# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

## Besir Bajrami

> \
> I sence again that you imply albanian decent from Illyrians, there is no continuation, I'm sorry. Albanian started to appear and were recorded in the middel ages, not before. 
> Just another nationalist.


This part of your post, is *provocative, outside the topic* (and makes me to react... in this way the topic deviates),and it's continuation of the* propaganda* that some of the southern slavs and new greeks, not not convenient the albanian autochthony, for millions of devouring reasons. The administrators should take action when we found these kind of deviations, thus promote long explanations (from another member), to make the "question" clear, and what is not related directly whith the topic!
 I tried to post here some of the objectives of this propaganda, but administrators here, could not have been withheld from the gruesome sight of the bitter of that albanian reality (That's why, now I will not post photo from the massacres of children, the elderly and Albanian womens, from the albanian "neighbors" (south slavs and new greeks).

 In this topic, i give you so many arguments (from international studies), against your way of thinking http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page7 ...but simply, you're not interested sincerely about this question and you dont even read anything in this direction.
But, let's leave in a side international scientists, tell me from who you want materials, from free slavic scholars, or Greek (the only two albanian neighbors, who still devolop a propganda against albanian autochthony, because they still have pretense to take more from this small remaining land of the Albanians, or if it possible to assimilate all the Albanians what are still left, because their identity creates much problems about the monopoly of historical glory, that is created onerously!

Ok let's give you a synthesis:) ...one book from a slavic and greek researcher in the same time.
"The Albanians are generally considered to be the most ancient ethnic group in Southeastern Europe. They are the descendants of pre-Hellenic stock that was pushed back into the mountains of the western Balkans by the Hellenes and the Slavs. In this respect the Albanians may be compared to the Celts of the British Isles who were forced into the mountains of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland by the Anglo-Saxon invaders. The Albanian language is organically distinct from the neighboring Slavic and Greek languages in the same manner that the Celtic language is different from the Germanic".
The Balkans since 1453, Leften Stavros Stavrianos, Traian Stoianovich, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2008, p. 496-497

A fragment of the above in a concise manner that includes the thousands years of the Albanian Odyssey. One of the authors is slav and the other from a greek. Both were educated in the U.S. increased, while the Balkan and its bloody history has been the vocation of their historical research. 
I Chose exactly why these two historians is their impartiality, meaning the lack of nationalist passions, of whom suffer no less from their colleagues in south slavis states and Greece.
Now, I dont want to make you a list of so much other well known slavic and greek scientists, who came to the same scientific conclusions (like the albanolog Milan Sufflay, who was killed by serbs, only because of his work about albanian autochtony... Einstein was the one who reacted more for his murder), because you are not a person who have a free mind, to accept facts and argument. You simply don't read. I gave you a lot of books in the links above, but but it is vain. You are simply a spamer and a pseudo nationalist. From people like you, science has suffered too much!

But it's interesting to know that albanians who attempt to argues or to clash whith someone like you, is not nationalism, but is simple REACTION, not ACTION. All the albanian philosophy is reaction, not action. And only reacion enabled us to survive, no matter that we are the bigest loosers in the World history until today, in relation of prerequisites that how we had to be. "Albanian nationalism" in itself, is neither more nor less than simply the national awareness that, in comparison with that of other nations, for besides that it is not predatory, or dangerous, it is so unique and also very controversial, that can not clearly define how the Albanian ethnocentrism, in itself mean multiculturalism (globalization / Khalifa), which is reflected in all components of social culture, to religion. This phenomenon undoubtedly has to do with being Albanian, as the older extract the creation of humanity and deep in our subconscious, all mankind may perceive as a 'nation' alone or 'fellow'.

- And yes, I agree that Balkan nationalism is the worst!
Only for south slavs, and greeks and any individual (not a free scientist) around the world, who has an emotional affinity with these nations, is a problem to accept the fact that albanians are autochthon in this region and they(alb) are there before them. Greeks started to accept the ties of albanians whith illyrians, thracians & epirotes, but they dont accept the ties of albanians whith pelasgians, because than the credits of this well known greek historic glory all around the world, will be presented by these poor and 'underdeveloped' people = shqiptars (sons of the eagle). That's why Greece wanted the region of south Albanian whith at any cost, and they pay the poor albanians in this region (provide pensions) to declaire themselfs today as a greek, because they know that this region and the ancient culture what still survived among these people, is the heart of pelasgian civilisation, and as a result, that region rised the glory of ancient greeks, which is presented today by milion of manipulation, by this religion state (not a national state) of Greece today, what was created by the european powers, after the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire. This orthodox state of Greece and north orthodox Serbia, was created on the occupied territories of Albanians who accepted Islam. So, the creation of these states, was a revenge against those Albanians, who thought that the better way to deal whith slavic invasions, was the alliance with the Turks, but with the condition of autonomy, to preserve the national idenditity. In the same way, some albanians thought to make an alliance whith the germans, italians... in brief, this "foundling" nation of Europe, whith no sisters, brothers, parents and childrens, like every nation around has, who survived and preserved in the mountains in Balkans, from permanent invasions, the original ancient identity of this region.
In the other hand, free scientists tell us that illyrians, thracian, epirotes or macedonians (like thraco-illyrian combination), in fact are pelasgians, and for greeks, this race was barbarian (foreign).
But finally, as some greeks accept the ancient origin of albanians and ties whith illyrian, thracian and epirot culture whith albanian, they also today accept that new greek state, was created from the albanian orthodox blood who prefer to call them self helens, and other muslim albanian preserve their authentic identity(language, symbols, culture at all) as a shqiptar (sons of the eagle-pelasgian): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p98D7Fql1Dk

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5968696_n.jpg 
Greek constitution in 1821
This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1227707_n.jpg
Here is translated in english:
http://i55.tinypic.com/29qjyuu.jpg
...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.
Also, just like in north, north-west and north-east of the Balkans, that catholic and othodox albanians were assimilated from south slavic population, also in south too othodox albanians were assimilated in greeks, and become more greek, than other races what were inhabites the Greece in that time (vlachs, mongols, slavs, ethiopians...) And when an albanian become slav, or greek, than he did not have that normative or moral code agains enemy, or culture of behavior like an albanian, and with that specific energy and that anger from permanent suffering, that characterizes this nation, they (assimilated albanians), when they felt themselves as Greek, Slavic, turk... they have led the wars against its remaining Albanians who survived from assimilations (because albanians are know like a brave soilders). But, when an original albanian, never take part in the massacres. They have a high moral code in these questions:
Dr. Alexander Lambert: (Europe sabotage albanian history in the nineteenth century, when Illyria was called the Balkans)
Europe should be proud to have in her bosom the Albanian nation, which should be evaluated as more tolerant ... there is no case that the Albanians in any moment of history they are no recognized as a nation that has attacked other nations and they never did not take part in the massacres. It is known that the Albanians have to shame to kill an enemy who surrenders... and that many Albanians have excellent running if the empire, whether other countries. Likewise, in his other Albanians have left their name in different fields of sciences in various countries of the world... 
Anyway, do not expand more my explanation, let's speak now for slavs:

- South slavs are more frustrated from the autochthony of albanians. Today, croatians, slovenians, and some bosnians and bullgarians, accept that original identity of ancient cultures and peoples of this region, is presented today by albanians (shqiptars=sons of the eagle), even that in their population is a large percent of ancient people, who were assimilated by south slavs, but serbs and slavo-macedonians, still don't accept this simple fact, because they still pretend to continue tp occupied or dissolve this small albanian territory what is left (populated by Albanians who continue to resist assimilation), because they wanted their sea. And they worked permanently with their pseudo academics, to atack the conclusions from international free scientists,institutes and institutions of world renown, they are trying to deviate the conlusions of ancient writers also, fabricate new ridiculous stories, deny and tried to stop any presentation of Albanian culture internationally (in that region where Slavic invaders operated), and they work hard permanently in this direction.
Simply, they used the lack of albanian state, institutions, and interest about these questions, because the primar task about albanians was and maybe still is, TO SURVIVE! - And for albanians, all scientific work in this direction, was realized from free international scientist, who have not had reason or interest from them, to favored this nation that went to extinction (and still is in the same risk).
Today, for international scientist is no primary task to prevent the albanian history, that's why in internet still is evident the south slavic and greek propaganda. Albanian institutions still dont wory about these questions, their interes is only the politics and money... but whith a few young albanian people today who know to read and thanks to internet (again not our institutions) that allows us access to the books of international scientists, we will re-inform the world, to unmask this racism, pseudo-nationalism against my unfortunate people.
Finally, we have records of the arrival of south slavs for the first time in these areas...
Also, we have records of arrival of ancient, and new greeks for the first time in these areas...
But:
http://oi53.tinypic.com/jhcvf5.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg

If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tPE...ed=0CCsQ6AEwAA
...
Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg
... and thousends of books, from international free scientists, institutes and institutions of world renown until today, that meet, with different methods of study, that are adding more books and conclusions of this level, and now i read somone like you, who even didn't now nothing about this people, to make conclusions whith dry words, whithout any contra argument. This is what i call pseudo nationalis, racism, hate...
Read in this topic some of arguments from the method of comparison in lingiustic, DNA, folk elements, symbols, physic anthropology, and the culture at all of these people. If you are interested in this question, you should read the two sides, the propaganda, and the international studies in the other side, and make your approach:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page6 


*- This is the goal of the refusal of Albanian autochthony... and this is what I call racism, pseudo nationalism, unhuman behavior, or actions without any human or moral code... only to disappeared from the earth this survived "foundling" nation of Europe, whith no sisters, brothers, parents and childrens, like every nation around has, who survived and preserved in the mountains in Balkans, from permanent invasions, the original ancient identity of this region... only for serbs to have access in the sea!:*
In all maps, albanians are a result of expensions (invasions). We have survival history and as you go deeper in time, will see that our territory is larger. Restriction (contraction) of our territory is continuous occurrence since prehistory, we can't boast with any map, except the oldest ones that comfort us a little bit (because contraction is lower).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9&l=2734f5e6e0

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...18031154_n.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba...%281861%29.jpg

Genocide against Albanians
- Death Toll: 120,000 – 270,000 Albanians of both sexes and all ages.
255,878 Albanians expelled.
- Genocide against Albanians in the First Yugoslavia
- DR. V. CUBRILOVIC
THE EXPULSION OF THE ALBANIANS
Memorandum presented
on March 7, 1937
in Belgrade
- The Expulsion of the Albanians
- The Problem of Colonization of the Southern Regions
- The International Problems of Colonization
- The Mode of Evacuation
- The Organization of the Evacuation
- Depopulating and Repopulating Regions
- The Colonization Apparatus
http://espressostalinist.wordpress.c...nian-genocide/
Memorandum of Serbian Head of state on asimilation and expultion of Albanians from Kingdom of Serbes Kroat Slovenes
https://www.facebook.com/notes/mirsa...52432388186718
GENOCIDE AGAINST ALBANIANS (Kosovo)
GRAPHIC CONTENTS: Some of the 15 bodies of ethnic Albanians, what have been massacred, are seen in the village of Obrija, in the Drenica area southwest of Pristina, Yugoslavia, Tuesday Sept. 29 1998. Tensions between Serbs and Albanians were stoked with the discovery of 15 Albanian men, women and children _ apparently refugees _ who were shot in the back of the head at a makeshift camp. They were massacred by the Serbs on Sunday. There was no immediate Serb response. The bodies were seen by diplomats from the United States and other countries visiting some of the estimated 275,000 refugees driven from their homes in the seven-month crackdown. (AP Photo/Adam Brown) AP - (I can't post the photo!)
THIS CHILD WHAT IS SEEN IN PHOTO IS VALMIR ADEM DELIU- ONE YEAR CHILD massacred by SERBS
(I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
Massacre in upper Arbri of Drenica - September 26, 1998
https://www.facebook.com/media
(I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
KOSOVO: Ethnic Cleansing redux
http://www.zeriyt.com/kosovo-ethnic-...t27054.15.html


(...and "albanian nationalism" if it exist at all, was and is a REACTION, not a ACTION... Dr. Alexander Lambert: Europe should be proud to have in her bosom the Albanian nation, which should be evaluated as more tolerant ... there is no case that the Albanians in any moment of history they are no recognized as a nation that has attacked other nations and they never did not take part in the massacres. It is known that the Albanians have to shame to kill an enemy who surrenders...
And this is a REACION that makes us to survive and in this time too: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3728697_n.jpg )

Greek Genocide Against the Albanians (there were involved and albanians othodox who became more greek than the greeks and still today the orthodox albanians, declaire themself as a greek, to live better in Greece like a greek)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_b1vUeML1YN...+ne+cameri.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_b1vUeML1YN...E/S230/169.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b1vUeML1YN...U/S230/171.jpg
http://diatribe-column.blogspot.com/...am-chumps.html
http://chameria.blogspot.com/
http://www.illyrians.org/genonc.html
Albania's Golgotha
The atrocities committed by the Serbs against the Albanians at the present time are not different from those perpetrated in 1912-1913, as described in Albania's Golgotha.
http://www.alb-net.com/juka1.htm
Here (Drenica) are massacred 147 Albanian, all old men, women and children
(I can't post the photo from the massacre, because of the disallowance from the administrators)
Mass migration of Albanians in Turkey
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._7826581_n.jpg
From 'Naçertanie' Ilia Garashaninit - 1844 
Genocide against Albanians
Masakra e Tivarit
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6405533_n.jpg
Genocide against Albanians
Masacre of Tivar after ww2 in Montenegro ~4300 albanians killed
Genocide against Albanians
KOSOVO CRISIS 
*[Mod edit: Please do not copy and paste entire articles from the Internet. Use summaries and links instead. The article Besir refers to can be located here.]*

Now, let's speak about ancient macedonians... stop this approach and talk scientifically, whith historical arguments, whith "cold" head, whithout hate, with patriotism, but whithout pseduo nationalism... learn to behave like a valuable HUMAN ('The human' this is a big word I think)... people are not toys!

----------


## zanipolo

@Besir Bajrami

You are a very confusing individual...........2/3 weeks ago you get me to translate one of you documents and it says Albanians are ancient Molossians and not something else. It siad Molossians. Are you not satified with this ?

Do you have any idea or any clue what you are aiming for ?...........you know you need to aim for the truth even if it is against the propaganda that you where raised/taught .

I will not reply to you anymore when you place multi attachments.

----------


## Yetos

The thread is About Makedonians,

now if you also consider Makedonians Albanians then no comment,

try to understand that truth is above propaganda,

no body denies the existance of Albanians, 
but from that to Albanians from italy to Japan is very far,
now if your problem is Kossyfo then suitable threads exists,

----------


## Besir Bajrami

@ Zanipolo
I see that you can't make a difference about a single tribe, belonging to a more inclusive culture and being presented with their name (whith other tribes in common too).
*Here* you have the answer about your dilemma 2/3 weeks ago.
It's interesting how you remember that wonderfull piece of book, and not all other books that I posted about you. It's imported to understand that all these books are telling the same thing. From the ancient writers... from the beginning of the period of illumination in Europe (when europeans began to make a lot of scientific studies, to understand the truth of ancient Europe, without being influenced by nationalism)... to today.
For example only from german scientists, who make the same conclusions about albanians, from the albanolgy (using the method of comparison of languages, ethymology...); latter and from anthropolgy (physic, today and genetic too); archeology; symbolism; and all other elements of a culture at all... are:
G. V. Jajbnic;
J. G. Herder;
J. Thunman;
F. Bop;
J. R. von Xylander;
J. G. von Hahn;
J. F. Fallmerayer;
T. Momsen;
P. Kretchmer;
H. Fromer;
P. R. Franke...

But I think you are an italian. Ok except that book about Molossians, try this one: “Rivista di studi politici internazionali, Volume 60”
Giacinto Bosco, Florence. Facoltà di scienze politiche "Cesare Alfieri.", Università di Firenze. Studio fiorentino di politica estera
Sansoni, 1993 >
"La storia non manipolata prova infatti che il territorio chiamato in serbo Kosovo, e con tale nome ormai accettato internazionalmente, fin dalle epoche più remote, molto prima anche della discesa delle tribù elleniche, era abitato dagli Illiri (ilir = libero), i cui eredi diretti sono noti oggi come Albanesi."
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...6_524923_n.jpg

Just tell me if you want other books from italian scientists who have written about these people (from ancient times, to today). Or from other french, english, american, even slavic & greek scientist

+ something to remind:
Victoria magazine, Volume 9
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4973691_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...9_545192_n.jpg
A companion to Latin studies
Sir John Edwin Sandys
Cambridge University Press, 1913 (second edit.)
(By the way, he is talking about these Thraco-Illyrian... and now Albanian tatoos http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5)

The Trojans also spoke a kind of Illyrian dialect, and through them several Illyrian words came into Greek.
pp.116
[...]
According to Kretschmer the recessive accent of Hellenes is due to Panellenes (also in the second book of the Iliad); it was originally *Hellanes. Now –anes is certainly a non-Greek, Illyrian suffix, as can be seen clearly from the names of the Agrianes, Athamanes, Akarnanes, Atintanes, Arktanes, Enchelanes (or better, Engelanes)...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._2266786_n.jpg

Albanian > Greek
Albanian (Etruscan) > Latin
*Europe, Stanford's compendium of geogr. and travel*
*Frederick William Rudler, George Goudie Chisholm*
*Andrew Crombie Ramsay (sir)*

*London, Edward Standford, 55, Charing Cross, S.W*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...92396591_n.jpg
*(+ ...before it had split https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...7_586144_n.jpg... that means Albanian = Pelasgian*
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3&l=121558727c*)
*
+
Epeirotes and Macedonian languages ​​belong to the Illyrian family, Pelasgian, today Albanian, the language of Skipetarian (or Arvanite/Arnaut/Arbresh/Arber/n)
*The Genesis of the earth and of man *: or, The history of creation, and the antiquity and races of mankind considered on Biblical and other grounds* *Edward William Lane*
*Reginald Stuart Poole*
*Edition 2*
*Williams and Norgate*
...

or:
These people are generally and in all probability accurately identified as the result of the combination of the ancient Illyrians, Macedonians, and Epirotes, who were all the descendants of the more ancient Pelasgians.
*The American review of reviews, Volume 47 - Albert Shaw - Review of Reviews, 1913*

Recent French research on the Etruscans suggests that the Albanians could well be the descendants of the Pelasgians, a related race inhabiting the Balkans many centuries before the arrival of the Greeks.
p.304
*The Geographical magazine, Volume 36*
*Michael Huxley*
*Geographical Press, 1963*

*+* 
We are able to trace with tolerable certainty the long series of historical transformations by which the ancient Epirotes, Illyrians, and Macedonians, were reborn during the Middle Ages into the modern Albanian race.
[...]
Now it was, however, that the Illyrians and men of Epirus constituted a breakwater against the floods. For a long time they maintained a defensive attitude against the Teutonic and Slavonic races on the north and west. At length the Mohammedans came in from the East, and the people whom we may now call Albanians had to face about and defend themselves against Islam. The Turks made little headway against this resolute enemy. A popular leader appeared in the celebrated George Castriota, whom the Turks called Scanderbeg. Time and again Mohammed II, after his conquest of Constantinople, set his armies against the Albanians, only to suffer defeat at their hands.
[...]
This is to say that the modern Greeks and the Albanians are at the end of the twigs of the first branch of the Aryan tree which we have been considering.
[...]
Thus we have presented for our consideration the modern Greek and Albanian races as the repre sentatives of the first division of the old Aryan family of mankind.
*Ridpath's history of the world - Ridpath, John Clark, Volume: 2 - New York, Merrill & Baker*

Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
*Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)*
*Dorothy Margaret Vaughan* 
*AMS Press, 1976*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg

Albanians are the oldest race in Europe - older than Latin and Greek populations
*The Biblical world, Volume 41
*
*William Rainey Harper, Ernest De Witt Burton, Shailer Mathews*
*Composed and Printed By The University of Chicago Press Chicago, Illinois. U.S.A.*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5296689_n.jpg

Albanian language is the most ancient tongue in Europe and is the mother of latin and greek...
Thus pressed back, the Illyrian, Epirote and Macedonian clans consolidated themselfs in what modern geography knows as Albania...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6004692_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...8_934157_n.jpg
*National Geographic: vol 59*

UP to the present time the Albanians have been looked upon in Europe as the ferocious auxiliaries of the Turks and to them have been imputed the crimes which desolate the orient, but the fact is that matters are very different.
*If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians* and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
In the whole of Macedonia the Albanian language is spoken and the villages of Janina and Scutari are alone peopled by Albanians.
p.587
*Public opinion, Volume 34*
*The Public Opinion Co.,* 
*Princeton University*

*The Encyclopaedia Britannica*
http://oi53.tinypic.com/jhcvf5.jpg

*Alber Pike*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg

Also, Skipetar blood must be found far south of the present Skipetar area, even as Bask (Iberic) blood is to be found in the non-Iberic parts of Spain and Portugal and France.
Page 351
*The Encyclopaedia Britannica, or Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and General Literature: Ent - Fra, Volume 9, Edition 8*
*Adam and Charles Black, Edinburgh, MDCCCLV*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4276547_n.jpg

Tumalare ancient tombs in Greece as those of Theroic roy heroic; their denomination comes from Albanian language...
*The Journal of Hellenic studies*
*Autori: Society for the Promotion of Hellenic Studies (London, England)*
*Volume: 2,
*
*London : Published by the Council of the Society*
_KRAUS REPRINT_ 
_Nendeln/Liechtenstein 1971 Germany_
_https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6989610_n.jpg_
_...
_
Albania is the only country in the Balkan region where the feeling of nationality appears to be independent of religion
*The East end of Europe: The report of an unofficial mission to the European provinces of Turkey on the eve of the revolution* 
*Allen Upward, J. Murray*

Albanians remain today unchanged representatives of prehistoric Pelasgians
*America and the great war for humanity and freedom*
*Johnson, Willis Fletcher*
*Philadelphia, The John C. Winston company*

Almost the entire population of Eleusis is Albanian and speak Albanian - a language quite different from the Greek language, and which is claimed by many, to be a descendant of the ancient Pelasgian language. It is still the language of the nation in Albania (Epirus), the country in which the Pelasgian Zeus was worshiped.
*"Greece and the Greeks" -tr.[from Lifvet i gamla verden] by M. Howitt-Fredrika Bremer*
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._7498786_n.jpg


The true history of mankind will be written only when Albanians participate in its writing
*Maximilian Lambertz*
*Albanien erzählt: ein Einblick in die albanische Literatur. Übersetzt und herausgegeben. Literatur der Volksdemokratien, 7
(Berlin: Volk und Welt)
191 pp.*
...and so many other scientific conclusions, which come as a result of the methods mentioned above.


@Yetos (former iapetoc)
First, try to read all my post, to understand why you saw the name Kosovo there (there are and materials about new greeks too). Not only to reply about a single word. By the way, you have serious problem whith the perception of history at all. You want only to reach the attention here, by denying everything. You use the fact that the truth is not absolute, and you abuse whith this relativity of the truth, by denying everything, even the name or existence of a nation at all.


__________________________________
More  precisely about ancient Macedonia
(Attention: These are not empty words, influenced by nationalism, but are international studies that have not had reason to become an instrument of nationalism for this small, poor and suffered nation, called "sons of the eagle")

*... and what about ancient Macedonia ?
*
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1f8bcdeead

- Albanians are not like slavo-macedonians to offend the other ethnic groups just for chauvinistic pourpouses. We have nothing against the greeks, they are our neigbours and if we want to be respected we must show some dignity not to fall in the same level of slavo-macedonians. The real enemies stand behind what is called "greek nation". These people mostly living in mount Athos and in some government buildings are the real people who need a DNA test. I bet the result would be: blood from another solar-system.

----------


## zanipolo

> @ Zanipolo
> I see that you can't make a difference about a single tribe, belonging to a more inclusive culture and being presented with their name (whith other tribes in common too).
> *Here* you have the answer about your dilemma 2/3 weeks ago.
> It's interesting how you remember that wonderfull piece of book, and not all other books that I posted about you. It's imported to understand that all these books are telling the same thing. From the ancient writers... from the beginning of the period of illumination in Europe (when europeans began to make a lot of scientific studies, to understand the truth of ancient Europe, without being influenced by nationalism)... to today.
> For example only from german scientists, who make the same conclusions about albanians, from the albanolgy (using the method of comparison of languages, ethymology...); latter and from anthropolgy (physic, today and genetic too); archeology; symbolism; and all other elements of a culture at all... are:
> G. V. Jajbnic;
> J. G. Herder;
> J. Thunman;
> F. Bop;
> ...


you are still confused....your *here* link goes to some sites saying the albanians of skantanberg where epirotes
your Italian link saying nothing, it says in the area once lived illyrians and the people now in kosovo are SIMILAR to albanians.

you have major nationalistic issues which is making you post so many things which contradict each other.

Let me say ..If you believe the albanians where original people in the albanian area, then ALL I have found is that albanians in the ancient times where either Epirotes or Molossians ( maybe a bit of both) ........the original homeland was in the Pindus mountains. 

The name Albanoi was first mentioned by Roman historians in 100AD ( BCE) , so completly non-illyrian as the area mentioned was non-illyrian area...........secondly , illyrians never reached the Pindus mountains.

Between the Illyrians and Helles /greeks where the Epirotes, molossians, dorians, macedonians, dardanians ............where does the albanians fit in?

Trojans as far as I know spoke Luwian.

Is Pelagasian a people or a linguistic dialect/language spoken by many different races?

so, if you can make it clear who you beleive the albanians are we can check

----------


## Besir Bajrami

> you are still confused....your *here* link goes to some sites saying the albanians of skantanberg where epirotes


Yes, and so what is wrong whith that ?!




> your Italian link saying nothing, it says in the area once lived illyrians and the people now in kosovo are SIMILAR to albanians.


Please stop deviating the words !
The link there is saying:
Italian:
"La storia non manipolata prova infatti che il territorio chiamato in serbo Kosovo, e con tale nome ormai accettato internazionalmente, fin dalle epoche più remote, molto prima anche della discesa delle tribù elleniche, era abitato dagli Illiri (ilir = libero), i cui eredi diretti sono noti oggi come Albanesi."

English:
"History without manipulating proves that actually the territory named in Serbian Kosovo, the name which is already recognized internationally since the early days, long before the arrival of Hellenic tribes, was inhabited by the Illyrians (Illyrian = libero), direct descendants of which are known today as Albanians."
“Rivista di studi politici internazionali, Volume 60”
Giacinto Bosco, Florence. Facoltà di scienze politiche "Cesare Alfieri.", Università di Firenze. Studio fiorentino di politica estera
Sansoni, 1993 >
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...6_524923_n.jpg

And you have should considered that i can overspread you whith thousands of other books, if you try to degrade the importance of any of the aforementioned 




> you have major nationalistic issues which is making you post so many things which contradict each other.


How can be nationalistic about albanians, all these thousands of international studies, from antiquity until today?!
I doubt here who is pseudo nationalist, international fre scientists, or you !





> Let me say ..If you believe the albanians where original people in the albanian area, then ALL I have found is that albanians in the ancient times where either Epirotes or Molossians ( maybe a bit of both) ........the original homeland was in the Pindus mountains.


You still dont understand the difference of a tribe and a nation or the culture at all.
Mollossians were Epirot or Illyrian TRIBE of the same culture whith other Illyrian or Epirot tribes. In fact, you have to understand that Macedonians were thraco-illyrians (pelasgian)... just like all hundreds of other tribes in these areas, before the arrival of hellenic tribes. 
How many times I have to say that you should read about Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians(from the same 'barbarian' culture-pelasgian) here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page9

1



> The name Albanoi was first mentioned by Roman historians in 100AD ( BCE),


2



> so completly non-illyrian as the area mentioned was non-illyrian area...........


Hahaha... I'm wondering where to find any connection between these two sentences ?!
+ http://www.illyrians.org/shouldweignore.html




> secondly , illyrians never reached the Pindus mountains.


Learn more about Illyrian tribes and territory in all periods, not to post me any map after X invasions





> Between the Illyrians and Helles /greeks where the Epirotes, molossians, dorians, macedonians, dardanians ............where does the albanians fit in?


1.Dorians-------the real Greeks (Helenes)- (1100 BC migrate to Greece main land). Their original Home Phthia
Very, very, very small tribe of Pelasgians 1100 BC. Very specific dialect of Pelasgians
(“Now all those who dwelt about Pelasgian Argos, those who lived by Alos and Alope and at Trakhis, thos who held Phthia and Hellas the land of fair women, who were called Myrmidones and Hellenes and Akhaians, of all these and their fifty ships the lord was Akhilleus.” - Homer, The Iliad 2.681
Phthia and Hellas the land of fair women(english)----Phithia and Hellas toke *grash* te drejta (albanian)
 
2.Ionians--------Pelasgians( become "greeks" in classical time 450 BC after Peloponesian War and were "assimilated" by doric dialect of pelasgians 750-450 BC.

3.Aeolians----------same story as Ionians

4.The islanders-----same story as Ionians and aeolians

5.Achaeans of Peloponesus---------same with Ioninians (under Argos kingdom 1200 BC)

6.Achaeans of Thesaly-------same as Dorians 

Pelasgians (the Albanians today)------Pelasgians (people that were never assimilated by the Doric dialect)





> Trojans as far as I know spoke Luwian.


Dardanians were founders of Troy. Dardanians were thraco-illyrian (pelasgian) powerfull tribe. Troy (or Illius), were Illyrian (Pelasgian). - Read the piece of book above about this question too ;)
But Luwian are not aliens :)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3291884_n.jpg
The Trojans and Dardanians were probably of the same stock, a mixture of aboriginal Anatolians and Luwians (such as could be found in nearby Arzawa), with later influxes of Hittites and Mycenaens
Ancient greeks referred to _Luwians_ as _pelasgians_ too even that Luwian is known as indo-europian language

Luwians are related to "LUD" and became "LYDIA" (Ant.1:6:4) in W. ASIA MINOR just as Isaiah 66:19 indicates as a location. His portion was "the land of Arara (Ararat)," and "the mountains of Asur (Assur)" (Jub.9:6). Herodotus 1:7 mentions "LYDUS" as the first king of Lydia (see 7:74). Egyptian monuments portray this nation of "LUDEN" as Semitic and not far from the fertile crescent. King Atys "divided the population into two groups and determined by drawing lots which should emigrate and which should remain at home ... his son Tyrrhenus to command the emigrants... They ... finally reached UMBRIA in the north of Italy, where they settled ... Here they changed their name from Lydians to TYRRHENIANS" (Her.1:94). They were also known as TUSCI or ETRUSCI from ETRURIA (Lempriere, pp.646,231). "The ETRURIANS (were) ... descended from a LYDIAN colony" (Lempriere, p.348; Tacitus Ann.4:55) and founded ETRURIA in N.W. ITALY (ibid., p.231) with Mount ALBAN to their south and the city of "ALBA" in Piedmont to the north and the Isle of ELBA to their west. "Dionysius of Halicarnassus quotes a tradition that the name (ALBANIA) arose from the alleged fact that the people were the descendants of emigrants from ALBA in Italy" (Encyc. Brit. 11th, 1:481). The ETRUSCAN language is closely related to ALBANIAN (Coon, Living Races of Man, p.57). The Caucasus region was also anciently called ALBANIA (Strabo map 12) and had an ELBRUZ Mt. (23:874, II C2) similar to the ELBURZ Mts. of Persia (21:188, B1). Today its called GEORGIA where we find "TSKHINVALI" and "TSKARO." The European ALBANIA has the "Ghegs" and "TOSKS" and the capital is called "TIRANA." Both ALBANIAS apparently have a GIRGASHITE presence. Some "TOSKS" are called "Chams" (Ham's) (Encyc. Brit., 11th, 1:484). The Persians knew the Asiatic province as "Gurjistan" (Encyc. Brit. 11th, 11:758). Even the original LYDIA dwelt next to "the land of Karkisha" in Asia Minor. A river in Macedonia was called "LYDIAS" (Lempriere, p.343) and another river in Germany was called "ALBIS" (Strabo map 6) later called "ELBE." A tribe of Albanians is known as the SHOSHI (1:485a) possibly Elamites from Susa Persia. As in other etymologies, the Hamitic LUD may have gotten his name from the Semitic LUD and therefore N. W. Africa is another colony.
http://www.british-israel.us/1503.html
More info from this level: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=16a1ad75fe
More info about Etruscians (Tyrrheni, Tusci, Toskany...):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...9&l=0deac217ab
+ http://www.etruscan-translation.com/
+ Etruscan - Albanian - English - Vocabulary
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...00001133356751
....
+ https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...0&l=1c4c6738d3
...and from here onward: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8&l=a7334f738f...

