# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Do the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars descend from Carpathian Goths ?

## Maciamo

In the thread about the distribution of R1b-Z2103, I started analysing the Y-DNA data from the new Trofimova et al. 2015 paper in Russian (English summary here). I noticed that the Volga-Ural ethnic groups could be divided in four categories:

1) Uralic speakers with over 50% of Uralic Y-DNA (N1c1): *Mari, Komi, Udmurts and Besermyans*.

2) Uralic speakers with only a little bit of Uralic Y-DNA, but a lot of Germanic, Slavic and Balkanic Y-DNA : *Mordvins* (aka Mordovians).

3) Turkic speakers with a little Uralic and Turkic (N1c2) Y-DNA, and otherwise mostly Proto-Indo-European Y-DNA (R1a and R1b) : *Bashkirs*.

4) Turkic speakers with a little Uralic and Turkic (N1c2) Y-DNA, but a lot of Germanic, Slavic and Balkanic Y-DNA : *Chuvash and Tatars*.

What piqued my interest is the unique blend of Germanic, Slavic and Balkanic lineages found among the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars, who live side by side west of the Middle Volga region. This immediately reminded me of the genetic blend presumably brought by the *Goths* to Italy and Spain as originally discussed here and summarised here.

The combination of Germanic (I1, I2a2a, R1b-U106), Slavic (R1aCTS1211, R1a-Z282 and R1a-M458) and Balkanic (E-M78, G2a3, I2a1b, J1, J2a, J2b) lineages suggests that the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars could be descended from a branch of the 4th-century Goths from the Chernyakhov culture in Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

The Near Eastern haplogroups do look as if they had come straight from the Balkans and Carpathians because:


The dominant haplogroup is E-M78 (including E-V13 confirmed from FTDNA projects), not the Middle Eastern E-M34, which is completely absent.About half of haplogroup J2 is the Balkanic J2b. The roughly 50-50 proportion between J2a and J2b is only found in Southeast Europe.Most of the G2a is the (Indo-)European G2a3b1, not Middle Eastern subclades.There is some I2a1b too, which could either be Slavic or Balkanic. J1 is the rarest haplogroup, contrarily to the Middle East where it is the second most common after J2a. 

Trofimova et al. 2015 only tests about 50 samples from each ethnicity, which is not very representative in terms of frequencies, but gives a very good idea of what haplogroups are present in each group. 

*Mordovians*

- *Germanic* : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458

- *Slavic* : 32% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1.7% of R1a-Z282

- *Balkanic* : 10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of  G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*.

- *Uralic* : 10% of N1c1

- *Turkic* : 0% of N1c2


*Chuvash* 

- *Germanic* : 7% of I1, and 4.7% of R1a-M458

- *Slavic* : 18.6% of R1a-CTS1211 and 2.3% of R1a-Z282

- *Balkanic* : 14% of E-M78, 9.3% of J2a, 4.7% of J2b,4.7% of I2a1b, and 2.3% of J1.

- *Uralic* : 18.6% of N1c1

- *Turkic* : 9.3% of N1c2*


Tatars*

- *Germanic* : 9.5% of I1, 7% of R1b-U106, 3.9% of R1a-M458 and 1% I2-M223

- *Slavic* : 6.8% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1% of R1a-Z282

- *Balkanic* : 8% of  G2a3, 7.9% of J2a, 4% of J2b, 3% of E-M78, 2% of I2a1b and 1% of J1.

- *Uralic* : 15.3% of N1c1

- *Turkic* : 10.8% of N1c2

- *Mongolian* : 3.9% of C, 2% of Q, 1% of O

The main difference between the three groups is that only the Chuvash and Tatars carry about 10% of *Turkic N1c2*, which explains why they are Turkic speakers today. The Tatars also have 7% of Mongolian Y-DNA, surely an heritage of Genghis Khan's empire.

My hypothesis is that one group of Carpathian Goths migrated east across Ukraine and settled west of the Volga, where they mixed with the local Uralic (N1c1 + R1a-Z93) speakers, whose language they adopted. In the 7th century, the Bulgars, Turkic speakers from Central Asia, invaded the Volga region and created the Kingdom of Volga Bulgaria in what is now Chuvashia and Tatarstan. This explains why only the Chuvash and Tatars mixed with them and became Turkic speakers. The Mordovians, who lived further west, with no connection to the Volga, remained Uralic speakers.


*Goths or Swedish Vikings ?*

The only other possibility for the presence of Germanic haplogroup in Middle Volga ethnic groups would be an introgression from the *Varangian Vikings* from Sweden. The Goths having also originated in Sweden, the haplogroup proportion would be very similar. In both cases we could expect I1 to be the largest haplogroup, followed by R1b-U106, which is exactly the case here. 

The Varangians followed rivers on their drakars, including the Volga, which is why it cannot be excluded that they also contributed to some of the Germanic male lineages in the region, especially in Tatarstan, which is the region with the highest percentage of Germanic Y-DNA (24% among the Tuymazinsky Tatars). However there is no record (to my knowledge) of the Vikings ever coming to Mordovia, which is not adjacent to the Volga or any major river. I would therefore think that the Goths are the only candidate in their case. The Chuvash and Tatars may have complementary Gothic and Varangian Y-DNA. 


I checked the I1 subclades in the FTDNA projects for Mordovia and Tatarstan, and found the following subclades (N.B. no I1 subclade tested for Chuvashia).

- Mordovians: Z59, Z60, Z63 (2x), Z140 (2x), CTS743

- Tatars : Z63 (2x)

All these subclades are continental Germanic. Not a single one of them belong to the Scandinavian/Viking L22 branch. In fact they are only two branches : the West Germanic Z59>Z60>Z140 (CTS743 is a side branch of Z140, downstream of Z73) and the continental Z63. I wouldn't draw any conclusion from only two Tatar samples, but the Mordovian samples certainly do not look Viking in origin, and all the subclades present are compatible with a Gothic origin. Z63 in particular looks overwhelmingly Gothic in origin, being present in Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Z140 has also been found in Spain. Only Z73>CTS743 could be of Viking origin, as it is essentially found in Norway, Sweden and Finland. But it could also represent the branch of the Goths who remained in Scandinavia.

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## bicicleur

this is an intersting analyses and theory
as I don't have much knowledge of this matter, I don't have much to add, except what I read in your link re Chernyakhov culture :

*Decline[edit]*The Chernyakhov culture ends in the 5th century, attributed to the arrival of the Huns.[9] The collapse of the culture is no longer explained in terms of population displacement, although there_was_ an outmigration of Goths. Rather, more recent theories explain the collapse of the Chernyakhov culture in terms of a disruption of the hierarchical political structure that maintained it. John Mathews suggests that, despite its cultural homogeneity, a sense of ethnic distinction was kept between the disparate peoples. Some of the autochthonous elements persist,[10] and become even more widespread, after the demise of the Gothic elite – a phenomenon associated with the rise and expansion of the early Slavs.
So only the elite would have been displaced when the Huns arrived. Unless the Goths allowed ambitiuous autochtonic people to become part of the elite too, there would have no Balkanic nor Slavic DNA been displaced.
Converseley, if Balkanic and Slav DNA had become part of the Gothic elite, then it should also be found in Otrogoths and Visigoths

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## LeBrok

It is interesting and intriguing. To bad we have information hole of Dark Ages, from 500 to 1000 AD, to keep track what happened in the region. Perhaps population genetics can shine some light on it.

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## Kristiina

Maciamo, you say paradoxically that ”the Mordovian samples certainly do not look Viking in origin, and all the subclades present are compatible with a Gothic origin”. As Gothic homeland is said to be Sweden, you say instead that Goths arrived to Mordovia from the Carpathian basin: ”my hypothesis is that one group of Carpathian Goths migrated east across Ukraine and settled west of the Volga”. But, if Goths originally carried Scandinavian I1, why their I1 would have turned into Germanic I1 subclades in the Carpathian basin?

