# Europe Forum > Travelling & Living in Europe >  Advice for the right country for me.

## johnatanasoff

I am looking to move out from Portugal and find another country to live indefinitely. 
I would like you to advise me the top 3 countries offering me what i look for.


Key important points for me to consider relocating:

- Country with a "good, stable financial situation" where unemployment rate isn't high.

- Where foreigners are tolerated and people are treated equally.

- With warm weather on summer so you can swim in the sea. With mountains, where skiing is possible in winter. 


Key important points i don't want:

- Eastern European countries with a communistic or soviet union background. These are countries, I would not feel safe settling down.



I have been thinking France. But i am open for your advice.

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## Boreas

I am skipping your key point 2. The tolerans rapidly goes down. 

But here is my list;

France, Catalania, North Italy.

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## LeBrok

Canada complies with all except, warm sea to swim. Australia lacks skiing. US will satisfy all your requirements.

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## johnatanasoff

> I am skipping your key point 2. The tolerans rapidly goes down. 
> 
> But here is my list;
> 
> France, Catalania, North Italy.



I love spain, france and italy. Heck i love portugal! But portugal does not have a pleasant present, neither a good future.
Spain has a terrible economic and employment situation. Therefore a no go! I haven't declined italy.

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## johnatanasoff

> Canada complies with all except, warm sea to swim. Australia lacks skiing. US will satisfy all your requirements.



US is definetely awesome when it comes to nature. But no countries outside EU. I would need a visa or green card for that. I had no idea you could ski in california too? Aparently there are resorts. 
Anyway US is so big that if you live in california and you want to ski decent slopes you need to go arizona, nevada, colorado. A few hours flying. Equivalent to flying within european union.

The idea is to do these things inside the country and save money on flights and the extra shipping costs for the materials etc. Plus for the sake of me being close to the skiing slopes and save time even if i have to fly :)

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## Angela

You're definitely correct about the green card if you come to the U.S.

However, just for accuracy, you can live right outside New York (a forty minute to one hour train ride to fabulous cultural and sports events) and be a 45minute car ride from beautiful beaches and boating, an hour to Pine Barrens for hiking, a three hour drive to so-so skiing in New Jersey and the Catskills (or beautiful lakes for fishing and boating), and a four hour drive from great skiing in Vermont. Southern Connecticut also is very close to great beaches, and even closer to great skiing. The trip into the city is only about fifteen minutes longer.

You could find similar kinds of situations in California, at least if you're not way down in southern California. 

Now I sound like a travel agent! :)

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## johnatanasoff

> You're definitely correct about the green card if you come to the U.S.
> 
> However, just for accuracy, you can live right outside New York (a forty minute to one hour train ride to fabulous cultural and sports events) and be a 45minute car ride from beautiful beaches and boating, an hour to Pine Barrens for hiking, a three hour drive to so-so skiing in New Jersey and the Catskills (or beautiful lakes for fishing and boating), and a four hour drive from great skiing in Vermont. Southern Connecticut also is very close to great beaches, and even closer to great skiing. The trip into the city is only about fifteen minutes longer.
> 
> You could find similar kinds of situations in California, at least if you're not way down in southern California. 
> 
> Now I sound like a travel agent! :)


:) Thanks. I won't get a green card so any country outside EU does not count!

I would like surfing to be a 1h drive. Skiing can be more. This are added benefits of nature and things i love doing.
The main thing is to find a country with good weather and good economic situation to live indefinitely.

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## pacificbreeze

Maybe Northern Italy, or Southern France, if you want EU... if not, go to Australia :))))

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## amenhotep

tell what kind of jobs do you want to consider and i will think

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## Minty

> I am looking to move out from Portugal and find another country to live indefinitely. 
> I would like you to advise me the top 3 countries offering me what i look for.
> 
> 
> Key important points for me to consider relocating:
> 
> - Country with a "good, stable financial situation" where unemployment rate isn't high.
> 
> - Where foreigners are tolerated and people are treated equally.
> ...


Unemployment in France was 10% in Jan 2017. It was 11.7 in Italy, and 10.5 in Portugal. Those are the latest figures I can find. 

I don't understand your logic, for choosing France as your next destination. I don't think there is a huge difference in unemployment rate between France or Italy in comparison to Portugal. 

France has a lot of immigrants, not all French like their immigrants. There is a shade of grey. I have met very nice Caucasian people and very mean ones. We can only say the so called equality is a myth. 

In Italy the north is wealthy and the south is poor, the north does not want to help the south. It is not really a country for immigrants unlike Canada, Australia etc. However, there is discrimination in Australia too. Well, Australia these days is very multicultural, but most of the immigrants are from Asia unlike in Europe where most of the immigrants are from Africa and the Middle East.

Australia is very popular for Chinese immigrants and Indian immigrants. Australia is a world leader in "severely unaffordable" housing, a study of global housing markets has found, with Sydney the second most unaffordable major housing market in the world, coming behind only Hong Kong.

If you want to migrate to Australia you better have a lot of money, otherwise it will be very hard. I don't think you are interested to move out of EU, even though a lot of people in this thread have suggested countries outside of EU.

In France, the Le Pen party is getting quite popular. She does like want legal or illegal immigrants. If she wins, she has pledged to pull France out of NATO and the E.U., to abolish the euro and reintroduce the franc, among other radical and potentially destabilizing ideas. She, too, is buddies with Russian President Vladimir Putin (naturally). A Le Pen victory in May could well precipitate the collapse of the European project.

