# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Bronze Age >  J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

## Maciamo

The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE. 

It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame. 

Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed *typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a)* that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.

This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages. 

I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both *J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period.* J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).

J2b was obviously not the only Illyrian lineage. I have explained here that the large-scale Yamna migration that reached central and western Europe mostly bypassed the heavily settled Neolithic cultures of 'Old Europe' and followed the Danube until the Hungarian Plain. From there the main branch expanded to Bohemia and Germany, but another branch may have gone south to the Dinaric Alps. It is possible that the branch that colonised Illyria from 1600 BCE were *late Steppe migrants from the Volga region, maybe pushed out of the Steppe by the northern R1a tribes of the Srubna cultures* (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2 lineages might have considerably increased its original frequency after reaching Illyria. Nowadays J2b is far more common in the Dinaric Alps than R1b, but it would be unthinkable that R1b lineages weren't also present among the original Illyrians, considering the time frame.

More interestingly, the Dinaric Alps have an unusually high incidence of Y-haplogroup *Q1a*, especially on the Croatian island of Hvar (6%), which presumably acted as a refuge for the ancient Illyrian population after the Slavic migrations. If the Illyrians originated in the Volga-Ural region, it wouldn't be that surprising to find also Siberian lineages like Q1a, especially since Q1a has been attested in the Khvalynsk culture alongside R1a and R1b in the Samara region. So the origins of the Illyrians may be in a Middle Volga during the Khvalynsk period.

Linguistically not much is known about the Illyrian language. It probably belonged to the Centum branch (linked to R1b-L23) but that is not even clear. If it originated in the Volga region, but was not R1a/Satem, that would explain why it is so different from the West Pontic Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches. 





*Mycenaean J2b*

Additionally, J2b is also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Grecia). However it is almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. That would give us both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and who knows, maybe also the Albanians) as Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. In fact, the only one that seems possible is R1b-Z2103.

*Could the Hittites and Armenians have left the Steppe around the same time as the Illyrians and Mycenaeans?*

It might be useful to put all this in the context of two other hotly debated historical migrations: those of the ancient Armenians and the Anatolian branch of IE speakers, including the Hittites. Both make their appearance in Armenia and Anatolia in this fateful period following the Srubna conquest of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe circa 2000 BCE, and like the Illyrians and Mycenaeans really make their entry on the political scene around 1600 BCE. How much of a coincidence is this that these four mysterious branches of Indo-Europeans all appear exactly at the same time out of nowhere? What's more, all four languages are difficult to classify in the IE tree, with Illyrian, Mycenaean Greek and Armenian that display both elements of Centum and Satem.

As for the Anatolian branch, I originally thought that it was among the minority of early Steppe (Sredny Stog) invaders that took political power in some parts of the Balkans (probably Bulgaria) and remained there or in western Anatolia (e.g. Troy) for over 2000 years before really expanding across Anatolia. But since the Hittites suddenly show up around 1600 BCE _with chariots,_ which were not invented until 2000 BCE in the Volga-Ural region, and did not spread fully across the Pontic Steppe (and Central Asia) until 1800 BCE, it is not impossible that that Anatolian branch remained secluded somewhere in or near the Eurasian Steppe until that time. Who knows, they might even have come from the Urals or the Andronovo culture (I know how outlandish that sounds) and came all the way to Anatolia, maybe via Turkmenistan and Iran, or across the Caucasus, rather than via the Balkans. After all, the Hittites are the first Anatolian IE people to appear in the record, and they first showed up in northeast Anatolia, not in western Anatolia. Furthermore, the Lycians and Lydians do not appear in western Anatolia until 1200 BCE, around the time of the demise of the Hittite Empire. So the movement went from east to west, not the other way round. 

It has recently been suggested by the Reich team that the Indo-Iranians did not descend from Sintashta (the inventors of the chariot) or Andronovo. This would mean that the R1a-Z93 Indo-Iranian branch originated in northern European Russia (Abashevo or Fatyanovo–Balanovo). These R1a tribes would have expanded south to establish the Srubna culture, pushing the Mycenaeans and Illyrians away to Southeast Europe. Obviously Sintashta and Andronovo were also R1a-dominant cultures, but maybe not Z93. In any case they possessed EEF admixture not found in South Asians today, so there must have been another source of R1a-Z93 for the Indo-Iranian migrations. R1b might have been in Central Asia since the Afanasevo culture (contemporary to Yamna). Successive migrations of R1a from northern Russia (Sintashta and Indo-Iranians) eventually pushed R1b-Z2103 tribes south to Iran, Armenia and Anatolia. However, they would have acquired chariots from them.

If the Anatolian branch originated in Central Asia, they would have belonged to R1b-Z2103 (found in Anatolia), maybe mixed with some R1a-S224 from Sintashta/Andronovo, but also Q1a or Q1b lineages from Central Asia (also present in Anatolia). Because of the later Turkish migrations, it is easy to assume that all Q1a or Q1b in Turkey is of Turkic origin. But some, and especially Q1b1, may have come during the Middle to Late Bronze Age with the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia. Until recently I thought that it was only the Indo-Iranians, but they might have been preceded by others, like the Armenians and the Hittites.

The really interesting thing is that J2b is also found in Central Asia (at least Kazakhstan), Iran, Armenia and eastern Anatolia, as well as in the Indian subcontinent. So there is also a trail leaving from the Volga-Ural region across Central Asia then moving west to Anatolia and east to India. In fact J2b is found all over the Middle East, and apparently most or all of it dates back to the Bronze Age. I am not sure there is any Neolithic J2b* left. It's either J2b1 or J2b2a1. The question is, which IE tribe brought it there besides the Indo-Aryans? The Mitanni? The Armenians? The Hittites? 

That's a lot to process and hopefully we will know more from the new paper on West Asia that will be published soon.

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## DuPidh

So E-v13 and J2b are both indo European lineages? You have said in another post that they appear to have travel-led together?!

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## Apsurdistan

Here we again this subclade is IE and this one is not theories, based on really scarce and murky evidence. I1 is also found in the Volga populations, Chuvas and Tatars have about 10%+ so I1 is also Indo-European. Those people speak a Turkic language btw.
And what are you saying now that I2 is not Ilyrian?

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## Milan.M

I would also check the Gelonians for distribution of this haplogroups (Hellenes from above Sarmatia) 
For the population near Volga and their J2b but also some other haplogroups that can be found among Greeks one should check the settlement of the Gelonians,formerly Hellenes living by the coast that emigrated in Scythia above Sarmatians,using a tongue partly Greek,partly Scythian in his own time,Herodotus.

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## holderlin

I'm glad someone else doesn't require Hittites in Anatolia by 4000BC 

There was always waves coming out of the steppe, so this model is very fitting. Anatolians may have been driven by Greeks who may have been driven by Iranians or something like that. Probably not so simple, but for West Asia Hittites are newcomers on the historical record, among very sophisticated civilizations that kept track of Anatolia. And Greeks are even later.

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## Azzurro

Maciamo, I think you can find your answer, look at the J2b-L283>Z600 (xZ627) in Bronze Age Armenia dated at 1009 BC, probably moved into Armenia with Hayasa-Azzi, Hayasa=Hayastan (proto-Armenians) they appear around 1500 BC, that J2b can be a rememant of that civilization. Great analysis on the J2b link, makes a lot of sense and was an enjoyable read, great work! :)

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## A. Papadimitriou

> I would also check the Gelonians for distribution of this haplogroups (Hellenes from above Sarmatia) 
> For the population near Volga and their J2b but also some other haplogroups that can be found among Greeks one should check the settlement of the Gelonians,formerly Hellenes living by the coast that emigrated in Scythia above Sarmatians,using a tongue partly Greek,partly Scythian in his own time,Herodotus.


I agree and I have written about it. [I also have placed them in the forest steppe while I believe that the Budini were Uralic speakers].

I want to say though that I personally have said that the Myceneans would have been J2a. Imo even if J2a was 'Minoan' Myceneans could have had it because Linear A and Linear B tablets often appear in the same places.
Not to mention that it's almost impossible to tell if the language(s) of Linear A could have been related to IE or any other language family.

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## DuPidh

> The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE. 
> 
> It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame. 
> 
> Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed *typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a)* that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.
> 
> This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages. 
> 
> I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both *J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period.* J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).
> ...


An article in European Journal suggests that Asian haplogroups is Croatian Islands are remnants of Mongols fighting in alliance with Croats in 6th century. Or could be the remnants of Turks of 1500 ad. Here is the article:
"*Article*_European Journal of Human Genetics_ (2003) *11,* 535–542. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200992
*Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates"*

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## DuPidh

> The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE. 
> 
> It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame. 
> 
> Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed *typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a)* that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.
> 
> This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages. 
> 
> I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both *J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period.* J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).
> ...


So the presence of Asian haplogroups in Croatian Islands does not necessary shows J2 was in proximity with Q

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## Apsurdistan

I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.

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## IronSide

> I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.


You don't understand what Indo-European is  :Petrified: 

Justify your existence ...

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## Apsurdistan

> You don't understand what Indo-European is 
> 
> Justify your existence ...


My existence? Jupiter and Neptune had sex.
That makes more sense btw than your quasi-Nazi IE obsession and theories.

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## Sile

As I agree with post #1 and have been saying for many years that the illyrians migrated from north to south direction reaching Albania not before ~300BC and fighting against Philip of Macedon ( as per historical texts ) , the question I raise from the same paper is

Since these are steppe markers moving north to south in the balkans and in the same paper we have finds of G2a with T1a1 in Bulgaria ( although thousands of years earlier than J2 ) and we know both are found together also in LBK Karlsdorf germany , then is the balkan movements/migrations of people firstly from south ( anatolia ) to north in the Balkans *or* did G2a with T1a1 lead the way for the later J2 peoples from steppe lands?

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## Apsurdistan

So another steppe people who vanished without a trace... that's what you believe about these Ilyrians? 
The balkans must be like some kind of black hole for vanishing of steppe people.

