# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

## bigsnake49

It would be interesting to also be able to determine any genetic drift from mainland Greece and the dates of Greek migrations into Southern Italy.

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## Ownstyler

The best ones are:

1- https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...-01802-4#Sec16
2- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/

However, mainland Greece differs significantly from Greek islands. The articles suggest that the various waves of migration and settlement have had a huge impact on the ancestry of all continental Greece, to the point that it now clusters closer to the rest of the Balkans, most notably Albanians, than to Greek islands and South Italy.

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## Angela

Still 75% similar to the Mycenaeans, for all of that.

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## davef

Well it may be a tough call. Southern Italy has a lot of affinity with Greece in terms of genes but a lot of it could be due to common ancient ancestors and a lot of it could be from the colonies. We need more samples as well as more studies to unravel things

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## Ownstyler

I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.

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## Angela

> I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.


It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.

There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age. 

The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.


Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.

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## Ownstyler

> It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.
> 
> There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age. 
> 
> The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.
> 
> 
> Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.



I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.

The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?

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## Tutkun Arnaut

> It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.
> 
> There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age. 
> 
> The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.
> 
> 
> Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.


The closest Greek populations to ancient Greeks are people of Islands. The difference between people of Islands and mainland Greeks is so great autosomal genetically, as they were two separate populations. Island Greeks are close to Sicilians and South Italians, where mainland Greeks are close to Balkan. Don't you think something happened to Mainland Greeks for these huge differences.?

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## Angela

> I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.
> 
> The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?


The Reich Lab in the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans came up with that figure. 

I am not, by the way, going to relitigate that paper.

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## bigsnake49

> I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.
> 
> The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?


Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.

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## Angela

> Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.


That's indeed the case.

"The first to colonise Southern Italy were the Euboeans, who with the move to Pithecusae (on the isle of Ischia), founded a series of cities in that region. The second city that they founded was Cumae, nearly opposite Ischia. The colonists from Cumae founded Zancle in on Sicily, and nearby on the opposite coast, Rhegium. Further, the Euboeans founded Naxos, which became the base for the founding of the cities of Leontini, Tauromenion and Catania. In this effort they were accompanied by small numbers of Dorians and Ionians; the Athenians had notably refused to take part in the colonisation.[quotes 1]The strongest of the Sicilian colonies was Syracuse, an 8th-century B.C. colony of the Corinthians. Colonists of that same period from Achaea founded the cities of Sybaris and Croton in the Gulf of Taranto but also in the Metapontum in the same district. In the same area, refugees from Sparta founded Taranto which evolved into one of the most powerful cities in the area. Other Greek states that founded cities in Southern Italy were Megara, which founded Megara Hyblaea, and Selinous; Phocaea, which founded Elea; Rhodes, which founded Gelatogether with the Cretans and Lipari together with Cnidus, even as the Locrians founded Epizephyrean Locris.[1]
Many cities in the region became in turn metropoles for new colonies such as the Syracusans, who founded the city of Camarina in the south of Sicily; or the Zancleans, who led the founding of the colony of Himera. Likewise Naxos, which we see taking further part in the founding of many colonies while the city of Sybarisfounded the colony of Poseidonia to its north. The city of Gela which was a colony of Rhodes and Crete founded its own colony, Acragas.[quotes 2]"


I know the Griko dialect is considered to descend partly from Doric Greek, and the Salento was indeed settled by Doric speakers. However, the toe of Calabria, where Greko is still spoken, was not. I know the two dialects are slightly different, but I wonder if the Greko or Grecanico of Calabria is less Doric influenced. 

If both are equally influenced by Doric, it might point to perhaps a Byzantine origin rather than an ancient Greek origin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect

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## Ownstyler

> The Reich Lab in the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans came up with that figure.


I assume you mean this one: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#f3. I don't see that figure anywhere. Can you find it?

Anyway, it should not matter because the fst calculations for Myceneans, show the smallest distance with modern samples from Greece, Cyprus, Albania and Italy (0.009). It is not clear which one is closest. They do not show that modern continental Greeks are closer to Myceneans than Albanians or Italians are. So similarity to Myceneans is irrelevant to the idea of continuity that you are upholding.




> Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.


They could be. Only the modern day populations do not provide evidence for genetic kinship, but ancient samples from South Italy and mainland Greece might.

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## matadworf

> That's indeed the case.
> 
> "The first to colonise Southern Italy were the Euboeans, who with the move to Pithecusae (on the isle of Ischia), founded a series of cities in that region. The second city that they founded was Cumae, nearly opposite Ischia. The colonists from Cumae founded Zancle in on Sicily, and nearby on the opposite coast, Rhegium. Further, the Euboeans founded Naxos, which became the base for the founding of the cities of Leontini, Tauromenion and Catania. In this effort they were accompanied by small numbers of Dorians and Ionians; the Athenians had notably refused to take part in the colonisation.[quotes 1]The strongest of the Sicilian colonies was Syracuse, an 8th-century B.C. colony of the Corinthians. Colonists of that same period from Achaea founded the cities of Sybaris and Croton in the Gulf of Taranto but also in the Metapontum in the same district. In the same area, refugees from Sparta founded Taranto which evolved into one of the most powerful cities in the area. Other Greek states that founded cities in Southern Italy were Megara, which founded Megara Hyblaea, and Selinous; Phocaea, which founded Elea; Rhodes, which founded Gelatogether with the Cretans and Lipari together with Cnidus, even as the Locrians founded Epizephyrean Locris.[1]
> Many cities in the region became in turn metropoles for new colonies such as the Syracusans, who founded the city of Camarina in the south of Sicily; or the Zancleans, who led the founding of the colony of Himera. Likewise Naxos, which we see taking further part in the founding of many colonies while the city of Sybarisfounded the colony of Poseidonia to its north. The city of Gela which was a colony of Rhodes and Crete founded its own colony, Acragas.[quotes 2]"
> 
> 
> I know the Griko dialect is considered to descend partly from Doric Greek, and the Salento was indeed settled by Doric speakers. However, the toe of Calabria, where Greko is still spoken, was not. I know the two dialects are slightly different, but I wonder if the Greko or Grecanico of Calabria is less Doric influenced. 
> 
> If both are equally influenced by Doric, it might point to perhaps a Byzantine origin rather than an ancient Greek origin?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect


Any idea where the Doric settlers were from? Possibly Messinia and Laconia in the Peloponnese? The Tsakonians still speak a form of Doric.

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## Salento

Griko Salentino video.
Greek speakers comments are welcomed, figure out from which part of Greece the Griko resembles the most.
My Town is not part of Grecia-Salentina and we speak an Italic dialect, I don’t understand it at all. :) 







*bonus*  :Heart:   :Grin: 
_Kalinifta_

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## Yetos

> The closest Greek populations to ancient Greeks are people of Islands. The difference between people of Islands and mainland Greeks is so great autosomal genetically, as they were two separate populations. Island Greeks are close to Sicilians and South Italians, where mainland Greeks are close to Balkan. Don't you think something happened to Mainland Greeks for these huge differences.?


Only an Ignorant who does not know genetics can say that,

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## Angela

> Any idea where the Doric settlers were from? Possibly Messinia and Laconia in the Peloponnese? The Tsakonians still speak a form of Doric.


You can cross reference using this and the list of colonies. 



If I'm getting it right, Siracusa got its Doric from Corinth, refugees from Sparta settled Tarentum, Megara founded Selinous, Rhodes founded Gela and so on. 

@Ownstyler,
Well, maybe I "was" speaking to you. You think that's the way to come to a conclusion, i.e. use the statistical tool, in this case fst, which supports your preferred result, and forget all the other measures? They all have their uses. Fst is not necessarily the best. 

Forget it. There's no rational, objective debate possible with Albanians on these matters. Think what you want. Just don't expect the rest of the world to agree.

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## Ownstyler

> @Ownstyler,
> Well, maybe I "was" speaking to you. You think that's the way to come to a conclusion, i.e. use the statistical tool, in this case fst, which supports your preferred result, and forget all the other measures? They all have their uses. Fst is not necessarily the best. 
> 
> Forget it. There's no rational, objective debate possible with Albanians on these matters. Think what you want. Just don't expect the rest of the world to agree.


Angela, I stated what seems to be an academic consensus, and I honestly thought most people here accept. I brought two initial sources. I quoted the part of the source you mentioned (and possibly misquoted) that referred to what we were discussing. Now you refuse to provide any explanations for your statements (still not sure where the 75% came from). It is the second time you withdraw from a completely civil argument with me. I am not the irrational one here.

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## Salento

> Well it may be a tough call. Southern Italy has a lot of affinity with Greece in terms of genes but a lot of it could be due to common ancient ancestors and a lot of it could be from the colonies. We need more samples as well as more studies to unravel things


In Salento (South Puglia), there were two types of Greek Colonists.

Ancient Greeks/Hellenics (Magna Grecia, about 8th and 7th centuries BC), and and Medieval Greeks (15th century AD, refugees from the Ottoman expansion in the Balkans).

Because of the Gap in time these Colonists could be genetically different.

