# Humanities & Anthropology > Anthropology & Ethnography > Guess the Ethnicity >  Guess this lady's ethnicity and where she would look one of the natives

## bigsnake49

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Scan_20181030 (28).jpg

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## Angela

> Scan_20181030.jpg
> Scan_20181030 (28).jpg


She could pass in a lot of places, but she looks very Greek to me, particularly in the first picture...very pretty and elegant woman.

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## bigsnake49

> She could pass in a lot of places, but she looks very Greek to me, particularly in the first picture...very pretty and elegant woman.


She was a very elegant and pretty woman. Was born in the US of European parents and was a local TV personality in the early days of TV.

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## Nik

Another typical Levantine face. One would assume she fits in Turkey, Aegean islands, Cyprus, South Italy, which is true, but I only see her as typically Levantine.

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## Johane Derite

> Another typical Levantine face. One would assume she fits in Turkey, Aegean islands, Cyprus, South Italy, which is true, but I only see her as typically Levantine.


She doesn't look levantine at all. I would have guessed central italy.

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## Angela

Nik never gets tired of t-rolling. It's like an OCD disorder. He can't help himself, so we should have some compassion. :)

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

She is cute, she smiles, it must be greek...  :Wink:

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## bigsnake49

She's 100% Italian. Father from L' Aquila, mother from Calabria! Mother might have some Ancient Greek, Magna Grecia, Sibari blood. In the second pic she's 55 yo.

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## Nik

> Nik never gets tired of t-rolling. It's like an OCD disorder. He can't help himself, so we should have some compassion. :)


Are you bipolar? One day you praise me, another you say I'm t-rolling. 

What's with the insult, again? Aren't you the moderator supposed to keep the watch? Same old story with you, then you get hypersensitive and issue infractions. 

And who am I t-rolling? Italians? Haven't I always defended Italians? Or haven't I always been anti-Nordicist? 

You're all ignorant on the Levantines. Visit Lebanon and then speak. Her eyes are super Levantine. 

I'll give you the word only on Ligurians as you can't even act knowledgeable on other Italian regions.

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## Angela

> Are you bipolar? One day you praise me, another you say I'm t-rolling. 
> 
> What's with the insult, again? Aren't you the moderator supposed to keep the watch? Same old story with you, then you get hypersensitive and issue infractions. 
> 
> And who am I t-rolling? Italians? Haven't I always defended Italians? Or haven't I always been anti-Nordicist? 
> 
> You're all ignorant on the Levantines. Visit Lebanon and then speak. Her eyes are super Levantine. 
> 
> I'll give you the word only on Ligurians as you can't even act knowledgeable on other Italian regions.


My dear Nik, I praise praiseworthy content. You do provide some, no doubt. I call out nonsense when it's nonsense. I call them as I see them honestly every single time and always have. Not everyone looks at things only through the prism of their own ethnicity, or even worse, some false idea about their own ethnicity.

I have no idea why you have to bring Italians into this. I was sure she was Greek, for goodness' sakes. :)

Some Southern Europeans can overlap with Eastern Mediterranean people phenotypically but you see it in everybody. 

That woman honestly doesn't look anything like most Levantines to me. And yes, I have a lot of experience with Southern Italians. I've been married to one for decades, and living in New York I'm surrounded by them, and by Greeks for that matter, and Jews, and I worked for a charity helping Lebanese Christians come to this country. It's not like I'm living in Poland or something. 

@BigSnake: "Una bellezza piu greca che italiana. Start at 2:45. :)

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## bigsnake49

I love the fact that entire town was supervising them in their walk :Laughing: . The older women in that clip look like they would not look out of place in my hometown.

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## Nik

> My dear Nik, I praise praiseworthy content. You do provide some, no doubt. I call out nonsense when it's nonsense. I call them as I see them honestly every single time and always have. Not everyone looks at things only through the prism of their own ethnicity, or even worse, some false idea about their own ethnicity.
> 
> I have no idea why you have to bring Italians into this. I was sure she was Greek, for goodness' sakes. :)
> 
> Some Southern Europeans can overlap with Eastern Mediterranean people phenotypically but you see it in everybody. 
> 
> That woman honestly doesn't look anything like most Levantines to me. And yes, I have a lot of experience with Southern Italians. I've been married to one for decades, and living in New York I'm surrounded by them, and by Greeks for that matter, and Jews, and I worked for a charity helping Lebanese Christians come to this country. It's not like I'm living in Poland or something.


