# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Napoleon III was not related by blood to Napoleon I, and may be Talleyrand's grandson

## Maciamo

Lucotte et al. published in October 2013 the extended Y-STR of Napoleon I based on descendant testing, and the descendants were E-M34, just like the emperor's beard hair tested a year before. The persons tested were the patrilineal descendants of Jérome Bonaparte, one of Napoleon's brothers, and of Alexandre Colonna-Walewski, Napoleon's illegitimate son with Marie Walewska. These three tests all yielded the same Y-STR haplotype (109 markers) confirming with 100% certainty that the first Emperor of the French belonged to the M34 branch of haplogroup E1b1b.

However, Professor Lucotte also tested the Y-DNA of Napoleon III's hair and that Jean-Marc Banquet d'Orx, a presumed descendant through one of Napoleon III's illegitimate sons, the Count of Orx. The results revealed that Jean-Marc Banquet d'Orx was indeed Napoleon III's patrilineal descendant, but that the two men belonged to haplogroup I2, and therefore did not share the same paternal lineage as Napoleon I.

Napoleon III was presumably the son of Louis Bonaparte and Hortense de Beauharnais (Joséphine's daughter, and therefore Napoleon I's stepdaughter). It has been claimed that Louis Bonaparte was a homosexual, and his wife was known for her rather promiscuous lifestyle.

Hortense is known to have had at least one other illegitimate son (Charles de Morny, Duke of Morny), who bears an uncanny resemblance with Napoleon III, and could therefore both have been sired by the same man. This man, Hortense's lover and Charles de Morny's father, was Charles Joseph, comte de Flahaut. What's even more interesting is that he was himself the son of Prince Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord, possibly the greatest statesman of the French Revolution and the Bourbon Restoration, and the man most responsible for Napoleon I's downfall. Napoleon I famously told him that he was "a turd in a silk stocking". It would be an ironic twist of history if Napoleon III was really Tayllerand's grandson and not Napoleon I's ! 

Besides, if this is true and Napoleon III is I-M223, it would also be the haplogroup of the House of Talleyrand-Périgord. This house is a cadet branch of the Count of La Marche, whose oldest patrilineal ancestor is Boso I (958–988), himself a probable descendant of the House of Limoges, from whom are also descended the Viscounts of Turenne, the Viscounts of Rochechouart, and the Dukes of Mortemart, among others. The House of Limoges itself was founded as a cadet branch of the Counts of Toulouse-Rouergue, dating back to the 9th century. I-M223 would be a very possible haplogroup for an old Frankish noble family.

Another possibility is that Napoleon III was the son of Carel Hendrik Verhuell, a Dutch admiral and statesman who is rumoured to have had a liaison with Hortense when she was Queen of Holland. This affair hasn't been proven though.

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## adamo

So wait, let me get this straight; somewhere down the line the E3b changed into I2, meaning what? The wife of an E3b napoleon had an affair with an I2 man? Or did I inverse it?

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## Nobody1

Napoleon III lost a major war against the German states in 1871;
Bavarians were marching in Paris and the German Empire proclaimed at Versailles;
_quel désastre...__sacré bleu_

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## adamo

Comme d'habitude, les Francais ont perdu contre les peuples allemands. XD

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## Nobody1

> Comme d'habitude, les Francais ont perdu contre les peuples allemands. XD


Oh Bien sur Bien sur

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## sparkey

> So wait, let me get this straight; somewhere down the line the E3b changed into I2, meaning what? The wife of an E3b napoleon had an affair with an I2 man? Or did I inverse it?


You've got it straight, it's looking like the wife of an E1b Bonaparte had an affair with an I2 man. The only two possibilities are the mother of Napoleon III (Hortense) or the mother of Napoleon III's legal father (Louis' mother Letizia). Between the two candidates, Hortense is considered _by far_ the more likely candidate due to her having a proven affair and illegitimate child, not to mention that Napoleon III was rarely thought to look like Louis, and there have been rumors of Napoleon III's parentage since his reign.

