# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Differences between Western(Catholic-Protestant) and Orthodox civilisations.

## Stears555

After the Great Schism 


It is not a secret in history, that countries civilizations are/were not in the same level of development.
It is well-known that Western and Central Europe, ( the so-called Western civilization) was always more developed than Orthodox Slavic or Eastern European civilization.
The cultural the societal-system and the economical civilizational (and technological) differences between Orthodox countries and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) countries were similar great, as the differences between Northern America (USA Canada) and Southern- (Latino) America.


MEMENTO:
Western things which were not existed in orthodox world:




1. POLITICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL development: Medieval appearance of parliaments (a legislative body(!), DO NOT CONFUSE with the “councils of monarchs” which existed since the beginning of human history), the estates of the realm, the clergy, the nobility, and the commoners,


2. SELF GOVERNMENT status of big royal/imperial cities, (local government systems of cities), which are the direct ancestors of modern self/local governmental systems.


3. ECONOMY: The medieval appearance of banking systems and social effects and status of urban bourgeoisie, the absolute dominance of money-economy (when the vast majority of trade based on money and the taxes customs duties were collected in money) from the 12th -13th century, instead of the former primitive bartel-based commerce (barter dominated the economies orthodox world until the 17-18th centuries.)





4. HIGHER EDUCATION: The medieval appearance of universities and the medieval appearance of secular intellectuals,





5. CULTURE: Knights, the knight-culture, chivalric code, (and the technological effects of crusades from the Holy Land,)

Music and literature: courtly love, troubadours, Gregorian chant, Ars nova, Organum, Motet, Madrigal, Canon and Ballata, Liturgical drama, Novellas,

medieval western THEATER: Mystery or cycle plays, morality and passion plays, which developed into the renaissance theater, the direct ancestor of modern theaters.

Philosophy: Scholasticism and humanist philosophy,



6. The medieval usage of Latin alphabet and medieval spread of movable type printing,


7. TECHNOLOGY: The guild system is an association of artisans or merchants, which organized the training education, and directed master's exam system for artisians. Due to the compulsory foreign studies of the artisian master's candidates, the guilds played key role in the fast spread of technologies and industrial knowledge in the medieval Western World.



8. The defence systems & fortifications: The spread of stone/brick castle defense -systems, the town-walls of western cities from the 11th century. (In the orthodox world, only the capital cities had such a walls . The countries of the Balkan region and the territory of Russian states fell under Ottoman/Mongolian rule very rapidly - with a single decesive open-field battle - due to the lack of the networks of stone/brick castles and fortresses in these countries. The only exception was the greek inhabited Byzantine territories which were well fortified.)



9. FINEARTS and ARCHITECTURE: western architecture, sculpture paintings and fine-arts: the Romanesque style, the Gothic style and the Renaissance style.

The orthodox church buildings and „palaces(?)” were very little, they had primitive structure and poor decorations, their style were influenced by non-European arabic and persian influenced Byzantine ornamentics.






The renaissance & humanism , the reformation and the enlightenment did not influenced/affected the Orthodox (Eastern European) countries.
Before 1870, the industrialization that had developed in Western and Central Europe and the United States did not extend in any significant way to the rest of the world. In Eastern Europe, industrialization lagged far behind, and started only in the 20th century.

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## Stears555

Samuel Huntington called the Orthodox civilization as semi-asian or Eurasian civilization, and considered it as a transition between European and Asian culture.

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## Stears555

What do you think about it? Please feel free to share your opinion.

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## oldeuropeanculture

Are you for real?

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## Stears555

> Are you for real?


......Who?

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## Angela

Pseudo-history, pseudo-sociology, pseudo-theology...a pastiche of misinformation and misinterpretation...the less said the better.

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## Templar

> It is well-known that Western and Central Europe, ( the so-called Western civilization) was always more developed than Orthodox Slavic or Eastern European civilization.


This wasn't always the case. Maybe from the 1300+. Kievan Rus and Byzantine empire were both very developed and powerful states (together they composed over 50% of the orthodox population of Europe).

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## Stears555

> Pseudo-history, pseudo-sociology, pseudo-theology...a pastiche of misinformation and misinterpretation...the less said the better.


Only an illiterate person say this. Can you refute my points? No, because I wrote simple facts. I suggest to read only the books of academic scholar authors, instead of fantasy.

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## Stears555

> This wasn't always the case. Maybe from the 1300+. Kievan Rus and Byzantine empire were both very developed and powerful states (together they composed over 50% of the orthodox population of Europe).


Just see the orthodox Eastern Slavic and Balkan slavic countries, they were backward in technology and economy primitive in societal meaning since their very beginnings.

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## Aberdeen

The flight of Byzantium scholars from the approaching Turkish armies into the previously more backward west created an explosion of learning that led to the Renaissance. And the Rus were actually more advanced than most of the medieval societies of western Europe until the Russians suffered a slight setback in the form of the Mongol invasions.

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## Stears555

> The flight of Byzantium scholars from the approaching Turkish armies into the previously more backward west created an explosion of learning that led to the Renaissance. And the Rus were actually more advanced than most of the medieval societies of western Europe until the Russians suffered a slight setback in the form of the Mongol invasions.


Wrong. Renaissance started long before the Ottomans captured Constantinaples. It had an effect, but it is 500% exaggerated. Hungary was the first country which adopted the renaissance from Italy in the 14th century, and it was even long before the Ottoman conquest of Constantinaples. Do not forget, even the Byzantine intellectuals went to Italian universities, because they were better than their domestic schools. Byzantines had not enough large libraries, like the papal library or libraries of Western universities, or the biggest: the royal library of Hungary.

Russians were backward before the mongol invasions and 500 years after the mongols too... See the primitive little buildings of Russians and balkan slavs. Russia had no serious architecture and arts before Peter the great imported french german holland engineers and artists.

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## John Doe

> Wrong. Renaissance started long before the Ottomans captured Constantinaples. It had an effect, but it is 500% exaggerated. Hungary was the first country which adopted the renaissance from Italy in the 14th century, and it was even long before the Ottoman conquest of Constantinaples. Do not forget, even the Byzantine intellectuals went to Italian universities, because they were better than their domestic schools.


Not entirely accurate, here's from Wikipedia:
"In the revival of neo-Platonism Renaissance humanists did not reject Christianity; quite the contrary, many of the Renaissance's greatest works were devoted to it, and the Church patronized many works of Renaissance art. However, a subtle shift took place in the way that intellectuals approached religion that was reflected in many other areas of cultural life.[18]In addition, many Greek Christian works, including the Greek New Testament, were brought back from Byzantium to Western Europe and engaged Western scholars for the first time since late antiquity. This new engagement with Greek Christian works, and particularly the return to the original Greek of the New Testament promoted by humanists Lorenzo Valla andErasmus, would help pave the way for the Protestant Reformation."




> Russians were backward before the mongol invasions and 500 years after the mongols too... See the primitive little buildings of Russians and balkan slavs. Russia had no serious architecture and arts before Peter the great imported french german holland engineers and artists.


Also not entirely accurate, here's from Wikipedia on the Kievan society:
"Due to the expansion of trade and its geographical proximity, Kiev became the most important trade center and chief among the communes; therefore the leader of Kiev gained political "control" over the surrounding areas. Thisprincedom emerged from a coalition of traditional patriarchic family communes banded together in an effort to increase the applicable workforce and expand the productivity of the land. This union developed the first major cities in the Rus' and was the first notable form of self-government. As these communes became larger, the emphasis was taken off the family holdings and placed on the territory that surrounded. This shift in ideology became known as the verv'.In the 11th century and the 12th century, the princes and their retinues, which were a mixture of Slavic and Scandinavian elites, dominated the society of Kievan Rus'. Leading soldiers and officials received income and land from the princes in return for their political and military services. Kievan society lacked the class institutions and autonomous towns that were typical of Western European feudalism. Nevertheless, urban merchants, artisansand labourers sometimes exercised political influence through a city assembly, the _veche_ (council), which included all the adult males in the population. In some cases, the veche either made agreements with their rulers or expelled them and invited others to take their place. At the bottom of society was a stratum of slaves. More important was a class of tribute-paying peasants, who owed labour duty to the princes. The widespread personalserfdom characteristic of Western Europe did not exist in Kievan Rus'.
The change in political structure led to the inevitable development of the peasant class or smerdy. The smerdy were free un-landed people that found work by laboring for wages on the manors which began to develop around 1031 as the verv' began to dominate socio-political structure. The smerdy were initially given equality in the Kievian law code, they were theoretically equal to the prince, so they enjoyed as much freedom as can be expected of manual laborers. However in the 13th century they began to slowly lose their rights and became less equal in the eyes of the law."


Here's more:

"Kievan Rus', although sparsely populated compared to Western Europe,[100] was not only the largest contemporary European state in terms of area but also culturally advanced.[101] Literacy in Kiev, Novgorod and other large cities was high.[102][103] As birch bark documents attest, they exchanged love letters and prepared cheat sheets for schools. Novgorod had a sewage system[104] and wood paving not often found in other cities at the time. The Russkaya Pravda confined punishments to fines and generally did not use capital punishment.[105] Certain rights were accorded to women, such as property and inheritance rights.[106][107][108]The economic development of Kievan Rus may be translated into demographic statistics. Around 1200, Kiev had a population of 50,000, Novgorod and Chernigov both had around 30,000.[109] Constantinople had population of about 400,000 around 1180.[110] The Soviet scholar Mikhail Tikhomirov calculated that Kievan Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion had around 300 urban centers.[111]
Kievan Rus' also played an important genealogical role in European politics. Yaroslav the Wise, whose stepmother belonged to the greatest dynasty to rule Byzantium, married the only legitimate daughter of the king who Christianized Sweden. His daughters became queens of Hungary, France and Norway, his sons married the daughters of a Polish king and a Byzantine emperor (not to mention a niece of the Pope), while his granddaughters were a German Empress and (according to one theory) the queen of Scotland. A grandson married the only daughter of the last Anglo-Saxon king of England. Thus the Rurikids were a well-connected royal family of the time.[112][113]"

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## King Bardhyl

We should be careful when referring to Wiki, evryone can enter and can edit.





Implemented communism was an invention of slavo-orthodoxy.Started from Russia and expanded generally in the slavic and orthodox countries.
While capitalism was an invention of Anglosaxon Protestantism and expanded in all western part of Europe.
Two different social structures that produced two different social systems.

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## John Doe

> Implemented communism was an invention of slavo-orthodoxy.Started from Russia and expanded generally in the slavic countries.
> While capitalism was an invention of Anglosaxon Protestantism and expanded in all western part of Europe.
> Two different social structures that produced two different social systems.


True but the editor I used cited sources.

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## kamani

Why are we exclusively pairing a religion with a language group and then calling them all names. This does not smell right... Ok Russia was/is less developed than Europe but what has that got to do with Orthodoxy, which was developed as a philosophy by Greek and Albanian Byzantines.

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## John Doe

> Why are we exclusively pairing a religion with a language group and then calling them all names. This does not smell right... Ok Russia was/is less developed than Europe but what has that got to do with Orthodoxy, which was developed as a philosophy by Greek and Albanian Byzantines.


Let's also not forget that according to what I posted (which is cited by sources), Kievan Russia wasn't such a "backwards primitive place" as has been commonly assumed.

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## Stears555

> Not entirely accurate, here's from Wikipedia:
> "In the revival of neo-Platonism Renaissance humanists did not reject Christianity; quite the contrary, many of the Renaissance's greatest works were devoted to it, and the Church patronized many works of Renaissance art. However, a subtle shift took place in the way that intellectuals approached religion that was reflected in many other areas of cultural life.[18]In addition, many Greek Christian works, including the Greek New Testament, were brought back from Byzantium to Western Europe and engaged Western scholars for the first time since late antiquity. This new engagement with Greek Christian works, and particularly the return to the original Greek of the New Testament promoted by humanists Lorenzo Valla andErasmus, would help pave the way for the Protestant Reformation."
> 
> 
> 
> Also not entirely accurate, here's from Wikipedia on the Kievan society:
> "Due to the expansion of trade and its geographical proximity, Kiev became the most important trade center and chief among the communes; therefore the leader of Kiev gained political "control" over the surrounding areas. Thisprincedom emerged from a coalition of traditional patriarchic family communes banded together in an effort to increase the applicable workforce and expand the productivity of the land. This union developed the first major cities in the Rus' and was the first notable form of self-government. As these communes became larger, the emphasis was taken off the family holdings and placed on the territory that surrounded. This shift in ideology became known as the verv'.In the 11th century and the 12th century, the princes and their retinues, which were a mixture of Slavic and Scandinavian elites, dominated the society of Kievan Rus'. Leading soldiers and officials received income and land from the princes in return for their political and military services. Kievan society lacked the class institutions and autonomous towns that were typical of Western European feudalism. Nevertheless, urban merchants, artisansand labourers sometimes exercised political influence through a city assembly, the _veche_ (council), which included all the adult males in the population. In some cases, the veche either made agreements with their rulers or expelled them and invited others to take their place. At the bottom of society was a stratum of slaves. More important was a class of tribute-paying peasants, who owed labour duty to the princes. The widespread personalserfdom characteristic of Western Europe did not exist in Kievan Rus'.
> The change in political structure led to the inevitable development of the peasant class or smerdy. The smerdy were free un-landed people that found work by laboring for wages on the manors which began to develop around 1031 as the verv' began to dominate socio-political structure. The smerdy were initially given equality in the Kievian law code, they were theoretically equal to the prince, so they enjoyed as much freedom as can be expected of manual laborers. However in the 13th century they began to slowly lose their rights and became less equal in the eyes of the law."
> 
> ...


Wrong. You confused ancient greeks and their achievement with byzantines. Byzantine Empire was nor Roman and no continuity of ancient greeks. It was a mongrel population of Middle Eastern Near Eastern and survivor greek population. They were not really European and not really ancient greek by etnic point of view.


The architecture and arts of the Byzantine Empire was influenced strongly by persian and arabic elements. Renaissance West have never was influenced by Byzantine architecture or arts. Byzantines inherited the primitive poor structures and arts of post-classical era roman Empire, which was a decline a draw-back from the classial roman architecture and arts. It was caused by the economic decline of the roman Empire since the fourth century. (The key words of the post classical decline era became: cheaper faster and simplier) So it is not wonder that Renaissance idolized the classical era in its pomp, instead of Byzantine primitive post-classical arts and architechture (which was mongrelized by asian persian and arabic arts.)

The governmental forms of Byzantine Empire, their public administration was also influenced by the Persians.

How the eastern influences transformed Byzantines to Western state and indeological concept into an Eastern civilization?

Byzantium was always in close contact with the absolutism of the Eastern peoples, the ideas of despotism derived from there.

Unlike the West, which separated slowly the church and state, in Byzantium they could never separate religion from Imperial politics.

The religion began under the patronage of the emperor, interwoven with the empire, with the realm, with the political power. The Orthodox Church's servility derives from here. This situation has not changed during the last one and a half thousand years, it produced the state-church in all Orthodox countries, executing the power of government administration and supervision, almost as an organ of police. In such a political system, the clergy cannot progress and remains on a low level, the state does not develop either, life becomes rigid. This is the cause of the amazing primitiveness one notices when crossing the border of Orthodoxia.

In Balkan fashion, lies are considered virtue and to cheat someone is a glory. It would be a mistake to believe that these acts would cause some sort of remorse.

The Byzantines wanted to dominate the world. They elevated this concept to the rank of messianism in the Balkans and later in Russia, where the Greek Orthodox faith was gaining ground. Ever since, in the ethos of Orthodoxia, the East is the incarnation of morality, perfection, truth, it is itself the light, as opposed to the West, which is the nest of sin and decay. The West has to be conquered. In the New Testament the chosen people are the Byzantines whose duty it is to guard the Ortho-dox faith and to prepare the redemption of humanity.

Professor Hans Kohn writes in his book Pan-Slavism (New York: Vintage Books 1960): "Khomyakov (1804--60) a leading Slavophile thinker was convinced by the events of 1848 that hope resided only in Orthodox Slavdom. He predicted in 1848 the end of Austria and of the last Charlemagne's Empire, and the disappearance of papal power 'in the archives of history, followed by Protestantism and by Catholicism... Now it is the turn of Orthodoxy, the turn of the Slav races to enter the stage of the world...'." 






Wrong again: The first greek language Bible was translated to greek before Constantin founded city of Constantinaples.

"Kievan Rus' also played an important genealogical role in European politics" In what sense? The word: "importnt" is a relative term. Sure, they were more important than Orthodox Balkan slavic states or late-nomadic Vlachs (ancestors of modern romanians), but they were nothing more.


There were no self government (local governments) in in Russian cities. You confused the councils of cities (because every city centered state like Novgorod) had a council, but it WAS a CITY state, there were no more local-governments in the state. which created statutums in the above mentioned 300 cities. So they were not local governments of cities, but they were state-governments of the central state (Hungary had more than 500 towns) 

Feudalism did not exist in Most Western European territories. Feudalism existed only in France and Germany, which were the former core territories of the Frankish Empire.


"which included all the adult males in the population. " Resembles to the tribal system of barbarians the Early medieval West, which disappeared by the diversification of labour, the complexity and development of society in the west.

The widespread personalserfdom existed only in the medieval france and germany (the core of former Frankish territories), and it was a real aswer for the contemporary political and societal situation.

Smerdy was not a parliament, because it could not create laws. laws which was created by medieval western parliaments were higher legal norms than the royal decrees, and overwrite it.


You cited some dynastic marrages, which had no importance, when the countries are far from each other. Many Hungarian Kings had wifes from the daughters of Holy Roman Emperors French, Hispanian kings, Italian kings Byzantine Emperors. It had importance when the father-in-law was a ruler of a neighbouring country. 


The countries of the Balkan region and the territory of Russian states fell under Ottoman/Mongolian rule very rapidly - with a single decesive open-field battle - due to the lack of the networks of stone/brick castles and fortresses in these countries. The only exception was the greek inhabited Byzantine territories which were well fortified.)
Because their economy was poor to build such a system.


""Kievan Rus', although sparsely populated compared to Western Europe,[100] was not only the largest contemporary European state in terms of area but also culturally advanced.[101]" culturally advanced? Again, a relative term, they were advanced than their enemies, the nomadic turkic nations of the East, but they were much more primitive than Western Christian neighbours like Hungary or Poland. Medieval Russians military and economic inlfuence were very weak due to their backwardness. There were average at least 300 years of difference in development of society, infrastructure, technology and economics , if you compare them with central European countries.

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## Stears555

Just compare medieval Hungary with your russia , or your other balkan slavic countries. The differences were enormous. WATCH IT in here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-fine-arts

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## John Doe

> Wrong. You confused ancient greeks and their achievement with byzantines. Byzantine Empire was nor Roman and no continuity of ancient greeks. It was a mongrel population of Middle Eastern Near Eastern and survivor greek population. They were not really European and not really ancient greek by etnic point of view.
> 
> 
> The architecture and arts of the Byzantine Empire was influenced strongly by persian and arabic elements. Renaissance West have never was influenced by Byzantine architecture or arts. Byzantines inherited the primitive poor structures and arts of post-classical era roman Empire, which was a decline a draw-back from the classial roman architecture and arts. It was caused by the economic decline of the roman Empire since the fourth century. (The key words of the post classical decline era became: cheaper faster and simplier) So it is not wonder that Renaissance idolized the classical era in its pomp, instead of Byzantine primitive post-classical arts and architechture (which was mongrelized by asian persian and arabic arts.)
> 
> The governmental forms of Byzantine Empire, their public administration was also influenced by the Persians.
> 
> How the eastern influences transformed Byzantines to Western state and indeological concept into an Eastern civilization?
> 
> ...


The term Byzantine has been coined after the demise of the eastern Roman empire, the people of the empire saw themselves as Romans, but spoke Greek, as for being "mongrels", the same can be said of the original Roman empire, which was far from ethnically homogeneous, what was unique about the eastern empire was that it was influenced by both east and west. But it's true that the eastern Roman empire saw itself as somehow different from the old classical empire, in the sense that it was Christian and not Pagan, emperor Justinian even closed the university of Athens that dated to the classical period because of its Pagan roots.

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## John Doe

> Just compare medieval Hungary with your russia , or your other balkan slavic countries. The differences were enormous. WATCH IT in here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-amp-fine-arts


I have no doubt there were differences, I never said there weren't any.
Interesting video, yes I'm aware Hungary was at the frontier between Christendom and the Ottoman empire, at times Hungary was under half Christian and half Muslim control.

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## Angela

@Kamani...Finally, someone with some sense and a grasp of logic. What does the Orthodox faith of Byzantium have to do with the accomplishments or lack of them of the Russians who were converted by them? 

As two of my academic degrees were in European History and I have been reading about it since probably before the poster upthread was born, and I've also taken innumerable courses in Christian theology, I will try to provide some background and a few links should anyone actually be interested in _actual_ history and facts.

This "argument", such as it is, seems to rest on the fact that there is something unique to Christian Orthodoxy in contrast to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism that adversely affects intellectual and economic development. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of the history of the countries involved and of the theology of the three branches of Christianity.

I'll first address the history. The Eastern Roman Empire...Byzantium...lasted for a thousand years after the fall of Rome.The westerners during the Dark Ages were barbarians in comparison. Indeed, The Emperors of Constantinople were content to concede all of it to the barbarians except for Italy.