So why do you fall into the so-called "Balkan level" and assume an entire story behind my post? 

I've lived 7 years between the Middle East, Balkans, and Italy, therefore I apply this limited knowledge on the guessing topics.

Before I was like you all, basing my ideas on people I met while growing up in Switzerland or travelling, but now I look back that I was so wrong and I can even tell between Lebanese/Syrians, Iranians, Gulf Arabs, Jordanians, Egyptians, Algerians, etc. 

Remember that Greeks are in small numbers compared to Arabs, and they have considerable amount of Albanian, Vlach, Slavic, Pontian, Asia Minor Greeks, Cypriot etc. admixture, reducing the number of "typical Greeks" to half or more. Then among the remaining ones you have the mainland and island types. 

That said, when you call an island Greek as typical and I see this specific phenotype very widespread among Arabs and Levanites, I'll obviously called it Arab as they're in considerable higher numbers than just island Greeks for example. 

And at the end of the day, it's my opinion and I'm exercising my right to share it. Anyone can agree or disagree without the need to pinpoint possible mental health issues that I might have.

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## bigsnake49

> So why do you fall into the so-called "Balkan level" and assume an entire story behind my post? 
> 
> I've lived 7 years between the Middle East, Balkans, and Italy, therefore I apply this limited knowledge on the guessing topics.
> 
> Before I was like you all, basing my ideas on people I met while growing up in Switzerland or travelling, but now I look back that I was so wrong and I can even tell between Lebanese/Syrians, Iranians, Gulf Arabs, Jordanians, Egyptians, Algerians, etc. 
> 
> Remember that Greeks are in small numbers compared to Arabs, and they have considerable amount of Albanian, Vlach, Slavic, Pontian, Asia Minor Greeks, Cypriot etc. admixture, reducing the number of "typical Greeks" to half or more. Then among the remaining ones you have the mainland and island types. 
> 
> That said, when you call an island Greek as typical and I see this specific phenotype very widespread among Arabs and Levanites, I'll obviously called it Arab as they're in considerable higher numbers than just island Greeks for example. 
> ...


There is nothing Levantine about her. Now I have met quite a few Lebanese girls in mytime. My son was dating a Lebanese girl for a while. You could have said that she might look Albanian since Albanians, Greeks and Italians, particularly Southern Italians, are very close genetically.

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## Angela

> I love the fact that entire town was supervising them in their walk. The older women in that clip look like they would not look out of place in my hometown.


Not so long ago all of Southern Italy was like that. When my Dad was in the navy they stationed him in Naples. He asked a girl he met to go to the movies, and when he went to pick her up her two younger sisters were with her. Next thing he knows her brothers are asking when he's going to marry her! He had to go to his superior officers and they reassigned him back up north. :)

They didn't fool around.

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## Nik

> There is nothing Levantine about her. Now I have met quite a few Lebanese girls in mytime. My son was dating a Lebanese girl for a while. You could have said that she might look Albanian since Albanians, Greeks and Italians, particularly Southern Italians, are very close genetically.


I know more Levantine than Italians with her appearance (based on the first picture). Then again, it's your opinion against mine. Does she look Italian? Of course. Does she look Greek? Of course. 

Albanians dont look like most Greeks or South Italians, and Albanians are genetically close to Tuscans and North Italians.

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## bigsnake49

> I know more Levantine than Italians with her appearance (based on the first picture). Then again, it's your opinion against mine. Does she look Italian? Of course. Does she look Greek? Of course. 
> 
> Albanians dont look like most Greeks or South Italians, and Albanians are genetically close to Tuscans and North Italians.


...and yet there are a lot of Arbereshe towns in southern Italy. One of them Spezzano di Albanese is right next door to Terranova di Sibari where her mother came from. For all we know there might be some Arbereshe blood somewhere, since the two towns are so close together. Of course she could have taken after her father's family from L'Aquila.

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## Nik

> ...and yet there are a lot of Arbereshe towns in southern Italy. One of them Spezzano di Albanese is right next door to Terranova di Sibari where her mother came from. For all we know there might be some Arbereshe blood somewhere, since the two towns are so close together. Of course she could have taken after her father's family from L'Aquila.


