# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  How rare is T*?

## sepheroni

Hello,

I just got my results from 23andme last month and it shows my Y haplogroup as T.

I looked and I don't have the M320/T1 mutation and P77 (T2 mutation / i4000222) doesn't seem to be tested with 23andme, or can it be that it is missing from my test results?

That would make me a T* or T2 right?

I am still doing research on my paternal line, but I don't have too much data yet, just going 4 generations back, and it probably came from Portugal as I was born in Brazil and have a portuguese last name (Souza).


Does anybody know for sure if 23andme tests for T2, if not, where can I get that tested?

Thanks!

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## adamo

T is a very rare paternal haplogroup....it is found in highest frequencies in Jordan,Egypt,Iraq and parts of Iran....found in lower frequencies among Turks, armenians....in Europe it peaks near the Aegean Sea off of islands like Chios and near Crete and also across Italy, Spain and Portugal is a 2-6% average in those more Mediterranean regions I would say. The Horn of Africa (Eritrea,Somalis,Ethiopia) actually has a considerable high. It can also be found in 5-15% of Egyptian lines and 15-20% of Jordanian lines and about 10-15% of Iraqi lines, 10-13% of Assyrian lines towards Anatolia....several cities across Iran have interesting frequencies 12-15% range which is a global high. Portuguese Jews have 15% T, and so do Kurdish and Iraqi Jews.....Iranian Jews also have 14%. It is present in 12% of Palestinian males 10% of Armenians but is rarer in Syria and Lebanon. It seems to be barely present in Ashkenazi Jews, or Jews from Israel though oddly. Among all Jews it is most prevalent in the mizrahim Jews of the Iraq/Iran regions.

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## adamo

It's interesting that we both have T and we are both Mediterranean Europeans. Our haplogroup most likely arrived more recently to Europe from the Middle East, during the Neolithic revolution 10,000-15,000 years ago.

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## sepheroni

Yes, about the jewish, that might be where I got mine, 23andme shows me with 0.1% of Ashkenazi, it is a very low percentage, but it is there.

But I am really curious to know what subclade I am. I see you have T1a1a, where did you test yours?

I also saw that the SNPs on 23andme seems to be different than the ones here or other websites, they have:
T1-M320 (rs13447374) - I don't have the mutation
T2-P77 (i4000222) - My results don't have that data (or 23andme doesn't test it at all)

While eupedia shows:
T1-L206
T1a-M70
.... P77 would be T1a1a1

My L208 (rs35815655) shows as -- on my raw data, that means the data is missing or it was not tested right?

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## adamo

T is found in Jewish populations, as are J1,J2 and E3b. This does not necessarily make it Jewish, although there are certainly Jewish networks within the haplogroup T branch. Are you L208 as well? I did my test with genographic project 2.0 they told me I was M70 and L299+ (T1a1) but upon reviewing my subclades after transferring to FTDNA I saw I was L208+ as well so I guess I'm T1a1a. What you stated is correct M-184 is T*, T1 is L206, T1a is M70, L299 is T1a1, L208 is T1a1a, P77 is T1a1a1 and Z-709 is just downstream of that.

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## adamo

And sepheroni....usually when we are dealing with 0.1 of a percentage point, we can deduce that's a really small amount! Lol

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## sepheroni

Yes, I know it is a very low percentage. But it is there! lol, also if you look at the other side, 0.1% corresponds to one jewish person on your linage only 6-7 generations ago (or more people before that), so it is not that far away.

Looking at my raw data and at the snp table, this is what I found from my results:

T1a/M70 - Yes (23andme calls it only T)
T1a1/L299 - No data - I guess 23andme doesn't test that one?
T1a1a/L208 - No call - from their FAQ: Occasionally, a user's data may not allow us to determine his or her genotype confidently at a particular SNP. It is possible that future review will allow us to call the genotype, but until that time, the data does not appear.
T1a1a1/P77 - No data

So that makes me T1a so far.

I was wondering if other companies test for L299 and P77 or even further?

