# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Questions on my Y-DNA Haplogroup T

## Huracan

Hello everyone,

I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!

A bit of background:
My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to *K2*. As everything updated, we became *M70*. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-*CTS11984*. The map shows my terminal SNP as *L131** but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is *CTS11984*. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that *CTS11984* is equivalent to *L131**? 

Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

The only other people that share the same SNP as I who have "stories" on the Nat Geno site are two men: one with a Peruvian father, born in Callao, Peru (with supposed Ashkenazim roots) and one of Irish paternal heritage with surname Sullivan.

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

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## LeBrok

Welcome to Eupedia KFundora.

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## Huracan

Thank you, LeBrok! :)

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## Sile

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have been an avid reader and follower of most of the posts and contents on this site... and now I finally joined it!
> 
> A bit of background:
> My father first tested his Y back in 2007 with National Geographic's The Genographic Project, which revealed that he and I (as well as our paternal lineage) belonged to *K2*. As everything updated, we became *M70*. Then, last summer (2013), I tested myself this time with their Geno 2.0 Beta kit and it was revealed that I was T-*CTS11984*. The map shows my terminal SNP as *L131** but the marker displayed for my profile and kit is *CTS11984*. I looked it up and it means "Chris Tyler-Smith", the scientist who recently discovered these SNPs and named them after himself. - Does this mean that *CTS11984* is equivalent to *L131**? 
> 
> Beyond this, I have been undergoing deep and intense investigation regarding the origin of my surname (Fundora) and of my deep paternal ancestry. The earliest info I have is regarding my four-times great-grandfather, Luis Fundora, born about 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.
> 
> ...


no CTS11984 marker in T tree ( last update 30 Jan. 2014) 
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

Did they give you any other markers?

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## Huracan

Sile,

I too noticed that the 2014 ISOGG tree did not have that marker. If not CTS11984, then I would just be L131.

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## Huracan

And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.

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## Sile

> And no, the only markers given were CTS11984 and L131. I just finished transferring my Nat Geno info to FamilyTree DNA and it placed me in T-L131. Will test later for P322 and P327.


below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP

*K473 equivalent 
*// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984

what is K473?

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## Huracan

Hold on, I just uploaded my transferred results into the MorleyDNA.com Y-SNP Terminal Subclade Predictor and it came up as "most likely" T1a2b-L446! (using the author's experimental tree) Using the ISOGG Tree it came up also as T1a2b-L446. I just copied and pasted the SNP results from FamilyTree DNA and I never noticed that among the SNPs I was positive for, it said: L446+.

Below are the SNP results uploaded to FTDNA:
CTS10278+, CTS10362+, CTS10416+, CTS10700+, CTS10879+, CTS109+, CTS11054+, CTS11358+, CTS11569+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11746+, CTS11796+, CTS11984+, CTS12108+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS12657+, CTS150+, CTS1774+, CTS1848+, CTS1996+, CTS2157+, CTS2336+, CTS2888+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3585+, CTS3648+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3767+, CTS3837+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4014+, CTS4201+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4652+, CTS4740+, CTS4783+, CTS482+, CTS493+, CTS5035+, CTS5175+, CTS5268+, CTS5318+, CTS5332+, CTS5336+, CTS5364+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS573+, CTS5987+, CTS6004+, CTS6045+, CTS6135+, CTS6214+, CTS6275+, CTS6276+, CTS6375+, CTS6383+, CTS6577+, CTS6800+, CTS6805+, CTS6887+, CTS6888+, CTS6907+, CTS7164+, CTS7263+, CTS7426+, CTS753+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8004+, CTS8243+, CTS8247+, CTS8397+, CTS8862+, CTS8980+, CTS8994+, CTS9268+, CTS9308+, CTS9828+, CTS9984+, F1046+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1493+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F3136+, F3335+, F3556+, F3692+, F719+, L131+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L298+, L350+, *L446+*, L455+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+, M294+, M42+, M70+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, PAGES00078+, PAGES00129+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5518+, PF5519+, PF5526+, PF5529+, PF5531+, PF5535+, PF5536+, PF5537+, PF5566+, PF5568+, PF5586+, PF5587+, PF5588+, PF5590+, PF5592+, PF5602+, PF5603+, PF5604+, PF5607+, PF5608+, PF5609+, PF5610+, PF5612+, PF5613+, PF5657+, PF5659+, PF5660+, PF5661+, PF5664+, PF5666+, PF5673+, PF5674+, PF5678+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF7460+, PF7463+, PF7464+, PF7465+, PF7466+, PF7480+, PF7481+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+

Also, on the Y-SNP predictor, when using the experimental tree, the results were (in order): T1a1, N1c1a1a1a1~2, R1b1a2a1a2b~1, and R1b1a2a2~2. I wonder what this means...if it means anything at all.

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## Huracan

> below is natogeno2 bracket for your SNP
> 
> *K473 equivalent 
> *// K474, CTS525, CTS1028, CTS1351, CTS1465, CTS3640, CTS7046, CTS8690, CTS11984
> 
> what is K473?


Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...

Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.

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## Sile

> Siles, when I looked it up, it came up on a page talking about Y-DNA Haplogroup O2b1a, with K473 being downstream of it. That makes no sense. I cannot post links yet, but it is the first result when you type in "K473 SNP" into Google and the fourth result when you type in "K473 equivalent SNP." It places it as a subgroup to O-47z. I wonder if this is a mistake or something...
> 
> Also, I just looked up on the ISOGG Tree (2014) and I came up positive also for CTS2157, CTS11796, and CTS12108, all possibly equivalent to L446.


I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.

T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy. 
T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.

Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )

On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna

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## Huracan

> I too am T-L466, although I was tested by Ftdna via the T project manager..Gareth Henson. Someone you need to contact once joining the T project.
> 
> T-L466 as advised by Mr. Henson and also on wiki T-M184 is basically british isles and eastern alps. This agrees with my ftdna haplo-origins as I only have Ireland and Italy. 
> T-L466 is nowhere to be seen in Iberia and the lowest I have found on any Ydna site is in La Rochelle France. It does arch in a northern path around to Romania. with low countries, British Isles, Germany, Scandinavia and Poland being in majority.
> 
> Since you are USA, their are 6 people in USA ranging from Washington, Maryland to south Carolina.......All those I contacted there are from Scotland, Ireland or wales only ( unusual that no English are among them )
> 
> On ysearch, there are 3 iberians with some markers as myself, but all come from galicia or cantabria...but none are L446 ydna


Nice to finally meet someone who is in the same haplogroup (and the same SNP) as me! 
-And I just contacted Gareth from the FTDNA site, thanks for telling me.

I did notice how L446 is found in "Northwest Europe and Eastern Alps" as per wiki, I did not know that its Northwest European distribution was basically the British Isles. The other people on FTDNA who had L446+ (but were identified as L131) had their earliest paternal ancestors in (or with surnames originating from) England, Scotland, Germany, Austria, and Italy. My results on the list stick out like a sore thumb, haha. Yet I am very intrigued with the absence of L446 in Iberia and my supposed "Spanish" origins.

Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect. 

Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.

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## Sile

> Now, my surname Fundora is considerably rare. It is currently found in its highest numbers in Cuba and the U.S. (Florida and New Jersey). Other places where Fundora is also found is in Puerto Rico and Mexico (supposedly), Venezuela, the Canary Islands, and maybe Spain. The proposed origins of Fundora are: (1) Catalán, coming from Fondera/Fundera (first recorded in 1657), but maybe ultimately hailing from France (Fonder, found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) and (2) Italian, coming from Fondra in Bergamo, Italy, which is pronounced Fundra in the local Bergamo dialect. 
> 
> Unfortunately, my family does not have a paper trial beyond my earliest known paternal ancestor (Luis Fundora Miranda) and I cannot use the FTDNA haplo-origins or ySearch since I have yet to actually test myself with FTDNA.


Since Bergamo is east lombard dialect with 350 years of venetian dialect thrown in, the words that come to mind are fondaor = welder
fondar = sink
fonde = foundations
fondo = deep
fondaria = foundry........but this is lombard word as venetian word for foundry is G(h)eto which comes from the word getar = pour .......as example, to pour as in for a mold for cannons

there is a town in bergamo called *isola di fondra* ..........so its very easy in italy for someone to be named after a town where they came from

There is no word I know of in the Italian dialect which comes to mind


Italian heraldry sites do say - 
Origine del cognome *Fondra*, provenienza: *Italia*

Titolo
*Conti - Nobili*

 Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso de Fondra che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il ... continua 



Family is recorded from 2 lines...........Milanese family, who's origins are venetian-dalmatian from Thomas of Fondra who Sigismund ( holy Roman Emperor) made a baron in 1413. other is , in the second part of the 16th Century, a Lorenzo ( de fondra) was made a count of the Palatin order after the death of the doge Pasquale Cicogna



fu = dead ......Latin word was quondam


The year above, 1413, is significant, due to Venetian ownership reached Verona in 1420. the East-lombard areas of Cremona, Brescia and Bergamo was fought for between Venetian and Milanese forces. The venetians having decisively beaten the Milanese took East-Lombard lands and held them from 1431 to ~1800.
So Thomas had already left the venetians much earlier.

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## Sile

there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy

http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Resu...rthPlace=Italy

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## Huracan

Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research.  :Grin: 

Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin _fundere_, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:

1. From the actual comune's website:


*Dati storici*

Il comune unisce due centri di antica fondazione: soprattutto Fondra dove erano miniere di ferro, pirite, rame e metalli argentiferi. Del resto l'etimologia di Fondra sembra convalidare l'originaria esistenza delle fonderie che lavoravano i minerali estratti. Si ha notizia che nel '600 l'abilità dei valligiani era conosciuta ed apprezzata fuori provincia e all'estero, dove molti emigravano stagionalmente uniti in gruppi familiari: Paganoni, Michetti, Vitali, Scuri, ... E questo nonostante le minacce di Venezia, che per ragioni strategiche ostacolava l'emigrazione delle maestranze qualificate fuori dal suo territorio. Le contrade di Pusdosso, Comelli, Foppa e Forcella, che nelle decorazioni affrescate degli intonaci documentano il fastigio di un passato fiorente, erano allineate sulla "Via del Ferro", ancora leggibile in diversi tratti per l'ampiezza del tracciato e la regolare connessione dell'acciottolato.

*Ritrovamenti archeologici*

Nella primavera del 1999, durante i lavori di restauro della chiesa parrocchiale di Trabuchello sono state rinvenute una necropoli altomedioevale e una fortificazione civile di epoca tardo romana.
Gli scavi archeologici hanno portato alla luce nella navata centrale sei tombe, di cui una molto piccola, di forma antropoide, cioè con restringimento in corrispondenza della testa e degli arti inferiori .
Le tombe litiche sono delimitate da pietre poste di taglio e con la copertura in lastre di pietra locale.
Altri tre scheletri, probabilmente risalenti al XVII secolo, in cassa lignea e una cripta con funzione di ossario sono stati ritrovati ai piedi del presbiterio.
Al centro della chiesa è inoltre emersa anche una struttura muraria dalla larghezza di un metro collocabile tra il tardoantico e l’alto medioevo.
Dovrebbe trattarsi dei resti di un insediamento civile,forse una torre di guardia a forma rettangolare o comunque di una piccola fortificazione.
A supportare tale tesi sarebbe anche la posizione strategica del luogo dove sorge la chiesa , un dosso che domina un tratto di valle.
L’importanza dei ritrovamenti archeologici è notevole: conferma le ipotesi che l’Alta Valle Brembana fosse abitata fin dall’alto medioevo



2. From the Bergamo Province site:
Notizie Storiche di Isola di Fondra
Le alterne vicende della Valle Brembana investirono anche la Valfondra che sembra aver subito la dominazione di Etruschi, Romani e le successive invasioni barbariche. Con ogni probabilita', anticamente era abitata da popolazioni dedite alla pastorizia e all'attivita' mineraria. Solo del periodo dopo il 1000 si hanno notizie storiche documentate. Un atto del 1148 dice: "Sizio e Aspello di Fondra furono investiti dal Vescovo Gerardo di ogni diritto in Valle di Fondra, nel monte Scanicola fino a Branzi e valle del Leffo fino all'Arete e per la valle Sasso fino al fiume Brembo". Verso la fine dell'XI secolo infatti il Vescovo di Bergamo esercitava diritti feudali in quasi tutta la Valfondra. Lo statuto di Bergamo del 1331 fa riferimento all'accorpamento dei Comuni di Branzi, Valleve, Cambrembo, Foppolo e Carona con Fondra. Dopo il periodo tumultuoso delle Signorie, nel 1428 la Valle passa sotto la Repubblica Veneta. Nella relazione che il capitano Giovanni da Lezze invio' al Senato si legge: "La Valfondra e' una valle in mezzo ai monti e attraversata dal Brembo........ Le terre e le contrade sono divise in 3 parrocchie: S.Giovanni, S.Bartolomeo e S.Lorenzo. A quest'ultima appartengono Fondra, Soprafondra, Trabuchello, Forcella, Foppa, Via Piana, Cornelli e Posaldosso (Pusdosso). Esistono forni e fucine per la lavorazione del ferro estratto nelle miniere. Il ferro viene comodamente lavorato grazie alla presenza dell'acqua del fiume Brembo che peraltro viene usata per far funzionare mulini, peste del grano e segherie......." Con il tratto di Campoformio (1797) va a far parte della Repubblica Cisalpina. Il regime napoleonico porto' un certo risveglio nazionale e il riordino dell'amministrazione, della giustizia e della legislazione. Successivamente il Congresso di Vienna segno' il passaggio della Lombardia all'Austria. La Valfondra divenne parte del distretto di Piazza Brembana. Infine nel 1859, con la seconda guerra d'indipendenza, entro' a far parte del Regno d'Italia e ne segui' le vicende.

Antiche vie di comunicazione
Anticamente la strada di collegamento della Valfondra (un ramo della Via del Ferro) con la Piana di Lenna e con la via Mercatorum, era una mulattiera che saliva dall'attuale Lago di Moio fino a Bordogna. Qui, in frazione Forcella, superava il passo per poi transitare nel centro di Fondra in riva sinistra e scavalcare il Brembo alcune centinaia di metri a monte dell'abitato su una passerella che nel 1715 venne sostituita da un manufatto di pietra, in stile romano , chiamato il Ponte dei Canali. La strada poi proseguiva per Trabuchello e per tutti gli altri centri della Valfondra e si collegava con quegli itinerari che attraverso i passi delle Orobie (Tartano, Venina e Publino) portavano in Valtellina. Nel 1834, ad opera degli austriaci venne costruita una carreggiabile tra Lenna e Branzi che correva sulla destra orografica della valle. La realizzazione della nuova strada e la costruzione di un ponte nel centro di Fondra (1805) portarono all'abbandono del Ponte dei Canali che fu presto soggetto a degrado. Nel 1998 il ponte e' stato restaurato con il ripristino delle spallette.

Le Miniere
L'attivita' mineraria fu per molti secoli una tra le principali risorse economiche di Fondra, come ne attesta *il nome che deriva dal latino "fundere"*. L'escavazione del rame e del ferro si reputa sia iniziata in tempi antichissimi. Che in epoca romana fossero praticamente cava di rame o di calcopirite, un minerale di rame, nella terra bergamasca lo attestano Plinio il Vecchio, e il minerologo Giorgio Agricola. Che alcune piccole miniere si trovassero nel territorio di Fondra, lo scrive il Mairone da Ponte: "Quivi e' dove ammirasi grandi antiche e abbondanti escavazioni e grandi artificiali spaccature di montagna. Esse vanno attribuite a lavori praticativi al tempo che la patria apparteneva al dominio romano ". Durante la dominazione veneta Fondra era sicuramente un centro minerario importante con diverse miniere di ferro e gli "assali" (barre di ferro), informa il Lezze, venivano vendute a Genova, Milano e Bergamo. Nelle miniere si lavorava da ottobre a maggio perche' d'estate l'eccessiva umidita' e le acque che coprivano il fondo rendevano impossibile la presenza dei minatori. E' certo che nel 1600 a Fondra erano attive 17 miniere, delle quali 3 di piombo e 14 di ferro, mentre Trabuchello contava 2 minieredi ferro. All'inizionel '700 l'industria mineraria entro' in crisi, specialmente nelle vallate Oltre la Goggia, anche a causa dei particolari oneri fiscali a cui era soggetta e della mancanza di legname per alimentare i forni. Nel 1742 risultavano concesse sul nostro teritorio 4 miniere di ferro a Trabuchello e 5 a Fondra, ma il vicario delle miniere confessava di non saper quali fossero funzionanti e quali abbandonate. In particolare nel '700 e nei primi decenni del 1800 il ferro che veniva estratto era lavorato in piccole officine lungo il Brembo per la produzione dei chiodi.


A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)

On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?

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## Huracan

I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)

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## Sile

> Wow! Thank you very much, Siles! This will help a lot in my family research. 
> 
> Also, when I first researched Fondra when I got into genealogy years ago, I found that the name of the hamlet comes from the Latin _fundere_, referring to the historical mining and foundry-working of the area. Below is what two sites can tell me about the history of Fondra:
> 
> A Venetian origin (subsequently emigrating from Venice or Genoa) for Fundora and my earliest paternal family is consistent with the historical Italian immigration to Cuba. The first Italians came to Cuba with the Spanish conquistadores after Columbus discovered it in 1492. Most were missionaries and the rest were soldiers of fortune. It can be assumed that most of these Italians were Genoese due to Columbus being Genoese and their favorable position with the Spaniards (especially since in 1528 its new constitution made it a satellite of the Spanish Empire). Later, in 1605, shipwrecked Italian sailors (Genoese and Venetian) founded Mantua, Cuba on the far west side of the island (Pinar del Rio Province) - interestingly, there are localities in this area named Fundora, including a known tobacco farm owned by a Fundora family in Dimas, not too far away from Mantua, that was bought in 1958 and made the basis for the U.S. Taino Cigar company. The only other Italian immigration movements occurred in the mid-1850s, which is too late in terms of my family records. Another possible route is from the Canary Islands. Conquistador Alonso Fernández de Lugo "oversaw extension immigration to Tenerife and La Palma during a short period from the late 1490s to the 1520s from mainland Europe, and immigrants included Castilians, Portuguese, Italians, Catalans, Basques, and Flemings. At subsequent judicial enquiries, Fernández de Lugo was accused of favoring Genoese and Portuguese immigrants over Castilians." (wiki)
> 
> On another note, does this mean that, due to the distribution of L446, the French-Catalán origin for Fundora is less likely?


most likely Genoese, as they became close to castilian Spain after losing their East med. empire after the 5th Venetian war and the ottoman take over in 1473 of the Genoese black sea holding of caffa ( kaffa, Crimea). The Genoese basically became the bankers of the Castilian empire as Catalans and Basques ( who where the best seafarers apart form the Portuguese in Iberia) where very much prevented from going to the new world by the Castilian Cortes.

Your ancestor might have been Venetian, but likelyhood is that they would have gone to Genoa for adventure.

and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T


If your family was in a hamlet/borough ( Borgo) then they would have been artisans of some sort and paid relatively well by the noble who ran that Borgo. This Venetian Noble would have on sold his goods to the Venetian Guilds , who sold the goods to the foreign buyers in the auction houses. no Noble was to be involved in any guild for punishment of death.

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## Sile

> I have also been wondering, what are origins of L446? If you know of them. Would it be associated with remnants of Neolithic settlers coming into Europe or would have it been introduced from the Balkans as the Indo-Europeans (R1b) nestled there for a long time and then swept westward, possibly bringing with them a minority of Neolithic lineages with T among them? (The latter idea was inspired by the "Genetic Histories" articles on this site)


I see a south caucasus, caspian sea ( south and east side) as the origin of L446. But L446 entered Europe very early, before R group. They most likely came with G . The alps has a high % of T ( and L ).

----------


## Sile

> there are 9 Fondra people in town called Ormelle, Veneto, in italy
> 
> http://www.mundia.com/it/Search/Resu...rthPlace=Italy



I have no Fondra surname in all the veneto, birth, death and Marriages registrars from 1800 to 1820 ..........but at this time East lombardy was under a different zone of french rule. ( I have no access to that ).........but once Austria took over Veneto and Lombardy in 1820, they realigned the borders to what we currently have in north Italy today.
So East lombardy went to Lombardy and the friuli border was moved westward to the Livenza river. So these Fondra people in Ormelle Veneto could have moved after 1820.

Ormelle is basically eastern Veneto near Oderzo.

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## Huracan

> ...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...


I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):
Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)Germany (Surname: Rauch)Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)
Predicted L131+:
Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)Sicily, Italy (?)Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)
Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):
KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)VA, USA (Surname: Powell)Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)NC, USA (Surname: Knox)

I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

----------


## Sile

This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos. 

Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio

----------


## Huracan

Also, I had assumed that Fondera was a non-Catalán surname because it means "barkeeper" or "innkeeper" in Castilian (Spanish). Joseph Fondera could have easily been a Castilian whose name was recorded differently and had migrated to Cataluña in the 1670s and 80s.

----------


## Huracan

> This, Pinar del Rio Province, means - Canal of fish fins.
> Rio is a boatable canal/river, if it was unboatable it would be a Fos. 
> 
> Unsure if the Genoese used the word Rio


At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as _Nuevas Filipinas_ or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed _Pinar del Río_ which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.

However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.

----------


## Sile

> At the time that these Genoese (called Ligurian by one source) and Venetian sailors would have shipwrecked on the western coast of Cuba (1605), the province was referred to as _Nuevas Filipinas_ or "New Philippines" due to the transfer and connection with the tobacco plantations in the Philippines and the huge influx of Filipinos, both caused by the Manila Galleons (they sailed every year or twice a year between Manila to Acapulco from 1565-1815). It was in 1774 that the province was renamed _Pinar del Río_ which translates literally into "pinewood of the river", referring to the pine forest found along the River Guamá.
> 
> However, in regards to Mantua, its founding by shipwrecked Italian sailors (who landed at the coastal location known as los Arroyos de Mantua) who wandered inland and created a settlement is an oral tradition passed down through the generations by the townspeople. I recently looked up sources about the subject and one confirmed that, around that time, the Pope had stated in a document regarding an Italian ship, either named Mantua or had some relation with Mantua in Lombardy, being confused for pirates by the English and being pursued until it crashed into the coral reefs. Another source suggests the possibility that the ship was ordered into a secret expedition to the New World by Duke Vincenzo I Gonzago of Mantua. Either way, the settlement became an official town in 1716 under the name of Guane del Norte and later came to be officially called Mantua. Currently, Italian surnames, such as Ferrari, Pitaluga, and Fiorenzana, are found there. Also, a source noted the lack of Italian surnames recorded in Mantua during the Cuban revolution by General Maceo, but it was because he was received by the Spaniard population of the town, who were more well-off, while those of Italian descent (the fishermen and farmers) were not documented.


yes 
Pin = Pine

But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect

The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.

----------


## Huracan

_ Originally Posted by Sile 
...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...

_

I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.

Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)

Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):

Shchedrin, Belarus (Surname: Epstein)Bushtyno, Zakarpats’ka oblast, Ukraine (Surname: Lebovics)Harran, Turkey (Surname: Terakh)Różan, Poland (Surname: Jezernicki)Germany (Surname: Rauch)Radóc, Romania (Surname: György)Valenciennes, France (Surname: Rapalje)Guano Canton, Ecuador (Surname: Guerra)Van Province, Turkey (Surname: Ardzrooni [Armenian])Tibeni, Romania (Surname: Gyorgy [Transylvania])Bacău, Romania (Surname: Lazar)Musano, Treviso, Veneto, Italy (Surname: Pretotto)Trowbridge, Wiltshire, UK (Surname: Corson)Dipignano Cosenza, Italy (Surname: Laccino)Alsace, France (Surname: Miller)Tolkmicko, Poland (Surname: Hohenfeld)Ciripcau, Moldova (Surname: Karapcivsky)Schmerikon, Sankt Gallen, Schweiz (Switzerland) (Surname: Blarer)Morshansk, Tambov Oblast, Russia (Surname: Vavilov)Alsace-Lorraine, France (Surname: Dufford)Mordovia, Russia (Surname: Bulgakov)

Predicted L131+:

Burscheid, Germany (Surname: Erlenkoetter)Sicily, Italy (?)Tomnavoulin, Ballindalloch, Banffshire, (Scotland), UK (Surname: McDonald)Palermo, Italy (Surname: Arcuni)Shtip, Macedonia (Surname: Todorov)Madrid (or Mallorca), Spain (Surname: Madrigal)Nassau, Bahamas (Surname: Major)County Cork, Ireland (Surname: Bernard)Arboleas, Spain (Surname: de Veraguas)Matute, Spain (Surname: Lopez)

Locations where T-L446+ (as per FTDNA):

KY/TX, USA (Surname: Powell)VA (UK), USA (Surname: Sizemore)VA, USA (Surname: Powell)Hamburg, Germany (Surname: Golditz)Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (Surname: Kile)Kuwait (Surname: *? Abdullah Kuwait)FL/NY, USA (Surname: Mason)Strabane, County Tryone (Northern Ireland), UK (Surname: Knox)NC, USA (Surname: Knox)


I also continue to thank you on all the help and information you are providing me with.

----------


## Huracan

> yes 
> Pin = Pine
> 
> But pinewood in venetian is Pes'ara...........Pinar must be genoese or piemontese dialect
> 
> The Gonzagas of Mantua ( montova ) married into the french aristocracy ( the house of Nevers and also the house of Lorraine )..........this can be another path for you.


Oh wow, I will take that into consideration.

----------


## Sile

> _ Originally Posted by Sile 
> ...and Yes, there is a big chance that french and catalan play a role in L446, there are about 5% of T in Auvergne and another 5% in Alsace. I assume catalan should have it especially since Ibiza has a lot of T...
> 
> _
> 
> I personally thought that a French/Catalán origin was less likely because L446 was not found in Iberia and was restricted to NW Europe (mostly the British Isles, the Low Countries, Germany, Scandinavia), the Eastern Alps, and parts of Eastern Europe (Romania and Poland), although you did mention a small presence in La Rochelle, France. In fact, the French/Catalán origin was one I personally suggested due to an educated guess based on: the etymological similarity of Fondera (and its misspelling in church records as Fundera), the historic migration of Catalanes to Cuba, and the fact that the earliest individual bearing the Fondera surname was named Joseph Fondera (b. ca. 1660s) - the name Joseph in Catalán would have been spelled as Josep, as are his grandchildren in the records, and the nearest place that spelled it that way was France and the French surname Fonder (found in France and the Ardennes region of Belgium) seemed as a logical precursor to Fondera. There is a possibility that I may be completely wrong because I based this on a slew of assumptions.
> 
> Here is a T-subclade map I found on the Internet that may be of use for interpretation and analysis: eng.molgen(dot)org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1299 (I couldn't post the image directly, it was too large of a file)
> 
> ...


I have a ancestor from 1745 from Morfumo Veneto with the surname Forner ..............which is similar

of the list you gave
Rapalje is not his true name, Guerra was originally Goera ( same meaning of war), Corson, ancestors are from Sondrio Lombardia and name originates from Corse which means corsican, Blarer is from the 12th century, Hohenfeld is a Prussian, 

none of the L131 list are L446

Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
Kile not related to me.
Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
Knox could have some ties.

If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/all-snp-maps/
select SNP above and see the L446 in the world....info is gathered from all testing sites..BUT only 67 markers and above ( seems they want to ensure accuracy)

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## Huracan

> Powell not related to me , although Thomas Powell is close in marker with me.
> Sizemore could be ...........horsetrader and slaver from scotland.
> Kile not related to me.
> Kuwait person originated from northern syria.
> Mason unsure, but same spelling and surname is in northern Italy.
> Knox could have some ties.
> 
> If you think you have some alpine ties, then write to Chris in the Ftdna ALPGEN project and he maybe can check his data....he is very helpful
> 
> ...


How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them) 

And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded. 

I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?

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## Sile

> How did you discover your relation to them? Is this an option that FTDNA provides? (I wouldn't know, I have yet to actually test myself with them) 
> 
> And yes, I also joined the AlpGen project and contacted Chris. Yet both Gareth (from the T project) and Chris have not responded. 
> 
> I checked out the snp map for L446 on semargl, very interesting. How did T (L131, P322, P328, and L446) get that far north? Also, what are your opinions on the origins/locations of T and it's subclades? Would L446 be a marker characteristic of Neolithic peoples entering Central and Northern Europe via the Danube?


I wrote to them. In ftdna there are for each individual, an email icon, a note icon and 2 others

Chris will reply , earlier than gareth....sometimes you need to email other contact instead of Gareth....I think other guy is Finnish

yes I presume the danube is one avenue, there are also T in estonia, so up the dniepr river and other could be a view. I believe T was part of the hunter gatherers with some farming of late. Some believe T was hunter and herders. 

Since you are positive L446 , you will be negative P322 and P328 ...................nat geo2 does not give ftdna any negative markers

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## Huracan

But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (*L446*) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.

I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.

----------


## Huracan

Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)

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## Sile

> But I wonder if it's possible that T came along with the Indo-Europeans (i.e. Celts, Italics, etc.) as they expanded through Eastern Europe and the Balkans (being "picked up" and carried along with their migrations from the steppes and Black Sea areas)...Or if the T of the Alpine area (*L446*) was displaced into the mountains due to the invading Indo-Europeans (namely Celts and Gauls), as seen in other peoples of the area, namely regarding one of the competing theories for the origins of the Rhaetians of northern Italy and Switzerland.
> 
> I am trying to wrap my head around all the numerous theories. Thanks.


Celts came down into the alps from central germany, Gauls came from swiss and french areas ( from the west ). Raetians are stated as speaking a branch of west-semetic language , akkadian ( assyrian ).......!?


Natgeno2 states basal origins of L131 as Caucasus and south germany.............they state a migrational link ( path)

eupedia states
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

I have no issue with your theories............

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## Sile

> Has there ever been a study that calculates the ages of the haplotypes of the other subclades of T? Like the TMRCA of P322/P327/P328 and L466? I know Mendez, et al. (http://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/MendezHumBiol2011.pdf) computes them for P326, M184, M70, P77, and L131. Or what about the other haplotypes in Europe, to understand when they actually entered the continent (i.e. early Neolithic farmers, pastoralists, or hunter-herders; Bronze Age migrants; classical times [Romans, Greeks, Arabs, etc.]; Jewish Diaspora, etc.)


I can only imagine L446 to have always appeared as 1 part of the L131 branch but was never "discovered"...........Its like the new Y tests being done.....new SNPs are being found in certain Haplotypes that have always been there.

----------


## Samaniego

I like to share informs
My ancestors are both from de Baque Country

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## Huracan

@Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.

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## Sile

> @Samaniego oh wow! You will be the first person from Spain that has T-L131 that I have into contact with! I too have Basque ancestry, but on my paternal grandmother's side. My earliest paternal ancestor that I can get a hold of is my four-times great grandfather, Luis Fundora Miranda, born about 1809 in Cuba. We still don't know the exact origin of our surname (Funddora) and we suspect his ancestors may have come from Spain or Europe in general. I have L446 which is downstream of L131 and is not found at all in Spain.


you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.

----------


## Sile

@fundora

My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984

----------


## Sile

After some discussion with project managers, 
due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar). 
But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.

I do not know what to make of this

----------


## Huracan

Wait, how did you know it was one of the 5-sub-branches? Where did you find this information? I would greatly appreciate this, Sile.

I didn't think it was Spanish. All I can guess at right now was that the *parents* of my earliest known paternal ancestor were Spanish, as most Cubans are. I have yet to pinpoint my exact origins. Thanks for your input! :)

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## Huracan

Oh, did you recently test with Nat Geno? I can't remember if you said in a past post, it's been about a month or more since I have been active on Eupedia.

And this is interesting information!!!  :Laughing:

----------


## Huracan

> After some discussion with project managers, 
> due to the fact I do not have T-M184 as part of my ydna marker, but have the other one, T-M272, then it was said I am not via the M-184 mesopotamian line but the North Caucasus line ( only basal M272 found currently is stated as an Avar). 
> But then the 6th century Avars is too late for me, but still, it must be someone from this area in the bronze-age ( or before) that moved to the alps.
> 
> I do not know what to make of this


I too am only positive for M272.

----------


## Huracan

> @fundora
> 
> My natgen 2 marker is CTS8862 , which is another step lower in the branch than your CTS11984


Oh turns out I am also CTS8862+, I would greatly appreciate the information and source regarding these sub-branches! I am getting excited!  :Laughing:

----------


## Huracan

> you stated you have T-CTS11984 which is downstream from L446 ( Its one of the 5 sub-branches of L446 ). Your branch is Tyrolese/Trentino/Grison group..........I do not know why you are thinking its Spanish. You ancestors most likely left for the new world in the mid 18th Century.


Y-DNA T Tree 2014.jpg
Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.

----------


## Sile

> Y-DNA T Tree 2014.jpg
> Sile, I recently found the 5 sub-branches you were talking about. This is interesting stuff! Currently on ysearch trying to investigate the genetic distance between me and other old T1b (L131+) members from FTDNA.


As I mentioned in other T thread ...............ftdna are wrong in SNP - Pages00113 and L25

Pager00113 is in the L group
http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2...hrY%3Adatabase

and L25 is in the J group

Pages00011 is correct in that it is T group .................but since you are CTS8862 , you will be negative for Pages00011 , *UNLESS ftdna tree in that area is in error*

----------


## Huracan

And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from *(di) Fondora*, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)

----------


## Sile

> And @Sile, interesting news! Fundora instead may come from *(di) Fondora*, a surname that seems to emanate from Lucca in Tuscany and may have prior connections in Emilia-Romagna (I think Sorbano [now Sarsina or part of it] but I have yet to interpret the translations in full yet). The Fondoras were bankers, as was the prime business of Lucca, and had connections with nearby Genoa (Lucca is very close to Genoa/Liguria). They would have spread to Genoa or simply migrated in association with them to the Canary Islands in the 15th and 16th centuries and from there to Cuba. This makes my CTS8862 marker more in line with an Alpine origin of Northern Italy. Still working out everything and getting in touch with more Fundoras but this seems to be a promising theory regarding my ancestry. :)


I know Lucca as I have an aunt from my maternal side living there.

The genoese where the merchant bankers of the Crown of Spain during the renaissance. You should check spanish archives for genoese bankers in employment for Spain



only cts8862 in crimson colour which are also L446............the pink is only L446


In my opinion CTS8862 will be moved to a minor SNP marker and we will get *L1322* or *Pages00011* once its available for testing . These will be the only 2 lines coming out from L446+

----------


## FrankN

> Also, here is what I found from FTDNA based on those individuals who tested for L131 and L446:
> Locations where T-L131+ (as per FTDNA):
> Germany (Surname: Rauch)


The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:

Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc.
Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:

9ddb27ce1a570b573eb47a5bd66e2f9c_de.jpg
Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).

Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.

----------


## Sile

> The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:
> 
> Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc. 
> Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:
> 
> 9ddb27ce1a570b573eb47a5bd66e2f9c_de.jpg
> Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).
> 
> Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.


roca, rocca = tower ............as in a rook in chess
Rocca translated into English = fortress, rock, stronghold 

rocce = rocks in Italian............sassi = stones

thanks for the link...Rauch a person who has minor links with me.........similar to the northern German named Kile

What does the map state?

I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden

----------


## Huracan

Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from. 

So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?

----------


## Sile

> Sile, a recent discussion with a man, whose wife's four-times great grandmother was named Flora Fundora Y Abad, revealed that she was born in the Canary Islands and her family was from there and have been there for as long as anyone can remember but had originated in Spain. The wife's grandmother, Flora's granddaughter, said after asking around in Spain that Fundora means something along the lines of founder or foundry but do not know where exactly in Spain it comes from. 
> 
> So now my question is, how would L446, let alone CTS11984 and CTS8862. would have made it into Spain?


I do not know about Spain as i cannot find any names similar to yours there, but in Italy

Antica famiglia lucchese, detta nel secolo XIII de' Bujoli, e chiamata poi dei *Fondora* dai luoghi di loro proprietà. Ebbe numerosi Anziani nella Repubblica dal secolo XIV al XVIII, e nel secolo XV alcuni maestri della zecca di Lucca. Il più noto della famiglia è Lazzaro de Fondora, dovizioso mercante, che fece erigere nel 1309 la chiesa di S. Maria e S. Francesco nei borghi della città, donandola ai Frati_ .... continua_

From Lucca italy above, year from 1309..............Zecca = mint , where money is made

or

Le memorie di questa famiglia ricordano come capo stipite delle due linee, milanese, cioè, e veneto-dalmata, un Tommaso *de Fondra* che da Sigismondo imperatore con diploma datato a Milano, fu nel 1413 creato barone dell'impero. Si stabilì in Venezia sul principio del secolo XVI, ove un Lorenzo fu dal doge Pasquale Cicogna fatto conte palatino. Il primo di questa casa che si fermasse in Sebenico fu un Ferdinando cancelliere nel_ .... continua

Origin Milanese with links with Veneto and Dalmatia .

If you think they are bankers, check Spain archives
_

----------


## FrankN

> What does the map state?
> 
> I do have some genetic links with a town called Ravenstein .....IIRC the person who told me says its in Baden-Baden


The map displays the relative frequency of the name among all telephone book entries. Geographical base unit is the county (German: Landkreis). The frequencies here are given as x per million (Rauch is a relatively rare name), the colouring goes from 10-155 occurrences per million (light orange) to more than 620 occurrences per million (dark red).

Ravenstein is in Baden-Würtemberg, approx. 90 km NNE of Stuttgart and 70 km SSW of Wurzburg. On the Rauch name frequency map, you will note a dark red county in south-central Germany (Main-Spessart County), surrounded by a few darker orange counties. If you go to the one directly south, and a bit beyond its SW corner, that's where Ravenstein is located.

----------


## Huracan

It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.

I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?

Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.

Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).

Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).

----------


## Sile

> It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.
> 
> I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?
> 
> Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.
> 
> Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).
> 
> Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).


Do you have a match with surname Dalessio, or D'Alessio or Lessio or Less......he is CTS8862 states he was from south Italy ( but surname does not indicate this) and being south italy was/must used by Spanish kings in overseas duties.
his ysearch is YSU4S

I am 5 steps from you with individuals Knox, Ahmann ( Prussia), Parker ( England) Mueller ( Bavaria) Foester ( salzburg Austria). I wrote to knox and they have no record before 1500 for their T person called MASON .
Mason appears 800 times in north Italy and is prounanced ( MAh ...zon ) , There are also hundreds of a Mazzon surname in north italy

----------


## Huracan

Hold on, these are the Y-STR results from Nat Geno 1.0 (which my father did):

DYS 393: 13
DYS19: 12
DYS 391: 10
DYS 439: 11
DYS 389i: 14
DYS 389ii: 16
DYS388: 12
DYS390: 22
DYS426: 11
DYS385a: 13
DYS385b: 16
DYS392: 13

When I was inputting them for the first time, I incorrectly converted DYS389i and DYS389ii using the Oxford Ancestors conversion because I couldn't find the original values in the drop-down menu. Now, going back, I realized that that didn't make any sense. I look on FTDNA and they said this:

_"The second way is to show the result only for the second section that is tested by subtracting the DYS389-1 score from the original second test score. This is how the Genographic Project 1.0 test displayed the result. Some older publications also used this method._
_As long as you know which method is being used, you can convert between the two. For example, you add together the two DYS389 values from the Genographic Project to get the DYS389-2 value for Family Tree DNA. To convert to m+n,p+q format, subtract the DYS389-1 value from DYS389-2 from your Family Tree DNA results. This is the DYS389-2 value for the Genographic Project and elsewhere."_

I therefore added 14 and 16 to get 30, the FTDNA value for DYS389ii compatible with Ysearch.

Upon doing this, I got these results: (Note that the results are now overwhelming)



Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With
Markers Compared
Genetic Distance


EH8QF

Frush
Maryland, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0


HD93F

Curtiss
Stratford, Fairfield,, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
0


J96SK

Frush
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
0


X86AQ

*Fundora*
*San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba* 
*T1b** 
*Genographic Project* 
*12*
*0*


Z4JWV

Foster
Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1


SBMFF

Micchia
Casignana, Reggio Calabria, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1


SCYYM

Carvalho
Campos de Cunha - São Paulo, Brazil
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
1


TWUU6

Vecchio
Italy
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1


FKKA3
Show
Atwell
Northumberland, England
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1


4BCTS

Bernard
Ireland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
1


7JAQZ

Bauer
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
1


7MYJH

Riva
Cagliari, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2


7S3PX

Bulgakov
Mordvinien, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


7W8GR

Martin
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


84P6X

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2


85S98

Knox
Strabane, Northern Ireland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


8P6P5

Groen
Netherlands
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


8TTV3

McKinley
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


9FQV7

Tulupov
Kursk region, Russia
T1*
Family Tree DNA
12
2


9U5RZ

Luddington
New York, USA
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


9Z3Q4

Knox
Pitt County, North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


B7EPU
Show
Ahmann
Lienen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


BMV54

Epstein
Bobruisk, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


C2URV

Vavilov
Morshansk, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


4J56P

Anonymous Brazilian
Brazil
T1b*
Other - SMGF
12
2


5MVDN

Hill
Darlington, South Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


75W9X

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


27V79

Fakes
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


2WQH4

Hill
Tennessee, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


3FURP

Lazar
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


FMW5U
Show
Blarer C/o Phytax Gmbh
St. Gallen, Switzerland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


FZ3K4

Dean
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


G8NSN

Guerra
Ecuador
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


GFXYD

Cleveland, Cleaveland
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


GNY7X

Hohenfeld
Tolkmicko, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


GH8YR

Atwell
Virginia, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


DFEA3
Show
Liss
Kartuz Bereza, Belarus
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


DG4TT

Milligan
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


HVVYW

Madrigal
madrid, Spain
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


JRWTZ

Lippi
Arezzo, Italy
Unknown
Other - SMGF
12
2


K3JXB

Carson
Unknown
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


nrwwc

Mason
West Palm Beach Florida, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


NUUFC

Espinoza
Callao, Peru
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


P9K39

Murphy
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


PC6W3

Velasco
Puerto Rico
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


PTD7V

Carver
Krzepice, Poland
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


T8WMY

Russo
Camposano, Province of Naples, Italy
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


SJ4CJ
Show
Hill
Unknown
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


SYJCU

Fauth
Rastatt, Alsace/Elsaß, Germany
Unknown
Family Tree DNA
12
2


R3MRH

Black
Ireland
Unknown
Genographic Project
12
2


RK58S

Hill
Packsville (Paxville), USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


YUQVH

Teaford
Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


XYSQ3

Alvarado
Spain
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


Y4B44

Mitchell
North Carolina, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


WAERQ

Owens
Henry County, USA
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


WJRFG

Pivovitz
Tykocin, Poland
T1 (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2






Can you assist me in understanding these? I only showed up to the 2 steps because the list was _extremely_​ long

----------


## Huracan

This was just using the genetic matches option for all haplogroups. This is what I got when I tested within our haplogroup (the most exact I could get was T1b):


Compare
User ID
Pedigree
Last Name
Origin
Haplogroup
Tested With
Markers Compared
Genetic Distance


X86AQ

*Fundora*
*San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba*
*T1b**
*Genographic Project*
*12*
*0*


4J56P

Anonymous Brazilian
Brazil
T1b*
Other - SMGF
12
2


YUQVH

Teaford
Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


7S3PX

Bulgakov
Mordvinien, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


C2URV

Vavilov
Morshansk, Russia
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


XYSQ3

Alvarado
Spain
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


FMW5U
Show
Blarer C/o Phytax Gmbh
St. Gallen, Switzerland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


85S98

Knox
Strabane, Northern Ireland
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


NUUFC

Espinoza
Callao, Peru
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
2


U7KWS

Gyorgy
Istensegits, Bukowina, Transylvania, Romania
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3


SBN6R

Rappleye
Unknown
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3


X43UQ

pretotto
Treviso, Italy
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3


3D7EU

Wingate
London, England
T1b*
Oxford Ancestors
12
3


GCX5C

La Rochelle
La Rochelle, France
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
3


23U9K

Parker
England
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
4


3QECG

Hulpiau
Belgium
T1b (tested)
Family Tree DNA
12
6

----------


## Sile

> Hold on, these are the Y-STR results from Nat Geno 1.0 (which my father did):
> 
> DYS 393: 13
> DYS19: 12
> DYS 391: 10
> DYS 439: 11
> DYS 389i: 14
> DYS 389ii: 16
> DYS388: 12
> ...


I suggest you do what I did, join this site below, its free ( unless you want to go to extreme searches ), it only covers family trees ( not genetics), but it will lead to genetics via other sites IF you establish your surnames 
http://en.geneanet.org/

I joined, 6 months ago, I got fortnightly emails to see If I match surnames which where on my tree and also in others trees and have just satrted matching people who are in my tree with the same people who are on genetic sites

just got this about a month ago (see below) the gaspar guy is my line



follow what I did , it will remove the clutter of all these names so you may focus on your true line.

BTW on your list
Russo is a Greek jew from the aegean islands
Lippi and Carson are from Lombardia
Hohenfeld is from old east-prussia
Hill is scottish , settled in southCarolina about 1700

I do not know the rest apart from knox and Mason

----------


## Sile

> The name "Rauch" may have several etymological origins:
> 
> Rauch = smoke, fume, indicating a profession that is associated with producing fume, e.g. metallurgy.from "rau" = raw, rough. Thought to have designated people with "raw", i.e. scrubby appearance, or with rough manners.possible Germanisation of ital. roca, fr. roche (rock), etc. 
> Here is the name distribution map according to German telephone register entries:
> 
> Attachment 6447
> Source: http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Hauptseite (a very useful site if you want to research on German genealogy, and can comprehend a bit of German).
> 
> Don't know if it really helps, but I thought I post it anyway, if only as food for thought.


Do you know where the german name SCHALES comes from?

----------


## Sile

> It's been a while since I last posted here but I have recently found out some interesting information.
> 
> I found out that my father's Y-STRs were tested and using the values for his 12 Y-STRs, I inputted them into Ysearch. I did not get back any 0 step matches or even 1 step matches. The closest genetic matches I got were two men: one with the surname Foster (earliest paternal ancestor from Germany) and the other Atwell (earliest paternal ancestor from Northumberland, England). They were 2 steps away from me, which FTDNA and Ysearch denote as "Probably Not Related." They go on to say that "you are unlikely to share a common male ancestor within the genealogical time frame." So does that mean we share a common male ancestor, just really long ago?
> 
> Using the patterns seen in between the generations to the MRCA for 25 and 37 STRs, I calculated that there is a 95% probability that I share a common male ancestor with them some 66 generations ago. I am not sure if the math of the whole system was predictable enough for me to go on to do that but I did it anyways. Afterwards, I then predicted that since the average age men have had children is roughly 20-25 years, that 66 generations ago is between 1,320 to 1,650 years ago (or 364-694 CE). I cannot accurately interpret what this means, for I have a tendency to go down a slippery slope of assumptions.
> 
> Also, the next closest matches (3 steps) were 5 individuals: 4 from the US (Frush, Atwell, Curtiss, Owens) and 1 German (Frush).
> 
> Furthermore, the individuals that have tested CTS8862+ from FTDNA and CTS11984+ were all 5-6 steps away from me (Pretotto, Knox, and Espinoza).



We have now been placed together in ftdna T project.............can you confirm further back for your family line?

other CTS8862 are now Da Lessio ( 15 generic distance from me ), Schales ( ysearch 4MNH3, 1 GD from me ) , 

I also think we have a very good match with the swiss person ( ysearch 7JAQZ, 2 GD from me) from the 13th century, and also the slovene, Mozenic , 2 GD from me ( mozen means coins ( of various values) in venetian ), but I doubt he will go for a further test beyond 12 marker

----------


## Huracan

I just saw! How intriguing! We're exact matches! That was with just 12 Y-STRs, as my Y-DNA 37 has yet to come in.

And unfortunately, no we still cannot go further back then Cuba with our paternal line  :Sad: 

We've been placed together in the Gamma 1-X T-CTS8862 Unmatched on the Haplogroup T Project STR Results page. I have to continue research and will get back to with you.

----------


## Sile

> I just saw! How intriguing! We're exact matches! That was with just 12 Y-STRs, as my Y-DNA 37 has yet to come in.
> 
> And unfortunately, no we still cannot go further back then Cuba with our paternal line 
> 
> We've been placed together in the Gamma 1-X T-CTS8862 Unmatched on the Haplogroup T Project STR Results page. I have to continue research and will get back to with you.


found this line from Lombardy Italy...........they sent a family line to the greek islands held by Italy after the 1911-1912 Turco-italian war. 
Do you see any in regards to matches
*FONDRA*

*Display by:*

line (5)

alphabetical order



1.o *Alfonso*2.
o *Eugénia* & *Mario Pierre Isidore SUMMA* _1910-1973_3.
o *Giovanna*4.
o*Innocenzo* & *Teresa VENINI*
o*Ferdinando* _ca 1826-1888_ & *? ?* 
o *Alfredo* _1866-1895_ 
o*Giovanni*_1829-1908_ & *Luisa Ou Luigia BORETTI* _1845-1923_ 
o *Enrico* _1864-_
o*Joachim (Giovacchino)* _1865-1926_ & *Argyro CARIDHIA* 
o *Giovanni*_1894-1894
_o*Luisa* _1895-1921_
o *Elfrida Anna* _1896-_ &1922 *Antonio PREDONZAN* ... 
o *Elena Anna Cristina* _1897-1897_
o*Arturo* _1898-1971_ &1924 *Giovanna PREDONZAN* 
o*Elvira Luisa*
o_Joachim (Giovacchino)_ _1865-1926_ &1918 *Maria PIROLOVOS* 
o *Ettore*_1903-1924_
o*Eugenia*_1905-_ &1925 *Guy FIOROVICH*
o*Giovanni*_1908-_ &1935 *Maria FRAGIACOMO* 
o *Adolfo* _1867-1924_ &1893 *Teresa FILINESI* _1872-_ 5.
o *Teresa


*in cuba
this is the oldest line 1847


genovapete1969
1
FUNDORA


1847 - 1847
San Antonio de Los Banos
Cuba

*o Rosario* 


owner of line is Peter Genova .....city is San Antonio de Los Banos

red print is Fundora or Fondra person

----------


## Sile

99% of all Fondera are french from: 

* Joan FONDERA* Titles: _pagès_

 
Born about 1600 - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCEDeceased
*Spouses and children*Married to Maria BURCH with
 Joseph FONDERA _ca 1630-/1668_ Maria FONDERA _ca 1633-_
_

_
about 1600 :
Birth - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE

20 February 1657 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
Notaire : Montbolo Miquel

son fils Joseph, chirurgien (qui ne réapparait plus ensuite), ses filles Monserrada, Géronima, Anna (qui n'apparaît plus dans les testaments suivants) et Maria épouse Burch (1er mariage)

Sources: relevés de l'association - A.C.G. - Other - moi-même - Other

23 December 1668 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
Notaire : Montbolo Miquel

Ce testament sera remplacé par celui de 1676. Il énonce le nom des 2 premières épouses et par contre attribue à la seconde Boher, Monserrada (Maria) 3 enfants Isabel, Thérèse et Jaume, qui vont ensuite être replacée sous la 3eme épouse Joana."

Sources: relevés de l'association - A.C.G. - Other - moi-même - Other

8 September 1676 :
Will - Millas,66170,Pyrénées-Orientales,Languedoc-Roussillon,FRANCE
notaire : Amill Hieronim
nouveau testament : Joana est sa 3eme épouse et la mère de ses enfants Thérèse, Isabel épouse Cubri, Jaume 14 ans, Géronima épouse de Sylvestre Palegri. (Il y a un hiatus avec le testament de 1668 où Thérèse, Isabel et Jaume sont indiqués enfants de Maria Boher 2eme épouse). Lors des mariages de ces enfants, leurs mères est bien Joana.
Sa 1ere épouse Maria (Burch) était la mère de Maria épouse de Côme Burch, sa seconde épouse Maria ? était la mère de Monserrada épouse de Miquel BOHER

----------


## Huracan

> found this line from Lombardy Italy...........they sent a family line to the greek islands held by Italy after the 1911-1912 Turco-italian war. 
> Do you see any in regards to matches
> *FONDRA*
> 
> *Display by:*
> 
> line (5)
> 
> alphabetical order
> ...


Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.

I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry). 

These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.co...o/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/ape...dora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.

----------


## Huracan

Fondera is a surname that appears in Pyrenees-Orientales, France since the late 1500s and early 1600s. Fundera, its variant, also appears in the same areas. Fondora, another variant, if I remember correctly also goes back to the same time period and area (as per World Vital Records). Most of this information I got from FamilySearch.org. It also appears in records from Gerona since the mid-1600s and into the 1700s. In Barcelona province, it continues to the modern-day.

Thus, a Catalan-French origin seems to be the best option for the origin for Fundora, especially since Fundora is also found in a lot of Latin American countries (i.e. Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Panama, Ecuador, Chile, and Brazil), being distributed by Catalan and Spaniard settlers in the New World.

----------


## Sile

> Unfortunately no I do not see any familiar people or anyone possibly related to me in that Fondra family. Remember, my earliest ancestor that we know was born around 1809 in San Antonio de Rio Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba.
> 
> I contacted Peter not too long ago and his Fundora ancestor is his great-great-great grandmother named Rosario Fundora. Her son, his great-great-grandfather, was born in San Antonio de los Baños in 1847. Comparing temporal data, we may be distantly related. The earliest account of Fundora in Cuba comes from 1773, when Antonio Fundora (b. 1759) enlisted in the Cuban-Spanish Army. He fought against the British in the Anglo-Spanish War in Louisiana and Florida, part of the American Revolutionary War. I also recently found a Santiago Jose Fundora y Cabrera baptized in Bejucal, La Habana from 1770-1780 (his record was found in a general church record entry). 
> 
> These two sites provide information regarding Fundora:
> http://www.xn--apellidosespaa-2nb.co...o/fundora.html -> this one says that Fundora has a Spanish heraldic shield and is common in the Canary Islands
> http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/ape...dora-leon.html -> this one says that there are between 337-358 people in Barcelona Province with the surname Fundora Leon.


thanks

The year 1759 for Antonio makes sense in that the story is no catalan or basque went to the new world via spanish ships due to some type of legality/rules. this was changed in ~1720

whats your plan?

I have registry records from 1689 to now for me..........plus another document from Rovereto from 1610 .............I just need to trace this Gaspar guy from 1545 , again in Val di Cembra Trentino Italy...............we might only be linked via a paternal marriage of sisters long long time ago...or ...?

----------


## Huracan

Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?

I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction. 
Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).

Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.

----------


## Huracan

Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.

----------


## Sile

> Also @Sile, I wish to refresh myself on the possible origins for L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862. I remember you saying and reading elsewhere that M272 (our line) migrated north of the Caspian and it was in the northern Caucasus (Pontic-Caspian steppe) that L131 appeared. Despite the predominant L446 presence in Europe, I see on Family Tree DNA that there are lots of L446+ individuals in Saudi Arabia, meaning that L446 originated in Eurasia, likely the same place as L131. Now CTS11984 and CTS8862 both seem to be only found in the European but could have either appeared also in the north Caucasus or in Europe. Although the age for the T subclades goes back to the Neolithic, I cannot find any source of Neolithic culture/peoples spreading from the Caucasus, into north of the Black Sea, and entering Europe. I may be wrong, but is there a possibility that the northern L131, L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 lineages were dispersed by the Indo-Europeans?
> 
> I know the Indo-Europeans were predominantly haplogroup R (R1a + R1b) but the compelling hypotheses for the origins of the Indo-Europeans seem to point to a Pontic-Caspian steppe/north Caucasus area of origin, the same as L131. Also, the presence of L446, CTS11984, and CTS8862 in the British Isles, which have some of the least Neolithic influence (typical of Northern Europe), can be explained by an introduction via the Celts (supported by the presence of these lineages in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England). Even the presence of L446 sister clade P322/P328 in Scandinavia, Shetland, and Orkney Islands can be attributed to an Indo-European introduction, namely the Germanic peoples (Norse, Vikings, etc.). And when you said that the T-project managers told you that your line came into the Venice area when the Italics came in via the eastern Alpine passes, it appears to support these hypotheses. And when they said that your line also came from the Black Sea area, it also coincides with an Indo-European introduction. 
> Also, even Maciamo suggested that L131 was absorbed by the Indo-Europeans as they spread eastward into Central Asia, owing to its presence in Xinjiang (extreme western China, next to Kazakhstan).
> 
> Therefore, what I see is that L131 and it's European oriented lineages originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe north of the Caucasus. Later or around the same time, they were absorbed and assimilated into the Proto-Indo-European substrate and then migrated along with the Indo-Europeans in their successful expansions into Europe.


The predominate T areas in the middle-east areas today are.......assyrians 16%, armenians 7%, Azeri 9%, lezkins 7%, dagestan 6%, there are far less % in saudi arabia ( except the "saudi nobility" ) ......I was once told the saudi nobility cam south from Persia.

The pontic-caspian area includes the 
this is what Maciano correctly states....*T1a2 has been found as far east as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. This branch probably penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe during the Neolithic (perhaps alongside G2a3b1 and J2b2)* ......T1a2 is L131 line

You also need to remember that T along with L, G and J broke off early from its parent K before K ever thought about forming P which later formed the R group. these "west-asian" TLGJ, could have been the first in europe ...the scouts/hunter gathers/ herders

R dominated europe because they brought along "dynastic" system of concubines , something the hunter gather herders did not have


In regards to 1 project manager states ............"i thought you had slavic, you do not, I thought you had iberic or balkan, you don't ., no african or ashkenazi ?!
the other states alpine ....either east or west alpine

----------


## Sile

> Since we share a genetic distance of 0, but have a different surname (and largely different national ancestries), we likely share a common male ancestor that lived centuries to thousands of years ago.


I was told 0 means not older than 800 years

----------


## Huracan

Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation. 

Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.

----------


## Sile

> Yes, I may have jumped the gun regarding the distribution of T in Europe, especially T-L131. An old Neolithic origin and distribution is the more likely situation. 
> 
> Now, I updated to 37 Y-STRs and we are no longer closely related at all. The closest match I have now is a man from the Azores, with surname Lemas, who is a genetic distance of 4 from me. Otherwise, I have no close matches in any respect. The 25 Y-STRs showed that I was a distance of 1 from Lemas and several Frush/Froshour (German/German-Americans); no individuals with a distance of 0.


in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.

we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world

we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here

*Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447*





*
As an administrator ( not me ) with a study with persons who have tested with Family Tree, DNA Heritage, Ancesrty.com and SMFG, we use the following simple guidelines to apply to all:

37 Marker level:
. A 37/37 match: Very Tightly Related.
. A 36/37 match: Tightly Related. Family Tree states that very few people achieve this close of a match.
. A 35/37 or 34/37 match: Related.
. A 33/37 or 32/37 match: Marginal.
. A 31/37 match and beyond: You are not related and the odds are that you have not shared a common male ancestor with anyone in this group within thousands of years.*


we are in the marginal group

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## Sile

KF

do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )

Da Lessio, north italy 
Fava, North italy
Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
Schales, South Germany
Molzen, Austria
Toigo, North Italy
Cemin, North Italy
Viselli, central Italy
Rossi, North Italy
Higuera, Basque
and Benedetto, south Italy

plus 7 from the british isles ( mostly irish and welsh )

----------


## Huracan

> KF
> 
> do you match any of mine below, some are in ysearch search, most are not. these are surnames and origins ( i have left you out , it did have you as cuba, but in haplo-origins ( ydna ftdna) you are now spain )
> 
> Da Lessio, north italy 
> Fava, North italy
> Mozentic, Slovenia .............stated venetian from name Mozen ( IMO , could be like the austrian below)
> Schales, South Germany
> Molzen, Austria
> ...


I match the following from your list:

12 Y-STRs:
Mozetič (0)
Schales (0) [FTDNA]
Benedetto (0)
Viselli (1)
Higuera (1)
Rossi (1) [FTDNA]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]
Schales (6) [Ysearch]

25 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]
Rossi (6) [Ysearch]

37 Y-STRs:
Schales (6) [Ysearch]

----------


## Huracan

> in the project site where we sit , you need to ignore the fast mutating red DYS ones and check the others , ...the darker the blue the slower the mutation change.
> 
> we miss in DYS447..........you are like 15% of the world, I am 2% of the world
> 
> we then have 5 misses in 37 markers , so we fit here
> 
> *Re: Y Chromosome Marker Details: DYS 447*
> 
> 
> ...


Oh this is interesting... where is the site/source where you got this from?

Is a marginal relation noteworthy?

I have to review the slower mutating STRs, especially in regards to my match on FTDNA that was a distance of 4 from me (Lemas).

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## Huracan

FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.

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## Sile

> FTDNA is listing me as Spain? So when you click on haplo-origins it actually shows me as Spain, despite the farthest my documented line goes back is in Cuba. I know it's obvious it could have come from Spain but I didn't confirm or state that.


haplogroup origins cannot give me your cuba, ......it will give me Spain along with my other Italy and ireland.

Isogg T is updated...........looks like we will go back under L446

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## Huracan

Oh ok.

And where is this update? I can't find any updated info on the ISOGG site or on FTDNA

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## Huracan

Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.

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## Sile

> Also, Sile, have you found out anymore people who were L446+, CTS11984+, or CTS8862+? and where they were from? Because I think as more people get tested, we see a wider range of where L446 and its subclades are found and this will help genealogical purposes too. As of now, I know L446 and its subclades are found in the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Poland. One other CTS11984+ individual from Nat Geno has the surname Espinoza, whose paternal family came from Spain to Peru - this is only other individual of Spanish descent that I know of that has CTS11984 or L446, other than myself.


as stated in isogg T - cts8862 and cts11984 will be replaced by L446 .............check other CTS which sit with L446 now

L446 is eastern alps and britain and all in between

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## Sile

*Table S7.* Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.
 *Ancestry*
 *Y-Chromosome* *Haplogroups*
 *Absolute Frequency*
 *Relative Frequency*

 *African*
 *BT*
 68
 17.7

 *Eurasian*
 *F*
 96
 25.0

 *K*
 4
 1.0

 *R1a**1*
 4
 1.0

 *R1b1a2*
 169
 44.0

 *T1a*
 1
 0.3

 *R1b1b2a1*
 40
 10.4

 *Native American*
 *Q1a2a1a1*
 2
 0.5



http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/....1004488-Brin1

KF...that T1 person must be your family!

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## Sile

*T1a2* CTS2157, *L131*
• • • • *T1a2** -
• • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* CTS11796, CTS12108, *L446*
• • • *T1a3* L1255


Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014. 

red text = isogg T today

so, CTS8862 and CTS11984 are under investigation and likely outcome is they will be downstream from L446......

if you have CTS11796, CTS12108 as positive and have L490 , you could be from caucasus instead of levant

Note: M70 is removed as being the originator of T1 , but is originator of T1a

T1 is now under L206 or M193


so for me
T by M272
T1 by M193
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131
T1a2b by L446

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## Huracan

> *Table S7.* Haplogroup assignations based on Y-Chromosome markers.
>  *Ancestry*
>  *Y-Chromosome* *Haplogroups*
>  *Absolute Frequency*
>  *Relative Frequency*
> 
>  *African*
>  *BT*
>  68
> ...


I think it is unlikely that they are my family. There is a certain percentage of T individuals in Spain as well as in the Spanish Americas, that T1a individual is probably just one of many. Even if they were T1a2b, it would be still unlikely that they are my family (related to me paternally that is). If I knew their surname, then I could corroborate. 
I do note, however, that T is low in Spain and even lower in Cuba. For sure, there are less than a dozen Fundoras from my line still in Cuba and possibly more but we do not have enough genealogical evidence to conclude anything.

----------


## Huracan

> *T1a2* CTS2157, *L131*
> • • • • *T1a2** -
> • • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
> • • • • *T1a2b* CTS11796, CTS12108, *L446*
> • • • *T1a3* L1255
> 
> 
> Moved CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 from Investigation to tree on 21 July 2014.Added CTS1774, CTS2214, CTS3767, CTS6280, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 to Investigation on 21 July 2014.
> 
> ...


Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:

T by M272
T1 by L490
T1a by M70
T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
T1a2b by L446

Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?

And this is what I see now on the ISOGG site:"_CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014_" also that CTS11796 and CTS12108 are equivalent to L446

----------


## Sile

> Oh this is interesting! I used MorleyDNA again to see where my tested SNPs fall under and I get this:
> 
> T by M272
> T1 by L490
> T1a by M70
> T1a2 by L131 (also CTS11796 and CTS12108)
> T1a2b by L446
> 
> Does this mean I am Caucasus instead of Levant, as you stated?
> ...


I am truly unsure if you are caucasus...I am reading on texts for the DYS390 marker .........there is a lot of talk from many haplogroups regarding DYS390 as a geographical indicator 

on Morley

morley has stopped work on MorleyDNA ( what you got is accurate) and is only doing clarifyDNA which is based on bigY 
he said

*The "Morley" tab you speak of gets inserted on your BigY results page by a third-party Chrome extension. I have no part in that extension, nor did I ever. I was not notified ahead of time that the extension would, for the purpose of BigY analysis, try to harness ytree.MorleyDNA.com's functionality.

The tool at ytree.MorleyDNA.com was built for Geno 2.0 data. The online predictor and its underlying dataset haven't been modified since July or August of 2013 -- before BigY's announcement. The output of the ytree.MorleyDNA.com tool is essentially static: the classifications and lists of unplaced SNPs will not change, even as new data becomes available. I don't have any enhancements scheduled for ytree.MorleyDNA.com, but the tool will remain online, primarily as a service to those who ordered Geno 2.0. www.clarifYDNA.com is my current focus.

BigY data is more complicated to work with. And there are known basal discrepancies between the phylogeny implied by Geno 2.0 data (or, at least, FTDNA's Geno 2.0 calls), and the one implied by "next-gen" data. Using a Geno-tuned predictor on next-gen data can produce some strange results.

*

----------


## Sile

@KF

Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.

YHRD.org is the *most accurate Ydna test that is done.*.........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.

below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.

I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.



the only issue with YHRD is that they never reveal the owner that was tested.

BTW...I never tested in YHRD

----------


## Huracan

I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16). 

Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
Heat Map.jpg
The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian

Here is when I did 13 and 16:
Heat Map 2.jpg
The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India

How did you find out how many markers they shared with you?? The larger the red glowing areas, the closer the relation correct? Then for the first map, the Austria one was slightly bigger than the Croatia one and the Australia one was really dim, while the second map its Greece and India, followed by Albania then Prague.

----------


## Huracan

Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from _fundura_ "depth").

I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?

The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe. 

The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].

By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).

----------


## Sile

> I couldn't do the 17 markers because I only did 37 Y-STRs and not 67. Some of the ones included in the 17 marker option I hadn't tested for so it was impossible for me to do. Since FTDNA gave me 13-13-16 for DYS385a and b, I used the two situations (13, 13) and (13, 16). 
> 
> Here is when I did 13 and 13 for the 10 marker option (SWGDAM):
> Heat Map.jpg
> The 3 matches were: Oberöstereich (Austria), Ljubljana (Slovenia), and an Australian
> 
> Here is when I did 13 and 16:
> Heat Map 2.jpg
> The 4 matches I got were: Prague, Albania (Tosk), Athens, and India
> ...


read attachment as you tested with this SWGDAM

http://swgdam.org/SWGDAM_YSTR_Guidel...2014_FINAL.pdf

All I was told about the heat map variations , is that the hotter the heat map the more it reflects the most important STR ..................but I need to confirm this via other sources

Your DYS385 issue is in the attachment

----------


## Sile

> Also @Sile, my closest match for 37 Y-STRs is a man from the Azores of surname Lemas (Galician) who is 4 steps away. Recent research likely puts my paternal family in the Canary Islands in the early 1700s and my surname may now be Galician or Portuguese (from _fundura_ "depth").
> 
> I was wondering once again (if I haven't asked before) how L446 could have been brought to Spain? (for I and Espinoza from Peru [CTS11984+] are the only of Spanish descent to be L446 that I have seen) You think it could have been brought by far-wandering Neolithic farmers from Central Europe (as L446's distribution seems to suggest a correlation with the Danubian culture) all the way to Iberia? Or maybe by the Celts as they moved from Central Europe into Iberia? Or even Roman settlers or slaves brought to Iberia?
> 
> The thing is that L446 is so uncommon beyond its distribution in the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and parts of Eastern Europe. 
> 
> The closest matches I have at 25 Y-STRs were Germans of the same surname (Frush, Froshour) [1-2 steps, all 1 except one which was 2] and the Lemas individual [1 step].
> 
> By 100 BC, the Romans had conquered the majority of Iberia (especially the western Atlantic coast [Lusitania and Gallaecia]) and during this time or after, slaves from the Alps or north of the Alps could have been taken to this area and give rise to my paternal line. Or they could simply have been Roman settlers. Mind you, these are just suggestions and I may be going out on a limb here. I was leaning earlier to the Celtic idea but the Roman scenario seems more likely because even with 25 Y-STRs, these individuals show a high degree of relation, which hints at a recent common ancestor not too long ago (on the order of centuries or even a millennia).