...and yet you think the Arbereshe still look Albanian.

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## Angela

OMG. We get it Nik: to you most Southern Italians and Greeks look Levantine. 

Great. Are you done now????

It's a beautiful summer evening and I had to come on here to read this drivel again??? I must be mental.

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## Nik

> OMG. We get it Nik: to you most Southern Italians and Greeks look Levantine.


Untrue. I've always stated in every topic discussed that Italians look Italians from North to South no matter the phenotypes or pigmentation. 

Your intervention was unnecessary too, because Arbereshe look Italian as well. 

Are you all offended by the fact that there's resemblance within the Mediterranean, including the Levantines? I don't get it. Would you get so triggered if I guessed her as French or Spanish? Hidden racism much?

Weren't you aware that the Lebanese women were voted as the most beautiful in the world once?

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## Jovialis

> I know more Levantine than Italians with her appearance (based on the first picture). Then again, it's your opinion against mine. Does she look Italian? Of course. Does she look Greek? Of course. 
> 
> Albanians dont look like most Greeks or South Italians, and Albanians are genetically close to Tuscans and North Italians.


Albanians, are pretty phenotypically diverse. My friend, an Italian guy, is married to one, she's a nice lady. I know her friends who are mostly Albanian too. I went to their wedding, and I noticed this. His wife has light features, but there were indeed some that looked a darker, in hair, eyes, and skin-tone. I think the same phenotypic-diversity can be observed in all Italians, and Greeks, in general. imo

In terms of genetics, Albanians overlap with Thessaloniki Greeks more than anyone. More than Tuscans, or North Italians.

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## Johane Derite

> In terms of genetics, Albanians overlap with Thessaloniki Greeks more than anyone. More than Tuscans, or North Italians.


Yes I often see this on calculators and such and have wondered for a long time what this is picking up on. From my anecdotal observation i especially see Kosovo Albanians getting the thessaloniki results, and this baffled me considering Kosovo Albanians were among the most isolated/rural and had no real deep interactions with thessaloniki.

My conclusion is that it must be ancient shared Dardanian/Macedonian ancestry. 

Shkupi is considered the Dardanian capital by many archeologists, and the ancient Macedonian capital and Shkupi were naturally one ecosystem connected by the Vardar Valley and river. Populations would have easily moved from Shkupi to Pella and vice-versa and must have interacted.

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## bigsnake49

In some of the oracles on different calculators, Kossovars are usually the second ethnicity I am closest to.

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## Jovialis

> Untrue. I've always stated in every topic discussed that Italians look Italians from North to South no matter the phenotypes or pigmentation. 
> Your intervention was unnecessary too, because Arbereshe look Italian as well. 
> Are you all offended by the fact that there's resemblance within the Mediterranean, including the Levantines? I don't get it. Would you get so triggered if I guessed her as French or Spanish? Hidden racism much?
> Weren't you aware that the Lebanese women were voted as the most beautiful in the world once?


I'm trying to wrap my head around what you mean. Looking "levantine" is rather dubious. I don't think levantine people look uniform. There's phenotypic diversity in that region too. Also of course there is some resemblence, the Levant shares some overlapping populations, like copper age Anatolian. As well as incursions from later groups coming in from the west, like philistines, greeks, and Romans. There is no hidden racism, but now that I think of it, didn't you accuse me of acting like a mafioso, for asking you to behave in the forum? It sounds like you may have something against southern Italians.

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## td120

> In some of the oracles on different calculators, Kossovars are usually the second ethnicity I am closest to.




Same here. More pronounced if one has ancestry from Thrace...on some calculators Kosovar or Thessalonian Greek or Macedonian would pop up before Bulgarian. Johane Derite may be right on this but it is just a part of the whole story it seems.

P.S. The lady looked completely Greek to me.

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## Nik

> I'm trying to wrap my head around what you mean. Looking "levantine" is rather dubious. I don't think levantine people look uniform. There's phenotypic diversity in that region too. Also of course there is some resemblence, the Levant shares some overlapping populations, like copper age Anatolian. As well as incursions from later groups coming in from the west, like philistines, greeks, and Romans. There is no hidden racism, but now that I think of it, didn't you accuse me of acting like a mafioso, for asking you to behave in the forum? It sounds like you may have something against southern Italians.


