# Population Genetics > mtDNA Haplogroups >  Haplogroup U and Ursula

## Porphyrogenita

Does anyone know if everyone in U descended from Ursula? I am getting mixed results in my search. Some places suggest Ursula stands for all of U. Others suggest it is just one of the subclades. What is the "name" of the common ancestor of all U members if not Ursula?
Any other Uers on this forum? =)

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## secherbernard

> Does anyone know if everyone in U descended from Ursula? I am getting mixed results in my search. Some places suggest Ursula stands for all of U. Others suggest it is just one of the subclades. What is the "name" of the common ancestor of all U members if not Ursula?
> Any other Uers on this forum? =)


Ursula is the maternal ancestor of all european U. It's Bryan Sykes, a british geneticist who give her name in his book: "The seven daughter of Eve".

But all U are not european. My mtDNA haplogroup is U6, and the origin of U6 is north-west Africa, so I am not descending from Ursula.

What is your exact mtDNA haplogroup ?

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## Porphyrogenita

Ok, that makes sense. It looks like Ursula is used only for U5. So would you argue that only U5 are "European"? 

I tested with the Genographic Project and they only told me U. I can narrow down a little bit, just based on where I'm from... but it's not specific enough. For eg, I'm pretty sure I am not U6, since it's most common in North Africa and I am from the Caucasus. Of course, I don't have enough information to know my actual subclade. I'd like to do further testing when I have the money. 
We do have a common ancestor, and she lived in a certain region, whether some of us are considered "European" or not. I remember reading that U members outside of Europe are probably the result of reverse migration - meaning that at least some of your ancestors were in Europe at some point, no? (Although I also see a source claiming U6 descended from an R female. Why is it U6 then?)

I'd refer you to the links I'm using, but I'm not allowed until I've made 10 posts at this forum.

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## secherbernard

> Ok, that makes sense. It looks like Ursula is used only for U5. So would you argue that only U5 are "European"? 
> 
> I tested with the Genographic Project and they only told me U. I can narrow down a little bit, just based on where I'm from... but it's not specific enough. For eg, I'm pretty sure I am not U6, since it's most common in North Africa and I am from the Caucasus. Of course, I don't have enough information to know my actual subclade. I'd like to do further testing when I have the money. 
> We do have a common ancestor, and she lived in a certain region, whether some of us are considered "European" or not. I remember reading that U members outside of Europe are probably the result of reverse migration - meaning that at least some of your ancestors were in Europe at some point, no? (Although I also see a source claiming U6 descended from an R female. Why is it U6 then?)
> 
> I'd refer you to the links I'm using, but I'm not allowed until I've made 10 posts at this forum.


Has Genographic project give you your mtDNA mutations ? May be if you give me your mutations I can give you more accuracy about your haplogroup.
All U (not only U6) descend from a R female.

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## Porphyrogenita

Well, I know that U descends from R, but does that mean each subclade descends from R? I thought that "subclade" signified that it descends from one U female. I'm clearly missing something here... 

Thanks for the offer. I did the GP about four years ago and lost my ID since and only remember that I was U. I asked them to trace my profile, but they don't keep the necessary records. =( 

For some reason I also remember thinking I was in Ursula, which is probably why I kept thinking that Ursula stands for all of U. So maybe I'm in U5, since that's the Ursula one... It's mostly in Europe proper, but I did read it's been found at low frequencies in the Near East from reverse migration, so being from the Caucasus it's a definite possibility. I guess I'll have to pay for more genetic testing if I want to solve this mystery... Thanks again!

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## Catchabus

> Well, I know that U descends from R, but does that mean each subclade descends from R? I thought that "subclade" signified that it descends from one U female. I'm clearly missing something here... 
> 
> Thanks for the offer. I did the GP about four years ago and lost my ID since and only remember that I was U. I asked them to trace my profile, but they don't keep the necessary records. =( 
> 
> For some reason I also remember thinking I was in Ursula, which is probably why I kept thinking that Ursula stands for all of U. So maybe I'm in U5, since that's the Ursula one... It's mostly in Europe proper, but I did read it's been found at low frequencies in the Near East from reverse migration, so being from the Caucasus it's a definite possibility. I guess I'll have to pay for more genetic testing if I want to solve this mystery... Thanks again!


