# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Irish-looking Tribes in Western China?

## EdZiomek

I would like to share with you what your eyes might not believe. Simon Narramore, aka 62Lofu on Flickr, has taken a series of photographs of people in an area of Western China that almost look like whole families from Dublin or London or Glasgow. While they are certainly not Irish, they certainly LOOK Irish to me, and not surprisingly, they are located close to both the ancient spice route and the Gobi Desert areas.

Maybe I should not be as surprised as I am. 

As I have repeated many times, via ancient Celtic, Greek, and Judaic influences and ancestries that all our families have, some of our families went East, some went West, and these photographs are certainly proof. 

_I further believe that the origin of Japan shared in the DNA tribal origins of central Asia, and certainly I feel kinship to Asian origins myself as I have mentioned on this website._

Simon Narramore has given us an anthropological, historical, and visual gem, but unfortunately, I can't show you them directly! 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonna...57594139866858 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonnarramore/1722175826/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonnarramore/1722887710/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonna...7600522950493/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonna...7600522950493/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonna...7600522950493/ 

We are all one family, and what a treasure!

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## Maciamo

I am not sure looks only prove a European connection, and certainly not an Irish one. Only DNA test could confirm this. There has been another case of Chinese people in an isolated village (more towards the centre) who claimed to be descended from a lost Roman legion. They also had fair eyes and more European-like traits. However DNA tests proved that it was not the case, and that their different looks was only due to a rare genetic mutation.

After all, these people in the photos are from north-west China, an area that is not Han Chinese, but Uyghur.

If the people of Xinjiang are related to some Europeans, the most likely would be the neighbouring Russians.

Some photos indicate that the people are Tajik. And many Tajiks have Russian blood mixed with Central Asian (Mongol, Turkic) one.

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## Lóstrego Galego

Tocharians (indoeuropean people and language, now extinc) were assimilated by Uyghur and turikic tribes. I want post some things about them but I don't have enough posts to do it. Tocharian languages belongs to the Indoeuropean Centum branch, the same branch of the Italic, Helenic, Germanic and Celtic families. This is a big diference between the tocharian and the other indoeuropean languages spoken arround the tocharian area. That languages belong to the Indo-Aryan family who belongs to the Satem branch, the same of the baltic, slavic, albanian and armenian family.

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## EdZiomek

Lostrego, thank you for your response.

Your location is ??? North-Central Spain. 

Are you aware that it was the Iberian Celts which invaded Ireland and gave it the Celtic legacy?

And Galiza Lugo, does that mean it is "Galicia", or Gaelic?

You must have a wonderful personal family history, can you share it with us?

I am guessing you are traditional Spanish and not Basque-Spanish?

Thank you for sharing, sincerely, and I hope to hear more from you.

Ed Ziomek

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## Maciamo

> Lostrego, thank you for your response.
> Your location is ??? North-Central Spain.


I think I can answer for him. Lugo = top north-western corner of Spain, near Santiago de Compostela.




> And Galiza Lugo, does that mean it is "Galicia", or Gaelic?


Galicia, which is the name of that region of Spain.




> I am guessing you are traditional Spanish and not Basque-Spanish?


What is "traditional Spanish" ? The Basques were the first inhabitants of Spain. Spain is composed of a mixture of ancient peoples, such as the Phoenicians and Greeks (Mediterraean coast), Romans-Italians, Iberian Celts (Center and North), Germanic Suevirs and Visigoths (a bit everywhere, but especially North and North-West), Jews, Berbers and Arabs (esp. South).

I am not sure the link between Iberian Celts and Ireland has been confirmed by genetics.

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## EdZiomek

Maciamo...I can only go with what is on the net, and the DNA results, which have been pretty extensive, but I am not doubting you in the least. But let's hope for Lostrego's opinion on this, because I think his family history might be very interesting, given the location of his home.

http://www.johnbreslin.com/blog/2004/09/05/irish-celts/
http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=3155470

The Irish and Scots may be as closely related to the people of Spain and Portugal as the Celts of central Europe, it emerged today.
Historians have long believed the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.