The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it . 

Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters

----------


## Sile

@KF

YhRD

I did the 4th in line and had 1 match in Wels Austria

did the centre and had 2 matches, Wels Austria and Enego in Veneto Italy

did the 2nd and 1st ones and they where the same and had 3 matches , Wels Austria, Enego in Veneto Italy, and Rovte in Slovenia

apparantly I stuffed up how DYS385 should be imputed .....and also never found DYS635 anywhere in my markers

after fixing yesterday stuff up ...I moved from SouthEast European to an equal split of east European and west European ............this is confusing .............maybe they should have had a central European

----------


## Huracan

> The person named Silesian, post a trail of the Alans people from the caucasus ................I will see if I can find it . 
> 
> Galicia does have a few L446 ( especially Cantalabria area) , but Galicia is very old celtic lands from migrating celts from Central Europe .............maybe Lebrok can help here of the Iberian posters


Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain. 

Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?

----------


## Huracan

Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.

----------


## Sile

> Where did you find that these places had L446?? I have never found anywhere that said that. Regardless, I am glad that it can be found there because that makes me less of an anomaly and my paternal line easier to explain. 
> 
> Yes indeed, Galicia is very old Celtic... should I message Lebrok?


there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .

Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .

Try 
http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx

many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.

----------


## Sile

> Yeah, I am not very familar with YHRD so I am a bit confused as to what you're saying, but it's ok. And the results from the heat map may be significant but since I could only compare with 10 markers, it's nowhere near as accurate as the other marker amounts.


YHRD due to their stringent testing methods are the only genetic company used by all nations for forensic testing .

the only problem with YHRD is that they will never reveal the name of the origin of the sampler. But I was told last week that they do reveal the geographical ancestry.

I am stating in my post#88, that I tested all the 5 tests.
Starting from right to the left.

the furthest , the right one , the 5th , showed zero markers for me
the 4th showed 1 match
the 3rd showed 2 matches
the 1st and 2nd showed 3 matches.
meaning that the further right in the tests you go the more accurate would be you geographical ancestors..............not to say that test #1 is in error, which it is not.

----------


## Huracan

> there are L446 in all the Caucasus, from people in dagestan to the lezkins to the azeri to the armenians ( unsure for georgians), Balkar people in the mountains of north caucasus has also some L446 .
> 
> Ask anyone , maybe the iberian posters are your best bet , as I am unsure when northern Spain became celtinized ..............there are L446 in central and southern germany , the alps, hungaria .
> 
> Try 
> http://www.smgf.org/index.jspx
> 
> many Iberians test here .........its free, but allows anyone to try their site only twice per day.


I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442

Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
25% Cumulative Probability -13 gens - 403 years
50% Cumulative Probability - 19 gens - 589 years
75% Cumulative Probability - 27 gens - 837 years
Note: I only differed with him at YCAIIb, and DYS442

Mind you, the other results I got where an Italian man (Lippi), several Englishmen, and a Mexican which were close in relation (80-70%) but were nowhere near as the 88 and 92% with this individual.

----------


## Huracan

Which value for the TMRCA should I pay most attention to? the "Most likely TMRCA" or the "75% Cumulative Prob."??

----------


## Sile

> I used it yesterday and today and the closest match I got was a man from Brazil with surname Martins (Portuguese) with whom I had a 23/26 match using 13-13 for DYS385. I was given the following data for that result:
> Most likely TMRCA - 21 generations - 651 years
> 25% Cumulative Probability -18 gens - 558 years
> 50% Cumulative Probability - 26 gens - 806 years
> 75% Cumulative Probability - 35 gens - 1085 years
> Note: I only differed with him at DYS385b, YCAIIb, and DYS442
> 
> Using 13-16 for DYS385, I got a 24/26 match with the same man and this was the new TMRCA data:
> Most likely TMRCA - 14 generations - 434 years
> ...


thanks

I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
I will check again against lippi late and let you know

remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR

----------


## Huracan

> thanks
> 
> I only got lippi from your above tests...........I contacted him. he is from Brescia ( north of , as stated) in east lombardy, Italy
> I will check again against lippi late and let you know
> 
> remove the fast mutating STR and your GD might be closer or test again without the fast mutating STR


When I excluded DYS385, DYS439, DYS458, DYS449, and DYS464, I got Lippi and Martins as my closest matches. This time, it says Lippi and I have a most likely TMRCA of 20 generations (620 years) while Martins is 21 generations (651 years).

----------


## Huracan

Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia

----------


## Huracan

Not to go off on a tangent, but I'm starting to consider more and more at least some of the L446 lineages were spread by the migrating Celts from southern Germany and Austria (Alpine region). The close relation (anywhere between 0-3, maybe 4, steps) of T-L446 individuals from Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Germany, and Italy seems to indicate a more recent TMRCA than the Neolithic times, when you would ordinarily expect a Neolithic haplogroup to spread throughout Europe.

I do not know if this hypothesis is applicable to all cases. For instance, the Espinoza individual from Peru (who is T-CTS11984) is 0-1 steps from individuals from Russia and East Europe, but that was using only 12 Y-STRs. He stated in his Nat Geno 2.0 story that "he was surprised to find that his father had Ashkenazim roots." I always thought that meant his paternal grandmother's side, but it could actually be his father's too; this would explain why his line has 0-1 steps from Belarusians, Poles, and Russians. I honestly do not know what to make of it though. These are all assumptions.

----------


## Sile

> Going along with my Celtic-distribution theory, Brescia was occupied by a Gallic tribe in the 7th century BC. When the Romans came in 225 BC, the tribe (Cenomani) submitted. In 202 BC, it became part of a Celtic confederation against the Romans but suddenly switched allegencies and attacked their long-time allies, the Gallic Insubres. Afterwards, they became allies, maintained a certain administrative freedom, and, in 41 BC, they were given Roman citizenship (becoming Romanized), in Brescia (which became a Roman city in 89 BC).
> Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia


before the cenomani arrived in the brescia/verona areas........they lived in southern france...between Marseilles and the spanish border...............and even before that, their origin is in Vendee in NW France near brittany

----------


## Huracan

> @KF
> 
> Try the new Beta YHRD.org site , do the manual imput selection, select the middle option ( 17 STR marker) and place your heat map when you are finished in here.
> 
> YHRD.org is the *most accurate Ydna test that is done.*.........they get 5 different samples from every individual tested and throw all out if 1 sample is corrupt.
> 
> below is my heat map for 16/17 exact markers ( red )...........blue indicates all other T people with 12 to 15 exact markers which match me.
> 
> I have only 1 person which is 17/17 with me ........from linz, Austria ...............I think it is my relative Carlo who left for salzburg in 1871.
> ...


Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.

----------


## Sile

> Sile, would you say that those red individuals are also T-L446?? If so, this would help in pin-pointing my paternal origins. Also, I messaged Lebrok (who wasn't Iberian) and he said that without enough or further research, it is too early to tell about the distribution of L446 in at least Spain.


yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers


In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested

----------


## Huracan

I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.

For 13-16 for DYS385:
1 Greek (from Athens)
1 Tosk Albanian
1 Czech (from Prague)
1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)

I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
YHRD 2.jpg

Further, using 13-13 for DYS385, I got 2 matches at the SWGDAM level:
1 Austrian (from Oberöstereich)
1 Slovenian (from Ljubljana)

Note these were brighter and closer to me than the Prague or Albanian sample. The Greek, Indian, Austrian, and Slovenian were the brightest and closest to me.

Does this make the Bhil Indian L446+? If so, this would expand the range of L446 and possibly L131 very far east indeed. L446 has already been confirmed in some Saudi Arabian individuals but comparing our STRs, they are not closely related to us at all. If I were to guess, the Bhil Indian's L446 likely arrived in India from a Neolithic migrant from the Near East. I had previously thought of the Hellenic Greeks (due to his relation to the Greek sample) with their widespread empire being a possibility but the empire never reached into India.

----------


## Huracan

Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).

Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it. 

I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.

What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.

----------


## Sile

> yes, but this map is only the minimal tests (12 marker test). as I go to the next test, everything disappears except the north italy , slovenia, Austria and hungary markers
> 
> 
> In the bigY.........there are 3 x L446, one from Faenza in italy bordering tuscany and emilia-romagna..........and 2 in peru..........you might have some luck there. but I do not have the kit numbers ( i only have the tuscan kit#).............none of these are Yhrd tested


oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico

----------


## Sile

> I recently reevaluated my STRs using YHRD (this time uploading my STRs via an Excel file) and used the Yfilter Plus, but I only got results from the Minimal Haplotype Database since no one matches me at the higher resolutions. I got the same results as last time.
> 
> For 13-16 for DYS385:
> 1 Greek (from Athens)
> 1 Tosk Albanian
> 1 Czech (from Prague)
> 1 Bhil Indian (from Gujarat)
> 
> I noticed this for the matches, does this mean they match all the markers I put in?
> ...


do you have same areas as my post #83?


bhil india has 50% of european stock
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032546


check the help guide for other information.

You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture

----------


## Sile

> Also, considering everything, my hypothesis on the origin of L446 in Spain and the origin of my paternal line is via the Cardial Ware culture of the Early Neolithic. It reached as far west as the Mondego on Portugal's Atlantic coast. L446 would have accompanied L131 migrants and could likely be found at small frequencies all over Spain (an assumption).
> 
> Then, as Neolithic populations expanded, the descendants of the Cardial (Epi-Cardial) and subsequent Megalithic culture (originating from southern Portugal) would have brought agriculture (and L446) into Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria. As sources state that these regions were only introduced to agriculture via the Megalithic culture, then it would have most likely carried T with it. 
> 
> I am not saying this is the only option and numerous other sources could have introduced T to these regions, but for L446, I see this is as a plausible scenario.
> 
> What confirms this is the relation my STRs and paternal line has to Galicians (1), Portuguese (2), and Italians (1-2 from northern parts and 2-3 from southern parts), indicating at least a distant paternal relation likely established by the expanding Cardial through the Mediterranean.


ok

I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .

Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups

*T1a2* CTS2157, *L131*
• • • • *T1a2** -
• • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* CTS11796, CTS12108, *L446

*P322 and P328 IIRC are germanic

----------


## Huracan

> ok
> 
> I have no doubt that T went with G, L, I and J into europe in the per-neolitihic times .
> 
> Why are you not placing L446 under L131 and its other branches? and seeing where they went. Subclades usually moved together with other haplogroups
> 
> *T1a2* CTS2157, *L131*
> • • • • *T1a2** -
> • • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
> ...


Actually, I kind of overlooked that. That makes total sense. I will look over where L131 is found in Iberia see where that leads me. 

The fact that P322 and P328 being Germanic makes complete sense given their distribution (Netherlands, northern Germany, Scandinavia, and Poland)

----------


## Huracan

> oops error...not peru ,........ but iberia ( galicia) and puerto rico


Interesting!!! The L446 in Galicia is starting to seem more promising

----------


## Huracan

> do you have same areas as my post #83?
> 
> 
> bhil india has 50% of european stock
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0032546
> 
> 
> check the help guide for other information.
> 
> You might need to wait until all the drop down areas are finished and working, then see your admixture


In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.

What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.

----------


## Sile

> In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.
> 
> What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.


The admixture part as well as others parts of Yhrd have not been finished yet...you will need to wait

----------


## Sile

> In post 83, we both share "matches" (red) with the individuals from Prague, Austria, Slovenia, Albania, and Greece.
> 
> What will the admixture reveal? I didn't test with YHRD, I only looked to see matches in their database.


check* ftdna projects for Azores , galicia and spain* ..................see if the T there matches you.........it does not match me

----------


## Huracan

I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.

I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).

----------


## Sile

> I checked the FTDNA Projects for the Azores, Portugal, Galicia, and Spain. Only one person out of all those projects was T-L446, a man from the Azores project whose earliest ancestor was Antonio Dutra born in Portugal but is 6+ steps away from me. If you analyze his surname, it means someone from Utra in Flanders or Utrecht, meaning his L446 likely came from the Belgium-Netherlands area of Western Europe and technically not of Iberian stock.
> 
> I checked YFull, I wonder if you know about it already. I looked at their experimental tree and noticed the only individuals that were downstream of L446 were a Puerto Rican and a Spaniard (they were listed as CTS10538+, equivalent to CTS8862).


I have checked YFull, but am unsure if its worthwhile. I have 2 of the CTS for the iberian and puerto rican, but have negative for the others. I think I sit between the TSI tuscan and these 2.

I figure I need to wait until they sort out their tree to match Isogg new July tree

YHRD is now only 1 step to go to complete new system...the admixture one. I reran it and only match , Austria, slovenia and north-east Italy .......all the rest have disappeared

----------


## Sile

how do you count genetic distance?

the infinite system or the step system

example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical

then IIRC, *infinite system* means a GD of 1 and 
a *step system* means a GD of 2 

this is why Ftdna GD numbers are different from ysearch GD numbers


it amazes me that in ftdna we have a 0 GD, 
a 6 GD in ysearch and a
4 GD in ftdna T project

----------


## Sile

@ fundora

I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)

I have no M184 at all
negative for L25 and page00113 and many others

let me know what you got

----------


## Huracan

> how do you count genetic distance?
> 
> the infinite system or the step system
> 
> example if we have DYS390 of 22 for me and 24 for you ..........and every other SNP is identical
> 
> then IIRC, *infinite system* means a GD of 1 and 
> a *step system* means a GD of 2 
> 
> ...


I think I was using the step system...

----------


## Huracan

> @ fundora
> 
> I got my negative rsults from Natgeno2 ( the long way round)
> 
> I have no M184 at all
> negative for L25 and page00113 and many others
> 
> let me know what you got


FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?

----------


## Sile

> FTDNA has me as "presumed positive" for M184 but positive for M272. Morley DNA confirmed I am negative for M184 and for L206. I'm also CYS9984+ which I believe you used to be designated as. I am also CTS12108+ as you are, but ISOGG places that as equivalent to L446... wouldn't you want to use a more downstream or terminal SNP?


I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all



.i do not have the basal M184 for T 
*M183 Y A A
M185 Y C C
M186 Y I I
M187 Y D D
M188 Y C C*

*but have the other basal for T 
M272 Y G G
*
I do not have M193
*M190 Y A A
M191 Y T T
M192 Y C C
M194 Y T T
M195 Y A A*


i do not have L206
*L204 Y C C
L205 Y A A
L208 Y C C
L209 Y C C
L21 Y C C
*


I do not have L455
*L451 Y G G
L453 Y C C
L454 Y C C
L455 Y - -
L456 Y A A
L457 Y G G
L458 Y C C
L46 Y A A

*I do have L25 ........but I am negative ..........I am also *negative for Page000113*
*L25 Y T T

To conclude the term "presumed positive" in ftdna means... although I do not have these markers I have equivalent markers in the same group
*
Some noted people, want me to Test BigY or Y prime as they think I have entered Europe in Mesolithic times and my genes would indicate where and when L446 began ..............I said, when I can afford it, having my father ill and sending a son to Europe has strained the coffers.

---Have you found your ancestral trail?


the correct marker call is what you have CTS8862...........I am positive for this as well. I will change mine soon in this forum

- Do you have matches with Reddick, Mozetic, or Dalessio and Fava
I am in a long email discussion with reddick...they are german from Hesse, with names Retgen, Rettig, Ruddoch and others.....I have 0 GD with this person.
Mozetic is Mozetti from south tyrol...I have 0 GD with this person

Dalessio as above, his parents from Molise italy, boy was born in 1879 in Salerno Campania Italy, left for USA in 1882, ............I have a 2 GD in ftdna with this person and a 15GD in ysearch ?!?!?!?!

----------


## Huracan

> I have these "presume positives" all cleared up..........basically, for me, I have no M184 or M193 or L206 or L455 at all
> 
> 
> 
> .i do not have the basal M184 for T 
> *M183 Y A A
> M185 Y C C
> M186 Y I I
> M187 Y D D
> ...


I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.

Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.

In regards to my ancestral trail, I found that likely all Fundoras in Cuba came from the Canary Islands, as early as the 1730s. This means that my paternal line also came from the Canary Islands to Cuba. The recent migration of a Fundora family (friend's uncle's family) to Cuba from Galicia or Asturias in the 20th century points to a likely Iberian origin for Fundora... most likely Galician since:
(1) the closest genetic match I have (in fact that only one I have) at 37 Y-STRs is the Lemas individual from the Azores. His surname can be traced back to A Coruña, Galicia to the medieval times
(2) other close matches I had (especially SMGF) were from Portugal, next in line after Lemas
(3) migrational history increases the likelihood that my surname (and that my paternal family) would have come from Galicia, both in recent migrations of poor Galicians to Cuba and the early migrations of Galicians to the Canaries (15-16th centuries)

I think my paternal line will have no paper trail after my earliest current known paternal ancestor (Luis) because his parents were likely from the predecessor of the town Luis was born in. That predecessor town was abandoned and likely burnt to the ground in the 1890s.

----------


## Huracan

But that Mesolithic link that they are suggesting is very interesting! And I wish you the best of luck with your family :)

----------


## Huracan

A bit of a sidetrack, the previous statement of yours regarding to the presence of L446 in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria, especially the Cantabria area, may have some connection to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but that's more Paleolithic.... never mind

----------


## Sile

> I am also negative for L206, L445, L452, M184, and M193. I am positive for M272 as you are.
> 
> Comparing 12 Y-STRs, I have 0 GD with Reddick and Mozetic (DYS385: 13, 13). I cannot find Dalessio or Fava on Ysearch or FTDNA.
> 
> .


Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S

----------


## Huracan

> Dalessio ysearch .............YSU4S


He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes

----------


## Sile

> He is greater than 6 steps away from me. I don't know, my genetic match list keeps on changing and seems confusing sometimes


what do you mean by keeps changing?.....in ysearch?

6 steps away from you, well......15 steps away from me.........yet ftdna who once had Dalessio zero GD from me, now sits at 2 GD from me. 

reddick is still zero from me as well as 3 other "hessians", Smelser, Belser and Pelser..............I wonder if they are all related

Clearly something is amiss in the computations that these sites use

----------


## Sile

@ Fundora

do you have the following zero GD of these people in ftdna.

Charles Jones, David Hill, Thomas Jones ( not related to other Jones), Richard perry, William Atherholt, Enoch Scales, Johannes "Jhon" Schafer ...................all from USA, all from Virginia, South-Carolina or Georgia.......only Charles Jones claim british descent ( scot ). .............and Reddick, whose ancestors are hessian with names Rettig, retgen and ruddoch
The matrix links a few together

----------


## Huracan

> what do you mean by keeps changing?.....in ysearch?
> 
> 6 steps away from you, well......15 steps away from me.........yet ftdna who once had Dalessio zero GD from me, now sits at 2 GD from me. 
> 
> reddick is still zero from me as well as 3 other "hessians", Smelser, Belser and Pelser..............I wonder if they are all related
> 
> Clearly something is amiss in the computations that these sites use


In Ysearch I see that some individuals appear as matches one day and then the next they don't appear. I don't seem to understand why, maybe it's something with the system.

----------


## Sile

@Fundora

After conversations, I am more CTS9984 than CTS8862 , ( I have both ) but they are equal as being in same branch......i am confused, I will need to check it out more..........maybe these 2 will eventually split. They do sit together in all T trees.

----------


## Huracan

> @ Fundora
> 
> do you have the following zero GD of these people in ftdna.
> 
> Charles Jones, David Hill, Thomas Jones ( not related to other Jones), Richard perry, William Atherholt, Enoch Scales, Johannes "Jhon" Schafer ...................all from USA, all from Virginia, South-Carolina or Georgia.......only Charles Jones claim british descent ( scot ). .............and Reddick, whose ancestors are hessian with names Rettig, retgen and ruddoch
> The matrix links a few together


I have 0 GD with all of them on FTDNA (using 12 Y-STRs) except Schafer... I can't see or find him on my matches list.

----------


## Huracan

Also, @Sile

When I compare Y-STRs, should I just count how much STRs are different? or should I count that plus the difference that value is from my mine?

For instance, if I am DYS393=13, DYS390=22, DYS19=13 and someone else is DYS393=13, DYS390=25, DYS19=14 should I say they are 2 steps away or 4 steps (25-22=3 + 14-13=1...=4 in total)?

I think the first method is better because the values fluctuate, increasing or decreasing in repeats randomly over time. Thus, to compare based on the values too would be unnecessary and account for too much variability.

----------


## Huracan

In addition, when I only included the slow-mutating Y-STRs to Ysearch, Dalessio came up as 2 steps away from me and the Russo individual was 1 step away from me. The others were an assortment of English and German individuals, 1 Brazilian, 1 Irish, and 1 more Italian (Lippi).

----------


## Sile

> Also, @Sile
> 
> When I compare Y-STRs, should I just count how much STRs are different? or should I count that plus the difference that value is from my mine?
> 
> For instance, if I am DYS393=13, DYS390=22, DYS19=13 and someone else is DYS393=13, DYS390=25, DYS19=14 should I say they are 2 steps away or 4 steps (25-22=3 + 14-13=1...=4 in total)?
> 
> I think the first method is better because the values fluctuate, increasing or decreasing in repeats randomly over time. Thus, to compare based on the values too would be unnecessary and account for too much variability.


This is called the infinite or step system. I asked ftdna many times which they use and they do not answer. 
I assume they use the infinite system which is your 2 step difference ( one for DYS390 and one for DYS19 ) ...I also think ysearch use the other system

----------


## Sile

> In addition, when I only included the slow-mutating Y-STRs to Ysearch, Dalessio came up as 2 steps away from me and the Russo individual was 1 step away from me. The others were an assortment of English and German individuals, 1 Brazilian, 1 Irish, and 1 more Italian (Lippi).


IN ysearch dalessio is sometimes 6 GD and sometimes 15 GD from me
Never seen Russo

Lippi , I only seen in SMGF and he is from Eastern Lombardy ...IIRC from Brescia

Do you get riggermann from dornbirn Austria ( near lake constance) , Ahmann from east prussia or Benedetto from central Italy ...............benedetto says ancestor married a german and name is fabricated.
Bene = good
detto = some say
_Some say a good "person"


On another matter ..........I used gedmatch to seek matches over 9cm , I then isolated all the ones with Ydna of T2b ( our branch ). I then ran all these in the new Mdlp k23b ...........and all 7 of these people came up with South_german, Austrian and hungarian in their choices...... as for myself , I got South_german, bergamo and then Piedmont, austrian and then tuscan.
I then ran these same 7 across another 2 gedmatch tests and their numbers hover close to each other...........I am unsure what it all means.

Try gedmatch mdlp K23b for admixtures and also try the many matches with a 9cm and 9cm option and see which ydna T you get
_

----------


## Sile

@fundora

Yfull and BigY has found 45 SNP's under T2ab branch
I suspect, these below to split to form further branches under L446

CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.

----------


## Huracan

> IN ysearch dalessio is sometimes 6 GD and sometimes 15 GD from me
> Never seen Russo
> 
> Lippi , I only seen in SMGF and he is from Eastern Lombardy ...IIRC from Brescia
> 
> Do you get riggermann from dornbirn Austria ( near lake constance) , Ahmann from east prussia or Benedetto from central Italy ...............benedetto says ancestor married a german and name is fabricated.
> Bene = good
> detto = some say
> _Some say a good "person"
> ...


I do not get Riggermann or Ahmann but I have seen Benedetto as a match before.

I took your advice on uploaded my data into GEDmatch. I have yet to pinpoint which admixture calculator is best, as they all seem to give roughly the same result. I cannot compare my results to other people (without their IDs) because it says my results have not been "batched" yet, meaning I can't do the "one-to-many" comparison.

----------


## Sile

> I do not get Riggermann or Ahmann but I have seen Benedetto as a match before.
> 
> I took your advice on uploaded my data into GEDmatch. I have yet to pinpoint which admixture calculator is best, as they all seem to give roughly the same result. I cannot compare my results to other people (without their IDs) because it says my results have not been "batched" yet, meaning I can't do the "one-to-many" comparison.


it takes a week sometimes

----------


## Huracan

Never mind, the function became available today. I had a lot of matches but only 1 is T-L131 and he is 7.1 generations away. But just because we share a common ancestor and similar haplogroup does not mean we are related paternally.

----------


## Sile

> Never mind, the function became available today. I had a lot of matches but only 1 is T-L131 and he is 7.1 generations away. But just because we share a common ancestor and similar haplogroup does not mean we are related paternally.


who is your one L131

I have 4 ..........schale ( central germany) , Kile ( north germany) , Coad ( alsace/lorraine )and belser ( austria)

----------


## Huracan

Peter Carson (M20504)

----------


## Sile

> Peter Carson (M20504)


thanks............. I have him as well, with
F161332........... Chris Schuetz
FN117532.........M.Coad
M211901...........Melissa Woody
F265478...........Tom Kile
M044240..........Rodney De Mott
F252356..........Chris Macedo

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## Sile

above is my positive only SNP according to Isogg July 2014 tree

Again I state , I do not have the basal T-M184

it seems to me that too many people think they have the main basal marker 100% of the time ............I am referring to all ydna markers

----------


## Huracan

Hello Sile,

I was wondering if you knew any info about L446 (or even CTS8862 and its equivalent SNPs) in Spain? Recent research continues to suggest a Spanish origin of my paternal line. I want to know as much as possible about the distribution of L446 and its subclades before I can start making predictions and continuing research on where in Spain my line originates from.

----------


## Sile

> Hello Sile,
> 
> I was wondering if you knew any info about L446 (or even CTS8862 and its equivalent SNPs) in Spain? Recent research continues to suggest a Spanish origin of my paternal line. I want to know as much as possible about the distribution of L446 and its subclades before I can start making predictions and continuing research on where in Spain my line originates from.


I am noted as T-L446* ...............* means no more subclades............until these are sorted out into branches or not
*CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.* 

I suspect CTS8862 and CTS11984 will just merge into L446 and the others will be more viable as branches

I think I already noted to you that Galicia and catalonia are you better spanish options for L446.....................I will keep looking.

Chris Morley sent me a private letter to do some special testing , but I cannot afford it at the moment..............I will try to find it and see if you can be my replacemnet

----------


## Huracan

> I am noted as T-L446* ...............* means no more subclades............until these are sorted out into branches or not
> *CTS1774, CTS3767, CTS8862, CTS9984, CTS11984 are downstream of L446. Listed 21 July 2014.* 
> 
> I suspect CTS8862 and CTS11984 will just merge into L446 and the others will be more viable as branches
> 
> I think I already noted to you that Galicia and catalonia are you better spanish options for L446.....................I will keep looking.
> 
> Chris Morley sent me a private letter to do some special testing , but I cannot afford it at the moment..............I will try to find it and see if you can be my replacemnet


I see, this makes sense... and no no don't worry, you should do it because it was offered to you.

----------


## Sile

below is the new composite T tree released by Ray Banks early October 2014 

I think there is a misprint on our branch............it should be *T1a2b1a*

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

----------


## Sile

The new tree has the term "provisional" for the marker L490 ...............this is the only marker I have that links me from Basal T to M70 (T1a)

----------


## Huracan

> below is the new composite T tree released by Ray Banks early October 2014 
> 
> I think there is a misprint on our branch............it should be *T1a2b1a*
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t


I agree that it must be typo/misprint but nice to see some organization regarding all the T subclades.

----------


## Maciamo

> A bit of a sidetrack, the previous statement of yours regarding to the presence of L446 in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria, especially the Cantabria area, may have some connection to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium but that's more Paleolithic.... never mind


Please read this. I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).

----------


## Sile

> Please read this. I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).


thanks Maciano

but IMO this is basically the majority of the L162 branch ( P77), you will rarely find L131 branch in the med. especially western med.

Your K=20 paper ( laz ) seems more approporaite for T in regard sto kundora and myself. ...........you state it as 
*13) The Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian admixture might be a composite of the West Asian branch of macro-haplogroup K, comprising mostly the original autosomal genes of carriers of Y-haplogroups L and T. Over time, L and T appear to have been replaced by the paternal lineages of successive invaders,* 

This scenario fits my haplotree in post #140. Because L298 is the LT marker (K1) and its origins are stated as being in the Sind valley ( close to gedrosia ), with L ( k1a) and T ( k1b) heading west through persia and east to india ( the T in india is only on the east side , basically one branch, the same branch that went to Oman centuries later)

regards

----------


## Sile

@kundora

My Austin dewey Schales zero genetic distance matches person, is apparently in this book ............they came from hesse near the border of wuurtenberg
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ed=0CBwQ6AEwAA

he matches me in ftdna, 23andme and ysearch............the connection must be pre 1700

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## Sile

@kundora

Strange thing with ysearch.......if you load the numbers manually I get extra matches

I only load the first 15 numbers

----------


## Huracan

> Please read this. I have explained that the presence of haplogroup T in Galicia, Asturias, and Cantabria is combined with the presence of haplogroups J1, E-M34 and E-M81, mtDNA L, M1, U3 and U6, and higher autosomal frequencies of Caucasian and Red Sea admixtures. This is either due to the settlement of north-west Iberia by Neolithic farmers from Southwest Asia via North Africa, or the expansion of south-west Iberian populations some time between 1000 BCE (from the time the Phoenicians settled the south-west) and 500 CE (end of the Roman period).


Thank you, Maciamo. This clarifies a lot of my predictions and assumptions.

----------


## Huracan

> @kundora
> 
> Strange thing with ysearch.......if you load the numbers manually I get extra matches
> 
> I only load the first 15 numbers


That's weird...

----------


## Sile

> That's weird...


yes it is and sorry for miss spelling your name in other threads.

via this input system, I found another zero GD with me ....a french/german from Alsace

Do you have a person called *crump* in your Ftdna ?............he also appeared in ysearch for me as well, I don't know who he is

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## Sile

@fundora

Have you completly finalised your maybe "bergamo" connection?.........you know the spanish where involved a lot in lombardy in the 16th century.

you could end up something like me, ...my grandmother is from Merlengo, this name was originally Marling, same name as a town in Swabia. History states it was created by swabian and alemanni people in the years 1000s as they belong to the mercenary's families who followed the nobility , ie, Scaliger, Ezzelini or Carrara families who originate on the other side of the alps

----------


## Huracan

> @fundora
> 
> Have you completly finalised your maybe "bergamo" connection?.........you know the spanish where involved a lot in lombardy in the 16th century.
> 
> you could end up something like me, ...my grandmother is from Merlengo, this name was originally Marling, same name as a town in Swabia. History states it was created by swabian and alemanni people in the years 1000s as they belong to the mercenary's families who followed the nobility , ie, Scaliger, Ezzelini or Carrara families who originate on the other side of the alps


Despite my best efforts, I cannot finalize any theory regarding my surname because there is no historical or official information regarding it whatsoever. I have done intensive research regarding all routes and I cannot pinpoint the best. My closest Y-STR matches are with an Azorean (surname Lemas, from FTDNA), a Brazilian (Martins, from SMGF), and two Italians (Lippi, from SMGF, & Russo, from Ysearch). This was done using a mixture of the total 37 STRs I tested and the 23 slow-mutating ones within that set. Other matches I see from Ysearch using the slow STRs are: 

GD = 1
Russo (Naples, Italy ... but I read earlier in this thread that you said he was a Greek Jew?)
GD = 2
Carvalho (Brazil ... but reading his extra info, the original surname was Pinto)Hill (USA)Atwell (USA)Frush (Germany)Jones (?)Schales (Germany)Frush (USA)Owens (USA)Mitchell (USA)Dalessio (Selerno, Italy ... isn't this the individual you mentioned earlier that his surname indicates ancestry from another part of Italy?)
GD = 3
Hill (USA)Powell (USA) x 2Powell (UK)Sizemore (UK)McKee (?)Milligan (USA)Welch (Ireland)Fakes (?)

The issue is that sometimes these matches arise from random STR values that are similar to mine or the same but we don't actually share a "recent" paternal ancestry. Also, a large amount of individuals in these databases are Americans or from the British Isles, skewing the results somewhat (i.e. thinking you are closely related to an Englishmen when in reality you aren't). With the slow-mutating STRs, yes I can see that they might be close in relation somewhat because those values don't change as fast.

----------


## Huracan

> yes it is and sorry for miss spelling your name in other threads.
> 
> via this input system, I found another zero GD with me ....a french/german from Alsace
> 
> Do you have a person called *crump* in your Ftdna ?............he also appeared in ysearch for me as well, I don't know who he is


Oh no its fine and interesting... and yes he appeared on my 12 Y-STR match list on FTDNA at a GD of 0.

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## Huracan

Wait, correction: the surname Fundora appears historically in Italy (as an uncommon misspelling of the Lucchesi Fondora), _fundora_ is a Medieval Latin word originating in Italy (meaning "grounds", as a plural of _fundus_), and there are places in Naples called Fundora but these could just be pure coincidence... I cannot make any definitive connections.

Fundora is found in several places in Spain, especially Cataluña and the Canaries, but recent migration from Galicia first focused my attention on a Galician-Portuguese origin (where the poor economic conditions of Galicia explaining its high frequency in the industrious province of Barcelona, for instance) but I continually see Fundora as a possible shortened form of Fundadora ("female founder, foundress" in Spanish) which might throw off any paternal modes of connection.

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## Sile

> Wait, correction: the surname Fundora appears historically in Italy (as an uncommon misspelling of the Lucchesi Fondora), _fundora_ is a Medieval Latin word originating in Italy (meaning "grounds", as a plural of _fundus_), and there are places in Naples called Fundora but these could just be pure coincidence... I cannot make any definitive connections.
> 
> Fundora is found in several places in Spain, especially Cataluña and the Canaries, but recent migration from Galicia first focused my attention on a Galician-Portuguese origin (where the poor economic conditions of Galicia explaining its high frequency in the industrious province of Barcelona, for instance) but I continually see Fundora as a possible shortened form of Fundadora ("female founder, foundress" in Spanish) which might throw off any paternal modes of connection.


I had a quick look at Fondra BDM's in Bergamo ( but it will take time ) 


I did find this 
http://en.geneanet.org/profil/luisaf.../Luisa-Fundora
maybe your relative


and this
https://familysearch.org/search/reco...ame%3Afundora~

----------


## Sile

My closest Y-STR matches , a Brazilian (Martins, from SMGF), and two Italians (Lippi, *East Lombady* from SMGF, & Belser *Belluno*, from Ysearch). T
Hill (USA) .......*a hessian with a name change .....I have 3 Hill people...0 GD*Jones (?).....*0 GD*Schales (Germany) *a hessian...0 GD*Dalessio (Selerno, Italy ... isn't this the individual you mentioned earlier that his surname indicates ancestry from another part of Italy?) ...........*Dalessio news is ...migrated from Naples to USA in 1882 at the age of 3 ( I have copy of manifest of ship) , settled previous in Salerno and the parents migrated from the Molise region to Salerno for work before child was born.............the only other Dalessio that went to the USA was 30 years before from Utrecht Netherlands.* .....*sometimes 2 GD and sometimes 3 GD*

----------


## Huracan

> I had a quick look at Fondra BDM's in Bergamo ( but it will take time ) 
> 
> 
> I did find this 
> http://en.geneanet.org/profil/luisaf.../Luisa-Fundora
> maybe your relative
> 
> 
> and this
> https://familysearch.org/search/reco...ame%3Afundora~


Luisa Fundora is a Cuban living in France. My grandfather had contacted her a few years back, she isn't related to us. And I have searched before on FamilySearch, all Fundoras archived here are Cuban-Americans or Cuban migrants to other places (i.e. Brazil).

----------


## Huracan

> ... & Belser *Belluno*, from Ysearch)...


Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?

----------


## Sile

> Wait, I remember seeing the Russo individual was of the Russo surname project on FTDNA but you're saying he isn't actually a Russo? His surname is Belser and his paternal line goes back to Belluno in Venice?


I was just saying that I do not have russo , but have a Belser

I have a benedetto from Molise ..............he married a german, the name is fabricated, it means *some say good* person

Dalessio is americanized surname, in Italy it would be one of the following:

Da Lessio = means from the town of Lessio in northern Italy ..............like Da Vinci = came from town called Vinci.
from Lessio you get another popular name as Less ( usually found in Alpine Italy ) , with Less there is another name which is Loss ( I have a very distant relative who was Bridiga Loss circa IIRC 1700 )

D'Alessio = means same as Di Alessio , it could mean he stated he was the son Alessio............again 80% plus this name is northern Italian.

----------


## Huracan

Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.

----------


## Sile

> Oh I see, never mind. My mistake.


I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......

Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
12 markers = 0 GD
25 markers = 3 GD
37 markers = 5 GD
67 markers = 15 GD
we both tested 67 markers

----------


## Huracan

> I check for every CTS8862 possible and could only find 5 people that where positive for it, You, me, Knox, Dalessio and a french/german ( no name found, but on the border)
> all the others ( over 20 plus in number ) are negative tested and are isolated in saudi Arabia, mesopotamia, north germany and southern England .......
> 
> Dalessio and me get further and further apart the higher the number of markers
> 12 markers = 0 GD
> 25 markers = 3 GD
> 37 markers = 5 GD
> 67 markers = 15 GD
> we both tested 67 markers


YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").

I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3). 

The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...

The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria. 

This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.

----------


## Sile

> YFull lists 2 CTS8862+ (or positive for an equivalent SNP) one from Spain and one from Puerto Rico. Four more individuals were added to T-L446* but their origins have to be posted (they still say "new").
> 
> I have been reevaluating some STR relationships and used the slowest STRs from the 37 I tested. The results from Ysearch showed a close relationship to Italians (Russo, Rossi, Dalessio), Germans (Froschauer, Frush, Schales), Brits, 1 Brazilian (Carvalho, actually Pinto), and 1 Spaniard (Madrigal) amongst others (GD from 0-3) and on SMGF 1 Italian (Lippi), 1 German (Mueller), 1 Brazilian, and 2 Hispanics (Rojas, Lanas) (GD from 1-3). 
> 
> The fact that I have Hispanic and Brazilian/Portuguese matches, as well as 2 other CTS8862+ of Spanish origin, confirms the likelihood that my immediate paternal ancestry was from Iberia, yet the other relationships clearly mean something else. I know I have dwelt on this notion before but there could an Indo-European connection...
> 
> The late Bronze Age spread of Indo-European peoples (namely Celts and Italics) in western and central Europe could explain this apparent close paternal relation amongst individuals in the British isles, Iberia, Germany, and Italy. It is interesting to note how Brits, Irish, Scots, southern Germans, (mostly northern) italians, and northern Iberians are all present in this group. The Spanish surnames of the individuals closest to me all have surnames originating in northern Spain (Rojas in Burgos or Lugo, Lanas in Navarre, Madrigal in Castile, also Lemas in Galicia [Lemas is the closest match to me on FTDNA, have yet to find out his STRs]), corroborating an at least Celtic connection. This could also explain the concentration of T in northern Spain, especially in Asturias and isolated parts of Cantabria. 
> 
> This is solely my theory and there could be numerous holes. I still consider a Neolithic origin to be likely but have yet to see how it can compensate for these matches and their geographic patterns.


I have no doubt the you are hispanic in the last few hundreds years , especially since we do not match from 25 markers and beyond. But Brazil is not entirely a hispanic colony, over 2 million veneti from northern italy settled in southern Brazil ( around sao Paulo ). There was so many that a dialect was created called Talian ( the name Venetians give to all Italians )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talian_dialect
easy for me to read..http://www.coromarmolada.it/talian.htm ...from southern Brazil

The other 3 million veneti who left between 1875 to 1970 settled in the other parts of the world with USA getting the fewest ( As USA was southern Italian area of settlement initially )

----------


## Huracan

I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.

----------


## Sile

> I agree in regards to the fact that a lot of Brazilians do have a lot of Italian ancestry. The BrazilIan individual on SMGF was as close to me as was to Lippi sometimes, but we can't conclude anything regarding their ancestry unless they find a connection.


Which in my list do you not have!

----------


## Huracan

> Which in my list do you not have!


People you have that I don't:
-Dalessio

People I have that you don't:
-Curtiss
-Lemas
-Pierluisi

----------


## Sile

@fundora

a new match in FF yesterday.........another "hessian" stated from USA, named Harris ?! ............3rd cousin this time ( some people say in Ftdna to add two levels ...5th cousin !?!)
with surnames
Parlier, Perlier, Pettit ...............seems french to me
Reese Schuster ............German
Soot ...............slang Italian , meaning dry
Steinseiffer ............austrian/bavarian
Tudor ...................NW Italian .......or English

----------


## Huracan

Interesting. Well, I didn't get any new matches in Family Tree DNA.

----------


## Sile

> Interesting. Well, I didn't get any new matches in Family Tree DNA.


the knox person on this site below is the only other CTS8862+ that I have found which matches our postive marker

http://knoxsociety.org/knox_dna_overview.htm

he is from Ireland ......................maybe a lost spaniard from the Armada :Waaaht:

----------


## Sile

http://knoxsociety.org/knox_dna_overview.htm

----------


## Huracan

Sile,

I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.

I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane. 

Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:

L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
-CTS11984: 3,800 years ago
--CTS8862: 1,900 years ago
--PS11: 900 years ago
P322: 3,400 years ago

*All of these results were done using 37 STRs.

----------


## Sile

> Sile,
> 
> I found a better TMRCA calculator than MacDonald's, it's by Tim Janzen and can be accessed from http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_tools under TMRCA Calculators. His Excel program allows for hundreds of haplotypes to be put in at once and puts out several TMRCAs in generations and years based on different methods and using different STRs.
> 
> I put into it my STRs, your's (your are Pretotto, correct?), Knox from N Ireland, Knox from US, and Mason as we are the only CTS8862 whose STRs are available. Knox from US and Mason are predicted CTS8862 due to their close relation to Knox from N Ireland who is confirmed CTS8862. Looking at the TMRCAs that removed the fast STRs and included the best methods and corrections, I discovered that our most recent common ancestor was about 64 generations ago or 1,900 years. Since I used my father as a reference point, that puts our MRCA in the 1st century to 2nd century CE. This may not be the actual appearance of our SNP but it is still significant because for our paternal lines to be traced in "recent" times to the British Isles, Italy, and Spain yet still be related at some point almost 2,000 years ago is very interesting. I looked at our individual relations, aka inputting only 2 haplotypes at a time, and saw that I was closest in relation to Knox from N Ireland, with a MRCA living 595 years ago, putting that man living around the late 14th century. What does this all mean? I have yet to figure it out, but there must have been some demographic event or historical population that could have caused a far flung distribution of descendants in a short amount of time. I looked into the Jewish diaspora from Judaea after the destruction of the Second Temple and it correlates with the time period of our last common ancestor. These Jews, who either fled to other parts of the Roman Empire or were sold into slavery in Rome likely distributed themselves far and wide. It cannot be said how quickly they could have converted into Christianity to assimilate and avoid the cycle of persecution they suffered throughout time or if they did so at all. For my MRCA with Knox, there could be a link to the Sephardi Jews that fled Spain only a century later in the late 15th century, some of which did migrate to the British Isles... but that occurred during the 17th and 18th centuries, possibly contradicting these theories since Knox's earliest ancestor was born 1759 in Strabane. 
> 
> Janzen did state that the 37 and 67 STR calculations in his Excel program did sometimes underestimate the TMRCA, for which I can see is a possibility here. I also went along and tried evaluating the TMRCA for other T-L131 sub-clades, including L446 itself. Here is what I got:
> 
> L446: 5,000 years ago (not including Saudi and Kuwaiti STRs, might be older once I include them)
> ...


Thanks for this

Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either *D'Alessio* or *da Lessio* ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

try that one out and see where we all fit.

I will get you the other 2 I recently found

BTW...CTS11984 might also be worth investigating
and
I have found zero CTS8862+ in Arabia and the mesopotamia area..........all are tested CTS8862-

----------


## Sile

With Dalessio I get

Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464: 
*1002*  

and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464: 
*1545*

----------


## Huracan

> Thanks for this
> 
> Below is the other confirmed CTS8862..........Dalessio ( no such name in Italy ) it was either *D'Alessio* or *da Lessio* ..........both Alessio and Lessio are 70% + in Italy from my paternal area.
> 13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11
> 
> try that one out and see where we all fit.
> 
> I will get you the other 2 I recently found
> 
> ...


Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.

Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.

----------


## Huracan

> With Dalessio I get
> 
> Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464: 
> *1002*  
> 
> and with Vernon Jones from North Carolina year 1760
> Age in years for 37 markers using James Heald's method and Chandler's mutation rates after removing CDYa, CDYb, and DYS 464: 
> *1545*


Is Vernon Jones also CTS8862+?

----------


## Huracan

Yes, CTS11984 might also be worth investigating. It is found only among European L446 (as well as Russian, Turkish, and Armenian I think) and that is surely very interesting.

----------


## Sile

> Oh I forgot about him, I will include him now. I would also greatly appreciate those other 2 CTS8862. I know there are 2 other CTS8862 from YFull that are Puerto Rican and Spanish but we do not know their STRs.
> 
> Just as a reminder, this was a preliminary and tentative theory. It will take much more research to confirm my statements.


the Tuscan from yfull

TSI	NA20758	T*	19	14	19	29	14	10	26	12	12	9	15	17	21	22	12	13	11	13	16	13	14	15	12

13 22 14 10 13-14 na na 12 14 13 29 16 x-xx xx xx xx 15 19 xx xx-xx-xx-xx xx 12 xx-xx 15 xx 19 17 xx-xx xx 9
DYS635= 21
DYS481= 26
DYS549= 12
DYS533= 12
DYS643= 11


#Genetic analyzer:3730xl; POP7
#File created: January 7, 2014	
Population SampleID	YHaplogroup	DYS576	DYS389I	DYS448	DYS389II	DYS19	DYS391	DYS481 DYS549	DYS533	DYS438	DYS437	DYS570	DYS635	DYS390	DYS439	DYS392	DYS643 DYS393	DYS458	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS456	Y-GATA-H4


you need to sort it out

----------


## Sile

schales below ............i was told he was cts8862 ( unsure)

Schales Germany 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 26 15 20 33 11 15 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 17 17 34 34 14 9

----------


## Sile

info about parker........no match for last 4000 years

22921 Timothy W. Parker, b.c. 1780-90, England England T-L131 
13 22 13 10 13-13 11 12 11 14 13 29 15 9-9 11 12 28 15 19 34 11-11-15-16-17 11 11 23-24 16 13 18 18 34-36 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 12 11 12 20-20 17 10 12 12 18 8 11 27 21 14 11 12 14 11 11 12 11 
for its DYS385=13-13, but also here irregularities in DYS464, where you had a RecLOH probably from 11-11-15-16 to 11-11-11-11 (and when you find another person with these values he will be the closest to you) and distant values: your DYS537=12 from 11 may be worth also 4000/6000 years

----------


## Sile

N78475 Puiatti Friuli T-M70 
13 23 14 11 14-16 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 8-9 11 12 24 14 19 35 11-11-16-16 11 10 22-24 18 13 18 16 35-35 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 20-20 17 10 12 10 16 8 11 28 20 14 11 12 13 10 11 12 11 

The DYS390=23 is unusual if he really has CTS8862

----------


## Huracan

Is there a reason why you chose Heald and Chandler's method? Because I am now averaging Nordtvedt and Chandler vs Heald and Chandler, but if I should consider just Heald and Chandler that would make it easier.

----------


## Sile

> Is there a reason why you chose Heald and Chandler's method? Because I am now averaging Nordtvedt and Chandler vs Heald and Chandler, but if I should consider just Heald and Chandler that would make it easier.


let me know which one you want and I will follow suit

----------


## Sile

> Is Vernon Jones also CTS8862+?


I am checking about this.........

I also found out the Muller in brazil is the same family as Miller in England...both a german descent

----------


## Huracan

After reviewing and reevaluating, I decided to best consider Heald's and Chandler's method w/o CDY and 464 since Nordtvedt and Chandler's consistently underestimated the TMRCA. Below is the new data:

L131 (13,800 years ago) [From Mendez_ et al_., 2011]
-L446 (10,500 years ago)
--CTS11984 (5,200 years ago)
---CTS8862 (2,900 years ago)
---PS11 (800 years ago)
-P322 (6,500 years ago)

----------


## Sile

> After reviewing and reevaluating, I decided to best consider Heald's and Chandler's method w/o CDY and 464 since Nordtvedt and Chandler's consistently underestimated the TMRCA. Below is the new data:
> 
> L131 (13,800 years ago) [From Mendez_ et al_., 2011]
> -L446 (10,500 years ago)
> --CTS11984 (5,200 years ago)
> ---CTS8862 (2,900 years ago)
> ---PS11 (800 years ago)
> -P322 (6,500 years ago)


looks good

You know P322 can never have CTS8862 ..............well all 100% for far are negative CTS8862

here is the other CTS8862.........seems like another knox or mason
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

----------


## Huracan

Yes CTS8862 is a subclade of CTS11984 and itself a subclade of L446. They are not descendant of P322. 

Looking at that Knox page, it appears there is a whole line of Knox's that appear to be CTS8862, for all of those in the same cluster have STRs almost exactly the same as the confirmed CTS8862 Knox. In that case, CTS8862 has a specific presence in Scotland and Northern Ireland. 

Also, since CTS11984, CTS8862, and PS11 are only found in Europe, but not in the Middle East as L446 and P322 are, suggests a post-Neolithic origin and distribution, which is corroborated by their respective predicted ages. I will continue to look into any possible population links, as the Jewish theory may be less likely due to the increased ages after reevaluation.

----------


## Sile

> Yes CTS8862 is a subclade of CTS11984 and itself a subclade of L446. They are not descendant of P322. 
> 
> Looking at that Knox page, it appears there is a whole line of Knox's that appear to be CTS8862, for all of those in the same cluster have STRs almost exactly the same as the confirmed CTS8862 Knox. In that case, CTS8862 has a specific presence in Scotland and Northern Ireland. 
> 
> Also, since CTS11984, CTS8862, and PS11 are only found in Europe, but not in the Middle East as L446 and P322 are, suggests a post-Neolithic origin and distribution, which is corroborated by their respective predicted ages. I will continue to look into any possible population links, as the Jewish theory may be less likely due to the increased ages after reevaluation.


ok on above

The Knox person ( kit# 180193) which has CTS8862 is called the Samuel line
below is the Knox petigree fro T1
*John Knox*

*BORN*
*1708, Scotland*

*MARRIED*
*Jean Gracey, 1730 Coleraine, Ireland*

*CHILDREN*
*(M) William b. 1736 IRELAND d. 19JUL1776 NC**(M) Absalom b. 1738 IRELAND d. 1808 OH**(M) John b. 1739 IRELAND d. 1802 NC**(F) Mary b. 31JUL1742 NC d. 1823 NC**(M) Samuel b. 1JAN1746 IRELAND d. 11FEB1837 GA**(M) Joseph b. DEC1747 IRELAND d. 02MAR1836 TN**(M) James b. 1752 NC d. 10OCT1794 NC**(M) Benjamin b. 10APR1759 NC d. 27FEB1842 Rowan Co., NC* 

*DIED*
*12OCT1758 Rowan County, North Carolina*

*SOURCES*
*E. Boehms Skelley (Note 1) , Find A Grave (Note 2) , RootsWeb (Note 3)*



#5 is the samuel ..............Born Ireland and died in Geogia USA

*180193* *John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Samuel Line)*

----------


## Sile

the kit numbers

106591
Probably born as "Knox" & adopted as "Mason"

227727
 Thomas Knox, d. 1796 Syssex Co DE

58636
Reddick Knox, b.1791, Pitt Co. NC

124565
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Joseph Line)

180193
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Samuel Line)

185534
John Knox, b. 1708, d. 1758 Rowan Co NC (Benjamin Line)

79785
Levi Knox, b. 1791, Delaware

167670
John Knox, b. ca 1785, NC; d. 1840-1850 Lincoln Co, GA

33644
John Knox, b.ca. 1759, Strabane, Ulster, Ireland




Seems like its an old Gaelic/Celtic/Argyll line

----------


## Huracan

Didn't kit # 124565 state that his earliest paternal ancestor was William Knox born ca. 1510 in Haddington?

But yes, I agree, although I was researching the history of the Scots and Irish and although both are Gaelic, depending on where this Knox line originated, it could have been Pictish too, since they were the inhabitants of Scotland back then.

I inputted their haplotypes and their common ancestor lived 10 generations ago or approx. 305 years. The problem is, what year or individual do I use as a reference point? Would those 305 years be from the present (i.e. 2014-305)?

----------


## Sile

found this from Morley on his study of T - CTS8862

*I see that CTS8862 was tested on the Geno chip, but it doesn't appear in my latest Geno-based report, and I haven't looked at the Geno 2.0 dataset in several months.
However, I have done a similar analysis (unreleased) on Chromo2 data. That report puts CTS8862 at the "T1a2b~2" level. Below L446, and approximately phyloequivalent to CTS3767, CTS9984 and CTS11984 (and three other markers that recur elsewhere in the tree). I have 18 candidate markers "between T1a-L131 and T1a2b-L446" (the dataset lacks representation from T1a2a-P322). There are 7 S-series markers at the "T1a2b~1" level, and a further 7 at the "T1a2b~1~1" level. Granted, these clades are based on only one sample per clade.*

These are my positive s-series
S27238+, S137+, S27574+, S138+, S27644+, S27554+, S27681+, S27568+, S27128+, S27531+, S27605+, S27247+, S26596+, S2041+, S27445+, S27774+

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## Huracan

Interesting, so CTS11984, CTS8862, and CTS9984 are possibly at the same level? I could re-run some of the TMRCA calculations I have been doing to see what the significance of that might be. 

And how did you find out this s-series?

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## Sile

> Interesting, so CTS11984, CTS8862, and CTS9984 are possibly at the same level? I could re-run some of the TMRCA calculations I have been doing to see what the significance of that might be. 
> 
> And how did you find out this s-series?


I cannot remember who ran my sample and sent me my s-series ( I will need to consult my notes )...but they did find me eventually postive for basal M184 , but also found me negative for basal M193.

did you try this below ..............I put mine in yesterday .......not ready yet

http://daver.info/ysub/

----------


## Huracan

> I cannot remember who ran my sample and sent me my s-series ( I will need to consult my notes )...but they did find me eventually postive for basal M184 , but also found me negative for basal M193.
> 
> did you try this below ..............I put mine in yesterday .......not ready yet
> 
> http://daver.info/ysub/


I had submitted my Geno 2.0 info to him around Feb/March of this year. My information is currently in his files, check his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Geno20YdnaS...ison?ref=br_tf

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## Sile

> I had submitted my Geno 2.0 info to him around Feb/March of this year. My information is currently in his files, check his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/Geno20YdnaS...ison?ref=br_tf


he does not use the spreadsheet anymore?

----------


## Huracan

Yes he does! He compiles the results and info individuals send to him and he displays it in an attached spreadsheet

----------


## Huracan

> N78475 Puiatti Friuli T-M70 
> 13 23 14 11 14-16 11 12 11 13 13 29 16 8-9 11 12 24 14 19 35 11-11-16-16 11 10 22-24 18 13 18 16 35-35 12 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 10 9 12 20-20 17 10 12 10 16 8 11 28 20 14 11 12 13 10 11 12 11 
> 
> The DYS390=23 is unusual if he really has CTS8862


Is it confirmed that Friuli is CTS8862+?

----------


## Sile

> Is it confirmed that Friuli is CTS8862+?


I do not know until Adriano does my results ........have you seen them?

You can compare yours with Puiatti ............I saw your name, but results for you are all stated as ?

maybe you got them privately.............but Puiatti is in Friuli, in an area where Italians state Carnielo people ( ancient Carni tribe ) live.........Italians still use the phrase for the area in question, basically the friulian alps, East of the Ladini people.

----------


## Huracan

> I do not know until Adriano does my results ........have you seen them?
> 
> You can compare yours with Puiatti ............I saw your name, but results for you are all stated as ?
> 
> maybe you got them privately.............but Puiatti is in Friuli, in an area where Italians state Carnielo people ( ancient Carni tribe ) live.........Italians still use the phrase for the area in question, basically the friulian alps, East of the Ladini people.


I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.

The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.

----------


## Sile

> I downloaded Adriano's 23andMe's results and I saw Puiatti's but not your's yet. On the Geno set of results, not all are listed as "?" just for certain markers...I do have "+" for some. I'll look at them with more detail later.
> 
> The Carni were either Gaulish (Celtic) or Venetic, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni. Evidence continues to suggest a possible Indo-European connection to CTS8862 and CTS11984.


Italian historians claim the Carni tribe ALWAYS lived in the central austrian alps.
English historians claim the Carni came from Northern Gascon area of South west france .........maybe Bordeaux

----------


## Huracan

That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.

----------


## Sile

> That means they are most definitely Celtic. Although we cannot state for certain that Puiatti descends from the Carni there is a possibility. Recent TMRCA calculations of mine continues to support a maybe even Celtic or at least Indo-European origin for CTS8862 and maybe even CTS11984. The current geographic ranges of CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ as well as the dates of our common ancestors (around 3,000 years ago, c. 1000 BCE) seem to coincide with their expansion events from Central Europe... Nevertheless, TMRCA estimates between us in the CTS8862 clade give a common ancestry only some 1,000+ years ago, which may hint at a Germanic connection. It's too early to tell for certain until we get more confirmed CTS8862+ and CTS11984+ individuals and their STR data.


agreed

maybe natgeno2 was correct in saying south german area

----------


## isatis

plz delete post

----------


## Huracan

Hello isatis,

If by "twin" you mean to delete this post because it is the same as the one started by user rene and the one you most recently commented on, then you are mistaken because this post is different. This post most relates to T-L446 and its subclades, as another user and I have been discussing for a year now. Also, I am not aware if regular members can delete posts. That might be in the power of administrators.

-KFundora

----------


## Sile

interesting about T

*T1a* *M70**/**Pages46/PF5662* found in M70+ men but undetermined if more precisely at M193 or M184 levels

The catalan tests , tested for only Pages46 and PF5662 which gives it the usual M70, ............it seems there might beanother split for T1a
ones with M184+ and M193+ in one group
and
others with M184+ and M193- in another group....................I am this one

Both would have M184+ and M70+

----------


## Huracan

I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.

Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.

----------


## Richard Serra

Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.

----------


## Richard Serra

I also need help deciphering the CTS, etc. numbers. Research papers and sources are appreciated.

----------


## Sile

> I thought you had said earlier that you were M184- as am I. We're both M272+. According to my results, I don't have M193 either.
> 
> Also, the 3.5 version of YFull's tree now provides TMRCAs for all the branches of T (and likely all other haplogroups) except for our clades: T-L446 and below.


correct, I had mine done at natgeno and send them under C.Morley ..I do have M184+ , but confirmed M193-..........it seems ftdna assume we all have M184+ because we are T , but they do not test it.
so...in ftdna it says *neither + or -* for M184

have you done 23andme .....if so, get felix programs which converts all your 23andme numbers into positive or negative SNP's.........private email me if you have problems 

below are all my SNP ...up to L446...green confirmed positive...red confirmed negative....others untested

----------


## Sile

> Introducing myself, I have my Y Group T-Z710 (M70, L299) - Maternal is J1d1b1. I'm curious as to any Sephardic connections. My last name is Serra, but is rumored to be originally, on the paternal side, Gabriel. This opened up a whole new interest in origins. Any help with research papers, sources, advice, etc. is sincerely appreciated.


hi, 

where you from in Italy , only gabriel is in italian riviera ......unless the surname is misspelt

----------


## Huracan

Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!

----------


## Sile

> Sile, I recently checked on the Y-DNA T composite tree that you linked a while back that was updated 28 Apr 2015. https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t
> 
> They for some reason updated the information for the dating of T-CTS8862 and 2 of its subclades! They state CTS8862 originated 4,500 years ago! Very recent!!


thanks , so 2485BC or also noted as 

2700–2200: EBA III ..................Early bronze-age 3 by archaeologists


You will also note, that we IIRC are both negative in the SNP's for the branches downstream from CTS8862.
We sit at this spot

I received a note from T project manager Gareth.

*I have done a bit more restructuring and have rearranged the groups so that all the most likely CTS8862 clusters are next to each other. Unfortunately, of all the names you mentioned, only Kevin Fundora has a confirmed CTS8862+ result. The genetic distance widens at 37 markers (matches at 12 markers aren't always an indicator of a close relationship). I will try to contact some of the others over the weekend.

Until we get more CTS8862+ results there isn't much for you to do except wait 


*I also discussed the DYS390=22 complex 
this site below has tested only 67markers or more markers and all , are European ( or USA ) except 1 "Anatolian turk "

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/600/

I also scanned all the ftdna T project for this #22 and again found all european except 1 in Anatolia . 
All are North European , except the Italian ones.

I suspect this number 22 was German in origin and settled in britain , it also went to Italy. The strange thing is , you are the only one from Iberia with this DYS390=22 that I have found.


The site I linked using 67 markers ............still gives me links with the italian with surname Da Lessio ( ftdna tested who will not join the project ) and a new one kit# 194479 German with name Daniel Hof circa 1610- 1663

----------


## Huracan

Yes 2485 BCE is consistent with Early Bronze Age Europe especially the Corded Ware culture of Central Europe, for which I am researching to see a link.

Of all the subclades of CTS8862 I could not find any positive SNPs in my raw data that placed me more downstream so we stay at this node. Before we had mentioned the interesting nature of the DYS390=22 for the individuals in our clade and I see its significance and I agree, it must have appeared in Germany or somewhere in Central Europe in association with the appearance of the CTS8862 SNP and then spread outward especially to the British Isles and Italy where our clade seems most prevalent. I may be the only Iberian with DYS390=22 _so far_. YFull has a Spaniard and Puerto Rican as being CTS8862 equivalent but may belong to the downstream T1a2b1a3 and T1a2b1a4 subclades marked in the composite tree as "Iberians" and "Hispanics" and we do not have their SNPs available.

----------


## Huracan

On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:
Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)Lippi (Arezzo, Italy) Dell Plain [Plain] (NY, USA)Deakin (Warwickshire, England)Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany)

On Ysearch:
Frush (MD, USA)Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)Russo (Naples, Italy)Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)Atwell (VA, USA)Owens (VA, USA)Sizemore (VA, USA)Stockdell (VA, USA)McKee (SC, USA)Mitchell (NC, USA)Hill (GA, USA)Powell (VA, USA)Fakes (England?)Milligan (NC, USA)Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)Riols (Riols, France)Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)Santagata (Molise, Italy)
as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above

I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.

----------


## Sile

> On SMGF, 5 of my top matches for the maximum SNPs I could compare on the site had DYS390=22:
> Martins (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil)Lippi (Arezzo, Italy) Dell Plain [Plain] (NY, USA)Deakin (Warwickshire, England)Miller [Mueller] (Hesse, Germany) 
> 
> On Ysearch:
> Frush (MD, USA)Frush [Froschauer] (Germany)Russo (Naples, Italy)Carvalho [Pinto] (São Paulo, Brazil)Madrigal (Madrid, Spain)Atwell (VA, USA)Owens (VA, USA)Sizemore (VA, USA)Stockdell (VA, USA)McKee (SC, USA)Mitchell (NC, USA)Hill (GA, USA)Powell (VA, USA)Fakes (England?)Milligan (NC, USA)Rodríguez (Puerto Rico)Riols (Riols, France)Rossi (Alvignano, Italy)Santagata (Molise, Italy) 
> as well as the other confirmed CTS8862+ and several individuals with the same surnames as above
> 
> I will analyze the Hispanic and Brazilian individuals in terms of TMRCA to see any connections.


Are all these on ysearch CTS8862+ confirmed?

DaLessio is also confirmed as CTS8862+ in Ftdna ............the name is Da Lessio ( or Lessio as Da is meaning of from ) ..........Americanisation always joins these ( poor fellows ) into one surname ...............I explained in previous posts this dalessio who migrated to USA in previous posts

anyway, this Lessio is a relative of mine ......original birth document below:
States: Department of Tagliamento province of Treviso, Canton of Treviso, community of Treviso, District of Lancenigo on the 7th of February 1806 , etce etc..Giovanni Lessio 31 years old had a daughter he named Maria ..............mothe rof daughter is Catterina Vettori

I might be wrong if this dalessio was originally spelled D'Alessio ..........then I have no link



And below, Natgeno is the only people that have predicted my ydna and mtdna





BTW, I was given another who I am related to , from Italy, Marche region from town called genga

Piangerelli from Genga, Italy kit# 8JJY7
Have you anything on this person?

I do see on ysearch, he is the only person which matches my DYS464 at 11-11-11-11 ................but from what I read DYS464 is usually part of an option to be excluded in search sites

----------


## Huracan

None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade. 

Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??

Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.

----------


## Sile

> None of those were CTS8862+ then again many individuals don't update their Y-DNA info even when SNPs and branches are revised. So as of now, those were just DYS390=22 but we are not sure if they are part of our clade. 
> 
> Are all these new individuals you're finding that you are related to CTS8862+??
> 
> Do you have a "story" on Nat Geno?? Because I do and I am not sure if I see yours. The two users closest to me are claremontbirdman (CTS11984+, CTS8862-) and robazza (CTS11984+, CTS8862?) but Nat Geno grouped us with other individuals with stories that are of subclades of T1a1 branches for some odd reason.



My son put the story on Nat geno for me using our sopranomme of Robazza ............sopranomme is a name used when many families in a town had the same surname , so we have very very old birth and marriage certificates for my family line that has after my surname it has " detto Robazza" ( detto means *some say* ) . This system is done in a very high percentage in North-East Italy ( unsure about other parts of Italy )
Robazza for my part was a line of my family line was attached via a maternal part of my paternal side in the 18th century...................the oldest I found for Robazza surname proper is that they where merchants in Venice in 1345.


I am unsure if the 2 new individuals , Hof and Piengerelli have CTS8862 ..............but both are zero GD from me, but so is your Martin, Lippi and Miller ( mueller )...BTW, Lippi comes from Brescia originally ( east Lombard )

----------


## Huracan

Oh I see, so you were Robazza all along... we are the only CTS8862+ in Nat Geno that have a story.

Hof and Piengerelli are at 0 GD for how many markers? 67? 

I did the comparisons to other Iberians who were DYS390=22 and possibly CTS8862+ and I noticed that the Spaniard-Hispanics were most distant from me, followed by Portuguese-Brazilians, and then an Azorean with a Galician surname. The TMRCAs are of course relative and can change depending on the reference but this seems to suggest a Galician origin for my paternal line.

SMGF matches (DYS390=22, all)
*MARTINS* #1 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 24/26, 434 years (ca. 1561)
*MARTINS* #2 (Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) – 23/26, 651 years (ca. 1344)

Ysearch matches (DYS390=22, all)
*MADRIGAL* (Madrid, Spain) – 25/37, 990 years (ca. 1005)
*RODRÍGUEZ* (Puerto Rico) – 24/37, 1,080 years (ca. 915)
*CARVALHO* (PINTO São Paulo, Brazil) – 29/37, 690 years (ca. 1305)

FTDNA matches (DYS390=22[?], all)
*LEMAS* (Azores, Portugal) – 33/37, 360 years (ca. 1635) 

I will look into the other individuals with which we match and see how distantly we are all related. This way, I can attempt to associate geographically the possible migratory paths of our branch and when it occurred. Because TMRCA for STRs is different than for SNPs.

----------


## Sile

I will look forward to it

Pingerelli is 67 marker tested 

and hof is 37 marker tested..........below is his ysearch ID
FQX7R

he is DYS390=22


this family must have tested another member , this is the other ysearch ID
Z9PTC

----------


## Huracan

But Piangerelli is not DYS390=22, he is 23...

I used all the DYS390=22 individuals who were matches to the main 5 CTS8862+ (you, I, Knox, Dalessio, and Schales). I made a tree using McGee's Y-Utility, PHYLIP data, and Kitsch.exe:
proposed cts8862 tree.png

This can serve as a tentative DYS390=22/CTS8662 tree but I will do one for just the confirmed CTS8862 individuals

----------


## Sile

> But Piangerelli is not DYS390=22, he is 23...


correct, so I do not know why I match this person from this "expert"




> I used all the DYS390=22 individuals who were matches to the main 5 CTS8862+ (you, I, Knox, Dalessio, and Schales). I made a tree using McGee's Y-Utility, PHYLIP data, and Kitsch.exe:
> proposed cts8862 tree.png
> 
> This can serve as a tentative DYS390=22/CTS8662 tree but I will do one for just the confirmed CTS8862 individuals



ok

You have all the CTS8862 I was given by this "expert" except Piangerelli


where is Riols from?..................I have a riols in Ftdna matches who is from an island off Atlantic France near the region of Vendee.


