# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Hellens or Romei?

## albanopolis

Greeks of middle ages called themselves Romei. This is the name they called themselves until 1850 when their English and German mentors asked them to change to Hellens. I wonder this is a pretty close word with Romani (Some gypsies call themselves Romani) or Roma (Italian capital).
I wander why did they call themselves so? I don't think they saw themselves part of gypsy culture but neither Roman culture. And still they called themselves Romei? Interesting! The name change came by a legislative law I think and this is something else.
Turks called them Junans and the country was called Junanistan. Also interesting is the fact that Ottomans called Greek sphere of influence in the Balkans as Roumelia in line with what Greeks called themselves(Romeli).
Any one can contribute to clarify this linguistic and historic fact?

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## Yetos

*THE NAME ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ WAS DECIDED IN THE 1820's GREEK REVOLT,*

AT THE 1rst NATIONAL CONGRESS ατ ΕΠΙΔΑΥΡΟΣ 1821-22

the desicion of the 1rst national congress
ot the indipendence of ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ



*http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Greek_...f_Independence*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_N...y_at_Epidaurus




until that day we used the term Ρωμιοι or ΓΡΑΙΚΟΙ (greeks) and Ottomans called us Rums, due to East Roman Epmpire, and the Codex theodosianus, according which Hellenisation should punished by death as paganism,


*
the rest are your political propagandistic agenda, and exist only in Albanian super nationalistic heads,*

Besides ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ = Βορειος Ηπειρος.



for your info,

Yunan and yunanistan for Turks is the indipendent Greek state and citizenship,
Rum and Rumlar are the Greeks and the Greek language in Ottomans and Turkish lands

the con/polis minority Greek community under the treaties is named Rum,
The Con/polis Patriarch is not Yunans Patriarch but Rum patriarch

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## albanopolis

> *THE NAME ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ WAS DECIDED IN THE 1820's GREEK REVOLT,*
> 
> AT THE 1rst NATIONAL CONGRESS ατ ΕΠΙΔΑΥΡΟΣ 1821-22
> 
> the desicion of the 1rst national congress
> ot the indipendence of ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is a propaganda?
The Greek revolution was English inspired, fought almost entirely by Orthodox Albanians (Arvanites)'
You are admitting that you were calling themselves Romei and there was a reason for that.
Greeks had abandoned their ancient Hellenic consciousness in exchange for Romei whatever that is.
To me it means the composition if Greek population was no longer of a Hellenic structure but an amalgam of people that accepted living under the umbrella of a another identity, that of Romei.
Hellenic Republic you are claiming today is a false historical deception made by decree.
Now tell me where is the propaganda you are so mad of?
Facts are facts. History is already being made.

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## Yetos

> What is a propaganda?
> The Greek revolution was English inspired, fought almost entirely by Orthodox Albanians (Arvanites)'
> You are admitting that you were calling themselves Romei and there was a reason for that.
> Greeks had abandoned their ancient Hellenic consciousness in exchange for Romei whatever that is.
> To me it means the composition if Greek population was no longer of a Hellenic structure but an amalgam of people that accepted living under the umbrella of a another identity, that of Romei.
> Hellenic Republic you are claiming today is a false historical deception made by decree.
> Now tell me where is the propaganda you are so mad of?
> Facts are facts. History is already being made.




No Comment just trush information,


ΒΟΡΕΙΟΣ ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ,
ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ

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## albanopolis

> No Comment just trush information,
> 
> 
> ΒΟΡΕΙΟΣ ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ,
> ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ


I would appreciate an explanation about the origin of the name Romei! I know the source of name Graecia (latin origin).
Albanians too have had a name change for their own country. Up to 1500 we were Arberesh.
As an outsider when I see that before 150 years you were Romei and next morning becoming proud Hellenes it raises the possibility of deception in my mind.
The name Romei was not an aberration. It reflected something!

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## Taranis

The explanation is simple: the medieval Byzantines called themselves "Romans", because they saw themselves as the continuation of the Roman Empire. The Turkish term "Junanistan" is derived from the region "Ionia".

Please, bear in mind that there's a difference between an endonym and an exonym.

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## Aberdeen

The classical Greeks called themselves Hellenes. Once the Greeks no longer saw themselves as the centre of an empire (Rome as a mental concept rather than a geographic location), it's not surprising that they would eventually return to calling themselves Hellenes, in memory of their glory days as Greeks.

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## King Bardhyl

@ Taranis and the other moderators, is it possibile to stop the people using nationalistic and chauvinist terms, can you delete the post that speak about Vorio Epirios pls? It`s an offensive post against the albanians.
Thank you

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## Yetos

> @ Taranis and the other moderators, is it possibile to stop the people using nationalistic and chauvinist terms, can you delete the post that speak about Vorio Epirios pls? It`s an offensive post against the albanians.
> Thank you


the termination world wide is North Epiros,

I do not see any nationalistic or chauvinistic term,

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## albanopolis

> The explanation is simple: the medieval Byzantines called themselves "Romans", because they saw themselves as the continuation of the Roman Empire. The Turkish term "Junanistan" is derived from the region "Ionia".
> 
> Please, bear in mind that there's a difference between an endonym and an exonym.


Albanians were also Byzantines and they never saw themselves as Romei.
Why did Greeks?
I am concerned that naturally Greeks did not see themselves as hairs of Hellenes but rather as a collection of people form Rome which is also historically correct.
Because according to your explanation Romani Gypsy also had to see themselves as Romans which is not true.

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## LeBrok

> @ Taranis and the other moderators, is it possibile to stop the people using nationalistic and chauvinist terms, can you delete the post that speak about Vorio Epirios pls? It`s an offensive post against the albanians.
> Thank you


Only if you stop using offensive posts against Greeks, Serbs and the rest of Balkans.

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## Robert6

> @ Taranis and the other moderators, is it possibile to stop the people using nationalistic and chauvinist terms, can you delete the post that speak about Vorio Epirios pls? It`s an offensive post against the albanians.
> Thank you


So then your picture is offensive and nationalistic, how come the territories of Greece FYROM and Montenegro are in Albania?
While Greeks are living in Southern Albania in Northern Epirus.

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## LeBrok

> Albanians were also Byzantines and they never saw themselves as Romei.


 Do you have Albanian records from Middle Ages saying this? So who do you know what Albanians of Middle Ages thought of themselves?





> Because according to your explanation Romani Gypsy also had to see themselves as Romans which is not true.


 It doesn't matter what Gypsy call themselves. It doesn't change historical relationship between Greeks and Romans and etymology of names they called themselves. I can call myself Romulus, or citizens of today's Rome call themselves not Romans but Italians. Again, it has no bearing whatsoever on what Greeks were called and how they want to be called now, or even how Gypsies wants to be called. 
Read Taranis post again for clean and logical explanation to your question, and leave the Gypsies alone. Before your disguised attempt comparing Greeks to Gypsies becomes obvious. 
Attempt to demean Greeks through racism to Gypsies?

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## King Bardhyl

> Only if you stop using offensive posts against Greeks, Serbs and the rest of Balkans.


Can you bring me an offensive post ?
It‘s shame for you that are part of this 
disgusting game.

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## King Bardhyl

> Only if you stop using offensive posts against Greeks, Serbs and the rest of Balkans.


So LeBrok i am waiting your proves, the next time you hid will do so this time?

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## King Bardhyl

> So then your picture is offensive and nationalistic, how come the territories of Greece FYROM and Montenegro are in Albania?
> While Greeks are living in Southern Albania in Northern Epirus.


I have to explain my friend. My paternal grandfather is from Drenica region Kosova, my paternal grandmother is from Chameria region today in Greece.
My grandfather from mother is from Shkup today Fyrom and my grandmother from mother is from Ulqin today Montenegro. 
My grandparents, ethnic Albanians in have come Albania because they have driven from their homeland by the Greeks and Serbs in different periods of time. They have shown me the horrors that they have experienced when they left their homeland.
You will ask me why this thing happened? 
And I'll tell you. In the early nineteenth century your country Russia had a plan for the creation of two states in the Balkans, Greece, Serbia, which Russia wanted to have as an ally. Albanians were not in these plans, so the shortest route was annihilation of the Albanians.
Disasters and wars in the Balkans have been due to nationalist platforms. There are two countries in the Balkans that have nationalist platform, Serbia with Na?ertanije - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Greece with  Megali_Idea 
.
No other Balkan countries have a nationalist platform. *WE albanians don`t have an nationalistic platforms.*
*The main responsibility for this situation to my nation is your country, RUSSIA.*

We, Albanians know very well our national borders. I am about to quote you a very famous author, *George Finlay* regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on History of the Greek Revolution.

History of the Greek Revolution (1861) Volume: 1

The Albanians

The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call themselves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occupied the regions they now inhabit before the days of Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedonians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets with his Macedonian officers. 

Nearly the same boundary separates the Hellenic from the non-Hellenic population at the present day as in ancient times. Thucydides calls the Amphilochians who dwelt at the head of the Gulf of Arta barbarians. Strabo says that one race inhabited the whole country, from the Acroceraunian Mountains to the borders of Thessaly and to the plain of Pelagonia, under the name of Epirots or Macedonians, for both spoke the same language.
 The whole of Albania, from the Gulf of Arta to the Lake of Skodra, is divided into innumerable lateral valleys by rugged mountains, which render the communications so difficult as to confine trade to a few lines of transport.

This is called *AUTOCTHONOUS.*

But we, Albanians think that Balkan countries should leave after nationalism and follow the example of Germany and France. We do not forget history, but we decided to look ahead.
We think that the way our country is integration into the European family and not to deal with maps and notions of nineteenth-century.
We believe that in this family will find a solution and the Albanian national problem.
We do not think that changing the borders will solve this problem. We think that the basic values ​​of the civilized world as democracy, law enforcement, human rights are the only solution to our national problem.
The problem is that some members here have a clear antialbanian agenda.I've reported many times to the moderators but nobody takes action here.
*Do you agree with this you Robert6?*

P.S.
If you are interesed i can bring a lot of evidences,although some of them are really horrible and will stun you.

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## albanopolis

> Do you have Albanian records from Middle Ages saying this? So who do you know what Albanians of Middle Ages thought of themselves?
> 
> 
> Because according to your explanation Romani Gypsy also had to see themselves as Romans which is not true.


 It doesn't matter what Gypsy call themselves. It doesn't change historical relationship between Greeks and Romans and etymology of names they called themselves. I can call myself Romulus, or citizens of today's Rome call themselves not Romans but Italians. Again, it has no bearing whatsoever on what Greeks were called and how they want to be called now, or even how Gypsies wants to be called. 
Read Taranis post again for clean and logical explanation to your question, and leave the Gypsies alone. Before your disguised attempt comparing Greeks to Gypsies becomes obvious. 
Attempt to demean Greeks through racism to Gypsies?[/QUOTE]

My concern is that the nomination of today's Greeks as Hellenes might be an inaccurate description of today's Greek population. Its a nomination by decree not by god's will. The same thing are trying to do Slavic Macedonians by calling themselves by decree Macedonians and Greeks are going insane all over the place.
Your simplified explanation that Romei came from Rome is questionable.
How come a nation that was supposed to illuminate the world, that never forgot to write and read, all of the sudden forgot its name? 
A possible explanation is that today's Greek population is partially Hellene, where foreign elements are a majority in the Greek state. Living example is Hungary where the seemingly Hun minority imposed their language and culture to Gothic elements. I did not take the Romani Gypsi example to compare them racially Greeks but to oppose your superficially simplistic explanation that whoever has the root word Roma is because of Romans.
Greeks at 1800 were under Turkish occupation and according to the rule you are explaining their name should have been Ottomanei. The name change was advised by English and Germans.
My point is that one explanation is that there were to many foreign people there and the name Hellen is an exaggeration.

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## Yetos

> i have to explain my friend. My paternal grandfather is from drenica region kosova, my paternal grandmother is from chameria region today in greece.
> My grandfather from mother is from shkup today fyrom and my grandmother from mother is from ulqin today montenegro. 
> My grandparents, ethnic albanians in have come albania because they have driven from their homeland by the greeks and serbs in different periods of time. They have shown me the horrors that they have experienced when they left their homeland.
> You will ask me why this thing happened? 
> And i'll tell you. In the early nineteenth century your country russia had a plan for the creation of two states in the balkans, greece, serbia, which russia wanted to have as an ally. Albanians were not in these plans, so the shortest route was annihilation of the albanians.
> Disasters and wars in the balkans have been due to nationalist platforms. There are two countries in the balkans that have nationalist platform, serbia with na?ertanije - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and greece with  megali_idea 
> .
> No other balkan countries have a nationalist platform. *we albanians don`t have an nationalistic platforms.*
> *the main responsibility for this situation to my nation is your country, russia.*
> ...




ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ = ΗΕΠΕΙΡΟΣ
aytochthonos archegonos ellas = epiros


the maps of Georgiev by wiki



1rst map





2nd map


ok I personally have my arquments about some things,
the above maps with little correction, at least for me, is mostly based upon the world around and little before troyan war

but is obvious that what if Greek origin from IE arsenic bronze road then starting place was lake Lychnitis or Lyncistis in Makedonian dialect, modern Ohrid,
and from there spread south,

if we choose the other hypothesis the Greco-aryan then starting place was West minor Asia and from there pass to Epirus, the story of Driopes (druids),

but we know that Greeks was a sub nationality , a coalition of tribes, of what we call Ellenes,
Myceneans was the south part, Greeks the North part,
the global termination Greek, pass to Latinoromans as the Alphabet by the Cyme colony,
Κυμη in Greece was a city inhabited by Greeks not myceneans, not minoans, etc etc,


PS 
by what I know, this maps are about to be more specific and more analized even with dialectal details,
that is what I am expecting,
truth is I expected much from Duridanov, but expected little wrong,
although both have their points and good work, but I still keep my arquements, always in academic frames.



now about the imagination of our super nationalistic neighbors, better read modern sources, and also parts from first hand,
not rumors, I suggest to read the Kolokotronis memories, so to 'land' on truth,

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## Yetos

> I have to explain my friend. My paternal grandfather is from Drenica region Kosova, my paternal grandmother is from Chameria region today in Greece.
> My grandfather from mother is from Shkup today Fyrom and my grandmother from mother is from Ulqin today Montenegro. 
> My grandparents, ethnic Albanians in have come Albania because they have driven from their homeland by the Greeks and Serbs in different periods of time. They have shown me the horrors that they have experienced when they left their homeland.
> You will ask me why this thing happened? 
> And I'll tell you. In the early nineteenth century your country Russia had a plan for the creation of two states in the Balkans, Greece, Serbia, which Russia wanted to have as an ally. Albanians were not in these plans, so the shortest route was annihilation of the Albanians.
> Disasters and wars in the Balkans have been due to nationalist platforms. There are two countries in the Balkans that have nationalist platform, Serbia with Na?ertanije - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Greece with  Megali_Idea 
> .
> No other Balkan countries have a nationalist platform. *WE albanians don`t have an nationalistic platforms.*
> *The main responsibility for this situation to my nation is your country, RUSSIA.*
> ...




Greeks did not driven away Chams,
Chams left after the judge of Saluka, cause they were afraid, due to the paramythia massacre made by Albanians
remember Xylia, Σαλουκα etc.
with help of Italians fasist and Nazi Germans Chams claim Epirus as Albania and started to excecute all Greek legal authorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions


In the Hostages Trial in Nuremberg (1948) the American judges called the executions in Paramythia "plain murder".[11]


even the papper with names exist with the marks of Xylia,

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## King Bardhyl

way off topic

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## LeBrok

> My concern is that the nomination of today's Greeks as Hellenes might be an inaccurate description of today's Greek population. Its a nomination by decree not by god's will. The same thing are trying to do Slavic Macedonians by calling themselves by decree Macedonians and Greeks are going insane all over the place.


Whatever, this is what they wish to be called. If you curious if there is continuity with ancient Greeks with modern Greeks, it is a different story. You should word you question differently. Explanation of there Romei name is in Taranis post. Just watch your intentions. I might not be this forgiving next time.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

We are Greeks and speak Greek. From which we have learned; 
-From Greek-speaking Mongols; 
-From Greek-speaking Albanians; 
-From ... Who; 


The Greeks survived in the best way, our language and our way and our values ​​are omnipresent. 


Romei? - The "National" or the Greeks appreciated the very law that exempt them from the evils of civil conflict and thus the first to recognize as the Romans of the Empire in general, and not only the Greeks but also all citizens of the Empire. The definition Romans also suggests national identity not religion but declares citizenship. 


Greekies; _ Graecylus; (Graescissantes;) endorsing Greek customs and habits of behavior. (Εspecially the Romans, and of course the Gentiles and pagans.) 
What we must realize is that essentially that Greece conquered Rome and probably not the opposite (!) 
and not to underestimate the Romans would say that probably would not have saved anything from the old world (I mean the pagan and all relevant Secretariat of antiquity which still survives to the present day) 
My personal assessment is that the large supply of Romans is succinctly: 
* Pax Romana (-Peace) 
* The road connecting the provinces and aqueducts 
* Bulk production. (Something that the Greeks never had Utilization and knowledge) 
* Massive movements of a resident population. 

(for the Greeks and the Greek spaking Italians)
<<_απασών γλωσσών το ελληνικόν υπέρκειται γένος... Πάσα τόινυν φιλοσοφία και γνώσις Ελλήνων εύρεμα… Συ δε, ω Ιταλέ, τίνος ένεκεν εγκαυχά>>. ( Ι will not dare to translate it..)_
 Theodore Laskaris II
<<_Και έστιν ιδείν και Λατίνον ενταύθα παιδοτριβούμενον και Σκύθην ελληνίζοντα και Ρωμαίον τα των Ελλήνων συγγράμματα μεταχειριζόμενον και τον αγράμματον Έλληνα ορθώς ελληνίζοντα>>._ 
Alexia Comninnus to "Alexiada"for the orphans shelter οf Alexios


We are the Greeks, we are the romans. Like it or not, just get used to it, we survived... !


Be Proud of your ancestors dont feel misery about your origin, you are not Greek, neither Roman... you are Albanian.and we have to live together. (as balkanians)


( i translate it with googlee, Is it clear my thesis?)

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## albanopolis

> Whatever, this is what they wish to be called. If you curious if there is continuity with ancient Greeks with modern Greeks, it is a different story. You should word you question differently. Explanation of there Romei name is in Taranis post. Just watch your intentions. I might not be this forgiving next time.


Taranis post might satisfy you, not me who knows the composition of today's Greek state. There are assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8 million inhabitants of non Hellenistic heritage. That is why as time went by the population of Greece did not see itself as the heir of Hellenes and called themselves Romei. 
Why do they go insane when people of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians? Even they are not Macedonians but so they are not Hellens?
I don't really care about your threats of banning me when you don't like the postings. You have done it before and could do it again. But when the debate has substance, such as an historical fact that raises doubts its civilized to allow the debate. If you shut down the debate then you belong to people who represent dark ages. Other wise why don't you open a Slavic History Forum where you can make each other feel good and praise one another with slogans of orthodoxy. I think you are lucky enough to live in the west and you should know the importance of the debate.
Why can't you accept you have learned things you did not know about the history of the Balkans through this debatable topics of this history forum?
How can you accept that Greeks woke up one day and said: Lets call ourselves Romei!
You can't accept that structural changes of society brought such changes?!

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

Realise it everything come close to Greece... becomes Greek !
-And you are so close  :Wink:

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## King Bardhyl

> Realise it everything come close to Greece... becomes Greek !
> -And you are so close


Re Pallkari, milas poli esi. Apo pou eise re maga, Gigifies, Termathiseos, i Platia Davaqi ? Kala......
Very interesting your point of wiew .

