# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Macedonians

## how yes no 2

There is obviously need for separate discussion about Macedonians.... who were ancient Macedonians...who are Macedonians of today? 





> Proof? because I can prove that they were bulgarians before WW2. There were macedonian dynasties during the eastern roman empire (Byzantine), like Basil the second, which fought and won against who they call their ansestors, czar samuel ect. 
> 
> In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.


stage is yours Elias...let's see your proof that Macedonians were Bulgarians before WW2... try to base your "proof" on credible historical sources....if any...

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## Elias2

Go to your local library and take out the book _The Macedonian Conflict Ethnic nationalism in a Transnational World_ by Loring M. Danforth. This book explains well about this certain situation. Again, this naming dispute isn't about the ancient Macedonians, who were greeks, its about land claims during the balkan wars. Some quotes;

_"Competing claims to Macedonia put foward by Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece, led to the outbreak of the balkan wars in 1912. Wach state attempted to legitimate its territorial claims with arguments concerning the naitonal consciousness, ethnic identity, linguistic affiliation, and religious loyalty of the inhabitants of the area."_

"_With the establishment of an independant Bulagrian church knows as the Exarchate in 1870, Greece and Bulgaria began to compete openly for the loyalties of the slavic-speaking population of Macedonia, who had either a greek or a bulgarian national consciousness._"

"_The interwar Serbian (and later Yugoslav) government attempted quite unseccessfully to "serbianize" the slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia, who generally defined themselves as bulgarian._"

"_During World War two, Tito and the leaders of the Yugoslav communist Party adopted a new policy toward teh slavs of Macedonia. They decided to create a new nationality, the 'macedonian' nationality and they established the ;Peoples republic of Macedonia" in what had previously been known as 'southern serbia' or 'the vardar Banovina'. It was at this time that the name "macedonian" first began to be used to denote a specific ethnic or national group_"

If you don't trust this source for whatever reason there is teh Turkish Millet system of governance you could take a look at.

"_The basis of the Ottoman censuses was the millet system. People were assigned to ethnic categories according to religious affiliation. So all Sunni Muslims were categorised as Turks, all members of Greek Orthodox church as Greeks, while rest being divided between Bulgarian and Serb Orthodox churches._" (wikipedia)

*Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha for the region of Macedonia (1906)*

*Muslims* (Turks and Albanians) 423,000 (41.71%) 
*Greeks* 259,000 (27.30%) 
*Bulgarians* 178,000 (18.81%) 
*Serbs* 13,150 (1.39%) 
*Others* 73,000 (7.72%) 


*Encyclopaedia Britannica*

The 1911 edition of the _Encyclopædia Britannica_ gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (called Pomaks)Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 MuslimsAlbanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 MuslimsVlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 MuslimsJews: ca. 75,000Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims
In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia.




My conclusion, to think this "name dispute" is about the ancient macedonians is partly false. This is about the events that happened form teh balkan war until today. The anceint macedonians were draged into this dispute because they were the originators of the name macedonian.


Alexander Quote:
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos… 
As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch, 332 a-b

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## Elias2

Independent sources in Europe between 1878 and 1918 generally tended to view the Slavic population of Macedonia in two ways: as Bulgarians and as Macedonian Slavs. German scholar Gustav Weigand was one of the most prominent representatives of the first trend with the books _Ethnography of Macedonia_ (1924, written 1919) and partially with _The Aromanians_ (1905). The author described all ethnic groups living in Macedonia, showed empirically the close connection between the western Bulgarian dialects and the Macedonian dialects and defined the latter as Bulgarian. The International Commission constituted by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in 1913 to inquire into causes and conduct of the Balkan Wars also talked about the Slavs of Macedonia as about Bulgarians in its report published in 1914. The Commission had eight members from Great Britain, France, Austria-Hungary, Germany, Russia and the United States.
 
Ethnic groups in the Balkans and Asia Minor as of the early 20th Century (William R. Shepherd, _Historical Atlas_, 1911).


 
Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1918 (National Geographic)


 
Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1922, Racial Map Of Europe by Hammond & Co.


 
Ethnographical Map of Central and Southeastern Europe - The War Office, 1916, London.


The term "Macedonian Slavs" was used by scholars and publicists in three general meanings:

as a politically convenient term to define the Slavs of Macedonia without offending Serbian and Bulgarian nationalism;as a distinct group of Slavs different from both Serbs and Bulgarians, yet closer to the Bulgarians and having predominantly Bulgarian ethnical and political affinities;as a distinct group of Slavs different from both Serbs and Bulgarians having no developed national consciousness and no fast ethnical and political affinities (the definition of Cvijic).
An instance of the use of the first meaning of the term was, for example, the ethnographic map of the Slavic peoples published in (1890) by Russian scholar Zarjanko, which identified the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarians. Following an official protest from Serbia the map was later reprinted identifying them under the politically correct name "Macedonian Slavs".
The term was used in a completely different sense by British journalist Henry Brailsford in _Macedonia, its races and their future_ (1906). The book contains Brailford's impressions from a five-month stay in Macedonia shortly after the suppression of the Ilinden Uprising and represents an ethnographic report. Brailford defines the dialect of Macedonia as neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian, yet closer to the second one. An opinion is delivered that any Slavic nation could "win" Macedonia if it is to use the needed tact and resources, yet it is claimed that the Bulgarians have already done that. Brailsford uses synonymously the terms "Macedonian Slavs" and "Bulgarians", the "Slavic language" and the "Bulgarian language". The chapter on the Macedonians Slavs/the Bulgarians is titled the "Bulgarian movement", the IMRO activists are called "Bulgarophile Macedonians".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...y_of_Macedonia

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## how yes no 2

I cannot verify all this data, but I believe you that quotations are correctly transferred from those sources to this thread... however, it is questionable whether it can be the case that sources whom you quote were assuming Bulgarian identity of Macedonians where there was none...

I will focus just on this part of the citation




> [*]Bulgarians (*described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs*, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (called Pomaks)


if they are not directly named Bulgarians there was clear reason for that... in my opinion reason was that their self identity was mostly not Bulgarian, and that is what matters in issues of nationality - identity...

analysts tend to see them as Bulgarians because their language is similar to Bulgarian...however, language is not crucial part of self-identity... look at Serbs and Croats...practically same language (while Macedonian and Bulgarian are really different languages although similar), but two nations... try saying to Croat that he is Serb...or to Serb that he is Croat...

imagine that you are Greek who lives in Turkey and your Greek sounds Turkish... in my viewpoint that does not stop you to see yourself as Greek... I can listen to your good Turkish and bad Greek and claim you are Turk, but if you see yourself as Greek, than you are Greek no matter what anyone else thinks..right?

same is here... Macedonia was occupied by Bulgarians in big part of early medieval period.. naturally their language is somewhat closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian...but language does not make self-identity..




> My conclusion, to think this "name dispute" is about the ancient macedonians is partly false. This is about the events that happened form teh balkan war until today. The anceint macedonians were draged into this dispute because they were the originators of the name macedonian.


sure, but issue is that it is not really clear whether ancient Macedonians are really Greeks, as there are clues that they were not... and if they were not Greeks, than there is no reason for Greece to claim name Macedonia, is there?

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## Elias2

By all means if there are clues please post them! because all historical written and archeaological evidence points to them being Hellenic peoples. Hellenic people, or the contemporary termenology greeks, are a cultrual grouping, an ethos, rather than a ethnic identity.

On your point what they thought of themselves, more quotes form the book _The Macedonian Conflict Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World_; pgs. 63-64

_"Finally, Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a macedonian and who outspekenly and umambiguously called for macedonian linguistic and national separatism, achnowledged that a macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical developemtn. In On Macedonian Matters, published in 1903, Misirkov, referring to himself and other slavs of macedonia in the first person plural, admits repeatedly that "our fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers have always been called bulgarian" and that "in the past we have even called ouselves bulgarians" He describes "the emergence of the macedonians as a seperate slav people as a "perfectly normal historical process which is quite in keeping with the process by which the bulgarian, croatian and serbian peoples emerged from the south slav group_"

_"The political and military leaders of the slavs of macedonia at teh turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as bulgarians rather than macedonians. The political goals of the internal macedonian Revolutionary organization (VMRO) were the liberation of macedonia from the Ottoman Empire, and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonia, but VMRO's leadership was challenged by the formation of the supreme macedonian comittee in Sofia, whose ultimate foal was the annexation of macedonian by Bulgaria. Inspite of these political differences, both groups, including those who advocated an independent macedonian state and opposed the idea of a greater bulgaria, never seem to have doubted "the predominantly bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia". Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de guerre was Ahil (achilles), refers to "the slavs of macadonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention". In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply "we are bulgarians"._

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## Elias2

I kept to the point when references sources to use authors that are not Greeks or slav-macedonians, for we know they are usually filled with propaganda in one way or another. *Now I couldn't care less what they called themselves*, but they cannot monopolize the macedonian name and try to tear it apart from its hellenic past. Greeks in the province of greece often call themselves macedonian, I have relatives from that area that moved 40 years ago to canada I talk to tell me they never heard anyone call themselves macedonian as a separate national identity from Greeks.

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## how yes no 2

> By all means if there are clues please post them! because all historical written and archeaological evidence points to them being Hellenic peoples. Hellenic people, or the contemporary termenology greeks, are a cultrual grouping, an ethos, rather than a ethnic identity.


culturally, I remember reading about Macedonian king who was not allowed to participate in Olympic Games as he was classified as non-Greek...I can search for more data about that...

genetically, area of ancient Macedonia is quite different from the rest of Greece... most of all because ancient Macedonia is much reacher in R1a than all nearby Slavic countries..R1a in Macedonia, Serbia and Bosnia is according to Klyosov ancient old, much older R1a than in east Europe and Asia, all this points out that R1a hotspot found there was not made by recent Slavic settlement, but was there for long time in history... I2a2 and G are also significantly increased in areas of ancient Macedonia... but it is not provable that they were there before Slavic settlements... in fact, I believe that early Slavs were I2a2 people....while east Europe R1a are assimilated remains of Scythians...

I can accept that ancient Macedonians (and other Dorians?) were hellenized, but I do not believe they were really Greeks when they appeared in history...





> I kept to the point when references sources to use authors that are not Greeks or slav-macedonians, for we know they are usually filled with propaganda in one way or another. *Now I couldn't care less what they called themselves*, but they cannot monopolize the macedonian name and try to tear it apart from its hellenic past. Greeks in the province of greece often call themselves macedonian, I have relatives from that area that moved 40 years ago to canada I talk to tell me they never heard anyone call themselves macedonian as a separate national identity from Greeks.


thing is they never really had another name... some Slav tribes settled in Macedonia, mixed with previous inhabitants...I guess language shift happened...and they were called Macedonians due to living in Macedonia... it is not true that they are called Macedonians since WW2...in Serbia we have always called them Macedonians... issue is that we saw that as geographical origin, same as we have Hercegovci (from Hercegovina), Dalmatinci (as being from Dalmatia and not as being same as Illyrian Dalmatea), Crnogorci (from Montenegro), Bosanci (as being from Bosnia and not as national identity...Bosniak as national identity is introduced only during media war in 90s to create illusion of being autochtonous to Bosnia muslims, same as name Kosovar is invented).... those were seen as geographical identities inside same people....but in 90s it turned out that some of those people developed national identity out of geographical identity

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## Elias2

Ancient greek politics were as confusing as politics are today :) The macedons did end up participating in the olympics later on. I understand the idea that before they were hellenized they might of been something else, and probably were, but the macedonian character was born out of them being hellenized, a baptism as you will. As soon as you try to take away the greek character they stop being macedonian, and revert to that 'something else'.

I don't mind debating this, but you have to understand that the current political "name dispute" between Greece adn FYROM started from the balkan wars and not from classical greece.

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## how yes no 2

> Ancient greek politics were as confusing as politics are today :) The macedons did end up participating in the olympics later on. I understand the idea that before they were hellenized they might of been something else, and probably were, but the macedonian character was born out of them being hellenized, a baptism as you will. As soon as you try to take away the greek character they stop being macedonian.
> 
> I don't mind debating this, but you have to understand that the current political "name dispute" between Greece adn FYROM started from the balkan wars and not from classical greece.


I understand it is sensible political issue....
as if you give them right to use name Macedonians, they might claim north Greece one day... 

on other hand, it is hard for them to change name they used for themselves for centuries... some of them will rather believe that they do origin from ancient Macedonians, while just small group of Slavs migrated and settled among them... and it is not easy to know what was ratio between newcomers and old people... maybe genetics can help there, but its not easy...
e.g. suppose that they origin 80% from previous inhabitans and 20% from Slavic settlers... would they in that case, in your opinion, have right to call themselves Macedonians? where is the limit? 50%? or is it about language and culture not about origin? but if it is about language and culture, do we really know what was the language of ordinary middle and low class ancient Macedonians...

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## Elias2

> e.g. suppose that they origin 80% from previous inhabitans and 20% from Slavic settlers... would they in that case, in your opinion, have right to call themselves Macedonians? where is the limit? 50%? or is it about language and culture not about origin? but if it is about language and culture, do we really know what was the language of ordinary middle and low class ancient Macedonians...


In my humble opinion, I don't care if they call themselves macedonians, it just bothers me when I hear things like macedonians have nothing to do with greeks, they were never hellenic, just these nationalistic rhetoric. Sometimes people just have to face the facts of history, no matter how uncomforting they are. I think for most greeks, to answer your question, its the latter of the two. I want to see this stupid conflict over with, I think relations between greece and FYROM will improve greatly when they come to a compromise. This whole thing is rather embarassing to have gotten this far.

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## how yes no 2

> In my humble opinion, I don't care if they call themselves macedonians, it just bothers me when I hear things like macedonians have nothing to do with greeks, they were never hellenic, just these nationalistic rhetoric. Sometimes people just have to face the facts of history, no matter how uncomforting they are. I think for most greeks, to answer your question, its the latter of the two. I want to see this stupid conflict over with, I think relations between greece and FYROM will improve greatly when they come to a compromise. This whole thing is rather embarassing to have gotten this far.


yes, it is definitely stupid conflict.....

things are never black and white... and in this case it is clear that both sides have strong arguments regarding the name.... 

perhaps people in Balkan should try to learn to find what connects them and not what sets them apart....

e.g. why not seeing ancient Macedonians as somewhat shared legacy... 

as ancient Macedonians have been hellenic, at least their elite, and likely also the people in last stage... 

while Macedonians of today are likely to somewhat origin from previous inhabitants and thus also from ancient Macedonians.... 

it is up to politicians to try to find some compromise...

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## Regulus

> There is obviously need for separate discussion about Macedonians.... who were ancient Macedonians...who are Macedonians of today? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stage is yours Elias...let's see your proof that Macedonians were Bulgarians before WW2... try to base your "proof" on credible historical sources....if any...


That was a good idea. Well done.

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## Regulus

I don't want this to cause the thread to go off-topic, but in light of the Bulgarians being discussed in this picture, I thought that some information on the origins of that group should be added.

The region in which Bulgaria sits has been inhabited by many peoples.
The ones that were there prior to the arrival of the Huns I will leave for discussion. 

After the German uprising, in which the Gepids assumed leadership, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Huns, the remnants of these people left most of their possessions and settled in modern-day Bulgaria. The empire had fallen apart both by this battle and the earlier death of Attila. He had too many sons who fought against each other. These groups, one of which I can remember was the Sabrians, along with two others eventually came to be called Bulgars and ruled this area. This nation became slavicized following the Slavic migrations and lost its connection with the Hunnish language etc. It is today rightly considered a Slavic country.

The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

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## Garrick

> I don't want this to cause the thread to go off-topic, but in light of the Bulgarians being discussed in this picture, I thought that some information on the origins of that group should be added.
> 
> The region in which Bulgaria sits has been inhabited by many peoples.
> The ones that were there prior to the arrival of the Huns I will leave for discussion. 
> 
> After the German uprising, in which the Gepids assumed leadership, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Huns, the remnants of these people left most of their possessions and settled in modern-day Bulgaria. The empire had fallen apart both by this battle and the earlier death of Attila. He had too many sons who fought against each other. These groups, one of which I can remember was the Sabrians, along with two others eventually came to be called Bulgars and ruled this area. This nation became slavicized following the Slavic migrations and lost its connection with the Hunnish language etc. It is today rightly considered a Slavic country.
> 
> The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.


Regulus
Haplogroups of todays Macedonians are similar Serbian.

Ok in Serbia is more strongly expressed I (nearly 48%) while in Macedonia E (over 24%) is a stronger than in Serbia but this is probably because of the large Albanian minority, which accounts for 25% of the population in that country.

Nearly many Serbs once spoke the language very similar to today's standard Macedonian, and many Macedonians spoke language very similar todays Serbian, just standardization two languages has made to similar forms slowly forget. 

If someone really studied non-political background is likely to determine the current population of the country whose official name of FYROM is actually originating from Serbs, not Bulgarian, but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.

Personally I regret that there is a conflict with Greece, and I think it's partly political, and that the Macedonian leadership to be more flexible, but it is my individual opinion, I like Skoplje and other places and often I was there.

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## Regulus

> Regulus
> 
> but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.


 
I would agree with this. I had noted a number of references about Bulgarians in this case and thought that some of it should be addressed.

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## iapetoc

The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

THAT IS CORRECT REGULUS

the Makedonians as we all know from ancient is Sub-Greek nation as Iones lakedaimonioi, magna grecani, Pontioi (euxeinus pontus), Cretans etc 



that is the central Argead Makedonia started from Holy Dion (where Hercules climb olymp) 
Makednos, son of Hercules, and his sons, with help botieans push Pieri a thracian tribe to east and took their lands and establish a kingom, in AIGES (goats), later unite with Aeolians of West Makedonia, to a consultant Kingdom alliance (kings and 1 king to rule the kings) simmilar to mycenae system, Alexander was stoped but he's father Phillip took place in Olympic games as also Amyntas,
and Amyntas unite all, makedonians always expand until Phillip II took almost Greece and half Thrace,
as I say that has to do With Greek Makedonia as a region and also *A NATION*

later when Romans came they name Makedonia the area even to illyria and dardania,
but does that state makes Dardanians Makedonians?????????
*NO WAY*, *Before kossyfo war, Kossyfo was in Yugoslavia, But WAS YUGOSLAVIA A NATION??????*
today Basques are in Spain BUT ARE THEY CASTIGLIANNI????
WHEN INDIA WAS UNDER BRITISH EMPIRE WHERE INDIANS BRITISH?
NO WAY
so today Bulgarian people living in Skopje are they makedonians cause a Roman officer named a territory Makedonia????
NO WAY
ANOTHER NATION, 
*THE ROMAN PROVINCE OF MAKEDONIA WAS NOT AN ETHNICAL STATE*,
*SO DONT TELL ME A MAKEDONIAN THAT YOU ARE BROTHER TO ME CAUSE WE LIVE IN A AREA WHERE A THIRD NAMED AFTER THE NAME I GIVE TO MY NATION*,

GERMANY IS GERMANY CAUSE GERMANS LIVE THERE
POLLAND IS NAMED CAUSE POLLANDS LIVE THERE
MAKEDONIA IS WHERE MAKEDONIANS LIVE AND NOT BULGARIANS,
WE DONT WANT TO UNITE TO STATE THAT A ROMAN BAPTISE BECAUSE IT WAS EASY HIM
WE HAVE OUR ANCIENT BROTHERS

Go FIND YOUR BROTHERS THE BULGARIANS,
AND UNITE WITH THEM TO A BIG BULGARIA


TRUE MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM
sais that kick away the none Greeks (barbarians with the original meaning, not the english version) 

so inhabiting in russia does not make you a russian
how much inhabiting in Paeonia and name your self a makedonian

out of mind,

i am a mogol invader to korea, and i claim i am chinese, !!!!!!!!!

ALL THE MAPS YOU ARE SHOWING ARE ROMAN TIMES, NOT MAKEDONIAN TIMES,
CAUSE IF THE ROMANS BAPTISE YOU MAKEDONIAN< I DONT ACCEPT IT
OK PAEONIAN OR BULGARIAN OR SLAVIAN

MAKEDONIA IS ONE AND CREATED AND WAS AND IS AND WILL BE GREEK,

Now i dont care about joseph Bross Tito bullshit,
*you are an indipendent nation, we dont claim nothing from you, we treat very nice,
for your thievery, BUT IT IS TIME TO GIVE US OUR NAME BACK,
WE DONT WANT YOUR LANDS, YOU WANT OURS, SO GET LOST WE NEVER SHOW AND NEVER WANTED TO GO TO SKOPJE YOU WANT TO TAKE OUR LANDS*
MOLON LAVE 
_ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ_

it is you that say Thessaloniki Alexanders sister solunu and want to conquer 
we never said skopjie is greek
so get lost nazi 
even Yane Sandanski was a bulgarian, Friend of the Turks you have same heroes,
Alexander is ours, 



We have suffer enough of you, but we don't give in,

we revolt many times and got free from turks before you
so bye bye






*THAT HORSE HAD A NAME ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ*

*Not Bolglavata*

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## Regulus

My opinion is the following, with slight editing from first post on other thread:

Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks. They spoke it, lived it, and we can find no ethnic difference between them and other Greeks. I believe that they were a branch of Dorians, a people who also were viewed in a not-so-great light when they threw out the Achaeans long before. There possibly may have been some admixture from some others peoples but I think that Dorian Greeks were the majority.
It was not uncommon for some elitist Athenians to pretend to have difficulty distinguishing Macedonians from other Greeks, but it is more than safe so say that they knew better and did this to try to minimize Macedonian influence in Greece, which rapidly gained speed.

Slavs moved into the Balkans after the East and West Goths migrated to their respective destinations. After the depopulation of certain areas in the Balkans from those conflicts (and subsequent Avar destruction later) the time was ripe for a new and vigorous people to move in. We call these southern Slavs. The Slavs reach the Balkans in their migration by late fifth to sixth century CE. I hold that is acceptable for some of these people to refer to themselves as Macedonians. The problem occurs if they lay claim to the achievements of ancient Macedonians. 

It is common to refer to those who now live in Rome as Romans, even though few can say with certainty that their families go back in that city to the days of the Roman republic. We would make no effort to sort out those who moved in last year or in 1850 and tell them that they cannot be called Romans. We just know that the terms mean different things for different time periods.

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## iapetoc

yes but romans name and built roma,
but GREEK MAKEDONIA AND ANCIENT MAKEDONIA IS DIFFERENT THAN ROMAN,

hmmm let say it else,

since you are from the big one country,

Apache lived in texas, IS ANYBODY WHITE AN APACHE?
since you live in colorado? ARE YOU A NAVAHO?
no way
NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS ARE THEY MEXICANS?

the place they live was never Makedonian lands, the qonceuror name the area 3 times bigger than the origin

why usa say NEW MEXICO and not mexico
why canadians say Nova scotia

*DOES AN APACHE ALLOW YOU TO CLAIM THAT YOU ARE THE APACHE? AND JERONYMO WAS YOUR FATHER???*

or if you migrate from spain to USA AND THEN Nevada you became a Navaho????
the new Mexico people via wars via agreements i dont know american history
is like to tell that conqistadores when lived in Santa Elisabeta became Indians,

or if i live among ammies - quakers i am a quaker,

THIS IS NOT ABOUT A PASSPORT OR AN ID,

THIS IS PAEONIANS OR BULGARIANS CHANGE NAME TO MAKEDONIANS WHEN MAKEDONIANS EXIST. AND CLAIM TO LIBERTY ME THE MAKEDONIAN FROM MY SHELF

THEY WILL COME TO RESCUE ME FROM MY SELF,

I TOLD IS UNTHINKABLE
A BULGARIAN WHO LIVES IN PAEONIA TO SAY I M MAKEDON AND I WILL LIBERATED MAKEDONIANS FROM THE MAKEDONIANS,

does this make sence?

besides who among them is makedonian

25 % albanians 15 % serbs 10 turks and 45% bulgarians and 5 % others
and US army i forgot,

let them changes their names
cause its a casus beli,
simply we dont raise the glove
we dont want to have the borders that roman suggest we have our own via centuries
AND BLOOD GREEK BLOOD,

the fact that you immigrate to america does make you an navaho, but an american citizen

besides colombus named it WEST INDIES by mistake and ignorant,

the one lives in AmERIcA is HE AN INDIAN (from india) BECAUSE COLOMBUS NAME IT LIKE THIS??????

how do you like that
Columbus found west Indies So according to colombus YOU ARE AN INDIAN (from india) AND NOT AN AMERICAN
is that fair to you?
besides 
according the map of alexander syria is Greek
because greek occupied it for hundrends of years Syria is Greek,
if i put a map of Big MAKEDONIA-GREECE that proves that syria was greek ones does that make syria greek?
before 1948 israel did not exist,
what does that mean? israelis are palestinians?
pakistan was also india when british empire
is it ???
the subject is not political,
it is like unite 2 different nations or 3 if we also put albanians that live in Fyrom
just to make a state according the area that roman baptise,
IS THERE MORE STUPIDITY??????
like bosna and bagna luka, do you believe in the future they dont fight?
even belgium today is to be in thinking of cut to 2 vallon and flamand
which is a many years kingdom
no way man,
unthinkable 
besides here in greece we all know that war is upon us now,
after yugoslavia its our turn,
but still have the hope and the honor to fight,
soon the big war will start in balcans bigger than yugoslavia i suppose although i m not sure,

----------


## Regulus

Iapetoc, I think that you may have misunderstood my position.

To summarize it as briefly as possible, I differentiate between ancient/classical Macedonians and Modern-day Macedonians.

I believe that ancient Macedonians were mostly Dorian Greeks.

I would say that modern-day Macedonians are primarily of Slavic descent.

Both groups had languages and culture corresponding to their respective group.

My point was that it does not have to be a problem if people from Macedonia today using that name as long as they do not also claim to be the same as ancient Macedonians. The region called Calabria in Italy has been in two different locations in that country in ancient and modern day. The region referred to as Macedonia today is much closer to that of ancient Macedonia, if not overlapping it.

----------


## iapetoc

I would say that modern-day Macedonians are primarily of Slavic descent.

thank you regulus, 
*YOU HAVE JUST MAKE ME A SLAV.
WOW THANK YOU,

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, HOW YOU NAME MAKEDONIAN WHEN ANOTHER MAKEDONIAN EXISTS?

IT IS LIKE ME TELLING YOU INDIAN
OR CALL YOU A MEXICAN
IS IT OK WITH YOU????

THESE PEOPLES ARE SLAVS, THEY KILL AND BURN MAKEDONIAN VILLAGES EVEN AT WW2, 
THEY HAVE A LAND AND CLAIM MAKEDONIAN BECAUSE A TURK OR ROMAN IMBECILE draw borders as he like,

that area has a war from 600AD,
the balkan wars lasted from 1904-1916.
in WW2 also same happened,

I BELIEVE THAT THE BEST IS TO CUT TO 3
1 tettovo to albania
2 strumnitsa to bulgaria
3 kumanovo to serbia

or if they want to stay as a state better change their name,
I DONT GIVE MY NATIONAL IDENTITY TO ANYONE,

IT IS LIKE USA And manhattan
IS THE ONE WHO LIVED IN MANHATTAN A LEPANE INDIAN????

you live in New jersey,
DOES THAT MAKE YOU A MANTAES or a NARATICONCK?????
european colonists or conquerors make bordes as they like,
But did they took the nationality of locals?
*dont think so,

*THEN WHY I WILL GIVE MY NATIONALITY TO ANOTHER NATION???

the fact you live in america does not make you a american native,


*

----------


## Regulus

Iapetoc,

I did not make you to be anything.

The thread was created to provide a place where the information and conclusions can be dicussed. It was not created so that all will agree 100% with any particular person. 

I don't what else I am supposed to say. This thread will contain posts from many individuals who disagree with you on far more points of this issue than I do. The only point of mine with which you seem to have a problem is that I allow the name Macedonian to indicate two different things for two different eras.

----------


## iapetoc

leaving in An area named Delaware by Usaers , does not make you a delaware, when delaware nation exist,

all the rest is imperialistic propaganda of gun industry, and politicians wgho gain by war,

I still dont understanded what the fyromians will earn by that?

only hate and wars

BESIDES EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT THEY ARE FAKE MAKEDONIANS.

*AND CLAIMING AS BEFORE THAT MODERN MAKEDONIANS ARE SLAVS YOU JUST MAKE ME A SLAV,*

*CAUSE I M A MODERN MAKEDONIAN

*the makedonia that catherin2 was dreamingas also some others bulgarians after 1876,
and today some politicks, will never be exist, 
only by force,
we shall not admit to a state of 3 nations, cause that was roman then british, Russian and today USA politic,
to create states that are not 1 nation but many,
we have our problems, we don't want inserted ones by others who want to divine and conquer

and what language will have the state that fyromians claim?
bulgarian? Greek? cause there is no Makedonian language,
only an ancient Greek dialect 
and only a today mixed bulgarian dialect?
so create problem with lingua
which will be the prime minister?
a Fyrom or a Greek?
which will the national anthem?
the greek makedonian or the fyrom one?

you see we dont need to enter that bullshit,
simply find a name for them, without stealing my name
and co-existance

what are you trying to do people, a new 2 lingua switzerland in balkans?
or a state like belgium?

since as you say they are slavs let them name their country as yugo-slavia
or zapad-bulgaria or VestBulgaria, Paeonia, Bardaska, albano-slavia, J B TITOnia. Sandaskya
Nova-slavia, Central-Balkania, etc
the name i accept with mak in it
is *PSEUDO-MAKEDONIA* 

*AND I M NOT A SLAV
CAUSE I AM MAKEDONIAN


*

----------


## Regulus

I will not keep stating my point over and over. The "all or none" method of debate does not invite discussion or encourage others to join in.
At some point you are going to want to defer or concede to some points made by others, especially when doing so does not hurt the substance of your own argument. I know that nothing I mentioned would make those that have opposed you here happy with me, so I don't know why you need to be so upset by mere peripheral points.

----------


## Michael Folkesson

iapetoc

I agree that there is a conflict of definition that should fall out in favor of the Greek Macedonian region. But is this really as important an issue as people are making it? 

Still, the area seem to be part of historic Macedonia, and they identify themselves as Macedonians which seem to be accepted by most of the world. Would Upper Macedonia be a better name? Whatever one does they will still call themselves Macedonian. 

It can be twisted and turned and somehow everyone in this naming conflict is right one way or another. Why not accept these people as Macedonian by geography.

----------


## Elias2

vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it

----------


## how yes no 2

> vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it


Vardarska Makedonija or Vardar Macedonia 

sounds as a good compromise to me... it keeps name Macedonia so that Macedonians from FYRM are not forced to change their self-identity... and it also suggest that it is a specific area within larger area called Macedonia...

was it ever proposed by some of the sides in conflict?

----------


## Elias2

I know greece is looking for a compromise but FYROM won't have any of it. There is another round of negotiations 9th of febuary in New York, maybe they will have a breakthrough.

----------


## iapetoc

the fact is that none of populations wants a war,
except some stupid extra nationalists

many years now FYROMians came at summer time here,
the old time greeks went to ochrid and skopjie, (me 2 times)
and only some stupids push the subject,

but it is a problem. both people know that are different, but althought each blames or curses the other, *NO kills* no Terrorism (bombs) happened.
only legal demonstrations, we live in peace,

BUT WE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT
our heroes are the devils for them,
and also their heroes are the devils for us.

and about ancient Makedonian Language look at 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

the man wrote a lexicon before the problem,

----------


## Garrick

> vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it


Vardarska Macedonia is probably better name than North or Upper Macedonia, but it is evident that a solution must be found, but nobody will be able to wait forever.

The part of the problem is the current nationalist elites in Macedonia FYROM and they certainly has more flexible negotiators compared with the current.

----------


## LeBrok

So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.

I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.

----------


## Elias2

> So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
> They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
> I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
> If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.
> 
> I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.


If you take that stance you are promoting more conflict in the balkans and not solving it.

----------


## LeBrok

My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.

----------


## iapetoc

> My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
> For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
> Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.



hmmm not well informed,
1 if the ancient Macedonians were greeks, then? dissapear or slavoniazed?
little stupid? you say that must be smarter,
which smart can believe someone that say the old time the nation A is today nation B,
it is different to say that in ancient times Turkey was inhabited by greeks,
and different to say Greece is Turkey.
Now about embargo etc,
was done for 14 days and stoped,
we didnot want to start hostilities,
we believe in Freedom and not stupidity,
Beside look at it as it has,
A SERB IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SERB,
A SLOVAK IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SLOVAK,
A MAKEDONIAN IS A GREEK CAUSE HE IS MAKEDONIAN,
A PONTIAN GREEK IS GREEK CAUSE HE IS PONTIAN,

we are a nation that was shrunk and maybe today we still shrinking,
But still have sub-nationalities,
as you say the slavian Nations
Also is the Greek Nations,

the solution to let it be is not a good idea,

2 about the economic crisis in Greece is due to Humanism, and Stupidity,
every year millions of illegal immigrants enter Greece, cause of our laws and the face we look
it counted that from 2001 until today 8 000 000 pass borders,
today we feed free 2 000 000 islamic immigrants,
1 200 000 albanians enter, but due to neighborhood, we decide to give them lisence to work,
only the iraq people after USA invasion are 800 000 people,

we are at the top of criminallity,
BUT IF WE FAIL THE HALF BALKAN WILL FAIL,
cause greek corporation own the 28% of Bulgaria, and today other 300 are going to open there bussines
Greece own the 33% of FYrom Economy
Greece owns the 18 % of romania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of albania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of georgia-osetia economy,
imagine that if Greece collaps then Domino starts,

Besides the God Ares-Marsh never left from Aimos penninsula,
the theory after yugo-slavia Greece and then Romania and turkey is well known and we all know it, 
*but is it worthy?
*
soon oil wars will start,

greece-albania for Vlore oil,
Greece-turkey for aegean oil
turkey- cyprus - israel for cyprus oil -gas (very big ubder sea)
turkey bulgaria romania for dobritsa to kastamonu oil,
montenegro albania for gold silver tellurium, and the oil of elbasan area.until dalmatia,

why so much Army of UN for just human rights !!!!!

----------


## Elias2

Iapetoc there isn't going to be any war.

----------


## LeBrok

I'm sorry but the only thing that makes sense in iapetoc posts is his avatar.

----------


## iapetoc

Hahahaha you like Ερατοσθενης?

*Eratosthenes*
he and ΑΝΑΧΙΜΑΝΔΡΟΣ were my favorite,
besides i m bold

*Eratosthenes' measurement of the earth's circumference*

*
HE PROVED THAT PLANET EARTH IS A SPHERE*

centuries before Copernicus
thank god they did not burn him in fire,

Lebrok elias2 understood,
Balkan was is and will be always a melting pot,
in balkan is a very interesting oil area, but deep very deep,
the time for corp to let it out has come,
also the richest area in world fro tellurium metal, think what happened in romania with acid warm water poluttion, and you will understand.
the same way there can't be 2 Popes of rome, the same way can't be 2 makedonia.
about makedonia vardarska or upper makedonia,,,
i dont know, politicians are on negotiations, lets see,
the only double name i personally accept is slavic Makedonia.
because the problem is not the place but the ethnicity, the nationality,
they have their place we have our space,
the nationality is the problem
but is not for me to decide,

Lebrok there is rumor that wants balkans to be 18 to 23 states, 

everybody here that lives in balkan knows it,
elias2 must have heard,

----------


## LeBrok

I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?

Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.

Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.

Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?

----------


## Elias2

> I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?
> 
> Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
> Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.
> 
> Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.
> 
> Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
> Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?


Lebrok, it's not about the name, the 9 letters, its about territorial accusations based on said name by our northern neighbour. Just calling yourself macedonia monopolizes it and leads the way to claim land from Greece and Bulgaria. This is not Greek paranoia, they have rallies in skopje chanting "united Macedonia" as a slogan, and wave images in what they believe should be their country;








It might seem like the bigger guy is picking on the smaller guy, but its the other way around. For years Greece has been trying to come up with a compromise but insted they give the cold shoulder. So who is being the good neighbour here now? A neighbour that promotes propaganda against the neighbour to the south or the country that wants to find a peaceful solution with the neighbour to the north?

The atmosphere has only gotten worse since Kosovo was illegally stripped from serbia, totally ignoring serbias sovereign rights over its land by the big powers. Because of that event, it gave more steam to the "greater albania" and "greater Macedonia" movements, not to mention fuels the separation ambition of The Republic of Serbska from bosnia. Kosovo should never have happened, it was a bad example for the region. FYROM had a civil war in 1991 between the government and the albanian minority. They caught a van full of guns and ammo trying to come from kosovo into FYROM not to long ago by albanians and there was a firefight. If you had any brains, then you would guess this probably wasn't the first or the last van like this crossing the boarder into FYROM. You even have Hungary issueing passports freely now to its people living in neighbouring countries like Romania and slovakia making those governments very uneasy. These "greater Whatever" movements have to stop, if you support FYROM just having the name 'Macedonia' you arn't supporting peacefull negotiation in the region.

----------


## LeBrok

Peaceful solution about a name? I'm just talking about a name, not the territorial concerns. It's a big stretch from the name to land acquisition of other country.

----------


## iapetoc

LeBrok, its not a name,
ITS AN IDENTITY,
you lose an ID card, you get another,
YOU LOSE YOUR NAME, THEN ........
elias2 points correct,
Before we Had Yugoslavia, A BIG STATE full of many ethnicities, 6-7 NAtions,
look what happened,
Today we bosnia, WE DID NOT CHANGE BORDES!!!! so bosna today is also 2 Nations,
Today we have Kossyfopedio (kossovo-a) A Geografical state also 2 ethnocities,
that is the 'divide and conquer' rulling model,
Look where the British empire left,
British India, today pakistan, india, Bagladesh, kasmir, sri lanca etc
Look at Georgia at USSR time and today,
ossetia, Abhaz, rest georgia next to chechen, 
if you let it be then it comes to your Head,
i have friends in skopje, also serbia, bulgaria, BUT
in Greece we say 'good deals, makes the good friends'
meaning that only clear acts and words and pay proves who is your good friend,

the fact is that for us they are what ever they like, except from us the Greek Makedonians,

but for them? No, we are also makedonians as they, but we must split from Greece and unite with them, ......!!!!!!!
HOW CAN THAT BE?
TO CREATE ANOTHER YUGOSLAVIA????? To Create a new imaginary History?
A new STATE with 4 nations? Greeks Albanians Bulgarians and Serbs!!!!
HOW THAT STATE WILL STAND?
In Bosna, Croatia, Serbia the Big problem was the religion, they have similar langauge,
Serbo-Croat, dialects of a bigger lingua,
But 1 is catholic 1 is muslim 1 is Orthodox, and they had wars,
in kossovo-a was bigger, religion and language and national.
*
how you can unite 3 religions 3 languages 3 nations in 1 state*
only for satisfaction of Romans geographers
*besides look at that,
Your family name is also 10-15 letters, 
HOW WILL YOU FEEL WHEN SOMEONE FORCE YOU TO CHANGE IT? 
WHAT YOUR ANCESTORS THINK ABOUT YOU???

that 9 letters its an Identification*,

We are makedonians by blood and language,
they are makedonians cause they live in an area of an ex-Ottoman Makedonia province,

History never mentioned that Makedonians were Slavs, or they invated at 500 - 600 -800 AD.
only propaganda found that invasion,
So slavs want to create a nation in Balcans to prove what? that they were here before Serb and Bulgarian invasions? that they fight with Persian? hmmm thing about it, by having a slavian nation from ancient times simply you can claim the Peninsulla, and change History,

so who are they, they are slavs (serb -bulgars) that want to create a new nation,
they find proper to take the name after the (non owners) Turkish province of Makedonia
ok 
*BUT THEY MUST ADMIT IN THEIR CARTA OF INDΕPENDENCE (constitution),
THEY DON'T CLAIM AREA AND NATIONALITY OF GREEK MAKEDONIA
AND THEY ARE SLAVIANS,* 
That is why i personally *accept the name makedonia only* *with the determination SLAVIAN
*
Lebrok if you lose your ID card then the thief can take your money, take loans from banks, drive your car, Travel with your name, etc
THINK WHAT WILL HAPPENED, if we admit to that you say,
1 we give up upon our ancestor lethal write, 
then history will write that alexander was slavian who came from kurgan etc

BECIDES THE VIOLENT RAPE OF MAKEDONIAN HISTORY HAS STARTED,

LOOK AT MONUMENTS, THEY WRITE MAKEDON WITH K 
LOOK AT THE STUPIDITY THAT FOLLOWS THAT YOU SAY I MUST ADMIT
THEY WRITE MACEDONIA WITH C

your Id card is 10-15 letters, why you don't give it away????

*WE HAVE NOT LOST OUR IDENTITY CARD UNDER 400 OTTOMANS OCCUPATION
LOSE IT NOW????

Nations as Persons also Have ID Cards

LOOK At FIRST ORIGINAL ANCIENT MAKEDONIA 



LOOK AT ROMAN TIMES MAKEDONIA


LOOK AT OTTOMAN MAKEDONIA



IS IT THE SAME????

NO WAY, 
NO NEED TO SATISFY THE OTTOMAN BY UNITE,
ITS SIMPLE THEY WANT TO TAKE THE NAME AFTER THE OTTOMANS PROVINCE, OK
BUT LET THEM MAKE CLEAR THAT THEY DON'T CLAIM LAND AND NATIONALITY

BUT I STILL WONDER WHY SO MUCH PASSION WTH MAKEDONIA NAME,
AND NOT PAEONIA, 
WHICH IS GEOGRAPHICAL CORRECT AND FREE TO USE AND NON GREEK (other nation) AND ALSO ANCIENT AND WAS In HETAIROI Companion

*Fyrom-ians ID is that 
1) a part was the ancients Paeonians (thracian tribe) that slavonized allies of Makedonian Kingdom

2) a part of them was greek makedonians but slavonized

3) a part of them where Romans that dwell area 

4) a part of them was serbians who lived or immigrate at the times of Stefan DUSAN of Serbia (capital Skopje) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_...A1an_of_Serbia

5) a part of them was bulgarians who lived or immigrate at the times of Cymeon Of BULGARIA (Simeon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

6) a part of them are slavians that immigrate at Ottomans Times

7) a part of them were people that lived in Greek Makedonia at 1948 and change country to follow the Communist party, (a big child gathering by communist party was send to communist Yugoslavia just for political reasons)
'The removal of children from Greece to countries of the Socialist States was another highly emotive and contentious issue. "About thirty thousand children were forcefully taken by the DSE from territories they controlled to Eastern Bloc countries" as described '
Also rebels-soldiers from EL.L.A.S and N.O.F allies
the total immigrations is estimated 70 000 people to Yugoslavia and from them 45 000 to Fyrom
A total estimation of 150 -200 000 Greeks communist to all East Block countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_civil_war

a small part of ELAS (comunists) lives even today in the areas was given to them By east Block
another part returned back to Greece
a 3rd part changed nationality and recognize them selves as macedonians, 
they mainly live in Australia, Fyrom, Serbia and other Diaspora areas, 


Their common memories, other from ottoman, other from WW1, other from civil war,
as also the language they have, and the heroes they have, can surely bound them to a Nation
But it is different with the Greek Makedonian nation,

----------


## Elias2

> Peaceful solution about a name? I'm just talking about a name, not the territorial concerns. It's a big stretch from the name to land acquisition of other country.


The name and the territorial concerns go hand in hand. Read my last post above more carefully (look at that giant sign more carefully in the pic I posted)

----------


## iapetoc

Lebrok watch carefully the down videos

*the Fyrom-ian view*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqBsJvpfzM

watch 2:09 min carefully

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpSzl...watch_response

watch at 5:32

Now watch the truth, Greek view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB3AL...eature=related

watch at 1:014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwEY...eature=related

what Macedonians, simply they use the name that J B TITO gave them,
and they are Bulgarians,

*THAT IS THE TRUTH*,
the old Russian way to exit to Aegean sea, from Catherine II of russia they wanted not to avoid Turkish Hellespont , and push Bulgarians to Aegean,
watch the videos carefully,

if you want more tell me to send you,

Look their heroes all are Bulgarians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIqM...eature=related


Look at this video, Fyromian Nationalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo47z...eature=related

WHATCH CAREFULLY THAT, IT IS TRUTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhQA7...eature=related

*they change the name of the children so they cant find their roots,
and turn them against greece.


ONE OF THE BIGGEST CRIMES OF TITO, COMMUSTISTS ETC,
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOiHq...eature=related

watch carefully 7:13 min
the True is that that Fyrom was build by Greekand Bulgarians claims to the region.
Tito and communists grab the chance, and create something imaginary, which today is real,
these people know that, and they live in a dream, of a home, their roots,
some big guys promise them the Big Makedonia as in the map, but that is an imaginary country,
so they don't know how to act, even who are they,
and they create and live in the lie of Alexander was a slavian,
How many people are they, lost in Slavian and communistic propaganda? 

As you see Even UN afraid to enter the search for the children,
Why to make war with these people? 
Why to bring them more sorrow?
then *WHO IS BEHIND THE PROPAGANDA OF THE UNION???*

find out your self

I know a man, very old, 
in 1978 find his sister in skopje, in1983 his brother in romania, and the same time his other sister in Skopje and his other sister in Australia
he was lucky cause when gegs and NOF came and burn village he was out on the plains with the sheeps.
from 1948 to 1978 .... 30 YEARS 30 000 tears
*
J B TITO the Herod of 20th Century

*

----------


## LeBrok

No, it's just a freakin 9 letter name that they want to use. 
iapetoc, if we change your name to "whatever else" will you be a different person? Will your character change? Will your look change? You'll be exactly same person with same trillions of cells, talking the same things over and over on this forum.
We won't be even confused who you are because you will tell us this in advance.

The rest looks for me like one big national Greek paranoia.

----------


## iapetoc

thank you again Lebrok

first you make a me slavian, now a paranoid
thank you very much,
tell them its 9 letters, not to use it,
*your car license plates is also some numbers,
why don't you change them???*

----------


## Garrick

> No, it's just a freakin 9 letter name that they want to use. 
> iapetoc, if we change your name to "whatever else" will you be a different person? Will your character change? Will your look change? You'll be exactly same person with same trillions of cells, talking the same things over and over on this forum.
> We won't be even confused who you are because you will tell us this in advance.
> 
> The rest looks for me like one big national Greek paranoia.


LeBrok
Paranoia exists, but but in a completely opposite side.

Current Macedonian (FYROM) elite in a country that is in a difficult economic position find a solution how to distract.

The campaign is "nationalism and antiquity".

One can not believe in what turns Skopje, by 2014 it will be a city full of statues.

Balkan Insight writes:

"The government submitted its 2011 draft budget of EUR 2.6 billion to the parliament on Monday. In the draft capital investments are increased from 15 to 29 per cent to help the economy stay healthy.

Although the details of the proposed budget have not been released, it is widely expected that significant portions of these funds will be directed at carrying out the controversial “Skopje 2014” revamp of downtown Skopje, which includes a number of massive statues."

To solve life's questions has no assets but because statues are progressing at full steam.






Antiquity is everywhere, in order to the present false image that todays Macedonia (FYROM) is same as Ancient Macedonia.

Of course from such a policy is not surprising this demonstrations:



These are clear territorial requirements for other states and someone can be quite logical to interpret taking the name of ancient state is for the purpose of these requirements.

----------


## Regulus

I confess that I was unaware of such an effort. Without seeing that, I would have thought that any such claims, like those I mentioned, would have been restricted to outrageous claims of the pamphlet type or put into textbooks at most.

I had no idea that so much capital was being directed towards building what amounts a whole infrastructure of a veneer to support their claims.

Talk about an "opiate of the masses"

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## DejaVu

*Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.*

Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.

*And many here have already broken against the rules of the forum.*
*(4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations.*

*Close the tread or get a warning. New tread is needed to continue with the unsolved arguments. Maciamo its up to you to do your job now.*





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## Garrick

DejaVu
I'm so sorry that you misunderstood post.

I quoted the website Balkan Insight, to understand, you should know what kind of site is it. Balkan Insight is very serious international site and not transmitted through anyone's nationalist propaganda. 


www.balkaninsight.com/en/static-page/balkan-insight

"Balkan Insight is the leading news site covering the Western Balkans Region. Our correspondents are drawn from across the former Yugoslavia and Albania, Bulgaria and Romania and our site is widely regarded as the only source of balanced reporting providing copy in English to international journalistic standards.

...
Our writers include respected authors and commentators on the region, including Tim Judah, author of the seminal work on the conflicts of the 90s, 'The Serbs', Kenneth Morrison, Senior Lecturer in Modern East European History at De Montford University and author of 'Montenegro: A Modern History' widely recognised as the leading work on the subject, Matthew Parish, formerly the Chief Legal Advisor to the International Supervisor of Brcko, and author of 'A Free City in the Balkans: Reconstructing a Divided Society in Bosnia' and Marcus Tanner formerly the Independent's correspondent for the region and author of 'Croatia: a Nation Forged in War'.


We also publish commentaries and opinions from international political and government figures.  Our own team of correspondents and editors have won many national and international awards including an Overseas Press Club (USA) and Human Rights Watch Award, CEI SEEMO Award for Investigative Journalism (2009 and 2010), Association of Professional Journalists of Kosovo Best Print Online Story Award (2006) United Nations Development Program (UNDP), Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and Kosovo Anti-Corruption Agency Journalism Prize (2006)."



Here you can read the full article:

www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-should-freeze-monument-frenzy

You can read more reviews of Macedonians and Albanians about such spending (in this and other articles of Balkan Insight):

Dafina Trenkovska

"Only in Macedonia the people live in poverty and the authorities throw millions on splendor."

Post is fully in line with the theme as it comes to construction of ancient statues, ie. search links current elite in Macedonia FYROM with ancient Macedonia.

----------


## iapetoc

I really wonder, except of Alexander did they also make Slavian Aristotle?
King Phillip II, or Olympias, 
oh God, someone must inform these people about trough.

----------


## Elias2

> *Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.*
> 
> Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.
> 
> *And many here have already broken against the rules of the forum.*
> *(4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations.*
> 
> *Close the tread or get a warning. New tread is needed to continue with the unsolved arguments. Maciamo its up to you to do your job now.*
> 
> ...


Nothing here is factual? everything here is factual, and yes we talk about history alot too. It's not the propaganda that you grew up with I give you that, it's the truth.

----------


## iapetoc

he is talking to me
cause i used links from youtube

----------


## LeBrok

> *your car license plates is also some numbers,*
> *why don't you change them???*


Often when I buy a new car I keep old license plate from previous car. Car changes but number is the same, imagine that! Who cares, it's just a number, right? What matters is the car and not the license plate number.
Thanks for helping me. :)

Just to be understood. I'm not claiming Macedonians are good, greeks are not good. There is much bull shit in any country. All Balkan countries are spewing their own propaganda, and complain about the others propaganda. I can't even find one innocent country here, at least partially.

I'm talking about only Macedonia name, that's all.

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.*
> 
> Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.


DejaVu,
Do you want to tell us that settlement of all the Slavic tribes in Macedonia on the map bellow is invented and that instead ancient Macedonians lived there? If you claim that those Slavic tribes are in fact ancient Macedonians (which perhaps might be the case), burden of the proof is on you. If you have arguments, you will respond to this. If you do not have arguments, you should rethink about the meaning of word propaganda...

----------


## Marianne

> Often when I buy a new car I keep old license plate from previous car. Car changes but number is the same, imagine that! Who cares, it's just a number, right? What matters is the car and not the license plate number.
> Thanks for helping me. :)
> 
> Just to be understood. I'm not claiming Macedonians are good, greeks are not good. There is much bull shit in any country. All Balkan countries are spewing their own propaganda, and complain about the others propaganda. I can't even find one innocent country here, at least partially.
> 
> I'm talking about only Macedonia name, that's all.


What I don't understand LeBrok is why you insist that they should get the name. According to what you say it is just a name so why should we give up the name we have been using for thousands of years? Why shouldn't they give up the name and use something else? After all it's just a name you say and historically the name is ours...

If you happen to have the same name and last name as somebody else then you have an ID number that tells you apart from each other. If you didn't have that ID number or some other form to differentiate yourself then the other guy would be able to come to your house and claim it along with anything else you own. Would it also be fair to you that someone who wants to change his name legally to yours then demands that you no longer have the right to call yourself with your rightful name?

If they get to be named Macedonia, and not Vardaska Macedonia or North Macedonia or Upper or whatever, they will claim every other land called Macedonia (which is 3 times their size )and that is Greek lands mainly and also Bulgarian. You saw the pictures above with flags depicting one big united Macedonia as one nation. They want to expand and getting the name is the biggest step.

Not every country is lucky enough to border with only one country in peace, like yours. We have big issues here in the Balkans...

----------


## LeBrok

So how do you want to solve big Balkan issues without compromising, giving up, accommodating? There is no other way to solve these problems.
And look, you claiming to be ready to "negotiate" and work on problems with Macedonia, but you stuck even on stupid name.


PS. You always now a person or nation, not by what they say or promise, but truly for what they do, by their actions.

----------


## iapetoc

hmmmm

Lebroc Greece build many small factories, Greece build and construct telecomunications there, Greece imports goods, Greece helped them to pass the economical shock, of falling east europe status qvo, 
they know it, and they accept it, 
the name does not stop both countries to trade and visit,
but the name is an step to better relations without claims etc,

----------


## Elias2

> So how do you want to solve big Balkan issues without compromising, giving up, accommodating? There is no other way to solve these problems.
> And look, you claiming to be ready to "negotiate" and work on problems with Macedonia, but you stuck even on stupid name.
> 
> 
> PS. You always now a person or nation, not by what they say or promise, but truly for what they do, by their actions.