As long as EU still exists, even if it ends, as an European you can easily take a holiday to nearby EU countries for ski vacations. Most southern part of Europe has seas you can swim in. However, the countries who have better economy are mostly up north.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...7_(%25)_F2.png

There is Malta 4.1 percent, Germany and Nordic countries are lower but those countries are cold

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## Coriolan

Have you considered to Russia? Apart from your last point it is ideal. The economy is very stable with a growth at 1.3%, so not too high and not too low. Unemployment is at a very reasonable 5%. In the south, for example in Sochi, the weather is very hot in summer and you can swim in the Black Sea, but it snows in winter and you can also ski. Sochi actually hosted the Olympic Games a few years ago. Then Russia has history of tolerance and equality among it's multicultural society. It's used to be an a multiethnic empire. In Soviet times, whatever your ethnic background was, you were treated equally and sent to the gulag if you opposed the regime. I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed that much.

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## Minty

> Have you considered to Russia? Apart from your last point it is ideal. The economy is very stable with a growth at 1.3%, so not too high and not too low. Unemployment is at a very reasonable 5%. In the south, for example in Sochi, the weather is very hot in summer and you can swim in the Black Sea, but it snows in winter and you can also ski. Sochi actually hosted the Olympic Games a few years ago. Then Russia has history of tolerance and equality among it's multicultural society. It's used to be an a multiethnic empire. In Soviet times, whatever your ethnic background was, you were treated equally and sent to the gulag if you opposed the regime. I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed that much.


I think he did say that he does not want Eastern European countries with a communistic or soviet union background. With these countries, he told us, he would not feel safe settling down.

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## LeBrok

> Have you considered to Russia? Apart from your last point it is ideal. The economy is very stable with a growth at 1.3%, *so not too high and not too low. Unemployment is at a very reasonable 5%. I*n the south, for example in Sochi, the weather is very hot in summer and you can swim in the Black Sea, but it snows in winter and you can also ski. Sochi actually hosted the Olympic Games a few years ago. Then Russia has history of tolerance and equality among it's multicultural society. It's used to be an a multiethnic empire. In Soviet times, whatever your ethnic background was, you were treated equally and sent to the gulag if you opposed the regime. I'm pretty sure it hasn't changed that much.


Two years into economic slump in Russia and unemployment is at 5%?!!! This must be a miracle economy. Unheard of. There must be something weird going on here. Either Putin lies on the official unemployment numbers or perhaps foreign workers (former Soviet republics) are leaving fast, vacating working places for local people. Whatever it is, there is something wrong with this picture.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ight-recession

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## Angela

Sometimes I feel like I'm Alice after she fell down the rabbit hole. Sweet lord...Russia!

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## stevenarmstrong

> You're definitely correct about the green card if you come to the U.S.
> 
> However, just for accuracy, you can live right outside New York (a forty minute to one hour train ride to fabulous cultural and sports events) and be a 45minute car ride from beautiful beaches and boating, an hour to Pine Barrens for hiking, a three hour drive to so-so skiing in New Jersey and the Catskills (or beautiful lakes for fishing and boating), and a four hour drive from great skiing in Vermont. Southern Connecticut also is very close to great beaches, and even closer to great skiing. The trip into the city is only about fifteen minutes longer.
> 
> You could find similar kinds of situations in California, at least if you're not way down in southern California. 
> 
> Now I sound like a travel agent! :)


I'd go to Switzerland or Norway. But Angela is right: we've got it all here in Southern California. But we're also overpopulated as it is, so...how about Utah? :)

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## LeBrok

> I'd go to Switzerland or Norway. But Angela is right: we've got it all here in Southern California. But we're also overpopulated as it is, so...how about Utah? :)


 If california were in Europe, it would have 100 million people, by Switzerland density.

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## Minty

> I'd go to Switzerland or Norway. But Angela is right: we've got it all here in Southern California. But we're also overpopulated as it is, so...how about Utah? :)


He did say he would like warm weather on summer so you can swim in the sea. With mountains, where skiing is possible in winter. So Norway is definitely out. I think he does not want to go outside of Europe.So Utah is not an option. I am not sure he is a fan of the Mormons neither. In France these religious bodies are banned, not sure about Portugal. Unless you are being sarcastic...

Switzerland is very expensive, more expensive than Australia. Many French or Germans who live at the border or perhaps Italians as well go work there for higher salaries and then return to their countries at the end of the day. However these people already have the linguistic and cultural abilities to do that. To my understanding, it is very competitive. I think my Swiss friend told me that these days there are Swiss people who go to France, Italy or Germany to work as well. It is now a two way street. There is racism, the French are called "Les Shadocks."

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## Minty

> Two years into economic slump in Russia and unemployment is at 5%?!!! This must be a miracle economy. Unheard of. There must be something weird going on here. Either Putin lies on the official unemployment numbers or perhaps foreign workers (former Soviet republics) are leaving fast, vacationing working places for local people. Whatever it is, there is something wrong with this picture.
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ight-recession


According to this: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russ...mployment-rate

Russia's unemployment rate is 5.6 percent.

Russia’s labour rules are some of Europe’s most restrictive and companies are under pressure from the Kremlin not to reduce staff headcount, making it difficult to fire people.

Instead, employers would rather cut salaries, reduce working hours and give staff unpaid holidays, reminiscient of Soviet-era tactics when unemployment was all but outlawed and masking the true state of the labour market.

So your North American instinct is right, I guess the ppl on that side of the world never trusted Russia...