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## adamo

Sure, family tree DNA has very deep subclade testing options available...to me your T was either inherited by Jewish or ancient Phoenician ancestors colonizing probably southern Portugal. I doubt it has anything to with Greeks.

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## sepheroni

Thanks!

I think I will do a testing with familytree, I just checked the other snp's from the T tree, and 23andme didn't test any of them

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## adamo

Sounds good, good to know a Portuguese fellow is T as well lol

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## Sile

> Yes, I know it is a very low percentage. But it is there! lol, also if you look at the other side, 0.1% corresponds to one jewish person on your linage only 6-7 generations ago (or more people before that), so it is not that far away.
> 
> Looking at my raw data and at the snp table, this is what I found from my results:
> 
> T1a/M70 - Yes (23andme calls it only T)
> T1a1/L299 - No data - I guess 23andme doesn't test that one?
> T1a1a/L208 - No call - from their FAQ: Occasionally, a user's data may not allow us to determine his or her genotype confidently at a particular SNP. It is possible that future review will allow us to call the genotype, but until that time, the data does not appear.
> T1a1a1/P77 - No data
> 
> ...


You should look here for your rs numbers to see if they have a SNP
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html
L208
T1a1a
Page2
rs35815655
6796443
6736443
C->T


check for others

in regards to 0.1% ashkenazi for 23andme............this means that 1 person of your last 1024 related people maybe had some jewish in them. It likely it was a jewish girl who gave up her religion for love. If it was male , you ashkenazi/sephanic would be higher.

23andme state , they if its less than 5% it could be just "noise"


I was told ( most likely crap, but who knows), that you can drill into your rs numbers in 23andme to reveal other rs numbers in which you can discover a trail in the globe of your ancestors. some of mine are 
L1b2 = L-M317 , with origins L-M317 is found at low frequency in Central Asia, Southwest Asia, and Central Europe 

J2a1h2a1b = J-M318 ......Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and southern Russia .
I do not know how factual it is

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## adamo

Sile, can you try tans figure out what level I'm at in he T phylogeny?: 

CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11078+, CTS11358+, CTS11556+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1818+, CTS1996+, CTS2336+, CTS2611+, CTS2888+, CTS3271+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4085+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS484+, CTS4916+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS550+, CTS5532+, CTS5542+, CTS5690+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6000+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7169+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8065+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9163+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS931+, CTS9506+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L162+, L208+, L298+, L299+, L350+, L453+, L454+, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, L566+, L781+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5567+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5589+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5593+, PF5594+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5658+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF601+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7443+, PF7444+, PF7445+, PF7453+, PF7457+, PF7458+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, Z526+

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## sepheroni

Is there a website where you can upload your Y chromossome raw data and match against other users to try to find a trail? I saw only some for autosomal data.

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## Sile

> Is there a website where you can upload your Y chromossome raw data and match against other users to try to find a trail? I saw only some for autosomal data.


I do not know what Adamo is talking about, but the only site which keeps up to date trees records is below
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

If its not in the tree and not in any notes on the page, then the marker has not been assigned ................his marker from what I saw along the furthest branch is L208+ ...mine is L446+

As for yourself, a 23andme test only has all trees until start of 2009. Unsure what you should do. ask 
*AlpAstur*

*d'Aviyés Vilelas-Balsera*

he is project manager of T in 23andme .................you might be "related" ...............he asked me to compare and we are miles apart

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## adamo

According to my results, what subclade am I positive for?

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## adamo

Says I'm P128+, then I'm M89+, M70+, M272+, L566+, later on I'm L299+, L298+, L208+, L162+, L132+; what does that mean it's my genetic T sequence, what subclade am I.