This map should show the route of the Goths to the southeast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogo...hernyakhov.PNG
If the Gothic I1 should have changed into Germanic I1 there, I must note that that area has a high I2 frequency and I do not know if Z59, Z60, Z63 (2x), Z140 (2x), CTS743 are really frequent in the Carpathian basin.

Then, I did not find support in Wikipedia for your idea that Goths migrated to Mordovia. At least, this map is not saying that they headed east to the Russian heartland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrati...n_Empire_1.png

When you take a look at this map http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...6/figure/fig4/ you see that I1 frequency does not correlate very well with the Gothic migrations. What is your your theory for a high frequency of I1 in Northern Russia? There are somewhat higher frequencies of I1 also in Belarus, e.g. 6.8% in Central Belarus, 6.85% in Western Belarus, 8.26% in WP Belarus. Do you think that they are also a result of Germanic migrations?

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## Fire Haired14

Instead of saying "descend" can you say "have decent from". Y DNA doesn't tell the full story, but sometimes it's treated as if does on this forum.

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## Maciamo

> Maciamo, you say paradoxically that ”the Mordovian samples certainly do not look Viking in origin, and all the subclades present are compatible with a Gothic origin”. As Gothic homeland is said to be Sweden, you say instead that Goths arrived to Mordovia from the Carpathian basin: ”my hypothesis is that one group of Carpathian Goths migrated east across Ukraine and settled west of the Volga”. But, if Goths originally carried Scandinavian I1, why their I1 would have turned into Germanic I1 subclades in the Carpathian basin?


There is nothing paradoxical about it. *All* Germanic people have their roots in Scandinavia, but not all of them left Scandinavia. Imagine various ancient Germanic tribes as members of a large family. Those who moved out of the house aren't in the house anymore, but somewhere else. That's why I1 subclades have different geographic distributions today.




> Then, I did not find support in Wikipedia for your idea that Goths migrated to Mordovia. At least, this map is not saying that they headed east to the Russian heartland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrati...n_Empire_1.png


If it was something already known from historical sources, what would be the point of this thread ? Nobody knew about it, but that's what DNA is telling us.




> When you take a look at this map http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...6/figure/fig4/ you see that I1 frequency does not correlate very well with the Gothic migrations. What is your your theory for a high frequency of I1 in Northern Russia? There are somewhat higher frequencies of I1 also in Belarus, e.g. 6.8% in Central Belarus, 6.85% in Western Belarus, 8.26% in WP Belarus. Do you think that they are also a result of Germanic migrations?


Why are you showing me distribution maps from a single isolated study, when I made much more reliable maps based on all studies published to date ? 

All I1 is of Germanic origin, even in Belarus. Please read my history of haplogroup I1.

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## Sile

> There is nothing paradoxical about it. *All* Germanic people have their roots in Scandinavia, but not all of them left Scandinavia. Imagine various ancient Germanic tribes as members of a large family. Those who moved out of the house aren't in the house anymore, but somewhere else. That's why I1 subclades have different geographic distributions today.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was something already known from historical sources, what would be the point of this thread ? Nobody knew about it, but that's what DNA is telling us.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you showing me distribution maps from a single isolated study, when I made much more reliable maps based on all studies published to date ? 
> ...


you need to incorporate this important group in your moldovan numbers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107901

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17147693

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## Kristiina

I appreciate your writing that ”evidence emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary that haplogroup I1 was in fact present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries.”'

”The small group of farmers from the early LBK culture from Hungary might have formed a blend of I1 and G2a men. Yet distinct families would have spread in different directions and met varying successes in their expansion. It would appear that a founder effect in the northern LBK population led to a sudden explosion of I1 lineages, perhaps in part thanks to their better knowledge of the Central European terrain and fauna (since hunting was typically practised side by side to agriculture to complement the farmers' diet).”

Why this Mordovian or Russian I1 could not have its origin in LBK and TRB? Mordovians have also other Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a, E-M78 and J2. Also Belarussians have G2, E-M78 and J2.

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## gyms

Maciamo!
I usually appreciate your posts but this is pure nonense.Too much science fiction.You lack knowledge on important issues such as history and linguistics.

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## Robert6

Northern and Eastern Uralic people have many N1c2
N1c2 is not Turkic haplogroup

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## Robert6

Eastern Turkic and Mongolian Y-dna
http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/5e/dabc385a30a4.jpg

Eastern Turkic people are mostly
a)R1a subclade Z93+ Z95- Z94-
b)Q (subclade Q1a3a)
c)N1c1a(old N1c1)
d)N1c2(old N1b)
e)R1a subclade Z2125+ Z2123-
f)R1b1a1(old R1b1b1)

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## Maciamo

> I appreciate your writing that ”evidence emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary that haplogroup I1 was in fact present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries.”'
> 
> ”The small group of farmers from the early LBK culture from Hungary might have formed a blend of I1 and G2a men. Yet distinct families would have spread in different directions and met varying successes in their expansion. It would appear that a founder effect in the northern LBK population led to a sudden explosion of I1 lineages, perhaps in part thanks to their better knowledge of the Central European terrain and fauna (since hunting was typically practised side by side to agriculture to complement the farmers' diet).”
> 
> Why this Mordovian or Russian I1 could not have its origin in LBK and TRB? Mordovians have also other Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a, E-M78 and J2. Also Belarussians have G2, E-M78 and J2.


I understand your confusion. The thing is that the Neolithic I1 sample belongs to a branch that is now extinct, or was just I1*. Apart from a handful of samples from Germany, the Netherlands or Britain (of probable Anglo-Saxon origin), all modern I1 people are positive for DF29 (I1a) or Z131 (I1b). Actually 99% of I1 today belong to subclades under L22, Z58, Z63 or CTS6364. The TMRCA ancestors for these deeper subclades is inferior to 3000 to 2500 years, and therefore would have originated during the Nordic Bronze Age or the Germanic Iron Age. All these subclades have members in Scandinavia _and_ Germany. There isn't any major subclade that does not look Germanic at all. The I1 found in Belarus, Ukraine or Russia belongs to deep subclades also found in Scandinavia or Germany, not uniquely Slavic clades. For example, many Russian samples outside the Volga-Ural region belong to subclades such as L22>Y3549>Z74>L813+, L22>CTS2208>CTS5476+, Z58>Z59>Z60>L1302+ or Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140+, which all have very recent TMRCA (under 2000 years). The same is true for the Mordovian samples, who belong to deep subclades like DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140 or DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>CTS7362>CTS9352>Z73>CTS743. This is why I can confidently say that all of them are Germanic.

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## Melancon

I believe I wrote about the strangeness of Mordvins having *I1*. In my previous post _What language group did Europeans speak in the Neolithic? Vasconic languages? Uralic?_


Is it a recent contribution; or something that has been in the population since the Neolithic?

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## Kristiina

If you go to Terry Rob’s page (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/), you see that Z59 is as frequent in Russia as in Germany, also Z60 is as frequent in Russia as in Germany, Z63 is typical of Poland and Ukraine. Only Z140 is typically German. That means that only 3 out of 7 Mordovian I1 seem to have a clear Germanic origin.

As for the age estimations, the age of the Scandinavian cluster is 3400 BC and the age of the Finnish cluster is 3500 BC. The age of I1 in Germany is 4,400 BC and in Northern Europe 5,500 BC and nobody seems to have given an age estimate to I1 clades in Slavic countries and Russia.

According to Wikipedia, all Germanic languages are thought to be descended from a hypothetical Proto-Germanic, united by subjection to the sound shifts of Grimm's law and Verner's law. These probably took place during the Pre-Roman Iron Age of Northern Europe from c. 500 BC. Acording to Wikipedia, the area of origin of Proto-Germanic looks very Scandinavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-G...Bronze_Age.png

The Funnelbeaker culture is dated c. 4300-2800 BC, and the Corded Ware culture 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC. North European I1 seems to have arisen at the time of the Funnelbeaker and Corded Ware cultures. That time frame coincides much better with the Proto-Indoeuropean than Germanic languages. Again according to Wikipedia ”Scholars estimate that PIE may have been spoken as a single language (before divergence began) around 3500 BC”.