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## Yetos

> Re Pallkari, milas poli esi. Apo pou eise re maga, Gigifies, Termathiseos, i Platia Davaqi ? Kala......
> Very interesting your point of wiew .


and offcourse this Albanian guy does speak Greek,
but writes the Greeklish (Internet Greek with latin characters) Perfect

ante geia, kai ase tis mpoyrdes,

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## LeBrok

> Taranis post might satisfy you, not me who knows the composition of today's Greek state. There are assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8 million inhabitants of non Hellenistic heritage.


 So what? Original Hellens were also of mixed origin. We are talking about Greek culture and its continuity, not genetics. Read the title of this thread.




> That is why as time went by the population of Greece did not see itself as the heir of Hellenes and called themselves Romei.


 It is not. Read Taranis post for only valid explanation. Stop trying to invent new history.




> Why do they go insane when people of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians?


 Perhaps because they are as intolerant as you are? 




> But when the debate has substance, such as an historical fact that raises doubts its civilized to allow the debate.


 It looks like there are just Albanian Facts, which don't exist to the rest of the world.




> Why can't you accept you have *learned things* you did not know about the *history of the Balkans* through this debatable topics of this history forum?


 Do you mean "Albanian Facts"?




> How can you accept that Greeks woke up one day and said: Lets call ourselves Romei!


 This is an "Albanian Fact". The rest of the world knows that Greeks belonged to Roman Empire and slowly through centuries learned to accept themselves as Romans. Roman empire lasted the longest in Greece that's why Greeks called themselves Romans the longest of all populations of Roman Empire. Actually there is another population of Balkans with similar traditions Romanians and they even speak one of latin languages. Do Romanias deserve their name?
Perhaps you present another "Albanian Fact" proving that their name also comes from Gypsies?




> You can't accept that structural changes of society brought such changes?!


 In thread's title you asked a question about origin of names Greeks used. We already answered these questions. There are no secrets.
Now you are arguing that *they don't deserve these names*! This is completely different question. Just be careful how you show your intolerance arguing your point.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> Re Pallkari, milas poli esi. Apo pou eise re maga, Gigifies, Termathiseos, i Platia Davaqi ? Kala......
> Very interesting your point of wiew .


Yia sou @Bardyl.
I am from my fathers balls (planets i mean! And not the salty ones!) and I am your Best friend of your people but you dont know it. 
I will try to give an end to this my friend and please help me because i really want a help.

Let's stand together and unite the balkans. Here not elsewhere but here (eupedia), me, you, Yetos, Garrick, Ike, Albanopolis, our friends, our families, our neighbours, everyone... 
and tell them that the time has come and a new era is coming. 

The Balkans (my beloved people, my people!) should stand together. 
Come with me (Both of us) do not come against me. 
Lets make a new Ethnos and a new Ethos.

Here and now Bardyll lets make a true History that everyone will be proud, come my friend, come! 
-without boots, of course  :Wink:

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## King Bardhyl

> Yia sou @Bardyl.
> I am from my fathers balls (planets i mean! And not the salty ones!) and I am your Best friend of your people but you dont know it. 
> I will try to give an end to this my friend and please help me because i really want a help.
> 
> Let's stand together and unite the balkans. Here not elsewhere but here (eupedia), me, you, Yetos, Garrick, Ike, Albanopolis, our friends, our families, our neighbours, everyone... 
> and tell them that the time has come and a new era is coming. 
> 
> The Balkans (my beloved people, my people!) should stand together. 
> Come with me (Both of us) do not come against me. 
> ...


Totally agree with you my friend .
And let's make the first step here in this forum. 
I propose to make a petition to the Greek Government, and say to cancel the Law of War versus Albania. 
This Law of War is from 1940 when Italy attacked Greece, and it's not normal because both countries Albania and Greece are part of NATO,also Greece is member of EU and Albania is candidate to be member of full rights. 
After this i can be back at the lands of my ancestors in Cameria region today part of Greece, and i can keep back my property that are under sequester by greek state and i can invite you to make party after .
Do you agree my sarakatsiani friend ?

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## Robert6

*Hellenes or Romei?
The answer is Romei.
I think that Magna-Grecians of South Italy, and Vorio-Epirotes of southern Albania should be closer to ancient Greeks, then modern Greeks.
Modern Greeks becouse of "Apedia"(No Children) in Central Greece are descedants of the mix of Romans(Italic-Etruscan) + Slavic(Slavic and Ugric-Turkic-Bulgarian) + Hellenized Anatolians + some Hellenes.
**


*

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

a... and then we go to Constantinople (my Place;) and have a rave Party into Hagia Sophia! Party with ouza! Me , you, A. Samaras, E. Rama, & Conchita! (Like a rock band!)

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## King Bardhyl

> a... and then we go to Constantinople (my Place;) and have a rave Party into Hagia Sophia! Party with ouza! Me , you, A. Samaras, E. Rama, & Conchita! (Like a rock band!)


A sarakatsiani from Instanbul ? Maybe, everything can happened.
No Concita, i propose Eleni Menegaki.

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## Robert6

> *Hellenes or Romei?
> The answer is Romei.
> I think that Magna-Grecians of South Italy, and Vorio-Epirotes of southern Albania should be closer to ancient Greeks, then modern Greeks.
> Modern Greeks becouse of "Apedia"(No Children) in Central Greece are descedants of the mix of Romans(Italic-Etruscan) + Slavic(Slavic and Ugric-Turkic-Bulgarian) + Hellenized Anatolians + some Hellenes.
> *


For example there is no Proto-Bulgarian Onoghuric subclade *N1c1a1a2b**L1034* in Bulgary but you can find this subclade in Peloponesus Greece
*Marker Location: Elaiochori, Greece
**N1c1 - Ugric Subclade (L1026+)(Z1936+)(L1034+)
*https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *Hellenes or Romei?
> The answer is Romei.
> I think that Magna-Grecians of South Italy, and Vorio-Epirotes of southern Albania should be closer to ancient Greeks, then modern Greeks.
> Modern Greeks becouse of "Apedia"(No Children) in Central Greece are descedants of the mix of Romans(Italic-Etruscan) + Slavic(Slavic and Ugric-Turkic-Bulgarian) + Hellenized Anatolians + some Hellenes.
> **
> 
> 
> *


Be careful, my friend . I have a month that i published documents that confirm your theory.
And the moderator are penalize me for this .
You have to understand the official theory that greeks are a race of supermens who survive during the history without mixing with others.

----------


## Robert6

> A sarakatsiani from Instanbul ? Maybe, everything can happened.
> No Concita, i propose Eleni Menegaki.


Bad choice, Menegaki is again pregnant. ))))

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Bad choice, Menegaki is again pregnant. ))))


Mono tripa na eine, den pirazi.
Really? I didn`t know this.

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## Robert6

> Mono tripa na eine, den pirazi.
> Really? I didn`t know this.


Καλά ρε, δεν ντρέπεσαι;
So you are not in Greece now?

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## Robert6

Που πάει ο κόσμος; Ρώσοι και Αλβανοί συνεννοούνται στα Ελληνικά! ))))

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## Yetos

> For example there is no Proto-Bulgarian Onoghuric subclade *N1c1a1a2b**L1034* in Bulgary but you can find this subclade in Peloponesus Greece
> *Marker Location: Elaiochori, Greece
> **N1c1 - Ugric Subclade (L1026+)(Z1936+)(L1034+)
> *https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults




α ρε τραχανα,

ποσο PC4 εχει εκει που μενεις?
'η μαλλον εχει μονο PC1?


ante parte fora oloi sas kai klaste ta Pelasgika G2a @@ moy,

mono fasolia mhn fate prin.

kai 1 Ellhnas na yparxei einai arketon.

----------


## Robert6

> α ρε τραχανα,
> 
> ποσο PC4 εχει εκει που μενεις?
> 'η μαλλον εχει μονο PC1?
> 
> 
> ante parte fora oloi sas kai klaste ta Pelasgika G2a @@ moy,
> 
> mono fasolia mhn fate prin.
> ...


ρε γαμ.μ.νε φούστη και εγώ G2a @@ έχω. ))))))
Αλλά αν τα θεωρείς τα δικά σου Πελασγικά άντε να τα κόψεις, και να τα φας. ))) 
Η' μάλλον αφού είσαι G2a κάνε πολλά παιδιά να πολλαπλασιάζουμε το είδος μας.

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## Robert6

If Pelasgians were close to Etrurians or to Basque, then most possibly they had R1b and not G2a

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## King Bardhyl

> Do you have Albanian records from Middle Ages saying this? So who do you know what Albanians of Middle Ages thought of themselves?





I'm not convinced that you understand something of genetics. Regarding history, I sincerely invite you to not deal with this. To speak about something need to read books, not to see the covers of books.

*John Hobhouse*


_British traveller and writer, John Cameron Hobhouse (1786-1869), also known as Lord Broughton, was born near Bristol. He was educated at Westminster School and attended Trinity College, Cambridge, where he founded the Whig Club and an Amicable Society. It was at Cambridge that he met and became an intimate friend of the poet Lord Byron, with whom he travelled in 1809-1810 to Albania, Greece and Turkey, in particular to Janina (Ioannina) and as far north as the court of Ali Pasha in Tepellenè (Tepelena). Hobhouse later became a member of parliament, served as secretary for war in the cabinet of Earl Grey in 1832 and held positions in later governments. The memoirs of his travels to Albania with Byron (whom he does not mention) were published in the volume “A Journey through Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia to Constantinople during the Years 1809 and 1810,” London 1813._


“…it certain that the Christians, who can fairly be called Albanian, are scarcely, if at all, to be distinguished from Mahometans. They carry arms, and many of them are enrolled in the service of Ali, and differ in no respect from other . There is a spirit of independence and a love of the country, in the whole people, that, in a grater measure, does away the vast distinction, observable in other parts of Turkey, between the followers of of two religions. For when the natives of other provinces, upon being asked who they are, will say, “we are Turks” or, we are “Christians.”* A man of this country answers, “I am an Albanian.”


You see?

*“They are strewn with the wreckage of dead Empires–past Powers–only the Albanian “goes on for ever.”
- Edith Durham

----------


## LeBrok

> I'm not convinced that you understand something of genetics. Regarding history, I sincerely invite you to not deal with this. To speak about something need to read books, not to see the covers of books.
> 
> *John Hobhouse*
> 
> 
> _British traveller and writer, John Cameron Hobhouse (1786-1869), also known as Lord Broughton, was born near Bristol. He was educated at Westminster School and attended Trinity College, Cambridge, where he founded the Whig Club and an Amicable Society. It was at Cambridge that he met and became an intimate friend of the poet Lord Byron, with whom he travelled in 1809-1810 to Albania, Greece and Turkey, in particular to Janina (Ioannina) and as far north as the court of Ali Pasha in Tepellenè (Tepelena). Hobhouse later became a member of parliament, served as secretary for war in the cabinet of Earl Grey in 1832 and held positions in later governments. The memoirs of his travels to Albania with Byron (whom he does not mention) were published in the volume “A Journey through Albania and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia to Constantinople during the Years 1809 and 1810,” London 1813._
> 
> 
> “…it certain that the Christians, who can fairly be called Albanian, are scarcely, if at all, to be distinguished from Mahometans. They carry arms, and many of them are enrolled in the service of Ali, and differ in no respect from other . There is a spirit of independence and a love of the country, in the whole people, that, in a grater measure, does away the vast distinction, observable in other parts of Turkey, between the followers of of two religions. For when the natives of other provinces, upon being asked who they are, will say, “we are Turks” or, we are “Christians.”* A man of this country answers, “I am an Albanian.”
> ...


This is precious lol. I'm talking about Middle Ages and you deliver the proof of Albanian "self recognition" from nineteenth century!
I think we had enough of your arrogance, impertinence, nationalism, misinformation, ignorance and no respect to members of Eupedia. You are banned. And yes, for plagiarism too. You plastered someone elses beautiful book about Albania without a slightest credit to your country man who has spent years making this book.
I'm sure Maciamo will elect to delete Discover Albania thread not to risk copyright lawsuit.

----------


## albanopolis

> If Pelasgians were close to Etrurians or to Basque, then most possibly they had R1b and not G2a


Pelasgians were certainly I1+I2. The I haplogroup is one of the oldest in Europe who survived the ice age. One of the best places to survive was the coastline of Adriatic, ionian sea (ionian=ours in albanian). G2 and J2 are also possible mixed with I

----------


## Dianatomia

Had the peoples in the central Balkans of which the Albanians claim decent created cities like Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Athens and the like, then perhaps we wouldn´t have to cope with this envy of Albanians on Greeks on Forums like these. 

Romioi or Hellenes?
Hellenes or Danaans?

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## albanopolis

> Had the peoples in the central Balkans of which the Albanians claim decent created cities like Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Athens and the like, then perhaps we wouldn´t have to cope with this vanity of Albanians on Greeks on Forums like these. 
> 
> Romioi or Hellenes?
> Hellenes or Danaans?



Its a valid question to ask about decree name change by Greeks.
Greeks had in their medieval churches the works of antiquity. And in those books was spoken about the Hellenic period of civilization and medieval Greeks never bothered to call themselves Hellene because they did not feel Hellene. They felt Romei!
Athens in 1820 was Arvanites inhabited. Greeks had abandoned it for whatever reason. After Arvanites wan the war, Greeks outsmarted and betrayed them. Most of Arvanites ended up killed behind their back. Then Greeks started to change street names from Albanian to Hellenic.
The argument that because of Rome Greeks felt Romei is an aromatic fart.
Rome stood at least 100 years more in Albania, the major cities of Albania spoke Latin and Albanians never felt Romei, Why did Greeks?
Then a reasonable answer is that by 1820 Greek population was so mixed up with other ethnicities so much that Hellenism did not make sense.
You are Hellene as much as Skopjans are Macedonians. 
Do you accept the fact that existing antique population of Macedonia mixed with incoming Slavs?
If you do then they are partly Macedonians also. Maybe 20% or 30%. But so do you? You are just 32% Hellenes. The rest are Romei. How come a Romei population clams authenticy of Hellenism?
So if you see in this prism the question of Romei is a legitimate one.
Forumer's here are going insane that Illyrian and Albanian are two different things, but Romei and Hellene is the same thing! Really?

----------


## Yetos

> Its a valid question to ask about decree name change by Greeks.
> Greeks had in their medieval churches the works of antiquity. And in those books was spoken about the Hellenic period of civilization and medieval Greeks never bothered to call themselves Hellene because they did not feel Hellene. They felt Romei!
> Athens in 1820 was Arvanites inhabited. Greeks had abandoned it for whatever reason. After Arvanites wan the war, Greeks outsmarted and betrayed them. Most of Arvanites ended up killed behind their back. Then Greeks started to change street names from Albanian to Hellenic.
> The argument that because of Rome Greeks felt Romei is an aromatic fart.
> Rome stood at least 100 years more in Albania, the major cities of Albania spoke Latin and Albanians never felt Romei, Why did Greeks?
> Then a reasonable answer is that by 1820 Greek population was so mixed up with other ethnicities so much that Hellenism did not make sense.
> You are Hellene as much as Skopjans are Macedonians. 
> Do you accept the fact that existing antique population of Macedonia mixed with incoming Slavs?
> If you do then they are partly Macedonians also. Maybe 20% or 30%. But so do you? You are just 32% Hellenes. The rest are Romei. How come a Romei population clams authenticy of Hellenism?
> ...


ok

better read again what word Ελλην meant in East roman empire,

THEY FELT GREEKS, AND THEY WERE GREEKS,
BUT THEY WERE AFRAID FROM GUYS LIKE YOU, AND CODEX THEODOSIANUS, AND CHURCH, 
SO WORD ΕΛΛΗΝ WAS TABBOO, IT MEANT SUICIDE.
SIMPLY THEY USE THE WORD RUM ΡΩΜΙΟΣ AS CERTIFICATION OF NOT PAGAN,

you never read codex theodosianus, and rest codexes, 

IT IS LIKE a GORANI IN ALBANIA SAY I AM SLAV

----------


## LeBrok

> Forumer's here are going insane that Illyrian and Albanian are two different things,


 Obviously you didn't supply irrefutable proof of your hypothesis. Do we know what language Illyrians spoke, was is proto Albanian? Can you present genetic continuity of Illyrians into Albanians? If not genetic, try cultural continuity, the language, religion, food, music, etc.
The Illyrian-Albanian notion could be true as well, but there is not enough evidence to prove it, or any evidence at all, except wishful thinking of some Albanians.





> but Romei and Hellene *is the same thing*! Really?


 Could you quote a post here saying that Romei and Hellene are exactly same thing. Perhaps more important question is "Why your brain invents inexistant things?". 
Unlike Illyrian-Albanian question, we know from hundreds of ancient sources that today's Greeks cary cultural continuity from ancient Hellenes. Even if only in form of language. I'm sure we will have also genetic evidence soon pointing to Hellenes as mostly their ancestors.

More and more it becomes obvious to me that you are here not to look for knowledge or the truth, but to find a ways to degrade and attack Greeks.

----------


## Ike

> Taranis post might satisfy you, not me who knows the composition of today's Greek state. There are assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8 million inhabitants of non Hellenistic heritage.


You do realize that if Albanians were autochthonous they would have been Romei too?

----------


## albanopolis

> You do realize that if Albanians were autochthonous they would have been Romei too?


Had they been Romei because of Rome they should have had something culturally inherited from Rome. Greeks I know have nothing inherited from them, not Catholicism ( Albanians are catholic from Rome by the way) not aesthetic Latin scripture, nothing. Had they had cultural links to Rome they should have had something.They could have had some cultural affectations at least. Average Greek I know hate the west. They despise America and Germany,hate Italians and they look down on Jews.
An American friend of mine told me that Greeks only the stomach have with the west, but their hearts and minds are with Russia. They are in Nato out of fear of Turkey, otherwise they would have been in military alliance with Russia. But since Russian military is a joke,they entered alliance out of convenience not conviction. They were afraid Russian military could not be a match for Turkey's.
So, its clear the name Romei came from a Normandic tribes that entered Hellenes in the dark ages. The only other Romani I know are gypsies, but might have been another one that I don't know.

----------


## Taranis

> Had they been Romei because of Rome they should have had something culturally inherited from Rome. Greeks I know have nothing inherited from them, not Catholicism ( Albanians are catholic from Rome by the way) not aesthetic Latin scripture, nothing. Had they had cultural links to Rome they should have had something.They could have had some cultural affectations at least.


You _do_ know that the difference between "Catholicism" and "Orthodox" Christianity only emerged during the Middle Ages, and that this was mainly based on a power play between the Franks and the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, right? Greek was the administrative language of the eastern Mediterranean since the days of Alexander's conquests (the only other widely-used language, in the Near East at least, was Aramaic, which was also the every-day language of the people in Roman Judaea). And when the Romans absorbed the Hellenistic states one by one they kept that system. It was a natural evolution upon the demise of the western Roman Empire that Greek would be the language of the Byzantine Empire if most of their population spoke Greek. Furthermore, Greek was the language of Christianity, this is what all the scripture was written in (including the Septuagint, that translation of the Old Testament from the Hellenistic), and Christianity was de-facto the state religion of the Byzantine Empire. The transformation from the eastern portion of the Roman Empire to the entity that the historians call the "Byzantine Empire" was a seamless one.




> Average Greek I know hate the west. They despise America and Germany,hate Italians and they look down on Jews.
> An American friend of mine told me that Greeks only the stomach have with the west, but their hearts and minds are with Russia.