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## DuPidh

> As I agree with post #1 and have been saying for many years that the illyrians migrated from north to south direction reaching Albania not before ~300BC and fighting against Philip of Macedon ( as per historical texts ) , the question I raise from the same paper is
> 
> Since these are steppe markers moving north to south in the balkans and in the same paper we have finds of G2a with T1a1 in Bulgaria ( although thousands of years earlier than J2 ) and we know both are found together also in LBK Karlsdorf germany , then is the balkan movements/migrations of people firstly from south ( anatolia ) to north in the Balkans *or* did G2a with T1a1 lead the way for the later J2 peoples from steppe lands?


The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad

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## DuPidh

> I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.


We don't see magnetism. That does not mean magnetism does not exist. If you have time to google indoeuropean you will see that indo European actually exists

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## Apsurdistan

Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.

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## Angela

One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was *the* marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.

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## Trojet

> One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?
> 
> Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was *the* marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.


While J2b2a-L283 may have expanded from the Steppe to the Balkans during the early Bronze Age, the Volga/Ural J2b2a is absolutely not an evidence that it did so. In fact, their J2b2a seems to be of recent (central) European origin and Balkan subclades are ancestral. I have explained Maciamo the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2a before here and here, but apparently he either doesn't understand subclades, or didn't even bother to read my posts.

Now just because we have a J2b2a-L283 ancient DNA from Bronze Age Croatia (this haplogroup in the Balkans is far more common among Albanians) now he goes as far as to claim that all "J2b" (including J2b1-M205) in the western Balkans is of the same source. This may turn out to be true, but there is no phylogenetic evidence. J2b1-M205 in the whole western and central Balkans so far seems to belong to just one cluster. If such were the case, it should have much deeper roots than that, like is the case with J2b2a-L283 and now backed up by ancient DNA. J2b1-M205 as a haplogroup has a TMRCA of ~6000 ybp, and its center of diversity and frequency seems to be in the Levant area. Furthermore in an ancient DNA context, it has been found in ancient DNA from Early Bronze Age Levant area. There is also the Roman era Gladiator who was J2b1-M205 and likely of Middle Eastern origin.

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## Angela

> Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.


If you don't know anything about genetics or linguistics or pre-history, and have no interest whatsoever in learning about them, why the heck are you reading and commenting on the threads? It's as useless to you as it is to us.

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## Apsurdistan

> If you don't know anything about genetics or linguistics or pre-history, and have no interest whatsoever in learning about them, why the heck are you reading and commenting on the threads? It's as useless to you as it is to us.


If you find it useless, ignore it.

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## LeBrok

> I'm glad someone else doesn't require Hittites in Anatolia by 4000BC 
> 
> There was always waves coming out of the steppe, so this model is very fitting. Anatolians may have been driven by Greeks who may have been driven by Iranians or something like that. Probably not so simple, but for West Asia Hittites are newcomers on the historical record, among very sophisticated civilizations that kept track of Anatolia. And Greeks are even later.


 Genetically, we also see a big wave coming to Balkans from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixture. It should mean something, like appearance of some BA tribes in Balkans. Who were day? I think, these were the Greek tribes, later pushed into Greece by Late BA and IA wave of new arrivals from North, like Thracians and alike.

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## Maciamo

> One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?


I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!




> Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was *the* marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.


I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).

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## Sile

> The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad


The *Iliad* is an epic poem, composed around 800-725 B.C. and *written* down sometime between 725 and 675 B.C.

that's 1185BC to when it occurred, to when it is written , say 450 to 500 years after

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## IronSide

The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power  :Embarassed: 

I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.

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## Nik

> Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.


Ignorant (non-offensive) members (like myself) should do more reading than posting, unless you're genuinely trying to learn through questions after failing to get your answers from researching them on your own. 

Since you're a Bosniak, how do say 'sit' in your mother tongue? Just from my knowledge I know sit (Eng), siediti (Italian), sentarse (Spanish). Similarly, how do you say "give me"? In Italian its dammi by the way. U see the similarities? If that tells u nothing then find urself another hobby. Note how I didn't choose a word like 'wheel' that has a higher chance to be borrowed. 

With regards to the article, very interesting. 

@Maciamo
Are u basing your theory that J2b came from the Steppe due to its 1/3 Steppe admixture alone? 

It could still be pre-IE in the Balkans.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!
> 
> 
> 
> I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).


Imo, that's what you did with the blonde R1b Indoeuropeans, the R1b Dorians and the R1a Myceneans.
Btw, Goga is 'R1a*'

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## Apsurdistan

Of course there's gonna be a little similarity like 1-5% which is still very small, too small to put into a same language family. And considering the proximity and longevity of these populations co-existing extremely small. Comparing South Slavic to Romance, Albanian, Greek, German. We call Germans Njemci which literally means mutes-can't speak.

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## bicicleur

> One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?
> 
> Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was *the* marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.


it makes sense
all J were herders

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## Trojet

> The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power 
> 
> I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.


Thank you! Perhaps he will pay attention to your post, as I've already tried to explain to him a few times the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2.

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## Leka

Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;) 

From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy). 

Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol

----------


## Maciamo

> The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power 
> 
> I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.


The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out. J2b1, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 are all found among the Mordovians in the Middle Volga region at frequencies similar to those observed in Greece. The Mordovians, Greeks and people in the Dinaric Alps also possess a fair amount of R1a-CTS1211, which we could have presumed to have come in part from the Illyrians and Mycenaeans (although the biggest part is thought to have come with the Slavic migrations). We had a cluster of four haplogroups that aren't normally found together elsewhere except in the Balkans and among the Mordovians. That was too good to be true. I couldn't checked the age of R1b-Z2103 and R1a-CTS1211 in each region because there is too little data. But as far as J2b2-L283 in concerned, there seems indeed to have been a migration from the Balkans to the Volga-Ural during the Middle Ages, about 1000 to 1600 years ago. 

The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter. The first J2b2-L283 in the Middle East is from Late Bronze Age Armenia (c. 1100 BCE, just at the time of the arrival of IE Armenian speakers).

On the other hand there is still very little data from Central Asia. It would be very useful to investigate that region in more detail, with lots of modern and ancient genomes and detailed Y-DNA, especially from places like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.

----------


## Maciamo

> Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;) 
> 
> From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy). 
> 
> Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol



L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.

Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.

Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.

I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.

----------


## Leka

> L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.
> 
> Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.
> 
> Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.
> 
> I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.


Only L245 was found in Hvar and Korcula, have a look at their results, they don't seem to be too distant from the Jewish Cluster - and seems like a founder effect. An odd case for sure. The other two SNPs mentioned are from other regions: one from Bosnia and the other from Serbia.

----------


## spartan owl

> The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad


I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
Can you help me by reminding me?

----------


## Trojet

> The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out.


OK. I am glad you got this straightened out.





> The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in *India* and does have a *TMRCA of 4400 years*, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter.


I hope you understand that the data you're getting from J-M241 Project at FTDNA is administered by me, so I have much more data than you do regarding this HG. For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is *only one* person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.

TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:



I do agree with you that J2b2-L283 came to Balkans/Europe most likely during the Early Bronze Age from further east, ancient DNA above all is pointing in this direction. However, its expansion ca. 5900 ybp is not as simple as you suggest. And more importantly for you to claim that it's found in all India is obviously wrong.

----------


## Sile

> I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
> Can you help me by reminding me?


I agree with you, 

the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians

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## A. Papadimitriou

> I agree with you, 
> 
> the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.
> *
> plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC* ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians


This is Not true.

----------


## Sile

> This is Not true.


enlighten me then

The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.

the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.

My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands

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## rove

Does this explain how J2b2 could end up in Denmark? I have traced my ancestry long way back. All of them from Denmark. 23andme tells my Y-dna haplogroup is J2b2 and my mtDNA haplogroup is U5a1b1. My ancestry composition is pretty much all NW European and high percentage of that scandinavian. I look like typical scandinavian (think Ragnar and Bjørn lothbrok from the show Vikings).

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## DuPidh

> I agree with you, 
> 
> the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.
> 
> plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians


You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about

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## DuPidh

> enlighten me then
> 
> The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.
> 
> the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.
> 
> My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands


 Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal

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## DuPidh

> I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
> Can you help me by reminding me?


Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication

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## A. Papadimitriou

> Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication


I wouldn't bother but I searched the texts and I didn't find anything.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal


That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.

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## DuPidh

> That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.


 You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.

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## Maciamo

> For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is *only one* person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.



I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it? 




> TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:


Sorry, I meant to say that Z628 (aka Z597) has a TMRCA of 4400 years. It is the branch that we were discussing, which is found in India and the Middle East (but also in many parts of Europe like the Balkans, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia and Portugal). I have a particularly busy day yesterday and replied in a hurry between two meetings.

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## Trojet

> I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?


While I can't say with a 100% certainty due to a limited amount of markers tested, all of J2b2's from both papers appear to be under the typical South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432 aka Z2444.

Furthermore, at J-M241 Project at FTDNA, out of about 25 South Asian J2b2's, all but one are under the South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432,Z2444. So no, there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 has a presence in India, unless you're basing this on only one example, but then we also have one predicted J2b2-Z2432 in Europe (Germany).

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## LABERIA

> You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.


No, you are wrong with this theory of freedom. For the ancient greeks the world was divided in greeks and barbarians. Someone from Sparta considered someone from Athens as people of the same "nation".

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## spartan owl

> Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication


i do not say that it is not maybe it is ,but do you remember where?

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## Angela

Fwiw, the link below is to an on-line Iliad with a search engine. Neither Illyrians nor Illyrian produced results.

http://www.online-literature.com/homer/iliad/

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## Yetos

> The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad



can you give a Link of Ilias?
or at least the place where is mentioned?

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## MOESAN

> I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.