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## LeBrok

> According to this: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russ...mployment-rate
> 
> Russia's unemployment rate is 5.6 percent.
> 
> Russia’s labour rules are some of Europe’s most restrictive and companies are under pressure from the Kremlin not to reduce staff headcount, making it difficult to fire people.
> 
> Instead, employers would rather cut salaries, reduce working hours and give staff unpaid holidays, reminiscient of Soviet-era tactics when unemployment was all but outlawed and masking the true state of the labour market.
> 
> So your North American instinct is right, I guess the ppl on that side of the world never trusted Russia...


Right. I lived in communist Poland way back when people had nothing better to do in factories than drinking vodka and playing card games. And whole country was facing shortage of even toilet paper. This is what too much of government regulation do to economy and human lives.

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## stevenarmstrong

> He did say he would like warm weather on summer so you can swim in the sea. With mountains, where skiing is possible in winter. So Norway is definitely out. I think he does not want to go outside of Europe.So Utah is not an option. I am not sure he is a fan of the Mormons neither. In France these religious bodies are banned, not sure about Portugal. Unless you are being sarcastic...
> 
> Switzerland is very expensive, more expensive than Australia. Many French or Germans who live at the border or perhaps Italians as well go work there for higher salaries and then return to their countries at the end of the day. However these people already have the linguistic and cultural abilities to do that. To my understanding, it is very competitive. I think my Swiss friend told me that these days there are Swiss people who go to France, Italy or Germany to work as well. It is now a two way street. There is racism, the French are called "Les Shadocks."


64 degrees in the summer (Norway) IS a bit too much like San Francisco. But no skiing in the winter?? Ummm... k. And what's wrong Mormons? They're businesss friendly, family friendly, and Utah is one of the top 5 most beautiful states in the Union. (You can leave the religious bigotry at the door, thank you very much.) Sure the beach is a bit of a drive, but that's a good thing as the sea levels begin to rise. As for Switzerland, the skiing is fantastic, it's gorgeous and it's rich. Rich is good.

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## stevenarmstrong

> If california were in Europe, it would have 100 million people, by Switzerland density.


It wouldn't concern me as much if we had more water (I'm from Southern California). And yes, traffic in Zurich sucks. But compared to L.A.? It's a breeze.

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## Moi-même

What about Monaco?

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## stevenarmstrong

> What about Monaco?


Only 4.5 hour drive to Chamomix! And that Mediterranean is oh so nice in the summer.

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## Minty

> 64 degrees in the summer (Norway) IS a bit too much like San Francisco. But no skiing in the winter?? Ummm... k. And what's wrong Mormons? They're businesss friendly, family friendly, and Utah is one of the top 5 most beautiful states in the Union. (You can leave the religious bigotry at the door, thank you very much.) Sure the beach is a bit of a drive, but that's a good thing as the sea levels begin to rise. As for Switzerland, the skiing is fantastic, it's gorgeous and it's rich. Rich is good.


I have never heard of Southern Europeans who like the weather in Scandinavia. 

My family in the US are Mormons, and it is true that in France any of those religions are banned. Just because I doubt an European would be interested in living in a place that is very religious therefore I have religious bigotry? 

Read this: https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-...o-called-cults

Portugal is in Europe. Have you lived in Europe? Do you know that these days Europeans are not religious? I think you are a Chinese hatter. 

Of course rich is good, the question is can you afford it?

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## Minty

> Only 4.5 hour drive to Chamomix! And that Mediterranean is oh so nice in the summer.


You're only allowed to live there (for non-citizens) if you have 1 million dollars in equity. The apartments in Monacco are hugely expensive. The average rental is about $25 000/month and many are much higher than this. To buy your looking at typically between 2 and 12 million but again you can pay much more. My question is how many people in this world can afford to live there?

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## stevenarmstrong

> I have never heard of Southern Europeans who like the weather in Scandinavia. 
> 
> My family in the US are Mormons, and it is true that in France any of those religions are banned. Just because I doubt an European would be interested in living in a place that is very religious therefore I have religious bigotry? 
> 
> Read this: https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-...o-called-cults
> 
> Portugal is in Europe. Have you lived in Europe? Do you know that these days Europeans are not religious? I think you are a Chinese hatter. 
> 
> Of course rich is good, the question is can you afford it?


Europeans aren't religious, therefore cannot live near religious people? Chinese hater? Are you for real or am I talking with a bot? Assuming you are real, I'll answer your question: yes, I have lived in Europe. And most of the people I met there could care less what religion their neighbors did or did not practice.

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## stevenarmstrong

> You're only allowed to live there (for non-citizens) if you have 1 million dollars in equity. The apartments in Monacco are hugely expensive. The average rental is about $25 000/month and many are much higher than this. To buy your looking at typically between 2 and 12 million but again you can pay much more. My question is how many people in this world can afford to live there?


Better start saving up!

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## Minty

> Europeans aren't religious, therefore cannot live near religious people? Chinese hater? Are you for real or am I talking with a bot? Assuming you are real, I'll answer your question: yes, I have lived in Europe. And most of the people I met there could care less what religion their neighbors do or do not practice.


And your assumptions based on ignorance? I have something against Mormons because I do not suggest that he should move to Utah?! Then are you assuming that I hate my family in the US who are mormons just because I don't suggest he move to Utah? Are you serious?!

How long have you lived in Europe? Which country? 

I have lived in Europe for more than 10 years now, so this is my general impression of Europeans. Maciamo for example is not so keen with religions but it does not mean that he cannot have religious neighbours. Many Europeans I met have that sort of attitude. They might not mind do it for a short term. Perhaps there are ones who do. This person wants to move out of Portugal to another country in Europe ( is Utah in Europe?), no for a better future. He said it in his post, did he not?

