# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

## DejaVu

Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

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## Itas Argis

Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs. 

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs. 
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are *facts.*

There exist few hypotheses. 
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes. 
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"*Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"*
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801 

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

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## iapodos

> Greetings,
> for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:
> 
> 1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI
> 
> 2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml
> 
> Now,
> It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs. 
> ...


Good morning.

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## Shetop

> A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
> Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.


The member "how yes now" wrote about Serbs colonizing Iberia and Northwest Africa. This kind of imagination can be interesting only to those who consider history just one more fairy tale. And this is were you have the point - people do enjoy reading fairy tales.

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## Mzungu mchagga

> Greetings,
> for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:
> 
> 1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI
> 
> 2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml
> 
> Now,
> It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs. 
> ...


looool 
'how yes no', is it you??  :Laughing:

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## how yes no 2

> looool 
> 'how yes no', is it you??


nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia






> Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs. 
> But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are *facts.*


 Serbs DNA is same as in other Slavs dominantly determined by R1a and I2a2, just ratio of I2a2 and R1a is opposite, which indicates that tyhey were among I2a2 contributers in Slavic people...

As for language, I believe that Slavic language origin from Serbs






> A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
> Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
> And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.


I do wonder how can someone say "don't hesitate to ask" instead of me... perhaps idea is to discredit my writing by taking identity that everyone will think is me.... I guess that little Croat boy think he is very smart....

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## iapodos

> nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia


You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
Let it be consolation to you.

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## how yes no 2

> You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
> Let it be consolation to you.


yes, well I did propose some quite exotic ideas.... e.g. relation to sea peoples...

there are two things to distinguish: 
one is Serb tribal name that seems to be very old and have passed mostly among I haplogroup tribes in different shapes (as in Swedes, Suebi, Sorbs, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians... also possible matches Scordisci, Serdi...)
and second is actual ancestors of Serbs of today.... 

e.g. Pasthun Sarbans matching Seneca's arc of Serians from northwest China to India, coupled with name Sarbans used for Serbs by some Byzantine historians, and with Pastun Sarbans carrying clear mark of haplogroup I in non haplogroup I part of Asia, made me conclude that proto-Serbs are offspring of Serians mentioned by Seneca...

but according to
"Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with
nearby regions - Khaled K Abu-Amero*1, Ali Hellani2, Ana M González3, Jose M Larruga3,Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4"
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen (where one would expect offspring of Serians of Red sea) and that haplogroup I in Pastun Sarbans is I* and not I2a2

which indicates the direction of spread of haplogroup I, was probably from Persia to several branches: arc of Seres, Asia minor and Caucasus...and from last two directions to Europe... amazing is that tribal name for so distantly related people is preserved....

I still think that proto-Serbs origin from Serians of Europe, just their link to Serians of Red sea, and to Serians of arc from Serica in northwest China to India is much earlier in time than I have guessed...as being of haplogroup I* makes Serians of Asia very distantly related people with same tribal name....

sea peoples Sherden (after whom the lake in Egypt carries name Serbonian bog / Serbonis/Sirbonis) are most likely related to either Sardinians or Serians of Red sea... and their relation to proto-Serbs of Balkan is very distant...

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## iapodos

> it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen


Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...

And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!

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## how yes no 2

> Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...
> And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!


hey, don't joke... :)

idea I had is that Serians of Red sea (Sabeans/Sheba) were offspring of more northern Serians who settled coasts of Red sea during sea peoples invasion (Sherden whose name resulted in Serbonian bog toponym in Egypt)...
but since quoted work indicates that there is no haplogroup I in Arabian peninsula, either this is wrong theory, or they didnot leave much offspring, or sampling didnot catch area where they offspring lives...

a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I.... besides it is even possible that Arab tribal name might be derived from same root with losing 'S' in the beginning of the word...

if tribal name related to Serbs is really ancient old, than it is not really good marker for explaining more recent history of Serbs.....


anyway, I will try later to summarize the part of ideas about more recent origin of Serbs of Balkan that seems to hold well...

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## iapodos

> hey, don't joke... :)
> 
> 
> 
> a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I....


If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A. 
What to say, unless: Bon voyage!

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## how yes no 2

> If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A. 
> What to say, unless: Bon voyage!


that is exactly the point I am making now....

if tribal name has ancient old origin (as in carried by some of IJ peoples), than it makes no sense to use it to reconstruct more recent history of Balkan Serbs whose I2a2 members are just a small leaf on that tree of people who originates from IJ....

so, we should follow first known historical mention of Serbs and try to go a bit backwards from there... e.g. towards link between Slavs (Sloveni) and Veneti...

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## Mzungu mchagga

or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k  :Wink:

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## how yes no 2

> or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k


nope, maybe related to proto-Croats or Khorasan /Khwarezm  :Rolleyes: 

don't spam here.... it's not funny..

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## DejaVu

*Serbia
*I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

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## Garrick

> *Serbia*
> I1 6,5%
> I2a 34,5%
> I2b 0,5%
> R1a 15%
> R1b 7%
> G2a 1,5%
> J2 6,5%
> J1 0,5%
> ...


DejaVu

I told you that there is new researching for Serbia, Mirabal et al (2010):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

Serbia 

I2a2 38,5%
I1 7,8% 
I2b1 1.67%

R1a 14,5%
R1b 4,5%

E1b1b1 17,3%

J1 0.6%
J2a 3.3%
J2b 1.7%

G2a 2,2% 

(You can see, total I in Serbia is 47,97%.)