Compromising, giving up, accommodating? Greece is doing all of these things by letting them use the name macedonia but making sure they add some kind of prefix to the name. Vardar Macedonia, Vardarska Macedonia, Northern Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Slavo-Macedonia, New Macedonia, these are all compromeses. It is FYROM that is not compromising, giving up, or accommodating the concerns of greece which stem from the propaganda their government deploys on its people which is highlighted throughout this discussion. It is illegal in FYROM to have scientific study of the origins of their people, they have something to hide (they were bulgarians, and fought for bulgaria in the balkan wars). Lebrok you are starting to have a very double standard tone in your opinion of this issue, saying greece should do more to comprimise. Greece is already accommodating FYROM's concerns, maybe its time FYROM do the same.

----------


## LeBrok

OK then, show me any international document that states that Macedonia name belongs legally to Greece. Is name Macedonia registered as Trademark or with Rights Reserved, or any other international organization that controls ownership of names?
Is Macedonia braking any international law when calling itself Macedonia?

----------


## DejaVu

*Dont bother to comment in this tread. Forum rules are broken and all who continue with the discussion will soon find out its irrelevant.*

*Greeks are afraid thats why they started to talk about politics to hide the real truth.*
*Its not only about the name of the country its also about the identity renaming the language and people thats why no solution in the name issue and it have nothing to do with territorial claim.* 

Matthew Nimitz proposed that the Northern Greek region of Macedonia be renamed.

_The UN mediator for the Macedonian naming dispute has just proposed in recent talks that rather than Macedonia (the country) be renamed Macedonia region in Greece should be._ 

Since that none of the compromises involving the country of Macedonia' name were acceptable to Greece. Only Greece is the one with a problem with the name maybe it would be easier for them to change the regions' name to avoid confusion.


*NORTHERN GREECE - Region of Macedonia was known as that till 1988. So going back to the old name should be simple. The name Region of Macedonia in Greece did not exist before year 1988.*

*There is No Antique, Slav, or Greek Macedonians only Macedonians and no Macedonians.* 
*Go back to your real name fake greeks and now fake macedonians we dont need your fake identities.*

----------


## Elias2

> OK then, show me any international document that states that Macedonia name belongs legally to Greece. Is name Macedonia registered as Trademark or with Rights Reserved, or any other international organization that controls ownership of names?
> Is Macedonia braking any international law when calling itself Macedonia?


I showed you enough to detail why they are not macedonians, if you have to use bureaucracy to help define a country you know something in wrong. Greece got its macedonia in the balkan wars of 1912-13. The 'macedonians' of FYROM at that time were proud bulgarians. After brainwahsing commmunist yugoslavia under Tito and later the nationalism that erupted form the breakup of said Yugoslavia, they called themselves Macedonians and then proceded to lay land claims on greece because of said invented nationalism of the 'ethnic macedonians' as shown in this discussion. If you support FYROM that they can call themselves just Macedonia you support its land claims on its neighbour. You can do whatever you want, its your opinion on the matter, just know you are not looking for peaceful resolution to this dispute, nor do you care about historical accuracy at all. It won't bother me though, because as a history major I feel it nessecary that history is not turned into a commmodity that can be bought or sold.

----------


## Elias2

> *Dont bother to comment in this tread. Forum rules are broken and all who continue with the discussion will soon find out its irrelevant.*
> 
> *Greeks are afraid thats why they started to talk about politics to hide the real truth.*
> *Its not only about the name of the country its also about the identity renaming the language and people thats why no solution in the name issue and it have nothing to do with territorial claim.* 
> 
> Matthew Nimitz proposed that the Northern Greek region of Macedonia be renamed.
> 
> _The UN mediator for the Macedonian naming dispute has just proposed in recent talks that rather than Macedonia (the country) be renamed Macedonia region in Greece should be._ 
> 
> ...


Source? because FYROM has never proposed any compromises in the past. If you want to talk about politics go right ahead, I'm waiting my friend ;)

----------


## DejaVu

*What details? You mean your fake conclusions?*

This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.

It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.

*Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population.* I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?

Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.

In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla: 
............ the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's *population according to religious affiliation*, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet




*There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?*

*http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ot...tatistics.html*
*Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"*

In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide. 
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question". 
*Statistics without "Macedonians"*
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them. 
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
*Macedonia's Districts*
*Greeks* 
*Bulgarians*
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227 
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283 
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452 
172,735 

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
*Muslims* 
423,000
*Greeks*
259,000
*Bulgarians*
178,000
*Serbs*
13,150
*Others (Jews)*
73,000

However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their _religious_ background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at _that_ moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered _Muslims, Jews,_ and the _Christian_ Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows. 
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
*Turks* 
2,000
*Greeks*
1,341,000
*Bulgarisants*
77,000
*Others (Jews)*
91,000

But this map was _submitted_ to the League of the Nations _by the Greek government_ and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations _had not visited_ Aegean Macedonia and did not participate _at all_ in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. 
*Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:




_balkan views_*Greek* 



Nikolaides
1899
*Bulgarian*
Kenchov
1900
*Serbian*
Gopchevich 
1886 



Macedonian Slavs454,000



-
- 



Serbs -



400
1,540,000 



Bulgarians-



1,037,000
- 



Greeks656,300



214,000
201,000 



Turks and others576,600



610,365
397,020 
Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence. 
*Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics: 




_neutral views_*German*



Dr. K. Ostreich
1905
*Austrian*
K. Gersin 
1903
*English*
Andrew Rousos 



Macedonian Slavs*1,500,000*



*1,182,036*
*1,150,000* 



Serbs -



-
- 



Bulgarians-



-
- 



Greeks200,000



228,702
300,000 



Turks and others550,000



627,915
400,000 
Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population



Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks. 

Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show. The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania". As at the beginning of the 20th century, the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent and non-government organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians.
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified: 
_"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..."_ and: 
_"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language"._
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language. 
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
_"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,__"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"_
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.

The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians. 


*YOU GREEKS ARE WELCOME ANY TIME YOU WANT YOU GOT 0 RELEVANT INFORMATION.*
*PLEASE POST MORE ABOUT TITO AND BANOVINA AND MAYBE MORE FAKE STATISTICS.*

----------


## DejaVu

*The Origin of the Slavs by Joseph Skulj October 13, 2004*
The following two, articles, courtesy of Joseph Skulj, contain very important information on the origin of the Slavs.

"Slavs have been known by many names during the historical period. However, genetically they are descendents of populations that sought refuge in the Balkans and Ukraine during the Last Glacial Maximum approx. 20,000 years ago. 
In the attachments (marked ITEM 2) is an article which will appear in the Sept/Oct issue
of 'The Voice of Canadian Slovenians/GLASILO kanadskih slovencev', which shows a genetic continuity between Veneti and the people in the Balkans. 
Also included in the attachments (marked ITEM 1) is a letter to Prof. 
Curta who is of the opinion, that Slavs are a 6th century invention."



2004-10-13

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
11 Westacres Dr.
Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7
[email protected]

Prof. Florin Curta Department of History University of Florida

Re: The Making of the Slavs

Dear Prof. Curta:

*The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half*
*of its land mass?* 
Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated? 
Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?

The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests
that you have found the answer. 
Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent. 
I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.

Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book. 
While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins. 
You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire". 
This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day. 
Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin. 
Based on archaeological evidence,scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices. 
There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.

Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy. 
For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the
maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans. 
They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe: 
Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%. 
And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East. 
Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade. 
In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.

Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of
the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains. 
Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians. 
This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.

The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others
(2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and
Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %. 
They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). 
It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. 
The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency
30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser
ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47
%, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM. 
The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.

Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central
European origin of the Eastern Slavs.

Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.

Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan. 
The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.

Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages,
the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.

This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb: "to be"

PIC 1
It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with
the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many
lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.

It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the
origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with
the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic
Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic
skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east. 
Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach. 
Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.

Yours truly,

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.

ITEM 2

ETRUSCANS, VENETI and SLOVENIANS: 
A Genetic Perspective

(J. Skulj P.Eng. The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada. 2004-10-5) POVZETEK
Genetske primejave Etrušcanov in današnjih Slovencev ka?ejo na znatne sorodnosti. Ertušcanski primerki so vzeti od okostnjakov--njihovih veljakov--iz grobnic, nastalih med 1. in 7. st. pr. Kr.. 
V te primerjave je vkljucenih 5 okostnjakov iz mesta Adria, ki je v pokrajini Veneto-v rimski dobi pa je bila Adria v provinci Venetia et Histria. 
Genetsko najbli?ji Slovencem so prav ti ~2,400 let stari okostnjaki iz Adria; kar 4 od 5 (80%) ima genetske vrste ki se sedaj najdejo na Balkanu.
Sedaj ~20% Slovencev nosi genetske vrste ki so prisotne pri ~2,400 let starih okostnjakih iz Adria. Tako se genetski podatki skladajo s teorijo kontinuitete na ozemlju Slovenije-in podpirajo Venetsko teorijo, ki zagovarja sorodnost Slovencev in Venetov.

INTRODUCTION

Analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of modern populations has become a useful tool for human population studies and for reconstructing aspects of evolutionary history. The maternal mode of inheritance of the mtDNA, allows it to
be used for inferring the pattern of prehistoric female migrations and peopling of different regions of the world. It is now technically possible to validate these analyses by directly studying the DNA of ancient people (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).

Vernesi et al. obtained fragments of well preserved skeletons from Etruscan necropolises, covering much of the Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to
2nd centuries B.C.) and geography. The tombs typically belong to the social
elites, so the individuals studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. The ancient human remains came from the following sites: Adria,
Volterra, Castelfranco di Sotto, Castellucio di Pienza, Magliano and Marsiliana, Tarquinia and also Capua. Two cities, Adria in the Po valley and Capua in Campania, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory. 
In Adria the hybridization with the Veneti may have occurred (Vernesi 2004).

Vernesi et al. compared the mtDNA results obtained from the ancient remains to
a number of modern populations. Unfortunately, they did not take into account the genetic studies of Slovenians ( Malyarchuk 2003), who are geographically relatively close to Adria.

The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem
to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have
disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns,villages and farms had been completely lost. 
It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest. 
The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east. 
The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south. 
It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).

The Veneti are also one the historic peoples, subject of many discussions and debates, but who were more widespread than the Etruscans. 
They were present in many lands (Mogentale-Profizi 2001): Veneti in Paphlagonia -northern coast of present day Turkey-were mentioned by Homer in 9th cent. BC., Veneti in
Illyricum (Enetoi) on the lower Danube and in the upper Adriatic, were mentioned
by Herodotus in 5th cent. BC:, Veneti in central Europe mentioned by Tacitus and Pliny the Elder, Veneti in Gaul were mentioned by Caesar, and Veneti in Latium who are referred to as Venetulani by Pliny the Elder. The Veneti and
Etruscans appear to be related. However, Adria was in the 10th Roman province
'Venetia et Histria' until the downfall of the empire. 
There is historical, linguistic and topographic evidence that present day Slovenians are indigenous to their land and descendents of the Veneti (Šavli 1996).

DISCUSSION of GENETIC STUDIES

In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them. 
Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans. 
Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana. 
The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).

Comparing the results of Vernesi et al and Malyarchuk et al, it becomes apparent that, the present day Slovenians, carry more than just CRS and 16126 'Etruscan' mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes found in the Tuscans. 
Twice as many 'Etruscan' haplotypes have been found in Slovenians than in Tuscans, namely: CRS, 16261, 16223, 16311. 
These were found in skeletal remains from Adria, Magliano/Marsiliana and also from Volterra. Two additional haplotypes from Adria, 16126 and 16129, are similar to Slovenian haplotypes, but the Slovenian haplotypes differ from the 'Etruscan' ones of Adria, by an additional substitution;
16069-16126 and 16129-16304. However, haplotype 16129 without the 16069
substitution is found in Bosnia. 
This leaves just one haplotype out of five, namely,
16126-16193-16278, where no similar haplotype is found in Slovenia. 
However, this 16126-16193-16278 haplotype is similar to that found in skeletal remains from Capua at the southern limit of Etruscan influence where hybridization with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers may have occurred (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).

The root type 16069-16126 HVS1 sequence, present in ~8% of Slovenians, is very diverse and may represent a trace of Neolithic (new Stone Age at the beginning of agriculture) migration from the Middle East (Malyarchuk 2003). Haplotypes CRS, 16223, 16261 and 16311 are carried by ~17% of Slovenians. They belong to haplogroup H, which is estimated to be ~20, 000 years old; this haplogroup is the most common one in Slovenians at 47% (Richards 2000, Malyarchuk 2003).

Adria in Veneto

Focusing on 5 haplotypes, CRS, 16126, 16129, 16223, 16126-16193-16278
found in skeletal remains from Adria, which was part of Venetia et Histria during
the Roman era,.(Adria is even now located in Veneto, Italy), and comparing them
to the present day populations, we find:

--CRS in Slovenians at 13% (Malyarchuk 2003), in Europe at 24% (Richards
1996)

--16126 is found as 16069-16126 in Slo at 8% (M), in Eu 16069-16126 is at 7%
(R)

--16129 is found in Bosnians (Bos) at <2% (M), in Russians at 1% (M1) in
Basques at 9% (R); in Slo it is found as 16129-16148-16223-16391 and 16129-
16223-16391 at 2% (M).

--16223 is found in Slo at 1%, elsewhere in Eu only in South Germans and
Ukrainians (M)

From the above comparison, it can be seen, that there is a genetic continuity between ancient populations as attested from the skeletal remains found in Etruria proper and especially between those found in Venetia and the present day Europeans. While Tuscans share 2 haplotypes with the Etruscans, Slovenians and Bosnians share 3 haplotypes. It should also be noted that 2 additional Etruscan haplotypes from Adria in Veneto, differ from the Slovenian haplotypes by one to three substitutions. Considering the evidence, this shows the relatively strong genetic mtDNA relationship between ancient Veneti and modern day Slovenians.

In addition to the haplotypes in ancient Veneti from Adria, Slovenians also share haplotypes with the skeletal remains of Etruscans from Etruria proper, namely
from Volterra (Vo) and Magliano/Marsiliana (M/M). Furthermore,Russians and

Poles share one lineage with Castelfranco di Sotto (CS) not found in the
Slovenian sample.

--16261 of Vo is found in Slo at 1% (M), in Eu at <1% (R).

--16311 of M/M is found in Slo at 2%, in Bosnians at 7% (M), in Eu at 5% (R)

--16126 of M/M is found in Slo as 16069-16126 lineage at 8% (M) in Eu at 7%
(R).

--CRS of M/M is found in Slo at 13% (M), in Eu at 24% (R).

--16189-16356 of (M/M) is found in Poles at 0.5%, Russians at 0.5% and
Germans at 0.4% (M1)

Here again, no abrupt differences are seen between skeletal remains from
Etruria proper and the present day Slavic populations in the Balkans. Richards et al., in their study of 520 individuals from Europe, where the Slavic populations were not included, did not detect in the 16223 haplotype, which present in skeletal remains from Adria, nor has it been found in a sample of modern Tuscans (Richards 1996, Vernesi 2004), but is has been found in Slovenia, South Germany and Ukraine (Malyarchuk 2003).

The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-
50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated
in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000
years ago. 
This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000). 
Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques
(6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2
co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b*
occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in
the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..

Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern
Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population
(Mogentale-Profizi 2001). 
Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).

What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the
Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans
(Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the
Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets,
but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).

*CONCLUSION*

*There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.*

*Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land*
*as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains*
*of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.*

*Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma?ic "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).*

REFERENCES

Barbujani G (1997) DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am J Hum Genet
61:1011-1014.

Barbujani G, Bertolle G (2001) Genetics and the population history of Europe. PNAS vol. 98 no.1:22-25.

(M) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Drobnic K, Miscicka- Sliwka D (2003) Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Ann Hum Genet 67: 412- 425.

(M1) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Wozniak M, Misicka-Sliwka D (2002) Mitochondrial DNA in Poles and Russians. Ann Hum Genet 66:261-283.

Mogentale-Profizi N, Chollet L, Stevanovitch A, Dubut V, Poggi C, Pradie MP, Spadoni JL, Gilles A, Beraud-Colomb E (2001) Mitachondrial DNA sequence diversity in two groups of Italian Veneto speakers from Veneto. Ann Hum Genet
65: 153-166.

Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E and 34 others (2000) Tracing European
Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251-
1267.

Richards M, Corte-Real H, Forster P and 7 others (1996) Paleolithic and
Neolithic Lineages in the European Mitochondrial Gene Pool. Am J Hum Genet
59:185-203.

Rootsi S, Magri C, Kivisild T and 42 others (2004) Phylogeography of Y- Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe. Am J Hum Genet 75:128-137.

Šavli J, Bor M, Toma?ic I, trans. Škerbinc A (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Wien, Boswell: Editiones Veneti ISBN 0-9681236-0-0. pp.80, 197- 199, 344, 443, 501.

Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ and 14 others (2000) The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science vol.290 10 November.

Vernesi C, Caramelli D, Dupanloup I, Bertorelle G, Lari M, Capellini D, Moggi- Cecci J, Chiarelli B, Castri L, Casoli A, Mallegni F, Lalueza-Fox C, Barbujani G
(2004) The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study. Am J Hum Genet 74: 694-
704.

Wellard J (!973) The Search for the Etruscans. London: Sphere Books Ltd. ISBN
0 351 18677 8. pp.11,113.

----------


## iapetoc

Dejavu 


*IS THAT YOUR SYMBOL?*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0zh...eature=related

look at 0:23

*how many flags you change???????*
*
we are here from 808 BC when we kick Pieri-thracians
KARAMOS FIRST KING
MAKEDONIAN DYNASTY TOTAL GREEKS*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzfW...eature=related

Alxander was Greek not Fyromian

Near to the East in a part of Ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Makedonia was born a king ....
*IRON MAIDEN*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vf...eature=related

you even lie about *ROSETA STONE*
which is demotic EGyptian, just to prove, you had another language,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgcMi...eature=related

DEjaVU TELL US OFFICIAL OPINION OF TSAR SAMUEL IN FYROM?
you even make tsar samuel of Bulgaria a Fyromian, and that lead Bulgarian to demonstrations,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5hp...eature=related
*WAS SKOPJE BULGARIA AT ST STEPHAN TREATY???? 1878*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKTI...eature=related

*If as you said we became makedonians at 1988*
*THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE ALL GREEK REGION MAKEDONIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oc5lTaa9HY*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaK4ZpEnYto

*they fought for Makedonia to be free from Slavian* *from 1878*
*
and if you want Byzantine times, then remember Boulgaroktonos Vasil II
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Bulgaroktonos
*maybe the Makedonian dynasty in Byzantine was also Fyromian*

Well History is not fake, simply someone is trying to change it,

*WE WERE, WE ARE, AND WE WILL BE HERE TO PROVE AND SAY THE TRUTH*

_from 808 BC when our first King Karamos establish our State WE ARE HERE SLAVIANS,

You are NO GREEK NO MAKEDONIAN YOU ARE A SLAV WITH BIG I2a2 HAPLOGROUP

_*ETRUSCANS CRETAN LIDYANS AEGEANS SPEAK TYRRSENNIAN BEFORE ROMAN,
NOT SLAVOMAKEDONSKI, 
EVEN ATHENS SPOKE TYRRSHENIAN BEFORE GREEK REA THUKIDIDES**Tyrrshenian or thracian ot thrassenian* 
*in eteo-crete even 100 AD the good morning was 'mari dia' not 'dobro utro*'

*The Lemnian stele is Tyrrshenian with Phoenician writting in an island north of aegean near chalkidiki Makedonia original

*it is simple your languge is slavian cause Makedonian language was a dialect of Greek according to* Hesychius of Alexandria
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
*
The 1st Makedonian Lexicon 



is that slavian?

source* Under the auspices of the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen a modern edition has been in intermittent publication since 1953: to date, the new edition covers alpha through tau.
*
after Slavian invasion and Bulgarian-Hun invasion now Slavians claims that they were here before Even Thracians

GOds what else i will hear, maybe indians invade America????

*well if I curse Tito is that illegal?*

Besides the I2a2 Haplogroup in the map the genetical difference is Big,
E and J2 and low I2 in GreeK makedonia, also little J2 in Fyrom Thank you

the difference is obvious 
Fyrom is genetically related with serbs and west bulgaria more than Greek Makedonia
*

----------


## DejaVu

*Division of Macedonia*

The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages. 
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.

*"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"* Bulgarian armies and Vrhovist bands were not any more scrupulous in respecting human life. In the small town of Dokast, inhabited by Greeks and Turks, the Bulgarians fired 270 out of 570 homes and killed a hundred people. When they occupied the town of Serez for the second time, they torched 4,000 houses out of 6,000 and massacred many of the inhabitants, mainly Turks and Greeks, on the pretext of revenging the slain Macedonian population of the town. 
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola, Skopje, Štip and Gevgelija, the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.

----------


## Elias2

> The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians.


I had to give it to you, you didn't start lying until I read about this part, also the start of you 'evidence' that a maceodnian self identity started in 995, which was still Byzantium at this point. lets look more into detail about this Ohrid Archbishopic shall we?  :Grin: 

BULGARIAN ARCHBISHOPRIC OF OHRID

"
_The Archbishopric of Ohrid was an autonomous Orthodox Church[1][2][3][4] under the tutelage of the Ecumenical Patriarch of ConstantinopleJohn I TzimiscesPreslav capturing Bulgarian Tsar Boris II. The Patriarch Damyan managed to escape, initially to Sredetz in western Bulgaria. In the coming years, the residence of the Bulgarian patriarchs remained closely connected to the developments in the war between the next Bulgarian monarchist dynasty, the Comitopuli, and the Byzantine Empire. Thus, the next Patriarch German resided consecutively in MoglenVoden - (in present-day Greece), and Prespa (in present-day Republic of Macedonia). Around 990, the last patriarch, Philip, moved to Ohrid (in present-day Republic of Macedonia), which also became the permanent seat of the Patriarchate._ between 1019 and 1767. In 972, Byzantine Emperor conquered and burned down and 
__ __
_ Mantle presented to the Archbishopric of Ohrid from the Byzantine Emperor, Andronikos II Palaiologos, with an inscription, saying that the Archbishop was the spiritual shepard of the Bulgarians - Bulgarian National Historical Museum._


_After by 1018 the First Bulgarian Empire had been subjugated by the Byzantines the Emperor Basil II acknowledged the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by virtue of special royal decrees set up its boundaries, dioceses, property and other privileges. The Archibishopric was seated in Ohrid in the Byzantine theme of Bulgaria and was established in 1019 by lowering of the rank of the autocephalous Bulgarian Patriarchate and its subjugation to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Although the first appointed archbishop (John of Debar) was a Bulgarian, his successors, as well as the whole higher clergy, were invariably Greeks, the most famous of them being Saint Theophylact of Bulgaria (1078–1107). The Greek language quite early replaced Old Church Slavonic as the official language of the Archbishopric. All documents and even hagiographies of Bulgarian saints, for example the hagiography of Saint Clement of Ohrid, were written in Greek. Despite this, the Slavonic liturgy was preserved on the lower levels of the Church for several centuries. The autocephaly of the Ohrid Archbishopric remained respected during the periods of Byzantine, Bulgarian, Serbian and Ottoman rule and the church continued to exist until its abolition in 1767, when it was abolished by the Sultan's decree, at the urging of the Greek church in Istanbul, and was placed under the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople.[5]._"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari...opric_of_Ohrid

There are other lies throughout your post but I though I'd start with the first one, the same point where you think you mention the macedonian self identity. I don't have the time to go through the rest of the lies right now, I'll do it later  :Laughing:

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## DejaVu

*GREEK FLAG OR IS IT?*

*THIS IS MAYBE THE REAL FLAG BUT ADOPTED TO GREECE ?*


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company*

*WELCOME TO INVENTED FAKE COUNTRY GREECE*

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## Elias2

The *Macedonian dynasty* ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the *Armenian Dynasty*.[1]

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THE MACEDONIAN DYNASTY OF BYZANTIUM THAT RULED THE SAME TIME AS YOU SAY THE MACEDONIAN CHURCH WAS FORCEFULLY SHUT DOWN WERE LYERS? LOL WHY WOULD THEY SHUT DOWN THEIR OWN CHURCH!?!

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## Elias2

deja vu stop spamming large pictures that have nothing to do with the discussion, I know its hard but try and be civilized.

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## how yes no 2

DejaVu,

I have no doubt that Slavs were previously known as Veneti. That is even easy to prove as it is written by Jordanes in time when Slavs appeared in history. From what we know, Liburnians are most likely Veneti related, thus same origin. 

However, questionable and harder to prove is relation to e.g. Etruscans (btw. Etruscans did come to Italy from Lydia in Asia minor...as Lydians they might have indeed been somewhat related to Veneti in origin and culture as Veneti origin from Paphlagonia Eneti...), Scordisci and ancient Macedonians... Etruscans could have been mix of I2a1, G and R1a...

A clue that Thracians, Scordisci, ancient Macedonians were Veneti related people could be that I2a2 is obviously mark of Veneti and also obviously present in Greece and Asia minor before so called Slav settlements on Balkan. But still even if they were I2a2 dominant, genetic origin does not equal cultural origin. People tend to change languages... look at rather recent spread of Latin derived languages...

my opinion is that there were 3 streams of I2a2 + R1a people from Asia minor:

1) Veneti who were kicked out from Paphlagonia after expedition with Cimmerians and settled east Europe and Adriatic coast

2) Cimmerians or Gommer as I have shown also match I2a2 hotspot in Asia minor and north of Black sea....I beleieve those people gave later Sarmatians (together with some G tribes native to Caucasus)... 

3) spread through Thrace and Moesia...this spread could have participated perhaps dominantly in Scordisci, Illyrians and ancient Macedonians.... but it is difficult to prove this as we do not really know haplogroups and culture of those peoples.... perhaps with testring subbranches of haplogroups in more details... 

also it is question how did R1a and I2a2 mix, as Illyrians are not likely to have been R1a, while Paphlagonia Eneti were both R1a and I2a2, and while R1a seems to be ancient old in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia... 

Anyway, I totally agree that massive/total replacement of population is a myth... but it could have happened that language and culture of people was shifted... e.g. Thracian language seems to have been closer to language of Balts than to the language of modern Slavic people... ancient Macedonians were likely hellenized people...at least their leadership was... Greek was in that time like english now due to towns of Greece being in that time strong merchant power with lot of colonies and with incredibly reach culture for that period....

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## DejaVu

*Macedonian Dynasty? You mean the fake macedonians? The Theme Macedonia and the Armenians.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
The *Macedonian dynasty* ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the *Armenian Dynasty.*

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...he_Macedonians*
The Byzantine Empire reached its height under the Macedonian emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea, southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar Samuel. The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade. Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art flourished, and brilliant mosaics graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian, it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians*
*WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?*
*Language(s)Greek, Macedonian, Armenian, Old Church Slavonic and other South Slavic languages, Syriac, Arabic, Medieval Latin, Romance languages*

*What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?* 
*Tito had a time machine?*

*Bulgarian language does not exist in Byzantine Empire.*

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius*
Saints Cyril and Methodius
The two brothers were born in Thessaloniki - Cyril in 827-828 and Methodius in 815-820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers, according to the _"Vita Cyrilli"_ ("The Life of Cyril"). Their father was Leo, a _droungarios_ of the Byzantine theme of Thessaloniki, and their mother was Maria, who may have been a Slav.
*There is no fact anyone was greek of them and only slav referred people where macedonians.*

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## DejaVu

*Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century* 


*Record of the Macedonian language*
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the _Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris_ in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
*Macedonia during the Middle Ages*
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
*Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics*
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the _Jat_ feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
*Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.*
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
_Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime._
_Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime._
_Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko._
_Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko._
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic
*Old Church Slavonic* or *Old Church Slavic* (abbreviated as *OCS*), also known as *Old Bulgarian* or *Old Macedonian*, was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia, today part of the Republic of Macedonia. At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa in the First Bulgarian Empire until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School, whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid. The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects. The Macedonian language was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis and Marianus, among others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language
*Bulgar* (also *Bolğar*, *Bulghar* and *Proto-Bulgarian*) was the language of the Bulgars. Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language, it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (until the 13th century or 14th century).

*This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.*

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## DejaVu

*Because of Greeks are claiming to be macedonians its time to show who they are.*


*Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece:*
But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, *at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese*…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, *the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh*….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the *Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon*. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and *to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages*. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)

*Albanian origins of the liberators and leaders of Modern Greece:*
The chief authority was conceded to the *Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president*…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two *men who could not address them in the Greek language*. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution) 

The castle of Karytena, even in its ruins, has a proud feudal aspect, and was again, early in our century, the stronghold of one of the most famous and notorious of the revolutionary chiefs – *Colocotroni. He ranks as a hero in that war……..He is described as of the Albanian type*. (J. P Mahhafy, Greek Pictures) 

……*the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance*, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were *the far-famed Colocotroni*, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….*this was merely the dance of the Albanians*, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII) 

*Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village*. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. *Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra*..…..(Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day) 

*Reflections on the East Roman Empire:*
Until 1821, Greeks knew that there had once been a Christian empire with its capital at Constantinople, *but they did not think of it as a Greek empire*, and they certainly didn’t call it the Byzantine Empire. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms) 

*Philhellenism; its aim and impact:*
Most Greeks did not share Byron’s views and would not have understood his allusions. *They did not think of themselves as Greeks at all – and certainly not as Hellenes*…but as Christians or Orthodox. (N. Hammond, Greece – Old and New) 

…Philhellehism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and the by the *illusion of finding in the present mongrel inhabitants of Morea and Attica the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Subsequent contact of Greece with Europe has already considerably modified these ideas*, as the modern Greek begins to pass for what he is: a semi-barbarian, a not yet cultivated citizen, and already a spoilt savage……*Our classical recollections will have been proved a fallacy*…only because they inhiabit a soil where the Parthenon was built. (Baron Augustus Jochmus, The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire) 

It is *certainly unlikely that before the infiltration of European Philhellenism the inhabitants of Kastri knew (or cared much*, for that matter) that they were indeed the inhabitants of Delphi. (Stathis Gourgouris, Dream Nation)

*The foundations of Neo-Hellenic Culture*
It is significant that many of the nineteenth-century *alterations to the Acropolis were carried out at the instigation of Germans, whose contribution to the modern Greeks’ sense of their classical heritage was crucial*………….. an attempt was made to Hellenize the Greek collective consciousness, and through katharevousa, to “purify” the modern Greek language. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms) 

University of Athens - This, was *the first institution of higher learning in the independent kingdom of the Hellenes, was founded by King Otto on the German model*. (John Koliopoulos, Greece – The Modern Sequel) 

*The new sate did not attach itself to the immediate past, as it had been preserved in the popular memory, but rather adapted itself to the convenient image of the ancient Greek past already created in the West*. Otto’s father, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, was obsessed with ancient Greece and brought up his children with the aspiration that one day one of them would reign over this glorious land. (Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe, Texts and Commentaries) 

*In 1834 it was decided to create Athens the capital of the independent Kingdom of Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to plan the wide streets, the squares, the boulevards*: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of five thousand inhabitants, has become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand people. (H. V. Morton, In the steps of St. Paul) 

Ancient Sparta has entirely perished….*New Sparta is a creation of King Otho, who has formed the useless project of resuscitating all the great names of Greece.* It is a governmental and commercial town, composed entirely of shops, barracks, and public offices. (Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day) 

*THE FAKE GREEKS DONT EVEN KNOW THEIR OWN FAKE HISTORY*

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## DejaVu



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## DejaVu

*Greek language.*

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas 
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

*Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.*

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## DejaVu

*http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/Fo...chiveMain.aspx*
*PDF document in Turkish state archives web site.* 
It includes a total of 153 reported incidents done by Greeks in Macedonia between the years 1850 to 1913. 

All of them are from Ottoman Empire archives. I checked some of them. It includes all kinds of oppression, beatings, religious conversion by force, rape and murders on Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Pomaks, Jews, Albanians etc. and protestant Greek community. 

It seems like they tried to convert Macedonians by using methods of terrorism, to speak Greek language, be the member of Greek orthodox patriarch and/or Greeks. There are testimonies and statements of the victims and detailed reports.

You can even write a book with this document because it contains evidences with witness statements.

*These are some of the headlines;*

Quote: Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904 
Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904 

*It mentions about one Greek individual in Florina-Vesetran, forcing local people of Bulgarian patriarchy to sign false papers about a church belonging to the Greek patriarchy and he organize a Greek gangs of 30 men to force the inhabitants of a village named Prekopan to be the member of Greek patriarchy. This Greek gang also murders 2 men, one being a Bulgarian patriarchy cleric. October 4th, 1904*




Quote: Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904 
Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904 

*Armed Greek gangs comes to the village named Zehlince in Florina while local Macedonian inhabitants doing wedding ceremony and murders 10 people, leaving 6 injured. November, 29th 1904*







Quote: Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905 
Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905 

*60-70 armed Greek gangs injures a Macedonian cleric around the village of Osince and same gang goes to the village of Drenova and burns lots of books and papers inside a church. August 2nd, 1905...*







Quote: Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905 
Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905 

*Greek gang with 70 men goes to the church in a village named Gorice-Plas where mostly Vlach people lives and gathers everyone in the village at the church. They forcing them to quit praying in Vlach language and speaking Greek only. They threatens Vlachs that if they don't accept Greek identity and continue to use Vlach language, they will kill them. After the incident, they take few animal, some food and 2 men as a hostage and leaves the village. Local villagers demands Turkish government to build a local police station with soldiers in the village to protect them against never-ending oppression of Greek gangs. August 5th, 1905*

----------


## DejaVu

*Modern Greeks always talk proudly about their so-called "Makedonias Agonas", a war they state was to liberate the 'Greek' Macedonians and 'Greek' Macedonia from Turkish rule.* In reality, the so-called "Makedonias Agonas" was nothing more then a war of genocide against the indigenous Macedonian population with the aim of annexing Aegean Macedonia to modern Greece. Ironically, the biggest allies of the modern Greeks in this endeavor besides the English were the Turks. Below is a small collection of photographs from that period which document Turko-Greek collaboration.

*The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.*


*Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.*


*Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background*


*Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies*


*More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies*


*Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie*


*Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies*


*Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies*

----------


## DejaVu

Here's an article from Time magazine date March 25 1935

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8601-1,00.html

*Farewell to Venizelos*

The back door of Greece opens on the mountainous Balkan hinterland, its front door on the Mediterranean. By the sea, greatness as well as grief have come to Greece. Three weeks ago from the sea, from Greece's greatest island. Crete, came Revolution, led by that greatest of modern Greeks, sly, old Eleutherios Venizelos, against the "Balkan policy" and the monarchist intrigues of Premier Panayoti Tsaldaris. 

Old Venizelos had planned merely a show of force and a quick coup d'état. Instinctively he seized first the key war boats in Greece's Navy. But the thing turned into a civil war on land (TIME, March 18). *Seventy thousand loyalists and some airplanes crumpled the rebel army* of 30,000 planeless Greeks from the islands, *from Macedonia and Thrace.* Venizelos had no stomach for civil war. For all the shooting, the revolt ended with only 100 dead on both sides. The Government, however, promised to execute three times as many. Last week Venizelos, his second wife and a score of the high command fled from Crete to the nearby Italian island of Kasos, then on to the bigger Italian island of Rhodes off the coast of Turkey. Though he was still alive and safe, the world was last week writing Venizelos' political obituary. In Athens the crowd cheered winning General Kondylis and Premier Tsaldaris to the echo. They had won a great victory, but for what? 

*As recently as 1821 Greece was a servile Turkish province.* It was largely with Russian backing that a few Greek Christians won freedom for the barren lower tip of the Greek peninsula. For the rest of the 19th Century the Greeks acquired a shameful record of defeat in battle. They acquired more territory only through the benevolence of the Great Powers, chiefly Britain. Then green currants from the Ionian Islands were the main economic support of the dismal little nation. 

Venizelos changed all that. Born on Crete, equipped with an Athens law degree, he soon developed an extraordinary flair for leadership, a marvelous sense of situation, a nearly perfect aim with a revolver and one of the greatest poker faces in Europe. *Crete was then still Turkish.* Venizelos rapidly led two revolts, won Cretan autonomy, the first step toward union with Greece. The Greek Crown sent a chuckleheaded prince as Commissioner to Crete. With another revolt, Venizelos kicked him out because the prince looked on Cretans as a subject race. His local fame as a Cretan established. Venizelos moved to Athens and proceeded to take charge of all Greece. 

Starting as an ordinary member of the Greek Assembly, Venizelos brought into being a national assembly to revise the Constitution, from which he emerged as Premier. After reorganizing the Army and Navy, he sized up Greek military pretensions as a hollow bluff, saw that Greece's future depended on the good will of the Powers, proceeded to play the future that way. *He broke with previous Greek policy by joining the Balkan League of Bulgaria and Serbia and ganging on Turkey in the first Balkan War. This time Greece won. In the squabble over the spoils, alert Venizelos formed another alliance with Serbia and ganged on Bulgaria. Spoils: most of Macedonia and the Aegean Islands, the most productive lands in the realm and 100% more people.* 

When the World War broke, Venizelos brought up against the Danish stubbornness of Greece's Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg King Constantine I, who favored Germany. He hypocritically maintained "a very benevolent neutrality" toward the Allies. Pro-ally Venizelos was anathematized by an Archbishop of the Greek Church: 
"Against this traitor Venizelos we have invoked the following injuries: the ulcers of Job, the whale of Jonah, the leprosy of Naaman, the bite of Death, the shivering of the dying, the thunderbolt of Hell, and the malediction of God and man. We shall call for the same injuries upon those who at the coming elections shall vote for the Traitor Venizelos, and we shall further pray for their hands to wither and for them to become deaf and blind." 

Unimpressed, Venizelos seceded from the kingdom, forced Constantine to abdicate in favor of his son and declared war against the Central Powers. Though Greece did not do much in war, Venizelos had earned a place at the Peace Conference table. His "enticing, almost ethereal, charm," and the fact that he knew more about the map of Europe than anyone else, did the rest. Spoils: most of Thrace and part of Asiatic Turkey. 

At home, however, the Greeks were losing part of Venizelos' plunder to a resuscitated Turkey under Mustapha Kemal Pasha. When Venizelos rushed home the Greek electorate, with one of the world's worst non sequiturs, repudiated Venizelos and called back King Constantine. Once again Venizelos turned his hand to revolution. Back as Prime Minister, he deposed Constantine's son George and resigned just before Greece turned Republic in 1924. 

Greece had improved its economic situation (tobacco, wine, textiles, leather goods) but it was still "the poorest nation in Europe.'' Partial cause of this was the unprecedented *importation of 1,400,000 indigent Greeks from Turkey and Bulgaria in exchange for deported Turks and Bulgars.* Without Venizelos, Greece entered a typical Balkan shambles of dictatorships and coups d'état, with the royalists always gaining. The old split between the Balkan interests of the repopulated peninsula and the world-trading Mediterranean interests of the islands began to widen, *complicated by the unreconciled Macedonians of the north.* Finally, in 1928, Venizelos cashed in his popularity for one more Premiership, made alliances with Mussolini and Mustapha Kemal, reasserted the Mediterranean policy of a true island Greek, and got out. 

Last year he was struck with dismay when his successor, Premier Tsaldaris, concluded the Balkan Pact with Yugoslavia, Rumania and Turkey. Venizelos saw that Yugoslavia was bound to get into trouble with Italy and Albania, that Greece might have to fight to pull Yugoslavia's chestnuts out of the fire. He objected also to the fact that Italy had not been consulted. Himself nobody's cat's-paw, he could not help feeling that no Greek but himself could ever do anything right. 

All his life Venizelos had worked to consolidate Greeks in Greece. The desperate adventure this month of his last revolution between the peninsula on the one hand, the islands and Macedonia on the other, marked the first time he had ever fought to split Greeks. And for the first time he failed. Once more ''the shivering of the dying and the malediction of man'' fell upon Venizelos. The 71-year-old man, who fled last week to a swank Italian hotel in Rhodes with a private beach, groaned, "I am tired by the hardships and disappointments of the last few days." 

Last week the Greek Government sealed up seven Venizelos houses, including the great Athens mansion-fort with its $5,000,000 (reputed) library, preparatory to confiscating them. As Mussolini turned a cold shoulder to all Greek attempts to extradite the person of the rebel leader, old Venizelos prepared to end his days in exile with his second wife* and the two sons of his first wife, a beautiful Cretan girl dead these 40 years. He smiled sourly when he heard that his opponent. General Kondylis. who was once his ally and fellow-conspirator, had said, "When conditions become normal, the people will be given the opportunity to decide whether to restore the monarchy." 

Said Venizelos, who had doubled the area of Greece, deposed its Kings and given it a place in world politics far out of proportion to its real importance: "All my life with all my heart I wanted the union of Crete and Greece. I wanted it to be sustained by profound mutual affection. I swear that was my only desire. . . . Greece will never see me again." 

* His second wife is the daughter of the late Greek-British textile exporter, John Schilizzi, who left her $15,000,000 in 1908.

Venizelos was just a British spy like all the other high Greek officers and patriarchy at that time. They were under the control of British and everything they did was planned by them already, including the population exchange and invasion of Anatolia. After we kicked them out from Anatolia at 1922, most of his colleagues escaped to the England, became British citizen and lived a wealthy life.

They were responsible from the death of ~500.000 people and forced expulsion of 2 million more.

----------


## DejaVu

THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION
The Times, London, April 12, 1901, pp. 3-4

THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION

(From our own correspondent.)
Vienna, April 11.

A correspondent of the news sheet Information has had an interview with M. Sarafof, the president of the Bulgarian Macedonian Committee, who was arrested a few days ago at Sofia. M. Sarafof made an instructive statement. He said that the whole movement had been misunderstood. It must be divided into two periods. During the first period it was under the leadership of men who were in close connection with the Bulgarian court itself and had been employed by several successive Ministries. The latter used the committee and the influence which it had in the country in order to fortify their own position, and to carry out the programmes of their parties. M. Sarafof continued thus: -
“In 1895 we young men were sent to Macedonia to prepare an insurrection, or, at all events, to try and start an outbreak of some kind, if only to show Europe that Prince Ferdinand constituted a powerful factor in the Balkan Peninsula and that his deposition would be a greater danger for the peace of the continent. It was only after these disturbances that the Powers, one after the other, recognized Prince Ferdinand as chief of the new Bulgarian dynasty. This first phase of the Macedonian movement, owing to the fact that it was subordinated to different party interests, acquired no hold on the bulk of the population in Macedonia. We young people have therefore been endeavouring for some years past to separate the Macedonian cause from Bulgarian domestic politics. If the rulers of the Principality now declare that they cannot tolerate us as a State within the State, it shows that we have at least succeeded in emancipating ourselves from the pernicious influence of the Bulgarian government. It is only because we are no longer disposed to sacrifice ourselves for this or that party, and regard the liberation of Macedonia as a question of honour for the entire people, that the Bulgarian Government is persecuting us….
*“It is a grievous error to suppose that we seek to acquire Macedonia on behalf of Bulgaria. We Macedonians consider ourselves to be an entirely separate national element, and we are not in the least disposed to allow our country to be seized by Bulgaria, Servia, or Greece. We will, in fact, oppose any such incorporation with all our might. Macedonia must belong to the Macedonians.* The misunderstanding has arisen through our residing in Bulgaria. The circumstance of our having prepared a Macedonian insurrection while living in this country led to the conclusion that we were aiming at a union between the two Slav provinces. That is, however, perfectly absurd. If we were to be expelled from Bulgaria and were to settle in Switzerland nobody would suppose that we intended to liberate Macedonia on behalf of Switzerland; we merely go where we find the most favourable opportunities for our revolutionary work….
But, wherever we may be, we wish to keep our movement distinct from the national aspirations of the independent Balkan States. We shall energetically resist any attempt on the part of those States to secure Macedonia for themselves. We have been reproached with wanting to disturb the peace of Europe. That leaves us indifferent. What do we infortunate Slavs care for the peace of Europe! Russia has frequently promised us that she will soon take our cause in hand. Only a short time ago a Russian statesman told me that we should be patient, as whenever Russia was no longer occupied in East Asia she would come forward in favour of the autonomy of Macedonia. My own conviction is, however, that Russian diplomacy will first begin to think of us when it decides to realize its own ideal of the conquest of Constantinople. Its object will than be not the emancipation of Macedonia, but its subjugation. Consequently, my friends and myself are resolved to separate entirely the movement we are prompting from Russia’s Balkan policy. Without in any way wishing to identify our efforts with the policy of Vienna, I am nevertheless of opinion that Austro-Hungarian aspirations are infinitely less dangerous for the autonomy of Macedonia than are those of Russia. The conquest of Macedonia by Austria-Hungary is impossible, owing to the composition of that Monarchy and to the resistance which such a plan would find on the part of all the Balkan peoples…..
“I must, at the same time, clearly state that we neither ask for, nor would accept, any official support of our movement from Austria-Hungary. We will have nothing to do either with official Bulgaria or with official Servia, nor yet with official Austria-Hungary. We are revolutionists, and count only upon one-half of the peoples of Europe. In order to put and end to the misunderstandings among the Slav States of the Balkans concerning the movement in which we are engaged, two of our friends will shortly go to Servia and then proceed further in order to deliver lectures. Macedonia must no longer be a source of dissension among the Balkan countries. Emancipation must form the basis upon which the federation of those countries can be founded.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pro Armenia, Paris, 25 avril 1901, p. 87

Nouvelles d’Orient

« […]
Boris Sarafov avait fait des déclarations fort importantes à un correspondant de l’Information de Vienne. Elles se résument en quelques points capitaux : 1º Le mouvement macédonien n’est pas un mouvement bulgare ; les Macédoniens constituent une nationalité particulière qui ne veut s’agréger à la Bulgarie, ni à la Serbie, ni à la Grèce ; 2º le malentendu provient de ce que l’action macédonienne avait pour centre Sofia. Expulsés de Bulgarie, les Macédoniens réfugiés en Suisse deviendraient-ils suspects de vouloir annexer leur pays à la République helvétique ; 3º la Russie ne viendrait en aide à la Macédoine que pour réaliser son plan de conquête de Constantinople ; elle ne l’émanciperait pas, mais la subjuguerait. Le mouvement macédonien doit donc être entièrement séparé de toute action russophile ; 4º il ne doit pas subir non plus d’influences austro-hongroises, bien que le danger de la conquête du pays soit de ce côté bien moins imminent que du côté russe ; 5º on reproche aux Macédoniens de mettre en péril la paix européenne : cela les laisse indifférents ; ils ne sont point les gardiens de cette paix précaire et l’Europe n’a qu’à faire exécuter les engagements pris par traité comme c’est son droit et son devoir.
Telles sont les déclarations de Boris Sarafov.
[…] »

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The french text translated using google translate:

Boris Sarafov had made extremely important statements with a correspondent of the Information of Vienna. They are summarized in some most important points: 1º the movement Macedonian is not a Bulgarian movement; the Macedonians constitute a particular nationality which wants to incorporate themselves in Bulgaria, neither in Serbia, nor in Greece; 2º the misunderstanding comes from what the action Macedonian had as a Sofia center. Expelled of Bulgaria, the Macedonians taken refuge in Switzerland would become suspect to want to annex their country with the Swiss Republic; 3º Russia would come to assistance of Macedonia only to carry out its plan of conquest of Constantinople; it does not émanciperait it, but would subjugate it. The movement Macedonian must thus be entirely separated from any Russophile action; 4º it should not be subject to Austro-Hungarians influences either, although the danger of the conquest of the country is on this side much less imminent than on the Russian side; 5º one reproaches the Macedonians for putting in danger European peace: that leaves them indifferent; they are not the guards of this precarious peace and Europe does not have that to make carry out the commitments entered into by treaty as it is its right and its duty. Such are the declarations of Boris Sarafov. The original from The Times:

----------


## DejaVu

"Macedonia will be independent and the *Macedonians will remain Macedonians.*
If Europe thinks otherwise, will be wrong? If the Bulgarians consider on the Bulgarisation of Macedonia, these are illusions. *What the Macedonians want is the autonomy for their country,* with the intervention of Europe in their favor. No division, no annexation to another state; *Macedonia is unique and to the Macedonians*. Who can oppose the creation of an autonomous Macedonia? Greeks, for example. Greeks have large claims, it is clear, but after the war of 1897 that they cause, they verified their military incompetence. *Macedonians should be recognized* and they should be helped to create their own autonomous state in the Balkans, safe and civilized. These people are talented people who would do great deeds. "

Source: _Routier Gaston, "La Macеdoine et la question macеdonienne", Paris, 1903_


The ereyer Dimitar from Krivopalanechko on his ethnic origin in 1848, he wrote:
"*I was born a Macedonian* ... It was written by God to my country to suffer from the Greeks, so they do not give us peace even today, although everyone knows that Macedonia was an older state of their empire."


"... To be known, when the villagers from my village Radibush Krivorechka Palanka, appointed me for a teacher in our village school, and for Rankovce and Krivi Kamen, for 1,800 pennies a year. I was born from my father priest Dimitar and mother Vaskresija as 7th child of twelve children, five males and seven females. The Slavic letter I learnt from my father, Dimitar Macedonian,* who is called like that because we are Macedonians*, not Greeks, and his father was called Joseph priest, and his grandfather Stojmen priest. I took his nickname Macedonian as well, not because of my father and my grandfather, but to know that we are Slavs of Macedonia. "
- _(Ден Голема Богородица на 1846. Ѓорѓи Македонски, 15, т.Први, 282)_


"... There are still those that today's inhabitants of Macedonia do not consider neither for Serbs or Bulgarians, but a separate ethnicity, probably *descendants of the ancient Macedonians.* ... "
- _Slishkovikj Jakov, "Albania and Macedonia", Sarajevo 1904, pp. 160_




http://www.gate.net/~mango/Rizospastis.htm

*Letters to "Rizospastis" (Journal of the Greek Communist Party)* 

ELECTION PROGRAM OF THE WORKERS AND PEASANTS' UNITED FRONT, August 1932.

The United Front of the Workers and Peasants declares that the struggle for support of the oppressed nationalities: the Macedonians, Turks and Armenians is a general task of all the working population in Greece. This struggle should be directed against spiritual, political and economic oppression and against the forcible hellenization practiced in schools. Schools in the mother tongue of the population should be demanded. The mother tongue should be used in the various government agencies and also in the courts of justice. A struggle should be also waged against the fascist bands, against the massacres, against the arson supported by the government of Venizelos and by all bourgeois parties; against the law which separates the Jews and Turks in different voting lists; against expropriation of the land. The right to self-determination including full secession for all the oppressed nationalities which have been forcibly annexed to Greece should be demanded. (Rizospastis, ar. 340, August 33, 1932, p.1)


PERSECUTION OF MACEDONIANS IN THE DRAMA REGION, April 6, 1934

The whole bourgeois press reported yesterday that at the village of Drenova, region of Drama, which is inhabited by Macedonians, and "anarcho-communist" organization which intended..."to blow up and set fire to the whole town of Drama, was discovered." A police detail from Drama raided the village and arrested 8 peasants. In fact, this was a brutal attack against the communists who were presented as anarchists, and whose names were compared with those of the hated Komitajis, the obvious aim being to stifle their struggle for the rights of the national minorities. The workers and the peasants of Greece should protest against the deportations of the Macedonians, rejecting the slander of an alleged agreement between the communists on the one hand, and the Komitajis, fascist agents of the Bulgarian capitalists, on the other. [Rizospatis, ar.27,(6963), 6.IV.1933, p.1]


COMMUNIST LEAFLETS IN SERRES, April 15, 1934

On April 15, 1934, the town square was covered with leaflets with revolutionary proclamations calling upon the soldiers to struggle for a solution to their problems and against the beastly reign of terror. Officers imprisoned the soldiers who had read the leaflets, asking them to reveal the names of the individuals who distributed them. The most barbarous methods were used against us Macedonians, soldiers of the 6th Heavy Artillery Regiment. The majority of us are illiterate, we do not know Greek and therefore we frequently do not understand their orders. The officers tried to teach us to read and write, but their efforts were abandoned too soon and were preformed so improperly that none of us learned anything. Following this, the 12 soldiers who did not learn anything were punished by 5 days in jail, each. Two days later we were given one tomato and stuffed pepper each, which is not enough for anyone. The 140 soldiers, after they have been given this food, gathered around the kettle and, in spite of the officers' threats, demanded better food for the value of 25 Drachmas. Eventually, their bowls were filled up with food which had been left in the kettle.Serres, April 15, 1934 A Macedonian {Rizospastis, ar.195 (7132), 25.IV.1934, p.3 }


OPPRESION OF THE MACEDONIANS IN VODEN, June 6, 1934

Voden. - Here, in Voden, and in our whole district, in the heart of Macedonia, here where we Macedonians do not know any other language but our own Macedonian, various agents of the Greek capitalism force us to speak Greek. Consequently, they threaten us constantly with expulsion to Bulgaria, they call us Komitajis, expropriate our fields which we have drenched with our sweat just to produce a piece of bread. In addition, they deprive us of the freedom which our fathers won after many years of struggle in which they gave thair lives for the liberation of Macedonia. We live under the yoke of Greek capitalism, literally as slaves.

In the elementary schools, the young children who speak their own language are beaten every day. Particularly here in Voden, the henchman and fascist Georgiadis beats the children if they speak their Macedonian tongue, if they wrap their notebooks in red paper, or if they use red ink or red colors.

Second Lieutenant Tagaris is another "great hero," anti- communist and persecutor of Macedonians. In his slandering of communism in our district, he does not even shrink from such nonsense as saying that we are not communists but rather Bulgarian Komitajis etc.

Not long ago, a number of Macedonian comrades were arrested, and Tagaris threatened them with grave consequences if they did not stop agitating among the youth. A number of other comrades, Prosfigis, were arrested together with them. They were repeatedly told that the local people were Bulgarian and Komitajis.

To these agents of capitalism the Macedonians keep repeating that they cannot be intimidated by anything and that they will continue their struggle until they attain their full liberation.