I think you come from the US, so you think the US is the best country in the world because you come from the US! I don't think this person wants to leave Europe but you insist this is what he wants because you like to control how people think. Your attack on me is based on my race, I can feel it, even though you try to make it look like I have religious bigotry.

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## Minty

> Better start saving up!


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...+600+Years+Ago

Take a look at this thread, the rich will always be rich and the poor will always be poor. I seriously doubt a rich person will come to Eupedia and ask for suggestions which country in Europe is the best choice to move to. He wants warm countries where he can swim in the ocean, Norway warm? Your definition of warm is very far from the norm. He is right France is a country with warm weather in the south where you can swim in the sea and in the winter there are places where he can ski. France used to be a very good country to migrate to. I migrated to France over ten years ago. However, a lot of things have changed, especially in the education system. A lot of riots and attacks too!

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## Bergin

Canary Islands

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## stevenarmstrong

> And your assumptions based on ignorance? I have something against Mormons because I do not suggest that he should move to Utah?! Then are you assuming that I hate my family in the US who are mormons just because I don't suggest he move to Utah? Are you serious?!
> 
> How long have you lived in Europe? Which country? 
> 
> I have lived in Europe for more than 10 years now, so this is my general impression of Europeans. Maciamo for example is not so keen with religions but it does not mean that he cannot have religious neighbours. Many Europeans I met have that sort of attitude. They might not mind do it for a short term. Perhaps there are ones who do. This person wants to move out of Portugal to another country in Europe ( is Utah in Europe?), no for a better future. He said it in his post, did he not?
> 
> I think you come from the US, so you think the US is the best country in the world because you come from the US! I don't think this person wants to leave Europe but you insist this is what he wants because you like to control how people think. Your attack on me is based on my race, I can feel it, even though you try to make it look like I have religious bigotry.


If you read the thread, you'll see that Angela recommended US, and Cali in particular. I simply responded to that, and suggested Utah because it met several of the criteria. Then you pitch in saying he wouldn't want to come to Utah because Mormons live there. How would you feel if someone said not to move to [fill in the blank] because Chinese people lived there? Clearly it would offend you. And it should, because it is offensive.

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## Minty

> If you read the thread, you'll see that Angela recommended US, and Cali in particular. I simply responded to that, and suggested Utah because it met several of the criteria. Then you pitch in saying he wouldn't want to come to Utah because Mormons live there. How would you feel if someone said not to move to [fill in the blank] because Chinese people lived there? Clearly it would offend you. And it should, because it is offensive.


I did not say that. I am saying that the reasons for him to consider moving to another country are the weather, the location (has to be in Europe) and non communism related, because he does not feel safe settling down there.

Then you suggested Utah, after he already told Angela he would not consider countries outside of Europe because then he needs a green card to move there.

My remarks on the Mormons are some sort of second degree joke which you took as some sort of religious bigotry. He keeps on telling us he would only consider moving to xyz countries, based on weather ( he wants to swim in the ocean and ski) this is why he wants to go to France and no communism and you keep on telling him to move out of Europe to a country surrounded by Mormons. 

I have met a lot of Mormons in my life. My American families are the reason I have talked to many Mormons. My cousin even attended Mormon university. The Mormons don’t celebrate Easter. They don’t drink coffee or tea. They choose some parts of the bible to believe and the other parts are false for them. They believe in the Book of Mormon. I think my aunt mentioned that there were two groups of Mormons one group practices polygamy. Bref, they are not successful to get me to be involved in the religion. 

I never lived in Utah, but prior to moving to France I used to live in Australia. If a foreigner were to move to Utah. This is what I am imagining what could have happened. You would get a lot of visits from the elders of The Church of Latter day Saints. I can see their black badges with their names on them, their black ties and their white shirts as I am writing this. I am getting a dejavu effect. Now, I never lived in Utah and I got a lot of visits from the Mormons when I was a teen back in Australia because they wouldn’t give up trying to convincing me to join their faith. 

I took a good look at trip advisor on Utah. I see pages and pages of rocks and I took a good look at the map of Utah to see the location of Utah in the US. It is not near the sea.

So I guess what I am joking at is, you are trying to get him to move to Utah so he can get more Mormon exposure, not that I am saying that Mormons are some kind of monster which is what you seem to try to say what I am trying to say.

Even though he tells us he does not want to go outside of Europe, he wants to ski in the mountains and swim in the ocean in Europe.

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## Coriolan

> Sometimes I feel like I'm Alice after she fell down the rabbit hole. Sweet lord...Russia!


Really? You didn't get my sarcasm with the gulags? I I added that at the end to make sure people didn't take my suggestion seriously. Johnatanasoff's criteria were so restrictive that the only country I could think of that actually fit most criteria was southern Russia. All Mediterranean European countries have high unemployment and relatively slow growing economies.

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## Angela

> Really? You didn't get my sarcasm with the gulags? I I added that at the end to make sure people didn't take my suggestion seriously. Johnatanasoff's criteria were so restrictive that the only country I could think of that actually fit most criteria was southern Russia. All Mediterranean European countries have high unemployment and relatively slow growing economies.


No, I didn't get it. Sorry if I misunderstood. It's not as if we don't have plenty of Russian apologists on here who might indeed say such a thing. Put a smiley next time if you want to be sure you won't be misunderstood. As for the gulag statement I had no idea what you meant but I often have a bit of difficulty figuring out what some people mean given that English isn't their first language. 

