# Europe Forum > Travelling & Living in Europe >  Crime maps of Europe

## Maciamo

I have made a series of map using the data from Numbeo as of late 2022. The maps do not show the actual crime rate, but the fear of crimes being committed. So this reflects the sense of insecurity of the population, which is as important as the actual crime rates.

The advantage of Numbeo is that data is available by country _and_ by city. I tried to make the most of it by adding dots on the maps for the largest European cities to compare them with the national average. Cities included are: Amsterdam, Athens, Barcelona, Belfast, Berlin, Birmingham, Bordeaux, Brussels, Budapest, Bucharest, Cologne, Copenhagen, Dublin, Edinburgh, Hamburg, Helsinki, Istanbul, Lille, Lisbon, London, Lyon, Madrid, Manchester, Marseille, Milan, Munich, Nantes, Naples, Oslo, Paris, Prague, Rome, Seville, Sofia, Stockholm, Strasbourg, Stuttgart, Toulouse, Venice, Vienna, and Warsaw. If the dot is not shown for some cities, it means that the rating is the same as the country's average.













The large European cities with the highest sense of insecurity are Marseille, Birmingham and Naples. It's interesting that residents of Marseille report as much insecurity in general as people in Syria, which is in a state of civil war!

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## Maciamo

The impression of local people tend to match the actual crime rates. For example these maps show the actual reported crime rates for car thefts and burglaries.





The regions of Marseille and Naples are clearly hotspots. However the Danes and the Swedes do not seem to feel the insecurity that surrounds them, as if they were oblivious to the high car theft and burglary rates in their countries. Very odd.

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## firetown

> The impression of local people tend to match the actual crime rates. For example these maps show the actual reported crime rates for car thefts and burglaries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The regions of Marseille and Naples are clearly hotspots. However the Danes and the Swedes do not seem to feel the insecurity that surrounds them, as if they were oblivious to the high car theft and burglary rates in their countries. Very odd.


Not odd. Remember me pointing out naivety as possible reason for same populations having unusually high trust in their governments?

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## Angela

> Not odd. Remember me pointing out naivety as possible reason for same populations having unusually high trust in their governments?


Naivete and how WOKE they are.

To a certain extent the first probably feeds the other. 

You can see it in surveys which show that Scandinavians believe there is no wealth inequality in their countries, when in fact there is, and at higher rates than other European countries. Higher even than in the U.S.

The difference is partly that they don't see it, I think, because the social welfare programs give them a decent standard of living, and the upper class must not flaunt it.

"The top 10% of wealth holders in three Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) hold between 65 and 69 per cent of those nations' wealth.In comparison to the other developed economies in Europe, Scandinavian inequality on this measure seriously stands out: they're significantly above British, French, Italian or Spanish levels. Germany and Austria come a little closer, but are still behind. Only finance-dominated Switzerland reaches higher levels of wealth inequality."

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...europe-2014-10

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## Jovialis

One could blame the mafia on the high crime rate, but ironically, neighborhoods in NYC which the mafia operates out of has the lowest crime.

Probably because the NYPD is too inhibited and/or unwilling to do their jobs because of social and political pressures. While if you commit street crime, like muggings, vandalism, etc, there will be consequences in those mafia-protected neighborhoods.

A while ago, when I was hanging out in Brooklynn, a local told me that Mafia-run neighborhoods were probably the safest in the country.

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## Northener

> Not odd. Remember me pointing out naivety as possible reason for same populations having unusually high trust in their governments?


Naivety is a judgement, may be born out expect the worst...., so why I have to adopt a inkblack vision firetown? Why should I?

I sincerely like to live in high trust societies more than in a low trust one. It's my own experience too. I don't look constantly over my shoulder when I'm in the center (shopping area) or at night at street in my neighborhood. And well I consider this as a fine thing, not a worse thing.

I have never been robbed in my city-Groningen- (even my bike was never stolen which is quit an exception), only once in Amsterdam near the railway station in the center, in the mid nineties (when this was a known drugs area). But it's not something to worry about a lot imo.

And call us naive- so be it- but better naive but happy:
https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/d...appiest-europe

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## Northener

> One could blame the mafia on the high crime rate, but ironically, neighborhoods in NYC which the mafia operates out of has the lowest crime.
> 
> Probably because the NYPD is too inhibited and/or unwilling to do their jobs because of social and political pressures. While if you commit street crime, like muggings, vandalism, etc, there will be consequences in those mafia-protected neighborhoods.
> 
> A while ago, when I was hanging out in Brooklynn, a local told me that Mafia-run neighborhoods were probably the safest in the country.


What's the next step Jovialis, to honor the maffia as peacekeepers?

Imo this is the worst postion you can get, when big crime organizations are the big protectors....Because what is won by obviously lower robbery rates is changed by controlling and suppression and in fact robbery from (family) business, protection is not for nothing. Protection money is core maffia thing.

So who is naive?

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## Jovialis

> What's the next step Jovialis, to honor the maffia as peacekeepers?
> 
> Imo this is the worst postion you can get, when big crime organizations are the big protectors....Because what is won by obviously lower robbery rates is changed by controlling and suppression and in fact robbery from (family) business, protection is not for nothing. Protection money is core maffia thing.
> 
> So who is naive?


What is this belligerent post? I am pointing out a FACT. Quality of life crimes, i.e. petty crime, public urination, graffiti, are IN FACT low. Despite the fact that it is traded off for organized crime.

The Nazis rightfully pointed out that smoking was deadly, they built the Audubon, etc. Does that excuse all of the atrocities they committed? Obviously not, obviously, that goes without saying. So why are you trying to single me out in point out something comparable?

I think you better cool your jets.

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## Jovialis

Yes, who is naïve, Northerner? Do you think preventing or restricting law enforcement from doing their job *might* have something to do with recent spikes in crime? Maybe the point is, when there's an area where there is actual coercion against crime, those areas are safer that don't? Seems like common sense to me.

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## Angela

> What is this belligerent post? I am pointing out a FACT. Quality of life crimes, i.e. petty crime, public urination, graffiti, are IN FACT low. Despite the fact that it is traded off for organized crime.
> 
> The Nazis rightfully pointed out that smoking was deadly, they built the Audubon, etc. Does that excuse all of the atrocities they committed? Obviously not, obviously, that goes without saying. So why are you trying to single me out in point out something comparable?
> 
> I think you better cool your jets.


You've committed the cardinal sin of posting something which might be construed as a criticism of a Nordic country, even a mild one. That's absolutely verboten. :) They're "practically perfect in every way", just like Mary Poppins, another fantasy figure.

As for claiming that people in places like Bayridge and Bensonhurst pay protection money to the Mafia, it's just another example of someone's complete misunderstanding of America. 

For crying out loud, it's not the early 1900s, and it's not Europe. All those families which live there don't pay protection money.

It's just that people know that there's quite a few Mafia families living in certain areas. However, it's not like they wear signs or badges, so any street thugs or gang members who come into those areas and mug, rape, burgle etc. might be committing that crime against someone who is "connected", and harming them could be very costly.

About two decades ago, a drunk driver ran down and killed a young girl walking home from her friend's house. He sped away. She was the daughter of a Mafia family. In a few hours he was found dead in his house. The police barely had time to take out their pads and pens. I don't approve of that, to be clear, but it spread rapidly into the zeitgeist of NYC.

You'd have to be crazy to go and commit crimes in that area, or abysmally stupid.

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## Angela

> Yes, who is naïve, Northerner? Do you think preventing or restricting law enforcement from doing their job *might* have something to do with recent spikes in crime? Maybe the point is, when there's an area where there is actual coercion against crime, those areas are safer that don't? Seems like common sense to me.


Imagine thinking that lack of a police presence or the lack of a police response has no effect on crime levels. It boggles the imagination. 

