# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

## matadworf

I was playing around with a number of Bronze age samples today just to get an idea of how they compared to both Italians and Greeks. I know this discussion has been had in the past (beginning with LeBrok back a few years ago) but I wanted to see for myself the proximity of modern (Greek and Italian) pops to ancient ones. 

Distance to:
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.05229642
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.05666228
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.05761755
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.05775375
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.05783845
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.05908995
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.05913379
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

0.06080060
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.06086182
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.06119250
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.06139175
Italian_Campania:CMP_b001_2

0.06217133
Italian_Campania:NaN207MM

0.06221050
Italian_Apulia:GS32

0.06226210
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.06272470
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7

0.06278595
Italian_Apulia:Pu45

0.06295368
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.06308425
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205

0.06319445
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10

0.06337246
Italian_Campania:NaN58AC

0.06341783
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.06404172
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.06455261
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.06531274
Italian_Campania:NaN293SF

0.06567423
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22




Distance to:
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.05109770
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.05381158
Greek_Crete:764

0.05389738
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.05421605
Greek_Crete:730

0.05455532
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.05492309
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.05503101
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.05541186
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.05561876
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.05570675
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.05606533
Greek_Dodecanese:666

0.05658284
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.05726270
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.05777484
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2

0.05785622
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.05788623
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36

0.05793155
Greek_Crete:737

0.05824497
Greek_Crete:776

0.05841126
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.05896817
Greek_Crete:756

0.05912177
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos6

0.05993863
Greek_Crete:732

0.06041550
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10

0.06041848
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.06082303
Greek_Crete:787



Distance to:
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.08057324
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08174604
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08454837
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08671642
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08706366
Greek_Crete:730

0.08792462
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.08811068
Greek_Crete:764

0.08843420
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.08868820
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08880456
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.08915976
Greek_Crete:787

0.08946848
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.08951565
Greek_Crete:795

0.08982131
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6

0.08992363
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.09011202
Greek_Laconia:639

0.09052408
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23

0.09066251
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.09081305
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5

0.09087961
Greek_Laconia:LA-70

0.09092876
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39

0.09102527
Greek_Crete:737

0.09102693
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.09120674
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8

0.09133835
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8



Distance to:
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.07943432
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08401344
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08467528
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.08488402
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.08504886
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08521395
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.08563829
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08614998
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08669381
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.08687202
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08732234
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.08734965
Italian_Lazio:PG28

0.08745619
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.08771034
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.08832575
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.08837509
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.08840372
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.08841938
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.08870071
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.08960883
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG

0.08968471
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.08971092
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503

0.09053285
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

0.09062938
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5

0.09075888
Italian_Basilicata:PG16



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.07396656
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.07612405
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.07858996
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.07877825
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5

0.07961100
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08097034
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08120898
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.08121762
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG

0.08181277
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.08191481
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.08237183
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.08254082
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08259931
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.08320881
Italian_Apulia:GS47

0.08337653
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08346920
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.08443196
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.08446543
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.08467586
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.08470882
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.08504825
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4

0.08547776
Italian_Apulia:GS34

0.08555631
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.08559968
Italian_Campania:NaN128LA

0.08583687
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.07082342
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.07161773
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.07550991
Greek_Crete:730

0.07699427
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.07762504
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.07808289
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.07819482
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.07964662
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08004858
Greek_Crete:795

0.08051669
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08087191
Greek_Crete:793

0.08118458
Greek_Crete:764

0.08136539
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08191604
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5

0.08207882
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.08223692
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6

0.08255404
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.08266252
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos7

0.08329064
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8

0.08366988
Greek_Crete:787

0.08380579
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.08386585
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23

0.08391847
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.08395150
Greek_Crete:781

0.08415245
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-3



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.02385714
Greek_Messenia:MES-10

0.02475681
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144

0.02483628
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-1

0.02621195
Greek_Elis:IL-21

0.02735152
Greek_Achaea:AHA-6

0.02772744
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11

0.02786639
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-74

0.02812256
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-6

0.02817187
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-52

0.02817865
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-62

0.02836481
Greek_Messenia:MES-11

0.02846929
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162

0.02864237
Greek_Messenia:MES-7

0.02897157
Greek_Elis:IL-14

0.02954145
Greek_Peloponnese:630

0.02993615
Greek_Laconia:LA-20

0.03002561
Greek_Achaea:AHA-37

0.03019496
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126

0.03045593
Greek_Elis:IL-6

0.03057902
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-2

0.03066044
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-21

0.03070514
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-4

0.03073924
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-2

0.03075050
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-6

0.03093782
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.02373942
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98

0.02421801
Italian_Tuscany:NA20505

0.02493173
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136

0.02506172
Italian_Umbria:PG04

0.02650583
Italian_Marche:MarACO060D

0.02678056
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43

0.02720604
Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114

0.02745049
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany74

0.02747902
Italian_Lazio:PG28

0.02766527
Italian_Tuscany:VO65

0.02781530
Italian_Marche:MarADC050D

0.02786572
Italian_Veneto:ALP209

0.02826447
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany38

0.02856948
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27

0.02922166
Italian_Liguria:ALP099

0.02929363
Italian_Marche:MarADG030D

0.02951793
Italian_Lombardy:BGD31

0.02958448
Italian_Umbria:PG08

0.02968565
Italian_Marche:MarABG010D

0.02988534
Italian_Umbria:PG03

0.02999068
Italian_Tuscany:NA20502

0.03014909
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany54

0.03043116
Italian_Marche:MarABI020D

0.03051376
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

0.03072065
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.07276622
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.07457648
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.07557053
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.07638546
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.07772044
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.07931800
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.07941050
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.07954262
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.08004436
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.08011665
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08028897
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.08115337
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.08127368
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

0.08157409
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.08189227
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.08190437
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.08201729
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205

0.08284390
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.08296162
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10

0.08339388
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.08371054
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.08380087
Italian_Campania:NaN207MM

0.08380303
Italian_Apulia:cera8

0.08382299
Italian_Campania:CMP_b001_2

0.08442911
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.07198321
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.07502422
Greek_Crete:730

0.07663021
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.07682129
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.07720118
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.07721511
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.07722844
Greek_Crete:764

0.07750223
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.07758861
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.07784232
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.07890333
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.07924573
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.07940177
Greek_Crete:737

0.07997713
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.08018096
Greek_Crete:787

0.08030651
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.08039470
Greek_Crete:776

0.08052156
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.08056013
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.08066947
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.08082170
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23

0.08165975
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.08179573
Greek_Dodecanese:666

0.08208996
Greek_Crete:756

0.08297443
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.03429604
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8

0.03464362
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144

0.03494550
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11

0.03503775
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162

0.03540763
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11

0.03721391
Greek_Laconia:LA-20

0.03738168
Greek_Elis:IL-28

0.03799359
Greek_Achaea:AHA-15

0.03858363
Greek_Macedonia:680

0.03886372
Greek_Laconia:LA-37

0.03893300
Greek_Elis:IL-14

0.03923017
Greek_Messenia:MES-10

0.03934317
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-6

0.03942631
Greek_Macedonia:674

0.03995154
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-2

0.04048197
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126

0.04076638
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-11

0.04096364
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-14

0.04138029
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-3

0.04174941
Greek_Macedonia:675

0.04189023
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-7

0.04214323
Greek_Achaea:AHA-36

0.04234912
Greek_Achaea:AHA-25

0.04239751
Greek_Elis:IL-17

0.04249031
Greek_Laconia:LA-28



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.03639460
Italian_Veneto:ALP273

0.03716220
Italian_Northeast:ALP346

0.03750364
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136

0.03751265
Italian_Lombardy:ALP288

0.03816617
Italian_Veneto:ALP022

0.03850786
Italian_Veneto:ALP209

0.03854452
Italian_Northeast:KF2700960

0.03861178
Italian_Veneto:ALP249

0.03887091
Italian_Northeast:ALP093

0.03960790
Italian_Northeast:ALP506

0.04016279
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43

0.04022220
Italian_Northeast:KF1800761

0.04060758
Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61

0.04072172
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127

0.04107155
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63

0.04119356
Italian_Northeast:ALP280

0.04161233
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98

0.04190971
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395

0.04198536
Italian_Veneto:ALP322

0.04198817
Italian_Northeast:ALP233

0.04205362
Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont154

0.04214337
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

0.04223114
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420

0.04233357
Italian_Northeast:KF1803129

0.04247688
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont145



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.04920951
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.04932923
Greek_Crete:779

0.05006799
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.05022500
Greek_Crete:Crete8

0.05074362
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5

0.05079336
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39

0.05189201
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-3

0.05210423
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.05226241
Greek_Crete:817

0.05270345
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-50

0.05280894
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26

0.05324718
Greek_Crete:766

0.05329112
Greek_Laconia:LA-67

0.05340931
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-17

0.05344243
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k

0.05351134
Greek_Crete:792

0.05367888
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-15

0.05369018
Greek_Laconia:639

0.05370752
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.05374776
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.04014157
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.04417324
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.04566336
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.04666683
Italian_Basilicata:PG24

0.04680221
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.04711346
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503

0.04752752
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.04788991
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.04795879
Italian_Apulia:cera8

0.04817962
Italian_Calabria:BEL57

0.04863048
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H

0.04884304
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.04907273
Italian_Campania:CMP_b003_2

0.04924382
Italian_Apulia:GS47

0.04927002
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.04937816
Italian_Apulia:ALP583

0.04961262
Italian_Campania:ITS4

0.04962955
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.04993607
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.05001951
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.05012351
Italian_Apulia:Pu8

0.05020041
Italian_Basilicata:PG19

0.05026525
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090

0.05079776
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.05110018
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo21



Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.06525370
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.06671408
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.06705647
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.06765001
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.06933967
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.06940970
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.07009006
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.07089865
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.07220446
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.07236629
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.07246936
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.07276306
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.07294601
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

0.07302600
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM



Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.06182074
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.06499758
Greek_Crete:730

0.06716127
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.06768404
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.06842074
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.06856741
Greek_Crete:764

0.06876478
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.06897847
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.06933722
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.06940632
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.07049300
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.07064709
Greek_Crete:776

0.07105143
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

----------


## matadworf

It appears Sicilians are closest to Myceneans which isn't a surprise as are Deep Maniots (who tend to cluster with Cretans).

----------


## matadworf

Target: GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
Distance: 1.4388% / 0.01438842

86.8
TUR_Barcin_N



5.6
TUR_Barcin_C



4.0
TUR_Isparta_EBA



3.6
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA





Target: GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
Distance: 1.8677% / 0.01867660

69.4
TUR_Barcin_N



17.8
TUR_Isparta_EBA



9.2
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



2.0
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA



1.0
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



0.6
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N





Target: GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
Distance: 1.3456% / 0.01345627

52.0
TUR_Barcin_N



20.6
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



7.4
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA



7.2
TUR_Isparta_EBA



4.4
TUR_IA_low_res



3.8
GEO_CHG



2.4
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



2.2
TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA





Target: GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08
Distance: 1.3513% / 0.01351273

49.8
TUR_Barcin_N



19.8
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



17.6
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



6.8
TUR_Isparta_EBA



4.2
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA



1.8
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps





Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
Distance: 2.0360% / 0.02035995

62.8
TUR_Barcin_N



12.6
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA



12.4
TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA



9.2
TUR_Isparta_EBA



3.0
GEO_CHG






Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
Distance: 1.0111% / 0.01011112

46.8
TUR_Barcin_N



25.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus



24.6
BGR_EBA



2.4
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



1.2
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N





Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
Distance: 2.4036% / 0.02403620

36.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus



36.2
TUR_Barcin_N



17.2
TUR_IA_low_res



9.6
BGR_EBA



0.2
Baltic_LVA_HG





Target: GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
Distance: 1.4388% / 0.01438842

86.8
TUR_Barcin_N



5.6
TUR_Barcin_C



4.0
TUR_Isparta_EBA



3.6
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

----------


## Angela

> It appears Sicilians are closest to Myceneans which isn't a surprise as are Deep Maniots (who tend to cluster with Cretans).


With Calabria coming next.

Don't you think it might be more informative, and perhaps easier to interpret if you combined the modern Greek and Italian samples and then ran the ancient samples against the combined set?

----------


## matadworf

> With Calabria coming next.
> 
> Don't you think it might be more informative, and perhaps easier to interpret if you combined the modern Greek and Italian samples and then ran the ancient samples against the combined set?


Ok I’ll give it a go

----------


## matadworf

Distance to:
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01

0.06643596
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.06853872
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.06959476
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.06992838
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.07020552
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.07100033
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.07173089
Greek_Crete:730

0.07224881
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.07287448
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.07366779
Greek_Crete:764

0.07377648
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.07379177
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.07379203
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.07429497
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.07435015
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.07454079
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.07468118
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.07526261
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.07534717
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.07538846
Greek_Crete:795

0.07540185
Greek_Crete:776

0.07565137
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.07588907
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.07595719
Greek_Crete:787

0.07602240
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17



Distance to:
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.05109770
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.05229642
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.05381158
Greek_Crete:764

0.05389738
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.05421605
Greek_Crete:730

0.05455532
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.05492309
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.05503101
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.05541186
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.05561876
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.05570675
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.05606533
Greek_Dodecanese:666

0.05658284
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.05666228
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.05726270
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.05761755
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.05775375
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.05777484
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2

0.05783845
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.05785622
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.05788623
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36

0.05793155
Greek_Crete:737

0.05824497
Greek_Crete:776

0.05841126
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.05896817
Greek_Crete:756



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.02373942
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98

0.02385714
Greek_Messenia:MES-10

0.02421801
Italian_Tuscany:NA20505

0.02475681
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144

0.02483628
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-1

0.02493173
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136

0.02506172
Italian_Umbria:PG04

0.02621195
Greek_Elis:IL-21

0.02650583
Italian_Marche:MarACO060D

0.02678056
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43

0.02720604
Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114

0.02735152
Greek_Achaea:AHA-6

0.02745049
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany74

0.02747902
Italian_Lazio:PG28

0.02766527
Italian_Tuscany:VO65

0.02772744
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11

0.02781530
Italian_Marche:MarADC050D

0.02786572
Italian_Veneto:ALP209

0.02786639
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-74

0.02812256
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-6

0.02817187
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-52

0.02817865
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-62

0.02826447
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany38

0.02836481
Greek_Messenia:MES-11

0.02846929
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.03429604
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8

0.03464362
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144

0.03494550
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11

0.03503775
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162

0.03540763
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11

0.03639460
Italian_Veneto:ALP273

0.03716220
Italian_Northeast:ALP346

0.03721391
Greek_Laconia:LA-20

0.03738168
Greek_Elis:IL-28

0.03750364
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136

0.03751265
Italian_Lombardy:ALP288

0.03799359
Greek_Achaea:AHA-15

0.03816617
Italian_Veneto:ALP022

0.03850786
Italian_Veneto:ALP209

0.03854452
Italian_Northeast:KF2700960

0.03858363
Greek_Macedonia:680

0.03861178
Italian_Veneto:ALP249

0.03886372
Greek_Laconia:LA-37

0.03887091
Italian_Northeast:ALP093

0.03893300
Greek_Elis:IL-14

0.03923017
Greek_Messenia:MES-10

0.03934317
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-6

0.03942631
Greek_Macedonia:674

0.03960790
Italian_Northeast:ALP506

0.03995154
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-2



Distance to:
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.07943432
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08057324
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08174604
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08401344
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08454837
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08467528
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.08488402
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.08504886
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08521395
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.08563829
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08614998
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08669381
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.08671642
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08687202
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08706366
Greek_Crete:730

0.08732234
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.08734965
Italian_Lazio:PG28

0.08745619
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.08771034
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.08792462
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.08811068
Greek_Crete:764

0.08832575
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.08837509
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.08840372
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.08841938
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.07082342
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.07161773
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.07396656
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.07550991
Greek_Crete:730

0.07612405
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.07699427
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.07762504
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.07808289
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.07819482
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.07858996
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.07877825
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5

0.07961100
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.07964662
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08004858
Greek_Crete:795

0.08051669
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08087191
Greek_Crete:793

0.08097034
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08118458
Greek_Crete:764

0.08120898
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.08121762
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG

0.08136539
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08181277
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.08191481
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.08191604
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5

0.08207882
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070

0.07832163
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08020995
Greek_Crete:730

0.08071060
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08137750
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08185439
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08338716
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.08356321
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08402440
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08438110
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08453944
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.08467283
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.08472208
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.08476044
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08486409
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.08490261
Greek_Dodecanese:666

0.08492467
Greek_Crete:764

0.08496105
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.08498009
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.08502628
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08515830
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.08559410
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.08616490
Greek_Crete:776

0.08621893
Greek_Crete:737

0.08623863
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08705442
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.07198321
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.07276622
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.07457648
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.07502422
Greek_Crete:730

0.07557053
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.07638546
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.07663021
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.07682129
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.07720118
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.07721511
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.07722844
Greek_Crete:764

0.07750223
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.07758861
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.07772044
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.07784232
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.07890333
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.07924573
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.07931800
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.07940177
Greek_Crete:737

0.07941050
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.07954262
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.07997713
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.08004436
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.08011665
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08018096
Greek_Crete:787



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073

0.08083854
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08313023
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08407606
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08416326
Greek_Crete:730

0.08586755
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08653421
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08695460
Greek_Crete:764

0.08715217
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08725901
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.08726021
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.08746260
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08779815
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.08787447
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08834279
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.08839618
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08876140
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.08897698
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.08902906
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08932462
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.08958808
Greek_Crete:787

0.08978766
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08980727
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.08983282
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.09005145
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.09012096
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074

0.08074679
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08102547
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08444423
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.08449798
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.08477264
Greek_Crete:730

0.08510564
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.08522092
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.08596875
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.08617637
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08700978
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.08721373
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5

0.08725119
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.08726515
Greek_Crete:764

0.08755123
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.08770786
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.08778429
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.08810801
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.08834667
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.08898581
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.08899319
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08987695
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.08988141
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos7

0.09011495
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.09015937
Greek_Crete:795

0.09057430
Greek_Dodecanese:672



Distance to:
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005

0.08648063
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08800634
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08855119
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.08921257
Greek_Crete:730

0.09021684
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.09040915
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.09041612
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.09071825
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.09127112
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.09128460
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.09241904
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.09247994
Greek_Crete:764

0.09248077
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.09252485
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.09300337
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.09343183
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.09345086
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.09368060
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.09368915
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.09375220
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.09385800
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.09393832
Greek_Crete:776

0.09408964
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.09430206
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.09454448
Italian_Apulia:Pu7



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006

0.05258207
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.05392673
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.05534277
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.05602970
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.05659607
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.05700043
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.05719276
Greek_Crete:730

0.05723539
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.05811816
Greek_Crete:764

0.05856496
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.05899427
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.05917307
Greek_Crete:737

0.05960317
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.05961498
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.05982339
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.05987469
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.05993146
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.06005939
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.06020187
Greek_Crete:746

0.06025859
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.06048368
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205

0.06056947
Greek_Laconia:LA-66

0.06068618
Greek_Crete:776

0.06072697
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36

0.06081428
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

0.06077828
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.06237200
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.06328785
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.06429187
Greek_Crete:730

0.06485794
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.06498171
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.06552425
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.06558114
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.06627593
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.06660027
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10

0.06697216
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.06721575
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.06751287
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.06760815
Greek_Dodecanese:664

0.06812892
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.06844686
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.06851478
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.06899449
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7

0.06908933
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.06943841
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36

0.06957965
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.06959007
Greek_Crete:780

0.06997445
Italian_Campania:NaN207MM

0.06998726
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9

0.07006362
Greek_Crete:756



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.04014157
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.04417324
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.04566336
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.04666683
Italian_Basilicata:PG24

0.04680221
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.04711346
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503

0.04752752
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.04788991
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.04795879
Italian_Apulia:cera8

0.04817962
Italian_Calabria:BEL57

0.04863048
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H

0.04884304
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.04907273
Italian_Campania:CMP_b003_2

0.04920951
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.04924382
Italian_Apulia:GS47

0.04927002
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.04932923
Greek_Crete:779

0.04937816
Italian_Apulia:ALP583

0.04961262
Italian_Campania:ITS4

0.04962955
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.04993607
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.05001951
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.05006799
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.05012351
Italian_Apulia:Pu8

0.05020041
Italian_Basilicata:PG19



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.04125105
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.04545763
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.04555452
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.04585918
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.04624533
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.04624698
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.04653490
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.04703988
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.04762915
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.04780240
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.04909118
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22

0.04958737
Italian_Apulia:cera8

0.04970356
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.04980376
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.04980480
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.04984647
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.04992682
Greek_Crete:756

0.05010067
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.05021048
Italian_Apulia:Pu45

0.05028946
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.05073235
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8

0.05090367
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10

0.05104070
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.05104867
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.05118901
Italian_Campania:NaN238DM



Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318

0.10822088
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.11166904
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.11457204
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.11575855
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.11586739
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.11607712
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.11665744
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.11665880
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.11683061
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.11700563
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.11727354
Greek_Crete:730

0.11772299
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.11795549
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.11872836
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.11873420
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.11876133
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.11904170
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.11919248
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.11928481
Italian_Campania:NaN207MM

0.11935784
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.11947074
Greek_Crete:764

0.11954860
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.11961227
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10

0.11965075
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.11982826
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9



Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937

0.10752140
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.10860597
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.11104563
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.11126654
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.11209638
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.11211440
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.11384878
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.11387808
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.11419491
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.11421289
Italian_Lazio:PG28

0.11471790
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.11529417
Greek_Crete:730

0.11542753
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.11556362
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.11568051
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.11589902
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.11594022
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.11602832
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.11626310
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.11660434
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.11670004
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.11682416
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG

0.11690856
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.11703887
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.11706262
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC




Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708

0.09804053
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.10253408
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.10360450
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.10476299
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.10489076
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.10529758
Greek_Crete:730

0.10560574
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.10689702
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.10691204
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.10708559
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.10723561
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.10755146
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.10756858
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.10764039
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.10766409
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.10826090
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

0.10853386
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.10859618
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10

0.10887394
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.10892057
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.10947471
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.10964707
Greek_Crete:764

0.10965550
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.10984774
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.11026296
Italian_Calabria:ALP596



Distance to:
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709

0.08584546
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.08755371
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.08915824
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.08967199
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3

0.09008570
Greek_Crete:730

0.09043106
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.09052415
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.09090900
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.09146654
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2

0.09205824
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2

0.09212138
Greek_Dodecanese:668

0.09258354
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.09260478
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.09303181
Greek_Crete:764

0.09321930
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.09344773
Greek_Crete:Crete7

0.09416450
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.09416603
Greek_Dodecanese:667

0.09442408
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

0.09492495
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1

0.09510474
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5

0.09523238
Greek_Dodecanese:665

0.09544412
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.09551842
Greek_Dodecanese:672

0.09560925
Greek_Crete:787

----------


## matadworf

> With Calabria coming next.
> 
> Don't you think it might be more informative, and perhaps easier to interpret if you combined the modern Greek and Italian samples and then ran the ancient samples against the combined set?


Is that what you were thinking? See above

----------


## matadworf

Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
Distance: 1.0405% / 0.01040510 | R3P


50.6
TUR_Barcin_N


26.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus


22.6
BGR_EBA



Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
Distance: 2.5275% / 0.02527466 | R5P


47.0
TUR_Barcin_N


40.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus


12.0
BGR_EBA


0.2
Baltic_LVA_HG

----------


## matadworf

> Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
> Distance: 1.0405% / 0.01040510 | R3P
> 
> 
> 50.6
> TUR_Barcin_N
> 
> 
> 26.8
> ...


I'm thinking that certain folks were hoping that Myceneans would have such "high" steppe!

----------


## Angela

> Is that what you were thinking? See above


Just looking over the results it seemed to me that I was seeing a lot of Campania, and sometimes also Apulia and Calabria being closer to the ancient samples than the Sicilians. 

That's also often been rather a "hunch" of mine, given what I know of ancient history. 

The leaked information about samples from ancient Neapolis corresponds nicely as well, don't you think? The first Greek colonial settlements were there. There were a lot on the Ionian coast of Calabria as well, and Apulia has seen lots of migration from the Balkans, and especially Greece, in lots of different eras. 

Also notice that Western Sicily doesn't show up, just eastern Sicily, which is the part of Sicily closest to Calabria. I've always suspected that the matches might not be as good for Western Sicily, i.e. Palermo, because it would have both the highest Moorish and the highest "western" input, which would dilute the ancient mix a bit more. 

No surprise, of course, that Deep Mani and the Greek Islands show up, with Deep Mani most of the time neck and neck with Campania. Amazing how they managed to keep so isolated, although from some data I've seen they do have a bit of Slavic. Fierce fighters from what I've read, like the Spartans, another group from the Peloponnese.:) 

I've seen old pictures and videos of them and might as well have been looking at some Southern Italians, although there's variety in Southern Italy as well as the rest of Italy. 

I'd say they've been a bit romanticized, especially by the British, but I quite understand why; handsome, proud looking men, if these are any indication.

----------


## matadworf

> Just looking over the results it seemed to me that I was seeing a lot of Campania, and sometimes also Apulia and Calabria being closer to the ancient samples than the Sicilians. 
> 
> That's also often been rather a "hunch" of mine, given what I know of ancient history. 
> 
> The leaked information about samples from ancient Neapolis corresponds nicely as well, don't you think? The first Greek colonial settlements were there. There were a lot on the Ionian coast of Calabria as well, and Apulia has seen lots of migration from the Balkans, and especially Greece, in lots of different eras. 
> 
> Also notice that Western Sicily doesn't show up, just eastern Sicily, which is the part of Sicily closest to Calabria. I've always suspected that the matches might not be as good for Western Sicily, i.e. Palermo, because it would have both the highest Moorish and the highest "western" input, which would dilute the ancient mix a bit more. 
> 
> No surprise, of course, that Deep Mani and the Greek Islands show up, with Deep Mani most of the time neck and neck with Campania. Amazing how they managed to keep so isolated, although from some data I've seen they do have a bit of Slavic. Fierce fighters from what I've read, like the Spartans, another group from the Peloponnese.:) 
> ...


Yes the Maniates are a proud people and it's amazing how isolated (and genetically homogeneous) they've remained given the various incursions into Greece from the early middle ages on. There is historical evidence that they received some additional input from Crete (pirates?) during the late middle ages but it's not totally substantiated. It does seem that they are the closest population to the ancients. You're right they would fit in nicely with Southern Italians and my guess is that their genetic makeup most likely resembles the folks that settled Magna Grecia.

----------


## Angela

> Yes the Maniates are a proud people and it's amazing how isolated (and genetically homogeneous) they've remained given the various incursions into Greece from the early middle ages on. There is historical evidence that they received some additional input from Crete (pirates?) during the late middle ages but it's not totally substantiated. It does seem that they are the closest population to the ancients. You're right they would fit in nicely with Southern Italians and my guess is that they're genetic makeup most likely resembles the folks that settled Magna Grecia.


Well, if we ever get our hands on those samples we'll be able to check it out.

----------


## Angela

Also, if you have the coordinates for the combined Greek and Italian samples in a file you can easily access, could you post them? Thanks in advance.

----------


## matadworf

> Also, if you have the coordinates for the combined Greek and Italian samples in a file you can easily access, could you post them? Thanks in advance.


Greek Averages

Cypriot,0.0997375,0.146744,-0.0378534,-0.0702525,-0.0070011,-0.0242986,0.001645,-0.0047594,0.0029656,0.0138728,0.0044454,-0.0001499,0.0025459,0.0018234,-0.0086014,0.0008947,0.0023631,0.0009978,0.0022469,-0.0012506,-0.0024489,0.0011438,-0.0027115,0.0017774,-0.0020656
Greek_Achaea:AHA-10,0.1161,0.147252,0.000377,-0.028424,0.014464,-0.008646,0.001645,-0.001615,-0.000409,0.023326,0.001137,0.005245,-0.000595,-0.005367,-0.006107,0.001724,0.004955,0.000507,0.003645,-0.007629,-0.004991,0.003339,0.003328,0.005543,0.001197
Greek_Achaea:AHA-11,0.121791,0.149283,0.001508,-0.017765,0.017542,-0.013666,0.00329,0.003923,0.007567,0.011663,-0.001624,-0.000599,0.006541,0.007569,-0.011401,0.002121,0.009257,0.00152,0.010936,0.0008 75,-0.006489,0.001978,0.003204,-0.00241,-0.005029
Greek_Achaea:AHA-12,0.117238,0.141159,0.003394,-0.019057,0.01908,-0.011713,0.000235,-0.002538,0.001023,0.019317,-0.000812,-0.002548,-0.003122,0.007019,-0.013029,-0.013524,-0.009257,-0.00114,0.007793,-0.013131,-0.00287,0.001978,0.00037,-0.003374,0.002634
Greek_Achaea:AHA-13,0.117238,0.142174,0.001508,-0.020995,0.020619,-0.008925,0.000705,-0.002308,0.001636,0.014032,0.004547,0.001349,-0.001487,0.004129,-0.016015,0.008353,0.00665,0.000507,0.003771,-0.010005,-0.002246,-0.007172,0.006409,0.003494,0.002634
Greek_Achaea:AHA-14,0.121791,0.146236,0.013199,-0.032623,0.017234,-0.009203,-0.001175,0.002308,0.001023,0.021868,-0.00065,0.001798,-0.004014,0.007707,-0.020765,0.012596,0.022296,0.003421,0.01345,-0.004877,-0.008111,-0.002473,0.003697,0.005061,-0.003353
Greek_Achaea:AHA-15,0.119514,0.144205,0.017348,-0.017119,0.023081,-0.004183,-0.003995,0.001385,0.010022,0.007107,0.001137,0.002 398,-0.002973,0.007432,-0.011672,-0.001458,0.003651,0.001394,0.002263,-0.005253,-0.007112,0.007296,-0.001109,0.003856,-0.000479
Greek_Achaea:AHA-16,0.120652,0.144205,0.010559,-0.029393,0.017849,-0.002231,0.00423,-0.002077,0.003477,0.014579,0.009743,0.001199,-0.001784,0.010459,-0.017915,-0.002254,0.007693,0.001394,0.006285,-0.003377,-0.006239,0.000989,0.002588,0.004097,0.000958
Greek_Achaea:AHA-17,0.127482,0.140143,0.012822,-0.028747,0.024004,-0.008367,0.003995,-0.004384,0.005113,0.015126,-0.002436,0.001049,-0.002081,0.010046,-0.017101,-0.003978,0.005998,-0.001774,0.003394,-0.002251,-0.006738,0,-0.002711,0.007109,-0.004431
Greek_Achaea:AHA-18,0.122929,0.142174,0.011314,-0.030685,0.01508,-0.007809,0.00799,0.004846,0.000818,0.011845,-0.002111,0.000749,0.005649,0.010459,-0.017101,-0.003845,0.010561,0.00114,0.007165,-0.007504,-0.004866,0.003462,0.004683,0.004579,-0.001437
Greek_Achaea:AHA-20,0.119514,0.14319,0.012068,-0.030039,0.019696,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.000692,0.000614,0.018953,0.002111,0.00045,0,-0.000138,-0.019137,-0.001326,0.010822,-0.000887,0.000754,-0.002876,-0.003619,0.002349,0.007395,-0.000843,-0.002036
Greek_Achaea:AHA-23,0.121791,0.147252,0.012068,-0.032623,0.022773,-0.007809,-0.00047,0.000692,0.005931,0.016583,0.002761,3e-04,-0.0055,0.004954,-0.014522,0.011005,0.019558,-0.00038,0.005656,0.00025,-0.01123,0.00507,0.009983,0.007591,-0.00455
Greek_Achaea:AHA-24,0.119514,0.146236,0.006788,-0.022287,0.017849,-0.003347,0.004465,0.000923,0.000409,0.017859,-0.008931,0.004046,-0.006987,0.009083,-0.008007,-0.003315,0.00678,-0.000887,0.003771,-0.004627,0.000125,0.004699,0.005423,-0.003374,0.003832
Greek_Achaea:AHA-25,0.114961,0.144205,0.018856,-0.023579,0.018465,-0.010598,0.004465,0.004615,-0.005113,0.01221,0.005521,0.005095,0.000149,0.0130 74,-0.018729,-0.018828,-0.002086,-0.000887,0.000377,-0.001501,-0.009234,0.001855,0.005176,0.004217,0.000599
Greek_Achaea:AHA-3,0.10927,0.149283,0.010936,-0.018734,0.023389,-0.002789,0.00893,-0.004846,0.006749,0.021868,-0.009581,0.000749,-0.002379,0.012111,-0.015879,-0.001989,0.004824,0.000507,0.003771,-0.006003,-0.005116,-0.002844,0.002711,-0.003133,-0.006227
Greek_Achaea:AHA-31,0.1161,0.141159,0.010936,-0.020995,0.01908,-0.004741,0.000235,-0.005769,0.001636,0.020775,0.003248,-0.001199,-0.002527,-0.00055,-0.017508,0.014585,0.015776,-0.005321,0.006159,0.001376,-0.012977,0.005317,-0.001109,0.002892,-0.003952
Greek_Achaea:AHA-33,0.119514,0.14319,0.007542,-0.028747,0.016003,-0.011156,0.00282,-0.002077,-0.004704,0.016401,0.00065,0.005845,-0.009514,0.003853,-0.025108,0.007558,0.02712,0.000127,0.004777,-0.002626,-0.004492,-0.005935,0.001602,0.001928,-0.008263
Greek_Achaea:AHA-34,0.1161,0.14319,0.010559,-0.023902,0.018773,-0.014781,0,0.000923,0.007976,0.013485,0.002273,-0.002098,-0.004162,0.004404,-0.016694,0.004773,0.016559,-0.000253,0.005782,0.004252,-0.003743,0.000618,0.010106,0.002289,-0.006826
Greek_Achaea:AHA-35,0.108132,0.146236,-0.000754,-0.023902,0.014156,-0.013387,0.004465,0.003231,0.004909,0.009476,0.000 65,0.003147,-0.002973,0.017203,-0.010858,-0.010475,-0.002608,0.00114,0.004148,-0.005378,-0.002246,-0.002473,0.006409,-0.004579,0.000239
Greek_Achaea:AHA-36,0.1161,0.147252,0.010936,-0.02261,0.011387,-0.008925,0.00752,-0.000462,-0.005113,0.012939,0.002111,0.004046,-0.001338,0.010322,-0.016558,-0.017369,-0.002477,-0.00114,0.006411,-0.008129,-0.008735,0.008656,0.004807,-0.001084,-0.001197
Greek_Achaea:AHA-37,0.1161,0.146236,0.010936,-0.033269,0.01908,-0.013945,-0.001645,0,0.009408,0.01877,-0.000162,-0.005095,0.000149,0.001514,-0.014386,-0.002387,0.000522,0.002787,0.001006,0.001251,-0.00574,0.002968,0.000739,0.001566,-0.003952
Greek_Achaea:AHA-5,0.118376,0.14319,0.007165,-0.031977,0.020619,-0.008088,0.00564,-0.001385,0.003068,0.016401,0,0.002398,-0.002379,0.007844,-0.017101,-0.00053,0.011343,0.001647,0.004399,-0.009254,-0.012977,-0.000495,0.003204,0.00482,-0.008502
Greek_Achaea:AHA-6,0.1161,0.147252,0.00528,-0.027455,0.020927,-0.007809,0.00376,0.002769,0.000205,0.020046,0.0051 96,0.005245,-0.004757,0.009771,-0.012215,-0.013524,-0.00665,0.000127,0.003897,-0.004877,-0.00836,0.001978,-0.002588,0.003133,-0.004071
Greek_Achaea:AHA-7,0.1161,0.145221,0.010936,-0.021318,0.019388,-0.009203,0.00799,0,0.00225,0.010934,0.006658,0.004 046,-0.000892,0.004129,-0.011808,0.005171,0.00665,-0.004054,0.00352,0.000625,-0.00861,0.003091,0.006655,0.002892,-0.007424
Greek_Achaea:AHA-8,0.110408,0.149283,0.006034,-0.027132,0.016003,-0.005299,0.006815,0.001154,0.0045,0.008018,0.00162 4,-0.001499,-0.003271,0.01445,-0.012893,-0.007292,-0.00352,-0.003294,0.007165,-0.01113,-0.00861,0.002844,0.003328,-0.005784,-0.001197
Greek_Achaea:AHA-9,0.118376,0.139128,0.010559,-0.022933,0.020004,-0.013387,0.000235,-0.000462,0.00859,0.010205,0.002436,0.000749,0.0044 6,-0.003303,-0.010858,0.0118,0.021253,0.00076,0.003897,0.000625 ,-0.006489,-0.002226,0.003821,0.008555,-0.003832
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-1,0.122929,0.149283,0.006411,-0.022933,0.027082,-0.016176,0.006815,-0.003,-0.003681,0.022233,0.001949,0.005095,-0.008176,0.004542,-0.015201,-0.005834,-0.002999,-0.001394,0.007919,-0.014757,-0.007612,-0.000866,0.005793,0.000361,-0.00491
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-10,0.124067,0.148267,0.008297,-0.033269,0.018465,-0.018407,0.002585,-0.000231,0.001023,0.010752,0.002598,-0.000599,-0.000149,0.006331,-0.008958,-0.000398,0.000652,0.000507,0.013952,-0.002001,-0.00574,-0.000742,0.002958,-0.001566,-0.00012
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-12,0.121791,0.142174,0.006411,-0.02907,0.022466,-0.012271,-0.00141,-0.001385,0.007158,0.01713,0.00065,0.001049,-0.000297,0.002202,-0.018051,0.012331,0.01695,0.001394,0.010307,-0.006753,-0.008984,0.005317,0.006779,0.004458,-0.004071
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-13,0.114961,0.138112,0.009428,-0.029716,0.020311,-0.015618,0.00141,-0.001154,0.00225,0.015126,0.000162,0.001049,0.0010 41,0.008533,-0.017101,0.001724,0.007171,0.001774,0.01169,-0.007754,-0.00861,0.001484,0.002342,0.00964,-0.004311
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-15,0.112685,0.145221,0.010559,-0.020026,0.018773,-0.006414,0.00564,-0.000923,-0.003477,0.007472,-0.001137,0.002997,-0.001189,0.015689,-0.017779,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.002534,0.008547,-0.006628,-0.007112,-0.004451,-0.003081,-0.006025,-0.002395
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-16,0.111547,0.140143,0.003771,-0.021318,0.018157,-0.008925,0.006815,-0.001615,-0.003068,0.015126,0.001786,0.001948,-0.001784,0.016652,-0.013572,-0.013922,-0.008345,0.002027,0.005279,-0.010005,-0.002246,-0.005564,-0.004683,-0.005302,-0.001197
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-17,0.117238,0.144205,0.006788,-0.025517,0.022466,-0.009761,0.00376,-0.005077,-0.000409,0.019681,0.004222,-0.001049,-0.003419,0.012386,-0.018594,-0.003845,0.012126,-0.000887,0.003268,-0.004752,-0.006613,-0.000371,0.005793,-0.004097,0.001796
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-19,0.121791,0.141159,0.008674,-0.023902,0.016926,-0.006136,0.009635,0.001846,-0.003068,0.01385,0.000812,0.001798,-0.000446,0.005643,-0.014386,0.000265,0.008475,0.000127,0.007668,0.000 875,-0.010731,0.004822,0.002711,0.00012,-0.000838
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-2,0.119514,0.138112,0.010182,-0.020995,0.01908,-0.009482,0.00047,-0.002308,0.000614,0.014761,0.001299,0.005095,-0.002825,0.003716,-0.015065,-0.001591,0.000913,0.004814,0.00352,-0.006628,-0.008735,-0.003215,0.0053,-0.003374,-0.00455
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-20,0.119514,0.144205,0.006411,-0.023256,0.022466,-0.011713,-0.000235,0.002308,0.006954,0.022415,0,0.001349,-0.00446,0.006468,-0.019001,0.001193,0.009909,-0.00038,0.005908,-0.008504,-0.012852,0.001855,-0.001725,0.001807,-0.001557
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-21,0.111547,0.137096,0.010559,-0.021641,0.020004,-0.012829,0.002585,0.002769,0.005113,0.019135,0.002 923,0.000599,-0.001189,0.006331,-0.015336,-0.002784,0.008345,0.000887,0.003142,0.000875,-0.001622,-0.005935,0.002095,0.008314,0.001916
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-3,0.118376,0.14319,0.00528,-0.025194,0.018773,-0.006693,0.00611,0.005769,-0.001227,0.008201,0.002436,-0.00015,-0.001487,0.009909,-0.018051,-0.005038,0.007302,-0.000507,0.003645,-0.003752,-0.009358,-0.00371,-0.001109,0.001446,0.005868
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-6,0.120652,0.145221,0.00528,-0.024225,0.023697,-0.012829,-0.000705,0.000462,-0.00225,0.016948,0.005684,0.002847,-0.009366,0.014313,-0.018187,-0.012198,-0.009257,-0.00228,0.00729,-0.012506,-0.007736,0.001237,-0.002095,0.002169,0.002634
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-8,0.114961,0.14319,0.00528,-0.022933,0.017234,-0.011435,0.00188,-0.000462,-0.00409,0.010752,-0.001786,0.004496,0.003271,0.006468,-0.017644,-0.003315,0.005085,0.003294,0.002388,-0.008754,-0.009858,-0.001978,0.001356,-0.001566,-0.001796
Greek_Arcadia:ARKA-9,0.108132,0.152329,0.00792,-0.021964,0.024928,-0.011156,0.0047,0.002308,-0.00634,0.014943,0.002923,0.002248,-0.002081,0.009634,-0.016965,-0.00411,0.011213,0.003801,0.011187,0.002626,-0.002246,0.003586,-0.002095,-0.004699,0.002036
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-1,0.120652,0.146236,0.009428,-0.031654,0.01231,-0.01004,-0.00188,0.002077,0.00225,0.011663,-0.000487,-0.002098,0.003122,0.006744,-0.017915,-0.005038,0.012647,0,0.010307,-0.003377,-0.009358,-0.001607,0.004067,0,0.002754
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-11,0.113823,0.149283,0.009051,-0.027455,0.024004,-0.011156,-0.00094,-0.002308,-0.001023,0.014032,0.000325,0.007643,-0.006244,0.002615,-0.011401,0.002254,0.010952,-0.00076,0.001131,-0.006253,-0.010731,-0.000989,0.002342,-0.001084,0.001437
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-18,0.122929,0.144205,-0.001131,-0.02907,0.016311,-0.01255,0,0.000231,0.002659,0.017677,0.000812,0.00 045,0.000892,0.010046,-0.013572,-0.012729,-0.005607,0.002787,0.007668,-0.003502,-0.004118,-0.005935,-0.002588,0.001084,-0.002874
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-19,0.121791,0.133034,0.004148,-0.023902,0.016926,-0.001394,0.002115,-0.001846,-0.006545,0.009294,0.008282,-0.00045,0.001784,0.001514,-0.017508,0.012198,0.017863,0.005321,0.008422,-0.007128,-0.007986,0.000989,-0.003451,0.00735,-0.008382
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-2,0.117238,0.14319,0.010182,-0.023579,0.022773,-0.010598,-0.00235,0.000923,-0.003681,0.01713,0,0.006894,-0.007433,0.009496,-0.016829,-0.000133,0.008475,0.005194,0.002011,-0.008629,-0.00287,-0.00272,0.001602,-0.002048,0.004071

Greek_Argolis:ARGO-21,0.125205,0.153345,0.007542,-0.020672,0.022466,-0.004183,0.00235,-0.002538,0.001432,0.019864,0.001137,0.002548,-0.00773,0.018717,-0.014522,-0.010475,-0.002477,0.003801,0.008422,-0.006378,-0.010232,0.003091,0.004314,-0.007591,-0.007305
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-24,0.117238,0.140143,0.007542,-0.022287,0.025851,-0.005857,0.00376,0.000692,-0.002045,0.013121,0.001949,-0.001049,0.001487,0.01101,-0.019951,-0.002121,0.010952,0.003294,0.002263,-0.010005,-0.003369,0.002968,0,-0.009158,-0.001796
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-25,0.12862,0.140143,0.015085,-0.019057,0.020619,-0.011435,0.011281,-0.001385,-0.001636,0.015855,-0.00065,0.004796,-0.010406,0.006744,-0.016965,0.005834,0.026468,0.001267,0.004777,-0.002126,-0.009109,0.001731,0.0053,0.003856,-0.011496
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-26,0.118376,0.146236,0.004903,-0.023256,0.018465,-0.010319,-0.001645,-0.004154,-0.00409,0.014943,0.004384,0.000899,-0.00446,0.005367,-0.017101,-0.001989,0.007302,-0.003041,0.006159,-0.004627,-0.014599,0.001237,0.005053,-0.003253,0.000958
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-3,0.113823,0.14319,0.012445,-0.031331,0.017234,-0.004462,0.00564,0.004846,0.002863,0.017312,0.0081 19,0.001948,-0.002825,0.009358,-0.013708,-0.013922,-0.004955,-0.000887,0.005782,-0.006628,-0.004492,-0.000618,0.002095,0.001807,-0.001078
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-36,0.121791,0.14319,0.004525,-0.029716,0.010771,-0.014223,-0.00329,-0.003461,-0.002659,0.020228,0.004384,0.002698,-0.006541,0.005505,-0.019679,0,0.004955,0.002534,0.003268,-0.011255,-0.009982,0.005441,0.000123,0.008555,-0.007305
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-4,0.124067,0.149283,0.008297,-0.025194,0.024312,-0.016455,0.00047,-0.003692,-0.002863,0.016766,0.004709,0.007343,-0.006987,-0.001376,-0.011536,-0.001061,0.01356,0.001774,0.006159,-0.00075,-0.007237,0.000618,-0.000123,0.003253,-0.002515
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6,0.113823,0.142174,0.010182,-0.0323,0.020619,-0.005299,-0.000705,0.000231,0.007158,0.020593,0.00747,0.0010 49,0.000297,0.00234,-0.016558,-0.004243,0.008084,0.002534,0.005782,-0.002001,-0.008111,0.002968,0.001972,0.004217,-0.007065
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7,0.113823,0.141159,-0.000754,-0.024871,0.018465,-0.01004,0.00235,-0.004846,0.004295,0.022233,0.001786,0.001199,-0.001784,0.004679,-0.016015,-0.004243,0.008605,-0.000507,0.009302,-0.006128,-0.010107,0.001731,0.002588,-0.003012,-0.002036
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-8,0.122929,0.139128,0.003394,-0.030039,0.016311,-0.010598,0.00188,-0.002308,-0.001023,0.022233,0.002273,0.002398,-0.001487,0.006881,-0.013165,-0.000398,0.002868,-0.0019,0.006536,-0.006753,-0.01123,0.004575,0.003574,0.001807,-0.002155
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-9,0.121791,0.144205,0.010936,-0.030039,0.017849,-0.009203,0.004935,-0.000231,-0.005931,0.014579,-0.001137,0.002698,-0.008028,0.016239,-0.016422,-0.009414,-0.010561,0.000887,0.007919,-0.003752,-0.009858,-0.004946,-0.001725,-0.004217,-0.001916
Greek_Cappadocia:654,0.104717,0.142174,-0.047517,-0.065246,-0.013849,-0.019243,-0.007755,-0.000692,-0.005931,0.015126,0.005359,0.003597,0.00223,0.0060 55,-0.004614,-0.003978,-0.008214,0.00152,0.009427,-0.009004,0.002246,0.009274,-0.008504,0.000843,0.005149
Greek_Cappadocia:655,0.118376,0.14319,-0.041106,-0.071383,-0.016003,-0.013108,0.003055,-0.006,-0.021884,0.008747,0.003248,0.007493,0,0.009771,-0.012893,-0.004773,0.007823,0.003674,0.007542,-0.00025,0.012353,0.000371,-0.006532,-0.00723,-0.002155
Greek_Cappadocia:656,0.108132,0.141159,-0.047894,-0.056525,-0.025851,-0.014223,0.005875,-0.004615,-0.02352,0.004556,0.005684,0.008692,0.001635,0.0042 66,-0.008958,0.000265,0.008475,0.003167,0.004902,0.003 252,0.005366,0.008656,-0.003944,0.001084,0.008502
Greek_Cappadocia:657,0.114961,0.137096,-0.039598,-0.051034,-0.010771,-0.011713,0.00329,0.000462,-0.012885,0.011481,0.006171,-0.002997,0.001487,0.000275,-0.016694,-0.003713,0.00665,0.004687,0.001006,-0.006753,0.004866,0.00136,-0.003328,-0.010724,0.006826
Greek_Cappadocia:658,0.1161,0.149283,-0.040729,-0.063954,-0.014156,-0.028168,0.007285,0.000231,-0.024134,0.009659,0.006171,0.005545,-0.00446,0.015001,-0.018865,-0.0118,-0.004433,0.006081,0.008296,-0.011005,-0.006863,-0.003091,0.000493,0.002169,-0.002515
Greek_Cappadocia:659,0.1161,0.137096,-0.037712,-0.056525,-0.008309,-0.017012,0.00282,-0.006692,-0.025565,0.01057,-0.005196,0.003447,-0.013677,0.011698,-0.00285,-0.017634,-0.008475,-0.000507,-0.005154,-0.003252,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002711,-0.002169,0.004071
Greek_Cappadocia:660,0.105855,0.133034,-0.045254,-0.067507,-0.017234,-0.027331,0.00564,-0.008307,-0.013294,0.007289,0,-0.00015,-0.003717,0.006331,-0.0019,-0.007955,-0.000261,0.003801,0.00729,0.006753,-0.007487,0.006306,-0.000986,0.005302,-0.000599
Greek_Cappadocia:661,0.110408,0.14319,-0.038089,-0.062016,-0.011387,-0.013387,0.004465,-0.005769,-0.016157,0.01057,-0.003573,-3e-04,-0.00892,-0.000963,-0.00665,-0.00411,0.002868,0.002027,0.012947,-0.002876,-0.000998,0.008037,-0.003451,0.005181,-0.000599
Greek_Cappadocia:662,0.108132,0.138112,-0.034695,-0.062339,-0.018773,-0.022311,0.002115,-0.003461,-0.017385,0.010205,0.008769,0.000599,-0.000446,0.007019,-0.013979,-0.004243,-0.006258,-0.00228,0.005531,-0.004502,-0.000499,0.004822,-0.002218,-0.004097,0.005389
Greek_Cappadocia:663,0.108132,0.150298,-0.041106,-0.05491,-0.016618,-0.017291,0.000235,-0.003692,-0.02577,0.006014,0.004547,0.006145,-0.002081,0.000275,-0.009772,0.00053,0.00678,0.007095,0.007919,-0.011631,-0.000749,0.005935,-0.005669,0.003374,-0.00467
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2501,0.111547,0.149283,-0.038466,-0.068153,-0.01908,-0.018686,0.00987,-0.003692,-0.024134,0.010023,0.008444,0.007044,-0.008622,0.003441,-0.006243,-0.000265,0.001043,0.00228,0.006788,-0.004377,0.000624,0.007543,-0.001356,-0.00482,-0.002395
Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2502,0.110408,0.142174,-0.040729,-0.053941,-0.008309,-0.018407,-0.00047,-0.002769,-0.013908,0.011299,-0.001949,0.006444,-0.00892,0.004817,-0.012622,0.004641,0.014212,0.008108,0.006788,0.000 375,0.007986,0.008161,0.001109,0.001566,-0.000479

----------


## matadworf

Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2503,0.108132,0.141159,-0.032432,-0.055556,-0.012618,-0.023148,0,-0.002538,-0.020861,0.013303,0.009581,0.001349,-0.003122,0.006744,-0.014251,-0.001193,0.01369,-0.002914,-0.000126,-0.003877,-0.001248,-0.001731,-0.000616,0.002169,0.000718
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11,0.125205,0.1431 9,0.018102,-0.010013,0.021235,-0.00251,0.004465,0.002769,-0.004295,0.01057,0.002598,3e-04,-0.002379,0.006606,-0.012079,-0.001326,0.008605,0.00114,0.010182,-0.007128,-0.008735,0.001731,0.001602,0.000843,0.005149
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE34,0.121791,0.1452 21,0.020742,-0.007429,0.026159,-0.000558,-0.000235,-0.004154,0.006136,0.005103,0,-0.002398,0.003122,0.004129,-0.009365,0.01432,0.026077,-0.004941,0.005028,-0.003126,-0.00861,-0.004451,0.005793,0.007471,-0.008502
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE59,0.120652,0.1391 28,0.014708,-0.007106,0.015387,-0.008088,0.00282,0.000692,0.007567,0.010205,0.0058 46,0.00015,0.009217,0.011147,-0.010858,0.007292,0.001304,-0.002154,-0.002388,-0.010505,-0.012728,-0.005193,0.006286,0.005543,0.003113
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE8,0.121791,0.14115 9,0.024513,-0.008075,0.021235,0.003626,0.002585,0.002308,-0.00225,0.008747,0.00747,-3e-04,0.001487,0.005643,-0.013029,0.008486,0.019297,0.000253,0.002388,-0.005002,-0.002496,0.005564,0.001725,0.000482,-0.000718
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP10,0.113823,0. 138112,0.00528,-0.015181,0.018465,-0.005299,0.00329,0.000231,0,0.004374,0.002436,0.00 3147,-0.005649,0.005092,-0.017779,-0.007955,0.023078,-0.005321,0.011061,-0.002501,-0.004991,0.003833,-0.001725,0.004699,-0.003233
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP11,0.121791,0. 145221,0.014331,-0.014858,0.020311,-0.005857,0.00846,0.004846,0.00225,0.011116,-0.000974,0.002548,-0.008622,0.004954,-0.017236,-0.008353,0.001565,-0.000887,0.003017,-0.006503,-0.005865,0.003957,0.007888,0.00241,0
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP12,0.126344,0. 13405,0.013199,-0.012274,0.010771,-0.008925,0.00141,-0.002077,0.000818,0.000911,0,0.001798,0.006392,0.0 03165,-0.015744,-0.006762,0.012256,-0.003167,0.010936,0.002376,-0.008984,0.003215,0.002465,-0.004338,0.009101
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP14,0.1161,0.14 5221,0.012822,-0.021641,0.025543,-0.008925,-0.003995,-0.004615,0.007976,0.022415,0.000487,0.001948,0.001 338,0.007844,-0.012079,0.000796,0.00691,0.00076,0.004022,-0.005253,-0.004243,0.000495,0.001602,0.008555,-0.008263
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP15,0.120652,0. 141159,0.021496,-0.018411,0.022158,0.00753,-0.00282,0,-0.012271,0.021686,-0.004222,0.007343,-0.007136,0.001239,-0.028637,0.009546,0.004563,-0.002407,-0.001131,-0.008129,-0.007362,-0.009027,0.008011,-0.00253,-0.002395
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP16,0.108132,0. 145221,0.01961,-0.030039,0.015387,-0.005578,0.004465,0.002538,-0.002045,0.009112,0.009094,0.000899,-0.008028,0.012524,-0.023208,-0.013922,-0.002086,0.002027,0.002765,-0.007128,-0.010606,-0.001113,0.003821,0.002771,0.003832
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP17,0.111547,0. 144205,0.022627,-0.012274,0.026466,-0.004183,0.003995,-0.002077,-0.002045,0.008201,-0.001949,-0.006744,0.008622,0.00812,-0.018729,0.001193,0.009909,0.005068,0.010684,-0.00075,-0.006239,0.010387,-0.001232,-0.001807,-0.007784
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP18,0.117238,0. 147252,0.012068,-0.018411,0.016926,-0.005578,-0.003995,0.000462,0.009613,0.021139,0.004222,0.005 095,0.001487,0.004954,-0.014658,-0.001326,0.00691,-0.004687,0.004022,-0.002501,-0.013851,0.004822,0.004067,-0.005663,-0.000958
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP3,0.119514,0.1 39128,0.019987,-0.020026,0.025235,-0.008646,0.00376,0.000923,0.003068,0.013668,0.0034 1,0.003447,0.005352,0.017065,-0.018322,0.00358,0.005867,0.000887,-0.003771,-0.000125,-0.007861,0.008656,-0.000863,-0.000843,0.001078
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP4,0.120652,0.1 4319,0.009805,-0.030039,0.018465,-0.005299,0.002115,-0.003461,0.002659,0.018041,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.005203,0.005918,-0.020629,0.00305,0.00678,0.008361,0.001634,0.00062 5,-0.010107,-0.00136,0.00456,-0.000241,0.000359
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP5,0.120652,0.1 40143,0.004148,-0.018411,0.028313,-0.00251,-0.000705,-0.003692,-0.000614,0.01549,-0.001786,-0.002248,-0.009068,0.007569,-0.022937,-0.004641,0.009779,0.000887,0.011313,0.001251,-0.012353,0.004204,0.005793,0.002048,0.000718
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP8,0.122929,0.1 48267,0.01961,-0.01615,0.022158,0.002231,0.001175,0.004154,-0.005727,0.005467,-0.001949,0.007793,-0.005649,0.007019,-0.010315,-0.001856,0.007432,0.00038,0.006411,-0.008754,0,-0.002349,0.000863,-0.002651,0.001557
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GREEKGRALPOP9,0.121791,0.1 42174,0.015085,-0.020026,0.028621,-0.001952,0.007755,0.001154,0.00409,0.019135,-0.005359,0.005095,-0.009812,0.006055,-0.022665,-0.011403,0.018515,0.005321,0.00993,0.002751,-0.008111,0.002226,0.004437,-0.00735,-0.005389
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-14,0.118376,0.14319,0.013576,-0.031654,0.020004,-0.009761,0,-0.003,-0.001023,0.019499,-0.000974,0.007493,-0.008325,0.002202,-0.020222,0.005569,0.028033,-0.002027,0.007165,-0.007629,-0.009608,-0.006306,0.001849,0.005181,0.001676
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-18,0.120652,0.153345,0.005657,-0.032623,0.018465,-0.008088,0.000705,-0.008538,-0.007567,0.019499,0.002923,0.000749,-0.002379,0.005918,-0.022122,-0.00411,0.004824,0.006714,0.01081,-0.010755,-0.018343,0.002102,0.005423,0.008435,0.002155
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-19,0.1161,0.146236,0.008674,-0.028424,0.030775,-0.012271,0.00188,0.003692,0.000818,0.016219,0.0021 11,0.002548,-0.004906,0.013625,-0.013165,-0.004641,0.002477,0.001267,0.011941,-0.004252,-0.011854,0.000742,0.001109,0.000964,-0.00934
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-2,0.114961,0.150298,0.004525,-0.01938,0.011387,-0.005857,0.008225,-0.003461,-0.005727,0.015672,-0.002598,0.004046,-0.005203,0.008395,-0.018594,-0.006895,0.013038,-0.004054,0.007668,-0.011005,-0.012104,-0.007666,0.000986,0.002771,0.001557
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-20,0.124067,0.140143,0.004903,-0.015181,0.023389,-0.008925,-0.000705,0.001385,-0.002863,0.018041,0.004222,-0.001499,0.000892,0.000275,-0.017372,-0.00053,0.020992,-0.0019,0.006913,-0.007379,-0.01123,-0.002226,-0.000616,0.008194,-0.002395

Greek_Corinthia:KOR-21,0.118376,0.151314,-0.001131,-0.030039,0.016618,-0.01004,0.002585,0.005077,-0.002659,0.012574,0.007307,0.005245,-0.002527,0.010597,-0.013572,-0.011403,-0.014733,0.003167,0.01081,-0.006878,-0.008859,-0.00136,0.003821,-0.003976,0.007664
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-23,0.119514,0.144205,0.00528,-0.023902,0.014772,-0.010598,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.000818,0.015126,0.005846,-0.001649,0.000149,0.00867,-0.014522,0.001458,0.012256,0.000887,0.008673,-0.006128,-0.000749,0.000371,0.005669,0.001687,0.008382
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-26,0.1161,0.141159,0.010559,-0.027778,0.018773,-0.010598,-0.003525,-0.002769,0.001636,0.016219,0.001299,0.001948,-0.001487,0.009771,-0.018322,-0.004773,0.007041,0.000887,0.004902,-0.003627,-0.003619,0.00371,0.002218,0,-0.003952
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-27,0.10927,0.135065,-0.010182,-0.021964,0.01508,-0.001394,0.001645,0.002308,0.005522,0.019135,0.001 461,-0.001049,0.000743,0.012799,-0.013572,-0.009414,-0.01343,0.000253,0.010433,-0.002501,-0.006738,0,-0.005176,-0.004579,-0.002515
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-42,0.119514,0.14319,0.007165,-0.034238,0.017849,-0.007251,-0.000235,-0.001615,0.002659,0.013668,0.001137,0.003747,0.002 23,0.004266,-0.016151,-0.005967,0.000913,0.00266,0.011313,-0.007754,0.002246,-0.001978,0.005669,0.008555,-0.001197
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-43,0.118376,0.146236,0.006788,-0.025517,0.020311,-0.007809,-0.00094,-0.001154,-0.001023,0.019135,0.000487,0.001798,-0.005352,0.007569,-0.014794,0.002387,0.026468,-0.002914,0.010559,-0.002751,-0.006863,-0.006306,0.005546,0.000843,-0.011017
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-5,0.121791,0.142174,0.012068,-0.0323,0.017849,-0.015618,0.00658,0.001154,0.005931,0.014032,0.0021 11,0.002698,-0.004906,-0.000963,-0.015744,0.012596,0.023339,-0.00076,0.00817,-0.002376,-0.010981,0.008656,-0.001356,0.002771,-0.001557
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-62,0.120652,0.148267,0.009428,-0.02584,0.020311,-0.007251,0.002585,0.001846,0.005522,0.022233,0.002 761,0.002698,-0.003122,0.008395,-0.014522,-0.004906,0.00665,0.00228,-0.000503,-0.006128,-0.003993,0.00371,0.00037,0.005422,0.002874
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-67,0.1161,0.145221,0.012445,-0.022287,0.014464,-0.00753,0.00611,0.000692,0.00409,0.015308,-0.002761,-0.002847,-0.005946,0.002064,-0.011943,0.003978,0.012517,-0.001774,0.001634,-0.006628,-0.009733,0.000124,0.003821,-0.001205,-0.000239
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-68,0.119514,0.142174,0.003394,-0.020026,0.021235,-0.00502,0.00658,0.000923,-0.001841,0.009294,0.001137,0.009142,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.01045,0.004375,0.026598,0.000253,0.00176,0.00325 2,-0.002745,0.000371,-0.000739,0.00494,-0.005987
Greek_Corinthia:KOR-74,0.122929,0.150298,0.009805,-0.029393,0.025235,-0.012829,0,-0.000923,0.007976,0.022415,-0.001461,0.002098,-0.005054,0.007432,-0.015336,-0.003315,0.010952,-0.002914,0.005908,-0.001126,-0.010606,0.000371,0.010353,0.008555,-0.004071
Greek_Crete:730,0.111547,0.145221,-0.029038,-0.05168,0.008617,-0.018128,0.004465,0.003,0.004704,0.027153,0.003573 ,-0.002548,-0.004608,0.009909,-0.015608,-0.006629,0.011735,-0.00152,0.006285,0,-0.009358,0.001607,-0.002958,0.000361,-0.001197
Greek_Crete:731,0.101303,0.147252,-0.011314,-0.040052,0.001231,-0.014781,-0.00094,-0.000923,-0.009613,0.021868,0.006983,0.004346,0.001635,0.010 046,-0.012893,-0.002519,-0.000913,-0.005321,0.00088,-0.007629,-0.000374,-0.0115,0.002958,-0.000602,-0.002275
Greek_Crete:732,0.10927,0.145221,-0.023004,-0.041344,0.01231,-0.015618,0.000235,-0.005538,0.001841,0.014032,-0.005521,0.004196,-0.007879,0.003991,-0.014251,0.001193,0.015776,0.003421,-0.001634,-0.004752,-0.009234,0.000247,0.004807,0.006507,-0.008023
Greek_Crete:733,0.1161,0.141159,-0.011691,-0.03876,0.011387,-0.021475,-0.003055,0.002538,0.002454,0.006925,0.006333,0.002 098,-0.000149,0.007019,-0.016151,-0.008221,-0.008214,0.00076,-0.00352,-0.006503,-0.000624,-0.000989,-0.001232,0.006386,0.001796
Greek_Crete:734,0.110408,0.148267,-0.023759,-0.043928,0.006155,-0.011435,0.000235,-0.003692,0.00225,0.012574,-0.007632,0.004646,-0.002825,0.003578,-0.011536,-0.006497,0.001956,0.008488,0.00817,-0.006628,0.001497,0.011994,0.001972,-0.003615,0.000599
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Greek_Crete:736,0.094473,0.144205,-0.015462,-0.03876,0.008925,-0.013387,0.00893,-0.009923,-0.012271,0.017677,-0.000812,0.006145,-0.000149,0.00055,-0.006107,0.004508,0.014994,-0.00152,0.013952,-0.003877,-0.004991,0.009521,0.004067,0.000964,-0.007544
Greek_Crete:737,0.10927,0.148267,-0.015839,-0.05491,0.007078,-0.018965,0.002585,-0.011076,-0.008385,0.016948,0.005521,0.001499,0.002379,-0.00523,-0.013165,-0.007292,0.009518,0.004561,0.004022,-0.008754,-0.004492,-0.001237,0.00037,0.003374,-0.014969
Greek_Crete:738,0.105855,0.147252,-0.013199,-0.047158,0.010771,-0.013108,0.00564,-0.007154,-0.002863,0.008018,-0.003248,-0.000749,-0.004906,0.009358,-0.013843,-0.011933,0.004172,0.002407,0.005028,-0.003502,-0.007237,-0.007296,0,0.001084,-0.008023
Greek_Crete:739,0.10927,0.144205,-0.007165,-0.04522,0.006155,-0.010598,-0.00235,-0.003461,0.0045,0.014579,0.005846,0.004496,-0.008176,0.007569,-0.006515,0.007955,0.000913,0.00076,0.012318,0.0046 27,-0.005116,-0.004204,-0.002342,0.011568,-0.003592
Greek_Crete:740,0.101303,0.148267,-0.006411,-0.046512,0.011387,-0.02259,0.003525,0.004154,-0.00225,0.006196,-0.001461,0.003447,-0.006541,-0.003303,-0.018594,0,0.016037,0.002154,0.009553,-0.008504,-0.006114,-0.009892,0.004437,0.001084,-0.002754
Greek_Crete:741,0.101303,0.153345,-0.020365,-0.048773,0.007386,-0.011435,0.003995,-0.010384,0.002659,0.00893,0.005034,0.006744,-0.003419,0.005092,-0.009093,-0.007955,-0.005737,0.001267,-0.006285,-0.001,-0.001373,0.007048,-0.00037,0.004338,-0.001437
Greek_Crete:742,0.114961,0.144205,-0.009428,-0.040375,0.003693,-0.024542,0.007285,0.000692,-0.00409,0.017495,0.003085,0.001049,0.00223,0.00055 ,-0.008958,-0.009281,0,0.007095,0.005531,-0.001126,-0.010357,0.001607,-0.013188,-0.003856,-0.000239
Greek_Crete:743,0.108132,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.04199,0.003693,-0.017012,0.00282,-0.006231,-0.010635,0.011116,0.004709,0.002398,-0.006095,0.011147,-0.004886,-0.000398,-0.000652,0.002914,0.007542,-0.00025,-0.001996,0.00272,-0.000863,0.001807,0.003832
Greek_Crete:744,0.108132,0.146236,-0.009428,-0.053941,0.005847,-0.019243,0.00094,-0.001846,-0.002659,0.013121,0.005846,0.005545,-0.001784,0.009358,-0.008415,-0.008353,-0.012256,0.003041,-0.004274,-0.007128,-0.015597,0.001731,0.001849,-0.001566,-0.005987
Greek_Crete:745,0.112685,0.152329,-0.015839,-0.035207,0.016311,-0.016455,0.00564,-0.009461,-0.008181,0.008018,0.000974,0.003897,0.002973,0.005 367,-0.010179,0.00411,0.020731,0.00038,-0.001131,0.001751,-0.004367,0.000742,0.005053,0.005422,0.000599
Greek_Crete:746,0.108132,0.145221,-0.015462,-0.049742,0.00677,-0.02761,-0.00423,-0.001154,0.004295,0.009841,0.004709,0.005545,-0.001784,0.003441,-0.005157,0.002254,0.020731,0.006714,0.007039,0.009 379,-0.006489,-0.000866,0.001232,0.000843,-0.002634
Greek_Crete:747,0.105855,0.13405,-0.021496,-0.050065,0.000615,-0.017012,0.003055,-0.002769,-0.013294,0.011663,-0.002598,-0.004796,0.000297,0.002202,-0.011943,0.006497,0.00678,0.006714,0.010307,-0.001751,0.000873,0.002844,0.007888,-0.003374,-0.006945
Greek_Crete:748,0.105855,0.151314,-0.008297,-0.04522,0.007386,-0.01004,0.00235,0.002077,-0.002045,0.007654,0.003897,-0.006444,-0.005649,0.004679,-0.012486,0.008751,0.009388,-0.00228,0.004902,-0.012506,-0.009608,0.001237,0.005423,0.010483,0.007903
Greek_Crete:749,0.112685,0.146236,-0.003017,-0.041021,0.016311,-0.012829,0.00658,-0.003231,-0.006954,0.011481,-0.001949,0.001049,0.001189,0.010184,-0.019137,0.002652,0.008475,-0.002154,-0.000503,-0.002376,-0.006988,0.003091,-0.000986,0.004217,-0.000838
Greek_Crete:750,0.108132,0.148267,-0.018102,-0.059109,-0.00277,-0.011156,-0.000705,0.001385,-0.007567,0.019864,0.005196,0.001049,-0.008028,-0.001789,-0.006379,0.000265,0.003912,0.006334,0.007668,0.000 125,-0.003244,-0.004081,0.008258,0.016749,0.000958
Greek_Crete:751,0.106994,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.052003,0.000615,-0.015618,-0.0047,-0.004615,0.000409,0.014397,0.003248,-0.00015,0.005054,0.002202,-0.007872,-0.012729,-0.008605,0.000253,0.003645,0.001251,-0.001373,-0.001607,0.000986,0.001325,0.000479
Greek_Crete:752,0.10927,0.148267,-0.014331,-0.047481,0.000615,-0.017849,-0.000235,0.003692,0.006136,0.01549,-0.000487,-0.002098,0.001041,0.007294,-0.005565,-0.01432,0.002999,-0.004561,0.001131,-0.004127,-0.000873,0.001855,0.003328,-0.005061,-0.001676
Greek_Crete:753,0.104717,0.137096,-0.02225,-0.044251,0.007078,-0.011713,0,0.001615,-0.004909,0.014761,0.000812,0.005995,-0.001338,0.012386,-0.009636,-0.012331,-0.002868,0.003547,0.007039,-0.009755,0.001123,0.001855,-0.003451,0.000723,-0.003473

----------


## matadworf

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Greek_Crete:755,0.108132,0.149283,-0.016216,-0.036176,0.006463,-0.014502,0.003055,-0.004615,-0.001432,0.012939,0.009256,0.010341,0.001487,0.002 615,-0.0038,-0.001989,0.011213,0.005954,0.003394,-0.005002,-0.000873,0.001237,0.002711,-0.002169,0.002036
Greek_Crete:756,0.102441,0.147252,-0.012445,-0.046512,0.007694,-0.011713,-0.0047,-0.002077,0.001432,0.018041,0.009256,0.002847,-0.006392,-0.003441,-0.018458,0.003845,0.01017,-0.001774,0.006285,0.001251,-0.000499,0.001484,-0.003821,0.002048,-0.007664
Greek_Crete:757,0.118376,0.138112,-0.018102,-0.033915,0.00277,-0.009203,0.006815,-0.002077,0.002863,0.021322,-0.000162,0.002398,0.001784,-0.001239,-0.011672,0.005569,0.015776,0.006588,0.00993,-0.003377,-0.007362,0.002597,0.008258,0.004458,-0.003473
Greek_Crete:758,0.111547,0.145221,-0.003394,-0.052003,-0.007078,-0.01004,0.00423,-0.001846,0.000205,0.014397,0.00747,-0.002698,-0.003122,0.007019,-0.00855,-0.003978,-0.000261,0.004814,0.007668,-0.012506,-0.001248,0.009521,-0.016022,-0.003494,-0.00012
Greek_Crete:759,0.118376,0.141159,-0.003771,-0.044574,0.010463,-0.021475,0.00141,0.001846,-0.001841,0.012392,-0.004384,0.000749,-0.003271,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.00053,0.007823,0.007221,0.011941,0.0002 5,-0.004367,-0.002473,0.00949,0.013737,-0.008382
Greek_Crete:760,0.112685,0.142174,-0.027153,-0.048127,-0.000308,-0.013108,0.00376,-0.011999,-0.010226,0.009659,0.000487,0.002847,-0.011001,0.014588,-0.015336,-0.003845,0.007041,-0.001774,0.000628,-0.00075,-0.007362,0.007172,-0.0053,-0.004579,0.00467
Greek_Crete:761,0.108132,0.137096,-0.01961,-0.04845,0.001846,-0.01506,0.016921,-0.006,0.005522,0.007836,0.00747,-0.004346,-0.007284,0.002615,-0.007872,0.015513,0.020992,0.00076,-0.001634,0.000875,-0.004492,0.000371,0.007765,0.011568,-0.002634
Greek_Crete:762,0.110408,0.147252,-0.02225,-0.052003,0.00277,-0.020638,0.00517,-0.006461,-0.001432,0.01221,0.016239,0.003597,-0.004608,0.015276,-0.006515,-0.010475,0.001173,0.002154,0.00352,-0.005127,-0.000374,0.000742,-0.001972,0.003976,-0.003712
Greek_Crete:763,0.108132,0.151314,-0.018479,-0.047158,0.013541,-0.022032,0.008695,-0.001846,0.008795,0.007107,0.002761,0.006744,0.004 757,0,-0.014522,-0.004375,-0.003
Greek_Crete:764,0.111547,0.144205,-0.021119,-0.054264,0.007694,-0.014502,-0.006345,-0.004154,0.000205,0.018406,0.004709,-0.001049,-0.007433,-0.000413,-0.017236,-0.000663,0.004824,0.003294,0.009804,-0.010255,-0.005116,-0.00371,-0.000986,0.003615,-0.002634
Greek_Crete:765,0.104717,0.150298,-0.023004,-0.039083,0.016926,-0.02008,0.013396,0.000923,-0.008385,0.010934,0.002436,0.007943,0.001933,-0.001239,-0.005157,0.008353,0.015385,-0.00114,0.004525,0.00025,-0.008859,-0.003215,-0.002711,-0.00012,-0.00012
Greek_Crete:766,0.101303,0.150298,-0.020742,-0.046835,0.005847,-0.019801,0.010575,0.003461,-0.0045,0.018041,0.003735,0.007643,-0.001041,0.001514,-0.008279,-0.002121,0.010952,-0.000507,0.00352,-0.001126,-0.005615,-0.014467,0.000616,0.002289,0.007305
Greek_Crete:767,0.10927,0.142174,-0.01961,-0.042959,0.016618,-0.026216,0.003995,-0.005077,-0.003272,0.008018,0.004222,-0.004046,0.007284,-0.002477,-0.013979,0.007558,0.019427,0.002914,0.009427,-0.00988,-0.003119,0.00371,0.005053,-0.001566,-0.002515
Greek_Crete:768,0.108132,0.145221,-0.029793,-0.045866,0.005232,-0.018407,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.001636,0.005832,-0.008607,0.002997,-0.007879,-0.004679,-0.010179,0.008353,0.016689,0.002154,0.004525,-0.006753,0.004866,0.002473,0.00037,0.010242,0.0014 37
Greek_Crete:769,0.103579,0.156392,-0.019233,-0.038114,-0.00277,-0.010877,0.00047,-0.000692,-0.002045,0.007836,0.004222,3e-04,0.003568,0.009634,-0.013301,-0.005701,0.000782,0.000253,-0.004399,-0.014007,0.000873,-0.003215,-0.007148,-0.002048,0.002874
Greek_Crete:770,0.110408,0.145221,-0.018856,-0.038114,0.005232,-0.005857,-0.00235,-0.000231,-0.005318,0.014397,0.001299,0.005845,-0.001933,0.011147,-0.012893,-0.01538,-0.004955,-0.003674,-0.000126,-0.005378,-0.00287,0.006183,0.011709,-0.002651,0.007305
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Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1,0.10927,0.140143,-0.015085,-0.049742,0.016618,-0.025937,0.001175,-0.001385,0.00225,0.018588,0.003573,0.001049,0.0022 3,-0.001376,-0.014522,0.00769,0.018384,0.0019,0.004148,5e-04,-0.004243,-0.001607,-0.008011,0.001325,-0.002515
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10,0.111547,0.146236,-0.012445,-0.043605,0.008617,-0.014223,-0.00094,-0.001385,0.001636,0.020046,-0.002598,0.003897,-0.004162,0.000826,-0.013436,0.002387,0.007953,0.006841,-0.002137,-0.001626,-0.003993,0.001978,0.004314,-0.000964,-0.000359
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11,0.120652,0.149283,-0.012445,-0.042959,0.010156,-0.01506,0.002115,-0.001615,0.008385,0.02041,0.000162,0.005395,-0.00223,0.002615,-0.007736,0.004906,0.007562,0.002914,0.001131,-0.001876,-0.004367,0.004575,-0.004314,-0.001928,0.000239
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15,0.105855,0.15436,-0.013199,-0.040052,0.006155,-0.012829,0.001645,0.001846,0.009204,0.022051,0.007 632,0.004946,-0.005054,0.003578,-0.014929,0.000663,0.008214,0.002787,0.00352,-0.004002,-0.004367,0.000618,-0.001725,-0.00012,-0.002275
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17,0.112685,0.153345,-0.004148,-0.039083,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.000705,0.001846,0.002045,0.020593,0.001137,-0.001798,-0.004608,0.007432,-0.018458,-0.019225,-0.005998,0,-0.000377,-0.009505,-0.005989,-0.001237,-0.000493,-0.006989,0.001796
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19,0.112685,0.153345,-0.02225,-0.055556,0.008617,-0.018686,0.003525,0.001154,0.002863,0.022597,0.005 196,0.002847,-0.000446,0.006055,-0.016015,-0.005569,0.004563,0.003801,0.005782,-0.007253,-0.006364,0.005688,-0.004067,0.003735,0.001437
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22,0.111547,0.150298,-0.010936,-0.04845,0.010463,-0.018128,0.00282,-0.000923,-0.002454,0.021686,-0.005846,0.002847,-0.005054,0.003716,-0.013843,0.007292,0.019558,0.003674,-0.00176,-0.004002,-0.006988,0.005935,-0.004067,-0.002289,0.000838
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23,0.110408,0.147252,-0.006034,-0.042313,0.017849,-0.023427,0.001175,0.001615,0.000818,0.01549,0.0066 58,-0.00015,-0.005946,0.008257,-0.018729,-0.001326,0.004824,0,0.003142,-0.002626,-0.005241,0.000618,0.000246,-0.000482,0.002275
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25,0.112685,0.153345,-0.009051,-0.038114,0.016003,-0.020638,-0.00141,0.000462,-0.000818,0.017495,0.003248,0.005995,0.002973,0.007 432,-0.008686,-0.015248,-0.008084,0.000127,0.002891,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.003586,0.000739,0.004458,-0.004071
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26,0.110408,0.151314,-0.009428,-0.042636,0.002462,-0.010877,0.002115,-0.005077,-0.005113,0.017859,0.001461,0.004646,-0.006095,0.008945,-0.017644,-0.01432,-0.001565,0.007601,0.01081,5e-04,-0.009733,0.001237,0.002465,0,-0.00455
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27,0.108132,0.148267,-0.011691,-0.044251,0.011694,-0.015618,-0.00047,-0.004154,-0.006545,0.019317,-0.003248,0.001049,-0.003271,-0.000688,-0.005565,0.002254,0.001695,0.003167,0.003897,-0.001251,-0.007861,0.003586,0.004067,0.004579,-0.000958
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-29,0.111547,0.139128,-0.004525,-0.028747,0.010771,-0.013108,0.00517,-0.003231,-0.00859,0.008018,-0.000325,0.000899,-0.004014,-0.000826,-0.008958,0.012596,0.028033,-0.001267,0.003017,-5e-04,-0.013227,-0.005935,-0.003204,0.006025,-0.004431
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-36,0.106994,0.142174,-0.017348,-0.047481,0.008001,-0.019522,0.002585,-0.001385,0.003272,0.017677,-0.000974,-0.001199,-0.001487,-0.002064,-0.016286,0.011138,0.028163,-0.000633,0.006913,0.00075,-0.009234,-0.000742,-0.001479,0.003856,-0.005508
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39,0.10927,0.149283,-0.006034,-0.037145,0.013541,-0.012271,0.00188,-0.001385,0.003068,0.020228,0.00406,0.001499,-0.004014,0.003303,-0.015201,-0.005569,0.003129,0.0019,0.002765,-0.006378,-0.010606,-0.002349,0.001356,0.000843,-0.002994
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4,0.111547,0.146236,-0.014708,-0.044251,0.007386,-0.016176,-0.00094,-0.003692,-0.005113,0.018041,0.001949,0.002398,-0.00892,0.000413,-0.015744,-0.003315,0.005476,-0.000633,0.007542,-0.005127,-0.005989,0.00136,0.002218,-0.00241,-0.003712
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40,0.10927,0.152329,-0.00528,-0.037791,0.011694,-0.01255,0.000235,-0.001154,0.002454,0.014579,0.00341,-0.001798,0.005352,0.010046,-0.016151,-0.017634,-0.010561,0.002787,-0.000628,-0.009505,-0.009358,0.000742,0.004683,0.001446,0.002634
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5,0.10927,0.150298,-0.008674,-0.049096,0.010771,-0.011992,-0.000705,-0.002308,-0.000205,0.017859,-0.002598,0.003447,0.000743,0.010735,-0.016151,-0.014585,-0.011343,-0.001014,0.004148,-0.004377,-0.007362,-0.001731,-0.002958,0.001687,0.010298
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6,0.104717,0.151314,-0.010182,-0.045543,0.010771,-0.021753,0.00047,0.001846,0.007158,0.017312,0.0053 59,0.00045,0.000892,0.011147,-0.013572,-0.00716,-0.00665,-0.001774,0.00176,-0.009379,-0.00287,-0.002968,0.004314,-0.006266,-0.000958
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7,0.108132,0.151314,-0.010182,-0.047804,0.017849,-0.013387,-0.000235,-0.002538,0.006545,0.022415,0.001137,0.004046,-0.002081,0.005918,-0.010993,-0.001061,0.012256,-0.002534,0.000251,-0.003001,-0.00574,0.006183,0.00419,-0.000482,0.001437
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8,0.113823,0.14319,-0.01697,-0.047158,0.014772,-0.013108,0.00188,0.002308,0.004704,0.01713,0.00747 ,0.001049,-0.005352,0.006193,-0.009365,-0.0118,-0.001565,0.000253,0.003142,-0.004877,-0.007861,0.005688,0.007148,0.000482,-0.007544
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9,0.112685,0.147252,-0.013576,-0.056525,0.016003,-0.017291,-0.002585,-0.001615,0.007158,0.02278,0.003735,0.004796,-0.004608,0.005367,-0.011536,-0.014983,-0.010691,0.002787,0.011816,-0.009004,0.000873,0.005317,-0.000246,-0.003494,0.000718