But geneticists at Dublinfs Trinity College now claim the Irish and Scots have as much, if not more, in common with the people of north-western Spain.

Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College Dublin, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia
gItfs well known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more,h Dr Bradley said.

gWe think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region - which isnft a Celtic region.h
gThe links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain,h he added.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberians
*Further migrations*
Sometime before 500 BCE Celtic tribes began reaching what is now Ireland and Britain. Anthropologists and geneticists believe that waves of different Celtic tribes migrated to Ireland and Britain over long periods of time. While many tribes came from the European mainland, a large number also migrated from the Iberian Peninsula.

*The Celts in the Iberian Peninsula*
http://www.worldmusiccentral.org/art...rian_Peninsula
Most Celts settled in the northwestern Iberian peninsula (Galicia, Asturias, Tras-os-Montes). In other parts of western Iberia they became known as Celtiberians. Far from home, they mixed with the local population. It took two centuries for the Romans to subdue Iberian Celts because of widespread guerrilla fighting. In the end, most of Spain and Portugal were Romanized and Latin replaced all pre-Roman languages except Basque. When the Roman Empire fell, most of Spain and Portugal were conquered by the Visigoths, except Galicia where a Germanic tribe known as the Sueves formed an independent kingdom. Galicia and Asturias in Spain and Tras-os-Montes in Portugal are currently the Iberian regions with deeper Celtic roots.

http://www.fiftythings.com/irish.history.html
*Celtic Culture*
The Celts first appeared in 600 B.C., 150 years after the founding of Rome. They crossed the Rhine and one group among them settled in present day France, becoming the Gauls. Another tribe settled in the Iberian peninsula of Spain. Some ventured to Greece where they encountered Christianity, through Paul's letters. Siblings of the Gaulish Celts journeyed to Britain as early as 400 B.C. Some of those Britons reached Ireland by 350 B.C., others who were Iberian Celts managed to gain ascendancy over the Britons. These Iberian Celts became the Irish.

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## Maciamo

> *Further migrations*
> Sometime before 500 BCE Celtic tribes began reaching what is now Ireland and Britain. Anthropologists and geneticists believe that waves of different Celtic tribes migrated to Ireland and Britain over long periods of time. While many tribes came from the European mainland, a large number also migrated from the Iberian Peninsula.
> ...
> *Celtic Culture*
> The Celts first appeared in 600 B.C., 150 years after the founding of Rome. They crossed the Rhine and one group among them settled in present day France, becoming the Gauls. Another tribe settled in the Iberian peninsula of Spain. Some ventured to Greece where they encountered Christianity, through Paul's letters. Siblings of the Gaulish Celts journeyed to Britain as early as 400 B.C. Some of those Britons reached Ireland by 350 B.C., others who were Iberian Celts managed to gain ascendancy over the Britons. These Iberian Celts became the Irish.


There are some factuals mistakes in these articles. The Celts *didn't* first appeared in 600 B.C.E., but more like 6000 B.C.E. ! They didn't reach Britain and Ireland around 500 B.C.E.but at least by 3200 B.C.E. Well, maybe it depends what you call "Celt". There is no such thing as a Celtic ethnicity, so it usually refers to the culture and language. But even that is not homogenous. There may have been a second wave of continental immigrants around 600 B.C.E., more closely related to the Gauls, but they were not the first.

As for the genetic evidence, if the R1b haplogroup is all we have, it doesn't mean much as it is the most common haplogroup in all Western Europe. What we need to do is look at the subclades and try to find links between Ireland, Scotland and Northern Spain, that would not exist in France or elsewhere on the continent. The percentage of the European population tested is much too small now to determine whether this is the case or not.

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## stuibhard

Well, we can look either ancient or modern. The Irish that I know (namely my wife) believe the term "Black Irish" refers to the survivors of the Spanish Armada, who after being thumped by the British in 1588 limped around Scotland and landed in the first Catholic country they could find...Ireland. They landed along the Galway coast and most never left.
Also, the ancient Irish word for Ireland is "Iberu" which many believe is the same root as Iberia. Of course, Galicia likely refers to "land of the Gaels" and a quick listen to the gaita and the music of that area would put the connection to bed.