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## bigsnake49

From the first referenced paper:

While Albanian-speaking Arbereshe trace their recent genetic ancestry to the Southern Balkans, the Greek-speaking communities of both Apulia (Griko) and Calabria (Grecani) show no clear signs of a recent (i.e. from the late Middle Ages) continental Greek origin, instead resembling the ‘_continuum’ populations of Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands (Fig._ 3_, Supplementary Table_ S5_, Supplementary Fig._ S7_, Supplementary Information)._

_
I would probably understand a lot more of the Greek dialects of the Salento and Calabria Greeks if I saw it written, for example the lyrics of their songs. 

_There was a music group that sang in Greko.

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## bigsnake49

> In Salento (South Puglia), there were two types of Greek Colonists.
> 
> Ancient Greeks/Hellenics (Magna Grecia, about 8th and 7th centuries BC), and and Medieval Greeks (15th century AD, refugees from the Ottoman expansion in the Balkans).
> 
> Because of the Gap in time these Colonists could be genetically different.


There were also quite a few Byzantine monasteries in the area during the Middle Ages but I don't think those contributed to the population genetics, unless the monks engaged in immoral activities. :Laughing:

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## Salento

> From the first referenced paper:
> While Albanian-speaking Arbereshe trace their recent genetic ancestry to the Southern Balkans, the Greek-speaking communities of both Apulia (Griko) and Calabria (Grecani) show no clear signs of a recent (i.e. from the late Middle Ages) continental Greek origin, instead resembling the ‘_continuum’ populations of Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands (Fig._ 3_, Supplementary Table_ S5_, Supplementary Fig._ S7_, Supplementary Information)._
> _
> I would probably understand a lot more of the Greek dialects of the Salento and Calabria Greeks if I saw it written, for example the lyrics of their songs. 
> _There was a music group that sang in Greko.


Kalinifta with Text:





Another clear version of Kalinifta:




_Kalinifta_:
Ti en glicea tusi nifta, ti en òria,
c’evò ‘e plonno pensèonta ‘s esena,
c’ettumpì sti’ fenèstrassu, agàpimu,
tis kardìammu su nifto ti’ pena.
Evò panta ‘s esena penseo,
jatì ‘sena, fsichimmu gapò,
ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
C’esù mai de’ m’agàpise, òriamu,
‘e su pònise mai pus emena;
mai citt’òria chìlisu ‘en ènifse,
na mu pi loja agapi vloimena!
Itt’ammàissu to mago, o gliceo,
‘en ghelà mai ja mena o ftechò,
mentre evò ‘cì pu sirno, pu steo,
sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
T’asteràcia pu panu me vlèpune
ce mo fengo krifizzu’ nomena
ce jelù’ ce mu lèune: ston ànemo
ta traùdia pelìs, i’ chamena.
Ma ta jèjato evò ‘en ekkiteo
ce sta lòjato ‘en vaddho skupò
jatì panta ‘s esena penso
sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
Ma ‘su plonni, teleste, ce ‘s ìpuno
ste torì cino pu e’ gapimeno
ti jelonta filì t’ammadàciasu
ce se ‘ssifti sto’ pèttottu, ohimmena!
Kalì nifta, se finno ce feo,
plaja ‘su, ti ‘vò pirta prikò,
ma pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.

————-
_
Buonanotte_:
Com’è dolce questa notte, com’è bella e io non dormo pensando a te e qui dietro alla tua finestra, amore mio, del mio cuore ti apro le
————
_
Good Night:_
How sweet and nice is this night,
and I am lying down thinking about you
and outside from your window
I am giving you the pain of my heart

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## bigsnake49

> Kalinifta with Text:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another clear version of Kalinifta:
> 
> ...


I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.

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## Salento

> I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.


Thanks :) 

_English Version_:

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## bigsnake49

Greek transliteration:

Τι εν γλυτσέα τούση νύφτα τι εν ωρια
τσ εβώ ε πλώνω πενσέοντα σ εσένα
τσ ετου μπει στη φενέστρα σου αγαπη μου
της καρδίας μου σου νοίφτω τη πένα

Λαλαλα λαλαλερο

Εβω παντα σ εσενα πενσεω
γιατί σένα φσυχή μου γαπω
τσαι που παω που σύρνω που στέω
στη καρδία μου πάντα σενα βαστω

Λαλαλα λαλα λερο

Καληνυφτα σε φηνω τσαι παω
πλάια σου τι βω πίρτα πρικό
τσαι που παω που συρνω που στεω
στη καρδία μου πάντα σενα βαστώ﻿

Modern Greek translation:

Τι γλυκιά είναι τούτη η νύχτα, τι ωραία
και γώ ξαγρυπνώ και σε σκέφτομαι
και κάτω από το παραθύρι σου, αγάπη μου,
της καρδιας μου σου βγάζω τον πόνο

Λαλαλα λαλα λερο…

Εγώ σε σκέφτομαι πάντα 
γιατί σένα, ψυχή μου, αγαπώ
και οπού κι αν πάω, που φεύγω, που στέκομαι
στην καρδιά μου πάντα σένα βαστώ

Λαλαλα λαλα λερο…

Καληνύχτα σε αφήνω και φεύγω
Κοιμήσου συ και εγώ πάω θλιμμένος
και οπού κι αν πάω, που φεύγω, που στέκομαι
στην καρδιά μου πάντα σένα βαστώ﻿

English translation:

How sweet is this night, how beautiful
And I am staying awake thinking of you
And underneath your window, my love
I pour out the pain in my heart


La, la, la, la la, lero


I am always thinking of you
because you, my soul, I love
And wherever I go, wherever I leave, wherever I stay
In my heart, always, I hold you

La, la, la, la la, lero


Goodnight, I leave you and go
You sleep and I will go (away) sad
And wherever I go, wherever I leave, wherever I stay
In my heart, always, I hold you

I am sorry, my poetic skills are not as good as they used to be.  :Sad 2:

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## bigsnake49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc&frags=wn

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## Angela

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc&frags=wn


Such a gorgeous song. I love their music, and their dances.

You might like these.




The Griko language:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww

Grecanico...Just a bit of trivia, the famous Italian actor Raoul Bova traces some of his ancestry to this area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0nTkxfneAE

The oaf goes into a holy place half naked!

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## Yetos

S Italy was colonised 5 times by Greeks or Greco-Romans
while rest of Italy was 3 times, some parts.


*1rst* the known ancient Colonization the Magna Grecia

*2nd* is the Medieval, which included also Balcanic populations, and East Romans, the era of Slavic invasions and collapse of Danube line 
Aspromonte and Galliciano is from that case

*3rd* is the Era of Constantinoupolis collapse starting Before 1400 AD till the stabilization, Even Greeks From Crimaia and Trebizon fled to West,
the Era of marriage a princess and gain a title of nobility, Offcourse that did include only Greeks, but also other Balcanic and minor Asian population, even in Mantova, and more North we find Byzantine devastations

*4rth* is the era of Enetocracy, when parts of Greco-Roman ex empire were hold by Vemice and Genoua, offcourse that was also the oposite, many Italians came to Greece as rulers, officers etc etc
That is also the era of original Arberesh of Hora in Sicily , Santo Demetrio etc, the era when Greco-Roman army was mercenairy, the Era that in Venice was the St Giorgio dei Stradioti,
*
5fth* is the era before big revolt, the era of Piracy etc, the era of Orlov etc,
lots of famillies or villages moved to Italy and West Europe to avoid revenge penalties, inner revenge and vendettas, Ottoman revenge and Turk-Albanian chase.
an example is the Carghiese in Corsica from Καρυες (Καρυουπολις) and the Mondestre in Sardinia,

Some families of the last 3 cases have returned at Hellas (now) at 1821 and after, some played semantic role in Greek revolt and rebirth, 
but majority remained back, as some Italian remained in their Aegean colonies


the termination of Greek speaker in Italy and mainly in South, 
can not only determined by the ancient Greek colonisation only, which is still the main factor as concerning area spread, 
but spoted could also be the one we call Greco-Roman and East Roman which includes also elements from rest of Balkans and minor Asia, or other areas that cover that time,

*So when we say Grico, Grecani etc in Italy it has to do with consious of nationality and nativity
*a real Grico is 2700 years Greek and 100 years Italian, YET long time native in Italy.
for him the memories are different, than the one who moved aafter 1400 AD

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## xri34

> I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.


I speak both Greek and Italian. I can understand most of the lyrics but not every word. The base of this language is Greek but not modern Greek. In addition the Italian elements are not from the standard Italian but from southern Italian dialects. It's impressing how they combine these elements. For example it says penseonta. It means thinking. It is from the Italian verb pensare and the Greek ending ontas (skeftontas).

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## Angela

> S Italy was colonised 5 times by Greeks or Greco-Romans
> while rest of Italy was 3 times, some parts.
> 
> 
> *1rst* the known ancient Colonization the Magna Grecia
> 
> *2nd* is the Medieval, which included also Balcanic populations, and East Romans, the era of Slavic invasions and collapse of Danube line 
> Aspromonte and Galliciano is from that case
> 
> ...