Voden, June 6, 1934 A Macedonian correspondent; [Rizospastis, ar.89 (7026), 10.VI.1934, p.3]


MACEDONIANS IN THE ANTI-FASCIST FRONT; June 8, 1934

Lerin (Florina). - It has been some time now that the whole bourgeois press launched a campaign against the Macedonian people. It represents a part of the fascist and military measures which the Government of Tsaldaris carries out in its orientation towards an increasingly brutal oppression of the people's masses in Macedonia.

The campaign is waged not only by the bourgeois press but also by all the other agents og Greek capitalism. The Chief of the Security Forces here, Karamaunas, whenever he meets us on the streets threatens us with the words: "You are Bulgarians and if by any chance I discover any sort of organized movement, I will beat you without mercy and then I will deport you."

We Macedonians should rise with greater courage and by means of increased activities should reject this campaign because it brings us an even more brutal oppression, starvation, misery and war. Appropriate activities have also been undertaken at the Anti-Fascist Congress. Five hundred drachmas were donated to cover the expenses of our representative. However, this will not do. We should start forming anti-fascist associations, and we should bravely reject the yoke imposed by our oppresors, and create a free and indipendent Macedonia.

A nationally conscious Macedonian, [Rizospastis, ar.87, (7024), 8.VI.1934, p.1]


ARRESTS AND TORTURE OF MACEDONIANS IN THE SERRES AREA, June 24, 1934

Macedonian peasants, especially the poor ones, are dragged through the jails because of unpaid debts of only 60 to 100 Drachmas. Six days ago, in addition to those arrested for their unpaid debts a number of peasants from the village of Frashtani were arrested and accused of supplying the Komitajis. Nine more peasants were taken to jail from Xeropotamo(?) and charged likewise. These two villages are located within two hours walking distance from Serres and seven hours from the Bulgarian border. All these poor Macedonians do not know Greek and only speak their own language. Under torture they were forced to admit that Komitajis had been passing through their village.

Many convicts from the prisons at Serres, [Rizospastis, ar.105 (7042), 26.VI.1934, p.I]


OPPRESION AND PLUNDER OF MACEDONIANS, July 19, 1934

The following is a letter we have received from Kozani which on one hand demonstrates the suffering by the Macedonian minority at the hands of the captains- plunderers who are in the service of the Greek democracy, and on the other hand, the latest reckless exploitation of woods belonging to Macedonians by various capitalists who want to impose their monopoly over the forestry industry and to expropriate the poor lumberjacks. Because of this, all those employed in the wooded areas should rise against the methods of reckless exploitation which are now being applied in he forests.

Comrade "Rizospastis,"

The knife has cut deep into the flesh and reached the bone. The Greek government has struck us a heavy blow. It has left us at the mercy of Captain Marko Papaterpov, an Andart and goat thief who robs us of our forests which provide a living for 2000 Macedonian families from Dolni and Gorni Nestram. The plundering of the woods have aroused all the villagers, young and old alike. We oppressed Macedonians address you and ask you to help us in our struggle becuase you have been leading us for some time now. Our village commune demands your support as well as the support of all the workers throughout the country.

Nestram, July 19, 1934 Many Macedonians, [Rizospastis, ar.130 (7067), 22.VII.1934, p.4]


BEATINGS AND ARRESTS OF MACEDONIAN SOLDIERS, August 12, 1934

Voden (Edessa) August - We Macedonians make up the majority in the 30th Regiment and therefore our life here is very difficult. Whenever anyone utters a Macedonian word he is punished with 10-15 days in jail. We are called "ignoramuses" and are constantly beaten. Disciplinary measures are taken every day and we are often ordered to do forced labor. In spite of als this we shell continue to speak our language and to sing our revolutionary songs. We are prepared to resist the pressure against us, which is being made in order "to throw" us into war and we shell fight fascism.

A Mecedonian correspondent from the 30th Regiment in Voden, [Rizospastis, ar.152 (7089), 12.VIII.1934, p.5 ]


"RIZOSPASTIS" CONCERNING THE ILINDEN UPRISING, August 2,1934.
"ILINDEN, THE HEROIC UPRISING OF 'I'HE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE"

The revolutionary traditions of the Macedonian people who, since 1913 have been partitioned among three capitalist states (Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia), maintains as a central bright symbol its armed uprising on St. Elijah's Day (Ilinden), on August 2., 1903 (July 20th, according to the Gregorian calendar). It represents a most glorious symbol, mainly because this Uprising manifested the unity of the Mace-donian people. Only those who were acquainted not only with the cruelty of the former Sultan's regime, but also with the terrorist and bandits' activities, as well as with the heinous intrigues of the "liberators" from the neighboring states, of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian exploiters, understood the real significance and true meaning of this united revolutionary activity of all Macedonians, which was not affected by their varied tribal origin... (Rizospatis, 142/7079, 2. VII 1934.


MACEDONIANS IN THE VODEN AREA ORGANIZE, September 8, 1934.

We Are Neither Bulgarians, Nor Greek! We Are Macedonians. Along the northern periphery of capitalist Greece, a whole nation groans under the heavy boot of two-fold, economic and national exploitation and pressure; that is the Macedonian people. The Greek capitalists, landowners and generals, using fire and sword, try to "hellenize" these people and make them slaves. However, the long-suffering Macedonian people, who have given so many sacri-fices, are not prepared to surrender as slaves to the clutches of their oppressors. They are struggling for their liberation and independence. At their side as their allies stand the Greek workers and peasants who know that "people who oppress another people cannot be free themselves". The news report from western Macedonia, which is published below, shows that the Macedonians are waking up and that they are finding the true road towards their liberation. Fleeing from the harmful influence of the fascist organization of Mihajlov-Protogerov's (I.M.R.O.), they are entering the united revolutionary organization - the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organi-zation (United), which continues the bright and glorious traditions of the struggle for the independence of Macedonia. The village of Arsen, district of Voden, is populated with 165 Macedonian families and by about 80 Prosfigi. In addition to the heavy taxation which we are paying, in addition to the poverty and misery which burdens and oppresses us, we experience wild terrorism which is used against us by the state agencies, of course upon orders of the Tsaldaris government, as was the case earlier, under the government of Venizelos. We cannot go and file complaints in the regional office because there we are kicked out of the offices and called Bulgarian komitadjis, only because we are Macedonians. However, we declare in full voice: "We are neither Bulgarians nor Greeks. We are Macedonians! We shall struggle for full independence from the Bulgarian, Greek and Serbian whip". We know that we shall be successful - provided we are organized, and provided we enjoy the support of the workers and peasants of Greece. At a conference which we had one of our comrades presented the program and activities of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United). We formed two groups with ten members each, as well as a three-member committee which will organize new groups in all Macedonian villages in the Vrtikop area (district of Voden). We invite all the peasants from the Lerin area and from the area of Enidze Vardar, so that we may start publishing a newspaper for the Macedonians in western Macedonia in our own mother language.

Arsen, September 8, 1934. The Macedonian Groups from Arsen and Vrtikop (district of Voden). (Rizospastis, XVIII, 182/711, 12. IX 1934)


MACEDONIANS ORGANIZE IN GROUPS, October 26, 1934.

Two groups of Macedonians with nine members each, and another one with six members were formed in the village Eksi-Su. They have assumed the task of enlightening the peasants and organizing the struggle of the Macedonian people for liberation. These groups invite the other villages: Ajtos, Zeleniche and Ljubetino to organize themselves in groups and to make efforts to start publishing a Macedonian newspaper in our own mother language. We should declare in full voice to our Greek masters that we are not Greeks, nor are we Bulgarians or Serbs, but pure Macedonians. We have behind us our history, our past with much fighting for the liberation of Macedonia , and we shall continue our struggle until we finally liberate ourselves. Eksi-Su, December 26,1934. Many Macedonian Fighters (Rizospastis, 24-351, 1. XI 1934, s. 3)


TERRORISM IN THE VILLAGE OF PATELE (DISTRICT OF LERIN), October 26, 1934.

In the village of Patele a Macedonian organization was formed to fight for the liberation of the long-suffering Macedonian people who are groaning under a Greek reign of terror. The government terrorizes the Macedonian fighters and has decided to deport Andreja Chipov.* The population of Patele protested against this act and demanded an end to the deportations, and also a release of all the deported fighters. Patele, October 26, 1934. A Macedonian (Rizospastis, 243/7173, 1.XI.1934, s.3)

*- Andreja Chipov (1904-1956), well-known Macedonian and Greek revolutionary. In 1933. he became a leader of the I.M.R.O. (United) in Aegean Macedonia and member of the Central committee of the Communist Party of Greece. In 1936-1941 he was deported to Akronavplia (Greece). For a short period in 1941 he was secretary of the C.C. of the KKE. Participant in the National Libe-ration Front.
"ON THE SIDE OF THE MACEDONIANS. THE MACEDONIANS RESPOND", October, 1934. (This article was written and published in Macedonian, in the dialect spoken in Lerin area, however in the Greek alphabet.)
Comrades, Brother Macedonians!

Greek capitalists are making comprehensive and intensive preparations for a new war and for establishing a fascist dictatorship(Greek word). Greek capitalists want to create conditions in which it will be possible to tyrannize (Greek word) and exploit you even more. They want to take your children to Athens, the capital of Greece. The same is being done by Simo Stanofcki who is a dog, who 1ies (Greek word), who is a representative of Greek capitalism and who is trying to tie you up in a way you will never be able to shake off. Beware of these spies, because they want by dictatorship and by fire and sword to force you to learn the Greek language, to forbid you to speak your own Macedonian language which is your mother tongue. They want you to fight in a new war for the benefit of the rich (Turkish word), so that they will pack up again their coffers with the blood and bones of poor Macedonians. Everything they do, depriving you of the very last morsel of bread, forces you to flee abroad, trying t9 make it impossible for you to come back because you are Macedonians. Therefore, comrades, brother Macedonians, the first thing you should do is to spit in the face of the spy, the fascist Simo Stanofcki and not to let yourselves be deceived again by him, not to let him take your children to Athens to work for the profit of the rich and to your detriment. You should ask the village mayors to return the 500 drachmas which the village gave for every Macedonian who went to Athens and to demand that this amount should be paid back by the royal Greek capital. You should demand to be allowed to speak Macedonian in government offices (Greek word), in the courts of justice, everywhere. You should demand that the children of Macedonians should be given the right to return from abroad. You should declare in full voice all as one: "Macedonia to the Macedonians! Down with the war and the fascist dictatorship! Let us liberate Macedonia and Thrace". A Macedonian From Lerin (Rizospastis. 203 (7141), 3. X 1934, s. 5.)


"RIZOSPASTIS" ON THE SIDE OF THE OPPRESSED MACEDONIANS, November 13, 1934

The Workers' and communists' "Rizospastis"

The "tiroriata" (terror) against the Macedonians in the district of Sorvich (Amindeon) has reached its peak. Macedonian women who sell 20 kilos of peppers in order to buy a kilo of bread and butter for their families are taken to the market inspectorate to buy market licenses. The women who did not know Greek went together, in order to be able to complain, with a peasant who spoke Greek, to the market inspector. However, the inspector, enraged, told them to submit a written complaint and asked them to immediately pay 60 Drachmas each. This is one more reason why we should organize groups of Macedonians in order to fight for an indipendent state.

A Macedonian, [Rizospastis, ap.213 (7151), 13.XI.1934, p.3] (The above was published in the Macedonian language using Greek charachters).


LARGE LANDOWNERS OPPRESS THE POOR PEASANTS IN MACEDONIA, December 1934.

Dear "Rizospastis",. We ask you who have long been on our side and who have always helped us Macedonians who are oppressed and doubly exploited, to publish the following letter: Here, in Enidze-Vardar the whip, curses and heavy taxes are used against us. Our fathers fought against the Turks, but they also fought for liberation from the Greek oppressors. Thus for example, the landowner Zervulaki takes every day parts of the land which was given to us by the state in 1923. He talks derisively to us saying that the land will be ours only to make us pay taxes. However, now the anti-popular government gives the land openly to the landowners. He wants to enlarge his 500 acres to 1500 and even to 5000 acres, and, as he states himself, in order to make the peasants slaves on his estate. Already for seven years now, since 1930, we have been paying taxes only to see now how the land is being taken from us Macedonians. All the poor people who express their dissatisfaction say that they have understood only now that we have been duped by all the bour-geois parties. However, by means of our struggle in the United Front together with the workers, we demand the abolition of all the large estates and distribution of the land to the poor peasants; we demand cancellation of the loans given by the banks and by usurers; we demand to be granted non-interest long term loans. We declare that we shall struggle against fascism and the attempts made to involve us in the war. Enidze-Vardar Poor Macedonians (Rizospastis, 274 (7212), 13. XII 1934, s. 3)


SUPPORT THE MACEDONIANS, January 1935.

Dear "Rizospastis" We write these few lines to you who are the only protector of the oppressed national minorities: All the Greek people have been following these days the debate concerning the refugee problem in the League of Nations in connection with the Greek minority living in Albania, groaning under the yoke of the Albanian government. The Greeks in Albania, faced with the closing down of their Greek schools, demand quite righteously observation of the treaties signed between Albania and Greece. We, the downtrodden Macedonian minority, wish from the bottom of our hearts that the demands of our brothers in Northern Epirus may be realized because we, Macedonians are in the same position, under the yoke of the Greek government. We also demand that the whole working class and the progressive press should raise their voice in support of our rights. We also want to be able to speak freely our Macedonian language and to open Macedonian schools where our children will be educated. We demand that the Greek government should implement the treaties concerning the minorities, which it has actually been oppress-ing for so many years, as has been the case with us Macedonians as with other minorities - (note added by "Rizospastis"). However, the Greek government, instead of giving us our rights, is interested only in our forcible "hellenization". On the other hand, with the assistance of the chauvinist "superpatriotic" press, it tends to present us as if we were not Macedonians but rather "Slavophones", which means "pure Greeks". We also protest against the terror of various fascist nationalist organizations which are committed to our persecution. Together with the police, they keep arresting Macedonians, call them "Komitadjis", beat and torture them brutally. We call upon all our brother Macedonians to rise against this situation. United with the Greek workers and peasants, we shall also struggle for their rights and their freedom. We should destroy once and for all the fascist terror, so that we will be able to use freely our language, so that we will be able to open our own Macedonian schools. We are confident that together with the Communist Party as our leader, we shall be victorious. Brotherly Greetings, Many Macedonians (Rizospastis, 319 (7257) 30. I. 1935, s 1.)


A LETTER OF PROTEST BY A GROUP OF MACEDONIANS ADDRESSED TO THE GREEK NEWSPAPERS,* February 1935.

All the Greek people have been following these days the debate in the League of Nations in connection with the complaint of the Greek minority in Albania. We, the undersigned Macedonians, from the bottom of our hearts wish that the complaints of our brothers in northern Epirus may be remedied, since the Macedonians are in the same situation under the bondage of the Greek authorities. We demand the freedom to speak freely in our Macedonian tongue, to open our own schools so that our children will be educated in our own language. We demand that the Greek government should implement the treaties concerning the minorities in regard to the Macedonian minority, which have beet disregarded for so many years. Instead of giving us our rights, the Greek governments are interested only in the "hellenization" of our population. On the other hand, with the assistance of their chauvinist newspapers they endeavor to present us Macedonians as "Slavophones" and "pure Greeks". We protest also against the orgies which are being held by various nationalist organizations. Together with the gendarmes, they frequently arrest Macedonians, accuse them of being "Komitadjis" and subject them to brutal torture. We call upon our brother Macedonians to complain against this situation. Let us demand that an end be put to the terror, let us demand to be given the right for free use of our own language, to open our own Macedonian schools. (Makedonsko Delo , X/195, February 1935, p.8)

* - According to a note added by the editorial board of the newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause), the Greek minority in southern Albania protested in the League of Nations against the terror of the Albanian authorities. The League of Nations considered this protest early in 1935. A group of Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia used this case to address a letter of protest to the Greek newspapers against the terror of the authorities in Macedonia under Greek rule. The letter was written in the Macedonian language.


THE WHIP IS SYMBOL, July 3,1935.

Enidze-Vardar, June. - The whip is a symbol of class and national oppression in our district, which is being used even more after the increase in the number of votes given to the United Front. A few days ago, "Member of Parliament" A. Pejos arrived here allegedly to distribute the land around the lake to the landless and poor people. He stated, inter alia, that the land should not be given to the natives because they were "Bulgarians", because they were supporting the Komitadjis, and because the Greek Army had difficulties in liberating Enidze-Vardar. We answered this fellow: we do not recognize you as our Member of Parliament. You were appointed by the government! As for the name Bulgarian, which you are giving us, we tell you that we are not Greeks, nor are we Bulgarians or Serbs. We are Macedonians, with our own language, culture, customs, and with our own history. We, who are young, are filled with pride when we listen to our fathers telling us about the Ilinden Uprising, about the heroism of Zlate, Petkov, Gruev, Tosev and Delcev. Were they Bulgarians, Mister Pejo? No, they were Macedonians and they fought for a united Macedonia. All the Macedonians from eastern, central and western Macedonia are uniting, Mister Pejo, in order to kick you out and all the other Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian exploiters.

Per the Groups of I.M.R.O Al. Nemas (Rizospastis, 3.VII 1935.)


THEY WANT TO SPEAK IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, July 3, 1935.

Kroncelevo (District of Voden). - One hundred and twenty Macedonian families live in this village. They are Macedonians and they do not know any other language except Macedonian. However, nobody should envy the fate of anyone who might be heard by the authorities speaking Macedonian. A threat hangs above his head of being expelled to Bulgaria. All the villagers have relatives in Bulgaria who write to them that the same thing is being done to them by the Bulgarian authorities. However, the Macedonians in Bulgaria have their own organization and they are struggling for their. freedom. The latest news is that the Security Service has learnt that we receive here our newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause),. which has enraged them. However, we are not afraid of them. We shall spread ever wider this newspaper and we shall form national-revolutionary groups in all the villages and towns in our Macedonia. we shall publish newspapers in our Macedonian language, we shall prove to all the Macedonians that only the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United) is waging a struggle for the liberation of the oppressed Macedonians. Village of Kroncelevo, District Correspondent 948 of Voden. (Rizospastis, July 3, 1935)


DEEP IN OUR HEARTS WE KEEP THE MEMORIES OF THOSE WHO WERE MURDERED, July 1935.

Dear "Rizospastis",

You, who are on the side of the oppressed, write also something about us Macedonians. Older Macedonians, who had been lured by Bulgarian money and chauvinism and who bore arms fighting for the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria, have now understood that they did not do anything but defend the interests of the landowners and bankers who dismember-ed Macedonia and annexed parts of it to Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece. Now they are reviving the memories of the murdered Macedonian leaders Gruev, Tosev, Delcev, who sought self-determination for Macedonia. We, Macedonians from Voden held a meeting at which one of our comrades talked to us about the program of the I.M.R.O. (United) and how the minorities lived in the Soviet Union. He told us that the Macedonians in Serbia and in Bulgaria were fighting under the leader-ship of the communist parties for a united and independent Macedonia. We declare that we shall struggle for our freedom under the lead-ership of the Communist Party of Greece and that we demand to have our schools where the Macedonian language will be taught, and we also demand that we should not be called Bulgarians because we are not Bulgarians, nor are we Serbs or Greeks, but only Macedonians! We demand permission to publish and distribute our own newspaper. We invite all Macedonians to join the I.M.R.O. (United), so that we shall all together struggle for a free Macedonia. Per the Group from Voden G Slavos (Rizospastis, July 3, 1935.)


THEY FIND THE RIGHT PATH, September 3, 1935.

Old Petko, a Macedonian from Voden, writes to us: One day I got hold of the newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause) published by the Internal Macedonian Organization (United). I read it eagerly and I thought over past events. I thought about my criminal attitude towards the Macedonians in the period between 1893-1896. In Macedonia armed groups were former whose goal was the liberation and self-determination of Macedonia. During this period Bulgaria sent the Komitadjis to Macedonia. One night, the arch-Komitadji Apostol, a terrorist from the district of Enidze-Vardar, came to my house with some 30 Komitadjis. He first intimidated me and then succeeded in convincing me to become a Komitadji by promising me a pay of 50 liras a month and free education for my children. We made war against the Turks, but also we fought against the members of the I.M.R.O. Using terror, murder and bribery, we succeeded in destroying the Macedonian groups. Then we declared that Macedonia was Bulgarian and that we were fighting for her annexation to Bulgaria. That was a great mistake! Only now do I understand what I did. Now, when Macedonia is partitioned among Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, and when the Macedonians, divided into three states, suffer in each one of them, I understand my fault and I come in spite of my age, but with all my experience, under the glorious banner of the I.M.R.O. (United) which is fighting for the interests of all Macedonians. Voden. Old Petko (Rizospastis, September 3, 1935)

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## DejaVu

The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle 1903-1905
In Review: a Journey from Myth towards History

Nationalism is a word that is difficult to define. Perhaps the most sensible way to treat it is to accept that there are numerous varieties of it. There are for example, decent versions that are interested in defending cultural groups from exploitation and inequitable treatment. In direct opposition are those streams of nationalism with an inability to cope with difference and which tend towards attempts to exterminate it, both physically and symbolically. Of course all nationalist movements can possess sub streams that defy the dominant tendency within their group – social life is complex and often the neat categories devised by historians, journalists and others, fall far too short of presenting its discrepant intricacies.

Indeed, it is impossible to record history precisely, as if one could take a photograph of it and thereby illuminate every little detail. Actually, all good photographers realise that any type of lighting will always veil some aspects and are also acutely aware of how readily framing can serve to deceive. Historians need to begin from such premises and then proceed with a desire to capture as honestly as possible all the contradictions that muddle up their prejudices and assumptions. For historians inhabiting a national milieu predominantly belonging to the more intolerant versions of nationalism, this can be a very difficult task to perform. In fact it is not unusual for such historians to be little more than hubristic self-serving myth makers. In their chronicles, to quote Orwell: “Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which, it is felt ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied” (Orwell, 1984: 314). 

Historians emerging from a context obsessed with uniformity will need to exhibit and consistently maintain a very high level of moral courage, if they earnestly desire to be loyal to the spirit of their vocation. For it is obviously in the nature of their social realm to punish the authors of prose that deviate from its essentialist canonical foundation yarns; which in actuality have been spun to conceal the existence and persecution of very real human beings. The punishments ‘naturally’ vary, depending upon circumstances, from ostracism to exile, incarceration, or even death.

Most of us, even though we may reside in a more flexible culture, will have, at one time or another experienced at least a transient moment of painful alienation inflicted by peers for the transgression of some minor norms. The scars of even such short lived episodes can never-the-less remain with some people, for very substantial periods. It is difficult then, for those of us inhabiting relatively more tolerant life-worlds, to imagine what it is like for individuals that are required by their avocation to place themselves in a situation where they become almost constantly ostracised by all of the surrounding social structures - from the family to the state. These are structures that we strangers observing the xenophobia from a safe distance, mostly take for granted. If they were to suddenly become unaccommodating, the shock, regardless of the idiosyncrasies characterising our individual natures, would be significant; for these structures provide for our freedom and security - for our existence, as we know it.

Greece is a country that has welded ethnicity to national citizenship. It is a nation-state that refuses to recognise even the existence of any ethnic minorities within its borders – even though it is quite eager to complain about the treatment of Greek minorities within other countries. As the American Anthropologist Loring Danforth has explained, there is a “...fundamental incompatibility of the Greek nationalist conception of the ‘ethnos as an integrated entity embodied in the state’ and a philosophy of inalienable human rights” (Danforth, 1995: 130).

Dimitris Litoxou, a Greek author of historical prose, resides in Athens, the capital of Greece. Over two decades ago he decided that he would take historical discourse seriously and accept the moral challenge demanded by the field through which he has chosen to express himself. By all accounts, this has resulted in great personal hardship, for it led to a type of the social ostracism we briefly outlined above. His courage needs to be recognised and commended. Without individuals like Litoxou, who can serve as models for others to be guided by, Greek ethno-nationalistic hubris is not likely to be undermined.

In 1998 a book Litoxou had written in Greek and entitled “Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle 1903 - 1905” was published in Greece. I had heard many good things about its content though not being literate in Greek I was unable to see for myself until a Macedonian translation of the Greek original (by Vasko Karaja) was published in 2004. Right from the introduction of the book, Litoxou makes it clear that it is his intention to deconstruct all the unquestioned fairy tales that Greek historiography has been propagating about the “Macedonian question” for decades. 

“I am characterising as the Greek anti-Macedonian struggle that which in Greek national history is recognised as the Macedonian struggle. A major chapter in recent Balkan history, which Greek historiography has presented in such a way that it makes historical truth unrecognisable; it has created a completely mythological story – structured upon various lies and the wiping out of historical occurrences” (Litoxou, 2004: 7; the responsibility for the translations throughout this essay, from Macedonian to English is mine – GV). 

Greek “historians” and politicians alike, as Litoxou demonstrates with numerous quotations, have attempted to present the Macedonian struggle “...as a heroic struggle by the Greeks from Macedonia in the period 1904 – 1908, for the preservation of their national identity and for their independence. That is, a battle which from a national aspect should be adjudged as the second fundamental point after the uprising of 1821” (Litoxou, 2004: 8).

By researching not only the published and unpublished memoirs of the participants in this struggle, but also the Greek state archives in Athens, Litoxou made discoveries that lead in the direction of a very different version of events: “... that heroic struggle exists only in the books of Greek historians. That which actually occurred, could only engulf the majority of present day Greek citizens, with feelings of shame and regret” (Litoxou, 2004: 8). The problem for Litoxou and others like him is that the elites maintaining the dominant ideology, for utterly selfish reasons employ their power towards drowning out peripheral voices of reason. Never-the-less, we must admit the possibility of challenging and eventually altering hegemonic structures – for they are man made and therefore can be subjected to meaningful change. From this perspective, we must applaud Litoxou’s efforts and consider them to be extremely significant. 

The findings emerging from Litoxou’s ‘excavations’ required him to characterise the “Greek Macedonian struggle” as in fact, anti-Macedonian; as a “...systematic effort implemented by the Greek state at the beginning of the 20th century, to inflict a blow upon the national – democratic autonomist movement of the Macedonians. In that struggle, the Greek state and the nationalistic Para-state became allies of the Ottoman establishment at that time. They had at their disposal, a high amount of finance and firearms for the formation and sending forth of guerrilla bands to Macedonian territories where Greeks did not reside, in order to terrorise the inhabitants and to stop the process of Macedonian national revival. The Greek mercenary bands, under the leadership of Greek officers, occupied themselves with violence, plunder and slaughter. They sowed horror and death throughout Macedonian villages and they unsuccessfully attempted to block the development of a Macedonian national ideology and of the democratic-autonomous struggle of the Macedonians” (Litoxou, 2004: 7 – 8). As already indicated, Litoxou methodically utilises primary Greek sources to corroborate his assertions which he describes as a “...journey from myth towards history” (Litoxou, 2004: 8). 

In 1903, Macedonians launched an uprising against Ottoman rule that became known as the “Ilinden Uprising” because it was launched on August 2nd – St. Elijah’s day. Litoxou explains that the uprising was “...systematically prepared by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (IMRO)...The participation of the village Christian peasantry, [Macedonia was at this time a mostly peasant farmers land – GV]...was general in the regions where the uprising broke out (especially in western Macedonia). Ilinden was hostilely met by the Greek state whose consular organs co-operated with the Ottomans for its suppression. The eruption of a revolutionary movement fighting for the creation of an independent Macedonian state, similarly frightened both the Turks and the Greeks. The former would lose the European part of their empire, while the latter would lose the inheritance of the great sick brother. The Ilinden Uprising was bloodily suppressed. The Patriarchate [Greek Orthodox Church – GV] and the spies of the Greek government placed themselves at the service of the Ottoman army and Bashibozuks [Muslim paramilitaries – GV]. The burning down of villages, the killing of innocent women and children and the plunder of...everything was the response of the Ottoman state. The whole of Europe would come down on the side of the Macedonian rebels – except Greece, which would condemn them and slander them” (Litoxou, 2004: 9).

Moreover, as Litoxou underlines, Greek “historians”, have consistently portrayed Ilinden as an insignificant event not widely supported by the local population that was exported to Macedonia by the Bulgarian state, for the purpose of trying to strengthen Bulgarian claims upon Macedonia (Litoxou, 2004: 9 – 10). 

It is Litoxou’s contention that in order to present to the public such formulations on Ilinden, Greek “historians” have permitted prejudices emanating from their cultural baggage to determine the nature of their literary output. Indeed, Litoxou demonstrates that these Greek “historians” have regularly ignored and excluded mention of important primary Greek and non-Greek evidence. In connection with the Ilinden Uprising, the most striking example of ignoring evidence that Litoxou uncovered, are reports written in 1904 by a Greek official named G. Tsorbazoglou. He was sent to Macedonia by the Greek Foreign Ministry and his task was to systematically analyse the social conditions in Macedonia and in particular to find out more about the IMRO. He was in other words, charged with writing a series of ethnographic reports. Until Litoxou, the findings of these reports were simply excluded from the accounts given by Greek “historians” (Litoxou, 2004: 29 – 30). Why?

As Litoxou demonstrates with extensive quotations from Tsorbazoglou’s reports, they seriously undermine the official Greek “historical” stance on both the Ilinden Uprising and the IMRO. For example, after broad and regular tours of Macedonia in general and central Macedonia in particular, Tsorbazoglou concludes that the “...revolution in Macedonia is not Bulgarian...” (Litoxou, 2004: 31) and that the IMRO has been very successful in garnering support from the masses “...on account of one single reason...that they have no aim other than to liberate the Macedonians, as Macedonians” (Litoxou, 2004: 32). 

In the aftermath of Ilinden, the Greek state attempted to take advantage of the weakened condition of IMRO by exporting Greek guerrilla bands to Macedonia for systematic proselytising among the Macedonian peasantry. What does Litoxou tell us about one of the leaders of these exported Greek guerrilla bands, the celebrated in Greek national mythology, Pavlos Melas? Melas was a Greek military officer who led a Greek guerrilla band, throughout the county of Kostur (today located in Greece and called Kastoria) in Macedonia for a short period after the Ilinden uprising; and Litoxou unveils enough to destroy numerous Greek myths. For example, during his ‘tours’ Melas wrote to his wife complaining that in village after village, the women cannot speak “even one word of Greek” (Litoxou, 2004: 43). Which language did they speak? Melas’ correspondence explains it was reported to him that in one Macedonian village, in order to lift the spirits of the Greek military officers, the local school teacher asked his students to sing a song – however, Melas wrote that he isn’t sure about which language they sang in, “Macedonian or Greek” [!!] (Litoxou, 2004: 43). In an attempt to some extent overcome the communication problem and gain at least a little trust from the Macedonian villagers, Melas informed his wife that: “I have learnt some Macedonian words, which I use among the women and especially the mothers...” (Litoxou, 2004: 44).

Apart from the language barrier, Melas wrote to his wife about his fear of the locally born Macedonian revolutionary leader, Yankov. Melas complained that Yankov had “poisoned” the consciousness of Macedonians with the idea that they constitute a nation “independent...from all other nations” (Litoxou, 2004: 44). What a surprise; in Macedonia during the early 1900’s there were people who considered themselves to be distinctly Macedonian and who spoke a language that they called and which Melas recognised as, “Macedonian”?! Well, probably more like a shock for those who have had the misfortune to only possess access to texts written by Greek “historians”!

At around a quite concise 100 pages, Litoxou’s “Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle” is an excellent read that I could not put down and read from start to finish in one sitting. Even if you are not highly conversant with Macedonian, it is worth making the effort to accompany Dimitris Litoxou on a “journey from myth towards history”.


George Vlahov

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## DejaVu

*The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!* 



1.8% would roughly equate into 250000 ethnic Macedonians in Greece.

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## Elias2

> *Macedonian Dynasty? You mean the fake macedonians? The Theme Macedonia and the Armenians.*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
> The *Macedonian dynasty* ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty. During this period, the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests, and the Macedonian Renaissance in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian, who was descended from the theme of Macedonia. The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the *Armenian Dynasty.*
> 
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzanti...he_Macedonians*
> The Byzantine Empire reached its height under the Macedonian emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea, southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar Samuel. The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade. Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art flourished, and brilliant mosaics graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian, it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.
> 
> 
> ...


You contridict yourself too much which discredits your whole argument from the start. let me show you your hyprocracy;

Basil was from the theme of macedonia which is why it is called the macedonian dynasty. His background was armenian. Now you say these are 'fake' macedonians because his background is not from that region but he is, so lets put this ideology to *you*. You call youself macedonian because you lived in the roman province of macedonia, but your background is obviously bulgarian. So in your own logic Basil wasn't macedonian bacause his background is armenian, then you are not macedonian because your background is bulgarian. I'm glad we've come to an agreement  :Grin:

----------


## Elias2

> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians*
> *WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?*
> *Language(s)Greek, Macedonian, Armenian, Old Church Slavonic and other South Slavic languages, Syriac, Arabic, Medieval Latin, Romance languages*
> 
> *What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?* 
> *Tito had a time machine?*


LOL click on the link where it says 'macedonian' and it take you to old church slavonic! LOL YOU DON'T EVEN TRY WHEN YOU LIE  :Grin:

----------


## DejaVu

*100% stupid that what you are* dont even read anything because you are red in your face that you *failed* to convince anyone here that macedonians are greeks or bulgars. 
If any greek starting to miss any information that is already posted and comment stupidity there will be *MEGA REPOST SPAM*.

----------


## Elias2

lol I could take hours debumking everything you write dejavu because you obviously like spreading propaganda but your lies arn't going to work, and I don't want to waste my time doing so. You are bulgarian who call themselves macedonian. Historical truth based of evidence will always triump over nationalism. The sooner you realize this the sooner this stupid conflict will end. Continue and it won't go away, either way, greeks will never see you as 'ethnic macedonians' and neither will the academic community. I will leave you with this pic of the genetic similarities of european nations; take a look as where 'macedonians' group up with, the other southern slavic people  :Grin:

----------


## Elias2

> *100% stupid that what you are* dont even read anything because you are red in your face that you *failed* to convince anyone here that macedonians are greeks or bulgars. 
> If any greek starting to miss any information that is already posted and comment stupidity there will be *MEGA REPOST SPAM*.


I've read everything and I can see you try real hard to convince not just other people but yoruself you are something you are not. Grow up is the best advice I can give you.  :Good Job: 

Let me give you a quote said by the famous adolf hitler;

"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." 

sound familiar? ;)

----------


## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)
The *themes* or _themata_ (Greek: θέματα; singular θέμα, _thema_) were the main administrative divisions of the middle Byzantine Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme)
Theme of Macedonia - province of the Byzantine Empire


*You are very stupid, cant even see that the theme is not about the land of macedonia.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic
*Old Church Slavonic* or *Old Church Slavic* (abbreviated as *OCS*), also known as *Old Bulgarian* or *Old Macedonian*, was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia, today part of the Republic of Macedonia. At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa in the First Bulgarian Empire until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School, whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid. The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects. The Macedonian language was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis and Marianus, among others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language
*Bulgar* (also *Bolğar*, *Bulghar* and *Proto-Bulgarian*) was the language of the Bulgars. Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language, it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (until the 13th century or 14th century).

*This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.*

----------


## DejaVu

*NEED A COMMENT ABOUT THE GREEK LANGUAGE SHOW YOURSELFS.*

*Greek language.*

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

*TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK*
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas 
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

*Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.*

----------


## Elias2

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)
> The *themes* or _themata_ (Greek: θέματα; singular θέμα, _thema_) were the main administrative divisions of the middle Byzantine Empire.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme)
> Theme of Macedonia - province of the Byzantine Empire
> 
> 
> *You are very stupid, cant even see that the theme is not about the land of macedonia.*


LOL, your contradict yourself even more! The land of macedonia from ancient times you speak of is 100% in greek territory. The themes and different geographies of the region of macedonia has always been changing, but the land has always been the same  :Laughing: . just because the last region, or theme, of macedonia happened to include western bulgaria doesn't mean you are macedonian! LOL  :Good Job:

----------


## Elias2

OH no, looks like we've both got it all wrong! the real macedonians are in bulgaria LOL ;)

----------


## DejaVu

*Loser* comment your language and why its similar to turkish words.
The themes are not same as countries, if your brain can understand that.
How old are you 12 years?

----------


## Elias2

because the ottoman empire was turkish maybe? Is this so hard for you to answer yourself? You know languages borrow from each other as time progresses, there are alot of greek words in the turkish language. Themes are the geographical area of the empire at certain times. FYROM is basing its country nationality on a theme they happened te be in, how can you brain not understand this? ;)

----------


## DejaVu

Wrong answer, Greek is ancient language or is it? One more proof that you are fake and not ancient greeks.

----------


## Elias2

> Wrong answer, Greek is ancient language or is it? One more proof that you are fake and not ancient greeks.


Ancient greek and modern greek are very different, no language stays the same over 2000 years. Take the "macedonian" language as an example, only 70 years ago is was a western bulgarian dialect now you call it macedonian!  :Laughing:  then again, it still isn't different enough from bulgarian to say its still not  :Good Job:

----------


## Elias2

I'm going to bed, good night dejavu! or in greek, kalinihta! ;)

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## iapetoc

Dejavu it is simple,

ask Xerxes what reply he got when ask Sparta to join Persia

the same
OVER OUR BODIES

*I AM MAKEDONIAN ORIGIN
I LIVE IN MAKEDONIAN ORIGIN
I COME FROM ANCIENT CITY OF BALLA NEAR PIERIA
MY FAMILY FOUGHT BULGARIANS AT 1904*

SO COME AND GET IT AND BRING AGAIN YOUR BULGARIAN AND OTHERS FRIENDS

WE WILL NEVER UNITE THE FAKES, *SLAVIANS GO HOME* TO BULGARIA

cu in Hell soon,
*WE will NEVER UNITE WITH THE ENEMIES OF OUR FATHERS*
*Now A Bulgarian DIALECT became a Language*

*Besides for us you were and will be always Buggari cause Bulgarians are others*
no matter how you call your shelf we were we are and will be the true Makedonians
try to Unite us and then you feel the wrath of the 2nd most known man in Balkans
you know him Mikhael Kalashnikov,

*My family lives here for centuries and now you are telling me that i am not Makedonian* !!!!!!
*I know my genealogy and history since my family left the old Balla and went to Ballanellina at 1600* 
today is Trilofos 
*i don't accept any more insults about my nationality and inherritage,
*
*there is a lexicon at 500 AD of Makedonian Dialect and you are showing me one of 1600 ????
if that is not a thivery then what is it?
*

----------


## iapetoc

*oh look
Albanians are makedonians you must claim albania you forgot it*

*Oh look you are greeks at that* *map*



*that map is not good shows the excact today borders, but names yoy as Greco-Bulgars*


*
Oh pitty you are bulgarians here you dont exist*

**
*


oh god what is this!!!!
Adrianople is Makedonian according the conferance of London*
*Fyrom must have black sea with that map*
*Its in the map you must claim it, black sea belongs to Slavo- Makedonians*
*you must unite with them, they are not Turks they are Makedonians*
*Adrianople is Fyromians it is not turkey it is in the map*

The Ottoman Empire in the Treaty of London in May 1913 assigned the whole of Macedonia to the Balkan League, without, specifying the division of the region, to promote problems between the allies. Dissatisfied with the creation of an autonomous Albanian state, which denied her access to the Adriatic,

*nonono the turks named you Makedonia, you are right,*


*God what is that????*

*You Are not Makedonians you are Bulgarians*
*Makedonia is Velico-Tyrnav and Stara Zagora*

*http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...d=1#post364024*

ok

----------


## DejaVu

*Ancient Greeks in your Dreams. You are already in shame and your economy is crap and always was. Sweden and the others should exclude you out of EU, your behaviour is NON-EUROPEAN.*

----------


## DejaVu

*CAN YOU READ ENGLISH????????????*

This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.

It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.

*Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population.* I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?

Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.

In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla: 
............ the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's *population according to religious affiliation*, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet




*There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?*

*http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ot...tatistics.html*
*Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"*

In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide. 
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question". 
*Statistics without "Macedonians"*
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them. 
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
*Macedonia's Districts*
*Greeks* 
*Bulgarians*
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227 
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283 
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452 
172,735 

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
*Muslims* 
423,000
*Greeks*
259,000
*Bulgarians*
178,000
*Serbs*
13,150
*Others (Jews)*
73,000

However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their _religious_ background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at _that_ moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered _Muslims, Jews,_ and the _Christian_ Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows. 
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
*Turks* 
2,000
*Greeks*
1,341,000
*Bulgarisants*
77,000
*Others (Jews)*
91,000

But this map was _submitted_ to the League of the Nations _by the Greek government_ and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations _had not visited_ Aegean Macedonia and did not participate _at all_ in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. 
*Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:




_balkan views_ 
*Greek* 




Nikolaides
1899
*Bulgarian*
Kenchov
1900
*Serbian*
Gopchevich 
1886



Macedonian Slavs 
454,000




-
-



Serbs 
-




400
1,540,000



Bulgarians 
-




1,037,000
-



Greeks 
656,300




214,000
201,000



Turks and others 
576,600




610,365
397,020
Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence. 
*Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics: 




_neutral views_ 
*German*




Dr. K. Ostreich
1905
*Austrian*
K. Gersin 
1903
*English*
Andrew Rousos



Macedonian Slavs 
*1,500,000*




*1,182,036*
*1,150,000*



Serbs 
-




-
-



Bulgarians 
-




-
-



Greeks 
200,000




228,702
300,000



Turks and others 
550,000




627,915
400,000
Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population



Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks. 

Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show. The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania". As at the beginning of the 20th century, the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent and non-government organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians.
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified: 
_"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..."_ and: 
_"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language"._
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language. 
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875: 
_"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,__"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"_
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.

*The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians. 

*

----------


## DejaVu

*And here is your Greek-Turkish heritage. Greeks mixed with the Turks and are the modern Greeks.*

*Modern Greeks always talk proudly about their so-called "Makedonias Agonas", a war they state was to liberate the 'Greek' Macedonians and 'Greek' Macedonia from Turkish rule.* In reality, the so-called "Makedonias Agonas" was nothing more then a war of genocide against the indigenous Macedonian population with the aim of annexing Aegean Macedonia to modern Greece. Ironically, the biggest allies of the modern Greeks in this endeavor besides the English were the Turks. Below is a small collection of photographs from that period which document Turko-Greek collaboration.

*The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.*


*Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.*


*Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background*


*Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies*


*More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies*


*Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie*


*Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies*


*Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies*

----------


## DejaVu

*The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?*

*Greek language.*

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

*TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK*
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas 
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

*Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.*

----------


## DejaVu

*Greeks have come out in their true colours in that today we see what they are up to to deny & destroy the macedonian nation.*We also know from historical sources the atrocities that they committed & are committing on the macedonian people.Genocide is the way to describe it they are bothing but a vile & despicable peope who will resort to the lowest denominator to get their way.They are the most inhumane people on the face of this earth.The Helsinki Human Rights Watch has allready warned europe that the greeks are lying by denying the existence of the macedonians.Also that the greeks have gone to exhaustive means to cover the fact that there aren't macedonians.For example it jails people who disagree with a number of cases throughout greece.Also it forbids the spoken macedonian language.The forced changing of people's names with greek ones.etc


It is fashionable today for academicians and plebeians to speak of Greek “civilization” as if it was some monolithic expression of a monolithic state (country) Greece. But whether this is so and whether this could be established, is a matter altogether different—but what it does do is give us some pause of thought. 

In examining these matters, we must first throw off the yoke of Western scholarship, Western bias, and Western humdrum oration. Let us take apart, piece by piece, the mythos surrounding the nonexistent ancient state of “Greece,” and let us reveal the truth of these matters.

So notwithstanding “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” and the father’s proclamation of “pick any word, and I will show it to be of Greek origin,” and “the Greeks invented pottery,” let us press ahead and document the errors of Western scholarship and Greek propaganda. 

The ancient writer Tatian, writing over 1500 years ago, understood this all too well when he stated “Cease, then, to miscall these imitations inventions of your own.” So in other words, the Greeks steal, without admission or recognition, other cultures ideas as their own. If they do this for ideas, imagine what they might do with “persons”; wait, they already do that too!

The alphabet, itself composed of the Greek letter alpha and beta, originated with the Phoenicians.

Astronomy (Greek word) originated with the Babylonians.

Geometry, another Greek word, originated with the Egyptians.

Imagine if English and other European countries used the original words for alphabet, astronomy, geometry, and so forth, they wouldn't sound so Greek! But when you Hellenize the name, they become Greek!

The problem with ancient European history is that in the last 250 so years western European scholars have divide Europe into two spheres of influence, the Roman latin west, and the Greek east. This definition is very misleading as any non-Greek nation or people residing in the east are automatically identified as being 'Greek'.

----------


## DejaVu

Bulgarian "scientific" methods bring the term "Bulgarian" into generic link not only with the old Bulgarian, but with everything that ever appeared at any time under this name (!?)

For shorter and better review of the use and meaning of the term "Bulgarian" starting from the 10th century and especially during the Turkish domination of the Balkans will consider several referential examples that testify against Bulgarian Nationalist doctrine.

According to the Bulgarian historiography all mentions,and very often wrong, with this name which is for her a fateful moment, that this is them - Bulgarians.

“Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification.”
- (Smith, Anthony. "National Identity" published in London 1991, p. 22)

A.Todorov-Balan in his "One Macedonian theory”, book 9-10, Sofia, 1905, 818, states that in the XIX century the Balkan peoples,called the Russian czar -" Bulgarian Tsar "and the Serbian and Russian language - "Bulgarian".

The term "Bulgarian” during the Ottoman rule denoted – a peasant farmer.

While the "Grecian" denoted a person of higher class or merchant.

*"During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like 'Greek' or 'Bulgarian' were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups, but rather broad socio-cultural categories"* (Danforth 1995:59)
- (Mirca Madianou , “Mediating the Nation“, p. 30, is Lecturer and Director of Studies in Social and Political Sciences, Lucy Cavendish College, University of Cambridge)

"*The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire* (Friedman 1975:84), *or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense.* "(Wilkinson 1951:149),
- (Loring M. Danforth „The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press, 1997, p. 59)

“ *For example, in Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, class and ethnicity overlapped, resulting in the utilization of the terms “Serb” and “Bulgar” to denote the peasantry per se. Since most peasants were Slavs and most Slavs were peasants, class distinctions often became ethnic distinctions* ( Slijepcevic 1958, 82-96; Kofos 1964; Vermulen 1984; Shashko 1973).
*When the Slavs moved into the urban world or became members of the middle classes, they generally shifted their identity to Greek. In Belgrade, for example, Serbian townsmen dressed in the Greek style, the Belgrade newspapers included the rubric Greciia (Greece), and the local Christian “higher strata” were Grecophone until 1840* – according to Stoianovich 1994, 294; and Karanovich 1995, 31. 
In Southern Albania and Greece during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, thousands of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs became completely Hellenized ( Skendi 1980, 187-204)”.
- (Victor Roudometof “Nationalism,Orthodoxy, and Globalization”p. 48)


We are witnesses of the phenomenon of “ethnicization” of the religious, social or occupational groups in Balkans, very often these groups were denoted by the names of ethnic communities and they used these names to denote themselves as well.

The term "Grecian" could mean "an Orthodox Christian," but also "reseller" or generally "well situated" citizen. in the same way, "Turk" most marked "Muslim" and "Bulgarian" was a highlight, "villager", with or without an offensive meaning. "Vlach" and marked "shepherd" or "nomads" in general. "Albanian" (arnautin) could be applied to a man from each ethnic group who performed certain military tasks
The term “Grecian” could mean “Orthodox Christian” but also a “city dweller” or gennerally “well to do citizen”. In the same way,”Turk” often meant “Muslim”, with “Bulgarian” to denote a “villager”, with ot without pejorative connotation. “Vlach” could mean “shepherd” or “nomad” in general.”Albanian” (arnautin) could apply to a person of any ethnic origin performing specific military tasks
- (Dēmētrēs Tziovas , „Greece and the Balkans“ p. 43)


According the references of Prof. Keith Brown, “Turk” implied official persona – functionary, “Grecian” meant – merchant, “Bulgarian” – villager, farmer and “Vlach” – shepherd, rancher.
“When the Macedonian peasants use the term Bulgar, they mean by it: 1) people of a simple and hard-working life, 2) the bulk of simple labourers who speak Slavic, in contrast to the non-Slavs, the Greeks and the Turks, who are above this majority and consider them inferior. The first meaning is the main one: the word “Bulgar” denotes in the first case a simple mode of life, work and thought.”
- (Keith Brown, „The Past in Question, modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation“, p. 59)

Habsburg authorities in Transylvania, tended to call all members of Orthodox merchant companies “Greeks”, irrespective thet they included not only Slavs, Romanians, and Christian Albanians, but also a sprinkle of Armenians and Jews. Western travelers in Macedonia, quickly realized that the term “Bulgarian” was locally used to describe poor Slav peasants.
- (Katerina Zacharia и Dimitris Livianos „ Hellenisms: culture, identity, and ethnicity from antiquity to modernity“, p. 249)

“In Macedonia, as late as the early twentieth century, both “Greeks” and “Bulgarian: denoted professions, the later often being applied to poor, Slavic-speaking, Orthodoc Christian peasants, shepherds, or laborers of lower social status to whom were ascribed a “peasant” culture.”
- ( Peter Mackridge, „Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766 – 1976“)

Trajan Stojanović in his book "Balkan Worlds: The First and Last Europe", p.143 again underlines that the term "Bulgarians" were called the farmers and with "Vlachs" the shepherds.

The Bulgarian member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences Vasil Drumev wrote: "*And we've began to learn Greek, to speak in Greek, to call ourselves Greeks. And there is still among us respected Bulgarians, who are grecoficating, who speak .. in Greek, who hate the Bulgarians.”*

K. Irachek in - "History of Bulgarians”, Sofia, 1929, 385-386, *says that the citizens for the simple, uneducated provincials (peasants) always used the name - "Bulgarians" by adding the obligatory – thick headed, *****, stumps and other abusive words.*

The Traveler Sir John Mandeville, in1357 travelling throught Balkans wrote that Serbia is land of Bougiers, while Blegrade in that time was known by the name “Alba Graeca” and “Alba Bulgarica”. 

Simeon Lehaci in his journey memories wrote that all the people in Bosnia speaks in "Bulgarian", and they were "Greeks" in religion.


“*All peasants were Macedonians; shepherds were Vlachs; merchants and bureaucrats were Greeks; and the high administrators were Muslims.”*- (“Minorities and mother country imagery” By Gerald L. Gold, Memorial University of Newfoundland. Institute of Social and Economic Research, p. 60.)

Prof. Stilpon Kyriakidis in the “Northern ethnological frontiers of Hellenism ", on p.39:
"*While at the time of Simeon did not cease to differ Dragovites from Strumianites and generally Sclavinians from Bulgarians, since Samuel the name of Sclavinias completely disappeared, and all Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians by the Byzantines and the country that Samuel ruled, that is western and northern Macedonia is called Bulgaria. In this way, we ourselves gave the name Bulgarian to everyone that speaks Slavic* ".

The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality. 
When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox (Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818)

Another indisputable proof that the “Bulgarian” at that time meant Slav, and then "Bulgarians" thought of themselves as pure Slavs, the same people with the Serbs and the Macedonians and Illyrians (Croats, Slovenes and Montenegrins) presents "The History of Bulgarian people " by Fr. Spiridon of Gabrovo, which in its short history says:

"*Bolgarians came into rule in Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, White Sea and the Rome... Illyrians (Serbs and Croats, my note) are called Bolgarians... and from Bolgarians originated the Serbs, and when Alexander took the whole Ilyrian army to conquer of the world ... since then Bolgarians began to call themselves Macedonians and Slavs* "
- (Spyridon Yeroschimonach, History in short of Bolgarian Slav nation 1792, tran. B. Hristova, prof. Raikov B., BAK at NB “Ss.Cyril and Methodius ", and" GAL-ICO, Sofia, 1992)

Jordan Hadzhikonstantinov - Dzinot, tells that for him the term Bulgarians means Slavs, so in his "Legend of Thessaloniki," published in 1859 says *St. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of all Bulgarians (Slavs), and in Bulgarians includes the Moravians from Great Moravia and Pannonia* (Glasnik drustva srpske slovenosti, VIII, p. 146-147)

Krste Petkov Misirkov explains the concept “Bulgarian”: "The Greeks also did not differ the Slavic nations and all Slavs ... called with the despised name "Bulgarians"
... The Greeks used the name Bulgarian to incarnate in him their contempt for everything Slavic. .. With the name Bulgarians, we Macedonians were christen by the Greeks,as well. But this re-christening was not the only one... “ (Krste Petkov Misirkov "On Macedonian Matters" Preface, Sofia, Printing House of the Liberal Club, 1903).

For Mr. Gennady, Metropolitan of Veles in 19th century ( born in the village Podkozhene, Podgradec) the concept “Bulgarian” is the same with the term Slavs, and he wrote that the Czechs and Slovakians are Bulgarians: *“ of Bohemia and Moravia they are all Slavs, pure Bulgarians, our brothers”* (Source: Simeon Radev “ Early memories”, titled “Meeting of four Bulgarian bishops” new, revised and expanded edition, edited by Trajan Radev, publishing house “Strelec”, Sofia, 1994)

Macedonian teacher Nikola Pop-Philipov, says that "*Bulgarian" language is a general Balkan language* (newspaper "Macedonia" Constantinople, April 6, 1868), *referring to the Slavic language.*

Grigor Prlicev writes in his autobiography: *“... the Bulgarian alphabet only to three was known and was called Serbian..”* (Grigor Prlicev, Autobigraphy). For him and the Serbians were Bulgarians i.e. Slavs; at that time, only Serbs had reformed and codified Slavic alphabet, and because of it Prlicev says that the Bulgarian (Slavonic) alphabet was called Serbian.

