# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Proto-Greeks

## Diomedes

I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?

Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?

Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.

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## Angela

> I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?
> 
> Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?
> 
> Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.


The short answer is that no one knows, and if or until we get ancient dna from these groups no one can know. What you'll get here is a lot of baseless speculation.

As for the Pelasgians, that's a discredited, a-scientific term. There were pre-Greek speaking Greeks, and post-Greek speaking Greeks, with another division between pre-Slavic and post-Slavic Greeks.

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## Yetos

Diomedes

it called the return of Timenides 
Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων

Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι

yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,

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## LABERIA

> Diomedes
> 
> it called the return of Timenides 
> Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων
> 
> Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι
> 
> yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,


Can you quote some scholar?

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

.


Hi Diomedes, I am Epirotan too, from paternal and maternal side. (Saracatsanian)
There are many opinions about the subject. Personally I wouldn't rely to foreigners opinions, especially to those who never stepped to the place, but from the other hand I wouldn't rely to the "greek" opinions... "Never trust the Greeks".  :Laughing: 



Generally I have good faith to all opinions, I have good trust to the sources (ancient scripts) as well to the contemporary specialists, but to the one which I am in blind trust is *Aristotle* the master of termination and classification, - the father of "science"- in all means. 
Just for the record to remind you the ten meanings/categories (Αι κατηγορίαι):
Ουσία/~ substance, essence, quintessence, entity, matter, pithiness, nature etc. 

Ποσόν/~Quantity, amount, etc.
Σχέσις/~ Relation , connection, association.
Τόπος/ ~ Place
Χρόνος/~ Time
Θέσις/~ Position
Πάσχειν/~ Suffering (;)
Πράττειν/~Acting (;)
Έχειν/~ Having (;)


Ποιόν/~ qualities 


So according to *Aristotle,* -guess what- Greeks are the habitants of Epirus! (end of the story.)


I consider also that Epirotan and Macedonians are the same people, -or else, not so diffferent- they are something like the "rednecks" or "hillbilies" of their time when they appear with that names. At that point it is good to know that the prehistory studies are not so highlighted till today, -in Greece- and the big reason behind is the "glamour" of the Classic ages. An other think which we have not to underestimate is the absence of free space to support big setlements, and the "recycle" of many of the stone elements which would indicate us a lot for past ages. 
Maybe you noticed the absence of megalithic structures in the penninsula... That possibly indicate two things, or the place never "loaded" with -late- neolithic farmers, or it was overloaded...
Anyway the Minyans accomplished huge irrigation and drainage works to Thebes and Thessally, similar if not bigger of that of the Babylonians, check to that point the almost low profile of their fame, allthough the most of the myths or even the later dramas of the classic poets are deployed to that places. (!?) Yes it is true Pelasgians is the most intriguing part of greek history and with a lot expansion in time and place. At that point not to forget Aeacus/Αίακος which is the line of the Epirotan kings Aecides/Αιακίδες as well to Achilles and his Myrmidons.


For the Dorians I consider they appear lately with that name, but is not a foreign stock, some people confuse that but they dont know the simple think that here -Greece-, people having name for every stone... Allthough there are many "dialects" but not "languages" as perhaps the germanic ones.
Anyway I consider thm as remnant of a late copper age (for the greek historiography termination chronology) which usually here -forum- is addresed as bronze age. I have the feeling that are people "out of the city walls" and peasants of the people like "Myceneans" (which is not a stock) as well to Argives or Pyleans or the elite of the Thebes...
I have the feeeling that we are talking for people from a different cast with different attitude and way of leaving. Just mind that is impossible the people inside the wall-cities- up on the hills to live with out their farmers on their plains and without their sheppards to the mountains -away from the corps, as you imagine-, and since we are talking also for a "seafaring" civilization we must not to forget the... Woodcutters, Dorians- maybe?


Here we are 
Εκ-_δορά,_ ~ abrasion, excoriation (?) of the woods
_Δόρυ_ ~ the wooden rod of the spear (?) as the spear also.
_Δούρειος Ίππος ~_ The wooden (?) Trojan horse (dourios hippos)


Sorry for the long post. but this subjects is not for two lines, but for a couple of dozens of books.

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## LABERIA

> .
> 
> 
> Hi Diomedes, I am Epirotan too, from paternal and maternal side. (Saracatsanian)
> There are many opinions about the subject. Personally I wouldn't rely to foreigners opinions, especially to those who never stepped to the place, but from the other hand I wouldn't rely to the "greek" opinions... "Never trust the Greeks". 
> 
> 
> 
> Generally I have good faith to all opinions, I have good trust to the sources (ancient scripts) as well to the contemporary specialists, but to the one which I am in blind trust is *Aristotle* the master of termination and classification, - the father of "science"- in all means. 
> ...


There are plenty of ancient authors who contradict your claim and consider the inhabitants of Epir, barbarians, i.e. non greek. Strabo, for example. And Strabo considered ancient Macedonians and Epirotes different people. About ancient Macedonians, do you have read Demosthenes? I don't understand what we are discussing here? 
About Dorians, we don't know if there was an migration of dorians. But if we accept this so-called migration, some of them were Illyrian tribes. Many scholars recognize as Illyrian one of the main tribes, Hylleans. 
First time i heard this theory of Dorians=Woodcutters. Is your personal opinion or this theory is supported by scholars? The ancient didn't divided the world in city-dwellers, farmers, shepherds, "seafaring" and Woodcutters. They divided the world in greek and non greek, barbarians. 
P. S. 
Please guys, sometimes use some credible sources. Because without this sources, everything is just an unfounded personal opinion.

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## Diomedes

I never heard of Timenides. Who are these people?




> Diomedes
> 
> it called the return of Timenides 
> Επιστροφη των Τημανιδων
> 
> Dorians are called Trihakes from Trikke (Τρικαλα σημαρινα) Τρικκαιοι
> 
> yes most modern Linguists believe that Greek language origin is in Today Epirus and upper Makedonia till Albania and Fyrom,

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## DuPidh

> I read somewhere that Proto-Greeks were actually located in the area of Epirus. Could this be relevant with the descent of the Dorians (Heracles sons, Ηρακλείδες) from northern lands?
> 
> Another question is this: who were the Dorians and were they before in mainland Greece? If yes, what made them leave? Were the Dorians the so called Pelasgians?
> 
> Any thoughts on this matter will be extremely helpful here.


Proto Greeks means they were not Greeks or Hellenes. They were someone else. Of course there were people living in Epiros before Hellenes arrived . Now Greek language shows links with Armenian. That means Armenians and Hellenes lived in the same place before they separated. As you know Armenia is nowhere close to Epiros. So you better look to Anatolia for the sources of early Greeks. If you have red any genetics discussion Greek genetic mark is J2a and its subclades. They are the hardcore Hellenic mark. If you look on the map Anatolia is the home of that clade.

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## DuPidh

> The short answer is that no one knows, and if or until we get ancient dna from these groups no one can know. What you'll get here is a lot of baseless speculation.
> 
> As for the Pelasgians, that's a discredited, a-scientific term. There were pre-Greek speaking Greeks, and post-Greek speaking Greeks, with another division between pre-Slavic and post-Slavic Greeks.


I am afraid you are rushing the judgement on this topic. All you have to do is type :Pellasgoi and wiki and you see there is more than enough evidence for the presence of Pellasgs. What is discredited is the effort to hide their presence.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> There are plenty of ancient authors who contradict your claim and consider the inhabitants of Epir, barbarians, i.e. non greek. Strabo, for example. And Strabo considered ancient Macedonians and Epirotes different people. About ancient Macedonians, do you have read Demosthenes? I don't understand what we are discussing here? 
> About Dorians, we don't know if there was an migration of dorians. But if we accept this so-called migration, some of them were Illyrian tribes. Many scholars recognize as Illyrian one of the main tribes, Hylleans. 
> First time i heard this theory of Dorians=Woodcutters. Is your personal opinion or this theory is supported by scholars? The ancient didn't divided the world in city-dwellers, farmers, shepherds, "seafaring" and Woodcutters. They divided the world in greek and non greek, barbarians. 
> P. S. 
> Please guys, sometimes use some credible sources. Because without this sources, everything is just an unfounded personal opinion.


-*Dorians*
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
*
*Dorian of Bronze Age Pylos[edit]*A man's name, Dōrieus, occurs in the Linear B tablets at Pylos, one of the regions later invaded and subjugated by the Dorians.[8] Pylos tablet Fn867 records it in the dative case as do-ri-je-we, **Dōriēwei*, a third or consonant declension noun with stem ending in w. An unattested nominative plural, *Dōriēwes, would have become Dōrieis by loss of the w and contraction. The tablet records the grain rations issued to the servants of "religious dignitaries" celebrating a religious festival of Potnia, the mother goddess.[9]
The nominative singular, Dōrieus, remained the same in the classical period.[10] Many Linear B names of servants were formed from their home territory or the places where they came into Mycenaean ownership. According to Carl Darling Buck, the -eus suffix was very productive. One of its uses was to convert a toponym to an anthroponym; for example, Megareus, "Megarian," from Megara.[11] A Dōrieus would be from Dōris, the only classical Greek state to serve as the basis for the name of the Dorians. The state is a small one in the mountains of west central Greece. However, classical Doris may not have been the same as Mycenaean Doris.
*Dorians of upland Doris[edit]*A number of credible etymologies by noted scholars have been proposed. Julius Pokorny derives Δωριεύς, _Dōrieus_ from δωρίς, _dōris_, "woodland" (which can also mean upland).[12] The _dōri-_segment is from the o-grade (either _ō_ or _o_) of Proto-Indo-European _*deru-_, "tree", which also gives the Homeric Δούρειος Ἵππος (_Doureios Hippos_, "Wooden Horse").[13] This derivation has the advantage of naming the people after their wooded, mountainous country.
*Lancers[edit]*A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (_doru_) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen."[14] In this case the country would be named after the people, as in Saxony from the Saxons. However, R. S. P. Beekes doubted the validity of this derivation and asserted that no good etymology exists.[15]

*Chosen Greeks[edit]*It sometimes happens that different derivations of an Indo-European word exploit similar-sounding Indo-European roots. Greek _doru_, "lance," is from the o-grade of Indo-European *_deru_, "solid," in the sense of wood. It is similar to an extended form, *_dō-ro-_, of _*dō-_, (give), as can be seen in the modern Greek imperative δώσε (_dose_, "give [sing.]!") appearing in Greek as δῶρον (_dōron_, "gift"). This is the path taken by Jonathan Hall, relying on elements taken from the myth of the Return of the Herakeidai.[16]

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> To me is very _ainigmatic_ how can be in ancient times a person at the same time barbarian and Greek. Ancient greeks had not such _ainigma_. Seems that this misunderstanding is strong among the neogreeks. Can you explain this?




*Aristotle*/Meteorology
*http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html*



...The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called* Graeci* and now* Hellenes*...

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

@Yetos

You see post#18,
You mean Κυμαίοι from Cumae of Euboea? -Tanagraei?