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## sparkey

Of particular interest to historians trying to resolve Napoleon III's parentage is who was with Hortense in Cauterets (where she was staying) 9 months before Napoleon III was born. Baguley 2000 has an interesting discussion of candidates, including:


Carel Hendrik Verheull (as mentioned by Maciamo) who may have been in Cauterets, although his "less charming" brother Christian-Antoine may have actually been the Verheull who was thereÉlie Decazes, who was definitely in Cauterets at the timeCharles Adam de Bylandt-Palstercamp, Hortense's equerry, who of course was thereThe Count de Villeneuve, who was there according to the same account asserting that Verheull was thereCharles Joseph, comte de Flahaut (as mentioned by Maciamo) although there's not much direct evidence that he was there, and he asserted himself that he was in Prussia at the timeRené Bertrand de Boucheporn, a chamberlain who traveled with Hortense's party brieflyAnne-Claude Thiénon, a painter who spent one night with Hortense 

Baguley also mentions Napoleon I, but of course any connection to him looks to be disproven.

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## Maciamo

> You've got it straight, it's looking like the wife of an E1b Bonaparte had an affair with an I2 man. The only two possibilities are the mother of Napoleon III (Hortense) or the mother of Napoleon III's legal father (Louis' mother Letizia). Between the two candidates, Hortense is considered _by far_ the more likely candidate due to her having a proven affair and illegitimate child, not to mention that Napoleon III was never thought to look like Louis, and there have been rumors of Napoleon III's parentage since his reign.


Even without studying facial traits in details, Napoleon III's blue eyes and blondish beard don't look particularly Corsican. 

19th-century people wouldn't have known that, but it would have been extremely improbable genetically for Napoleon III to have been Louis Bonaparte's son, because all seven siblings of Napoleon Bonaparte and both his parents had brown eyes, which means that all would have had two copies for brown eyes. In order to have blue eyes both parents need to contribute one blue eye allele. 

This also makes me wonder whether Napoleon II was Napoleon I's biological son. This case is even more suspicious since the boy had both blue eyes and blond hair and looked nothing like his father. I have always suspected a Habsburg conspiracy. Since the Habsburgs and other European royals couldn't stand Napoleon I and certainly didn't want to recognise them as one of theirs, least of all let him marry a "real" princess, Marie Louise's father might have asked her to make sure she got pregnant by another man (perhaps designated in advance and ready to accomplish his task) to make sure that the Bonaparte bloodline didn't "pollute" the noble Habsburg lineage. Isn't it strange that the Marie Louise's second husband, the Count von Neipperg, who fathered her three other children, happened to be appointed at the Austrian embassy in Paris exactly from the time Marie Louise arrived in Paris to marry Napoleon ? 

The Austrian embassy would have been a place where Marie Louise could have gone easily without Napoleon, and where the perfidious manoeuvre could have taken place, with the benediction of the Austrian emperor. Then, as good Catholics, the same man who fathered Napoleon II would have been forced to marry Marie Louise once Napoleon I was out of the picture. Note that Adam Albert von Neipperg had curly blond hair, just like Napoleon II.

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## Sile

> You've got it straight, it's looking like the wife of an E1b Bonaparte had an affair with an I2 man. The only two possibilities are the mother of Napoleon III (Hortense) or the mother of Napoleon III's legal father (Louis' mother Letizia). Between the two candidates, Hortense is considered _by far_ the more likely candidate due to her having a proven affair and illegitimate child, not to mention that Napoleon III was rarely thought to look like Louis, and there have been rumors of Napoleon III's parentage since his reign.


The story was IIRC, that the Bourbon French house wanted nothing to do with the Corsican/Italian house of Napoleon I , his father was originally named Luciano and you will find that all his family changed their christian names from italian to french sounding. Corsica was more Italian/genoese than french at the time.