And I will show that Macedonians (FYROM) are the closest with Serbs according to the analysis.

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## DejaVu

*Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA* 

Continue posting about that, rest is irrelevant.

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## Garrick

DejaVu
One part I already wrote on another topic but as a prelude to the final image. 

You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia. 

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html

Labels are as follows:

GRE: Greece
SER: Serbia
SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
HER: Herzegovina
BOS: Bosnia
ALB: Albania
KAL: Kosovo Albanians
SLO: Slovenia
CRO: Croatia
UKR: Ukraine
TUR: Turkey
HUN: Hungary
ROM: Romania
ITA: Italy

You can see his results on map.



I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

The differences are as follows:

SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia.


In the original Dieckens paper Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

Today it is fashionable to declare themselves and look for some non-existent roots away from Serbia because it is such a policy, and OK, all this is somewhat understandable.

But science is immune to man-made efforts to make someone other than who is, so sooner or later everything comes everything falls into right place.

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## DejaVu

*CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.*

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

*Serbia* *89.8%?* 
*Macedonia 79.8%?*
*You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?* 


*The original from Mirabal 2010* 
http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index....l_et_al._(2010)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/abstract

Serbia
*I2a* 38.54%
*R1b* 4.5%
*R1a* 14.5%
*E1b1b* 17.3%


*The original from Pericic 2005*
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg

*ALL THE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE MACEDONIANS, ARE FROM ETHNIC MACEDONIANS AND SAME FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE.*
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full


*Y-DNA haplogroups in European populations*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
*"I have decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations. Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."*

*GARRICK, ARE YOU CLAIMING HAPLOGROUP I2A2 OR ANY KIND OF HAPLOGROUP I AS SERBIAN?*
*WHERE DID YOU GET THE GENETIC STATISTICS?*
*CAN YOU LINK THE SOURCE TO PERICIC 2005 AND MIRABAL 2010?*

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## Garrick

> CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.


DejaVu
All the information I have given are completely true that everyone can check.

Pericic et al

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

Page 4

Macedonian
IE BaltoSlavic
R1b 5,1%
R1a 15,2%
I2a2 29,1 %
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 6,3%

You can see Dieckens analysis (2005) based on data Pericic et al and other relevant research at the time:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html



After that there were other research I cited the differences.

Probably you are confused about the Mirabal et al (2010) where is the rest of the data.

Because I have a whole article; on the Internet is only available part.

But you can look at the topics were given the results

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689&page=4

DejaVu
Many people in Macedonia FYROM (I am quite often in Skopje) know that the Serbs and Macedonians FYROM are close peoples.

And trust me, when they hear someone speaks Serbian exactly see them to cheer.

The problem is not people but politics.

The politics is that of the Slavic Macedonians asked to renounce who they are and to embrace what you have never been, history of other nations, and this is what nature can not last forever, and you will see a time will come when you and I will run a lot constructive discussions.


And as far as I haplogroups in the Balkans, I have never written that it is only Serbian.

Peak is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia is the second and third in percentage is Croatia and I was giving this information in the other topic, if you want I can repeat.

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## DejaVu

*WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?*

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

*Serbia* *89.8%?* 
*Macedonia 79.8%?*
*You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?* 




*AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.*

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

*Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)*

*I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%*
*I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%*
*R1a 14,5_________15,2%*
*R1b 4,5%_________5,1%*
*E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%*
*J2 5,6%____________12,7%*
*G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%*
*N 3,3% _______________ 0%*
*L 0,6% _______________ 0%* 

*Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs*
*Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

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## Garrick

> *WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?*
> 
> Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)
> 
> Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)
> 
> I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
> I1 7,8% __________ No data
> R1a 14,5_________15,2%
> ...


DejaVu
Even better, you added missed.

And *is there any difference*?

Of course that does not exist and it is true that the *Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.*

Probably *you not carefully read Dieckens analysis*.

Dieckens
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
"Currently, *I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations*."

Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


DejaVu
You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the *key issues*.

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## DejaVu

*PAGE 4: Summarized Percent Frequencies of R1b, R1a, I1b* (xM26), E3b1 and J2e.*
*Where is the rest of the haplogroups?*




> *why do you post fake results? Are you blind?*
> 
> serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)
> 
> serbia and macedonia (fyrom)
> 
> i2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
> i1 7,8% __________ no data
> r1a 14,5_________15,2%
> ...


*The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?* 
*ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?*

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## DejaVu

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
"Currently, *I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations*."

*Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
_Sklavinia(i)_ (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: _SCLAVINIAE_) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name _Sclaveni_, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The _Sclaviniae_ of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:
The *Serbs* became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (_hypekooi_) and eventually became independent.The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of *Bulgarians*.The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi and Antes. Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor. Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a _Macedonian Sclavinia_. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (_Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns_).
*In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').*

*The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)*



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
*Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,* like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
*Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...* 

*But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?*

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## DejaVu

*Serbian history*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs
*White Serbia* or *Bojka* (Serbian: _Белa Србиja_; Archaic: _Бојка_, Greek: Boiki), is the mythical homeland of the ancestors of the *Serbs*, of the *White Serbs* (Serbian: Бели Срби, Beli Srbi).
The area adjacent to White Serbia was known as White Croatia, where the Croats trace their origin. White Serbia and its ethnic designates, the White Serbs, could be interpreted through attributes such as "the unbaptized" or "pagan" (Pre- Christian), according to the _De administrando imperio_.