You're right about southern European economies, and part of the reason is they got sold a bill of goods about the Euro. The other reason is they don't have much good farmland and no energy resources of their own. 

I'm afraid Switzerland beat them to it in creating a haven for the money of every Nazi, Communist leader, mass murderer, despot, thief, dishonest business man and tax cheat in the world, so that's out.

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## Coriolan

> No, I didn't get it. Sorry if I misunderstood. It's not as if we don't have plenty of Russian apologists on here who might indeed say such a thing. Put a smiley next time if you want to be sure you won't be misunderstood. As for the gulag statement I had no idea what you meant but I often have a bit of difficulty figuring out what some people mean given that English isn't their first language.


Ok, I will work on my English then. 😕




> You're right about southern European economies, and part of the reason is they got sold a bill of goods about the Euro. The other reason is they don't have much good farmland and no energy resources of their own.


Not much good farmlands? Spain is the breadbasket of Europe producing most of the fruits and vegetables consumed by Europeans. Then, all Southern European countries produce a big share of the world's olive oil, grapes and wine, which is nothing to be snuffed at. Wine in particular as much more profitable per square meter of land than potatoes or wheat. As for natural resources if the Dutch and Danes managed to get electricity from wind farms and the Germans from solar energy, there is no reason why Mediterraneans couldn't do as well or better as they have plenty of sun and wind too. Only Norway and Scotland have economies that were blessed by petrol, but that's not going to last with the current prices. 




> I'm afraid Switzerland beat them to it in creating a haven for the money of every Nazi, Communist leader, mass murderer, despot, thief, dishonest business man and tax cheat in the world, so that's out.


I know that, but what does that have to do with what I said? Rather uncalled for, don't you think?

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## Angela

Germany doesn't get most of its electricity from solar power. Solar and wind power and these other alternative methods aren't yet cost effective. Surely you know that? What do you think fueled Germany's industrialization? The coal of the Ruhr is what fueled industrialization. Germany is still burning its own coal. It also uses nuclear energy.

"In 2013 coal made up about 45% of Germany's electricity production (19% from hard coal and 26% from lignite)".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany

Add to that all that nice flat farmland, although it wasn't enough for them; they wanted Poland's as well. Do you know when northern Europe finally started to develop and become powerful? It started when sturdy, metal plows were invented which could turn that heavy soil. 

I don't know about Spain's agriculture. Greece is just one big mountain with a few valleys. As for Italian food production, just look at it...how much flat farmland do you see?You think you can feed 60+ million people on that?

 Italy hasn't been able to produce enough food even for its own people since antiquity. Remember the Roman Empire and all those fleets of grain shipments from Egypt and the Near East to Rome? It relies on olive oil and wine because olive trees and vines can grow on poor land. You can't live on olive oil and wine. Even half the wheat for bread and pasta has to be imported. Those great Italian clothes and Italian cars are made from wool and linen and cotton imported expensively from abroad, and steel and iron and rubber have to be imported as well. 

"Italy is a net importer country of agri-food products due to its structural lack of natural resources."
http://s3.amazonaws.com/zanran_stora.../107529857.pdf

Italy has been living on what economists call "added value" or value added by ingenuity and design and craftsmanship added on to imported raw materials, since at least the Middle Ages. Don't they teach any of this in econ courses in Europe any more? 

We've been overpopulated for the terrain for thousands of years. That's what happens when you've been settled and farming for 7,000 years, and it's also why one of our biggest exports is people. That's why some Italians aren't at all unhappy that we now have one of the lowest birthrates in the worl. It's the world's loss in my opinion.

As to the last comment, yes, I was snarky, but I only respond in kind. If I get civility, I give it back. If I don't, I don't. I gave up being a Christian and turning the other cheek quite a while ago.

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## Coriolan

> Germany doesn't get most of its electricity from solar power. Solar and wind power and these other alternative methods aren't yet cost effective. Surely you know that? What do you think fueled Germany's industrialization? The coal of the Ruhr is what fueled industrialization. Germany is still burning its own coal. It also uses nuclear energy.
> 
> "In 2013 coal made up about 45% of Germany's electricity production (19% from hard coal and 26% from lignite)".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany


Why are you talking about the industrial revolution? I'm talking about now. And even data from 2013 is outdated as renewable energy is progressing fast. German people are commited to completely phase out nuclear energy within the next few years. 

Solar energy is already cost effective in Germany, Italy and Spain among others. 

Here is more from Wikipedia. 

Net-generation from renewable energy sources in the German electricity sector has increased from 6.3% in 2000 to about 34% in 2016.

While peak-generation from combined wind and solar reached a previous all-time high of 74% in April 2014




> As to the last comment, yes, I was snarky, but I only respond in kind. If I get civility, I give it back. If I don't, I don't. I gave up being a Christian and turning the other cheek quite a while ago.


What have I ever done to you? I just pointed out that my comments about Russia were not serious. I never mentioned anything about you.

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## SteveGordon

Have you tried online planning? It is often useful because it takes in account personal preferences. Try our routeprefect or some place similar. I have found them useful several times.