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## Angela

> Even without studying facial traits in details, Napoleon III's blue eyes and blondish beard don't look particularly Corsican. 
> 
> 19th-century people wouldn't have known that, but it would have been extremely improbable genetically for Napoleon III to have been Louis Bonaparte's son, because all seven siblings of Napoleon Bonaparte and both his parents had brown eyes, which means that all would have had two copies for brown eyes. In order to have blue eyes both parents need to contribute one blue eye allele. 
> 
> This also makes me wonder whether Napoleon II was Napoleon I's biological son. This case is even more suspicious since the boy had both blue eyes and blond hair and looked nothing like his father. I have always suspected a Habsburg conspiracy. Since the Habsburgs and other European royals couldn't stand Napoleon I and certainly didn't want to recognise them as one of theirs, least of all let him marry a "real" princess, Marie Louise's father might have asked her to make sure she got pregnant by another man (perhaps designated in advance and ready to accomplish his task) to make sure that the Bonaparte bloodline didn't "pollute" the noble Habsburg lineage. Isn't it strange that the Marie Louise's second husband, the Count von Neipperg, who fathered her three other children, happened to be appointed at the Austrian embassy in Paris exactly from the time Marie Louise arrived in Paris to marry Napoleon ? 
> 
> The Austrian embassy would have been a place where Marie Louise could have gone easily without Napoleon, and where the perfidious manoeuvre could have taken place, with the benediction of the Austrian emperor. Then, as good Catholics, the same man who fathered Napoleon II would have been forced to marry Marie Louise once Napoleon I was out of the picture. Note that Adam Albert von Neipperg had curly blond hair, just like Napoleon II.


Considering Marie Louise's morals, this is certainly a possibility. However, Napoleon himself had what have variously been described as blue, blue-grey or grey eyes. Virtually all of his portraits indicate this as well. So any child of his with a light eyed woman should have produced a light eyed child. 
http://www.napoleon-series.org/resea...scription.html

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## adamo

Very interesting....one would think napoleon had some sort of "advantage" owing to the fact that he was E3b, and thus had more recent continental African ancestry, but then again he was standing short at 5"6.

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## LeBrok

5'6" wasn't short, average height back then.

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## adamo

It's not a tiny height , it's fine. I'm about 5"10; pretty normal dude.

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## LeBrok

> It's not a tiny height , it's fine. I'm about 5"10; pretty normal dude.


If Napoleon was born at end of 20th century his height would have been 4 inches taller, similar to yours.



> According to a study by Economist John Komlos and Francesco Cinnirella, in the first half of *18th century, the average height of English male was 165 cm (5 ft 5 in),* the average height of Irish male was 168 cm (5 ft 6 in). *The estimated mean height of English, German, and Scottish soldiers are 163.6 cm – 165.9 cm (5 ft 4.4 in – 5 ft 5.3 in)* for the period as a whole, while that of Irish was 167.9 cm (5 ft 6.1 in). The average height of male slaves and convicts in North America was 171 cm (5 ft 7 in).[35]
> American-born colonial soldiers of the late 1770s were on average more than three inches taller than their English counterparts who served in Royal Marines at the same time.[36]
> Average height of Americans and Europeans decreased during period of rapid industrialization, possibly due to rapid population growth and increased economic inequality.[37] In early 19th century England, the difference between average height of English upper class youth (students of Sandhurst military academy) and English lower class youth (marine society boys) reached 22 cm (6.7 in), the highest that has been observed.[38]
> Data derived from burials show that before 1850, the mean stature of male and female in Leiden, Netherlands was respectively 166.7 cm (5 ft 5.6 in) and 156.7 cm (5 ft 1.7 in). The average height of 19-year-old Dutch orphans in 1865 was 160 cm (5 ft 3 in).[39]
> According to a study by J.W. Drukker and Vincent Tassenaar, the average height of Dutch decreased from 1830 to 1857, even while Dutch real GNP per capita was growing at an average rate of more than 0.5 percent per year. The worst decline were in urban areas that in 1847, the urban height penalty was 2.5cms (1 in). Urban mortality was also much higher than rural regions. In 1829, the average urban and rural Dutchman was 164 cm (5 ft 4.6 in). By 1856, the average rural Dutchman was 162 cm (5 ft 3.8 in) and urban Dutchman was 158.5 cm (5 ft 2.4 in)


We eat so much better these days.