The thing is, unlike the Arbereshe, the vast majority have no cultural memory of "arrival", which leads me to believe they're probably just southern Italians who held onto the Greek language and Orthodoxy longer than the others. After all, Italian was an interlude of about 500 years between Magna Graecia and the Byzantine Empire .

Other than the migrations of Magna Graecia you're not talking about mass migrations, at least I've never seen reports of numbers like that, so while they may have had an impact, they weren't major.

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## Angela

> I speak both Greek and Italian. I can understand most of the lyrics but not every word. The base of this language is Greek but not modern Greek. In addition the Italian elements are not from the standard Italian but from southern Italian dialects. It's impressing how they combine these elements. For example it says penseonta. It means thinking. It is from the Italian verb pensare and the Greek ending ontas (skeftontas).



Very interesting. 

I can say that from my husband's family history as well as academic sources, much bigger swathes of Calabria were "Greek" speaking until two hundred years or so ago.

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## xri34

> Very interesting. 
> 
> I can say that from my husband's family history as well as academic sources, much bigger swathes of Calabria were "Greek" speaking until two hundred years or so ago.


At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.

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## Angela

> At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.


If that's true, then the Greek part of the language may stem from the language of the Byzantine administrators, because it was a Doric language which was spoken there during the time of Magna Graecia. 

In Calabria, on the other hand, you do have some Ionic speakers originally. 

We don't know, however, if one dialect eventually spread throughout Magna Graecia, or at least "I" don't.

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## xri34

> If that's true, then the Greek part of the language may stem from the language of the Byzantine administrators, because it was a Doric language which was spoken there during the time of Magna Graecia. 
> 
> In Calabria, on the other hand, you do have some Ionic speakers originally. 
> 
> 
> We don't know, however, if one dialect eventually spread throughout Magna Graecia, or at least "I" don't.


It is not clear yet. There are different suggestions about the origin of these dialects. In my opinion the best explanation is that the dialects of Magna Grecia were enriched by some Greek medieval elements during the Byzantine era.

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## Angela

> It is not clear yet. There are different suggestions about the origin of these dialects. In my opinion the best explanation is that the dialects of Magna Grecia were enriched by some Greek medieval elements during the Byzantine era.



That seems very logical to me.

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## bigsnake49

> At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.


It does sound like the Ionian islands dialects but I also hear Cretan and Aegean island dialects.

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## Yetos

> The thing is, unlike the Arbereshe, the vast majority have no cultural memory of "arrival", which leads me to believe they're probably just southern Italians who held onto the Greek language and Orthodoxy longer than the others. After all, Italian was an interlude of about 500 years between Magna Graecia and the Byzantine Empire .
> 
> Other than the migrations of Magna Graecia you're not talking about mass migrations, at least I've never seen reports of numbers like that, so while they may have had an impact, they weren't major.


I was clear. before we agree notice this

Yes the major devastation was the 1rst one, 
and not the numbers some imagine, but they made a new culture there, 
the second Bigest was the collapse of Constantinoupolis, not only Italy, but every where, even Russia. 
but that was a discrace devastation, mainly of elite, and resist ones, nobody who devastate wants to remember it.
Santa Sofia (Athena godess in fathers religion) churches after 1350 is a memmory, don't you think?
the old culture absorved the newcomers, who wanted to forget.

There is a lot of Koine than ancient Doric or Ionian if you know Greek,
which justifies newcomers mix with the old ones,
as also the C 'ts' instead of K shows much Italo/latin influence,

as i said 2800 years Italian native some, yet 2700 years Greek
But some are less than 600 years native, due to Koine Greek dialect.

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## xri34

> It does sound like the Ionian islands dialects but I also hear Cretan and Aegean island dialects.


Yes it is true. I had watched these documentaries with a Cypriot who told me this dialect reminds him somehow the Cypriot dialect. But maybe it is just the accent.

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## bigsnake49

On some of the comments on the posted videos, Cypriot Greeks claim that some of the words sound like the Cypriot dialect of Greek.

Also from the comments:

Hearing Calabrian Greek spoken in the villages of Gallicianò and Bova. For those who speak Greek, I didn't find it to be ancient or Doric sounding at all. There are some words that certainly are old ("outhe" for "no", "chloro" for the color green, "anthos" for flower, "platego" for "to speak" which probably comes from "politeuo" (πολιτευω) which means "to act like a citizen/speak in a public forum" etc.). But it basically sounds like Italianized modern Greek with some ancient words.There appear to be no theta, gamma, or delta sounds evidencing Latin/Italian influence. Anything beginning with a "kappa" is pronounced with a "che" rather than a hard c sound like modern Greek. Hence you hear "che" for "and" instead of kai (και). The "ψ" is inverted. Rather than a "ps" sound in modern Greek, Calabrian Greek say "sp." Hence, the modern Greek word "psyche" (ψυχή) is pronounced "spyche." Also all "chi" ("Χ") and "xi"sounds ("Ξ") seem pronounced like "sh" which is common in modern Italian.I suspect they speak a dialect more closely related to the Koine Greek spoken at the time of the 11th century Byzantine Empire, the last and final time Southern Italy was still part of the Greek speaking world. What's interesting is that they have no Turkish loan words which modern Greek has such as tzami for "glass" among others (they call it "vitro" which is Italian) which make sense given the Ottomans never conquered the region. Overall, most modern Greek speakers should understand it pretty thoroughly.

----------


## Salento

> At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.


Maybe the man meant that everyone spoke Griko in his Town.

I assure you, in Salento the vast majority of the people did not speak Griko before ww2.

Only 10-11 small Towns have a connection with the Griko.
There are 97 Towns in the Province of Lecce alone, going over 100 by adding part of Brindisi and Taranto.


_The Towns belonging to Grecìa Salentina are in Red and Green._




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecìa_Salentina

----------


## xri34

I am curious to see the gedmatch results of these people.

----------


## bigsnake49

> I am curious to see the gedmatch results of these people.


The second post of this thread refers you to couple of articles. I don't know about gedmatch results.

From the first article it seems that they show remarkable similarity to the surrounding Southern Italian population but with some genetic drift due to inbreeding and isolatedness. This can only lead to one of the two conclusions: Both populations were part of the Med genetic continuum or the ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia overwhelmed the area and then were assimilated into the Italian ethnos, except for these isolates in the Calabrian mountains. It would be interesting to see if official records support one or the other conclusion.

----------


## Yetos

Bigsnake

you are right, they have enough koine,
which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
and during Roman empire,

I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)

did you notice any absence of dative case?
When you believe started the language start to decline

----------


## bigsnake49

> Bigsnake
> 
> you are right, they have enough koine,
> which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
> and during Roman empire,
> 
> I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
> since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)
> 
> ...


I think their isolation started during the dark ages when piracy was rampant in the Mediterranean. Venetian, Genovese and Catalan pirates, not to mention Saracens were the scourge of the Med coastal communities. So a lot of Magna Grecia Greeks moved to the mountainous areas.

----------


## Salento

In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation. 

The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.

The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.

From Herodotus:
... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...

... fu questa la più grande strage di Greci e Reggini che noi conosciamo ... 

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi

----------


## xri34

> In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation. 
> 
> The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.
> 
> The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.
> 
> From Herodotus:
> ... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...
> 
> ...


Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
This is from Wikipedia 

Nella seconda met del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm mai. L'impero bizantino, favor l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Greca salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.

----------


## LABERIA

@Angela.
Why you deleted my post? Why you gave me an infraction, which member i offended with my post?

----------


## LABERIA

> Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
> This is from Wikipedia 
> 
> Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.


Bizantine, or better Romans means different ethnic groups. For example Jewish:
https://books.google.al/books?id=xYw...page&q&f=false

----------


## Salento

> Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
> This is from Wikipedia 
> 
> Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.



Let’s not confuse all of *Salento* with *Grecìa-Salentina*.

Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.

*Grecìa-Salentina* is just an area of 11 Towns located in *Salento*.

----------


## xri34

> Bizantine, or better Romans means different ethnic groups. For example Jewish:
> https://books.google.al/books?id=xYw...page&q&f=false


I know that but most of them came from the area of Greece.

----------


## xri34

> Let’s not confuse all of *Salento* with *Grecìa-Salentina*.
> 
> Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.
> 
> *Grecìa-Salentina* is just an area of 11 Towns located in *Salento*.


What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.

----------


## Yetos

Salento

The whole story reminds me an older event, a joke, that came to reality for some,
when some tourists instead of Athena, wrote Atena
and the GBS drove them to Atena Lucana

https://newsbeezer.com/greeceeng/the...loukana-world/

----------


## Salento

> What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.


The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.

Salento is the greyed out area on the right.

I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...

Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.




@Yetos Very funny lol

----------


## Angela

> Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
> This is from Wikipedia 
> 
> Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.


Which article xri? I'd like to see if they provide sources.

----------


## xri34

> Which article xri? I'd like to see if they provide sources.


https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia...ione_bizantina

----------


## xri34

> The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.
> 
> Salento is the greyed out area on the right.
> 
> I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...
> 
> Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.
> 
> 
> ...