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## johnatanasoff

> I did not say that. I am saying that the reasons for him to consider moving to another country are the weather, the location (has to be in Europe) and non communism related, because he does not feel safe settling down there.
> 
> Then you suggested Utah, after he already told Angela he would not consider countries outside of Europe because then he needs a green card to move there.
> 
> My remarks on the Mormons are some sort of second degree joke which you took as some sort of religious bigotry. He keeps on telling us he would only consider moving to xyz countries, based on weather ( he wants to swim in the ocean and ski) this is why he wants to go to France and no communism and you keep on telling him to move out of Europe to a country surrounded by Mormons. 
> 
> I have met a lot of Mormons in my life. My American families are the reason I have talked to many Mormons. My cousin even attended Mormon university. The Mormons don’t celebrate Easter. They don’t drink coffee or tea. They choose some parts of the bible to believe and the other parts are false for them. They believe in the Book of Mormon. I think my aunt mentioned that there were two groups of Mormons one group practices polygamy. Bref, they are not successful to get me to be involved in the religion. 
> 
> I never lived in Utah, but prior to moving to France I used to live in Australia. If a foreigner were to move to Utah. This is what I am imagining what could have happened. You would get a lot of visits from the elders of The Church of Latter day Saints. I can see their black badges with their names on them, their black ties and their white shirts as I am writing this. I am getting a dejavu effect. Now, I never lived in Utah and I got a lot of visits from the Mormons when I was a teen back in Australia because they wouldn’t give up trying to convincing me to join their faith. 
> ...



Hi Minty,


Sorry the late reply, but the website for some reason would not let me write a reply directly in the editor and i waited to see it fixed. 


Seems you were one of the few who actually payed attention to my wishes regarding the right fit for me. Thanks for that!




I can't go outside of the EU because of Visa requirements; simple!
Within the EU, France is appealing because of the weather and nature. It's still a powerfull country with a good economy. Better than Portugal for sure!


But regarding working and living opportunities i currently have in mind Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands and Luxembourgh as my top choices.
Germany i can snowboard in winter and swim in the ocean in the summer. 
For ocean swiming in the other 3 countries i'l have to travel which is OK :P




Thanks again for your replies and help!

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## Minty

> Hi Minty,
> Sorry the late reply, but the website for some reason would not let me write a reply directly in the editor and i waited to see it fixed. 
> Seems you were one of the few who actually payed attention to my wishes regarding the right fit for me. Thanks for that!
> I can't go outside of the EU because of Visa requirements; simple!
> Within the EU, France is appealing because of the weather and nature. It's still a powerfull country with a good economy. Better than Portugal for sure!
> But regarding working and living opportunities i currently have in mind Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands and Luxembourgh as my top choices.
> Germany i can snowboard in winter and swim in the ocean in the summer. 
> For ocean swiming in the other 3 countries i'l have to travel which is OK :P
> Thanks again for your replies and help!


I have not been to this website for a very long time, hence, sorry for my late reply. :)

I have to say the countries where you have chosen are typical choices of Europeans I know, especially from the part of Europe you come from.

Germany: for a very long time Germany remains to have the best economy in Europe. Today, Germany continues to be one of the world’s most powerful and dynamic economies. This is why you chose Germany. I think a lot of Spanish moved to Germany because of their high unemployment rates.

Switzerland: you want to go there because their salary is higher, just like French or Germans who have moved there to work, or perhaps the Italians as well. However, Lugano is small and is like a Hollywood star residence area. I doubt that there are many jobs available. The French parts of Switzerland are more expensive than the German parts. There is one problem with migrating to rich countries or cities, unless you got a very good job you would need to work 2 to 3 jobs to survive over there. Swiss German is different from high German. However, the Germanophones understand each other. For foreigners, it can be difficult.

The Netherlands: Dutch economy expands at the fastest rate since joining the euro. Every year when I take a look at the world's richest countries, they seem to be improving while the France drops its ranking year by year. However, I don't know much about the Dutch, to be honest.

Finally, Luxembourg: there are a lot of Portuguese in Luxembourg. Limitations: From what I know they look down at the Portuguese over there. Advantages: It is the wealthiest country in the EU, and you already have many of your own people over there, networking is very important to get jobs. To survive in Luxembourg, you need French and English or German, you may need to learn Luxembourger as well. However, I think the Luxembourgers are relatively friendier than the Swiss on average. They are similar to the Swiss, very discreet people. They keep to themselves. As a Southern European, you may find them cold.

Most Europeans learn each other's languages. Aside from Portuguese, and English, have you mastered your German and French well? With countries who use multiple languages such as Luxembourg, Switzerland probably Belgium as well, you need to specialise in one of their main languages with a skill (Medicine, IT, Engineer, MBA...etc). With the other languages spoken in their countries, you need at least a sound level in those languages. You cannot be clueless, if you want to get a job.

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## Minty

If a foreigner wants to work in the US, there are fees and other terms and conditions apply as well. 
For foreigners who want to move to the US: Immigrant Visa Application Processing Fees (non-refundable, per person)
Immediate relative and family preference applications (processed on the basis of an approved I-130, I-600 or I-800 petition)	$325.00
Employment-based applications (processed on the basis of an approved I-140 or I-526 petition)	$345.00
Their health care system is extremely expensive over there and university fees increase year by year.