Should anyone wish to educate themselves, there are innumerable works in Italian about the Byzantines, but I will list only those in English:

This is an extraordinary effort...*dozens* of podcasts about Byzantium. *Great* for long car trips. You have to start with episode one unless you’re already familiar with the history.
http://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/2012/05/

This online book provides excellent information about the Sack of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade . As an ancillary benefit, it highlights the extraordinary civilization of this *Orthodox Christian* empire.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kkA...201203&f=false

This helpful book examines the economics of Byzantium…

http://www.doaks.org/resources/publi...y-of-byzantium


Now, it is true that the fortunes of the Greeks changed with the fall of Constantinople in 1453.
This is an exhaustive work detailing the fall and the effects:
http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/rev...eviews/review/


As a result of conquest and occupation, their history changed drastically. It's true that they did not participate in the Renaissance or The Enlightenment. That affected their development in contrast to that of the West. Those are the vicissitudes and tragedies of fate. It has nothing to do with the value or lack of it of their religion.

The development of the Renaissance in Italy is a vast subject, much too complicated to discuss in this type of thread. Let it suffice to say that there were numerous influences, from memories and knowledge and artifacts still present within Italy, to contact with Byzantium through trade during the 1200s and 1300s and continuing after the Fall of Constantinople, to contact with the Muslim Caliphates, to the mindset of the Italians themselves, in my opinion. 

Moving on to the "Slavic" countries of eastern Europe, their development or lack of development is also the result of the myriad migrations, invasions, influences or lack of influences of their own particular history. To attribute all of it to the religion they happen to share with the Byzantines is simplistic reasoning of the worst kind. Plus, I don't know how it has escaped the attention of some posters that some Slavs are Catholic (the Poles) and some Slavs are Orthodox (the Russians).

Turning to the theology, there are far fewer differences between Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism than there are between either of them and Protestantism. Indeed, the only major difference between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism concerns the primacy of the Papacy. (There are other minor theological differences, but I will not bore everyone by discussing them.) In the days when more people were more concerned about these things, a Catholic out of reach of a Catholic Church could attend Mass and receive Communion from an Orthodox priest. They are within the Apostolic Succession despite the differences in ritual and language and they can validly administer the sacraments. That is decidedly *not* the case with the Protestant sects, not even the Anglican and Lutheran churches, which are also very similar in terms of theology.

Given the discussions up post about the Renaissance in Italy there should not be any doubt that there is no conflict between this theology and the development of trade, commerce, etc. For goodness' sakes, the Italians dominated trade and commerce in the Middle Ages, and into the Renaissance, with the Tuscans inventing bookkeeping and banking. 

And now I've wasted too much time on this...people who try to make one to one correspondences between religion and development or between genetics and development understand neither genetics, nor religion, nor history.

Ah well, more people for the ignore pile. Pretty soon there will be more in it than out of it.

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## Stears555

> I have no doubt there were differences, I never said there weren't any.
> Interesting video, yes I'm aware Hungary was at the frontier between Christendom and the Ottoman empire, at times Hungary was under half Christian and half Muslim control.



Wrong. Ottomans were unable to conquer Kingdom of Hungary, only 1/3 part of it for 150 years. Ottomans have never lived there, Ottomans sent Orthodox and Muslim balkan slavs to the occupied fortresses. 


The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people.[6] Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary[7] Further information: 

Laszlo Kontler, "A History of Hungary" p. 145 Inalcik Halil: "The Ottoman Empire"

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## Stears555

> @Kamani...Finally, someone with some sense and a grasp of logic. What does the Orthodox faith of Byzantium have to do with the accomplishments or lack of them of the Russians who were converted by them? 
> 
> As two of my academic degrees were in European History and I have been reading about it since probably before the poster upthread was born, and I've also taken innumerable courses in Christian theology, I will try to provide some background and a few links should anyone actually be interested in _actual_ history and facts.
> 
> This "argument", such as it is, seems to rest on the fact that there is something unique to Christian Orthodoxy in contrast to Roman Catholicism and Protestantism that adversely affects intellectual and economic development. This shows an absolute lack of understanding of the history of the countries involved and of the theology of the three branches of Christianity.
> 
> I'll first address the history. The Eastern Roman Empire...Byzantium...lasted for a thousand years after the fall of Rome.The westerners during the Dark Ages were barbarians in comparison. Indeed, The Emperors of Constantinople were content to concede all of it to the barbarians except for Italy.
> 
> Should anyone wish to educate themselves, there are innumerable works in Italian about the Byzantines, but I will list only those in English:
> ...


Byzantine Orthodox church was a nationalist church, and represented the interests of Byzantine people. (a proto-Nationalist chauvinist church) However Catholic church of Rome was universal, therefore it supported the new barbarian Western states in Early medieval and high medieval era to develop technology agriculture in catholic countries (effect of catholic monasticism). However Byzantine greeks had no interest to develop signifficatly the Orthodox foreign countries, they seem the orthodox faith as an export material, which grow their influence.

Proto-chauvinism xenophobia and Orthodox church are the same things.

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## Stears555

Again, I've never state that itself the religion (the belief) and development of civilization have strong relations. I've said that the churches (as religious organizations and institutions and their infrastructure with churches monasteries monks clergy ec) have strong impact. Remember, the technological swift of crusade era. It was caused by the church, but not the religion. (Jesus and the Bible, itself the real religion have never wanted similar mascares and wars) Remember the activity of high medieval monks, their rule in the development of agriculture, and the preservation of literacy, the ruins of classic (PAGAN!!!) erudition. Their effects are not based on the faith, but on the church as an organization and its infrastructure.

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## joeyc

> The flight of Byzantium scholars from the approaching Turkish armies into the previously more backward west created an explosion of learning that led to the Renaissance. And the Rus were actually more advanced than most of the medieval societies of western Europe until the Russians suffered a slight setback in the form of the Mongol invasions.


Is this a joke? LOL the Russian civilization was founded by a bunch of Swedes and Finns, who were 30 times more primitive than anything west of the Oder river. Mongols only sacked the most southern cities of Russia. Actually both Genghiz Khan and Tamerlan were very useful to the formation of the Russian state, since they eliminated the various Turkic nomadic tribes like Volga Bulgars and Pechenegs, who were harrassing the Ruskies. Without them now in Moscow people would speak a Turkic language and pray to Allah bowing to Holy Mecca.

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## Stears555

Most of medieval Hungarian cathedrals and palaces were destroyed during the Ottoman wars. But a few of them survived these times.Hungary and Poland were the easternmost bastillon of The Western civilization against Muslims and Orthodox East.
*

Medieval Hungarian High Culture (palaces churches, paintings, sculpture, music and fine-arts) Short 5min video, watch it in full HD !*

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## Stears555

The roots of chauvinism and xenophobia:


There is a well known historical reason for this. Byzantium was always in close contact with the absolutism of the Eastern peoples, the ideas of despotism derived from there.
In Byzantium they could never separate religion from Imperial politics. The religion began under the patronage of the emperor, interwoven with the empire, with the realm, with the political power. The Orthodox Church's servility derives from here. This situation has not changed during the last one and a half thousand years, it produced the state-church in all Orthodox countries, executing the power of government administration and supervision, almost as an organ of police. In such a political system, the clergy cannot progress and remains on a low level, the state does not develop either, life becomes rigid. This is the cause of the amazing primitiveness one notices when crossing the border of Orthodoxia. 
In Balkan fashion, lies are considered virtue and to cheat someone is a glory. It would be a mistake to believe that these acts would cause some sort of remorse.
The Byzantines wanted to dominate the world. They elevated this concept to the rank of messianism in the Balkans and later in Russia, where the Greek Orthodox faith was gaining ground. Ever since, in the ethos of Orthodoxia, the East is the incarnation of morality, perfection, truth, it is itself the light, as opposed to the West, which is the nest of sin and decay. The West has to be conquered. In the New Testament the chosen people are the Byzantines whose duty it is to guard the Ortho-dox faith and to prepare the redemption of humanity.
Professor Hans Kohn writes in his book Pan-Slavism (New York: Vintage Books 1960): "Khomyakov (1804--60) a leading Slavophile thinker was convinced by the events of 1848 that hope resided only in Orthodox Slavdom. He predicted in 1848 the end of Austria and of the last Charlemagne's Empire, and the disappearance of papal power 'in the archives of history, followed by Protestantism and by Catholicism... Now it is the turn of Orthodoxy, the turn of the Slav races to enter the stage of the world...'."
In the East, religious ceremonies are held in each country's language. Today this sounds quite natural, but during the Middle Ages when the Church (of Rome) had a definite role in uniting and reconciling people, the Latin liturgy played a great part in making it possible for the Church to became universal and international, and without doubt, this lead to the develop-ment of European spirituality. In the Balkans the Greek-language Church was established and with its assistance the Gothic- the Armenian-, the Syrian-, the Coptic-, and the Slavic national Churches arose. However the uniting strength and authority over individual nations and churches was missing from this system.
The Orthodoxy in every country remained on the level of its surroundings due to its rigid isolation. Basically it cultiva-ted bold nationalism, however in the early stages more accent was placed on religion than on language. This is well manifes-ted in the historic Serb--Croat hostility, which also serves as a good example of the type of thousand year-long religious ground-conditioning which cannot dissolve even with the decline of the importance of religion.

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## John Doe

> Wrong. Ottomans were unable to conquer Kingdom of Hungary, only 1/3 part of it for 150 years. Ottomans have never lived there, Ottomans sent Orthodox and Muslim balkan slavs to the occupied fortresses. 
> 
> 
> The vast majority of the seventeen and nineteen thousands Ottoman soldiers in service in the Ottoman fortresses in the territory of Hungary were Orthodox and Muslim Balkan Slavs instead of ethnic Turkish people.[6] Southern Slavs were also acting as akinjis and other light troops intended for pillaging in the territory of present-day Hungary[7] Further information: 
> 
> Laszlo Kontler, "A History of Hungary" p. 145 Inalcik Halil: "The Ottoman Empire"


I never said that it was half Islamic, but that it was under partial Muslim (Turkish) control, and you just admitted that it was, for at least 150 years.

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## Stears555

> I never said that it was half Islamic, but that it was under partial Muslim (Turkish) control, and you just admitted that it was, for at least 150 years.


But Turks did not lived there (only some high rank military officers). Ottoman Turkish army conquered some parts of Hungary, but It was the Orthodox and Muslim slavs who guarded their conquests.

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## John Doe

> But Turks did not lived there (only some high rank military officers). Ottoman Turkish army conquered some parts of Hungary, but It was the Orthodox and Muslim slavs who guarded their conquests.


Alright, but it was still officially under Turkish control, just without colonisation, the British controlled India for over a 100 years, but there was little colonisation, but it was still under British control for that amount of time.

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## Stears555

Did you read my new interesting thread? http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-21th-century?

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## Yetos

> Again, I've never state that itself the religion (the belief) and development of civilization have strong relations. I've said that the churches (as religious organizations and institutions and their infrastructure with churches monasteries monks clergy ec) have strong impact. Remember, the technological swift of crusade era. It was caused by the church, but not the religion. (Jesus and the Bible, itself the real religion have never wanted similar mascares and wars) Remember the activity of high medieval monks, their rule in the development of agriculture, and the preservation of literacy, the ruins of classic (PAGAN!!!) erudition. Their effects are not based on the faith, but on the church as an organization and its infrastructure.


*
it was not the schism,*

it was the *crusades,*
if I have time I will expand later.

until you can find and think what crusades manage to do,
to help you,
Algebra, Palimpsest, excange of Culture, Templars & Knights, Holy Shroud and rest,
and more situations like this
ANATOMY an act Forbiden by Church!!!

main reason the remove of FEAR from people's heart, that Church input,
the challenging of Templars against Church,
the Algebra and Palimpsest study and the Universal laws, 

catalytic
the papper, the printing press, the first publication of bible,
NO MORE PROPHETS, NO MORE 'ILLUM' WISE GUYS, people know.

if you want to search more,
find when Con/polis first time change hands, and to whom, and how?

it was not the Schism,
at 6th century, saints and 'holy fathers' go public and targert even emperors, Fear dark ages,
at 12th century scholars scientists rulers, go public against Church, Renaissance

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## Aberdeen

> Is this a joke? LOL the Russian civilization was founded by a bunch of Swedes and Finns, who were 30 times more primitive than anything west of the Oder river. Mongols only sacked the most southern cities of Russia. Actually both Genghiz Khan and Tamerlan were very useful to the formation of the Russian state, since they eliminated the various Turkic nomadic tribes like Volga Bulgars and Pechenegs, who were harrassing the Ruskies. Without them now in Moscow people would speak a Turkic language and pray to Allah bowing to Holy Mecca.


The Mongols and Turkish tribes were a major problem for Russia from the time of the first Mongol invasion in 1223 until the defeat of the Crimean Khanate in 1778, and it greatly hindered the economic and social development of Russia. Moscow was sacked many times, with the two most destructive raids happening in 1382 (resulting in Moscovy being a vassal of the Golden Horde until 1480) and the attack by the Crimean Khanate in 1571. The Mongols and Tatars raided as far north as the Novgorad territories and as far west as Poland and Hungary.

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## Aberdeen

> Most of medieval Hungarian cathedrals and palaces were destroyed during the Ottoman wars. But a few of them survived these times.Hungary and Poland were the easternmost bastillon of The Western civilization against Muslims and Orthodox East.
> *
> 
> Medieval Hungarian High Culture (palaces churches, paintings, sculpture, music and fine-arts) Short 5min video, watch it in full HD !*


Hungary is and always has been quite a backward place, except for the period when it was part of the Austrian empire. To speak of painted savages in mud huts as "high culture" is a bit much.

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## Garrick

[QUOTE=Stears555;440563]Most of medieval Hungarian cathedrals and palaces were destroyed during the Ottoman wars. [/QUOTE]

Hungary and Serbia had very good relations in Middle age, including kinship of Royal families:
http://books.google.rs/books?id=Y0NB...20ages&f=false

In the time of Ottoman Empire, Serbs were among defenders of Hungary and Austria:

“The Hungarian kings encouraged the immigration of Serbs to the kingdom, and hired many of them as soldiers and border guards.”

“European powers, and Austria in particular, fought many wars against the Ottoman Empire, relying on the help of the Serbs that lived under Ottoman rule. During the Austrian–Turkish War (1593–1606), in 1594, the Serbs staged an uprising in Banat, the Pannonian part of Turkey. Sultan Murad III retaliated by burning the remains of Saint Sava the most sacred saint of all Serbs. Serbs created another center of resistance in Herzegovina, but when peace was signed by Turkey and Austria, they were abandoned to Turkish vengeance.

“The Great War between Ottomans and the Holy League took place from 1683 to 1699. The Holy League was created with the sponsorship of the Pope and including Austria, Poland and Venice. These three powers incited the Serbs to rebel against the Ottoman authorities, and soon uprisings and guerrilla warfare spread throughout the western Balkans, ranging from Montenegro and the Dalmatian coast to the Danube basin and Old Serbia (Macedonia, Raška, Kosovo and Metohija).”

Etc.
...
Balkan nations, especially Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs, had hard time five centuries under Ottoman Empire, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

Prior to Ottoman conquest, Balkan regions were developed as other European regions, but under Ottoman rule these regions enormous lagged. ...

Hungarian king Louis I of Hungary, who ruled 1342-1382, had idea to unite Balkan nations, Serbs, Bosnians, Bulgarians and Wallachians against Ottomans.

He wanted that they convert to Roman Catholicism and make a united front against Muslim inviders.

But Ottomans were penetrated rapidly and they were numerous superior against defender militaries.

Serbs lost two key battles, battle of Marica, 1371 and battle of Kosovo, 1389.
And other nations lost their battles, Balkans became territory of Ottoman Empire.
...
And Hungarians lost battles, and part of Hungary were Ottoman territory, but much time shorter than Balkan.
Possible it is reason why ISIS included Hungary (as Slovakia and Austria) in Caliphate, the part of Caliphate called Orobpa).

You can see this map in Internet, and in forum you would be find it in related threads.

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## Stears555

[QUOTE=Garrick;440580]


> Most of medieval Hungarian cathedrals and palaces were destroyed during the Ottoman wars. [/QUOTE]
> 
> Hungary and Serbia had very good relations in Middle age, including kinship of Royal families:
> http://books.google.rs/books?id=Y0NB...20ages&f=false
> 
> In the time of Ottoman Empire, Serbs were among defenders of Hungary and Austria:
> 
> “The Hungarian kings encouraged the immigration of Serbs to the kingdom, and hired many of them as soldiers and border guards.”
> 
> ...


The ratios of attackers (enemies) and defenders are the important. There were much more enemy from orthodox countries than supporter. Forexample, immigrant serbs of Voivodine (Kingdom of Hungary ) were pro-hungarian, but the vast majority of serbs (who didn't live in Voivodina) were anti-Hungarian during the Ottoman wars. Most Orthodox serbs hated more the western christians, than the ottomans.

The cultural economical legal infrastructural development of orthodox balkan slavs was always very slow before the Otoman conquest , due to the wide spread late-nomadism (high ratio of mountain shepherds) in their societies.
Turks were unable to conquer whole Hungary, because -unlike the poor and backward balkanite slavs- we had the money to build up the castle and fortification systems.
It is no wonder, that in Hungarian language, the Balkan world meaned "GHETTO" too , before the adoptation of ghetto word in the early 20th century.

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## Stears555

> Hungary is and always has been quite a backward place, except for the period when it was part of the Austrian empire. To speak of painted savages in mud huts as "high culture" is a bit much.


Just read some books about Hungarian history. Hungary's golden age (political military and economic ) was the medieval age, when the Habsburgs did not ruled Hungary.

Austria and Hungary have always been separate states, so Austrians did not developed Hungary.


*The status of Kingdom of Hungary before the revolution* Hungary was a regnum independens, a separate Monarchy as Article X of 1790 stipulated.[1] According to the Constitutional law and public law, the Empire of Austria had never lawfully included the Kingdom of Hungary.[2] After the cessation of the Holy Roman Empire (of which the Kingdom of Hungary had not been part), the new title of the Habsburg rulers - Emperor of Austria - did not in any sense affect the laws and the constitution of Hungary according to the Hungarian Diet and the proclamation of Francis I in a rescript,[3] thus the country was part of the other Lands of the empire largely through the common monarch.[1]

The administration and government of the Kingdom of Hungary were not united with the common administrative and governmental structure of the Austrian Empire. The central governmental structures remained well separated from the imperial government, and they were linked largely by the person of the common monarch. The country was governed by the Council of Lieutenancy of Hungary (the Gubernium) - located in Pressburg (Pozsony, now Bratislava) and later in Pest - and by the Hungarian Royal Court Chancellery in Vienna.[4]
The Empire of Austria and Kingdom of Hungary had always maintained separate parliaments. (See: Imperial Council (Austria) and Diet of Hungary.) Legally, except for the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713, common laws never existed in the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary.
Since the beginnings of the personal union (from 1527), the government of Kingdom of Hungary could preserve its separate and independent budget. After the revolution of 1848-1849, the Hungarian budget was amalgamated with the Austrian, and it was only after the Compromise of 1867 that Hungary received a separate budget.[5] From 1527 (the creation of the monarchic personal union) to 1851, the Kingdom of Hungary maintained its own customs borders which separated it from the other parts of the Habsburg-ruled territories.[6] Since 1867, the Austrian and Hungarian customs union agreement had to be renegotiated and stipulated every ten years. The agreements were renewed and signed by Vienna and Budapest at the end of every decade because both countries hoped to derive mutual economic benefit by the customs union. The Austrian Empire and Kingdom of Hungary contracted their foreign commercial treaties independently of each other.[7]

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## joeyc

> The Mongols and Turkish tribes were a major problem for Russia from the time of the first Mongol invasion in 1223 until the defeat of the Crimean Khanate in 1778, and it greatly hindered the economic and social development of Russia. Moscow was sacked many times, with the two most destructive raids happening in 1382 (resulting in Moscovy being a vassal of the Golden Horde until 1480) and the attack by the Crimean Khanate in 1571. The Mongols and Tatars raided as far north as the Novgorad territories and as far west as Poland and Hungary.


The number of mongol raids against Moscow and the northern Russian cities can be counted on one hand during that 5 centuries long period. Cities along the Baltic shore, like Pskov, Novgorod,... were never touched.

The center of the Russian civilization was in the North, right next Baltic and Finnic tribes. Ukraine in Russian means borderlands and like most of Southern Russia, it was occupied by various Turkic Mongolian tribes. Most of them were eliminated by the mongols. Tamerlan destroyed the Golden Horde and various other khanates between Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

Mongols and Tatars were also good in weakining both the Caucasian and Turkish Anatolian kingdoms. Most of Georgia and Circassia lied in ruins after Genghiz Khan and Tamerlan's conquests.

The whole Ottoman army was to be saved by the Venetian fleet and the Serbian army after the defeat against Tamerlan. The Mongols destroyed both the Seljuks and the various Islamic kingdoms of Central Asia and Anatolia.

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## Aberdeen

> The number of mongol raids against Moscow and the northern Russian cities can be counted on one hand during that 5 centuries long period. Cities along the Baltic shore, like Pskov, Novgorod,... were never touched.
> 
> The center of the Russian civilization was in the North, right next Baltic and Finnic tribes. Ukraine in Russian means borderlands and like most of Southern Russia, it was occupied by various Turkic Mongolian tribes. Most of them were eliminated by the mongols. Tamerlan destroyed the Golden Horde and various other khanates between Ukraine and Kazakhstan.
> 
> Mongols and Tatars were also good in weakining both the Caucasian and Turkish Anatolian kingdoms. Most of Georgia and Circassia lied in ruins after Genghiz Khan and Tamerlan's conquests.
> 
> The whole Ottoman army was to be saved by the Venetian fleet and the Serbian army after the defeat against Tamerlan. The Mongols destroyed both the Seljuks and the various Islamic kingdoms of Central Asia and Anatolia.