Cna you add Daniel Hof , he is DYS390=22

----------


## Huracan

Riols' info from Ysearch (U34WX) states earliest paternal ancestor in Riols, Hérault, Languedoc-Roussillon, France about 1450. The surname info provided also mentions de Fonclare and that is also the name of the testee/contact person... so I believe the real surname might be de Fonclare and not Riols. 

I didn't include Hof because he was missing DYS389ii but all of us have 30 for that STR so I will substitute that for his missing STR and include him in the next one as I finalize the relations.

----------


## Huracan

Here is just the confirmed CTS8862+ including Puiatti (DYS390=23) which was stated to be CTS8862+

small cts8862 tree.png

I tried using Mike Maglio's biogeographical multilateration method that he devised to try and devise a migration pattern for our branch but his method assumes Neolithic or at least ancient migration intervals of 1 km/yr and seems to work for most scenarios he has encountered. Except that these scenarios included more common and well-known haplogroups like I and G and included individuals that were close matches and most of the CTS8862 branch is distantly related.
originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/01/getting-more-from-your-genetic-testing.html

----------


## Sile

> Here is just the confirmed CTS8862+ including Puiatti (DYS390=23) which was stated to be CTS8862+
> 
> Attachment 7218
> 
> I tried using Mike Maglio's biogeographical multilateration method that he devised to try and devise a migration pattern for our branch but his method assumes Neolithic or at least ancient migration intervals of 1 km/yr and seems to work for most scenarios he has encountered. Except that these scenarios included more common and well-known haplogroups like I and G and included individuals that were close matches and most of the CTS8862 branch is distantly related.
> originhunters.blogspot.com/2014/01/getting-more-from-your-genetic-testing.html



Puiatti is a friulian/ladin person , IIRC what squecco told me

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladin_people


I am surprised you are closer to dalessio than myself, yet dalessio is number 3 on my matches and schales is number 11 ( all zero GD with me )

BTW.....Schales has a book on his family history in the USA

----------


## Huracan

Where and how can I access Schales' family history information? It would help in pinpointing one more paternal origin for our branch.

----------


## Sile

> Where and how can I access Schales' family history information? It would help in pinpointing one more paternal origin for our branch.


https://books.google.com.au/books?id...ed=0CBwQ6AEwAA

check my post #166 .............it states the same guy and the link I mentioned.


same family furthe back in time
http://www.myheritage.com/names/heinrich_schales

before 1750 , their surname was Schullus


The only link I can see so far for me is a marriage with a MOSER
807 moser surnames in Italy.

*682* Trentino A.A.
39 Veneto
22 Lombardia

In Italy they state Moser is German
*Surname meaning for "Moser"*
South German: topographic name for someone who lived near a peat bog, Middle High German _mos

Found In ULM 


Back to Schales.........the German origin is in Hesse and the older origin is in Pfalz_

----------


## Sile

@Fundora

Another CTS8862 as stated by project manager on W/E................with DYS390=22 ............Kit#386660

his STR in one of the other posts

http://boards.ancestry.com/localitie...1277.1/mb.ashx

----------


## Huracan

Were they confirmed CTS8862 or just DYS390=22? Because T-CTS11984* individuals are also DYS390=22 (i.e. Espinoza from Nat Geno/Ysearch), unless they may have been upgraded to CTS8862...

I am currently analyzing only the confirmed and predicted CTS8862 from the T FTDNA Project (21 individuals) to best interpret and predict our migrational history and connections. On Ysearch they may match but I do not know if they are CTS8862 or not. Anyways, if they still match with the slowest STRs, they should fit into the tree the same as they did in my previous ones that took into account all the STRs. I even did one for those 10 that tested 67 markers, which should be more accurate.

----------


## Sile

> Were they confirmed CTS8862 or just DYS390=22? Because T-CTS11984* individuals are also DYS390=22 (i.e. Espinoza from Nat Geno/Ysearch), unless they may have been upgraded to CTS8862...
> 
> I am currently analyzing only the confirmed and predicted CTS8862 from the T FTDNA Project (21 individuals) to best interpret and predict our migrational history and connections. On Ysearch they may match but I do not know if they are CTS8862 or not. Anyways, if they still match with the slowest STRs, they should fit into the tree the same as they did in my previous ones that took into account all the STRs. I even did one for those 10 that tested 67 markers, which should be more accurate.


yes confirmed CTS8862 with DYS390=22

will send you info privately to what the project stated

----------


## Huracan

I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
37 markers.png
This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years. 

Here is the 67 one:
67 markers.png

----------


## Huracan

There appears to be distinct Ashkenazi Jewish cluster within our clade but it most likely is the result of an early convert to Judaism because the rest of our clade has no history of Jewish tradition.

----------


## Sile

> I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
> 37 markers.png
> This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years. 
> 
> Here is the 67 one:
> 67 markers.png


The project manager believes that CTS8862 was slightly younger than 4500 ....more like 4000

----------


## Sile

> I will include them in my revamped analysis of CTS8862. But the one I did yesterday using the slowest STRs and the ones Y-Utility includes (especially in the 67 set) showed a TMRCA for our clade at around 4,500 years ago just like Banks' tree shows. Of course it shows highly increased values in regards to the TMRCA of smaller subgroupings such as Knox and other individuals of shared surnames but it appears more accurate and realistic. The 67 tree shows some interesting results as well. Here they are:
> 37 markers.png
> This is the 37 marker one and the values are in generations. Multiply them by 2 to get the actual generational distance and then I multiplied that by 25 and 30 for a possible range in years. 
> 
> Here is the 67 one:
> 67 markers.png


in your 37 marker chart, it seems odd that I am distant from many of my zero genetic distance FTDNA people of:

Hill
HillSC
Fundora
Schales
Jones
D'Alessio

----------


## Sile

> There appears to be distinct Ashkenazi Jewish cluster within our clade but it most likely is the result of an early convert to Judaism because the rest of our clade has no history of Jewish tradition.


interesting

my tests show
Ftdna = zero ashkenazi
23andme = 0.3% ashkenazi ....................but phasing indicates not paternal, so it a woman who married into my paternal line

----------


## Huracan

Sile remember,

Those were your 12 or 25 marker comparison, not your 37. So at 37 markers they will appear much more distant because more markers are taken into account

----------


## Huracan

> interesting
> 
> my tests show
> Ftdna = zero ashkenazi
> 23andme = 0.3% ashkenazi ....................but phasing indicates not paternal, so it a woman who married into my paternal line


Even if our clade was Ashkenazi, given our geographic and genetic distance our "Ashkenazi Jewish" admixture would have disappeared a long time ago. But our clade is not Ashkenazi.

----------


## Sile

> Even if our clade was Ashkenazi, given our geographic and genetic distance our "Ashkenazi Jewish" admixture would have disappeared a long time ago. But our clade is not Ashkenazi.


thanks


BTW, on other T thread , Samaniego states he is also L446 ( from Spain )

wonder if Samaniego is made up name , because, *ego endings* on surnames are western Veneto ( Verona , Vicenza) while *igo endings* are in Eastern Veneto ( Venice and Padua )

Martinego ( vicenza ) 

Barbarigo ( venice )

----------


## Huracan

Yes, I noticed and I responded to him to help. Samaniego is a surname emanating from Álava, a province of the Basque Country where his paternal line originates and it was adopted as a surname after the town named Samaniego in Álava. So it is most certainly an Iberian surname and makes the origin and spread of L446 and its downstream clades more intriguing.

----------


## Sile

*T12b1a CTS8489*(18050535 G->A ) or *CTS8862*(18246590 G->T)  4.5 KY

 • •••*•*••*T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399* (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a2** Pages113*(2713589 G->A)or*S17120* (15426389 A->C )

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a3 Z33764* (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a4 CTS1080* (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY

• •••*•*•*T12b1b Pages11*(14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup

My results 
Green positive tested
Red negative tested
Lilac untested

----------


## Sile

@ fundora

I just received another zero GD with me , he is 
 Timothy Brennan who is CTS8862 and tested up to 67 markers

----------


## Huracan

Sile, 

Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy. 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S28-U152

----------


## Sile

> Sile, 
> 
> Yes I got the same notification. He is 0 distance away from me at 12 markers but not beyond that. His surname suggests an Irish patrilineal ancestry, consistent with my refined Y-STR phylogenetic analysis pointing to a possible Italo-Celtic distribution of our line. It might correspond to the Hallstatt dispersal and be a minor paternal lineage brought by the Celts to Iberia, the British Isles, and the rest of Western and Northern Europe as well as the Italics into Italy. 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S28-U152


Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section

----------


## Huracan

> Brennan comes in at 25 markers for me and is placed as a german in ancestral origins section


Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.

----------


## Sile

> Oh interesting... since his terminal SNP is CTS8862 and still is quite close to you at 25 markers he would be a good addition to my TMRCA calculations. Interesting that on his ancestral origins section he is listed as German, perhaps the Brennan surname was changed from a prior German one or there was an instance of non-paternity along the line.


@fundora

Latest information from the T project team

*The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in. 


*Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

Edit- Yfull tree came in with 2200ybp for CTS862

since ybp = 1950 then the range of CTS8862 is .........formed 950BC and the TMRCA is 350BC

T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15400 ybp, TMRCA 10800 ybpinfo
T-L131*T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
id:YF02949*SAU [SA-01]*id:YF03124*SAU [SA-02]* T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybpinfo
T-Y6033*T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 28 SNPsformed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:NA20758*TSI* T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
T-CTS8489*
id:HG01530*IBS*id:HG01051*PUR* T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04203newid:YF04232new

----------


## Sile

some comments from geneticists

*Interestingly, haplogroup T-M184, which is relatively rare in other Near Eastern populations, as well as in three of the Armenian collections tested here, represents the most prominent descent in Sasun, comprising 20.1% of the samples. The presence of this haplogroup in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, by contrast, is more limited, composing only 3.6%, 6.3% and 3.9%, respectively, of the individuals from those collections.[...]Sasun, however, exhibits statistically significant divergence from the remaining Armenian populations, most likely as the result of the prominence in Sasun of lineages (T-M184 and R2a-M124) found at substantially lower frequencies in Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van.*
*Kristian J Herrera, 2012


*
*K* is found at 6/19, if M70- but M184+, then could be 84.2%. Bauris are thought to be descendants of a native tribe of the Central Highlands before the Aryan invasion, then as Bauris have not been well assimilated and have not participated satisfactorily in the new Aryan society, the Bauris ended up being seen as "low caste". They are at "halfway" between the old Bauri tribal and the new Aryan society lifestyle.**,* "High Resolution Phylogeographic Map of Y-Chromosomes Reveal the Genetic Signatures of Pleistocene Origin of Indian Populations"


Biggest Eurpoean areas with T-M184 ( xM70) is Leon Spain with 7.7% and Ossetian irons with 4.8%



Below is to do with the 2 x T1a in Neolithic Germany*These borders most probably were a result of the spread of different groups without close social or biological kinship ties to one another who came in to close contact as a consequence of the LBK colonization pattern. In fact, because the LBK was the first complete Neolithic culture in Central Europe, today all farmers of this time and region are classified as members of the LBK by default, regardless of how these people defined themselves and how they differentiated themselves from their contemporaries.
**Meyer et al., 2015*

----------


## Sile

Issog T November 2015

*T* *M184**/Page34/USP9Y+3178*, CTS150, CTS482/PF5596, CTS493/PF5597, CTS573, CTS3585/PF5618, CTS3837, CTS4014, CTS4652/PF5547, CTS5035, CTS5268/PF7471, CTS5336/PF5626, CTS6045/PF5629, CTS6275/PF7447, CTS6887/PF5637, CTS7164, CTS7263, CTS7426, CTS7749/L810/PF5640, CTS8247, CTS8994, CTS10416/PF5655, CTS10700, CTS10879, CTS11569, CTS12657, L445, L452, L455/PF5670, M193, M272/PF5667, Page129, PF5529, PF5537, PF5568, PF5587, PF5590, PF5603, PF5607, PF5613, PF5661, PF5674, PF5678, PF7460, PF7464, PF7466, PF7480
• *T1* *L206*, L490
• • *T1a* *M70/Page46/PF5662*, CTS2336, CTS5332.1/PF7472.1, CTS5364, CTS5987, CTS6004, CTS6214/PF5631, CTS6375, CTS6577, CTS6805/PF5636, CTS8004/PF5641, CTS8397/PF5646, CTS9268/PF5651, CTS9308, CTS10278, CTS11054, CTS11746, Page78, PF5518, PF5592, PF5602, PF5604, PF5608, PF5659, PF5660, PF5664, PF5666, PF7463, PF7465, PF7481
• • • *T1a1* *L162/Page21*, *L454*, CTS484, CTS550, CTS3271, CTS5542/PF5627, CTS5690, CTS8065/PF5642, CTS11078, CTS11556, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, PF5567, PF5593, PF5594, PF5658, FGC3945.2/Z526.2
• • • • *T1a1a* *L208/Page2*, CTS931, CTS1818, CTS2611, CTS4085/PF5620, CTS4916, CTS6000/PF7446, CTS7169/PF7448, CTS9163, CTS9506/PF7450, L905
• • • • • *T1a1a1* *CTS2214*
• • • • • • *T1a1a1a* *Z709*
• • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1* *FGC3988/Z710*, *CTS8512*, Z713, Z714
• • • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1a* *P77*, CTS2860, CTS7225/L907, CTS11968, CTS660/L906
• • • • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1a1* *CTS6507*
• • • • • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1a1a* *CTS9882*
• • • • • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1a1b* *CTS6280*
• • • • • • • • *T1a1a1a1b* *Y6409*
• • • • • *T1a1a2* *P321*
• • • • • • *T1a1a2a* *P317*
• • • • • *T1a1a3* *PF7443*, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458
• • • *T1a2* *L131*, CTS2157
• • • • *T1a2a* *P322*, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* *L446*, CTS11796, CTS12108
• • • • • *T1a2b1* *CTS3767*, CTS11984
• • • • • • *T1a2b1a* *CTS8862*, CTS9984
• • • *T1a3* *L1255*
• *T2* _PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

Green I am confirmed positive
Red I am confirmed negative
_

----------


## Sile

more info below form the T project team of Ftdna

*I anticipate that the next update of YFull will add an additional layer between L446 and CTS3767. If it does, I will replicate it on the ISOGG tree.
T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.*

----------


## Huracan

YFull was updated (version 3.18) and a new branch has been introduced between L446 and CTS11984, very interesting:

T-L131: formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybp
..T-P322: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp
..T-Y6033: formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybp
...T-CTS933: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
....T-CTS54: formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybp
.....*T-CTS8489: formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp < we are here*
......T-Y17493: formed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybp
...T-Y7381: formed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp

The new branch (added in the previous update, 3.17) below ours is where the Scottish individuals of our clade reside, predominated by the Knoxes.

----------


## Huracan

What is very interesting is the young age of our clade and its "close" ties to clades that consist of all Near & Middle Easterners, especially Saudis which are being tested a lot. The same goes for P322 which isn't our clade but it also contains Europeans (mostly Northern Europeans: Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, and English; with one reported Mexican) on one end and then Egyptian, Saudis, and Palestinians (in P327, downstream of P322) on the other.

----------


## Sile

> What is very interesting is the young age of our clade and its "close" ties to clades that consist of all Near & Middle Easterners, especially Saudis which are being tested a lot. The same goes for P322 which isn't our clade but it also contains Europeans (mostly Northern Europeans: Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, and English; with one reported Mexican) on one end and then Egyptian, Saudis, and Palestinians (in P327, downstream of P322) on the other.


I do not know what you mean with this paragraph

----------


## Huracan

What I was saying was that both P322 and the subclades of L446 are either found in Europe or the Middle East, especially among Saudis.

----------


## Sile

> What I was saying was that both P322 and the subclades of L446 are either found in Europe or the Middle East, especially among Saudis.


ok, but looking only at our branch

• • •T1a2 L131 (19372808 C->T)
• • • •T1a2a F2376.2 (17077206 G->A) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • •T1a2a1 P322 (14000929 G->T) Germans, Dutch, Norwegians, Yemeni Jews, Saudis
 [A study by Mendez et al. found 4% of Palestinians in a P322 subroup (P327 18747405 T->C),
 but ISOGG designates P327 as a private SNP]
• • • •T1a2b L446 (16660785 C->T)
• • • • •T1a2b1 CTS3767 (15164167 G->C)
• • • • • •T1a2b1a CTS8489(18050535 G->A) orCTS8862 (18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY 
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399 (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a2 Pages113(2713589 G->A)orS17120 (15426389 A->C)
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a3 Z33764 (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a4 CTS1080 (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1b Pages11(14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • •T1b2b1c CTS4571(15719140 C->T) Tuscans  4.5 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1d Y7381(7150898 A->G)
• • • • • • •T1b2b1d1 Y7438(14196904 T->C)
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1a Y11077 (22909353 G->C) Saudis
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b Y7393 (21509927 C->T) 
• • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1 Y7468 (17395593 T->G) 
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1a Y7430 (22003091 A->G) Saudis 
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1b Y9326 (22470399 T->C) Saudis 

we avoid the P322 branch ..........we are both negative for it anyway

As the t project states, we also avoid the saudis, because the T only arrived in arabia about 1400 years ago as he stated and also confirmed by Yfull team.

I am also negative fro the branches of L25, pages113, cts1080 and pages11 .................I am left with Z33764 to test


if we look at yfull then we have 


T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybpinfo
id:YF04665*KWT [KW-AH]*newT-L131*T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
id:YF03124*SAU [SA-02]*id:YF02949*SAU [SA-01]* T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpinfo
T-Y6033*T-CTS933S24464 * CTS6071 * CTS933... 3 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
T-CTS933*
id:YF04719*IRQ [IQ-BA]*newid:YF04638*EGY [EG-ASN]*new T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 22 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:NA20758*TSI* T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
T-CTS8489*
id:HG01051*PUR*id:HG01530*IBS* T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232id:YF04203*USA [US-NC]* 


T-Y7381FGC29140/Y7391 * Y9423 * FGC23037/Y7447... 75 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybpinfo
T-Y7381*
id:YF02353*SAU [SA-01]* T-Y7438FGC23024/Y7438formed 1400 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybpinfo
T-Y7438*
id:YF03736*BHR* T-Y11077FGC29152/Y11077formed 850 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybpinfo
id:YF02627*SAU [SA-01]*id:YF02215*SAU* T-Y7393FGC23047/Y7393formed 850 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybpinfo
id:YF02309*SAU [SA-01]*T-Y7393*
id:YF02755*SAU [SA-01]*id:YF02204*SAU* 






Note = YBP = 1 January 1950


so our line at CTS 8862 is year 700BC ............the line under that y17493 in the USA ( which is my Hill, Perry and Powell "relatives" ) is dated 1575 AD 

The line CTS933 confuses me.........are we part of it or not ..............I have no results for any of those SNP's in that line . The 2 samples are Persian Basrah or Egyptian Aswan.


BTW, my fathers sample is stated by some T members to contain Galician Spain and Vendee French markers..........I am still checking this out ..........my father has 15% less Italian than me ?!?!

----------


## Sile

Info below by T project in regards to our line CTS8862

*but because you are CTS8862+ you can assume you are positive for
- CTS933 and all equivalent SNPs
- CTS54 and all equivalent SNPs
You can't tell whether you are positive for all the SNPs equivalent to CTS8862 (my bet is all or most of them) and you don't know which SNPs you are positive for of those shared by the two T-Y17493 kits (I suspect it would be very few, possibly none).

The two T-Y17493 kits are related in genealogical time as they share a surname but they don't have a paper trail to confirm this. 1500-1650 AD is not an unreasonable estimate, I wouldn't be confident to be more precise than that.*

----------


## LombardsofItaly

I have T-CTS11984 and L131. 

Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on. 

However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records. 

There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards. 

When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.

----------


## Tomenable

Sorry wrong thread.

----------


## Huracan

> I have T-CTS11984 and L131. 
> 
> Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on. 
> 
> However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records. 
> 
> There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards. 
> 
> When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.


Nice to meet another CTS11984+! So you're saying your paternal line comes from Lombardy? Interesting, another Italian in our clade. I was researching your Pandolfi surname and I came across this: 
*Pandolfi*, cognomeitaliano di origine longobarda (deriva dal nome *Pandulf* ; italiano : Pandolfo), importato in Italia dai Longobardi (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandolfi)
This makes sense based on what you said. If this is the case, then our clade might be Germanic especially since recent time estimates on our SNPs go only about 2,800 years ago (for CTS11984).

----------


## Huracan

If you tested with Nat Geno, have you uploaded a story? If you do, it can pop up among the other men who are CTS11984+ in that section and it can show how closely related you are to them. I have one and so does the other user in this thread, Sile.

Also, have you tested for your Y-STRs? They can help show closely related you are to another male within the same clade sometimes within hundreds of years. I have been running time estimates and phylogenetic trees to figure out how our clades are related and dispersed/migrated and STR info is key.

----------


## Sile

> I have T-CTS11984 and L131. 
> 
> Nat. Geo said it was Northern European. Which match our surname...Pandolfi. Which is German for Banner-Wolf. The /i/ is an Italian add on. 
> 
> However, my family has been in Italy for at least 220 years according to church records. 
> 
> There is an old old record of the Lombards which Pandolfi is known to be, that describes their migration that ended in Italy around 900AD. I don't remember the name of the book...but I think it is simple like Lombards. 
> 
> When I saw your haplo group I was exited. Based on the surname search I did...there are few males with Lombard surnames left.


hi 

you are one step before Fundora and myself

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

this tree is from end of November 2015

----------


## LombardsofItaly

> If you tested with Nat Geno, have you uploaded a story? If you do, it can pop up among the other men who are CTS11984+ in that section and it can show how closely related you are to them. I have one and so does the other user in this thread, Sile.
> 
> Also, have you tested for your Y-STRs? They can help show closely related you are to another male within the same clade sometimes within hundreds of years. I have been running time estimates and phylogenetic trees to figure out how our clades are related and dispersed/migrated and STR info is key.


Hi, 

Just uploaded a "story". 

The German thing also explains the blue eyes in that line. My very very Italian g.grandfather had such blue eyes they were violet, with auburn hair. 

Does Nat. Geo automatically test for Y-STRs? or do I do that elsewhere? Not sure what they are? 

Great tree, Sile ! Does "one step before.." mean that you have one more marker than my line? 

_How is T-CTS11984 and L131 related?_

----------


## Sile

> Hi, 
> 
> Just uploaded a "story". 
> 
> The German thing also explains the blue eyes in that line. My very very Italian g.grandfather had such blue eyes they were violet, with auburn hair. 
> 
> Does Nat. Geo automatically test for Y-STRs? or do I do that elsewhere? Not sure what they are? 
> 
> Great tree, Sile ! Does "one step before.." mean that you have one more marker than my line? 
> ...


with your marker ...........you will definitely have to have L131
then you will bypass P322 and have L446 to get to CTS11984

we are one step further on than you............fundora and I both have CTS11984.............but we also have one step more

My CTS8862 was found in natgeno...........since they did not find it in yours then your marker stops at CTS11984


in nat geo.......go to your download area and download your markers................there should be about 14500 markers

----------


## Sile

> Hi, 
> 
> Just uploaded a "story". 
> 
> The German thing also explains the blue eyes in that line. My very very Italian g.grandfather had such blue eyes they were violet, with auburn hair. 
> 
> Does Nat. Geo automatically test for Y-STRs? or do I do that elsewhere? Not sure what they are? 
> 
> Great tree, Sile ! Does "one step before.." mean that you have one more marker than my line? 
> ...


see if you can still transfer your natgeno to ftdna for free.................then you will have a natgeno account and also a ftdna account where you can be placed in the T group
write to Gareth Henson from the ftdna T project on any further questions once you transfer your data

----------


## Huracan

> Hi, 
> 
> Just uploaded a "story". 
> 
> The German thing also explains the blue eyes in that line. My very very Italian g.grandfather had such blue eyes they were violet, with auburn hair. 
> 
> Does Nat. Geo automatically test for Y-STRs? or do I do that elsewhere? Not sure what they are? 
> 
> Great tree, Sile ! Does "one step before.." mean that you have one more marker than my line? 
> ...


Is your username "singaSong"? If not, make sure you click the "show your story" option where you first typed it.

----------


## Sile

New Isogg T updated 7th of January .........my Positive L490 which takes me from T to T1 is now under investigation ..............the only other one L206 which does the same , I am negative for

BTW
my Mtdna marker has its 5th member only .............from Tramonti di Sopra in the friulian mountains with surname of Calderan, Vedlin and Muin. I have already spoke to the ancestor currently living in central france.

that's 4 from italy ( 3 x NI and 1 x SI ) and 1 from sweden

----------


## Sile

In Ftdna , another two testers are bracketed with us, one from Italy and the other unknown.........................kit numbers are

N164010

N145191

Have found no info on them...........I think they are natgeno testers

----------


## Huracan

> In Ftdna , another two testers are bracketed with us, one from Italy and the other unknown.........................kit numbers are
> 
> N164010
> 
> N145191
> 
> Have found no info on them...........I think they are natgeno testers


Where do you see them @Sile? I can't find them in the list of results from the T project...

----------


## Sile

> Where do you see them @Sile? I can't find them in the list of results from the T project...


yes they disappeared again, like last time..............*I will take a snippet next time
*
One was surname Greco is is common in all of Italy, the other only said Italy.


have a try at this new chinese site, for Audna.. its free

https://www.wegene.com/en/

it will eventually give you health reports as well once they convert from chinese to English

----------


## Huracan

Ok now I think I remember one of those kits appearing and disappearing within a day from our grouping on the T project site. It was the Italian one that had very little info besides origin. It is interesting that quite a bit of CTS8862 individuals are Italian.

----------


## Huracan

Also! Checked the Genographic Project for any new member-submitted stories from our line and there is a new one! The username is Fmaldonadocosta, I wonder if there is a way I could contact him. He is Peruvian and writes there is not much exact information known about his paternal line except that it begins in Poland and France, migrated to the U.K. then to "North America" (I'm presuming the U.S. or Canada), then to northern Peru. Very interesting!

----------


## Sile

> Also! Checked the Genographic Project for any new member-submitted stories from our line and there is a new one! The username is Fmaldonadocosta, I wonder if there is a way I could contact him. He is Peruvian and writes there is not much exact information known about his paternal line except that it begins in Poland and France, migrated to the U.K. then to "North America" (I'm presuming the U.S. or Canada), then to northern Peru. Very interesting!


Surname looks Portuguese

looks like donado Costa ...............which I wrote to a long time ago ...............if it is him, he states he is from northern Portugal next ot Galicia Spain

----------


## Huracan

I thought his surname was "Maldonado Costa" but sometimes it's hard to tell based on usernames. If it is Donado Costa then do you remember if he too was CTS8862? Trying to make a connection...
If this NatGeno user is the same person then there is helps support my hypothesis that my line originated in Galicia/Portugal.

----------


## Sile

> Ok now I think I remember one of those kits appearing and disappearing within a day from our grouping on the T project site. It was the Italian one that had very little info besides origin. It is interesting that quite a bit of CTS8862 individuals are Italian.


they are back again



Do you ignore the "red" coded DYS .............ie, the fast mutating ones?

----------


## Huracan

I was just about to post saying they reappeared. The fast ones should usually be ignored

----------


## Huracan

> they are back again
> 
> Do you ignore the "red" coded DYS .............ie, the fast mutating ones?


Actually it depends. The first STR phylogenies I did I got TMRCA estimates in the 2,000+ ybp range similar to Yfull's current estimates. When I ignored the fastest ones and used the slowest ones only, I got TMRCA estimates in the 4,000+ ybp range similar to this site we discussed earlier https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

----------


## Sile

> Actually it depends. The first STR phylogenies I did I got TMRCA estimates in the 2,000+ ybp range similar to Yfull's current estimates. When I ignored the fastest ones and used the slowest ones only, I got TMRCA estimates in the 4,000+ ybp range similar to this site we discussed earlier https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t


Great ...........I also get correct dating .......even the Carolina's T-Ydna members ( USA ). date is very accurate .....this is their branch *T1a2b1a1a* _Y17493 ....all dated from the 16th century when the marker was born ...in the USA_




Have a question .............have you been tested for* Z33764 ?.................I have used RED text for all the SNP I tested for and negative for
*I have not tested for Z33764 ....................I was told it was from the Balearic islands marker, but when I search the 18% of T ydna from there , 99% are from the T-162 branch ( not ours ).

*T1a2b1a** CTS8489*(18050535 G->A) or *CTS8862*(18246590 G->T)  4.5 KY  • •••
*•*••*T1a2b1a1** L25/PF5345/S399* (19136822 T->C)FTDNA subgroup

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a2**Pages113*(2713589 G->A)or*S17120* (15426389 A->C )

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a3** Z33764* (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY

• •••*•*••*T1a2b1a4** CTS1080* (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY

• •••*•*•*T1b2b1b**Pages11* (14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup

• •••*•*•*T1b2b1c**CTS4571*(15719140 C->T) Tuscans  4.5 KY

----------


## Huracan

I have never been tested for that SNP but I am negative for L25, the SNP above it, so I should not be positive for it either.

----------


## Sile

> I have never been tested for that SNP but I am negative for L25, the SNP above it, so I should not be positive for it either.


Yes , same as yourself..........looks like we have reached the end of the line for now with our CTS8862 @4500yo

what are we separated by ?...2000years?

----------


## Huracan

But I do not know if 4,500 years is the accurate age or the one YFull provides, which is 2,200 years...

----------


## Sile

> But I do not know if 4,500 years is the accurate age or the one YFull provides, which is 2,200 years...


sorry....i was not clear

I meant that the 4500 for our marker is a very accurate figure IMO and

the 2000 years was my estimate between ourselves based on STR difference between each other...........do you think this number is when we could have split from each other or was it more?..............I think we are 10 difference in STR

----------


## Sile

@Fundora

Below is another data base of only 67 markers or more tested.

These are the ones that match our DYS390=22



Check if any are close to yourself

----------


## Huracan

This is with semargl right? I am closest to T8WMY (Russo on ysearch) followed by two UK N41050 and 38362 and DG4TT (Milligan on ysearch)...

----------


## Sile

> This is with semargl right? I am closest to T8WMY (Russo on ysearch) followed by two UK N41050 and 38362 and DG4TT (Milligan on ysearch)...


yes and thanks

I also have weird closeness in ysearch with:
286444 Christian Maurer from southern Romania
and
194479 Daniel Hoff from Wurtenburg Germany ( sometimes uses the surname Smelser ( Smelzer ) from Tyrol ) 

I do not get your connections

----------


## Sile

@KF

with the new ftdna revamp in matches recently, I received two more matches

francesco Miotto and another with surname Ulrich

in my family tree 
in the 19th century I have ( registry documents)

vittorio Miotto from Arcade` Veneto , Italy married Rosa Arman
her father married a Ulrich ..........but I cannot see a connection


did you receive any updates?

----------


## Teaford

I had my brother's DNA tested a few years back and we've been reclassified several times. T-L131, T-PAGES00011 and now it looks like we are probably L446+ CTS11984 and maybe S27463. 

I sent a question in to the administrators of the T group over on FTDNA because it just seems so weird to me to be the 'only' T-PAGES00011 for so long and here is Gareth's reply - btw, I hope the BIG Y sale is a really good one this year.

Hello Susan

As far as I can tell your brother is the only T-PAGES00011 in the database. PAGES00011 was originally discovered in haplogroup A and when searching I found a PAGES00011+ example in haplogroup R. It therefore appears to be a recurrent SNP and possibly unreliable. I strongly suspect that when FTDNA added it to their tree a few years ago the person analysing the data made the fundamental error of not checking whether SNPs had more than one occurrance in the same haplogroup.

So I would disregard your brother's T-PAGES00011 designation. What we do know from his Geno 2.0 results is that he is L446+ CTS11984-. We have 4 kits with this combination who have tested Big Y and three of them share a number of novel SNPs including S27463. One of them (379058) is closer to your brother than the other two and in fact is quite high up on his list of matches at 67 markers - see the attached screen shot (I have also included the matches at 111 markers although 379058 hasn't tested to that level). I think it's very likely that your brother is S27463+ and shares many novel SNPs with 379058.

I believe FTDNA are about to announce their annual Fathers' Day sale. If Big Y is included in the sale I would encourage you to go ahead and order the test.

Best wishes

Gareth Henson

----------


## Sile

> I had my brother's DNA tested a few years back and we've been reclassified several times. T-L131, T-PAGES00011 and now it looks like we are probably L446+ CTS11984 and maybe S27463. 
> 
> I sent a question in to the administrators of the T group over on FTDNA because it just seems so weird to me to be the 'only' T-PAGES00011 for so long and here is Gareth's reply - btw, I hope the BIG Y sale is a really good one this year.
> 
> Hello Susan
> 
> As far as I can tell your brother is the only T-PAGES00011 in the database. PAGES00011 was originally discovered in haplogroup A and when searching I found a PAGES00011+ example in haplogroup R. It therefore appears to be a recurrent SNP and possibly unreliable. I strongly suspect that when FTDNA added it to their tree a few years ago the person analysing the data made the fundamental error of not checking whether SNPs had more than one occurrance in the same haplogroup.
> 
> So I would disregard your brother's T-PAGES00011 designation. What we do know from his Geno 2.0 results is that he is L446+ CTS11984-. We have 4 kits with this combination who have tested Big Y and three of them share a number of novel SNPs including S27463. One of them (379058) is closer to your brother than the other two and in fact is quite high up on his list of matches at 67 markers - see the attached screen shot (I have also included the matches at 111 markers although 379058 hasn't tested to that level). I think it's very likely that your brother is S27463+ and shares many novel SNPs with 379058.
> ...


what is your kit #

BTW, I am positive for CTS11984

----------


## Teaford

> what is your kit #
> 
> BTW, I am positive for CTS11984


I am kit N116155. I only have family history back to October 27, 1764. I'd like to go a lot deeper than that.

----------


## Sile

> I am kit N116155. I only have family history back to October 27, 1764. I'd like to go a lot deeper than that.


I see your line is from Alsace France, but have you ever looked at the Drake's of Windsor .............they settled in England, Usa and France

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1362611598

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1211229209

----------


## Teaford

This is news to me, I'll let you know if I find anything.

----------


## Sile

> they are back again
> 
> 
> 
> Do you ignore the "red" coded DYS .............ie, the fast mutating ones?


@fundora

In regards to the 2 others in our group

*Greco* ( N164010) is a surname that appears all over Italy and currently there are nearly 1400 households with this surname. So I have no idea.

the other

N145191 ( as what I was given, is also Italian ) is surname *Goldin*..........there are 214 households in Italy of which all except 10 are ....only in Northern Italy ( others are only in Tuscany and Umbria ). This marker originated from a town called Monselice in the Padua province of the Veneto region.

There seems to be also an association with this name ~1490 in the family tree of Cicogna/Mazzon ............Cicogna was a Doge of Venice and currently his old Villa is the current towns , councillors , registry offices and other offies

----------


## Sile

@KF

a new person joined our group

he is closest to you

kit = 420992 
Levi Lee Sr., b. 1761, d. 1844,
............United Kingdom
 .......................T-CTS8862



he is part of this project also
http://www.leedna.com/dnaresults.php

----------


## Sile

@KF

you are now noted in the semargl site under

*T1a2 L131>Y6033/L446>CTS933>CTS11984>CTS8862+ Europe*With me and another - surname Fakes ( 27v79 )............origin scot-irish .........ancestors in NC USA and Tyrol Austria

Another is Milligan ( DG4TT) ...unsure where he is from

The site seems to be using some form of Yfull marker names

----------


## Huracan

> @KF
> 
> with the new ftdna revamp in matches recently, I received two more matches
> 
> francesco Miotto and another with surname Ulrich
> 
> in my family tree 
> in the 19th century I have ( registry documents)
> 
> ...


Are the Miotto and Ulrich individuals CTS8862+?

----------


## Sile

> Are the Miotto and Ulrich individuals CTS8862+?


yes , but two different families
I have no idea where Ulrich originated from...................do not forget, we also have a Brennan with CTS8862


In regards to Levi lee in above posts, I spoke to an ancestor and he stated the father of Levi was, Charles Lee a brickmaker

----------


## Sile

@KF

with the new Ftdna parameters, you are 1 GD from me

I do have another GD of zero ( 3rd cousin? ...........more like 9th ) named Hintz form Padua province

----------


## Huracan

> yes , but two different families
> I have no idea where Ulrich originated from...................do not forget, we also have a Brennan with CTS8862
> 
> 
> In regards to Levi lee in above posts, I spoke to an ancestor and he stated the father of Levi was, Charles Lee a brickmaker


Does FTDNA provide the origins of Miotto and Ulrich?

----------


## Huracan

> @KF
> 
> with the new Ftdna parameters, you are 1 GD from me
> 
> I do have another GD of zero ( 3rd cousin? ...........more like 9th ) named Hintz form Padua province


Yes I saw but I do not understand the new update. It removed a lot of my previous matches, including my only match at 37 markers...

----------


## Sile

> Does FTDNA provide the origins of Miotto and Ulrich?


miotto is in Veneto Italy

Ulrich is in south Germany

----------


## Sile

> Yes I saw but I do not understand the new update. It removed a lot of my previous matches, including my only match at 37 markers...


Considering we where over 1000 years apart, the new system seems to make sense.

Yfull has a new person under out CTS8862 ...from Sardinia

I do have Tim Brennan as my main person............he is Portuguese?!?!?

try the SNP map in ftdna with CTS8862.........there is a pole person included

I have 2 new FF matches with surname BETZING

and also only ONE highlightted surname .........CEMIN from Trentino ............what does the Highlighted indicate?

----------


## Huracan

Wow cool, a Sardinian CTS8862+

So Brennan is listed as Portugal in origin? Guessing Brennan is mother's or an altered version of an earlier surname

Also, I have no clue what the highlighted surname means...

----------


## Sile

> Wow cool, a Sardinian CTS8862+
> 
> So Brennan is listed as Portugal in origin? Guessing Brennan is mother's or an altered version of an earlier surname
> 
> Also, I have no clue what the highlighted surname means...


the sardinian from cagliari


id:ERS256892*ITA [IT-CA]*new


on yfull

----------


## Sile

Looking through the T ftdna project , the following stands out

DYS390 =22

39 are of European ancestry and 2 are of Middle-East ancestry

there seems a clear link the DYS390 is an important STR in separating T-Ydna people.

----------


## Sile

@KF

Another joined our little group.....no name ..........kit#517001 from Virelles Belgium

I think this kit was a transfer from another company

...............................

It seems they want to test 1 x Polish and 2 x north-west Ukrainians *to see if they have same marker as us*

and

I x central Italian ( marche ), 1x south italian ( campania ) and 1 x west-sicilian

and

kit # 15746 from central Germany

----------


## Sile

> @KF
> 
> Another joined our little group.....no name ..........kit#517001 from Virelles Belgium
> 
> I think this kit was a transfer from another company
> 
> ...............................
> 
> It seems they want to test 1 x Polish and 2 x north-west Ukrainians *to see if they have same marker as us*
> ...




Kit # 517001 seems to be Francois Bernot born 1618 ...............seems like a french name

----------


## Sile

> Kit # 517001 seems to be Francois Bernot born 1618 ...............seems like a french name


Ftdna T project has associated francois Bernot with #517001 and

this marker sits closer to you KF and further from me

----------


## Sile

@Fundora

part of an email to me by a , T project Ftdna administrator 

*So far they have found 3 T-CTS8862 samples (southern European ), one from Italy and two from Hispanic populations. I think it is possible that you will be more closely related to one of these southern European samples than to the T Project members (whose roots are in north west Europe).* *N145191 is not Timothy Brennan (who isn't in the Project). His surname is Cockley but he has a match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. He has joined the Golden Project but I don't know why.*


Note: Timothy Brennan is my #1 match on ftdna .............he stated his ancestors where from SW-Germany ( black forest lands )

----------


## Huracan

> Ftdna T project has associated francois Bernot with #517001 and
> 
> this marker sits closer to you KF and further from me


I checked the site now and he doesnt appear... But yes it is definitely a French surname based on internet searches.

----------


## Huracan

> @Fundora
> 
> part of an email to me by a , T project Ftdna administrator 
> 
> *So far they have found 3 T-CTS8862 samples (southern European ), one from Italy and two from Hispanic populations. I think it is possible that you will be more closely related to one of these southern European samples than to the T Project members (whose roots are in north west Europe).* *N145191 is not Timothy Brennan (who isn't in the Project). His surname is Cockley but he has a match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. He has joined the Golden Project but I don't know why.*
> 
> 
> Note: Timothy Brennan is my #1 match on ftdna .............he stated his ancestors where from SW-Germany ( black forest lands )


Earlier you mentioned that N145191 was Goldin (see page 12). Cockley is a very English surname but him matching Caquelin (which appears to be French based off searches as well) may not immediately suggest a French connection... Did administrator say how distant they were?

----------


## Sile

> I checked the site now and he doesnt appear... But yes it is definitely a French surname based on internet searches.


Yes, French , but origins in Belgium.........Walloon area

----------


## Sile

> Earlier you mentioned that N145191 was Goldin (see page 12). Cockley is a very English surname but him matching Caquelin (which appears to be French based off searches as well) may not immediately suggest a French connection... Did administrator say how distant they were?


No , he said basically

*From previous tests we know you are T-CTS8862. We already have 3 members of the Project who are T-CTS8862 and have Big Y results - 33644, 58636 and 517001. 33644 and 58636 share a surname and are both already on YFull. They are related within the last 400 years or so. T-CTS8862 itself is estimated to be around 2200 years old.
*
* So the first thing your Big Y will tell you is whether you are more closely related to 33644/58636 or to 517001. 


*Caquelin from recent conversation origins are from Alsace....place called wildersach ( or something similar , since ~1650 )


I was given wrong info on N145191 as a Goldin........it was Caquelin .....both are in the Ftdna Golden Project

----------


## Sile

> No , he said basically
> 
> *From previous tests we know you are T-CTS8862. We already have 3 members of the Project who are T-CTS8862 and have Big Y results - 33644, 58636 and 517001. 33644 and 58636 share a surname and are both already on YFull. They are related within the last 400 years or so. T-CTS8862 itself is estimated to be around 2200 years old.
> *
> * So the first thing your Big Y will tell you is whether you are more closely related to 33644/58636 or to 517001. 
> 
> 
> *Caquelin from recent conversation origins are from Alsace....place called wildersach ( or something similar , since ~1650 )
> 
> ...


I have my BigY results and this from the project person

*let you know that you have a shared SNP - Z19945 (8397337 C to T) - which is not (yet) shared by anyone else in the Haplogroup T Project. The two Scottish-Irish members who are in your matches lists do not appear to share this SNP. Their branch T-Y17493 is a separate branch of T-CTS8662.

*I match only with Mr. Bernot I will fit in somewhere on the bottom left of this new Isogg T tree in link below.
CTS8489 is equal to CTS8862
*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...-M184_tree.png
*

----------


## Huracan

> No , he said basically
> 
> *From previous tests we know you are T-CTS8862. We already have 3 members of the Project who are T-CTS8862 and have Big Y results - 33644, 58636 and 517001. 33644 and 58636 share a surname and are both already on YFull. They are related within the last 400 years or so. T-CTS8862 itself is estimated to be around 2200 years old.
> *
> * So the first thing your Big Y will tell you is whether you are more closely related to 33644/58636 or to 517001. 
> 
> 
> *Caquelin from recent conversation origins are from Alsace....place called wildersach ( or something similar , since ~1650 )
> 
> ...


So is N145191 Cockley or Caquelin?

----------


## Huracan

> I have my BigY results and this from the project person
> 
> *let you know that you have a shared SNP - Z19945 (8397337 C to T) - which is not (yet) shared by anyone else in the Haplogroup T Project. The two Scottish-Irish members who are in your matches lists do not appear to share this SNP. Their branch T-Y17493 is a separate branch of T-CTS8662.
> 
> *I match only with Mr. Bernot I will fit in somewhere on the bottom left of this new Isogg T tree in link below.
> CTS8489 is equal to CTS8862
> *
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...-M184_tree.png
> *


This is interesting, I am continuing to research our clade and refine my understandings about its origins.

----------


## Sile

> This is interesting, I am continuing to research our clade and refine my understandings about its origins.


we are now split in the T ftdna project due to my BigY test

I will likely be in the future with mr. Bernot
T1a2a1a1b

and you and mr. Lee will be 
T1a2a1a1c

or clade/main branch is purely European beginning some 8000 years ago with L446 in northern Anatolia, it went to Europe first.............the european branch split many times until our clade CTS8862/CTS8489 was created some 2400 years ago.....I suspect around Southern Germany.

The persian side from L446 is less than 2000 years old ..............so it seems that some L446 migrated most likely from Anatolia to Persia and along the persian gulf at the time of the roman empire in the middle-east

----------


## Sile

> So is N145191 Cockley or Caquelin?


yes ............it is Cockley but Gareth thinks he was from france with the original surname of Caquelin

----------


## Sile

> we are now split in the T ftdna project due to my BigY test
> 
> I will likely be in the future with mr. Bernot
> T1a2a1a1b
> 
> and you and mr. Lee will be 
> T1a2a1a1c
> 
> or clade/main branch is purely European beginning some 8000 years ago with L446 in northern Anatolia, it went to Europe first.............the european branch split many times until our clade CTS8862/CTS8489 was created some 2400 years ago.....I suspect around Southern Germany.
> ...


Fundora, a note from project team to me

*YFull has updated its tree and Z19945 has been added (the only new branch for T this time). The age estimate is 2,600 years before present i.e. 400 BC. The ages of CTS8862 and CTS54 have been pushed back in time by the results for YF07168.
Note that YFull show CTS1848 as equivalent to Z19945. You are negative for this SNP but it is recurrent and possibly unreliable. 

*Bernot ( YF07168 ) is positive for CTS1848, I am negative

As per Bernot historical information to me................Bernot originate in ancient region of Thiérage, which in those days was partly in France (County of Vermandois) and partly in the Spanish Netherlands (County of Hainaut) and also Lorraine.
His ancestors worked in spanish netherlands "gun/cannon foundries" and travelled with the spainsh to Iberia once Spain lost the Netherlands.


I still maintain my marker along with Bernot came via Central-Danubian area ( south -Germany ) then split into Alps or Alsace or up the Rhine ..........I guess the split was in old Swabian lands of SW-Germany

----------


## Sile

Once my Yfull is done ( YF07608 ) I will see if I still link with YF07168 or we split apart from SNP z19945 due to CTS1848

the T tree in T-M184 has us split already

----------


## zanipolo

http://s23.postimg.org/uuwn0csjv/Karsdorf_Burial_settlement_T1a.png



http://britishacademy.universitypres...5758-chapter-6

----------


## Sile

as of today.............my yfull is still be analysed .........I am *IT-TV* below

from branch
T-L131S12150 * Y6030/FGC22987 * CTS7239+39 SNPsformed 16000 ybp, TMRCA 11100 ybpinfo
T-L131*

T-CTS54 Z19926 * Z19902 * CTS6769+26 SNPsformed 6600 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:YF06979*USA [US-VA]*id:NA20758*TSI* T-CTS8489 CTS10538 * CTS8489 * Z19953+5 SNPsformed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybpinfo
id:YF07608*ITA [IT-TV]*newT-CTS8489*
id:ERS256892*ITA [IT-CA]* T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500+11 SNPsformed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232id:YF04203*USA [US-NC]* T-Z19945Z19945 * CTS1848formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybpinfo
id:YF07168*BEL [BE-WHT]*id:HG01051*PUR*id:HG01530*IBS* 






I am confirmed positive for Z19945 , same as the bottom group, but I am confirmed negative for CTS1848 , while bottom group are positive for CTS1848.

note: YF are ftdna tested people and HG and ERS are samples tested from written papers

----------


## Sile

@ Fundora

is the crump person still close to you in ftdna ?

his info below
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/countries/topics/ireland/66415/




the will below of James Crump 1735 Dublin Merchant ( T ydna )


http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-...rump2&id=I2514

I will dig deeper ............His son Adam in Virginia USA was a wealthy man

----------


## Huracan

He is no longer close to me on FTDNA or even shown from 12-25 marker levels. Was he confirmed CTS8862+?

----------


## Sile

> He is no longer close to me on FTDNA or even shown from 12-25 marker levels. Was he confirmed CTS8862+?


He is close to me ................actually closer than this new one below


 Douglas C. Bowen............... 
       Y-DNA67 ................ 

 T-CTS8862
 .............CTS8862 ............. 
11/10/2016

----------


## Sile

> as of today.............my yfull is still be analysed .........I am *IT-TV* below
> 
> from branch
> T-L131S12150 * Y6030/FGC22987 * CTS7239+39 SNPsformed 16000 ybp, TMRCA 11100 ybpinfo
> T-L131*
> 
> T-CTS54 Z19926 * Z19902 * CTS6769+26 SNPsformed 6600 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybpinfo
> T-CTS54*
> id:YF06979*USA [US-VA]*id:NA20758*TSI* T-CTS8489 CTS10538 * CTS8489 * Z19953+5 SNPsformed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybpinfo
> ...


yfull found 49 new novel SNP's under me .....of which 20 are of "good quality"

and only 1 negative ?................L445

There where many they left as "no call"

----------


## Huracan

I saw CTS1848 is an equivalent SNP to Z19945. I am positive for CTS1848 according to FTDNA but I saw in your earlier post that it is "recurrent and unreliable". As for the other FTDNA matches, mine have not been updated and do not go past 25 markers...

----------


## Sile

> I saw CTS1848 is an equivalent SNP to Z19945. I am positive for CTS1848 according to FTDNA but I saw in your earlier post that it is "recurrent and unreliable". As for the other FTDNA matches, mine have not been updated and do not go past 25 markers...


Yes it is ..............so , Francois Bernot 1617 from Lorraine ............who worked as a cannon maker for the spanish Nertherlands "empire" and who followed these spanish back to iberia and later the new world is both positive Z19945 and CTS1848

I am negative for CTS1848, so Yfull most likely will branch me into a branch off Mr. Bernot into one with Z19945+ and CTS1848-

If you are CTS1848+ , you could also be Z19945 and a match with ancestors of mr.Bernot who went to the new world after the defeat of the spanish in the netherlands................but he is of french and not spanish ancestry

----------


## Huracan

> He is close to me ................actually closer than this new one below
> 
> 
>  Douglas C. Bowen...............
>        Y-DNA67 ................
> 
>  T-CTS8862
>  .............CTS8862 .............
> 11/10/2016


@Sile, where is the Bowen individual from?

----------


## Sile

> @Sile, where is the Bowen individual from?


I was given this below as his oldest ancestors

*Obadiah Bowen*



Birthdate:
 September 18, 1627

Birthplace:
 Glamorganshire, Wales




his father was:
*Richard Bowen*



Birthdate:
 circa 1580

Birthplace:
 Ilston, Glamorganshire, Wales
Died February 4, 1674 in Rehoboth, Plymouth Colony








*someone else gave me this:

Owen Bowen*

Welsh: Owain Bowen 


Birthdate:
 1453

Birthplace:
 Pentre Ifan Wood, Pembrokeshire, United Kingdom

Death:
 Died 1481

----------


## Sile

*Yfull version 5 is released*
and I am in a different branch and my TMRCA = 1150BC............Bronze-age collapse period


T-Y6033Y6037/FGC22998/Z19923 * CTS12108 * Y6035/FGC23001/Z19901+19 SNPs formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7800 ybpinfo

T-Y6033*
T-CTS933 S24464 * CTS6071 * CTS933+2 SNPs formed 7800 ybp, TMRCA 6800 ybpinfo
T-CTS933*
id:YF04638EGY [EG-ASN]

T-S27463 Y21207 * Y21204 * Y21206+13 SNPs formed 6800 ybp, TMRCA 1600 ybpinfo
id:ERS256891ITA [IT-CA]
id:YF04719IRQ [IQ-BA]

T-CTS54Z19926 * Z19902 * CTS6769+26 SNPs formed 6800 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:YF06979USA [US-VA]
id:NA20758TSI

T-CTS8489 CTS10538 * CTS8489 * Z19953+5 SNPsformed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
id:ERS256892ITA [IT-CA]
T-CTS8489*

T-Y17493 Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500+11 SNPsformed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232
id:YF04203USA [US-NC]

T-Z19945Z 19945 formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
T-Z19945*
* id:YF07608ITA [IT-TV]
*
T-CTS1848 CTS1848 formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybpinfo
id:YF07168BEL [BE-WHT]
id:HG01051PUR
id:HG01530IBS

my negative CTS1848 makes me 600 years older than the person with a positive CTS1848


it seems that your T is in Europe from at least 6800 years: "at least", i.e between 7800 and 6800YBP, but perhaps you know that I consider the YFull ages underestimated for an 1.17 factor...

Above from a scholar .............I think this means late Neolithic period ..........or is it middle Neolithic ? ..........taking in consideration YFull estimates

----------


## Huracan

This is interesting news, since I am CTS1848+ based on FTDNA's SNP list I would be placed in the terminal clade with Bernot and the two other Hispanics.

On the T Project, assessing the SNP lists of the members I notice that Bernot, Cockley/Caquelin, and I are the only ones that are CTS1848+. For some reason we are also the only three to have CTS1848 tested for and in our SNP lists...

----------


## Sile

> This is interesting news, since I am CTS1848+ based on FTDNA's SNP list I would be placed in the terminal clade with Bernot and the two other Hispanics.
> 
> On the T Project, assessing the SNP lists of the members I notice that Bernot, Cockley/Caquelin, and I are the only ones that are CTS1848+. For some reason we are also the only three to have CTS1848 tested for and in our SNP lists...


remember that the "HG" are not personal testers, they are from scientific papers

and 

Bernot states his ancestors ( they are French ) went with the Spanish after the Spanish lost the Netherlands ............so 
bernot - french
caquelin - french
and yourself ?.........I cannot remember what you found



and finally,,,,,my line is 600 years older than Bernot line for TMRCA

----------


## Sile

I have about 20 plus private mutations of which only one stands out.

this one is only found so far in 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almaty#History

----------


## Sile

At KFundora

I have just seen you are classified as CTS1848 ( because you are positive ) same as the french , Bernot person ........... in the renamed branch in YFull ............under me , which I am Z19945

There is still 600 years of TMRCA between us though

----------


## Huracan

> remember that the "HG" are not personal testers, they are from scientific papers
> 
> and 
> 
> Bernot states his ancestors ( they are French ) went with the Spanish after the Spanish lost the Netherlands ............so 
> bernot - french
> caquelin - french
> and yourself ?.........I cannot remember what you found
> 
> ...


According to what I have found thus far, my line is most likely Galician-Portuguese in origin... so NW Spain.

It's about 2500 years to the common ancestor of Bernot, Caquelin, the two Hispanic individuals from YFull (science papers, as you said), and I, equaling about 550 BCE.

----------


## Sile

> According to what I have found thus far, my line is most likely Galician-Portuguese in origin... so NW Spain.
> 
> It's about 2500 years to the common ancestor of Bernot, Caquelin, the two Hispanic individuals from YFull (science papers, as you said), and I, equaling about 550 BCE.


I think so as well...........but your line did not come to iberia via the med, but more likely via the danube and central and eastern europe .

----------


## Huracan

> I think so as well...........but your line did not come to iberia via the med, but more likely via the danube and central and eastern europe .


I agree. Based on the timings and origin of our surnames/lines, I think it is indicative of being dispersed by Indo-Europeans, maybe Celts or related groups. Requires more research to find out which is most likely...

----------


## Sile

> I agree. Based on the timings and origin of our surnames/lines, I think it is indicative of being dispersed by Indo-Europeans, maybe Celts or related groups. Requires more research to find out which is most likely...


 Subclades statistics  Haplogroup
Selected SNP
Known SNP
Novels
Unrounded
age (ybp)
Rounded age (ybp)
Age by all samples (ybp)

− T-Z19945
21
1
20
3410
3400 (2200-5100)
3100 (2200-4100)

− T-CTS8489
22
2
20
3570
3600 (2300-5300)
3100 (2200-4100)

− T-CTS54
27
7
20
4368
4400 (3000-6200)
3700 (2900-4700)

− T-CTS933
50
30
20
8037
8000 (6100-10400)
6800 (5700-7800)

− T-Y6033
53
33
20
8516
8500 (6500-11000)
7800 (6600-9000)

− T-L131
64
44
20
10271
10300 (8000-12900)
11000 (9700-12500)

− T-L206
91
71
20
14578
14600 (11900-17700)
16000 (14700-17300)





I was told I was in Europe from T-Y6033 marker ............I think west of the Urals is Europe and either just North Caucasus or both are designate as europe........maybe someone knows exactly

----------


## Sile

@kf

It states that the important DYS390 which we have #22 .............like all the other european L446 people ...........is that

mine changed from 23 to 22 at 6318 years ago .................I think this is where the call is to be "european" ...............maybe west of the Ural mountains ????


YFull site noted that my full STR numbers will not be ready until June 2017

----------


## Sile

@kf

I spoke to Greco who is with you in the T project..........his ancestors are from Puglia italy


as for myself , I have another match with a ...Gerhard Ludwig Fiedler ...............do you also match with him?

----------


## Huracan

@Sile

No, I do not see Fiedler as a match. My FTDNA matches have not changed for a long time and the newest update drastically decreased my list of matches. 

I was a little wary of self-designating myself as T-CTS1848. FTDNA has me as T-CTS8862 and the T Project still places me in the unmatched CTS8862 group. My tested SNP list from FTDNA says I'm CTS1848+ but does not include Z19945. YFull has CTS1848 as downstream from Z19945 so I guess I must be positive for it also?

----------


## Sile

> @Sile
> 
> No, I do not see Fiedler as a match. My FTDNA matches have not changed for a long time and the newest update drastically decreased my list of matches. 
> 
> I was a little wary of self-designating myself as T-CTS1848. FTDNA has me as T-CTS8862 and the T Project still places me in the unmatched CTS8862 group. My tested SNP list from FTDNA says I'm CTS1848+ but does not include Z19945. YFull has CTS1848 as downstream from Z19945 so I guess I must be positive for it also?


thanks.............so since I am negative CTS1848 which according to Yfull , I am 500 years older than your line, you must fit in with a close match with me who is also CTS1848 positive ( same as you ) , his surname is Bernot ( ancestry from eastern france , even though he also states belgium ( walloon )). We have spoken and he traced his lineage to a french family making cannons for the spanish in the spanish netherlands..........the family went with the spanish after the spanish lost the war against the dutch

you should be positive for Z19945


T-CTS8489CTS10538 * Z19953 * CTS9984+5 SNPsformed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
id:ERS256892*ITA [IT-CA]*T-CTS8489*T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500+11 SNPsformed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232 ........................different Knox from irelandid:YF04203*USA [US-NC] ............reddick knox from Hesse* T-Z19945Z19945formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybpinfo
T-Z19945*
id:YF07608*ITA [IT-TV] ...............me* T-CTS1848A15857/CTS1848formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybpinfo
id:YF07168*BEL [BE-WHT] ................Bernot*id:HG01051*PUR*id:HG01530*IBS* 




you should sit with Bernot


form reddick ancestor below
My Reddicks are German in origin, having had the surname recorded as Radick upon arrival in Savannah, GA in 1737. Back in the Odenwald region of southwest Germany the name had been Rettich / Rettig and a century earlier the family was named Retgen. Rettich is German for the vegetable radish. My suspicion is that the surname changed with circumstances - either a move to where there were already Rettich / Rettig folks residing or else when my Retgen ancestors perhaps took up radish farming.
*HG = unnamed samples from a data base*

----------


## Huracan

I recently checked the T Project on FTDNA and saw some new CTS8862 individuals:

133970 Meir Piwowicz, b.c. 1858, Tykocin, Poland (interesting because DYS390 is 21 instead of usual 22)
562486 unknown (clusters with you, so might actually be Z19945)
N164010 Greco (reappeared in my cluster with Lee)
N145191 unknown (my cluster with Lee)
N184890 unknown (my cluster with Lee)

They also grouped a whole bunch of previously mixed individuals with the Polish one into a huge CTS8862 group that includes a large Jewish component.

----------


## Salento

I'm Greco


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Salento

I'm going to assume that there are al least about 20 T CTS8862 related to me in the Province of Lecce in Puglia Italy.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Salento

My Ancestry from Geno 2 NG Helix
Attachment 8916

----------


## Huracan

> I'm Greco
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Oh hello! Welcome

----------


## Huracan

> I'm going to assume that there are al least about 20 T CTS8862 related to me in the Province of Lecce in Puglia Italy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Fascinating, so we have more CTS8862 in Italy! Do you know any historical information on your paternal line?

----------


## Salento

I've seen burocatic documents from Paternal side going back up to 200+ years, and they were all born in the province of Lecce.
No Family Stories that point to other Places.

----------


## Sile

> I recently checked the T Project on FTDNA and saw some new CTS8862 individuals:
> 
> 133970 Meir Piwowicz, b.c. 1858, Tykocin, Poland (interesting because DYS390 is 21 instead of usual 22)
> 562486 unknown (clusters with you, so might actually be Z19945)
> N164010 Greco (reappeared in my cluster with Lee)
> N145191 unknown (my cluster with Lee)
> N184890 unknown (my cluster with Lee)
> 
> They also grouped a whole bunch of previously mixed individuals with the Polish one into a huge CTS8862 group that includes a large Jewish component.


checked out #133970 , he and another with same marker, come from ancient Guttones lands of Poland, bordering old prussia

The Greek explorer Pytheas (4th century BC) may have referred to the territory as Mentenomon and to the inhabitants as Guttones (neighbours of the Teutones). A river to the east of the Vistula was called the Guttalus. ......................unsure if this was sarmatian lands or not

----------


## Sile

As for my T group ..T1a2 , the oldest link I have as per yfull is seen as the link via
T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54* Erzya-Bulgars/Macedonian group...............where Erzya, IIRC is in modern southern Russia.
although I have some west-asian, I have basically no Greek, iberian or north-africa/african genetic markers...........although I do have some Anatolian

The link with some Belgae/Walloons is best related that they are alpine/italic based on markers rather than my line originated from this low countries area.

----------


## Sile

Based on yfull test and the T tree

below is the only spot I fit

----------


## Salento



----------


## Sile

@KF
Are you kit# N118478
if so you are noted as having cts1848 now
*T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Iberian*
.
4 other cts1848 where processed 3 months ago , kits are
96359
93767
93761
93904
all are noted as
T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>[CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848]? Germany
.
and there is also another belgium
536211
T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Belgium
.
all have 22 for DYS390

----------


## Sile

@kf

I ran the yfull plot for myself .....see below

All are T1a2 unless specified

----------


## Salento

> @kf
> 
> I ran the yfull plot for myself .....see below
> 
> All are T1a2 unless specified


I'm on the same Bracket with Kf, do you if I, or Levi are also effected?

----------


## Sile

> I'm on the same Bracket with Kf, do you if I, or Levi are also effected?


this is KF plots

the south Italy is kit # N4188 .............not sure who that is
I am unsure about Levi either............but he is from north England

----------


## Salento

Thank you Sile. :)

----------


## Salento

FTDNA has my Terminal snp as CTS8862, and negative PAGES00113, Y17493.
Also negative Y21204, Y7381, Y7438, and so on.
My FTDNA Y snp download file doesn't have Z19945 , but it does have CTS1848.
Is that a Prediction?

----------


## Sile

> FTDNA has my Terminal snp as CTS8862, and negative PAGES00113, Y17493.
> Also negative Y21204, Y7381, Y7438, and so on.
> My FTDNA Y snp download file doesn't have Z19945 , but it does have CTS1848.
> Is that a Prediction?


if you are positive CTS1848, then you are positive for Z19945 and then your line is 500years younger than mine because Yfull has me as Z19945 with negative CTS1848
.
Negative known SNP are always older than positive ones

----------


## Salento

Thanks, I wasn't sure if FTDNA Y snp download file Report All snps or just the Positives.

----------


## Sile

> Thanks, I wasn't sure if FTDNA Y snp download file Report All snps or just the Positives.


Ftdna is behind in its tree..
..
here is KF 
*N118478*  38 13 5 T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Iberian
as noted by the yfull team .............and you are in the same group as KF IIRC
..
they have also found these new Z19945 people from about 2 months ago

I have no idea where the 5 digit kit numbers are from , ie, company

----------


## Huracan

> @KF
> Are you kit# N118478
> if so you are noted as having cts1848 now
> *T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Iberian*
> .
> 4 other cts1848 where processed 3 months ago , kits are
> 96359
> 93767
> 93761
> ...


Where is this denoted? FTDNA? If so, this is exciting!

----------


## Sile

> Where is this denoted? FTDNA? If so, this is exciting!


http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/
..
the site is run by the same people who run yfull program

----------


## Sile

the age of my z19945 has moved further back

so 3410 less ydp which is the year 1950 gives me a year of 1460BC

----------


## Sile

@KF
are you in yfull and is that IBS below yourself?
My yfull matches ......
.
.
.
.
Spoke/written to Reddick knox and he says his origins are from Hesse Germany and the original surname was Radich ( radish in German )
.
Spoke to Bernot and he said he was walloon and his ancestors where cannon makers for the spanish in Spanish netherlands.
.
The Italian is from Trentino/South Tyrol .........I cannot make contact
.
PUR is from originally Galicia Spain
.
The blank country one is surname Hill from South Carolina, a horse trader, origins are west Scottish

----------


## Huracan

> @KF
> are you in yfull and is that IBS below yourself?
> My yfull matches ......
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Spoke/written to Reddick knox and he says his origins are from Hesse Germany and the original surname was Radich ( radish in German )
> .
> ...


Remember you said that those HG samples were from papers, so no that is not me. I have not submitted/uploaded to YFull.

Interesting info from the other members!

----------


## Sile

> Remember you said that those HG samples were from papers, so no that is not me. I have not submitted/uploaded to YFull.
> Interesting info from the other members!


Have you changed your site name? How did you do that?
Yes HG are people included by the yfull from older studies , these are not fabricated numbers , but real people. I will ask yfull about the IBS person, I have a suspicion that it might be from Giron Spain.

----------


## Huracan

> Have you changed your site name? How did you do that?
> Yes HG are people included by the yfull from older studies , these are not fabricated numbers , but real people. I will ask yfull about the IBS person, I have a suspicion that it might be from Giron Spain.


I Google searched how to change one's username on Eupedia and it gave me a forum where they provided private message link to Maciamo. There you can request a username change!

----------


## Sile

@Alpenjager
As part of this 2015 paper
*United in death—related by blood? Genetic and archeometric analyses of skeletal remains from the neolithic earthwork bruchsal-aue
Authors
First published: 25 March 2015Full publication history*
I was given these Ydna samples
BrA 7a = I2a2a M223
BrA 7B = T - L131
I1 = I2c1a2 S6687
I2 = Qm3a6 L804
I3 = I2a2b L38
A1 = J2a1 Z6065
A2 = I1
A3 = R1b
A4 = R1b
Do you have these or the paper in your historic samples ?

----------


## Alpenjager

BrA 7a // DYS393= -, DYS393=13, DYS385=16, DYS389-I=14, DYS437=(13)/(14), DYS456=14, DYS458=16, DYS635= -

BrA 7b // DYS393= -, DYS393=13, DYS385=(16), DYS389-I=14, DYS437=(15), DYS456=14, DYS458=16, DYS635= -

BrA 7a and Bra 7b is the same individual sample with two different tries to get results. 

Feature =162
Grabe number =1
Ind. (lit.) =8
Ind.(this study) =BrA 7
Tooth sample =47
Analyses = aDNA, Sr
Bone sample =Femur Left
Analyses =Sr, C, N
Morph. age =30–35
Morph. sex =Male
Genetic sex =Male
Stress indicators =C. orbitalia/cranii

----------


## Teaford

OK - I ordered the Big Y on 11/15 - maybe I'll be able to push through this 'mystery'.




> I had my brother's DNA tested a few years back and we've been reclassified several times. T-L131, T-PAGES00011 and now it looks like we are probably L446+ CTS11984 and maybe S27463. 
> 
> I sent a question in to the administrators of the T group over on FTDNA because it just seems so weird to me to be the 'only' T-PAGES00011 for so long and here is Gareth's reply - btw, I hope the BIG Y sale is a really good one this year.
> 
> Hello Susan
> 
> As far as I can tell your brother is the only T-PAGES00011 in the database. PAGES00011 was originally discovered in haplogroup A and when searching I found a PAGES00011+ example in haplogroup R. It therefore appears to be a recurrent SNP and possibly unreliable. I strongly suspect that when FTDNA added it to their tree a few years ago the person analysing the data made the fundamental error of not checking whether SNPs had more than one occurrance in the same haplogroup.
> 
> So I would disregard your brother's T-PAGES00011 designation. What we do know from his Geno 2.0 results is that he is L446+ CTS11984-. We have 4 kits with this combination who have tested Big Y and three of them share a number of novel SNPs including S27463. One of them (379058) is closer to your brother than the other two and in fact is quite high up on his list of matches at 67 markers - see the attached screen shot (I have also included the matches at 111 markers although 379058 hasn't tested to that level). I think it's very likely that your brother is S27463+ and shares many novel SNPs with 379058.
> ...