The term White Serbia (_Bela Srbija_) is connected with that of _Belarus_ (White Rus), in this case it may refer to it being an unbaptized land, in relation to the Serbs of the Balkans who were Christian.
Bojka, (Boiki, derived from the Proto-Slavic *bojь. = _battle, war, fight_) may be connected with the ethnographic group of Ukrainians, the Boyko, and the Celtic tribe of Boii, who in the 2nd century BC dwelled around the Danube.
The White Serbs formed Rascia.






*The location of White Serbia has been disputed. It has been described as:*
north of the Danube and the Carpathiansthe modern Czech Republic
Bohemiabetween the Elbe and Saale RiversPolandRed RutheniaRügen, Svantevit's island in northern Germany.Lusatia, triangle of Germany, Czech republic and Poland. 

*Early Serb state during the reign of Zhupan Vlastimir, c. 840 AD*


*House of Vlastimirović*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...timirovi%C4%87

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## Beast

> source?
> 
> only source that speaks in details about the settlement of Slavs on Balkan is De administrando imperio... it says that they have settled desolated lands...
> and it speaks of Serbs and Croats not of Slavs in general...
> 
> 
> Haplogroup E comes from assimilated Tribali and Dardanians...
> 
> part of it was already absorbed by Scordisci....
> ...


Lol. As I've learned, Dalmatians and Liburnians, who you are calling 'Dinaric and 'Illyrian' were not really Illyrians.. Illyrians were a tribe from todays Albania that came in contact with the Greeks, but the Greeks started using the world Ilirian to all people from the North-Balkans. So how can you call these people 'Illyrians' when they been questioned by historians to of not been illirians.

Dardanians were Ilirians mixed with Thracian.

I think it explains why Kosovar Albanians differ a little bit from Albanians and Greeks.

And you saying 'South SLavs are a Dinaric race like (illirians) (Dalmatians).. ok so you are saying south Slavs have lived so long in the Balkans that they adopted to the area? If South Slavs are not native to Balkans and if they are Sarmatians then there is no 'Dinaric race'.... And Albanians are Dinaric.. you saying Albanians medditerrean? haha.. I see just as much dark Bosnians and Albanians. Most Kosovar Albanians I see are tall, either brown/tanned or white, same with Bosnians. 

And Albanians do wage war against each other.. blood feuds are pretty common in Albania, but not civil wars, and there are places in Albania where the government has no control, for example Tropoje is run by bandits. and is a no go area for tourists.

And you are tring to link the name Scordisci and Serdi with Srbin... at the same time as Scordisci existed there was the Sarmatian tribe Serboi that existed, I think enough historical evidence shows Sarmatians immigrating to europe, including this Serboi tribe, to Poland, where the name Serboi is still carried, but the Serboi there were Polanized/Czechnized while the Serbs moved to Balkans. And I think this connects more.

I could also be linking Scordisci name with Scupi (Skopje/Shkupi) or Scodra (Shkodra)

And can you show me where Illyrian words match more Croat-Serb than Albanian?

----------


## how yes no 3

there is a thing about this kind of topic... everyone (including me) sees what he wants to see.....
thing is there is just not enough credible facts, so we can go around forever with various theories, which is what I did a lot often replacing some relevant ideas, discarding them and than coming back to them...
in essence, in this area it is hard to make some discovery without lot of guessing, and lot of guessing easily leads to fantasy 
so, perhaps you guys are right, perhaps i am right at least in some points....

i think i am completely done with this kind of topics......

hopefully in future historians will get education in genetics and be able to show us some link between genetic databases and movements of people known to history....

----------


## Gosh

@how yes no 3

although your posts are always full of imagination, I always respected your enthusiasm. You found so many interesting maps :)

----------


## Eldritch

> What are you talking about?
> 
> None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina. 
> 
> 1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.
> 
> 2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia.
> 
> 3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a. 
> ...


It's a proof that I2a1b expanded from present day Moldova so your answer doesn't hold any value.

----------


## Vedun

" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
_Sklavinia(i)_ (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: _SCLAVINIAE_) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name _Sclaveni_, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The _Sclaviniae_ of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations"

Sclaveni was a name for Slovenes and Slovaks only. From this term derives later term for all Slavs (invented in 19th century).

----------


## noUseForAname

Hi Garrick,

You have mentioned in the previous Thread (see 1. 2. And 3.) 
I Can *conclude* from the current and recent studies that your references are *OLD or OBSOLETE*.

*1.* E-V13 in the Balkans is between 2000 and 2700 BC, and E carriers came in the Balkans state between 4000 and 4700 year ago.
As you can see (see references below) from recent haplogroups distribution Haplogroup *E-V13* (which was already in Balkans) is 10,000 YBP and *E1b* (which was already in Balkans) is 42,000 YBP. *So you are 10th of thousands of years behind.*
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

*2.*You mentioned Haplogroup I is 25,000 YBP (that is Correct), then mentioned "*the ancestors of today's I carrier in the Balkans, Bosnians, Serbs and others, were in the Balkans even before 25,000 years*" (That is *FALCE*) because haplogroup I in todays Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia comprises of only *1%-2%* (see reference below)
*however*, haplogroup I2a1 which is 8,000 YBP is comprised by todays Bosnia with over 50%, Croatia 37%, and Serbia 33%
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I_mtDNA.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

*3.* Then you mentioned "R1a came to the Balkans Thousands of years before E carriers if you read Klyosov" (*FALCE AGAIN*)
R1a is 23,000 YBP (see reference) and E1b (already in todays Balkans) is 42,000 YBP
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

You mentioned that you are a researcher, may i ask what kind of researcher are you?
I believe that real researchers and schoolars/scientists are *TRANSPARENT* (not one sided) and that they dont come up with several *CONCLUSIONS* in just one short text

----------


## hrvat22

Deleted
Demining of Serbs.