Try reading some actual history books - they'll give you a very different perspective. Although Gengis Khan disliked islam, many of his descendants became moslems and, after conquering the Turks, incorporated them as allies. Russia suffered massively from attacks by Mongol/Turkish armies for centuries and eventually freed itself from the Tatar yoke on its own, with no help from the rest of Europe. That's partly what's at the base of the often paranoid foreign policy views of historical Russia.

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## Aberdeen

> Just read some books about Hungarian history. Hungary's golden age (political military and economic ) was the medieval age, when the Habsburgs did not ruled Hungary.
> 
> Austria and Hungary have always been separate states, so Austrians did not developed Hungary.
> 
> 
> *The status of Kingdom of Hungary before the revolution*
> 
> ----------------------


It wasn't entirely the fault of the Hungarians that their country was so backward during the Middle Ages. The Mongol invasion resulted in widespread destruction and the loss of nearly half the Hungarian population. I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.

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## John Doe

> I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.


Looking at it that way, half of Eurasia was pretty bad at defending itself.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## joeyc

> Try reading some actual history books - they'll give you a very different perspective.


This coming from the same guy who said that Medieval Russia was more advanced than Medieval Western Europe. LMAO!

I say it for the last time: the core of Russia was in the North, between Moscow and the Baltic. Ukraine and most of Southern Russia was a Turkic thing. There were no Slavs there apart for few proto-Ukrainians in the Kiev area. 

Mongols and Tatars killed countless of Muslims in Persia, Russia, Caucasus, Turkey, Levant, Central Asia and India. Various Khanates were fighting each other most of the time, and without them Russia would have never conquered the whole Trans-Caucasus area. I remind you that Georgians invited the Ruskies to repel the endless Turkic Ottoman and Iranian-Azeri raids on Georgia.

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## Stears555

> It wasn't entirely the fault of the Hungarians that their country was so backward during the Middle Ages. The Mongol invasion resulted in widespread destruction and the loss of nearly half the Hungarian population. I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.


I don't think that most of western Europe was more advanced than Medieval Hungary. Northern Italy and Southern Germany were richer, but other medieval western territories are strongly debatable. I'm not sure medieval France as an average entity was richer ,or eastern part of germany or the skandinavian states (the most backward region of Europe until the 19th century), Spain was also poorer , and southern Italy was not richer than late medieval Hungary. The inland revenues of these kingdoms were and areas were lower than the annual inland revenues of Hungarian monarchs. Even their royal palaces were less luxorious and less gorgeius than the Hungarian. 



The mongol invasion was not serious shock for Hungary. 1/3 part of the population was exterminated in the alföld region (which is traditionally the most poor parts of the kingdom) We are not balkanites, who blame the Ottomans for their economic societal infrastructural problems. There are a lot of example, a lot of country which economically emerged from the zero in relative very short time period.

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## Stears555

> It wasn't entirely the fault of the Hungarians that their country was so backward during the Middle Ages. The Mongol invasion resulted in widespread destruction and the loss of nearly half the Hungarian population. I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.


Medieval Hungary was a great power, wheater you like it or not. We were able to defeat Holy Roman Emperors, Byzantine Emperors many times. We were able to transform the backward and poor WOG balkan states as our vassal states and dependencies. We built up larger armies in the era of the Crusades of the Holy land (See Fifth Crusade) than the English or French Monarchs. And medieval Hungarian gold mines produced the 2/3 gold production of Europe, and 1/3 part of the word gold production.


Florins minted, from 1325, in a newly established mint in Körmöcbánya became soon the popular international means of payment throughout Europe. The reform of the currency and of the whole fiscal system greatly contributed to enrich the treasury. The gold production of mines reached the figure of 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of gold annually.[61] This was one third of the known worlds total production and five times as much as that of any other European state.[61][62]

Forxample: King Béla III was also one of the most wealthy monarchs of Europe of his age: his annual revenue was the equivalent of 23 tonnes of pure silver. This exceeded the income of the French king (estimated at 17 tonnes) and was double the receipts of the English Crown.[137]

Deal with the historic reality.

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## Stears555

HEre start the great power:

Lands ruled by Louis the Great of Hungary in the 1370s

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## Stears555



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## Sile

Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismu..._Roman_Emperor

although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands

Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time

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## Stears555

> Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismu..._Roman_Emperor
> 
> although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands
> 
> Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time



Hungary was not part of HRE, king Sigismund got money from some Hungarian barons to bribe the German electoral princes :)) That's all.

The only medieval country was Hungary which was forced Venice to affirm vassallage. Venetian Republic became vassal of Louis the Great of Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary

Wars with Venice and Naples

Main articles: Neapolitan campaigns of Louis the Great, Treaty of Zadar and Peace of Turin

 Louis in Zadar. Contemporary embossment.



In 1345, Louis decided to capture the city of Zadar, on the Dalmatian coast. His soldiers however, refused to take the field, since some Hungarian leaders had been corrupted by Venice before the battle.

In the spring of 1346, the Hungarian King arrived with his vast Royal Army of 100,000 men, of whom more than 30,000 were horsemen and men-at-arms and 10,000 were soldiers under Stephen II. The Venetians had attempted to bribe several Hungarian generals, including the Bosnian Ban, who gave away the positions of Hungarian troops. On 1 July 1346, a fierce clash followed, which the Hungarian side eventually won only due to its numerical superiority, leaving some 7,000 casualties on the field. Zadar remained in Venetian hands.
 Fonthill vase is the earliest Chinese porcelain object to have reached Europe. It was a Chinese gift for Louis the great.


The mother Queen Elisabeth went to papal residence in Rome, and she spent five tons of gold from her own revenues, in bribes and for propaganda to achieve the marriage between his younger son Andrew, Duke of Calabria and queen Joan I of Naples.[20] Louis embarked on an expedition against Naples in revenge of the murder of his younger brother Andrew, husband of Joan I of Naples. The circumstances of his death – in a palace conspiracy – suggested the involvement of the Napolitan queen. The news of Prince Andrew's murder created great consternation throughout Europe and especially in Hungary. Since the Pope had failed to bring the guilty to justice, King Louis declared war on Naples and personally led his troops into Italy. Louis entered Italy on 3 November 1347 and, after obtaining the support of many local princes, he entered Benevento early in 1348, much to the applause of the Neapolitan baronage. Louis defeated his enemies in Battle of Capua. Many of the conspirators escaped, but King Louis captured Charles of Durazzo and ordered his execution. However, he was proved to be innocent, and Louis subsequently lost much of his popularity in Italy. He also did not trust the locals who originally supported Andrew’s cause, and they became hostile to him. On 15 January, Queen Joan fled Naples by ship to Provence, soon to be followed by her second husband, Louis of Taranto. Having established himself in Naples with little difficulty, Louis was nevertheless forced to withdraw quickly by the arrival of the Black Death. In his rush to leave ravaged Italy, he appointed two Hungarian officials to hold the regency. They soon lost the support of the local barons and opened the way for the return of Joan and her husband.
Two years later, early in 1350, King Louis landed at Manfredonia. After serials of successful battles, city and castle sieges, he was again able to control the Kingdom of Naples and its capital city. On this Neapolitan journey, Louis the Great carried gold coins equal to Hungary's six, and Europe's two years, of total gold production, with countless silver pieces piled atop them.[16][_dead link_] However, the Kingdom of Naples was namely a vassal state of the Papacy, and the Hungarian-Neapolitan union would have harmed papal interest. Louis could not become the legal king of Naples without the assent of Pope Clement VI; therefore he soon called off the campaign at the insistence of his exhausted troops and renounced all claims on the Neapolitan crown. Before leaving Italy, he had the papal curia of Avignon begin an inquest into the murder of Andrew, but the papal court found Joan innocent, largely for political reasons, as Joan agreed to ceded her temporal rights over the city of Avignon to the papacy. The conflict with Naples was finally settled in 1381, one year before Louis’ death. Pope Urban VI stripped the royal title from Joan and authorized king Louis to execute his decision. He was too ill to go personally, but his nephew, Charles of Durazzo, with the help of Hungarian gold and troops, seized the throne and killed Joan, who was smothered with pillows, in revenge for the method of Andrew's assassination.[21]
From 1357 to 1358, Louis waged a new war against Venice for the rule of Dalmatia. After successfully organising an anti-Venetian league, Louis put the cities of Dalmatia to fire and the sword, expelling all the Venetians. By the Treaty of Zara (1358), all of Louis's demands over the Adriatic region were recognized. He immediately built up an Adriatic fleet. After the third Venetian war (1372–1381) Venice had to pay annual tribute to Louis (Peace of Turin, 1381). The Venetians also had to raise the Capetian-Angevin flag on St. Mark's Square on holy days. In 1381 Louis obtained from the Republic of Venice the relics of St. Paul the Hermit, which were taken with great ecclesiastical pomp to the Pauline monastery near Buda.[22]

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## Stears555

> Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismu..._Roman_Emperor
> 
> although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands
> 
> Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time


Austria was a little weak princedom before Battle of Mohács. Around 1500AD it had only 1 million population, with 200,000 gold inland revenue (in a good year) Matthias Corvinus' inland revenues reached 1 000 000 in a good year, and itself Kingdom of Hungary with croatia had 5M population. Medieval Hungary and Autrian duchy were simply a very different category.

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## Stears555

My new thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-Great-Powers

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## Garrick

> The ratios of attackers (enemies) and defenders are the important. There were much more enemy from orthodox countries than supporter. Forexample, immigrant serbs of Voivodine (Kingdom of Hungary ) were pro-hungarian, but the vast majority of serbs (who didn't live in Voivodina) were anti-Hungarian during the Ottoman wars. Most Orthodox serbs hated more the western christians, than the ottomans.


I don't agree with you. Can you imagine life of ordinary people, non-Muslims, anyway Orthodox or Catholics, etc. under Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

Ottoman soldiers at any time could get in non-Muslim village to pick up as tax for non-Muslims (jiyzja) all the people have, left them without chance that people survive in hunger and poverty. Ottoman soldiers at any time could kidnapped young male non-Muslim children earmarking them to become janissaries. Ottoman soldiers at any time could rapped young girls and kidnapped and take as slaves. Etc... and even worse.

About what anti-Hungarian temper someone can speak. Every day people are struggling to survive in the harsh conditions.

Some landlords accustomed to the good life could not handle the difficult living conditions and convert to Islam.

And Hungarians converted to Islam, but in smaller numbers, because Ottoman empire was shorter retained Hungarian regions.

People from Serbia, you can read historic books, especially Austrian, were Austrian and Hungarian allies for centuries, in parts thanks to Serbs, Hungarian areas were shorter under Ottomans.

Can you imagine what would happen that Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs massively convert to Islam, as some other nations did.

Probably about half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate, always keep in mind that Balkan Christian nations paralyzed Ottoman advancement to a certain extent, and therefore submitted immense suffering and sacrifice.

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## Stears555

> I don't agree with you. Can you imagine life of ordinary people, non-Muslims, anyway Orthodox or Catholics, etc. under Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.
> 
> Ottoman soldiers at any time could get in non-Muslim village to pick up as tax for non-Muslims (jiyzja) all the people have, left them without chance that people survive in hunger and poverty. Ottoman soldiers at any time could kidnapped young male non-Muslim children earmarking them to become janissaries. Ottoman soldiers at any time could rapped young girls and kidnapped and take as slaves. Etc... and even worse.
> 
> About what anti-Hungarian temper someone can speak. Every day people are struggling to survive in the harsh conditions.
> 
> Some landlords accustomed to the good life could not handle the difficult living conditions and convert to Islam.
> 
> And Hungarians converted to Islam, but in smaller numbers, because Ottoman empire was shorter retained Hungarian regions.
> ...


I don't think that many hungarians lived in the Ottoman occupied parts of Hungary after the 1570s. Most of them migrated to North and East parts of the kingdom, where the Ottomans did not controll the territories. As I said, Southern slavs were the guards of the occupied castles. Large Balkan population arrived to the territory of present-day Hungary, they were more reliable for Ottomans, than the Hungarians who rebelled their power. After the Great Turkish wars, Christian forces repelled the Serbs and balkantite population from Hungary. Without that repell, there would be a greater Serbia, whose borders can reach Upper Hungary (present -day slovakia).

"half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate" Wrong. They were able to conquer only 1/3 part of Hungary. After the death of Matthias Corvinus, Ottomans used the political chaos and anarchy of Hungary to the maximum. Hungary had the technology and castle-systems which stopped the Ottomans.

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## Garrick

> I don't think that many hungarians lived in the Ottoman occupied parts of Hungary after the 1570s. Most of them migrated to North and East parts of the kingdom, where the Ottomans did not controll the territories. As I said, Southern slavs were the guards of the occupied castles. Large Balkan population arrived to the territory of present-day Hungary, they were more reliable for Ottomans, than the Hungarians who rebelled their power. After the Great Turkish wars, Christian forces repelled the Serbs and balkantite population from Hungary. Without that repell, there would be a greater Serbia, whose borders can reach Upper Hungary (present -day slovakia).
> 
> "half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate" Wrong. They were able to conquer only 1/3 part of Hungary. After the death of Matthias Corvinus, Ottomans used the political chaos and anarchy of Hungary to the maximum. Hungary had the technology and castle-systems which stopped the Ottomans.


Historical evidence is that Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies for centuries. And they had big sacrifice and suffering due it. Can you imagine what a horrible Ottoman revenge after Austrian/Hungarian defeat and withdrawal in territories in which Serbs lived and fought for Austrians and Hungarians against Ottomans.

You can see a lot of battles and wars for centuries where Serbs were on the side of Austria and Hungary against Ottoman Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Serbia

...
By the way, Hungarians and Serbs have very good relations for centuries, and before the Ottomans Hungarian and Serbian rulers had blood ties.

...
Hungary today is a modern, beautiful, developed Central European country, and the capital Budapest is among the most attractive in Central Europe. I hope that will be built high speed train Budapest Belgrade, which will contribute better traffic connection between our two countries, and the people of Serbia will go to Hungary more frequent because they have a lot to see, and be nice to spend.

Why I write this, because success of Western Europe was partly based on a much better traffic connectivity and communications that is lacking eastern and southern regions. With better traffic would be enabled better communication and we could understand better each other. Can you imagine modern speed train from Germany to Greece, over Hungary and Serbia. Extraordinary.

----------


## Aberdeen

> This coming from the same guy who said that Medieval Russia was more advanced than Medieval Western Europe. LMAO!
> 
> I say it for the last time: the core of Russia was in the North, between Moscow and the Baltic. Ukraine and most of Southern Russia was a Turkic thing. There were no Slavs there apart for few proto-Ukrainians in the Kiev area. 
> 
> Mongols and Tatars killed countless of Muslims in Persia, Russia, Caucasus, Turkey, Levant, Central Asia and India. Various Khanates were fighting each other most of the time, and without them Russia would have never conquered the whole Trans-Caucasus area. I remind you that Georgians invited the Ruskies to repel the endless Turkic Ottoman and Iranian-Azeri raids on Georgia.


You seem to be living in just as much of a fantasy world as your buddy. You can't just invent history and expect anyone to take you seriously. Bye.

And if anyone wants to actually understand why Kievian Rus was the centre of Russia prior to the Mongol invasions, I'd recommend "Medieval Russia" by Janet Martin.

----------


## Sile

> Hungary was not part of HRE, king Sigismund got money from some Hungarian barons to bribe the German electoral princes :)) That's all.
> 
> The only medieval country was Hungary which was forced Venice to affirm vassallage. Venetian Republic became vassal of Louis the Great of Hungary.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary
> 
> Wars with Venice and Naples
> 
> Main articles: Neapolitan campaigns of Louis the Great, Treaty of Zadar and Peace of Turin
> ...


Since Venice owned Dalmatia prior to the year 1000 the issue was hungary wanted these lands so an on-off war of 400 years resulted

1105
Siege of Zara and occupation of Dalmatia
 Kingdom of Hungary
Dalmatian cities
Venice
Hungarian victory



1115–1119
Hungarian – Venetian wars
 Republic of Venice
 Kingdom of Hungary
Hungarian defeat



1124–1125
Hungarian – Venetian war
 Kingdom of Hungary
 Republic of Venice
Hungarian defeat



1202
Siege of Zara
soldiers of the fourth crusade
 Republic of Venice
 Kingdom of Hungary
Hungarian defeat



1243
Siege of Zara
 Republic of Venice
 Kingdom of Hungary
Hungarian defeat



1345–1358
Hungarian–Venetian War
 Kingdom of Hungary
Republic of Venice
Treaty of Zadar



1411–1433
Hungarian–Venetian War
Republic of Venice
 Kingdom of Hungary
 Milan
Dalmatia became part of Venice




same war as above 1411-1422 Hungarian-Venetian wars ...........Friuli became part of Venetian republic

clearly Hungary was a powerful state, but its downfall was not the Ottoman or Venetian or any other wars , but the inability to stop the bavarians to create the state of Austria in 998AD.

----------


## Garrick

> The Orthodoxy in every country remained on the level of its surroundings due to its rigid isolation.





> The cultural economical legal infrastructural development of orthodox balkan slavs was always very slow before the Otoman conquest , due to the wide spread late-nomadism (high ratio of mountain shepherds) in their societies.


Do you really believe that Orthodox Balkan and Asia minor countries were retarded before Ottoman invasion?

...

For example: Constantinople, and Novo Brdo.


Constantinople was considered to be the most wealthiest and greatest city in Europe and beyond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

Do you really think that people of that time could create such impressive city if they were "primitive".

These regions were much more developed both materially and culturally than you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Brdo_Fortress
In Novo Brdo (Serbia) and other towns in Serbia and Bulgaria Saxon miners (Upper Harz and Westphalia etc.) came to work as foreign workers.
And in medieval times people went to foreign countries as workforce.

Interestingly, one Serb with I1 haplogroup found that his origin is from German Saxons.
...
Balkan Orthodox areas before Ottoman invasion were developed as other areas in Europe, the story that they was retarded is just stereotype, and nothing more.

----------


## Stears555

> Since Venice owned Dalmatia prior to the year 1000 the issue was hungary wanted these lands so an on-off war of 400 years resulted
> 
> 1105
> Siege of Zara and occupation of Dalmatia
>  Kingdom of Hungary
> Dalmatian cities
> Venice
> Hungarian victory
> 
> ...


How many was entirelly Venetian Hungarian wars? When Venetians did not asked foreign (Ottoman, or German) help? How many was real Hungarian war (ie: Not only Croatian southern Hungarian forces were enganged but the full Hungarian royal army? Venite became vassal of Louis the great at the end of the game. Hungarian forces captured half of Italy, the great Northern cities celebrated Louis as their own hero.



You forget to mention that King Ladislaus and Coloman captured Dalmatia . King Béla II defeated the venetians again, and recaptured dalmatia. Bela III also expelled the venetians and captured dalmatia. 

Can you prove that Austria was a signifficant state before battle of Mohács? Its population was tiny 1 million in 1500 AD. Its inland revenues were very low.

----------


## Stears555

> Do you really believe that Orthodox Balkan and Asia minor countries were retarded before Ottoman invasion?
> 
> ...
> 
> For example: Constantinople, and Novo Brdo.
> 
> 
> Constantinople was considered to be the most wealthiest and greatest city in Europe and beyond.
> 
> ...


You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.

Many British and French miners worked in african mines during the colonial times, but it did not mean that africa was more developed than France and Britain in the 19th century. The material culture and technology of slavic balkan states in the 13th century was similar to the early medieval western European level. Very primitive. What will be your next weird fairy tale? Was africa more developed than its European colonizers? :))))

----------


## Garrick

> You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.
> 
> Many British and French miners worked in african mines during the colonial times, but it did not mean that africa was more developed than France and Britain in the 19th century. The material culture and technology of slavic balkan states in the 13th century was similar to the early medieval western European level. Very primitive. What will be your next weird fairy tale? Was africa more developed than its European colonizers? :))))


Who talk about 19. century?

In Europe in 1000 year Gross domestic product per capita was about $400, northern and south areas were similar.

In China then GDP per capita was higher (about $450).

About 1000 years (from 400 to 1400) GDP per capita in China was higher than in Europe.

Formal split between Roman Catholic and Orthodox church was 1054 due to political reasons.

Western Europe begin to grow after 1300, Balkans and Asia minor lagg due to Ottoman occupation.

And you didn't answer about #53.

----------


## Sile

> How many was entirelly Venetian Hungarian wars? When Venetians did not asked foreign (Ottoman, or German) help? How many was real Hungarian war (ie: Not only Croatian southern Hungarian forces were enganged but the full Hungarian royal army? Venite became vassal of Louis the great at the end of the game. Hungarian forces captured half of Italy, the great Northern cities celebrated Louis as their own hero.
> 
> 
> 
> You forget to mention that King Ladislaus and Coloman captured Dalmatia . King Béla II defeated the venetians again, and recaptured dalmatia. Bela III also expelled the venetians and captured dalmatia. 
> 
> Can you prove that Austria was a signifficant state before battle of Mohács? Its population was tiny 1 million in 1500 AD. Its inland revenues were very low.


i can only find this
*The fleet of Venice, commanded by Doge Ordelafo Faliero, invaded Dalmatia in August 1115.[116][117] The Venetians occupied the Dalmatian islands and some of the coastal cities but could not take Zadar and Biograd na Moru.[116] By that time, Coloman was gravely ill.[118] The symptoms recorded in the Illuminated Chronicle indicate a serious otitis, which caused encephalitis.[111] Before his death, he "instructed his son and his great men that after his death they should take vengeance on Russia for the injury done to him"[119] during his campaign of 1099.[118] Upon his councillor's advice, he also had Álmos, who had taken refuge in the monastery of Dömös, imprisoned.[120]* 

Let me know which armies never hired any mercenaries from other states..............the answer would be none


this italian was hungary's best general at the time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipo_of_Ozora

----------


## Aberdeen

Byzantine architecture made great stylistic and technical advances over Roman architecture and greatly influenced Medieval and Renaissance architecture in the west and Ottoman architecture in the east. The church of Hagia Sophia, which is now a museum, remains one of the greatest architectural gems of the world. Anyone who isn't aware of this probably shouldn't try to discuss the differences between Catholic and Orthodox culture.