----------


## Sile

@huracan

As of yesterday , you have been placed in the T-Z19945 group ( ftdna project ) along with myself and the 3 x Walloon/East French people ..........the other is the Hessian named Radich

----------


## Parthamaspates

Greetings everyone,


I did receive recently my test results. For my paternal line I received: T-CTS6507 as my subclade. Although nearly every first and second degree ancestor from my family lives since the 18th century in Persia, there is a family myth that my fathers ancestors came from southern Italy. Honestly I did not think that the test would confirm anything but my autosomal results did show about 1/3 from the italian region (17.9% from Tuscany, 12,4% from South Italy and 2.2% from North Italy). 
I would like to know if there is a way to find more information from my y-subclade or from my raw data, since I saw more "recent" T-subclades online. 


Best regards

----------


## Sile

> Greetings everyone,
> I did receive recently my test results. For my paternal line I received: T-CTS6507 as my subclade. Although nearly every first and second degree ancestor from my family lives since the 18th century in Persia, there is a family myth that my fathers ancestors came from southern Italy. Honestly I did not think that the test would confirm anything but my autosomal results did show about 1/3 from the italian region ([FONT="]17.9%[/FONT] from [FONT="]Tuscany[/FONT][FONT="], 12,4% from [/FONT][FONT="]South Italy and [/FONT]2.2% from North Italy). 
> I would like to know if there is a way to find more information from my y-subclade or from my raw data, since I saw more "recent" T-subclades online. 
> Best regards


Hi...Do you have or have tested for CTS6280?........as some are found in Messina Sicily.
.
CTS6280 is the next SNP after CTS6507

----------


## davef

> Greetings everyone,
> 
> I did receive recently my test results. For my paternal line I received: T-CTS6507 as my subclade. Although nearly every first and second degree ancestor from my family lives since the 18th century in Persia, there is a family myth that my fathers ancestors came from southern Italy. Honestly I did not think that the test would confirm anything but my autosomal results did show about 1/3 from the italian region (17.9% from Tuscany, 12,4% from South Italy and 2.2% from North Italy). 
> I would like to know if there is a way to find more information from my y-subclade or from my raw data, since I saw more "recent" T-subclades online. 
> 
> Best regards


Hello and welcome! Question, what test gave you those Italian percentages?

----------


## Parthamaspates

Thank you for your quick answers! I made the regular test on Living DNA, testing the paternal, maternal and the autosomal mixture. These percentages are from my "complete" family ancestry chart. Unfortunately CTS6280 is not included in the shown tree. Is there a chance that it is included in the raw data?


I encountered on "yfull.com" the following sample from a person from Caligari only showing the CTS6507 (id:ERS256914).

----------


## Huracan

> Thank you for your quick answers! I made the regular test on Living DNA, testing the paternal, maternal and the autosomal mixture. These percentages are from my "complete" family ancestry chart. Unfortunately CTS6280 is not included in the shown tree. Is there a chance that it is included in the raw data?
> 
> 
> I encountered on "yfull.com" the following sample from a person from Caligari only showing the CTS6507 (id:ERS256914).


Hi welcome Parthamaspates! Good thing you checked YFull it is a good resource. If you look closer at the CTS6507 clade, there are two men that are designated CTS6507* meaning that they do not belong to the subgroupings that occur below this group. It also means that they are strictly CTS6507+, sharing the same mutation/SNP as you and most related to you. 

Attachment 9594

Here you can see that besides the Italian (from Cagliari, Sardinia) (who is CTS6507+) there is an Iraqi (from Thi Qar in SE Iraq) and Egyptian (Sohag).

----------


## Huracan

> @huracan
> 
> As of yesterday , you have been placed in the T-Z19945 group ( ftdna project ) along with myself and the 3 x Walloon/East French people ..........the other is the Hessian named Radich


This is good! Hope to see further progress as our clade grows and we find more information on it

----------


## davef

> Greetings everyone,
> 
> 
> I did receive recently my test results. For my paternal line I received: T-CTS6507 as my subclade. Although nearly every first and second degree ancestor from my family lives since the 18th century in Persia, there is a family myth that my fathers ancestors came from southern Italy. Honestly I did not think that the test would confirm anything but my autosomal results did show about 1/3 from the italian region (17.9% from Tuscany, 12,4% from South Italy and 2.2% from North Italy). 
> I would like to know if there is a way to find more information from my y-subclade or from my raw data, since I saw more "recent" T-subclades online. 
> 
> 
> Best regards


I now know why you chose that user name:
from wiki

*"Parthamaspates, was the Roman client king of the Parthian Empire and later of Osroene. He was the son of the Parthian emperor Osroes I."


*

----------


## Sile

> This is good! Hope to see further progress as our clade grows and we find more information on it


The STR are being redone..........so let's see .................I think I am over 1000 years from you , but you and the walloons look like you are inside of 500years

----------


## Sile

> Thank you for your quick answers! I made the regular test on Living DNA, testing the paternal, maternal and the autosomal mixture. These percentages are from my "complete" family ancestry chart. Unfortunately CTS6280 is not included in the shown tree. Is there a chance that it is included in the raw data?
> I encountered on "yfull.com" the following sample from a person from Caligari only showing the CTS6507 (id:ERS256914).


the SNP that yfull found in ERS256914
*ERS256914 960 952 ...T-CTS6507 .....T-Y7794, ....T-Y4963, ....T-Y31474*
so branch CTS6507 with the 3 SNP confirmed

----------


## Parthamaspates

> Hi welcome Parthamaspates! Good thing you checked YFull it is a good resource. If you look closer at the CTS6507 clade, there are two men that are designated CTS6507* meaning that they do not belong to the subgroupings that occur below this group. It also means that they are strictly CTS6507+, sharing the same mutation/SNP as you and most related to you. 
> 
> 
> Here you can see that besides the Italian (from Cagliari, Sardinia) (who is CTS6507+) there is an Iraqi (from Thi Qar in SE Iraq) and Egyptian (Sohag).





> *ERS256914 960 952 ...T-CTS6507 .....T-Y7794, ....T-Y4963, ....T-Y31474*
> 
> so branch CTS6507 with the 3 SNP confirmed


I wish you all a happy new year filled with health and success! Thank you for the explanations. I checked also the list on The Y-DNA Haplogroup T (former K2) Project from Family Tree DNA, and found very detailed information about other T-carriers. My question is if one marker is included in my "Y-chromosome raw Data" is it positive ? For example, if CTS2860 is shown it is positive, if it is not included it would mean that it is either not checked or negative am I thinking correctly?






> I now know why you chose that user name:
> from wiki
> 
> 
> "Parthamaspates, was the Roman client king of the Parthian Empire and later of Osroene. He was the son of the Parthian emperor Osroes I."



Exactly, That is why I chose it davef!  :Laughing:  The Parthians were philhellen, used Greek the language, enjoyed Greek theater and Parthamaspates grew up in Roman exile even had a roman wive. I found it quite suitable. I am born and raised in Europe and my way of life and way of thinking is a western way.

----------


## Hamed

Dear Friends,I've recently had my Haplogroup and SNP results from Family Tree DNA.I was confirmed for HG T, SNP Y3781. My great-grandfather was from the Caucasus.Where? No one knows, since he was killed fighting the Bolsheviks.My grandfather and his small family moved to Azerbaijan(Baku) when he was 5 and later to Iran where I and my father where born.They all died when I was a baby and we moved to Canada, so I have no idea about my ancestors.We physically look very middle-eastern with light brown skin as oppose to many tribes of the Caucasus,which have white complexions.If you see me,you would think I'm an Arab man.Does any one know anything about Y3781? Where is it predominant? Correct me if I'm wrong.My theory is that maybe our ancestors came from the Arabic peninsula in the 8th century to conquer south Caucasus,and settled there.The reason I think this is,in the 8th century south Caucasus was under the rule of arab general Yazid Ibn Mazyad al-Shaybani.Shayban tribe is from Bakr Ibn Wail.In todays Arabic sites,this tribe is tested as Haplogroup T.Also in the first Khazar-Arab war, the general was AbduRahman Ibn Rabiah.The Rabiah tribe is also Haplogroup T. Please shed some light on this matter as you are all very knowledgeable and I'm very new to this.Thank you very much dear Friends.-Hamed

----------


## ioshic

Hi everyone,

I am a newbie here...I am from Rome, Italy.
I was able to understand that my haplogroup is T, but my assignment in the Haplogroup T project is still "obscure" to me... actually, really obscure ))

My kit in FTDNA is: 640824 . Oldest ancestor Cristoforo Iacobini.

In the family we used to know that they came from Spain in 16th century, then to North of Italy (Parma), then in the 17th to Rome, and here we are... but who knows if it's true, if nothing "happened" during the centuries (love is a strange thing...) etc etc.

It seems I am positive at: CTS 933 - CTS6071

Of course.... it says "unmatched" in the FTDNA, but under "Gamma-1.9-X T-CTS933 (CTS11984-) unmatched"-

It's totally obscure to me. Could you please help me out?
I cannot attach a link yet unfortunately..

Thank you so much for any help you can provide me.

----------


## Sile

> Hi everyone,
> I am a newbie here...I am from Rome, Italy.
> I was able to understand that my haplogroup is T, but my assignment in the Haplogroup T project is still "obscure" to me... actually, really obscure ))
> My kit in FTDNA is: 640824 . Oldest ancestor Cristoforo Iacobini.
> In the family we used to know that they came from Spain in 16th century, then to North of Italy (Parma), then in the 17th to Rome, and here we are... but who knows if it's true, if nothing "happened" during the centuries (love is a strange thing...) etc etc.
> It seems I am positive at: CTS 933 - CTS6071
> Of course.... it says "unmatched" in the FTDNA, but under "Gamma-1.9-X T-CTS933 (CTS11984-) unmatched"-
> It's totally obscure to me. Could you please help me out?
> I cannot attach a link yet unfortunately..
> Thank you so much for any help you can provide me.


ciao
read this first for an overview
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184
.
.
.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png
on here your branch is bottom left ....look for CTS933 and that is your branch , we just need to figure our where you belong
.
.
write to
Gareth Henson [email protected] , Group Administrator
very helpful
.
.
*Anteprima araldica cognome: Iacobini
Ordina adesso il Tuo Documento Araldico
Corona nobiliare IacobiniAntica ed assai nobile famiglia, detta Iacobini o Giacobini, originaria da Collamato (Marche) che poi si trasportò a Staffolo (Diocesi di Osimo) dove godette nobiltà. Le memorie di essa risalgono al 1500 circa, e riconosce come suo capostipite un Ugolino. Tra i personaggi che, maggiormente, le diedero lustro, ricordiamo quel Gio. Battista (1581), dottore in ambo le leggi, segretario di giustizia del principe Ranuccio I Farnese duca di Parma e Modena e del principe Odoardo suo figlio; auditore del cardinale Odoardo Farnese. Costrusse nel 1651, con juspatronato, una cappella in onore di S. Francesco Saverio. Odoardo (1646) fu anche egli dottore in ambo le leggi, ebbe onorevoli incarichi dai duchi di Parma. Si stabilì a Roma, dove, in morte di Clemente X fu Caporione dei Rioni..Costui fu anche giudice delle cause civili e criminali in Campidoglio, assessore della Regione dei Monti e si benemeritò dai Conservatori di Roma, tanto che ...*

.
Iacobini is very likely to be from Jacopo /Jacobo ...........I cannot remember when the J was replaced in italian language to the long I , but northern Italy retained the J for a much longer period

----------


## Sile

N145191 is now part of my group in the Ftdna T project. His surname is Cockley but he has a identical match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. And it is the same family.
BTW.....it is Gockley and not Cockley ..........ancestry given to me was
-Nicholas Caquelin 1650 from Walersbach Alsace has son
-Sebastian Caquelin (1689 - 1751), married Marie Banzet ( Benzing )(1684 - 1733), her parents are Christopher Banzet/Benzing of Bellefosse and Jehanne Neuviller
-Jean Nicholas Caquelin (1718-1796) married Magdalena Barbara Eberly, her parents are Michael Eberly and Veronica Ulrich
.
I am confused on why Ulrich and Benzing appear as matching me on Ftdna 
Banzet must be french for german Benzing
.
.
@ Salento ..........anything on your side ?...........I see you still sit with the York England mr.Lee

----------


## Salento

> N145191 is now part of my group in the Ftdna T project. His surname is Cockley but he has a identical match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. And it is the same family.
> BTW.....it is Gockley and not Cockley ..........ancestry given to me was
> -Nicholas Caquelin 1650 from Walersbach Alsace has son
> -Sebastian Caquelin (1689 - 1751), married Marie Banzet ( Benzing )(1684 - 1733), her parents are Christopher Banzet/Benzing of Bellefosse and Jehanne Neuviller
> -Jean Nicholas Caquelin (1718-1796) married Magdalena Barbara Eberly, her parents are Michael Eberly and Veronica Ulrich
> .
> I am confused on why Ulrich and Benzing appear as matching me on Ftdna 
> Banzet must be french for german Benzing
> .
> ...


You did told me to contact the Admin, but I can’t find that Info. Would you mind to tell me again? Sorry Sile. 
At FTDNA I’m still Confirmed T CTS8862, as you know I’m negative for CTS1848 plus the rest, and Z19945 is in Blue, but when a click on it I don’t get the option to test it.

----------


## Sile

> You did told me to contact the Admin, but I can’t find that Info. Would you mind to tell me again? Sorry Sile. 
> At FTDNA I’m still Confirmed T CTS8862, as you know I’m negative for CTS1848 plus the rest, and Z19945 is in Blue, but when a click on it I don’t get the option to test it.


Gareth Henson
[email protected]

----------


## Salento

> Gareth Henson
> [email protected]


Thank you, Sile.

----------


## Sile

> Thank you, Sile.


Just spoke to a mr. Termini who is also T1a2 from Sciacca Sicily.........seems like there are really only 3 areas in Italy for T1a2 ....Eastern Sicliy, then the messapic/north abruzzo /marche areas ( maybe with ancient Sabines in the mix ) and the alps ( usually only south Tyrol, northern veneto as well as north Tyrol with swiss saint-gallen area )
western side of Italian peninsula seems bare unless for migration......slovenia samples are all migrations from Trento ( south Tyrol ) , the croatian islands seem to fit the notion of Dalmatians ( as per book Venice and the slavs ) referred to as the only "illyrians " in the venetian archives as per the book
Tuscany ?!? ...not sure what is there

----------


## Salento

> Just spoke to a mr. Termini who is also T1a2 from Sciacca Sicily.........seems like there are really only 3 areas in Italy for T1a2 ....Eastern Sicliy, then the messapic/north abruzzo /marche areas ( maybe with ancient Sabines in the mix ) and the alps ( usually only south Tyrol, northern veneto as well as north Tyrol with swiss saint-gallen area )
> western side of Italian peninsula seems bare unless for migration......slovenia samples are all migrations from Trento ( south Tyrol ) , the croatian islands seem to fit the notion of Dalmatians ( as per book Venice and the slavs ) referred to as the only "illyrians " in the venetian archives as per the book
> Tuscany ?!? ...not sure what is there


If T1a2 was present on the Ancient Sabines, and the Legend of the Sabine Women has some truth on it, that also add another explanation for the low frequency of the Haplogroup.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_...e_Sabine_Women

----------


## Sile

Another T1a2-z19945 match in ftdna
John Brooks .......check link for the john with 3g in his name
https://www.tributaries.info/ui49.htm#a2
his father John 1g ..........is from Windsor, Connecticut.......the same place as the family named Drake from Windsor, Connecticut. They where also haplogroup T

----------


## Sile

Yfull tree upgrade to 6.02 has made another private SNP for me ....Y70078 4 star .............only change for me
SNP and STR matches have no change ........still have the Bernot family from Walloon Belgium, the Radich family from Hesse Germany and an ancient sardinian from ( i cannot remember his name but starts with F ) the 1200 samples paper

----------


## Salento

> Yfull tree upgrade to 6.02 has made another private SNP for me ....Y70078 4 star .............only change for me
> SNP and STR matches have no change ........still have the Bernot family from Walloon Belgium, the Radich family from Hesse Germany and an ancient sardinian from ( i cannot remember his name but starts with F ) the 1200 samples paper


Do you know if Y70078 is right below Z19945, or are there others SNPs between?

----------


## Sile

> Do you know if Y70078 is right below Z19945, or are there others SNPs between?


it replaced A339 which is also private with 3 stars ............Y70078 is higher for me but still private

----------


## Sile

currently studing medes and maji peoples from Turkmenistan
......some info
*Along Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups I M170, and I P215, the third most common haplogroup among the Iranian Zoroastrian Priesthood is T1a2.
While the original I haplogroups appear to go back to the Magis of Zarathustra and BMAC culture, the latter T1a2 haplogroup must hail back to the Median Magi from the West. T1a2 or (T L131) has been found as far East as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. T1a2 penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe of Eurasia during the Neolithic, and became integrated to the indigenous R1a peoples (Proto Indo Iranians) before their expansion to Central Asia during the Bronze Age.*
younger than the T1 ydna hunters that went into Europe pre neolithic times........but still, good to check out....I will keep you posted

----------


## Alpenjager

> currently studing medes and maji peoples from Turkmenistan
> ......some info
> *Along Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups I M170, and I P215, the third most common haplogroup among the Iranian Zoroastrian Priesthood is T1a2.
> While the original I haplogroups appear to go back to the Magis of Zarathustra and BMAC culture, the latter T1a2 haplogroup must hail back to the Median Magi from the West. T1a2 or (T L131) has been found as far East as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. T1a2 penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe of Eurasia during the Neolithic, and became integrated to the indigenous R1a peoples (Proto Indo Iranians) before their expansion to Central Asia during the Bronze Age.*
> younger than the T1 ydna hunters that went into Europe pre neolithic times........but still, good to check out....I will keep you posted


Zoroastrian Mobeds belong to T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a-CTS6507.

55% of Zoroastrian Priests from India = L1
25% of Zoroastrian Priests from Iran = T1a

----------


## Sile

> Zoroastrian Mobeds belong to T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a-CTS6507.


i expect all 4 T haplogroups to be involved ................since the founder of Zorastrian was born in Turkmenistan , I will be checking it out ..
will check on 
Mobeds
Maji
Medes 
and bactrian societies

----------


## Sile

> it replaced A339 which is also private with 3 stars ............Y70078 is higher for me but still private


this private Y70078 only appeared in the latest Yfull tree....6.02

only has A339 previously

----------


## Sile

> this private Y70078 only appeared in the latest Yfull tree....6.02
> 
> only has A339 previously


Yfull now has me with a private SNP BY32027 in hg38 system .............BY = bigY after y500 results

----------


## Salento

> Another T1a2-z19945 match in ftdna
> John Brooks .......check link for the john with 3g in his name
> https://www.tributaries.info/ui49.htm#a2
> his father John 1g ..........is from Windsor, Connecticut.......the same place as the family named Drake from Windsor, Connecticut. They where also haplogroup T


John Brooks goes back to the 1600s, around Connecticut (as you know, the proximity is just a coincidence).
I can’t find an updated reliable source about Thomas Jefferson relatives Y T subgroups.
I’ve probably been looking in the wrong places.
Jefferson and Brooks were contemporary, and .... , you know what I mean. What if.

----------


## Alpenjager

> John Brooks goes back to the 1600s, around Connecticut (as you know, the proximity is just a coincidence).
> I can’t find an updated reliable source about Thomas Jefferson relatives Y T subgroups.
> I’ve probably been looking in the wrong places.
> Jefferson and Brooks were contemporary, and .... , you know what I mean. What if.


Thomas Jefferson belongs to T1a1a1b1a1a1-PF7444. Is a 5300ybp large and widely distributed West Eurasia T subclade also found well distributed in Great Britain but sadly still understudied in comparison to other T branches..

----------


## Huracan

@Sile

I checked the semargl site and saw a CTS1848+ individual labeled as Greek... do you know anything about this?
Attachment 10082

----------


## Sile

> @Sile
> I checked the semargl site and saw a CTS1848+ individual labeled as Greek... do you know anything about this?
> Attachment 10082


I cannot open your link
what is the kit # in Semargl ?
.
The Semargl map search indicates greek , but no greek listed
The closest greek i found is the one that states from russia (erzya ) to macedonia
.
the closest search for myself using the old search system in that site is below

----------


## Huracan

My apologies, for I realized Eupedia is not correctly linking attachments. The site will not show me the kit #s but their listed entry is T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Greek

----------


## Sile

> My apologies, for I realized Eupedia is not correctly linking attachments. The site will not show me the kit #s but their listed entry is T1a2b Y6033>CTS933>CTS54>CTS8489>Z19945>CTS1848 Greek


I have found no kit # for this greek.....maybe semargyl team ( which is the Yfull team ) only listed a "maybe" branch.

BTW........we discussed your surname many years and I stated it could be italian via a name of an ancient mining place near bergamo ......a spaniard in facebook looking for your name states it does not exist in Spain and stated it was could be Italian...........have you found anything more on this?

----------


## Huracan

> I have found no kit # for this greek.....maybe semargyl team ( which is the Yfull team ) only listed a "maybe" branch.
> 
> BTW........we discussed your surname many years and I stated it could be italian via a name of an ancient mining place near bergamo ......a spaniard in facebook looking for your name states it does not exist in Spain and stated it was could be Italian...........have you found anything more on this?


I am still researching into its origins, a never-ending investigation. Multiple records confirm its earliest presence in the Canary Islands in the 1700s but I cannot find a mainland Spanish connection. I know of another Fundora family who said their recent ancestors (3-4 generations ago) came to Cuba from either Galicia or Asturias (northern Spain). This led me to think of a NE Spanish origin, maybe Portuguese (there are Portuguese surnames like Fontoura and Fundo that could have evolved into Fundora). Cannot say for certain yet.

Who is this Spaniard that said that? I have found info on Fundora in Spain but these are current stats, nothing about in the past. Whether these are Latin Americans who moved to Spain or actual Spaniards is hard to tell...
https://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/ap...dora-leon.html
http://lastnames.genoom.com/es/apell...ra/Espa%C3%B1a
http://www.ine.es/widgets/nombApell/index.shtml - searching for Fundora shows it pop up in specific parts of Spain

----------


## Alpenjager

Fundora is not a spanish surname as far as i know. There is none native born in spain with this surname even not in Canary islands according to INE, all of them are migrants.
You should look also for Fundaro a rare Italian surname.

----------


## Huracan

> Fundora is not a spanish surname as far as i know. There is none native born in spain with this surname even not in Canary islands according to INE, all of them are migrants.
> You should look also for Fundaro a rare Italian surname.


Yes I remember a while ago seeing on INE or another site that most of the Fundoras in Spain were foreign-born (pretty sure almost all Cuban), but can't seem to find how to access that info again. This is why I am leaning towards a Portuguese origin due to my closest genetic matches (Azoreans, Brazilians, etc.), etymology of the surname and similar sounding ones (Fundo, Fontoura), and the history of the Canaries. 

However, I cannot rule out an Italian origin especially given the Fondora of Lucca and the few times it has been written as Fundora in Italian texts. I've looked into Fundaro before (Sicilian) and it might be an option, who knows.

----------


## Sile

> Yes I remember a while ago seeing on INE or another site that most of the Fundoras in Spain were foreign-born (pretty sure almost all Cuban), but can't seem to find how to access that info again. This is why I am leaning towards a Portuguese origin due to my closest genetic matches (Azoreans, Brazilians, etc.), etymology of the surname and similar sounding ones (Fundo, Fontoura), and the history of the Canaries. 
> However, I cannot rule out an Italian origin especially given the Fondora of Lucca and the few times it has been written as Fundora in Italian texts. I've looked into Fundaro before (Sicilian) and it might be an option, who knows.


Are you referring to this family who controlled the mint ( zecca) of Lucca
*maestri della zecca di Lucca. Il più noto della famiglia è Lazzaro de Fondora, dovizioso mercante, che fece erigere nel 1309 la chiesa di S. Maria e S. Francesco nei borghi della città, donandola ai Frati Minori. Fu padre di Bonaccorso, detto Cosicorino, che spoò Gentucca Morla, la giovanetta che avrebbe fatto piacere Lucca a Dante, secondo la profezia di Bonagiunta Orbicciani. Nel 1541 il capitano Paolino Fondora difese Anversa contro gli Spagnoli.*
.
http://www.cognomix.it/stemma-famiglia/fondora
.
http://www.copernicum.it/manuscript/...-lucca-1411505
.
http://www.archiviodistato.firenze.i...miglia&id=3240

----------


## Huracan

> Are you referring to this family who controlled the mint ( zecca) of Lucca
> *maestri della zecca di Lucca. Il più noto della famiglia è Lazzaro de Fondora, dovizioso mercante, che fece erigere nel 1309 la chiesa di S. Maria e S. Francesco nei borghi della città, donandola ai Frati Minori. Fu padre di Bonaccorso, detto Cosicorino, che spoò Gentucca Morla, la giovanetta che avrebbe fatto piacere Lucca a Dante, secondo la profezia di Bonagiunta Orbicciani. Nel 1541 il capitano Paolino Fondora difese Anversa contro gli Spagnoli.*
> .
> http://www.cognomix.it/stemma-famiglia/fondora
> .
> http://www.copernicum.it/manuscript/...-lucca-1411505
> .
> http://www.archiviodistato.firenze.i...miglia&id=3240


Yes that one. They are the ones who dominate the historical records and texts.

----------


## Sile

Another Belgium found with Z19945 ............Jean Halpeau 1509-1589 .............I will speak with the Walloon ( x3 memebrs ) whose ancestors prior to belgium came via Riese Pio in Veneto Italy ( he is the one whose ancestors fled with the Spanish to North Spain after the collapse of the Spanish Netherlands)

----------


## Salento

> Another Belgium found with Z19945 ............Jean Halpeau 1509-1589 .............I will speak with the Walloon ( x3 memebrs ) whose ancestors prior to belgium came via Riese Pio in Veneto Italy ( he is the one whose ancestors fled with the Spanish to North Spain after the collapse of the Spanish Netherlands)


What about #471167 Brooks dated 1695 in the US, also Z19945, do we know if he was a Brits originally or something else?

----------


## Sile

> What about #471167 Brooks dated 1695 in the US, also Z19945, do we know if he was a Brits originally or something else?


Yes british from ......Glastonbury (/ˈɡlæstənbəri/) is a town and civil parish in Somerset, England, .
.
on post #410....the persons line is actually from lezinnes France ..........he is a famous Printer, bookmaker for the french Court
http://data.bnf.fr/16145773/jean_hulpeau/
His father name was Johan

----------


## Salento

The Italian connection to Z19945, and predecessors is strong.
The members of the Haplo must have not been monolithic, but rather moved around Europe and Italy in multiple Time Periods. 
Just an observation.

IMG_8808.JPG

IMG_8809.JPG

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Yes I remember a while ago seeing on INE or another site that most of the Fundoras in Spain were foreign-born (pretty sure almost all Cuban), but can't seem to find how to access that info again. This is why I am leaning towards a Portuguese origin due to my closest genetic matches (Azoreans, Brazilians, etc.), etymology of the surname and similar sounding ones (Fundo, Fontoura), and the history of the Canaries. 
> 
> However, I cannot rule out an Italian origin especially given the Fondora of Lucca and the few times it has been written as Fundora in Italian texts. I've looked into Fundaro before (Sicilian) and it might be an option, who knows.


Hi Huracan, 

Fondora from Lucca (very unusual and rare surname) was a medieval family and part of the local nobility, and very probably became extinct a couple of centuries ago. This family is attested starting from 1200s, when the surnames were not yet in today's modern forms, and they were previously known as "de' Bujoli". The name "Fondora" perhaps originates because it refers to the enormous accumulation of landed property by them in the past, especially in the medieval era (in Italian "fondo", "proprietà fondiaria"). According to the Italian telephone directory, surname Fondora does not exist in Italy.

Many Italian, Spanish and Portuguese surnames resemble each other because they share the same Latin roots, not necessarily because people who carry these surnames have some degree of kinship.

By chance, are you related to the Cuban athlete Ivan Fundora?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iv%C3%A1n_Fundora

----------


## Sile

> The Italian connection to Z19945, and predecessors is strong.
> The members of the Haplo must have not been monolithic, but rather moved around Europe and Italy in multiple Time Periods. 
> Just an observation.
> IMG_8808.JPG
> IMG_8809.JPG


you should add the people with just CTS8489 and CTS8862 as Z19945 is relatively new ..............look at post #402 with all these

----------


## Salento

> you should add the people with just CTS8489 and CTS8862 as Z19945 is relatively new ..............look at post #402 with all these


My Focus was specific to Z19945.
Notice the Question Marks (?) next to all the Germans at post #402 ending with CTS1848.
They are maybe “+” for Z19945, but we don’t know if they are “-“ for CTS1848.
CTS1848 is younger than Z19945, and so we don’t know where the Germans (unknown for CTS1848) were before the mutation took place.
And if they are CTS1848, we are Older than them.
For now, according to that Graphic, we don’t know yet.

----------


## Sile

> My Focus was specific to Z19945.
> Notice the Question Marks (?) next to all the Germans at post #402 ending with CTS1848.
> They are maybe “+” for Z19945, but we don’t know if they are “-“ for CTS1848.
> CTS1848 is younger than Z19945, and so we don’t know where the Germans (unknown for CTS1848) were before the mutation took place.
> And if they are CTS1848, we are Older than them.
> For now, according to that Graphic, we don’t know yet.


negative is always older than positive.....for CTS1848- , it is 500year older than CTS1848+ as per yfull..................
.
I predict there will be a branch split of Z19945 in the future due to CTS1848

----------


## Salento

> negative is always older than positive.....for CTS1848- , it is 500year older than CTS1848+ as per yfull..................
> .
> I predict there will be a branch split of Z19945 in the future due to CTS1848


I said that we are older because we are Negative for CTS1848.
CTS8862+ Z19945+ CTS1848-

----------


## Sile

> I said that we are older because we are Negative for CTS1848.
> CTS8862+ Z19945+ CTS1848-


i know ....i confirmed

----------


## Huracan

> Hi Huracan, 
> 
> Fondora from Lucca (very unusual and rare surname) was a medieval family and part of the local nobility, and very probably became extinct a couple of centuries ago. This family is attested starting from 1200s, when the surnames were not yet in today's modern forms, and they were previously known as "de' Bujoli". The name "Fondora" perhaps originates because it refers to the enormous accumulation of landed property by them in the past, especially in the medieval era (in Italian "fondo", "proprietà fondiaria"). According to the Italian telephone directory, surname Fondora does not exist in Italy.
> 
> Many Italian, Spanish and Portuguese surnames resemble each other because they share the same Latin roots, not necessarily because people who carry these surnames have some degree of kinship.
> 
> By chance, are you related to the Cuban athlete Ivan Fundora?
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iv%C3%A1n_Fundora


Hello Pax Augusta,

Yes, I am familiar with this background on the medieval Fondora but thanks for the input on the rarity and possible extinction of the surname. I agree that the common Latin base among the languages can lead to "convergent evolution" of names. And no, not related to Ivan... at least that I know about.

----------


## Sile

@Huracan

Can you find BY32027 in your ftdna .................mine below , it is the same as Y70078 in yfull

----------


## Huracan

> @Huracan
> 
> Can you find BY32027 in your ftdna .................mine below , it is the same as Y70078 in yfull


I checked my full SNP list and I did not find this marker. Is it private?

----------


## Sile

> I checked my full SNP list and I did not find this marker. Is it private?


I asked Yfull team .............its private until one other has this SNP, then it becomes a branch

----------


## Sile

Another T-Z19945

surname Russo from Campobasso province Molise region

molise formed from ancient Samnites peoples
Samnites came via Umbrians
Umbrians via Terramare culture in Romangna
Terramare culture as scholars discuss caome via Pelasgians

The only pelasgian origin I know of, is from Homer, who states they where allies of the Trojans and came from Gallipoli peninsula ancient Thrace

----------


## Salento

> Another T-Z19945
> 
> surname Russo from Campobasso province Molise region
> 
> molise formed from ancient Samnites peoples
> Samnites came via Umbrians
> Umbrians via Terramare culture in Romangna
> Terramare culture as scholars discuss caome via Pelasgians
> 
> The only pelasgian origin I know of, is from Homer, who states they where allies of the Trojans and came from Gallipoli peninsula ancient Thrace


Nice! Puglia and Molise share a Border.
Another Brother from another Mother. LoL
I have DNA Relatives called Russo showing up. Besides being a popular surname. :)

----------


## Sile

the 2015 italian paper states these for Haplogroup T ( ydna ) ...................the third one is the closest for myself as it states DYS385 (a,b) as 13-15......while I am 13-13 

anyone have a program where I can enter the STR and get a marker for the above
.
.
using Nevgen program
done all...they are
Cuneo T1a2-L131 fitness score 56.3
Brescia T1a2-L131 fitness score 87.6
Vicenza T1a2-L131 fitness score 94.2
Vicenza T1a2-L131 fitness score 92.3
.
La Spezia T1a1 - CTS11451
Siena T1a2-L131 fitness score 99.0
Siena T1a3 Y11151
.
L'Aquila T1a2-L131 fitness score 95.5
L'Aquila T1a3 Y11151
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
Matrera T1a2-L131 fitness score 68.2
.
Arigeneto T1a2-L131 fitness score 74.2
Ragusa T1a2-L131 fitness score 79.9
Ragusa T1a1 - CTS11451
.
La Spezia T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
Benevento T1a1 - CTS11451
Matera T1a1 - CTS11451
Oristano T1a1 - Y4119

----------


## Sile

> Nice! Puglia and Molise share a Border.
> Another Brother from another Mother. LoL
> I have DNA Relatives called Russo showing up. Besides being a popular surname. :)


He is kit 290567

another T1a2 is kit 276156 surname Lugosi from Lombardy ..........although also found in Dalmatia
and
N35265 is Michele Caggiano b.1890 in Lacedonia Italy ............town seems on the border of 2 regions

----------


## Huracan

> He is kit 290567
> 
> another T1a2 is kit 276156 surname Lugosi from Lombardy ..........although also found in Dalmatia
> and
> N35265 is Michele Caggiano b.1890 in Lacedonia Italy ............town seems on the border of 2 regions


N35265 is the kit # for the new Z19945 individual that you said was Russo. Is it Russo or this Caggiano person?

----------


## Sile

> N35265 is the kit # for the new Z19945 individual that you said was Russo. Is it Russo or this Caggiano person?


caggiano is correct .....it was an error by me initially
.
.
this one 290567 comes from city called Nola in Italy
.
.
many seem to fit the ...................macro-haplogroup LT is 30% in L'Aquila population. This was the land of Samnium inhabited by the Caraceni......................as noted by another site
.
.
history of the samniums, sabines, sabellians as per scholars is from Umbri peoples , who in turn are from Terramare culture and who are stated by some scholars to be Pelasgians 
According to homer, Pelasgians origin is gallipoli peninsula ( ancient thrace , now modern turkey)

----------


## Pax Augusta

> history of the samniums, sabines, sabellians as per scholars is from Umbri peoples , who in turn are from Terramare culture and who are stated by some scholars to be Pelasgians 
> According to homer, Pelasgians origin is gallipoli peninsula ( ancient thrace , now modern turkey)


So now Samnites, Sabines and Umbrians are from Terramare and Terramare culture is Pelasgian.

Interesting. So now even Italics are Pelasgian.

Is there anyone in Italy who is not Pelasgian, Sile?

----------


## Salento

Does it mean that there isn’t any Russo surname positive for Z19945 yet?
Or that Russo is Kit #290567?

----------


## Sile

> Does it mean that there isn’t any Russo surname positive for Z19945 yet?
> Or that Russo is Kit #290567?


second one

----------


## Sile

> So now Samnites, Sabines and Umbrians are from Terramare and Terramare culture is Pelasgian.
> Interesting. So now even Italics are Pelasgian.
> Is there anyone in Italy who is not Pelasgian, Sile?


not my call............I do not believe it............I only noted what scholars state
.
I believe the umbrians came via north of the alps as I stated years ago
.
why do you believe they are pelasgians ?
.
are you believing in this?* Recent archeological research, and re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, tend to link the Terrarmare culture to the Pelasgians –*
.
Anyway..........terramare culture was umbrian and it created Villanova culture .............where the etruscans a branch of umbri is the question one needs to ask
.
NE-Italy had Danubian culture ..........via LBK and Rossen cultures .................

----------


## Salento

> second one


That’s great.

Now, about those links I pmed you earlier.
Clarification: I was talking about the map of 117 AD, and Not the map of 7000 bc.
Notice Y T located in Lazio, between Toscana and Campania, or in and around Roma. :) 


..... The third map shows Europe around 117 AD, which saw the Roman Empire reach its greatest territorial extent....... 

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-...oms-and-y-dna/

----------


## Pax Augusta

> That’s great.
> 
> Now, about those links I pmed you earlier.
> Clarification: I was talking about the map of 117 AD, and Not the map of 7000 bc.
> Notice Y T located in Lazio, between Toscana and Campania, or in and around Roma. :) 
> 
> 
> ..... The third map shows Europe around 117 AD, which saw the Roman Empire reach its greatest territorial extent....... 
> 
> http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-...oms-and-y-dna/


This is map is amateur stuff completely unsourced and unreliable.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> not my call............I do not believe it............I only noted what scholars state
> .
> I believe the umbrians came via north of the alps as I stated years ago
> .
> why do you believe they are pelasgians .


Of course I don't believe they are Pelasgians. Pelasgian is a broad term of little scientific value.

----------


## Salento

> This is map is amateur stuff completely unsourced and unreliable.


Thanks for the Input, Pax.
It’s out there. 
(Comunque sia, la mappa mostra una presenza localizzata, ma massiccia dell’aplogruppo Y T nella zona della Capitale.) :)

----------


## Huracan

> Another T-Z19945
> 
> surname Russo from Campobasso province Molise region
> 
> molise formed from ancient Samnites peoples
> Samnites came via Umbrians
> Umbrians via Terramare culture in Romangna
> Terramare culture as scholars discuss caome via Pelasgians
> 
> The only pelasgian origin I know of, is from Homer, who states they where allies of the Trojans and came from Gallipoli peninsula ancient Thrace


Based on their placement in the group on FTDNA, I think this Russo (#N35265) might be CTS1848 because he is placed under the Bernot's and myself as well his STRs being closest to ours. Hard to know for sure until they update his since the Z19945 group has similar STRs regardless.

Also interesting to point out that when Ysearch was still functional, this Russo was always one of my closest matches and now it makes sense since he is very close to me if not having the same terminal SNP.

----------


## Joey37

My group of M-458 is right by Vandals...I'm B-Western Subclade...Look out, Rome, my cousins are coming...410

----------


## Salento

> My group of M-458 is right by Vandals...I'm B-Western Subclade...Look out, Rome, my cousins are coming...410


This thread is about Y T, and not about others.
If you didn’t Get Lost yet, Go Ahead and do it, and take your Cousins with you.

----------


## Salento

> Another T1a2-z19945 match in ftdna
> John Brooks .......check link for the john with 3g in his name
> https://www.tributaries.info/ui49.htm#a2
> his father John 1g ..........is from Windsor, Connecticut.......the same place as the family named Drake from Windsor, Connecticut. They where also haplogroup T


Walking around and by pure coincidence a noticed the name Hervey Brooks on a historical Building from Connecticut, but now Transported/Relocated in Massachusetts at Old Sturbridge Village, New England’s largest outdoor living history museum. (Cool Stuff)
I don’t know if he is related to John Brooks, but by Connecticut being a small State, it’s possible, especially minus-plus-18th century people.



https://www.osv.org/building/pottery-shop-kiln/

----------


## Sile

> Based on their placement in the group on FTDNA, I think this Russo (#N35265) might be CTS1848 because he is placed under the Bernot's and myself as well his STRs being closest to ours. Hard to know for sure until they update his since the Z19945 group has similar STRs regardless.
> Also interesting to point out that when Ysearch was still functional, this Russo was always one of my closest matches and now it makes sense since he is very close to me if not having the same terminal SNP.


He is not actually a Russo ...he is just part of the Russo project...his name might not be Russo
.
below are other 

Benedetto married a german and moved from north to south ...........he is 1 step from myself.
143092 is part of the Prosser family Project ...........part of the Italian project 
.
Prossers with this name origin may be found in Germany, especially southern Germany and Bavaria, and other countries historically under German influence, such as Austria, Denmark, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and northern Italy.
In summation, the etymology of the 'Middle European surname' Prosser is as follows:
Proserpere (to emerge) F Proserpina / Proserpine F Proßer F Prosser
Latin verb (as in “growing grain”) F Roman Agricultural goddess F German form F Mid European form.

----------


## Sile

I have *another Yfull match with a Turk from Antalya* who was part of a test in 2009
*Y-CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUP T-M70 AND K*-M9(xNotSubtyped) IN TURK POPULATIONS AND ALTAI ORIGINATED POPULATIONS* 
.
T-M70 Y-SNP haplogroups in the Antalya population in Turkish Republic......ID# 153
Turkiye
Antalya
Turk
Oguz Turkmen
10/75
13.3%
Turan/Altai 
.
I believe that people from Altai are central asian peoples 
.
.................................................. .
.
in regards to 143092 , surname Prosser , they are in majority from towns of Rovereto, Noriglio and Volano,.........there are 2 main lines Prosser line and De Probizer line, my guess is the Probizer was the original name and is now basically extinct.
.
The only T-M70 I found was from Mansueto Prosser, father was Pietro and mother Teresa Maffei at Volano......there ancestor was Guido De Probizer b. 1849
Does not match myself

----------


## Sile

Recent T project groupings for T-Z19945 have
.
*N145191 surname Caquelin* ancestors from Wildersach Alsace france
.
and
.
*Alfred Curtiss kit# 116079 .*.................part of the Frush and Froschauer families

the kits beginning with 9 are frush and Froschauer
.
.
It will seem to me the Z19945 will be split soon as it looks like a centre for other branches
.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

----------


## Sile

my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
.
0	Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
0	Timothy Brennan
0	Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
0	Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
0	Mr. Jack Jones 
0	Mr. Damjan Mozetic .................original name Mosetti from Trentino Italy
0	Richard A. Crump 
0	Gary Reddick ........................original name Radich from Hesse Germany
0	Michael William Benedetto 
0 Leonard Schales 
1	Donald Mattos ...............................original name Costa 
1 Petar Nikolov Petrov 
1	Daniel Ávila Caldeira 
1	Thomas Riley ....................................original name Wolfe
1	Gerhard Ludwig Fiedler 
1	Terry Brooks 
1	Douglas C. Bowen 
1	Francisco Bernot 
1	Eduardo Bernot 
1	K Fundora 
1	Inoncencio Higuera 
1	Richard George Perry ...................original name Pereira
1	Roy Curtis Parker 
1	Daniel Alexander Rossi

----------


## Salento

> my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
> red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
> blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
> .
> 0Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
> 0Timothy Brennan
> 0Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
> 0Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
> 0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
> ...


There are some on your list that are CTS1848, and others that are not in your list, that are confirmed Z19945, but still showing CTS8862 on FTDNA.

----------


## Sile

> There are some on your list that are CTS1848, and others that are not in your list, that are confirmed Z19945, but still showing CTS8862 on FTDNA.


all with a distance of 1 seem to be CTS1848 .............they still have Z19945
.
can you link your zero and 1 distance matches you have ?

----------


## Sile

> my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
> red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
> blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
> .
> 0	Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
> 0	Timothy Brennan
> 0	Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
> 0	Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
> 0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
> ...


There seem to be 2 x Reddick with T-M70 ........kit#51824 and kit# 58636
http://saterfiel.homestead.com/Johann_Peter_Arndt.html
this line from Ronneburg Hesse Germany are the ancestors of 
PeterArrant who married Molly Reddick , their son was
Reddick Knox Arrant who is T-M70 (58636)
..........
Molly Reddick brother is Kit# 51824 who is also T-M70 from Darnstadt Hesse Germany

----------


## Salento

> all with a distance of 1 seem to be CTS1848 .............they still have Z19945
> .
> can you link your zero and 1 distance matches you have ?


I have limited access to my results:
...... You will only see matches for the levels you have tested. .....

*CTS8862 (Positive).*
L25, PAGES00113, Y17493, and CTS1848 (All Negatives) were tested with ftdna.
I Tested for *Z19945 (Positive)*, and Retested again for CTS1848 (still Negative) with YSEQ.

12 Markers Matches
They are all M70, besides the Italian with CTS8862

They are too distant from me, and not even one of them match Your List of matches, so I don’t see the need to add their names.


25 Markers (Just Me)


37 Markers (Just me)


From the *T Project Z19945 / CTS1848 (Italians, Belgians, and the Brits)* you already know who they are.

----------


## Sile

> I have limited access to my results:
> ...... You will only see matches for the levels you have tested. .....
> *CTS8862 (Positive).*
> L25, PAGES00113, Y17493, and CTS1848 (All Negatives) were tested with ftdna.
> I Tested for *Z19945 (Positive)*, and Retested again for CTS1848 (still Negative) with YSEQ.
> 12 Markers Matches
> They are all M70, besides the Italian with CTS8862
> 
> They are too distant from me, and not even one of them match Your List of matches, so I don’t see the need to add their names.
> ...


thanks
The bottom map which has the marker in Cornwall England is Curtiss part of the Fuser family I linked above...post # 444

----------


## Sile

my map


the red marker near you is from Torretto..........he is a northern italian who married a German ...........I need to recheck but I think he is a cimbri
.
The orange marker near Rome is a mr. Viselli ....1 step distance from me and yet to be confirmed as Z19945

----------


## Rethel

Some news from ancient times?

----------


## Sile

> Some news from ancient times?


not the title

----------


## Leo7

Hello...I did DNA test with 23andme... My y-haplogroup is T-CTS8862. My relatives and anchestor until I know are from north tuscany (Italy)

----------


## Salento

> Hello...I did DNA test with 23andme... My y-haplogroup is T-CTS8862. My relatives and anchestor until I know are from north tuscany (Italy)


I’m Italian from Puglia, and I’m also T-CTS8862 at 23andme, but after testing with YSEQ, my haplogroup as of now is one step below: T-Z19945. 
Chances are that your final haplogroup is 1 step or 2 lower than CTS8862.
There are other Italians too. :)

----------


## Sile

> Hello...I did DNA test with 23andme... My y-haplogroup is T-CTS8862. My relatives and anchestor until I know are from north tuscany (Italy)


Confirmed another T-CTS8862 tuscan 
Leonardo Di Vita from Fermi Toscana
tested on 23andme v5
.
try to contact him on 23andme site

----------


## Salento

> Confirmed another T-CTS8862 tuscan 
> Leonardo Di Vita from Fermi Toscana
> tested on 23andme v5


Do you think that Leo7 could also be Z19945 or CTS1848?

----------


## Sile

> my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
> red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
> blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
> .
> 0	Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
> 0	Timothy Brennan
> 0	Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
> 0	Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
> 0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
> ...


Jack Jones above ...............original surname Eberhart from Baden Germany
.
Joseph mac Hill .............1500 origin was surname Seetz or Seytz or Seitz ....from southern Bavaria

----------


## Sile

> Do you think that Leo7 could also be Z19945 or CTS1848?


maybe

I think he should contact Leonardo in 23andme first

----------


## Leo7

If you can help me to know more about my specific haplogroup, I would be grateful

----------


## Salento

> If you can help me to know more about my specific haplogroup, I would be grateful


Look for big red oval CTS8489 (it’s another name for CTS8862) at the bottom left of the tree, is in the Europe Middle Bronze Age Branch, 3700 ybp old. 
Notice the mutations, you could be positive for some of them.
_Y T Phylogenetic Tree -_* Made by Alpenjager*, Thanks :) 



You need to get a Y chromosome deep test if you want to Know more.

https://www.yfull.com
https://www.yseq.net
https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna

You already know that you are CTS8862, if available test below that.

More info on T:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Y-haplogroup-T

----------


## Leo7

Thank you very much for the information. I had already seen Phylogenetic three but I did not know 3 links👍😀

----------


## Sile

> my map
> 
> the red marker near you is from Torretto..........he is a northern italian who married a German ...........I need to recheck but I think he is a cimbri
> .
> The orange marker near Rome is a mr. Viselli ....1 step distance from me and yet to be confirmed as Z19945


from another site..my matches

----------


## Huracan

> Look for big red oval CTS8489 (it’s another name for CTS8862) at the bottom left of the tree, is in the Europe Middle Bronze Age Branch, 3700 ybp old. 
> Notice the mutations, you could be positive for some of them.
> _Y T Phylogenetic Tree -_* Made by Alpenjager*, Thanks :) 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to get a Y chromosome deep test if you want to Know more.
> 
> https://www.yfull.com
> ...


@Sile, do you know what Alpenjager meant by marking CTS1848 as Andalusi refugees? I am intrigued as to how they came to mark it as such and what it means for our clades. Thanks.

----------


## Sile

> @Sile, do you know what Alpenjager meant by marking CTS1848 as Andalusi refugees? I am intrigued as to how they came to mark it as such and what it means for our clades. Thanks.


no idea 
.
while your line went to CTS1848 .........mine did not and went in the NW line as that is the only way to go.
.
I imagine that Z19945 will end up being a junction where a few lines will split off ...............I also think that Z19945 was created ( its origin) between Alsace and Bavaria .......there are too many that come from there

----------


## Caucasus

Sile, where does CTS6507 fit in on the T-M184 tree?

----------


## Sile

> Sile, where does CTS6507 fit in on the T-M184 tree?


under T1a1-P77
info
.
.
*T-P77**
T-Y4964 FGC3996/Y4964 * Z711/FGC3970 * Y4982/FGC3994formed 4900 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
T-Y4964*
T-Y29990 * Y29994 * Y29992+7 SNPsformed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpinfo
id:YF08255GRC
id:YF02393ARE
T-Y4990 FGC4009/Y4956/A22205 * CTS4647 * FGC4005+2 SNPsformed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybpinfo
T-Y4990*
id:YF02424IRQ
*T-CTS6507 formed 4400 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybpinfo
id:ERS256914ITA [IT-CA]*

----------


## Caucasus

Thanks a lot, Sile. You guys have been discovering amazing connections and networks bewteen people who never ever thought of having these common genetic bonds. I need to educate myself further on technical terms.
It would be amazing to create some dictionary or explanation on this tree so the laymen would be able to better understand these interesting links more easily.

----------


## Sile

> my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
> red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
> blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
> .
> 0	Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
> 0	Timothy Brennan
> 0	Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
> 0	Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
> 0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
> ...


at Kevin

I see Richard wrote to us and gave us his gedmatch ID ................he has zero connection with myself after I tested us through Gedmatch
since he is one distance from me , I assume then this 1 distance must be over 1500 years ago , basically the commencement of SNP CTS1848 ( which i am negative ) .
We then, are in the same boat ................
As for yourself with Richard, you must match as you both are positive CTS1848 .........would I assume this to be true?

----------


## Huracan

> at Kevin
> 
> I see Richard wrote to us and gave us his gedmatch ID ................he has zero connection with myself after I tested us through Gedmatch
> since he is one distance from me , I assume then this 1 distance must be over 1500 years ago , basically the commencement of SNP CTS1848 ( which i am negative ) .
> We then, are in the same boat ................
> As for yourself with Richard, you must match as you both are positive CTS1848 .........would I assume this to be true?


@Sile please use my username on this forum and yes I saw he emailed us, glad he reached out. I no longer have Gedmatch so I won't be able to find out how closely we are related in that sense. And yes, Richard is perhaps the closest to me in the clade thus far besides the Bernot family.

----------


## Sile

> @Sile please use my username on this forum and yes I saw he emailed us, glad he reached out. I no longer have Gedmatch so I won't be able to find out how closely we are related in that sense. And yes, Richard is perhaps the closest to me in the clade thus far besides the Bernot family.


np

In my previous post , where I showed my zero and 1 distance matches, the trend I get is that my zero distance matches have negative CTS1848, and the one with 1 distance matches seem to have positive CTS1848...............is that the case for yourself to myself?

----------


## Huracan

> np
> 
> In my previous post , where I showed my zero and 1 distance matches, the trend I get is that my zero distance matches have negative CTS1848, and the one with 1 distance matches seem to have positive CTS1848...............is that the case for yourself to myself?


For us that is true as you are 1 GD from me at 12 markers. As for the rest of my matches at this level, here is my list (and to keep your same color coding system: red are confirmed Z19945+ in the T project group while green are grouped with Z19945+ but not yet confirmed)

0 R. G. Perry
1 D. Mattos
1 E. H. Curtiss
1 J. Jones
1 V. Pretotto

----------


## Sile

> For us that is true as you are 1 GD from me at 12 markers. As for the rest of my matches at this level, here is my list (and to keep your same color coding system: red are confirmed Z19945+ in the T project group while green are grouped with Z19945+ but not yet confirmed)
> 0 R. G. Perry
> 1 D. Mattos
> 1 E. H. Curtiss
> 1 J. Jones
> 1 V. Pretotto


Thanks Huracan
here is the Frush family which Curtiss belongs to...looks like positive for CTS1848

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized
.
if you check the ftdna project above...you will see curtiss...plus all the T-M70 from the Frush line ......all confirmed Z19945 via the yFull team

.
................................

I do not remember................. if Jack Jones belongs to the Drakes of Plymouth ( not francis drake line ) or from ????? from Mengelsdorf old east Germany

----------


## Sile

> my current matches .........with zero or 1 distance.....from ftdna
> red is noted as SNP Z19945 group in Ftdna T project
> blue confirmed Z19945 but not in T project
> .
> 0	Carmine Anthony DiChiara 
> 0	Timothy Brennan
> 0	Mr. Maury Lamar Jones II 
> 0	Mr. Joseph "Mac" Hill 
> 0 William Bradshaw Atherholt 
> ...


Terry Brooks ancestors are Jonannes Brucke from Bamberg Germany
Elisabeth Brücke, 1587 - 1622
Elisabeth Brücke was born in 1587, in Elsoff Wittgenstein, to Johannes Rück.
Johannes was born in 1557, in Elsoff Wittgenstein.
Elisabeth married* Johannes Brücke* on February 16 1612, at age 25 in Elsoff Berleburg Wittgenstein.
Johannes was born in 1582.
They had one daughter: Eulalia Kloos (born Brücke).
Elisabeth passed away on December 24 1622, at age 35 in Elsoff Wittgenstein.
.
John Brucke 1610 -1679 
father of
john brooke 1636 -1695
father of
Benjamin Brooks 1685-1745

----------


## Sile

William ( bradshaw ) Atherholt ..ancestral line.'
.
Christian Atherholt 1724-1812 Hanover Germany
father of
Christian Atherholt 1756 - 1838 died in USA
father of 
John Atherholt 1817 -1883 USA
etc

----------


## Sile

Unsure what to make of phylogeographer
in regard to T haplogroup .............looks like they state the beginning was Mardin East Turkey
and my SNP of Z19945 created in Porrentruy Switzerland
.
Below is there map for my line
.
other map showed CTS1848 origins are East of Paris
.

.
These people have access to all genetic services and data can only be entered by administrators

----------


## Salento

> Unsure what to make of phylogeographer
> in regard to T haplogroup .............looks like they state the beginning was Mardin East Turkey
> and my SNP of Z19945 created in Porrentruy Switzerland
> .
> Below is there map for my line
> .
> other map showed CTS1848 origins are East of Paris
> .
> 
> ...


I noticed T CTS54 around Rome.
Z19945 is younger than CTS54.
... CTS54 > CTS8489 (CTS8862) > Z19945 > CTS1848
Just wondering if that CTS54 is final, or not.

ps I can’t figure out your Avatar, are you drowning upside-down? LOL
Wait, I see it now: Message in a Bottle. :)

----------


## Sile

> I noticed T CTS54 around Rome.
> Z19945 is younger than CTS54.
> ... CTS54 > CTS8489 (CTS8862) > Z19945 > CTS1848
> Just wondering if that CTS54 is final, or not.
> 
> ps I can’t figure out your Avatar, are you drowning upside-down? LOL
> Wait, I see it now: Message in a Bottle. :)


I spoke to the administrators and they state the the points are final, but the migrational route is not......CTS8489 is near Geneva on the map.
As I state , unsure how accurate it is , but as usual it would get better as they place more Yfull and Bigy samples into it.
I thought I better change my avatar since I ran it for over 2 years...........I did not know it is an "issue" for some

----------


## Huracan

> Unsure what to make of phylogeographer
> in regard to T haplogroup .............looks like they state the beginning was Mardin East Turkey
> and my SNP of Z19945 created in Porrentruy Switzerland
> .
> Below is there map for my line
> .
> other map showed CTS1848 origins are East of Paris
> .
> 
> ...


This is very interesting! I've never heard of this feature before and wonder how accurate it is. The migration pattern they propose is different than the ones I was hypothesizing for our clades all the way back to L446 and especially CTS11984... I don't think CTS11984/CTS54 originated in Italy because there is an Armenian in the T project that is CTS11984+. I think the Swiss Alp placement of CTS8489/CTS8862 is still consistent with the Ashkenazi Jewish CTS8862+ group in the T project since this population is believed to descend from Jews living along the Rhine and in the general surrounding region. Interesting nonetheless.

----------


## Salento

> This is very interesting! I've never heard of this feature before and wonder how accurate it is. The migration pattern they propose is different than the ones I was hypothesizing for our clades all the way back to L446 and especially CTS11984... I don't think CTS11984/CTS54 originated in Italy because there is an Armenian in the T project that is CTS11984+. I think the Swiss Alp placement of CTS8489/CTS8862 is still consistent with the Ashkenazi Jewish CTS8862+ group in the T project since this population is believed to descend from Jews living along the Rhine and in the general surrounding region. Interesting nonetheless.


L446 is more than 7000 years old, CTS11984/CTS54 almost 4.000, CTS8862 is about 3.100 years old.
Countless events, movements, tribal splits with consequential migrations, .... I could go on and on.
As an example, 400 years after was formed, the main tribe of CTS8862 could have split in 2-3 or 4 tribes, each one of them moving at different, or opposte directions. Each of the tribes eventually joined other populations.
Same examples applies to all clades.
Who Knows for sure.

----------


## Remund

I recently had my Uncle {on my mothers side} tested on 23andMe, to see what my deceased Grandfathers YDNA was. We are all 100% European, almost all Northern European. He was born in London England in 1901. So I was expecting a R1B, R1A, or a I1 12. But no.... we get a T-CTS6507 in Britain- less then 1%.!
Who else has this with a family tree in England, where can I start and try and get further details? further how or if does this tie into Thomas Jeffersons family tree or is this a different line. Looking for some help

----------


## Salento

> I recently had my Uncle {on my mothers side} tested on 23andMe, to see what my deceased Grandfathers YDNA was. We are all 100% European, almost all Northern European. He was born in London England in 1901. So I was expecting a R1B, R1A, or a I1 12. But no.... we get a T-CTS6507 in Britain- less then 1%.!
> Who else has this with a family tree in England, where can I start and try and get further details? further how or if does this tie into Thomas Jeffersons family tree or is this a different line. Looking for some help


Thomas Jefferson: T1a1a1b1a1a1 PF7444
Your Uncle: T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a CTS6507
Not a family tree connection with Jefferson, but a much older relation.

Your Uncle could be positive for more subclades. 
By Alpenjager:
... Thomas Jefferson belongs to T1a1a1b1a1a1-PF7444. Is a 5300ybp large and widely distributed West Eurasia T subclade also found well distributed in Great Britain but sadly still understudied in comparison to other T branches..

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post541447

Look for CTS6507 for matches:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## Sile

Corson line of T1a2-L446

Samuel Corson 1686 - 1764 born NY USA
wife Mary Potts 
.
f. Corneilius 1660 - 1719 born USA 
wife Hannah Hobbs
.
f. Jan Courson born south Netherlands
wife Truque Muche
.
f. Hendrick Courson born 1620 Netherlands
.
f. Jan Corssen born 1596 Netherlands
.
f. Peter Corssen born 1558 netherlands
wife Annetje Gerrits
.
.
Seem like another T-L446 that is north of the Alps

----------


## Sile

> This is very interesting! I've never heard of this feature before and wonder how accurate it is. The migration pattern they propose is different than the ones I was hypothesizing for our clades all the way back to L446 and especially CTS11984... I don't think CTS11984/CTS54 originated in Italy because there is an Armenian in the T project that is CTS11984+. I think the Swiss Alp placement of CTS8489/CTS8862 is still consistent with the Ashkenazi Jewish CTS8862+ group in the T project since this population is believed to descend from Jews living along the Rhine and in the general surrounding region. Interesting nonetheless.


The Placement of Z19945 is in the Jura caves/Jura mountains 
I ( and others) recently gave the person the ancient T samples ......shortly he will use these to reset the paths of T
we will see how accurate this is
I think that L446 did not originate in the eastern alps as some have noted, but further north, more likely the north european plain..............we seem to find far too many british families appear with T1a2 SNPs and also noted after the anglo-saxon invasion of England

----------


## Sile

my Global25 results
.
Barcin_N,56.6
Yamnaya_Samara,37.2
WHG,6
Yoruba,0.2
.
I am VG spot on map below......by myself
.

----------


## Salento

> my Global25 results
> .
> Barcin_N,56.6
> Yamnaya_Samara,37.2
> WHG,6
> Yoruba,0.2
> .
> I am VG spot on map below......by myself
> .


Northern Italy. 
Compare yourself with the T1a2 bbk # *CL23*: 



Nice! :)

----------


## Sile

I was given this from my Global25 numbers


and my cousin from Cles Trentino got same numbers except lower saxony ( 2 % ) instead of the English I got

----------


## Huracan

> my Global25 results
> .
> Barcin_N,56.6
> Yamnaya_Samara,37.2
> WHG,6
> Yoruba,0.2
> .
> I am VG spot on map below......by myself
> .


How did you calculate this for yourself, @Sile?

----------


## Sile

> How did you calculate this for yourself, @Sile?


no, through eurogenes and then another source
they basically said I am in "the ancient box " of the alps, not north italian or central italian and not tyrolese, not adriatic coast........basically seems to be around salzburg to heading to innsbruck.....I will link another map if I can relog back in , in the next 15 minutes
.
my other plot...........i am VG

the other North -east italians are also isolated......it seems the Bergamo ( north-italian ) is different

----------


## Sile

From the same eurogenes calculator as above .....compared to ancient samples
.
*"distance%=2.0102"
.
GERMANI, 34.8
ITALI, 33.6
GRAECI, 24.8
ILLYRII, 2.4
SYRIA, 2.4
VENEDI, 2*
.
Hiperboreans - people from far north for the Greeks.
.
Venedi for this test - Balto-Slavic people living in NE Europe 
...................................

after more ancient uploaded

my results have slightly changed to

*"distance%=2.0103"


GERMANI,34.4
ITALI,33.6
GRAECI,23
ILLYRII,3.6
SYRIA,3
NEURI SLAVI,2.4*

----------


## Sile

Another T1a2 that matches myself
*
William Henry Sizemore, 1844 - 1922
William Henry Sizemore was born on June 6 1844, in Christian, Kentucky, USA, to Henry William Sizemore and Elizabeth Messamore (born Parker).
Henry was born in 1809, in Virginia, USA.
Elizabeth was born in 1814, in North Carolina, USA.*
Oldest man I found from this line was 1553 in Middlesex England
.
.
He served in the Confederate States CSA during the civil war ..............but must of left Kentucky for South Carolina as Kentucky stayed in the Union even though it was a slave state
he was part of
3rd Battalion, South Carolina Light Artillery (Palmetto Battalion)
.
Brief History
.
The 3rd Battalion, South Carolina Light Artillery was also known the Palmetto Battalion, Palmetto Battalion Light Artillery, and White's Battalion South Carolina Light Artillery). It was organized in November/December of 1861. Its members were from the counties of Allendale, Richland, Charleston, Georgetown, and Kershaw. The battalion started with with three companies and seven others were added at various times, the last about June 21, 1863. known as the Palmetto Battalion Light Artillery, and also White's Battalion South Carolina Light Artillery. For some time the unit served in the Department of South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, but the companies were frequently detached to serve in other battalions. The 3rd Battalion Light Artillery was dissolved by the end of 1864.[1][2]
.
.
He matches my other T1a2 USA matches
David A Hill 1850, ........Georgia
Nathaniel Hill 1825, .......Virginia
William A hill 1782 ...North Carolina
and John M Hill 1819...South Carolina

----------


## Salento

​maybe related?
*
“Hunting Shirt” (Henry Sizemore)*
_1791 North Carolina - 1875 Clay, Kentucky
_


https://www.geni.com/people/Henry-Hu...00011759534491

----------


## Sile

a yfull find for a match for me 
.
YF06979 .......Henry Sizemore b. 1810 and d.1877
must be the father of Henry William Sizemore

----------


## Sile

> a yfull find for a match for me 
> .
> YF06979 .......Henry Sizemore b. 1810 and d.1877
> must be the father of Henry William Sizemore


https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surn...sizemore/1989/
Origin of the surname:
SIZEMORE (Eng.) Descendant of Sigmar (victory, great) dweller on the Saxon's wasteland1
When I checked the LDS IGI for England (Jan/Feb 1988) many years ago, I found numerous pages of records. There were 44 spelling variants of SIZEMORE. The earliest record was dated 1556 and largest concentration of the surname was in the county of Gloucester.2
.
another theory
The Sizemores have been in America since at least the 17th century. Some branches spell it Sisemore. The name is cognate with Cismor and other Portuguese surnames. 
is it Saxon, Suebi ancient invasion of iberia?
.
another ...hungarian surname Zizmer
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...sigmar&f=false
.
.
I only found that the sizemore surname are ydna T and Ydna Q

----------


## Huracan

> Another T1a2 that matches myself
> *
> William Henry Sizemore, 1844 - 1922
> William Henry Sizemore was born on June 6 1844, in Christian, Kentucky, USA, to Henry William Sizemore and Elizabeth Messamore (born Parker).
> Henry was born in 1809, in Virginia, USA.
> Elizabeth was born in 1814, in North Carolina, USA.*
> Oldest man I found from this line was 1553 in Middlesex England
> .
> .
> ...


Interesting update! I checked the FTDNA T group and saw that this Sizemore individual is only CTS11984+

----------


## Huracan

> https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surn...sizemore/1989/
> Origin of the surname:
> SIZEMORE (Eng.) Descendant of Sigmar (victory, great) dweller on the Saxon's wasteland1
> When I checked the LDS IGI for England (Jan/Feb 1988) many years ago, I found numerous pages of records. There were 44 spelling variants of SIZEMORE. The earliest record was dated 1556 and largest concentration of the surname was in the county of Gloucester.2
> .
> another theory
> The Sizemores have been in America since at least the 17th century. Some branches spell it Sisemore. The name is cognate with Cismor and other Portuguese surnames. 
> is it Saxon, Suebi ancient invasion of iberia?
> .
> ...


A good portion are I-M253 and R-M269 as well https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## Sile

> Interesting update! I checked the FTDNA T group and saw that this Sizemore individual is only CTS11984+


Henry william sizemore is the father of
William Henry sizemore 
.
Henry william sizemore is the Yfull and Ftdna person ..............yfull matched it first , then I received the match with ftdna
.
Initally, I was given the son as a match in Ftdna ................maybe the owner of the account updated his account ancestral trail

----------


## Sile

> A good portion are I-M253 and R-M269 as well https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


Two ftdna account kit numbers of the same person ...........the second one is a BigY test because it was presented to Yfull to analyse

----------


## Sile

T-CTS54 
.
T-CTS54*
id:YF06979USA [US-VA] ................<.Henry William Sizemore
id:NA20758ITA
.
T-CTS8489
id:ERS256892ITA [IT-CA]
.
T-CTS8489*
T-Y17493
id:YF04232
id:YF04203USA [US-NC]
.
T-Z19945
T-Z19945*
id:YF07608ITA [IT-TV]

----------


## Sile

It seems this person is not a sizemore as the sizemore family are mostly hap. Q
Ftdna test for this person in Y111 found 109 STR matches with the Powell T1a2 family, the assumptions is that the sizemore T1a2 in yfull was adopted from a Powell family in 1829

............................
.
I traced this line to Thomas Powell 1478-1525 in *Brecon Wales*.
His father had a welsh surname....*William Pwyll 1453 who married Catherine John.*
There is a french person ( from Lorraine ) as well as many others who have family trees with this person...
.
.
In ftdna all the Powell family and the one sizemore are in their own group
it is a dead group as it is negative for CTS8862 ......so until they find more non-family members, this group will remain as is

----------


## Sile

Another T1a2 match ( distant )

.
John McKee 1801 North carolina married, Ann Baahne
his father was
Jack Mckee born Virginia
his father
Robert Brown McKee 1692 - 1774 from Drumbo Ireland
died 11/6/1774 Virginia, 

hi father
Alexander Williams MacKey 1668 born Strathnaver Scotland
died 1740 Ireland
married Miriam Brown

----------


## Sile

another

T1a2-CTS8862
from shkoder , between albania and montenegro ( for 300 years ) ..........now lives in Kosovo

I think he is the recent kosovo noted person

----------


## Salento

> a yfull find for a match for me 
> .
> YF06979 .......Henry Sizemore b. 1810 and d.1877
> must be the father of Henry William Sizemore


Could you please clarify what kind of “match” you are referring to?
_
At your Leisure, No pressure_  :Smile: 

Technically: Henry with id:YF06979 is haplo cts54, so all clades below that are a match by default.

