultural psychologist Geert Hofstede, the most individualistic Europeans  are the British, followed by the Dutch and Hungarians, then the Italians and the Belgians.


Linking diligence to individualism actually was just sort of an affective question, not meant that seriously, sorry! 
It is just that we don't know that much about the combination of genetic heritage and environmental/cultural influences yet which impact character traits of people. My point is that I don't want to deny either or, but as long as we don't have proven scientific facts yet (which I'm sure will not come that far away from now), I sometimes get a little over-reactive when someone sells them as proven facts. But this applies to practically anything which is allegedly scientific. Everyone should be allowed to give his or her assumptions, but shouldn't sell them as facts!

----------


## Maciamo

> I didn't want to reject these facts. But as iapetoc already figured out, we might find other diseases with a higher ratio in Northern European countries, like obesity, coronary diseases, diabetes, depressions etc... which in turns should balance the lower activity in Southern Europe caused by sickle-cell disease or thalassemia.


I am sure that plenty of (rare) diseases originated among northern Europeans, but I cannot think of one disease that substantially affects the economic output and that is much more prevalent in northern Europe. Coronary diseases affects primarily older people. Diabetes is actually less prevalent in northern Europe than in the rest of Europe and reaches a worldwide maximum in the Middle East. Seasonal affective disorder ("winter blues") could be one, but it is environmental (low sunlight in winter) rather than genetic, and is largely compensated by the other types of depressions which can have all sorts of causes (loss of a relative or close friend, being heartbroken, bad luck in life, losing one's job, or just a genetic disposition towards negativity). The rates of overall depressive disorders are unevenly distributed across Europe according to this map. Surprisingly, France, which is usually associated with superior quality of life, has one of the highest depression and suicide rate in Europe.




> Hey come on... You quoted a Greek writer about the outstanding looks of Alexander the Great, who lived 400 years earlier than him, and you would consider that as objective, credible and unbiased? Tacitus at least lived at the same time of the people he described, and he wasn't all negative about Germans, he also described them as loyal and brave, skilled manual workers and warriors.


I just wrote that if one had to choose to believe one or the other, the Greek historians were probably more knowledgeable about Alexander's life than some Italian artist. 




> My point is that I don't want to deny either or, but as long as we don't have proven scientific facts yet (which I'm sure will not come that far away from now), I sometimes get a little over-reactive when someone sells them as proven facts. But this applies to practically anything which is allegedly scientific. Everyone should be allowed to give his or her assumptions, but shouldn't sell them as facts!


The problem is that _you perceive_ what I write as facts rather than assumptions. Personally I do not draw a clear line between the two, because I know very well that so-called scientific studies presented as proven facts can and will most of the time be contradicted by other scientific studies. This is especially true when it comes to medicine, simply because of the tremendous complexity of the human body and the immense amount of factors involved (among which the millions of genetic variations between individuals). As for history it is even more blurry than science because of the subjectivity and varying point of views of different sides telling the same events.

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## M.G.

Regarding the question of regions and economic performance, I've created a map of some Western European countries' regions reflecting their recent GDP per capita numbers (2006, pre-crisis).

I used Eurostat's numbers, which they adjust for purchasing power parity.

I purposefully left off national political borders in this one:




Here's a version with national political borders:




I hadn't seen a map before with regional economic gradations this fine (the scale I made is shown on the right). I too, like *Maciamo*, am interested in how genetically-influenced character traits can affect things like economic performance, and I hope this map can be of interest / use to some here.

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## Carlitos

A few maps of 2006: and the rest of years, of the rest of centuries, of the rest of centenaries, of the rest of milleniums?, a few decades of fair weather and some they believe already God. If a piece is not of a certain puzle it will not fit.

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## Reinaert

Haha.. This map shows how figures can be misinterpreted very well.
Look at the north of the Netherlands. The region of Groningen is very dark, so the GDP per capita seems to be very high.
In reality that is a region with a relative high unemployment rate!

What kills the logic of this map is the fact that natural gas and oil is drilled in that area. 
The NAM is very profitable over there, but the people don't get much from it!
In the same way Scotland gets a high rate, because of the oil industry.