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## johnatanasoff

> I have not been to this website for a very long time, hence, sorry for my late reply. :)
> I have to say the countries where you have chosen are typical choices of Europeans I know, especially from the part of Europe you come from.
> Germany: for a very long time Germany remains to have the best economy in Europe. Today, Germany continues to be one of the world’s most powerful and dynamic economies. This is why you chose Germany. I think a lot of Spanish moved to Germany because of their high unemployment rates.
> Switzerland: you want to go there because their salary is higher, just like French or Germans who have moved there to work, or perhaps the Italians as well. However, Lugano is small and is like a Hollywood star residence area. I doubt that there are many jobs available. The French parts of Switzerland are more expensive than the German parts. There is one problem with migrating to rich countries or cities, unless you got a very good job you would need to work 2 to 3 jobs to survive over there. Swiss German is different from high German. However, the Germanophones understand each other. For foreigners, it can be difficult.
> The Netherlands: Dutch economy expands at the fastest rate since joining the euro. Every year when I take a look at the world's richest countries, they seem to be improving while the France drops its ranking year by year. However, I don't know much about the Dutch, to be honest.
> Finally, Luxembourg: there are a lot of Portuguese in Luxembourg. Limitations: From what I know they look down at the Portuguese over there. Advantages: It is the wealthiest country in the EU, and you already have many of your own people over there, networking is very important to get jobs. To survive in Luxembourg, you need French and English or German, you may need to learn Luxembourger as well. However, I think the Luxembourgers are relatively friendier than the Swiss on average. They are similar to the Swiss, very discreet people. They keep to themselves. As a Southern European, you may find them cold.
> Most Europeans learn each other's languages. Aside from Portuguese, and English, have you mastered your German and French well? With countries who use multiple languages such as Luxembourg, Switzerland probably Belgium as well, you need to specialise in one of their main languages with a skill (Medicine, IT, Engineer, MBA...etc). With the other languages spoken in their countries, you need at least a sound level in those languages. You cannot be clueless, if you want to get a job.


Minty, thanks for your reply and insight!

I am set on Zurich 1st choice or London 2nd choice!
Zurich only if i am well payed, otherwise i won't go! And in this case i will learn german!


If london; as for snowboarding or surfind etc, i'l have to travel!


I am quite skilled in IT!

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## Minty

> Minty, thanks for your reply and insight!
> I am set on Zurich 1st choice or London 2nd choice!
> Zurich only if i am well payed, otherwise i won't go! And in this case i will learn german!
> If london; as for snowboarding or surfind etc, i'l have to travel!
> I am quite skilled in IT!


Well, if you want to go to the UK, you better do it ASAP because of Brexit. Theresa May said on July 31 that it was “wrong” to suggest the free movement of people will “continue as it is now” after March 2019.

After this date, EU workers moving to the UK will have to register until a permanent post-Brexit immigration policy is put in place.

Well, with regards to your IT skills, as far as I know, they do recognise each other's skills within Europe. If you are European, it is much easier to have your skills recognised than people who are outside of Europe, except, perhaps people from the commonwealth. 

However, it is different with the commonwealth. The British have always charged a high fee for the movement of their Asian commonwealth members migrating into the UK. Hence, the Asians who can migrate or go there to study as overseas students in the UK are always the upper class. My birth country Malaysia, for example, all the prime ministers, the arostocrats and the other rich people all have English degrees. The middle upper class, tend to stay there after graduation while the top of the pyramid go back because they are the upper class of the Malaysian society. If you are are rich and powerful, why would you want to live under another ethnic and put up with racism amongst other things.

The British like the well-educated middle-upper class immigrants who bring profits to the country. They do not wish to continue with the EU, is partly due to too many poor Europeans enter into the UK and the UK ended up helping them much more than them giving back to the UK. I suppose what I am saying is that the British prefer wealthy immigrants rather than poor immigrants.

With Australia, due to the high amount of divorce fee due to Brexit, I heard that they made it difficult for UK citizens who have foreign spouses to return to the UK. Thousands more Britons will be barred from bringing their foreign husbands and wives to the UK, under plans in the Conservative manifesto.
Australians who want to study in the UK also have to pay the high fee just like the Asian commonwealth members. Having said that, I have never heard of white people business migrate to another first world country. Business immigrants are predominantly Chinese origins people. With the others, from what I know are either skill immigrants who got sponsored after graduation or they married somebody in that country and hence they immigrated to that country.

The UK has too many immigrants. The working and middle class British are fed up with this. The government also lacks money. Hence, they will increase the earnings thresholds for people wishing to sponsor migrants for family visas. Moreover, they will toughen the visa requirements for students, to make sure that they maintain high standards.Furthermore, they will expect students to leave the country at the end of their course, unless they meet new, higher requirements that allow them to work in Britain after their studies have concluded.

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## johnatanasoff

> If you are are rich and powerful, why would you want to live under another ethnic and put up with racism amongst other things.


That's the thing. I am not yet! :)

Zurich is harder to get work than London and maybe more expensive. That's why i said i got to get well payed.
Too risky without good money as without a good German level if i get fired i might have trouble finding another job.

As i speak fluent English, London is a safer bet!

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## Salento

> That's the thing. I am not yet! :)
> 
> Zurich is harder to get work than London and maybe more expensive. That's why i said i got to get well payed.
> Too risky without good money as without a good German level if i get fired i might have trouble finding another job.
> 
> As i speak fluent English, London is a safer bet!


Most Foreigners in the US after a while feel Americans, (I Belong). 
Not so in Europe.

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## don_joe

In North Korea you can ski and they would certainly find a job for you.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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## johnatanasoff

> Most Foreigners in the US after a while feel Americans, (I Belong). 
> Not so in Europe.


Yeah; some European countries are very discriminating against foreigners!

I'd like to live in the US but i don't have time for the visa stuff and waste my time looking for sponsorship etc.

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## johnatanasoff

> In North Korea you can ski and they would certainly find a job for you.



Their ski resort is not bad actually. About the job i don't know who would want to work there...
I know you are kidding. 
But if for you North Korea is that good, why don't you leave Switzerland and move there?

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## don_joe

> Their ski resort is not bad actually. About the job i don't know who would want to work there...
> I know you are kidding. 
> But if for you North Korea is that good, why don't you leave Switzerland and move there?