- or, Does it means that Henry is presumed to be at least Z19945?

- If not, what’s the meaning of a “Match” detached by 2-3 steps away from the Final clade?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS54*/

----------


## Sile

> Could you please clarify what kind of “match” you are referring to?
> _
> At your Leisure, No pressure_ 
> 
> Technically: Henry with id:YF06979 is haplo cts54, so all clades below that are a match by default.
> 
> - or, Does it means that Henry is presumed to be at least Z19945?
> 
> - If not, what’s the meaning of a “Match” detached by 2-3 steps away from the Final clade?
> ...


he is a match to me in yfull.......but his CTS54 has a * behind it in yfull, indicating a dead line or unfinished line..........as I said , he seems to be not a sizemore , but a powell 
search net for powell sizemore DNA ........
I do report if they match or do not match me in being close to our hapo line

----------


## Caucasus

Hey guys, do you have any idea why someone would get the result of belonging to T haplogroup without any subclade info from 23andme?

----------


## Salento

> Hey guys, do you have any idea why someone would get the result of belonging to T haplogroup without any subclade info from 23andme?


It would be very interesting to know where he comes from.

----------


## Caucasus

Salento, he has ancestors from Turkey and northwest Iran if that helps.

----------


## Salento

> Salento, he has ancestors from Turkey and northwest Iran if that helps.


Unless something has changed, I am only aware of one Man with a basic Y T (T-M184) still alive, and he’s from Armenia.

----------


## Caucasus

My applologies, I made a mistake. It is his mtdna Haplogroup T that does not have a sub-clade. He has no Armenian ancestors and does not have any matches from Armenia. He is an Iranian Azeri.

----------


## Sile

@salento

Has there been a change to the T tree in ftdna 
I was told that T1a3 became T1a2 ...and the T1a2 merged with T1a1

someone said I am now 
T1a1b1a1a1b2 - Z19945*

I am also positive CTS6071 like CL23 ( he is also T1a1 branch now ) 


can you check ?

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> Has there been a change to the T tree in ftdna 
> I was told that T1a3 became T1a2 ...and the T1a2 merged with T1a1
> someone said I am now 
> T1a1b1a1a1b2 - Z19945*
> I am also positive CTS6071 like CL23 ( he is also T1a1 branch now ) 
> can you check ?


We both match CL23 as positive at CTS6071. 

At FT they were doing something to the Tree this morning. 

At Isogg CTS8862 it is still under T1a2 (Strangely, I could swear T1a1, became T1a2 after refreshing the page, unless ...)



*


10 minutes later. Notice that L446 shifted from Gold to Green.
*

*

Part of the Tree, see if you can figure out if they merged.
*

----------


## Sile

> We both match CL23 as positive at CTS6071. 
> At FT they were doing something to the Tree this morning. 
> At Isogg CTS8862 it is still under T1a2 (Strangely, I could swear T1a1, became T1a2 after refreshing the page, unless ...)
> 
> *
> 10 minutes later. Notice that L446 shifted from Gold to Green.
> *
> 
> *
> ...


CL23 was also changed to T1a1 in this link of ancient T-M184 samples ............see the red one
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/41.77/28.96
.
BTW, purple ones seem origins of marker of the ones that do not belong to T1a1, T1a2 or T1a3

----------


## Sile

just check in yfull ...they have no amended the tree yet..............but have given me a new SNP branching out from Z19945
.
Haplogroup SNP 
− YF07608 BY32027 / Y70078 
− T-Z19945 Z19945
.
.
Have to wait and see if the BY32027 is ok......this is due to Yfull going from HG19 to HG38 system

----------


## Salento

> CL23 was also changed to T1a1 in this link of ancient T-M184 samples ............see the red one
> https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#4/41.77/28.96
> .
> BTW, purple ones seem origins of marker of the ones that do not belong to T1a1, T1a2 or T1a3


Unless they use a different nomenclature standard. Maybe?


*... Collegno 1350 yBP ( Early Medieval ) Longobard Period*



*CL23* ( 1310 -1380 yBP )
Phase: I
Y-DNA: *T1a1b1a1-CTS6071*
mtDNA: _H_
Strontium Sr: Non-local
Coverage: 2,952
Other IDs: COL001

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

doi https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-01 ...

----------


## Huracan

I did a deep dive into this paper and its supplementary material to get a better understanding.

CL23 (T-CTS6071 aka CTS933) and SZ36 (T-PF5620) were the only two Y-DNA T individuals found at the two Lombard burial sites dated to the mid 6th century CE -- CL23 from Collegno, Italy and SZ36 from Szólád, Hungary (Pannonia). Isotope ratio analyses showed they both were not local to the areas where they were buried. They were part of a genetically-distinct group of individuals that had mostly or entirely Southern European (SE) ancestry that was different than the Northern European (NE) Lombards that shared the cemetery. Their burial practices (lack of grave goods and plots being grouped together away from the Lombards) and nutritional data suggest they were of lower social status and did not really mix with the others.

At the Szólád site, all individuals seemed to be non-local, which is consistent with the highly mobile history of the Lombards and their launching point from this area to invade Italy in 568 CE."_In summary, the small Longobard period cemetery from Szólád is the necropolis of a small, wealthy, highly mobile and population from the middle of the sixth century. In grave construction and grave goods at least two groups can be distinguished, which suggest the integration of different traditions. The small population settled for only one generation in Pannonia at the shore of Lake Balaton and therefore appears to have been very mobile..."_ (Supplemental Information).The paper suggested that these SE individuals (including SZ36) could've migrated with the Lombards from elsewhere, but did not originate from the same area (different isotope ratio patterns). Supplemental info stated that the SE people could have still been from the area around Lake Balaton, but then went on to say that they were _not_ local and migrated to the area with the Lombards (a little confusing). This could mean that these SE peoples could have been serfs, slaves, or non-Germanic soldiers in their mixed ranks (very difficult to know at this point ... or to even guess). 

The Collegno site showed greater evidence of multigenerational family burials, hinting at the settlement and dominance of the Lombards in this region. The majority of those buried here were local, even the SE peoples who were suggested to be actual residents due to their genomic closeness to modern populations in the area. Only two SE individuals were non-local, one of them being CL23 (our main interest) who was from phase I: 570/590 to 630/640 CE and had high (>70%) Tuscan and Iberian (TSI+IBS) ancestry, one of a few in the cemetery to have this background. No inferences were made regarding his origin but what we can conclude was that he was of lower status, high Southern European ancestry, and not local to the area around Collegno.

The best I could do to get a better understanding of CL23 was looking at the PCA plots comparing ancestry to reference samples provided in the *Supplemental Information*. This was difficult to do and I realize this can lead to misleading conclusions.

*Supp Figure 23*: CL23 clusters among samples of the overlap area between Switzerland and Italy while SZ36 clusters with Italian samples. Additionally, CL23 is closest to HUs2 and SZ36 HUs 3, both Bronze Age Hungarian samples.*Supp Figure 25*: CL23 clustered more with Bergamo, Tuscan, and Bulgarian with some proximity to Iberian while SZ36 was strongly Tuscan with close proximity to Albanian.
*Supplementary Data 4* calculated the most likely modern population assigned to each ancient sample test using PAA. CL23 was assigned Portugal (probability 0.13) and Bulgaria (0.31) while SZ36 was assigned France (0.45) or Tuscany (0.29). Just as a reinforcement to what the paper stated, the local SE people buried at Collegno (CL25, 30, 31, 38, and 121) match Italy the most and with high probability (0.66-0.97), supporting their actual local origin.

This is what I could get from it. Feel free to review the sources and get a handle on the info (it is a lot).

Sources:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4.pdf 
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...of-migrations/ 
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8532796.html

----------


## Huracan

Just realized this was discussed in the other T thread as well, interesting that other genetic comparisons and analyses showed him as more like a North Italian Bell Beaker.

----------


## Salento

The hierarchy in letters of the SNPs maybe is changing because NEW Z19859 is above L131.

M70 - T1a
—L162 - T1a1 
-—Z19859 - T..???
-——L131 - was/is T1a2???
———L1255 -was/is T1a3???




> *Used to be:*
> M70 - T1a
> —L162 - T1a1
> -—L131 - T1a2
> ——L1255 T1a3

----------


## Sile

> Just realized this was discussed in the other T thread as well, interesting that other genetic comparisons and analyses showed him as more like a North Italian Bell Beaker.


yes, CL23 is the closest sample from the lombard paper that plots next to the North-Italian bell Beaker sample

----------


## Sile

> The hierarchy in letters of the SNPs maybe is changing because NEW Z19859 is above L131.
> 
> M70 - T1a
> —L162 - T1a1 
> -—Z19859 - T..???
> -——L131 - was/is T1a2???
> ———L1255 -was/is T1a3???


from T project admin...............*Z19859 sits right in the middle of DYZ19 region which is harder to sequence. In Yfull one has a mixture of C and G reads.
haplogroup T2 ( Bhutan and armenia ) and T1a3 ( oldest origin in south Kazakhstan ) are clean of the SNP , while T1a1 and T1a2 have mixed reads for this.
So, Z19859 could be equal to M70 ..........Z19859 is over 16k years ago*
.
meaning that T2-PH110 and T1a3 are completly split from T1a1 and T1a2 as they do have SNP Z19859 .................maybe this connection is why it looks like they will merge T1a2 into T1a1

----------


## Salento

T-CTS6071 is about 7000 ybp old, but the CL23-Man is 1310 -1380 ybp old.

Add more clades to go to T-CTS8862 that is about 3700 ybp old.

There’s a gap of about 3300 years between the 2 Clades.

----------


## Huracan

> T-CTS6071 is about 7000 ybp old, but the CL23-Man is 1310 -1380 ybp old.
> 
> Add more clades to go to T-CTS8862 that is about 3700 ybp old.
> 
> There’s a gap of about 3300 years between the 2 Clades.


Yes so this is significant as it actually confirms that L446 and CTS933 were present in Europe at this time and based on CL23's matching to Bell Beaker people, the clades were involved in the Neolithic spread from the Near East as well. 

CTS933/CTS6071 formed 7,700 ybp (5750 BCE) | TMRCA 6,700 ybp (4750 BCE), which is within the range of expansion of Neolithic cultures into Europe. Its possible presence among the Bell Beaker means it was involved in this movement of peoples and cultural elements from Atlantic Europe eastward into the rest of Europe. Descendants of those that arrived in Italy (especially the Po Valley) would've included CL23? becoming the substrate of the "Roman" population that remained there through the Lombard invasion. 

Based on online searches, not sure if this means CTS933 was involved in the Corded Ware too (which they say is the predecessor of Bell Beaker) in which case stems from the Yamna and ultimately supporting a Caucasus origin in a way (or it was picked up in SE Europe from the previous Neolithic substrate). Want to know what you all think about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/neoli...rope_map.shtml

----------


## Sile

my closest ancient matches in regards to samples
distance%: 0.16
.
Germany_Medieval 21.41
Balkans_ChL 10.11
LBK_N 9.87
Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 9.63
Vinca_MN 7.14
Baltic_BA 5.68
Sweden_Viking_Age 5.28
Gonur1_BA 4.45
Sintashta_MLBA 4.15
Tisza_LN 4.07
LBK_N_Austria 3.83
Anatolia_MLBA_low_res 3.71
Italy_Medieval_Collegno 3.42
Cimmerian_Moldova 3.29
Scythian_Moldova 3.06
Tepe_Hissar_ChL 0.91
................................
further breakdown using central european only samples from above
Here is a model that seemed OK with Lombards, Medieval Germans, and Scythians:
distance%: 0.65
.
Scythian_Hungary_DA198 36.65
Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL63 21.28
Germany_Medieval_STR_486 14.08
Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL36 13.64
Scythian_Moldova_scy197 8.53
Italy_Medieval_Collegno_CL23 3.33
Scythian_Moldova_scy300 2.49

----------


## Huracan

> my closest ancient matches in regards to samples
> distance%: 0.16
> .
> Germany_Medieval 21.41
> Balkans_ChL 10.11
> LBK_N 9.87
> Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul 9.63
> Vinca_MN 7.14
> Baltic_BA 5.68
> ...


How did you do this? What calculator or site did you use?

----------


## Sile

> How did you do this? What calculator or site did you use?


Its a 2 step process ...........I have to recheck who it was and what I paid...........then the one above was done for free ...............i have to get back to you

----------


## Salento

@Sile nMonte3 EU 13...

The Bottom 2, old Illyrian - Messapic?
any thoughts?

----------


## Sile

> @Sile nMonte3 EU 13...
> 
> The Bottom 2, old Illyrian - Messapic?
> any thoughts?


Is RO romanian ?

I already submitted a paper which states Messapic was an east balkan language ............we need to find out who the Iapgians are as Measspic are Iapgian people of Italy

----------


## Salento

Yes it is. .....
The Iapygians lived in Puglia, and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.

----------


## Sile

> The hierarchy in letters of the SNPs maybe is changing because NEW Z19859 is above L131.
> 
> M70 - T1a
> —L162 - T1a1 
> -—Z19859 - T..???
> -——L131 - was/is T1a2???
> ———L1255 -was/is T1a3???


I was given
.
T - M184
T1 - L206
T1a - M70
T1a1 - Z19859
T1a1b - L131 ..........old T1a2
.
.
The T1a1a branch is L162
.
.
T1a3 is to become T1a2

----------


## Sile

> @Sile nMonte3 EU 13...
> 
> The Bottom 2, old Illyrian - Messapic?
> any thoughts?


what is this run from?

----------


## Salento

> what is this run from?


EU 13 DnaPortal, nMonte3 Oracle.

----------


## Sile

> EU 13 DnaPortal, nMonte3 Oracle.


thanks.....completely forgot about this site
.
.
Closest population distance .............using nMonte3
Population Distance
North_Italian 0.6536449
Tuscan 1.0947434
Romanian 1.1815506
Portuguese 1.2324841
Spanish_Galicia 1.3159366
.
.
.
Population Value
North_Italian 46.6
Tuscan 10.6
RO 5.6
French_Basque 3.8
Sardinian 3.6
.
.
I presume they got the galician from french Basque

----------


## Salento

Could it be that RO is the common connection to Illyria?

----------


## Sile

> Could it be that RO is the common connection to Illyria?


linguistically , yes

romanian = dacians ...............before changing to Latin language, their language was a mix of thracian and illyrian coming from the proto- celtic-italic-illyrian-dacian-thracian group ( I have already placed some info about this a few months ago )

try searching .....what did the dacians speak before Latin

----------


## Sile

another who is Z19945

Wilhelm Wolff, 
Birthdate: November 21, 1627
Birthplace: Baden-Württemberg, Germany

his line appears as Johan Wolf in the T ftdna 

................................................
.
in facebook, they have matched me with a norwegian line of Fure-Hessenes family, they have been dna tested as T-M70 ............I will await results

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

> another who is Z19945
> 
> Wilhelm Wolff, 
> Birthdate: November 21, 1627
> Birthplace: Baden-Württemberg, Germany
> 
> his line appears as Johan Wolf in the T ftdna 
> 
> ................................................
> ...


You just reminded me to check my FTDNA and after a year I've finally found my first 37 marker match! Eek - not the same surname... I think that's normal for Ashkenazim right? From 23andme I at least know both my bio parents are who they say they are, but maybe that isn't the case further down the male line?

----------


## Salento

> You just reminded me to check my FTDNA and after a year I've finally found my first 37 marker match! Eek - not the same surname... I think that's normal for Ashkenazim right? From 23andme I at least know both my bio parents are who they say they are, but maybe that isn't the case further down the male line?


Are you y T?

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

> Are you y T?


Nah, but I just posted in this thread anyway

----------


## Salento

> Nah, but I just posted in this thread anyway


I see. LOL

----------


## Huracan

> another who is Z19945
> 
> Wilhelm Wolff, 
> Birthdate: November 21, 1627
> Birthplace: Baden-Württemberg, Germany
> 
> his line appears as Johan Wolf in the T ftdna 
> 
> ................................................
> ...


Great to see more Z19945 individuals are being identified. Is Wolf in the Y-DNA T group results page? I do not see him among us...

----------


## Sile

> Great to see more Z19945 individuals are being identified. Is Wolf in the Y-DNA T group results page? I do not see him among us...


he is kit B239544
they have not ungraded the T project yet

.
...........................
.
I will post names of 3 more Z19945 in the following week , all east-german, czech, pole ...............they are not part of the T project

----------


## Salento

_Recent Ancestors V2 (Admixture Studio)

_

----------


## Salento

_Y-DNA Ancestral Origins by Country_

None of these matches are labeled T-Z19945.

They vary from T-M70 to T-CTS8862.

I guess the resemblance goes back thousands of years.

(Got a message saying they're updating the Haplogroups at FTDNA, soon).

----------


## Salento

SNP Tracker:
from Y Adam to T-Z19945





http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## zanipolo

> SNP Tracker:
> from Y Adam to T-Z19945
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html


other Z19945 placement .....................between your and below could be the true spot

----------


## Salento

> other Z19945 placement .....................between your and below could be the true spot





> 


Halfway between the two maps: the True Spot ???

----------


## Salento

> I already submitted a paper which states Messapic was an east balkan language ............we need to find out who the Iapgians are as Measspic are Iapgian people of Italy





> The Iapygians lived in Puglia, and were divided in three populations: the Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.


@Sile The Iapygians-Illyrians connection, probably :)

----------


## zanipolo

> @Sile The Iapygians-Illyrians connection, probably :)


The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes) [Greek,"Ιάποδες"] were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula. The first written mention of an Illyrian tribe known as "Iapydes" is by Hecataeus of Miletus. 
.
Messapic

These tribes (Iapygian or Messapic tribes) did not dwell in Illyria, but in the heel of southern Italy. They could have had Illyrian origins[143] or some sort of link with Illyria.

Messapii
Dauni
Peucetii linked to the Liburnian Peucetias
* Iapyges linked to the Iapodes, who were sometimes also called Iapyges*
.
.
Are these messapic Iapyges the ones that came from near the Liburnians....the Iapodes ??

----------


## Salento

_SZ36 (T1a1...) and CL23 (T1a2 L446)_ according to MyTrueAncestry:

SZ36 is my Top Archaeogenetic match in 2 of my Kits.
*
SZ36*
1. Central Roman (590 AD) (11.64)

_Modern Group_
1. Tuscan (2.937)
2. North_Italian (8.213)
3. West_Sicilian (8.444)
4. Kosovan (8.963)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (9.271)
6. Greek (9.454)
7. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)
8. East_Sicilian (12.06)
*

CL23*
Medieval Iberian (670 AD) (23.26)



_Modern Group_
1. North_Italian (10.06)
2. Spanish_Andalucia (10.28)
3. Spanish_Valencia (11.60)
4. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (11.71)
5. Spanish_Extremadura (11.72)
6. Spanish_Murcia (11.87)
7. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (12.57)
8. Spanish_Cataluna (12.89)



_My K36 Ancient results:_

----------


## torzio

> _SZ36 (T1a1...) and CL23 (T1a2 L446)_ according to MyTrueAncestry:
> 
> SZ36 is my Top Archaeogenetic match in 2 of my Kits.
> *
> SZ36*
> 1. Central Roman (590 AD) (11.64)
> 
> _Modern Group_
> 1. Tuscan (2.937)
> ...


mine

*Closest population distances

Population Distance

EMA_north-Italian_NW_54 1.197928
CL36_north-Italian 1.237396
CL57_north-Italian 1.330768
SZ28_north-Italian 1.438457
SZ43_north-Italian 1.541763
CL63_Alpine 1.577491
SZ37_Greek-Italian 1.615911
BA_Hungary_BR2 1.63093 


how different are we and we are both T1a2 ..................clearly our T has been in Europe a very very long time
*

----------


## torzio

a curiousity

Yfull has this for snp Z19945

T-Z19945Z19945formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybp





so, 3100- ybp 1950 = 1150BCE .............this is the exact year that Venetic speaking people where known in Eastern alps ( as per studies by Elisa Perego , oxford univ )

https://journals.openedition.org/mefra/2503



https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Veneto_Italy

----------


## Salento

> mine
> 
> *Closest population distances
> 
> Population Distance
> 
> EMA_north-Italian_NW_54 1.197928
> CL36_north-Italian 1.237396
> CL57_north-Italian 1.330768
> ...





> a curiousity
> 
> Yfull has this for snp Z19945
> 
> T-Z19945Z19945formed 3100 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybp
> 
> so, 3100- ybp 1950 = 1150BCE .............this is the exact year that Venetic speaking people where known in Eastern alps ( as per studies by Elisa Perego , oxford univ )
> 
> https://journals.openedition.org/mefra/2503
> ...



It’s possible that Z19945 developed in E.Alps, or it could also be Salento. 

I don’t see why not, it’s all conjecture and coincidence.

That’s more than 3100 yeas ago. 

You looked for differences, I looked for similarities instead.

You match some of my Ancient Samples too.
_
My K36 Ancient:_
CL25_south_Italian 1.325678
SZ40_Italian 1.332341
CL31_Greek_Balkan 1.55981
SZ36_north-Italian 1.56524
EMA_Greek-Balkan_AEH_1 1.579821
SZ19_Italian-Balkan 1.634897
CL36_north-Italian 1.655377
SZ37_Greek-Italian 1.671724

----------


## Salento

> The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes) [Greek,"Ιάποδες"] were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians, off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian peninsula. The first written mention of an Illyrian tribe known as "Iapydes" is by Hecataeus of Miletus. 
> .
> Messapic
> 
> These tribes (Iapygian or Messapic tribes) did not dwell in Illyria, but in the heel of southern Italy. They could have had Illyrian origins[143] or some sort of link with Illyria.
> 
> Messapii
> Dauni
> Peucetii linked to the Liburnian Peucetias
> ...



Whomever wrote that Iapygians or Messapi didn’t “dwell” in Illyria, needs to see this:

----------


## torzio

> It’s possible that Z19945 developed in E.Alps, or it could also be Salento. 
> I don’t see why not, it’s all conjecture and coincidence.
> That’s more than 3100 yeas ago. 
> You looked for differences, I looked for similarities instead.
> You match some of my Ancient Samples too.
> _
> My K36 Ancient:_
> CL25_south_Italian 1.325678
> SZ40_Italian 1.332341
> ...


Iapydes/Iapygians/Illyrians could be the source of Z19945
One group went to south italy and the other to eastern alps

----------


## Salento

> Iapodes/Illyrians could be the source of Z19945
> One group went to south italy and the other to eastern alps


It’s possible, maybe 2 bros had a fight and said: “that’s it, I go South and you go North, ... and don’t follow me!” LOL :)

----------


## torzio

> It’s possible, maybe 2 bros had a fight and said: “that’s it, I go South and you go North, ... and don’t follow me!” LOL :)


References at bottom in wiki thread
Iapygian-tarentni wars are interesting

----------


## Joey37

Y-haplogroups and your closest match on Mytrueancestry.com may not be exactly equivalent; my haplogroup is R1a and my closest match is Bell Beaker Scotland, 2150 BC. If they ever found R1a in Bell Beaker...Carlos Quiles would have a stroke.

----------


## torzio

> References at bottom in wiki thread
> Iapygian-tarentni wars are interesting



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygian-Tarentine_Wars

----------


## torzio

another T with Z19945 marker

http://www.ginaology.com/rootspersona-tree/daniel-curtiss/


https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## Salento

> another T with Z19945 marker
> 
> http://www.ginaology.com/rootspersona-tree/daniel-curtiss/
> 
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


... and that makes two Colonial Era T-Z19945 in CT (Brooks and Curtiss).

I’m the first newcomer to the US from my family, so there can’t be any recent connection.




> Another T1a2-z19945 match in ftdna
> John Brooks .......check link for the john with 3g in his name
> https://www.tributaries.info/ui49.htm#a2
> his father John 1g ..........is from Windsor, Connecticut.......the same place as the family named Drake from Windsor, Connecticut. They where also haplogroup T

----------


## Salento

imo it’s time to decently re-test the Thomas Jefferson relatives, bet you they’ve got more subclades!

----------


## torzio

> imo it’s time to decently re-test the Thomas Jefferson relatives, bet you they’ve got more subclades!


they have , but family will not allow more testing .............or even living family members

my guess is he is from modern wales and before that iberia and before that coastal egypt

----------


## torzio

> ... and that makes two Colonial Era T-Z19945 in CT (Brooks and Curtiss).
> 
> I’m the first newcomer to the US from my family, so there can’t be any recent connection.


all the T in the ftdna link i presented are Z19945

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## Salento

> all the T in the ftdna link i presented are Z19945
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


I think that there are many more T-Z19945 in CT.

In a store in the Town of the Brooks, an old Man was following me around, and then with tears in his eyes said that I looked exactly like his (dead) Father, ...... anyway, all he Knows is that he’s a multi-generational local, and he’s an Anglo-German-Swiss mix, I told him that I’m Italian. 

At first I thought he was a “confused” old man, (I look S.Eur.) ... who knows.

It doesn’t prove anything, but’s he’s not the only person that told me that I look familiar in that Town.

... that said, People often say that I look familiar to them.

----------


## torzio

more closer in regards to the age in the placing of T-Z19945

----------


## torzio

In the new viking paper there is one T1a2 with mtdna of H1b1
Origin from Hemse , south gotland island, origin...found in skara , western sweden
Skara was founded by Geats, also referred as Goths
................
Other T is Other branch....T1a1a with mtdna U5a2a1b found Ladoga near Leningrad Russia

----------


## torzio

Geats where referred as Goutai by Ptolemy, while Jordanes called them Ostrogoths

----------


## HYGILI4K

> Geats where referred as Goutai by Ptolemy, while Jordanes called them Ostrogoths


According to table S6, VK398 was more than 1/3 italian-like. Couldn't this mean something? Italian ancestry?

----------


## HYGILI4K

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...?download=true

The spreadsheet, table S6

----------


## torzio

> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...?download=true
> 
> The spreadsheet, table S6



thanks........sample VK398 .......... T1a2 ydna

nearly 39% "italian"
33% danish
13% british



below sample VK17 ............T1a1 yda

48% finnish
41% swedish

----------


## Salento

> In the new viking paper there is one T1a2 with mtdna of H1b1
> Origin from Hemse , south gotland island, origin...found in skara , western sweden
> Skara was founded by Geats, also referred as Goths
> ................
> Other T is Other branch....T1a1a with mtdna U5a2a1b found Ladoga near Leningrad Russia


About the T1a1a Viking with mtDNA of U5a2a1b.

Surprisingly I know people from the Benevento province (Campania, Italy) with the same mtDNA.

----------


## torzio

2 more T-L446 in 23andme ...................both noted as 3rd to 5th cousins from myself and father

surname
Riggi from Belluno

Lehnus from Gorizia


2 others noted as T-L446 one is very old ........none related to me , so far

Erspamer b. 1701 from Malosco Trentino


Ulrich Blarer b.1190 from Saint Gallen Switzerland .......T-CTS11984

>>>>>>>>.................................

to finish off

Zuanne De Zen b.about 1500 from Porcia Pordenone Friuli ..................3rd to 5th cousin

Di Cori ......T-CTS8862 from Artena in Lazio Province .....................not related

Sebok  and Murrin .......T-CTS6507 from Regensberg Germany ....................Sebok is related, Murrin is not



*This relationship to me is based on 23andme ,, I do not know how accurate they are*

----------


## Salento

> 2 more T-L446 in 23andme ...................both noted as 3rd to 5th cousins from myself and father
> 
> surname
> Riggi from Belluno
> 
> Lehnus from Gorizia
> 
> 
> 2 others noted as T-L446 one is very old ........none related to me , so far
> ...


On 23andme, can you query your matches by Haplogroup? 

(I deleted my 23 .... long ago)

----------


## torzio

> On 23andme, can you query your matches by Haplogroup? 
> 
> (I deleted my 23 .... long ago)



yes it downloads an excel sheet.....

----------


## Duarte

> On 23andme, can you query your matches by Haplogroup? 
> 
> (I deleted my 23 .... long ago)


*Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Haplotree*


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...k2/dna-results

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/T

----------


## torzio

> *Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Haplotree*
> 
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...k2/dna-results
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/T


Yes he is in the ftdna T project under Z19945........thank you

Age of Z19945 is 3410 years from year 1950 
so it is 3410+ 69 ( 2019-1950 =69 ) is 3479 years

----------


## torzio

Found a 4th cousin relative with same ydna as myself in Blanzaguet-Saint-Cybard France with surname Tazzer.....under another cousin surname Bacchion in castelfranco, Veneto.
Unsure if the 23andme 4th cousins really means 4th cousins or later

----------


## torzio

Another ftdna T1a2 match ( a distance of 1 ) with myself yesterday......from the persons family tree, i went back to

Herman Im Hoff from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuwied
b 1601

had son .....Antonius b.1620 d.1677 same place but in heddersdorf , Neuwied, Pfalz

----------


## torzio

Another ftdna match..
Michael Lemke 1766-1813
From rosenberg, west prussia
Married Gottliebe Schachten from Norway

Current ancestors line Brian Lemke Usa

----------


## torzio

Another match.......i seem to be getting a lot of matches....i wonder if it is due to my 700 results coming in today

Georg Fischer T-L446
1829 chemitz , old east-germany
Ftdna 171516

----------


## Salento

> Another match.......i seem to be getting a lot of matches....i wonder if it is due to my 700 results coming in today
> 
> Georg Fischer T-L446
> 1829 chemitz , old east-germany
> Ftdna 171516


Congrats for the Y700 test.

Did you get the results already? or, are you still waiting for them? :)

----------


## torzio

> Congrats for the Y700 test.
> 
> Did you get the results already? or, are you still waiting for them? :)


Due today

The last 2 matching people could be errors....i do not know why ftdna asked me more questions and survey about my family lines

----------


## Salento

> Due today
> 
> The last 2 matching people could be errors....i do not know why ftdna asked me more questions and survey about my family lines


Probably to build a database with Timing, Relations, Names, and Locations, to so compare with present and future possible matches, and to figure out and to follow their movements and migrations.

----------


## torzio

> Probably to build a database with Timing, Relations, Names, and Locations, to so compare with present and future possible matches, and to figure out and to follow their movements and migrations.


Did you get this questionaire from ftdna ?

----------


## Salento

> Did you get this questionaire from ftdna ?


I see an option for the Family Ancestry Survey on the main page (I guess everybody can take the *optional* Survey).

----------


## torzio

> I see an option for the Family Ancestry Survey on the main page (I guess everybody can take the *optional* Survey).


they put my test back to 11 Sept.....batch 953 ........crap

----------


## torzio

> Another ftdna T1a2 match ( a distance of 1 ) with myself yesterday......from the persons family tree, i went back to
> 
> Herman Im Hoff from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuwied
> b 1601
> 
> had son .....Antonius b.1620 d.1677 same place but in heddersdorf , Neuwied, Pfalz


further contact
Herman married Triggen Kupperskotten

Antonius married Anna Polch b. 23/2/1617 Pfalz

----------


## torzio

Have an old 23andme match with a family named Prevedel, from Brez, Trento.........they have come about with another link i have from same area , named Neumann......(this one also appear in ftdna matches, as a 3rd cousin )
I was wondering on how can i link the 3 families and see if it is a ydna or mtdna match

----------


## torzio

> I see an option for the Family Ancestry Survey on the main page (I guess everybody can take the *optional* Survey).


results are in ...........awaiting completion

Big Y-700
 Ordered
 03/27/2019
 953


 Big Y-700
 Batched
 03/27/2019
 953


 Big Y-700
 Completed
 09/06/2019
 953





I had to give them where my paternal and maternal lines came from ..................not including cousins, uncles etc.......just a direct line 
below is from 1450 to 1950 .......these are only birth and death markers

----------


## torzio

latest position by ftdna site on T-Z19945

looks like Vienna area

----------


## Lemonade

latest position by ftdna site on T-Z19945

looks like Vienna area

Where can I find such maps on ftdna site?

----------


## torzio

> latest position by ftdna site on T-Z19945
> 
> looks like Vienna area
> 
> Where can I find such maps on ftdna site?


http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## torzio

> results are in ...........awaiting completion
> 
> Big Y-700
>  Ordered
>  03/27/2019
>  953
> 
> 
>  Big Y-700
> ...


global 10 analysis for myself

Distance: 1.5981% / 0.01598092
Aggregated

53.8
Italian_Lombardy



23.8
German_East



13.4
Sicilian_East



2.8
Italian_Liguria



2.6
Belarusian

----------


## torzio

I have a 0 step away match in ftdna with william hill...in wikitree site, his tree is associated with another T-m70 person , named erspamer ( somewhere in the veneti alps ), yet this erspamer is not linked to me....yet when i go down their wikitree line...i am 1 step from their ancestor the Koethe line from grossfurra, thuringa
I really wonder if ftdna step matching really works

----------


## torzio

> I have a 0 step away match in ftdna with william hill...in wikitree site, his tree is associated with another T-m70 person , named erspamer ( somewhere in the veneti alps ), yet this erspamer is not linked to me....yet when i go down their wikitree line...i am 1 step from their ancestor the Koethe line from grossfurra, thuringa
> I really wonder if ftdna step matching really works


https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hill-3101

----------


## HYGILI4K

> I have a 0 step away match in ftdna with william hill...in wikitree site, his tree is associated with another T-m70 person , named erspamer ( somewhere in the veneti alps ), yet this erspamer is not linked to me....yet when i go down their wikitree line...i am 1 step from their ancestor the Koethe line from grossfurra, thuringa
> I really wonder if ftdna step matching really works


I'm not an expert, but I think it depends on how much markers are compared. I.E, a 12 markers 0 step match doesn't necessary mean anything close.


Despite having tested 111 markers, I have only 12 markers matches. Some of my matches aren't even P312!

----------


## torzio

> I'm not an expert, but I think it depends on how much markers are compared. I.E, a 12 markers 0 step match doesn't necessary mean anything close.
> 
> 
> Despite having tested 111 markers, I have only 12 markers matches. Some of my matches aren't even P312!


agree....could be 1000 years apart

----------


## torzio

further contact today with a T-Z19945 who matches me in ftdna

from *Balduzzi family of Trentino, Italy

*There is a name change somewhere
as these all link into each other
* Adam Wolff 
*Birth
21 Nov 1627 Stadtkreis Freiburg im Breisgau, Baden-Württemberg, Germany




his son is
Heinrich Wolff 
Birth
1650 

Death
1733 (aged 82–83)





his son is
Johann Adam Wolff 
Birth
7 Feb 1688 

Death
18 Sep 1741 (aged 53)





wife of johan was* Maria Barbara Weydler*

1689–1769

----------


## torzio

> Another ftdna T1a2 match ( a distance of 1 ) with myself yesterday......from the persons family tree, i went back to
> 
> Herman Im Hoff from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuwied
> b 1601
> 
> had son .....Antonius b.1620 d.1677 same place but in heddersdorf , Neuwied, Pfalz


1 step from myself

1

 Christopher Daryl Hoff           Y-DNA37 FF 


 Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677

----------


## torzio

> further contact today with a T-Z19945 who matches me in ftdna
> 
> from *Balduzzi family of Trentino, Italy
> 
> *There is a name change somewhere
> as these all link into each other
> * Adam Wolff 
> *Birth
> 21 Nov 1627 Stadtkreis Freiburg im Breisgau, Baden-Württemberg, Germany
> ...


1 step from myself

1 

 Thomas Riley(Wolf)           Y-DNA67 FF 


 Johann Adam Wolff, b.1688 and d. 1741

----------


## torzio

> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hill-3101


1 step from myself


1

 A L Hill           Y-DNA37 



 William W. Hill 1816-1894, Washington Co. GA

----------


## torzio

a 23andme match with myself....unsure how accurate 23andme is

surname - Lehnus

3 households in Lombardy and 2 in Friuli ( gorizia town )

ydna - T-L446
mtdna - X2b4

4th cousin

.........................

Lehnus matches the Bernot line of Walloon Belgium , whose ancestors are also from gorizia Friuli

----------


## BMW

> latest position by ftdna site on T-Z19945
> 
> looks like Vienna area



Straddling Slovakia and Hungary?

----------


## torzio

> Straddling Slovakia and Hungary?


looks like it

BTW...i match with a Patrick Walsh in ftdna matches and both match with the Neuman and Poe families ...........anything to do with yourself?

----------


## BMW

> looks like it
> 
> BTW...i match with a Patrick Walsh in ftdna matches and both match with the Neuman and Poe families ...........anything to do with yourself?


No....a different Walsh.
I have been in contact with Victor Pretotto on the T project (FTDNA) who is a 3rd Cousin - 5th Cousin to a Patrick Walsh on FTDNA....probably the same Patrick. Victor is also a T-Z19945 with ties to Val di Non / Trentino.

----------


## BMW

I do not match Patrick on FTDNA. I'd like to contact him but I guess there would be no other way besides plastering e-mail addresses all over the place.
Any suggestions?

----------


## torzio

> I do not match Patrick on FTDNA. I'd like to contact him but I guess there would be no other way besides plastering e-mail addresses all over the place.
> Any suggestions?


So the patrick walsh in ftdna t project in the z19945 group is not you ?!?....so i thought mr.henson placed you with me

----------


## Salento

Map: Z19945 Z19943 CTS1848

----------


## BMW

> So the patrick walsh in ftdna t project in the z19945 group is not you ?!?....so i thought mr.henson placed you with me


¡Ay, caramba!

These are two different Patrick Walsh's.
There is one on Family Finder on FTDNA who is a match of Victor Pretotto's...and would be contemporary of all of us.
My 2nd great grandfather Patrick Walsh is the one listed on the ftdna t project in the z19945 group.

----------


## BMW

> looks like it
> 
> BTW...i match with a Patrick Walsh in ftdna matches and both match with the Neuman and Poe families ...........anything to do with yourself?


I took this as meaning the one in Family Finder....my bad.

----------


## torzio

> Map: Z19945 Z19943 CTS1848


mine below







bottom one in Italy is ...Michael William Benedetto ...........

----------


## torzio

Another match for myself in ftdna


paul lello 

2nd Cousin - 4th Cousin

Shared cM 45

 Longest block 20




Sent message , awaiting more info......what I found is below ( how accurate , unsure )


* Traccia araldica :
Lello*

Antica famiglia del Trentino, con residenza nella città di Trento. Carlo, principe - vescovo di Trento, con diploma 20 settembre 1620, creò nobile ereditario dell'Impero Pietro Lello, canonico vicario generale e suo Vescovo coadiutore, insieme al fratello Antonio e ai suoi discendenti. Vari rami della famiglia si propagarono in diverse regioni d'Italia. Altro ramo. Si ha memoria di questa famiglia fin dal 1320, originaria del Veneto,

----------


## torzio

N145191 is surname, Caquelin in origin from Alsace, France ...............current surname Brennan in UK
and IIRC, 562486 is Daniel Alexander Rossi , Origins from Portoguaro NorthEast Italy

----------


## BMW

> N145191 is surname, Caquelin in origin from Alsace, France ...............current surname Brennan in UK
> 
> and IIRC, 562486 is Daniel Alexander Rossi , Origins from Portoguaro NorthEast Italy


An interesting coincidence....my 2nd great grandfather Walsh married a Brennan...both from Co. Carlow.

----------


## BMW

> N145191 is surname, Caquelin in origin from Alsace, France ...............current surname Brennan in UK
> 
> and IIRC, 562486 is Daniel Alexander Rossi , Origins from Portoguaro NorthEast Italy


Torzio,

Which kit # are you associated with?

----------


## Salento

To Everybody:
Please be more discreet when your posts.

----------


## BMW

> To Everybody:
> Please be more discreet when your posts.


No indiscretion meant.

----------


## torzio

> To Everybody:
> Please be more discreet when your posts.


Explain to myself, privately
Regards

----------


## torzio

> Torzio,
> 
> Which kit # are you associated with?


Ask me privately

----------


## BMW

> Ask me privately



I appreciate it.

----------


## Kelley Caquelin

When the Caquelin's arrived in Pennsylvania, USA in 1735 the man at the port taking names from the passengers spelled their last name Cockley and some were Gockley. During the American Revolution many Cockley actually fought in Ohio and some upon returning from war moved their to live. Waldersbach was established in France around 1639AD. The area was formerly known as Steintal which became part of Ban de la Roche in 1584 AD. I believe this is what causes some confusion of French or German references.

----------


## torzio

> When the Caquelin's arrived in Pennsylvania, USA in 1735 the man at the port taking names from the passengers spelled their last name Cockley and some were Gockley. During the American Revolution many Cockley actually fought in Ohio and some upon returning from war moved their to live. Waldersbach was established in France around 1639AD. The area was formerly known as Steintal which became part of Ban de la Roche in 1584 AD. I believe this is what causes some confusion of French or German references.


Thank you

is your family line also have DNA T ?

----------


## Kelley Caquelin

My Y-DNA is T-CTS1848 and I am new to the DNA results so bare with me.

----------


## torzio

> My Y-DNA is T-CTS1848 and I am new to the DNA results so bare with me.


Thank you , 
So you are also positive for z19945

I am negative for cts1848.....but a person from walloon belgium, surname Bernot is the same as yourself

----------


## Salento

> My Y-DNA is T-CTS1848 and I am new to the DNA results so bare with me.


The Son of a T-Z19945 Man, mutated into a T-CTS1848.

I’m negative for T-CTS1848, but we’re both positive for T-Z19945.

----------


## torzio

> My Y-DNA is T-CTS1848 and I am new to the DNA results so bare with me.


You should contact Gareth from the T project.....he will help you

----------


## torzio

Interesting that in the ftdna T project, ..Gamma-1.1-B pages00113 has z19945 as positive
Most on this list seem eastern europeans


Btw, i am negative for pages00113

----------


## Salento

> Interesting that in the ftdna T project, ..Gamma-1.1-B pages00113 has z19945 as positive
> Most on this list seem eastern europeans
> 
> 
> Btw, i am negative for pages00113


Many are Ashkenazy.

I’m also negative for pages00113.

----------


## torzio

> Many are Ashkenazy.
> 
> I’m also negative for pages00113.


It means that z19945 is the father of pages00113 and not its equal

----------


## torzio

@salento
Messapic expanded with Bell Beakers migrating through the Italian Peninsula, or rather southward through the eastern Adriatic coast. Based on the connections of the Cetina culture with Bell Beakers from the Italian Peninsula, and the potential nature of Messapian as a North-West Indo-European dialect, it seems more likely that Proto-Messapic speakers expanded first southward from the Alps into mainland areas east of the Appennines, and were later replaced and displaced to the south-eastern corner with migrations of Italic peoples. Two individuals from Early/Middle Bronze Age from Veliki Vanik in Split-Dalmatia (ca. 1630–1510 BC) include one of hg. J2b2a-M241 (formed ca. 118000 BC, TMRCA ca 7800 BC), probably corresponding to subclade J2b2a1-L283 (TMRCA ca. 3400 BC), since basal clades are found today in modern populations of southern Italy and Anatolia. These and a later sample of the Late Bronze Age from the Jazinka Cave, near Nečven (ca. 780 BC) show similar ancestry to other available Balkan samples, but with increased Steppe ancestry (ca. 35%), and slightly less WHG (although similar EHG) contribution compared to other Early Bronze Age individuals from the Balkans. Interestingly, this haplogroup, which probably arrived in the Balkans from a westward expansion through Anatolia during the Chalcolithic or Neolithic, is found later in Armenia MLBA in an individual with Steppe ancestry (see §viii.14. Caucasians and Armenians). The finding of haplogroup J-M304 among Mycenaeans (see §viii.12. Greeks and Phand Philistines) further suggests a relative infiltration rather than a massive migration of Yamna male lineages in the southern Balkans, probably due in great part to the higher demographic density of south-eastern Europe (Müller and Diachenko 2019).
In the south-east, Messapic-speaking Iapyginians from Botromagno (ca. 7th–4 th c. BC) show mainly mtDNA subclades H and U, while the later Romans from nearby Vagnari (ca. AD 1st-4th c.) Show other markers

----------


## Salento

@Torzio is that your new Hypothesis / Educated guess? or did you read it somewhere?

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio is that your new Hypothesis / Educated guess? or did you read it somewhere?


From other site.....info for you.....i always said the messapic came from east of the liburnians this states further north......it says the massapic marched down the coast,

----------


## Salento

> From other site.....info for you.....i always said the messapic came from east of the liburnians this states further north......it says the massapic marched down the coast,


They didn't mention the Illyrians,

... with all the implications of being an Illyrians means.

----------


## torzio

> They didn't mention the Illyrians,
> 
> ... with all the implications of being an Illyrians means.


Since tge daunians are the biggest group of messapics, i suggest u look into the daunian peninsula history near foggia

----------


## torzio

> They didn't mention the Illyrians,
> 
> ... with all the implications of being an Illyrians means.


only northern Illyrians tattooed , learning from their northern neighbours, the celts

interesting "messapic" daunians

https://www.academia.edu/984109/The_Tribal_Tattooing_of_Daunian_Women


and

https://www.academia.edu/33341054/Il...s_and_a_helmet

----------


## Salento

> only northern Illyrians tattooed , learning from their northern neighbours, the celts
> interesting "messapic" daunians
> https://www.academia.edu/984109/The_Tribal_Tattooing_of_Daunian_Women
> and
> https://www.academia.edu/33341054/Il...s_and_a_helmet


you should see my Messapic ink ... lol

MTA y-DNA T summary:


Timeline:


Protovillanovian and Illirians (Messapi?) - Bronze Age:


y T Rome Latin Tribe Ardea -Iron Age:

----------


## torzio

> only northern Illyrians tattooed , learning from their northern neighbours, the celts
> 
> interesting "messapic" daunians
> 
> https://www.academia.edu/984109/The_Tribal_Tattooing_of_Daunian_Women
> 
> 
> and
> 
> https://www.academia.edu/33341054/Il...s_and_a_helmet



The Daunians , messapic and others come from Iapodes ...............it is just a spit over the adriatic "pond"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburn...nia_5th_BC.png

----------


## torzio

> ... and that makes two Colonial Era T-Z19945 in CT (Brooks and Curtiss).
> 
> I’m the first newcomer to the US from my family, so there can’t be any recent connection.


Yfull first match with me on same group



I went as far back as I could and the original surname was *Brucke* from Hanover Germany

they are related to the Curtiss T ydna line from Cornwall who originated from
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## Salento

> Yfull first match with me on same group
> 
> 
> 
> I went as far back as I could and the original surname was brucke from Hanover Germany
> 
> they are related to the Curtiss T ydna line from Cornwall who originated from
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


Colonial T-Z19945? (Daniel Curtiss, Connecticut 1652) 

Stratford was founded by Puritans in 1639.

(I can get there in about 1 hour)

... from my side, any relation to him is obviously Ancient, I think.

----------


## torzio

> Colonial T-Z19945? (Daniel Curtiss, Connecticut 1652) 
> 
> Stratford was founded by Puritans in 1639.
> 
> (I can get there in about 1 hour)
> 
> ... from my side, any relation to him is obviously Ancient, I think.


Both Curtiss and Brooks ( born 1640 )are from Stratford Connecticut..................originally cornish UK

----------


## torzio

> Colonial T-Z19945? (Daniel Curtiss, Connecticut 1652) 
> 
> Stratford was founded by Puritans in 1639.
> 
> (I can get there in about 1 hour)
> 
> ... from my side, any relation to him is obviously Ancient, I think.


the current T tree from yfull for our line ........................note YF67318 is Belgium and other BEL is his brother...............and ERS256892 is the trentino sample which has Z19945 , strange as it makes Z19945 older by 600 years ..............I still have no answer from yfull on this matter




age of snp Z19945 is still 3410ybp ( -1950 = *1560BC* ) ....................I foresee due to our differences the split between us occurred between balkan thracian people and up to dacian people


oldest map I could find is from strabo ......................so east of the Triballi noted tribe on the map ...............you could be part of the "golden man" ...................

----------


## torzio

@salento

Unsure how long you have been doing dna research ..............but in the past Ftdna had a side branch called *ysearch,* this would give you matches in their database, myself and Huracan ( a USA person on this site who is in our Z19945 ftdna group ) matched Frush and Curtiss people , usually in our top 5 people.

when ysearch ceased a company called Semargyl tested every ftdna ydna person of minimum y37 and gave all positive results only ( sorry for presentation , lost everything when old pc died in July)

Germany are all Frush members and the Belgium are all Bernot members ...............all have Z19945






I also have a couple of Erzya -Macedonians matches ...........which are steppe people migrated to Macedonia

The * Mordvins*, also _Mordva_, _Mordvinians_, _Mordovians_ (Erzya: эрзят/_erzät_, Moksha: мокшет/_mokšet_, Russian: мордва/mordva), are a people who speak the Mordvinic languages of the Uralic language family and live mainly in the Republic of Mordovia and other parts of the middle Volga River region of Russia.[3] 
The Mordvins are one of the larger indigenous peoples of Russia. They identify themselves as separate ethnic groups:[3] the *Erzya* 

Unsure if you get this match ..........they also state themselves as from Kosovo instead of Macedonia

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> Unsure how long you have been doing dna research ..............but in the past Ftdna had a side branch called *ysearch,* this would give you matches in their database, myself and Huracan ( a USA person on this site who is in our Z19945 ftdna group ) matched Frush and Curtiss people , usually in our top 5 people.
> when ysearch ceased a company called Semargyl tested every ftdna ydna person of minimum y37 and gave all positive results only ( sorry for presentation , lost everything when old pc died in July)
> Germany are all Frush members and the Belgium are all Bernot members ...............all have Z19945
> 
> 
> I also have a couple of Erzya -Macedonians matches ...........which are steppe people migrated to Macedonia
> The * Mordvins*, also _Mordva_, _Mordvinians_, _Mordovians_ (Erzya: эрзят/_erzät_, Moksha: мокшет/_mokšet_, Russian: мордва/mordva), are a people who speak the Mordvinic languages of the Uralic language family and live mainly in the Republic of Mordovia and other parts of the middle Volga River region of Russia.[3] 
> The Mordvins are one of the larger indigenous peoples of Russia. They identify themselves as separate ethnic groups:[3] the *Erzya* 
> Unsure if you get this match ..........they also state themselves as from Kosovo instead of Macedonia


One of my y Hungary matches “_Earliest Known Ancestor_” is a Mordechai, maybe based to Mordivins / Mordva

He also has Cavallo (HORSE in Italian) in his Ancestral surname :)

----------


## torzio

> One of my y Hungary matches “_Earliest Known Ancestor_” is a Mordechai, maybe based to Mordivins / Mordva
> 
> He also has Cavallo (HORSE in Italian) in his Ancestral surname :)


I have a few Cavallin surname from morgano veneto in my family tree

----------


## Salento

> I have a few Cavallin surname from morgano veneto in my family tree


The Messapic town next to mine is called Cavallino 

Messapic Warrior monument of Cavallino:
(I just realized that at the bottom of the statue there’s part of my signature in Latin  :Cool V: )

_But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”_



https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavallino_(Italia)

----------


## torzio

> The Messapic town next to mine is called Cavallino 
> 
> Messapic Warrior monument of Cavallino:
> (I just realized that at the bottom of the statue there’s part of my signature in Latin )
> 
> _But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”_
> 
> 
> 
> https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavallino_(Italia)



La distribuzione geografica del cognome *Cavallin* nella Provincia di Treviso
66 Montebelluna

53 Vedelago

33 Paese

21 Istrana

20 Treviso

12 Morgano


......................................

La distribuzione geografica del cognome *Cavallin* in Italia



 527 Veneto


 68 Lombardia


 36 Piemonte


.................................................. .............

https://www.antenati-italiani.org/it.../6213-cavallin



BTW.....I cancelled all my accounts at Gedmatch after it was sold ...............I was not getting anything out of it anymore

----------


## Salento

> La distribuzione geografica del cognome *Cavallin* nella Provincia di Treviso
> 66 Montebelluna
> 
> 53 Vedelago
> 
> 33 Paese
> 
> 21 Istrana
> 
> ...


... too little too late!

It won’t make any difference, ... we have uploaded our raw-data in so many places, that any expectation of protected privacy is wishful thinking.

I have deleted accounts on a few sites, ... who knows what really happened to my raw-data  :Petrified:

----------


## Duarte

@torzio @Salento

I'm sorry to disappoint you, men, but all these guys already have your data. :Grin:

----------


## Salento

@Duarte ... hope they like what they see!

( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

> the current T tree from yfull for our line ........................note YF67318 is Belgium and other BEL is his brother...............and ERS256892 is the trentino sample which has Z19945 , strange as it makes Z19945 older by 600 years ..............I still have no answer from yfull on this matter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> age of snp Z19945 is still 3410ybp ( -1950 = *1560BC* ) ....................I foresee due to our differences the split between us occurred between balkan thracian people and up to dacian people
> 
> 
> oldest map I could find is from strabo ......................so east of the Triballi noted tribe on the map ...............you could be part of the "golden man" ...................


In ftdna T project, the new sample MK5443 is identical to 116079 ( curtiss ) in all 111 STR's

Curtiss and Brooks ( above ) are related circa 120 years ago 

Curtiss is related to the Frush and Freshour lines

Frush are T-Z19945 , so is Brooks, MK5443 and 100% curtiss line is as well

Frush brothers below ( 536211 is a walloon with Goritizia Italy ancestry )

----------


## torzio

Another match arrived today from the Bon family of Volgago del Montello, Veneto
4 family link so far ....when I get data I will present it

Paternal side ( ydna )

Bon family is part of the venetian "nobility" ie, government

----------


## torzio

> a 23andme match with myself....unsure how accurate 23andme is
> 
> surname - Lehnus
> 
> 3 households in Lombardy and 2 in Friuli ( gorizia town )
> 
> ydna - T-L446
> mtdna - X2b4
> 
> ...




The wife of the above matches me in Ftdna ................but the husband is T-L446 ...which is my line 
how much creedence can we give that one of the sons found his way into my line ?

----------


## torzio

This person is T1a2-L446 norway

Anders Hestenes, born 1490,Hyen,Gloppen,SFJ Norway

I match a " 3rd-4th cousin" with 2 segments and 14cm with a norwegian family called Onstad ....................apparently linked with Hestenes .....................I doubt it as i can follow my paternal line for over 500 years with written records.....but , I will check further

----------


## Huracan

> It means that z19945 is the father of pages00113 and not its equal


I too saw that FTDNA T Group results now have PAGES00113 as CTS8862+ Z19945+. In fact, when I checked my FTDNA results the haplotree now shows PAGES00113 as below CTS8862/CTS1848. Attaching a screenshot of what I found here.

Screen Shot 2020-01-05 at 11.00.41 AM.jpg

As @Salento said, many of this group are Ashkenazi but also includes one Puerto Rican (surname Charriez, which appears to be French in origin). Thought this was interesting.

----------


## torzio

> I too saw that FTDNA T Group results now have PAGES00113 as CTS8862+ Z19945+. In fact, when I checked my FTDNA results the haplotree now shows PAGES00113 as below CTS8862/CTS1848. Attaching a screenshot of what I found here.
> 
> Screen Shot 2020-01-05 at 11.00.41 AM.jpg
> 
> As @Salento said, many of this group are Ashkenazi but also includes one Puerto Rican (surname Charriez, which appears to be French in origin). Thought this was interesting.


I think the change is due to my conversation with the owner of the brooks line .......who states the curtiss line is related to the brooks line ( about 125 years ago ) and the curtiss is related to the Frush/Freshour line 

Kit MK5443 is a "multikit" from the Frush/brooks family and they now sit with us on the ftdna T group ...........they have been changed from Z19945 to next level down T-BY64684

The curtiss and brooks are identical in Y111 str levels and snp level
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Freshour/default.aspx?section=yresults



Btw ....kit N145191 is the Caquelin line ...........see previous posts as the owner has given a small history on the family


also.......below are all in ftdna 0 or 1 step from myself

----------


## torzio

Spoke to Gareth yesterday....................he is splitting up the Z19945 group in ftdna

----------


## torzio

I have always had a very close match with a Altenhofen family in ftdna.....i have now found that it is linked with the Lello family from Roana, Vicenza,Veneto...., so a brorher and sister married into the other family......one of these families is the T1a ydna family

----------


## torzio

a confusing T marker

I am zero distance in ftdna with

*Christian Atherholt (1724 - 1812)*





*Christian* *Atherholt* 
Born *1724* in *Hanover , Germany*
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of *Anna Marie Hedwig* — married [date unknown] [location unknown] 

yet this person is in another link

with Christopher Kile family in Hanover who is also T .................but he is positive for snp P322 , while the Altherholt line plus my line are negative for snp P322


>..........................................

I will chat with a fellow aussie , who is also T1a2 and has snp P322 .................I think his family is either thuringian or silesian ( german )

----------


## torzio

I thought I mentioned the Gei family before..............oh well another contact yesterday .........from N.Gei 78 yo male ......fluent in Italian, Venetian and Austrian 



Gei, Dall'Asta, Elle, Seitz ( a small list from Gei site ) ......................2 of these I have links, Gei in BDM records and Seitz in 3rd cousin 23andme match

In their tree they have two names which are linked to me......Frassetto and Puppato


also the Hintz line in the Gei family tree are from Padua province which is related to one of my paternal line that went to Morgano

All names above come from Belluno and Valle di Cadore areas of the Belluno province of Veneto region

others from southern Belluno province in town of Fonzaso which are linked to me are the 
Toigo and Cemin families

----------


## torzio

another T match for me ..............unsure it is rated 3rd cousin to distant ( what does that mean ?) 

Vincenzo Abliedinger ....whose original surname was Zocher from Enns Austria .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enns_(.......originally from Maniago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniago

this sample cross matches many segments matching with this person, myself my father and sister ( but not my son ?)

----------


## torzio

Another T-Z19945 placed with me in yfull.....no idea yet on who it is
Is it you Salento ?

----------


## Salento

> Another T-Z19945 placed with me in yfull.....no idea yet on who it is
> Is it you Salento ?


I didn’t test with Yfull, so unless they got a hold of my data, I doubt it :) 

... (Yseq)

----------


## torzio

> I didn’t test with Yfull, so unless they got a hold of my data, I doubt it :) 
> 
> ... (Yseq)


Ok
Have some details.....unsure how accurate as i await yfull
Person is polish from 5km south of malbork......old prussia lands.
I remember in the ysearch days ....my main 2 matches was a brooks (who is z19945 ) and a person named Ahman...from baltic sea , east of gdansk

----------


## Salento

> Ok
> Have some details.....unsure how accurate as i await yfull
> Person is polish from 5km south of malbork......old prussia lands.
> 
> I remember in the ysearch days ....my main 2 matches was a brooks (who is z19945 ) and a person named Ahman...from baltic sea , east of gdansk


The Brooks are in Connecticut.

----------


## torzio

> The Brooks are in Connecticut.


Just got confirmation from the pole....it is his sample......he is related on other sires with brooks and curtiss....which must include the freshour and fuser families

----------


## torzio

> The Brooks are in Connecticut.



yes and before this from Cornwall England

and before this from Hanover Germany with original surname of Brucke

I sent you a private message

----------


## Salento

Could it be that Pandemics caused the demise of y T ?

maybe we don’t do too well ... 

That’s freaky ... :) 

... y T ... rare and widespread ...

----------


## torzio

> Could it be that Pandemics caused the demise of y T ?
> 
> maybe we don’t do too well ... 
> 
> That’s freaky ... :) 
> 
> ... y T ... rare and widespread ...


I think it is to do with slow sperm swimmers as per a snp in the M184 group .............so we produce 3 girls to every 5 children , IIRC from an old report ...........I need to go back to my old files to find the snp

I got info from 2 people , maciano and another from italy ( forgot his name , but was from near ascoli with marker T1a1a3 (T-PF7443) )
could be here
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...uctory_success

----------


## Salento

> I think it is to do with slow sperm swimmers as per a snp in the M184 group .............so we produce 3 girls to every 5 children , IIRC from an old report ...........I need to go back to my old files to find the snp
> I got info from 2 people , maciano and another from italy ( forgot his name , but was from near ascoli with marker T1a1a3 (T-PF7443) )
> could be here
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...uctory_success


So you're saying that in the World there are more _“pseudo y T Women”_ :) than y T Men.

----------


## torzio

> So you're saying that in the World there are more _“pseudo y T Women”_ :) than y T Men.


we will never know because all the mtdna would be different

----------


## Salento

> we will never know because all the mtdna would be different


... hope this help: lol

most Salentini are excellent swimmers,

as a matter of fact, in my area, a rite of passage to manhood is swimming to the “Scoglio delle Fontanelle” and back :) 
(been there, done that)

true !!!

----------


## torzio

> ... hope this help: lol
> 
> most Salentini are excellent swimmers,
> 
> as a matter of fact, in my area, a rite of passage to manhood is swimming to the “Scoglio delle Fontanelle” and back :) 
> (been there, done that)
> 
> true !!!


Only people who do that thing where i live are greeks....once a year , late january

----------


## Salento

> Only people who do that thing where i live are greeks....once a year , late january


... makes sense

In Australia, Summer is in the Winter months,

... makes no sense  :Grin: 

I guess is an ancient tradition, ... I wonder where it started at first.

----------


## torzio

> ... makes sense
> 
> In Australia, Summer is in the Winter months,
> 
> ... makes no sense 
> 
> I guess is an ancient tradition, ... I wonder where it started at first.


I will ask at work...there are a couple of greeks who know where this tradition started .............dates not important....its like the greek easter, changes dates yearly depending on how many full moons have passed after a certain date

----------


## torzio

the new yfull match
YF71651
 new
 
T-Z19945*
 10



I have spoken to the person who owns this ID


@salento
this is your map


do you have an update , as sample above is one of these

----------


## Salento

> the new yfull match
> YF71651
>  new
>  
> T-Z19945*
>  10
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no change, everything is still the same, even after the y111 upgrade.

----------


## Salento

I see the new Polacco T-Z19945.

and in the previous map, I have two matches in that area.

----------


## torzio

> no change, everything is still the same, even after the y111 upgrade.
> 
> is the new Z19945 related to, or with the same surname as the other CT samples ?


not related to me.....he only sits with brooks and myself in yfull...........I am equally separated by these 2...........although brooks and the Belgium sample are 1 step from me in ftdna while the pole is no where to be seen

I placed the map because you presented it in the past and I thought he was linked to you


below is my map


I put their older surnames in blue

red = exact
orange = 1 step away

chit chats.....

petrov and Viselli ....zero
benedetto........originally from Pesaro moved to Friuli married a german and moved to apulia
Mozetti .....originally from trentino....moved to eastern friuli/slovenia
Wolff ........chatted with no results, he thinks they where always along the rhine or saarland
bernot......originally from Gorizia....moved to spanish Netherlands to make cannons for the spanish netherlands army


If you want the 4 americans......they are in 3 southern states ............surnames are hill, Jones and Reddick
1 x Reddick is a hessian original surname Radich .....blacksmith
2 x Jones = cornish/welsh origins and ancestor had slaves
3 x Hill = scottish origins .......raised horses for the confederates no slaves

I am missing from map for some reason ....Curtiss, Frush, Brooks, and the irish guy which was here not long ago , I think his surname was Walsh ( most of these are in yfull with me , but only brooks sits exactly with me )

----------


## Salento

according to the FTDNA map, the Polacco is definitely Z19945.

----------


## torzio

> according to the FTDNA map, the Polacco is definitely Z19945.


yes confirmed also in Yfull ..............

----------


## torzio

@ salento

others which are zero away from me in ftdna are surnames
Scales .............South germany ( baden )
Atherholt ..........Cornwall
Di Chiara ...........Molise italy
Brennan ............York England
Gei ............Belluno Italy

do you have any of these ?


...................................
1 step away are ....see below
Hoff ....Bavarian
Fiedler ......north tyrol
Bowen......welsh
The spaniard from cuba who we chat with here
Perry the portuguese
Parker from England
Rossi from Grado friuli
and 3 x hill from darlington south carolina ...........IIRC , not related to Hill family above

----------


## Salento

> @ salento
> 
> others which are zero away from me in ftdna are surnames
> Scales .............South germany ( baden )
> Atherholt ..........Cornwall
> Di Chiara ...........Molise italy
> Brennan ............York England
> Gei ............Belluno Italy
> 
> ...


no, I have Redlich (maybe related to Reddick), Bridge, Safro, Lando, Epstein, Bezerra, ...

----------


## torzio

> no, I have Redlich (maybe related to Reddick), Bridge, Safro, Lando, Epstein, Bezerra, ...


We have everthing different.. . There must be a lot of Z19945 out there

----------


## Salento

> We have everthing different.. . There must be a lot of Z19945 out there


We Tested at different Y sites/level.

maybe you’re misinterpreting my matching level.

It doesn’t say that they’re Z19945.

I get nothing after the 12 Markers, even though I paid for 111.

A message said that people needed to accept some new terms for my new y111 test matches to show up. 
I guess they haven’t done yet.

----------


## torzio

> We Tested at different Y sites/level.
> 
> maybe you’re misinterpreting my matching level.
> 
> It doesn’t say that they’re Z19945.
> 
> I get nothing after the 12 Markers, even though I paid for 111.
> 
> A message said that people needed to accept some new terms for my new y111 test matches to show up. 
> I guess they haven’t done yet.


This is because ftdna seem to want to use branches that do not exist anywhere else

I recently got this message
Kit MK54443 has just joined the T Project with BigY pending,

a ftdna with starting letters MK means multi kit ( more than 1 sample )..................they are doing ( according to the ydna owners who posted me ) all of these T people...Curtiss is there and he is 4 generations split with Brooks
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

all of these T people have Z19945 .............but I am unsure what they will give them as brooks was given a brand new snp lower than Z19945

----------


## torzio

@salento

Do you use in ftdna , their partners site , Geni 
I do and get the following as the only T matches

A LeClaire family from Alsace and the Hoff family below .............the oldest in their detailed family tree


* Anthonius Hoff * 

Gender:
Male

Birth:
 circa 1620 
Heddesdorf, Koblenz, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany

Death:
 March 04, 1677 
Heddesdorf, Koblenz, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany




The autosomal links are less in people but seem to only concentrate only on closer "cousins" ............I have as a confirmed link a Lamia Poe ( seems like old Austrian Galicia area ) .....her line married one of my paternal relatives that moved to Morgano Veneto circa 1850

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> Do you use in ftdna , their partners site , Geni 
> I do and get the following as the only T matches
> 
> A LeClaire family from Alsace and the Hoff family below .............the oldest in their detailed family tree
> 
> 
> * Anthonius Hoff * 
> ...


No, but I remember that one of my 23andme matches was a T-M70 (N. Frassanito), ... 

maybe a Pugliese, his autosomal was similar to mine, and there’s a small Town in Salento with the same name.

It’s highly probable that T-M70 is not his final.

----------


## torzio

> No, but I remember that one of my 23andme matches was a T-M70 (N. Frassanito), ... 
> 
> maybe a Pugliese, his autosomal was similar to mine, and there’s a small Town in Salento with the same name.
> 
> It’s highly probable that T-M70 is not his final.


Maybe you should try Geni at bottom of the ftdna page.....