I did not know.

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## LABERIA

> like the source that you used in an other discussion claiming that the international commitee for north epirus ordered woman to strip so they could judge their nationality by the type of vest they were wearing?Or when i provided sources for the byzantines calling them selves and called by others greeks by quoting pope innocent the third and geoffrey de villeharouin and you just skip it (if you like i can provide dozins of sources from all the periods of the byzantine empire)
> something more than a quote a proof:Attachment 8932 an epirotan coin. 
> pirrus is a greek name and his sons were elenos alexandros ptolemeos and his daughter olympia here is his coin:Attachment 8934
> a macedonian coin of alexander the firstAttachment 8933 all of them in greek letters
> From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as _hyparchos_ by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor.[7] Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the rest of the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia.[8]After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
> Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles, although Macedon was considered a "barbaric" state by some in Athens, whose territories were threatened by its expansion.[9] After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games[10][11] possibly in 504 BC,[12] an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander.[13] The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I.[14] Alexander I was given the title "Philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", _fond of the Greeks_, _lover of the Greeks_), a title used for Greek patriots.


About your irony, i will find the time and the post mentioned by you and i will answer. I avoided the answer because is useless to spend my time with you. I know who you are. 
The rest of your post is crap.

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## LABERIA

> *You begin that, as usual!*
> 
> 
> 
> It is obvious what your efforts are, nothing else to promote your anti-Greek agenda with rudiculous arguments and stupid accusations. You always participate to every thread related to Greeks with poisonous comments against other posters, actually your interesting is not to say who you think "you" are, but what the 'others" you like to consider that probably is. Actually your only wish is to prove us that the Greeks are not Greeks while the people which dont "remember" their greekness are more Greek... This is your attempt?
> That is how you spend your time to other forums around the internet? -or it is your first time here?
> 
> 
> You quote more than enough times, but you dont care about "my" answers, you want only to give negative impressions, cause you are a negative person and you always be a looser, -always to the wrong side...
> ...


Not only a negative reputation but also a very long post against me only because i asked a simple thing:



> Can you quote some scholar?


Sorry, but all this is ridiculous.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

@ Yetos, 
I aggre with Cumae... The thinks with the names is tricky enough.
Anyway thanks, I will have that in mind.

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## LABERIA

> -*Dorians*
> *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
> *
> *Dorian of Bronze Age Pylos[edit]*A man's name, Dōrieus, occurs in the Linear B tablets at Pylos, one of the regions later invaded and subjugated by the Dorians.[8] Pylos tablet Fn867 records it in the dative case as do-ri-je-we, **Dōriēwei*, a third or consonant declension noun with stem ending in w. An unattested nominative plural, *Dōriēwes, would have become Dōrieis by loss of the w and contraction. The tablet records the grain rations issued to the servants of "religious dignitaries" celebrating a religious festival of Potnia, the mother goddess.[9]
> The nominative singular, Dōrieus, remained the same in the classical period.[10] Many Linear B names of servants were formed from their home territory or the places where they came into Mycenaean ownership. According to Carl Darling Buck, the -eus suffix was very productive. One of its uses was to convert a toponym to an anthroponym; for example, Megareus, "Megarian," from Megara.[11] A Dōrieus would be from Dōris, the only classical Greek state to serve as the basis for the name of the Dorians. The state is a small one in the mountains of west central Greece. However, classical Doris may not have been the same as Mycenaean Doris.
> *Dorians of upland Doris[edit]*A number of credible etymologies by noted scholars have been proposed. Julius Pokorny derives Δωριεύς, _Dōrieus_ from δωρίς, _dōris_, "woodland" (which can also mean upland).[12] The _dōri-_segment is from the o-grade (either _ō_ or _o_) of Proto-Indo-European _*deru-_, "tree", which also gives the Homeric Δούρειος Ἵππος (_Doureios Hippos_, "Wooden Horse").[13] This derivation has the advantage of naming the people after their wooded, mountainous country.
> *Lancers[edit]*A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (_doru_) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen."[14] In this case the country would be named after the people, as in Saxony from the Saxons. However, R. S. P. Beekes doubted the validity of this derivation and asserted that no good etymology exists.[15]
> 
> *Chosen Greeks[edit]*It sometimes happens that different derivations of an Indo-European word exploit similar-sounding Indo-European roots. Greek _doru_, "lance," is from the o-grade of Indo-European *_deru_, "solid," in the sense of wood. It is similar to an extended form, *_dō-ro-_, of _*dō-_, (give), as can be seen in the modern Greek imperative δώσε (_dose_, "give [sing.]!") appearing in Greek as δῶρον (_dōron_, "gift"). This is the path taken by Jonathan Hall, relying on elements taken from the myth of the Return of the Herakeidai.[16]


Your post is a selective copy paste from Wikipedia, which show your limits in this matter. From your source:




> Dorian invasion
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This article is about a hypothetical event of prehistoric Greece. For other uses, see Dorian (disambiguation).
> Part of a series on the
> History of Greece
> Part of a map of the Mediterranean Sea and adjacent regions by William Faden, March 1785
> Neolithic Greece[show]
> Greek Bronze Age[show]
> Ancient Greece[show]
> ...


Exactly what i told you in my previous post.

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## LABERIA

*@mods.*
The language of the forum is English. Can we have an translation in English of this posts in greek language?

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## Angela

Unless you provide an English translation you don't get to post in another language. You all know this. 

No divisive political discussions, accusations, etc. are allowed. You also know this.

I don't appreciate having to spend some of my summer Saturday monitoring nonsense like this, but I will, so conduct yourselves appropriately.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> To me is very _ainigmatic_ how can be in ancient times a person at the same time barbarian and Greek. Ancient greeks had not such _ainigma_. Seems that this misunderstanding is strong among the neogreeks. Can you explain this?


No one was 'Greek', so you need to rephrase the question.

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## Diomedes

Indeed, the Hellenism was among the different tribes (who were Hellenes), but they did not call themselves Hellas, as one country. They were Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Macedonia, Epirus etc.

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## Nik

I don't wanna get involved much, but wouldn't it be logical that the IE Proto-Hellenes would have to pass through either Epirus or Macedonia or both in order to eventually end up in Greece? Unless it's proven that they came from Anatolia. 

With regards to Epirus and Macedonia, a lot happened in those lands and culturally they were more similar to the nearby Illyrians and Thracians then Greeks, with the exception of Aetolians. But even Aetolians seem to have had some Illyrian influence or some possibly Proto-Illyrian tribes settled there. 

IMHO, all the confusion comes from using names such as Illyrian, Epirotan, Hellenes, etc. For me its not a matter of who was who, but who became who. 

Culturally speaking and from the way of living, I believe the situation between the Pre-Greeks and Pre-Illyrians was the same, the Pre-Greeks being more urban and Pre-Illyrians more tribal. It's not really the merit of the true Hellenes what became to be known as the Greek Civilization as there was always a civilization in those lands. Lets not forget that outside the city walls the countrymen were probably not that different from the Illyro-Thracian barbarians. And we know also for a fact that many non-urban communities in Greece were still non-Greek speaking even until the 5th century BC, so being Greek was more of a social status rather than ethnic division. 

Probably it was like being in the European Union  :Good Job:

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## IronSide

How strong is the argument for Catacomb culture to be the home of the proto-Greeks ? what is the evidence for or against ?

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## Yetos

> How strong is the argument for Catacomb culture to be the home of the proto-Greeks ? what is the evidence for or against ?



Ironside 
Catacomb and Yamnaa are major factors of all European and most IE

we speak about proto Greek
not proto IE

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## Angela

The next person to post an off-topic comment will receive an infraction. No more warnings.

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## IronSide

> Ironside 
> Catacomb and Yamnaa are major factors of all European and most IE
> 
> we speak about proto Greek
> not proto IE


Catacomb could be an ancestor to a subgroup of IE speakers, not all of them. the hypothetical Graeco-Armeno-Aryan (fancy name I know) clade of languages could have developed here, as it would explain some shared features among them.

Wikipedia's article on the thing isn't bad so I'll quote:




> *Graeco-Aryan* (or *Graeco-Armeno-Aryan*) is a hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family, ancestral to the Greek language, the Armenian language, and the Indo-Iranian languages. Graeco-Aryan unity would have become divided into Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian by the mid 3rd millennium BC. Conceivably, Proto-Armenian would have been located between Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian, consistent with the fact that Armenian shares certain features only with Indo-Iranian (the _satem_ change) but others only with Greek (_s_ > _h_).
> Graeco-Aryan has comparatively wide support among Indo-Europeanists for the Indo-European Homeland to be located in the Armenian Highland.[1][2][3][4] Early and strong evidence was given by Euler's 1979 examination on shared features in Greek and Sanskrit nominal flection.[5]
> Used in tandem with the Graeco-Armenian hypothesis, the Armenian language would also be included under the label *Aryano-Greco-Armenic*, splitting into proto-Greek/Phrygian and "Armeno-Aryan" (ancestor of Armenian and Indo-Iranian).[6][7]
> In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Greco-Aryan is also known as "Late PIE" or "Late Indo-European" (LIE), suggesting that Greco-Aryan forms a dialect group which corresponds to the latest stage of linguistic unity in the Indo-European homeland in the early part of the 3rd millennium BC. By 2500 BC, Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had separated, moving westward and eastward from the Pontic Steppe, respectively.[8]
> If Graeco-Aryan is a valid group, Grassmann's law may have a common origin in Greek and Sanskrit. Note, however, that Grassmann's law in Greek postdates certain sound changes that happened only in Greek and not Sanskrit, which suggests that it cannot strictly be an inheritance from a common Graeco-Aryan stage. Rather, it is more likely an areal feature that spread across a then-contiguous Graeco-Aryan–speaking area after early Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had developed into separate dialects but before they ceased being in geographic contact.
> Graeco-Aryan is invoked in particular in studies of comparative mythology, e.g. by West (1999)[9] and Watkins (2001).[10]


Eupedia's page on Catacomb mentions this: 




> A new funeral practice emerged with the modelling of a clay mask over the face of the deceased. These masks may have been the prototypes of the Mycenaean gold masks, like the famousMask of Agamemnon


So if I were to guess this is where the first Greek speakers emerged, it would be here, after that they probably migrated directly to the Balkans, and not through the Caucasus, simply because there is no evidence for such movement.

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## Yetos

> Catacomb could be an ancestor to a subgroup of IE speakers, not all of them. the hypothetical Graeco-Armeno-Aryan (fancy name I know) clade of languages could have developed here, as it would explain some shared features among them.
> 
> Wikipedia's article on the thing isn't bad so I'll quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Eupedia's page on Catacomb mentions this: 
> 
> 
> ...



I know Greco-Aryan theory, and is very good tested as conserning the Homeric
but this theory, as genertally the Greek language fits better with Renfrew theory of neolithic farmers
than the Gibutas Kurgans etc, Yamnaas etc.