----------


## Yetos

> You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.
> 
> Many British and French miners worked in african mines during the colonial times, but it did not mean that africa was more developed than France and Britain in the 19th century. The material culture and technology of slavic balkan states in the 13th century was similar to the early medieval western European level. Very primitive. What will be your next weird fairy tale? Was africa more developed than its European colonizers? :))))


hmm.

I really do not understand you.

First which West architecture?

as engineer I give you 2 temples,

St Marco in Venice 
Notre Dame in Paris,

what common have except they are temples?
what West architecture?
there are 3 major tottaly different Architectonical styles in the West.

so be more specific, 

the Gothic style with nose roofs,
the Italian style like St Marco and St Peter pre or close to baroque,
the far North West style with wood and iron like net or nerves as in Notre dame paris
etc etc 

I link photos to understand the diferences

http://www.sights-and-culture.com/Lo...Abbey-4141.jpg

http://www.blugoldmarchingband.com/i...nice_12561.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/3907183.jpg


now lets see the byzantine style

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IRDXD-2K_Y...giasophia2.jpg

http://static3.depositphotos.com/100...-in-Fodele.jpg

some slavic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rov_Church.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False..._cathedral.jpg


as you see the architecture of temples is not divided in Catholic and orthodox,
but in style, materials, and the engineering methods,

except the common basilica, which is based upon Roman court buildings,
all the rest are according different criteria, mainly based in geographical area, 
and not in believes.

----------


## Stears555

> Who talk about 19. century?
> 
> In Europe in 1000 year Gross domestic product per capita was about $400, northern and south areas were similar.
> 
> In China then GDP per capita was higher (about $450).
> 
> About 1000 years (from 400 to 1400) GDP per capita in China was higher than in Europe.
> 
> Formal split between Roman Catholic and Orthodox church was 1054 due to political reasons.
> ...


Wrong. Decline of Byzantine Empire started in the 11th century. Even various mountain turkic hordes were able to defeat them. Economy of Byzantines totally collapsed after they exterminated the latinus minority population of the city.

Western European economy did not grow signifficantly due to the 100 years of war. 14th century was the century of wars, there were no such a century in medieval era, when such a great numbers of battles and wars started.

You can not prove the high development of balkan slav states, because they were african level of development. Majority of their society was shepherd nomad, their countries were wooden countries, where wooden palaces and wooden churches represented the country. Very few stone buildings existed in the slavic balkan.

----------


## Stears555

> hmm.
> 
> I really do not understand you.
> 
> First which West architecture?
> 
> as engineer I give you 2 temples,
> 
> St Marco in Venice 
> ...


Face with the reality:
Romanesque style Gothic Style and Renaissance architecture are Western. Byzantine Empire (and its post-classic primitive ugly architecture had no impact in these styles)
Byzantine style is closer to the midle easters styles than to the Western.

The russian medieval churches (little hovel like buildings) are more similar to mosques than to the Western architecture.

----------


## Stears555

> Byzantine architecture made great stylistic and technical advances over Roman architecture and greatly influenced Medieval and Renaissance architecture in the west and Ottoman architecture in the east. The church of Hagia Sophia, which is now a museum, remains one of the greatest architectural gems of the world. Anyone who isn't aware of this probably shouldn't try to discuss the differences between Catholic and Orthodox culture.


Only in your fantasy. read my previous post.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Only in your fantasy. read my previous post.


If you have no understanding of the subjects you're trying to discuss and don't want to learn from the things that various people are explaining to you, I think you belong on my "ignore" list.

----------


## Stears555

> If you have no understanding of the subjects you're trying to discuss and don't want to learn from the thins that various people are explaining to you, I think you belong on my "ignore" list.


As I see Balkanic people try to rewrite the history without any proofs.

----------


## Stears555

Byzantine architecture had no impact on renaissance architecture. Why? Because Renaissance idolised the classic era Roman buildings of Italian peninsula, which was not corrupted by asian (persian and arabic) influences.

----------


## John Doe

> You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.


It's all relative.

----------


## Stears555

> It's all relative.


 if you are a blind man it is true.

----------


## John Doe

> if you are a blind man it is true.


No, I'm serious, while it's obvious that 6th century Constantinople was not the marble city that was 1st century Rome, in comparison to other 6th century cities in Europe at the time (such as Paris or Trier), Constantinople was advanced, therefore it's all relative. Also if you compare it to other cities in west Eurasia at the time (such as Babylon or Jerusalem) it was quite advanced.

----------


## Stears555

> No, I'm serious, while it's obvious that 6th century Constantinople was not the marble city that was 1st century Rome, in comparison to other 6th century cities in Europe at the time (such as Paris or Trier), Constantinople was advanced, therefore it's all relative. Also if you compare it to other cities in west Eurasia at the time (such as Babylon or Jerusalem) it was quite advanced.


Compare it with the mid 15th century italian and holland cities. But what about the primitive african-level medieval balkan slavic states?

----------


## John Doe

> Compare it with the mid 15th century italian and holland cities. But what about the primitive african-level medieval balkan slavic states?


Are you suggesting that 6th century Constantinople can be compared with 15th century Florence and Amsterdam? By the early 15th century the Ottomans have surrounded Constantinople, which was holding only thanks to its walls, but its golden age was long gone, partially in thanks to the 1204 sack of Constantinople, which wasn't actually the target of the Crusaders at first, and that action only made the Turks stronger. Well I wasn't talking about Balkan Slavic states, I was trying to explain that there was a difference between them and Constantinople. BTW, it's quite ignorant to generalise all of African cities into the "primitive pool", what about bronze age Thebes? Golden age Carthage, or golden age Mali? the last one was literally flowing with gold, and even had a university.


P.S 6th century Constantinople had running water and sewers, something that 15th century Florence and Amsterdam still lacked.

----------


## Stears555

> Are you suggesting that 6th century Constantinople can be compared with 15th century Florence and Amsterdam? By the early 15th century the Ottomans have surrounded Constantinople, which was holding only thanks to its walls, but its golden age was long gone, partially in thanks to the 1204 sack of Constantinople, which wasn't actually the target of the Crusaders at first, and that action only made the Turks stronger. Well I wasn't talking about Balkan Slavic states, I was trying to explain that there was a difference between them and Constantinople. BTW, it's quite ignorant to generalise all of African cities into the "primitive pool", what about bronze age Thebes? Golden age Carthage, or golden age Mali? the last one was literally flowing with gold, and even had a university.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S 6th century Constantinople had running water and sewers, something that 15th century Florence and Amsterdam still lacked.


I suggested that you can compare constantinaples of 1450 with the holland german English Italian cities of 1450. Byzantines were a decline civilization, withut original ideas and innovtion. It caused its tragic fate. It is no wonder: They had very high ratio of non-european origin immigrants and colonist, which were Transported during Alexander the great, during the Roman era and during the Byzantine population policiy. There was very low ratio of ancient Greeks. Constantinaples was the center of an ethnic Mordor.



Medieval shepherd societies of slavic balkan (where the income of the majority came from pastoring) were on african level. There are no churches palaces cities which are comparable to medieval west. There are no material proofs (archelological) that they were economically and culturally much more developed than africa.

----------


## John Doe

> I suggested that you can compare constantinaples of 1450 with the holland german English Italian cities of 1450.


Oh, I see, yeah that's possible.




> Medieval shepherd societies of slavic balkan (where the income of the majority came from pastoring) were on african level. There are no churches palaces cities which are comparable to medieval west. There are no material proofs (archelological) that they were economically and culturally much more developed than africa.


I'm not denying that, what I do have a problem with is taking all of Africa, by just saying Africa and comparing it with the medieval Balkans, because in that sense you can compare ancient Thebes/Carthage/Mali with the medieval Balkans, which is totally inaccurate, now if you want to compare MODERN day places in sub Saharan Africa with the medieval Balkans, that would make more sense.

----------


## Stears555

> Oh, I see, yeah that's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not denying that, what I do have a problem with is taking all of Africa, by just saying Africa and comparing it with the medieval Balkans, because in that sense you can compare ancient Thebes/Carthage/Mali with the medieval Balkans, which is totally inaccurate, now if you want to compare MODERN day places in sub Saharan Africa with the medieval Balkans, that would make more sense.


Which balkanic slavic state or orthodox eastern slavic state was on the development level of medieval Hungary? None. There were massive 300 years of difference between medieval Hungary and them.

----------


## John Doe

> Which balkanic slavic state or orthodox eastern slavic state was on the development level of medieval Hungary? None. There were massive 300 years of difference between medieval Hungary and them.


I'm not denying that, I also wont deny that I'm far from an expert on that subject.

----------


## Garrick

> Wrong. Decline of Byzantine Empire started in the 11th century. Even various mountain turkic hordes were able to defeat them. Economy of Byzantines totally collapsed after they exterminated the latinus minority population of the city.
> 
> Western European economy did not grow signifficantly due to the 100 years of war. 14th century was the century of wars, there were no such a century in medieval era, when such a great numbers of battles and wars started.
> 
> You can not prove the high development of balkan slav states, because they were african level of development. Majority of their society was shepherd nomad, their countries were wooden countries, where wooden palaces and wooden churches represented the country. Very few stone buildings existed in the slavic balkan.


No, you don't read carefully, and you don't use sources.

I was very precise and used renowned author, *Angus Maddison*, you should read his book.

In the end of X century, situation in Europe was, according to Maddison (*Contours of the World economy 1-2030 AD*):

*Gross domestic product per capita* (_1990 International Geary-Khamis dollars_)

*Year: 1000*

$400
United Kingdom
Scandinavian countries
Greece
Balkan and East European countries (including Serbia and Hungary)

$410
Germany and Switzerland

$425
Austria, Belgium, France, Netherlands, Portugal

$450
Spain and Italy

$450
China

You can see only *Spain* and *Italy* were able to compare with *China*, others have lower GDP per capita and were fairy equal.

...
For 500 years after (1500 year) the difference between Western Europe and Balkans and Asia minor are noticeable, of course, Humanism and Renaissance spread of Western Europe but Balkan and Asia minor countries suffer Ottoman occupation.

----------


## Stears555

> No, you don't read carefully, and you don't use sources.
> 
> I was very precise and used renowned author, *Angus Maddison*, you should read his book.
> 
> In the end of X century, situation in Europe was, according to Maddison (*Contours of the World economy 1-2030 AD*):
> 
> *Gross domestic product per capita* (_1990 International Geary-Khamis dollars_)
> 
> *Year: 1000*
> ...


Hungary is not Eastern european country.



Hungary (similar to Poland Czech Rep. Germany Switzerland Poland etc..) is a Central European country, and it is part of western (catholic-protestant) western culture.

See the old Encyclopedia Britannica from 1911:

HUNGARY (Hungarian Magyarorszag), a country in the south-eastern pertion of Central Europe,
http://archive.org/stream/encyclopae...search/hungary



See Modern Britannica:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...276730/Hungary

Hungary, Hungarian Magyarország, landlocked country of central Europe. The capital is Budapest.


German BrockHaus Encyclopedia
http://www.brockhaus.de/.files/pdf/e...ie/BE_Burg.pdf

Columbia Encyclopedia 
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Hungary.aspx


French Larousse Encyclopedia
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/pays/Hongrie/111520


Hungary is Central European: CIA World Factbook 
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/hu.html


Encarta Encyclopedia 
http://web.archive.org/web/200910281...1/Hungary.html

----------


## Stears555

> No, you don't read carefully, and you don't use sources.
> 
> I was very precise and used renowned author, *Angus Maddison*, you should read his book.
> 
> In the end of X century, situation in Europe was, according to Maddison (*Contours of the World economy 1-2030 AD*):
> 
> *Gross domestic product per capita* (_1990 International Geary-Khamis dollars_)
> 
> *Year: 1000*
> ...


The vast majority of serbian population was shepherd, the agriculture was less imortant in slavic balkan. That's why cultural and infrastructural and societal development were so slow and backward in the slavic balkan. The bartel-trade was the dominant in slavic balkan until the late 18th century.

----------


## Garrick

> Hungary is not Eastern european country.
> 
> 
> 
> Hungary (similar to Poland Czech Rep. Germany Switzerland Poland etc..) is a Central European country, and it is part of western (catholic-protestant) western culture.
> 
> See the old Encyclopedia Britannica from 1911:
> 
> HUNGARY (Hungarian Magyarorszag), a country in the south-eastern pertion of Central Europe,
> ...


You don't read carefully.

Renowned scientist Maddison put Hungary in East European countries (I just took from his book), yes it is Central European country, but it doesn't matter for this discussion.

What is important is:

*Hungarian GDP per capita in 1000 year, is $400, as in Balkan and East European countries, Greece, United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries.*

If you think that Hungary had higher GDP per capita in 1000 year comparing with Greece, Balkan and East European countries, United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries, you think mistakenly.

Of course, you can try to do your research and confute Maddison, but it must be serious scientific paper.

----------


## Garrick

> The vast majority of serbian population was shepherd, the agriculture was less imortant in slavic balkan. That's why cultural and infrastructural and societal development were so slow and backward in the slavic balkan. The bartel-trade was the dominant in slavic balkan until the late 18th century.


You ignore facts, ignore scientists, even compare cities of 15 century as superior with city from VI century, etc. It is not way for discussion. I discuss with you only because I appreciate Hungarians and have good friends, but honestly discussion with you is without purpose.

You can read about Serba in medieval time (before Ottoman occupation):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Middle_Ages

*Medieval Serbia had a high political, economic, and cultural reputation in Europe.*

...
And I will say my opinion:

Bickering between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians is completely unnecessary.

Separation of the church in 1054 had purely political reasons.

Someone who belongs to one of these churches, nor is therefore more capable or smarter, it has nothing to do with it.

----------


## Ike

Does the OP even know the differences between Orthodox and Catholic religion? 
Does he think that all the major differences in the way of life were based on that, or there could be more factors involved?




> The vast majority of serbian population was shepherd, the agriculture was less imortant in slavic balkan. That's why cultural and infrastructural and societal development were so slow and backward in the slavic balkan. The bartel-trade was the dominant in slavic balkan until the late 18th century.


And they were shepherds because they were not Catholic?

----------


## Stears555

> You ignore facts, ignore scientists, even compare cities of 15 century as superior with city from VI century, etc. It is not way for discussion. I discuss with you only because I appreciate Hungarians and have good friends, but honestly discussion with you is without purpose.
> 
> You can read about Serba in medieval time (before Ottoman occupation):
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Middle_Ages
> 
> *Medieval Serbia had a high political, economic, and cultural reputation in Europe.*
> 
> ...
> ...


This scolars give at least 300 dollar for central africa, and neglects the infrastructure. In balkan slavic countries and eastern slavs, there were no medieval urbanization, there were no banking systems, there were no money-based economic (because they were bartel economies until the late 18th century) there were no serious industry (balkanite commoners did not wear textile clothes(!!!), only their nobility, and they had to import textiles) they had no real shoes boots, they wore primitive opanka (prehistoric type of sandal) very few stone buildings existed, their churches were little and howel like, 99% of their churches were wooden. The metallurgy was prmitive (they were not able to made real serious armours , just some primitive forms of them) Were real doors in their houses? Or there were a carpet instead of doors? Did they knew the padlock? Or their higher aristocracy knew it? Their "towns" did not have town walls (or they had paladise walls) only some capital cities had. That's why I said there were at least 300 years difference in development in medieval era..

----------


## Stears555

> Does the OP even know the differences between Orthodox and Catholic religion? 
> Does he think that all the major differences in the way of life were based on that, or there could be more factors involved?
> 
> 
> 
> And they were shepherds because they were not Catholic?


The religion and religious dogmas is not interesting, however the church as an institution and its infrastructure was important, because monks clergy had high impact in early and high medieval era culture technology and knowledge after the roman empire collapsed. The Greek led Orthodox church did not want to develop the orthodox countries to the level of Byzantine Empire, because byzantine orthodox church worked as national church, part of imperial politics, they spread their version of christianity to grow the influence of Byzantine Emperor and Empire. However Catholic church was really international, with international leaders (german french italian english spanish popes), whithout national interest, so they developed and taught the people for modern methods after the dark ages

----------


## Stears555

> You don't read carefully.
> 
> Renowned scientist Maddison put Hungary in East European countries (I just took from his book), yes it is Central European country, but it doesn't matter for this discussion.
> 
> What is important is:
> 
> *Hungarian GDP per capita in 1000 year, is $400, as in Balkan and East European countries, Greece, United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries.*
> 
> If you think that Hungary had higher GDP per capita in 1000 year comparing with Greece, Balkan and East European countries, United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries, you think mistakenly.
> ...


It is important, because Central European term is not just a geographic, but a cultural term, where the Western christian civilization was the dominant.

----------


## Garrick

> This scolars give at least 300 dollar for central africa, and neglects the infrastructure. In balkan slavic countries and eastern slavs, there were no medieval urbanization, there were no banking systems, there were no money-based economic (because they were bartel economies until the late 18th century) there were no serious industry (balkanite commoners did not wear textile clothes(!!!), only their nobility, and they had to import textiles) they had no real shoes boots, they wore primitive opanka (prehistoric type of sandal) very few stone buildings existed, their churches were little and howel like, 99% of their churches were wooden. The metallurgy was prmitive (they were not able to made real serious armours , just some primitive forms of them) Were real doors in their houses? Or there were a carpet instead of doors? Did they knew the padlock? Or their higher aristocracy knew it? Their "towns" did not have town walls (or they had paladise walls) only some capital cities had. That's why I said there were at least 300 years difference in development in medieval era..


Of course, what do you expect in occupied countries 500 years under Ottomans, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

You could see, situation in Balkan counties was similar as in many other countries in Europe, including Hungary, Scandinavian countries, England etc. in 1000 year.

But Balkan countries had very hard times under Ottomans for 500 years, it is difficult and painful fate, full of victims.

Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs etc didn't have fortune with occupiers, what can people do.

You can not choose occupier.

But these people, with difficult fate, were defending Europe, and the further expansion of the Ottomans, and centuries were European allies, among other and Hungarians.

These are historical facts and you can find in the Internet or libraries.

If Balkans was free (wasn't occupied) and experienced humanism and renaissance today Balkan countries would be developed similar other European countries.
...

(Neither the present age is not without pitfalls. ISIS makes new Caliphate, which again including whole Balkans, plus Hungary, Slovakia, Austria etc. Maybe you think that you are more secure than some countries closer to current ISIS territories. But things can quickly change.

You probably didn't think where the weak links from current ISIS territories to Hungary.

Today things are very related.)
...

You failed to mention the fact that Hungarian and Serbian rulers had blood ties (in middle ages before Ottomans).

Do you think this would be possible that the Serbs were subordinated to Hungarians, or inversely, Hungarians subordinated to Serbs.

No, among royal families and nobles get married only equal among equals.

Hungary was Roman Catholic country, Serbia was Orthodox country, and yet, these two countries for centuries had good relations. Today these two countries are in very good relationships, too.

And you know during history Hungary had battles with some other Catholic countries, as Serbia had battles with some other Orthodox countries, this suggests that some other factors affecting.

Both Roman Catholics and Orthodoxes are Christians, every man or woman among them can be good person and good Christian.

Split of church - Roman Catholic and Orthodox, was due to political reasons, if you want about that can be discussed but in a particular topic.

----------


## Stears555

> Of course, what do you expect in occupied countries 500 years under Ottomans, Islamic rule and Sharia law.
> 
> You could see, situation in Balkan counties was similar as in many other countries in Europe, including Hungary, Scandinavian countries, England etc. in 1000 year.
> 
> But Balkan countries had very hard times under Ottomans for 500 years, it is difficult and painful fate, full of victims.
> 
> Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs etc didn't have fortune with occupiers, what can people do.
> 
> You can not choose occupier.
> ...


Wrong. Independent Serbian state was founded in 1217, after the Byzantine power declined. There are very few historical record about the region, due to the late introduction of literacy in Serbia. Read the points in the #1 post of the article, which contain enormous differences. And think it over again. The topic is not about relations between nations or subordinance , it is about civilizations and history.