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## nordicwarrior

> Even without studying facial traits in details, Napoleon III's blue eyes and blondish beard don't look particularly Corsican. 
> 
> 19th-century people wouldn't have known that, but it would have been extremely improbable genetically for Napoleon III to have been Louis Bonaparte's son, because all seven siblings of Napoleon Bonaparte and both his parents had brown eyes, which means that all would have had two copies for brown eyes. In order to have blue eyes both parents need to contribute one blue eye allele. 
> 
> This also makes me wonder whether Napoleon II was Napoleon I's biological son. This case is even more suspicious since the boy had both blue eyes and blond hair and looked nothing like his father. I have always suspected a Habsburg conspiracy. Since the Habsburgs and other European royals couldn't stand Napoleon I and certainly didn't want to recognise them as one of theirs, least of all let him marry a "real" princess, Marie Louise's father might have asked her to make sure she got pregnant by another man (perhaps designated in advance and ready to accomplish his task) to make sure that the Bonaparte bloodline didn't "pollute" the noble Habsburg lineage. Isn't it strange that the Marie Louise's second husband, the Count von Neipperg, who fathered her three other children, happened to be appointed at the Austrian embassy in Paris exactly from the time Marie Louise arrived in Paris to marry Napoleon ? 
> 
> The Austrian embassy would have been a place where Marie Louise could have gone easily without Napoleon, and where the perfidious manoeuvre could have taken place, with the benediction of the Austrian emperor. Then, as good Catholics, the same man who fathered Napoleon II would have been forced to marry Marie Louise once Napoleon I was out of the picture. Note that Adam Albert von Neipperg had curly blond hair, just like Napoleon II.


W-O-W. Oh how the rich are different than you and I.

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## kamani

These suppositions are possible. I imagine princesses back then as something between Paris Hilton and Pamela Anderson. On the other hand, Napoleon was not exactly a one-woman man either.

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## adamo

Very good deduction lebrok.

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## sparkey

Looking for portraits of Baguley's candidates for Napoleon III's parents, here's what I came up with:



So, who does Napoleon III look most like?

Note that I couldn't find a portrait for Charles Bylandt, but I did find one for Willem Bylandt, who I think was his brother (unless I'm confusing two different Charles Bylandts). I also found a reference to a portrait of Claude Thiénon, but I couldn't find it digitized anywhere, so instead I put in a portrait of Thiénon's mother. I couldn't find a portrait of Boucheporn or his relatives anywhere.

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## Angela

> Looking for portraits of Baguley's candidates for Napoleon III's parents, here's what I came up with:
> 
> 
> 
> So, who does Napoleon III look most like?
> 
> Note that I couldn't find a portrait for Charles Bylandt, but I did find one for Willem Bylandt, who I think was his brother (unless I'm confusing two different Charles Bylandts). I also found a reference to a portrait of Claude Thiénon, but I couldn't find it digitized anywhere, so instead I put in a portrait of Thiénon's mother. I couldn't find a portrait of Boucheporn or his relatives anywhere.


It looks like candidate number 2, the Count Decazes to me, middle, top row...the eyebrows, eyes and nose mainly. 

The Count de Blahaut, in that picture at least, first in the second row, seems to have pretty shallow set eyes. Also, I suppose historians have checked and there's some support for the fact that he was in Prussia at the time of the conception. On the other hand, I found this picture that is supposed to be him as well, and there's more resemblance here.
http://paristhefame.weebly.com/1/pos...lahaut-22.html

If the rumors about Louis Bonaparte are true, I think Hortense can be given a bit of a pass.

Convenient, isn't it, that the Code Napoleon provides that a child born during a marriage is automatically recognized as the child of the husband. 

Also interesting what a "loose" period this was, even by the low standards of the aristocracy. I can't remember her name right now, but the children of an English Duchess, other than the first two boys, were supposedly all fathered by different men...and there were a lot of them.

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## sparkey

> It looks like candidate number 2, the Count Decazes to me, middle, top row...the eyebrows, eyes and nose mainly. 
> 
> The Count de Blahaut, in that picture at least, first in the second row, seems to have pretty shallow set eyes. Also, I suppose historians have checked and there's some support for the fact that he was in Prussia at the time of the conception. On the other hand, I found this picture that is supposed to be him as well, and there's more resemblance here.
> http://paristhefame.weebly.com/1/pos...lahaut-22.html
> 
> If the rumors about Louis Bonaparte are true, I think Hortense can be given a bit of a pass.
> 
> Convenient, isn't it, that the Code Napoleon provides that a child born during a marriage is automatically recognized as the child of the husband. 
> 
> Also interesting what a "loose" period this was, even by the low standards of the aristocracy. I can't remember her name right now, but the children of an English Duchess, other than the first two boys, were supposedly all fathered by different men...and there were a lot of them.