Greco-Aryan theory is familiar to Auth, and most genetists accept more easy Renfrew than other theories.

the Armenia hypothesis is another theory.

anyway in Greece we have 2 +1 major theories, and both seem correct 

1 is the Giannopoulos work
which express better the Mycenean and their connection with Croatia Serbia 
Vucedol or Vucocar and Vatin (lately I found the term proto-cetina, but I still like the correct names)
this culture armor is connected with Mycenean armor and Minoan labrys
ISBN 978-960-524-393-73

so proto- Mycenean Greek should been spoken South of Istros around Croatia and Serbia and from there start their aspiration differences to finalize to Mycenean Greek and Linear B.

2 is the Auth aproach 
τριανταφυλλιδης triantafyllidis
that explains better the IEnization of Greece,
it more closer to Renfrew theory for a specific reason
the % of palaiolithic vs % of neolithic vs % of IE (steppe etc) admixture
that reason is the major reason why Greco-Aryan is grandly accepted in Greece.

the +1 theory came from the work of Georgiev and Duridanov and most recent linguists,
that does search the genetic but the connection and aspiration and glottochronology and isotones by pure words
by that Greek has only one brother language Brygian which is Thracian for ancients
so by that and archaiology ether Vucedol either Anatolian 
proto Greek were spoken beside Brygian and Brygian beside rest Thracian,
that is giving the following maps







that is correct either we follow the vucedol-vatin to Mycenean
either we speak about Neolithic populations
cause the density of neolithic and Palaiolithic is high

on the other hand the Mycenean although seems to be connected with Vucedol-vatin
shows also long corridors etc culture,
that is connected either with Minoans, either with Arcadians (Arzawa-Assuwa)
or a third less known like Pelasgians (might be Etruscans)

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## spartan owl

> About your irony, i will find the time and the post mentioned by you and i will answer. I avoided the answer because is useless to spend my time with you. I know who you are. 
> The rest of your post is crap.


yes i may be wrong but we can not know until you answer, instead you just decided to skip the facts, and the facts are:
1. if epirotans were not greeks then why pyrrhus did use the greek alphabet and language in his coins and with the correct grammar non the less "basileos pyrrou " ?
2. why did he had a greek name (the legend of deukalion and his wife pyrrha)?
3. why he gave a greek name in all of his children alexandros ptolemeos elenos and olympia?
4. why did he worship the greek gods as his name and his daughter olympia also prove?
so yes i believe that epirotans were greeks and probably epirus was the land from were the dorians started their invasion of southern greece.
And in fact the epirotan language is amongst the doric dialects.If you want any references just go to wkipedia on doric dialects there are plenty of them.

----------


## LABERIA

> yes i may be wrong but we can not know until you answer, instead you just decided to skip the facts, and the facts are:
> 1. if epirotans were not greeks then why pyrrhus did use the greek alphabet and language in his coins and with the correct grammar non the less "basileos pyrrou " ?
> 2. why did he had a greek name (the legend of deukalion and his wife pyrrha)?
> 3. why he gave a greek name in all of his children alexandros ptolemeos elenos and olympia?
> 4. why did he worship the greek gods as his name and his daughter olympia also prove?
> so yes i believe that epirotans were greeks and probably epirus was the land from were the dorians started their invasion of southern greece.
> And in fact the epirotan language is amongst the doric dialects.If you want any references just go to wkipedia on doric dialects there are plenty of them.


Excuse me but there are two pages deleted by the mods before this your post. 
You can believe whatever you want, it's your right to do. If you want to discuss about Epir open a new thread because this is considered of topic. 
And don't forget something very important, we are discussing about history not about the legends and mythology of ancient greeks and the new legends of neogreeks in Wikipedia.

----------


## spartan owl

> Excuse me but there are two pages deleted by the mods before this your post. 
> You can believe whatever you want, it's your right to do. If you want to discuss about Epir open a new thread because this is considered of topic. 
> And don't forget something very important, we are discussing about history not about the legends and mythology of ancient greeks and the new legends of neogreeks in Wikipedia.


epiros is strongly connected to the proto-greeks as the post of yetos also demonstrated, so the discussion about epirus is not off topic.
Also the religion and myths of the epirotans are part of the historical discussion particularly when they prove the national self-identification of a people.
So you decided to skip the questions again and accusing the Wikipedia to be run by Greek nationalists.
If you have something to say about proto-greeks please illuminate us.

----------


## LABERIA

> epiros is strongly connected to the proto-greeks as the post of yetos also demonstrated, so the discussion about epirus is not off topic.
> Also the religion and myths of the epirotans are part of the historical discussion particularly when they prove the national self-identification of a people.
> So you decided to skip the questions again and accusing the Wikipedia to be run by Greek nationalists.
> If you have something to say about proto-greeks please illuminate us.


Who is/are the author/s of those maps?

----------


## Diomedes

Laberia, why are you like this all time? Are you saying the opposite just to be against us? Why this behavior towards Epirus (and do not call it Epir; Epirus is the region's name in English) when you clearly understand that this region is mostly relevant to Greece than Illyria?

----------


## LABERIA

> Laberia, why are you like this all time? Are you saying the opposite just to be against us? Why this behavior towards Epirus (and do not call it Epir; Epirus is the regions name in English) when you clearly understand that this regions is mostly relevant to Greece than Illyria?


I think mods can give an answer to this your post.

----------


## Yetos

Again the same terrorist booms the place.

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

.
At least @Yetos maps confirmed *Aristotle,*  and Epirus still on the play.
By the way, I like the first map. Μy origins fell exactly, at the core of the Proto-Greeks /Achelloos Valley; Athamanian Mt.s; Thessalian Agrapha; ( Alexis Tsipras origins too... neighbourhood! -Now that turns spookie!) and Trikkala;  :Laughing: 
Interesting for me is the myth about "Athamas" as releated with the myth of Phrixos and Hellee...>> Jason and the Argonauts... etc etc. - or not...?
also
If I remember well a root of "Achel" or something like that, is a Proto- Thracian (!) which respond to the meaning "water",>> which fit well with the Achelloos river - given as the name of the God river Achelloos >>which also, with all reasons the greatest -as attested as genelal ,god river of mythology. Famous the battle with Hercules. etc 
I find that very interesting.


Aristotle is master of classification/ taxonomization Can somebody imagine other more reliable as a source!?
Undeniable.

----------


## Yetos

*Greco-Aryan Aproach*

the bellow video is from *Triantafyllides AuTh* (Thessaloniki Makedonia University)
everybody knows that the most advanced research lab in Greece is in DuTh (Thrace) (PhD Paschou)


sorry it is in Greek language
but that is why Pr Triantafyllides is more fan of Anatolian Hypothesis (Renfrew) than Kurgan (Gibutas)

Greco-Aryan connection

*min 45:05*




from than 2900 results 
found 16 HG of Ydna
and 24 of mtDNA
*11 % is very old palaiolithic population
59% is post glacial (after glacial era) 
20% is pure neolithic farmers
10 % is copper-bronze age*

----------


## Yetos

*Other IE Aproach (Myceneans and Dorians)

*the bellow video (sorry is in Greek) 
it is from *Giannopoulos* 
I mention him at post # 26
his work is prolonged by PhD of Princeton (Angelos Chaniotis)

According this Myceneans came from what I say Vucedol-Vucocar-Vatin central North Balkans
some modern call it proto Cetina 
that theory is first express 1928 by *Carl Blegen* around 3000-2000 BC (min 43:27) 
and later by Giannaras, who believed that Myceneans and Dorians were the same
But after 1980's it is clear and proved that descent of Myceneans at south Greece is around 2200 BC +- 150 years (min 18:01)
and Dorians descent is not older than 911 BC +- mistake (archailogical radiocarbon estimation)
as also we have no prove of Dorian descent farther than countable km from Doris (Δωρις-Δωριδα)
and that makes it more a local devastation, comparing the one with Myceneans (min
that is why modern believe the area surround Trikkaioi (Τρικαλα) Δωριεις Τριχακες (upper West Thessaly-South East Epiros).





*Some interesting

Παριο χρονικο Pario chronicles 
(genealogy from 1581n-264 BC) (min 21:16)

Dorian Era vs Mycenean era (20:10)

IE urheimat theories (min 32:39)

thomas Kuhn and revolutionary science
and the effort to find IE through common linguistic Archaiology mettalurgy etc.

the Lerna archaiological founds and the strange disrupt and continue of Early Helladic civilization II to Early HElladic III before the Middle Helladic (min 44:43)

The Mycenean Greece (57:33)




*

----------


## Yetos

*The Linguistic Aproach via IE revolutionary science method

*the best results on Greek and Thracian came from Georgiev and Duridanov
vladimir Georgiev estimates even notable and comparable dates via glottochronology 

by his book 
<<The Proto-Greek region included Epirus, approximately up to Αυλών in the north including Paravaia, Tymphaia, Athamania, Dolopia, Amphilochia, and Acarnania), west and north Thessaly (Hestiaiotis,, Perrhaibia, Tripolis, and Pieria), i.e. more or less the territory of contemporary northwestern Greece)>>





Another interesting view is from 
*Hooker 1976 
*the local autochthonus language
which later *2003 Renfrew* express as the Anatolian Hypothesis (neolithic farmers spoke IE)

also a new view Based on Anatolian hypothesis is by 
*Gray & Atkinson & Greenhill 2011
**according that proto-Greek first Spoken in Minor Asia- Anatolia with Tocharian and Armenian !!!!!!!!
*
(the myth of Dionysus campaign to East???)

----------


## Azzurro

> *Other IE Aproach (Myceneans and Dorians)
> 
> *the bellow video (sorry is in Greek) 
> it is from *Giannopoulos* 
> I mention him at post # 26
> his work is prolonged by PhD of Princeton (Angelos Chaniotis)
> 
> According this Myceneans came from what I say Vucedol-Vucocar-Vatin central North Balkans
> some modern call it proto Cetina 
> ...


If the Mycenaeans did come from the Vucedol-Vucocar-Vatin area then that would make one of their lineages R1b-Z2103, which makes sense and is what many people expect including myself, it would also link Proto-Greek with Proto-Armenian, in the Mathieson paper they found R1b-Z2103 in Vucedol dating to 2884-2666 BC the sample Id is I3499.

----------


## Garrick

> If the Mycenaeans did come from the Vucedol-Vucocar-Vatin area then that would make one of their lineages R1b-Z2103, which makes sense and is what many people expect including myself, it would also link Proto-Greek with Proto-Armenian, in the Mathieson paper they found R1b-Z2103 in Vucedol dating to 2884-2666 BC the sample Id is I3499.


R1b-Z2103 found in that time nothing to do with Illyrians because Illyrians emerged between 1300 BC and 1000 BC (different sources), and proto-Illyrians arrived 2000 BC in the Balkans most probably via Bosphorus. It means Vucedol culture nothing to do with Illyrians. R1b-Z2103 can be Mycenaean or maybe some proto-Thracian (for some authors R1b-Z2103 is Dacian marker) or anything else. Surely Mycenaean could be.