However, I know that Indoeuropeans have a monopoly over R1a and R1b and Germanics a monopoly over I1.

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## Melancon

> I understand your confusion. The thing is that the Neolithic I1 sample belongs to a branch that is now extinct, or was just I1*. Apart from a handful of samples from Germany, the Netherlands or Britain (of probable Anglo-Saxon origin), all modern I1 people are positive for DF29 (I1a) or Z131 (I1b). Actually 99% of I1 today belong to subclades under L22, Z58, Z63 or CTS6364. The TMRCA ancestors for these deeper subclades is inferior to 3000 to 2500 years, and therefore would have originated during the Nordic Bronze Age or the Germanic Iron Age. All these subclades have members in Scandinavia _and_ Germany. There isn't any major subclade that does not look Germanic at all. The I1 found in Belarus, Ukraine or Russia belongs to deep subclades also found in Scandinavia or Germany, not uniquely Slavic clades. For example, many Russian samples outside the Volga-Ural region belong to subclades such as L22>Y3549>Z74>L813+, L22>CTS2208>CTS5476+, Z58>Z59>Z60>L1302+ or Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140+, which all have very recent TMRCA (under 2000 years). The same is true for the Mordovian samples, who belong to deep subclades like DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140 or DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>CTS7362>CTS9352>Z73>CTS743. This is why I can confidently say that all of them are Germanic.


I don't want to jump too far in conclusions; but I wonder if Uralic is a European language group. (that developed originally in Europe; prior to Indo-European invasion.)

The Samoyeds and other Mongoloids who speak this language may have originally spoken Turkic; like the Yakuts. It is a wonder if Samoyeds were enslaved by Europeans and took these Uralic languages; after they were freed.

I can say that lots of Uralic speakers tend to carry Neolithic Y-DNA. Their Y-DNA is also very unusual. While Indo-Europeans are almost exclusively R1b and R1a; to a lesser extent, J2. Uralic speakers' Y-DNA is often heterogeneous; but mainly Neolithic in origin.

I overlooked the possibility of N1c existing in several races; but I am beginning to believe that it's possible some Europeans developed with N1c; without Mongoloid admixture. But I am guessing this happened prior to the Neolithic; when most races were probably still dark-skinned...

It would also explain why R1b migrated back into Africa and is prevalent in Cameroon. It would be an incredible discovery if Sub-Saharan blacks had Mongoloid and Caucasian ancestors; but I feel this theory is far too outlandish. It would make better sense that black men from Cameroon carrying R1b may have had a Negroid invasion from Central Asia. So it makes sense to me that Y-DNA R1b, N1c (as well as all Y-DNA that evolved descending from y-dna F) may have been originally negroid. They then mutated into several races later on; which explains why these haplogroups are seen in different races.

I am also theorizing that some subclades of Q1a may have been from Indo-Europeans; and might have migrated into Europe alongside with R1b and R1a.

Maciamo, what do you think of this theory?

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## Maciamo

> If you go to Terry Rob’s page (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/), you see that Z59 is as frequent in Russia as in Germany, also Z60 is as frequent in Russia as in Germany, Z63 is typical of Poland and Ukraine. Only Z140 is typically German. That means that only 3 out of 7 Mordovian I1 seem to have a clear Germanic origin.
> 
> As for the age estimations, the age of the Scandinavian cluster is 3400 BP and the age of the Finnish cluster is 3500 BP. The age of I1 in Germany is 4,400 BP and in Northern Europe 5,500 BP and nobody seems to have given an age estimate to I1 clades in Slavic countries and Russia.
> 
> According to Wikipedia, all Germanic languages are thought to be descended from a hypothetical Proto-Germanic, united by subjection to the sound shifts of Grimm's law and Verner's law. These probably took place during the Pre-Roman Iron Age of Northern Europe from c. 500 BC. Acording to Wikipedia, the area of origin of Proto-Germanic looks very Scandinavian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-G...Bronze_Age.png
> 
> The Funnelbeaker culture is dated c. 4300-2800 BC, and the Corded Ware culture 2900–2450/2350 cal. BC. North European I1 seems to have arisen at the time of the Funnelbeaker and Corded Ware cultures. That time frame coincides much better with the Proto-Indoeuropean than Germanic languages. Again according to Wikipedia ”Scholars estimate that PIE may have been spoken as a single language (before divergence began) around 3500 BC”.
> 
> However, I know that Indoeuropeans have a monopoly over R1a and R1b and Germanics a monopoly over I1.


It looks like you don't understand much about phylogeny and TMRCA. I mention subclades like L22>Y3549>Z74>L813+ and you tell me that L22 is 3400 ybp in Scandinavia and 3500 ybp in Finland. There are so many things wrong we that paragraph that I don't know where to start. 

1) First of all, BP (or YBP) is completely different from BC (or BCE). "Before Present (BP)" means before 1 January 1950, a date arbitrarily chosen by archeologists. BC(E) means before year 0. So there is nearly 2000 years of gap between the two. Terry's page gives dates for L22 in BC, not BP. So their TMRCA is 5400 years and 5500 years before present respectively.

2) That being said, Terry's age estimate haven't been updated since August 2011. Ken Nordtvedt has the most reliable and up to date estimates for I subclades. He gives an age of 3800 years to L22, but only 3000 years for the top-level L22 subclades separating the Finnish group from the Scandinavian ones. That's already a 2500 years gap with Terry's estimates. For all it's worth, five Mesolithic Swedish samples from c. 5500 BCE were tested and all belonged to I2a1 or I2c2, not I1 or I*. Even the Pitted Ware sample from 2800-2000 BCE was still I2a1. That means that I1 may be younger even than Nordtvedt's estimates.

3) When I say that both Russians and Scandinavians belong to subclades like L22>Y3549>Z74>L813+, you should only take the last mutation (L813) in consideration, as it is the most recent in their common ancestry (actually there may be more recent ones not tested or not yet discovered). In this case, L813 arose only 2000 years ago, when Scandinavia was already undeniably Germanic culturally. It means that L813+ cannot have arrived in Russian more than 2000 years ago, but in all likelihood many centuries less than that. Just look at one small region of Sweden and you'll find many different subclades of L22, and surely also many deep subclades under L813 and other branches. Y-chromosomal mutations keep arising every generation. Eventually, once all men get their full Y-DNA tested, it will be possible to determine the exact time two lineages split with about a century's accuracy. Very few people have taken the Big Y test (or equivalent) at present, so a lot of new, deeper subclades are still to be discovered and to be tested in every region. You will then see that the Russian L813+ actually matches deeper clades that separate from their Swedish cousins only about 1000 years ago, during the Viking Age. 


Just one rectification. I said that all I1 was Germanic. I should have said ultimately of German or Scandinavian origin, which today is the same as Germanic. There are always people who will argue about when exactly one can talk of Germanic culture in Scandinavia. Personally I consider that it isn't 500 BCE, but c. 1700 BCE, when R1b people, speakers of the Proto-Celto-Germanic branch of IE languages, had spread all around southern Scandinavia and no other major migration can to modify the Scandinavian gene pool.

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## Kristiina

How do you know that all Russians belong to L22? My impression is that north Russian I1 clades are not well studied at all. If you can give me a web page where I can see the distribution of different I1 clades, I would be very happy. I find it very interesting that even Nenets have 3% of I (Tambets 2004), and I would like to know if any of it is I1 and possibly related to Saami I1.

If we go back to Mordovians, however, I do not understand why you emphasize L22, if you state yourself about Mordovian I1 that "not a single one of them belong to the Scandinavian/Viking L22 branch".

I see that Nordtvedt gives an estimate of c. 3500 BP to Z60 and c. 3800 BP to Z59 (2013).