Look at what's happening in California, where people are now routinely going into stores and walking out with armfuls of items, and store security does nothing, nor do any police nearby intervene. Why, you might ask? Because if they do arrest these people they'll be let out without bail immediately. That's if the police aren't accused of racism and hounded out of their jobs.

Look at the grooming scandal in Britain, which is the most "WOKE" community on earth. 

Young, vulnerable teen-age girls were groomed, abused, trafficked, and the police did nothing, despite complaints, because as they stated in their own records, they didn't want to stoke animosity against the Pakistani perpetrators. 

So instead, they sacrificed these young girls, often from poor, dysfunctional, broken families.

It's so horrific, I almost couldn't believe it when I started reading about it.

This is how civilizations die: when the forces of order can no longer protect the majority of their people.

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## Northener

> What is this belligerent post? I am pointing out a FACT. Quality of life crimes, i.e. petty crime, public urination, graffiti, are IN FACT low. Despite the fact that it is traded off for organized crime.
> 
> The Nazis rightfully pointed out that smoking was deadly, they built the Audubon, etc. Does that excuse all of the atrocities they committed? Obviously not, obviously, that goes without saying. So why are you trying to single me out in point out something comparable?
> 
> I think you better cool your jets.


I'm convinced that lower crime rates in a maffia controlled neighborhood is in fact inflated by the fact that protection money (OR any other maffia activity) is as such a kind of crime, but we don't see that in the figures (of course). That is what I'm saying. So I don't understand your response...

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## Northener

> Yes, who is naïve, Northerner? Do you think preventing or restricting law enforcement from doing their job *might* have something to do with recent spikes in crime? Maybe the point is, when there's an area where there is actual coercion against crime, those areas are safer that don't? Seems like common sense to me.


First of all this topic is about European crime rates, so I want to send a few words about NYC but that's all.

You put words in my mound I don't get.

It's simply a fact that in my city (240.000 inhabitants) has not such a thing as no go area's, or totally deprived neighborhoods. No not a perfect world fare from that. But this is simply a fact.

For the rest I'm convinced that the police (c.q. state) must have a 'monopoly on violence'. So absolute gun control, and the police has the guns and when someone else has a gun then it's against the law simple as that. That is real supportive for law enforcement.

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## Angela

[QUOTE=Northener;663690]I'm convinced that lower crime rates in a maffia controlled neighborhood is in fact inflated by the fact that protection money (OR any other maffia activity) is as such a kind of crime, but we don't see that in the figures (of course). That is what I'm saying. So I don't understand your response...[/QUOTE

I know quite a few people who live or have lived there.

NO ONE IS PAYING PROTECTION MONEY! It's fear of the consequences in case they commit a crime against the wrong person.

How dare you insist on something when it's in direct contradiction with what people who are familiar with the area know for a fact. We don't argue with you about specific facts about the Netherlands unless I have proof in the form of statistics. Where are yours? Btw, the Mafia is practically defunct in most endeavors. The organized crime is now dominated by Central Americans, Mexicans, Blacks.

If you knew anything about the U,S, you would know that.

You would also know that parts of Chicago are more dangerous to civilians than the Ukraine. The reason is that despite the fact that guns are illegal there, the black neighborhoods are awash with guns. Heck, even pre-teens have them. The police are "outgunned". 

Stop talking about things of which you're completely ignorant.

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## Northener

[QUOTE=Angela;663694]


> I'm convinced that lower crime rates in a maffia controlled neighborhood is in fact inflated by the fact that protection money (OR any other maffia activity) is as such a kind of crime, but we don't see that in the figures (of course). That is what I'm saying. So I don't understand your response...[/QUOTE
> 
> I know quite a few people who live or have lived there.
> 
> NO ONE IS PAYING PROTECTION MONEY! It's fear of the consequences in case they commit a crime against the wrong person.
> 
> How dare you insist on something when it's in direct contradiction with what people who are familiar with the area know for a fact. We don't argue with you about specific facts about the Netherlands unless I have proof in the form of statistics. Where are yours? Btw, the Mafia is practically defunct in most endeavors. The organized crime is now dominated by Central Americans, Mexicans, Blacks.
> 
> If you knew anything about the U,S, you would know that.
> ...


This is what Jovialis initial stated:



> _Mafia-run neighborhoods were probably the safest in the country._


So no matter how they run it, they run if not protection money (which is well known the initial thing of the maffia) then they run it another way around. 

So it's not about protection money a such but "the running" the "control" 

And no matter what maffia is a criminal organization and when a criminal organization prevents other crime what is the merit, the "maffia run" is already criminal enough. That's my point nothing else.

Enough about the US this is about Europe.

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## Jovialis

> First of all this topic is about European crime rates, so I want to send a few words about NYC but that's all.
> You put words in my mound I don't get.
> It's simply a fact that in my city (240.000 inhabitants) has not such a thing as no go area's, or totally deprived neighborhoods. No not a perfect world fare from that. But this simply a fact.
> For the rest I'm convinced that the police (c.q. state) must have a 'monopoly on violence'. So absolute gun control, and the police has the guns and when someone else has a gun then it's against the law simple as that. That is real supportive for law enforcement.


Your response to me has little to do with the content. More to do with the fact that you precieve I have slighted you in the past. So now you're just salty and argumentative. Mafia is an organization in both US and EU. I'm comparing crime maps of the two in different countries, which displays different results. This is salient to the topic. Of course my explanation of why I should be allowed to post is absurd. You're not the thought police around here, no matter how high you sit on your pedestal.

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## Northener

> Your response to me has little to do with the content. More to do with the fact that you precieve I have slighted you in the past. So now you're just salty and argumentative. Mafia is an organization in both US and EU. I'm comparing crime maps of the two in different countries, which displays different results. This is salient to the topic. Of course my explanation of why I should be allowed to post is absurd. You're not the thought police around here, no matter how high you sit on your pedestal.


May I speak for myself Jovialis?

This was what triggered me:



> _One could blame the mafia on the high crime rate, but ironically, neighborhoods in NYC which the mafia operates out of has the lowest crime.
> _


and




> _Mafia-run neighborhoods were probably the safest in the country._


Imo is a neighborhood were the mafia operates or runs already high crime.

Nothing else.

And I'm always argumentative either towards you or anyone else...no difference.

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## Jovialis

> May I speak for myself Jovialis?
> This was what triggered me:
> and
> _Mafia-run neighborhoods were probably the safest in the country.
> 
> 
> _
> 
> Imo is a neighborhood were the mafia operates c.q runs already high crime.
> ...


Sure, what about all of the white-collar crime and corruption that goes on in "legitimate" circles. I guess that counts for nothing, and goes unnoticed. Or how about Nazi Germany, and the Imperial era UK? The two biggest criminal enterprises in world history.

Is that all high crime, within and of itself, in your opinion then?

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## Northener

> Sure, what about all of the white-collar crime and corruption that goes on in "legitimate" circles. I guess that counts for nothing, and goes unnoticed. Or how about Nazi Germany, and the Imperial era UK? The two biggest criminal enterprises in world history.


Absolute agree. Not to mention tax paradises, like the Virigin Island or the Netherlands  :Mad:

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## Jovialis

That's good than.

For example, I think people like Sam Bankman-Fried, the disgraced CEO of FTX, who is now out on bail, because his mom and dad posted $250 million dollars is far worse for humanity than some street thug.

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## Jovialis

Instead of the rate of crime, it would be interesting to see a map showing the cumulative severity of crime. I'm sure the map would be changed up a bit. Using the Sam Bankman-Fried example would make the Bahamas bright red, since he basically screwed tens of billions out of customers.

Crime like this trickles down. Low-income is associated with high street crime. Yet the condition that creates wide spread low-income starts with unscrupulous actors at the top, abusing their position for their own greed.