Well you know....since I originally come from an ex communist country, I think I've tried enough of that.  Sure it was a joke. Did you you actually try those ski resorts there? Or did you see it in TV?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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## johnatanasoff

> Well you know....since I originally come from an ex communist country, I think I've tried enough of that.  Sure it was a joke. Did you you actually try those ski resorts there? Or did you see it in TV?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Eupedia Forum mobile app


I recommend you Republic of Congo. You will be like a king there and they will certainly find you a job there!
What are you doing in Switzerland? Such a crappy country!

Hurry back to croatia or bulgaria! In the end of the day you're all in the same bag!

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## don_joe

> I recommend you Republic of Congo. You will be like a king there and they will certainly find you a job there!
> What are you doing in Switzerland? Such a crappy country!
> 
> Hurry back to croatia or bulgaria! In the end of the day you're all in the same bag!


Love brought me to Switzerland. I was kidding, didn't mean to offend you.

Seriously, Switzerland is not that far away. They have a good standard. But someone with southern blood will need some time to adapt. You can ski all around the country within a reasonable driving distance. Summers are hot and there are many rivers and lakes to swim in. In Ticino region you have palm trees and warm mediterranean climate. 

Good luck with your relocation. Wherever you decide to go.

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## Minty

> That's the thing. I am not yet! :)
> 
> Zurich is harder to get work than London and maybe more expensive. That's why i said i got to get well payed.
> Too risky without good money as without a good German level if i get fired i might have trouble finding another job.
> 
> As i speak fluent English, London is a safer bet!


All the best to you for your relocation :)

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## johnatanasoff

> Love brought me to Switzerland. I was kidding, didn't mean to offend you.
> 
> Seriously, Switzerland is not that far away. They have a good standard. But someone with southern blood will need some time to adapt. You can ski all around the country within a reasonable driving distance. Summers are hot and there are many rivers and lakes to swim in. In Ticino region you have palm trees and warm mediterranean climate. 
> 
> Good luck with your relocation. Wherever you decide to go.


I'm set on Zurich! Because its where most jobs and opportunities are available!

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## johnatanasoff

> All the best to you for your relocation :)


Thanks for your replies and help Minty! :)

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## noman

Come to the US!
Economy is booming.

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## johnatanasoff

> Come to the US!
> Economy is booming.



I like the US. 
I love music gear and high end technology stuff; there's plenty there!
But i don't want to waste my time applying for a visa or whatever...

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## srdceleva

Slovenia. I know u said no former communist countries but your paranoia is unfounded. Slovenia is probably safer than portugal. It is a beautiful country with mountains and sea. The economy is the best from all of former communist europe and the people are open and friendly.

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## noman

> I like the US. 
> I love music gear and high end technology stuff; there's plenty there!
> But i don't want to waste my time applying for a visa or whatever...


You never know. I got my Visa in just 2 months. Just apply!

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## Salento

Come to America. You are an IT expert, get some CompTia Certifications: A+, Network+, Security+, also some Microsoft OS Certification.
Apply to Companies, and take it from there.

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## johnatanasoff

> You never know. I got my Visa in just 2 months. Just apply!


Green card or work visa?
What did you do? You applied for jobs and a company sponsored you?

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## johnatanasoff

> Come to America. You are an IT expert, get some CompTia Certifications: A+, Network+, Security+, also some Microsoft OS Certification.
> Apply to Companies, and take it from there.


Although i am focusing on web development; the certifications you mentioned are all good to have!
Thinking to get CCNA certified eventually.

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## johnatanasoff

> Slovenia. I know u said no former communist countries but your paranoia is unfounded. Slovenia is probably safer than portugal. It is a beautiful country with mountains and sea. The economy is the best from all of former communist europe and the people are open and friendly.



Probably slovenia is safer than portugal but i am decided in Zurich or London!
Would like US but unlikely to happen.

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## noman

> Green card or work visa?
> What did you do? You applied for jobs and a company sponsored you?


I came here on student visa.

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## michaelmanson

France, Italy, Malta

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## dia38europe

Denmark, Malta, Romania.

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## adamgilcristt

I would recommend the Netherlands because I know some good things about this beautiful country that make it a special place to live such as Boat life, beautiful interiors, no traffic jams, amazing infrastructure for cycling etc.

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## SunnyDay

I would suggest Italy

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## SunnyDay

The Netherlands will be good, as well

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## Angalfaria

> You're only allowed to live there (for non-citizens) if you have 1 million dollars in equity. The apartments in Monacco are hugely expensive. The average rental is about $25 000/month and many are much higher than this. To buy your looking at typically between 2 and 12 million but again you can pay much more. My question is how many people in this world can afford to live there?



I think Dubai is one of the best places for traveling. Dubai is one of the most beautiful places in the world with a big apartment and villas, and so many sights have to see.

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## StevenEvans

If you want to make stag party, I will recommend Ukraine)
Check staginkiev.com

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## Joker

> I am looking to move out from Portugal and find another country to live indefinitely. 
> I would like you to advise me the top 3 countries offering me what i look for.
> 
> 
> Key important points for me to consider relocating:
> 
> - Country with a "good, stable financial situation" where unemployment rate isn't high.
> 
> - Where foreigners are tolerated and people are treated equally.
> ...


Come to the USA.
We're the most tolerant nation on Earth.
Our economy is very strong, and the climate varies massively regionally and can be selected to fit your exact needs.
Why stay in the EU?
They have no future and will soon collapse like a house of cards.

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## AmondoO

Good option Italy

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