Your good sense is maybe too superficial? - You ought to read more about paleo-linguistic.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

_(prologue)_
I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that* noise* to ever end in safe conclusions.


I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


_(to the soup)_ 
I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


*There are no Illyrians at Homer.* 
*At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.*

The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


Maybe*; @Dupidh* in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία _(Central Greece- Thessaly_{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} _the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous_ {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} _which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)_
The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
Get dizzy? -Anyway
the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



_(to the beef)_
The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..*;*

(_the dessert_)
I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that* Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock* to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .

----------


## LABERIA

> _(prologue)_
> I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that* noise* to ever end in safe conclusions.
> 
> 
> I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...
> 
> 
> _(to the soup)_ 
> I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...
> ...


Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.

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## Yetos

*Termination of word* *BARBARIAN

Barbarian :* from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark, 
the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

*BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
but different sound as dialect or language

period,
*to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

*ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,*
before moved to Olympia, 
Modern day *is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)*

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.


As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
> What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?


I mean the Delphi

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## Yetos

J2b is found in Pannoni Basin, modern Hungary with the migrations of possibly IE speakers from Yamnaa to West,

J2b for me is a mark of Arcado-Cypriots 

*so the question is,
is J2b found in Hungary same with the J2b of Arcado-Cypriots?* 
is it possible to be connected with the Arzawa-Assuwa population?

and why so much rare-empty space among Europe and Asia J2b.
it seems like it jumped a long jump leaving no traces behind.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> *Termination of word* *BARBARIAN
> 
> Barbarian :* from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark, 
> the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
> Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark
> 
> *BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
> but different sound as dialect or language
> 
> ...



Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

 :Laughing:  θενκς Γέτος

----------


## Yetos

> Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
> αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ
> 
>  θενκς Γέτος


μεν πληζ, ιτ ις ΥΕΤΟΣ φρομ δε χομερικ Υει μηνινκ βρεχει
ση Υετογραφημα

πσ

Ι λαικτ (to the beef),
μηνσ στο ψητο?

----------


## Sile

> _(prologue)_
> I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that* noise* to ever end in safe conclusions.
> 
> 
> I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...
> 
> 
> _(to the soup)_ 
> I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...
> ...


We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo

The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks

The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........

Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo
> 
> The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks
> 
> The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........
> 
> Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well


Your first statment meakes sense. Scholars don't try to connect them usually (although I don't get it, imo they can be connected, for example those who lost the war could have expanded towards Balkans).

Dardanians of Balkans are thought to be Thraco-Illyrian or something. Greek mythology connects them to Illyrians, although the Romans considered them Greeks.

The Dorians were Hellenic obviously. Epirotans were linguistically Hellenic, just like Umbrians were Italic. Genetically we don't know but there's no reason to assume they were more mixed than any other Hellenic speaking group.
They weren't considered Hellenes though. English translations makes things worse, because they translate 'Hellas' and 'Hellenes' as 'Greece' and 'Greeks'.

Actually Dorian/NW Greek should be closer to the language we would label proto-Greek than Attic is.

----------


## LABERIA

> *Termination of word* *BARBARIAN
> 
> Barbarian :* from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark, 
> the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
> Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark
> 
> *BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
> but different sound as dialect or language
> 
> ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian
According to Oxford English Dictionary :
2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.

----------


## Angela

> You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about


How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample? 

You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.

----------


## Angela

Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.

----------


## LABERIA

> Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
> αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ
> 
>  θενκς Γέτος


I am curious, who is/are the author/s behind this website who spread this paparies around in internet?

----------


## LABERIA

> Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.
> 
> I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.


Then, let me suggest you. You have to start from the post 54.

----------


## LABERIA

> Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.
> 
> I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.


Excuse me, but people here can speak about Epir whatever they want, meanwhile my posts where i quoted Herodotus, Thunman and Oxford Dictionary about this region and ancient inhabitants, are deleted. Why?

----------


## DuPidh

> How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample? 
> 
> You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.


Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.

----------


## DuPidh

> How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample? 
> 
> You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.


This is a thread about genetics, but lets not fool ourselves, without taking in consideration known populations movements our understanding will be skewed.

----------


## Sile

> Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.


wrong, 
the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

wrong post  :Innocent:

----------


## LABERIA

> wrong, 
> *the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans* when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
> The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo


I posted the evidence, but it was deleted.

----------


## Angela

There was a glitch.

The most egregiously off-topic posts have been deleted. I would remind people this is a genetics thread. There's a limit to how far off topic you can go. Any disputes over who is or who is not Albanian or Greek, or posts about the ethnogenesis of these peoples don't belong on this thread. A specific thread was created for that purpose; USE IT.

@ Papadimitriou and Spartan Owl,

As your posts requesting that I delete off topic posts quoted the off topic material, I thought it best to delete them.

----------


## Yetos

nothing

I keep silent.

reading stupid propganda lies,
that even those who wrote it do not believe it

----------


## Yetos

Ok I do not want another infraction

but it has gone too far

----------


## LATGAL

I hope I'm not adding any fuel to fires around here...

There have been plenty of views on the (Balkan) Dardanians. Here's Papazoglou's view in 'The Central Balkan Tribes in pre-Roman Tribes', after summarizing the various views expressed before her and a lengthy look into the ancient characterization of the Dardanians (sometimes as Illyrians, others as distinct from them but she considers that to have been in a 'political' rather than 'ethnic/linguistic' sense) and the few onomastic and toponymic material that have come down to us:




> The ancient authorities counted the Dardanians among the Illyrians. Judging by linguistic remains, the Illyrian element played a rather decisive part in forming the Dardanian ethnos. Considerable masses of a Thracian population were included in the Dardanian community so that in historical times the eastern part of Dardania [ed: roughly the Scupi-Naissus line] had a markedly Thracian character. Political developments contributed to the differentiation of the Dardanians as a separate people


Ditto with the ancient Epirotes. Here are some recent views on the ancient Epirotes spanning the breadth of possibilities but that generally agree with the predominant Northwest Greek character of the onomastic and epigraphic remains.

N.G.L. Hammond in The Oxford Classical Dictionary 2nd and 3rd Ed. respectively, under Epirus:




> ...fourteen Epirote tribes, probably of Dorian and Illyrian stocks.





> ...fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong West-greek dialect.


William Bowden in Wiley's The Ancient Encyclopedia of Ancient World History, under Epirus:




> Despite Thucydides describing them as barbaroi (2.68.5), it seems certain that the language spoken by these tribes was a dialect of Greek (an issue that has caused considerable dispute in relation to the modern geopolitics of the region).


Daniel Strauch in Brill's New Pauly, under Epirus:




> Ancient authors saw the inhabitants of E. as bárbaroi...However, there was an early Hellenization of the elite, the inhabitants of the coastal towns, and also the sanctuaries. The original language is unknown; rare early written evidence from Dodona shows Corinthian letters with local (?) deviations, the earliest (longer) inscriptions of c. 380 BC are written in a north-west Greek dialect.


In general, it seems that the Dardanians were an Illyrian-speaking population in whose area in the Easternmost parts the Thracian element became predominant over time, while the Epirotes, whatever their 'original' language, seem to have adopted Northwest Greek at least by the early 4th century BC and visited by theorodokoi starting around the same period. It's true that they didn't fit in quite well in the "Greek proper" concept of ethnicity (see Malkin and Hall's work on that) but we don't have an emic view of the Illyrians and the Dardanians in the first place. Of course perfect linguistic and ethnic 'purity' should probably not be sought in all those borderland regions and the area of south Illyria with cities like Dimale and Byllis shows that well.

----------


## Bergin

Hello, I don't think that there is any proof of J2b spilled in Troy, clearly the proof will not be found in Homer.

----------


## Diomedes

If Epirotans were not Greek related why then Dodona was the second most sacred place in Greece after the Delphi?

Can someone explain this then? If Epirotans were not relevant with the Greeks, then they were people of their own. Perhaps Epirotans were actually the Dorians.

And recall, Epirotans take their ancestry from Neoptolemos (son of Achilles). All of these things mean something ...

Illyrians and Epirotans had a connection, as they were neighbors. It is well-known that Pyrrhus and his family was saved by the Illyrian king Glaukias. He also had an Illyrian woman, among others. 

... so make love, no war ...  :Innocent: 

P.S. The Greek cities of Magna Graecia asked Pyrrhus to help them. That is, they asked fellow Greeks to help them. Plus, do not go far away y'all. Epirotan names are all Greek. It is also possible that the name Hellenes/Hellas comes from Epirus as well. Case closed.

----------


## Diomedes

We will find a way bruv. Worry not ...




> Ok I do not want another infraction
> 
> but it has gone too far

----------


## Aaron1981

I really don't think so. J2b(1 or 2) likely arrived with the Iran_CHL type of component in the Bronze Age with the wave of city builders out of Mesopotamia. I'm not exactly sure how they wound up in southern Italy and the Balkans, but this appears to be the case since this component is also found in the Levant around the same period. Unless we are assuming the ancient Mesopotamians were Indo-European speaking, I don't see how this paper can possibly argue these were IE speakers.

I suppose one might think I keep spewing R1b centered rants, but if the Illyrian language came from the NW Balkans, the prime candidate is R1b-CTS9219, since the phylogenetic tree of this branch in eastern Europe actually supports a west to east movement into the steppes on further scrutiny.... Perhaps Mycenaean and Illyrians were just early offshoots of Proto-Italo-Celtic people. Of course, the neolithic people of the Aegean islands were already EEF and Middle Eastern in origin. I don't think we can debate this.