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## Jovialis

Crimes in the UK:

https://nypost.com/2021/02/08/man-ar...m-moore-tweet/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/...lable-offense/

Frankly, I would rather live in an area where street crime was a little higher, than a country that would imprison people for tweets and prayers.

The UK seems to have higher street crime AND ridiculous thought crimes... wow!

Maybe if they spent less resources on bullying otherwise law-abiding people for what they think, and focused on tangible violent crimes, they would be better off. But that's too hard to achieve I guess.

The same thing seems to be happening in the USA slowly overtime. Go after meeker people that commit non-violent infraction, who will roll over. While the obstinate street thugs are allowed to rape, murder, and steal with less chance of being inhibited by authorities. Brilliant...

Sounds like an incompetent, and impotent government bullying its people.

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## Angela

> Your response to me has little to do with the content. More to do with the fact that you precieve I have slighted you in the past. So now you're just salty and argumentative. Mafia is an organization in both US and EU. I'm comparing crime maps of the two in different countries, which displays different results. This is salient to the topic. Of course my explanation of why I should be allowed to post is absurd. You're not the thought police around here, no matter how high you sit on your pedestal.


Well, thank you for saying that. The absolute nerve of this guy telling you or I what we can post.

I just love how the fact that someone who is in the Mafia living in a neighborhood means there's less crime because people are afraid they might inadvertently do harm to one of them means the Mafia CONTROL the area or the people who live there. 

Have you ever seen such twisted, illogical thinking in your life? Even he can't believe that a passive circumstance like that equals active control, but he can never admit he was wrong because he didn't know the facts, or even just stop arguing certain points, although the prior shows more character and honor.

"When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong" is something a Jewish father will say, but not our Dutchman. (ref. Dirty Dancing-I adore her father; what a wonderful man.)

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## Northener

> Well, thank you for saying that. The absolute nerve of this guy telling you or I what we can post.
> 
> I just love how the fact that someone who is in the Mafia living in a neighborhood means there's less crime because people are afraid they might inadvertently do harm to one of them means the Mafia CONTROL the area or the people who live there. 
> 
> Have you ever seen such twisted, illogical thinking in your life? Even he can't believe that a passive circumstance like that equals active control, but he can never admit he was wrong because he didn't know the facts, or even just stop arguing certain points, although the prior shows more character and honor.
> 
> "When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong" is something a Jewish father will say, but not our Dutchman. (ref. Dirty Dancing-I adore her father; what a wonderful man.)


Yep the oh so passive Maffia huhuh.

Even then based on scare (= criminal behavior), because people know what they are capable of.

So indeed a portion of your logica invite the terrorizing alley cat into the house and the mice will stay away. That you are then stuck with a rotten cat that turns your whole house upside down, well, we are happy to accept it. I say long live the terrorizing alley cat. That I didn't see that sooner, that sublime logic, stupid!

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## Angela

> Yep the oh so passive Maffia huhuh.
> 
> Even then based on scare (= criminal behavior), because people know what they are capable of.
> 
> So indeed a portion of your logica invite the terrorizing alley cat into the house and the mice will stay away. That you are then stuck with a rotten cat that turns your whole house upside down, well, we are happy to accept it. I say long live the terrorizing alley cat. That I didn't see that sooner, that sublime logic, stupid!


Completely tortured, twisted reasoning, as always.

What is wrong with you? Don't you ever get tired of parading your ignorance about the U.S.? First of all, The RICO statues, which are probably unconstitutional, but whatever, have gutted the Mafia.

For the ones who are left, most do deals with unions or construction companies. Do I approve? Of course not. I was a prosecutor, you silly man, so I, of all people, don't romanticize them. 

However, what possible harm could they do the neighborhood in which they live? Do you think they do business from the homes where their wives and children live? Not that talking about paying off union leaders has any effect on the neighborhood. However, after a certain time they realized all their houses are bugged. That's why they used to meet in social clubs (and get killed there), and then restaurants, and now, the few that are active and haven't gone "legit", i.e. aren't now just investing the money they made , meet in outdoor areas. They don't attack the wives and children of their rivals, unlike the Columbians and the Mexicans and Central Americans, and they don't want their own attacked either.

Do you think they would want to bother their neighbors? They want a safe haven for their families. From what I hear most of them are good neighbors. You don't bother them; they don't bother you. They try to keep a completely low profile. I say all this as a person who at one point prosecuted them, so this isn't a romanticized picture. 

Now, would I choose to live in Bensonhurst or Bayridge? No, I wouldn't, even if the plots of land were bigger. My husband would, though. I'm in a different situation because they have a long memory. Also, even if I hadn't been in the justice system, what if my son or daughter became friendly with their children? Even if they're supposedly "legit" now, I wouldn't be comfortable with that, but how do you say no? Also, how big a favor makes you indebted to them? 

Of course, I wound up living far from those areas thanks to my husband, in a town with just as many Irish and German families as Italian or mixed ones, and what do you know, the son of one "ex" boss moved in right next door. Paid over 2 million cash. Couldn't stand his wife, but he's incredibly friendly and charming. He loved my husband, too much, so that his generosity became onerous. That stigma is still there, though, so we turned down a lot of favors and people are a bit wary, although he's never been charged with anything.

Oh, up the block one of the houses was owned by a guy highlighted in The Wolf of Wall Street. I found him infinitely less "nice" than our reformed or second-generation Cosa Nostra guy, and nobody was wary of him, or of a couple of neighbors employed by Deutsche Bank and let go when the SEC started breathing down the bank's neck. Lots of people who work on Wall Street lived around me, and I often wondered how much I would like them if I knew what they really do at work.

If my neighbor is as "clean" as he seems, who has harmed the most people? I know who I think.

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## Malaparte

Any theories on the low burglary rate in Southern Italy?

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## firetown

> Any theories on the low burglary rate in Southern Italy?


Italians are not naive and secure their homes?

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## traveller

> Naivete and how WOKE they are.
> 
> 
> You can see it in surveys which show that Scandinavians believe there is no wealth inequality in their countries, when in fact there is, and at higher rates than other European countries. Higher even than in the U.S.
> 
> The difference is partly that they don't see it, I think, because the social welfare programs give them a decent standard of living, and the upper class must not flaunt it.
> 
> "The top 10% of wealth holders in three Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden and Denmark) hold between 65 and 69 per cent of those nations' wealth.In comparison to the other developed economies in Europe, Scandinavian inequality on this measure seriously stands out: they're significantly above British, French, Italian or Spanish levels. Germany and Austria come a little closer, but are still behind. Only finance-dominated Switzerland reaches higher levels of wealth inequality."
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/why-...europe-2014-10


The top end wealth of Scandinavians can probably be attributed to careful wealth management and long periods of economic stability. Stora Enso in Sweden traces its roots to a mine opened in 1288. The Danish Kristiansen family still owns Lego their ancestor founded in 1932. And lots of the companies have been able to gain global fame.

Here is a more commonly used measure of inequality, based on income - the GINI index.

27B69914-F265-4A42-90F8-D0E0DA2BCBF1.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality

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## traveller

Some more perspective on crime. Homicide rates in Europe.

C0C11342-9EC7-44B2-AAD0-489E38093BCD.jpg

EC11CDF7-5219-46F7-AD35-5BBE560770D4.jpg

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-western-europe

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## Northener

> Completely tortured, twisted reasoning, as always.
> 
> What is wrong with you? Don't you ever get tired of parading your ignorance about the U.S.? First of all, The RICO statues, which are probably unconstitutional, but whatever, have gutted the Mafia.
> 
> For the ones who are left, most do deals with unions or construction companies. Do I approve? Of course not. I was a prosecutor, you silly man, so I, of all people, don't romanticize them. 
> 
> However, what possible harm could they do the neighborhood in which they live? Do you think they do business from the homes where their wives and children live? Not that talking about paying off union leaders has any effect on the neighborhood. However, after a certain time they realized all their houses are bugged. That's why they used to meet in social clubs (and get killed there), and then restaurants, and now, the few that are active and haven't gone "legit", i.e. aren't now just investing the money they made , meet in outdoor areas. They don't attack the wives and children of their rivals, unlike the Columbians and the Mexicans and Central Americans, and they don't want their own attacked either.
> 
> Do you think they would want to bother their neighbors? They want a safe haven for their families. From what I hear most of them are good neighbors. You don't bother them; they don't bother you. They try to keep a completely low profile. I say all this as a person who at one point prosecuted them, so this isn't a romanticized picture. 
> ...