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## Sile

> Says I'm P128+, then I'm M89+, M70+, M272+, L566+, later on I'm L299+, L298+, L208+, L162+, L132+; what does that mean it's my genetic T sequence, what subclade am I.


see post #14

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## adamo

Ultimately though one cannot deny the frequency of hg T in Quraish and Banu Hashim associated regions of the Middle East...te Hashemites former sharifs of arabia's Mecca region today rule Jordan and once ruled the Hejaz region (northern Saudi Arabia) and Iraq as well. The Banu Hashim were "pure" Adnani Arabs from the north and central regions of Saudi Arabia. The Quraish were on the Red Sea coast at about central Saudi Arabia....they extended though from Yemen/Oman in the south to Jordan and Iraq in the north through the influence of Hashemite people's, modern Hashemite titles of rulers and nobility are found across Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria and Iraq.

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## adamo

The Hashemites were known in Arabic as Hussaini's. People with the surname Al-Hussaini are descendants of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad through the lineage of his grandson Imam Husayn ibn Ali
Imam Husayn ibn Ali was the son of prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatima and son-in-law and Caliph Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib.
Husseinis are primarily found in the Arab world, South Asia, and Iran.

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## adamo

Today Hashemites have spread in many places where Muslims have ruled, namely Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Yemen, Djibouti, United Arab Emirates, Ethiopia, Northern Sudan, and Turkey. Some Hashemites in these countries carry the title Sayyid. Many members of the Banu Hashim have spread out across the world but so far there has been no attempt to register them all under one record. The Royal family of Morocco also claims ancestry from Ali (Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib) but they do not use Hashemite as their dynastic name. The Awan tribe of Pakistan also trace their ancestry from Ali.
The Awan deserve close attention, because of their historical importance and, above all, because they settled in the west, right up to the edge of Baluchi and Pashtun territory. Legend has it that their origins go back to Imam Ali and his second wife, Hanafiya. Historians describe them as valiant warriors who imposed their supremacy on the Janjua and other Rajput tribes in part of the Salt Range, and established large colonies all along the Indus to Sind, and a densely populated centre not far from Lahore. Such types of claims are very common in in the Indian subcontinent.

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## adamo

Seems in link with the spread of hg t

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## Seumas

After a couple of tests conducted by FTDNA I opted for a Raw Data Chromo2 test by BritainsDNA.
I was hoping to be able to use the data in the tools that FTDNA use, but unfortunately, they're quite different.
Does anyone know of any other tools available that could help me make sense of this raw data?
Thanks

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## adamo

Please; what ethnic origin are you??

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## Sile

> After a couple of tests conducted by FTDNA I opted for a Raw Data Chromo2 test by BritainsDNA.
> I was hoping to be able to use the data in the tools that FTDNA use, but unfortunately, they're quite different.
> Does anyone know of any other tools available that could help me make sense of this raw data?
> Thanks


show me a sample of your raw data, please!