----------


## matadworf

Greek_Dodecanese:664,0.106994,0.145221,-0.02489,-0.054587,0.002154,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.004384,-0.002863,0.019499,0.00341,0.002548,-0.002676,-0.005092,-0.016694,-0.00305,0.010952,0.007095,0.003142,-0.004377,0.00025,-0.004328,-0.004437,-0.006627,0.003233
Greek_Dodecanese:665,0.101303,0.15436,-0.033564,-0.064277,0.005232,-0.022869,0.00752,-0.006,0.001023,0.017495,0.005521,0.002098,-0.004311,-0.000413,-0.010722,-0.013657,-0.010431,0.006461,0.007919,-0.003126,-0.010357,0.010016,-0.001725,0.003976,-0.01916
Greek_Dodecanese:666,0.104717,0.140143,-0.032432,-0.072029,0.000308,-0.026216,-0.002115,-0.007615,-0.011862,0.015855,0.005846,0.004946,-0.004906,-0.008533,-0.012486,0.01127,0.021122,0.004687,-0.000377,-0.001251,0.003743,0.00136,-0.003697,-0.003856,0.004431
Greek_Dodecanese:667,0.110408,0.157407,-0.023759,-0.065246,-0.003077,-0.01757,0.00423,-0.002538,0.007158,0.016401,0,0.007343,0.002379,0.0 06055,-0.013843,-0.008353,-0.014473,0.007221,0.006159,-0.003001,-0.008859,-0.004328,0.005176,0.001807,-0.008622
Greek_Dodecanese:668,0.104717,0.149283,-0.021119,-0.062662,0.005232,-0.026216,0.006815,0.003231,-0.001432,0.016583,0.010555,-0.002548,-0.004757,0.005918,-0.016422,-0.003315,-0.001173,0.001774,0.00993,-0.003752,-0.010731,-0.007543,0.003204,0.002892,-0.001676
Greek_Dodecanese:669,0.104717,0.144205,-0.023004,-0.056202,0,-0.012829,0.00752,-0.005538,0.001227,0.011116,0.00341,-0.001349,-0.002676,-0.007432,-0.008143,-0.00053,0.008084,0.008361,0.006411,-0.005253,-0.008735,-0.002968,0.003574,0.013255,0.000479
Greek_Dodecanese:670,0.105855,0.142174,-0.029415,-0.045866,0.006155,-0.008088,-0.003055,-0.009,-0.001227,0.015855,0.012991,-3e-04,-0.004014,0.009496,-0.011536,0.00305,0.002217,0.003547,0.003017,-0.011881,-0.000374,0.00779,-0.004314,-0.005061,-0.006586
Greek_Dodecanese:671,0.10927,0.141159,-0.015462,-0.042636,0.004616,-0.018128,-0.00282,5569,-0.005085,-0.000253,0.015084,-0.005002,0.001248,-0.002968,0.006039,-0.013375,-0.003113
Greek_Dodecanese:672,0.101303,0.148267,-0.025644,-0.068153,0.000308,-0.019801,0.011516,-0.001846,-0.007567,0.019681,0,0.003597,-0.006541,0.004679,-0.007872,0.001724,0.011083,0.008995,0.004651,-0.006628,-0.001123,-0.008285,0.001232,0.006507,0.002994
Greek_Dodecanese:673,0.110408,0.139128,-0.015085,-0.035853,0.000923,-0.009482,0.00423,-0.001154,-0.005522,0.017859,0.002598,0.002698,-0.010406,-0.007707,-0.020087,-0.005436,0.010691,0.00228,0.002765,-0.003252,-0.008111,0.001607,-0.001602,-0.008194,-0.006107
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-28,0.112685,0.149283,0.004148,-0.033592,0.016926,-0.013108,0.00094,0.001385,0.004704,0.018953,0.0040 6,-0.003597,0.000743,0.011147,-0.012893,-0.008884,-0.01004,0.001267,0.000628,-0.005503,-0.007237,0.010387,0.007518,-0.000361,0.001437
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-3,0.10927,0.147252,-0.013953,-0.046512,0.006463,-0.014502,0.003995,0.000692,0.003068,0.018406,-0.00406,0.001649,-0.000149,0.01101,-0.008007,-0.018165,-0.004955,0.006461,0.001634,-0.006003,-0.007612,0.001855,0.001109,0.001325,-0.003952
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-31,0.1161,0.146236,0.00264,-0.026486,0.016003,-0.010598,0.00329,0.003692,0.000205,0.015855,-0.000974,0.004346,-0.004014,0.003991,-0.004207,-0.001061,0.011865,-0.002534,0.001006,-0.002501,-0.005989,-0.000247,-0.002342,0.001687,-0.002155
Greek_East_Taygetos:ARE-35,0.117238,0.142174,0.011314,-0.032623,0.017849,-0.012271,0.001175,-0.003461,0.007976,0.012757,0.004709,-0.002997,0.001635,0.018992,-0.014115,-0.002121,0.001956,-0.00114,-0.004777,-0.008754,-0.004118,0.001484,0.00493,-0.000723,-0.000359
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-1,0.113823,0.140143,0.004148,-0.028101,0.018157,-0.011435,0,-0.001846,0.000614,0.013121,-0.001949,-0.002847,-0.000892,0.009083,-0.020358,0.003447,0.008605,0.003167,0.004651,-0.00075,-0.007861,0.00272,0.00419,0.00964,-0.006945
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-10,0.118376,0.153345,0.007165,-0.031331,0.018773,-0.01004,0.00141,0.001615,0.001023,0.012939,0.00097 4,-0.004046,0.004608,0.011973,-0.011265,-0.01485,-0.007562,0.003421,0.008673,-0.005753,-0.001872,-0.001113,0.000246,-0.002892,0.001437
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-11,0.117238,0.149283,0.006411,-0.02584,0.014772,-0.005299,0.00517,0.000923,-0.002454,0.011116,0.004872,-0.000899,-0.000595,0.002615,-0.013843,0.004508,0.000782,0.003801,0.011187,-0.007379,-0.00025,-0.000618,0.002711,0.00012,0.001197
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-14,0.1161,0.153345,0.010182,-0.025194,0.00954,-0.003904,0.00893,-0.000923,0.00225,0.009294,0.001624,0.005095,-0.002527,0.008257,-0.014929,-0.00305,0.004955,0.002534,0.007039,-0.000375,-0.002995,0,0.003697,-0.005784,0.001078
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-17,0.112685,0.150298,0.003771,-0.030039,0.01908,-0.012829,0.00846,-0.000462,0.003681,0.016583,0.005684,0.005845,-0.002379,0.010735,-0.012758,-0.010209,-0.006258,0.000127,0.003645,-0.008504,-0.003369,0.002226,-0.000493,0.007471,0.003832
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-3,0.117238,0.146236,0.004525,-0.023256,0.020311,-0.018128,0.001175,-0.001385,-0.004295,0.009659,0.000325,-0.000899,0.002825,-0.000826,-0.013029,0.008088,0.019297,-0.003547,-0.000503,-0.002251,-0.004492,0,0.002711,0.003374,-0.001197
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-4,0.1161,0.145221,-0.003017,-0.033269,0.016926,-0.015897,0.003525,-0.001615,-0.001227,0.007107,-0.000325,-0.002098,0.001041,0.006881,-0.008415,0.001061,0.012908,0.00038,0.003771,-0.002501,-0.006863,0.005317,0.005916,-0.00241,0.001437
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-47,0.120652,0.139128,0.003394,-0.021318,0.014156,-0.006136,0.004465,0.004615,-0.00225,0.011116,-0.004547,-0.000899,-0.004608,0.006331,-0.011401,-0.003978,0.006519,0,-0.000251,-0.004627,-0.009858,0.005193,0.005793,0.008073,-0.001437
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-48,0.1161,0.140143,0.003394,-0.026163,0.020619,-0.011713,-0.00235,-0.006692,-0.000409,0.010387,0,0.000899,-0.00446,0.008395,-0.012893,-0.014585,-0.002868,0.003547,0.005908,-0.013632,-0.005989,0.001731,-0.002588,-0.001205,-0.002634
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-50,0.111547,0.142174,0.004148,-0.039083,0.016926,-0.013387,-0.00376,-0.001846,-0.001841,0.014397,-0.000325,0.003747,-0.003717,0.008395,-0.010179,-0.01538,-0.005476,0.000253,0.006034,-0.014257,-0.00025,0.000247,0.006409,-0.003012,-0.003113
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-51,0.114961,0.144205,-0.000754,-0.023579,0.020004,-0.009761,-0.00141,-0.003,0.002659,0.011845,0.003085,0.001948,-0.005054,0.003303,-0.014386,0.00053,0.005737,0.003674,0.000503,-0.007754,-0.009608,0.001237,0.00456,0.002289,-0.000838
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-52,0.1161,0.148267,0.010182,-0.028424,0.020311,-0.010877,0.00094,-0.003923,0.000205,0.019317,-0.006171,0.006145,-0.00446,0.011836,-0.014386,-0.01843,-0.01004,-0.000507,-0.000503,-0.004877,0.00025,-0.000618,0.003697,-0.004097,0.001197
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-53,0.112685,0.14319,0.007542,-0.022933,0.018157,-0.004741,-0.00329,0.003231,-0.001227,0.014397,0,0.000749,-0.007284,0.001651,-0.014251,0.003447,0.01356,-0.003167,0.002263,-0.006128,-0.007861,0.000124,-0.001232,-0.001566,0.004311
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-56,0.113823,0.142174,0.007165,-0.034561,0.019388,-0.017012,-0.00047,0.000692,-0.000818,0.01385,0.002436,-0.00045,0.000297,0.001651,-0.013029,0.010077,0.019688,-0.003547,0.001885,-5e-04,-0.007362,0.005193,0.005546,0.008073,0.000599
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-59,0.106994,0.151314,0.004525,-0.025194,0.012925,-0.003347,0.003995,-0.002077,0.007158,0.016219,0.002436,0.002248,-0.003568,0.012111,-0.011401,-0.012331,-0.011343,-0.00152,0.006536,-0.004127,-0.007237,0.000742,0.007518,0.004458,-0.005628
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-6,0.117238,0.148267,0.010936,-0.025194,0.016618,-0.004741,0.003055,0.000692,0.000614,0.015855,0.007 307,0.001499,-0.008474,0.004679,-0.014658,-0.006364,0.001043,0.005194,0.007668,-0.006628,-0.007487,0.001237,0.005053,0.004458,-0.007784
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-60,0.114961,0.150298,0.004525,-0.033592,0.027697,-0.01004,0.009165,0.001154,0.003886,0.012028,0.0071 45,0.002698,-0.002081,0.003303,-0.012758,-0.003713,0.004172,-0.000253,0.003268,-0.002876,-0.004991,0.003339,0.007272,0.002289,-0.000359
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-61,0.113823,0.147252,0.007542,-0.028747,0.020004,-0.013945,0.000235,-0.006692,0.000205,0.013668,-0.001624,0.004196,-0.002379,0.001789,-0.015336,0.005171,0.012778,0.000507,0.005405,-0.001376,-0.001123,0.001607,0.00037,0.002169,-0.002275
Greek_East_Taygetos:LA-9,0.119514,0.139128,0.009428,-0.013243,0.019388,-0.00753,0.003525,0.003,0.002454,0.017312,-0.000325,0.003747,-0.004906,0.005643,-0.016286,0.011933,0.025034,0.005828,0.003394,0.001 ,-0.009109,-0.000371,0.000739,0.003012,0.001676
Greek_Elis:IL-1,0.118376,0.145221,0.003771,-0.028747,0.015387,-0.010877,0.003055,0.002077,0.000409,0.015855,-0.004872,-0.000599,-0.001041,0.008945,-0.017915,-0.002519,0.00678,-0.00114,0.006034,-0.003752,0.000624,0.005317,0.000863,0.003615,-0.007664
Greek_Elis:IL-13,0.092197,0.149283,0.005657,-0.032623,0.015387,-0.019522,0.00141,0.004846,-0.001023,0.012574,0.005521,0.000599,0.005054,0.004 404,-0.010858,0.000133,0.007432,-0.003801,0.007793,-0.008504,-0.000624,0.000866,0.010476,-0.001807,-0.00934
Greek_Elis:IL-14,0.122929,0.144205,0.013199,-0.024548,0.017849,-0.005299,0,0.000231,0.000614,0.019681,0.00406,0.00 2248,-0.002379,0.006606,-0.013301,-0.001326,0.005998,-0.003294,0.002765,-0.007504,-0.01123,0.003462,0.005669,0.001566,-0.003832
Greek_Elis:IL-15,0.118376,0.149283,-0.000754,-0.027132,0.016926,-0.005299,-0.00094,-0.001615,0.003681,0.018041,0.003897,0.004496,-0.006095,0.007569,-0.016694,0.004243,0.0103,-0.000127,0.009804,-0.002751,-0.006613,0.002102,0.006779,0.005663,-0.002036
Greek_Elis:IL-17,0.113823,0.140143,0.011691,-0.022933,0.018465,-0.005299,0.003525,0,-0.000409,0.015308,0.006171,0.004196,-0.004757,0.003853,-0.014794,-0.002254,0.011735,0.006714,0.008422,-0.002751,-0.012728,0.000495,0.002465,0.005543,-0.005748
Greek_Elis:IL-21,0.121791,0.152329,0.004903,-0.026809,0.025851,-0.009203,0,0.000462,0.004295,0.017677,0.007957,0.0 0045,-0.009217,0.007294,-0.017644,-0.007558,0.007171,-0.004687,0.004902,-0.004752,-0.006988,-0.000866,0.007395,-0.006386,-0.001796
Greek_Elis:IL-22,0.118376,0.146236,0.004148,-0.023902,0.016311,-0.009482,0.005405,-0.000923,-0.002659,0.019681,-0.000325,0.001349,-0.004608,0.006331,-0.016829,-0.001856,0.005215,0.002914,0.006285,-0.01138,-0.010731,-0.001113,0.00456,0.003494,-0.004071
Greek_Elis:IL-23,0.118376,0.150298,0.005657,-0.028747,0.017849,-0.013945,0.003055,0.001615,0.008181,0.015308,0.000 65,0.003897,-0.001041,0.009909,-0.017915,-0.012066,-0.006519,0.000887,0.009804,-0.013757,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.002218,0.001446,0.002994
Greek_Elis:IL-28,0.120652,0.147252,0.012068,-0.021964,0.012002,-0.001673,-0.00235,0.005307,-0.005522,0.007836,-0.004222,0.001199,-0.001338,0.009221,-0.009636,-0.013789,-0.004303,-0.001014,0.00729,-0.007379,-0.007237,0.001484,-0.000493,0.00482,-0.004191
Greek_Elis:IL-30,0.114961,0.14319,0.007542,-0.027455,0.016618,-0.00753,0.000705,0.004154,0.001841,0.015855,-0.001461,0.004196,-0.004757,0.009358,-0.015336,-0.004375,0.008345,0.002027,0.011564,0.001751,-0.00574,-0.000371,-0.006162,0.003253,0.001916
Greek_Elis:IL-31,0.111547,0.147252,0.010936,-0.027132,0.021235,-0.011713,0.0047,0.000923,0.000818,0.014032,0.00568 4,0.001499,0.002825,0.005918,-0.015744,-0.003447,0.007041,0.002027,0.001131,-0.002251,-0.007362,0.001855,-0.004067,0.003012,-0.008742
Greek_Elis:IL-34,0.118376,0.144205,-0.003771,-0.035207,0.02185,-0.01004,0.00517,-0.003692,0.000614,0.012757,0.000812,0.001649,-0.003122,0.000688,-0.020358,-0.006099,0.012256,0.008742,0.008799,0.002251,-0.010731,-0.002844,0.002958,-0.00012,0.000479
Greek_Elis:IL-35,0.1161,0.142174,0.009051,-0.018734,0.011694,-0.009482,0.003525,0.000231,0.001432,0.012939,0.001 299,0.003897,0.005352,0.010459,-0.016558,-0.016309,-0.012386,-0.005701,0.014078,-0.008504,-0.001123,0.000124,0.000863,-0.001084,0.003592
Greek_Elis:IL-36,0.1161,0.149283,0.007542,-0.024548,0.024004,-0.006972,0.001645,0.006461,-0.001227,0.012028,0.002923,0.001948,-0.005649,0.003303,-0.008686,-0.000265,0.004955,-0.002154,0.005782,-0.00988,0.002496,0.003339,-0.001232,-0.000241,-0.002395
Greek_Elis:IL-38,0.124067,0.150298,0.009805,-0.024871,0.02185,-0.008646,-0.00094,0.002538,0.004704,0.015308,0.006496,0.0043 46,-0.00223,0.006468,-0.012893,-0.006099,0.013299,0,0.002263,-0.004252,-0.011979,0.004328,-0.002588,-0.003976,-0.001078
Greek_Elis:IL-4,0.118376,0.138112,0.009428,-0.022933,0.010156,-0.007809,0.00376,-0.003461,-0.006545,0.012939,0.00065,0.002997,-0.005649,0.001789,-0.013572,0.009944,0.018515,0.003041,0.006285,0.001 ,-0.006738,-0.005441,0.003697,0.005663,-0.003952
Greek_Elis:IL-40,0.10927,0.138112,0.006034,-0.027455,0.016618,-0.007809,0.000705,0.004846,-0.004295,0.012392,0.003735,-0.002248,-0.000743,0.000413,-0.017236,-0.007558,-0.001173,0.00114,0.011439,-0.007253,-0.00549,0.001113,0.006409,-0.002048,-0.006706
Greek_Elis:IL-42,0.118376,0.145221,0.003771,-0.030685,0.01908,-0.017012,0.00752,0.004615,0.002454,0.011663,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.005203,0.004129,-0.017915,0.009679,0.024121,0.001014,0.004274,-0.001876,-0.009109,-0.007914,-0.00037,0.00241,-0.003113
Greek_Elis:IL-44,0.111547,0.138112,0.007542,-0.020026,0.017234,-0.011992,0.00094,0.001846,-0.001227,0.011663,-0.001461,0.004046,-0.001338,0.007844,-0.018187,-0.000663,0.014081,0.00114,0.006159,-0.005378,-0.004866,-0.002102,0.001972,-0.002169,-0.000359
Greek_Elis:IL-46,0.1161,0.139128,0.004148,-0.020349,0.014464,-0.011435,0.00282,0.004384,-0.008181,0.012757,0.001299,-0.000599,-0.004608,0.00289,-0.019815,0.010209,0.019688,0.006968,0.010307,0.000 875,-0.003244,-0.002968,0.004067,0.004699,0.000479
Greek_Elis:IL-47,0.121791,0.142174,0.023004,-0.018411,0.031083,-0.007251,0.000235,-0.005077,0.000614,0.011481,0.001461,0.003597,0.001 041,0.002477,-0.014522,0.004773,0.023078,0.001267,0.000754,-0.00025,-0.003244,-0.000866,0.003081,0.00482,-0.004191
Greek_Elis:IL-6,0.111547,0.148267,0.012822,-0.021318,0.01908,-0.008646,0.005875,0.00923,0.004909,0.012028,0.0001 62,0.003297,-0.00446,0.009358,-0.014115,-0.010475,0.001434,0.003674,0.001634,-0.003752,-0.005865,-0.003462,0.003204,-0.00012,0.003832
Greek_Elis:IL-8,0.103579,0.140143,-0.005657,-0.025517,0.016926,-0.003068,0.00705,-0.001615,0.00409,0.016401,-0.001461,-0.000899,-0.002676,0.004266,-0.013029,-0.008486,0.007302,0.00266,0.006159,0.005503,-0.003369,0.002597,-0.005669,-0.001205,-0.002036
Greek_Elis:IL-9,0.121791,0.141159,0.001131,-0.023579,0.016003,-0.00753,0.00094,-0.000923,0.001432,0.011845,0.005196,0.001499,0.000 446,0.011698,-0.018594,-0.002254,0.006389,0.001774,0.007919,-0.005253,-0.009733,-0.000495,-0.000246,0.000241,0.001916-0.007384,-0.006954,0.016219,0.003735,0.001649,-0.006987,-0.002615,-0.0057,0.00
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF28k,0.121791,0.141159,0.012445,-0.023902,0.022158,-0.010877,0.000705,-0.001385,0.00225,0.019864,0.006171,0.003897,-0.004608,0.000963,-0.018594,0.009414,0.016689,0.005954,0.008045,-0.004002,-0.006489,0.00136,0.000616,-0.003615,-0.00012
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF36k,0.112685,0.140143,-0.001886,-0.033915,0.017542,-0.016176,0.004935,-0.003231,-0.00409,0.006743,0.005034,0.005095,-0.006838,-0.00523,-0.013708,0.009812,0.024903,-0.000507,0.005279,-0.000375,-0.005366,-0.000247,0.001232,0.006386,-0.003113
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k,0.1161,0.147252,-0.004525,-0.036499,0.016618,-0.015339,0.00188,0.002308,0.00409,0.017677,0.00422 2,0.007194,-0.005798,0.003853,-0.011672,-0.001458,0.011343,-0.001774,0.007416,-0.005378,-0.005116,0.000495,0.00037,0.00735,-0.005149
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF52k,0.117238,0.141159,-0.006788,-0.035207,0.01508,-0.004462,0.00047,-0.003,-0.006136,0.018406,-0.002111,0.005995,-0.004757,-0.007432,-0.015065,0.005436,0.024382,-0.005448,0.004022,0.001251,-0.003369,-0.002968,0.005423,0.00253,0.00012
Greek_Izmir:GreeceF69k,0.10927,0.144205,-0.006034,-0.040375,0.016311,-0.01004,0.00329,-0.004846,-0.006545,0.018406,-0.000812,0.003447,-0.003122,0.001651,-0.013843,0.00358,0.017602,-0.003927,0.005782,-0.001126,-0.007112,0.008285,-0.004437,0.003133,-0.011616
Greek_Izmir:GreecePhokaia60,0.117238,0.138112,-0.001508,-0.032623,0.008001,-0.010598,0.006345,-0.005538,-0.005727,0.017677,-0.001786,0.000899,0.000149,0.003578,-0.014251,-0.004906,0.004042,-0.00114,0.004651,-0.000125,-0.002246,0.00643,-0.002465,-0.000482,-0.002634
Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna30,0.112685,0.152329,-0.004525,-0.030362,0.012925,-0.015897,0,-0.001385,-0.002659,0.016766,0.001461,0.003597,-0.003271,0.00055,-0.009908,0.00053,0.002086,-0.00038,0.008547,-0.005253,-0.001996,0.000247,-0.001109,-0.003133,-0.003592
Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna4,0.113823,0.14319,-0.004148,-0.041344,0.013849,-0.011435,-0.00141,-0.002769,-0.006954,0.004374,0.001624,-0.004496,-0.000595,0.009083,-0.00855,-0.013126,-0.009127,0.002027,0.002388,0.001251,-0.004866,0.002473,0.00493,-0.004458,0.002634
Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna58,0.114961,0.149283,0.001 131,-0.029716,0.020004,-0.009482,-0.000235,-0.000923,0.005727,0.01549,0.000812,0.002398,-0.000892,0.006468,-0.011943,-0.007558,0.007041,0.000507,0.005405,-0.006253,-0.010482,-0.001237,0.003451,0.008676,-0.004311
Greek_Izmir:GreeceSmyrna9,0.110408,0.146236,-0.008297,-0.041344,0.007386,-0.021753,0.009165,0.005769,-0.002863,0.014943,0.004384,0.003297,-0.004608,0.005092,-0.012215,0.000265,0.008866,0.003547,0.007668,-0.010505,-0.013351,0.004451,-0.005916,0.007109,-0.002275
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1,0.104717,0.148267,-0.021119,-0.055556,0.007078,-0.019801,-0.002585,-0.002538,-0.004909,0.021504,0.00406,0.002398,-0.005649,0.006744,-0.010043,-0.013922,-0.006519,0.003041,0.001006,-0.010505,-0.004617,0.000742,-0.002711,-0.011568,-0.005269
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos10,0.10927,0.150298,-0.02753,-0.044897,-0.006463,-0.020917,0.004935,-0.002538,-0.009613,0.016766,0.003735,0.004496,-0.001784,0.001789,-0.007872,0.002254,0.010431,0.001647,0.008296,-0.007379,-0.002121,0.003215,-0.004067,-0.001325,-0.003952
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2,0.106994,0.146236,-0.01961,-0.057171,0.003693,-0.018965,0.004465,0,-0.000818,0.014761,0.004709,-0.002398,-0.003271,-0.004404,-0.015879,0.013126,0.019297,0,0.003771,0.007879,-0.002745,0.004081,0.004807,0.005663,-0.003832
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos4,0.106994,0.146236,-0.029038,-0.053941,0.002154,-0.01255,0.00141,-0.003692,-0.003272,0.009659,0.005684,0.003597,-0.002676,0.003716,-0.0095,0.001724,0.005476,-0.00152,-0.000754,-0.005628,-0.000873,-0.002968,-0.003328,-0.005302,-0.003473
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5,0.10927,0.142174,-0.01961,-0.055233,0.012002,-0.016455,0.000235,-0.002077,-0.004295,0.020957,0.001949,0.004046,-0.004757,0.004404,-0.010586,0.005436,0.005737,0.004181,0.00905,-0.005503,-0.004742,0.002102,-0.001602,-0.001566,0.005868
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos6,0.111547,0.144205,-0.017348,-0.052326,0.002462,-0.016455,-0.003525,-0.00923,-0.002659,0.013668,0.002598,0.002098,-0.003568,-0.001789,-0.005836,0.010872,0.021644,0.002154,0.00352,-0.001501,0,0.003215,0.004807,0.001566,-0.004431
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos7,0.108132,0.145221,-0.020365,-0.053295,0.006155,-0.020917,-0.00188,-0.002308,-0.00859,0.019317,0.003735,0.003897,-0.000743,0.003991,-0.011265,-0.009016,-0.010822,0.00152,0.005028,-0.004627,-0.006239,0.006183,0.002835,-0.004338,0.001437
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8,0.102441,0.144205,-0.02225,-0.059755,0.000615,-0.017291,0.003525,-0.006,-0.011249,0.019135,-0.001137,0.005245,-0.01219,-0.003991,-0.010722,0.005701,0.019427,-0.002027,0.004399,-0.007253,-0.005366,0.001607,-0.003697,0.001928,-0.0049126,-0.001647,0.004274,-0.008129,0.001622,0.006306,-0.004314,0.011086,-0.000958
Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9,0.10927,0.151314,-0.021496,-0.052649,0.009232,-0.020917,0.001175,-0.004846,-0.00859,0.015308,-0.001461,0.004946,-0.000595,-0.001789,-0.013708,0.01074,0.025425,-0.000507,-0.00088,0.001751,-0.007612,-0.003091,0.001356,0.002289,-0.000479
Greek_Laconia:638,0.1161,0.14319,0.013953,-0.037468,0.022158,-0.013108,-0.004465,-0.012692,-0.001841,0.017859,0.001786,3e-04,-0.006541,0.007294,-0.017915,0.012331,0.019036,0.00076,0.00176,-0.004377,-0.006738,0.004081,0.01935,0.005663,-0.003353
Greek_Laconia:639,0.103579,0.149283,0.004148,-0.042636,0.020927,-0.014223,0.002585,-0.001385,0.012067,0.018588,0.000325,0.002398,-0.000297,0.001376,-0.012215,0.002784,0.008866,-0.001014,-0.003645,-0.003627,-0.001497,-0.001607,-0.001849,0.002169,0.001796
Greek_Laconia:640,0.117238,0.155376,0.001886,-0.03553,0.017849,-0.000558,0.00235,0.004846,0.00409,0.017859,0.00714 5,-0.005995,-0.004608,0.00812,-0.014929,-0.005304,-0.005346,0.007728,0.006159,-0.002126,-0.001123,0.005812,-0.006532,0.006025,-0.002036
Greek_Laconia:641,0.121791,0.148267,-0.007165,-0.0323,0.023081,-0.011435,0.00282,0.001615,0.009613,0.003098,0.0029 23,-0.001049,0.006095,0.007294,-0.013029,0.01127,0.031683,0,-0.003017,-0.005753,-0.002995,0.001731,0.010599,0.00494,-0.008502
Greek_Laconia:LA-12,0.112685,0.141159,0.003394,-0.031654,0.01908,-0.008367,0.00329,-0.001615,0.000205,0.01221,0.008119,0.000599,-0.002825,0.009083,-0.011808,-0.006364,0.007432,0.001647,0.012193,-0.001251,-0.010981,0.000742,0.007518,0.002169,0.001437
Greek_Laconia:LA-16,0.124067,0.150298,0.012822,-0.024871,0.025543,-0.011992,0.002585,-0.001846,0.005113,0.012757,-0.000812,0.001049,-0.002081,0.000826,-0.019137,0.006629,0.0236,-0.00114,0.005028,-0.002001,-0.009483,-0.003091,0.006779,-0.005181,0.000838
Greek_Laconia:LA-18,0.118376,0.149283,0.008297,-0.019057,0.012925,-0.009761,-0.00235,-0.003692,-0.001023,0.021686,0.008282,0.003297,-0.000892,0.012799,-0.016829,-0.011138,-0.009518,0.00266,0.010684,-0.003627,-0.009234,0.001607,0.000123,0.004699,-0.005508
Greek_Laconia:LA-2,0.117238,0.149283,0.004903,-0.028747,0.018465,-0.006693,0.007755,-0.000462,-0.001023,0.014397,0.001949,0.004796,-0.005054,0.006331,-0.012486,-0.001326,0.00678,-0.002407,0.007793,0,-0.005116,0.001731,0.003328,-0.002651,-0.004311
Greek_Laconia:LA-20,0.120652,0.152329,0.014331,-0.01615,0.025851,-0.011156,0.00893,0.005538,0.003886,0.013121,0.0017 86,0.005845,-0.005946,0.005092,-0.008822,-0.003447,0.004433,-0.003927,0.006788,-0.011631,-0.004866,0.006059,0.005916,0.008194,-0.002275
Greek_Laconia:LA-22,0.066017,0.140143,-0.00264,-0.03553,0.012002,-0.006693,0.004935,0.002538,0.003272,0.008018,0.001 137,0.001499,0.00223,-0.001789,-0.009229,-0.00411,0.005476,-0.0019,0.006536,-0.005878,-0.008735,0.000618,0.002711,0.003615,0.003712
Greek_Laconia:LA-23,0.1161,0.14319,0.007165,-0.032946,0.020311,-0.009203,-0.005405,-0.004846,-0.002454,0.018224,0.003735,0.000599,-0.003865,0.00578,-0.015065,0.008751,0.016689,0.000887,-0.002137,-0.001751,-0.00549,0.002226,0.012941,0.002169,-0.005029
Greek_Laconia:LA-24,0.108132,0.146236,-0.000754,-0.034561,0.018157,-0.01255,0.000235,0.000692,0.004295,0.019499,0.0016 24,0.002548,-0.000297,0.005092,-0.013029,-0.000663,0.009388,-0.002407,0,-0.005253,-0.005615,-0.000742,-0.003451,-0.008073,0.003113
Greek_Laconia:LA-25,0.117238,0.150298,0.001131,-0.036176,0.018157,-0.005857,0.00235,0.000923,-0.006545,0.012028,0.006496,-0.001499,-0.003122,0.009634,-0.015472,-0.011138,-0.004694,0.004434,0.00352,-0.003126,-0.006489,0.009769,-0.00037,0.003494,-0.003233
Greek_Laconia:LA-26,0.119514,0.144205,-0.001131,-0.034884,0.02185,-0.013945,-0.000705,-0.000462,0.000205,0.01057,0.002761,0.001049,0.0022 3,0.004954,-0.015472,0.009546,0.027381,0.000127,-0.001885,-0.004877,-0.002246,0.001484,0.007395,0.006025,-0.006586
Greek_Laconia:LA-28,0.125205,0.147252,0.008674,-0.021964,0.016926,-0.010877,0.00094,-0.001385,-0.004704,0.020957,0.002761,0.004046,-0.001189,0.013074,-0.015472,-0.000133,0.002477,-0.004434,-0.000126,-0.013757,-0.00836,0.003339,0.003944,0.000602,-0.003952
Greek_Laconia:LA-31,0.114961,0.141159,0.013576,-0.023902,0.013541,-0.008925,0.00141,0.000923,-0.005522,0.014761,0.003735,-0.002698,-0.002379,0.000275,-0.014658,0.001856,0.006519,-0.00076,0.002137,-0.007128,-0.009982,0.001113,-0.003328,0.003374,-0.001317
Greek_Laconia:LA-33,0.118376,0.146236,0.00528,-0.01938,0.02739,-0.008367,-0.001175,-0.004154,0.007363,0.012392,0.004384,-0.004346,0.003122,0.013349,-0.018458,-0.004508,0.009909,0.001647,0.007793,-0.003126,-0.008984,0.006677,0.002218,-0.003253,-0.003473
Greek_Laconia:LA-34,0.113823,0.146236,0.004903,-0.016796,0.016926,-0.007251,0.00423,-0.000923,0.002045,0.011299,-0.002761,0.000599,-0.006392,0.01101,-0.012215,-0.014452,-0.009388,0.005448,0.005656,-0.015507,-0.006489,-0.004946,0.006286,0.000482,0.002994
Greek_Laconia:LA-36,0.117238,0.137096,0.004525,-0.022287,0.012618,-0.004462,0.00141,-0.003231,0.000818,0.01385,0.003248,-0.000599,-0.003122,0.007844,-0.014251,-0.000265,0.004694,0.001647,0.006034,-0.009129,-0.004991,-0.003339,0.002711,-0.001205,-0.006586
Greek_Laconia:LA-37,0.114961,0.139128,0.011691,-0.021641,0.016618,-0.006136,0.003525,0.004154,0.003886,0.014397,0.005 359,0.005845,-0.00446,0.011423,-0.013708,-0.006364,0.004694,-0.004434,-0.000126,-0.009379,-0.010357,0.00272,-0.00037,0.004217,-0.001676
Greek_Laconia:LA-39,0.10927,0.149283,0.00264,-0.029393,0.008001,-0.008925,0.00376,0.002538,0.003681,0.01549,0.00503 4,-0.001199,0.006095,0.010184,-0.018187,-0.013259,-0.005476,0.003674,0.007165,-0.006128,-0.009982,-0.000124,0.002711,-0.001446,0.000479
Greek_Laconia:LA-43,0.117238,0.152329,0.013953,-0.020026,0.021235,-0.010319,0.00752,0.003923,0.00225,0.015126,0.00454 7,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.00289,-0.013572,0.010077,0.020079,0.005701,0.011439,0.005 002,-0.007861,0.000371,-0.000863,0.00253,0.000359
Greek_Laconia:LA-44,0.10927,0.145221,-0.008674,-0.028424,0.004001,-0.011992,-0.00047,-0.003923,-0.008181,0.018041,0.003085,0.00045,-0.010555,0.013349,-0.010043,-0.017237,-0.009388,0.00114,0.00088,-0.008879,-0.00287,-0.001607,0.003821,-0.001325,-0.000599
Greek_Laconia:LA-5,0.118376,0.150298,0.008674,-0.028101,0.020311,-0.011992,0,-0.001615,-0.002659,0.015308,0.001299,-0.002847,-0.00446,0.01156,-0.014929,-0.016043,-0.00691,0.002914,0.00817,-0.015132,-0.004243,0.000247,0.008011,0.006627,0.001676
Greek_Laconia:LA-64,0.112685,0.145221,-0.001886,-0.033592,0.00677,-0.011435,0.004465,-0.000462,-0.000205,0.015855,0.001786,-0.005395,-0.001933,0.007156,-0.009229,-0.018297,-0.005476,0.002027,0.010307,-0.008004,-0.004118,0.002473,0.000739,0.001687,0.002515
Greek_Laconia:LA-66,0.117238,0.151314,-0.004525,-0.042313,0.013541,-0.020917,-0.003525,0.000692,-0.001636,0.014032,0.002598,0.002698,0.000446,0.008 395,-0.017508,0.000928,0.012778,0.000507,0.003897,-0.004127,-0.006364,0.001237,0.006162,-0.000723,-0.006227
Greek_Laconia:LA-67,0.117238,0.153345,-0.000377,-0.039083,0.016003,-0.010877,0.01081,0.006,-0.001227,0.019864,0.003735,0.012889,-0.007879,0.002615,-0.010722,-0.000398,0.012647,0.001774,0.004777,-0.008379,-0.001872,-0.001607,0.001232,0.001446,-0.007065
Greek_Laconia:LA-7,0.120652,0.148267,0.010559,-0.024225,0.017234,-0.010319,0.00282,-0.001846,0.005931,0.016219,0.001949,-0.001948,0.006541,0.005918,-0.021987,-0.018165,-0.009257,0.0019,0.008045,-0.007379,-0.007986,0.002226,-0.002095,-0.000843,-0.009101
Greek_Laconia:LA-70,0.114961,0.158423,0.000754,-0.037145,0.017542,-0.01506,-0.001175,-0.006461,0.003681,0.017859,0.002436,0.000599,0.000 149,0.010872,-0.007329,-0.000265,0.001956,0.0019,0.004777,-0.00988,-0.01123,0.002597,0.002835,0.000723,-0.00455
Greek_Laconia:LA-73,0.110408,0.147252,0.00264,-0.031977,0.01908,-0.011435,0.003995,0,0.001636,0.01221,0.002923,0.00 1349,-0.004608,0.012248,-0.012486,-0.011403,-0.018775,0,0.006662,-0.013131,-0.008485,0.008285,0.000863,0.00482,0.000479
Greek_Laconia:LA-8,0.112685,0.151314,0.000377,-0.037468,0.007386,-0.008925,0.004935,-0.000462,-0.001227,0.012028,0.002436,0.001349,0.004906,0.005 505,-0.018322,-0.009016,-0.000652,0.00152,0.002891,-0.009254,-0.007362,0.007419,-0.001602,0.005061,0.003353
Greek_Macedonia:674,0.12862,0.150298,0.025644,-0.018411,0.016311,0,0.009165,0.001846,-0.001227,0.005832,-0.000974,3e-04,-0.001933,0.01101,-0.012351,-0.013657,-0.009388,0.003547,0.014204,-0.002251,-0.010232,-0.001113,0.006162,0.002048,0.004071
Greek_Macedonia:675,0.114961,0.145221,0.016216,-0.018088,0.01508,-0.007251,0.00611,0.004846,0.009408,0.010752,0.0060 08,-3e-04,-0.002825,0.001651,-0.013708,0.001856,0.003781,0.000887,0.008925,-0.010255,-0.004492,0.003091,0.003204,0.006386,0.003473
Greek_Macedonia:676,0.121791,0.140143,0.015085,-0.00323,0.021235,-0.000558,0.00094,0.006231,-0.001841,0.012028,0.01023,0.002398,-0.002973,0.006331,-0.013165,0.00411,0.02373,-0.006081,0.008045,0.001376,-0.011355,0.010758,0.004314,0.005663,-0.003233
Greek_Macedonia:677,0.1161,0.148267,0.009805,-0.020349,0.009848,-0.004183,0.003995,0.000692,-0.007567,0.008201,-0.001624,-0.005245,-0.000297,0.007432,-0.006515,-0.014452,-0.013038,-0.00114,-0.003017,0.004752,-0.00861,0.003957,-0.003328,-0.006386,0.002515

----------


## matadworf

Greek_Macedonia:678,0.121791,0.144205,0.011691,-0.022933,0.028928,-0.006414,-0.00047,0.004846,-0.00225,0.014579,0.000325,0.003297,-0.011596,0.006331,-0.017508,-0.002121,0.013951,-0.005448,0.01986,-0.005378,-0.003619,0.000371,0.007395,-0.000241,-0.008143
Greek_Macedonia:679,0.124067,0.140143,0.011691,-0.012274,0.026774,0.00251,-0.00094,0.002769,-0.000409,0.023873,0.003573,-0.003447,-0.000149,0.013487,-0.021308,-0.005171,0.011865,0.009375,-0.000754,-0.006503,-0.010357,0.008037,-0.006039,0.001807,-0.001676
Greek_Macedonia:680,0.121791,0.142174,0.016593,-0.014858,0.019388,-0.003347,0.010575,0.001385,0.001432,0.010387,-0.001137,0.004046,-0.002527,0.018717,-0.017372,-0.012198,-0.008866,-0.00114,0.009553,-0.014882,0,-0.001484,0.003204,0.006627,-0.002155
Greek_Macedonia:681,0.118376,0.145221,0.011691,-0.024225,0.025543,-0.011156,0.01081,0.005769,-0.009204,0.009659,0.008444,-0.003897,-0.004608,0.006744,-0.014929,-0.011668,-0.007171,0.000633,0.005531,-0.003877,-0.004617,0.000989,-0.002465,0.004097,-0.008981
Greek_Macedonia:683,0.12862,0.138112,0.015085,-0.023256,0.016003,0.000837,-0.00047,-0.001385,-0.000614,0.016401,0.007957,-0.002548,-0.00446,0.013625,-0.013029,-0.017104,0.000261,-0.004181,0.002514,-0.006253,-0.006239,-0.00779,0.001849,-0.011327,0.001796
Greek_Macedonia:684,0.1161,0.139128,0.012822,-0.020672,0.011079,-0.008925,0.00564,0.001385,0.000818,0.011481,0.0027 61,0.004346,-0.004906,0.010184,-0.018187,-0.004641,0.007041,0.007095,0.010307,0.002876,-0.0141,0.001484,0.004314,-0.008435,-0.005149
Greek_Macedonia:685,0.117238,0.147252,0.016216,-0.023902,0.019696,-0.009203,-0.00423,-0.001385,0.005318,0.005103,0.001137,0.004346,0.001 338,0.017203,-0.014929,-0.010872,0.000782,0.0019,0.006662,-0.012006,-0.006738,-0.003091,0.015159,-0.006627,0.007305
Greek_Macedonia:686,0.125205,0.146236,0.023004,-0.018088,0.02185,-0.015618,-0.00188,0.005077,-0.00225,0.013668,-0.002273,0.004346,0.006541,0.00812,-0.018594,0.001061,-0.001956,-0.002534,0.005782,-0.010005,-0.006489,0.003957,0.003574,-0.007953,0.006107
Greek_Macedonia:687,0.121791,0.144205,-0.001131,-0.002584,0.014772,-0.004741,0.00047,0.006231,-0.003477,0.018041,-0.001137,0.002248,0.001784,0.020093,-0.010586,0.011005,0.001565,0.004941,0.004902,-0.006753,-0.00574,0,-0.000863,0.00482,0.003473
Greek_Macedonia:688,0.119514,0.128972,0.004903,-0.01615,0.00954,-0.008925,0.003525,0.005307,-0.002045,0.001822,-0.000162,0.005995,-0.006987,0.007982,-0.018322,-0.003447,-0.000652,-0.001647,0.006159,-0.003627,0.000125,-0.004451,-0.005669,-0.001446,-0.001437
Greek_Macedonia:689,0.127482,0.14319,0.012822,-0.008398,0.02739,0.003904,0.00094,-0.000462,0.013294,0.020775,-0.003573,0.003447,-0.001041,0.005918,-0.019544,-0.016441,0.005737,0.003674,0.006034,-0.006003,-0.005241,-0.008532,0.005423,-0.004579,-0.006945
Greek_Messenia:MES-1,0.1161,0.145221,0.004148,-0.024548,0.022773,-0.009203,-0.003995,-0.001154,0.00225,0.01057,0.002273,0.000599,0.00044 6,0.014175,-0.017101,-0.017767,-0.009388,0.011275,0.01257,-0.007629,-0.010107,-0.000371,-0.000616,0.006145,0.001197
Greek_Messenia:MES-10,0.121791,0.148267,0.011691,-0.021964,0.025543,-0.006972,0.00141,0.003231,0.000818,0.018953,0.0017 86,0.002548,-0.001041,0.003853,-0.012893,-0.011138,0.001434,0.004941,0.004525,-0.007754,-0.007362,-0.001237,0.009983,0.003494,-0.001916
Greek_Messenia:MES-11,0.117238,0.147252,0.01697,-0.024548,0.016311,-0.011992,0.00376,0.006231,0.006545,0.016401,-0.001949,0.004796,-0.00996,0.013349,-0.012486,-0.012994,-0.009388,0.00076,0.004651,-0.005002,-0.010482,0.007296,0.002588,-0.001687,0.005628
Greek_Messenia:MES-12,0.118376,0.153345,0.015839,-0.016796,0.020619,-0.012271,0.005405,0.002308,0.00225,0.012757,0.0009 74,0.000749,-0.001189,0.014726,-0.013029,-0.012463,-0.008996,0.006081,0.017723,-0.009129,-0.004617,0.006801,0.000863,-0.00723,-0.00491
Greek_Messenia:MES-13,0.124067,0.147252,0.010936,-0.020026,0.020311,-0.005857,0.0047,-0.005538,-0.007363,0.016948,-0.002598,0.005245,-0.00669,0.003303,-0.019272,0.008088,0.020992,-0.001647,0.016215,-0.000875,-0.010107,0.002473,0.002342,0.000964,-0.001078
Greek_Messenia:MES-16,0.1161,0.144205,0.003394,-0.022287,0.01908,-0.017012,-0.000235,-0.005769,0.001841,0.013303,-0.001624,0.001199,0,0.004817,-0.019408,-0.004641,0.011474,0.003674,0.003017,-0.002376,-0.009109,-0.000247,0.001479,0.005663,-0.003712
Greek_Messenia:MES-18,0.114961,0.149283,0.006034,-0.02261,0.018773,-0.009761,0.00188,0.000462,0.005318,0.012757,0.0058 46,-0.001199,0,0.015138,-0.016965,-0.01432,-0.007171,0.006968,0.008925,-0.017008,-0.003993,-0.001731,0.003821,0.002651,0.000479
Greek_Messenia:MES-19,0.119514,0.145221,0.012068,-0.025194,0.014156,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.004384,0.003068,0.015672,0.002436,0.004796,-0.0055,0.006055,-0.019951,-0.00305,0.014212,0.000127,0.008296,-0.002001,-0.007861,0.003339,0.004807,0.004338,-0.002515
Greek_Messenia:MES-2,0.117238,0.146236,0.012068,-0.015181,0.020311,0.001952,0.00282,-0.001385,-0.004704,0.009841,-0.007145,0.002098,-0.003419,0.006606,-0.018458,0.004243,0.022556,-0.004054,0.007919,0.002126,-0.005615,0.005317,0.008874,0.004699,-0.001916
Greek_Messenia:MES-24,0.1161,0.146236,0.004525,-0.028424,0.019696,-0.008088,0.008695,0.002077,0.001841,0.010752,0.005 359,0.004796,-0.007433,0.004679,-0.010993,-0.007823,0.008996,0.003547,0.012947,-0.005002,-0.007362,-0.00136,0.000863,-0.002771,-0.005269
Greek_Messenia:MES-25,0.121791,0.144205,0.00792,-0.023579,0.022773,-0.010877,0.005875,-0.003461,0.003886,0.016037,0.006333,-0.003597,-0.003122,0.004679,-0.009636,0.006497,0.004433,-0.000633,0.004651,-0.004377,-0.011979,0.002844,0.005053,0.004338,-0.002395
Greek_Messenia:MES-27,0.1161,0.147252,0.009051,-0.024871,0.018773,-0.004741,0.004465,-0.000462,-0.000409,0.013485,0.000325,0.004196,0.002527,0.013 212,-0.013708,-0.013524,-0.012778,0.001647,0.008045,-0.005878,-0.006863,0,0.002711,-0.004338,-0.005868
Greek_Messenia:MES-29,0.114961,0.145221,0.001886,-0.034238,0.01508,-0.011435,0.000235,-0.003692,0.003681,0.013485,-0.002761,0.004496,-0.00223,0.007294,-0.008958,-0.013259,-0.010952,0.000253,0.004902,-0.010755,-0.004243,0.002968,-0.002218,0.001205,-0.000239
Greek_Messenia:MES-3,0.113823,0.127957,-0.006411,-0.01938,0.011694,0,-0.00141,0.002538,0.001227,0.011481,0.007795,0.0058 45,-0.001635,0.008395,-0.018051,-0.001193,0.00691,-0.00114,0.003394,-0.001376,-0.005241,-0.002844,-0.002218,0.002771,-0.003473
Greek_Messenia:MES-31,0.118376,0.145221,0.009051,-0.028424,0.021235,-0.017849,0.00282,-0.003,-0.004909,0.016219,0.004384,0,-0.00892,0.006193,-0.013843,0.00053,0.011865,0.002787,0.004902,-0.002751,-0.000749,-0.001237,0.000739,0.004579,0.000239
Greek_Messenia:MES-32,0.1161,0.139128,0.00528,-0.026809,0.017849,-0.011992,0.00611,0,-0.00634,0.019135,-0.001949,-0.000749,0.001189,0.006055,-0.011672,0.002519,0.004955,-0.002787,0.01345,-0.004252,-0.000499,-0.00136,-0.001972,0.003374,0.001676
Greek_Messenia:MES-33,0.122929,0.140143,0.006788,-0.027455,0.020311,-0.008088,0.00188,0.000692,0.003477,0.02278,0.00373 5,3e-04,-0.00892,0.004129,-0.014115,-0.000796,0.010691,-0.000507,0.006662,-0.001376,-0.007861,0.007172,0.005176,-0.00012,0.002515
Greek_Messenia:MES-34,0.1161,0.147252,0.010559,-0.027778,0.014156,-0.003626,0.001175,0.000692,0.002045,0.009659,0.003 41,0.002098,0.002081,0.004817,-0.013708,-0.019491,-0.004563,0.002914,0.010056,-0.009505,-0.006863,0.005688,0.003451,0.001205,-0.000838
Greek_Messenia:MES-36,0.120652,0.142174,0.012068,-0.021318,0.025851,-0.011992,0.00423,0.006231,0.000205,0.015126,-0.002436,0,-0.004014,0.006193,-0.018865,-0.008221,-0.007171,0.004054,0.010056,-0.013757,-0.004991,0.00507,-0.003574,-0.00494,0.002634
Greek_Messenia:MES-39,0.122929,0.140143,0.009051,-0.028101,0.023081,-0.001116,0.004465,0.000231,-0.000614,0.017677,-0.003573,0.001499,-0.003271,0.004404,-0.015336,-0.001458,0.022296,-0.001014,0.008045,-0.002876,-0.006613,0.003215,0.001849,0.007591,-0.00958
Greek_Messenia:MES-4,0.120652,0.152329,0.00528,-0.025194,0.016311,-0.006972,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.002863,0.02041,0.001137,0.000899,-0.011447,0.013625,-0.015065,-0.001061,0.00352,-0.001267,0.008296,-0.011881,-0.003494,0,0.001356,-0.00012,0.003473
Greek_Messenia:MES-40,0.1161,0.145221,0.007542,-0.023902,0.018773,-0.001116,0.00376,0.002538,-0.001636,0.012757,0,-0.001349,-0.003271,0.01445,-0.016694,-0.010209,0.007693,-0.000127,0.005531,-0.002751,-0.00574,0.001607,0.002465,-0.000482,0.001437
Greek_Messenia:MES-41,0.1161,0.136081,0.011691,-0.022287,0.022466,-0.013108,0,-0.002077,-0.003681,0.012757,-0.002761,0.001499,0.001635,-0.002615,-0.008007,0.006762,0.020731,0.000507,0.01081,-0.001501,-0.003369,0.001978,0.008011,0.002651,-0.000838
Greek_Messenia:MES-5,0.111547,0.149283,0.009051,-0.034884,0.017234,-0.014223,0.010105,0.002308,0.001432,0.011116,0.003 41,0.002098,-0.006987,0.013487,-0.014794,-0.010872,-0.005215,0.004054,0.006159,-0.000625,-0.00574,0.002349,0.004314,0.003494,-0.005987
Greek_Messenia:MES-7,0.119514,0.147252,0.011691,-0.020672,0.020927,-0.012271,0.00752,0.002077,-0.002045,0.013668,0.002436,-0.001798,-0.003419,0.001927,-0.010586,-0.009546,0.006519,-0.00114,0.007919,-0.002001,-0.00262,0.002597,0.007395,0.004097,0.002634
Greek_Messenia:MES-8,0.114961,0.137096,0.004148,-0.01938,0.016311,-0.006136,0.003525,0.003461,-0.006136,0.016766,0.002111,0.002098,-0.008622,0.004266,-0.013029,0.005038,0.005607,-0.000127,0.007668,-0.004752,-0.007986,0.001237,0.000986,0.006386,-0.001078
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-16,0.1161,0.14319,-0.009428,-0.030685,0.016618,-0.010877,0.00846,0.000692,0.002863,0.013121,0.0043 84,0.001349,0.001338,0.009083,-0.012622,0.003713,0.005085,0,0.00729,-0.001376,0.00025,0.006059,0.003451,0.000602,-0.002155
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-17,0.118376,0.148267,0.00792,-0.031654,0.015387,-0.010598,-0.002585,0,0.002659,0.016037,0.000974,0.005695,-0.004906,0.01101,-0.014386,-0.013922,-0.007953,0.001014,0.008422,-0.008129,-0.000749,0.002226,-0.000616,-0.001446,0.006466
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-18,0.118376,0.146236,0.006034,-0.032946,0.017234,-0.009482,0.00047,-0.005077,0.00225,0.016401,0.004872,0.001948,-0.00892,0.013487,-0.011265,-0.008618,-0.009518,0.006461,0.010182,-0.001126,-0.006364,0.010387,0.00419,0.00253,0.003952
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19,0.117238,0.142174,-0.006034,-0.03553,0.015695,-0.01506,0.001175,-0.000462,0.002863,0.013668,-0.004384,0.00045,0.002527,-0.003303,-0.011808,-0.002519,0.016298,0.00038,0.00817,-0.002001,-0.001872,0.003586,-0.000616,-0.001687,0.00012
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20,0.112685,0.137096,-0.005657,-0.034561,0.019388,-0.009761,0.00564,0.002308,0.000409,0.013121,0.0029 23,0.002098,-0.002081,0.00812,-0.014929,0.000133,0.003912,0.005954,0.004651,-0.005002,-0.001123,0.001978,-0.000616,0.005061,0.002634
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-21,0.114961,0.14319,0.001886,-0.026163,0.011387,-0.007809,-0.002115,0.000231,-0.004704,0.014032,0.004384,0.001798,-0.004162,0.003441,-0.016286,-0.009016,0.007693,0.00228,0.003897,-0.005253,-0.004617,-0.001855,0.003944,0.007591,0.000599
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-22,0.120652,0.145221,0.00264,-0.027455,0.018465,-0.011992,0.00376,0.001846,0.00225,0.013485,0.00633 3,0.00045,0.002973,0.011285,-0.015608,-0.015115,-0.009127,0.002914,0.006913,-0.013757,-0.005116,0.001113,-0.003697,-0.000723,0.001317
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-23,0.117238,0.146236,0.001886,-0.030362,0.012925,-0.009203,0.00564,0.005077,-0.003477,0.014397,0.005359,0.002098,-0.003122,0.011836,-0.015879,-0.018297,-0.00678,0.000633,0.004274,-0.004377,-0.010981,0.00915,-0.000246,-0.004097,0.002155
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-25,0.117238,0.148267,0.005657,-0.023902,0.013849,-0.018407,0,0.001385,0.001432,0.019681,-0.001137,0.003747,-0.005352,0.00523,-0.010722,-0.002519,0.01017,0.00266,0.001634,-0.011005,-0.006364,0.001978,0.002465,0.002289,0.00012
Greek_Peloponnese:618,0.117238,0.146236,0.009428,-0.036499,0.020004,-0.004462,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.005727,0.013121,0.001461,0.001049,0.008 176,-0.000138,-0.019544,-0.001591,0.001695,0.004687,0.00729,-0.012506,0.008485,-0.005317,0.008627,0.011929,0.001437
Greek_Peloponnese:619,0.108132,0.14319,0.011314,-0.030039,0.014464,0.002231,0.006345,0.002077,0.006 34,0.016583,0.010393,3e-04,-0.004906,0.013762,-0.017644,-0.013392,-0.00691,-0.002154,0.006159,-0.009129,-0.008859,0.003586,0.008874,0.003133,-0.001197
Greek_Peloponnese:620,0.117238,0.142174,0.009805,-0.020026,0.030775,-0.003904,0.00611,0.001615,-0.003886,0.017495,0.003573,-3e-04,0.001338,0.010184,-0.019272,0.003182,0.008866,0.005954,-0.006285,-0.009379,-0.003494,-0.003215,-0.000616,-0.011206,-0.001796
Greek_Peloponnese:621,0.12862,0.153345,0.001131,-0.02261,0.030159,-0.010598,-0.00094,-0.003461,0.006136,0.012392,0.009906,0.000899,-0.010704,0.008257,-0.021037,-0.00358,0.005476,-0.005194,0.001508,-0.006503,-0.006738,0.003462,0.005176,-0.003133,-0.001317
Greek_Peloponnese:622,0.120652,0.149283,-0.00264,-0.032946,0.02185,-0.010319,-0.00329,-0.005077,0.00634,0.007107,-0.000162,0.002548,-0.005352,0.000826,-0.019815,-0.003713,0.014603,0.007601,0.014958,0.003126,-0.012852,0.002226,0,0.000361,0.000599
Greek_Peloponnese:623,0.124067,0.141159,0.012822,-0.030039,0.019696,-0.003068,0.01034,-0.003692,-0.002863,0.019317,0.003248,0.001798,-0.003419,0.002615,-0.013708,-0.001724,0.007432,0.000253,-0.00088,-0.001876,-0.003993,0.007419,0.0053,-0.000964,-0.00455
Greek_Peloponnese:624,0.118376,0.14319,0.009805,-0.019703,0.018465,-0.02008,0.00235,-0.002077,0.010431,0.006378,0.004384,-0.001499,0.010406,-0.004679,-0.008415,0.017237,0.024251,0.002914,0.005279,0.004 877,-0.010357,-0.002226,0.008011,0.008073,-0.00946
Greek_Peloponnese:625,0.12862,0.142174,0.013953,-0.028101,0.020927,-0.007809,0.00611,-0.004384,0.007567,0.017677,-0.001949,0.004346,-0.002379,0.00812,-0.019679,-0.005038,0.009648,-0.002407,0.007165,-0.006503,-0.004367,-0.002102,-0.000986,0.003494,-0.001916
Greek_Peloponnese:626,0.118376,0.145221,0.001886,-0.020026,0.018157,-0.00502,-0.00047,-0.008077,0.003477,0.006014,0.005034,0.007493,0.001 189,0.00234,-0.01045,0.015513,0.008345,-0.007601,0.001006,-0.011005,-0.003369,-0.010016,0.015159,-0.001928,0.001916
Greek_Peloponnese:627,0.117238,0.140143,0.005657,-0.024871,0.019696,-0.009203,0.00188,0.009,0.000818,0.005103,0.006333,-0.001199,-0.004162,0.007432,-0.016422,-0.001458,0.007693,-0.009248,0.004525,-0.005503,-0.013102,-0.007914,-0.002711,0.001928,0.012214
Greek_Peloponnese:628,0.117238,0.141159,0.011314,-0.028747,0.026774,-0.015897,0.004465,-0.003692,0.002045,0.012757,0.002273,-0.00045,0.004757,0.005367,-0.017236,-0.002387,0.005737,0.005448,0.012821,-0.011506,-0.018467,0.000247,0.000123,0.016267,-0.005389
Greek_Peloponnese:629,0.125205,0.136081,0.011691,-0.025194,0.017234,-0.009761,0.008695,0.002308,-0.00225,0.015308,0.004872,0.003897,0.004162,0.0057 8,-0.016694,0.00053,0.008084,-0.003294,0.008045,0.004752,-0.011355,0.005441,0.003328,-0.002651,-0.003952
Greek_Peloponnese:630,0.122929,0.151314,0.001886,-0.020672,0.024928,-0.019522,0.00235,0.003231,0.001023,0.022415,0.0048 72,-0.004046,-0.017096,0.007156,-0.017779,0.001326,-0.004303,0.002154,0.006788,-0.012381,-0.006988,0.001484,0.0053,-0.001084,-0.002395
Greek_Peloponnese:631,0.10927,0.151314,0.009051,-0.024548,0.018773,-0.013945,-0.001175,0.002769,-0.009204,0.01877,0.00065,0.002398,0.002527,0.00674 4,-0.020765,-0.00305,0.005476,0.006841,0.015712,-0.00025,-0.008111,0.004575,-0.002958,0.00241,0.001916
Greek_Peloponnese:632,0.110408,0.146236,0.015839,-0.039083,0.013541,-0.014502,0.014571,-0.001615,0.006545,0.012392,0.007307,0.006744,0.003 717,0.012799,-0.015065,-0.01432,-0.008866,0.002407,0.003394,-0.003126,-0.001747,0.002349,0.007395,-0.003976,-0.002634
Greek_Peloponnese:633,0.126344,0.145221,0.009051,-0.020995,0.019696,-0.007251,0.008225,-0.001154,0.001841,0.016401,0.012666,-0.010341,-0.004162,0.002752,-0.010993,0.00358,0.00678,0.004054,0.005028,-0.003001,-0.006863,0.007543,-0.000493,0.000964,-0.005029
Greek_Peloponnese:634,0.112685,0.135065,0.010182,-0.027778,0.009848,-0.006972,0.014336,-0.004384,-0.002863,0.008747,0.005846,0,-0.009812,0.000826,-0.015336,0.014187,0.01708,0.005321,0.003142,0.0028 76,-0.00025,-0.000618,0.005176,-0.000723,-0.007664
Greek_Peloponnese:635,0.08992,0.148267,0.004148,-0.0323,0.016003,-0.021475,-0.00658,0.010384,0.000205,0.012939,0.005521,-0.001049,0.006095,-0.00234,-0.00475,0.000663,0.001173,-0.005954,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.001747,-0.000124,0.013557,-0.007712,-0.010179
Greek_Peloponnese:636,0.114961,0.148267,0.000754,-0.032946,0.020311,-0.01255,-0.001175,0.016153,0.007567,0.014214,0.002598,-0.005245,0.000595,0.010322,-0.014115,-0.008353,-0.005476,0.009628,0.009553,-0.010755,-0.005241,0.003215,0.001479,0.007471,0.008861
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209,0.118376,0.142174,0. 009805,-0.036176,0.022466,-0.010598,0.000705,-0.004846,0.002454,0.02041,0.001786,0.002698,-0.004311,0.01101,-0.02443,-0.005304,0.009388,0.002154,0.013324,-0.004752,-0.011355,0.001855,0.000246,-0.004217,-0.007903
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE231,0.118376,0.150298,0. 00264,-0.031008,0.01231,-0.011992,0.001175,-0.000923,-0.001636,0.017677,-0.002761,0.006594,-0.008771,-0.004129,-0.015336,0.012463,0.018384,0.000633,0.005908,0.003 252,-0.010606,0.005564,-0.000739,0.001687,-0.00467
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252,0.118376,0.139128,-0.001131,-0.030362,0.012925,-0.008646,0.003055,0.003,-0.002045,0.016219,0.001299,0.002548,-0.004608,0.004266,-0.009365,0,0.012517,-0.001774,0.008296,-0.000625,-0.005865,0.004575,0.004683,0.002169,0.002395
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1,0.118376,0.146236,-0.007165,-0.041344,0.014464,-0.013945,-0.00094,-0.000231,0.002863,0.019864,0.006333,-0.00015,-0.007879,0.008808,-0.009365,-0.002784,0.004955,0.005321,0.009427,-0.00075,-0.001123,-0.001607,0.004807,-0.00253,-0.004191

----------


## matadworf

Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7,0.113823,0.149283,-0.00528,-0.041344,0.018157,-0.015618,0.003055,-0.004615,0.006136,0.022233,0.006008,0,-0.000743,0.003028,-0.018594,0.010342,0.018906,0.000633,0.006034,0.006 628,-0.00262,0.00136,-0.00037,0.002048,-0.001197
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8,0.119514,0.144205,0.00264,-0.036176,0.014772,-0.013666,0.004935,-0.004615,0.002045,0.021868,0.004384,0.002098,-0.0055,0.005092,-0.016286,-0.001591,0.009257,-0.004307,0.007039,-0.012756,-0.006489,0.003833,-0.002588,0.004338,0.002874
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-9,0.1161,0.14319,0.001131,-0.0323,0.011387,-0.011435,0.00094,0.001385,-0.007158,0.015855,0.001624,0,-0.003568,0.00289,-0.015201,0.003978,0.020601,-0.004054,0.005405,0.003752,-0.007986,-0.006306,0.005669,-0.001687,-0.000239
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126,0.117238,0.146236,0.012 068,-0.019703,0.016003,-0.005578,-0.00094,-0.003231,-0.000409,0.019681,-0.001786,0.005545,-0.006987,0.005643,-0.011808,0.001061,0.008736,-0.001014,0.005531,-0.003377,-0.007112,-0.004575,0.000493,0.001325,-0.003832
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144,0.117238,0.145221,0.013 953,-0.01938,0.018773,-0.003626,-0.00047,0.003692,-0.000205,0.018588,0.005359,0.004046,-0.006244,0.004954,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.007171,0.000507,-0.000754,-0.004252,-0.006364,0.005564,0.006902,0.000241,-0.002994
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162,0.122929,0.144205,0.015 085,-0.020995,0.02185,-0.006136,0.003055,0.001846,0.000614,0.018041,0.004 384,0.002698,-0.008622,0.006468,-0.008007,0.000663,0.004824,-0.00114,0.007668,-0.008379,-0.007487,0.002844,0.003328,0.002651,-0.003233
Greek_Trabzon:G25001,0.111547,0.150298,-0.054305,-0.06783,-0.022466,-0.01255,0.011516,-0.004154,-0.044586,-0.002551,0.001137,0.008842,-0.020812,0.014588,-0.003122,-0.021877,-0.00678,-0.000253,-0.004022,-0.002876,0.008111,0.005441,-0.003081,0.000843,0.00455
Greek_Trabzon:G25002,0.114961,0.13405,-0.052797,-0.057494,-0.021542,-0.023427,0.000235,-0.005077,-0.038655,-0.011663,0.002761,0.005845,-0.011447,0.008808,-0.010722,-0.009149,0.008736,0.000127,0.004022,0.001626,-0.002121,0.000742,0.00037,-0.005422,-0.000958
Greek_Trabzon:G25003,0.108132,0.147252,-0.04978,-0.065246,-0.028621,-0.016455,0.00752,-0.003231,-0.047245,-0.003462,0.002923,0.006594,-0.016501,0.014726,-0.009772,-0.021745,-0.00326,-0.00038,-0.001257,0.003502,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.004067,-0.003012,-0.001557
Greek_Trabzon:G25004,0.108132,0.14319,-0.054682,-0.066861,-0.025851,-0.020917,0.01034,-0.004154,-0.03661,-0.009841,0.002761,0.012889,-0.011744,0.007982,-0.002172,-0.024396,-0.008214,-0.001647,0.00264,0.005628,0.001497,-0.004204,-0.002342,-0.009278,-0.007424
Greek_Trabzon:G25005,0.111547,0.133034,-0.050534,-0.061693,-0.024928,-0.024542,0.00329,-0.006461,-0.033133,0.001822,0.004872,0.006444,-0.00996,0.004542,-0.011129,0.001458,0.025686,-0.003041,-0.007793,0.003126,0.005366,0.001484,-0.003944,0.004338,-0.001197
Greek_Trabzon:G25006,0.104717,0.146236,-0.065242,-0.058463,-0.022773,-0.01255,0.01081,-0.003461,-0.039473,-0.005649,0,0.006145,-0.015163,0.006468,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.010691,-0.00266,-0.00176,0.006253,0.002371,0.001237,0.000246,-0.005302,0.001437
Greek_Trabzon:G25007,0.10927,0.137096,-0.056191,-0.056525,-0.026159,-0.016733,0.00846,-0.005769,-0.038655,-0.005285,0.007632,0.005395,-0.012933,0.004266,-0.007193,-0.004773,0.011865,0.00038,0.001383,0.007003,0.0032 44,0.008285,-0.000739,0.001325,-0.003952
Greek_Trabzon:G25008,0.106994,0.121864,-0.04714,-0.053941,-0.022466,-0.01757,0.001645,-0.008077,-0.02986,0.002005,0.001299,0.005995,-0.011001,0.008395,-0.0095,-0.012198,0.011995,-0.001267,0.002765,0.001376,0.00262,-0.001484,-0.000123,-0.001325,-0.001796
Greek_Trabzon:G25009,0.106994,0.144205,-0.053174,-0.064277,-0.028928,-0.018407,0.012221,-0.002769,-0.040291,-0.003462,0.003735,0.004496,-0.011001,0.006055,-0.006922,-0.01896,-0.003912,-0.002914,-0.001006,-0.003126,0.007612,0.003215,-0.004437,-0.008435,-0.00012
Greek_Trabzon:G25010,0.105855,0.138112,-0.058077,-0.060401,-0.028005,-0.014223,0.006815,-0.003923,-0.031292,0.002916,0.002436,-0.001649,-0.02334,0.000688,-0.012758,-0.000796,0.019036,0,-0.005405,0.001126,0.00836,0.002473,-0.006286,0.000602,-0.002395
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-1,0.114961,0.141159,0.012068,-0.033915,0.01231,-0.006136,0.00423,0.000923,-0.000614,0.013121,-0.003897,0.00045,0.001338,0.007982,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019818,-0.004054,-0.00088,-0.000875,-0.002995,-0.000989,0.001356,-0.001928,-0.003233
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-10,0.113823,0.144205,0.006411,-0.019057,0.020004,-0.009203,0.006345,0.002308,0.003886,0.015672,0.004 06,0.002248,-0.005649,0.007432,-0.012079,-0.003447,0.005476,0.001774,0.006913,-0.004127,-0.004742,-0.001855,-0.001232,-0.000361,0.003113
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-11,0.118376,0.145221,0.012822,-0.014858,0.021235,-0.007251,0.002585,0.006692,-0.00225,0.010023,-0.001949,0.001649,0.002527,0.002202,-0.012079,0.001724,0.007041,0.002154,0.005782,-0.005127,-0.010107,-0.005317,0.003574,0.001325,-0.004311
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-12,0.117238,0.144205,0.006034,-0.021964,0.020004,-0.006414,0.00564,0.000923,-0.000409,0.010752,0.000487,0.002248,-0.001487,0.010735,-0.00855,-0.014717,-0.00665,0.000887,0.004525,-0.000625,-0.003993,0.006306,-0.000616,0.002771,0.003592
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-14,0.118376,0.145221,0.018102,-0.020026,0.01908,-0.002789,0.00329,0.002077,-0.005318,0.003827,0.004384,-0.001649,0.001784,0.009358,-0.008686,0.002652,-0.005737,0.004307,0.003268,-0.002626,-0.003244,0.000742,0.011216,0.009278,-0.000838
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-15,0.113823,0.14319,0.00264,-0.025517,0.015695,-0.008088,0.007285,0.002769,-0.001432,0.007654,-0.00065,0.002098,-0.007879,0.014313,-0.009365,-0.015646,-0.007823,0.003547,0.004148,-0.006128,-0.002496,-0.000371,0.000863,0.006627,0.003473
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-17,0.120652,0.146236,0.016216,-0.014535,0.026159,-0.004183,0.0094,0.006461,0.004704,0.012028,0.00503 4,-0.001649,0.001041,0.009634,-0.014929,-0.002784,0.005867,0.00038,0.00176,-0.005378,-0.003369,-0.006183,0.000246,-0.001807,0.002155
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-2,0.1161,0.149283,0.006788,-0.027778,0.020004,-0.009203,0.008225,0.000692,-0.002659,0.014943,-0.001949,0.003747,-0.003717,0.003716,-0.015336,-0.000928,0.005737,-0.007601,0.005279,0.002251,-0.011355,0.002349,0.005176,0.001446,0.00012
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-20,0.1161,0.151314,0.009051,-0.022933,0.018157,-0.010877,0.00658,0.000692,0.001636,0.012574,-0.000812,-0.003597,0.004162,0.002477,-0.009636,0.00358,0.004042,-0.001394,0.003771,-0.005002,-0.011854,0.008161,0.005669,0.004338,-0.00455
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-21,0.124067,0.14319,0.010559,-0.020349,0.022466,-0.011156,0.00517,0.001385,-0.000409,0.014579,0.003573,-0.001948,-0.000149,0.010184,-0.018594,-0.015248,-0.006389,0.00152,-0.000377,-0.009755,-0.006863,-0.000371,-0.002218,-0.00964,-0.002395
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23,0.106994,0.141159,0.004148,-0.02907,0.016926,-0.01506,0.001175,-0.001154,0.001023,0.019681,0.004222,0.000899,-0.001338,0.006606,-0.018594,0.004508,0.01017,0.001267,0.005028,-0.009129,-0.004617,0.008408,0.001356,0.005543,0.000599
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-24,0.125205,0.144205,0.003394,-0.024871,0.018773,-0.008367,0.00658,-0.004384,-0.003477,0.010205,0.001461,0,-0.001487,0.00578,-0.009908,0.003713,0.007432,0.005194,0.003017,-0.004627,-0.01148,-0.001731,-0.002835,0.005181,-0.003353
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-26,0.117238,0.139128,0.009428,-0.020995,0.023081,-0.005578,0.008695,-0.002077,-0.00634,0.007472,0.005846,-0.004946,-0.002379,-0.000138,-0.014794,0.003845,0.01017,-0.000887,0.006662,-0.003877,-0.004367,0.001607,0.0053,0.004097,0.000838
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-28,0.1161,0.144205,0.006411,-0.01938,0.022466,-0.016176,0.004935,0.005769,-0.003477,0.006925,-0.002598,-0.001499,0.001338,0.007432,-0.005429,-0.011933,-0.013951,-0.000127,0.001383,-0.01138,-0.006863,0.003091,0.001109,-0.001566,-0.002036
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-29,0.117238,0.147252,0.00264,-0.030362,0.012618,-0.008925,0.010105,-0.002077,0.003068,0.009112,0.000974,-0.00045,-0.001338,0.008533,-0.011943,-0.005304,0.004563,0.003674,0.006411,-0.001501,-0.011729,-0.004328,0.004807,-0.00241,0.001557
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-3,0.119514,0.14319,0.008674,-0.018411,0.017542,0.003626,0.000705,-0.001154,-0.003681,0.01221,-0.002598,0.002098,-0.001784,0.008257,-0.012351,-0.002254,0.005215,0.002914,0.000377,-0.004502,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.001725,-0.001566,-0.007903
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-30,0.121791,0.139128,0.016593,-0.02584,0.020004,-0.011156,0.006345,0.000462,0.0045,0.009476,0.00373 5,0.002248,-0.001784,0.00812,-0.010722,-0.002652,0.00665,-0.00228,0.003645,-0.00075,-0.007237,0.001484,0.006779,-0.00253,-0.007424
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-31,0.119514,0.146236,0.005657,-0.025194,0.017849,-0.013666,0.001175,0.001846,0.002045,0.021504,0.004 547,0.002098,-0.000297,0.012111,-0.006107,-0.009546,-0.007302,0.003674,0.008925,-0.009379,-0.007986,0.004946,0.002711,0.003133,-0.010777
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-4,0.112685,0.144205,0.012822,-0.016473,0.01908,-0.004741,0.00517,0.002308,0.001227,0.008747,-0.002273,0.000599,0.000595,-0.001789,-0.008958,0.009281,0.023469,-0.000127,-0.007919,0.008754,-0.006364,0.003833,0.001109,0.004579,-0.002874
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-5,0.1161,0.142174,0.012068,-0.022287,0.013849,-0.014781,0.000705,0.002077,0.001227,0.010023,0.000 974,-0.001349,0.001338,-0.000826,-0.013436,-0.004906,0.005998,-0.00152,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.011854,-0.001237,0.001356,0.002892,0.000838
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-6,0.117238,0.146236,0.009051,-0.018088,0.010156,-0.001116,0.00329,0.001846,0.005522,0.010387,0.0009 74,-0.004346,0.001487,0.015827,-0.008143,-0.005304,0.001043,0.003167,0.002263,-0.003877,-0.004367,-0.003586,0.000986,0.002289,0.00491
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-7,0.122929,0.149283,0.016216,-0.01938,0.02739,-0.008925,0.002115,0.000692,0.00225,0.011481,0.0038 97,0.005395,-0.001338,0.015414,-0.012622,-0.012066,0.000913,0.001014,0.00905,-0.007128,0.00262,-0.000495,-0.00456,0.002892,0.001317
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-8,0.114961,0.140143,0.009428,-0.023579,0.016618,-0.003626,0.00094,0.001154,0.001841,0.01057,-0.004547,0.000749,0.002676,0.001651,-0.015201,-0.004641,0.010822,0.002914,0.005405,-0.004752,-0.008859,-0.000866,0.002835,0.006989,0.001916
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-9,0.120652,0.141159,0.010182,-0.014535,0.021542,-0.010598,-0.00282,-0.003692,-0.001023,0.012028,0.000162,0.002847,0.002973,0.002 615,-0.009093,0.006232,0.008345,0.001014,0.004777,-0.000375,-0.004617,-0.009645,-0.005916,0.006868,-0.000599

----------


## matadworf

Italian averages
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H,0.105855,0.146236,-0.003017,-0.046189,0.018465,-0.013945,0.00188,-0.004615,0.007772,0.021868,0.005359,0.006594,-0.015312,0.000963,-0.007329,-0.006497,0.000522,-0.004054,0.005405,-0.005503,0.00025,0.001484,-0.002588,0.005422,-0.000599
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H,0.102441,0.147252,-0.006034,-0.037791,0.018157,-0.016455,-0.003525,0.000923,0.00859,0.02442,0.008931,0.00389 7,-0.001041,0.001239,-0.001357,-0.008751,-0.015516,-0.000253,0.004274,-0.005878,-0.00262,0.00643,0,0.004579,-0.002754
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H,0.101303,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.039406,0.016926,-0.015618,-0.00423,0.003923,0.00634,0.017677,0.007632,0.00119 9,-0.002081,0.007156,-0.009093,-0.004243,0.006389,0.000887,0.003771,-0.00025,0.002246,0.000124,-0.003081,-0.003133,0.00455
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H,0.10927,0.14319,0.00 1508,-0.027778,0.020927,-0.005299,-0.00188,0.003,0.013294,0.018588,0.004709,0.006894,-0.003122,0.005505,0.000271,0.000265,-0.000782,0.00038,0,-0.006253,-0.00287,0.002968,-0.007395,-0.006868,-0.00467
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H,0.092197,0.146236,-0.006034,-0.040698,0.011694,-0.015897,0.000705,-0.000462,0.014521,0.025878,0.003897,0.004346,-0.001487,0.002064,-0.004343,-0.004773,0.002217,-0.003167,-0.003771,-0.006878,0.005865,0.005935,-0.000616,-0.000964,0.005029
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H,0.099026,0.147252,0.0 03394,-0.038114,0.025543,-0.008367,-0.000705,-0.000923,0.012271,0.022415,0.001624,-0.001948,-0.002081,-0.001927,-0.002714,-0.005038,-0.007041,0.00266,0.001131,-0.005253,-0.000499,-0.00643,-0.001602,-0.002651,0.000359

Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090,0.10927,0.150298,-0.002263,-0.038114,0.017542,-0.014502,0.004935,0.003692,0.009817,0.022415,0.000 325,0.007343,-0.004311,-0.004404,-0.004479,-0.010077,-0.012386,0.001774,0.006159,-0.006003,-0.003993,0.008285,0.005176,-0.000241,0.008622
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140,0.113823,0.151314,-0.00264,-0.034238,0.016003,-0.003347,0.001175,-0.000692,0.009613,0.016948,-0.00341,0.004346,-0.00669,-0.006055,-0.001086,-0.000265,0.002217,0.00076,0.003897,0.002876,-0.002246,-0.000495,0.006286,0.003856,0.00012
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP161,0.112685,0.150298,0.001886,-0.030362,0.022466,-0.011992,0.00094,-0.005769,-0.002045,0.018588,-0.001949,0.006444,-0.006244,-0.012799,-0.005565,0.00769,0.01708,-0.004941,0.002263,-0.003877,-0.002246,-0.001237,-0.00456,0.002892,-0.006945
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162,0.113823,0.142174,-0.006788,-0.031008,0.016003,-0.011713,0.000235,-0.001154,0.003681,0.021686,0.002273,0.002548,-0.003271,-0.004404,-0.007193,0.001458,0.002868,-0.001774,0.006788,-0.001751,0.000998,0.003586,-0.004314,0.002651,-0.000958
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205,0.108132,0.152329,-0.002263,-0.046835,0.010463,-0.014502,-0.00141,-0.004615,-0.001227,0.01877,0.004222,-0.001349,-0.001784,-0.001789,-0.011672,0.003845,0.00691,-0.004054,0.002388,-0.004627,-0.005116,0.001484,-0.006655,-0.003253,-0.001796
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380,0.110408,0.149283,-0.001886,-0.039406,0.007694,-0.008646,-0.002115,-0.007384,0.007363,0.025695,0.001137,0.004946,-0.002676,-0.007844,-0.009093,0.001856,0.001825,0.000253,0.001508,-5e-04,-0.001248,-0.000618,-0.006532,0.001205,0.002155
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503,0.111547,0.159438,-0.005657,-0.037468,0.011694,-0.014223,0.00517,-0.006,0.002863,0.022597,-0.005359,0.004046,-0.009366,-0.003578,-0.004614,-0.013524,-0.009257,-0.00038,0.00729,-0.007504,-0.005615,0.002349,0.004314,0.003976,-0.001437
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616,0.106994,0.152329,-0.001131,-0.038114,0.019696,-0.012271,0.00893,0.001615,0.00409,0.017677,-0.000162,0.006294,-0.009366,-0.004266,-0.007057,0.004375,0.007171,0.001014,0.004022,-0.003377,-0.011105,0.00272,0.00456,0.005181,-0.001916
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13,0.117238,0.150298,-0.003017,-0.031331,0.019696,-0.018407,-0.00282,0.002308,0.005727,0.02442,0.002761,-0.00045,-0.001487,-0.00289,-0.001493,0.016839,0.012908,0.000253,0.009679,-0.004127,-0.004118,0.002844,0.002342,0.003976,-0.002994
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14,0.114961,0.145221,0 .002263,-0.04199,0.016618,-0.020917,-0.000235,-0.001385,0.001432,0.022962,0.00682,0.004796,-0.006095,-0.004404,-0.005836,-0.009812,-0.005998,0.001774,0.00817,-0.012381,0.001497,0.000618,0.002958,0.004097,0
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15,0.113823,0.149283,0 .003017,-0.030039,0.015695,-0.014502,0.00235,-0.002308,0.000614,0.021322,-0.001299,0.002398,-0.007433,-0.003853,-0.008143,0.003182,0.000391,0.002407,-0.000251,-0.003752,-0.005989,-0.005812,0.001725,-0.000241,-0.001437
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16,0.114961,0.149283,0 .009051,-0.03553,0.016311,-0.008088,0.00094,-0.005307,0.005522,0.018041,0.00341,0.005845,-0.002676,-0.002202,-0.006107,-0.000928,0.001695,0.003294,0.002137,-0.002751,0.000624,-0.00371,0.001479,-0.002771,0.003952
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo17,0.111547,0.144205,0 .003394,-0.030685,0.017234,-0.013945,-0.00094,-0.003923,0.003886,0.02041,0.004384,0.005695,-0.00773,-0.006606,-0.006107,0.009812,0.02021,0.002027,0.004777,0.0017 51,-0.00549,0.004822,0.000123,0.006868,-0.000718
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19,0.1161,0.144205,0.0 01131,-0.032946,0.015387,-0.012271,0.003525,-0.003,0.002045,0.015126,0.000325,0.003147,-0.00446,0.000275,-0.003122,-0.004375,0.001956,0.001014,0.004022,-0.007629,0.000125,-0.001113,0.000246,0.000723,-0.002634
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo20,0.118376,0.14319,0,-0.026163,0.014156,-0.010877,-0.002115,-0.000231,0.002454,0.020957,-0.001137,0.002997,-0.00669,-0.005505,-0.007872,0.003978,0.023078,-0.003421,-0.004148,-0.004502,-0.005615,-0.000618,0.001356,0.00253,-0.001197
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo21,0.110408,0.149283,-0.00264,-0.035207,0.025543,-0.009482,-0.00235,-0.001846,0.008999,0.022051,-0.001299,0.007643,-0.00996,-0.001101,-0.00855,-0.015115,-0.016168,0.003801,0.00264,-0.002001,0.000125,0.00136,0.005053,-0.002048,-0.006107
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22,0.113823,0.14319,-0.000377,-0.035207,0.014772,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.003231,0.003272,0.026971,0.000325,0.001499,-0.010704,0.00234,-0.010858,0.000265,0.01017,0.001647,0.004399,0.0011 26,0.000125,0.007048,0.002095,0.005422,-0.001916
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo23,0.113823,0.153345,0 ,-0.0323,0.016311,-0.012271,-0.00188,-0.000462,-0.000409,0.020046,0.002436,-0.00045,-0.003717,0.003165,-0.009636,-0.010209,-0.014473,0.000253,-0.004399,-0.007629,-0.008984,0.00136,0.001109,-0.001325,-0.003832
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo9,0.10927,0.148267,-0.004903,-0.033592,0.012925,-0.012829,0.00188,-0.003692,0.004295,0.01877,-0.00406,0.001948,-0.002379,-0.008257,0.001629,-0.016839,-0.014864,-0.000633,0.002514,-0.003502,-0.0141,0.002473,0.000123,-0.001084,0.000718
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta1,0.134311,0.161469,0.04 5254,0.004845,0.049855,0.001952,-0.00517,0.005538,0.002659,0.02442,0.002598,0.00554 5,-0.019177,-0.014863,0.0076,-0.000133,0,-0.0019,0.004777,0.005503,0.01123,0.002968,-0.007518,0.002289,0.005748
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta10,0.132035,0.135065,0.0 36958,0.00323,0.039392,0,0.00517,0.003692,0.021066 ,0.019317,-0.00682,0.003897,-0.013082,-0.007569,0.008686,0.001061,-0.002999,-0.000253,0.002011,-0.002001,0.00836,-0.004081,-0.000986,0.015424,-0.005029
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta11,0.124067,0.144205,0.0 36581,-0.01292,0.0397,0.003347,-0.00564,0.002077,0.020043,0.016401,0.001299,0.0139 38,-0.019177,-0.008257,0.009908,0.011138,0.00678,0.002534,-0.00176,0.001751,0.004367,0.008408,-0.002342,0.004579,-0.012214
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta12,0.114961,0.149283,0.0 32432,0.018734,0.02739,0.001394,0.004935,-0.002538,-0.002863,0.018588,-0.006333,0.01124,-0.023042,-0.005505,0.013843,-0.008088,-0.007041,-0.000127,0.003394,-0.016508,0.016845,0.002226,-0.004437,0.010363,0.002275
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta14,0.126344,0.146236,0.0 33187,0.008075,0.035083,-0.00251,0.00564,0.002538,0.008795,0.026606,-0.001299,0.00045,-0.010704,-0.020506,0.011672,0.014187,0.016037,-0.00076,0.005782,-0.00075,-0.00287,0.00371,0.007395,0.010604,0.000359
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta15,0.127482,0.148267,0.0 47894,0.013566,0.036314,-0.006972,0.007285,0,0.01718,0.029887,-0.008444,-0.001798,-0.020961,-0.010322,0.002172,-0.001724,-0.007432,-0.001647,0.009176,0,0.009608,0.004699,-0.013434,0.003374,0.002275
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta16,0.125205,0.14319,0.03 8466,0.004199,0.032006,-0.01004,0.005405,0.000231,0.005113,0.019864,-0.000974,0.015286,-0.017839,-0.008257,0.019001,-0.004243,-0.010691,0.002787,0.002765,-0.011005,0.003743,0.007666,-0.004437,0,0.003952
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta17,0.124067,0.141159,0.0 36581,0.001615,0.038776,-0.008088,0.00329,0.005538,0.001227,0.029158,-0.011042,0.004646,-0.015758,-0.013487,-0.003936,0.016839,0.015907,0.003801,0.003645,-0.003001,-0.00574,-0.012736,0.007765,0.00723,-0.002874
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta18,0.129758,0.148267,0.0 38466,0.007752,0.039392,-0.003626,0.003525,-0.002308,0.012476,0.020046,-0.001299,0.00015,-0.009514,-0.002202,0.007465,-0.003978,-0.017732,0.002407,0.003771,0.000625,0.003993,0.004 081,-0.003081,0.003133,0.003592
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta19,0.125205,0.142174,0.0 39598,0.002584,0.038161,-0.00251,0.00564,0.005769,0.006749,0.017495,-0.015265,0.007793,-0.008028,-0.010872,0.0076,0.012861,0.014603,-0.005701,0.006788,0.001501,0.005241,0.001731,0.004 19,0.002048,-0.005628
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta2,0.129758,0.14319,0.044 5,0.00969,0.039084,-0.004462,0.00564,0.011307,0.007158,0.016948,-0.014453,0.005395,-0.013082,-0.00867,0.012758,0.011933,0.008736,-0.000633,0.004777,0.003752,0.019216,0.004575,0.002 835,0.020123,0.001916
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta20,0.126344,0.135065,0.0 30547,0.006137,0.029852,0.00251,0.009635,0.005538,-0.001432,0.024055,-0.012179,-0.004796,-0.01665,-0.011423,0.006107,0.005436,0.010952,-0.012289,0.002263,-0.001126,0.001373,0.005193,0.002711,0.00976,0.0003 59
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta21,0.122929,0.157407,0.0 34318,-0.001292,0.032621,-0.00502,-0.00188,0.000462,0.014726,0.018041,-0.003085,0.006444,-0.016055,-0.003165,0.005565,0.0118,0,0.009755,-0.004525,-0.011756,-0.000873,0.002844,0.004314,0.010604,0.004311
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta22,0.132035,0.141159,0.0 36204,-0.002907,0.028928,-0.003347,0.011986,0.009,0.004909,0.019499,0.002111 ,0.001948,-0.013379,-0.020368,0.002307,0.011535,0.020079,-0.003547,-0.002388,0.005503,-0.003369,0.001113,-0.000739,0.012893,0.00479
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta3,0.125205,0.142174,0.05 0911,0.007106,0.037545,0.001116,-0.00423,0.005077,0.01309,0.026789,-0.005359,-0.001049,-0.013082,-0.011698,0.009772,0.015248,0.001434,0.006714,0.001 131,-0.008129,-0.001497,0.000742,-0.007518,0.005061,-0.003473
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta4,0.122929,0.145221,0.03 5826,-0.00323,0.041546,-0.003904,-0.001175,0.001385,0.01493,0.029158,-0.007795,-0.000749,-0.016799,-0.00055,0.001629,0.017502,0.006389,0.003927,0.0211 17,-0.001626,0.007487,-0.00136,-0.007518,0.001205,-0.001916
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta6,0.12862,0.149283,0.041 106,0.011951,0.037545,0.005299,0.00235,0.005769,0. 012476,0.016401,-0.001299,0.009741,-0.008176,-0.010872,0.010043,-0.00716,-0.001956,0.001267,-0.000251,0.002626,-0.00262,0.005441,-0.000739,0.006868,-0.001676
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta7,0.126344,0.151314,0.03 9221,0.004522,0.03139,-0.000279,-0.001175,0.002308,0.015748,0.025513,-0.005196,0.004796,-0.010704,-0.012799,0.005565,0.012861,0.017732,0.000507,0.003 897,0.008754,-0.01148,-0.003586,0.012202,0.015424,-0.001916
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta8,0.129758,0.153345,0.04 6763,-0.002261,0.0397,0.006136,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.012885,0.020775,-0.000812,0.008243,-0.014569,-0.015414,0.000407,0.003978,0.017211,-0.005828,0.003142,0.006753,-0.001622,0.001855,-0.006902,0.009158,0.002395
Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta9,0.132035,0.144205,0.04 0352,0.013566,0.045239,-0.001952,-0.002115,0.000462,0.017589,0.020228,0.000325,0.007 493,-0.014717,-0.010322,0.011808,0.00411,0.015776,-0.006714,-0.002011,0.008379,-0.00287,0.003462,-0.000123,0.012652,0.001557
Italian_Apulia:ALP379,0.10927,0.144205,-0.003771,-0.046189,0.013849,-0.008088,-0.001175,0.001385,0.002863,0.025149,0.001786,0.006 294,-0.006392,0.002477,-0.012893,-0.009016,-0.004824,0.006841,0.002765,-0.005878,-0.008735,0.005935,0.006162,0.001205,-0.002155
Italian_Apulia:ALP583,0.105855,0.148267,-0.006034,-0.037468,0.012002,-0.012271,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.001841,0.01877,-0.001786,0.002098,-0.010704,0.002202,-0.00665,-0.012596,-0.004172,-0.00152,0.000754,-0.013632,-0.012852,0.003339,0.000246,-0.000964,-0.007903
Italian_Apulia:cera1,0.113823,0.149283,0.001131,-0.038114,0.016003,-0.013108,-0.002115,-0.002769,0.003681,0.019681,-0.006496,0.000599,-0.001784,0.003028,-0.002986,-0.011933,-0.01369,-0.0019,-0.004148,-0.009755,-0.009982,-0.006554,0.003328,-0.005181,-0.00467
Italian_Apulia:cera2,0.114961,0.149283,0.001131,-0.034884,0.01908,-0.011156,-0.005405,-0.005769,-0.000409,0.021686,0.001786,0.006744,-0.007879,-0.003853,-0.009229,0.01127,0.018645,0.004181,0.00088,0.00112 6,-0.00262,-0.000371,0.000986,0.001325,0.003592
Italian_Apulia:cera8,0.108132,0.146236,0.000754,-0.041344,0.020619,-0.013945,-0.00094,-0.002308,0.000818,0.019681,0.000325,0.006594,-0.00892,0,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.005867,0,-0.000503,-0.002876,0.000499,0.002968,0.000986,0.003856,-0.001197
Italian_Apulia:cera9,0.10927,0.151314,-0.003771,-0.035207,0.023081,-0.013945,0.00329,0.007154,0.004704,0.022597,0.0006 5,0.003297,-0.009514,0.00234,-0.008415,-0.001591,0.002608,-0.000253,0,-0.003377,-0.001497,0.006059,-0.003328,0.002169,-0.004071
Italian_Apulia:GS32,0.112685,0.147252,-0.006788,-0.041344,0.007694,-0.022311,0.00235,-0.000462,0.003272,0.018041,0.003573,0.006145,-0.012339,-0.002064,-0.011536,-0.000796,0.005998,-0.000127,-0.001634,-5e-04,-0.000125,-0.00507,0.007272,0.000723,0.007784
Italian_Apulia:GS34,0.114961,0.147252,0.000377,-0.03876,0.012002,-0.016733,-0.002585,-0.003,0.006954,0.023873,0.000487,0.003147,-0.003419,0.004954,-0.007329,-0.014585,-0.015516,0.002914,0.007416,-0.006878,-0.004617,0.007048,-0.004683,0.001325,-0.00012
Italian_Apulia:GS47,0.111547,0.146236,-0.00528,-0.040052,0.013849,-0.015897,-0.001175,-0.003461,0.004704,0.022415,-0.001137,0.005095,-0.004757,0.008808,-0.010179,-0.01485,-0.01017,0.001394,0.001131,-0.006003,-0.003119,0.008285,-0.005669,-0.003012,0.005987
Italian_Apulia:ITS7,0.10927,0.14319,0.004525,-0.036499,0.02462,-0.013666,-0.002585,-0.002077,0.003681,0.016766,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.007582,-0.003991,-0.002443,-0.002519,-0.00352,0.00228,0.00176,-0.005878,-0.003743,0.005688,0.001602,-0.000482,0.002515
Italian_Apulia:Pu2,0.112685,0.15436,0.000754,-0.039406,0.01508,-0.011156,0.00282,-0.000692,0.002659,0.015308,0.001786,0.000899,-0.0055,0.004129,-0.007193,0.001458,0.002738,-0.00076,0.015587,0,0.001373,0.001607,0.008258,0.00 5181,-0.005748
Italian_Apulia:Pu3,0.112685,0.152329,-0.011691,-0.046189,0.019696,-0.026774,-0.00329,-0.003,0.002454,0.018588,0.006983,0.003297,-0.006541,0.002615,-0.010858,-0.002917,0.003912,0.003547,0.00729,-5e-04,-0.005989,-0.006183,-0.00419,0.00482,-0.004191
Italian_Apulia:Pu45,0.112685,0.146236,-0.003394,-0.036499,0.016926,-0.011713,-0.00094,-0.003461,-0.003272,0.025149,-0.001461,0.006145,-0.011001,-0.005918,-0.009365,0.010077,0.026077,-0.0019,-0.002263,-0.003126,-0.000873,0.003339,-0.000986,0.000843,-0.00455
Italian_Apulia:Pu7,0.1161,0.153345,-0.008297,-0.041667,0.010771,-0.016733,-0.001175,0.000923,0.001432,0.021868,0.000487,0.006 294,-0.001635,-0.001376,-0.010858,-0.006232,0.003781,-0.001774,0.008045,-0.010755,-0.000749,0.003833,0.007888,0.005422,0.001078
Italian_Apulia:Pu8,0.09675,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.04845,0.01231,-0.019243,0.000235,-0.004384,0.006545,0.020775,-0.007957,-0.001948,0.000892,0.004542,-0.003936,-0.002652,0.007302,-0.003927,0.004148,-0.009254,-0.004118,-0.000495,0.008504,0.004338,0.005149
Italian_Basilicata:PG16,0.104717,0.142174,-0.010182,-0.044251,0.012925,-0.018128,0.00141,-0.003461,0.00225,0.022962,-0.004384,0.005095,-0.006541,0.001376,-0.009093,-0.004641,0.003912,-0.00228,0.00088,-0.008129,-0.002246,0.008779,-0.000739,-0.007591,0.005748
Italian_Basilicata:PG17,0.112685,0.153345,-0.008297,-0.038114,0.016003,-0.01255,0.000705,-0.000462,0.003068,0.019864,-0.005359,0.002997,-0.005946,-0.002752,-0.003393,0.00305,0.008214,-0.000887,0.007542,-0.002251,-0.004492,0.003833,-0.002218,0.011206,0.000359
Italian_Basilicata:PG18,0.118376,0.142174,-0.002263,-0.043928,0.013541,-0.013108,-0.001645,-0.006,0.003272,0.015308,0.002761,0.005395,-0.001189,-0.000138,-0.003122,0.000265,0.001434,0.00152,0.003645,-0.002501,-0.001996,0.000495,-0.004437,0.000843,-0.001916
Italian_Basilicata:PG19,0.105855,0.151314,-0.001886,-0.037468,0.018157,-0.013666,0.000235,-0.005538,0.008181,0.019681,-0.002273,0.001649,-0.010406,-0.00289,-0.0076,0.000265,0.004955,-0.000507,0.005154,-0.004627,0,0.000989,0.00456,0.009158,-0.007185
Italian_Basilicata:PG20,0.10927,0.147252,-0.00264,-0.045543,0.012618,-0.018407,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.007158,0.020775,0.005521,0.003747,-0.010555,0.003853,-0.012893,0.00053,0.007562,0.001267,0.003268,-0.004877,-0.00262,0.002597,0.009613,0.006145,0.003473
Italian_Basilicata:PG21,0.10927,0.144205,-0.002263,-0.033592,0.007386,-0.009482,0.001175,-0.001846,0.008999,0.01877,-0.001137,-0.000899,-0.004608,-0.000413,-0.014115,0.003713,0.005476,0.000507,0.003017,-0.007504,0.00549,-0.002349,-0.001602,0.000482,0.001916
Italian_Basilicata:PG22,0.111547,0.156392,-0.001508,-0.039083,0.008925,-0.013666,0.000705,0.002769,-0.004909,0.017312,-0.002436,0.002997,-0.007433,0.001376,-0.010858,-0.011933,-0.003129,-0.00152,-0.000251,-0.008754,-0.008235,0.005812,0.008134,0.000964,0.000479
Italian_Basilicata:PG24,0.104717,0.141159,-0.008674,-0.039729,0.016003,-0.018407,0.00423,0.003231,0.005931,0.019317,0.0035 73,0.000899,-0.007136,-0.00055,-0.006243,-0.007027,0.009518,-0.000507,0.006411,-0.005002,0.001747,-0.001607,0.00456,0.004699,0.005029
Italian_Basilicata:PG25,0.106994,0.142174,-0.007165,-0.042959,0.013849,-0.020638,0.00282,-0.000462,0.005113,0.019135,0.003735,0.005395,-0.010109,-0.006881,-0.014251,0.001591,0.014994,-0.000507,0.000628,-0.002501,-0.004617,0.001607,0.002835,-0.001687,-0.00479
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147,0.127482,0.152329,0.0358 26,-0.005491,0.034776,-0.003347,0.00705,0,0.005522,0.022051,-0.003735,0.010491,-0.013082,-0.007569,-0.003393,0.001458,0.008214,0.000887,0.004274,0.000 375,0.001872,0.001855,-0.000246,0.006868,0.000838
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01151,0.127482,0.150298,0.0392 21,-0.011951,0.042777,-0.001116,0.001175,0.005769,0.012271,0.03262,-0.002761,0.010491,-0.017988,0.000826,0.001493,-0.017767,-0.014603,-0.00228,0.005028,-0.01138,-0.000374,-0.002226,-0.005916,-0.001928,0.005029
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152,0.120652,0.152329,0.0248 9,-0.010659,0.032929,0.000837,0,0.003692,0.013294,0.0 26606,-0.001624,0.002698,-0.00773,-0.007569,-0.002986,0.00053,0.002477,0.00038,0.002388,-0.002626,-0.007362,-0.002473,-0.010476,0.008917,0.000479
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153,0.125205,0.149283,0.0275 3,-0.014535,0.03693,-0.006414,-0.00329,0.004384,0.009204,0.028976,0,0.002098,-0.011893,-0.005643,-0.00285,-0.004508,0.002347,0.003927,0.007793,-0.003377,-0.00287,0.001978,-0.005669,0.002651,0.002155
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155,0.118376,0.149283,0.0260 21,-0.01615,0.033545,-0.003347,0.00047,-0.005307,0.013499,0.028064,0.001137,0.008243,-0.013528,-0.011423,-0.009636,-0.00053,-0.000261,0.00038,0.006285,-0.010755,0.003494,0.000742,0.001356,0.00241,-0.003712
Italian_Calabria:ALP582,0.09675,0.139128,-0.015839,-0.050388,0.014156,-0.014781,-0.00282,-0.008769,0.00409,0.028064,-0.00065,0.004796,-0.007136,-0.004266,-0.011536,-0.00305,0.005607,0.000507,0.005154,-0.005002,-0.003868,0.003339,-0.003574,0.00012,0.001437
Italian_Calabria:ALP596,0.103579,0.149283,-0.010936,-0.047481,0.014156,-0.017012,0.00047,0.002077,0.006749,0.016583,0,0.00 015,-0.007284,-0.002064,-0.008143,-0.00053,0.009518,-0.00114,0.002891,-0.003627,-0.001497,-0.003586,-0.001479,0.000482,-0.003113
Italian_Calabria:BEL57,0.108132,0.150298,-0.009051,-0.04199,0.009232,-0.003347,-0.004935,-0.002769,0.002659,0.019864,0.001949,0.003447,-0.002081,0.003441,-0.009229,-0.012198,0.005346,0.003547,0.007416,-5e-04,-0.002496,-0.006925,0.00456,0.010724,0.002036
Italian_Campania:CMP_b001_2,0.101303,0.144205,-0.013576,-0.04845,0.007694,-0.02761,-0.00376,-0.006692,0.000409,0.018953,-0.003573,0.002548,-0.006838,-0.003716,-0.004207,0.002652,0.01017,0.00228,-0.003142,-0.005753,0.002246,0.000989,0.00419,-0.00012,0.006586
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2,0.105855,0.152329,-0.012445,-0.048127,0.016311,-0.007809,0.000235,0.002308,0.005727,0.019317,-0.004384,-0.003147,-0.002825,0.00867,-0.011943,-0.010209,-0.005867,-0.00152,0.003771,-0.014132,-0.007487,0.000742,0.006039,0.001566,-0.007424
Italian_Campania:CMP_b003_2,0.104717,0.153345,-0.012068,-0.0323,0.013233,-0.011713,-0.00188,-0.001846,0.003068,0.027335,0.000487,-0.000899,-0.007582,0.001789,-0.002036,-0.011005,-0.00691,0.003927,0.015587,-0.003126,-0.009858,0.008779,-0.003451,0.009158,0.005748
Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2,0.110408,0.146236,-0.010559,-0.042959,0.012925,-0.017291,-0.005405,-0.004384,0.005931,0.02442,0.003897,0.001499,0.0007 43,0.001927,-0.007329,0.005569,0.001304,-0.006081,-0.004399,0.003627,-0.012353,0.004328,0.005793,0.005061,-0.00479
Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2,0.113823,0.155376,-0.015085,-0.04522,0.010771,-0.02008,0.00564,0.007154,0.012885,0.020957,0.00682 ,0.001349,-0.007136,0.00055,-0.017101,-0.00769,-0.00691,0.005068,0.010684,-0.002126,-0.018093,0.003091,0.002711,0.005302,0.003113
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2,0.100164,0.150298,-0.007165,-0.052649,0.02462,-0.019243,-0.00235,-0.008538,0.010022,0.028611,0.003085,-0.004946,-0.007284,-0.005643,-0.010043,0.004243,0.009127,-0.004434,0.004902,-0.008254,-0.001123,0.000371,0.006409,0.001928,0.003592
Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2,0.113823,0.145221,-0.000754,-0.039083,0.018157,-0.016733,-0.007285,-0.009923,0.005318,0.022597,-0.003573,0,-0.0055,0.001101,0.000543,-0.000928,0.010691,0.006841,-0.00352,-0.007253,-0.005116,0.007296,-0.002218,0.002771,-0.000599
Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2,0.108132,0.147252,-0.010182,-0.042313,0.014464,-0.01255,0.0047,-0.000692,0.001227,0.022233,-0.000325,0.001349,-0.009068,-0.009221,0.005836,0.002917,0.002738,0,0.004777,-0.007504,0.003619,0.000247,-0.002711,0.003735,0.002036
Italian_Campania:ITS2,0.113823,0.137096,-0.004525,-0.038114,0.00277,-0.013945,0.00282,-0.002538,-0.001841,0.016948,-0.004384,0.006894,-0.005798,-0.006055,-0.007872,0.002387,-0.000782,0.002914,0.006159,-0.001876,-0.004742,0.000866,-0.001725,-0.007109,0.002754
Italian_Campania:ITS4,0.100164,0.153345,-0.010182,-0.039406,0.010463,-0.015339,0.003995,-0.004384,0.001227,0.023873,-0.003085,0.006744,0.000595,-0.000688,-0.004343,-0.002784,0.001043,-0.004434,0.005154,0.006878,-0.00287,0.003833,0.003451,-0.000361,-0.000958
Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR,0.108132,0.146236,-0.005657,-0.039729,0.017542,-0.011992,0.00141,0.002538,0.007772,0.021504,-0.001624,0.002098,-0.00223,-0.004817,-0.005972,0.001061,-0.000913,0.001267,0.005782,-0.003502,0.001123,0.000618,-0.001602,0.003615,-0.002395
Italian_Campania:NaN128LA,0.10927,0.15436,-0.003771,-0.04845,0.013541,-0.011992,-0.005875,-0.002308,0.001636,0.019317,-0.000325,0.003297,-0.0055,-0.007844,-0.007057,-0.004508,-0.01369,-0.000127,0.004022,-0.003126,-0.002496,-0.000371,-0.002588,-0.003253,0.001796
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST,0.10927,0.146236,-0.009051,-0.052003,0.012002,-0.018407,-0.002115,0.002769,0.002659,0.027153,0.004709,0.001 199,-0.01115,-0.007432,-0.009772,0.003315,0.019949,-0.004307,0.001131,-0.001126,0.003369,-0.000742,-0.001356,-0.000482,-0.000239
Italian_Campania:NaN207MM,0.111547,0.15436,-0.009051,-0.04522,0.014772,-0.01757,-0.002115,-0.007384,0.003068,0.018406,0.004547,0.004196,-0.001784,-0.008257,-0.005972,0.012861,0.017863,-0.005068,-0.004651,0.001126,-0.004866,-0.002968,-0.001109,0.003133,0.002874
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR,0.10927,0.150298,-0.001508,-0.039083,0.016003,-0.01506,0.001175,0.000231,0.008181,0.024055,0.0014 61,0.003147,-0.008622,0.000138,-0.003122,-0.010872,-0.009388,0.003294,0.004399,-0.007003,-0.008111,0.00136,-0.002095,0.001205,-0.002754
Italian_Campania:NaN238DM,0.111547,0.148267,-0.002263,-0.039729,0.015695,-0.013666,-0.005405,-0.001615,-0.001636,0.023326,0.003248,0.006744,-0.008474,-0.003716,-0.006786,-0.00053,0.001825,-0.001647,0.001634,-0.001751,0.005116,0.004451,-0.006409,0.000723,-0.001557
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS,0.101303,0.146236,-0.015839,-0.047481,0.007386,-0.020359,-0.00329,-0.008077,0.004295,0.018224,0.003573,0.001199,-0.003717,0.00234,-0.009772,-0.001326,0.009388,-0.00228,-0.003017,-0.007879,-0.006988,0.003339,0.001849,-0.000602,-0.003353
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM,0.108132,0.14319,-0.003394,-0.042313,0.017542,-0.012271,0.001645,-0.000923,-0.00225,0.026424,-0.001624,0.005845,-0.007433,0.002477,-0.014658,-0.001591,0.010691,-0.000633,0.003268,-0.005002,-0.006239,0.00371,0.007272,0.00494,0.004071
Italian_Campania:NaN293SF,0.110408,0.147252,-0.008297,-0.041667,0.01231,-0.013666,-0.00094,-0.007154,0.001432,0.017677,0.001949,0.004646,-0.006392,-0.001927,-0.003664,0.016574,0.011735,0.001014,0.007165,-0.002251,0.001123,-0.000989,-0.003204,0.002169,0.001676
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC,0.106994,0.147252,-0.00528,-0.040375,0.024004,-0.016733,-0.000235,0.001385,0.005113,0.025331,0.002111,0.000 899,-0.005054,-0.002064,-0.005565,-0.006629,0.002868,-0.001267,-0.005782,-0.004877,-0.004243,-0.000866,0.005916,-0.001928,-0.002515
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC,0.108132,0.153345,-0.012068,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.015618,0.001645,-0.002538,0.011453,0.023691,0.007145,0.002248,-0.001041,0.009771,-0.008822,-0.00769,-0.010822,0.002787,0.002388,-0.008254,-0.004243,0.0115,-0.000616,0.005784,0.003473
Italian_Campania:NaN58AC,0.110408,0.142174,-0.009805,-0.041021,0.008309,-0.021196,0.003055,-0.004384,0.006749,0.022233,-0.001299,0.004796,-0.005798,-0.009358,-0.004207,0.013789,0.016689,-0.000507,-0.002011,-0.006003,-0.00549,-0.004822,0.003574,0.010001,-0.00455
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG,0.106994,0.147252,-0.016593,-0.049742,0.012618,-0.02259,0.001175,0.005538,0.0045,0.021322,0.000325 ,0.003147,0.000892,0.003716,-0.003936,-0.013524,-0.008084,0.003041,0.006913,-0.006253,-0.005241,0.002473,0.010599,-0.00253,0.000838
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM,0.103579,0.141159,-0.014708,-0.051034,0.01231,-0.014223,0.00235,-0.003,0.003681,0.018953,-0.000325,0.001199,-0.00446,-0.002752,-0.011672,-0.004906,0.003912,-0.006334,0.00088,-0.001251,-0.005116,-0.002844,-0.003328,0.00253,-0.000479
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew1,0.088782,0.139128,-0.018102,-0.053618,0.010463,-0.021753,-0.006345,0,0.009204,0.025878,0.002111,3e-04,0,-0.007156,-0.005022,0.005436,0.00352,0.000887,0.002765,0.0056 28,-0.005241,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.002289,0.008981
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10,0.091058,0.141159,-0.021873,-0.059755,0.010771,-0.021753,-0.00282,-0.006461,0.016157,0.021139,0.010068,0.001499,0.001 041,-0.004954,-0.007329,0.009281,0.013951,-0.004054,-0.004902,0.00025,-0.003494,0.002473,-0.0053,0.003856,-0.004191
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2,0.09675,0.146236,-0.012445,-0.057494,0.011079,-0.031236,-0.006815,0.000462,0.011249,0.019317,0.007957,-0.000599,-0.000446,-0.005367,-0.005836,-0.000796,0.007432,-0.007095,0.004274,-0.006878,-0.006364,0.004822,-0.000739,0.007953,-0.001437
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3,0.091058,0.155376,-0.026398,-0.065892,0.012002,-0.023148,-0.00564,-0.000692,0.013908,0.022051,0.008119,3e-04,0.004906,0.001789,-0.008143,-0.009944,-0.003129,0.002407,-0.003268,-0.005503,-0.001248,-0.001731,-0.002711,0,0.005868
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4,0.08992,0.153345,-0.018856,-0.059109,0.00954,-0.027331,-0.003995,-0.007615,0.017998,0.01713,0.003573,-0.001199,0.002973,-0.004954,-0.003936,-0.011005,-0.019818,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.003001,-0.002496,-0.004451,0.008381,-0.003856,0.005269
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5,0.091058,0.147252,-0.032809,-0.065892,0.00677,-0.023985,-0.002115,-0.003,0.011658,0.016948,0.004872,0.001199,0.001784 ,0.003303,-0.010858,-0.013524,-0.011735,-0.003294,-0.001257,-0.010005,-0.005865,0.005193,0.000863,0.002169,0.002994
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew6,0.104717,0.139128,-0.008297,-0.040698,0.010463,-0.021196,-0.00047,0,0.011249,0.013668,0.001299,-0.003147,0.00892,0.002202,-0.003529,0.005436,0.00665,-0.000887,-0.001508,-0.001376,-0.005366,-0.003462,-0.001232,0.00241,0.002036
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7,0.101303,0.139128,-0.025644,-0.055879,0.013541,-0.03012,0.00047,-0.000923,0.009408,0.015855,0.003085,-0.001798,0.002825,-0.007432,-0.012215,0.011005,0.016037,-0.002787,-0.003771,-0.003627,-0.000749,-0.008532,-0.001972,0.001687,0.002634
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8,0.100164,0.148267,-0.007542,-0.052649,0.008001,-0.022311,-0.00611,-0.005307,0.013703,0.018041,0.001461,0.001499,-0.001784,0.000688,-0.003936,-0.005436,-0.020861,-0.00152,-0.002263,-0.00988,-0.003619,-0.002473,-0.001602,0.002892,-0.003113
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9,0.094473,0.147252,-0.014708,-0.053941,0.020311,-0.02259,-0.00611,-0.004384,0.014317,0.021322,0.002598,0.004046,0.001 338,-0.006881,-0.005293,-0.002784,-0.004042,0.004814,-0.000503,-0.001501,-0.004617,-0.000989,0.0053,0.004217,0.0097
Italian_Lazio:NOR24,0.114961,0.155376,0.000377,-0.032623,0.016003,-0.010319,-0.000235,0.000692,-0.000205,0.024602,0.000162,0.004346,-0.013528,-0.012386,-0.00475,0.009016,0.012778,-0.001647,0.003645,0.002001,-0.001497,0.002349,-0.001849,-0.001807,-0.000838
Italian_Lazio:NOR28,0.117238,0.148267,0.00264,-0.036499,0.020004,-0.014502,0.003525,0.000692,0.00409,0.021686,0.0043 84,0.002098,-0.003865,-0.000963,-0.0038,0.004375,-0.004172,0.000253,0.00352,-0.005878,-0.001248,0.001237,-0.000739,-0.000241,-0.001796
Italian_Lazio:PG28,0.117238,0.156392,0.011691,-0.034238,0.026466,-0.01506,0.00235,-0.001846,0.015953,0.025695,0.001137,0.00045,-0.007433,-0.006193,-0.0095,-0.008221,-0.009127,0.001394,0.000628,-0.011756,0,0.007914,0.005669,-0.00012,0.000239
Italian_Lazio:PG30,0.10927,0.150298,0.012068,-0.036822,0.022773,-0.006414,0.00423,0.002538,0.007567,0.021868,-0.000487,0.004496,-0.005798,-0.008808,-0.009365,0.011403,-0.000391,-0.002027,-0.000503,-0.004627,-0.008235,0.001978,-0.00456,0.000723,0.000479

----------


## matadworf

Italian_Liguria:ALP099,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Lombardy:ALP288,0.121791,0.145221,0.029415 ,-0.011628,0.029852,-0.006414,0.001175,0.004154,0.011453,0.021504,0.002 598,0.009891,-0.014717,-0.003578,0.000407,-0.002784,0.007171,0.001014,0.00352,-0.006253,-0.00262,-0.004822,0.003081,0.003735,0.00012
Italian_Lombardy:BGD103,0.125205,0.148267,0.029415 ,-0.006137,0.03139,-0.006136,-0.00141,-0.006923,0.01084,0.030251,0.000325,0.007194,-0.011447,-0.001376,-0.008007,-0.013524,-0.016559,0.002407,0.011816,0.000375,-0.00025,0.008037,-0.001972,0.003253,0.003353
Italian_Lombardy:BGD28,0.12862,0.148267,0.030547,-0.015504,0.037853,-0.00502,-0.00235,-0.000462,0.010226,0.030069,-0.005521,0.01094,-0.013677,-0.009634,0.003257,-0.002387,-0.004303,0,0.003142,-0.000875,0.000125,-0.003091,0.003204,0.004217,-0.005389
Italian_Lombardy:BGD301,0.121791,0.148267,0.024513 ,-0.01938,0.033545,-0.011713,0.00282,0.002769,0.009408,0.03827,-0.009581,0.009741,-0.017393,-0.00578,0.000814,-0.004243,-0.01017,0.001394,0.002011,-0.01038,-0.000749,0.007666,-0.003081,0.000361,0.004191
Italian_Lombardy:BGD31,0.125205,0.149283,0.026021,-0.01615,0.031083,-0.009482,0.003055,0.000462,0.010022,0.029522,-0.000325,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.003165,-0.000814,-0.016441,-0.017863,0.004054,-0.003268,-0.003377,-0.007736,-0.001607,-0.00456,0.003735,0.001916
Italian_Marche:MarABG010D,0.112685,0.151314,0.0086 74,-0.026163,0.022158,-0.013666,0.00141,0.004154,0.01493,0.026789,-0.002436,0.005245,-0.006987,-0.000275,-0.009772,-0.008353,-0.01343,0.001394,0.000251,-0.011881,0.001747,0.003833,-0.001109,0.000964,0.006586
Italian_Marche:MarABI020D,0.113823,0.15436,0.01470 8,-0.029393,0.017849,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004384,0.005318,0.022233,0.003735,0.003747,-0.009366,-0.009634,-0.0019,0.000265,0.000782,-0.003167,0.006159,-0.006378,0.002995,0.004451,0.00912,0.002651,-0.002874
Italian_Marche:MarABN020D,0.118376,0.14319,0.01055 9,-0.033592,0.023697,-0.014223,0.002585,-0.004615,0.0045,0.020046,0.000162,0.001798,-0.009663,-0.003853,-0.001086,0.005171,0.009648,-0.000887,-0.006788,-0.002126,0.000624,0.000247,0.001602,0.008676,0.005 269
Italian_Marche:MarABP050D,0.118376,0.152329,0.0037 71,-0.034238,0.024004,-0.010877,0.007755,-0.001615,0.006136,0.024237,-0.001137,0.007343,-0.009366,-0.008808,0.00095,-0.000796,0.001434,-0.001774,0.003017,-0.004002,-0.000873,-0.000124,0.00456,0.000241,-0.006826
Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D,0.117238,0.147252,0.0075 42,-0.030039,0.021542,-0.014223,0.00141,0,0.012476,0.02041,0.005684,0.006 894,-0.005798,0.001789,-0.001764,-0.008486,-0.005215,0.006081,0.003771,-0.006128,0.000624,-0.000247,-0.000739,0.006507,-0.002994
Italian_Marche:MarABU050D,0.117238,0.139128,0.0147 08,-0.023256,0.024004,-0.006414,0.000705,-0.001154,0.00409,0.024237,-0.002598,0.008842,-0.013231,-0.00289,0.001764,0.005569,0.001434,-0.005574,0.004777,-0.002626,0.003369,0.003833,0.000616,0.00964,0.0002 39
Italian_Marche:MarABY030D,0.118376,0.15436,0.00603 4,-0.036176,0.015387,-0.015339,0.000705,-0.004846,0.0045,0.017312,-0.007795,0.005095,-0.011298,0.005643,-0.002714,-0.002652,0.003912,0.003547,-0.004902,-0.001251,-0.000749,0.003462,-0.002095,0.003615,-0.007903
Italian_Marche:MarACM040D,0.119514,0.147252,0.0015 08,-0.036822,0.017234,-0.010877,-0.005875,-0.003461,0.004909,0.020046,0.002761,0.001649,-0.008771,0.00234,-0.0095,-0.01485,-0.014994,0.002154,0.000754,-0.006003,0.003868,0.002349,0.000863,-0.008917,-0.007424
Italian_Marche:MarACO060D,0.119514,0.146236,0.0105 59,-0.028424,0.021542,-0.009203,-0.002585,-0.009461,0.003272,0.024237,0.002923,0.000599,-0.005798,-0.003165,-0.002443,-0.01127,-0.007823,-0.003674,0.005405,5e-04,-0.002371,0.005935,-0.000986,-0.005784,-0.001317
Italian_Marche:MarACO100D,0.120652,0.152329,0.0011 31,-0.033269,0.018157,-0.010877,0,-0.004846,0.007772,0.018588,0.000487,0.007194,-0.006392,0.003578,-0.003122,0.002519,0.004303,0.004687,0.006034,0.000 375,-0.004742,0.001855,0.003821,0.002048,-0.003832
Italian_Marche:MarACV100D,0.119514,0.142174,0.0015 08,-0.021641,0.023697,-0.008646,-0.002115,-0.006923,0.001432,0.018588,-0.002761,0.003897,-0.005946,-0.00289,-0.004207,-0.006629,0.002347,0.000507,0.00264,-0.004252,0.001872,-0.000495,0.003451,0.010242,-0.007185
Italian_Marche:MarACW030D,0.121791,0.151314,0.0165 93,-0.028101,0.025851,-0.006414,-0.001645,0.002308,0.010226,0.016948,-0.002923,0.01079,-0.010852,-0.007294,-0.000407,0.001458,0.002477,0.002534,-0.001131,-0.000625,0.00262,0.004699,-0.000246,0.003856,0.003233
Italian_Marche:MarACW080D,0.119514,0.141159,0.0101 82,-0.024871,0.01508,-0.006693,-0.001645,-0.008538,-0.002454,0.020775,-0.003573,0.002248,-0.01219,-0.005367,-0.008415,0.011933,0.018906,0.002534,0.00176,0.0012 51,-0.007612,0.003215,-0.002958,0.008555,0.000718
Italian_Marche:MarACY030D,0.114961,0.146236,0.0045 25,-0.030685,0.022773,-0.011435,0.00141,-0.002769,0.006749,0.021686,-0.000487,-0.001349,-0.00669,-0.001927,0.000814,-0.002121,0.002999,0.004434,0.003394,0.003502,-0.006613,0.001855,-0.001479,0.010001,0.004071
Italian_Marche:MarADC050D,0.118376,0.150298,0.0124 45,-0.023579,0.029852,-0.006136,0.0047,-0.001385,0.001432,0.023144,0.002111,0.001199,-0.009514,0.003165,-0.00285,0.002387,-0.00013,0.00152,0.008799,-0.006253,-0.000998,-0.000495,-0.00037,0.001205,-0.005389
Italian_Marche:MarADG030D,0.112685,0.152329,0.0131 99,-0.024548,0.01908,-0.006972,0.004935,-0.002308,0.012885,0.021686,-0.003573,0.004946,-0.004906,0.002477,-0.007872,-0.011403,-0.012778,0.005828,0.009176,-0.007253,-0.009234,0.004946,-0.003821,0.006145,-0.001078
Italian_Molise:PG26,0.10927,0.15436,0.00264,-0.032623,0.013849,-0.01506,0.003525,-0.004615,0.003886,0.014943,0.005359,0.005995,-0.010704,-0.001239,-0.007736,-0.001856,0.00352,0.001014,0.001634,-0.007253,0.001747,0.005688,0.004067,0.003253,-0.000958
Italian_Molise:PG27,0.1161,0.139128,0,-0.034238,0.017234,-0.011435,0.005405,-0.001385,0.000614,0.023873,0.002111,0.000749,-0.0055,-0.004129,-0.006515,-0.004375,0.00665,0.00266,0.003017,-0.008754,-0.004492,0.003339,-0.005669,0.003856,0.001197
Italian_Northeast:ALP081,0.125205,0.146236,0.03431 8,0.000969,0.032621,0.00251,0.002585,-0.002769,0.012885,0.020228,0.00065,0.005545,-0.010704,-0.007982,-0.005157,0.000663,0.020861,-0.00152,0.00176,0.001126,-0.004118,-0.002102,-0.000986,0.00723,-0.002874
Italian_Northeast:ALP093,0.127482,0.14319,0.036204 ,0.005491,0.030467,-0.000279,0.00282,0.003461,0.001841,0.010934,-0.006008,0.003447,-0.007582,-0.000826,-0.003936,0.005171,0.007562,-0.001394,0.000251,-0.005127,-0.007487,-0.000866,-0.001232,0.011447,0.001557
Italian_Northeast:ALP220,0.126344,0.140143,0.04299 2,0.016473,0.040931,0.012829,0.00423,0.004846,0.00 6954,0.011481,-0.00341,0.00015,-0.004014,0.00055,-0.009636,0.014452,0.01695,0.001647,0.008296,0.0040 02,-0.006863,0.000124,-0.002342,0.00253,0.007544
Italian_Northeast:ALP233,0.122929,0.151314,0.03017 ,-0.001938,0.036007,0.000558,0.003995,0.001846,0.010 84,0.016583,-0.004872,0.007643,-0.004757,0.010046,-0.0038,-0.004508,-0.004563,0.005068,-0.000377,-0.008504,0.003119,0.005564,-0.000739,0.000482,0.000718
Italian_Northeast:ALP235,0.124067,0.137096,0.02866 1,0.000323,0.032006,0.002789,0.00094,0.003692,0.00 1227,0.01713,-0.000325,0.004796,-0.013825,-0.009771,-0.001357,0.009944,0.016037,-0.000633,0.000628,-0.000625,-0.001622,0.001855,-0.005669,0.007109,-0.003233
Italian_Northeast:ALP280,0.125205,0.151314,0.03092 4,0.001938,0.036314,0.001673,0.00846,-0.000692,0.003886,0.018588,-0.004709,0.007493,-0.015758,-0.002752,0.000407,-0.010607,-0.015516,0.001267,0.002514,-0.000125,-0.004991,0.005564,-0.006409,0.008917,-0.002275
Italian_Northeast:ALP346,0.124067,0.138112,0.03243 2,-0.000323,0.033237,-0.000558,-0.00094,0.003231,0.00409,0.018041,-0.00682,0.006294,-0.007136,-0.002615,-0.000407,-0.000398,-0.004042,0.001647,0.004902,5e-04,-0.004243,-0.003586,0.002095,0.008435,0.001437
Italian_Northeast:ALP354,0.12862,0.144205,0.034695 ,0,0.033545,-0.003904,0.008225,0.006923,0.00859,0.018224,-0.005521,0.002248,-0.010109,-0.009909,-0.005022,0.006762,0.021644,-0.000507,0.008296,-0.002501,-0.002121,-0.003215,-0.000246,0.002771,-0.007424
Italian_Northeast:ALP435,0.122929,0.139128,0.04110 6,0.010982,0.037238,0.003347,-0.00047,-0.001846,0.003068,0.007472,-0.002436,0.002997,-0.004162,0.001376,-0.005565,0.001458,0.001825,-0.001014,0.004651,-0.003877,-0.001497,-0.000742,-0.003574,-0.006507,0
Italian_Northeast:ALP506,0.127482,0.145221,0.03846 6,-0.007106,0.040931,-0.000279,0.00517,0.000231,0.008181,0.014943,0.0011 37,0.006145,-0.017245,0.004129,-0.00285,-0.0179,-0.011995,-0.000127,0.004525,-0.002876,-0.004991,0.001113,-0.00419,0.005784,-0.001437
Italian_Northeast:KF1800761,0.12862,0.147252,0.032 809,-0.005168,0.03693,0.001394,0.003055,0.002308,0.0110 44,0.019681,-0.002923,0.008393,-0.0055,0.000826,-0.002172,-0.000928,-0.005346,0.003801,0.003771,-0.004752,0.000749,0.003462,-0.000616,0.006507,0.001916
Italian_Northeast:KF1803129,0.126344,0.145221,0.04 2615,-0.001292,0.036007,0.000837,-0.000235,0.001154,0.005727,0.021868,-0.00065,0.003297,-0.003865,0,-0.010315,-0.003182,0.005085,-0.002027,0.003897,-0.000125,-0.003619,-0.002102,-0.000246,0.000723,0.002395
Italian_Northeast:KF2700922,0.125205,0.142174,0.03 3564,0.003553,0.037238,0.005578,0.001175,0.001615, 0.008181,0.013668,0.004872,3e-04,-0.007136,0.005505,-0.011401,0.009679,0.017993,0.000127,0.003142,-0.002501,-0.01123,0.002968,-0.002711,0.00735,0.001796
Italian_Northeast:KF2700960,0.124067,0.139128,0.03 9598,0.000323,0.032621,0.001952,0.005405,0.004615, 0.009817,0.014397,-0.002111,0.008093,-0.005649,0.006193,-0.00285,-0.005569,-0.01017,0.006081,0.007416,-0.011005,-0.000499,-0.001978,0.001725,0.001205,0.00491
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont119,0.12862,0.147252 ,0.017725,-0.01292,0.034468,-0.009482,0.00893,0.002077,0.017794,0.032438,0.0035 73,0.005545,-0.010852,0.004817,-0.003529,0.001856,-0.000261,0.004054,0.004777,-0.004877,-0.004866,0.000989,-0.002588,-0.002892,0.003952
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127,0.119514,0.14522 1,0.028661,-0.000969,0.03139,0.001116,0.005875,0.005769,0.0092 04,0.024055,-0.005359,0.007194,-0.00892,-0.006744,-0.002036,0.001724,0.001956,0.002914,0.005028,-0.004252,-0.000749,0.003957,0.000863,0.002892,-0.002395
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136,0.121791,0.14522 1,0.018856,-0.017119,0.028621,-0.004462,0,-0.001154,0.006545,0.024237,-0.003735,0.007793,-0.005203,-0.002202,-0.000679,-0.0118,-0.009518,-0.000633,-0.000628,-0.002001,-0.007612,-0.000495,0.000616,0.007591,0.00012
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont145,0.114961,0.14826 7,0.014331,-0.018734,0.023389,-0.008646,-0.003055,-0.006461,0.003886,0.02278,-0.002111,0.003597,-0.013974,0.002202,0.003393,-0.003713,0.004433,0.001267,-0.002891,-0.009254,-0.002121,0.000124,-0.006409,0.006627,-0.004071
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149,0.122929,0.15131 4,0.013953,-0.018734,0.027697,-0.004741,0.00282,-0.002077,0.004295,0.021686,0.001299,0.002698,-0.012636,-0.015551,-0.006379,0.002652,0.008736,-0.000633,0.002891,-0.001751,-0.000125,0.002102,-0.000616,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont43,0.118376,0.152329 ,0.019233,-0.018088,0.02462,-0.010598,0.003055,-0.003231,0.003477,0.027153,0.005359,0.01154,-0.016055,-0.007569,0.001629,-0.011933,0.002086,0.003674,-0.000377,-0.008629,-0.004118,-0.001484,-0.002711,0.004699,-0.000718
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63,0.1161,0.140143,0 .023004,-0.018088,0.037853,-0.003904,0.00094,0.000692,0.006954,0.01877,-0.003897,0.006594,-0.008474,-0.012111,-0.000136,0.000928,-0.002086,-0.00228,0.002263,-0.005753,-0.004991,0.003833,-0.000123,0.000361,-0.00479
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont98,0.125205,0.153345 ,0.029793,-0.017119,0.031698,-0.003904,0.004465,0.005077,0.012067,0.030433,0.001 299,0.007943,-0.00773,0.00055,-0.002443,-0.009546,-0.00678,0.002027,0.002514,-0.003377,0.001747,0.002597,-0.009244,0.007832,0.001078
Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont154,0.1161,0.145221,0.015 085,-0.013566,0.020311,-0.01255,0.002585,-0.000462,0.0045,0.01713,-0.000812,0.005395,-0.004906,-0.007707,-0.0019,-0.001326,0.003781,0.001014,0.001634,0.001,-0.001747,0.002844,-0.002342,0.005422,-0.005868
Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61,0.129758,0.145221,0.02 8284,-0.010659,0.032621,-0.001673,0.00282,0.001385,0.005931,0.022597,0.0021 11,0.005245,-0.010109,-0.000826,-0.003664,0.00411,0.008866,-0.002407,0.006536,0.000625,-0.001123,0.004081,-0.001479,0.005061,-0.002874
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070,0.130897,0.142174,0.037335,0.003553,0 .041546,0.001116,0.005875,0.001615,0.010226,0.0231 44,-0.001786,0.002997,-0.010555,-0.001376,0.004614,-0.009281,-0.015907,0.003674,0.004651,-0.001751,-0.001248,-0.001484,-0.002958,0.001446,0.000838
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071,0.121791,0.14319,0.044877,0.007429,0. 038469,0.00251,0.004465,0.001615,0.010226,0.019317 ,-0.002598,0.006145,-0.013974,-0.005367,0.000407,0.005038,0.004303,0.00114,0.0052 79,-0.007754,0.00025,0.000247,0.000493,-0.000602,-0.007784
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP114,0.122929,0.144205,0.027153,-0.018411,0.034468,-0.012271,0.002585,0.006461,0.009817,0.029704,0.001 786,0.002548,-0.014123,-0.011698,-0.005972,0.011933,0.012126,0.003801,0.001383,0.003 877,-0.001497,0.006059,-0.000863,-0.003012,-0.001796
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200,0.118376,0.147252,0.023004,-0.007106,0.035699,-0.01004,0.00235,0.000923,0.006749,0.020957,-0.007307,0.006444,-0.011298,0.002202,-0.004072,-0.003447,0.002999,0.001647,0.005908,0.00075,0.0001 25,0.005317,0.001109,0.001446,-0.007305
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259,0.125205,0.151314,0.035826,-0.004845,0.043393,-0.000558,0.006815,0.006231,0.015748,0.025331,-0.002761,0.009741,-0.014717,-0.005643,-0.000136,-0.003315,0.003781,-0.000887,0.002263,-0.002001,-0.004118,0.005441,-0.003944,0.00494,-0.002395
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395,0.132035,0.147252,0.037712,-0.004199,0.029544,-0.002231,0.001645,0.004384,0.013703,0.02606,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.015907,0.001239,-0.000407,-0.002121,0.004042,0,0.008799,-0.005503,-0.000374,-0.000124,0.003821,-0.001928,-0.003473
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420,0.124067,0.146236,0.036581,-0.000969,0.037545,-0.002231,-0.000235,-0.000231,0.01268,0.022597,-0.006333,-0.000749,-0.013528,0.000826,0.0019,-0.011933,-0.007171,0.00228,0.001634,-0.008754,-0.003119,0.004204,-0.001232,0.002169,-0.003832
Italian_Tuscany:MURLO114,0.117238,0.147252,0.01018 2,-0.019703,0.028313,-0.012829,-0.00376,0.000923,0.013499,0.030616,0.003573,0.0100 41,-0.00996,-0.003303,-0.002307,-0.002784,0.001565,0.00152,0.006411,-0.005378,-0.005615,-0.00272,-0.003081,-0.000241,-0.00455
Italian_Tuscany:NA20502,0.120652,0.149283,0.010559 ,-0.020349,0.030159,-0.007251,-0.001645,0.000692,0.007567,0.018041,-0.000974,0.006744,-0.015312,-0.004266,-0.000136,-0.005701,0.007562,0.001267,0.010684,-0.003126,0.00262,0.000989,0.000739,0.001928,-0.00467
Italian_Tuscany:NA20504,0.118376,0.140143,0.013199 ,-0.019057,0.027082,-0.009482,0.000705,0.002538,0.007567,0.02442,-0.000162,0.006294,-0.010852,-0.006744,-0.002036,0.014187,0.014733,0.001394,-0.00264,0.009254,0.000374,0.002226,-0.007888,0.001325,0.002155
Italian_Tuscany:NA20505,0.1161,0.156392,0.01961,-0.021318,0.028621,-0.009482,0.001645,0.003231,0.003068,0.027335,0,0.0 03897,-0.016204,-0.006881,-0.007872,-0.005967,0.011604,0.00114,0.003142,0.002501,-0.002745,0,-0.000493,-0.003735,-0.003712
Italian_Tuscany:NA20506,0.122929,0.141159,0.012068 ,-0.027132,0.01508,-0.009482,0.004465,-0.003461,0.004704,0.023326,0.000974,0.009292,-0.010258,-0.004954,-0.003393,0.005834,0.004172,0.003547,0.008925,-0.002626,-0.000499,0.000989,0.000616,0.018075,-0.007185
Italian_Tuscany:NA20508,0.117238,0.148267,0.010182 ,-0.020349,0.02185,-0.008088,-0.00423,0.000692,0.00634,0.020228,0.001137,0.00164 9,-0.01115,-0.005918,0.0038,0.001458,-0.001043,-0.001647,0.002011,-0.006253,0.000374,0.001607,-0.001849,0.005784,-0.003592
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27,0.120652,0.155376,0.0169 7,-0.024871,0.025851,-0.004741,0.002585,0.000923,0.008181,0.027153,-0.007145,0.008842,-0.013677,-0.003853,-0.003529,-0.005569,0.012386,-0.003167,-0.001257,-0.003252,-0.00287,0.004204,0.001725,0.005784,0.004071
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany38,0.114961,0.151314,0.0105 59,-0.020995,0.026159,-0.008925,0.003525,0.003,0.012271,0.024055,0.002436 ,0.004496,-0.014271,0.002615,0.00095,-0.006762,-0.01356,-0.001267,0.006034,-0.006128,0.000873,0.001607,0.001972,0.00012,0.0049 1
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany54,0.119514,0.15436,0.01734 8,-0.022287,0.024928,-0.005857,0.000705,-0.009692,0.003681,0.018953,-0.006983,0.002248,-0.013974,-0.002202,-0.002986,0.001724,0.004303,0.001394,0.003142,-0.003502,0.000873,0.00371,-0.000863,-0.008676,-0.002036
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany74,0.113823,0.146236,0.0143 31,-0.019703,0.022466,-0.006972,0.00517,0.000462,0.004704,0.024237,-0.001461,0.007643,-0.008622,0.005643,-0.002036,-0.009944,-0.01343,-0.00038,0.004902,-0.000625,-0.001747,0.008161,-0.001972,-0.001084,0.001078
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany93,0.124067,0.140143,0.0113 14,-0.019057,0.023081,-0.016733,-0.00094,-0.002077,0.010022,0.024237,0.007145,0.004496,-0.008176,-0.00812,0.001357,0.001193,-0.005085,0.000887,0.003645,-0.007629,-0.002246,0.003462,-0.005423,0.006145,-0.003832
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany98,0.119514,0.155376,0.0154 62,-0.018411,0.028621,-0.002789,-0.002115,-0.003923,0.009408,0.028976,-0.000974,0.009292,-0.014866,-0.006468,-0.0057,-0.013259,-0.008605,0.000633,0.002891,-0.008379,-0.002371,0.003586,-0.001972,0.00735,0.000599
Italian_Tuscany:VO109,0.113823,0.145221,0.012822,-0.019057,0.029236,-0.012829,-0.002115,-0.008538,0.009613,0.023144,0.000162,0.002098,-0.00996,-0.010184,-0.008279,0.002519,0.016559,-0.000127,0.007919,-0.001376,0.000125,0.006306,0.002465,0.011327,-0.004071
Italian_Tuscany:VO59,0.124067,0.144205,0.013199,-0.014212,0.027082,-0.011713,-0.006345,-0.002077,0.007976,0.019317,-0.001624,0.003447,-0.007136,-0.007982,-0.000407,0.020551,0.018515,0.001014,0.001634,0.005 878,-0.002995,0.002473,0.002588,0.012773,-0.004071
Italian_Tuscany:VO65,0.1161,0.156392,0.016216,-0.020995,0.033852,-0.008646,-0.0047,-0.003461,0.003886,0.02442,0.000487,0.001349,-0.013528,-0.006331,-0.003122,-0.001856,0.010822,0.001014,0.000251,-0.005253,-0.002246,0.000371,-0.002218,0.001325,0.001078
Italian_Umbria:PG03,0.113823,0.148267,0.009051,-0.034884,0.016311,-0.00753,-0.003055,-0.000231,0.007772,0.025331,0.00065,0.003897,-0.008622,-0.002752,-0.005429,-0.001458,0.004694,-0.00076,0.001634,5e-04,-0.008859,-0.003462,0.005669,0.004458,0.001676
Italian_Umbria:PG04,0.117238,0.147252,0.011691,-0.024225,0.018773,-0.010319,-0.00094,0.000231,0.000818,0.02442,0,0.00015,-0.009068,-0.003441,-0.006922,-0.003315,0.00665,0.002787,0.002891,-0.002376,-0.001373,0.00136,0.000246,-0.000723,0.000479
Italian_Umbria:PG05,0.121791,0.151314,0.003017,-0.033915,0.021542,-0.014223,0.002115,-0.001846,-0.000818,0.029522,0.000325,0.006594,-0.007136,0.002064,-0.002579,0.001326,0.007432,-0.00152,0.001508,0.000125,-0.002496,0.001607,0.006039,0.005061,0.000239
Italian_Umbria:PG06,0.114961,0.145221,-0.001508,-0.030685,0.01508,-0.008367,-0.00376,-0.006231,-0.000614,0.026606,0.004872,0.006145,-0.016353,-0.004679,-0.006786,-0.008353,-0.007302,0.002407,-0.001508,-0.01063,-0.000374,0.002844,-0.001972,0,-0.007544
Italian_Umbria:PG07,0.113823,0.149283,0.001886,-0.029393,0.019696,-0.018686,-0.00752,-0.012461,0.007976,0.0277,-0.004222,0.005995,-0.005649,-0.005367,0.000271,0.00053,-0.00013,-0.000633,-0.003017,-0.005127,-0.002745,0.003339,0.001109,0.001566,0.001557
Italian_Umbria:PG08,0.122929,0.145221,0.015462,-0.021964,0.030467,-0.004462,0.00141,-0.000462,0.014317,0.026606,-0.002923,0.003597,-0.009514,-0.001514,-0.001493,-0.003447,0.007953,-0.00038,0.003645,-0.003752,-0.005366,-0.00643,0.000863,0.003374,0.00479
Italian_Umbria:PG11,0.114961,0.148267,0.008297,-0.023256,0.016926,-0.008646,0.00376,-0.002077,0.005522,0.025331,0.00406,0.006594,-0.011447,-0.00523,-0.000407,0.009281,0.016168,0.002407,0.002765,0.000 375,-0.001497,-0.002597,-0.005916,0.001325,-0.004191
Italian_Umbria:PG12,0.121791,0.145221,0.014331,-0.024225,0.020311,-0.005578,0.00423,0.004615,0.006749,0.02278,-0.005846,0.006444,-0.011893,-0.014175,0.0038,-0.001458,0.011343,0.00114,0.000251,-0.005127,-0.002496,0.003462,-0.001972,0.006025,0.000359
Italian_Umbria:PG15,0.112685,0.147252,0.00792,-0.029393,0.021235,-0.004741,-0.003995,-0.003231,0.005318,0.024966,-0.000325,0.009142,-0.011744,-0.012799,-0.00285,0.012066,0.015776,-0.000127,0.001383,0.005002,-0.00549,0.006677,-0.001232,0.006266,-0.007185
Italian_Veneto:ALP022,0.125205,0.147252,0.027907,-0.007106,0.033852,0.000558,0,-0.003692,0.009204,0.014579,0.000974,0.002548,-0.013379,-0.006055,-0.005022,0,0.003129,0.008995,0.001257,-0.006503,-0.001747,0.003339,-0.000616,-0.000723,-0.006347
Italian_Veneto:ALP040,0.127482,0.15436,0.025267,-0.010659,0.042777,-0.007251,0.004935,0.003461,0.010226,0.029158,-0.006658,0.008542,-0.017096,-0.004266,-0.000136,-0.008618,-0.009388,0.002154,0.002011,-0.009004,0.000998,0.004328,-0.003697,0.003856,-0.000958
Italian_Veneto:Alp100,0.12862,0.138112,0.034318,-0.004522,0.036007,0.006972,0.00329,0.008307,0.0151 35,0.024784,0.002923,0.007194,-0.009217,-0.000688,0.003393,0.002121,-0.002608,-0.000127,0.003142,-0.001626,-0.002371,0.00136,-0.000123,0.001687,-0.008382
Italian_Veneto:ALP116,0.122929,0.147252,0.027153,-0.012597,0.029852,-0.003626,-0.003525,0.000692,0.012476,0.028429,-0.006333,0.007044,-0.011893,-0.006468,-0.003664,0.010607,0.01708,0.002027,-0.001006,-0.001251,0.00025,0.001484,-0.00037,-0.001928,-0.001916
Italian_Veneto:ALP209,0.119514,0.15436,0.02753,-0.016796,0.032621,-0.00251,0.007285,0.003,0.004295,0.024237,0.000325, 0.005395,-0.011001,-0.003991,-0.004614,-0.002121,0.002477,0.00076,0.006662,-0.005127,-0.005241,0.00371,0.002342,0.007591,-0.001197
Italian_Veneto:ALP249,0.122929,0.151314,0.028661,-0.001615,0.029544,-0.001952,0.001645,0.005538,0.01084,0.020046,-0.006008,0.004646,-0.008474,0.00523,0.002172,-0.015248,-0.011604,0.001394,0.001885,-0.005503,-0.004742,0.002349,-0.002588,0.004699,-0.006706
Italian_Veneto:ALP250,0.127482,0.142174,0.032809,-0.000969,0.03693,0.00251,0.000705,0.004846,0.01349 9,0.026971,-0.002598,0.00045,-0.008771,-0.005505,-0.007329,-0.001856,-0.002086,0.003167,-0.001508,-0.002751,-0.001373,0.004822,0.002465,0.006025,-0.003712
Italian_Veneto:ALP273,0.122929,0.151314,0.031678,-0.004845,0.032006,0.00251,0.007755,0.000923,0.0069 54,0.01549,0.002111,0.006444,-0.01219,0.001651,-0.006243,-0.001193,0.003781,0.00266,-0.002137,-0.002751,-0.007861,0.009027,-0.001602,0.008194,-0.003233
Italian_Veneto:ALP322,0.129758,0.152329,0.027907,-0.002261,0.03139,-0.004183,0.00094,-0.000231,0.009408,0.024602,-0.00341,0.001199,-0.004757,0.001927,-0.002986,-0.011933,-0.008996,0.001647,0.003771,-0.006628,-0.000125,0.00272,-0.004314,-0.003976,-0.006107
Italian_Veneto:ALP378,0.127482,0.146236,0.033564,0 .003553,0.030467,-0.000558,0.001175,0.000462,0.006545,0.02442,-0.005034,0.002548,-0.004608,-0.010184,-0.008958,0.00769,0.013821,-0.000127,0.00352,-0.003377,-0.000374,0.001978,0.005669,0.00482,0.002036
Italian_Veneto:Alp401,0.12862,0.147252,0.033941,-0.007429,0.038161,0.003904,0.004465,0.006923,0.009 613,0.026789,-0.001461,0.007793,-0.010258,-0.005367,-0.000543,0.004508,0.001695,0.001267,0.004525,-0.009755,0.005366,-0.001237,0.001602,-0.004699,0.005029
Italian_Veneto:KF1800751,0.124067,0.155376,0.02903 8,-0.007106,0.035083,-0.001394,0.003055,-0.001846,0.012476,0.023508,-0.002436,0.006294,-0.010406,-0.003028,-0.001221,0.004906,0.005867,-0.003041,0.007165,-0.004377,-0.001123,0.000742,0.000986,-0.00482,0.000718
Italian_Veneto:KF1800772,0.130897,0.148267,0.02375 9,-0.008075,0.034776,0.004183,0.002115,-0.000231,0.006136,0.020775,-0.008931,0.005695,-0.018434,-0.007294,-0.0076,0.004375,0.0103,0.006081,0.006536,0.00025,-0.000125,0.005193,-0.000493,-0.003976,0.00012
Italian_Veneto:KF1803105,0.12862,0.150298,0.035826 ,-0.008398,0.036622,0.000558,-0.004465,-0.001385,0.005318,0.020957,-0.00341,0.005995,-0.009366,-0.000688,-0.004479,0.012861,0.018384,0.0019,0.002011,-0.002626,0.00287,0,-0.002342,0.004338,-0.00455
Italian_Veneto:KF1803109,0.120652,0.147252,0.03431 8,-0.009367,0.030775,-0.011713,0.00423,0.001154,0.016157,0.022597,0.0037 35,0.009142,-0.010852,-0.004404,0.002986,-0.007425,0,0.003167,0.005531,-0.001251,-0.001747,0.006925,0.001109,-0.002651,0.003832
Italian_Veneto:KF1803151,0.122929,0.139128,0.03130 1,-0.000323,0.037545,0.004741,-0.00094,0.004154,0.012271,0.021322,0.000487,0.0068 94,-0.007879,-0.011973,0.001086,0.016574,0.013821,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.005378,0.001373,-0.000989,-0.000123,0.002651,-0.002994

----------


## matadworf

Ancient Greek samples

GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01,0.1161,0.176702,-0.016216,-0.086241,0.024928,-0.038487,-0.00329,-0.007846,0.01268,0.054306,0.005684,0.013788,-0.021258,0.013074,-0.024565,-0.015115,0.00665,0.004687,0.008045,-0.013381,-0.009483,-0.004946,-0.000986,0.010363,0.002155
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03,0.114961,0.158423 ,-0.022627,-0.074936,0.012618,-0.032072,-0.0047,-0.007846,0,0.044466,0.006008,0.015886,-0.024975,-0.000138,-0.027687,0.002784,0.024773,0.003167,0.008925,-0.007003,-0.010731,-0.001978,0.003204,-0.001084,-0.007424
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02,0.119514,0.153345,0.016593,-0.020995,0.028005,-0.013108,0.000235,-0.001615,0.004295,0.026606,0,0.003147,-0.013677,-0.001514,-0.014929,-0.012596,-0.004172,-0.002787,0.001006,-0.002126,-0.009234,0.000989,0.005669,-0.00012,-0.002515
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04,0.124067,0.141159,0.02753,-0.005814,0.020619,0.002789,-0.003995,-0.001154,-0.006545,0.009659,0.005359,0.014987,-0.013082,0.000275,-0.006786,-0.010607,-0.004303,-0.004561,0.007039,-0.017258,-0.012353,0.002473,0.006039,0.00735,-0.005269
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15,0.1161,0.176702,-0.000377,-0.091086,0.029236,-0.033188,-0.00423,-0.007846,0.027406,0.065241,0.002436,0.01169,-0.019921,0.004954,-0.030401,-0.019888,0.010691,0.003294,0.006662,-0.020635,-0.010482,0.002597,0.000863,0.007591,-0.003592
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08,0.1161,0.170609,-0.018479,-0.091732,0.028005,-0.033188,0.003995,-0.002769,0.021066,0.060685,0.00747,0.007643,-0.01665,0.010046,-0.03583,-0.02254,0,0.005954,0.009176,-0.009755,-0.009483,0.006059,-0.006902,-0.004217,0.002395
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070,0.121791,0.174671,-0.028284,-0.093993,0.035699,-0.043786,-0.00564,-0.001385,0.003886,0.059956,0.008119,0.016036,-0.018583,-0.001789,-0.027144,-0.00769,0.024773,-0.000507,0.005782,-0.004627,-0.010482,0.003462,-0.005669,0.003374,-0.007065
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071,0.114961,0.167562,-0.016216,-0.088502,0.033237,-0.038487,-0.00188,-0.00923,0.002454,0.056129,0.002761,0.011839,-0.024678,-0.002064,-0.037187,-0.009281,0.02034,-0.00152,0.007793,-0.010255,-0.013601,0.009769,-0.007395,0.005663,-0.002634
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073,0.118376,0.168578,-0.011691,-0.093993,0.022158,-0.034582,-0.00423,-0.002769,0.013703,0.065423,0.003735,0.013788,-0.023637,0.008808,-0.04343,-0.012331,0.016298,-0.007601,0.008925,-0.025637,-0.01123,0.010758,-0.006039,-0.005422,0.000359
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074,0.117238,0.164516,-0.016593,-0.096254,0.025235,-0.044623,0.000705,-0.005077,0.01493,0.060685,0.005196,0.013338,-0.02334,-0.003165,-0.042209,-0.022142,0.004955,0.003674,0.00905,-0.018009,-0.018093,0.007048,-0.010599,-0.006507,0.002275
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005,0.124067,0.177718,-0.018102,-0.097223,0.03139,-0.03765,0.004465,0.001154,0.016771,0.056858,-0.004872,0.021581,-0.035381,-0.002064,-0.037323,-0.003315,0.020601,-0.000253,0.012821,-0.00963,-0.013476,0.010881,0.004314,-0.00241,-0.005149
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129,0.111547,0.1787 33,-0.005657,-0.078166,0.026466,-0.04267,0.0047,-0.022153,0.027611,0.077815,0.018837,-0.012739,-0.037462,0.007844,-0.039087,0.008486,0.015385,-0.011275,0.025642,-0.027138,0.008735,0.013478,-0.000616,-0.000843,0.003712
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130,0.126344,0.1919 35,-0.012822,-0.081073,0.051702,-0.036814,-0.005405,0.006923,0.01309,0.056129,0.011854,0.0250 28,-0.007879,-0.001651,-0.029858,-0.004243,0.004433,0.014569,0.01257,-0.029764,0.007986,-0.00915,-0.010969,-0.006507,-0.01437
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131,0.133173,0.1726 4,-0.006411,-0.106268,0.03693,-0.047411,-0.006345,-0.000692,0.001841,0.052484,-0.008769,3e-04,-0.024678,-0.014726,-0.023751,0.00411,0.021644,-0.00152,0.024008,0.005753,-0.011355,0.011252,-0.016022,0.019882,-0.013891
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006,0.119514,0.160454,-0.006788,-0.068476,0.014464,-0.03514,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.002863,0.050115,0.004384,0.015137,-0.009366,0.00289,-0.019815,-0.005304,0.024643,0.007601,0.020992,-0.000375,-0.007487,-0.012365,-0.010969,-0.000602,-0.001796
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010,0.110408,0.160454,-0.015462,-0.071383,0.029544,-0.038487,-0.003525,0.004154,0.013499,0.056129,0.018025,0.017 235,-0.00223,-0.00234,-0.023208,-0.005038,0.031553,0.003421,0.005908,-0.004002,-0.006613,0.003215,-0.016145,-0.007109,-0.003113
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033,0.091058,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.050388,0.022773,-0.013387,0.007285,-0.006692,0.003068,0.041003,-0.003573,0.019333,-0.020218,0.005505,-0.006515,-0.026518,0.00678,-0.003167,0.012193,-0.008629,-0.002995,-0.006306,-0.000616,0.005904,0.006945
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491
GRC_N:I5427,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318,0.118376,0.180764,0.000377 ,-0.100776,0.048009,-0.050758,-0.00423,-0.008307,0.023725,0.07909,0.00682,0.014537,-0.029435,-0.00578,-0.043702,0.001591,0.035073,0.00038,0.010559,-0.014007,-0.021213,-0.005935,-0.003944,-0.014701,-0.010059
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937,0.118376,0.178733,0,-0.102714,0.053548,-0.044623,0.000705,-0.000462,0.031088,0.0831,0.010718,0.013638,-0.018731,0.002615,-0.034202,-0.022275,0.00013,0.003167,0.021871,-0.019009,-0.019965,0.000989,-0.008504,0.00241,-0.007305
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708,0.121791,0.175687,-0.00792,-0.097546,0.046778,-0.042949,-0.001645,-0.003,0.033133,0.077268,0.009256,0.010491,-0.025272,-0.003441,-0.03963,-0.005701,0.029206,-0.003421,0.006285,-0.014507,-0.01672,0.008161,-0.004067,0.006145,-0.002874
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709,0.118376,0.178733,-0.010936,-0.099484,0.033237,-0.032909,-0.00517,-0.010153,0.026588,0.065605,0.001461,0.012139,-0.026313,0.005367,-0.030266,-0.013789,0.017211,-0.000253,0.007542,-0.011881,-0.01984,-0.002102,-0.003081,0.002651,-0.003113
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920,0.119514,0.169593,-0.021873,-0.082042,0.023081,-0.037092,0.002115,-0.003692,0.012067,0.058316,0.005034,0.01169,-0.020961,-0.002615,-0.028773,-0.00305,0.011213,0.002787,0.005782,-0.00988,-0.013227,0.002473,-0.001849,0,-0.000479

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Mataworf: A quick question for clarification. I have been away from posting for a few days. The averages from your post #14-22. Are those the original G25 samples updated to include those academic samples that Pax, Salento, Jovialis, etc have been working on that you converted to G25 from Eurogenes K36 simulator to obtain G25 simulated coordiantes. So what you have in your posts are samples from various regions of Greece and Italy with larger sample sizes (N). Given the size of the the combined data, you obviously have individual samples. Are some of those included averages as well.

Thanks in advance, PT

----------


## matadworf

I believe it’s an expanded collection that includes simulated K 36,, K 13, Dodecanese, and G 25. However, those samples are from 2019 (not sure when those you mentioned were added) so I’m sure there’s been a lot of additions since then. I believe there were several K 13 samples from the Peloponnese added.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I believe it’s an expanded collection that includes simulated K 36,, K 13, Dodecanese, and G 25. However, those samples are from 2019 (not sure when those you mentioned were added) so I’m sure there’s been a lot of additions since then. I believe there were several K 13 samples from the Peloponnese added.


Ok, thanks.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I believe it’s an expanded collection that includes simulated K 36,, K 13, Dodecanese, and G 25. However, those samples are from 2019 (not sure when those you mentioned were added) so I’m sure there’s been a lot of additions since then. I believe there were several K 13 samples from the Peloponnese added.


Metadworf: Ok, thanks. I added the data in sequence, started with page 14, then 15. When I put in the data from page 16. Got an error. I think Crete_763 is missing some coordinates. When I deleted it and ran the source data from pp 14-16, got it to run. My top 25 from that run using the data from pp.14-16 (excluding Crete_763).

Distance to:
PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled

0.01776527
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.01974334
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39

0.02149438
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11

0.02174661
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23

0.02245698
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.02337302
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10

0.02556652
Greek_Achaea:AHA-37

0.02640373
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27

0.02714290
Greek_Achaea:AHA-10

0.02721700
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6

0.02750559
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.02848879
Greek_Crete:778

0.02858355
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7

0.02896899
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6

0.02902010
Greek_Crete:756

0.02906835
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8

0.02914857
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.02920876
Greek_Crete:Crete8

0.02995339
Greek_Crete:Crete3

0.03005557
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.03012488
Greek_Crete:790

0.03029585
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25

0.03044015
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.03044038
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.03044611
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

Distance to:
PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled

0.01713239
Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR

0.01776527
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7

0.01874231
Italian_Apulia:cera8

0.01888596
Italian_Campania:NaN43TC

0.01932576
Italian_Apulia:cera9

0.01963174
Italian_Basilicata:PG20

0.01964434
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.01974334
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39

0.01999295
Italian_Lazio:NOR28

0.02047439
Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.02087089
Italian_Basilicata:PG19

0.02149438
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11

0.02160112
Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205

0.02174661
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23

0.02200174
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1

0.02224918
Italian_Campania:NaN238DM

0.02227362
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22

0.02245698
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15

0.02254037
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380

0.02254705
Italian_Apulia:Pu3

0.02273719
Italian_Campania:NaN289RM

0.02281146
Italian_Basilicata:PG18

0.02284391
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.02304390
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162

0.02326530
Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

0.02329825
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.02337302
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10

0.02344557
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616

0.02353511
Italian_Basilicata:PG17

0.02356284
Italian_Basilicata:PG25

0.02382436
Italian_Marche:MarACO100D

0.02392702
Italian_Basilicata:PG24

0.02410880
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H

0.02429385
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.02430576
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.02441971
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15

0.02482137
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16

0.02484722
Italian_Basilicata:PG21

0.02488643
Italian_Apulia:ITS7

0.02498739
Italian_Umbria:PG03

0.02507645
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19

0.02512626
Italian_Molise:PG27

0.02522220
Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2

0.02550033
Italian_Molise:PG26

0.02550403
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7

0.02550696
Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8

0.02556543
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.02556652
Greek_Achaea:AHA-37

0.02569943
Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2

0.02586840
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.02588653
Italian_Apulia:Pu2

0.02599414
Italian_Umbria:PG05

0.02633758
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H

0.02640373
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27

0.02663396
Italian_Apulia:GS32

0.02714290
Greek_Achaea:AHA-10

0.02721700
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6

0.02722742
Italian_Campania:NaN128LA

0.02729330
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140

0.02744356
Italian_Campania:NaN195ST

0.02750559
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.02751138
Italian_Marche:MarABP050D

0.02764050
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19

0.02773377
Italian_Campania:ITS4

0.02774538
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.02778738
Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

0.02779267
Italian_Campania:NaN293SF

0.02779985
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.02791726
Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2

0.02818646
Italian_Umbria:PG07

0.02821885
Italian_Marche:MarACY030D

0.02835150
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13

0.02845071
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090

0.02848879
Greek_Crete:778

0.02855166
Italian_Lazio:PG30

0.02858355
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7

0.02862506
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H

0.02874658
Italian_Apulia:GS47

0.02890658
Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20

0.02896899
Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6

0.02897627
Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D

0.02899432
Italian_Apulia:cera2

0.02902010
Greek_Crete:756

0.02906835
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8

0.02914857
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22

0.02917512
Italian_Marche:MarABY030D

0.02920876
Greek_Crete:Crete8

0.02922918
Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23

0.02928449
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.02946591
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

----------


## Niceguy12

No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.

----------


## Angela

> No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.


Island Greeks, Maniots, and the people of Tsakonia will be very interested to learn they're not really Greek.

----------


## Angela

> Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.
> 
> Distance to:
> PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
> 
> 0.01713239
> Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
> 
> 0.01776527
> ...


Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

----------


## matadworf

> Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?


It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.

----------


## matadworf

> Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.
> 
> Distance to:
> PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
> 
> 0.01713239
> Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
> 
> 0.01776527
> ...


Thanks! I actually enjoy it. It's sort of like therapy for me and gets me away from my work!

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?


Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.


Well that is not going to change my results. they are what they are. I am by no means a G25 expert but Duarte, whose opinion I value and trust, stated distances < 0.029 on G25 are genetically excellent distances indicating the same basic genetic admixture, etc.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?


It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.




> Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so *I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is*. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.


I honestly think it is a very unclear part in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans. Which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is. The problem is that in this new study he also makes continuous references to his previous study from 2019. Raveane is the same one who wrote in the 2019 preprint that Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy, only to correct himself when the study was published. 



The study then literally says "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~ 16 to ~ 30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese". It is therefore cluster 9.


Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly think it's an error in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans, which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is.
> 
> Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.


Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.

They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.

As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.

Cheers.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.
> 
> They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.



I remember reading several times in history books that when the Normans repopulated Sicily, in addition to settlers from north-western Italy, they also brought in settlers from Campania and other areas of southern Italy. 






> As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.
> 
> Cheers.



The samples are the usual ones already seen in other studies. There are no new samples analysed for this study, as far as I understand. If there was an overlap it would have already been noted by previous papers, I think.

The study literally says that "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~16 to ~30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese".




It is therefore cluster 9 and the clusters in the study are made using mclust which is a software, an R package. 

So it is not so much that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals overlap with central Italians. But that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals join the same cluster (the 9) together with Lombard and Tuscan samples. If you see in the figure also a good percentage of Abruzzese, and a handful of Apulians and Calabrians. 

The software is not new, but I have never used it and have no opinion on its accuracy. What I do understand is that it is different from a PCA and other known tools. 

In general, I think it would have been more useful if he had used all the Italian populations with mclust, as he did in 2019. Maybe the clusters would have been different.

----------


## ihype02

I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.

----------


## matadworf

> I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.


Because they're sort of like the standard Peloponnesian probably absorbing some Slavic admixture that didn't make it to Deep Mani. The Deep Maniots essentially overlap with Cretans which I found astounding.

----------


## eupator

Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned). 

Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea

----------


## ihype02

> Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned). 
> 
> Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea


One Deep Maniote seem to plot with Dodecanese Islanders. Very likely they became more northern shifted with contact with Maniotes of Taygetos, being plugged into Cretan cluster after the Ottoman conquest of Peloponnese.