The famous Macedonian textbook writer Dimitar Macedonian sees its people as ancient Macedonians, and in one of his article writes that the ancient Macedonians are not swallowed by the earth, but are pure Slavs: *"... Macedonians are not Vlachs or some other nation, but pure Bulgarians (thinking of Slavs) ... therefore you’ll learn that the Macedonians are not lost from the face of the earth, as some allow to say, because, as far as we know, they did not done anything so bad, what should open the earth to swallow them. "(*see Makedonia of 16/02/1871).

In its “Brief holy history for the schools in Macedonia (in Macedonian dialect) printed in “ The printing of Macedonia”, Constantinople in 1867, writes:
Q.[Question] Who are those Bulgarians(Slavs), who were baptized in the early first century after Christ’s birth? 
A.[Answer] They are Bulgarians who live in Macedonia
Q. From whom are they baptized?
A. The Apostle Paul, who first preached at Philippi and Thessaloniki

*It becomes obvious that under the umbrella of the term "Bulgarians" also enter the ancient Macedonians, who were first baptized by the Apostle Paul, whole 5 centuries before the ethnic name "Bulgarians" to appear on the Balkans at all and generally European geographic regions.*

Next reference is the book of Mark Mazower “Salonica City of Ghosts” p.249, who writes about the visit of Sir Henry Layards of Thessaloniki, and here’s what he means under these terms: 
To be a “Greek” meant to be a “Orthodox Christian” while under the term “Bulgarian” was held to be one of reproach and contempt. 

Not last confirmation, but sufficient for completion of this reference overview of the meaning of these terms, according to the book of Nace Dimov “Historical line of Macedonia and Macedonian Slavs” Chapter first p.13-15, from 1913:

*”Therefore, in Macedonia there was such a position that the same Macedonian nation was called Grecian, Serbian and Bulgarian, just because one recognizes the Greek patriarch and pray in Greek churches, and another goes into a Slavic church. In each the same towns and villages the priests that receive a salary of Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those receiving the salary from the Serbian Diocese called themselves Serb and Macedonian Slav population that goes into one or another school or church calling itself Grecian, Serb or Bulgarian

From all that I expressed I can say that the Macedonians have a hundred percent right to autonomy and not be subjected to fragmentation among Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians. Regardless of that the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian government, for extending their boundaries on Macedonian territory, without saving money and exterminating the Macedonians who do not want to call themselves Greek, Serb and Bulgarian and those who do not know how to speak Serbian and Greek.”*

----------


## DejaVu

*WHERE ARE THE REAL GREEKS?*

*Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens

*He was born Ioannis Liapis (Greek: Ιωάννης Λιάπης, Iōánnēs Liápēs) in Oinofyta, Boeotia. He is an Arvanite. (Albanian)

----------


## DejaVu

*WHERE ARE THE REAL GREEKS?*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...ece_and_Turkey
The *1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey* was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey and the Muslim citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire. The total population (sum of all the millets) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206

----------


## iapetoc

*Besides you took all the Greek words and all the Arvanitet and all the Pontian Greek and you turn them

ALL THE WORDS YOU WRITE ABOVE ARE GREEK WORDS AND ARVANITET, THAT TURKISH BORROWED, YOUR HOAX IS ENORMOUS, YOU TOOK ALL THE GREEK WORDS IN TURKISH LANGUGE AND MAKE THEM TURKISH AND THEN TURN THEM AND YOU SAY THAT GREK ARE TURKISH,

ARE YOU NUTS?

WHO BELIEVES YOU,

ALL THE WORDS YOU WRITE ABOVE ARE FROM PARTS OF GREECE, AND ARBANITET NOT TURKISH*

----------


## how yes no 2

> *The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?*
> 
> *Greek language.*
> 
> Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.
> 
> Here is your continuity
> 
> *TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK* ......
> ...


Actually, many of the words are present all over Balkan, also in Macedonia....
Many or at least some of them are likely to origin from Greece....
Before Ottomans arrived to Asia minor, Greek was main spoken language there....
In fact, modern Turkish people largely origin from pre-Ottoman native Greek speaking people, and thus it is quite normal if modern Turkish has lot of loan words of Greek origin...and I do not understand purpose of listing these words shared between turkish and Greek....so what if some Turkish words are adapted in areas that were part of Ottoman empire... even if the whole vocabulary is shared that would mean nothing when it comes to genetics and origin.... 

btw. Deja Vu, can't you be more relaxed about topics we discuss here? I don't think most of people who come here are in mood to participate in argues and little wars with imaginary enemies....discussions should not be about propganada-like shouting on each other, but a joint effort to figure out what might be the truth about history events.... if you are not able to participate in discussions in civilized way with respect for other people and their origin, perhaps forums are not best place for you and maybe you should consider joining some army or some religious sect that will provide you with enemies and allow you to live in black/white them/us division of the world...

----------


## DejaVu

*FAKE GREEKS link to your statements, I want to know what the white DNA is, never heard about it before.*

*Summary:

*1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. *(no link)*

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. *(no link)*

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. *(no link)*

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. *(no link)*

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." *(no link)*

----------


## DejaVu

*There is no more to discuss in normal way its already out of control with spammers.* 

*Told you all to stop posting and start a new tread, you did not want that lets continue with political discussions that nobody cares about. Wanna play low IQ people lets continue.*

----------


## Marianne

> Actually, many of the words are present all over Balkan, also in Macedonia....
> Many or at least some of them are likely to origin from Greece....
> Before Ottomans arrived to Asia minor, Greek was main spoken language there....
> In fact, modern Turkish people largely origin from pre-Ottoman native Greek speaking people, and thus it is quite normal if modern Turkish has lot of loan words of Greek origin...and I do not understand purpose of listing these words shared between turkish and Greek....so what if some Turkish words are adapted in areas that were part of Ottoman empire... even if the whole vocabulary is shared that would mean nothing when it comes to genetics and origin.... 
> 
> btw. Deja Vu, can't you be more relaxed about topics we discuss here? I don't think most of people who come here are in mood to participate in argues and little wars with imaginary enemies....discussions should not be about propganada-like shouting on each other, but a joint effort to figure out what might be the truth about history events.... if you are not able to participate in discussions in civilized way with respect for other people and their origin, perhaps forums are not best place for you and maybe you should consider joining some army or some religious sect that will provide you with enemies and allow you to live in black/white them/us division of the world...


I was about to post something like that but you did it first! Dankjewel  :Smile: 

This whole thread seems stupid after all these posts... DejaVu's posts are filled with propaganda and he clearly has not critical thinking. If I didn't know that most people from FYROM have been fed lies by their government the last 30 years I would think he has mental issues (no offense).

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## DejaVu

*After your fake conclusions you have been revealed and now you are blind again? My post just showed your identity and there will be more so continue to have anger. You are so fake that you cant even answer your own admits.*

----------


## Marianne

No one has anger here but you. And your posts don't really show anything... You keep contradicting yourself. What you read online and what people tell you is not always correct.

I won't bother replying to you anymore because you are irrational and I can't make irrational people believe that the sky is blue... (Greek proverb). If they want the sky to be red I just let them be...

----------


## DejaVu

*Ofcourse you are blind your IQ is so low that you cant see the facts.*

*When are you going to confirm your statements?*

*Summary:*

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. *(no link)*

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. *(no link)*

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. *(no link)*

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. *(no link)*

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." *(no link)*


*Be proud and be Turkish christians, your real identity.*

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## Marianne

It's all in Dianekes blogspot. You can find it in google and search for yourself. Goodnight

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## DejaVu

*Bible information.*

*DANIEL 8:20-21*
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right
*20.* The ram which thou sawest having _two_ horns _are_ the kings of Media and Persia.
*21.* And the rough goat _is_ the king of Grecia: and the great horn that _is_ between his eyes _is_ the first king.
*By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.*


http://www.openbible.info/

Acts 16:9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us." 

Acts 16:10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them. 
Acts 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city. 
Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 
Acts 19:21 Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome." 
Acts 19:22 Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while. 
Acts 20:1 After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia. 
Acts 20:3 When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia. 
Romans 15:26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem. 
1 Corinthians 16:5 But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia. 
2 Corinthians 1:16 and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea. 
2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia. 
2 Corinthians 7:5 For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside. 
2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia; 
2 Corinthians 9:2 for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them. 
2 Corinthians 11:9 When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so. 
Philippians 4:15 You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only. 
1 Thessalonians 1:7 so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia. 
1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything. 
1 Thessalonians 4:10 for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

*If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?*



*Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece*

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution. 

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia. 

*Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries/nationalities?* 
*Because they are different nations/nationality since the beginning of existence.*

----------


## DejaVu

*The real Greeks?*
Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens (ARVANITE)
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Ieronymos_II_of_Athens*
He was born Ioannis Liapis (Greek: Ιωάννης Λιάπης, Iōánnēs Liápēs) in Oinofyta, Boeotia. He is an Arvanite. (Albanian)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos_Kountouriotis (ARVANITE)
*Pavlos Kountouriotis* (Greek: ΠαύλοςΚουντουριώτης, 9 April 1855 - 22 August 1935) was a Greekadmiral and naval hero during the Balkan Wars and the first and thirdPresident of the Second Hellenic Republic.
Pavlos Kountouriotis was a member of the Arvanite Kountouriotis family which originated from the island of Hydra, Saronic Islands as many of the heroes of 1821; many members of the family took part in the Greek War of Independence, including his grandfather, Georgios Kountouriotis, who was Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto. The original family name was Zervas but was changed to Kountouriotis, since one of their ancestors lived for a while in the village of Kountoura, Megarida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
*Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria* or *Othon, king of Greece* (Greek: Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, _Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos_; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
*Ioannis Kolettis* (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[_citation needed_] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
Count *Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias* (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: _Giovanni Capo d'Istria_, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a _conte_ (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the _Libro d'Oro_ of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from _Capodistria_, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the _Libro d'Oro_ since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

----------


## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...ece_and_Turkey
The *1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey* was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey and the Muslim citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and _de jure_ denaturalized from their homelands.

The criteria for the population exchange was not excusively confined to ethnicity or mother language, but on religion as well. That is why the Karamanlides (Greek: Καραμανλήδες; Turkish: _Karamanlılar_), or simply _Karamanlis_, who were a Turkish-speaking (while they employed the Greek alphabet to write it) Greek Orthodox people of unclear origin and were deported from their native regions of Karaman and Cappadocia in Central Anatolia to Greece as well. On the other hand, Cretan Muslims who were part of the exchange were re-settled mostly on the Aegean coast of Turkey, in areas formerly inhabited by Christian Greeks. Populations of Greek descent can still be found in the Pontos, remnants of the former Greek population that converted to Islam in order to escape the persecution and later deportation. Though these two groups are of ethnic Greek descent, they speak Turkish as a mother language and are very cautious to identify themselves as Greeks, due to the hostility of the Turkish state and neighbours towards anything Greek.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire. The total population (sum of all the millets) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206.

----------


## DejaVu

*Greek Refugee Settlement*
Source: “Crossing the Aegean: The Consequences of the 1923 Greek-Turkish Population Exchange” by Renee Hirschon, 2003, page 181.


“A Concise History of Greece” by Richard Clogg, 1992, page 105 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)
Macedonia (Greece) - Population2,625,681 (2006 Estimate)
*Regional identity*
Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, _Makedónes_) is the term by which ethnic Greeks originating from the region are known. Macedonians came to be of particular importance during the Balkan Wars when they were a minority population inside the Ottoman province of Macedonia. The Macedonians now have a strong regional identity, manifested both in Greece and by emigrant groups in the Greek diaspora. This sense of identity has been highlighted in the context of the Macedonian naming dispute after the break-up of Yugoslavia, in which Greece objects to its northern neighbour calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia", since explicit self-identification as _Macedonian_ is a matter of national pride for many Greeks. A characteristic expression of this attitude could be seen when Greek newspapers headlined a declaration by Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis at a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg in January 2007, saying that "_I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians._"
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Macedonian Greeks are ethnic Greeks who self-identify regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, _Makedónes_). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%). They number approximately 2,500,000 and live almost entirely in Greek Macedonia. The Greek Macedonian population is mixed, with indigenous and a large influx of Greek refugees descending from Asia Minor, Pontic Greeks, and East Thracian Greeks in the early 20th century. This is due to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey, during which over 1.2 million Christian refugees from Turkey were settled in Greece, 638,000 of whom were settled in Macedonia. Smaller Greek minorities exist in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, although their numbers are difficult to ascertain. In official census results, only 86 persons declared themselves Greeks in Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) in 2001, out of a total of 3,408 in all Bulgaria; while 442 described themselves as Greeks in the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia.

----------


## DejaVu

*The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!* 



1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
*And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.*
93.8% Greek,
4.3% Albanian,
1.9% others

----------


## DejaVu

*Good to know.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
*Mother Teresa* (26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997), born *Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu*
* 
Mother Teresa (Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu) // In Aromanian "Boiagi".
[Boiagi's are a wellknown Aromanian family originally from Albania. Her father Nikolla Boiagi was aromanian.]
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aromanians

----------


## iapetoc

*before you mention bible
read again and again the original 
it is written in greeks
and says in fillipi and thesaloniki they stayed among greeks
meaning that makedonia and greeks are the same*
*
read bible carefully*

----------


## iapetoc

*first the city names*

acts 16 11 Neapolis-> newcity
acts 15 11 samothrce
acts 15 12 Philippoi
acts 17 1 Amfipolis
acts 17 1 Apollonia
acts 17 1 Thessaloniki not Solunu you ......
acts 17 13 Beroia


*now 2nd lets see people names*

Lydia and Jason both Greek Names

*
and finnaly WHO ARE THE MAKEDONIANS

ACTS 17 12 THE VIP OF GREEK WOMAN, AND FROM GREEK MAN NOT A FEW*
_
SO IN MAKEDONIA ACCORDING TO PAUL LIVE THE GREEKS_

MORE????
*
ACTS 20 1,2 HE WENT OUT TO MAKEDONIA, SO HE ENTERED GREECE, SO MAKEDONIA IS GREEK*
*ACTS 20 21 TO JUDIANS AND GREEKS* (MAKEDONIA CITIZENS)

*
WHAT ELSE YOUR PROPAGANDA SPEAK
YOU SAY PAUL SHOW A MAN MAKEDON AND CLAIM MAKEDONIA IS NOT GREEK
AND BEHIND SAYS THAT THAT MAKEDONIA DWELT BY GREEKS*
SO YOU TAKE ONLY HALF AND MAKE SPAM AND YOU DONT ALL BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS AGAINST YOU 
_I LEAVE THE OTHERS OF THE FORUM TO JUDGE YOU_
SPAMMER

*BESIDES HE WENT O THESSALONIKI NOT SOLUNU NOT SKOPJE 
CAUSE IF WANTED TO GO THERE, PAUL PROBABLY SHOULD SEEN A SLAV MAN TO CALL HIM TO GO TO SKOPJE,*
hAHAHAHAHA 
*YOUR PROPAGANDA IS JUST A HOAX WITH NO BASIS
YOU TELL ALWAYS THE HALF TRUE AND DIVERSE IT TO LIE,
AND WHEN THE TRUTH REVIELS THEN YOU STOP AND YOU JUMP TO ANOTHER LIE*
hAHAHAHAHAHA

*BESIDES LOOK AT STRABO* 

_ΕΣΤΙΝ ΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΑΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ

_ACCEPT IT MAKEDONIA EPIROS CRETE PELOPONESE STEREA CYPRUS ARE PARTS OF GREEK NATION
AS BAYERN IS A PART OF GERMANY
AS LOMBARDIA OF ITALY
AS BRETAGNE OF FRANCE

GREECE HAD ALSO OTHER PARTS THAT TODAY BELONG TO OTHERS
LIKE MAGNA GRECIA (SOUTH ITALY AND SICILY)
IONIA (MINOR ASIA)
THRACE AND WEST BLACK SEA
AND PONTUS SOUTH BLACK SEA

EVEN TODAY LIVE GREEKS THERE BUT THAT AREAS ARE LOST

----------


## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
*Paul the Apostle*, also called the *Apostle Paul*, *Paul of Tarsus*, and *Saint Paul*, (Ancient Greek: Σαούλ (_Saul_), Σαῦλος (_Saulos_), and Παῦλος (_Paulos_); Latin: _Paulus_ or _Paullus_; Hebrew: שאול התרסי‎ _Šaʾul HaTarsi_ (_Saul of Tarsus_) (c. 5 - c. 67 ), was of the tribe of Benjamin. He was a zealous Jew, who persecuted the early followers of Jesus Christ. However after his "Resurrection experience", he began calling himself a Christian and referred to himself as the "Apostle to the Gentiles".


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki*
*Thessaloniki* (Greek: Θεσσαλονίκη, IPA: [θesaloˈnici]), *Thessalonica* or *Salonica* is the second-largest city in Greece and the capital of the region of Macedonia. Its honorific title is Συμπρωτεύουσα (_Symprotévousa_), literally "co-capital", a reference to its historical status as the Συμβασιλεύουσα (_Symvasilévousa_) or "co-reigning" city of the Byzantine Empire, alongside Constantinople.
The city was founded around 315 BC by the King Cassander of Macedon, on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma and 26 other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonike, a half-sister of Alexander the Great (_Thessalo-nikē_ means the "Thessalian victory") (See Battle of Crocus field). It was an autonomous part of the Kingdom of Macedon. After the fall of the kingdom of Macedon in 168 BC, Thessalonica became a city of the Roman Republic. It grew to be an important trade-hub located on the _Via Egnatia_; it facilitated trade between Europe and Asia. The city became the capital of one of the four Roman districts of Macedonia.


*What people lived in Thessalonica when Paul the Apostle arrived there year (c. 5 - c. 67 )?* Macedonians and maybe Romans, no others are mentioned there at that time. If Javans (Greeks) they mean Macedonians.
*By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum.*

*There is two places mentioned Macedonia and Greece, why?*
*If its the same why mention Macedonia and Greece, instead of Greece only, was it not the same place?* 
*Since when did the Ancient Macedonians get along with rest of the occupied Greeks (Greeks were occupied by Ancient Macedonians at that time before Romans conquered them).*

----------


## iapetoc

BESIDES WHO CARES
TOMORROW YOU WILL BE KOSSYFO PEOPLE

YOU BELONG TO KOSSYFOPEDIO AS BEFORE
YOU ARE HALF ALBANIANS

----------


## iapetoc

*you are ignorant* 
*new teastament was written in greek not hebrew*

*and names clearly that Makedonia ARE GREEKS , NOT JAVANS BUT HELLENES*
*
ACTS 17 12*

*YOU SO IGNORANT THAT YOU INSIST THAT NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN HEBREW
*
_OH NO I M MISTAKEN MAYBE NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN SLAVO-MAKEDONIAN
_
HAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHA WHY CROATIA IS HRVATSKA AND DALMATIA?
DALMATIA IS NOT CROATIA?
WHY WE SAY BAYERN MUNCHEN 
BAYERN IS NOT GERMANY?

HAHAHAHAHA
KEEP DREAMING

*IT MENTIONS AREAS NOT NATIONS
PAUL IS MENTIONING AREAS NOT NATIONS 
THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK*

----------


## DejaVu

*Mr. Exclusive fake Greek*

Are you starting to lose yourself again? Are you on drugs?
Cant you understand what the sources are saying?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament
The *New Testament* (Greek: Καινὴ Διαθήκη, _Kainē Diathēkē_) is the second major division of the Christian biblical canon, the first such division being the much longer Old Testament.
*The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land at the time of Jesus were* *Aramaic**,* *Koine Greek**, and to a limited extent a colloquial dialect of* *Mishnaic Hebrew**.* All of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the Roman provinces of the Eastern Mediterranean at the time. These books were later translated into other languages, most notably, Latin, Syriac, and Coptic. However, some of the Church Fathers imply or claim that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic. Nevertheless, the Gospel of Matthew known today was composed in Greek and is neither directly dependent upon nor a translation of a text in a Semitic language, though the citation of texts from the Old Testament demonstrates that the author of the Gospel of Matthew did know Hebrew.

*DOES NOT SAY IT WAS WRITTEN BY ANY GREEK (Koine was not exclusive for Greeks only).* 
*SO STOP THE DRUGS AND BE NORMAL.* 
*You win the price for the dumbest haplogroup G person on this forum.*

----------


## iapetoc

Relax
the ww1 is over
bulgaria has lost
tito is dead
and albanians are ready to claim tetovo to kossovo
soon you ll ask for a new id

----------


## DejaVu

*WANNA PLAY PATRIOT? IF YOU WANT TO PLAY STUPID THEN I HAVE TO BE ON YOUR LEVEL WHEN WE CONTINUE THE DISCUSSIONS, BECAUSE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH.* 

*Be ready to lose Macedonia in 2013 when 100 years are gone and the treaty ends.* 
*Over 1 million Macedonians are waiting in your country, to kick your ass.*
*Albanians want Epirus back from your occupation so count about 1 more million that want their share back. And all other minority people who want their identity recognition. Not many Greeks left in the Fake Greek country.* 


*"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that*
*was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"*  

*UNITED MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)
*SMRT ILI SLOBODA.*

----------


## DejaVu

*OCCUPIED TERRITORIES*

Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).

The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30]
The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea, i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea*
*Megali Idea* (modern Greek: ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks, since large Greek populations after the Greek independence in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman rule.
The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime MinisterIoannis Kolettis with King Otto that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire by establishing a Greek state, which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea to _Mikra Asia_ (Asia Minor) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea) to the east, and from Thrace, Macedonia and Epirus, north, to Crete and Cyprus to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople.
The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece, from the War of Independence in the 1820s through the Balkan wars in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) and the Great Fire of Smyrna in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923.

----------


## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
*William Ewart Gladstone FRS FSS* (29 December 1809 – 19 May 1898) was a British Liberal statesman. In a career lasting over sixty years, he served as Prime Minister four times (1868–1874, 1880–1885, February–July 1886 and 1892–1894), more than any other person. Gladstone was 84 years old - still physically vigorous albeit with failing hearing and eyesight - when he resigned for the last time, making him Britain's oldest Prime Minister. He also served as Chancellor of the Exchequer four times (1853–1855, 1859–1866, 1873–1874, and 1880–1882).

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
The hopelessness of the Turkish Government should make me witness with delight its being swept out of the countries which it tortures. Next to the Ottoman Government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians?
Letter quoted in The Times (London), _Mr. Gladstone and The Balkan Confederation_ (1897-02-06).

----------


## iapetoc

*At least i will die as my father Leonidas*

*come and get it*

*Μολων λαβε*

*2 000 000 Makedonians will await you 2013*
*
No union with Slavs* *even if NATO wants it,

*
besiides tetovo to albania, kumanovo to serbia, strumnitsa to bulgaria
the end of the hoax

AND THE GREEK KIDS THAT TITO KIDNAPED BACK TO GREECE


*
TRUE MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM*

ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΞΑΚΟΥΣΤΗ ΤΟΥ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ Η ΧΩΡΑ
OH FAMOUS MAKEDONIA, ALEXANDERS COUNTRY
ΠΟΥ ΕΔΙΩΞΕΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΥΘΕΡΗ ΕΙΣΑΙ ΠΑΛΙ
YOU KICKED BACK BULGARIANS AND YOU ARE FREE AGAIN
ΗΣΟΥΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΑ ΣΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΤΟ ΚΑΜΑΡΙ
YOU WERE AND YOU WILL BE GREEK , THE PRIDE OF ALL GREEKS

*I AM MAKEDONIAN ORIGINAL FROM BALLA PIERIA 
I AM NOT A SLAV 
I DONT CLAIM SKOPJE CAUSE ITS NOT MY LAND
STOP CLAIMING MY LAND MY NATIONALITY AND MY HISTORY AND IDENTITY*

MY GRAND GRAND FATHER SUFFERED ENOUGH OF YOU, 
HE FOUGHT YOU AT NAOUSA AND EDESSA LOST HIS FOOT
YOU TOOK 16 KIDS OF OUR VILLAGE AT 1948
NO MORE

*IN THE BIBLE AT ACTS 17 12 SAYS THAT MAKEDONIA WAS INHABITED BY GREEKS*

*I COME FROM THE TRUE ANCIENT MAKEDONIA*

*NO TREATY WILL TELL ME WHO I AM*
*BESIDES I LIVE IN MY FATHERS LANDS* 

*
I DONT WANT TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH 4 NATIONS 3 RELIGIONS* 
_GREEKS ALBANIANS SERBS AND BULGARIANS
ORTHODOX CATHOLIC AND MUSLIM_
BESIDES THAT AREA OF VARDASKA IS NOT MY COUNTRY, AND NEVER WAS

*LOOK CAREFULLY* *SKOPJE IS OUT* 
*THAT IS MY COUNTRY AND LAND*





*i said that new testament was written in Greek, and Lucas was a Greek*
so the Acts of Apostols is tottaly *Hellenic languag*e (not Greek koine but Hellenistic Koine)
and in new testament says clerly that in *Thessaloniki not Solun* apostolos Paulos *lived among Greeks*
*were it says Slavians????* 
*you were at Steppes that time*
*does he says SLAVIANS ???? DOES HE SAYS BULGARIANS? OR SERBS?* 
*NO IT SAYS GREEKS ROMAN AND JEWS*

*why? cause you were at Ucraine or Slovakia or above Donau* *at that time*

*Understand English and stop Pretending*
*You are a Slav* a Slav who lived many years in *ex SERBIAN CAPITAL*, AND *SPEAK BULGARIAN*

*you have the right for a country but not the right to steal my History*
*stop dreaming

the only acceptable name is Slavo-Makedonia

You are funny you claim my history, my name my lands my country, and you believe that i will let you? or i believe you?

all refuges came here under exchange of population
turks left greeks came
Bulgarian left Greeks 
40 000 people of Monastiri (bitola came to Greece)* *
except Perlepe etc

how many went to skopje????
excange of population was done,**
this is not 1913

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monasti...Ottoman_Empire
*
There is opposing ethnographic data from that period, but it appears that no specific ethnic or religious group could claim an absolute majority of the population. According to the 1911 Ottoman census, Greeks were the largest Christian population in the vilayet, with 740,000 Greeks, 517,000 Bulgarians and 1,061,000 Muslims in the vilayets of Selanik (Thessaloniki) and Manastır.* 

in 1821 Monastir(bitola) revolt
and has 5 Greeks Heroes
Σωτήριος Δαμιάνοβις[5][6], ο Δημήτριος Βούλγαρης, ο Στέργιος Νικολάου, ο Νικόλαος Σακκούλας και ο Νικόλαος Αδάμης

almost 65 000 greeks left area and came to Greece

even Manaki brothers who were Aromani vlachs (Armani) you make them Slavians
its a shame

besides its 2014 that is with turks
its 2012 and you know it well. the big bam

----------


## DejaVu

*Your father is not Leonidas, Pasha from Turkey is.*

----------


## DejaVu

*You dont give up? Time for more jokes :)*

*I AM THE REAL ANCESTOR OF - PHILIP II MACEDON - WHO WILL PLACE A STATUE OF A LION AFTER MY VICTORY AND CONQUEST.*

Philip II Macedon defeated the Illyrians, the Thracians, the Greeks, the Scythians, and Triballians. 
Greek version, he united the greeks with a phalanx in their ass. 

*Evidence:*
*LUDVIG XVI and I are same from ROOT (Y-DNA - G2a3b1a), who is a relative to Philip II of Macedon.* 
*(And so are all humans from Adam and Eve).* 


*The Royal Bloodline Family Genealogy* 

by David Icke http://www.davidicke.com/

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/bushbloodline.shtml 

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/me...vingios_02.htm 

I have recently been sent a series of genealogical charts which detail a bloodline and its off shoots that will be highly relevant to the readers of The Biggest Secret. I had no idea of their existence when I wrote The Biggest Secret. Yet it reads like an index of the book and most, if not all, of the major players in the advancing agenda of global control over thousands of years. These charts are stunning confirmation that the same bloodlines have expanded their power out of the Near and Middle East of the ancient world to control the planet today, precisely as detailed in The Biggest Secret. 

*For readers of The Biggest Secret the following will prove extremely interesting:*

The Merovingians

This bloodline and its offshoots includes a long line of pharaohs in ancient Egypt, including Rameses II (1295-1228 BC), who is considered to be the greatest pharaoh of all. He was his country's master architect (sacred geometry) and his name can be found on almost every ancient shrine. The gold mines of Nubia made him rich beyond the imagination. This bloodline also includes the extraterrestrial-human hybrids who ruled Sumer, Babylon, Greece, and Troy, and which, today, rule the world.

*One common link in this bloodline is Philip of Macedonia (382-336BC),who married Olympias, and their son was Alexander the Great (356-323BC), a tyrant who plundered that key region of Greece, Persia, Syria, Phoenicia, Egypt, Babylon, the former lands of Sumer, and across into India before dying in Babylon at the age of 33.* During his rule of Egypt he founded the city of Alexandria, one the greatest centers for esoteric knowledge in the ancient world. Alexander was taught by the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, who in turn was taught by Plato and he by Socrates. The bloodline and the hidden advanced knowledge have always gone together.

*This key bloodline comes down through the most famous Egyptian queen, Cleopatra (60-30BC), who married the most famous Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and bore him a son, who became Ptolemy XIV. She also bore twins with Mark Anthony, who has his own connections to this line and its many offshoots; this bloodline also connects to Herod the Great, the "Herod" of the Jesus stories, and continues to the Roman Piso family who, as I explain in The Biggest Secret, wrote the Gospel stories and invented the mythical figure called Jesus!!; the same bloodline includes Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor who, in 325AD, turned Christianity, based on his ancestors' stories, into the religion we know today, and King Ferdinand of Spain and Queen Isabella of Castile, the sponsors of Christopher Columbus, who instigated the horrific Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) in which people were tortured and burned at the stake for in any way questioning the basis of the religion their various ancestors had created.*

More than that, the most used version of the Bible [King James Bible] was commissioned and sponsored by another strand in the same bloodline, King James 1st of England. Just a coincidence, nothing to worry about! The line of James, according to genealogy sources listed below, can be traced back to 1550 BC and beyond and includes many Egyptian pharaohs, including Rameses II.

*The bloodline moved into France and northern Europe through the Franks and Meroveus or Merovee, who gave his name to the Merovingian bloodline, and it continues with the rest of the Merovingian clan like Clovis and the Dagoberts who connect into the elite secret society, the Priory of Sion and the Rennes-le-Chateau "mystery" in Languedoc [Provence], Southern France. Many books have been written recently which claim that the Merovingians are the bloodline of "Jesus".*

Some of these authors have just been mistaken, others have blatantly sought to confuse and mislead. The Merovingians are a key bloodline, yes, but it has nothing to do with Jesus, who was invented by an earlier family in the same line, the Pisos. Authors like Sir Laurence Gardner (Bloodline of the Holy Grail and a favorite of Nexus Magazine and its owner, Duncan Roads) MUST know this and yet they still connect the Merovingians to "Jesus". Why??

The Merovingians were Goddess Diana worshippers, as are so many in this line to the present day. They founded the city we call Paris and on one of their former sites of Diana ritual, Princess Diana was murdered in the Pont d'Alma tunnel (meaning "bridge or passage of the Moon Goddess") on August 31st, 1997. As The Biggest Secret points out, the Windsors, another Merovingian bloodline, were very much involved in this ritual murder.

*From the Merovingians, this bloodline's connections to the present day include: Charlemagne (742-814), who ruled as Emperor of the West in the Holy Roman Empire; a stream of French kings, including Robert II, Philip Ist, II and III, and Louis Ist, II, VI, VII, VIII, VIIII, XIII, IX, XV, and XVI. The latter married Marie Antoinette of this same bloodline and both were executed in the French Revolution. But they produced the son who became Daniel Payseur, who, as The Biggest Secret explains, was taken to the United States where he became the secret force behind the Morgan and Carnegie empires and owned vast amounts of real estate, banking, and industrial holdings.*

This bloodline also connects to the de Medici family which supported Christopher Columbus and produced Catherine de Medici, the Queen of France who died in 1589. Her doctor was Nostradamus: It includes Rene d'Anjou, Duke of Lorraine, and the House of Lorraine which employed Nostradamus and Christopher Columbus. The bloodline relatives of the de Medicis and the House of Lorraine, Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Spain, were also sponsors of Columbus when he "discovered" the Americas.

This bloodline also includes the Habsburgs, the most powerful family in Europe under the Holy Roman Empire; Geoffrey Plantagenet and the Plantagenet royal dynasty in England; King John, who signed the Magna Carta; King Henry Ist, II, and III, who were extremely close to the Knights Templar, as was King John; Mary Stuart and the Stuart Dynasty, including King James Ist of England, sponsor of the King James version of the Bible; King George Ist, II, and III; Edward Ist, II, and III, Queen Victoria; Edward VII; George V and VI; Queen Elizabeth II; Prince Charles and Elizabeth's other offspring, Anne, Andrew and Edward; Princes William and Harry from Charles' "marriage" to Princess Diana; US Presidents, George Washington, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and George Bush are all named in the charts as strands of this bloodline; it was passed on to the year 2000 US presidential favorite, George W. Bush Jr., and his brother, Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida.

In fact if you go deeply enough into the genealogical research you will find that ALL the presidents are from this line. Genealogical sources, like the New England Historical Genealogical Society and Burkes Peerage, have shown that 33 of the 42 presidents [up] to Clinton are related to Charlemagne and 19 are related to England's Edward III, both of whom are of this bloodline. A spokesman for Burkes Peerage, the bible of royal and aristocratic genealogy based in London, has said that every presidential election since and including George Washington in 1789 has been won by the candidate with the most royal genes. Now we can see how and why. United States presidents are not chosen by ballot, they are chosen by blood!

*This same bloodline also includes key Scottish families like the Lords of Galloway and the Comyns; Marie-Louise of Austria, who married Napoleon Bonaparte; Kaiser Wilhelm II, the king of Germany at the time of the First World War; and Maximilian, the Habsburg emperor of Mexico, who died in 1867. On and on it goes into country after country. This bloodline connects into every surviving royal family in Europe, including King Juan Carlos of Spain and the Dutch, Swedish, and Danish royal lines.*

And this is just ONE of the reptilian bloodlines and just SOME of its offshoots.

There are others which connect with these names and span the same period and beyond to thousands of years BC. Detailed family trees of the above are available on: Piso Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/biz5/piso/)

----------


## LeBrok

That's the Greeks good will to make friends and peace in Europe? I'm sorry Elias, I like you very much, but this is what I learnt from Eupedia posts, and take it from the impartial observer, who don't care for any of involved countries.

Greeks hate Turks, despise Albanians, Bulgarians are enemies, Macedonians want to destroy Greece, Serbians probably not much better, they are Slavs after all.
Can you see you don't have even one neighbour you can call a friend???!!!
And all I can hear is how victimized the Greece is. " They want to take our land, take our names away, we are the victims." Please, stop whining and show some positive action.

I'm not defending any other country mentioned, and I think they are not helping the cause of european unity much either. I'll be as much objective about them when a time comes.

Take it from impartial commentator.
Greeks are in state of Paranoia. And I don't see any cooperation or compromises here. For me the straw that broke the camel's back was the arguing about a "stupid" name.

----------


## DejaVu

*Only a non-greek can say what you just wrote and thats the real problem here.* 

*If people think they can play hard then be ready to receive the same.*

*Greek view:*
*Its Impossible to talk about Macedonians and Macedonia its already Greek in their dream and thats end of discussion.*

----------


## iapetoc

Get lost, what positive, the man can't understand,
*he claims my land my name me history,*
teach him manners lebrok not me,
i don't claim nothing,
*simply i dont want to enter in a state with 4 languges 4 nations 3 religions, to satisfy his dream*
*is he a Slavian or not?
ask him?*

*DejaVu are you a Slavian or not?*

*we don't want your offer,*
even if Nato or other push us to do it we dont Wanted it,
*keep your lands, stop claiming my identity and my lands, and then we move to future,*

*else the way is known,
the old good method
Mikhail Kalashnikov
Yuriiiiiiii*

besides everybody knows who is behind Greek Crisis, 
who pushed to IMF and who gone back to others

Lebrok if you are not a balkanian you can't understand,
*yesterday we didn't know each other
today we drink wine together and have fun
tomorrow we fight with music still drunken*
*the day after we meet and cry,
and the day after the day after tomorrow we drink again*

That is ballkan lebrok
Dejavu knows it,
we provoke each other, as we can drink wine in an Aegean beach, or slibovica in the banks of Bardar, and tomorrow fight , and the day after tomorrow still friends,
right now i am drink a family pack wine from SKOVIN skopje, brought by a friend,

when he brought it to me, i pass with blank tape over Makedonsko vino,
when i return him a Greek Makedonian halva he erase the Greek flag

when i go to my friends in Bulgaria I never say Plovdiv but Phillipopolis when he come in Greece never says Edessa or thessaloniki but Vodena and Solunu

only when i go to Serbia i don't meet such things,

it is simple the country that Dejavu offers me is according map
with 4 ethnicities 4 languages 3 religions
its not my home, not my language,
thank you i don't wanted it
skopje was never my land
*its full of I2a2, which was never a Greek Haplogroup
meaning that even by blood is different,*

*tell them to stop claiming, and then we go on to better relations,
by claiming they only win enemies 

this is not Korea that is divited by political
this a 2 different nations being one,
you cant put the bull and the wolf in the same stable
*
you may have 2 ox to pull a wagon or 2 horses, or 10 dogs
but you never put an ox with a dog or a horse with ox
have you ever seen that?
where the wagon go? to the lake or to the rocks?

*it is simple they claim that lived in makedonia villaet, ok
so the name Makedonian for for them is what ?
a geogrfical area they live?
or a nationality?
cause if it is a geografical ok then they have also an ethicitie which?
but if is an ethnicitie then they admit that they are greek!!, or they are not!!!
as they say they are not, 
so who are they?

tell me Lebrok
who are they? 

for me they are either Paenones or slavs cause they speak slavian
ok let them have the ethnicitie and the Makedonian after
like 
Slavo-Makedonia
or bulgaro -Makedonia
or Thraco-Makedonia
or Paionomakedonia

it is not the land that gives name to people,
its the people who give name to land
France is after Francais not Normands
Germany is after Deutch not Bayerns

*let them stop claiming and name their nationality
*
your proposal are unacceptable 2 000 000 in Makedonia ,3 000 000 Makedonians in Greece, and 5 000 000, all over the world will always say the truth,

stop claiming my land and nationality you are unwelcome with that proposal

*

----------


## Marianne

LeBrok I have told you before that since you are not from the balkans you will never be able to understand it. The Balkan nations are always in conflict with each other. 

You are perfectly able to understand the situation in the Middle East right? Then you should think of the Balkans as a more peacefull version of what is going on there.

We are not lucky enough to be where France is and have Germany, England and Spain around us to live peacefully with them. Since ancient times our country has been the target of every expanding nation because of our geographical position. Everyone wants a piece of our land. We are used to defending our country against preditors... You can't walk in our shoes so you will never be able to understand it. Iapetoc described our relations very well in the post above, but still it is not easy to fully understand it unless you have lived here. The country you are living in doesn't have our problems. You don't have the Turks claiming the Aegean and west Thrace, you don't have FYROM claiming Macedonia, nor Albanians claiming Epirus. You have USA claiming nothing... You are lucky...

----------


## Elias2

> That's the Greeks good will to make friends and peace in Europe? I'm sorry Elias, I like you very much, but this is what I learnt from Eupedia posts, and take it from the impartial observer, who don't care for any of involved countries.
> 
> Greeks hate Turks, despise Albanians, Bulgarians are enemies, Macedonians want to destroy Greece, Serbians probably not much better, they are Slavs after all.
> Can you see you don't have even one neighbour you can call a friend???!!!
> And all I can hear is how victimized the Greece is. " They want to take our land, take our names away, we are the victims." Please, stop whining and show some positive action.
> 
> I'm not defending any other country mentioned, and I think they are not helping the cause of european unity much either. I'll be as much objective about them when a time comes.
> 
> Take it from impartial commentator.
> Greeks are in state of Paranoia. And I don't see any cooperation or compromises here. For me the straw that broke the camel's back was the arguing about a "stupid" name.


Greece and bulgaria are fine with each other, both are in the EU, NATO, and share similar geographical interests. Greece and Albania are fine with each other, its just the nationalists that say otherwise. Greece and serbia and the other slavic countries, montenegro, ukraine, even russia, actually have really good relations with each other. 

Greece and turkey, well, the agean warmongering and cyprus isn't helping, both of which are illegal, but you ask greece to comprismise? I don't think so. FYROM is built on lies and propaganda which promotes radical views and a distaste for the historical truth as seen here with dejavu who acts like a wild dog. FYROM adopted this "manifest vendetta" against greece because Bulgaria lost the second balkan war which Greece aquired greek macedonia. As long as they think they are 'ethnic macedonians', something I have proven wrong and only brought about due to communist brainwashing, the longer they hide from reality. You and I have similar views about european integration and understanding, but not much understanding on the issues keeping them apart.I don't think you "put yourself in the other persons shoes" when it comes to Greece here. How is a country or its citizens supposed to react when two of its neighbors have land claims against you and promote them domestically? Then you hear outside poeple saying find a comprimise, I'm sorry there is no comprimise to land claims against you, infact such claims could be seen as a decloration of war if they actually start sending war machines into your territory like turkey does in the agean.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

----------


## LeBrok

I'm glad that maybe it's not that bad as I thought. ;)

----------


## iapetoc

Lebrok ask DejaVu,
What language that state is claiming shall have as Primary?
the slavomakedonian 
or the GrecoMakedonian

What alphabet we have?
the Greek or the Cyrillic ???

*who will be our Heroes my grand father who fought Bulgarians?
or his who fought Greeks*
what history will write?

captain Litsas or Melas (true Makedonian)
or Yane Sandasky will be a hero? (SlavoMakedonian)

Besides look the difference
i write Makedonia with K as Greeks
he writes Macedonia with C as all slav do

do you understand now Lebrok?

Yugo-Slavia expirement is over, tito f... us All in balkans
how many people died by his policy?????

Why to make a new Yugoslavia of 4 nations 4 languages 3 religion
just to make wars Today and after 50 years to Break down and make a new war

that Dejavu is proposing is to Create a new Yugoslavia with the name Makedonia with the Treaty of 1913?????
or simply if we don't accept he will conquer us and always claim my nationality and lands
*
That is not a Friendly proposal*

----------


## Elias2

I'm 100% positive that once a comprimise has been reached between Greece and FYROM relations will only improve with each other as, like Bulgaria, FYROM and Greece have similar geographical interests with each other and good relations will emerge over time.

That will leave Greece to focus its attention to Turkey and solving the disputes there, though I'm not sure Turkey really wants to resolves the issues as they are on the wrong end of said disputes in international law.  :Confused:

----------


## DejaVu

*Must repost you are avoiding facts AGAIN. NOTICE: Its not Titos Almanac.*
*If you are going to continue with lies then it will be more posts and reposts.*


*The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!* 



1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


*Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
*And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.*
93.8% Greek,
4.3% Albanian,
1.9% others

----------


## Elias2

Of course there is a macedonian minority in Greece, the two countries boarder each other, what's your point?

----------


## DejaVu

*The name is Macedonians not Bulgarians and Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece. 
* 

http://www.florina.org/
*POLITICAL PARTY OF THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY IN GREECE*
Member of the European Free Alliance - European Political Party (EFA-EPP)
Member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (FUEN)

On September 8th, 1995, the members of the ethnic Macedonian political party in Greece, the RAINBOW PARTY, opened an office in the city of Florina.

On 19th January 1997 the Second Conference of the "RAINBOW" party was held in Florina. The Conference was attended by 76 delegates of all local units.

At that time it adopted a Political Manifesto and Organizational Principles, in addition to electing a Central Council comprised of 19 members.

Out of the 76 participant delegates, only Mr. Traianos Pasois and Mr. Hristos Pritskas, disagreed with the national-political character of the organization, the decisions made by the majority, and withdrew from the Conference.

The Central Council held its first session in Edessa (Voden) on the January 26th, 1997, and elected a five-member Political Secretariat, an Economic Commission, an Editors' Council, etc. It was decided to publish the follow-up materials (conclusions) of the Second Conference in the next edition of the Newsletter. *The letter will be available in Macedonian and Greek.*

Also the Central Council unanimously decided to exclude the above mentioned members on the grounds of their actions which were contrary to the Organization's Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.

In its Political Manifesto "RAINBOW" has aired its wish to cooperate with all democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the country in its struggle for peace and European integration.

To this purpose - attributing great significance to minority issues and the developing of political democracy in the country - "RAINBOW" will Launch initiatives to establish cooperation on basis of a joint political platform with all democratic forces.

The Central Council would like to express its gratitude, on behalf of all members and supporters of "RAINBOW" to all Macedonians who have aided our efforts materially and morally thus contributing to the achievement of our objective as an organization.

----------


## Elias2

Macedonian as a national sence not an ethnic sense. You can thank Tito for the brainwashing.


Rainbow party:

*Results, 1994–2009
(year links to election page)* Year Type of Election Votes % Mandates 1994 European Parliament 7,263 0.10 0 1996 Parliament 3,4851 0.05 - 1999 European Parliament 4,951 0.08 0 2004 European Parliament 6,176 0.10 0 2009 European Parliament 4,530 0.09 0

The highest number of votes they got was in 1994 with 7,263. Impressive in fact that you claim there are 1 million macedonians in greece.

----------


## DejaVu

*Western Europeans created Greece and brainwashed some christian Turks that became modern Greeks.*

----------


## Marianne

@Elias2

How can you have a decent conversation with such a person? 



> Western Europeans created Greece and brainwashed some christian Turks that became modern Greeks.


It is obvious there is no logic in his posts... We have posted and repeated so many researches that prove that Greeks are not mixed with Turks, that Greeks cluster with the rest of Europeans and have been the same people since ancient times but there is no pleasing him...

I think you are wasting your time replying. It is clear that he only joined this forum to troll about the Macedonian issue since 100% of his posts are about this topic and they provide no historical evidence to support the brainwashing that has happened to him. There are many people from Skopje like him searching the web for forums with such topics and then register just to troll and spread their propaganda about the issue...

----------


## DejaVu

How can you have a decent conversation with such a person? 
*Elias2 - "You can thank Tito for the brainwashing." - (a 12 year old comment.)*

*Have showed you that Macedonians are Macedonians and you are continuing to spread fake identity (Bulgarians, Skopians, Slavs, Tito invention and more). "Marianne, Elias2 and iapetoc"*

----------


## Elias2

@ marianne

You have to talk to them in a decent manner even though they don't do the same, it only makes them look bad

@ dejavu

If you think Western powers created greece you need to do research on the greek enlightenment that came of the momentum of the french revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment

----------


## DejaVu

*There are 131 countries which makes more than 2/3 of the United Nations that recognize* *Republic of Macedonia** under its constitutional name as of 18 January, Bolivia being the last one.* 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute


*List of countries/entities* 
(dark green) that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.
(red) that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.
(green) whose official position on the issue is unknown.
(grey) that have no diplomatic relations with the country

----------


## iapetoc

The highest number of votes they got was in 1994 with 7,263. Impressive in fact that you claim there are 1 million macedonians in greece. 

the name of the party Rainbow Ουρανιο Τοξο
SlavoMakedonian minority party
1 man and 1 cleric
Votes 7 000 max

what 1 million you say?
Do in Skopje they tell you that you are 1 million In Aegean?
and you Believe them??

If you were 1 million you would revolt, 
simply 7 000 votes 

and you will tell me that Greeks are fasists Country, thank you
*
Another of your Arquements fall in Emptyness*

----------


## iapetoc

ok now lets ask that countries,

*did they accept you as fathers of Alexander?
Did they accept also your claims?*

*I don't think so

they simply as Greece accept you as an Indipedent Country
 
I don't Believe they Accept also your claims
*

----------


## Elias2

> How can you have a decent conversation with such a person? 
> *Elias2 - "You can thank Tito for the brainwashing." - (a 12 year old comment.)*


12 year old comment or blunt truth? I think the latter.

----------


## DejaVu

*Must repost you are avoiding facts AGAIN. NOTICE: Its not Titos Almanac.*
*If you are going to continue with lies then it will be more posts and reposts.*


*The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!* 



1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


*Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
*And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.*
93.8% Greek,
4.3% Albanian,
1.9% others

*1.8% Macedonians in Greece of 11,239 millions total people = more then 200 000 Macedonians.*
*(The others are afraid of losing their job by self-determination)*

*The Macedonians of Greece speak out! (over 1 million Macedonians in Greece)*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

----------


## Elias2

@ Dejavu

I'm not avoiding anything, and I comment on everything you say, but you don't comment on my rebuttals. So tell me these things;

why do you say there are 1 million macedonians in greece when you rainbow party only got 7,000 votes at most in 1994? Considering its a secret ballot process there is no need to fear backlash.

why did the VMRO (_internal macedonian Revolutionary organization)_ fight for Sofia in the balkan wars? Why did Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader call himself Bulgarian?

If there is a different ethnic macedonian people apart from Bulgaria, why do Macdonians group so closely with bulgarians in DNA studies?

Why are you so adament about not comprimising with Greece over the name dispute?

If you don't answer these questions is just goes to show you are just another ultra-nationalist.

----------


## DejaVu

*The Bulgarian or was he Macedonian?*

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## Elias2

_"The political and military leaders of the slavs of macedonia at teh turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as bulgarians rather than macedonians. The political goals of the internal macedonian Revolutionary organization (VMRO) were the liberation of macedonia from the Ottoman Empire, and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonia, but VMRO's leadership was challenged by the formation of the supreme macedonian comittee in Sofia, whose ultimate foal was the annexation of macedonian by Bulgaria. Inspite of these political differences, both groups, including those who advocated an independent macedonian state and opposed the idea of a greater bulgaria, never seem to have doubted "the predominantly bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia". Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de guerre was Ahil (achilles), refers to "the slavs of macadonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention". In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply "we are bulgarians"._

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## DejaVu

*Repost again you dont care about reading only care for questions.*


*It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

*The League of the Nations _had not visited_ Aegean Macedonia and did not participate _at all_ in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. 
*Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.
Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show.
according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified: 
_"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..."_ and: 
_"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language"._
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language. 
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875: 
_"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,_
_"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"_
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show.

*The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.*
For shorter and better review of the use and meaning of the term "Bulgarian" starting from the 10th century and especially during the Turkish domination of the Balkans will consider several referential examples that testify against Bulgarian Nationalist doctrine.

According to the Bulgarian historiography all mentions,and very often wrong, with this name which is for her a fateful moment, that this is them - Bulgarians.

“Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification.”
- (Smith, Anthony. "National Identity" published in London 1991, p. 22)

A.Todorov-Balan in his "One Macedonian theory”, book 9-10, Sofia, 1905, 818, states that in the XIX century the Balkan peoples,called the Russian czar -" Bulgarian Tsar "and the Serbian and Russian language - "Bulgarian".

The term "Bulgarian” during the Ottoman rule denoted – a peasant farmer.

While the "Grecian" denoted a person of higher class or merchant.

*"During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like 'Greek' or 'Bulgarian' were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups, but rather broad socio-cultural categories"* (Danforth 1995:59)
- (Mirca Madianou , “Mediating the Nation“, p. 30, is Lecturer and Director of Studies in Social and Political Sciences, Lucy Cavendish College, University of Cambridge)

"*The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire* (Friedman 1975:84), *or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense.* "(Wilkinson 1951:149),
- (Loring M. Danforth „The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press, 1997, p. 59)

“ *For example, in Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, class and ethnicity overlapped, resulting in the utilization of the terms “Serb” and “Bulgar” to denote the peasantry per se. Since most peasants were Slavs and most Slavs were peasants, class distinctions often became ethnic distinctions* ( Slijepcevic 1958, 82-96; Kofos 1964; Vermulen 1984; Shashko 1973).
*When the Slavs moved into the urban world or became members of the middle classes, they generally shifted their identity to Greek. In Belgrade, for example, Serbian townsmen dressed in the Greek style, the Belgrade newspapers included the rubric Greciia (Greece), and the local Christian “higher strata” were Grecophone until 1840* – according to Stoianovich 1994, 294; and Karanovich 1995, 31. 
In Southern Albania and Greece during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, thousands of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs became completely Hellenized ( Skendi 1980, 187-204)”.
- (Victor Roudometof “Nationalism,Orthodoxy, and Globalization”p. 48)


We are witnesses of the phenomenon of “ethnicization” of the religious, social or occupational groups in Balkans, very often these groups were denoted by the names of ethnic communities and they used these names to denote themselves as well.

The term "Grecian" could mean "an Orthodox Christian," but also "reseller" or generally "well situated" citizen. in the same way, "Turk" most marked "Muslim" and "Bulgarian" was a highlight, "villager", with or without an offensive meaning. "Vlach" and marked "shepherd" or "nomads" in general. "Albanian" (arnautin) could be applied to a man from each ethnic group who performed certain military tasks
The term “Grecian” could mean “Orthodox Christian” but also a “city dweller” or gennerally “well to do citizen”. In the same way,”Turk” often meant “Muslim”, with “Bulgarian” to denote a “villager”, with ot without pejorative connotation. “Vlach” could mean “shepherd” or “nomad” in general.”Albanian” (arnautin) could apply to a person of any ethnic origin performing specific military tasks
- (Dēmētrēs Tziovas , „Greece and the Balkans“ p. 43)


According the references of Prof. Keith Brown, “Turk” implied official persona – functionary, “Grecian” meant – merchant, “Bulgarian” – villager, farmer and “Vlach” – shepherd, rancher.
“When the Macedonian peasants use the term Bulgar, they mean by it: 1) people of a simple and hard-working life, 2) the bulk of simple labourers who speak Slavic, in contrast to the non-Slavs, the Greeks and the Turks, who are above this majority and consider them inferior. The first meaning is the main one: the word “Bulgar” denotes in the first case a simple mode of life, work and thought.”
- (Keith Brown, „The Past in Question, modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation“, p. 59)

Habsburg authorities in Transylvania, tended to call all members of Orthodox merchant companies “Greeks”, irrespective thet they included not only Slavs, Romanians, and Christian Albanians, but also a sprinkle of Armenians and Jews. Western travelers in Macedonia, quickly realized that the term “Bulgarian” was locally used to describe poor Slav peasants.
- (Katerina Zacharia и Dimitris Livianos „ Hellenisms: culture, identity, and ethnicity from antiquity to modernity“, p. 249)

“In Macedonia, as late as the early twentieth century, both “Greeks” and “Bulgarian: denoted professions, the later often being applied to poor, Slavic-speaking, Orthodoc Christian peasants, shepherds, or laborers of lower social status to whom were ascribed a “peasant” culture.”
- ( Peter Mackridge, „Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766 – 1976“)

Trajan Stojanović in his book "Balkan Worlds: The First and Last Europe", p.143 again underlines that the term "Bulgarians" were called the farmers and with "Vlachs" the shepherds.