----------


## spartan owl

so the J2b and the E-V13 were IE. It makes sense to me but there is one question that i have.The albanians ghegs seems to have the most sardinian like dna in the balkans according to the:"Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean" paper but in the same time they seem to have the highest E-V13and J2b.I know that y-dna and autosomal dna do not always coincide, but it would be more fluent as a theory if they did.In this case we must assume that the illyrians married with EEF women propagating their y-dna and in the same time maintaining a strong EEF component in their autosomal dna, and then staying isolated while the tosks were influenced by greek or some other kind of balkan or slavic dna both in Y and in autosomal dna.
I do not know if you have some better explanation?
finally for the epirotans identity
Attachment 8759
an epirotan coin

----------


## Trojet

> I really don't think so. *J2b(1 or 2) likely arrived with the Iran_CHL type of component in the Bronze Age with the wave of city builders out of Mesopotamia.* I'm not exactly sure how they wound up in southern Italy and the Balkans, but this appears to be the case since this component is also found in the Levant around the same period. Unless we are assuming the ancient Mesopotamians were Indo-European speaking, I don't see how this paper can possibly argue these were IE speakers


This is probably true, especially for J2b1-M205, which so far has been found twice in aDNA from the Levant area, and nothing from Europe yet.

J2b2a-L283 which is the actual sample found in Bronze Age Croatia, might be a different story, as it has also been found in LBA Armenia. So, by the Chalcolithic or EBA, it could've easily made itself around the eastern shores of the Black Sea, assuming it wasn't already in the Balkans/Europe by that time. 

The problem most people have with J2b is that they tend to lump it together, without looking at its branches, which besides splits that date to the Mesolithic, they have different geographical distributions. J2b-M102 split into J2b1 and J2b2 ca.15,900 ybp, and the branch that has the highest diversity in the Balkans/Europe is J2b2a-L283 (now found in Bronze Age ancient DNA context there).

----------


## Fatherland

J2b2 is probably not from the Steppe, as the steppe aDNA is not high enough to give a 100% estimation. It may have absorbed rich Steppe-populations but I am 100% sure it was in the Central Europe-Balkan area for quite a long while.

And as Trojet mentioned, the J2b2 samples found in the Steppe-Volga are younger and suggest an expansion from the Balkans to the Steppe, just like R1b-L23 did with Yamnaya from Central/South East Europe to the Steppe & Anatolia-Armenia-Mesopotamia.

One J2b2 sample TMRCA of 1700BC in the deep Croatian hinterland gives strong hints of the haplotype dwelling in the Dinaric highlands for a long time, since the Neolithic or EBA most likely.
Since J has been found in Mesolithic Karelia I am not ruling out European Mesolithic continuity in J2b2.

Remember, the woman was also part steppe-admixed which implies they might have absorbed some steppe population later on with Indo-European source through maternal line.

J2b2 clades have also been found in Sardinia and these people have virtually zero steppe ancestry.

----------


## Fatherland

I will just leave this here:

In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.

People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.

----------


## Fustan

People need to learn about the difference between J2b-M205 (J2b1) and J2b-M241 (J2b2), and that there is certainly nothing Indo-European about the former.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> I will just leave this here:
> 
> In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.
> 
> People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.


I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.

----------


## Fustan

> I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.


I1-L22>P109 in the Balkans is related to the Normans.

----------


## Milan.M

Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.

----------


## Fatherland

^Except they did not. Albanian ancestors(Illyrians) were allover the Western Balkans before the masses of Slavic migrations.

And these were way more Western-shifted than the Slavic inhabitants of the Western Balkans today.

----------


## Bergin

> I will just leave this here:
> 
> In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.
> 
> People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.


You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion. 
So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.

----------


## Fatherland

> You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion. 
> So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.


There is a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample(unknown y-dna, probably female sample) plotting right with the modern Ghegs. That is the cold hard fact, Ghegs have barely changed in terms of aDNA since the Bronze Age.

----------


## Fustan

> Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
> What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...Italian_theory

Obsolete theory.

----------


## Fatherland

> I1-L22>P109 in the Balkans is related to the Normans.

----------


## Yetos

> You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion. 
> So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. *What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.*


*
Bergin +1 from me* 
That is good point to start
no matter I have arqued many times with Albanians here in forum,
I love such trully scientific ideas.

----------


## Fatherland

> *
> Bergin +1 from me* 
> That is good point to start
> no matter I have arqued many times with Albanians here in forum,
> I love such trully scientific ideas.


Greek Macedonians are largely of Slavic ancestry R1a and I2a1b of 50-60% frequency. It is even higher than many of the Slavic inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia.

I wouldn't really stick my nose into everything if I was a Greek with Slavic medieval newcomer ancestry.

----------


## Yetos

> Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
> What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.



*Milan the Maniakis theory has nothing to do with Normands,
*but with East Roman empire army, 


the Normands in Albania are connected mainly with crusaders and Latinocracy 
and the state of Anju, 
yet there is an argue for Anju to be Cumans

----------


## Yetos

> Greek Macedonians are largely of Slavic ancestry R1a and I2a1b of 50-60% frequency. It is even higher than many of the Slavic inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia.
> 
> I wouldn't really stick my nose into everything if I was a Greek with Slavic medieval newcomer ancestry.



*Thank you.*
but I will not follow your advice, 
AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
especially in PC's. 
(and strongly recomended if you have A+ type of blood)

----------


## Fustan

> *Thank you.*
> but I will not follow your advice, 
> AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
> 
> I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
> especially in PC's


There's nothing Greek about Albanians, especially north Albanians (Ghegides) which is what me and Fatherland are.
But I can tell you that there is plenty of Albanian things about Greeks, and Y-DNA influence is one of them.

----------


## Fatherland

> *Thank you.*
> but I will not follow your advice, 
> AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
> 
> I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
> especially in PC's. 
> (and strongly recomended if you have A+ type of blood)


Greek Macedonia is 30-40% I2a1b and 25-30% R1a alone. You have major Slavic ancestry there, especially from the assimilated Bulgarians and Medieval Slavs who are "Makedonian Greeks" now.

----------


## Fatherland

> *Thank you.*
> but I will not follow your advice, 
> AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS
> 
> I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
> especially in PC's. 
> (and strongly recomended if you have A+ type of blood)



Read Fustan's post above you. He is right, you are not.

----------


## Fustan

Well, Aegean Macedonia did not only have Slavs. It would not be out of the question to consider that R1b, V13 that accompanies the massive frequency of Slavic Y-DNA (R1a and I2a-Din which makes 40% minimum of the region) in Greek Macedonia is also Bulgarian, Vlachic or Albanian.


Very little "Original Makedonian" there, as Yetos has on his profile.

----------


## Bergin

> Greek Macedonians are largely of Slavic ancestry R1a and I2a1b of 50-60% frequency. It is even higher than many of the Slavic inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia.
> 
> I wouldn't really stick my nose into everything if I was a Greek with Slavic medieval newcomer ancestry.


You are offending people almost out of the blue. 
There has been already sufficient bad blood regarding the balkans - many threads dedicated to it. 
So, please calm down and realize that you and Yetos probably have much more in common than you thing.

And please take also things with a bit of philosophy, this is a new research field with new papers and data coming out monthly and yearly. In few years all data will start to converge and we will be able to make 'well accepted' conclusions. Till that moment just wait patiently. 

cheers

----------


## Fatherland

> You are offending people almost out of the blue. 
> There has been already sufficient bad blood regarding the balkans - many threads dedicated to it. 
> So, please calm down and realize that you and Yetos probably have much more in common than you thing.
> 
> And please take also things with a bit of philosophy, this is a new research field with new papers and data coming out monthly and yearly. In few years all data will start to converge and we will be able to make 'well accepted' conclusions. Till that moment just wait patiently. 
> 
> cheers


The only reason Modern Greeks would have common ancestry with Albanians is through the Albanian medieval migrations southwards to Greece.

----------


## Fustan

> So, please calm down and realize that you and Yetos probably have much more in common than you thing.


Can you elaborate here?

----------


## Yetos

> The only reason Modern Greeks would have common ancestry with Albanians is through the Albanian medieval migrations southwards to Greece.



man I know what I am,
and my genetics also
and I make peace with them.

I want to ask you.
do you know all your genes?
and how much deep and autosomal etc?
have you made peace with them?

----------


## Fatherland

> man I know what I am,
> and my genetics also
> and I make peace with them.
> 
> I want to ask you.
> do you know all your genes?
> and how much deep and autosomal etc?
> have you made peace with them?


I know everything, I am in peace. 

Amateurs are not however. You have made stupid, ignorant comments since day one here.
So don't try to be moral police.

----------


## Bergin

> Can you elaborate here?


I dont think this is the right place. J2b should be the topic.

So briefly, If you dont want to feel alone in this big world, well greeks and macedonians and italians and all balkans are those you should feel close to. All have defects, and so do albanians. So better learn to tolerate if you want to be tolerated. If not, choose a megalomaniac and lonely exile.
Being proud of what you are means also to accept other peoples pride, culture and differences.

----------


## Fustan

> I dont think this is the right place. J2b should be the topic.


Why did you bring it up, then?




> So briefly, If you dont want to feel alone in this big world, well greeks and macedonians and italians and all balkans are those you should feel close to.




I feel closest to Albanians. Albanians are very diverse regionally, my village is completely different from say, Fatherland's village.
His village is completely different from mine, but we are both Albanians, and we are both J2b2. This is real diversity to me.




> . All have defects, and so do albanians.




Right.




> Being proud of what you are means also to accept other peoples pride, culture and differences.




I am very proud that our neighbors (especially the Greeks) have adopted many parts of our culture and I have by no means disqualified it's legitimacy.

----------


## Fatherland

> I dont think this is the right place. J2b should be the topic.
> 
> So briefly, If you dont want to feel alone in this big world, well greeks and macedonians and italians and all balkans are those you should feel close to. All have defects, and so do albanians. So better learn to tolerate if you want to be tolerated. If not, choose a megalomaniac and lonely exile.
> Being proud of what you are means also to accept other peoples pride, culture and differences.


I feel closest to Albanians, nothing else. I don't suck up to anyone. I am very open minded, but you can't force me to like someone.

This thread is about *J2b2-L283* - only Europeans carry this, you wont find any single Asian or African with it except someone with recent Balkan ancestry. 