Really to me this is all an exaggerated reaction, as always. In fact to just one remark namely I don't see the merit of that neighborhoods 'run by the maffia' (dixit Jovialis) have lower crime rates. To me neighborhoods that are 'run' by the maffia already are criminal infected.

That's all, imo: what a fuzz.

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## traveller

02C2065A-9D42-451D-8EC2-9FA734360595.jpg

The Gini index on wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lth_inequality

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## Northener

> The impression of local people tend to match the actual crime rates. For example these maps show the actual reported crime rates for car thefts and burglaries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The regions of Marseille and Naples are clearly hotspots. However the Danes and the Swedes do not seem to feel the insecurity that surrounds them, as if they were oblivious to the high car theft and burglary rates in their countries. Very odd.


An imo possible cause could be that the Scandics as - in lesser extent- Germanic speaking countries are (high) trust societies. That can explain the 'oddity' somewhat higher burglary in these kind of societies don't lead to higher mistrust, or the idea of immediate 'need for protection' c.q. insecurity.

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## traveller

> I have made a series of map using the data from Numbeo as of late 2022.


Where is the Numbeo data coming from?

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## Northener

Interesting research:
https://ourworldindata.org/trust

trust in others & police

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## Angela

To refuse to see the crime around you, which might be a danger to you and your family, because you're been taught to believe it doesn't or won't happen is delusional and stupid.

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## Angela

> The top end wealth of Scandinavians can probably be attributed to careful wealth management and long periods of economic stability. Stora Enso in Sweden traces its roots to a mine opened in 1288. The Danish Kristiansen family still owns Lego their ancestor founded in 1932. And lots of the companies have been able to gain global fame.
> 
> Here is a more commonly used measure of inequality, based on income - the GINI index.
> 
> 27B69914-F265-4A42-90F8-D0E0DA2BCBF1.jpg
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncome_equality


It doesn't tell you the real story. OK, a doctor may not make that much more money than a teacher or factory worker for argument's sake. Who cares? The factory worker lives in a state subsidized apartment while the doctor has inherited wealth and can live in a big, beautiful house so long as it's not too flashy on the outside, because they have to continue to tout this facade that everyone is equal.

Apropos to your point, a study tracking surnames shows the same families have been wealthy for hundreds of years, but the populace doesn't rebel or call for the break-up of monopolies, etc., because they're oblivious to it.

It's the perfect system for the rich if you think about it. No one will ever take away your money. Just give the lower orders subsidized apartments, free education and health care, and pretend everyone lives that way. The Scaninavian aversion to showing off takes care of the rest.

As for me, I'd rather see the world and other human beings clearly; no sugar coating of reality.

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## Northener

> To refuse to see the crime around you, which might be a danger to you and your family, because you're been taught to believe it doesn't or won't happen is delusional and stupid.


Imo that's also in the eye of the beholder. Trust and mistrust is also a thing of upbringing, of differences in societies.

What is delusional and stupid is not objective but subjective.

And besides that in my city/ region there are simply not no go area's or very high crime area's.

The statistics:



> Security and feelings of security play a role in the context of broad prosperity. A relatively favorable situation is emerging for Groningen. Registered crime and the number of offenses encountered have been falling for years and are below the national average. The proportion of residents who often feel unsafe in Groningen in 2020 is also the lowest of all provinces.


https://sociaalplanbureaugroningen.n...rt/veiligheid/

----------


## Angela

> Some more perspective on crime. Homicide rates in Europe.
> 
> C0C11342-9EC7-44B2-AAD0-489E38093BCD.jpg
> 
> EC11CDF7-5219-46F7-AD35-5BBE560770D4.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-western-europe


This is why I never trust these generalized maps. Do you have to go back in time, as you did, to get a clearer picture?

Were the numbers of newly arrived unskilled immigrants taken into consideration by country even in 2016 and up till now? How about other factors which might affect it, like intra-family murders fueled by alcohol or drug abuse. I hear they use a lot of meth in northern Europe, because it's difficult to get other things. Most people are murdered by people they know.

Numbers don't lie, but those who create them do not always consider all the important variables, or worse, indeed lie.

----------


## Jovialis

I think Northener would rather live in a neighborhood where he would potentially get his face slashed by a crackhead. At least there's no organized crime involved, and thus no high crime.

Maybe he would be happy in San Francisco, urination, public defection, shop lifting under $900 is technically not a crime. That would probably make him happier. No crime there!

----------


## Angela

> Italians are not naive and secure their homes?


Indeed, we're not naive. I've rarely seen an old house in a country town without iron grates on the windows on the first floor. That's also what dogs are for.



Try to get through that, why don't you? At the first of files etc., all the old women who sit in front of their windows to monitor their neighborhood will instantly call the police

It's these modern apartment blocks in the city which are dangerous.

It just occurred to me, northern Italian born and partially raised there who sometimes forgets to turn on the alarm system. 

It infuriates my third generation Southern Italian husband. We inherited the alarm system, but he put in motion sensor flood lights outside, and motion sensors inside in case they somehow get in. Then there's our 80 pound part Doberman dog who would love to tear out the throat of anyone who came onto the property. 

Meanwhile, we've never had a burglary. Maybe it's in the genes? Touch what's mine and you're dead?

----------


## Northener

> I think Northener would rather live in a neighborhood where he would potentially get his face slashed by a crackhead. At least there's no organized crime involved, and thus no high crime.
> Maybe he would be happy in San Francisco, urination, public defection, shop lifting under $900 is technically not a crime. That would probably make him happier. No crime there!


Don't fill it in Jovialis, thanks!

Our circumstances and believes are different.

For the rest: I say come and visit Groningen and see for yourself If I'm lying and if this is sodom and gomorra....

----------


## Northener

> Indeed, we're not naive. I've rarely seen an old house in a country town without iron grates on the windows on the first floor. That's also what dogs are for.
> 
> 
> 
> Try to get through that, why don't you? At the first of files etc., all the old women who sit in front of their windows to monitor their neighborhood will instantly call the police
> 
> It's these modern apartment blocks in the city which are dangerous.
> 
> It just occurred to me, northern Italian born and partially raised there who sometimes forgets to turn on the alarm system. 
> ...


Long live the diversity!



https://edition.cnn.com/travel/artic...ows/index.html

----------


## Duarte

Zwarte Piet live in peace and harmony helping Sinterklaas at the end of year festivities. A perfect example of respect to diversity.

----------


## traveller

> This is why I never trust these generalized maps. Do you have to go back in time, as you did, to get a clearer picture?
> 
> Were the numbers of newly arrived unskilled immigrants taken into consideration by country even in 2016 and up till now? How about other factors which might affect it, like intra-family murders fueled by alcohol or drug abuse. I hear they use a lot of meth in northern Europe, because it's difficult to get other things. Most people are murdered by people they know.
> 
> Numbers don't lie, but those who create them do not always consider all the important variables, or worse, indeed lie.


The timeline since the middle ages was the default, to get the clearer picture I actually zoomed in to recent times.

Feel free to read the original study. I know of no countrywide statistics that would exclude a type of criminals. Why would they?