Is this from AncestryDNA? Interesting that they leave outside this part! I score at 23andme 9.2% Italian and especially Puglia. Of course it may be just genetic similarity. However I am from Peloponnese and we should bear in mind that after Byzantine Empire reconquested the region by Slavs (9th century) and removed many of them to other areas brought in Peloponnese many Greek speakers from Southern Italy who left their genetic impact in the area.

----------


## Salento

Yes ........

----------


## xri34

> Yes ........


Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.

----------


## Salento

> Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.


Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.


in Italian:
... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino


my NatGeo:

----------


## xri34

> Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
> The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.
> 
> 
> in Italian:
> ... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...
> 
> https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino
> 
> ...


This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.

----------


## Salento

> This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.



I don’t know the deep history of every single corner of South Italy, I know mine.  :Satisfied:

----------


## Yetos

the Ancient Greek colonists were spread in S Italy and Sikelia,
they made their circle, and in some areas 'resist' and kept alive and in some not,
Roides mention about gathering the Greeks of Sicily and send them to Scythopolis to execute them,
Yet I believe that some 'pockets kept their language,
but after that many devastations happened through centuries,
I wrote a post about the waves and the reasons,
Many of what today apeak Grico Grecanica etc are not from antique, but from medieval devastations,
for example it is Certified that Galliciano are from today Κιλκις the Roman Callicum, Notice Gallicos river, Γαλλικος Not Εχεδωρος,
and moved there the era of Slavic expand to Balkans, and has nothing to do with Ancient Magna Grecia,
Yet the ancient Greek should be spoken in some pockets until the Normand occupation for me,
But major Greek were lost after Mediolanum treaty, ancient Greeks had a kind of holocaust after that.
yet due to the spread and those who convert to christianity the DNA remains.

So for those who know the history it is not surprising that many of the Grico are not ancient,
Until 1800 villages from Greeks moved to Italy and rest Europe silently.

The eras and the reasons
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post574082



to understand 
Notice the song, 

Ti en glicea tusi nifta, ti en òria,
c’evò ‘e plonno pensèonta ‘s esena,
c’ettumpì sti’ fenèstrassu, agàpimu,
tis kardìammu su nifto ti’ pena.
Evò panta ‘s esena penseo,
jatì ‘sena, fsichimmu gapò,
*ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,*

it says penseontas which is Italian Pense and Greek ending of grammatical participle -ωντας, it means not usage of ancient νοω, neither modern σκεφτομαι
also notice 
glicea tusi nifta, glykea toytth nyhta 
γλυκεα τουτη Νυχτα, 
Ending -ea -εα is far old, back to antique, if was modern it should be γλυκια -ia

BUT 
*ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
*και *που* παω *που* σερνω *που* *στεω
* we see usage of* που* ιnstead of* οθεν 
*and *ιστημι* as _στεω_ (strange active voice usage, passive is *ισταμαι*)
which is modern *στε*-κομαι.

that means that this dialect was close to Koine evolution, had communication, or come from centuries much after collapse of Hellenistic kingdoms
and also that comes from older ones ending -ea,
but is so many years in Italy, that did not replace νοω with σκεπτομαι but with Italian pense.

which means that either was alive and big center of commerce and studies, which is not
or is created after christianity stabilization, I don't know exactly when, I guess much much later,
or newcomers found a substractum of ancient Greek and create the dialect, which member Salento excludes it.


BTW a Joke
when few months ago was in Crete, accomodated by local native friends,
there was an Italian pasta maestro, fresh macaroni, handmade, etc
He is from somewhere central Italy, 
he was well known to my friends so to tease him and make jokes,
every time they ask him the same question, due to history of island,
'hey, Do you want, to take back Crete? or would n't be nice, to take back Crete?
and the answer was so smart and so simple
'To do it what? we have an island bigger than yours, and our South is more Greek than you are' 


 :Grin:   :Grin:   :Grin:

----------


## Salento

It goes both way. It’s complicated.

I was trying to be on Topic.

I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)  :Innocent:   :Grin:

----------


## LABERIA

> *It goes both way.* It’s complicated.
> 
> I was trying to be on Topic.
> 
> I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)


Yeah, Corinth for example. The Romas slaugtered the male inhabitants and the rest of population were sold as slave. Later Julius Caesar rebuild the city.

*Battle of Corinth (146 BC)*




> *Aftermath*
> Corinth was utterly destroyed in this year by the vicious Roman army and all of her treasures and art plundered. The entire adult male population was put to the sword and the female population and children sold into slavery. The annihilation of Corinth, the same fate met by Carthage the same year, marked a severe departure from previous Roman policy in Greece. 
> While there is archaeological evidence of some minimal habitation in the years afterwards, Julius Caesar re-established the city as Colonia Laus Iulia Corinthiensis in 44 BCE, shortly before his assassination.



*Monument of Dexilaus: Depiction of an Athenian slain by a Roman at the Battle of Corinth*

----------


## Yetos

> It goes both way. It’s complicated.
> 
> I was trying to be on Topic.
> 
> I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)



you mean this?

Eleousa ελεουσα
in Italian Campo Chiaro




the Beatyfull abbandon village,
una villachio bello, ma Alpino artitectura 
con disegno fantastici e costrictione meravigliosa
me altri, estraneo finezza per isola Med
*Ok we run offtopic*


Btw Salento look this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=WqYq07zo2G8

the villa of Mousolini as it called (De Vecci)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEw2Fn_zKls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AQw6LSkaE

The Italian effort to colonise Dodecanese at 20th century was a Failure.

Yet Italian's manage Better to settle in Greece in Era of Enetocracy,
Most Italian family surnames you find, are from this Era,
many of their communities from that era still are alive,
there is no need to say names

----------


## Salento

@Yetos 
It all depends on the stories we choose to hear.

I didn't know at first it was a competition. :) 

God forbid we don't go off topic at least once. LOL

----------


## Yetos

> @Yetos 
> It all depends on the stories we choose to hear.
> 
> I didn't know at first it was a competition. :) 
> 
> God forbid we don't go off topic at least once. LOL



Ok then,
If we are not offtopic

Yes I agree what you call the opposite way
Romans did not only Colonise Greece but also the whole balkans peninsula
A big part of Armani people have their ancestry there, in Roman Villas and Roman legions
a big part of later East Roman elite is also from Roman families, court in the begin, and a part later was always of Roman origin.
I mean a lot of Con/polis elite was Roman,

Italians
With Italy we may mean the peninsula, the today people etc
As Italians and not Romans the feeling and determination we give in Greece is the after Crusades Italy.
So an Italian from Roman era, is considered as Rum Romios, 
But an Italian from second era I mention is considered different as Italian,
Yes there were colonisation and settlements etc in Helladic space,
and a lot of families or villages come from this era colonization,
even some modern politicians come from this era,
some surnames still exist.
I do not know how much affected population, but traveling in these areas you can find much,

But the dodecanese case, hm

btw there is no competition,

----------


## Ralphie Boy

One of the papers cited above states that mainland Greeks are only slightly different than the other populations in the Mediterranean continuum. The Peloponnesian study shows slight overlapping and closeness with Sicilians, though that study didn’t look at other Balkan populations.

----------


## Angela

^^Indeed. 

What people have to remember is that a lot of analyses on mainland Greeks have traditionally been done using one academic sample which happens to have been taken from Thessaly. Central Greece and the Peloponnese may, in fact, would, imo, give different results.

I think it's clear that the people of southern Italy spoke a form of Greek during the period of Magna Graecia. To what extent they switched to Latin, I don't know. I'm sure they did for the bureaucracy etc., but did the common people continue speaking Greek to some extent? I don't know.

Then there's the 600 year period when Byzantium ruled big swathes of the south. Again, I would think the elites would speak a form of Byzantine Greek, but did all the common people do so as well? 

Then we have the period of Italicization, with perhaps a mixture of languages once more, but some additional Greek speakers might have arrived.

It's almost impossible to get answers from archaeology or the snippets of history we possess as to exactly what changes happened and where and when. 

I'll leave it to the linguists, who seem to feel there is Byzantine Greek but also some archaic Greek, and then Italian additions as well.

Meanwhile, none of this tells us about genetic changes, if any. Language change happens when rulers change. It doesn't necessarily mean massive genetic change. 

I've read a lot about Greek refugees arriving at various periods after the colonization in the first millennium BC. I don't at all doubt it. However, I've been looking for papers for a long time which might indicate how many came, and I can find nothing. 

If I take the Langobards as an example, I can see that even a folk migration during a time when Italy was depopulated after the Gothic Wars, while it did have an effect on the Italian genome in certain areas of the country, did not massively change it if we try to approximate it by the changes in ydna. Even in the areas where they had the biggest impact, like the Veneto, the amount of U-106 and even I1 is not very high. 

I would say my tried and true line that we need more ancient dna, such as samples before late antiquity and after, and then after the fall of Constantinople, etc. but if these groups were pretty similar to begin with, I don't know if even that will give us the answers we would like.

Anyway, here is one paper on the Salento which gives a lot of context but no answers. 
https://www.academia.edu/2522547/Vil...dieval_Salento

I'll keep looking when I have the time.