J2b2-L283 found in Veliki Vanik in Southern Croatia (1550 BC) can be Mycenaean too. Illyrians emerged in the earliest possible variant 1300 BC. Proto-Illyrians (they are no Illyrians, it is difference) were in Danube region.

Mycenaeans developed complex trade network in Mediterranean since 17th till 11 century BC. They trade with several counties including Italy, from south to north. They probably brought J2b2 L283 in Italy and beyond, wherever they traded. In the isle of Brach was one of Mycenaean points. We can see isle of Brach is very near location in Veliki Vanik where J2b2 L283 is found. And Brach in ancient time traded with region present days southern Dalmatia, Herzegovina.

----------


## Azzurro

> R1b-Z2103 found in that time nothing to do with Illyrians because Illyrians emerged between 1300 BC and 1000 BC (different sources), and proto-Illyrians arrived 2000 BC in the Balkans most probably via Bosphorus. It means Vucedol culture nothing to do with Illyrians. R1b-Z2103 can be Mycenaean or maybe some proto-Thracian (for some authors R1b-Z2103 is Dacian marker) or anything else. Surely Mycenaean could be.
> 
> J2b2-L283 found in Veliki Vanik in Southern Croatia (1550 BC) can be Mycenaean too. Illyrians emerged in the earliest possible variant 1300 BC. Proto-Illyrians (they are no Illyrians, it is difference) were in Danube region.
> 
> Mycenaeans developed complex trade network in Mediterranean since 17th till 11 century BC. They trade with several counties including Italy, from south to north. They probably brought J2b2 L283 in Italy and beyond, wherever they traded. In the isle of Brach was one of Mycenaean points. We can see isle of Brach is very near location in Veliki Vanik where J2b2 L283 is found. And Brach in ancient time traded with region present days southern Dalmatia, Herzegovina.


I don't think Illyrians belonged to R1b-Z2103, but rather to R1b-PF7562. There is various R1b-Z2103 lineages one lineage could be the Mycenaeans, another one can be Dacian, the earliest Armenian speakers most likely belonged to the R1b-Y4364 branch of R1b-Z2103, R1b-Y5587 branch of R1b-Z2103 is very likely Thracian in origin and R1b-A12332 also of R1b-Z2103 is likely Phrygian in origin.

I think a deeper clade test for the J2b-L283 found in Croatia would give the best answer, it can be a proto-Illyrian marker or it can be Greek, for that one we have to wait see.

----------


## Trojet

> J2b2-L283 found in Veliki Vanik in Southern Croatia (1550 BC) can be Mycenaean too. Illyrians emerged in the earliest possible variant 1300 BC. Proto-Illyrians (they are no Illyrians, it is difference) were in Danube region.
> 
> Mycenaeans developed complex trade network in Mediterranean since 17th till 11 century BC. They trade with several counties including Italy, from south to north. They probably brought J2b2 L283 in Italy and beyond, wherever they traded. In the isle of Brach was one of Mycenaean points. We can see isle of Brach is very near location in Veliki Vanik where J2b2 L283 is found. And Brach in ancient time traded with region present days southern Dalmatia, Herzegovina.


The Croatian J2b2-L283 possibly being of Mycenaean source/trader, doesn't add up to me. The sample comes from 1550 BC and it was a little boy from further inland, which indicates J2b2-L283 was in the area earlier than Myceaneans were even mentioned. Furthermore, for your theory to hold true, that would mean J2b2-L283 was one of the major markers of the Myceaneans. But yet this marker is virtually non-existent in the Greek Islands, Pontic Greeks, as well as North Africa, Anatolia (where virtually all J2b seems to be J2b1-M205). See my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 haplotypes here.
*Lastly, and more importantly, there is no Myceanean ancient DNA to date. So we don't even know if they carried any J2b2-L283 to begin with.*

On the other hand, I think J2b2-L283 mutation is too old for all subclades to be called "Illyrian" or "Proto-Illyrian". However, its main branches below J-Z2507, like J-Z1296 and J-Y15058 can be, as they are showing a Bronze Age expansion. What we also see is that the greatest *subclade diversity* of the above mentioned branches is achieved precisely in the Western Balkans.

As Azzurro mentioned raw data analysis of the Croatian J2b2-L283 sample (when available) should give us a better idea. In addition, we need more aDNA. But at the moment J2b2-L283 lineages are much likelier to be Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, than Myceanean. (Or they could in theory be both, assuming J2b2-L283, TMRCA 5900 ybp, expanded from a "neutral" zone and its lineages made it to both places).




> R1b-Z2103 found in that time nothing to do with Illyrians because Illyrians emerged between 1300 BC and 1000 BC (different sources), and proto-Illyrians arrived 2000 BC in the Balkans most probably via Bosphorus. It means Vucedol culture nothing to do with Illyrians.


EDIT: This is also premature to say. R1b-BY611, which stems from R1b-Z2103, has a TMRCA of ~3200 ybp, and it's most common in the western Balkans. Furthermore, some historians state that Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians descent from the Vucedol culture, where R1b-Z2103 was found.

----------


## Sile

> The Croatian J2b2-L283 possibly being of Mycenaean source/trader, doesn't add up to me. The sample comes from 1550 BC and it was a little boy from further inland, which indicates J2b2-L283 was in the area earlier than Myceaneans were even mentioned. Furthermore, for your theory to hold true, that would mean J2b2-L283 was one of the major markers of the Myceaneans. But yet this marker is virtually non-existent in the Greek Islands, Pontic Greeks, as well as North Africa, Anatolia (where virtually all J2b seems to be J2b1-M205). See my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 haplotypes here.
> 
> On the other hand, I think J2b2-L283 mutation is too old for all subclades to be called "Illyrian" or "Proto-Illyrian". However, its main branches below J-Z2507, like J-Z1296 and J-Y15058 can be, as they are showing a Bronze Age expansion. What we also see is that the greatest *subclade diversity* of the above mentioned branches is achieved precisely in the Western Balkans.
> 
> As Azzurro mentioned raw data analysis of the Croatian J2b2-L283 sample (when available) should give us a better idea. In addition, we need more aDNA. But at the moment J2b2-L283 lineages are much likelier to be Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, than Myceanean. (Or they could in theory be both, assuming J2b2-L283, TMRCA 5900 ybp, expanded from a "neutral" zone and its lineages made it to both places).
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: This is also premature to say. R1b-BY611, which stems from R1b-Z2103, has a TMRCA of ~3200 ybp, and it's most common in the western Balkans. Furthermore, some historians state that Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians descent from the Vucedol culture, where R1b-Z2103 was found.


You need to note that the Mycenaean culture went as far north into the Adriatic sea to Istria where Castellieri civilization is found and they being noted as coming from the sea. The first castellieri were indeed built along the Istrian coasts and present the same Megalithic appearance characterizing in the Mycenaean civilization.

----------


## Garrick

> The Croatian J2b2-L283 possibly being of Mycenaean source/trader, doesn't add up to me. The sample comes from 1550 BC and it was a little boy from further inland, which indicates J2b2-L283 was in the area earlier than Myceaneans were even mentioned. Furthermore, for your theory to hold true, that would mean J2b2-L283 was one of the major markers of the Myceaneans. But yet this marker is virtually non-existent in the Greek Islands, Pontic Greeks, as well as North Africa, Anatolia (where virtually all J2b seems to be J2b1-M205). See my analysis of Greek J2b2-L283 haplotypes here.
> 
> On the other hand, I think J2b2-L283 mutation is too old for all subclades to be called "Illyrian" or "Proto-Illyrian". However, its main branches below J-Z2507, like J-Z1296 and J-Y15058 can be, as they are showing a Bronze Age expansion. What we also see is that the greatest *subclade diversity* of the above mentioned branches is achieved precisely in the Western Balkans.
> 
> As Azzurro mentioned raw data analysis of the Croatian J2b2-L283 sample (when available) should give us a better idea. In addition, we need more aDNA. But at the moment J2b2-L283 lineages are much likelier to be Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian, than Myceanean. (Or they could in theory be both, assuming J2b2-L283, TMRCA 5900 ybp, expanded from a "neutral" zone and its lineages made it to both places).


Mycenaeans brought this haplogroup. We didn't mention Minoans or Neolithic Greeks.




> *Mycenaean J2b*
> 
> Additionally, J2b is also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Grecia). However it is almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture.


...
It doesn't matter if sample was boy or adult. Mycenaeans had children, didn't they.

...
What is fascinating is the situation of the expansion of the Greek settlements in the Mediterranean. The Greeks were genuine cosmopolitan traders who transmitted culture and surely their haplogroups. You can see all the shores of today's Albania (and much in the land) is in this image under the Greek colonies. Many Albanians today carry Greek haplogroups. The same is the situation with Italians, Spaniards, French, Egyptians, Ukrainians, Turks, etc., even the Russians!

----------


## Garrick

> EDIT: This is also premature to say. R1b-BY611, which stems from R1b-Z2103, has a TMRCA of ~3200 ybp, and it's most common in the western Balkans. Furthermore, some historians state that Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians descent from the Vucedol culture, where R1b-Z2103 was found.


R1b-Z2103 (Balkanic and Asian branch in Eupedia) is widespread in Caucasus, parts of Russia, Europe etc. In the Balkans and beyond R1b-Z2103 is associated with Thracian, especially Dacians/Free Dacians. Yes they could brought everywhere around Balkans, Italy etc. It is interesting but requires another topic, not to burden this topic.

Vucedol culture is neither proto-Illyrian nor Illyrian. Serbian scholar Bogdan Brukner thought that it was proto-Illyrian but this thinking is obsolete. Because this culture was between 3000-2200 BC. Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> R1b-Z2103 (Balkanic and Asian branch in Eupedia) is widespread in Caucasus, parts of Russia, Europe etc. In the Balkans and beyond R1b-Z2103 is associated with Thracian, especially Dacians/Free Dacians. Yes they could brought everywhere around Balkans, Italy etc. It is interesting but requires another topic, not to burden this topic.
> 
> Vucedol culture is neither proto-Illyrian nor Illyrian. Serbian scholar Bogdan Brukner thought that it was proto-Illyrian but this thinking is obsolete. Because this culture was between 3000-2200 BC. Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.


R1b-Z2103 has been found in Yamnaya culture.

----------


## IronSide

Could Thessaly be the homeland of the proto-greeks ?



From the "Coming of the Greeks" by Robert Drews, the book has its flaws (based on older research?), but I like his argument from mythology and linguistics that Thessaly was the homeland of the proto-greeks.

"The argument is based on linguistics and on the Greek myths. The latter make Thessaly something of an Hellenic cradle. Here the original Hellas was located, and it was here that Prometheus begat Deucalion, Deucalion begat Hellen, and Hellen begat Aeolus, Dorus, and Xuthus. Despite Nilsson's arguments to the contrary, it is evident that a great many myths have Thessalian connections, and that some must have originated in Thessaly"

"(for example, the Titanomachy, the battle between the Lapiths and the Centaurs, the expedition of the Argonauts). It is from Thessaly that many of the heroic genealogies proceed, and, of course, it was Thessaly's Mt. Olympus that the Greeks regarded as the home of the gods."