When yoy write that "even the Pitted Ware sample from 2800-2000 BCE was still I2a1. That means that I1 may be younger even than Nordtvedt's estimates", I do not understand the relevance of I2 as I1 did not evolve from I2. If ancient I1 has not been found in Germany or Scandinavia, it does not mean that it cannot be found elsewhere.

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## Melancon

> There is nothing paradoxical about it. *All* Germanic people have their roots in Scandinavia, but not all of them left Scandinavia. Imagine various ancient Germanic tribes as members of a large family. Those who moved out of the house aren't in the house anymore, but somewhere else. That's why I1 subclades have different geographic distributions today.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was something already known from historical sources, what would be the point of this thread ? Nobody knew about it, but that's what DNA is telling us.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you showing me distribution maps from a single isolated study, when I made much more reliable maps based on all studies published to date ? 
> ...


Yes, All *Germanic* people. But the people do not necessarily have to be *Indo-European Germanic*...they could be _pre-Germanic_. 

*Mordovians* having Y-DNA *I1*; despite being a bit far from Scandinavia; is intensely interesting. If it did not come from a recent contribution; I wonder if the pre-Mordvins may have originated in Scandinavia? Could *proto-Uralic* be the lost language group of Nordic peoples? Before Indo-European conquest? 

Obviously the Finns and Estonians migrated to where they are. But they may have been *Eastern Uralic* peoples. I am wondering if there were possibly *proto-Uralic* dialects that existed in Scandinavia before the *Indo-European Germanic language* was taken.

What is very interesting and fascinating about both *Vasconic languages* (*Basque and Aquitanian*) and *Uralic languages;* is that they tend to have grammatical qualities in both these languages groups that *the Indo-European language group (or most of its dialects)* lack. For example; both Vasconic and Uralic language groups seem to share *agglutinative grammar.* But unlike the Indo-European languages; it seems all Vasconic and Uralic dialects seem to lack *word genders* and *gender nouns.* (In example, in German you will have *Das Mädchen* (for "*the girl"* in English; *Der Mann* (for *"men"*), *Die Frau* (for "*the woman"*). Where as in languages like Basque, Hungarian and Finnish; all non-IE languages; it seems *word genders* are virtually non-existent.

Some dialects of Basque, can easily be mistaken for Finnish or Hungarian; to someone who is not familiar or perceptive. :)


*In other words, English and Armenian seem to be the only two Indo-European languages that lack word gender. In French you will have the Sun ("soleil") as masculine ("le soleil*") *and the moon will be feminine ("la lune"). It seems that most, if not all Uralic languages lack this kind of grammar. (*_forgive me if I am wrong_*) It also seems like Vasconic (Basque and Aquitanian) lack genders as well.*

----------


## Kristiina

Melancon, what you say is interesting. I think that those traits you mentioned (cases, no gender, postpositions) are usually taken as a basis for the so called Nostratic languages hypothesis. Nostratic languages seem to be original languages of Siberia and Eurasian central heartland. Gender might very well be a trait of the languages of West Asia. Among oldest IE-languages, notably, Hittite has no gender system which distinguishes masculine and feminine, and the masculine/feminine distinction is still a matter of dispute, since there are some, such Robert S.P. Beekes who doubt that the feminine gender originated in PIE.

----------


## gyms

An explanation was proposed by the Romanian historian Bogdan Petriceicu-Hasdeu, who connected the name of the river Moldova with Mulde, a river in Saxony, and Moldau, the German name of the river Vltava in the Czech Republic, and argues that all derive from the Gothic word for "dust" (Gothic: , Runic: ᛗᚢᛚᛞᚨ) - *Mulda*.[2] It is notable that this would not be the only river in Romania that got its name in connection to the word, as Prahova could be derived from the Slavic equivalent, *Prah*.

The Romanian linguist Iorgu Iordan proposed that the word be seen as a derivative of *Molid* (spruce), but the disappearance of the "i" would be hard to explain within the frame of Romanian phonetics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova

The name _Mordva_ is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word _mard_ meaning "man". The Mordvin word _mirde_ denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: _mort_ and perhaps even in Mari: _marij_.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins

----------


## bicicleur

> Could *proto-Uralic* be the lost language group of Nordic peoples? Before Indo-European conquest? 
> 
> Obviously the Finns and Estonians migrated to where they are. But they may have been *Eastern Uralic* peoples. I am wondering if there were possibly *proto-Uralic* dialects that existed in Scandinavia before the *Indo-European Germanic language* was taken.


*Language[edit]*Previously, the dominant view was that the spread of the Comb Ware people was correlated with the diffusion of the Uralic languages, and thus an early Uralic language must have been spoken throughout this culture. However, another more recent view is that the Comb Ware people may have spoken a Paleo-European (pre-Uralic) language, as some toponyms andhydronyms also indicate a non-Uralic, non-Indo-European language at work in some areas.[4] Even then, linguists and archaeologists both have also been skeptical of assigning languages based on the borders of cultural complexes, and it's possible that the Pit-Comb Ware Culture was made up of several languages, one of them being Proto-Uralic.[_citation needed_]

what do you think of this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%...b_Ware_culture

4000 BC is after the R1a1 samples found (5500-5000 BC) , but these early R1a1 porbably didn't speak IE yet
it is the arrival of pottery from Siberia
the origin of this type of pottery is China, 25000 year ago
the pottery arived in eastern Siberia, near the river Amur 13300 years ago
it looks like this pottery came along with N1c1 or N1c1a from eastern Siberia

----------


## Maciamo

> An explanation was proposed by the Romanian historian Bogdan Petriceicu-Hasdeu, who connected the name of the river Moldova with Mulde, a river in Saxony, and Moldau, the German name of the river Vltava in the Czech Republic, and argues that all derive from the Gothic word for "dust" (Gothic: ���������������� �������������, Runic: ᛗᚢᛚᛞᚨ) - *Mulda*.[2] It is notable that this would not be the only river in Romania that got its name in connection to the word, as Prahova could be derived from the Slavic equivalent, *Prah*.
> 
> The Romanian linguist Iorgu Iordan proposed that the word be seen as a derivative of *Molid* (spruce), but the disappearance of the "i" would be hard to explain within the frame of Romanian phonetics.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova
> 
> The name _Mordva_ is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word _mard_ meaning "man". The Mordvin word _mirde_ denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: _mort_ and perhaps even in Mari: _marij_.[13]
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins


Most of the time this kind of etymology is based on pure guesses. It's irrelevant to this thread anyway.

----------


## gyms

> Most of the time this kind of etymology is based on pure guesses. It's irrelevant to this thread anyway.


Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.

Not my etymology.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Maciamo!
> I usually appreciate your posts but this is pure nonense.Too much science fiction.You lack knowledge on important issues such as history and linguistics.


Shrouded in this overwhelming relativity, are we really capable to distinguish between what's"right" and "wrong"?!
We could give it a try,but of course this ain't math:

I guess it's _wrong_ when we practice a form of mental cannibalism,when we hope that someone will make a mistake.
In our mind ,the bigger the prey is,the more we will grow,without too much effort.

I think it's _right_ to try to _create_ alternative theories, no matter what!
If only one of them proves to be true,then this is already a big gain.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Regarding the etymology of Moldova

It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.

Balto-Slavicized variants:

Râu în Moldova
Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
Molodovo – Bucovina – Ucraina (localitate)
Moldova Veche/Nouă – Caraş‐Severin, Banat
Moldoveneşti, Cluj (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldoveni, Ialomița (dar şi Teleorman) (se referă la o populație şi nu e relevant)
Moldovița (Suceava şi Caraş‐Severin) (interesantă replica din Banat)
Moldava, Ústecký, Cehia (la granița Germaniei, spre Dresda)
Moldava, Teplice, Cehia (tot la granița Germaniei)
Moldava nad Bodvou, Košicky (county), Slovacia
Moldawin, Szczecin (county), Polonia
Moldavanka, reg. Krasnodar, Rusia (localitatea în apropierea coastei Mării Negre, la SE de Marea de Azov)
Moldavanka, reg. Orenburg, Rusia (pe Ural, la NNE de Marea Caspică, la marginea stepei Kîrkîză şi a statului Kazahstan)



Gothic variants:

Moldau – numele german al râului Vltava

Molde în Norvegia
Moldjord, Norvegia
Moldegard, Norvegia
Moldestad, Norvegia
Moldrup, provincie în Danemarca
Moldbjerg, Danemarca
Moldenit, Germania
Moldes, Spania
Moldones, Spania
Moldgreen, Marea Britanie

----------


## Maciamo

> Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.
> 
> Not my etymology.