I agree with all of this. Interestingly, a photo of Decazes exists, which I'm not sure helps his case one way or another (he's bald in it).

I'm also surprised by how little Verhuell looks like Napoleon III, considering that he seems like the most likely candidate if all we go by is historical record and genetics pointing to a subclade that is notably common in the Netherlands (I2-M223). Another portrait of Verhuell is here. IMHO it doesn't help his case much.

I can see Verhuell or any of the others turning out to be the father, but my top three from what I've seen would be Decazes (although he came from an area low in I2-M223), Flahaut (although he was probably in Prussia), and an interesting wildcard, Bylandt. I see some definite similarities between the Bylandt relative and Napoleon III, and it's worth noting that Bylandt is a Dutch lineage. If anyone can find a portrait of the real Charles Bylandt, that would help a lot. In case it helps anyone find a portrait, it's worth noting that the Dutch form of his name was probably "Carel Adam van Bylandt."

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## adamo

Any more fathers to suggest? XD pretty disturbing! Thank god I'm handsome as all hell or I'd be worried as f*** lollll

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## adamo

For someone such as me with good morals and values, let me tell you; life can be a bloody M.I.S.E.R.Y. !

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## sparkey

I did another quick search for Charles Adam Bylandt, and found another brother of his, Jean Charles Bylandt:



I think I see similarities again.

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## kamani

> Any more fathers to suggest? XD pretty disturbing! Thank god I'm handsome as all hell or I'd be worried as f*** lollll


They're just trying to make Napoleon look like a cornuto. lol.

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## Angela

> I did another quick search for Charles Adam Bylandt, and found another brother of his, Jean Charles Bylandt:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I see similarities again.


The nose seems similar, but the eyes and eyebrows are still totally off, so I don't know. (Queen Hortense didn't have those eyes and eyebrows either.)

This is the only Van Bylandt I could find:
http://explore.rkd.nl/nl/explore/por...record?filters[RKD_algemene_trefwoorden]=pi%C3%ABdestal&query=&start=25

If there are still male line descendants of these families, it would be a simple enough matter to get them to take dna tests, I suppose. They might even like the connection to royalty, even nouveau royalty. 

It seems to be true that it's a wise man who knows his own father...

That said, the world of the 17th, 18th and the very early 19th century aristocrats was very different from the world ushered in by Queen Victoria. I think the men in different countries may have been more or less tolerant, as well. I'm reminded of Alfonso II, Duke of Este, about whom Browning wrote his famous poem "My Last Duchess." In my own area, one of the Malatesta's threw his young wife into a dungeon on suspicion of infidelity. The tower is supposedly haunted by her ghost.  :Petrified: 

The British aristocrat to whom I was referring was Lady Melbourne:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabe...tess_Melbourne
"Lady Melbourne had six children that survived childhood; infant twins died in 1788.[3] Of the remaining six, only the eldest, Peniston, was certain to have been fathered by Lord Melbourne."

The Duchess of Devonshire was also notorious, (there's a wonderful biography of her called Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire...she comes across as an extremely vulnerable person, more sinned against than sinning...) as was her sister, and Lady Melbourne's daughter in law, Lady Caroline Lamb, wife of the future Prime Minister, who literally lost her mind over Lord Byron.

I think a good deal of this is a not unexpected outcome of marrying young girls to the highest bidder, usually a much older man, rather than on any compatibility whatsoever. And the men, of course, were never expected to be faithful. What's unusual in this class in these particular countries and periods is that the husbands, once in possession of an heir, seem to have turned a blind eye. Of course, if that heir died or was childless, the cuckoo in the nest could indeed wind up inheriting. Probably, up until the late 18th century, it was only the Queens who were watched like hawks.

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## adamo

Queen-whore-tense; the name is so befitting, in every sense of the word loll. I think Decazes would be the most likely paternal candidate.