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## Seumas

Apt




GG



negative

CTS10003
CC
negative

CTS10008
GG
positive

CTS10010
GG
negative

CTS10011
GG
positive

CTS10021
AA
negative

CTS10028
TT
negative

CTS10032
GG
negative

CTS10044
GG
negative

CTS10048
AA
negative

CTS10049
AA
negative

CTS10051
GG
negative

CTS10053
GG
negative

CTS10054
GG
negative

CTS10056
AA
negative

CTS1005
GG
negative

CTS10063
CC
negative

CTS10065
GG
negative

CTS10082
CC
negative

CTS10099
AA
negative

CTS10100
GG
negative

CTS10102
GG
negative

CTS10107
GG
negative

CTS10108
GG
negative

CTS10109
AA
negative

CTS10113
AA
negative

CTS10114
GG
negative

CTS10117
AA
negative

CTS1011
AA
negative

CTS10126
GG
negative

CTS10130
AA
negative

CTS10131
GG
negative

CTS10149
AA
negative

CTS10152
AA
negative

CTS10171
CC
negative

CTS10172
GG
negative

CTS10173
GG
negative

CTS10179
AA
negative

CTS1017
GG
negative

CTS10184
TT
negative

CTS10185
AA
negative

CTS101
AA
negative

CTS10206
TT
negative

CTS10209
GG
negative

CTS10210
AA
negative

CTS10228
AA
negative

CTS10234
AA
negative

CTS10239
CC
negative

CTS10243
AA
negative

CTS10245
AA
negative

CTS10248
AA
negative

CTS10268
GG
negative

CTS10274
AA
negative

CTS10277
GG
negative

CTS1027
AA
negative

CTS10283
GG
negative

CTS10286
CC
negative

CTS10289
AA
negative

CTS10298
AA
negative

CTS10299
AA
negative

CTS10300
AA
negative

CTS10303
AA
negative

CTS10305
AA
negative

CTS1030
AA
negative

CTS10311
GG
negative

CTS10317
GG
negative

CTS10320
GG
negative

CTS10322
AA
negative

CTS10323
AA
negative

CTS10324
TT
negative

CTS10328
AA
negative

CTS1032
GG
negative

CTS10331
AA
negative

CTS10333
AA
negative

CTS10334
AA
negative

CTS10336
CC
negative

CTS10351
AA
negative

CTS10355
AA
negative

CTS10357
GG
negative

CTS10404
CC
negative

CTS10407
AA
negative

CTS10408
AA
negative

CTS10410
CC
negative

CTS10412
AA
negative

CTS10416
AA
positive

CTS10427
CC
negative

CTS10430
CC
negative

CTS10433
GG
negative

CTS10435
CC
negative

CTS10440
GG
negative

CTS10443
GG
negative

CTS10449
CC
negative

CTS1045
GG
negative

CTS10461
AA
negative

CTS10468
CC
negative

CTS10472
CC
negative

CTS10473
CC
negative

CTS10489
GG
negative

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## Seumas

Adamo,
I don't know... until I had a DNA test, I thought I was Anglo/Celtic.
But the percentage of Haplogroup T-184 in the UK & Ireland is very low, I have an unproven link to a French Huguenot mercenary in Ireland that I theorised may have been a Crypto-Jew, but I'm still in the dark.
FTDNA have me as: T1a1a whereas BritainsDNA say I'm t-M184

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## adamo

You're right, T is found at 1% across the British isles; maybe 2% in France and about 5% in Italy. Sicily has 5-18% depending on the region; very rare in Europe.