What I meant is that sometimes you don't have to look for overcomplicated etymologies based on corrupted words from extinct languages to find a link between two ethnic groups, especially if the DNA shows similarities.

----------


## gyms

In the 13th century, Western Cumans became Catholic Christians, while Eastern assumed Islam. The Catholic "Diocese of the Cumans" included Romania and Moldova. This title was kept until 1523. The principality of Wallachia was established by Basarab I, son of the Cumanian warlord Tihomir of Wallachia at the beginning of the 14th century. The name Basarab is considered as being of Cuman origin, meaning "Father King".

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-...mily&id=I28387

http://www.academia.edu/10035068/THE...PAIGNS_IN_1091

----------


## Maciamo

I have analysed the autosomal data of Volga Republics to try to confirm what the possibility of Gothic genetic contribution to the region, as suggested by the Y-DNA. 

It turns out that the Mordvins are most similar to the Czechs in terms of admixture percentages. The Mordvins just have a bit more ANE and East Asian, as expected from their 10% of Uralic N1c1. Note that the Czechs have the highest percentage of Germanic ancestry of any Slavic population (11% I1, 6% R1b-U106, 4% I2a2). The Goths who reached the Black Sea in the 4th century were almost certainly a blend of Germanic and Proto-Slavic people from modern day Poland and western Ukraine.

The Slovaks are also close, but have less Gedrosian admixture than either the Czechs or the Mordvins. This correspond with the fact that Slovaks also have less R1b (as Gedrosian admixture in Europe correlates with R1b).

The Poles have more East European and less West Asian than the Mordvins or Czechs. 

The Romanians have less Northwest European and more Mediterranean, West Asian, Southwest Asian and Caucasian than the Mordvins. The relatively high percentages of E1b1b, G2a and J2 in the Mordvin population is not well reflected by Near Eastern or Mediterranean autosomal admixtures. In other words, these haplogroups may simply have come from the Iron Age population of Poland and western Ukraine, and not from the Goths mixing with Romanian or Moldovan populations.


The Chuvash are very similar to the Mordvins autosomally, but with a bit more East European and a bit less Northwest European. They also have more East Asian (because of their 28% of N1c) and less Mediterranean. 

No autosomal data is available for the Tatars, Udmurts, Komi, Mari or Bashkirs.

----------


## Horse168

I agree that Z140 has a heavy North Sea Germanic bias but to say its typically "german" really seems to underplay just how widespread this SNP is amongst Dutch , Frisians, Danes and Scanians over the past 2000 plus years . Given that Z140+ clades would certainly have existed in the East Norse speaking areas of Southern Sweden during the Viking age I think you can't rule out that some of these individuals didn't take their Y dna to Russia and beyond. Also I think soon we will see with wider snp testing that Denmark is and has long been chock full of Z140+ clades and that Danish Vikings & Settlers implanted much Z140 into N & E England , Sth Wales and E Scotland post 800 a.d as well as leaving traces of it all along the Atlantic coast from France down to Portugal and Spain due to their seafaring abilities.

----------


## Shtrun

> *Mordovians*
> 
> - *Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and 1.7% of R1a-M458
> 
> - Slavic : 32% of R1a-CTS1211 and 1.7% of R1a-Z282
> 
> - Balkanic : 10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*.
> 
> - Uralic : 10% of N1c1
> ...


Firstly such people as Mordvinians does not exist. There Moksha and Erzya. 
Secondly you have bad data, that data separately for Moksha and Erzyan who provided the author publication (Trofimova):

----------


## Shtrun

You have a strange limit on the links, I can not insert a table.

----------


## Shtrun

> I checked the I1 subclades in the FTDNA projects for Mordovia and Tatarstan, and found the following subclades (N.B. no I1 subclade tested for Chuvashia).
> 
> - Mordovians: Z59, Z60, Z63 (2x), Z140 (2x), CTS743


This incorrect data in the project who indicated which group. I am the administrator of the Erzya-Moksha DNA project (Mordovia project does not exist in principle).

*Erzya:*
I1-M253+ - 1 member (subclade undefined)
I1-Z63+ - 2 member
*Moksha:
*not to members haplogroup I1
*Russian (Ethnogroup Ryazan Meshchera):
*I1-Z140+ - 4 member (This is me and my family. Most likely it is the ancestor of a German prisoner.)
*Russian:* 
I1-L1248+ - 1 member
I1-L1302+ - 1 member

----------


## Shtrun

> The same is true for the Mordovian samples, who belong to deep subclades like DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>Z140 or DF29>Z58>Z59>Z60>CTS7362>CTS9352>Z73>CTS743.


Another mistake. ))

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## Shtrun

> Maciamo:This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.
> 
> Not my etymology.


Easier to use self-designation:


Moksha and Erzya, there will be no confusion with the Moldovans.

----------


## gyms

The name _Mordva_ is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word _mard_ meaning "man". The Mordvin word _mirde_ denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: _mort_ and perhaps even in Mari: _marij_.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Moldova

According to a legend recorded by Moldavian prince Dimitrie Cantemir in the 17th century, the first Moldavian ruler, Dragoş, named the country he founded after one of his hounds, _Molda_, who died during the hunt of an aurochs in the lands of the future principality.[1]

----------


## Shtrun

Let's start with the fact that the words "Mordva/Mordvinians" in the language of Moksha and Erzya places without. ))

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## Shtrun

In one of the earliest studies (Malaspina et al.) of the haplogroups was a fun bug there were listed:
Moldovans-Moksha and Moldovans-Erzya. ))

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## Shtrun

I edited the above message with the results for Moksha and Erzya in Trofimova 2015. 
Duplicate table:

----------


## Shtrun

Data from other publications

Tambets et al.(2004) 
*Moksha* (Staroshaygovsky District of Mordovia) n=83

R1a - 26,5%
N3 (TAT) - 16,9%
R1b - 13,3%
I1 - 12%
I2b - 4,8%
N2 (P43) - 2,4%
I2 - 2,4%
K*(M9) - 1,2%
NO (M214) - 0%
N*(M231) - 0%
N1 (M128) - 0%
O (M175) - 0%
J2 - nd
E3b - 0%

Malaspina et al. (2003) n=46

*Erzya* R1a1 - 45,7%
*Moksha* R1a1 - 21,7%

Malaspina et al. (2000) n=62

*Moksha+Erzya* R1a - 39% 

Lahermo et al. (1999) 

*Erzya* n=52

N1с (Tat-С) - 6/52 (12%)
DE (Yap) - 0/52 (0%)

*Moksha* n=73
N1c (Tat-С) - 6/73 (8%)
DE (Yap) - 0/73 (0%)

Bermisheva et al. (2001) *Erzya* n=50
DE (YAP+) = 4% (2/50)
N (LLY22) = 8% (4/50)
Other = 88% (44/50)

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/erzya-moksha-dna-project/about/goals

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## Shtrun

All publications and project data show that the proportion of Erzya R1a is significantly higher than that of Moksha:


There are differences in the R1b. In Erzya mainly Eastern European Z2105+, then Moksha we do not see.


And the biggest difference is in the presence of a significant percentage at Moksha Mediterranean haplogroup E-M78 and J2b.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Regarding the etymology of Moldova
> 
> It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
> the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.
> 
> Balto-Slavicized variants:
> 
> Râu în Moldova
> Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
> ...


