# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  King Karađorđe Serbian or Albanian

## King Bardhyl

"....In 2006, a book written by journalist Milorad Bošnjak and machine engineer Slobodan Jakovljević (a direct descendant of Jakov Obrenović, half-brother of Miloš Obrenović), it was claimed that Karadjordje's ancestor was an Albanian Catholic from Kelmend called Đin Maraš Klimenta (Gjin Marash Kelmendi).

There are two royal houses in Serbia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo%C5...ince_of_Serbia


One of the autors is Slobodan Jakovljević (a direct descendant of Jakov Obrenović, half-brother of Miloš Obrenović).
Some help from serbian member to explore this hidden story.

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## King Bardhyl

This is the book:



"Karađorđevići - sakrivena istorija" , "Karadjordje - hidden story"
Both of the authors are serbs, the book was edited and printed on 2007 in *Belgrade*

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## Sile

> "....In 2006, a book written by journalist Milorad Bošnjak and machine engineer Slobodan Jakovljević (a direct descendant of Jakov Obrenović, half-brother of Miloš Obrenović), it was claimed that Karađorđe's ancestor was an Albanian Catholic from Kelmend called Đin Maraš Klimenta (Gjin Marash Kelmendi).
> 
> There are two royal houses in Serbia:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91e
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo%C5...ince_of_Serbia
> 
> 
> ...


Are they legitimate?

They are both around the time that the *lunatic napoleon Bonaparte* was creating royal houses around all of Europe for anyone who would kiss his behind

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## King Bardhyl

> Are they legitimate?
> 
> They are both around the time that the *lunatic napoleon Bonaparte* was creating royal houses around all of Europe for anyone who would kiss his behind


This is another discussion, i am interesed about the origin of King Karadjordje.

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## FBS

> This is another discussion, i am interesed about the origin of King Karadjordje.


Dimitrije Tucovic also claimed that Karadjordje was of Albanian descent.

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## King Bardhyl

> Dimitrije Tucovic also claimed that Karadjordje was of Albanian descent.


Yes, there are a lot of autors. But are mostly in serbian language. I hope our serbian friends can help us translating something.

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## King Bardhyl

Deda po ocu Karađorđa Petrovića, vođe Prvog srpskog ustanka, bio je Albanac i zvao se Đin Maraš Klimenta, navodi se u knjizi "Karađorđevići - sakrivena istorija". Knjiga je objavljena prošle sedmice, a autori su Milorad Bošnjak, novinar, i Slobodan Jakovljević, mašinski inženjer, koji je direktni potomak Jakova Obrenovića, polubrata srpskog kneza Miloša Obrenovića.
Izdavač knjige je "Lio" iz Gornjeg Milanovca, a autori su objavili i dokumenta, rukopise i razne prepiske, kojima se, kako oni tvrde, dokazuje da Karađorđevići vode poreklo od "pokatoličenog albanskog plemena" iz okoline Skadra. Autori knjige "Karađorđevići - sakrivena istorija" pozivaju se na "Glasnik Zemaljskog muzeja Bosne i Hercegovine" iz 1910. godine, broj 22, u kome se navodi da je deo plemena Klimenta stigao oko 1737. godine u okolinu Rudnika, za vreme povlačenja austrijske vojske iz Novog Pazara.
Dodaje se da je tada stiglo oko 500 albanskih porodica koji su "bili niska rasta, pritom zle i surove naravi", da su jedva govorili srpski, a voleli su stočarstvo i bili postojanog karaktera. Bošnjak i Jakovljević se posebno pozivaju na dela Andrije Luburića, koja su štampana 1937. godine, i navode da je pravoslavno pleme Klimenta slavilo Svetog Klimenta Rimskog, što su navodno slavili i Karađorđevići. 
Autori tvrde da je tu slavu slavio Karađorđe, njegov sin Aleksandar i unuk Petar, koji se "iznenada na Cetinju odriče svoje krsne slave i počinje da slavi Svetog Andreju Prvozvanog". Oni tvrde da je kralj Petar znao za poreklo svojih predaka, kao i da je pleme Klimenta štitilo kralja Petra, kao svog potomka, tokom povlačenja srpske vojske preko Albanije na početku Prvog svetskog rata.

I am try with Google translator:

"......Paternal grandfather Karadjordje Petrovic, leader of the First Serbian Uprising, was an Albanian and named Jin Maraš Clement, according to the book "Karadjordjevic Royal - hidden history." The book was published last week, and the authors are Milorad Bosnjak, journalist, and Slobodan Jakovljevic, mechanical engineer, who is a direct descendant of Jacob Obrenovic, stepbrother Serbian Prince Milos Obrenovic.Publisher of the book is "Lio" from Gornji Milanovac, and the authors have published documents, manuscripts and various correspondence, which, they say, proves that Karadjordjevic Royal originate from "pokatoličenog Albanian tribes" from around Shkodra. The authors of the book "Karadjordjevic Royal - hidden history" are invited to the "Journal of the National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina" from 1910. year, No. 22, stating that it is part of the tribe Clement arrived around 1737th in the mine environment, during the withdrawal of the Austrian army from Novi Pazar.He adds that he then reached around 500 Albanian families who were "low growth, while the evil and cruel nature" that barely spoke Serbian, and love the animal husbandry and were stable character. Bosnjak and Jakovljevic specifically refer to acts Andrew Luburić, which are printed 1937th year, and state that the tribe Clement Orthodox celebrate St. Clement of Rome, which were allegedly celebrated Karadjordjevica.The authors argue that there is glory celebrated Karagjorgje, his son Alexander and grandson Peter, who "suddenly in Cetinje waives his patron and begins to celebrate Saint Andrew the First Called." They argue that King Peter knew about the origin of their ancestors, and that the tribe Clement protected King Peter, as his descendants, during the withdrawal of the Serbian army through Albania at the beginning of the First World War.