J2b1-M205 is a Levantine newcomer since the early centuries AD and it spans in tiny percentages in Europe.

There's more than 15 000 years of the J2b split into J2b1 and J2b2. About the same age as the R1 split into R1a and R1b.

----------


## Fatherland

The Steppe ancestry in the Ancient sample comes from earlier Indo-European migrations carried by Yamnaya R1b-L23. People Central & South East Europe were quite high on Steppe back then. 

The rest is WHG & EEF.

Steppe ancestry is quite responsible for the light features such as blond hair and blue eyes as I have that myself.

Every single J2b2-L283 you find in the Steppe or rest of Europe is from the Balkans.



Trojet made very wise, civilized posts in this forum and certain people chose to ignore him due to their own biased agendas, how fair is this?

----------


## Yetos

> The Steppe ancestry in the Ancient sample comes from earlier Indo-European migrations carried by Yamnaya R1b-L23. People Central & South East Europe were quite high on Steppe back then. 
> 
> The rest is WHG & EEF.
> 
> Steppe ancestry is quite responsible for the light features such as blond hair and blue eyes as I have that myself.
> 
> Every single J2b2-L283 you find in the Steppe or rest of Europe is from the Balkans.
> 
> 
> ...



Blond and Blue eyes?

*I thought Blondism is originated in Baltic sea* 
and has to do with humidity,

----------


## Fatherland

> Blond and Blue eyes?
> 
> *I thought Blondism is originated in Baltic sea* 
> and has to do with humidity,


Steppe is high in those countries. It's genetic mutation from a Steppe/EHG-like source.

WHGs had dark skin and dark hair.

----------


## Yetos

> Steppe is high in those countries. It's genetic mutation from a Steppe-like source.



hmm

let me keep my precautions,

Blondism is a genetic mutation of Baltic, as far as I know.
meaning spredd from Baltic to elsewhere.

anyway,

since L283 search your Z.

have a good night.

*and the idea of Bergin is correct,

to find what you trully are,
you must also know what was Historically, 
the thing you want, and the thing you are.

*that is peace.

----------


## Fatherland

> since L283 search your Z.
> 
> have a good night.
> 
> *and the idea of Bergin is correct,
> *


*You and Bergin are wrong. He did not elaborate on anything.
*

Would have to go way past 15000 years back for that, as it is beyond M241.



Blue eyes originated in the Black Sea region.

----------


## Yetos

> Would have to go way past 15000 years back for that, as it is beyond M241.


I really want to tell you this
L283 is marker of many modern groups,

and some Z are connected with certain groups.

that is all.

my DNA is strongly caucasian and Aegean and neolithic
possibly nothing with IE.

G2a3a and X2

----------


## Fatherland

> I really want to tell you this
> L283 is marker of many modern groups,
> 
> and some Z are connected with certain groups.
> 
> that is all.
> 
> my DNA is strongly caucasian and Aegean and neolithic
> possibly nothing with IE.
> ...



J2b2-L283 is only found among Europeans so far, Ancient and Modern, so it has its core here.

Yes, G2a was the dominant group among the Anatolian Farmers. It wasnt Caucasian, as it did not carry any CHG admixture.
Only Med components from Anatolian Farmers so far.

Today, G2a is low everywhere in Europe except in Georgia and Sardinia to some extent, because it was killed off by others.

The Eupedia G-clade map values do not add up with the basal G map of Europe.

----------


## Yetos

> J2b2-L283 is only found among Europeans so far, Ancient and Modern, so it has its core here.
> 
> Yes, G2a was the dominant group among the Anatolian Farmers. It wasnt Caucasian, as it did not carry any CHG admixture.
> Only Med components from Anatolian Farmers so far.
> 
> Today, G2a is low everywhere in Europe except in Georgia and Sardinia to some extent, because it was killed off by others.
> 
> The Eupedia G-clade map values do not add up with the basal G map of Europe.



I ll send email.

----------


## Aaron1981

Perhaps no *living* Albanian Y lineages actually descend from Normans. If even the west Europeans can't figure out who is Norman in their own damn country, how the hell would you when the connection is even more obscure?

The L23 (xL51) with DYS385ab of 11,11 is definitely not from the Normans as it is pan-Balkan but peaks in Albanians and Greeks, most likely arriving from the north west or possibly Italy if you follow the phylogeny.

I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.

----------


## Aaron1981

> Steppe is high in those countries. It's genetic mutation from a Steppe/EHG-like source.
> 
> WHGs had dark skin and dark hair.


Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.

----------


## Fatherland

> Perhaps no *living* Albanian Y lineages actually descend from Normans. If even the west Europeans can't figure out who is Norman in their own damn country, how the hell would you when the connection is even more obscure?
> 
> The L23 (xL51) with DYS385ab of 11,11 is definitely not from the Normans as it is pan-Balkan but peaks in Albanians and Greeks, most likely arriving from the north west or possibly Italy if you follow the phylogeny.
> 
> I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.


R1b-L23 is of Yamnaya steppe extraction, not Italian. All males in the Ancient Yamnaya samples were R1b-L23.



For the J2b2 comment, elaborate or don't post anymore. You sound like the kindergarten of the primitive years of haplogroupism(2005-2011).

There is already J2b2-L283 Ancient European sample, so you failed.

----------


## Bergin

> I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.


Any chance that you can back up this statement with some evidence?

----------


## Fatherland

J2 is as Middle Eastern as R1 is South Asian. There really is no point of arguing over this shit again.

----------


## Yetos

Good night Guys

I liked berkin's idea/proposal.

until we really know what true Illyrians, or true Myceneans were, 
we are still modern Greeks and modern Albanians and whatever else we are.
and assume since we are.
that the 'old ones' were the same.
so by knowing better what they were,
we can understand what we are.

I my shelf have no IE ethnicity by my DNA,
my ethinicity is heritaged or forced to grand grand ... parents
either by blood, either by common memories, either by common acts, either by ... etc etc

Good night all

----------


## Fatherland

> Good night Guys
> 
> I liked berkin's idea/proposal.
> 
> until we really know what true Illyrians, or true Myceneans were, 
> we are still modern Greeks and modern Albanians and whatever else we are.
> and assume since we are.
> that the 'old ones' were the same.
> so by knowing better what they were,
> ...


Ancient J2b2-L283 was found in an area full of Illyrians, so therefore I know that I am Illyrian-descended.

Same logic goes for westerners picking Celtic, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon etc. Except that my logic is based on real genetic finds with such a close precision.

Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.

Good night.

----------


## Fatherland

> Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.


WHG had nothing to do with light skin.

----------


## Bergin

> Ancient J2b2-L283 was found in an area full of Illyrians, so therefore I know that I am Illyrian-descended. Good night.
> 
> Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.


I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others). 

Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.

I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2: 
- Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....

good night.

----------


## Fatherland

> I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others). 
> 
> Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.
> 
> I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2: 
> - Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....
> 
> good night.


Good point 

Well, there has been tons of misconceptions about certain haplogroups throughout the years and still people can't get it through their heads when evidence is right infront of their eyes.

Well, check the Albanian bloodlines project and you will understand why. People with Malsor(Highlander) ancestry are exclusively J2b2, EV13 and R1b-L23 with a minority of I1. 
Keep in mind these Albanians tend to plot the most north out of all Albanians in terms of aDNA.

Which area of Albania do you hail from?

----------


## Bergin

> Which area of Albania do you hail from?


I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).

----------


## Fatherland

> I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).


90-95% chance you are EV13/J2b2-L283/R1b-L23.

----------


## Fustan

I am certain you are either R1b or J2b2.

----------


## Fustan

> Perhaps no *living* Albanian Y lineages actually descend from Normans.


Yes there is. I1-L22>P109 is generally associated with Normans and it exists at around 2.6% among Kosovo Albanians.




> If even the west Europeans can't figure out who is Norman in their own damn country, how the hell would you when the connection is even more obscure?


Considering that Normans are foreigners to the Balkans (and they did penetrate pretty much the entire Balkans), they have a foreign haplogroup, thus easier to identify. Come on man, it's simple logic.




> The L23 (xL51) with DYS385ab of 11,11 is definitely not from the Normans as it is pan-Balkan but peaks in Albanians and Greeks, most likely arriving from the north west or possibly Italy if you follow the phylogeny.


L23 is Indo-European (Yamnaya). No one ever claimed it was from Normans.




> I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.


J2b2-L283 was found in a Bronze Age (proto-illyrian, ancient Europe) sample from Dalmatia almost a month ago, and plenty of threads have been made regarding this discovery.

----------


## DuPidh

> Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
> What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.


Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum

----------


## LATGAL

> Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.


The Bronze Age Montenegrin sample (which was of low quality too from what I recall so perhaps not much should be based on it considering I haven't seen any other tests ran on it by many people) on non-projected PCAs plots with Iberians and North Italians. Both contemporary Albanians and Greeks seem to have moved towards a somewhat more 'eastern' (or ANE-heavy or the Caucasus side of things) position for whatever reason but neither Albania nor post-Neolithic Greece and the Aegean have been sampled yet so we don't know when they acquired their modern 'positions'. The other, recent samples from the Balkans (all the way down to Iron-Age Bulgaria) seem to be similar based on their position on the projected PCA.

So I don't entirely agree with you, something seems to have affected the Balkans after that quite a bit, unless populations further south than Croatia and Bulgaria already looked different at the time. We'll see with further sampling. But I agree that Ghegs do seem to be the most conservative genetically population in the Balkans which is unsurprising.

Also, as an aside, you massively exaggerate the R1a and I2a-Din that has been found in Macedonian Greeks, halve your estimate to around 30-35% and it's closer to what I've seen. In comparison other mainland Greeks and Tosks have some 20% of those two combined which is well, significant too (and even Ghegs managed to end up with some 5-6%). As for the Albanian impact on Greek Macedonia, it was insignificant.

----------


## LATGAL

> Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.