+ Here you can read some inscription from these people, what can be read today so easly through Albanian language. Also see how other tribes (Illyrian-Thracian, or Pelasgian tribes) moved arund the Meditterean, specifically from Asia Minor to Balkans, drawn from the invasions of greeks, indo-europians or whoever. + *Lydia, Lybia, Luwia, Likia, Lycaonia _(Lukka or Luqqa... in albanian Luq/lloq/ç... means something wet, backwater...)_ - in Asia Minor... Lyncests in Illyria, or near the lake of Ohrid (was called Lychni) between Albania and Macedonia... the Lake, in albanian is Liqen.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page7

And Dardanians are related whith Dodanim (from Japhet):
- In Albania is the RODONI Cape (27:426, A2) and the town of DODONA in Epirus.
http://www.british-israel.us/1502.html
- The Dodonians were known to be an ancient people (cf. Iliad 2:748; Herodotus 2:52-57). The Targum renders it as Dardania, a city on the Dardanelles, after which the strait was named (cf. Herodotus 1:189, 7:43; Iliad 2:819).
http://bible.ort.org/books/Torahd5.a...splayid&id=237
- Dodanim has Rodanim as an alternative reading, and if so it will indicate the inhabitants of Rhodes.[4]
The peoples of Rhodes were known as Rhodians or Dardani.
- In the Bible Dardanim obviously refers to the residents of Asia Minor in the area of Troy which traces its origin to a certain Dardanus.? Later we find the city of Dardanus there and the surrounding area became known as Dardany.
- Ancient historian, Ammianus Marcellinus refers to the Dardani as occupying Illyricum
- A branch of Dodanim dwell to this day in northern Italy. They are concentrated in the north and northwest. In this regard, Pliny refers to the tribe of Dardi living in Apulia in Italy.[26] In the north-east they dwell near the Bavarians and Illyrians (related to the Albanians). They are of the Alpine sub-racial stock, comprising 25% of the population of Italy
- According to tradition, during Niall’s reign, he traveled across the water to Alba where he engaged the Picts in battle, taking certain of the Pict royal family hostage - one from each of the kingdoms he conqureed - hence the nickname "Niall of the Nine Hostages"
...his brothers went to Alba Scotland
Kenneth Mac Alpin was born at Iona, and died in 860. He was a King of Albany, and united the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots.
CONSTANTINE I * was a King of Albany.
DOMNALL II * was a King of Albany.
CONSTANTINE II * was a King of Alba.
MALCOLM I * was a King of Albany.
DUBH * was a King of Albany
KENNETH II * was a King of Albany.
KENNETH III * was a King of Albany, Chief of Clan Duff.
MALCOLM II * was a King of Albany. He was King of Scotland from 1003 to 1033.
DUNCAN I * was a King of Albany. Duncan married Sybil
LULACH (THE SIMPLE) * was a rival King of Albany, Chief of Clan Duff.
MALCOLM III (CAENN-MOR) * was a King of Albany.
ALEXANDER I * was a King of Albany.
DAVID I * was a King of Scots. He united Lothian, Albany and Cumbria in 1124.
__________________________________________________ ______
CAMBO BLASCON18 * (BLASCON17, ALTHEO16, THUSCO15, HERCULES14, DODANIM13, JAVAN12, JAPHETH11, NOAH10, LAMECH9, METHUSELAH8, ENOCH7, JARED6, MAHABEEL5, KENAN4, ENOSH3, SHETH2, ADAM1)
Child of CAMBO BLASCON * is:
1. DARDANO19 *.
http://www.cgca.net/coglinks/origin/...d_Japanese.htm
- ISACON17 * (ELINUS16, DOHE15, BODB14, IBATH13, GOMER12, JAPHETH11, NOAH10, LAMECH9, METHUSELAH8, ENOCH7, JARED6, MAHABEEL5, KENAN4, ENOSH3, SHETH2, ADAM1)
Children of ISACON * are:
A. ROMANUS18 *.
B. FRANCUS *.
C. BRITUS *.
D. ALBANUS *. According to the Leabhar Gabhala Earrainn, Albanus was the individual "who first took Albania, with his children, and of him is Alba named; so he drove his brother across the Sea of Icht, and from him are the Albanians of Latium of Italy."
http://www.motherbedford.com/AdamGen01.htm
The Septuagint translation states Ionan for Yavan, as well as Rodanim for Dodanim - For more details and explanation read Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6
______________
Albania - Britania:
- The name Briton originated from Brutus (a descendant of Elishah), the first king on Britain's mainland, arriving about 1100 B.C. Two sons of Brutus, Kamber and Albanactus, are referenced in English prehistory. From Kamber came Cambaria and the Cambrians (who integrated with the Gomerites [mostly Celts] and became the present-day Welsh). The descendants of Albanactus were known as the Albans (or the Albanach whom the Irish commonly called them). Geographers would later call the land Albion. The Britons (also Brythons), Cambrians and Albans populated the British Isles, which later endured multiple invasions, beginning with successive waves of Celts about 700 B.C. The Celts (or Gaels) called the land Prydain, their name for Briton. Those Celts (descendants of Gomer) integrated with the descendants of Elishah and Tarshish (sons of Javan), creating what some scholars called "a Celticized aboriginal population" in the British Isles. Some of the invading people groups were Scythians, descended from Magog, who became known as the Skoths or Scots. The name for the Celts or Cymru was "Weahlas," from Anglo-Saxon origins, meaning "land of foreigners"—Wales. The Welsh still call themselves Cymru, pronounced "Coomry." Later the Romans referred to the land as Britannia, invading there about 50 years before the birth of Christ. By the third century A.D., Jutes, Franks, Picts, Moors, Angles, Saxons and other groups were invading from surrounding Europe. In the sixth century A.D., Saxons called the land Kemr (Cymru), and the language Brithenig (Breton). The Angles eventually conquered Britannia, renaming the territory Angleland, which became England. Vikings invaded in the 9th century, and the Normans (or Northmen—former Danish Vikings) conquered England in 1066. Today, the British isles are settled by the ancestors of those people groups, which included Gomer and Javan (first inhabitants), plus Magog (later invasions by various people groups). http://www.michel-desfayes.org/namesofcountries.html
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
+ https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3356751&type=1
+ https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3356751&type=1
... the ancient city of Unuk (in the Bible is the first city ever built, equated with Enoch), later appears as Uruk and Erech, then as Wark or Warka by the Sumerians.
* From Babel the three families of man would populate the earth, and here we have the beginnings of all people groups through Shem, Ham and Japheth
http://www.soundchristian.com/man/
See Peleg, the king of Babel... in his time the nations started to divide...




> Is Pelagasian a people or a linguistic dialect/language spoken by many different races? 
> so, if you can make it clear who you beleive the albanians are we can check


Pelasgian were the original most ancient dwellers of all around the Medditerean... and they started to distributed in other cultures (nations) and to interanct whith them, and melt away whith them... in one word, they started to be more heterogeneous... in this way, from pelasgian language, culture, were formed other later cultures, languages and nations and that part of pelasgians who decided to retreat in the mountains around (see careful in Balkan mountains, until in these late years, the only original inhabitants were albanians), called them self Alba (Arba), and they had the opportunity to preserve their original identity until today (no matter the effects from neighbors in language, but nevertheless, the original words of common language, remain alive until today, among others, and the method of comparing the language and etymology, proves this).

*Herodotus Book 8 Urania*_...the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language_

*The New York Times (1998)
...Strabo (7.7.1) and Pausanias (1.41.8) both offer the opinion that Hellas was once entirely or almost entirely inhabited by barbarians...* 
*The Greeks and Greek Civilization
*https://myaccount.nytimes.com/auth/l...=Q5fQ72Q3dQ32+ http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-...ery=Str.+7.7.2

@ all: And now, stop deviating every topic whith your lack of information, because I don't want to believe that the barrier here to speak scientifically whithout emotions, hate... is pseudo-nationalism!
______________________________
So, let's proceed whith the topic again: ...what about ancient Macedonia ? 
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196367803744330.45871.100001133356751&type= 1&l=1f8bcdeead

----------


## Taranis

I have move this - again - into a separate thread.

----------


## razor

> I have move this - again - into a separate thread.


Yeah, it's either that or pistols at dawn...

----------


## zanipolo

> Yes, and so what is wrong whith that ?!


nothing wrong just make up your mind are you epirote now? or are you saying epirotes are illyrians?




> Please stop deviating the words !
> The link there is saying:
> Italian:
> "La storia non manipolata prova infatti che il territorio chiamato in serbo Kosovo, e con tale nome ormai accettato internazionalmente, fin dalle epoche più remote, molto prima anche della discesa delle tribù elleniche, era abitato dagli Illiri (ilir = libero), i cui eredi diretti sono noti oggi come Albanesi."
> 
> English:
> "History without manipulating proves that actually the territory named in Serbian Kosovo, the name which is already recognized internationally since the early days, long before the arrival of Hellenic tribes, was inhabited by the Illyrians (Illyrian = libero), direct descendants of which are known today as Albanians."
> “Rivista di studi politici internazionali, Volume 60”
> Giacinto Bosco, Florence. Facoltà di scienze politiche "Cesare Alfieri.", Università di Firenze. Studio fiorentino di politica estera
> ...


stop using stupid online translators, the sentence means what i said
oggi = today
come = like/similar
 



> How can be nationalistic about albanians, all these thousands of international studies, from antiquity until today?!
> I doubt here who is pseudo nationalist, international fre scientists, or you !


i dislike nationality, its all lies and propaganda. 




> You still dont understand the difference of a tribe and a nation or the culture at all.
> Mollossians were Epirot or Illyrian TRIBE of the same culture whith other Illyrian or Epirot tribes. In fact, you have to understand that Macedonians were thraco-illyrians (pelasgian)... just like all hundreds of other tribes in these areas, before the arrival of hellenic tribes. 
> How many times I have to say that you should read about Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians(from the same 'barbarian' culture-pelasgian) here:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page9


i know the difference between a tribe and a nation. a tribe began with the creation of man and is still in use today.
A nation began in the 18th century and evolved from feudal states and other different dictatoral systems.
BTW, modern nations are more feudal than nationalistic these days anyway

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0tribe&f=false

no illyrians near pindus mountains and no albanoi tribe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...d_environs.png

no albanoi tribe prior to roman conquest
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Illyrians.jpg

no albanoi in this 6 AD map, because they where only mentioned from 150AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Il...onofTribes.png

Lastly , I read that albanians derived from norman settlements in Durres aroubd 1000AD, ......so there are many stories.

Another problem for you is that albanians are in majority HG E and very little of this is found north of montenegro in central and northern illyrian lands. The only other major E in the area are greeks

----------


## Besir Bajrami

> nothing wrong just make up your mind are you epirote now? or are you saying epirotes are illyrians?


Your ignorance is infinite! How many times I have to say that you should read about Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians(from the same 'barbarian' culture-pelasgian) here, not to ask me what albanians WANT to be! 
You dont read and this is your problem !
Let's try other info one by one:

+
Epeirotes and Macedonian languages ​​belong to the Illyrian family, Pelasgian, today Albanian, the language of Skipetarian (or Arvanite/Arnaut/Arbresh/Arber/n)
*The Genesis of the earth and of man *: or, The history of creation, and the antiquity and races of mankind considered on Biblical and other grounds* *Edward William Lane*
*Reginald Stuart Poole*
*Edition 2*
*Williams and Norgate*
...

or:
These people are generally and in all probability accurately identified as the result of the combination of the ancient Illyrians, Macedonians, and Epirotes, who were all the descendants of the more ancient Pelasgians.
*The American review of reviews, Volume 47 - Albert Shaw - Review of Reviews, 1913* 

*+* 
We are able to trace with tolerable certainty the long series of historical transformations by which the ancient Epirotes, Illyrians, and Macedonians, were reborn during the Middle Ages into the modern Albanian race.
[...]
Now it was, however, that the Illyrians and men of Epirus constituted a breakwater against the floods. For a long time they maintained a defensive attitude against the Teutonic and Slavonic races on the north and west. At length the Mohammedans came in from the East, and the people whom we may now call Albanians had to face about and defend themselves against Islam. The Turks made little headway against this resolute enemy. A popular leader appeared in the celebrated George Castriota, whom the Turks called Scanderbeg. Time and again Mohammed II, after his conquest of Constantinople, set his armies against the Albanians, only to suffer defeat at their hands.
[...]
This is to say that the modern Greeks and the Albanians are at the end of the twigs of the first branch of the Aryan tree which we have been considering.
[...]
Thus we have presented for our consideration the modern Greek and Albanian races as the repre sentatives of the first division of the old Aryan family of mankind.
*Ridpath's history of the world - Ridpath, John Clark, Volume: 2 - New York, Merrill & Baker

*Albanian language is the most ancient tongue in Europe and is the mother of latin and greek...
Thus pressed back, the Illyrian, Epirote and Macedonian clans consolidated themselfs in what modern geography knows as Albania...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6004692_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...8_934157_n.jpg
*National Geographic: vol 59*
*
+
Epirus, during the true historic period, was not Greek, but Illyrian; Pelasgian period, pre-Hellenic, the golden age...*
*A manual of ancient history, from the earliest times to the fall of the Sassanian Empire, comprising the history of Chaldaea, Assyria, Media, Babylonia, Lydia, Phoenicia, Syria, Fudaea, Egypt, Carthage, Persia, Greece, Macedonia, Rome and Parthia 
* *Rawlinson, George*
*Oxford Clarendon Press*


**






> i dislike nationality, its all lies and propaganda.


All lies and propaganda comes from these false religious states like new greek and south slavic states (especially Serbia)

But I'm following these
http://www.greektexts.com/ 
...and free international European and American institutes and institutions after the period of ilumination, when they started to studie the ancient Europe, whithout pseudo-nationlism 




> i know the difference between a tribe and a nation. a tribe began with the creation of man and is still in use today.
> A nation began in the 18th century and evolved from feudal states and other different dictatoral systems.
> BTW, modern nations are more feudal than nationalistic these days anyway
> 
> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...0tribe&f=false
> 
> no illyrians near pindus mountains and no albanoi tribe
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...d_environs.png
> 
> ...


I told you to stop postin here maps after the X invasion was started.
Learn how ancient greek writters wrote about the borders of Illyria!
+
You forgot the toponym _Arbon_ (Greek: Ἄρβων or Ἀρβών) [3] or _Arbo_[4] (_Greek: Άρβωνα_)[5] is mentioned by Polybius in the _History of the World_ (II century BC). It was perhaps an island[6] in Liburnia or another location within Illyria. Stephanus of Byzantium centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name for its inhabitants.

That's why E. Bidera wrote: when some albanians, or Arbresh escape into Italy after the death of Skanderbeg:
Arbëreshët, Albanians or the first Pelasgians came as before 4000 years, the Greeks did not understand Pelasgian language Albanian myths...
*Quaranta secoli racconti su le Due Sicilie del Pelasgo Matn-Eer, Volume 4* *Emmanuele Bidera* 
*A. Manuzio [poi] Tip. de' Gemelli*
**
**
**

+ Albanoi." _Encyclopædia Britannica (not Wikipedia): 
_http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12564/Albanoi
+ Albania: From Illyria to Albania 
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...chor=ref476168
+ *The Encyclopaedia Britannica*
http://oi53.tinypic.com/jhcvf5.jpg
+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4276547_n.jpg
...

And what about Albania toponym all around the Europe and Asia ?



+ Maliq culture in Albania, more specifically Maliq III was around 2100 BC http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2...ulture&f=false ...
This is the period when the Bronze age starts and elite single graves, horses and the whole Indo-European package was introduced. This is late for south-east Europe. The Bronze Age reached Scotland almost exactly at the same period. Both could be offshoots from the Unetice culture from Central Europe. Perhaps this common source of IE people called themselves "Alba(n)" ?
Also, folk elements, for example the bagpipe could therefore be a genuine Indo-European musical instrument, as it is found in regions thousands of kilometres apart from each that only have R1b1b in common (e.g. Albania, Scotland/Ireland, France, Iberia, northern Italy, Germany, Crete, north-east Turkey and Armenia). The most famous bagpipes are also the askomandoura from Crete. Interestingly Crete also happens to be a hotspot for R1b (at least the Lasithi plateau, which has over 40% of R1b). R1a regions also have bagpipes (Poland, Ukraine, Iran, India) but it is far rarer than in R1b regions.
Alba - the Eagle
http://www.youtube.com/user/2B1985#p/f/483/Yhg9X0LhEI4
Alba - the Day Lighting
http://www.youtube.com/user/antonKAS...56/MmFlmceV75c
Eagle of the Sky, Alba - Albania
http://www.youtube.com/user/2B1985#p/f/484/SVSRmNIK5V8

+ The problem of lack of written documents of albanian-illyrian ties (illyrians in Balkans), are not today albanians, but "guilty" are Illyrians (in the region of Balkans only), because they did not leave written documents (in region of Balkans only)... But when Messapian insciptions wer proclaimed as the Illyrian language, scientists were able to decipher it only by the Albanian language! - Also, there are a lot of Pelasgian, Etruscan, Tyrrhenian, Lycian, Thracian, Hittite... words in albanian language.
In the other hand there are not other nations who are more closest whith Illyrians, as Albanians are. Other sciences have confirmed this. 

Albanians in middle ages call them self Arban/Arbën/Arbër/Arbëresh... greeks called them Arvanit (because b-v), also turks called them Arnaut... and after all these thraco-illyrian (from illyria, macedonia & epir region) tribes, retreat in the mountains around (see careful in Balkan mountains, until in these late years, the only original inhabitants were albanians), they had the opportunity to preserve their original identity until today (no matter the effects from neighbors in language, but nevertheless, the original words of common language, remain alive until today, among others, and the method of comparing the language and etymology, proves this).
And, as in the book that you've posted here to me (that has so much propaganda, it was enough to read that: "77 % of albanians in Macedonia do not to be united whith an Albanian state"!", anyway), albanians called them self Shqiptar - Sons of the eagle.
This name can represent all these original/autochthonal ancient tribes of this region retread and united from permanent invasions to save their original identity. Albania is in use only by foreigners to identify this state, which is created around this Illyrian tribe Albanoi (or Parthini - Parth/Barth in albanian means White; Also Alb in lattin means White), Albanoi can consider as a latin name about Parthini, but Alb is PIE root, not IE... we shoul consider here that this name was in use before italic tribes as Alba Longa founded by pelasgians or etruscans (specifically, by Aeneas Dardani), that passed there from southern part of Albania and from all Illyria at all. See this map:
 
is taken from this book "The Etruscans begin to speak", by Z. Mayani:


And about Skipetar/Shqiptar/Shqyptar/Shqipëtar... you can see hear a describtion of that name in the books: The Academy and literatur: vol.18)


Also:

And so on...




> Another problem for you is that albanians are in majority HG E and very little of this is found north of montenegro in central and northern illyrian lands. The only other major E in the area are greeks


Info:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
+ learn about the concept of ASSIMILATION!

P.S: Don't undertake to debate about any thread, when you are not able or well read about that question!
+ I see in you a lack of love for reading, when someone oposses you whith books from every period of history, from antiquity, until today.

----------


## Taranis

I will not go into detail in my reply, but I'd like to issue a few general objections:

- citing sources which try to link biblical genalogy into historical linguistics/ethnogenesis is neither a good idea nor is it scientific.

- You're citing Z. Mayani, who's claim that Albanian is related with Etruscan is has been completely and thoroughly debunked, in particular due to the fact that the Etruscan language was evidently a non-Indo-European language, whereas Albanian is obviously and firmly an Indo-European language. I outlined parts of this here and here. As you can see, the original poster of the threads too believes Mayani's hypothesis, and you will find extensive counter-argumentation on my side how and why Etruscan is not Indo-European.

----------


## julia90

I find the theory that albanians are descendands of people of the etruscan/pelasgian stock, fashinating.

thought modern albanian is indoeuropean, while etruscan is not.

i find also that albanians have some similar looks with italians

----------


## julia90

as you said in italian toponimy there are many names Albano, Albani, thought they may be connected with latin Albus, i wich means white, or with modern italia Alba that means Sunrise

ancient roman city http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populi_albenses

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Fucens

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colli_Albani
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Albano
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albano_Laziale
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_(Italia)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_(Canazei)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Adriatica
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanella_(Italia)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albano_Sant%27Alessandro
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albano_di_Lucania
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albano_Vercellese
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albano_(torrente)

----------


## julia90

a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins

----------


## Taranis

Mind you, the root is not only found in Latin "albus". The root word is probably Proto-Indo-European and also found in other branches, including Celtic (compare 'Alba', 'Albion', 'Albiones') and Germanic (compare English 'Elf', German 'Elb').

Another issue is, the term "Albanians" is an exonym, not the self-designation of the Albanians (which is Shqiptar), and that is a huge difference. It's the same as with "Germans" and "Deutsche" or "Welsh" and "Cymry".

----------


## julia90

> Mind you, the root is not only found in Latin "albus". The root word is probably Proto-Indo-European and also found in other branches, including Celtic (compare 'Alba', 'Albion', 'Albiones') and Germanic (compare English 'Elf', German 'Elb').
> 
> Another issue is, the term "Albanians" is an exonym, not the self-designation of the Albanians (which is Shqiptar), and that is a huge difference. It's the same as with "Germans" and "Deutsche" or "Welsh" and "Cymry".


i think you are right.

Albus, is very indoeuropean, in the case of german and celtic, what does it mean?

in latin, white
also the Alps, derive from it, meaning white (mountains)

----------


## Yetos

> Mind you, the root is not only found in Latin "albus". The root word is probably Proto-Indo-European and also found in other branches, including Celtic (compare 'Alba', 'Albion', 'Albiones') and Germanic (compare English 'Elf', German 'Elb').
> 
> Another issue is, the term "Albanians" is an exonym, not the self-designation of the Albanians (which is Shqiptar), and that is a huge difference. It's the same as with "Germans" and "Deutsche" or "Welsh" and "Cymry".


I think the word elf is after another meaning

elf in northern many things by with south is connected with deer (ελαφ-ος) 
elf might be connected with hunting tribes or cultures who wear deer horns etc mainly deep forest culture
godess artemis living and worship style, 
ιερα ελαφος

while the word alba exist in Greek as alabastros albiona 
probably connection of word white or change of al with la 
remember the stone for stone is la 
so maybe in latium is mountain Albani but if it original was mount Labani means rocky mountains as in Pelasgian minoan etc
compare the word La-riss = Stone fortification or rocky nose (acropolis) 
Lapis in italian 
Lapis lazuli 
Labrys (the stone hammer) 

personnaly both are accepted 

since albion is also the white seagull 
(compare albatros) etc 
Besides albion (england) in Greek means land of seagulls 

alba must be also connected with alabaster

----------


## Taranis

> i think you are right.
> 
> Albus, is very indoeuropean, in the case of german and celtic, what does it mean?
> 
> in latin, white
> also the Alps, derive from it, meaning white (mountains)


In the case of Celtic:
- "Albion" is an ancient name for "Britain" that was recorded by the Greeks
- "Alba" was the name of a kingdom in Scotland in the medieval ages, and is also today the Scottish Gaelic name for "Scotland"
- the "Albiones" were a tribe in modern-day Galicia.

In the case of Germanic:
- An "Elf" (plural "Elves") are mythological beings or magical creatures from Germanic mythology and folklore. To pick an example from popular culture, they are popularized in the _Lord of the Rings_.  :Laughing: 
- The German word for nightmare, "Albtraum" also aludes to the elves and literally means 'elven dream'.
- The river name "Elbe" probably means "white river".

----------


## Elias2

> This part of your post, is *provocative, outside the topic* (and makes me to react... in this way the topic deviates),and it's continuation of the* propaganda* that some of the southern slavs and new greeks, not not convenient the albanian autochthony, for millions of devouring reasons. The administrators should take action when we found these kind of deviations, thus promote long explanations (from another member), to make the "question" clear, and what is not related directly whith the topic


I'll say it again, because you are mad about the truth, Albanians do not decend from Illyrians. Albanains began to appear in the middle ages, alot of migrations happened in the middle ages. Albanians coverted to islam under the ottomans, this is why they were able to grow in the 500 years, the product is modern day albania. 

Look, read, take it in, and understand I know you are mad because Albanian history is constructed around this notion of Illyrianism, but it is false, and albanian intelectuals should speak out against this delusion.

----------


## Besir Bajrami

I will reply you again word by word (as always, and I wonder when you'll do the same whith my posts) for the last time that you're spaming. If you proceed to respam only this dirty serbian propaganda, whithout arguments, I don't now what else I can "talk" whith someone like you, because you don't have the culture to read what your "interlocutor" writes! 




> I'll say it again, because you are mad about the truth


Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument. 




> Albanians do not decend from Illyrians.


If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)




> Albanains began to appear in the middle ages, alot of migrations happened in the middle ages.




If you have contra arguments... 
*- Tell me when albanians come into Balkans (*don't tell me about any internal movement, field-mountain, mountain-field... addiction to invasions of others, remember here*:* _Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)
Dorothy Margaret Vaughan 
AMS Press, 1976
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg_*
*_Or this one:_ _Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg_*
Or this:
*If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
In the whole of Macedonia the Albanian language is spoken and the villages of Janina and Scutari are alone peopled by Albanians.
p.587
Public opinion, Volume 34
The Public Opinion Co., 
Princeton University*
Or:
*Alber Pike:
...in fact, but autochtons.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg*), from where ? (and why there are no any serious institution in the World, that confirm that migration)... ?
- Tell me how albanians called them self in middle ages, and what is the history of that name in this region ?
- Tell me why they now are still called Albanian, and what is the history of this name in this region ?
- Tell me why albanians, when after all thraco-illyrian (from Illyria, Macedonia & Epir region) tribes, retread in the mounains around the Illyrian tribe Albanoi, decided to call themself shqiptar (what is the meaning of this name) ? 
- Tell me why albanians lived in the mountains and latter the slavs in the fields ?
- Tell me who are the native, those who live in the mountains, or those who live in the fields ?
- Tell me why they have pelasgian, illyrian, thracian, etruscan, hittite... words in their lexicon? 
- Tell me why they have greek and latin atrocities in their langauge ?
- Tell me how can they borrow so much Latin and a few Greek words, if they whould not live near them (greeks) or under them (latins), when they (latins) invaded Illyrian peninsula ?
- Tell me why some albanian roots and other small semantic units are in the greek and latin language ?
- Tell me from where are derived these albanian pure words (which are not greek, not latin, not slavic... but a particular language in their own) ?
- Tell me why all international serious scientists (linguists), whith the method of comparison of the language, and etymology ... have reached the conclusion that Albanian is one of the oldest languages ​​of the continent (are they all nationalist) ?
- Tell me why albanians language has so much sub-dialects (Dr. Robert Elsie was registred 137 of them, but there are much more); Does that mean that these people have lived in a wider region (about ancient greeks, or the elite of the region, they were barbarians= Pelasgians, or Thraco-Illyrian tribes... Epirotes, Macedonians...), but of the same culture (the same language) ?*
Answer me about all these question, if you don't want to spam again...
...
Also, against your serbian propaganda, I've posted you so much material here: 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5 
... to make up your mind, but as always, you don't read or care at all !

Also about "migration" i've posted you so much materials there, and above also... but as always, you don't evend read!
Let's try one by one again.... from a book, not from my mind:
_(Let's give sentence by sentence, as a child, because you don't read:)_
Step 1:
...We are able to trace with tolerable certainty the long series of historical transformations by which the ancient Epirotes, Illyrians, and Macedonians, were reborn during the Middle Ages *into the modern Albanian race...*
*Ridpath's history of the world - Ridpath, John Clark, Volume: 2 - New York, Merrill & Baker*
Step 2 in the second comment, this time i will not post you another book ;)




> Albanians coverted to islam under the ottomans


Some albanian were able better to survive when they change their religion in Islam, because then the differences beetwen south slavic invaders and new greeks, became double (national & religious). Other orthodox albanians become the greaters greeks and slavs... you can see it today from their DNA ;)
Also I posted you the first constitution of the new Greek state in 1821
This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1227707_n.jpg

Here is translated in english:
http://i55.tinypic.com/29qjyuu.jpg

...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.




> this is why they were able to grow in the 500 years, the product is modern day albania.


You have a great fantasy, but why you post in a thread about the albanians, when you don't now nothing at all about these people.
Albanians have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!). 




> Look, read, take it in, and understand I know you are mad because Albanian history is constructed around this notion of Illyrianism, but it is false


While I'm reading people like you, is being made ​​completely clear :)
Illyrian origin about albanians is composed from international scientists, not by Albanians. No serious study is not done by the Albanians, because they did not have a free state, institutions ... only in the case of the Albanians we can say that nationalism has no place!




> and albanian intelectuals should speak out against this delusion.http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26965-Albanians-(OFFTOPIC-Macedonians)


Albanian intelectuals have another job to do... how to make money, because we still are poorest people of Europe ;)
If there would not have been (And I bow in gratitude before them) German, French, English, Italian, American and any Slavic or Greek free scientists, albanians will proceed to be the most unknown nation to them. The period of iluminasion in Europe, was when europian scientists started to be interested about the language and history of albanians and ancient Europe at all, whithout pseudo-nationalism. Because science has suffered a lot from people like you!
Like Johan Erik Tunman said in his ”Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte oestlichen europaeischen Voelker” (Leipzig 1774)_No other race in the living World is such unknown for the western Europians like the Albanians are. Nevertheless, they used to be the main race in the antiquity playing a dominant role in it, so any scholar who study history would be interested for. Their history would have filled the great gaps in the history of Europe old or new whatsoever. However… now, they dont play any special role anymore. Now they are subservient, they are unfortunate, and the western historians in these circumstances behave in an unfair way, the same with regular people, they dont have respect for the unfortunate ones.





_

----------


## Besir Bajrami

> I will not go into detail in my reply, but I'd like to issue a few general objections:
> 
> - citing sources which try to link biblical genalogy into historical linguistics/ethnogenesis is neither a good idea nor is it scientific.


Tell me about which conclusion of the above materials, you don't agree, or is problematic for you, and I will post you the same conclusion from another book, but not from "biblical genalogy" this time and to solve this "problem" :)

_- About Etruscans, I will answer you again, after we make clear the first objection_

----------


## Besir Bajrami

> a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins



*Albanian white qeleshe or plis* (just like todays arvanites are named as greeks, in the same way, the old pelasgian culture in ancient times, they call it greek)*.*





*1=Odysseus (in albanian Odhisti/Udhisti... traveler)
2=Uliks
3=Odysseus
4=Hefest
5=Theti (deity of the sea and water, today in albanian Deti=the sea), runs to pull weapons of Achilles, to "divine" Hefest. All the three have the todays albanian plis/qeleshe in their head (Rome show about Iliad at Colosse-2007, the Archaeological Museum of Naples)
6=Hefest
7=Illyrian type of a plaque found in today's Croatia near Dubrovnik 
8=Poseidon
9=Through the Etruscans (Pelasgians), the subsequent Roman people named "pileus libertatis" (plis of freedom), here presented in the currency printed by the Roman Brutus after Caesar's murder.
10=Antique statues in Labëri (also similar to this*:http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3040852_n.jpg)
*11=Ajax & Achilles playing Draughts*

* Starting from the Plis/qeleshe of ZEUS (Zojsi/Dias) up to Bardulus [(white - star Dardanian/Bardhanian Bardh(white) yll(star)], all these are symbols of freedom to Albanians, you can see this link for more: http://picasaweb.google.com/11509262...96537464102946
Here we have Zeus: 
"A19 SG#0671 Bruttium, Lokroi Epizephyrioi, possibly from the time of Pyrrhus. AE 20. 300-268 BC. First part of 3rd Cent BC. Conjoined busts of the Dioskouroi right wearing PILEI - Zeus enthroned holding patera nd Sceptre, cornucopiae behind, LOKRWN. SNG Cop 1895. HN Italy 2399. Sear 671. 4.9g."
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._5347599_n.jpg

Here we have Pyrro whith his people with plis/qeleshe and crown from the sacred oak of Dodona




To keep cultural traditions and in proving that to whose people (culture) he belong, he is identified with the eagle and all the other symbolism (like the two horns that appear in this picture) that derive from Thot (Idris)>Deukalion (Dhulkarnejn)> Troyans> Alexander the great> and through him, to Castrioti, who besides that inherited the same culture, but he kept the figure of Pyrrhus in his sword too:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3...enderbeyg0.jpg


 Originally Posted by *Besir Bajrami*  
*Let's proceed:*
*Ancient artifact from Vinca culture (or Goddess on the throne) and modern (still ancient:) albanian dress from Kosovo (part of ancient Dardania)*







*If we pay attention to the tradition, even today in albanian culture, when the girl become e women, when she get married (albanians get married only in Thursday and Sunday), she have to stay just like this, in that position (folded), like the mysterious artifact there.
Thursday is womens day. For the bride they say: "U bë Nuse Venuse" - "You become e Bride a Venus"... alb.:"Ve"- eng.:"Egg" - alb.:"Nuse" - eng.:"bride"... Venus)
Also, when in "the first night" she have to stay whith her man, tradition requires that she have to sit in the symbol of the half of Cosmic Egg (albanian white hood - "Plis" or "Qeleshe", is only a man cap), turned back, and to put in the head the another half, just like the symbol of Zeus here:*
**


So, like the seed that came from the Cosmic Egg or the Egg of the Worlds and brought the life, and the Bride "emerges" from the Egg and bring life in that house.

*In fact the entire albanian national dress represents that pelasgic religion, or symbolizes God/Almighty Creator.
Even the sleeves of the dress (Guna) that don't have to be wear but to connect behind, symbolizing comb / wings of divinity. For old religion (or better to say, from that original religion, what was copied latter from other cultures, especially from the Semitic peoples) says that when the Creator created life from the cosmic egg/egg of worlds, he was presented with comb/wings ...
This kind of theory of creation is writen somehow and in the Bible indireclty in Genesis.
Here you can see the symbolism of Comb/divine wings in albanian dress:*
**


*See more in page 5 in this topic about some other albanian national costumes and their symbolism:*
*http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5
*



So, here we have this wonderful figure from the book of Artur Cook about Zues, who have two qeleshe/plis in above and below... Plis/qeleshe symbolizes the on half of the *cosmic egg*, from which "egg" God created all things, created life.

Otherwise, the Illyrians have used several types of hats/plis/qeleshe (fez-hat-cap-lumpy) similar to each other.
Dardanians have used round (or half circle) qeleshe, in use today by albanians in Kosovo. Dardania latter was from Nis (Naisus) to the Bylazora (Veles), Astipi (Shtibi), Skopje (Skupi), Tetovo (Oaeneum), Gostivar (Draudakum) ...
From mountain in southern Bukovik up to the Ohrid, Gostivar, Struga, Debar and to Mavrovo, have lived Penestians whith the capital Uscana (Kicevo), and this Illyrian tribe had flat plis/qeleshe, at the time of Skanderbeg is called Dibran, because was in use of all regions of Dibra. North Albania holds also flat plis/qeleshe but is much shorter from dibra region. Southern Albania holds the round plis/qeleshe but much longer than it from Dardanians (see 10) - Laberian plis/qeleshe.
Headgear that the Albanians be using the time of the ancient Illyrian-Pelasgians. White fez, kilt, tirqit, mintani with black braids, or Albanian xhubleta (4.000 years old at least), still alive ... Well, these are the Albanian original heritage , because no nation in the world has not previously used except Albanians and yet we have remained without any break tradition.


- Zeus-Poseidon; Zues-Hades; Zeus
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...4_329405_n.jpg

- Dielli (Sun) and Merkuri (Hermes/Thot/Idris)
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._6580153_n.jpg 

-This one os from Illyrian tribe PHRYGASE or Bryghians, aliie whith Troyans (not to say the Troyans itself) 
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attach...1&d=1213317762

- Apollo 
http://www.grisel.net/images/greece/Olympia79.JPG

-Here we have the famous apple, which fez Atlas whith qeleshe/plis in the head gives it to Hercules who hold the weight of the world with the help of Athens
http://www.grisel.net/images/greece/OlympiaHercules.JPG

- PATROCLES and ACHILES
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/...patroclose.jpg

- Odysseus
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8...aramontoq7.jpg

- Collection Albani
http://i48.tinypic.com/5lth05.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2n8n9fn.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/spaeiq.jpg

Trojans


Trojans:
http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/13/54/17/87/568-od10.jpg


This vase (where is Illyrian Kadmi whith qeleshe/plis) preserved in the Louvre Museum - Paris
Plis in lab variant, called a qeleshe, and usually has an little "antenna" on top, as Illyrian Kadmi in this very important artifact.