----------


## hrvat22

From the Croats, who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyria (Illurikon) and Pannonia (Pannonian) De administrando imperio,Konstantin VII. Porfirogenet 10. century






In the book Curse of the nation (2004) Prokletstvo nacija, Serbian scientists Milos Bogdanovic clearly states that in more than half skeleton in the medieval capital of Serbia, is determined gene for blood type B which is Hunnic and Avar origin ..








List of Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács in 1526


in the village Ras southern Serbia or heart of Serbia is mentioned soldiers under the names Anadoli for Turks, Bosna for Muslims or today Bosniaks and Hrvat for today Croatians.. Serbians are not there ....




Serbian historian on Serbian television clearly indicates that the Serbian rebels in the second Serbian rebellion 1815 did not know of the term serbia ....










Genetics clearly shows that carriers so-called Dinaric gene I2a1b1 which today has the Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Serbs, originates from southern Poland areas of the Vistula River historic center of White Croatians.....


But the Croats at that time lived behind Bagibareje, where they are now Bjelohrvati (Belohrobatoi) White Croatia... They are separated one genus of five brothers, Kloukas, lobelos, Koseniz, Mouh and Hrobatos and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, and came with his people in Dalmatia...
De administrando imperio,Konstantin VII. Porfirogenet 10. century

----------


## hrvat22

> Deleted
> Demining of Serbs.






It was written by Constantine VII. Porphyrogenitus in the 10th century, Byzantine Emperor ... I guess he was not ultranationalist ...... I came to Eupedia show you the truth, and present the only authentic records that consider all historians in Europe and directly regards genetics of the medieval Serbs ...... For this reason i am asking moderator to return my post and allow speech of truth ......greetings from Croatia

----------


## hrvat22

De Administrando Imperio ("On the management of the Empire") is the Latin name of the Greek work written in the 10th century Eastern Roman emperor Constantine VII.

----------


## LeBrok

> It was written by Constantine VII. Porphyrogenitus in the 10th century, Byzantine Emperor ... I guess he was not ultranationalist ...... I came to Eupedia show you the truth, and present the only authentic records that consider all historians in Europe and directly regards genetics of the medieval Serbs ...... For this reason i am asking moderator to return my post and allow speech of truth ......greetings from Croatia


It wasn't about Constantine but your interpretation of ancient records with strong only one intentions to attack Serbs. This is not going to fly here.

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## hrvat22

> It wasn't about Constantine but your interpretation of ancient records with strong only one intentions to attack Serbs. This is not going to fly here.



Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...

This is not written in any document on the globe and is allowed on this forum ....around Vistula is documented white Croatia....


De administrando imperio, 'white Serbia' borders state of Franks on west and 'white Croatia'

White Serbia does not exist....there is not a single document in the world that mentions white serbia...

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## LeBrok

> Serbs came to Balkan from area of Bohemia/Bavaria... question is where they came from to that area....likely guess is from area north of northwest Carpathians... which fits well with birth place of Slavs around Vistula...


 Perhaps so, however autosomal DNA of Serbs points to the fact that most of their genome belongs to Balkan genetic continuity since Neolithic. Slavs came but they didn't replaced locals, they mixed with them extensively.




> This is not written in any document on the globe and is allowed on this forum ....around Vistula is documented white Croatia....


 Are you sure it is documented? There are no pre 19th century documents pointing to location of White Croats upper Visual, Krakow area (where some people point to it). The name became popularized by Austro-Hungarians occupation of Krakow area, sort of inventing new nationality, just not to say Polish.

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## hrvat22

> Perhaps so, however autosomal DNA of Serbs points to the fact that most of their genome belongs to Balkan genetic continuity since Neolithic. Slavs came but they didn't replaced locals, they mixed with them extensively.
> 
> [/COLOR] Are you sure it is documented? There are no pre 19th century documents pointing to location of White Croats upper Visual, Krakow area (where some people point to it). The name became popularized by Austro-Hungarians occupation of Krakow area, sort of inventing new nationality, just not to say Polish.



Wikipedia is full of white Croatia and white Croats ......when are people from Poland enter in the United States a hundred years ago, about 100,000 Poles from the area of Krakow declared themselves as white Croats....in this area and and southwestern Ukraine originates dinaric gene which is in Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins ..... it proves that they are Croatian origin ...


tipe... White Croats in Ukraine and their archaeological site Stiljsko near the city of Lviv

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## hrvat22

> Perhaps so, however autosomal DNA of Serbs points to the fact that most of their genome belongs to Balkan genetic continuity since Neolithic. Slavs came but they didn't replaced locals, they mixed with them extensively.
> 
> [/COLOR] Are you sure it is documented? There are no pre 19th century documents pointing to location of White Croats upper Visual, Krakow area (where some people point to it). The name became popularized by Austro-Hungarians occupation of Krakow area, sort of inventing new nationality, just not to say Polish.


I2a1b1 haplotype is very young ... old about two thousand years ago, it was determine by Ken Nordtvedt who specializes in haplogroup I2a....

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## Aberdeen

The difference between Serbs and Croats can be summarized as follows.

1) Serbs are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Serbs are members of the Orthodox branch of christianity. Serbs generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Croats.

2) Croats are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Croats are members of the Catholic branch of christianity. Croats generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Serbs.