Another example is Luxembourg, of course because of the banks, but they don't have much production over there.

At least the map doesn't tell anything about the people that live there.

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## Maciamo

> A few maps of 2006: and the rest of years, of the rest of centuries, of the rest of centenaries, of the rest of milleniums?, a few decades of fair weather and some they believe already God. If a piece is not of a certain puzle it will not fit.


You can check the data of the historical GDP (PPP) per capita by country. Things do change over time obviously, but so do people and genes, and even climate. Yet some things do not change much. The Low Countries and Britain were already among the richest European countries in the 1500's, while Portugal and Eastern Europe were always at the bottom of the European league. The biggest changes are Italy and Spain. Italy was richer than the rest of Europe since Roman times, but the industrial revolution allowed countries like Britain, Belgium, France and Germany to get wealthier. Spain got immensely rich from its American colonies, then its GDP decreased steadily as the flow of resources from the colonies slowed down.

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## Reinaert

> You can check the data of the historical GDP (PPP) per capita by country. Things do change over time obviously, but so do people and genes, and even climate. Yet some things do not change much. The Low Countries and Britain were already among the richest European countries in the 1500's, while Portugal and Eastern Europe were always at the bottom of the European league. The biggest changes are Italy and Spain. Italy was richer than the rest of Europe since Roman times, but the industrial revolution allowed countries like Britain, Belgium, France and Germany to get wealthier. Spain got immensely rich from its American colonies, then its GDP decreased steadily as the flow of resources from the colonies slowed down.


It isn't true Maciamo!
The Low Countries weren't rich! 
Some pirate families were rich!

Most of the people (90%) were farmers.
They were abused by the trade of the cities.

The power of the selfish cities killed the economic progress in the Duchy of Brabant.
Protestant individuals against a common Catholic communalism.

Read Rerum Novarum to understand why it went wrong!

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## Carlitos

Some persons of these countries were rich, at present it is when it is possible to say that there have been reached quotas of well-being generalized for the populations at least in Occident that is what I know, but: have they put us a rocket in the bottom?, up to the date the crisises were solved by a war, overpopulation, consumerism, it is a world model with many lacks, there is nothing any more that to see the valuation of suicides that has France, and nevertheless the peoples of the poor countries kill themselves to come to Europe, while other citizens of Europe dream of returning to the nature or taking a type of life less stressed.

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## spongetaro

> It isn't true Maciamo!
> The Low Countries weren't rich! 
> Some pirate families were rich!
> 
> Most of the people (90%) were farmers.
> They were abused by the trade of the cities.


But people living in the cities weren't?
I read somewhere that the average GDP per capita of Amsterdam was 30 times that of Paris in the XVIIth century

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## iapetoc

> Haha.. This map shows how figures can be misinterpreted very well.
> Look at the north of the Netherlands. The region of Groningen is very dark, so the GDP per capita seems to be very high.
> In reality that is a region with a relative high unemployment rate!
> 
> What kills the logic of this map is the fact that natural gas and oil is drilled in that area. 
> The NAM is very profitable over there, but the people don't get much from it!
> In the same way Scotland gets a high rate, because of the oil industry.
> 
> Another example is Luxembourg, of course because of the banks, but they don't have much production over there.
> ...



correct, I look at your notice and I find simmilar points also,

Crete is one most Turist industries as also orange and olives, but seems all their rich go to Athens who only produce what? politician, the last factory from athens is 90 KM away,

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## LeBrok

Beautiful maps MG, great job. Never mind the confused ones on this forum, they are always like this, lol.

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## Carlitos

In the map the Canary Isles are absent.

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## Reinaert

> But people living in the cities weren't?
> I read somewhere that the average GDP per capita of Amsterdam was 30 times that of Paris in the XVIIth century


Well, that were the pirate families I mentioned. Ruthless protestants who traded slaves, and grew rich from colonialism.
AKA kill whatever and whoever came across their path. 

In the end the VOC and VWC became a total failure.
It did cost more than it earned, because some families took all the loot out of it.
Including the Royal Family.
The Netherlands suffered the worst economical disaster when William became King of England.
William and Mary.. King Billy, the Orange Twit.