----------


## bigsnake49

I tried looking at the dance costumes of the area but they are rather plain, not that much different than Italian or Sicilian dance costumes. As far as the closest Greek costumes, maybe Cypriot?

Griko:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...bria_Italy.JPG

Compare it with all the costumes from different areas of Greece:

https://www.pinterest.com/tinaliaos/...dance-costume/

----------


## Angela

> I tried looking at the dance costumes of the area but they are rather plain, not that much different than Italian or Sicilian dance costumes. As far as the closest Greek costumes, maybe Cypriot?
> 
> Griko:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...bria_Italy.JPG
> 
> Compare it with all the costumes from different areas of Greece:
> 
> https://www.pinterest.com/tinaliaos/...dance-costume/


Traditional festival dress of the Gargano peninsula Puglia:


Lecce in the Salento:


I'm not aware that their clothing was any different than that of the people around them. 

As for the pizzica dancers, the dance of today is completely different from the dance as it is first recorded. It was a rather frightening looking dance where the women looked like they were possessed. The idea was that they had been bitten by a scorpion and they were trying to dance the poison out of their bodies. It was dance as ritual healing. 

The realty was probably either hysteria brought on by the tragedies and restrictions of their lives, or mental illness, or either one married to ancient, perhaps Dionysian rites, as it was always women who were so afflicted. 

The women would start dancing wearing whatever they were wearing when bitten, or were put into white, almost penitential garb. 



From this frightening dance (and the real footage is infinitely more disturbing), the Salentini created a dance of beauty, grace, and sensuality.

----------


## bigsnake49

Are you talking about this dance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn

It kind of reminds of Irish dances.

----------


## Salento

That’s a courtship Pizzica, the song is pretty much in Leccese dialect.

----------


## Salento

> Are you talking about this dance?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn
> 
> It kind of reminds of Irish dances.


from desperation to rebirth










They were bitten by spiders and they'll be out of control until the spider dies.
The feet (Dance) is to step-on and kill the spider.

----------


## Yetos

> Are you talking about this dance?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn
> 
> It kind of reminds of Irish dances.


Bigsnake,

that is healing dance.
burn tarantella's poison before burns you
intoxination via dance, as bacchian philosophy, not by food as christian fasting.





the scene reminds me the sacred Μαιναδες the Maenads, or the κλυδωνες-κλοδονες , cludones, even some Momos dances which exist today.
and the intoxination via dance 
no typical steps, 
and as I know it was danced with the foot heel, not with foot 'fingers'
*Notice the Αναστεναρια*, anastenaria, the coal dancers of Thrace, which is also a healing dance, and has no steps, and is danced with heel




the rythm sends me also to Cretan and Pontic kotsari 
but these have certain steps, 
who knows,

*Salento were there in the area any Lyra players? 


* 


Anyway Salento if it is Bacchian philoshophy dance,
Then it is very very old, Much much older than Christianity stabilization
which means this population has memories and traditions before lets say 300-400 AD (mediolanum Roman treaty for Christianity) not to go much back to 6th century BC which is possible

----------


## Salento

@Yetos La Lira Bizantina? 

Yes, and they used to make it too.

but not in my Life Time. LOL

----------


## bigsnake49

In Greece there are about 3 Lyras. Constantinoupoli/Thracian Lyra, Pontian Lyra and Cretan Lyra. Isn't there a Calabrian Lyra?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awQXZa4M8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOckxRSrnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsiionGPPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9M...&frags=pl%2Cwn

----------


## Angela

It went from that frightening exorcism to this... 


This is what I see them doing in the piazzas in the summer during the festival. Once the beat gets into your bloodstream you can't stop. 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEdMIqd_mB8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHHS1bbJeQM

Really good professional dancers, male and female...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-NDwsO1mFc

----------


## Angela

> In Greece there are about 3 Lyras. Constantinoupoli/Thracian Lyra, Pontian Lyra and Cretan Lyra. Isn't there a Calabrian Lyra?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awQXZa4M8I
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOckxRSrnA
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsiionGPPg
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9M...&frags=pl%2Cwn


Yes, there are still people who play a lira in Calabria.

Siderno, near some of my husband's people. 



You can see they still use the piffero too, as we do in the north. Not my favorite instrument.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tncjZh_BqMo


Bova, where some Grecanico speakers still live.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vP5mgNSVKo

----------


## Yetos

yup 
As I expected

with lyra these dances are closer to my ear sounds, and seem more natural to me, 
with hamonicas etc seem more W European

Algela I used your link
I think the 1rst version can easily pass as modern Helladic song

----------


## Angela

The Salento in Byzantine times-in English

https://www.academia.edu/31321524/Ro...eighth_century

In Italian:
https://www.academia.edu/372017/Tra_...3%A0_bizantina

----------


## Salento

> The Salento in Byzantine times-in English
> 
> https://www.academia.edu/31321524/Ro...eighth_century
> 
> In Italian:
> https://www.academia.edu/372017/Tra_...3%A0_bizantina


As a kid we used to play soccer in one of the Archeological sites.
At that time those were just ruins. :)

----------


## kostop

I'm a native Greek speaker. Watching the videos, I understand 50% of the words. Reading the transcript I understand everything. The music is also incredibly similar to traditional Greek music. I really hope I'll be able to visit these places one day.

----------


## Angela

> Many Albanians indeed suffer from ultranationalism induced fantasies. History , though,tells us another story, that the genetic influence was the other way around.
> A very small nation(300 000 people 200 years ago based on ottoman censuses) that constantly was fed with the genetics of its neighbors due to Islam and the ottoman military structures.
> Muslim Albanians were defacto the ruling class of much of the lower Balkans. Turks entrusted them , as kinds of subcontractors, to keep the ''law and order'' in the region. Aside from the incorporation of most Muslim converts in the (usually of mixed populations, other than the northern Albania) areas where Albanians lived into the Albanian ethnic group (in the albanian dominated pashaliks, Yanena and scutari,and rumeli eyalet in general) the child harvest , known as paidomazoma/yenitsaroi with Greeks and Janissaries in english, abducted and converted to Islam hundreds of thousands of children over the 300 years of the institution. In the Areas that Albanians ruled, those Janissaries corps were incorporated into the Albanian nation (due to the Muslim faith). Thus the peculiarities of Albanian Islam which was traditionally heavily influenced from the Bektashi order(yenissaries were all followers of that sect) due to the enormous impact of those corps to the Albanian society and ethnic group.


Now, you're doing it. You've earned yourself an infraction. This is not going to turn into another flame war between Greeks and Albanians. 

As for the Griko language, it is protected by the Italian government, so any suggestion that it is considered a "threat" is absurd. Get your facts straight. So, by the way, is the Albanian language. That short distance across the Adriatic makes a huge difference. 

Any more of this and I'll just start deleting posts.

----------


## Johane Derite

Italian people and government has proven themselves very fair when it comes to conservation and respect of minority rights/languages, if the balkans was like that there would be 90% less fighting

----------


## Parapolitikos

LAdy those ARE facts.
And aint playing your silly forum games. Grow up.

----------


## Angela

By all means continue, and you'll be out of here sooner.

----------


## Salento

> I'm a native Greek speaker. Watching the videos, I understand 50% of the words. Reading the transcript I understand everything. The music is also incredibly similar to traditional Greek music. I really hope I'll be able to visit these places one day.


Thanks Kostop, 
If you noticed any word or particular accents that relate or remind you of place in Greece you’re welcome to opine. :)

----------


## Demetrios

I recall seeing one in Calabria, very similar to the one we have in Crete. It didn't surprise me, since this type of Lyra originates from Byzantine Greeks, which controlled most of southern Italy and Sicily even up until the 11th century AD if i recall correctly.

----------


## bigsnake49

I am trying to trace my wife's grandmother's origins. She came from Calabria but I have no idea from which city or town. Yes I checked the Ellis Island records and the only thing I got from them is they misspelled her last name Celano from Celana and the last place of residence or birth is Cazanova. Now there was/is a neighborhood in Napoli named Casanova around via Casanova. I don't think there is a place in Calabria named Casanova but I could be wrong. Is there a centralized resource for genealogical research in Italy?

----------


## Angela

> I am trying to trace my wife's grandmother's origins. She came from Calabria but I have no idea from which city or town. Yes I checked the Ellis Island records and the only thing I got from them is they misspelled her last name Celano from Celana and the last place of residence or birth is Cazanova. Now there was/is a neighborhood in Napoli named Casanova around via Casanova. I don't think there is a place in Calabria named Casanova but I could be wrong. Is there a centralized resource for genealogical research in Italy?


No, there isn't, unfortunately.

I sometimes use the Catholic directory of parishes, because people might list that as place of origin instead of the comune, but even there, there is no Casanova or Casanova in Calabria.
http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...try&country=it

I highly doubt a Calabrian would say they were Neapolitan or vice versa, however. They were virtual "foreigners" to each other until they met here.

There is a Casabona in Calabria, however, and the people at Ellis Island are notorious for bungling the records. I know of a Chini who became Kinney. They spent the rest of the their lives down three generations explaining they weren't Irish. :)

http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...ecity=Casabona

It's in the provincia of Cortone.