Would not be so hard to translate from Romanian to English ,so people here knows what you are posting.
I will translate later,if you do not,now I am too lazy to do this.
As for the name of the river,this is how the female dog of first King of Moldavia,Dragos Voda was called,Molda.
http://adevarul.ro/locale/iasi/legen...b7e/index.html
(the article is in Romanian).
What is written there,according to the legend from Moldavia,Dragos Voda,first ruler of Moldavia,was hunting.
He shoot with the arrow a large kind of bison,that was living those times in Moldova.
The bison went to the waters of the river Moldova and the hunting female dog of the king,after the bison,in the waters of the river.
The dog has drown and to remember about the dog,the King named that water Moldova,from Molda.
Now,I do not know in what countries Molda is used to name female beings,but I doubt is coming from the Germanic mold.

----------


## Tomenable

> Mordovians
> 
> - Germanic : 3.4% of I1, 3.4% of R1b-U106 (aka M405 or S21), 1.7% I2-M223 and *1.7% of R1a-M458*
> 
> Chuvash
> 
> - Germanic : 7% of I1, and *4.7% of R1a-M458*
> 
> Tatars
> ...


Since when is R1a-M458 "Germanic"? It is most common among West Slavic and East Slavic peoples.

Percent of R1a-M458 by population:

Czechs - 30,2%
Poles - 26,6%
Poles from Wroclaw - 23,7%
Ukrainians from Cherkassy - 22,8%
Belarusians from Brest-Litovsk - 22,7%
Slovaks - 21,4%
Croats from interior - 19,5%
Ukrainians from Lviv - 18,2%
Ukrainians from Ivano-Frankivsk - 17,9%
Belarusians - 15,4% or 12,7%
Ukrainians from Donetsk - 15,1%
Russians from Oryol - 14,7%
Russians from Pskov - 12,5%
Russians from Kostroma - 11,3%
Russians from Belgorod - 11,2%
Russians - 9,2%
Ukrainians from Khmilnyk - 7,8%
Bulgarians - 7,4%
Ukrainians from Akkerman - 5,4%

Germanic populations don't have it, except for these with a lot of Slavic ancestry: Germans and Austrians.

----------


## Tomenable

> If ancient I1 has not been found in Germany or Scandinavia, it does not mean that it cannot be found elsewhere.


And it was - we have ca. 7500 years old I1 from Hungary from Neolithic LBKT culture.

----------


## MOESAN

> Regarding the etymology of Moldova
> 
> It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
> the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.
> 
> Balto-Slavicized variants:
> 
> Râu în Moldova
> Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
> ...


_
interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte_

----------


## MOESAN

I have not a precise subclade surveys at hand, Maciamo has - so I 'll only repeat what I remember from readings:
what I noticed (and wrote about germanics, some years ago) is that in Norway the Y-I1 regional distriibution seems showing a late enough introduction in the country, from South so Denmark?), later for the most than Y-R1a itself - for Y-R1b it's harder to decide because some R1bs could have reached Southwestern Norway by Sea, not across South Sweden - very rough, all that!
Russian scholars seem thinking Y-I1a is older in North Russia than believed and that it has no link with proto- or Historic Germanics moves - no links too concerning some ligneages of Finland Y-I1
concerning the language which was apparently spoken in the today finnic lands, I don't believe there is any link with a proto-uralic - the only links made by someone (forgotten the name) are with a supposed proto-basque language (among finnic speaking Saami, the same man spoke of a kind of I-E primitive language on the way to satem or in a stage without centumization... both before introduction of Uralic - very vague but it can exclude some hypothesis evocated here -

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## MOESAN

> Regarding the etymology of Moldova
> 
> It is of Slavicized Gothic origin;
> the suffix"-va" is Slavic,while "Mold-o",similar to Molde, is Gothic.
> 
> Balto-Slavicized variants:
> 
> Râu în Moldova
> Moldova, Ida‐Virumaa (county), Estonia (localitate pe țărmul Balticii)
> ...


_
interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte_

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## Diurpaneus

> _
> interesting, even if I think the slavic suffix could be -OV-A rather than -VA - a slavist could say more - buna noapte_



My apologies for responding so late,Moesan!

Yes,"-ava/-ova",a well-known Slavic suffix,is the most reliable option in this case.
The alternative form,"-va",was used not only as suffix,but also as a second compound.
For instance, Max Vasmer belived that "-va" means "river,water",he proposed analogies such as the Latvian river Muldupe(upe=river),Russian river Moldvaz(voz=river branch).

Without any doubt,there are certain barriers for me,as a hobbyist,for I randomly gather the information;not to mention, assembling this big puzzle called "linguistics", is not an easy task. 

A tout a l'heure!

----------


## arvistro

According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used 
1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land), 
2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).

----------


## mihaitzateo

What you do not know ,Maciamo,is that Dacians were disliking a lot plains and only loving places with mountains.
So I do not think that these people are descendants of Goths that left Carpathians from Romania and went to Russia.
You should also know that in the people inhabiting mountains from Romania,J1 is absent,J2 is low,like maximum 5%.
Also,I2-din is very high in people from Carpathians.So if they are from Carpathians,where is there I2 in significant percentage?
There is not possible that they are from Carpathians with 15% J2 and under 5% I2-din.
So they have 2-3 times the percentage of E-M78 compared to I2-din.
Since they have so much E-M78,J2 and only after I2,they could have been originated in Albania,not in Romania.
EDIT:
I do not think they moved from there willingly since Albanians are also loving mountainous areas,I think Tatars took them as slaves.

----------


## Alpakut

Another "IE" key position held by non-Indoeuropean peoples. It is a typical "Indoeuropeans were assimilated by clever non-IE's"-job. Even though very interesting.

----------


## Ike

I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian 
http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html


Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:

Alb. _enё_ “a vessel” – Mok. _en’a_ “a scoop”;
Alb. _kapёrdij_ “to swallow” – Mok._ kapordams_ “to swallow”, Erz. _koporks_ “to swallow”;
Alb. _kofšё_ “thigh” – Erz. _kačo_ “thigh”, Mok._ kače_ "abkle";
Alb. _keqe_ “evil” – Mok., Erz. _k’až_ “evil”;
Alb. _bizele_ “peas” – Mok., Erz._ pizёl_ “berries of mountain ash”;
Alb. _rroj_ "to live" – Mok., Erz. _er’ams_ "to live".
Some Albanian-Mordvinic correspondences have matches in other neighbouring languages:
Alb. _tani_ “today” – Mok. _t’ani_ “now” (Mari _tenij_ “today”, Est _täna_ “today”);
Alb. _dobёt_ “quiet” – Mok. _topafks_ “satiety” , Erz _topafty_ “sated” (Mari _typ_ “quiet”);
Alb. _turi_ “muzzle” – Mok, Erz _trva_ “a lip” (Mari _t’arvö_ “a lip”);
Alb. _bretkosё_ “frog” – Mok. _vatraksh_ “frog” (Greek _βατραχοσ_ “frog”, Rom _broasca_"frog" as possible spoiled Thracian substratum) etc.
Alb. _piče_ “pine-tree” – Mok, Erz _piči_ “pine-tree” (the words of this root are present in other Finno-Ugric and Indo-European languages but they mainly “galipot”, for example, Lat _picis,_ Gr _πισσα_, but Lat _picea_ “pine-tree” remains something far;
Alb _zhavor_ “gravel” – Mok_ šuvar_ “sand” (this word in several different forms was spread in the Baltic and Slavic languages).





Modrovia seems to be very close to that upper right green area on J2b map, so this is very interesting. Does anyone know more precise DNA picture of Mordovians?

----------


## arvistro

Btw, those folk look very close to Yamna autosomally, maybe the closest modern folk.

----------


## MOESAN

> I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian 
> http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html
> 
> 
> Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:
> 
> 
> Alb. _enё_ “a vessel” – Mok. _en’a_ “a scoop”;
> Alb. _kapёrdij_ “to swallow” – Mok._ kapordams_ “to swallow”, Erz. _koporks_ “to swallow”;
> ...