Gibraltar was taken in 1704 by Dutch and British troops. 
The Dutch went further fighting on the war of Spanish Succession, the British took a break in Gibraltar.
And they still wave their bloody Union Jack over there.
They don't even have the decency to also fly a Dutch flag!

Limeys!


The Dutch Republic lost a lot of assets because of this robbing of the state funds.

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## Maciamo

> It isn't true Maciamo!
> The Low Countries weren't rich! 
> Some pirate families were rich!
> 
> Most of the people (90%) were farmers.
> They were abused by the trade of the cities.
> 
> The power of the selfish cities killed the economic progress in the Duchy of Brabant.
> Protestant individuals against a common Catholic communalism.
> ...


No they weren't rich. Nobody was rich by today's standards 500 years ago. Peasants made the bulk of the population in every country. But if one cared to rank the average wealth per inhabitant, some regions were undeniably better off than others, and people in North-West Europe overall enjoyed more material wealth than people in Russia or India or Mexico at the same period. 

Anyhow, GDP per capita is always an average. One thing that did evolve everywhere in the developed world in the 20th century was the distribution of wealth. The gap between the rich and the poor shrank considerably, even though there is still a lot of room for improvement, especially in less socially minded countries like the USA.

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## archaiocapilos

> Greeks do descend from a multitude of ethnicities : Paleolithic Balkanese (I2a), Minoans from Anatolia (J2), Caucasian (G2a) and Levantine (E1b1b, T, J1) Neolithic farmers, Proto-Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b), Celts (mostly R1b), Romans (mixed R1b, J2, J1, G2a, I2a), Bulgars (R1a), Slavs (R1a and I2a2), etc. Are you denying that too ?


Haplogroups don't equal ethnicity especially when you are talking about Neolithic farmers (E1b1b, T, J1) or Paleolithic Balkanese (I2a). Even the Indo-Europeans were not pure according to your own claim (R1b1b2, R1a1a and G2a3b1) All this haplogroups mixxed in Greece to create the Greeks (one ethnos) some time during pre-history, there never was Hindu-style segregation here (at least untill we have proof about it)... The ancient Greek nobles claimed descend from a multitude of tribes-regions most of them in Anatolia-Crete (Atridae, Minoans), Levant (Thebes) or Greece it self (Pelasgians, Hellenes, Aeolians, Dorians) so the nobles of Macedonia could be R1a1, I or E-V13 while the nobles of Crete could be J2a or R1b1b2 and the nobles of Peloponnese could be E-V13 or J2a. That's all I'm saying Maciamo...

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## archaiocapilos

The regions were E1b1b is centered were far more advanced in antiquity and Middle Ages from North Europe. So no connection with corruption or lazyness at all.

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## Mzungu mchagga

> The regions were E1b1b is centered were far more advanced in antiquity and Middle Ages from North Europe. So no connection with corruption or lazyness at all.


Exactly! I once gave an explanation to the shift of different stages of developement in this post:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post368588

I referred to the alleged character of races, but it can also be transfered to the distribution of haplogroups.
How would someone explain the high GDP of regions around the Alps? There are two possibilities: 
The first one is that after WWII, and especially from the 1960's on, the producing industrial sector [which was high in BeNeLux, Northern France, England, North West Germany] lost importance to the service company sector. Former agricultural regions, with stabile non-communist governments [like around the Alps] took this advantage and created a new infrastructure for that sector. These fruits are reaped now, while other places of Europe still face the problem of an over-aged infrastructure and also partly social structures.
The second explanation is haplogroups.  :Rolleyes:

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## Maciamo

> Haplogroups don't equal ethnicity especially when you are talking about Neolithic farmers (E1b1b, T, J1) or Paleolithic Balkanese (I2a). Even the Indo-Europeans were not pure according to your own claim (R1b1b2, R1a1a and G2a3b1) All this haplogroups mixxed in Greece to create the Greeks (one ethnos) some time during pre-history, there never was Hindu-style segregation here (at least untill we have proof about it)... The ancient Greek nobles claimed descend from a multitude of tribes-regions most of them in Anatolia-Crete (Atridae, Minoans), Levant (Thebes) or Greece it self (Pelasgians, Hellenes, Aeolians, Dorians) so the nobles of Macedonia could be R1a1, I or E-V13 while the nobles of Crete could be J2a or R1b1b2 and the nobles of Peloponnese could be E-V13 or J2a. That's all I'm saying Maciamo...