----------


## Yetos

> The religion and religious dogmas is not interesting, however the church as an institution and its infrastructure was important, because monks clergy had high impact in early and high medieval era culture technology and knowledge after the roman empire collapsed. *The Greek led Orthodox church did not want to develop the orthodox countries to the level of Byzantine Empire,* because byzantine orthodox church worked as national church, part of imperial politics, they spread their version of christianity to grow the influence of Byzantine Emperor and Empire. However Catholic church was really international, with international leaders (german french italian english spanish popes), whithout national interest, so they developed and taught the people for modern methods after the dark ages



*I THINK I HEARD ENOUGH LIES,*

First 
you are not a hungarian, but we all know who you are behind that flag, 
your poison is clear, 
your false statements and view of histpory is obvious,

second
IF YOU ARE A CATHOLIC (I doupt, you seem a muslim to me)
THEN YOU KNEW NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK, AND TRANSLATED IN ARABIAN FIRST, ITALA NEXT,

AFTER THAT THE NEXT TRANSLATION IN EUROPE WAS IN SLAVIC , WHEN CHURCH WAS UNITED, BY PUSHING OF BYZANTINES?
WHY? 
WHY SLAVS HAD BIBLE IN THEIR LANGUAGE 600 YEARS BEFORE GERMANS?
*IF BYZANTINE CHURCH WANTED TO GOVERN THEM? WHY THEY TRANSLATE THE BIBLE TO OCS?*
except if you blind.

THIRD,
if you are a Catholic then you know about 4 Popes or Patriarchs, (it is the same title)
1 Jerusalem
2 Syrria Antiocheia
3 Egypt Alexandreia
4 Italy Rome

then Roman Pope gave title to Nova Roma brother, Patriarch

so 5th Patriarch split from 4rth,

and who are next?
Russian Serbian etc who sprung of 5th not from others?

*IF BYZANTINE CHURCH WANTED SLAVS TO SERVE HER? WHY GAVE THEM THE ULTIMATE TITTLE?*

a new Patriarch is about to open in N America, 
to make a patriarch you need certain numbers, which soon might be reached,

on the other hand mister wise guy, which I think we all know what you are doing,
*tell us if a nation has its own religion a bible in its own language, a liturgy, ceremonial in its own language, and a patriarch, why to be enslaved by another church or nation?
*
So GREEK BYZANTINE CHURCH DID WORK AS YOU SAY, BUT OPOSITE, GAVE WRITTEN, SPOKEN LITURGY, AND THE HIGHEST TITLE To OTHERS,

remember to be a Patriarch need 2 other patriarchs to put their hands,
not the votes of a council only, but the submissions of 2 others Patriarchs!!!! 

now I still wonders why no Pope or Patriarch in America,
why no Pope or Patriarch in Germany?!!! or in Spain? or in Brazil which is 2-3 times Italy?
tell me, when you go to church, the liturgy/ceremony is it in your own language? and since when,
can you answer me that?


PS
according to christians 50 days after ressurection, the 'pupils' spoke in all the known languages,
*not only in Greek or in Latin, but in all,* 

PS2
I am not a christian, I like more the some protestant small village churches, than the collosal fanfaran temples and titles,
but when I hear such statements, I really get upset,
besides, I think I know, and all here know who might post such false and why,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *I THINK I HEARD ENOUGH LIES,*
> 
> First 
> you are not a hungarian, but we all know who you are behind that flag, 
> your poison is clear, 
> your false statements and view of histpory is obvious,
> 
> second
> IF YOU ARE A CATHOLIC (I doupt, you seem a muslim to me)
> ...



The *Hudson Incident* was an incident that gave rise to the foundation of the Albanian Orthodox Mission in America under the leadership of Fan Noli, who later would become the leader of the Orthodox Church of Albania. Eastern Orthodoxes in the United States would usually carry with them their lithurgy and language, however the case of the Albanians was different. *Since they had been prohibited their own language in churches and schools,* they established their first national church in Boston, United States.[1]



*Background*

In 1907, a young Albanian emigrant to the United States, Kristaq Dishnica, died in Hudson, Massachusetts of influenza.[2] * Dishnica was an Albanian patriot, and since the Greek Church had excommunicated him, no Orthodox Church in the area would perform his funeral rites. As Dishnica was laid to rest in a Worcester cemetery without any religious service, the ire of the Albanians in Massachusetts arouse.*

Fan Noli, an Albanian who had emigrated one year earlier to Boston, and who at that time was simply a church cantor,[3] recognized this as an opportunity to serve the spiritual needs of his own community and to champion the cause for religious and political freedom in Albania. Noli was able to garner the support of Archbishop Platon, head of the Russian Orthodox Church in the United States, who ordained him as a priest on March 18, 1908 at the Cathedral of St. Nicholas[_disambiguation needed_] in New York City.[2]

A week later Fan Stylian Noli was appointed administer of the Albanian Orthodox Mission in America, and later elevated to the rank of Mitred Archmandrite.[2]


*Aftermath*

As a result Saint George Albanian Orthodox Church is organized at the Knights of Honor Hall on Tremont Street in Boston. The church later evolved into the Saint George Albanian Orthodox Cathedral, which is also the seat of the Albanian Archdiocese of the Orthodox Church in America.[4]




*Fan S. Noli*









In March 1908, Noli thus led the first time in Albanian the Orthodox liturgy for the Albanian-American community. Noli had prepared his own translation of the liturgy into Albanian, and used it also during a tour several major cities of Europe in 1911. Soon after Albanian independence in 1912, Noli (who in 1924 would also be a political figure and prime minister of Albania), traveled to Albania where he would be ordained a bishop and become the head of the church.

 *We have a long list of albanian orthodox personalities killed by Orthodox Church of Greece and by Patriarchate of Constantinople.*

----------


## King Bardhyl

*Visarion Xhuvani*

Metropolitan *Visarion Xhuvani* (14 December 1890 – 15 December 1965) was the primate of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania from 1929 to 1937. He was a main contributor to the autocephaly, and a close collaborator of Fan Noli.
Xhuvani participated in the Congress of Lushnjë, December 1920, being elected _senator_. He was a member of the Albanian parliament from 1919 to 1924. *During this time he cooperated with Noli, emphasizing the need for an Authocphalus Orthodox hurch in Albania, strongly opposing the Patriarchate of Constantinople attempts to keep the Orthodox community under the Greek influence and prohibit the Albanian language from being used in all ceremonies.* He was a main contributor in the Orthodox Congress of 1922, where the Autocephaly of the Albanian Orthodox Church was proclaimed.

*Xhuvani was elected Primate of OACA in 1929, where King Zog pushed the Autochephaly as a priority of his state.*[3][4] Despite the contradictions, Xhuvani served until 1937, the Church of Constantinople recognized the OACA, adding Xhuvani's removal as an ultimate condition. Xhuvani was forced to resign and was succeeded by Kristofor Kisi. Fan Noli would recall him as one of the most energetic clerics of Albania.[1] Beside Albanian, Xhuvani knew English, German, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Italian, and Old and New Greek languages. He has translated several theological studies into Albanian. He was the promoter of the Kristoforidhi's monument in the main plaza of Elbasan.

During World War II he helped Jewish families by providing fake documents of Albanian nationality and citizenship[5] while serving as Bishop of Berat.


Xhuvani's contribution to the Autocephaly of the Albanian Church was immense. He stands right by Noli on this point of view.
The Autocephalic Orthodox Church was proclaimed in Berat, on September 12, 1922 with four metropolitans, two seminaries, and twenty nine monasteries. It was not recognized by the Patriarchate in Constantinople which continued to insist Greek was used as language of the liturgy. Despite Noli's attempts taking advantage even of his engagement in politics there was no success in consecrating Albanian bishops. Therefore the Albanian Church turned versus the Patriarchate of Peć which agreed to consecrate them instead. Xhuvani was consecrated bishop in Kotor, Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats, and Serbs from Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, residing in Sremski Karlovci.[3] He kept good relations with the Yugoslav church and authorities.[6]
The Patriarch of Constantinople declared that the process was invalid on their point of view.[7] Xhuvani would take over after Noli's exile and continue on the same path with persistence. As a countermeasure to Greek pressure, the Albanians expelled the bishop Hierotheos and imprisoned the other bishop Kristofor in a monastery, both elected from Constantinople. The relations were frozen for some time due to Xhuvani's strong oppositions to granting any requests to the Greek side. He was considered "an obstacle for the agreement" even from the Albanian government. The Churches of Constantinople and the one of Moscow didn't recognize the Autocephaly, while the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Romanian one recognized it in silence.
New negotiations started in 1935, finalizing on 1937 with the recognition of the Autocepalic Church of Albania by Patriarch Benjamin I of Constantinople. The Albanian side proposed Kristofor Kisi while the Greek side proposed Eulogios Kourilas, an Albanian from Ziçisht[3] with a very strong pro-Greek background. The delegation from Albanian government (including Koço Kota and Josif Kedhi) agreed on Kurilla's and Kotokos' presence under Kisi's hierarchy, in contradiction with what Xhuvani insisted. Xhuvani was constrained to resign but continued serving the Orthodox church in Albania.

----------


## King Bardhyl

So the role of *Orthodox Church of Greece and by Patriarchate of Constantinople* has always been negative in Albania's history.




While the *Vatican's* role has always been positive, during the centuries of Turkish occupation and later, giving a extraordinary help to this small country and without an international support.

I can bring so much evidences but i don`t want to go off-topic.

----------


## Yetos

Hahahahaha,

tell me, which church burries ex-comunicated?


AND BECAUSE I TIRED OF YOUR POISON AND STUPIDITY,

*the FIRST WHO DECLARED GREEK REVOLUTION, ALEXANDROS YPSILANTIS 
IS STILL EX_COMMUNICATED BY CON/POLIS PATRIARCHAT AND WAS BURRIED IN AUSTRIA*.




*ΛΑΜΠΡΟΣ ΚΑΤΣΩΝΗΣ* ANOTHER GREEK HERO, WHO IS STILL EX-COMUNICATED FROM ORTHODOX CHURCH




KAZANTZAKIS Νικος A GREEK SCHOLAR, EX-COMUNICATED FROM GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH






*FOR YOUR INFORMATION
MORE THAN 63 GREEK HEROES OF GREEK REVOLT, AND MORE THAN 19 Scholars are still ex-comunicated*.

and you tell us what?

your stupid and nationalistic ideas?
and church is your what your nightmare?
ex-comunication is ex-comunication,
no matter catholic, no matter orthodox, 
ex-comunicated can not be burried in a church/religion holy ground, but in public cemeteries

*the rest are in your head,* 
*it is obvious who did and what did,*
*History has been written, and can not be changed to satisfy you*.

*now if you want to change the laws of religion,*
*GO AND TELL PRIESTS WHY THEY DO NOT WANT SUICIDERS TO HOLY GROUNDS AND WHY SOMETIMES DO NOT DO THE BURRIAL CEREMONY IN PUBLIC GROUNDS*

cause its religion, by suicide you put your shelf in ex-comunication, etc etc

I never like christianity, But I hate liers, for political reasons,
besides the blind it is you, 
search the History of G Maniakis, and G Kastriotis then tell us your story.

----------


## King Bardhyl

Yetos, first don`t make propaganda and don`t go off toppic.
Second i am not interesed about your internal problems.
Third, i repeat:
*We have a long list of albanian orthodox personalities killed by Orthodox Church of Greece and by Patriarchate of Constantinople, especailly teachers of albanian language.

*One example :

*Petro Nini Luarasi*
*Petro Nini Luarasi* (born on April 22, 1864 in Luaras, Kolonjë District, Albania, then Ottoman Empire, and died on 17 August 1911 in Ersekë, Kolonjë District, Albania, then Ottoman Empire) was an Albanian rilindas activist, Christian orthodox priest, teacher and journalist. His father, Nini Petro Kostallari, had also been active in the Albanian National Revival as a publicist and teacher.
Once that he finished the Qestorat seminary school under Koto Hoxhi,[1] he worked as a teacher in the villages of Kolonjë District, where he taught Albanian in disguise and prepared a number of friends as future teachers of Albanian. In 1887-1893 he opened in Ersekë and in some villages of the Kolonjë District Albanian language schools.
Subsequently he emigrated to the United States in the 1904 - 1908 period, where he was an active member of the Albanian National Movement and initiator of the patriotic associations _Motherland Nostalgia_ (Albanian: _Mall i mëmëdheut_) and _The Pellasgian_ (Albanian: _Pellazgu_). Luarasi also worked as a director and teacher of the first Albanian School of the Gjerazi sisters in Korçë and in 1909-1911 he worked as a director of the Negovani school, which had been founded by Papa Kristo Negovani.
He also contributed to the organizations for the Liberation of Albania from the Ottoman Empire.[2][3][4][5][6]
Petro Nini Luarasi was one of the delegates of the Monastir Congress that sanctioned the creation of the Albanian alphabet in 1908. For his patriotic deeds, teaching of the Albanian language and social activism he was persecuted both by the Young Turks and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. He died poisoned by them on 17 August 1911.[3][4][5][6][7]

*Writing Activity*

He collaborated, published and was editor in chief with the following magazines:

_Nations's Union_ (Albanian: _Bashkimi i kombit_) (published in Monastir during the 1909-1910 period), where he was editor-in-chief;_Drita_, (published in Sofia, Bulgaria during the 1907 - 1908 period);_The Nation_, (Albanian: _Kombi_) published in Boston, in 1908;_The Freedom_ (Albanian: _Liria_) published in Thessaloniki during the 1909-1910 period. 
In these journals he published teaching, poetry and publicistic writings. In his political work _Excommunication of the Albanian letters_ (Albanian: _Mallkimi i shkronjave shqipe_) and _The Diffamation of the Albanian_ (Albanian: _Çpërfolja e shqiptarit_) (Manastir, 1911),[8] he protected the rights of the Albanian people to their own national culture. He propagated the main ideas of the Albanian National Revival which were those of uniting the Albanian people in their fight for the freedom of Albania, no matter the religious beliefs.[2]
*Recognition*

Petro Nini Luarasi has been awarded by the Albanian Government the title People's Teacher of Albania. A high school bears his name in Tirana, Albania.[9] On 13 January 2012 the President of Albania, Bamir Topi decorate Luarasi after death Honor of Nation Order of Albania.[10]



*Work titles*


Articles in Drita, Sofje, 1907–1908, as editor-in-chief of the paper;_Excommunication of the Albanian letters_ (Albanian: _Mallkimi i shkronjave shqipe_) Manastir, 1911;_The Diffamation of the Albanian_ (Albanian: _Çpërfolja e shqiptarit_) Manastir, 1911. 

Your church made the *Excommunication of the Albanian letters, excommunicated the albanian language* not just persons.
So, pls stop.

----------


## Garrick

> Wrong. Independent Serbian state was founded in 1217, after the Byzantine power declined. There are very few historical record about the region, due to the late introduction of literacy in Serbia. Read the points in the #1 post of the article, which contain enormous differences. And think it over again. The topic is not about relations between nations or subordinance , it is about civilizations and history.


Your assumptions have not foothold.

When you saw that Maddison's book disproves your assumptions you started to mix different things.

Balkans and Serbia in Middle ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Middle_Ages

However, there is no need to prove the unprovable.

Progress of Western societies starts in time of Humanism and Renaissance.

Hungary is only partially experienced progress due to Humanism and Renaissance, and Balkan countries are not due to Ottoman occupation.

You are angry at Maddison who put Hungary in East European countries, but you put Balkan countries outside Europe, you can see map where is Balkans.

...
Stearsss 555, cycles are variable.

Once Spain and Italy were most developed (at least in Europe), before them Ancient Rome etc.. We can come to Egypt. China was more developed than Europe long time.

And Hungary had hard times, and now much lags behind Western Europe.

Twenty four years ago and more, Yugoslavia (including Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia etc) was more developed than Hungary.

It is completely pointless to argue about "some of this and that", instead of bickering, and insistence of unproven, it is much better to discuss about constructive things and real problems and opportunities.

And, one more thing, do not underestimate people. People (anywhere in the world) can to be less educated but to have a natural wisdom and different experiences.

...
Once again, starting points of assumptions have no foothold, if you want we can write rigorous paper about it. Honestly, there is nothing more constructive to be discussed here, except you give new evidence about of development of countries in Europe and beyond, before 14.-15. century.

...
Openly, because I hang out with the Hungarians and otherwise have a good opinion about Hungarians, very smart people, and Budapest is very beautiful and attractive city (I just do not like Hungarian goulash), probably you are not Hungarian, and I suppose your ethnicity, but I'm not going to think about it, simply here is nothing to say constructively.

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos, first don`t make propaganda and don`t go off toppic.
> Second i am not interesed about your internal problems.
> Third, i repeat:
> *We have a long list of albanian orthodox personalities killed by Orthodox Church of Greece and by Patriarchate of Constantinople, especailly teachers of albanian language.
> 
> *One example :
> 
> *Petro Nini Luarasi*
> *Petro Nini Luarasi* (born on April 22, 1864 in Luaras, Kolonjë District, Albania, then Ottoman Empire, and died on 17 August 1911 in Ersekë, Kolonjë District, Albania, then Ottoman Empire) was an Albanian rilindas activist, Christian orthodox priest, teacher and journalist. His father, Nini Petro Kostallari, had also been active in the Albanian National Revival as a publicist and teacher.
> ...


*
Ok I had enough,*

he was killed by Con/polis patriarchat?

what is next?

you tottaly changed the subject by your imaginations, so plz stop.

Byzantine church help in translation of Bible,
Byzantine church create patriarchats there wher no existed,
Byzantine church ex-comunicated Greek revolt Heroes, and Greek scholars,

and now you tell me that killed an Albanian nationalist?

you should be ashamed,

*If Byzantine church was to kill someone, really dangerous, that could be Ismael kenan who study in Orthodox schools in Ioannina,*
the rest is your fictional stories and your imagination,
ex-communication is ex-communication, no matter Orthodox Catholic Arabian African,
but I am not expecting from a muslim to understand it.

Besides you did not answer me,
byzantine church gave birth to 3 Patriarchates, and is about o give to a 4rth?
why Brazil for example or Germany does not have its own?


your sick methods, show who you are and what you want and up to,

I do not give a penny to guys like you, 
but I will stay here, to reject your poisonous lies.


you are so blind that you can not even see the finger when they show you the moon,
*Con/polis Patriarchate ex-communicated more than 63 Greek revolt heroes, and more than 19 scholars.*

*the first who declare Greek indipendence died in Austria ex-communicated,*
now search elsewhere,
ex-communication does not mean kill,
*search who did not want Albanian indepence,*

----------


## King Bardhyl

*Papa Kristo Negovani*


*Papa Kristo Negovani*, born *Kristo Harallambi*, and also known as _Kristo Negovani_ (1875 - February 12, 1905) was an Albanian nationalist figure, religious leader and writer[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

*Biography*

Born in the village of Negovan, now part of Florina in Northern Greece, then Manastir Vilayet, Ottoman Empire, he pursued his secondary schooling in Athens, Greece and later emigrated to Brăila, Romania. There, he came into contact with the Albanian National Revival movement. In 1897, he returned to his native village and worked as a teacher and parish priest.
Negovani transformed his house into a school and taught over one hundred children and adults to read and write Albanian. He preached and said the Divine Liturgy in Albanian, much to the displeasure of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy and was assassinated for his activity on February 12, 1905 by a local pro-Greek band.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

I am not describing the way they killed him and five others between them and his brother.
Is from your region West Macedonia.

----------


## Yetos

> *Papa Kristo Negovani*
> 
> 
> *Papa Kristo Negovani*, born *Kristo Harallambi*, and also known as _Kristo Negovani_ (1875 - February 12, 1905) was an Albanian nationalist figure, religious leader and writer[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
> 
> *Biography*
> 
> Born in the village of Negovan, now part of Florina in Northern Greece, then Manastir Vilayet, Ottoman Empire, he pursued his secondary schooling in Athens, Greece and later emigrated to Brăila, Romania. There, he came into contact with the Albanian National Revival movement. In 1897, he returned to his native village and worked as a teacher and parish priest.
> Negovani transformed his house into a school and taught over one hundred children and adults to read and write Albanian. He preached and said the Divine Liturgy in Albanian, much to the displeasure of the Greek Orthodox hierarchy and was assassinated for his activity on February 12, 1905 by a local pro-Greek band.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]
> ...



Sorry I know about that guy,
you do not tell the rest,
he was not killed by Con/polis Orthodox but from Greek army,


Why you did not tell the rest about that guy?
your Kristo made a fortune, and cooperate with bandits, and komitatzides
his best friend was Bel-Kamen whos life is very well known, he was attacking from Korytsa to Monasterion to Kozani,

the arque of Korytsas Photios and papa Kristo, Belkamen actions,
maybe you should search better History of Aetos and Flamboyro and Bel Kamen (White Rock in Slavic), and Neve Ska

In the Makedonian struggle, big stories happened,
like the killer of Paulos Melas, and his origin, etc etc,

now when you find why Korytsas Photios and papa Kristo almost fight each other,
as also who was your hero Bel-Kamen and how much fortune they mange to get then you can come back again

*your papa Kristo was killed in a battle among Greeks and Bel-Kamenos mens,* *he was with the pro-Albanian bandits* *of Bel-Kamenos*
later Topal killed Korytsas Photios, 

so stop your stupidity about Churches etc etc,

----------


## Stears555

> Your assumptions have not foothold.
> 
> When you saw that Maddison's book disproves your assumptions you started to mix different things.
> 
> Balkans and Serbia in Middle ages
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_in_the_Middle_Ages
> 
> ...


Again, you can't refute with your link that first independent Serbian state was born in 1217.

Orthodox countries are not experienced the renaissance, which was a Catholic (and later also protestant) movement which was born in Italy, because your Orthodox faith. (As you don't experianced former western medieval philosophies (scholasticism) and former Western art forms: Romanesque and gothic architecture.