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## Maciamo

> Well, we can look either ancient or modern. The Irish that I know (namely my wife) believe the term "Black Irish" refers to the survivors of the Spanish Armada, who after being thumped by the British in 1588 limped around Scotland and landed in the first Catholic country they could find...Ireland. They landed along the Galway coast and most never left.
> 
> Also, the ancient Irish word for Ireland is "Iberu" which many believe is the same root as Iberia. Of course, Galicia likely refers to "land of the Gaels" and a quick listen to the gaita and the music of that area would put the connection to bed.


The connection between Ireland and Iberia is much older than the Spanish Armada. It goes back to prehistoric times. DNA analysis have revealed a small but consistent presence of a Spanish Y-DNA haplogroup (namely R1b1c6) in Ireland, but also in Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and all the way along the Atlantic coast of France.

This may also explain the connection between "Iberia" and "Iberu", as well as "Galicia" and "land of the Gaels". I have noticed that traditional houses in Galicia are the same grey-stone houses as in Ireland, Cornwall or Brittany. Galician folkloric music is also very similar to Irish folkloric music.

It is not surprising that some dark-haired Irish people could be physically mistaken for Spaniards. I am thinking of Colin Farrell, George Clooney, or Catherine Zeta-Jones (half Welsh, half Irish), who convincingly played a Mexican woman of Spanish descent in Zorro, and does not have an ounce of (recent) Mediterranean blood in her.

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## dedondeeres

Most of the Spaniards I've known looked no different than my Irish and Irish American friends. Some are blonde with blue eyes, some have dark brown hair and green eyes, and some have brown hair and brown eyes. Sure, you'll find more blondes amongst my group of Irish friends than group of Spanish friends but in general, not that different. The few Spanish friends that I did know that looked more like they could be part Latin American were originally from the Southern region of Spain (e.g., Andalucia) where you will find more non-typical looking Spaniards. I'm sure the weather also helps to get the gorgeous tan that many of them have. And Spaniards have also mixed quite a bit with the Moors (y los Arabes) etc. But 'typical' really depends on what you grew up with/around, I suppose. 

Sadly though, the average and "typical" American I've come across seems to have this strange notion that the average Spaniard looks Mexican (indigenous American). Media and the misusage of the term "Latin" and "Hispanic" in the U.S. probably perpetuate this ignorance. But as controversial as the topic of "conquistadors" might be, the Europeans (Spaniards led by Colon) that came to conquer the Americas (though they first landed in the Caribbean Islands and discovering the Americas was on accident) were White.

A good friend of mine from Ireland once said, "We, the Irish, are of Iberian decent but the damn weather here in Ireland made us turn so pale. We really should have never left the Iberian Peninsula and the nice weather." I laughed but also made me think...how mixed are we?

In terms of Irish-looking Asians, I've known many Koreans with light hair (e.g., light brown, auburn, etc.) and most Koreans have really fair skin. I've also known some Koreans with light eyes (green, greenish hazel). Where does that come from? Perhaps because most Koreans are of Mongolian decent? Some recessive gene at play from 'the mixing' that might have happened years back through merchant routes, etc.? And the Japanese are FAR more mixed than they claim to be and I don't mean with Europeans. They did colonize a good part of Asia for centuries. Plenty of ethnic Koreans in Japan even today that are unaware of their origin. 

So what's this all mean? Who knows... but it's certainly interesting to me.

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## Maciamo

> Most of the Spaniards I've known looked no different than my Irish and Irish American friends. Some are blonde with blue eyes, some have dark brown hair and green eyes, and some have brown hair and brown eyes. Sure, you'll find more blondes amongst my group of Irish friends than group of Spanish friends but in general, not that different.