Why do you equal purity with ethnicity ? People in a society intermingle with each others, and after some time the gene pool is sufficiently blended for a new ethnicity to emerge. The smaller the starting population the faster the blend takes place. Considering the low population density in the Neolithic, mergers of multiple ethnicities (like the original J1, E1b1b and T) into a single new ethnic group happened relatively quickly. The problem with Greece is that it is so divided geographically that populations have not been able to blend as well as, say the Netherlands, over the same period of time. I have travelled to many parts of Greece and observed that people look considerably different depending on the region. I was startled by the physical appearance of some Cretans, that looked almost Arabic with their long narrow faces, long aquiline noses, tanned skin and curly black hair (the archetype of haplogroup J). In other regions people had very round faces and short noses, more like North Africans (the heritage of haplogroup E1b1b, I suppose). Others still had fair hair and eyes and could have passed for French, Belgian or German. A country like France probably has an even greater diversity of physical appearances between regions. That is because the gene pool hasn't had time to uniformise the looks into a single ethnicity.

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## Maciamo

> The regions were E1b1b is centered were far more advanced in antiquity and Middle Ages from North Europe. So no connection with corruption or lazyness at all.


Except that the Greco-Roman Antiquity was a slave-based society where most of the wealth was produced by slaves. You just cannot compare it to modern society. Furthermore, the haplogroup frequencies 2000 years ago and now might well have been quite different with all the migrations that took place, all the wars, and so on.

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## Carlitos

It is clear that the History exiles any attempt of mystify one o more haplogroups to the detriment of others. In the antiquity the effort in already generating wealth and prosperity out in the field or in the cities it should have been superhuman, socially the slavery existed, but the beginning of prosperity of the European countries also they were epochs of semi-slavery and equally they were hard as it has always been for the most disadvantaged classes as it can turn in the picture of The Potato Eaters: what was the haplogroup of The Potato Eaters?, it has been difficult to come very much so far, and and this way our future is still in hands of few ones, it is always the same history, be countries where it prevails E or where it does it R.

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## M.G.

> Beautiful maps MG, great job.


Thanks for the kind words, LeBrok. A much more clear version (where the color scale gradations are truly visible) is available by download here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/59594795/G...-2006-Eurozone




> What kills the logic of this map is the fact that natural gas and oil is drilled in that area.


This map has no logic, other than that which the viewer assigns to it. It simply presents GDP per capita figures visually; nothing less, nothing more.

The wise viewer will seek out just the kind of thing you mention--no one factor can explain something so complex as wealth creation. What is at play in this region or that? Good or poor soil, long or short growing season? How much arable land? What is under the ground--oil, minerals, precious metals? Are there navigable rivers, are we on a sea coast, are we land-locked? All these matter mightily.

But so do we. What kind of politicians do we elect? What kind of tax law, labor law, do we decide upon? Do we choose to pay our taxes? What do our businessmen decide to invest in? And do they invest at home or abroad? And why? These things reflect on us and our character traits, and yes, this element can in part be traced to our genes.

It's an interesting puzzle to tease out, and endlessly complex.

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## iapetoc

> Thanks for the kind words, LeBrok. A much more clear version (where the color scale gradations are truly visible) is available by download here:
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/59594795/G...-2006-Eurozone
> 
> This map has no logic, other than that which the viewer assigns to it. It simply presents GDP per capita figures visually; nothing less, nothing more.
> 
> The wise viewer will seek out just the kind of thing you mention--no one factor can explain something so complex as wealth creation. What is at play in this region or that? Good or poor soil, long or short growing season? How much arable land? What is under the ground--oil, minerals, precious metals? Are there navigable rivers, are we on a sea coast, are we land-locked? All these matter mightily.
> 
> But so do we. What kind of politicians do we elect? What kind of tax law, labor law, do we decide upon? Do we choose to pay our taxes? What do our businessmen decide to invest in? And do they invest at home or abroad? And why? These things reflect on us and our character traits, and yes, this element can in part be traced to our genes.
> ...