"Linguistic considerations are also pertinent. The differentiation of North Greek from the South Greek dialect of the Linear B tablets shows clearly enough that by 1200 B.C., Greek had for several centuries been spoken in the lands north of the "Mycenaean" zone. Perhaps one can go further. A detailed analysis of the dialectal evidence led Wyatt to the conclusion that Thessaly was linguistically the most conservative area of Greece, a residual area from which rather than to which Greek speakers moved. He therefore assumed "that the PG [ProtoGreek] world was restricted to Thessaly, though it may not have embraced all of Thessaly," and he suggested that South Greek arose when some of the Proto-Greek speakers "moved away from Thessaly and established colonies elsewhere in the south of Greece."

"There is, then, some reason to believe that the great Thessalian plain (far and away the largest plain in all of Greece) was the initial destination of the PIE speakers who came to the Greek mainland, and that from Thessaly the PIE speakers went on to subjugate the plains further to the south."

"If Thessaly was the original "home of the heroes," we would expect to find that during the Mycenaean Age there was a greater concentration of Greek speakers in Thessaly than elsewhere. Unusually good evidence to that effect comes from what is widely regarded as the earliest extant piece of Greek literature: the Catalog of the Ships, in the second book of the Iliad. In the catalog, which seems to have been composed when the geography of Mycenaean Greece was still a living memory, almost one-quarter of the Achaeans' ships (280 of 1186) come from Thessaly (in contrast, only 50 come from Attica, 40 from Euboea, 80 from Boeotia, 80 from all of Crete). We may say with some confidence that early in the Dark Age the Greeks recalled that during the Age of the Heroes, more warriors had lived in Thessaly than anywhere else
"
Fun fact: E-V13 in Greece is highest in Thessaly https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post495469

----------


## LAB

@Ironside

The city of Larissa in Thessaly was inhabited by Pelasgians ( Not Greeks linguistically )

*Herodotus*
“ἥντινα δὲ γλῶσσαν ἵεσαν οἱ Πελασγοί, οὐκ ἔχω ἀτρεκέως εἰπεῖν… ἦσαν οἱ Πελασγοὶ βάρβαρον γλῶσσαν ἱέντες”

*[What language however the Pelasgians used to speak I am not able with certainty to say… the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language]* 

*Homer*
“Ἱππόθοος δ᾽ ἄγε φῦλα Πελασγῶν ἐγχεσιμώρων
τῶν οἳ Λάρισαν ἐριβώλακα ναιετάασκον·”

*[Hypothecs from Larissa, for her soil
Far-famed, the spear-expert Pelasgians brought.]*


E-V13 is high in Thessaly, 
but it's peak is in north Albania and Kosovo, 
(less influenced from migrations than Thessaly probably) 
And according to the rules of phonology the Greek letter *TH ( θ )* in the rest IE languages is *DH ( δ )*
*TH*essaly / *DHe*ssaly - ''_dhe''_ = _earth,ground,soil,land, etc._ _Alb_
An etymology that derives from Greek authors of course but it makes sense as well.

----------


## Yetos

@ moderators,

Plz remove this stupid Albanian propaganda,

it is all mistaken,
and all he wants to provoke with just nonsenses to make impressions,
*as you will bellow it is not only stupid,
but fake, inaccurate, false, non scientific,*
just like every post he posted before in another thread,


@ LAB

stop reading science fiction bokks,
they do harm your brain,

Thessaly and Phthia is the same,

Θεσσαλια και Φθια εν και το αυτο

*Θεσσαλια = Θεσις + (Σ)Αλς*= εκει που ειναι η θαλασσα = sea area,* POSITION OF SEA*
*Φθια* = εκει που φθινει χανετε, = there were sea and dry land are lost *POSITION WHICH REDUCES
*

and Again you tell us nothing,

Only in your mind such decedence theories,



you just want to destroy every serious linguistic thread with crup book stories,

your post is like the bellow commercial of middle 1900's





You are so DUMB THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT ALBANIANS ARE PELASGIANS
A STUPID THEORY MADE BY GREEKS AT EARLY 1900's 
JUST TO BRING FRIENDSHIP AMONG 2 NATIONS.

*LOOK WHAT YOU WRITE*




> The city of Larissa in Thessaly was inhabited by Pelasgians ( Not Greeks linguistically )




*BUT DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY LARISSAS EXIST IN GREECE AND WERE WHERE THE OTHERS?

Keep smoking,
it does good not only your throat,
but your brain also

IT DOES SO GOOD TO YOUR BRAIN THAT YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE AMONG LARISSA AND LARISA

*look what you post Ignorant 




> *Homer*
> “Ἱππόθοος δ᾽ ἄγε φῦλα Πελασγῶν ἐγχεσιμώρων
> τῶν οἳ *Λάρισαν* ἐριβώλακα ναιετάασκον·”
> 
> *[Hypothecs from Larissa, for her soil
> Far-famed, the spear-expert Pelasgians brought.]*





BUT YOU ARE SO DUMB AND IGNORANT,
AND THE THEORY THAT ALBANIANS ARE PELASGIANS THAT YOU DO NOT SEE INFRONT YOUR EYE,

*THIS LARISA ΛΑΡΙΣΑΙΑ OF HOMER IS NOT IN THESSALY
BUT IN TROY  
THIS LARISA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larisa_(Troad)
*
*Ιπποθοος 
*
1) Son of Priamos King of Troy
*2) Son of Ledes a Pelasgian killed by Aias Telamonios 

So stop posting crup from your mind,
just to promote your agenda.

you become already ridiculous by mixing the Hellespontos cities, the Troyan Allies
with the Mycenean and Myrmidonean ones,

notice Ομηρου Ιλιας Iliad Β 835-845, the sentnces you used at your post 
*_Ἄσιος Ὑρτακίδης ὃν Ἀρίσβηθεν φέρον ἵπποι
αἴθωνες μεγάλοι ποταμοῦ ἄπο Σελλήεντος.
Ἱππόθοος δ’ ἄγε φῦλα Πελασγῶν ἐγχεσιμώρων 840
τῶν οἳ Λάρισαν ἐριβώλακα ναιετάασκον:
τῶν ἦρχ’ Ἱππόθοός τε Πύλαιός τ’ ὄζος Ἄρηος,
υἷε δύω Λήθοιο Πελασγοῦ Τευταμίδαο.
αὐτὰρ Θρήϊκας ἦγ’ Ἀκάμας καὶ Πείροος ἥρως_
_ὅσσους Ἑλλήσποντος ἀγάρροος ἐντὸς ἐέργει. 845
_

*These the allies of Troyans from minor area near Hellespontos,
Σελληεντος is the city of Abydos 
Larisa is Larisa of Asia minor etc etc 


PS
Gods blind the psycopath, and bring madness to those who pass the limit, insulting abuse opprobrium (υβρις) the Gods, μωρια ερχετε (stupidity comes)*
just pathetic,unable to see even your nose infront of you
*Pseudoscience, and false data is what you post many posts now,
*
*PS2 
Latin comes from Albanian
terra may also come from Albanian Dhe = terra
Oh and Baltic also comes from Albanian
-dawa also comes from Albanian Dhe = dava
offcourse Albanian is mother of all IE languages to you? Greek Latin Baltic sprung from Albanian, correct LAB?
How egoistic stance and post,
because only one Larissa exists today, you felt in your own mind hole,
but do you know how many existed in past?


@ ironside

*I think you understand the truth, and what is going on here

----------


## Angela

> @Ironside
> 
> The city of Larissa in Thessaly was inhabited by Pelasgians ( Not Greeks linguistically )
> 
> *Herodotus*
> “ἥντινα δὲ γλῶσσαν ἵεσαν οἱ Πελασγοί, οὐκ ἔχω ἀτρεκέως εἰπεῖν… ἦσαν οἱ Πελασγοὶ βάρβαρον γλῶσσαν ἱέντες”
> 
> *[What language however the Pelasgians used to speak I am not able with certainty to say… the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language]* 
> 
> ...


Pelasgian is a meaningless term. It just means pre-"Greek speaking" people of the larger area whom the Greek speakers encountered.

Thanks to the Lazaridis paper we know their genetic composition, and we also know they weren't a very big part of the mix in the resulting population.

As for the Greek speakers, the best geneticists in the world don't know yet whether they came from the steppe down the eastern side of the Balkans into Greece, or from Anatolia. It's clear, however, that they didn't come from Albania or the western side of the Balkans, so whatever point you're trying to make with linguistics is irrelevant.

Btw, you'd better not be posting from the same IP address as Labreria, or both accounts will get a lifetime ban.

----------


## LAB

@Angela

I can speak Greek language and the term Pelasgian doesn't mean such a thing, In fact.. it has not a proper explanation through ancient Greek language when we take in consideration the phonetic rules.
Here's an explanation that is made along with another pre-Hellenic term such as 'Apollon'.

Apolloni-Apallo (Ἀπέλλων)
To explain the etymology, Konda deals first with the name Pelasgos. Pelasg is the synthesis of *Pel-as-gai*, that is pel=born, as=be-is, and g=earth. A form of “as” is also “a”; “g” is the dative form of the word “ga”-“ge” which here could be the Pelasgic “de”=earth. To support this etymology, Konda indicted that in Greek dialects, “pelasg” is translated to mean “*gegenes*” which means to be born from earth, *autochthonous*. The latter could also be said, “I am born from earth” which would be the form of “A –pel-g”. To this, in later Greek was added on (ων) and forming “ Apelgon” (Απέλων). The “g” has been dropped creating “Apellon” which is easier to say. Another form of “pell” (pjell in today’s Albanian) is “poll” which appears in the name “Apollon”, translating as “am born” but essentially meaning “am born from earth.”


Some references from ancient Hellenic historians for Pelasgians

THUCYDIDES (460?-400? B.C) 
The Athenian historian Thucydides stated that before the Trojan War the lower Balkan Peninsula was not known as Hellas (Greece) but as "Pelasgicum," which explains why the eighth century poet Homer never referred to Hellenes, but rather to Danaans, Argives and Achaeans (Thu- cydides 1959, 1:3). These were all Pelasgian tribes. The legendary founder of ancient Greece or Hellas was Hellen, who is supposed to have lived in the late eighth century B.c. Thucydides also wrote that the Pelasgians once inhabited Athens and that the massive stone construction under the (4:109) citadel at Athens was Pelasgian (2:17). He clearly distinguished between the Greeks and the neighboring Epirotes, referring to the "Chaonians and other neighboring barbarians (2:68), also to a thousand "barbarians," Chaonians, besides Thesprotians and Molossians, who once aided the warriors of Corinth (2:80). 