Some Irish have more Spanish-like features and are known as "Black Irish". There is an urban myth that these people descend from the survivors of the Great Armada defeated by the English. In fact DNA studies have confirmed an ancient migration from northern Spain to Ireland along the Atlantic coast of France and through Cornwall. 

Many northern Irish people have red hair, and apparently descend from Highland Scots. 

Ireland has surprisingly lots of different physical types for its size. If you have seen the movie In Bruges, you will know what I mean at once. Colin Farrell looks more Spanish, while Brendan Gleeson looks like a Highland Scot.

Add to this the Continental Celtic tribes (notably Belgian Menapii) that settled about 2,000 years ago, then the Vikings and 400 years of English "colonisation", and you have the admixture of modern Ireland.

This said, most Irish look nothing like Spaniards.




> Sadly though, the average and "typical" American I've come across seems to have this strange notion that the average Spaniard looks Mexican (indigenous American). Media and the misusage of the term "Latin" and "Hispanic" in the U.S. probably perpetuate this ignorance. But as controversial as the topic of "conquistadors" might be, the Europeans (Spaniards led by Colon) that came to conquer the Americas (though they first landed in the Caribbean Islands and discovering the Americas was on accident) were White.


Sorry to say this, but you must really be American to find the need to specify that Spanish colonists were white ! That is just so obvious. The colonisers couldn't have been the colonised. 




> In terms of Irish-looking Asians, I've known many Koreans with light hair (e.g., light brown, auburn, etc.)


Yes, that is called bleach ! No Korean or East Asian has anything but pure black hair.




> and most Koreans have really fair skin. I've also known some Koreans with light eyes (green, greenish hazel). Where does that come from? Perhaps because most Koreans are of Mongolian decent?


About all Koreans and Japanese have very white skin (like northern Europeans without the freckles and red face). The Chinese are more varied. Southern Chinese are usually darker skinned. Some northerns (especially in Manchuria) have yellowish skin. But otherwise most of white skinned.

As for the fair eyes, it is more common among Mongolians and Siberians. Koreans and Japanese have some Mongolian and Siberan blood, but fair eyes remain _extremely_ rare in those two countries (in fact I have never seen a Japanese with blue, green or grey eyes in 5 years in Japan, although light brown eyes aren't uncommon). It is more likely that the people you met had coloured contact lenses.




> Some recessive gene at play from 'the mixing' that might have happened years back through merchant routes, etc.? And the Japanese are FAR more mixed than they claim to be and I don't mean with Europeans. They did colonize a good part of Asia for centuries. Plenty of ethnic Koreans in Japan even today that are unaware of their origin.


Fair eyes in Mongolians and Chinese is almost certainly the result of a long series of admixture of various Siberian tribes with European all the way between Mongolia and European Russia. The Uyghurs of Xinjiang (North-West China) are about 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 Mongolian in origins on their paternal side*. Blue eyes are fairly common among them, and cases of actual blond hair have been observed. Keep in mind that officially those living in Xinjiang are Chinese citizens.

* If we look at the Y-DNA haplogroups of the Uygurs, about 20% belong to haplogroup R1b (the most common in Western Europe), 20% to haplogroup R1a (most common in Eastern Europe), 25% to Tibeto-Mongolian haplogroups C, D, O and Q, and the rest to Middle-Eastern and Indian haplogroups. The admixture of G, J, K, L, R2 with R1a and R1b looks typically Iranian in origins.