So that means that north France have other Genes cause they Revolt and today have no King,
same in USA, probably patriots had another genes and did not pay tax for tea,

I wonder if genes are connecting also with masturbation of mind???

and since some do not understand Hugo and the Janver who was searching criminality in the structures of the bones of the head,
seems like I might start to believe him, 99% of Nuclear weapons belongs to what genes?

seems like Janver was right, the genes that are connected with our head shape, 
100 years wars 70 years wars eternal wars
kill man to steal his wife etc etc, 

PS are we in mood for what? for genes superiority?

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## Carlitos

Since it avenges a tsunami and I took us to all ahead, I am going to say to you where the genes go away to go.

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## archaiocapilos

> Except that the Greco-Roman Antiquity was a slave-based society where most of the wealth was produced by slaves. You just cannot compare it to modern society. Furthermore, the haplogroup frequencies 2000 years ago and now might well have been quite different with all the migrations that took place, all the wars, and so on.


Well for a start slaves in ancient Greece were different from slaves in 19th century USA for example (they were actually quite close to modern gastarbeiters who are slaves without knowing it). And most of them were South Europeans like their masters so it was E-V13 dominated people who created wealth eitherway...
BTW the people who work in German factories nowadays are of forreign origin (Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Polish, Italians) so I could also claim that they produce the wealth of the most wealthy European country (which I don't)

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## iapetoc

> Except that the Greco-Roman Antiquity was a slave-based society where most of the wealth was produced by slaves. You just cannot compare it to modern society. Furthermore, the haplogroup frequencies 2000 years ago and now might well have been quite different with all the migrations that took place, all the wars, and so on.


First of all we must recon the difference of Slave = σκλαυος and Worker=ειλωτας and tax payer = δουλος.

2nd what make the British empire? exept of steel? 
James watt and his vapor machine? wowow what he invented? Ηρων ο Αλεξανδρευς Eron from alaxandreia, was the first who used steam power to open the gates of the temple, 
nobody seeks Ydna of Eron but all might search Ydna of Watt and no one the victims of early industrial age?
the 1 room 8people family sleep in a city in Britain,
so the rich of Incas went to spain to end in hands of british who 200 years before the communists pushed people and take them from their villages to send them in a misery city full of coal ashes, 
that times human were just a waste of feeding to his 'master' vapor, and if cut a hand who cares? Bankers are earning.
the rich of ancient Greeks was olive oil, the rich of northwest was coal, 
Both had slaves, in fact some even travell to west africa to gain them!!!!!
why? 
*THAT TIME E-V13 did not had anaimias?*
*THAT Time E-v13 were better workers than today? or not?*

maybe thalassaimia and sickle enter after the civil war in USA when some slaves return back to Liberia 
lazy and corrupt are in mind and in propaganda 
in some european countries some people grew beard and live by money of state to those who have dog,

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## archaiocapilos

An other factor that dismisses the whole argument is that ancient Greeks and Hebrews (both with 20-25% E1b1b today) were the two peoples who most influenced our thought of what is ethical. How could they if they were genetically programmed towards corruption?

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## archaiocapilos

> I have not been to Lebanon, Syria or Egypt, but I have been to Turkey and Morocco, and I have seen a lot of natives there that could be pass as south europeans, and not all had surgery. the same is true in reverse.
> Here we have 4 fools hating me because I talk about haplogroups E or T and its origin non european. If I only talked about haplogroups R or I, they will love me. I don't care, they are a complete waste of time. They writte the same in all forums, and they think that with their insults to me, scientific files will be forgotten. Poor men .


E1b1b was in Europe before R1b or R1a (at least it's V13 subclade) so it is more European than R is...In fact E1b1b1a2 (V13) is almost ubsent out of Europe and is -together with haplogroups I, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a7- an exclusive European haplogroup. If you label E1b1b1a2 African because it's parent clade E1b1b1a originated in Egypt/Aethiopia then you should also label R1b1a2a1a (L51) and I as Central Asian/Middle Eastern because R1b and IJ originated there...