Kàstor (greek Κάστωρ, -ορος, lat. Castōr, -ŏris) e Pollùksi or Polideuks (greek Πολυδεύκης, -ου, lat. Pollūx, -ūcis) these two names are from Greek and Roman mythology, twin sons of Zeus and Ledia, known above all as "sons of Zeus", as well as the Kàstor




+ http://www.fotografo.to/to1/images/f...o-IMG_0270.JPG

+ Ancient Macedonians http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3040852_n.jpg



Zeus, Athena and Hephastius


...somewhere in the recesses of the Vatican!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6849517_n.jpg

S33.2 DIOSKOUROI

Museum Collection: Museo Archeologico Nazionale di Napoli, Naples, Italy
Catalogue Number: TBA
Title: "Dioscuri"
Class: Free-standing statue
Material: Marble
Height: --
Context: --
Original / Copy: --
Style: --
Date: --
Period: Imperial Roman
SUMMARY
One of a pair of statues, depicting the Dioskouroi twins, with travellers caps, chamlys capes and horse-heads by their feet
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3054070_n.jpg

Achille chez le roi Lycomede, Louvre museum
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6277591_n.jpg


Let's see somthing from books, because like I always do:
Encyclop℗edie M℗ethodique, Ou Par Ordre De Matieres: Par Une Soci ..., Volume 3
By F℗elix Vicq-d'Azur, Jean Le Rond d' Alembert, 1786
Quote: Ce bonnet étoit fait ep cône, 8c ressembloit à un casque. A la plaçe de l'aigrette de celui-ci, on attachoit à ï'apex une baguette recouverte de laine blanche , appelée proprement apex. De là vint le nom des Flamines, selon Servius, a Filaminibus. II est inutile de faire sentir le ridicule de cette étymologie. La forme de ce bonnet, qui ressembloit un peu à la cause ou casque Macédonien, le fit appeler bonnet *d'Epire ou d'Albanie, pileus Epiroticus.* Les Grecs le nommoient v'Ui,ut<


Il perfetto dittionario overo tesoro della lingua volgar Latina 
*1666*
Pietro Galesini

http://i53.tinypic.com/2hwisye.png

http://i52.tinypic.com/15g35w9.png







+ http://i43.tinypic.com/1pvsy1.png
+ http://i40.tinypic.com/nlafzr.png


...


*Video:*
Albanian Hat - Odysseus, Patroculus, Ptolemey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1tvmnc3cVU

... and President Clinton also gave a symbolic message to the world about the albanian Plis/Qeleshe


Read more about albanian qeleshe/plis:
THE “IGNORANCE” OF THE ‘QELESHE’ http://zeus10.wordpress.com/ 
And this one, just in case... http://zeus10.webs.com/

----------


## Taranis

> Tell me about which conclusion of the above materials, you don't agree, or is problematic for you, and I will post you the same conclusion from another book, but not from "biblical genalogy" this time and to solve this "problem" :)
> 
> _- About Etruscans, I will answer you again, after we make clear the first objection_


Frankly, I don't know where to start. The (Neolithic) Vinca Culture was around 7000 years ago. It doesn't make any sense to claim a connection or continuity between them and the Albanians (or any other modern-day ethnicity). The same applies for the Pelasgians. We don't even know if the ancient words / name elements usually identified as "Pelasgian" really have any connection with the Pelasgians. Either way, any connection between these and the modern Albanian language makes no sense what so ever since the ancestor language of Albanian at the same time stage would have looked radically different.

----------


## Sile

> I will reply you again word by word (as always, and I wonder when you'll do the same whith my posts) for the last time that you're spaming. If you proceed to respam only this dirty serbian propaganda, whithout arguments, I don't now what else I can "talk" whith someone like you, because you don't have the culture to read what your "interlocutor" writes! 
> 
> 
> Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument. 
> 
> 
> If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)
> 
> 
> ...



There was no Albanians in ancient times, do you see people saying there where Italians, French , Dutch, English etc etc people in ancient times. No you do not, so stop mixing modern terminology of people with ancient tribes.

----------


## Taranis

> I think the word elf is after another meaning
> 
> elf in northern many things by with south is connected with deer (ελαφ-ος) 
> elf might be connected with hunting tribes or cultures who wear deer horns etc mainly deep forest culture
> godess artemis living and worship style, 
> ιερα ελαφος


You are wrong. The Greek word 'elapho-' has a different reflex in Germanic. The PIE root is *elenbho-, which is reflected in English as 'lamb'. Cognates also exist in the Celtic languages (Welsh 'elain', Old Irish 'elit' - both meaning 'doe').




> while the word alba exist in Greek as alabastros albiona 
> probably connection of word white or change of al with la 
> remember the stone for stone is la 
> so maybe in latium is mountain Albani but if it original was mount Labani means rocky mountains as in Pelasgian minoan etc
> compare the word La-riss = Stone fortification or rocky nose (acropolis) 
> Lapis in italian 
> Lapis lazuli 
> Labrys (the stone hammer) 
> 
> ...


You are also wrong here. The word "Albatros" is derived from Arabic via Spanish "_Al_catraz".

Both the Celtic and Germanic (as well as Latin) words are indeed derived from "Albh-".




> There was no Albanians in ancient times, do you see people saying there where Italians, French , Dutch, English etc etc people in ancient times. No you do not, so stop mixing modern terminology of people with ancient tribes.


Well, we have no idea what the Proto-Albanians designated themselves as. As established before, "Albanians" in an exonym (just like "Germans" or "Welsh"), and we do not know how the Proto-Albanians in Antiquity designated themselves.

To pick the example of the Welsh, their self-designation "Cymry" would have been rendered as "Combrogi" in Antiquity. However, we don't see that term. Instead, we only find the designation Britons (Latin 'Britanni', which applied for all Celtic peoples in Britain - at least those living south of the Hadrian's Wall), as well as individual tribal names (Ordovici, Silures, etc.). So, we can expect that the Welsh identity only emerged in the Dark Ages when the Britonic tribes had to band together to fight off the Anglo-Saxons.

For the Proto-Albanians, if they designated themselves as something akin to "Shqiptar" in Aniquity, we should see names like "Skipteri" or "Skipteroi" attested, which we don't.

----------


## Elias2

> Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument.


Stop posting outdated evidence then I'll take you seriously.





> If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)


Out dated evidence.





> f you have contra arguments... 
> *- Tell me when albanians come into Balkans (*don't tell me about any internal movement, field-mountain, mountain-field... addiction to invasions of others, remember here*:* _Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
> Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)
> Dorothy Margaret Vaughan 
> AMS Press, 1976
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg_*
> *_Or this one:_ _Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg_*
> Or this:
> ...


Oudated evidence, albanians are everywhere were they are now because they were Muslim in the Ottoman empire, and had greater freedom of movement.



> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg*), from where ? (and why there are no any serious institution in the World, that confirm that migration)... ?
> - Tell me how albanians called them self in middle ages, and what is the history of that name in this region ?*


*

What do you mean no serious institution? its recorded when the first mention of albanians came to be by the Italians. Albanians called themselves what they call themselves now, shiptar. Its a big deviation to think that the Gheg albanians called themselves that and latter they used the term Shiptar.

*


> - Tell me why they now are still called Albanian, and what is the history of this name in this region ?


you don't call yourselves albanian, you call ouselves shiptar, its a very big difference.




> - Tell me why albanians, when after all thraco-illyrian (from Illyria, Macedonia & Epir region) tribes, retread in the mounains around the Illyrian tribe Albanoi, decided to call themself shqiptar (what is the meaning of this name) ?


These two don't make sence. Illyrians didn't retreat into the mountains and call themselves shiptar, thats albanian nationalistic history you are talking. Shiptars arrived in albanian in the middle ages.




> - Tell me why albanians lived in the mountains and latter the slavs in the fields ?
> - Tell me who are the native, those who live in the mountains, or those who live in the fields ?


Shiptars didn't just live in mountains, so this doesn't matter. The slavs also live in mountainous regions yet you say they are invaders? double standards of logic?




> - Tell me why they have pelasgian, illyrian, thracian, etruscan, hittite... words in their lexicon?


Illyrian and thracian words came form the "slavs". The others I can't comment on for the lack of knowledge.




> - Tell me why they have greek and latin atrocities in their langauge ?
> - Tell me how can they borrow so much Latin and a few Greek words, if they whould not live near them (greeks) or under them (latins), when they (latins) invaded Illyrian peninsula ?


Tosk dialect. Vlach influence. Direct greek influene in teh south and latin influence across the adriatic.



> - Tell me why some albanian roots and other small semantic units are in the greek and latin language ?
> - Tell me from where are derived these albanian pure words (which are not greek, not latin, not slavic... but a particular language in their own) ?


From where ever region shiptars migrated from, their native language.



> - Tell me why all international serious scientists (linguists), whith the method of comparison of the language, and etymology ... have reached the conclusion that Albanian is one of the oldest languages ​​of the continent (are they all nationalist) ?


except for they havn't, the Illyrian theory of albanians is similar to the dorian greek invasion of the penisula, its outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore, except for albanians.



> *- Tell me why albanians language has so much sub-dialects (Dr. Robert Elsie was registred 137 of them, but there are much more); Does that mean that these people have lived in a wider region (about ancient greeks, or the elite of the region, they were barbarians= Pelasgians, or Thraco-Illyrian tribes... Epirotes, Macedonians...), but of the same culture (the same language) ?*


No it doesn't mean anything except there are many dialects.






> Some albanian were able better to survive when they change their religion in Islam, because then the differences beetwen south slavic invaders and new greeks, became double (national & religious). Other orthodox albanians become the greaters greeks and slavs... you can see it today from their DNA ;)
> Also I posted you the first constitution of the new Greek state in 1821
> This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece


This proves your nationalistic logic when you use terms as "greater greeks". Albanians need to start learning outside of theri nationalistic dogmas.






> ...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.


because more than just greeks fought for the indepedence.





> You have a great fantasy, but why you post in a thread about the albanians, when you don't now nothing at all about these people.
> Albanians have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!).


Albanians don't have a survivial history, you just think so because thats your nationalistic construction. I don't care about changing your mind, nationalism is a disease that corrupts the mind.







> Albanian intelectuals have another job to do... how to make money, because we still are poorest people of Europe ;)


You call youself an intelectual yet you take evidence like the one below from the 1770's as fact.

I think the most ironic thing about albanian historiography is they paint themselves as "natives' and slavs the invaders, when it's becomming more clear that the opposite is true. The people who live from croatia to the black sea (bulgarians) all speak a mutually recognizable language and genetics have proven them to be around for a long time. These "slavs" as most of europe calls them, are in a greater position to claim they decend from Thaco-Illyrian and the Thraco-Illyrian lanauge.

Albanians would never accept this because it completly put their nationalistic historiography on its head, and politically, this whole push to claim Kosovo as albanian native land though Illyrianization would be negated. 

Maybe after tensions settle down Albanians can become more objective._ 



_

----------


## razor

question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?

----------


## Yetos

> a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins



that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia, 

is the hat we might say as pelasgian, 
its origin might be from Levant or minor asia, 

simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
while Iapetoc had another way , 
according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc 
while the north part at troy wars left for etruria (1200-800 BC) (pelasgian argos) that was taken by aeolians when thyrrenians left
an old branch from Theba invaded North mixed with Celtoids created Illyrians,

searching the Albanian language by many we find common words remnants of Pelasgian,

but true Albanians were the Thracian tribe albocense from Dacia who migrated in today albania pushed by Slavs, or Northen toyrkoi
to the city of germidava,
also a case of Cumans since Anju creator of Alba was cuman, and a possible mix of Thracian+italians +illyrians that happened at at Arbano (Germidava) as written in Maniakis Army who was an elite of troops in south Italy, and redraw at 1040, 

I find the Kadmeian case more logic, if compare the HG and the linguistic, 
than the case that center of all pelasgian was Albania and even they migrated to palaistine, 
(maybe Goliath was Albanian?)

the difference is that from homer we realize that achilleus and odyseuus and Ajax-Locros were different tribes that spartan and myceneans, 
Odysseus might be Pelasgian, Achilleus might be Thracian, and ajax surely as Locri was Grekos 

that is the difference among Besir and Iapetoc, 

the source center of Pelasgians, and where they split and who were their remnants, 
in Fact Iapetoc if you read him claims that Hebrew have much of pelasgian by posting the work of Yehunda, 

the thing that Besir is claiming is that E-V13 in ALbania is founder effect who spread from there, and not a Arcado-cypriot as we all know, transfered by Illyros son of Cadmus
the paradox is that if Pelasgian according Iapetoc gave the alphabet to Greeks at least 1000 BC why in albania we do not have written forms and written language at least until 1500?
in fact that is the paradox in Balkans, thracians used sometimes the Greek alphabet like in erzerovo ring, Illyrians used Greek letters and later Messapic
since center of pelasgians was Albania as claimed by some, that means that alphabet must be older there and spread from there !!!!

Besir is using Herodotos to say about Pelasgians but does not say that first mention in History of Pelasgians is Smyrna area and minor asia, which means Pelasgians where minor asians who migrate west.
also do not say that thoukidides say that recogns Thyrrenian as Pelasgian,

in the gennetick Maciamo started at thread about if G might be Levantine, 
considering that in ancient etruscan tombs we find enough G which later might migrated North, as also the E-V13 that exist in Balkans, and maybe the J2
we find enough in thesally as also in in Etruria, and some parts of Albania, 
that means that might have a common ancestor nation, but where was the center?

----------


## Sile

> that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia, 
> 
> is the hat we might say as pelasgian, 
> its origin might be from Levant or minor asia, 
> 
> simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
> Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
> while Iapetoc had another way , 
> according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc 
> ...


very interesting
I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?

----------


## razor

Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.

----------


## Yetos

> very interesting
> I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
> Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?


that is the origin of Albocense according Strabo amd their colony is Germi-dava, 
indeed Anju family and many big Albanian families are connected with Alba Lullia, 
that is when Albanians started to spread assimilating local illyrians and aromanis 
in the lands of albocense later migrated Kumans, famous families where Anju Hunjades etc 
there a was a pre-albanian substractum in Illyria, the Germidavians, 
later at maniakis time his army centered there, 
slowly, we have movements from Romania to Albania starting after 1200 when the 1rst wave Arbanites moved to Greece, 
under an invitation of a roman ruler, 

*there is no way mollosians being Albanians, 
*
and I would like to hear your source,

Albanians are a Dacian tribe who colonised Illyria, and from there spread, 
original Albanians are considered the arberesh who moved from Romania with Byzantine army to sicily to Albania to Greece and then back to sicily, 

who have assimilation of older population of Illyrians (Celtic+Pelasgic) and later roman by migrated Albanians, 
just compare it with new world, 
from a few starting colonies, the American continent is almost assimilated by Europeans, Linguistic, but not ethnically, the assimilation created new nations-cultures, 
so we consider a 'white' one as American, US citizen from >200 years, but we also consider a 'black' one from south plantation and also an Indian from Sioux nation for example, but if we go back in time we find tottally different nationalities, 
it depends on what time we see, 
before Colombos there were many nation in America, 
After we have the old Nations (maya-aztecs incas sioux iroquois etc) plus British spanish Dutch francais portoquese, 
after few revolts we the USAers, the Mexicans, the brazilians the Argentinians, 

so it is wrong to name Mexican an aztec at 1400 
an aztec is modern Mexican , 
But we can not say Mexicans are from America and all mexicans are Aztec, or the Europe is Mexican expand, 

now about Tosk and Geg, yes there is a difference, 
I do not know exactly and I do not want to expand, 




try to understand what means founder effect, 






> Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.


yes there is another one in modern Albania and few more in Kossovo bosnia and fyrom,
like kellidava

----------


## Elias2

> question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?


Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.

----------


## Sile

in the 4th century AD, the Roman province of Dacia was on the adriatic sea. 
The 5 provinces of roman dacia where
- Moesia which is modern Serbia
- Dacia Ripensis which is Transylvania alp area
- Dardania which is modern kosovo
- Dacia Mediterranea which is western Bulgaria
- Praevalitana which is modern northern Albania and Montenegro

southern Albania was called Epirus Nova

Illyria had 7 provinces and non where south of Montenegro

Praevalitana was migrated by mostly vlachs

----------


## Devils Advocate

> Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.


Do you even know the difference between Geg, Tosk, Arbresh and Arvanit?(Previously a variation of arbresh, newely made an own dialect in the same line as geg, tosk and Arbresh)

The similar "vocabulary" you talk about is around 200 words, which are categorized to be of Thracian origin not Dacian. 

Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge on Albanian language at all.

----------


## Endri

There is so much to quote here but anyway.


-I read somewhere that Arberesh are Romanians who went to Sicily, then back and then back to sicily.
I must say this is ridiculous. Arberesh are Roman Catholic Albanians. They migrated in Italy after the fall of Scanderbeg state. They were accepted by the King of Napples. Scanderbeg state was a vassal of the Kingdom of Naples and in fact Scanderbeg fought for the King of Naples by his call for an amount of time (2-3 years but i do not remember very well). For this documents exist from the Papal state also from the kingdom of Naples besides the Albanian Scanderbeg times. So this assumption is just ridiculous.


-Also i read the Illyrian and Thracian words in Albanian are from the Slavs.
Slavs assimilated the illyrians and thracians and not the other way around.


-Also about the biggest Illyrian genes in the slavic countries.
I don't see how it could be otherwise. Slavic countries today have at least 3mil Except Monte-Negro. So how did they become so much(considering they are about 7) from about 200.000-300.000 they originally came in the balkans around the 6th century with all the wars in more than 20mil? They assimilated the regional population. This is what we are sayin' lol.


-Taranis this is for you since i see your some sort confused.
Albanians and Shqipetar have no relation. Albania is the medieval name of Albania which at that time by the locals in Byzantine Chronicles was called Arbëri. Can you see any connection between Arbëri-Albanians? The first Albanian country was the "Principality of Arbër". Between the rivers Mat and Shkumbin. I'm not gonna go into the history but it was an absolute monarchy and the Prince was given the title Princeps Arbanorum.I'm interested in knowing if Albania and Arbëri have any similiraties or any common root.


-I read smth about Latin and Greek in Albanian.
I don't think albanian took the Latin and greek words into their language in the 15 century cause is very unlikely. Even I, that know almost shit about languages know that Greek words in albanian are from Classical Greek (See Taranis thread about albanian language in the Forum) and that Latin didn't exist in the 15 century+there are about 80-90 words in albanian that are from latin root but that you can't find in any other latin language , exp Bulcurum or smth like that that is modern day bujk in Albanian (See Taranis thread again). So if Latin didn't exist in the 15 century how did these latin words that don't exist in any other latin language end up in albanian?Also the first albanian book (that we know off) written in albanian is "Meshari i Gjon Buzukut' written between 1554-1555 by a Roman Catholic Priest. Book which translates into albanian a part of the Bible. 


-Albanians weren't always Muslim. 
All albanian were Christian until the Ottoman conquered the Balkans. Gjon Meshari again. So if albania was definitevely conquered 10 years after Scanderbeg death which means it was counquered around 1480. and in 1555 an book was written by a christian in albanian does that mean this christian is a Turk which once arrived in albania converted to Christian within 75 years??? This is a prove that albanian were once christian and this Christian wrote the same language as I write and speak today. Besides i'm Christian myself. Does this mean i'm a Turk who turned Christian at a time when Turks tried everything and put all the harshest measures to turn Christians into Muslim? Impossible.


-I read smth about dialects, Arvanitika and Arberesh.
Arvanitika and Arberesh aren't dialects. They both are Tosk sub dialects. And I speak Tosk. 

This video is Arvanitika spoken today in Greece (youtube.com/watch?v=Re6gQSyM6s4). I left it as text cause since i have less than 10 post i can't publish links.

Anyone knowing Official Albanian can understand them very well, better that it would understand an Albanian from Lissus or Scutari or even Tirana or Durres.


-And last but not least.
If smo comes from somewhere, that somewhere has a name. Where from did the Turks brought us since we aren't Turks? Pls just don't say modern Azerbaijan cause is ridiculous and a shame for you who say it.


PS: Taranis don't forget Arbëri and Albania. Any similarities?

----------


## gtcc1

A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes). All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people. 





> You are wrong. The Greek word 'elapho-' has a different reflex in Germanic. The PIE root is *elenbho-, which is reflected in English as 'lamb'. Cognates also exist in the Celtic languages (Welsh 'elain', Old Irish 'elit' - both meaning 'doe').
> 
> 
> 
> You are also wrong here. The word "Albatros" is derived from Arabic via Spanish "_Al_catraz".
> 
> Both the Celtic and Germanic (as well as Latin) words are indeed derived from "Albh-".
> 
> 
> ...

----------


## Taranis

> A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes).


Yes, I mostly agree up to this part, except that I have my scepticism (on linguistic grounds) that the Albanians have anything to do with the Illyrians. However, I do not agree with this:




> All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people.


If we go by loanwords into Albanian (the oldest stratum are classical Greek loanwords), then yes, the Albanians have been living in approximately their current area since Antiquity. As for "having preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe", that statement I'm afraid makes no sense at all. The available scientific evidence heavily disputes such a statement.

As far as oldest languages in Europe go, the Uralic languages (e.g. Finnish and Estonian) and perhaps Basque are probably the best candidates. 

As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.

----------


## LeBrok

> As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.


This is exactly what one can expect, considering rather small group of inhabitants, overwhelmed by neighbours for few thousand of years. Under these circumstances it is not surprising that Albanian language was highly modified by surrounding strong influences, what is actually surprising is, that it survived at all! 
Lots of herding in high mountains must have saved the nation.

----------


## gtcc1

Taranis,

Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions. There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?

Giuseppe Krispi would write:


…in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)

The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, _Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian_, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.

----------


## Taranis

> Taranis,
> 
> Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions.


Not at all.




> There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?


This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.

There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere _after_ a specific law occured. 

Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there are no loanwords at all in ancient Greek (because there very clearly are), but there is no evidence of Albanian loanwords.




> Giuseppe Krispi would write:
> 
> 
> …in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)
> 
> The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, _Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian_, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.


Sounds like a complete charlatan to me who has no understanding of linguistics.

The whole concept of the Pelasgians, in my opinion, is based on a number of assumptions which may or may not be true:

1) That the Greek term "Pelasgians" refers to the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece (since the usage of the term is vague enough, alternatively "Pelasgian" might refer to the Proto-Greek speakers, as opposed to non-Greek ones).

2) That all the non-Greek elements in Greek can be exclusively assigned to these 'Pelasgians'.

Even if we hold these assumptions to be true (though the second point is certainly false!), there's nothing amongst these "Pelasgian" words that can be tied with Albanian.

Also, I must say that I find it amusing that all people who seek to tie Albanian and 'Pelasgian' somehow try to convince us that the Albanian language was purportedly unchanged across a time frame of 3000 or so years. No language, no matter how conservative, remains the same. In fact, there's plenty of evidence in Albanian itself that shows the language is not very conservative at all.

----------


## zanipolo

A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians

mtDNA on Albanians are 

slavs 65% 
huns 9% 
illyrian 6% 
mongol 11% 
epirote 6% 
greek 3%

In regards to Pelagians is old albanian in language, this is the last of the theories mentioned because the illyrian DNA is far too differerent to albanian.
I read somewhere recently and i need to find it, is that the albanians came via roxalani lands in the aera north of the black sea

----------


## Yetos

Gods I am tired of hearing what ever, 

First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic. 

Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method, 

Third, *E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect*? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?


I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,


and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika? why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language?
Have you ever Read Mpotsari? 
does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?


Search the Data. in another post Epirotes who by STrabo are the Archegonus Greeks Γραικοι are named as non Greeks!!!! 

whatever and whenever,
I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!! 
from someone that never read Greek modern History, 

I even heard that Albania is a poor land, although the estimations and the search say that is the most rich in Balkans in water reserves, in silver in asphalt in minerals, 
I was working in the project about the Hydro-plants 
the one that few years before made riots in Tirana (when people were shoot) 

when I was a Kid I was thinking like a kid, 
Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart. 
even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,

I know that nobody here will take me serious, cause I say bad things to your Hears, I represent the enemy to some in here
But at least some of you who read this understand the charlatanism that is pushed by charlatans.

DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF

there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages. 

E-V13 founder effect??

----------


## Endri

> A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians
> 
> mtDNA on Albanians are 
> 
> slavs 65% 
> huns 9% 
> illyrian 6% 
> mongol 11% 
> epirote 6% 
> ...


This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...




> Gods I am tired of hearing what ever, 
> 
> First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic. 
> 
> Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method, 
> 
> Third, *E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect*? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?
> 
> 
> ...


O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.

Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania. 

Video

----------


## Yetos

> This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...
> 
> 
> 
> O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.
> 
> Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania. 
> 
> Video



I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations, 

First there 3 types of Arbanitika

the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece

the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax 
their dialect is mainly considered next with Arberesh (bukure morea)
The second is the Kastrioti soldiers and followers mainly from Berat area, 
the 3rd is after Kastrioti death until Moschopolis Burn, 

Arbanites are 150 000 in Greece and exist much before 1700, 

after 1912 many Orthodox Albanians came to Greece especially at 1940-45 (Xylia case) 
and after until 1950-60 when Hotza put the mines at the boarder it was a common phenomena Albanians to escape from Hotza to enter Greece, these are not Arbanites, 
as they are not Arbanites all Orthodox Albanians, 
Arbanites are the ones who came at Latin Feudal of Athens the Konga's Καγκουρες
and the real ones are the ones who fought with Kastrioti Kladas etc until the times of Ali Pasha Ioannina vs Argyrokastro war. (Κλεφτο-Αρβανιτες) 
all the rest are not Arbanites, but Albanians

PS Orthodox Albanian does mean Arbanites, 

Albanians enter Greece massive at 1 WW at 2nd WW until '60 and at '86 till today 
interesting is the case of Gorani which have a massive devastation of 40% of their pop to Greece after '91
the ones who enter at 86 today have >20 years old children who can speak albanian as mother tongue, 
that is why I don't trust the video, 
Besides my brother in law is Arbanitis so I know well who are they , how many, 
they have books of genealogies in all of their club-organisations. and their own lexicons.
The first Lexicon of Arbanitica which is also the first attempt of Lexicon in Albanian language is written down by Mpotsari and shows a connection of Klefto-Arbanitika with Tosk which is consider more close to Greek Syntax than Geg
Klefto-Arbanitika is considered a language mostly Albanian with Greek about 50-50
Kangoures are consider a language mostly Albanian geg >50% but accepted the Greek syntax so they speak like Tosk, 

the above population in numbers in their books was about 120 000 people in 70's when Arbanites-Kangoures were considered as elite culture by the dictators. (same with Pagkalos dictaorship)

all the rest are mainly Albanians who like to play the Arbanites.


PS don't mix the Leyktra-Athens Arbanites -Kagkoures with the Kleft-Arbanites, they share no common exept Albanian Vocabulary.


κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
in latin alphabet 
kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
(he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)

κι ος πρισκε Νταουλτζετ(turkish Davoul), να του χιαμου τι μητρενα (kleft-arbanitika of upper Pindus)
in Latin 
ki os priske Davouls, na tu chiamu ti metrena 
(and the ones who stops the organs, his sister will be ..ed)

the above is not mine, but from people who I know, 
in an old effort of writing down and compare Arbanitika. 
the differences are big as you see, as also the similarities, 
in first we have Albanian who, presse?loderne motrene
in second we have Greek kai priske? os na tou mhtris
kieme, chiamou and γαμεω is just a shift of the same word f...
Κ γ χ are easily changed cause all are dental 

another similarity is the word presse and priske I put it in Albanian mainly due to sound
but lets look at Greek vocabulary 
πραττω - πρασσω 
when I end I stop εφερα εις περας - περατωσα from περατωνω 
σο πραττω - πρασσω ( I make, i work,) περας (end-stop) περατωσις (final) 

so the word presse goes more to Albanian but priske if we write it as πρησκε cognates with Greek end with move of a vowel (ανταλλαγη) περας-> πρεας so περασει περατωσει -> presei πρησει (ε+α=η) the double tt-ss goes sk so πρησκει 
as you see the similarities can be the difference.
it is difficult to certify,
another example is Μυρμηξ - μυρμηγκι μαρμαγκαλος ανδ merimange
(myrminx = the ant Greek, marmagkalos = a kind of spider that rounds many times its victim a myries agkalies (μυρ+αγκαλη) or if connect with marmor means white eater-catcher (mar+μεγγενη latin manducare) Albanian merimange a meri+manducare?
or myr+??? (compare myriapod) ?)
As you see myrminx μυρ+μεγγενη sounds same with merimange μερι+μεγγενη
but one is ant and the other is spider 
marmagkalos is a special kind of spider a female one, not aracnhia.
Such similarities make 'scientists' like Kola to say what ever, with no proves
the same is what Albanian nationalist after ismail kandere are working, 
it is like the word Παττατα potatto because is Greek to say that English is after Greek and not a loan from another.
or common roots words to provide them as original of only one, 
imagine that word one eine uno to claim that is Greek after word ενα
that is what cheap 'scientists' claim. 
and believe me they are many, 


don't be shocked when you hear the word χαμουρα, Chamura cause I don't know what it means in Albanian, but in Kleft-Arbanitika means something like f...ed, or whore, and is not connected only with kieme gameo but also with word for down - χαμω -χαμηλα-χους etc

----------


## gtcc1

Taranis,

I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.





> Not at all.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.
> 
> There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere _after_ a specific law occured. 
> 
> Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.
> ...

----------


## LeBrok

> Taranis,
> 
> I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.


gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together. 
Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.

----------


## Endri

> I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations, 
> 
> First there 3 types of Arbanitika
> 
> the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
> Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
> and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece
> 
> the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax 
> ...


I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.

For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, *mainly* in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.




> κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
> in latin alphabet 
> kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
> (he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)


As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.

And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".

And just to make clear, if you wanna know more read [URL"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika"]this[/URL] if not i'm just gonna put some small paragraphs just to show all your point.




> The name Arvanítika and its native equivalent Arbërisht[3] are derived from the ethnonym Arvanites, which in turn comes from the toponym Arbëna (Greek: Άρβανα), which in the Middle Ages referred to a region in what is today Albania (Babiniotis 1998). Its native equivalents (Arbërorë, Arbëreshë and others) formerly were the self-designation of Albanians in general. In the past Arvanitika had sometimes been described as "Graeco-Albanian" and the like (e.g. Furikis, 1934), although today many Arvanites consider such names offensive, as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks and not Albanians.





> While linguistic scholarship unanimously describes Arvanitika as a dialect of Albanian many Arvanites are reported to dislike the use of the name "Albanian" to designate it, as it carries the connotation of Albanian nationality and is thus felt to call their Greek identity into question.



O and that "video" was made by an national TV, the best actually not only in Albania but considered to be on Top 3 for professionalism, technology and everything else in Balkan. The TV which the Greek prime ministers, ministers, opposition leaders, minority and every other Greek goes to if he has smth to say. If you do not want to believe it nobody cares, the truth is that that video is true and unlike your Arvanitika organizations who do everything to deny their Albanian heritage, here by the majority of the people if smth is Greek nobody even thinks to say otherwise, unlike this Arvanitika association in this case. The truth is the truth, it doesn't matter if this associations like it or if they don't like it.

----------


## Yetos

> I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.
> 
> For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, *mainly* in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.
> 
> 
> 
> As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.
> 
> And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".
> ...


*Sorry pal, only by the dates you give 
I see that you know nothing about ARbanitika 
and the old Languages,* *
mainly it is the oposite, 
Search all good linguists,* 

*the rest is like the claim that E-V13 is founder effect 


Arbanites first in peloponese? 
only that is a prove that you read and transmit and you do not know nothing
search better, 

like Aristeidh kolla, 
*

----------


## gtcc1

I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions. For "strong nationalist views and highly skewed information" most Greek activists are second to none. I have never been in Albania, but in writing they seem to be less demagogic than the Greeks. I am sure you have not read anything from Albanian historians, and I have read Greek historians. Let's move away from historians and talk about real things, Albanians have not attempted to expel populations and change the character of regions and say oh, this has always been Greek, like Greeks have done throughout Greece. Be considered. 




> gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together. 
> Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
> gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.

----------


## Taranis

> I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions.


I can only repeat what LeBrok said: re-read my post, and re-read it carefully. I honestly don't care a damn about any kind of animosities on either side (Greeks or Albanians, really), and I take no side in this discussion.

My opinion is solely based on 130+ years of methodology in linguistics and what the languages themselves tell us.

In fact, I would like to quote myself in the context of what I had to say to a different gentlman on this forum who has a vaguely similar view to yourself concerning Albanian:




> Well, I insist on it for two reasons: first, I know the methodology of mainstream linguistics. In particular the comparative method and the concept of sound correspondence, to which the very concept of the Indo-European languages owes its very existence. The second is that I know Albanian well enough to tell you about its sound laws and how Albanian sounds correspond to PIE. In fact, it doesn't matter in this regard if one is talking about Albanian, Celtiberian, Hittite or Tocharian. The rules of the 'game' are always the same.
> 
> 
> 
> And well, I have to tell you that these are not Etruscan numerals. Also, well, if you play this by the book, and pick up for the moment that Etruscan was related with Albanian, how do you explain that Etruscan had such a different sound inventory from Albanian? Which Etruscan sounds would correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa? How do you explain that Albanian has the sounds /b/, /d/, /g/, /ɟ/, /ʒ/, /c/, /ð/, /θ/ etc. while Etruscan hasn't? If you do you homework, and can prove without the inch of a doubt which Etruscan sounds correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa linguists are going to consider the possibility of a relationship (I'm afraid I don't see that happening, however). Otherwise, Jacob Grimm is going to come and bust you...
> 
> Well, actually, let me pick up your examples there. First off, let's take a look at the word for 'two' in various branches of IE:
> 
> Baltic:
> ...

----------


## Endri

> *Sorry pal, only by the dates you give 
> I see that you know nothing about ARbanitika 
> and the old Languages,* *
> mainly it is the oposite, 
> Search all good linguists,* 
> 
> *the rest is like the claim that E-V13 is founder effect 
> 
> 
> ...



What dates? You do realize that I've read this dates not in Internet or any book i bought to learn about this question. I've read and heard this dates on official Albanian school books. If you have smth to complain about the dates you can write a complain letter to the Greek ministry or education or whatever you have there or one directly to the Albanian ministry of science and education and complain, but since this dates are on an official book it means that the Greek Gov, even maybe indirectly agreed to them cause otherwise we by now would have had like at least 5 press conferences by diff greek ministers or vice about this matter.

About the Peloponez, idk if that's the right peninsula name but i mean the peninsula where Athens and it's suburb is located, whatever that peninsula is called, and I said (or i meant) that they *settled* mainly or first there. They might have been as far am concerned even in Timbuktu but they settled in that peninsula whatever it's name is.

The opposite of what? What's mainly the opposite?

And what do you mean by E-V13 founder? Like founder, the one who founded like an company for example. I'm afraid i do not understand you...

----------


## Yetos

> What dates? You do realize that I've read this dates not in Internet or any book i bought to learn about this question. I've read and heard this dates on official Albanian school books. If you have smth to complain about the dates you can write a complain letter to the Greek ministry or education or whatever you have there or one directly to the Albanian ministry of science and education and complain, but since this dates are on an official book it means that the Greek Gov, even maybe indirectly agreed to them cause otherwise we by now would have had like at least 5 press conferences by diff greek ministers or vice about this matter.
> 
> About the Peloponez, idk if that's the right peninsula name but i mean the peninsula where Athens and it's suburb is located, whatever that peninsula is called, and I said (or i meant) that they *settled* mainly or first there. They might have been as far am concerned even in Timbuktu but they settled in that peninsula whatever it's name is.
> 
> The opposite of what? What's mainly the opposite?
> 
> And what do you mean by E-V13 founder? Like founder, the one who founded like an company for example. I'm afraid i do not understand you...