_as everytime when somebody wants to proove something and mâkes a list of "cognates", someones are confusing or interestong and others, phonetically, seems without any links between them - and someones are common loanwords from a "bigger" different language - my thought - maybe I like faith?
_

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## MOESAN

> According to Endzelīns, -ava, -uva in Baltic languages are used 
> 1)to denote place. Place characteristics + -ava. Kelmava (place of kelms, stomps of trees), Dumbrava (swampy land), 
> 2) for living beings of some characteristics. Guļava - sleepy (from guļ+ava), līgava (bride, līgt+ava), jaunava (virgin, jaun+ava).


_
Thanks for post (I'm late, not enough time tor ead every thread) - the question is: is a suffix found in placenames only a specific suffix restricted to placenames, or a more general suffix, ALSO used in placenames? Just an aside question in this thread, it's true!
_

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## MOESAN

@ Shtrun:
interesting
concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group

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## MOESAN

I don't know if that can help, but I red soemthing about 3 slavic "ethnies" of Ruthenia, it's to say a corner region in North Carpathians, for the most in far Western Ukraina, but spanning a bit over Southeastern Poland, Eastern Slovakia and Northwestern Romania: Hutsuls/gutsuls, Lemko's and Boyko's; about mt DNA only - drift seems evident according to them - Hutsuls are closer to Croats than to Ukrainians, and very far from Boyko's their neighbours! The most "of their own" are the Bojko's, far from every surrounding populations,

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## MOESAN

Boyko's mt DNA is close to LBK/AVK's one (Alföld successors, close to Szakàlhàt-Esztàr-Bükk) but would be EVEN CLOSER TO UDMURT mtDNA; I don't know if this can help in this thread, because the weight is put on "MORDVINS"; it seems showing at least a link between North Carpathians slopes and Steppes female ligneages since Neolithic if not earlier; the Hutsuls are closer to mainland Croats and Lemko's, spite not so close, seem having some ties with Krk island in N-W Croatia (relatively high levels of mt I + mt M* (far Asia introgression?); the question is: how to link these ressemblances and differences to historic moves of people when we see the Steppes were a boulevard for tribes of any kind? And the drifts in mountainous regions (like to Caucasus) come to tangle things!
to answer Maciamo, a Carpathians Goths desplacing of populations could have taken place, but the proves are tiny; Y-I1 even if globally typical for Germanics was preset in far North-East before historic Goths, I think, and the "southern" ligneages (J,E,G) were there maybe before, since Tripolye times for the most of them?
Sorry for a very inconclusive post!

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## Shtrun

> @ Shtrun:
> interesting
> concerning Mordvins, we could suppose the cmomon "hat" name was given these 2 distinct groups for they were now living in a same region were a so called Mordvin population was living before? or it is an unprecise EXONYM? just a suggestion by an ignorant on the matter
> interesting to see the Y-haplos very different distribtions which shows a different sgenetic story for the 2 groups in cause (the distributionS of J, E and R1b are hardly explicable by the only drift upon small population, at first thinking) - pity the samples are not bigger in each group


@MOESAN:
Mordva it certainly EXONYM. Such people do not have. Moksha and Erzya not understand each other and to communicate using the Russian language. In the Moksha and Ersa languages ​​there is no word "Mordva." The area of ​​residence does not intersect, although living nearby.


Moksha and Erzya are descendants of Ryazan-Oka Finn culture. This culture was destroyed some nomads (the archaeologists have not yet found out what kind of nomads). Some people went into the forest and become Meschera which later assimilated by the Slavs (krivichi). Another part went to the river Tesha, there emerged Erzya. And the third went to the flow of the river Sura, where there moksha. Erzya not mix. Moksha were affected by some steppe populations. As a result, Moksha gained a darker pigmentation, national costume has changed, changed the language (eg phonetics), and changed the composition of haplogroups.

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## MOESAN

@ Shtrun
Thanks

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## Garrick

> I've a found guy on the internet claiming cognates between Albanian and Mordovian 
> http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Alterling/Alban.html
> 
> 
> Here are some examples of separate Albanian-Mordvinic matches:
> 
> Alb. _enё_ “a vessel” – Mok. _en’a_ “a scoop”;
> Alb. _kapёrdij_ “to swallow” – Mok._ kapordams_ “to swallow”, Erz. _koporks_ “to swallow”;
> Alb. _kofšё_ “thigh” – Erz. _kačo_ “thigh”, Mok._ kače_ "abkle";
> ...


It is interesting findings.

Because Mordvins have 10.2% J2b according:
https://www.facebook.com/cultural.an...73532489371574

Unfortunately, disertation of Trofimova is not avaliable.

I found one her paper and several authors from 2015 but they gave only haplogroup J, Mordvins: 16.9%.

It is possible that data 10.2% J2b for Mordvins is accurate, if it is right Mordvins have the most percent J2b haplogroup in that region.

You're probably right, some link between Mordvins and Albanians exists, maybe these two population lived together somewhere in Ukraine, Romania, Carpatian region, etc., maybe Maciamo is right.

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## Shtrun

> It is interesting findings.
> 
> Because Mordvins have 10.2% J2b according:
> https://www.facebook.com/cultural.an...73532489371574
> 
> Unfortunately, disertation of Trofimova is not avaliable.
> 
> I found one her paper and several authors from 2015 but they gave only haplogroup J, Mordvins: 16.9%.
> 
> ...





Mordva an artificial term is Moksha and Erzya, which differ genetically. Data from this work I showed in this topic. Frequencies of Moksha and Erzya I gave myself Trofimova:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post455146

With Albanians Us questionable, there is another subclade.

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## MOESAN

the problem with supposed "cognates" is when you try to make a list - with some precise goal - you put in it every kind of words with close significations and POSSIBLE linked sounds, often without checking the homogeneity of mutational paths between the concerned languages. When we know the big number of forms consonnants can take by time and loans we can with an agenda make full lists of "cognates". And sometimes "cognates" - often when they are phonetically too close, they are loanwords in the two compared languages from a third one. Historical phonetics is a very difficult occupation...
That said, the female ligneages in Eastern Europe and Western Russian Steppes could be linked to an ancient stratum too quickly qualified "Near-Eastern Neolithic"; some of these ligneages could be local female mediated penetrated at Neolithic by Anatolian males AND females (other female lignages of true Near-Eastern or Anatolian origin) through Balkans before taking part in the famous Cucuteni-Tripolye culture; I think Tripolye people played a big role in the surrounding regions of Steppes, before Yamnaya and after it (even upon one of the Catacomb group). The respective links between the 2 "Mordvin" groups and Carpathians-East-Balkans could recall us these influences which left some traces before other modifications? the supposed eastern position of Albanians ancestors in S-E Europe could explain some links between them and these "Mordvins", at some level? All speculation it's true.

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## A. Papadimitriou

My opinion on this (I use the stats of Maciamo)

_The migration might have worked this way. From South to North. So these Turkic speaking groups have some Greek ancestry. Even if it isn't Greek it's Balkan but I stand by what I say for the following reasons._

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

Mordovians

10.2% of E-M78, 10.2% of J2b, 5.1% of J2a, 3.4% of G2a3b1, and 1.7% of J*, 3.4% of I1, 1.7% I2-M223


Chuvash 

14% of E-M78, 9.3% of J2a, 4.7% of J2b,4.7% of I2a1b, and 2.3% of J1, 7% of I1


Tatars

9.5% of I1, 1% I2-M223, 8% of G2a3, 7.9% of J2a, 4% of J2b, 3% of E-M78, 2% of I2a1b and 1% of J1.

^ All those haplogroups are found to some extent in Balkans, even those who peak in Scandinavia like I1. The presence of E-M78, especially, proves the origin of many of them from the Balkans (R1a and N haplogroups were already there).