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## Maciamo

> E1b1b was in Europe before R1b or R1a (at least it's V13 subclade) so it is more European than R is...In fact E1b1b1a2 (V13) is almost ubsent out of Europe and is -together with haplogroups I, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a7- an exclusive European haplogroup. If you label E1b1b1a2 African because it's parent clade E1b1b1a originated in Egypt/Aethiopia then you should also label R1b1a2a1a (L51) and I as Central Asian/Middle Eastern because R1b and IJ originated there...


It depends what you call Europe. Personally I consider Russia (until the Urals) and Ukraine to be in Europe, so R1a at least was probably in Europe since the Paleolithic, and R1b probably since the Neolithic just like E1b1b. The thing is that E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, and R1b are all haplogroups that came to Europe from the Middle East. Haplogroups I and R1a are the only Paleolithic European haplogroups.

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## Maciamo

> Well for a start slaves in ancient Greece were different from slaves in 19th century USA for example (they were actually quite close to modern gastarbeiters who are slaves without knowing it). And most of them were South Europeans like their masters so it was E-V13 dominated people who created wealth eitherway...
> BTW the people who work in German factories nowadays are of forreign origin (Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Polish, Italians) so I could also claim that they produce the wealth of the most wealthy European country (which I don't)


That is not true. Slaves in the Antiquity were personal possessions that could be sold, physically abused and even killed by their owners if they wanted to. Their condition wasn't like slaves in 19th century USA, it was worse. At least Americans didn't sacrifice hundreds of thousands of slaves annually for their entertainment like the Romans. 

You could not have chosen a worse analogy than the modern Gastarbeiters. Ancient slaves, when they were lucky to work for a kind and humane family, were more like servants of upper and upper-middle class European families until the early 20th century, living with them 24h, and doing house chores, cooking, or taking care of their masters' children. Like house servants they got food and accommodation in exchange for their work, but had very little free time and usually (there were exceptions in both cases) couldn't marry or have children of their own while in service. The main difference was that modern house servants were not owned by their masters, could resign or change job whenever they wanted, and could own personal belongings, whereas slaves had to wait to be emancipated, which was by no way guaranteed and only relied on the good graces of their masters.

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## Maciamo

I moved the argument between Ferreiro, Knovas and Grey Moss here and closed the thread. Please stop this childish bickering or some people will get banned.

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## iapetoc

> That is not true. Slaves in the Antiquity were personal possessions that could be sold, physically abused and even killed by their owners if they wanted to. Their condition wasn't like slaves in 19th century USA, it was worse. At least Americans didn't sacrifice hundreds of thousands of slaves annually for their entertainment like the Romans. 
> 
> You could not have chosen a worse analogy than the modern Gastarbeiters. Ancient slaves, when they were lucky to work for a kind and humane family, were more like servants of upper and upper-middle class European families until the early 20th century, living with them 24h, and doing house chores, cooking, or taking care of their masters' children. Like house servants they got food and accommodation in exchange for their work, but had very little free time and usually (there were exceptions in both cases) couldn't marry or have children of their own while in service. The main difference was that modern house servants were not owned by their masters, could resign or change job whenever they wanted, and could own personal belongings, whereas slaves had to wait to be emancipated, which was by no way guaranteed and only relied on the good graces of their masters.




Nope there are 5 words with different meaning, 

1 ΔΟΥΛΟΣ worker, they had everything except land and Vote rights, 
Not allowed to fight, they were protected by master, the take 66%% of what they earned,
they were a class, a working class only, when they were free they earn rights, 
the first corrupted Banker in ancient Athens was a δουλος that was set free and they him control of Athens central Bank
mostly farmers, merchants, and keep some things like fire, food stocks, also αχθοφοροι (carry things,)
the word 'work' in modern Greece is δουλεια, meaning how important they were to ancient society, and how their masters took good care for them

2 ειλωτας farmer, they had almost all the land in ancient Sparta, except the field of 4 000 m2 that was about to given to retired Ομοιοι, they give according land a % of production to omoioi, they did not vote, they did not go to war, about 15%

3 Συντεχνοι they are not mentioned widely cause some put them in class of δουλοι, 
they were mostly metalsmiths, or builders, they support army as diggers sharp weapons, etc
But not allowed to fight