Do you still have the packet NG sent with the DVD, there should be a tag with your ID number.

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## Porphyrogenita

I know, but I lost the box from the kit (either someone threw it away or it's somewhere in my mom's basement) Thanks for the suggestion. 

I just emailed them and they said their test only gives general Haplogroup, which I remember anyway, so the sequence they gave probably wouldn't be enough for the subclade anyway. I'll do more detailed testing with another company as soon as I can spare the money.

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## Maciamo

I think that Sykes gave different names (all starting with U) for each subclade of U.

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## Porphyrogenita

Yeah he did. Ursula is the name for U5. My new question is: Does each "subclade" of U descend from a different R female or U female? U descends from R, but don't the subclades descend from the original U*?

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## secherbernard

> Yeah he did. Ursula is the name for U5. My new question is: Does each "subclade" of U descend from a different R female or U female? U descends from R, but don't the subclades descend from the original U*?


See the following tree: http://www.phylotree.org/tree/subtree_U.htm 
All subclades of U descend from U*

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## Yorkie

From Bryan Sykes's literature:
U1 is 'Una'
U2 is 'Uta'
U3 is 'Uma'
U4 is 'Ulrike'
U5 is 'Ursula'

As secherbernard above says, all U descends from U*.
Given that you come from the Caucasus, I bet that you are most likely U5a1 like me. I am from England, and of English ancestry. My U5a1 has a distinct clustering around England, Denmark and Sweden. The Geneticist Martin Richards [Leeds Univ.] told me that my particular sequence was 'fairly rare' and found largely in Sweden. So, I am tempted to think that it came to Britain possibly via Viking invasions, though I am informed that the Vikings took few women with them. They stole plenty though..

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## foryouandme

i'm ursula. one of the oldest clans in europe. my ancestors would have encountered the neanderthals.

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## sparkey

> i'm ursula. one of the oldest clans in europe. my ancestors would have encountered the neanderthals.


Yes, probably. U5 has certainly been dominant in Mesolithic European DNA. But it's probably an older haplogroup than the Cro-Magnons, so it's possible that certain subclades were later introductions. Unlikely, though, as European U5 has a general pattern of ancientness. It's always difficult to analyze mtDNA because we don't get the luxury of STR analyses with it. Do you know your subclade?

Greetings from a matrilineal descendant of Ulrike.

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## foryouandme

> Do you know your subclade?


Yes, it's U5a.

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## Knovas

I think more or less all U's can be found in Europe. Probably U1 is the most uncommon, and I don't know so much about U4.

U2 (specially U2e subclade) is linked to the most ancient Europeans. A very interesting one.

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## Knovas

In recent days, I noticed something about U6.

I'm specially interested in *U6a7a1*, which I see is the maternal line of a Project Admin here having French ancestry. I also saw an individual of French-Acadian descent carrying the same subclade at 23andme, and I wondered about the origins of this clade. ¿Is it common in North Africa or it's exclusive to Europe (mainly France)?

By the way, *U6d* seems to be "recurrent" in Europeans considering the low presence. This one could have small apreciable presence in Spain, specially around the Northwest where I know one case. But also some Angloamericans belong to the same line, although in that cases it's not always possible to determine the recent origin.

Well, it's curious. Let's see if someone versed in U6 can show more information.

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## renoqueen

I am very new to genetic genealogy. My recent mtDNA testing came in, putting me in the u5a1a family. Could someone explain this in a little more detail for me please? A cousin and I tested to hopefully prove or dispel the rumor that our ancestors were not only Vikings, but, according to our long dead grandmother, we are descended from St. Magnus of Orkney. Our maternal grandmothers FATHER was from an old Orkney family, but her maternal line was in Berwickshire as far back as we can trace.