The most bitter quarrels you will ever see are quarrels between brothers who have become estranged.

----------


## hrvat22

> The difference between Serbs and Croats can be summarized as follows.
> 
> 1) Serbs are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Serbs are members of the Orthodox branch of christianity. Serbs generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Croats.
> 
> 2) Croats are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Croats are members of the Catholic branch of christianity. Croats generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Serbs.
> 
> The most bitter quarrels you will ever see are quarrels between brothers who have become estranged.



I2a1b1 haplotype is very young ... old about two thousand years ago, it was determine by Ken Nordtvedt who specializes in haplogroup I2a.... :Thinking: 

source of the same haplotype is in the southern Poland far away from the Balkans and in the Croats and others is about 45 percent...

You probably talking about E1b haplogroup but she was among the Croats only 10 percent

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## LeBrok

> I2a1b1 haplotype is very young ... old about two thousand years ago, it was determine by Ken Nordtvedt who specializes in haplogroup I2a....


Yes it is, but this is Y chromosome and it constitutes only around 2% of total genome. You better check autosomal DNA of Serbs which is remaining 98% of DNA.

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## LeBrok

> Wikipedia is full of white Croatia and white Croats ......when are people from Poland enter in the United States a hundred years ago, about 100,000 Poles from the area of Krakow declared themselves as white Croats...


 Of course they were registered as White Croats, because they were arriving to America with Austro-Hungarian papers, which stated that their ethnicity is White Croats. They didn't speak english to explain that they were Polish, and American emigration authority believed official A-H documents. White Croats from around Krakow was just a phenomenon of 19th century and a bit of 20th under A-H Empire.
The explanation, which I subscribe to, is that in some ancient documents one historian said that Moravian kingdom contained population of White Croats. A-H ruled over Moravia before invading Poland. It was for their convenience, when they invaded Poland (actually Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) to declare that this part of Poland is White Croatia. As owners of Moravia by extension they were also owners of White Croatia. Therefore they explained that they didn't invade Poland but only acquired what was theirs (white Croatia) in hereditary terms, as rulers of Moravia they were also rulers of White Croatia. It was just a political game, justification of invasion, and not to feel guilty for the crime.
There is no agreement between modern historians where this White Croatia was placed within Moravian Kingdom. Farthermore, when we analyze pre 19th century documents we can't find any mentioning about White Croatia around Krakow area.

We can honestly blame Austro-Hungarian Empire for creating this mess.

You can check genetic similarities between people around Krakow and Croats to see if populations are genetically similar. If they are then White Croats indeed live around Krakow.

I admit there is a possibility that indeed White Croats started migration from around Krakow or Lvov area, but I don't give it a big chance.





> in this area and and southwestern Ukraine originates dinaric gene which is in Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins ..... it proves that they are Croatian origin ...


 Maybe so, but as I said it is only 2% of DNA and not all Croats and Serbs have it. Obviously Slavic language was transferred to all population, but not necessarily all DNA was. We can say that they are culturally Slavic, but genetically mostly ancient Balkans. Soon we will learn exact proportions of pre Slavic Balkans from future genetic research. It is just a matter of time.

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## hrvat22

> The difference between Serbs and Croats can be summarized as follows.
> 
> 1) Serbs are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Serbs are members of the Orthodox branch of christianity. Serbs generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Croats.
> 
> 2) Croats are primarily descended from people who were already living in the Balkans during the Neolithic, but they speak a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, which is a Slavic language. Many Croats are members of the Catholic branch of christianity. Croats generally have a long-standing dislike and mistrust of Serbs.
> 
> The most bitter quarrels you will ever see are quarrels between brothers who have become estranged.



The difference between Serbs and Croats can be summarized as follows. 


according Porphyrogenetus Croatians settled in Dalmatia Illyria and Pannonia ... Serbs do not 


according Porphyrogenetus Croats and Serbs were baptized from Rome ... Serbs turned back from Rome Croats does not .... 






according Porphyrogenetus Croats coming from a White Croatia and Serbs came from a place near them called bojka ..... Bojke are one of the tribes of the White Croatians ..... 




Croats have never lost a battle against the Bulgarians Serbs are .... 












at the Battle of Nicopolis in 1396, Serbs together with the Turks fought against Croats and Christian armies, the battle was won by the Serbs and forever strengthened Islam in the Balkans

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## LeBrok

> Croats have never lost a battle of Bulgarians Serbs are ....


 Of course, how could Croats lose a battle. Aren't you a bit hyper nationalistic again?






> at the Battle of Nicopolis in 1396, Serbs together with the Turks fought against Croats and Christian armies, the battle was won by the Serbs and forever strengthened Islam in the Balkans


 And that's why Serbs are Muslim now? Please lets kill each other again in a big World War, because there is no nation in Europe without a guilt of attacking, winning, killing raping, grabbing land, etc. It is an excellent reason to hate other nations till the end of the world.

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## hrvat22

Of course they were registered as White Croats, because they were arriving to America with Austro-Hungarian papers, which stated that their ethnicity is White Croats. They didn't speak english to explain that they were Polish, and American emigration authority believed official A-H documents. White Croats from around Krakow was just a phenomenon of 19th century and a bit of 20th under A-H Empire.

hahahahaah.... Americans even today do not know where is Croatia, much less where is white Croatia .......

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## hrvat22

Of course, how could Croats lose a battle. Aren't you a bit hyper nationalistic again?

Croats have lost a few battles but never from Bulgarians,, Croats have defended Serbs from the Bulgarian ......