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## Angela

Some people just can't seem to abide the fact that perhaps there are still people on the Greek mainland who are pretty much like the ancient Greeks, and they themselves are very different.

So, they post all sorts of speculation about how this group or that group added a few genes here and there, and ignore the facts staring us in the face, which show a rather remarkable similarity to, for example, Mycenaeans. Or are we just going to ignore the analyses which show just that?

Anyone tried which modern populations are closest to the Greek trader from Catalonia?

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## 1337

Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool .

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## 1337

Essentially, all populations in the Balkans are mixed, including Albanian.

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## Angela

> Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . *But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks* but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. *It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool* .


When did I ever say anything of the kind?

I'm talking about the fact that certain Peloponnese populations are pretty close to populations like the Mycenaeans, as are some island populations. How does that not make sense? Isolated populations get less new input. The island Greeks got less Slavic. 

It would also be interesting to compare modern Greek and Italian populations to the Greek Classical Era trader from Catalonia, or the one from Athens. I'd prefer a K12b comparison, especially considering that Eurogenes himself has said there are problems with the G25. Why people don't take him at his own word I'll never understand, but hey some of you still see it as the Holy Grail, and yet you don't want to accept the results. Don't understand it.

----------


## eupator

I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):



```

Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
0.04809307    Italian_Campania
0.04852104    Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04995370    Italian_Apulia
0.04999673    Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882    Sicilian_East
0.05100425    Greek_Kos
0.05223553    Greek_Dodecanese
0.05364111    Italian_Jew
0.05422879    Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403    Italian_Molise
0.05509976    Greek_Crete
0.05543374    Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05550294    Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05592299    Greek_Izmir
0.05626354    Maltese
0.05656327    Italian_Lazio
0.05678270    Romaniote_Jew
0.05864589    Sicilian_West
0.05865506    Italian_Umbria
0.05947154    Sephardic_Jew
0.06132990    Italian_Marche
0.06154745    Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06178645    Greek_Laconia
0.06250757    Greek_Corinthia
```

It seems that the reference Italian Jews are pretty close, also the Ashkenazi Jewish reference from Germany is almost as close as the South Tsakonian one? I wonder what are the historical circumstances that make Ashkenazi from Germany be so close? Do they have an ancient Greek connection also, you reckon?

----------


## eupator

I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...

Oh, well ...

----------


## Angela

> I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> 
> Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
> 0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
> 0.04809307    Italian_Campania
> ...


First of all, don't use averages, especially for Italians; too much variation.

Second of all, still see Deep Mani and Greek Islanders at a "decent" distance from Mycenaeans. NEVER SAID THEY WERE AN UNCHANGED 'PURE" POPULATION. Maybe if it's all caps it will penetrate.

Third of all, you didn't really need me to tell you that Ashkenazim are a combination of Anatolian Neolithic, Iran Neolithic, Southern European (perhaps Greeks) and some Slavic, did you? Plus, they're quite a bit further down the line, precisely because of that additional Slavic. Italian Jews are a much more "ancient" population.

----------


## matadworf

> No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.


I believe the IBD sharing with Slavs (Poles) within certain Peloponnesian Groups in the Stamatoyannopoulos paper was anywhere from 5-15%. I believe Elis and Messinia were the highest overall. The Steppe component (which can be as high as 34%) in mainland Greeks isn't necessarily Slavic it could also be Paleobalkanic. I honestly believe much of the modern Peloponnese (last 100 years) and particularly among the Sheepherders of the interior mountain regions travelled around and many (from my discussion with other Peloponnesians from Messinia and Arcadia) groups originated in the NW (Epirus or Rumeli) or NE.

----------


## Angela

> I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...
> 
> Oh, well ...


:
Do you know how many logical fallacies you cram into your responses?

I'll address just two here:

1. Appeal to authority; specifically Byzantine "historians". Were you one of the members at anthrogenica or theapricity who insisted the Etruscans were recent (1st millennium B.C.) migrants from Asia Minor because Herodotus said so? How did that work out for you?

2. Straw man argument; insisting I propose that some Peloponnese populations and the Island Greeks are identical to, or close to it, the Mycenaeans. INEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I'm sure there were some genetic influences on them with the passing of the years. Stop implying I said otherwise.

My point was and is that a good bit of that ancestry may very well still exist in them.

I don't know you, so I don't know why something so obvious upsets you so much. Are you one of those Southern European Nordicists who wants all Greeks to have a lot of Central and Eastern European ancestry, or are you a member of some other Balkan nationality who wants the Greeks to be some cobbled together ethnicity with no line of descent whatsoever to their illustrious ancestors?

Both positions are absurd, imo.

----------


## Angela

> I believe the IBD sharing with Slavs (Poles) within certain Peloponnesian Groups in the Stamatoyannopoulos paper was anywhere from 5-15%. I believe Elis and Messinia were the highest overall. The Steppe component (which can be as high as 34%) in mainland Greeks isn't necessarily Slavic it could also be Paleobalkanic. I honestly believe much of the modern Peloponnese (last 100 years) and particularly among the Sheepherders of the interior mountain regions travelled around and many (from my discussion with other Peloponnesians from Messinia and Arcadia) groups originated in the NW (Epirus or Rumeli) or NE.


Why on earth would you believe anecdotal stories from acquaintances over genetic analysis in academic papers? Sorry, Matadworf, but it makes no sense to me. 

Plus, there's no way the people of Deep Mani or Tsakonia etc. came from Epirus or the N.E. They're way too different.

----------


## eupator

> Third of all, you didn't really need me to tell you that Ashkenazim are a combination of Anatolian Neolithic, Iran Neolithic, Southern European (perhaps Greeks) and some Slavic, did you? Plus, they're quite a bit further down the line, precisely because of that additional Slavic. Italian Jews are a much more "ancient" population.



I agree with you, if the positionals on the PCA, like you say with the Ashkenazi, is due to circumstantial breakdown of their relative parts, then why single them out of the total? This same rule could apply to everyone.

Why discount the Byzantine historiography?

----------


## ihype02

Deep Maniotes plot with Cretans. And Cretans have 10% to 15 Slavic admixture.

The same will turn true for Deep Maniotes which I believe this admixture came with Meligoi who were assimilated during the Ottoman period in Mani.

Maniotes from Taygetos are the most Slavic people in Peloponnese and Maniotes from Deep Mani are the least just as Emperor Constantine said centuries ago.

----------


## eupator

> :
> Do you know how many logical fallacies you cram into your responses?
> 
> I'll address just two here:
> 
> 1. Appeal to authority; specifically Byzantine "historians". Were you one of the members at anthrogenica or theapricity who insisted the Etruscans were recent (1st millennium B.C.) migrants from Asia Minor because Herodotus said so? How did that work out for you?
> 
> 2. Straw man argument; insisting I propose that some Peloponnese populations and the Island Greeks are identical to, or close to it, the Mycenaeans. INEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I'm sure there were some genetic influences on them with the passing of the years. Stop implying I said otherwise.
> 
> ...



I'll reply to the best of my ability,

1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.

2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).

3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others? 

4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?

I think you have misunderstood me, with all due respect, my background is anthropology and ethnography and so I am very keen on these middle/late Medieval details some people want to leave out.

----------


## eupator

And finally, on a personal note and w/o wanting to abuse having the floor, I'd like to point out my annoyance that every time someone (like me) mentions a historical/ethnographic detail from the Ottoman and Byzantine era, it's considered as shit posting, pardon my expression.

All countries and nations celebrate their medieval past, their history and their culture, their traditions, it's only modern Greeks that have to forget about their own people's recent medieval roots and constantly try to prove that they are the descendants of Leonidas and Pericles, and so on, like the rest of our history as Grecoromans and Ottomans has to be discarded, thrown in the trash and not mentioned at all, like it's taboo.

I am very tired of this and find it highly offensive.

----------


## matadworf

> Why on earth would you believe anecdotal stories from acquaintances over genetic analysis in academic papers? Sorry, Matadworf, but it makes no sense to me. 
> 
> Plus, there's no way the people of Deep Mani or Tsakonia etc. came from Epirus or the N.E. They're way too different.


I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years

----------


## Yetos

> I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years


wowow.

Maniates are considered genetical closer to Cretans, expelled Cretans or Pirates etc,
Mane (Magne) is like the tortuga island of pirates, or the emperror king that become mercenairies. always semi indepented.
Tsakones is considered a special population, considered as exo-Lakonians, closer to Ancient Lakedemonians and Arcadians
At kalamata gulf there was an after Kastrioti habitation from Epirus, the Kastrioti followers like Krokodeilos Kladas

----------


## Angela

> I agree with you, if the positionals on the PCA, like you say with the Ashkenazi, is due to circumstantial breakdown of their relative parts, then why single them out of the total? This same rule could apply to everyone.
> 
> Why discount the Byzantine historiography?


Why do you continue to post straw man arguments.

I never said I was discounting Byzantine historiography, or at least not all of it. However, one has to remember that historians in the past often repeated tales heard from others, rarely did the kind of studies which modern methods have given us the ability to do today. Anyone who has ever studied the development of historical writing would know that. Look at the mistakes in Herodotus, for goodness sakes, or in the Latin "historians", or in many of the so called histories of the Middle Ages. 

I'm sure, however, that the people of Deep Mani in the Peloponnese, along with others to greater degrees, have indeed accrued some genes from other admixing populations. Do I have to have it engraved on my forehead???

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF???

----------


## Angela

> I'll reply to the best of my ability,
> 
> 1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.
> 
> 2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).
> 
> 3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others? 
> 
> 4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?
> ...


All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions. 

If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix? 

To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.

What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks. 

It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.

----------


## matadworf

> All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions. 
> 
> If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix? 
> 
> To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.
> 
> What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks. 
> 
> It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.


Yes I agree the standard modern mainland Greek is pretty much a mix of Classical era Greeks (or something of the sort) with additional Slavic admixture. I will say that the entire Greek mainland is pretty uniform genetically. This was pointed out by someone on this site several years back (LeBrok I believe) who had a collection of mainland Greek samples. I remember asking him about that and he totally agreed. So if you look at Central (Greek) Macedonia, Thessaly, Rumeli and the Peloponnese there's an absolute (and pretty tight) genetic continuum. The outliers (if you want to call them that) are obviously the deep Maniots and Tsakonians who are pretty close (in comparative terms) to Cretans who in turn link up to other Aegean Islanders.

----------


## matadworf

> I'll reply to the best of my ability,
> 
> 1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.
> 
> 2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).
> 
> 3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others? 
> 
> 4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?
> ...


Hey these autosmal comparisons are in "good fun" and I don't believe anyone is saying that if they cluster with an ancient population then they're a direct descendant. I'm super close to the Logkas 2 sample as are Tuscans and other Central Italians so are we genetically linked? Hardly. We just share similar genetic components but that's what makes it interesting. it allows you (in good fun) to compare your genetic makeup to the ancients. As far as the Medieval history of Greece I find it super fascinating particularly when discussing the various Frankish and Venetian principalities, the Slavic and Albanian settlements, and the strongholds of the Byzantine East. It's absolutely an underappreciated segment of Greek history but for the sake of this thread I was simply trying to present (with the various samples available) how similar Greeks and Italians are when comparing these populations to the Ancients.

----------


## Yetos

> Yes I agree the standard modern mainland Greek is pretty much a mix of Classical era Greeks (or something of the sort) with additional Slavic admixture. I will say that the entire Greek mainland is pretty uniform genetically. This was pointed out by someone on this site several years back (LeBrok I believe) who had a collection of mainland Greek samples. I remember asking him about that and he totally agreed. So if you look at Central (Greek) Macedonia, Thessaly, Rumeli and the Peloponnese there's an absolute (and pretty tight) genetic continuum. The outliers (if you want to call them that) are obviously the deep Maniots and Tsakonians who are pretty close (in comparative terms) to Cretans who in turn link up to other Aegean Islanders.


Again you do this again.

DO NOT MIX MANIATES WITH TSAKONES.

they are tottaly different population.
for seconf time plz Understand it,
Maniates population has nothing to do with Tsakones population,

----------


## matadworf

> Again you do this again.
> 
> DO NOT MIX MANIATES WITH TSAKONES.
> 
> they are tottaly different population.
> for seconf time Understand it,
> Maniates population has nothing to do with Tsakones population,


I know the difference. I’ve been to Greece 5 times. All of my family is from the Morea. My maternal grandmother was from a village called Paliochori that borders on Tsakonian villages. I’ve been to Kosmas and Leonidion. My paternal side is from Messinia and I’ve been to exo Mani. I dated a full blooded Maniatisa so yes I know the difference 😄

----------


## Yetos

> I know the difference. I’ve been to Greece 5 times. All of my family is from the Morea. My maternal grandmother was from a village called Paliochori that borders on Tsakonian villages. I’ve been to Kosmas and Leonidion. My paternal side is from Messinia and I’ve been to exo Mani. I dated a full blooded Maniatisa so yes I know the difference ������


Tsakones speak an ancient Dorian dialect as shelf improved through ages call exo-Lakonian
but their ethnogenesis as a sub-group strat at 8 century AD probably cause they served as light infantry,

Maniates are around 650 years after as a sub-group ethnogenesis 
and has to do with Italian priviledges, mercenairies, and mainly piracy.

If you refer to Francocratia, then there is a castle there, the castle of Lello Lellou 
even for this the argonese chronicles and local chronicles, and the 4rth crusade chronicles can not give a correct answer,

_Hugues de Charpigny or de Lille
_Guy de Nivelet or de Neuville or de Nevilles etc etc

----------


## eupator

> snip



I think our disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of goalposts.

I don't have an agenda to disprove anything, but I do consider myself an avid supporter of the restoration of Byzantine/Ottoman Greek medieval identity and culture in my own country.

I also believe that the genetics and ethnography of the successors of the Byzantine/Ottoman empires (both modern Greeks and Turks) are more complex than simple models of "ancient Greeks + extra Slavic/Albanian" or "Anatolian + extra Turkic", etc. Based on the historiographers of their times there were numerous populations also thrown in the mix of the Byzantine ethnos apart from Slavs and Albanians, like Armenians, Isaurians, Pecheneges, Seljuks/Iranians, and others, that also contributed their bit into the amalgamation of what consisted the Byzantine/Ottoman Greek ethnos; from my perspective those contributions and sacrifices of whom essentially are some of our ancestors need to also be recognized and not buried.

As for myself, I am not an Albanian spy, half or full, set out to get the poor Greeks; I think it's funny that Arvanites are automatically considered as Albanians in such an argument, most of my generation (late Xers/early Millenials) only very recently started to rediscover their roots and particularities within the context of the modern Greek ethnos, up until very recently Arvanite or Vlach was a connotation used for a 'villager/rural farmer' person, not necessarily tied to an ethnic context. A lot of people with Arvanite roots or such last names can't speak Arvanitic and sometimes don't even know if any of their ancestors spoke such a language, the linguistic Hellenisation was a process that began in the 11th-12th century in some cases.

That's all for now.

----------


## Yetos

> I think our disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of goalposts.
> 
> I don't have an agenda to disprove anything, but I do consider myself an avid supporter of the restoration of Byzantine/Ottoman Greek medieval identity and culture in my own country.
> 
> I also believe that the genetics and ethnography of the successors of the Byzantine/Ottoman empires (both modern Greeks and Turks) are more complex than simple models of "ancient Greeks + extra Slavic/Albanian" or "Anatolian + extra Turkic", etc. Based on the historiographers of their times there were numerous populations also thrown in the mix of the Byzantine ethnos apart from Slavs and Albanians, like Armenians, Isaurians, Pecheneges, Seljuks/Iranians, and others, that also contributed their bit into the amalgamation of what consisted the Byzantine/Ottoman Greek ethnos; from my perspective those contributions and sacrifices of whom essentially are some of our ancestors need to also be recognized and not buried.
> 
> As for myself, I am not an Albanian spy, half or full, set out to get the poor Greeks; I think it's funny that Arvanites are automatically considered as Albanians in such an argument, most of my generation (late Xers/early Millenials) only very recently started to rediscover their roots and particularities within the context of the modern Greek ethnos, up until very recently Arvanite or Vlach was a connotation used for a 'villager/rural farmer' person, not necessarily tied to an ethnic context. A lot of people with Arvanite roots or such last names can't speak Arvanitic and sometimes don't even know if any of their ancestors spoke such a language, the linguistic Hellenisation was a process that began in the 11th-12th century in some cases.
> 
> That's all for now.



I really can not understand you,
your writting seems you hide something, and want to provide something else,

Let me at least explain you the brown Iranian Neolithic is the primary genetical stuff of continental Greeks in antique

Altaic component is a mark of possible Turkic-Turkish origin,
no matter 400 years unde Ottoman Turks, Greece has the lowest almost 0 Altaic component.

----------


## eupator

> I really can not understand you,
> your writting seems you hide something, and want to provide something else,
> 
> Let me at least explain you the brown Iranian Neolithic is the primary genetical stuff of continental Greeks in antique
> 
> Altaic component is a mark of possible Turkic-Turkish origin,
> no matter 400 years unde Ottoman Turks, Greece has the lowest almost 0 Altaic component.



I am not sure what the Altaic component has to do with anything we're talking about here.

----------


## 1337

> When did I ever say anything of the kind?
> 
> I'm talking about the fact that certain Peloponnese populations are pretty close to populations like the Mycenaeans, as are some island populations. How does that not make sense? Isolated populations get less new input. The island Greeks got less Slavic. 
> 
> It would also be interesting to compare modern Greek and Italian populations to the Greek Classical Era trader from Catalonia, or the one from Athens. I'd prefer a K12b comparison, especially considering that Eurogenes himself has said there are problems with the G25. Why people don't take him at his own word I'll never understand, but hey some of you still see it as the Holy Grail, and yet you don't want to accept the results. Don't understand it.


I wasn't addressing you but the thread in general. I wasn't even talking about the Islands and I am aware some people from Peloponnese plot very southern.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Some people just can't seem to abide the fact that perhaps there are still people on the Greek mainland who are pretty much like the ancient Greeks, and they themselves are very different.
> 
> So, they post all sorts of speculation about how this group or that group added a few genes here and there, and ignore the facts staring us in the face, which show a rather remarkable similarity to, for example, Mycenaeans. Or are we just going to ignore the analyses which show just that?
> 
> Anyone tried which modern populations are closest to the Greek trader from Catalonia?


If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.

The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!

----------


## 1337

> All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions. 
> 
> If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix? 
> 
> To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.
> 
> What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks. 
> 
> It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.


Lol you're quickly to jump to assumptions and conclusions  :Laughing:  Relax, we already know you are anti-Albanian  :Laughing: 

I have seen him also on other forums and he is definitely not Albanian. There was another Greek guy arguing the same on Apecity , and I remember he showed that many of these samples are closer to other populations than to Greeks and plotting can also be misleading for many reasons. 

Tell me, what happened to all these people ? 




> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey
> 
> The *1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey (Greek: Ἡ Ἀνταλλαγή, romanized: I Antallagí, Ottoman Turkish: مبادله, romanized: Mübâdele, Turkish: Mübadele) stemmed from the "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on 30 January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved at least 1.6 million people (1,221,489 Greek Orthodox from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace, the Pontic Alps and the Caucasus, and 355,000–400,000 Muslims from Greece),[3] most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.*

----------


## Angela

> Lol you're quickly to jump to assumptions and conclusions  Relax, we already know you are anti-Albanian 
> 
> I have seen him also on other forums and he is definitely not Albanian. There was another Greek guy arguing the same on Apecity , and I remember he showed that many of these samples are closer to other populations than to Greeks and plotting can also be misleading for many reasons. 
> 
> Tell me, what happened to all these people ?


Yes, I'm so anti-Albanian that for years I pointed out the absurdity of the claims made here that the Albanians were the descendants of Turks. 

You guys have very short memories, and/or no capacity for gratitude. 

As for all those people, at least in the academic study on the Peloponnese, great care was taken to get samples from people who were quite elderly, specifically so that the "all four grandparents from the same area" standard which was also applied would ensure that no people with long residence in the Peloponnese would have any of that ancestry.

I've only pointed that out on this thread four or five times already.

Do go back to the paper and look it up for yourself.

----------


## Angela

> I wasn't addressing you but the thread in general. I wasn't even talking about the Islands and I am aware some people from Peloponnese plot very southern.


Well, as no mainland Greeks plot any further north than the Tuscans, and in fact usually southeast of them, which is the same for the Albanians, all of you are "Southern", in that sense.

----------


## Yetos

> If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.
> 
> The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!



how sure you are? 
about
1 this,
2 the ancient myceneans,
3 Maniates are local to Lacedaimonia when Myceneans rull
4 Myceneans where main dwellers and not main rulers.

etc etc,

and who is emporiotes

are you another Albanian hiding behind Italian Flag?

----------


## Er Monnezza

> how sure you are? 
> about
> 1 this,
> 2 the ancient myceneans,
> 3 Maniates are local to Lacedaimonia when Myceneans rull
> 4 Myceneans where main dwellers and not main rulers.
> 
> etc etc,
> 
> ...


I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.

"GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.

"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.

Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.

Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean

0.04621737
Italian_Calabria

0.04809307
Italian_Campania

0.04852104
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04995370
Italian_Apulia

0.04999673
Italian_Basilicata

0.05085882
Sicilian_East

0.05100425
Greek_Kos

0.05223553
Greek_Dodecanese

0.05364111
Italian_Jew

0.05422879
Italian_Abruzzo



Distance to:
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

0.04715049
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04766329
Italian_Apulia

0.04778804
Italian_Campania

0.04857601
Italian_Calabria

0.04981762
Italian_Basilicata

0.04994000
Sicilian_East

0.05206948
Greek_Dodecanese

0.05321564
Italian_Abruzzo

0.05330776
Greek_Kos

0.05402369
Italian_Molise

----------


## matadworf

> If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.
> 
> The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!


Wow I forgot to add the NE Empuries sample. That population consisted of settlers from the Anatolian Coast who were originally from Central Greece and apparently Doric speakers. I'm guessing they had higher Steppe than the Myceneans.

----------


## matadworf

No actually Myceneans have higher Steppe:

Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
Distance: 3.4885% / 0.03488502 | R4P

57.6
TUR_Barcin_N



17.4
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



16.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus



8.4
GEO_CHG





Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
Distance: 1.1605% / 0.01160544

49.8
TUR_Barcin_N



19.8
TUR_Barcin_C



18.8
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



11.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus




I'm guessing these Phoceans absorbed Anatolian admixture during those 200 years of settlement on the Anatolian coast before emigrating to Iberia. It would be interesting to see what their admixture was like prior to their settlement in those coastal regions of Anatolia. 
Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
Distance: 3.4885% / 0.03488502 | R4P

57.6
TUR_Barcin_N



17.4
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res



16.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus



8.4
GEO_CHG

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.
> 
> "GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.
> 
> "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.
> 
> Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.
> 
> Distance to:
> ...


Er Monnezza: What are you using to calculate those distances? Dodecad12b or G25? From what I have always understood, the orginal Dodecade12B calculator suggested 0.05 as the "critical value/cutoff" to determine if a population is genetically the same/similar, etc. For G25 per Duarte who is a very reputable poster here and one whose posts I read and value, the suggested value is 0.029. I think for G25, 0.05 is considered "ok" as I distance so maybe a related population, etc.

Cheers, PT

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Er Monnezza: What are you using to calculate those distances? Dodecad12b or G25? From what I have always understood, the orginal Dodecade12B calculator suggested 0.05 as the "critical value/cutoff" to determine if a population is genetically the same/similar, etc. For G25 per Duarte who is a very reputable poster here and one whose posts I read and value, the suggested value is 0.029. I think for G25, 0.05 is considered "ok" as I distance so maybe a related population, etc.
> 
> Cheers, PT


I am using Global25 which uses a different "scale" than Dodecad K12b.

These are the Dodecad K12b distances

Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean

12.70876936
Italian_Campania

13.28266798
Italian_Molise

13.33339112
Italian_Calabria

13.97269368
Sephardic_Jew

14.08212586
Greek_Icaria

14.33625714
Italian_Sicily

14.49913338
Italian_Abruzzo

14.57746270
Italian_Jew

14.64152549
Ashkenazi_Jew

15.40629802
Italian_Basilicata



Distance to:
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

10.73443990
Sephardic_Jew

11.90094114
Greek_Icaria

11.95750392
Italian_Jew

11.97646442
Italian_Calabria

12.49214553
Italian_Campania

12.70723416
Morocco_Jew

13.03312702
Ashkenazi_Jew

13.39700713
Italian_Molise

13.84223248
Italian_Sicily

14.39025017
Moldovan_Jewish



As for Global25, two averages are very close if they have a distance less than 1.30, and close if they have a distance less than 1.80. For the distances of an individual to an average, I also tend to consider 3.00 as the cut-off value although technically there is none.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Er Monnezza: Ok, thanks.

----------


## Angela

Sorry, duplicate post.

----------


## Angela

> Er Monnezza;654178]I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.
> 
> "GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.
> 
> "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.
> 
> Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.
> 
> Distance to:
> ...


That's not far apart, not when we're talking of a time span of 2000 years, and a folk migration in between. Your Czechs and Brits and Germans are far apart from the ancient Greeks, not the modern Greeks.

As I've said till I'm blue in the face, that's what from 15-30% of Slavic ancestry will do to you. Doesn't mean they aren't descended from them, and to a substantial degree. 

The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?

----------


## Er Monnezza

> The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?


I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.

In the PCA below I have circled where a 70% Italic and 30% Minoan individual would plot and where you would plot, if I remember correctly you have Ligurian and Emilian origins.

----------


## Angela

Wrong again. 

Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. Ed. We're talking about a component heavy in Anatolian Neolithic with a portion of ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know. 

As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.

I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.

Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.



0.01907727
Greek_Crete:817

0.02057406
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9

0.02065721
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5

0.02151681
Greek_Crete:751

0.02192317
Greek_Crete:Crete6

0.02196253
Greek_Crete:798

0.02251245
Italian_Apulia:GS47

0.02274454
Italian_Campania:NaN128LA

0.02337586
Greek_Crete:795

0.02409433
Italian_Campania:NaN212CR

0.02442495
Italian_Apulia:GS34

0.02469108
Italian_Apulia:ALP379

0.02478552
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6

0.02522396
Greek_Crete:Crete2

0.02559006
Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM

0.02570297
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H

0.02571523
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503

0.02587633
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25

0.02634186
Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG

0.02645257
Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2

0.02665773
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26

0.02674478
Italian_Apulia:ALP583

0.02692147
Greek_Crete:774

0.02692821
Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8

0.02693907
Italian_Campania:NaN46TC

0.02696257
Greek_Crete:Crete3

0.02698185
Greek_Crete:Crete10

0.02698524
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14

0.02726185
Greek_Crete:Crete5

0.02728106
Greek_Crete:793

0.02731252
Greek_Crete:744

0.02736772
Greek_Crete:752

0.02755490
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40

0.02759782
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39

0.02772782
Greek_Crete:741

0.02793692
Greek_Messenia:MES-29

0.02799300
Greek_Crete:753

0.02813933
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4

0.02820586
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8

0.02821764
Italian_Basilicata:PG16

0.02843447
Italian_Basilicata:PG22

0.02856289
Italian_Apulia:Pu7

0.02856418
Greek_Crete:772

0.02859414
Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

0.02873544
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19

0.02916334
Greek_Crete:738

0.02928948
Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17

0.02938125
Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090

0.02938921
Greek_Crete:796

0.02944012
Italian_Calabria:BEL57




All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani? 

Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?

----------


## Kuivamaa

> I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years


Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.

----------


## matadworf

> Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.


Yes my paternal grandparents’ were originally from two villages (mile apart) in the mountains SW of Petalidi (Kokkinon and Paneika) Messinia. These 2 villages were settled by sheepherders from Arcadia. My grandfather’s family settled in Messinia in the 17th c from Alonistaina Arcadia and my grandmother’s from the adjacent village of Roino. Those villages aren’t terribly far from Levidi. My mom’s dad was an Arvanite from Aetos Messinia and his family was originally (18th c) from an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis.

----------


## Francesco

> I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.



I don't think that "Minoan-like people" should be intended litterally as Minoans, but as a population derived from Minoans, corresponding roughly to the Aegean bronze age cluster (wich is, infact, a bit more north-east shifted).

----------


## matadworf

> Wrong again. 
> 
> Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know. 
> 
> As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.
> 
> On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.
> 
> I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.
> ...


Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Er Monnezza: Regarding the ancient Greeks, here are my G25 simulated distances vs. the ancient Greeks. Personally distances < 0.05 are in my view not bad when you are talking about a Bronze Age population. I also provided Dodecad12B. 

Distance to:
PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled

0.04038985
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.04572758
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.04910292
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.05721194
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006

0.06039257
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.06451359
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

0.06715366
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.06777463
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.07226258
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01

0.07688129
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.07833817
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.08132781
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.08498680
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070

0.08603116
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073

0.08751703
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074

0.08888468
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709

0.09012269
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130

0.09016593
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005

0.09765612
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131

0.10024850
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129

0.10234243
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708

0.10989734
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937

0.11253184
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318

0.12455383
GRC_N:I5427



Dodecad 12B
Distance to:
PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY

10.96465686
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017

13.09711037
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017

13.29675524
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017

17.59052586
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017

18.26833873
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017

18.31004369
Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017

19.87612638
Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021

20.75969894
Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017

20.95289717
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017

21.02275434
Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017

21.73581837
Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017

22.36079381
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017

22.39674083
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017

24.49760396
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017

26.66040322
Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017

----------


## Angela

> Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!


It's fitting for someone who was a Classics Minor in university, I suppose, and studied Ancient Greek Literature so intently. :)

----------


## Angela

These are his results from the G25 Europa by Lars:




0.02634406
Greek_Crete

0.02944012
Italian_Calabria:BEL57

0.02962038
Greek_Dodecanese

0.03021238
Italian_Calabria:ALP582

0.03039302
Italian_Calabria:ALP596

0.03295897
Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19

0.03420458
Greek_Kos

0.03722615
Greek_Izmir

0.03839199
Maltese:Malta8AM91

0.04322283
Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H

0.04414997
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04473829
Greek_Laconia

0.04916314
Greek_Thessaly

0.05150904
Greek_Cappadocia

0.05242056
Greek_Central_Anatolia

0.05298864
talian_Tuscany:MURLO114

0.05548768
Italian_Marche:MarABU050D

0.05549273
Italian_Tuscany:NA20502

0.05783949
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.05926052
Albanian:AL82

0.06470630
Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11

0.07877493
Greek_Trabzon

0.08076106
Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2

0.08472952
Gagauz:GAG-183

0.08973513
Portuguese:EBC_Portugal2



Still a lot of Greeks. This guy must not have a lot of samples from Campania, Crete, or Deep Mani.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Wrong again. 
> 
> Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.


Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.

About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.

*Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi*
Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
4.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
1.2 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750

*Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA*
Distance: 0.0423% / 0.04233144
57.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
15.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
7.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
6.9 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
2.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264




> As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.
> 
> On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.


Interesting, could you share your Dodecad K12b values? There are no privacy concerns as they are completely anonymous values.




> I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, *I think you've proved my point for me*. So, not a coincidence at all.


I don't think so. We actually have radically different views.

As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics → Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.






> Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
> 
> 
> 
> 0.01907727
> Greek_Crete:817
> 
> 0.02057406
> Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
> ...


They get it if they have it. Your husband is closer to the very Greeks who have less.

The fact that mainland Greeks and to some extent island Greeks have Slavic ancestry, in different proportions, is shown by Dodecad K12b itself. In a PCA you can just see a cline going from Poland/Ukraine to Central Greece.

----------


## matadworf

> Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.
> 
> About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.
> 
> *Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi*
> Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
> 49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
> 37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
> 7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
> ...


 I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?

----------


## Er Monnezza

> I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?


I don't know who did the averages and how accurate they are, but this is what comes out.

Distance to:
Greek_Macedonia

1.75883484
Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje

1.76618232
Macedonian_Vardar

1.82548624
Macedonian_South

1.94617574
Macedonian_East

2.39703984
Macedonian_Polog

2.98494556
Albanian_Kosovo

3.46690063
Bulgarian_East

3.99801201
Moldovan_Gagauz

4.29685932
Bulgarian_Central

5.06928003
Bulgarian_Thrace

5.19929803
Pomak_Bulgaria

5.21098839
Greek_Thessaly

----------


## ihype02

> Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?


Not really if you use Italic samples.
Cretans are an off shot of Ancient Greeks, Anatolians and some Slavic but they lack the Italic element which the Calabrese has. When you include future samples from Italic people of Calabria, Calabrese wont need any Slavic admixture like the Cretans do.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?


I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?

----------


## ihype02

> I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?


It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.


Agreed, the academic sample is clearly based on Slavic-speaking individuals from Greece.

----------


## matadworf

> I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?


Yes probably because most PCAs I've seen Greek Macedonians tend to cluster with Thessalians and to a lesser extent Peloponnesians.

----------


## Angela

T-rolls starting from Sikeliot have asked me for my data for 12 years. You think I'm going to give it to "you" so you can manipulate it? You must be mad.

My results from Jovialis' calculator:

*Distance to:*
*Angela*

3.83896877
27.00% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019




Not bad for such ancient samples. So much for Davidski coming on here to tell me if I thought I'd have ancestry from ancient inhabitants of the Italian peninsula I was crazy. Yeah, ok.

Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

Distance: 1.2242% / 1.22419699

49.8
Latins_(n=4)



43.8
Mycenaean_Greeks_(n=4)



6.1
Yamna_culture_(n=13)



0.2
Early_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)



0.1
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)



Distance to:
Angela

1.92071940
63.60% Latins_(n=4) + 36.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)




If I'm right about the "Italian Greek" samples, and they are half Latin, then, dividing the 35.40 by 2, I get an additional 18.2% Latin/Ancient Roman, for a total of 81.8%. I'll take that. :)

There are others, but I think my point is made.


Please don't keep addressing my posts. You'll get no further responses from me. There's nothing to learn from t-rolls, so you will be going on ignore.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Angela: I have been meaning to ask you this. The picture on your profile there that is perhaps your 1) Husband? if Not, 2) the person looks very similar to the Italian actor who played in the movie Transatlantic (ie. Adriano Giannini).

Regarding your question earlier about why I often get close distances with mainlanders, I gave a brief response but not one in detail in this forum. I just got my ancestry update and it shows 67% Southern Italian along with 21% Greek and Albanian. I get 9% Northern Italian, so that is 97% there. The other is about 2% Levant, 1% UK (I think Norman signal) and it has < 1% North African which is at I would think Trace level.

My opinion, and that is all it is, I don't think my results are an anomaly for Sicily as Pax noted, he has looked I would assume at those academic samples and indicated that Sicilians can plot with Calabria all the way to Abruzzo. Dodecad12B (updated regional averages, on used Italian Regional averages). G25 modern averages scaled. I think results are similar with those individual G25 results I posted earlier.

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY

3.55695094
Italian_Campania

3.83109645
Italian_Abruzzo

4.03399306
Italian_Sicily

5.85703850
Italian_Calabria

6.29590343
Italian_Apulia

7.04365275
Italian_Marche

7.65706210
Italian_Lazio

8.92854971
Italian_Jews

10.45749014
Italian_Romagna

13.19033737
Italian_Tuscany

14.95717219
Italian_Emilia

15.59693880
Italian_Liguria

18.60546156
Italian_Lombardy

18.76266506
Italian_Piedmont

18.91842752
Italian_Veneto

20.12546645
Italian_Friuli_VG

22.89381139
Italian_Trentino

25.68230909
Italian_Aosta_Valley



G25 modern averages: Distances <= 0.029
Distance to:
PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled

0.01454319
Italian_Campania

0.01467787
Italian_Apulia

0.01578753
Italian_Basilicata

0.01773697
Italian_Abruzzo

0.01877336
Sicilian_East

0.02031561
Italian_Calabria

0.02059654
Italian_Lazio

0.02181560
Italian_Molise

0.02262314
Sicilian_West

0.02453796
Greek_Laconia

0.02454989
Greek_Izmir

0.02598987
Maltese

0.02656442
Italian_Marche

0.02736723
Ashkenazi_Germany

0.02749535
Italian_Umbria

0.02752555
Greek_Crete

0.02881994
Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o

0.02889421
Ashkenazi_Poland

0.02911099
Ashkenazi_Belarussia

0.02941709
Greek_Peloponnese

----------


## torzio

me below

Distance to:	Veritus_scaled
0.01668100	Italian_Veneto:ALP249
0.01917044	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
0.02042612	Italian_Veneto:ALP322
0.02147385	Italian_Northeast:ALP233
0.02198151	Italian_Northeast:KF2700960
0.02202233	Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.02222737	Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02322639	Italian_Northeast:ALP506
0.02457977	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
0.02540501	Italian_Liguria:ALP099
0.02545644	Italian_Lombardy:BGD103
0.02684515	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
0.02693720	Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.02759014	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont98
0.02761297	Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.02817449	Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.02846632	Italian_Veneto:ALP040
0.02880684	Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta18
0.02931015	Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.02936533	Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
0.02974206	Italian_Lombardy:BGD31
0.02975678	Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.03020093	Italian_Veneto:KF1803109
0.03028001	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
0.03060385	Italian_Veneto:ALP209


Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0104% / 0.01037437
48.7	Italian_Northeast
19.6	Italian_Veneto
14.6	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
7.6	Italian_Campania
5.0	Italian_Marche
2.8	Italian_Lombardy
1.1	Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.6	Italian_Bergamo



and my father below

Distance to:	PonsanG25
0.01437478	Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.01701881	Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.01747194	Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.01826642	Italian_Veneto:ALP022
0.02050759	Italian_Veneto:Alp100
0.02056261	Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
0.02062747	Italian_Veneto:ALP273
0.02095686	Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61
0.02097287	Italian_Veneto:KF1800751
0.02104839	Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
0.02112585	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
0.02122525	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
0.02152221	Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152
0.02168709	Italian_Veneto:Alp401
0.02199089	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
0.02289691	Italian_Northeast:ALP233
0.02302960	Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
0.02312385	Italian_Veneto:ALP209
0.02313192	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
0.02359938	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
0.02371097	Italian_Northeast:ALP093
0.02411679	Italian_Veneto:ALP322
0.02420643	Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02425716	Italian_Veneto:ALP249


Target: PonsanG25
Distance: 0.0027% / 0.00274490
32.6	Italian_Veneto
28.4	Italian_Northeast
26.2	Italian_Aosta_Valley
6.4	Italian_Campania
6.4	Italian_Tuscany

----------


## Francesco

> As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics → Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.


I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age

----------


## Kuivamaa

> Yes my paternal grandparents’ were originally from two villages (mile apart) in the mountains SW of Petalidi (Kokkinon and Paneika) Messinia. These 2 villages were settled by sheepherders from Arcadia. My grandfather’s family settled in Messinia in the 17th c from Alonistaina Arcadia and my grandmother’s from the adjacent village of Roino. Those villages aren’t terribly far from Levidi. My mom’s dad was an Arvanite from Aetos Messinia and his family was originally (18th c) from an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis.


Yes, Aetos is like 5km south of Dorion and core part of the Arvanite zone. I’ll check my own distances first chance,paternally I come from the area between Zevgolateion and Neochori, (reportedly distantly related to Maria Callas) and everybody on this side looks stereotypically Greek to an extreme level (including me). The maternal side comes from Spercheios Valley in Phthiotis and this could make the results more interesting.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age


If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).

----------


## Francesco

> If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).


Infact they do not overlap, Sicilians are shifted towards central Italy.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I'm still wondering why academic PCAs, on the other hand, sistematically show a totally different cline, actually going from western mediterranean to Aegean Bronze Age


More or less, PCAs show always the same thing. The more samples there are, the more detailed a PCA is and the more, in my opinion, accurate the positions are. It's just that different software are used and PCAs can be oriented differently, and different samples are used, even numerically. In that academic PCA for example, only a few samples per population are used to represent modern populations.

Indeed, 3 out of 4 Mycenaeans in that PCA show some overlap with southern Italians, Sicilians, Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews. However, I doubt that such a PCA, which is meant to show the big picture, is to be taken completely literally in specific cases. For Italians are Italian North, Italian South, Sicilian and Sardinian. For Italian North at a glance I would say that there are 13 individuals of North Italian/Bergamo HGDP + 8 individuals of Tuscan HGDP, for Italian South it could be the ITS samples, for Sicilian the samples are likely a mix of West, Central and East Sicilians, the Sardinians are probably HGDP Sardinians. For Greeks and for many other etnicities there is only one sample set, for Spanish there are two (or three, if Basques are included).


The PCA is the same as above, I just rotated it, and inserted some labels for better orientation.

----------


## matadworf

> Yes, Aetos is like 5km south of Dorion and core part of the Arvanite zone. I’ll check my own distances first chance,paternally I come from the area between Zevgolateion and Neochori, (reportedly distantly related to Maria Callas) and everybody on this side looks stereotypically Greek to an extreme level (including me). The maternal side comes from Spercheios Valley in Phthiotis and this could make the results more interesting.


Was Maria Callas' family from Mani?

----------


## matadworf

I completely forgot to add the NE Empuries 2:
Distance to:
Anthony_C_scaled

0.02880945
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.04225267
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.05946375
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

0.06017545
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.06712894
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.06894134
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208

0.07635423
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006

0.08201980
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.08911764
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

0.08991847
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01

0.09047390
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.09600165
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.09753253
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.09761076
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.10302050
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073

0.10552084
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130

0.10652826
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070

0.10730957
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074

0.10841855
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709

0.10981169
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> If it shows Mycenaeans overlapping with Sicilians there is projection bias, it is now well known that they do not overlap with any population living today (see the distances all over 10 with modern populations in Dodecad K12b).


Er Monnezza: I think it is fair to say that no modern peoples today are exactly like Bronze Age populations. So perhaps there is a semantics issue here. The Mycenaeans based on the genomes we have clearly a people that would be described as Southern European based on admixture and PCA plots. So which populations today are closest to the ancient Mycenaeans is perhaps a better way analyze and discuss it.

As we get more ancient data, I think it will be more and more shown that modern European populations converge to where they are today in the Iron Age.

On another note, using Dodecad12B, or Eurogenes K13/15/G25, MDLP, etc. cutoff distances to determine how close a modern person is to modern population averages, for example Dodecad cutoff of 5 is normally suggested, I have seen some use 7, G25 <0.03 is the critical value for modern, etc. perhaps should not be applied to ancients the same way.

Lazaradis et al 2014 put it this way

"We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7). Modern Greeks occupy the intermediate space of the PCA along principal component 1 (Fig. 1b) between ancient European and Near Eastern populations, such as those of the Bronze Age. They are not, however, identical to Bronze Age populations, as they are above them along principal component 2 (Fig. 1b). This is because Neolithic farmers shared fewer alleles with Modern Greeks than with Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 8), consistent with additional later admixture"

So there was additional later admixture in Greece but notice the language "least differentiated" not exactly the same or overlap 100%. But on the other hand, it clearly shows which moderns are closest to the Myceneans.



George Stamatoyannopoulos et al 2017 "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations andthe theory of extinction of the medievalpeloponnesean Greeks" is the paper that shows close genetic similarity between both Sicily and mainland Italy and the medeival peloponnesean Greeks. The paper states

"By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysisthe Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians andItalians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponneseansubpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Easternorigin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans andillustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

So notice "least differentiated" when comparing to the Myceneans and very similar when speaking of the medieval Peloponneseans. I think the terminology being used in my opinion needs to be consistent with what the academic articles are stating.

----------


## matadworf

I completely forgot to add the NE Empuries 2:
Distance to:
Anthony_C_scaled

0.02880945
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.04225267
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.05946375
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

0.06017545
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.06712894
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.06894134
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208

0.07635423
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006

0.08201980
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.08911764
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

0.08991847
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01

0.09047390
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.09600165
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.09753253
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.09761076
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.10302050
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073

0.10552084
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130

0.10652826
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070

0.10730957
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074

0.10841855
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709

0.10981169
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005




Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423 ,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466

----------


## matadworf

> Er Monnezza: I think it is fair to say that no modern peoples today are exactly like Bronze Age populations. So perhaps there is a semantics issue here. The Mycenaeans based on the genomes we have clearly a people that would be described as Southern European in that on PCA plots. So which populations today are closest to the ancient Mycenaeans is perhaps a better way analyze and discuss it.
> 
> As we get more ancient data, I think it will be more and more shown that modern European populations converge to where they are today in the Iron Age.
> 
> On another note, using Dodecad12B, or Eurogenes K13/15/G25, MDLP, etc. cutoff distances to determine how close a modern person is to modern population averages, for example Dodecad cutoff of 5 is normally suggested, I have seen some use 7, G25 <0.03 is the critical value for modern, etc. perhaps should not be applied to ancients the same way.
> 
> Lazaradis et al 2014 put it this way
> 
> "We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7). Modern Greeks occupy the intermediate space of the PCA along principal component 1 (Fig. 1b) between ancient European and Near Eastern populations, such as those of the Bronze Age. They are not, however, identical to Bronze Age populations, as they are above them along principal component 2 (Fig. 1b). This is because Neolithic farmers shared fewer alleles with Modern Greeks than with Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 8), consistent with additional later admixture"
> ...


I've made note of that "up to 14.5% Slavic ancestry" to other posters on this site (and other sites) and they insist that's it's up to 30% Slavic by using a Bronze age Aegean population and an Early Slav sample which really doesn't prove anything. You're just using using the most Neo Anatolian Bronze Age sample admixed with a heavy IE group. Modern mainland Greeks (with the exception of Deep Mani and Tsakonians) usually get somewhere around 25-32% Steppe but so does the Logkas 4 MBA (closer to 40%). The Logkas 2 get likes plus 20%. My point is that high Steppe was in Greece way before the Slavic settlements of the middle ages.

----------


## Angela

> Angela: I have been meaning to ask you this. The picture on your profile there that is perhaps your 1) Husband? if Not, 2) the person looks very similar to the Italian actor who played in the movie Transatlantic (ie. Adriano Giannini).
> 
> Regarding your question earlier about why I often get close distances with mainlanders, I gave a brief response but not one in detail in this forum. I just got my ancestry update and it shows 67% Southern Italian along with 21% Greek and Albanian. I get 9% Northern Italian, so that is 97% there. The other is about 2% Levant, 1% UK (I think Norman signal) and it has < 1% North African which is at I would think Trace level.
> 
> My opinion, and that is all it is, I don't think my results are an anomaly for Sicily as Pax noted, he has looked I would assume at those academic samples and indicated that Sicilians can plot with Calabria all the way to Abruzzo. Dodecad12B (updated regional averages, on used Italian Regional averages). G25 modern averages scaled. I think results are similar with those individual G25 results I posted earlier.
> 
> Distance to:
> PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
> 
> ...


I don't think my husband looks at all like Adriano Giannini. My husband is infinitely better looking, even today. Certainly in his prime. :)I have a new avatar; it's him the night he was inducted as President of a local organization.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I don't think my husband looks at all like Adriano Giannini. My husband is infinitely better looking, even today. Certainly in his prime. :)I have a new avatar; it's him the night he was inducted as President of a local organization.


Well he had to be (still is) a handsome fellow, I remember seeing you posted your wedding party picture maybe a year ago or so. So not surprising at all. A Great looking wedding party btw. So I didn't mean any such comparison to be disrespectful :)

As for Adrianno Giannini, one of the better actors I have seen on the Italian MHZ movies and shows. 

Cheers, PT

----------


## Angela

> Well he had to be (still is) a handsome fellow, I remember seeing you posted your wedding party picture maybe a year ago or so. So not surprising at all. A Great looking wedding party btw. So I didn't mean any such comparison to be disrespectful :)
> 
> As for Adrianno Giannini, one of the better actors I have seen on the Italian MHZ movies and shows. 
> 
> Cheers, PT


He's a good actor. I just don't like his face very much, and I think he's a quite different type from my husband. That's all I meant. 

Now, if someone he knows says, I didn't know you posted on eupedia.com, I'll be in big trouble and will have to take it down. :)

----------


## Kuivamaa

> Was Maria Callas' family from Mani?


From Neochori of Oichalia, not Mani. My paternal grandmother was from there as well, which is my connection to Callas. She was also a singer and my family has a couple of classically trained sopranos (I suppose this might not be random). The village itself was inhabited by messinians of nearby villages plus (Interesting enough) a few arcadians from Alonistaina.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I've made note of that "up to 14.5% Slavic ancestry" to other posters on this site (and other sites) and they insist that's it's up to 30% Slavic by using a Bronze age Aegean population and an Early Slav sample which really doesn't prove anything. You're just using using the most Neo Anatolian Bronze Age sample admixed with a heavy IE group. Modern mainland Greeks (with the exception of Deep Mani and Tsakonians) usually get somewhere around 25-32% Steppe but so does the Logkas 4 MBA (closer to 40%). The Logkas 2 get likes plus 20%. My point is that high Steppe was in Greece way before the Slavic settlements of the middle ages.


So I am not clear on if you agree with the 30% Steppe admixture in modern Greeks or not. As for my earlier post, let me clarify, clearly as I noted the Myceneans had some Steppe admixture. The 4 samples from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper ranged from 4% to 16% Steppe. So yes there was some Steppe in Greece during the Bronze Age. On that point you are correct.

Modern Greeks most closely resemble the Myceneans per the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper but with some dilution of the Neolithic EEF ancestry (predominate source ancestry of both Minoans and Myceneans at about 75% EEF). So the Slavic admixture coming into medieval Greece could have provided additional Steppe admixture, I agree.

The Slavic admixture up to 14.5% is from the medieval could perhaps explain the 30% that those "they" indicate some Greeks have today. That is add the 16% from Mycenean + 14.5% Slavic admixture (more EHG type ancestry). However, 30% Steppe would approximate what Northern Italians have and I don't think any Greeks or even Albanians plot that with Northern Italians, maybe Central Italians who on average I think are about 20-25% Steppe I think. I could be wrong, but I don't think I have seen either Greeks or Albanians plot next to Northern Italians who based on what I have generally seen in the published papers and numerous calculators here at Eupedia get about 25-30% Steppe admixture. In fact, the Raveane et al 2019 paper
"Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries inSouthern Europe", which analyzed some 1,616 modern Italians from all 20 political regions seems to put the highest Steppe Admixture at about 27-28% in the North Italy 6 sample. See Figure 4.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492

So is there a paper that you can provide that shows modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture. I would suggest that "they", whoever "they" are cite it. Perhaps a few regions have that high, but the average for all modern Greece I don't think is that high. I think Greece is about 10.5 million people. So I would be curious about any sample selection bias for amateur calculators. I haven't seen such a paper and I tend to focus and spend most of my time on modern and ancient 1) Italian DNA and 2) modern and ancient Greek DNA. Those are the 2 lanes I tend to stay in so to speak. I think if there is a paper published in a leading journal, peer reviewed that we can see the admixture and then compare it to what the amateur/hobbyist are saying, that would be the best way to determine the correct Steppe admixture in modern Greeks.

Again, thanks for your work on the G25 coordinates.

----------


## matadworf

> So I am not clear on if you agree with the 30% Steppe admixture in modern Greeks or not. As for my earlier post, let me clarify, clearly as I noted the Myceneans had some Steppe admixture. The 4 samples from the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper ranged from 4% to 16% Steppe. So yes there was some Steppe in Greece during the Bronze Age. On that point you are correct.
> 
> Modern Greeks most closely resemble the Myceneans per the Lazaradis et al 2014 paper but with some dilution of the Neolithic EEF ancestry (predominate source ancestry of both Minoans and Myceneans at about 75% EEF). So the Slavic admixture coming into medieval Greece could have provided additional Steppe admixture, I agree.
> 
> The Slavic admixture up to 14.5% is from the medieval could perhaps explain the 30% that those "they" indicate some Greeks have today. That is add the 16% from Mycenean + 14.5% Slavic admixture (more EHG type ancestry). However, 30% Steppe would approximate what Northern Italians have and I don't think any Greeks or even Albanians plot that with Northern Italians, maybe Central Italians who on average I think are about 20-25% Steppe I think. I could be wrong, but I don't think I have seen either Greeks or Albanians plot next to Northern Italians who based on what I have generally seen in the published papers and numerous calculators here at Eupedia get about 25-30% Steppe admixture. In fact, the Raveane et al 2019 paper
> "Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries inSouthern Europe", which analyzed some 1,616 modern Italians from all 20 political regions seems to put the highest Steppe Admixture at about 27-28% in the North Italy 6 sample. See Figure 4.
> 
> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492
> 
> ...


Here's my Steppe Admixture (Peloponnesian Greek w/quarter Arvanite), a modern Deep Maniot, Logkas 2 MBA sample (which I tend to cluster with) and a Deep Maniot:



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.5916% / 0.02591560

57.6
TUR_Barcin_N



33.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



6.8
Levant_PPNB



2.6
GEO_CHG






Target: Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1
Distance: 2.8590% / 0.02859041

32.6
Levant_PPNB



30.4
TUR_Barcin_N



20.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



10.0
GEO_CHG



7.0
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA






Target: GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.1093% / 0.02109282

60.0
TUR_Barcin_N



30.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



5.0
Levant_PPNB



2.8
Baltic_LVA_HG



2.2
GEO_CHG






Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.7919% / 0.02791949

64.4
TUR_Barcin_N



33.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



1.8
Araxes_ARM_Kaps




You also have to consider that Greeks have less than 3% EHG or WHG. Northern Italians have upwards of 5-10 % I would guess and that's what plots them North of mainland Greeks.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> Here's my Steppe Admixture (Peloponnesian Greek w/quarter Arvanite), a modern Deep Maniot, Logkas 2 MBA sample (which I tend to cluster with) and a Deep Maniot:
> 
> 
> 
> Target: Anthony_C_scaled
> Distance: 2.5916% / 0.02591560
> 
> 57.6
> TUR_Barcin_N
> ...


Ok, that could explain the plot on the PCA for Northern Italian vs. Greeks. Fair enough. Is there a good paper on modern Greeks that has admixture models. If not, I need to go back through some of those older papers that first came up with WHG+EEF+Steppe+CHG as source populations for modern Europeans and see if modern Greeks were included. Off the top of my head, I don't remember.

----------


## matadworf

Here's a Veneto sample with about the same IE but with additional WHG:

Target: Italian_Veneto:ALP040
Distance: 3.5072% / 0.03507225

62.4
TUR_Barcin_N



30.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



7.6
WHG




Tuscan:

Target: Italian_Tuscany:NA20502
Distance: 2.7431% / 0.02743140

50.8
TUR_Barcin_N



28.4
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



9.8
Levant_PPNB



6.0
GEO_CHG



5.0
WHG

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Metadworf: Yes, those Northern Italian samples are in line with the Raveane et al 2019 paper I linked earlier which put NItaly6 at about 28%. So as I said 25-30% is reasonable estimate for Northern Italy using amateur calculators in my view. Haak et al 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" has a nice clean admixture model (chart) which has modern Greeks (which I assume is a random sample from all regions of modern Greece). Figure 3 is presented and my eyeball summary suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greeks which would put it in line with modern Central Italy (all regions) which is about 20-25%. Tuscany being the higher end of Central Italy with about 25% based on my eyeball test. So Greeks and Albanians plotting slightly SE of Central Italy would be consistent with the results presented in Haak et al 2015. Now, this is a 2015 paper, but a very respected paper, and it would be good to have some other studies with admixture charts to review along with this paper.



So a couple of thoughts, the models you ran that show 30% for those Greek samples, where are they from? One thing I think could be interesting is for you to take those G25 modern Greek samples and run an admixture model with WHG, EEF, Steppe, and other components from the Near East that like Iran and Levant Neolithic and try to model all those modern Greek samples to get an overall average. BTW, are those samples self submitted from various genetics blog site members (e.g., a Eupedia member who is from Greece, someone that use to be on Anthrogenica, etc) or are they from academic papers and one would hope that they are randomly drawn from the regions of Greece, etc.

----------


## matadworf

> Metadworf: Yes, those Northern Italian samples are in line with the Raveane et al 2019 paper I linked earlier which put NItaly6 at about 28%. So as I said 25-30% is reasonable estimate for Northern Italy using amateur calculators in my view. Haak et al 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" has a nice clean admixture model (chart) which has modern Greeks (which I assume is a random sample from all regions of modern Greece). Figure 3 is presented and my eyeball summary suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greeks which would put it in line with modern Central Italy (all regions) which is about 20-25%. Tuscany being the higher end of Central Italy with about 25% based on my eyeball test. So Greeks and Albanians plotting slightly SE of Central Italy would be consistent with the results presented in Haak et al 2015. Now, this is a 2015 paper, but a very respected paper, and it would be good to have some other studies with admixture charts to review along with this paper.
> 
> 
> 
> So a couple of thoughts, the models you ran that show 30% for those Greek samples, where are they from? One thing I think could be interesting is for you to take those G25 modern Greek samples and run an admixture model with WHG, EEF, Steppe, and other components from the Near East that like Iran and Levant Neolithic and try to model all those modern Greek samples to get an overall average. BTW, are those samples self submitted from various genetics blog site members (e.g., a Eupedia member who is from Greece, someone that use to be on Anthrogenica, etc) or are they from academic papers and one would hope that they are randomly drawn from the regions of Greece, etc.


I'm guessing that some are from academic samples other's not. The one thing I can say about my own raw data is that all four of my grandparents were born in the Peloponnese (I know each of their villages and history) before 1890 which is what Stamatayanopolous used for his own paper.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

matadworf: Ok that makes sense. Hey not questioning your results. They are that they are. Given you have all those G25 coordinates, trying to model them using the source populations you used in post #117 could give a better picture about what the average Steppe ancestry is for those samples. In your specific case, I think you are going to be in the right tail of the distribution and have higher Steppe than say the average for Greek populations, assuming that 20% Steppe from Haak et al 2015 is the correct population average and not just reflects the average for the samples they were able to obtain for that paper. So just visualize a Bell shaped curve with a Mean and half the distribution to the right of the mean and half to the Left 95% of the population in a large enough sample (N=30 should do the trick if randomly drawn) will be within 2 Standard deviations. 99% within 3. I suspect you fall in that 3 Sd range and 1% will be statistically outliers.

Like I said, I appreciate your work. I just roll in way that I always try to match up my own personal results and amateur calculators for say modern Italian populations from the various 20 regions to what the extant published papers are reporting.

----------


## matadworf

> matadworf: Ok that makes sense. Hey not questioning your results. They are that they are. Given you have all those G25 coordinates, trying to model them using the source populations you used in post #117 could give a better picture about what the average Steppe ancestry is for those samples. In your specific case, I think you are going to be in the right tail of the distribution and have higher Steppe than say the average for Greek populations, assuming that 20% Steppe from Haak et al 2015 is the correct population average and not just reflects the average for the samples they were able to obtain for that paper. So just visualize a Bell shaped curve with a Mean and half the distribution to the right of the mean and half to the Left 95% of the population in a large enough sample (N=30 should do the trick if randomly drawn) will be within 2 Standard deviations. 99% within 3. I suspect you fall in that 3 Sd range and 1% will be statistically outliers.
> 
> Like I said, I appreciate your work. I just roll in way that I always try to match up my own personal results and amateur calculators for say modern Italian populations from the various 20 regions to what the extant published papers are reporting.


Oh no I'm just trying to understand all of this as well. I added Iran Neolithic to Greek averages:


Target: Greek_Arcadia
Distance: 2.0346% / 0.02034605

44.2
TUR_Barcin_N



25.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



17.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



10.0
Levant_PPNB



3.0
WHG





Target: Greek_Argolis
Distance: 1.9159% / 0.01915860

45.2
TUR_Barcin_N



27.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



14.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



10.8
Levant_PPNB



2.2
WHG



0.6
GEO_CHG





Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 1.6071% / 0.01607104

38.2
TUR_Barcin_N



24.4
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



16.8
Levant_PPNB



16.4
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



3.4
GEO_CHG



0.8
WHG





Target: Greek_East_Taygetos
Distance: 1.8016% / 0.01801639

41.0
TUR_Barcin_N



26.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



16.4
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



13.8
Levant_PPNB



2.0
WHG



0.6
GEO_CHG





Target: Greek_Messenia
Distance: 1.9475% / 0.01947503

45.2
TUR_Barcin_N



27.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



15.2
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



9.6
Levant_PPNB



2.4
WHG




Me:

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.4935% / 0.02493470

56.4
TUR_Barcin_N



29.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



10.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



3.6
Levant_PPNB



1.0
WHG





Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.6912% / 0.01691160

48.6
TUR_Barcin_N



29.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



12.4
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



6.4
Levant_PPNB



3.0
WHG





MTarget: Greek_Messenia
Distance: 1.9347% / 0.01934655

44.4
TUR_Barcin_N



23.4
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



12.6
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



9.2
Levant_PPNB



8.0
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA



2.4
WHG

----------


## matadworf

Italian averages:

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 2.0057% / 0.02005748

37.6
TUR_Barcin_N



24.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



17.4
Levant_PPNB



17.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



2.4
GEO_CHG



1.4
WHG



0.2
Araxes_ARM_Kaps





Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 2.3286% / 0.02328606

42.6
TUR_Barcin_N



23.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



16.0
Levant_PPNB



14.2
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



3.4
WHG



0.6
GEO_CHG





Target: Italian_Marche
Distance: 2.1384% / 0.02138374

45.4
TUR_Barcin_N



26.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



12.6
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



12.0
Levant_PPNB



3.2
WHG



0.8
GEO_CHG





Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.3206% / 0.02320643

48.4
TUR_Barcin_N



28.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



10.8
Levant_PPNB



5.8
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



4.6
WHG



1.6
GEO_CHG





Target: Italian_Umbria
Distance: 2.4622% / 0.02462230

45.6
TUR_Barcin_N



26.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



13.6
Levant_PPNB



8.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic



3.2
WHG



3.0
GEO_CHG





Target: Italian_Veneto
Distance: 2.4246% / 0.02424648

52.6
TUR_Barcin_N



33.4
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



8.0
WHG



6.0
Levant_PPNB

----------


## Francesco

Modern Greeks and Italians froma Raveane.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...a%3Dihub#f0010

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Italian averages:
> 
> Target: Italian_Campania
> Distance: 2.0057% / 0.02005748
> 
> 37.6
> TUR_Barcin_N
> 
> 
> ...




Despite what its followers say, the G25 is not a professional tool. Even if it were a professional tool, it is not enough. Because it should be used with a professional approach, certainly not an amateur one. I find yours results scarcely credible. Levant PNBB is almost 50% EEF, IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is a medieval sample based on only one individual who lived in Iran around 1400-1500 AD (I1955, Late Middle Ages), IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is certainly not an ancestral component. Playing 5 minutes with the G25 is enough to show different results from yours.

Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are only estimates depending on the model, samples and tool used.

----------


## Angela

> Modern Greeks and Italians froma Raveane.
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...a%3Dihub#f0010


Out of juice, but thanks for posting.

----------


## Pax Augusta

If I use the same model with the Greek samples that you used with the Italians, you get these results.

Levant PPNB has a more western position than all the samples from Iran, closer to the original Anatolian farmers. Southern Europeans further west in a PCA tend to get more Levant PPNB, those further east the medieval IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic.

----------


## Angela

Sorry, wrong thread.

----------


## matadworf

> Despite what its followers say, the G25 is not a professional tool. Even if it were a professional tool, it is not enough. Because it should be used with a professional approach, certainly not an amateur one. I find yours results scarcely credible. Levant PNBB is almost 50% EEF, IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is a medieval sample based on only one individual who lived in Iran around 1400-1500 AD (I1955, Late Middle Ages), IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic is certainly not an ancestral component. Playing 5 minutes with the G25 is enough to show different results from yours.
> 
> Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are only estimates depending on the model, samples and tool used.


Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant.

----------


## matadworf

[QUOTE=matadworf;654353]Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant. Also I was guessing that it was a sample from the Neolithic site. Just didn’t catch the historical ref. Immediately. Hey it’s trial and error in good fun.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Ok thanks I wasn’t completely sure and yes I realize that trying to model modem populations with these ancient components (from some of these non academic samples) is difficult. Is there a reasonable Neolithic Iranian sample? It seems like their distances from CHG is pretty significant. Also I was guessing that it was a sample from the Neolithic site. Just didn’t catch the historical ref. Immediately. Hey it’s trial and error in good fun.



If I checked correctly, there are three samples from Neolithic Iran: IRN_Ganj_Dareh, IRN_Wezmeh_N, IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N. They are very similar but not identical. One has to check in the studies which one is most used to represent Iran_N.

The position of the ancestral components in a PCA. As you can see, both Levant_PPNB and Levant_Natufian end up very close to Tur_Barcin_N who are the Anatolian Farmers of the Neolithic (despite PPNB and Natufian aren't the same). A 3D PCA, however, shows you a few more differences.

----------


## Pax Augusta

Including Karelia_HG aka EHG.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Pax Augusta: If You don't mind, what is the averages for all the Greek samples from post #128. Particularly the Yamnaya.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Pax Augusta: If You don't mind, what is the averages for all the Greek samples from post #128. Particularly the Yamnaya.



I had to redo it because I had deleted it. Check if it is exactly the same. Consider that the model is wrong as explained before and includes all samples labelled as Greek, which also includes Slavic language minorities and Greek communities in Turkey. Yamnaya on average is 16.9%.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Pax Augusta: Ok, thanks. Yes, I noted earlier but the notion of modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture does not seem to match with published papers. As documented in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2), Northern Italy 6 seems about 28% Steppe and Northern Italy is I would think on average 25-28%, depending on the region. Haak et al 2015 Figure 3 which I posted earlier suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greece, which could be again only from certain regions. But since Modern Greece and Albanian seem to plot next to Central Italians for the most part, who maybe range 20-25% Steppe with Tuscany being on the high end of that range, those suggesting modern Greeks are 30% maybe slightly more Steppe seems not in line with what has been published.

Franceso in post 125 also posted Figure 2 from the Raveane et al 2022 "Assessing temporal and geographic contacts across the Adriatic Sea through the analysis of genome-wide data from Southern Italy" and it doesn't indicate 30% or more Steppe in modern Greeks either.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Pax Augusta: Ok, thanks. Yes, I noted earlier but the notion of modern Greeks with 30% Steppe admixture does not seem to match with published papers. As documented in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2), Northern Italy 6 seems about 28% Steppe and Northern Italy is I would think on average 25-28%, depending on the region. Haak et al 2015 Figure 3 which I posted earlier suggest about 20% Steppe in modern Greece, which could be again only from certain regions. But since Modern Greece and Albanian seem to plot next to Central Italians for the most part, who maybe range 20-25% Steppe with Tuscany being on the high end of that range, those suggesting modern Greeks are 30% maybe slightly more Steppe seems not in line with what has been published.
> 
> Franceso in post 125 also posted Figure 2 from the Raveane et al 2022 "Assessing temporal and geographic contacts across the Adriatic Sea through the analysis of genome-wide data from Southern Italy" and it doesn't indicate 30% or more Steppe in modern Greeks either.


I repeat what I have already said, and in my opinion this applies both to results obtained with amateur tools and those published in academic articles. Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are just estimates that depend on the model, the samples and the tools used. Therefore, they should always be taken as possible indications and not as something definitive. 

Then we usually refer to regional averages, and if it is true that in populations showing a cline (virtually all large populations usually, with a few exceptions) there are statistically relevant trends, on an individual level it is more complicated, for so many reasons, because people are not clones. If two brothers or sisters do not have 100% identical raw data, let alone two people who are not related even if they are descended from people who have lived in the same area for the last few centuries. Generally speaking, Italians and Greeks belong to two different clines, with a certain overlap in the southernmost part of both. Globally, if one includes all populations of the world, these differences are almost statistically insignificant. They are more significant differences if one looks with a magnifying glass only at Europe or, even better, Eurasia.

----------


## lockdownboredom

It appears that one or more of those samples from Iran you have used are absorbing their fair share of Yamnaya. The 0.6% Yamnaya in a Dodecanesian is quite low.


Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 2.1593% / 0.02159286

56.0
TUR_Barcin_N



14.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



12.8
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



8.8
GEO_CHG



8.4
Levant_Natufian

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I repeat what I have already said, and in my opinion this applies both to results obtained with amateur tools and those published in academic articles. Calculating the percentages of ancestral components is not like measuring the weight of flour or something physical. These are just estimates that depend on the model, the samples and the tools used. Therefore, they should always be taken as possible indications and not as something definitive. 
> 
> Then we usually refer to regional averages, but on an individual level it is even more complicated, for so many reasons, because people are not clones, and if even two brothers or sisters do not have 100% identical raw data, let alone two people who are not related even if they are descended from people who have lived in the same area for the last few centuries. Generally speaking, Italians and Greeks belong to two different clines, with a certain overlap in the southernmost part of both. Globally, if one includes all populations of the world, these differences are almost statistically insignificant. They are more significant differences if one looks with a magnifying glass only at Europe or, even better, Eurasia.


Yes, they are indeed estimates and the estimates obtained are indeed related to the methodology used by the researcher or amateur tool creator. Nevertheless, when a large body of literature (several papers), using different samples, models, etc show a result consistently, it suggest to me the results are a plausible model to explain admixture/ancestry for a population group. Not that is definitive but plausible because as you suggest there can always be new samples taken from a population and it is possible that the samples used as you note in academic papers only represent a "region within a region" and averages from that sub-region may not be the same as the average from another sub-region and thus the entire region (i.e. say the various 9 provinces in Sicily and drawing samples from only 1 or 2 of the provinces and only a few towns within those provinces). From that perspective, to the degree an amateur calculator and model developed from one of those calculators can approximate, within reason, the academic papers, I take that as a plausible model. On the other hand, when amateurs use models that have no basis in any published papers, I tend to question them.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Yes, they are indeed estimates and the estimates obtained are indeed related to the methodology used by the researcher or amateur tool creator. Nevertheless, when a large body of literature (several papers), using different samples, models, etc show a result consistently, it suggest to me the results are a plausible model to explain admixture/ancestry for a population group. Not that is definitive but plausible because as you suggest there can always be new samples taken from a population and it is possible that the samples used as you note in academic papers only represent a "region within a region" and averages from that sub-region may not be the same as the average from another sub-region and thus the entire region (i.e. say the various 9 provinces in Sicily and drawing samples from only 1 or 2 of the provinces and only a few towns within those provinces). From that perspective, to the degree an amateur calculator and model developed from one of those calculators can approximate, within reason, the academic papers, I take that as a plausible model. On the other hand, when amateurs use models that have no basis in any published papers, I tend to question them.


I agree with you. There is no doubt that the greatest number of errors can be seen at the amateur level. But this obviously does not make academic papers error-free.

----------


## Duarte

I took the liberty of using the same samples used by Pax in the posts #s 128 and 135 (G25 scaled coordinates posted next) to calculate the three basic components in my own sample, obviously adding in source data the Taforalt and the Shun Laka to accommodate and adjust my own distances.



```
GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955,0.094473,0.111708,-0.053551,-0.027455,-0.044316,-0.003347,0.00376,-0.004384,-0.03027,-0.016037,0.004709,-0.004046,0.005649,0.008533,0.004072,-0.002121,-0.022948,-0.004434,0.005531,-0.009755,-0.002496,-0.002844,0.001849,-0.008194,-0.001796
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243,0.113823,0.117801,-0.003394,0.034884,-0.020927,0.019801,0.00893,0.000692,-0.045813,-0.036265,0.012017,0.007643,-0.004162,-0.012248,0.019815,0.001193,-0.007432,0.00038,-0.004902,0.002751,-0.000749,-0.00371,0.001356,0.005061,0.000958
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323,0.091058,0.133034,-0.084098,-0.066538,-0.04647,-0.024821,0.009165,-0.006692,-0.027815,-0.004191,0.003735,-0.000899,0.001338,0.004954,-0.000543,-0.004641,-0.012126,0.0019,0.010684,-0.016008,-0.00025,-0.006306,-0.011462,-0.014098,-0.000359
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241,0.092197,0.138112,-0.073916,-0.070091,-0.034776,-0.02259,0.010575,-0.000462,-0.033746,0.003827,0.005846,0.001798,0.002527,-0.011147,-0.011265,0.020551,0.019166,0.00152,0.001383,0.001501,0.012603,-0.004328,-0.008011,-0.009881,0.006706
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349,0.08992,0.123895,-0.082967,-0.060078,-0.051086,-0.016176,0.011516,-0.011538,-0.047245,-0.008565,0.00341,-0.003297,-0.006987,-0.006331,-0.003393,0.009679,0.009388,0.003674,0.002891,-0.001876,0.003993,-0.002597,-0.005916,-0.016629,-0.002036
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351,0.085367,0.136081,-0.071276,-0.070414,-0.042469,-0.01506,0.008225,-0.007615,-0.031906,-0.003462,0.007795,-0.002847,0.000595,0.004679,-0.003257,-0.011138,-0.012908,0.002027,-0.00176,-0.009004,0.001747,-0.000124,-0.008011,-0.006989,-0.001676
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA:I2327,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
IRN_Hasanlu_IA:F38,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
Levant_PPNB:I0867,0.072847,0.17264,-0.030924,-0.147935,0.034468,-0.068607,-0.016451,-0.011999,0.072606,0.048839,0.010555,-0.013038,0.029583,-0.008257,-0.024837,0.007425,0.020861,-0.008615,-0.004651,0.023886,-0.00025,0.004328,0,-0.005302,-0.006826
Levant_PPNB:I1707,0.067156,0.140143,-0.041483,-0.137276,0.032929,-0.063029,-0.006345,-0.017768,0.069947,0.036812,0.031991,-0.014237,0.032111,0.008945,-0.018594,-0.001326,0.003129,-0.004687,0.003142,0.009254,-0.009858,0.013849,0.000123,0.004579,-0.002275
Levant_PPNB:I1710,0.092197,0.182795,-0.021873,-0.134046,0.0397,-0.058009,-0.01034,-0.00923,0.061971,0.038452,0.016564,-0.015586,0.032111,-0.006606,-0.042073,0.020949,0.024251,0.009248,-0.01169,0.026638,-0.001622,0.007296,-0.006409,-0.011206,-0.0097
TUR_Barcin_N:I0707,0.122929,0.184826,0.001886,-0.110144,0.054779,-0.048527,0.00141,-0.011769,0.036201,0.08474,0.011205,0.016335,-0.021704,0.002615,-0.038409,-0.014187,0.022817,0.00114,0.012947,-0.002751,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.008627,0.001566,-0.001676
TUR_Barcin_N:I0708,0.119514,0.173656,-0.003017,-0.101745,0.042469,-0.046854,-0.00094,-0.012692,0.021066,0.074717,0.009419,0.009142,-0.017691,0.000963,-0.041938,-0.007955,0.024121,0.000633,0.015209,-0.013882,-0.022336,0.008903,-0.012448,-0.012652,-0.007305
TUR_Barcin_N:I0709,0.119514,0.19092,0.008674,-0.108206,0.050163,-0.044065,-0.00282,-0.003923,0.038655,0.088202,0.006983,0.012289,-0.023488,0.001789,-0.042345,-0.023999,0.002347,-0.003674,0.011941,-0.019759,-0.006239,0.012242,-0.000616,-0.00723,-0.002994
TUR_Barcin_N:I0723,0.118376,0.178733,0.009805,-0.103037,0.057241,-0.05773,0.003525,0.000462,0.041518,0.080548,0.001624,0.004946,-0.027056,-0.005643,-0.043702,-0.006762,0.03729,0.00152,0.017975,-0.009254,-0.015473,0.002968,0.006779,-0.00012,-0.006227
TUR_Barcin_N:I0724,0.117238,0.168578,0.018856,-0.10013,0.052933,-0.047969,-0.00094,-0.004384,0.031088,0.075446,0.008931,0.01139,-0.017691,-0.003303,-0.045059,0.001989,0.041853,0.012922,0.020363,-0.009755,-0.018717,0.004699,-0.007518,-0.001928,-0.008023
TUR_Barcin_N:I0726,0.120652,0.180764,0.00264,-0.104653,0.053548,-0.054663,-0.005875,-0.002308,0.035383,0.088749,0.009743,0.015586,-0.027651,0.006881,-0.040716,-0.037655,-0.001825,0.002914,0.0225,-0.015382,-0.013351,0.007666,-0.004683,0.00253,0.006945
TUR_Barcin_N:I0727,0.114961,0.185842,0.004525,-0.103683,0.036314,-0.053547,-0.00141,-0.008077,0.031088,0.077633,0.005846,0.01109,-0.031813,0.00055,-0.056052,-0.010607,0.022817,0.009122,0.032807,-0.015007,-0.017968,0.005441,-0.016022,-0.007953,0.008023
TUR_Barcin_N:I0736,0.119514,0.183811,0.006788,-0.091732,0.049855,-0.049921,-0.0047,-0.006,0.04295,0.077815,0.012829,0.013338,-0.020961,-0.011423,-0.04058,0.005701,0.033248,-0.007475,0.007793,-0.007003,-0.016097,0.006306,-0.005916,-0.000964,-0.007544
TUR_Barcin_N:I0744,0.119514,0.186857,0.009428,-0.107883,0.058472,-0.052989,-0.00987,-0.01223,0.03027,0.082371,0.010393,0.01139,-0.031813,0.003441,-0.048045,-0.011668,0.022426,0.000633,0.005279,-0.007253,-0.012852,-0.000124,-0.004683,0.002289,0.001796
TUR_Barcin_N:I0745,0.118376,0.178733,-0.002263,-0.098838,0.049548,-0.046575,-0.010105,-0.002538,0.036814,0.075628,0.010068,0.014237,-0.017542,0.00812,-0.035966,-0.020949,0.005346,0.006334,0.020489,-0.014382,-0.017095,0.008037,0.001356,-0.009278,-0.004191
TUR_Barcin_N:I0746,0.120652,0.180764,0.011691,-0.093024,0.048317,-0.043507,-0.012691,-0.010615,0.034565,0.078726,0.010393,0.009591,-0.023786,0.006606,-0.048316,-0.027844,0.005607,0.004054,0.012947,-0.017383,-0.013102,0.011005,-0.006532,-0.005543,-0.002036
TUR_Barcin_N:I1096,0.120652,0.184826,0.008297,-0.101745,0.051702,-0.044344,-0.005405,-0.003692,0.039473,0.0831,0.010718,0.017385,-0.02438,0.006331,-0.043702,-0.0179,0.025946,-0.00076,0.012821,-0.005878,-0.015722,0.00507,-0.005793,0.007832,-0.016406
TUR_Barcin_N:I1097,0.120652,0.18178,-0.001886,-0.106591,0.054472,-0.048527,-0.00611,-0.007615,0.038246,0.084922,0.008769,0.014687,-0.022894,0.000413,-0.048859,-0.006629,0.021383,0.003421,0.013952,-0.015257,-0.013975,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.009158,-0.002515
TUR_Barcin_N:I1098,0.114961,0.179749,-0.004148,-0.092701,0.040931,-0.045459,-0.001175,-0.010846,0.030883,0.068703,0.009743,0.007044,-0.019623,0.000688,-0.044381,-0.001326,0.032987,0.003294,0.006788,-0.001501,-0.01148,0.007914,0.007025,-0.002771,-0.00958
TUR_Barcin_N:I1099,0.111547,0.19092,0.001508,-0.0969,0.055395,-0.04518,0.003525,-0.010615,0.037223,0.077997,0.006171,0.01124,-0.020515,0.00289,-0.039902,-0.016309,0.021644,0.00266,0.013324,-0.007504,-0.003868,0.002844,0.002588,-0.003012,-0.006347
TUR_Barcin_N:I1100,0.112685,0.17264,-0.001131,-0.084949,0.049855,-0.054384,-0.00705,-0.002308,0.042132,0.088749,-0.003573,0.008692,-0.02557,-0.006881,-0.040173,-0.00769,0.031553,-0.00266,0.007793,-0.01063,-0.023708,-0.00136,0.003574,-0.003253,-0.001557
TUR_Barcin_N:I1101,0.114961,0.179749,0.006411,-0.100776,0.054779,-0.043786,-0.00094,-0.000462,0.042541,0.078544,0.005684,0.008692,-0.023042,0.007432,-0.034744,-0.010209,0.01682,0.003927,0.018729,-0.006378,-0.020713,0.004575,-0.000616,-0.003133,-0.010179
TUR_Barcin_N:I1102,0.106994,0.170609,0.00528,-0.097546,0.059703,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.030474,0.08474,0.005196,0.010041,-0.029732,-0.006193,-0.031759,0.001856,0.029597,0.002154,0.013073,-0.008754,-0.009109,0.010634,-0.003821,-0.003856,-0.002634
TUR_Barcin_N:I1103,0.112685,0.169593,-0.006411,-0.10013,0.044008,-0.046854,-0.00705,-0.005538,0.039269,0.075992,0.011367,0.013638,-0.02215,-0.005505,-0.036644,-0.01127,0.019427,-0.002027,0.010559,-0.008004,-0.016346,0.005564,-0.011216,-0.009278,-0.006945
TUR_Barcin_N:I1580,0.127482,0.182795,-0.003017,-0.103037,0.052317,-0.04769,-0.008695,-0.012692,0.040496,0.076904,0.007307,0.014987,-0.020961,-0.003716,-0.043159,0.001724,0.035986,-0.001647,0.006788,-0.009254,-0.010357,-0.001731,0.000246,-0.000482,-0.010298
TUR_Barcin_N:I1581,0.113823,0.175687,0.001131,-0.110467,0.057241,-0.045459,-0.003995,-0.008077,0.040905,0.084558,0.004222,0.013488,-0.02215,-0.000826,-0.04248,0.003978,0.040549,0.004687,0.005405,-0.005628,-0.010731,0.00643,-0.013557,0.003494,-0.000958
TUR_Barcin_N:I1583,0.119514,0.180764,0.00264,-0.10756,0.048932,-0.051037,-0.010575,-0.008769,0.035792,0.087656,0.012342,0.012139,-0.023786,0.005092,-0.036644,-0.006497,0.020861,0.002534,0.011816,-0.003877,-0.011729,0.004822,0.001232,-0.006748,-0.00491
WHG:I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.159107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449
WHG:Rochedane,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111,0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0231,0.121791,0.083273,0.04714,0.114666,-0.032314,0.048527,0.002585,-0.003,-0.052358,-0.073623,0.00065,0.004796,0.000297,-0.023258,0.030401,0.019491,0.007041,-0.00114,-0.002388,0.015007,-0.004243,-0.002102,0.003697,0.011086,0.00012
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012532,-0.005269
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0438,0.124067,0.085304,0.043369,0.119511,-0.032621,0.049643,0.0047,-0.000462,-0.065448,-0.078179,-0.003085,0.003897,-0.009366,-0.030965,0.029587,0.005569,0.005867,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.016383,-0.003868,0.000866,0.014543,0.022413,-0.006227
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.018918,0.002036
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0444,0.125205,0.08632,0.045632,0.119188,-0.024928,0.047969,0.00564,-0.001154,-0.050108,-0.073259,0.002598,0.002847,0,-0.042663,0.029451,0.022938,-0.000522,0.003294,-0.010307,0.013131,-0.015098,0.004204,0.010846,0.016267,0.003952
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I7489,0.122929,0.090382,0.042238,0.110144,-0.03416,0.043507,0.004935,0.000692,-0.058085,-0.082735,0.005196,0.004046,-0.010406,-0.006881,0.041123,0.01485,-0.008345,-0.006588,-0.002388,0.006878,-0.010232,-0.001731,0.014173,0.018075,-0.006586
MAR_Taforalt:TAF009,-0.162767,0.07718,-0.024513,-0.079135,0.009848,-0.047969,-0.052877,0.020538,0.13294,0.002005,0.025333,-0.026676,0.057978,-0.052985,0.072882,-0.034076,0.002347,-0.05625,-0.130475,0.04152,-0.026204,-0.120314,0.067909,-0.016508,0.012334
MAR_Taforalt:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
MAR_Taforalt:TAF011,-0.194638,0.085304,-0.021873,-0.088825,0.026774,-0.059961,-0.072148,0.019845,0.161165,0.002551,0.016564,-0.035818,0.080574,-0.051196,0.066367,-0.037523,0.012126,-0.071199,-0.14493,0.035767,-0.041427,-0.12662,0.068279,-0.011447,0.018441
MAR_Taforalt:TAF013,-0.196914,0.082258,-0.026398,-0.088502,0.032314,-0.057173,-0.074733,0.017768,0.156665,0.002369,0.02111,-0.036717,0.077898,-0.052159,0.072746,-0.038584,0.000913,-0.069552,-0.141285,0.039894,-0.035687,-0.125384,0.075428,-0.011206,0.020477
MAR_Taforalt:TAF014,-0.201467,0.079211,-0.018479,-0.083011,0.034468,-0.055499,-0.076848,0.014538,0.162596,0.002005,0.020461,-0.029374,0.078344,-0.054223,0.066503,-0.025192,0.017602,-0.063724,-0.151215,0.04127,-0.042176,-0.126126,0.077153,-0.014339,0.012693
CMR_Shum_Laka:I10871_new_all,-0.605539,0.051792,0.013576,0.027455,0.000308,0.008646,0.129491,-0.098073,0.010431,-0.002551,-0.002436,-0.023529,-0.020367,-0.007569,0.000271,-0.002652,0.014864,0.02179,-0.004777,-0.001876,-0.003993,0.000742,0.001725,0.000723,-0.004191
CMR_Shum_Laka:I10872_new_all,-0.597571,0.062963,0.012822,0.031008,-0.008925,0.003068,0.116565,-0.09415,0.012271,-0.011299,0.003735,-0.018284,-0.017988,-0.00055,-0.001086,-0.003182,0.015646,0.016343,-0.001006,-0.003752,-0.000624,0.001484,-0.006162,-0.006507,0.002754
CMR_Shum_Laka:I10873_new_all,-0.610092,0.04773,0.016593,0.024871,-0.000615,0.004183,0.146412,-0.109611,0.005727,0.006378,0.002598,-0.043012,-0.024232,0.003991,0.002307,-0.002652,0.001695,0.022677,-0.004651,0.002251,-0.001622,-0.003462,-0.001972,-0.000723,-0.005987
```

----------


## matadworf

> I had to redo it because I had deleted it. Check if it is exactly the same. Consider that the model is wrong as explained before and includes all samples labelled as Greek, which also includes Slavic language minorities and Greek communities in Turkey. Yamnaya on average is 16.9%.