In this forum 
I have many posts about the subject, I am not going to repeat them

search better All Arbanites clubs and organizations and the official and you understand, 
All exept one which is Albanian and claim them shelves as Arbanites, you realize who, 
the same think you claim the same say all Albanians but non search the Data
the kangoure gitoni are not in peloponese but in Lefktra, in 1200-1300 about 
from there under the bless of Venice they moved to peloponese when Nayplio pass under Venice command, and from there majority left 
these are the kangoures, about 60 000 
the others the Klefts arbanites like suliotes and rest are about 1700 and after when Albanians hunt them from berat to Arta and more south to mesologgi, Ali pasha case 
a third group mainly Arbanto-Vlachs came after the Arnauts lute and burn down the Moschopolis. 
I think you better read the story of ARbanites better, as also their language, 
especially the Kleft-Arbanites which are about 50 000 about,

----------


## LeBrok

> I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions. For "strong nationalist views and highly skewed information" most Greek activists are second to none. I have never been in Albania, but in writing they seem to be less demagogic than the Greeks. I am sure you have not read anything from Albanian historians, and I have read Greek historians. Let's move away from historians and talk about real things, Albanians have not attempted to expel populations and change the character of regions and say oh, this has always been Greek, like Greeks have done throughout Greece. Be considered.


Well, let's skip the Greeks and other bordering countries that might have had bad history with Albania. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to rest of people from 200 other countries around this planet who didn't have emotional connection with Albania. I even singled out german individual Taranis as one to give you objective opinion, and I must say, very educated in linguistics, who also spent his time analyzing Albanian language.

As for myself, I'm polish with no ties to Albania. I personally and briefly knew only one Albanian, and he was one of best tradesmen working on my house. I have no reason to undermine and derogate Albanians and their language. 

If you think that we, in this context, will disregard all Albanian's post about Albanian language, I must tell you that this is not true. I, and I'm sure Taranis too, have a big respect to Endri and his/her posts on this subject. Even though he/she is Albanian, we find his/her post very objective and insightful.

Remember, we are not your enemy. We just love these subjects and are trying to find the light, or something resembling the truth, in dark basements of history of human kind. Well, maybe except our friend Yetos, the big greek nationalist, always swimming against the current, and never agreeing with anyone.  :Grin:  (Did I hear it on german tv, or was it from thread "You were too long in Greece when...."?)

----------


## Yetos

> Well, let's skip the Greeks and other bordering countries that might have had bad history with Albania. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to rest of people from 200 other countries around this planet who didn't have emotional connection with Albania. I even singled out german individual Taranis as one to give you objective opinion, and I must say, very educated in linguistics, who also spent his time analyzing Albanian language.
> 
> As for myself, I'm polish with no ties to Albania. I personally and briefly knew only one Albanian, and he was one of best tradesmen working on my house. I have no reason to undermine and derogate Albanians and their language. 
> 
> If you think that we, in this context, will disregard all Albanian's post about Albanian language, I must tell you that this is not true. I, and I'm sure Taranis too, have a big respect to Endri and his/her posts on this subject. Even though he/she is Albanian, we find his/her post very objective and insightful.
> 
> Remember, we are not your enemy. We just love these subjects and are trying to find the light, or something resembling the truth, in dark basements of history of human kind. Well, maybe except our friend Yetos, the big greek nationalist, always swimming against the current, and never agreeing with anyone.  (Did I hear it on german tv, or was it from thread "You were too long in Greece when...."?)



good point LeBrok
South Balkanic people (including me) are 'war-head' or 'warm-head'. 
and many times we follow fanatics who are pushing 'news' and paid by goverments, 
(remember Nazi and Goebels)

just think that after crisis, Greek 'scientists' prove that Greeks found New Zealand before Maori 
same is in every Balkanic country, 
the problem is that some are pushing ideas like the above, the case of kangoure gitoni is a wrong tranmission to those who did not know, by officials 
for example all say one and other, but who knows that dictator Pagkalos was one of them, as also prime ministers in the past, and they are mostly the richest among Atheneans,
on the other hand nobody speaks about Ismail Vlore and his newspaper etc

the problem in Balkans is that in order to keep people stop talking about their life, their status, economics, all day tv shows semi-porn, and 'scientists' who spread buls.... 
and people believe them. 

no need to put more examples, of my talk, 
when linguists say that Albanian has a small connection with Thracian, the next day one 'scientist' will say Thracian were Albanians, or Makedonians were Slavs, or Bulgars were Iranians, or Turkish is autochthonus 
I even heard by someone that Alexander reach Yunan in china cause Greece in Semitic languages is Yunan-istan

----------


## Endri

> In this forum 
> I have many posts about the subject, I am not going to repeat them
> 
> search better All Arbanites clubs and organizations and the official and you understand, 
> All exept one which is Albanian and claim them shelves as Arbanites, you realize who, 
> the same think you claim the same say all Albanians but non search the Data
> the kangoure gitoni are not in peloponese but in Lefktra, in 1200-1300 about 
> from there under the bless of Venice they moved to peloponese when Nayplio pass under Venice command, and from there majority left 
> these are the kangoures, about 60 000 
> ...


Just so i make sure...what are you tryin' to prove? That Arvanites are not Albanian (by origin) or that they do not speak an Albanian sub dialect, or both?

----------


## Yetos

> Just so i make sure...what are you tryin' to prove? That Arvanites are not Albanian (by origin) or that they do not speak an Albanian sub dialect, or both?



read carefull what I am writing, 

and start understand who is Arbanites and about whom you you talking, 
All orthodox Albanians are not Arbanites, neither all Albanians are Arbanites neither All Arbanites are Albanians, 

Deutsch is German but German does not mean Deutsch

make clear about who ARbanites you are Speaking.


the kangoures (Arbanites of Leyktra Athens etc) 
are from around Lake Skodra North Albania 
they are almost same with Arberesh, 
they moved to Greece after a disease (or a massacre) to Help the Latin rulers of AThens after their invitation, they settled in North of Athens around Theba, and from there split, 
they came at about 1240-1300 (need to search to tell you the exact year) 
their dialect is old Albanian Speakers mainly, 

You probably speak about them, 
but these are not the only one Arbanites but 1/3 of what is called Arbanites. I gave you estimation about 60 000 with a possible mistake of 10-15% 

about the rest of Arbanites is another story, which is different to every case and family, 

All Arbanites are from area that is today Albania, 
But that does not mean that all Arbanites are Albanians, 

it is like the exchange of population of '23 among Greeks and Turks, a case that affected a few Chamerian families, 

in '23 came from minor Asia Turkey hundreds thousands o million peoples 
from some areas it was prohibited to speak Greek, so they spoke Turk, (turkophones) what that means? that they all were Turks? no 
I will not expand more to that, 

so what I am saying is that Arbanites means Albanophones, 
part of them like Kangoures are from North Albania, and by what i read in some net pages and Dienekes they share same genetic with Arberesh with different autosomal due to 800 years living in Greece, But what were they? their genetic show big concentration of I Hg by what i can remember, 
Now if they are Albanians or Greeks or Illyrians or Thracians?
they just claim that they are from today Albania, Arbanitika dialect Speaking. 
that is a fact that nobody can deny, neither Greek neither Albanian Neither Slav.

the Arbanto-Vlachs mainly from Moschopolis is another case, they are consider and claim them shelves as Aromani and their language is mainly Latin Aromani with Albanian elements. 

The Kleft-Arbanites is last case, 
in this case each family or village has its own history, and i read many due to relatives of mine, 


All the above are considered Arbanites, about which you are talking?

----------


## FBS

Citation from:http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies.

----------


## FBS

one more citation: 
Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).

And a big Thanks to Italy  :Smiling:

----------


## Yetos

> Citation from:http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html
> 
> Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies.


First. Pomaks is a special case from 1923, I remind you the Poamak Strungle to Join and aceepted by Greek in 50-60 against Bulgaria of Zivkov, 

Second Arbanites as minority is to them, 
Arbanites share heritage of Greek national Heroes, of Greek Big politician prime minister and of Greek modern Scientists, 
Now if you understand the term Arbanites as it given the rest is up to you, 
I guess we don't disagree about my post, cause you know it is True, but then with what?
I think your problem is
why in today Greece that the last 15 years moved 1,500 000 Albanians the Greek does recogn Albanians as a minority and opens school to them?
*the answer is that after 1912 and the liberty of Albania and its form as a state, the terminology Arbanites stop, all the rest are Albanians who migrate, not minority.* 

so all ALbanians that enter Greece after 1912 are considered as Greeks-North Epirotans or Albanians by nation,

*Third Aromani does means Romanian* 
I wonder the Aromani in Albania do you consider them as Romanians? 
it is another case the Latin Speakers of Balkans and another the Romanians of Balkans, 
cause both Speak Latin does not mean that they are Romanians, 
Aromani have high concentrations of R1b of Roman-Italian times of Roman empire.

*4rth if you believe that Makedonians are Slavs then no need to discuss further,* 

even in genetic of M458 allthough the old theory is making them Slavs, the modern is denying that they are Slavs, since they older than the R1a which is considered Scythian -Sarmatian, 
Soon R1a M458 will a mark of older than Slavic populations, with a possibility to be Anatolian origin, not Asian-Sibir,
just wait genetic to speak more in few years,

----------


## Yetos

> one more citation: 
> Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).
> 
> And a big Thanks to Italy



you are talking about Kangoure Arbanitika, 
I inform you that Kangoures are not minority but equals, the situation comes every 30 in discuss among them, 
it is up to them, and only up to them to say what they want, 

*Kangoures had and have big places in the army and in govermant, in which country happens that?


Kangoures are not regognised as Albanian minority, no matter Albania goverment wants to, but as a Greek minority. 
if they want to save their language it is up to them, and believe me they do in their own clubs and organisations, as their language-dialect exist for >800 years in Greece, so all efforts of Albanians to open Albanian schools in Greece are just an effort to use Greek money to be spend so Albanians in Greece learn Albanian, and not about Arbanites.

if Albania wants to open schools in Greece about Albanian language it is up to them, 
let them spend the money as Greece does in Foreign lands like Germany Australia Russia USA etc, 

YOU CAN NOT FORCE GREECE TO SPEND MONEY SO THAT ALBANIANS THAT CAME AT '97 after the pyramid collapse LEARN ALBANIAN, 
FORCE ALBANIAN GOVERMENT TO SPEND MONEY TO BUILD SCHOOLS FOR THE ALBANIAN IMMIGRANTS 

*the kangourika language-dialect today is spoken by >35 000 to 50 000 after a population of about 60 000, how they manage? after 200 Greek state and more than 800 years in greece if they are hunt by Greeks as you say?
cause that is a myth, they have their own schools, their own teachers and professors and magazines and even a search and develop area in the university of Athens, 
*the rest are just political games.



When Albania pay money so that North Epirotans learn Greek,
When Albania spend money so that Aromani of Albania learn their Latin Language, 
then Speak about the others, of anti-minority policy.

Same is with Turkey, 
When it opens the old Greek scools of Con/polis when the big school of Chalke opens again then we might speak again, 

as about Fyrom? no comment, 
Pan-Slavism at its maximum.

*

----------


## FBS

Well, I am not talking or claiming anything actually, so I do not understand what are you getting so worked up about. I only made the quotations from the Greek Helsinki Monitor. Maybe you should tell them that you do not agree with what they say.

----------


## Neander

> Albanians are a Dacian tribe who colonised Illyria, and from there spread, 
> original Albanians are considered the arberesh who moved from Romania with Byzantine army to sicily to Albania to Greece and then back to sicily,


Why they are not Illyrians which retreat from Dacia?

Do you now Dacia was heavily colonized by Illyrians?? the tribes of Dalmats, Sardeats, Piruistes etc, colonized Dacia as miners, and then retreat in Dardania and etc..

What do you think about Dacian-Thracian-Illyrian conection? Simmilar people which lived together, for long time, with same origins, even they incvaded together, for example Dardanians (which are called alternately thracians and illyrians) inmvaded Anatolia, built Troy etc.

And why do you think illyrians vanished in their homeland (where logic says they were stronger) but they saved identity in the diaspora / Dacia (where logic says they were weaker, sa they were diaspora) and then came to Albania/Kosovo??? Or maybe they saved identity since there they met their brothers Dacians which spoke the same language, so there was not danger of assimilation???

Why, you have no answer for all these problems??? Or why your answers don't explain anything but just make it more dificult, and you don't live answer for anything???

----------


## Sile

> Why they are not Illyrians which retreat from Dacia?
> 
> Do you now Dacia was heavily colonized by Illyrians?? the tribes of Dalmats, Sardeats, Piruistes etc, colonized Dacia as miners, and then retreat in Dardania and etc..
> 
> What do you think about Dacian-Thracian-Illyrian conection? Simmilar people which lived together, for long time, with same origins, even they incvaded together, for example Dardanians (which are called alternately thracians and illyrians) inmvaded Anatolia, built Troy etc.
> 
> And why do you think illyrians vanished in their homeland (where logic says they were stronger) but they saved identity in the diaspora / Dacia (where logic says they were weaker, sa they were diaspora) and then came to Albania/Kosovo??? Or maybe they saved identity since there they met their brothers Dacians which spoke the same language, so there was not danger of assimilation???
> 
> Why, you have no answer for all these problems??? Or why your answers don't explain anything but just make it more dificult, and you don't live answer for anything???


Wrong

Thracians where the most populous people in the balkans in ancient times, then greeks, then Macedonains and lastly illyrians who where the last to enter the balkans...........read what the historians wrote

----------


## King Bardhyl

> you are talking about Kangoure Arbanitika, 
> I inform you that Kangoures are not minority but equals, the situation comes every 30 in discuss among them, 
> it is up to them, and only up to them to say what they want, 
> 
> *Kangoures had and have big places in the army and in govermant, in which country happens that?
> 
> 
> Kangoures are not regognised as Albanian minority, no matter Albania goverment wants to, but as a Greek minority. 
> if they want to save their language it is up to them, and believe me they do in their own clubs and organisations, as their language-dialect exist for >800 years in Greece, so all efforts of Albanians to open Albanian schools in Greece are just an effort to use Greek money to be spend so Albanians in Greece learn Albanian, and not about Arbanites.
> ...


Well, i am new here. But you guys typically use references to confirm your theories?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Gods I am tired of hearing what ever, 
> 
> First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic. 
> 
> Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method, 
> 
> Third, *E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect*? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?
> 
> 
> ...


 _"Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over_"

Aristir Kola was an important scholar who was eliminated from EYP, greek secrete police, and serbian sercete police,for his contribution, for the liberation of Kosova.

_"the Ismail Kandere Method,"_

His name is ISMAIL KADARE.

_"I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,_"

Of course, is finished. Now we are free to speak even about Arvaniti people, during Hodja regime was prohibited. The question is: Greece will continue together with Iran to be an Theokracy, or will be an Democracy?
_
"and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika"?_

Arvanitika, is spoken in different subdialects, all part of Tosk dialect. 
But there are some villages which started from toponims we can conclude that their origine was from North Albania , like Has in Athens ore Kelmend, if i am not wrong in Thessaly.

_"why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language"?_

It is strictly forbidden by the Greek government.

_Have you ever Read Mpotsari?_ _
does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?"_

Suliotes are Christian Cham and their dialect is cham is part of the Tosk dialect.

_"I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!!_ _
from someone that never read Greek modern History,"

_Of course Greece was liberate from the Ottoman occupation by Arvaniti,i.e. Albanians, not just started from them. Of course there were other factors, such Greate Powers, Russia, GB, France. But speaking about internal factors we can say that Arvaniti,i.e. Albanians, liberate Greece. Can you tell me a name, a greek hero?
An citation just to make clear this idea:
_I went in the evening to ThouveneFs and Marshal-_ _Randon's receptions. At the Hotel des Affaires Etrangeres_ _I found in the most magnificent private rooms in the world_ _about fifteen persons. Among them was General Kalergi,_ _the author of the Greek Revolution of 1843, now Minister_ _from Greece. I asked if my acquaintance, R_____ was still_ _Minister of Foreign Affairs ?_ _Kalergi. — Certainly not, or 1 should not be here. We_ _have had a change of Ministry._ _We talked of Garibaldi.__If he establishes himself for a few weeks he will succeed,_ _not by the aid of the Sicilians, who are a feeble race, but_ _by that of Italians, Frenchmen, and perhaps Germans, who_ _will flock to join so distinguished a partisan and so attrac-_ _tive a cause. In that case the Sicilian revolution will_ _resemble ours. The real Greeks would never have driven_ _out the Turks. They were too degraded even to wish for_ _liberty. For many years after we had achieved our own_ _independence they called the times of Turkish rule ^the_ _good times.^ It was the Albanians and Macedonians and_ _-foreigners who fought the Turks._  Conversations with M. Thiers, M. Guizot, and other distinguished persons, during the Second Empire; (1878) VOL II p 304-305

I don`t agree totally with this gentelman, because my idea is that Greeks simply did not exist.

_"there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages"._ Whohaa, you are a new fresh nation.
About Albania:

This man, Robert Elsie is the autor of this book, Robert Elsie (2010). Historical Dictionary of Albania. Historical Dictionaries of Europe *75*. Scarecrow Press. ISBN 978-0-8108-6188-6.
During a TV show the director of the program asked him:
Google translate
*First I want to share with the viewer the reason why you are in “Albania” this time. Books that you will have the vocabulary historical promote Albania and Kosovo in Albanian and English. Can you explain to viewers what these books?*
_These books came out in English recently, is a periodical books that includes every country in the world and I was charged with designing a publication for Albania. Called historical dictionary of Albania and Kosovo but in the end are more like vocabulary, general encyclopedia with information not only historical but also the culture, economy, geography, etc.. I started with the volume of Albania. I put a limit on the volume no more than 250 pages needed to do this and when I finished more than 500 pages. The publisher was a bit disappointed. She said, "If we walk so, the volume of the country will come greater than the volume of Russia" nonetheless accepted and actually went higher than that of Russia, this small encyclopedia of Albania._


_"when i was a Kid I was thinking like a kid,_ _
Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart. 
even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,_"

I will give you a little help, finding the truth.
Thank you.

----------


## Yetos

pfffffffff

Albanian propaganda learner and radio transmission.

pfffffffffffffff

every linguist laugh with the lawer who wanted to be the great linguist, writting whatever

as for rest, 

I am not going to repat my shelf,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> pfffffffff
> 
> Albanian propaganda learner and radio transmission.
> 
> pfffffffffffffff
> 
> every linguist laugh with the lawer who wanted to be the great linguist, writting whatever
> 
> as for rest, 
> ...


 The lesson started bad. I promise you in all my posts, i will never, repeat never i will make use of albanian materials, or "albanian propaganda", because in that case you have to log out imediatly. I promise you i will use only greek and indipendent sources.

----------


## King Bardhyl

Let`s start with the famous question made by the first King of Greece, King Otto. "Where are the greeks"?
Any idea? Can you help us finding them? Meanwhile i am going to jump into the sea. Bye.

----------


## Yetos

> Let`s start with the famous question made by the first King of Greece, King Otto. "Where are the greeks"?
> Any idea? Can you help us finding them? Meanwhile i am going to jump into the sea. Bye.



Lets finish with what the famous old man said, Kolokotronis Γερος του Μωρια,
'First for the Albanian is crime and money'

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Lets finish with what the famous old man said, Kolokotronis Γερος του Μωρια,
> 'First for the Albanian is crime and money'


When did he dais that ? Before he was prisoner or after ? Before he saw his parents and friends including his son to be kille, poisoned and imprisoned ore after ? 
BTW can you tell me how was killed Gjergj Karaskaqi ,the famous hero?

P. S. No greek hero name again ? Where are the greeks

----------


## Yetos

> When did he dais that ? Before he was prisoner or after ? Before he saw his parents and friends including his son to be kille, poisoned and imprisoned ore after ? 
> BTW can you tell me how was killed Gjergj Karaskaqi ,the famous hero?
> 
> P. S. No greek hero name again ? Where are the greeks



radio transmission of Albanian propaganda,
pffffff]

where king otto said that and for what reason?
surely not the reason you would like, too, ssearch why, just put your mind to think,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> radio transmission of Albanian propaganda,
> pffffff]
> 
> where king otto said that and for what reason?
> surely not the reason you would like, too, ssearch why, just put your mind to think,


When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?"

His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".

Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"

Also you can read FINLAY, and a bunch of other scholars .
As you see is "greek propaganda".

For the curiosity of non greek members, Kolokotronis alias Bythguri (Stoneass in english ) was an albanian bandit, today he is the most important hero of Greek Revolution.

----------


## Yetos

> When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?"
> 
> His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".
> 
> Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"
> 
> Also you can read FINLAY, and a bunch of other scholars .
> As you see is "greek propaganda".
> 
> For the curiosity of non greek members, Kolokotronis alias Bythguri (Stoneass in english ) was an albanian bandit, today he is the most important hero of Greek Revolution.



ΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑ

you are funny you know,

so an Albanian bandit, with Greek surname said about Albanians 'Πρωτον δια τον Αλβανον το χρημα και το εγκλημα'
besides κωλον and Κιτρος or kotros = kolokotronis first is Greek and second is half Greek half thracian, 
compare κοτυωρα, Κωθορον, Kotrys etc


besidew about who send him to prison, 
ask the one you mention, Otto Friedrich Ludwig von Wittelsbach, who knew Hellenistic Greek and koine , but not the modern idioms, so all spoken were unknown to him
*although Athens was inhabited also by Arbanites, so I am not impressed, and you say nothing to me,*
It is like I go to Moschopolis of 18th century before Albanians burn it to the ground, expect to hear Albanian, and instead I hear Aromani Vlach,
I would also say the same

So your Lesson 2 finished,
you lose again,

want to go to lesson 3?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> ΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑΗΑ
> 
> you are funny you know,
> 
> so an Albanian bandit, said about Albanians 'Πρωτον δια τον Αλβανον το χρημα και το εγκλημα'
> besides κωλον and Κιτρος or kotros = kolokotronis first is Greek and second is half Greek half thracian, 
> compare κοτυωρα, Κωθορον, Kotrys etc
> 
> 
> ...



You learned something, Athens was just a albanian village, like Peleponesi, all Attiki, Islands,etc. 
So back to the Real question :"Where are the greeks"?
It was not question of different linguistic experiment made by greeks in 200 years of modern Greece. The nobels of court answered to their King :"There are no greeks, your citizens are albanians, faithfully to your monarchy . 
It's brought to us by an greek author. 
It's said that King Otto was furios with his staff, His words "Why i lose time learning greek, why you don't you told me to learn albanian"?
About Kolokotronis he was an albanian,and in a moment when he saw all those peoples including himself, finished killed and imprisoned by the greek goverment and Phanarioti Loby he said :
....o skilos. ...o fanariotis. 
....this dog. ... the phanariotis. 
Congratulation you are making significant progress.

----------


## Yetos

> You learned something, Athens was just a albanian village, like Peleponesi, all Attiki, Islands,etc. 
> So back to the Real question :"Where are the greeks"?
> It was not question of different linguistic experiment made by greeks in 200 years of modern Greece. The nobels of court answered to their King :"There are no greeks, your citizens are albanians, faithfully to your monarchy . 
> It's brought to us by an greek author. 
> It's said that King Otto was furios with his staff, His words "Why i lose time learning greek, why you don't you told me to learn albanian"?
> About Kolokotronis he was an albanian,and in a moment when he saw all those peoples including himself, finished killed and imprisoned by the greek goverment and Phanarioti Loby he said :
> ....o skilos. ...o fanariotis. 
> ....this dog. ... the phanariotis. 
> Congratulation you are making significant progress.


*Now you are going to tell me that Greeks are Albaninas who learn a wrong language?*  :Useless:  

first of all try to understand the difference among news, search, science, and jokes,
Papntonioy was a kind of literrary joker, ανεκδοτα, for pleasant reading.

second,

no ones denies that Arbanites came at 1200 after the invitation of a latin ruler, a foreign one crusader, of the duchy of Athens,
Arbanitika is an ancient dialect, more ancient than modern Albanian that strangely share much Italian and Greek than modern Albanian,
about phanatiote and Con/polis Greeks is another case,
are going to teach me the mistakes of the Greek revolution?
or you want to tell me that All Greeks are Arbanites?  :Laughing: 

and to finish with you, 
try the numbers given by the same Arbanites clubs and unions, instead of guesses,

----------


## King Bardhyl

Arvaniti dialect is more older than Albanian language ? Are you serious ?
I am using the words of Mr. Pangallos junior :"Those greeks who don't accept that arvanitica is a dialect of albanian language,are cloves".
I am using an cell -phone ,after i will bring the reference .

----------


## King Bardhyl

I like your style,jumping from one argument to another.
I am telling you that 1821 does not exist greek population . The majority were albanians ,there were also vlachs, slavs,turkish,gipsy and some happy greek villigers.

----------


## Yetos

> I like your style,jumping from one argument to another.
> *I am telling you that 1821 does not exist greek population* . The majority were albanians ,there were also vlachs, slavs,turkish,gipsy and some happy greek villigers.


HAHAHAHA you are funny,

now lets go more, 

so in 1821 does not exist Greek population,
SO AT 1821 NON GREEKS FOUGHT FOR FREEDOM OF ????
and at first Εθνοσυνελευσις Nation Gathering, first congress, first free greek meeting, 
*SO IN 1821 NON GREEKS REVOLT*, *THE NON GREEKS WHO TOOK PART AT FIRST NATIONAL CONGRESS DECIDE TO MAKE OFFCIAL LANGUAGE THE ΚΑΘΑΡΕΥΟΥΣΑ GREEK?* 

*wow, Fantastic, VERY SMART,*  :Good Job:  INDEED, 

PS *you just make my day*, Going out to tell some friends about that arquement, *the fantastic lesson/joke of cleverness you gave me today.*

----------


## King Bardhyl

Can you give me a name of a greek hero? It`s the fourth time i answering you. But not albanian, greek.

----------


## King Bardhyl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA 
What`s your coment about this documentary? It is produced by a well known Greek telvision SKAI, the orthodox church of Greece did everything to stop this, it`s with english subs.

----------


## Yetos

> Can you give me a name of a greek hero? It`s the fourth time i answering you. But not albanian, greek.


I gave you one Kolokotronis

----------


## Yetos

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA 
> What`s your coment about this documentary? It is produced by a well known Greek telvision SKAI, the orthodox church of Greece did everything to stop this, it`s with english subs.


YOU ARE MAKING YOUR SHELF REDICULOUS.
*watch minute 5:05 That was the language Otto expected to hear.*
and you come with an anekdote of a scholarship, who wrote the books for kids at elementary, and is full of jokes and smart stories to amαze the kids and you tell me what?


*ANSWER MY QUESTION*

*DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID TO FIGHT OTTOMAN EMPIRE, IN THE NAME OF LIBERTY OF SOMEONE WHO DID NOT EXIST,
AND NOT ALSO THAT BUT CHANGE THEIR LANGUAGE TO AN UNKNOWN ONE?*

pffffffffff


*AND SINCE YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND*

ΚΑΡΑΙΣΚΑΚΗΣ kara-Skje, in the Athens fight, Turks took metals from the monuments to make bullets,
KarasKakis show that, and went and asked from Arbanites to be the dealers with the Turks
he make a deal and gave Turks ammunitions, so they stop ruining the monuments,
Tell me!!!! what was so convising that Athens Arbanites had with Turks and they trust them, and not Allies fleet and Karaiskakis?
just wondering with funny stories you say,

what is fascinating in your post, is the minute 22:29,
Fantasting, even in 1922, we excance populations, 
DID YOU? 

I am sure you are a soldier in the team, so better stop,
let you commanders do the propaganda, 
at least are you paid for such crup you write?

If you are interested in Truth about 1821 and after

THIS IS A GOOD MOVIE,
it is Ναυπλιον, the babylon of 1821,
the only one who is missing is the Pontic the Crimean and the Kappadokian Greeks,
*Altoygh Greek Revolt started by Pontian Greeks* 




it si very funny the situation of 1830 indeed.
Ottoman turkish was still the major language of commerce.
the Peloponese leather merchant
the Cretan, 
The Corfu/Zante, Italian/European dressing
The Scholars from Con/polis/
The Smyrnean, basturma eater
The Chiotes candy merchants
The Aromani Vlach
The Sarakatsani Mountaineers
The Arvanitan warlord
the Anapli lokanta
etc etc
the funny is that allthough they manage to understand each other,
NOBODY understand the ancient Greek min 28.14

----------


## King Bardhyl

> I gave you Kolokotronis



He was born on 3 April 1770 in the old Messina. Even in his young age, he was joined to the insurgents in mountains. He spent all of his life among Albanians, regardless if they were Muslims or Christians. Kolokotroni considered as his own brothers, Marko Bocari and Ali Farmaqi. Almost all of his followers were Albanians from Morea and Chameria. The nickname 'Kolokotron' is just a simple translation of Albanian expression "Bythëguri" (a word which is understood by every Albanian), and that title bore his grandfather. The surname of his family was in fact "Çergjini" ("*Çer*" in old Albanian means 'clever, intelligent, skillful', while '*Gjin*' is an medieval Christian Albanian name).


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...tishReview.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview303.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview304.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...lokotronis.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...otronis260.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ekpictures.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ictures201.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...phoenixpic.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...nian/monma.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...n/monma181.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...n/coloalbo.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...oloalbo110.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...oloalbo111.png

Greece: The Modern Sequel by Giannēs Koliopoulos and Thanos Veremē
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...ticBallads.jpg


Page 72 of the book "Kolokotrones the klepht and warrior" is as follows;
oung _Gianni_ Kolokotrones, who till then had been known by his baptismal name Gianni (John) only, here exchanged that name for _Gennaios_ (brave), which was bestowed upon him by his fellow combatants and others for his heroic conduct in the field, and by which name alone he was ever afterwards called. 

CHAPTER III.

IN the spring of 1808 Veli Pasha alarmed Ali Pharmakes by demanding that either he should deliver up his tower, or give himself or his son as a hostage into his hands. He was stirred up to this by Deligianni. Deligianni, not really desiring that Ali should even exist, told Veli that he must demolish his tower, and thus he would demolish all his strength. To Ali he said: " Do not go away, for Veli intends to kill thee." So Ali Pharmakes made preparations to oppose himself to Veli Pasha.

My grandfather, _Gianni_ Kolokotrones, and the grandfather of Ali, had been friends and adopted brethren. My grandfather was killed, but the friendship was continued between my own father and the father of Ali; and we also were sworn friends. Remembering this friendship, and counting upon it, Ali wrote a letter to me to this effect:—

"dear Fellow-countryman,—Veli Pasha is making ready to destroy me—come, and give me your help." 

An Albanian thief.
Celebrated as a Greek Hero.

You want more? And pls use some references.

----------


## King Bardhyl

*And My Favourite.*
I wish there was video footage of this lol

OHPAHHHHHHH


the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)

"for the amusement of her Majesty" Queen of Greece.

Go and find an another greek hero, i know it`s difficult by i trust on you.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> YOU ARE MAKING YOUR SHELF REDICULOUS.
> *watch minute 5:05 That was the language Otto expected to hear.*
> and you come with an anekdote of a scholarship, who wrote the books for kids at elementary, and is full of jokes and smart stories to amαze the kids and you tell me what?
> 
> 
> 
> *ANSWER MY QUESTION*
> 
> *DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID TO FIGHT OTTOMAN EMPIRE, IN THE NAME OF LIBERTY OF SOMEONE WHO DID NOT EXIST,
> ...




You want to speak about Karaiskaqi, OK. This video is in greek, can you translate pls? There are non greek members here. Also can you translate the surname Bithikotsis, pls?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thMH-JQ6gU8
Thank you.

----------


## King Bardhyl

The so-called Greek Revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
benefited from this situation. Greece and Serbia are an experiment made by the Great Powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of Serbia was the Pashiallik of Belgrade, in the case of Greece, there was neither the state nor the Greek nation. This experiment continue still today with FYROM, and maybe are trying to make the same with Kosova. But with Kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.

----------


## King Bardhyl

_"whatever and whenever,
I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!! 
from someone that never read Greek modern History",_ 

Thus began our discussion. Still continue with the same idea?

----------


## Yetos

> He was born on 3 April 1770 in the old Messina. Even in his young age, he was joined to the insurgents in mountains. He spent all of his life among Albanians, regardless if they were Muslims or Christians. Kolokotroni considered as his own brothers, Marko Bocari and Ali Farmaqi. Almost all of his followers were Albanians from Morea and Chameria. The nickname 'Kolokotron' is just a simple translation of Albanian expression "Bythëguri" (a word which is understood by every Albanian), and that title bore his grandfather. The surname of his family was in fact "Çergjini" ("*Çer*" in old Albanian means 'clever, intelligent, skillful', while '*Gjin*' is an medieval Christian Albanian name).
> 
> 
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...tishReview.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview303.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview304.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...lokotronis.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...otronis260.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ekpictures.png
> ...


*STILL YOU ARE WRONG
WHY?*

in your video say something about asking kapodistrias how many Turk were left in Morea?
answer before revolt >47 000 after non,
chamerians were Muslim so Turks,
remember in Messologgi 
inside Greeks Arbanites outside Turk-Albans,

so go back, read again the Ioannina Argyrokastron case and return.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *STILL YOU ARE WRONG
> WHY?*
> 
> in your video say something about asking kapodistrias how many Turk were left in Morea?
> answer before revolt >47 000 after non,
> chamerians were Muslim so Turks,
> remember in Messologgi 
> inside Greeks Arbanites outside Turk-Albans,
> 
> so go back, read again the Ioannina Argyrokastron case and return.


First,it`s not my video. It`s an greek television production, SKAI.
Second, there are no Greeks Arbanites and Turk-Albans. There are Orthodox Albanian and Musslim Albanian, there are also Catholique Albanian. Those how can we call? Italian-Albanian?

----------


## King Bardhyl

So back to the famous question made by King Otto: "Where are the greeks"?

----------


## Yetos

> The so-called Greek Revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
> benefited from this situation. Greece and Serbia are an experiment made by the Great Powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of Serbia was the Pashiallik of Belgrade, in the case of Greece, there was neither the state nor the Greek nation. This experiment continue still today with FYROM, and maybe are trying to make the same with Kosova. But with Kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.


the civil war among Albanians stoped with Ali Pasa.
How many years later Greek revolt started,

and since you want it to say about whatever,
*search Φιλικη Εταιρεια,*
*search the Makedonian revolt in 1821*
search The ΝΑΟΥΣΑ Revolt
search the Kαρατασσος
search the Παππας,
search the revolt in MoldoWallchia principals
ALL same time with strategic moves,

AND YOU STILL DID NOT ANSWER ME,
WHY TURKS TRUSTED THE ATHENS ARBANITES IN THE KARA-SKJE case?