----------


## Northener

> Yes. Zwarte Piet live in peace and harmony helping Sinterklaas at the end of year festivities. A perfect example of tolerance and respect to diversity.


In the 'woke simplicity' this is the summary indeed. Much more to say about this.

----------


## Northener

> Zwarte Piet live in peace and harmony helping Sinterklaas at the end of year festivities. A perfect example of respect to diversity.



To put an end to any possible confusion (and the bitterness between woke/BLM vs the right wing populist, who made the child festivity to a political affair) we now have a 'soot sweep' Piet. That is also more striking because he traditionally comes down the chimney to bring a surprise.

----------


## Duarte

> In the 'woke simplicity' this is the summary indeed. Much more to say about this.


Woke: the wildcard word that can be used for everything when we are talking of unsolved racial issues.

PS: Those who go down the chimney, in addition to the soot that spreads over the body, also find Angolan necklaces and earrings to wear and their hair is burned to the point of becoming extremely frizzy.

----------


## traveller

> flashy on the outside, because they have to continue to tout this facade that everyone is equal.
> 
> It's the perfect system for the rich if you think about it. No one will ever take away your money. Just give the lower orders subsidized apartments, free education and health care, and pretend everyone lives that way. The Scaninavian aversion to showing off takes care of the rest.
> 
> As for me, I'd rather see the world and other human beings clearly; no sugar coating of reality.


As you said, the perfect system :) Happiness in the society is extremely high.

Making sure everyone is fed, healthy and has a basic education does create a stable society. And children take public transport alone to go to school.

As to flaunting the wealth, people do that. The world’s best restaurant has been in Denmark for the past few years. And there are very nice neighbourhoods. No copies of (say) Fontainebleau Palace that I know of, though.

Considering those indexes, the top tier is the top 10% of the society. I’d say it includes a big chunk of professionals like doctors or engineers.

A side note on wealth measurement. Home ownership and real estate prices determine a lot of that. In Sweden, the rate is 65%, about the same as US or UK but in German-speaking countries it’s around 50% (https://tradingeconomics.com/country...ownership-rate). Real estate prices have become a problem though, so much so that banks are issuing extra-long loans to make buying affordable.

----------


## Northener

> Woke: the wildcard word that can be used for everything when we are talking of unsolved racial issues.


Absolute agree.

But on the whole Zwarte Piet had for me and most of the indigenous Dutch never a racial notion (only sweet memories and excitement about Sinterklaas and the surprises). But for some in our society this was differentiated and for them it was racial. I can understand that. Therefore the 'soot sweep' Piet is imo a good solution, no racial label and the tradition- the child festivity- is saved.

It's our Dutch Santa Claus, even more Sinterklaas was brought to New York by Dutch immigrants and became Santa Claus there....

----------


## Duarte

> Absolute agree.





> But on the whole Zwarte Piet had for me and most of the indigenous Dutch never a racial notion (only sweet memories and excitement about Sinterklaas and the surprises). But for some in our society this was differentiated and for them it was racial. I can understand that. Therefore the 'soot sweep' Piet is imo a good solution, no racial label and the tradition- the child festivity- is saved.
> 
> It's our Dutch Santa Claus, even more Sinterklaas was brought to New York by Dutch immigrants and became Santa Claus there....




To you, your family and close friends, a merry Christmas, fed up, cheerful and full of harmony and peace.

These greetings are extended to all members of Eupedia. 

Christmas greetings  :Heart:

----------


## Northener

> To you, your family and close friends, a merry Christmas, fed up, cheerful and full of harmony and peace.
> 
> These greetings are extended to all members of Eupedia. 
> 
> Christmas greetings


*Also to you and your family Duarte!!!
*
About the Santa prototype and Zwarte Piet:

Rita Ghesquiere: 'Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are complex figures. Their origins extend far beyond the period of colonization. There are also different interpretations. Both figures have an ambiguous character in which positive and negative elements are incorporated. Already in the oldest legend 'The story of the three generals' an angry Nicholas speaks menacing language against the emperor. In the legend of Crux, Nicholas uses the rod. Several old legends also present Nicholas as a 'devil charmer'. 

That idea is reinforced in the process of inculturation whereby Christianity incorporates ancient existing myths and rituals. Nicholas as a winter saint then takes on aspects of the Germanic god Wodan, who is both protective and threatening. Guido Gezelle speaks of 'Klaai den duvele' and refers to the English expression Old Nick, a synonym for the devil. From that point of view, Zwarte Piet is the defeated and converted 'demon' who in turn carries positive and negative elements. The rod or gard is originally a positive symbol. Whoever is touched by it gets life force and happiness. This interpretation of Sinterklaas as a winter saint and giver with a shadow figure or servant can only be found in Northern Europe.


In Dutch children's literature from the nineteenth century onwards, both figures are presented more as opposites, although this also requires nuance. In Schenkman's well-known book Sint Nicolaas and his servant, we see that Sint Nicolaas himself holds the sack in his hand and looks at the children sternly admonishing. The text reads:


Egg, egg that Sint Niklaas is far from tame!


There he puts two boys right in his pocket.


It is fixed wages for work and richly earned.


He does not like to punish children, but is their friend.


O bishop, forgive their deez' some time.


Grant, grant them mercy, they will never do it again!


In Bom's edition of the same book, both Saint and Piet ride a horse across the roof. Even then there was a form of equality. Both figures evolve with the zeitgeist. Pedagogical objections caused the punitive aspect to disappear. Secularization stripped Nicholas of his sanctity, the servant of his dark past. In recent decades, Saint Nicholas has been more of a sweet old grandpa. “There are no naughty children” is repeated year after year. The same applies to Zwarte Piet. He is no longer the menacing helper, but the co-organizer of the party. Often he even gets the leading role, because Saint Nicholas is presented as old, sick and tired.


Reducing Zwarte Piet to an externalization of colonial thinking is therefore a strong simplification, which is not entirely correct even after analysis. The religious interpretation offers more and better guidance. but there are other avenues of thought emerging. In his 1994 book Zwarte Piet, Arno Langeler connects the figure of Zwarte Piet with Cristoforo Moro, a historical figure from an illustrious family who played an ambiguous role during the battle for Cyprus in 1570-71. So not a slave at all, but a powerful man with African roots whose family tree goes back to Roman times.


It is also striking that this duo Sinterklaas and Piet is not known in the Southern European countries such as Spain and Portugal, two originally Catholic countries with a strong colonial past. We do find them in the Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, the north of France, Austria, Switzerland and the Czech Republic, among others. This indicates that elements from Germanic culture played an important role in the image.'


Is Zwarte Piet then not 'racist'?


Racist refers to the belief that one race is superior to another and the resulting discrimination. Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet are different, but complement each other perfectly.


Moreover, Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet belong in the first place to mythical thinking, not to rational sensory thinking. After all, rational thinking puts an end to the belief in Sinterklaas. Mythical thinking confronts us with another invisible, transcendent reality. The invisible, the night and the other play a role in this because it is precisely the Unheimlichkeit that removes the boundary between reality and unreality. Of course, stories also have a social relevance because they contain, for example, moral values and pedagogical views.


Looking for the roots of both figures, we see how a certain polarization emerges at a certain moment, but a careful analysis of texts and prints reveals more ambiguity.

Until the 1960s, Piet was presented as the subordinate of Saint Nicholas, sometimes with negative features or menacing. Analysis of recent children's literature shows very clearly that Zwarte Piet has evolved into a decidedly positive character, a pivotal figure who carries the party along. A large-scale study in the Netherlands by Gábor Kozijn in 2014 shows that more than 90 percent of adults and children do not experience Zwarte Piet as racist, but do indeed give the figure a positive image of 'fun', funny' and 'smart'. The opinion of Amsterdammers differs in the sense that a large minority there experience the figure as discriminatory. Among the opponents, Surinamese and Ghanaians in particular set the tone. It is striking that they do not find Zwarte Piet discriminatory for themselves, but for others. It is therefore more about a principled attitude that is not based on knowledge of the stories. But confronting the perception and/or the feelings is not an easy thing.