I tried your model as well.



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.2815% / 0.02281497

60.0
TUR_Barcin_N



30.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



9.4
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA



0.4
WHG

----------


## Francesco

> I tried your model as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Target: Anthony_C_scaled
> Distance: 2.2815% / 0.02281497
> 
> 60.0
> TUR_Barcin_N
> ...



This seems in line with the study from Raveane I linked above

----------


## Duarte

> I took the liberty of using the same samples used by Pax in the posts #s 128 and 135 (G25 scaled coordinates posted next) to calculate the three basic components in my own sample, obviously adding in source data the Taforalt and the Shun Laka to accommodate and adjust my own distances.
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
> IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955,0.094473,0.111708,-0.053551,-0.027455,-0.044316,-0.003347,0.00376,-0.004384,-0.03027,-0.016037,0.004709,-0.004046,0.005649,0.008533,0.004072,-0.002121,-0.022948,-0.004434,0.005531,-0.009755,-0.002496,-0.002844,0.001849,-0.008194,-0.001796
> IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243,0.113823,0.117801,-0.003394,0.034884,-0.020927,0.019801,0.00893,0.000692,-0.045813,-0.036265,0.012017,0.007643,-0.004162,-0.012248,0.019815,0.001193,-0.007432,0.00038,-0.004902,0.002751,-0.000749,-0.00371,0.001356,0.005061,0.000958
> IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323,0.091058,0.133034,-0.084098,-0.066538,-0.04647,-0.024821,0.009165,-0.006692,-0.027815,-0.004191,0.003735,-0.000899,0.001338,0.004954,-0.000543,-0.004641,-0.012126,0.0019,0.010684,-0.016008,-0.00025,-0.006306,-0.011462,-0.014098,-0.000359
> ...


Out of curiosity, using my K36 coordinates simulated to G25. The result shows the same components in practically the same order of magnitude, just with a smaller distance.

----------


## matadworf

> This seems in line with the study from Raveane I linked above


I agree and thanks for the study! Super interesting read.

----------


## matadworf

Was just listening to Razib Khan's substack podcast and he mentioned that he has a new paper coming out on Greeks. He didn't get specific though. Thought it was worth mentioning.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> Was just listening to Razib Khan's substack podcast and he mentioned that he has a new paper coming out on Greeks. He didn't get specific though. Thought it was worth mentioning.


Matadworf: Interesting. Is this a paper he plans to submit to a journal? or a something he is putting together for his Blog or on the Insight which seems to be inactive in terms of content (last podcast was 15 September 2020).

----------


## matadworf

> Matadworf: Interesting. Is this a paper he plans to submit to a journal? or a something he is putting together for his Blog or on the Insight which seems to be inactive in terms of content (last podcast was 15 September 2020).


I believe it’ll be posted on his substack unsupervised learning site. I have a subscription and I’ll ask him in the comments section. He typically responds to comments. He just did a really interesting podcast on ancient ancestral populations.
https://razib.substack.com/

----------


## matadworf

> Matadworf: Interesting. Is this a paper he plans to submit to a journal? or a something he is putting together for his Blog or on the Insight which seems to be inactive in terms of content (last podcast was 15 September 2020).


Here’s the article;
https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...m_medium=email

----------


## torzio

Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0232% / 0.02315485
54.2	TUR_Barcin_N
37.5	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.0	WHG
1.2	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.1	CMR_Shum_Laka


and my father below
Target: PonsanG25
Distance: 0.0179% / 0.01785885
54.4	TUR_Barcin_N
39.7	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.9	WHG

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> Here’s the article;
> https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...m_medium=email


All I can say is I really enjoyed reading that article. Thanks

----------


## matadworf

> All I can say is I really enjoyed reading that article. Thanks


You’re welcome.

----------


## Angela

He finally got around to saying something about it?

It would have been nice if he had written something like that back when I was alone here arguing with all of the followers of that 19th century Nordicist Fallermayer. The thread on the Peloponnese paper was a disaster because of them, as was the thread on the Mycenaean paper. 

It's even going on here to some extent. These people never stop their t-rolling.

----------


## matadworf

> He finally got around to saying something about it?
> 
> It would have been nice if he had written something like that back when I was alone here arguing with all of the followers of that 19th century Nordicist Fallermayer. The thread on the Peloponnese paper was a disaster because of them, as was the thread on the Mycenaean paper. 
> 
> It's even going on here to some extent. These people never stop their t-rolling.


I know I wondered why it took him so long to write this piece and why now? Do you think it has anything to do with the upcoming Reich paper?

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> I know I wondered why it took him so long to write this piece and why now? Do you think it has anything to do with the upcoming Reich paper?


Some reports, some of which have been mentioned here, indicate that there are some additional Mycenean samples that show similar results presented by Lazaridis et al 2016 where the 4 Myceneans analyzed in that paper harbored 4 to 16% Steppe admixture, and that the elite Mycenean was not significantly different from the non-elite. Those results were not well received by certain segments of the amateur genetics/archeology community on other blogs and sites, and by few eupedia members who are allies/supporters of the theories of those said other blogs and sites.

That is my take, Angela who has been here way longer than I have can obviously provide a more detailed answer that goes further back than my time here.

----------


## Constantine

> I know I wondered why it took him so long to write this piece and why now? Do you think it has anything to do with the upcoming Reich paper?


I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it did.

----------


## Angela

> Some reports, some of which have been mentioned here, indicate that there are some additional Mycenean samples that show similar results presented by Lazaridis et al 2016 where the 4 Myceneans analyzed in that paper harbored 4 to 16% Steppe admixture, and that the elite Mycenean was not significantly different from the non-elite. Those results were not well received by certain segments of the amateur genetics/archeology community on other blogs and sites, and by few eupedia members who are allies/supporters of the theories of those said other blogs and sites.
> 
> That is my take, Angela who has been here way longer than I have can obviously provide a more detailed answer that goes further back than my time here.


That's an excellent summary of the findings of the Lazaridis paper, but what most incensed some members of the amateur community, vociferous on eurogenes and anthrogenica and even here was his conclusion that modern Greeks, while they show additional steppe ancestry most probably introduced by the Slavic migrations, can be modeled as mainly the descendants of the Greeks of the Bronze and Iron Age. They were not, therefore, merely some amalgamation of Albanians, Slavs and Arabs, of all people. 

I don't recall hearing anything from Khan about that, or, indeed, about the possibility of a homeland for the first form of Indo-European south of the Caucasus, which has been hinted at by Haak and Kristiansen as well as more than hinted at by Reich. 

Who knows how many people have gotten an advance copy and while not revealing the contents, either suddenly have a "come to Jesus" conversion and decide to write on the topics from a new point of view, or have time to try to find things to attack before the paper is even out. It happens all the time, not just in academia, or related fields, but in politics as well. 

People are so predictable.

----------


## matadworf

> That's an excellent summary of the findings of the Lazaridis paper, but what most incensed some members of the amateur community, vociferous on eurogenes and anthrogenica and even here was his conclusion that modern Greeks, while they show additional steppe ancestry most probably introduced by the Slavic migrations, can be modeled as mainly the descendants of the Greeks of the Bronze and Iron Age. They were not, therefore, merely some amalgamation of Albanians, Slavs and Arabs, of all people. 
> 
> I don't recall hearing anything from Khan about that, or, indeed, about the possibility of a homeland for the first form of Indo-European south of the Caucasus, which has been hinted at by Haak and Kristiansen as well as more than hinted at by Reich. 
> 
> Who knows how many people have gotten an advance copy and while not revealing the contents, either suddenly have a "come to Jesus" conversion and decide to write on the topics from a new point of view, or have time to try to find things to attack before the paper is even out. It happens all the time, not just in academia, or related fields, but in politics as well. 
> 
> People are so predictable.


In jest Khan mentioned (on a recent podcast) that he didn’t receive an advanced copy of the Southern Arc paper from Reich or Patterson because they “didn’t trust” him. I found that interesting.

----------


## Angela

> In jest Khan mentioned (on a recent podcast) that he didn’t receive an advanced copy of the Southern Arc paper from Reich or Patterson because they “didn’t trust” him. I found that interesting.


Without accusing Khan of anything, if I had gotten a preview but didn't want to get anyone in trouble, and lying didn't violence my personal code of ethics, that's what I would say too. :)

On the other hand, I have suspected in the past that perhaps Khan was one of the conduits for "leaks" to Eurogenes, giving him time to prepare his counterarguments, and perhaps the Reich Lab has similar suspicions. 

Who knows?

People who think that this community isn't a hot bed of its own brand of noxious politics are kidding themselves.

----------


## blevins13

> All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions. 
> 
> If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix? 
> 
> To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.
> 
> What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks. 
> 
> It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.


To make the story short, can you accept this. Albanians has not written this. 

According to the Chronicle of Monemvasia, in 805 the Byzantine governor of Corinth went to war with the Slavs, exterminated them, and allowed the original inhabitants to claim their lands. They regained control of the city of Patras and the region was re-settled with Greeks.Many Slavs were transported to Asia Minor, and many Asian, Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks were resettled in the Peloponnese. By the turn of the 9th century, the entire Peloponnese was formed into the new thema of Peloponnesos, with its capital at Corinth. 

How Trandafilos has counted for these events in his research. Does this counts as well as population transfers? Or this is not included? 
From what you write it seems that you have no clue of the history o Morea that a PCA has no way to capture it. 

Do you know that there is an Arvanite song about Morea. These Arvanites now live in Italy after. ottomans conquered Morea.
Probably you don’t even know where Morea is?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Angela

I've been waiting for you to show up. You took your sweet time. 

You don't make any more sense this time around than you did before, even if the story has changed. First the Greeks of the Peloponnese were the product of Albanians, Slavs and Arabs.

Now, because some musty document for which there is no objective evidence says so, we're to believe that the people of the Peloponnese have no Slavic in them; instead they're the product of Greeks from all over the diaspora. What on earth to make of those high steppe numbers, then?

Oh, wait, didn't you proudly claim you know nothing of population genetics?

Never mind, as with the tales recounted by Herodotus, I will in the future treat this as "Holy Writ", I assure you.

----------


## blevins13

> I've been waiting for you to show up. You took your sweet time. 
> 
> You don't make any more sense this time around than you did before, even if the story has changed. First the Greeks of the Peloponnese were the product of Albanians, Slavs and Arabs.
> 
> Now, because some musty document for which there is no objective evidence says so, we're to believe that the people of the Peloponnese have no Slavic in them; instead they're the product of Greeks from all over the diaspora. What on earth to make of those high steppe numbers, then?
> 
> Oh, wait, didn't you proudly claim you know nothing of population genetics?
> 
> Never mind, as with the tales recounted by Herodotus, I will in the future treat this as "Holy Writ", I assure you.


Believe what you want, but you can’t change history with PCA. Byzantine sources say that people from the area of village of your husband has been brought back to Morea to replace the Slavs. This discovery should make you proud, but somehow you choose to ignore it. 
It is obvious where this new genetic mix of Morea will show in PCA considering also the Albanian additions. 

I guess Stamatoyannopoulos failed to exclude their impact even though he claimed continuity. Probably he meant continuity with Greek populations from Sicily and Anatolia, but than why bother excluding the new comers of 1923 at the end they are all Greeks. 






Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Francesco

Generally speaking, I doubt medieval demographic "replacement" should be taken literally as a total annihilation of the previous population. It was pretty common for rulers to use form of "remigration" as a form of political land control or pacification: for example, we know that Sicily was repopulated by Northern Italian colonist by Federico Ii di Svevia, but the genetic impact of this movement, which I assume may even be detectable, surely didn't completely displace the autoctonous population. I assume the same thing could be valid for the Peloponnese too.

Edit: the lombard repopulation was an initiative of the Norman kingdom, not of Federico II

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Generally speaking, I doubt medieval demographic "replacement" should be taken literally as a total annihilation of the previous population. It was pretty common for rulers to use form of "remigration" as a form of political land control or pacification: for example, we know that Sicily was repopulated by Northern Italian colonist by Federico Ii di Svevia, but the genetic impact of this movement, which I assume may even be detectable, surely didn't completely displace the autoctonous population. I assume the same thing could be valid for the Peloponnese too.



On the northern Italian colonists in Sicily, who arrived after the Norman conquest of Sicily, a genetic study by some geneticists at the University of Bologna was announced (although not officially) years ago. Nothing has been heard of them since.

----------


## Angela

> Believe what you want, but you can’t change history with PCA. Byzantine sources say that people from the area of village of your husband has been brought back to Morea to replace the Slavs. This discovery should make you proud, but somehow you choose to ignore it. 
> It is obvious where this new genetic mix of Morea will show in PCA considering also the Albanian additions. 
> 
> I guess Stamatoyannopoulos failed to exclude their impact even though he claimed continuity. Probably he meant continuity with Greek populations from Sicily and Anatolia, but than why bother excluding the new comers of 1923 at the end they are all Greeks. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For one thing, part of my husband's ancestry is from Napoli (Campania), second of all if you know the name of my husband's paternal villages, by all means list them.

Why, by the way, have you abandoned the Fallermayer "theory"? I thought you loved it.

You've gone from a combination including Slavs to excluding them altogether. Amazing.

However, if the Peloponnese was repopulated with Greeks from Asia, Sicily and Calabria, where on earth did they get all that Northeastern like ancestry? You do know it doesn't exist in Southern Italy, right?

Your comment about the paper is just silly. How could he find people with a direct ancestral line back to the 800s.

I'll try to leave you with a bit of caution in interpreting decrees, chronicles etc. from the past. My Celt-Ligurian ancestors fought the Romans ferociously. It was one of the last areas on the Italic peninsula to become part of Rome. The Romans issued a decree in which they stated that to end the problem once and for all, they'd exterminate all the could, and they'd send the rest to live in what is now Campania. You know what, a few centuries later there is still evidence they were there. They were still worshipping their stelae in 500 AD and later. 

Far too often rulers had their court scribes write what they wanted people to think, what would add to their glory, not what actually happened. Or, they just wrote tales heard. I'll bet you anything you were convinced Herodotus was right about the Etruscans, weren't you? 

Might some Slavs have been expelled? Possibly, given there is less Slavic in the Peloponnese than in more northern areas of Greece, although it could also be the case that the migration just petered out, as perhaps happened with the Italics in southern Italy. Could some diaspora Greeks have been brought back? Possibly.

However, for the umpteenth time: changes in the local ancestry are only caused by "FOLK MIGRATIONS" of a significant size.

If you're going to post on population genetics threads, for God's sakes learn something about the field, and take your own personal biases OUT of consideration, or you'll only be taken seriously by other dilettantes with some sort of strange personal agenda.

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## Angela

> Generally speaking, I doubt medieval demographic "replacement" should be taken literally as a total annihilation of the previous population. It was pretty common for rulers to use form of "remigration" as a form of political land control or pacification: for example, we know that Sicily was repopulated by Northern Italian colonist by Federico Ii di Svevia, but the genetic impact of this movement, which I assume may even be detectable, surely didn't completely displace the autoctonous population. I assume the same thing could be valid for the Peloponnese too.


Completely agree.

Even to calculate the impact, one would need reliable numbers for the local, pre-migration population, and similarly reliable numbers for the incomers.

Best of all, one would like to have ancient dna from both before the migration and after it, and accounting for any regional differences. 

We do, of course, know the names of the "Lombard" towns. I can see how it occurred to geneticists to plan a study comparing the inhabitants of such towns with those of people from other towns not only perhaps as to autosomal analysis, but perhaps based on yDna. However, according to Pax nothing has been heard of the study which was discussed. 

I can well imagine it would be very difficult to do given that the myriad historical events affecting the different regions of Sicily would make it difficult to disentangle the various factors affecting ancestry. Still would be interesting to see a study like that.

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## matadworf

I’ve read 2 books on medieval Greece and the historical consensus was that the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese uneventfully particularly in the Western half. I’m no expert but I’ve never read anything about a plan for the eradication of Slavs and/or any sort of population replacement from Anatolia or Italy. That’s not to say there weren’t settlers from those regions to the Peloponnese but I would guess in fairly small numbers (coastal towns like Monemvasia)? I’m sure there was a flow of Byzantine scholars to Mistra or Monemvasia but in both Eastern and Western Morea Slavs seemed to have mixed fairly fluidly with the native population which is pretty clear when you look at modern Greek pop genetics.

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## bigsnake49

> I'll reply to the best of my ability,
> 
> 1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.
> 
> 2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).
> 
> 3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others? 
> 
> 4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?
> ...


Eupater, I agree with you on some things as in we should celebrate all of the cultures that made us. BTW, I lived in a 90% Arvanite village in Thrace during my formative years. I don't agree with you on the reliance on ancient and even Byzantine authors. The term historians as we understand it now cannot be applied to ancient Roman and Byzantine authors. If available, I would rely more on Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman tax rolls. It is well known that Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman emperors moved populations around to account for population losses due to national disasters, war, epidemics. So depending solely on historiographers without backup sources is dangerous. My favorite example is the battle of Thermopylae. Herodotus says that there were 1M Persians and allies arrayed against the Greeks. First of all there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of anywhere near that number of people being there. Second, the logistics of feeding and moving 1M people would have been a challenge in our current age much less back then. My second favorite example is the Trojan war. There is no archaeological evidence of a 10 year war. Was there a raid by the Sea People in the 12th century BC? Possibly, 10 year war, improbable.

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## blevins13

[QUOTE=Angela;654683]
Your comment about the paper is just silly. How could he find people with a direct ancestral line back to the 800s.


Definitely silly it comes from an Albanian.
Just to clarify my comment states a deficiency in research methodology. If he is excluding recent transfer populations from Turkey, than previous transfer should be excluded as well or you will have a methodology deficiency that makes the conclusion doubtful. 

There is a reasonable doubt that majority of the current male lines do not come from Mycenaean Greeks, and not even from Classical Greeks. Does this count for a population replacement? Or since the PCA is what it is it does not matter who is the father? 



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## bigsnake49

I cannot wait for additional sample that can help us understand the genetic history of the Greek peninsula after the Minoans and the Mycenaeans. People forget that there were 4 major Greek tribes and about 230 minor ones. Just because Achaeans were relatively low in steppe it does not mean that later arrivals did not have higher steppe admix. So I am waiting for baited breath for the newest papers. They should keep us busy.

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## blevins13

> Eupater, I agree with you on some things as in we should celebrate all of the cultures that made us. BTW, I lived in a 90% Arvanite village in Thrace during my formative years. I don't agree with you on the reliance on ancient and even Byzantine authors. The term historians as we understand it now cannot be applied to ancient Roman and Byzantine authors. If available, I would rely more on Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman tax rolls. It is well known that Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman emperors moved populations around to account for population losses due to national disasters, war, epidemics. So depending solely on historiographers without backup sources is dangerous. My favorite example is the battle of Thermopylae. Herodotus says that there were 1M Persians and allies arrayed against the Greeks. First of all there is absolutely no archaeological evidence of anywhere near that number of people being there. Second, the logistics of feeding and moving 1M people would have been a challenge in our current age much less back then. My second favorite example is the Trojan war. There is no archaeological evidence of a 10 year war. Was there a raid by the Sea People in the 12th century BC? Possibly, 10 year war, improbable.


Do not go that back in time, Ottomans had population registers, they register population every 20 years. These were organized empires taxed based on land (pronaia) we still use the same name in Albanian or timar later under Ottomans. It is not that difficult to figure this out. 


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## blevins13

> I cannot wait for additional sample that can help us understand the genetic history of the Greek peninsula after the Minoans and the Mycenaeans. People forget that there were 4 major Greek tribes and about 230 minor ones. Just because Achaeans were relatively low in steppe it does not mean that later arrivals did not have higher steppe admix. So I am waiting for baited breath for the newest papers. They should keep us busy.


Assuming that they came from steppe, what if they did not? 


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## Angela

> Do not go that back in time, Ottomans had population registers, they register population every 20 years. These were organized empires taxed based on land (pronaia) we still use the same name in Albanian or timar later under Ottomans. It is not that difficult to figure this out. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Good. Then let's see the census figures broken out for each ethnicity for the periods before and after the exile of all the Slavs and the importation of all these Italians and Anatolian Greeks. 

I would also want some foundation evidence as to how many census takers there were to cover the country, the methods used etc. 

If you're going to claim a mass replacement of the entire Peloponnese you're going to have to do better than you've done so far.

You also haven't answered my question about the steppe percentages in modern people of the Peloponnese. It's more than would be in Sicilian Greeks or certainly than in Anatolian Greeks. Where did the excess come from if all the Slavs were expelled? If you can't satisfactorily answer that question then your hypothesis fails.

Also, what made you turn against Fallermayer? You were one of his biggest supporters. It was all Slavs and Albanians, not an actual Greek in sight.

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## Angela

> Assuming that they came from steppe, what if they did not? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


It doesn't matter from which direction the Greek speakers came. 

We have samples of EBA people from Greece who have no steppe, and then we have later samples that have steppe ancestry. 

It didn't drop out of the sky. People carried it into Greece. Period.

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## bigsnake49

> Assuming that they came from steppe, what if they did not? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


If they did not then they did not :Laughing: .

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## bigsnake49

> Do not go that back in time, Ottomans had population registers, they register population every 20 years. These were organized empires taxed based on land (pronaia) we still use the same name in Albanian or timar later under Ottomans. It is not that difficult to figure this out. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Roman and Byzantine empires also had tax rolls. Romans had a census I believe every 10 years and had very elaborate and sophisticated land surveying methods. In the beginning the Romans auctioned off the taxes due like the Greeks but later the tax collectors were provincial officials. Th Byzantine's continued using the Roman taxation system. Just because we don't have extant tax rolls everywhere does not mean they did not exist.

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## Angela

> I cannot wait for additional sample that can help us understand the genetic history of the Greek peninsula after the Minoans and the Mycenaeans. People forget that there were 4 major Greek tribes and about 230 minor ones. *Just because Achaeans were relatively low in steppe it does not mean that later arrivals did not have higher steppe admix*. So I am waiting for baited breath for the newest papers. They should keep us busy.


Carrying what yDna do you suspect? 

If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?

What other steppe yDna might they have carried? One cannot, of course, count the yDna of the Slavs who came so much later, so what is left do you speculate?

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## bigsnake49

> Carrying what yDna do you suspect? 
> 
> If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?
> 
> What other steppe yDna might they have carried? One cannot, of course, count the yDna of the Slavs who came so much later, so what is left do you speculate?


R1b-Z2103 would have been the major carrier of steppe ancestry. Right now depending on the area, R1b can be as high as 23% or as low as 11%. What's interesting is that in Macedonia and Thrace R1b is at 13%. Instead R1b percentage in Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) is 20.5% and The Aegean Islands and Ionia is 22.8%. I would have expected the percentages to be reversed.

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## Angela

> Roman and Byzantine empires also had tax rolls. Romans had a census I believe every 10 years and had very elaborate and sophisticated land surveying methods. In the beginning the Romans auctioned off the taxes due like the Greeks but later the tax collector were provincial officials. Th Byzantine's continued using the Roman taxation system.* Just because we don't have extant tax rolls everywhere does not mean they did not exist.*


Good grief! No, it doesn't mean that, but what good does it do anyone to know that they once existed if we don't have them and therefore we have no idea what they actually SHOWED. It means there is NO PROOF of what they contained, and therefore no proof of the statements put forth by Blevins that there was a population replacement in the Peloponnese.

People, let's have some logic and common sense, shall we? 

It's like Amber Heard constantly blathering about the mountains of evidence she has for her allegations, but the evidence was and is never produced, or if it's produced it's fragmentary, or the context is completely different from the one asserted, or the "evidence" is not an original document and so could have been altered. 

You wouldn't even win in traffic court with this kind of reasoning, much less put together a population genetics paper.

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## Angela

> R1b-Z2103 would have been the major carrier of steppe ancestry. Right now spending on the area, R1b can be as high as 23% or as low as 11%. What's interesting is that in Macedonia and Thrace R1b is at 13%.


It's been very hard for me to find good sources for Greek ydna. Could you provide me with a link to the papers you're using?

Is that just R1b Z2103 or all R1b?

Clearly, if we're trying to estimate the amount of steppe ancestry which arrived in Greece during the relevant centuries, we're not interested in very downstream clades.

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## blevins13

> Roman and Byzantine empires also had tax rolls. Romans had a census I believe every 10 years and had very elaborate and sophisticated land surveying methods. In the beginning the Romans auctioned off the taxes due like the Greeks but later the tax collector were provincial officials. Th Byzantine's continued using the Roman taxation system. Just because we don't have extant tax rolls everywhere does not mean they did not exist.


And ottomans did the same.


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## Dorian9

It's very possible that the reason of why don't Peloponnesian genetics fit this "Slavs expelled-Greeks from Anatolia&Italy came" story is that a great part of modern Peloponnesians don't descend from the Byzantine ones but are instead later internal migrants from other mainland parts like Central Greece, Thessaly & Epirus ,so no matter what was the situation back then and if these kind of movements had impact or not, it's irrelevant for the moderns.

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## blevins13

> Good. Then let's see the census figures broken out for each ethnicity for the periods before and after the exile of all the Slavs and the importation of all these Italians and Anatolian Greeks. 
> 
> I would also want some foundation evidence as to how many census takers there were to cover the country, the methods used etc. 
> 
> If you're going to claim a mass replacement of the entire Peloponnese you're going to have to do better than you've done so far.
> 
> You also haven't answered my question about the steppe percentages in modern people of the Peloponnese. It's more than would be in Sicilian Greeks or certainly than in Anatolian Greeks. Where did the excess come from if all the Slavs were expelled? If you can't satisfactorily answer that question then your hypothesis fails.
> 
> Also, what made you turn against Fallermayer? You were one of his biggest supporters. It was all Slavs and Albanians, not an actual Greek in sight.


Clearly you have no Idea what Fallermayer has stated. Can you please go read, start with your 

George Stamatoyannopoulos? 

What Fallermayer said and how George “dismantle” it. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718#ref-CR10

But guess what he is silent about Albanians and y-dna. 

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## blevins13

> Good grief! No, it doesn't mean that, but what good does it do anyone to know that they once existed if we don't have them and therefore we have no idea what they actually SHOWED. It means there is NO PROOF of what they contained, and therefore no proof of the statements put forth by Blevins that there was a population replacement in the Peloponnese.
> 
> People, let's have some logic and common sense, shall we? 
> 
> It's like Amber Heard constantly blathering about the mountains of evidence she has for her allegations, but the evidence was and is never produced, or if it's produced it's fragmentary, or the context is completely different from the one asserted, or the "evidence" is not an original document and so could have been altered. 
> 
> You wouldn't even win in traffic court with this kind of reasoning, much less put together a population genetics paper.


Come on Angela, guess who is in Heard’s position. Fallmerayer went to Greece 170 years ago, he wrote what he saw. Than you have more Slavic toponimo in Morea than in Serbia, than you have Y-DNA that was not present at Mycenaean Greek, than you have Byzantine sources that say replacement and transfers, on the other side you have George Stamatoyannopoulos that as provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that there is continuity of ancient Greeks in Morea, but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.

Now depends what is meant by this continuity, Fallmerayer, states that few pocket where Byzantine control was kept survived. 
Definitely there is continuity for the Indians of America and in this sense there is continuity for the Morea Greeks as well, at this level I have no disagreement. 

There was no reason for me to post anything here since there is no new studies for this matters but your negative poste towards a reasonable Greek fellow trigger it.

Ps: Do you still believe that Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians or you have changed your position?


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## matadworf

> It's very possible that the reason of why don't Peloponnesian genetics fit this "Slavs expelled-Greeks from Anatolia&Italy came" story is that a great part of modern Peloponnesians don't descend from the Byzantine ones but are instead later internal migrants from other mainland parts like Central Greece, Thessaly & Epirus ,so no matter what was the situation back then and if these kind of movements had impact or not, it's irrelevant for the moderns.


You're exactly right. I've traced my paternal side from Messinia back to Arcadia (as sheepherders) in the 17th c. and (possibly) from Epirus prior to that. So like I've mentioned before I believe there was a lot of inter-regional movement (could have been a lot North to South movement) over the years particularly prior to and during the Ottoman occupation when the Peloponnese was relatively sparse.

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## matadworf

> You're exactly right. I've traced my paternal side from Messinia back to Arcadia (as sheepherders) in the 17th c. and (possibly) from Epirus prior to that. So like I've mentioned before I believe there was a lot of inter-regional movement (could have been a lot North to South movement) over the years particularly prior to and during the Ottoman occupation when the Peloponnese was relatively sparse.


Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?

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## blevins13

> Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?


Majority of R1b is Z2705 in northern Greece or South Albanian and it is all expanded from one person in the last 1500 years. I believe the same situations may appear Morea as well. 
How is that for a continuity scenario. 


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## Angela

> Come on Angela, guess who is in Heard’s position. Fallmerayer went to Greece 170 years ago, he wrote what he saw. Than you have more Slavic toponimo in Morea than in Serbia, than you have Y-DNA that was not present at Mycenaean Greek, than you have Byzantine sources that say replacement and transfers, on the other side you have George Stamatoyannopoulos that as provided proof beyond reasonable doubt that there is continuity of ancient Greeks in Morea, but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.
> 
> Now depends what is meant by this continuity, Fallmerayer, states that few pocket where Byzantine control was kept survived. 
> Definitely there is continuity for the Indians of America and in this sense there is continuity for the Morea Greeks as well, at this level I have no disagreement. 
> 
> There was no reason for me to post anything here since there is no new studies for this matters but your negative poste towards a reasonable Greek fellow trigger it.
> 
> Ps: Do you still believe that Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians or you have changed your position?
> 
> ...



As always, you claim you have evidence but can never provide it, not even precise percentages for precise yDna lines in precise areas. 

As far as Illyrians are concerned, autosomally, Northern Italians come out pretty close to ancient Illyrian samples. Doesn't mean Northern Italians are descended from them, of course. It's probably just that the same or similar groups of people went both to Northern Italy and the eastern Adriatic coast. If you knew anything about population genetics you would understand that. As to how close modern Albanians are to those ancient Illyrian samples, I know some people posted samples, but I don't remember the results and don't care. Why would I? 

Why don't you run the calculators on your own data and let us know if you're closer than Northern Italians or not since it bothers you so much.

I just needed to get you to reveal, in your own words, what this is all about; as always, there are no Greeks, only Albanians. It worked. 

Now you go on ignore. You're just a t-roll.

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## Angela

> Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?


It could certainly be both, imo.

The only way to really know these things to a reasonable degree of certainty would be to have samples from the various periods of history and compare them.

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## Yetos

> Clearly you have no Idea what Fallermayer has stated. Can you please go read, start with your 
> 
> George Stamatoyannopoulos? 
> 
> What Fallermayer said and how George “dismantle” it. 
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201718#ref-CR10
> 
> But guess what he is silent about Albanians and y-dna. 
> ...




I am reading you, again and again here,
and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.

My Anser.

*1.* All Albanians claim Autochthonus, so were they here when S Greeks colonise inhabit, and almost Hellinise Epirus Nova and Central (core) Albania,
you called it Durress, but it was Roman Dyrrachion (again greek word) and it was Epidamnos, a colony of Corinthians? you called Pogianni but it was Apollonia?
So plz ASK YOUR SHELF HOW MUCH ANCIENT GREEK INFLUENCE IS IN ''Autochthonus'' Albanians, BEFORE THEY MOVE SOUTH TO MOREA.

2. You call Stamatoyiannopoulos, and other, WHY YOU DO NOT Also call the Balkanic (around Cetina) origin of Selloi- Hellenes.
we all know here, that Greeks are primary a unification of Minoans Myceneans non Hellenic, and Dorians (Hellenic) populations.

3. explain plz what are you after, what you want to prove,
we do not offcourse discuss abour female continuity whixh is very strong,
but about male, so:
3a. Do you believe there is no continuity in male polpulation is Greece? 
3b. Do you believe is very small continuity in male population from antique to today in Greece?
3c, How much you estimate is male continuity in Greece from antique, to Roman era to Today?

4, we both know that ALBANIA WAS ALSO IN PARTS HEAVILY INHABITED BY SLAVS, even today, pop like Goranjie, Torbesh, are just Muslim Slavs, era of Dusan, Neem... how ever is written,
The possibility of a shift towards Slavic be from Albanian migrations to Peloponese, HAS IT PASS FROM YOUR MIND?

5. There was a strong town, and generally a move of population to Albania at Roman era, 
I am reffering to Germidava after Dacian wars, etc etc, how much this change the population of Albania, comparing the Slavic admixture in Peloponese? (Notice, not North Greece, Peloponese)?

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## 1337_

Those samples in Northern Illyria were closest to Northern Italians autosomally for sure and I am not surprised since it is also close to Northern Italy

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## Constantine

> Is it possible that the higher Steppe in modern Peloponnesians vs. early Byzantine era populations has more to do with internal migration from Northern Greece vs. extensive Slav admixture. Could it be both?


I'm Laconian. I've heard old stories of Greeks coming down from farther north during Ottoman times because that region was either never under Ottoman rule or loosely controlled, depending on the specific area. On a side note: the old people in my town used to all say the famous Sfakiotes of Crete were originally from the Peloponnese. They were warlike, and a sizable portion of the them had to leave long ago due to the insane blood feuds. Sounds far fetched, but you gotta wonder why would anybody just make this up.

Anyway, given the recent Danubian Frontier paper, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the parallel. History repeats itself. More people were milling about from other parts of the Empire. The the Empire faded, and so did the immigrants. And the natives came down from the mountains (of which there are many) and reasserted themselves. A viable option, I think.

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## eupator

> I am reading you, again and again here,
> and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.


Stop being so unnecessarily aggressive, man.

And you claim you are "Makedonian original" but with your own admission you have Pontic roots, so that's the originality part out of the window.

Pontics are not Macedonian, we never were and never will be, we have our own culture and tradition that is Ionic in its Greek part, not Doric/Macedonian, so stop being so cringe-worthily over the top.

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## matadworf

Here’s the second part to Razib K’s piece in Greece. Pretty much says everything that’s been discussed on this site and others for the past 5 years. My only question is why he uses WHG, CHG and EEF (does CHG represent something else?) when comparing ancients to moderns.
https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-..._source=direct

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## matadworf

Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.

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## blevins13

> I am reading you, again and again here,
> and Trully, I CN NOT REALIZE WHAT ARE YOU AFTER.
> 
> My Anser.
> 
> *1.* All Albanians claim Autochthonus, so were they here when S Greeks colonise inhabit, and almost Hellinise Epirus Nova and Central (core) Albania,
> you called it Durress, but it was Roman Dyrrachion (again greek word) and it was Epidamnos, a colony of Corinthians? you called Pogianni but it was Apollonia?
> So plz ASK YOUR SHELF HOW MUCH ANCIENT GREEK INFLUENCE IS IN ''Autochthonus'' Albanians, BEFORE THEY MOVE SOUTH TO MOREA.
> 
> ...


Very strong post, a way to go after so long in this forum, but I think off topic. Albanian are discussed elsewhere. This Selloi-Cetinja connection is the cherry  at the top. Put it PCA and see what you get.

PS: my reason for posting is that I am allergic to BS. 

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## eupator

> Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.



European HG probably contains all variations, not just WHG.

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## ihype02

Ancient Greece, especially from LBA to Roman period is very understudied genetically. Iberia, Italy, UK and other regions as well, all have numerous samples compared to sole 4 Late Bronze Age samples.
Given the interest from the public it should've been first in line.
Even the upcomming study has like 10 samples. Autosomally I think they are pretty represantive but I am more interested in the Y-Dna.
The Southern Arc paper seem to lack IA Greek samples too.

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## mount123

> Carrying what yDna do you suspect? 
> 
> If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?
> 
> What other steppe yDna might they have carried? One cannot, of course, count the yDna of the Slavs who came so much later, so what is left do you speculate?


The rumours about Mycenaean samples from Pylos are about R1b-PF7562 not R1b-Z2103. R1b-PF7562 as a lineage in modern Greeks is insignificant. I do however expect R1b-Z2103 to perhaps also show up.

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## Francesco

> Oh wait is he combining WHG and CHG to make Steppe. Because when I look at the graph there’s a sizable chunk of WHG shown in moderns but when we see these ancestral breakdowns on novice calcs it shows a negligible amount of WHG.


The Graphs are from the following study by Clemente et al. (2021). They combine WHG and EHG under the same label "European Hunter Gatherer". And they combine European Hunter Gatherer, as you noticed, to detect the steppe ancestry.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706

----------


## eupator

> If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?



It's very small percentage, there's only 15 of us in the Greek FTDNA project (with confirmed Greek paternal ancestry).

Z2103 in modern Greeks is either Arvanitic-related Z2109 or the "eastern" (Armenian/Iranic?) L584.

----------


## blevins13

> As always, you claim you have evidence but can never provide it, not even precise percentages for precise yDna lines in precise areas. 
> 
> As far as Illyrians are concerned, autosomally, Northern Italians come out pretty close to ancient Illyrian samples. Doesn't mean Northern Italians are descended from them, of course. It's probably just that the same or similar groups of people went both to Northern Italy and the eastern Adriatic coast. If you knew anything about population genetics you would understand that. As to how close modern Albanians are to those ancient Illyrian samples, I know some people posted samples, but I don't remember the results and don't care. Why would I? 
> 
> Why don't you run the calculators on your own data and let us know if you're closer than Northern Italians or not since it bothers you so much.
> 
> I just needed to get you to reveal, in your own words, what this is all about; as always, there are no Greeks, only Albanians. It worked. 
> 
> Now you go on ignore. You're just a t-roll.


You started with silly, continued with Heard lack of evidence, concluded with t-roll. 

You have been a lawyer correct:


Evidence can take the form of testimony, documents, photographs, videos, voice recordings, DNA testing, or other tangible objects.

So I provided the ocular testimoni of Fallmerayer (he has seen Greece himself), I provided Byzantine references for transfer and movements, i indicated that DNA analysis of George Stamatoyannopoulos might included other transfer populations not counted for, not to mention other deficiencies of his study that have been discussed before. I indicated that Slavic toponyms in Morea are more that in Serbia. I indicated that the majority of Male lines in the modern populations have not been found in Mycenaean Greeks.

You on the other side offered only Stamatoyannopoulos as the expert of the field. Heard approach you said, I say more like Heard’s lawyer.





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----------


## Yetos

> Stop being so unnecessarily aggressive, man.
> 
> And you claim you are "Makedonian original" but with your own admission you have Pontic roots, so that's the originality part out of the window.
> 
> Pontics are not Macedonian, we never were and never will be, we have our own culture and tradition that is Ionic in its Greek part, not Doric/Macedonian, so stop being so cringe-worthily over the top.


I do not know where you extract this, 
But trully off you are, Pieria mts, are and never inhabited by Pontic people, and neither by Slavs, the only village has Slavic toponym is at West side, and I am small connected with this is at Kozane preferacture,

My block of villages has nothing to do with other villages, and neither with valley Rumluki Makedonians, 
neither the Epirotes and Souliotes that came to Pieria mtns. neither the Vlachs of Olympos. 

So plz cut the crap, Yes Igrew up in mahala full of Pontic Greeks, and as a kid, my father send me to learn culture and dances of minor Asians, Manissa Zeimbeks.
Yes I learn Zeimbekiko before learn Zourna. But not as you say.

----------


## ihype02

> The rumours about Mycenaean samples from Pylos are about R1b-PF7562 not R1b-Z2103. R1b-PF7562 as a lineage in modern Greeks is insignificant. I do however expect R1b-Z2103 to perhaps also show up.


There is one R1b in Ancient Greek samples that Davidski spoke about and it's not Z2103 but I don't know if it is the same one though. 
This was revealed years ago. Do those papers take a decade till they are published?

----------


## matadworf

The one thing Khan mentioned in his article about a second wave of migration during the early Bronze Age interests me and I guess that’s where the CHG is coming from but my question is; did that migration have two routes; sea and land? You see the CHG admixture in both the Northern Helladic samples as well as Minoan and Mycenean in fairly equal amounts. My other question is how is possible that the CHG admixture is higher in moderns than ancients? Was there possible additional Anatolian admixture during the Classical, Hellenistic or Byzantine periods and to such a degree that it would increase the CHG or am I misreading this?

----------


## eupator

> I do not know where you extract this, 
> 
> My block of villages has nothing to do with other villages, and neither with valley Rumluki Makedonians, 
> neither the Epirotes and Souliotes that came to Pieria mtns. neither the Vlachs of Olympos. 
> 
> So plz cut the crap,.


I misunderstood you about the Pontic roots.

As far as your village is concerned, talk is cheap, what is the name of village?

I know your type, if anyone was to believe your stories, you all are Alexander the Great's lost cousins.

----------


## eupator

> My other question is how is possible that the CHG admixture is higher in moderns than ancients? Was there possible additional Anatolian admixture during the Classical, Hellenistic or Byzantine periods and to such a degree that it would increase the CHG or am I misreading this?


We told you but you don't want to hear it.

----------


## ihype02

> We told you but you don't want to hear it.


Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese. So in let's say, 15th century it's possible that they were more similar to Dodecanese Islanders than to Cretans.

----------


## eupator

> Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese.


I don't know about this, IBD connection, I am not disputing it necessarily but I would like to see the evidence for it.

The rest is all part of Byzantine medieval history for those who want to read. Byzantine literature is good because it hasn't got an anxiety to prove ancient Greek continuity like modern forum boards and discord servers. For them ancient Greeks = pagans to be exterminated if not converted, and they did so very effectivelly with leadership like Theodosius I and II and generals like Nicephoros Phokas.

----------


## matadworf

No I just want to understand where it’s coming from; specific migrations/historical period, etc. vs. speculation and/or hearsay. I understand the Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that makes perfect sense. I’m not super clear about the origins of that additional admixture; did it occur during the Hellenistic, Byzantine, or later migrations. Anyway I guess later samples can help clear the picture.

----------


## eupator

> No I just want to understand where it’s coming from; specific migrations/historical period, etc. vs. speculation and/or hearsay. I understand the Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that makes perfect sense. I’m not super clear about the origins of that additional admixture; did it occur during the Hellenistic, Byzantine, or later migrations. Anyway I guess later samples can help clear the picture.


It doesn't have to be either/or.

It can be a culmination of all those periods adding new layers of admixture each time. The timing only bothers those who want to disassociate Greece from its Western Asian links (not you, personally). But Byzantium after the Bulgarian Empire's expansion is almost in its entirety based in Anatolia (+Thrace). The people who repopulated the peninsular parts after the victory of Basil II and the Macedonian Dynasty come from Anatolia (plus Armenia). These resettlements of Armenians, Anatolians, Isaurians, etc, added layers to the pre-existing population groupings in the region and so forth ...

The mileage may vary based on how successful these repopulations were. 

Then you have the Ottomans who also moved people around in the same fashion, don't forget that jurisdictional system of the Ottomans is almost a direct continuation of the Byzantine's thematic system, common practices, etc.

----------


## Angela

> Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese. So in let's say, 15th century it's possible that they were more similar to Dodecanese Islanders than to Cretans.


Could you please provide a link to the source for that information? 

The question is not whether the Deep Maniotes share high IBD with West Taygetos; it's what was the direction of the gene flow, and which were the alleles involved.

----------


## Angela

The question is not whether there was some additional gene flow from Anatolia to Greece during the Roman Era and/or the Byzantine period. I would assume there was. There certainly was to Italy.

The question is whether it amounted to population replacement.

As an outsider all I see from some posters is an attempt to prove replacement, which they cannot prove, btw, and which probably stems from jealousy.

----------


## Yetos

Here I must add 2 women of high nobility that lived there,

Anna of Savoy,
Helena Dragac (that is Constantine Dragaces Palaiologos)

----------


## eupator

> As an outsider all I see from some posters is an attempt to prove replacement, which they cannot prove, btw, and which probably stems from jealousy.



Yes, us Ottoman Greeks, we are very jealous of the pirate clans of Morea and their tiny bankrupt kingdom with the foreign king that managed in 100 years to be the catalyst that eradicated and uprooted the entirety of Hellenism in Anatolia, Caucasus and the Levant/Egypt, so they can feed their petty little feuds and greed. The perfect puppets for their imperialist puppeteers.

----------


## eupator

> Here I must add 2 women of high nobility that lived there,


Lived where?

----------


## ihype02

> Could you please provide a link to the source for that information?


I read it on Anthrogenica from 2 (trusted) Greeks who have worked on their coordinates I am not sure how they are able to figure it out. They said Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Taygetos and other Maniotes and not with Cretans as some assumed.

Maniotes became isolated during the Ottoman Empire, so there was quite some mixing going on there. A Deep Maniote viewed a Maniot from Taygetos as his own group and not the the same as an Arcadian for example.

It is generally believed that pre-migration period Roman Greeks were very similar to Dodecanese Islanders, only a little less Anatolian and more Mycenaean. But this is only an opinion not something I know as a fact.

----------


## Yetos

> Yes, us Ottoman Greeks, we are very jealous of the pirate clans of Morea and their tiny bankrupt kingdom with the foreign king that managed in 100 years to be the catalyst that eradicated and uprooted the entirety of Hellenism in Anatolia, Caucasus and the Levant/Egypt, so they can feed their petty little feuds and greed. The perfect puppets for their imperialist puppeteers.



*There is no such thing like Ottoman Greeks*, Rayah maybe, only in your mind could exist such.

----------


## eupator

> *There is no such thing like Ottoman Greeks*, Rayah maybe, only in your mind could exist such.



Why don't you post the name of the village so I can see what a "Makedonian original" looks like. Is it because you are afraid I will know the truth about it and you try to avoid the question with cringey posts?

----------


## blevins13

> *There is no such thing like Ottoman Greeks*, Rayah maybe, only in your mind could exist such.


See, do not doubt me anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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## matadworf

> We told you but you don't want to hear it.


Ok but that CHG percentage is that the average for all Greeks including Anatolia and the Caucasus? I asked Khan that question. Cyprus and Crete were separated out. I honestly have no vested interest other than wanting to understand genetics and history. I mean i get the EEF (which is well researched and pretty clear), even the Steppe which arrived from the Balkans incrementally. The CHG part I don't quite get. It's just not making sense to me historically at this point. I need more clear cut evidence. Anyway I enjoy your lively commentary!

----------


## eupator

> Ok but that CHG percentage is that the average for all Greeks including Anatolia and the Caucasus? I asked Khan that question. Cyprus and Crete were separated out. I honestly have no vested interest other than wanting to understand genetics and history. I mean i get the EEF (which is well researched and pretty clear), even the Steppe which arrived from the Balkans incrementally. The CHG part I don't quite get. It's just not making sense to me historically at this point. I need more clear cut evidence. Anyway I enjoy your lively commentary!


Yeah, good question, now you are getting to the essence of things.

Another question is why Lazaridis' samples (Greek_Thessaloniki) for 2017 seem to also be mixed cases of Anatolians and locals. Was it because their mix was the right amount of either side to place them right next to Myceneans, next to Cretans? Was that a conscious choice for his peninsular option? Why didn't he separate them like Stamatoyanopoulos if that's what everyone else was doing; or pick another place for sampling, why Thessaloniki, literally the hub for the highest presence of West Asian genes in the country.

Is the clustering next to Myceneans a historical freebie of Anatolians "southernizing" the peninsular locals to such an extent (Cretans already a similar mix)?

----------


## Angela

> Yes, us Ottoman Greeks, we are very jealous of the pirate clans of Morea and their tiny bankrupt kingdom with the foreign king that managed in 100 years to be the catalyst that eradicated and uprooted the entirety of Hellenism in Anatolia, Caucasus and the Levant/Egypt, so they can feed their petty little feuds and greed. The perfect puppets for their imperialist puppeteers.


Yes, well, that's what happens when you're ruled by one of the most corrupt, inefficient empires the world has ever seen. Once the Ottoman yoke was upon them, it was all over, and that goes for the whole Balkans.

Hell, it goes for the Near East as well. 

Centers of civilization entered a hundreds years long Dark Ages from which some of them have not yet recovered. 

Who do you think you'll convince that being part of the Ottoman Empire was good for the Balkans and Greece. Please.

----------


## eupator

> Who do you think you'll convince that being part of the Ottoman Empire was good for the Balkans and Greece. Please.


I don't want to convince anyone, I am sad at the turn of affairs and I am voicing my personal opinion, since I am Greek living in Greece, I think my historical and current plight has earned me as much.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

I didn't use Anatolia_BA as a proxy because ancient Greeks had around 30-40% Anatolia_BA like ancestry so it overlaps a lot. Later Anatolian/Caucasus admixture came much later anyway so Anatolia_BA is not relevant. I don't know how much Greek ancestry Greek_Anatolian has so i didn't use it as a proxy either.

----------


## matadworf

> I didn't use Anatolia_BA as a proxy because ancient Greeks had around 30-40% Anatolia_BA like ancestry so it overlaps a lot. Later Anatolian/Caucasus admixture came much later anyway so Anatolia_BA is not relevant. I don't know how much Greek ancestry Greek_Anatolian has so i didn't use it as a proxy either.


For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.

----------


## Carnimirie

Why has this thread turned into a 10 page speculative drama? The first two pages were pretty concise in the aims and results

----------


## Yetos

> Why don't you post the name of the village so I can see what a "Makedonian original" looks like. Is it because you are afraid I will know the truth about it and you try to avoid the question with cringey posts?


Maybe you want my name also?

Ematheia and Pieria are not so many villages,

----------


## matadworf

> Why has this thread turned into a 10 page speculative drama? The first two pages were pretty concise in the aims and results


Great question. It sort of got derailed as do most threads (and I'm a Greek) that involve Greeks or Albanians.

----------


## Yetos

Sad but True,

Myenean world




Mycenean expand + also Cyprus




BUT Proto Greek or ProtoHellenic




ALSO 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa


Arzawa is also called Arcadia of Asia minor.

----------


## bigsnake49

> It's been very hard for me to find good sources for Greek ydna. Could you provide me with a link to the papers you're using?
> 
> Is that just R1b Z2103 or all R1b?
> 
> Clearly, if we're trying to estimate the amount of steppe ancestry which arrived in Greece during the relevant centuries, we're not interested in very downstream clades.


Try this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin. He provides some sources in the third post of the thread.

I have not delved into what all the subclades of R1b in Greece are by reading the relevant papers.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Good grief! No, it doesn't mean that, but what good does it do anyone to know that they once existed if we don't have them and therefore we have no idea what they actually SHOWED. It means there is NO PROOF of what they contained, and therefore no proof of the statements put forth by Blevins that there was a population replacement in the Peloponnese.
> 
> People, let's have some logic and common sense, shall we? 
> 
> It's like Amber Heard constantly blathering about the mountains of evidence she has for her allegations, but the evidence was and is never produced, or if it's produced it's fragmentary, or the context is completely different from the one asserted, or the "evidence" is not an original document and so could have been altered. 
> 
> You wouldn't even win in traffic court with this kind of reasoning, much less put together a population genetics paper.


I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.

No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.

----------


## Angela

> I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.
> 
> No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.


No doubt it's very interesting that all these empires kept tax information. Unfortunately, the papers relevant to our discussion no longer exist.

So, to summarize, there is no proof for the claims made.


What should interest anyone involved in discussions like this is whether facts claimed to be true are, in fact, verifiable. If they're just speculation, then the "hypothesis" should be stated as a hypothesis which might or might not be true, not as a fact upon which people can rely in coming to conclusions.

We're all supposed to be engaged in a search for the truth of the past, yes, to the extent it can ever be known. To do that we need to be careful not to turn speculations into conclusions without the proper evidence.

----------


## Constantine

The extra CHG, I'd predict, came from 1) something (Thracian or Thracian-like?) that came down from the eastern Balkans and set the ball rolling in regards to the differentiation between mainlanders and islanders; 2) further interactions later on during Classical times when western Anatolia was basically just a part of Greece.

----------


## Yetos

> I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.
> 
> No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.


in fact my family found most before 1900 data from church written baptism of young.

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence. 
And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.

----------


## mount123

> I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence. 
> And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
> It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.


Perhaps address individuals and not "ethnicities"? These are very generalizing statements and don't differ much from other sentiments I have come across on this thread.

With 100% or almost 100% Balkanites you are whom exactly addressing?

----------


## Andrewid

> I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence. 
> It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.




Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

And as Lazardes et al say on p6 of their origins of the Mycenaeans/Minoans study:

We estimated FSTof Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that
Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and
Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble
present-day inhabitants from the same region

----------


## Andrewid

The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.

----------


## blevins13

> Sad but True,
> 
> Myenean world
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mycenean expand + also Cyprus
> 
> ...


I always wondered where the proto - Greeks were driving their chariots in the mountains of Epirus. 

https://youtu.be/kNTp4kELkSY

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## kingjohn

> The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.


The future* southern Arc paper*
Will include: _ancient dna from cyprus_ 
I think as a cypriot you will find it interesting
Maybe we will be able to see the autosomal changes in this island from neolithic to iron age
That would be great

----------


## eupator

> Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.



It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.

So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when historical truth knocks on the door.

So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm these historical truths.

And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...

----------


## matadworf

Where can those new sample coordinates be found?

----------


## matadworf

> The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.


Where can the new Cypriot samples be found?
Were they added to the G 25 database?

----------


## eupator

And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself



```
fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 2 × 4
  pop1                pop2      est      se
                       
1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325
2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136
```



```
fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
597k SNPs read...
✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 2 × 4
  pop1              pop2      est       se
                      
1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 
2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141  0.000197
```


As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.

----------


## matadworf

> And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
> ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
> ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
> ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
> ...


I totally agree with your point about modern admixture and genetic distance to the ancients. It’s just a fun comparison thing that folks take way too seriously. I mean I’m super close to that Logkas 2 sample just because of the component similarity. There’s certainly nothing alluring about a middle Bronze Age Helladic sample:)

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.
> 
> And as Lazardes et al say on p6 of their origins of the Mycenaeans/Minoans study:
> 
> We estimated FSTof Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that
> Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and
> Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble
> present-day inhabitants from the same region


And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from *Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy*; I'll try to make it simple for you:

1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.




> These are very generalizing statements and don't differ much from other sentiments I have come across on this thread.
> 
> With 100% or almost 100% Balkanites you are whom exactly addressing?


The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies _when_ they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance. 
With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").





> It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.
> 
> So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when *historical truth* knocks on the door.
> 
> So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm *these historical truths*.
> 
> And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...


Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

----------


## eupator

> Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.


I refer to Byzantine historiographers and chroniclers, such as Chalcocondyles, Anna Komnenian, and more recents like Meletios. Their writings even have dedicated wiki pages these days, they are very easy to find.

If you have criticisms about the Byzantine historiographers, I am more than happy to indulge as I am always willing to learn.

Other than that, your post is too egotistical to address, I have a Ph.D. in ethnography, I win the 'appeal to authority' contest.

----------


## bigsnake49

> And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
> ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
> ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
> ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
> ...


All of the Greeks of Thrace? Eastern, Western and Northern Thrace? This is just from memory while I am drinking my coffee, but 300,000 Greeks from all those areas found their way to Greece from 1878-1923.

----------


## matadworf

> And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from *Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy*; I'll try to make it simple for you:
> 
> 1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
> 2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
> 3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
> 4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree that there has not been any significant population turnover in Greece since the Classical era. We don’t really know what happened during the dark ages there could have been an influx from the North and another from the Western or Eastern Med. We do know that the most substantive genetic input came from Southern Slavs who most likely raised the Steppe levels in Continental Greece (not the more isolated regions of the Peloponnese) I honestly don’t believe there was much additional gene flow into continental Greece or mass migrations from coastal Anatolia during earlier periods. Were their settlers from the East possibly but certainly nothing on a large scale.History says it was usually the other way around; Greeks leaving the mainland for a better life. So yes at this point I’m going with what the paleogenetecists are saying about Greece; Deep Mani and Tsakonia have the least amount of Slav admixture and are closest to Crete. The rest of the Peloponnese, particularly Messinia including Western Mani, Elis, Argolis, and Arcadia are much closer to Thessaly and Macedonia due to increased Steppe or whatever you want to call it.

----------


## mount123

> The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies _when_ they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance. 
> With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").


Well, thanks for clarifying. I get your point but generally still think it is rather appropriate to address individually and not in regards to ethnicity. 

I don't want to dwell too much into this discussion out of respect for matadworf but as long as people address for instance something like the population exchange between Turkey and Greece and how that has had its impact in certain groups I don't think that they are propagating when doing that. Or that population modelling does not always portray actual ancestry and other nuances. I don't want to comment on other standpoints posted here.

----------


## eupator

> All of the Greeks of Thrace? Eastern, Western and Northern Thrace? This is just from memory while I am drinking my coffee, but 300,000 Greeks from all those areas found their way to Greece from 1878-1923.


Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.

I am not sure if I understood the question correctly, but up until the point where the Young Turk movement started to take over in the 1910s+, the Thracian Ottoman Greeks were the most affluent artisan, bureaucratic and merchant group/class next to the capital (not discounting Pontus and Asia Minor coastline).

Also, please check your PMs.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.
> 
> I am not sure if I understood the question correctly, but up until the point where the Young Turk movement started to take over in the 1910s+, the Thracian Ottoman Greeks were the most affluent artisan, bureaucratic and merchant group/class next to the capital (not discounting Pontus and Asia Minor coastline).
> 
> Also, please check your PMs.


While the Greeks of Eastern Thrace and Northern Thrace that lived in the cities were all that, the farmers that lived in the villages were not. While the elite might have migrated from other areas of the empire to the area's cities, the farmers were probably hellenized locals, Thracians of old mixed in with some of the newer migrants.

----------


## Angela

> And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from *Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy*; I'll try to make it simple for you:
> 
> 1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
> 2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
> 3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
> 4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent post. If I could give you ten upvotes I would.

I would add that when asked for actual evidence of those wild speculations one is met by a deafening silence.

----------


## blevins13

> And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from *Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy*; I'll try to make it simple for you:
> 
> 1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
> 2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
> 3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
> 4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see logic in your post, but it seem that you do not know the history of the Balkans. From the outsider view point as yourself I would probably say the same. 

But you miss the following, malelines of the populations in the Balkans suffer tremendous bottle-necks between VI and VII century. For example the males lines of the Albanians come probability from 100 max men that have expanded in the last 1500 years as far as Morea after the Eastern Roman collapse. Same can be said for the Vllah male-lines and Greek male lines. But in case of Morea Greeks now the majority are not the male-lines of the Mycenaean Greeks or probably even classic Greeks. I am not saying that there is no continuity, but facts are facts, majority of the males lines has changed. 




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## eupator

> Excellent post. If I could give you ten upvotes I would.
> 
> I would add that when asked for actual evidence of those wild speculations one is met by a deafening silence.



What is that actual evidence that you need? A copy+paste of the actual passages from Chalcocondyles' work?

What evidence is there to contradict those historical passages, you haven't refuted anything so far. You just said Herodotus was wrong about Etruscans and called it a day, what does this argument have to do with Medieval and Ottoman Greece?

Lazaridis' Greek_Thessaloniki samples in the 2017 paper are part West Asian or half West Asian, you can open the Reich dataset .ind and .anno files and see for yourself if you don't believe me. I am sure I also saw those samples circulating on a K12b list somewhere. The other Greek samples on the Lazaridis paper are from Crete and Cyprus, there's no Peloponnesians in there unfortunately.

What else is there to prove?

----------


## Er Monnezza

My ancestor :)

----------


## Kuivamaa

> …but he does not mention Albanians movements nor he tries to distinguish them.


I have the impression (judging by what 23andme etc are doing) that it is difficult in general to distinguish mainland Greek from south Albanian autosomal dna. Which makes sense since the base “materials” were similar for both populations, they coexisted and migrated/colonized each other’s areas and later in history both received influx of similar populations (eg slavs). 

This reminds me of the whole controversy a few years back about what dna footprint did the Danish Vikings leave in “danelaw” areas of England. Papers have found little but many have pointed out the obvious issue here, that Saxons, and particularly Angles and Jutes which were one of the building blocks of pre-Norman England were quite possibly nearly identical to Viking Danes.

----------


## matadworf

> I see logic in your post, but it seem that you do not know the history of the Balkans. From the outsider view point as yourself I would probably say the same. 
> But you miss the following, malelines of the populations in the Balkans suffer tremendous bottle-necks between VI and VII century. For example the males lines of the Albanians come probability from 100 max men that have expanded in the last 1500 years as far as Morea after the Eastern Roman collapse. Same can be said for the Vllah male-lines and Greek male lines. But in case of Morea Greeks now the majority are not the male-lines of the Mycenaean Greeks or probably even classic Greeks. I am not saying that there is no continuity, but facts are facts, majority of the males lines has changed. 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


This is off topic but my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite from Aetos, Messinia. My maternal uncle (only male offspring) died young and he had one son who lives in Virginia. I was just about to purchase him a dna kit to check his haplogroup and he’s disappeared on me. I’m truly bummed because I wanted to check my maternal line. I was able to trace the family back to a village near Magalopolis called Merze (another obvious Arvanite village). I have quite a few dna matches in Korce.

----------


## eupator

On the Slavs and Romans of Morea (pp 233):

De Administrando Imperio [On Administering the Empire] : Constantine Porphyrogenitus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Chalcocondyles' accord of Vlachs from Bogdania colonizing en mass the regions of Epirus, Thessaly all the way to Peloponnesos.



Unfortunately, I don't have a translated copy of the above but you can trust my word for it or find a Greek speaker to confirm.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.


Here you mean the Greeks of the Classical period? It's not that much evidence is needed, just compare modern Greeks with Mycenaeans. The modern Greeks (mainland and islands together), compared to the Mycenaeans or the Emporiotes, have the same amount or more of CHG, Iran_N, and Levant_PPNB while having definitely more Steppes.

It means that indeed there was an influence coming from the east and south, maybe in the Classical period or maybe in the Hellenistic period, we don't know. The problem is that we still know very little about what ethnic structure existed in Greece in the Iron Age, and 4 Mycenaeans (of which 2 should be discarded because they are of the lowest quality) and 2 settlers from another country are just not enough.

----------


## eupator

Arvanite speakers of modern Southern Greece, today: 





Someone needs to inform these people that they need to provide proof they are not really ancient Greeks in disguise.

----------


## eupator

> My ancestor :)



Ι see you, brother, and I raise you:




My ancestors were Imperial Romans from Lazio and South Italy, not Arvanitevlachs and Pontics like I've been told.

----------


## eupator

> I have quite a few dna matches in Korce.



If you have a lot of dna matches in Korce you might want to read about the Remenoi Vlachs or the Arvanitovlachs: 

Οι Αρβανιτόβλαχοι (Ρεμένοι Βλάχοι) (protothema.gr)

Use the google translate function from Greek to English for the page, it's a good translation.

This is also the source population of my own family as well.

----------


## matadworf

> If you have a lot of dna matches in Korce you might want to read about the Remenoi Vlachs or the Arvanitovlachs: 
> 
> Οι Αρβανιτόβλαχοι (Ρεμένοι Βλάχοι) (protothema.gr)
> 
> Use the google translate function from Greek to English for the page, it's a good translation.
> 
> This is also the source population of my own family as well.


Thanks enjoyed the article.

----------


## iluvatar

> Well, thanks for clarifying. I get your point but generally still think it is rather appropriate to address individually and not in regards to ethnicity. 
> 
> I don't want to dwell too much into this discussion out of respect for matadworf but as long as people address for instance something like the population exchange between Turkey and Greece and how that has had its impact in certain groups I don't think that they are propagating when doing that. Or that population modelling does not always portray actual ancestry and other nuances. I don't want to comment on other standpoints posted here.


I don’t get this particular argument. Why would the resettlement of Greeks from Anatolia to another place in Greece need to be addressed. They don’t differ genetically from other Greeks. Most of them plot between the islands and the mainland and were probably recent migrants to western Anatolia (check the rapid growth of the population of Smyrna for example).




Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 0.6495% / 0.00649527

62.4
Greek_Peloponnese



33.2
Greek_Kos



4.4
Greek_Macedonia






Populations used:
Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506
Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
Greek_Trabzon,0.1088149,0.1395337,-0.0541922,-0.0612731,-0.0251739,-0.0177374,0.0072852,-0.0047076,-0.03798,-0.003517,0.0029556,0.0060996,-0.0143902,0.0076518,-0.0083876,-0.0124236,0.0065843,-0.0011655,-0.0010433,0.0023638,0.0040679,0.0013974,-0.0024403,-0.0025666,-0.0013412
Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986


Most of the Greeks that were exchanged were from western Anatolia and Thrace. I cant post links and pictures but there is a map showing were the bulk of them were situated in 1914 in the Wikipedia article about the exchange. 

The ones from Thrace were probably a bit closer to northern Greeks overall.

Pontic Greeks do differ but so what? Their profile is likely for the most part ancient anyway. But since I know that won’t convince the usual Balkan nationalists and since Eupator is so insistent on painting them as a foreign element, let me point out that they only really constituted about 18% of the population that was exchanged (this includes the ones from the Caucasus). Again i cant post links but you can check the official census for that.

----------


## eupator

Also, concerning linguistic affinities especially in the late Ottoman period.

This ethnographic map by Cvijic shows the linguistic (the term ethnic is used rather) for the late Ottoman period in the region.

My father's village as you can see below is painted as brown=Greek.




But if you read Meletios' Geography and History you get the following ethnographic detail:





The village is referred to be made by Arvanites ("Arvanitovillage").


So you can see the depths you have to go into to secure the ethnographic details and nuisances of each place inside the Byzantine and Ottoman periods where so many ethnic groups lived next to each other, where so many languages were spoken simultaneously.

How can anyone with a straight face say there is this ultimately unbroken continuity to 2000 B.C. in the region?

As for Crete, and their supposed unbroken continuity to Minoan and Mycenean times, I copy+paste an older relevant post of mine:




> The main historical sources for the Cretan reconquista are Byzantine chroniclers/historiographers Theodosios and Leon Diakonos and the work titled as "De Creta capta"/"Expugnatio Cretae" written in 962/963.
> 
> Some excerpts (with my translation):
> 
> a) Cretan Pagans and Saracens are used interchangeably throughout the work, often under the umbrella "barbarians", "the liars ... the beasts of the wicked ...", the reconquista being the "the work of the people of Christ ..."
> 
> b) "the fall of the Handakan (Heracleion) castle followed by the mass killings of defenders, the elderly, the women and infants ..."
> 
> c) "τὴν νῆσον ἐξημερώσας ἅπασαν, Ἀρμενίων τε καὶ Ῥωμαίων καὶ συγκλύδων ἀνδρῶν φατρίας ἐνοικισάμενος", "the whole island domesticated fully, Armenians and Romans and the conjugates of the (army) clans settling (there) ..."
> ...

----------


## blevins13

> I have the impression (judging by what 23andme etc are doing) that it is difficult in general to distinguish mainland Greek from south Albanian autosomal dna. Which makes sense since the base “materials” were similar for both populations, they coexisted and migrated/colonized each other’s areas and later in history both received influx of similar populations (eg slavs). 
> 
> This reminds me of the whole controversy a few years back about what dna footprint did the Danish Vikings leave in “danelaw” areas of England. Papers have found little but many have pointed out the obvious issue here, that Saxons, and particularly Angles and Jutes which were one of the building blocks of pre-Norman England were quite possibly nearly identical to Viking Danes.


It is possible with Y-DNA. You can’t go wrong with that.


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## iluvatar

> For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.


 These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any. 

From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:

“We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. *However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus*, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”

Concerning the Byzantine relocations from the east Eupator cites, we already know they didn’t play much of a role because again as per the Marathon sample which is dated to 252-412 CE, a Dodecanesian like profile already existed in Greece. When taking such a profile as a starting point nothing from the east gets picked up for modern Greek samples. In fact something abit more western like the Maniots (they plot with or slightly west of Crete) works better for mainland groups than using Dodecanesians. 

Therefore, movements mentioned in vague historical sources are not solid proof of population replacement, ancient Dna is, at least when there is an adequate sample size to cover different eras and areas. We are quite a bit off from having an exhaustive sample size but we will eventually get there. Some of the theories proposed here might be proven, or not and some atleast (like byzantine era movements) already look unlikely.

The southern Arc paper is probably coming out in two days, if they have sufficient samples form the Archaic/classical/Roman era we might be able to get a general idea of what happened in Greece and the Balkans, why not chill out and wait for it to drop?

As a side note it is going to be fairly easy to tell when something is a coincidence or not. That Cretans are Saracens mixed with Varangians like Eupator sugested is quite an amusing idea, but it is very unlikely to be confirmed by ancient dna. The general picture for Crete will likely be that which was suggested in the Danubian Limes paper.

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## eupator

> Pontic Greeks do differ but so what? Their profile is likely for the most part ancient anyway. But since I know that won’t convince the usual Balkan nationalists and since Eupator is so insistent on painting them as a foreign element, let me point out that they only really constituted about 18% of the population that was exchanged (this includes the ones from the Caucasus). Again i cant post links but you can check the official census for that.


That's not exactly true, Pontics were around 350K registered with the Lausanne Treaty, imo much more in actual numbers, and another 150K from the Caucasus/former USSR in the early 1990s.

Given the population of Greece, and especially Thessaloniki (and Macedonia in general) in both the 1920s and the 1990s, that was more than enough to southernize the rest of the mix (Macedonia+Smyrni) and create a "Cretan-like" result that obviously plotted close enough to the Mycenean cluster.

----------


## iluvatar

The samples from the Lazaridis paper dont cluster with Cretans though (the ones from Thessaloniki). 

Some of the ones labeled “Greek Coriell” do and ofc the Cretans.

----------


## eupator

> That Cretans are Saracens mixed with Varangians like Eupator sugested is quite an amusing idea, but it is very unlikely to be confirmed by ancient dna.



"Very unlikely" but yet no rebuttal, we are all ears.

Disprove the 962 text I quoted.

----------


## eupator

> The samples from the Lazaridis paper dont cluster with Cretans though (the ones from Thessaloniki).



They are "close enough".

Are you running out of arguments and we have to play with words now?

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## iluvatar

> They are "close enough".
> 
> Are you running out of arguments and we have to play with words now?


They aren't they plot where you would expect them, with Albanians. Overall abit more northern than the rest of the mainland.

----------


## blevins13

> Arvanite speakers of modern Southern Greece, today: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone needs to inform these people that they need to provide proof they are not really ancient Greeks in disguise.


Is there any of the fighting leader of the Greek Revolution not Arvanites (Albanian - Christian)?




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## eupator

> They aren't they plot where you would expect them, with Albanians. Overall abit more northern than the rest of the mainland.



I don't have time to waste on pendantics.

The GREEKALPOP samples in the Reich HO dataset with reference to Thessaloniki in the .anno file (originally from Lazaridis 2014) have various levels of West Asian admixture that puts them in between Albanians and Armenians, next to Crete, as you can see in their FST distances below:




> fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greek_Thessaloniki", pop2 = c("Cretan.DG", "Armenian.DG", "Albanian.DG"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
> ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
> ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
> ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 19 samples in 4 populations
> ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 86 MB
> 597k SNPs read...
> ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
> ! 584443 SNPs remain after filtering. 409001 are polymorphic.
> ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 584443 SNPs and 4 populations is 61 MB
> ...

----------


## eupator

> Is there any of the fighting leader of the Greek Revolution not Arvanites (Albanian - Christian)?



I don't know for sure, mate, I haven't read too much for the particularities of that period, there were alot of Albanophones and Arvanites in their ranks for sure.

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## iluvatar

> I don't have time to waste on pendantics.
> 
> The GREEKALPOP samples in the Reich HO dataset with reference to Thessaloniki in the .anno file (originally from Lazaridis 2014) have various levels of West Asian admixture that puts them in between Albanians and Armenians, next to Crete, like you can see in their FST distances below:


I don’t know what GREEKALPOP represents. You mentioned the Thessaloniki samples from the Lazaridis study. The samples labeled "Greek Thessaloniki" are clearly located northeast of the "Crete Armenoi" high steppe sample and not with the blue Cretan dots. Regardless though i don’t see how any of this is relevant? There were no models involving moderns in the 2017 paper. The samples labeled "Greek Macedonia" in the "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier" study look similar (again clustering with Albanians). That is the study where models for moderns where provided.

----------


## Kuivamaa

> Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.


In 1912, before any exchange of populations/ethnic cleansing/whatnot (after the short lived Bulgarian conquest in 1913 lots of Greeks got expelled or left) had about 255,000 inhabitants, 31% Greek, 55% Muslim and 13% Bulgarian.

----------


## eupator

> I don’t know what GREEKALPOP represents. You mentioned the Thessaloniki samples from the Lazaridis study. The samples labeled "Greek Thessaloniki" are clearly located northeast of the "Crete Armenoi" high steppe sample and not with the blue Cretan dots. Regardless though i don’t see how any of this is relevant? There were no models involving moderns in the 2017 paper. The samples labeled "Greek Macedonia" in the "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier" study look similar (again clustering with Albanians). That is the study where models for moderns where provided.


The GREEKALPOP is the reference name.

The FST distance run is the proof for the argument I made several posts ago, you can scroll back and re-read.

The Danubian frontier paper is irrelevant to this argument, you just try obfuscate because you got dunked on by the evidence.

Everything I referenced can be recreated by everyone in 5 mins using the open sourced tools available and the Reich dataset which is also freely available.

----------


## Kuivamaa

> It is possible with Y-DNA. You can’t go wrong with that.


In the context we discuss you can go very wrong with that.

----------


## eupator

Instructions:

Visit: https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pu...ated_releases/

Download the HO files.

Open the .anno file and using CTRL+F find the GREEKALPOP samples, originally from Lazaridis 2014, with reference : Thessaloniki as place of origin.

Use my guide to run FST distances to each one of them using also Cretan.DG so you can verify what I say, or rename all these in the second row of the .ind file (that's what I've done, see "Greek_Thessaloniki") to use as an average.

I don't think I can be more explicit than this, I am sorry if you don't understand.

----------


## blevins13

> I don't know for sure, mate, I haven't read too much for the particularities of that period, there were alot of Albanophones and Arvanites in their ranks for sure.


The beauty of it is that they were fighting Turk-Alvani as they are know to Greeks (Albanian - Muslims, and Albanian Catholics as well) on the other side. 
Even the army of Ibrahim Pasha from Egypt that took Missolonghi had mostly Albanians. 

So why we get so much hate from Greeks, at the end it was an Albanian clash left in hold for so long. The side that got western support got the upper hand.

I am wondering if they knew at that time that were part of the Greek Revolution. 

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## eupator

> So why we get so much hate from Greeks



I don't hate Albanians, I can only speak for myself.

----------


## iluvatar

> That's not exactly true, Pontics were around 350K registered with the Lausanne Treaty, imo much more in actual numbers, and another 150K from the Caucasus/former USSR in the early 1990s.


The official census is more accurate to the amount that reached and stayed in Greece because it is also reflective of things like the high, in the early years, emigration aswel as mortality, as a result of diseases and the inability of the Greek state to provide proper care to the refugees (things I’m sure you are aware of). 

Population exchange.jpg

I wont discuss this anymore though because it paints the wrong picture. 




> The GREEKALPOP is the reference name.
> 
> The FST distance run is the proof for the argument I made several posts ago, you can scroll back and re-read.


Fst is irrelevant to the discussion. A sample from Thessaloniki clustering with Cretans wouldn't be surprising. The samples from Thessaloniki in the 2017 paper clearly don’t, I guess because they selected for pre 1923 ancestry. If GREEKALPOP clusters with Cretans than it is a different sample from the one used in the 2017 paper. This is not negotiable but clearly obvious. They are northeast of the Mycenaeans because of Slavic admixture and Cretans are the blue dots east of the Mycenaeans.

Mycenaeans.jpg

Again though I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion because no arguments were made in that paper using them. The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model moderns. 

What the hypothetical average in Macedonia is now I don’t know. I would guess somewhere between the islands and the old cluster.

The Izmir samples clearly represent the bulk of the Greeks of Anatolia as most were situated in western Anatolia. The ones from Thrace and Constantinople were also numerous. 
Popexchange.jpgPopexchange.jpg

The point is there was nothing introduced in Macedonia that didn’t exist in the rest of Greece for a long time (the hypothetical average of the exchange population would be somewhere between the islands and the mainland with some admixture from the Pontic cluster). Since, as a result of people flocking to the cities, people from areas in Greece that received little settlement of refugees have also moved in Thessaloniki in large numbers. All in all not much has changed other than the island and mainland cluster probably coming closer together.

Now how the situation in Macedonia concerns Balkan nationalists I still don’t know since it just one area of Greece and in the grand scheme of things it changes very little. 

Finally it is worth mentioning that profiles of groups like the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are in all likelyhood, for the most part, alot older than people realise. When we get samples from the relevant areas we will test this assertion. I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different. 

But anyway I’m off, I wont be following this thread anymore. Good luck with your spite driven crusade Eupator.

----------


## Dorian9

So what we gather from the above is that Albanians is not really an ethnic group but more like a job title ,they're mercenaries.. they go where the power and money is. This tradition hasn't changed to this day , they keep wanting to become Greeks , Swiss and so on .I guess it must be the governments of those pushing them to..in the end ,what do they need a state for?

Hail Georgios Kastriotis..

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.


Serbs are mainly mix of Paleo Balkan and Slavic. Models that use separate Balkan and Slavic proxies mess up so im stuck with using Serbians. I'm trying to isolate ancient Greek ancestry and not estimate Slavic accurately. So Serbian works well for the general high steppe northern non-Greek ancestry since modern Greeks have both Pre Slavic Balkan and actual Slavic ancestry,

I used Armenian as a general Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because it works well for general Anatolian + Pontic + other Caucasus related shift. There are no good ancient Anatolian samples published yet to be used as proxies. Also obviously im not gonna use Greek Anatolians who might have Greek ancestry, i tried adding both Greek_Anatolian and Armenian as proxies on G25 and the results were the same anyway, the calculator prefers Armenian because modern Greeks require a proxy with higher CHG/Iran N. I tried using Greek Anatolians and Bronze Age Anatolians as a proxy on qpAdm but it caused high std Errors. Anatolian Bronze Age like people are ancestral to ancient Greeks by around 40% so they cannot be used as a proxy.

This is what Turks score with the same models

Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 0.9214% / 0.00921406


43.2
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian)



36.2
Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad



11.4
4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



7.4
1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc



1.8
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC


Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 0.5316% / 0.00531589


66.0
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian)



24.2
Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad



4.4
4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



4.0
1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc



1.2
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC



0.2
African

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any. 
> 
> From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:
> 
> “We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. *However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus*, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”


The Serbian proxy is not 100% Slavic. Its used as a proxy for both Balkan and Slavic shift and even general European non-ancient-Greek ancestry.

Their Slavic was deflated because of the lack of a Levantine proxy. Also Cypriots scored negative value in that paper because they did not use a Levantine proxy. Obviously such models make no sense and the shifts are completely misleading. They didn't do enough testing. If you dont use a Levantine proxy then the Dodecanese and Cypriots Slavic will seem lower. 

Whoever made those models did not understand well how qpAdm works. I can't believe that they did not even think to check by using a Levantine proxy.

----------


## Kuivamaa

> The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.


I have only recently started to post here and I am mostly unaware of various posting agendas although I start to get an idea. To strengthen your point I will repeat this: 
Western Anatolia has seen a constant influx of Greeks from both Aegean islands and the mainland for several centuries up until 1922. We aren’t talking just the usual suspects (the big islands of eastern Aegean like Chios and Lesbos). Dodecanese was a big contributor.Cyclades even more so.We also have significant and well attested migration flows from mainland to the Anatolian coast.After the first Russo-Ottoman war in particular Peloponnesus experienced an exodus towards urban areas (20.000 people around 1780 ). We also have data of people from as north as Veria that ended up in Smyrna well before 1922. Greeks from Anatolia that got exchanged in 1922 often strong, recent genetic ties to Greece. I can’t post the link to the Greek source study due to low number of posts but it is from Ιωάννης Καραχρηστος (Διασχίζοντας το Αιγαίο).