----------


## King Bardhyl

About Kolokotronis etnicity, evrything clear? And about the the killing of Karaiskaqi did you translate the video?

----------


## Yetos

> He was born on 3 April 1770 in the old Messina. Even in his young age, he was joined to the insurgents in mountains. He spent all of his life among Albanians, regardless if they were Muslims or Christians. Kolokotroni considered as his own brothers, Marko Bocari and Ali Farmaqi. Almost all of his followers were Albanians from Morea and Chameria. The nickname 'Kolokotron' is just a simple translation of Albanian expression "Bythëguri" (a word which is understood by every Albanian), and that title bore his grandfather. The surname of his family was in fact "Çergjini" ("*Çer*" in old Albanian means 'clever, intelligent, skillful', while '*Gjin*' is an medieval Christian Albanian name).
> 
> 
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...tishReview.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview303.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...hReview304.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...lokotronis.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...otronis260.png
> http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ekpictures.png
> ...




YOU ARE NOT ONLY FUNNY, 

LETS SEE WHAT KOLOKOTRONIS WROTE ABOUT HIMSHELF
*
'Εις τον καιρόν του Μπότσικα εμβήκαν οι Τούρκοι εις Μοριά. Οι Χρυσοβιτσιώται, Λιμποβιτσιώται και οι Αρκουροδεματίται επήγαν και επολέμησαν εις του Ντάρα τον Πύργο 6000 Τούρκους. Αυτοί εχαλάσθησαν και εγλύτωσεν ο Μπότσικας. Αυτός είχε ένα παιδί, Γιάννη, και ένας Αρβανίτης είπε: "βρε, τι Μπιθεκούρας είναι αυτός!". Δηλαδή, πόσον ο κώλος του είναι σαν κοτρώνι, κι έτσι του έμεινε το όνομα Κολοκοτρώνης. Ο Μπότσικας εσκοτώθη, ο Γιάννης εκρεμάσθη εις την Ανδρούσαν. Ώστε από τα 1553, όπου εφάνηκαν εις τα μέρη μας οι Τούρκοι, ποτέ τους δε τους αναγνώρισαν, αλλ΄ ήσαν εις αιώνιον πόλεμον.* '

where it is saying he was Albanian?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> the civil war among Albanians stoped with Ali Pasa.
> How many years later Greek revolt started,
> 
> and since you want it to say about whatever,
> *search Φιλικη Εταιρεια,*
> *search the Makedonian revolt in 1821*
> search The ΝΑΟΥΣΑ Revolt
> search the Kαρατασσος
> search the Παππας,
> ...


Sometimes my friend you have to use some references. I will made this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay is accepted by all as a serious scholar, let`s see what he had writen:

Mustfai Pasha assembled his army at Ochrida. It consisted of five thousand Mohammedan Guegs, and three thousand Catholic Miridits. These Catholics, who speak the Guegh dialect of the Albanian lan- guage, boast of their descent from the Christians who fought against the Turks under their national hero Skanderbeg, or George Castriot. But their hatred of the orthodox Greeks has long since bound them in a closer alliance with the Mussulman tribes in their neighbourhood, than with any body of Christians. On the present occasion, the Miridits formed the advanced guard of Mustai 's army. They upheld the military glory of their race, and ridiculed the vanity of the Greeks, who attempted to filch from them the glory of Skanderbeg. The Greeks made no preparations to oppose Mustai. Mavrocordatos had quitted Mesolonghi. While he re- mained there, he concentrated in his own person the three ofl&ces of President of Greece, Governor-General of the Western Provinces, and Commander-in-Chief of the Etolian army; but when he departed he left three persons to execute the duties of commander-in-chief. This absurd arrangement would doubtless have created anarchy had it not already existed, and it tended to increase the disorders that already prevailed. Almost every chief, both in Etolia and Acamania, engaged in quarrels with his neighbours. Sometimes they fought in order to decide who should march to encounter Mustai 's army, and the prize of victory was liberty to stay at home and plunder the peasantry. In most cases their proceedings were an inexplicable enigma ; and their most intelligent countrymen could only tell strangers, what indeed was very evident without their communication, that the conduct of the captains and primates was mining the people. The advance of Mustai's army was signalised by one of the most brilUant exploits of the war. The first division of the Othoman force consisted of four thousand men, Catholics and Mussulmans, under the command of Djelaleddin Bey. It encamped in the valley of Karpenisi, near an abundant fountain of pure water, which forms a brook as it flows from its basin, shaded by a fine old willow-tree. At midnight on the 21st of August 1823 the orthodox Tosks surprised the camp of the Catholic and Mussulman Guegs. Marco Botzares, at the head of three hundred and fifty Suliots, broke into the midst of their enemies and rushed forward to slay the bey. The Othoman troops, roused from sleep, fled with precipitation, leaving their arms behind. Had the Greek captains descended with the armatoli of Etolia and Acarnania from the villages in which they were idly watching the flashes of the Suliot arms, they might have annihilated the Turkish force. But Greek envy sacrificed the Albanian hero. The bey of Ochrida had pitched his tent in a mandra or walled enclosure, built to protect beehives or young lambs from badgers and foxes. Botzares reached this wall, and, not finding the entrance, raised his head to look over it, in order to discover a means of entering it with his followers. The alarm had now roused Djelaleddin^s veterans, who were familiar with nocturnal surprises. Several were on the watch when the head of Botzares rose above the wall, and showed itself marked on the grey sky ; a ball immediately pierced his brain, and the Suliots took up his body.The affair at Karpenisi is one of the examples of the secondary part which the rival dominant races of Othomans and Greeks often bore in the war of the Greek Kevolution. The Othomans who accompanied the army of Mustai were still in the plain of Thessaly. The Greeks were encamped idly on the hills. The battle was fought between the Catholic Guegs and the orthodox Tosks. The troops of Djelaleddin remained in possession of the field of battle, and buried their dead on the spot. Two English travellers who passed the place during the following summer saw a number of small wooden crosses fixed over tlie graves of the Miridits.*George Finlay*A History of Greece from the Roman Conquest to the Present Time  https://archive.org/stream/historygr...lgoog_djvu.txt

----------


## King Bardhyl

> YOU ARE NOT ONLY FUNNY, 
> 
> LETS SEE WHAT KOLOKOTRONIS WROTE ABOUT HIMSHELF
> *
> 'Εις τον καιρόν του Μπότσικα εμβήκαν οι Τούρκοι εις Μοριά. Οι Χρυσοβιτσιώται, Λιμποβιτσιώται και οι Αρκουροδεματίται επήγαν και επολέμησαν εις του Ντάρα τον Πύργο 6000 Τούρκους. Αυτοί εχαλάσθησαν και εγλύτωσεν ο Μπότσικας. Αυτός είχε ένα παιδί, Γιάννη, και ένας Αρβανίτης είπε: "βρε, τι Μπιθεκούρας είναι αυτός!". Δηλαδή, πόσον ο κώλος του είναι σαν κοτρώνι, κι έτσι του έμεινε το όνομα Κολοκοτρώνης. Ο Μπότσικας εσκοτώθη, ο Γιάννης εκρεμάσθη εις την Ανδρούσαν. Ώστε από τα 1553, όπου εφάνηκαν εις τα μέρη μας οι Τούρκοι, ποτέ τους δε τους αναγνώρισαν, αλλ΄ ήσαν εις αιώνιον πόλεμον.* '
> 
> where it is saying he was Albanian?


First, try to translate in english.
Second, in one of my posts i made you an question where he wrote his memories, before entering in prison ore after? Before they kill him, poison him and imprison people closest, his wartime comrades, all arvaniti hero, or after?

----------


## Yetos

> First, try to translate in english.
> Second, in one of my posts i made you an question where he wrote his memories, before entering in prison ore after? Before they kill him, poison him and imprison people closest, his wartime comrades, all arvaniti hero, or after?


http://ellistoria.blogspot.gr/2010/0...post_8689.html

his memories

Ο πατέρας μου σκοτώθηκε με δυο του αδέλφια, Αποστόλη και Γεώργη, ο ένας εις τον λόγγον, ο άλλος μοναχός του, διατί ελαβώθηκε. Εγλύτωσαν ένας μπάρμπας μου, Αναγνώστης, από τους κλεισμένους τέσσαρους αδελφούς Κολοκοτρώνη. Εγώ, η μάννα μου, η αδελφή μου εγλύτωσαν με τα παληκάρια του πατέρα μου.

his family names

----------


## King Bardhyl

> http://ellistoria.blogspot.gr/2010/0...post_8689.html
> 
> his memories
> 
> Ο πατέρας μου σκοτώθηκε με δυο του αδέλφια, Αποστόλη και Γεώργη, ο ένας εις τον λόγγον, ο άλλος μοναχός του, διατί ελαβώθηκε. Εγλύτωσαν ένας μπάρμπας μου, Αναγνώστης, από τους κλεισμένους τέσσαρους αδελφούς Κολοκοτρώνη. Εγώ, η μάννα μου, η αδελφή μου εγλύτωσαν με τα παληκάρια του πατέρα μου.
> 
> his family names


What is this?

----------


## King Bardhyl

I can understand your problem but i can not help. I posted a long list by various authors, and you post an amator blogger, in greek so? I posted an documentary made by an important greek television, and you post humor greek movie. This are your references?
I invite, sorry contrary, i challenge other greek members to discuss with me. You can not hold this discussion, i am sorry.

----------


## Yetos

> Sometimes my friend you have to use some references. I will made this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay is accepted by all as a serious scholar, let`s see what he had writen:
> 
> Mustfai Pasha assembled his army at Ochrida. It consisted of five thousand Mohammedan Guegs, and three thousand Catholic Miridits. These Catholics, who speak the Guegh dialect of the Albanian lan- guage, boast of their descent from the Christians who fought against the Turks under their national hero Skanderbeg, or George Castriot. But their hatred of the orthodox Greeks has long since bound them in a closer alliance with the Mussulman tribes in their neighbourhood, than with any body of Christians. On the present occasion, the Miridits formed the advanced guard of Mustai 's army. They upheld the military glory of their race, and ridiculed the vanity of the Greeks, who attempted to filch from them the glory of Skanderbeg. The Greeks made no preparations to oppose Mustai. Mavrocordatos had quitted Mesolonghi. While he re- mained there, he concentrated in his own person the three ofl&ces of President of Greece, Governor-General of the Western Provinces, and Commander-in-Chief of the Etolian army; but when he departed he left three persons to execute the duties of commander-in-chief. This absurd arrangement would doubtless have created anarchy had it not already existed, and it tended to increase the disorders that already prevailed. Almost every chief, both in Etolia and Acamania, engaged in quarrels with his neighbours. Sometimes they fought in order to decide who should march to encounter Mustai 's army, and the prize of victory was liberty to stay at home and plunder the peasantry. In most cases their proceedings were an inexplicable enigma ; and their most intelligent countrymen could only tell strangers, what indeed was very evident without their communication, that the conduct of the captains and primates was mining the people. The advance of Mustai's army was signalised by one of the most brilUant exploits of the war. The first division of the Othoman force consisted of four thousand men, Catholics and Mussulmans, under the command of Djelaleddin Bey. It encamped in the valley of Karpenisi, near an abundant fountain of pure water, which forms a brook as it flows from its basin, shaded by a fine old willow-tree. At midnight on the 21st of August 1823 the orthodox Tosks surprised the camp of the Catholic and Mussulman Guegs. Marco Botzares, at the head of three hundred and fifty Suliots, broke into the midst of their enemies and rushed forward to slay the bey. The Othoman troops, roused from sleep, fled with precipitation, leaving their arms behind. Had the Greek captains descended with the armatoli of Etolia and Acarnania from the villages in which they were idly watching the flashes of the Suliot arms, they might have annihilated the Turkish force. But Greek envy sacrificed the Albanian hero. The bey of Ochrida had pitched his tent in a mandra or walled enclosure, built to protect beehives or young lambs from badgers and foxes. Botzares reached this wall, and, not finding the entrance, raised his head to look over it, in order to discover a means of entering it with his followers. The alarm had now roused Djelaleddin^s veterans, who were familiar with nocturnal surprises. Several were on the watch when the head of Botzares rose above the wall, and showed itself marked on the grey sky ; a ball immediately pierced his brain, and the Suliots took up his body.The affair at Karpenisi is one of the examples of the secondary part which the rival dominant races of Othomans and Greeks often bore in the war of the Greek Kevolution. The Othomans who accompanied the army of Mustai were still in the plain of Thessaly. *The Greeks were encamped idly on the hills. The battle was fought between the Catholic Guegs and the orthodox Tosks.* The troops of Djelaleddin remained in possession of the field of battle, and buried their dead on the spot. Two English travellers who passed the place during the following summer saw a number of small wooden crosses fixed over tlie graves of the Miridits.*George Finlay*A History of Greece from the Roman Conquest to the Present Time  https://archive.org/stream/historygr...lgoog_djvu.txt



Do you make any sence?

First you tell us no Greeks,
second you tell us it was Greek revolt was Albanian civil war,
now lat you tell us about Finlay,
what I see here?
*Finley say the Greeks?* *WOWOWOWOWOW*
how come to believe you,
you make kolokotronis which is a Greek word an Albanian, although in his memories say other,

Lets see what else you have to say?

----------


## King Bardhyl

Curios the greek humor movie is with subs in Portugese language??????
Come on.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Do you make any sence?
> 
> First you tell us no Greeks,
> second you tell us it was Greek revolt was Albanian civil war,
> now lat you tell us about Finlay,
> what I see here?
> *Finley say the Greeks?*
> how come to believe you,
> you make kolokotronis which is a Greek word an Albanian, an Arbanitan, although in his memories say other,
> ...


My friend, you entertains me with these efforts that makes. Do you want to discuss with me about the using of name Greek, and greek language during the history? No problem. But you have to understand that modern greeks and ancient greeks are two things totally different .

----------


## Yetos

> Curios the greek humor movie is with subs in Portugese language??????
> Come on.


yup it describes the 1820-1840 times mostly,
sory I can not find it in Albanian,

but describes all the components of what we say modern greece,
strangely they all could understand each other, but nobody the scholar who spoke ancient and very 'special'

----------


## King Bardhyl

You learned something from a conversation with me? Are you now more near the truth? I am here and i will continue to help you in this difficult road towards the truth. It is not necessary to thank me.

----------


## Yetos

> My friend, you entertains me with these efforts that makes. Do you want to discuss with me about the using of name Greek, and greek language during the history? No problem. But you have to understand that modern greeks and ancient greeks are two things totally different .


Now you are about to make day again,

ok lets see finley says that Greek existed correct?
how come you say they did not? by a kidhistory joking writer?
Did anyone denied that Arvanites of Athen Theba came at 1200 after an invitation of Duchy of Athens latin Crusader ruler? 
did anyone denied that Arbanites took part in Greek revolt, and were trained in Ioannina-Argyrokastron war?
did anyone denied that Bythoulkas was the joke name that Arbanites gave to Kolokotronis?
ok lets go more,
greek revolution,
HOW MANY YEARS PREPARATION? Filiki Etairia
How many Starts and tests from Orlov's revolt????? 
HOW MANY REVOLTS TOGETHER? same day? and how many in Balkans and in minor Asia?
and since you will to search more,
how many Makedonians went south to support the Peloponese war after the defeat in Makedonia?
and something good for you?
why Karaiskakis used the Arbanites of Athens as messenger and Turks trusted them?

Tell me something more,
in Messologgi μεσσολογγι who was in and who out?

and Finnaly
*WHY ALABANIAN HERO IS KASTRIOTI AND NOT VALLAVAN PASHA?*

*PS*
how much time you were prepaired to say all that, *which by your own posts is denied?*
told you you are a small degree in propaganda, and indeed a bad one, your superiors must change you and find a better one,

----------


## Yetos

> You learned something from a conversation with me? Are you now more near the truth? I am here and i will continue to help you in this difficult road towards the truth. It is not necessary to thank me.


wow 
*I am impressed*

*I have never seen someone to post and his next post deny what he said before.

I wonder what this shows?

HAVE YOU FINISHED?
OR YOU HAVE MORE POST TO DENY YOUR PREVIOUS?

PS 
why you don't answer my questions?

*

----------


## Sile

> You learned something from a conversation with me? Are you now more near the truth? I am here and i will continue to help you in this difficult road towards the truth. It is not necessary to thank me.


Are you trying to say that the albanians replaced the ancient greeks in greece and that is why there is a difference between ancient greeks and modern greeks?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Are you trying to say that the albanians replaced the ancient greeks in greece and that is why there is a difference between ancient greeks and modern greeks?



"..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581

"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn..."

Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that
in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)

"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "

[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]

But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)

----------


## King Bardhyl

Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?

----------


## Yetos

> Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?


it depends,

tell me something,
do you believe A Kolla is good linguist?

----------


## Yetos

> Are you trying to say that the albanians replaced the ancient greeks in greece and that is why there is a difference between ancient greeks and modern greeks?


plz don't tell about geneticals and PC* etc etc
the man is a bomber who even his posts deny what he says.
and never answers my questions.
as a trained propagandist, who just spread the lie and leave,

he believes that he gave me a lesson,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> "..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581
> 
> "…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
> Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
> devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
> made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
> it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
> own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
> there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
> ...


Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?

----------


## Yetos

> Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?


*ok lets say NO*

But you posted Finley before 




> King Bardhyl[/B];437482]Sometimes my friend you have to use some references. I will made this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay is accepted by all as a serious scholar, let`s see what he had writen:
> 
> Mustfai Pasha assembled his army at Ochrida. It consisted of five thousand Mohammedan Guegs, and three thousand Catholic Miridits. These Catholics, who speak the Guegh dialect of the Albanian lan- guage, boast of their descent from the Christians who fought against the Turks under their national hero Skanderbeg, or George Castriot. But their hatred of the orthodox Greeks has long since bound them in a closer alliance with the Mussulman tribes in their neighbourhood, than with any body of Christians. On the present occasion, the Miridits formed the advanced guard of Mustai 's army. They upheld the military glory of their race, and ridiculed the vanity of the Greeks, who attempted to filch from them the glory of Skanderbeg. The Greeks made no preparations to oppose Mustai. Mavrocordatos had quitted Mesolonghi. While he re- mained there, he concentrated in his own person the three ofl&ces of President of Greece, Governor-General of the Western Provinces, and Commander-in-Chief of the Etolian army; but when he departed he left three persons to execute the duties of commander-in-chief. This absurd arrangement would doubtless have created anarchy had it not already existed, and it tended to increase the disorders that already prevailed. Almost every chief, both in Etolia and Acamania, engaged in quarrels with his neighbours. Sometimes they fought in order to decide who should march to encounter Mustai 's army, and the prize of victory was liberty to stay at home and plunder the peasantry. In most cases their proceedings were an inexplicable enigma ; and their most intelligent countrymen could only tell strangers, what indeed was very evident without their communication, that the conduct of the captains and primates was mining the people. The advance of Mustai's army was signalised by one of the most brilUant exploits of the war. The first division of the Othoman force consisted of four thousand men, Catholics and Mussulmans, under the command of Djelaleddin Bey. It encamped in the valley of Karpenisi, near an abundant fountain of pure water, which forms a brook as it flows from its basin, shaded by a fine old willow-tree. At midnight on the 21st of August 1823 the orthodox Tosks surprised the camp of the Catholic and Mussulman Guegs. Marco Botzares, at the head of three hundred and fifty Suliots, broke into the midst of their enemies and rushed forward to slay the bey. The Othoman troops, roused from sleep, fled with precipitation, leaving their arms behind. Had the Greek captains descended with the armatoli of Etolia and Acarnania from the villages in which they were idly watching the flashes of the Suliot arms, they might have annihilated the Turkish force. But Greek envy sacrificed the Albanian hero. The bey of Ochrida had pitched his tent in a mandra or walled enclosure, built to protect beehives or young lambs from badgers and foxes. Botzares reached this wall, and, not finding the entrance, raised his head to look over it, in order to discover a means of entering it with his followers. The alarm had now roused Djelaleddin^s veterans, who were familiar with nocturnal surprises. Several were on the watch when the head of Botzares rose above the wall, and showed itself marked on the grey sky ; a ball immediately pierced his brain, and the Suliots took up his body.The affair at Karpenisi is one of the examples of the secondary part which the rival dominant races of Othomans and Greeks often bore in the war of the Greek Kevolution. The Othomans who accompanied the army of Mustai were still in the plain of Thessaly.*The Greeks were encamped idly on the hills.* The battle was fought between the Catholic Guegs and the orthodox Tosks. The troops of Djelaleddin remained in possession of the field of battle, and buried their dead on the spot. Two English travellers who passed the place during the following summer saw a number of small wooden crosses fixed over tlie graves of the Miridits.*George Finlay*A History of Greece from the Roman Conquest to the Present Time  https://archive.org/stream/historygr...lgoog_djvu.txt



*then who were these guys?*
Serbs?, Bulgarians? Romanians? Egyptians? Prsians? Italians?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *ok lets say NO*
> 
> But you posted Finley before 
> 
> 
> 
> *then who were these guys?*
> Serbs?, Bulgarians? Romanians? Egyptians? Prsians? Italians?


New York Times - June 2009 Nikos Dimou “.....We
used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans,
but then
Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants
of Plato and
Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has
such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never
recover".

----------


## Yetos

> new york times - june 2009 nikos dimou “.....we
> used to speak albanian and call ourselves romans,
> but then
> winckelmann, goethe, victor hugo, delacroix, they all told us,‘no, you are hellenes, direct descendants
> of plato and
> socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has
> such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never
> recover".


*is that an answer for a great historian of your height?*

*to this question?







 Originally Posted by King Bardhyl


Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?


ok lets say NO

But you posted Finley before 






 Originally Posted by [B

King Bardhyl


*


> ;437482]Sometimes my friend you have to use some references. I will made this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay is accepted by all as a serious scholar, let`s see what he had writen:
> 
> Mustfai Pasha assembled his army at Ochrida. It consisted of five thousand Mohammedan Guegs, and three thousand Catholic Miridits. These Catholics, who speak the Guegh dialect of the Albanian lan- guage, boast of their descent from the Christians who fought against the Turks under their national hero Skanderbeg, or George Castriot. But their hatred of the orthodox Greeks has long since bound them in a closer alliance with the Mussulman tribes in their neighbourhood, than with any body of Christians. On the present occasion, the Miridits formed the advanced guard of Mustai 's army. They upheld the military glory of their race, and ridiculed the vanity of the Greeks, who attempted to filch from them the glory of Skanderbeg. The Greeks made no preparations to oppose Mustai. Mavrocordatos had quitted Mesolonghi. While he re- mained there, he concentrated in his own person the three ofl&ces of President of Greece, Governor-General of the Western Provinces, and Commander-in-Chief of the Etolian army; but when he departed he left three persons to execute the duties of commander-in-chief. This absurd arrangement would doubtless have created anarchy had it not already existed, and it tended to increase the disorders that already prevailed. Almost every chief, both in Etolia and Acamania, engaged in quarrels with his neighbours. Sometimes they fought in order to decide who should march to encounter Mustai 's army, and the prize of victory was liberty to stay at home and plunder the peasantry. In most cases their proceedings were an inexplicable enigma ; and their most intelligent countrymen could only tell strangers, what indeed was very evident without their communication, that the conduct of the captains and primates was mining the people. The advance of Mustai's army was signalised by one of the most brilUant exploits of the war. The first division of the Othoman force consisted of four thousand men, Catholics and Mussulmans, under the command of Djelaleddin Bey. It encamped in the valley of Karpenisi, near an abundant fountain of pure water, which forms a brook as it flows from its basin, shaded by a fine old willow-tree. At midnight on the 21st of August 1823 the orthodox Tosks surprised the camp of the Catholic and Mussulman Guegs. Marco Botzares, at the head of three hundred and fifty Suliots, broke into the midst of their enemies and rushed forward to slay the bey. The Othoman troops, roused from sleep, fled with precipitation, leaving their arms behind. Had the Greek captains descended with the armatoli of Etolia and Acarnania from the villages in which they were idly watching the flashes of the Suliot arms, they might have annihilated the Turkish force. But Greek envy sacrificed the Albanian hero. The bey of Ochrida had pitched his tent in a mandra or walled enclosure, built to protect beehives or young lambs from badgers and foxes. Botzares reached this wall, and, not finding the entrance, raised his head to look over it, in order to discover a means of entering it with his followers. The alarm had now roused Djelaleddin^s veterans, who were familiar with nocturnal surprises. Several were on the watch when the head of Botzares rose above the wall, and showed itself marked on the grey sky ; a ball immediately pierced his brain, and the Suliots took up his body.The affair at Karpenisi is one of the examples of the secondary part which the rival dominant races of Othomans and Greeks often bore in the war of the Greek Kevolution. The Othomans who accompanied the army of Mustai were still in the plain of Thessaly.*The Greeks were encamped idly on the hills.* The battle was fought between the Catholic Guegs and the orthodox Tosks. The troops of Djelaleddin remained in possession of the field of battle, and buried their dead on the spot. Two English travellers who passed the place during the following summer saw a number of small wooden crosses fixed over tlie graves of the Miridits.*George Finlay*A History of Greece from the Roman Conquest to the Present Time  https://archive.org/stream/historygr...lgoog_djvu.txt


*then who were these guys?*
Serbs?, Bulgarians? Romanians? Egyptians? Prsians? Italians?
[/B]


*
AGAIN YOU AVOID TO ANSWER WHY?*

it was you posted Finley, why you do not answer?

are you telling us that I don't know how much, lets say 1 000 000 Albanians lived in South Greece, NO GREEK LIVED THERE!!!!! to speak Greek 
They revolt against Ottomans, and they were so stupid that named them shelves Hellenes and !!!!!
change their language??? 
I wonder what else you are about to tell us.

*DO YOU UNTERSTAND WHAT YOUR STATEMENT SAY AND MEAN?*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *is that an answer for a great historian of your height?*
> 
> *to this question?
> 
> **
> 
> ok lets say NO
> 
> But you posted Finley before 
> ...




*"Hellenes do not exist in Europe anymore. The universal creations of their spirit and a few ruins remained are the proofs of once upon a time the Hellenes existed. Because there is not even a single drop of pure hellenic blood flowing through the veins of christian population of today's Greece." (Austrian, Tirol, Historian Jakob Philip Fallmerayer, Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea I, Stuttgart-1830)

BTW, can you translate the video about Karaiskaqi? 
*

----------


## King Bardhyl

Even the tsar of Russia and russian people and the tsar of serbia, and serbian people in some sources are called "greeks". Can we consider them greeks?

----------


## King Bardhyl

And of copurse an philhellene can help us:
Most Greeks did not share Byron’s views and would not have understood his allusions. *They did not think of themselves as Greeks at all – and certainly not as Hellenes*…but as Christians or Orthodox. (N. Hammond, Greece – Old and New)

----------


## Yetos

> *"Hellenes do not exist in Europe anymore. The universal creations of their spirit and a few ruins remained are the proofs of once upon a time the Hellenes existed. Because there is not even a single drop of pure hellenic blood flowing through the veins of christian population of today's Greece." (Austrian, Tirol, Historian Jakob Philip Fallmerayer, Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea I, Stuttgart-1830)
> 
> BTW, can you translate the video about Karaiskaqi? 
> *


*YOU STILL DO NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION,
YOU SAY THIS,*




> The so-called Greek Revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
> benefited from this situation. Greece and Serbia are an experiment made by the Great Powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of Serbia was the Pashiallik of Belgrade, in the case of Greece, there was neither the state nor the Greek nation. This experiment continue still today with FYROM, and maybe are trying to make the same with Kosova. But with Kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.



*SO YOU ARE TELLING US NOW THAT ALBANIANS WERE SO STUPID,
THAT HAD A CIVIL WAR NAMED GREEK REVOLT,
THEY ESTABLISH A STATE NAMED HELLAS not GREECE
AND THEY ALL CHANGE THEIR LANGUAGE TO MODERN GREEK. JUST FOR FUN? I wonder
AND NO GREEK EXISTED THERE at 1821?

CORRECT?*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *is that an answer for a great historian of your height?*
> 
> *to this question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok lets say NO
> 
> ...


If you want Finlay let`s continue with Finlay:
https://archive.org/stream/historygr...e/n44/mode/2up
GREEK GOVERNMENT IN 1824.
The government which vanquished the faction of 
Kolokotrones was formed by a coalition of three par- 
ties : the Albanian shipowners of Hydra and Spetzas ; 
the Greek primates of the Morea ; and the Romeliot 
captains of armatoli. The chief authority was con- 
ceded to the Albanian shipowners ; George Konduriottes 
of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses 
of Spetzas, vice-president. It is necessary to record 
the sad truth, that two more ignorant and incapable 
persons were never intrusted with the direction of a 
nation's affairs. The Greeks are the most prejudiced 
of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity 
of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education 
with more favour; yet with all this nationality and 
pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period 
of great difficulty, to two men who could not address 
them in the Greek language, and whose intellectual 
deficiencies prevented them from expressing their 
thoughts with clearness even in the corrupt Tosk 
dialect which they habitually used. The descendants 
of Pericles and Demosthenes submitted tamely to 
these aliens in civilisation and race, because they were 
orthodox and wealthy.

----------


## King Bardhyl

to two men who could not address them in the Greek language.....?
And who are the Greeks? And where are?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *YOU STILL DO NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION,
> YOU SAY THIS,*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *SO YOU ARE TELLING US NOW THAT ALBANIANS WERE SO STUPID,
> THAT HAD A CIVIL WAR NAMED GREEK REVOLT,
> THEY ESTABLISH A STATE NAMED HELLAS not GREECE
> ...


I am not going to repeat my post. Were the Great Powers the lord of situation , they did not intend to do an Albanian state.The problem was that they found none Greeks.

----------


## Yetos

> I am not going to repeat my post. Were the Great Powers the lord of situation , they did not intend to do an Albanian state.The problem was that they found none Greeks.



AHAHAHAHA

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PRIDE?

*They fought hunderends thousands Ottomans, Egyptians of Imbrahim, TURK-ALBANIANS, they were slained, massacred, just to make the big powers will, and to change language and ethnicity*???????

*AHAHAHAHA* 

*you an ALBANIAN just made Albanians and Arbanites look silly*

----------


## Yetos

> if you want finlay let`s continue with finlay:
> https://archive.org/stream/historygr...e/n44/mode/2up
> greek government in 1824.
> The government which vanquished the faction of 
> kolokotrones was formed by a coalition of three par- 
> ties : The albanian shipowners of hydra and spetzas ; 
> *the greek primates of the morea* ; and the romeliot 
> captains of armatoli. The chief authority was con- 
> ceded to the albanian shipowners ; george konduriottes 
> ...


*thank you,
you just answer your shelf about your posts*





> the so-called greek revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
> benefited from this situation. Greece and serbia are an experiment made by the great powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of serbia was the pashiallik of belgrade, in the case of greece, there was neither the state nor the greek nation. This experiment continue still today with fyrom, and maybe are trying to make the same with kosova. But with kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.



*i love you man,
i do not even need to search something,
you deny your shelf how many times?*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> AHAHAHAHA
> 
> WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PRIDE?
> 
> *They fought hunderends thousands Ottomans, Egyptians of Imbrahim, they were slained, massacred to make the big powers will, and to change language and ethnicity*???????
> 
> *AHAHAHAHA*


Who create Filiki Eteria, can you tell me?

----------


## Yetos

*you an ALBANIAN just made Albanians and Arbanites look silly*

----------


## King Bardhyl

_"Lie - Foreign powers supported Greece because they loved Greeks.
Truth - They stepped into the war after they took the guarantee that independent Greek state will serve to their interests. Thats why Greece made a profit out of the sharing and agreements made after Balkan wars between 1910-1922. Even Thessaloniki which was %40 Jewish, %25 Turkish and only %20 was Greek was given to Greece."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*_

"Lie - Greek nation won its independence after an uprising against Ottoman empire.
Truth - The uprising was instantly suppressed. In 1827, France, England and Russia stepped into the war because they thought an independent Greek state will serve to their interests."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> _"Lie - Foreign powers supported Greece because they loved Greeks.
> Truth - They stepped into the war after they took the guarantee that independent Greek state will serve to their interests. Thats why Greece made a profit out of the sharing and agreements made after Balkan wars between 1910-1922. Even Thessaloniki which was %40 Jewish, %25 Turkish and only %20 was Greek was given to Greece."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*_
> 
> "Lie - Greek nation won its independence after an uprising against Ottoman empire.
> Truth - The uprising was instantly suppressed. In 1827, France, England and Russia stepped into the war because they thought an independent Greek state will serve to their interests."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*


_and only %20 was Greek
_This 20% are you sure are Greek? That`s the question. We can call conventionally this people greeks, chinese, what you want but they are not greeks.

----------


## King Bardhyl

…Philhellehism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and the by the *illusion of finding in the present mongrel inhabitants of Morea and Attica the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Subsequent contact of Greece with Europe has already considerably modified these ideas*, as the modern Greek begins to pass for what he is: a semi-barbarian, a not yet cultivated citizen, and already a spoilt savage……*Our classical recollections will have been proved a fallacy*…only because they inhiabit a soil where the Parthenon was built. (Baron Augustus Jochmus, The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire) 

Until 1821, Greeks knew that there had once been a Christian empire with its capital at Constantinople, *but they did not think of it as a Greek empire*, and they certainly didn’t call it the Byzantine Empire. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms) 

It is *certainly unlikely that before the infiltration of European Philhellenism the inhabitants of Kastri knew (or cared much*, for that matter) that they were indeed the inhabitants of Delphi. (Stathis Gourgouris, Dream Nation) 

It is significant that many of the nineteenth-century *alterations to the Acropolis were carried out at the instigation of Germans, whose contribution to the modern Greeks’ sense of their classical heritage was crucial*………….. an attempt was made to Hellenize the Greek collective consciousness, and through katharevousa, to “purify” the modern Greek language. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms) 

University of Athens - This, was *the first institution of higher learning in the independent kingdom of the Hellenes, was founded by King Otto on the German model*. (John Koliopoulos, Greece – The Modern Sequel) 

*The new sate did not attach itself to the immediate past, as it had been preserved in the popular memory, but rather adapted itself to the convenient image of the ancient Greek past already created in the West*. Otto’s father, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, was obsessed with ancient Greece and brought up his children with the aspiration that one day one of them would reign over this glorious land. (Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe, Texts and Commentaries) 

*In 1834 it was decided to create Athens the capital of the independent Kingdom of Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to plan the wide streets, the squares, the boulevards*: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of five thousand inhabitants, has become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand people. (H. V. Morton, In the steps of St. Paul) 

Ancient Sparta has entirely perished….*New Sparta is a creation of King Otho, who has formed the useless project of resuscitating all the great names of Greece.* It is a governmental and commercial town, composed entirely of shops, barracks, and public offices. (Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day) 

Make sens or not?

New York Times - June 2009 Nikos Dimou “.....We
used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans,
but then
Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us,‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants
of Plato and
Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has
such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never
recover".

----------


## King Bardhyl

What are the conditions that a group of people to create a nation?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> What are the conditions that a group of people to create a nation?