4 Δεκανοι helpers, mostly they help priest, ephoroi etc, they knew writing and they were payed 
modern is the priest διακος a small degree in church degrees


5 Σκλαβοι, first mention by Xenophon in Κυρου αναβασις, (the cyrus attempt)
he describes that some rich man took people, they feed them and had them in cages, 
the words σκλαβος means εις κλωβο, in cage,

so the type of slave who lives in cages and has chains was unknown to ancient Greeks, in fact if we read Xenophon he is astonished by what he seen, 

the slaves in ancient Greeks is like modern workers Tax payers, 
according city state they had priviledge, rights and obligations, as modern day workers,
they earn money, but gave tax to master, 
THEY NEVER WENT TO WAR, except the LAST BATTLE, IN ACHAIA PELOPONESE.

another class was the semi free states like Arcadians to Spartans, Arcadians were semi free, they could go to war, to produce what ever, but they should use Sparta prices on Market, and only Sparta harbor,
THEY DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE,

a δουλος could be a master after his price was paid,
an ειλωτας never, except if he moved to another town, 

In Makedonia we find similar system, the masters village, 
Makedonians have democracy and absolute together, 
they have democracy in city rulers, and market rulers, and protection rulers, only in cities and villages of συντεχνοι, 
the rest area belong to military families, so a city with walls had democracy, but the military who protect did not, 
out side city land belong to some military officers or the king, a village of farmers that lived there should produce only farming and warriors, all paid money, but did have the right to own land, only city people had small land, and the big military families, 

the later sclavoi as is described in roman times, is half a myth, 
besides Greeks were not saint, but they fear more the gods, than Romans who became gods,
the christian expansion also put some myths and exagerations in working class in ancient world,

a slave according time is something that always existed, 
today we name them workers!!! 

about same was in ancient world, except times when man became God,
at least until phillip's time we know that was a shame to have sexual with your slave,
in fact it was honor to have sex with 'captured' high class,
In Homer we see the 2 big fight about 1 girls,
it was an Honor to have a captured one of high class, even to marry one, 
it was not honor to have a slave for sex, at least until phillips times,

Αισωπος was a doulos class teacher, who become free and still worked as teacher, did not changing class,

we have many cases of friendship among the 2 class,

the later roman gladiators, and sclaves and etc is another story, 

remember the first brothel was in middle East, and still sclaves were like working class, 
the inhuman face to a sclave is first written in Xenophon, and later and became giving gifts sclaves in west world, a pair of blondes, or a strong Numidian worker, or a educated Greek, 

it is another story the paid doulos, and another the free work sclavos of later,

In fact I believe sometimes that was better, 

the modern case that a human will work a whole life in Corporation that belongs to Mr Z and paid, and when war comes, he will go to fight to protect Mr Z property while Mr Z will not go to fight, as in WW2 europe was, I believe is more unfair,


Besides in ancient world, at least Greece, sclaves lived in his Mastrers house, or had their own houses, 
today modern Slave merchant bring people, in a pathetic boat, to pass Aegean or Mediterrenean or Adriatic, they take money from slaves thousands of E per Head to pass them from Pakistan to Eu, and they abandon them where ever, full of disease, hungry and uneducated, the use them in as cheap workers and they let them live in inhuman conditions, 
at least in some eras and areas slavery was better than today, 
just think, some people today pay to become slaves !!!!!

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## Ferreiro_

The problem in southern Europe is the huge degree of corruption we have. In Spain, all political parties, both left and right, are involved in corruption cases. The problem is that instead of expelling the corrupts, political parties to protect them. I do not know if the reason is the haplogroup E or the education of society. Unfortunaly corruption is widespread in southern Europe.

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## iapetoc

> The problem in southern Europe is the huge degree of corruption we have. In Spain, all political parties, both left and right, are involved in corruption cases. The problem is that instead of expelling the corrupts, political parties to protect them. I do not know if the reason is the haplogroup E or the education of society. Unfortunaly corruption is widespread in southern Europe.