HERODOTUS (485?-425? B c.) 
The Greek historian Herodotus was called the father of history and had a great deal to say about the Pelasgians. First, their territory. The entire territory later called Greece was first called Pelasgia (Herodotus 1942, 2:56). These Pelasgians had lived in Samothrace, the island just north of Troy, before they came to Attice (2:51). In northwestern Peloponnesus the Ionians "inhabited the land now called Achaea and were called, according to the Greek account Aegialean Pelasgi, or Pelasgi of the Sea Shore"; afterwards they were called lonians (7:94). The Islanders were a Pelasgian race who in later times took the name lonians. The Aeolians too were anciently called Pelasgians (7:95). Their language was different from Greek. The original Athenians were Pelasgians who spoke the ''barbarous'' Pelasgian language (1:57). Herodotus wrote that Pelasgians living on the island of Lemnos opposite Troy once kidnapped Hellenic women of Athens for wives,but the Athenian women created a crisis by teaching their children ''the language of Attica'' instead of that of the Pelasgian boys (6:138). Herodotus wrote that the Pelasgians spoke a language unlike that of any of their neighbors (1:57). The Pelasgians antedated the Greeks in what was later called Greece. Herodotus characterized the Hellenic Athenians as ''excessively migratory'' but stated that "the Pelasgians or Lacedaemons" had always been there (1:56). Significantly enough, he undentified the Spartans as Pelasgians rather than Greeks. The Hellenic race increased because numerous tribes of barbarians voluntarily entered their ranks (1:58). In Achaia, in northernmost Peloponnesus, the Molossians and Arcadian Pelasgians were recognized as ''distinct tribes'' (1:146). But the inhabitants of the peninsula were eventually driven from their homes by the invading Dorians, only in Arcadia did the natives remain, not being compelled to migrate (2:171) Repeatedly, Herodotus identified the Spartans as Pelasgians associating them with the drama of Troy. Argos was then preeminent above all the states which would later be known as Hellas (1:1). A series of kidnappings culminated in that of Helen of Argos (1:3), a Lacedaemo- nian girl from Sparta (1:4). During the reign of Croesus, about 550 B.c., the Pelasgian Spartans were still masters of most of Peloponnesus and "held first rank in Greece" (1:69). Herodotus noted that barbarians throughout Greece but "especially the Lacedaemonians disparaged the tradesman and onored the warrior (2:167), which again would identify the Spartan as a barbarian rather than a Greek. One fascinating expression occurred again again in Iliad, "the flowing haired Achaeans." Herodotus wrote that at the mountain pass of Thermopylae the night before meeting the Persian hordes (481 B.c.) a Persian spy had noted the Spartan warriors ceremoniously "combing their long hair." When he reported back that the enemy soldiers seemed rather effeminate, a more knowledgeable interpreter warned the Persians that , "it is their custom when they are about to hazard their lives, to adorn their heads with care.. This is the first kingdom and town in Greece, and these are the bravest men'' (7:208-9). Leonidas and his 300 Spartans fought to the very last man. The monument erected where they fell bears the inscription, "Go, stranger. and to Lacedaemon tell that here, obeying her behests, we fell'' (7:228). We shall note again and again that Greek historians and geograph ers and writers insisted on the distinction between the original Pelasgians and their rivals the Hellenic Greek newcomers. They also identified the Spartans as Pelasgians rather than Greeks. Traditional "Greek" history may be rewritten some dat, but that lies quite beyond this present work.

HoMER (EIGHTH CENTURY B.c.) 
The blind poet Homer has left us two magnificent epic poems unifying traditions passed down orally more than 500 years. His first, the Iliad, was probably composed about 750 B.c Without introduction, it plunges the reader into the camp of Achilles, who was besieging the city of Troy in northwest Asia Minor, a city which controlled the Hellespont. Gradually it is learned that Agamemnon, king of Mycenae, and his brother Menelaus ing of Sparta, had married two sisters from Sparta. Paris, son of King Priam of Troy, had abducted one of them, the beautiful Helen, wife of Menelaus. The two brothers summoned the princes of the region to join them in war against Troy. Thousands of Pelasgian warriors espoused the cause of their kinsmen and sailed to Troy. Helen's was the "face that launched a thousand ships," 1,200 according to Thucydides (1:10) The siege dragged on for ten years. In single combat Hector, oldest son of Troy's King Priam, killed Patroclus, Achilles' dearest friend. Achilles swore vengeance and killed Hector in single combat. The Iliad closes with the mourning and funeral for Hector conducted by the Trojans. Who were these heroes of the Iliad? Priam, king of Troy, was named a descendant of Dardanos (3 7:89). Dardanos was the first king of Troy, and he originally named the city Dardania (20:215-18). So Priam and his people were called Dardanians, sons and daughters of Dardanos (18:230). This Indo-European people migrated westward into Asia Minor and became closely identified with Troy (7:88), one of its gates being called the "Dardanian Gate" (5:66). The nearby strait to the Balkans became known as the Dardanelles, and still further west the Albanian region Kosova was anciently called Dardania. Listed as allies of the Trojans were the "noble Pelasgoi" (10:130), probably the same fighters called elsewhere the "rough Pelasgians from Larissa's rich plowland" (2:811-12). But strangely enough the other protagonists in this Trojan drama were also Pelasgians. The beautiful Helen, kidnapped by Paris, was actually Helen of Pelasgian Argos (2:21-22; 7:88), the wife of Menelaus, king of Pelasgian Sparta. Commander-in-chief of the expedition was Agamemnon, king of Mycenae, often associated with neighboring Argos (1:2). Serving in the army of Agamemnon were the brothers of Helen, the family originating in Lacedaemon (3:36-37, 41), the powerful Pelasgian military city also called Sparta. Then there was the legendary Achilles, king of the Myrmidons (1:61; 9:109; 18:229) in Thessaly, son of the early and great Pelasgian chieftain Peleus. The Aeolians, Ionians and Dorians are never mentioned by Homer, but the besieging troops are repeatedly addressed as Achaeans, or Argives or Danaans. Who were these? Achaea was the province on the northern border of Pelasgian Mycenae. The Argives were natives of Pelasgian Argos. Danaans were so named after Danaus, the early king of Argos. Although some Trojan allies did speak other tongues (4:49) it ears that the classic heroes both within and outside the walls of Troy were Pelasgians rather than Greeks. They all conversed readily in the same language; they venerated the same heroes; they shared the same expertise in breeding and training horses; they had the same augurs consulting the same gods; they practiced the same religious sacrifices and prayers; and they followed the same traditions and manners such as burial customs. One expressed it this way, "Homer immortalized the homogeneity of their speech and culture" (Adamidi 1903, 9). Within the walls and outside the walls, those Trojan heroes were all Pelasgians, not Greeks. 
Homer's second epic poem was the Odyssey, written somewhat later probably about 725 B.c. The Pelasgian hero Achilles had died, struck in the heel by an arrow. His son Pyrrhus Neoptolemy immediately took his place at the siege of Troy. Eventually, by the stratagem of the Trojan Horse, they captured the city and utterly destroyed it. King Priam and most of his men were killed, all the women being carried away into slavery. The legendary date for the fall of Troy was about 1184 B.c. The Odyssey narrated the ten-year wanderings of Ulysses or Odysseus, another hero of the siege, as he attempted to rejoin his family and resume his rule as king of Ithaca. This was one of the small Ionian islands of the west coast of Greece. Herodotus identified the lonians as Pelasgians (Herodotus 1942, 7:94-95). The Odyssey gives further evidence of this as it pictures Ulysses consulting the Pelasgian oracle at Dodona when he needed counsel (19:340). Furthermore his army friend King Menelaus offered to make Ulysses ruler over ''Pelasgian Argos" (4:233-38). Mentioning Pelasgian colonies on Crete, Ulysses later told his faithful wife Penelope of the "bold Pelasgi" natives, the Dorians and Achaeans, and King Minos who each ninth year consulted Jove in his sanctuary (19:201-7) Homer's seeming preoccupation with the Pelasgian origin of his heroes may well support Strabo's theorizing about the blind poet's own Pelasgian background. Certainly, scholars are agreed that although these epic poems were transmitted to us in the Greek language, the text did include many curious expressions and constructions traceable to the earlier Pelasgian language. In fact, Gounaris in his "Introduction to Indo-European" even theorized that the name Homer derived from the Pelasgian expression of compassion for a blind man: Ho imjer (o, the poor man (Liria June 1985,7) 



And thanks to Luigi Cavali Sforza we know this 
''A new treatment of the problem has been given in a still unpublished analysis (Piazza et al., but see Cavalli-Sforza, 2000 where main results are anticipated) of a set of lexical data (200 words) in 63 Indo-European languages published by Dyen et al. (1992). From a linguistic distance matrix whose elements are the fraction of words with the same lexical root for any pair of languages and its transformation to make the matrix elements proportional to time of differentiation, we were able to reconstruct a linguistic tree. The root of the tree separates Albanians from the others, with a reproducibility rate (the error in reconstructing the tree) of 71 percent. The next oldest branch is Armenian. The simplest interpretation is that the language of the first migrant Anatolian farmers survives today in two direct descendants, Albanian and Armenian, which diverged from the oldest pre-Indo-European languages in different directions but remained relatively close to the point of origin.''


p.s The forum has a report button which you can use if you think I'm 'Laberia' .. :)

----------


## LAB

@ Yetos

What I'm posting are from Greek authors of 19th century and even early 20th, they are all true and easy to understand, it just needs you to speak Albanian language, I'm sure though that your grandfathers spoke Albanian - Arvanitika, it was the language of Athens & Pelopponesus ( Morea ) just 100 years ago, so you can get some advise easily i think.
Angela was curious about where Greeks came from, the answer is that they always been there, they just changed their language and the whole world is frustrated now preventing them to understand that Albanians ( 40% E-V13 in North ) and Greeks ( Of Attica - Pelopponesus - Thessalia ) are of the same origin, and spoke the same language even 100 years ago.
Otherwise how can you explain that in a village 12 miles outside of Athens the pupils and their parents did not even knew a single word of Greek language? 


simple image hosting

p.s It's just a forum and you don't have to be frustrated and angry with someone else's point of view, 
personally if i don't understand something i just read more. ;)

----------


## Yetos

> @Angela
> 
> I can speak Greek language and the term Pelasgian doesn't mean such a thing, In fact.. it has not a proper explanation through ancient Greek language when we take in consideration the phonetic rules.
> Here's an explanation that is made along with another pre-Hellenic term such as 'Apollon'.
> 
> Apolloni-Apallo (Ἀπέλλων)
> To explain the etymology, Konda deals first with the name Pelasgos. Pelasg is the synthesis of *Pel-as-gai*, that is pel=born, as=be-is, and g=earth. A form of “as” is also “a”; “g” is the dative form of the word “ga”-“ge” which here could be the Pelasgic “de”=earth. To support this etymology, Konda indicted that in Greek dialects, “pelasg” is translated to mean “*gegenes*” which means to be born from earth, *autochthonous*. The latter could also be said, “I am born from earth” which would be the form of “A –pel-g”. To this, in later Greek was added on (ων) and forming “ Apelgon” (Απέλων). The “g” has been dropped creating “Apellon” which is easier to say. Another form of “pell” (pjell in today’s Albanian) is “poll” which appears in the name “Apollon”, translating as “am born” but essentially meaning “am born from earth.”
> 
> 
> ...