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## MtDNA

Hello,
welcome. Haplogroup U is very ancient. It has many subgroups which are spread across Europe, East Asia, South Asia, etc. Haplogroup K (which is found in Serbs as K2, and as K1a in Hebrews) is a descendent of U (as U8).
@Porphyrogenita, do you happen to know what subclade you are?

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## John Doe

> Hello,
> welcome. Haplogroup U is very ancient. It has many subgroups which are spread across Europe, East Asia, South Asia, etc. Haplogroup K (which is found in Serbs as K2, and as K1a in Hebrews) is a descendent of U (as U8).
> @Porphyrogenita, do you happen to know what subclade you are?


K1a is found throughout west Eurasia, not just among Jews.

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## Sile

> Hello,
> welcome. Haplogroup U is very ancient. It has many subgroups which are spread across Europe, East Asia, South Asia, etc. Haplogroup K (which is found in Serbs as K2, and as K1a in Hebrews) is a descendent of U (as U8).
> @Porphyrogenita, do you happen to know what subclade you are?


You need to go down further into the tree and find this "hebrew" marker in K1a and actually state what it is , instead of claiming all K1a is hebrew, .......... 90% of K1a are not hebrew

you most likely refer to only this marker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1a_%28mtDNA%29

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## John Doe

> You need to go down further into the tree and find this "hebrew" marker in K1a and actually state what it is , instead of claiming all K1a is hebrew, .......... 90% of K1a are not hebrew
> 
> you most likely refer to only this marker
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1a_%28mtDNA%29


There are 3 K1a markers that are exclusively Ashkenazi Jewish, K1a9, K2a2a and K1a1b1a, on a side note, I doubt they exist among non Ashkenazi Jews.

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## MtDNA

But happlogroup K came from U8, which originated in Southern India. The migration occured along with Y-dna haps J1 and J2, which also migrated from the same area. The J1 and J2 lineage have strong, but not nescesarily complete, association with the semites. J1 and J2 were the Y-haps found in the ancient semites, and others in which the proto-semites "influenced". In fact, J1 is hypothesized to be the haplogroup of Abraham (pbuh), due to it's presence in Ishmaelites and the Cohens (all direct descendants). 
Even if its not found in Hebrews in the strict sense, members of K still have a maternal lineage from the proto-semites, and the South-Indians.

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## John Doe

> But happlogroup K came from U8, which originated in Southern India. The migration occured along with Y-dna haps J1 and J2, which also migrated from the same area. The J1 and J2 lineage have strong, but not nescesarily complete, association with the semites. J1 and J2 were the Y-haps found in the ancient semites, and others in which the proto-semites "influenced". In fact, J1 is hypothesized to be the haplogroup of Abraham (pbuh), due to it's presence in Ishmaelites and the Cohens (all direct descendants). 
> Even if its not found in Hebrews in the strict sense, members of K still have a maternal lineage from the proto-semites, and the South-Indians.


And we all descend from east Africa if we're talking about it in that way.

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## LadyAlaise

Hi all! So I finally got my full sequence in and I am U3a1c. (a subclade of Uma's branch). Although I will admit some confusion as from what I have been reading my ancient maternal ancestry comes out of (in like the last 7-10 or so thousand years geographically) Scandinavia, somewhere near the Caucasuses, or even possibly the Middle East? or maybe that was the general route it took? *shakes head*. A recent discovery according to the U3 project admin who was looking at my results; I apparently have a very Unique mutation in my coding region (marker 9516), so unique that No One Else Thus Tested in the U3 project with this company has it! (Surprise to me). I do have 18 matches most are 3 step matches which I THINK means our common ancestress was alive likely 700-just over 1,000 years ago, and one 2 step match which I think means our common ancestress was alive roughly 500 or so years ago. The admin thinks my mutation will be handy in finding others within U3a1c who are much more closely related to me. 
I have tons of questions lol but I think for now, the one on my mind (aside where my maternal ancestry comes from in the last several thousand years), is;
Does Marker 9615 in the Coding Region do anything? or serve a purpose??
(I also had 4 other extra mutations according to the company I tested with but the admin told me those others were fairly common)
My recent maternal ancestry comes from Ireland; traceable via records until just about 1800 in County Kerry.

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