It`s an simple question, can you answer, pls?
Thank you.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> It`s an simple question, can you answer, pls?
> Thank you.






It seems that you are unable to give a single answer to all this day. In the presence of company it is not how one sees himself or herself it is how others see them that counts.

*"When a Greek's identity is in question, they can never accept the facts as they are. The Greeks lack the capacity to comprehend reality. Every Greek has an exaggerated opinion about Greeks." (Lord Byron)*
An phillhelenes.

----------


## LeBrok

> Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?





> "..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581
> 
> "…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
> Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
> devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
> made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
> it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
> own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
> there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
> ...


Generally speaking most of Greek modern DNA have its roots in Neolithic first farmers who lived in what we call Greece and Balkans overall. There is some addition of Indo European genetic ancestry, which made first Greek culture at about 1,000 BC. There is also Slavic genetic component, mostly in Northern Greece. We know this thanks to recent genetic testing and analyses of DNA in context of populations and nations. Greek autosomal and Y DNA is firmly placed between Turkey/Anatolia and Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania. We know that closest genetic cousins of Greeks are people from Western Turkey, Macedonia (FYROM), Albania and South Italy. 

Moreover your supposition that Greeks were replaced by Albanians and Slavs is totally wrong. Although they were conquered many times, they've retained strong cultural identity, they still speak Greek, belong to Orthodox Church, and have local genetic continuity. If they were replaced by Slavs their genes would point to strong relationship with Belarus and Ukraine, and not to South Italy or Albania. Some historians might lie or skew facts with their agenda but genes don't lie. 
Unlike in most of Greece, Slavic influence was strongest in Northern Macedonia, that's why they speak Slavic and culturally identify themselves as Slavs. However when we compare FYROM autosomal DNA to the whole region, they plot and belong exactly in the region. From this we can assume that the number of Slavs who conquered the region was much smaller than number of natives. We can say that although linguistically Northern Macedonia changed a lot, but there is overwhelming genetic continuity with ancient Macedonians or Greeks, if you will. Their diet is close to Greeks, and similar music, ethnic cloths and many customs. 
If anything, we can see strong and undeniable ancient Greek continuity in language, music, food, ethnic cloths, and a genetic one.

Having said that, it would be not right to claim that they are exactly same as ancient Greeks. The religion is definitely different, they don't have slavery now, dress mostly modern, would have difficulty understanding ancient Greek spoken language, there is obvious "foreign" genetic component of recent migrations and modern emigration, and their standard of living is way up compared with ancient times, even in midst of current recession.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Generally speaking most of Greek modern DNA have its roots in Neolithic first farmers who lived in what we call Greece and Balkans overall. There is some addition of Indo European genetic ancestry, which made first Greek culture at about 1,000 BC. There is also Slavic genetic component, mostly in Northern Greece. We know this thanks to recent genetic testing and analyses of DNA in context of populations and nations. Greek autosomal and Y DNA is firmly placed between Turkey/Anatolia and Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania. We know that closest genetic cousins of Greeks are people from Western Turkey, Macedonia (FYROM), Albania and South Italy. 
> 
> Moreover your supposition that Greeks were replaced by Albanians and Slavs is totally wrong. Although they were conquered many times, they've retained strong cultural identity, they still speak Greek, belong to Orthodox Church, and have local genetic continuity. If they were replaced by Slavs their genes would point to strong relationship with Belarus and Ukraine, and not to South Italy or Albania. Some historians might lie or skew facts with their agenda but genes don't lie. 
> Unlike in most of Greece, Slavic influence was strongest in Northern Macedonia, that's why they speak Slavic and culturally identify themselves as Slavs. However when we compare FYROM autosomal DNA to the whole region, they plot and belong exactly in the region. From this we can assume that the number of Slavs who conquered the region was much smaller than number of natives. We can say that although linguistically Northern Macedonia changed a lot, but there is overwhelming genetic continuity with ancient Macedonians or Greeks, if you will. Their diet is close to Greeks, and similar music, ethnic cloths and many customs. 
> If anything, we can see strong and undeniable ancient Greek continuity in language, music, food, ethnic cloths, and a genetic one.
> 
> Having said that, it would be not right to claim that they are exactly same as ancient Greeks. The religion is definitely different, they don't have slavery now, dress mostly modern, would have difficulty understanding ancient Greek spoken language, there is obvious "foreign" genetic component of recent migrations and modern emigration, and their standard of living is way up compared with ancient times, even in midst of current recession.


Are you sure about all of this?First of all Greeks are people of diaspora like jews.Today prime minister is originary from Egypt. But i want to make you an question, do you know that during 1920-30, arrived in Greece people (1.500.000) asiatic people during the exchange of population with Turkey? Just you declare that you are orthodox and you are an Greek. Something like a social club not an nation.So i invite you to make again those analysis.

----------


## King Bardhyl

Do you have listen, example Karamanlidhes. Just christian turks. This is the criteria to be greek.

----------


## LeBrok

> Can we call the modern Greek descendants of ancient Greek?





> Are you sure about all of this?First of all Greeks are people of diaspora like jews.Today prime minister is originary from Egypt. But i want to make you an question, do you know that during 1920-30, arrived in Greece people (1.500.000) asiatic people during the exchange of population with Turkey? Just you declare that you are orthodox and you are an Greek. Something like a social club not an nation.So i invite you to make again those analysis.


 They were the descendants of Greeks who originated in Greece, therefore Genetically and culturally Greeks. Good you mentioned Jews, because Ashkenazi Jews genetically are most similar to other East Mediterranean people and not to Northern Europeans, although they've spent a long time living up North. Ashkenazi don't have more than 5% of North European genes on average. Diaspora stick together and doesn't mix with locals.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> They were the descendants of Greeks who originated in Greece, therefore Genetically and culturally Greeks. Good you mentioned Jews, because Ashkenazi Jews genetically are most similar to other East Mediterranean people and not to Northern Europeans, although they've spent a long time living up North. Ashkenazi don't have more than 5% of North European genes on average. Diaspora stick together and doesn't mix with locals.


 You say:
_Some historians might lie or skew facts with their agenda but genes don't lie._
Are you speaking about this historians:
"..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581

"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their
own. ... And even to this day [584 AD], they still encamp and dwell
there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety
and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn..."

Another source, the so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that
in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)

"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "

[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]

I don`t belive that these historians are part of modern nationalist agendas.
But i agree with you that are different scholars that are part of nationalist agenda, and here i include also genetic theories.

In theAlbanian, Greek and international academic circles, has debates related to the ancient Greeks Epirus Illyrians etc. My opinion is that this debate will continue maybe for more time, I think that the loss of the Library of Alexandria, was a greate loss for humanity, second i think are political reasons , it`s my opinion.

There is no known debate in academic circles between Albanians and Serbs. Only some pseudoscientists, politicians and Serbian blogger try to make a discussion.
They start saying, Albanians are coming from the Caucasian Albania. Later began discussing about the toponims.This are serbian toponims for this reason this land is a serbian land. Near my city is a region named Mallakastra, there are different vilages in that region , Hekal, Varribob,etc. There is a village named Belishova , a slav toponim. And what? The Epirus is albanian , greek or serbian?
Later they changed strategy, aleluja they find Eldorado, they say according to the last genetic analysis the serbian are the descendets of illirian. Same with the croatian , FYROM is another story , they think that are descendants of Alexander the Greate.What? But they are slavs. There is a process in history named ASSIMILATION.
For the first time in history we hear that the invader is identified with the conquered.
There are 350.000.000 EU or more spent by goverments of FYROM to convince us that they are descendants of Veliki Aleksandrovic son of Filipovski. This is madnes.
I am here to speak about history, and we can not turn history into a branch of genetics, if the genetics explains everything let tell to the people to study the theory of the population bottleneck , about Mitochondrial Eve and Adam , we are all from Africa let speak about baboon, chimpazes. All clear.No, this is not history.
For your curiosity in FYROM are 300.000 albanian christian orthodox, I am not speaking about musslim albanians.
I personally prefere to read ancient and medieval sources. They are not contaminated by nationalism. Of course i read even modern author.

Medieval authors tell us that:
_"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
Greece……”_

_"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there.”_
Two different sources. I'm inclined to believe them. The medieval authors and other serious sources tell us that Albanians departed from Epirus and occupied large territories of Greece, on the continent and in the islands. And after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...ous_%281359%29 for 600 years they were the dominant population of Greece.
Are we supposed to take into account the fact?
How many albanians were in greek territory in 1821? There are different datas, starting from 15% to 50% of entire of poulations in greek territory. I suggest to use logic. In this part of the world named Balcan society was and still continueto be built on clan basis. The most important person is the head of the clan.
With all my posts i gave you the possibility to understand that the liberation of Greece was made by albanians. 90% of greek heros are albanian , large part of them did not speak Greek, including the first President and vice-president of Greece.
All the president of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Hellenic_Republic were Albanian origin, and stated that they were proud of their origin.
So population of Greece in 1821 was a mixture of, albanians, vlachs, slavs, turkish, gipsy and romei christian population, who can you call if you want Greek.
In 1923 it was the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey.
Now the Asia Minore is the most bigest intersection in human history, center of two of the greatest empires. How can you tell me that those people are genetically pure? How can we call europian not greek : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides and other populations of Asia Minore just because are orthodox?
Ancient authors have said:
_“Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina....”_

I told you greeks like jews and Armenian are people of diaspora, Prime minister of Greece is originary from Egypt:
http://www.balkaninside.com/wp-conte...-on-SYRIZA.jpg
If i would not knew i will think that this person is Prime minister of Egypt.
I live you to make the conclusion and I hope that you will make some references.

----------


## Yetos

@lebrok

leave him,

the man is θερμοκεφαλος,
I will answer him when i can sit for few hours,

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> @lebrok
> 
> leave him,
> 
> the man is θερμοκεφαλος,
> I will answer him when i can sit for few hours,


No, please let him...
this man is Greek, actually that is the point of all these! 

-I have to sleep it is late for me, but when i wake up next morning "king Bardyll" will become Βάρδαλος and Σαλός and Βασιλεύς , all together> Σαλαβάρδαλος ( -the looney king Bardyll or the thessalian Bardyll ? -What is your preference?)

-καληνύχτα, φίλε/vela Bardyll and sweet dreams to all of us!

----------


## King Bardhyl

> No, please let him...
> this man is Greek, actually that is the point of all these! 
> 
> -I have to sleep it is late for me, but when i wake up next morning "king Bardyll" will become Βάρδαλος and Σαλός and Βασιλεύς , all together> Σαλαβάρδαλος ( -the looney king Bardyll or the thessalian Bardyll ? -What is your preference?)
> 
> -καληνύχτα, φίλε/vela Bardyll and sweet dreams to all of us!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4A8U0I7W_Y

----------


## LeBrok

> You say:
> _Some historians might lie or skew facts with their agenda but genes don't lie._
> Are you speaking about this historians:
> "..John of Amida also known as John of Ephesus records that in 581
> 
> "…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
> Greece……and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and
> devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and
> made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in
> ...


I believe these are their genuine observations, though very general and lacking details. From these few verses we have no idea how many Slavs and Avars came to Greece, how many Greeks died, was it only an invasion army or they came with families to settle? What baffles me is that from these general and sparse quotes you concluded that Greeks were totally replaced by Slavs, Avars and Albanians, and that ancient Greeks are gone forever. It is not true. From genetic studies we gather that modern Greeks are vastly descendents of ancient populations of East Mediterranean, the neolithic farmers. In future we will get more genetic resolution of ancient Greeks and we should be in position to say if population of a single city like Athens have genetic continuity with ancient Athenians.




> In theAlbanian, Greek and international academic circles, has debates related to the ancient Greeks Epirus Illyrians etc. My opinion is that this debate will continue maybe for more time, I think that the loss of the Library of Alexandria, was a greate loss for humanity,


 Indeed it was. 




> There is no known debate in academic circles between Albanians and Serbs. Only some pseudoscientists, politicians and Serbian blogger try to make a discussion.
> They start saying, Albanians are coming from the Caucasian Albania. Later began discussing about the toponims.This are serbian toponims for this reason this land is a serbian land. Near my city is a region named Mallakastra, there are different vilages in that region , Hekal, Varribob,etc. There is a village named Belishova , a slav toponim. And what? The Epirus is albanian , greek or serbian?


 I say lets keep the present borders intact. There is always possibility for referendum in the future in case of disagreement. The situation you described we can extrapolate for the whole Europe. Every piece of land belonged in past to someone else. Let's leave it the way it is, or we could start another war.




> Later they changed strategy, aleluja they find Eldorado, they say according to the last genetic analysis the serbian are the descendets of illirian. Same with the croatian


, It is true on some level. As I said before there is a genetic continuity of recent populations with ancient people of the region. If Illirians lived in area of Serbia, when Slavs came they mixed havily with locals, to the degree that Serbs are geneticaly closer to Albanians and Greeks than to Poles or Russians, the Northern Slavs. Having said that I'm not familiar with genetic analyses of ancient Illyrian individual, if actually one could be identified as one.





> FYROM is another story , they think that are descendants of Alexander the Greate.What? But they are slavs. There is a process in history named ASSIMILATION.
> For the first time in history we hear that the invader is identified with the conquered.


 The are only culturally slavs, and mostly from the language side. The rest of culture like food, music, costumes are continuation of ancient Macedonian culture, and similar to Greek Macedonians. Also genetically they are mostly descendents of Macedonians and only in minority from Slavs.

I think, you need to let these facts sink in. The most of population of Balkans are genetic continuation of ancient neolithic farmers, with only some elements of Indo European invaders, or later Slavs. Genetic base is very old local, meaning that all the invaders who came had little genetic impact on the region. They came in smaller groups, they conquered and later they mixed completely with locals. Population of Balkans were not replaced neither by Helens, or Slavs, or Turks. Instead one can see great cultural changes every thousand of years, but population stays the same in general. Greek Macedonians and Slavic Macedonians are genetically identical, almost. They both are descendants of Ancient Macedonians, they both have Slavic genetic influence. The only difference is that Greek Macedonians managed to keep their Greek language and Slavic Macedonians switched to Slavic.






> I personally prefere to read ancient and medieval sources. They are not contaminated by nationalism. Of course i read even modern author.


 The only problem I noticed is that you draw broad conclusions with very scant information.




> Medieval authors tell us that:
> _"…an accursed people, called Slavonians, overran the whole of
> Greece……”_


 Overrun doesn't mean replaced, does it? They were few of them, they didn't killed most of Greeks and they mixed with locals or left. Please, don't confuse conquer with population replacement anymore.

----------


## Yetos

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4A8U0I7W_Y


wasn't Karaiskaikis the one who palisade the Mousta-bei, the Braveheart of Turk-Albanians, and eliminate his army of 1300 turk-albans the ones called by kiutahi as the 'flower of Albania'
the vice general of Kiutahi Κιουταχης, 

wans't Karaiskakis the one who response to the Turk-Alban Mehmet-Pasha Skondra, when he sent a 'firman' by the high gate Υψηλη Πυλη (soultans door)

Mehmet Pasha Skondra:
'My army has also Christians, I am order by Sultan to calm down the nations, I do not want to drop blood, I don't, He who peace come with me, he who does not just wait my war' 5 days to response.

Karaiskakis answer the same day,
' you wrote and send me a 'ΜΠουγιουρντι' bugiourdi, my pasha I ask my d**ck and he respond not to obey, bent infront you, and if your place is against me, I will fight you


καραισκακη απομνημονευματα. δημητριος Ανιαν

besides Bithikotsis write crup.

*he was shot by turks when he vist the Cretans who were under his commnd,*

Στο οχυρωμα των Κρητων γινοταν αλλαγες πυροβολισμων ωστε να κρατητε η επαφη αναμεσα στους αντιπαλους

*among the 2 armies no shot was exchanged except the the defensive point of the Cretans which was in purpose to keep enemies in touch, as he was supervising there he was shot.*

*that is your answer about what was Greek revolt.*

*Why Cretans took place in a civil war that they do not care about?* *if it was a war among Albanians*.


I will give you more,
but i can't sit in a chair, more

plz answer the bellow, since you want to prove yourshelf that you know modern Greek history well. and do not want to prove your shelf as youtube watching and then bomb.

----------


## Yetos

@ King Bardylis

tell me how many revolts Greek did same day in march 1821?

since you know Greek history,

and tell me the 4 who manage to take HiGH GENERAL Degree.
1 ?
2 Kolokotronis
3 Karaiskakis
4 ?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> I believe these are their genuine observations, though very general and lacking details. From these few verses we have no idea how many Slavs and Avars came to Greece, how many Greeks died, was it only an invasion army or they came with families to settle? What baffles me is that from these general and sparse quotes you concluded that Greeks were totally replaced by Slavs, Avars and Albanians, and that ancient Greeks are gone forever. It is not true. From genetic studies we gather that modern Greeks are vastly descendents of ancient populations of East Mediterranean, the neolithic farmers. In future we will get more genetic resolution of ancient Greeks and we should be in position to say if population of a single city like Athens have genetic continuity with ancient Athenians.
> 
> Indeed it was. 
> 
> I say lets keep the present borders intact. There is always possibility for referendum in the future in case of disagreement. The situation you described we can extrapolate for the whole Europe. Every piece of land belonged in past to someone else. Let's leave it the way it is, or we could start another war.
> 
> , It is true on some level. As I said before there is a genetic continuity of recent populations with ancient people of the region. If Illirians lived in area of Serbia, when Slavs came they mixed havily with locals, to the degree that Serbs are geneticaly closer to Albanians and Greeks than to Poles or Russians, the Northern Slavs. Having said that I'm not familiar with genetic analyses of ancient Illyrian individual, if actually one could be identified as one.
> 
> 
> ...


 I find your posting on unfounded scientific arguments. You choose to answer selectively. Also you misuse my words and you take them out of context.
I'm new to this forum, but apparently I see that you don`t like references when you discuss and made conclusion.
You say:
_In future we will get more genetic resolution of ancient Greeks and we should be in position to say if population of a single city like Athens have genetic continuity with ancient Athenians._
While you wait for the analysis to be done in future, i'm continue with some facts that are known globally.
First.
Before talking to the arrival of the Barbarians and the Slavs we should also talk about this event: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian.
I don`t like wikipedia because the greek net-warriors use that for their nationalist agenda, but I am not losing my time, you can find a lot of references.
What happened then, the greeks had immunity from plague?

Second.
The so-called Chronicle of Monembasia, states that:

in the year 587—8 the Turkic Avars (with whom the Slavs were
usually allied)

"…..captured all of Thessaly and all of Greece, Old Epirus, Attica
and Euboea. Indeed, they attacked the Peloponnese and took it by war;
and after expelling and destroying the native Hellenic peoples, they
dwelt there. Those who were able to escape their murderous hands were
scattered here and there. Thus, the citizens of Patras moved to the
district of Reggio in Calabria, the Argives to the island called Orobe,
the Corinthians to the island of Aegina.... Only the eastern part of
the Peloponnese, from Corinth to Cape Maleas, was untouched by the
Slavonians because of the rough and inaccessible nature of the
country... "

[Cyril Mango, BYZANTIUM: THE EMPIRE OF NEW ROME]

I could go on to quote a large group of authors. Is`t necessary? Here no man prefers references, here are willing to speak what they learned in elementary school.

Third.
*1774
Johann Thunmann:
On the History and Language
of the Albanians and Vlachs* “I believe one can conclude from this not only that the Albanians were numerous in Thessaly at the time, but that they were much sought after for the army because of their bravery.
They were now very powerful in the Despotate. Cantacuzene had even appointed a number of Albanians as governors after taking that region over from Nicephorus. Guini de Spata received the region of Janina, and Musacchi Thopia the region of Arta. Spata soon declared his independence and took over the region governed by Thopia. The rule of John Angelus and later of the Serbs over the Despotate did not impede the progress of the Albanians. Since Simon, or Siniscian [Sinisha], the brother of King Stephen of Serbia, to whom the Despotate had been given after the death of his brother in 1356, was involved in a major war of succession with Urosh, Stephen’s son, the former Despot Nicephorus, son of John II, used the opportunity to retake the territories of his father. He first conquered Thessaly with no difficulty. The Albanians resisted more in the Despotate and would not accept him as their ruler. In order to overcome them more easily, he decided to marry a Serbian princess and repudiate his earlier wife, Cantacuzene’s daughter, whom he had put under arrest in Arta. But with the help of the Albanians and Acarnanians, she managed to flee to the Morea to her brother, the Despot Manuel. From this time on, the Albanians abandoned Nicephorus entirely and threatened to wage open war on him if he did not take back his repudiated wife. Nicephorus actually wanted to reach an agreement with his wife, but because he did not want to appear to have been pressured by the Albanians, he attacked the rebels, with the support of a group of Turks. He attacked his foes at a place called Achelous, but he fell there himself, and with him, his whole army was defeated. This took place in 1357.”
Source: [from: Johann Thunmann, _Über die Geschichte und Sprache der Albaner und der Wlachen_ (Leipzig 1774). Translated from the German by Robert Elsie.]
Read this:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vso...7#.U_2QiaP9mK8
Fourth.
After arrived the Othomans.
Even here i can stay for a long time but I will show an interesting element. Look what greek pupils learn in the school:
http://www.agiasofia.com/1821/fort1821/revolut.html
_The Greek Empire of Byzantium ended on Tuesday May 29, 1453 when its capital, Constantinople, fell to the Turks. This day is the black day in Greek history. By the end of the 15th century, Greece was under Turkish rule. Over the next 400 years, the Greeks were slaves to the Turks, deprived of their human rights, considered as second class citizens (rayas means beast in turkish language), worked and lived only for their rulers. Harems of Pashas were full of christian ._
The Turks were famous for a tactical combat, ETHNIC RAPE, the last who used this tactic were Serbs during the war in ex-Yugoslavia.
Turks mingle up the food in the pot of Greeks? Asia Minore was for 1.500 center of two great empires. An empire is not monoethnic, but multiethnic. 
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...colofPoros.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...lofPoros21.jpg
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...lofPoros25.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...ff/veremes.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...veremes245.png
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...veremes246.png
You say:
_I say lets keep the present borders intact. There is always possibility for referendum in the future in case of disagreement. The situation you described we can extrapolate for the whole Europe. Every piece of land belonged in past to someone else. Let's leave it the way it is, or we could start another war._
This sounds like pure nationalism and i'm not here for this, but if you want I can discuss for “_Every piece of land”._
While you wait analyzes responses, i want to make you an question:
What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
Thank you.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> @ King Bardylis
> 
> tell me how many revolts Greek did same day in march 1821?
> 
> since you know Greek history,
> 
> and tell me the 4 who manage to take HiGH GENERAL Degree.
> 1 ?
> 2 Kolokotronis
> ...


I will answer you when you give me proof that you are a serious man,and really wants to do a civilized debate.
Thank you.

----------


## Yetos

> I will answer you when you give me proof that you are a serious man,and really wants to do a civilized debate.
> Thank you.


tell me why you choose a name that can also srbian?

----------


## Yetos

> _"Lie - Foreign powers supported Greece because they loved Greeks.
> Truth - They stepped into the war after they took the guarantee that independent Greek state will serve to their interests. Thats why Greece made a profit out of the sharing and agreements made after Balkan wars between 1910-1922. Even Thessaloniki which was %40 Jewish, %25 Turkish and only %20 was Greek was given to Greece."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*_
> 
> "Lie - Greek nation won its independence after an uprising against Ottoman empire.
> Truth - The uprising was instantly suppressed. In 1827, France, England and Russia stepped into the war because they thought an independent Greek state will serve to their interests."_ *(Famous Greek Lies, To Vima)*



*Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha for the region of Macedonia (1906)*

*Muslims* (Turks and Albanians) 423,000 (41.71%) 
*Greeks* 259,000 (27.30%) 
*Bulgarians* 178,000 (18.81%) 
*Serbs* 13,150 (1.39%) 
*Others* 73,000 (7.72%) 

others is the jew,

*1) According to a Turkish census (official) of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:*
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

*2) According to a Turkish census (official) of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:*
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

other census
*Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)*
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

*Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)*
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

*Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)*
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020



*tell me do you see any Albanian?*

now the next is, was Thessaloniki Given or taken?

answer is yes by the Turks,

why?

Thessaloniki was cutted, Greek fleet entered thermaikos, and blocked the sea,

from west and South Greek army was aproaching 16 october liberated Katerini and pass Aliakmon but small forces, main forces fought the battle of Γιαννιτσα Yannitsa the sacred city of Bαγιαζιτ 19-20 octomber
from East and North Bulgarian army was aproaching , and they run fast reaching Thessaloniki 1 day after the Greeks, around night 27 octomber ready to bomb thessaloniki as Petrof was ordered.


SO it was desicion of Turkish officer Hassan Tahsin and major of the city Osman Sahit,

what the great powers wanted,
Austrohungarians and germans, support an indipendent state, their desicion was shown later upon the treaty and preposition of Sultan, which signed for a country named makedonia, that is also the biggest arque of Slav-makedonians.
Jew community promoted the idea of an indipendent city, like old Venice or Navvara,

ok enough with history,

*so you see by your eyes, your lie,
yes thessaloniki was given to Greeks by Turks, but the population is not as you say,
cause you post the population of Thessaloniki Αστυ (city) and not Thessaloniki area/municipal.
the correct numbers Thessaloniki 1904 city is 
40 000 jews 24 synagoges
50 000 Turks 24 Tzami/temen in the Turks also numbered Albanians
30 000 Greeks 48 churches monasteries
<1 000 Serbs no church meat merchants
Bulgarian in the city was limited mainly were in the countrysides


and I ask you

you said

*


> You learned something, Athens was just a albanian village, like Peleponesi, all Attiki, Islands,etc. 
> So back to the Real question :"Where are the greeks"?
> It was not question of different linguistic experiment made by greeks in 200 years of modern Greece. The nobels of court answered to their King :"There are no greeks, your citizens are albanians, faithfully to your monarchy . 
> It's brought to us by an greek author. 
> It's said that King Otto was furios with his staff, His words "Why i lose time learning greek, why you don't you told me to learn albanian"?
> About Kolokotronis he was an albanian,and in a moment when he saw all those peoples including himself, finished killed and imprisoned by the greek goverment and Phanarioti Loby he said :
> ....o skilos. ...o fanariotis. 
> ....this dog. ... the phanariotis. 
> Congratulation you are making significant progress.





> The so-called Greek Revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
> benefited from this situation. Greece and Serbia are an experiment made by the Great Powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of Serbia was the Pashiallik of Belgrade, in the case of Greece, there was neither the state nor the Greek nation. This experiment continue still today with FYROM, and maybe are trying to make the same with Kosova. But with Kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.


*


*AND I ASK YOU,*

SO FOR YOU GREEKS ARE ALBANIANS WHO CHANGE LANGUAGE DUE AN EXPIREMENT OF GREAT POWERS.
AND NOT ONLY AT 1821, AND IN OLD GREECE, BUT ALSO CHANGE LANGUAGE IN MAKEDONIA BEFORE LIBERATION of 1912?

*yo man get serious, you make yourshelf a joker, and your nation at least silly

I am still waiting for you to name the Revolts of Greeks at least only in march of 1821,
the names of the higher generals by Φιλλικη etc etc 

*


*

----------


## King Bardhyl

*Rigas the Vlach defines who is a “Greek”, 1797!*
9;3 RIGAS VELESTINLIS* THE NEW POLITICAL CONSTITU­TION OF THE INHABITANTS OF RUMELI, ASIA MINOR, THE ARCHIPELAGO. MOLDAVIA AND WALLACHIA <1797)
Concerning the Republic Article 1
The Greek Republic is one, for all that it contains within it different races and religions. It does not look on differences in worship with a hostile eye.

158 The Movement for Greek Independence 1770—1821
It is indivisible, for all that rivers and seas divide its provinces, which constitute a unitary, indissoluble body.

Concerning the Division of the People

Article 2
The Greek People, that is to say those people living in this Empire. without distinction of religion _oj_languagc, is divided into primary assemblies in the districts, to put into practice its sovereign authority. That is to say they assemble in every province, to give their opinion on any problem.

Article 3
It is divided, for administrative convenience and so that justice shall be done everywhere in like manner, into provinces, districts and subdistricts. That is to say Thessaly is called a province. Magnesia (that is to say the villages of Volos) a district and subdistrict: the administration of Makrynitsa over twelve villages is a subdistrict.
Concerning the Class of Citizens Article 4
Every man born and inhabiting this Empire, of the age of 21, is a citizen.
Every foreigner, truly aged twenty-one, who has lived in this Empire for a year and who lives by his labour, is a citizen.
He who buys landed property is a citizen.
He who marries a Greek woman is a citizen.
He who takes an adopted child is a citizen.
He who speaks colloquial Greek or the ancient tongue and helps Greece, even if he lives in the Antipodes (for the Greek leaven has spread to the two hemispheres) is a Greek and a citizen.
He who is a Christian and does not speak colloquial or ancient Greek, but only assists Greece, is a citizen.
And finally every foreigner whom the government considers to be a worthy inhabitant of the Motherland, that is to say as a good craftsman, a diligent teacher, a worthy soldier, is received in the Motherland and can share equally in the rights which all citizens share.

The Influence of the French Revolution 159
A foreign philosopher or European technician, who has left his homeland and has come to live in Greece, with the object of passing on his wisdom or craft, is not only considered as a genuine citizen, but at public expense a marble statue with the emblems of his teaching or his art i» to be erected, and the wisest Greek scribe is to write his life.

Source: "The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents" by Richard Clogg, 1976.
"Ab-sense
_him a foothold in Greek-speaking lands. The papers intercepted by the Austrian authorities were destined for Preveza, western Greece. An audience with the all-conquering Emperor would have instigated an uprising that would captivate the imagination of the French and European philhellenes and would have drawn them into a conflict that promised the liberation of the Hellenic spirit in its land of origin.*0 But this was not to be. Nevertheless. Rhigas *s impulse did make its way to Grace and helped to cultivate Greek revolutionary consciousness, eventually.4" Rhigas himself did not. Handed over to the Turks in Belgrade. Rhigas attempted suicide, failed, was tortured and killed. He consequently never did travel to Greece to implement the second part of his plan. Like many philhellenes and diaspora figures, Rhigas never did set foot in Greece, which was fitting for one whose image of the place bore many characteristics of a European discourse located and produced_ _outside_ _the Greek mainland."_

_Source: “MODERN GREECE A CULTURAL POETICS” Vangelis Calothycos._

*The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.*
_
4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
_
_6. Greeks are:
a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens._

I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.
When they do not even have a 200 year old history.
They are a modern fabrication of the thinkers and philhellenes of the day, which was materialized in absurdum when the "pure" Greek king from Bavaria, King Othon the Hellene started to rule his kingdom.
Which prior to his rule had never existed in history.

Greece is a modern myth.

----------


## King Bardhyl

And here we have the constitution of another theocratic country like Modern Greece:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constit...public_of_Iran

----------


## LeBrok

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437598]I find your posting on unfounded scientific arguments. You choose to answer selectively. Also you misuse my words and you take them out of context.
I'm new to this forum, but apparently I see that you don`t like references when you discuss and made conclusion.
You say:
I thought you were after the knowledge, and what I'm saying is a quintessence of genetic studies with plenty of references on Eupedia and around the net. Look here, browse through Y haplogroups, check how close the numbers are for Macedonia and Northern Greek. Almost identical, telling us that both had common origin. Difference between them is cultural, mostly linguistic, but overall they are cousins who speak other languages.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Look at this map of genetic distances:



Can you separate group of Slavs and show them to us? Of course not, being Slav is a cultural concept and not genetic heritage. Balkan Slavs belong to Balkan's genetic pool and are closer genetically to Albanians and Greeks than to other Slavs from North.

Did you come to the grip with a "new concept" that conquering doesn't mean population replacement?

----------


## Yetos

> *Rigas the Vlach defines who is a “Greek”, 1797!*
> 9;3 RIGAS VELESTINLIS* THE NEW POLITICAL CONSTITU­TION OF THE INHABITANTS OF RUMELI, ASIA MINOR, THE ARCHIPELAGO. MOLDAVIA AND WALLACHIA <1797)
> Concerning the Republic Article 1
> The Greek Republic is one, for all that it contains within it different races and religions. It does not look on differences in worship with a hostile eye.
> 
> 158 The Movement for Greek Independence 1770—1821
> It is indivisible, for all that rivers and seas divide its provinces, which constitute a unitary, indissoluble body.
> 
> Concerning the Division of the People
> ...


*THANK YOU* 

*I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED THE ARTICLE C AND D, 
I SEE ONLY A B E*

*and I ask you 
WHAT IS SO STRANGE OR DIFFERENT FROM OTHER EUROPEAN UNION OR USA CONSTITUTION?*

*I see a modern constitution that a modern state deserves,*
*Although the your translation suck since I do not believe say Aliens*
*the only problem is that Greece does recogn guys like me, the Pagans* but who does,
*at least we don't slay them while your Turkish religion genocide them as in IS*

for your information
to day in Greece live
about 300 000 Muslims
about 150 000 Catholics
about 90 000 Protestants
about 400 000 orthodox orthodox
the rest are Greek orthodox church 
*WHO's HEAD IS AN ARVANITAN Bishop NAMED ΙΕΡΟΝΥΜΟΣ*

*you see we do not make any difference among Greeks and Arvanites,* all equal,

and you speak about modern Greek constitution,
why not about England and Agglosaxonic church? just wonder?
maybe cause you hate us? I wonder why?
IF NO GREECE EXISTED NO ALBANIA WOULD EXIST,
YOU WOULD BE OTTOMAN EMPIRE UNTIL TODAY.
YOUR LIBERATION IS 90 YEARS AFTER GREEK LIBERATION AND AXIS POWERS HELPED ENOUGH,
YOU ARE A CREATION OF GERMANS AND AUSTRIANS YOUR HELPERS, LIKE US BRITAIN FRANCE AND RUSSIA,
SO STOP YOUR CRUP, IN YOUR DIPLOMATIC FIELD AND ALSO IN MILITARY YOU WERE HELPED BY GERMANS AUSTRIANS AND YESTERDAY BY NATO OFFCOURSE,


SOON I WILL WRITE AND ANSWER TO YOY ABOUT YOUR POST OF FALLMAYER, 
I AM AFTER A SURGERY.


BUT YOU STILL HAVEN"T ANSWER


*
and I ask you

you said

*  Originally Posted by *King Bardhyl*  
You learned something, Athens was just a albanian village, like Peleponesi, all Attiki, Islands,etc. 
So back to the Real question :"Where are the greeks"?
It was not question of different linguistic experiment made by greeks in 200 years of modern Greece. The nobels of court answered to their King :"There are no greeks, your citizens are albanians, faithfully to your monarchy . 
It's brought to us by an greek author. 
It's said that King Otto was furios with his staff, His words "Why i lose time learning greek, why you don't you told me to learn albanian"?
About Kolokotronis he was an albanian,and in a moment when he saw all those peoples including himself, finished killed and imprisoned by the greek goverment and Phanarioti Loby he said :
....o skilos. ...o fanariotis. 
....this dog. ... the phanariotis. 
Congratulation you are making significant progress.