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## Garrick

> This is another discussion, i am interesed about the origin of King Karadjordje.



Origin. Hmm? Maybe Karadjordje was from Mars, probably alien. and similar fantasies.

...
He was not king, he was "Vozd", in English often written as "Grand Leader".

He was called Karadjordje (Black George).

He was Djordje (George) Petrovic, of Montenegrin Serb origin (tribe Vasojevici).

Vasojevici tribe

http://factualworld.com/article/Vasojevi%C4%87_tribe

Karadjordje Petrovic - biography

http://factualworld.com/article/Kara..._Petrovi%C4%87

SERBIAN ROYAL FAMILY

http://www.royalfamily.org/dynasty/h...f-the-dynasty/

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## King Bardhyl

About Montenegrin tribes i have explained Ike they are slavized albanians. The autors don`t tell that he was an montenegrin, they said that he was originary from Kelmendi tribe an Albanian tribe.

BTW translation was correct?

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## FBS

I hale from Kelmendi tribe, and in my researches I have found a lot of fascinating facts about their history. Here I am copy/pasteing something from wikipedia that can shed some light about why is plausible that Karadjorjde had a Kelmendi ancestor. 

"According to some researchers, Karađorđe's paternal ancestors most likely migrated from the Herzegovina-Montenegro hills to Šumadija, during the Second Great Serb Migration in 1737–1739 under the leadership of PatriarchŠakabenta, as a result of the Austrian-Turkish War(in which Serbs took part)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91evi%C4%87_dynasty

And in Great Serb Migration some Kelmendis were also part of this migration: "In the 18th century, Hoti and Kelmendi assisted the Kuči andVasojevići in the battles against the Ottomans; after that unsuccessful war, a part of the Klimenti fled their lands.[17] After the defeat in 1737, under Archbishop Arsenije IV Jovanović Šakabenta, a significant number of Serbs and Kelmendis retreated into the north, Habsburg territory.[18] Around 1,600 of them settled in the villages of Nikinci and Hrtkovci, where they later adopted a Croat identity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmend_region

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## FBS

1782
Karl Gottlieb von Windisch:
On the Kelmendi in Syrmia (Srem)

_The wild Kelmendi tribe of northern Albania allied itself with Austriaduring the Austro-Russian-Turkish War of 1735-1739. When Austrian troops withdrew from the southern Balkans, the Kelmendi fighters in Kosovo and in the Sanjak of Novi Pazar had no choice but to retreat northwards (here under their fictitious leader Clement). They eventually reached a safe haven in the region of Syrmia (Srem), situated between the Danube and Sava Rivers, west of Belgrade in present-day Serbia. There in 1749 or 1755, the Kelmendi settled in two or three villages where they preserved their language, customs and Catholic religion well into the nineteenth century. Indeed, there were still a few Albanian speakers to be found there as late as 1921. The following report, published in 1782 in the “Hungarian Journal or Contributions to Hungarian History, Geography, Natural Science and Recent Literature,” was the first scholarly article on the Kelmendi of Syrmia. Its author, Karl Gottliebvon Windisch (1725-1793), a German Hungarian merchant and scholar fromPressburg (Bratislava), includes an interesting sampling of the Albaniandialect of Syrmia._ http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/te...99/AH1782.html

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## King Bardhyl

> I hale from Kelmendi tribe, and in my researches I have found a lot of fascinating facts about their history. Here I am copy/pasteing something from wikipedia that can shed some light about why is plausible that Karadjorjde had a Kelmendi ancestor. 
> 
> "According to some researchers, Karađorđe's paternal ancestors most likely migrated from the Herzegovina-Montenegro hills to Šumadija, during the Second Great Serb Migration in 1737–1739 under the leadership of PatriarchŠakabenta, as a result of the Austrian-Turkish War(in which Serbs took part)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91evi%C4%87_dynasty
> 
> And in Great Serb Migration some Kelmendis were also part of this migration: "In the 18th century, Hoti and Kelmendi assisted the Kuči andVasojevići in the battles against the Ottomans; after that unsuccessful war, a part of the Klimenti fled their lands.[17] After the defeat in 1737, under Archbishop Arsenije IV Jovanović Šakabenta, a significant number of Serbs and Kelmendis retreated into the north, Habsburg territory.[18] Around 1,600 of them settled in the villages of Nikinci and Hrtkovci, where they later adopted a Croat identity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmend_region


He is from your tribe, and not only he. An another important personality is from your tribe.

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## Skerdilaidas

He could be, but who cares? South Slavs have assimilated quite a bit of the indigenous Balkan folk, including Albanians, so it's not a surprise if he is with decent from Kelmendi.

Kelmendi that migrated to Srem with Arsenije are still Catholic there, while Karadorde was Orthodox, so most likely he does not hail from that group.

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