According to this site, there's a lot of "Celanos" in Calabria. 
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.XOA9Q8hKhPY

There's only one Celana, and it is in Campania, but when there's only one variant like that I find it's almost always that this family is mis-spelling it.

If it were me I would write to both parishes in Casabona Calabria to inquire.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...rical_Records)

http://geocities.ws/paulanigro/itali...m-letters.html

You could also try to hunt out the parish church in the Cazanova neighborhood in Napoli, just in case.

----------


## bigsnake49

> No, there isn't, unfortunately.
> 
> I sometimes use the Catholic directory of parishes, because people might list that as place of origin instead of the comune, but even there, there is no Casanova or Casanova in Calabria.
> http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...try&country=it
> 
> I highly doubt a Calabrian would say they were Neapolitan or vice versa, however. They were virtual "foreigners" to each other until they met here.
> 
> There is a Casabona in Calabria, however, and the people at Ellis Island are notorious for bungling the records. I know of a Chini who became Kinney. They spent the rest of the their lives down three generations explaining they weren't Irish. :)
> 
> ...


She boarded the boat to the US out of Napoli and I am thinking she might have stayed in the Casanova neighborhood while waiting for her boat. She lied about her age to get on the boat (she was 15 and declared herself to be 19).

----------


## kostop

> Thanks Kostop, 
> If you noticed any word or particular accents that relate or remind you of place in Greece you’re welcome to opine. :)


The accents in the videos reminded me more of Peloponisos, and Cyprus. But they would not sound "alien" anywhere in Greece, especially in rural areas where "pitch accent" still survives.

----------


## bigsnake49

> She boarded the boat to the US out of Napoli and I am thinking she might have stayed in the Casanova neighborhood while waiting for her boat. She lied about her age to get on the boat (she was 15 and declared herself to be 19).


Hehe, figured it out. Actually went to the ship's passenger manifest and after a few false starts deciphered the handwriting. She came from Terranova da Sibari, Cosenza, Calabria.There are a few Celanos in the area still. :).

Guess which town is to the west of it. Yes, yes Spezzano Albanese! :Laughing:  One of the people from there is right above her in the passenger manifest.

----------


## Salento

> The accents in the videos reminded me more of Peloponisos, and Cyprus. But they would not sound "alien" anywhere in Greece, especially in rural areas where "pitch accent" still survives.


That’s great, thanks.
I’m not “technically” Griko-Salentino, but I am Salentino (I think, LOL), so I share these results with you:

----------


## kostop

> That’s great, thanks.
> I’m not “technically” Griko-Salentino, but I am Salentino (I think, LOL), so I share these results with you:


Wow, this is very interesting, thanks for sharing. Which tool/calculator did you use to get this breakdown if I may ask? I'm embarrassed to admit that I only have my FTDNA results which unfortunately do not provide such level of detail. 
The link to the Aegean islands in your results is particularly interesting, as some of these areas are known to have colonized the southern part of the Italian peninsula in antiquity. However, it's worth noting that this also worked the other way around, especially in places like Kalymnos, Kythera and Peloponisos for example, as these areas received migrants from Italy during Roman and medieval times, also when they were ruled by Venice.

----------


## Salento

It’s a K36 oracle spreadsheet.
It was part of an nMonte package download.
The original link doesn't work anymore.

----------


## Ownstyler

While we are waiting on some new data, here are the PCAs from the paper that compared Griko speakers from Puglia and Sicily with Italians, Albanians and Greeks of different regions.

Btw, the continental Greek samples from that leaked image which was posted in another thread might actually come from this paper since the regional breakdown seems the same. The samples are small.





This one includes all results from Italy, Albania, Greece and Cyprus, and median plots of each region:

----------


## Angela

The Calabrian Grecanico speakers seem to have interbred so much they've wandered off on their own. If you could see the mountain tops in which they live you'd know why. :)

----------


## bigsnake49

> The Calabrian Grecanico speakers seem to have interbred so much they've wandered off on their own. If you could see the mountain tops in which they live you'd know why. :)


They seemed to really have wondered off. The Salentino Grikos plot right in with the other Southern Italians and Island Greeks.

----------


## Angela

> They seemed to really have wondered off. The Salentino Grikos plot right in with the other Southern Italians and Island Greeks.


That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.

----------


## bigsnake49

> That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.


It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.

----------


## Angela

> It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.


I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

----------


## bigsnake49

> I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.
> 
> All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.


While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.

----------


## Angela

> While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.


Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.
> 
> Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.


Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.

----------


## xri34

I don't know about any other studies on Griko but this is the result of an Apulian from Brindisi a city near Grecia Salentina:

Eurogens K15
#	Population	Percent
1	East_Med	26.88
2	West_Med	17.78
3	West_Asian	14.99
4	North_Sea	11.89
5	Atlantic	11.5
6	Baltic	9.45
7	Eastern_Euro	3.13
8	Red_Sea	2.51
9	Oceanian	1.39
10	Amerindian	0.49

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Central_Greek	4.16
2	East_Sicilian	5.98
3	Greek_Thessaly	6.07
4	South_Italian	6.73
5	Greek	6.88
6	Italian_Abruzzo	7
7	Ashkenazi	7.56
8	West_Sicilian	8.97
9	Tuscan	10.96
10	Italian_Jewish	11.45
11	Sephardic_Jewish	12.95
12	Algerian_Jewish	13.13
13	Bulgarian	13.49
14	Romanian	15.67
15	Tunisian_Jewish	16.62
16	North_Italian	16.73
17	Cyprian	17.13
18	Libyan_Jewish	17.24
19	Serbian	19.2
20	Turkish	19.44

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	66.9%	Central_Greek	+	33.1%	Greek_Thessaly	@	3.32
2	53.6%	Greek_Thessaly	+	46.4%	South_Italian	@	3.36
3	77.3%	Greek_Thessaly	+	22.7%	Cyprian	@	3.56
4	94.8%	Central_Greek	+	5.2%	Ukrainian	@	3.76
5	94.7%	Central_Greek	+	5.3%	Ukrainian_Lviv	@	3.76
6	93.2%	Central_Greek	+	6.8%	Moldavian	@	3.78
7	95.9%	Central_Greek	+	4.1%	Estonian	@	3.8
8	96%	Central_Greek	+	4%	Lithuanian	@	3.8
9	93.9%	Central_Greek	+	6.1%	Hungarian	@	3.8
10	95.3%	Central_Greek	+	4.7%	South_Polish	@	3.83
11	88.9%	Central_Greek	+	11.1%	Bulgarian	@	3.83
12	94.4%	Central_Greek	+	5.6%	Croatian	@	3.86
13	90.9%	Central_Greek	+	9.1%	Romanian	@	3.87
14	95.9%	Central_Greek	+	4.1%	Southwest_Russian	@	3.87
15	96.1%	Central_Greek	+	3.9%	Finnish	@	3.88
16	95.9%	Central_Greek	+	4.1%	Polish	@	3.88
17	96.1%	Central_Greek	+	3.9%	Belorussian	@	3.88
18	95.9%	Central_Greek	+	4.1%	Ukrainian_Belgorod	@	3.88
19	96.4%	Central_Greek	+	3.6%	La_Brana-1	@	3.9
20	96.3%	Central_Greek	+	3.7%	Swedish	@	3.9

Dodecad K12b
#	Population	Percent
1	Caucasus	34
2	Atlantic_Med	26.6
3	North_European	17.8
4	Southwest_Asian	10.88
5	Gedrosia	7.58
6	Northwest_African	2.49
7	East_Asian	0.66

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Greek (Dodecad)	5.92
2	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	7.2
3	Sicilian (Dodecad)	7.52
4	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	8.16
5	Ashkenazi (Dodecad)	8.53
6	C_Italian (Dodecad)	8.57
7	O_Italian (Dodecad)	9.6
8	Tuscan (HGDP)	12.05
9	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	13
10	TSI30 (Metspalu)	13.17
11	Morocco_Jews (Behar)	15.37
12	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	17.3
13	Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)	17.82
14	N_Italian (Dodecad)	18.52
15	Romanians (Behar)	18.81
16	Turkish (Dodecad)	19.62
17	Cypriots (Behar)	20.26
18	North_Italian (HGDP)	20.26
19	Turks (Behar)	22.06
20	Lebanese (Behar)	23.75

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	65%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	35%	Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad)	@	1.58
2	66.8%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	33.2%	CEU30 (1000Genomes)	@	1.72
3	66.2%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	33.8%	Dutch (Dodecad)	@	1.74
4	66.9%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	33.1%	English (Dodecad)	@	1.76
5	68.5%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	31.5%	Orkney (1000Genomes)	@	1.79
6	68%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	32%	Argyll (1000Genomes)	@	1.82
7	66.5%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	33.5%	Kent (1000Genomes)	@	1.84
8	68.4%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	31.6%	Orcadian (HGDP)	@	1.89
9	67.7%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	32.3%	British_Isles (Dodecad)	@	1.94
10	68.2%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	31.8%	Irish (Dodecad)	@	1.94
11	67.6%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	32.4%	British (Dodecad)	@	2.17
12	76%	O_Italian (Dodecad)	+	24%	Georgia_Jews (Behar)	@	2.2
13	67.2%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	32.8%	Cornwall (1000Genomes)	@	2.24
14	77.4%	O_Italian (Dodecad)	+	22.6%	Iranian_Jews (Behar)	@	2.48
15	92.9%	Greek (Dodecad)	+	7.1%	Brahui (HGDP)	@	2.53
16	92%	Greek (Dodecad)	+	8%	Makrani (HGDP)	@	2.58
17	74.6%	O_Italian (Dodecad)	+	25.4%	Druze (HGDP)	@	2.59
18	92.4%	Greek (Dodecad)	+	7.6%	Balochi (HGDP)	@	2.65
19 76.7%	O_Italian (Dodecad)	+	23.3%	Iraq_Jews (Behar)	@	2.66
20	88.2%	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	11.8%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	2.69

Seems very close to Greek Mainlanders. He is very close to my results as well.