-- _vatraksh_
Also this word, at least, is practicallly *the same* with the modern Greek one βάτραχος /vatrakhos/. Ancient Greek reconstructed pronunciation is 'batrakhos' though, so someone can support that it is a more recent loan. How does that work though?

I wrote in another forum that the following translation from the Wikipedia article has an obvious problem




> Herodotus describes the Bhudini people, east of the Ister (Danube) River, thusly: [4.108] The Bhudini are a large and powerful nation: they all have deep blue eyes), and bright red hair. There is a town in their country called Gelonus which is made out of wood. Each side of its high outer wall is thirty stades long, made entirely of wood, and wood has been used for all its houses and shrines too. They have sanctuaries there which are dedicated to the Greek gods and equipped in the Greek manner with statues, altars and buildings of wood; and every third year they celebrate a festival of Dionysus and become possessed by the god. The Bhudini, however, differ from the Gelonians in both language and lifestyle. The Bhudinians, who are nomadic, are the indigenous inhabitants of the country, and they are the only race there to eat _lice_, whereas the Geolonians are farmers, grain-eaters and gardeners; moreover, the two sets of people are altogether dissimilar in appearance and colouring.... The land is entirely covered with forests of every conceivable species of tree. In the largest forest there is a large, wide lake, surrounded by a reedy marsh. They capture otters and beavers in this lake, and also a square-faced creature whose skin they sew as a trimming on to their jackets, and whose testicles are good for healing diseases of the womb.[



They didn't eat lice. They ate pine nuts probably in my opinion because the word 'φθειρ' also meant 'pine cone' according to the best Ancient Greek dictionary. Κουκουνάρι = pine cone.

φθείρ, ὁ, γεν._φθειρός· δοτ. πληθ. φθειρσί· 1. ψείρα, Λατ. pediculus, σε Ηρόδ., Αριστοφ. 2.σκουλήκι στα λαχανικά, σε Λουκ. 3. κουκουνάρι κωνοφόρου δέντρου.

So we have, the red-haired/blue eyed Budini , who were probably Turkic (or Uralic) Hunter-Gatherers, while the Hellenes Gelonians were farmers and with darker pigmentation._

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## epoch

Jordanes claimed a number of people fell under great Gothic kings Ermanarics rule: 




> Among the tribes he [Ermanarich] conquered were the Golthescytha, Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinabroncae, Merens, Mordens, Imniscaris, Rogas, Tadzans, Athaul, Navego, Bubegenae and Coldae


The Mordens are usually considered the Mordvins. The Meren a people called Merya or Mari.

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## gidai

> (...) The combination of Germanic (I1, I2a2a, R1b-U106), Slavic (R1aCTS1211, R1a-Z282 and R1a-M458) and Balkanic (E-M78, G2a3, I2a1b, J1, J2a, J2b) lineages suggests that the Mordovians, Chuvash and Tatars could be descended from a branch of the 4th-century Goths from the Chernyakhov culture in Romania, Moldova and western Ukraine. This is further corroborated by the very strong similarity in names between Moldova and Mordova. Mordovians could therefore be Uralicized Moldovans.
> 
> The Near Eastern haplogroups do look as if they had come straight from the Balkans and Carpathians because:
> 
> 
> The dominant haplogroup is E-M78 (including E-V13 confirmed from FTDNA projects), not the Middle Eastern E-M34, which is completely absent.About half of haplogroup J2 is the Balkanic J2b. The roughly 50-50 proportion between J2a and J2b is only found in Southeast Europe.Most of the G2a is the (Indo-)European G2a3b1, not Middle Eastern subclades.There is some I2a1b too, which could either be Slavic or Balkanic. J1 is the rarest haplogroup, contrarily to the Middle East where it is the second most common after J2a. 
> 
> Trofimova et al. 2015 only tests about 50 samples from each ethnicity, which is not very representative in terms of frequencies, but gives a very good idea of what haplogroups are present in each group. 
> 
> ...


This is verry interesting and also can explain resemblance between Moldova and Mordovia.

All my known 160-200+ years ancestors lived in the same small area in southern Romania. 
I received a recent DNA result and I was wondering why besides Y - G2a2b2a, I have in the result 2% of Mordovia (the only percentage of NE Europe). But also, I think this can explain NW-Euro percents... Germany+France+Scandinavia 10% + England others 8.7% in addition to 2/3 Balkan.

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## roberto1960

I am r-z43 is gotico origin?

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## gyms

> This is verry interesting and also can explain resemblance between Moldova and Mordovia.
> 
> All my known 160-200+ years ancestors lived in the same small area in southern Romania. 
> I received a recent DNA result and I was wondering why besides Y - G2a2b2a, I have in the result 2% of Mordovia (the only percentage of NE Europe). But also, I think this can explain NW-Euro percents... Germany+France+Scandinavia 10% + England others 8.7% in addition to 2/3 Balkan.


The name _Mordva_ is thought to originate from an Iranian (Scythian) word _mard_ meaning "man". The Mordvin word _mirde_ denoting a husband or spouse is traced to the same origin. This word is also probably related to the final syllable of "Udmurt", and also in Komi: mort and perhaps even in Mari: marij.[13] 
'Erzya' is thought to derive from the Persian: arshan‎ – man. The first written mention of _Erzya_ is considered to be in a letter dated to 968 AD by Joseph the Khazar khaqan in the form of _arisa_, and sometimes thought to be in the works of Strabo and Ptolemy called as _Aorsy_ and _Arsiity_ respectively. Estakhri from the 10th century has recorded among the three groups of the Rus people the _al-arsanija_ whose king lived in the town of _Arsa_. The people have sometimes identified by scholars as Erzya, sometimes as the _aru_ people and also as Udmurts. It has been suggested by historians that the town _Arsa_ may refer to either the modern Ryazan or Arsk[10] In the 14th century the name Erzya is considered to be mentioned in the form of _ardzhani_ by Rashid-al-Din Hamadani,[14] and as _rzjan_ by Jusuf, the Nogaj khan[15] In Russian sources the ethnonym Erza first appears in the 18th century.[16] 
'Moksha' is thought to derive from the name of the Moksha River (an Iranian hydronym in origin, cognate to Sanskrit: moksha "releasing, causing to flow").[17] The earliest written mention of Moksha in the form of Moxel is considered to be in the works of a 13th-century Flemish traveler William of Rubruck and in the Persian chronicle Rashid-al-Din who reported the Golden Horde being in war with the Moksha and the Ardzhans (Erzia). In Russian sources 'Moksha' appears from the 17th century.[18] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordvins


The name "Moldova" derives from the Moldova River; the valley of this river served as a political centre at the time of the foundation of the Principality of Moldavia in 1359.[20] The origin of the name of the river remains unclear. According to a legend recounted by Moldavian chroniclers Dimitrie Cantemir and Grigore Ureche, Prince Dragoș named the river after hunting an aurochs: following the chase, the prince's exhausted hound _Molda_ drowned in the river. The dog's name, given to the river, extended to the Principality.[21] 
For a short time in the 1990s, at the founding of the Commonwealth of Independent States, the name of the current Republic of Moldova was also spelled "Moldavia".[22] After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the country began to use the Romanian name, _Moldova_. Officially, the name _Republic of Moldova_ is designated by the United Nations. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova


Both the Czech name _Vltava_ and the German name _Moldau_ are believed to originate from the old Germanic words _*wilt ahwa_ ("wild water"; compare Latin _aqua_).[6] In _Annales Fuldenses_ (872 AD) it is called _Fuldaha_; from 1113 AD it is attested as _Wultha_. In _Chronica Boemorum_ (1125 AD) it is attested for the first time in its Bohemian form as _Wlitaua_.[3] 
On the other side there is a river _Ltava_ in Ukraine with no traces of Germanic origins. The name of a settlement on this river was mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle in 1174, traditionally connected to the name of the city of Poltava, Ukraine. There are many theories describing etymology of _Ltava_.[7] 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vltava

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