Mind your words and really, don't generalize before you make such accusations.




> They are in Nato out of fear of Turkey, otherwise they would have been in military alliance with Russia. But since Russian military is a joke,they entered alliance out of convenience not conviction. They were afraid Russian military could not be a match for Turkey's.


You are aware that there was this epoch of history called the "Cold War", during which the Soviet Union, which had emerged victorious from World War II, and the possibility of an outbreak of World War III "at any moment now" (including the prospect of atomic armageddon) loomed over Europe?




> So, its clear the name Romei came from a Normandic tribes that entered Hellenes in the dark ages. The only other Romani I know are gypsies, but might have been another one that I don't know.


The name "Roma" is etymologically unrelated, its a false twin.

----------


## albanopolis

> You _do_ know that the difference between "Catholicism" and "Orthodox" Christianity only emerged during the Middle Ages, and that this was mainly based on a power play between the Franks and the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire, right? Greek was the administrative language of the eastern Mediterranean since the days of Alexander's conquests (the only other widely-used language, in the Near East at least, was Aramaic, which was also the every-day language of the people in Roman Judaea). And when the Romans absorbed the Hellenistic states one by one they kept that system. It was a natural evolution upon the demise of the western Roman Empire that Greek would be the language of the Byzantine Empire if most of their population spoke Greek. Furthermore, Greek was the language of Christianity, this is what all the scripture was written in (including the Septuagint, that translation of the Old Testament from the Hellenistic), and Christianity was de-facto the state religion of the Byzantine Empire. The transformation from the eastern portion of the Roman Empire to the entity that the historians call the "Byzantine Empire" was a seamless one.
> 
> 
> 
> Mind your words and really, don't generalize before you make such accusations.
> 
> 
> 
> You are aware that there was this epoch of history called the "Cold War", during which the Soviet Union, which had emerged victorious from World War II, and the possibility of an outbreak of World War III "at any moment now" (including the prospect of atomic armageddon) loomed over Europe?
> ...


What? Average Greek is not anti western?
What world do you live in?
When Merkel visited Athens lats year, they met her to a secrete location by helicopter for talks. Greeks had taken the streets with axes to meet her.
How many times a Pope has visited Greece? A Pope feels a lot comfortable visiting Turkey a country where 101% of people are Muslims than Greece. Popes have never attempted to visit Greeks since anti west feelings run high.
When you don't respect Pope, the head of spirituality of the west then how can you be western oriented?
I am convinced that because of Romei heritage, genetics of Greeks which express itself in behavior of its people is anti west. Every country tryed to help USA in Afghanistan but Greece.

----------


## Ike

You don't understand. If Albanians are autochthonous, like Greek, then I see no reason why, according to your theory, Albanians would not also be:




> assimilated Turks there, Gypsies, Arvanites, Slavs, Vlahs, Arabs, Armenians, Buggars, Avars, Huns,Vandals. In total there could be 7-8  (1-2) million inhabitants of non Hellenistic (Albanian) heritage.


Do you claim it to be true, or you suggest any other theory why the Romei from the territory that is today referred as Albania would not be influenced by this phenomena just as same as their neighbouring Romei from the territory that is today referred as Greece?

----------


## Yetos

> What? Average Greek is not anti western?
> What world do you live in?
> When Merkel visited Athens lats year, they met her to a secrete location by helicopter for talks. Greeks had taken the streets with axes to meet her.
> How many times a Pope has visited Greece? A Pope feels a lot comfortable visiting Turkey a country where 101% of people are Muslims than Greece. Popes have never attempted to visit Greeks since anti west feelings run high.
> When you don't respect Pope, the head of spirituality of the west then how can you be western oriented?
> I am convinced that because of Romei heritage, genetics of Greeks which express itself in behavior of its people is anti west. Every country tryed to help USA in Afghanistan but Greece.


you have 'strange' view of what is WEST,

WEST is not Pope of Rome, neither Mercel, 
in Afganistan Greece send 600 troops, in Anti-Somalian piracy send 2 boats, etc etc

in you think like that, there is inside EU parliament a coalition, with Italian Pepe Grillo and English Farage (sorry if spell wrong)
*Does this makes England or Italy anti-West?*
*in North Europe are mostly protestants, does this make North Europe anti-West?*

*at least can you explain us what is WEST?* fo you?

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> you have 'strange' view of what is WEST,
> 
> WEST is not Pope of Rome, neither Mercel, 
> in Afganistan Greece send 600 troops, in Anti-Somalian piracy send 2 boats, etc etc
> 
> in you think like that, there is inside EU parliament a coalition, with Italian Pepe Grillo and English Farage (sorry if spell wrong)
> *Does this makes England or Italy anti-West?*
> *in North Europe are mostly protestants, does this make North Europe anti-West?*
> 
> *at least can you explain us what is WEST?* fo you?


Where is west? _(-the hobbit from middle earth asked the Golum... -From the lord of the chimps.)

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

1) Ζεύς ήν, Ζευς εστί, Ζεύς έσσεται... (Τhe Peleiades to the oracle of Dodonae)

2) O Kύριος, ο Ών, ο Ήν, και ο Έρχόμενος... ( to john of Apocalypse) 

trnslt 1) Zeus was, Zeus is, Zeus will be...
2) the same instead of Zeus= ( θεός =theos=god) but as -Κύριος (lord) an epithet for a person and a god;

From Pelasgians to Greeks to Helleenes to Romans to Νeohelleenes... to the Stars! - (no west neither east, only up!)

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## albanopolis

I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.
Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.
> Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?


I agree. We are the greek speaking Slavalbanians! Nothing closer to the greeks.
ok?... Maybe happy now?

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

I could never doubt a person what or how it defines itself.
Only with the Greeks these things happened! 

The Greeks are not the Greeks because all the others around the Greeks are more Greeks than the surrounded Greeks -which they learn greeks from whom by the way?
What you really want to prove? Could you possible agree that you would also be happy to consider yourself... maybe as a Greek;

----------


## Taranis

> I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.


A funny coincidence that Greek (Ελληνικα) is the official language of Greece (Ελλας).




> Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?


Had you actually read my earlier post, you would have noticed that this statement of yours is completely ignorant of history. Rome never "left Greece" in the 5th century. The eastern half of the Roman Empire continued seamlessly as the Byzantine Empire. (I might repeat to say that this is a modern term used by historians (another term is "Eastern Roman Empire"), but the key issue is that the Byzantine Empire was a continuation of the Roman Empire, in Greek language, under Christian religion, and it certainly did not end in the 5th century, but in 1453, when the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople.

As for the supposed "non-coherence", there was no doubt population movement during the Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods, in so far it would not surprise anybody that modern Greeks are more mixed than the Greeks of the 5th century BC. But to claim "_modern Greeks are no real Greeks, Albanians are the real heirs_" is moronically absurd. 

I give you that modern Greece has little continuity with classical Greece other than the Greek language (classical Greece was polytheistic, for one), but, it has a great deal of continuity with the medieval Byzantine Empire (modern Greek is closer to medieval Greek, but that shouldn't surprise anybody, either?), and notably religion.

You do not understand where modern Greece comes from if you ignore the period between 476 (demise of the western roman empire) and 1453 (conquest of constantinople by the Ottomans).

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

Helleenes or Romei?
A long lasting companion...

That's science!

----------


## Aberdeen

> I don't know, personally I have doubts about the coherence of Greek population. Fallmerayer noticed that too. There is no day when Greeks don't curse Fallmerayer for saying there are no Hellenes in Greece. Most are Albanians and Slavs.
> Rome left Greece in the 5th century, it means 1200 years latter Greeks still felt Romans?


I personally have doubts about the coherence of the Albanian population, since their DNA looks so similar to that of Greeks, and nobody ever heard of Albanians until a few centuries ago. I suspect that "Albania" is just an elaborate practical joke created by some mountain dwelling Greek cattle thieves.

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## Ike

@Aberdeen

Exactly what I'm saying. If he has doubts about homogeneity of Greek ethnicity, and he is convinced that Albanians are at least just as autochtonous on Balkans as Greeks are, he should be also worried as hell for his own ethnic identity. Since he he doesn't seem stressed about that even a single bit, I'm thinking that this thread is just a pure provocation.

----------


## albanopolis

> @Aberdeen
> 
> Exactly what I'm saying. If he has doubts about homogeneity of Greek ethnicity, and he is convinced that Albanians are at least just as autochtonous on Balkans as Greeks are, he should be also worried as hell for his own ethnic identity. Since he he doesn't seem stressed about that even a single bit, I'm thinking that this thread is just a pure provocation.


You seem to not know anything about Fallmerayer! Was he provoking too? Had you known about him you would see that there is no provocation here. In the time of ottoman empire if you asked a Greek who are you?-he would answer in one of two ways; I am Romei or I am a christian. Nobody would tell you I am a Hellene.
If you asked an Albanian he would tell you he was an Arbereshe or since the conversation was in Turkish; I am from Arnautlluk. So always Albanians did not identify themselves neither with the religion nor with Rome. Why Greeks?
As one forumer here noticed the Byzantines had Greek as the language of the Empire. Were the Greeks not able to distinguish among their language and Latin?(of Rome) I don't think so. So, my personal view is that Greece is an hybrid state of people, that has very little to do with Hellenes.
Albania too is not a monolithic Albanian state of Albanians only. We are the majority.
Seen the Greek Government chauvinist stance towards south Albania( Epirus is Greek) me as an Albanian have a legitimate question: Who are you Romei? Southern Albania has no Romei heritage in its veins. So since you are an amalgam of people under a false umbrella of Hellenism can't have territorial claims for other countries. Who knows where the majority of your people came from!
So as you can see its no provocation here, just a legitimate question.

----------


## Yetos

> You seem to not know anything about Fallmerayer! Was he provoking too? Had you known about him you would see that there is no provocation here. In the time of ottoman empire if you asked a Greek who are you?-he would answer in one of two ways; I am Romei or I am a christian. Nobody would tell you I am a Hellene.
> If you asked an Albanian he would tell you he was an Arbereshe or since the conversation was in Turkish; I am from Arnautlluk. So always Albanians did not identify themselves neither with the religion nor with Rome. Why Greeks?
> As one forumer here noticed the Byzantines had Greek as the language of the Empire. Were the Greeks not able to distinguish among their language and Latin?(of Rome) I don't think so. So, my personal view is that Greece is an hybrid state of people, that has very little to do with Hellenes.
> Albania too is not a monolithic Albanian state of Albanians only. We are the majority.
> Seen the Greek Government chauvinist stance towards south Albania( Epirus is Greek) me as an Albanian have a legitimate question: Who are you Romei? Southern Albania has no Romei heritage in its veins. So since you are an amalgam of people under a false umbrella of Hellenism can't have territorial claims for other countries. Who knows where the majority of your people came from!
> So as you can see its no provocation here, just a legitimate question.


Fallmayer is rejected long time ago,
at least the PC4 genetical mark should convince you,

now about Bορειος Ηπειρος, i will not answer, *simply I remind you the testimony of the 2 Irish monks at Crusaders times*

I will just tell this,
most of ancient Greek nobility was slain by Christians,
but not the heart, neither the core, the soul,
by force of Christians and Flavians and Codex about Paganism we were forced to change religion, but we kept our customs inside christian church,
we replace Poseidon with Agio Nikola, St Nicola, and Apollo with St George,
since in East Roman Emperrors Codexes there was identification of word Ελληνας with Pagan, we accepted the term Ρωμιος, just to survive,
but by time we become one with East Romans, and lately we manage to reject the fear of Christianity, and we return to our roots,
nobody said we do not have admixtures, yes we have, I personally described the 5 Slavic tribes, but not in the numbers you are referring,

from just 2 genetical characteristics we have >45% on 1 and >63 % on the other with our fathers, the Greeks of antique, and from what I heard there is also one with >72% although not published yet, so consider it not correct
and these are unigue global,



So yes we change our name as Graikoi, Hellenes, Romioi, Hellenes again

----------


## Ike

> You seem to not know anything about Fallmerayer! Was he provoking too? Had you known about him you would see that there is no provocation here. In the time of ottoman empire if you asked a Greek who are you?-he would answer in one of two ways; I am Romei or I am a christian. Nobody would tell you I am a Hellene.
> If you asked an Albanian he would tell you he was an Arbereshe or since the conversation was in Turkish; I am from Arnautlluk. So always Albanians did not identify themselves neither with the religion nor with Rome. Why Greeks?
> As one forumer here noticed the Byzantines had Greek as the language of the Empire. Were the Greeks not able to distinguish among their language and Latin?(of Rome) I don't think so. So, my personal view is that Greece is an hybrid state of people, that has very little to do with Hellenes.
> Albania too is not a monolithic Albanian state of Albanians only. We are the majority.
> Seen the Greek Government chauvinist stance towards south Albania( Epirus is Greek) me as an Albanian have a legitimate question: Who are you Romei? Southern Albania has no Romei heritage in its veins. So since you are an amalgam of people under a false umbrella of Hellenism can't have territorial claims for other countries. Who knows where the majority of your people came from!
> So as you can see its no provocation here, just a legitimate question.


Empty talk. Whole Albania and Balkans were also Romei:

Romei.jpg


"_Romei" (dal greco: Ῥωμιός / Rōmiós) era il termine usato dagli stessi abitanti dell'Impero Romano d'Oriente per definirsi. Come l'Impero bizantino era Impero romano, così la sua capitale Costantinopoli era la Nuova Roma. I Romei, infine, chiamavano la penisola Balcanica Rumelia, nome di regione che sarà conservato pure dai conquistatori ottomani_."

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romei

----------


## albanopolis

> Fallmayer is rejected long time ago,
> at least the PC4 genetical mark should convince you,
> 
> now about Bορειος Ηπειρος, i will not answer, *simply I remind you the testimony of the 2 Irish monks at Crusaders times*
> 
> I will just tell this,
> most of ancient Greek nobility was slain by Christians,
> but not the heart, neither the core, the soul,
> by force of Christians and Flavians and Codex about Paganism we were forced to change religion, but we kept our customs inside christian church,
> ...


Fallmerayer is rejected by Greek government not the academics. He was an eyewitness of 19 century Greece and his accounts can not be dismissed because Greeks don't like it.
Rome was in Albania too, Christianity was imposed upon Albanians, Roman amphitheaters were erected but nothing Romei happened.
I know you guys have many reasons to oppose the Romei's arguments but my main goal of this thread is to show you that we (Albanians) know who you are. Stop beating your chest with Hellenes because some of you have nothing to do with it. Get to senses and recognize the new Albanian republic of Macedonia because it was not Greek. No provocations, just straight talk.

----------


## Ike

> Get to senses *and recognize the new Albanian republic* of Macedonia because it was not Greek. No provocations, just straight talk.


Yep, it was just a matter of time :)

----------


## Yetos

> Fallmerayer is rejected by Greek government not the academics. He was an eyewitness of 19 century Greece and his accounts can not be dismissed because Greeks don't like it.
> Rome was in Albania too, Christianity was imposed upon Albanians, Roman amphitheaters were erected but nothing Romei happened.
> I know you guys have many reasons to oppose the Romei's arguments but my main goal of this thread is to show you that we (Albanians) know who you are. Stop beating your chest with Hellenes because some of you have nothing to do with it. Get to senses and recognize the new Albanian republic of Macedonia because it was not Greek. No provocations, just straight talk.



Fallmayer is used only by Albanian and Slav-Makedonian extra-nationalists,
you stick on the glue, and you do not see what they show you,

you better read again what the 2 Irish monks have written,
Durres was a Greek city at 1200 AD, 
one day you must recognise that majority of Albanians are Greeks, Venicians, Normands Anju Slav and Aromani,

and as you said, we Greeks know it,. no provocations, just straight talk. to use your words,
your imams can not change history.

get your senses and recognise the Aytochthonos and archegonos republic of North Epiros

----------


## albanopolis

> Fallmayer is used only by Albanian and Slav-Makedonian extra-nationalists,
> you stick on the glue, and you do not see what they show you,
> 
> you better read again what the 2 Irish monks have written,
> Durres was a Greek city at 1200 AD, 
> one day you must recognise that majority of Albanians are Greeks, Venicians, Normands Anju Slav and Aromani,
> 
> and as you said, we Greeks know it,. no provocations, just straight talk. to use your words,
> your imams can not change history.
> ...


Now you got me. I have no arguments to fight. Irish monks have said Durres was Greek in 1200. :Disappointed: 
Had they been German monks one could take them in consideration but Irish?
Everyone knows they drink why don't you? Fallmerayer was not a drunk dumb Irish! He was an Austrian member of Academy of science, a person armed with Knowledge. And he did not see many Greeks in Greece.
As for Epirus ( South) we have a plan! You will here about it when time is ripe! :Laughing:

----------


## Yetos

> Now you got me. I have no arguments to fight. Irish monks have said Durres was Greek in 1200.
> Had they been German monks one could take them in consideration but Irish?
> Everyone knows they drink why don't you? Fallmerayer was not a drunk dumb Irish! He was an Austrian member of Academy of science, a person armed with Knowledge. And he did not see many Greeks in Greece.
> As for Epirus ( South) we have a plan! You will here about it when time is ripe!



Are you saying that Irish Catholic Monks were alcoholic?



”_Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus_” 1322AD

----------


## albanopolis

> Are you saying that Irish Catholic Monks were alcoholic?
> 
> 
> 
> ”_Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus_” 1322AD



Not only alcoholics! Rapists too!

----------


## Yetos

> Not only alcoholics! Rapists too!


i quess you do not drink alcohol, like Arabs, right?

----------


## albanopolis

> i quess you do not drink alcohol, like Arabs, right?


Let me explain you why those Irish monks are dumb! Its 1200 ad. Byzantines are at their height as an empire. Lingua franca of the empire was Romei language. So to have a conversation with a foreigner one had to speak Romei. But that did not mean Romei was their mother toungue. Albanians living in a multiethnic empire new the language of their neighbors, and of course Romey as their immediate neighbors.Albanians could easily tell that those pale Irish, that looked like they had never seen the sun, were foreigners and they talked to them in Romei. Those monks being dumb thought the language of the people was Romei.

----------


## Gorgonzola

In 1274 Charles Anjou wrote that Durres had been besieged by the Albanians and the Greeks (albanenses et greci) by these appellations he meant the Catholic and Orthodox Albanians.
In the beginning of the XIV century appellation Arbanite, Albanite referred only to the catholic Albanians. (Ref: V. Tapkova-Zaimova, L’idee byzantine de l’unite du monde et l’Etat Bulgare, in “Resumes des Communications Ier CongresInt. Et. Du S.E. Europeen”, Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
Basically the name greeks in that situation has no function other than orthodox albanians, because that's how they were called at the period.Because it was a period that the religion of the albanians had changed, the names for an albanian weren't the same.Religion was the most important thing in order to identify a person at the time.
Let's not forget that the first dictionary that was made about albanian was the "latin-epirotum" dictionary, epirote being the albanian language.

----------


## Dianatomia

> In 1274 Charles Anjou wrote that Durres had been besieged by the Albanians and the Greeks (albanenses et greci) by these appellations he meant the Catholic and Orthodox Albanians.
> In the beginning of the XIV century appellation Arbanite, Albanite referred only to the catholic Albanians. (Ref: V. Tapkova-Zaimova, L’idee byzantine de l’unite du monde et l’Etat Bulgare, in “Resumes des Communications Ier CongresInt. Et. Du S.E. Europeen”, Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
> Basically the name greeks in that situation has no function other than orthodox albanians, because that's how they were called at the period.Because it was a period that the religion of the albanians had changed, the names for an albanian weren't the same.Religion was the most important thing in order to identify a person at the time.
> Let's not forget that the first dictionary that was made about albanian was the "latin-epirotum" dictionary, epirote being the albanian language.