What was yugoslavia before ww2? Backward rural country. Remember Belgrad had only 100 000 population in 1910, Even Szeged city of Hungary had such 100 000 population.
"Twenty four years ago and more, Yugoslavia (including Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia etc) was more developed than Hungary." Yugoslav economy based on cheap and free Bristish and French loans, and the time of pay-back arrived. It was considered part of the "winner allied side" of ww2. Serbia remained a backward part of yugoslavia (see your infrastructure) , an economic dependent of the richer region of croatians and slovenians.

Western World was in political chaos and economic decline in most of the 14-15th cenuries. Remember the plague which halved most of the population of Western Europe? The real development of the west was in the 11th to the late 13th century. Most towns and cities , the irbanisation appeared in that era. However urbanization stopped and slowed down in the 14 and 15th century. Most of Western Europe was in serious crisis. 

By the high western standards, Orthodox Balkan Slavic countries had no material proof of prosperity between the 11-14th century.

----------


## Stears555

*Crisis of the Late Middle Ages*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_...te_Middle_Ages


*The Crisis of the Late Middle Ages* refers to a series of events in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries that brought centuries of European prosperity and growth to a halt.[1] Three major crises led to radical changes in all areas of society. They were: demographic collapse, political instabilities and religious upheavals.
A series of famines and plagues, beginning with the Great Famine of 1315–17 and especially the Black Death of 1348, reduced the population perhaps by half or more as the Medieval Warm Period came to a close and the first century of the Little Ice Age began. Along with depopulation came social unrest and endemic warfare. Soil exhaustion, overpopulation, wars, and epidemic diseases helped cause hundreds of famines in Europe during the Middle Ages, including 95 in Britain and 75 in France.[2][3] In France, the Hundred Years' War, crop failures and epidemics reduced the population by two-thirds.[4]
Popular revolts in late medieval Europe and civil wars between nobles within countries such as the Wars of the Roses were common—with France fighting internally nine times—and there were international conflicts between kings such as France and England in the Hundred Years' War. The unity of the Roman Catholic Church was shattered by the Western Schism. The Holy Roman Empire was also in decline, in the aftermath of the Great Interregnum (1247–1273), the Empire lost cohesion and politically the separate dynasties of the various German states became more important than their common empire.

----------


## Garrick

> Again, you can't refute with your link that first independent Serbian state was born in 1217.
> 
> Orthodox countries are not experienced the renaissance, which was a Catholic (and later also protestant) movement which was born in Italy, because your Orthodox faith. (As you don't experianced former western medieval philosophies (scholasticism) and former Western art forms: Romanesque and gothic architecture.
> 
> What was yugoslavia before ww2? Backward rural country. Remember Belgrad had only 100 000 population in 1910, Even Szeged city of Hungary had such 100 000 population.
> "Twenty four years ago and more, Yugoslavia (including Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia etc) was more developed than Hungary." Yugoslav economy based on cheap and free Bristish and French loans, and the time of pay-back arrived. It was considered part of the "winner allied side" of ww2. Serbia remained a backward part of yugoslavia (see your infrastructure) , an economic dependent of the richer region of croatians and slovenians.
> 
> Western World was in political chaos and economic decline in most of the 14-15th cenuries. Remember the plague which halved most of the population of Western Europe? The real development of the west was in the 11th to the late 13th century. Most towns and cities , the irbanisation appeared in that era. However urbanization stopped and slowed down in the 14 and 15th century. Most of Western Europe was in serious crisis. 
> 
> By the high western standards, Orthodox Balkan Slavic countries had no material proof of prosperity between the 11-14th century.


Si jeni. A je mirë. Çfarë ka të re.

----------


## King Bardhyl

@ LeBrok & Yetos




> Sorry I know about that guy,
> you do not tell the rest,
> he was not killed by Con/polis Orthodox but from Greek army,
> 
> 
> Why you did not tell the rest about that guy?
> your Kristo made a fortune, and cooperate with bandits, and komitatzides
> his best friend was Bel-Kamen whos life is very well known, he was attacking from Korytsa to Monasterion to Kozani,
> 
> ...






It is interesting that as a "bandit" as you call him to deal with such things:

*Works*

Negovani is the author of prose and poetry, including school texts, translations and fables. Among his publications are

The History of the Old Testament, (Albanian: _Istori e Dhiatës së Vjetërë_), Bucharest 1889;The Destruction of Hormova, (Albanian: _Prishija e Hormovësë_), Sofia 1904;Little Dhonat Argjendi (Albanian: _I vogëli Dhonat Argjendi_), Costanza 1904;Works of the Holy Apostles (Albanian: _Bëmatë të shëntorëvet dërgimtarë_), Sofia 1906;History of Plikati (Albanian: _Istorishkronjë e Plikatit_), Thessaloniki 1909. 



*References*


 Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers & Bernd Jürgen Fischer: Albanian identities: myth and history, 2002 page 55. [1] Myzyri: The First National Albanian Schools 1887- July 1908, publisher "8 Nëntori" 1978 page 114 and page 137 (_Shkollat e Para Kombetare Shqipe 1887- korrik 1908_) [2] Religion and atheism in the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe By Bohdan R. Bociurkiw, John W. Strong, Jean K. Laux 1975 page 397 [3] Historia e Shqipërisë, Volume 2 By Selim Islami, Kristo Frashëri, Aleks Buda 1967 page 274 [4] The Albanian national awakening, 1878-1912 By Stavro Skendi 1967 page 206 [5] Sabrina P. Ramet (1988). _Eastern Christianity and politics in the twentieth century_. Duke University Press. p. 9. ISBN 978-0-8223-0827-0. Retrieved 29 May 2012. Jašar Redžepagić (1970). _Zhvillimi i arësimit dhe i sistemit shkollor të kombësisë shqiptare në teritorin e Jugosllavisë së sotme deri në vitin 1918_. Enti i teksteve dhe i mjeteve mësimore i Krahinës Socialiste Autonome të Kosovës. p. 87. Retrieved 29 May 2012. 

On February 10, 1905 Negovani held a church service in Albanian before Karavangelis, bishop of Kastoria, which came forth from the church, said these fatal words , "Do not find next year among the living".
After two days, Saturday, Feb. 12, 1905, the village was surrounded by greek andartes, who forced Negovani thirty years old ,aware that the expected end, leave the house at midnight to then slaughtered with an ax along with five others, among them his brother.

On September 22, 1906 Bajo Topulli killed the Greek Orthodox bishop Korçë, Photios,[3] who was said to be responsible for the death of Papa Kristo Negovani. 



 So this thirty years old was partitioned with an ax by peoples sent by the Greek Church. This is what you called to spread orthodoxy and helenism in greek way.
*And don`t offend me. Focus on argument and not to the person .*

LeBrok should be careful and see these insults against my country history and me personally.

I am trying to help LeBrok in this:

*Kristo Negovani*

*Kristo Negovani* właśc. Kristo Harallambi (ur. 1875 we wsi Flampouro k. Floriny, zm. 12 lutego 1905 w Negovan) – albański działacz narodowy i pisarz, duchowny prawosławny.
Pochodził z rodziny albańskiej, mieszkającej we wsi Negovan (dzis. Flampouro), w Czamerii. Był synem kupca. Uczył się w szkole średniej w Atenach, a następnie wyemigrował do rumuńskiej Braiły, gdzie pracował jako robotnik portowy. Tam też nawiązał współpracę z albańskim ruchem niepodległościowym. W 1897 powrócił do swojej rodzinnej wsi. Został wyświęcony na księdza prawosławnego. Pracował w miejscowej parafii. Dom, w którym mieszkał Negovani przekształcił w szkołę, w której uczył pisać i czytać w języku albańskim ponad setkę dzieci. Kiedy pierwszy raz odprawił w miejscowej cerkwi nabożeństwo w języku albańskim zostało to przyjęte z wrogością przez grecką hierarchię prawosławną. Dwa dni później oddział greckich andartes opanował wieś i wymordował jej mieszkańców, w tym Negovaniego. W akcie zemsty za śmierć Negovaniego, oddział albański Bajo Topullego we wrześniu 1906 zamordował greckiego biskupa Focjusza, metropolitę Korczy.
Działalność translatorską Negovani podjął jeszcze w 1889 w Rumunii, przygotowując tłumaczenie Starego Testamentu na język albański. Po powrocie do kraju przygotowywał tłumaczenie bajek La Fontaine'a w wersji albańskiej. W jego dorobku są także podręczniki do nauki języka albańskiego i utwory poetyckie.
*Dzieła*


1889: _Istori e Dhiatës së Vjetërë_, (Historia Starego Testamentu)1904: _Prishija e Hormovësë_ (Zniszczenie Hormovës)1904: _I vogëli Dhonat Argjendi_ (Mały Dhonat Argjendi)1906: _I drunjti kryq_ (Drewniany krzyż)1906: _Bëmatë të shëntorëvet dërgimtarë_ (Dzieje Apostolskie)1909: _Istorishkronjë e Plikatit_ (Historia Plikati) 
*Bibliografia*


Robert Elsie: _A Biographical Dictionary of Albanian History._. I.B. Tauris: 2013, s. 327-328. ISBN 9781780764313.Hysni Myzyri: _Shkollat e Para Kombetare Shqipe 1887- korrik 1908_. Tirana: 1978, s. 114,137. (alb.)Sabrina Ramet: _Nihil Obstat. Religion, Politics and Social Change in East-Central Europe_. Duke University Press: 1998, s. 206. ISBN 9780822320708.Stavro Skendi: _The Albanian national awakening, 1878-1912_. Princeton: 1967, s. 206-207.

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## Templar

Hungarian guy, what do you think about Bosnia? We had stone fortresses all over the country, some of the largest silver mines in Europe, the oldest written documents in exyugo, etc.

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## King Bardhyl

Enough with these stone fortresses:

 *1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage* _The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books). Though the reference to the existence of the language is clear, that to writing in Albanian is ambiguous. It cannot be said for certain whether the author meant Albanian-language books written in Latin script or simply books written in Latin. The former possibility has of course captured the imagination of subsequent generations of Albanian scholars and the text is often quoted to this end in histories and studies of Albanian literature as evidence that Albanian-language books existed long before the so-called Missal of Gjon Buzuku (1555)._

*On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered* I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
*The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins.* The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.

One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.


(1)
On the authorship of the 'Directorium', cf. M. Šufflay, Pseudobrocardus..., in: _Vjesnik kraljevskog hrvatskog slavonskog dalmatinskog zemeljskog archiva_, Zagreb, 13 (1911), p. 142-150; A. Atiya, _The Crusade in the Later Middle Ages_, New York 1965, p. 95 106, 65 67.

(2)
Settlement near the river Buna, on the Montenegrin side of the present border. At its zenith during the Middle Ages it was known as _Suacium_, Italian _Suazzo_, _Sfazzi_, French _Soans_, and now in Albanian as _Shas_ and in Serbo-Croatian as _Šas_. The town was first documented in 1067 and began to decay around the end of the 14th century.

(3)
Village on the river Kir, northeast of Shkodra.

(4)
Pult (_Polatum_) is a region on the river Kir extending beyond Drisht to Prekal.

(5)
Saba or Sapa was in the Zadrima region east of Shkodra, later to be part of the diocese of Sapa and Sarda (_Sapatensis et Sardensis_).

(6)
Albanopolis has been traditionally identified with the village of Zgërdhesh, south of Kruja.

(7)
For an interpretation of this sentence, cf. I. Zamputi, in: Hylli i Dritës, 1-2, 1995, p. 14-51.


[Extract from: _Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie_, Paris 1906, p. 478 485. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: _Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries_, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 28-30.]

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=[B]Stears555[/B];440758]Again, you can't refute with your link that first independent Serbian state was born in 1217.

Orthodox countries are not experienced the renaissance, which was a Catholic (and later also protestant) movement which was born in Italy, because your Orthodox faith. (As you don't experianced former western medieval philosophies (scholasticism) and former Western art forms: Romanesque and gothic architecture.

What was yugoslavia before ww2? Backward rural country. Remember Belgrad had only 100 000 population in 1910, Even Szeged city of Hungary had such 100 000 population.
"Twenty four years ago and more, Yugoslavia (including Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia etc) was more developed than Hungary." Yugoslav economy based on cheap and free Bristish and French loans, and the time of pay-back arrived. It was considered part of the "winner allied side" of ww2. Serbia remained a backward part of yugoslavia (see your infrastructure) , an economic dependent of the richer region of croatians and slovenians.

Western World was in political chaos and economic decline in most of the 14-15th cenuries. Remember the plague which halved most of the population of Western Europe? The real development of the west was in the 11th to the late 13th century. Most towns and cities , the irbanisation appeared in that era. However urbanization stopped and slowed down in the 14 and 15th century. Most of Western Europe was in serious crisis. 

*By the high western standards, Orthodox Balkan Slavic countries had no material proof of prosperity between the 11-14th century.*[/QUOTΕ]


*
CORRECT TIME<*

*THE CRUSADES TIME*

*THE LOOT OF BYZANTIUM AND NEAR EAST.*


*you can not deny that,*

----------


## Yetos

> @ LeBrok & Yetos
> 
> 
> *Kristo Negovani*
> 
> *Kristo Negovani* właśc. Kristo Harallambi (ur. 1875 we wsi Flampouro k. Floriny, zm. 12 lutego 1905 w Negovan) – albański działacz narodowy i pisarz, duchowny prawosławny.
> Pochodził z rodziny albańskiej, mieszkającej we wsi Negovan (dzis. Flampouro), w Czamerii. Był synem kupca. Uczył się w szkole średniej w Atenach, a następnie wyemigrował do rumuńskiej Braiły, gdzie pracował jako robotnik portowy. Tam też nawiązał współpracę z albańskim ruchem niepodległościowym. W 1897 powrócił do swojej rodzinnej wsi. Został wyświęcony na księdza prawosławnego. Pracował w miejscowej parafii. Dom, w którym mieszkał Negovani przekształcił w szkołę, w której uczył pisać i czytać w języku albańskim ponad setkę dzieci. Kiedy pierwszy raz odprawił w miejscowej cerkwi nabożeństwo w języku albańskim zostało to przyjęte z wrogością przez grecką hierarchię prawosławną. Dwa dni później oddział greckich andartes opanował wieś i wymordował jej mieszkańców, w tym Negovaniego. W akcie zemsty za śmierć Negovaniego, oddział albański Bajo Topullego we wrześniu 1906 zamordował greckiego biskupa Focjusza, metropolitę Korczy.
> Działalność translatorską Negovani podjął jeszcze w 1889 w Rumunii, przygotowując tłumaczenie Starego Testamentu na język albański. Po powrocie do kraju przygotowywał tłumaczenie bajek La Fontaine'a w wersji albańskiej. W jego dorobku są także podręczniki do nauki języka albańskiego i utwory poetyckie.
> *Dzieła*



Yes, 
the man was pat of Belkamenos and topalis/Topulis) guerrilla forces,
search who was Belkamenos (you can find him also as Bellochamis in locals vocabularry)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Bellkameni

I told many many times, the Moscohopolis case and the Aromanian choose is another story,

After the revolt of Greeks, the acts of klepths reduced,
but in Ottoman states (Albania was still under Ottoman occupation) continue.
many of them were Aromanians who preferd the Albanian nationality,
many of them continued the Klephtes living like Bellochamis (Bellkamenos)
your papa was among them,

----------


## King Bardhyl

THE ALBANIANS

Of all their vague political aspirations and obscure strivings nothing seems to have been known save the one damning fact that they had risen to protest against the reforms. It 
has been their fate to hide their virtues under an alias.
Whether as Christians or as Moslems their lot has been to win laurels for other races. *How much of the great legend of the Greek War of Independence would remain if the share which the Christian Albanians had in it were subtracted ?* When one thinks of that various struggle, sometimes savage, sometimes heroic, two chapters emerge which have specially seized the imagination of Europe — the wars of Suli against Ali Pasha, and the exploits of the seamen of Hydra against the Turkish navy. Both the Suliotes and Hydriotes were Albanians in blood, language, and customs. They were "Greeks" only in the sense that the Vlachs are " Greeks " — they belonged to the Orthodox Church, and if any of them possessed any culture at all, it was Greek culture. The Suliotes were a predatory tribe, rather better organised and more homogeneous than most Albanian septs, and their manners had not been softened by their nominal Christianity. The Hydriotes were simply pirates.

KORITZA AND THE LANGUAGE MOVEMENT
There is an air almost European about the town of Koritza.
The energy and virility of the Albanian character seem somehow to have found a half- 
expression. Yet a Greek Bishop and a Turkish Pasha, aliens both of them, still claim the allegiance of the town, though confronted by a spirit of the soil which both dread 
and both persecute — a spirit that is busily knitting a new people together, in spite of all their efforts.
If the secret thought in the august hearts of these twoofficials could be bared to the world, it would deserve to rankamong the rarest curiosities of officialdom. They have onemaster passion, the Bishop and the Pasha, and when they have finished praying for each other's destruction in their daily secret devotions, *i suspect that a fervent little clause in Greek and in Turkish is addressed in much the same phraseology to Allah and the Trinity. And that is a prayer for the destruction of a spelling-book. They look upon that spelling-book much as Zeus regarded the torches of Prometheus*. The end of the Turkish Empire is somehow predestined in the cabalistic symbols of its alphabet, and its little reading lessons in words of one syllable are like to be more fatal to the Greek Church than all the tractates of the heretics. I saw it once, and turned its pages with timid care, as one might handle a torpedo. It was locked in a glass case in the sacred precincts of the American Protestant School of Koritza, where it sheltered safely on foreign soil under the shadow of treaties and capitulations. I had just been paying a formal call on the Bishop, who had explained to me how, ever since he had been Secretary to the Ecumenical Patriarch, his hard-won leisure had been spent in ceaseless efforts to promote a union between the Anglican and the Greek Church. In business hours he had sterner work*. He occupied himself in excommunicating the parents of all the children who dared to attend the Protestant school where that spelling-book is harboured. It seemed an odd way of promoting the union of Protestantism and Orthodoxy. As for the Pasha, he had lately sent the chief of police to hunt for seditious books, and only a peremptory telegram from one of the consulates in Monastir had availed to save the alphabet.*
The history of that spelling-book is the record of the one hopeful movement which gives a promise of enlightenment to the Albania of the future.
There were no doubt schools in such centres as Jannina, Berat, Koritza, and Elbasan, but i they belonged to the Orthodox Church, and their whole ( instruction was in Greek). *They taught the young Albanian that he was a Greek, that he must speak Greek, and that his mother-tongue was only a nursery dialect for children, or a barbarous patois for " Turks."* As for the Muslims, school hardly entered into their notions. The Turkish conceptionof a school was a place where little boys squatted upon the ground, and recited the Koran by heart.
The knowledge of Greek letters was at no time rare in Southern Albania, but none the less the Albanians remained illiterate, isolated, and untaught. The few who went to the Greek Gymnasia in Koritza or Jannina, or to the University of Athens became, to all purposes, Greeks. But the bulk of the Albanian people had no intention of denationalized itself, and its patriotism in consequence was quite untainted by letters.
It was not until the second quarter of the seventeenth century that any Albanian developed the odd wish to use his language for literary purposes. The first pioneers seem to have come from among the Catholic clergy. Their record in this matter compares favourably with that of their Orthodox brethren, for whom the terms " Greek ' and "Christian" seem to have been synonymous. The first Albanian book that was ever printed was an " Imitatio Christi," published in Venice in 1626. *A Catholic Bishop of Uskub, by name Bogdanes, did much for the language.* He used the Latin alphabet, and a few copies of his works are still extant. He had a more enterprising successor 
towards the end of the eighteenth century, an Orthodox teacher named Theodore, who lived in Elbasan. He was the first pioneer to attempt a serious study of the language, and his "Lexicon Tetraglosson " (Latin, Greek, Vlach, Albanian) displays a real originality, since it claims for Albanian a place among the languages of Europe.
Clearly Theodore was a Pioneer born out of due time*. It was a dangerous thing in those days to play with letters in Albania.* Some fifty years later another Southern Albanian, Naum Veqilharxhi , took up Theodore's task, and worked out mother alphabet. It made some progress in the districts around Koritza, and a few little booklets were printed in it. *But by this time the jealousies of the Greek clergy were aroused, and it is generally believed among albanian patriots that Naoum, who was so reckless as to mitrust himself during an illness to the Greek hospital at Constantinople, was poisoned by order of the Patriarch. I repeat the story because it is interesting to note that the efforts of the Albanians to throw the ignorance of the centuries had already roused the hostility of the Orthodox Church. As yet the movement was in its infancy, and could be checked by the untimely deaths of its leaders.*