----------


## torzio

> not related to me.....he only sits with brooks and myself in yfull...........I am equally separated by these 2...........although brooks and the Belgium sample are 1 step from me in ftdna while the pole is no where to be seen
> 
> I placed the map because you presented it in the past and I thought he was linked to you
> 
> 
> below is my map
> 
> 
> I put their older surnames in blue
> ...


more info on wolff line ..................came via Storo town in trentino
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storo
from Giovani Balduzzi and wife Maria Montovani ...................he is T ydna ( 1 step from me )..............surprising is I have a H95a mtdna close match with a montovani woman ..............I will send my montovani friend a message to check the mtdna side

----------


## torzio

T-Z19945 Brooks ..............fairfield line in attachment below

https://www.tributaries.info/ui62.htm

related to Curtis and frush families

----------


## torzio

> No, but I remember that one of my 23andme matches was a T-M70 (N. Frassanito), ... 
> 
> maybe a Pugliese, his autosomal was similar to mine, and there’s a small Town in Salento with the same name.
> 
> It’s highly probable that T-M70 is not his final.


you are right, he is

Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677 * T-CTS8862* ...............so far

----------


## torzio

Jack jones ..........zero step from myself .............T-CTS933 from surname Eberhardt in South Carolina circa 1700 ...............originally from Wuetenberg Germany

another is
surname Bowen ...........1 step from myself ........T-CTS8862 from surname Mancini from circa 1700 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescosolido

----------


## torzio

> I thought I mentioned the Gei family before..............oh well another contact yesterday .........from N.Gei 78 yo male ......fluent in Italian, Venetian and Austrian 
> 
> 
> 
> Gei, Dall'Asta, Elle, Seitz ( a small list from Gei site ) ......................2 of these I have links, Gei in BDM records and Seitz in 3rd cousin 23andme match
> 
> In their tree they have two names which are linked to me......Frassetto and Puppato
> 
> 
> ...


As per seitz line above comes David Alexander Hill circa 1850 (North Carolina, Tennessee ) , zero step from myself, also attached to the same Seitz line .............T-CTS933

----------


## torzio

> I do not match Patrick on FTDNA. I'd like to contact him but I guess there would be no other way besides plastering e-mail addresses all over the place.
> Any suggestions?



So, are you the Walsh associated with the Teaford family .....who originally had surname Teifer from old "austrian " town of _Wassersuppen , now in Czech lands named https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemanice_

----------


## torzio

@ Salento

A new person in our new group in the T ftdna project

Henry Benningfield T-CTS8489

Also was in Virginia from circa 1700

origin suffolk England 
Theopolis Benningfield: Arrival: Date unknown when he landed in America.
list of 1704 in Charles City Co., Va. 
The family originates from the Manor of Bedingfield in Suffolk, England.

----------


## Salento

> @ Salento
> A new person in our new group in the T ftdna project
> Henry Benningfield T-CTS8489
> Also was in Virginia from circa 1700
> origin suffolk England 
> Theopolis Benningfield: Arrival: Date unknown when he landed in America.
> list of 1704 in Charles City Co., Va. 
> The family originates from the Manor of Bedingfield in Suffolk, England.


Virginia is the State of the 1st Colony (1607 - Jamestown) and Jefferson,

It seems that the American Colonists were strong on y T ... lol

The number of y T1a... Colonists continues to grow,

People were surprised when Thomas Jefferson was found to be y T, but ... things change :)

----------


## torzio

> Virginia is the State of the 1st Colony (1607 - Jamestown) and Jefferson,
> 
> It seems that the American Colonists were strong on y T ... lol
> 
> The number of y T1a... Colonists continues to grow,
> 
> People were surprised when Thomas Jefferson was found to be y T, but ... things change :)


Thanks
Btw, can u check the ftdna T project under the group for pages00113.....it stares all are Z19945+
It would seem pages00113 suts also ubder Z19945, finally

----------


## Salento

> Thanks
> Btw, can u check the ftdna T project under the group for pages00113.....it stares all are Z19945+
> It would seem pages00113 suts also ubder Z19945, finally


I see it.

Does Yfull support T PAGES00113 ???

I can’t find it.

----------


## torzio

> I see it.
> 
> Does Yfull support T PAGES00113 ???
> 
> I can’t find it.


Yfull does not have it...but in another thread it states that 75% of this marker is yews from eastern europe

----------


## Salento

> Yfull does not have it...but in another thread it states that 75% of this marker is yews from eastern europe


They are 2 steps below us,

I guess their mutation must have happened after the biblical Exodus, (if true :)

----------


## torzio

> They are 2 steps below us,
> 
> I guess their mutation must have happened after the biblical Exodus, (if true :)


Yfull does have Pages00113

my reads for it

Reads 108
4 passes ............3 negative and 1 positive 
rated unreliable

PAGES00113 / PAGE113
G
 to
A




ChrY position (Hg19):
2713589 (+strand) *◄*

ChrY position (Hg38):
2845548 (+strand) 


they gave me a negative

----------


## Salento

I’m negative for Pages00113 too.

*Ancestral DNA Marker Pedigree*

..._ from Homo Erectus to Pages00113
_
Tree Level
Marker / Branch Name
Alternative Names
Notes

1
HomoErectus
hg38:21292569-T-G
Human and Denisovan diverge from ancestral allele T found in chimpanzees at this position. hg38 Ref is G.

2
YAdam
hg38:2844421-A-G
Ancestral allele in chimpanzee is A implying this is probably a human-defining SNP for homo sapiens. hg38 Ref is G.

3
L1085
2922685-T-C
Defining mutation for near-root haplogroup A0-T (aka A0'1'2'3'4). That is to say father of ALL modern Y-DNA lineages except A00. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

4
P305
2842113-A-G rs72625368
Defining mutation for haplogroup ISOGG branch A1. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

5
P108
rs761539052
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch A1b at ISOGG. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral. Also enumerated as hg38:13314368-C-T.

6
L413
PF1409 V31 rs192939307
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch BT at ISOGG. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

7
M168
PF1416 rs2032595
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch CT. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

8
P143
PF2587 rs4141886
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch CF. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

9
M89
PF2746 rs2032652
Defining mutation for haplogroup F. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

10
F1329
M3658 PF2622 YSC0001299 rs9786482
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch above GHIJK (sic). hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

11
M578
F929 S6397 PF3494 S6378 rs73614810
Mutation at haplogroup branch HIJK. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

12
M523
L15 PF3492 S137 Z4413 rs9786139
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch IJK. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

13
M9
PF5506 rs3900
Defining mutation for haplogroup K. Predecessor of haplogroups T, P, and NO. Arose about 45,000 bce. hg38 has incorrect Ref versus ancestral allele.

14
L298
P326 rs372687543
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch LT (aka K1) for ISOGG and FTDNA. See also CTS1381 which YFull uses on this branch.

15
M184
Page34 PAGES00034 rs20320
Defining mutation for haplogroup T (aka K1b) at ISOGG. Arose about 40,000 bce. Britain's DNA labeled this branch: Babylon.

16
L490
rs2040607


17
M70
Page46 PAGES00046 PF5662 rs2032672


18
Z19859
rs957337864


19
L131
rs2215828


20
L446
rs765328997


21
Y6055
FGC22988 Z19905


22
CTS933
rs774625164


23
CTS10803
rs779515027


24
Z19939



25
CTS11984
rs766932353


26
CTS3767
rs755157880
YFull shows parent as CTS933 as of 4/11/2019.

27
CTS8489
rs746154125


28
CTS8862
rs773515931


29
Z19945
rs755456818
equiv to CTS8489

30
FT62750



31
Page113
T-Page113 PAGES00113 rs72625369




https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...p?RecordID=274

----------


## Salento

*Ancestral DNA Marker Pedigree*

 :Thinking:  ... a little more to the LEFT, and I could have turned into a Chimpanzee  :Grin: 

... _Home Erectus to T-Z19945 (+ FT62750 - BY64684)_
_
Tree Level
Marker / Branch Name
Alternative Names
Notes

1
HomoErectus
hg38:21292569-T-G
Human and Denisovan diverge from ancestral allele T found in chimpanzees at this position. hg38 Ref is G.

2
YAdam
hg38:2844421-A-G
Ancestral allele in chimpanzee is A implying this is probably a human-defining SNP for homo sapiens. hg38 Ref is G.

3
L1085
2922685-T-C
Defining mutation for near-root haplogroup A0-T (aka A0'1'2'3'4). That is to say father of ALL modern Y-DNA lineages except A00. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

4
P305
2842113-A-G rs72625368
Defining mutation for haplogroup ISOGG branch A1. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

5
P108
rs761539052
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch A1b at ISOGG. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral. Also enumerated as hg38:13314368-C-T.

6
L413
PF1409 V31 rs192939307
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch BT at ISOGG. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

7
M168
PF1416 rs2032595
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch CT. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

8
P143
PF2587 rs4141886
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch CF. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

9
M89
PF2746 rs2032652
Defining mutation for haplogroup F. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

10
F1329
M3658 PF2622 YSC0001299 rs9786482
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch above GHIJK (sic). hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

11
M578
F929 S6397 PF3494 S6378 rs73614810
Mutation at haplogroup branch HIJK. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

12
M523
L15 PF3492 S137 Z4413 rs9786139
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch IJK. hg38 Ref does not match ancestral allele value.

13
M9
PF5506 rs3900
Defining mutation for haplogroup K. Predecessor of haplogroups T, P, and NO. Arose about 45,000 bce. hg38 has incorrect Ref versus ancestral allele.

14
L298
P326 rs372687543
Defining mutation for haplogroup branch LT (aka K1) for ISOGG and FTDNA. See also CTS1381 which YFull uses on this branch.

15
M184
Page34 PAGES00034 rs20320
Defining mutation for haplogroup T (aka K1b) at ISOGG. Arose about 40,000 bce. Britain's DNA labeled this branch: Babylon.

16
L490
rs2040607


17
M70
Page46 PAGES00046 PF5662 rs2032672


18
Z19859
rs957337864


19
L131
rs2215828


20
L446
rs765328997


21
Y6055
FGC22988 Z19905


22
CTS933
rs774625164


23
CTS10803
rs779515027


24
Z19939



25
CTS11984
rs766932353


26
CTS3767
rs755157880
YFull shows parent as CTS933 as of 4/11/2019.

27
CTS8489
rs746154125


28
CTS8862
rs773515931


29
Z19945
rs755456818
equiv to CTS8489

30
FT62750



31
BY64684
T-BY64684



https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...me=Y&snp2=&DB=

_

----------


## torzio

> *Ancestral DNA Marker Pedigree*
> 
>  ... a little more to the LEFT, and I could have turned into a Chimpanzee 
> 
> ... _Home Erectus to T-Z19945 (+ FT62750 - BY64684)_
> _
> Tree Level
> Marker / Branch Name
> Alternative Names
> ...


I am 100% negative for FT62750 and BY64684..................zero out of 5 stars


this is the only thing I have after Z19945
*BY143483 level T-Z19945*.....terminal 


*and with the polish person we only share
CTS10538, CTS9984, CTS8862, Z19944, Z19953, BY143483, Z19945, Z19946, PH3117, Y26649, CTS8489, Z19949, Z19951


and yfull changed my CTS8862 to *CTS9984* as my main even though it is equivalent to CTS8862..................this is the snp before Z19945

----------


## torzio

I believe now, that *Z19945* is a main central distribution and it existed between modern moldova/upper romania and as far west as the *Upper rhine river/upper danube river lands

*cts1848 seems to be only around lower rhine area and west of this and this snp is not the main split snp of our line

Z19945 did not go into western europe from the sea ............so we can count southern anatolia out of any estimation

----------


## Salento

FT62750 and BY64684 are relatively new,

no option available for single snp test at FTDNA, and I can’t find them at Yseq.

----------


## bigsnake49

> I will ask at work...there are a couple of greeks who know where this tradition started .............dates not important....its like the greek easter, changes dates yearly depending on how many full moons have passed after a certain date


Generally, the date for Easter is set on the first full moon after both the Spring Equinox and Passover.

----------


## Salento

> Generally, the date for Easter is set on the first full moon after both the Spring Equinox and Passover.


Traditionally (at least in Salento), the day after Easter (Pasquetta) is considered the 1st day of the year when the brave or the crazy :) can go swimming, and to slowly start going to the beach (weather permitting).

Salento = Sole, Mare, e Vento
(the Sun, the Sea, and the Wind)

----------


## bigsnake49

> Traditionally (at least in Salento), the day after Easter (Pasquetta) is considered the 1st day of the year when the brave or the crazy :) can go swimming, and to slowly start going to the beach (weather permitting).
> 
> Salento = Sole, Mare, e Vento
> (the Sun, the Sea, and the Wind)


It can get pretty windy in the Ionian and Adriatic Sea.

----------


## torzio

> ¡Ay, caramba!
> 
> These are two different Patrick Walsh's.
> 
> My 2nd great grandfather Patrick Walsh is the one listed on the ftdna t project in the z19945 group.


I have the following as my top matches in Ftdna after family members ................are you saying you are part of this patrick Walsh or not part





First 3 are one family on my mothers side
Lello is paternal from trentino
Miotto from veneto
you or not ????????????
Neuman from trentino
poe from austria
Tax .............new and dutch .......no idea or contact
Hintz from morgan veneto married into a paternal cousin side

Can we clear this up as I am still unsure ................I also have a patrick Walsh in Yfull near my sample

----------


## torzio

Yfull has just given me a new branch under Z19945 
with a Pole and an ancient trentino/South Tyrol sample
Because there are 3 different non family samples it has been accepted so it is
T - BY143483

----------


## torzio

I knew from last year that Z19945 would be a central snp area, where many branches would split off from...............I expect to see more splits/branches from z19945 going forward

----------


## Huracan

@Torzio, how do you know Bernot was originally from Gorizia? I thought they were Belgians in the Spanish Netherlands that then went back to Spain with the army after the War of the Spanish Succession...

@Salento, I saw you had a Bezerra match on FTDNA - does it say where they are from?

To be complete, here are my Y matches on FTDNA:
12 markers
0 Rodrigues Pereira (might just be Pereira): Horta, Faial, Azores (T-M70)
-1 Curtiss: Stratford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
-1 Brooks: Startford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
-1 Costa: Ilha do Pico, Azores (T-M70)
-1 Jones (T-M70)
-1 Curtiss (related to above Curtiss)
-1 Jones: Charleston, SC (T-M70)
-1 Pret: Tres, Trentino (T-Z19945)
25 markers
-1 Rodrigues Pereira (T-M70)
-2 Costa (T-M70)
-2 Israel (T-M70)
-2 Frush (3) and Froshour (all T-M70)
-2 Lemas: Azores (T-M70)
37 markers
-4 Rodrigues Pereira (T-M70)

The closest individuals to me on the FTDNA T group are Rodrigues Pereira and the related (or multiple-tested) Bernot.

----------


## Salento

@Huracan I don’t have a Bezerra in my matches anymore, it’s gone.

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio, how do you know Bernot was originally from Gorizia? I thought they were Belgians in the Spanish Netherlands that then went back to Spain with the army after the War of the Spanish Succession...
> @Salento, I saw you had a Bezerra match on FTDNA - does it say where they are from?
> To be complete, here are my Y matches on FTDNA:
> 12 markers
> 0 Rodrigues Pereira (might just be Pereira): Horta, Faial, Azores (T-M70)
> -1 Curtiss: Stratford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
> -1 Brooks: Startford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
> -1 Costa: Ilha do Pico, Azores (T-M70)
> -1 Jones (T-M70)
> ...


We shared letters....there are 3 brothers who tested.....anyway.....he said gorizia, they went to spanish netherlands, later where cannon makers for tge spanush netherlands army....and when they lost, some members moved to coastal north spain.......why
Frush, freshour, curtiss and brooks are all related. ......i have contact with the woman who runs all of them
Periera name is parry now, from iirc azorres originally.
I also have 2 x jones matches zero step...
I am surprised you have no 3 x hill matches, or mozetti.....
What about italian matches,,,,,,,benedetto and rossi from coastal adriatic sea

----------


## torzio

"Froschauer: A notable surname 1494 Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany
Anglicized: Freshour, Frushour, Frush, Froshour
We have learned that Froschauer originated as a toponymic name, one that reflects a connection between the initial bearer and a place of habitation.Research indicates that there were eight settlements called "Froschau: in Bavaria Germany."

----------


## torzio

Place my DNA in geneanet 6 weeks ago ( a french site which has a lot of italians ) and just received 

3 x ydna matches ...................this is something new from geneanet .............I from my family have only placed my dna in this site

surname - *Bedin* from Pederobba in Veneto ..................says 3rd cousin

surname - *Gris* from Belluno In Veneto ................says 4th cousin

surname - *Tighe* also written as Tighesso from Lueg Austria ...................surname Tighe looks irish to me , town in Austria , but near Belluno in Italy ,........but its 5th cousin , so I will ignore it

----------


## torzio

My ftdna site ydna and BigY , has been changed from T-Z19945 to * T-BY143483* ......a branch of Z19945

other branches under Z19945 are
CTS1848
and
FT62750

----------


## Huracan

> We shared letters....there are 3 brothers who tested.....anyway.....he said gorizia, they went to spanish netherlands, later where cannon makers for tge spanush netherlands army....and when they lost, some members moved to coastal north spain.......why
> Frush, freshour, curtiss and brooks are all related. ......i have contact with the woman who runs all of them
> Periera name is parry now, from iirc azorres originally.
> I also have 2 x jones matches zero step...
> I am surprised you have no 3 x hill matches, or mozetti.....
> What about italian matches,,,,,,,benedetto and rossi from coastal adriatic sea


Do you know the original surname of these Bernot individuals whose line is from Gorizia?

----------


## torzio

> Do you know the original surname of these Bernot individuals whose line is from Gorizia?


I will check later....at home.........but chevk page 2 or 3 of this post
They are from hainaut belgium and lorraine france.....county of vermandois

----------


## Salento

> My ftdna site ydna and BigY , has been changed from T-Z19945 to * T-BY143483* ......a branch of Z19945
> 
> other branches under Z19945 are
> CTS1848
> and
> FT62750


... ordered the B, not option to get the F, I’m negative for the C :)

----------


## torzio

> ... ordered the B, not option to get the F, I’m negative for the C :)


cryptic note.......no idea what you are saying

Gareth asked Ftdna to add BY143483 to the ftdna and BigY tree a week ago..............so I sit with a Pomeranian Pole and an ancient sardinian found in trentino italy

----------


## torzio

my new yreport ...............the negatives ( once in red ) are no longer shown in the report

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio, how do you know Bernot was originally from Gorizia? I thought they were Belgians in the Spanish Netherlands that then went back to Spain with the army after the War of the Spanish Succession...
> 
> @Salento, I saw you had a Bezerra match on FTDNA - does it say where they are from?
> 
> To be complete, here are my Y matches on FTDNA:
> 12 markers
> 0 Rodrigues Pereira (might just be Pereira): Horta, Faial, Azores (T-M70)
> -1 Curtiss: Stratford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
> -1 Brooks: Startford, Connecticut, U.S. (T-BY64684)
> ...



note that Brooks ( ancient surname was Brucke from Hanover germany ) and Curtiss are related back via 4 generations back and both are related the the frush and Froshour , German family line

I am split further apart from yourself with a pomerian Pole and an ancient Sardo/Trentino sample ........but the pole and I share links with the Brooks, Curtiss, Frush and Froshour family tree
The pole closer to them than myself by 2 extra snp's

----------


## Huracan

> note that Brooks ( ancient surname was Brucke from Hanover germany ) and Curtiss are related back via 4 generations back and both are related the the frush and Froshour , German family line
> 
> I am split further apart from yourself with a pomerian Pole and an ancient Sardo/Trentino sample ........but the pole and I share links with the Brooks, Curtiss, Frush and Froshour family tree
> The pole closer to them than myself by 2 extra snp's


What is this ancient Sardo/Trentino sample you speak of? Is it the Cagliari sample on Yfull #ERS256892?

----------


## Salento

> My ftdna site ydna and BigY , has been changed from T-Z19945 to * T-BY143483* ......a branch of Z19945
> 
> other branches under Z19945 are
> CTS1848
> and
> FT62750





> ... ordered the B, not option to get the F, I’m negative for the C :)



If you look at the initials of the SNPs you posted and compare them to the single letters I posted You'll understand, Maybe!

----------


## torzio

> What is this ancient Sardo/Trentino sample you speak of? Is it the Cagliari sample on Yfull #ERS256892?



yes 

he is as per Yfull


ERS256892


T-BY143483

----------


## torzio

> If you look at the initials of the SNPs you posted and compare them to the single letters I posted You'll understand, Maybe!


ok

I got the B for free

i am negative for the C and the F

----------


## torzio

> Yfull has just given me a new branch under Z19945 
> with a Pole and an ancient trentino/South Tyrol sample
> Because there are 3 different non family samples it has been accepted so it is
> T - BY143483


id...YF71651 = N184890 in ftdna

----------


## torzio

all the branches breaking off from snp Z19945


Since FT62750 has the most private snp with it......I see in time further splits from it ....................but for mine , maybe only one or two split offs

----------


## Huracan

> yes 
> 
> he is as per Yfull
> 
> 
> ERS256892
> 
> 
> T-BY143483


I saw elsewhere on the forum that this sample was from the "Sardinia Study", does anyone know the paper or dataset the sample was reported?

----------


## torzio

> I saw elsewhere on the forum that this sample was from the "Sardinia Study", does anyone know the paper or dataset the sample was reported?


Yes he is a sardinian

here is his positive snp that I could find
CTS10538, CTS9984, BY143483, CTS8862, Z1995, Z19944, Z19945, Z19946, Y26649, Z6596/FGC1069, M8990/S3846, M11810, PF6526, Y111, CTS8489, Z19949, Z19951, FGC28749, M8325, Z4924


he matches a Pole from Pomerania or Lublin
the pole snp
CTS10538, CTS9984, BY143483, CTS8862, Z19944, Z19953, Z19945, Z19946, Y26649, Z6596/FGC1069, M8990/S3846, M11810, PF6526, Y111, CTS8489, Z19949, Z19951, FGC28749, M8325, Z4924

both match myself ............


i cannot recall if it was this

Contu D, Morelli L, Santoni F, Foster JW, Francalacci P, Cucca F (2008). "Y-chromosome based evidence for pre-neolithic origin of the genetically homogeneous but diverse Sardinian population: inference for association scans". _PLOS ONE_. 

or


Francalacci P, Morelli L, Angius A, Berutti R, Reinier F, Atzeni R, Pilu R, Busonero F, Maschio A, Zara I, Sanna D, Useli A, Urru MF, Marcelli M, Cusano R, Oppo M, Zoledziewska M, Pitzalis M, Deidda F, Porcu E, Poddie F, Kang HM, Lyons R, Tarrier B, Gresham JB, Li B, Tofanelli S, Alonso S, Dei M, Lai S, Mulas A, Whalen MB, Uzzau S, Jones C, Schlessinger D, Abecasis GR, Sanna S, Sidore C, Cucca F (2013). "Low-pass DNA sequencing of 1200 Sardinians reconstructs European Y-chromosome phylogeny".


.................................................. .................................................

on another note
The pole matches closer to Brooks than myself in Yfull.......I am second, then Walloon person ( who states he is a NE Italian in the 15th century ), then the Sardo 

The Pole stated to me that, his ancestors where in Germany and/or Netherlands in the 16th century ..................we have spoken on many occasions ............................we might match another in the future from either germany of Tchekia (Poland ) or did he say Czech

----------


## Salento

> My ftdna site ydna and BigY , has been changed from T-Z19945 to * T-BY143483* ......a branch of Z19945
> 
> other branches under Z19945 are
> CTS1848
> and
> FT62750


... Results: 

*BY143483 G+* (Positive) !!!
_Position 20996816

_If the hierarchy is correct, I should be negative for FT62750 by default,

That makes BY143483 my new Final !!!

----------


## torzio

> ... Results: 
> 
> *BY143483 G+* (Positive) !!!
> _Position 20996816
> 
> _If the hierarchy is correct, I should be negative for FT62750 by default,
> 
> That makes BY143483 my new Final !!!


Let Gareth know ...............he will then divide the ftdna branch we are in

----------


## Salento

> Let Gareth know ...............he will then divide the ftdna branch we are in


... done ... :)

----------


## torzio

> ... done ... :)


Gareth has updated the ftdna T project

our line looks more and more central Europe ......Upper Rhine area or Upper Danube area ..............my guess .............knowing the Pole's ancestors ( who are not Poles ) as well as all other branches that shoot off Z19945

----------


## Salento

> Gareth has updated the ftdna T project
> 
> our line looks more and more central Europe ......Upper Rhine area or Upper Danube area ..............my guess .............knowing the Pole's ancestors ( who are not Poles ) as well as all other branches that shoot off Z19945


We’ve been moved, we have our own spot  :Satisfied:

----------


## torzio

> We’ve been moved, we have our own spot


I have contacted Alperjager about the tree ...............I think he works with Gareth

----------


## Huracan

@Salento to clarify, your paternal line was from where again? Lecce, Italy?

----------


## Salento

> @Salento to clarify, your paternal line was from where again? Lecce, Italy?


 Yes :) on a 5 km radius ... many generations, and we’re not aware of any other place.

----------


## Huracan

I see another sample in your FTDNA T Project group for BY143483: N184890. No info listed for that kit. Could that be the Polish sample from Full?

----------


## torzio

> I see another sample in your FTDNA T Project group for BY143483: N184890. No info listed for that kit. Could that be the Polish sample from Full?


yes...see post 729

we chat in messenger and he states his ancestors are german ...........he thinks thuringia 

he lives in pomerania or what is in yfull

https://www.britannica.com/place/Zachodniopomorskie


below is the older name of the province

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczecin



Early history states
Tacitus located the East Germanic tribe of the Rugians in the area around Szczecin, as did modern historians. The Rugians left during the Great Migrations in the 5th century AD. 

IIRC ...........the Rugians kicked the Lombards out of Austria/Vienna area ............the Lombards then went to Italy......I need to revisit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugii

----------


## torzio

@salento

There you go Rugians linked to Ostrogoths , who went to Italy .............

Your a sick puppy with that facemask on your avatar , ROFL

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> There you go Rugians linked to Ostrogoths , who went to Italy .............
> 
> Your a sick puppy with that facemask on your avatar , ROFL


It’s possible, but don’t mind me asking :) how do you come up with that conclusion.

... the avatar is a reflection ... wearing a mask outside is now a requirement, we have many Covid-19 dead in my Town. and in my State in general, ...

----------


## torzio

> It’s possible, but don’t mind me asking :) how do you come up with that conclusion.
> 
> ... the avatar is a reflection ... wearing a mask outside is now a requirement, we have many Covid-19 dead in my Town. and in my State in general, ...



Its is my conclusion ..............i have to revisit the net for the friulian town of Cormons, a place where retired romans settled who where of , ......either Heruli or Rugii stock enlisted by the Empire to serve as Foderati, ...i cannot remember exactly

----------


## Salento

@Torzio ... Do you know the letters denomination for BY143483 ?

... I mean, ... the T1a2..... thing :) lol

----------


## torzio

> Do you know the letters denomination for BY143483 ?
> 
> ... I mean, ... the T1a2..... thing :) lol


BY means it came from ftdna BigY

----------


## Salento

> BY means it came from ftdna BigY


and the alternative name with the T1a2........ ?

----------


## torzio

> and the alternative name with the T1a2........ ?


Not sure what you are getting at.......both i do not believe on any modern national term pre medieval period

----------


## Salento

> Not sure what you are getting at.......both i do not believe on any modern national term pre medieval period


Not sure you understood at all, .... I was asking about the alternative code-name of the SNP BY143483

... for example:

_ CTS8489 = T1a2a1a1a
__ Z19945 = T1a2a1a1a2
___ BY143483 = T1a2????

----------


## torzio

> Not sure you understood at all, .... I was asking about the alternative code-name of the SNP BY143483
> 
> ... for example:
> 
> _ CTS8489 = T1a2a1a1a
> __ Z19945 = T1a2a1a1a2
> ___ BY143483 = T1a2????



Different companies use different markers, like

Isogg for us ( only to 2018 ) T1a2b1a1b


ftdna for our branch has T1a2a1a1a2b

so because it is a Ftdna find which yfull agrees , then it is the ftdna one

I never really cared after the first 4 digits

----------


## Salento

> Different companies use different markers, like
> 
> Isogg for us ( only to 2018 ) T1a2b1a1b
> 
> ftdna for our branch has T1a2a1a1a2b
> 
> so because it is a Ftdna find which yfull agrees , then it is the ftdna one
> 
> I never really cared after the first 4 digits


Thank you, :) perfect !!!

It took a couple of tries to get the right answer, but we finally understand each other LOL

----------


## torzio

> Thank you, :) perfect !!!
> 
> It took a couple of tries to get the right answer, but we finally understand each other LOL


must be an Adriatic thingy ....north to south............or is it a USA .v. Australia failure to communicate

Now to check on this Pomeranian/Thuringian same branch person to us ..........a quick look suggest he is closer to you than I ......I will recheck the STR after

regards

----------


## Salento

*T-Z19945*
*Z19945+*

┣━*T-BY143483*
*BY143483+*

┗━*T-CTS1848*
*CTS1848/A15857-*

----------


## Salento

... as reference, general Geno 2.0

2017 Genographic Project y Haplogroup vs 2020 Yseq final:

----------


## torzio

> ... as reference, general Geno 2.0
> 
> 2017 Genographic Project y Haplogroup vs 2020 Yseq final:


are you saying Geno knew your ydna marker in 2017 ?

I have 
1st Tuscan ................54%
2nd Germanic............46%

----------


## Salento

@Torzio 

no, I’m not saying that :) 

I was pointing out the marker NatGeo gave me 3 years ago, versus what I ended up being.

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> 
> no, I’m not saying that :) 
> 
> I was pointing out the marker NatGeo gave me 3 years ago, versus what I ended up being.


Ok

They gave me the same Ydna as yourself 
and
my correct mtdna of H95a

----------


## torzio

Finally found my link with the Steiner family of trentino ................via myHeritage, over a year of searching.........matches myself, father and sons, so I assume it is a ydna match, but will write to them.

All from town called Barbian , Trentino-alto-adage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbian

The Leiss spelling below, ....in Italy is spelt Less and i have some of these............the one I was looking for > Steiner, the one with 4 segments matching

.................
*Maria Leiss*

Gerhard Hafner's direct ancestor (6 generations)

Birth: Feb 17 1740



*Mathias Leiss*

Gerhard Hafner's direct ancestor (7 generations)

Birth: 1714


above looks like father and daughter



.....................................
*Michael Steiner*

Gerhard Hafner's direct ancestor (6 generations)

Birth: 1755


*Maria Gafriller*

Gerhard Hafner's direct ancestor (6 generations)

Birth: 1759

above looks like husband and wife

----------


## torzio

Owner of the above post also has surname Larcher

I have that surname in Val di Non Trentino site

http://valdinonusa.com/index.php

----------


## torzio

Yfull new date range for T-BY143483

note that yfull does not use the standard year 1950 as other do............it seems to use year 2000

so, T-Z19945 is TMRCA 3300

T-BY143483 is TMRCA 3000 ...............so circa 1000BC ..............drill down and they have anywhere between 950Bc to 1200BC is when it formed .............it's initial date of 450BC is an error

----------


## Kelley Caquelin

Hello, I am T-CTS1848, FTDNA 917435. I am wondering if I should get the y-700 and I currently have the 111. Any suggestions?

M184, TL490, M70, Z19859, L131, L446, Y6055, CTS99, CTS10803, Z19939, Z19939, CTS11984, CTS8489, CTS8862, Z19945, CTS1848 is my Tree but I need to purchase the M184 SNP pack or the y-700?

----------


## torzio

> Hello, I am T-CTS1848, FTDNA 917435. I am wondering if I should get the y-700 and I currently have the 111. Any suggestions?
> 
> M184, TL490, M70, Z19859, L131, L446, Y6055, CTS99, CTS10803, Z19939, Z19939, CTS11984, CTS8489, CTS8862, Z19945, CTS1848 is my Tree but I need to purchase the M184 SNP pack or the y-700?




you belong to T group .............T1a2

you will fit in the second group of the ftdna T project of the T1a2 group, the one with CTS1848 

Write to Gareth [email protected]
He runs the ftdna T project and will place you once you join the project ......................he can guide you ...............but I doubt you need to do much as snp CTS1848 is very much it for your line

In regards to us
we both have Z19945 .............your line split to CTS1848 and mine to BY143483

The latest I have seen is that Z19945 formed around the modern borders of Austrian and Czech lands in the late Bronze age

----------


## torzio

> you belong to T group .............T1a2
> 
> you will fit in the second group of the ftdna T project of the T1a2 group, the one with CTS1848 
> 
> Write to Gareth [email protected]
> He runs the ftdna T project and will place you once you join the project ......................he can guide you ...............but I doubt you need to do much as snp CTS1848 is very much it for your line
> 
> In regards to us
> we both have Z19945 .............your line split to CTS1848 and mine to BY143483
> ...


@Kelley

is this below , your ancestor?

*Jacob Gockley, 1799 - 1862*

Jacob Gockley was born on June 29 1799, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA, to Sebastian Caquelin Gacklie and Anna Maria Caquelin Gacklie (born Hoffman).
Sebastian was born on March 26 1761, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA.

and /or

all of these in the link ..............basically in Alsace ( a french/german ) area

https://www.mytrees.com/names/Event/Year/1/CAQUELIN

----------


## Kelley Caquelin

Torzio, I am from the Cockley line thru Sebastian Caquelin who arrived from Waldersbach, Alsace in 1753 at PA. I have a history of the Gockley's someone wrote and it was a very interesting read. I am assuming you have it.

----------


## torzio

> Torzio, I am from the Cockley line thru Sebastian Caquelin who arrived from Waldersbach, Alsace in 1753 at PA. I have a history of the Gockley's someone wrote and it was a very interesting read. I am assuming you have it.


thanks

I see you have joined the ftdna T project

Who are some of the surnames that appear in Family-Finder matches

I found your Sebastian Caquelin ................actually both Sebastians, father and son...............................this line comes via *1580*

*Birthplace:*
* Waldersbach, Bas-Rhin, Alsace, France

*



I presume you are from the Nicholas line and not his brother the Didier one

looking at this line via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinsheim Baden Germany .................but Caquelin is clearly a french name

..........................................

I presume Gareth will put you in the group with the Walloon members of CTS1848

----------


## torzio

> I have the following as my top matches in Ftdna after family members ................are you saying you are part of this patrick Walsh or not part
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First 3 are one family on my mothers side
> Lello is paternal from trentino
> Miotto from veneto
> ...


contact from Neuman ...........it is confirmed via BDM records , she is my 3rd cousin ...........her line is not via Ydna, but mtdna via my paternal line ( even though ftdna indicate a blue man icon for her ) ........her ancestor in from my great great grandfather brother


.................................................. ......................

----------


## torzio

Sample N145191 is surname Goldin .....from ancestors in Monselice, Padova, Veneto 
he is T1a2-CTS1848 

He sits in Group with the Caquelin of Alsace, also T1a2-CTS1848
and the Bernot family of Walloon Belgium ( who state their origins as Gorizia Friuli .......!?! ) .....to name a few

----------


## torzio

@salento

I do not have nat-geno latest so I cannot look up a T sample ..............can you?
sample ID is 
N25425 ...............belongs to the Wagner or Wegner line from  civ 28, Sanzeno 38010, Italy ................unsure if info is correct except for kit #

other surnames associated with this are Zanardo and Pivetta

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> I do not have nat-geno latest so I cannot look up a T sample ..............can you?
> sample ID is 
> N25425 ...............belongs to the Wagner or Wegner line from  civ 28, Sanzeno 38010, Italy ................unsure if info is correct except for kit #
> 
> other surnames associated with this are Zanardo and Pivetta


👎 ... I don’t see him in the T project or in the matches.

----------


## torzio

Thanks

strange ...........N represents Nat-geno samples

----------


## torzio

*Christina A Tax* 

11/20/2019

3rd Cousin - 5th Cousin ...................longest block 15

The *German surname Tax* is derived from the Old German word "dachs" or "dahs," meaning "badger." 
Spelling variations of this family name include: Dach, Dachs, Das, Taks, Tax, Dache, Dax, Dacks

Ftdna states paternal side ....I need to check

@salento
Ftdna has redone our group in T project............we sit together with the Pole from Pomerania who states he has german ancestors .............I am in regular contact with him ( a grandfather like me )

----------


## torzio

> *Christina A Tax* 
> 
> 11/20/2019
> 
> 3rd Cousin - 5th Cousin ...................longest block 15
> 
> The *German surname Tax* is derived from the Old German word "dachs" or "dahs," meaning "badger." 
> Spelling variations of this family name include: Dach, Dachs, Das, Taks, Tax, Dache, Dax, Dacks
> 
> ...



Tax/Dachs is linked with me via surname Varaschin

http://venetoedintorni.it/cognomi-ve...hin_12657.html

Potrebbe derivare da un soprannome dialettale stante ad indicare la provenienza dei capostipiti dal paese di Varago nel trevisano, oppure basato sul termine che indica la ticchiolatura della frutta, cioè la comparsa delle macchie nerastre, forse a caratterizzare un particolare aspetto della pelle del capostipite.
Il cognome *Varaschin* è tipicamente veneto, del trevisano.
*Varaschini*, rarissimo, sembrerebbe anch'esso veneto e dovrebbe essere dovuto ad un'alterazione del precedente.

my link is via town called Villorba < Veneto http://www.codiceinverso.it/director...varaschin.html

----------


## torzio

> Tax/Dachs is linked with me via surname Varaschin
> 
> http://venetoedintorni.it/cognomi-ve...hin_12657.html
> 
> Potrebbe derivare da un soprannome dialettale stante ad indicare la provenienza dei capostipiti dal paese di Varago nel trevisano, oppure basato sul termine che indica la ticchiolatura della frutta, cioè la comparsa delle macchie nerastre, forse a caratterizzare un particolare aspetto della pelle del capostipite.
> Il cognome *Varaschin* è tipicamente veneto, del trevisano.
> *Varaschini*, rarissimo, sembrerebbe anch'esso veneto e dovrebbe essere dovuto ad un'alterazione del precedente.
> 
> my link is via town called Villorba < Veneto http://www.codiceinverso.it/director...varaschin.html


check sister account ..............vasachin also appears for her

Paternal:
Tiziano Francesco Varaschin, b. 1875 and d. 1930 


looks like from Montebelluna ....................she has for this match 
4th Cousin - Remote Cousin .................longest block 16

will also check

Maternal:
Antonio Franzoi, b. 1791 and d. 1865

----------


## torzio

Very hard to be accepted at this site below........I was not accepted 

anyway , all the T ydna they have

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/T-M70

.....................

of the snp L131 group , they only have 7 samples .......

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/T-L131

6 x Veneto Italy and 1 x Oost Belgium

----------


## Salento

> Very hard to be accepted at this site below........I was not accepted 
> anyway , all the T ydna they have
> https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/T-M70
> .....................
> of the snp L131 group , they only have 7 samples .......
> https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/T-L131
> 6 x Veneto Italy and 1 x Oost Belgium


In the T project I still see only three T-BY143483

you, me and ... 

Do you know if there are other T-BY143483 not included in the project and how many of them are in all?

----------


## torzio

> In the T project I still see only three T-BY143483
> 
> you, me and ... 
> 
> Do you know if there are other T-BY143483 not included in the project and how many of them are in all?



the Pole is a pomeranian from where i said in earlier posts ................I spoke to him yesterday, he still says ancestors german

----------


## Salento

> the Pole is a pomeranian from where i said in earlier posts ................I spoke to him yesterday, he still says ancestors german


I guess ... just the three of us then ... 

... below: R850 SZ36 CL23

----------


## torzio

> I guess ... just the three of us then ... 
> 
> ... below: R850 SZ36 CL23



I do not get your setup ..............my explorer is next to haplo I

----------


## Salento

> I do not get your setup ..............my explorer is next to haplo I


y T SZ36 is one of my closest samples, that’s probably why in the Explorer y T is below me :)

----------


## torzio

> y T SZ36 is one of my closest samples, that’s probably why in the Explorer y T is below me :)


does it matter where you sit in the haplo tree

I sit between I and R .......................my maternal grandfather ( paternal side ) was I .........my mother ydna line is R
my father between G and R
my sister between I and H

----------


## Salento

_... ​T-BY143483 ...

Alone_  :Grin:

----------


## Duarte

> _... ​T-BY143483 ...
> 
> Alone_


Do not worry. It is only a short quarantine period. lol  :Laughing:

----------


## Salento

...got a few questions for my northern Quarantine brother from another mother, ... and he has the answers I seek,

... surely he thought things through by now :)

----------


## Salento

_y T Genius Match (NatGeo)_*

Thomas Jefferson*
_1743-1826
Political Genius

PATERNAL MATCH
_
Jefferson was the third President of the United States and one of the Founding Fathers of the Country.

He was an architect, horticulturalist and an academic scholar, and often a strong advocate for religious freedom and tolerance.

Jefferson, like many of his predecessors, was also a slave-owner.

Under his leadership the U.S. nearly doubled in size, as he orchestrated the Louisiana Purchase of 1803.

----------


## Salento

Edit ...

_Q-Matching:
_
*CL23* (T1a2b (L446) ISOGG 2020) 
GedM. # SZ4327468
Larg. Seg.cM: 1.79

*SZ36* (T1a (M70/PF5662) ISOGG 2020)
GedM. # BY5848416
Larg. Seg. cM: 1.77

----------


## torzio

I have just been upgraded to

*T-SK1480*

Countries 2

Your branch


SK = *Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany*

----------


## Salento

> I have just been upgraded to
> 
> *T-SK1480*
> 
> Countries 2
> 
> Your branch
> 
> 
> SK = *Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany*


nice :) 

... off topic:

----------


## Salento

... coming soon:

EDIT:

... done:

----------


## torzio



----------


## Salento

> 


me too, I’ll tell Gareth :)

----------


## ratchet_fan

> 


Are there really at least 95 subclades of mtdna H?

----------


## Salento

- Edit -

@Ratchet_Fan - mtDNA Hs:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/H

----------


## torzio

> Are there really at least 95 subclades of mtdna H?


maybe more

my H95a matches in ftdna .......and yfull has another 2 different ones ( italian from Bergamo and an austrian from North Tyrol )



Mantovani = from Friuli
Kournay = from bavaria and villach austria
Bergstrand = surname Holler from Trentino italy
Stroberg =from trentino italy and also belluno Italy
the others are Swedes .................I think the swedes are related , daughters of Hokan

----------


## Salento

fyi
my new final Y Haplogroup is T-SK1480

in the beginning ... :

- M70 _23andme_ 

— CTS11984 _LivingDNA_ 

—- CTS8862 _NatGeo / 23andme (updated)_

—— Z19945 _Yseq_

——- BY143483 _“ “_

——— SK1480_ “ “

_

----------


## ratchet_fan

> - Edit -
> 
> @Ratchet_Fan - mtDNA Hs:
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/H


Thanks. That's insane. How come this haplogroup has this structure?

----------


## Salento

> Thanks. That's insane. How come this haplogroup has this structure?


mtDNA H has 100s of clades / mutations, ...

----------


## ratchet_fan

> mtDNA H has 100s of clades / mutations, ...


I know. My question is why? No other mtdna has this many major clades.

I - 7 clades
J - 2 clades
K- 3 clades 
T- 3 clades 
U- 9 clades

V also seems to have a lot of clades. I think 28.

Both are descendants of HV. Which seems to have 17 clades.

So what caused HV, H and V to have so many different subclades vs something like JT, J and T?

----------


## Salento

> I know. My question is why? No other mtdna has this many major clades.
> 
> I - 7 clades
> J - 2 clades
> K- 3 clades 
> T- 3 clades 
> U- 9 clades
> 
> V also seems to have a lot of clades. I think 28.
> ...


Could be that in an ancient past the mt H population has been successful, ... the higher the population, the more possibilities for faster mutations.

For example: if in the past took about 1,000+ years to get a mutation, nowadays that we're 7+ billions of people, there's a chance of multiple mutations in just one generation, I think. 

... It took over 200,000 years of human history for the world's population to reach 1 billion, and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population


NatGeo said that about 40% of the population of Rome and Athens is mt H, ... the highest percentage of this line in Europe is in Ireland, where it makes up 61 percent of the population:

_... Beginning about 15,000 years ago—after the ice sheets had begun their retreat—humans moved north again and recolonized western Europe.

By far the most frequent mitochondrial lineage carried by these expanding groups was haplogroup H.

Because of the population growth that quickly followed this expansion, your haplogroup now dominates the European female landscape.

Today haplogroup H comprises 40 to 60 percent of the gene pool of most European populations.

In Rome and Athens, for example, the frequency of H is around 40 percent of the entire population, and it exhibits similar frequencies throughout western Europe.

Moving eastward the frequencies of H gradually decreases, clearly illustrating the migratory path these settlers followed as they left the Iberian Peninsula after the ice sheets had receded. Haplogroup H is found at around 25 percent in Turkey and around 20 percent in the Caucasus Mountains ...

Haplogroup H is a great example of the effect that population dynamics such as bottleneck events, founder effect, genetic drift, and rapid population growth, have on the genetic diversity of resulting populations ..._

----------


## Salento

... on MTA my mtDNA beat my Y at least 10 to 1


*Y T:*



*mtDNA H:*

----------


## torzio

> ... on MTA my mtDNA beat my Y at least 10 to 1
> 
> 
> *Y T:*
> 
> 
> 
> *mtDNA H:*



on that site , I only match CL23 and SZ36 of the samples you presented

----------


## Salento

> on that site , I only match CL23 and SZ36 of the samples you presented


It also depends on what level you paid for, and the number of samples you have.

----------


## torzio

Yfull kit YF75971 I was told is T1a2 and Z19945 .............I asked for more information

Sample from ...Thuringen Germany

----------


## Salento

*I3403 (1805 AD) Skeleton Lake* (traveler)

*T1a2 (L131)

*I3403 closest modern



*I3403 Closest Ancient*

----------


## Salento

MTA y T Tree:

R850 - SZ36 - CL23 - R120 - R1543 - I3403

----------


## torzio

> MTA y T Tree:
> 
> R850 - SZ36 - CL23 - R120 - R1543 - I3403



mine

*Skeleton Lake Traveller - Hellenic*I3403 (1805 AD)

*mtDNA Haplogroup: X2d**Y-DNA Haplogroup: T1a2 (L131)**Genetic Distance: 21.442*
*Sample Match! 94% closer than other users*

----------


## Salento

??? LivingDNA shows an ancient y T migration to Australia ???
I thought it was a y K !!!
_
‘A0-T’ ‘F’ ‘K’ ‘T’
_

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Salento and Torzio: Just for my own information, Y-DNA T arrived in Italy in various places with Neolithic expansion or earlier. Wow, I know you two have indicated you have the same Y-DNA Haplogroup buy seeing both of your MyTrueancestry Y DNA Trees match up exactly is incredible. An American of Italian ancestry whose ancestors are from Puglia and an Australian of Italian Ancestry from Northern region matching up that close. Wow. 

Thanks for the posts from both of you, really informative and neat to see that way in successive posts.

----------


## torzio

> ??? LivingDNA shows an ancient y T migration to Australia ???
> I thought it was a y K !!!
> _
> ‘A0-T’ ‘F’ ‘K’ ‘T’
> _



Living are talking about haplogroup K-M9 .....see below for Australians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9

their K-M9 , IIRC became haplogroups M and S 

our K-M9 became haplogroup LT ...............and then this split into L and T

----------


## Salento

> Salento and Torzio: Just for my own information, Y-DNA T arrived in Italy in various places with Neolithic expansion or earlier. Wow, I know you two have indicated you have the same Y-DNA Haplogroup buy seeing both of your MyTrueancestry Y DNA Trees match up exactly is incredible. An American of Italian ancestry whose ancestors are from Puglia and an Australian of Italian Ancestry from Northern region matching up that close. Wow. 
> Thanks for the posts from both of you, really informative and neat to see that way in successive posts.


y T is been in Europe at least since the Early Neolithic.

I was born in Italy (Puglia), and as of now I've lived more years in Italy than in America, thought I’m a U.S. Citizen now, ... 

under Bush the Young the US needed smart people, ... obviously they made a mistake, LOL


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains

----------


## torzio

> Salento and Torzio: Just for my own information, Y-DNA T arrived in Italy in various places with Neolithic expansion or earlier. Wow, I know you two have indicated you have the same Y-DNA Haplogroup buy seeing both of your MyTrueancestry Y DNA Trees match up exactly is incredible. An American of Italian ancestry whose ancestors are from Puglia and an Australian of Italian Ancestry from Northern region matching up that close. Wow. 
> 
> Thanks for the posts from both of you, really informative and neat to see that way in successive posts.



since haplogroup T have been found in eastern Bulgaria and central Germany in early neolithic times, then I guess salento and my lines split off towards Italy on that line somewhere....maybe ancient Hungaria

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> y T is been in Europe at least since the Early Neolithic.
> 
> I was born in Italy (Puglia), and as of now I've lived more years in Italy than in America, thought I’m an American Citizen now, ... 
> 
> under Bush the Young the US needed smart people, ... obviously they made a mistake, LOL
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains


Salento: Wow, I didn't know you were actually born in Puglia! Man that is really neat, I assume you still have first cousins there, etc. I just thought your grandparents and great-parents came over during the large immigration from Southern Italians during the late 19th and early 20th century. Thanks for the clarification. You might have said that somewhere and I just missed it.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> since haplogroup T have been found in eastern Bulgaria and central Germany in early neolithic times, then I guess salento and my lines split off towards Italy on that line somewhere....maybe ancient Hungaria


Ok, makes sense. Has anyone been able to pinpoint the earliest T1a in Italy. Just curios as to how accurate these Y DNA analyses like Ftdna Big Y are. I have been thinking about doing more on my I-M223 Y DNA to further find out about my own line as I-M223 was the Y DNA of the 2 Mesolithic WHG in the Ancient Roman paper by Antonio et al 2019 and the other was the immediate up-stream I-M436. I-M436, the immediate Upstream has been documented in Trapani in Western Sicily in the pre-print Vande Loosdrecht et al 2020 paper in a WHG from the Grotta Del Uzzo site in Trapani.

So I am slowly starting to do more research on my own Y DNA line and looking for good DNA sites to do that work, many here suggest Ftdna Big Y so that is a likely one I am going to use.

----------


## Salento

@Torzio thanks

@PT
If you look above at the image on post #805 you'll see that R850 (650 BC Latin) is a y T1a...

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio thanks
> 
> @PT
> If you look above at the image on post #805 you'll see that R850 (650 BC Latin) is a y T1a...



since *T* is under haplogroup K-M9, along with other haplogroups of* R , N, O, Q and L* ...............it means that *T* has *no* connection with haplogroup of *J or E*

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> @Torzio thanks
> 
> @PT
> If you look above at the image on post #805 you'll see that R850 (650 BC Latin) is a y T1a...


Sure is, ok, that is something. So you and Torzio not only share genetic affinity with R850 (I do as well) but share his Y DNA Haplogroup. Very good results for both of you. :Good Job:

----------


## Salento

> Sure is, ok, that is something. So you and Torzio not only share genetic affinity with R850 (I do as well) but share his Y DNA Haplogroup. Very good results for both of you.


not exactly, ... you asked for the oldest T1a in Italy,
R850 is T1a1..., Torzio and I are T1a2... though we're all descended from T1a :) 

also we autosomally differ from R850, especially Torzio, I think.

----------


## torzio

> not exactly, ... you asked for the oldest T1a in Italy,
> R850 is T1a1..., Torzio and I are T1a2... though we're all descended from T1a :) 
> 
> also we autosomally differ from R850, especially Torzio, I think.



I have zero R850 sample appearing in my first 100 and also does not appear in my outlier samples

----------


## Salento

> I have zero R850 sample appearing in my first 100 and also does not appear in my outlier samples


I do share a deep dive with R850 :) 



IA dod k7

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> not exactly, ... you asked for the oldest T1a in Italy,
> R850 is T1a1..., Torzio and I are T1a2... though we're all descended from T1a :) 
> 
> also we autosomally differ from R850, especially Torzio, I think.


Ok, I get DNA deep dive with R850 as well even though I don't have T1a. Sorry about my own confusion. It terms of distance, I have always been closest to R437 as well. R850 shows up for me in Deep Dive in MyTrueancestry but R437 is always closer for me. Dodecad 12B Ancient. Ok, you get Deep Dive with both R437 and R850, 2 Iron Age Romans.  :Good Job:  While I am close to R437 on all calculators, I don't get the Deep Dive match.

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani

4.18976133
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata

13.23641568
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea

16.54641653
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia

17.40331865
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro

20.72008205
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia

23.17349132
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

23.21816315
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima

23.78614092
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia

25.41911682
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica

27.54563123
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea

30.24831400
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I have zero R850 sample appearing in my first 100 and also does not appear in my outlier samples


Ok, thanks for the clarification. It is the Y DNA that you and Salento share with R850 only and not the Deep Dive match for you that Salento has.

----------


## Salento

> Ok, I get DNA deep dive with R850 as well even though I don't have T1a. Sorry about my own confusion. It terms of distance, I have always been closest to R437 as well. R850 shows up for me in Deep Dive in MyTrueancestry but R437 is always closer for me. Dodecad 12B Ancient. Ok, you get Deep Dive with both R437 and R850, 2 Iron Age Romans.  While I am close to R437 on all calculators, I don't get the Deep Dive match.
> 
> Distance to:
> PalermoTrapani
> 
> 4.18976133
> R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
> 
> 13.23641568
> ...


I’m much closer to R437 than R850 too :) 

from above:
R437 Largest chain 29.75 cM
R850 Largest chain 9.21 cM

Dod W9:

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Salento: Here are my Dodecad K9 < 5 distances. R437 is still my lowest, R850 comes in with World 9 at 12.1 similar to K12 Dodecad. We get many close distances on same samples.

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani

1.10476242
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio

1.31628264
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

1.32676298
R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

1.53642442
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata

1.82019230
R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.04489609
R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

2.05492092
R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.13621160
R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

2.24098193
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.30169503
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

2.39457721
R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

2.88750758
R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.06411488
R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

3.20686763
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

3.28330626
R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche

3.31430234
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.36801128
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

3.49931422
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti

3.50762028
R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

4.45753295
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi

4.70699479
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

----------


## Salento

@PT  :Good Job: 

I think that many of us would have totally blended in around Romulus,  :Cool V: 

... lol

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> @PT 
> 
> I think that many of us would have totally blended in around Romulus, 
> 
> ... lol


No doubt :Good Job:

----------


## torzio

> I do share a deep dive with R850 :) 
> 
> IA dod k7





new matches to myself ...................no R850

only orange bars count for myself

----------


## Salento

> new matches to myself ...................no R850
> 
> only orange bars count for myself


some of your matches and Otzi,

 :Thinking:  I get a lot of Otzi DNA, he's from the Alps, if I didn't know who he is, I'd say he's Salentino  :Grin:

----------


## Salento

T1a1... R850 650 BC vs T1a2... Salento 2020 AD


R1b... R437 300 BC vs T1a2... Salento 2020 AD

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Salento: How do you do a comparison of your plot to those samples in Mytrueancestry? Do you have to upload a kit from those other samples and do a kit to kit comparison?

----------


## Salento

> Salento: How do you do a comparison of your plot to those samples in Mytrueancestry? Do you have to upload a kit from those other samples and do a kit to kit comparison?


I downloaded the .bam and ..., but you could upgrade to Olympus, or (credit to Jovialis):

http://www.mediafire.com/file/hzqdry...mples.zip/file

... unzip and upload to MTA 

... go to “Additional Features” ... “Compare Kits”

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Ok, got it. thanks. and thanks to Jovialis again. Btw not to switch threads but Jovialis updated the ancient Roman samples from Antonio et al 2019 and categorized them by the C1 to C7 clusters in the Antonio et al 2019 paper. Check out that thread. Pretty interesting results and again credit and thanks to Jovialis for doing that.

----------


## Salento

.... _ Determine from which civilizations and time periods you inherited the most ancient DNA segments_

100% Early Modern Period - Roman

----------


## Huracan

My archaeogenetic results make sense given my mostly Spanish (or Iberian) background. Cool that I share DNA with Ötzi the Iceman as well as two of the Skeleton Lake remains, including the T1a2 one.
ancient pop.jpgScreen Shot 2020-09-04 at 7.23.51 PM.jpgScreen Shot 2020-09-04 at 7.23.43 PM.jpgScreen Shot 2020-09-04 at 7.25.47 PM.jpg

I do not understand where the Illyrian comes from. It shows up for my family members too. When I check the ancient groups that match the modern Spanish populations in their database, I also see Illyrian as a top match for almost all the regions, especially those in the south and east (Extremadura, Andalucía, Murcia, Valencia, Cataluña) and also Castile y León (north-central). Tried to understand it as a sort of Proto-Celtic Indo-European influence? Not even the modern groups of the western Balkans and the Adriatic coast in their database have Illyrian as one of their top ancient matches (Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Albanian Tosk, Macedonian). Also don't really see it anywhere but Iberia...

----------


## torzio

> My archaeogenetic results make sense given my mostly Spanish (or Iberian) background. Cool that I share DNA with Ötzi the Iceman as well as two of the Skeleton Lake remains, including the T1a2 one.
> Attachment 12307
> Attachment 12308
> Attachment 12309
> Attachment 12310
> 
> I do not understand where the Illyrian comes from. It shows up for my family members too. When I check the ancient groups that match the modern Spanish populations in their database, I also see Illyrian as a top match for almost all the regions, especially those in the south and east (Extremadura, Andalucía, Murcia, Valencia, Cataluña) and also Castile y León (north-central). Tried to understand it as a sort of Proto-Celtic Indo-European influence? Not even the modern groups of the western Balkans and the Adriatic coast in their database have Illyrian as one of their top ancient matches (Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Albanian Tosk, Macedonian). Also don't really see it anywhere but Iberia...



no such thing as an ethnic illyrian......its a geographical term......is is like saying iberian ............most likely they mean a west-balkan group, maybe Dalmatian or Liburnian, they seem the only sea power in the late bronze age and early iron age

What is your current snp......as mine has changed again

----------


## Huracan

> no such thing as an ethnic illyrian......its a geographical term......is is like saying iberian ............most likely they mean a west-balkan group, maybe Dalmatian or Liburnian, they seem the only sea power in the late bronze age and early iron age
> 
> What is your current snp......as mine has changed again


Screen Shot 2020-09-05 at 9.50.55 AM.jpg

My SNP remains CTS1848. FTDNA shows the country breakdown as well as new downstream SNP groups.

----------


## torzio

> Screen Shot 2020-09-05 at 9.50.55 AM.jpg
> 
> My SNP remains CTS1848. FTDNA shows the country breakdown as well as new downstream SNP groups.



yfull has this for you....you are in the bottom group



the samples beginning with ERS or HG are old and ancient samples

----------


## Salento

Skeleton Lake Traveler I3403 y T1a2 (L131) on my chrome 15 :) 




... and same chrome, but in a different position: I3404 (he’s mt H12, almost like me)

----------


## Frank A. Fontana DC

Does anyone known which subclade of Y-DNA T1a is mostly in the Massif Central of Auvergne, France?

----------


## torzio

There is both T1a1 and T1a2 in that area as well as Alsace and Lorraine

I remember the french study put Auvergne and Alsace both at 4%

----------


## Salento

_... a T1a2 ‘relative’ from 215 years ago:_
*
I3403* - Skeleton Lake Traveler -1805 AD

----------


## torzio

There is still no final completion ( still testing ) on the first sample in the beginning of the T-Z19945 tree path 

T-Y6033*id:YF75971 *DEU [DE-THURINGEN]* formed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 7600 ybp

----------


## torzio

1 step from me ..............a Prussian of jewish religion coming from same place as the Pole in my yfull and ftdna group , ie, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbork province


*Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677*

----------


## torzio

> There is still no final completion ( still testing ) on the first sample in the beginning of the T-Z19945 tree path 
> 
> T-Y6033*id:YF75971 *DEU [DE-THURINGEN]* formed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 7600 ybp



There is another new T in the Group T1a2-CTS1848 ........which is one below me .......in YFull

----------


## torzio

> There is another new T in the Group T1a2-CTS1848 ........which is one below me .......in YFull



new person is

*T-Z19945
*
**
*3100 (38002400)*
*Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, d. 1874*

Belgium




 Nicolas VIRONET, born about May 1818, deceased 30 May 1874 (Saturday) - Jumet, 6040, Hainaut, Belgique aged about 56 years old, Houilleur

_Married 4 November 1845 (Tuesday), Saint-Vaast, 7100, Hainaut, Belgique,  to_ Placidie-Joseph COPPIN, born 8 October 1823 (Wednesday) - Saint-Vaast, 7100, Hainaut, Belgique, deceased 27 March 1888 (Tuesday) - Jumet, 6040, Hainaut, Belgique aged 64 years old




children

  Marie-Charlotte VIRONET 1846-1846  Marie-Charlotte-Josèphe VIRONET 1847- _ Married 20 May 1868 (Wednesday), Jumet, 6040, Hainaut, Belgique,  to_ Jean-François LEFÈVRE 1843-  Jules-Auguste VIRONET 1849- _ Married 28 May 1873 (Wednesday), Jumet, 6040, Hainaut, Belgique,  to_ Élisie ANDRÉ 1848- with 
  Léona-Placidie VIRONET 1873-  Edmond-Désiré VIRONET 1882-  Corilda-Louisa-Philomène VIRONET 1885-  Alice-Augusta VIRONET 1887-  Francine-Augustine-Nelly VIRONET 1888-
  Jean-Joseph VIRONET 1851-1858  Jean-Philippe VIRONET 1854-1854  Mort-Né VIRONET 1855-1855  Marie-Thérèse VIRONET 1855-1855  Jean-Philippe VIRONET 1857- _ Married in 1896, Hartford City, Indiana, USA,  to_ Alexina WUILLAUME 1857-  Nicolas VIRONET 1859-1875

----------


## torzio

I cannot read belgium ( walloon, french or flemish )

L’an mil huit cent dix huit, le cinq du mois de mai à neuf heures du matin, par devant nous, Bourgmestre et échevins de la ville de Mons, province du Hainaut, est comparue Agnès Delporte, âgée de vingr deux ans, employée à l’hospice des enfants abandonnés de cette ville et y demeurant, qui nous a déclaré qu’hier à neuf heures trois quart du soir, il a été trouvé dans le tour de l’hospice des enfants abandonnés, un enfant tel qu’elle nous l’a présenté emmailloté dans un morceau de callemande noire, deux mouchoirs simples, une braie, une chemise, un capotin de basin blanc, un bonnet de perkalle garni de tulle de soie festonnée et une sandrinette de coton à lignes rouges et blanches ayant dans ses maillots la moitié d’une image, après avoir visité cet enfant avons reconnu qu’il était nouveau né et de sexe masculin. De suite avons inscrit cet enfant sous les prénom et nom de *Nicolas Vironet* et avons ordonné qu’il fut remis au dit hospice. De quoi nous avons dressé acte en présence de la dite Agnès Delporte et que nous avons signé, cette dernière ayant déclaré ne savoir écrire après qu’il lui a été fait lecture du contenu du présent procès verbal

----------


## torzio

seems like nicholas Vironet was not the true name

https://images.findagrave.com/photos...465cb47a5.jpeg

----------


## torzio

Gian Francesco Domenico Vironet born 1572

Oldest Vironet surname I found


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquixanes

who married a female surname Talliaferro

----------


## torzio

@salento

BY143483 has been split into 2 branches by ftdna .......( T tree was redone by ftdna staff on the 19th of October ), which branch are you in?.........as I have 1 with me in SK1480 branch and the other person in the other branch

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> BY143483 has been split into 2 branches by ftdna .......( T tree was redone by ftdna staff on the 19th of October ), which branch are you in?.........as I have 1 with me in SK1480 branch and the other person in the other branch


In the y T Project we’re in the same BY143483 Group, ... me, you, and Anonymous :)

----------


## torzio

> In the y T Project we’re in the same BY143483 Group, ... me, you, and Anonymous :)


Anonymous is the Polish guy who I chat with .................he states his line is from Thuringia Germany 100 years or so previously

BigY ftdna , split the BY143483 into 2 groups ..............I have one person with me and the other person went into the other group ...........I cannot tell if you have remained with me in the new grouping.....do you have snp SK1480 ???

----------


## torzio

Also note that CTS1848 group split into 2 branches 2 days ago ........both people from Belgium

post #844( Vironet ) has been reassigned into one of these groups

and the other is

*T-Z19950* > T-CTS1848>T-Z19945>T-CTS8862>* Jean Tillieux/Belgium*

----------


## Salento

> Anonymous is the Polish guy who I chat with .................he states his line is from Thuringia Germany 100 years or so previously
> 
> BigY ftdna, split the BY143483 into 2 groups ..............I have one person with me and the other person went into the other group ...........I cannot tell if you have remained with me in the new grouping.....do you have snp SK1480 ???



I didn’t do the BigY, .. I tested instead SK1480 (and some others) with Yseq, ... and I’m positive for it:

----------


## torzio

interesting theory by T ftdna project team

*So far T-Z19945 has three main branches and many sub groups. ............: branches below T-CTS11984 (YFull's T-CTS3767) represent growth in the Bronze age (since 2000 BC) following stagnation after the initial farming "growth spurt".*

----------


## Salento

> interesting theory by T ftdna project team
> 
> *So far T-Z19945 has three main branches and many sub groups. ............: branches below T-CTS11984 (YFull's T-CTS3767) represent growth in the Bronze age (since 2000 BC) following stagnation after the initial farming "growth spurt".*


... I wouldn’t call it a “growth spurt”, 
It’s the least prolific y Haplogroup of all :)

----------


## torzio

> ... I wouldn’t call it a “growth spurt”, 
> It’s the least prolific y Haplogroup of all :)



T came into europe in early neolitihc with H ydna and G2a ydna ............all where butchered by later incoming ydna , like R1 , I as per some examples

Anyhow......there are a lot of belgiums in our branch......a mix of maybe gallic and ancient germanic alomg the rhine river.............actually, I would like to see more rhenish , lorraine, Alsace ydna in the future to make sure

----------


## torzio

> T came into europe in early neolitihc with H ydna and G2a ydna ............all where butchered by later incoming ydna , like R1 , I as per some examples
> 
> Anyhow......there are a lot of belgiums in our branch......a mix of maybe gallic and ancient germanic alomg the rhine river.............actually, I would like to see more rhenish , lorraine, Alsace ydna in the future to make sure


another T

T-L131> T-446 oldest ancestor .......Narciso Marotte born in the years 1460's-1470's South Belgium, not sure what his snp's .........doing a Bigy atm

----------


## torzio

Another T -L446 group...........found via my father dna link ............indicating inside last 200 years

two spellings and 2 birth sites ..............I need to get more info

surname Posner and Pozner .................a single s in a surname or town in italy IIRC has a z sound

from either Molise Italy, and/or Marche Italy and salzburg Austria

----------


## torzio

> Another T -L446 group...........found via my father dna link ............indicating inside last 200 years
> 
> two spellings and 2 birth sites ..............I need to get more info
> 
> surname Posner and Pozner .................a single s in a surname or town in italy IIRC has a z sound
> 
> from either Molise Italy, and/or Marche Italy and salzburg Austria



Another T which is via my distant links with the Bacchion surname ................On DNA Geneanet site .........name Andre Frasson born 1850ish in Castelfranco Veneto

----------


## torzio

> Also note that CTS1848 group split into 2 branches 2 days ago ........both people from Belgium
> 
> post #844( Vironet ) has been reassigned into one of these groups
> 
> and the other is
> 
> *T-Z19950* > T-CTS1848>T-Z19945>T-CTS8862>* Jean Tillieux/Belgium*



there has been cross chit-chat between the above, ....with the person who runs Vironet sample and the person that runs the Bernot Lines in T1a2-CTS1848 group in ftdna....and they are all related.....Bernot mentioned to them that ..*mentioned that our (* cts1848 *) lines should join yours (* me *), originating in Northern Italy, 1300s? ...............


*

----------


## torzio

I do not understand this sample

MI59655 
V. Richter, b. bef. 1650 and d. aft. 1720
 Czech Republic ....... 
 T-CTS1080






linked to my son paternally ....but not with myself or my sons paternal grandfather ( my father ) .......................I do not know if its a glitch

----------


## torzio

other Belgium or lorraine France samples which seems to have a connection 

IN88554 
Pascal LAURENT, b. ca 1576 d. 1657 
Belgium.......
 T-BY160604





917435
 Nicolas Caquelin, 1610-1655

 France .........T-Z19947

----------


## Huracan

> there has been cross chit-chat between the above, ....with the person who runs Vironet sample and the person that runs the Bernot Lines in T1a2-CTS1848 group in ftdna....and they are all related.....Bernot mentioned to them that ..*mentioned that our (* cts1848 *) lines should join yours (* me *), originating in Northern Italy, 1300s? ...............
> 
> 
> *


Wow so very interesting. So the Bernot and Vironet lines are linked somehow back to Gorizia, Italy?

----------


## torzio

> Wow so very interesting. So the Bernot and Vironet lines are linked somehow back to Gorizia, Italy?