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## hrvat22

And that's why Serbs are Muslim now? Please lets kill each other again in a big World War, because there is no nation in Europe without a guilt of attacking, winning, killing raping, grabbing land, etc. It is an excellent reason to hate other nations till the end of the world.


Serbs are not Muslims, but they fought for Islam against Christianity ....

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## LeBrok

> Of course they were registered as White Croats, because they were arriving to America with Austro-Hungarian papers, which stated that their ethnicity is White Croats. They didn't speak english to explain that they were Polish, and American emigration authority believed official A-H documents. White Croats from around Krakow was just a phenomenon of 19th century and a bit of 20th under A-H Empire.
> 
> hahahahaah.... Americans even today do not know where is Croatia, much less where is white Croatia .......


Same as most Croats don't know where is Idaho in America.

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## LeBrok

> Of course, how could Croats lose a battle. Aren't you a bit hyper nationalistic again?
> 
> Croats have lost a few battles but never from Bulgarians,, Croats have defended Serbs from the Bulgarian ......


That's sweet. Why don't you do like you ancestors and defend Serbs now, or at least don't insult them.

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## LeBrok

> And that's why Serbs are Muslim now? Please lets kill each other again in a big World War, because there is no nation in Europe without a guilt of attacking, winning, killing raping, grabbing land, etc. It is an excellent reason to hate other nations till the end of the world.
> 
> 
> Serbs are not Muslims, but they fought for Islam against Christianity ....


So what should we do with them? Should we kill them?

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## hrvat22

You can check genetic similarities between people around Krakow and Croats to see if populations are genetically similar. If they are then White Croats indeed live around Krakow.

I2a1b1 haplotype occurs and comes from southern Poland with Croats, where it has a small percentage today .. it's logic, it would not otherwise come from there to Croatia ....

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## hrvat22

So what should we do with them? Should be kill them?


Serbs are the biggest Christians of the world ..... is there any logic.....

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## hrvat22

Same as most Croats don't know where is Idaho in America.


You're a funny serb.....I love you bro....

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## King Bardhyl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Serbs

The Iranian theory

Theory about Iranian origin of the Serb ethnonym assumes that ancient Serbi / Serboi from north Caucasus (Asiatic Sarmatia) were an Sarmatian (Alanian) tribe.[25] The theory subsequently assumes that Alanian Serbi were subdued by the Huns in the 4th century and that they, as part of the Hunnic army, migrated to the western edge of the Hunnic Empire (in the area of Central Europe near the river Elbe, later designated as White Serbia in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland). After Hunnic leader Attila died (in 453), Alanian Serbi presumably became independent and ruled in the east of the river Saale (in modern day Germany) over local Slavic population.[26][27] Over time, they, it is argued, intermarried with the local Slavic population of the region,[28][29] adopted Slavic language, and transferred their name to the Slavs.[30] According to Tadeuš Sulimirski, similar event could occur in the Balkans or Serbs who settled in the Balkans were Slavs who came from the north and who were ruled by already slavicized Alans.[31]

Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia

Deformed human sculls that are connected to the Alans are also discovered in the area that was later designated as "White Serbia".[32] According to Iranian interpretation, different sides of the World are designated with different colors, thus, white color is designation for the west, black color for the north, blue or green color for the east and red color for the south. According to that view, White Serbia and White Croatia were designated as western Serbia and western Croatia, and were situated in the west from some hypothetical lands that had same names and that presumably existed in the east.[33]

It is possible that the Alanian Serbi in Sarmatia, similarly like other Sarmatian/Iranian peoples on the northern Caucasus, originally spoke an Indo-European Iranian language similar to present-day Ossetian. The Ossetian language is a member of Eastern Iranian branch of Iranian languages, along with Pashtun, Yaghnobi and languages of the Pamir. One of the Pashtun tribal groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan is known as Sarbans (Sarbani) and Pashtuns are believed to be of Scythian descent[34] while their language is classified as East Scythian[35] (Sarmatian language is also grouped within Scythian branch).

In Polish history, the Polish nobility claimed to be direct descendants of the historic Sarmatian people (see: Sarmatism) and this might be connected with historical White Serbia and White Croatia, which included parts of present-day Poland.

PS:
The Caucasian theory - According to some interpretations, Serb ethnonym might be of Caucasian or more notably of Lezgian origin. In the Lezgian language, "ser" would mean "man", while "serbi" would mean "men" or "people".[36]

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## King Bardhyl

Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia

----------


## Yetos

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Serbs
> 
> The Iranian theory
> 
> Theory about Iranian origin of the Serb ethnonym assumes that ancient Serbi / Serboi from north Caucasus (Asiatic Sarmatia) were an Sarmatian (Alanian) tribe.[25] The theory subsequently assumes that Alanian Serbi were subdued by the Huns in the 4th century and that they, as part of the Hunnic army, migrated to the western edge of the Hunnic Empire (in the area of Central Europe near the river Elbe, later designated as White Serbia in what is now Saxony (eastern Germany) and western Poland). After Hunnic leader Attila died (in 453), Alanian Serbi presumably became independent and ruled in the east of the river Saale (in modern day Germany) over local Slavic population.[26][27] Over time, they, it is argued, intermarried with the local Slavic population of the region,[28][29] adopted Slavic language, and transferred their name to the Slavs.[30] According to Tadeuš Sulimirski, similar event could occur in the Balkans or Serbs who settled in the Balkans were Slavs who came from the north and who were ruled by already slavicized Alans.[31]
> 
> Hypothetical Serb migration from Sarmatia
> 
> Deformed human sculls that are connected to the Alans are also discovered in the area that was later designated as "White Serbia".[32] According to Iranian interpretation, different sides of the World are designated with different colors, thus, white color is designation for the west, black color for the north, blue or green color for the east and red color for the south. According to that view, White Serbia and White Croatia were designated as western Serbia and western Croatia, and were situated in the west from some hypothetical lands that had same names and that presumably existed in the east.[33]
> ...