The Bulgarian member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences Vasil Drumev wrote: "*And we've began to learn Greek, to speak in Greek, to call ourselves Greeks. And there is still among us respected Bulgarians, who are grecoficating, who speak .. in Greek, who hate the Bulgarians.”*

K. Irachek in - "History of Bulgarians”, Sofia, 1929, 385-386, *says that the citizens for the simple, uneducated provincials (peasants) always used the name - "Bulgarians" by adding the obligatory – thick headed, *****, stumps and other abusive words.*

The Traveler Sir John Mandeville, in1357 travelling throught Balkans wrote that Serbia is land of Bougiers, while Blegrade in that time was known by the name “Alba Graeca” and “Alba Bulgarica”. 

Simeon Lehaci in his journey memories wrote that all the people in Bosnia speaks in "Bulgarian", and they were "Greeks" in religion.


“*All peasants were Macedonians; shepherds were Vlachs; merchants and bureaucrats were Greeks; and the high administrators were Muslims.”*- (“Minorities and mother country imagery” By Gerald L. Gold, Memorial University of Newfoundland. Institute of Social and Economic Research, p. 60.)

Prof. Stilpon Kyriakidis in the “Northern ethnological frontiers of Hellenism ", on p.39:
"*While at the time of Simeon did not cease to differ Dragovites from Strumianites and generally Sclavinians from Bulgarians, since Samuel the name of Sclavinias completely disappeared, and all Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians by the Byzantines and the country that Samuel ruled, that is western and northern Macedonia is called Bulgaria. In this way, we ourselves gave the name Bulgarian to everyone that speaks Slavic* ".

The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality. 
When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox (Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818)

Another indisputable proof that the “Bulgarian” at that time meant Slav, and then "Bulgarians" thought of themselves as pure Slavs, the same people with the Serbs and the Macedonians and Illyrians (Croats, Slovenes and Montenegrins) presents "The History of Bulgarian people " by Fr. Spiridon of Gabrovo, which in its short history says:

"*Bolgarians came into rule in Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, White Sea and the Rome... Illyrians (Serbs and Croats, my note) are called Bolgarians... and from Bolgarians originated the Serbs, and when Alexander took the whole Ilyrian army to conquer of the world ... since then Bolgarians began to call themselves Macedonians and Slavs* "
- (Spyridon Yeroschimonach, History in short of Bolgarian Slav nation 1792, tran. B. Hristova, prof. Raikov B., BAK at NB “Ss.Cyril and Methodius ", and" GAL-ICO, Sofia, 1992)

Jordan Hadzhikonstantinov - Dzinot, tells that for him the term Bulgarians means Slavs, so in his "Legend of Thessaloniki," published in 1859 says *St. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of all Bulgarians (Slavs), and in Bulgarians includes the Moravians from Great Moravia and Pannonia* (Glasnik drustva srpske slovenosti, VIII, p. 146-147)

Krste Petkov Misirkov explains the concept “Bulgarian”: "The Greeks also did not differ the Slavic nations and all Slavs ... called with the despised name "Bulgarians"
... The Greeks used the name Bulgarian to incarnate in him their contempt for everything Slavic. .. With the name Bulgarians, we Macedonians were christen by the Greeks,as well. But this re-christening was not the only one... “ (Krste Petkov Misirkov "On Macedonian Matters" Preface, Sofia, Printing House of the Liberal Club, 1903).

For Mr. Gennady, Metropolitan of Veles in 19th century ( born in the village Podkozhene, Podgradec) the concept “Bulgarian” is the same with the term Slavs, and he wrote that the Czechs and Slovakians are Bulgarians: *“ of Bohemia and Moravia they are all Slavs, pure Bulgarians, our brothers”* (Source: Simeon Radev “ Early memories”, titled “Meeting of four Bulgarian bishops” new, revised and expanded edition, edited by Trajan Radev, publishing house “Strelec”, Sofia, 1994)

Macedonian teacher Nikola Pop-Philipov, says that "*Bulgarian" language is a general Balkan language* (newspaper "Macedonia" Constantinople, April 6, 1868), *referring to the Slavic language.*

Grigor Prlicev writes in his autobiography: *“... the Bulgarian alphabet only to three was known and was called Serbian..”* (Grigor Prlicev, Autobigraphy). For him and the Serbians were Bulgarians i.e. Slavs; at that time, only Serbs had reformed and codified Slavic alphabet, and because of it Prlicev says that the Bulgarian (Slavonic) alphabet was called Serbian.

The famous Macedonian textbook writer Dimitar Macedonian sees its people as ancient Macedonians, and in one of his article writes that the ancient Macedonians are not swallowed by the earth, but are pure Slavs: *"... Macedonians are not Vlachs or some other nation, but pure Bulgarians (thinking of Slavs) ... therefore you’ll learn that the Macedonians are not lost from the face of the earth, as some allow to say, because, as far as we know, they did not done anything so bad, what should open the earth to swallow them. "(*see Makedonia of 16/02/1871).

In its “Brief holy history for the schools in Macedonia (in Macedonian dialect) printed in “ The printing of Macedonia”, Constantinople in 1867, writes:
Q.[Question] Who are those Bulgarians(Slavs), who were baptized in the early first century after Christ’s birth? 
A.[Answer] They are Bulgarians who live in Macedonia
Q. From whom are they baptized?
A. The Apostle Paul, who first preached at Philippi and Thessaloniki

*It becomes obvious that under the umbrella of the term "Bulgarians" also enter the ancient Macedonians, who were first baptized by the Apostle Paul, whole 5 centuries before the ethnic name "Bulgarians" to appear on the Balkans at all and generally European geographic regions.*

Next reference is the book of Mark Mazower “Salonica City of Ghosts” p.249, who writes about the visit of Sir Henry Layards of Thessaloniki, and here’s what he means under these terms: 
To be a “Greek” meant to be a “Orthodox Christian” while under the term “Bulgarian” was held to be one of reproach and contempt. 

Not last confirmation, but sufficient for completion of this reference overview of the meaning of these terms, according to the book of Nace Dimov “Historical line of Macedonia and Macedonian Slavs” Chapter first p.13-15, from 1913:

*”Therefore, in Macedonia there was such a position that the same Macedonian nation was called Grecian, Serbian and Bulgarian, just because one recognizes the Greek patriarch and pray in Greek churches, and another goes into a Slavic church. In each the same towns and villages the priests that receive a salary of Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those receiving the salary from the Serbian Diocese called themselves Serb and Macedonian Slav population that goes into one or another school or church calling itself Grecian, Serb or Bulgarian*

*From all that I expressed I can say that the Macedonians have a hundred percent right to autonomy and not be subjected to fragmentation among Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians. Regardless of that the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian government, for extending their boundaries on Macedonian territory, without saving money and exterminating the Macedonians who do not want to call themselves Greek, Serb and Bulgarian and those who do not know how to speak Serbian and Greek.”*

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## DejaVu

*Vlachs = Roumans = Modern Greeks*

"It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the STATISTICS REST ON AN ARTIFICIAL BASIS. The truth is that a LARGE NUMBER of those described as Greeks are REALLY ROUMANS. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance-speaking race of the Pindus region. Today JANINA HAS QUITE FORGOTTEN ITS ROUMAN ORIGIN, and has become a center of Hellenism. Athens, the nearest civilized center, offered natural attractions to the quick-witted mercantile element in the towns. But, for good is expended by Greek committees in the endeavor to gain recruits for Greek nationality. Parents are actually paid to send their children to the Greek schools." - *Sir Arthur Evans, 1903.*

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## Elias2

Your biggest fault is that you are calling all your neighbours fake while "macedonians" (bulgarians) are the only true people in the balkans. This is why FYROM will change its name, because of people like you and your mentality. ;)

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## iapetoc

Dejavu you lost all your arquements 

*1 Ancient Makedonians were Greeks
2 Medieval Makedonians were Greeks
**
3 There is no slavo-Makedonian Minority in Greece* (7000 votes to 2 000 000 Greek Makedonian)

4 *Your alphabet and your language is cyrillic and Bulgarian Dialect*

5* all countries among them Greece accept your indepedence but not your claims*

6 *we were we are and will be here to say who the True Makedonian is*

*7 by claiming name and land you win only enemies in area, its pitty, cause even Bulgarians dont want you any more*


*you even make enemies your own people the Bulgarians*

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkXbuY6Hag*
*
all you create is hate, and you posses land that belongs to Albania*

*keep that way, a lie can't help you make friends

watch that carefully
its your President of Democracy Gligorov admiting that you are slavs, SlavoMakedonians
* * 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUxYp6eDek*


Even﻿ *Gotse Deltchev*,the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader,whose nome de guerre was Ahil (Achilles) "refers to the Slavs of Macedonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).In his correspondence Gotse Deltchev often states simple and clearly,*"We are Bulgarians"* (Mac Dermott﻿ 1978:192,273). 

go ahead DejaVu make your pray
Svetitelot Tito
Hvala Tito za stoca ..... i imeto ........
﻿
Dejavu right now i am going to drink a suvo vino od tikves 
Grenaz Bel and shine my kalashnikov

if you want tell me to send a good Naousa or a Georgiadi or an Agioritiko (mount Athos) bottle of wine
best quality all
just ask me i will
besides as a trully balkan I make my own raki, want some of that?

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## DejaVu

*Greeks are christian Turks.*

*1. Macedonians were always Macedonians.*
*2. Medieval Macedonians were Macedonians.*
*3. There is no slavo-macedonian minority only ethnic Macedonians.*
*4. The language is Macedonian and made by Macedonians.*
*5. Macedonians dont care what other think they know what they are and that is Macedonians are Macedonians and Macedonia is Macedonia.*
*6. Greeks are christian Turks.*
*7. Greek language is mixed turkish language.*

*You lost all claims I posted the evidence you failed like the other fake Greeks.* 
*Be proud of what you are christian Turk.*


*It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.*
The League of the Nations _had not visited_ Aegean Macedonia and did not participate _at all_ in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.

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## Elias2

Considering the invading turks were muslims, and in islam it calls for the death penalty if you leave their "religion", I don't think your claims make sence ;)

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## iapetoc

Bulgars were Huns (Balkars)
they dissapear but they left the idea of an autonomus state 
war with byzantine never stoped that movement of indipedence

Thracian people of the north and west accept a small serbianism, and create a new accent to slavonization more,
but words like bol (bull) is ancient Tyrrrshenian 
ancient Greeks use the word tauros in south and Volinthros (Bολινθρος) in areas were Tyrrshenian were spoken
in koine became βους -vous bous and vous is the same with bo and bol
find out how may other words you have 
in a disgussion with a Thracologist in bulgaria we found 1300 words in Greek and 2200 in bulgarian language that are Tyrsshenian origin, even serbian and albanian have Tyrrshenian enough, also Daco-Romanian.
find them and don't listen to any stupid propaganda,
modern Bulgarians soon wiil claim that they are slavonized Thracians.
and the same for you the Makedonia dream is at its end
soon both countries they will reclaim Thracian ancestors.

find Hesychius of Alexandria Lexicon,
it has ancient Makedonian words, 
there you will learn the Language of Alexander.

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## DejaVu

*As a start let us look at the name of Macedonia.* 

Modern Greece constantly turns to ancient Greek mythology to justify their theory. According to one source, the land was named Macedonia after Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thia; a second version claims that the name was derived from Macedon, one of the ten sons of the god Aeolus; a third version says that Macedon was the son of someone called Likaon, and according to a fourth one, Macedon was the son of the Egyptian god Osiris. Which of these four versions can we trust? Ulrich Wilken, a German historian, states that the Greek adherence to old myths is an attempt to justify their present views, i.e. lacking proofs of the Greek thesis, they resort to mythology, legends and tradition.

Furthermore, since the Greek people do not really believe in the mythical origin of the name of Macedonia, a new explanation is being forced; namely that the root of the name, mak- is of Doric origin and means 'long' or 'tall' and its derivatives, Makednos or Makedanos, mean 'tall people'. These interpretation have been attributed to Herodotus, the Father of History, as Greek scholars call him. The aim here is to link the Macedonian with the Dorian people, the latter being claimed to be one of the Macedonian tribes. However, when it comes to proving the Doric origin of the Macedonians, or vice versa, Herodotus has no arguments to offer and therefore turns to traditions. This view is also supported by Prof D. Pantermalis, an archeologist, who wrote the following in the Greek newspaper Neos kosmos of 14th November 1988, published in Melbourne, Australia: "We have mentioned earlier a tradition which claims the Dorians to have been descended from the Makedons or Makednos. Herodotus must have come by this information either through evidence he himself had collected in some of the Doric towns or through the story of an ancient epic by Aegimius..."

Furthermore, Prof. D. Pantermalis also gave an interview published in Neos kosmos of 28th February 1991. Asked why foreign scholars were reserved over the question, the archeologist answered: "There are certain matters which require further clarification, and unfortunately certain interpretations in the past well as today have been wrongly based on such unclarified matters. Thus, for example, ancient texts often speak about the Macedonians and the Greeks, as two separate nations and we ought to differentiate between them. I would also add a more recent example: we speak of the Greeks and the Cypriots." Needless to say, this is only a superficial example, since, when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

The Greek historian, D. Kanatsulis, disagrees with the interpretations given by Prof. Pantermalis. In his History of Macedonia until Constantine the Great published in Salonica in 1964, on page 67 D. Kanatsulis writes that the Dorian and the Macedonian were two different peoples, although both appear on territory of Macedonia at almost the same time. On page 12 of this publication we read: "On the descent of the Illyrians and some other peoples in the 12th and 11th centuries BC, the Dorians were forced to move further south and majority of them settled on the Pelloponnesos whereas the Macedonians stayed in Western Macedonia."
D. Kanatsulis emphasizes that the Macedonians had a strong feeling of constituting a separate ethnic group not only during the time of the independent Macedonian state, but also during the Roman era. "The Macedonians," he says, were primarily citizens of the state and only after that members of the municipality where they were born or where they lived. Thus, in the official documents in which all names were entered, the personal name was followed by the nationality - Macedonian, and then came the birthplace or the place of residence, for example: a Macedonian from Aegea, a Macedonian from Edessa, etc." (page 82).

Similarly ancient Macedonian historians and writers, though writing in the common language (a blend of ancient Greek and the local Macedonian when signing their names always added that they were Macedonian language); as, for example: Chrisogonis from Edessa, a Macedonian; Adaios the Macedonian; Antipatris the Macedonian. (Prof Photis Petsas: A Journey in Northern Greece, Elinikos voras, February 1976). Not one of them wrote that he was a Hellene.
Now, back to the name of Macedonia. Looking at Ilios, a Greek encyclopedia periodical, on page 801 we find the chapter entitled 'The History of Macedonia'. Its third Paragraph begins with the words: "The Macedonians or Macedons inhabited this territory and called it Macedonia...," which confirms that before the arrival of the Macedonians the territory had had other names (Imatia, Aeordea, Almopia and perhaps others) and that the Macedonian newcomers named it Macedonia. Another archeologist, Prof Photis Petsas, gives even a more detailed account: "Macedonia was so named after the Macedonian People in the year 700 BC, who used to inhabit the territory to the west of the Vermion Mountains. What interests us today;" says Prof Petsas, "is that the Macedonians gave their own name to the land, calling it Macedonia, and expanded it in the south to Mount Olympus, in the west to the Pindus Mountain, in the east to the river Nestos (the Mesta) and to the Erigon in the north." (Prof Photis Petsas: Macedonia and the Macedonians..., Elinikos voras, 12th February 1978).

The ancient Greek man of letters, Isocrates, claims that there were no grounds for the identification of Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Greece, nor the Ancient Macedonians with the Ancient Greeks. In his book Filip (pp l07-108), Isocrates places Macedonia outside the boundaries of Greece and considers the Macedonians non-Greek tribesmen. Both ancient and contemporary geographers and historians, such as Eforos, Pseudoskilaks, Dionisios Kalifondas, Dikearhos, Athineos and others, state that the northern boundaries of Greece begin at the Amvrakis Bay in the west and go to the Peneos River in the east (Makedonia, an anthology, Athens, 1982, p.50). In this connection, the modern Greek scholar J. Kaleris writes: "In the middle of the 5th century BC, the name Macedonia was given to the land spreading from Lake Lychnida in the west, the Strymon River in the east and to the Erigon and Vardar Rivers in the north (The Language of the Macedonians, an anthology, Athens, 1992). According to historians and geographers mentioned above, the territories north of a line Amvrakis Bay to the River Peneos were inhabited by the Macedonian people (same Anthology, p. 122). The ancient geographer, Ptolemy, gives an even more precise description of the boundaries of Macedonia, saying that in the north they reached the Sar (Skardos) Mountains, in the north-east the Pirin (Orbilos) Mountains and in the south the Peneos River.
If these are the recognized boundaries of Macedonia, then how could that encompassed by the Mountains of Kajmakcalan, Kozuf, Belasica and Sar be denied the name Macedonia, even though, under the Treaty of Bucharest, a part of Macedonia was allotted to Greece? Referring to this problem, the Honorary President of the Communist Party of Greece, Harilaos Florianis, says in an interview: "Are we trying to say that 39% of the geographical territory of Macedonia is 'Skopje'? Isn't that, in fact, a section of the territory of Macedonia?" (Rizospastis, 2nd September, 1992).

Certain Greek scholars lacking a critical eye and disregarding historical arguments, consider the ancient Macedonians as Greeks and their language a Greek dialect. However, anyone looking at the facts with an open mind will realize that this is far from being true. Authentic evidence shows that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian people as barbarians and Macedonia a barbaric land. This is also what the two coryphaei of Greek history, Thucydides and Demosthenes thought of ancient Macedonians. As a matter of fact, the ancient Greeks considered all non-Greek people barbarian and their land barbaric. Thus in his third Philippic, Demosthenes states: "Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece, and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son, born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus. But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! How much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave ..." (Demosthene Crationes, IX, p.26, and Istorija diplomatije, vol.1, p.49).
Further evidence that the Macedonians were not Hellenes can be of the Manifesto of Polyperchon, regent to the Macedonian throne and envoy to the Greek city-states in the year 319 BC, where we read: "Our ancestors [meaning the Macedonians - author's note) were always kind to the Hellenes and intend to continue their good ways and give proof of our goodwill towards the Greek people." (Istorija diplomatije, p. 53, reference taken from Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheka historika, XVIII, p. 55).

The modern Greek scholar, Karagatsis, makes his contribution to the clarification of the question whether the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not. The master work of this respected author, History of the Greek People, 1952, raised a great commotion in the camp of the nationalistically oriented intellectuals of Greece. Karagatsis, however, disregarded the burden of tradition and mythology and claimed that reality was different (p. 314). "It is the King of the Macedonians," he says, "who is the hegemon of the Greeks. The Congress is summoned by the hegemon, but is never chaired by him, because the hegemon is not Greek." (p. 340).
Many circles in Greece turned against Karagatsis. Thus Stefanos Hrisos, a critic, states the following in his article in the Salonica newspaper Makedonia: "I believe that it is a moral obligation of every Greek, particularly those in Northern Greece, to raise his voice and demand that this book by Karagatsis should not leave the boundaries of Greece or be translated into other languages, and, if possible, be withdrawn from the shops. We might have expected such bad language from our neighbors but never from a Greek writer..."
Last year, during the heavy Greek-wide campaign against the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia, a collection entitled The Language of the Macedonians was published, which comprised contributions by distinguished university professors, the purpose of which was to boost the Greek thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greek people and spoke the Greek language. 

However, even in such a publication one finds concessions that the Macedonians in fact spoke a language different from the Greek.
Ana Panaiotou, for example, in the article 'The Language of Captions in Macedonia', says that "the Macedonians communicated among themselves in the Koine (common) language; the use of the Macedonian dialect was shrinking and became limited to conversations within a family or within small tribal circles. The last extant records on the Macedonian dialect," Panaiotou continues, "date from the first century BC" This author also informs us that the oldest facts on the Macedonian language date from the fifth century BC With the arrival of Alexander the Great that language stopped being the means of communication. "People used this language," Panaiotou says, "at moments of anger or great excitement and when only Macedonians were present" (p. 187). To support her statement, Ana Panaiotou turns to Plutarch, who claims that while killing Cleitus, at a moment of great distress, Alexander the Great "cried out in the Macedonian language" (Plutarch, Vii parallili, chapter 'Alexander the Great' - eighth installment in the periodical Ilios, 20th March 1954).
Ana Panaiotou also draws attention to the example of Eumenes, an officer in Alexander's army. He himself was not Macedonian, but once, after an illness, when walking among his Macedonian soldiers, he greeted them in the Macedonian language. She also mentions that Queen Cleopatra had lessons in Macedonian. In the same collected edition, Prof. J. Kaleris says that "the Macedonian language was often used with the purpose of winning the trust of the Macedonian people." In the periodical Mesiniaka, J. Kordatos, a historian and sociologist, undeniably declares that the ancient Macedonians spoke a language different from Greek.

Blinded by their fanaticism, the Greek nationalists categorically deny the Macedonians of today the right to bear that name; instead, they suggest names like Dardanians, Sclavins and the like. when the ancient Macedonian people arrived on the Balkan Peninsula, according to accepted sources, they retained their old name. This, however, was not the case with the modern Macedonians; when they settled in Macedonia in the 5th and 6th centuries AD, they still bore their tribal names - Sagudats, Rinhins, Smolyans, Brsyaks, etc. Gradually and spontaneously, these tribes took on the name of the region they had inhabited or, perhaps, of the people living there, who began to become assimilated with the newcomer Slavs, Pechenese, Kumans and others. Many Byzantine chronicle writers, such as Georgios Monahos, Leon the Dean, Ivan the Geometrician, Ana Comnena and Georgios Kedrinos mention the Macedo-nian Slavs. Even Emperor Constantine himself writes about the Macedonian people (Makedones); Leon the Dean refers to them as the ton Makedonon; Nikiforos Vrionos speaks of one Vasilios Kurtina as the anir Makedon; Ana Comnena says that someone called Tornik is a Makedon, etc. (Stjepan Antoljak, Samoilovata drzava, Skopje, 1969, pp 78-80).

Despite the frequent conquests first by Byzantium, then by the Bulgar and the Serb Kingdoms and finally by the Ottoman Empire, the name Macedonian persisted in use. Thus the European traveler Bertrand de la Brokier wrote in 1432 that the Macedonian people were the predominant population of Macedonia, differentiating them from the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs (Jordan Ivanov; Bqlgarite v Makedonia, Sofia 1917, pp. 109-110). Similarly, the Venetian marine officer, Angiolello, who traveled via Macedonia on his way to Constantinople, regarded the Macedonians as different from the Greek people. In his diary Angiolello wrote: "On 14th August, the Great Master dropped anchor off the coast of Mount Athos, a mountain on which there are many monasteries and Christian monks, some of them Greek, others Macedonian or Vlach." He, then, goes on to say: "Both Greek and Macedonian people live there..." (K Merdzhios, Mnimia makedonikis istorias). Furthermore, the Regulations and the Constitution of the Razlog and the Kresna Uprisings in 1876 and 1878, as well as the documents of the interim government of Macedonia of 1880, clearly define the nationality of the Macedonian people. Terms like Macedonian Uprising, Macedonian army, Macedonian people leave no doubt as to the national denomination of the Macedonian people.

Greece manifested territorial aspirations towards Macedonia soon after it became an independent state. Various societies, such as the Association for the Promotion of Greek Literacy and, later, the armed gangs operating in Macedonia and fighting the so-called Macedonian war, had a sole purpose of converting the Macedonian population into Greek and if reeducation did not produce the expected results, they resorted to using arms. In this connection, Joannis Kordatos has written the following: "Bulgaria and Greece, as well as Serbia, sent soldiers to Macedonia in order to change the national affinity of the local population..."
"A large percentage of the farmers in Macedonia," Kordatos continues, "spoke a Slavonic dialect, using a lot of Greek and Turkish words; however, the essence of the dialect was Slavonic. The Slavo-Macedonian dialect was the dominant language in many areas in Macedonia. In a survey which Blunt, the British consul in Salonica, conducted in 1888 and printed in the following year in the English Blue Book, we find that the Greeks constituted the majority in the coastal belt, in Ber, Lagadin, Ser and Zihnen. But the inland areas of Macedonia were inhabited by Slavophones..."
"The wide masses of Macedonia," says Kordatos, "were oppressed not only by the pashas, beys and agas, but also by the local rich people and the Greek high church officials. Therefore, the majority of the Slavophone Macedonians decided to rise against the Turkish tyranny and the injustice of the Metropolitans, and in an autonomous and independent Macedonia to build political and national equality..." (loannis Kordatos, Istoria tis neas Ellados, vol.5, Athens 1955, pp. 41A2).

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## DejaVu

In the period between the two Wars the only hope the Macedonian people in Greece had for the preservation of their national identity and for the realization of their basic national rights as a minority came from the Greek Communist Party. Between 1924 and 1935, the latter supported the idea of self-determination of the Macedonian people in Greece as well as for the independence and unity of Macedonia and Thrace, which later changed into a demand for "national equality for the minorities within the Greek state".

Speaking in favor of the demands of the Macedonian people in Greece, the leader of the parliamentary group of the Communist Party, Stelios Sklavenas, declared at the Parliamentary sitting of 25th April 1936: "Another problem which the Government keeps ignoring in its declarations is the question of giving the minorities in Greece rights equal to those of the native Greek population. This refers in the first place to the Macedonian people. Anyone who has traveled through Macedonia must have felt the specific pressure exerted on the Macedonians. They have been strictly forbidden to have their own schools, speak their own language or practice their own customs. As a result, the people are getting organized and ready to fight for their rights, in which we can't but support them. 

The winning countries in the Great War and the League of Nations sanctioned the right for the self-determination of oppressed nations. And we also grant this right to the Macedonian people...
General Metaxas established his dictatorship on 4th August 1936. One of the first things he did was to retaliate against deputy Stelios Sklavenas for his speech in Parliament in support of the Macedonian cause, by sending him to the dungeons of Manyadakis, chief of the Security police, where he was virtually subjected to inquisition.

As a conclusion to what has so far been said about the Greek denial of the admission of the Republic of Macedonia into the international institutions, the Greek claim to the exclusive right to the name of Macedonia and their non-recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece, we would like to draw the attention of the reader to the visionary ideas and words of the former leader of the Left Liberals in Greece, Ioannis Sofianopoulos. As early as 1927, when the Greek Parliament debated minority rights in the country; this man of virtue anticipated future events.

"By what means can we tame the spirits and eradicate the hatred?" he wonders and then adds: "There are three essential elements. a real protection of the minorities, which would forbid any forced emigration, education of the new generation in schools, and good traffic connections with all Balkan countries... Everybody should understand," Sofianopoulos concludes, "that we cannot endlessly change the family name suffixes -opoulos into -opovich, then into -opov, or in the reverse direction, and that the mind should be free and the will of the individual fully respected." (Ioannis Sofianopoulos, Pos ida tin Valkaniki, Athens 1927, p.204). Translated by Mirka Mishich

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## DejaVu



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## DejaVu

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti*
The *Berziti* (Bulgarian, Macedonian, Serbian: Берзити) were a South Slavic tribe that settled in Byzantine Macedonia in the 6th century AD with the Slavic invasion of the Balkans. Their name has been modernized as *Brsjaci* which also is the region of Macedonia encompassing Bitola, Ohrid, Prespa and Veles which is thought to have been their Sclaviniae.
One part of the tribe settled in Brest, Belarus. The Berziti settled in the vicinity of Lychnidos (Ohrid).
The tribe subsequently disappeared after Byzantine, Serbian and Bulgar conquest of the region. The tribe was absorbed by the Serb and Bulgarian ethnos.
In the 1935 book by Kirov-Majski, a self-proclaimed Brsjak, two sub-groups (ethnographic) of the Bulgarians are attested, the _Brsjaks_ and _Mijaks_, according to him in 1903, the revolutionaries that rebelled in the Krushevo Uprising calls themselves "Brsjaks". Self-proclaimed Brsjaks in Macedonia have since identified with the Macedonian people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
The *Mijaks* (Macedonian: Мијаци, _Mijaci_) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians who primarily live in the Mijačija area, comprising of the Reka and Mala Reka regions, along the Radika river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited.


*Macedonian Anthem*

*Today Over Macedonia* 
Today over Macedonia, is being born
the new sun of liberty.
The Macedonians fight,
for their own rights!
The Macedonians fight
for their own rights! 
Now once again the flag flies
(that) of the Krushevo Republic
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski! 
The Macedonian forests sing
new songs and news
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!

http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...minorities=153
Peoples in search of freedom - www.eurominority.eu 
*The website of Stateless Nations and minority peoples in Europe*
(national, cultural and linguistic minorities, native peoples, ethnic groups, areas with strong identity and autonomist, independantist or separatist tendencies)

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## Elias2

We know ancient Macedons were hellenic because we have quotes of them saying they were;

Alexander Quote:
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos… 
As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch, 332 a-b
What your doing is distorting history for your own ultra-nationalistic purposes. That won't save FYROM. The main enemy of FYROM isn't greece but itself, with an economy at 30% unemployment, GPD less than albania... the FYROM governmetnt is using nationalism as a cover for the more pressing matters. The enemy of FYROM are the FYROM people themselves ;) but you don't care beacuse you live in finland enjoying their economy while pretending to be a fighter, its rather enjoyable :)

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## iapetoc

oh god

you bring the communist party options?

find who Pieri were,
find who was myrmidos
find who the molloseans were
find when Dion was Build
find the Language before the Koine
find similaries among phrygian and makedonian
find the aeolians Makedonian and the lokroi
find why G is in south Makedonia around Olympus
find why ollympias married Phllipos and why
Hercules 2 son sons Makednos (phillip progonos)
Myrmidos (olympias ancestor)

Yes 700-800 BC is the first Makedonia KingDom
after years of wars with thracian tribes like Pieri Paeones Thyni
why thyni left for minor Asia at 700 BC who push them?
why Pieri move to strymon at 800 BC? who pushed them
why the area south of olymp never mentioned, Larissa
why the dorians claim from Hercules and came from south east of Olymp (Makedonia birth place) why Hercules story is lost at Dion the holy city,
why the Dorians never speak easily?
why aeolians understand better makedonians than the Spartans
*why Alexander did not burn Sparta*?????


*PaNtermalis* is right ( i have heard him a lot of times and discuss , he is top)
*when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.*

the area belong to 3 thrassian tribes Pieri and Bithyni and later Vrygi
we were invaders to that land before was thracian tribes land,
we build 1 city Dion later Pydna Balla (Pelion) and much Later Aiges (goats) Pella etc
we establish a king of the union the cities at about 700 BC karamos
capital Aiges with a council from each city king 
that was the system until Amyntas more cities unite or build or conquered

we never said that makedonians lived here before 2000 Bc
we estimated time of entry at 1300 Bc east of Olymp and slowly north to Aiges,
our first big state is 700BC about but cities exist at even 900 BC

*what is your point?
*
*yes we conquer area from Thracians 3 000 years before*


as you realize *its our nationality that named the land* not a US council or an emperror
makedonia is a Nation not an area, and dont belong to it cause you are a slav

as you say xenophon the athenean its Phillip the Makedonian

*petsas* is also wright

for us the Greeks Makedonian is Blood connection he came from Hercules,
not a land, not a treaty,
christianity and byzantium ****** us a lot, but that is another story,
we shrunk we shrunk, but we never give up our blood,
simply not today when we speak a part from our language (at least not turkish)

besides *STRABO* εστιν ουν ΕλλαΣ και η Μακεδονια

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## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza
*Eugene N. Borza* was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University. He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.




Published works 
1962 - _The Bacaudae: A Study of Rebellion in Late Roman Gaul_ (University of Chicago, Department of History)1974 - _The Impact of Alexander the Great_ (Dryden Press, ISBN 003090000X)1990 - _In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon_ (Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691008809)1995 - _Makedonika_ (Regina Books, ISBN 0941690652)Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html) 
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner. 

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are: 

*I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak?* From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

*II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves?* Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

*III. What did others say about the Macedonians?* Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

*IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology?* As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

*I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the* *south and east.* In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.

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## DejaVu

Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

*Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation*

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia. 


1) Diodorus
12) Plutarch
2) Justin
13) Livy
3) Arrian
14) Polybius
4) Curtius Rufus
15) Thracymachus
5) Thucydides
16) Herodotus
6) Isocrates
17) Demosthenes
7) Ephoros
18) Josephus
8) Ptolemy
19) Strabo
9) Pausanias
20) Dionysius Periegetes
10) Medius of Larisa
21) Pseudo-Scylax
11) Pseudo-Herodotus
22) Dionysius son of Kalliphon

The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them _barbarians_, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that _not one_ ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically _Macedonian_. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the _whole of Greece_ and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.

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## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

The “*Lamian War*”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians and their Aetolian, Locrian, and Phocian allies against the Macedonians in Thessaly during the winter of (323–322 BC). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia, located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.

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## DejaVu

*Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?*

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians. These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well. 
Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers. Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks. 

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians while the Macedonian Dynasty was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".

Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.

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## DejaVu

*Diodorus Siculus*
*Ancient Greek Historian*

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For *even Greeks* – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and *the Greeks* who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, *revolted against the Macedonians*. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were *massacred by the Macedonians* after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6. 

[3] *The Macedonians* and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them *while the Greeks favored Dioxippus*. 17.100.4. 

[4] Then *the Macedonian* (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, *but the Greek* (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the *Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance* and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly *disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian*. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his *compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks.* 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, *the Greek cities AND the Macedonians* also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the *revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians* 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6. 

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and *the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians*, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; *but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks.* Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they *shot them all down* with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9 

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert *their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks*. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and *rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism*. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced *that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks*." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of *the Greeks*, some were well disposed toward *the Macedonians*, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the *Illyrians and the Thracians* *joined the alliance* (with the Greeks) *because of their hatred of the Macedonians*. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him *by the Greeks*, he left Sippas *as general of Macedonia*, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, *the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians*, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As *the Macedonians* defended themselves stoutly, many of *the Greeks* who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, *the Greek commander*, having defeated *the Macedonians* in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of *the Greeks* were thus in thriving condition, but since *the Macedonians* had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of *victory swung in favour of the Macedonians*. More then *500* *of the Greeks* were killed in the battle, and *130* *of the Macedonians*. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a *Macedonian by RACE*, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a *foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians*. 19.13.1


[22] Peucestes (Macedonian commander) had 10000 Persian archers and slingers, 3000 men of every origin equipped for service in the *Macedonian array*, 600 *Greek and Thracian* cavalry and more then 400 Persian horsemen. 19.14.5. 


[23] Although the risk involved in all these circumstances was clear, nonetheless she decided to remain there, hoping that many *Greeks AND Macedonians* would come to her aid by sea. 19.35.6.


[24] Then, after making a truce with the other Boeotians and leaving Eupolemus as general *for Greece*, *he went into Macedonia*, for he was apprehensive of the enemy’s crossings. 19.77.5-6 

[25] In this year Antigonus ordered his general Ptolemaeus *into* *Greece to set the Greeks free*… 19.77.2


[26] Ptolemaeus, the general of Antigonus, had been placed in charge of affairs *thoughout Greece*; 19.87.3 (not in Macedonia).

[27] This was the situation in Asia and in *Greece AND Macedonia*. 19.105.4

[28] And *first* he planned to establish order in the affairs *of Greece* … *and then go on against Macedonia* itself if Cassander did not march against him. 20.102.1

[29] While these held office, *Cassander, king of the Macedonians*, on seeing that the power of *the Greeks* was increasing and that the whole war was directed *against Macedonia*, became much alarmed about the future. 20.106.1-2

[30] Demetrius was followed by 1500 horsemen, not less then *8000 Macedonian foot-soldiers*, mercenaries to the number of 15000, *2500 from the cities throughout Greece*. 20.110.4

[31] The utmost spirit or rivalry was not lacking on either side, for *the Macedonians* were bent on saving their ships, while the Siceliotes wished not only to be regarded as victors over the Carthaginians and the barbarians of Italy, but also to show themselves in the Greek arena as more then a match for the *Macedonians, whose spears had subjected both Asia and Europe*. 21.2.2

[32] Brennus, the king of the Gauls … *invaded Macedonia* and engaged in battle. Having in this conflict lost many man .. as lacking sufficient strength … when *later he advanced into Greece* and to the oracle of Delphi which he wished to plunder. 22.9.1-2

[33] A native of Terentum, Heracleides was a man of surprising wickedness, who had transformed Philip from a victorious king into a harsh and godless tyrant, and had thereby incurred the deep hatred of all *Macedonians AND Greeks*. 28.9.2

[34] Flamininus held that Philip (the Macedonian king) must *completely evacuate Greece*, which should thereafter be *ungarrisoned and autonomous*. 28.11.1 

[35] To this Flamininus replied that there was no need of arbitration whom he ha wronged; furthermore he himself was under orders from the Senate *to liberate Greece* (from Macedonia). 28.11.3-4

[36] When the news of settlement reached him, Flamininus summoned the *leading men of all Greece*, and convoking an assembly repeated to them Rome’s good services *to the Greeks*. 28.13.2 (Macedonians excluded from the leading men of Greece)

[37] In defense of the settlement made with Nabis he (Flamininus) pointed out that the Romans had done what was in their power, and that in accordance with the declared policy of the Roman people *all the inhabitants of Greece were now free (of Macedonia), ungarrisoned, and most important of all, governed by their own laws*. 28.13.3

[38] Philip threatens the Greek Thessalians: "They were not aware, he said, that the *Macedonian sun* had not yet altogether set." 29.16.1-2

[39] He said, namely, that after seeing the sun rise as he was about to begin transporting his army *from Italy to Greece*… five day *later he arrived in Macedonia*. 31-11.2-4

[40] Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaus, *a Macedonian by birth*… 32.15.9

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## iapetoc

you write a ton of .... what ?
i told we conquer land from Thracians and later allied wit paeonians (today skopje) 

why you write all these
just to make an apearrance
they are all known
But you never read the replies
simpy you COPY PASTE

you probably never been to Dion as a true Makedonian is obliged to do

*Keep copy paste Bullshit

YOU DIDN'T EVEN SAID ME IF WYOU WANT A BOTTLE OF WINE AS GIFT
CAUSE YOU NEVER READ, SIMPLY YOU 
COPY PASTE from Fyromian National front site 

we are here i m drinking Fyromian wine and shine my AK47 
i said do you want me to send you a bottle? you even not reply
that means in case of war you will stay in sweden in your safety,


get in your mind
the greeks live in regions

1 makedonia
2 thessaly
3 peloponese
4 crete
5 islands
6 epirus
7 thrace
8 Greece

the area from Phthia to Fokis (ftiotida boiotia eurutania fokida) is named Greece

that greece you mention is 'sterea Greece' 'ctara grcka'

un**derstand it that greece is a geografiacal region even today
its name is sterea Ellas or Sterea Greece or Ctara Grcka**
it is not a different country,
its a province understand it**

dont be an idiot
that is the name of a province even today named Greece
search were there any spartan at these battles? any cretan?
it was the Atheneans and thebeans and sterea Greeks who had collonies in Makedonia
Greeks comes from Homer Graikoi and was the people of Greece province
not the Hellenes
my nation is not Greek, english call me that
my nation is Hellenes
we are Hellenes, sons of Hellen and we make games at Hellanas River in Greece,
later Olympia was Build in Peloponese,
you write with out knowing what you write

that Greece is a region 

Stop PERVERTing history, Greece region has nothing to do with Hellenick Nation
stop mixing Geography with Nationality*

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## DejaVu

*Its more relevant then your claim of Hercules. What more fantasies suits your dream?*

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## Garrick

DejaVu
You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia _ and _ Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5%_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0%____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia. 

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


DejaVu
I'm going to Macedonia (FYROM), I have friends in Macedonia, I have visited most of Western Macedonia, and I'll tell you that I never had any problems what more when in a object, shop or anywhere they hear that I speak Serbian, all are very friendly and happy to be, simply they do not want to hide feeling and no policy that can prevent.

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## DejaVu

*Mixed inhabitants from many settlers including Macedonians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and many more. Lost their identity and got a new from their rulers and that have nothing to do with Serbia.* 

*Do you know any people that match from those countries in familytreedna?*

*Why dont you compare the other neighbours, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks with Serbians and Macedonians?*

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## DejaVu

*Victor A Friedman*

*"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"*

Victor Friedman received his B.A. in Russian Language and Literature from Reed College in 1970 and his Ph. D. in both Slavic Languages and Literatures and in General Linguistics from the University of Chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the Division of the Humanities at Chicago, and his dissertation, “The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative” won the Mark Perry Galler prize for the best dissertation in the Humanities Division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the Department of Slavic Languages at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where he chaired the Department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the University of Chicago, where he is Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities with a joint appointment in Linguistics and Slavic Languages and Literatures and an associate appointment in Anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and _The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative_ (Slavica, 1977) was the first book on Modern Macedonian published in the United States.

Friedman has done fieldwork in the Balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from Fulbright-Hays, IREX, ACLS, NEH, APS, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 Years of Bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of Bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the University of Skopje Gold Plaque for contributions to the field of Macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 1995 he was elected to Matica Srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the Academy of Arts and Sciences of Kosova. During the Yugoslav Wars of Succession, he worked as a Senior Policy and Political Analyst for the Analysis and Assessment Unit of the United Nations Protection Forces stationed in former Yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the South Balkan Project of the Center for Preventive Action of the Council on Foreign Relations (1995-1997), consulted for the International Crisis Group (1997), and did some work with the United States Institute for Peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at Cornell (Balkan linguistics, LSA summer institute 1997), University of Skopje (Balkan Identity, 1999), Central European University-Budapest (Romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), Kyoto University (Balkan linguistics, 1999), National University of Malaysia (Southeast Europe/Southeast Asia: Comparative Perspectives, 2000), University of Helsinki (Balkan linguistics, 2000), University of Prishtina (Balkan and Caucasian linguistics, 2002), and LaTrobe University (Research Center for Linguistic Typology, Balkan linguistics, 2004).

Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the Balkans and the Caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, Aromanian (Vlah), Azeri, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (especially the Torlak dialects), Bulgarian, Georgian, Greek, Judezmo, Lak, Macedonian, Megleno-Romanian, Romani, Romanian, Russian, Tadjik, Turkish.

*"We know what Ancient Greek, Latin, and Old Church Slavonic, and Sanskrit look liked, and we have Turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For Albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early Ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the Ottoman period that the Balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."*

*"The Bulgarians didn’t have a state until the Russo-Turkish War of 1878."*

*"Arvanatika - Most precisely, it refers to the Albanian dialects of Greece that separated from the main body of Tosk Albanian 600-1000 years ago. The dialects were spoken on many Greek islands, the Peloponnese, and in Attica and Central Greece. Greeks don’st like to admit it, but they have had large Albanian-speaking populations for a very long time, not just post-Communist economic migrants. While these dialects are now moribund owing to hegemonistic Greek language policies, they can still be encountered in places like Livadhia."*

*"But already in the 19th century, Macedonian speakers were calling themselves Macedonians (Makedontsi), their language, Makedonski. This is documented.*
*Some Macedonian speakers identified as Bulgarians,Serbs, Greeks or Turks, depending on religious loyalties, but most of the time, speakers called themselves Christians or Turks (Muslims)."*

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## DejaVu

*Who was Georgija Kastriot (Gjergj Kastrioti, Georgius Castriotus, Georgios Kastriotis)?*

The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski.

There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912. 

One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika. 

Son sonila Voislava kralica
son sonila od son se isplasila
Mi rodila bela luta zmija
So kriljata Epir pokrivala
So glavata carigrad dopirala
Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
sho je ova chudo nevideno
Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
Se radveshe Ivanova roda
Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
Georgija - ime hristijansko
Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

==========

Ushche zora ne zorila
Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
Mi razbudi sina Georgija
Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

Zdravo zivo tije si storile
I na divan skrisno besedeje
Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
Da si vratit zemji porobeni
Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
S crno kafe i s luta rakija
Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
Lichna moma kako samovila.... 


Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with *"King of Epirus and Macedonia"* 

T. Spanducci, a writer from the 17th century in his book "Historia" wrote:

*"Georgija Kastriot was respected not only by his tribe, the Mijak tribe but all other nations, even the Turks. His mother was Vojislava, a Macedonian woman, daughter of a nobleman from Polog, which of course is a part of Macedonia..."*
And then he concludes:
*"The Mijak tribe and all the other Slovenes have many reasons for the glorification and the singed songs about their hero Georgija Kastriot, because he fought for the protection of the slav culture, for the christian cross and for the freedom, but also because he had the most noble name from his kind - Georgija"*

Even today in Mount Athos in the Monastery Hilandar(Χιλανδαρίου) you can see the writing of the monk Nikanor that says:
*Сеи хрисовуль есть господара Ивнна Кацтпиота македонскаго, и копίе его вь немъ есть. И пише како даеть монастирю нашему две села во и суща съ церковьίю Пресветы, Богородицы тамо сущίа, и описуеть вс по синорами, и прочат.*

P.S. Vita et res praeclare gestae Christi Athletae Georgii Castrioti Epirotarum principis, qui propter heroicam virtutem suam a Turcis Scander beg, id est Alexander Magnus cognominatus est libris XIII a Marino Barletio, Scodrensi sacerdote conscripta, denum cum licentia superiourum reimpressa, Zagrabiaeanno 1743.

*When the Ottomans found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas, a church in Lezhë*, they opened it and made amulets of his bones, believing that these would confer bravery on the wearer.
His grave is in a orthodox church yard. 

Coat of arms of the Kastrioti family

----------


## DejaVu

*Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources.* 
The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the *Mijak tribal group Kastrates*. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426. 

In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language 
the following is written. 

"According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and 
unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, I*van Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij*. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte. 

The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot, 
written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal 
monuments./fifth book, pg. 467). 

From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political, 
military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in 
Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says: 

"My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav, 
Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons." 

As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family. 
A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the 
personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava, 
Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element. 

A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like 
in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII). 

Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and 
Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery. 

Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the 
genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources). 

The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus 
Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius). 

Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact. 

It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping 
the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence. 

The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot, 
the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on). 

Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192). 

So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially 
imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt. 

In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space. 

First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin. 

Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija, 
his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija. 

And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this. 

Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center. 

Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other. 

All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2 

The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant 
event for the history of the Macedonian people. 

Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447). 

Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91). 

In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot 
obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.

----------


## iapetoc

*Victor A Friedman*

*"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

wow , then from skopje the serbians went north
the croats west
the bosnians north west, as slovenians

wow the scordisci people invate from skopje to Slovakia
the srbians did not from the north, 
even chechs started from skopje to expand slavian 
polands yes they started from Skopje and went north north to balic spreadind the slavian languge

hahaha
**Victor A Friedman*

*"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

from south to north hahaha

besides as you said it

**Victor A Friedman*

*"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"*

*you speak slavic you admited it
your lie is obvious*

bye bye thieve

----------


## Garrick

> *Mixed inhabitants from many settlers including Macedonians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and many more. Lost their identity and got a new from their rulers and that have nothing to do with Serbia.* 
> 
> *Do you know any people that match from those countries like familydna?*
> 
> *Why dont you compare the other neighbours, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks with Serbians and Macedonians?*


All others are referring to are different, the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are most similar to each other.

I will give you pictures of some analysis and you can watch.

And analysis showed that even Montenegrins are more different.

And now look at the census in Yugoslavia, 1924.




Only Serbs no Macedonians and the census was entirely legal, accordance with European criteria at the time.

Macedonians appear after World War II when the Communists came to power, and it can be easilly checked in the history.

----------


## iapetoc

> *victor a friedman*
> 
> *"macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"*
> 
> victor friedman received his b.a. In russian language and literature from reed college in 1970 and his ph. D. In both slavic languages and literatures and in general linguistics from the university of chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the division of the humanities at chicago, and his dissertation, “the grammatical categories of the macedonian indicative” won the mark perry galler prize for the best dissertation in the humanities division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the department of slavic languages at the university of north carolina, chapel hill, where he chaired the department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the university of chicago, where he is andrew w. Mellon professor in the humanities with a joint appointment in linguistics and slavic languages and literatures and an associate appointment in anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and _the grammatical categories of the macedonian indicative_ (slavica, 1977) was the first book on modern macedonian published in the united states.
> 
> Friedman has done fieldwork in the balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from fulbright-hays, irex, acls, neh, aps, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 years of bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the university of skopje gold plaque for contributions to the field of macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the macedonian academy of arts and sciences. In 1995 he was elected to matica srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the academy of arts and sciences of kosova. During the yugoslav wars of succession, he worked as a senior policy and political analyst for the analysis and assessment unit of the united nations protection forces stationed in former yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the south balkan project of the center for preventive action of the council on foreign relations (1995-1997), consulted for the international crisis group (1997), and did some work with the united states institute for peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at cornell (balkan linguistics, lsa summer institute 1997), university of skopje (balkan identity, 1999), central european university-budapest (romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), kyoto university (balkan linguistics, 1999), national university of malaysia (southeast europe/southeast asia: Comparative perspectives, 2000), university of helsinki (balkan linguistics, 2000), university of prishtina (balkan and caucasian linguistics, 2002), and latrobe university (research center for linguistic typology, balkan linguistics, 2004).
> 
> Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the balkans and the caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, aromanian (vlah), azeri, bosnian/croatian/serbian (especially the torlak dialects), bulgarian, georgian, greek, judezmo, lak, macedonian, megleno-romanian, romani, romanian, russian, tadjik, turkish.
> ...



wowowoww 

*slavic

wowowow 8t cantury???

wowowow 

Friedman is Good 

slavic 8th century Bulgaria wowowowow

now who is lier?

Garrick finally he make the mistake
He admit that he is a slavic-Makedonian

FINALLY

probably he is an ex-communist that lives in sweden with lots of money and wants a war in which he will be in sweden and others will die
*

----------


## DejaVu

*100% wrong and slavic dont exist as a language, but many languages exist as slavic languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian
*The language went from Macedonias capitol Thessalonica and was used to spread the christian religion. There are also words from Koine.*

*Are you going to claim origin of Hercules again? What more fantasies suits your dream?*
*You have been spamming all the time. Are you a satanist? Go visit a doctor you are not 100% fresh in your brain.*

----------


## iapetoc

wrong again slavic-makedonian

*Old Macedonian* may refer to:

An alternative name for the* Old Church Slavonic language[1][2][3]*The Macedonian recension of Old Church Slavonic (*10th–14th century*)[4]
no Thessalonica 10th century here slavic-makedonski

sfati? razbiraz? razoumes?


hahaha thief we got you

slavic Makedonian hahaha

*znam ova e vistina*

Hvala Tito

all are fake except Fyrom

hahaha

----------


## DejaVu

*WRONG AGAIN CHRISTIAN TURK. OPEN YOUR EYES DONT SLEEP.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
*Old Church Slavonic* or *Old Church Slavic* also known as *Old Macedonian*. 
The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic.

----------


## iapetoc

*Old Church Slavonic* or *Old Church Slavic* (abbreviated as *OCS*), also known as *Old Bulgarian*[1][2][3] or *Old Macedonian,*[4][5][6] was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine [7] missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius[8], who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings. It played a great role in the history of Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, where Church Slavonic is used as a liturgical language to this day by some Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches of the Slavic peoples.

*Slavic* 9th century AD, not 7 century BC
*Slavic-Makedonian

so you are a Slavo-Makedonian

thank you I** will** not buy your Makedonia

its a shame
i respect serbs cause they say who they are and don't steal
I respect bulgarians for the same
I respect albanians
but you?
you came at 5-6 century and claim Alexander???? SHAME
*

----------


## DejaVu

*Macedonian parliamentary delegation delighted with the reception in Israel 
*
*Welcome to the descendants of Alexander the Macedonian* 

President welcomed the Israeli Knesset speaker Veljanoski say that he is the first Macedonians are signs in the book of impressions, but it is the first Macedonians to visit Israel, because it was Alexander of Macedon 

Israel acknowledges the roots of ancient Macedonia. President of the Israeli Knesset Reuven Rivlin has given such recognition Speaker Veljanoski, who last week led a parliamentary delegation to the three-day visit to Israel. 
The first man of the Israeli Parliament Rivlin, who is a very respected politician in the Jewish state at the moment while Speaker Veljanoski signed the book of impressions, spared no praise for him and for Macedonia. "*Mr. President, you are the first Macedonian to sign the book of impressions, but you are not the first Macedonian who came to Israel. It was Alexander of Macedon*," said Rivlin. This comment Rivlin pleasantly surprised and delighted Veljanoski speaker, and members of the Macedonian delegation. 
Speaker Rivlin, who comes from one of the oldest Jewish families, was very friendly to guests from Macedonia. While the delegation attended a session of the Knesset, he spared no praise for the guests and all the time called Macedonia by its constitutional name, even though Israel has recognized us under the reference FYROM. 
The warm reception in Israel testify and members of the Macedonian delegation, who could not find words to describe the Israeli hospitality. "We are simply thrilled," said MP and member of the Macedonian delegation. 
As is known, during the three-day stay last week, the Macedonian delegation was received by top officials of the highest state of Israel President Shimon Peres, Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman. 
At all meetings, which were accompanied with full state honors, the Israelis stressed the close historical relations with Macedonia. High delegation to Israel is expected to come here on the release of the Holocaust Memorial Center in Skopje, which is planned for March 2011. 