----------


## Angela

> Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.


It is today, but that wasn't always the case.

----------


## Angela

> It is today, but that wasn't always the case.




_Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002)._ _The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN_ _9789004125414__. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza._

----------


## bigsnake49

> _Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002)._ _The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN_ _9789004125414__. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza._


I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).

----------


## Salento

> I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).



... not so fast :) 

Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

I guess it depends on who you ask.

----------


## bigsnake49

> ... not so fast :) 
> 
> Aspromonte = Rough Mountain
> 
> because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”
> 
> I guess it depends on who you ask.


But are they white?  :Laughing: 

BTW doesn't Italian put adjectives after the subject so should it not have been Monteaspro like Montenegro?

----------


## Salento

Should Would Could ...
It doesn’t matter.

i can say:
Grecia Antica
Antica Grecia

Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)

----------


## bigsnake49

> Should Would Could ...
> It doesn’t matter.
> 
> i can say:
> Grecia Antica
> Antica Grecia
> 
> Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)


In Greek it is preferred to have the adjective before the subject but it can be be the other way around if it is used for emphasis.

----------


## Salento

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljd7KrBZJMc&frags=wn


_Spectacular Spectacle of Griko Celebration of the Year
_... is considered as the Anthem of the Grikos ..._
(Salento - August 2019)_




and: Aremu - Elisa in Griko
https://youtu.be/51WAPp51ZAc

----------


## Ancestry

I read about the Griko people years ago and had the chance to drop by Salento while touring southern Italy. Disappointingly all of the Griko people seem to now speak only Italian, with the older Griko language exclusively maintained by the older generation as an in-home dialect. I hypothesize they would still show up as mainly Greek with some Italian and Turkish on genetic tests.

----------


## Salento

*some more Salento (me :) results:*














_(undetermined) That’s where I get my Pizzica Superpower/ Taranta Senses!_

----------


## ihype02

> I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.
> 
> All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.


Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?

----------


## Angela

> Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?


That's interesting. 

Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area. 

Distance to:
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

9.81282834
Ashkenazi

10.58188547
Ashkenazy_Jews

11.13472945
Greek_Crete

12.01633658
Italy_Calabria

12.25316808
Italy_Apulia

12.72192065
Italy_Sicily

12.85049439
Italy_Campania

13.41035421
Greek



Maybe it's this one?

Or this?
Distance to:
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

12.51731201
Sephardic_Jews

13.60231966
Ashkenazi

14.18309521
Italy_Calabria

14.29497814
Ashkenazy_Jews

14.44845666
Morocco_Jews

14.65609041
Italy_Campania

16.09613944
Italy_Sicily



I wonder if there's a difference in quality? Why, otherwise, do they talk about only one such sample?

As for "Roman Era" samples, as I said, we only have one, and the sample is French like.

If Duarte reads this perhaps he'll check if there are other "Roman Era" samples from Empuries.

Also, I'm not sure where the Mycenaeans plot there, although I would guess probably within the Aegean Bronze Age cluster somewhere.

One of the flaws in Dodecad 12b, and all calculators have them, is that it has difficulty distinguishing between Southern Italians/Aegean Greeks/European Jews.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.

The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.
> 
> The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.


Very interesting, thanks for the information. Do you know if there are any publications or academic papers dealing with this issue specifically?

----------


## Angela

> Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?


I'm going to give this another try, both because my answer to you was rather perfunctory and because it's a puzzle, and I like to try to answer puzzles. :)

In the part of the Supplement dedicated to Empuries, they talk about three Empuries 2 samples, or samples which carry Mycenaean like ancestry, and all carry Ydna J. (Empuries was settled by Greeks from Phocaea in 575 BCE.)

18205 300-100 BCE labeled Hellinistic
18208 370-204 BCE labeled Hellinistic
18216 57-208 CE labeled Roman Period

However, in the Tables there are two more Empuries 2 type samples, for a total of 5. They didn’t include the female samples with that profile, perhaps because given the males with that profile were all Ydna J the inferences were stronger?

18215 400-350 BCE labeled Greek
18338 100-200 CE labeled Roman Period

Now there’s a correspondence between this data and the five samples in the PCA which you provided which land in the “Aegean Bronze Age” space.

The PCA labels the sample closest to Sicily and almost out of that Aegean Bronze Age space Greek Empuries. So, I think that’s 18215.

The samples labeled Hellenistic are clearly smack in the middle of that space. So those are undoubtedly 18205 and 18208.

There’s no Late Roman sample which meets the Empuries 2 criteria, so that leaves us with two Roman period samples: 18216 and 18338.

I’ve already run 18205 and 18208 (detailed results upthread), which both come out as closest to European Jews and Island Greeks and Southern Italians. Other calculators might be able to sort out that overlap between those groups.

Unfortunately, I can’t find 18216 (a male sample), and 18338 (a female sample), nor the “Greek” sample, 18215 on the list of samples for which we have coordinates.
Perhaps Duarte can help us out with coordinates, but there may be a problem, because I inquired about it before and I think he said it wasn’t possible.

Anyway, the three samples the author was discussing as being “Mycenaean” like were all males, so my guess is that the “Roman Era” sample which lands within the Aegean Bronze Age space is 18216, which leaves 18338, a female sample, as the “outlier” or “atypical” sample.

Until and if we get coordinates for these three samples, this other PCA from the sample is a bit helpful.
It looks to me as if the “atypical” sample is much more Armenian Bronze Age like, even though it is still labeled Empuries 2 in the Tables. I’m not sure I’d agree with that, but without access to coordinates I don’t see how it could be tested.



I really wish we could see what 18215 is like.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Johane: Not off the top of my head. Most of what you are going to find are articles from journals or publications that deal with Catholic Theology and the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. From an historical perspective, It was the Council of Basel-Ferrera-Florence (1431-1449AD) that attempted to reunite Rome and Constantinople. Some Eastern Churches did in fact re-enter communion with Rome shortly thereafter, others have over the succeeding years.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum17.htm

http://www.katolsk.no/organisasjon/v..._italoalbanian

A recent Vatican article on Pope Francis and Italo-Albanians from the Eparchy of Lungro in Consenza, Calabria. THe Lungro Eparchy governs some 30,000 Italo-Albanians from the regions of Abruzzo, Apugila, Calabria and Basilicata. The Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily governs some 23,000 Italo-Albanians there. There is also as I noted a Monastery in Rome that serves Italo-Albanians in Rome. All of these Italo-Albanian Catholics are part of the Byzantine-Greek Tradition. By that I do not suggest anything to do with ethnicity. The term Byzantine-Greek in this context is purely a Liturgical and Theological term. 

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/n...niversary.html

On another note, it was my maternal Great Grandfather (my mothers Mother's family) who was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. Her Father was Roman-Latin Rite. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a theological thread but I hope this helps.

----------


## ihype02

Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.

----------


## Angela

> Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.


Out of the five samples which are labeled Empuries 2 and which Olalde considers as "Mycenaean" like, all three of the men carry yDna J. They couldn't resolve it more than that, so I don't know if it's J2a.

Until we get samples from Greece, mainland and islands, from the Classical Era, I don't think there's any way of knowing which of these Empuries samples are closest. 

I do wish we had coordinates for the three we are missing so we'd have a bit more data.

----------


## Angela

Duarte has kindly provided us with coordinates for two more of the Empuries samples.