It is confirmed once again in 1332 when two Irish monks who visited Albania on their way to Jerusalem that Durrës was “inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians”. 

The Latins were the Vlachs and they were also Orthodox like the Greeks, so they did not make a religious distinction. The Albanians are also referred separately in the quote. 

As for the dictionary. It was published in Rome, where they traditionally referred to the whole of Albania as Epirus. Epirus Nova in Roman times.

----------


## Gorgonzola

> It is confirmed once again in 1332 when two Irish monks who visited Albania on their way to Jerusalem that Durrës was “inhabited by Latins, Greeks, perfidious Jews and barbaric Albanians”. 
> 
> The Latins were the Vlachs and they were also Orthodox like the Greeks, so they did not make a religious distinction. The Albanians are also referred separately in the quote. 
> 
> As for the dictionary. It was published in Rome, where they traditionally referred to the whole of Albania as Epirus. Epirus Nova in Roman times.


You can't know who the latins were, they might the people who were ruling Kingdom of Albania at the time, Anjus.In 1274 they were no Latins there.
There is no historic proof of the existence of a Greek speaking community in the Durres region.I made a search and at the same period the name greek was also used for the orthodox albanians,for which i brought a reference.Since they were religiously Orthodox, they were still not lumped under the same identity as the Catholic Albanians.The albanians were also called epirotes several times by the byzantine writers.
In the medieval there was not a standart name for the albanians depending mostly by religion.

----------


## Yetos

*”Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus”*

can someone explain that? i do not know Latin

----------


## Yetos

> You can't know who the latins were, they might the people who were ruling Kingdom of Albania at the time, Anjus.In 1274 they were no Latins there.
> There is no historic proof of the existence of a Greek speaking community in the Durres region.I made a search and at the same period the name greek was also used for the orthodox albanians,for which i brought a reference.Since they were religiously Orthodox, they were still not lumped under the same identity as the Catholic Albanians.The albanians were also called epirotes several times by the byzantine writers.
> In the medieval there was not a standart name for the albanians depending mostly by religion.



i do not see about religion,
*the irish monks speak about language*

----------


## Dianatomia

> You can't know who the latins were, they might the people who were ruling Kingdom of Albania at the time, Anjus.In 1274 they were no Latins there.
> There is no historic proof of the existence of a Greek speaking community in the Durres region.I made a search and at the same period the name greek was also used for the orthodox albanians,for which i brought a reference.Since they were religiously Orthodox, they were still not lumped under the same identity as the Catholic Albanians.The albanians were also called epirotes several times by the byzantine writers.
> In the medieval there was not a standart name for the albanians depending mostly by religion.


I think we are walking around the bush here. Durres, previously Epidamnos, was founded by Greeks and there was also a Greek presence there until the late Middle ages. 

The Byzantine Greeks never referred to other Orthodox non-Greek speaking peoples as Greek/Romios. Could you offer a source where it says that Albanian speakers were referred to as Greeks?

----------


## Gorgonzola

> i do not see about religion,
> *the irish monks speak about language*


*I don't see where they mentioned language.*




> I think we are walking around the bush here. Durres, previously Epidamnos, was founded by Greeks and there was also a Greek presence there until the late Middle ages.


There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages, but on the other side we have alot of albanian principalities in the entire area of epirus, thats why the second name for the albanians at the time became Epirotes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities




> The Byzantine Greeks never referred to other Orthodox non-Greek speaking peoples as Greek/Romios. Could you offer a source where it says that Albanian speakers were referred to as Greeks?


Yes of course. (Ch. Kohler, Recueil des historiens des Croiades, Paris 1906, vol. II, p. 487.)
(V. Tapkova-Zaimova, Lâ idee byzantine de lâ unite du monde et lâ Etat Bulgare,Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
(K.Fasheri Etnogjeneza e popullit shqiptar)
(The History of Greece: From Its Conquest by the Crusaders to Its Conquest by the Turks, and of the Empire of Trebizond: 1204-1461-George Finlay)

In the last book it also shows the ones who used the name illyrians for the albanians in the middle ages (Mazaris ;George Pachymeres ;Nicephorus Gregoras.etc) but also macedonians (Chalcocondylas).
You se that the name was not really important as even though albanoi,albanite was standart there were used other names by different authors.

----------


## Yetos

> *I don't see where they mentioned language.*


*”Inhabitatur enim Latinis, Grecis, Judeis perfidis, et barbaris Albanensibus”

correct GREEKS lived in Dyrrachion
not only speak but live,






 Originally Posted by Gorgonzola


 

There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages,




1322 AD GREEK LIVED IN DYRRACHIUM AND WERE SECOND MOST POPPULAR COMMUNITY AFTER AROMANI or ITALIANS (LATINS)

*except f you believe that 1322 is not middle ages,

1 century before kastrioti
and after kastrioti no Greek there, why?
ask the sons of Vallavan Pasha*.

*

----------


## Dianatomia

> There is no evidence of greeks living in Durres in the middle ages, but on the other side we have alot of albanian principalities in the entire area of epirus, thats why the second name for the albanians at the time became Epirotes.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities
> 
> 
> 
> Yes of course. (Ch. Kohler, Recueil des historiens des Croiades, Paris 1906, vol. II, p. 487.)
> (V. Tapkova-Zaimova, Lâ idee byzantine de lâ unite du monde et lâ Etat Bulgare,Sofia 1966, p. 228.)
> (K.Fasheri Etnogjeneza e popullit shqiptar)
> (The History of Greece: From Its Conquest by the Crusaders to Its Conquest by the Turks, and of the Empire of Trebizond: 1204-1461-George Finlay)
> ...


There is a full view of the first book online here: http://books.google.nl/books?id=WUAa...ol%202&f=false 

I can't seem to find anything on Albanian speakers being referred to as Greeks. Perhaps you can be more specific. 

On a side note, a good a reference on the topic is the Byzantine Greek historian Michael Attaleiates. He was the first historian (1043) to have ever referred to Albanians (albanoi). The context is interesting. According to him Arbanitai were the subjects of the Duke of Dyrrachium which was under control by the Byzantine Greeks. It is clear there was at least a Greek oligarchy in Durres in the late middle ages.

----------


## Gorgonzola

> *
> 1322 AD GREEK LIVED IN DYRRACHIUM AND WERE SECOND MOST POPPULAR COMMUNITY AFTER AROMANI or ITALIANS (LATINS)
> 
> *except f you believe that 1322 is not middle ages,
> 
> 1 century before kastrioti
> and after kastrioti no Greek there, why?
> ask the sons of Vallavan Pasha*.
> 
> *


I don't need to ask noone, *everything* that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.

----------


## Dianatomia

> I don't need to ask noone, *everything* that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
> The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.


The issue at hand here is Durres and whether there were Greeks living there as the quotes of the monks indicate. In medieval times there were many very short lived principalities in the central Balkans. In general terms though the despotate of Epirus where most of Albania was part of was in Byzantine Greek hands. But also Serbs and Italians managed to rule it for a while, after it was conquered by the Turks.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't need to ask noone, *everything* that i wrote here is referenced from the books i gave.Durres has always been inhabited by the albanians, stop making up statistics.
> The albanians at the time even had principalities in the entire area of Epirus.


When before Vallavan pasha or after?

----------


## trdbr1234

To add one more thing, Albanian speakers of Greece were called Greeks before 1500, and speakers of Kione were called Romei. How the powers that be can just change history!

----------


## Sakattack

> To add one more thing, Albanian speakers of Greece were called Greeks before 1500, and speakers of Kione were called Romei. How the powers that be can just change history!



Not true. 

Be aware that at that period of time (Ottoman Rule) the inhabitants of Greece did not distinguish from each other ethnically, but in terms of religion - in most cases - and in terms of class. So we have Christians and Muslims, peasants and lords (with many names). 

Linguistically, we have 3 languages: greek (for the majority), turkish (for the rulers/archons and their families - even though that many were speaking greek) and arvanite for the arvanite communities. People that had contacts for professional or other reasons with all of them, usually were able to use all the languages. Was not uncommon. Only if they were about to refer to each other by this quality (not the issue in most cases), they used the terms Romioi (Ρωμιοί), Arvanites (Αρβανίτες) and Turks (Τούρκοι). But was not really common. 

All of the peasants (greek speaking, arvanite speaking and even turkish speaking) were usually called with the derogatory adj rayas (ραγιάς). 

Later on, after the Greek enlightenment, the word Hellene (Έλληνας) started to get in use and was referring to all of the non Muslim population. That of course include the Arvanites, but not the Muslim Arvanites, who were called Turkalbanians (Τουρκαλβανοί).

----------


## trdbr1234

> Not true. 
> 
> Be aware that at that period of time (Ottoman Rule) the inhabitants of Greece did not distinguish from each other ethnically, but in terms of religion - in most cases - and in terms of class. So we have Christians and Muslims, peasants and lords (with many names). 
> 
> Linguistically, we have 3 languages: greek (for the majority), turkish (for the rulers/archons and their families - even though that many were speaking greek) and arvanite for the arvanite communities. People that had contacts for professional or other reasons with all of them, usually were able to use all the languages. Was not uncommon. Only if they were about to refer to each other by this quality (not the issue in most cases), they used the terms Romioi (Ρωμιοί), Arvanites (Αρβανίτες) and Turks (Τούρκοι). But was not really common. 
> 
> All of the peasants (greek speaking, arvanite speaking and even turkish speaking) were usually called with the derogatory adj rayas (ραγιάς). 
> 
> Later on, after the Greek enlightenment, the word Hellene (Έλληνας) started to get in use and was referring to all of the non Muslim population. That of course include the Arvanites, but not the Muslim Arvanites, who were called Turkalbanians (Τουρκαλβανοί).


 Just to be correct, by Greek speaking you mean Kione speaking. Before 1800, the Kione have historically been known as Romei. This is un-disputable! However, Albanians were also known as Greeks, Epirotans, Macedonians, Albanians, and such. All these names were interchangeably used to describe Albanian speakers. The Serbian Empire was a union of Serbs and Greeks to counter Bulgarian and Byzantine influences. (remember the Kione were still known as Romei here and were heirs of the Byzantines). It is also known that Albanians were one of the most powerful people in this region at the time supplying European militaries as well as local rulers with men. In addition, Albanian refugees in Italy and abroad were known as Greeks! Their settlements were known as Greek settlements! Theres also some studies being done now that are studying some of the early Ottoman archives. Theyre indicating that not only traditional Arvanite settlements but the entirety of Peloponnese was Albanian speaking before and just after Ottoman conquest.

----------


## Sakattack

> Just to be correct, by Greek speaking you mean Kione speaking.


No, i mean Modern Greek. Not even Medieval Greek, which was spoken some centuries prior to that, up to 1500s. 

Koine Greek, which you falsely mentioned, was their predecessor and was spoken till circa 300AD. 





> Before 1800, the Kione have historically been known as Romei. This is un-disputable!


No. Was either Koine Greek, either Greek. It's speakers were called Romii (Ρωμιοί) at some periods, which was the synonym of Greek (Γραικός). The term Hellene (Έλληνας), as I told you, was not in use after 400AD and was only referring to non Christian Greeks prior to that and after the raise of Christianity. This was the reason that was abandoned actually... 





> However, Albanians were also known as Greeks, Epirotans, Macedonians, Albanians, and such. All these names were interchangeably used to describe Albanian speakers.


No. Absolutely not, sorry. Check your sources and my previous post. 





> The Serbian Empire was a union of Serbs and Greeks to counter Bulgarian and Byzantine influences. (remember the Kione were still known as Romei here and were heirs of the Byzantines). It is also known that Albanians were one of the most powerful people in this region at the time supplying European militaries as well as local rulers with men. In addition, Albanian refugees in Italy and abroad were known as Greeks! Their settlements were known as Greek settlements! Theres also some studies being done now that are studying some of the early Ottoman archives. Theyre indicating that not only traditional Arvanite settlements but the entirety of Peloponnese was Albanian speaking before and just after Ottoman conquest.


???

Either complete lack of historical knowledge, or just naive propaganda? In any case, nonsense. 

Please check your sources.

----------


## LABERIA

(*) The common Greek language in the last quarter of the 20th century was neither a restored version of the tongue of the popular heroes of the Greek revolution, nor the demotic of the diaspora intellectuals. It was passed through the filter of the Katharevousa, just as national ideology passed through the filter of the "Hellenization" process. In the Greek language through the 16 to the 18th centuries the word "Hellenic" meant the language of ancient Greece. In Greek today, the word "Hellenic" means modern Greece and one needs to add the adjective "ancient" to refer to the language of the classical era. In the academic programs in the English speaking world, though, "Greek" refers to the classical language programs. During the 19th and 20th centuries, modern Greece was "Hellenized" and "Hellenism" acquired a modern Greek version. (p. 229) The tourist who travels today in Greece recognizes in the regions visited the names of places encountered in ancient Greek literature, mythology and history. But the visitor does not know that this map of ancient Greece has been constantly redesigned over the last 170 years, that is, since the beginning of the Greek state. (p. 230)

The modification of the place names began just after the constitution of the Greek state in the early 1830's, and went hand in hand with the reorganization of the administration of the country and its divisions into prefectures, municipalities and parishes. The people attempting the renaming of spaces were conscious of the ideological importance of this action. The renaming of space was not achieved in a single attempt but was a long process that went on for decades. It took place each time a new region was integrated into the Greek state. This was the integration of Thessaly (1881), of Macedonia (1913), and of Thrace (1920). Every time they carried out a reform of the local administration -- until as recently as 1998, when many municipalities and communities were reunited with the so-called Kapodistrian plan "new" Greek classical names, previously unknown to the local inhabitants, made their appearance. Which were the toponyms that had to disappear? According to the Greek authorities, they were the toponyms that were "foreign or did not sound good", in other words those that were in "bad Greek". (pp. 230-231)

The middle of the 19th century was the stage of a conflict between the Greek intelligentsia and Fallmerayer, who maintained that, in the middle ages, Greece was inhabited by Slavs and Albanian peoples. As a consequence, Greek intellectuals were prompt to erase all the Slavic and Albanian names which could support the rival arguments. In 1909 the government-appointed commission on toponyms reported that one village in three in Greece (30% of the total) should have its name changed (of the 5,096 Greek villages 1,500 were considered as "speaking a barbaric language"). (pp. 231-232) After the Balkan wars (1912-1913), new reasons were added to the previous ones. Names ought be changed so as not to "give rise to damaging ethnological implications to the Greek nation, of a sort which could be used against us by our enemies". The new enemy was the revisionism of the northern borders acquired after the Balkan wars, through the use of minority issues. (p. 232)

(Hellenisms: Culture, Identity, and Ethnicity from Antiquity to Modernity, Edited by Katerina Zacharia)

----------


## Sakattack

@Laberia

Nothing against what you wrote. It is well know. 

But has nothing to do with that your compatriot stated above. Pure nonsense with 0 historical accuracy. 

I am not willing to take part in a blind nationalistic conv, with biased arguments and agendas. A lot of topics is full of that, enough :)

PS: Fallmerayer's antigreek opinions as well as his motives, are also well known.

----------


## LABERIA

> @Laberia
> 
> Nothing against what you wrote. It is well know. 
> 
> But has nothing to do with that your compatriot stated above. Pure nonsense with 0 historical accuracy. 
> 
> I am not willing to take part in a blind nationalistic conv, with biased arguments and agendas. A lot of topics is full of that, enough :)
> 
> PS: Fallmerayer's antigreek opinions as well as his motives, are also well known.


Hahahahahaha. Fallmerayer anti-greek? Why you think so?

----------


## Sakattack

Search, read and find out :)

Sent from my Robin

----------


## LABERIA

> Search, read and find out :)
> 
> Sent from my Robin


Ah, so you personally, don`t have any idea?

----------


## Sakattack

I was pretty clear. Please stop trying to drag me into an "e-fight", I won't bite. 

Have a nice evening. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## trdbr1234

> No, i mean Modern Greek. Not even Medievel Greek, which was spoken some centuries prior to that, up to 1500s. Kione Greek, which you falsely mentioned, was their predecessor and was spoken till circa 300AD.


I dont understand what you're disagreeing on really. What and who is Greek here is being put into question. And you weren't "Greek" before 1800's, nor was your language called Greek in Medieval times. It is hypothesized that the language you speak stemmed from Kione. That's a more fitting tittle for your language and would avoid confusion in this discussion. 







> No. Was either Koine Greek, either Greek. It's speakers were called Romii (Ρωμιοί) at some periods, which was the synonym of Greek (Γραικός). The term Hellene (Έλληνας), as I told you, was not in use after 400AD and was only referring to non Christian Greeks prior to that and after the raise of Christianity. This was the reason that was abandoned actually...


 Synonymy is not saying anything. All you're saying is that you want it to be synonymous. In reality, you were Romei! And the rest is more assumptions. Ridiculous how the history of modern Greece is built on these assumptions, isn't it?






> No. Absolutely not, sorry. Check your sources and my previous post.


Skenderbeu was knows as prince of the Macedonians, Epirotans, and Albanians. In addition, he claimed decent from Pirro and Aleksander.

And lets not forget, the Kione were still called Romei here!








> ???
> 
> Either complete lack of historical knowledge, or just naive propaganda? In any case, nonsense. 
> 
> Please check your sources.


What exactly is nonsense? 

Serbian Empire claimed to be rulers of Serbians and Greeks. I fail to see how the Romei in Byzantine can be considered Greek when you were Romei.

Dude, check the names of the towns in Italy where Arberesh live. Aside the ones that were recently changed to signify Albanian decent for political reasons, they can all be translated to either Greek village or Arberesh village. Yet, they all spoke Albanian! Not only that, but the majority of them decent from the region of Poloponese, which they refer to Morea!


The only nonsense here is how the Kione suddenly became "Greek" post 1800's. It's mind boggling really.

----------


## Sakattack

> I dont understand what you're disagreeing on really. What and who is Greek here is being put into question. And you weren't "Greek" before 1800's, nor was your language called Greek in Medieval times. It is hypothesized that the language you speak stemmed from Kione. That's a more fitting tittle for your language and would avoid confusion in this discussion. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synonymy is not saying anything. All you're saying is that you want it to be synonymous. In reality, you were Romei! And the rest is more assumptions. Ridiculous how the history of modern Greece is built on these assumptions, isn't it?
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed it's boring. 

In your case I would start ASAP some history lessons and maybe some English ones because you don't seem to understand. For instance, I posted the links of Koine Greek, Medieval Greek and Modern Greek from Wikipedia, just to read what are you talking about, and you just ignored it. You came back again with your own definitions  :Laughing:  

Honestly, it's really rare to see SO MANY mistakes in just two posts (your previous one is even worse). I am not your teacher, nor your father to try to educate you and I am not gonna start a "discussion" on this, arguing about the obvious, because your level is really low. It's even worse, though, that you don't seem to realise it. 

Please stop embarrassing your self, it's kinda busy forum. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## trdbr1234

> Indeed it's boring. 
> 
> In your case I would start ASAP some history lessons and maybe some English ones because you don't seem to understand. For instance, I posted the links of Koine Greek, Medieval Greek and Modern Greek from Wikipedia, just to read what are you talking about, and you just ignored it. You came back again with your own definitions  
> 
> Honestly, it's really rare to see SO MANY mistakes in just two posts (your previous one is even worse). I am not your teacher, nor your father to try to educate you and I am not gonna start a "discussion" on this, arguing about the obvious, because your level is really low. It's even worse, though, that you don't seem to realise it. 
> 
> Please stop embarrassing your self, it's kinda busy forum. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


 Aside from trying to offend my intelligence, do you have anything to add to this discussion? 