if Sebs were Lazoi, then they should be heavily in R1b and R1a

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## King Bardhyl

*9th Century
*The town was mentioned again not until the IX century, under *the Slavic name* BEOGRAD (White Town - probably because of the walls made of white limestone). It was *in a letter of April 16, 878 which Pope John VIII wrote to the Bulgarian prince Boris-Mihailo*, about the dismissal of a Christian bishop Sergije. 

Later, this name appeared in several variants: *ALBA GRAECA*, GRIECHISCH WEISSENBURG, NANDOR ALBA, NANDOR FEJERVAR, CASTELBIANCO, *ALBA BULGARICA*.

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## King Bardhyl

*14th Century

*The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, by Sir John Mandeville, 1357
And the King of Hungary is a great lord and a mighty, and holdeth great lordships and much land in his hand. For he holdeth the kingdom of Hungary, Sclavonia, and of Comania a great part, *and of Bulgaria that men call the land of Bougiers……….

And after, go men to Belgrade, and enter into the land of Bougiers*; and there pass men a bridge of stone that is upon the river of Marrok.

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## King Bardhyl

*17th Century
*http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Le...frametext1.htm
*Simeon Lehaci, Balkan Traveller of Armenian origin, 1608-1620.
In Bosnia, everywhere there are also many Bulgarian monasteries .... In Bosnia, all the people speak in Bulgarian........



19th Century (Early)
*Mark Mazower, The Balkans
As late as 1810, for instance, there were only two elementary schools in the *Pashalik of Belgrade*(the core of future Serbia), and *in both the language of instruction was Greek*.

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## King Bardhyl

*19th Century (Mid)
*

----------


## King Bardhyl

In 1790 or in 1804, *"Serb"* always meant *"peasant."* 
Man, state, and society in East European history, page 131, By Stephen A. Fischer-Galați

throughout many parts of Austria-Hungary to be a *Serb* meant to be a *peasant* and vice versa 
Austrian history yearbook, page 43, By Rice University, American Historical Association. Conference Group for Central European History, University of Minnesota. Center for Austrian Studies.

Prior to, during and after its creation, Serbia had newspapers with the name 'Greciia' labelled on them, they only had 2 elementary schools in Belgrade in which the language of education was Greek, according to Serbs themselves such as Stojanovic and Karanovic the upper classes spoke and identified as Greeks.

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## King Bardhyl

*The Balkans in World History, by Andrew Baruch Wachtel*






"We are apt to speak of the Serbs of Serbia as 'the' Serbians,
and to forget that modern Serbia is a recent state mapped out
arbitrarily by the Powers."
by *Mary E. Durham*

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## Yetos

> *9th Century
> *The town was mentioned again not until the IX century, under *the Slavic name* BEOGRAD (White Town - probably because of the walls made of white limestone). It was *in a letter of April 16, 878 which Pope John VIII wrote to the Bulgarian prince Boris-Mihailo*, about the dismissal of a Christian bishop Sergije. 
> 
> Later, this name appeared in several variants: *ALBA GRAECA*, GRIECHISCH WEISSENBURG, NANDOR ALBA, NANDOR FEJERVAR, CASTELBIANCO, *ALBA BULGARICA*.



so it was Greeks who build Belingrand? and not Scordisci?
thank you for the honor,

I see I have seen a map showing Bulgaria in Bosnia Croatia Serbia Albania, and Makedonia in modern Bulgaria/Turkey are refering to this map?






Are you refering to the Byzantine divisions which also knew Italians 
when Adrianoypolis today Turkey was capital of 'Makedonia' 
no Albania, and only Bulgaria?

aren't you tired to use the strategical rulling divisions as national and ethnic divisions?

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## King Bardhyl

*1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage* _The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books). Though the reference to the existence of the language is clear, that to writing in Albanian is ambiguous. It cannot be said for certain whether the author meant Albanian-language books written in Latin script or simply books written in Latin. The former possibility has of course captured the imagination of subsequent generations of Albanian scholars and the text is often quoted to this end in histories and studies of Albanian literature as evidence that Albanian-language books existed long before the so-called Missal of Gjon Buzuku (1555)._

*On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered* I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could  be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.
*One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church.* Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. *The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors.* Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.



(1)
On the authorship of the 'Directorium', cf. M. Šufflay, Pseudobrocardus..., in: _Vjesnik kraljevskog hrvatskog slavonskog dalmatinskog zemeljskog archiva_, Zagreb, 13 (1911), p. 142-150; A. Atiya, _The Crusade in the Later Middle Ages_, New York 1965, p. 95 106, 65 67.

(2)
Settlement near the river Buna, on the Montenegrin side of the present border. At its zenith during the Middle Ages it was known as _Suacium_, Italian _Suazzo_, _Sfazzi_, French _Soans_, and now in Albanian as _Shas_ and in Serbo-Croatian as _Šas_. The town was first documented in 1067 and began to decay around the end of the 14th century.

(3)
Village on the river Kir, northeast of Shkodra.

(4)
Pult (_Polatum_) is a region on the river Kir extending beyond Drisht to Prekal.