I don't believe so,
I know people and system well in Greece,
the problem is the artificial unemployment, and the divided people,
for example, if a left parties member steal money, in order to avoid scandal all party members say he is innocent, and right parties say so as propaganda,
that created a 'trust' of politicians, who monopolize the country, 
they cooper among them behind sceenes, but they fight infront TV cameras, 
but Nobody goes to prison, goes they make laws that help them,
so greed people learn how to use the people, by creating unemployment they have him in service, 
the system is old, from Roman times, a bucket of wheat to vote a senate member, 
the absence of ostracism by the people, create a non fear senate enviroment, '
if we had ostracism in our days, then how many people are connected with scandals will have to leave country and loose properties?
that fear was about to create a respect to people choice by politicians, and move away all 'bad' thoughs on how to steal the country.

the Northen Europe has also no ostracism system but has clear divide the judges authority, and helps democracy as old Ηλιαια did, 
that means in North judges are strong, while in South are weak, 

corruption has to do with punishment also, 
if you punish corrupted, then you fight corruption, but if you send to prison simple people and you make 'favor' to rich and corrupted, then system is sick, 

In Greece we say, if I steal a 'salami' I will go to prison as thief, 
If I steal 1 000 000 E there I am a 'sir' a gentleman, and everybody say 'good morning mister' to me
the luck of punishment, the weak judges, the no 'ostracism power' to people, creates corruption, 
not the race,

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## archaiocapilos

> the luck of punishment, the weak judges, the no 'ostracism power' to people, creates corruption, 
> not the race,


 Well said ...

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## Maciamo

I have moved the discussion about the phenotypes of the Greeks to a new thread of its own, as it has nothing to do with the original topic and probably will generate a lot of debate. I like to have clear threads well organised by topics...

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## Wilhelm

Well, Austria or Switzerland have more E than Spain.

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## archaiocapilos

> As for Greece, it is a very carved and fragmented country with strongly varying haplogroup frequencies between regions. While northern Greece can exceed 30% of haplogroup E, Crete is under 10% and some islands have under 5% of E. Greeks may think of themselves as one ethnic group, but DNA rather suggests a confederacy of many ethnicities.


Your lies about Greece just don't have an end, do they? Northern Greece has 20.5% of E1b1b, Crete is over 10% and NO island was ever found to have less then 5%. Come on Maciamo, three lies in a row?

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## archaiocapilos

> It depends what you call Europe. Personally I consider Russia (until the Urals) and Ukraine to be in Europe, so R1a at least was probably in Europe since the Paleolithic, and R1b probably since the Neolithic just like E1b1b. The thing is that E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, and R1b are all haplogroups that came to Europe from the Middle East. Haplogroups I and R1a are the only Paleolithic European haplogroups.


 But you only name E1b1b, G2a*(xG2a3b1), J1 and J2 Middle Eastern while you name R1b West European...who are you trying to fool?

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## Maciamo

> But you only name E1b1b, G2a*(xG2a3b1), J1 and J2 Middle Eastern while you name R1b West European...who are you trying to fool?


Please put that into context. Where are you referring to ? In the haplogroup tables, R1b is classified as Mesolithic Eurasian, alongside G2a. In the Paleolithic R1b was Middle Eastern or Central Asian. Now it is mostly Western European.

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## Maciamo

> Your lies about Greece just don't have an end, do they? Northern Greece has 20.5% of E1b1b, Crete is over 10% and NO island was ever found to have less then 5%. Come on Maciamo, three lies in a row?


Easy explanation. I revised the frequencies in Y-DNA tables and changed the denominations. What I called Northern Greece was actually the data for Thessaly (which I now reclassified under the new 'Central Greece' category). As for Crete, it was the frequency I had before because I had forgotten to take one study into account. The Lashiti Plateau in Crete has under 5% of E, for example.

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## zanipolo

link to E and J

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929707643663

maybe a bit old, but still has a lot of reference

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## drroots

"Link between haplogroup E and poor economic performance"

Well, in europe, probably I2a would been more meaningful one... 

https://www.google.com/search?q=haplogroup+I2a&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X& ved=0ahUKEwikuKTn29XVAhVTfiYKHc3bBesQ_AUICigB&biw= 1280&bih=726

Or R1b including africa too....

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