Criticism from a feminist angle also regularly crops up. Feminists find it discriminatory that the world of Sinterklaas is primarily a male affair. That kind of displeasure usually elicits little sympathy. More positive is the plea to be alert, for example, to the stereotypes in the toys; The same goes for racism. Racist representations of Zwarte Piet, such as lazy or stupid, should rightly be banned from children's literature and other cultural products.'

Is the 'soot sweeper' closer to the original than our current Zwarte Piet with the red lips and the black curls?

‘The soot sweeper who only turns black because of his work in the chimney is indeed closer to what we find in Germanic culture, where the chimney plays an important role as a connection to the world of the gods. In the hearth the gifts are left - the last sheaf, the last fruits of the field - to appease the gods.

In the Netherlands, the Zwarte Piet in pageant clothing with black curls, red lips and sometimes earrings and a white collar appears much earlier than in Flanders. Felix Timmermans, for example, draws Zwarte Piet as a poor tramp. However, the exchange of children's books and television programs ensured that the Dutch interpretation of the servant became increasingly dominant, also in Flanders. 'The clothes make the man', applies to Sinterklaas – mitre, staff, red cloak, etc. – and that also increasingly applies to Piet. There is, however, an important caveat here. In recent children's literature, the image of Piet or the Pieten is predominantly positive, whatever suit he wears.'

----------


## Jovialis

The Left created the word "Woke" as a way to repackage the same failed old garbage ideas they've always had. Also used by corporations as lip-service for clueless white liberals and ethno-nationalistic racial minorities. The Woke America thread has a lot of news links demonstrating this.

Merry Christmas

----------


## firetown

> I think Northener would rather live in a neighborhood where he would potentially get his face slashed by a crackhead. At least there's no organized crime involved, and thus no high crime.
> Maybe he would be happy in San Francisco, urination, public defection, shop lifting under $900 is technically not a crime. That would probably make him happier. No crime there!


I actually lived in San Francisco 20 years ago and worked as a store manager close to the intersection of Haight and Ashbury where all the meth heads congregated and yes, we were all instructed not to bother police unless violence was involved.

----------


## firetown

> I actually lived in San Francisco 20 years ago and worked as a store manager close to the intersection of Haight and Ashbury where all the meth heads congregated and yes, we were all instructed not to bother police unless violence was involved.


Most of our staff didn't even bother confronting shoplifters anymore and was afraid as some of them felt entitled enough to wait to catch some of us outside. They had been "free shopping" for years and figured the new employees who did their job needed to be taught a lesson.

----------


## firetown

Anyways... Merry Christmas everyone! And Happy Hanukkah and whatever everyone celebrated or doesn't celebrate!

----------


## traveller

> The impression of local people tend to match the actual crime rates. For example these maps show the actual reported crime rates for car thefts and burglaries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The regions of Marseille and Naples are clearly hotspots. However the Danes and the Swedes do not seem to feel the insecurity that surrounds them, as if they were oblivious to the high car theft and burglary rates in their countries. Very odd.


One should also consider the variance in reporting crime to the authorities. There is research on that - see https://wp.unil.ch/icvs/

Car theft rate is probably safer in that respect, because you would want to take a stolen car off the register. Even there, the average reporting rate is only 80%, with Mexicans only reporting 3% of thefts…

On the other extreme is sexual crime where the average reporting rate is currently 25%, having risen 2x during last decades. There are also huge reporting variances between countries.

----------


## traveller

> in San Francisco, urination, public defection, shop lifting under $900 is technically not a crime. That would probably make him happier. No crime there!


I cannot think of any big cities in Europe or US without that smell of urine around the party locales…

Small value shoplifting is not a crime in many places, but a misdemeanor. Spain for example has a 400€ limit. For the US, the limits were thus in 2017:

24DE37FB-24C1-4C1A-8123-A33ED0737F63.jpg

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...tate-you-re-in

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## Jovialis

Not all cities have cashless bail and soft on crime district attorneys who give child molesters a slap on the wrist. Which is exactly why places like San Fransico and other parts of California have experienced rashes of smash and grab robberies.

----------


## Jovialis

NYC which I live near and go to often is also experiencing many unprovoked attacks from psychotic homeless drug addicts that push people on train tracks. That's thanks to cashless bail and a Alvin Bragg another soft on crime DA, who allow repeat offenders to walk free.

----------


## Jovialis

> NYC which I live near and go to often is also experiencing many unprovoked attacks from psychotic homeless drug addicts that push people on train tracks. That's thanks to cashless bail and a Alvin Bragg another soft on crime DA, who allow repeat offenders to walk free.


Going back to my original post, this doesn't happen in mafia run neighborhoods. Ironically, this was the original purpose of the mafia. Which was to act as a vigilantante police force, because foreign-occupiers didn't care to protect the people it ruled over, and also abused them.

----------


## traveller

> Going back to my original post, this doesn't happen in mafia run neighborhoods. Ironically, this was the original purpose of the mafia. Which was to act as a vigilantante police force, because foreign-occupiers didn't care to protect the people it ruled over, and also abused them.


One hears much more about such crazy people in the US than in Europe. I wonder if that’s a sign that universal healthcare would be able to help even extremely disadvantaged people and in the US they are just left to cope… which they cannot.

Now thinking how a criminal/vigilante organization deals with such people. I would guess this is through intimidation, beating up people they don’t like, maybe lynching or killing and dumping someone? Driving a car over a homeless person in a neighbourhood where everyone is “blind”? Likewise with anyone they don’t like for some reason, as thugs like the power they have and they must be sure everybody knows what the consequences are when they don’t behave?

I hope I’m exagerrating here.

----------


## Jovialis

Mayor Adams wants to compel these people to be taken into mental health facilities. But some civil rights groups are trying to stop him. I think it is a good first step towards fixing the issue. Many of these crimes are committed by homeless insane people. But another portion are petty street gangs. Frankly, I think the NYPD needs to bring back stop and frisk, and plain clothes police.

----------


## firetown

> One hears much more about such crazy people in the US than in Europe. I wonder if that’s a sign that universal healthcare would be able to help even extremely disadvantaged people and in the US they are just left to cope… which they cannot.
> 
> Now thinking how a criminal/vigilante organization deals with such people. I would guess this is through intimidation, beating up people they don’t like, maybe lynching or killing and dumping someone? Driving a car over a homeless person in a neighbourhood where everyone is “blind”? Likewise with anyone they don’t like for some reason, as thugs like the power they have and they must be sure everybody knows what the consequences are when they don’t behave?
> 
> I hope I’m exagerrating here.


My question to you would be what would scare and stop those criminals. Obviously, the law doesn't.

----------


## traveller

> My question to you would be what would scare and stop those criminals. Obviously, the law doesn't.


Law enforcement and systematic rooting out of criminal behaviour. Going after the leaders and also making sure there is a program of rehabilitation and job creation. Activities for young people like ball courts, local competitions etc. With security cameras getting ever cheaper and more powerful, it should be possible to cover hotspots so that the responsible people can be identified. Of course, any group of hooded people is not a gang so there is a fine line between police harrassment and providing public security. Training of the police force is important here. A friend that works in the security industry tells me that his eye will catch suspiciously acting people even when not working, so he has ended up dealing with shoplifters while shopping himself.

Street gangs are a clear public safety issue and a job market for any other criminal activity.

I have heard New York was in a bad shape in the 1970s/80s and then was able to turn the tables, making jobs and people return. Perhaps that was just about Manhattan, but at least it shows that change can happen.