(5)
Saba or Sapa was in the Zadrima region east of Shkodra, later to be part of the diocese of Sapa and Sarda (_Sapatensis et Sardensis_).

(6)
Albanopolis has been traditionally identified with the village of Zgërdhesh, south of Kruja.

(7)
For an interpretation of this sentence, cf. I. Zamputi, in: Hylli i Dritës, 1-2, 1995, p. 14-51.


[Extract from: _Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie_, Paris 1906, p. 478 485. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: _Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries_, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 28-30.]




*File:Balkans 1265.jpg*

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## King Bardhyl

Here is an importan quote about what the meaning of Serb/Serv/Serf is, directly from the source:
But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius recieved him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination. *'Serbs'* in the tongue of the Romans is the word for *'slaves'*, whence the colloquial 'serbula' for menial shoes, and 'tzerboulianoi' for those who wear cheap, shoddy footgear. *This name the Serbs acquired from their being slaves of the emperor of the Romans.

*Source: "DE ADMINISTRANDO IMPERIO" by Constantine Porphyrogenitus, paragraph 32, written between the years AD 948-952.

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## King Bardhyl

*The Balkans* by Dennis P. Hupchick


Here's something else on "Resava"- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manasija_monastery
Manasija (Serbian Cyrillic: Манасија), also known as Resava (Serbian Cyrillic: Ресава), is a Serb Orthodox monastery near Despotovac, Serbia, founded by Despotes Stefan Lazarević between 1407 and 1418. It is one of the most significant monuments of medieval Serbian culture and it belongs to the "Morava school". Immediately following its foundation, the monastery became the cultural centre of the Serbian Despotate. Its Resava school was well known for its manuscripts and translations throughout the 15th and 16th centuries, even after the fall of the Despotate to the Ottoman Turks. 

and more here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomoravlje_District
The Resava-Manasija monastery is located in the immediate vicinity of Despotovac. The Resava endowment of Despot Stefan Lazarević was built between 1407 and 1418. Over the fifteenth century the famous Resava School carried out its work there, in the framework of several workshops in which major texts of the world heritage were copied and the new ones written. Konstantin the Philosopher, the author of the "Hagiography of Despot Stefan" and the "Book on Letters" which regulated the then current Orthography of Serbian language, carried out his creative work in the Resava monastery.

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## Garrick

> In 1790 or in 1804, *"Serb"* always meant *"peasant."* 
> Man, state, and society in East European history, page 131, By Stephen A. Fischer-Galați
> 
> throughout many parts of Austria-Hungary to be a *Serb* meant to be a *peasant* and vice versa 
> Austrian history yearbook, page 43, By Rice University, American Historical Association. Conference Group for Central European History, University of Minnesota. Center for Austrian Studies.


*Serbs* had *nobility* in *middle ages*, and Serbian nobility was rich similar as other countries in Europe.

*Serbian nobility*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_nobility 

In historiography, high and late medieval *Serbian nobility* ("*lords, nobles*" - plemići/племићи, vlastela/) could be grouped into "*magnates*" (velikaši/великаши - "*Great, Grand*", or *velmoža*, or *vlastela*) and "*lesser lords*" (vlasteličići). A military rank was *vojvoda* (*war-leader*, war-bringer), which was bestowed upon talented general, regardless of descent and social rank.


The ruling nobility possessed hereditary allodial estates, which were worked by dependent _sebri_, the equivalent of Greek paroikos; peasants owing labour services, formally bound by decree.

All *noblemen* were obliged to serve the *monarch* in *war*.

Titles include:


Prince, possessor of a lordship styled principality, a title which was only semi-official and never gave his possessor precedence at the court. Not to be confused with the rank of Prince.despot, (court title)sevastokratorkesar, (court title)gospodar (Lord), possessor of a lordship directly under the rule of the monarchban (administrative)kefalija (from Greek _kephalē_, meaning "Head"), (administrative)_čelnik_(Head), (administrative)logotet (administrative)protovestijar (protovestiarios), used after Stefan Milutin (financial)kaznac, (financial)sevast, (court title)_protosevast_tepčija, (court title)_veliki domestik__domestik_ (domestikos)_veliki čauš.
_ 

...
*Serbian nobility* has dissapeared at the time of *Ottoman occupation*.

Serbia and Balkans were similar developed as England and Scandinavian countries in medieval times (1000 year).

But Western Europe had humanism and renaissance while Balkan countries had Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

While Western Europe developed, people in Balkan countries was struggling to survive in very hard conditions.

Villages and fleeing to the mountins meant the safest refuge for survival.

...
From Wikipedia:

"With the fall of Serbia in the 15th century, *Serbian nobility survived in Montenegro, Venetian territories and in the Austro-Hungarian lands*. In the 19th century, with the independence from the Ottoman Empire, a *new nobility* based out of warriors and other wealthy intelligentsia emerged."

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## Bachus

Average Serbian autosomal K12b

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## Wonomyro

empty message

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## Angela

What would be interesting to see is a Serbian result from the K12 at geneplaza. Calculators based on modern clusters are not at all as informative, imo.

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## Bachus

*Y DNA of Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina (sample 380)* 


*​Y DNA of Serbs from Serbia (sample 785)*


- Bosnian Serbs have more R1a than Serbs from Serbia, but less I2a

- Serbs from Serbia have little more E1b, G2 and R1b

- Bosnian Serbs have little more N

- I1 and J2b are equal

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## Lenab

It's bs Slavs come from the Steppes not Iran

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