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## JackMack

> Most of the Spaniards I've known looked no different than my Irish and Irish American friends. Some are blonde with blue eyes, some have dark brown hair and green eyes, and some have brown hair and brown eyes. Sure, you'll find more blondes amongst my group of Irish friends than group of Spanish friends but in general, not that different. The few Spanish friends that I did know that looked more like they could be part Latin American were originally from the Southern region of Spain (e.g., Andalucia) where you will find more non-typical looking Spaniards. I'm sure the weather also helps to get the gorgeous tan that many of them have. And Spaniards have also mixed quite a bit with the Moors (y los Arabes) etc. But 'typical' really depends on what you grew up with/around, I suppose. 
> 
> Sadly though, the average and "typical" American I've come across seems to have this strange notion that the average Spaniard looks Mexican (indigenous American). Media and the misusage of the term "Latin" and "Hispanic" in the U.S. probably perpetuate this ignorance. But as controversial as the topic of "conquistadors" might be, the Europeans (Spaniards led by Colon) that came to conquer the Americas (though they first landed in the Caribbean Islands and discovering the Americas was on accident) were White.
> 
> A good friend of mine from Ireland once said, "We, the Irish, are of Iberian decent but the damn weather here in Ireland made us turn so pale. We really should have never left the Iberian Peninsula and the nice weather." I laughed but also made me think...how mixed are we?
> 
> In terms of Irish-looking Asians, I've known many Koreans with light hair (e.g., light brown, auburn, etc.) and most Koreans have really fair skin. I've also known some Koreans with light eyes (green, greenish hazel). Where does that come from? Perhaps because most Koreans are of Mongolian decent? Some recessive gene at play from 'the mixing' that might have happened years back through merchant routes, etc.? And the Japanese are FAR more mixed than they claim to be and I don't mean with Europeans. They did colonize a good part of Asia for centuries. Plenty of ethnic Koreans in Japan even today that are unaware of their origin. 
> 
> So what's this all mean? Who knows... but it's certainly interesting to me.


You are correct- there is a big misuse of the terms Spanish, Hispanic and Latin for that matter- all three have very different definitions.

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## javonoL21

The Irish feel that the Basques are direct relatives to the Irish and offer College/University courses studying the historical connections.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Most of the Spaniards I've known looked no different than my Irish and Irish American friends. Some are blonde with blue eyes, some have dark brown hair and green eyes, and some have brown hair and brown eyes. Sure, you'll find more blondes amongst my group of Irish friends than group of Spanish friends but in general, not that different. The few Spanish friends that I did know that looked more like they could be part Latin American were originally from the Southern region of Spain (e.g., Andalucia) where you will find more non-typical looking Spaniards. I'm sure the weather also helps to get the gorgeous tan that many of them have. And Spaniards have also mixed quite a bit with the Moors (y los Arabes) etc. But 'typical' really depends on what you grew up with/around, I suppose. 
> Sadly though, the average and "typical" American I've come across seems to have this strange notion that the average Spaniard looks Mexican (indigenous American). Media and the misusage of the term "Latin" and "Hispanic" in the U.S. probably perpetuate this ignorance. But as controversial as the topic of "conquistadors" might be, the Europeans (Spaniards led by Colon) that came to conquer the Americas (though they first landed in the Caribbean Islands and discovering the Americas was on accident) were White.
> A good friend of mine from Ireland once said, "We, the Irish, are of Iberian decent but the damn weather here in Ireland made us turn so pale. We really should have never left the Iberian Peninsula and the nice weather." I laughed but also made me think...how mixed are we?
> In terms of Irish-looking Asians, I've known many Koreans with light hair (e.g., light brown, auburn, etc.) and most Koreans have really fair skin. I've also known some Koreans with light eyes (green, greenish hazel). Where does that come from? Perhaps because most Koreans are of Mongolian decent? Some recessive gene at play from 'the mixing' that might have happened years back through merchant routes, etc.? And the Japanese are FAR more mixed than they claim to be and I don't mean with Europeans. They did colonize a good part of Asia for centuries. Plenty of ethnic Koreans in Japan even today that are unaware of their origin. 
> So what's this all mean? Who knows... but it's certainly interesting to me.