Vironet is a fabricated name....see link 

Matt who runs the Verona part of the Vironet line cannot find who the Vironet name came from or original name was , so he is doing further checks


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...icolas-vironet

----------


## torzio

> Vironet is a fabricated name....see link 
> 
> Matt who runs the Verona part of the Vironet line cannot find who the Vironet name came from or original name was , so he is doing further checks
> 
> 
> https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...icolas-vironet



Checking atm, with the name change from Vironet to Verona if it was anything to do with ancestor finding the true identity of Nicholas Vironet .....................the surname Verona is found in great number since 1610 ( from my search ) in the Carnian alps, Friuli region in a town called Lauco

Funny thing is that the link I found of Pietro Verona b 1665 from Lauco , married in 1690 to Maria De Colle is managed by a women who runs a family tree in Geneanet in which we have DNA matches .....

----------


## torzio

@salento

Carnian alps...named after the Carni tribe


There you go ......you could be a meat eater , lol..............T-Z19945 

the only ancient tribe BC tribe found in North italy and belgium 

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...arianCarni.htm

----------


## torzio

> Checking atm, with the name change from Vironet to Verona if it was anything to do with ancestor finding the true identity of Nicholas Vironet .....................the surname Verona is found in great number since 1610 ( from my search ) in the Carnian alps, Friuli region in a town called Lauco
> 
> Funny thing is that the link I found of Pietro Verona b 1665 from Lauco , married in 1690 to Maria De Colle is managed by a women who runs a family tree in Geneanet in which we have DNA matches .....



the linking verona family tree




*the Dna matching link*  with me as per Geneanet site ..................only names I see which match my family tree is Zuliani, Spilotti ( i have Spilotto or Spiloto ) and Colle ...( I have Collen as my ancestor )


the women who runs the site wrote this ...can someone translate for me please

Moitiée friuline, moitiée normande avec un zeste celtique 
_FAMILLE TRAVANI / FAMILLE LENEVEU_
_Longtemps apanage des nobles et des princes, la généalogie avait pour vocation à garantir le pouvoir des rois, justifier un droit de succession ou un titre de noblesse. Désormais, par curiosité ou par plaisir, pour fêter un évènement ou prouver son droit, chacun peu établir sa généalogie.



_

----------


## torzio



----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> Carnian alps...named after the Carni tribe
> 
> 
> There you go ......you could be a meat eater , lol..............T-Z19945 
> 
> the only ancient tribe BC tribe found in North italy and belgium 
> 
> https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...arianCarni.htm



... not often, but I heard some people say “Carne” as “Damn it” or “wtf”, 
... maybe that's what the Romans meant when they named the Carni tribe,

... I guess “Spicy Meatball” would have been too long, ... lol

----------


## torzio

> Wow so very interesting. So the Bernot and Vironet lines are linked somehow back to Gorizia, Italy?


latest in yfull

there are 2 brothers I know of from the Bernot family ......maybe there is 3 


who matches me in yfull

----------


## Salento

... also “carni” in my dialect means Skin Complexion.

... “La ‘stria tene le carni chiare” = “The girl has very fair skin” :)

----------


## torzio

> ... also “carni” in my dialect means Skin Complexion.
> 
> ... “La ‘stria tene le carni chiare” = “The girl has very fair skin” :)



"La tosa gha pel ciara"

----------


## Salento

> "La tosa gha pel ciara"


“facimu a Torziu” :

... generally Torzio means Wanderer, but in my dialect it means “the Roman way” = “Each for himself” ... if we go to a Restaurant we ask for separate checks  :Grin:  

ps ... “alla Romana” has other meanings in other places in Italy:
“equally sharing a common expenditure”

----------


## torzio

> “facimu a Torziu” :
> 
> ... generally Torzio means Wanderer, but in my dialect it means “the Roman way” = “Each for himself” ... if we go to a Restaurant we ask for separate checks  
> 
> ps ... “alla Romana” has other meanings in other places in Italy:
> “equally sharing a common expenditure”


Tosa = girl
Toso = boy

Torzar = to cut

Torzio = to wander/drift with the tide 

separate for sure  :Grin:  I could not afford a rich man's meal .............its the friuliani who are known as the scots of Italy

..................................

u changed to a red back spider.......many here in australia .......but daddy long leg spiders hunt them down to eat......https://australian.museum/learn/anim...g-legs-spider/

...................................
Pavana = a voglia 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc1Sb-MNXDY

----------


## Salento

> Tosa = girl
> Toso = boy
> 
> Torzar = to cut
> 
> Torzio = to wander/drift with the tide 
> 
> separate for sure  I could not afford a rich man's meal .............its the friuliani who are known as the scots of Italy
> 
> ...


We’re not very stingy in Salento :) 

imho ... the “careful with money” gene range on average at 55% strength, lol

----------


## Salento

... Neanderthal has the Hoarder gene, maybe it's also the Stingy gene:
from 23andme: _“You have 1 variant associated with: having difficulty discarding rarely-used possessions”,_ lol

----------


## Huracan

Was recently able to trace my paternal line to ~1700s in the Canary Islands, Spain. Updated my info on FTDNA. Based on oral histories and genealogies of other Fundora families, this was expected as the Canaries served as a notable source of Fundora's who migrated to Cuba or elsewhere. In trying to find the ultimate mainland source, people have told me Asturias in Northern Spain may be the origin place of the surname. Perhaps that is where my paternal line ultimately hails from...

So this officially links my CTS1848 line to Spain

----------


## torzio

> Was recently able to trace my paternal line to ~1700s in the Canary Islands, Spain. Updated my info on FTDNA. Based on oral histories and genealogies of other Fundora families, this was expected as the Canaries served as a notable source of Fundora's who migrated to Cuba or elsewhere. In trying to find the ultimate mainland source, people have told me Asturias in Northern Spain may be the origin place of the surname. Perhaps that is where my paternal line ultimately hails from...
> 
> So this officially links my CTS1848 line to Spain



your marker does not appear to be 

Ancient Canary Islanders *(Guanches)*

----------


## Huracan

> your marker does not appear to be 
> 
> Ancient Canary Islanders *(Guanches)*


No, it definitely is not Guanche or native Canary Islander. It was most definitely introduced via Spanish colonization of the islands.

----------


## torzio

Another 2 x T1a that are distant matches to myself

Christian Burtscher 


Francesco Antonio Onorato (1727 - 1806) Lucania, Italy 

.................................................. .....................

others of T1a2 not linked to myself, but close for my snp


Carl August Zimmerling b.1834 from North-Tyrol


Hans Caspar Gräser; b1660 from Nosellari, Trento, Trentino-South Tyrol, Italy

----------


## Salento

> Another 2 x T1a that are distant matches to myself
> 
> Christian Burtscher 
> 
> 
> Francesco Antonio Onorato (1727 - 1806) Lucania, Italy 
> 
> .................................................. .....................
> 
> ...


There should be a few T1a2 (SK1480) in Lucania (Basilicata), ... some relatives fled there after WW2 (wrong side of history) until the Amnesty, ... the usual :) 
one of them met his wife and had a family, he didn’t go back to Puglia, ...

----------


## torzio

> There should be a few T1a2 (SK1480) in Lucania (Basilicata), ... some relatives fled there after WW2 (wrong side of history) until the Amnesty, ... the usual :) 
> one of them met his wife and had a family, he didn’t go back to Puglia, ...



thanks

I got a message that the person came from Foggia or Molise 

the surname comes from these 2 area

Biccari, Foggia, Italy
Alberona, Foggia, Italy

I was also given this as his parents

Vincenzo Onorato, Rachele Verdorato

Usually ato surname endings are Veneti....same as endings with lin, otto, acco and gher to name a few ...................not to say that Vincenzo was Veneto , because he seems complete foggian

----------


## torzio

> thanks
> 
> I got a message that the person came from Foggia or Molise 
> 
> the surname comes from these 2 area
> 
> Biccari, Foggia, Italy
> Alberona, Foggia, Italy
> 
> ...



had to recheck ...I was slightly wrong




my cousin, my wife on the border of veneti and friuli have endings of

t, and olo


then there is also lin endings
Guidolin
Santolin
Michielin .....................all after christian names , Michiel being Michele in venetian

----------


## torzio

new yfull matches



they have me confirm SK1480 , but Yfull do not use it
Known SNPs at this position: SK1480
A
 to
G

 *YB*



I lost my notes on samples NA20758 ........it says TSI ( toscani ) but I think it is Apulia.....one of these below

TB9PE	Benedetto Bari, Italy 
13	22	13	10	13	13	11	12	11	14	13	30	16	8	9	11	12	26	15	19	33	11	11	15	16	10	12	23	24	16	13	18	17	34	34	13	9


YSU4S	Da Lessio Salerno, Italy 
13 22	13	10	13	13	11	12	11	14	13	30	16	9	9	11	12	27	15	19	35	11	11	15	16 10	11	23	25	16	13	19	16	34	34	14	9	12	11	15	11	8	17	17	8	11	10	8	12	11 20	20	17	10	12	12	15	8	26	21	11	12	14	10	11	12	11

----------


## torzio

Benedetto I know married a german woman

Da Lessio can also be Alessio as I have spoken to a woman who runs the line ............but I think the original surname was lessio

https://www.antenati-italiani.org/it/cognomi/8234-lessio


https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...taliani/LESSIO

----------


## Salento

probably: ... D’Alesssio ... :) 

Il mio ... :

----------


## torzio

the swedish one is the viking from circa 1050AD

----------


## Salento

... Stratford ... go by I-95 or nicer Merritt Parkway to get to New York  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

> ... Stratford ... go by I-95 or nicer Merritt Parkway to get to New York



this one is the latest with the new updated snp 

compare the last two

post 886 to post 883

----------


## torzio

A new yfull match for myself


James Carson b. 1765

England
 YF13207

 
T-BY45377





hmm, *Carson* ......from the Good, the Bad and the Ugly film........did he hide the gold

----------


## Huracan

> Yfull has just given me a new branch under Z19945 
> with a Pole and an ancient trentino/South Tyrol sample
> Because there are 3 different non family samples it has been accepted so it is
> T - BY143483


@torzio, how do you know the ERS sample grouped with you and the Pole (Bartosiak) is from Trentino/South Tyrol? It only lists Cagliari, Sardinia as its origin

----------


## torzio

> @torzio, how do you know the ERS sample grouped with you and the Pole (Bartosiak) is from Trentino/South Tyrol? It only lists Cagliari, Sardinia as its origin


I state that ERS is a sardinian who matches another sample in Trentino surname erspamer 
https://www.italianames.com/italian-...-maps/ERSPAMER



The Pole is not from trentino.......we chat regularly on messenger, he states he is currently living in old prusi lands -.......old prussians near the baltic sea , east of Gdansk
He states his ancestors are thuringians 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuringia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

he is an engineer on a merchant boat , trading between Poland and Britain

----------


## torzio

183663
 Erspamer 
 Giovanni ERSPAMER, b. 1704 (Malosco, Italy)
 Italy
 T-M70





this site is so *crap* in updating ones messages

----------


## torzio

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~berta...72.html#I18790

I have a distant DNA connection with this line from link above

*Erspamer, Giovanni Giuseppe* (1826 - 1903)_ - male_ _ 
b. 19 Mar 1826 
d. 23 Sep 1903 in Fondo,Trento,Trentino,Italy_  
_father:_ Erspamer, Giovanni (*1787 - >1835) 
_mother:_ Sartori, Marianna (1791 - 1875) 
_spouse:_ Pretol, Maria (1841 - 1887)

----------


## Huracan

> I state that ERS is a sardinian who matches another sample in Trentino surname erspamer 
> https://www.italianames.com/italian-...-maps/ERSPAMER


Thanks that is interesting.

So is the Erspamer individual (#183663) positive for your same SNP SK1480? or BY143483?

----------


## torzio

> Thanks that is interesting.
> 
> So is the Erspamer individual (#183663) positive for your same SNP SK1480? or BY143483?


not sure .....more analysis needs to be done

he is a T1a2 -L446


check also the old swiss Ulrich , also T1a2

----------


## torzio

4 members of the group below match me in level 0 or 1 , others do not appear





more info below


https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hill-3101

----------


## Huracan

I used SAPP (https://www.jdvsite.com) to create a Y-STR tree of CTS11984/CTS54 to get an idea about origin and dispersal. I specified in my input the currently known positive and negative SNPs for each sample and the program did the rest. It is in high agreement with YFull dates and organization. The red annotations are predictions based on timing and the patterns I see. It suggests CTS11984 originated in Central Europe ≥3,000 ybp, suggesting a connection to the Bronze Age expansion of Indo-Europeans such as the Celts, Italics, Illyrians, etc.

CTS54 tree p1.jpg CTS54 root with CTS8489 and CTS8862

CTS54 tree p2.jpgFirst CTS54* branch: the UK individuals (Powell, etc.)

CTS54 tree p3.jpgCTS8862* and Y17493 branch (Knox, etc.)

CTS54 tree p4.jpg CTS1848 branch (those cut off are Pereira [Azores] on the left and two Bernot individuals at the bottom)

----------


## Huracan

Sorry about the poor image quality. Trying to see how to share a higher resolution one.

----------


## torzio

> I used SAPP (https://www.jdvsite.com) to create a Y-STR tree of CTS11984/CTS54 to get an idea about origin and dispersal. I specified in my input the currently known positive and negative SNPs for each sample and the program did the rest. It is in high agreement with YFull dates and organization. The red annotations are predictions based on timing and the patterns I see. It suggests CTS11984 originated in Central Europe ≥3,000 ybp, suggesting a connection to the Bronze Age expansion of Indo-Europeans such as the Celts, Italics, Illyrians, etc.
> 
> Attachment 12509


attachment does not work for me.....it says, ask administrator

----------


## Huracan

CTS54 tree p5.jpg
Last part: the rest of Z19945 (not including CTS1848) showing BY143483, the Ashkenazi group (PAGES00113) and the Brooks/Curtiss group

----------


## torzio

> Attachment 12523
> Last part: the rest of Z19945 (not including CTS1848) showing BY143483, the Ashkenazi group (PAGES00113) and the Brooks/Curtiss group



yes it is blurry

I think you have my notes of some of these people I gathered....but here again

David A. Hill b.1850 and d 1885 ....ftdna of 0 for me .................ancestor from Scotland ................horse traders for the confederacy

Reddick Knox ......ftdna ) for me ....................ancestor from Hesse Germany , original surname Radich ( after radish )


François Bernot b. abt 1618 Virelles (?) and 2 others ....ftdna of 1 for me ...........Walloons, Cannon makers for spanish-netherlands army, originally from Gorizia italy


John/1f Brooks, b a1640-d 1695 Stratford, CT .....ftdna of 1 for me ........original surname Brucke from Germany .............4 generation separation from Curtiss line

Curtiss .............ftdna of 1 from me.......with the Brooks line ...............came out of Frush and Freshour line in Germany
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

Lee line ............ftdna of 1 from me ..............family from York England , .......original person Levy Lee .....stated not jewish

Jose Rodrigues Pereira, b. 1800 ...ftdna of 1 from me ..............from Azores, moved to England and changed surname to Perry.....thats all I know



Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677 .............ftdna of 1 from me ......from old East Germany .......marker T-CTS8862


Johann Adam Wolff, b.1688 and d. 1741 ...............ftdna of 1 from me ........German no other info




Ivan Mozetič ............ftdna of 0 from me ............from Slovenia, original surname Mozet ( venetian word for a type of sausage ), from either trentino or Belluno province of Veneto in cities of Fonzaso or Seren del Grappa 


Charles Sheppard Vinson Jones , 1760 carolina ...ftdna of 0 from me ..........original surname eberhart from germany


Michael Benedetto, Toretto, Italy ....ftdna of 0 from me............originally near Foggia Italy


Gerhard Ludwig Fiedler ................ftdna of 1 from me ..........Tyrol Austria


William Bradshaw Atherholt ..............ftdna from me .............Hanover , Germany - Oct 1789 



all others below are ftdna of 1 from me


Timothy W. Parker, b.c. 1780-90, England

Nathaniel H. Hill, 1825 - 1879

Pietro Pao Viselli b.~ 1830 Strangolagalli, Italy


George Washington Hill


John M Hill , b1819 Darlington SC

----------


## Huracan

> yes it is blurry
> 
> I think you have my notes of some of these people I gathered....but here again
> 
> David A. Hill b.1850 and d 1885 ....ftdna of 0 for me .................ancestor from Scotland ................horse traders for the confederacy
> 
> Reddick Knox ......ftdna ) for me ....................ancestor from Hesse Germany , original surname Radich ( after radish )
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I compiled the members of CTS54 and downstream from the T group on FTDNA that had 37 or more markers tested. I also used info that you provided earlier here, thanks.

----------


## torzio

> Attachment 12523
> Last part: the rest of Z19945 (not including CTS1848) showing BY143483, the Ashkenazi group (PAGES00113) and the Brooks/Curtiss group



so where do I fit in...this one is very blurry

maybe you can send me this attachment and I will see what I can do

----------


## torzio

> Yes I compiled the members of CTS54 and downstream from the T group on FTDNA that had 37 or more markers tested. I also used info that you provided earlier here, thanks.


A few I left out ...............ftdna of 0 from me 

Carmine Anthony Di Chiara


Timothy Brennan T-CTS8862


Richard A. Crump



Enoch Dewey Schales


and 1 x ftdna of 1 from me

Romanel T-CTS8862 from Rimini ( run by Bowen family )

----------


## Huracan

> so where do I fit in...this one is very blurry
> 
> maybe you can send me this attachment and I will see what I can do


Screen Shot 2021-01-04 at 8.24.32 PM.jpg

The predicted tree gives an estimate of 3,000 ybp for BY143483 and also for SK1480

----------


## Salento

> Screen Shot 2021-01-04 at 8.24.32 PM.jpg
> 
> The predicted tree gives an estimate of 3,000 ybp for BY143483 and also for SK1480


Thanks Huracan,

1050 BC

----------


## torzio

> Screen Shot 2021-01-04 at 8.24.32 PM.jpg
> 
> The predicted tree gives an estimate of 3,000 ybp for BY143483 and also for SK1480



Thanks much appreciated

do you have these 2 below in your charts.......both belong to our T1a2 branch

E4623 ........... 
Ulrich Blarer b about 1190 and d 1242 .............Sankt Gallen.........
Switzerland




...........T-CTS933










183663.......
Giovanni ERSPAMER, .b. 1704 ......(Malosco, Italy)
........Italy
 ..........T-L446

----------


## Huracan

> Thanks much appreciated
> 
> do you have these 2 below in your charts.......both belong to our T1a2 branch
> 
> E4623 ...........
> Ulrich Blarer b about 1190 and d 1242 .............Sankt Gallen.........
> Switzerland
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yes I forgot to add Erspamer since this line matches the Sardinian on YFull, correct? That makes him BY143483+. I shall add him and update the phylogeny.

I see Blarer is CTS933+ but do we know if he matches more downstream? Or any confirmation that he falls in our line (which SNP?)

----------


## torzio

> Oh yes I forgot to add Erspamer since this line matches the Sardinian on YFull, correct? That makes him BY143483+. I shall add him and update the phylogeny.
> 
> I see Blarer is CTS933+ but do we know if he matches more downstream? Or any confirmation that he falls in our line (which SNP?)


I will check what I can find about Blarer

Erspamer has there ftdna site
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ct/dna-results

his ancestors are in this link

http://valdinonusa.com/search.php?my...als&mybool=AND

----------


## torzio

I will keep looking for Blarer

https://gw.geneanet.org/aeswal?lang=...&n=blarer&oc=2

he was well documented

----------


## torzio

new T tree a few hours ago

----------


## Salento

SK1480 breed is so rare, that we don't even make the updated list :) 

R1b did his job well, though they missed some of us.

I understand tha SK.... = a Scandinavian lab, but Yfull has also FT and others in the tree.

----------


## torzio

> SK1480 breed is so rare, that we don't even make the updated list :) 
> 
> R1b did his job well, though they missed some of us.
> 
> I understand tha SK.... = a Scandinavian lab, but Yfull has also FT and others in the tree.



SK stands for StoneKing ( Mark )

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...e=Y&snp=SK1480

yfull will not change me to this snp as they did 3 reads and I got it once ...........but they have ticked it off as yes for me ................I think they want to wait on more people to test

----------


## torzio

Reddick ...........T ydna


*Reddicks are German in origin, having had the surname recorded as Radick upon arrival in Savannah, GA in 1737. Back in the Odenwald region of southwest Germany the name had been Rettich / Rettig and a century earlier the family was named Retgen. Rettich is German for the vegetable radish. My suspicion is that the surname changed with circumstances - either a move to where there were already Rettich / Rettig folks residing or else when my Retgen ancestors perhaps took up radish farming.......*.info from Reddick site owner

new news, associated with the above.............
Johannes Rettich was born in Gadernheim, Reichenbach Parish, in 1701. He married Maria Barbara Wolff circa January, 1724. 

other family members live in Erbach-Schonberg Hesse Germany

Ftdna distance of Reddick T ydna from myself is zero

odd is that the Wolff surname in the same area is also T ydna , but shows as distance of 1 from myself

----------


## Huracan

> Reddick ...........T ydna
> 
> 
> *Reddicks are German in origin, having had the surname recorded as Radick upon arrival in Savannah, GA in 1737. Back in the Odenwald region of southwest Germany the name had been Rettich / Rettig and a century earlier the family was named Retgen. Rettich is German for the vegetable radish. My suspicion is that the surname changed with circumstances - either a move to where there were already Rettich / Rettig folks residing or else when my Retgen ancestors perhaps took up radish farming.......*.info from Reddick site owner
> 
> new news, associated with the above.............
> Johannes Rettich was born in Gadernheim, Reichenbach Parish, in 1701. He married Maria Barbara Wolff circa January, 1724. 
> 
> other family members live in Erbach-Schonberg Hesse Germany
> ...


Is Reddick in the T project?

----------


## torzio

> Is Reddick in the T project?



Kit # 51824 ............hes been with ftdna since 2012

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

father of Johannes is ( johannes died in Georgia USA )

Peter Rettich

Birth
Nov 1678 Germany

Death
Circa 1750 Germany



mother is 

Anna Elisabeth Rettich (born Wiener)

Birth
July 14 1678 Gadernheim, Bergstrasse, Hessen, D

Death
1749



https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/g...wig/I52703.php

----------


## Huracan

> Kit # 51824 ............hes been with ftdna since 2012
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
> 
> father of Johannes is ( johannes died in Georgia USA )
> 
> Peter Rettich
> 
> Birth
> ...


Only has 12 markers unfortunately.

----------


## torzio

what is confusing is that this line has 

James Knox Reddick
Circa 1850

who married susan Robinson




................................

earliest from this line is

Hans Jacob Reddick
1617 , Erbach-Schonberg area

----------


## Huracan

> note that Brooks ( ancient surname was Brucke from Hanover germany ) and Curtiss are related back via 4 generations back and both are related the the frush and Froshour , German family line
> 
> I am split further apart from yourself with a pomerian Pole and an ancient Sardo/Trentino sample ........but the pole and I share links with the Brooks, Curtiss, Frush and Froshour family tree
> The pole closer to them than myself by 2 extra snp's


Online genealogies show the Curtiss line (BY64684+ kits 920992 and 116079) go back to 1400s Essex, England. Their FTDNA family tree also says the same. I did not see any connection to the Brooks or German lines 4 generations back as mentioned.

http://www.ginaology.com/rootsperson...daniel-curtis/
https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person...urtiss_%281%29
https://ancestors.familysearch.org/e...tiss-1695-1763

----------


## torzio

> Online genealogies show the Curtiss line (BY64684+ kits 920992 and 116079) go back to 1400s Essex, England. Their FTDNA family tree also says the same. I did not see any connection to the Brooks or German lines 4 generations back as mentioned.
> 
> http://www.ginaology.com/rootsperson...daniel-curtis/
> https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person...urtiss_%281%29
> https://ancestors.familysearch.org/e...tiss-1695-1763


thanks

Curtiss is linked with this German line

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults


and is 4 generations removed from the brooks line ......................I think I already linked the conversation with the woman running both Brooks and Curtiss ...........I will recheck in facebook

----------


## Huracan

> thanks
> 
> Curtiss is linked with this German line
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> 
> 
> and is 4 generations removed from the brooks line ......................I think I already linked the conversation with the woman running both Brooks and Curtiss ...........I will recheck in facebook


Yes thanks I would like to know any confirming information since everything else says otherwise.

----------


## torzio

T1a2-CTS9882

from Karen...........So far this is the most distant direct paternal ancestor, that I can verify. Anders Elofsson, born May 30th, 1740. Bortan, Varmland, Sweden. 

Died May 31st, 1783 Gunnerskog, Varmland, Sweden. 
This match absolutly close to one of our T members:
IN45906 Olof Assgärdsson, b. abt. 1555 in Treskog, Gunnarskog, Värmland

----------


## torzio

> Yes thanks I would like to know any confirming information since everything else says otherwise.



both are together here

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

BTW...the Pole from Pomerania which matches me in yfull has more snp matches with Brooks than what I have
Pomerania has visibly different distribution of some clades of Polish DNA and higher Germanic (Ostsiedlung) influence

----------


## torzio

https://www.tributaries.info/p2539.htm


I wrote to the person who manages the family tree

----------


## Huracan

> https://www.tributaries.info/p2539.htm
> 
> 
> I wrote to the person who manages the family tree


So the Brooks and Curtiss lines are linked via Brücke from Hanover, Germany and they are also linked to the Frush/Froschauer line which states origin from Rhineland-Pfalz, but the FTDNA project shows how descendants have different Y-DNA... 

Regardless, Brooks, Curtiss, and Frush/Froschauer are closely related in terms of STRs and all should be BY64684+. FTDNA has Brooks being FT126500 which the FTDNA haplotree has as downstream of BY64684.

----------


## torzio

> So the Brooks and Curtiss lines are linked via Brücke from Hanover, Germany and they are also linked to the Frush/Froschauer line which states origin from Rhineland-Pfalz, but the FTDNA project shows how descendants have different Y-DNA... 
> 
> Regardless, Brooks, Curtiss, and Frush/Froschauer are closely related in terms of STRs and all should be BY64684+. FTDNA has Brooks being FT126500 which the FTDNA haplotree has as downstream of BY64684.



What do you mean by ...different ydna ?

They are all T1a2 branch ....our branch

you mentioned in 2014 , you are linked with them https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post435157

----------


## torzio

frush chart is in this link

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post592629

----------


## torzio

@Huracan
What I got from administrator of Ysearch in mid 2012 .................yoou can see Reddick on the list ...............pity Ftdna closed down Ysearch

*
These are the people closest to you on Ysearch and of course Dalessio is the closest:

3THJ8 Jones Unknown 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 17 9 9 11 12 26 15 19 32 11 11 15 16 10 10 23 25 16 13 17 18 32 33 14 9

4MNH3 Schales Germany 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 26 15 20 33 11 15 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 17 17 34 34 14 9

CXMD6 Mozet Martin, Slovenia 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30

R4VSF Reddick Florida, USA 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30

TB9PE Benedetto Bari, Italy 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 8 9 11 12 26 15 19 33 11 11 15 16 10 12 23 24 16 13 18 17 34 34 13 9


YSU4S Dalessio Selerno, Italy 
13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 16 9 9 11 12 27 15 19 35 11 11 15 16 10 11 23 25 16 13 19 16 34 34 14 9 12 11 15 11 8 17 17 8 11 10 8 12 11 20 20 17 10 12 12 15 8 26 21 11 12 14 10 11 12 11

It seems to me clear an expansion from the "Italian Refugium" Northwards as I think having demonstrated for other Y and mt haplogroups. Big Y or Full Y could say how old is this subclade of T-L446, i.e. if this haplogroup was in Italy many thousands of years ago or more recently. From this we'll be able to understand also the ethnic origin of this ancestor.

*
*we don't know how really close they are to you, but amongst the people with at least 37 markers we can see that Dalessio is the closest to you in many markers and above all in DYS447: you have 28, Dalessio 27 and all the Northern Europeans 26. This is an important markers and clearly you are very close to Dalessio. Beyond this Italians are a little tested as to Central Europeans and above all the people from the Isles 

*
*It seems that your T is in Europe from at least 6800 years: From Western Black Sea area.

*

----------


## torzio

> @Huracan
> What I got from administrator of Ysearch in mid 2012 .................yoou can see Reddick on the list ...............pity Ftdna closed down Ysearch
> 
> *
> These are the people closest to you on Ysearch and of course Dalessio is the closest:
> 
> 3THJ8 Jones Unknown 
> 13 22 13 10 13 13 11 12 11 14 13 30 17 9 9 11 12 26 15 19 32 11 11 15 16 10 10 23 25 16 13 17 18 32 33 14 9
> 
> ...



again from administrator ..................i forgot he states I am a Ladin from Italian Alps

*About Dalessio there are two accounts on Ysearch: YSU4S and TTAWM. The contact person is always Carol Jacob. You may write her through Ysearch.
Of course she is probably an American and makes many mistakes:
1) the ancestors are one time "Ales Dalessio" with some variance in the surname: Delessio and D'Alessio"
2) The dates of birth and death 1995 (evidently for 1895) and 1968
3) The town of origin "Selerno" is very likely "Salerno" with an American pronunciation.
Everything is in favor of a D'Alessio from Salerno. This haplotype is diffused everywhere in Italy and very likely is here from many thousands of years. Beyond this your haplotype, even though certainly belonging to the same cluster, may be separated from thousands of years, that only a Big Y or a Full Genome could specify.

Your origin are very likely in that Ladin speaking region we spoke about elsewhere about the Niederstaetter's paper. Perhaps in the future I'll be able to say where this haplogroup was many thousands of years ago. 

*
I do currently have a myheritage connection with a D'Alessio , but she states here original surname was Di Lessio and came from Caorle on the coast

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caorle

----------


## Huracan

> What do you mean by ...different ydna ?
> 
> They are all T1a2 branch ....our branch
> 
> you mentioned in 2014 , you are linked with them https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post435157


The Freshour project background mentions three sons of Johann Georg Froschauer: Wendel, Georg, and John. The results page shows each son's descendants being of different Y-DNA (Wendel I-M170, John I-M223, Georg T-M70 [aka BY64684], and another named Jacob R-PH4276) so I'm having trouble connecting them all to the same father.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results

Instead, I think they were just"categorized" like that and could be unrelated but just have the same surname or its variations. For my organizational purposes in creating the Y-STR phylogenies, I'll accept it as is and list the Frush/Froshour men as BY64684+ and hailing from Germany.

----------


## torzio

> The Freshour project background mentions three sons of Johann Georg Froschauer: Wendel, Georg, and John. The results page shows each son's descendants being of different Y-DNA (Wendel I-M170, John I-M223, Georg T-M70 [aka BY64684], and another named Jacob R-PH4276) so I'm having trouble connecting them all to the same father.
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results
> 
> Instead, I think they were just"categorized" like that and could be unrelated but just have the same surname or its variations. For my organizational purposes in creating the Y-STR phylogenies, I'll accept it as is and list the Frush/Froshour men as BY64684+ and hailing from Germany.





You do know that all the Frush people listed above has your snp of CTS1848 ...............which makes you closer to them , than myself

----------


## Huracan

> You do know that all the Frush people listed above has your snp of CTS1848 ...............which makes you closer to them , than myself


Interesting I thought they were BY64684?

Also, Hulpeau from Belgium tested Z19950+

Gamma-1.1-D T-CTS1848 (confirmed/predicted)

327403
Jean Hulpeau, b. 1509 and d. 1589
Belgium
T-Z19950

----------


## torzio

> Interesting I thought they were BY64684?
> 
> Also, Hulpeau from Belgium tested Z19950+
> 
> Gamma-1.1-D T-CTS1848 (confirmed/predicted)
> 
> 327403
> Jean Hulpeau, b. 1509 and d. 1589
> Belgium
> T-Z19950


 id:YF78879 BEL [BE-WHT]wln (Matt Verona)
id:YF79187 BEL [BE-WHT]wln (Francisco Bernot)
id:YF79186 BEL [BE-WHT]wln (Paulino Bernot)
id:YF67318 BEL [BE-WHT]wln (Ed Bernot)
and 
Jean Tillieux.........T-Z19950 > T-CTS1848>T-Z19945>T-CTS8862>etc.>T-CTS933>Y6055>T-L446>T-L131 Jean Tillieux/Belgium.. <<<<<<<< same as Jean Halpeau

All of these have your CTS1848 marker

----------


## Huracan

Guess I was confused. I remember you saying the Brooks and Curtiss lines were related to Frush/Froschauer lines but if Frush is CTS1848 then they aren't closely related to the Brucke/Brooks/Curtiss. Will correct in my STR list and phylogeny.

----------


## torzio

> Guess I was confused. I remember you saying the Brooks and Curtiss lines were related to Frush/Froschauer lines but if Frush is CTS1848 then they aren't closely related to the Brucke/Brooks/Curtiss. Will correct in my STR list and phylogeny.


your group has Curtiss , Brooks and Frush lines and are shown *Positive for CTS1848* regardless of what marker they are now, You are CTS1848 positive, does not matter what marker you end up in the future.



my group is *Negative for CTS1848* , .........this group has Italian, Dutch, German, Poles, Scots ( Hill line, both carolina states in USA )


We are all positive for the group Z19945 .............but our branches split, either having positive CTS2214 or negative

----------


## Huracan

> your group has Curtiss , Brooks and Frush lines and are shown *Positive for CTS1848* regardless of what marker they are now, You are CTS1848 positive, does not matter what marker you end up in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> my group is *Negative for CTS1848* , .........this group has Italian, Dutch, German, Poles, Scots ( Hill line, both carolina states in USA )
> 
> 
> We are all positive for the group Z19945 .............but our branches split, either having positive CTS2214 or negative


Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 11.43.11 AM.jpg

Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 11.45.39 AM.jpg

We're all Z19945 but the Brooks and Curtiss lines are not CTS1848

----------


## torzio

> Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 11.43.11 AM.jpg
> 
> Screen Shot 2021-02-09 at 11.45.39 AM.jpg
> 
> We're all Z19945 but the Brooks and Curtiss lines are not CTS1848



These charts are not accurate ............eg in my SNP report I show that I am not even tested for CTS1848 , salento shows he is negative, Caquelin shows Positive, Halpeau shows positive, Vironet shows as positive, 

Daniel Curtiss only shows as not being tested for it ...page 6

Salento on page 11 shows Negative

yourself on page 9 shows positive

this kit MI59655 shows positive

Sizemore shows negative

All 3 Bernot show positive

All the Knox kits, not tested for CTS1848

Laurent shows positive ...page 2

I went through all 76 pages and could not find Brooks

to conclude ..............ignore the tree you presented as it seems to be based on an incomplete SNP kit trees

----------


## torzio

In the block tree in ftdna it shows all of these branches has CTS1848



so, I would not count the tree as being accurate in ftdna

----------


## Huracan

> In the block tree in ftdna it shows all of these branches has CTS1848
> 
> 
> 
> so, I would not count the tree as being accurate in ftdna


Thank you for this. Where can I access the block tree?

----------


## torzio

> Thank you for this. Where can I access the block tree?



You get access to block tree once you do BigY

----------


## Salento

... sharing again since I was mentioned :) 

Z19945 +
A15857 / CTS1848 -
BY143483 +
SK1480 +

----------


## Duarte

FTDNA yDNA T haplotree:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/T

----------


## torzio

> ... sharing again since I was mentioned :) 
> 
> Z19945 +
> A15857 / CTS1848 -
> BY143483 +
> SK1480 +



while under SNP area , your CTS1848 had negative ...................mine had nothing on CTS1848, i needed to go to BigY and below is my snippet




clearly ftdna snp markers and their trees , be it BigY or not are not in synch

----------


## Salento

> while under SNP area , your CTS1848 had negative ...................mine had nothing on CTS1848, i needed to go to BigY and below is my snippet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> clearly ftdna snp markers and their trees , be it BigY or not are not in synch


 I tested CTS1848 with FTDNA and Yseq (both negative), so that’s settled ...

----------


## torzio

I have a paternal match as a 3rd-5th cousin with a person named
Ronald William Toigo

issue is , *ftdna notes his ydna as L-M20*

I cannot find his kit # .............any ideas would help


Many Toigo families come from Fanzaso town of Belluno province Veneto , other surnames that match with me from there are the Cemin family

----------


## Mr. T

Y Haplogroup T Ancient samples in timeline order. Any additional samples please forward me

India Roopkund Lake B ( 150 yBP )
I3403 ( 147 ± 92 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1b-Y21207
mtDNA: X2d

Lebanon Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
SI-42
Y-DNA: T1a - M70
mtDNA: J1b1a

Sweden Varnhem ( 950 yBP - Viking Age )
VK398
Y-DNA: T1a1b2a
mtDNA: H1b1+16362

Russia near Finland Ladoga Varangians ( 950 yBP - Viking Age )
VK17
Y-DNA: T1a1a1
mtDNA: U5a2a1b

Italy near France Collegno ( 1350 yBP - Early Medieval ) Longobard Period
CL23 
Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1 - CTS6071
mtDNA: H

Hungary Szólád ( Early Medieval ) Lombard Period no carbon date
SZ36
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a1a2b2 - PF7275
mtDNA: U4c2a

Lebanon Qornet ed-Deir ( 1794 yBP - Roman )
QED-2
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2b2b1a - P77
mtDNA: T1

Kazakhstan Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju )
DA125 ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a1-Y13279
mtDNA: U2e2a1

Israel Tel Abel Beth Maccah
I2201, Iron Age, 1011-846 calBCE
I2201
mtDNA: X2
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a2 - CTS6280

Turkmenistan Gonur Depe ( 3600 yBP - Bronze Age ) Bactria Margiana (BMAC)
I1781 ( 3550 ± 30 yBP / 3841 yBP )
Y-DNA: T-M184 
mtDNA: T1a1q

Israel Tel Megiddo
Middle-Late Bronze Age, 1971-1278 calBCE
I4518
mtDNA: HV2a1
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214

Syria Alalakh site
Middle-Late Bronze Age, 2111-1303 BC
ALA015
mtDNA: K1a
Y-DNA: T1a1a - L208

Syria Elba site
Middle Bronze Age I(Eblaite), 2000-1800 BCE
ETM026
mtDNA: K1a4
Y-DNA: T1a1 - L162

Iran Tepe Hissar C (4100 yBP- Bronze Age) Tepe Hissar Culture
I2514 ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a-Y13284
mtDNA: W3b

I2512 ( 4265 ± 25 yBP / 4846 yBP )
Y-DNA: T-M184 
mtDNA: HV / HV9

Morocco Kehf-el-Baroud ( 4950 yBP - Late Neolithic )
( 4940 ± 30 yBP ) other: 5565 ± 65 yBP
KEB.6
Y-DNA: T1a1a - L162
mtDNA: K1a4a1

Russia Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture
IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1 -CTS6004 probablyT1a2a-Y8614
mtDNA: X1'2'3

Israel Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic ) 9 Samples !! ! Most ever found in one place and 4th oldest samples
I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: K1a

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: N1a1b

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’

I1166
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: H

I1170
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: T1a2

I1172
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: K1a

I1178
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: I6

I1180
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: T

I1187
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: U6d
Peqi'in Cave atDNA notes: Northern origin. They also carry the WHG G allele for Blue eyes at Rs12913832.

Bulgaria Varna (6500 yBP-Chalcolithic) Varna Culture
ANI152
Y-DNA: T-Y3804 (x T1-Y3813)
mtDNA: U2

Germany Karsdorf ( 7100yBP - Early Neolithic ) LBK Culture
I0795 
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: H1 or H1au1b*

I0797 
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: H46b

Kars537 ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: J1c6a

Bulgaria Malak Preslavets ( 7600yBP - Mesolithic/Early Neolithic ) Criș Culture
I0700
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e

I1108
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e

Jordan 'Ain Ghazal ( 9600 yBP - Early Neolithic ) Late Middle PPNB ( 9573 ± 39 yBP )
Oldest Haplogroup T sample on record
I1707
Y-DNA: T1a - M70
mtDNA: R0a
Oldest Haplogroup T sample ever found

----------


## torzio

> Y Haplogroup T Ancient samples in timeline order. Any additional samples please forward me
> India Roopkund Lake B ( 150 yBP )
> I3403 ( 147 ± 92 yBP )
> Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1b-Y21207
> mtDNA: X2d
> Lebanon Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
> SI-42
> Y-DNA: T1a - M70
> mtDNA: J1b1a
> ...




I will get back to you

seems like you are using the older version of the branches of T

T1a1a = T1a1

T1a1b = T1a2

T1a2a = T1a3 

pity there are 2 different system running for T ydna in the world of testing

----------


## Mr. T

> I will get back to you
> 
> seems like you are using the older version of the branches of T
> 
> T1a1a = T1a1
> 
> T1a1b = T1a2
> 
> T1a2a = T1a3 
> ...


Thanks, yeah.. it's a little confusing .. I looked on isogg and apparently there was a change from 2015 to 2016 for example T1a1a1a (Z709) became T1a1a1b2b

----------


## torzio

> Thanks, yeah.. it's a little confusing .. I looked on isogg and apparently there was a change from 2015 to 2016 for example T1a1a1a (Z709) became T1a1a1b2b



T was called K2 in 2008 and earlier

----------


## torzio

New T1a2-BY60539

Johann Christoph Gräßer is born in 1750 at Gräfenroda, Thüringen. His father and grandfather were from Holzhausen and Alkersleben
Mtdna = K1a2b


Exact same marker as Christopher Kile, 1747 - 1795

----------


## Huracan

Does anyone know about these two kits in our grouping of the FTDNA T Project?

IN90821 - no info listed. Placed between Laurent and Hulpeau, guessing it could be Z19950+ or even BY160604+

562486 - no info listed. Placed in the Bernot cluster, guessing it could be FT158444/BY71340+ and maybe another Bernot that tested

----------


## torzio

> Does anyone know about these two kits in our grouping of the FTDNA T Project?
> 
> IN90821 - no info listed. Placed between Laurent and Hulpeau, guessing it could be Z19950+ or even BY160604+
> 
> 562486 - no info listed. Placed in the Bernot cluster, guessing it could be FT158444/BY71340+ and maybe another Bernot that tested



Hulpeau iirc is a french hugenout from Lorraine France...

Laurent has been chatting in ftdna T and is in here somewhere, she wrote for her brother.....

Bernot samples are .............Edwardo Bernot and his cousins, Paulino and Francisco .....

Vironet is surname Verona now, as Vironet is a fabricated orphanage name .......matching another T-Z19950 surname Tilleaux Namur.Belgium

562486 iirc is via Verona and linked with
Erspamer, Baltasare Giovanni (1704 - ) - male b. 4 Feb 1704 father: Erspamer, Giovanni (b1671 - ) mother: Grumer, Dorotea (~1674 - )

I need to reconfirm a few of these,

----------


## torzio

other T1a2

Cristoforo Iacobini (16th century, near Rome, Italy).

----------


## torzio

Another 1 step away match with myself in ftdna

Another Hill surname

Isaac Hill Sr.
b. 22 Jul 1748 - St. Mary's County, Province of Maryland
d. 29 Jul 1825 - Hill Trace, Warren County, Tennessee, United States

----------


## torzio

running through old Ysearch matches for me from 2014-2018

so, far 6 matches from ysearch also appear for me in ftdna

missing are ( bold surnames ) who are same step match as myself

Frederich Wilhelm *Ahmann* and Marie Bernadine Elisabeth Ahmann (born Steinigeweg). Frederich was born on March 20 1830, in Lienen, Tecklenburg, Prussia.
Marie was born on January 8 1837, in Lienen, Tecklenburg, Prussia.



Filippo _Lippi  16th century from Arezzo italy .....................also matched me in the Sorenson program


_
*Teaford* married a Catherine Runkle ........................from Nancy France

----------


## torzio

Yfull still do not use SK1480 , even though I have it and am positive for it

they did recently add these for me as 5-stars 
CTS11819 • PF2766 • M3761


noted from this area
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satsurblia_Cave

so I still sit under
T-BY143483

but ftdna has me one lower at T-SK1480

----------


## torzio

recent Ydna match with me


surname 
*Kerschbaumer*from.....Frangart, Eppan, Tirol, Österreich


have asked the family to do a dna test 

I really don't know how 23andme find these Ydna matches ? ................very odd

----------


## torzio

@Salento

interesting is that in *Ftdna advanced matches*, yourself, myself and the Pole have zero differences in the STR's 

and , our closest relatives in ftdna is the Brooks, Curtiss people who come from the Frush T1a2-CTS933 group ( around , southern old east-germany ) ......the Frush are linked to the Froschauer group ( sometimes called Freshour )

contacting a person from the group stated the most common link via surname is with ( *speculation I think, but might have some value* ) 
Fusar is probably from Trieste,
Fusari seems to have more in Lombardy, Verona and Vicenza, Emilia and Romagna, Ancona and Aquila.
Fusarri, extremely rare, is also Lombard, Milanese and Bergamo area.
Fusaro is present between Lombardy, Veneto, Piedmont and Liguria, but the main nucleuses are in the southern peninsular, Fusaroli is specific to Cesena and Cesenatico and Ravenna.
Fuser is in the area between Venice and Treviso

I do have family ties with the Fuser who are from Istrana

----------


## Salento

> @Salento
> 
> interesting is that in *Ftdna advanced matches*, yourself, myself and the Pole have zero differences in the STR's 
> 
> and , our closest relatives in ftdna is the Brooks, Curtiss people who come from the Frush T1a2-CTS933 group ( around , southern old east-germany ) ......the Frush are linked to the Froschauer group ( sometimes called Freshour )
> 
> contacting a person from the group stated the most common link via surname is with ( *speculation I think, but might have some value* ) 
> Fusar is probably from Trieste,
> Fusari seems to have more in Lombardy, Verona and Vicenza, Emilia and Romagna, Ancona and Aquila.
> ...


… cool, the Brooks and the Curtiss are Colonial Era y T :

John/1f Brooks, b a1640-d 1695 Stratford, CT USA

Daniel Curtiss b.1695 Stratford CT USA

Daniel CURTISS b.1652 - Stratford, CT USA

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

----------


## torzio

Interesting chit chat in ftdna on T-CTS1848

3 new members

Hulpeau b. 1509 Belgium .............origins Flanders

Richtera ......Czech

Hortvik.....Czech b. 1615


@salento.....I don't know what it means for us as we are negative for CTS1848.............but it is below us in our branch

----------


## torzio

@salento 

More T1a2 ydna ................look like a younger branch .................Fischer family , 7 in number

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

one has a gedmatch #

----------


## Salento

> @salento 
> 
> More T1a2 ydna ................look like a younger branch .................Fischer family , 7 in number
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> 
> one has a gedmatch #


@Torzio … distant MRCA, … see settings, … he matches the Germans, so he's probably closer to you.

----------


## torzio

> I will check what I can find about Blarer
> 
> Erspamer has there ftdna site
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ct/dna-results
> 
> his ancestors are in this link
> 
> http://valdinonusa.com/search.php?my...als&mybool=AND


I am not connected with this erspamer ( above ) unless they are cousins ............I cannot work it out

I was sent this information on my link with the Erspamer 

Giovanni Giuseppe b. 1826 ...............with my line ....her ( Maddalena ) grandfather married a Miotto while my line was with his first wife which was a Robazza
Giovanni b.1793 ..........Marianna Sartor
Gasparo b.1741 .........Maria Targher
Gasparo b. 1712 ..........Angela Rech
Leonardo b. 1673 .........Apolloina Rella
Antonio b. 1640 ............Barbara Port
Leonardo b. 1614 ...........Brigida Trette
Antonio b. 1582 ...........Cattarina Rolle

----------


## torzio

> I am not connected with this erspamer ( above ) unless they are cousins ............I cannot work it out
> 
> I was sent this information on my link with the Erspamer 
> 
> Giovanni Giuseppe b. 1826 ...............with my line ....her ( Maddalena ) grandfather married a Miotto while my line was with his first wife which was a Robazza
> Giovanni b.1793 ..........Marianna Sartor
> Gasparo b.1741 .........Maria Targher
> Gasparo b. 1712 ..........Angela Rech
> Leonardo b. 1673 .........Apolloina Rella
> ...



Sartor is the venetian word for tailor
gher is a typical friuli surname ending............same as net and others
Rech is found from Trentino to Venice over many centuries
Rella is typical pugliese surname
Port , only found in trentino
Rolle.....from Piedmont to trentino
the others I will check

----------


## Salento

…. ‘sarto’ is the general term for ‘taylor’ in Italian too :)

Rollo (Rella in Northern Italy) … is mainly a Salentina Peninsula surname.
I know many ‘Rollo’ in my town.

https://www.cognomix.it/origine-cognome/rollo.php

----------


## torzio

> …. ‘sarto’ is the general term for ‘taylor’ in Italian too :)
> 
> Rollo (Rella in Northern Italy) … is mainly a Salentina Peninsula surname.
> I know many ‘Rollo’ in my town.
> 
> https://www.cognomix.it/origine-cognome/rollo.php



ok but her surname was Rella .............bulk is found in Puglia and some in Trentino and other places...check below

https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...italiani/RELLA

----------


## Salento

> ok but her surname was Rella .............bulk is found in Puglia and some in Trentino and other places...check below
> 
> https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...italiani/RELLA


Rella / Rollo - Potayto / Potahto  :Smiling:  

… the majority of the Rella are in Puglia, and the majority of the Rollo are in Salento, … and as you know Salento is part of Puglia.

----------


## torzio

> Rella / Rollo - Potayto / Potahto  
> 
> … the majority of the Rella are in Puglia, and the majority of the Rollo are in Salento, … and as you know Salento is part of Puglia.



ok ................scribes can make many errors or names are changed slightly from one family to another

----------


## torzio

@Salento

I have a new ftdna T person , genetic distance 0 ................surname* Gue*  ..............do you have this as well?

found a link to the ancestors

Francesco b.1883 in Italy

father is Alfonso b.1853 in Italy ............wife is surname Galen


not sure , but could be from Foggia Italy ...............but Galen is a Veneto surname

..................................
Also found in Taggia, Liguria 

.............................................
further history states oldest Gue is from Brittany France circa 1450

----------


## Salento

> @Salento
> 
> I have a new ftdna T person , genetic distance 0 ................surname* Gue*  ..............do you have this as well?
> 
> found a link to the ancestors
> 
> Francesco b.1883 in Italy
> 
> father is Alfonso b.1853 in Italy ............wife is surname Galen
> ...


I don’t see any Gue / Galen, though I did find a Sartori. Maybe related to your Sartor.

----------


## torzio

> I don’t see any Gue / Galen, though I did find a Sartori. Maybe related to your Sartor.


just found out that Gue is his adoptive surname ....the person was born as a Dobson

----------


## torzio

> just found out that Gue is his adoptive surname ....the person was born as a Dobson



I have written to Ken and found his grandfather was named Aefria/o ( b 1863 ) which is an italian christian name................Dobson could be a name used for when he migrated to USA ..............Aefria wife was name marie( b. 1875 ) Kamprich and was born in Germany

----------


## torzio

with the new ftdna matching system, I got my 3rd.... L-M20 match on my paternal side ......must be a marriage/s some where ............they all originate in Trentino or Vincenza province of Veneto

so the surnames in question are

Corse
Rentenbach
Cielo
Toigo

Another L ydna is surnamed Bergamo .......I am chatting with him ATM

----------


## torzio

my map from myheritage



I have been in contact with a German recently in trying to find a link in the map for me.

I have found a link with 2 families from Pederobba , Veneto and a german family from Trier and westeldorf Germany ( same area on map) names H.Welend and wife C. Andries .............their line went back and forth between these areas plus switzerland.
Checking my DNA in myheritage, my line and father line share DNA segments from 8 families in the Pederobba town, in Veneto, Italy

This is all prior to the year 1780

----------


## torzio

After ftdna latest update ....the BigY for T-Z19945 has 17 branches coming out of it 

with only 18 members shown nationality and 5 unshown

most is 6 belgiums and next is 3 italians ...............only 1 non-european ..a Turk 

one of the Belgiums is the fabricated surname of vironet ........chat with ancestor Matt Verona for true ancestors...................they seem to be from Luoco friuli circa 1650

i am not sure on the accuracy of ftdna anymore

----------


## torzio

@salento

got a note from a Casto family from NZ who are T ydna ......noted as 3rd to 5th cousin with myself

they state
came to NZ from USA
in USA from 1775
In England prior to 1775

In Germany prior to UK circa 1600

origin of family is from Apulia Italy 



I checked today Casto surname in Apulia'
La distribuzione geografica del cognome *Casto* nella Regione Puglia

 Lecce x 180
Taranto x 14

 Foggia x 9


 Brindisi x 2

 Bari x 2

These are households and not individuals


You come across anything for this surname ?

----------


## torzio

Only other 80% plus DNA march is with a family from Lombardy surname *Corna* 

I asked them what their Ydna is if they have it

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> got a note from a Casto family from NZ who are T ydna ......noted as 3rd to 5th cousin with myself
> 
> they state
> came to NZ from USA
> in USA from 1775
> In England prior to 1775
> 
> ...


I don't know anyone by that surname.

If the family left Apulia in the 1600s, and the vast majority of the Casto reside in the province of Lecce, it is reasonable to assume that they’re Salentini.

----------


## torzio

> I have written to Ken and found his grandfather was named Aefria/o ( b 1863 ) which is an italian christian name................Dobson could be a name used for when he migrated to USA ..............Aefria wife was name marie( b. 1875 ) Kamprich and was born in Germany




Aefria E Dobson

Gender
Male

Birth
Jan 1863 Iowa, United States

Residence
1900 Precincts A & B, Seward, Nebraska, USA

Age
37

Marital status
Married

Marriage
Circa 1893

Race
White

Ethnicity
American

Wife
Mary Dobson

Children
Jesse Dobson
Herbert Dobson
Leslie Dobson

----------


## torzio

> Aefria E Dobson
> 
> Gender
> Male
> 
> Birth
> Jan 1863 Iowa, United States
> 
> Residence
> ...

----------


## torzio

> 



Leslie Nlysess Dodson 24/1/1900 to 12/3/1989 married Ventla ( born in Finland ) 

His father was dead by 1917 when leslie enlisted for WW1

the Gue seems to be the mother Ventla surname


This seems to be the end of my exact Ydna match with Kenneth Gue in ftdna

----------


## torzio

> Leslie Nlysess Dodson 24/1/1900 to 12/3/1989 married Ventla ( born in Finland ) 
> 
> father was dead by 1917 when leslie enlisted for WW1
> 
> the Gue seems to be the mother Ventla surname
> 
> 
> This seems to be the end of my exact Ydna match with Kenneth Gue in ftdna


Correction........Gue surname is an ancient french surname usually associated with the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine

*Gue Name Meaning*French (Gué): topographic name for someone who lived near a ford, from Old French wad ‘ford’, ‘crossing place’.

----------


## torzio

In yfull I have lost all STR matches except for ancestor of Matt Verona
Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, Mons, Belgium, d. 1874, Jumet, Belgium Belgium T-Y61337
the Y61337 is a new branch and moves the person away from the Bernot family
Nicolas Vironet is shown in the site, finding a grave and is noted that Vironet is a fabricated orphan surname

----------


## torzio

In Yfull a second Vironet is linked with my self

Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, Mons, Belgium, d. 1874, Jumet, Belgium Belgium *YF90988*

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...icolas-vironet

I have found that Vironet is a fabricated surname ...............but I have also found their is a set of identical DNA from a family with surname Bichot ...............they appear in 2 places ..............Burgundy France and the Catalan area next to the french border

the oldest is

family Bichot have been in Burgundy since 1350.

Burgundians lived in southern France pre 13th century 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Burgundy

----------


## Huracan

> In Yfull a second Vironet is linked with my self
> Nicolas Vironet, b. 1818, Mons, Belgium, d. 1874, Jumet, Belgium Belgium *YF90988*
> https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...icolas-vironet
> I have found that Vironet is a fabricated surname ...............but I have also found their is a set of identical DNA from a family with surname Bichot ...............they appear in 2 places ..............Burgundy France and the Catalan area next to the french border
> the oldest is
> family Bichot have been in Burgundy since 1350.
> Burgundians lived in southern France pre 13th century 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Burgundy


Where did you find these Bichot individuals? Are they on a site?

----------


## torzio

> Where did you find these Bichot individuals? Are they on a site?


Still checking out where this identical comes from 

But mr. Verona and I had a long chat ( messages yesterday ) and he states ..........part of a very long text

Marguerite FOURNIER abandoned Laurent's 2nd GGF, Jean Claude Fournier, at birth, in Paris, 1835.
Since she abandoned the baby at a hospice with no foundling wheel, she had to give her name, which was recorded.
We suspect that this lady abandoned my 2nd GGF, Nicolas Vironet, 17 years earlier, as a teenager.
I sent Laurent my spare Big Y-700 kit, a $450 early Christmas gift, LOL, so we can prove that we don't share the same 3rd GGF... if we have no Y-DNA match, then Marguerite is probably our MRCA.
We also found a solid triangulated match on chromosome 14 with some of the same Vironets from chromosome 7.
His name is Marcel Jacques Fournier, living in Felleries,
Marguerite FOURNIER wasn't married, and the father is unknown in the hospice records for Jean Claude.
So Jean Claude was given his mother's family name.
(Since Marguerite has a history of abandoning babies, I wouldn't be surprised if she was a French prostitute, lol)

So I am checking if Marguerite was impregnated by a Bichot

you need to check Geneanet for the Vironet and Fournier lines to make it clear

----------


## torzio

new snp tracker results

----------


## Salento

> new snp tracker results


It says: our “Final” common male ancestor dates back to anytime after 1800 AD,

… our line entered Italy around 1200 BC,
… new mutation in 330 AD (Roman Empire), and then again 200 years ago.

----------


## torzio

> It says: our “Final” common male ancestor dates back to anytime after 1800 AD,
> … our line entered Italy around 1200 BC,
> … new mutation in 330 AD (Roman Empire), and then again 200 years ago.


"entered italy around 1200BC" ....................fall of troy ................most likely as troy allies the Bithynian thracians ....................maybe next to the Mysians on the map

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians


I do not know about origin of SK1480 .................as my BDM records that I have, have my paternal family line from around 1400 AD in Val di Non Trentino

----------


## torzio

new members for myself my T-m70 in ftdna .................both 1 step away

Paternal: Hill King

Maternal: Hobert Lewis
Haplogroup
Y-DNAT-M70


......................................



Paternal: Isaac Milligan, b. 1810 and d. after 1880

Maternal: Not Provided
Haplogroup
Y-DNAT-M70

----------


## Salento

> "entered italy around 1200BC" ....................fall of troy ................most likely as troy allies the Bithynian thracians ....................maybe next to the Mysians on the map
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians
> I do not know about origin of SK1480 .................as my BDM records that I have, have my paternal family line from around 1400 AD in Val di Non Trentino


Let’s say for a moment that the _Tracker_ timeline is correct:

If the SK1480 mutation really occurred around 1800 AD, your 1400 AD y T ancestors were still BY143483,

… the SK1480 mutation originated from a descendant of that 1400 AD line, obviously.
( … assuming no male adoptions or stepsons)

… though I’m also SK1480, so all of this applies to me too :)

----------


## torzio

> Let’s say for a moment that the _Tracker_ timeline is correct:
> 
> If the SK1480 mutation really occurred around 1800 AD, your 1400 AD y T ancestors were still BY143483,
> 
> … the SK1480 mutation originated from a descendant of that 1400 AD line, obviously.
> ( … assuming no male adoptions or stepsons)
> 
> … though I’m also SK1480, so all of this applies to me too :)



so SK1480 occurred for us regardless of where our ancestors where ...............in the year in question , my line was in the ponzano and villorba areas of Veneto Italy............I can even tell you all their partners

no adoptions

----------


## torzio

> new members for myself my T-m70 in ftdna .................both 1 step away
> Paternal: Hill King
> Maternal: Hobert Lewis
> Haplogroup
> Y-DNAT-M70
> ......................................
> Paternal: Isaac Milligan, b. 1810 and d. after 1880
> Maternal: Not Provided
> Haplogroup
> Y-DNAT-M70



many T-M70 with the Hill surname ..............origins scottish.........migrated to USA initially to the 2 carolinas

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

and the milligan...not many

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## torzio

2 step from me

Ichabod Holbrook (1662 - 1718)
haplogroup T-FT346399, FTDNA kit #718133

Ezekiel Mann (1760 - aft. 1830) 
haplogroup T1a, FTDNA kit #312352

Roger Reffeild [uncertain] formerly Reffell aka Reffeld [uncertain]
Husband of Sarah Peter — married about 24 Dec 1687 in Wotton, Surrey, England
haplogroup T-M70, FTDNA kit #IN49944 

John Burroughs (1705 - 1791) 
haplogroup T-M70, FTDNA kit #182862

Michael Lemke (1766 - 1813)
Born 1766 in Groß Bellschwitz, Rosenberg, West Prussia, Prussia, Germany
haplogroup T-m70, FTDNA kit #B59853


seems very strange ...many from british isles and many appeared recently ( last 2 months )......maybe a change in ftdna programming

----------


## torzio

@salento....chatted with a Turk from Paphlagonia NW turkey......he states he is T1a2 ydna and linked with italians ............he claims the T for himself came out of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni

The guys other material is interesting...he states in one part
*Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.

"The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579]
*
*My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.*)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo

https://amp.en.google-info.in/381609...ariandyni.html


If you come across any T1a2 in yfull with a turkish flag let me now ..

----------


## Salento

OK, I’ll do that, … though if he’s linked to the Italians, it’s also feasible that he could have gotten his y T from the Romans.

----------


## Huracan

> @salento....chatted with a Turk from Paphlagonia NW turkey......he states he is T1a2 ydna and linked with italians ............he claims the T for himself came out of
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariandyni
> The guys other material is interesting...he states in one part
> *Here is a link and paragraph of a book of Phoenician settlements. As I mentioned above I mostly think that our T1a2b grandparents voyaged everywhere during Phonecian colonisations.
> "The further progress of the Phoenician settlements northward into the Propontis and the Euxine is a point whereon different opinions may be entertained. Pronectus, on the Bithynian, and Amastris, on the Paphlagonian coast, have been numbered among the colonies of the Phoenicians by some;[578] while others have gone so far as to ascribe to them the colonisation of the entire countries of Bithynia, Mariandynia, and Paphlagonia.[579]
> *
> *My father's hometown Devrek, whose ancient name is Dadybra (AD 300 - AD 640, is on a point between historical Paphlagonia and Mariandynia.*)
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...mariandyni-geo
> https://amp.en.google-info.in/381609...ariandyni.html
> If you come across any T1a2 in yfull with a turkish flag let me now ..


Speaking of Turkish T1a2, there is a *Turkish CTS1848+* individual on FTDNA that shows up on the general and Big Y trees but not in the T project. Have not been able to get any information on them.
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.15.05 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.15.58 PM.png

Genetic homeland shows a CTS1848 sample from Aydin, Turkey. The "DNA Project" link sends you to the Turkey FTDNA Project but I do not see any CTS1848 samples in their listing. The only T individual with STRs starting with 13-22 is #BP21018 from Hatay - they only have 12 STRs and are listed as T-M70 ... may not be related at all. 
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.09.26 PM.jpg

Would be interesting to find out more about them. Adds more to the story of non-European lines in our Y groups.

----------


## torzio

> Speaking of Turkish T1a2, there is a *Turkish CTS1848+* individual on FTDNA that shows up on the general and Big Y trees but not in the T project. Have not been able to get any information on them.
> Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.15.05 PM.png
> Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.15.58 PM.png
> Genetic homeland shows a CTS1848 sample from Aydin, Turkey. The "DNA Project" link sends you to the Turkey FTDNA Project but I do not see any CTS1848 samples in their listing. The only T individual with STRs starting with 13-22 is #BP21018 from Hatay - they only have 12 STRs and are listed as T-M70 ... may not be related at all. 
> Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 6.09.26 PM.jpg
> Would be interesting to find out more about them. Adds more to the story of non-European lines in our Y groups.


he is a bulgarian by ancestory
the person I spoke too comes from the black sea coast in turkey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphlagonia

----------


## torzio

@huracan

do you match any from post 994 ?

----------


## Huracan

> @huracan
> do you match any from post 994 ?


Nope. No changes in my Y matches on FTDNA in a long time.

----------


## torzio

> Nope. No changes in my Y matches on FTDNA in a long time.


thanks

you are 1 step from myself

Big Y STR Differences
26 of 587

....................

can you send me a test private message .............it has not worked for more than 4 months .................it does not work for any of my 4 ftdna projects either ...............i wonder if ftdna think gmail is a virus

----------


## torzio

@salento

I am awaiting 2 x new Yfull samples

YF95759 new T-Z19945*


YF96863 new T-CTS1848*

----------


## torzio

Found my Grand Est France link ..............via MyHeritage records ( site is getting more accurate )
Surname Bertazzon circa 17th century ( have a 2nd cousin today with that surname ...) went to ....Rémelfing, Moselle, Grand Est, France .....originally came from Pieve di Soligo, Veneto..........this man married a Cécile PISVIN
....but my marker transferred last week from Grant Est France ...to Saarland, Germany ( next door )

----------


## Salento

@Torzio 
officially there are only 3 of us … The Survivors :) 

Is there any of the people you posted around T_SK1480 ?

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> officially there are only 3 of us … The Survivors :) 
> 
> Is there any of the people you posted around T_SK1480 ?




I have done some checking around ...............and this is what I got....but I cannot confirmed

the top "new " is surname Curtiss belong to the Freshour ftdna group

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

all the T1a above belong to our T1a2 group



the second one is a dutch person

I would like to see if the second one belongs to Huracan

----------


## Salento

> I have done some checking around ...............and this is what I got....but I cannot confirmed
> the top "new " is surname Curtiss belong to the Freshour ftdna group
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> all the T1a above belong to our T1a2 group
> the second one is a dutch person
> I would like to see if the second one belongs to Huracan


Stratford CT (I know the town) was founded in 1639 by Puritan leaders, … (either 16 or 35 families), 
… Curtiss was born in 1652.
…. Many descendants of the original founding Puritan families remain in Stratford today after over 350 years; for centuries they often intermarried within the original small group of 17th century Pilgrim families.
… Some of the Stratford settlers were from families who had first moved from England to the Netherlands to seek religious freedom, like their predecessors on the Mayflower, and decided to come to the New World when their children began to adopt the Dutch culture and language …

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratford,_Connecticut

----------


## Huracan

> I have done some checking around ...............and this is what I got....but I cannot confirmed
> the top "new " is surname Curtiss belong to the Freshour ftdna group
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> all the T1a above belong to our T1a2 group
> the second one is a dutch person
> I would like to see if the second one belongs to Huracan


I'm already on YFull (#YF85080)

----------


## Daniil

Hello everyone! I got the result Big Y, T-BY28259, and on the ftdna tree I had created with someone a new branch under T-FTB28475. Can someone tell me more about my result please?my result is on yfull, my sample id:YF97436.
https://yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y21210/

----------


## torzio

> Hello everyone! I got the result Big Y, T-BY28259, and on the ftdna tree I had created with someone a new branch under T-FTB28475. Can someone tell me more about my result please?my result is on yfull, my sample id:YF97436.
> https://yfull.com/live/tree/T-Y21210/



you belong to the T1a2 branch

looking at your marker you sit with the ancient Viking sample VK398

*Sample: VK398 / Sweden_Skara 231
Location: Varnhem, Skara, Sweden
Age: Viking 10-12th centuries CE
Y-DNA: T-BY215080*

we where together up to snp Z19890 then we split up 

Yfull has you as T-Y21210

I do not know what you are actually after

----------


## Daniil

> you belong to the T1a2 branch
> 
> looking at your marker you sit with the ancient Viking sample VK398
> 
> *Sample: VK398 / Sweden_Skara 231
> Location: Varnhem, Skara, Sweden
> Age: Viking 10-12th centuries CE
> Y-DNA: T-BY215080*
> 
> ...


I asked a question, with the probability that the person who created a branch on ftdna with me may be here on the forum and will see my message. Because he did not leave any data about himself, who he is, and what country of origin he is.And at the expense of the Viking, we are under T-Y21210 *, that is, we are waiting for close matches.It turns out that a common ancestor with a Viking lived a very very long time ago? Thanks.

----------


## torzio

> @salento
> I am awaiting 2 x new Yfull samples
> YF95759 new T-Z19945*
> YF96863 new T-CTS1848*


YF95759 is now grouped with Brooks ( Brucke ) person ..................this leads to it being either the Curtiss person or one of the Fuser german members from Freshour group
Brooks ancestor was a german from Hanover , original surname Brucke

----------


## torzio

YF96863 is now group with Huracan and CTS1848* ( dead line )...........but after some queries is from Netherlands

----------


## kmkessel

I also recently received my results from FTDNA. I'm under T-FTB90092. It was T-Z19947 for a day, then it recalculated. I only have 15 matches on FTDNA at the 12 marker level and the other kit with the same clade as me isn't showing as a match. I reached out to Gareth from the T project and he said the the number of private variants place a common ancestor about 2400-2600 years ago.