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.


Are you seriously trying to attack the credibility of people just because you assume that they are jealous? Is that you projecting your own feelings?
Mainland Greeks have 3-4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. You do realize the astronomical amount of Northern ancestry that is required to do such thing?

Yes the ancient Greeks literally had 30-40% Anatolia BA related ancestry. Where do you think their Iran N and excess CHG comes from? Have you seen the Pre-Hellenic populations of Greece from the Neolithic to the Bronze age? They start being ANF Barcin_N like and then they shift towards Anatolia BA by an increase of CHG and Iran N like ancestry, then the Mycenaeans appear to be a 70% mix of those Pre-Hellenic populations and 30% South Balkan.

Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288


39.6
Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc



30.4
Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin



30.0
GRC_Logkas_MBA(Maybe_Proto-Greek-like)







> And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
> It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.


Mainland Greeks literally have 3 to 4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. Do you realize how much of Northern non-Greek admix that is required to do such increase of steppe? Minimum 40% if it was just pure Slavic which is NOT and 50-60% if its Balkan and Slavic which it is.

----------


## Angela

> These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any. 
> 
> From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:
> 
> “We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. *However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus*, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”
> 
> *Concerning the Byzantine relocations from the east Eupator cites, we already know they didn’t play much of a role because again as per the Marathon sample which is dated to 252-412 CE, a Dodecanesian like profile already existed in Greece. When taking such a profile as a starting point nothing from the east gets picked up for modern Greek samples. In fact something abit more western like the Maniots (they plot with or slightly west of Crete) works better for mainland groups than using Dodecanesians.* 
> 
> Therefore, *movements mentioned in vague historical sources are not solid proof of population replacement, ancient Dna is*, at least when there is an adequate sample size to cover different eras and areas. We are quite a bit off from having an exhaustive sample size but we will eventually get there. S*ome of the theories proposed here might be proven, or not and some atleast (like byzantine era movements) already look unlikely.
> ...


Excellent post. Thank-you. Finally, someone who understands how to handle historical sources and when a genetic similarity is a coincidence, and when it is a sign of admixture. For the latter you need historical evidence.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Also, concerning linguistic affinities especially in the late Ottoman period.
> 
> This ethnographic map by Cvijic shows the linguistic (the term ethnic is used rather) for the late Ottoman period in the region.
> 
> My father's village as you can see below is painted as brown=Greek.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Arvanites that helped in the building of the Selim mosque were Arvanites (Albanian speakers). They settled in the village of Megalo Zaloufi and Mandritsa. The were other villages in Eastern Thrace that were founded by Arbanites refugees as a result of the destruction of Moschopolis and Vithkouki in Albania in 1769. They settled in the towns of Imprik Tepe (Κιουτέζα) και Sultankoy (Βιθκούκι), and the smaller villages of Altin Tas, Pazar Dere, Yilanli, and Karaja Halil.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Modern Peloponnesians can’t be medieval Anatolian/south Italian Greek replacements while simultaneously having substantial Slavic ancestry and no ancient Greek ancestry, all while really being Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. That would be a gymnastic level of shape shifting to make a Fallmerayer type of argument.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Modern Peloponnesians can’t be medieval Anatolian/south Italian Greek replacements while simultaneously having substantial Slavic ancestry and no ancient Greek ancestry, all while really being Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. That would be a gymnastic level of shape shifting to make a Fallmerayer type of argument.


Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic. 
Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115


37.0
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



31.2
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



17.0
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC



14.8
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)


Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7652% / 0.00765245


52.0
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



29.6
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



12.0
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC



6.4
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)


Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia
Distance: 0.7745% / 0.00774540


44.2
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



26.0
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



22.0
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)



7.8
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC






Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 0.7222% / 0.00722199


59.4
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



21.0
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



19.6
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)


Target: Greek_Achaea
Distance: 0.6698% / 0.00669781


53.6
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



29.8
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



10.2
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC



6.4
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.1229% / 0.01122937


54.6
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)



34.6
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)



10.8
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)

----------


## matadworf

> Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic. 
> Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
> Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115
> 
> 
> 37.0
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
> 
> 
> ...


Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.



Calculator Source:


```
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502

2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028

3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic):Armenian,0.1034341,0.13861054,-0.056434355,-0.062990873,-0.027627409,-0.016951482,0.0038348,-0.0061151,-0.028213127,-0.0019019,0.0034337909,0.0020599545,-0.0026677727,0.0023908727,-0.0062209091,-0.00058341818,0.0025223182,0.0013912818,0.0017540818,-0.0018327,0.0017730455,0.0017749727,-0.0010857182,-0.0008993,0.0010700727

4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian),0.1273334,0.137229,0.040024,0.0148299,0.0314974,0.0045957,0.0048738,0.006672,-0.0011737,-7.9e-06,-0.0022946,-0.001251,0.0034128,0.012434,-0.0128875,-0.0008358,0.0040476,0.0005894,0.0043011,-0.0024468,-0.0083168,-0.0017151,0.0048925,0.000372,-0.0020097
```

Greek Targets:


```
Greek_Cypriot,0.1018718,0.1466806,-0.0343886,-0.0680319,-0.0024042,-0.0226075,-0.0005141,-0.0038798,-0.0029784,0.0168911,0.0034406,0.0013208,0.00013,0.0022106,-0.0131309,0.0010028,0.0056799,0.0009977,0.0037945,-0.0017352,-0.0019652,0.0018239,-0.0011324,0.0027337,-0.0007709
Greek_Achaea,0.1176476,0.1447334,0.008915,-0.0254524,0.0186618,-0.0085564,0.0029704,-7.38e-05,0.0028634,0.0153514,0.0010198,0.0014746,-0.0018315,0.006727,-0.0149347,-0.0008963,0.0074268,-0.0001216,0.0049677,-0.004047,-0.0064686,0.0013948,0.0035248,0.0019616,-0.0025866
Greek_Arcadia,0.1173137,0.1434605,0.0074167,-0.0243973,0.0207219,-0.011323,0.003337,-4.62e-05,-0.0002999,0.015235,0.0016347,0.0019181,-0.0021704,0.0085878,-0.0162594,-0.0033235,0.0038595,0.0007095,0.0070473,-0.0058945,-0.007337,-0.0005687,0.0013559,0.0001124,-0.0007663
Greek_Argolis,0.1198699,0.143634,0.0072359,-0.0265264,0.0190804,-0.0092382,0.0014982,-0.0011106,-0.0006774,0.0167202,0.0027098,0.0024354,-0.0035214,0.0072424,-0.0158029,-0.0028425,0.0068207,0.0013936,0.0059943,-0.0055808,-0.0083368,0.0005334,0.0015714,9.79e-05,-0.0029189
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
Greek_Corinthia,0.1185182,0.1451572,0.0064346,-0.0262841,0.0191573,-0.0088025,0.0018947,-0.0004902,0.0007668,0.0167543,0.001563,0.0023229,-0.0036701,0.0068037,-0.0156502,-0.0015994,0.0104959,0.0001266,0.0073848,-0.0052291,-0.0078612,-0.0003553,0.0024342,0.0030349,-0.0011226
Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692
Greek_Deep_Mani,0.1106252,0.1485574,-0.011152,-0.0442049,0.0119434,-0.0166139,0.0008952,-0.000989,0.0015582,0.0186748,0.0019332,0.0022052,-0.0026263,0.0046202,-0.013501,-0.0039461,0.0044454,0.0015564,0.0034178,-0.0042818,-0.006447,0.0014544,0.0002465,0.0001434,-0.0008668
Greek_Dodecanese,0.1059692,0.1461347,-0.0244374,-0.0567511,0.0021851,-0.0183789,0.0038071,-0.0042228,-0.0028019,0.0166563,0.0048066,0.0020682,-0.0044895,-0.0005644,-0.0123505,-0.0012728,0.0032987,0.0050168,0.0058701,-0.0047523,-0.0043049,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127
Greek_East_Taygetos,0.1150109,0.1460155,0.0047548,-0.0286206,0.0174345,-0.0104887,0.0022683,-0.0005318,0.0011383,0.013747,0.001059,0.0011339,-0.0021912,0.0070846,-0.0128167,-0.0036895,0.0039286,0.0010411,0.0034376,-0.0050459,-0.0053601,0.0018118,0.0031883,0.0015821,-0.0008902
Greek_Elis,0.1157677,0.1446283,0.0068195,-0.0252344,0.0180801,-0.0090639,0.0024088,0.0015192,0.000375,0.0140854,0.0017525,0.0022918,-0.0023414,0.0060496,-0.0155061,-0.0028507,0.0079481,0.001003,0.0067352,-0.0041583,-0.0060466,-7.21e-05,0.0019104,0.0012954,-0.0023351
Greek_Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
Greek_Laconia,0.1143004,0.1474811,0.0042943,-0.0296847,0.0171445,-0.0101211,0.002206,-0.000551,0.0011545,0.0148259,0.0030906,0.0009669,-0.0017647,0.0072185,-0.0141456,-0.0035201,0.0048915,0.0008909,0.0045211,-0.0064063,-0.0065208,0.0018549,0.0031527,0.0018075,-0.0020203
Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986
Greek_Messenia,0.1178508,0.1445568,0.0081661,-0.024225,0.0192461,-0.00871,0.0032629,2.67e-05,-3.14e-05,0.0146351,0.0010367,0.0016601,-0.0035851,0.0075851,-0.0144855,-0.0053903,0.0042024,0.0015056,0.008359,-0.0051948,-0.0062102,0.0019832,0.0026357,0.0018445,-0.0011423
Greek_North_Tsakonia,0.1169849,0.1444308,0.0005449,-0.030362,0.0156609,-0.0114654,0.0022717,0.0006667,0.0007272,0.0148826,0.0026342,0.0021814,-0.0024117,0.0077988,-0.0137228,-0.0073511,0.0010867,0.0024773,0.0061592,-0.0057807,-0.004104,0.0038469,0.0009177,0.0011244,0.0016898
Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506
Greek_South_Tsakonia,0.1163271,0.1441377,-0.0026399,-0.0354439,0.013705,-0.0118809,0.0016293,-0.0010462,-0.0001772,0.0167171,0.002858,0.0016585,-0.0039443,0.0036515,-0.0151555,-0.0001413,0.0093964,-0.0004814,0.004852,-0.0027095,-0.005091,0.0011789,0.0005342,-0.0001526,-0.0006147
Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0.0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
Greek_West_Taygetos,0.1175698,0.1442053,0.0094751,-0.0220582,0.0188753,-0.0080995,0.0044944,0.0011058,7.67e-05,0.0114581,0.0009607,0.0003308,-0.0003903,0.0069844,-0.0116832,-0.0025855,0.003955,0.0008921,0.0035772,-0.0040174,-0.0062598,4.62e-05,0.0016998,0.0020183,-0.0010777
```

----------


## bigsnake49

Be careful with possible overlap between Ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan. Ancient Greeks i.e. LBA Mycenaeans might already have Paleo Balkan ancestry. Try to use distinct populations with no overlap.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Be careful with possible overlap between Ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan. Ancient Greeks i.e. LBA Mycenaeans might already have Paleo Balkan ancestry. Try to use distinct populations with no overlap.


That is why i used Serbian which is a mix of Paleo-Balkan and Slavic and not separate Paleo-Balkan and Slavic proxies. I don't get why you said that when i made sure that the overlap doesn't happen.

Mycenaeans have around 30% Paleo-Balkan like admix probably more similar to the Logkas samples (almost 0 WHG). The rest of it is Minoan like.

----------


## bigsnake49

> That is why i used Serbian which is a mix of Paleo-Balkan and Slavic and not separate Paleo-Balkan and Slavic proxies. I don't get why you said that when i made sure that the overlap doesn't happen.
> 
> Mycenaeans have around 30% Paleo-Balkan like admix probably more similar to the Logkas samples (almost 0 WHG). The rest of it is Minoan like.


Serbians and ancient Greeks still overlap because they both might have Paleo-balkan in their ancestry.

----------


## Angela

Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.


Edit: i didnt see you were not replying to me

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Serbians and ancient Greeks still overlap because they both might have Paleo-balkan in their ancestry.


They will NOT overlap. How much Paleo-Balkan did you think the ancient Greeks were? They had 30% South "Paleo-Balkan" and not 100%. Also the Paleo-Balkan ancestry in ancient Greeks is not the same as the Paleo-Balkan in Serbians. 

The Paleo-Balkan ancestors of Serbians have 3 to 4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. Obviously that's a huge difference.


Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288


39.6
Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc



30.4
Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin_6400bc



30.0
GRC_Logkas_MBA

----------


## eupator

> The official census is more accurate to the amount that reached and stayed in Greece because it is also reflective of things like the high, in the early years, emigration aswel as mortality, as a result of diseases and the inability of the Greek state to provide proper care to the refugees (things I’m sure you are aware of). 
> 
> I wont discuss this anymore though because it paints the wrong picture.


The repatriations continued all the way to 1928 and were several revisions to official numbers until then. Get with the program, man, you are the one distorting the truth by clinging to initial numbers just from 1922.




> Fst is irrelevant to the discussion. A sample from Thessaloniki clustering with Cretans wouldn't be surprising. The samples from Thessaloniki in the 2017 paper clearly don’t, I guess because they selected for pre 1923 ancestry. If GREEKALPOP clusters with Cretans than it is a different sample from the one used in the 2017 paper. This is not negotiable but clearly obvious. They are northeast of the Mycenaeans because of Slavic admixture and Cretans are the blue dots east of the Mycenaeans.
> 
> 
> Again though I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion because no arguments were made in that paper using them. The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model moderns.



I am going to try to explain this the best I can, because I give you the benefit of the doubt. On the PCA you linked there is 3 groups of Greek samples present in the Reich dataset by Lazaridis. Crete, Cyprus and the pink dots that are the GREEKALPOP samples from Thessaloniki. The FST table I linked show that these samples have various levels of West Asian admixture, hence they are pulled south near Crete. Otherwise (without that West Asian bit) they wouldn't cluster close to neither Crete nor the Myceneans. OK? 





> The Izmir samples clearly represent the bulk of the Greeks of Anatolia as most were situated in western Anatolia. The ones from Thrace and Constantinople were also numerous.
> 
> The point is there was nothing introduced in Macedonia that didn’t exist in the rest of Greece for a long time (the hypothetical average of the exchange population would be somewhere between the islands and the mainland with some admixture from the Pontic cluster). Since, as a result of people flocking to the cities, people from areas in Greece that received little settlement of refugees have also moved in Thessaloniki in large numbers. All in all not much has changed other than the island and mainland cluster probably coming closer together.


You don't need a lot of numbers of real West Asians, like Pontics and Central Anatolians who plot with South Caucasians or near them on those PCAs, to pull the rest south near to Crete. The Pontics were more numerous than enough to pull the rest of the mix of Balkanic-like and Peloponnesian-like mix of Macedonians + Smyrniotes to a profile that is closer to Crete, and henceforth to Myceneans.




> Finally it is worth mentioning that profiles of groups like the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are in all likelyhood, for the most part, alot older than people realise. When we get samples from the relevant areas we will test this assertion. I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.


Regardless of their age, their profile is a South Caucasian one and the results of them participating in the mix of Macedonia+Thrace is the one I described above. I agree with the rest of your post.




> But anyway I’m off, I wont be following this thread anymore. Good luck with your spite driven crusade Eupator.


Yes, too bad you don't have your anthrogenica mod buddies to just ban me this time as well. It would have been much easier I am sure. Tell the rest of your ag gang I am always up for discussion on boards you can't censor me.

----------


## Constantine

> Pontic Greeks do differ but so what? Their profile is likely for the most part ancient anyway. But since I know that won’t convince the usual Balkan nationalists and since Eupator is so insistent on painting them as a foreign element, let me point out that they only really constituted about 18% of the population that was exchanged (this includes the ones from the Caucasus). Again i cant post links but you can check the official census for that.


Pundits on these types of forums like to make a ruckus about the Pontians, but I don't see what the big deal is. They don't have much that isn't in Greece already. In time their "profile" will simply disappear without a trace into the Greek gene pool. Like they were never there.

----------


## eupator

> In time their "profile" will simply disappear without a trace into the Greek gene pool. Like they were never there.


Given the current trends of demographic collapse in the country, this is a grim reality for everyone in it not just Pontic genetics.

Culturally, Pontics enjoy a revival of numbers never seen before.

----------


## Constantine

> Given the current trends of demographic collapse in the country, this is a grim reality for everyone in it not just Pontic genetics.
> 
> Culturally, Pontics enjoy a revival of numbers never seen before.


Yes, the demographic stuff I've been seeing is scary (and sad). But Pontics are probably not different enough and numerous enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness" of modern Greeks. People seem to like painting them as these unsavory, Greek-imposter ingredients in the stew. 

In general, I think they are more ancient than people give them credit for and not these "Hellenized Georgians" as some like to say.

----------


## blevins13

> I guess it must be the governments of those pushing them to..in the end ,what do they need a state for?..


Which one Greece or Albania?
One of the Albanian Muslims one for the Albanian Orthodox. They had Egypt as well for a while for the ones that like exotic things. 
And all this because they could. 




Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Bill7

OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks

----------


## blevins13

> OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks


No that was not my point. My post were related to a specific place called Morea. 
You can find your origin in Middle Ages like I did? I did not see under your profile.

Follow my example:

The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.


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----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> No that was not my point. My post were related to a specific place called Morea. 
> You can find your origin in Middle Ages like I did? I did not see under your profile.
> 
> Follow my example:
> 
> The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level. 
Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.

----------


## eupator

> This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level. 
> Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.



It hasn't derailed at all, you just want to lock it because you're salty about the content, cry me a river, dude. And ad hominems are the last resort of the desperate, you are the only person in the thread attacking posters personally without addressing their points, I wonder if the leeway the moderation is showing to your vulgarity is indicative of them endorsing your language.

----------


## blevins13

> This thread has already derailed and only "not very bright" individuals (to use an euphemism) keep on saying really dumb claims, but this "ethnicity depends on Y-DNA branch" is on another whole level. 
> Without a doubt the dumbest thing I've read on this forum.


Don’t forget “when” they are related. Take some time to absorb it.

I either follow my logic, which makes me Albanian. Or I have to believe that based on PCA, I am an Ancient North Epirot, which is the “Cradle” of Proto Greeks according to Yetos.

Let me know which one is right.

Not sure why I get so much heat from Italians.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## matadworf

> Calculator Source:
> 
> 
> ```
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
> 
> 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
> 
> ...



So Paleo Balkan/Slav has higher Steppe in and out itself if you include the Steppe already in the BGR EBA so around 50% close to a modern day Serb.
Target: .Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
Distance: 2.9011% / 0.02901057 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC


71.4
BGR_EBA


17.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus


11.4
TUR_Barcin_N


0.0
Baltic_LVA_HG


0.0
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



The BGR EBA has fairly high Steppe as well and includes the EHG.
Target: BGR_EBA:I2165
Distance: 1.7086% / 0.01708639 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC


43.6
TUR_Barcin_N


32.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus


14.2
Baltic_LVA_HG


10.2
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N


0.0
TUR_Titris_Hoyuk_EBA



It's interesting but the Empuries sample also has some Steppe possibly more than the Mycenean samples:
Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
Distance: 1.6556% / 0.01655637 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC


52.6
TUR_Barcin_N


17.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus


16.8
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


8.8
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res


4.8
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

----------


## Pashai Janinës

> OK eupator and blevins we get your point there are no real Greek mainlanders left. Everyone is an arvanitovlach, a hellenised slav or a west Asian Greek from pontus and cappadocia, we went extinct and we are impostors pretending to be Greeks


https://www.academia.edu/32315577/Fearful_History

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> It hasn't derailed at all, you just want to lock it because you're salty about the content, cry me a river, dude. And ad hominems are the last resort of the desperate, you are the only person in the thread attacking posters personally without addressing their points, I wonder if the leeway the moderation is showing to your vulgarity is indicative of them endorsing your language.



"Vulgarity" is the usage of vulgar words, not sneer remarks about extremely dumb claims, and I have held back from commenting every wild speculation that I have seen presented here; I have presented a more articulated opinion before, and the only response I got has been more of the intellectual cricket noise I had seen. 

Since you want me "to address the point", do you earnestly think that Byzantine chroniclers support your wild speculations? How on earth do you conclude that since they reported that some were killed and some were relocated then there was a HUGE genetic turnover, since you lack critical contextual information before you can draw that conclusion, namely the percentage of the casualties with respect to the survivors and the percentage of the new settlers with respect to the total population. Ancient chroniclers reported _in the best cases_ what they experienced first hand, and more often than not what they _heard_, and rarely did they make an effort to evaluate critically their sources. Even in the cases they reported what they saw, it would barely support your claims, since it is very implausible that chroniclers would go about gathering numbers about the demographics of a region before and after the carnage/relocation/whatever else they reported, but they would know about/see a notable happening and report it in impressionistic terms. If you were to read other middle age chroniclers you would end up believing that in Europe no one has ancestors residing in a region for longer than a couple of centuries. 
True historical demographics research is very, very hard, and every specialist in this field _would laugh_ at your reconstructions merely based on chroniclers' accounts (if you don't like sneer remarks then read: _it doesn't at all satisfy the minimum levels of rigour_, since when demographic censuses of some sort lack, then the historian uses at least one other surrogate to infer the demographics of a region), and especially they would laugh, and very loudly, at the absolute certainty you claim your reconstructions have: historians engage in researches that might last for years, gathering evidence that by far and large surpass your reference to Byzantine chroniclers in both quality and quantity, and yet present their statements with much more caution. 
Here it is a word you show not to understand: _caution_; it isn't just a matter of false modesty, but it is an epistemological principle that you ought not to draw more than what it is reasonably plausible from your evidence. The only reasonably plausible conclusion you can draw from your chronicler's work is that _a huge demographic turnover is compatible with their reports_, not that it is "proven", a "historical truth" as you claimed.
As for this supposed huge demographic turnover, the evidence from genetics so far is that only Slavic gene flow has moderately impacted Greece, and everything else is just (wild, unfounded) speculation. 
Your statements that I or others claim a "2000 year old unbroken continuity" are patent strawmen, since what we claim is that _the majority of (European) Greeks' autosomal DNA comes from ancient Greeks_, which is what the genetic evidence so far shows and the actual consensus. Mind you, it doesn't exclude that there were some other genetic inputs, which would be merely impossible, but it does mean that _the bulk of modern Greeks genetics'_ _is best explained by a mixing of ancient Greeks and slavs_, which means that the purported shifts caused by Armenians, Levantines and Albanians or Serbs (and how would you tell apart Albanians' autosomal from Greeks'?), somehow all ending up looking like a much simpler ancient Greek+Slav (which is exactly what you would expect from history) mix, are ruled out. 


Furthermore, for a person that claims to have a Ph.D. in Ethnography (and it is very easy to claim things on the internet), it is very peculiar to have "eastern rum" as his stated ethnicity when you grew up in Greece, and any ethnographer would very promptly laugh at the claim that ethnicity "depends on the Y-branch".

----------


## eupator

> snip


Firstly, I am not endorsing poster blevin's opinion on HGs, I only focus on the points I make, so please stop with the strawmen and trying to put words in my mouth. You seem to somehow think you have some sort of moral high ground that allows you to use ad homs ad libitum against others.

Secondly, you still haven't provided any proof to the contrary, I am still waiting to see how these Byzantine chroniclers you and some other posters hold in low regard were wrong. 

Instead, you just chose to write an incredibly long and emotional piece on what essentially constitutes your personal feelings on the matter, which is duly noted I guess.

And, since you are a foreigner to these lands, ethnographers in Greece get attacked all the time when they inevitable break the nationalists' narrative, we are used to such political violence, look no further than Karakasidou's work in Macedonia.

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> Don’t forget “when” they are related. Take some time to absorb it.
> 
> I either follow my logic, which makes me Albanian. Or I have to believe that based on PCA, I am an Ancient North Epirot, which is the “Cradle” of Proto Greeks according to Yetos.
> 
> Let me know which one is right.
> 
> Not sure why I get so much heat from Italians.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


You know you are an Albanian because your parents identified as Albanians as as far as you know your ancestors identified as Albanians; it isn't a "politically correct" definition of "ethnicity" that merely requires self-identification since it demands a tradition of consistent self-identification at least by part of the majority of your ancestors. Contrary to politically correct definitions it doesn't inflate "nationality" (though etymologically it ought to mean the same as ethnicity, but the usage confers them different meaning) with "ethnicity", and it is outside of a person's free choice since no one decides which ethnicity to be born into, yet "ethnicity" remains a cultural construct, a persistent cultural construct with remarkable stability (most of the times), and _thanks to its historical persistence_ it is possible to link it to some general genetic profile, namely the average genetic profile that people that identified as X show, and this because unsurprisingly people that identify as belonging to the same group are more likely to mate, but it remains a cultural entity, since people don't go about taking DNA tests to know their ethnicity. 

You said that ethnicity _depends on Y-branch_, which remains utterly comical even when you want to add the "when" restriction. Even when you had in mind the average genetic profile(s) linked to an ethnic group, the idea that it is the Y-branch that is important rather than the autosomal profile is utterly wrong.

----------


## eupator

> it is very peculiar to have "eastern rum" as his stated ethnicity when you grew up in Greece


Oh, okay, I missed that gem the first time I read your post.

I assume you, as a foreigner, are all things expert when it comes to Greek people, you get to gatekeep what terminology we use or not because that one time you spoke to a couple of Greeks on the internet.

Grace us with your favor and tell us what are the acceptable self-identifications we can use as to avoid your judgement.

 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## blevins13

> You know you are an Albanian because your parents identified as Albanians as as far as you know your ancestors identified as Albanians; it isn't a "politically correct" definition of "ethnicity" that merely requires self-identification since it demands a tradition of consistent self-identification at least by part of the majority of your ancestors. Contrary to politically correct definitions it doesn't inflate "nationality" (though etymologically it ought to mean the same as ethnicity, but the usage confers them different meaning) with "ethnicity", and it is outside of a person's free choice since no one decides which ethnicity to be born into, yet "ethnicity" remains a cultural construct, a persistent cultural construct with remarkable stability (most of the times), and _thanks to its historical persistence_ it is possible to link it to some general genetic profile, namely the average genetic profile that people that identified as X show, and this because unsurprisingly people that identify as belonging to the same group are more likely to mate, but it remains a cultural entity, since people don't go about taking DNA tests to know their ethnicity. 
> 
> You said that ethnicity _depends on Y-branch_, which remains utterly comical even when you want to add the "when" restriction. Even when you had in mind the average genetic profile(s) linked to an ethnic group, the idea that it is the Y-branch that is important rather than the autosomal profile is utterly wrong.


You still do not get it, the same y-dna line that I have, now in Morea identify themself as Greeks, part of the Greek culture, but their ancestors identified as Albanians 1000 years ago. In Y-full you can identify when they split.
So yes it “depends” on Y-DNA so you can trace your line, and the “when” will tell you the culture, group of people, nationality, ethnicity your ancestor was part of. 

Not sure what’s not clear here. 


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----------


## Er Monnezza

> As for this supposed huge demographic turnover, the evidence from genetics so far is that only Slavic gene flow has moderately impacted Greece, and everything else is just (wild, unfounded) speculation. 
> Your statements that I or others claim a "2000 year old unbroken continuity" are patent strawmen, since what we claim is that _the majority of (European) Greeks' autosomal DNA comes from ancient Greeks_, which is what the genetic evidence so far shows and the actual consensus. Mind you, it doesn't exclude that there were some other genetic inputs, which would be merely impossible, but it does mean that _the bulk of modern Greeks genetics'_ _is best explained by a mixing of ancient Greeks and slavs_, which means that the purported shifts caused by Armenians, Levantines and Albanians or Serbs (and how would you tell apart Albanians' autosomal from Greeks'?), somehow all ending up looking like a much simpler ancient Greek+Slav (which is exactly what you would expect from history) mix, are ruled out.


But when you say "Ancient Greeks," who exactly are you referring to? The Mycenaeans?

Greeks and Balkanians are not simply LBA/IA locals + Medieval Slavs. The picture is more complicated than that.

Taking the Bulgarians as an example, they have virtually the same amount of CHG and Iran_N as their Iron Age counterparts (assuming the BGR_IA singleton is a good proxy, which it may not be) while having at the same time a heavy recent contribution from the north. This means that indeed there has been a recent contribution from the east over the past 2,500 years.

All the samples used in the model below pre-date 7000 BC.

Sample
TUR
UKR
IRN
GEO

Bulgarian
55,2
25,8
9,6
9,4

BGR_IA
75,6
7,4
8,8
8,2

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> Firstly, I am not endorsing poster blevin's opinion on HGs, I only focus on the points I make, so please stop with the strawmen and trying to put words in my mouth. You seem to somehow think you have some sort of moral high ground that allows you to use ad homs ad libitum against others.
> 
> Secondly, you still haven't provided any proof to the contrary, I am still waiting to see how these Byzantine chroniclers you and some other posters hold in low regard were wrong. 
> 
> Instead, you just chose to write an incredibly long and emotional piece on what essentially constitutes your personal feelings on the matter, which is duly noted I guess.
> 
> And, since you are a foreigner to these lands, ethnographers in Greece get attacked all the time when they inevitable break the nationalists' narrative, we are used to such political violence, look no further than Karakasidou's work in Macedonia.


 First, I do not have to provide any proof that "the Byzantine chroniclers were wrong", since what I've argued for is that 1) you can't draw huge population replacements from what you've posted and 2) it is a bad idea to uncritically hold every detail they have reported as true, since ancient chronicler were rather imprecise and reported their information in rather impressionistic terms. The second point is critically what they first teach you in history classes. 

Second, the only genuine ad hominem I used is the accusation that non-European Greeks seem to want European Greeks to have as much low as possible continuity with ancient Greeks, which is a legitimate ad hominem since for some reasons you and these others are dismissing the existing consensus with arguments that are extremely shaky,to say the least, and you are claiming that your "evidence" is better than what the official consensus is; the other "ad hominems" I think you're referring to are the "dumb" or similar adjectives I use, which aren't ad hominem since they refer to statements, not people. Since I notice a quite patent lack of understanding of Logics, let me be clear on one thing: if you read carefully what I wrote, I never implied that Anatolian and Cyprus Greeks aren't Greek, since they descend from people that identified as Greek for at least a millenium and half, but it remains true that genetically they are largely descendents of people that were not ancient Greeks, so it is fishy when _some_ non-European Greeks that are interested in archaeogenetics claim _contrary to every evidence_ that also European Greeks largely do not descend from ancient Greeks. To me it seems evident that the only thing that motivates these quite bizzarre claims is that such non-European Greeks think that the reality of their genetics diminish their "Greekness", so they want European Greeks as well to have as little as possible continuity with ancient Greeks. It's true that some European Greeks hold this view that Anatolian and Cypriot Greeks "aren't real Greeks", but an idiotic statement doesn't make another idiotic statement true or valid.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Yes, the demographic stuff I've been seeing is scary (and sad). But Pontics are probably not different enough and numerous enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness" of modern Greeks. People seem to like painting them as these unsavory, Greek-imposter ingredients in the stew. 
> 
> In general, I think they are more ancient than people give them credit for and not these "Hellenized Georgians" as some like to say.


I'm not arguing that they are not Greek or anything like that but genetically Pontic Greeks are as close to Mycenaean as are Canaanites from 1800bc. Obviously they are different enough. That's like saying "Pure Canaanites are probably not different enough to matter in these calculations of "ancient Greekness".

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> But when you say "Ancient Greeks," who exactly are you referring to? The Mycenaeans?
> 
> Greeks and Balkanians are not simply LBA/IA locals + Medieval Slavs. The picture is more complicated than that.
> 
> Taking the Bulgarians as an example, they have virtually the same amount of CHG and Iran_N as their Iron Age counterparts (assuming the BGR_IA singleton is a good proxy, which it may not be) while having at the same time a heavy recent contribution from the north. This means that indeed there has been a recent contribution from the east over the past 2,500 years.
> 
> All the samples used in the model below pre-date 7000 BC.
> 
> Sample
> ...



The paper on the Danubian limes modelled modern Greeks (plus Cretans) as Empuries+Slavic; I agree that some higher CHG is required, and _some_ contributions from either western Anatolians (modelled in said paper as half Anatolia_BA and half Balkan_IA) and part of eastern Balkans (whose higher CHG might go back to direct catacomb admixture or later Scythian or both) is likely, but what I claim is that the bulk of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from ancient Greeks(contrasted with the other claim that Greeks descend largely from anyone else but local Greeks), which seems likely also given the leaked BIOMUSE samples, and is the conclusion drawn since Lazaridis 2017.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> The paper on the Danubian limes modelled modern Greeks (plus Cretans) as Empuries+Slavic; I agree that some higher CHG is required, and _some_ contributions from either western Anatolians (modelled in said paper as half Anatolia_BA and half Balkan_IA) and part of eastern Balkans (whose higher CHG might go back to direct catacomb admixture or later Scythian or both) is likely, but what I claim is that the bulk of modern Greeks' ancestry comes from ancient Greeks(contrasted with the other claim that Greeks descend largely from anyone else but local Greeks), which seems likely also given the leaked BIOMUSE samples, and is the conclusion drawn since Lazaridis 2017.


Also Cypriots and Dodecanese require a Levantine proxy. Modern Greeks have around 20-40% ancient Greek ancestry depending on the region.

Biomuse models are awful. I repeated the same faulty models on qpAdm by biomuse on Mycenaeans who actually have 11% Steppe. The biomuse models inflated Mycenaean's steppe to 27%. Biomuse used models meant for Germanic/Slavic people and inflated the Iron age Greek's steppe. They didn't even use CHG and Iran N proxies which cause Steppe to be inflated. 

Aren't Biomuse the one's that made the paper that claimed modern Greeks are 90% Bronze Age Thessaly (obviously not true) and completely ignored Slavic admix?

----------


## Leopoldo Leone

> You still do not get it, the same y-dna line that I have, now in Morea identify themself as Greeks, part of the Greek culture, but their ancestors identified as Albanians 1000 years ago. In Y-full you can identify when they slip.
> So yes it “depends” on Y-DNA so you can trace your line, and the “when” will tell you the culture, group of people, nationality, ethnicity your ancestor was part of. 
> 
> Not sure what’s not clear here. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


I am keeping responding to such ramblings because I have the impression that to leave such idiocy unanswered gives the impression that it is somehow justified: how do you know for certain that your clade of r1b is _ONLY_  Albanian? In order to draw such a conclusion, you _must_ know for certain that it was not existent in Morea before Albanians settled in; it is much more plausible that the R1b clades in both Greece and Albania are shared since ancient times.

----------


## ihype02

> Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic. 
> Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
> Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115
> 
> 
> 37.0
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
> 
> 
> ...


Using numerous sources you get an overfitted model.
Using a Dodecanese source Peloponessians sorce 25 to 30% Polish like ancestry or 45%-50% Serbian like.
Using multiply sources the North Slavic was nearly 35% which is a bit high if the Slavs that came to Greece were pure.

----------


## blevins13

Double post

----------


## blevins13

> I am keeping responding to such ramblings because I have the impression that to leave such idiocy unanswered gives the impression that it is somehow justified: how do you know for certain that your clade of r1b is _ONLY_  Albanian? In order to draw such a conclusion, you _must_ know for certain that it was not existent in Morea before Albanians settled in; it is much more plausible that the R1b clades in both Greece and Albania are shared since ancient times.


I am not referring to all R1b, I am referring to this particular line Paternal Y-DNA: R1b- Z2705, you can look it up in y-full. It expanded in the last 1500 years somewhere in the western Balkans and some ended up in Morea. The question is not why is Albanian but when was Albanian and when become Greek. 
The Albanian core male lines are very distinct because they come from a very small group of people, very easy to trace. 

Do you understand now?!!!!
Why Idiocy Leo?!!! Isn’t this the way to track your ancestors?

Show as a better way Leo do not leave us in the Dark?

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Using numerous sources you get an overfitted model.
> Using a Dodecanese source Peloponessians sorce 25 to 30% Polish like ancestry or 45%-50% Serbian like.
> Using multiply sources the North Slavic was nearly 35% which is a bit high if the Slavs that came to Greece were pure.


Bruh that is why i used Serbian instead of slavic and balkan proxies separately. Modern Greeks have both Paleo Balkan and Slavic admix so it works fine.

----------


## Angela

What is this "Paleo-Balkan" nonsense? The only European hunter-gatherers who lived in the Balkans were up around the Gorge because of the good fishing there. There are numerous published papers which we have discussed here which document that. They intermarried with the incoming Anatolian farmers, although the percentage of HG was small. We have ancient Dna of the Neolithic in the Balkans which is documented, once again, in papers we discussed here. We also have Chalcolithic ancient dna. Then we have the arrival of steppe people who had already absorbed European farmer ancestry by the time they arrived. Again, read the darn papers. They're all here.

Finally, we have the latest big paper on the Balkans which give us samples which can be used. Yes, we don't yet have a good source for the Slavic speakers who entered the Balkans, but the first arrivals must have been pretty close to Poles or maybe Czechs. Using Serbs is not, imo, a very good idea.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> What is this "Paleo-Balkan" nonsense? The only European hunter-gatherers who lived in the Balkans were up around the Gorge because of the good fishing there. There are numerous published papers which we have discussed here which document that. They intermarried with the incoming Anatolian farmers, although the percentage of HG was small. We have ancient Dna of the Neolithic in the Balkans which is documented, once again, in papers we discussed here. We also have Chalcolithic ancient dna. Then we have the arrival of steppe people who had already absorbed European farmer ancestry by the time they arrived. Again, read the darn papers. They're all here.
> Finally, we have the latest big paper on the Balkans which give us samples which can be used. Yes, we don't yet have a good source for the Slavic speakers who entered the Balkans, but the first arrivals must have been pretty close to Poles or maybe Czechs. Using Serbs is not, imo, a very good idea.


Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.

I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.

I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.

----------


## matadworf

> Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages
> I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.
> I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.
> I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.


Wait a minute you're using Bulgarian EBA which has EEF, Steppe, and EHG as Paleobalkan correct? And your combining Bulgaria EBA with modern Serbian admixture to come up with the Paleobalkan/Slavic?

----------


## Ralphie Boy

There are a number of Peloponnesian males with J2a and G haplogroups. To say they have no ancient Greek descent means that none of their ancestors had it either. They would have all had to come from a non-Greek place—with Greek including parts of the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia, where ancient Greeks lived.

----------


## Angela

> Just by the fact that you thought Paleo Balkan meant European HG means you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you thought its nonsense since you didn't even know what it is.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages
> I obviously meant Iron Age Balkan populations and not European Hunter Garherers.
> I am not using Serbs as a Slavic or Balkan proxy. I literally said I'm using them as a proxy for both since they have ancestry from BOTH and modern Greeks also have ancestry from BOTH Paleo-Balkan and Slavic.
> I cannot use separate Paleo Balkan and Slavic proxies together when modeling ancient Greek ancestry on qpAdm and G25 i said that 100 times. The calculator and qpAdm mess up. On qpAdm it causes high std errors and on G25 overfits so only a proxy mixed between Paleo-Balkan and Slavic works and Serbian is a great option.


Buddy, change your tone and how you talk to moderators. For now it's an infraction; next time you'll be out of here so fast your damn head will be spinning. Got it?

If you're going to make up a term, EXPLAIN it without insulting the other poster. Also, look up the meaning of Paleo. 

What are you trying to prove? How much "Slavic ancestry" arrived in the Balkans to mix with the Iron Age inhabitants? Well, if that's what you're trying to do, I have no idea why you think using modern Serbs is a good option. I personally think mixing ancient with modern samples in a calculator is always a bad idea, but hey, you do you. The rest of us can make our own judgments as to whether it reflects reality.

----------


## matadworf

> There are a number of Peloponnesian males with J2a and G haplogroups. To say they have no ancient Greek descent means that none of their ancestors had it either. They would have all had to come from a non-Greek place—with Greek including parts of the Balkans, Italy and Anatolia, where ancient Greeks lived.


Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Buddy, change your tone and how you talk to moderators. For now it's an infraction; next time you'll be out of here so fast your damn head will be spinning. Got it?
> If you're going to make up a term, EXPLAIN it without insulting the other poster. Also, look up the meaning of Paleo. 
> What are you trying to prove? How much "Slavic ancestry" arrived in the Balkans to mix with the Iron Age inhabitants? Well, if that's what you're trying to do, I have no idea why you think using modern Serbs is a good option. I personally think mixing ancient with modern samples in a calculator is always a bad idea, but hey, you do you. The rest of us can make our own judgments as to whether it reflects reality.


I was trying to isolate mainly their ancient Greek admix. You cannot use both ancient Slavic and Balkan samples together to model ancient Greek ancestry. It simply doesnt work. I explained why many times why.

When you use Iron age balkan and and Medieval slavic or modern slavic samples to model Greeks sometimes it gives them just balkan instead of ancient Greek and other times it inflates the Slavic and gives no Balkan etc. It causes weird overfits. Even on qpAdm it causes high std errors so i need to use a proxy mixed between the 2.
Modern samples are not a problem if they have the appropriate admixture. 

If i just use ancient samples on qpAdm to model ancient Greek ancestry then modern Greeks score 10% Mycenean since they require a proxy with higher CHG and Iran N than Anatolia BA. So all they get is Slavic + Anatolia BA + very little Mycenean. So if you keep insisting not to use modern samples that is what happens.

I have no choice but to use Armenians as a general West Asian Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because they are kinda mixed with Anatolia/Caucasus/Mesolotamia and Serbian for Iron age Balkan and Medieval Slavic.

----------


## Angela

> Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!


Do you know your precise G haplogroup? My husband is also G.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> Hear hear! I'm a Peloponnesian Greek with G haplogroup. Not many of us around!


Trying to access the Y DNA of the Reich study but having a bit of difficulty now. Someone indicated somewhere that J2a-L70 from a Mycenaean site is in this study. One of my great-grandfathers was this haplogroup. Of course my line might not have anything to do with Mycenaeans but it’s nice to see another ancient sample pop up in the Balkans. By the way, the living person with this haplogroup in the family has mtDNA X2, which was also found in a Mycenaean site, in the first Mycenaean paper. Another coincidence perhaps, but still nice to see.

----------


## matadworf

> Do you know your precise G haplogroup? My husband is also G.


This was from Cladefinder yseq: G2a L1259. G-Z6484 is most specific position downstream of root.

----------


## Er Monnezza

Greek samples from the new Southern Arc paper

Sample
Date
Analysis_Label
Locality
Country
Lat.
Long.
Coverage
Y-DNA
mtDNA

I14916
-1818
GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA
Crete, Zakros, Karaviadaina
Greece
35,085833
26,247778
13,17%
n/a (female)
H

I6420
-1547
GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA
Fthiotis, Lokris, Proskynas
Greece
38,609
23,167
1,55%
J
..

I15582
-1516
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata
Greece
37,960919
23,939801
25,55%
n/a (female)
T2c1+146

I13519
-1480
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
2,12%
F
..

I14872
-1475
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata
Greece
37,960919
23,939801
2,32%
n/a (female)
HV

I15571
-1467
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata
Greece
37,960919
23,939801
43,29%
n/a (female)
HV0a

I16709
-1419
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata
Greece
37,960919
23,939801
15,29%
J-Y14434
H5

I13516
-1385
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
6,81%
n/a (female)
J1c1

I13510
-1328
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
7,67%
G-P287
H7

I13517
-1328
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
25,65%
G-Z6494
..

I19366
-1328
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
50,11%
n/a (female)
J1c+16261

I13578
-1312
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
12,52%
n/a (female)
K1a2

I13428
-1293
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
6,22%
G-L30
H2

I13579
-1266
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
18,01%
J-Y14434
W1

I13577
-1250
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
24,67%
G-Z7016
T2c1d1

I13536
-1250
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
0,46%
n/a (female)
..

I13531
-1250
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
2,23%
n/a (female)
U3b

I13433
-1250
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
2,61%
n/a (female)
U3b1

I13580
-1219
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
2,81%
G-P287
K2b

I13514
-1215
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
76,28%
n/a (female)
K1c1

I13513
-1215
GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lc
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
0,47%
n/a (sex unknown)
..

I13532
-1193
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
1,36%
n/a (female)
U3b1b

I13518
-1135
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
81,11%
R-PF7563
N1a1a1a3

I13506
-1135
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
20,12%
R-M269
..

I19364
-1135
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
12,16%
R-M269
X

I19368
-1010
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
Pylos, Palace of Nestor
Greece
37,026797
21,694586
10,73%
n/a (female)
U8b1a

I17959
-650
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
1,35%
J
J1c

I17960
-650
GRC_Anc_lc
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
0,63%
..
J1

I17962
-644
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38,399083
22,575
41,33%
T-S27463
U8b1b

I7833
340
GRC_Marathon_Rom
Vranas Marathon
Greece
38,122207
23,946392
80,92%
T-CTS3767
H

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Er_Monnezza: Thanks for the information on the Greeks. I took a look at the paper but I have not been able to get the Supplements yet. So 24 new Myceneans with the 4 from the Lazaridis et al 2017 paper gives us 28 Myceneans. Classical statistics suggest an N=30 should result in the distribution converging to a normal distribution so we should be able to get a much clear picture on the Myceneans.

----------


## eupator

Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:

1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!

2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.

3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, _"the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)"_. Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.

Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.

----------


## td120

Kind people came up with this :

Southern Arc Sample Information 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1315212964

----------


## enter_tain

> Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:
> 
> 1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!
> 
> 2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.
> 
> 3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, _"the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)"_. Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.
> 
> Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.


I'm going to go ahead and say (3) is completely wrong. Aromanians have relatively low levels of EV-13. The most dominant haplogroup is J.

----------


## eupator

> I'm going to go ahead and say (3) is completely wrong. Aromanians have relatively low levels of EV-13. The most dominant haplogroup is J.


Sure, can you link the source with the numbers I am very interested. Chalcocondyles naming Thracians (Dacians) as Vlachs seems a relevant point, no?

----------


## SandbagsIA

> I am not referring to all R1b, I am referring to this particular line Paternal Y-DNA: R1b- Z2705, you can look it up in y-full. It expanded in the last 1500 years somewhere in the western Balkans and some ended up in Morea. The question is not why is Albanian but when was Albanian and when become Greek. 
> The Albanian core male lines are very distinct because they come from a very small group of people, very easy to trace. 
> 
> Do you understand now?!!!!
> Why Idiocy Leo?!!! Isn’t this the way to track your ancestors?
> 
> Show as a better way Leo do not leave us in the Dark?


Ydna is irrelevant to ethnicities, even in Albania as in most places you have a diversity of lineages. Balkan populations were always both structured genetically and interacted with each other, to claim that "Y chromosome=ethnicity" even betrays an ignorance of what the Y chromosome is or does. Of course, there were movements from southern Albania to parts of Greece in the 1300s and abouts, however Greece just like Albania (to use simplistic terms so you can understand it) always have assimilated people from other regions of the Balkans, and also to some extent Anatolia. Many Arvanites fought for the Greek cause in 1821, so it's clear they identified as a certain ethnicity.
By your logic, any clade Mycenean samples have or will turn to have in the future automatically makes anyone north of Greece who has it Greek. It's obviously quite ridiculous.

Furthermore, do consider that most E1b diversity in the ancient (IA at least) was in modern-day Bulgaria, not Albania yet E-V13 is a very common haplogroup among Albanians today, clearly distinct from your R1b so at what point does X haplogroup belong to one ethnicity or the other?


On another note, about Illyrians and Macedonians and Thracians, if anyone reads ancient history we can quite clearly see Illyrians and Thracians being assimilated into ancient Greek culture, so did Anatolian peoples like Carians in Anatolia, in fact even the mother of the Athenian statesman Themistocles was likely of Thracian descent. Kimon is also supposed to descent from a Thracian king. The new paper even showed Myceneans as varying in Steppe ancestry so it's clear that cultural affiliation did not always closely follow genetics, even though most ancient Greeks likely had a Mycenean baseline of low Steppe, which would have been higher up north.

----------


## matadworf

Where exactly are the Macedonian samples from? I saw that there are several and only one has a Mycenean like profile (so far).

----------


## SandbagsIA

> Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:
> 
> 1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!
> 
> 2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.
> 
> 3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, _"the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)"_. Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.
> 
> Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.


Except of course Pontic clades not being majorly represented among mainland modern Greeks and E-V13 been found across much of West Asia, including areas of ancient Greek colonization but not of strong Byzantine presence (such as the Levant and parts of the West Med) 

We also see it in droves in Iron Age and ancient Bulgaria, hard to think that it only arrived in northern Greece in the 1500s

----------


## ihype02

The R1b in Kalymnos also seemed very Western and diverse. I assumed it was Italian/Venetian but now it seems more like Iron Age Greek.
Either it could a coincidence because the estimation was done based on a non academic project.

----------


## ihype02

> Where exactly are the Macedonian samples from? I saw that there are several and only one has a Mycenean like profile (so far).


And that is the only actual Macedonian we have so far. LOL

----------


## matadworf

Most of the Macedonian IA samples are from the North (Lake Ohrid) so how would they connect to Classical era Macedonians in the South (Pella,Pydna, Methoni). Don't know much about Macedon prior to 600 BC. I realize Macedon (during Classical pd) extended up to Illyrian border but Lake Ohrid would have been within the vicinity of Classical era Thracian Kingdom which extended pretty far West but what about prior to that during the Iron Age?

----------


## ihype02

There seem to be as much as nearly G2a as J2a in those samples. I always assumed that J2a would dominate in Greece as much as R1b does in Italy and J2b in Illyria. The sample numbers is still a bit low. 

Let me check the genetic profile of those samples. Could be sample bias.

----------


## bigsnake49

> I was trying to isolate mainly their ancient Greek admix. You cannot use both ancient Slavic and Balkan samples together to model ancient Greek ancestry. It simply doesnt work. I explained why many times why.
> 
> When you use Iron age balkan and and Medieval slavic or modern slavic samples to model Greeks sometimes it gives them just balkan instead of ancient Greek and other times it inflates the Slavic and gives no Balkan etc. It causes weird overfits. Even on qpAdm it causes high std errors so i need to use a proxy mixed between the 2.
> Modern samples are not a problem if they have the appropriate admixture. 
> 
> If i just use ancient samples on qpAdm to model ancient Greek ancestry then modern Greeks score 10% Mycenean since they require a proxy with higher CHG and Iran N than Anatolia BA. So all they get is Slavic + Anatolia BA + very little Mycenean. So if you keep insisting not to use modern samples that is what happens.
> 
> I have no choice but to use Armenians as a general West Asian Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because they are kinda mixed with Anatolia/Caucasus/Mesolotamia and Serbian for Iron age Balkan and Medieval Slavic.


I am sorry but just because the model messes up when you just use Mycenean+Slavic that does not mean that your current model is correct. Other scientists have made it work, why don't you ask them how they did it. Tell them that when you input their data into qpadmin you don't get the same results. Maybe they did something wrong or maybe you did.

----------


## eupator

> Except of course Pontic clades not being majorly represented among mainland modern Greeks and E-V13 been found across much of West Asia, including areas of ancient Greek colonization but not of strong Byzantine presence (such as the Levant and parts of the West Med) 
> 
> We also see it in droves in Iron Age and ancient Bulgaria, hard to think that it only arrived in northern Greece in the 1500s


1) Pontic clades, what?  :Thinking: 

2) The Vlach migrations are attested as early as the 10th and the 12th century in connection to Bulgarian presence also, not the 15th as you erroneously write.

3) If E-V13 is primarly connected to Daco-Thracians, it makes sense that it would have expanded into Asia Minor also as early as antiquity, however that doesn't make it ancient Greek. My commentary had more to do with the medieval bloom of the grouping that would associate it better with Vlachs than Thracians of antiquity, but of course the latter cannot be excluded. I am perplexed, are Thracians considered to be ancient Greeks now? Just so I can understand where certain commentary stems from.

I see Greek posters scrambling to damage control in connection to Macedonian and Thracian findings. Calm down, guys, it's just spitballin' at this stage.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> I am sorry but just because the model messes up when you just use Mycenean+Slavic that does not mean that your current model is correct. Other scientists have made it work, why don't you ask them how they did it. Tell them that when you input their data into qpadmin you don't get the same results. Maybe they did something wrong or maybe you did.


I am not talking about Mycenaean + Slavic, obviously such a model is completely false, Greeks are not just Mycenaean + Slavic but they also Balkan admix. I said models with Mycenaean + Slavic + Balkan don't work on both G25 because it causes random overfit shifts and also on qpAdm causes high STD errors. Also Anatolian/Caucasus related proxies are a must.

Also what other scientists? Their Mycenaean/empuries + Slavic models? Obviously unrealistic. Greeks also require an Anatolian/Caucasus proxy at least and still the model wouldn't be complete without estimating the Balkan ancestry too.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Greek samples from the new Southern Arc paper
> 
> Sample
> Date
> Analysis_Label
> Locality
> Country
> Lat.
> Long.
> ...


Well they are mostly Mycenaean samples. No samples from later eras? No samples from different Greek tribes? So the amateur speculation continues for another 10 years?

----------


## bigsnake49

> Most of the Macedonian IA samples are from the North (Lake Ohrid) so how would they connect to Classical era Macedonians in the South (Pella,Pydna, Methoni). Don't know much about Macedon prior to 600 BC. I realize Macedon (during Classical pd) extended up to Illyrian border but Lake Ohrid would have been within the vicinity of Classical era Thracian Kingdom which extended pretty far West but what about prior to that during the Iron Age?


Yeah, the Macedonians of classical antiquity were a pretty small tribe. Intermarriage with (remember Alexander the Great's father had 8 wives) and conquest of neighboring areas expanded their holdings tremendously. It would be nice to see some samples from their original domain and hopefully not of royal blood (because of intermarriage).

----------


## eupator

I am going to try to break down my original thought about Thracian E-V13 because my wording might have been too abstract.

If E-V13 is a Thracian, and thus Dacian, marker then its great presence in modern Greek demographics has to do with the fact that the former have had great success in expanding over peninsular Greece, Vlachs being named as Dacians explicitly in historical accords, and also providing a good explanation for the big chunk of what is referred as "Paleo-Balkanic" admixture.

Modern Greeks look to be as much Balkanic (Thracian or related), or at least in the ballpark, as the qpadm models suggested by poster idontknowhatiamdoing.

----------


## ihype02

Look: Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotes are into in Aegean Cluster. They could've had a bit more steppe than Ancient Peloponnesians in direction of (closer to) Sicilians but that is it. In the leaked PCA we had weeks or months ago this new Aegean Cluster overlaps the old one from 2017.


Also most Anatolian Greek polises seem to be from Hellenistic era. I do not doubt that Ionians of Anatolia had Carian admixture but after the Alexander expansions many of those cities became major ports with new waves of Anatolians in there. Some were even abandoned during the Persian expansions. This is not the best representation I could think of. They should've left this topic for an other time.

----------


## bigsnake49

We still don't have enough samples for different eras from Greece proper to definitely say anything except the Mycenaean era and the Mycenaean area and the Kastrouli area. The rest of eras and areas will be shrouded in darkness.

----------


## ihype02

> I am going to try to break down my original thought about Thracian E-V13 because my wording might have been too abstract.
> 
> If E-V13 is a Thracian, and thus Dacian, marker then its great presence in modern Greek demographics has to do with the fact that the former have had great success in expanding over peninsular Greece, Vlachs being named as Dacians explicitly in historical accords, and also providing a good explanation for the big chunk of what is referred as "Paleo-Balkanic" admixture.
> 
> Modern Greeks look to be as much Balkanic (Thracian or related), or at least in the ballpark, as the qpadm models suggested by poster idontknowhatiamdoing.


I think Slavs brought in Peloponnese and to a lesser extend Arvanites. I cannot rule some ancient assimilated Ancient Thracians. 

Goths in Iberia showed high E-V13 (25% to 30%) that they picked in the Balkans. Maybe the same will turn true in Peloponnese.

----------


## blevins13

> Ydna is irrelevant to ethnicities, even in Albania as in most places you have a diversity of lineages. Balkan populations were always both structured genetically and interacted with each other, to claim that "Y chromosome=ethnicity" even betrays an ignorance of what the Y chromosome is or does. Of course, there were movements from southern Albania to parts of Greece in the 1300s and abouts, however Greece just like Albania (to use simplistic terms so you can understand it) always have assimilated people from other regions of the Balkans, and also to some extent Anatolia. Many Arvanites fought for the Greek cause in 1821, so it's clear they identified as a certain ethnicity.
> By your logic, any clade Mycenean samples have or will turn to have in the future automatically makes anyone north of Greece who has it Greek. It's obviously quite ridiculous.
> 
> Furthermore, do consider that most E1b diversity in the ancient (IA at least) was in modern-day Bulgaria, not Albania yet E-V13 is a very common haplogroup among Albanians today, clearly distinct from your R1b so at what point does X haplogroup belong to one ethnicity or the other?
> 
> 
> On another note, about Illyrians and Macedonians and Thracians, if anyone reads ancient history we can quite clearly see Illyrians and Thracians being assimilated into ancient Greek culture, so did Anatolian peoples like Carians in Anatolia, in fact even the mother of the Athenian statesman Themistocles was likely of Thracian descent. Kimon is also supposed to descent from a Thracian king. The new paper even showed Myceneans as varying in Steppe ancestry so it's clear that cultural affiliation did not always closely follow genetics, even though most ancient Greeks likely had a Mycenean baseline of low Steppe, which would have been higher up north.


You still don’t get it, I am not sure why?
I never said this: to claim that "Y chromosome=ethnicity" 

I said this:

The questions of identity and ethnicity depends on "which Y-DNA branch?" and "when?". In my case, if when = now, I'd say an Albanian in naturalization process to become US citizen. If when = 1800 on my paternal line, I'd say an Albanian Highlander from Laberia. If when = 1000 then a highlander from Malesia e Madhe. In the Roman era, somewhere in the western Balkans. If 6,000 years ago somewhere in Ukraine. And if when = 70,000 years ago or before, then my ancestors were African hunter-gatherers, like all of us.

So basically, my line has been part of the Yamnaya Culture, part of Paleo Balkans Culture, than Albanian, and now American. “When” defines at what time my ancestors have been part of each culture based on their y- DNA.A different y-DNA will have a different path through cultures and History. 

Now sub-branches of My Dna might show up in Greece and now they are part of the Greek Culture and/or Ethnicity. But when the spilt from our common ancestor 500 years ago they were part of the Albanian culture and Ethnicity.

This is my last post for this. I am surprised that you don’t understand it, if you had searched for your ancestors, this is the first thing you will realize. 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Angela

> I am going to try to break down my original thought about Thracian E-V13 because my wording might have been too abstract.
> 
> If E-V13 is a Thracian, and thus Dacian, marker then its great presence in modern Greek demographics has to do with the fact that the former have had great success in expanding over peninsular Greece, Vlachs being named as Dacians explicitly in historical accords, and also providing a good explanation for the big chunk of what is referred as "Paleo-Balkanic" admixture.
> 
> Modern Greeks look to be as much Balkanic (Thracian or related), or at least in the ballpark, as the qpadm models suggested by poster idontknowhatiamdoing.


I think we've seen enough from ancient dna to know that drawing big conclusions about the relationship between yDna and autosomal composition is extremely problematic. 

The carriers of that y line might have provided some important service which spread their yDna but not necessarily all that much autosomal dna.

----------


## Dianatomia

> 1) 
> 
> 3) If E-V13 is primarly connected to Daco-Thracians, it makes sense that it would have expanded into Asia Minor also as early as antiquity, however that doesn't make it ancient Greek.


It is fair to say that the Greek ethnos is ever evolving. I think you fail to see that by your standards many Ancient Greeks would not qualify as Greek. This perspective does not do historical justice. In that case we would have to speak of Homer being Achaean+Carrian, and Phillip of Macedon being Achaean+paleo-Balkan. Just to cherry pick some hypothetical examples.

----------


## eupator

> It is fair to say that the Greek ethnos is ever evolving.



I agree with your take.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> We still don't have enough samples for different eras from Greece proper to definitely say anything except the Mycenaean era and the Mycenaean area and the Kastrouli area. The rest of eras and areas will be shrouded in darkness.


Completely agree. Like what accounts for E-V13 in places where Vlachs and Albanians didn’t migrate to, or did in small numbers perhaps? Hopefully new studies will start coming out (but not counting on it). Biomuse has ancient and medieval Greek samples.

----------


## Angela

All ethnicities are constantly evolving. Look at France and even Sweden. Look at the U.S. It's a rather banal view of Greek history. 

It doesn't change the fact that much as some of you would like to deny it, people on the outskirts of Mycenaean and Classical Era Greek civilization may have absorbed the culture, but their genetics were different, and the people of the Greek mainland and perhaps particularly the Greek islands, carry more of their ancestry than the people of those peripheral regions. It's just fact, imo.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I am going to try to break down my original thought about Thracian E-V13 because my wording might have been too abstract.
> 
> If E-V13 is a Thracian, and thus Dacian, marker then its great presence in modern Greek demographics has to do with the fact that the former have had great success in expanding over peninsular Greece, Vlachs being named as Dacians explicitly in historical accords, and also providing a good explanation for the big chunk of what is referred as "Paleo-Balkanic" admixture.
> 
> Modern Greeks look to be as much Balkanic (Thracian or related), or at least in the ballpark, as the qpadm models suggested by poster idontknowhatiamdoing.



I fully understand what you mean, just as I fully understand the association between Illyrians and J2b-L283. Undoubtedly, especially between the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age, there will be markers more frequent than others in the various ethnic groups, but for me it is still wrong to attribute an ethnic identity to uniparental markers that were formed long before the Iron Age ethnic groups.

----------


## Kuivamaa

> Completely agree. Like what accounts for E-V13 in places where Vlachs and Albanians didn’t migrate to, or did in small numbers perhaps? Hopefully new studies will start coming out (but not counting on it). Biomuse has ancient and medieval Greek samples.


We have relarively recent archaeological findings of some big sites that have helped historians shed some light to the time around the end of “Greek dark age” (750BCE). We are talking about Doric settlements. Here is a particularly interesting Cretan one. 
https://mae.uoc.gr/el/
https://www.thetoc.gr/politismos/art...a-omirika-epi/

I hope there is dna that can be salvaged from those burials.

----------


## Angela

> I fully understand what you mean, just as I fully understand the association between Illyrians and J2b-L283. Undoubtedly, especially between the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age, there will be markers more frequent than others in the various ethnic groups, but for me it is still wrong to attribute an ethnic identity to uniparental markers that were formed long before the Iron Age ethnic groups.


Sorry, out of juice, but completely agree.

----------


## ihype02

> Completely agree. Like what accounts for E-V13 in places where Vlachs and Albanians didn’t migrate to, or did in small numbers perhaps? Hopefully new studies will start coming out (but not counting on it). Biomuse has ancient and medieval Greek samples.


Greek Thracians and Macedonians seem to have higher I2a and R1a than E-V13. 

E-V13 is around 25% in Peloponnese. But in other parts of Greece we don't have much data. 
I doubt this line is dominant as it seems. 

J2a's decrease seem to be a production of multiply migrations not just E-V13.

----------


## enter_tain

> Most of the Macedonian IA samples are from the North (Lake Ohrid) so how would they connect to Classical era Macedonians in the South (Pella,Pydna, Methoni). Don't know much about Macedon prior to 600 BC. I realize Macedon (during Classical pd) extended up to Illyrian border but Lake Ohrid would have been within the vicinity of Classical era Thracian Kingdom which extended pretty far West but what about prior to that during the Iron Age?


I don't know why people expected otherwise. Look at Alexander the Great. His mother was Epirote, his grandmother was Illyrian or from Lynkestis (these people here). 75% of his DNA came near or from the territory of modern Albania. So why is it a surprise that his countrymen clustered with Iron Age Albania?

No one denies that Macedonians, at least Upper (western) Macedonians, absorbed or converted Illyrians within it. Even in Greek history, the legendary ethos of Macedonians is 3 brothers travelled from Greece through Illyria.

----------


## enter_tain

I love thought.co's little historical summaries about the Balkans. They're always succinct and to the point.

"The Illyrians carried on commerce and warfare with their neighbors. The ancient Macedonians probably had some Illyrian roots, but their ruling class adopted Greek cultural characteristics"

This is a view shared by many historians.

----------


## Hawk

> Completely agree. Like what accounts for E-V13 in places where Vlachs and Albanians didn’t migrate to, or did in small numbers perhaps? Hopefully new studies will start coming out (but not counting on it). Biomuse has ancient and medieval Greek samples.


After Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age there is archaeological record of Eastern Urnfielders reaching Greece, especially Eastern Greece. Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 samples archaeologically are considered Eastern Hallstattian. And isn't it a surprise those remains in pits are not even regular burials, but irregular, because the common people cremated their deaths. These are the same people who archaeologists classified them as Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex and participated in the so called Aegean migrations during Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age. They were one of the earliest massive iron producers. The Naue II sword of the type Reutlingen was their invention and weapon of choice.

The admixture of Barbarian-Ware/Knobbed-Ware was discussed for decades, Eastern Urnfielders/Eastern Hallstattians. https://www.jstor.org/stable/501689

There is a problem though, these people preferred cremation during Early Iron Age, we need some Classical Greek samples, more of it to make sense, if E-V13 appears then that will be totally clarified. If not, then it is what it is.

One E-L618/E-V13 already appears in one Ancient Macedonian site:




> Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis
> Excavations were carried out from 2008 to 2012 under the auspices of the Cultural Heritage
> Protection Office and the Museum of Macedonia. Due to its long-term use stretching over
> several periods this necropolis comprised both inhumation and cremation graves of which 3500
> were investigated. They were of different manufacture such as stone cist tombs, simple
> rectangular pits, burials under small tumuli, burials in rock chambers, in urns, and free cremation
> burials (Fig. S 19).


During Mycenean times cremation burials were almost non-existent.

At the end, i wouldn't be surprised if E-V13 is solely Thracian Y-DNA, ancient authors considered them to be the most numerous people in ancient Europe along with Gallo-Celtic people.

At the end, we need to ask ourselves, the Urnfield Culture affected the South/East Balkans heavily, and there must have been a mediator to do so. If not E-V13, then it must have been some other lineage. But, to my knowledge no other Y-DNA or subclade of it fulfills better than E-V13 that requirement. As for Arvanites and Vlachs, that argument is not so convincing to me, how come people that barely reach 15-20% of E-V13 contribute to 20-30% of E-V13 country-wise?! Peloponessus has even more of it.

If, this theory holds water, then the initial Barbarian-Ware/Eastern Urnfielder invaders, during classical age were Hellenized and incorporated into the Hellenic Culture by the recovering Mycenaean descendants. More Classical Age samples will settle this down once and forever.

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> Calculator Source:
> 
> 
> ```
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
> 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
> 
> 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
> 
> ...


Heatmaps illustrating relative distances to modern populations:

----------


## Pax Augusta

For Italy these maps are a bit worthless, because the modern Italian G25 samples are incomplete, especially for northern Italy. There are no samples from the Po Valley, which is the most densely populated area in northern Italy.

----------


## Angela

> Kind people came up with this :
> 
> Southern Arc Sample Information 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1315212964


I'm out of juice, but thanks a lot. I couldn't quickly locate that information.

----------


## Angela

> For Italy these maps are a bit worthless, because the modern Italian G25 samples are incomplete, especially for northern Italy. There are no samples from the Po Valley, which is the most densely populated area in northern Italy.


Always with the damn G25. When are people going to get that it's deeply flawed? So far as I know there is no sample for Emilia, but yeah, it's accurate.

----------


## Angela

I figured this is the right thread in which to ask the question.

Of all the Southern Arc samples, according to K12b I'm "reasonably" close to MK "ancient", which is not so ancient, as it seems to be first millennium BC, and MN (Montenegro area) which is about 2-4 hundred years earlier.

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> Always with the damn G25. When are people going to get that it's deeply flawed? So far as I know there is no sample for Emilia, but yeah, it's accurate.


These are the coordinates for Emilia:



```
emilia-romagna,0.112685,0.146236,0.02753,-0.012597,0.020927,-0.004183,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.009817,0.019499,-0.001461,0.004496,-0.011744,-0.009909,0.001764,0.010209,0.018906,-0.003421,0.014958,-0.004752,-0.008111,0.004204,0.003944,-0.003494,0.006826
```

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> For Italy these maps are a bit worthless, because the modern Italian G25 samples are incomplete, especially for northern Italy. There are no samples from the Po Valley, which is the most densely populated area in northern Italy.


I don't understand. If you look at the map it's actually more granular than that (has coordinates for multiple regions which make up Po Valley).

----------


## bigsnake49

> I figured this is the right thread in which to ask the question.
> 
> Of all the Southern Arc samples, according to K12b I'm "reasonably" close to MK "ancient", which is not so ancient, as it seems to be first millennium BC, and MN (Montenegro area) which is about 2-4 hundred years earlier.


So what's the question?

----------


## Angela

> So what's the question?


I must have gotten distracted. :)

Were they found in what is today North Macedonia, or over the border into northern Greece? I couldn't tell from the map. What do we know about the cultures in that area during that particular period? 

What about the MD samples from around 1200-1400 B.C. What do we know about them?

I'm assuming this is again a situation where perhaps similar steppe admixed people split and one group went down into the Balkans and another into Italy. I see that Torzio is even closer than Stuvane and me, so perhaps the further from the split, the further the distance.

----------


## mount123

> I must have gotten distracted. :)
> 
> Were they found in what is today North Macedonia, or over the border into northern Greece? I couldn't tell from the map. What do we know about the cultures in that area during that particular period? 
> 
> What about the MD samples from around 1200-1400 B.C. What do we know about them?
> 
> I'm assuming this is again a situation where perhaps similar steppe admixed people split and one group went down into the Balkans and another into Italy. I see that Torzio is even closer than Stuvane and me, so perhaps the further from the split, the further the distance.


Your closest Montenegro_LBA sample is from the Velika Gruda Centina tumuli, actually late phase Cetina, Proto-Illyrian Dinaric culture tumuli.

Distance to:
I13775_MNE_LBA_VelikaGruda_1450-1250BCE(J2b-L283>Z638>Z2197)

0.02516417
French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208

0.02655097
Italian_Veneto:ALP209

0.02727281
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149

0.02757824
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155

0.02832138
Italian_Lombardy:ALP288

0.02888427
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153

0.02905061
Italian_Tuscany:NA20505

0.02910195
Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127

0.02919869
Italian_Tuscany:Tuscany27

0.02933204
Italian_Veneto:ALP116

0.02947330
Italian_Veneto:KF1800772

0.02953398
Italian_Tuscany:VO65

0.02966241
Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61

0.03001279
Italian_Tuscany:NA20502

0.03014027
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200

0.03023620
Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152

0.03039707
Albanian:AL12



I think the North Macedonian IA samples were mostly from the Ulanci group which are considered Paeonian.

----------


## matadworf

> It's very possible that the reason of why don't Peloponnesian genetics fit this "Slavs expelled-Greeks from Anatolia&Italy came" story is that a great part of modern Peloponnesians don't descend from the Byzantine ones but are instead later internal migrants from other mainland parts like Central Greece, Thessaly & Epirus ,so no matter what was the situation back then and if these kind of movements had impact or not, it's irrelevant for the moderns.


I totally agree with you particularly as I dig deeper into my own family history.

----------


## matadworf

> Your closest Montenegro_LBA sample is from the Velika Gruda Centina tumuli, actually late phase Cetina, Proto-Illyrian Dinaric culture tumuli.
> 
> Distance to:
> I13775_MNE_LBA_VelikaGruda_1450-1250BCE(J2b-L283>Z638>Z2197)
> 
> 0.02516417
> French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
> 
> 0.02655097
> ...


Any insights on the MKD Anc and MKD BA samples?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> These are the coordinates for Emilia:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> emilia-romagna,0.112685,0.146236,0.02753,-0.012597,0.020927,-0.004183,-0.002115,-0.000462,0.009817,0.019499,-0.001461,0.004496,-0.011744,-0.009909,0.001764,0.010209,0.018906,-0.003421,0.014958,-0.004752,-0.008111,0.004204,0.003944,-0.003494,0.006826
> ```


These at most are simulated coordinates for Emilia-Romagna. If simulated ones were used, then all simulated ones should be used. This discussion has already taken place, why is it being repeated?

----------


## mount123

> Your closest Montenegro_LBA sample is from the Velika Gruda Centina tumuli, actually late phase Cetina, Proto-Illyrian Dinaric culture tumuli.
> 
> Distance to:
> I13775_MNE_LBA_VelikaGruda_1450-1250BCE(J2b-L283>Z638>Z2197)
> 
> 0.02516417
> French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
> 
> 0.02655097
> ...


Belated disclaimer: no super fan of G25 coordinates, used them primarily because at the time I posted these I only had access to G25 coordinates of the southern arc paper samples. But I see Salento has a collection of K12b.

----------


## mount123

> Any insights on the MKD Anc and MKD BA samples?


The MKD "Anc" samples are essentially IA or younger IA samples I think. The BA sample is from Ulanci and the Anc samples mostly from Marvinci. There is also samples from Govrlevo and Bucinci.

The k12b coords Salento provided:



```
MKD_Anc_outlier1:I10392,12.22,0,3.1,0,13.4,2.42,0.02,0.41,25.24,0.28,42.8,0.12
MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167,9.3,0,0,0,21.3,18.83,0,0,10.12,0.67,39.27,0.51
MKD_Anc:I10166,6.14,0,2.37,0,59.06,6.27,0.26,0,11.85,2.46,11.59,0
MKD_Anc:I10377,2.31,0,0,0,38.3,26.3,0,0,6.92,0,26.18,0
MKD_Anc:I10378,9.78,0,2.28,0,52.31,10.07,0,0,9.84,0,15.71,0
MKD_Anc:I10379,2.64,0,0,0.56,36.28,21.83,0.43,0,6.18,0,31.64,0.44
MKD_Anc:I10381,2.43,0,0,0,39.45,22.78,0,0,3.37,0.13,31.05,0.8
MKD_Anc:I10382,9.4,3.63,0,0,30.09,23.6,0,0,8.43,0,24.86,0
MKD_Anc:I10383,4.52,0,0.61,0,38.57,22.83,0,0,5.34,1.71,26.31,0.1
MKD_Anc:I10384,6.36,0,0,0,35.07,25.95,0,0,6.47,0,25.77,0.38
MKD_Anc:I10385,9.91,0.1,0,0,34.29,24.6,0,0,3.81,0,26.43,0.86
MKD_Anc:I10387,6.28,0.59,3.21,0,39.74,16.18,1.55,0,6.27,0,25.49,0.69
MKD_Anc:I10388,3.48,0.06,2.4,0,36.61,21.67,0,0,8.65,0,27.01,0.12
MKD_Anc:I10389,4.3,0.33,0,0.22,30.42,22.23,0,0,7.68,0,33.61,1.23
MKD_Anc:I10390,3.11,0.29,2.3,0,37.87,20,0,0,8.1,0,28.11,0.22
MKD_Anc:I10391,3.4,0,3.06,0,36.19,19.93,0,0,8.3,0.54,28.36,0.21
MKD_Anc:I7233,1.76,0,1.89,0,37.36,14.79,0,0,9.99,0.16,33.64,0.4
MKD_Anc:I8112,6.08,0.05,0.52,0,36.05,23.93,0,0,6.95,0.66,25.37,0.38
MKD_BA_lc:I10168,0,0,0,0,16.62,38.96,1.53,0,25.15,0,17.74,0
MKD_BA_lc:I10171,2.4,0,0,0,20.79,0,0,0,32.11,14.11,30.6,0
MKD_BA:I7231,3.72,0.62,1.06,0,34.77,21.27,0,0,8.02,0,30.31,0.22
MKD_IA_lc:I10380,3.95,0,12.4,4.27,52.2,12.95,1.82,0,7.19,0,0,5.23
MKD_Mdv:I2530,4.84,0.74,0,0.49,25.57,38.33,0,2.24,4.87,0.82,22.09,0
MKD_N:I3881,0,0,0,0,54.95,0,0,0,10.36,0,34.7,0
```

----------


## matadworf

> The MKD "Anc" samples are essentially IA or younger IA samples I think. The BA sample is from Ulanci and the Anc samples mostly from Marvinci. There is also samples from Govrlevo and Bucinci.
> 
> The k12b coords Salento provided:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> MKD_Anc_outlier1:I10392,12.22,0,3.1,0,13.4,2.42,0.02,0.41,25.24,0.28,42.8,0.12
> MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167,9.3,0,0,0,21.3,18.83,0,0,10.12,0.67,39.27,0.51
> ...


Much appreciated!

----------


## Angela

> Your closest Montenegro_LBA sample is from the Velika Gruda Centina tumuli, actually late phase Cetina, Proto-Illyrian Dinaric culture tumuli.
> 
> Distance to:
> I13775_MNE_LBA_VelikaGruda_1450-1250BCE(J2b-L283>Z638>Z2197)
> 
> 0.02516417
> French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
> 
> 0.02655097
> ...


 Do you mean Pannonian?

----------


## mount123

> Do you mean Pannonian?


No, I did actually mean *Paeonians*. Pannonians would be from the Pannonian basin. There were also "outlier" profiles in the MKD samples set but not sure how they plotted, one was, I think more Mycenean like or something. The MKD IA cluster from Marvinci sits between Thracians/ Myceneans and the more north western located Illyrian cluster. There is some minor overlapping however.

Disclaimer: linked that article just for locating these people on the map. Wikipedia is of course not a reliable academic source  :Embarassed:

----------


## Angela

> No, I did actually mean *Paeonians*. Pannonians would be from the Pannonian basin. There were also "outlier" profiles in the MKD samples set but not sure how they plotted, one was, I think more Mycenean like or something. The MKD IA cluster from Marvinci sits between Thracians/ Myceneans and the more north western located Illyrian cluster. There is some minor overlapping however.
> 
> Disclaimer: linked that article just for locating these people on the map. Wikipedia is of course not a reliable academic source


So, from an area in modern North Macedonia.

The closest MKD samples to me are the ones labeled "ancient":

3.96764414
MKD_Anc:I10387

4.54598724
MKD_Anc:I1039



The closest one from the coast:
4.78524816
MNE_LBA:I13167



After that I don't pay much attention.

Oracle:
0.46990874
77.80% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_Menteşe_N:I0724

0.83739847
75.40% MNE_LBA:I13775 + 24.60% ROU_N:I0739

----------


## Dorian9

> I totally agree with you particularly as I dig deeper into my own family history.


Good to know ,I myself haven't managed to do so but I suspect similar stories for my Messinain side .Did you figure out anything new since your last reply?

----------


## matadworf

> Good to know ,I myself haven't managed to do so but I suspect similar stories for my Messinain side .Did you figure out anything new since your last reply?


Nothing new only that my paternal Messinian side (both grandparents) families came from two mountain villages in Arcadia (late 17th c) adjacent to one another Alonistana and Roino. I've talked to someone about the history of those villages and it seems that they may have been settled by folks from Northern Greece. Many years ago my dad told me his mother (who was born in 1890) used to say that they had Epirote origins so who knows.

----------


## eupator

To the poster who said that Myceneans on average are closer to the Bulgarian samples than to Anatolia, that's not really the case, although they seem to be close to the KapitanAndreevo_IA, but Alalakh is still closer. 



```

fst(prefix, pop1 = "GRC_Mycenaean_BA", pop2 = c("GRC_Logkas_MBA", "BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA", "BGR_TellKran_EBA", "BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA", "TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA", "TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA", "BGR_Smyadovo_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_MLBA", "BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA", "BGR_Diamandievo_IA", "BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA", "BGR_Boyanovo_EBA"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 91 samples in 14 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 276 MB
1233k SNPs read...
✔ 1233013 SNPs read in total
! 41075 SNPs remain after filtering. 33781 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 41075 SNPs and 14 populations is 8 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 212 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 212 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Returning fst blocks
# A tibble: 13 × 4
   pop1             pop2                      est       se
   <chr>            <chr>                   <dbl>    <dbl>
 1 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA    0.522  0.00224 
 2 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Boyanovo_EBA       0.434  0.00262 
 3 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Diamandievo_IA     0.536  0.00223 
 4 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA   0.215  0.00267 
 5 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA 0.0888 0.00132 
 6 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_EBA     0.539  0.00212 
 7 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_MLBA    0.543  0.00219 
 8 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Smyadovo_EBA       0.325  0.00288 
 9 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA     0.314  0.00268 
10 GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_TellKran_EBA       0.205  0.00233 
11 GRC_Mycenaean_BA GRC_Logkas_MBA         0.212  0.00262 
12 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA   0.123  0.00180 
13 GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA 0.0595 0.000941
```

----------


## ihype02

> To the poster who said that Myceneans on average are closer to the Bulgarian samples than to Anatolia, that's not really the case, although they seem to be close to the KapitanAndreevo_IA, but Alalakh is still closer. 
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> 
> fst(prefix, pop1 = "GRC_Mycenaean_BA", pop2 = c("GRC_Logkas_MBA", "BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA", "BGR_TellKran_EBA", "BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA", "TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA", "TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA", "BGR_Smyadovo_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_EBA", "BGR_Merichleri_MLBA", "BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA", "BGR_Diamandievo_IA", "BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA", "BGR_Boyanovo_EBA"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
> ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
> ℹ SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
> ...


Iron Age Bulgarian samples. The genetic ethnogenesis of Mycenaeans and Thracians was not yet created in MBA and EBA.
Also Western Byzantine Anatolians had some Euro admixture.

----------


## eupator

> Iron Age Bulgarian samples. The genetic ethnogenesis of Mycenaeans and Thracians was not yet created in MBA and EBA.
> Also Western Byzantine Anatolians had some Euro admixture.



I included the BGR_IA southern arc samples, Alalakh_MLBA is still closer, check again.

----------


## eupator

Also, don't take it the wrong way but please don't post g25 crap as some sort of rebuttal when I present you with fst distances straight from the source provided by the authors.

Your methodology is bs and your conclusions based on it false.

----------


## ihype02

> Also, don't take it the wrong way but please don't post g25 crap as some sort of rebuttal when I present you with fst distances straight from the source provided by the authors.
> 
> Your methodology is bs and your conclusions based on it false.


It is a leaked academic PCA not something from G25.

----------


## eupator

> It is a leaked academic PCA not something from G25.



OK, I looked at it again and there's no Myceneans nor Anatolia_BA on it unless I am blind.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> I included the BGR_IA southern arc samples, Alalakh_MLBA is still closer, check again.


So this is the order, from closest to farthest?



```
GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_Hatay_Alalakh_MLBA 0.0595 0.000941
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA 0.0888 0.00132
GRC_Mycenaean_BA TUR_E_Arslantepe_EBA   0.123  0.00180
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_TellKran_EBA       0.205  0.00233
GRC_Mycenaean_BA GRC_Logkas_MBA         0.212  0.00262
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_EBA   0.215  0.00267
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA     0.314  0.00268
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Smyadovo_EBA       0.325  0.00288
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Boyanovo_EBA       0.434  0.00262
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA    0.522  0.00224
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Diamandievo_IA     0.536  0.00223
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_EBA     0.539  0.00212
GRC_Mycenaean_BA BGR_Merichleri_MLBA    0.543  0.00219
```

If I had said that Mycenaeans were more akin to a Levantine population like Alalakh_MLBA than to Thracians, half the forum would have lynched me and called me a "t-roll" XD




> Also, don't take it the wrong way but please don't post g25 crap as some sort of rebuttal when I present you with fst distances straight from the source provided by the authors.
> 
> Your methodology is bs and your conclusions based on it false.