It is a great myth that there has been any significant amount of mixing between Arabs and Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese). The large majority of Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula during its "Moorish" period were native origin Berbers (non-Arabs). Also, you will find more blonds than you may think in southern Spain and Portugal. Check the haplogroups for Spain and Portugal. European haplogroups for the two countries combined average well over 70%. Both have substantially less Near East haplogroups than Italy, Greece and a number of other European countries. Spain and Portugal are clearly part of the "Atlantic Arc" countries.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Well, we can look either ancient or modern. The Irish that I know (namely my wife) believe the term "Black Irish" refers to the survivors of the Spanish Armada, who after being thumped by the British in 1588 limped around Scotland and landed in the first Catholic country they could find...Ireland. They landed along the Galway coast and most never left.
> Also, the ancient Irish word for Ireland is "Iberu" which many believe is the same root as Iberia. Of course, Galicia likely refers to "land of the Gaels" and a quick listen to the gaita and the music of that area would put the connection to bed.



That whole "Armada" thing is one big myth. The so called "Black Irish" / "Black Scots" have absolutely nothing to do with the Spanish Armada.

Galicia and Northern Portugal are ancient Gaelic lands.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Maciamo...I can only go with what is on the net, and the DNA results, which have been pretty extensive, but I am not doubting you in the least. But let's hope for Lostrego's opinion on this, because I think his family history might be very interesting, given the location of his home.
> http://www.johnbreslin.com/blog/2004/09/05/irish-celts/
> http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=3155470
> The Irish and Scots may be as closely related to the people of Spain and Portugal as the Celts of central Europe, it emerged today.
> Historians have long believed the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.
> But geneticists at Dublin�fs Trinity College now claim the Irish and Scots have as much, if not more, in common with the people of north-western Spain.
> Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College Dublin, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia
> �gIt�fs well known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more,�h Dr Bradley said.
> �gWe think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region - which isn�ft a Celtic region.�h
> ...


You forgot Minho (very Celtic) and Douro in Portugal. Both areas had saturated Celtic settlement, at least equal to Galicia. One of the most famous Celtic ruins (Briteiros) is in Minho province. Actually, Celts settled all over central and western Iberia. Check your history.

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## Smertrius

> You forgot Minho (very Celtic) and Douro in Portugal. Both areas had saturated Celtic settlement, at least equal to Galicia. One of the most famous Celtic ruins (Briteiros) is in Minho province. Actually, Celts settled all over central and western Iberia. Check your history.


Where did they come from?

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## asiarules

They are same as Afghans. I don't see them as Irish.  :Wary: 

I would go crazy to see someone an Irish who looks like an Afghan.  :Annoyed:

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## MOESAN

old links tie Iberia and all Atlantic coasts, but at diverse levels - 
Sorry but I see neat differences between a GROUP of 10 Spanyards of everywhere and a group of 10 Irishmen of everywhere, what does not exclude some package of common genes - all that except if somebody plays to an arbitrary selective game to abuse me -
man by man ,everything can occur, it's evident

Maciamo, I think NO LINK between Galiza/Galicia and Gaelic << Gaedhlig << Gaidel/Goidel (welsh Gwyddel, breton Gouezel) nothing to do with any *Gall- or *Gal-)

the origins of Ireland are easy to reconstruct as long we stay on general grounds - in details, their mythology is very inetresting but uneasy to decipher: some waves would have come from Iberia: which? where from? what sort of culture and language? what confidence to have??? it can do the object of some new thread - 
(Coon, who was *not* archeologist, spoke of an possible Iberian origin for Food Vessels Beakers culture in Ireland, passed later to Britain through W-Scotland)
more genrally, let's keep on without taking everytime examples upon exceptions in populations (they have some informative value fot genetics and History but cannot be taken as general rules) - 
concerning light pigmentation and East Asiatic people, let's put apart the N-W today turkic regions with a slightly dominant "europoid" genetic origin (Uygurs and others) -
the Scandinavian HGs according to a recent paper would have shared common genes for head hairs shape and teeth shapes with East Asian populations of today, attributed (for now, without no more element of proof) to a common ancestor (ME: ? a pre-Finnic-Ugric constitutive component before 2 drifts towards opposed directions???) - why not a lightening pigmentation mutation which took force in West and lost it or never prospered in East? Waiting more, I prefer thinking in infiltrations of more recent WEuropoids (I-Eans?) from the Steppes but who knows?

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