*Meanwhile the Catholic clergy in the North were by no means idle*. The Jesuits issued a number of books, mostly, however, legends of the Saints, which can have had no particular educative value. A religious periodical was also published by them in Scutari. The happiest event for the Albanian language was the translation of the Bible by Constantine Christophorides (whose intellect has been quickened by an intimate association with the scholarly traveller. Von Hahn), under the auspices of the British and Foreign Bible Society.
It was issued at first in two alphabets, more or less modified to suit the peculiar phonetics of the Albanian language in Greek characters for the South, in Latin for the North. These early editions, however, found small favour, but between the years 1877-9 a Committee of Albanian patriots, most of them moslems, sat in Constantinople and elaborated yet another alphabet, mainly Latin, with an admixture of Greek characters. This was at length adopted by the Bible Society, and their Albanian colporteurs were set to work to sell it. *They are to this day persecuted alike by the Greek Church and by the Turks. Every journey they undertake is an adventure. Their families are boycotted and excommunicated by the Orthodox priesthood they themselves are frequently imprisoned by the Turks.* The work of the Constantinople Commission soon attracted the notice of the Turkish Government, and it had perforce to remove itself to a free centre. It settled in Bucharest and established a printing press of its own, from which about fifty books have been issued, including a Grammar, a Life of Skanderbeg, a popular history of Albania, and a number of translations. Albanian periodicals are issued in Bucharest, in Sofia, in Rome, and in London, but comparatively few copies find their way into Turkey.
*To keep Albania savage and ignorant is a fundamental principle of Abdul Hamid's statescraft*. Macedonia is covered with schools which disseminate the views of every conceivable racial propaganda. *There are Greek schools to Hellenise Vlachs and Slavs and Albanians.* There are Bulgarian schools which maintain the schism within the Orthodox Church. There are Servian schools to split the Slav element. *There are Roumanian schools to detach the Vlachs from the Hellenic interest.* On all of these the Porte smiles with an indifferent and capricious favour. The more schools there are and the more propagandas, the less fear is there of a coalition among the Christians against he Turkish yoke. For all of these there is a contemptuous tolerance. They are part of the hereditary Ottoman tradition of dividing to conquer. *But Albanian schools fall under a very different category. In them the Turks have seen a force making not for discord, but for unity. The Albanians, divided in religion, have only their language in common, and in the cult of that language lies the hope of the reunion of Moslem and Christian. The Albanian movement, nationalist like all the others, differed from them in seeking its rallying-point not in a religious but in a secular propaganda.*

Though the earlier pioneers were all Christians, their work was never partisan, and they readily won the patronage and the sympathy of the Muslim aristocracy.
That is doubtless why the " Young Turkish" Liberal movement, ineffective and innocuous though it is, is persecuted more severely than any Bulgarian conspiracy. In the case of the Albanians there were additional reasons at work. They are a military people whose revolt would be as formidable as their loyalty is valuable. Their country is difficult and inaccessible, and therefore it seemed wise to check the first signs of particularism, since an armed rising would be peculiarly difficult to subdue.
Indeed, the surprising thing is that Albanian schools ever came to be established at all. In 1884, however, the Albanian Society, which was busied in publishing its booklets and periodicals in Bucharest, contrived to open a secondary school for boys in Koritza. It had on an average about sixty pupils, who came from both Moslem and Christian families, while the teachers belonged to the Orthodox rite. *Its success among the Christians, however, was limited, because from the first it was subjected to the systematic persecution of the Greek clergy.* *The reading of anathemas against it soon became a regular part of the ritual in the Greek cathedral*. Its teachers were steadily boycotted. *But even these methods proved ineffective, and ultimately the Greeks found it necessary to denounce the two principal Albanian teachers as traitors who were conspiring against the Sultan.* Their efforts went unheeded for some years, since the war of 1897 had left the whole Greek race under a cloud. But in 1902 the teachers, two brothers named Naoum and Leonidas Natcha, were arrested, and still languish untried 
in prison. *The school, as i saw it, is a wrecked and dismantled shell, its garden overgrown with weeds, and its class-rooms littered with the stones which the apostles of Hellenism and culture cast through its broken windows as they go arrogantly by.* Another interesting experiment still survives in a maimed form. In 1889 an Albanian Protestant School for girls and young boys was started under the auspices of the American Mission by Mr. Gerassimo Kyrias, an able and devoted man who did much in a short life for his language and the cause. Like so many of the pioneers of the movement, he came to an untimely end. He was captured by brigands, and dragged about by them for the best part of a year, while his friends collected an exorbitant ransom. The exposure, the privation, and the wanton cruelty to which he was subjected during this experience practically killed him, and he died soon after his release. *The school is carried on by his sister, a graduate of Robert College. For four years it thrived and was much patronised by the Moslem gentry of Koritza. But its success in due course aroused the suspicions of the authorities. It would never do to allow the next generation of the Mohamedan aristocracy to be brought up by mothers who had imbibed the idea of patriotism with a knowledge of their own tongue. It was given out that the father of any Mohamedan child attending the school would be sent immediately, and without trial, into lifelong exile.*

Too many had gone that road before now a hapless poet whosewhole crime was to have published a version of the legend of Genevieve in the proscribed Albanian language, and again a generous and tolerant hey who had assisted the Koritza schools. The threat proved effective, and only the Christian scholars remained. *With them the Greek clergy knew how to deal. There were the usual anathemas, excommunications, and boycotts, and in 1904 when I visited Koritza,* Miss Kyrias found her pupils reduced to about twenty boarders, some of them Protestants, and most of them members of families whose homes lie beyond the immediate influence of the Bishop of Koritza. Her teaching is carried on as though it were a furtive and shameful practice, and her school, centre of high influences, model of order and sweetness and goodwill, would be more readily tolerated if it were a nest of vice and crime. At any moment the chief of police may come clanking into the courtyard, and more than once the brave woman who works there alone and unprotected has stood in her doorway and dared him to execute his threat of confiscating her books.

*There are also the Catholic schools in the North, conducted by the Jesuits in Scutari*, and one or two other of the larger Gheg centres. *The Catholic clergy has done much for the Albanian language*, but it conducts its schools on a definitely religious basis, which deprives them of any influence upon the Mohamedans, who form, after all, two- thirds of the population. They owe their immunity to the fact that they are under Austrian protection.
*The same organisation which founded the Albanian boys' school in Koritza, opened schools at Pogradetz and in the Colonia district, but these also were closed mainly through the jealousy of the Greeks.* 
On the coast there are secular Italian schools at Durazzo and Vallona, which have also had their share of persecution.
The fears of the Turks and the jealousies of the Greeks have worked their will upon the Albanian movement so far as any external organisation goes. They have destroyed the machinery of propaganda, and left it a cult of the heart which depends on the devotion of individuals. It has neither schools nor churches nor committees. There are Albanian societies no doubt in Romanian, in Italy, and Egypt, more or less active and more or less independent. But they have no branches in Albania.
*Under the joint persecution of the Church and the State, the cult of the Albanian language has deepened and broadened into a patriotic movement at once nationalist and democratic*.

Persecution has strengthened their fibre, and the spiritual stimulus of this preoccupation about an idea has enlarged their mental horizon, softened their manners, and raised them to a moral level where self- discipline and disinterested devotion alike become possible. In this cult of letters and language lies the best pledge for the future of Albania. Thanks to the folly of Greeks and Turks, it is already laying the foundation of her inde- pendence, and, at the same time, of her civilisation. *When, in the fulness of time, an Albanian prince takes his seat on the throne of Skanderbeg, he will swear his fealty to the enlightened constitution of the youngest of European kingdoms neither on Bible nor Koran. He will take his oath, if he be wise, on the Albanian spelling-book.*

Source:
*Macedonia**; its races and their future* ([1906])
Author: Brailsford, Henry Noel, 1873-1958
https://archive.org/details/macedoniaitsrace00braiuoft

Who was *Henry Noel Brailsford:*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._N._Brailsford

----------


## King Bardhyl

You want more?




Now you understand why the Greek Church and the Patriarchate kill teachers and Albanian Orthodox priests?
Apparently Greek priests and monks were well trained in the use of axes, knives, poison, etc.

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## Yetos

> You want more?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you understand why the Greek Church and the Patriarchate kill teachers and Albanian Orthodox priests?
> Apparently Greek priests and monks were well trained in the use of axes, knives, poison, etc.



that is true, that is why i do not christianity,

but I wonder why history is not always as you like it to be?

you heve your nationality 
I have mine,
*Topullis for you is hero,
for me is not,*

so you tell me nothing,
*
church history is full of such,*

*if I mention Borgians what you will tell me?*

*simply you are someone who cries about his past,*

you tell me about a bandit priest, to prove what?
that church is not good? 
We all know that from bigger and more fancy stories,

your disapointment, cause only few follow you, and you convice noone, is such, that you are blinded by hate,
Well come to democratic world, not Theocratic, neither one man rules,
we do not have to agree, your Heroes are not mine, neither mine are yours,
You entered a religion thread to post about a bandit priest, that was killed by Greek rabels, cause he cooperate with Albanian rabels,

*ok If I post about Orthodox Photios BISHOP of Korytsa who was murdered by Albanian rabels what next?*

*YOU BELIEVE ALBANIANS ARE INNOCENTS? OR YOU LIKE TO SHOW THEM AS ANGELS?
*
*WE ARE NOT KIDS?* 

there was a strugle there,

We lost Korytsa, you earned her
we lost Monasterion, else earned it
we earn Florina, you and SlavoMakedonians lost it.
*
the rest are your imagination, or your propaganda effort to show you as innocents or victims,
but it is not,*

----------


## King Bardhyl

*Among us seem like a race. I argue you using serious references, while you continue to lie as much as possible.*

*1923
League of Nations:
The Sederholm Enquiry in Southern Albania*

_Jakob Johannes Sederholm (1863-1934), born in Helsinki, was a Finnish geologist and petrologist who specialized in the study of migmatite, a term which he coined. He studied in Helsinki, Stockholm and Heidelberg before returning to his country to work for the Geological Service of Finland (Geologian tutkimuskeskus). Sederholm was the author of over 250 scholarly works. He was also a member of the Finnish parliament which he represented at the League of Nations. In this capacity he headed a commission of inquiry into conditions in southern Albania that visited the country from 19 December 1922 to 1 February 1923. In this connection, Sederholm produced the following lucid report on the tense situation between Albanians and Greeks in southern Albania which, even today, makes interesting reading._

*The Relations between Albania and Greece at the Time of the Visit*
At the time of my arrival at Koritza I received information which seemed to show that the Greek Government was persisting in its former attitude of not regarding the provinces of Koritza and Arghirocastro as belonging to Albania
The long delay which has occurred regarding the final decision concerning the delimitation of the boundaries between Greek Macedonia and the former Ottoman Kaza of Koritza attributed to Albania, has caused such uneasiness in the province of Koritza, especially in those portions of the former Kaza of Koritza which are still occupied by Greek troops to some extent in disregard all the decisions of the Conference of Ambassadors. It was not possible for me to enquire into the conditions within this area or to investigate the many complaints of people living there which were reported to me. On my arrival at the boundary of this area, the Greek authorities, although otherwise showing me perfect courtesy, *refused to allow me to enter it.* It seemed to me, however, obvious that very serious difficulties would continue to exist so long as the territory in question remained in an ambiguous situation. Its inhabitants had been recruited as soldiers in the Greek Army, although their future fate might not be connected with that of Greece, and recalcitrants were being severely punished. The inhabitants also had to pay heavy taxes in money and kind. Further, their main market was at Koritza and they found their existence very difficult so long as they were separated from that town, to whose inhabitants this separation also caused serious hardships. Moreover, there was a danger that the present unsettled state of affairs may lead to an increase in the tension between Greece and Albania. I therefore ventured to recommend, in a telegram to the Secretary-General, that the Council of the League should request the Conference of Ambassadors to hasten the final delimitation. It is only when that question is finally settled that a firm basis can be laid for a good understanding between these two neighbouring countries. 


*The Question of the Formation of an Independent Orthodox Albanian Church*
As stated already in my last report, the question of the formation of an independent Orthodox Albanian Church seems to be approaching a definite solution. It may be of interest to give a brief account of the beginning and development of the movement which has led to this result. It was among the Albanian emigrants to North America that the wish first originated to create Albanian religious communities independent of the Greek churches and using Albanian as the language of the divine service. The first of these communities was formed in Boston in the year 1919, with the Rev. Fan Noli as its head. He was ordained a priest by the Russian Metropolite in New York, the Greek higher clergy having refused to do so. The desire of the Albanians to get for the Rev. Fan Noli investiture as a bishop from the Russian Metropolite was not fulfilled, and the community, taking the matter into their own hands has declared the Rev. Fan Noli, bishop without the investiture of the Church.
Subsequently the Rev. Fan Noli and other Albanian orthodox clergymen came over from America to Koritza, where they continued their efforts to create a national Albanian Orthodox Church. They were assisted by a number of nationalists, most of them also emigrants returned from America.
The congress met at Berat and decided to create an Albanian autocephalous Church and to apply to the Patriarchate for approval of that decision. Contrary to what many people anticipated, the Patriarch gave a favourable reception to the demand and sent to Koritza a representative invested with full powers, the Exarch Ierotheos. The Exarch, himself of Albanian origin, preached in the church in Albanian, sanctified the Albanian independent Church and implored benediction over it; he issued a proclamation in which he declared that the Patriarchate, recognising the legal character of the congress of Berat, was favourable to the formation of an independent Albanian Church and would proceed to the measures necessary to confirm the ecclesiastical separation (_tomos syndikos_).
The congress of Berat expressed the following wishes: the metropolites should be Albanians; the language of the divine service, including that of the mass, should in future be Albanian, except in the churches frequented by the grecophone communities of the Arghirocastro region.
The above is the situation of the church question as explained to me by the present chiefs of the Albanian Church in Koritza, one of whom spoke English, and also by the Exarch Ierotheos, through an interpreter. The former always spoke of the formation of an ‘autocephalous’ Church, and the word ‘autonomous’ was never mentioned; it was explicitly stated that the Exarch possessed full powers not only to enquire into, but also to promulgate, the formation of an autocephalous Church.
The representation of the situation which I got later from Serb-Croat-Slovene sources differs, however, in some important points from the information which I obtained in Koritza. According to the former information, which had been received from the Serb-Croat-Slovene representative in Constantinople, the Patriarch did not give his emissary full powers to take decisions but only to enquire upon the matters in question, and the decision was to be taken later by the Holy Synod in Constantinople. Further, it was said that the character of the independent Albanian Church to be formed would not be that of an autocephalous church, headed by a Patriarch, but of an autonomous church, which would remain subordinate to the Patriarch in Constantinople in some respects. 
The difference in these two interpretations of the situation is perhaps mainly formal. In every case it seems clear that the formation of an independent Albanian Church is only a matter of time.
*In the prefecture of Koritza there are, even according to Greek statistics, no grecophone people.*
The school question in the Koritza region has a different aspect from that in the west. *Here there are no linguistic minorities.* As has already been remarked, all the population, even the most eager Hellenophiles, speak Albanian in their homes. *But with one exception there have been no Albanian schools before the time of the French occupation, all schools for the Christian population being Greek, which was also the language of commerce, etc.* The Mohammedan population used also Turkish as their school language. Thus Greek was the language of culture of the Christian population, and many Albanians from Koritza, having ended their school studies, completed their instruction at the Greek University in Athens.
It should, however, be possible in a few years to create satisfactory primary schools. *The Albanian schools in Northern Albania organised by the Jesuits and the Franciscan brotherhoods are already quite satisfactory.*
The classes of the present French lycée are crowded, some of them having more than 40 pupils. These pupils are of very different ages and received their earlier instruction in different languages, some having studied in Albanian, others in Greek, Austrian or Italian schools. French being an entirely foreign language, it has been difficult to teach them, in the lower classes, enough of the language to enable them to follow with success the instruction in the higher classes. The director of the lycée, who devotes himself with much enthusiasm to his task, hopes that this difficulty will soon be overcome.
It may be objected that the language conditions in Southern Albania are very different from those in most other countries, the Christian population of this region having used Albanian mainly as the language of common intercourse; while Greek has long continued to be the language of religion, of literature and of commerce.
The conditions are in some respects, although not very closely, analogous to those which prevailed in my own country, Finland, less than a century ago, when the Finns, although forming the great majority of the population, received all their higher instruction in the grammar schools and at the university in the Swedish language, which was also the prevalent language of legislation and administration. Finnish was mainly used for the most elementary instruction and in religious and economic books for the people. Swedish, however, was never considered as being the mother-tongue or the ‘own language’ of such educated Finns as continued to speak Finnish in their homes. Later, when nationalism awoke, the Finns built up in less than half a century a complete literature of their own, giving thus to the Albanians an encouraging example to follow and an indication of the rapidity with which such a work can be done.
In the case of Finland, however, there existed at least one radical difference as compared with the conditions in Albania, inasmuch as the Swedish-speaking minority in Finland were fervent patriots, whereas many of the Hellenophiles in Southern Albania, as well as their Greek supporters, are hostile to the Albanian State. It is not to be expected that the Albanian Government would ever allow Greek schools for the Albanian-speaking population as long as they are used for the purpose of pan-Hellenic propaganda. The Albanians will prefer to use one of the western languages for the instruction in the higher schools till the time when their own literature has been sufficiently developed to be used for that purpose.
At the present time no foreign language has a decided preponderance in Albania. French is, as usual in the Orient, known to almost all the higher classes. Turkish is spoken by many people all over the country, while a knowledge of Greek is common in Southern Albania and will continue to retain importance, especially for commercial purposes. English is known by the emigrants returned from America; Italian is general in the coast towns of the Adriatic; German was spread during the war; and some knowledge of Serbian is not uncommon in the north and the west. As a result of her history, Albania is as divided culturally as it is geographically and economically, and it is only when her own language shall have been developed so as to serve all the needs of an indigenous culture that this division will cease to exist.
There are no racial feelings between Greeks and Albanians, and neither regards the other as an inferior race. *It would be difficult for the Greeks to do so, as such a great proportion of the population of Greece is of Albanian origin and so many of the best citizens of Greece have sprung from Shkipetars.*
If insurrectional movements should begin, they could only be started from the other side of the frontier, where certainly organisations of ‘pan-Epirotes’ exist, who have openly declared their intention to conquer ‘Northern Epirus’ for Greece. It must be assumed that the Greek Government would hinder all such intentions by forbidding their organisations and by preventing their procuring arms. This is, of course, the duty, under the recognised principles of international law, of any Government in similar circumstances.
The deduction to be made from the statistics which I have given, and which I believe to be roughly accurate, is that the decision taken by the Powers in fixing the southern frontiers of Albania was on the whole a just and wise one. It reinforces the conviction that the existence of an independent Albania is a necessity to the peace of that part of Europe and that an independent Albania is only possible if the Southern provinces are included. 
In order that this situation may remain permanent, the reforms indicated in this report are of primary importance, and it is comforting to be able to conclude this report by stating that they form part of the programme of the present government of Albania. 
The sooner and the more completely they are carried out the sooner will the anxieties of friends of Albania be put to rest. 
(Signed)
J. J. Sederholm 

[League of Nations. Report of the Commission of Enquiry in Albania on its Activities from December 19th, 1922, to February 1st, 1923. The Enquiry in Southern Albania. April 6th, 1923. in: League of Nations, Official Journal, Geneva, May 1923, p. 491-502.]

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Yes, 
> the man was pat of Belkamenos and topalis/Topulis) guerrilla forces,
> search who was Belkamenos (you can find him also as Bellochamis in locals vocabularry)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiro_Bellkameni
> 
> I told many many times, the Moscohopolis case and the Aromanian choose is another story,
> 
> After the revolt of Greeks, the acts of klepths reduced,
> ...


And what you intend to show with this?
*Spiro Bellkameni* From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Spiro Bellkameni* (1885-1912) was an Albanian military commander and activist of the Albanian National Awakening. He led one of the most important bands during the Albanian revolts of the 1900-1910s.[1]
*Life* Born in Bellkamen, in the Manastir Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire in 1885 he was a close associate of Themistokli Gërmenji and Mihal Grameno. I*n 1906 he was a member of Bajo Topulli's band that assassinated the Pontic Greek bishop of Korçë Photios as retribution for the assassination of Kristo Negovani, which was instigated by Photio*s.[2][3] *During the Albanian Revolt of 1911 he defeated an Ottoman contingent in Mali i Thatë.*[4] He was assassinated by Ottoman agents under orders from the pro-Ottoman commander of Neveska Abdurraman Dibra in October 1912.

----------


## King Bardhyl

The history of Albanians is the history of a people without support who always fought against Eastern onslaughts, Slavic-Orthodox and Islamic-Ottoman.

We as a people during our history have always fought and we have seen with hope from the west.
For us the sun rises in the west. And after 500 years thanks God the "East chapter" in our history is closed.
Such for you Yetos and your panorthodox and panhellenic propaganda.
And when you discuss with me use arguments not large letters, this don`t help you.
How is it possible that a man like you, an Engineer, go around the forums insulting Albanians.

DISGUSTING

----------


## Garrick

> THE ALBANIANS
> 
> Of all their vague political aspirations and obscure strivings nothing seems to have been known save the one damning fact that they had risen to protest against the reforms. It 
> has been their fate to hide their virtues under an alias.
> Whether as Christians or as Moslems their lot has been to win laurels for other races. *How much of the great legend of the Greek War of Independence would remain if the share which the Christian Albanians had in it were subtracted ?* When one thinks of that various struggle, sometimes savage, sometimes heroic, two chapters emerge which have specially seized the imagination of Europe — the wars of Suli against Ali Pasha, and the exploits of the seamen of Hydra against the Turkish navy. Both the Suliotes and Hydriotes were Albanians in blood, language, and customs. They were "Greeks" only in the sense that the Vlachs are " Greeks " — they belonged to the Orthodox Church, and if any of them possessed any culture at all, it was Greek culture. The Suliotes were a predatory tribe, rather better organised and more homogeneous than most Albanian septs, and their manners had not been softened by their nominal Christianity. The Hydriotes were simply pirates.


Who about what, Bardhyl about fictional Chamuria.

How many Albanian states, how many do you wear in your avatar?

Here's another one, last month you declared so called Ilirida, in Skopje. 

*Veterans of Albanian politics proclaim the so called Republic of Ilirida*

http://www.balkaneu.com/veterans-alb...ublic-ilirida/

Bardhyl, Kurds number about 30 million, and they have no their state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds

Albanians, less than five millions, but according your avatar 5 states, (or more?).