For heaven's sake though, the tool that produces results that make the most sense should be used, no matter what it is. And Global25 distances make more sense.

Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean_BA

0.02295970
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA

0.09308855
TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

----------


## eupator

I am not commenting on g25, when it becomes open source and verifiable I'll look at it again.

Until then, you can believe what you want in your little cult.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> I am not commenting on g25, when it becomes open source and verifiable I'll look at it again.
> 
> Until then, you can believe what you want in your little cult.


It is not a cult at all, if Global25 had shown distances like the ones you listed above I would have abandoned it long ago precisely because they were too far-fetched.

----------


## eupator

> It is not a cult at all, if Global25 had shown distances like the ones you listed above I would have abandoned it long ago precisely because they were too far-fetched.



I reproduced the qpadm run they had for Myceneans with KapitanAndreevo, here is the whole thing if anyone wants to verify:



```
left=c("TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N","ISR_Feldman_PPNB", "SRB_Iron_Gates_HG", "EHG", "CHG")
> right=c("Mbuti.DG","IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N","ISR_Natufian_EpiP","MAR_Taforalt_EpiP","RUS_AfontovaGora3","RUS_MA1_HG","TUR_Pınarbaşı_EpiP", "WHG")
> target=c("BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA")
> mypops=c("Mbuti.DG","IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N","ISR_Natufian_EpiP","MAR_Taforalt_EpiP","RUS_AfontovaGora3","RUS_MA1_HG","TUR_Pınarbaşı_EpiP", "WHG","BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA","TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N","TUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN","ISR_Feldman_PPNB", "SRB_Iron_Gates_HG", "EHG", "CHG")
> 
> extract_f2(prefix, my_f2_dir, pops = mypops, overwrite = TRUE, maxmiss = 1)
ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
ℹ SouthernArc_Public.geno has 5940 samples and 1233013 SNPs
ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 107 samples in 15 populations
ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 286 MB
1233k SNPs read...
✔ 1233013 SNPs read in total
! 1150639 SNPs remain after filtering. 1015685 are polymorphic.
ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 1150639 SNPs and 15 populations is 221 MB
ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 6627 MB RAM without splitting
ℹ Computing without splitting since 6627 < 8000 (maxmem)...
ℹ Data written to C:\Users\eptr\Documents\SouthernArc_Public\my_f2_dir_eptr/
> f2_blocks = f2_from_precomp(my_f2_dir, pops = mypops, afprod = TRUE)
ℹ Reading precomputed data for 15 populations...
ℹ Reading ap data for pair 120 out of 120...
.
.
.
```


And these are the results:



```
results = qpadm(prefix, left, right, target, allsnps = TRUE)
ℹ Reading metadata...
ℹ Computing block lengths for 1150639 SNPs...
ℹ Computing 35 f4-statistics for block 713 out of 713...
ℹ "allsnps = TRUE" uses different SNPs for each f4-statistic
  Number of SNPs used for each f4-statistic:
.
.
.
results$weights
# A tibble: 5 × 5
  target                 left                 weight     se     z
  <chr>                  <chr>                 <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N 0.621  0.0598 10.4 
2 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA ISR_Feldman_PPNB     0.0723 0.0508  1.42
3 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA SRB_Iron_Gates_HG    0.0572 0.0110  5.18
4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA EHG                  0.0561 0.0154  3.65
5 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA CHG                  0.194  0.0204  9.51
> results$popdrop
# A tibble: 31 × 16
   pat      wt   dof  chisq        p f4rank TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N
   <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>                <dbl>
 1 00000     0     3   3.56 3.13e- 1      4                0.621
.
.
.
```

You can see even BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA also scores PPNB (7.23%) and high CHG (19.4%) with a robust p-value (0.313) and that's why the fst distances show such proximity in my post above.

This is a result your platform fails to capture and reproduce because it's either crap or tweaked this way, or both.

As such it cannot be used to dispute anything presented in the paper that is easily reproduced with the open source tools the authors use themselves following their methodology.

This is my absolutely last post concerning g25 shennanigans.

----------


## Angela

I swear I've never seen so much tunnel vision thinking in my life.

Alalakh is right on the border between Anatolian and Syria, a Neolithic farmer population came precisely from the area.

Even if the analysis were correct, how would we know if this person was actually from further north in Anatolia rather than further south from the Levant proper.

No wonder the people from Anthrogenica have gotten so many things wrong.

----------


## matadworf

> I reproduced the qpadm run they had for Myceneans with KapitanAndreevo, here is the whole thing if anyone wants to verify:
> 
> 
> ```
> left=c("TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N","ISR_Feldman_PPNB", "SRB_Iron_Gates_HG", "EHG", "CHG")
> > right=c("Mbuti.DG","IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N","ISR_Natufian_EpiP","MAR_Taforalt_EpiP","RUS_AfontovaGora3","RUS_MA1_HG","TUR_Pınarbaşı_EpiP", "WHG")
> > target=c("BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA")
> > mypops=c("Mbuti.DG","IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N","ISR_Natufian_EpiP","MAR_Taforalt_EpiP","RUS_AfontovaGora3","RUS_MA1_HG","TUR_Pınarbaşı_EpiP", "WHG","BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA","TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N","TUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN","ISR_Feldman_PPNB", "SRB_Iron_Gates_HG", "EHG", "CHG")
> > 
> ...


Ok I agree G 25 has its faults but why is that when I compare my results to other Greeks I get Messinian with G 25 as my number one population at a distance of 1.9 compared to gedmatch calcs which give me Thessaly, Central Greece or Albania at 3.75. The other issue I have with Dodecad (as an example) is the ancestral components; Gedrosia? SW Asia? Atlantic, North Europe, Caucasus how are they determined and what do they mean? When I compare my Dodecad results (as an example with new samples) to G 25 they’re pretty much the same but at greater distances so maybe when all is said and done there isn’t much difference.

----------


## ihype02

> OK, I looked at it again and there's no Myceneans nor Anatolia_BA on it unless I am blind.


Aegean BA refers to Mycenaeans. And I doubt Anatolia BA will be very different to the Byzantine one maybe only a little less Western.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> You can see even BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA also scores PPNB (7.23%) and high CHG (19.4%) with a robust p-value (0.313) and that's why the fst distances show such proximity in my post above.


When Iran_N is not included, a similar percentage also comes out on Global25 (5.8% Levant_PNB). But that still does not justify the allegedly close proximity between Mycenaean or Kapitan Andreevo and Alalakh.




> This is a result your platform fails to capture and reproduce because it's either crap or tweaked this way, or both.
> 
> As such it cannot be used to dispute anything presented in the paper that is easily reproduced with the open source tools the authors use themselves following their methodology.
> 
> This is my absolutely last post concerning g25 shennanigans.


Luckily, "my" platform would never reproduce shitty results like these, taken directly from the paper.

Etruscan_Tarquinia = CHG 14.45%, EHG 9.87%, Levant_PPN 5.94%, SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 13.57%, TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N 56.19%

Imagine then using these results to prove a very recent connection between the Etruscans and West Asia. The paper did the same with Yamnaya by claiming non-existent Levantine admixture.




> Even if the analysis were correct, how would we know if this person was actually from further north in Anatolia rather than further south from the Levant proper.


If you are referring to Alalakh_MLBA, that average is fully North Levantine and clusters close to EMBA Syrians from Ebla.

Closest averages on G25

*Distance to: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA*
0.01382046 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
0.01407303 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01891936 TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A
0.02302061 MKD_Anc_outlier1
0.02370778 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.02471069 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02483178 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A

Dodecad K12b distances with modern populations

*Distance to: Alalakh_MLBA*
5.33902045 Lebanese_Christian
5.81571781 Palestinian_Christian
6.23079967 Syrian_Christian
6.70861389 Jordanian_Christian
8.23371704 Nusayri_Turkey
8.27243029 Iraqi_Jew
8.71029762 Kurdish_Jew
9.32366659 Assyrian_West
9.62651803 Assyrian_South

----------


## eupator

> The paper did the same with Yamnaya by claiming non-existent Levantine admixture.



 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

It's non existent because you say so.

Never mind the fact that it says explicitly in the supplementary material why Levant_PPN was used, but then again when did your little cult ever bother with mundane things like actual reading?




> _.
> .
> .
> The CHG/EHG combination is invariant in the fitting models, with the EHG proportion in the ~40-50% range in all of them. We note parenthetically that the model of (17) that includes CHG/EHG/WHG/Anatolian Neolithic ancestry fails in our framework (p<1e-10), and inspection of outlier f4-statistics indicates that it underestimates (Z<-3) shared drift with Levant_PPN (Z=-5.6), Natufians, Azerbaijan Neolithic, and Ganj Dareh outgroups.
> .
> .
> .
> To summarize our results in this section, when we consider Neolithic sources, we can model the ancestry of the Yamnaya cluster as a mixture of a southern source from the South Caucasus and a CHG/EHG-admixed source which does not correspond to any of the sampled Eneolithic populations of the steppe either because they might not have the right balance of CHG and EHG ancestry -which presumably existed in other proportions than those in sampled individuals- or because they have extra Siberian affinity. The populations of the South Caucasus can be modeled as having both Anatolian and Levantine-related ancestry using the analysis of the Neolithic continuum (11) and in terms of the 5-source model (Supplementary Text S3, Fig. S 3, Fig. 5) and could thus be useful candidates for contributing this type of ancestry to the Yamnaya along the Caucasus genetic bridge (Fig. 3; Fig. S 3). Our modeling suggests that the contribution of the southern population to the ancestry of the Yamnaya was substantial. When we consider more proximal Chalcolithic/Eneolithic sources, the Yamnaya cluster can be modeled with a Southern Arc source that is not geographically welllocalized but includes the Caucasus and SE Anatolia and northern ancestry related to the 309Eneolithic of the North Caucasus Piedmont but not corresponding to it exactly (having more EHG ancestry than it and no Siberian affinity
> .
> ...

----------


## Vallicanus

> It's non existent because you say so.
> 
> Never mind the fact that it says explicitly in the supplementary material why Levant_PPN was used, *but then again when did your little cult ever bother with mundane things like actual reading*?


Amen to that.

The Steppe...Corded Ware...and repeat.

----------


## eupator

I ran my own WGS data with the paper's methodology out of curiosity and these are my observations:



```
results$weights
# A tibble: 5 × 5
  target left      weight     se     z
  <chr>  <chr>      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 eptr  Turkey_N  0.302  0.0723  4.18
2 eptr  PPN       0.149  0.0545  2.73
3 eptr  Balkan_HG 0.0693 0.0217  3.19
4 eptr  EHG       0.0962 0.0293  3.29
5 eptr  CHG       0.384  0.0400  9.59
> results$popdrop
# A tibble: 31 × 16
   pat      wt   dof chisq        p f4rank Turkey_N      PPN Balkan_HG
   <chr> <dbl> <dbl> <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>    <dbl>     <dbl>
 1 00000     0     3  21.7 7.40e- 5      4    0.302   0.149     0.0693

```



Model fails with a p-value of 0,000740.

Swapping CHG for Iran_N (from left to right outgroup list and vice versa):



```
results$weights
# A tibble: 5 × 5
  target left       weight     se       z
  <chr>  <chr>       <dbl>  <dbl>   <dbl>
1 eptr  Turkey_N  0.416   0.0621  6.69  
2 eptr  PPN       0.00456 0.0506  0.0901
3 eptr  Balkan_HG 0.0961  0.0217  4.43  
4 eptr  EHG       0.0338  0.0300  1.13  
5 eptr  Iran_N    0.450   0.0358 12.5   
> results$popdrop
# A tibble: 31 × 16
   pat      wt   dof  chisq         p f4rank Turkey_N       PPN Balkan_HG
   <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>     <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>     <dbl>     <dbl>
 1 00000     0     3   1.92 5.89e-  1      4    0.416   4.56e-3    0.0961
```

The model passes with a robust p-value of 0,589.


Observations:

1) CHG and Iran_N seem indeed interchangeable and need to be swapped around on a per case basis.

2) My Serbia_Irongates_HG is huge, nearly 10%. That will definitely over-inflate my Steppe (my EHG is barely 3.5%) on other PCA calculators since the Balkan_HG will act as a stand-in for Karelia/Samara_HG giving a false sense of the reality since Serbia_Irongates_HG was never a source population for Yamnaya_Samara.

Something to ponder on?

----------


## matadworf

> I ran my own WGS data with the paper's methodology out of curiosity and these are my observations:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> results$weights
> # A tibble: 5 × 5
>   target left      weight     se     z
>   <chr>  <chr>      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
> ...


So CHG fed into Iran N prior to the Neolithic, right (I'm guessing a significant chunk)-thus the interchangeability? My other question that was brought up by another poster was the comment by Lazaridis (I may be misrepresenting what he said) about the Balkan IE source that came South into Greece during the Bronze age was like 60-70 CHG/30 EHG. So could an additional source of CHG found in Myceneans coming from that population?

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Does E-V13 need re-imagining? It was found in Nicaea, a Byzantine/Greek place, in ca. 600 ad., before Vlach and Albanian settlements in Greece. Perhaps it was from the late-antiquity Hellenic/Byzantine world where some Albanians and Vlachs picked up this haplogroup, to spread it in other parts of Greece later. A quick perusal of YFull seems to show Greeks in older branches and generally higher up on the tree.

----------


## eupator

Heraclean period is compatible with Vlachs.

----------


## ihype02

> Heraclean period is compatible with Vlachs.


A Thracian tribe settled in Bithynia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithyni

----------


## eupator

> A Thracian tribe settled in Bithynia.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithyni


Vlachs are Draco-Thracians in the literature.

----------


## eupator

> My other question that was brought up by another poster was the comment by Lazaridis (I may be misrepresenting what he said) about the Balkan IE source that came South into Greece during the Bronze age was like 60-70 CHG/30 EHG. So could an additional source of CHG found in Myceneans coming from that population?



I've missed that bit.

----------


## Angela

> Does E-V13 need re-imagining? It was found in Nicaea, a Byzantine/Greek place, in ca. 600 ad., before Vlach and Albanian settlements in Greece. Perhaps it was from the late-antiquity Hellenic/Byzantine world where some Albanians and Vlachs picked up this haplogroup, to spread it in other parts of Greece later. A quick perusal of YFull seems to show Greeks in older branches and generally higher up on the tree.


Do you mean to say that the Greek E-V13 is older than the E-V13 found in Albanians?

How about the Mycenaean like E-V13 sample found in the EBA in Bulgaria.

How about the E-V13 found further north.

It would seem to me that before drawing all these conclusions a diagram should be done showing the branches and age of the samples. Southern Italian E-V13 should be included as well.

----------


## Angela

> I ran my own WGS data with the paper's methodology out of curiosity and these are my observations:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> results$weights
> # A tibble: 5 × 5
>   target left      weight     se     z
>   <chr>  <chr>      <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
> ...


I've always maintained that the same sort of thing happens in far-northeastern Europe. All that WHG inflates their "steppe" proportions. The same thing may be true everywhere in Europe where there may have been a WHG "resurgence", which I also always proposed.

----------


## Angela

> So CHG fed into Iran N prior to the Neolithic, right (I'm guessing a significant chunk)-thus the interchangeability? My other question that was brought up by another poster was the comment by Lazaridis (I may be misrepresenting what he said) about the Balkan IE source that came South into Greece during the Bronze age was like 60-70 CHG/30 EHG. So could an additional source of CHG found in Myceneans coming from that population?


CHG looks to me like Iran Neo "like" populations, who knows how old in Iran, who got a bit of additional ANE.

----------


## Angela

> When Iran_N is not included, a similar percentage also comes out on Global25 (5.8% Levant_PNB). But that still does not justify the allegedly close proximity between Mycenaean or Kapitan Andreevo and Alalakh.
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily, "my" platform would never reproduce shitty results like these, taken directly from the paper.
> 
> Etruscan_Tarquinia = CHG 14.45%, EHG 9.87%, Levant_PPN 5.94%, SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 13.57%, TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N 56.19%
> 
> Imagine then using these results to prove a very recent connection between the Etruscans and West Asia. The paper did the same with Yamnaya by claiming non-existent Levantine admixture.
> ...


A distance of 5 and 6 isn't very impressive. I'm not interested in G25 analyses. If he wants to be taken seriously, then post the methodology and the source of the samples, the way that academicians do. Otherwise, it's always going to be suspect to anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> Do you mean to say that the Greek E-V13 is older than the E-V13 found in Albanians?
> 
> How about the Mycenaean like E-V13 sample found in the EBA in Bulgaria.
> 
> How about the E-V13 found further north.
> 
> It would seem to me that before drawing all these conclusions a diagram should be done showing the branches and age of the samples. Southern Italian E-V13 should be included as well.


I saw the old Hungary samples from around the time of the Nicaea sample. The modern Greek samples in older E-V13 branches are in Y159845 (a sub-branch of Y30977/Nicaea sample), BY3880 and Z17264. Based on the Nicaea finding and branch ages, the introduction of E-V13 in the Greek world might not be a novel thing. Went too far with speculation, sorry. But did learn something. Was expecting to not see Greek samples high up in the tree, thinking they would branch down from other modern Balkan ethnic groups.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

----------


## ihype02

Nobody is claiming that E-V13 was 100% non existent in Ancient Greece. Because old Greeks had contact with Thracians too. But in Peloponnese it's spread seems mostly medieval. 
Slavs in Croatia brought some E-V13 picked by nearby the Danube region. One big clade in Montenegro is related with Roman migrants and some with Slavic migration and some with Albanians.

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> A distance of 5 and 6 isn't very impressive. I'm not interested in G25 analyses. If he wants to be taken seriously, then post the methodology and the source of the samples, the way that academicians do. Otherwise, it's always going to be suspect to anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid.


My modern ancestry composition at IllustrativeDNA (using G25 coordinates) was overall more accurate than what 23andMe told me.

I don't understand the hate for G25.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Heatmaps illustrating relative distances to modern populations:


Are the heatmaps available to use for free online?
Edit: nevermind, it's not free and it's useless. It only includes Europe.

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> These at most are simulated coordinates for Emilia-Romagna. If simulated ones were used, then all simulated ones should be used. This discussion has already taken place, why is it being repeated?


It's sourced from "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos", I don't know why you are saying it's simulated?

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> Are the heatmaps available to use for free online?
> Edit: nevermind, it's not free and it's useless. It only includes Europe.


If you are open to reconsidering how "useless" it is I'm more than willing to share a download link with you  :Laughing:  You're the second to ask for more coverage though.

I wanted to add at least North Africa but the SVG map I'm using has Morocco broken up into regions in a way I don't understand, I can't find matching regions on Wikipedia. It's pretty tedious to identify every country's regions, and then find G25 coordinates that correspond to them.

What would be the most important countries to add first, regarding this thread?

The Levant?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> It's sourced from "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos", I don't know why you are saying it's simulated?



Because there are no academic samples realeased so far from Emilia-Romagna. So it can be no more than a simulated average. Not to mention the fact that "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos" is nothing but amateur and hobbyst stuff.

----------


## eupator

> Because there are no academic samples realeased so far from Emilia-Romagna. So it can be no more than a simulated average. Not to mention the fact that "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos" is nothing but amateur and hobbyst stuff.



Correct, most of his Greek stuff are from random internet acquittances, more often than not with very poor and vague oral family tradition, that also have an intra-familial bias projected around them (expat/migrant communities in the diaspora with high levels of intra-marriage within their communities, etc.). 

They are also the inventors of the "East Med" ancestral cluster of theirs, so they make sure their sampling protects their "unbroken 'East Med' continuity" (lol, Crete).

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Correct, most of his Greek stuff are from random internet acquittances, more often than not with very poor and vague oral family tradition, that also have an intra-familial bias projected around them (expat/migrant communities in the diaspora with high levels of intra-marriage within their communities, etc.). 
> 
> They are also the inventors of the "East Med" ancestral cluster of theirs, so they make sure their sampling protects their "unbroken 'East Med' continuity" (lol, Crete).



Worth mentioning, that even academic scientific samples can be inaccurate. There is a whole set labeled Greek Macedonia that ends with Bulgarians, just as an example, and far from the other Greek sample sets. Just about almost everywhere in the academic sample sets you find outliers, which regardless of their accuracy should be statistically removed. But some of the outliers stray so far from the main cluster that it may not be dependent on individual variation but depends on the fact that their ancestry is not fully in line with the group under which they were labeled.


As for the many inventions in that forum, it is really funny that every time ancient DNA analysis proves them wrong they casually pretend that nothing happened, and move on to come up with new ones.

----------


## Jovialis

I am fascinated by the fact that I get a good fit with Cetina + Mycenaean. Both of those cultures were in my part of Italy.

----------


## Jovialis

Nevertheless, I still get a better fit if using a two way with Minoan and Yamnaya. Which parallels adjacent regions like Greece and Albania, who are a mix of Yamnaya and Balkan/Greece_N people. We have to wait and see what Southern_Italian_N, or Apulia_N looks like.

----------


## Hawk

What language did the Ancient Sicilians speak before the coming of Greek colonizers?

Was it some sort of IE, EEF?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> What language did the Ancient Sicilians speak before the coming of Greek colonizers?
> 
> Was it some sort of IE, EEF?



Sicily was inhabited by at least three different populations before the arrival of Greek colonists: Elymians, Sicani and Sicels.

----------


## Francesco

> Sicily was inhabited by at least three different populations before the arrival of Greek colonists: Elymians, Sicani and Sicels.


If I'm not mistaken, Sicels spoke a language of the same branch of latin. Even the latin mythology hands down a supposedly closeness (if not kinship) with Sicels, since they inhabited Latium before latins themselves.

Also for Elymnians, the most modern theory hypothesize a kinship with latin branch, while Sicani are believed to have spoken a non IE language. For these two people, anyway, I believe we have very few attestations of a written language, so i guess it's difficult to formulate a solid historical linguistic hypothesis.

----------


## Francesco

> I am fascinated by the fact that I get a good fit with Cetina + Mycenaean. Both of those cultures were in my part of Italy.


Maybe HRV_Cetina_BA could be a good proxy for: 

a) the early proto italic tribes who inhabited the balkans before moving in to Italy (wich could have had low WHG ancestry and a bit of CHG excess); 
b) the mix of proto italic and the autoctonous pre IE inhabitant of southern Italy, whic were minoan-like.

a) and b) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Maybe HRV_Cetina_BA could be a good proxy for: 
> 
> a) the early proto italic tribes who inhabited the balkans before moving in to Italy (wich could have had low WHG ancestry and a bit of CHG excess); 
> b) the mix of proto italic and the autoctonous pre IE inhabitant of southern Italy, whic were minoan-like.
> 
> a) and b) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.


Which Italics are we talking about?

The analysed Latins are still too few, but from their uniparental markers the linguistic ancestors of the Latins did not come from the Balkans.

As far as speakers of Osco-Umbrian languages are concerned, there are no samples analysed yet. If the Italo-Celtic theory is true, their linguistic ancestors came from the Bell Beaker/Corded culture as well, as it's in the case likely of the Latino-Faliscan speakers. It is possible that the Venetics are also linguistically related to these migrations. Most probably also the IE-speaking migrations in the Etruscans. 

Then, of course, as admitted by archaeologists, in some Italic peoples probably also came small groups from the Balkans. Certainly in the Picenes. But also in others. The two J2b-L283 found in the Etruscans may be part of these small movements (also supported by archaeology).

Based on statements by geneticists, samples of Samnites from Campania turned out to be autosomal DNA similar to Latins and Etruscans. We know nothing about their possible Y-DNAs.

It is not yet clear, but HRV_Cetina_BA seems to be related to the later Balkan ethnic groups. Perhaps the northern Balkans functioned as a corridor and small groups arrived in Italy as early as the Bronze Age. Contacts between archaeological cultures in Italy and the Cetina culture are attested.

----------


## Francesco

> Which Italics are we talking about?
> The analysed Latins are still too few, but from their uniparental markers the linguistic ancestors of the Latins did not come from the Balkans.


I didn't have specifically in mind any of the two italic branches. I knew the proto-italic uremaith is supposedly located in what is now Hungary, so maybe - but this is just an (un)educated guess - they could have been autosomically similar, or at least comparable, to other bronze age Balkan population (Hungary is not quite located in the Balkans, but it's pretty close nonetheless). 

Of course, since if I understood correctly Jovialis is from Puglia, it's also plausible that there were direct contacts with a dalmatian population, without the influence of any italic tribe (even if contacts with oscan tribes are attested at least in northern Puglia).

----------


## torzio

> I didn't have specifically in mind any of the two italic branches. I knew the proto-italic uremaith is supposedly located in what is now Hungary, so maybe - but this is just an (un)educated guess - they could have been autosomically similar, or at least comparable, to other bronze age Balkan population (Hungary is not quite located in the Balkans, but it's pretty close nonetheless). 
> 
> Of course, since if I understood correctly Jovialis is from Puglia, it's also plausible that there were direct contacts with a dalmatian population, without the influence of any italic tribe (even if contacts with oscan tribes are attested at least in northern Puglia).



every Italian on the adriatic side , who can trace their line would have "illyrian" connections

the Adriatic is too small to be a barrier even in ancient times

----------


## Francesco

> every Italian on the adriatic side , who can trace their line would have "illyrian" connections
> the Adriatic is too small to be a barrier even in ancient times


Absolutely, I didn't mean to deny that. I was just wandering if Cetina_BA could be autosomically comparable to the proto-italic speakers before entering Italy

----------


## torzio

> Absolutely, I didn't mean to deny that. I was just wandering if Cetina_BA could be autosomically comparable to the proto-italic speakers before entering Italy



what age is Cetina ?

I think it would be impossible to link with Bronze or iron age people

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> If you are open to reconsidering how "useless" it is I'm more than willing to share a download link with you  You're the second to ask for more coverage though.
> 
> I wanted to add at least North Africa but the SVG map I'm using has Morocco broken up into regions in a way I don't understand, I can't find matching regions on Wikipedia. It's pretty tedious to identify every country's regions, and then find G25 coordinates that correspond to them.
> 
> What would be the most important countries to add first, regarding this thread?
> 
> The Levant?


It would be better if the user had the option to add his own cords for each region since they sometimes get updated and it would be less work for you. Other people would end up covering the coordinate part. Can you include the whole world and let the user edit the coordinates?

About Morocco, either use a Moroccan average to represent all of Morocco or simply use the North Morocco coordinate for the northern parts and South Morocco coordinates for the Southern parts.

----------


## Francesco

> what age is Cetina ?
> I think it would be impossible to link with Bronze or iron age people


It's an early bronze age culture

----------


## Er Monnezza

> what age is Cetina ?
> I think it would be impossible to link with Bronze or iron age people


Cetina samples are dated to 1800 BC.

----------


## torzio

> Cetina samples are dated to 1800 BC.



do you have the sample ID # for the boxed one ?

----------


## Er Monnezza

> do you have the sample ID # for the boxed one ?


That's an average not a sample.

----------


## torzio

> That's an average not a sample.


ok

which is the liburnian sample ...R1
and the Dalmatian sample 13313

----------


## AnthrogenicaMember

> It would be better if the user had the option to add his own cords for each region since they sometimes get updated and it would be less work for you. Other people would end up covering the coordinate part. Can you include the whole world and let the user edit the coordinates?


Is it okay if the regions are unlabeled? The SVG map I sourced it from is a WIP, only countries are labeled but not regions. But I'm definitely open to doing this.

----------


## Idontknowwhatimdoing

> Is it okay if the regions are unlabeled? The SVG map I sourced it from is a WIP, only countries are labeled but not regions. But I'm definitely open to doing this.


Yeah why not. If you charge though you should label the regions.

----------


## Jovialis

Definitely would like to see more Italic samples processed from various tribes, particularly the Oscans. If they're shifted a bit from Protovillanovan (R1) who is similar to Cetina, that you could easily bracket modern Apulians, and myself with Myceneans.

----------


## 1337_

Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?

----------


## lockdownboredom

> Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?


The former

ID
Label
Locality
Country

I3881
MKD_N
Pista Novo Selo
North Macedonia

I7231
MKD_BA
Dimov Grob, V. Ulanci-Gradsko
North Macedonia

I10171
MKD_BA_lc
Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko
North Macedonia

I10168
MKD_BA_lc
Skopje, Skupi, East Necropolis
North Macedonia

I7233
MKD_Anc
Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko
North Macedonia

I10388
MKD_Anc
Plaosnik-Ohrid
North Macedonia

I8112
MKD_Anc
Lisicin Dol, Marvinci, Valandovo
North Macedonia

I10383
MKD_Anc
Lisicin Dol-Marvinci, Valandovo
North Macedonia

I10385
MKD_Anc
Plaosnik-Ohrid
North Macedonia

I10379
MKD_Anc
Bucinci-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10381
MKD_Anc
Govrlevo-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10378
MKD_Anc
Bucinci-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10380
MKD_IA_lc
Govrlevo-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10389
MKD_Anc
Plaosnik-Ohrid
North Macedonia

I10387
MKD_Anc
Plaosnik-Ohrid
North Macedonia

I10384
MKD_Anc
Plaosnik-Ohrid
North Macedonia

I10382
MKD_Anc
Govrlevo-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10377
MKD_Anc
Bucinci-Skopje
North Macedonia

I10390
MKD_Anc
Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)
North Macedonia

I10392
MKD_Anc_outlier1
Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis
North Macedonia

I10166
MKD_Anc
Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis
North Macedonia

I10391
MKD_Anc
Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)
North Macedonia

I10167
MKD_Anc_outlier2
Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)
North Macedonia

I2530
MKD_Mdv
Tumba S. Opticari, Bitola
North Macedonia

----------


## 1337_

Thanks a lot. They seem similar to the Greek_logkas found in Northern Greece ?

----------


## 1337_

Do you have the results of these samples such as K13, K15 or G25 that compares them with modern populations ?

----------


## 1337_

Some of these North Macedonian samples can actually be considered Illyrian ? Skopje was an Illyrian town or Paeonian . 

Ohrid was Illyrian for example such as Enchele and Dassaretii . Maybe some of those more south which was under Ancient Macedonian influence can be considered Ancient Macedonian .

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?


North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.

----------


## 1337_

> North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.


Thanks a lot for doing the PCA. 

Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest. 

I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?

----------


## Angela

Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Thanks a lot for doing the PCA. 
> 
> Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest. 
> 
> I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?


You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Urh...taCM7PFw1/view

Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr...CQncZWb8y/view

Samples



```
MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311
MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634
MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269
```

Closest modern averages



```
Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379
0.04160790    Greek_Corinthia
0.04209242    Italian_Umbria
0.04293713    Italian_Tuscany
0.04331874    Albanian
0.04350649    French_Corsica
0.04363560    Greek_Achaea
0.04382362    Greek_Argolis
0.04386982    Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04493594    Greek_Peloponnese
0.04494455    Italian_Piedmont

Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381
0.03504228    French_Corsica
0.03818658    Italian_Lombardy
0.03870528    Italian_Bergamo
0.03948887    Italian_Piedmont
0.03986299    Italian_Tuscany
0.04137620    Italian_Umbria
0.04242321    Greek_Thessaly
0.04266998    Swiss_Italian
0.04275243    Italian_Veneto
0.04287049    Italian_Marche

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112
0.03277776    Italian_Veneto
0.03282563    Swiss_Italian
0.03394397    Italian_Piedmont
0.03503558    Italian_Bergamo
0.03530438    French_Corsica
0.03569553    Italian_Tuscany
0.03617877    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03898551    Italian_Northeast
0.03908354    Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03979649    Spanish_Baleares

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383
0.03758136    French_Corsica
0.03813145    Italian_Tuscany
0.03888043    Italian_Piedmont
0.03998897    Swiss_Italian
0.04010991    Italian_Bergamo
0.04024820    Italian_Veneto
0.04093217    Italian_Umbria
0.04426290    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04493292    Italian_Lombardy
0.04603390    Albanian

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390
0.02979567    Italian_Lombardy
0.03365491    Italian_Piedmont
0.03519821    Greek_Thessaly
0.03525994    Italian_Bergamo
0.03596028    Italian_Tuscany
0.03652714    Italian_Marche
0.03657377    French_Corsica
0.03744124    Italian_Liguria
0.04032554    Italian_Veneto
0.04073644    Albanian

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391
0.03637200    Italian_Marche
0.03665969    Italian_Lombardy
0.03718366    French_Corsica
0.03749688    Greek_Thessaly
0.03754515    Italian_Tuscany
0.03867890    Italian_Piedmont
0.03900322    Greek_Messenia
0.03952154    Greek_Arcadia
0.03992825    Greek_Argolis
0.04068889    Italian_Umbria

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384
0.02658953    Italian_Bergamo
0.02665376    Italian_Piedmont
0.02815767    Italian_Veneto
0.03148070    Italian_Tuscany
0.03157290    Italian_Lombardy
0.03218132    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03292243    French_Corsica
0.03316853    Swiss_Italian
0.03421080    Italian_Northeast
0.03444028    Greek_Thessaly

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385
0.03102428    Italian_Lombardy
0.03106331    Italian_Piedmont
0.03257605    Greek_Thessaly
0.03430976    Italian_Bergamo
0.03548999    Italian_Veneto
0.03595776    Italian_Tuscany
0.03600791    Italian_Liguria
0.03727806    Swiss_Italian
0.03776131    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03849048    Italian_Northeast

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387
0.04172449    French_Corsica
0.04315419    Italian_Tuscany
0.04317575    Italian_Lombardy
0.04376980    Italian_Bergamo
0.04486060    Italian_Piedmont
0.04673105    Italian_Umbria
0.04761407    Italian_Marche
0.04809777    Greek_Thessaly
0.04835839    Italian_Lazio
0.04992830    Italian_Liguria

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388
0.02865295    Italian_Piedmont
0.02881542    Italian_Tuscany
0.03067725    French_Corsica
0.03111068    Italian_Lombardy
0.03150509    Italian_Bergamo
0.03239027    Greek_Thessaly
0.03339795    Italian_Marche
0.03390751    Italian_Umbria
0.03504262    Albanian
0.03513450    Italian_Veneto

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389
0.04745656    Italian_Piedmont
0.04809294    Italian_Tuscany
0.04818109    Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04856204    Swiss_Italian
0.04872707    Greek_Thessaly
0.04898417    Albanian
0.04912564    Rumelia_East
0.05038593    Italian_Veneto
0.05127101    Italian_Northeast
0.05157051    Greek_West_Taygetos

Distance to:    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233
0.04803218    Italian_Lazio
0.04830066    French_Corsica
0.05103187    Italian_Molise
0.05128321    Italian_Umbria
0.05182249    Italian_Apulia
0.05211776    Italian_Marche
0.05213577    Italian_Abruzzo
0.05261011    Italian_Tuscany
0.05314765    Italian_Basilicata
0.05322605    Greek_Corinthia
```

----------


## 1337_

> Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?


Who said anything about that ?

----------


## 1337_

> You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Urh...taCM7PFw1/view
> 
> Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr...CQncZWb8y/view
> 
> Samples
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



Thanks a lot. I will check them out. Some of these samples look like some Thracian and Illyrian samples that were found . Some of these with North-Italy as first are like some Illyrian samples.

----------


## bigsnake49

So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...

----------


## Er Monnezza

> So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...


Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
(this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)

Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
0.05240272 Macedonian
0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)

----------


## 1337_

> So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...


Why would they be ? Macedonia was invaded by Bulgarians in 900 AD.

I wonder how much Slavic influence Greek Macedonia has ? I expect samples in actual Greek Macedonia to possibly be like IA Thracians or something between these samples and IA Thracians.

----------


## td120

A good deal of Aegean Macedonia , almost the whole of N.Macedonia and a part of modern-day Albania was conquered by Presian .
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...er_Presian.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presian_I_of_Bulgaria
The "Slavicization" of what is today N.Macedonia is a post IXc. event (done deliberately, as the long term policy of Pliska suggests...or at least with her consent).

----------


## 1337_

> Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. *Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.*


..............

Sorry I meant ninth century

----------


## epirus1000

> Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
> (this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)
> 
> Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
> 0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
> 0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
> 0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
> 0.05240272 Macedonian
> 0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)


I got this reply from Bruzmi in Anthrogenica
===
With regional averages from the Balkans:

Distance to: MKD_Anc
0.02035549 Albanian_Mirditë
0.02291769 Italian_Tuscany
0.02293867 Italian_Piedmont
0.02468915 French_Corsica
0.02513461 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
0.02612041 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
0.02633171 Italian_Bergamo
0.02671033 Albanian_Central_Albania
0.02742488 Italian_Lombardy
0.02794789 Italian_Umbria
0.02798586 Greek_Thessaly
0.02834517 Albanian_Himarë
0.02867494 Albanian_Labëria
0.02889933 Albanian_Montenegro
0.02897302 Albanian_Pukë
0.02949664 Italian_Marche
0.02956238 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania
0.02977295 Albanian_Dibra
0.02988281 Swiss_Italian
0.02996540 Albanian
0.03013093 Albanian_Kosovo
0.03023377 Italian_Veneto
0.03027398 Albanian_Korçë
0.03075118 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis
0.03092072 Greek_Central_Greece_Boeotia
====
In the end, we should revive the legend the Mathia (todays Mat region in Albania) is related to the Ancient Macedonians. And todays matians being the core of Albanians. Matzinger at the end is not that off-road.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> In the end, we should revive the legend the Mathia (todays Mat region in Albania) is related to the Ancient Macedonians. And todays matians being the core of Albanians. Matzinger at the end is not that off-road.


Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.




> As a side note, the _Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite_ sample should really be removed or included into one of the other Albanian groups. It is based on a single sample from a rather suspicious and problematic individual (responsible for some questionable posts and trolling) from another forum whose entire ancestry was not entirely clear. The inclusion of his alleged religious affiliation in the label is also a little odd in my opinion.

----------


## epirus1000

> Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.


Still Bruzmi in Anthrogenica
=====
The post is old (before we started collecting G25 coords and G25 sims) and doesn't refer to the Albanian_Mirdita average. The Mirditë average was created by several samples including the one which is uploaded on the official G25 dataset.

Here are the official G25 basic components of another individual from Mirdita who basically has the same profile as the AL12:

Target: Mirdita:AL12Mirdita
Distance: 2.2959% / 0.02295938
61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
36.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 WHG
0.8 Han

Target: Mirdita_RP_Albania:Mirdita2
Distance: 2.5585% / 0.02558529
61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

And several others from other regions with similar profiles:

Target: Albanians_in_Montenegro:Gucia
Distance: 2.9421% / 0.02942079
62.2 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.2 WHG
0.8 Han
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


Target: Dibra2
Distance: 3.0627% / 0.03062717
64.2 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 WHG
0.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Podujeva1
Distance: 3.8775% / 0.03877456
59.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.2 WHG
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
0.6 Han

Target: Kukës1
Distance: 2.8298% / 0.02829819
59.4 TUR_Barcin_N
37.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
0.4 WHG

Target: Dibra1
Distance: 2.8707% / 0.02870661
63.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 WHG
0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

All of these are official G25 coords. Similar results have been seen among G25 sims.

The sample is perfectly normal and a core part of the Albanian autosomal profile. The ALB_PostMdv samples from Southern Arc are indeed very close to the samples above:

Target: ALB_PostMdv
Distance: 2.2646% / 0.02264592
62.0 TUR_Barcin_N
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.2 WHG
0.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 Levant_PPNB

----------


## epirus1000

> Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.


Well, it is a pity that the work of first Albanian ethnographer Rrok Zojzi (1910-1995) is not present that much in the main literature. His collection of old poems and tales inherited for centuries would be a treasure, especially in this era of DNA comparison, including the mentioning of the Alexander the Great in those poems and tales.

----------


## Dianatomia

> Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
> (this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)
> 
> Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
> 0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
> 0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
> 0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
> 0.05240272 Macedonian
> 0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)


It is possible that many of the native people of North Macedonia (former Paeonia) fled South during the Slavic invasions. Looking for refuge closer to the Greek world and the Aegean. It makes sense, because the people living there were already Greek Orthodox Christians and part of the Greek world, while the newcomers were not. 




> 1337_[/COLOR]]Why would they be ? Macedonia was invaded by Bulgarians in 900 AD.
> 
> I wonder how much Slavic influence Greek Macedonia has ? I expect samples in actual Greek Macedonia to possibly be like IA Thracians or something between these samples and IA Thracians.


Keep in mind that even Greek Macedonia constitutes a region larger than original habitat of the Ancient Macedonians. The Macedonians settled among other Greek tribes as well as Thracian/Paeonian tribes. They expelled them and created their first kingdom. Then, later on, Phillip expanded the kingdom and incorporated other regions absorbing other Greek tribes (Mollosians, Thessalians) as well as Thracian tribes. So Macedonia during Phillip would be from encopasse Mycenaean-like to IA Thracian-like individuals. Basically they would plot just a bit North of Mycenaeans.

----------


## Milan.M

> It is possible that many of the native people of North Macedonia (former Paeonia) fled South during the Slavic invasions. Looking for refuge closer to the Greek world and the Aegean. It makes sense, because the people living there were already Greek Orthodox Christians and part of the Greek world, while the newcomers were not. 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that even Greek Macedonia constitutes a region larger than original habitat of the Ancient Macedonians. The Macedonians settled among other Greek tribes as well as Thracian/Paeonian tribes. They expelled them and created their first kingdom. Then, later on, Phillip expanded the kingdom and incorporated other regions absorbing other Greek tribes (Mollosians, Thessalians) as well as Thracian tribes. So Macedonia during Phillip would be from encopasse Mycenaean-like to IA Thracian-like individuals. Basically they would plot just a bit North of Mycenaeans.


Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.

----------


## Dianatomia

> Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.


Greek Macedonians do not overlap to IA Thracians or Mycenaeans. So there is always room for the Slavic newcomers to be absorbed in Greek Macedonia. 

When comparing modern Greeks to Mycenaeans, of all modern Greek populations Greek Macedonians usually come up as least related to them (aside from some Pontian Greeks). But when comparing Greek Macedonians to IA North Macedonia, the Greek Macedonians are the closest of all Greek and Balkan populations. Now, I don't think Ancient Macedonians would overlap with IA Thracians (given earlier samples) and I don't think that Myceneans + 30% Slavic = IA Thracian (or somethning close to Greek Macedonian). Hence I argue that many indigenous people from North Macedonia migrated South at some point.

----------


## Dianatomia

Is there a way of estimating Slavic admixture in Macedonian Slavs if we compare IA North Macedonia to Macedonian Slavs?

----------


## ihype02

> Is there a way of estimating Slavic admixture in Macedonian Slavs if we compare IA North Macedonia to Macedonian Slavs?


The Thracian ancestry outweighs the Illyrian/Paonian-ancestry in both South-Western Slavs and Slavic Macedonians when modeling. Similarly how E-V13 outweighs J2b. This can be explain with:
1.) Roman genocide and Daco-Thracian related population movement.
2.) Slavic tribes absorbed some E-V13 lines and their autosomal impact during their road before making permanent settlements.
3.) Or a mixture of both scenarios.

----------


## PaleoRevenge

> The Thracian ancestry outweighs the Illyrian/Paonian-ancestry in both South-Western Slavs and Slavic Macedonians when modeling. Similarly how E-V13 outweighs J2b. This can be explain with:
> 1.) Roman genocide and Daco-Thracian related population movement.
> 2.) Slavic tribes absorbed some E-V13 lines and their autosomal impact during their road before making permanent settlements.
> 3.) Or a mixture of both scenarios.


The frontiers of the empire on the eve of Slavic migrations was also a factor.



Since the Huns show up, to the times of the the Slavic invasion, the Byzantines were more concerned with invasions to Thrace which would endanger their capitol, Dalmatia was more of a distant outpost, subject to easy raids over and over from Huns, Lobmbards, Gepids, Slavs and Avars. The defense and manpower was concentrated in eastern and central Balkans. The population of Dalmatia was thinned out from constant barbarian raids of almost 200 years. That would explain why Daco-Thracian derived population have left more legacy in Balkan Slavs.

----------


## Francesco

> Definitely would like to see more Italic samples processed from various tribes, particularly the Oscans. If they're shifted a bit from Protovillanovan (R1) who is similar to Cetina, that you could easily bracket modern Apulians, and myself with Myceneans.


That would make southern italic tribes similar to the Crete Armenoi sample. A similar scenario makes sense, imho (minoan-like substratum+more steppe ancestry than bronze age aegean populations). Modern southern italian would largely plot between them and Mycenaeans/Iron age Greeks.

----------


## matadworf

I ran my coordinates with all of the Greek, Ancient Macedonian, Ancient Albanian samples and found that I tend to cluster closer to those archaic/Bronze Age populations well North of my ancestral homeland (Peloponnese). 

Distance to:
Anthony_C_scaled

0.02880945
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.03118023
MKD_Anc:I10391___female___BC_300___Coverage_66.29%

0.03328139
MKD_BA:I7231___R-CTS7556___BC_1219___Coverage_72.93%

0.03329729
MKD_Anc:I10388___J-Y13128___BC_708___Coverage_67.44%

0.03407186
MKD_Anc:I10390___G-Z6494___BC_393___Coverage_67.94%

0.03898782
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692___female___BC_950___Covera ge_69.46%

0.03966204
MKD_Anc:I10385___female___BC_641___Coverage_69.29%

0.04203850
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688___R-L51___BC_500___Coverage_66.52%

0.04217829
MKD_Anc:I10381___C-V86___BC_636___Coverage_22.20%

0.04225267
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.04365851
MKD_Anc:I10384___J-Y13128___BC_600___Coverage_65.57%

0.04384365
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16251___R-M269___BC_550___Coverage_36.88%

0.04616448
MKD_Anc:I10387___female___BC_600___Coverage_43.99%

0.04792661
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14690___R-CTS1450___BC_1050___Coverage_65.05%

0.05081105
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253___J-Y21878___BC_476___Coverage_33.12%

0.05129287
MKD_Anc:I7233___female___BC_850___Coverage_74.59%

0.05145260
MKD_Anc:I10379___female___BC_641___Coverage_66.02%

0.05351353
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514___female_ __BC_1215___Coverage_76.28%

0.05373817
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368___female___BC_1010 ___Coverage_10.73%

0.05438663
MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167___R-M269___BC_121___Coverage_12.67%

0.05518335
MKD_Anc:I8112___R-CTS1450___BC_664___Coverage_70.53%

0.05540831
MKD_Anc:I10383___female___BC_657___Coverage_67.48%

0.05545206
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577___G-Z7016___BC_1250___Coverage_24.67%

0.05663489
MKD_Anc:I10389___female___BC_600___Coverage_15.50%

0.06017545
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

----------


## torzio

> That would make southern italic tribes similar to the Crete Armenoi sample. A similar scenario makes sense, imho (minoan-like substratum+more steppe ancestry than bronze age aegean populations). Modern southern italian would largely plot between them and Mycenaeans/Iron age Greeks.



the 2 "dalmatian" are clearly a northern balkan group

below with many lombard samples

----------


## Dianatomia

I always though of the Paeonians as Thracians, or a Thraco-Illyrian mix of some sort. Some scholars also attested to the fact that they were closely connected to the Greeks as well. According to Homer they were related to the Phrygians living in Northern Greece. The Phrygians were dislocated by the Ancient Macedonians, and they migrated to Anatolia. But remains of the Phrygian language in Anatolia indicate that it was closely related to Greek in many respects. The Paeonians were certainly not Ancient Macedonians as they fought with them regularly. But they could have been biologically related to Greeks in general. 
In any case, based on all researches so far, North IA Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians and the like plot closer to modern Greeks (and Italians, Albanians) than Mycenaeans. So either Mycenaeans + some Slavic is indicative of these populations, or there was an Ancient migration from that area to Greece at some point of time.

----------


## dyterw

useful, thanks for sharing

----------


## Vasile

Hello , Can someone compare my and to my friends G25 coordinates with the new Ancient Macedonian samples ?

Me,0.121791,0.150298,0.01697,-0.003553,0.020004,-0.00502,0.007285,0.003461,0.001841,0.009112,-0.008769,-0.001649,-0.004608,0.000138,-0.013301,-0.000796,0.009518,-0.003167,0.002263,-0.008629,-0.010232,0.000371,0.010969,0.002651,-0.007185


Friend1_Aleksander,0.122929,0.146236,0.023381,-0.006137,0.026774,-0.001116,-0.00376,-0.002077,-0.002454,0.018588,0.00065,0.001798,0.003717,0.0101 84,-0.011943,-0.008353,-0.008475,-0.000887,0.008799,-0.009004,-0.009234,0.009769,-0.000739,0.000602,-0.002395


Friend2_Marija,0.124067,0.144205,0.015839,-0.011305,0.025235,-0.004462,0.00611,0,0.000409,0.010387,0.001137,0.00 2847,-0.002379,0.015964,-0.012215,-0.007823,-0.005215,0.003167,0.005279,-0.010505,-0.010107,0.001855,0.003574,0.001446,0


Thanks !

Or if you need Eurogenes K13 ;

Me
North_Atlantic	23.22 Pct
Baltic	19.51 Pct
West_Med	19.62 Pct
West_Asian	11.94 Pct
East_Med	22.3 Pct
Red_Sea	2.37 Pct
South_Asian	0.78 Pct
East_Asian	- 
Siberian	- 
Amerindian	- 
Oceanian	0.25 Pct
Northeast_African	- 
Sub-Saharan	- 

Friend1_Aleksander
Population 
North_Atlantic	21.34 Pct
Baltic	20.36 Pct
West_Med	21.95 Pct
West_Asian	10.17 Pct
East_Med	23.2 Pct
Red_Sea	1.56 Pct
South_Asian	- 
East_Asian	- 
Siberian	0.07 Pct
Amerindian	0.75 Pct
Oceanian	0.29 Pct
Northeast_African	- 
Sub-Saharan	0.3 Pct


Friend2_Marija
North_Atlantic	21.65 Pct
Baltic	18.55 Pct
West_Med	18.86 Pct
West_Asian	11.83 Pct
East_Med	24.8 Pct
Red_Sea	3.27 Pct
South_Asian	- 
East_Asian	0.07 Pct
Siberian	- 
Amerindian	0.68 Pct
Oceanian	0.28 Pct
Northeast_African	- 
Sub-Saharan	- 


And one more friend without g25 only k13

Aneta
North_Atlantic 25.99 Pct
Baltic 16.85 Pct
West_Med 15.82 Pct
West_Asian 14.14 Pct
East_Med 24.72 Pct
Red_Sea 1.6 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.53 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.35 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Hello , Can someone compare my and to my friends G25 coordinates with the new Ancient Macedonian samples ?


Distance to: MKD_Anc
0.03879608 Vasile_friend_Aleksander_scaled
0.03997637 Vasile_friend_Marija_scaled
0.04076002 Vasile_scaled
0.04089050 Vasile_friend_Hristina_scaled
0.04545712 Vasile_friend_Atanas_scaled
0.04595018 Vasile_friend_Angela_scaled
0.04899646 Vasile_friend_Nikola_scaled

----------


## Vasile

> Distance to: MKD_Anc
> 0.03879608 Vasile_friend_Aleksander_scaled
> 0.03997637 Vasile_friend_Marija_scaled
> 0.04076002 Vasile_scaled
> 0.04089050 Vasile_friend_Hristina_scaled
> 0.04545712 Vasile_friend_Atanas_scaled
> 0.04595018 Vasile_friend_Angela_scaled
> 0.04899646 Vasile_friend_Nikola_scaled



Nice thanks ! Can you add this Macedonian average from 100 G25 simulated coordinates ? 

Macedonian,0.1221137,0.1428205,0.0224179,-0.0081292,0.0261456,-0.0018024,0.0040086,0.0024083,0.0016661,0.0116851,-0.0009672,0.00148,-0.0025211,0.0091482,-0.0123715,-0.0017083,0.0059696,0.0005986,0.0055083,-0.0045047,-0.0054208,-0.0012481,0.0025807,0.000303,-0.0008277

----------


## epirus1000

> I ran my coordinates with all of the Greek, Ancient Macedonian, Ancient Albanian samples and found that I tend to cluster closer to those archaic/Bronze Age populations well North of my ancestral homeland (Peloponnese). 
> 
> Distance to:
> Anthony_C_scaled
> 
> 0.02880945
> GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
> 
> 0.03118023
> ...


You could not expect another result. The Illyrians were very close genetically to Macedonians and both survived much more than the ancient Greeks.

----------


## Er Monnezza

> Nice thanks ! Can you add this Macedonian average from 100 G25 simulated coordinates ? 
> 
> Macedonian,0.1221137,0.1428205,0.0224179,-0.0081292,0.0261456,-0.0018024,0.0040086,0.0024083,0.0016661,0.0116851,-0.0009672,0.00148,-0.0025211,0.0091482,-0.0123715,-0.0017083,0.0059696,0.0005986,0.0055083,-0.0045047,-0.0054208,-0.0012481,0.0025807,0.000303,-0.0008277

----------


## Vasile

Thanks again broski ,
With Baltic

Target: MACEDONIAN
Distance: 0.6977% / 0.00697730

58.2
Ancient-Macedonian



17.8
Balto-Slavic



9.4
Illyrian



9.2
Thracian



4.4
Caucasian



1.0
Pakistan_Butkara





Target: MACEDONIAN
Distance: 1.0396% / 0.01039620 | ADC: 0.25x

57.2
Ancient-Macedonian



28.6
Illyrian



13.4
Balto-Slavic



0.8
Caucasian







With + Slavic

Target: MACEDONIAN
Distance: 1.1159% / 0.01115895 | R3P

74.0
Ancient-Macedonian



14.6
Balto-Slavic



11.4
Caucasian











```
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269
Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861
Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.01169,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5723,0.124067,0.152329,0.039221,-0.006783,0.045239,-0.00251,0.00188,-0.003231,0.012271,0.030616,-0.004547,0.006444,-0.016501,-0.003441,-0.010043,0.003447,-0.000913,0.000887,0.004902,0.002376,-0.00836,0.001607,-0.004437,-0.001205,0.001557
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5724,0.126344,0.152329,0.027907,0.006783,0.033237,-0.00753,0.006815,0.003923,0.01493,0.028976,-0.000162,0.008393,-0.009663,-0.00812,-0.007465,0.001458,-0.002086,0.007348,0.011816,-0.003377,-0.005989,0.011871,0.002095,-0.010724,0.000479
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5725,0.112685,0.153345,0.039221,0.006783,0.041238,0.005857,0.000705,-0.001846,0.01309,0.02606,-0.001624,0.010641,-0.010109,-0.009909,-0.001357,-0.002784,0.00326,0.005321,0,0.002751,-0.000624,-0.001978,-0.00912,-0.004097,0.002395
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5726,0.118376,0.15436,0.040729,-0.002907,0.03693,-0.005857,-0.003995,0.002538,0.014317,0.029522,-0.003248,0.005245,-0.010258,-0.015689,-0.001221,0.01485,0.021905,0.000253,-0.005028,0.005378,-0.001248,-0.003833,-0.006532,0.003615,-0.006826
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5727,0.124067,0.139128,0.048649,0.026486,0.040931,0.008646,0.00235,0.006,0.011658,0.017859,-0.001949,-0.000749,0.003568,-0.001651,-0.002443,0.000796,0.001173,-0.001647,0.004148,0.001126,0.001996,-0.003091,-0.008874,-0.003976,0.001437
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5728,0.124067,0.150298,0.04186,-0.004522,0.041546,-0.010598,0.00094,-0.000231,0.020657,0.0277,-0.002111,0.007943,-0.014123,0.003028,0.001221,-0.011535,-0.007823,0.000887,0.001383,0.001,-0.001747,0.014962,-0.005546,0.004217,-0.008502
Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5729,0.127482,0.149283,0.038466,0,0.032621,0.003626,0.001645,-0.003923,0.012476,0.024237,-0.005846,0.014237,-0.018434,-0.005367,-0.003529,0.000398,0.004563,0.00266,0.001885,-0.002126,0,0.000495,0.002835,-0.003735,-0.00455
Pakistan_Butkara,0.0599467,-0.0203103,-0.1306093,0.0803193,-0.087196,0.0472253,0.001645,0.003846,-0.005454,-6.07e-05,-0.0027063,-0.0017983,-0.004559,-0.005184,0.006198,0.0156897,0.0101263,-0.001605,0.0028073,-0.0067113,-0.0002497,-0.0084907,-0.0029167,-0.0037757,0.00475
Celtic-England,0.1324143,0.1289723,0.060339,0.0472657,0.035391,0.0190573,0.0055617,0.0018463,0.0049767,0.004313,-0.0033557,0.004396,-0.008622,-0.018304,0.017372,0.0154247,0.0068667,-0.0030827,0.0019277,0.0041687,0.003785,-0.0002063,-0.0037387,0.011086,0.0007587
Nordic,0.132035,0.125926,0.075801,0.068476,0.044931,0.026495,0.011281,0.006,0.002454,-0.010752,-0.003085,0.003297,-0.007433,0.002752,0.020358,-0.007955,-0.02021,0.006334,0.00817,0.006378,0.002995,0.000866,0.002465,0.007712,0.00455
Caucasian,0.09675,0.090382,-0.021873,0.044574,-0.03693,0.026495,0.00282,-0.001846,-0.046018,-0.038452,-0.003248,0.003297,-0.000743,-0.020919,0.021444,0.020817,-0.009127,-0.000887,-0.002891,-0.00963,-0.000374,-0.001855,-0.000123,0.009399,0.001796
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688,0.122929,0.161469,0.02489,-0.028101,0.028005,-0.015618,0.004935,0.001846,0.000409,0.019499,-0.000974,0.01139,-0.016799,-0.004266,-0.006786,-0.016441,-0.009518,0.004054,0.005028,-0.007253,-0.013601,0.009398,-0.005176,0.011086,-0.007065
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690,0.125205,0.149283,0.034318,-0.00646,0.029544,-0.005857,-0.001175,0.004846,-0.00225,0.019681,0.001461,0.002698,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.003122,0.002121,0.001825,0.003167,0.002011,-0.002501,-0.007861,0.003462,0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005269
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692,0.125205,0.152329,0.025644,-0.010336,0.019388,0.001116,-0.008695,0.003461,0.006136,0.025878,0.007145,0.010641,-0.018583,-0.00234,-0.011536,-0.006099,0.008605,0.00038,0.009679,-0.004877,-0.010981,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.012411,0.003113
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251,0.124067,0.144205,0.018102,-0.019703,0.025851,-0.003347,0.002115,0.008077,0.000205,0.022233,-0.000974,0.005095,-0.017096,-0.017753,-0.013301,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.003294,0.010182,-0.013006,-0.000125,0.005441,-0.007148,-0.001687,-0.004431
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253,0.130897,0.156392,0.034318,-0.010982,0.035083,-0.000279,0.002115,0.001846,0.0045,0.029158,0.008931,0.015436,-0.024083,-0.001927,-0.012893,0.000796,0.012647,0.008361,0.011816,-0.009505,-0.011355,-0.002349,-0.003944,0.008917,-0.007185
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254,0.120652,0.157407,0.039598,-0.006137,0.031698,-0.011992,0.00705,-0.014076,-0.011044,0.033896,-0.002761,0.001349,-0.018137,-0.005918,-0.010586,-0.007558,0.021774,0.00076,-0.009176,-0.013256,-0.006988,-0.003215,-0.010846,0.01446,-0.008382
Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256,0.118376,0.151314,0.02489,-0.005491,0.034468,-0.001673,0.00188,-0.003231,0,0.018406,0.005359,-0.000599,-0.013379,-0.014863,-0.006107,0.013392,0.034943,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.010255,0.01148,0.005812,-0.00037,0.005181,-0.009101
Illyrian:ALB_MBA:I8471,0.124067,0.144205,0.017725,0.000323,0.03416,-0.019801,0.00564,-0.012461,0.011658,0.034078,0.003248,0.004346,-0.005352,-0.022432,-0.008822,0.004243,0.026989,-0.007475,0.001885,0.006128,-0.000873,0.006059,0.007765,0.010724,0.008143
Balto-Slavic,0.135449,0.121864,0.095789,0.092055,0.055395,0.035698,0.014101,0.031845,0.000818,-0.039181,0.003897,-0.017534,0.043558,0.041149,-0.002579,-0.002917,-0.004563,0.006714,-0.00729,0.001376,0.012104,-0.011005,0.018734,-0.011086,-0.002155
Slavic,0.129432857,0.125925714,0.073592429,0.065338286,0.041194286,0.024861286,0.011414857,0.010054429,2.92857E-05,-0.020046,-0.002667714,-0.005695,0.013549286,0.023513714,-0.010993286,-0.001894143,3.71429E-05,-0.000416429,0.004794571,0.003037143,-0.001033857,-0.005776143,0.008345714,-0.006850857,0.000906571
```

----------


## torzio

Distance to:	Veritus_scaled
0.03211889	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10385
0.03359832	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5728
0.03371179	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I3313
0.03493691	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5724
0.03512270	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14690
0.03625781	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5723
0.03638883	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10384
0.03658043	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5729
0.03829119	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10390
0.03845144	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5725
0.04105698	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.04293207	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10388
0.04317831	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16251
0.04327667	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14688
0.04448414	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10391
0.04709439	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16253
0.04772646	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5727
0.05230295	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10387
0.05234124	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10381
0.05384072	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I8112
0.05783486	Illyrian:HRV_IA:I5726
0.05809965	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10389
0.05995127	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16254
0.06079857	Ancient-Macedonian:MKD_Anc:I10383
0.06375470	Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I16256


Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0126% / 0.01258736
39.2	Ancient-Macedonian
38.2	Illyrian
19.2	Nordic
2.3	Balto-Slavic
1.1	Pakistan_Butkara

----------


## matadworf

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.0711% / 0.02071058

73.2
Ancient-Macedonian



13.0
Thracian



8.4
Caucasian



4.6
Balto-Slavic



0.8
Pakistan_Butkara



Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 2.0711% / 0.02071058

73.2
Ancient-Macedonian



13.0
Thracian



8.4
Caucasian



4.6
Balto-Slavic



0.8
Pakistan_Butkara

----------


## cybernautic

> The Illyrians were very close genetically to Macedonians and both survived much more than the ancient Greeks.


Buahaha i need to laugh hard and loud.^

----------


## Wanderer

> I always though of the Paeonians as Thracians, or a Thraco-Illyrian mix of some sort. Some scholars also attested to the fact that they were closely connected to the Greeks as well. According to Homer they were related to the Phrygians living in Northern Greece. The Phrygians were dislocated by the Ancient Macedonians, and they migrated to Anatolia. But remains of the Phrygian language in Anatolia indicate that it was closely related to Greek in many respects. The Paeonians were certainly not Ancient Macedonians as they fought with them regularly. But they could have been biologically related to Greeks in general. 
> In any case, based on all researches so far, North IA Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians and the like plot closer to modern Greeks (and Italians, Albanians) than Mycenaeans. So either Mycenaeans + some Slavic is indicative of these populations, or there was an Ancient migration from that area to Greece at some point of time.


Thats why I asked about the phrygian tombs and if anyone has dna on it.

Heres one
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedi...-gordion-tomb/

----------


## Angela

A_Question, who is clearly a sock of enter_tain is permanently banned. Since enter_tain is constantly trying to evade his 2 month suspension, he is now also permanently banned. 

Good job, buddy. Do you make such horrible choices in every part of your life?

Are there no sane members of our Albanian community here who have any influence on these loons? Do you think I want to spend part of my Saturday dealing with this stuff?

----------


## Poxy

Certainly, the hypothesis that the northern Balkans migrated south and mixed with the Greeks sounds more plausible to me than the hypothesis that the Slavs mixed directly with the Greeks.

----------


## mount123

> A_Question, who is clearly a sock of enter_tain is permanently banned. Since enter_tain is constantly trying to evade his 2 month suspension, he is now also permanently banned. 
> 
> Good job, buddy. Do you make such horrible choices in every part of your life?
> 
> Are there no sane members of our Albanian community here who have any influence on these loons? Do you think I want to spend part of my Saturday dealing with this stuff?


He has opened an incredible amount of 9 puppet accounts with the same content last time I was active on this page and as it seems another what 5 or 6? Not sure what one calls this behavior but there surely is an underlying psychological issue. Apart from reporting them I did not know of a better way to contribute here.

----------


## Wanderer

[spoiler]
Kit number: M658611, Elapsed time: 9.62 seconds.




Population 
Amerindian- 
Arabian0.48 Pct
Armenian- 
Basque1.03 Pct
Central_African- 
Central_Euro- 
East_African- 
East_Asian- 
East_Balkan- 
East_Central_Asian- 
East_Central_Euro- 
East_Med12.79 Pct
Eastern_Euro- 
Fennoscandian- 
French- 
Iberian14.62 Pct
Indo-Chinese- 
Italian33.01 Pct
Malayan- 
Near_Eastern7.24 Pct
North_African7.43 Pct
North_Atlantic- 
North_Caucasian- 
North_Sea- 
Northeast_African- 
Oceanian0.6 Pct
Omotic- 
Pygmy- 
Siberian- 
South_Asian- 
South_Central_Asian- 
South_Chinese- 
Volga-Ural- 
West_African2.79 Pct
West_Caucasian- 
West_Med19.99

number: M572712, Elapsed time: 10.17 seconds.
[/spoiler]

North_African7.43 Pct
[Spoiler]

Population 
Amerindian- 
Arabian2.59 Pct
Armenian- 
Basque0.7 Pct
Central_African- 
Central_Euro- 
East_African- 
East_Asian- 
East_Balkan- 
East_Central_Asian- 
East_Central_Euro- 
East_Med17.76 Pct
Eastern_Euro- 
Fennoscandian- 
French- 
Iberian7.8 Pct
Indo-Chinese- 
Italian35.1 Pct
Malayan- 
Near_Eastern8.08 Pct
North_African3.8 Pct
North_Atlantic- 
North_Caucasian- 
North_Sea- 
Northeast_African- 
Oceanian- 
Omotic- 
Pygmy- 
Siberian- 
South_Asian- 
South_Central_Asian- 
South_Chinese- 
Volga-Ural- 
West_African- 
West_Caucasian- 
West_Med24.14
[/spoiler]
Arabian2.59 + North_African3.8 Pct = 6.47

----------


## Angela

WOW!

I just can't get over the persuasiveness of your arguments.

----------


## Wanderer

> WOW!
> 
> I just can't get over the persuasiveness of your arguments.


You have ancient kits I can test?

----------


## bigsnake49

Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using. 

BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.

----------


## Dorian9

> Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using. 
> 
> BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.


The samples he posted are from Neolithic Greece.Other than that Egyptiotes do not have such deep origins there ,they're a post 18th century community with Greeks from all over the Greek world like Western Anatolia ones ,on average it's certain they don't have non-Greek admix just like the latter.Individually when there is ,it will be known because it will be recent.

----------


## Angela

> Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using. 
> 
> BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.


What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?

First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most. 

In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.

Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent. 

You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?

Perhaps you're thinking of the Copts? That too is a separate religion. In the Ottoman Empire, from things I read about the situation in Palestine, marriages had to be performed by the clergyman of your religion. So, since you needed their approval, there literally was no way for people of different religious faiths to marry. The few who managed it had to go abroad and get married in civil ceremonies there.

It's amazing to me that you post these fantasies as unequivocal fact.

----------


## Dorian9

> What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?


I don't know his ideology but it didn't seem to me that his comment came from such place , rather he wanted to explain these components for what he thought was a modern person but thing is these K36 components are meaningless and although I'm not very familiar with them it's obvious that if a neolithic scores them ,there will be moderns that will score more than those..and that without having to come from some recent community outside of Greece.Btw regarding Copts there is a half Egyptiote Greek half Copt in 23andme but yeah it wouldn't be near the norm.

Also to add something else ,although you are right about endogamy in the past and certain mentalities ,this is not the case in modern times.This is from Australia imgur . com / KFYz9Xf . png (and I don't think it will be very different in any other country) ,it will not be too long before these communities disappear and become fully assimilated.

----------


## Angela

^^Clearly you haven't read his posts on numerous threads on the same topic.As for whether this endogamy is dying out or how quickly it's dying out, perhaps it depends on the location and the size of the Greek community in that area.

I can tell you that in the greater Metropolitan area of New York and more specifically New York City and Long Island there are large numbers of Greek Americans, and a good number of them still center a lot of their social life around their church, and practice endogamy. 

In fact, of all the "newer" immigrants to the U.S., (post late 19th century) they practice it the most. Italians are very different. Of all my 23 first cousins on my father's side, only 4, including me, married someone of Italian descent. Those are definitely "not" the statistics I see in the Greek community around me.

----------


## Wanderer

> Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using. 
> 
> BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.


You know some ancient greek and egyptian kits I can run on gedmatch?

----------


## Wanderer

> What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?
> 
> First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most. 
> 
> In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.
> 
> Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent. 
> 
> You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?
> ...


Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?

North africans also have european ancestry.

----------


## Angela

> Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?
> 
> North africans also have european ancestry.


Some may indeed have admixed in the Iron Age and the Imperial Era, particularly in light of the fact that both were polytheists and until Constantine the Empire didn't concern itself with who married whom.

The point is that evert era is different; you have to know the time period and its history in these matters.

So, as I said, it may well have happened to a certain degree, but whole sale admixing? I tend to think not given the fact that there was a lot of enmity between the three major groups who lived, for example, in Alexandria. 

The Jews, the Greeks, and the Egyptians each had their own quarter of the city. There were constant brawls and sometimes so much violence between them that it was difficult for the Romans to maintain order in the city, as absolute chaos would ensue. 

Think of the Palestinians and Jews with their own areas of Jerusalem, or the Protestant Ulstermen and Catholics of Northern Island. In the latter case, they are both Christians, just different versions, and the same race. In fact, even they can't distinguish amongst themselves by looks alone. The Protestants in the Republic of Ireland are another case in point. They've been in Ireland since the 1630s, but inter-marriage between members of the two groups was a rare scandal until a few decades ago.

It's a very big mistake to try to impose the values of the 21st century onto the people of the past. A knowledge of history, as well as archaeology, must be brought to bear on any conclusions.

----------


## torzio

> Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?
> 
> North africans also have european ancestry.



more Greek in libya than Egypt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya

----------


## Wanderer

> more Greek in libya than Egypt
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mino...m_Tell_el-Daba

----------


## bigsnake49

> What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?
> 
> First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most. 
> 
> In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.
> 
> Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent. 
> 
> You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?
> ...


Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.

I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.

Here is also this: 
*
"By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."**[15]"

https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt


*

----------


## Jovialis

> Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.
> 
> I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.
> 
> Here is also this: 
> *
> "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."**[15]"
> 
> https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt
> ...


Those sources are not genetic studies, and it is from an art book from the year 2000, so there's no chance they could have any meaningful scope on the topic of genetic mixing with ancient people.

----------


## Jovialis

Just because your personal experience is different, does not negate the fact that Maniotes and eastern Peloponnesians are quite similar to the Ancient Greeks. That doesn't make them _better_ than Greeks who have 30% Slavic admixture; it just is what it is.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Those sources are not genetic studies, and it is from an art book from the year 2000, so there's no chance they could have any meaningful scope on the topic of genetic mixing with ancient people.


Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ? All I am saying is that there were Greek outposts all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Some of them were very far away from Greece and by necessity could not send home for brides. So they married local women. Now if you are talking about large self sustaining colonies like Siracusa or Taranto maybe they could marry within the Greek community.

----------


## Jovialis

> Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ?


Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?

It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're _black_ in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.

Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?
> 
> It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're _black_ in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.
> 
> Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.


I said up to 30%. Look, modern Greeks are an amalgam of different admixed people. We had a lot of immigrants from Pontos, from Eastern and Northern Thrace, the Greek communities of Western Anatolia, Constantinople, Egypt and some communities on the Black Sea. People from the Eastern Thrace area if they are anywhere like me would score around 60-70% Greek and the rest Balkan, whether the Balkan is slavic or an earlier substrate. That does not mean that there are no Greeks that score higher than that but I know there are Greeks that score less than that. The small town I was born in was 90% Arvanites that came over from Eastern Thrace so they might score less. There are Albanians that emigrated from Albania in the last few decades that obtained Greek citizenship. But we are all Greeks now no matter where our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers used to live. There is intermarriage among the Pontic Greeks and the Arvanites, the Peloponnesian's and the Thracians, the Cretans and Smyrniotes, the Egyptiotes and the Thessalians. In couple of generations there will be just traces of other ethnicities. Our biggest cities are our melting pots.

----------


## Dianatomia

> Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?
> 
> It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're _black_ in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.
> 
> Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.


Americans with 30% SSA ancestry are also considered black. And the average of SSA American who is 70% African does not even speak an African language, nor do they inhabit the continent of Africa, nor do they have a continuous litterary tradition. 

Modern Greeks being so close to Mycenaeans overall was one of the key discoveries of the last five years in paleogenetics. And still the burden we put on Greeks proving their continuation with Mycenaeans is relatively high. Quite sure there was genetic variety within the Classical Greek world. Greeks from Ancient Epirus, Thrace, Ionia and Cyprus were most likely not entirely similar during Classical times. They most likely did not overlap with Mycenaeans. So why put the burden on all Greeks today being similar to Bronze Age Mycenaeans?

----------


## Jovialis

> _Modern Italians, with the exception of Sardinians, are very different from the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from the same area, with some resemblance only in Iron Age samples [44]. A notable exception is the fact that the Iron Age Southern Italians here investigated do not overlap with the genetic variation observed in modern-day individuals from the same area, in line with previous observations [35]. Interestingly, three out of the five Neolithic Peloponnesians, together with the totality of Minoans and Mycenaeans included in our dataset, plot towards the genetic variability of people currently inhabiting Southern Peloponnese (Maniots and Tsakonians) and Southern Italian regions (Sicily, Calabria and Apulia) (Fig. 2B). Modern Southern Italians are closer to Southern European Neolithic and Bronze Age samples (Neolithic Peloponnesians and Minoans) than most modern Peloponnesian groups, with the exception of the Deep Mani and Taygetos individuals (Fig. 2B).
> _
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...501?via%3Dihub


You won't find people closer to the neolithic people of Greece than Deep Mani and Taygetos. With Sicily, Calabria, and Apulia as a close second.

I hope this puts an end to the discussion of the thread. But odds are, some will be obstinate.

----------


## Jovialis

> Americans with 30% SSA ancestry are also considered black. And the average of SSA American who is 70% African does not even speak an African language, nor do they inhabit the continent of Africa, nor do they have a continuous litterary tradition. 
> 
> Modern Greeks being so close to Mycenaeans overall was one of the key discoveries of the last five years in paleogenetics. *And still the burden we put on Greeks proving their continuation with Mycenaeans is relatively high.* Quite sure there was genetic variety within the Classical Greek world. Greeks from Ancient Epirus, Thrace, Ionia and Cyprus were most likely not entirely similar during Classical times. They most likely did not overlap with Mycenaeans. So why put the burden on all Greeks today being similar to Bronze Age Mycenaeans?


This burden is purely manufactured by people wishing to hijack their ancestry. First by the Philhellenes, then by the Nazis, and now by obscure incel losers on the internet. I would throw woke people in there too, but they are trying to deny all European people of their identity and sense of belonging, as a tenant of the global guidelines for aDNA research; explicitly so.

----------


## eupator

> Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.
> 
> I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.
> 
> Here is also this: 
> *
> "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."**[15]"
> 
> https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt
> ...



Bravo! Well said!


For the ancient Athenians:


*“Έλληνας καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ...”

"Greeks are those who have a Greek education ..."


Isocrates,* Panigyricus 50.

----------


## Jovialis

> This burden is purely manufactured by people wishing to hijack their ancestry. First by the Philhellenes, then by the Nazis, and now by obscure incel losers on the internet. I would throw woke people in there too, but they are trying to deny all European people of their identity and sense of belonging, as a tenant of the global guidelines for aDNA research; explicitly so.


Razib Khan has a great article on the topic:

https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...s-to-me-part-1

https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...s-to-me-part-2

Hitler himself had a fascination with proving that the ancient Greeks were Nordic, and was actually annoyed by the Nazi research focus on Northern Europe:

_Of course, this thinking fed into the ideology that justified Nazi racial history, which synthesized the valorization of ancient Greece that was the norm in 19th-century Germany with scientifically concocted racial theories. While some in the Nazi elite sought to confirm the glories of the Aryan race through an archaeological and ethnographic investigation of Northern Europe, Heather Pringle in The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust reports that Adolf Hitler himself had only contempt for these endeavors. Heinrich Himmler, leader of the SS, exulted in the recovery of ancient clay pots in Scandinavia, but Hitler was insistent that the most outstanding achievements of the fair-haired Aryans had occurred in the Mediterranean, where the Nordic race had been invigorated by the healthful influence of the bright southern sun that unleashed their cultural dynamism, blossoming into the glories of Rome and Greece._

----------


## Jovialis

> Bravo! Well said!
> 
> 
> For the ancient Athenians:
> 
> 
> *“Έλληνας καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ...”
> 
> "Greeks are those who have a Greek education ..."
> ...


This guy born in 436 BC. I don't see how this is different from someone like Joe Biden today saying anyone with a U.S. passport is an American. Clearly, the original Americans were Anglo-Saxon stock.

Of course when we are talking about Greeks, we are speaking of the people who are indigenous to Bronze age Greece. We know from the Southern Arc paper, that they are a 1:10 ratio between Minoan and Yamnaya.

----------


## eupator

> Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ? All I am saying is that there were Greek outposts all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Some of them were very far away from Greece and by necessity could not send home for brides. So they married local women. Now if you are talking about large self sustaining colonies like Siracusa or Taranto maybe they could marry within the Greek community.



And for modern Greeks I would add (in a quote by Glykatzi - Arveler):

"Ουδέποτε το όνομα Έλλην ξαναβρήκε όλη του την αίγλη, αλλά το Ρωμηός, Ρωμαίος, σήμαινε Έλληνας το γένος και τη γλώσσα, η οποία γλώσσα ήταν γραικική και τα ήθη ρωμαϊκά ..."

"The name Hellene never regained all its glory (mine: since antiquity), but Rhomeos, Rhoman, meant Greek in the genos and language, which language was Greek and manners (mine: tradition) Rhoman ..."

The Greeks were (Eastern) Rhomans but not all (Eastern) Rhomans were strictly Greek.

But, all together, their descendants, the modern Greeks, is the Orthodox nation of Jesus Christ, and their language is Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament.



Edit:

Edit: This popular rendition of the Medieval poem encapsulates perfectly the essence of what it means to be modern Greek:

----------


## Bill7

There's definitely been mixing nowadays in Greece but it's still not as frequent as you make it to be. I'm 20 years old and the vast majority of my friends relatives and other people I come regularly in touch with are still pretty much "pure" Greeks. Although of course there's been mixing one of my closest friends is half ukrano polish for example and I live in the 3rd largest city of Greece

----------


## bigsnake49

> There's definitely been mixing nowadays in Greece but it's still not as frequent as you make it to be. I'm 20 years old and the vast majority of my friends relatives and other people I come regularly in touch with are still pretty much "pure" Greeks. Although of course there's been mixing one of my closest friends is half ukrano polish for example and I live in the 3rd largest city of Greece


My one sister who is Thracian married a mainland Greek from Aitoloakarnania the other married a man from Chalkidiki. So people don't necessarily marry people from their villages and small towns they marry people from other areas. My uncle married an Arvanite woman. People are not just marrying other people from their insular community.

----------


## Dianatomia

> My one sister who is Thracian married a mainland Greek from Aitoloakarnania the other married a man from Chalkidiki. So people don't necessarily marry people from their villages and small towns they marry people from other areas. My uncle married an Arvanite woman. People are not just marrying other people from their insular community.


Ofcourse, regionalism is in decline all over Europe. But at much faster speed compared to what it was decades ago. Greece is no exception. Back in the day there weren't even roads to connect different locations. People were isolated in their own micro-cosmos. Confined by the mountains around them. They even had their own dishes and music. Some locations in Greece could only be reached through sea. And small islands were almost completely isolated. Now there are many millions of tourists annually from all over the world. There are highways on the mainland. You can get anywhere within hours of driving. You can meet anyone on a dating app.

----------


## Angela

> Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.
> 
> I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.
> 
> Here is also this: 
> *
> "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."**[15]"
> 
> https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt
> ...


We were discussing how much Greek admixture there might be in Egyptians of the Hellenistic Era, an era of which you seem to know very little in terms of its history. Didn't stop you from making dogmatic statements which are impossible to verify, as usual.

So you found a book by a Classics professor which seemed to support your position.

Actually, the place to go if you want to find out the genetic make up of Egyptians in the Hellenic and Roman Eras is to population geneticists, not Classics professors who are purely guessing.

It seems you forgot the paper which tested a 1200 year transect of time in an area near Fayum, Egypt, including the period of the Hellenic conquest.

See:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

Verena J. Schuenemann et al, with Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Strauss. 

"Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society55. Especially in the Roman Period there may have been significant legal and social incentives to marry within one’s ethnic group, as individthuals with Roman citizenship had to marry other Roman citizens to pass on their citizenship. Such policies are likely to have affected the intermarriage of Romans and non-Rniomans to a degree55"

Their findings support my conclusions on the matter, based on an understanding of the social relations between the different ethnic groups in Hellenic Egypt, which was that while there was probably some admixture between the Egyptians and the Greeks, it probably did not reach significant levels. In fact, they go further and point out a fact of which I was unaware, which was that once the Romans took control, there were even some civil impediments to inter-marriage, even with regard to Romans. 

I'd also like to point out that I don't appreciate your constant misrepresentation of the things which I said. This is a case in point; I never said that I thought there was no admixture in this instance. I SAID: there might indeed have been, but given the situation socially and culturally, I doubted it rose to significant levels. I leave the dogmatic statements of certainty with regard to what happened in the past to you. 

I would also point out that what you do continuously is use the social mores of the last few decades as a template for everything which happened in the past. That shows a complete lack of knowledge of history. You also judge all people's actions by your own or those of your friends. Again, I never said nor implied that all Greeks of the diaspora practice endogamy TODAY. I said: it probably depends very much on the area, i.e. the number of Greek-Americans, when they arrived etc. As with historical social behavior, it all depends on the unique circumstances of the individual situation. In terms of what I observe around me, many still practice endogamy, although some indeed do not. As another example from other immigrants to the U.S., the Northern Italian migrants to California at the time of the gold rush disappeared within a few generations as a disparate ethnic group. Why? Partly because they were a few among a sea of Anglos. However, if you go to Howard Beach in New York even today there are a lot of Italian-Americans of 100% Italian descent. Why? Partly, no doubt, because there are tens of thousands of Italian-Americans in one small part of one borough.

What I find disturbing is that you seem to look upon people who choose, for whatever reason, to marry within their own ethnicity with contempt. 

Stop drawing vast generalizations to fit your political persuasions. There's also nothing wrong with taking pride in one's ethnic identity.