If not, I hope some Arvanita in Greece read these posts and see what they've done to them and their country. Aristidh Kola is a good read every Arvanita should have in their homes. Have a good day!

----------


## Sakattack

> Aside from trying to offend my intelligence, do you have anything to add to this discussion? 
> 
> If not, I hope some Arvanita in Greece read these posts and see what they've done to them and their country. Aristidh Kola is a good read every Arvanita should have in their homes. Have a good day!


The attempt to spread false info and propaganda, is bad.
The attempt to spread SUCH inaccurate info and to make SO naive propaganda, is just ridiculous. 

Have nothing personal against you or against Albanians, my brother's wife is Albanian and my nephews are halfAlbanian. I have some Albanian friends too. 

Better end this discussion now, though, doesn't go any further. And a friendly advices: read some stuff. :) 

Have a nice evening. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## LABERIA

Well, this kind of tactic is called, hit and run.

----------


## Sakattack

Unlike you, I have no tactic. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## trdbr1234

> Unlike you, I have no tactic. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


 You obviously have no idea of what you're talking about or intent on making any contribution to this thread. In either case, the facts still stand.

Have a good day!

----------


## LABERIA

> Unlike you, I have no tactic. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


I have to remember you that i didn't quoted you. Right? You decided to quote me and later you changed mind. Ok, there is no problem, but you are doing the same thing with the other member. In this case, it's evident that this is a tactic.

----------


## Sakattack

Not willing to participate to your little, narrow-minded and actually ludicrous nationalistic games. 

Let's agree that the ancient Greek were in fact Albanians and end this funny conv. 

Please. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## LABERIA

> Not willing to participate to your little, narrow-minded and actually ludicrous nationalistic games. 
> 
> Let's agree that the ancient Greek were in fact Albanians and end this funny conv. 
> 
> Please. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


Exactly i was talking about this. You provoke the others and later you run away from the discussion. This is what i consider a tactic. 
For the rest of the post, i don't intend to wast my time with lunatic theories or persons. I don't know where you have read this in my posts.

----------


## trdbr1234

> Not willing to participate to your little, narrow-minded and actually ludicrous nationalistic games. 
> 
> Let's agree that the ancient Greek were in fact Albanians and end this funny conv. 
> 
> Please. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


There is precedence here. The Croatian "Illyrian" movement. There is also FYROM "Macedonian" movement that is ongoing. The Balkan is plagued by these claims. The modern state of Greece is another example. Your homes are in Turkey and Instabul. Not in Greece!

----------


## Sakattack

> There is precedence here. The Croatian "Illyrian" movement. There is also FYROM "Macedonian" movement that is ongoing. The Balkan is plagued by these claims. The modern state of Greece is another example. Your homes are in Turkey and Instabul. Not in Greece!


Finally somebody shouted these inconvenient truths out loud! 

Enough with this "political correctness", enough with all these hypocrites who since the time of Homer are spreading their heavily biased agenda!

Enough with all those Philhellenes - who of course had been the victims of these huge propaganda by the fakeGreeks - who took the wrong side, admired, studied, followed and most recently helped the wrong people to continue spreading their lies around the world. 

There are no Greeks, there is no Greece, there is no Greek language! 

Albania it is. May the - Albanian Olympian - Gods be with you for uncovering this evil conspiracy. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## Yetos

> There is precedence here. The Croatian "Illyrian" movement. There is also FYROM "Macedonian" movement that is ongoing. The Balkan is plagued by these claims. The modern state of Greece is another example. Your homes are in Turkey and Instabul. Not in Greece!


ha?
Yes Greeks are Turks who came from Altaic mountains, 
Albanian are the only autochthones in Greece before even Myceneans,
There is no Greek language

God blees you for opening our eyes,

*OUPS
*did I wrote* AUTOCHTHONES?*  :Laughing:  
dam these Greek words are killing me,  :Wallbash:

----------


## MOESAN

> e, Albanians know very well our national borders. I am about to quote you a very famous author, *George Finlay* regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on History of the Greek Revolution.
> 
> 
> The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call themselves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occupied the regions they now inhabit before the days of Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedonians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets with his Macedonian officers. 
> 
> Nearly the same boundary separates the Hellenic from the non-Hellenic population at the present day as in ancient times. Thucydides calls the Amphilochians who dwelt at the head of the Gulf of Arta barbarians. Strabo says that one race inhabited the whole country, from the Acroceraunian Mountains to the borders of Thessaly and to the plain of Pelagonia, under the name of Epirots or Macedonians, for both spoke the same language.
>  The whole of Albania, from the Gulf of Arta to the Lake of Skodra, is divided into innumerable lateral valleys by rugged mountains, which render the communications so difficult as to confine trade to a few lines of transport.
> 
> This is called *AUTOCTHONOUS.*


the more reliable studies about albanian language put its origin among Moesian/Dacian tribes removed at first time by other IE people towards Dardani places (North Macedonia) at some time of History, based on phonetic and structure parts of language and also lack of proper maritime words - sure History is moving on and past is not always the same as present or future! Frontiers moved too - But some things seem showing first Albanians were not "autochtonous" on the Adriatic shores in antiquity - What is not a reason to put fire and war everywhere, and to desespeately try to recover the frontiers like they were supposed to be in 1500 AC, 1000 AC , 1500 BC or during the paleolithic (I doubt there were frontiers then but?) ?

----------


## LABERIA

> the more reliable studies about albanian language put its origin among Moesian/Dacian tribes removed at first time by other IE people towards Dardani places (North Macedonia) at some time of History, based on phonetic and structure parts of language and also lack of proper maritime words - sure History is moving on and past is not always the same as present or future! Frontiers moved too - But some things seem showing first Albanians were not "autochtonous" on the Adriatic shores in antiquity - What is not a reason to put fire and war everywhere, and to desespeately try to recover the frontiers like they were supposed to be in 1500 AC, 1000 AC , 1500 BC or during the paleolithic (I doubt there were frontiers then but?) ?


You decided to contradict the conclusions of an important scholar, using at the same post expressions of the type: _reliable studies_ and _at some point of History._ 
Excuse me but this is not serious. 
There is a thread where you can elaborate this reliable studies:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...istic-approach
Please, don't feed the troolls here, don't put gas in the fire.

----------


## trdbr1234

> Finally somebody shouted these inconvenient truths out loud! 
> 
> Enough with this "political correctness", enough with all these hypocrites who since the time of Homer are spreading their heavily biased agenda!
> 
> Enough with all those Philhellenes - who of course had been the victims of these huge propaganda by the fakeGreeks - who took the wrong side, admired, studied, followed and most recently helped the wrong people to continue spreading their lies around the world. 
> 
> There are no Greeks, there is no Greece, there is no Greek language! 
> 
> Albania it is. May the - Albanian Olympian - Gods be with you for uncovering this evil conspiracy. 
> ...


I hope you understand how low you've stooped. If not disrespectful to me, other Albanians, or your own intellectual thirst, it is at least disrespectful to your Arvanite compatriots. 

I never claimed any history beyond the late middle ages. 

I am merely pointing out a fact that Albanian speakers in Greece were considered Greek while during the same time the Kione speakers were considered Romei. This needs some explanation, don't you think?

Good day!

----------


## Sakattack

> I am merely pointing out a fact that Albanian speakers in Greece were considered Greek while during the same time the Kione speakers were considered Romei. This needs some explanation, don't you think?
> 
> Good day!


Which is wrong and I extensively explained in previous posts, which you decided not to read. 

I even pasted wiki links with what the definitions of the language names you wrongly use, and you also ingored them.

Last effort to this thread (honestly, last): 

During Medieval Times, some Arvanite communities were living in Greece. Unlike today, there was not a national/ethnical division between the citizens of the Ottoman empire, but only through religion and class. Three languages were spoken at that time: Greek (Medieval/Modern Greek and NOT Koine Greek, which is... spoken till 400AD), Arvanite (at their communities) and Turkish (official language but due to the lack of schools etc only the traders, the Lords and the... Turks were their speakers). 

Many people were also multilingual. 

People, used to identify:

Firstly as peasant (rayas) or Lord secondly as Christian or Muslim and lastly as Romios (Greek speaker), Arvanite (Albanian speaker) or Turk (Turkish speaker). Greek speakers (Romioi) were the vast majority. 

Before the Revolution (1821) and with the Greek Enlightenment, the term Hellene (word that we use today for ourselves, Έλληνας, eventhough almost everyone else still uses the previous term, Greek (Γραικός)), started to reappear (it is the term that the ancient Greeks used, which use was banned from the Byzantines because in the end meant only the Pagans/Non Christians). 

Gradually and alongside with the fighting spirit, the idea of the Revolution, the value of Freedom etc, the name Hellene was spread and people started to identify themselves with this term: this time all the nonMuslims and nonTurks, which means that the Arvanite speaking minorities started to identify ALSO with this term. During the Revolution, many Arvanite speakers standed out. Gave their blood and fought bravely for Hellas. 

When Greece became a state again, was named Kingdom of Hellas and it's citizens were Hellenes. 

Via education the Greek language was the language that the ex-arvanite speakers started to study and of course speak. Now they are indistinguishable.

Hope I've been helpful. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## Yetos

I will keep calm,

and just ask 2 questions.

WHY THE BIGGEST MAJORITY NORTH OF MODERN ALBANIA ARE CALLED *REMENII??*?
even the Albanian ultra-nationalist Velliu which has a Slavic name (Velles = mountain) comes from these people.
*and What does Remenii means if not Romenii?
*
and this,
the first Arberesh who migrated tp Maniaki and Korone after the revolt 
and the later who came after invitation of Ducchy of Athens are before 1240 AD, means 8 centuries,
the same time Greeks moved to South Italy like Aspromonte,
and are called Grecani,
so I ask you something simple,
Why today Grecanii are considered as Italians by everybody, but from Greek origin,
and have the right to claim Italian nationality and citizenship, although from Greek origin,
*AND NOT ARBANITES? 

*to expand more the Question,
*Today the Arbereshides of Hora (Greek word) what are they? after 5 centuries in Greece and 4 centuries at Sicellia?
*ALBANIANS?
GREEKS?
ITALIANS?

*why don't you go and claim land from Italy? since Arberesh live 4 and 1/2 centuries there?*

Spachiou is a Ottoman's word-officer, understand that, Sipahi Σπαχης 

now choose, 
either with Kastrioti?
either with Vallavan Pasha.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipahi

----------


## LABERIA

> I will keep calm,
> 
> and just ask this,
> 
> WHY THE BIGGEST MAJORITY NORTH OF MODERN ALBANIA ARE CALLED *REMENII??*?


And where you have read this?

----------


## LABERIA

Yetos, when you finish with editing your post, tell us, so you can have your answers.

----------


## LABERIA

> I will keep calm,
> 
> and just ask 2 questions.
> 
> WHY THE BIGGEST MAJORITY NORTH OF MODERN ALBANIA ARE CALLED *REMENII??*?


Always with your calm, can you explain this? Because nobody has an answer.



> even the Albanian ultra-nationalist Velliu which has a Slavic name (Velles = mountain) comes from 
> these people.


There are not Albanians with name or surname Velliu. There are Albanians with name and surname Veliu, but this is not an slavic name, it`s a muslim name.



> *and What does Remenii* *means if not Romenii?*


Can you explain what are Remenii and Romenii?
and this,



> the first Arberesh who migrated tp Maniaki and Korone after the revolt 
> and the later who came after invitation of Ducchy of Athens are before 1240 AD, means 8 centuries,


Please elaborate better this because i don`t understand. Sometimes i have difficulty with your style.



> the same time Greeks moved to South Italy like Aspromonte,
> and are called Grecani,
> so I ask you something simple,
> Why today Grecanii are considered as Italians by everybody, but from Greek origin,
> and have the right to claim Italian nationality and citizenship, although from Greek origin,
> *AND NOT ARBANITES? 
> *


Arvanites are greek citizens of Albanian origine.



> to expand more the Question,
> *Today the Arbereshides of Hora (Greek word) what are they? after 5 centuries in Greece and 4 centuries at Sicellia?
> *ALBANIANS?
> GREEKS?
> ITALIANS?


Arberesh and not *Arbereshides,* are Italian citizens of Albanian origine.



> *why don't you go and claim land from Italy? since Arberesh live 4 and 1/2 centuries there?*


Why we have to ask land from Italians? And we don`t claim any piece of land in greece inhabitated by this Arvanites. Again i don`t understand your point.




> Spachiou is a Ottoman's word-officer, understand that, Sipahi Σπαχης


Again, what`s your point here? What have to do this Sipahi with this thread or with this page of this thread?




> now choose, 
> either with Kastrioti?
> either with Vallavan Pasha.


Who is/was this Vallavan Pasha?



> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipahi


Again with this Sipahi? Do you have any relation with this people?

Yetos, have a look here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...sus#post484177
Do you see what happened to the ancient greeks?
Do you know who was N.G.L.Hammond? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._G._L._Hammond
One of his books was:
_Migrations and invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas_ (1976)
From the chapter about the Ethnogenesis of the Albanians, whe the author describe the invasion of Greece from Albanians:
...and it sent streams of migrants into most parts of the Greek peninsula and some of the Aegean islands. To the settled peoples they were a terror. “Deus misit hanc pestem," wrote the author of the Gesta Dei per Francos 2.293. They came, like a plague of locusts, in huge numbers ("in tanta quantitate numerosa") and in 1325 they ravaged and destroyed everything in Thessaly outside the fortified centres ("ornnia quae erant extra castra"). When they wanted to leave Thessaly and go elsewhere, many others appeared with their wives and children ("multicum uxoribus et filiis") and their combined forces proceeded to wreck other parts of Thessaly. 

Do you know how was called Thessaly in this period when this Albanians invaded it? Greater Wllachia. You can understand why. Because Thessaly was inhabitated by vlachs, not greeks.
How many were this Albanians? Your sources, quoting greek and foreign scholars tell us that at the moment of the creation of Greece as a state after the liberation from the Ottomans, 40-45% of the population of Greece were Albanians. The second ethnic group were vlachs. There were, slavs, turks, etc. 
Read here:
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html
* Report*_
-
THE ARVANITES
History of the community and the language

The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece._

Do you see? From your sources. There are others who pretend that 60% of population were Albanians, but let accept this 40-45%. It`s a huge number. Can we talk here about greeks?
How this population was converted in Greek.
Again the report of Greek Helsink explain very well:
_However, the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta;As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).
The result of the Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks, especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.’
Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states.
One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193).
Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130)._
You see? The same can be said about vlachs, slavs, etc.
Since you are from Macedonia and you consider yourself: _Makedonian original,_ i want to post something about this region:
*Macedonia; its races and their future ([1906])
THE ALBANIANS*
_To keep Albania savage and ignorant is a fundamental principle of Abdul Hamid's statescraft. Macedonia is covered with schools which disseminate the views of every conceivable racial propaganda. There are Greek schools to Hellenise Vlachs and Slavs and Albanians. There are Bulgarian schools which maintain the schism within the Orthodox Church. There are Servian schools to split the Slav element. There are Roumanian schools to detach the Vlachs from the Hellenic interest. On all of these the Porte smiles with an indifferent and capricious favour. The more schools there are and the more propagandas, the less fear is there of a coalition among the Christians against he Turkish yoke. For all of these there is a contemptuous tolerance. They are part of the hereditary Ottoman tradition of dividing to conquer. But Albanian schools fall under a very different category. In them the Turks have seen a force making not for discord, but for unity. The Albanians, divided in religion, have only their language in common, and in the cult of that language lies the hope of the reunion of Moslem and Christian. The Albanian movement, nationalist like all the others, differed from them in seeking its rallying-point not in a religious but in a secular propaganda._

Source:
Macedonia; its races and their future ([1906])
Author: Brailsford, Henry Noel, 1873-1958
https://archive.org/details/macedoniaitsrace00braiuoft

----------


## trdbr1234

> Which is wrong and I extensively explained in previous posts, which you decided not to read. 
> 
> I even pasted wiki links with what the definitions of the language names you wrongly use, and you also ingored them.


I can't understand how you cannot accept a tittle other than Greek for your language, even if for this discussion alone. I'm sure you understand how it would be problematic if I'm arguing that Albanian speakers were considered Greek while also referring to your Kione language as Greek. You talk of ulterior motive behind my insinuations but I think the fact that you cannot under any circumstance accept Kione as not being refereed to as Greek clearly shows your ulterior motive here as well as your lack of sincerity in this discussion. 




> Last effort to this thread (honestly, last): 
> 
> During Medieval Times, some Arvanite communities were living in Greece. Unlike today, there was not a national/ethnical division between the citizens of the Ottoman empire, but only through religion and class. Three languages were spoken at that time: Greek (Medieval/Modern Greek and NOT Koine Greek, which is... spoken till 400AD), Arvanite (at their communities) and Turkish (official language but due to the lack of schools etc only the traders, the Lords and the... Turks were their speakers). 
> 
> Many people were also multilingual. 
> 
> People, used to identify:
> 
> Firstly as peasant (rayas) or Lord secondly as Christian or Muslim and lastly as Romios (Greek speaker), Arvanite (Albanian speaker) or Turk (Turkish speaker). Greek speakers (Romioi) were the vast majority. 
> ...


This must come out of a Greek school textbook. 

Albanians have always had an identity. They were Macedonian, Epirotan, as well as Arberesh and its derivatives. 

Again, I don't see how any of this pertains to anything were discussing here. You've completely ignored what I've written in previous posts. 




> Via education the Greek language was the language that the ex-arvanite speakers started to study and of course speak. Now they are indistinguishable.
> 
> Hope I've been helpful. 
> 
> Sent from my Robin


I hear this propaganda often. 
Albanian immigrants in Greece tell a different story about the Arvanita as well as the Chams in Epiri. Not only are they proud of their origins but continue to maintain their identity. 

The Greek revolution was majorly, if not entirely, Arvanita in element. Not only the fighting force but the Arvanita inhabitants in Greece were at the least equal to the Romei, Vlach, and Slav combined at the time of the revolution. It is sad how the Greek government tries to understate the Arvanita element. 

What you probably don't know is that the revolution was initiated by Ali Pasha Tepelena and the Arvanita revolutionaries had a goal of uniting ALL Albanian lands, as tried Skenderbeu 400 years earlier. 

Again, how does this pertain to our discussion?

----------


## Sakattack

> I can't understand how you cannot accept a tittle other than Greek for your language, even if for this discussion alone. I'm sure you understand how it would be problematic if I'm arguing that Albanian speakers were considered Greek while also referring to your Kione language as Greek. You talk of ulterior motive behind my insinuations but I think the fact that you cannot under any circumstance accept Kione as not being refereed to as Greek clearly shows your ulterior motive here as well as your lack of sincerity in this discussion.