No people on earth nowadays looks uniform, it's just that her phenotype (based on the first black and white picture) looks very widespread among Levantine to me personally after having more contact than the other posters in this topic. 

If you post more pictures or a Levantine poster dismisses my opinion, I'll take a step back I don't care. 

The "hidden racism" was not directed to you but to bigsnake and Angela especially for insulting me because I simply shared my opinion. 

I guessed her as Levantine before she was revealed to be Italian and I was attacked for being anti-Italian. Where's the logic? 

As for you, I got nothing against you but you did unfairly issue an infraction to me before although I don't remember why. 

I don't hate South Italians, on the contrary they're my favourite Italians together with Sardinians and I dislike and oppose the weakness that modern North Italy is showing, especially in politics, internal and external. 

I also don't dislike mafiosos, on the contrary I find common ground with many of them from the circumstances of our upbringing due to the bureaucratic societies of the Western world. Even if I did hate them, you're far from being one and personally I think generalizing is a major sign of low IQ. 

Oltretutto io sono cresciuto in mezzo agli italiani ed ogni volta che visito l'Italia mi sento come se fossi a casa, e non per i musei, ristoranti o centri commerciali ma piuttosto per lo stile di vita.

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## Nik

> Albanians, are pretty phenotypically diverse. My friend, an Italian guy, is married to one, she's a nice lady. I know her friends who are mostly Albanian too. I went to their wedding, and I noticed this. His wife has light features, but there were indeed some that looked a darker, in hair, eyes, and skin-tone. I think the same phenotypic-diversity can be observed in all Italians, and Greeks, in general. imo
> 
> In terms of genetics, Albanians overlap with Thessaloniki Greeks more than anyone. More than Tuscans, or North Italians.


True, just like any other country. Pigmentation shouldn't even be part of the argument as we obviously are diverse even within the same family/clan. 

Just like Italy or Greece, Albanians have dinaric, alpine, and mediterranean phenotypes for the most part, only that the ratios between the countries change, with Albania having way more dinaric and Greece more Mediterranean. Simple as that. 

Surprisingly though, Albanians don't resemble Greeks from Thessaloniki despite the genetic overlap. Rather we resemble more with Aetolians, some Thessalians and Peloponnesians, besides the obvious Epirotes. Even Corfiotes that are so close to us don't resemble much. 

P.s. What could explain the genetic affinity of the Albanians with Makedonians could be the fact that during the Avaro-Slavic attacks on Thessaloniki between 614-616 AD it was recorded that the area was flooded with refugees from Dardania, Pannonia, and Thrace, especially after the sacking of Naissus and Serdica by the aforementioned. I mean besides the proximity and cultural ties between the South Illyrians, Epirotes, Paeonians, and Makedonians, as well as the fact that Philip II brought many of such tribes down from the mountains and trained them as phalangites. Only 1 account counted 10.000 Illyrians given land in Makedon to be later trained and recruited. 

That could be one of the reasons that explains the large numbers of Vlachs in the area.

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## td120

Another addition to the local genepool is the arrival of Kuber .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber





> Kuber was the ruler of a mixed population in the former Roman province of Pannonia Secunda, including the descendants of the prisoners of war whom the Avars had captured in the Balkan Peninsula and settled around Sirmium.[4][5][15] He was made governor by the khagan.[7][16]Historian Samuel Szádeczky-Kardoss – who accepts Kuber's identification as Kubrat's son and thus a scion of the royal Dulo clan – writes that Kuber became governor of that region, because the Khagan wanted to separate him from his Bulgar subjects who had followed him from the Pontic steppes.[4] Kuber's subjects called themselves Sermesianoi,[16] but the Byzantines regarded them "Bulgars".[17] They preserved their Christian traditions, although their ancestors had been taken to the Avar Khaganate about 60 years before Kuber's appointment.[5]





> While negotiating with Emperor Heraclius beneath the walls of Constantinople in 617, the Avars launched a surprise attack. While they were unable to capture the city centre they pillaged the suburbs of the city and took 270,000 captives(!!!). Payments in gold and goods to the Avars reached the record sum of 200,000 solidi shortly before 626.[42]


..and there are other captives from campaigns in Pannonia,Dalmatia and Macedonia that probably came back south with Kuber.