Distance to:
I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)

7.62002625
Morocco_Jews

10.62696570
Sephardic_Jews

13.44065436
Italy_Calabria

14.30960115
Italy_Sicily

14.89313936
Ashkenazi

15.44070918
Ashkenazy_Jews

15.98748886
Greek_Crete

16.03119727
Italy_Campania

17.64413471
Italy_Abruzzo

18.14439219
Italy_Apulia

19.85592859
Nusayri_Turkey

21.33929708
Cypriots

21.53421366
Italy_Marche

21.88000457
Turk_West_BlackSea

21.88404213
Turk_Central_West

21.90326811
Italy_Lazio

21.94899087
Turk_Southwest

22.00821665
Lebanese

22.05038775
Greek_Cappadocia

22.22957939
Turk_Northwest

22.39646401
Greek

22.47247650
Turk_Anatolia

23.29326512
Turk_Central_East

23.31757706
Crimean_Tatar_Coast

23.41663298
Turk_South




Distance to:
I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)

7.62002625
Morocco_Jews

10.62696570
Sephardic_Jews

13.44065436
Italy_Calabria

14.30960115
Italy_Sicily

14.89313936
Ashkenazi

15.44070918
Ashkenazy_Jews

15.98748886
Greek_Crete

16.03119727
Italy_Campania

17.64413471
Italy_Abruzzo

18.14439219
Italy_Apulia

19.85592859
Nusayri_Turkey

21.33929708
Cypriots

21.53421366
Italy_Marche

21.88000457
Turk_West_BlackSea

21.88404213
Turk_Central_West

21.90326811
Italy_Lazio

21.94899087
Turk_Southwest

22.00821665
Lebanese

22.05038775
Greek_Cappadocia

22.22957939
Turk_Northwest

22.39646401
Greek

22.47247650
Turk_Anatolia

23.29326512
Turk_Central_East

23.31757706
Crimean_Tatar_Coast

23.41663298
Turk_South




I think 14338 is definitely the one which is outside the Aegean Bronze box. It’s one of the women so perhaps admixed?
Is it being pulled partly by the bit of North African admixture, maybe Carthaginian? It’s also being pulled by the Caucasus, though, which is why it probably ends up in Armenian Bronze Age despite the 4% Mozabite.
*Target: I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)
Distance: 3.1490% / 3.14896747 | ADC: 0.25x*

87.0
Morocco_Jews



4.0
Mozabite



3.6
Nganassan



3.4
Sephardic_Jews



2.0
Georgian_Adjara



There’s something about Moroccan Jews. Could they be the closest of western Jews to the heavily EN like originals?

----------


## bigsnake49

Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?

----------


## Angela

> Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?


We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like". 

So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.

What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.

----------


## kingjohn

> That's interesting. 
> 
> Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
> Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area. 
> 
> Distance to:
> I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
> 
> 9.81282834
> ...



thanks for sharing angela  :Smile: 
very interesting  :Thinking: 
and durate kudos for all your work  :Good Job: 


_also here is k12b values of i8215 the greek_ - 

tomenoble uploaded him to gedmatch back in the day :)

greek,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.0 5,0.33 

*he is different from the Hellenistic period i8205* 
*he is more closer to campania and calabria than ashkenazim jews ( although jews are still up there)*

Distance to:
greek

*9.97631224*
*Italy_Campania*

*10.38538866*
*Italy_Calabria*

10.51538397
Ashkenazi

11.15872753
Ashkenazy_Jews

11.33960758
Sephardic_Jews

11.61857930
Italy_Sicily

12.02919713
Italy_Abruzzo

13.46134837
Morocco_Jews

13.63947580
Greek

13.89471482
Greek_Crete

13.99689780
Italy_Apulia

14.13668271
Italy_Marche

15.38203283
Italy_Lazio

16.08403917
France_Corsica

16.78521075
Italy_Romagna

18.83907774
Italy_Tuscany

20.47784361
Italy_Emilia

20.49139576
Cypriots

20.60435148
Crimean_Tatar_Coast

21.05207368
Italy_Liguria

21.69961060
Albanian_Kosovo

21.82012145
Greek_Cappadocia

22.66870971
Albanian_North

23.41968492
Italy_Lombardy

24.48508117
Nusayri_Turkey

----------


## bigsnake49

> We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like". 
> 
> So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.
> 
> What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.


Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?

----------


## Angela

> Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?


I ran all the Empuries samples for another thread. One is Catalan like, one is French like, one rather Northern European. 18205,18208, and 18215 are "Mycenaean" like. Unfortunately, coordinates don't seem to be available for 18216, which is from the Roman Period. Then there's 18338, also from the Roman period, which is not quite in the Aegean Bronze Age cluster. 

I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1,4.28,0.00,0.00,0.16 ,51.43,35.70,0.98,0.00,0.00,0.00,6.48,0.97
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,1.20,0.00,2.31,0.00, 22.09,16.57,0.00,0.00,20.72,2.25,34.86,0.00
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1,10.54,1.38,0.82,0.29 ,39.66,38.43,1.88,0.00,1.52,0.00,3.76,1.71
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,0.47,0.00,4.06,0.00, 36.68,5.45,0.00,0.00,12.64,0.00,40.71,0.00
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.77,0.00,1.74,0.0 0,48.23,30.32,0.21,0.60,0.79,0.17,11.18,0.00
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,4.28,0.01,0.00,2.2 1,53.30,32.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.31,6.28,0.00
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.96,0.00,0.00,0.0 0,56.45,25.38,5.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical,4.06,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,37.75,47.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,10.75,0 .00
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.42,0.00,0.00,2.2 2,55.45,29.43,1.50,0.00,0.00,2.76,2.22,0.00
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.5 3,55.32,34.65,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.18,1.31

R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0 ,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0. 14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65 ,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33 .19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.1 4,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08 ,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26 ,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.8 5,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78 ,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.1 9,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47. 70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0

If I run the Empuries samples against R850, the "Cretan like" Iron Age Roman sample, this is what I get. The distances for the "Mycenaean like samples" are 12, 15, and 18.

Distance to:
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea

12.18268443
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

15.50707903
18215_Greek_Empuries

17.79902525
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

46.47271995
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

51.43860126
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1

52.38937774
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical

53.93703551
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

54.07582824
I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1

54.28650293
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

55.26607368
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

56.66914857
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1





Against R437, the sample which has about half its ancestry from more "eastern" sources than the other Iron Age Roman and Etruscan samples, the Empuries samples we're looking for are at a distance of 6,12, and 16.
Distance to:
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata

6.98619353
18215_Greek_Empuries

11.86266833
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

16.17631602
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

34.53527327
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

41.37854517
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

41.74071394
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

42.12581987
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1

42.32467365
I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1

42.97417713
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

44.20580505
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

44.26086420
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical



One sample does better.

Then, against the Latin sample R851, the Empuries ones which matter for this analysis are at 29,33,37.

Distance to:
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea

11.87067816
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

16.89187971
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

17.02914854
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

17.99480203
I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1

18.60851149
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

20.67380226
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

25.17323181
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1

27.19949632
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical

29.31806269
18215_Greek_Empuries

32.88316286
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

37.18014658
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2



Against R1016, the one "upper class" Iron Age sample: the Mycenaean like samples are at the bottom.
Distance to:
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima

14.70188083
I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

20.12314588
I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

20.71329525
I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

21.66394470
I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

21.95384704
I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1

23.20906719
I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1

25.16385702
18215_Greek_Empuries

27.12510461
I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1

28.74794427
I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

30.75085202
I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical

33.98077692
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2



Or, we could do it another way. Run each Empuries sample against all the ancient samples. Now that Vahaduo has added all our coordinates under K12b, it's easy.
Distance to:
I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

10.41409622
R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

10.42940075
R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

11.12061149
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

11.17104740
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

11.54777901
R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

11.71939418
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

12.18268443
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea

12.46934641
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio

12.49862392
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

12.52843167
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

12.54786834
R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro

12.57320166
R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese

12.94739356
R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

12.97422059
R81_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis

13.34426843
R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina

13.35137821
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

13.41112225
R66_Imperial_Era_ANAS

13.41316890
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

13.42639937
R34_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

13.52872130
R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese

13.68587593
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

13.80433990
R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo

13.95713438
R123_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce

14.02574775
R1545_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese

14.05658920
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis




You can do all the others the same way and see if there are differences, but I doubt they'll be really different.

----------


## cybernautic

> I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.


The Sarno paper doesn't conclude exactly that Mainland Greece is closer to all of Balkans than to Southern Italy

The Balkanians truly close to Mainland Greece are the ones sharing an immediate geographical border with Greece
the further you move away from these borders into Inland Balkans the less similar do the people become to Greeks

----------


## iopk

Greetings to the community!

What would be the most accurate/reliable ancestry DNA test to take?

I am Greek and having read all six pages of this fascinating threat, it peaked my interest in finding out more about it.

----------


## peloponnesian

> Greetings to the community!
> 
> What would be the most accurate/reliable ancestry DNA test to take?


23andMe is the most accurate, but not without its own problems (for example, assigning lots of Italian ancestry to Greeks). AncestryDNA is also decent, especially since they added their Aegean category. Where in Greece are you from?

----------


## iopk

Thanks for the info, Peloponnesian.

Father: Mani/Megara, Mother: Mani/Thiva

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> 23andMe is the most accurate, but not without its own problems (for example, assigning lots of Italian ancestry to Greeks). AncestryDNA is also decent, especially since they added their Aegean category. Where in Greece are you from?


I think 23 and Me vs. Ancestry in terms of accuracy is relative to which population they are trying to assign admixture/ethnic estimates. For me Ancestry is more accurate than 23andMe. 23 and Me does give you more comprehensive information vs. Ancestry (i.e. Y and mtdna haplogroups, Neanderthal admixture and Health reports). So I think they both are worth getting.

just my view. Cheers.

----------