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## sparkey

OK, I just tracked down a Boucheporn portrait to complete our portrait analysis of Napoleon III paternity candidates. Here is René Bertrand de Boucheporn's brother, Anne François Louis Bertrand de Boucheporn:



Interestingly, René Bertrand de Boucheporn named his daughter _Hortense_. Hortense married into the de Sampigny family, and one of her descendants, her namesake Hortense de Sampigny, became a famous violinist (she's on the left, of course):



Intriguingly, the Bertrand de Boucheporn family is thought to have originated in or near Metz, which is a relatively high I2-M223 area. That said, I'm not sure I see a lot of family similarity to Napoleon III with them. Does anyone?

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## John123

I find it ironic that these are French names and bouche means mouth in French......Monsieur boucheporn lol

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## Angela

> OK, I just tracked down a Boucheporn portrait to complete our portrait analysis of Napoleon III paternity candidates. Here is René Bertrand de Boucheporn's brother, Anne François Louis Bertrand de Boucheporn:
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, René Bertrand de Boucheporn named his daughter _Hortense_. Hortense married into the de Sampigny family, and one of her descendants, her namesake Hortense de Sampigny, became a famous violinist (she's on the left, of course):
> 
> 
> 
> Intriguingly, the Bertrand de Boucheporn family is thought to have originated in or near Metz, which is a relatively high I2-M223 area. That said, I'm not sure I see a lot of family similarity to Napoleon III with them. Does anyone?


I don't see any resemblance. Perhaps the historians should check their dates again. That one day encounter between Queen Hortense and her husband seems very suspicious to me. She wouldn't be the first woman in the world to discover she's pregnant by her lover who then finds such a visit might be a way to claim it is her husband's.

Also, this is a portrait of the child that was recognized as the issue of the Queen and the Count de Blahaut. He certainly looks as if he could be the full sibling of Napoleon III. 
http://ookaboo.com/o/pictures/pictur...ph_Demornyde_M

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## sparkey

> I don't see any resemblance.


Agreed, after spending some time trying to find a Boucheporn relative portrait, I think he's ended up being a very underwhelming candidate.

I think I'd go:

Top tier: Bylandt, Decazes, Flahaut
Middle tier: Thienon, Verhuell, Villeneuve
Bottom tier: Boucheporn

Boucheporn is the only one that would really surprise me. Thienon still needs a better portrait to look at.

I've also seen an eighth candidate discussed elsewhere, the Marquis de Castellane, who apparently passed through Cauterets at the right time, although Baguley doesn't even consider him, presumably because there's evidence that Hortense did not meet him while he was around. I'd place him in the bottom tier as well.




> Also, this is a portrait of the child that was recognized as the issue of the Queen and the Count de Blahaut. He certainly looks as if he could be the full sibling of Napoleon III. 
> http://ookaboo.com/o/pictures/pictur...ph_Demornyde_M


He also looks like he could be a half sibling, though. I'm far from certain.

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## sparkey

Some news: This story has (finally) gone to press in Le Figaro. Unfortunately, the story is premium content, but there are some third party reports like this one at Atlas. The most interesting news? Apparently the scientists are now going to perform tests on Louis Bonaparte to confirm whether or not the illegitimacy was with Hortense.

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## Grubbe

> Considering Marie Louise's morals, this is certainly a possibility. However, Napoleon himself had what have variously been described as blue, blue-grey or grey eyes. Virtually all of his portraits indicate this as well. So any child of his with a light eyed woman should have produced a light eyed child. 
> http://www.napoleon-series.org/resea...scription.html


Here is a picture of Napoleon I showing his light eyes:

http://tiffanyslittleblog.blogspot.n...-napoleon.html

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## Angela

> Here is a picture of Napoleon I showing his light eyes:
> 
> http://tiffanyslittleblog.blogspot.n...-napoleon.html



Altogether a quite common "look" in both Liguria and Toscana, his two ancestral (maternal and paternal) areas, sometimes a little darker, sometimes a little fairer, and it can also be found in Corsica, as well, more in the north of the island than the south so far as I can tell from superficial visits.

A comparison with his parents:


And Louis...I'll be very surprised if he and Napoleon turn out not to be full siblings. My bet is on Hortense having strayed, although, as I said, if the stories of Louis' inclinations are true, she should be given a bit of a pass, in my opinion. Her mother Josephine could also hardly be considered a good role model. She couldn't even be faithful for the few months Napoleon was on campaign in Italy.

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