 Originally Posted by *King Bardhyl*  
The so-called Greek Revolution was a civil war betwen albanians. I am not happy to say this but this is the truth. Other, more smart 
benefited from this situation. Greece and Serbia are an experiment made by the Great Powers for geopolitical reasons. But if in the case of Serbia was the Pashiallik of Belgrade, in the case of Greece, there was neither the state nor the Greek nation. This experiment continue still today with FYROM, and maybe are trying to make the same with Kosova. But with Kosova is difficult because the albanian are an distinct race, not an mix of populations. That`s the story.



*


*AND I ASK YOU,*

SO FOR YOU GREEKS ARE ALBANIANS WHO CHANGE LANGUAGE DUE AN EXPIREMENT OF GREAT POWERS.
AND NOT ONLY AT 1821, AND IN OLD GREECE, BUT ALSO CHANGE LANGUAGE IN MAKEDONIA BEFORE LIBERATION of 1912?

*yo man get serious, you make yourshelf a joker, and your nation at least silly

I am still waiting for you to name the Revolts of Greeks at least only in march of 1821,
the names of the higher generals by Φιλλικη etc etc 

*
BYE FOR THE MOMENT BARDYLIC
*

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=LeBrok;437615]


> I find your posting on unfounded scientific arguments. You choose to answer selectively. Also you misuse my words and you take them out of context.
> I'm new to this forum, but apparently I see that you don`t like references when you discuss and made conclusion.
> You say:
> I thought you were after the knowledge, and what I'm saying is a quintessence of genetic studies with plenty of references on Eupedia and around the net. Look here, browse through Y haplogroups, check how close the numbers are for Macedonia and Northern Greek. Almost identical, telling us that both had common origin. Difference between them is cultural, mostly linguistic, but overall they are cousins who speak other languages.
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
> 
> Look at this map of genetic distances:
> 
> 
> ...


Old beliefs die hard apparently, but the genetic data in this case are very clear.

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=LeBrok;437615]


> I find your posting on unfounded scientific arguments. You choose to answer selectively. Also you misuse my words and you take them out of context.
> I'm new to this forum, but apparently I see that you don`t like references when you discuss and made conclusion.
> You say:
> I thought you were after the knowledge, and what I'm saying is a quintessence of genetic studies with plenty of references on Eupedia and around the net. Look here, browse through Y haplogroups, check how close the numbers are for Macedonia and Northern Greek. Almost identical, telling us that both had common origin. Difference between them is cultural, mostly linguistic, but overall they are cousins who speak other languages.
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
> 
> Look at this map of genetic distances:
> 
> 
> ...


I told you that i don`t understand genetic, and i don`t belive in genetics new theory who want to make us again "romei".

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437625]


> I told you that i don`t understand genetic, and i don`t belive in genetics new theory who want to make us again "romei".



*YO WEST OSMAN*

*YOU STILL DID NOT ANSWER
*
you made so many posts,
i answer already some but you still answer none

----------


## sparkey

> Old beliefs die hard apparently, but the genetic data in this case are very clear.


Nah, it's still pretty muddy.  :Wary: 

Autosomal similarity often depends on what calibration is being used. The odd position of the Slovaks in that particular map is a good indication that the calibration of that one isn't going to produce completely reliable distances. If I instead take the EEF/WHG/ANE calibration (just cuz it's my favorite right now), and calculate distances between Croats/Albanians as well as Croats/Ukrainians, I find that Croats are 2.2 times closer to Ukrainians than to Albanians.

From what I've seen in most autosomal studies, the truth is usually somewhere between "no significant migration" and "total population replacement" for most historical migrations, and that seems to be the case with Balkan Slavs. It seems to vary a lot by which specific population we're talking about as well. But I think that there is enough autosomal distance, as well as significant Y-DNA evidence, that Slavs had significant impact in the Balkans, even though they didn't replace the existing population.

----------


## kamani

I've seen things on 23AndMe like: North/Kosovar-Albanians clustering with Southern Greeks and Southern Albanians clustering with Northern Greeks, which I can only explain with Indo-European expansion theories, since Southern Albanians have no East-Euro/Slavic component and Northern Albanians are the most indigenous people in the Balkans.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *THANK YOU* 
> 
> *I WONDER WHAT HAPPENED THE ARTICLE C AND D, 
> I SEE ONLY A B E*
> 
> *and I ask you 
> WHAT IS SO STRANGE OR DIFFERENT FROM OTHER EUROPEAN UNION OR USA CONSTITUTION?*
> 
> *I see a modern constitution that a modern state deserves,*
> ...


 *“at least we don't slay them while your Turkish religion genocide them as in IS”* *Aaaaa this is beautifull, tipically yours. Who told that i am musslim? About YOU read:* *1915
Mid’hat bey Frashëri:
The Epirus Question - the Martyrdom of a People* _What had taken place?_
_Zographos and his clique were watching. The coup in Korça, prepared by Greeks foreign to the region, was supported by the Greek bishop of the town, a fanatic sectarian and a true komitadji, as are all the other priests forced upon us by the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, real pests for the flocks they are supposed to guide. Following the defeat of the coup in Korça, the Greek Government took things over, convinced that the sword would be stronger than the cross. Three hundred fifty soldiers set out from Kastoria (a town situated south of Korça on the territory annexed by Greece) under the command of Greek officers, officers from the standing army of His Hellenic Majesty: Mavraza, Laza, Benapoli, Asterio, Ilia Papageorgiou. Add to these five officers a person of sinister appearance, a type of Quasimodo, Boussios, former Greek deputy in the Ottoman Parliament for Serfidje, and you will have the whole range of them. Before setting out on their march, these soldiers and officers received the blessing of the Greek Bishop of Kastoria. (5)_
_During the operations, the Greeks did not fail to commit atrocities. Villages were burned down, peaceful and innocent inhabitants, including women, had their throats cut or were burned alive, other villagers were taken by force to make believe there was an exodus of people fleeing from the Albanian Government, to empty the country and sow the seeds of misery. Among their crimes, mention may be made of the assassination of the Vlach priest, Papa Haralambi of Korça, whose throat was slit in cold blood, with those of his brother and cousin. This assassination of this dignitary caused great outrage._
What`s happened? Ordinary prisoners wearing the uniform of His Majesty blessed by _the Greek Bishop of Kastoria_ led by _a person of sinister appearance, a type of Quasimodo, Boussios, former Greek deputy in the Ottoman Parliament for Serfidje,_ cut the throat to an Orthodox priest? unbelievable but true. But let`s continue.
_These Epirotes (from Crete), the sacred legions (of Beelzebub), the Zographists (as they have recently been called) were tasked with pillaging the country and destroying anything they found, on the sacred orders of Zographos._
_Countless are the crimes and wrongdoings of the Zographist bands. All of southern Albania has been ravaged. The two beautiful provinces of Korça and Gjirokastra, including the districts of Bilisht, Kolonja, Leskovik, Përmet, Frashër, Skrapar, Opar, Tepelena and Kurvelesh have been devastated. As least 250 villages have been burned down, thousands of men, women and children have been massacred, and a hundred thousand people have been forced to flee their homes (most of them have now perished of starvation in Vlora)._
_In the_ _Times_ _of 10 May 1914, we find a Greek view of the crimes committed. Here even the Greeks recognise that “they burnt down villages on withdrawal and the rearguard, composed of Cretans, slaughtered everything so as to leave nothing to the Albanians.”_
_For whom was Greece, in the person of Zographos, demanding privileges? Who were the Greeks of Epirus? We have already stated, and can do so again here that “there is not a single Greek within the borders of Albania” as defined by the Powers at the conference in Florence. Those whom Greece called Greeks are none other than Albanian Orthodox Christians._
_And it was more than anyone else these Orthodox who were terrified of Greek actions and who protested most vociferously. They were fed up with being called_ _rum__ (i.e. Greeks) by the Turks who obstinately classified people by their religious affiliation without agreeing, or being able, to take into consideration their nationality and ethnic background. When these Orthodox heard about the talks between the International Control Commission and Zographos, Durrës was flooded with telegrams._
*The Visit of General De Veer to Kodra(village near Tepelena)*
_On 14 May, a few days after my arrival in Tepelena, I (De Veer) visited Kodra in the company of the physician, Dr. De Groot. The air in the village reeked of the bodies of cows and sheep, all in an advanced state of decomposition__._
_South of the village there is a little church which had doubtlessly been used as a jail. The walls and floor in it were tainted with blood. There were blood-drenched clothes and fezzes everywhere. The doctor pointed out the remains of human brains. A blood-stained rope was hanging from the ceiling where the altar had once been._
_The little wooden door of the church was riddled with holes, and the cartridges in front of the door made it clear to visitors how the holes got there. By removing a few tiles from above the door, one could see two oblong openings, both filled with cartridges._
_Behind the church there was a large pit and it was not difficult to recognise the shapes of human bodies under the thin layer of sand. Lower down, in front of the church, I saw a few bodies in a little pit._
_To the east of the village, there is a small house surrounded by trees. Near one of the trees, I could clearly see a pit of about 15 metres in length where the earth was drenched with blood, and under the tree there were still pools of blood. At a distance of 50 to 100 metres from this tree, we visited three large and one small pit. In one of the large pits, we saw the corpse of a headless woman._
_The bodies had been hastily buried. In order to prevent the spread of disease, Dr. De Groot ordered the bodies to be removed from one of the pits so that it could be dug deeper and the bodies reburied properly. A horde of gypsies began this dismal undertaking on 16 May._
_The same day, the commission visited Kodra. It inspected the two pits (a and b) that had been emptied. The one behind the church (a) contained 34 bodies, several of which with fractured skulls. Nineteen bodies were found in the second opened pit (b), several of which with fractured skulls._
_As the physician decided that it was not necessary to open the other pits since they were deep enough, the commission completed its work. One of the pits (c) had earlier been used to make cement. It was 4-5 metres deep. Being filled for the most part with human remains, it must have contained about 100 corpses._
_The other pits contain 34, 2, 19, 20 and 20 bodies respectively. A total of 195.
With this report, I have the honour of submitting to the Commission a list of names of the people presumably killed in Kodra (annexed to his report is a list of 217 names)._
_Tepelena, 19 May 1914_
_Lieutenant-General De Veer_
_Physician, Major F. De Groot_
_Captain De Iongh
_
_Lieutenant Melek Frashëri_ Site of the massacre of Kodra,
29 April 1914 (Photo: Carel De Iongh).




Source: [from: Lumo Skendo (Mid’hat bey Frashëri), _L’Affaire de l’Epire: le martyre d’un peuple_ (Sofia: L’Indépendance Albanaise, 1915). 48 pp. Translated from the French by Robert Elsie.]
Any difference between your _“sacred palikari”_ and ISIS terrorist? Both like to cut Christian throat. I told you your Asiatic side stay hidden in your subconscious. Questions of gene.

_"IF NO GREECE EXISTED NO ALBANIA WOULD EXIST,
YOU WOULD BE OTTOMAN EMPIRE UNTIL TODAY.
YOUR LIBERATION IS 90 YEARS AFTER GREEK LIBERATION AND AXIS POWERS HELPED ENOUGH,
YOU ARE A CREATION OF GERMANS AND AUSTRIANS YOUR HELPERS, LIKE US BRITAIN FRANCE AND RUSSIA,
SO STOP YOUR CRUP, IN YOUR DIPLOMATIC FIELD AND ALSO IN MILITARY YOU WERE HELPED BY GERMANS AUSTRIANS AND YESTERDAY BY NATO OFFCOURS"_


Albania gained independence 1912, with the help of AH empire not with german help. In 1914 startedthe WWI, and AH empire disintegrate but we are grateful to them. The treaty Titoni-Venizellos, wanted to cut in pieces Albania, but USA President *Woodrow Wilson* not allowed this to happened. It`s an curios story about this.
In 1999 USA with NATO intervened in Kosovo ending 200 years of _Albania__'s Golgotha._

_I AM AFTER A SURGERY._
I did not know this. I sincerely wish you speedy recovery and all the best.

Meanwhile please translate this video:
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thMH-JQ6gU8_
I'm trying to help you this is the entire text:
συνέντευξη 
Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης 
ΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ ΛΑΛΑΣ 

- Αφού είναι ωραία η ζωή, γιατί να τελειώνει; 
«Είναι νόμος, τελειώνει. Εγώ διαβάζω πολύ, πιστεύω ότι λίγοι άνθρωποι διαβάζουν όσο διαβάζω εγώ. Τώρα διαβάζω το ένθετο που έχουν τα "Νέα" για την ιστορία του αιώνα. Και λέει τι τράβηξε το κάθε κράτος, πόσες φορές έγιναν πόλεμοι, πόσοι πέρασαν απ' την Ελλάδα... Εγώ θα σου πω κάτι που δεν το ξέρεις ούτε εσύ ούτε κανείς. Πώς πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης; Και γιατί λέμε - θα το γράψεις έτσι όπως θα σ' το πω - γιατί λέμε "στ' αρχίδια μου"; Ο Καραϊσκάκης ήταν στρατηγός στον Περαία και ο Κουντουριώτης ήταν ναύαρχος. Τους άλλαξε λοιπόν ο Καποδίστριας μ' ένα στρατηγό που δε θυμάμαι τώρα τ' όνομά του και στη θέση του Κουντουριώτη έβαλε έναν άλλο ναύαρχο. Ο της ξηράς στρατηγός τού είπε του Καραϊσκάκη ότι μες στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στον Περαία είναι τρακόσιοι Aρβανίτες μουσουλμάνοι και θα πας εκεί έτσι κι αλλιώς κι αλλιώτικα. Ο Καραϊσκάκης τότε του είπε ότι "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου". Ο άλλος τσαντίστηκε επειδή τσαντίστηκε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Σου λέει, στρατηγός είμαι κι εγώ, θα μου πεις πώς να πάω στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στους Αρβανίτες που έχουν κλειστεί εκεί μέσα; Αφού Αρβανίτης ήταν κι ο Καραϊσκάκης. Οπότε ο στρατηγός ο άλλος έβαλε έναν Τούρκο και του 'ριξε μια σφαίρα στο αφτί και πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Το ξέρεις αυτό;».

----------


## Yetos

> I'm trying to help you this is the entire text:
> συνέντευξη 
> Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης 
> ΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ ΛΑΛΑΣ 
> 
> - Αφού είναι ωραία η ζωή, γιατί να τελειώνει; 
> «Είναι νόμος, τελειώνει. Εγώ διαβάζω πολύ, πιστεύω ότι λίγοι άνθρωποι διαβάζουν όσο διαβάζω εγώ. Τώρα διαβάζω το ένθετο που έχουν τα "Νέα" για την ιστορία του αιώνα. Και λέει τι τράβηξε το κάθε κράτος, πόσες φορές έγιναν πόλεμοι, πόσοι πέρασαν απ' την Ελλάδα... Εγώ θα σου πω κάτι που δεν το ξέρεις ούτε εσύ ούτε κανείς. Πώς πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης; Και γιατί λέμε - θα το γράψεις έτσι όπως θα σ' το πω - γιατί λέμε "στ' αρχίδια μου"; Ο Καραϊσκάκης ήταν στρατηγός στον Περαία και ο Κουντουριώτης ήταν ναύαρχος. Τους άλλαξε λοιπόν ο Καποδίστριας μ' ένα στρατηγό που δε θυμάμαι τώρα τ' όνομά του και στη θέση του Κουντουριώτη έβαλε έναν άλλο ναύαρχο. Ο της ξηράς στρατηγός τού είπε του Καραϊσκάκη ότι μες στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στον Περαία είναι τρακόσιοι Aρβανίτες μουσουλμάνοι και θα πας εκεί έτσι κι αλλιώς κι αλλιώτικα. Ο Καραϊσκάκης τότε του είπε ότι "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου". Ο άλλος τσαντίστηκε επειδή τσαντίστηκε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Σου λέει, στρατηγός είμαι κι εγώ, θα μου πεις πώς να πάω στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στους Αρβανίτες που έχουν κλειστεί εκεί μέσα; Αφού Αρβανίτης ήταν κι ο Καραϊσκάκης. Οπότε ο στρατηγός ο άλλος έβαλε έναν Τούρκο και του 'ριξε μια σφαίρα στο αφτί και πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Το ξέρεις αυτό;».


*
So you speak Greek

fantastic,* 

ok then
*
ΑΚΟΜΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΠΑΝΤΗΣΕΣ ΟΜΩΣ?
ΕΓΙΝΕ ΣΤΟ ΑΝΑΧΩΜΑ ΤΩΝ ΚΡΗΤΩΝ? "Η ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΑΛΛΟΥ?
*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *
> So you speak Greek
> 
> fantastic,* 
> 
> ok then
> *
> ΑΚΟΜΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΠΑΝΤΗΣΕΣ ΟΜΩΣ?
> ΕΓΙΝΕ ΣΤΟ ΑΝΑΧΩΜΑ ΤΩΝ ΚΡΗΤΩΝ? "Η ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΑΛΛΟΥ?
> *


Please use english and help us translating the text.
BTW can you translate in english the name Bithikotsis?

συνέντευξη 
Γρηγόρης Μπιθικώτσης 
ΘΑΝΑΣΗΣ ΛΑΛΑΣ 

- Αφού είναι ωραία η ζωή, γιατί να τελειώνει; 
«Είναι νόμος, τελειώνει. Εγώ διαβάζω πολύ, πιστεύω ότι λίγοι άνθρωποι διαβάζουν όσο διαβάζω εγώ. Τώρα διαβάζω το ένθετο που έχουν τα "Νέα" για την ιστορία του αιώνα. Και λέει τι τράβηξε το κάθε κράτος, πόσες φορές έγιναν πόλεμοι, πόσοι πέρασαν απ' την Ελλάδα... Εγώ θα σου πω κάτι που δεν το ξέρεις ούτε εσύ ούτε κανείς. Πώς πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης; Και γιατί λέμε - θα το γράψεις έτσι όπως θα σ' το πω - γιατί λέμε "στ' αρχίδια μου"; Ο Καραϊσκάκης ήταν στρατηγός στον Περαία και ο Κουντουριώτης ήταν ναύαρχος. Τους άλλαξε λοιπόν ο Καποδίστριας μ' ένα στρατηγό που δε θυμάμαι τώρα τ' όνομά του και στη θέση του Κουντουριώτη έβαλε έναν άλλο ναύαρχο. Ο της ξηράς στρατηγός τού είπε του Καραϊσκάκη ότι μες στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στον Περαία είναι τρακόσιοι Aρβανίτες μουσουλμάνοι και θα πας εκεί έτσι κι αλλιώς κι αλλιώτικα. Ο Καραϊσκάκης τότε του είπε ότι "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου". Ο άλλος τσαντίστηκε επειδή τσαντίστηκε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Σου λέει, στρατηγός είμαι κι εγώ, θα μου πεις πώς να πάω στον Αγιο Σπυρίδωνα στους Αρβανίτες που έχουν κλειστεί εκεί μέσα; Αφού Αρβανίτης ήταν κι ο Καραϊσκάκης. Οπότε ο στρατηγός ο άλλος έβαλε έναν Τούρκο και του 'ριξε μια σφαίρα στο αφτί και πέθανε ο Καραϊσκάκης. Το ξέρεις αυτό;».

----------


## Yetos

> please use english and help us translating the text.
> Btw can you translate in english the name bithikotsis?


*
pls answer my questions,*

*
ΑΚΟΜΑ ΔΕΝ ΑΠΑΝΤΗΣΕΣ ΟΜΩΣ?
ΕΓΙΝΕ ΣΤΟ ΑΝΑΧΩΜΑ ΤΩΝ ΚΡΗΤΩΝ? "Η ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ ΑΛΛΟΥ?

you know greek

*

----------


## LeBrok

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437625]


> I told you that i don`t understand genetic, and i don`t belive in genetics new theory who want to make us again "romei".


 This is precious! What kind of argument are you making? Just because you don't understand genetics, genetics is wrong or it doesn't count? It is what it is, it is true, and it proves your assumptions wrong, either you like or not, or either you understand it or not. Some people don't understand astronomy but regardless Earth still goes around Sun, although by naked eye Sun orbits the Earth.
Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.

Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?

Look at this map of genetic heritage. It shows level of genes inherited from Early European Farmers who settled Balkans 10 thousand years ago. Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and even Turkey shows level of 70-80%. We know that in Neolithic this level was reaching close to 100% in South Europe. 70% that's pretty high level of genetic continuity through 10 thousand years, don't you think?

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=LeBrok;437651]


> This is precious! What kind of argument are you making? Just because you don't understand genetics, genetics is wrong or it doesn't count? It is what it is, it is true, and it proves your assumptions wrong, either you like or not, or either you understand it or not. Some people don't understand astronomy but regardless Earth still goes around Sun, although by naked eye Sun orbits the Earth.
> Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.
> 
> Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?
> 
> Look at this map of genetic heritage. It shows level of genes inherited from Early European Farmers who settled Balkans 10 thousand years ago. Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and even Turkey shows level of 70-80%. We know that in Neolithic this level was reaching close to 100% in South Europe. 70% that's pretty high level of genetic continuity through 10 thousand years, don't you think?


 And this are the pelasgian right?
You say:
_"Can you separate group of Slavs and show them to us? Of course not, being Slav is a cultural concept and not genetic heritage. Balkan Slavs belong to Balkan's genetic pool and are closer genetically to Albanians and Greeks than to other Slavs from North._ "
I dont told that Illyrians,i.e. Albanians are replaced by South Slavs, they mixed in the today territory of ex-Yugoslavia, it`s an historical fact.
I am telling that according to historical fact ancient greeks are replaced by slavs and after the job was finished by albanians. And for this reason you can find similarity between this populations.you call cousins, we call them arvaniti people, using an expression of arberesh of Italy, Gjaku i humbur i Arberit, Lost blod of Arber.This is officaly position of the albanians scholars. Your genetic theories are close with albanian nationalist theories.

BTW, i made you an answer:What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
Thank you.

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437660]


> And this are the pelasgian right?
> You say:
> _"Can you separate group of Slavs and show them to us? Of course not, being Slav is a cultural concept and not genetic heritage. Balkan Slavs belong to Balkan's genetic pool and are closer genetically to Albanians and Greeks than to other Slavs from North._ "
> I dont told that Illyrians,i.e. Albanians are replaced by South Slavs, they mixed in the today territory of ex-Yugoslavia, it`s an historical fact.
> *I am telling that according to historical fact ancient greeks are replaced by slavs and after the job was finished by albanians.* And for this reason you can find similarity between this populations.you call cousins, we call them arvaniti people, using an expression of arberesh of Italy, Gjaku i humbur i Arberit, Lost blod of Arber.This is officaly position of the albanians scholars. Your genetic theories are close with albanian nationalist theories.
> 
> BTW, i made you an answer:What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
> Thank you.



*THIS MAN TELL NICE JOKES,*


he is Albanian, and he say to us, that this nation is so stupid, that they make a revolt, and change the language just for what? for an expirement of Great powers,
and not only this they also learn Greek in not free areas, like Makedonia with possibility they will liberate after 100 years.

*
YO BARDYLIC, YOU STILL ANSWER NO QUESTION,*

FOR YOUR INFORMATION I WILL POST AN AUTOSOMAL MAP NAMED *PC4* WHICH IS TRADE MARK OF GREEKS, GREEK COLONISATION, AND GENERALLY GREEK EXPANSION.



an old work, from 1996 based on blood and some kind of resist

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Yetos;437662]


> *THIS MAN TELL NICE JOKES,*
> 
> 
> he is Albanian, and he say to us, that this nation is so stupid, that they make a revolt, and change the language just for what? for an expirement of Great powers,
> and not only this they also learn Greek in not free areas, like Makedonia with possibility they will liberate after 100 years.
> 
> *
> YO BARDYLIC, YOU STILL ANSWER NO QUESTION,*
> 
> ...


DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF
this are your words, I do not have anything else to add.

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437663]


> DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF
> this are your words, I do not have anything else to add.


*I do not want you to respect me,
I want you to respect your self,* *and your people.
*
you give incomplete data,
you post data that deny your previous,
you make your people look like silly with what you post.
You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
and finally you don't answer.
also you deny genetics.

you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum.

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=LeBrok;437651]


> This is precious! What kind of argument are you making? Just because you don't understand genetics, genetics is wrong or it doesn't count? It is what it is, it is true, and it proves your assumptions wrong, either you like or not, or either you understand it or not. Some people don't understand astronomy but regardless Earth still goes around Sun, although by naked eye Sun orbits the Earth.
> Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.
> 
> Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?
> 
> Look at this map of genetic heritage. It shows level of genes inherited from Early European Farmers who settled Balkans 10 thousand years ago. Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and even Turkey shows level of 70-80%. We know that in Neolithic this level was reaching close to 100% in South Europe. 70% that's pretty high level of genetic continuity through 10 thousand years, don't you think?


 You say:
_Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history._
I have not any anti greek agenda. I accuse you that you the use maps for certain agenda.
About the South Slavs:
I told that the albanians are not replaced by the slavs. How these happened?
This document is let`s call an hitparade of the nation in year 1000-1018. Evrybody let find his nation:
*1000 - 1018
Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations* _What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century. It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers._
*It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles),* *Arbanasi** (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.*
Source: [Extract from: Radoslav Grujic: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: _Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva_, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: _Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries_, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3.]

Many people are missing in the text. Where are the FYR Macedonians, Serbs? They are your genetic maps.
Another document:

*1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage* _The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam)_ _(1)__. The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books)._
*On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered*  I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.
One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.
Source: [Extract from: _Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie_, Paris 1906, p. 478 485.]

The author speaks here for a territory under the rule of the King of Serbia. In this area cities are inhabited by Latins and the entire territory is inhabited by Albanians. About the city I can bring doccuments that prove that in the coastal cities had a certain amount Albanian inhabitants. All this inhabitants “_suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders”._
Given your geographical knowledge can you tell me the said territory in which is of modern states is located?
We know that Serbians Tsar have used all means to assimilate the Albanians:

*1909
Edith Durham:
In the Debatable Lands* _The celebrated Canon of Tsar Stefan Dushan throws light on the means employed to crush the conquered, when Great Servia was at its greatest. "Tsar Dushan, the Macedonian, Autocrat of Servia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, and other countries... Laws established by the grace of God in the year 1349 at a meeting of the Patriarchs, etc._
_Law 6. As to the Latin heresy, and those that draw true believers to its faith. The ecclesiastical authorities must strive to convert such to the true faith. If such a one will not be converted... he shall be punished by death. The Orthodox Tsar must eradicate all heresy from his state. The property of all such as refuse conversion shall be confiscated... Heretical priests of other communions who try to make proselytes will be sent to the mines or expelled from the country. Heretical churches will be consecrated and opened for priests of the Orthodox faith._
_Law 8. If a Latin priest be found trying to convert a Christian to the Latin faith he shall be punished by death._
_Law 10. If a heretic be found dwelling with Christians, he shall be marked on the face and expelled. Any sheltering him shall be treated the same way._"
_It appears also that certain pagan rites were still observed. Law 45 enacts that: "If there be heretics that burn the bodies of the dead, or dig them up for the purpose of burning them, the village where this takes place is to pay a fine, and the criminals be handed over to justice."_
_The fact that the whole 'village' is fined (just as the whole 'house' is excommunicated to-day, for the sin of concubinage with a sister-in-law), indicates that the whole village, if not wholly pagan, had pagan sympathies._
_But history shows that the Latins in the districts we are considering must have been mainly Albanians. Persecution was therefore not merely religious but racial. And that special legislation was needed against the Latins, and the express mention of what is to be done with their churches, tends to show that even in the strongest Servian days they were numerous enough to have to be reckoned with as a danger. The Serb strove to stamp out - or, shall we say, Slavise - the Albanian._
Source: [Edith Durham, _High Albania_ (London: Edward Arnold 1909, reprint London: Phoenix Press, 2000), p. 232-300.]
BTW for your curiosity there is an theory that Nemanjić dynasty were Albanian.
The WWI: 
*1913
Leo Freundlich:
Albania's Golgotha:
Indictment of the Exterminators of the Albanian People* _On the eastern banks of the Adriatic, a mere three days journey from Vienna, live an autochthonous people who for centuries have been fighting for their freedom and independence against enemies and oppressors of all types. This nation has clung steadfast to its roots through countless wars and the cataclysms of history. Neither the great migrations nor wars with the Serbs, the Turks and other invaders have hindered the Albanians from maintaining their nationality, their language, and the purity and originality of their customs._
_The history of this nation is an unbroken chain of bloody battles against violent oppressors, but not even the most unspeakable of atrocities have managed to annihilate this people. Intellectual life has flourished among the Albanians even though their oppressors endeavoured to cut off all cultural development at the root. This nation produced great generals and men of state for the Ottoman Empire. Albanians were among the best judges in Turkey and among the greatest authors of Turkish literature. Almost all the merchants of Montenegro were Albanian, as were many fine businessmen in the major cities of Romania. The Albanians played an important role in Italy, too. Crispi was one of them. Greece's bravest soldiers were of Albanian blood.
In the wake of the cataclysms wrought by the Balkan War, the ancient dream of freedom and independence for this people is now becoming a reality. The Great Powers of Europe have decided to grant Albania its national autonomy._
_But the Serbian thirst for conquest has now found a means of destroying the fair dream of this courageous and freedom-loving people before it can be realized. Serbian troops have invaded Albania with fire and sword. And if Albania cannot be conquered, then at least the Albanian people can be exterminated. This is the solution they propose._
_* * *_  _On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration 'To the Serbian People', proclaiming:_
_"The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too._
_By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future._
_In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality."_
_How have the Serbs understood the declaration of their monarch, which is not even half a year old?_
_The Serbs came to Albania not as liberators but as exterminators of the Albanian people. The Ambassadors' Conference in London proposed drawing the borders of Albania according to ethnic and religious statistics to be gathered on site by a commission. The Serbs have hastened to prepare the statistics for them with machine guns, rifles and bayonets. They have committed unspeakable atrocities. The shock and outrage produced by these crimes are outdone only by the sense of sorrow that such vile deeds could be committed in Europe, not far from the great centres of western culture, in this twentieth century. Our sorrow is made all the heavier by the fact that, despite the reports which have been cabled home for months now by the journalists of many nations, and despite the impassioned indictment launched to the world by Pierre Loti, nothing has been done to put an end to the killings._
_A courageous people full of character is being crucified before the eyes of the world and Europe, civilized Christian Europe, remains silent!_
_Tens of thousands of defenceless people are being massacred, women are being raped, old people and children strangled, hundreds of villages burnt to the ground, priests slaughtered._
_And Europe remains silent!_
*The Serbian Thirst for Blood*
_The special correspondent of the_ _Daily Telegraph__ reported the following: All the horrors of history have been outdone by the atrocious conduct of the troops of General Jankovic. On their march through Albania, the Serbs have treacherously slaughtered not only armed Albanians, but in their savagery even unarmed individuals - old people, women, children and babies at their mother's breasts._
_Drunk with victory, Serbian officers have proclaimed that the only way of pacifying Albania is to exterminate the Albanians. They slaughtered 3,000 people in the region between Kumanova / Kumanovo and Skopje alone. 5,000 Albanians were murdered by the Serbs in the Prishtina area. These people did not die with honour on the battlefield, but were slain in a series of gruesome raids. The Serbian soldiers have found new methods of butchery to satisfy their thirst for blood. Houses were set on fire in several villages and the inhabitants slaughtered like rats when they tried to flee the flames. The men were slain before the eyes of their wives and children. The wretched women were then forced to look on as their children were literally hacked to pieces._ 
_Executions were a daily entertainment for the Serbian soldiers. All inhabitants who had been found with weapons in their homes were executed. They were either shot or hanged. Up to thirty-six executions took place a day. How strange it is that the Serbian nationalists living in Hungary should complain about massacres in Albania. Mr Tomic, the former secretary to the Serbian Prime Minister Pašic, reported on his trip from Prizren to Peja / Pec that on both sides of the road he saw nothing but the remnants of burnt-out villages which had been razed to the ground._ 
_The roads were lined with gallows from which the bodies of Albanians were hanging. The road to Gjakova / Djakovica had become a Boulevard of Gibbets._ 
_The Belgrade newspapers reported quite without shame on the heineous atrocities of the Serbs. When Colonel Osbic's regiment took Prizren, he commanded his compatriots, "Kill!" When his order was heard, so the Belgrade papers report, "the Serbian soldiers stormed into homes and slaughtered every human being they could lay their hands on."_
_The_ _Daily Telegraph__ then gives the authentic statement of an Albanian notable: Anyone who denounces an Albanian to the Serbs can be sure that the Albanian will be executed. There were people who owed money to Moslem Albanians. They went and denounced them to the Serbs as traitors. The wretched Albanians were immediately hanged and the informers later found ways of acquiring the home and land of their victims for a ridiculously low price._
_In Skopje, unarmed Albanians were simply shot and killed by Serbian officers. If even a hunting knife was found in a home, its owner was executed._ 
_In Ferizaj / Uroševac, the Serbian commander invited Albanian fugitives to return to their home and surrender their weapons. When over four hundred of them did return, they were slaughtered. There were no more than a dozen Moslem families left alive in Ferizaj / Uroševac. The war correspondent of the_ _Messaggero__ has confirmed this report._
_In Pana, the Serbs killed their prisoners, in Varosh / Varoš and Prishtina the population was literally decimated. Serbian officers admitted themselves that they were on the 'hunt' for Albanians, and one of them boasted having killed nine Albanians in one day with his own hands._ 
_A doctor working for the Red Cross reported, according to the same source: The Serbs have been massacring throughout Albania with no sign of mercy. Neither women nor children nor old people have been spared. I have seen villages burning in Old Serbia every day. Near Kratovo, General Stefanovic had hundreds of prisoners lined up in two rows and machine gunned down. General Živkovic had 850 Albanian notables put to death in Senica because they had offered resistance._ 
_The_ _Albanische Korrespondenz__ reported from Trieste on 12 March: A letter from Kruja near Durrës (Durazzo) dated 27 February of this year was read out at the Albanian congress here. It read: All the buildings as well as the villas of Mashar Bey and Fuad Bey (n.b. who were taking part in the congress at the time) have been burnt to the ground. Ali Lam Osmani's brother was caught by the Serbs in Vinjoll near Kruja, buried to his thighs in the earth, and then shot. The letter concludes with the words: We shall never see one another again. Farewell until we meet in the other world!_

The article is very long but I want to show you an “curiosity”:
*The Serbs Are Also Murdering Christians*
_On 20 March, the_ _Reichspost__ published a letter from Albania, reading as follows:_
_The parish priest of the sanctuary of Cernagora or Setnica, Don Tommaso, was robbed by Serbian soldiers of all the funds belonging to the church. The soldiers drew their bayonets, forced him to open the safe and took out all the money belonging to the pilgrimage site._
_The parish priest of Gjakova / Djakovica was threatened with death. He was told, "Either you give up your links with the Austrian protectorate or we will roast your brains!" The courageous reaction of the priest blew the wind out of their sails, however._
_For three months now, the Serbs have been hindering the parish priest of Ferizaj / Uroševac in his freedom to exercise his office. They have been jailing anyone who talks to him or who goes to mass or confession. The same thing has happened to two priests from Prizren._
_All imaginable pressure has been exerted against the Catholics of Janjeva / Janjevo (four hundred families, almost all of whom are ethnic Slavs) to convert to the schismatic church._
_For hundreds of years now, about 8,000 Catholics, so-called Laramans or secret Catholics, have been living in this archdiocese. Because of Turkish persecution, they did not profess their faith openly. When the Serbs arrived, several hundred of these Laramans wanted to declare openly that they were Catholic. When a representative of the new government got word of this, they were ordered, "Either Moslem or Orthodox. Not Catholic!"_
_Near the sanctuary of Letnica is the village of Shashare (ninety families, all of them Catholic). Serbian soldiers took the village, assembled the men on a field and tied them up with ropes. They then looted the homes and brutally raped the women and girls._
_Countless Albanian Catholics have been murdered. In Ponoshec / Ponoševac, for instance, thirty men were slaughtered one day while they were going about their business in the village. Their only crime was to admit that they were Albanian Catholics._
_Near Zhur / Žur, entire families of innocent Catholic tribesmen who had come down to Prizren to purchase salt, oil, sugar etc. were treacherously murdered on their way. The same thing happened near Gjakova / Djakovica where a further seventy Catholics from the parish of Nikaj were slaughtered. The Catholics are persecuted, whereas the native Orthodox are left alone._
_In the vicinity of Dibër / Debar and Monastir / Bitola, as well as in Kosovo, many villages have now been burnt to the ground. The looting is unspeakable. It is sufficient to note that sheep are now being sold at a price of two francs each because nobody knows what to do with them all. So many have been stolen from the Albanians by the Serbs and Montenegrins._ 
_They are now trying to stop us from speaking Albanian. A number of schools teaching Albanian have already been closed down._
_The letter ends with the words, "May God have mercy upon us, and may Europe come and save us. Otherwise we are lost!"_
*Slaughtered Priests*
_On 20 March, the_ _Neue Freie Presse__ reported: On 7 March, the_ _soldateska__ joined fanatic Orthodox priests in and around Gjakova / Djakovica to forcefully convert the Catholic population to the Orthodox faith. About 300 persons, men, women and children, among whom Pater Angelus Palic, were bound with ropes and forced under threat of death to convert. An Orthodox priest pointed to the soldiers standing by with their rifles in hand and said, "Either you sign the declaration that you have converted to the one true faith or these soldiers of God will send your souls to hell."_
_All the prisoners then signed the forms prepared for them which contained a declaration of conversion to the Orthodox faith. Pater Angelus was the last. He was the only one of them who had the strength, in a calm and dignified manner, to refuse to give up his faith. Pater Angelus stood by his word, even when ordered three times to convert and even when entreated by the other forcefully converted Catholics. The result was one of the most appalling scenes imaginable in twentieth-century Europe._ 
_After a sign from the Orthodox priest, the soldiers fell upon the Franciscan, ripped off his tunic and began beating him with the butts of their rifles. Pater Angelus collapsed after several of his bones and ribs had been fractured. At this moment, the Orthodox priest stopped the soldiers and asked him if he was now willing to convert. Again he shook his head and said placidly, "No, I will not abandon my faith and break my oath." Pater Angelus was beaten with the rifle butts again until one of the soldiers plunged a bayonet through the priest's lungs and put an end to his suffering._
In today FYROM live according to wikipedia 2,022,547 -2002 census

*64.2% Macedonians*25.2% Albanians3.9% Turks2.7% Roma1.8% Serbs2.2% other / unspecified
Well 64.2% are 1.298.475 “Macedonian” of which 300.000 are Albanian Christian orthodox.
25% of population or 509.681 are Albanian musslim.
The Orthodox Albanians of FYROM have demanded that religious services are conducted in Albanian. Both churches are discussing this thing.
And to close a document and finished:
_The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a_ _barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded_ _in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by_ _the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exog-_ _amous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are_ _linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion._ *Source: Stevens Coon Carleton  The Races Of Europe page 591* Now do you understand why your maps show that South Slavs are similar with the Albanian.
Can we tell today that Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin are descendants of Illyrians, because slavs bloger have see your maps? Can we say the same about FYROM slavs that they are descendants of Alexander The Great? Because starting from your maps they are going to explain us that are, thousands of slavic words in to the texts of Homer.
*Albert Einstein was right.*
*For your curiosity do you know that King Zog of Albanian save the life to Albert Einstein?*
*In history* is a process that is called ASSIMILATION, don’t forget it and your maps don`t show us how this process has occurred. And don`t tell us that this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian.
Maybe the correct genetic maps can explain us some procces, but can not replace the HISTORY.
Thank You.