Looking at those again, the three Mesolithic Latvians were all homozygous ancestral for SLC45A2 and two of them were heterozygous for SLC24A5. The Mesolithic Romanians were all homozygous ancestral for both. Have I gone wrong somewhere?

They seem to adhere to the general pre-farmer situation in Europe west of the Ukraine-Karelia (and Scandinavia).

----------


## Fatherland

> The Bronze Age Montenegrin sample (which was of low quality too from what I recall so perhaps not much should be based on it considering I haven't seen any other tests ran on it by many people) on non-projected PCAs plots with Iberians and North Italians. Both contemporary Albanians and Greeks seem to have moved towards a somewhat more 'eastern' (or ANE-heavy or the Caucasus side of things) position for whatever reason but neither Albania nor post-Neolithic Greece and the Aegean have been sampled yet so we don't know when they acquired their modern 'positions'.


Wrong. It plots between Albanians and Bulgarians. So it's more Eastern shifted than contemporary Albanians, yet within the Albanian spectrum. And we are not even taking into amount many modern Albanians who are shifted towards that direction too that have been shown on other PCA maps apart from this one.

Not even close to North Italians/Iberians.

JAZ1

----------


## Milan.M

> Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum


Ancient Illyrianzz

----------


## LABERIA

> Well, Aegean Macedonia did not only have Slavs. It would not be out of the question to consider that R1b, V13 that accompanies the massive frequency of Slavic Y-DNA (R1a and I2a-Din which makes 40% minimum of the region) in Greek Macedonia is also Bulgarian, Vlachic or Albanian.
> 
> 
> *Very little "Original Makedonian" there, as Yetos has on his profile.*


Well, about this discussion of original Macedonian i am undecided between Yetos and Milan. M. An important part of the population of the Greek region of Macedonia are people arrived in the region from Asia Minor during the exchange of the population between Greece and Turkey. They gathered all this people from every angle of Asia, using as criteria the fact that this people were Christians and settled them in the region of Macedonia, Epir, etc. My impression is that Yetos is the descendant of this interesting group of people. 
From the other side, Milan M is a slav but in their country they have a huge statue of Alexander The Great, so probably Milan. M win.

----------


## Fustan

> Well, about this discussion of original Macedonian i am undecided between Yetos and Milan. M. An important part of the population of the Greek region of Macedonia are people arrived in the region from Asia Minor during the exchange of the population between Greece and Turkey. They gathered all this people from every angle of Asia, using as criteria the fact that this people were Christians and settled them in the region of Macedonia, Epir, etc. My impression is that Yetos is the descendant of this interesting group of people. 
> From the other side, Milan M is a slav but in their country they have a huge statue of Alexander The Great, so probably Milan. M win.


At least Yetos has a Hellenic culture, while Milan is from FYROM (judging by your posts?). I think Greeks have more legitimacy towards the ancient Hellenes, to be fair so do FYROMians, you can't really stop anyone from identifying with what they want to identify as. If FYROMians adopted the Greek language it would at least give the claims of the people of FYROM some credence.


I don't particularly care if Greeks identify with the ancients, or with whatever else. I mostly only interject when it's regarding the Arvanites (who by the way, don't exist anymore, they have all been completely assimilated and should stop identifying as Arvanites because they are Greeks now).

----------


## Fatherland

> I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.


Wrong, it varies in Ghegs between 18-27%. It's Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya extraction. Also slightly elevated in some parts of Peloponnese.

----------


## Angela

> Wrong, it varies in Ghegs between 18-27%. It's Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya extraction. Also slightly elevated in some parts of Peloponnese.


That Eupedia map is for all of R1b.

----------


## Fatherland

> That Eupedia map is for all of R1b.


99% of the R1b in Albanian is of the Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya clade.

Anything else would be the Western clades.

----------


## LATGAL

> Wrong. It plots between Albanians and Bulgarians. So it's more Eastern shifted than contemporary Albanians, yet within the Albanian spectrum. And we are not even taking into amount many modern Albanians who are shifted towards that direction too that have been shown on other PCA maps apart from this one.
> 
> Not even close to North Italians/Iberians.


Those samples are projected on the PCA you're showing which pulls them closer to the center (0, 0) which is precisely where Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians are on that PCA. A _non-projected_ PCA would show them clustering somewhere between North Italians and Iberians. There have been studies showing this projection bias. You can also tell by the fact that this PCA is showing for example various Neolithic samples clustering close to Sicilians and Greeks even though we know they should be much closer to Sardinians.

Either way those samples are so low quality that apparently not many tests can be reliably run on them. But the rest of the _sampled_ Bronze-Iron Age Balkans so far seem to differ somewhat from contemporary Albanians and Greeks (let alone the more Slavic-influenced populations) as well. We still need to actually sample Albania, Greece and the Aegean to have a clear picture but for the time being, it doesn't seem that you are quite correct about this. All the populations of the Balkans seem to have changed a tad since the Bronze-Iron ages.

----------


## Sile

> Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum


the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video

----------


## Bergin

> the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory
> 
> garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video


Well, with all the respect and if you don't doubt the age of albanian language ....
it mostly means that germanic languagea are albanian (you cannot give birth to something older, can you?), which i doubt.
Maybe it means that proto albanian and proto germanic minimise certain algorithms, similarly you shuld envision a world of proto celto-italic afine to proto-balto-slavic.

very hard to conclude.
but the interpretation should always be that we all spoke the same language and that one way or the other it split up contiously. using actual languages as if they came up in parallel is not going to help you

----------


## Gash

> the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory
> 
> garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video


Proto-Ilyrians came from Hallstatt so it makes sense. They migrated into the Balkans and mingled with an indigenous population. It used to be grouped together with Germanic and Balto-Slavic.

----------


## MOESAN

Astonishing theories (Germanic, Albanian...). We need Sanctus Taranis (LOL). Personally I have some difficulty to link Albanian to Germanic, or the contrary...? But my knowledge is short here. Concerning Illyrians, we are in the fog; maybe one of these relatively short life group: a more or less tight grouping of some meta-Italic tribes and Dacian-Moesian-Thracian affiliated tribes (not exactly but tribes speaking a language issued from the same proto-language)?.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Genetically, we also see a big wave coming to Balkans from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixture. It should mean something, like appearance of some BA tribes in Balkans. Who were day? I think, these were the Greek tribes, later pushed into Greece by Late BA and IA wave of new arrivals from North, like Thracians and alike.


LeBrok, do you know the names of Balkan prehistoric cultures that received this big wave of people from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixtures?

----------


## LeBrok

> LeBrok, do you know the names of Balkan prehistoric cultures that received this big wave of people from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixtures?


No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was. 
The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
> Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was. 
> The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.


Bronze/Chalcolithic movements from Anatolia/Caucasus/Armenia up to Greece and the south of the Balkans, and then suddenly from there to Italy and the rest of the Balkans are plausible, and probably supported by archaeological evidence. Migrations of people who increased the Caucasian/CHG-like admixture. With regard to Italy it is possible that there were movements from Epirus and North of Greece to southern Italy, and from southern Italy to the rest of the country, following a south-north gradient, more north you go in Italy, more the impact of these migrations becomes less strong. In the thread on the last paper about southern Italy, we had started talking about that but then we were overwhelmed and distracted by the usual discussions.

----------


## IronSide

> No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
> Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was. 
> The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.


 hmmm .. I don't know, but I don't think there is much phylogenetic evidence for Greek tribes arriving from Caucasus in later BA, what I mean by that is the two haplogroups we think might be associated with proto Greek (E-V13 and R1b-CTS9219 downstream of Z2103) don't have diversity in Caucasus, If I remember right, not all subclades of E-V13 are in the Balkans, most are scattered in central Europe and some east and some west, the same situation for R1b-CTS9219, a deeper subclade of this is R1b-BY611, is definitely a Balkan group, the other branches of CTS9219 are in similar fashion to E-V13 clades mostly central European.

So Greeks probably came from the north not the east.

The increase in Caucasian admixture probably happened earlier, maybe the early BA or CA, the only Caucasian expanding people were Kura Araxians, but their culture never reached the Balkans, and I feel we're empowering it too much, it's really a mysterious gap in prehistory. 

The decrease in steppe admixture in late BA Armenia could be associated with a migration, Arame's post in another thread describes it better 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post502609

----------


## LATGAL

There are potential movements (the cultural exchange is a given, either way, especially by Mycenaean times) that can connect parts of Greece with Bronze Age Anatolia. I'm not entirely sure about the rest of the Balkans and Tuscany, though parts of Italy show a similar -ss- and -nt- toponymical substratum as potentially the one that connects Greece with Anatolia (and if it is a Bronze Age rather than an earlier one). Someone else will have to point out if the connections between Italy and the Aegean/Greece look like potential movements rather than just trade and cultural exchange at that point in time. I suppose Pax Augusta thinks so.

Of course there are also plenty of historical events that unite those regions so perhaps this change was very gradual and/or happened at different rates in different regions.

We'll see soon I suppose. Italy and the south Balkans are both unsampled for the relevant period.

----------


## LeBrok

> hmmm .. I don't know, but I don't think there is much phylogenetic evidence for Greek tribes arriving from Caucasus in later BA, what I mean by that is the two haplogroups we think might be associated with proto Greek (E-V13 and R1b-CTS9219 downstream of Z2103) don't have diversity in Caucasus, If I remember right, not all subclades of E-V13 are in the Balkans, most are scattered in central Europe and some east and some west, the same situation for R1b-CTS9219, a deeper subclade of this is R1b-BY611, is definitely a Balkan group, the other branches of CTS9219 are in similar fashion to E-V13 clades mostly central European.


I don't know much about specific subclades to connect them to possible migration.




> So Greeks probably came from the north not the east.
> 
> The increase in Caucasian admixture probably happened earlier, maybe the early BA or CA, the only Caucasian expanding people were Kura Araxians, but their culture never reached the Balkans, and I feel we're empowering it too much, it's really a mysterious gap in prehistory.