*
oh boy
the man after all this crap, inaccurate, false, and lies, he posted before
he continues, with false linguistic, facultated crap,
AND HE BELIEVES HE KNOWS GREEK.*

*Just pathetic, 
just post for impression,
like some protestants, who are stuck in one word, losing the book.
only he stuck in a stupid idea, and with false linguistic he believes he can cheat us

a quote,

*Apolloni-Apallo (Ἀπέλλων)
To explain the etymology, Konda deals first with the name Pelasgos. Pelasg is the synthesis of *Pel-as-gai*, that is pel=born, as=be-is, and g=earth. A form of “as” is also “a”; “g” is the dative form of the word “ga”-“ge” which here could be the Pelasgic “de”=earth. To support this etymology, Konda indicted that in Greek dialects, “pelasg” is translated to mean “*gegenes*” which means to be born from earth, *autochthonous*. The latter could also be said, “I am born from earth” which would be the form of “A –pel-g”. To this, in later Greek was added on (ων) and forming “ Apelgon” (Απέλων). The “g” has been dropped creating “Apellon” which is easier to say. Another form of “pell” (pjell in today’s Albanian) is “poll” which appears in the name “Apollon”, translating as “am born” but essentially meaning “am born from earth.”


*and he knows Greek,

Maybe the word Pel-ma means also Born from Ma?
The stupidity continues
Πελ μα = the flat underneath of the foot, the 
Πελ αγος =a Greek word for the Flat surface of endless sea
etc etc

@LAB

I feel sorry for you,
you believe that you are a Pelasgian?
and someone wake you from your dream,
you build facultated theories, and used even false data
just to live your dream.

Your ignorance is revealed at post #48 and in many many others before,

PS
*at least decide, what are you? Illyrian or Pelasgian,
maybe for you you are all, a Hellenas Dorieus, an Illyrian, a Pelasgian,
and then come and tell us what we are.


*




 Originally Posted by LAB


 Homer's second epic poem was the Odyssey, written somewhat later probably about 725 B.c. The Pelasgian hero Achilles had died, struck in the heel by an arrow.


*
*just look where the your perverted idea has driven you

you named Achilleus the king of Myrmidones and Mycenean allies
as a Pelasgian who were ally with Troyans and enemies with Myrmidones,

so in your mind Pelasgians=Myrmidones OXYMORON
ANOTHER LIE OF YOURS LIKE IN #47

i think after this post everybody understand the role and your agenda,
and how a big Liar you Are. 

Goebels would envy you*

----------


## Angela

@LAB,
I'm a great admirer of Cavalli-Sforza, but he wasn't a linguist; he was a geneticist. He followed the Anatolian theory of the Indo-European languages proposed by Rehnquist, among others, which twenty or more years of anthropology, archaeology, and genetics have proven untenable. NONE of the Indo-European languages arrived in Europe with the Neolithic farmers. They arrived much later, along with proven migrations from the east, starting around 3000 BC. The scientific and even linguistic community has moved far beyond speculations based on statements by ancient authors who had no way of knowing anything whatsoever either about genetics or linguistics. That doesn't mean that your grouping of these languages is necessarily incorrect, only the time and perhaps the direction of their arrival.

As for your essay on the term "Pelasagian", the fact that it means "*autochthonous*" was precisely my point in saying that it referred to "pre-Greek" speakers. You're not negating my point, you're proving it.

Please read the following papers so you can bring yourself up to speed and won't be cluttering these threads with irrelevant essays on matters which have either been disproved or cannot yet be proved.

Lazaridis et al 2014:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

Gamba et al: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms6257

Haak et al 2015: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

Lazaridis et al 2016:http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

Iain Mathiesen et al 2015:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/30/135616

Olalde et al:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/30/135616

Cassidy et al:http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

Scheuenemann et al (with Johanes Krause): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5459999/

Lazaridis et al: https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ure23310_0.pdf

Btw, pressing the report button would be rather silly for me, since as a moderator the report would just come to me. :)

I will check the IP addresses, but that's not the only way to decide if someone is posting under two identities.

@Yetos,
Cut out the insults or I'll be forced to do something about it.

----------


## Yetos

@ Angela


i reveal him twice in the last hour,

just read my post the truth,

he is writing simple lies for ignorants,
and he believes that we are all idiots,
he is insulting our ability to think.

----------


## Angela

^^This is the last time I'm going to warn you. Next time you get another infraction.

Anybody who has read respectable population genetics blogs and papers for the last ten years knows nonsense when they see it. He's not convincing anyone. 

Your remedy if you think someone is posting material unsourced in academic genetics and worse, which is contradicted by science, is to clearly state so in your own post, and if it continues and may mislead newbies, your recourse is to report the post. One of the moderators will respond, as I just did. The remedy is not to start hurling insults.

----------


## Yetos

> @ Yetos
> 
> What I'm posting are from Greek authors of 19th century and even early 20th, they are all true and easy to understand, it just needs you to speak Albanian language, I'm sure though that your grandfathers spoke Albanian - Arvanitika, it was the language of Athens & Pelopponesus ( Morea ) just 100 years ago, so you can get some advise easily i think.
> Angela was curious about where Greeks came from, the answer is that they always been there, they just changed their language and the whole world is frustrated now preventing them to understand that Albanians ( 40% E-V13 in North ) and Greeks ( Of Attica - Pelopponesus - Thessalia ) are of the same origin, and spoke the same language even 100 years ago.
> Otherwise how can you explain that in a village 12 miles outside of Athens the pupils and their parents did not even knew a single word of Greek language? 
> 
> 
> simple image hosting
> 
> ...


@ Lab

This also from middle 1900,
A DOCTOR says that smoking is good for throat,
would you smoke today if a doctor from 1900 says to you is good for your throat?



or 
you would not cause today Doctors say different things?





or this




*At least look at this one*




such are your sources,


yes even RONALD REAGAN (The later president?)
Tells us that smoking is good
and must send them as gift for Christmas




I say to you start smoking
is good
Tyrone Power does, 
Ronald reagan the President of USA also say so
even doctor say so,

these are my sources from 1900's
DO YOU TRUST THEM TODAY?

----------


## LABERIA

> Btw, you'd better not be posting from the same IP address as Labreria, or both accounts will get a lifetime ban.





> @LAB,
> I will check the IP addresses, but that's not the only way to decide if someone is posting under two identities.


This is not true, but first of all is not serious, especially because you are a moderator in this forum.

----------


## blevins13

> @ Lab
> 
> This also from middle 1900,
> A DOCTOR says that smoking is good for throat,
> would you smoke today if a doctor from 1900 says to you is good for your throat?
> 
> 
> 
> or 
> ...


The ability to produce crap of this individual is amazing......and all because Albanians do not share Greek agenda that Epirus was where Porto-Greeks were formed.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Yetos

> The ability to produce crap of this individual is amazing......and all because Albanians do not share Greek agenda that Epirus was where Porto-Greeks were formed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



I do not think is the Albanians, 
especislly the high or abroad educated ones,

but certain Albanian circles,
we all know who.

----------


## LAB

Pre-Greeks ( Pelasgians ) spoke similar language with pre-Romans ( Etruscans ) as historians of that time witnessed, but even without the statements of ancient authors we know that,

-Etruscan language is written RTL (13,000+ inscriptions)
-Lemnian (Pelasgian) language is written RTL (Lemnos steele)

Both with quite similar alphabets ''pre-Greek''

Phonology of letters in ancient Greek language from Babiniotis. http://5dim-tavrou.att.sch.gr/lexiko_bambinioti.pdf
Β=*μπ / Γ=*γκ / Δ=*ντ / Ζ=*dz / Υ= germ. *ü / Χ=*kh 

Although these are not the only letters with different phonology,
Letter **Θ* was also in use from Etruscans, and when we put Albanian language in the equation of 
*''pre-Gr'' / ''pre-Latin'' / ''early-Gr'' / ''Albanian''* 
then we have some interesting results, if we take in consideration that
*
*Θ = DH or D* 
**Χ = KH 

*
-Etruscan letter *''X''* in the word Romaχ is Romakh ( *Alb. Romak*)
-Etruscan word *''ΧΙΜΘ'*' (one hundred) becomes KHIMD or KHIND ( *Alb. Qind*). 
-Etruscan word *''ΘU''* which is translated as ''Two'' from Z.Mayani and not ''One'' becomes DU (*Alb. Dy - Gr. Dyo*) Z.Mayani noticed that this word is found in more inscriptions and words starting with it, like *''ΘULUTER''* , if the meaning is ''one'' then it's not worth to mention, he linked this word with the Illyrian *''Dimalium'*' 
suggesting that Dy=2 -Mal= mountain .Alb '' Two mountains'' and so Θuluter = *Dy - lutes* which means '' Two prayers'' 
etc,etc


Same rules on pre-Greek terms such as mythology, toponyms but even words of Greek language are again interesting when Albanian is in the equation, always **Θ = dh / d* 
_Alb._ _Gr._
*Dh*eus > *Th*eos
*Dh*ea > *Th*ea
*D*eti > *Th*etis
*D*o > *Th*e 
bar*DH*e > par*TH*eno / par*TH*enon (= *White* / because of the marbles )
ema*DH*ia > ema*TH*ia 
*DH*essaly > *TH*essaly
*DH*esprotia > *TH*esprotia 
amal*DH*ia > amal*TH*ia
*D*era > *TH*ira
er*DH*a > ir*TH*a 
en*D*e > an*Th*os
*D*ra > *TH*raso
etc,etc, 

So Cavalli Sforza's method for Albanian as the oldest IE brunch should not be named wrong from those who have never studied Albanian.

@Yetos
ἢ τὰν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς - Doric
ja tan ja mbi të - Geg. Alb

----------


## blevins13

> I do not think is the Albanians, 
> especislly the high or abroad educated ones,
> 
> but certain Albanian circles,
> we all know who.


No proof.....just more crap mixed with conspiracy theories and certain circles. Albanians do not share your views....you lack proof....and let’s not forget the old saying in the Balkan “never trust a Greek” so in this context you need to provide a lot of proofs.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Yetos

> No proof.....just more crap mixed with conspiracy theories and certain circles. Albanians do not share your views....you lack proof....and let’s not forget the old saying in the Balkan “never trust a Greek” so in this context you need to provide a lot of proofs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



No need,
as you notice in the thread,
I am not the one who is saying or spreading Lies,
so all Balkans know who has Besa, and has not,

cause if you also believe that Achilles was a Pelasgian hero,
then you have no difference.

----------


## Yetos

> Pre-Greeks ( Pelasgians ) spoke similar language with pre-Romans ( Etruscans ) as historians of that time witnessed, but even without the statements of ancient authors we know that,
> 
> -Etruscan language is written RTL (13,000+ inscriptions)
> -Lemnian (Pelasgian) language is written RTL (Lemnos steele)
> 
> Both with quite similar alphabets ''pre-Greek''
> 
> Phonology of letters in ancient Greek language from Babiniotis. http://5dim-tavrou.att.sch.gr/lexiko_bambinioti.pdf
> Β=*μπ / Γ=*γκ / Δ=*ντ / Ζ=*dz / Υ= germ. *ü / Χ=*kh 
> ...