----------


## traveller

See here on something that appears to have worked:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Reduction_Unit

and some situation description on Glasgow at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_...ingdom#Glasgow

----------


## MOESAN

> The Left created the word "Woke" as a way to repackage the same failed old garbage ideas they've always had. Also used by corporations as lip-service for clueless white liberals and ethno-nationalistic racial minorities. The Woke America thread has a lot of news links demonstrating this.
> 
> Merry Christmas


I 've the subtle but tenacious feeling you don't like too much what you call 'the left' (where you _seem_ putting a lot of concepts and people not always of the same kind, IMO) ...

Late but sincere merry Christmas for all ATW, hoping that 2023 will bring us the light.

----------


## Jovialis

> I 've the subtle but tenacious feeling you don't like too much what you call 'the left' (where you _seem_ putting a lot of concepts and people not always of the same kind, IMO) ...
> Late but sincere merry Christmas for all ATW, hoping that 2023 will bring us the light.


Frankly, when it comes to economic policy, I think left-wing ideas are tolerable. I even have some left-wing leanings on some aspects of it. Unbridled capitalism with no regard for how it affects society is far from ideal in my opinion. We need certain safety nets to keep civilization going. But when it comes to radical left-wing ideas regarding gender, race, immigration, I am completely against it.

Originally, the left did not engage in such matters. In fact, some communists like Castro believed homosexuality was a result of the decadence of capitalism.

----------


## firetown

> See here on something that appears to have worked:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_Reduction_Unit
> 
> and some situation description on Glasgow at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_...ingdom#Glasgow


Has this worked anywhere other than in Scotland?

----------


## traveller

> Has this worked anywhere other than in Scotland?


Apparently the Glasgow work was built on success in Boston and Cincinnati.

There is a bunch of case studies at https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/pop-projects

See also the awards collections linked from there.

----------


## Angela

In other words the police are now trying to do what families and communities used to do. 

Maybe the old-fashioned approach to many of our modern society's ills might just be a loving mother and father living together, having dinner with their family, teaching their children so called antiquated values, and having the neighbors around promoting the same world view and keeping an eye on all the children in the community. Oh, it would help if the children weren't born already damaged from the drug and alcohol abuse of both parents.

----------


## Jovialis

I was thinking more about the topic of organized crime. Japan, which is a wealthy and educated country, with low-crime has one of the most powerful mafia-like organizations in the world; the Yakuza. It kind of flies in face of conjecture as to why groups like this exist in other places. imo

I think a lot of it has to do with a culture of personal honor, masculinity, and glorification of violence, in addition to seeking fortune by unscrupulous means.

----------


## Jovialis

> I was thinking more about the topic of organized crime. Japan, which is a wealthy and educated country, with low-crime has one of the most powerful mafia-like organizations in the world; the Yakuza. It kind of flies in face of conjecture as to why groups like this exist in other places. imo
> 
> *I think a lot of it has to do with a culture of personal honor, masculinity, and glorification of violence, in addition to seeking fortune by unscrupulous means*.



*Social values of masculinity and honor fuel contact with mafia-type groups
*
https://phys.org/news/2018-04-social...onor-fuel.html

These values aren't just found in Southern Italian culture.

But what is the solution to the authors? That people become dis-honorable and effeminate? There's a lot of that going on in the younger generations around the Western world thanks to social-political trends. What a joke.

Perhaps, it goes like so:

Social values of masculinity and honor + lack of opportunities = Mafia-run society

Social values of masculinity and honor + abundance of opportunities = A traditional society

If these attitudes are channeled correctly, we could have the glory days of Western civilization. A strong country with high-trust in institutions, patriotism, strong family values, and reverence for cultural achievements, and beauty.

What does dis-honorable and effeminate social values + abundance of opportunities equal? Modern-day USA and UK?

----------


## firetown

> In other words the police are now trying to do what families and communities used to do. 
> 
> Maybe the old-fashioned approach to many of our modern society's ills might just be a loving mother and father living together, having dinner with their family, teaching their children so called antiquated values, and having the neighbors around promoting the same world view and keeping an eye on all the children in the community. Oh, it would help if the children weren't born already damaged from the drug and alcohol abuse of both parents.


I completely agree. Police needs to be just that... police.
Apparently, "It takes a village" has its origin in an African proverb talking about SHARING responsibility, not taking on responsibilities of parents too busy doing their own thing.
Some of those programs really appear like begging criminals not to commit crimes.
Taking away all fear of consequences is not a long-term solution. Maybe a cosmetic very-short-term one on paper, but all you really do is create a new generation even more dependent on their government rather than learning how to raise own families via examples set by parents held accountable.

----------


## Jovialis

Social values of masculinity and honor among specific groups, along with abundance of opportunity.

Income by European ethnicity in the USA. The decentralized style makes the US system closer to the state of nature, with less interference from artificially imposed limitations to upward mobility. Also some of these groups are very small and recently immigrated under different circumstances. They didn't work their way up from poverty:

Median Household etIncome by detailed ancestry [13][14]

Rank
Ancestry
Income (US$)

6
Basque
94,091

8
Latvian
89,697

9
Macedonian
87,803

13
Austrian
86,499

14
Russian
85,989

15
Lithuanian
85,812

19
Swiss
82,974

20
Slovene
82,728

21
Italian
82,106

22
Greek
82,036

24
Romanian
81,878

25
Ukrainian
81,603

26
Serbian
81,452

27
Croatian
80,683

28
Bulgarian
80,626

29
Slovak
80,388

30
Swedish
80,228

31
Czech
80,142

32
Norwegian
79,783

33
Scottish
79,544

34
Polish
79,503

35
Danish
79,500

36
Portuguese
79,050

37
Belgian
78,355

38
English
78,078

39
Welsh
77,949

40
Hungarian
77,611

41
Finnish
77,356

42
Armenian
77,110

45
Irish
76,036

46
French Canadian
75,949

48
German
75,583

52
Scotch-Irish
72,745

56
Albanian
72,043

58
Spanish
71,903

59
French
71,407

61
Dutch
70,872

64
Cajun
68,383

91
American
57,761

93
Pennsylvania Dutch
56,290

101
Appalachian
49,717

----------


## Angela

> Social values of masculinity and honor among specific groups, along with abundance of opportunity.
> 
> Income by European ethnicity in the USA. The decentralized style makes the US system closer to the state of nature, with less interference from artificially imposed limitations to upward mobility. Also some of these groups are very small and recently immigrated under different circumstances. They didn't work their way up from poverty:
> 
> Median Household etIncome by detailed ancestry [13][14]
> 
> Rank
> Ancestry
> Income (US$)
> ...


Strange they didn't create an Ashkenazi ethnic group. If they had you would have seen most of those numbers for Latvians, Lithuanians and Russians migrate to the Ashkenazi category.

For two thousand years they had no country to fight for or protect them, and as a tiny minority in a Christian Europe, physical resistance meant annihilation, but they certainly know about social cohesiveness and how to organize and get what they want. People forget, but there was a Jewish Mafia very intertwined with the Italian one and an Irish one as well, but they never had the success of the Italian Mafia, for lots of reasons which really don't pertain to this topic. 

The Italian Mafia was ultimately brought down starting with Robert F. Kennedy, who didn't investigate the Irish mob with which his father was affiliated, or the Jewish mob, but the Italian mob. The decay of the value of omerta' among Italian-American members, leading to snitches like Valachi and then the passing of the very probably unconstitutional RICO statues ultimately did them in. By the end what you had left were men like that joke and media hound Gotti and the rat snitch and predator on women Sammy Gravano. I mean, they're all depraved men doing terrible things like extortion, running prostitution rings etc. as well as institutionalizing gambling and trafficking drugs and doing deals with businesses, but the prior generation, the ones from Italy, had some gravitas and honor amongst themselves in that they didn't betray the organization, even if they regularly killed their own bosses to take over the organization. Psychopaths, a number of them, but they kept within certain limits.