----------


## torzio

> I also recently received my results from FTDNA. I'm under T-FTB90092. It was T-Z19947 for a day, then it recalculated. I only have 15 matches on FTDNA at the 12 marker level and the other kit with the same clade as me isn't showing as a match. I reached out to Gareth from the T project and he said the the number of private variants place a common ancestor about 2400-2600 years ago.


IIRC.....you sit with the german A.Hoff ( who is 1 step away from me in ftdna ) .............but your ancestor is from Lorraine France.......I might have mixed you up with another though

----------


## torzio

Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677

T-CTS8862

tested at Y-DNA111

----------


## kmkessel

Thanks Torzio! My family are Transylvanian Saxons, so the Lorraine France location makes sense. Prior to arriving in Transylvania, they would have come from some where in the Eastern France/Western Germany/Benelux area.

----------


## torzio

> Thanks Torzio! My family are Transylvanian Saxons, so the Lorraine France location makes sense. Prior to arriving in Transylvania, they would have come from some where in the Eastern France/Western Germany/Benelux area.


so you are Caquelin, as in french surname and changed once arriving in England .................what is your relation with Saxons, I am confused

I need to go back a few years and find the notes from Caquelin ancestors on this site

----------


## torzio

> so you are Caquelin, as in french surname and changed once arriving in England .................what is your relation with Saxons, I am confused
> I need to go back a few years and find the notes from Caquelin ancestors on this site



these notes could be your cousins...they have the same Ydna

*N145191 is now part of my group in the Ftdna T project. His surname is Cockley but he has a identical match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. And it is the same family.
BTW.....it is Gockley and not Cockley ..........ancestry given to me was
-Nicholas Caquelin 1650 from Walersbach Alsace has son
-Sebastian Caquelin (1689 - 1751), married Marie Banzet ( Benzing )(1684 - 1733), her parents are Christopher Banzet/Benzing of Bellefosse and Jehanne Neuviller
-Jean Nicholas Caquelin (1718-1796) married Magdalena Barbara Eberly, her parents are Michael Eberly and Veronica Ulrich*

----------


## torzio

there is also


*Jacob Gockley, 1799 - 1862

Jacob Gockley was born on June 29 1799, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA, to Sebastian Caquelin Gacklie and Anna Maria Caquelin Gacklie (born Hoffman).
Sebastian was born on March 26 1761, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA.

and /or

all of these in the link ..............basically in Alsace ( a french/german ) area

https://www.mytrees.com/names/Event/Year/1/CAQUELIN*

----------


## torzio

> there is also
> *Jacob Gockley, 1799 - 1862
> Jacob Gockley was born on June 29 1799, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA, to Sebastian Caquelin Gacklie and Anna Maria Caquelin Gacklie (born Hoffman).
> Sebastian was born on March 26 1761, in Lancaster County Pennsylvania, USA.
> and /or
> all of these in the link ..............basically in Alsace ( a french/german ) area
> https://www.mytrees.com/names/Event/Year/1/CAQUELIN*


from Kelley Caquelin

*Hello, I am T-CTS1848, FTDNA 917435. I am wondering if I should get the y-700 and I currently have the 111. Any suggestions?
M184, TL490, M70, Z19859, L131, L446, Y6055, CTS99, CTS10803, Z19939, Z19939, CTS11984, CTS8489, CTS8862, Z19945, CTS1848 is my Tree but I need to purchase the M184 SNP pack or the y-700?*

----------


## torzio

> these notes could be your cousins...they have the same Ydna
> *N145191 is now part of my group in the Ftdna T project. His surname is Cockley but he has a identical match with the surname Caquelin so I suspect his ancestry is French. And it is the same family.
> BTW.....it is Gockley and not Cockley ..........ancestry given to me was
> -Nicholas Caquelin 1650 from Walersbach Alsace has son
> -Sebastian Caquelin (1689 - 1751), married Marie Banzet ( Benzing )(1684 - 1733), her parents are Christopher Banzet/Benzing of Bellefosse and Jehanne Neuviller
> -Jean Nicholas Caquelin (1718-1796) married Magdalena Barbara Eberly, her parents are Michael Eberly and Veronica Ulrich*



in ftdna 


I also have matches with Ulrich and Benzing ( also in 23andme )

----------


## kmkessel

> so you are Caquelin, as in french surname and changed once arriving in England .................what is your relation with Saxons, I am confused
> I need to go back a few years and find the notes from Caquelin ancestors on this site


I am the other kit in the T project, Kessel. I was confused why Caquelin and I had the same clade but weren't showing as matches. I asked Gareth and he estimates that we shared a ancestor between 2400 and 2600 years ago. He mentioned that the large number of private variants prevent the FTDNA algorithm to calculate a match (Caquelin has 29 private variants and I have 34). As far as the Saxons go, my father's family was in Transylvania from somewhere between 1137 and 1400 until 1944. They were in Austria for a few years and then arrived in the USA in 1953. Prior to the migration to Transylvania they were likely in the same region as Caquelin's ancestors.

Thanks again for the information!

----------


## torzio

> I am the other kit in the T project, Kessel. I was confused why Caquelin and I had the same clade but weren't showing as matches. I asked Gareth and he estimates that we shared a ancestor between 2400 and 2600 years ago. He mentioned that the large number of private variants prevent the FTDNA algorithm to calculate a match (Caquelin has 29 private variants and I have 34). As far as the Saxons go, my father's family was in Transylvania from somewhere between 1137 and 1400 until 1944. They were in Austria for a few years and then arrived in the USA in 1953. Prior to the migration to Transylvania they were likely in the same region as Caquelin's ancestors.
> 
> Thanks again for the information!


with your DYS390 = 23 .........you group with either German or Latvian T1a2 ydna - snp CTS1848 group

you seem to match with a Maurer kit# 286444

----------


## kmkessel

Thanks Torizo! That is interesting about Maurer. He is showing as one of my 12 marker matches at a genetic distance of one step. It looks like he also has an origin in Romania. There are Maurers in on my father's side of the family tree from the village in Transylvania. Maurer is a job related name (mason) so I'm not sure if there would be a way to confirm any connection with him and the Maurers from the village.

----------


## torzio

> Thanks Torizo! That is interesting about Maurer. He is showing as one of my 12 marker matches at a genetic distance of one step. It looks like he also has an origin in Romania. There are Maurers in on my father's side of the family tree from the village in Transylvania. Maurer is a job related name (mason) so I'm not sure if there would be a way to confirm any connection with him and the Maurers from the village.



all of the T in the link are T1a2 with CTS1848 but are 22 ....................you must be a late splitter from this line ......................do you have any in your matches?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## kmkessel

All of my 10 matches that are in the T project are 23. They are only matches at the 12 marker level. The two that had the highest levels of testing were clades T-Y21204 and T-BY109563, which look like they split prior to CTS1848. I think these two kits might be related as they have the same surname and same country of origin. Gareth did mention that I had 34 private variants. Now to figure out the other 33!

----------


## Huracan

Screen Shot 2022-01-26 at 8.23.05 PM.jpg
The new YFull CTS1848* sample (@torzio you said he was from the Netherlands?) was placed in a new subclade with me in the live version of the tree. Let's see if it stays. Very interesting

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-CTS1848/

----------


## torzio

> Screen Shot 2022-01-26 at 8.23.05 PM.jpg
> The new YFull CTS1848* sample (@torzio you said he was from the Netherlands?) was placed in a new subclade with me in the live version of the tree. Let's see if it stays. Very interesting
> https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-CTS1848/


your snp changed


if he is from Netherlands .......................then he is with my Polish link as he wrote to me they where originally from Netherlands and joined the hansetic league of the baltic sea

----------


## Huracan

> your snp changed
> 
> 
> if he is from Netherlands .......................then he is with my Polish link as he wrote to me they where originally from Netherlands and joined the hansetic league of the baltic sea


You mean the Polish BY143483* (surname Bartosiak)? Wasn't his line originally from Thuringia then to Poland?

----------


## torzio

> You mean the Polish BY143483* (surname Bartosiak)? Wasn't his line originally from Thuringia then to Poland?


we went into much further chit -chat ................he states as I just noted above

----------


## Huracan

> we went into much further chit -chat ................he states as I just noted above


Great to know! thanks

----------


## torzio

> Great to know! thanks


further info
His line from his gfather line was from Torun Poland ( dutch settlers )

He is checking if they link with 

*For centuries the inhabitants of the Netherlands have been famed for a skill unknown to other nations, namely that of draining and reclaiming submerged land. When the wave of reform movements in the Catholic church began to sweep across Europe in the 16th century, many, among them the self-declared Mennonites1, had to leave their native soil and emigrate to neighboring or even far-off countries to seek refuge. The first Dutch began to pour into Polish territory circa 1526-27, as they have been located in the vicinity of Paslek in Eastern Prussia in 1527. It appears that this was a populace of wholly Dutch origin. From that time also dates the beginning of a massive exodus of people - described in the Republic of those days as olederski [Dutch, "Hollander"] - from the Netherlands and northern Germany. The colonization advanced in a southerly direction, along the line of the Vistula, and thus reached Saska Kepa in 1624.*
He also noted something about scots in Poland

----------


## torzio

from the latest russian paper on the Tatars

their conclusion on T1a2 ydna for these Tatars

@Salento ..............there is only one snp difference from us and some of these Tatars who are T1a2


*To the T-CTS933 line, probably to its sub-branch T-M70>L131>Y6033>Z19917>CTS933>Z19890>S2746, Mountain side samples include:

v. Murali, Kaybitsky district of the Republic of Tatarstan; Republic of Bashkortostan: v. Taimeevo
Salavatsky district of the Republic of Belarus, Rasmekeevo Kushnarenkovsky district of the Republic of Belarus; Orenburzhya: the village of Ibryaevo, Krasnogvardeisky district, Orenburg region. STR-
haplotypes of these samples are close to each other140.

The ancient subclade T-S2746 is found both in Europe (Holland, Germania, Italy), and in the Middle East (Turkey, Iraq).
*

----------


## Salento

> from the latest russian paper on the Tatars
> their conclusion on T1a2 ydna for these Tatars
> @Salento ..............there is only one snp difference from us and some of these Tatars who are T1a2
> *To the T-CTS933 line, probably to its sub-branch T-M70>L131>Y6033>Z19917>CTS933>Z19890>S2746, Mountain side samples include:
> v. Murali, Kaybitsky district of the Republic of Tatarstan; Republic of Bashkortostan: v. Taimeevo
> Salavatsky district of the Republic of Belarus, Rasmekeevo Kushnarenkovsky district of the Republic of Belarus; Orenburzhya: the village of Ibryaevo, Krasnogvardeisky district, Orenburg region. STR-
> haplotypes of these samples are close to each other140.
> The ancient subclade T-S2746 is found both in Europe (Holland, Germania, Italy), and in the Middle East (Turkey, Iraq).
> *


… thanks Torzio, … if you know it, could you please post the link to that latest Russian paper, … the most recent ones I found don’t have any y T in them :)

----------


## torzio

> … thanks Torzio, … if you know it, could you please post the link to that latest Russian paper, … the most recent ones I found don’t have any y T in them :)



you have to translate it

it also has notes on T1a1 branch

http://админ.татаровед.рф/uploads/li...db24f8d0e4.pdf

----------


## Salento

> you have to translate it
> it also has notes on T1a1 branch
> http://админ.татаровед.рф/uploads/li...db24f8d0e4.pdf


thanks Torzio, … I’ll take a shot at it, … I’ll translate that Russian .pdf into American  :Grin:

----------


## Huracan

S27463 also found in Iran, Azerbaijan, and Turkey ... not too far from Volga Russia region. Very cool.

----------


## torzio

Another SK1480 ...............no idea who it is ............see link below, near the top

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

IN68942 Unknown Origin T-SK1480

----------


## torzio

which company uses IN as their sample ID'S ?

----------


## torzio

New ftdna SNP tracker.

Bronze age celt now for T-Z19945

----------


## torzio

> which company uses IN as their sample ID'S ?



IN is part of the new Ftdna testing system

----------


## Salento

> New ftdna SNP tracker.
> Bronze age celt now for T-Z19945


… our father and us overlap by about 45 minutes by car from Caput Mundi :) 

BY143483 and SK1480 share the same location on the map.

----------


## torzio

> … our father and us overlap by about 45 minutes by car from Caput Mundi :) 
> 
> BY143483 and SK1480 share the same location on the map.



I am skeptical on the modern marker ..............where is the missing medieval marker ?

I do not understand the "father and us" comment

----------


## Salento

> I am skeptical on the modern marker ..............where is the missing medieval marker ?
> I do not understand the "father and us" comment


A mutation in the Middle-Ages is not necessary, … it takes much longer for a y T clade to get a mutation than a popular Haplogroup like R1b.

Our Haplogroup / clade is not popular, and the chances of a mutation increases or decreases in accordance with the number of people carrying the same haplogroup / clade.

----------


## torzio

at Salento

you do not appear anymore on this site

----------


## Salento

> at Salento
> you do not appear anymore on this site


Thanks Torzio, … I didn't know they were showing me, … or I don't remember :)

----------


## torzio

> Thanks Torzio, … I didn't know they were showing me, … or I don't remember :)


nor am I a member...but i get shown .................neither is the polac or belgium guy members
i think he just searches sites to get his numbers up

----------


## Salento

> nor am I a member...but i get shown .................neither is the polac or belgium guy members
> i think he just searches sites to get his numbers up


… that’s because You’re Famous, … you are one of the Founding Fathers of the y T online Community, you’ve been active much longer than many of us :)

----------


## torzio

> … that’s because You’re Famous, … you are one of the Founding Fathers of the y T online Community, you’ve been active much longer than many of us :)


not me the founding father .........it was your neighbour from Abruzzo ( adamo T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)) in 2011 who started it ...............and the Spaniard Alpenjager

I was regulated to the french-Italian-swiss border by ftdna in 2012

DNAtribes then regulated me in 2014 to 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars


and lastly in 2015...........AncestryDNA placed me with the northern-Pannonians


thanks goodness that time has moved on and we get a clearer picture

----------


## Salento

@Torzio … from 1725 onwards, my AncestryDNA map shows my genetic presence in your area, in multiple dates.

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio … from 1725 onwards, my AncestryDNA map shows my genetic presence in your area, in multiple dates.



interesting .............in the last 48 hours I got 2 families I link genetically close to

Pietro Moscher b. 1891 Trambileno, Trento, Italy .....and his line

Gisella Paurle b. 1900 Pozzachio, Trento, Italy .....and her line

along with the Beceval detto Rasmi family .......who seem to be in 3 places of which one is for me

http://www.marianoberti.it/index.php...ecevello-rasmi

----------


## torzio

2 of the above ( in previous post thread ) I have made contact with their relatives in USA via 23andme site

----------


## torzio

> Attachment 13067
> The new YFull CTS1848* sample (@torzio you said he was from the Netherlands?) was placed in a new subclade with me in the live version of the tree. Let's see if it stays. Very interesting
> 
> https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/T-CTS1848/


new Yfull 

Nicolas VIRONET, b. 1818, d. 1874 Belgium *YF103151* new T-Y61337*

belongs to the Verona family ...........a 2nd cousin of the other Vironet samples

----------


## torzio

> new Yfull 
> 
> Nicolas VIRONET, b. 1818, d. 1874 Belgium *YF103151* new T-Y61337*
> 
> belongs to the Verona family ...........a 2nd cousin of the other Vironet samples


I just received in FtDna a Bradley Verona as 1 step from my ydna marker

*
in FtDNa he is T-FT158444*


stated he did a Big Y test

----------


## torzio

Hans Caspar Gräßer; b 1660 and d. 1744 from Germany....................is T- L446
His grandson Johann Christoph came to Canada during the American revolution.

Claude Cregheur is related to the above Hans ( he is french-canadian ) he is T-BY60439. His paternal ancestors are from Thüringen, Germany. 

surname changes are a bummer

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> officially there are only 3 of us … The Survivors :) 
> 
> Is there any of the people you posted around T_SK1480 ?


IN68942 Unknown Origin T-SK1480, this sample from ftdna Montreuil project...................He appears to be French.

FTDNA allocate IN to their own kits shipped to overseas addresses.

----------


## Salento

> IN68942 Unknown Origin T-SK1480, this sample from ftdna Montreuil project...................He appears to be French.
> FTDNA allocate IN to their own kits shipped to overseas addresses.


Merci Torzio, … it means Thanks en Français, … maybe  :Smiling: 

I guess we’re 4:
D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, and Porthos

----------


## torzio

> Merci Torzio, … it means Thanks en Français, … maybe 
> 
> I guess we’re 4:
> D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, and Porthos


You are the *priestly perfumed* one

Maybe I am the the gascon one.......err, maybe not ...................I am definitely not the big one

----------


## torzio

> Merci Torzio, … it means Thanks en Français, … maybe 
> I guess we’re 4:
> D'Artagnan, Athos, Aramis, and Porthos


https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
compare yourself to IN68942

----------


## Hawk

So, is Y-DNA T one of the lineages of PPNB farmers from Levant? How did it end up among Somalis? Because both their E-M78 and Y-DNA T have a recent founder effect among Somalis, looks like both Y-DNA E-M78 and T entered Eastern Africa with Natufian-like/PPNB populations and mixed with Nilothic Eastern African populations.

Would it show among Ancient Egyptians?

----------


## Salento

> So, is Y-DNA T one of the lineages of PPNB farmers from Levant? How did it end up among Somalis? Because both their E-M78 and Y-DNA T have a recent founder effect among Somalis, looks like both Y-DNA E-M78 and T entered Eastern Africa with Natufian-like/PPNB populations and mixed with Nilothic Eastern African populations.
> 
> Would it show among Ancient Egyptians?


… some Ts went back to Africa! … from Asia, like R1*.
y T was in Europe since the neolithic.

Y T may have originated in Western Asia, … spread into E. Africa, S.Asia, S.Europe, and more.

….. T on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 BP and 9,000 BP, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 BP). According to the authors, the spotty modern distribution pattern of haplogroup T-M184 within Africa may therefore represent the traces of a more widespread early local presence of the clade. Later expansions of populations carrying the E1b1b, E1b1a, G and J NRY lineages may have overwhelmed the T-M184 clade-bearers in certain localities……

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

----------


## torzio

> So, is Y-DNA T one of the lineages of PPNB farmers from Levant? How did it end up among Somalis? Because both their E-M78 and Y-DNA T have a recent founder effect among Somalis, looks like both Y-DNA E-M78 and T entered Eastern Africa with Natufian-like/PPNB populations and mixed with Nilothic Eastern African populations.
> 
> Would it show among Ancient Egyptians?



are you referring to the T in the cave found with a bow.............a hunter ?

Ain Ghazal ( 9600 yBP - Early Neolithic ) Late Middle PPNB

I1707 ( 9573 ± 39 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a-PF5610 (x T1a1a-Z19870, T1a1b-Y6031, T1a2b-FGC37337, T1a2a-Y9189)
mtDNA: R0a
Other IDs: Ghazal-I / AG83_5 / Poz-81097
Coverage: 0,142
atDNA Notes: Northern origin.
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

...............
or these below who are from one line also found in Iberia and atlantic coast Morocco
Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic )

I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPK021 / S1155.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: N1a1b
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 308
Other IDs: CHPKL101B-005, CHPKL101B-011 / S1160.E1.L1, S1161.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.95
Other IDs: CHPKL104-004 / S1165.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1166
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: H
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.981
Other IDs: CHPKL104-014, CHPKL104-026 / S1166.E1.L1 / S1167.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1170
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: T1a2
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.67
Other IDs: CHPKL105-030 / S1170.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1172
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: K1a
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.12
Other IDs: CHPKL108B-024 / S1172.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1178
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: I6
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 2.56
Other IDs: CHPKL109L-015 / S1178.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1180
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: T
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.09
Other IDs: CHPKL109M-028 / S1180.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

I1187
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a-CTS2214 (xY15711,, Y21017, Y3782, Y9102, Z709)
mtDNA: U6d
Sample: Petrous
Coverage: 0.12
Other IDs: CHPKL301N-001 / Library S1187.E1.L1
Other IDs: CHPKL109M-028 / S1180.E1.L1
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM

Peqi'in Cave atDNA notes: Northern origin. They also carry the WHG G allele for Blue eyes at Rs12913832.

----------


## torzio

*Northern origin*  refers to anywhere between Black sea Georgia area to northern Syria

----------


## torzio

> … some Ts went back to Africa! … from Asia, like R1*.
> y T was in Europe since the neolithic.
> 
> Y T may have originated in Western Asia, … spread into E. Africa, S.Asia, S.Europe, and more.
> 
> ….. T on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 BP and 9,000 BP, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 BP). According to the authors, the spotty modern distribution pattern of haplogroup T-M184 within Africa may therefore represent the traces of a more widespread early local presence of the clade. Later expansions of populations carrying the E1b1b, E1b1a, G and J NRY lineages may have overwhelmed the T-M184 clade-bearers in certain localities……
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184



Lemba T in South Africa origin in modern syria.............they went to modern Yemen, then Tanzania and then south Africa, they mixed and married local women as they took no women with them when they left syria ..............looking at their history they believe they where some type of religious order...........I might check on web to see any updates on them.

first reported in the mendez paper of 2011

----------


## torzio

> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...§ion=yresults
> compare yourself to IN68942


I found out that all of these in the link, represent the French who went to first settle in Canada

most come from Denis province of France

----------


## torzio

Interesting in BigY is that T1a2-Pages00113 has a few Ukraines, Belarus and Poles ..............yet this snp is negative for myself .............but I have a Pole in my T1a2-SK1480 group, he does state/thinks he is of dutch origin part of hansetic league


still nothing on who is the sample in post #1065

----------


## torzio

Ulrich Blarer b about 1190 and d 1242 Sankt Gallen Switzerland T-CTS933


in any Ftdna project ................my closest , oldest sample seems to be , the above


but the one that sits in my group ( also in yfull ) is Giovanni ERSPAMER, b. 1704 (Malosco, Italy) Italy

----------


## Salento

T-CTS8862 is now in Germany, T-BY143483 and T-SK1480 overlap in Italy, ... we're totally Romans  :Satisfied:

----------


## torzio

> T-CTS8862 is now in Germany, T-BY143483 and T-SK1480 overlap in Italy, ... we're totally Romans



looks like Samnites or Sabines .............we are not elite enough to be Romans :Big smile:

----------


## Salento

> looks like Samnites or Sabines .............we are not elite enough to be Romans


…we’re very Elite (Golden King, Jefferson, …), as far as we know, Romulus was one of us, maybe :)

----------


## torzio

> looks like Samnites or Sabines .............we are not elite enough to be Romans



umbri migrated into Italy from central europe circa 2300BC ..............like your map  :Thinking:  :Big smile:  :Thinking:

----------


## Salento

> looks like Samnites or Sabines .............we are not elite enough to be Romans


If the timeline is OK, we should share close ancestors in the last 220 years or less, … and since the 1600s (at least), Rome, Marche, and Lecce has had communities of people close to my DNA (according to MyHeritage).

----------


## Pax Augusta

> umbri migrated into Italy from central europe circa 2300BC ..............like your map


Archeologists support the idea that Umbrians were formed in Italy, didn't come from abroad. Those who arrived in the Bronze Age are a prehistoric or protohistoric component from which their language is most likely descended.

For anthropologists then, one can speak of peoples in Italy and other parts of Europe only when they show ethnic self-awareness, which occurs in the Iron Age, and not before.

----------


## torzio

> Archeologists support the idea that Umbrians were formed in Italy, didn't come from abroad. Those who arrived in the Bronze Age are a prehistoric or protohistoric component from which their language is most likely descended.
> 
> For anthropologists then, one can speak of peoples in Italy and other parts of Europe only when they show ethnic self-awareness, which occurs in the Iron Age, and not before.


I agree ....*and I said many times* , the bulk of Italians from central and south italy come via only 2 groups , the Etruscan and Umbri group 

I leave out Sicily and the Northern Italians groups ( basically the ones north of the Po river and the Liguri ( and beyond ) )......................I only state what other Archeologists state in their documentations , that the Umbri came into Italy via the NE of Italy passage from Central-Europe/czechia areas, ............the date I posted is what they posted

----------


## torzio

> If the timeline is OK, we should share close ancestors in the last 220 years or less, … and since the 1600s (at least), Rome, Marche, and Lecce has had communities of people close to my DNA (according to MyHeritage).



I have a record of my family line ( paternal )going back to 1450 .............for your 220 years ago......my line as per BDM, was in Ponzano Veneto and Villorba towns ...........in 1823 one line went to Morgano in Veneto and another to Volpago del Montello in Veneto.

prior to 1820 ..............the family was around the above noted areas and Montebelluna Veneto areas ( north of )

my cousins in Italy in the last 5 years has found a 90% link with the family in attachment below ...................this family and its marriages with locals has me linking with many DNA matches in the area of Val di Non, Trentino ( it many towns ) ..............I cannot challenge this , even if I ignore 2 segments matches of DNA, there are many I share beyond 2 segments and up to 6 segments ...................chat with me privately for further info/proof

I know your surname is common in Italy ...an equal to smith an jones in britain.......but I have not come across it in my line............maybe your family had a name change.

here is the oldest link presented to my cousins in italy and matching many families in the area 

http://www.dermulo.it/DermuloStory/Genealogia/PretH.htm

----------


## Salento

Statistically speaking, if our y Haplogroup had been more popular, we could have had a few clades between us, (higher chances for mutations) … I guess :)

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I agree ....*and I said many times* , the bulk of Italians from central and south italy come via only 2 groups , the Etruscan and Umbri group 
> 
> I leave out Sicily and the Northern Italians groups ( basically the ones north of the Po river and the Liguri ( and beyond ) )......................I only state what other Archeologists state in their documentations , that the Umbri came into Italy via the NE of Italy passage from Central-Europe/czechia areas, ............the date I posted is what they posted


Sorry saying that, but it is nonsense. Etruscans were also in northern Italy from the very beginning of their history and were related linguistically to the Rhaetians of the Alps. Even the Umbrians at some point in their history expanded northward. These are not topics that can be discussed without any proper knowledge.

----------


## torzio

> Statistically speaking, if our y Haplogroup had been more popular, we could have had a few clades between us, (higher chances for mutations) … I guess :)



in our group is a ...Erspamer ...b.1701 ..............related to the person which runs

http://valdinonusa.com/index.php

the site only deals with people who migrated to the USA, so it does not count all

----------


## torzio

> Sorry saying that, but it is nonsense. Etruscans were also in northern Italy from the very beginning of their history and were related linguistically to the Rhaetians of the Alps. Even the Umbrians at some point in their history expanded northward. These are not topics that can be discussed without any proper knowledge.


*The term "Raetic" refers to a few hundred inscriptions found mainly in the Trentino and in South and North Tyrol, as well as sporadically in the Veneto, in Graubünden, and in Slovenia. These inscriptions, written with North Italic alphabets, are roughly dated between the 6th and the 1st centuries BC, and are the only documents of the Raetic language*

When did these Etruscans have a union with the Rhaetics ?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> *The term "Raetic" refers to a few hundred inscriptions found mainly in the Trentino and in South and North Tyrol, as well as sporadically in the Veneto, in Graubünden, and in Slovenia. These inscriptions, written with North Italic alphabets, are roughly dated between the 6th and the 1st centuries BC, and are the only documents of the Raetic language*
> When did these Etruscans have a union with the Rhaetics ?


I know you don't like the idea that Etruscans and Raetians were related linguistically, but at some point you need to grow up and stop being interested in these topics only to research yourself, your ancestors, and your identity. We need to move on to the next stage.

----------


## Salento



----------


## torzio

> I know you don't like the idea that Etruscans and Raetians were related linguistically, but at some point you need to grow up and stop being interested in these topics only to research yourself, your ancestors, and your identity. We need to move on to the next stage.



they are related linguistically....but Rhaetic is young in language found............Rhaetic is also related with Venetic ................both Venetic and etruscan are older than Rhaetic........but linguistic proves nothing .............do you have other ethnic relationships ?

*Syllabic punctuation became the key feature of Venetic script, even though alphabet variants from other parts of the Venetic realm deviate from the Este alphabet, most prominently in the writing of the dental stops. Prosdocimi argues that the younger phase 2 alphabets represent different solutions for reconciling the archaic Venetic alphabet with the younger Etruscan one and particularly the theoretical grid on which the writing instruction was based. Whether the Veneti still had access to the characters for mediae (as lettres mortes through Etruscan teaching) is hard to judge*

*The Raetic alphabets

Within the Raetic corpus, two different alphabets are distinguished. This goes back as far as Mommsen 1853 with his "Tyrolean" and "Verona" alphabets. Mommsen's "Tyrolean alphabet" was termed "Bozen alphabet" by Pauli 1885; his "Verona alphabet", originally attested in only one inscription, was rebranded as "Magrè alphabet" by Pellegrini 1918. After a suggestion by Mancini 1975: 306 (n. 42), the term "Bozen alphabet" was again changed to "Sanzeno alphabet" to reflect the latter site's large output of finds. (See Modern research on Raetic for details). Though the two alphabets had long been expected and were eventually demonstrated to encode the same language, the distinction still holds. The alphabets differ from each other in the use of graphic variants of a handful of letters, but share certain features which set them apart from the other North Italic alphabets and can therefore be considered typically Raetic.* 

The Sanzeno alphabet bears a closer resemblance to the Etruscan and Lepontic alphabets (Pauli 1885: 58–60): pi with a single bar P2 s, lambda with the bar at the bottom L2 s, and tip-down upsilon U2 s correspond to the standard letter forms in those alphabets. According to Prosdocimi 1971: 33, the Venetic system of distinction is a variation of the archaic Etruscan one, while the Sanzeno forms (especially pi with a single bar) correspond to younger Etruscan ones. However, pi P2 s is already found in 7th-century Chiusi (e.g., Cl 2.1, 2.4).

*There is a certain extent of (random?) variation in the North Italic alphabets concerning the orientation of lambda and upsilon – non-inverted forms occur in the Venetic alphabetss (e.g., lambda L2 s in Es 16, upsilon U2 s in Es 22); inverted forms, particularly of upsilon, appear sporadically in the Lepontic alphabet (e.g., TI·36.3). Pi appears with a single bar in Venetic inscriptions from the Cadore (e.g., Ca 65). Still, the variation in the Raetic inscriptions is too regular to be put down to chance. The only inscriptions in which Sanzeno-forms co-occur with Magrè-forms are three inscriptions from find places associated with the Magrè alphabet: AS-17.1 has hyper-distinctive L2 s next to P s and U s, MA-6 has U2 s in combination with P s. In the latter case, the occurrence of "incorrect" upsilon may be attributed to the tendency to invert letters (especially alpha and epsilon) which can be observed in the Magrè inscriptions (see below sub Writing direction). In VR-6, Magrè-type upsilon U s appears beside a character looking like the Sanzeno letter for the dental affricate Þ3 s; L s is therefore ambiguous, as is tau T d, which has its bar crossing the hasta, but is retrograde as typical for the Sanzeno alphabet*

----------


## torzio

> but at some point you need to grow up and stop being interested in these topics only to research yourself, your ancestors, and your identity. We need to move on to the next stage.


clarify what you mean.......what is the next stage, that you seek ?

----------


## torzio

> but at some point you need to grow up and stop being interested in these topics only to research yourself, your ancestors, and your identity. We need to move on to the next stage.


Check the thread name ................
What is the next stage you seek for this thread ?

----------


## Salento

MTA has the T1a2… : Skeleton-Lake, Swedish Viking, and CL Roman-Illiryan sharing the same clade.
… is the the Crusader knight T1a, T1a1, T1a2, or T1a3 ???

----------


## Salento

... found some info at ReichLab: it only says that SI-42 is T1a2 !

_SI-42 - petrous - 2018 - HaberAJHG2018 - y T1a2 - mt J1b1a1 - 1159-1283 calCE (811±45 BP) - Lebanon_Medieval - Sidon Lebanon - Male (no relatives detected)_

----------


## torzio

> ... found some info at ReichLab: it only says that SI-42 is T1a2 !
> _SI-42 - petrous - 2018 - HaberAJHG2018 - y T1a2 - mt J1b1a1 - 1159-1283 calCE (811±45 BP) - Lebanon_Medieval - Sidon Lebanon - Male (no relatives detected)_


*Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
SI-42
Y-DNA: T1a-M70 (xCTS10577, CTS8051, FGC1272, FGC1249, CTS11626, CTS7001, CTS382, FGC1180, PF5521, CTS5499, CTS1599, FGC1517, CTS4435, FGC1200, PF5663, CTS11431, FGC1286, FGC1292, FGC1264, CTS9703, FGC1290, CTS4831, PF7460, CTS10618, PF5571, CTS12114, CTS9717, FGC1291)
mtDNA: J1b1a1
Sample:
Coverage: 0.7
Mapped Reads: 37079898
Other IDs:
ENA Number: ERS3189353
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-BAM)
*


he was born in area in link below after isotope tests

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia_and_Pontus

----------


## Salento

> *Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
> SI-42
> Y-DNA: T1a-M70 (xCTS10577, CTS8051, FGC1272, FGC1249, CTS11626, CTS7001, CTS382, FGC1180, PF5521, CTS5499, CTS1599, FGC1517, CTS4435, FGC1200, PF5663, CTS11431, FGC1286, FGC1292, FGC1264, CTS9703, FGC1290, CTS4831, PF7460, CTS10618, PF5571, CTS12114, CTS9717, FGC1291)
> mtDNA: J1b1a1
> Sample:
> Coverage: 0.7
> Mapped Reads: 37079898
> Other IDs:
> ENA Number: ERS3189353
> ...


… that’s interesting, … It would be cool if the scientists did an isotope test on all samples ever published.

----------


## Salento

... that Haber study has another y T besides the SI-42 Sidon Crusader, ... QED2 a Roman Era T1a1... T-CTS9882 (T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1) - mt T1
... QED-2 and QED-7 (Female mt HV1b) are 2nd or 3rd degree relatives.

----------


## torzio

> ... that Haber study has another y T besides the SI-42 Sidon Crusader, ... QED2 a Roman Era T1a1... T-CTS9882 (T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a1) - mt T1
> ... QED-2 and QED-7 (Female mt HV1b) are 2nd or 3rd degree relatives.



Qornet ed-Deir ( 1794 yBP - Roman )

QED-2
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a-P77 (xT1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a, T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1b, T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a2)
mtDNA: T1
Sample:
Coverage: 1.31
Mapped Reads: 71266615
Other IDs:
ENA Number: ERS3189333
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-BAM)


https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S...297(19)30111-9

----------


## torzio

On Yfull ..............below is the Reddick Knox line for T1a2

Peter Rettich 1681-1750.....from Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany
married
Anna Elizabeth Wiener 1678-1749 

had son
Johannes Rettich also had spelling for surnames of Reddick and Radick b.1701 in Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany....died 1774 in USA
married
Maria Barbara Wolff ....born Germany and Died in USA

had son
Peter Reddick 1730-1815 born and died in Georgia USA

----------


## Salento

> On Yfull ..............below is the Reddick Knox line for T1a2
> Peter Rettich 1681-1750.....from Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany
> married
> Anna Elizabeth Wiener 1678-1749 
> had son
> Johannes Rettich also had spelling for surnames of Reddick and Radick b.1701 in Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany....died 1774 in USA
> married
> Maria Barbara Wolff ....born Germany and Died in USA
> had son
> Peter Reddick 1730-1815 born and died in Georgia USA


speculating … by looking only at his background, I believe that Peter wasn’t a fan of the Red Coats, he was obviously a Patriot :)

----------


## torzio

> speculating … by looking only at his background, I believe that Peter wasn’t a fan of the Red Coats, he was obviously a Patriot :)


Maybe.........who his line might be like Rob Lowe .............a Hessian who fought against the USA , captured and stayed instead of going back to Hesse Germany.

https://www.metacritic.com/tv/who-do...ode-9-rob-lowe

https://tracingthetree.wordpress.com...think-you-are/

----------


## torzio

> On Yfull ..............below is the Reddick Knox line for T1a2
> Peter Rettich 1681-1750.....from Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany
> married
> Anna Elizabeth Wiener 1678-1749 
> had son
> Johannes Rettich also had spelling for surnames of Reddick and Radick b.1701 in Gadernheim, Reichenbach, Bergstraße, Hesse, Germany....died 1774 in USA
> married
> Maria Barbara Wolff ....born Germany and Died in USA
> had son
> Peter Reddick 1730-1815 born and died in Georgia USA



I have gone back to 

*Simon Retgen

Born in 1520 - Reichenbach, Bergstrasse, Hessen, Germany
Deceased in 1581 - Reichenbach, Bergstrasse, Hessen, Germany, aged 61 years old
*
as the oldest from this line

----------


## Salento

> Maybe.........who his line might be like Rob Lowe .............a Hessian who fought against the USA , captured and stayed instead of going back to Hesse Germany.
> https://www.metacritic.com/tv/who-do...ode-9-rob-lowe
> https://tracingthetree.wordpress.com...think-you-are/


… that Hessian got Trumped by favorite y T Founding Father :)

----------


## torzio

> … that Hessian got Trumped by favorite y T Founding Father :)


but the founding father is T1a1 ..................you are T1a2

the difference is the same as R1b is to R1a

----------


## Salento

> but the founding father is T1a1 ..................you are T1a2
> the difference is the same as R1b is to R1a


You and I carry the same final clade, but we share a piece of our Y Chrome with all Ts, besides descending from the same Y T First Father Tribe.

----------


## Salento

:Thinking:  chrome Y is Immortal, as long as there are y Ts, a piece of First Father will live, though he almost didn't make it, something happened that caused our numbers to decline.

----------


## kingjohn

Hi
_1 individual of the 9 belonged to haplogroup 
t1a1a_


Source:

*Table S2:*
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.24566


P.s 
The site is here i think the remains dates from 13th centurey
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdu

----------


## torzio

Another new T1a2 in Yfull under T-Z19945

*YF105172 new T-BY102788*

----------


## torzio

Got another T match in Ftdna with a Hill King 

belongs with all these other T in link below ...............I match a lot of them

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

----------


## Huracan

> *Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
> SI-42
> Y-DNA: T1a-M70 (xCTS10577, CTS8051, FGC1272, FGC1249, CTS11626, CTS7001, CTS382, FGC1180, PF5521, CTS5499, CTS1599, FGC1517, CTS4435, FGC1200, PF5663, CTS11431, FGC1286, FGC1292, FGC1264, CTS9703, FGC1290, CTS4831, PF7460, CTS10618, PF5571, CTS12114, CTS9717, FGC1291)
> mtDNA: J1b1a1
> Sample:
> Coverage: 0.7
> Mapped Reads: 37079898
> Other IDs:
> ENA Number: ERS3189353
> ...


Where did you find out the isotope test birth area information? What source?

----------


## torzio

> Where did you find out the isotope test birth area information? What source?


info sent to me via a T project administraor

----------


## torzio

T ydna ............ie modern numbers in Tyrol .............names are from papers done

----------


## torzio

North and east Tyrol does not have many............bulk in South Tyrol ( Italian Tyrol ) or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenti.../S%C3%BCdtirol

----------


## torzio

Other T1a2 ydna ...................some I match with and some only Matt Verona match with

Vincent Umile Montaldo ....................oldest ancestor ...Achille Montaldo , Italy

Ryan Michael Cutillo ........................Valentino Cutillo, Italy

Erwin Kalt ....................................Austria

Jasoslaw Lesniewski .........................????

Andrew Robert Melcher ....................Ancestor from Trentino, Italy

Philippe Sion ........................T1a2-Sk1480 ...................why is he not on my list, is FtDna flawed ?



Lieven Sioen .....................Another T-Sk1480.........not on my list

Ian Preston ............................Wales

John Keys Knox ......................William Knox 1761-1837

Clifton L Knox ........................Robert Knox 1725-1806 , Ireland

Nelson Bonitto ............................Italy


All of the Above are T1a2 branch

----------


## torzio

More on Sion from chit chat

Sion is an ancient Viking-Scottish name derived from the Old English personal name Swein, which was originally derived from the Old Norse name Sveinn. 

"my Sion" below

Antonio SION

Deceased before 1663 - Raschiacco di Campeglio, Friuli, ITALIA

Married Dorotea Pelzer

and

.................................................. ....
Sioen
from Vanden Bussche family Tree

oldest ancestor ............Lucas Sioen 1601-1646 from Sint-Pieters-op-de-Dijk, Belgium...married Marie Dhaene




Both are T1a2-SK1480

Is the Ftdna project changes manually done or automatic

----------


## torzio

Maybe a sister of Antonio as per above


Domenica SION

Born - Raschiacco di Campeglio, Friuli, ITALIA

Spouses

Married 29 January 1674, Campeglio, Friuli, ITALIA, to Biasio SERAFINI


.........................................

https://www.antenati.san.benicultura...633026/5YeeVRy .....................bottom registry

Lorenzo Sion

Born 24 August 1772 (Monday)
Agricoltore

Parents

Giovanni Battista Sion
Masutta Elena

Spouses

Civil solidarity pact 29 April 1812 (Wednesday), Cividale del Friuli, 1926, Udine, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italië, with Maria Namor 1789

----------


## torzio

SION surname in Italy
Caserta Campania .............oldest is circa 1800
Turin ...........................circa 1730
Rome ............................circa 1900
Brescia , Lombardy ...........circa 1760
//////////////////////////////
*Antoine Sion
Print Family Tree
Born in 1761
Deceased 20 April 1841 - Relanges, Vosges, Grand Est, France, aged 80 years old
Spouses and children
Married 17 March 1794, Relanges 88, to Marguerite Meignien* 
I have Dna matches with Vosges, Grand Est, France area

----------


## torzio

not sure if the de Sion have T1a2

but this person is from Ome, Brescia, italy



Pierre de Sion d'AIGLE b.1301
Jeannette BLONAY

----------


## torzio

The SK1480 I do not have 



i contacted the ftdna project team for T and asked the question

----------


## torzio

2 more new samples in YFull from my branch of T1a2

look like brothers

----------


## Huracan

> 2 more new samples in YFull from my branch of T1a2
> look like brothers


Great! Live version also shows West Pomerania, Poland as one of their origins
Screen Shot 2022-07-21 at 4.20.35 PM.png

----------


## torzio

> Great! Live version also shows West Pomerania, Poland as one of their origins
> Screen Shot 2022-07-21 at 4.20.35 PM.png



the POL is

Mieczysław Prokowski, b. 1925

where do you get West Pomerania ?

----------


## torzio

@ Huracan
Ok I found it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_P...an_Voivodeship
Województwo zachodniopomorskie

This is Old Prussia lands.......non Slavic ......but old Baltic people prior to 1200

----------


## torzio

> @ Huracan
> Ok I found it
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_P...an_Voivodeship
> Województwo zachodniopomorskie
> This is Old Prussia lands.......non Slavic ......but old Baltic people prior to 1200



from

Chociwel, Zachodniopomorskie / West Pomeranian Voivodeship, Poland

----------


## torzio

Reminds me of the match I had in the old FtDna YSearch ....with IIRC , surname Ahmann ? from Stettin, West Pomeranian Voivodeship, Poland

@Huracan.......see your post #53

----------


## torzio

So..there is 4 x T1a2 samples from ( Lubeck, Stettin )
West Pomeranian Voivodeship, Poland ........................could be Hansetic League

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

----------


## torzio

Another from the area as above ....................their ancestors are below
Michael Klein b.1714 married to Eva Elsaesser Schwarz b.1716
both from Rheinsheim, Karlsruhe, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

----------


## torzio

Yfull sent me a message......they changed the origins ..................I thought they would, so the family link via Familysearch trees is with my post #1119

these 2 have slightly surpassed Erspamer sample from 1701 Trentino Italy ( also in link below)

----------


## torzio

> Another from the area as above ....................their ancestors are below
> Michael Klein b.1714 married to Eva Elsaesser Schwarz b.1716
> both from Rheinsheim, Karlsruhe, Baden-Württemberg, Germany



There seems to be a name change .............I cannot find the indicated town name ( bolded )
80% positive it came from Klein line....but need to confirm this


Joannes Bruno Prokowski
Event	Marriage
Marriage	Nov 9 1795
*Monkowarsk, West Prussia*
Wife	Catharina Taizonka

----------


## torzio

> There seems to be a name change .............I cannot find the indicated town name ( bolded )
> 80% positive it came from Klein line....but need to confirm this
> 
> 
> Joannes Bruno Prokowski
> Event	Marriage
> Marriage	Nov 9 1795
> *Monkowarsk, West Prussia*
> Wife	Catharina Taizonka


stated as Polish in yfull and not ukraine

*id:YF105892 UKR [UA-18] pol new*

UA-18 = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhytomyr_Oblast

----------


## torzio

Yfull updated my snp ................it finally recognises SK1480 ....but uses other snp to define the branch

----------


## torzio

my old Ysearch T matches are still very good ................pity we have lost ysearch

Frush Maryland, USA Unknown Family Tree DNA 
Curtiss Stratford, Fairfield,, USA T1 (tested) 
Frush Germany Unknown Family Tree DNA 
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

Fundora San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba T1b* 
Foster Germany Unknown Family Tree DNA 
Vecchio Italy Unknown Family Tree DNA 
Atwell Northumberland, England Unknown Family Tree DNA 
Bauer Austria T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 


Knox Strabane, Northern Ireland T1b (tested) 
Retgen Pitt County, North Carolina, USA T1 (tested) 
Ahmann Lienen, Preußen/Prussia, Germany T1 (tested) 

Blarer St. Gallen, Switzerland T1b (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Hohenfeld Tolkmicko, Poland T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Atwell Virginia, USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Liss Kartuz Bereza, Belarus T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Lippi Arezzo, Italy Unknown Other - SMGF 
Carson Lorraine, France T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Mason West Palm Beach Florida, USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Russo Camposano, Province of Naples, Italy T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Fauth Rastatt, Alsace/Elsaß, Germany Unknown Family Tree DNA 
Teaford Nancy, Alsace-Lorraine/Elsass-Lothringen, France T1b (tested) 


Hill Darlington, South Carolina, USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Hill Tennessee, USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Hill Tennessee, USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 
Hill Packsville (Paxville), USA T1 (tested) Family Tree DNA 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## torzio

*Y-Haplogroup: T-Y349970*
Terminal SNPs: FT184767 • SK1480 • Y264433 • Y325131 • Y349950 • Y349951 • Y349953 • Y349954 • Y349955 • Y349960 • Y349970 • Y349971 • Y349976 • Z2*6593

ukraine guy is now T-Y264435.
pole guy remained as he was aligned with the trentino italian Erspamer ( married a marinelli )...............Pole guy still stated he is dutch origin , part of Hansetic league.
Brooks guy changed as well.

I will let huracan state his changes

----------


## torzio

Erspamer

Giovanni married Elisabetta Marinelli
his son

Giacomo 1769-1832 married Cattarina Marinelli ..............both from Malosco, Trento, Trentino-Alto Adige, Italy

his line below

Nicolo 1799-1857 married Agata Gius
his son

Floriano 1828 - 1915 married Matilde Franch and resided in Cloz South Tyrol after the marriage

----------


## torzio

> from
> 
> Chociwel, Zachodniopomorskie / West Pomeranian Voivodeship, Poland


all members of the T1a2 ......Prokowski are buried in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chociwel

4 members of family found so far buried at same cemetery in Chociwel


...............................
oldest family member found is

David Prokowski
Birth	Mar 4 1829
Dachau, Rosenberg, Bavaria, Germany


cannot find when they moved from Bavaria to Stettin

----------


## torzio

> all members of the T1a2 ......Prokowski are buried in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chociwel
> 
> 4 members of family found so far buried at same cemetery in Chociwel
> 
> 
> ...............................
> oldest family member found is
> 
> ...


traced back to Ferdinand Prokowski 1567
Prokowski in the areas of Hesse, Hesse-Kassel, Hess Darmstadt, Hess-Marburg, Hess-Reinfels, and Waldeck, Germany, *from Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1661-1957*

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## torzio

> all members of the T1a2 ......Prokowski are buried in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chociwel
> 4 members of family found so far buried at same cemetery in Chociwel


First names: Edward Franciszek
Surname: Prokowski
Place of birth: CHOCIWEL 
Date of birth: 30-05-1955
Father's name: Mieczysław .....................20/5/1925- 19/1/1962
Mother's name: Genowefa 

from Stettin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stettin_(region)


Prokowski is a rare name, as of 1990 there were only 30 Poles by this name. That is often a handicap, but in this case it might work to your advantage -- of those 30, 28 live in the province of Szczecin (the other 2 in Jelenia Gora). ....Szczecin=Stettin

Ancestor of above = Seppel Prokowski .....married a Poser from https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...italiani/POSER

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## torzio

@ salento

new T - Sk1480 in Ftdna .....in our group

*Matej Kohout b.1855 and d. 1940 Czech Republic T-SK1480*

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## torzio

and also in my other groupings with zero step ......but other group in Ftdna

*Francis Marion Nixon, b. 1819 GA and d. 1889 AL United States*

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## torzio

father of Matej ( above posts)

Father: Josef Kohout b. 14 Oct 1838
Mother: Rozalie Hellerova b. c 1845

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## torzio

> father of Matej ( above posts)
> Father: Josef Kohout b. 14 Oct 1838
> Mother: Rozalie Hellerova b. c 1845



Adam Kohout
b. 15 October 1800, d. 1 February 1875

Birth: 15 October 1800; 19, Dobrikov, Domazlice, Czechia
Marriage: 16 February 1830; Principal=Dorota Schleissova

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## torzio

> and also in my other groupings with zero step ......but other group in Ftdna
> *Francis Marion Nixon, b. 1819 GA and d. 1889 AL United States*



https://www.geni.com/people/Dr-Franc...00111393914826

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## torzio

> https://www.geni.com/people/Dr-Franc...00111393914826



Francis Marion Nixon, I was born in 1766, in Black Mountain, Buncombe County, Province of North Carolina, .............., to Thomas John Nixon and Lucy Percy .
Thomas was born in 1740, in Mayo, Ireland

.................................................. ..................

Thomas John Nixon, born 1740 and married Lucy Percy

thomas is son of


Richard George Nixon, born 1697 in Fermanagh, Ireland and he married Catherine Acheson — married 16 Jun 1720 in Tonnyheague, Fermanagh, , Ireland

----------


## torzio

> Adam Kohout
> b. 15 October 1800, d. 1 February 1875
> Birth: 15 October 1800; 19, Dobrikov, Domazlice, Czechia
> Marriage: 16 February 1830; Principal=Dorota Schleissova


..................................
adam son of

Johann Adam Kohout, 1755 - 1818 born in Meclov, Czechia and married to Barbara Dittrich born on May 26 1756, in Tannawa

......................................

Johann father was 

Johann Andreas Kohout, 1717 - 1781 born in Ohnišťovice, Czechia....and married to Anna Richter on April 24 1742, Anna born in 1715


.........................................

Johann Andrea father was

Bartholomäus Kohout and Anna Maria Neumann
Bartholomäus was born on July 13 1683, in Ohnistovice,
Anna Maria born on May 2 1691, in Wilkenau, Bischofteinitz, Böhmen, Áustria

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## Wanderer

Edit. I see your line is luis fundora from around 1809.

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## torzio

> Edit. I see your line is luis fundora from around 1809.



wrong

Luis is on here though but it is not me .............good try

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## Wanderer

> wrong
> 
> Luis is on here though but it is not me .............good try


No I am talking about the OP. His intial posts says that at the bottom

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## Wanderer

The fundora name appears to have been around since the 1700s (at least) from another site I have seen. Sometime later I might look to see what I find out. Fundora is an interesting surname. Unusual for hispanics. Kind of like my ancestors paternal surname and my Y dna match

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## torzio

@salento

Do you match with a Patrick Walsh ?................if so you should also match with

Henry Benningfield ....

Henry E Benningfield was born in 1760, in Richmond District, Wise, Virginia, United States, his father, Thomas Benningfield, was 21 and his mother, Desi Hicks, was 19.

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## torzio

@ salento

Another ..............a distant one from me......what about for yourself

Anders Hestenes b.ca 1500 Gloppen Sfj Norway


..............................................ther e is also a mispelled surname Armland ...............it should be Armund from Czechia ......related to the old German Beer Family

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## torzio

> The fundora name appears to have been around since the 1700s (at least) from another site I have seen. Sometime later I might look to see what I find out. Fundora is an interesting surname. Unusual for hispanics. Kind of like my ancestors paternal surname and my Y dna match



yes ..Spanish in origin

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## torzio

> No I am talking about the OP. His intial posts says that at the bottom


you mean this connection?

Fundora San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba

----------


## torzio

> @ salento
> Another ..............a distant one from me......what about for yourself
> Anders Hestenes b.ca 1500 Gloppen Sfj Norway
> ..............................................ther e is also a mispelled surname Armland ...............it should be Armund from Czechia ......related to the old German Beer Family



Armland could be Armeland from Denmark

----------


## Wanderer

> you mean this connection?
> 
> Fundora San Antonio de Río Blanco del Norte, La Habana, Cuba


Yes. His surname may not be spanish. Could be portuguese. But I am not familiar with portuguese names.

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## Wanderer

You may want to explore some mexico and venezuelan records also. There might be a relation since its a rare surname

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## Huracan

> You may want to explore some mexico and venezuelan records also. There might be a relation since its a rare surname


Hello I am the OP (surname Fundora), I've encountered Venezuelan records on FamilySearch. I can look up these as well, thanks for the suggestion.

As for your previous messages, yes I previously suspected a Portuguese origin of my surname, at most Galician due to historical connections. Some distant DNA relatives and their connections state the surname's origin from northern Spain (Asturias). I continue to research this extensively.

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## Huracan

> ..................................
> adam son of
> Johann Adam Kohout, 1755 - 1818 born in Meclov, Czechia and married to Barbara Dittrich born on May 26 1756, in Tannawa
> ......................................
> Johann father was 
> Johann Andreas Kohout, 1717 - 1781 born in Ohnišťovice, Czechia....and married to Anna Richter on April 24 1742, Anna born in 1715
> .........................................
> Johann Andrea father was
> Bartholomäus Kohout and Anna Maria Neumann
> ...


Where did you find this information? I tried searching but came up with nothing.

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## torzio

> Where did you find this information? I tried searching but came up with nothing.


you need to do the 3 hour google search course .................work sent me 10 years ago ( when I was working ) 

anyway

http://www.slajs.co.uk/TMG_EP/surname_index.htm

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## Salento

> @salento
> 
> Do you match with a Patrick Walsh ?................if so you should also match with
> 
> Henry Benningfield ....
> 
> Henry E Benningfield was born in 1760, in Richmond District, Wise, Virginia, United States, his father, Thomas Benningfield, was 21 and his mother, Desi Hicks, was 19.


@Torzio, I don’t know if I match P. Walsh, … I have limited access to the site.

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## torzio

@ Salento
my snp has changed again in ftdna


from the T project ( ftdna) 

*Y79536 was previously an equivalent to SK1480 . Bernard Kohout is SK1480+ but Y79536- so the SNPs are no longer equivalent.*

Can you see your snp for Y79536 ?

----------


## torzio

> First names: Edward Franciszek
> Surname: Prokowski
> Place of birth: CHOCIWEL 
> Date of birth: 30-05-1955
> Father's name: Mieczysław .....................20/5/1925- 19/1/1962
> Mother's name: Genowefa 
> 
> from Stettin
> 
> ...



1 am not a match anymore with the above ..........

*Assumed shared SNPs (31)

CTS10137/Z43775, M11810, PF1346, PF476, Y349954, Y349960, Y349970, Y349971, Y349976, Z19943, CTS8489, Y264433, Y349949, Y349950, Y349951, Y349952, Y349953, Y349955, Y349969, Y349977, Z19949, Z19951, FGC3448, FT184767, Z19912, Z26593, Y325131, BY37593/Y135237, M8325, PF574, PF588*

so I am on my own ATM under the new snp Y79536

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## Huracan

> so I am on my own ATM under the new snp Y79536


To my understanding, you cannot be the only one in a new branch. A minimum of 2 people must share the rare/previously-private SNP to have it become a new branch. Looking at the FTDNA BigY block tree I see another person that is also Y79536+ but they have unknown origin. Perhaps it is one of the Sioen/Sion lines you mentioned before that are SK1480+? The SK1480+ from the France_93_Montreuli FTDNA project shows as Y79536+ and do not report their country of origin.

Attachment 13652
Attachment 13653

----------


## torzio

> To my understanding, you cannot be the only one in a new branch. A minimum of 2 people must share the rare/previously-private SNP to have it become a new branch. Looking at the FTDNA BigY block tree I see another person that is also Y79536+ but they have unknown origin. Perhaps it is one of the Sioen/Sion lines you mentioned before that are SK1480+? The SK1480+ from the France_93_Montreuli FTDNA project shows as Y79536+ and do not report their country of origin.
> 
> Attachment 13652
> Attachment 13653



from my understanding..................you cannot be created from scratch as being the only one in a new branch................but once established, you can end up being the only one in a new branch..................maybe you are correct as I still sit in a group of 4.

I cannot open your attachments

Sion is not in my group ( i cannot see his marker anymore in any site except the one you mentioned )..........thanks for info 

I have an italian
A pole ...who I chat with regularly and his tree states Dutch origin , Hansetic league

A czechia ................who is in USA, ..............he is new

and one new in Yfull ...........from old Stettin Poland of German origin ( Bavaria more so than Hesse )

others in Yfull ..........is italian from Trentino

others you know about......belgiums, germans, english and irish

----------


## torzio

more on Sion/Sioen 

I found many *Sion* in Trieste Italy ...ie

Name	Santa Wagnest (born Sion)
Birth	Feb 20 1922
Trieste, Italia
Marriage	Marriage to: Ubaldo, Giuseppe, Ernesto Wagnest
Mar 10 1940
Trieste, Italia


and *Sioen* ....I found mostly in Belgium

Also Sion in Marche and Campania regions in Italy

----------


## torzio

The T-SK1480 person with surname Sion is part of the french project

Sion appears in small numbers in Lorraine France and Belgium ................the majority of Sion is in Italy ....eg another example

Catarina Lisi (born Sion )Birth1789 - Pietravairano, Caserta, Campania, Italy

DeathSep 29 1867 - Pietravairano, Caserta, Campania, Italy

Parents - Serafino Sion, Maria Sion (born Massarotti in Ravenna)

Husband- Eraclio Lisi


The surname Sioen is not seen in Italy and seen only in the low countries (walloon etc )

----------


## Huracan

> ...but once established, you can end up being the only one in a new branch...


Yes as is the case for me in my YFull designation of T-FTA50528 when I was grouped with the Dutch tester from Nebula Genomics whose kit then disappeared and left me as the single FTA50528+.

----------


## torzio

> Yes as is the case for me in my YFull designation of T-FTA50528 when I was grouped with the Dutch tester from Nebula Genomics whose kit then disappeared and left me as the single FTA50528+.



we see each other in Yfull .............I am also now on my own

----------


## Trubo

Hello. I got T-L446 (BY63685) and I come from the Balkans. Is there anyone from the same group I could talk to?

----------


## Huracan

> Hello. I got T-L446 (BY63685) and I come from the Balkans. Is there anyone from the same group I could talk to?


Welcome @Trubo,

Are you the Serbian sample on YFull? (I got this tree view by clicking "Live" at the top)

Screenshot 2022-11-14 at 5.28.58 PM.jpg

----------


## torzio

> Hello. I got T-L446 (BY63685) and I come from the Balkans. Is there anyone from the same group I could talk to?



There are 3 of us with T-L446......which is the branch T1a2-L131 group .....you make 4

----------


## torzio

> Welcome @Trubo,
> 
> Are you the Serbian sample on YFull? (I got this tree view by clicking "Live" at the top)
> 
> Screenshot 2022-11-14 at 5.28.58 PM.jpg



That one is a person who originates in Montenegro and moved to Kosovo

----------


## Trubo

Yes I am that person from Kosovo. I am from an ethnic group "Gorani" to be more precize. 
I am not the person who originates in Montenegro, he is from another branch.

----------


## torzio

> Yes I am that person from Kosovo. I am from an ethnic group "Gorani" to be more precize. 
> I am not the person who originates in Montenegro, he is from another branch.



Ok ................so what huracan posted is yourself ?



Do you match with any another T-L446 persons with who you tested with.........maybe one named Lorik Cana ( famous footballer ) who married a woman from Milan Italy .............

----------


## torzio

> Yes I am that person from Kosovo. I am from an ethnic group "Gorani" to be more precize. 
> I am not the person who originates in Montenegro, he is from another branch.



Many of the Gorani muslim Kosovo group came via the Feyli Kurds during the ottoman period ...................this was spoken about on this site in 2013

stated was.......they came via Luristan, kermanshah and Ilam provinces.

and the Ydna from these Feylis are of R1b, R1a and T.

----------


## Trubo

Yes it's me. I have a distant match with the German person from the same branch (Hans Caspar Gräßer). 
Lorik Cana is from another branch as well (T-CTS933) so I am not related to him.

Regarding the Kurdish Goranis, as far as I know such migrations never happened. We have nothing in common except for the religion and the name which derived from our region called Gora which means highlands in our language. We are not very different from the rest of the surrounding populations.

----------


## torzio

> Yes it's me. I have a distant match with the German person from the same branch (Hans Caspar Gräßer). 
> Lorik Cana is from another branch as well (T-CTS933) so I am not related to him.
> 
> Regarding the Kurdish Goranis, as far as I know such migrations never happened. We have nothing in common except for the religion and the name which derived from our region called Gora which means highlands in our language. We are not very different from the rest of the surrounding populations.



Thanks

I spoke with Claude about his ancestor a few months ago on facebook

*Hans Caspar Gräßer; b 1660 and d. 1744 from Germany....................is T- L446
His grandson Johann Christoph came to Canada during the American revolution.

Claude Cregheur is related to the above Hans ( he is french-canadian ) he is T-BY60439. His paternal ancestors are from Thüringen, Germany.* 


are you on FtDna ?

----------


## torzio

all these below are related as per FtDna

----------


## Trubo

No I am not on FtDna, but I have seen that list.

----------


## torzio

from the T project team on my new Y79536

*Y79536 was previously an equivalent to SK1480 , it still is on Discover which is a week behind the live FTDNA tree. 
Bernard Kohout is SK1480+ but Y79536- so the SNPs are no longer equivalent.*


T-Y79536's paternal line was formed when it branched off from the ancestor T-SK1480 and the rest of mankind around 1250 BCE.
Age of Y79536 is 1100 BCE.

----------


## Salento

> from the T project team on my new Y79536
> *Y79536 was previously an equivalent to SK1480 , it still is on Discover which is a week behind the live FTDNA tree. 
> Bernard Kohout is SK1480+ but Y79536- so the SNPs are no longer equivalent.*
> T-Y79536's paternal line was formed when it branched off from the ancestor T-SK1480 and the rest of mankind around 1250 BCE.
> Age of Y79536 is 1100 BCE.


yfull has about twenty-one Y349970 (SK1480) downstream SNPs, I'm negative for one of them, I don't know about the others.

…. see the highlighted SNP in the last yfull line:




… my Yseq SNPs:

----------


## torzio

> yfull has about twenty-one Y349970 (SK1480) downstream SNPs, I'm negative for one of them, I don't know about the others.
> 
> …. see the highlighted SNP in the last yfull line:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> … my Yseq SNPs:



i am negative for the same one

Is this to confirm that *you are not aligned with the ukraine guy* .......whose father was polish from the german stettin area of poland ..................their origins are northern Bavarian ...........I already presented their line previously

only 30 surnames of this guy appears in Poland ...............bulk are in Bavaria and next is Hesse Germany

----------


## Salento

> i am negative for the same one
> Is this to confirm that *you are not aligned with the ukraine guy* .......whose father was polish from the german stettin area of poland ..................their origins are northern Bavarian ...........I already presented their line previously
> only 30 surnames of this guy appears in Poland ...............bulk are in Bavaria and next is Hesse Germany


I'm saying that if the highlighted SNP is equivalent to the Y264435 grouping, than SK1480 is still my final.

----------


## torzio

> I'm saying that if the highlighted SNP is equivalent to the Y264435 grouping, than SK1480 is still my final.


if you are positive for Y79536 , then that is your marker .............if you are not positive then its Sk1480

Yfull does not use Y79536 ............so that is what is confusing

You cannot be Y264435 as you are negative for Y32531

----------


## Salento

> if you are positive for Y79536 , then that is your marker .............if you are not positive then its Sk1480
> Yfull does not use Y79536 ............so that is what is confusing
> You cannot be Y264435 as you are negative for Y32531


… it is confusing … You said that you are negative for the highlighted SNP too (Y32531) … maybe there are two groups below SK1480.

----------


## torzio

> … it is confusing … You said that you are negative for the highlighted SNP too (Y32531) … maybe there are two groups below SK1480.



this is my unknown match



he is

IN68942 Unknown Origin T-Y79536
in 
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

----------


## torzio

The Sion line goes back to

Valerien Sion born ? .......married Catherine Mallet in 1635 in *Camphin En Carembault, 59133, Nord, FRANCE*

had a son named Philippe who married on 2 May 1703, Ronchin, 59790, Nord, FRANCE, to Catherine VEU

----------


## torzio

@salento

this will make you happy 

SION surname in majority is in puglia

https://www.cognomix.it/origine-cognome/sion.php

----------


## torzio

SNP Tracker as of 27 november has T-SK1480 as being in Trieste in the bronze age

----------


## torzio

snp tracker also splits T-CTS1848 heading to old southern East Germany in the bronze-age

----------


## torzio

> SNP Tracker as of 27 november has T-SK1480 as being in Trieste in the bronze age

----------


## torzio

keep getting links with the Caus/Cauz family in Brazil .............origins italy

Antichissima famiglia originaria di Venezia. Uno dei suoi rappresentanti fu eletto a doge tra il 756 e il 757. Di questo doge si sa ben poco: fedelissimo di Diodato, lo tradì all'avvento dei Franchi, ma appena Desiderio, l'ultimo re Longobardo, riprese temporaneamente il sopravvento, fece la fine che meritava. Nel giro di un anno, tra il 756 e il 757, raggiunse e perse il potere, abbacinato e scacciato come il suo precedessore. Alcuni cronisti assegnano a questa famiglia il cognome Lupanio, altri quello di Gaulo; secondo un'antica tradizione, sarebbe il capostipite della famiglia Barozzi. Fu costume delle più antiche famiglie, le quali dopo la caduta del Romano Imperio, in quella inondatione de' Barbari, havendo i loro cognomi, sicome gli studi, e altre cose belle smarrito e restati solo con semplici nomi, trarre di nuovo i loro cognomi, e il loro casato da' nomi proprii paterni, e de' maggiori. ...

found in italy only in Vicenza, Lecce, Gorizia and L'Aquilia ( among the T1a ydna town area )

Claucir CAUS (kukicaus) language italian
VITOR AGUIRRE CAUS

Antonio Cauz
Birth	Oct 4 1883
Death	July 15 1965
Aviano, Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italia

and

Antonio Caus
Gender	Male
Birth	1809
Ospedaletto, Istrana, Treviso, Veneto, Itália
Death	1885
Ospedaletto, Istrana, Treviso, Veneto, Itália

----------


## Salento

maybe it’s nothing, but:
… about Lupanio: Lupiae = Lecce
… about Caus: Franco Causio from Lecce, World Cup Champion, aka: Il Barone (The Baron)

----------


## torzio

too many that match me
Luigi Caus
Birth Nov 20 1864 - Caneva, Pordenone, Friuli Venezia Giulia, Itália
Death Dec 11 1932 - Porto Feliz, São Paulo, Brasil
Parents Giovanni Caus, Lucia Caus (nascida Maluta)
.................................................. ...............
Parents Luigi Caus
Birth Venezia, Itália
Wife Thereza Caus (nascida Versolato)
.................................................. ................
Eugenia Crema (born Caus)
Birth July 4 1878 - Arcade, Veneto, Itália
Death Feb 14 1945 - Lapa
Parents Marco Caus, Joanna Caus (nascida Genin)
.................................................. .........
Andrea Cauz
Birth June 12 1867 - Caneva (Pordenone)
Death Dec 8 1973 - Sacile (Pordenone)
Parents Domenico Cauz, Maria Cauz (nata Carlotto)
.................................................. ..........
I have access to Sacile and Arcade birth records......I will take a look later

----------


## torzio

still states zero stars .........the only one that has this
there where 68 reads ...........all 68C

----------


## torzio

4 modern ( ie, last 100 or so years ) of T1a in the croatian island of Lussin ...........I already presented one before....Domenic Carles ( T1a1 ).............last surname Carles I found was in 1607 in Vazzola Veneto......the name has since change to Carlesso , many of these

I will try to get the other names and ydna

----------