 I don't think, it necessarily needs to be connected to any of big cultures expansion. Could have been conglomeration of smaller tribes and ethnic groups in Anatolia being pushed into Balkans by incoming others, maybe from Steppe or Iran, or climatic factors. Or long steady trickle of people through entire Bronze Age.
We see many times, through history, movements of people happening through Anatolia into Balkans from East to West, but very rarely (only Macedonian Greeks) from West to East.

----------


## DuPidh

> I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others). 
> 
> Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.
> 
> I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2: 
> - Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....
> 
> good night.


J2b+j2a are early farmers. As such not Illyrians, probably Pellazg. R1a are the indoEuropeans who brought the Illyrian language, whom Alvanos identify with, as such the real Illyrians. R1a is associated with the domestication of horses and probably with the invention of the wheel,as such a lot more agile people who could travel long distances and carry their belongings with them. After they settled and mixed with early farmers Illyrian, the language of R1a become dominant and everyone called themselves Illyrian from that point in time and on.

----------


## Fatherland

> J2b+j2a are early farmers. As such not Illyrians, probably Pellazg. R1a are the indoEuropeans who brought the Illyrian language, whom Alvanos identify with, as such the real Illyrians. R1a is associated with the domestication of horses and probably with the invention of the wheel,as such a lot more agile people who could travel long distances and carry their belongings with them. After they settled and mixed with early farmers Illyrian, the language of R1a become dominant and everyone called themselves Illyrian from that point in time and on.


There are many fallacies in your theories.

No J2b2 aDNA was yet to be found among farmers. Movements of haplogroups was more complex than this theory of yours.

Illyrians were R1b, not R1a. Literally no R1a-carriers entered the mountains until the Slavs.
During the Indo-European movements, R1a-carriers always kept to the lowlands/plains.


Haplogroups that became Illyrians:

----------


## Fustan

@DuPidh

It appears your arguments are all based on that Albanians are Pelasgians, which is completely wrong and is actually considered an obsolete theory.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...lasgian_theory

----------


## DuPidh

> There are many fallacies in your theories.
> 
> No J2b2 aDNA was yet to be found among farmers. Movements of haplogroups was more complex than this theory of yours.
> 
> Illyrians were R1b, not R1a. Literally no R1a-carriers entered the mountains until the Slavs.
> During the Indo-European movements, R1a-carriers always kept to the lowlands/plains.
> 
> 
> Haplogroups that became Illyrians:


 Tracing the genetic ancestry of 200 undergraduate students

By Doctor Spenser Wells min 26 off the video. See the video. Dr Spenser says otherwise

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## Fatherland

> Tracing the genetic ancestry of 200 undergraduate students
> 
> By Doctor Spenser Wells min 26 off the video. See the video. Dr Spenser says otherwise


That video is from 2011. Based on old, outdated information. They are using sample finds spanning from the year 2000 when haplogroup research was still primitive.

You are 6 years too late. As I said: No J2b2 among Neolithic farmers.

Farmers were predominantly G2a from Anatolia.

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## DuPidh

> @DuPidh
> 
> It appears your arguments are all based on that Albanians are Pelasgians, which is completely wrong and is actually considered an obsolete theory.
> 
> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...lasgian_theory


I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry

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## Fatherland

> I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry


Albanians have nothing to do with the Pellasgians, leave those fairytales to the hyper-nationalist Albanians. We came from somewhere in the Dinaric mountainchain as attested by the three main haplogroups among Ghegs found by ancient DNA.

Albanian language is a mix of those along with more modern non-genetic cultural influences of other languages.

The only main Neolithic farmers were G2a who were annihilated by conquerors.


Some clueless posters don't even realize that J2b1 is almost as distant in split age with J2b2 as R1a is with R1b alone! 15 600 years!

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## Fustan

> I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry


This is all complete nonsense and you are an utter fool considering you are following an obsolete theory. You can pollute another thread with these speculative, baseless and outdated posts while me and Fatherland base it on set-in-stone genetics.

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## DuPidh

> Albanians have nothing to do with the Pellasgians, leave those fairytales to the hyper-nationalist Albanians. We came from somewhere in the Dinaric mountainchain as attested by the three main haplogroups among Ghegs found by ancient DNA.
> 
> Albanian language is a mix of those along with more modern non-genetic cultural influences of other languages.
> 
> The only main Neolithic farmers were G2a who were annihilated by conquerors.


Where do you see nationalism? You assume that Albanian territories were empty and somehow Illyrians came from North and filled the vacuum? What about the European connection? Which puts Hellenes and Illyrians at the same place in some past time. If Greek territories were inhabited by Pellazg why Albanian territories were empty according to your supposition?

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## DuPidh

> This is all complete nonsense and you are an utter fool considering you are following an obsolete theory. You can pollute another thread with these speculative, baseless and outdated posts while me and Fatherland base it on set-in-stone genetics.


 So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.

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## Fatherland

> So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.


Autosomal similarity means nothing. Albanians are very different to Greeks and Italians in ACTUAL genetic relatedness(except the Arberesh ones along with people with Messapian ancestry and some intact Arvanites).

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## Fustan

> So how do you explain genetic similarity of Italy and Albania? Common sense similar genetics means similar people. Pellasgs make a lot of sense to bridge the gap.


Autosomal DNA is in it's infancy and will stay that way for decades if not more. It is not to be taken very seriously. Y-DNA is much better to trace population movements, and Y-DNA is what this entire thread is about while you're going on about your moronic theories.

But speaking of Y-DNA it is very simple. It is because of Illyrian and later medieval Albanian settlement in Italy. Apulia for example is full of J2b2-PH1751 which is a region that was settled by Messapians (who were Illyrians or Indo-European).

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## Trojet

DuPidh,
"R1a" Illyrian haplogroup? Not a single evidence of that.
Fatherland and Fustan are spot on. I don't really need to add anything, but you seem to be talking very general when it comes to Y-DNA. It's evident by the fact that you seem to lump all "J2b" together. As Fatherland said, the split between J2b1 and J2b2 is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b and their split was not in the Balkans. Furthermore, in ancient DNA J2b1-M205 has been found three times in the Levant region, while *J2b2a-L283 which is the exclusive Albanian J2b branch, has been found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia)*, and coincides with the time period that Illyrians first appear in the western Balkans. Nowadays, with combination of DNA from ancient bones and modern deep clade distribution, we have much more data than even just a couple of years ago.

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## LATGAL

> We see many times, through history, movements of people happening through Anatolia into Balkans from East to West, but very rarely (only Macedonian Greeks) from West to East.


Well, there were definitely movements from the Balkans into Anatolia in the Early Bronze Age. I don't want to write any complete nonsense on this topic since it's not fresh on my mind so I'll refer to the first three volumes of The Cambrige Ancient History and the Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia which are of interest here. After that, we have the documented and not as hypothetical Mycenaean presence in the Late Bronze Age and the Phrygian migration from the Balkans (which left traces there, in Illyria, Epirus, Macedonia and Thrace as 'Bryges') in the early Iron Age that seems to have benefitted (or even helped cause?) from the post-Hittite vacuum of power along with some other potential migrations of "Mysians", Thracians etc. which I'm sure you're aware of.

Anatolia too definitely needs to be sampled more.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> DuPidh,
> "R1a" Illyrian haplogroup? Not a single evidence of that.
> Fatherland and Fustan are spot on. I don't really need to add anything, but you seem to be talking very general when it comes to Y-DNA. It's evident by the fact that you seem to lump all "J2b" together. As Fatherland said, the split between J2b1 and J2b2 is almost as old as the split between R1a and R1b and their split was not in the Balkans. Furthermore, in ancient DNA J2b1-M205 has been found three times in the Levant region, while *J2b2a-L283 which is the exclusive Albanian J2b branch, has been found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia)*, and coincides with the time period that Illyrians first appear in the western Balkans. Nowadays, with combination of DNA from ancient bones and modern deep clade distribution, we have much more data than even just a couple of years ago.


Everything you say is reasonable. But can you name those three samples in the Levant? Because I think they don't label all three as such. (?)

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## Milan.M

This was in reality Illyria proper of Pliny;
Only parts of Montengro/south Dalmatia and North Albania



Then the province of Illyricum 



And the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum Constantine sons


So the Illyrian thing is not very clear,also their first mention.

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## Trojet

> Everything you say is reasonable. But can you name those three samples in the Levant? Because I think they don't label all three as such. (?)


Good point. Perhaps *Maciamo* will take a note of this because he seems to lump all "J2b" together and seems to think they migrated together since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp, as suggested by the title of this thread. Furthermore, he currently doesn't even mention these ancient J2b1 samples on his J2 page.

*Ancient J2b1 samples:*

*1. I1730 North-Western Jordan Early Bronze Age 2489-2299 calBCE was tested J2b1-PF7331 aka M205.*
Source: https://j2-m172.info/2016/06/first-a...first-farmers/

*2. Bronze Age Sidon, Lebanon. One individual from ca. 1700 BC was tested as J2b-M12(xJ2b2a-L283). Since he is negative for J2b2a, he most likely is J2b1-M205.*
Sources: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...er-et-al-2017)
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/26/142448

*3. Ancient Egyptian mummy:
JK2911 Pre-Ptolemaic 769–560 BC is J2b1-PF7314 aka M205*
Sources: https://genetiker.wordpress.com
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-mummy-genomes

*4. Roman era Gladiator 3DRIF-26 was tested as J2b1-M205. His Autosomals suggest he came from the Middle East.*
Source: https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogeno...ddle-eastener/

*Bottom line*: Sample I4331 from Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) dated 1700-1500 BC, which Maciamo bases his theory on this thread, was tested *J2b2a-L283* and not J2b1, as can be seen here. Today J2b2a-M241>L283 by far reaches maximum frequency among Albanians (currently 33% among Northern Albanian tribes).