N. Selmani

----------


## iapetoc

*Old Church Slavonic* or *Old Church Slavic* (abbreviated as *OCS*), also known as *Old Bulgarian*[1][2][3] or *Old Macedonian*,[4][5][6] was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine [7] missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius[8], who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings. It played a great role in the history of Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, where Church Slavonic is used as a liturgical language to this day by some Orthodox and Greek-Catholic Churches of the Slavic peoples.
*
Slavic-Makedonian*

----------


## DejaVu

*Koiné language, why is it called Koine? Is the peoples identity Koine that speak Koine?*

----------


## iapetoc

yes offcourse fake-Makedonian

*Sorros from Fyrom* who bombed Serbia with madline aulbright, and broke Greek Economy at stock exchange

----------


## DejaVu

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201726a.html

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander's invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution.

The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.


*Kalash people claiming Macedonian ancestry and not Greek.*
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBOuS...eature=related

*Hunza people claiming Macedonian ancestry and not Greek.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunza_people

*Hunza, self-proclaimed descendants of Alexander the Great, visit the Republic of Macedonia.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1BsU...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGt___N0znw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFPn...eature=related




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski_language 
*Their language Burushaski have nothing to do with Greek.*

Ilija Chashule "Basic Burushaski Etymologies"(Muenchen Newcastle , ISBN 3 89586 0891) with the similarities between the modern Macedonian and Burushaski language:



BU:
ASHMILAS, ASHMILJ = to pacify, placade, persuade, also MILI as a title for the beloved in folk song.
PRO-SLAV:
mil`= dear,
LYTV: mylas and meilus = dear.
MK:
MIL =dear, Smiluva, Smili = to pacify.

BU:
ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.
MK:
SPALE,ZAPALE = to burn, to set in flames.

BU:
ASH = neck, nape of neck, external trhoat.The locativ of the ASH is ASHI
PSlav, MK:
Shija = neck.It is also related to the word SHITI = to sew

The BURushaski word in its special locative form both semantically and phonetically parallels Slavic.


BU:
BALKAS( IN LOCATIV: BILKIS) = treasure
SOUTH SLAV: BLAGO = treasure
MK NAME: BLAGA = treasure.

BU:
BERKAT = Berg, Mountain.
MK: BREG= Berg, Mountain.
PROSLAV:
BERG´ = berg, Mountain

BU:
BIRI= boiling
MK: VRIE = boiling...as so many times mentioned, B and V are changed many times, Servia=Serbia.

BU:
BÚR = a single hair.
ANC MK :
ABROUWES = eye brows
PRO SLAV, Old SLAV:
BRY, (GENETIV: BR'EVE) = eye brow.

BU:
D*- ASPASAS, D*-SPASASH = to protect, save, rescue.
MK:
SPASE = save,
DA SPASESH = to save someone.

BU:
DELAS, DELIAS, DELJ = 1)to beat, strike, smite, hit, shoot,...2) to kill to slay
SANSKRIT:
DALATI = crack, splits
PRO SLAV:
DELATI = to work.
MK:
DELIA = Mythical Hero who kills the Turks.

GARU( ALSO: GARÚKI) = spring

ALSO: GARÚM = hot GARÚRUM = hot, warm, AS NOUN: GARÚRUMKUSH = heat.

GARI = lamp, light , pupil of eye.

ANC MK:
GORPIAIOS = a hot Macedonian Month
MK:
GREE = warm, to warm
GARE= warming meal, cook soup.

BU:
GIRATAS; GIRASH = to dance, play
OLD SLAV, MK:
IGRA = dance, play
MK:
IGRASH = you play, nominative form from IGRA.

----------


## DejaVu

*Time for some old information.*

*iGENEA* http://www.igenea.com/

Genealogy . What is this?
A DNA genealogical test shows you the haplogroup (going back 60,000 years ago), the ancient tribe your ancestors belonged to and where your ancestors came from 40 generations ago, which takes you back to the 11th / 13th centuries. You receive information about the maternal and paternal lines. DNA genealogy also allows you to locate "genetic cousins," i.e. persons who share a common ancestor with you. When you exchange information, like family trees, with your "genetic cousins",you expand your knowledge of your own family history.

DNA genealogy – how does it work?
Information is encoded into your genes (DNA) that today give indications of your history and your ancestors. By analysing certain parts of your DNA and comparing the results with those of other persons, it is possible to find out whether you and those persons have shared ancestry.

*A antic macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological funds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece and minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.*

I would like to know the specific distinction of how the antic Macedonian gene, is different from the Hellenic gene?

Yes, but the difference is not so big. The Hellenic profile demands specific allelvalues from the Y-DYS in Locus 2-8 and the macedonian profil from locus 2-10. The genetic profile is nearly identical, but the antic macedonian demands two more mutations. 



*Genetic Differences Between Macedonians in Greece and the Greeks.*
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/29.../1155.abstract
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Co...Hromosomes.pdf

In the genetic analysis published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for 
the Advancement of Science, participated Macedonians from the Macedonian minority of 
Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia) and Greeks, among with other European nations.


*HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
http://www.makedonika.org/processpai...id=ti.2001.pdf

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, 
Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, 
Madrid, Spain. [email protected]

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia 
by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended 
haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other 
Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, 
neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. 
The following conclusions have been reached: 

*1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,* 
*like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese,* 
*Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,* 
*2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks,* 
*who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum* 
*3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people,*
*which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.* 
*Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.*

----------


## DejaVu

*And here are some Fake Greeks.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
*Greeks (of Arvanite origin)*
Andreas Miaoulis 
Markos Botsaris 
Laskarina Bouboulina 
Nikolaos Krieziotis 
Xadziyiannis Mexis 
Pavlos Kountouriotis 
Kitsos Tzavelas 
*Georgios Kountouriotis* 
Antonios Kriezis 
Dimitrios Voulgaris 
Athanasios Miaoulis 
Diomidis Kiriakos 
Theodoros Pangalos 
Petros Voulgaris 
Alexandros Diomidis 
Theodoros Pangalos 
Nikos Engonopoulos 
Ieronymos II

----------


## DejaVu

*Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The Ancient Greeks by J.S. Gandeto*

An impressive book on the differences between the two ancient nations - Macedonians and Greeks. "To understand the history of the ancient Macedonians, their ethnogenesis and their innermost drives as people, we need to analyze and comprehend, first and foremost, their deeply rooted material culture. Only by sifting meticulously through the thick layered strata of their rich culture can we discover and appreciate who this ancient people were. The rare glimpses into their intricate and deeply carved traditions afford us a window of luxury through which the plumage of their race emerges and becomes recognizable. Coupled with numerous anecdotes recorded and preserved through time and epitaphs that are impervious to politics and change, we now have a sizeable body of truth to know and believe that ancient Macedonians were, what they said they were—Macedonians" (from the publisher). "It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks" (synopsis). 
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/gandeto.html

----------


## iapetoc

oh god E-V13 somalian etiopean
J2 is from from levant
both that makes Greeks and albanians

stop bullshit and and listen i wrote a book about that
and I know even King Alexander the 4rth Y-dna
plz stop
if you want i can explain all in a letter
stop political propaganda
each you claim 1-1 
but stop spam
send me 1 letter to expalin all about it
1-1 at the time
all have explanations
if you open your mind
and stop your spamming and propaganda

you write bullshit you understand? each has his explanation
read about berbers and Albanians it is the same

Istill dont understand what you are trying to prove?

----------


## DejaVu

*The Flag Dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia* 
*Introduction*Official Greece accuses its northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia for "stealing the Ancient Greek heritage", which according to the Greek side also includes Ancient Macedonia and its symbols, one of them being the so called _Sun of Vergina_. The symbol was once used as an emblem on the flag of the Republic of Macedonia, which caused a dispute between the two countries (actually it was an unilateral protest from the Greek side).


Greece is so fast in accusing other nations for "stealing history" that she forgets that she is the one that actually stole a symbol of another nation- an old English flag:
http://spartaks.blogspot.com/2008/04...public-of.html

----------


## DejaVu

*HERODOTUS 

*CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. As Borza had written, "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.

----------


## DejaVu

*The Macedonian Lion, like the Macedonian Sun is yet another oldest European symbol that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians.* Lions used to dwell around Macedonia and the ancient historians have recorded this. The lion hunt was popular among the Macedonians and lion hunt scenes have found their place in the Macedonian art.

On August 2, 338 BC, the Macedonians defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in central Greece and conquered their country. On the battlefiled they erected an impressive sculpture of a proud-standing lion. The same lion sculpture is also found in the Macedonian city of Amphipolis.

*The Lion continued to be a Macedonian symbol even after the destruction of the Macedonian Empire and Kingdom in 168 BC.*

*The Macedonian Sun is undoubtedly the oldest symbol in the world that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians. This 8-rayed and 16-rayed Macedonian Sun had been cherished by the Macedonians for over 3,000 years.* 

*It appears on the coins, military equipment, and art of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, and continued to be National Insignia of the Macedonians throughout history to modern times. The Macedonian sun is found in the icons and frescoes in the churches throughout the whole territory of divided Macedonia, and speaks of volumes of tradition as the Macedonian nation had cherished it for centuries.*

----------


## DejaVu

*In the course of the Middle Ages and in later periods the name of Macedonia can be found both in heraldry and itinerary literature. Macedonia is mentioned for the first time in the 1595 Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, where the coat of arms of Macedonia is included among those of eleven other countries. As noted in detail by Aleksandar Matkovski, under the coat of arms is written "Macedonia", while above the arms in Cyrillic script is "Cimeri makedonske zemle" (the Coat of Arms of the Macedonian country). In the Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, Macedonian arms are presented along with those of Croatia, Dalmatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, the Duchagyni, and Kastrioti; in the 152 coats of arms depicted, the Macedonian coat of arms with the inscription "Macedonia" is included twice. The same rolls of arms includes the arms of King Dushan or of his son Urosh. This is a complex coat of arms, presenting these kings as symbols of the unity of the South Slavs and including the arms of nine Balkan regions: Macedonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the coastal countries, Slavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia. Note that Macedonia is presented as a separate region.*

In 1605, an extensive rolls of arms was published in Hungary. Siebmacher, its author, included the coat of arms-an single-headed eagle on a white background-of "Macedoniani", a Macedonian family from southern Hungary. Since the 15th century there had been a group of Macedonian immigrants in Baranya, inhabiting a village called Macedonia. The family Macedoniani originated from this village, where Dancho of Macedonia came from as well. Dancho is mentioned as early as 1439 as a rich noblemen; his descendants Ladislav of Macedonia, Bishop of Veliki Varazhdin in 1533, and Volk of Macedonia, ban (governor) of Szörèny, are also noted.
One of the oldest preserved rolls of arms is that of Palinich, most likely prepared in the late 16th and early 17th century. The arms of Macedonia are included, with the hand-written Latin inscription "Macedonia regni" below it. The term Macedonia is also found in Althan's 1614 rolls of arms. Above the beautifully drawn Macedonian coat of arms is the Cyrillic inscription "Makedonske zemle cimeri" and below that, in Latin, "Insignia regni Macedonia". Among the most beautifully drawn Macedonian coats of arms is the one kept in the Museum of Applied Arts in Belgrade. This coat of arms, with the inscription "Macedoniae" belongs to the heraldry of King Dushan, along with arms of Illyria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Sklavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia.

The Ohmuchevich family was known for its efforts to prove inheritance right over Bosnia and Macedonia. Over decades, the family tendered many claims to the territory, endeavoring to prove the rights of the Ohmuchevichs to large regions in the Balkans. They even printed coats of arms, wishing to prove their noble descent and their right to rule these large regions, Macedonia always taking the central place among them. Their enormous wealth made it possible for them to print heraldic collections and other books-which, regardless of the strength or validity of their claims to the territories-made the term "Macedonia" popular both in a geographical and an ethnic sense. The 1636 role of arms authored by Admiral Andriya Ohmuchevich and Marko Skoroevich argued that Macedonia and Bosnia could be liberated from Turkish rule only with the help of Vienna and the Hapsburgs. The Rolls of Arms of Marko Skoroevich was dedicated to Prince Ferdinand; though the young prince did not yet know to read, he could look at the "pictures" and by the help of the coats of arms grow familiar with the geographical terms and toponyms. The Macedonian coat of arms in this collection is included in a group of heraldries belonging to the South Slavic states, with the inscription "Insignia regni Macedonia" above it. On this coat of arms the lion is depicted standing rampant, yellow on a red background. 

The term Macedonia is also written below the Macedonian arms in the 1675 Foynitsa rolls of arms, as well as in Du Cange's 1680 History of Byzantium, published in Paris. Macedonian coat of arms containing the inscription "Macedonia" can also be found in the 1689 Olovo rolls of arms in Bologna. The Berlin rolls of arms from the late 1wth century also includes the term Macedonia written in Latin below the coat of arms. and "Cimeri makedonske zemle" above.

In short, there are many records dating from the 17th century in which the term Macedonia is mentioned. It is also included in the handwritten 1694 stemmatographia of Pavle Riter Vitezovich: "Macedonia" is printed in Latin above the coat of arms. In the printed 1701 stemmatographia of Pavle Vitezovich, the inscription "Macedonia" is placed above the Macedonian coat of arms, while below there are four verses in Latin which tell that, in former times, the golden shields were symbols of imperial dignity, now replaced by a Turkish turbanned fez.
Hristofor Zhefarovich, the most prominent Balkan artist of the 18th century, was Macedonian-born, most likely in Doyran. He was educated in Greek schools, but he acquired his artistic knowledge in Thessaloniki and Ohrid. His Stemmatographia includes two rolls, one containing 56 coats of arms from all the Slavs and a second set of 20 containing South Slavic coats of arms. The Macedonian coat of arms is presented in both compositions with the inscription "Makedonia".

The term "Macedonia" is also written below the Macedonian coat of arms in the 1746 rolls of arms of Ivo Saraka and in the third volume of Jovan Raich's rolls of arms, printed in 1794. Each coat of arms is labeled: the Macedonian as "Macedoniae", the Serbian as "Serbia", the Bulgarian as "Bulgaria" and the Bosnian as "Bosna". The terms Macedonia and Macedonians were also recorded by travelers passing over its roads while travelling from East to West and vice versa, or while wandering over its territory. *Historical misconceptions certainly had their effects on these travel accounts; the writers often named the Macedonians as Bulgarians, Serbs or Greeks.* 

*But in many itineraries the terms Macedonia and Macedonians remained clearly distinguished from those for other Balkan states and other Balkan peoples. Thus, when the Venetian captain Angiolello passed through Macedonia and on August 13, 1470 recorded his stay on the Holy Mountain, he wrote that "there are many Christian monks, some of whom are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs, and there are even Italians and people from other nations." Four days later, while camping by the mouth of the Mesta River, he noted that "there live Greeks and Macedonians."*

An unknown author describes the Ohrid countryside, writing "Albania is the region which had been called Macedonia by the ancient peoples, i.e. it is a part of Macedonia, as Macedonia covers many countries and regions."
In the 15th century, Bertrando de la Brokier traveled through the Balkans and left behind an account of his travels. Among other things, he writes "...and I remembered the heavy oppression of the Turk over the emperor in Constantinople and over all Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians, and even over the Despot of Rascia [Rashka, as he referred to Gjuragj Brankovich] and all his subjects, which is very unfortunate for the all of Christianity.... And there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esklavonians, Rascians and Serbians...".

In 1461, some time after Brokier's travels through the Balkans, the Venician commissioner to Rome, Paulus Maurocenus, made plans to drive the Turks out of the Balkans: "...When the enemy forces are crushed, no one will ever doubt that all of Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Athens, and Peloponnesus...".

----------


## DejaVu

*In his 1547 itinerary of southern Macedonia, Pierre Bellon discourses on the Holy Mountain, the mines in Siderokapsa and Kavalla, and frequently refers to the region as Macedonia.* 

In his writings of 1573, the French traveler Philip du Fresne-Canais notes: "I saw a large plain at the beginning of which Skopje is located, hidden by small hills, a very big town which, according to some, is in Bulgaria, but according to my opinion is in Macedonia...".
In 1566 Yakov of Macedonia, a printer and a writer, left for Venice. There he printed a number of liturgical texts and other writings in the printing house of the Montenegrin voivoda (commander) Bozhidar Vukovich. In the preface to one of the liturgies he writes : "...I took great effort in making this work and in making holy books, for a long time and for many years... I came out from Macedonia, my homeland, and entered the Western countries...".
The printing of geographical maps stimulated the wider use of the term Macedonia. Many centuries passed from the first maps of Ptolemy, in which Ancient Macedonia is presented, to Peutinger's table, a maritime map depicting the coastline along the Aegean coast drafted by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Pyrireis, to the map of the Macedonians in St. Petersburg. One of the more realistic geographical maps of Macedonia is Gastaldi's 1560 map published in Venice. It is there that certain Macedonian place names are adopted for the first time by the West: the Vardar River, Skopje, Mt. Skopska Crna Gora, Tikvesh Valley, Demir Kapiya, Bitola, Kratovo, Struga, Ohrid and Ohrid Lake, Prespa and Prespa Lake, Prilep, Kostur, Lerin, Voden and Resen.
The Mercator map (Duisburg, 1589) and Laurenberg map (Amsterdam, 1647) followed Gastaldi's lead in giving some inhabited sites both their ancient and their contemporary Macedonian names, such as Lychnidos/Ohrid and Edessa/Voden. In Rome, G. Cantelli da Vigniola published a 1689 map which shows-with slight deviations-the territory of Macedonia and its geographical borders. Though map contains many errors, it for the first time marks the towns of Tetovo, Kumanovo, Katlanovo, Veles, Debar, Kavalla, Ber and Enije Vardar.* Only seven years later, in Paris, N. Senson detailed Macedonia in a number of 1696 maps. These were followed by the maps of G. de L'Isle (Paris, 1707), Homann (1717), Harenberg (Nuernberg, 1741), S. Jenvier (Paris, 1750), A. Lapie (Paris, 1843), the Map of European Turkey (Belgrade, 1853), the commercial map of the province of Macedonia (Paris, 1885), and a "Map of Macedonia" by Dimitrija Chupovski (St. Petersburg, 1913) in which Macedonia is shown in its geographical and ethnic borders. On all these maps Macedonia is clearly labeled as Macedonia.*

http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displa...=59&fullsize=1
http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displa...=58&fullsize=1

----------


## DejaVu

*Greeks crying to Obama.*


*Letter to President Barack Obama*

The Honorable Barack Obama

President, United States of America

White House

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20500





Dear President Obama,

We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great. 

We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html)

The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia. 

Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc. 

We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks. 

Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles - the quintessential Greek hero - on their coins.

Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C. Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero? 

The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior. 

We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.



Sincerely,

----------


## DejaVu

*Minority Violation* 

Human Rights Watch Report on Greece.
http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/203/9/

U.S. Department of State's Human Rights Report on Greece.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78815.htm

MHRMI 2008 Annual Report on Greece.
http://mhrmi.org/news/2008/january27b_e.asp

*European Free Alliance* 
http://www.e-f-a.org/home.php

21.05.09 Bulgarian authorities confiscate electoral materials RAINBOW party (21/05/2009)
*Lack of democracy in Greece and Bulgaria.*

The Bulgarian authorities already for several days have confiscated DVD's made in Bulgaria. The DVD's for unclarified reasons cannot cross the border in order to be used by the Party Rainbow in it's campaign for the European elections. Rainbow represents the Macedonian minority in Greece. The DVD contain information on the peacefull political struggle of the Macedonian (ignored and denied) minority in Greece. The Bulgarian authorities already since 2005 refuse to implement a European court of human rights decision to register the party Omo Ilinden Pirin. This party represents the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. Both members states Bulgaria and Greece deny the existence of such minorities. The evidence of such existence fi the DVD's cannot see the light of day and therefore... are confiscated.

*"Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority", said MHRMI president Bill Nicholov.*

----------


## DejaVu

> All others are referring to are different, the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are most similar to each other.
> 
> I will give you pictures of some analysis and you can watch.
> 
> And analysis showed that even Montenegrins are more different.
> 
> And now look at the census in Yugoslavia, 1924.
> 
> 
> ...


*Who are the others that state that? The Fake Proto-Serbs?*
*The worst occupants of all that occupied Macedonia, thats what Macedonians say.*
"Macedonians was forced to learn Serbian in schools to be fake serbs. Serbs forgot who gave them the language, church and more."

*Maybe this idiot: Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA* 
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZHKvAJNZqg*


"The census was legal and thats why the king got shot?" 
*The Assassination of the Yugoslavian king Alexander*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrruCOZwxKA

Song about Vlado Chernosemski

True and extraordinary
but the extraordinary happens,
In a far away city of Marseilles
there are united autonomists
and brother Croatians.
Now a king departs
on a luxury ship,
from the town of Dubrovnik
and he sleeps peacefully
while he sails the wide ocean
and destiny waits in Marseilles.

There he is honoured
by Minister Barthou
and his mighty generals;
where they all gather
to hold a council of war
against poor Macedonia.

The people they gather
the crowds enormous
and they chant "long may he live"
but from the crowd
a lone voice is heard
"Death to the tyrant".

For there stands also
Vlado Chernozemski
all the way from Macedonia,
he starts to run
alongside the automobile
in his hand a pistol is seen.

King Alexander
starts to plead
and to Vlado he begs:
"please Vlado,
don't do this Vlado,
don't kill me".

to the King Vlado replies
proud and true,
understand this you tyrant,
I've been sent by
Vancho Mihailoff himself
to deliver our verdict.

Now stand up, stand up
you Serbian dog
I'm going to execute you.
the pistol fires
the King he expires
long live Macedonia!

Let it be known,
known and remembered
throughout all of Europe,
that the Macedonians'
oppression will not be forgiven
Death to all tyrants!

----------


## Elias2

If anything, this macedonian dispute highlights why communism is evil. Tito is dead but his zombies still walk the earth, it's like a bad horror movie.

----------


## DejaVu

*Y-DNA*
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...y_region.shtml


*Albania*
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

*Bulgaria*
I1 3%
I2a 20%
I2b 1%
R1a 18%
R1b 18%
G2a 1%
J2 20%
E1b1b 16%
T 1%
Q 1%

*Greece* 
I1 4%
I2a 10%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 12%
R1b 12%
G2a 3,5%
J2 25%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27%
T 3%

*Macedonia*
I1 10%
I2a 18%
R1a 13,5%
R1b 13,5%
G2a 4%
J2 12%
E1b1b 23%
T 4%

*Serbia*
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

----------


## DejaVu

*"Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority", said MHRMI president Bill Nicholov.*

----------


## Garrick

Dejavu you did not notice that you rejoice the death of one man, and he was King of Yugoslavia.

And I'll tell you another thing, after the war the communists, in an effort to all the Serbs in Macedonia forget who they are, changed surnames.

So people had to surnames named to the ic after the war changed to ski and a lot of people had to learn Macedonian language, which the Communists have declared mandatory 1945.

Not to mention that the Serbian heroes from the Middle Ages became the Macedonians.

And so on.

And I know because I have a lot connected with Macedonia, though I must say that many Macedonians today like Serbs and considered themselves close with Serbs.

Despite all the politics.

Personally all people are dear to me, I do not care whether they are Serbs or Macedonians, or anyone else, all people regardless of ethnicity or race have their qualities, strengths and abilities.

I believe that communism is a false ideology, but well, I can not stop people to be communists if they want, but it can be noted that Eastern Europe has progressed from the time the two decades ago when communist system replaced.

----------


## Elias2

@dejavu

Considering there is the rainbow political party representing them (FYROM's), and they get less votes each time, I think that statement is bull. I know you don't like greeks because they expose the frauds of FYROM.

----------


## DejaVu

Surnames with ending -ic -ov -ski existed all the time and that have nothing to do with Serbia. Mostly of the people changed to -ski because of the claiming nationality from Serbia and Bulgaria.

----------


## DejaVu

I got no problem or dislike any nationality got friends from all around the world. Even here on the forum I dont dislike anyone even if its aggressive behaviour.

----------


## Garrick

> Surnames with ending -ic -ov -ski existed all the time and that have nothing to do with Serbia. Mostly of the people changed to -ski because of the claiming nationality from Serbia and Bulgaria.


Dejavu
You are not well informed, people *after the war*, due *to pressure and orders Communists* had to *change last letters surnames*:

*ić* (often in the Serb)

in the 

*ski* (more is Macedonian)

and that was massive in Macedonia.

But there are people who remember what their parents told them and some even kept birth certificates before the war their families.

At the end of the end as a last name does not mean that one is better or worse person, but I say this only because a reminder of some of repression by the Communists after the war did.

----------


## DejaVu

*Make a research before guessing. Who is not well informed, me or you?*

*April 26th, 1690*
Letter of protection from Leopold I. ...This is to inform you that *two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kosana and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people,* with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service....we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mantioned _Macedonian_ people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the _Macedonian_ people....Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690. Representatives: defenders of the _Macedonian_ people.... J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.

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## Elias2

In 1690 there was no macedonian people. Orthodox christians in the Ottoman empire were known as Romans (Rum in turkish), and they also called themselves Romans. So that whole paragraph is fake. Keep posting your propaganda and I will keep shooting it down.

----------


## DejaVu

*Are you saying that there was no Greeks? Then you are a Roman change back your identity.*

----------


## DejaVu

*Documents of the Continued Existence of Macedonia and the Macedonian Nation for a period of over 2500 years*
What follows are documents that speak of the continued existence of Macedonia and of the Macedonian nation through the last 25 centuries. Macedonia is clearly distinguished from Greece (Hellas), Thrace, Illyria, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the Macedonians are likewise distinguished as distinct nation from the Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, as nation which continued to exist and survive trough the centuries (makedonika.org).
*500 B.C. - 500 A.D.*
Macedonia and the Macedonians as distinct nation in the works of the ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, as well in the works of the modern German, French, English, American historians. 
*586 A.D.* 
From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the _Macedonians_ gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the _Macedonians_ with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313
*758-759 A.D.*
From the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor "That year Constantine plundered the Sclavinii throughout _Macedonia_ and subjugated the rest." Theoph., I, p.430, 21-22.
From the Chronographia Tripertita by Anastasius Bibliothecarius: "In the eighteenth year of his reign, Constantine enslaved the Sclavinii of _Macedonia_ and he subjugated the rest." A. B., p.282, 20-21.
*8th Century* 
From Strabonos Epithomatus: "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and _Macedonia_ have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." C. Muller, Geographi graeci minores, Paris 1882, p.574. 
*821-823 A.D.* 
From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: "Thomas...having gathered our barges and dromon, had the opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and _Macedonia_." Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759
*904*
From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the _Macedonians_..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297
*First half of 10th C.*
From On the Themes by Constantine Porphyrogenitus: "... So from a kingdom _Macedonia_ turned into a province and now it has reached the position of a theme and strategy." C. Porfirogenito, De thematibus, Citta del Vaticano, 1952.
*986* 
From the History of Leo the Deacon: "...since they robbed the region of the _Macedonians_ mercilessly, destroying all adults.". Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.
*1041* 
From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate _Macedonians_, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53.
*1064* 
From the Chronicle of John Zonaras: "The Uzians...invaded _Macedonia_ and plundered it, and reached Hellada". Ioannis Zonorae Epitomae historiarum, Vol. VIII, Ed. Th. Buttner-Wobst, Bonnae 1897, p.678.
*1072-1073* 
From the History of Necephorus Vryenius: "...for the Scythians were carrying out sudden attacks in Thrace and _Macedonia_." Nicephori Bryenii commentarii, Ed. A. Meicke, Bonnae 1836, p.100, 102.
*1083-1085* 
From De expeditione Yerosolymitana by Radulfo Cadonis: "...Beomund Guiscard sailed across the Adriatic and occupied _Macedonia_." Tancredi in expeditione Yerosolymitana ....Paris, 1854, p.499.
*c. 1106* 
From the letter of Theophylactes of Ohrid to Gregorius Camaterus: "...do not retain such a man in the narrow regions of our _Macedonia_...". Theophylacti, col. 496, B-C.

----------


## DejaVu

*Beginning of 12th Century* 
From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand _Macedonian_ celebration in which not only the _Macedonian people_ gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.
*1185*
"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the _Macedonians_." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.
*Beginning of 13th C.* 
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth _Macedonian_". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.
*1246* 
Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other _Macedonian_ cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77
*1282-1321* 
...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to _Macedonia_. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower _Macedonian_ towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94
*1305*
At the battle of Apros in 1305 there were five syntaxeis, differentiated by *ethnicity*: the Alans and Tourkopouloi in the van, followed by the *Macedonians*, the Anatolians, the Vlach infantry and the Thelematarioi. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.256 
*1326*
...I beleive you know that Strimon...is the largest of all those that biscet Thrace and _Macedonia_... Nicephore Gregoras, Correspondence. Paris 1927, p.30-50.
*Middle 14th C.*
...Stefan became king of the Tribals. After he had set off from the region of the Ionian Sea, he razed Epidamnus to the ground, went into _Macedonia_ and made Skopje the capital... The king left the city of Skopje, taking with him men experienced in battle and a strong army and subordinated to his rule the places in the vicinity of Kastoria. Then having moved camp, he subjugated all of _Macedonia_, except for Terma... Laonici Chalcocondiae Historiarum. Ed. J. P. Migne - PG t.CLIX (Paris, 1866) col. 36, B-37, C.
*1349* 
(Code of) the honorable and Christ-loving _Macedonian_ Tsar Stefan_, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Dalmation, Arbanasian, Hungarian Wallachian_ and indipendent ruler of many other regions and lands... Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).
*Middle of the 14th C.* 
A Slav inscription from the church of St. George at Upper Kozjak in which a man called Bratan signs himself as being from _Macedonia_. Z. Rosolkovska-Nikolovska, Crkvata Sv. Georgi vo Goren Kozjak vo svetlinata na novite ispituvanja - Zbornik "Kiril Solunski", Kn. I, Skopje, MANU 1970, p. 222. 
*15th C.*
I remember the great subordination under which the Turk holds the emperor in Constantinople and all the Greeks, _Macedonians_ and Bulgarians....As I said earlier, there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, _Macedonians_, Albanians, Esclavinians, Rasians and Serbians... Bertrand de la Brocuiere, Putovanje preko mora, Beograd 1950, p.134-135, 140-141.
*13th Century - 15th Century*
Byzantine historians of the Palaiologan period (13th Century - 15th Century) rarely make any distinction more specific then "Thrace" and "_Macedonia_". Thus we read of the "Thracians" and "_Macedonians_", the "Thracian and _Macedonian_ armies", the "army" or "forces from Thrace and _Macedonia_"… For these historians the border between the two areas was the Nestos River or Kavalla. To the west was _Macedonia_ to the east was Thrace. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.65
*1461-1462* 
When the enemy forces are battered, no one doubts that the whole of Serbia, Bosnia, _Macedonia_, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Attica and the Peloponnese will return to the faithful....Inspired by this example the Thessalians, the Greeks, the Poloponnesians, the Epirans and the _Macedonians_ will all rebel and will win ... Jovan Radonic, Gjurac Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku - Spomenik XCV (1942), p. 128-129.
*August 8th, 1470.*
The Sultan stopped and spent the night ...in afield that represented the _Macedonian_ border...The River Vardar is nearby, which flows through _Macedonia_...of which some are Greeks, others _Macedonians_, Wallachs and even Italians, as well as other nations....Greeks and _Macedonians_ live there... Gio Mario degli Angiolelo, A. Matkovski i P. Angelkova, Nekolku kratki patopisi za Makedonija, Glasnik na INI, VXI/1 (1972), p. 246-247.
*1557*
...It is located in Thessaly, which borders on _Macedonia_, where the plague has reduced much of the population... Nbljudeni na mnozhestvo redki i zabelezhitelni neshta, videni v Grcija, Azija, Judea, Egipet, Arabia i drugi chuzhdi strani ot Pierre Belon d'Man, Sofia 1953, p.132-133; Frenski patepisi za Balkanite, XV-XVIII v. Sofia 1975, p. 95-98.
*1566*
...called Jakov; I laboured for much time and many years for this work (in order to contribute) to the holy books. I came out of _Macedonia_, my fatherland, and I entered.... Lj. Stojanovich, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi I, p. 203-204.
*1579*
German ruler Rudolph II to the Pope: ..the deliverer of this letter, don Petar Crnovic...born in Salonika and the other parts of _Macedonia_... A. Theiner, Vitera monumenta Slavorum meridionalium illustrantia. II. Zagrabiae 1875, p. 70.
*1589*
Gavril, Archbishop of Ohrid to Archduke Ferdinand of Habsburg: ...the Turk, who from day to day has pursued and blackmailed us and our ancestors ....in the whole of _Macedonia_, Greece and the nearby countries...then among our countries we have Bulgaria, Serbia, _Macedonia_, Oltenia... Landesregierungsarchive - Innsbruck, VI 50.
*1593*
Project by Alexander Komulovic to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans ...In other parts of Epirus and _Macedonia_ almost all are Christians of the Greek ritual... Biblioth. Barberiana cod. mnc. LVIII, 33, - Starine (Zagreb), Knj. XIV (1882), p. 86-87.
*August 11th, 1607*
The Duke of Savoy, Charles Emmanuel I, sends his own man of trust to _Macedonia_. ...who had arrived from Albania and _Macedonia_... V. Makrusev, Istoriski spomenici Juznih Slovena i okolnih naroda, Beograd 1882, p. 297-299.
*April 6-24, 1618*
(Senato Secreta. 337. _Macedonia_) ...The nobility of Macedon do not wish to have anything to do with the king of Spain... Calendar of State Papers and Manuscripts relating to English Affairs existing in the Archives and Collections of Venice and other libraries in Northern Italy, London 1864, Vol XV, p. 201-202.
*1624*
A letter from Pope Urban VIII to the Archbishop of Ohrid, Porphyrius Palaelogus To the respected brothers Porphyrius Paleologus, Patriarch of Justiniana Prima of Ohrid and the other subordinate archbishops, bishops of Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and of the other side of _Macedonia_. A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum II, (Zagrebiae 1875), p. 123.
*1690*
Manifesto of the Austrian Emperor Leopold I to the Nations of the Balkans ...Therefier we kindly call all the people who live throughout Albania, Servia, Mysia, Bulgaria, Silistria, Illyria, _Macedonia_ and Rashka... J. Radonjic and M. Kostic, Srpske privilegije od 1690 do 1792. SAN, Posebna izdanja CCXXV, Beograd 1954, p. 26-27.
*April 26th, 1690*
Letter of protection from Leopold I. ...This is to inform you that two _Macedonians_, Marko Kraida born in Kosana and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in _Macedonian_ Salonika, have told us that the _Macedonian_ people, with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service....we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mantioned _Macedonian_ people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the _Macedonian_ people....Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690. Representatives: defenders of the _Macedonian_ people.... J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.
*1704*
The French treveller and writer Paul Luca on _Macedonia_ ...and hour after midnight for Kavalla, which is six miles away and once was a large _Macedonian_ city by the sea coast. We should note that almost all the villages in _Macedonia_ are full of Christians and there are few Turks. A. Matkovski and P. Angelakova, Patuvanjata na francuskiot petepisec Pol Luka niz Makedonija od 1704 do 1714-Istorija v/2 (1969). p. 101.

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## DejaVu

*End of 18th C.*
Reports by the French Consul in Salonika, Felix de Beaujour, about _Macedonia_. The pashalik of Salonika includes the whole of Lower _Macedonia_ and covers 700 sq. miles....it must be noted that here I am only speaking about the most populated part of _Macedonia_; since Upper _Macedonia_ and Epirus are less populated....In _Macedonia_, as in Poland, the peasants die from hunger, while the masters live in abundance of gold... Felix de Beaujour, Voyage militaire dans l'Empire Othoman, I, Paris 1829, p. 127-128. n.1; p.130, 132. 
*1821*
_Macedonians_ pertecipate in the Romanian uprising ...At that time there was a man they called Sludzar Todor who urged all the foreigners (mostly _Macedonians_) to rebel against the boyar... Marko K. Cepenkov, Makedonsko narodno tvoreshtvo, Kn. X, Skopje 1972, p.308
*1846*
...I learnt the Slav alphabet from my father Makedonski, who calls himself so because we are _Macedonians_, and not Greeks.... Georgija Makedonski, Bogosluzhbena kniga "Opshti minej" - vo crkvata vo s. Radibush, Kriva Palanka, posledna nepagirana stranica.
*1851*
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19).
*1858*
Education in Veles ....Archbishop Antim declared to his peers that all peoples have been enlightened by the Greeks and so it is necessary that Greek should be taught in the schools of Veles, and not _Macedonian_, since the children alrady know their own language from their home... J. N. Iz Velesa u Makedoniji: Srbski Dnevnik, nbr. 44 (1858) (according to Branislav Vraneshevic, Vojvodinska javnost, p. 320-321).
*1865*
A note from the priest Demetrius: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I, priest Demetrius, was born in the village of Ogut, in the Kriva Palanka region. and held the services in my native village, when in the year of our Lord 1848, the champions of the town of Kriva Palanka employed me as a priest against the will of His Grace, the Greek priest Kir Gavrail. Mr. Mikhail Makedonski interceded most in favor of my appointment, because I'm a _Macedonian_ by birth and hold the services in the Slav language. Such was the Fate of my fatherland _Macedonia_, to suffer from the Greeks, so that they will not give us peace even today, although everyone knows that _Macedonia_ is an older state then their kingdom. We had our own Slav educators, Cyril and Methodius, who left us our Slav alphabet. They were _Macedonians_ born in Salonika, the glorious capital of _Macedonia_. Our Greek bishop does not admit this, so we do not want him to be our priest, but we want to have our own arch-priest, a Slav, for time everlasting. Amen. Zapis vo knigata Zitie Svetih vo Krivopalaneckata crkva. Pretposledna nepagirana strana.
*January 28, 1867*
To the Editor of "Makedonija" newspaper: ...The Greeks and the greacomans have met the newspaper with sorrow, since they always tried to hellenize the _Macedonians_, destroying also the Archibishopric of Ohrid -The Spark of Our Future. Yet, however hard they have tried to stop us from making progress, they could not entirely uproot the feelings of the _Macedonians_ that they are _Macedonians_. T.I. Kusev, Makedonija, Istanbul, Nbr. I (1/28/1867)
*March 25, 1870*
...lets us consider those of the present _Macedonians_ who blinded by concealed glow of Hellenic wisdom, accept that they should scorn and revoke their own nationality...the time seems opportune for me to exclaim:Ah, how far away the time really is when Hellas, as everybody calls her today, was subjected to _Macedonian_ authority... Stefan Zahariev, Chitalishte, Istanbul, I/7, 1871, p.214-216.
*November 30, 1870*
...A teacher named Mr. Shapkarevic...has come to visit me...the same day the books you had sent me...arrived. But as soon as he saw them he said that they should not be taught in the _Macedonian_ schools, since they were in the Bulgarian dialect; and that we should take his books which are in the _Macedonian_ dialect... Pravo of 10/30/1870 (according to B. Koneski, Kon Makedonskata prerodba, p.68).
*February 1874*
A letter from P.R. Slaveykov to the Bulgarian Exarch: Your Grace, I arrived in Salonika on the evening of the 14th of last month (January 1874). I immediately went to meet all the important local people and some others from the other _Macedonian_ towns. My aim was to gather information as son as possible on what was to be necessary for the succes of the mission with which you had entrusted me. I first met Father Averkij Zografski, and the following day Father Petar Dimitrov as well, the local president of the community. I may inform you, Your Grace, that the wind from here, from Salonika, blows and scatters to all sides. These two clergyman, to my mind, are the leaders of the movement fot the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, although one should not neglect Ohrid and to certain extent Bitola, Veles and Skopje either. The Uniate movement here is not without roots, as they think in Constantinople, especially His Grace, Count Ignatiev. During the time I have been in _Macedonia_ I have ascertained the same we had formerly known and written three years ago. Now, as then or twenty years ago, we are dealing with the _Macedonian_ question. In talks with few _Macedonian_ "patriots" I have understood that this movement, which had been only bare words till a few years ago, is now clear and precise thought - "The _Macedonians_ are not Bulgarians" and they persistenly strive, regardless of the price, to obtain a separate church of their own.
They also have the support in their separatism of smoe high clergyman in Constantinople, especially His Grace Nathaniel Ohridski, Panariot Plovdivski, and Archimandrite Hariton Karpuzov. I have understood this month from reliable sources that there are letters which arrive every day from Constantinople to the Salonika community, and are then sent to the other communities in the provinces. The letters are written in this spirit. One such letter, which the Salonika community sent to the community of Voden, calls upon the inhabitants of Voden to break off all their relations with theExarchate until the _Macedonian_ Church question is settled, because "now is the moment". Mr. Kuzman Shapkarev from Ohrid, who is well known to us, has done a great deal to spread the idea of the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid; he consatnly travels between Kukish and Ohrid and v.v., but at whose expanse, I do not know. Mr. Dimitar Makedonski, "the _Macedonian_ textbook writer", is no less active, reciving salary as a teacher from the Exarchate and from local Lazarists. 
Owing to such unreasonable sermons by the _Macedonian_ patriots that the church question has been settled only in favor of the Bulgarians, there is discontent among the people towrds the eparchies of th4 Danube and Adrianople vilayets as well as envy because of the earlier awakening of the Bulgarians. One can especially feel a great resistance against the East Bulgarian variant in literature. A general impression is that the local people think that the _Macedonians_ have been done a great harm with the settlement of the church question in favor of the Danubian and Thracian Bulgarians. This discontent has already grown into distrust of the Exarchate and its higher echalons. and there is an attitude formed that the local _Macedonian_ dialect should be declared a literary language and a _Macedonian_ hiearchy established. 
Great attention, Your Grace, should be paid to His Grace Nathaniel, who promised the local people taht as soon as he comes to his eparchy he will take steps for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. He seems to be connected with the _Macedonian_ craftsman in Constantinople, among whom he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate. For their own part they inform their own people in _Macedonia_ about this. It causes great discontent here. Consequently, separatism has its roots in the secret circle of Constantinople. If you press them there, the commotion wil calm down here. Silence the trumpet, there won't be any echo!
The question of Father Nil is a highly delicate one, because he has barricaded himself in Kukush and does not want to return. His ambition seems to have made him to this. He stuffed his head with the thought of becoming the Archbishop of Ohrid ar at least Metropolitan of Salonika. As an Exarchate delegate he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate as the " most informed person". He decribes the Exarchate to the people as indifferent and passive in saving the _Macedonian_ population from Greek spiritual slavery. Father Nil, who proved to be completely immature, seems to be a hireling of the highest Turkish vilayet authorities. However, his disobidiance to his headquarters began at the moment when he was summoned to return to Constantinople. Instead of obeying orders, he remained waiting there. His disobidiance also comes as a result of the suggestions that have been arriving from Constatinople. He maintains constant relations with Bishop Panaret and Nathaniel especially with the latter, who has suggested he stay in _Macedonia_ until he gets an appointment for Ohrid and arrives in _Macedonia_. I think that Father Nil should be cast out of _Macedonia_ at any cost and sent to Constatinople, because he is dangerous here. He already acts under the protection of the local Lazarists and the French consul.
Thoughts of the restoration of the Archbishop of Ohrid at the moment are most prevalent here, in Salonika. Here the schemes are being devised and here the hotheads are gathering. These thoughts of course are not based upon mature foundation, especially since Midhat-Pasha has been dismissed from Salonika. But they are gradually spreading to northern _Macedonia_, although they are not very clear. Some say one thing to the people and others say another. There is danger, if steps are not taken from spme authoritative place, of creating a genral ideal. Then the consequences would be much more serious. The best thing would be if His Grace, Count Ignatiev, were to visit _Macedonia_, because the population feels a secret hope thet only Russia could help them.
Tomorrow, with Gos's help, I intend to meet some of the elders from the local community. I shall try to convince them of the groundlessnes of their aspirations for a separarte Church when they already have one in the form of the Exarchate. Certainly the most difficult question will be that of the appointment of bishops of _Macedonian_ origin and especially that of the cheirotonia of Father Hariton. I kiss Your Grace's right hand.
*Salonika, Fabruary 1874.* Your obedient P.R. Slaveykov
Another letter from P.R. Slaveykov: Your Grace,
I sent you a letter via a trustworthy man two days ago, in which I briefly described to you the situation in Salonika and _Macedonia_ in connection with the unreasonable movement for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid in union with the Roman Catholic Church. After the meeting with some of the local elders I have understood that there were everywhere wide discussions for a broader plan, namely, to create a Uniate Church in _Macedonia_.
According to reliable sources, only the cheirotonia of Father Hariton is awaited before action will be taken. Until the blessing of the Pope for the proclamation of the Uniate Archbishopric of Ohrid arrives, the bishops with their eparchies will be constituent apart of the Uniate Church with their seat in Adrianople. Then Father Nathaniel will be appointed Archbishop of Ohrid and the following appointments will be made in the eparchies: Father Panaret for the Pelagonia eparchy, Brother Kozma Prechistenski for the Debar eparchy, Father Nil Izvorov for the Salonika eparchy and Father Dorotej for the Skopje eparchy. The other eparchies, for which there are no candidates proposed, will temporarily be governed by the neighboring archpriests. Father Nil will be Bishop of Salonika, Kukush and Voden. Father Hariton, after his ordination, will also become bishop of the Serez and Melnik eparchies. Father Dionisij, as an archimandrite, will temporarily govern the Strumica eparchy.
I have personal impression, Your Grace, that nobody here is asking for a real union with the Roman Catholic Church. It is simply a means of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. Catholic circles also feel this and therefore have no great confidence in the people with whom they are negotiating. So I do not think it is too late to actin order to overcome the discontent, which later could be subdued. The Uniate movement is more dangerous in the places where formerly there was a Union because of similar reasons. Kukush comes in the first place, followed by Dojran with sympathy from Strumica, Maleshevo and Voden. The Salonika, Serez, Melnik and Drama villages lag behind them. There is not any powerful stirring of the Uniate propaganda indeed, but where there is smoke there must be fire. The appointment of Bishop Nil is expected for the fire to blaze forth. The Poljanin eparchy will immediately turn into a Union and the Strumica and Voden eparchies will join in, as well as a huge number of villages in Salonika, Drama, Serres and other eparchies. The other _Macedonian_ eparchies will certainly be shattered, too, first the Veles eparchy and then the Skopje one. The Veles eparchy is also dissatisfied with its bishop, Damaskin, while at the same time the citizens of Veles, aroused by a craving for power, believe that they should govern _Macedonia_ in religious matters.
The causes of such a situation in the whole of _Macedonia_ are very obvious. The _Macedonian_ eparchies and towns I have already mentioned are extremely embittered by the serious position of the Church and the people in which they find themselves. The spreading of the idea of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid upon an Uniate basis is also helped by the French and Austrian consuls, who promise full protection before the Turkish authorities and persecution of the Constantinople Patriarchate. The Greeks themselves indirectly help the spreading of the Union in _Macedonia_, expecting the Exarchate to become weak because of the Union and thus finding allies in the liquidation of the Catholic propaganda in _Macedonia_. I have concluded this from the talks I had with the Greek consul in Salonika. He was not in the least worried at the danger of the spread of the Union in _Macedonia_. On the contrary, Greece is seeking support for its economic and national activity in _Macedonia_. According to the opinion of the Greek consul, the part of the people who will not accept the Union, disillusioned with the Exarchate, will remain under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate.
In the talks I had it was not by chance that the agents and adherents of the Union mentioned that the "_Macedonian_ question" could only be settled through the Union. In order to make full use of the discontent and bitterness of the people against the Exarchate, they strengthen their accusation against the Exarchate. They speak about the _Macedonian_ question upon a religious basis, but at the same time stir up the old separatist trends among the _Macedonians_ - to create a new ethnic region through the Union - in the spirit of Midhat-Pasha's schemes. As the Roman Catholic agents worked out a cultural and national program for the Union in 1860 for the liberation of the Bulgarian people from the Patriarchate, they now also appear with a specific program for the spiritual and national liberation of the _Macedonian_ eparchies through the Union. The _Macedonian_ activists already widely use the expression the _Macedonian_ movement in their language of communication, by which one should understand independent national and church liberation. I must emphasize strongly, Your Excellency, that this is a factor of an important political character - separatism is being spread starting from a religious basis towards a broader national one.
After the talks I had with Father Petar Dimov I felt that he has slowly retired from being drawn into the Union. Today he has officially renounced the Union and sent a letter to You expressing his loyalty to the Exarchate. I also talked to Father Averkij. He told me that he would also withdraw from the movement if appointments for the Exarchate bishops were issued by the autumn. My attitude towards these two Church dignitaries was moderate and friendly, because any repressive measures could stir up spirits.
.... Your spiritual child P.R. Slaveykov S. Dimevski, Dve pisma na P. R. Slaveykov za makedonizmot. - Razgledi XIV, 5(1972), p.561-566
*April 6, 1878* 
in Salonika To the Right Honorable Austen Henry Layard "...Russian agents are busy in the country, and even here, trying to get petitions that the whole of _Macedonia_ be included in Bulgaria... They tell the people: If you remain out, your state (and you see what it is) will be worse then it was before, while if you attach yourselves to us and our cause, you will get all the benefits accruing to a large and powerful Kingdom, under Russian protection... I remain... Edward B. Barker British Museum, London, Dmss Layard Papers, Vol. LXXXIX Addd. 39.019, 186-187.
*1878*
From the record of the Imperial Russian secret archives on the arrangement and government of the Balkan regions. ...Count Shuvalev demands that all the necessary measures for pacification of _Macedonia_ be undertaken. For its purpose, it would be desirable to send competent agents there, and to proclaim to the _Macedonians_ on behalf of the Governor, the Emperor, that His Highness is concerned about their fate, as much as for the other Slavs, and they will be granted the same freedom as that of the Bulgarians, now already liberated.... Dokumenti iz sekretnite arhivi na Ruskoto pravitelstvo. Sofia 1893, p.11-12.
*1878*
The rules of the _Macedonian_ Rebel Commitee of the Kresna Uprising It is well known to all of us that this ill-fated country of ours, _Macedonia_, owing to the egoistic aims of the Great Powers, was gain left to Turkey after the Congress of Berlin. As a result of that, in certain regions of our fatherland many scenes full full of blood, known to all of us, took place....We rebelled as advocates of freedom. With the blood we shed all over _Macedonian_ fields and forests, we serve freedom, as the _Macedonian_ army of Alexander of Macedon did, with our slogan "Freedom or Death!" The aim of the Uprising in _Macedonia_ 1.The uprising in _Macedonia_...should be extended all over _Macedonia_. 2. Those people from _Macedonia_ who feel themselves to be _Macedonians_ and love the freedom of their fatherland are taking part in the uprising. From the private archives of Cyril, Patriarch of Bulgaria, Arch. of Act 2341, AE 50, pp. 30-61. The Residence of the monastery of Dragolevci, Sofia, P.R. Bulgaria.
*June 8, 1879*
Georgi Pulevski to Despot Badzovic: ...The Bulgarians here are playing tricks with us and are turning the water to their mill alongside divine Nathaniel, who is a _Macedonian_, but rather inclined towards the Bulgarians... Arhiv Srbije (Beograd) Fond: Ministarstvo prosvete, P. nbr. 981/8.VI.1879; Razgledi XIV/10 (1972), p. 1132.
*March 23, 1881*
Manifesto of the Provisional Government of _Macedonia_: ...our dear _Macedonia_, our dear homeland is calling upon you: you who are my faithful children, you who are descendants of Aristotle and Alexandar the Great, you in whose veins _Macedonian_ blood flows, do not let me die, but help me!... President Vasil Chomo, Secretary Nikola Trajkov in Kjustendil Centralnii Gosudartsvenii Arhiv Okjabarskii revoljucii i socialtieskoga stroitelstva SSSR, Moskva - Fond Gr.Ignatieva No.730 - opis No. 1, ed.hr.79; Lj. lape, Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskio narod, II del, Skopje 1976, p.256-258.
*May 9, 1888*
Salonika. Temko Popov to Despot Badzovic ...I shall try to write to you, as far as possible, in our language, replacing the words I don't know with Bulgarian ones. What else can I do, Despot? While our language could one dictate to the other Slav languages, it has now remained the poorest of all, and like a begger, it serves either Bulgarian or Serbian....Let us no lie to ourselves, Despot, tha national spirit in _Macedonia_ has reached such a stage today that even if Jesus Christ had come to the Earth, he would not have been able to persuade the _Macedonian_ that he was a Bulgarian or a Serb, excepting those _Macedonians_ in whom Bulgarian propaganda has already taken root. In order to convince yourself of this, you must have Bulgarianism in view. Bulgarian propaganda has now been working for 20 years in _Macedonia_, in the blindest of times - when Hellenism, coming from and entirely alien nation, started to take root in the _Macedonian_ heart; but the _Macedonians_, seeing a ray of Slavism, rejected everything as if eyeless, without paying attention to the difference. It was sufficient for them to have broken with Hellenism. But what is to be done now i.e. after twenty years of Bulgarian striving, indoctrination and unsparing pecuniary sacrifaces? My dear Despot, everybody does what is natural, but unexpected for the Bulgarians, that is, now every _Macedonian_ admits he is not a Bulgarian and declares loudly his nation, even though he may stilluse Bulgarian means, not having his own, of course. ... Your friend T. Popov Narodna Biblioteka, Belgrade - fond - Jovan Hadzi Vasiljevic II 413/III May 9 1988.
*1890*
A request by the citizens of Ohrid for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid To His Holiness, the Great Patriarch, Constantinople, We, loyal subjects to His Majesty, the Emperor Sultan Abdul Hamid II, for a long time did not have freedom for our Church, and since 1872 have become an even more misled flock, for we came under the Bulgarian Exarchate, deceived by Bulgarian propaganda. Thus we became schismatics, as well. ...Apart from the fact that Bulgarians deceived and beguiled us, they also reject our language, change our holy customs and alter our character, too. We cannot tolerate it any more and we do not want our children to curse us and the graves of our forefathers... (signatures of 120 citizens of Ohrid) DA DSIP - Beograd - PPO, F.7, d.6, p.br. 962, 1890.
*June 22, 1891*
Skopje Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Archimandrite Dionysius in Sofia. ...our Holy Exarchate headed by His Holiness Exarch Joseph I does everything possible to persuade the wretched _Macedonian_ people that it has good intentions, that it cares for their present and future and that it wants to draw them out of the darkness of national unawareness and create holy Bulgarians of them. But I would not have to persuade you too long, my dearest brother in Christ, that our Holy Exarchate, with its religious and educational activity here, in _Macedonia_, in fact carries out a most miserable task, it deprives a people of its name and replaces it with another, it deprives them of their mother tongue and replaces it with another, alien one, in order to allow its government and its Bulgarian masters to extend their commerce to foreign territories, too. And what else would you call this, my dear brother, other then a new slavery, even more terrible then the Turkish one? The Turks take the property and the lives of the people, but do not encroach upon their spirit. They destroy the body but respect the soul. And our Holy Exarchate kills the latter, the perpetual... I have written this to you, so that you would not be amazed by my previous letter in which I stated my opinion that we clergyman, _Macedonians_ in origin, should unite and urge our people to awaken, throw off foreign authority, throw off even the Patriarchate and the Exarchate, and spiritually unified under the wing of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, their only true Mother Church. Is it not high time to put an end to the national movements of a single people among which some recognize the Patriarchate, some the Exarchate and some even bow to Mohammed? Is it not high time to put an end to hatred between blood brothers? And how could this be achieved if not by the way of our national Church , by way of the Archbishopric of Ohrid? I shall be sincere, my dear brother in Christ, and shall openly declare to you: we, the _Macedonians_, to not suffer as much by the Turks, long live our Padishah, as by the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Serbs, who have set upon us like vultures upon a carcass in this tortured land and want to split it up. ("And they parted Your garments, Jesus")..... ...Theodosius of Skopje Centralen D'rzhaven istoricheski archiv (Sofia) 176, op. 1. arh.ed. 595, l.5-42 - Razgledi, X/8 (1968), p.996-1000.
*December 4, 1891* 
Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Pope Leo XIII I, the undersigned Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, by God's Mercy head of Skopje eparchy, am submitting this request both in my name and in the name of of the whole Orthodox flock of _Macedonia_, in which we are begging His Holiness to accept us under the wing of the Roman Catholic Church...Our desire springs from the historical right of the Orthodox _Macedonian_ people to be freed from the jurisdiction of foreign Churches - the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate - ....The borders of the Archbishopric should conform to the present borders of _Macedonia_... Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Roma: Indice della Potenza - Marzo 1892-93, Somm.XV, f.132-141.
*August 20, 1892*
Serbian Consul in Bitola, Dimitrije Bodi, to Minister of Foreign Affairs, Vladan Djordjevic, in Belgrade. I have to inform you, dear Sir, that some intellectualist movement among the local teachers has recently appeared in the town of Kostur, which insists upon rejection of Greek and Bulgarian propaganda, and the introduction of the _Macedonian_ dialect as the language of teaching in the schools. This initiative has in fact been started....If you are interested in these matters, Sir, please answer me with a ciphered telegram. DA - DSIP. P odd.I red 278 (1892).
*August 26, 1892*
Serbian Consul in Bitola, Dimitrije Bodi, to Minister of Foreign Affairs, Vladan Djordjevic, in Belgrade. ....I have heard from my own people that the local community at its meeting of 22nd Auguts this year, decided that the teaching in the new 1892/1893 school year should be done in the _Macedonian_ dialect. The town teachers were given the task of working a program for the language teaching and a provisional grammar of the _Macedonian_ dialect.... DA - DSIP. P odd.I red 278 (1892).
*1890*
Karl Hron: "The Nationality of the _Macedonian_ Slavs": ...From my own studies of the Serbo-Bulgarian dispute I came to the conviction that the _Macedonians_ are an individual nation, both by their history and their language; thus, they are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians... Karl Hron, Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens, Wien 1890, S. 4-5, 15-17, 20, 22,26
*1896*
Paul Argyriades (A French socialist born in _Macedonia_): ...Present day _Macedonia_ is one of the European provinces of the Turkish Empire. It borders on the south with Epirus, Thessaly and the Mediterranean, on the east with Thrace and the Mediterranean, on the north with Mount Hemus, Bulgaria and Serbia and with Albania on the west...._Macedonia_, as the homeland of the two greatest personalities of the Ancient World - Aristotle and Alexander the Great, who conquered the world. should it anew conquer its independence and its autonomy?...And if an autonomous _Macedonian_ administration were to be introduced in this land in ten years only, it would be the earthly paradise of the world...The small states - the Greek, Bulgaria and Serbian ones -argue for the acquisition of _Macedonia_, using all kinds of proofs - chauvinist and historical - invented in support of their interests, while no one seems to realize that if the historical truth were to be respected, _Macedonia_ should rather have the right to possess all those countries, which would like to devour it, since once it governed and ruled them itself....The _Macedonians_ do not want the kind of caresses which may strangle them. They want to remain _Macedonians_ without any other epithet, guarding for themselves their beautiful _Macedonia_... Almanach de la Question Sociale. Illustre'. (Paris), Pour 1896, pp. 240-244.
*1897*
From "Maleshevski Balkan" journal: At Least Do Not Hinder Us There is hardly any harsher situation then that of the _Macedonian_ cause. Aroused by sympathy, feelings and tradition to maintain always the closest links with its direct neighbors, the Bulgarians, Serbs, and others, today it surprises us most mercilessly and makes us repent. Nobody, undoubtedly nobody, would deny the justification of our hopes in the Bulgarians and the Serbs, as people who stand closest to us, as people with the same past as ours, etc. ... From "Maleshevski Balkan", Sofia, I, 16, 1 (1897).
*1897*
William Gladstone ...Next to the Ottoman Govt. nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy then jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not _Macedonia_ for _Macedonians_, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians. And if they are small and weak, let them bind themselves together for defence, so that they may not be devoured by others, either great and small, which would probably be the effect of their quarreling among themselves. The Times (London), 6th January 1897, p.12
*1898*
Petar Mandzukov to Kostadin Kirkov ...Perhaps our slavery would not have been so difficult if various kinds of propaganda had not interfered in our affairs, which under the name of "brothers" and "benefactors" divide brothers from brothers and make the Turks commit the worst of crimes. Those "brothers" of ours do everything possible to prevent the unity of our freedom-loving forces. And what has been the result of such propaganda? Even the true sons of our country, those whoa re really not afraid to sacrifice their lives at the altar of our Fatherland, often wrongly think that the liberation of _Macedonia_ could not be conceived without the interference of this or that state. They go over to the side of this or that people and forget their own people. Instead of uniting their forces in favor of their own people and striving in unison to liberate it from bondage, they cannot agree whom they should serve. We know, Kostadin, that our fatherland differs by its population from one Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia, which are homogenous countries. There are various nationalities and religions in our country. There are _Macedonians_, Greeks, Wallachians, Turks, Jews, Albanians, even a few Armenians. and let us not forget the Gypsies.... CDIA (Sofia), f.70, on., AE70-74; - Razgledi, X/7 (1968), p.847-851

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## Elias2

Greek Enlightenment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment

You should do more research on the poeple you accuse of being fake.