I've posted it some posts above via wiki link, you ignored it, i am posting it again: 




> *Koine Greek* (UK English /ˈkɔɪniː/,[1] US English /kɔɪˈneɪ/, /ˈkɔɪneɪ/ or /kiːˈniː/;[2][3] from Koine Greek ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, "the common dialect"), also known as *Alexandrian dialect*, *common Attic*, *Hellenistic* or *Biblical Greek* (Modern Greek: Ελληνιστική Κοινή, "Hellenistic Koiné", in the sense of "Hellenistic supraregional language"), was the common supra-regional form of Greek spoken and written during Hellenistic and Roman antiquity and the early Byzantine era, or Late Antiquity. It evolved from the spread of Greek following the conquests of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BC, and served as the lingua franca of much of the Mediterranean region and the Middle East during the following centuries. It was based mainly on Attic and related Ionic speech forms, with various admixtures brought about through dialect levelling with other varieties.[4]Koine Greek displayed a wide spectrum of different styles, ranging from more conservative literary forms to the spoken vernaculars of the time.[5] As the dominant language of the Byzantine Empire, it developed further into Medieval Greek, which in turn evolved into Modern Greek.[6] Koine Greek remained the court language of the Byzantine Empire until its dissolution in 1453, while Medieval and eventually Modern Greek were the everyday language.
> Literary Koine was the medium of much of post-classical Greek literary and scholarly writing, such as the works of Plutarch and Polybius.[4] Koine is also the language of the Christian New Testament, of the Septuagint (the 3rd-century BC Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), and of most early Christian theological writing by the Church Fathers. In this context, Koine Greek is also known as "Biblical", "New Testament", "ecclesiastical" or "patristic" Greek.[7] It continues to be used as the liturgical language of services in the Greek Orthodox Church.[8]





Are we clear now about what Koine was/is?
Was that too difficult to click on the link I posted?

Koine Greek, is Greek. 
I can undestand without any problem, both oral and written Koine, because is Greek. I have not studied Ancient Greek, nor made any specific effort to do it. Is the language that Greek priests still read in Greek Orthodox churches. It's just the earlier form of our language. 

For God's sake...




> This must come out of a Greek school textbook. 
> 
> Albanians have always had an identity. They were Macedonian, Epirotan, as well as Arberesh and its derivatives. 
> 
> Again, I don't see how any of this pertains to anything were discussing here. You've completely ignored what I've written in previous posts.


No agendas here. Just try to study history and try to find some objective sources to do and you'll see. Read again carefully what I wrote for a start and understand it. National ID's are a more recent phenomenon and happend just after the historic time frame we are talking about.





> I hear this propaganda often. 
> Albanian immigrants in Greece tell a different story about the Arvanita as well as the Chams in Epiri. Not only are they proud of their origins but continue to maintain their identity. 
> 
> *The Greek revolution was majorly, if not entirely, Arvanita in element. Not only the fighting force but the Arvanita inhabitants in Greece were at the least equal to the Romei, Vlach, and Slav combined at the time of the revolution. It is sad how the Greek government tries to understate the Arvanita element. 
> *
> What you probably don't know is that the revolution was initiated by Ali Pasha Tepelena and the Arvanita revolutionaries had a goal of uniting ALL Albanian lands, as tried Skenderbeu 400 years earlier. 
> 
> Again, how does this pertain to our discussion?


Albanians in Greece are mostly recent immigrants, that came at the early 90s. They keep their ID, but not all of them. Many try to hide it and assimilated really fast to the Greek society. Most of the 2nd generations Albanians feel Greek and in many cases even deny their origin. They changed their names and some even their religion. 

Arvanites (the descedants of the Arvanite of the Medieval times) in Greece, feel 101% Greek (well, in most cases they have only one great grangfather or sth, its very rare to meet anyone with pure Arvanite origin) and of course THEY ARE Greek. I've met many of them. 

The Chams is another story, no time for this now. 

As for the bold, is again false. Everybody recognises their contribution to the revolt, but in no case "it was majorly Arvanita in element". Not even close. Also, FYI, no... Slavs contributed to the revolution. Jeesas. 

Your last paragraph is again false, although very... romantic. The Greeks were just waiting for the best moment to come, in order to start the revolt, and the best timing was when the Ottoman troops moved northwest towards Ali Pasha in Ioannina, in order to repress him. Ali unintentionally, offered to the rebels the best feint possible. No dreams for... Albanian Lands and Albanian United Populations. LOL. Once again, just read about how... nationals these people felt back then, how they identify, what were their goals (mostly economic, and I include most of the Greek generals too) etc etc and then think again. 


Fella, I don't want to seem rude, but honestly I don't think that this discus has anything to offer, nor leads us to any conclusion, so better lets end it. If you have any further question or want to contradict anything, please read a bit first and come inbox :) Our co forumers have not do anything wrong!

----------


## trdbr1234

> I've posted it some posts above via wiki link, you ignored it, i am posting it again: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we clear now about what Koine was/is?
> Was that too difficult to click on the link I posted?
> 
> Koine Greek, is Greek. 
> ...


Again with this....

"Kione is Greek" "Middle Greek" "You speak Greek" Hellenic Greek" 

Do you hear yourself? 

It was called Romei! after 1800's they called it Greek! Yet you insist on it being "Greek". Even if for this discussion.....





> No agendas here. Just try to study history and try to find some objective sources to do and you'll see. Read again carefully what I wrote for a start and understand it. National ID's are a more recent phenomenon and happend just after the historic time frame we are talking about.


As flawed as I see your logic and as low as I perceive your mental capabilities, I have not offended you. 







> Albanians in Greece are mostly recent immigrants, that came at the early 90s. They keep their ID, but not all of them. Many try to hide it and assimilated really fast to the Greek society. Most of the 2nd generations Albanians feel Greek and in many cases even deny their origin. They changed their names and some even their religion.


Again, same propaganda. Let me tell you my story. I'm a second generation American, yet I know how my great grandparents moved to Tirana from Dibra. I know the villages they came from, their neighbor villages, as well as the history of the region. Now, of-course I've seen even 1st generations here assimilate to some degree. That doesn't necessarily mean they don't identify with Albanians or they forgot or don't care about their people or origins. Understand? There's a resilient factor among Albanians. So I see a parallel here between the propaganda of Arvanita as well as the recent Albanian immigrants you are trying to portray. The reality for both is, they're all very much alive. As far as religion, remember how easy Albania became the first atheist country in the world.

Blood is not water! 




> Arvanites (the descedants of the Arvanite of the Medieval times) in Greece, feel 101% Greek (well, in most cases they have only one great grangfather or sth, its very rare to meet anyone with pure Arvanite origin) and of course THEY ARE Greek. I've met many of them. 
> 
> The Chams is another story, no time for this now. 
> 
> As for the bold, is again false. Everybody recognises their contribution to the revolt, but in no case "it was majorly Arvanita in element". Not even close. Also, FYI, no... Slavs contributed to the revolution. Jeesas. 
> 
> Your last paragraph is again false, although very... romantic. The Greeks were just waiting for the best moment to come, in order to start the revolt, and the best timing was when the Ottoman troops moved northwest towards Ali Pasha in Ioannina, in order to repress him. Ali unintentionally, offered to the rebels the best feint possible. No dreams for... Albanian Lands and Albanian United Populations. LOL. Once again, just read about how... nationals these people felt back then, how they identify, what were their goals (mostly economic, and I include most of the Greek generals too) etc etc and then think again. 
> 
> 
> Fella, I don't want to seem rude, but honestly I don't think that this discus has anything to offer, nor leads us to any conclusion, so better lets end it. If you have any further question or want to contradict anything, please read a bit first and come inbox :) Our co forumers have not do anything wrong!


You country propagates that the almighty Helenes(dead for 2000 years) defeated the Turks and won their independence because of the mighty of their Greek'ness. Your country believes there are no minorities in your country. Your country didn't recognize there there were Arvanita in Greece until recently. In fact denied their entire contribution to Greece until recently. Even now they try to propagate that the Suli and other Chams are "completely integrated" into "Greek" society. Denied the existence of the Slavs or Vlach in Greece. This is what you've been raised with and the B.S. you've been fed. Yet, you find unreasonable when I tell you that Ali Pasha started the revolution and Arvanita wanted to unite Albanian lands? Do you understand which one is more ridiculous? 

Now, I explained to you 2 major events of how Albanian speakers were refereed to as Greek. Explain to us exactly how the Romei are Greek. Go forward in time and backwards in time. Just don't forget to include your Romei identity in the Byzantine Empire. Don't forget the Pontic "Greeks" or the Cappadocian "Greeks", as well as all the "Greeks" in Turkey. As far as I can understand, it is all based on language? As in the Romei spoke a Greek dialect as part of the Byzantine Empire, and can claim their "Greek'ness" with this? The same way a Romanian can claim Roman decent? Someone explain to all of us how the Romei are Greeks and what their relation to ancient Greeks are. I can't for the life of me find anything. Because there are a stupid amount of sources that refer to Albanians speakers as Greeks from even as far as Nish and Montenegro.

Good day!

----------


## Sakattack

You seem not to understand and not willing to. 

I surrender and feel sorry for you. 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## Yetos

> I can't understand how you cannot accept a tittle other than Greek for your language, even if for this discussion alone. I'm sure you understand how it would be problematic if I'm arguing that Albanian speakers were considered Greek while also referring to your Kione language as Greek. You talk of ulterior motive behind my insinuations but I think the fact that you cannot under any circumstance accept Kione as not being refereed to as Greek clearly shows your ulterior motive here as well as your lack of sincerity in this discussion. 
> 
> 
> 
> This must come out of a Greek school textbook. 
> 
> Albanians have always had an identity. They were Macedonian, Epirotan, as well as Arberesh and its derivatives. 
> 
> Again, I don't see how any of this pertains to anything were discussing here. You've completely ignored what I've written in previous posts. 
> ...



Sorry nothing about Thread,
Just Albanian imagination and propaganda

----------


## Yetos

> Again with this....
> 
> "Kione is Greek" "Middle Greek" "You speak Greek" Hellenic Greek" 
> 
> Do you hear yourself? 
> 
> It was called Romei! after 1800's they called it Greek! Yet you insist on it being "Greek". Even if for this discussion.....
> 
> 
> ...



*And again negative Albanian propaganda,
*
*The thread is about East Roman |Empire, and why Greeks used the term Romans,

and I proved to you that even in Albania this rerm was Used, as Remenii

The rest is just propaganda,

So I ask the moderators to close this thread so not to be a stupid tool of warmheads, blind posts,

*

----------


## Yetos

Hellenes or Romaioi

Hellenes are the Greeks
Romaioi are the Romans,

But with Christianity the The Term Hellenas Due to codexes Like *CODEX THEODOSIANUS* and others 
*and effort of Christians to Destroy everything Greek,* books leather temples statues etc etc
* and the camps of mass killing of Greek nobility (Scythopolis)
*Greeks accepted the Roman citizenship and Christian religion
and the become citizens of EAST Roman empire *ROMAIOI
there were written punishment if you claim Greek nationality = pagan till exile and death
but not if you Baptised christian = Roman you continue normal your life.

THE BIGGEST PROVE OF THAT IS EVEN TODAY TURKS CALLED THE REMNANTS OF BYZANTINE EMPIRE AS RUM
THEIR LANGUAGE RUMCA,
AND IN CENTRAL MAKEDONIA THEY CALLED THE GREEKS RUMLUK (ΡΩΜΥΛΙΑ-ROMYLIA)
officially termination Yunan and Yunanistan in pappers is after 1821 and Greek revolt
meaning 400 years of Ottoman occupation we were still Romans at pappers

Also same was in Albania 
IS not Strange That Kastrioti claimed Prince of Epirus (HΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ) and Ematheia (ΗΜΑΘΕΙΑ) (clearly Greco-Roman see Byzantine-East empire words)
and a big % of modern Albanians are REMENII (Romans)
Same is also Rumania (Ρωμη-Ρωμανια) which has although Heavily Slavic admixture, Kept the East Roman empire identity
remember that Greek revolt started at Rumania not in Greece

*any other post is away Thread and is just for negative provocative certain Reasons,

*
I ask the moderators to close the Thread.
cause it has gove wild


PS
there is a time and a place on planet which is named Greco-Roman world

*

----------


## trdbr1234

> Hellenes or Romaioi
> 
> Hellenes are the Greeks
> Romaioi are the Romans,
> 
> But with Christianity the The Term Hellenas Due to codexes Like *CODEX THEODOSIANUS* and others 
> *and effort of Christians to Destroy everything Greek,* books leather temples statues etc etc
> * and the camps of mass killing of Greek nobility (Scythopolis)
> *Greeks accepted the Roman citizenship and Christian religion
> ...


 They called us Arnaut! All Albanians from Greece to Kosova were called Arnaut which is derived from Arberesh. The Kione speaking populations were called Romei. Bulgarians were sometimes called Romei. Even that was because of Romei influence in Ottoman Empire and the banning of Bulgarian in support of Kione in the provinces of Bulgaria. What you did in Greece didn't succeed there however. 

I explained 2 different point in time when Albanian speakers were referred to as Greek, while during the same time, the Kione speaking people were refereed to as Romei. 

I will leave you with 2 amazing songs.

*O e Bukura More*(Peloponnese), an Arberesh song from Italy

https://youtu.be/e-Om6EuTJiE

Eduart Dema - Do ta Marr Nusen Came

https://youtu.be/h2LqrTxzllo

----------


## LABERIA

> They called us Arnaut! All Albanians from Greece to Kosova were called Arnaut which is derived from Arberesh. The Kione speaking populations were called Romei. Bulgarians were sometimes called Romei. Even that was because of Romei influence in Ottoman Empire and the banning of Bulgarian in support of Kione in the provinces of Bulgaria. What you did in Greece didn't succeed there however. 
> 
> I explained 2 different point in time when Albanian speakers were referred to as Greek, while during the same time, the Kione speaking people were refereed to as Romei. 
> 
> I will leave you with 2 amazing songs.
> 
> *O e Bukura More*(Peloponnese), an Arberesh song from Italy
> 
> https://youtu.be/e-Om6EuTJiE
> ...


Do you know that still today greeks call this Arvanites, arnautis? This term Arvanites you can find in books, forums, etc, in real life they are just arnautis and greeks hate them.

----------


## trdbr1234

> Do you know that still today greeks call this Arvanites, arnautis? This term Arvanites you can find in books, forums, etc, in real life they are just arnautis and greeks hate them.


 That is just sad. Majority of them came as refugees from Turkey. Look how they treat them for their hospitality. Despicable!

----------


## Yetos

> *O e Bukura More*(Peloponnese), an Arberesh song from Italy




Only this is enough to call you ignorant

*The song is from Greece,
*
your proffesor in propaganda is not a good one,

----------


## LABERIA

> Only this is enough to call you ignorant
> 
> *The song is from Greece,
> *
> your proffesor in propaganda is not a good one,


No, the song is not from Greece, it's impossibile. The arbëresh community in South Italy is composed mostly from Albanians who arrived from Central and South Albania. There are also arbëresh who arrived in South Italy from Morea, Peloponnesus, Greece. And are exactly these who sing this song. So the song is not from Greece, but is dedicated to a region in Greece, Peloponnesus Peninsula, the region from which they came and this song say:
O More, O Arbëri. 
Oh More(Peloponnesus) Oh Arbëri(Albania).

----------


## Yetos

> No, the song is not from Greece, it's impossibile. The arbëresh community in South Italy is composed mostly from Albanians who arrived from Central and South Albania. There are also arbëresh who arrived in South Italy from Morea, Peloponnesus, Greece. And are exactly these who sing this song. So the song is not from Greece, but is dedicated to a region in Greece, Peloponnesus Peninsula, the region from which they came and this song say:
> O More, O Arbëri. 
> Oh More(Peloponnesus) Oh Arbëri(Albania).




*MODERATORS PLZ CLOSE-LOCKED THIS THREAD

IT HAS GONE VERY FAR FROM THREAD

PLZ* 

*ΑΡΒΕΡΕΣ Arberes* 
The original foolowers of Maniakis general,
They came from S Italy and revolt against Con/polis
Their general Died outside Thessaloniki,
They moved south to Peloponese at 1040 AD and they create the village of Maniaki to honor their genaral
They inhabited the castle of Κορωνη,
their song say goodbuy Μωρεας we left behind our stuff at Κορωνη, 
They were expelled by *Bayezid 2* and *Barbarossa* Pasha after the fall of Corona 1500 AD and battle of Preveza *(ANDREA DORIA)* and moved to Sicelia and S Italy, 1534 AD
they made 3 villages 

*Piana Dei Greci* 
*Hora* Χωρα
Aγιος Δημητριος *St Demetrio Corone
They are the real Arberes Arberesides
*all the rest are just Albanians who moved to Italy

*they had never been at Albania except when they dissemberk from S Italy against Con/polis*

But your ignorance is so big,
cause you the stupidities of Kolla and Demou and Demopoulos
*the last one strangely says that he speaks with me and mention my account name from this forum*

and he does find an answer, only he claims and crup,

WATCH MY POSTS HERE
he copy paste them to his silly page and he says that I have mail discussion with him,

The man is just a crap, stop reading him

----------


## trdbr1234

> *MODERATORS PLZ CLOSE-LOCKED THIS THREAD
> 
> IT HAS GONE VERY FAR FROM THREAD
> 
> PLZ* 
> 
> *ΑΡΒΕΡΕΣ Arberes* 
> The original foolowers of Maniakis general,
> They came from S Italy and revolt against Con/polis
> ...


 You have to organize your thoughts in a more coherent manner. Understandable since English is not your first language but you're just all over the place and I don't understand what you're saying.

You have to prove to us how you are Greek. Explain to us the process and history of how all these people from the Turkish provinces are Greek. What parts of Romei culture descent from Greek ones? So far, the story you are telling us is that you are Greek in the same way Americans are English? Or Romanians are Roman? 

Heres an interesting fact:
Arbereshe - Ar ber eshe 
Ar means gold in Albanian language 
ber means made/ made of 
eshe(eshte) means is 
Arberesh means *Made of Gold* or more properly defined as, *Golden People
*
Isn't this what ancient Greeks were called?

----------


## Yetos

> You have to organize your thoughts in a more coherent manner. Understandable since English is not your first language but you're just all over the place and I don't understand what you're saying.
> 
> You have to prove to us how you are Greek. Explain to us the process and history of how all these people from the Turkish provinces are Greek. What parts of Romei culture descent from Greek ones? So far, the story you are telling us is that you are Greek in the same way Americans are English? Or Romanians are Roman? 
> 
> Heres an interesting fact:
> Arbereshe - Ar ber eshe 
> Ar means gold in Albanian language 
> ber means made/ made of 
> eshe(eshte) means is 
> ...


you read too much science fiction,
or your mind run fast,

i have nothing to prove to your ignorance even about Arberes,
as you see you made a big mistake,

now leave at peace Arbanites,
cause they gain glory,
while Albanians did not,
and go serve the Ottomans, as your grandfather Vallavan pasha

remember the battle of Lalla,
and Lalla is not Adriatik one,

 :Laughing:   :Laughing:

----------


## trdbr1234

> you read too much science fiction,
> or your mind run fast,
> 
> i have nothing to prove to your ignorance even about Arberes,
> as you see you made a big mistake,
> 
> now leave at peace Arbanites,
> cause they gain glory,
> while Albanians did not,
> ...


It's not Arberes. It is Arbereshe for the people and Arberi for the countries where Arbereshe live. 

What is science fiction? Arbereshe is what all Albanians are. It is where the name of our country, Albania, comes from. And it's direct translation in English is *Made of Gold.* What about this is science fiction?

It's the Romei that served the Ottomans my small minded friend. Read into the history of the Romei in the Ottoman Empire and the privileges you had compared to everyone else. 

Who is Vallavan Pasha? What do I, Albanians, or this thread have to do with this? And what about battle of Lalla do I have to remember? 

Do you know why the Turks gave Gjergj Kastrioti the tittle Skenderbe? Iskander is what the Ottomans refereed to Alexander the Great.

