# Population Genetics > mtDNA Haplogroups >  Ashkenazi clade ?

## lluis

If you consult the results page in the project mt Haplogroup “I” of FTDNA you will find the sub clade “I1c” under the denomination “Ashkenazi clade”. It is the only similar tag I’ve found in the projects I’ve visited. 
As I’m “I1c” I have especial interest in find out if there is something that justifies this assertion. 
Since the studies of Behar et al., some years ago, it is known that a hundred generations ago there was a bottleneck and more of 40% of the ashkenazi descend of only four women “founders” . But as is explained in the 2006 article “The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event”. Behar et al. three of women founders belong to haplogroup “K” and the other was “N1b”. The denomination of the haplogroups change and maybe, but I don’t think so, the 2006 “N1b” is now “N1 I1c”. Even then I don’t think justified to name a subclade as ashkenazi clade because one woman, not the woman that had the mutation, belonged to this grup. Prima facie it’s not serious but I need more information. 
Any coment is welcome and it can help me in this issue.

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## grandpa broon

I put my mtdna through a search engine (I'm J1c) and it also appears to be more common in the Ashkenazi Jews

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## Knovas

When did you get the results? if it was long ago maybe changed.

Never heard of Jewish maternal "I" variants. Anyways, my suggestion is you take an autosomal test to see if there is some relevant similarity with Ashkenazi Jews.

PD: J1c is a very common maternal line and it doesn't mean anything. I think an specific variant of J1c7 (J1c7a?) could have something to do with this.

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## adamo

J1c is VERY prevalent among Ashkenazi Jewish females I believe.

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## grandpa broon

> When did you get the results? if it was long ago maybe changed.
> 
> Never heard of Jewish maternal "I" variants. Anyways, my suggestion is you take an autosomal test to see if there is some relevant similarity with Ashkenazi Jews.
> 
> PD: J1c is a very common maternal line and it doesn't mean anything. I think an specific variant of J1c7 (J1c7a?) could have something to do with this.


Got the results in January of this year

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## Knovas

> J1c is VERY prevalent among Ashkenazi Jewish females I believe.


You can think what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that lots of Europeans with no Jewish roots are plain J1c. So it doesn't mean anything as I said, since this group is THOUSANDS of years old.

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## Knovas

> Got the results in January of this year


I was asking to lluis, but thanks anyway.

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## Nobody1

mtDNA J:
*Pala et al 2012* - _Uni. of Huddersfield_
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22560092

_Here we report, on the basis of an enlarged whole-genome mitochondrial database, that a substantial, perhaps predominant, signal from mitochondrial haplogroups J and T, previously thought to have spread primarily from the Near East into Europe with the Neolithic population, may in fact reflect dispersals during the Late Glacial period,_

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## adamo

As you can see from this map, mtdna J reaches a maximum on the Arabian peninsula, in Yemen and central Saudi Arabia in particular. The next highest frequency is in southern Iraq. And near southwestern Iran. Egypt has some but it is present at much lower levels in the levant. It was also present at much lower frequencies in Europe.

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## adamo

Mtdna T on the ther hand, seems to peak in central Iran, the Caucasus and near the levant, in Syria particularly. In Europe its present in Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian women, not to mention some Germans, Czech, Austrians, north italians, French , English women. It either originated on the iranian peninsula or the Caucasus or near Syria.

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## grandpa broon

thanks for putting this up

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## grandpa broon

> I was asking to lluis, but thanks anyway.


wasn't sure who you were asking,

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## zanipolo

> mtDNA J:
> *Pala et al 2012* - _Uni. of Huddersfield_
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22560092
> 
> _Here we report, on the basis of an enlarged whole-genome mitochondrial database, that a substantial, perhaps predominant, signal from mitochondrial haplogroups J and T, previously thought to have spread primarily from the Near East into Europe with the Neolithic population, may in fact reflect dispersals during the Late Glacial period,_


thanks 

do you have a starting spot for H as I first saw it as a central asian 

SMGF has H as northern russian...but then they have T as southern Norway and J in western france :Confused: .................I am referring to only mtDNa in this post

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## lluis

I copy here my reply to Maciano in the post about the new map of the mtDNA haplogroup I.
Some months ago I've opened this new subject about this aspect of the I1c subclade and I think here is the best place to talk about.


Originally Posted by *Maciamo:*

It's impossible to attribute an ethnic origin to the whole of haplogroup I as it is divided in 6 main branches and many subclades, which have a very different geographic distribution.

*Subclades*

- I1a is found in Central and Eastern Europe, in the Caucasus and in the British isles. I1a1a seem to be found almost exclusively among the Finns. I1b has been found in Sweden, Poland and Kurdistan. *I1c is an Ashkenazi subclade. IMHO, The I1 branch is of Balto-Slavic origin and linked to Y-haplogroup R1a. The Ashkenazi subclade may either be Levite (who are mostly R1a) or the result of intermarriages with Central Europeans.*

Posted by Lluis:

Please, can you explain me why do you said I1c is an Ashkenazi subclade? There are some people who are I1c and Ashkenazi but there are others, as myself, that do not have any know maternal ancestor who were Ashkenazi.

In the FTDNA I project they name the I1c group as Ashkenazi clade but I don't know why. I have tried to find any clue but I've failed. I have asked a genetic scientific who as done the most cited papers on the founder effects in Jewish population and he has answered me that he had not studied this subclade.

I am very interested in this subject, so if you have any other information, please, share it with us.

Lluis.

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## adamo

Mtdna T seems to reach frequency peaks in central Iran, the Caucasus region (near Armenia), Syria, Israel, and is also found in Egypt. Within Europe, it peaks near Czech Republic, eastern Germany, Austria, northeastern italy; parts of Romania and Bulgaria. Mtdna T can be found in as many as 40% of west-central Russian females. About 10% of European females are hg T. It originated 16,000 years ago somewhere in the Middle East. For example 12% of Ukrainian, Swiss, Syrian, Romanian, Sardinian, Hungarian, Greek, Egyptian, Czech, Austrian, Armenia and Albanian women belong to T. The frequencies are of about 15% though for Georgian and Azerbaijan women. The data on this site in my opinion is very flawed on Russian females hg T stating that something like 5% of Russian women are T whereas I think it should be more like 25%. The plains of westernmost Russia have as much as 40% mtdna T.

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## adamo

J on the other hand has a center of weight more on the Arabian peninsula (Yemen, Saudi Arabia) and southern Iraq, western Iran. It also appears in Egypt and I have described where in Europe it is most common above on this very thread. Both mtdna's J and T are more recent Neolithic haplogroups that reached Europe within the last 10,000 years probably. These sister haplogroups both own about 10% of European females each: more recent colonizing females from the near east.

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