Post more propaganda, I'm waiting ;)

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## DejaVu

*1900*
A. Brutus (A. Drandar): Concerning a movement in _Macedonia_ A considerable section of the European press does not cease to inform us of the immense sufferings undergone by the Christian population of _Macedonia_....It was the sad fate of that population that made us publish this booklet, based upon our experience and personal observations I had acquired impartially, as a foreigner, during my stay in _Macedonia_ of several years...If one takes a retrospective view of the history of _Macedonia_ to the most ancient of times, one remains amazed by the great role this small country, this classical country par excellance, played in the world....The _Macedonian_, born in a land to which nature was so favorable, has always longed for heroic feats and aspired to great deeds...Even the glorious cradle of Ancient Hellenism is subjected to the _Macedonian_ kings...We find _Macedonians_ on the Byzantine throne at the time when this empire was at its peak. Following the course of history, we see how the star of _Macedonia_ shone with the same intensity. It plays the chief role in the revival of the Slav people. Thus, the two brothers exalted to apostles, Cyril and Methodius, objects of general admiration for the Slav world, are _Macedonians_, and owing to the very existence of these two apostles, this small land becomes the cradle of the Slav people to whom it gives its religion and art...The inhabitants of _Macedonia_ do not want to be annexed either to Bulgaria or Serbia, or Greece; they want, they want so strongly, to live a human life in an autonomous country. Their slogan is: _Macedonia_ to the _Macedonians_. A. Brutus, A Propos d'un Mouvement en Macedonie, Bruxelles 1900, pp.12-13, 15, 56.
*1901*
A.V. Amfiteatrov: The Land of Discord Each Slav should and is obliged to feel sympathy for _Macedonian_ freedom. But _Macedonian_ freedom cannot be achieved with their own, _Macedonian_ means. The land is too small and weak to fight against the power of Constantinople, which only has to give a sign and tens of thousands of soldiers will attack the Rumalian vilayets and strangle them like mice before Europe could compose itself, even before Europe could know it. Hence, _Macedonia_ cannot be freed with its own forces. Only an evil enemy, an unconscious enemy of Slavism could desire an armed movement in _Macedonia_ now when the land is totally unprepared for an uprising, in circumstances of tied hands of the whole Europe, of Serbo-Bulgarian clashes, of huge preparations of the Turks against the slightest possibilities of movement. Or a real fool. These were the exact words of one of the high-ranking persons deciding the fate of Balkan Slavism in a discussion with me concerning the _Macedonian_ committees. Nobody in Europe, none of the Great Powers can actively intercede in favor of the _Macedonians_ against the Turks at the present moment - except, perhaps, Austria. Bu the very name of Austria causes panic in the _Macedonian_ Slav element, who will allow Austria to reign in _Macedonia_? For it would be the destruction of all ideas of pan-Slavism, it would be the end of the Eastern Question, it would be the decisive and last victory of the German world over the Slav world. Then, we the Russians, would only be humbly left to falling out of step with that state with the projected historical tasks, with the repudiation of racial ideals - a state similar to modern Italy or Spain, only in greater proportions. The young Slav states, adjacent to _Macedonia_, are too young and too poor to go into struggle for it. At the same time, these states are disintegrating both from the internal situation and external family hostilities. The Bulgarians and the Serbians cannot stand each other; each consider _Macedonia_ as their lawful property. Neither the Bulgarians nor the Serbs have even the slightest desire to create _Macedonia_ for _Macedonia_. Enthusiast for an autonomous _Macedonia_ can only be found among the _Macedonian_ natives. Neither the Serb nor the Bulgarian wants the autonomy of _Macedonia_. As far as the question of whether _Macedonia_ should become Bulgarian or Serbian is concerned, every Bulgarian would tell you with utter sincerity: -It would be better that the Turks ruled there eternally then to give the Serbs a chance to spread towards the Aegean Sea. And the Serb would say: - It would be better that the Turks did there whatever they allow your damned brothers to achieve their Greater Bulgaria from one sea to the other! The question of nationality has not been settled in _Macedonia_ and it is hard to assume that it will ever be settled in a satisfactory manner. If we are to believe Gopcevic and Jasterbov there are almost no Bulgarians - all of the are Serbs. If we are to believe Ofejkov and Miljukov, there are no Serbs, all of them are Bulgarians. It is more probable that where we are dealing with a perfectly branch of Slavs, transitional between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. But that branch taken alone is insufficiently significant to win its freedom and turn itself into a state unit. Consequently, no matter how the question of its nationality is resolved, it is deprived of the possibility to exist, so to say; it is cursed in itself to serve as political material directly for its neighbors, and deviously and indirectly for Europe, which governs its naighbours. The basic reason for the failures of the _Macedonian_ revolutionary organization lies in the fact that it is fed by means that have historically proved their ineffectiveness against state order of a European kind to overthrow the system and authority that have nothing in common with European order; since with the tactics, which have overthrown many European government, it attempts to erase military slavery, which has continued in _Macedonia_ and Old Serbia for five centuries now; since the arms, victorious in the civil war, are also used in external war, because the Turk is not a fellow-citizen and compatriot of the Slavs, but he was, is and will be their external enemy... - They consider me a Bulgarophile, I.A. Zinovjev told me. But it isn't so at all. I behave in perfectly equal manner to all Slavs, and, if a person is decent and likable, it is all the same to me whether he is a Bulgarian, a Serb or a _Macedonian_. But I am a Russian representative and I have been sent here to protect, first of all, Russian interests. Permanent patronage over the Balkan Slavs is inseparably linked with Russian interests. We are their natural patrons. But this patronage does not mean Russia's following of Slav leaders; patronage is not characterless yielding. However, as far as the _Macedonian_ question is concerned, the Bulgarians, as our most spoilt children in the whole of the Slav world, would like precisely to lead Russia with them where they have blindly started closing their eyes, demanding that the patronage be turned into yielding. The activities of the _Macedonian_ committees, long under the patronage (with) our tolerance of the Bulgarian government, had the following direct calculation: - We shall force the Turks to abandon their reserved behavior they have taken up and borne with difficulty - wit a series of small explosions, murders and blackmails we shall arose the fanatic excitement of the Moslems, the Sultan will be forced to give in to the demands of his subjects of the same faith, and Turkish atrocities will start in _Macedonia_, blood will be shed, villages will be burnt. For the attainment of the sublime goal it is of no consequence whether fifty or fifty thousand people will be killed - the main thing is: slaughter must be caused, which will in turn cause the necessity of European intervention, and since the protection of the Slavs is the perennial deed of Russia and it will never leave the _Macedonian_ question to Austria - consequently, volens-nolens, Russia shall have to send again hundred of thousands of soldiers to the Balkan Peninsula and achieve the freedom of _Macedonia_ with its bayonets, i.e. it should put the land into the mouth of the Bulgarians. For they don't recognize any other nationality in _Macedonia_ except the Bulgarian one. Consequently, the future freedom of _Macedonia_ for them is either the fulfillment of the Treaty of San Stefano and unification of _Macedonia_ with the Bulgarian Principality, or a creation of a new autonomous Bulgarian body, which will sooner or later be merged with the former into an 'integral Bulgaria'.... Cvetan Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, Skopje 1978, pp.189-190,193-194.
*1902* 
Appeal of the "National _Macedonian_-Albanian League" Brother _Macedonians_! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902
*1902*
Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev ...Let us not expect freedom either from the Greeks or the Bulgarians; it is we, the _Macedonians_, who should fight for our _Macedonia_ ourselves... Neobjaveno pismo, Nova Makedonija, (Skopje), XXIV, nbr.7744 (May 5 1968), p.8
*1903*
Victor Berard on the _Macedonians_. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the _Macedonians_. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the _Macedonians_. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.
*1904*
A _Macedonian_ Theory Was it so long before the liberation of the Bulgarians that throughout Bulgaria, in answer to the question as to what they were (by nationality), the Bulgarians said they were "Christians" or raya (non-Moslem Turkish subjects)?And even now it is not so rare on occasion to hear a Bulgarian answering in court as to the question of his nationality that he is a "Christian". The notion of nationality has still not become a new accomplishment of his mind. During the Turkish period, the Bulgarian peasant referred to the Bulgarians in the towns as "Greeks" and city lother were "Greek dress" for him. And since the Greeks designated that peasant as a "fat-headed Bulgar", his brother from the town loved to be called a "Hellene", so that he should not be scorned for his real national name. It is not exactly the same case with what Mr. Misirkov elaborates concerning the name of the _Macedonian_ Slav? The name "Bulgar" fell even in Bulgaria to such position which earned only the contempt of the others. This name appeared so empty even in the mouth of the Bulgarians themselves that it became a synonym for "Christian"; the later designated the whole ethnic contents of Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. When our peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox. The Russian Tsar was a "Bulgarian Tsar" for him not by nationality, but by Orthodox Christianity. A. Teodorov-Balan, Edna makedonska teorija - Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818
*1907-1908*
The _Macedonian_ Villages ...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in _Macedonia_ the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was _Macedonian_, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike. And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit that they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth their dialect, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "_Macedonian_". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the _Macedonians_ thought they are _Macedonians_. Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp. 204-205
*June 25, 1910*
Archimandrite Neophyte in Skopje to Bulgarian Exarch Joseph in Constantinople: Starting from some time ago, as I have already informed You several times, matters in the eparchy, and especially here have not developed as they should. The Eparchy Council, which, as You know, consists of the town's elders, has decided to send You a letter in which it strongly condemns the candidature of the former Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, and among other things, upon my suggestion writes the following in the protest: "Outraged, we read in the newspapers that a group of villains wishes at any cost to urge the population - the voters of the Skopje Eparchy - to bring back that typical intransigent, Theodosious, as the Metropolitan of the Skopje Eparchy. This is the same Theodosius who 17 or 18 years ago wanted to separate the Skopje Eparchy from the Exarchate and proclaim himself an independent Metropolitan. For this purpose, he then made a special seal on which he deleted the words "Bulgarian Exarchate", so sacred to us, and printed his own baptismal certificates, marriage certificates and other documents; he did not fulfill the circular letters and the orders of the Exarchate, etc. Yet, since at that time there were not such a strong anti-Bulgarian movement among the local Bulgarians, it was possible for the Exarchate to remove this dangerous schismatic in time and thereby preserve the unity of the Bulgarian Church in Turkey. Now this same schismatic, contrary to Exarchist interests, wishes to restore his eparchy and continue his dishonest business of disuniting our Bulgarian people. We protest most strongly against his nomination as Metropolitan of Skopje, because he insults the Bulgarian feeling among the population". Unfortunately, Your Grace, if the Eparchy Council has such people with common sense, this is not the case with some craftsman's circles, which have come under the influence of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov, a teacher, who has taken the idea into his head that he is a leader of the people. He constantly speaks against the Exarchate and its leadership, including myself, and urges the craftsman to support Metropolitan Theodosios' candidature, since he once suffered for defending the interests of the _Macedonians_. It would not be superfluous if I informed You about another problem, which, I presume, will represent a kind of plot in this whole election propaganda. I have understood from some members of the Council that Krste Petkov, who at one time started "Misirkovism", had requested from certain relative of his, living here in Skopje, that he put him in touch with this teacher, Petar Pop Arsov, in connection with collecting songs about Krale Marko in the Skopje district, and Mr. Pop Arsov was so kind as to agree immediately. I am writing this to you, Your Grace, a justified suspicion that schismatic forces are being brought to life here. The said Mr. Krste Misirkov expressed in a letter to his relative has desire to return to _Macedonia_, more precisely, to come to Skopje as soon as _Macedonia_ was liberated. The man wished to be a professor at the Skopje university (?!). If this is true, and there are no reasons for lying to me, then You may conclude Yourself what danger threatens the Bulgarian idea in these historic times. Just imagine if the "Misirkovism" of Mr. Krste, the "separatism' of His Grace Theodosius and the "autonomism" of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov joined together! I am of the opinion, Your Grace, upon the basis of the protest by the Eparchy Council (which was, after all, published in the press) that the candidature of His Grace Theodosius should be withdrawn, by which a danger of as yet unseen proportions for the Bulgarian cause in _Macedonia_ would be evaded. I remain Your Grace's younger brother in Jesus Christ and I pray for You. S. Dimevski, Diskusija - K.P. Misirkov i nacionalno-kulturniot razvoj na makedonskiot narod do Osloboduvanjeto - Zbornik Misirkov. Simpozium. Skopje, Institut za makedonski jazik, 1975, pp.338-339. 
*1905*
Sveta Simic, representative of the Kingdom of Serbia in Bulgaria, to Jovan Jovanovich-Pizon, head of the consular department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Belgrade. D. Gruev again visited me last Saturday. D. Hristov also chanced to be in my house, so we spent more then 3 hours in discussion. The _Macedonians_ have been afraid that the Bulgarians and we agreed to divide them, and accordingly they are the only ones left to frown at the Imperial Alliance. They suspect it hides something else. They continually make agreements and preparations but undertake nothing more serious. They constantly send smaller bands and ammunition into their country. All their activity is reduced to this only in present. They would like to make an agreement with us, but such as to sacrifice nothing of what they call their autonomy. They have come to see more and more that there are obstacles before them which they cannot fight successfully, and under the influence of which they continually lose their importance as an authoritative factor in the development of the Maced(onian) question. This is what hurts them immensely. They are divided among themselves, just as before. The differences of their views also intensify their personal hatred, which makes some of them avoid the others, plotting among themselves....Unfavorable rumors reach us from _Macedonia_, too. The people, craving for freedom, would like to reject their yoke and uncertainty as soon as possible, so that they would be ready for some decisive steps as well, but their distrust both of their leaders and Bulgaria prevent them. Under the influence of the news about the Imperial Alliance a mood has been created in which they would like to be freed from their yoke at any cost, even if they were compelled to come under Bulgaria and Serbia. And if these two did not help them, they would gladly accept Austrian occupation, as well... Arhiv SFR Jugoslavije (Belgrade) - Fond Jovan Jovanovic-Pizon, 80 (1905).
*1906*
To my brother in arms, Dushan, voyvoda from the village of Bistrica Brother, you should know that I have received your letter and understood all that you wrote me. We have put the people in great trouble, it is true, but who is to blame for this? You say we are to blame, we say you are to blame. As far as I know, ten years have passed (and) has never been over those years any bloodshed between ourselves or division into Serbomans or Bulgarophils. We have been _Macedonian_ fighters and we will fight to the end for the _Macedonian_ people, but we do not fight for Bulgaria or Serbia, nor Greece; they are free and live freely and drink in shaded inns; they have the right to drink so since they shed their blood earlier. We, who come from this _Macedonian_ land should work for _Macedonia_, because our _Macedonian_ brothers are murdered on the roads and our _Macedonian_ sisters are disgraced by the bloody Turk, by the fat Turk. We are not against any nationality of either Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece; we should recognize the merit of those who would help us. If there had been any Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek land here, they should not have waited for us to die in the mountains but should have liberated _Macedonia_ with their armies; only then they could have demanded Serbia, Bulgarian or Greek land here... Blazhe Krusheski DA SSID - Fond Izvrshnog odbora Srpske narodne organizacije F-6 (1906)
*1912*
A.V. Amfiteatrov: _Macedonia_ ...Following the Russian war, Turkey of the old regime finally turned into a "sick man", and the heirs of the executors of the expected will gathered around his death-bed. The future destiny of _Macedonia_ came to depend not as much on the will of Turkey itself as on the sympathies of the European guardians. In the 19th century Europe learned through Germany, Italy and Greece to consider the right to national self-determination a little. Thus, all the states and countries bordering on _Macedonia_ have started intensive propaganda in favor of their nationalities, as it were a race or along jump for an award. They have taken care, as much as they have means and power, to persuade Europe by truth and lies, that allegedly the national self-determination of the _Macedonian_ inclines in their favor, and not in favor of the neighboring nation. In this respect the Bulgarians proved more swift the their rivals. In order to make _Macedonia_ Bulgarian, they had to Bulgarize the _Macedonians_. Thus, following the Bulgaro-Serbian War of 1885, the greatest powers and considerable sacrifices of the Bulgarian state apparatus were given to the Bulgarization of the _Macedonian_ Slavs. Bulgarian agents were the priests and the teachers; the comitajis and band-members became the secret government of the country and, allegedly, its soul. In the beginning the propaganda was exceedingly successful. Miljukov, who visited _Macedonia_ towards the end of the nineties, looked at it too much through Bulgarian glasses and - so to say - proclaimed all the _Macedonians_ to be full-blooded Bulgarians. But his mistake can be considered as made with clear conscience. He found _Macedonia_ so profoundly and brilliantly Bulgarized that it is no wonder that he took the clothes for the body - the culture for the nationality. Those who have read The Land of Discord know my view about the _Macedonians_. They are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians, but a primordial Slav people with simple basic language which is to a great degree able to be subject to any form offered by another, more influential and more developed Slav culture. There are _Macedonian_ Bulgarians where the Bulgarian school and Church are firmly established, and Serbs where literacy is in the hands of the Serbs. They could have been turned with the same ease, under the influence of education, religion and commerce, into Little Russians, Great Russians or Poles. Their language is melted metal which can easily be molded into any kindred form. But - a related one. So, it is national kinship which is the main reason for making _Macedonia_ a center of confrontation between the Slavs and for destroying the Greek influence in it. Statistics about _Macedonia_ are confusing, tendentious and fantastic. In spite of that, even according to Greek sources, it is easy to see the Hellenes represent a minority in the _Macedonian_ vilayets. As a result of this and aiming to create a majority, the Greeks had to resort to sufficiently unscrupulous falsifications, counting all Slav Patriarchists as Greeks. These are Slavs who have not acknowledged the Exarchate but remained faithful to the Constatinople Patriarchate, although they speak only Slavic. In this way the Greeks have come to understand one's nationality in the same manner as the Turks - religion equals nationality. A patriarchist - means a Greek... C. Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, pp.210-211.
*1912*
Bulgarian statesman Dimitar Rizov on his nationality ....In the golden months of the successful beginning of the war against the Turks, he spoke to me as a convinced Yugoslav (South Slav). He explained to me, I being a Croat, the real situation of matters in _Macedonia_ and said that it was shame that the first free Slav state had not been founded in _Macedonia_, which would equally attract to union the Bulgarians and the Serbs, and would be a bond and not a cause of discord between the Serbs and the Bulgarians...He told me that the _Macedonians_, to tell the objective truth, were neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, but _Macedonian_ Slavs who spoke in their own individual _Macedonian_ language or dialect. ..."Our people", he said, "were only '_Macedonian_ Christians,' and then, when Greek propaganda developed they become '_Macedonian_ Christian Slavs'. It was all the same to us which Christian country would help us to free ourselves from the Turks. I was born in Bitola. There were several grammar-schools in Bitola: Turkish, Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian. It was all the same to us, the Slavs, which Slav grammar-school we attended. For example, alongside many of my friends who later became Bulgarians, I attended the Serbian grammar-school. It is true that the teachers in the grammar-school told we were Serbs, just as those in the Bulgarian grammar-school were told that we were Bulgarians, but we kept our own counsel, and that was what our parents told us at home: it does not matter, let them talk, but we are _Macedonian_ Christian Slavs..." Ivan Meshtrovic, famous Croatian sculptor, Uspomene na politichke ljude i dogagjaje. Zagreb 1969, pp. 25-26, 39.
*March 1, 1913*
Memorandum on the Independence of _Macedonia_ submitted by the _Macedonian_ colony in St. Petersburg to the Conference of the representatives of the Great Powers in London. ...it is more suitable for all the neighbors of _Macedonia_ that this country remain undivided, since by any division, sections of our living compatriots will remain under foreign authority and will perish. The _Macedonians_ have won their right to self-determination over their whole recent history, as well...The Serbs and the Bulgarians deliberately say nothing about these huge _Macedonian_ victories and permit nobody to write about them...As a result of all this, the _Macedonian_ Colony in St.Petersburg, fulfilling its sacred duty towards its fatherland and conscientiously applying the slogan "_Macedonia_ to the _Macedonians_", protests and cannot remain indifferent when the allied Balkan states (Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece) - our brothers in blood and faith - aim to dismember our fatherland....Here is what is needed for the _Macedonian_ people; 1. _Macedonia_ should remain a single, indivisible and independent Balkan state with it geographic, ethnographic, historical, economic and political borders. 2. A _Macedonian_ national assembly should be established on the basis of general elections in Salonika in the soonest possible time, which would work out in detail the internal structure of the state and determine its relations with the neighboring states. Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg 1913-1914
*1913*
Nace Dimov Chupovski: A Political Survey of _Macedonia_ and the _Macedonians_. In examining the _Macedonian_ question from the political point of view, I shall not deal with the old times....Condemned at first to Roman rule, and then to Byzantine oppression, and finally to Turkish slavery, the terrible name of _Macedonian_ found shelter from generation to generation in _Macedonian_ hearts only...In the same towns and villages, the priests that receive salary from the Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those that receive salary from the Serbian Metropolitan office call themselves Serbians...Besides, the _Macedonians_ were always allies and participants both in the liberation of the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians....From all that has been previously mentioned, I dare say that the _Macedonians_ have a one hundred percent right to autonomy and not to being subjected to dismembering among the Greeks, the Serbs and Bulgarians. Disregarding this fact, the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian governments, aiming to extend their frontiers into _Macedonians_ territory, spare no means and exterminate the _Macedonians_ who refuse to call themselves Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians...The _Macedonian_ people will not reconcile themselves either with those who aspire to deprive them of their language, customs and the natural desire to be free masters of their own house. Hence, only if the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians renounce their aspirations will _Macedonia_ live in a friendly way .... N.D. Dimov, Istoricheskii ocherk Makedonii i makedonskih slavjan - Peterburg, 1913
*June 7, 1913*
To the Governments and the Public of the Allied Balkans States The _Macedonians_ have continually, over the centuries, risen up and fought for independence and freedom, and by their persistent struggle aided the liberation of Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria....More then on hundred thousand _Macedonian_ fighters have fought shoulder to shoulder with the allied armies....Instead of _Macedonia_, celebrated by Alexander of Macedon, consecrated by the Apostle St. Paul, dignified by the activity of the holy brothers SS. Cyril and Methodius....instead of united, integral and free _Macedonia_, European diplomacy, and alongside it, you, too, our brothers - allies and liberators, are tearing us into pieces and defiling our sacred ideals....Remember, brother Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, that you were reborn to start a new life only after 14 bloody wars of Russia against the Ottoman Empire...Remember that a dismembered _Macedonia_ will be an eternal apple of discord among you. Remember that also in the past times of history one after another state perished in the struggle for _Macedonia_ and do not continue the bloody list of the dead in the present time.... _Macedonia_ should be an independent state within its ethnographic, geographical, cultural and historical boundaries, with a government accountable to a national assembly...a national representative body should be established...in the city of Salonika, elected by general vote. Brother allies and liberators! We hope that our words will reach your hearts and minds.... St. Petersburg Signed by the authorized representatives Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg, pp. 52-55
*September 5, 1913*
Dimitrija Chupovski: What did Bulgaria represent for _Macedonia_ The Bucharest Conference of the Balkan states completely destroyed Article 23 of the Berlin Congress which stipulated the introduction of reforms in _Macedonia_ as a self-governing province of Turkey. At the time this stipulation gave wings to the hopes of the _Macedonians_ for the possibility of creating an autonomous _Macedonia_ and proved to be a counter-balance to the stipulations of the Treaty of San Stefano, which defaced _Macedonia_ by its inclusion within the boundaries of Greater Bulgaria. However, regardless of the stipulations of the Berlin Congress, the Treaty of San Stefano constantly instigated the Bulgarians to actions for creating a Greater Bulgaria at the expanse of _Macedonia_ and they continually spent millions of rubles for agitation in _Macedonia_ by opening their own, purely Bulgarian, schools and churches. As a result of this, Bulgaria began regarding itself as the only future liberator of _Macedonia_, comparing its role in the cause of the liberation of _Macedonia_ with the role of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War. We, however, cannot agree at all with such a comparison....Russia was Bulgaria's liberator, and accordingly, to compare its role with the role of Bulgaria in the present war is, at the very least, absurd and ridiculous for our contemporaries, before whose eyes this tragicomedy was being acted. The role of Bulgaria as regards to _Macedonia_ was from the very beginning criminal; it was first to violate...the article of the Berlin Treaty which bound Turkey to introduce reforms in _Macedonia_. Moreover, carrying out unbearable, extremely chauvinist, propaganda among the _Macedonians_ through its Constantinople Patriarchate, Bulgaria was the first to cause rivalry and the introduction of similar propaganda by the Greeks and the Serbs, thus instilling discord among the _Macedonians_. During the whole 30 years of its existence as a state, Bulgaria has carried out anti-_Macedonian_ policy. Flattering and attracting the _Macedonians_ to its side. at the same time it persecuted them with ferocity and hatred and strove to destroy in them any idea of an autonomous _Macedonia_; while doing so, the Bulgarians did not shrink from using any means. Thus, in 1888, the Bulgarian Government destroyed the '_Macedonian_ Literary Society' under the presidency of Georgi Pulevski....Two years later, in that same Sofia, the Bulgarian Government closed the evening schools, specially opened for the emigrant _Macedonian_ craftsman, and the heads of those schools. _Macedonian_ patriots - Damjan Gruev, Delchev, Petre Pop Arsov and many others - were expelled from Bulgaria. In addition, let us consider just those persecution to which the so-called Internal _Macedonian_ Organization was exposed, working on the spiritual revival of _Macedonia_ and its political liberation. Its members were persecuted both by the Bulgarian government and the Exarchate, the local instrument of those governments. In order to paralyze the successes resulting from the activity of the Internal _Macedonian_ Organization, the Bulgarian government formed with _Macedonian_ emigrant a requisite counter-_Macedonian_ organization (made of the dregs(?) of society), known under the name of the Supreme _Macedonian_-Adrianople Committee, the task of which was to trumpet to the whole world that _Macedonia_ is a purely Bulgarian country. Who does not know the shameful role of this Committee shown through its activity on the partition of _Macedonia_ as a whole and of the _Macedonian_ intelligentsia in particular? Guided by the Bulgarian government through its teachers and generals of the type of Mihajlovski and Conchev, this Committee acted against the _Macedonian_ liberation movement and worked with all means on the annexation of _Macedonia_ to Bulgaria. Still more criminal was the role of Bulgaria in this shameful 'liberation' war. Did not Bulgaria hold long negotiations concerning the division of _Macedonia_ with its present occupiers? Did it not, according to the treaty of 29th February 1912 with the Serbs, give to them the whole western section of _Macedonia_ and thus violate its integrity? Did not Bulgaria, which attracted Greece, too, to the Serbo-Bulgarian alliance, start to divide _Macedonia_? Could it not know that the Greeks might join the alliance only because they had in mind the acquisition of the southern section of _Macedonia_? Is not Bulgaria to be blamed for the partition of _Macedonia_, hiding the real aim of the war from the representatives of the _Macedonian_ people, which it had to reckon with. On the contrary, starting the war, it declared to the _Macedonians_ that it was fighting against Turkey alongside the allies for their liberation. Allowing the _Macedonians_ to organize themselves into military units, Bulgaria committed a hunderdfold crime, because it did not allow them to fight against Turkey in their native land, but directed them to Thrace, towards the shore of the Sea of Marmara, under the walls of Adrianople and the trenches of Chataldzha, which weren't needed, except for a bunch of Bulgarian glory-hunters; and the happened at the same time when the allied Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks were conquering _Macedonia_. How can we explain this criminal act of the Bulgarians towards the _Macedonians_, if not by the fear that those same _Macedonians_ with arms in their hands would defend their homeland equally from any encroachments upon its independence? But in fact Bulgaria thus ruined not only _Macedonia_ but also all its future. Shedding now crocodile tears for the lost _Macedonia_, did Bulgaria at the proper time make any attempt to preserve the indivisibility of _Macedonia_, which it likes to call its younger sister? How can some Bulgarian patriots claim that Bulgaria was in respect to _Macedonia_ that biblical mother which appeared before Solomon's court? Would not a mother worthy of setting an example rather prefer to renounce her own son in only he could thus remain intact? However, as we all know, Bulgaria was the first to agree to the partition of _Macedonia_. Why has not Bulgaria up to this moment acted like a real "native mother" with her unselfishness, with motherly generosity towards _Macedonia_, with a project for its autonomy? This is exactly the attitude of Bulgaria which could have ensured the integrity and indivisibility of _Macedonia_, peace among the Balkan peoples and would have preserved the dignity of the "native mother" herself - Bulgaria. What hindered it, having included the item about the autonomy of _Macedonia_ in the treaty, from raising at the proper time the question about the realization of that item? Nobody hinder it at all, but it did not make any attempts itself to raise this question. It did not make this attempt after the end of the first half of the war, when it realized that its allies of yesterday, the Serbs and the Greeks, having occupied _Macedonia_, would not like to leave it. And instead of submitting a project for autonomy, it decided to go to war, in order to gain as great as possible a section of _Macedonia_ for itself. Even following the defeat, when the question was posed not for _Macedonia_ but for Bulgaria itself - I am referring here to the Conference of Bucharest, where Bulgaria was "generously" offered an eighth or tenth part of _Macedonia_ - here, too, it preferred to take that part, and did not follow the example of the biblical mother, renouncing its share of the child. I repeat, the following of this, there are some people again who compare the present position of Bulgaria to the position of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War, with a desire in this way to represent it in the role of the same unselfish liberator as Russia was with regard to Bulgaria itself, refusing to see that the main reason for the misfortunes of _Macedonia_ were precisely the Bulgaria aspiration towards this long tortured land. Dimitrija Chupovski, Makednoskii Golos, pp. 130-133
*July 20, 1916*
Rene Picard: The Autonomy of _Macedonia_ The idea of _Macedonia_ autonomy is familiar to all those who are acquainted with Balkan history and politics. If we asked the Christians of _Macedonia_ they would answer that autonomy was the most desirable solution for them. There is and, in fact, there has always been a _Macedonian_ spirit in _Macedonia_. Geographically, _Macedonia_ has its own unity. Its borders are the following: to the south - Mt. Olympus, the mountains on the north bank of the River Bistrica, Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid; to the west - the Drim from Debar; to the northwest and north - the Shar Mountains, the highlands north of Skopje, the defile of Kumanovo, the mountains that mark the Serbo-Bulgarian frontiers of before 1912; to the east - the Rhodope Mountains. The borderline with Thrace on this side is not clear. The regions of Drama and Kavalla can either be adjoined to _Macedonia_ or separated from it; the plain of Drama is populated mostly by Turks; the town of Kavalla, like all the ports, has a strong Greek colony. To the south, the Chalcidice Peninsula is geographically _Macedonian_, but ethnographically Greek; the line of lakes separates it by a natural border from the rest of _Macedonia_... Les archives du Ministere des affiars etrangeres (Paris). Guerre 1914-1918, Balkans, Dossier generale, pp.158-165.
Dimitar Blagoev on the nationality of the _Macedonians_ (Bulgarian Parliament session) December 10, 1917...D. Blagoev: Subordinate, but independent in their internal affairs. Someone from the left: Don't forget history. D.B.: What history? The one you falsify? (Laughter) We do not recognize such history. We see how things are in reality. It is a fact, gentleman national delegates, that there was a great struggle between the Bulgarian and the Slav peoples in the Balkan peninsula. And that process, described by Mr. Sakszov and supported by others, was not aimed at the unification of the Bulgarian people but at domination over the Slav peoples in the Balkan Peninsula who moved en masse to Byzantium and Asia Minor, and on the other hand, went to the south, towards _Macedonia_
*1918*
Rudolph Archibald Reiss on the _Macedonians_ I said I would rather call your Bulgarophones _Macedonians_. You call these people Bulgarophones, owing to their language which is similar to Bulgarian. But, is it Bulgarian, is the same language spoken in Sofia? No. _Macedonian_ is just as similar to Serbian as it is to Bulgarian. I am not a linguist and I would not allow myself a personal judgment, but disinterested Balaknologist have asserted to me that _Macedonian_ is more similar to Serbian the Bulgarian. It is possible that there are linguists who assert the opposite. But it is a fact that the _Macedonia_ language is spoken neither in Sofia nor in Belgrade. It is an individual Slav language, just as we have the Romansch in Switzerland, spoken in Grisons, apart from Italian. To my mind, the _Macedonian_ can be called neither Bulgarian nor Serb, but simply _Macedonian_. R.A. Reiss, Sur la situation des _Macedonian_es et des musulmans dans les nouvelles provinces grecques. Paris, 1918, pp.6-7.
*January 4, 1919*
Sister Augustine Bewicke on the _Macedonian_ autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika Dear Sir, Please excuse the liberty I take in writing you, it is because the final settlement in the Balkans is of vital interest to the Catholics in these countries. - I have been 33 years in this Mission, the Uniate Catholic Mission, which at the beginning of the Second Balkan War counted about 10,000 Catholics. The Treaty of Bucharest, which divided _Macedonia_ without any regard to justice, was the cause of these poor people being dispersed on account of their Slav language, which was forbidden in Churches and schools. - The Bishop had his residence in Salonika, he has now been in exile more then 3 years, his priests are dispersed, his flock is indeed without pastors, nor do we have any hope of his return to any place under Greek or Serbian rule. - The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in Churches or schools; the inhabitants of _Macedonia_ are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves _Macedonians_, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control. - I whatever way _Macedonia_ might be divided, the people would be always discontented, and would fight again as soon as possible. The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the _Macedonians_, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave _Macedonia_ under people whom the _Macedonians_ hate, and whom they will continually fight... Public Record Office (London) - FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), 1919.
*April 10, 1919*
Protest from the Provisional representative of the IMRO to the Paris Peace Conference To His Excellency, Monsieur Clemanceau, President of the Council: It is duty of my honor, as a delegate of the _Macedonian_ Committees to the High Peace Conference, to protest against the maneuvers of certain suspicious persons who claim to speak in the name of _Macedonia_ and represent some so-called "Executive Committee of the _Macedonian_ Societies". Let me be allowed to indicate that the _Macedonian_ emigrants to Bulgaria have over the past 30 years created quite a small class of _Macedonians_ Bulgarized to such a point that they sacrifice completely the interests of their native land to those of Bulgaria. People who have two homelands are generally suspicious; what to say, on the other hand, about those who do not hesitate to propose as delegates to the Conference two persons such as Aleksandrov and Protogerov, adherents to the Kaiser and Ferdinand, and organizers of the massacres in Nish? Indeed, there is noone else who could more compromise the cause of "Autonomous _Macedonia_" before the Aeropagus of the victors! Hence I have the honor to point out that the only _Macedonian_ Societies free from any Bulgarian political influence, or any other, and representing loyally the whole of _Macedonia_, without distinction of language or religion, are the _Macedonian_ Committees, which starting from the 1893 constituted the IMRO... It is in their name, and by no means in the name of Bulgaria or the Bulgarians, that I have already had the honor to request and now I am requesting again from Your Excellency to grant me an audience so that I may present to You the desires of the _Macedonian_ people... Archimandrite Paul Christoff, General Vicar of Thrace, delegate of the _Macedonian_ Committees. A. Lainovich, Jugoslavika u biblioteci za savremenu - medzhunarodnu dokumentaciju u Parizu - Godishen zbornik na FF, 24-25 (1972-73) pp. 88-89
*July 1919*
Bulgarian Nikola Pushkarov on "The Economic Wealth of _Macedonia_ and its Neighbors" All the neighbors of _Macedonia_ wish her well. Each of them tries through all means to convince the _Macedonians_ of its significance as a savior. When the population of _Macedonia_ doubts the sincerity of the unwanted liberators, they even prove to it the opposite by the sword. And each of the neighbors denies the other the right to be a liberator. The neighbors waged wars in this dispute, they had been fighting among themselves for years to the right of _Macedonia_'s liberators. They exhausted the three neighboring peoples and almost exterminated the _Macedonian_ people. The wars ended, because the peoples realized that the liberation of _Macedonia_ had turned into enormous increase of the capital of the false patriots at the expanse of the peoples ' blood and sweat. Today the exhausted peoples, exasperated by the terrible patriotic deeds of the false patriots, demand payment for the lies, for the terrible lies which threw them into terrible rows. But the false patriots of the neighbors do not despair; they have created special agencies of mercenaries responsible for proving by excusable and inexcusable means how the _Macedonians_ most closely belong to the "homeland" of their patrons. They have called the population of this unfortunate land either "Bulgarophone Greeks", or "_Macedonians_ Slavo-Serbs,: or "brothers beyond Mount Rila."... ...It is the wealth of _Macedonia_ which makes the false patriots of her neighbors mad with "patriotism". Makes them burn with desire to cut off as large as possible a portion of _Macedonia_ for themselves to "liberate" it, i.e. to deprive the _Macedonians_ of the chance of governing themselves. But you must keep your land, _Macedonians_, from the false good wishes of those individuals. They will bring you a new slavery, harsher then the former. Your land is entirely capable of an independent existence. ...Unite around the banner of the autonomy of your homeland, because it is the only banner which you will not be persecuted for not being a Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, but simply _Macedonian_. Bjoletin br. 8 (19.VII.1919) pp.7-8
*November 18, 1919*
Telegram from the General Council of the _Macedonian_ Societies in Switzerland to the Peace Conference in Paris ..Assembled at its plenary session and working in the name of the whole of the _Macedonian_ people, without serving any foreign policy, energetically protest against the clause allowing the _Macedonians_ the right to opt for Bulgarian nationality. We do not want to be made instruments of Bulgarian irredentism in _Macedonia_. _Macedonia_ has never been a part of the present Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgarian diplomats, who bear part of the responsibilities for the misfortunes of the _Macedonian_ population, are by no means qualified to intercede in favor of our cause and have no right to do it... Secretary: Bl. Bojadziev; Vice-Persident: G. Nikolov Lj. Lape, Aktivnosta na Glavniot odbor, p. 190

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## DejaVu

*Where is your sources, all information I posted got sources, your got none.*

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## DejaVu

*We know who we are, but do the surrounding fools know who they are?*

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## Elias2

I can tell most of that stuff is fake because of the rhetoric used would simply not be around in the time periods stated. let me give a few examples;

*Beginning of 12th Century* 
From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand _Macedonian_ celebration in which not only the _Macedonian people_ gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.

- during this time greeks called themselves romans and so did all other peopels of the empire. How did a Russian in 1953 report on an event that happend in the 12th century is laughable.


*1185*
"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the _Macedonians_." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.

- again they didn't call themselves macedonians, that would represent a pagan people in a very strict christian empire.

*Beginning of 13th C.* 
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth _Macedonian_". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.

- again, they didn't call themselves by pagan references

*1246* 
Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other _Macedonian_ cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77

- more of a geographical reference

*1282-1321* 
...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to _Macedonia_. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower _Macedonian_ towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94

- again more of a geographical reference

Every reference of a macedonian people from about 500 to 1700 are lies because all orthodox peopels of the empire (Eastern Roman and Ottoman) called themselves romans. Other macedonian references are obviously geographical, not ethnic.


The lies and propaganda are hidden throughout all your posts. For you to copy paste them in this fasion and such long posts makes me think you save them on your computer and just paste them wherever you want. You actively promote lies? I don't think you're a very smart person.

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## Elias2

Post more propaganda please

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## DejaVu

*And here is your Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.*


*And the Greeks?*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
*Greeks (of Arvanite origin)*
Andreas Miaoulis 
Markos Botsaris 
Laskarina Bouboulina 
Nikolaos Krieziotis 
Xadziyiannis Mexis 
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas 
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto.
Antonios Kriezis 
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment.
Athanasios Miaoulis 
Diomidis Kiriakos 
Theodoros Pangalos 
Petros Voulgaris 
Alexandros Diomidis 
Nikos Engonopoulos 
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens and All Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
*Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria* or *Othon, king of Greece* (Greek: Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, _Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos_; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
*Ioannis Kolettis* (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[_citation needed_] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
Count *Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias* (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: _Giovanni Capo d'Istria_, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a _conte_ (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the _Libro d'Oro_ of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from _Capodistria_, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the _Libro d'Oro_ since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
*Theodore Kavalliotis* (Greek: Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian: _Teodor Kavalioti_, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment. He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
*Rigas Feraios* or *Rigas Velestinlis* (Greek: Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, _Antonios Kyriazis_; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, _Konstantinos_ or _Constantine Rhigas_; Serbian: Рига од Фере, _Riga od Fere_; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment, remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

*Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.*

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## Elias2

Whats your point, any person helping the greek cause was welcome to do so.

I'm going to bed, post more propaganda and I'll get back to you tomorrow. Kalinihta dejavu! ;)

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## iapetoc

dejavu is simple

ask your self, are you a slavic?

then
what time you were slavonized?

you know the answer

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## DejaVu

Source: “The New World: Problems in Political Geography” by Isaiah Bowman, pages 234 and 260, 1921.
Some information about the author of the book:
Isaiah Bowman, AB, Ph. D. (1878 - 1950) was an American geographer. He was educated at Harvard and Yale where he taught from 1905 to 1915, after which time he became the director of the American Geographical Society, a position he held for 20 years from 1915 to 1935. He was chief territorial adviser to President Woodrow Wilson at the Versailles conference and served the Department of State as territorial adviser in World War Two. Some of his more notable works include:
Forest Physiography (1911)
Well-Drilling Methods (1911)
South America (1915)
The Andes of Southern Peru (1916)
The New World-Problems in Political Geography (1921)

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## DejaVu

*Original maps - Colosseum in Rome.*

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## DejaVu

*Rigas the Vlach defines who is a Greek 1797!*




Source: “The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents” by Richard Clogg, 1976.

I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.
When they do not even have a 200 year old history.
They are a modern fabrication of the thinkers and philhellenes of the day, which was materialized in absurdum when the “pure” Greek king from Bavaria, King Othon the Hellene started to rule his kingdom.
Which prior to his rule had never existed in history.
Greece is a modern myth.

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## DejaVu

*The first constitution of Greece 1827.*
The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.
*??? —>* 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
*1) —>* 6. Greeks are:
*2)* *—>* a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
*3)* *—>* b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
*4)* *—>* e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
*NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!*This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are.
Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?
You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from?
Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity.

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## DejaVu

*Macedonia was slavic speaking in the 8th - 10th century.*



Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 419.

All of the Southern Balkans were Slavic speaking areas in the 8th to the 10th century AD, Macedonia and Thessaly was completely Slavic speaking as was Epirus.

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## DejaVu

*Chalkidiki the only Greek speaking part of Ancient Macedonia.*


Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 230.

----------


## iapetoc

DejaVu wake up?
*
do the Albanians in Tettovo considered Fyromakedonians?

YES*

*Are they Slavic*

*NO*

*Then what is your problem with Rigas,
Besides Rigas Has NOTHING TO DO with Greek Laws 
He was a dreamer*
*and since you never Heard Rigas 
it is considered a Balkan rabel not only Greek*
*HE EVEN ASK TURKS TO REVOLT FOR DEMOCRACY*
The man was against God save Sultan
understand that!!!!!
*read His book 1rst and then speak about a Holy man

all Christians and all who helped the revolution and all who came from Greek Father

UNDERSTAND THAT IS THE FIRST STATE THE REVOLT WHEN OTTOMANS WHERE STRONG

AND YOU WERE LICK.... 

When did you fight Turks?????? 
Never simply you claim Bulgarians and Albanian Heroes as Yours

so the maps you are showing to me Show Slavic
ARE YOU A SLAVIC DEJAVU???????* 

Yes or NO

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## DejaVu

*Macedonia on a very rare map by Munster 1570!*



The map was made in 1570 in Basel (Switzerland) by cartographer Sebastian Munster.
Here is a short description about the map; “During the late 16th century, a few map makers created these now highly prized map images, wherein countries and continents were given human or animal forms. Among the earliest examples is this map of Europa by Munster, which appeared in Munster’s Cosmography.”

The lands mentioned are:
HISPANIA, GALLIA, GERMANIA, ITALIA, SICILIA, DANIA, BOHEMIA, VNGARIA, SCLAVONIA, VANDALIA, POLONIA, LITHVANIA, LIVONIA, *MACEDONIA*, BVLGARIA, MOSCOVIA, MOREA, GRAECIA, SCYTHIA, TARTARIA.

----------


## DejaVu

Taken from “Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990″ by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, Published by University of Chicago Press, 1997, page 141.

----------


## DejaVu

*National Geographic who were the christian settlers coming to Aegan Macedonia 1925!*



Taken from the November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.

----------


## DejaVu

Taken from the New York Times, March 24th 1902.



Taken from the New York Times, December 25th 1902.



Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 20, 23 July 1895.



Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 22, 25 July 1895.


Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 26, 30 July 1895.


Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 28, 1 August 1895.


Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 37, 12 August 1895.

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## DejaVu

Taken from the New York Times, October 16th 1903.


Taken from the New York Times, December 6th 1903.


Taken from the New York Times, February 28th 1904.

----------


## DejaVu

*Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!*


Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.

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## DejaVu

*Macedonian one of the Ancient languages of Europe!*









Taken from the book “The Ancient Languages Of Europe” by Roger D. Woodward, 2008, published by Cambridge University Press.

Summary:
This book, derived from the acclaimed Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World’s Ancient Languages, describes the ancient languages of Europe, for the convenience of students and specialists working in that area. Each chapter of the work focuses on an individual language or, in some instances, a set of closely related varieties of a language. Providing a full descriptive presentation, each of these chapters examines the writing system(s), phonology, morphology, syntax and lexicon of that language, and places the language within its proper linguistic and historical context. The volume brings together an international array of scholars, each a leading specialist in ancient language study. While designed primarily for scholars and students of linguistics, this work will prove invaluable to all whose studies take them into the realm of ancient language.

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## DejaVu

Taken from the New York Times, January 20th 1908.


Taken from the New York Times, July 25th 1948!

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## DejaVu

Taken from the New York Times, July 9th 1945!