Lab
*
YOU ARE SO IGNORANT*
THAT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE AMONG IE AND ETRUSCAN

ALL THAT READ YOUR POST UNDERSTAND YOUR STUPIDITY

KEEP MAKING YOUR SHELF RIDICULOUS 
BY POSTING SUCH EVIDENCES OF YOUR OWN WILL
THAT THINGS SHOULD BE.

Goebels would envy you

*cause NEITHER ΘΕΟΣ NEITHER ΔΙΑΣ NEITHER DIO
Are Pelasgian words,
BUT IE,*

*As for Dheus
Do Not pass us as stupid, Albanian God is Zog*
*
and I report to moderators that you keep spaming stupidities, 
and have an agenda,


BUT WHAT CAN SOMEONE EXPECT 
FROM ONE WHO DOES NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AMONG LARISSA Thessaly and LARISA Troados
the one who can not understand the Difference among York in Britain, and new York in America.

or from one who baptise 3000 years Achilles after as Pelasgian,
Forgeting that he was a Myrmidon, for 3000 years,

what morality and besa this man have?
simply None,*

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## blevins13

> No need,
> as you notice in the thread,
> I am not the one who is saying or spreading Lies,
> so all Balkans know who has Besa, and has not,
> 
> cause if you also believe that Achilles was a Pelasgian hero,
> then you have no difference.


Topic where proto-Greeks form... Epirus or else??? This is the questions....Achilles and the rest is not under question here.....don’t change the subject.....if you have proof share....


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## IronSide

Soooo .. do you guys think proto-Greek emerged in Thessaly ?

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## Yetos

> Topic where proto-Greeks form... Epirus or else??? This is the questions....Achilles and the rest is not under question here.....don’t change the subject.....if you have proof share....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Blevins

I am not changing subject, and not push,

you understand exactly,

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## Yetos

> Soooo .. do you guys think proto-Greek emerged in Thessaly ?



Ironside,

Lake Lychnitis,
modern Ohrida,

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## blevins13

> Blevins
> 
> I am not changing subject, and not push,
> 
> you understand exactly,


Nothing more to say here....you make insults to Albanian for not sharing your views about whereabouts formation of proto Greeks, I get infracted....go figure???


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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## Yetos

> Nothing more to say here....you make insults to Albanian for not sharing your views about whereabouts formation of proto Greeks, I get infracted....go figure???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Blevins,

If you have scientific and correct evidences,
no need,

if you have crap, facultated, and stupid cheap tricks,
then you will be always insulted,

sience without virtue,
it is a sophisticated HOAX
and LAB is a charlatan,

Besides
he only proves that Albanian language is foreign to South Balkans,

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## blevins13

Angela deal with this individual, he does not stop insulting Albanian member in this forum....just because they do not buy his theories that proto-Greeks were formed in Epirus. The person that presents a theory as a fact without any prove is a charlatan.....


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## LAB

On the post below there is a statement saying that if someone wants to argue that Albanian can be linked with Etruscan we have to demonstrate the change of *D , DH > Θ**.
*https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post370714
This change can be traced easily in words which are coming from pre-Greek language ( Pelasgian )
Etruscans and Pelasgians spoke similar languages as historians mentioned, with similar alphabets and both wrote RTL. 

That means words are found in Greek language today including letter Θ can be replaced with D or DH.
One of these words is the toponym of Emathia ( Ημαθια )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emathia 

 

Emathia & Epirus , two toponyms found next to each other explained by the same method through Albanian language always considering that the greek Θ can become D or DH.

_emathia_ > emadhia / e Madhia = *of the Great*  ( land )
_epirus_  > epiros / e Piros = _of Piros_  ( land ) 

Something that is quite logic when we notice that Alexander the great during his journey eastwards found many cities and he named them by his own name, Alexandroupolis in Greece, Alexandria in Egypt and many others, so the use of their names to the territories they ruled it must have been something to show who had authority in those lands. Piro of Epirus had family bonds with Alexander so he followed the same way by naming his territory by his name. Hence *Emathia* & *Epirus*.
In the 15th century AD the Albanian national hero Gjergj Kastrioti was entitled as *King of Epirus* & *Prince of Emathia*, they also say that Ottomans named him Iskander Bey ( Alexander the Great ) because they believed that the real Alexander was of Illyrian origin rather than Greek.

With few words.. if greeks want to argue that their language originates either in Epirus or Emathia then they must be ready to accept that their language and furthermore the term 'Ελλην' are somehow coming from the language that originally named those territories.

p.s 
The greek aspect is that Epirus = endless ( απειρος ) and Emathia = sandy land ( from PIE *samadh ). 
You choose what to believe.

----------


## Yetos

> On the post below there is a statement saying that if someone wants to argue that Albanian can be linked with Etruscan we have to demonstrate the change of *D , DH > Θ**.
> *https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post370714
> This change can be traced easily in words which are coming from pre-Greek language ( Pelasgian )
> Etruscans and Pelasgians spoke similar languages as historians mentioned, with similar alphabets and both wrote RTL. 
> 
> That means words are found in Greek language today including letter Θ can be replaced with D or DH.
> One of these words is the toponym of Emathia ( Ημαθια )
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emathia 
> 
> ...



and the madness, 
call me paranoia 
continues,

what conection has this 




*ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ 

**With this* *

ΠΥΡΡΟΣ

**
Only Paranoia* can explain



*Απειρωταν not E Πυρρος 

*

ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ APEIROTAN






ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ APEIROTAN


*PS

*
really wonder what connection has Epeiros HΠειρος *Apeiros* in their dialect, which also means *Chaonia*, Chaos land, eternal land
with Πυρρος *Pyrros* which means fire- *Firehaired*, 
 :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking: 


Oh I founded, 
in some peoples mind Epiros comes Pyrrha Πυρρα And Δευκαλιων Deucalion  :Grin:

----------


## tivali

I think mods can give an answer to this your post.

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## LAB

@Yetow 

Yes ancient coins with ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ on them, do you understand what does that word means? 
The official etymology in Greece is ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ = απειρος χωρα ( endless land ) 
So that means that the word is composed from 2 words ΑΠΕΙΡΟ ( endless ) + TAN ( land ).
So the Doric word '*Tan*' means '*land*' in this case.. 

But you give a different explanation for the quotes below where the word is considered as the modern fem. article 'Την' 
*ἢ τάν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς > ( ταν = την )

δῶς μοι πᾶ στῶ καὶ τάν γᾶν κινάσω ( ταν = την )
*
This author writes about the Illyrian origin of Spartans,*
The passing of the great race; or, The racial basis of European history. 4th rev. ed., with a documentary supplement, with prefaces by Henry Fairfield Osborn
by Grant, Madison, 1865-1937; Osborn, Henry Fairfield, 1857-1935
**https://archive.org/details/passingofgreatra00granuoft
*He links the Doric/Spartan word 'Ταν' with the word 'Tan' of Geg. Albanian. 
And the meaning of the above quotes gain a slightly different meaning from what you give.*

*f.e 
'' _Η ταν η επι τας_ '' - Doric 
'' _Ja tan ja mbi të_ '' - Albanian .geg *

*The exact meaning through Alb. is *
ja tan = ''or whole'' 
*( we understand that this had to do with leaving the battle without any body parts being cut off, arms,legs or even big cuts from a sword
that would result in slow death from the non-existence of doctors and medicine..no injuries = whole/intact )*
ja mbi të = ''or on top of it '' 
*( on top of it means ''dead'' it's almost the same with the greek '' επι αυτης '' and it has to do with burial methods )*

*So the expression means *'' Or whole or dead '' ,* they preferred death rather than surviving with big injuries ( slow and painful death ) , and it is more logic than the greek explanation which makes no sense at all, only because you translate the Doric word 'Tan' as article.*

*In the 2nd quote ' *Ταν Γαν* ' means exactly '' *the whole earth* '' and not '' -the earth- '' 
_Doric >>>>>_ Γα ------ Γα*Ν* -------- Ταν Γα*N* 

_new Gr_. >>>> Γη ------ την Γη ---- ολη την Γη

_Alb_  - >>>>>> Dhe -----Dheu*N* --- Tan Dheu*N

*

----------


## Yetos

@ LAB

*you are stuck with a stupid idea.
*



Ή ΤΑΝ ¨Η ΕΠΙ ΤΑΣ,
*
means with her(Shield), or above her*
above shield,
cause heroes-Honored by fellow warriors when they carry them above their shield,

Doric had strong A
cause comes from NW Greek dialects

see Athena Αθηνα

Κοινη *Koine*
*AΘηνα Athena* and article THN ΤΗΣ (ΟΥ-ΤΗΝ, Αυ-ΤΗΣ)

*ΝW Greek*, Doric
*ΑΘΑΝΑ Athana* And article TAN ΤΑΣ (OΥ-ΤΑΝ Αυ-ΤΑΣ)

*Ατtic Ionian*
*ΑΘΗΝΗ Athene* Article THN ΤΗΣ 


the rest are crap.
a co-insidence of sound simmilarity
that in the brain of some show something


as for the second,
*καὶ τὰν γᾶν κινάσω

Doric 
και ταν Γαν κινασω

Koine 
και την ΓΗΝ κινησω

*so what are you talking about? hunting a ghost is called obsession with a ghost !!!!!!!
*
ps
you have just make a simple common, ordinary dialect diference.
to what?
*A facultate stupidity, to a stupid idea,
I wish you to find peace,
cause all your life you will hunt a ghost,
that never existed*

@Lab
σκληρον σοι προς κεντρα λακτιζει

*so if it was*
σκληρα σοι προς κεντρα λακτιζειν 
*or*
σκληρον σοι προς κεντρον λακτιειν

which is the Albanian part?


female article κοινε
H
ΤΗΣ 
ΤΗ
ΤΗΝ
Ω 

In primitive Doric NW Greek 
A
TΑΡ
ΤΑΣ
ΤΑΝ
Ω

what Albanian 'ja Tan'?
more simple archaic Greek can not be,



WATCH

*koine*
ΗΠΕΙΡΩΤΩΝ

*NW GREEK *
ΑΠΕΙΡΩΤΑΝ

*early Doric*
Απειρωτων

*simple Greek dialectal differences.*
the rest are crap from obsession
your obsession

See your post #71 
and tell us what common has Απειρωταν with ΠΥΡΡΟΣ
ΝΟΝΕ, 
but you post crap, just to make impressions,


Pathetic,
I believe the rest Albanian forum members do not share your obsession,


PS2
*For your Information
the Celtic Gaulish shield maker is* taneur tanner etc
maybe tan and shield is the same?
and Spartan women were Gauloises!!! 

*bah stypidity is endless

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## Angela

That's it.

Thread is closed.

----------