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## King Bardhyl

> Si jeni. A je mirë. Çfarë ka të re.


Hey Garrick, you are finding your roots?

----------


## Ike

> Hey Garrick, you are finding your roots?


Damn it Bardhyl, if you are so insecure in your ethnic background, that you consider speaking another language a potential harm to your self-image, that doesn't mean others are.

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## King Bardhyl

Welcome back, Ike.
It's a pleasure to hear you again.
BTW, you told that you are not serb, where are you from?

----------


## Ike

Since your behavior on this forum is based upon the nationality of the interlocutor, I don't think it's wise to tell.

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## King Bardhyl

> Since your behavior on this forum is based upon the nationality of the interlocutor, I don't think it's wise to tell.


The curiosity is that in one of your posts you told me that you are not serb, While at your profile is written:










*About Ike* Country Flag:YugoslaviaNationality:SerbiaGender:Male

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## Ike

If you wanna believe that, then do so. I don't care. It's obvious you're looking for a victim for your hate speech and I ain't gonna be that one ;)

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## King Bardhyl

> If you wanna believe that, then do so. I don't care. It's obvious you're looking for a victim for your hate speech and I ain't gonna be that one ;)


What? Read your post #115
Your nick is Ike not Garrick.

----------


## Ike

Garrick is a decent person, and he didn't allow himself to start a nationalistic debate with you. 
I, on the other hand, am not Serbian and I fell free to publicly notice the roots of your deviant behavior, without the need to get involved into some Serbian-Albanian hate dialogue.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Garrick is a decent person, and he didn't allow himself to start a nationalistic debate with you. 
> I, on the other hand, am not Serbian and I fell free to publicly notice the roots of your deviant behavior, without the need to get involved into some Serbian-Albanian hate dialogue.

----------


## Yetos

> The history of Albanians is the history of a people without support who always fought against Eastern onslaughts, Slavic-Orthodox and Islamic-Ottoman.
> 
> We as a people during our history have always fought and we have seen with hope from the west.
> For us the sun rises in the west. And after 500 years thanks God the "East chapter" in our history is closed.
> Such for you Yetos and your panorthodox and panhellenic propaganda.
> And when you discuss with me use arguments not large letters, this don`t help you.
> How is it possible that a man like you, an Engineer, go around the forums insulting Albanians.
> 
> DISGUSTING



Yeah Yeah Yeah,
you were Allies with Ottomans,
you suck many times Greece, you served the Ottomans for centuries,

do not lie to your shelf, 
the Arnauts, the ones who forget to return, the mercenairies of Ottoman empire,

there is no need to Lie, neither to you neither to us,

Your PanAlbanism is build by lies,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> Yeah Yeah Yeah,
> you were Allies with Ottomans,
> you suck many times Greece, you served the Ottomans for centuries,
> 
> do not lie to your shelf, 
> the Arnauts, the ones who forget to return, the mercenairies of Ottoman empire,
> 
> there is no need to Lie, neither to you neither to us,
> 
> Your PanAlbanism is build by lies,


I repeat my question, how is possibile a person who claims to be an engineer that presumably has an educational and cultural level goes from one forum to another to provoke and insulting Albanians. 

*TO ALL THE MEMBER OF THIS FORUM THIS PERSON WITH NICKNAME YETOS FOR HIS SHAME GOES THROUGH THE MOST BANAL FORUMS INSULTING ALBANIANS "DISCUSSING" WITH TEENAGERS.* *AND HE IS AN IGNORANT DON`T PAY ATTENTION TO HIM.*
*IT`S A SHAME FOR YOU YETOS.*

Now i will tell you the truth. I know wery well who are you. And all this time i have used you not to prove you that your country is liberated by albanians because as an Greek General Mr Kalergi said:

_The real Greeks would never have driven_ _out the Turks. They were too degraded even to wish for_ _liberty. For many years after we had achieved our own_ _independence they called the times of Turkish rule ^the_ _good times.^ It was the Albanians and Macedonians and_ _-foreigners who fought the Turks._  *Conversations with M. Thiers, M. Guizot, and other distinguished persons, during the Second Empire; (1878) VOL II p 304-305*

Even kids know this.
No, my intentions was to prove to LeBroke that as Fallmerayer said:

_"Hellenes do not exist in Europe anymore. The universal creations of their spirit and a few ruins remained are the proofs of once upon a time the Hellenes existed. Because there is not even a single drop of pure hellenic blood flowing through the veins of christian population of today's Greece."_ *(Austrian, Tirol, Historian Jakob Philip Fallmerayer, Geschichte der Halbinsel Morea I, Stuttgart-1830)*_

_*Because as my friend Gustav Klimt had said , no* *kangaroo in Austria only in Australia, so no greeks in modern time only in ancient book.
*

----------


## King Bardhyl

About you, you told us that you are from Greek Macedonia and you know your genealogy up to three generations and consider yourself an true macedonian and an pagan, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH.
THAT`S YOUR ORIGINE:






You are one of those karamanlides:

Karamanlidika inscription found on the door of a house in İncesu, Turkey
Look the inscription on top: Masha'Allah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides

*Now can you tell us some of those jokes?*

----------


## King Bardhyl

Exi eise akoma pe Irakli Pidhis, ponai to nkollo, mporeis na kathis tora stin karekla se 5 lepta? Ade ox,ox.
Such for you.


I like this.

----------


## King Bardhyl

This is part of a private message sent by Yetos to me 10.09.2014, these are his words:

_"besides I went at his village, and know the lands there, when i served my military obligations,
for 3 months I was shooting Albanians, I enjoy it much",_

----------


## Ike

> 



It makes sense to public something like this only if you believe that it is applicable for Albanians also.

----------


## Yetos

> i repeat my question, how is possibile a person who claims to be an engineer that presumably has an educational and cultural level goes from one forum to another to provoke and insulting albanians. 
> 
> *to all the member of this forum this person with nickname yetos for his shame goes through the most banal forums insulting albanians "discussing" with teenagers.* *and he is an ignorant don`t pay attention to him.*
> *it`s a shame for you.*
> 
> now i will tell you the truth. I know wery well who are you. And all this time i have used you not to prove you that your country is liberated by albanians because as an greek general mr kalergi said:
> 
> _the real greeks would never have driven_ _out the turks. They were too degraded even to wish for_ _liberty. For many years after we had achieved our own_ _independence they called the times of turkish rule ^the_ _good times.^ it was the albanians and macedonians and_ _-foreigners who fought the turks._  *conversations with m. Thiers, m. Guizot, and other distinguished persons, during the second empire; (1878) vol ii p 304-305*
> 
> ...




*correct no Albania, only west Turkey*,

----------


## King Bardhyl

> It makes sense to public something like this only if you believe that it is applicable for Albanians also.


What`s the problem Ike? Why you start to speak me?

BTW, DID YOU LIKE MY NEW AVATAR?

----------


## hope

King Bardhyl you are only back after a ban, I think you should rethink your attitude about now and stop posting members private messages online.

----------


## Yetos

> This is part of a private message sent by Yetos to me 10.09.2014, these are his words:
> 
> _"besides I went at his village, and know the lands there, when i served my military obligations,
> for 3 months I was shooting Albanians, I enjoy it much",_


Indeed,
how would you act against Lazaret mafia, drug dealers,
mules loaded of heroin, and chassis,
AK47 shoot you back,
indeed,

NOW GO BACK AND CRY, AND SAY, OUR HERO IS KASTRIOTI, BUT WE ARE CHILDREN OF VALLAVAN PASHA.
GO BACK AND CRY AND MAKE THE INNOCENT, WE FOUGHT ISLAMIC OTTOMANS, BUT WE ALLY WITH THEM TO SUCK GREECE MANY TIMES< AND WE SERVE THEM IN THE WARS AND BATTLES,
IS IT TRUE THAT IN THE BATTLES OF AUSTRIA SULEIGMAN THE MAGNIFICENT HAD ARNAUT ARMY AS THE BEST, A GIFT BY HIS WIFE?

I also travel all Devolis river taking hydrologic measurements, and was protected by Albanian singurimi,
your doctor's hydropower plants, were designed by Nato engineers, much before you know it,
but your doctor ate the money, remember?
the dead man in Tirana?

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## King Bardhyl

> King Bardhyl you are only back after a ban, I think you should rethink your attitude about now and stop posting members private messages online.


What you disturb, the fact that i publish a private message or the threatening content ?

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## hope

> What you disturb, the fact that i publish a private message or threatening content ?


The content is a different matter. Private messages are between those who send and receive them, not to be posted on the forum board.

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## King Bardhyl

> The content is a different matter. Private messages are between those who send and receive them, not to be posted on the forum board.


Ok, I did not know this rule.
But you have to take in consideration that message.

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## Ike

> What`s the problem Ike? Why you start to speak me?


Oh, you don't object my comment. It seems we agreed on something? :)

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## Angela

The publication of private messages may necessitate a reprimand or a penalty. However, anyone who would use our private message function to write such a thing to another member should be banned *permanently*.

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## King Bardhyl

I repeat i did not know this rule. but you can understand my behavior during these days, you can read my posts and you will see how I avoid provocations.

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## hope

> Ok, I did not know this rule.
> But you have to take in consideration that message.


If you are receiving mail, which you are think is threatening, report to Admin.

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## hope

> The publication of private messages may necessitate a reprimand or a penalty. However, anyone who would use our private message function to write such a thing to another member should be banned *permanently*.


Yes, the PM system is a privilege and is not intended for abuse of members.

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## King Bardhyl

> If you are receiving mail, which you are think is threatening, report to Admin.


I've done this, time ago.

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## Yetos

> What you disturb, the fact that i publish a private message or the threatening content ?


Why you post that and the rest of the message?

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## King Bardhyl

> Why you post that and the rest of the message?


I can make if the moderator give me the permision.

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## Yetos

> I can make if the moderator give me the permision.


no matter what you say,
the first Greek officers of Albanian origin is a fact,
Greece, in order to support the non racism, opened the gates of military high school, to the first Albanians who were borned in Greece, took Greek citizenship, and their parents are in Greece for more than 20 years,
Greek high military High school has 2 branches, the Foreign and the domestic,
from the foreign every year graduate more than 60 officers 20 naval and 20 pilots and 150 doctors and engineers.
in The domestic are the one who will support Greek army forces, or allied in NATO.
until now from the domestic graduate 35 officers from Slav Makedonia, under special treaty among NATO.
from now on Greek citizens of Albanian origin can pass to serve the Greek military forces,

Thank you.

PS,

you understand Greek very well so stop nonsense

ΗΡΑΚΛΕΙΔΗΣ







BTW you did not ask me how and what I was doing in Devolis?
I think you know the case of Hydroelectric plants and the 'doctor'

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## Garrick

> What`s the problem Ike? Why you start to speak me?
> 
> BTW, DID YOU LIKE MY NEW AVATAR?


Bardhyl
You don't have *n* Albanian states in your avatar more.

What did you come up with new?

Now, you copy Slavic Macedonians.

Your message is that Ancient Greeks are ancestors of Albanians.

Hmm. But you spoke that Illyrians are ancestors. Actually you mentioned and Pelasgians. And some other Ancients people. Maybe all of them together.

...
Oh no. You just adore Ancient Greece.

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## King Bardhyl

> Bardhyl
> You don't have *n* Albanian states in your avatar more.
> 
> What did you come up with new?
> 
> Now, you copy Slavic Macedonians.
> 
> Your message is that Ancient Greeks are ancestors of Albanians.
> 
> ...


Ncncnc, nothing of all of those you say. It`s a little secret.
And you are a new entry in this region , so need other 1500-2000 years to start to understand the secrets .

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## Garrick

> Ncncnc, nothing of all of those you say. It`s a little secret.
> And you are a new entry in this region , so need other 1500-2000 years to start to understand the secrets .


One old Serbian adage says (it is generally, not offense):

"Do you not adorn yourself with extraneous feathers".

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## King Bardhyl

[QUOTE=Garrick;440580]


> Most of medieval Hungarian cathedrals and palaces were destroyed during the Ottoman wars. [/QUOTE]
> 
> Hungary and Serbia had very good relations in Middle age, including kinship of Royal families:
> http://books.google.rs/books?id=Y0NB...20ages&f=false
> 
> In the time of Ottoman Empire, Serbs were among defenders of Hungary and Austria:
> 
> “The Hungarian kings encouraged the immigration of Serbs to the kingdom, and hired many of them as soldiers and border guards.”
> 
> ...


Let`s speak about serbian myths:

Some nations show restraint, shyness, or reluctance when it comes to exalting historical events and national heroes. India, for example, a country where thousands of myths originated, has refrained from underscoring the deeds of her national heroes. 
_Sylvain, Levy, India: "India does not have that worship of great men so important to us ... India has given birth to an exceptional genious, Asvaghosha ... Asvaghosha belongs entirely to Western learning" (cited by J. Grenier, "Imaginary India," Les lIes, Gallimard, 1959)._ 
Conversely, it has become the characteristic of the Serb nation - as various scholars have observed - to glorify personages and events associated with nationalists pride. For imaginative, sentimental, or other reasons which shall not be examined here, the Serbs have created nationalistic myths as India has created religious ones. 

_Illustrative of this conception are a few examples picked at random from various books: 
"Dusan’s achievement became more than a historical memory. It was to constitute a political programme for the Serbs who, early in the nineteenth century, were liberated from over five centuries of Turkish rule" (H.C. Darby [and others] ,A short history of Yugoslavia from early times to 1966, London, Cambridge U.P. 1966, p. 87) II "Nineteenth-century British statesmen did not use the affairs of Plantagenet England as an argument in forming their policy, but the memory of Dusan’s Empire, kept alive by folk-tales and ballads, was an important factor in the "Eastern Question" and the "Macedonia Problem" (ibidem). // "Urosh III who was murdered by his son Stefan Dushan was regarded as a saint although he had revolted against his own father, murdered his own brother and sought to murder his own son" (Temperley, op. cit., p. 63-64) II "Czar Stefan was named "Dushan" because he strangled his father, but his name is interpreted as ‘victorious’, (K. Jirecek, Geschichte derSerben, p. 365-366). II Plusieurs de leurs rois ont ete eleves au rang des saints de cette eglise sans l’avoir toujours merite par leur conduite" — "In this Church, several of their kings were elevated to the rank of saints without always deserving it through their conduct" (A. Boue, La Turquie d’Europe, II p. 65). II "Historically, Marko Kraljevich is a petty Serbian chieftain who served under the Turks against his Christian brethern when it paid him to do so... but popular imagination had attached to him the attributes of the ancient war-God" (Durham, Some Tribal . . . p. 108)._
In so doing, however, they have insisted to the extreme upon the rights of their own nation which clash with those of other nations.

True, for instance, the Battle of Kosova, so greatly exalted by the Serbo-Montenegrins since Karadzic's time, was an important and sad event for the Slavs. However, when viewed objectively, one must concede that this battle, as specialist have not failed to remark - was not fought by the Serbs alone, but by a coalition of Balkan nations: *Bulgarians, Vlachs, and Albanians (including 10 000 Croats).* As a consequence, these nations should be imparted the merit due to them. Various sources suggest that the most numerous troops were the Albanian and that they were placed in the front rows.

_The important role of the Albanians in this battle is attested by Greek and Turkish sources: Hierax, Chronique sur l’Empire des Turcs, Sathas, Bibliotheca Graeca, I, p. 247. See also S. Pulaha, The Albano-Turkish War in Ottoman sources (in Albanian), Tirana, 1968 and Enciklopedija Jugoslavije, knj. 4, Zagreb, 1960, p. 467._
The Ottoman army was led by Sultan Murad I and the military commander Evrenos Bey. The battle began with the advance of the Serbian cavalry and Albanian infantry, which completely destroyed the left wing of the Ottoman. Problems for the Christians began when Vuk Branković betrayed and withdrew and the Ottomans were finally achieved by substantial reinforcements and were thus able to defeat the enemy army, tired and outnumbered. 

Practically the whole Serbian and Albanian nobility was exterminated on the spot along with *Albanian Princ Teodor I Muzaka* and* Serbian* *Prince* *Lazar Hrebeljanović*.

Source:_ Historia ovvero Historia turco-bizantina 1341-1462_ *Ducas*

Besides, the victory of the Turks in that battle is said to have been occasioned by the treason of Vuk Branković, Knez Lazar's son-in-law, who deserted to the Turks at the critical point of the battle with a large number of Serbs.


_At the turn of the century, an attempt was made by the Serbian intelligentzia to deny the betrayal (see A. Arnautovic, La poesie kossovienne, Paris (pamphlet, reprint from Revue You goslave, 1919)._


The important role of myths becomes evident when one thinks that the Battle of Nikopolis on the Danube, where the army of Sigismond of Hungary fought in 1395 against Beyazit, was just as decisive as that of Kosova, and perhaps as important, according to some scholars, as the very capture of Constantinople by the Turks. Yet we are heedless of its importance because of lack of myths. The Turkish victory on this battle is also due to the Serb troops fighting on the Turkish side, Beyazid being married to the sister of Stefan Lazarevic. 

_.... . This victory of Islam was to no small degree due to the Servian troops fighting on the Turkish side. The Servians recovered Belgrade, but in the long run this gain hardly compensated them for the disaster which they prepared by strengthening the Ottoman Empire," (C.N. E. Eliot, Turkey in Europe, 1965 ed. p. 41)._

_”Furthermore, in response to Turkish pressure, some Serbian noblemen wed their daughters, including the daughter of Prince Lazar, to Bayezid. In the wake of these marriages, Stefan Lazarević became a loyal ally of Bayezid, going on to contribute significant forces to many of Bayezid’s future military engagements, including the Battle of Nicopolis.”,( The Ottoman Empire, 1700–1922 By Donald Quataert, p. 26)_

As to the hero of Kosova Battle, widely sung by the Serbs in the 19th century, most people will perhaps show surprise at learning that in all likelihood he was Albanian. His name, which was not recorded in Serbian church documents - perhaps for the simple reason that he might have been Catholic, perhaps also for other motives - became known to us thanks to a casual traveler and through Turkish documents: originally Copal - which is Albanian - it was Serbized, as were at that time other Albanian names, thus becoming Kopilic. In the 18th century, Kopil, Kopilic, underwent another modification and at present is merely known as Obilic.

_Dragutin, Kostic, "Milos Kopilic — Kobilic — Obilic," Revue Internationale des etudes balkaniques, 1935, I, pp. 232-254. According to Kostic, the absence of the hero’s name from Serbian docments may be attributed to the chroniclers’ habit of mentioning merely names of well-known nobles. Evidently, Milos did not come from a prominent family. 
The Balkan word Kopil (non-Slavic) is considered by F. Miklosic (Etym Worterb. d. Slav. Spr.) and by Skok (Juznoslav Fil XII p. 142) as being of Albanian origin. In Albanian it also has the meaning of smart, skilled. Kostic has indicated two localities by that name. 
Surprisingly, Kostic attributes also to the first name of the hero an Illyro-Albanian ongin. Duje Rendic-Miosevic has shown clear evidence that some old Croatian names have an Illyrian origin: e.g. Licca, Pleto (Illyr. = Liccavus, Pletor), among many others (see D. Rendk-Miocevic, "Prilog proucavanju nase ranosredovjecne onomastike," Starohrvatska pros vj eta, ser. III, 1949, 1, pp.9-21). Considering that the Illyrians inhabited the Dalmatian coast before the coming of the Slavs, this fact might seem perfectly normal—the very name of Dalmatia is of Illyrian origin. But to attribute to Milos, which has eventually become so popular a name among the Slavs seems curious. Yet Kostic remarks that the name does not appear in Serbian documents before the 13th century and even then is not used by people of high rank. Kostic argues that Milos may be the Slavized form of the Albanian mir and osh. Kostic links the suffix osh (and ush) to Albanian. He points out that it is added to adjectives; thus bardh-bardhosh; kuq-kuqalosh; vogel-voglush, voglosh. The suffix is also used with names; thus Belush, Tanush, Mirush, etc. 
Obilic’s hypersensitiveness to suspicions expressed by others as to his word of honor (besa), also reveals, in Kostic’s opinion, his Albanian origin. Finally, Kosticc refers to Elezovic who has pointed out the cult professed by the Albanians for Obilic. 
According to Prof. S. Skendi (Balkan Cultural Studies, East European Monographs, Boulder, dif. Columbia Univ., 1980, p. 147, no. 13), M. Budimir has expressed a similar opinion in "Digenis und Marko Kraljevic," Extrait des Actes de 4e Congres international des etudes byzantines (Bul. de l’irist. archeol. bulgare, tome 10, 1936, Sofia, 1936, p. 17. — I have not been able to consult this study.)._
_“Albert Lord of Harvard University stated in 1982 that Albanian epic songs about the Battle of Kosovo were not translations of the Serbian epic songs, as was previously thought. Lord argues that the two traditions emerged more or less independent of each other. According to him, major elements of the Albanian tale of the assassination of Sultan Murad cannot be found in the corresponding Serbian accounts, while these elements can be traced to Albanian folklore. The Serbian and the Albanian traditions came into contact in the region of Sandžak, where they were fused.”…(Lord, Albert (1984). “The Battle of Kosovo in Albanian and Serbocroatian Oral Epic Songs”. Studies on Kosova. East European Monographs 155. ISBN 9780880330473)_
*Such for the Battle of Kosova.*

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## Garrick

Division of Christianity (Roman Catholic and Orthodox) is purely political in nature, the sources are exactly the same including Old and New Testaments.

There's nothing more clever to say.

...
Great thread of Byzantium is open, there could be interesting themes for discussion.

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