----------


## Yetos

> It's not Arberes. It is Arbereshe for the people and Arberi for the countries where Arbereshe live. 
> 
> What is science fiction? Arbereshe is what all Albanians are. It is where the name of our country, Albania, comes from. And it's direct translation in English is *Made of Gold.* What about this is science fiction?
> 
> It's the Romei that served the Ottomans my small minded friend. Read into the history of the Romei in the Ottoman Empire and the privileges you had compared to everyone else. 
> 
> Who is Vallavan Pasha? What do I, Albanians, or this thread have to do with this? And what about battle of Lalla do I have to remember? 
> 
> Do you know why the Turks gave Gjergj Kastrioti the tittle Skenderbe? Iskander is what the Ottomans refereed to Alexander the Great.





*MAN ARE N"T YOU ASHAMED A BIT?*

*I can give you 10 -20 Arbanites and more that Have statues,, and took Glory By Revolt against Tukrs
Tell me on the other side 
DID YOU ALBANINS MADE A STATUE FOR THE ARNAUT

OMER VRIONI ?
ISMAEL PASHA PLIACH?

Great Arnauts, General of the Sultan.

WHY DON"T YOU, THE SONS OF VALLAVAN PASHA MAKE A STATUE TO THEM,
THEY KILLED ARBANITES AND GREEKS WHICH YOU HATE SOM MUCH,

*

*We Honor our heroes,
WHY YOU DON'T you do the same INSTEAD OF STEAL OUR HEROES?

like Omer Vrioni and Ismael Pasha Pliah The famous Arnaut generals

Go and make a monument to eponymous Pashas ones and the anonymous Arnauts who fought obeying Sultan,
Side by side with Ottomans against Greeks and Arbanites.
instead of stealing other peoples Glory.


AllyourpostsinThisforumarecrup,
AND THE ONLY Thing THEY SHOW, IS THAT YOU HATE GREEKS AND ARBANITES,
YOU HATE BOTH,
WHY?
CAUSE THEY TOOK THE GLORY, AND FIGHT FOR FREEDOM,
INSTEAD, YOU FIGHT OBEYING OTTOMANS, HIS MASTERS VOICE SULTAN.


*and even today you do so.

Shame on you guys
but from the sons of Normando/Cumans and Vallavan pasha waht could wait?

----------


## trdbr1234

> *MAN ARE N"T YOU ASHAMED A BIT?*
> 
> *I can give you 10 -20 Arbanites and more that Have statues,, and took Glory By Revolt against Tukrs
> Tell me on the other side 
> DID YOU ALBANINS MADE A STATUE FOR THE ARNAUT
> 
> OMER VRIONI ?
> ISMAEL PASHA PLIACH?
> 
> ...


Ahh I see.... 
You seem to think that Albanians fought for the Ottomans. You haven't the slightest idea of how much we suffered from the Ottomans. Albanian language and publication were banned during Ottoman Empire. Even our church services were made in Serbian, Bulgarian, and Byzantine Kione. Being Albanian was hard! Being a Christian Albanian was near impossible. What did you all do when the powers that be gave you your freedom? You attacked the people that were the most victimized by their occupation. Victimized for the very reason to protect you all! 

You should look into how many Ottoman generals and leaders were of Romei origins. This should cure your ignorance. 

I think you mean Arvanita? Arvanita is just a bastardized version of Arbereshe. This is what they called themselves and still do. Arvanita is what was imposed on them by the Greek government to differentiate them from other Albanians. And no, we certainly don't hate the Arvanita. Many Arvanita have made attempts to unite our people.

What history of yours are we stealing? Unless you mean stealing Arvanita history. This is probable. Your homes however are in Turkey. 

You're like an ultimate trol. You throw all these unrelated topics at people and expect a unified answer. Be clear and precise in what you're saying. You're confusing.

----------


## Diomedes

You guys break my heart. Why this hatred?!

----------


## spartan owl

The "byzantine" empire was a Greek speaking empire called roman empire (the term byzantine was coined in modern times)and it was the eastern half of the roman empire that did not fall from the barbarian invasion.So the inhabitants were called romei meaning romans.
Now the albanians were part of the empire but they did feel like a minority because of the language and because the greek speaking elite saw non greeks(or not hellenised populations) as b-class citizents.In fact some emperors even if they were greek speakers were called by their place of origin ( the paflagonian or the isaurian)by their enemies as disrespect.So the albanians (and other populations as well)did not really have the oportunity to become a high rank officer.The mother of basileios the second for example called the emperial guard captain a"skythian" as disrespect.So it is normal that albanians did not call themselves romei.But all this is just theory as you really can not know how the albanians called them selves back then as there was not an albanian alphabet until 1900 so we really do not have a lot of sources about you guys.Maybe you used both terms romei and albanians.And for sure i would not bet about how kastrioti called him self, seeing that he used the byzantine in battle.

----------


## spartan owl

> The "byzantine" empire was a Greek speaking empire called roman empire (the term byzantine was coined in modern times)and it was the eastern half of the roman empire that did not fall from the barbarian invasion.So the inhabitants were called romei meaning romans.
> Now the albanians were part of the empire but they did feel like a minority because of the language and because the greek speaking elite saw non greeks(or not hellenised populations) as b-class citizents.In fact some emperors even if they were greek speakers were called by their place of origin ( the paflagonian or the isaurian)by their enemies as disrespect.So the albanians (and other populations as well)did not really have the oportunity to become a high rank officer.The mother of basileios the second for example called the emperial guard captain a"skythian" as disrespect.So it is normal that albanians did not call themselves romei.But all this is just theory as you really can not know how the albanians called them selves back then as there was not an albanian alphabet until 1900 so we really do not have a lot of sources about you guys.Maybe you used both terms romei and albanians.And for sure i would not bet about how kastrioti called him self, seeing that he used the byzantine in battle.


the byzantine flag in battle

----------


## LABERIA

> The "byzantine" empire was a Greek speaking empire called roman empire (the term byzantine was coined in modern times)and it was the eastern half of the roman empire that did not fall from the barbarian invasion.So the inhabitants were called romei meaning romans.
> Now the albanians were part of the empire but they did feel like a minority because of the language and because the greek speaking elite saw non greeks(or not hellenised populations) as b-class citizents.In fact some emperors even if they were greek speakers were called by their place of origin ( the paflagonian or the isaurian)by their enemies as disrespect.So the albanians (and other populations as well)did not really have the oportunity to become a high rank officer.The mother of basileios the second for example called the emperial guard captain a"skythian" as disrespect.So it is normal that albanians did not call themselves romei.But all this is just theory as you really can not know how the albanians called them selves back then as there was not an albanian alphabet until 1900 so we really do not have a lot of sources about you guys.Maybe you used both terms romei and albanians.And for sure i would not bet about how kastrioti called him self, seeing that he used the byzantine in battle.


Your post is totally crap and i don't want to waste my time with this your "theories", because it's evident that you lack some basic knowledges. I want to correct you something, the name of the Empire was Roman Empire.

----------


## LABERIA

> the byzantine flag in battle


Could be. But we are not sure about this fact. Many others used during the history the double head eagle. However, if Scanderbeg's flag was that of the Roman Empire, He and Albanians deserved to use it with pride, being the only ones in the former Roman Empire who fought like lions against these alien invaders, protecting their country and the West Europe from this invasion, as opposed to other Orthodox in the Balkans (excluding few cases ) who have accepted willingly to become part of the Ottoman Empire.

----------


## Yetos

> Your post is totally crap and i don't want to waste my time with this your "theories", because it's evident that you lack some basic knowledges. I want to correct you something, the name of the Empire was Roman Empire.


I think that the FYROM treble on political balance has driven you to a strange feeling and thoughts,

is it your war?

----------


## LABERIA

> I think that the FYROM treble on political balance has driven you to a strange feeling and thoughts,
> 
> is it your war?


There is a problem with you Yetos. You are intelligent in a superior level and we, the average people, have difficulty to understand you.

----------


## Yetos

> There is a problem with you Yetos. You are intelligent in a superior level and we, the average people, have difficulty to understand you.



who knows,
maybe I am,
maybe you are
maybe we see only what we want to see.

but you did not answer me,
is it your war?

----------


## LABERIA

> who knows,
> maybe I am,
> maybe you are
> maybe we see only what we want to see.
> 
> but you did not answer me,
> is it your war?


I can`t answer to your question because i don`t understand it. What have to do _Roman Empire_ with _FYROM treble on political balance_? And what have to do this your post in your enigmatic style with the topic?

----------


## Yetos

> I can`t answer to your question because i don`t understand it. What have to do _Roman Empire_ with _FYROM treble on political balance_? And what have to do this your post in your enigmatic style with the topic?



emigmatic? or ainigmatic ?
you do know very well Greek, probably you lived in Greece.
an English speaker outside UK almost never would use that word.

----------


## LABERIA

> emigmatic? or ainigmatic ?
> you do know very well Greek, probably you lived in Greece.
> an English speaker outside UK almost never would use that word.


I don't used the word emigmatic and i don't know why i have to to use the word ainigmatic. I don't know the meaning of this two words, for sure not in English. How can be translated in English this two words mentioned by you? Are this words greek? I wrote in Gg translator the Albanian word enigmatik and the result in English was enigmatic. 
Unfortunately, my knowledge of Greek is very limited, so I always use the translator Gg, but belive me it is always difficult for me. 
BTW, what are you interested to discuss with me? Because i don't understand what is the point here.

----------


## spartan owl

> Your post is totally crap and i don't want to waste my time with this your "theories", because it's evident that you lack some basic knowledges. I want to correct you something, the name of the Empire was Roman Empire.


At least read what i wrote before answering.Here is what i wrote:
_The "byzantine" empire was a Greek speaking empire called roman empire (the term byzantine was coined in modern times)and it was the eastern half of the roman empire that did not fall from the barbarian invasion.
_So in what do you correct me?
The fact that you did not even read what i was saing it is the proof of your fanaticism.
Or maybe you disagree on the fact that albanians were a national minority in the empire?
or you disagree that it was an empire based on the greco-roman civilization and greek speaking?
i think that you do lack of basic knowledges yourself.

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## spartan owl

> Could be. But we are not sure about this fact. Many others used during the history the double head eagle. However, if Scanderbeg's flag was that of the Roman Empire, He and Albanians deserved to use it with pride, being the only ones in the former Roman Empire who fought like lions against these alien invaders, protecting their country and the West Europe from this invasion, as opposed to other Orthodox in the Balkans (excluding few cases ) who have accepted willingly to become part of the Ottoman Empire.


i do not whant to discuss furter about castrioti, but you just agreed with me...
What i am saying is that if he used that flag probably he felt a romios him self no matter what his specific sub-nationality was.
He felt an heir of rome not of roma-gypsies like your co-national is implying.
You agree on that? or you just disagree with everything i say just for the fun of it

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## LABERIA

> At least read what i wrote before answering.Here is what i wrote:
> _The "byzantine" empire was a Greek speaking empire called roman empire (the term byzantine was coined in modern times)and it was the eastern half of the roman empire that did not fall from the barbarian invasion.
> _So in what do you correct me?
> The fact that you did not even read what i was saing it is the proof of your fanaticism.
> Or maybe you disagree on the fact that albanians were a national minority in the empire?
> or you disagree that it was an empire based on the greco-roman civilization and greek speaking?
> i think that you do lack of basic knowledges yourself.


1) The Eastern part of Roman Empire was called Byzantine after that this Empire fell. This Empire, at one point of history changed the language from Latin in Greek but continue to preserve the Roman identity. Many times during the history in West European sources this Empire was also called greek Empire. The use of this term was of derogatory purpose. There was this claim about who were really the heirs of Roman Empire, the East or the West part of Empire. And of course, the East part of Empire continue to call themselves as Romans and used to call the Western side exactly for derogatory purpose as Latins. As i said this Empire at one point decided to switch from Latin to greek. Empire used as language of administration the Greek language. But this don't make this Empire a greek Empire, not a greek speaking. People continued to use their native languages. Usually Empires are multiethnic constructions with an ethnic group as the founder of the Empire. This was not the case of the Eastern Roman Empire. This was really an multiethnic Empire. At the beggining was an Empire ruled by Illyrian Emperors. The Illyrians provided not only the Emperors but also the best soldiers. Illyrians were the backbone of this Empire. All this until the Justinian plague and the slavic invasion. After this two catastrophic events, the Empire lost the connection with Balkans and the ruling elite, the Emperors and the most important part of the army arrived from another ethnic group, Armenians. 
2) I don't intend to correct you, it's a waste of time. The discussion in a forum between two persons it's a possibility to express a personal opinion and to comunicate with the other people who read our posts. 
3) I have read the entire post and not only the part that you have quoted in this post and i am absolutely convinced that your post is a crap. 
4) Albanians were a nation among the other nations of this Empire. For me it's hard to find greeks in this Empire. To be honest with you and with the people who read this discussion, there was an tentative to create an greek identity and as consequence a greek nation during the Empire of Nicaea, but it failed before starting. 
5) The East Roman Empire was based in greco-roman civilization. The modern European civilisation is based in greco-roman civilisation. This continent today use as lingua franca the English language even after the BREXIT, but this don't make the today inhabitants of this continent, greek, romans or english. 
The Eastern Roman Empire during the history was influenced, culturally speaking, by others, for example from the persians. But this are very specific topics and i doubt that you have the capacity and the knowledge for a discussion.

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## Yetos

> 1) The Eastern part of Roman Empire was called Byzantine after that this Empire fell. This Empire, at one point of history changed the language from Latin in Greek but continue to preserve the Roman identity. Many times during the history in West European sources this Empire was also called greek Empire. The use of this term was of derogatory purpose. There was this claim about who were really the heirs of Roman Empire, the East or the West part of Empire. And of course, the East part of Empire continue to call themselves as Romans and used to call the Western side exactly for derogatory purpose as Latins. As i said this Empire at one point decided to switch from Latin to greek. Empire used as language of administration the Greek language. But this don't make this Empire a greek Empire, not a greek speaking. People continued to use their native languages. Usually Empires are multiethnic constructions with an ethnic group as the founder of the Empire. This was not the case of the Eastern Roman Empire. This was really an multiethnic Empire. At the beggining was an Empire ruled by Illyrian Emperors. The Illyrians provided not only the Emperors but also the best soldiers. Illyrians were the backbone of this Empire. All this until the Justinian plague and the slavic invasion. After this two catastrophic events, the Empire lost the connection with Balkans and the ruling elite, the Emperors and the most important part of the army arrived from another ethnic group, Armenians. 
> 2) I don't intend to correct you, it's a waste of time. The discussion in a forum between two persons it's a possibility to express a personal opinion and to comunicate with the other people who read our posts. 
> 3) I have read the entire post and not only the part that you have quoted in this post and i am absolutely convinced that your post is a crap. 
> 4) Albanians were a nation among the other nations of this Empire. For me it's hard to find greeks in this Empire. To be honest with you and with the people who read this discussion, there was an tentative to create an greek identity and as consequence a greek nation during the Empire of Nicaea, but it failed before starting. 
> 5) The East Roman Empire was based in greco-roman civilization. The modern European civilisation is based in greco-roman civilisation. This continent today use as lingua franca the English language even after the BREXIT, but this don't make the today inhabitants of this continent, greek, romans or english. 
> The Eastern Roman Empire during the history was influenced, culturally speaking, by others, for example from the persians. But this are very specific topics and i doubt that you have the capacity and the knowledge for a discussion.



*Second time we agree to many,*
my disagreement is that the 'roman citizenship' was a defence to Christian mood,
Greek ment pagan so termination Hellenas=pagan was punished by death by Codex Theodosianus,

and about Armenian or Makedonia Dynasty, I think we might have a misunderstanding of word by Historians, *Aromani Armani*,
Armanoi to Armenoi. yet Makedonian Dynasty is also named as Armenian

the term Illyrians is from Roman area of Illyricum, were Roman major settle their legions with Dacia.

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## LABERIA

> i do not whant to discuss furter about castrioti, but you just agreed with me...
> What i am saying is that if he used that flag probably he felt a romios him self no matter what his specific sub-nationality was.
> He felt an heir of rome not of roma-gypsies like your co-national is implying.
> You agree on that? or you just disagree with everything i say just for the fun of it


At the time of Scanderbeg, the process of the creation of national identity of the Albanians was concluded long time ago. The prove is exactly their war against the Ottomans who started around one century before Scanderbeg and continued after his death until the liberation of Albania from Ottomans. Of course the most glorious part of this war was the organized resistance of Albanians under the leadership of Scanderbeg. It's an historical fact that Albanians divided in religion with part of population orthodox and the other part catholic, decided to unite and to join their leader. And they decided to do this in a officially way. This orthodox and catholic Albanian lords decided to create an alliance with well-defined obligations for the partecipants in this alliance. They have decided to create an common defence by creating an common political and economic structure, an army, contributing with well-defined quotas of soldiers and money. They have decided to recognize Scanderbeg as their leader, delegating to him many powers also in the field of foreign diplomacy. So, in that period of time Albanians were not only a well defined nation with a ethnic consciousness, but as a result of this, they have their state. And i don't understand why Scanderbeg and Albanians had to be identified as romioi and not as Albanians. And Albanians continued to preserve their distinct ethnic identity during the period of Ottoman occupation when many nation from Balkans for example lost their national conscience. The same thing can't be said for the greeks. I don't have any information about a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during XIV-XV century, period of time which corresponds with the invasion of Greece as a territory, let alone alliances and things like this. This fact, combined with demographic data, put at a serious doubt the existence of the greeks as a nation. In the end, the battle for the invasion of Greece, was a battle between Ottomans against Albanians and their ally. And here we are talking about Greece and not Albania. 
Albanians are not a roma-gypsi nation. In Albania, as in other countries including Greece there are communities of gypsy and roma people. But this don't mean that Albanians are gypsy. This is wrong. This people arrived in Balkans during the various invasion. For example the majority of roma people in Albania arrived exactly from Greece and they remained here after that the borders were closed during the Cold War. Our parents used to call them greek roma, denoting the difference with the roma who were in Albania. Also there are no registred settlements of people of different ethnicity in Albania during the Ottoman occupation. I have explained many times that Albanians are a nation with important admixture, but this admixtures were never decisive in the creation of Albanian nation. The same can't be said for Greece. Let me give you one of many examples from your country. A significant part of the today greeks are not native Europeans. They are asiatic who arrived in Greece during the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey during the XX century. But, hey, all this people mentioned here are humans. 
This your sentence was very offensive against Albanians and i am going to report to the mods this your offensive behavior.