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## Seumas

These are all the positive SNP matches I have:
CTS10008+, CTS10416+, CTS10517+, CTS10552+, CTS1066+, CTS11150+, CTS11226+, CTS11575+, CTS11656+, CTS11991+, CTS12057+, CTS12633+, CTS12773+, CTS12967+, CTS1315+, CTS1440+, CTS1701+, CTS1822+, CTS2254+, CTS2480+, CTS2607+, CTS2745+, CTS2886+, CTS2888+, CTS3219+, CTS3315+, CTS3626+, CTS3654+, CTS3818+, CTS3844+, CTS3849+, CTS4201+, CTS4293+, CTS4335+, CTS4416+, CTS4586+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS482+, CTS4846+, CTS4906+, CTS493+, CTS5139(+), CTS5175+, CTS5198+, CTS5248+, CTS5332+, CTS5334+, CTS543+, CTS5542+, CTS6000+, CTS6045+, CTS6214+, CTS6327+, CTS6376+, CTS6383+, CTS6437+, CTS6445+, CTS6618+, CTS6745+, CTS6887+, CTS7009+, CTS7169+, CTS7301+, CTS753+, CTS7664+, CTS7828+, CTS7855+, CTS7922+, CTS8004+, CTS8095+, CTS8202+, CTS8203+, CTS8397+, CTS8458+, CTS8533+, CTS8606+, CTS8857+, CTS8863+, CTS9065+, CTS9132+, CTS9268+, CTS9378+, CTS9436+, CTS9556+, CTS9566+, CTS9760+, CTS9970+, L1002+, L1013+, L1053+, L1084+, L1098+, L1105+, L1118+, L1123+, L1129+, L1130+, L1137+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1179+, L1220+, L132+, L162+, L298+, L299+, L352+, L438+, L440+, L453+, L454+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, L508+, L543+, L604+, L810+, L882+, L905+, L969+, M213+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M299+, M42+, M523+, P128+, P131+, P135+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P143+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P163+, P305+, PAGE078+, PAGE081+, PAGE129+, PF1030+, PF1067+, PF1081+, PF1252+, PF1253+, PF1416+, PF1695+, PF1911+, PF256+, PF2590+, PF2615+, PF2617+, PF2621+, PF2622+, PF2624+, PF2629+, PF2651+, PF2653+, PF2655+, PF2658+, PF2660+, PF2677+, PF2679+, PF2683+, PF2684+, PF2685+, PF2688+, PF2690+, PF2700+, PF2702+, PF2704+, PF2709+, PF2716+, PF2718+, PF2722+, PF2734+, PF2736+, PF2737+, PF2739+, PF2742+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2760+, PF2762+, PF2775+, PF3495+, PF3500+, PF5459+, PF5480+, PF5495+, PF5605+, PF5664+, PF626+, PF643+, PF653+, PF679+, PF733+, PF744+, PF825+, PF834+, PF869+, PF948+, S10421+, S10738+, S11330+, S11664+, S12490+, S12547(+), S13764+, S138+, S14236+, S1572+, S16059+, S163(+), S18921+, S19862!, S20315+, S20955+, S22849+, S23109+, S23125+, S26361+, S26911+, S27544+, S27668+, S3374+, S3509+, S4628+, S4629+, S6378+, S8235+, S826+, S8475+, S8556+, S8560+, S8563+, S8565+, S8567+, S8568+, S8569+, S8587+, S9040+, S9041+, S9158+, S959+, SRY10831(+), V102+, V104+, V126+, V168+, V186+, V187+, V221+, V226+, V241+, V29+, V41+, V52+, V9+, YSC1297+, Z526+

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## Sile

*T* L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• *T** -
• *T1* L206, L490, M193
• • *T1** -
• • *T1a* M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
• • • *T1a** -
• • • *T1a1* L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• • • • *T1a1** -
• • • • *T1a1a* L208/Page2, L905
• • • • • *T1a1a** -
• • • • • *T1a1a1* Z709
• • • • • • *T1a1a1** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a1a* P77
• • • • • *T1a1a2* P321
• • • • • • *T1a1a2** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a2a* P317
• • • *T1a2* L131
• • • • *T1a2** -
• • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* L446
• • • *T1a3* L1255


at seumas , you are T1a1a due to L905 ....red numbers is what you got ( i could have missed some )...I do not see M184 , but that could be britainsDNA default for T marker

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## American Idiot

> The Hashemites were known in Arabic as Hussaini's. People with the surname Al-Hussaini are descendants of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad through the lineage of his grandson Imam Husayn ibn Ali
> Imam Husayn ibn Ali was the son of prophet Muhammad's daughter Fatima and son-in-law and Caliph Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib.
> Husseinis are primarily found in the Arab world, South Asia, and Iran.


are you Shi'ite or something?...........just curious.

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## Seumas

> you are T1a1a due to L905 ....red numbers is what you got ( i could have missed some )...I do not see M184 , but that could be britainsDNA default for T marker


Yes, you're correct, they use M184 as the default

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## adamo

No. I'm italian, are you?

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## American Idiot

neither Italian nor Shi'ite............just a stupid American.

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## adamo

Oh okay : ). An American with roots in the British isles like most of the original founding fathers of the United States of America. I don't like being associated with Arabs, it ticks a nerve in me.

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## American Idiot

I was just joking when I said it. It wasnt a serious question.

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## adamo

lol I didn't take it personally big dude.

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## Sile

> Yes, you're correct, they use M184 as the default


well, next year you need to start writing ............T-L905 

adamo would have T-L208

while I need to say T-L446 for myself

long text is being phased out by companies

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## adamo

I still don't know Sile; my geno 2.0 stops at L299+ (T1a1), I'm assuming I'm L208 as well.

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