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## bigsnake49

> Same here. More pronounced if one has ancestry from Thrace...on some calculators Kosovar or Thessalonian Greek or Macedonian would pop up before Bulgarian. Johane Derite may be right on this but it is just a part of the whole story it seems.
> 
> P.S. The lady looked completely Greek to me.


In the calculators that don't have Kossovars as one of their populations then Bulgarians are the second population after Greek or Greek_Thessaly.

With regards to your P.S., her mother was from Terranova da Sibari which means the new land of the Sibari, the inhabitants of Sybaris, the Greek colony on the bay of Tarantum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybaris). So she could be of Ancient Greek descent or of course pure Italian or maybe Arbereshe since there is a nearby town name Spezzano di Albanesi. Now it is my own opinion that the Arvanites and Arbereshe were insular communities and it's only in the last 70-80 years that they started being assimilated into their surrounding communities. I did grow up in a town in Thrace that was 90% Arvanites so I should now a little bit about them.

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## bigsnake49

There was a lot of population movement in the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th centuries. Then there are bribes to invaders to not invade anymore and settle down. Then rewards to mercenaries that fought well for the Byzantines or the Varangian Guard. So at least on a local scale you could have some obvious anomalies.

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## Gannicus

@Nik @Johane Derite do you remember the albanian film "14 vjeç dhenderr"? I think that there are some interesting phenotypes there to discuss but i can't post any image, i don't know how to do it from the Ipad, if you could do that i would be glad to you.
The kid, Gjino, looks very south italian to me, like a kid version of Al Pacino i would even say, while the wife with whom they have married him looks like the most greek woman i have ever seen.
What do you think?

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## Johane Derite

> @Nik @Johane Derite do you remember the albanian film "14 vjeç dhenderr"?



This is the film you're talking about. I disagree with you, they all look Albanian to me.

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## Gannicus

> This is the film you're talking about. I disagree with you, they all look Albanian to me.


Yes, exactly this film.
Yes ofcourse they look albanian but the question here is: what else could they pass as other than albanian? I think the kid could pass as southern italian, particulary from sicily.

+ I find that in particular spainiards are the mediterraneans that have some types that look the most albanian, for instance look at the famous marc marquez, motogp champion, his ears, his eyes, his skin color, his lips, i mean litterally all of his features could pass as albanian.

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## Gannicus

This month i was 1 week in Budva, montenegro: people, food and environment were awesome but the funniest part was noticing the faces of people.
You could easly differentiate the locals from the serbian tourists, who are like 70% of the population now that it's summer: serbians are in average a lot more noric and pale skinned while the montenegrians were overwelmingly northern albanian looking, typical malsor, light brown skins everywhere, very hairy and albanian like eyebrows, but very tall people, i mean, they impressed me even daugh i am not that short (1.88m), probably due to better food during the 70 years of communist regime due to their lack of a factor called enver hoxha :)
As a conclusion being there with them every day was a fantastic unexpected expirience, they all noticed i was albanian because i would speak it with my parents but unlike all the serbs in the restaurant kinda watching at us in a bad unwelcoming way montenegrians were very happy and welcoming, speaking with some of them who knew english, mostly younger people cuz the elders are ofc not so international as in every other european country, they would recognize that the albanian culture and ethnicity had a crucial role in the formation of their identity but the communist regime tried to eradicate this from their common knowledge by trying to mak them feel more serbian, but this of course failed and we have an indipendent montenegro now wich is a fantastic country with a very beautiful story in the background.
They even told me that the country is kinda split in two groups: a good 20-30% of them who are real serbs who don't like albanians at all or rather they don't have that much simpathy for them, and the majority who are montenegrians and really don't have anything against albanians if not as i told you recognise the medieval history of the country as a midway of "slavicity" and "albanianness".
Nice country, especially if you are albanians, you should visit.

+ It was very funny seing them speaking with each other: tone of voice, gestures, the way they would recognize each other in the streets and salute their friends, their loud way of talking, it was like as if they were some relatives of mine just talking in a foreign language.

And no, not talking about albanian muslim minority in ulqin or Plave dhe Guci, i was in Budva-Bar, orthodox serbian speaking people.

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