----------


## Kuivamaa

Contemporary Greeks (I am native Greek, just to be clear), are the descendants of imperial populations of ERE (Eastern Roman Empire). So we very much are a fusion of Ancient Greek and Roman culture, merged within a medieval Christian framework. The Christian part is important because it generally meant that from the middle ages onwards, for the most part Greeks wouldn’t mix with non-Christians. Take Slavs for example. When they descended to Greece, being pagans (and greatly outnumbered ofc) they avoided cities and the heavily populated plains and coastal areas and settled in the mountains. They did not get absorbed to the general population before actually converting to christianity. Arvanites had no such problem and got assimilated fast.
Ottoman Muslims on the other hand, being the ruling class, never became Christians and the admixture was pretty much one way, Greeks getting absorbed into the ottoman pool. Once a Greek man would convert to Islam, he would be lost for his family or peers forever-Turkish history is full of politicians and military officers of Greek origins which are absolutely unknown to Greeks and unmentioned in the Greek history books even today. 
This trend continued for centuries. Even post Greek independence immigrants often actively tried to get a spouse that is Greek. I come from an area that consistently migrated to the states since the second half of 19th century, I have hundreds of American born relatives (I know it because my surname is unique and comes from a single village) including first cousins (I am distantly related to Maria Callas even). Some of the first to go there have 4th gen descendants now. My generation (last gen X/first millennials) are the first that actually do marry outside the Greek community in significant numbers. Up until my parents generation, people would either migrate married or seek wives from Greece, talking about as recent as late 70s here. In countries and areas that fewer Greeks existed the mixing was more widespread from the get go.

----------


## Jovialis

> We were discussing how much Greek admixture there might be in Egyptians of the Hellenistic Era, an era of which you seem to know very little in terms of its history. Didn't stop you from making dogmatic statements which are impossible to verify, as usual.
> 
> So you found a book by a Classics professor which seemed to support your position.
> 
> Actually, the place to go if you want to find out the genetic make up of Egyptians in the Hellenic and Roman Eras is to population geneticists, not Classics professors who are purely guessing.
> 
> It seems you forgot the paper which tested a 1200 year transect of time in an area near Fayum, Egypt, including the period of the Hellenic conquest.
> 
> See:
> ...


This seems to be an issue with a lot of liberals.

----------


## Jovialis

> The fact that Mycenaeans can be modeled as a mixture in an ~1:10 ratio of a Yamnaya like steppe-derived population and a Minoan or Early Bronze Age–like Aegean population...
> 
> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq0755


Comparing the _modeling_ of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians.



```
Yamnaya_Samara,29.22222222,2.065555556,0,0.171111111,4.561111111,58.40777778,1.35,0.025555556,0,0,3.558888889,0.638888889
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
```

----------


## Wanderer

> This seems to be an issue with a lot of liberals.


Im not liberal...

----------


## Wanderer

> Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?
> 
> It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're _black_ in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.
> 
> Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.


They are mixed race but predominantly african in ancestry.
In the US they went by a 1 drop rule which was illogical also.
In colonial era in other parts like haiti they would have been catagorized as giraffe in birth marriage and death records.

----------


## Jovialis

> Im not liberal...


Okay, I was referring to Bigsnake, but do you also have an issue with people who practice endogamy?

----------


## Jovialis

> They are mixed race but predominantly african in ancestry.
> In the US they went by a 1 drop rule which was illogical also.
> In colonial era in other parts like haiti they would have been catagorized as giraffe in birth marriage and death records.


It was ridiculous, but ultimately, it is irrelevant because they were benighted people who also believed Adam and Eve were _factually_ the first humans, and that modern people were descendants of Abraham. Even the Nazis had a more lenient classification for "Aryans".

----------


## Wanderer

> Okay, I was referring to Bigsnake, but do you also have an issue with people who practice endogamy?


I don't care. But its probably not a good practice to do in the long term. In my geneology i had people marry 2nd and 3rd cousins but thats because it was earlier in the colonial era and they more likely probably did it for political reasons or class reasons because they were related to military personnel. Not because they specifically were looking to practice endogamy.
But if it implies forcing people to marry ingroup than yes I think thats a problem.

----------


## bigsnake49

> We were discussing how much Greek admixture there might be in Egyptians of the Hellenistic Era, an era of which you seem to know very little in terms of its history. Didn't stop you from making dogmatic statements which are impossible to verify, as usual.
> 
> So you found a book by a Classics professor which seemed to support your position.
> 
> Actually, the place to go if you want to find out the genetic make up of Egyptians in the Hellenic and Roman Eras is to population geneticists, not Classics professors who are purely guessing.
> 
> It seems you forgot the paper which tested a 1200 year transect of time in an area near Fayum, Egypt, including the period of the Hellenic conquest.
> 
> See:
> ...


I'm all for people marrying within their own culture or not marrying within their own culture. When there are significant legal and religious and property based limits to marrying outside the tribe or religion they do not. But in the Ancient Greek religion, there was no prohibition against marrying outside the religion that I am aware off. In far colonies with small numbers of settlers they married outside the Greek community by necessity. In Siracusa because of the large numbers they did not, although if one wanted to there was not some onerous prohibition against it. 

With respect to the study you referenced:

Abusir el-Meleq’s proximity to, and close ties with, the Fayum are significant in the context of this study as the Fayum in particular saw a substantial growth in its population during the first hundred years of Ptolemaic rule, presumably as a result of Greek immigration33,43. Later, in the Roman Period, many veterans of the Roman army—who, initially at least, were not Egyptian but people from disparate cultural backgrounds—settled in the Fayum area after the completion of their service, *and formed social relations and intermarried with local populations*44

The part of the study you quoted is not based on any genetic info but is heavily depended on other non genetic articles. It contradicts the paragraph above.

I am proud of my culture and I probably would have married a Greek girl if I had fallen in love with one. Unfortunately the availability of Greek girls was rather limited.

----------


## bigsnake49

Endogamy was practiced in tribal societies. From my understanding of Albanian practices men were allowed to marry outside the fara (tribe) but women were not. Albanians please chime in if I understand the rule right. It is done to preserve land and wealth within the fara. My grandfather's village in Eastern Thrace was pretty small, about 600 souls. Fortunately they were not limited by mountains and they could marry and were actually encouraged to marry outside the village because within the village everybody was related. My first cousin had to check that the woman he intended to marry was not a second cousin (she was not, she was a third).

----------


## Angela

> I'm all for people marrying within their own culture or not marrying within their own culture. When there are significant legal and religious and property based limits to marrying outside the tribe or religion they do not. But in the Ancient Greek religion, there was no prohibition against marrying outside the religion that I am aware off. In far colonies with small numbers of settlers they married outside the Greek community by necessity. In Siracusa because of the large numbers they did not, although if one wanted to there was not some onerous prohibition against it. 
> 
> With respect to the study you referenced:
> 
> Abusir el-Meleq’s proximity to, and close ties with, the Fayum are significant in the context of this study as the Fayum in particular saw a substantial growth in its population during the first hundred years of Ptolemaic rule, presumably as a result of Greek immigration33,43. Later, in the Roman Period, many veterans of the Roman army—who, initially at least, were not Egyptian but people from disparate cultural backgrounds—settled in the Fayum area after the completion of their service, *and formed social relations and intermarried with local populations*44
> 
> The part of the study you quoted is not based on any genetic info but is heavily depended on other non genetic articles. It contradicts the paragraph above.
> 
> I am proud of my culture and I probably would have married a Greek girl if I had fallen in love with one. Unfortunately the availability of Greek girls was rather limited.


Please don't imply that I am misleading people. If you go back and check where my quote appears, you will see that is based on the genetic analysis.

----------


## bigsnake49

Jovialis, it's remarkable that Modern Italians are 3 times closer to Ancient Greeks than the first Modern Greek.

----------


## Jovialis

> Jovialis, it's remarkable that Modern Italians are 3 times closer to Ancient Greeks than the first Modern Greek.


Though it is possible that Maniot and Taygetos are even closer.

But also, the Southern Arc paper did mention that the Mycenaean_-like_ profile also existed in Thrace at the time as well. Basically, they were similar, but not _the_ Mycenaean. So It is possible that Puglia, among other areas of Southern Italy also had a Mycenaean-_like_ population, that was further maintained by Greek colonists. Furthermore, it more likely that Northwestern influences account for the "Northern ancestry" in Apulia (i.e. Bell Beakers--->Italics), rather than straight-up Yamnaya. There is also the influence of Cetina culture, which was similar to modern Northern Italians. One thing I believe is far more likely, is that the "Southern" ancestry in Apulia is likely attributed to early Bronze-Age Aegean-like/Minoan-like peoples.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Please don't imply that I am misleading people. If you go back and check where my quote appears, you will see that is based on the genetic analysis.


First let's address you assertion that it was based on genetic analysis. Within the paragraph you quoted there were two references to other sources. One, reference 55 is "Vandorpe, K. _Idnetity in Roman Egypt, 260–276 (Oxford University Press, 2012)." Not a genetics article._ The second reference is "Rathbone, D. W. Villages, land and population in Graeco-Roman Egypt. _Proc. Cambridge Philolog. Soc. 36, 103–142 (1990).Also not a genetics article._

From further up in the article"

"On the one hand, the interpretation of literary and archaeological sources is often complicated by selective representation and preservation and the fact that markers of foreign identity, such as, *for example, Greek or Latin names and ethnics, quickly became ‘status symbols’ and were adopted by natives and foreigners alike"
*
It seems that there was a loss of archaeological context in the recovered mummies. The authors also come to that conclusion:' This lack of context greatly diminishes the possibility of ‘thick description’ of the analysed individuals, at least in terms of their names, titles and materially expressed identity."

Here's also what I found in the article: 

Importantly, there is evidence for foreign influence at Abusir el-Meleq. Individuals with Greek, Latin and Hebrew names are known to have lived at the site and several coffins found at the cemetery used Greek portrait image and adapted Greek statue types to suit ‘Egyptian’ burial practices2,45. The site’s first excavator, Otto Rubensohn, also found a Greek grave inscription in stone as well as a writing board inscribed in Greek46. Taken together with the multitude of Greek papyri that were written at the site, this evidence strongly suggests that at least some inhabitants of Abusir el-Meleq were literate in, and able to speak, Greek45. However, a general issue concerning the site is that several details of the context of the individuals analysed in this study were lost over time. All of the material was excavated by Rubensohn in the early twentieth century, whose main interest was to obtain literary papyri from cartonnage rather than to excavate human remains"

In their conclusions, here's what the authors said:

"Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society"

So the article you quoted adds no genetic answer to the question of Greek population in Egypt in the Ptolemaic and post ptolemaic eras. Further studies might.

----------


## Jovialis

> Though it is possible that Maniot and Taygetos are even closer.
> 
> But also, the Southern Arc paper did mention that the Mycenaean_-like_ profile also existed in Thrace at the time as well. Basically, they were similar, but not _the_ Mycenaean. So It is possible that Puglia, among other areas of Southern Italy also had a Mycenaean-_like_ population, that was further maintained by Greek colonists. Furthermore, it more likely that Northwestern influences account for the "Northern ancestry" in Apulia (i.e. Bell Beakers--->Italics), rather than straight-up Yamnaya. There is also the influence of Cetina culture, which was similar to modern Northern Italians. One thing I believe is far more likely, is that the "Southern" ancestry in Apulia is likely attributed to early Bronze-Age Aegean-like/Minoan-like peoples.

----------


## Angela

Too close cousin marriage is also forbidden within the Catholic tradition. The rule is that 3rd cousin and beyond is OK, but not second, or especially first cousins. It's one of the reasons that the Council of Trent required that all marriages and births be recorded in the parish of the mother. 

In my mother's area, which was in the foothills of the Apennines, there was more out marriage, with Tuscans, Ligurians from near France etc.

My father's area, high atop the Apennines in the province of Parma, was accessible only on foot or by mule until the 1920s. The "marriage circle" was the other villages high in the Apennines. The priests did check to see if the would-be partners were within the prohibited level, but in reality, after 700 years in the same general area with only a few new arrivals per hundred years, I'm sure they were more related than that. That's why Cavalli-Sforza used them for his seminal works on drift in isolated populations. It's also why I became so interested in population genetics; I read an article by him on my father's villages in a biology class. Thank goodness for my father's people that by chance the founder populations didn't seem to carry very many deleterious recessive genes, or there would have been a lot of dangerous diseases and anomalies up there. 

Still, a young man and woman, second cousins of my paternal grandmother, but first cousins to each other, sought a dispensation and got one, goodness knows why. Most of their children died at birth or shortly thereafter or were infertile as adults. Only two of the 12 reached adulthood healthy and fertile. They were the cautionary tale I heard repeated over and over again as I grew up, especially because as one of 24 first cousins, all of whom played together all the time and grew up together, I suppose they were worried that attractions could occur. I certainly had what in retrospect was probably a "crush" on my very handsome older cousin, who looked a lot like my father in youth. Of course, one outgrows these things even if one can't name what they are, exactly at the time.

What I find very interesting, however, are the numerous papers, the latest of which was from Scandinavia, showing that some "closeness" in ancestry is actually beneficial. What the scientists found from studying genealogical records from hundreds of years into the past was that while first and second cousin marriages adversely affected fertility and disease risk, i.e. "genetic fitness", the offspring of totally unrelated couples also were less "fit". The most "fit" offspring were the products of third cousin mating. The speculation is that it has something to do with immune system compatibility as one of many possibilities. 

There's an old, sexist saying in Italian: moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Wives and oxen from your own village. (Sounds better in Italian because it rhymes.) They didn't know about genes, but they knew certain families ran to certain traits, and that certain marriages had more "luck" where children were concerned. You knew what you were getting, i.e. the bloodlines, the way you would know them about your horses, oxen, dogs etc. and it applied to men too, with marriage into certain male lines being frowned upon. Of course, nowadays, the ability to conceive and bear twelve or more healthy children isn't the boon it used to be. My handsome cousin wound up marrying one of our third cousins. She was very devout, so no birth control, and, to her dismay she joked that all he had to do was get into bed for her to get pregnant. She had seven beautiful, healthy, very intelligent children, but he went grey before his time trying to support them. 

This constant "re-passing" of the same genes, especially in rural areas in the era before cars, trains, planes etc. is part of the reason that we see the continuity that we do.

----------


## Angela

> First let's address you assertion that it was based on genetic analysis. Within the paragraph you quoted there were two references to other sources. One, reference 55 is "Vandorpe, K. _Idnetity in Roman Egypt, 260–276 (Oxford University Press, 2012)." Not a genetics article._ The second reference is "Rathbone, D. W. Villages, land and population in Graeco-Roman Egypt. _Proc. Cambridge Philolog. Soc. 36, 103–142 (1990).Also not a genetics article._
> 
> From further up in the article"
> 
> "On the one hand, the interpretation of literary and archaeological sources is often complicated by selective representation and preservation and the fact that markers of foreign identity, such as, *for example, Greek or Latin names and ethnics, quickly became ‘status symbols’ and were adopted by natives and foreigners alike"
> *
> It seems that there was a loss of archaeological context in the recovered mummies. The authors also come to that conclusion:' This lack of context greatly diminishes the possibility of ‘thick description’ of the analysed individuals, at least in terms of their names, titles and materially expressed identity."
> 
> Here's also what I found in the article: 
> ...


Now you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings of the paper. 


""The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied," said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute.
This period covered the rule of Alexander the Great (332-323 B.C.), the Ptolemaic dynasty (323-30 B.C.) and part of Roman rule (30 B.C.-A.D. 641). Strict social structures and legal incentives to marry along ethnic lines within these communities may have played a part in the Egyptians' genetic stasis, the paper speculates."

"A lot of people had assumed foreign invaders ... brought a lot of genetic ancestry into the region," Krause said. "People expected that through time, Egypt would become more European, but we see the exact opposite."
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/healt...age/index.html

Now, if you had said maybe it was different in the Delta, or the sample size was too small, you'd have points with which I could agree, but you posted what is either stupid or a prevarication.

You once boasted how you aced the SATS while barely studying, or some such. Give me leave to doubt if you can't read a scientific paper and understand what it's saying, and need it summarized and dumbed down by the authors for you to get it.

That or you're a completely dishonest poster here.

Either way, try to misrepresent the findings of this study one more time and your posting privileges will be suspended. Am I clear?

----------


## Angela

> Though it is possible that Maniot and Taygetos are even closer.
> 
> *But also, the Southern Arc paper did mention that the Mycenaean-like profile also existed in Thrace at the time as well.* Basically, they were similar, but not _the_ Mycenaean. So It is possible that Puglia, among other areas of Southern Italy also had a Mycenaean-_like_ population, that was further maintained by Greek colonists. Furthermore, it more likely that Northwestern influences account for the "Northern ancestry" in Apulia (i.e. Bell Beakers--->Italics), rather than straight-up Yamnaya. There is also the influence of Cetina culture, which was similar to modern Northern Italians. One thing I believe is far more likely, is that the "Southern" ancestry in Apulia is likely attributed to early Bronze-Age Aegean-like/Minoan-like peoples.


I don't know if you're aware of it, but on the Albanian threads there is in some members an absolute refusal to accept that finding of the paper. 

It's beyond me, but there you have it.

----------


## Jovialis

> I don't know if you're aware of it, but on the Albanian threads there is in some members an absolute refusal to accept that finding of the paper. 
> 
> It's beyond me, but there you have it.


I just look at those threads like a jumble of nonsense, like the ramblings of a psychopath.

----------


## eupator

Ancient Greek colonisers took local women, sometimes after killing the male population that disagreed, that is a common theme in their relevant ethnography/history.

In Byzantine times, the ethnos was united under the Faith, and language secondary, the Eastern Roman state machine was a behemoth of absorption and assimilation. A lot of the Emperors themselves, even the most successful ones, were often of very diverse backgrounds, not just Greek, like Armenians, Isaurians, Thracians and Illyrians and other Balkaners, Iberians (Spain) and the list goes on. Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty who beat the Bulgars with his reconquista was paternally Armenian and maternally Bulgarian (the opposite mix to Samuel - his mortal enemy), Theodosius was Iberian, the Comnenians were part Thracian part Anatolian (or entirely Thracian depending on the source), Leon the 3rd was part Syrian/part Anatolian (again either/or in some sources) and so on ...

I don't see what the big deal is, these things are known for ages.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Ancient Greek colonisers took local women, sometimes after killing the male population that disagreed, that is a common theme in their relevant ethnography/history.
> 
> In Byzantine times, the ethnos was united under the Faith, and language secondary, the Eastern Roman state machine was a behemoth of absorption and assimilation. A lot of the Emperors themselves, even the most successful ones, were often of very diverse backgrounds, not just Greek, like Armenians, Isaurians, Thracians and Illyrians and other Balkaners, Iberians (Spain) and the list goes on. Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty who beat the Bulgars with his reconquista was paternally Armenian and maternally Bulgarian (the opposite mix to Samuel - his mortal enemy), Theodosius was Iberian, the Comnenians were part Thracian part Anatolian (or entirely Thracian depending on the source), Leon the 3rd was part Syrian/part Anatolian (again either/or in some sources) and so on ...
> 
> I don't see what the big deal is, these things are known for ages.


If I am not mistaken, there was not one Greek (from Greece) Byzantine emperor (although the Byzanties never called themselves Byzantines, they called themselves Romans).

The Byzantine emperors like the Roman emperors moved populations around to counteract depopulation due to wars, famine and disease or rebellions. For example what people call the Slavic invasion might not have been an invasion at all. The Justinian plague decimated the urban centers of the empire. Justinian needed people that paid taxes so although he originally used the Avars to block the Slavs, he warmed up to the idea of them repopulating the Balkans. Georgios Kardaras has some fascinating monographs about the relation of Avars, Slavs and the Byzantine emperors and the truly "byzantine" machinations of the imperial court.

----------


## Kuivamaa

> If I am not mistaken, there was not one Greek (from Greece) Byzantine emperor (although the Byzanties never called themselves Byzantines, they called themselves Romans).
> The Byzantine emperors like the Roman emperors moved populations around to counteract depopulation due to wars, famine and disease or rebellions. For example what people call the Slavic invasion might not have been an invasion at all. The Justinian plague decimated the urban centers of the empire. Justinian needed people that paid taxes so although he originally used the Avars to block the Slavs, he warmed up to the idea of them repopulating the Balkans. Georgios Kardaras has some fascinating monographs about the relation of Avars, Slavs and the Byzantine emperors and the truly "byzantine" machinations of the imperial court.


There were several ethnic Greek emperors (starting from Maurice if we ignore those that were Greek on their mother’s side ) and the core Greek areas back then stretched from Ionian Sea all the way east of Capadocia, so singling out the area from contemporary Greece as not producing emperors is nonsensical. And also inaccurate. From the top of my head, Empress Irene of Athens, is a very famous example. Michael I was from a Greek family with origins in Salonica, probably born in Constantinople, Komnenos family (multiple emperors) were Greek Thracians ( from Orestiada or Didymotichon both in contemporary Greek Thrace) etc. Of course there were also plenty of Armenian, Thracian, Balkan Latin etc emperors. 


The Slavs most certainly weren’t settlers that got invited over to populate areas. They were part of a larger wave of population movements (triggered by steppe people etc) and their passage through Greece is well recorded. They avoided garrisoned areas (like Athens, isthmus of Corinth etc), they avoided the densely populated plains and coastal areas and they settled in mountains and highlands, and even created forts to protect themselves. Being pagans they did not become imperial subjects until they got converted to Christianity.

----------


## Jovialis

G25 version of "Comparing the _modeling of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians"

_Thank you to Lukas for posting the simulation tool.

It looks the same as the Dodecad K12b version, with some slight variation.



```
Yamnaya_Samara,0.122482,0.105703,0.050417,0.094832,-0.019530,0.067302,-0.002916,-0.012350,-0.037627,-0.061136,-0.004795,-0.009621,0.015083,0.002641,0.010517,0.012294,-0.005724,-0.000899,-0.002742,-0.009487,-0.005137,0.001379,0.005377,-0.001199,0.000736
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0.107965,0.175043,-0.043188,-0.081848,0.018443,-0.046239,0.015567,0.022724,0.002661,0.038483,0.003795,0.008205,-0.012183,-0.000822,-0.006065,-0.010807,0.004190,-0.002213,-0.001629,0.008995,0.002561,0.000974,-0.003401,-0.000084,-0.002337
Minoan_Lasithi,0.116961,0.183279,-0.029107,-0.086099,0.027212,-0.045190,0.012910,0.021275,0.010535,0.044143,0.003807,0.008700,-0.013195,-0.004722,-0.002464,-0.006743,0.001660,-0.001554,-0.000353,0.006721,0.003549,0.000216,-0.004245,-0.001076,-0.001736
Minoan_Odigitria,0.117562,0.179047,-0.021343,-0.080214,0.029083,-0.041611,0.011036,0.018722,0.017454,0.048385,0.003171,0.009392,-0.015094,-0.007857,0.000286,-0.003164,-0.000190,-0.000059,0.001772,0.004355,0.004496,0.000056,-0.005525,-0.001839,-0.001131
Minoan_Petras,0.100377,0.176276,-0.029971,-0.085329,0.025730,-0.044810,0.011952,0.021085,0.008989,0.041663,0.003582,0.007105,-0.010081,-0.003382,-0.003147,-0.006996,0.001746,-0.001923,-0.001132,0.007622,0.003310,0.000533,-0.003678,-0.000643,-0.001788
```

----------


## ponticman

Hello

Complete noob here, what tool is this? similar to vahaduo?

----------


## Jovialis

> Hello
> 
> Complete noob here, what tool is this? similar to vahaduo?


This is indeed vahaduo, it is under the "multi" tab.

----------


## ponticman

damn didnt notice thanks

----------


## Palermo Trapani

My results from coordinates from Jovialis posts #528 and 548 above. 

Target
Distance
Minoan_Odigitria
Minoan_Petras
Yamnaya_Samara

PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
2.79917725
•
36.5
40.8
22.7

Average
2.79917725
•
36.5
40.8
22.7





Target
Distance
Minoan_Lasithi
Minoan_Odigitria
Minoan_Petras
Yamnaya_Samara

PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_scaled_DodK12
0.00757177
•
19.4
36.8
22.7
21.1

Average
0.00757177
•
19.4
36.8
22.7
21.1

----------


## bigsnake49

> Now you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings of the paper. 
> 
> 
> ""The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied," said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute.
> This period covered the rule of Alexander the Great (332-323 B.C.), the Ptolemaic dynasty (323-30 B.C.) and part of Roman rule (30 B.C.-A.D. 641). Strict social structures and legal incentives to marry along ethnic lines within these communities may have played a part in the Egyptians' genetic stasis, the paper speculates."
> 
> "A lot of people had assumed foreign invaders ... brought a lot of genetic ancestry into the region," Krause said. "People expected that through time, Egypt would become more European, but we see the exact opposite."
> https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/healt...age/index.html
> 
> ...


How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?

----------


## Angela

> How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?



The conclusion of the authors is clearly stated in the paper and is contrary to what you claimed. The statements you quoted as supporting your false conclusion were provided by the authors as context i.e. how the question was analyzed in the past, not the results of the genetic analysis which was the subject of the paper itself. These are the kinds of games that media outlets play in order to get away with libel.

So, if your claim is that you didn't deliberately misrepresent the results, i.e. you knew they didn't actually support your conclusion, then either you didn't read the "whole" paper, where the genetics over time are analyzed, or you weren't intelligent enough to understand what it said. 

Which is it?

If you didn't read the whole paper carefully it's negligence, while if you didn't understand it, you're not intelligent enough to be posting about genetics papers. Do you prefer that I draw those conclusions?

----------


## matadworf

> G25 version of "Comparing the _modeling of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians"
> 
> _Thank you to Lukas for posting the simulation tool.
> 
> It looks the same as the Dodecad K12b version, with some slight variation.
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



My maternal grandmother came from Paliohori, Arcadia! I've never seen this sample before where did you find this?

----------


## Jovialis

PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.

Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:





```
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021,2.02,0.51,1.68,0.46,32.46,23.57,0,0.25,7.97,0,30.09,1
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021,7.05,1.16,0.26,0,31.18,28.21,0,0.13,4.25,0.92,24.07,2.77
Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021,0,0,5.75,0.07,41.42,0.91,0,0.03,13.26,0.69,35.94,1.94
Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021,0.13,0,2.62,0,36.59,0.3,0,0,13.35,0.53,45.02,1.45
Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021,4.64,0,2.77,0,32.51,1.12,0,0,11.34,0.32,45.28,2.02
Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35
Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019,1.2,0,2.31,0,22.09,16.57,0,0,20.72,2.25,34.86,0
NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019,0.47,0,4.06,0,36.68,5.45,0,0,12.64,0,40.71,0
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017,5.02,0,5.95,0,40.19,14.38,0,0,10.66,0,23.79,0
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
GRC_Anc_lc:I17960,5.36,0,0,0,42.92,4.68,0,4.95,17.09,0,25,0
GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lc:I13513_d,31.26,0,7.84,0,37.36,0,0,0,0,0,16.51,7.03
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17959,0,0,8.54,0,41.76,4.79,0.66,0,6.3,0,31.75,6.21
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962,0.06,0,3.38,0,34.64,9.52,0,0,13.96,0,38.41,0.03
GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833,10.29,0,1.72,1.05,19.47,7.73,0,0.21,17.41,0.01,41.68,0.42
GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872,0,0,0,0,47.61,16.94,0,0,20.45,0,15,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571,0,0,1.64,0,35.27,6.83,0.7,0.15,13.84,0,41.49,0.07
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582,4.53,0,0.92,0,37.27,7.66,0,0,14.58,0,33.89,1.15
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709,0.19,0,0.01,0,37.3,9.73,0,0.7,10.32,0,41.76,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc:I13536_d,20.92,0.52,0,0,58.77,0,0,5.31,6.03,0.33,8.13,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428,0,0,1.84,1.71,36.38,12.43,0,0,12.93,0,33.33,1.38
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13433,13.68,0,9,0,44.13,3.91,0,0,3.36,0,25.92,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531,1.13,0,0,0,41.42,8.5,0,0,24.65,0,24.31,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532,12.5,3.41,0,0,44.31,10.13,0,0,15.75,0.83,13.08,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577,2.53,0,2.04,0,33.85,13.18,0,0,9.85,0,38.55,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578,0,0,0.53,1.29,36.65,11.19,0,0,13.64,0,36.7,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579,0,0,6.05,0,39.89,8.35,0,0,9.11,0.68,35.54,0.38
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580,0,0,0,1.88,39.34,13.06,3.84,0.49,9.46,0,31.93,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA:I6420_d,9.95,0,0,0,25.98,2.98,8.46,0,10.77,0,41.85,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d,0.42,0,4.22,0,37.3,10.96,0,0,12.06,0,33.29,1.75
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13510,1.92,0,2.31,0,25.3,4.43,0,0.75,13.83,0,50.95,0.51
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514,0.95,0.27,1.01,0,36.38,9.69,0,0,14.02,0.44,36.97,0.28
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516,0,0,0.29,0,36.62,7.11,0,0,10.35,0,45.62,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d,5.93,0,1.29,0,29.47,8.9,0,1.56,11.07,0.47,40.66,0.66
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518,1.94,0,3.13,0,34.67,11.03,0,0.24,10.94,0,37.88,0.17
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13519_d,4.35,0,0.06,0,21.58,9.83,0,0,9.52,0,54.65,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364,1.47,0.43,0,0,43.97,3.16,2.4,1.03,9.64,0,37.9,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366,3.12,0,1.75,1.41,30.86,7.95,0,0,14.35,0,40.57,0
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368,5.03,0,3.65,0,27.74,15.8,0,0,7.46,0,39.85,0.48
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878,7.68,0,2.45,0.39,42.04,4.78,0,0,15.54,0,27.11,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879,10.6,0.42,0,0,33.53,0,12.83,0,18.24,0,24.39,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881,8.56,0,10.82,1.79,35.00,0,0,0,8.36,6.78,28.69,0
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884,13.72,0,5.57,0,31.10,5.86,0,0,12.13,0,31.61,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887,6.04,0,2.01,0,48,1.93,0,0.5,0,0,41.51,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160,0,3.56,0,0,48.09,6.29,0,0,0,0,40.21,1.85
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20161,8.17,0,0,0,48.11,0.15,0,0,18.81,5.19,19.56,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162,0.54,4.57,4.04,0,38.38,6.06,1.58,1.42,12.16,0,31.24,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163,0,0,1.01,0,44.03,15.69,0,0,9.47,0,25.85,3.95
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166,1.3,0,2.27,0,24.86,17.92,0,0,13.05,0,40.39,0.21
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167,25.91,2.37,0,0,32.61,10.08,0,0,2.47,0,26.56,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168,3.15,0,5.53,0,27.61,10.89,1.03,0,8.76,5.28,37.74,0
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217,3.47,0,3.7,1.5,36.68,8.46,0,0,10.54,0,34.73,0.93
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218,1.53,0.56,1.25,0,38.25,9.27,0,0.74,13.01,0.56,33.99,0.85
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219,0,0,2.62,0,34.85,9.15,0,0,11.07,0.18,40.95,1.18
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221,3.06,0.08,1.62,0.41,29.82,7.16,0,0,11.3,0.78,44.15,1.62
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223,0.26,0.14,2.97,0.87,41.92,13.23,0.2,0,10.42,0,28.22,1.77
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224,0.86,0,2.28,0.62,37.93,12.11,1.09,0,9.92,0,33.83,1.36
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225,0.92,0,2.71,0.52,43.93,8.64,0,0,7.8,0.99,33.38,1.1
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432,0,0.13,3.96,1.03,47.81,6.96,0,0,8.93,0.32,29.64,1.22
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866,1.68,0,1.94,0,32.63,9.06,0,0,13.94,0.50,39.80,0.44
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952,0.81,0,3.09,0.31,35.29,10.84,0,0,10.74,0,37.6,1.32
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948,2.23,0,3.8,0.53,38.48,7.24,0.06,0,12.5,0.59,33.38,1.19
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945,3.57,0.02,3.49,0,34.37,8.7,1.25,0,9.75,0.51,37.33,1
```

Yamnaya_Samara



```
Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015,29.21,3.13,0,0,3.94,57.21,2.44,0,0,0,3.33,0.75
Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015,30.56,1.4,0,0,7.38,54.65,1.41,0,0,0,4.49,0.12
Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015,30.97,3.96,0,0,4.88,57.16,0.12,0,0,0,1.92,0.99
Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015,28.47,1.92,0,0,3.71,62.57,0.96,0.21,0,0,1.45,0.7
Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015,26.82,1.54,0,0.39,0.6,60.83,1.8,0,0,0,7.77,0.25
Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015,24.1,0.47,0,0.94,8.87,55.96,2.12,0,0,0,7.16,0.37
Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015,33.85,2.03,0,0.21,1.48,59.11,2.63,0,0,0,0,0.69
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015,29.61,2.46,0,0,3.67,58.66,0.07,0,0,0,4.84,0.69
Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015,29.41,1.68,0,0,6.52,59.52,0.6,0.02,0,0,1.07,1.19
```

----------


## Francesco

Iron age greeks seem even more similar to modern southern italians and Cycladic inhabitants and appear a bit more north shifted on the PCA: maybe the interaction both with the doric and anatolian world brought a little bit more EHG and CHG admixture? Just some random thoughts looking at the above PCA.




> PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.
> 
> Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:


I wonder if the Helladic_Logkas sample could be seen as a proxy for proto-oscan-like ancestry

----------


## Stuvanè

Based on Jovialis set (post #556)

Distance to:
Dodecadk12bStuvanè

5.70363919
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021

8.03052925
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021

12.87863735
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017

14.96215894
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163

15.09736401
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

15.74680920
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580

15.90255954
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428

16.05556601
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224

17.00930922
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d

17.33531655
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577

17.86014278
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368

18.56199881
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518

18.68982343
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218

18.78719777
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952

18.82408032
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

18.92371792
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217

19.09835071
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166

19.58297730
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017

19.83113965
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945

19.83989163
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514

19.87338924
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017

19.88636216
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

20.07192567
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948

20.29479983
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168

20.74404011
NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019



Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 0.9396% / 0.93959741 | ADC: 0.25x RC

66.6
Helladic_Logkas_MBA



13.0
Armenoi_Crete



12.2
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA



8.2
Yamnaya_Samara






Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 0.9166% / 0.91663302

56.3
Helladic_Logkas_MBA



13.7
Armenoi_Crete



13.2
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA



10.1
Yamnaya_Samara



5.4
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA



1.3
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc




Distance to:
Dodecadk12bStuvanè

3.06750376
79.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015

3.48007308
76.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 23.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531

3.60798990
77.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 23.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015

3.84502320
79.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015

3.84723771
80.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 19.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015

3.93460142
85.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 14.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532

4.08822047
69.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 31.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428

4.17124974
75.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.20% Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017

4.20626053
70.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 29.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d

4.21908645
79.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015

4.24733767
64.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 36.00% Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017

4.28886555
68.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 32.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

4.30920142
81.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.80% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018

4.34181248
73.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

4.36813518
79.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015

4.38385392
73.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218

4.44805889
65.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 34.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021

4.45208663
74.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514

4.48517187
74.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948

4.49404327
78.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 21.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015

4.49481895
86.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 13.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872

4.49613028
75.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.60% GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962

4.54011291
82.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.00% Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017

4.54865499
79.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015

4.56255915
74.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

----------


## torzio

no where near me

Distance to:	Torziok12b
13.78342097	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
15.00850116	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
16.01977216	Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
17.85823620	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
19.44357477	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
20.84526325	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
21.86613820	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
22.26714171	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
23.09377838	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
23.50153186	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872
23.82265308	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
24.11690486	GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
24.28304553	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532
24.61253542	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
24.73625679	Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
24.74051131	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
25.04725933	GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
25.21423011	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
25.28458028	GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
25.28884932	Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
25.72402768	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
25.74470431	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
25.83917955	Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
25.94860883	Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
26.07406758	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166


Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 2.9285% / 2.92845448
33.5	Yamnaya_Samara
22.8	GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
22.0	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
21.0	Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
0.7	Helladic_Logkas_MBA

----------


## Jovialis

Here are my results with Yamnaya_Samara included.

----------


## Jovialis

PCA made with PAST software, using the Dodecad K12b coordinates.

----------


## Jovialis

^^I exist in the range of Southern Italy, Central Italy, the Peloponnese, and almost in the Cyclades.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

My model using coordinates from post #556 (thanks Jovialis)

----------


## Angela

Jovialis, I don't see Himera hoplite 480 BC Battle 110946.

Not my "best" collection of ancient sources in terms of fit, but...

Distance to:
Angela

8.79353740
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017

8.89120914
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163

9.44240435
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

10.83918355
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021

11.13374151
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580

12.13746267
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224

13.71234116
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225

13.95851711
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428

13.97269480
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d

14.17348934
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017

14.29946852
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021

15.18984200
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218

15.25060982
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217

15.72241712
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432

15.76320399
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579

15.83432979
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577

16.01564235
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948

16.17007112
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017

16.32866192
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952

16.43740855
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518

16.63677853
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

16.96022995
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

17.02822069
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945

17.07667708
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162

17.52376387
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514



Closest population to Armenoi Crete: I can see why Lazaridis thought the sample might have been partly or fully "foreign". 
Distance to:
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017

5.53201591
French_Corsica

9.91419185
Italian_Tuscany

10.30954412
Italian_Romagna

10.34666613
Italian_Liguria

10.58752096
Italian_Emilia

10.72514820
Italian_Marche

11.28459126
Italian_Umbria

11.86670131
Italian_Lazio

12.55721307
Italian_Lombardy

13.45603210
Italian_Piedmont

14.60639586
Spanish_Canarias

14.74098029
Italian_Abruzzo

14.82734973
Italian_Veneto

15.44883814
Italian_Molise

15.99574631
Italian_Campania

16.13880456
Swiss_Italian

16.21161004
Portuguese

16.34587104
Italian_Sicily

16.63360153
Italian_Basilicata

16.96006486
Spanish_Castilla-Leon

17.07478843
Italian_Friuli_VG

17.11421339
Spanish_Baleares

17.41238065
Albanian

17.51260118
Italian_Trentino

17.63067214
Spanish_Valencia


Closest population to Himera 120163
Distance to:
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163

8.05290631
French_Corsica

11.97538726
Italian_Tuscany

12.07434470
Italian_Liguria

12.28813656
Italian_Emilia

12.85750753
Italian_Lombardy

13.08214050
Italian_Romagna

14.16025070
Italian_Umbria

14.20417770
Italian_Marche

14.94211832
Italian_Piedmont

15.53554312
Italian_Lazio

15.82009482
Italian_Veneto

16.01502927
Swiss_Italian

16.04906851
Sardinian

17.70109319
Spanish_Canarias

17.70549915
Italian_Trentino

17.75717883
Spanish_Baleares

17.99368500
Spanish_Castilla-Leon

18.23154958
Portuguese

18.26533055
Spanish_Valencia

18.35561222
Italian_Friuli_VG

18.66447428
Italian_Abruzzo

18.76057302
Italian_Molise

19.08213562
Spanish_Andalusia

19.14226476
Albanian

19.24776091
Italian_Aosta_Valley



Closest population to soldier 17223
Distance to:
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

7.64100124
French_Corsica

12.37324937
Italian_Tuscany

12.42813679
Italian_Marche

12.43657509
Italian_Romagna

12.95873836
Italian_Umbria

13.19374094
Italian_Liguria

13.25838225
Italian_Emilia

13.94157452
Italian_Lazio

14.84614765
Italian_Lombardy

15.66525135
Italian_Molise

15.78862249
Italian_Abruzzo

16.13977075
Italian_Campania

16.67125970
Italian_Piedmont

16.85838664
Sardinian

17.26569431
Italian_Sicily

17.39979885
Italian_Veneto

18.01935071
Italian_Basilicata

18.02502427
Albanian

18.39592890
Italian_Calabria

18.47916293
Swiss_Italian

18.50314568
Greek_Athens

18.54495349
Italian_Apulia

18.66551901
Ashkenazi_Jew

18.74542611
Greek_Central

19.42878792
Greek_Thrace



So, my closest matches are not the Mycenaean like Himera samples.

Should Corsica be analyzed the way Sardinia is, as harboring very ancient like Mediterranean genomes?


Target: Angela
Distance: 3.3004% / 3.30036850 | ADC: 0.25x RC

38.6
Helladic_Logkas_MBA



22.9
Armenoi_Crete



17.9
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc



17.2
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med



3.4
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc





Distance to:
Angela

3.60040894
52.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 47.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432

4.00112251
78.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 21.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015

4.24346426
81.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015

4.43098251
81.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015

4.57583367
81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015

4.67503190
81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015

4.68577070
83.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015

4.70055766
78.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 21.20% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc:I13536_d

4.74081127
81.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 18.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015

4.76773588
84.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015

4.79019152
48.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 51.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225

4.79166318
80.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 20.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015

4.79640390
80.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015

4.94025401
63.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 37.00% Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016

5.03265976
81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015

5.13318271
82.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 17.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015

5.13985205
37.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 62.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

5.19930224
82.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 17.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015

5.20117793
83.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015

5.22064215
64.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 36.00% Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018

5.24352364
83.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015

5.28231134
83.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015

5.37179713
63.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 37.00% Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016

5.37542340
84.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 15.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015

5.52654783
34.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 65.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163


Closest population to Himera 117432:
Distance to:
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432

11.46223364
Sardinian

14.79113586
French_Corsica

20.15046153
Italian_Tuscany

20.19339753
Italian_Marche

20.47562453
Italian_Romagna

20.80845742
Italian_Emilia

20.87084569
Italian_Liguria

20.99619727
Italian_Umbria

21.81653272
Italian_Lazio

22.00034318
Italian_Lombardy

22.14177048
Italian_Campania

22.14616220
Italian_Molise

22.49807992
Italian_Abruzzo

23.32857047
Italian_Sicily

23.65573081
Italian_Calabria

23.96066360
Morocco_Jew

24.05342179
Italian_Piedmont

24.16760228
Italian_Basilicata

24.64280219
Italian_Jew

24.67446048
Ashkenazi_Jew

24.90516011
Sephardic_Jew

24.92396838
Italian_Veneto

25.39982087
Spanish_Canarias

25.47048684
Italian_Apulia

25.49358277
Swiss_Italian



Closest population to Log 4:
Distance to:
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021

5.64006206
Macedonian_Vardar

6.12159293
Macedonian_Polog

6.41073319
Italian_Friuli_VG

6.41352477
Macedonian_East

6.83537124
Macedonian_South

6.91795490
Greek_Macedonia

7.15973463
Italian_Veneto

7.30935018
Albanian_Kosovo

7.69858429
Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje

7.92521293
Romanian_Muntenia

8.11762280
Moldovan_Gagauz

8.39100113
Romanian_Oltenia

8.54378722
Bulgarian_Central

8.56044975
Bulgarian_East

8.59815096
Bulgarian_West

8.64762973
Italian_Piedmont

9.23212327
Romanian_Banat

9.33067522
Greek_Thessaly

9.34067985
Montenegrin

9.47814328
Pomak_Bulgaria

9.49851041
Italian_Trentino

9.58237444
Italian_Emilia

9.68784290
Romanian_Dobrogea

9.70237600
Turk_Makedonya

9.92411205
Romanian_Transylvania

----------


## Jovialis

> Jovialis, I don't see Himera hoplite 480 BC Battle 110946.


Indeed, I had omitted him because from the labeling I thought he was a mercenary



```
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946,4.41,1.02,1.4,0,37.29,25.51,0,0.03,5.81,0,22.6,1.93
```

Here's a version with that sample included:

----------


## Angela

Thanks, Jovialis. I asked because when you were looking at all the Himera samples, he came in very often.

Distance to:
Angela

8.73953088
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

8.79353740
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017

8.89120914
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163

9.44240435
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223

10.83918355
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021

11.13374151
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580

12.13746267
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224

13.71234116
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225

13.95851711
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428

13.97269480
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d

14.17348934
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017

14.29946852
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021

15.18984200
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218

15.25060982
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217

15.72241712
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432

15.76320399
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579

15.83432979
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577

16.01564235
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948

16.17007112
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017

16.32866192
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952

16.43740855
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518

16.63677853
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

16.96022995
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

17.02822069
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945

17.07667708
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162



They didn't do the Strontium test on him, did they? He might very well have been a Northern Italian mercenary, as your PCA shows. I know Ligurian mercenaries, for one, were all over the Med. Or, he might have been a settler from there. It amazes me the authors didn't do more complete similarity runs to modern populations.

Distance to:
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

2.93308711
Italian_Veneto

3.07253967
Italian_Piedmont

3.26599143
Italian_Lombardy

4.01203190
Italian_Liguria

4.52730604
Italian_Emilia

5.03992187
Swiss_Italian

5.26428533
Italian_Friuli_VG

5.57457622
Italian_Trentino

5.90759680
Italian_Tuscany

8.14992025
Italian_Romagna

8.46255871
Italian_Aosta_Valley

9.60735656
French_Corsica

9.83466827
Italian_Umbria

10.21314349
Macedonian_Vardar

10.31406806
Spanish_Baleares

10.58307139
Albanian_Kosovo

10.72228054
Macedonian_South

10.87933362
Macedonian_East

11.30645391
Macedonian_Polog

11.36434336
Italian_Lazio

11.42829821
Portuguese

11.50418463
Italian_Marche

11.63881867
Spanish_Canarias

11.68290632
Greek_Macedonia

11.83536227
Austrian_Tyrol



Excellent work.


Target: Angela
Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329

60.4
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe



25.0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc



7.0
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA



4.9
Armenoi_Crete



1.5
Yamnaya_Samara



1.2
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA




Much closer. With him I don't need the Yamnaya samples.

The two way is also closer:
Distance to:
Angela

2.44499086
25.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.01322856
38.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 62.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.29669157
28.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364 + 71.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.56498582
34.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 65.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.60040894
52.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 47.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432

3.67632975
27.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.68400475
25.60% Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.72608679
24.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.80837347
24.20% Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.88743179
24.80% Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.92444659
25.40% Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

3.95277039
25.00% Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.00112251
78.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 21.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015

4.05898212
24.60% Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016 + 75.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.14471368
33.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579 + 66.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.24346426
81.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015

4.30970473
36.00% Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017 + 64.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.31660957
24.20% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.35796349
22.80% Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018 + 77.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.36932010
22.40% Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 77.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.38236790
19.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017 + 80.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.43098251
81.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015

4.47652697
25.00% Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946

4.57583367
81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015

4.58412671
47.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 52.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946




Distance to:
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887

24.35054620
Sardinian

25.06138464
French_Corsica

26.62032870
Italian_Campania

27.02743051
Italian_Molise

27.50897853
Italian_Calabria

27.56504489
Italian_Abruzzo

27.59585701
Italian_Marche

27.79165882
Sephardic_Jew

27.79760781
Greek_Icaria

28.10085586
Italian_Sicily

28.36504363
Italian_Basilicata

28.64264303
Italian_Umbria

28.75828055
Italian_Romagna

28.92046853
Morocco_Jew

29.07919187
Italian_Lazio

29.11633219
Italian_Tuscany

29.15473203
Italian_Jew

29.52921096
Ashkenazi_Jew

29.66739625
Greek_Rhodes

29.94266187
Italian_Emilia

30.09013460
Italian_Apulia

30.14666151
Greek_Izmir

30.15841674
Greek_Kos

30.36559731
Greek_Fournoi

30.77873942
Greek_Lemnos



So, Balkan/North Italian like plus about a quarter more Med like?



MTarget: Angela
Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329

60.4
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe



25.0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc



7.0
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA



4.9
Armenoi_Crete



1.5
Yamnaya_Samara



1.2
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA

----------


## Jovialis

> Thanks, Jovialis. I asked because when you were looking at all the Himera samples, he came in very often.
> 
> Distance to:
> Angela
> 
> 8.73953088
> Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
> 
> 8.79353740
> ...


I think it is likely, given where he plots on the PCA.


I too am curious to see where the Campanian samples plot in relation to the ones we currently have. As well as the link the Kingjohn provided with the 102 new samples.


As for the quality of scholarship when it comes to papers, I have little faith anymore. Other than the raw data and occasional undeniable archeological identification, many authors seem to be very obtuse with their conclusions.

----------


## Jovialis

*If* I win the $1.5 billion Powerball Jackpot on Saturday, one of my personal goals is to set up my own lab, hire non-bias researchers, and sequence all of the unexplored aDNA that tickles my interest. :)

I think that would be possible with a $745 million dollar payout considering the Reich lab did all they have done with a measly $400,000 grant.

----------


## real expert

> *If* I win the $1.5 billion Powerball Jackpot on Saturday, *one of my personal goals is to set up my own lab, hire non-bias researchers, and sequence all of the unexplored aDNA that tickles my interest. :)*
> 
> I think that would be possible with a $745 million dollar payout considering the Reich lab did all they have done with a measly $400,000 grant.


 :Beer: 

You would do us, all archaeogenetics enthusiasts, a great service, and I'd be very grateful to you.* Good luck!!!
*

----------


## PaleoRevenge

I made a Greek average from six Himera individuals that scored Mycenean and southern MKD IA, half of the individuals carried minor Sicilian(below 10%) mixture.

This is the classical Greek profile I was able to filter from six Himera individuals which showed almost entirely Mycenaean and MKD IA ancestry.



```
Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE_1:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667


```


With Mycenaean.



Without Mycenaean





```
ALB_Çinamak_Anc:Average,0.12475,0.1537512,0.0302452,-0.0142766,0.0300362,-0.0074186,0.003008,0.0005078,-0.001636,0.0248934,0.0011366,0.0071936,-0.0192368,-0.0072664,-0.0093376,-0.0049058,0.0066756,0.0026096,0.0039722,-0.0091042,-0.007986,0.0025474,-0.0043382,0.0057118,-0.0064664
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:Average,0.1227012,0.153345,0.0232306,-0.0133722,0.0244968,-0.0063586,-0.0016922,-0.0033692,0.0006136,0.0272624,0.0058134,0.0063242,-0.0168878,-0.0066334,-0.0106676,-0.0031822,0.0011472,0.0044846,0.007944,-0.0095546,-0.0135512,0.0084826,-0.0017008,0.009688,-0.0026104
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:Average,0.123498,0.1563915,0.0197985,-0.024225,0.029852,-0.013526,-0.0052875,-0.0064615,0.008897,0.0303425,0.0007305,0.0059945,-0.0118185,0.0056425,-0.0113325,-0.01664,-0.0086055,0.001457,0.005845,-0.016633,-0.0117295,0.0039565,0.0019105,0.005362,-0.001916
South_Thracian:Average,0.120342,0.162484636363636,0.00750790909090909,-0.0525021818181818,0.0298237272727273,-0.0213985454545455,-0.000427272727272727,-0.00148963636363636,0.0115091818181818,0.0437533636363636,0.002864,0.00821554545454545,-0.0182042727272727,-0.000963272727272727,-0.0228134545454545,-0.0118847272727273,0.00982618181818182,0.00269490909090909,0.00823909090909091,-0.00983418181818182,-0.00948327272727273,0.005598,-0.00368618181818182,0.00316554545454545,-0.00649918181818182

Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE_1:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667
POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002,0.097888,0.137096,-0.06939,-0.072675,-0.023697,-0.013666,0.005875,-0.003692,-0.024338,-0.00164,0.011205,-0.013338,0.012636,0.00578,-0.020765,0.030893,0.024903,0.004181,-0.000251,-0.007754,0.004617,0.015086,-0.003944,-0.015544,-0.005508
ARM_Noratus_Anc:Average,0.0944735,0.137604,-0.05638,-0.0637925,-0.0253895,-0.019941,0.0038775,-0.005192,-0.0223955,-0.0041,0.00609,0.00517,-0.006764,-0.0052985,-0.0010855,0.00305,0.009453,-0.001964,0.005594,-0.0068785,0.003993,-0.00136,0.0019105,-0.0025905,0.003353
IRN_Hasanlu_C_BA_&_IA:Average,0.0949608571428571,0.126070714285714,-0.0649725714285714,-0.0443432857142857,-0.0409744285714286,-0.00844628571428571,0.00688228571428571,-0.00458228571428571,-0.0376322857142857,-0.0118451428571429,0.00605485714285714,6.42857142857142E-05,0.000977,-0.00359785714285714,0.000853,0.00746271428571429,-0.000707857142857143,0.00356528571428571,0.00301685714285714,-0.00394842857142857,0.00180042857142857,-0.00439857142857143,-0.00508828571428571,-0.00719542857142857,0.00138571428571429
Levant_PPNB:Average,0.0774,0.165192666666667,-0.0314266666666667,-0.139752333333333,0.035699,-0.063215,-0.0110453333333333,-0.012999,0.0681746666666667,0.0413676666666667,0.0197033333333333,-0.014287,0.0312683333333333,-0.00197266666666667,-0.0285013333333333,0.009016,0.0160803333333333,-0.00135133333333333,-0.00439966666666667,0.019926,-0.00391,0.008491,-0.00209533333333333,-0.00397633333333333,-0.006267
ISR_Natufian_EpiP,0.034147,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.140506,0.042162,-0.085062,-0.016921,-0.015692,0.12476,0.019317,0.028743,-0.025327,0.085926,-0.004129,0.004886,-0.014054,-0.011213,-0.007855,-0.02074,0.023136,0.01123,0.001607,0.00912,0.003735,-0.003233
Berber_Tunisia_Chen,-0.0279499,0.1390711,-0.0080871,-0.0764792,0.0277316,-0.0352023,-0.0313867,0.0052818,0.0684246,0.0297957,0.0040057,-0.0043877,0.0196314,-0.0161248,0.0140923,-0.0169052,0.0001521,-0.0232896,-0.0467247,0.0078579,-0.0168314,-0.0404275,0.0281347,-0.0044517,0.0063666
```

South of Olympus mountain, MKD_Southeast_Valandovo likely represents Vlach and partial Albanian ancestry though some of it can easily have been transmitted during imperial time and the barbarian migrations. MKD Southeast average is made of two individuals that are Vezerzug Balkan like in the majority of their profile, therefore a northern Thracian like component. A good candidate for ancestral Vlach and partially Albanian.
South of Olympus mountain, South Thracian is mostly tied to Albanian like ancestry, maybe partially Vlach. For Greek islands, it's hard to say, some of the islands next to Thrace have a strong south Thracian ancestry, and likely represent refugees when the Slavs ravaged Thrace.

----------


## Angela

Way too many overlapping ancient populations. First I just want to see the distances of all those modern Greek populations to Mycenaeans and Minoans. Then, to the Himera samples. 

This doesn't give us the right information.

Just post the coordinates for the modern Greek samples and I'll do it myself.

----------


## PaleoRevenge

It's true, there are a lot of values, but Greeks are not made of only one Balkan source. There are Vlach and Albanians who migrated into Greece during the medieval period, that have a different ancient Balkan IA background. These two groups likely represent about 16-20% of modern Greek genome, similar to the overall Slavic mixture. 

It's a model for Balkan Greeks. For south Italian Greeks, or Trebezon, it would make sense to remove the other Balkan IA averages. It all depends on whom you're trying to model. The model result do seem reasonable on estimating on how much ancient Greek profile survived in modern Greece. Maybe people will disagree.

----------


## Angela

> PCA made with PAST software, using the Dodecad K12b coordinates.





> It's true, there are a lot of values, but Greeks are not made of only one Balkan source. There are Vlach and Albanians who migrated into Greece during the medieval period, that have a different ancient Balkan IA background. These two groups likely represent about 16-20% of modern Greek genome, similar to the overall Slavic mixture. 
> 
> It's a model for Balkan Greeks. For south Italian Greeks, or Trebezon, it would make sense to remove the other Balkan IA averages. It all depends on whom you're trying to model. The model result do seem reasonable on estimating on how much ancient Greek profile survived in modern Greece. Maybe people will disagree.


I don't understand what "you" don't understand. If I want to know how close modern Greeks, no matter their ancestors over time, are to Mycenaeans, then I compare each modern Greek population to Mycenaeans, PERIOD. All of the other populations are irrelevant. 

None of this will tell you how close Classical Era Greeks were to Mycenaeans unless we assume Classical Era Greeks were like the Empuries sample, which isn't a bad assumption. You do understand that Classical Era Greeks are the Greeks of the late first millennium B.C. and the early Imperial Era, yes?

If you won't give me the coordinates I'll find them myself. What you're doing won't answer the question.

----------


## Jovialis

Regarding phenotype, this could be a random everyday person in Southern Italy, or Greece.

----------


## Angela

> Regarding phenotype, this could be a random everyday person in Southern Italy, or Greece.


One of our American posters once stated that as to the question of where the ancient Romans went, they didn't go anywhere. All you had to do was go to a museum in Italy, look at the statues, and look at the Italians around you. :)

----------


## Angela

Davidski has some nerve posting the Sicilian coordinates away from the rest of the Italians.

Anyway, no idea why he didn't post the Calabrian Greek speakers if he was going to post the Apulian ones, so I just added all the modern Deep South Italian coordinates. Then decided to post Balkan samples as well as some Turkish ones to make sure I had the complete picture.

AJF is my husband. No point in doing him separately. In some cases he doesn't match as well, perhaps because he has both Campanian and Calabrian ancestry.

When you're talking ancient samples, a distance of .04 is respectable, imo. Heck, I'm at a distance of 4 to other North Italians and Central Italians. 

Distance to:
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

0.04689063
AJF

0.04715049
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04766329
Italian_Apulia

0.04773822
Italian_Calabria

0.04781696
Italian_Campania

0.04981762
Italian_Basilicata

0.04994000
Sicilian_East

0.05015796
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.05016770
Greek_Apulia

0.05067558
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.05203613
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.05206948
Greek_Dodecanese

0.05330776
Greek_Kos

0.05358886
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.05402369
Italian_Molise

0.05421812
Greek_Crete

0.05583935
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.05586673
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05672532
Greek_Izmir

0.05864152
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.05938853
Greek_Laconia

0.05957032
Sicilian_West

0.05995380
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.06108172
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06177003
Greek_Argolis

0.06198743
Greek_Corinthia

0.06234180
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.06288515
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06356868
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.06376561
Greek_Arcadia



Distance to:
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA

0.04376803
Sicilian_East

0.04508047
Greek_Apulia

0.04572918
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.04580595
Italian_Apulia

0.04610023
Italian_Calabria

0.04706078
Italian_Basilicata

0.04715428
Italian_Molise

0.04738173
Italian_Campania

0.04865959
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04886789
AJF

0.04931669
Greek_Izmir

0.05011201
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05084622
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.05113279
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.05137956
Greek_Crete

0.05183370
Sicilian_West

0.05187215
Greek_Laconia

0.05190657
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.05299505
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.05306515
Greek_Elis

0.05315977
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.05375946
Greek_Corinthia

0.05396806
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.05430973
Greek_Argolis

0.05451048
Greek_Kos

0.05457760
Greek_Messenia

0.05462103
Greek_Arcadia

0.05471137
Greek_Peloponnese

0.05571970
Greek_Thessaly

0.05630598
Greek_Achaea



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA

0.04221922
Italian_Calabria

0.04223259
Italian_Campania

0.04250888
Italian_Apulia

0.04325377
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04349767
AJF

0.04401398
Italian_Basilicata

0.04419664
Sicilian_East

0.04453392
Greek_Apulia

0.04612516
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.04793408
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.04843008
Italian_Molise

0.04849150
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.04873771
Greek_Dodecanese

0.04950303
Greek_Kos

0.04974552
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.05060176
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05065653
Greek_Crete

0.05086053
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.05217033
Greek_Izmir

0.05350346
Sicilian_West

0.05419376
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.05501731
Greek_Laconia

0.05532666
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.05666966
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.05725136
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.05729454
Greek_Corinthia

0.05740571
Greek_Argolis

0.05747552
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.05796211
Greek_Peloponnese

0.05951980
Greek_Arcadia



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA

0.05788121
Italian_Apulia

0.05804452
Greek_Apulia

0.05831636
Italian_Campania

0.05908175
Italian_Basilicata

0.05939518
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.05984886
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05987889
Italian_Calabria

0.05998007
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.06087317
Greek_Izmir

0.06091187
Italian_Molise

0.06182767
Greek_Corinthia

0.06210482
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.06245076
Sicilian_East

0.06286959
Greek_Argolis

0.06295452
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06357289
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.06363142
Greek_Laconia

0.06446492
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.06489945
Greek_Achaea

0.06516555
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06546427
Greek_Elis

0.06548152
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.06551331
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.06590425
Greek_Arcadia

0.06660814
Greek_Messenia

0.06723523
Greek_Kos

0.06793268
Greek_Crete

0.06812768
Greek_Thessaly

0.06835129
Sicilian_West

0.07012765
Greek_Dodecanese



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA

0.05210852
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.05370163
Italian_Campania

0.05407514
Italian_Apulia

0.05429504
Greek_Apulia

0.05510829
Italian_Calabria

0.05562445
Italian_Basilicata

0.05660416
AJF

0.05665286
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.05671397
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.05720477
Sicilian_East

0.05735401
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.05792790
Greek_Kos

0.05811369
Italian_Molise

0.05821709
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.05853950
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05887287
Greek_Dodecanese

0.05967206
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.05978069
Greek_Izmir

0.06012171
Greek_Crete

0.06277443
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.06293200
Greek_Laconia

0.06455584
Greek_Corinthia

0.06464741
Greek_Argolis

0.06482661
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06531884
Sicilian_West

0.06541016
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06582341
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.06602598
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.06688762
Greek_Arcadia

0.06708943
Greek_Achaea



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean

0.04613524
Italian_Calabria

0.04817685
Italian_Campania

0.04852104
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04950703
Greek_Apulia

0.04995370
Italian_Apulia

0.04999673
Italian_Basilicata

0.05054309
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.05085882
Sicilian_East

0.05100425
Greek_Kos

0.05118825
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.05223553
Greek_Dodecanese

0.05238513
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.05262290
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.05276639
AJF

0.05290585
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.05499403
Italian_Molise

0.05509976
Greek_Crete

0.05543374
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05592299
Greek_Izmir

0.05864589
Sicilian_West

0.06010278
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.06114329
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.06154745
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.06178645
Greek_Laconia

0.06250757
Greek_Corinthia

0.06351918
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.06360560
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06362087
Greek_Argolis

0.06417624
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06471197
Greek_Elis



Distance to:
GRC_Marathon_Rom

0.03155534
Greek_Kos

0.03318612
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.03530182
Greek_Dodecanese

0.03605125
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.03797466
Greek_Central_Anatolia

0.04151280
Greek_Crete

0.04399147
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.04653811
Greek_Cappadocia

0.04654727
Italian_Calabria

0.04724190
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04821852
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.04902160
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.05057446
Italian_Campania

0.05100804
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.05157535
Italian_Basilicata

0.05185594
Greek_Apulia

0.05188142
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.05315034
Greek_Izmir

0.05347846
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05583415
Italian_Apulia

0.05674047
Sicilian_East

0.05726674
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.05883097
AJF

0.06053355
Italian_Molise

0.06176304
Turkish_Trabzon

0.06334862
Greek_Laconia

0.06404823
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.06479274
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06519108
Sicilian_West

0.06530634
Greek_Peloponnese



Distance to:
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA

0.07925327
Sardinian

0.08674779
AJF

0.08801419
Italian_Calabria

0.08899441
Italian_Campania

0.08916051
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.08968383
Italian_Apulia

0.09034336
Sicilian_East

0.09099140
Greek_Apulia

0.09102636
Italian_Basilicata

0.09186629
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.09256822
Greek_Dodecanese

0.09375424
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.09396882
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.09431878
Greek_Kos

0.09491472
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.09527482
Italian_Molise

0.09568276
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.09626148
Sicilian_West

0.09678054
Greek_Crete

0.09733181
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.09900182
Greek_Izmir

0.09969443
Greek_Laconia

0.10007655
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.10146914
Greek_Corinthia

0.10152149
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.10171868
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.10194405
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.10201295
Greek_Argolis

0.10253266
Greek_Peloponnese

0.10360940
Greek_Achaea



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.03417883
Greek_Thessaly

0.03682935
Greek_Macedonia

0.03809233
Albanian

0.03859053
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.04079064
Romanian

0.04169561
Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace

0.04241700
Greek_Messenia

0.04253053
Greek_West_Taygetos

0.04434856
Greek_Argolis

0.04464512
Greek_Arcadia

0.04510095
Greek_Achaea

0.04549666
Greek_Elis

0.04598625
Greek_Corinthia

0.04732186
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04771796
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.04779804
Serbian

0.04851138
Greek_Laconia

0.05037076
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.05310307
Italian_Molise

0.05600328
Greek_Izmir

0.05730408
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.05900938
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.05975311
Italian_Apulia

0.06041934
Greek_Apulia

0.06232352
Italian_Basilicata

0.06251249
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.06283343
Sicilian_West

0.06537395
Sicilian_East

0.06695425
Italian_Campania

0.06718373
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos



Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.02431119
Greek_Thessaly

0.02861037
Albanian

0.02912989
Greek_Messenia

0.02997666
Greek_Arcadia

0.03013658
Greek_Argolis

0.03049210
Greek_Achaea

0.03135567
Greek_Macedonia

0.03143920
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.03167704
Greek_Corinthia

0.03178996
Greek_West_Taygetos

0.03186725
Greek_Elis

0.03193732
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03201528
Greek_Peloponnese

0.03207900
Greek_Laconia

0.03417274
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.03444402
Italian_Molise

0.03697060
Italian_Apulia

0.03922182
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.03990854
Greek_Izmir

0.04010745
Greek_Apulia

0.04095838
Italian_Basilicata

0.04195290
Sicilian_West

0.04325503
Sicilian_East

0.04393710
Italian_Campania

0.04491046
Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace

0.04495766
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.04602852
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.04622659
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.04910749
Italian_Calabria

0.04954411
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos



Distance to:
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA

0.06193076
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.06301511
Greek_Dodecanese

0.06381044
Greek_Kos

0.06495474
Italian_Calabria

0.06501295
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.06538674
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.06665753
Italian_Campania

0.06753112
AJF

0.06755638
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.06828835
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.06837493
Greek_Apulia

0.06868963
Italian_Apulia

0.06905756
Italian_Basilicata

0.07049827
Sicilian_East

0.07054026
Greek_Crete

0.07072350
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.07447896
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.07569450
Italian_Molise

0.07578048
Greek_Izmir

0.07617068
Greek_Central_Anatolia

0.07808867
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.07827615
Greek_Crete_Heraklion

0.07897847
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.08040213
Sicilian_West

0.08053980
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.08077109
Greek_Laconia

0.08157686
Greek_Cappadocia

0.08238268
Greek_Corinthia

0.08279123
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.08314791
Greek_Argolis



Distance to:
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc

0.05787657
Italian_Campania

0.05848890
Greek_Apulia

0.05882399
Italian_Basilicata

0.05912097
Greek_Deep_Mani

0.05933861
Italian_Calabria

0.05992688
Italian_Apulia

0.06057585
Greek_Cyclades_Tinos

0.06105774
Greek_Cyclades_Amorgos

0.06159812
Greek_Cyclades_Milos

0.06187028
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.06229563
Greek_Izmir

0.06233866
Greek_Crete_Lasithi

0.06263385
Italian_Molise

0.06292498
Greek_Cyclades_Kea

0.06300167
Greek_Kos

0.06349317
Sicilian_East

0.06641152
Greek_Crete

0.06659959
Greek_Corinthia

0.06694642
Greek_Dodecanese

0.06820953
Greek_Laconia

0.06834318
Greek_Dodecanese_Rhodes

0.06861502
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06883271
Greek_Crete_Chania

0.06883898
Greek_Argolis

0.06928648
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.06986354
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.06996732
Greek_Achaea

0.06999020
Sicilian_West

0.07050459
Greek_Elis

0.07065507
AJF




These are using all the scaled ones.

----------


## Angela

I don't trust using averages very much, so I ran my husband against all the ancient Greek samples to see if there would be a difference. Only one came in a little closer.

Distance to:
AJF

0.03404072
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517

0.04572638
GRC_Mycenaean:I9033

0.04650141
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366

0.04886789
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368

0.04942272
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506

0.05101253
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514

0.05181903
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.05660130
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571

0.05711290
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518

0.05722487
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.05883097
GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833

0.06402122
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577

0.06465211
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709

0.06513980
GRC_Mycenaean:I9006

0.06765601
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03

0.06898082
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364

0.06941901
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

0.07065507
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962

0.07252656
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.07390660
GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920

0.07479863
GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01

0.07721725
GRC_Mycenaean:I9010

0.07912090
GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08

0.08315191
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071

0.08361648
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

0.08674779
GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15

0.08790764
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074

0.09003262
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073

0.09265051
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070

0.09274473
GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916

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## Angela

For a better understanding of Logkas 2 and 4 I added Northern and Central Italian coordinates.

Distance to:
GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02

0.02368158
Italian_Tuscany

0.02431119
Greek_Thessaly

0.02540433
Italian_Lombardy

0.02632281
Italian_Marche

0.02691930
Italian_Emilia

0.02858172
Italian_Umbria

0.02861037
Albanian

0.02884804
Italian_Piedmont

0.02912989
Greek_Messenia

0.02922166
Italian_Liguria

0.02997666
Greek_Arcadia

0.03013658
Greek_Argolis

0.03049210
Greek_Achaea

0.03135567
Greek_Macedonia

0.03143920
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.03167704
Greek_Corinthia

0.03178996
Greek_West_Taygetos

0.03186725
Greek_Elis

0.03193732
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03201528
Greek_Peloponnese

0.03207900
Greek_Laconia

0.03208233
Italian_Bergamo

0.03248308
Angela

0.03417274
Greek_North_Tsakonia

0.03444402
Italian_Molise

0.03696799
Italian_Veneto

0.03697060
Italian_Apulia

0.03846480
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.03922182
Greek_South_Tsakonia

0.03990854
Greek_Izmir



Distance to:
RC_Logkas_MBA:Log04

0.03417883
Greek_Thessaly

0.03682935
Greek_Macedonia

0.03721551
Italian_Emilia

0.03808333
Italian_Northeast

0.03809233
Albanian

0.03859053
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03866564
Italian_Piedmont

0.04077091
Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada

0.04079064
Romanian

0.04091185
Italian_Veneto

0.04104217
Italian_Tuscany

0.04148815
Italian_Lombardy

0.04169561
Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace

0.04180854
Italian_Bergamo

0.04200219
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.04241700
Greek_Messenia

0.04253053
Greek_West_Taygetos

0.04268138
Italian_Liguria

0.04434856
Greek_Argolis

0.04464512
Greek_Arcadia

0.04510095
Greek_Achaea

0.04549666
Greek_Elis

0.04598625
Greek_Corinthia

0.04732186
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04748835
Italian_Marche

0.04771796
Greek_East_Taygetos

0.04777273
Angela

0.04779804
Serbian

0.04851138
Greek_Laconia

0.04897483
Italian_Umbria

----------


## Jovialis

Frankly, I think his G25 calculator is flawed in terms of the components it uses which makes the coordinates within and of themselves flawed. Maybe more for some particular ancestries more than others.

For example, It seems to make Minoans more "North" than they should be, and south Italians more "South" in relation to them. Which is absolutely wrong, if you look at virtually every single academic PCA created that projects them.

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## Jovialis

example:

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## Angela

> Frankly, I think his G25 calculator is flawed in terms of the components it uses which makes the coordinates within and of themselves flawed. Maybe more for some particular ancestries more than others.
> 
> For example, It seems to make Minoans more "North" than they should be, and south Italians more "South" in relation to them. Which is absolutely wrong, if you look at virtually every single academic PCA created that projects them.


I don't doubt it's flawed, as I've said many times in many threads.

I just got tired of reading that G25 shows this and that, when it actually doesn't. 

The conclusions people are drawing from their "preferred" calculator's results are themselves flawed. If it's not pointed out, the misinformation out there just keeps on increasing.

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## Jovialis

> One of our American posters once stated that as to the question of where the ancient Romans went, they didn't go anywhere. All you had to do was go to a museum in Italy, look at the statues, and look at the Italians around you. :)


Indeed, I can't imagine describing this face as anything else than Italian:

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## Jovialis

> I don't doubt it's flawed, as I've said many times in many threads.
> 
> I just got tired of reading that G25 shows this and that, when it actually doesn't. 
> 
> The conclusions people are drawing from their "preferred" calculator's results are themselves flawed. If it's not pointed out, the misinformation out there just keeps on increasing.


It is annoying, and I agree, pointing out the flaws is a must. I pointed out two logical fallacies in another thread that people often use to "justify" how it is better, the bandwagon fallacy, and the appeal to novelty. Both of which prove nothing. For example, MTA is possibly more popular and even newer than G25, and I think it is even worse.

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## Angela

[QUOTE=Jovialis;661241]Indeed, I can't imagine describing this face as anything else than Italian:

[ /QUOTE]

I agree.

A female version perhaps?


The problem is that most foreigners have no idea what Italians look like, because they've never traveled the length and breadth of Italy for extended periods of time, and have only seen some 19th century plates chosen with pre-conceptions in mind, or modern pictures posted by people with their own agendas, and as often as not posting people who aren't actually Italian, or are Italians after the summer holidays, as if the ability to tan makes you European or non-European.

It's just a constant stream of misinformation and misunderstanding.

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## Jovialis

People see what they want, but most people are just mediocre, and some are just plain dumb. Then there's more intelligent people that just lie to appeal to their sensibilities. Thus, an exceedingly small sub-set of humanity's opinion is worth anything really.

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## real expert

[QUOTE=Angela;661244]


> Indeed, I can't imagine describing this face as anything else than Italian:
> 
> [ /QUOTE]
> 
> I agree.
> 
> A female version perhaps?
> 
> 
> ...




She is definitely a good-looking female version of Caesar. Is she an Italian actress? Anyway, Caesar on the busts looks indeed Italian. I’ve been many times to Italy (mostly in North and Central Italy) and Caesar would blend in well there. Due to the extremely realistic sculptures of Roman Emperors, I think we get a good idea how they and other native Romans might have looked like in real.

Ed. apologies, but I removed my picture.

----------


## Jovialis

Definitely looks like the female version of Caesar btw!

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## Angela

[QUOTE=real expert;661249]


> She is definitely a good-looking female version of Caesar. Is she an Italian actress? Anyway, Caesar on the busts looks indeed Italian. I’ve been many times to Italy (mostly in North and Central Italy) and Caesar would blend in well there. Due to the extremely realistic sculptures of Roman Emperors, I think we get a good idea how they and other native Romans might have looked like in real.


Nice snow job, real expert. :)

Of course, it's me. 

Or, it was me. :) It's my children's favorite picture of me. My daughter told me she'll blow it up and use it at my funeral, because that's the expression she remembers from her childhood.* I asked her if I should take it that she's anxious for her inheritance! :Kidding:  

What can I say? She's like me: likes to plan ahead.

*Notice she said childhood, not adolescence.  :Laughing:  There were times then that I had to go for a walk or bite through my lip to control myself. Thank-God they change back after a few years.

----------


## real expert

[QUOTE=Angela;661252]


> Nice snow job, real expert. :)
> 
> Of course, it's me. 
> 
> Or, it was me. :) It's my children's favorite picture of me. My daughter told me she'll blow it up and use it at my funeral, because that's the expression she remembers from her childhood.* I asked her if I should take it that she's anxious for her inheritance! 
> 
> What can I say? She's like me: likes to plan ahead.
> 
> *Notice she said childhood, not adolescence.  There were times then that I had to go for a walk or bite through my lip to control myself. Thank-God they change back after a few years.


What does a snow job mean? Seriously I didn‘t know that the woman in this picture was actually you. There are so many pics of actresses especially Italian ones here and on TA that a certain actress that I've once saw with a similar haircut and face popped into my mind. However, I sincerely think that the woman- you in the picture looks good and resembles Caesar in this specific recreation. No joke! Anyway, since you're a married woman I don't want to sound flirting or so. Hence, I'll leave it there.

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=real expert;661260]


> What does a snow job mean? Seriously I didn‘t know that the woman in this picture was actually you. There are so many pics of actresses especially Italian ones here and on TA that a certain actress that I've once saw with a similar haircut and face popped into my mind. However, I sincerely think that the woman- you in the picture looks good and resembles Caesar in this specific recreation. No joke! Anyway, since you're a married woman I don't want to sound flirting or so. Hence, I'll leave it there.


That's fine, R.E.

It's an American expression which means flattering someone to get on their good side. Sometimes I forget how idiomatically I speak, in both English and Italian. I was just joking; it wasn't meant seriously.

That picture was my profile picture for so long I thought everyone must have seen it by now, that's all, so I thought you'd seen it too.

That's also only one recreation, of course, although I think it's a good recreation of that one particular bust. Also, even if it wasn't modeled on Caesar, it was modeled on an Italian of that time period, so the point remains that the phenotypes haven't changed too much.

I'd be highly insulted if someone thought I looked like this bust supposedly of Caesar. :) Another one looks as if he has a tumor growing out of his head.



The Julio-Claudians did have weird heads, but these are too much. It has to be a fake:

----------


## Hawk

Yeah, that reconstruction is ridicilous. I wouldn't particularly associate that kind of look with one of the most memorable commanders of ancient world. His face doesn't command respect and fear. If i was his soldier i would refuse to fall for his command to do 1 pushup letalone fight for him to death.

----------


## real expert

[QUOTE=Angela;661268]


> That's fine, R.E.
> 
> It's an American expression which means flattering someone to get on their good side. Sometimes I forget how idiomatically I speak, in both English and Italian. I was just joking; it wasn't meant seriously.
> 
> That picture was my profile picture for so long I thought everyone must have seen it by now, that's all, so I thought you'd seen it too.
> 
> That's also only one recreation, of course, although I think it's a good recreation of that one particular bust. Also, even if it wasn't modeled on Caesar, it was modeled on an Italian of that time period, so the point remains that the phenotypes haven't changed too much........



The only avatar I knew of you was the Etruscan Lady before you changed it. Besides, I had the gut feeling that the term "snow work" has a negative meaning. Here's the thing, I'm long around in this forum to have figured out that you are the very opposite of a gullible or naive lady. Thus I don't waste my time buttering you up to get on your good side. What I rather try and want to do is present facts in the most unbiased way possible, express my honest take on certain topics, and be polite by doing so. In too many discussions and forums, people don't show much decorum. Anyway, we had good conservations and also not few disagreements. However, to me, there is nothing creepier than making fake compliments or trying to flatter people in an insincere way. So, before I make a fake compliment to a woman or a man for that matter I keep my mouth shut. It's a matter of self-respect and the respect of others to refrain from behaving like a sycophant or worse a slimeball.

----------


## Jovialis

Attention members, if you are going to post coordinates, please go to advanced posting, select the text, and toggle the "code" button. Otherwise there will be spaces and emojis in the body of the post.

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## Angela

[QUOTE=real expert;661270]


> The only avatar I knew of you was the Etruscan Lady before you changed it. Besides, I had the gut feeling that the term "snow work" has a negative meaning. Here's the thing, I'm long around in this forum to have figured out that you are the very opposite of a gullible or naive lady. Thus I don't waste my time buttering you up to get on your good side. What I rather try and want to do is present facts in the most unbiased way possible, express my honest take on certain topics, and be polite by doing so. In too many discussions and forums, people don't show much decorum. Anyway, we had good conservations and also not few disagreements. However, to me, there is nothing creepier than making fake compliments or trying to flatter people in an insincere way. So, before I make a fake compliment to a woman or a man for that matter I keep my mouth shut. It's a matter of self-respect and the respect of others to refrain from behaving like a sycophant or worse a slimeball.


R.E., I'm trying very hard not to respond in a negative way. I'll say it again. It was a JOKE, a bit of what I thought was witty repartee. In my experience men often pay compliments out of politeness, whether it's here, in Italy, France, etc. It doesn't mean they want to have an affair with you for heaven's sake. The response a lot of women are more comfortable with than just saying thank you is to make some sort of witty come back. Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "Oh, I bet you say that to all the girls!". It's old fashioned Americana, what a woman might say to a man who paid her a compliment, a way of saying oh, you don't have to say that just because it's the polite thing to say. 

Forget it. Maybe in Germany you don't do that sort of thing, so you have no idea what I'm talking about. 

I must say, though, you must have some trouble with British and American media content if you can so misread my original post and then get so incredibly pedantic on top of it. You'd think you were going to challenge me to a duel at 6 AM. :) That's a JOKE TOO, HINT, HINT.

Also, don't go looking for insults. If I want to insult you, you'll know it. Italians are very direct that way, and New Yorkers too. No subtle innuendo; more in your face. :)

----------


## Angela

> Yeah, that reconstruction is ridicilous. I wouldn't particularly associate that kind of look with one of the most memorable commanders of ancient world. His face doesn't command respect and fear. If i was his soldier i would refuse to fall for his command to do 1 pushup letalone fight for him to death.


That reconstruction is based on the bust from the Netherlands. There's a whole paper on it and how it's the only one from when he was alive and so he must have looked like that. 

I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. 

His head looks deformed in the bust, and I think it's a terrible reconstruction of the bust. 

Not that being handsome was a prerequisite for being a great general and statesman. I mean, look at Cato the Elder. Has there ever been an uglier or more frightening looking man? My husband thought it was funny and even admirable in a way that he ended every speech, even about maintaining the drains, by saying Carthago delenda est. Carthage must be destroyed. He just seemed obsessive to me, and a completely rigid enforcer of "morality".

----------


## Vallicanus

> That's fin
> 
> I'd be highly insulted if someone thought I looked like this bust supposedly of Caesar. :) Another one looks as if he has a tumor growing out of his head.
> 
> 
> 
> The Julio-Claudians did have weird heads, but these are too much. It has to be a fake:


This is the so-called Tusculum Bust of Julius Caesar.

I read a very convincing article which stated that his features were exaggerated by the sculptor because the head was intended as part of a funeral statue which was to be viewed from below.

I will try and find and link the article.

----------


## Hawk

This one is more realistic.

----------


## Vallicanus

> This one is more realistic.


Better than the ET spinoff above.

Julius Caesar was considered good-looking in his time and was a great womanizer.

----------


## Angela

Yes, the artists who did the recreation for the Dutch paper must have been on drugs. 

This is better, but who knows if the bust is actually a good representation of him. It still has that huge bulge on one side, which doesn't inspire confidence. Still it's very realistic looking. You can find Italian men of this age who look like that all over Italy.

----------


## Dianatomia

[QUOTE=Angela;661244]


> Indeed, I can't imagine describing this face as anything else than Italian:
> 
> [ /QUOTE]
> 
> I agree.
> 
> A female version perhaps?
> 
> 
> ...


The man looks distinctly Italian.

----------


## Jovialis

Perhaps by 44 BC, Julius Caesar, and the rest of the patricians fell into the range of modern Italians. (C7 IA Latin/Etruscan +C6 Mediterranean sources).

----------


## Angela

I agree. As I've said on other threads, there are Italians who look like their near neighbors, i.e. like the Swiss, or French, or Spanish, and Italians who look Greek, but there are also Italians who look distinctly and only Italian, and this recreation is one of those examples.

----------