P.S.
I insist: What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?

----------


## King Bardhyl

_And don`t tell us that this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian._
Sorry for my english has an error correct is:





_this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian._

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Yetos;437667]


> *I do not want you to respect me,
> I want you to respect your self,* *and your people.
> *
> you give incomplete data,
> you post data that deny your previous,
> you make your people look like silly with what you post.
> You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
> and finally you don't answer.
> also you deny genetics.
> ...



_1-I do not want you to respect me_




I am an educated man


2-_I want you to respect your self, and your people._
About you read what you say about the citizens of your country:
04-04-12, 13:08 post: #60 page 3 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...nians%29/page3

3-_you give incomplete data,_
All my data are complete, and never i used albanian sources, don`t forget we have very good scholars, using a term from football, i am playing at your stadium.

4-_you post data that deny your previous,_Opposite, confirm.
_5-you make your people look like silly with what you post_.




I am an PROUD ALBANIAN.
6-_You know Greek but you pretend you don't._
I can understand a little greek and english. I apologizing to the readers for my language mistakes.
7-_and finally you don't answer._
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
8-_also you deny genetics._
Fk of genetics. I am speaking about history.
9-_you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum._ 
I am trying to make an dialog but you are an uneducated man.
A council: Try to have much more respect for your SHELF.

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437673]


> _1-I do not want you to respect me_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am an educated man
> 
> 
> 2-_I want you to respect your self, and your people._
> ...


*
ΑΔΙΟΡΘΩΤΟΣ*

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Yetos;437674]


> *
> ΑΔΙΟΡΘΩΤΟΣ*


I really don`t understand what you are saying, but i can answer:
"αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου"

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=King Bardhyl;437676]


> I really don`t understand what you are saying, but i can answer:
> "αυτό που μου λες το γράφω στ' αρχίδια μου"


HAHAHAHA
WELL YOU DO UNDERSTAND VERY WELL TURK.

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Yetos;437680]


> HAHAHAHA
> WELL YOU DO UNDERSTAND VERY WELL TURK.





You tell turk to me? Interesting:


*H.RES.522 -- Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. (Introduced in House - IH)* HRES 522 IH 
109th CONGRESS 1st Session *H. RES. 522* Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. 
*IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES* *October 27, 2005* Mr. ROHRABACHER (for himself and Mr. LANTOS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations 
   *RESOLUTION* Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. 
Whereas 600 years ago, in 1405 AD, in the White Castle of Kruja (formerly Croya), Albania, Gjergj Castrioti was born; 
Whereas at the age of 17 his father reluctantly left him with the Ottoman Turkish Sultan as a condition of peace; 
Whereas Castrioti excelled in studying history and classical languages and at an early age reached the rank of General in the Ottoman Turkish Army; 
Whereas Castrioti's military genius and unique leadership qualities were praised by Sultan Murad, who called him Iskander Bey (now Scanderbeg), after Alexander the Great; 
Whereas while being away from his native Albanian lands, Castrioti never forgot his Albanian heritage and people; 
Whereas on October 28, 1443, after much soul-searching and in utmost secrecy, Castrioti finally decided to return home and liberate the Albanian people from Ottoman domination; 
Whereas the Battle of Nish on November 10, 1443, between Ottoman troops and the Hungarian Army (led by another freedom-fighter, Janos Hunyadi), gave Scanderbeg the perfect opportunity to accomplish his plan of return; 
Whereas on November 28, 1443, Scanderbeg returned to his native town of Kruja and raised again his flag with the double-headed eagle over the White Castle there, to the enthusiastic celebration of his people, an historical moment vividly described by the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his lengthy epic poem, `Scanderbeg'; 
Whereas Scanderbeg thereafter successfully defended the Albanian people against countless attacks by the Ottoman Empire, the largest army of the period, including in 1450 the onslaught of more than 150,000 Ottoman troops led by Sultan Murad, who was ultimately defeated by vastly outnumbered Albanian foot soldiers and cavalry led by Scanderbeg at the Castle of Kruja in a bloody Homeric struggle; 
Whereas Murad's son, Sultan Mehmed, conquered Constantinople in 1453, thus ending the Byzantine period, but was unable in 1466 and 1467 to conquer Albania, even though he commanded the largest army of the time, including up to 300,000 foot soldiers and horsemen; 
Whereas during 1460 and 1461 Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg brought his army to southern Italy for the second time to defend his ally, King Alphonse of Naples, against the invasion of the Lombards of southern France; 
Whereas Gjergj Castrioti united the Albanian people and established a free state of Albania, which endured for 25 years; 
Whereas according to Major General James Wolfe, commander of the British army at Quebec, `Scanderbeg . . . excels all officers, ancient and modern, in the conduct of a small defensive army . . ..'; and, according to noted British historian Edward Gibbon, `the enthusiasm of chivalry and religion has ranked the Albanian prince with the names of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus'; 
Whereas Scanderbeg died at the town of Lyssus (now Lezha), Albania, on January 17, 1468, and Albanians resisted Ottoman occupation for another 20 years, after which the Ottomans overran Albania, forcing tens of thousands of Albanians to flee across the Adriatic Sea to the Kingdom of Naples for asylum, where their progeny still live today; 
Whereas the nation of Albania under Scanderbeg prevented the invasion of Rome and all of Italy by the Ottoman Empire, thus effectively paving the way for the Italian Renaissance; 
Whereas statues of Scanderbeg mounted on his stallion with sword in hand today grace the capitals of Italy, Austria, Hungary, Albania, and Kosova; 
Whereas Albania, including Kosova, became free again on November 28, 1912, after 425 years of Turkish Ottoman occupation, and today modern Albania and Turkey are both staunch allies of the United States of America; and 
Whereas the Republic of Albania today is resolute in joining NATO and the European Union as promptly as possible: Now, therefore, be it 
_Resolved_, That the House of Representatives--
(1) commemorates the achievements of Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg and the 600th anniversary of his birth;
(2) commends Albanians everywhere for paying tribute to and honoring their valiant leader, hero, and son, Gjergj Castrioti; and
(3) urges the United States Government to work with its European partners to accelerate the integration of Albania and a free Kosova into the European Union, in recognition of the great contribution and sacrifice made by Gjergj Castrioti and the Albanian people in saving Western Europe from Ottoman domination.

I want to make some questions:




Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (_dikanikion_) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok.

----------


## Maleth

[QUOTE=LeBrok;437651]


> Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?


So very true. However lets be fair, it needs to work the other way round too. They should be brothers in arms (human arms I mean ) and I should get a hug too.....seems like some ancient grandparent was conceived there too :)

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Maleth;437729]


> So very true. However lets be fair, it needs to work the other way round too. They should be brothers in arms (human arms I mean ) and I should get a hug too.....seems like some ancient grandparent was conceived there too :)


We are here to discuss about history not to make war. The friendship between albanians and greeks is the most oldest in the human history , until 1913.

----------


## Yetos

> We are here to discuss about history not to make war. The friendship between albanians and greeks is the most oldest in the human history , until 1913.




*Wrong, 
IN Dyrachium spoke 4 language, Greek Albanian Slavic Italo/Aromanian at the times of Kastrioti.
What they speak now?*
*
The Greek Albanian Friendship ended at the times of Crocodilos Kladas.
After that only attack we accept from you.
after that days your Friend is Turkey.






 Originally Posted by King Bardhyl


You tell turk to me? Interesting:


.
you came to genocide us, and struggle the Greek revolt just to show how Turks you are.*

*you are the sons of Vallavan pasha an obeyer of Turks a Προσκυνημενος , and the Bektashi Turks which send away when forbid that Heresy.*

PS 
even at 191,3 here where I live, the Ottoman garrison was mostly Turk-Alban soldiers, who had their own tekke and went to Turkish schooll.


PS2
SONS OF VALLAVAN PASHA, WHO STILL 'HONOUR' KASTRIOTI!!! BUT FOLLOW VALLAVAN

well you pised me off Turk,

the next I will open my books again to answer you Historically, since Genetic science is not good enough for you,

Don't cry then. cause already members of the forum know who you are, and what you are doing here.

----------


## King Bardhyl

[QUOdidn'tinanswer tordhyl;437728]


> You tell turk to me? Interesting:
> 
> 
> *H.RES.522 -- Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. (Introduced in House - IH)* HRES 522 IH 
> 109th CONGRESS 1st Session *H. RES. 522* Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. 
> *IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES* *October 27, 2005*
> 
> Mr. ROHRABACHER (for himself and Mr. LANTOS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations 
>    *RESOLUTION* Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. 
> ...


You did not answer to my questions. Sometimes try to use references and tell us the sources, or it is an secret?
P.S. Can you tell me this story about this Krokodil?

----------


## King Bardhyl

Who told you that I am mussulman ? About you what is your surname Tukuroglou, Hatxhinicholau?
BTW, i respect all religion. Try to make an normal discussion . If you dont hold the discussion , stop posting.

----------


## Yetos

> [QUOdidn'tinanswer tordhyl;437728]
> 
> You did not answer to my questions. Sometimes try to use references and tell us the sources, or it is an secret?
> P.S. Can you tell me this story about this Krokodil?



When you answr my questions I will answer yours

----------


## Yetos

> Who told you that I am mussulman ? About you what is your surname Tukuroglou, Hatxhinicholau?
> BTW, i respect all religion. Try to make an normal discussion . If you dont hold the discussion , stop posting.


No you don't, 
you use a mask, a profile,

you write and post, you never answer, 

yes you are, you are a Turk Alban,
like the Musta-bey, remember him? the one who join Qiutahi pasha and threatened all Greeks and Arbanites, to obey him.

what your Turk-Alban, the braveheart of Albania told us in 1821,
In my army army also exist Christins, (meaning prefer me I rule upon christians and muslims, not Qiutahi cause he has only Muslim Turk) so kneal before me or I smash you Down revolters, who dare revolt Ottoman empire.

*You still did νοτ andswer me,
In dyrrachium spoke 4 languages at times of Kastrioti Greek Albanian Italian/Aromani Slavic
how many spoken today?*



you are not civilized, you never answer, just bomb the place.
no you are educated, by your own posts you deny your shelf.

*you enter forum just to attack me,* why?
*From Post #64 you personal attacking me, 
with what? Fallmayer? wow with crup, like the ones Kolla write.
in fact if I use Kolla's work and name you will have no place to hide,
cause readers here know and understand what kind of name is Kolla and origin
as well for example
Dera θυρα Porta means as origins of language
*
*answer me where are the rest of Suliotes today? are they in Albania? 
answer me where the rest of Kastrioti family? are they in Albania?*

is it true that in Dyrrachium/epidamnos the local school carries the name *TURGUT OZAL*? with 900 pupils?
are you one of them?

*
Estradioti* ??? how called the early Albanians the soldiers? Mercurius Bua Spata
soon coming more, 'educated' and 'civilized' man.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> When you answr my questions I will answer yours


I remember an good goalkeeper of Olimpiakos, named Tukuroglu, he was really good. 

BTW, i am reading some materials, it's curios but seems that the inhabitants of Mani, maniotes are all albanian origin. Even in Crete island we can find a lot of albanians .
King Otto and General Kalergi were right .

----------


## King Bardhyl

> no you don't, 
> you use a mask, a profile,
> 
> you write and post, you never answer, 
> 
> yes you are, you are a turk alban,
> like the musta-bey, remember him? The one who join qiutahi pasha and threatened all greeks and arbanites, to obey him.
> 
> What your turk-alban, the braveheart of albania told us in 1821,
> ...



delirium!!!!

----------


## King Bardhyl

Murrik Blue Shpata is the correct name.BTW I want your opinion about Thomas of Argos, he was an Albanian or Romei?

----------


## Yetos

> I remember an good goalkeeper of Olimpiakos, named Tukuroglu, he was really good. 
> 
> BTW, i am reading some materials, it's curios but seems that the inhabitants of Mani, maniotes are all albanian origin. Even in Crete island we can find a lot of albanians .
> King Otto and General Kalergi were right .


*Sorry no answer* *SUITABLE FOR AN EDUCATED MAN AS YOU CLAIM*

so quetsion still goes on,

WHERE ARE THE SULIOTES TODAY? ARE THEY IN ALBANIA?
WHERE IS KASTRIOTI FAMILY TODAY? ARE THEY IN ALBANIA?

WHY THE BIGGEST SCHOOL IN DURRESS IS NAMED TURGUT OZAL? 
in Durres at Kastrioti times 4 languages were Spoken
Greek Italian/Aromanian Albanian Slavic, *how many spoken today*? 


που Σκατογαυρε, ελα παρε μια .... ΜΕ ΗΡΑΚΛΕΙΔΗ ΜΙΛΑΣ ΖΩΟ,
o 4ος ΦΙΛΙΚΟΣ ηταν ο Εμμ ΠΑΠΠΑΣ, ΠΟΥ ΤΟΝ ΣΤΗΡΙΞΑΝ ΟΙ ΨΑΡΙΑΝΝΟΙ, ναυτικα, μετα την καταστροφη των Ψαρρων, ΚΑΙ ΕΜΕΙΝΕ ΑΠΟ ΠΥΡΟΜΑΧΙΚΑ, ΑΣΧΕΤΕ. Διαβασε λιγο Ιστορια του 1821.
αλλα το κολυμα σου σκατογαυρε ειναι αλλο. αστα αυτα, 


TUKUROGLOU YOU SAID?
hmm an Albanian who enter minor Asia, like your above post that Cretans are also Albanians.

YO TURK 
REMEMBER NE DE SKA in MAKEDONIA

Για πες και ο Παππαφλεσας και αυτος?

----------


## Yetos

> Murrik Blue Shpata is the correct name.BTW I want your opinion about Thomas of Argos, he was an Albanian or Romei?


?????
you notice that but not the Stradioti????

*how that is called?*

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *Sorry no answer* *SUITABLE FOR AN EDUCATED MAN AS YOU CLAIM*
> 
> so quetsion still goes on,
> 
> WHERE ARE THE SULIOTES TODAY? ARE THEY IN ALBANIA?
> WHERE IS KASTRIOTI FAMILY TODAY? ARE THEY IN ALBANIA?
> 
> WHY THE BIGGEST SCHOOL IN DURRESS IS NAMED TURGUT OZAL? 
> in Durres at Kastrioti times 4 languages were Spoken
> ...



Suliotes are christians orthodox cham, albanians. Large part of them are in greece part of them are in Leskovik Albania.The region of Souli is part of Chameria region and is under greek occupation. 
The descendants of Kastrioti familly are in Italy and Spain .
This college Turgut Ozal it's not the bigest in Durres. There are also greek college Arsaiko ,american etc. 
During the Scanderbeg time in durres were an quartier with merchants from Venice another with merchant from Genova, maybe someone speak aromanian, None greek or serb. 
Pls speak english, because i can understand a little greek but i don't understand what you have wrote.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> ?????
> you notice that but not the "Stradioti????
> 
> *how that is called?*


BTW there is a village in Suli named Kiafa, can you translate pls ?

----------


## Sile

> Suliotes are christians orthodox cham, albanians. Large part of them are in greece part of them are in Leskovik Albania.The region of Souli is part of Chameria region and is under greek occupation. 
> The descendants of Kastrioti familly are in Italy and Spain .
> This college Turgut Ozal it's not the bigest in Durres. There are also greek college Arsaiko ,american etc. 
> During the Scanderbeg time in durres were an quartier with merchants from Venice another with merchant from Genova, maybe someone speak aromanian, None greek or serb. 
> Pls speak english, because i can understand a little greek but i don't understand what you have wrote.


http://repositories.tdl.org/ttu-ir/b...pdf?sequence=1

The Kastrioti did not speak Italian......there was less than 100000 people in all of Italy at the time that spoke Italian, he most likely as with all educated and powerful dynasties spoke Latin to any of the republics or duchies in Italy

----------


## King Bardhyl

> http://repositories.tdl.org/ttu-ir/b...pdf?sequence=1
> 
> The Kastrioti did not speak Italian......there was less than 100000 people in all of Italy at the time that spoke Italian, he most likely as with all educated and powerful dynasties spoke Latin to any of the republics or duchies in Italy



“
Land of Albania! Where Iskander rose; 
Theme of the young and beacon of the wise, 
And he his namesake whose oft-baffeled foes 
Shrunk from his deeds of chivalrous emprize; 
Land of Albania! Let me bend mine eyes 
On thee, thou rugged nurse of Savage men! 
The cross descends, thy minarets arise, 
And the pale crescent sparkles in the glen, 
Through many a cypress grove within each city’s ken.

Beautifull

----------


## Yetos

> Suliotes are christians orthodox cham, albanians. Large part of them are in greece part of them are in Leskovik Albania.The region of Souli is part of Chameria region and is under greek occupation. 
> The descendants of Kastrioti familly are in Italy and Spain .
> This college Turgut Ozal it's not the bigest in Durres. There are also greek college Arsaiko ,american etc. 
> During the Scanderbeg time in durres were an quartier with merchants from Venice another with merchant from Genova, maybe someone speak aromanian, None greek or serb. 
> Pls speak english, because i can understand a little greek but i don't understand what you have wrote.


WRONG ANSWER,
No SULIOTES IN ALBANIA, 

soon more to come, cause I have relations with them.
and more from catholic Priest about that time, like Paul-Angel, you know who.

you drop the glove, I took it, simply I am waiting to recover myshelf, 
i can not sit more than 5 minutes in a chair right now,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> WRONG ANSWER,
> No SULIOTES IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> soon more to come, cause I have relations with them.
> and more from catholic Priest about that time, like Paul-Angel, you know who.
> 
> you drop the glove, I took it, simply I am waiting to recover myshelf, 
> i can not sit more than 5 minutes in a chair right now,






Suliote settled in Leskovik, i told you, it was Zylyftar poda who invited them. Most of them are descendants of Xhavella tribe, but also from other tribes. The tribe Xhavella are now know with surname Tasho. One of them Anesti Tasho made an book  “Suli dhe suliotët. Gjenealogjia e familjes Tasho” "Suli and Suliotes. Tasho Family Genealogy.

Also see this:
http://www.tiranaobserver.al/zhani-s...i-enver-hoxha/
In the photo Piro Sulioti an famous albanian tenor from Korca.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> WRONG ANSWER,
> No SULIOTES IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> soon more to come, cause I have relations with them.
> and more from catholic Priest about that time, like Paul-Angel, you know who.
> 
> you drop the glove, I took it, simply I am waiting to recover myshelf, 
> i can not sit more than 5 minutes in a chair right now,


_"soon more to come_"

So far you have not told us anything, your questions were nonsense, anyway i replied. You when will decide to answer?

----------


## King Bardhyl

> _"soon more to come_"
> 
> So far you have not told us anything, your questions were nonsense, anyway i replied. You when will decide to answer?


I insist :

_"I want to make some questions:
Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok"._ 





And do not hide behind Arvanites.
Are Maniotes albanian descendance?
Stradiotis were albanian ore romei?
Thomas of Argos was albanian or Romei?

I hope you will answeer this time, or our debate otherwise makes no sense.

----------


## King Bardhyl

You like to speak about language, do you see any link betwen albanian language and Tsakonian dialect?
As you see this are real question, not how many pupils are in one college in Albania.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> You like to speak about language, do you see any link betwen albanian language and Tsakonian dialect?
> As you see this are real question, not how many pupils are in one college in Albania.


As you see, a lot of nonsense questions by you, but even one logic answer to my questions.

----------


## Yetos

> Who told you that I am mussulman ? About you what is your surname Tukuroglou, Hatxhinicholau?
> BTW, i respect all religion. Try to make an normal discussion . If you dont hold the discussion , stop posting.


*
if my name is Chatzimichalis Χατζημιχαλης am I?*





> Suliotes are christians orthodox cham, albanians. Large part of them are in greece part of them are in Leskovik Albania.The region of Souli is part of Chameria region and is under greek occupation. 
> The descendants of Kastrioti familly are in Italy and Spain .
> This college Turgut Ozal it's not the bigest in Durres. There are also greek college Arsaiko ,american etc. 
> *During the Scanderbeg time in durres were an quartier with merchants from Venice another with merchant from Genova, maybe someone speak aromanian, None greek or serb. 
> *Pls speak english, because i can understand a little greek but i don't understand what you have wrote.



That is I Like to you, and all Albanians,
you easily get warm-Head, you radio transmit, you say that you are educated, and you pull your posts from an anti-Hellenick bank ,
but always the same mistake, in order to prove homogenous and nobles, you always drop to the same mistakes.

*”Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus” (Translation in R. Elsie: For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians).*
from _'Itinerarium Symonis Simeonis et Hugonis Illuminatoris ad Terram Sanctam_' 
what crusaders found in Durrachium Δυρραχιον.

thank you, 

He who hears ears to hear and eyes to see, let him think and understand

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *
> if my name is Chatzimichalis Χατζημιχαλης am I?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is I Like to you, and all Albanians,
> you easily get warm-Head, you radio transmit, you say that you are educated, and you pull your posts from an anti-Hellenick bank ,
> ...


Hatxhinicolau, i answered to this question :
You still did νοτ andswer me, In dyrrachium spoke 4 languages at times of Kastrioti Greek Albanian Italian/Aromani Slavic how many spoken today?
Can you make the diferences ? 
BTW ,you didn't answer to my questions. You know, you cannot hold this discussion .

----------


## King Bardhyl

Hatchinicolaoui you are not OK.
Thats your question:
*You still did νοτ andswer me,
In dyrrachium spoke 4 languages at times of Kastrioti Greek Albanian Italian/Aromani Slavic
how many spoken today?

*This was my answer:

During the Scanderbeg time in durres were an quartier with merchants from Venice another with merchant from Genova, maybe someone speak aromanian, None greek or serb. 

And thi is your answer:

*”Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus” (Translation in R. Elsie: For it is inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians).*
from _'Itinerarium Symonis Simeonis et Hugonis Illuminatoris ad Terram Sanctam_' 
what crusaders found in Durrachium Δυρραχιον.

Now you are not OK really;
*1322
Simon Fitzsimons:
Itinerary from Ireland
to the Holy Land*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg
In 1444, he initiated and organized the League of Lezhë, which proclaimed him _Chief of the League of the Albanian people_, and defended the region of Albania against the Ottoman Empire for 25 years.[1] 

Maybe you are confused with this crusade:
In 1463, he (Scanderbeg) became the chief commander of the crusading forces of Pope Pius II.


Still can not sit in the chair? I can understand, hard night yesterday.

----------


## King Bardhyl

And don`t forget you have to answer to my questions:
I insist :

_"I want to make some questions:
Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok"._ 

Are Maniotes albanian descendance?
Stradiotis were albanian ore romei?
Thomas of Argos was albanian or Romei?
You like to speak about language, do you see any link betwen albanian language and Tsakonian dialect? 

And do not hide behind Arvanites.

----------


## Yetos

> And don`t forget you have to answer to my questions:
> I insist :
> 
> _"I want to make some questions:
> Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
> In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
> During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
> ...



Νο I am hiding behind Arbanites, no need I am a proud MAKEDONIAN, who's village revolt in 1821, and you do not have to know how and where, just klnew at west parts of Makedonia revolts, not in Chalkidiki.

there is also another testimony about Dyrrachium at 1600, I am trying to find it,


tell me 
march 1821 how many revolt you know? except the one in peloponese,

Tell me Besides Kolokotronis, who in his memories says it clear not Albanian, *what about Makedonian Emm Pappas*?
is that good enough for you?
the 21 revolts of Makedonians, one of them same month and same day with the Iasion and peloponese, *search the revolt in Chalkidiki*, 
what about the Fillikos *Γρηγοριος Δικαιος* from *Peloponese*, does that say something to you? 

after that tell me, WAS HE ALBANIAN ALSO?? :Useless:  Emm Pappas? Γρ. Δικαιος, Κεφαλας the general in Maniaki, like you told us about Κολοκοτρονης, :Useless:  who in his memories say not.
I want you to enter the the Greek revolt, some parrallels you never read or see,
until now I gave you the 3rd revolt same time same day, 
you are too little, by own posts you deny what you say.

you found someone named Τασσο and you say he is Sulioti who change name from Tzabella and return to Albania!!! and the Tzavellas become Tasso.
Open your facebook and write Τζαβελλας Or Τζαβελας (λλ-λ) and see how many are in Greece, wow................ I am tired to look more than 100?
*






 Originally Posted by King Bardhyl


Suliote settled in Leskovik, i told you, it was Zylyftar poda who invited them. Most of them are descendants of Xhavella tribe, but also from other tribes. The tribe Xhavella are now know with surname Tasho. One of them Anesti Tasho made an book  “Suli dhe suliotët. Gjenealogjia e familjes Tasho” "Suli and Suliotes. Tasho Family Genealogy.

Also see this:
http://www.tiranaobserver.al/zhani-s...i-enver-hoxha/
In the photo Piro Sulioti an famous albanian tenor from Korca.



That is a chalenge to everyone, to realize what we are talking about here,

SOON how Turks enter balkans and from where, 

*until now I gave you some Heroes which I want you to remember, cause in the lesson about Filliki I will give few more, and also some dates, and some foreign data, which you probably never hear.search also the *Κατσαντωνης*.
it will help you understand whith Suliotes, and Karaiskakis,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Νο I am hiding behind Arbanites, no need I am a proud MAKEDONIAN, who's village revolt in 1821, and you do not have to know how and where, just klnew at west parts of Makedonia revolts, not in Chalkidiki.
> 
> there is also another testimony about Dyrrachium at 1600, I am trying to find it,
> 
> 
> tell me 
> march 1821 how many revolt you know? except the one in peloponese,
> 
> Tell me Besides Kolokotronis, who in his memories says it clear not Albanian, *what about Makedonian Emm Pappas*?
> ...


I had decided to not discuss with you, because you are not serious,but you like to speak about Katsantonis.
He was a petty thief whom Ali Pasha:
_Katsantonis and his second brother Yorgos Chasiotis (Greek: Γιώργος Χασιώτης or Yorgos from Chasia) were arrested and were led to the paşa, where they were tortured to death. Katsantonis was executed publicly by having his bones crushed with a sledgehammer._

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *
> The Greek Albanian Friendship ended at the times of Crocodilos Kladas.
> *


http://www.mani.org.gr/istor/klad2/kladas_arthro.htm
*Ο Κροκόδειλος (Κορκόδειλος-Κορκόντηλος-Ακροκόνδυλος) Κλαδάς (1425-1490) καταγόταν από τη Χιμάρα της Β. Ηπείρου και ήταν αλβανικής καταγωγής.*

translate:
*Crocodilos Kladas** (1425-1490) was originary from Himara, North Epir (South Albania) and was an albanian.
*

----------


## Yetos

> http://www.mani.org.gr/istor/klad2/kladas_arthro.htm
> *Ο Κροκόδειλος (Κορκόδειλος-Κορκόντηλος-Ακροκόνδυλος) Κλαδάς (1425-1490) καταγόταν από τη Χιμάρα της Β. Ηπείρου και ήταν αλβανικής καταγωγής.*
> 
> translate:
> *Crocodilos Kladas** (1425-1490) was originary from Himara, North Epir (South Albania) and was an albanian.
> *



oh really?

read this,
any differences?

http://www.livepedia.gr/index.php/%C...BB%CE%BF%CF%82

simply the same article, except what? i wonder who added and for what?
Θεοδωρος Κλαδας came from N Epirus Chimara, and I do not see any Albanian origin.

*AT LEAST MINE HAS A SIGNATURE, yours?*

in fact better look this
 _Αρχαία ιστορικά γεγονότα της οικογενείας των κομήτων Κλαδαίων από τα 1336 μέχρι τα 1830,_ Αθήνα 1872

besides I am searching the Kastrioti letters now, there is a publish about his grand father letters that is 'good' for you to see,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> oh really?
> 
> read this,
> any differences?
> 
> http://www.livepedia.gr/index.php/%C...BB%CE%BF%CF%82
> 
> simply the same article, except what? i wonder who added and for what?
> Θεοδωρος Κλαδας came from N Epirus Chimara, and I do not see any Albanian origin.
> ...


*αλβανικής καταγωγής* = *albanian origin*,more clear?
Who added? An Manioti.
http://www.mani.org.gr/istor/klad2/kladas_arthro.htm.
About Scanderbeg, don`t be funny. There can not be built your nation's history stealing other countries' personality. 




Must be satisfied that we brought you freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilandar
In 1426 Gjon Kastrioti, an Albanian lord, and his three sons (one of whom was Skanderbeg) donated the right to the proceeds from taxes collected from the two villages of Rostuša and Trebište (in Macedonia) and from the church of Saint Mary, which was in one of them, to the Hilandar where his son Reposh retired and died on 25 July 1431: in his honor the Tower of St. George of Hilandar was known as the "Albanian tower" (Serbian: Arbanaški pirg).[3][4]

And read this letters:
*The letter to Skanderbeg:* 
_Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgia Albanese, greeting._ 
_(Conveniva a te?), that the luck you had shown in the war with the enemies of the Christian religion, which sometimes had forced combat, then leaving that field, you came to Italy to drive your armies against Christians? What cause do you hold against me? What have I done against you? What controversies do they make between us?_ 
_You have spoiled my territories and are crudely giving vent against my subjects, and first you have (mosso?) the war that (proposta?). You boast that you are a great warrior for the Christian religion and (pur?) yet you persecute this (geate?) which for every reason is called Christianity. You have turned your iron against the French of the Kingdom of Sicily. Perhaps you have thought to take the army against the effeminate Turks that you are accustomed to wounding in the back._ 
_You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (ne?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house._ 
_You have avoided the onslaught of the Turks, and not having the power to defend your own house, have thought to invade other peopled s. You are deceitful. Instead of a new house you are looking for your grave._ 
_Goodbye......_ 
*Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:* 
_Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince ofTaranto, greeting._ 
_Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lOistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to setup the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?_ 
_I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (Ned?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (Imperocche vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war._ 
_I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Trojafrom the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (Ne troverai nobilita piu antica della virtu.)_ 
_Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperocche) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?_ 
_Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies._ 

_I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?_ 

_In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neO) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeO?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom._ 
_(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mivai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed._ 
_Good bye...._ 

To kseris afto?















IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!  

GJERGJ KASTRIOTI SCANDERBEG

----------