Back to topic...apologies for the digression.

I'm sorry to disagree slightly with your premise, but I don't think violence is the determinative element. There are violent men and criminals in every society on earth. The thing is that if they come from cultures where people know how to organize one another in groups to achieve goals, there is some measure of intellect at least in the top men, and an ethic of hard work to achieve those goals, loyalty to the group, keeping your word within the group, then if they have to or want to turn to violent crime, they will master it.

Both the Italian Mafia and the Yakuza are examples, although the Italian Mafia in reality no longer really exists as it once did.

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## Jovialis

> Strange they didn't create an Ashkenazi ethnic group. If they had you would have seen most of those numbers for Latvians, Lithuanians and Russians migrate to the Ashkenazi category.
> 
> For two thousand years they had no country to fight for or protect them, and as a tiny minority in a Christian Europe, physical resistance meant annihilation, but they certainly know about social cohesiveness and how to organize and get what they want. People forget, but there was a Jewish Mafia very intertwined with the Italian one and an Irish one as well, but they never had the success of the Italian Mafia, for lots of reasons which really don't pertain to this topic. 
> 
> The Italian Mafia was ultimately brought down starting with Robert F. Kennedy, who didn't investigate the Irish mob with which his father was affiliated, or the Jewish mob, but the Italian mob. The decay of the value of omerta' among Italian-American members, leading to snitches like Valachi and then the passing of the very probably unconstitutional RICO statues ultimately did them in. By the end what you had left were men like that joke and media hound Gotti and the rat snitch and predator on women Sammy Gravano. I mean, they're all depraved men doing terrible things like extortion, running prostitution rings etc. as well as institutionalizing gambling and trafficking drugs and doing deals with businesses, but the prior generation, the ones from Italy, had some gravitas and honor amongst themselves in that they didn't betray the organization, even if they regularly killed their own bosses to take over the organization. Psychopaths, a number of them, but they kept within certain limits.
> 
> 
> Back to topic...apologies for the digression.
> 
> ...


I believe most of those groups you mentioned are indeed mostly comprised of Jews, including the Austrian-American group.

The Basque-American groups is extremely small, and probably represents well-to-do recent immigrants. Thus not really representative of the Basque in general. Only about 56,000 in the entire country, which is basically a small city. Spread out by state, they're virtually invisible. 



I think I might have misspoke in regard to violence. Indeed, it is seen throughout the whole world. The ability to organize, instead of just thuggish behavior, is the key. Especially when it comes to being on the defensive to protect what is yours. Not all groups are able to do this on the same level.

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## Jovialis

Here are population numbers included with rank by income for European-Americans. Italian-Americans represent a true snapshot of a population in the upper tier, relative to the small numbers of Basque, Latvians, etc.

The Russian-American population, I would bet is substantially Jewish.

Median Household Income by detailed ancestry [13][14]


Rank
Ancestry
Income (US$)
Population Size

6
Basque
94,091
56,297

8
Latvian
89,697
85,723

9
Macedonian
87,803
69,636

13
Austrian
86,499
646,438

14
Russian
85,989
2,432,733

15
Lithuanian
85,812
632,169

19
Swiss
82,974
905,079

20
Slovene
82,728
179,165

21
Italian
82,106
15,767,630 (5,953,262 Italian-Alone)

22
Greek
82,036
1,265,177 - 3,000,000 approx.

24
Romanian
81,878
464,814

25
Ukrainian
81,603
1,017,586

26
Serbian
81,452
700,000 est.

27
Croatian
80,683
414-714 - 1.2 million est.

28
Bulgarian
80,626
250,000 (+30,000 students)

29
Slovak
80,388
790,000

30
Swedish
80,228
3,322, 477 (768,809 Swedish-Alone)

31
Czech
80,142
1,294,789

32
Norwegian
79,783
3,883,173 (1,230,354 Norwegian-Alone)

33
Scottish
79,544
20-25 million (1,618,674 Scottish Alone)

34
Polish
79,503
8,261,094 (2,791,200 Polish Alone)

35
Danish
79,500
1,215,809

36
Portuguese
79,050
1,371,153

37
Belgian
78,355
339,512

38
English
78,078
31,894,251 (12,952,661 English alone)

39
Welsh
77,949
1,956,225

40
Hungarian
77,611
1,323,336

41
Finnish
77,356
653,222

45
Irish
76,036
33,618,500 (9,919,263 Irish Alone)

48
German
75,583
42,532,542 (German Alone 14,323,028)

56
Albanian
72,043
214,300

58
Spanish
71,903
1,489,866

59
French
71,407
8,053,902 (French or French-Canadian alone 2,211,954)

61
Dutch
70,872
3,103,648 (Dutch Alone 916,096)

64
Cajun
68,383
1.2 million

91
American
57,761
17,504,233

93
Pennsylvania Dutch
56,290
n/a

101
Appalachian
49,717
25.7 million

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## MOESAN

> Frankly, when it comes to economic policy, I think left-wing ideas are tolerable. I even have some left-wing leanings on some aspects of it. Unbridled capitalism with no regard for how it affects society is far from ideal in my opinion. We need certain safety nets to keep civilization going. But when it comes to radical left-wing ideas regarding gender, race, immigration, I am completely against it.
> Originally, the left did not engage in such matters. In fact, some communists like Castro believed homosexuality was a result of the decadence of capitalism.


I'm leftist as a whole, and it concerns firstly the social aspect more than the 'societal' one. I understand very well we occidental citizens of evolved countries have to recognize our historical collective responsabilities (colonization by force, slavery ...) or to review our gender stereotypes, but I have hard work to swallow a lot of the 'Woke' concepts, this caricatural war against the "chauvinist patriarcal white male", this confusion put into not mature young heads about gender choice (or no choice!), the systematic revision of History (LOL: pictures with a "black Vercingetorix" or a "drag-queen Julius Caesar", the "not consented kiss to the Belle au Bois Dormant"...) + a one-side repentance for us, forgotten the other Human groups similar behaviour in History, the confusion between victims and heroes, and a lot yet...
Just to say that I don't consider some of the Radical Left Wing people as leftists. Not busy Bobo's maybe.

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## firetown

it's pointless, deleting my post

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## firetown

It is interesting though how leftists push things as far as they think they can and then get "offended" by others taking things further.

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## firetown

> It is interesting though how leftists push things as far as they think they can and then get "offended" by others taking things further.


I need to put "leftists" in quote though they may be confused enough to "identify" themselves as such. I cannot imagine myself in a box. So those who feel a need to do so..

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## Northener

> It is interesting though how leftists push things as far as they think they can and then get "offended" by others taking things further.


I notice that worldwide the 'populist right' (last week around the Trumpist in the US and the Bolsenaro adepts in Brasil) behave like the elephant in the china cabinet. Destructive. Give me the old Burkian conservatives with their sense for modesty, not the neo-right wing- Jacobines!

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## firetown

> I notice that worldwide the 'populist right' (last week around the Trumpist in the US and the Bolsenaro adepts in Brasil) behave like the elephant in the china cabinet. Destructive. Give me the old Burkian conservatives with their sense for modesty, not the neo-right wing- Jacobines!


When getting offended, remember that those getting offended with you are not likely the ones providing new solutions.

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## firetown

> I notice that worldwide the 'populist right' (last week around the Trumpist in the US and the Bolsenaro adepts in Brasil) behave like the elephant in the china cabinet. Destructive. Give me the old Burkian conservatives with their sense for modesty, not the neo-right wing- Jacobines!


I don't like labels. I like common sense.

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## Northener

> I don't like labels. I like common sense.


You use labels like "the leftist" too, and what is for the one common sense it is not for someone else.

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## Northener

> When getting offended, remember that those getting offended with you are not likely the ones providing new solutions.


Could you please explain this, this is pretty enigmatic to me....

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