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## Yetos

@ Laberia

come on, 
the times of Kastriotis 1/3 of Dyrrachion/Epidamnos was inhabited by Greeks
and 1/2 were Latin speakers, possibly Aromanoi Remenii

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## LABERIA

> @ Laberia
> 
> come on, 
> the times of Kastriotis 1/3 of Dyrrachion/Epidamnos was inhabited by Greeks
> and 1/2 were Latin speakers, possibly Aromanoi Remenii


I don't have any doubt on your knowledge Yetos. The only problem is that you are so ainigmatic in your posts.  :Grin:

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## spartan owl

> At the time of Scanderbeg, the process of the creation of national identity of the Albanians was concluded long time ago. The prove is exactly their war against the Ottomans who started around one century before Scanderbeg and continued after his death until the liberation of Albania from Ottomans. Of course the most glorious part of this war was the organized resistance of Albanians under the leadership of Scanderbeg. It's an historical fact that Albanians divided in religion with part of population orthodox and the other part catholic, decided to unite and to join their leader. And they decided to do this in a officially way. This orthodox and catholic Albanian lords decided to create an alliance with well-defined obligations for the partecipants in this alliance. They have decided to create an common defence by creating an common political and economic structure, an army, contributing with well-defined quotas of soldiers and money. They have decided to recognize Scanderbeg as their leader, delegating to him many powers also in the field of foreign diplomacy. So, in that period of time Albanians were not only a well defined nation with a ethnic consciousness, but as a result of this, they have their state. And i don't understand why Scanderbeg and Albanians had to be identified as romioi and not as Albanians. And Albanians continued to preserve their distinct ethnic identity during the period of Ottoman occupation when many nation from Balkans for example lost their national conscience. The same thing can't be said for the greeks. I don't have any information about a single battle of the greeks against the Ottomans during XIV-XV century, period of time which corresponds with the invasion of Greece as a territory, let alone alliances and things like this. This fact, combined with demographic data, put at a serious doubt the existence of the greeks as a nation. In the end, the battle for the invasion of Greece, was a battle between Ottomans against Albanians and their ally. And here we are talking about Greece and not Albania. 
> Albanians are not a roma-gypsi nation. In Albania, as in other countries including Greece there are communities of gypsy and roma people. But this don't mean that Albanians are gypsy. This is wrong. This people arrived in Balkans during the various invasion. For example the majority of roma people in Albania arrived exactly from Greece and they remained here after that the borders were closed during the Cold War. Our parents used to call them greek roma, denoting the difference with the roma who were in Albania. Also there are no registred settlements of people of different ethnicity in Albania during the Ottoman occupation. I have explained many times that Albanians are a nation with important admixture, but this admixtures were never decisive in the creation of Albanian nation. The same can't be said for Greece. Let me give you one of many examples from your country. A significant part of the today greeks are not native Europeans. They are asiatic who arrived in Greece during the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey during the XX century. But, hey, all this people mentioned here are humans. 
> This your sentence was very offensive against Albanians and i am going to report to the mods this your offensive behavior.


laberia you know that there is something wrong with you right?
You said that"However, if Scanderbeg's flag was that of the Roman Empire, He and Albanians deserved to use it with pride, being the only ones in the former Roman Empire who fought like lions against these alien invaders," and i said that he used the roman flag because he felt a roman not a roma as your conational albanopolis is implying by saing that romei=roma, he said so not me.(as for the greek -roma, in greece we call them tukish-gypsies.The roma are just roma neither greek or albanian)
The rest of your saying about the roman empire is just bullshit.
I just remind you that the greek language was the predominant language even in roman times in the eastern half of the empire and the latin was just for administrative use.
Following your logic the ottoman empire was not turkic speaking because greeks spoke greek, albanians albanian, bulgarians bulgarian etc.
If we did not fight against turks how you explain the existence of the indipendent mani peninsula 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula
And in the end if you were so fierce why you were the only european population converting to the islamic religion of the conquerors?
AND THE FINAL PROOF THAT YOU LACK OF BASIC KNOWLEDGE AND THAT EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS BULLSHIT IS THAT EVEN IN THE TIMES OF THE CRUSADES THE WESTERNERS USED THE WORD GREEK NOT HELLENE OR ROMAN FOR THE INHABITANTS OF CONSTANTINOPOLE. HERE IS Geoffroi de Villehardouin THE CRUSADER THAT IN HIS MEMORIES OF CONQUERING THE ROMAN EMPIRE USING THE TERM GRIEU AND GRIEX FOR CONSTANTINOPOLETANS.
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/ofrol/70
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/1204.html
POPE INNOCENTIUS THE III USING BOTH TERMS ROMANS AND GREEKS FOR THE SAME INHABITANTS IN THE *Innocent III to the Marquis of Montferrat and the Counts of Flanders, Blois and St. Pol.*
http://clc-library-org-docs.angelfire.com/innocent3.html

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## LABERIA

> laberia you know that there is something wrong with you right?
> You said that"However, if Scanderbeg's flag was that of the Roman Empire, He and Albanians deserved to use it with pride, being the only ones in the former Roman Empire who fought like lions against these alien invaders," and i said that he used the roman flag because he felt a roman not a roma *as your conational albanopolis* is implying by saing that romei=roma, he said so not me.(as for the greek -roma, in greece we call them tukish-gypsies.The roma are just roma neither greek or albanian)
> The rest of your saying about the roman empire is just bullshit.
> I just remind you that the greek language was the predominant language even in roman times in the eastern half of the empire and the latin was just for administrative use.
> Following your logic the ottoman empire was not turkic speaking because greeks spoke greek, albanians albanian, bulgarians bulgarian etc.
> If we did not fight against turks how you explain the existence of the indipendent mani peninsula 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula
> And in the end if you were so fierce why you were the only european population converting to the islamic religion of the conquerors?
> AND THE FINAL PROOF THAT YOU LACK OF BASIC KNOWLEDGE AND THAT EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS BULLSHIT IS THAT EVEN IN THE TIMES OF THE CRUSADES THE WESTERNERS USED THE WORD GREEK NOT HELLENE OR ROMAN FOR THE INHABITANTS OF CONSTANTINOPOLE. HERE IS Geoffroi de Villehardouin THE CRUSADER THAT IN HIS MEMORIES OF CONQUERING THE ROMAN EMPIRE USING THE TERM GRIEU AND GRIEX FOR CONSTANTINOPOLETANS.
> ...


OK, but I can't answer about what this albanopolis or others had said in the past here. From what i see, this member has been banned, meanwhile you continue to offend people here. 
BTW, if you discover a battle of greeks in the period of time XIV-XV century, please inform us.

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## Diomedes

I reckon that at least 30% of people living in Albania today have Greek descent. If I remember right, in the beginning of the previous century, 250,000 were Greeks. Not a surprise, since the northern part of Epirus still remains outside Greek borders.

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## LABERIA

> I reckon that at least 30% of people living in Albania today have Greek descent. If I remember right, in the beginning of the previous century, 250,000 were Greeks. Not a surprise, since the northern part of Epirus still remains outside Greek borders.


Well, let's refresh your memory:





BTW, those people who you call greek minority in South Albania, are hellenised vlachs with few assimilated Albanians. This vlachs were invited by Albanian landlords during the XVII century as serfs. Today there are 50.000 of this greeks and they live in 99 villages. 
P. S. 
Funny the story of soldier and the bell.

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## spartan owl

> OK, but I can't answer about what this albanopolis or others had said in the past here. From what i see, this member has been banned, meanwhile you continue to offend people here. 
> BTW, if you discover a battle of greeks in the period of time XIV-XV century, please inform us.


 in the xiv century the byzantine empire was still existing so i do not know what do you mean about that period!
about xv century
Kladas, a Greek from Laconia, was granted lordship by Mehmet over Elos and Varvounia in 1461. Mehmet hoped that Kladas would defend Laconia from the Maniots.[23]During that time, Mani's population grew as a result of an influx of refugees who came from other areas of Greece.[27][Note 2] In 1463, Kladas joined the Venetians in their ongoing war against the Ottomans. He led the Maniots against the Ottomans with Venetian aid until 1479, when the Venetians made peace with the Ottomans and gave the Ottomans the right to rule the _Brazzo di Maina_. Kladas refused to accept the conditions, and so the Venetians put a price on his head.[23]
After the end of the Turko-Venetian War, the Venetians left the Maniots to fend for themselves. Many of the Greeks who had revolted alongside the Venetians were massacred by the Ottomans, but many of them fled to find refuge in Mani. The Maniots continued to resist, and Mehmet sent an army of 2,000 infantry and 300 cavalry against Mani under the command of Ale Boumico.[29] The Venetians, trying to gain favor with the Porte, handed over some Maniot rebels. The Ottomans reached Oitylo before Kladas, and the Maniots attacked and massacred them.[_citation needed_] Only a few escaped; amongst them was Ale Boumico. Kladas invaded the Laconian plain with 14,000 Maniots and killed the Turkish inhabitants.[30]
You did not answer why the french used the word griex for the byzantines if it was not a greek speaking empire.

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## LABERIA

> in the xiv century the byzantine empire was still existing so i do not know what do you mean about that period!
> about xv century
> Kladas, a Greek from Laconia, was granted lordship by Mehmet over Elos and Varvounia in 1461. Mehmet hoped that Kladas would defend Laconia from the Maniots.[23]During that time, Mani's population grew as a result of an influx of refugees who came from other areas of Greece.[27][Note 2] In 1463, Kladas joined the Venetians in their ongoing war against the Ottomans. He led the Maniots against the Ottomans with Venetian aid until 1479, when the Venetians made peace with the Ottomans and gave the Ottomans the right to rule the _Brazzo di Maina_. Kladas refused to accept the conditions, and so the Venetians put a price on his head.[23]
> After the end of the Turko-Venetian War, the Venetians left the Maniots to fend for themselves. Many of the Greeks who had revolted alongside the Venetians were massacred by the Ottomans, but many of them fled to find refuge in Mani. The Maniots continued to resist, and Mehmet sent an army of 2,000 infantry and 300 cavalry against Mani under the command of Ale Boumico.[29] The Venetians, trying to gain favor with the Porte, handed over some Maniot rebels. The Ottomans reached Oitylo before Kladas, and the Maniots attacked and massacred them.[_citation needed_] Only a few escaped; amongst them was Ale Boumico. Kladas invaded the Laconian plain with 14,000 Maniots and killed the Turkish inhabitants.[30]
> You did not answer why the french used the word griex for the byzantines if it was not a greek speaking empire.


I asked you about Greece and Greeks. Roman Empire is another story. 
No, Kladas was an Albanian from Himara, this is what your books say.

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## spartan owl

> Well, let's refresh your memory:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, those people who you call greek minority in South Albania, are hellenised vlachs with few assimilated Albanians. This vlachs were invited by Albanian landlords during the XVII century as serfs. Today there are 50.000 of this greeks and they live in 99 villages. 
> P. S. 
> Funny the story of soldier and the bell.


so i suppose that soldiers brought bells with them in battle?
Do you think that it is possible to find volunteers in large numbers males and females so to falsify a regions ethnicity percentage, then transport them relatively in secret and then having the logistics to feed them?Thats just naive,even modern day germany would have problems in executing such a faraonic task.
so this is how you explain this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_of_Corfu
The *Protocol of Corfu (Greek: Πρωτόκολλο της Κέρκυρας, Albanian: Protokolli i Korfuzit), signed on May 17, 1914, was an agreement between the representatives of the Albanian Government and the Provisional Government of Northern Epirus, which officially recognized the area of Northern Epirus as an autonomous self-governing region under the sovereignty of the prince of the newly established Principality of Albania.[1] The agreement granted the Greeks of the districts of Korytsa and Argyrokastro, which form Northern Epirus, wider religious, educational, cultural and political autonomy, inside the borders of the Albanian state.
*By early May, the Albanian authorities, being unable to suppress the revolt, became willing to start discussions with the intervention of the International Commission. Thus, Prince William of Wied of Albania asked the Commission, which represented the Albanian government,[9] to initiate negotiations. Subsequently, on May 6, the members of the Commission informed Zografos that they were willing to discuss the demands of the Northern Epirote side.

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## LABERIA

> so i suppose that soldiers brought bells with them in battle?
> Do you think that it is possible to find volunteers in large numbers males and females so to falsify a regions ethnicity percentage, then transport them relatively in secret and then having the logistics to feed them?Thats just naive,even modern day germany would have problems in executing such a faraonic task.
> so this is how you explain this?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_of_Corfu
> The *Protocol of Corfu (Greek: Πρωτόκολλο της Κέρκυρας, Albanian: Protokolli i Korfuzit), signed on May 17, 1914, was an agreement between the representatives of the Albanian Government and the Provisional Government of Northern Epirus, which officially recognized the area of Northern Epirus as an autonomous self-governing region under the sovereignty of the prince of the newly established Principality of Albania.[1] The agreement granted the Greeks of the districts of Korytsa and Argyrokastro, which form Northern Epirus, wider religious, educational, cultural and political autonomy, inside the borders of the Albanian state.
> *By early May, the Albanian authorities, being unable to suppress the revolt, became willing to start discussions with the intervention of the International Commission. Thus, Prince William of Wied of Albania asked the Commission, which represented the Albanian government,[9] to initiate negotiations. Subsequently, on May 6, the members of the Commission informed Zografos that they were willing to discuss the demands of the Northern Epirote side.


You think is a faraonic task? You think that author was a liar? 
In 1914, The Great Powers decided to bring Princ Wied to rule in Albania. He ruled in Albania for six months. He ruled a country where large part of it was under foreign occupation, South was invaded by the army of Greece. And if we laughed a little bit with the story of the soldier and the bell, there are other stories who describe the crimes committed by your army that are terrible. There are really horrible stories that cover with shame Greece. So the protocol of Corfu was a agreement with a gun pointed at the temple. 
To debunk your claims and this fake page of Wikipedia, i will quote a source that you can't refute. 
Even after the WWI, this problems continued. At one point, The League of Nations decided to send commission to investigate the situation. And at the head of this commission was.... a Finnish, Jakob Johannes Sederholm. The commission produced a report. Here you can read an interesting part from this report:



> Out of the whole population of Southern Albania taken as comprising the prefectures of Koritza and Arghirocastro, with exclusion of the under-prefecture of Pogradets (which has usually been considered as not belonging to Northern Epirus) but with Chimarra added,* the grecophone population forms about 17%, or about one-sixth of the whole.* All the rest speak Albanian in their homes. *In the prefecture of Koritza there are, even according to Greek statistics, no grecophone people.*


Source:
League of Nations. Report of the Commission of Enquiry in Albania on its Activities from December 19th, 1922, to February 1st, 1923. The Enquiry in Southern Albania. April 6th, 1923. in: League of Nations, Official Journal, Geneva, May 1923, p. 491-502.

As you can see the book that i quoted in the above post and the diplomat sent by The League of Nation give as the same picture. 
1)In South Albania there is an greek minority and they represent one sixth of the entire population of South. 
2) There were no Greeks in Korça, ZERO. 
As you can see, my sources are CORRECT. I can't say the same about your sources.

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## Yetos

Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας is another story,

as the rest Greeks who fought for the liberty of Epiros

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## Diomedes

Theatricality and deception, everywhere, all the time.

Greeks in Northern Epirus prove their existence by just their presence, which prior to the opening of the borders with Greece, has been inhabited mostly by them. At least 4000 years of history. From Chaonians to Molossians and the rest of the Epirotan tribes. Illyria was above Genessus river.

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## spartan owl

> You think is a faraonic task? You think that author was a liar? 
> In 1914, The Great Powers decided to bring Princ Wied to rule in Albania. He ruled in Albania for six months. He ruled a country where large part of it was under foreign occupation, South was invaded by the army of Greece. And if we laughed a little bit with the story of the soldier and the bell, there are other stories who describe the crimes committed by your army that are terrible. There are really horrible stories that cover with shame Greece. So the protocol of Corfu was a agreement with a gun pointed at the temple. 
> To debunk your claims and this fake page of Wikipedia, i will quote a source that you can't refute. 
> Even after the WWI, this problems continued. At one point, The League of Nations decided to send commission to investigate the situation. And at the head of this commission was.... a Finnish, Jakob Johannes Sederholm. The commission produced a report. Here you can read an interesting part from this report:
> 
> Source:
> League of Nations. Report of the Commission of Enquiry in Albania on its Activities from December 19th, 1922, to February 1st, 1923. The Enquiry in Southern Albania. April 6th, 1923. in: League of Nations, Official Journal, Geneva, May 1923, p. 491-502.
> 
> As you can see the book that i quoted in the above post and the diplomat sent by The League of Nation give as the same picture. 
> ...


*i just agree with you 1/6 of south albania were greeks
*i do not understand the part about roman empire.What do you mean that mainland greeks should form an separate army and fight turks separetaly from anatolian greeks?
As for kladas he was born in laconia and lead an laconian army.His family was in laconia for at least 200 year before his birth and was from himara(you also agreed) that is the most greek speaking city in albania.
now the funny part, your sources:
"in one of them a female deputation of philhellenes presented itself;suspicions was aroused;"How?The western commissioners could tell by just looking at them?Do you belive a german or a swede can tell who is greek and who is albanian by looking at them?And it was supposed to be a greek minority so they were supposed to look greeks anyway.Or maybe they could distinguish the epirotan greeks from the peloponnesean greeks apart when even my self usually can not?"the women were ordered to divest themselves of their outer garments" you mean like"strip that is an order!" and how could they tell what they wear underneath they had x-ray vision?or it was just an excuse because they wanted to see if she had big boobs?(just kidding).And why the greeks gave her just the albanian type of coat and not the entire clothing?or just an western kind of clothing? "and underclothing of an exotic type became manifested" wtf?! exotic type?! like a kimono? an hawaiian hula dancer type? a cherokee type?I do not know for the rest of the balkans but greeks did wear western type of clothing by that time.But just let say for the sake of argument that they did not.The balkan female uniforms were all more or less similar.How could the international commissioners say something like "hmmm this type of clothing is not what tosks or ghegs or laberians or any of the other dozen of albanian tribes are wearing.This is typical of northeast peloponnese! hmmm" were they experts on balkan female fashion?
of course i can not belive in such a ridiculous source!

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## spartan owl

> You think is a faraonic task? You think that author was a liar? 
> In 1914, The Great Powers decided to bring Princ Wied to rule in Albania. He ruled in Albania for six months. He ruled a country where large part of it was under foreign occupation, South was invaded by the army of Greece. And if we laughed a little bit with the story of the soldier and the bell, there are other stories who describe the crimes committed by your army that are terrible. There are really horrible stories that cover with shame Greece. So the protocol of Corfu was a agreement with a gun pointed at the temple. 
> To debunk your claims and this fake page of Wikipedia, i will quote a source that you can't refute. 
> Even after the WWI, this problems continued. At one point, The League of Nations decided to send commission to investigate the situation. And at the head of this commission was.... a Finnish, Jakob Johannes Sederholm. The commission produced a report. Here you can read an interesting part from this report:
> 
> Source:
> League of Nations. Report of the Commission of Enquiry in Albania on its Activities from December 19th, 1922, to February 1st, 1923. The Enquiry in Southern Albania. April 6th, 1923. in: League of Nations, Official Journal, Geneva, May 1923, p. 491-502.
> 
> As you can see the book that i quoted in the above post and the diplomat sent by The League of Nation give as the same picture. 
> ...


.
oh and i almost forgot. If 1/6 of the population were greeks why they had to bring people from even from peloponnese to stage a philhellenic committiee

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## ihype02

> I think we are walking around the bush here. Durres, previously Epidamnos, was founded by Greeks and there was also a Greek presence there until the late Middle ages. 
> 
> The Byzantine Greeks never referred to other Orthodox non-Greek speaking peoples as Greek/Romios. Could you offer a source where it says that Albanian speakers were referred to as Greeks?


Plethon did. Did Byzantines regard themselves as Hellenes before 11th century?

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## Tutkun Arnaut

> the more reliable studies about albanian language put its origin among Moesian/Dacian tribes removed at first time by other IE people towards Dardani places (North Macedonia) at some time of History, based on phonetic and structure parts of language and also lack of proper maritime words - sure History is moving on and past is not always the same as present or future! Frontiers moved too - But some things seem showing first Albanians were not "autochtonous" on the Adriatic shores in antiquity - What is not a reason to put fire and war everywhere, and to desespeately try to recover the frontiers like they were supposed to be in 1500 AC, 1000 AC , 1500 BC or during the paleolithic (I doubt there were frontiers then but?) ?



What makes the studies you are referring to as more reliable? explain for us with slow understanding abilities!

Second:: There is an explanation for the lack of some sea words, because there are others who exist! If interested I will explain those to you!

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