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## Fustan

Great post Trojet. I have noticed that a lot of people in this forum and as you said, including the creator of this site Maciamo himself are not just lumping J2b all together, but also the European and Indian clade of J2b2. You'd think that the creator of Eupedia would know better, but I guess that it's sadly not the case.

Maybe I've been spoiled by the great and informed users of Anthrogenica considering people here seem to have no idea what they are talking about regarding even the most simplest concepts on haplogroups.

The OP should be renamed and edited. Especially the title.

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## Trojet

> I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).


Do you know if your father's​ line belongs to any tribe? If so, perhaps we can make an educated guess about your Y-DNA ;) Not sure if you're aware, but we do have an Albanian Project at FTDNA. IMO, you should've tested at FTDNA (Y37+) for a better Y-DNA classification. But either way, do let us know your result from Living DNA.

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## Gllmnik

> the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory
> 
> garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video



Link for this video please?

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## Fatherland

> the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory
> 
> garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video


It is most likely not Ancient Germanic, but related to it in a broader Indo-European context. Let's not set everything in stone so quickly yet.

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## Balkanite

What Sile is trying to convince you about that video by Garret and Reich is one huge lie and distortion of the speech. I KNOW he hasnt even seen it. You know why? Because i saw it, and they only bring up that language tree(albanian brnaching of germanic) as an example of how a language tree looks like. He points out EXPLICITLY that he does not know if that tree is more correct than the thousands of other language trees which have been proposed through the centuries. I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video. If Sile had watched the speech he would have known that. But he would obviously rather just post something completely out of context, and mislead several other posters. Go watch it and you can see how Sile was just distorting things.


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## Bergin

> I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video.


Can you please resent the link to that video, I missed it in the mayhem. Thanks

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## Balkanite

Of course :)
Here you go,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting

Make sure it is the one from 29 april(the link should be correct though). The date will show up on one of the first PowerPoint slides.
And also skip a few minutes pg the video, because if i remember correctly there is just blank screen for the first few minutes.



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## blevins13

Very interesting 


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## Fatherland

Could we get a J2b2 map done? I see there is a J2b1 one. 

But since J2b2-L283 only exists in Europe it would be interesting to see this.

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## Garrick

> J2b2-L283 is only found among Europeans so far, Ancient and Modern, so it has its core here.


No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).



About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.

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## Fatherland

> No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).
> 
> 
> 
> About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.


That is not the one we are discussing about, you sneaky one, this is:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/



Downrated due to your lack of providing anything meaningful to a discussion.

Garrick tried to fool people 1599 times now.

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## Leka

> No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).
> 
> 
> 
> About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.


Most likely a European settler. L283 samples that are Z585-, all within Europe:

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## Garrick

@Fatherland

No. You are wrong.

And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.

There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.

What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.

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## Fatherland

Double Post

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## Fatherland

> @Fatherland
> 
> No. You are wrong.
> 
> And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.
> 
> There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.
> 
> What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.


J2b2-L283 as you can see in the post above you is only upstreams in Europe and Europe only.

For all the offensive and absurd remarks you have made in your vast number of 1,458 posts should be more than enough to keep you locked in a dungeon and the key thrown away.

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## Garrick

> J2b2-L283 as you can see in the post above you is only upstreams in Europe and Europe only.
> 
> For all the offensive and absurd remarks you have made in your vast number of 1,458 posts should be more than enough to keep you locked in a dungeon and the key thrown away.


No Fatherelend. Your try to discredit me is illusion, there is no real reason to do this.

Readers understand what I speak. There are at least two possible direction of entering to the Balkans. I don't speak if one of them or both are correct or no. Things are more complex in relation to the attempt of trivialization.

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## Fatherland

> No Fatherelend. Your try to discredit me is illusion, there is no real reason to do this.
> 
> Readers understand what I speak. There are at least two possible direction of entering to the Balkans. I don't speak if one of them or both are correct or no. Things are more complex in relation to the attempt of trivialization.


It is only complex when you are trying to make it so through deceitful measures.

Things are more simple than they ever were, now with access to Ancient genomes.

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## Garrick

> It is only complex when you are trying to make it so through deceitful measures.
> 
> Things are more simple than they ever were, now with access to Ancient genomes.


You will learn. Trivialization is big mistake overall not only here, this is well-intentioned.

It is clear that this haplogroup is mostly in Europe and Russia, especially older lineages in Itally. But you can see it is found in several other places. It means it could move in different directions. And of course from Europe and Russia there, it is possible too, not only toward Europe. Directions of movements can be diverse. 

For me is mostly interesting which European cultures in past from Russian steppe to cultures to the start of new era can be associated with this lineage.

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## Garrick

@Leka
Nobody challenged that.
However it is confirmed presence of the L283 out of Europe (Middle East, one sample Ancient Armenia, etc).
Surely there are many possibilities, people are moving in all directions.
But direction of movement J2b2-L283 carriers from Russia probably was back via Caucasus and Anatolia and Bosphours to Balkans or after Caucasus, and part of Anatolia, across sea.

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## Bergin

> However it is confirmed presence of the L283 out of Europe (Middle East, one sample Ancient Armenia, etc).


Is there a source for this? It is important

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## Nik

@Garrick 

Your reputation for being sneaky and deceitful while hiding under the umbrella of a calm and civilized person is established enough to make everyone doubt your statements. 

Weren't you shown in another topic that L283 was a European marker few days back? 

And does the confirmed presence outside Europe really mean so much to you? Don't tell me it's part of your sneaky theory of how Albanians come from Caucasus. 

Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian. I bet if they find I2a-Din in Iron Age Kurdistan you will call it a Thracian marker left from Alexander's troops, as long as it fits your agenda.

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## Garrick

> @Garrick 
> 
> Your reputation for being sneaky and deceitful while hiding under the umbrella of a calm and civilized person is established enough to make everyone doubt your statements. 
> 
> Weren't you shown in another topic that L283 was a European marker few days back? 
> 
> And does the confirmed presence outside Europe really mean so much to you? Don't tell me it's part of your sneaky theory of how Albanians come from Caucasus. 
> 
> Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian. I bet if they find I2a-Din in Iron Age Kurdistan you will call it a Thracian marker left from Alexander's troops, as long as it fits your agenda.


No. Your suspicion is that there is some "hidden intention" in my posts. It does not exist. Read carefully each of the several posts. In principle, there is no need to look for something where it does not exist.

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## LABERIA

> @Fatherland
> 
> No. You are wrong.
> 
> And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.
> 
> There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.
> 
> What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.


Who are this respectable authors, can you quote some of them? 
Because i know other respectable authors, like Bonfante for example who had this idea of Illyrians spreading on the opposed direction, from Balkans in the south east direction.

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## Garrick

> @Garrick 
> 
> Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian.


Illyrians didn't exist in the Balkans in 5485 BC. They were not in 2725 BC. So E-V13 (5485 BC) and R1b Z2103 (2725 BC) found in present day Croatia nothing to do with Illyrians.

About Illyrians we can speak they exist 1000 BC in the best case 1300 BC (different sources 1300-1000 BC).

Even proto-Illyrians (they are not yet Illyrians, it is difference) in the Balkans are 2000 BC, not before.

So only J2b2 L283 can be proto-Illyrian. But proto-Illyrians formed around Danube. 

Maybe that J2b2 L283 has better explanation.

Mycenaeans developed complex trade network in Mediterranean since 17th till 11 century BC. They trade with several counties including Italy, from south to north. They probably brought J2b2 L283 in Italy and beyond, wherever they traded. In the isle of Brach was one of Mycenaean points. We can see isle of Brach is very near location in Veliki Vanik where J2b2 L283 is found.


It could be maybe Mycenaean origin.

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## Fatherland

Autosomal of the Bronze Age J2b2-L283 sample from Veliki Vanik



Orange: Yamnaya_Samara
Grey: Anatolia_Neolithic
Blue: WHG
Red: EHG

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## blevins13

> The *Iliad* is an epic poem, composed around 800-725 B.C. and *written* down sometime between 725 and 675 B.C.
> 
> that's 1185BC to when it occurred, to when it is written , say 450 to 500 years after


It is very strange that people take seriously a poem that describes a beautiful story that happened 500 years before it was written......fairly tales are not historical facts.


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## Johane Derite

In Appian's Roman History (Book 10 - Illyrian Wars), he describes what he knows of the origins of the Illyrians. This is chapter 1:

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## Gash

That Bronze Age Dalmatian was pretty identical to Albanians , it was just more Western / Northern shifted. the J2b2 sample will probably turn out the same. Seems like we mixed with a native population that shifted us more South and eventually maybe East and also possible some Iron Age people. This could be from genetics such as the one found in Bulgaria which was very South or the one e1b Neolithic found in Dalmatia. also Iron Age sample found in Montenegro that was very North East. 

So seems like we were mostly Bronze Age invaders . The Ilyrians were believed to be mostly bronze age invaders, debunks Coon who claimed them as Iron Age invaders. I think he was wrong. 

Its similarity with Italy is nothing unusual and we all get that. Its South Central Europe it scored on DNA LAND is basically Balkan as many Balkan people get that. Dna land isnt very good. and its just genetic similarity with Italy rather than ancestry . Same for Sardinian. And south west europe. the sample was basically 79% Balkan + 21 North West Europe. that North West Europe making it shift North West. 

From what I gather , some of us haven't really changed that much. I remember a sample of late bronze age found in Montenegro that plotted with Bulgarians. It was more East than this other Bronze Age sample and more South possibly. It was even closer to us. Could it be that the one in Dalmatia was mixed with something or the other way around.... 

Some Southern shifted Albanians were closer to the sample found in Bulgaria due to Neolithic shared ancestry so such people haven't changed that much either. I don't believe it's a historical Thracian given its date. Almost looks genetically Neolithic.

Some other Iron Age samples from Bulgaria were plotting with Austrians basically. I believe they were of a later date . Thracians possibly formed from a mix of such genetics.

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