----------


## DejaVu

*The Kornikovo Gospel, a bilingual Macedonian-Greek manuscript 1852!*


_OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO_


_KE VIDOA GOSPODA._
_I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS_
_I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ_
_I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI_
_I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA_
_I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM_
_BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA_*The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268 )*

*A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia*

*(first half of the 19th century)*

In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia during the first half of the 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic text represent the vernacular, not church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.
The beginning of the Slavic text, with corrections by Pavel Božigropski, was printed in Thessaloniki in 1852–1853, and it has been known in Slavic studies as the “Konikovo Gospel” after Pavel’s home village (nowadays known as Dytikó). The newly found manuscript shows, however, that the translation came into being earlier and in a fashion other than has been assumed. The manuscript also reflects the sound structure of the local dialect better than the printed text did. Moreover, after the Second World War the short printed portion of the Konikovo Gospel has not been at the disposal of the scholarly community – it seems that not a single copy has survived, and no scholarly edition was ever prepared.
The manuscript must originally have contained about 124 pages, 74 of which have been preserved. The Slavic part is a valuable source for research into the dialects and more recent history of Macedonian. The Macedonian language is the closest relative of Bulgarian. It did not acquire a definitive standard language until after World War II.
The Greek text in the manuscript represents a vernacular Gospel tradition that originated in the 17th century. During the 19th century, these vernacular Gospels gradually fell out of use in the church.
The first to take notice of the manuscript in the library of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa was Mika Hakkarainen, who is carrying out research in the library on the basis of an agreement between the Partriarchate and the Academy of Finland’s Centre of Excellence “Ancient and Mediaeval Greek Documents, Archives, and Libraries”, led by Jaakko Frösén. In Helsinki, the manuscript is now being studied by a group that includes, besides Hakkarainen, the scholars Nina Graves, Jouko Lindstedt (research group leader), Juhani Nuorluoto and Max Wahlström (all four from the Department of Slavonic and Baltic Languages and Literatures, University of Helsinki), as well as Maria Basdekis and Martti Leiwo (both from the Department of Classical Philology, University of Helsinki).
The Helsinki research group is preparing a scholarly edition of the Konikovo Gospel in a close collaboration with a Macedonian research group, led by Prof. Ljudmil Spasov from the University of Skopje.
In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

_The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect._

*Publications by the Helsinki group*

[Lindstedt] Lindstet, Jouko. 2006. Za istorijata na Konikovskoto evangelie. Pp. 237–245 in _Predavanja na XXXVIII meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura (Ohrid, 3.VIII–21.VIII 2005 g.)._ Skopje: Univerzitet “Sv. Kiril i Metodij”, Meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura.Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2003. Rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie kako izvor za fonološki opis na egejskite makedonski govori. _Makedonska akademija na naukite i umetnostite, Oddelenie za lingvistika i literaturna nauka_ 28:2, pp. 69–79.Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2005a. Die Konikovo-Evangeliumshandschrift: Ein neuer Fund. Pp. 327–340 in Stjepan Damjanović (ed.), _Drugi Hercigonjin zbornik._ Zagreb: Hrvatska sveučilišna naklada.Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2005b. Nov naod: Rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie. Pp. 233–237 in _XXXI naučna konferencija na XXXVII Meg’unaroden [seminar] za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura (Ohrid, 16–17 avgust 2004 g.)._ Skopje: Univerzitet “Sv. Kiril i Metodij”, Meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura.Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2006. Grafemskite odliki vo rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie. _Makedonski jazik_ 56 (2005), pp. 49–53.

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## DejaVu

From New York Times, February 18th 1962.


From New York Times, November 15th 1946.

----------


## DejaVu

On October 1981 national elections in Greece, PASOK (The Panhellenic Socialist Movement, a centre-left political party) won a landslide victory with 48% of the votes, capturing 173 seats in the Greek Parliament. One of the first things on this new government’s agenda was to initiate a campaign to force the population into believing that there is no Macedonian nation and to generally remove the term Macedonia or Macedonians from use. This is the document they issued to that affect.


*Translation into English:*
HELENIC REPUBLIC Top Secret
MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SECURITY
NATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE
Athens, 16th February, 1982
Number of protocol 6502/7-3042?
INTRODUCTION
a) The Skopians’ activities for the autonomy of Macedonia may be efficiently confronted mainly by wiping out the use of the idiom, in the regions near the borders. This opinion is based on the realizations that also other regions that in older times were center of “Macedonism”, like Kastoria, are no hit by the Skopian propaganda, because there the use of the idiom has been almost wiped out.
b) This element by itself would be enough to exclude any thoughts of repatriation of the P/R (political refugees) who now reside in Yugoslavia and who have been brought up with the “Macedonian idea”, the “Macedonian language and culture”, independently of their participation or not to the organizations SNOF, NOF and activities take for detaching Greek territories during the period 1946-1949
c) As for evidence it is imperative to:
a. The creation of a state institution that will depend from the Prefectures of the regions near the borders, lined with the suitable and specially trained to the “Plot against Macedonia” subject, personnel. This institution will engage itself only with this subject, with the supervision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and will collaborate closely, but in secret with the Security Authorities and all the Public Services (Tax office, Schools, Army, Church, etc)
b. In the public services and especially in the educational institutions the employees who will be in service have to be ignorant of the local idiom.
c. The establishment of special enlightenment seminaries, for all the public service employees and the clergy who are in service in the sensitive region of Macedonia.
d. The establishment of motivations for the obligatory residence of the public servants and other employees, in the quarters of their service (example: payment of the rent, extra pay, etc.)
e. Establishment of the Cultural Association, like “ARISTOTELIS” in Florina and economic help to them, for the realization of events and the publishing of books, newspapers, magazines, etc. And afterwards these will be sent to the Diaspora abroad who has origins from the regions of the senders. This will boost their national sentiment and they will be protected from the anti-Hellenic propaganda that is been practiced by S/M (Slavmacedonians) organizations.
f. Insertion of various obstacles (non-recognition of diplomats, postponement of military service, etc.) for the Greek students who wish to study in Skopje.
g. Marking in each village of persons who due to their kin bounds and their personality influence a large circle of co-villagers and with any means (even with money payments) get close to them and use them properly so they will behave as the fighters of the use of the idiom in their circle. To this direction a very positive and effective role can be that of the Youngerss of the political parties, by the judgement and coordination of the Government, when a between parties agreement will be reached.
h. Recruitment in the Armed Forces, in Police Bodies in the public services and Organisations of employees with origins from Florina region, by exception, and their obligatory location in other areas of the country.
i. The encouragement, by the leadership of the Army of meetings and marriages of Army officers, who are on duty, there and have origins abroad, with women that speak the idiom.
THE CHIEF DIMITRIS KAPELARIS ANT/GOS

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Macedonia was slavic speaking in the 8th - 10th century.*
> 
> 
> 
> Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 419.
> 
> All of the Southern Balkans were Slavic speaking areas in the 8th to the 10th century AD, Macedonia and Thessaly was completely Slavic speaking as was Epirus.


hm, don't want to be rude, but notice that Bulgars are north of Danube in today Romania and that everything bellow Danube is marked as Serbia..
those were proto-Bulgars who were according to history not Slavic but akin to Avars and Huns...
while Bulgars of today are Slavic people.....

so, if Macedonians are to be associated with Serbs, Bulgars or Greeks, they are historically by far closest to being Serbs, linguistically to modern Bulgars who are also according to map you posted essentially just speakers of one dialect of Serbian.., and in wish to be ancient Macedonians they are closest to Greeks....

to be honest, I do think that Ancient Macedonians were originally somewhat related to ancestors of Slavs....I do not think they were Greeks, except for minor elite e.g. royal family....when Macedonian king was not allowed to participate in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Greeks, he didnot claim that Macedonians are Greeks, but he claim that his family is.... I think that clearly sets situation....originally they were not Greeks, but later perhaps they were partially Hellenized...


but I do not think it really matters... you see, ancient Macedonians did not do anything except one silly conquest of the world attempt... they left no cultural impact of their own on world civilization.... culture of ancient Greeks did set key corner stones of modern civilization... 

so, I do not really understand why both parties try to claim to descend from ancient Macedonians....except as right on land issue...it is comparable to trip of Albanians about being Illyrians... Illyrians never had some worthy cultural influence on the world...they were just all the time fighting between themselves as south Slavs still do.... and as Albanians never did....

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## DejaVu

> *Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!*
> 
> 
> Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.


*Comment this one, and ask yourself again what I said before about the Serbs. Serbs got the language from the Macedonians. Fact.*

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## DejaVu

> hm, don't want to be rude, but notice that on that map Bulgars are north of Danube in today Romania and that everything bellow Danube is marked as Serbia..


Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria spoke same language and was same people? Can you speak and understand Bulgarian? So Scandinavia was one country named Scandinavia? Open the history book again and start reading. Dont forget its about language not inhabitants.

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## how yes no 2

> Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria spoke same language, do you understand Bulgarian?


all Slavic languages have large part of vocabulary shared... so basic communication is possible depending on how capable you are to recognize similarity of words... 

strictly speaking Bulgarian language doesnot exist anymore, as according to official history Bulgarians did accept language of Slavic people who lived in areas that they have settled.... 

I am not really convinced though.... as there is also a medieval document "Letopis popa Dukljanina" that claims how south Slavs are Goths with small Slav admixture and how Bulgarians are of same origin and language and did settle massively in the area

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## DejaVu

http://www.spcoluzern.ch/index.php?pg=1666&lang=en
King Dusan proclaimed himself Emperor in 1346.
"In order to legitimise his title he needed to elevate the Serbian Archbishopric to the level of a Patriarchate. This was done on the occasion of a Church-State council held in Skoplje in 1346, on the day of the Feast of the Entrance of Our Lord into Jerusalem. Council was attended by the Bulgarian Patriarch Simeon, Archbishop of Ohrid Nicholas, abbots and elders of the Holy Mountain, as well as those Greek bishops and metropolitans whose dioceses were included in the newly enlarged Serbian state." (Maybe thats why he proclaimed himself Macedonian Tsar?)

*Patriarchate of Peć*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Pe%C4%87

----------


## DejaVu

*Krste Misirkov - Macedonian culture, 1924!*

*Macedonian Culture*
Our confidence, not only in the preservation of our nation but also in the ultimate triumph of the ideal of all Macedonians to achieve independence, is founded as we mentioned earlier not so much on the weakness of our enemy, or on aid from abroad, as on the knowledge of our people and of their past.
Some, however, may ask whether there really exists a Macedonian national culture and a Macedonian history which could be compared to that of the Serbs (read in here “and Bulgarians” - B.K.) and which would serve as foundation for the Macedonian an ideal of an independent Macedonia? Fortunately, we are able to give a positive answer to this: Macedonian national culture and history, being different from those of Serbia and Bulgaria, exist primarily because they have not been submitted to systematic and unbiased study. Both the Serbs and the Bulgarians, with great partiality and self-interest, chose to take from Macedonian culture and history only those aspects which attested to glory of the Serbian or Bulgarian national name, and simply ignored the questions of crucial importance either because they did not concern them or because they ran counter to the national ideals of the Serbian or Bulgarian historical researchers and their fellows.
I said that this was fortunate for Macedonian national culture and history because the Macedonian people were thus armed with an invincible weapon in their battle for human rights land a free national life on an equal footing with the other cultured nations.
Unfortunately, the independent study of Macedonian culture and history was begun only a short while ago by the Macedonians themselves, who, at the end of the last century began to lose faith in the scholars of Belgrade and Sofia with their more or less unanimous contention that the Slavs, during the Middle Ages, were a disorganized and unenlightened people who were spared from Hellenization thanks only to the state which had been first founded by the Turanian Bulgarians and later included in the Serbian state of Nemanjich.
But such assertions were equally erroneous in Belgrade and in Sofia, being backed as they were by the authority of Jagich and Marin Drinov.
We Macedonians have found this to be an error which resulted in a misconception on the part of both the Bulgarians and the Serbs, not only of the history of Macedonia and the Macedonians during the Middle Ages, but also of the history of the Serbs and Bulgarians.
We are able to show that the case was quite the contrary, that it was in fact the Macedonians who were the most active of all the South Slavs, more so even than the Turanian Bulgarians, throughout the entire Middle Ages right up to the conquest of the Balkan Peninsula by the Turks; we can also show that it was the Macedonians who waged the longest and hardest battle for their spiritual and political emancipation during the nineteenth century and the first quarter of the twentieth century.
Our failures, both in the Middle Ages and in more recent times, were the result of circumstances, which had nothing in common with the national awareness, and alleged lack of organization of the Macedonians.
The age long struggle of the Macedonians for cultural advance and national preservation, beginning 400-500 years before the emergence of the Serbian state of Nemanjich and continuing through the rise and decline of this state, taken together with the epic struggles for religious and political freedom, has gone to the making of Macedonia’s national culture and of our national history.

K. Misirkov- Macedonian, Macedonian culture, “Mir”, XXX, 7155, 19.IV.1924, 1.

----------


## DejaVu

*Krste Misirkov - The self-determination of the Macedonians, 1925!*

*The self-determination of the Macedonians*
My article Macedonian Nationalism, which appeared in Mir on 12 March this year, aroused the ire of the paper “Svobodna rech”, which described me as “a man who still does not even know his own nationality”, a “simple-minded thinker who is capable of writing nonsense, of sinking even lower”, and who is “well-known for having once served in the Serbian propaganda service” and for lending his support to the theories of the Belgrade professor Cvjic concerning the existence of a separate Macedonian nationality”. As a result of these slanders against me in “Svobodna rech” many of my own townsfolk turned in fury upon me, and there were even some people who thoughtlessly claimed that they knew that in my student days I had attended assemblies of both the Bulgarian and the Serbian students and that this was why I had been driven out of the Bulgarian assemblies.
Similar senseless accusations were made in “Svobodna rech” and, as was only to be expected, these false rumors spread around Karlovo. This, however, did not greatly disturb me, as would have been clear to anyone who had read my article in “Mir” and who knew anything about my past… I knew full well that I would be attacked for my Macedonian Nationalism and that my article could certainly not be published in “Ilinden”. Nevertheless, although I was far from sure that it would be printed in “Mir”, I wrote out the article and sent it to this journal. And two days after it had appeared, “Svobodna rech” made me out to be a man who does not know his own nationality.
I was fully aware that I will be attacked for my “Macedonian nationalism”, that this article has no chance to be published in “Ilinden”, and I was not even sure that they will print it in “Mir”. I still wrote the article and sent it to the newspaper “Mir”. On the second day after its printing “Svobodna rech” named me a man that does not know his ethnicity.
Unfortunately “Svobodna rech” cannot make me give up my “lowly reasoning”. I still find that Macedonia today is butchered, that Greeks took their best parts, and have chased away the Macedonian population and replaced them with Asiatic new-comers that today are piled up next to the Serbian and Bulgarian border, the same as once the Byzantine Emperors were establishing next to the Bulgarian border military settlements of the Asiatic colonists: Armenians and Paulikians. I also find that if Serbs and Bulgarians do not find peace, and Macedonians are not included in voluntary cooperation with both Bulgarians and Serbs for safeguarding against the Greek wave that slowly, but surely moves from south toward north, all of us: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians will drown in the non-Slavic see that surrounds us from all sides. I think that only in agreement and cooperation between Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians is the salvation for all of us. Serbs and Bulgarians were fighting, Greeks and Romanians were profiting: they lost Macedonia, Trace and Dobrudza.
The most important condition for a cooperation between Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians, however, is the freedom of self-determination of Macedonians. And that is why, regarding this last issue, I emphasized the principle of the Macedonian patriotism and nationalism, as a fully neutral and satisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike; but for now it is more correct to say that it is equally unsatisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
Since it is primarily us Macedonians that are suffering from the Serb-Bulgarian conflict, it is our duty to search for means and ways of resolving that conflict. That is forcing us “to know” up to the current day our nationality and to tell both Serbs and Bulgarians: forget about your big-Serb and big-Bulgarian ideas, give up enforcing your nationalism and patriotism on us, since it basically is putting your interests up front instead of ours. Let us have our own understanding for our relations toward you and your conflict about us and our fatherland, as well as for the means that will bring us to a general South Slav benefit. Let us have our own Macedonian national feelings and to create Macedonian culture, as we did that during the ages when our fatherland was not part of the same state with yours.
As Macedonians we will be more useful for all: for Macedonia, for Bulgaria and for Serbia and in general for the whole South Slav community, than as Bulgarians and Serbs.
As a Bulgarian I would have said long time ago: What Macedonia! It is good for me here too. I don’t need to think for what is already lost. But as Macedonian, in Bulgaria I feel as in a foreign land, although between brothers, I’m not at home, in my fatherland. My fatherland is there, where I have been born and where I should leave my bones, where my son should go at least, if I am not allowed to go myself.
The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves been assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian stand point of view.
Uncompromising and unlimited love toward Macedonia, the constant thinking and working for the interests of Macedonia and the full conservativism in the manifestations of the Macedonian national spirit: the language, the national poetry, mentality and customs – those are the main characteristics of the Macedonian nationalism, demonstrated through “lowly reasonings of a man that still does not know his nationality”.
But we are not egoists. We don’t think only about ourselves. We are ready to make a good service to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but only if that service is voluntary and not forced.
How we can serve Serbs: we will all die, and we will not let the Greek foot to cross the current border of the Serb and Bulgarian Macedonia. But we will do that as Macedonians, and not as Serbs. *We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks*. *There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.*
That is the Macedonian national feeling, which is the historic call of every Macedonian that can be fulfilled only as a free and equal citizen of Yugoslavia, allowed to think and feel and talk and act as Macedonian.

K. Misirkov: The self-determination of Macedonians, “Mir”, 7427, 25. III 1925, 1.

----------


## DejaVu

*Krste Misirkov - Macedonian nationalism, 1925!*

*Macedonian Nationalism* 
We, the Macedonian intelligentsia, undoubtedly bear the greatest responsibility for the situation facing our country today. There are, however, certain extenuating circumstances which might justify us in the eyes of our unfortunate fellow-countrymen, especially those who have been driven from their homes and are now forced to wander, unwelcome and unwanted, in various part’s of Bulgaria.
For a full thirty years the Macedonians have been waging a heroic battle to release themselves from the yoke of Turkey. But at the same time the foreign propagandists have been infecting our country and demoralizing part of the population. The Macedonian intel-ligentsia have largely devoted themselves to revolutionary activity; but there have been some who have found other ways possibly no less important than that of the revolutionary struggle to ensure the success of Macedonia’s endeavors.
My book On the Macedonian Matters, published in 1903 in Sofia, and my article On the Importance of the Moravian or Resavian Dialects for the Historical Ethnography of the Balkan Peninsula, have shown that some of the Macedonian intellectuals are seeking and have found, another way of fighting, i.e. an independent Macedonian scientific way of thinking and a Macedonian national Consciousness.
I do not regret having declared myself in favor of Macedonian separatism twenty-eight years ago. Separatism was for me, and remains, the only way out, the best means by which the Macedonian intelligentsia could pay back and continue to repay their debt towards their people.
In 1912, when I was asked by my fellow villagers what should be done if our village remained under Greek control, I answered: no matter under whose control this village may remain, you will stay where you are, you shall not move anywhere.
Maybe from the great-Bulgarian point of view my advice was not sufficiently patriotic, but from the Macedonian point of view this was the only proper advice.
But when the Greeks forced many Macedonians to flee to Bulgaria I should, as a Bulgarian, have been glad that the Bulgarian people had lost their land just as long as they had been spared from Hellenization.
But I am not glad that they were forced to move. Nor can I look at this question through the eyes of Mr. Mih. Madzharov (one of the editors of Mir B.K.) who says that the underground and the city industry of Bulgaria benefited from the arrival of the refugees.
Here my Macedonian patriotism overcomes my Bulgarian patriotism. The Macedonians are necessary to Macedonia; it is only with the Macedonians that Macedonia can belong to the Macedonians, never without them.
The Macedonians should either remain where they are and let the devil take care of them if he likes or, if it is their fate to be forced to move, they should move from one part of Macedonia to another, but this should still be Macedonia and not Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece. If they are driven out of the Greek part of Macedonia, the Macedonians should move into the Serbian part of Macedonia and form military settlements to await the day when they might return to their homes.
You may say that a Bulgarian cannot reason like this. Yes, but a Macedonian can and should reason like this.
I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all… I am a Macedonian, I have a Macedonian’s consciousness, and so I have my own Macedonian view of the past, present, and future of my country and of all the South Slavs; and so I should like them to consult us, the Macedonians, about all the questions concerning us and our neighbors, and not have everything end merely with agreements between Bulgaria and Serbia about us - but without us …
Note: This article was written after an agreement signed between Greece and Bulgaria in 1923, according to which a great number of Aegean Macedonians would be turned out of their homes and driven into Bulgaria during winter, under the worst possible conditions, when the Bulgarians had not made even the most rudimentary preparations for receiving, housing, and feeding tens and even hundreds of thousands of Macedonian refugees.

K. Misirkov: Macedonian Nationalism, “Mir”, 7427, 12. III 1925, 1.

----------


## iapetoc

so Dejavu

*you became Makedonian at 800 AD by geografical name of area*

*I was born Makedonian by blood in the area that took name by my people*

*your bondage is by land name*

*My bondage is by blood name*

I have nothing against slavic
I have have friends in Bulgaria, have friends in Fyrom, have friends in Serbia,
they are slavic

in the time you are showing the map *we were here under slavian occupation* of either Dusan or Simeon or Samuel

*But we Never change Languge or nationality*

*understand that
*
you are a Slavo-Makedonian that has nation birth at 8th century

I am Makedonian that has nation birthay at 8th century BC

I still speak different with south-central Greeks
Ι still use accusative instead of possessive
I still end the words with different ends
I still don't speak the modern 'koine' municipal language
I still don't speak when I go to Athens with my own dialect
but I force them to speak my language Here
we still have different sounds of L and R and T and A
as also Cretans do
But that is not a difference of language as you claim
Hesychius says the same about ancient Makedonians

now keep your land and name your nationality
*cause 1500 years we did not became slavic why today?*
you cant make me a slavic 
I know my family from 1600 AD when we left old village to the new
and we were here and never slavic

*nobody has the right to make me something different than what i am


you follow Dusan a foreigner, the king of Serbia
I resist Dusan

For you Dusan is Great
For me the Makedonian it was a Slavic invader 

we are not the same understand that.

we always had differences with peloponese and atheneans, even today we speak different, but we were and we are all greeks,

I am a Greco-Makedonian
You are a Slavo-Makedonian* (if you are)


english Fat
con/polis Greek Pachos παχος
modern Greek Lipos λιπος
Thessalian Ligda λιγδα
GR Makedonian Χιngki Ξιγκι

if I say xingki in athens they laugh

as I laugh when they say kalamaki in North

----------


## Garrick

Deja Vu


I will give one example appropriation of Serbian historical figures what is happening since the Communists in Macedonia (FYROM) came to power ie. from 1945.
*
_______
Marko Kraljevic*

ARTICLE
from the
*Encyclopædia Britannica*


Get involved Share 

*www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic*

*Marko Kraljević**,* (b. _c._ 1335—d. May 17, 1395, Rovine, Walachia [now in Romania]), *Serbian king* (1371–95) *of a realm centred in what is now Macedonia* and a hero in the literature and traditions of the South Slavic peoples.


*Marko Kraljević* (“Mark, the King’s Son”) was a *member of the Mrnjavčević family*, which some sources suggest had Herzegovinian origins. *Marko’s father, Vukašin, was king of the southern Serbian lands whose capital was Prilep* (now in Macedonia). When Vukašin was slain in battle with the Turks in 1*371, Marko succeeded him as king but as a vassal to the Ottoman sultan. Marko is known to have completed a monastery at Sušica, near Skopje* (Maced.), and to have died fighting at the Battle of Rovine (1395) during a war between the Turks and the Walachian prince Mircea the Old, but otherwise his life is sparsely documented. More colourful details have been preserved in Serbian ballads and epic poetry, as well as in various Balkan folk songs. Joyous, just, strong, incredibly brave, and chivalrous to a fault, Marko is portrayed as an implacable foe of the Turks, a prodigious drinker of wine, and inseparable from his horse, Šarac.



But you can see Macedonian literature, sites and blogs, one example:

ladnameana.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post.html

*Крале Марко* (околу 1335 - 17 мај 1395) бил Македонски
крал што владеел во големиот дел од Македонија пред повеќевековната власт на турските султани и станал најпознат јунак на епското народно творештво не само на Македонците, туку и пошироко.



In Macedonia (FYROM) since the Communists people learn that Kraljevic Marko is Krale Marko and that he was a Macedonian. Never mind that this is not true.



When I talk to people in Macedonia (FYROM) about this and similar appropriation of Serbian kings, heroes, wise men, and so on. I get answers all to know that they are Serbs and the problem of usurping is the policy.

Deja Vu, you can produce the hundreds of pages of posts, believe me, in good faith I say, *no policy can appropriate the history of others, neither Greeks nor Serbs, neither Greek nor Serbian historical figures*.

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## DejaVu

Kral or Kralj was not used by Macedonians, only Tsar. (Krali or Krale Marko)
If anyone are claiming something then there must be a source. No source then its irrelevant.
*Notice:* Marko Mrnjavčević not Marko Kraljević.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko
According to the local legends, Marko's mother was Evrosiya (Евросия), sister of the Bulgarian voivoda Momchil, who ruled territories in the Rhodope Mountains.

*Serbian Kings got mixed heritage, partly Bulgarian.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...timirovi%C4%87 



 
*The Sclavenes lived in Serbian land by early 500 A.D. (No Serbs before 500 A.D.)*


*The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th–8th centuries*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae




_Sklavinia(i)_ (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: _SCLAVINIAE_) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name _Sclaveni_, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The _Sclaviniae_ of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:
The *Serbs* became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (_hypekooi_) and eventually became independent.The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of *Bulgarians*.

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## DejaVu

> so Dejavu
> 
> *you became Makedonian at 800 AD by geografical name of area*
> 
> *I was born Makedonian by blood in the area that took name by my people*
> 
> *your bondage is by land name*
> 
> *My bondage is by blood name*
> ...


One Word: *PARANOIA*

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## DejaVu

*European Union - All unite for peace.*

----------


## how yes no 2

> I am a Greco-Makedonian
> You are a Slavo-Makedonian [/B](if you are)


yes, but it may happen that two of you are genetic cousins...
so who would be right than? and would it matter?

----------


## Garrick

> Kral or Kralj was not used by Macedonians, only Tsar. (Krali or Krale Marko)
> If anyone are claiming something then there must be a source. No source then its irrelevant.


DejaVu
That is the problem that Macedonians Serbian king Marko Kraljevic (as Mark Prince) posing as Macedonians named Marko Krale. 

And not only him, I can give you a list.

And sources are as many as you like, what it means to ask the Macedonian sites and blogs on Eupedia in Cyrillic. 

Here is just an example of another site (who knows Macedonian can find as he want):

www.panoptikum.com.mk/2009-11-08-15-10-52/koreni-senki-odeci/853-2010-04-17-20-25-28.html

За Марко Крале се смета дека е една од најконтроверзните личности во македонската средновековна историја. 


It really makes no sense, I say there is no such policy that something can justify.

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## iapetoc

How yes no

it is not that easy
maybe a part, a small percentage

but we The Greeks-Makedonians never went so up to Skopje
never, they were the Paeonians mostly Allies
later with roman byzantine and ottoman maybe
But it is most obvius that they came when slavic Kingdoms were strong, very strong that occupied half Greece,
we know that the land of Bardar was never ours
did you ever hear 1 Greek to say Skopje was Greek????
no
simply a treaty when we were small country and nation and with no national allies,
(we had some protection from Some Powers, I dont deny)

that has to do with Turkish land when they were leaving,
that treaty is only in pappers
besides Germans and Austrian are relatives are they 1 country? No
then why to make a country that has bad memmories,
leave my brothers the south Greeks, and unite with Slavic-Makedonians (if they are my brothers)
whose Heroes are my enemies,
Understand that, we Became different,
Albanians and Greeks have almost same DNA in a Big %
are we the same nation?
no thousands years before we change or cut,
with south italy we are same also genetic, are we same nation today?
with Turks in west minor asia and Pontus black sea have 50% same DNA and also history and nationality until 1923,
but today we cut, they are other nation,
in earlier times when seljuk turks came 
they went to Taursus, the first islamization area
so in Greek when a man is turning to islam we dont say he became muslim, we say he became Turk (Taursus religion)
that is a cut of nationality, a schisma, an expel,
probably with Slavomakedonians there is a small DNA relations, wich became bigger at 1948 and 1916-1920 with exchanges and exiles and immigrations,
but today we are tottaly different,
For example Dejavu's Hero Yane Sandasky for me he was a famous fighter rabel etc, but he hunt my people,
how can i consider him a Hero of my own,


How Yes NO 
look at that map


a stupid ruler named Makedonia today Bulgaria

does that make a sense?

so by that map today Bulgarians can claim that they are the Makedonians

does that make sence???

tomorrow a politician may change name of Frieshland to Austria, will you change nationality, in papers yes, but not in soul, or blood,
the same is here,
if I write more about my village history then Dejavu will keep spaming
so i stop here

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## iapetoc

Besides European Union accepts the different nationalities, and Languages,

and about Paranoia DejaVu 
thank you
*look at your own Paranoia and keep spamming mania,*

thank you I will not Buy 
I am a poor original Makedonian Who was Converted To Christianity and today I try to expel it

I was never Slavonized or became Turkish, or muslim

for that I have to ask you Name your Nationality First By Blood and After by Land

*Besides ALL SERBIAN GREEKS BULGARIANS AND ALBANIANS ARE FAKE TO YOU*

*one WORD LUNATIC*

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## LeBrok

> yes, but it may happen that two of you are genetic cousins...
> so who would be right than? and would it matter?


Lol, it would be funny if iapetoc tested slavic R1a or G2a.
I would love to see his faces when he gets the news. :)

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## iapetoc

hahaha
I am G2a3 
or G2a2, i will find tomorrow the results

What are trying to do people, I am Proud for What I AM

----------


## Elias2

> *We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks*. *There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.*
> 
> *European Union - All unite for peace.
> 
> *


I find these two posts amusing and contradictory  :Good Job: 


When you become a new country like FYROM did in 1991, you don't come off the start of your independence with land claims against bulgaria and greece, two of your neighbours, a civil war with albanians and call serbs a fake country. You only look for trouble, and its not surprising that FYROM is also the poorest country in the region either, even behind albania where they have mobsters ruling that country. Skopje is using the age old political trick of pushing nationalism sentiment to avoid getting attention on the real problems on FYROM, the economy. The more poor a country is the more nationalism you see eminating from it, the same goes with albania or anyone else.

You don't need a PH.D to know the ancient macedons were greeks, you just need to look at their accomplishments and what they were pushing to shape the world at the time, it was the hellenic idea, not a slavic idea which were not even in the balkans at the time.

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## iapetoc

dejavu 

slavic people enter at 600 AD
since then they have a home country in balkans, 
we were at the Greek Makedonia from 800 BC 1500 Before of you,
we never went to Skopje or even the Natural border Iron Gates of Axios river (Bardar demir kapi) only a few kilometres from Ευγελεια (Gevgelija) but who cares, for few km

the only one that can say that we took their lands is the Paeonians the Bithyni the Vrygians (Phrygians) and the Pieri people,
Besides ancient makedonians use same sound and tones with Vrygians and have a rich common vocabulary (isotones) (hesychius of alexandria)
all these tribes were ancient Thracians,
*are you a Thracian???*

but the Paeoni took place in olympic games from 330 BC
and have a statue at Olympia

another nation was The Bardari Huns that were settled in Αμφαξίτις (today Skopje valley) before the famous slavic invasions and Bulgarian

Besites the 1rst Greeks that settled in today Greek Makedonia was the Bottiaioi (βοττιαιοι) ατ 1100 BC from crete,

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## DejaVu

*Besides ALL SERBIAN GREEKS BULGARIANS AND ALBANIANS ARE FAKE TO YOU*

*For me they are because of claiming wrong history.*
*If I ruled I would not recognize any of those countries (if they dont accept the real history).*

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## Regulus

> I find these two posts amusing and contradictory 
> 
> 
> When you become a new country like FYROM did in 1991, you don't come off the start of your independence with land claims against bulgaria and greece, two of your neighbours, a civil war with albanians and call serbs a fake country. You only look for trouble, and its not surprising that FYROM is also the poorest country in the region either, even behind albania where they have mobsters ruling that country. Skopje is using the age old political trick of pushing nationalism sentiment to avoid getting attention on the real problems on FYROM, the economy. The more poor a country is the more nationalism you see eminating from it, the same goes with albania or anyone else.
> 
> You don't need a PH.D to know the ancient macedons were greeks, you just need to look at their accomplishments and what they were pushing to shape the world at the time, it was the hellenic idea, not a slavic idea which were not even in the balkans at the time.


Well said, throughout.

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## DejaVu

*The Greek History. Continuity of fakness.*

*And here is your Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.*


*And the Greeks?*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
*Greeks (of Arvanite origin)*
Andreas Miaoulis 
Markos Botsaris 
Laskarina Bouboulina 
Nikolaos Krieziotis 
Xadziyiannis Mexis 
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas 
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto.
Antonios Kriezis 
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment.
Athanasios Miaoulis 
Diomidis Kiriakos 
Theodoros Pangalos 
Petros Voulgaris 
Alexandros Diomidis 
Nikos Engonopoulos 
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens and All Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
*Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria* or *Othon, king of Greece* (Greek: Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, _Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos_; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
*Ioannis Kolettis* (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[_citation needed_] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
Count *Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias* (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: _Giovanni Capo d'Istria_, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a _conte_ (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the _Libro d'Oro_ of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from _Capodistria_, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the _Libro d'Oro_ since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
*Theodore Kavalliotis* (Greek: Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian: _Teodor Kavalioti_, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment. He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
*Rigas Feraios* or *Rigas Velestinlis* (Greek: Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, _Antonios Kyriazis_; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, _Konstantinos_ or _Constantine Rhigas_; Serbian: Рига од Фере, _Riga od Fere_; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment, remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

*Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.*

----------


## DejaVu

*The Greek Europeans?*

Ann Hum Biol. 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

*Abstract*
Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. *Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.*

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract.*
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa. 


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
*HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.*
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/

----------


## DejaVu

*Yavanas Not the Greeks.*
*http://satyavidya.com/yavanas.htm*

*Yavanas are often thought to have been Greeks by Western scholars. However, their existance does not seem that important in the ancient world, and there are many factors that show them as non-Greeks.
*
For a start, we note Kala-yavana, the "Dark Yavana" of the Mahabharata, who fought with Duryodhana. Whilst it may refer to his dark powers, it is possible this Dark-Yavana is of dark complexion, and perhaps pertaining to Africa - or ancient Egypt.

The two dates for Krishna are 3000BC and no later than 1500BC. So, it is less likely to be that Yavanas are the Greeks.

Moreover, Panini refers to the Yavanas around 600BC, or perhaps earlier. They appear to be related to the Kambojas, since he mentions they both were condemned to shave their heads. It shows them as related peoples. The Puranas make them decendants of the Turvashas, peoples of South-Western India.

This shows that the Yavanas were peoples that shaved their heads. It was hence, not the ancient Greeks. But, we do know for a fact, that the ancient Egyptians - an ancient culture existing at the same time as the Vedic and a Sister-culture - the Rulers shaved their heads and wore wigs, whilst the priests also shaved their heads!

We also note the Egyptians called themselves as Kam peoples, which perhaps has some relation to the Khambojas, and therefore, the Yavanas. Kam meant black - cognate to the later Kaal of the Hindus, meaning the same. The term Kala-yavana also hence comes to mind.

Are the Egyptians the Yavanas mentioned in the early Indian texts?

If so, the connection in the ancient city of Alexandria, in which Hindu and Western contact were made, could account for the famed Yavanacharya, the great Yavana-astrologer who studied Vedic astrology! He could have been an Egyptian from this region. Takshashila, in Western India, which had existed from 700BC was a University province, also attracted students from Greece and Persia, so the scholar tells us. But, what about Greece? Could not have an earlier connection between the Hindu and Egyptian schools have arisen?

Egyptians are more likely to have, and had a closer and esoteric cultural links with the Vedic than the Greeks did, and from earlier times.

The British scholar is possessed about having Greeks in India since god knows when, but does not mention the Egyptian connections with India! It is hence much more likely that the Egyptians were the Yavana peoples, referred to in Mahabharata and Ramayana, as Vedic peoples.

The Egyptians, as noted were much closer than the Greeks, and had closer relations. The land of the dead was called Manu - the same as the Vedic forefather and name for Yama, the god of the deceased, who was formally Manu.

There are other things. The Egyptian word for Pyramid was 'Mer'. Meru is the name of the pyramidal architectual style the Hindus build their temples after. Meru is the abode of Svargaloka (Heaven) in the Himalayas, and hence all temples are built to resemble Meru in this style. The Greeks did not build in such styles.

The Egyptian Sun and Supreme God is Ra, and is similar to Ram (Raam), the ancient Vedic Sun-God and avatara. Ram itself, was probably a much earlier term. Interestingly also, the syllable "Ram" (short 'a', not as aa in Raam), is mentioned (Brihadaranyaka Up.V.12) by Yajnavalkya as the syllable for Prana, relating to Food. Now, the Manipura Chakra has Ram (Rang, the bija-mantric form) as it's mantra, and relates to the Digestive system, thus food. Manipura is also the City of Gemstones chakra, relating to Delight or Bliss, which comes from Ram (pleasure, bliss).

Ram as the basis of Raam, also means the same - delight or bliss, and here as the Fire-chakra, relates to the Fire of the Sun, and hence an ancient Vedic term for the Sun as Ra, Ram or Raam. Ra also means 'To Rule' in Sanskrit.

It appears Raam as the Supreme God, must have come from a Vaishnava influence in India. Hence, the Egyptians as Yavanas, must have had a Brighu or Bhargava influence through the ancient S.Indian Sri-Vaishnava tradition - which also uses symbols, not unlike the pictographs of ancient Egypt.

To recollect, Yavana means both "fast moving" and "youthful". It is hence also related to the Bhargava seers, through Chyavana Bhargava (also called Atharvan), whose name is not only close to Yavana, but also in the Rig Veda, has his youth restored to him by the Ashwin gods!

This links the Atharvans or mystical Bhargava sages, known to practice abhichara or mysticism, with the Yavana peoples also - at least as their Gurus. It is known the Egyptians had Bhargava seers, for their Venus-based astrology and architecture;- the "Meru" or Pyramidal style of architecture in India (and indeed Vastu or architecture itself), was founded by Ushana Kavya (Asuramaya, 'Guru of the Demons'), of whom was known as Imenhotep in Egypt. Here we also link Ra, Rama and the Sri Vaishnavas*.

Interestingly, in Rig Veda, King Sudas is called "Paijavana" (VII.18.21-25), 'Son of Pijavana'. Pijavana means also (like Yavana), 'one who speeds' or a fast mover. Yavana is hence here, an adaptation of Javana, and a Vedic term referring to any great monarch, or peoples that migrated fast defeating others, or were driven from India. In this sense, the Yavanas as Egyptians, could be such a peoples, that were driven from India in Vedic times - as most certainly seems to be the case.

Here however, we see that Yavana is a term that began in India itself, for the Vedic Aryans themselves - not foreigners! But, they do appear as peoples related to ancient Indians, or Vedic Indians - which predates the Greeks, so again, points to Egypt.

In regards to the Egyptian embalming practice, we also link this with the Bhargava Ruler, King Vena, brother of Asuramaya (Imenhotep). A materialistic King, and whom Venus is named after in Rome - Vena's body was said to have been preserved as immortal by his mother, through various practices. Later, the Seers rubbed his legs, and from it were born Nishada and Prithu (King of whom the earth was so named).

Another King - Nimi of the Videha or East-Indian solar dynasty, also had his body immortalised through ancient practices. Later Videha Royals - such as Buddha, for example - built funery mounds (Stupas), which also show the idea of ancient Tombs.

Many Vedic demons as Shambara, as noted in Rig Veda, also resemble the Egyptians, as the Rig Veda criticizes them for hiding their wealth in mountains (rock-cut tombs?). The later E.Indian Ahom ruler also build Pyramidal burial mounds.

Indian texts also describe the Yavanas as great Astrologers and Vimana-makers (makers of flying vehicles), which cannot be the Greeks. But - could very well be the Egyptians - of whom were more or less a Vedic Colony or Centre to the West - and the forefathers and teachers of the Greeks, as is well-known!

Many have also stated that the abode of Asuramaya (Ushanas Kavya, Imenhotep) as Romakapura in the texts to be Rome, and the Raumyas to be Romans. However - could it not refer to the Rama or Ra-worshipping Egyptians? Raumyas referring to "people of Ra"? 

It would furthur equate Egypt as a Western Vedic Centre of ancient times, and also equate them as being the Yavanas, of great astrological fame and renoun.
It is curious that Manu mentions the peoples or tribes of Asia - Shakas (Schthians), Chinas (Chinese), Kiratas (Tibetans and peoples of Central Asia), Pahlavas (Persians) - but to equate the Yavanas he mentions as Greeks, does not conform! Why are the Greeks the only significance to Hindus and mentioned with Asian tribes?

It is more likely they were the closer-related and closer culture-sharing Egyptians - just as Kirata (Tibetan) and China (Chinese and E.Asian) peoples he mentions, are well-known to have (also) shared Vedic cultural relationships, and the Chinese (like the Egyptians, or "Yavanas?"), shared their arts, sciences etc. which they preserved and cherished.

Again - the Greeks and Romans shared a less tightly and uncivilised and hence 'non-Aryan' form of civilisation, compared to the Egyptians or Chinese. I hence beleive them, if a Western peoples, to have been the Egyptians.

There is also more likelihood (since their culture, like China and SE Asia), shared closer terminology, gods and practices with the Vedic peoples - that they are mentioned in the ancient Hindu texts over the Greeks.

The Rig Veda, II.13.8, mentions a demonic king, Narmar, which may perhaps be Narmer, the first Pharoah of ancient Egypt. Vamana Purana mentions a Namar that fought with Maheshasura against the Goddess. This is only a possibility, but perhaps also, an historical mention.

This again links them with the E.Indian influence into SE Asia and China, which was previously noted, through Raja Nimi and the Solar Dynasty. Perhaps the Yavanas, or some of them, also became Buddhists like the Chinese and SE Asians did - and hence were referred to as Yavanas still around pre-Ashoka times as this also. Their Indic influences would then be contemporary with other lands as China and SE Asia, as Manu mentions.

Yavana then, perhaps meant them as "Western Vedic People", and Egypt was a deliberate "Western Takshashila" type centre set up, echoed later by the Greco-Roman influences (or borrowings) in Alexandria. Manu etc. hence mention them along with Asian peoples, as conforming to Vedic rights, although in the West - unlike (other) Western peoples.

Here, we speculate. However, as we see, there is little, - infact no evidence, that shows the Greeks as Yavanas. However, it makes Egypt appear closer to Indian and Vedic Dharma, and as Romakapura of the texts (remembering that Asuramaya who lived there founded Pyramidal Architecture - not a charactoristic of Rome).

----------


## iapetoc

οι υιοι Ιαυαν κατωκηασν τας Νησους εν Θαρσεις

(the sons of Iayan-Iavan dwell the Islands in Thracians)
later known as Ioninic- Ionians - Yunan 

the sons of Iayan 
Helleisas ->Hellenes or Helleians or Heleliras 
Tharseis -> Thracians
Kitteim ????? 
Dodanim - Dodona ancient Greek famous oracle (archegonus proto Greek by Strabo)

keep spreading .........
*
Genesis 10 3-4*

Besides we are not Yavanas
But Yunan or Iayan or Iaian or Ionae - Iones -Ionic


*Iapetus and Japheth*


Besides Iapetus was worshiped in Crete, Arcadia peloponese, Cillikia (taursus) Anchiale
And in Phrygians Before they move to minor asia


Pausanias (8.27.15) writes:
As I have already related, the boundary between Megalopolis and Heraea is at the source of the river Buphagus. The river got its name, they say, from a hero called Buphagus, the son of Iapetus and Thornax. This is what they call her in Laconia also. They also say that Artemis shot Buphagus on Mount Pholoe because he attempted an unholy sin against her godhead. Buphagus is a tributary of the river Alpheus, Thornax is a mountain between Sparta and Sellasia, and Pholoe is a mountain between Arcadia and Elis.


Thank you You just prove another Historical evidence


 *OR EXCEPT SERBIAN ALBANIAN BULGARIAN GREECE, MAYBE THE BIBLE IS ALSO FAKE



*
Oh Olympians Please send the Cure to himOh Zeu please dont punish his Blasphemy
but send Athena to give the man Wisdom

 :Sad 2:  :Sad 2:

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## DejaVu

*Ofcourse you are not Yavanas.*
*The genetics shows you (modern greeks) are sub-saharan.*

----------


## DejaVu

*Bible information.*

*DANIEL 8:20-21*
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right
*20.* The ram which thou sawest having _two_ horns _are_ the kings of Media and Persia.
*21.* And the rough goat _is_ the king of Grecia: and the great horn that _is_ between his eyes _is_ the first king.
*By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.*


http://www.openbible.info/

Acts 16:9 A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us." 

Acts 16:10 When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them. 
Acts 16:12 and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city. 
Acts 18:5 But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 
Acts 19:21 Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome." 
Acts 19:22 Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while. 
Acts 20:1 After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia. 
Acts 20:3 When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia. 
Romans 15:26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem. 
1 Corinthians 16:5 But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia. 
2 Corinthians 1:16 and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea. 
2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia. 
2 Corinthians 7:5 For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside. 
2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia; 
2 Corinthians 9:2 for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them. 
2 Corinthians 11:9 When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so. 
Philippians 4:15 You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only. 
1 Thessalonians 1:7 so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia. 
1 Thessalonians 1:8 For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything. 
1 Thessalonians 4:10 for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

*If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?*



*Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece*

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution. 

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia. 

*Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries/nationalities?* 
*Because they are different nations/nationality since the beginning of existence.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament
The *New Testament* (Greek: Καινὴ Διαθήκη, _Kainē Diathēkē_) is the second major division of the Christian biblical canon, the first such division being the much longer Old Testament.
*The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land at the time of Jesus were* *Aramaic**,* *Koine Greek**, and to a limited extent a colloquial dialect of* *Mishnaic Hebrew**.* All of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the Roman provinces of the Eastern Mediterranean at the time. These books were later translated into other languages, most notably, Latin, Syriac, and Coptic. However, some of the Church Fathers imply or claim that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic. Nevertheless, the Gospel of Matthew known today was composed in Greek and is neither directly dependent upon nor a translation of a text in a Semitic language, though the citation of texts from the Old Testament demonstrates that the author of the Gospel of Matthew did know Hebrew.

*DOES NOT SAY IT WAS WRITTEN BY ANY GREEK (Koine was not exclusive for Greeks only).*

----------


## DejaVu

*Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?*

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians. These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well. 
Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers. Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks. 

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians while the Macedonian Dynasty was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The *Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".*

Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.

----------


## iapetoc

Oh really????

and what geneticks say about You?

*I know
They can't say somethink Because you are a God*

*Only you have the truth and the others are Fake
Even the Book of Genessis is FAKE



oh yeah????

that is byzantine,
Did Ancient Makedonians also speak Greek to comunicate with the regions and provinces that WIll CONQUER ???? 
So you say that Ancient Makedonians 'learn' Greek at 800 BC in order to Comunicate with the Persian Provinces that conquer at 300 BC ............. 
 Maybe Persians Spoke Greek 
wow they left their 'slavic' language which Fyrom speaks, learn Greek to communicate and then 1500 years after they return to their previus language, right???



Absolutely Funny


Hahaha 

Acts 17 read 

in Makedonia Paul
sais that Greeks lived 

it was a separated Region not nation



Tel me something
A Ccretan is dressed different than an Athenean 
what does that mean???
Cretan is Not Greek??????
oh no maybe if paul show a Cretan man then probably Crete was another country

that greece is that Area from Ancienty
Greece is an area the Nation is Hellenes

the Makedonia Is Hellenick not Greek
make that clear



make that clear that is Greece as geografical Area, Sterea Ellada

the nation of Greek is Hellenes
the stupidity of foreign languages name us as Greeks
our Inner Name is Hellenes

and it is not the Greek Republic
But the Hellenic Republic
now do you understand the difference?

The coloured area is Hellas not Greece
Greece is only the red Area + Attica

the people of that area were named Γρεσοι - Gres ->Greek
find out Homer names


Besides Hellanas river is there, 
The Hellenes make games there before Olympia
so the name is after the Ellenes or as we say that time Ellanioi
and later after Olympia Ellenes

*

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## iapetoc

Dejavu tell me something

why Alexander horse was *Vukefalas*
and not *Bolglavata*?

 :Thinking: 

why the city was *Thessalo-niki* (Thessalian Victory)
and not *Thessalo-pobeda* 

why the old capital was *Aiges* = goats
and not *Kozi*

----------


## DejaVu

*Acts 17 Commentary*
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

*Thessalonians*
http://www.christianadulteducation.c...ssalonians.pdf

*Silas in the Bible (Not Greek)*
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm
Silas was a leading member of the first Christian community in Jerusalem and a colleague of Paul. In the epistles 2 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, he is called by a Roman name, Silvanus. He might have been a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37). In Jerusalem he was a prophet who preached (Acts 15:32) and was sent to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas, to convey resolutions adopted at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).

*Grecians - Greeks (Not Greeks)*
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GRECIANS;+GREEKS/
In the Old Testament the word "Grecians" occurs but once (Joel 3 (4):6). For references to Greece in the Old Testament see JAVAN. In the King James Version of the Old Testament Apocrypha "Grecians" and "Greeks" are used without distinction, e.g. 1 Macc 1:10; 6:2; 8:9; 2 Macc 4:15,36. Thus, in 1 Macc 1:1, Alexander the Great is spoken of as king of Greece, and in 1 Macc 1:10 the Macedonian empire is called "the kingdom of the Greeks" (basileia Hellenon). In 2 Macc 13:2 the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies. Reference is made in 2 Macc 6:1 to an aged Athenian who was sent by Antiochus the king charged with the duty of Hellenizing the Jews; in 2 Macc 9:15 Antiochus vows that he will make the Jews equal to the Athenians; in 1 Macc 12 through 14, reference is made to negotiations of Jonathan, the high priest, with the Spartans, whom he calls brethren, seeking the renewal of a treaty of alliance and amity against the Syrians. With the spread of Greek power and influence, everything not specifically Jewish was called Greek; thus in 2 Macc 4:36; 11:2; 3 Macc 3:3,1 *the "Greeks" contrasted with the Jews are simply non-Jews, so called because of the prevalence of Greek institutions and culture, and "Greek" even came to be used in the sense of "anti-Jewish"* (2 Macc 4:10,15; 6:9; 11:24).
In Isa 9:12 the Septuagint reads tous Hellenas, for Pelishtim, "Philistines"; but we are not therefore justified in assuming a racial connection between the Philistines and the Greeks. Further light on the ethnography of the Mediterranean
basin may in time show that there was actually such a connection; but the rendering in question proves nothing, since "the oppressing sword" of Jer 46:16 and 50:16 is likewise rendered in the Septuagint with "the sword of the Greeks" (machaira Hellenike). In all these cases the translators were influenced by the conditions existing in their own day, and were certainly not disclosing obscure relations long forgotten and newly discovered.
In the New Testament, English Versions of the Bible attempts to distinguish between (Hellenes), which is rendered "Greeks," and (Hellenistai), which is rendered "Grecians" or "Grecian Jews," or in the Revised Version, margin "Hellenists," e.g. Acts 6:1; 9:29. These latter were Jews of the Dispersion, who spoke Greek (see HELLENISM; HELLENIST), as distinguished from Palestinian Jews; but since many of the latter also spoke Greek by preference, the distinction could in no sense be absolute. Indeed in Jn 7:35, "the Dispersion among (the Revised Version, margin, Greek "of") the Greeks," can hardly refer to any but "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai), although Hellenes is used, and in Jn 12:20 the "Greeks" (Hellenes) who went up to worship at the feast of the Passover were almost certainly "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai). Thus, while English Versions of the Bible consistently renders Hellenes with "Greeks," we are not by that rendering apprised of the real character of the people so designated. This difficulty is aggravated by the fact, already noted in connection with the Old Testament Apocrypha, that, in consequence of the spread of Hellenism, the term Hellenes was applied not only to such as were of Hellenic descent, but also to all those who had appropriated the language of Greece, as the universal means of communication, and the ideals and customs collectively known as Hellenism. The latter were thus in the strict sense Hellenists, differing from the "Grecians" of English Versions of the Bible only in that they were not of Jewish descent. In other words, Hellenes (except perhaps in Jn 7:35 and 12:20, as noted above) is, in general, equivalent to ta ethne, "Gentiles" (see GENTILES). The various readings of the manuscripts (and hence the difference between the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) in 1 Cor 1:23 well illustrate this. There is consequently much confusion, which it is quite impossible, with our limited knowledge of the facts in particular cases, to clear up. In general, it would seem probable that where "Greeks" are comprehensively contrasted with "Jews," the reference is to "Gentiles," as in Acts 14:1; 17:4; 18:4; 19:10,17; 20:21; Rom 1:16; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:22-24 (the Revised Version (British and American) "Gentiles," representing ethnesin; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11. In Mk 7:26 the woman of Tyre, called "a Greek (the Revised Version, margin "Gentile") a Syrophoenician," was clearly not of Hellenic descent. Whether Titus (Gal 2:3) and the father of Timothy; (Acts 16:1,3) were in the strict sense "Greeks," we have no means of knowing. In Rom 1:14, "I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians," there is an undoubted reference to Greeks strictly so called; possibly, though by no means certainly, the "Greeks" of Acts 21:28, alluding to Trophimus the Ephesian (Acts 21:29), are to be taken in the same sense. References to the Greek language occur in Jn 19:20 (Lk 23:38 is properly omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Acts 21:37; Rev 9:11.
In Acts 11:20 the manuscripts vary between Hellenistas, and Hellenas (the King James Version "Grecians," the Revised Version (British and American) "Greeks"), with the preponderance of authority in favor of the former; but even if one adopts the latter, it is not clear whether true Greeks or Gentiles are intended.
William Arthur Heidel

----------


## DejaVu

*Grecians - Greeks (All non-Jews)*
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GRECIANS;+GREEKS/
In the Old Testament the word "Grecians" occurs but once (Joel 3 (4):6). For references to Greece in the Old Testament see JAVAN. In the King James Version of the *Old Testament Apocrypha "Grecians" and "Greeks" are used without distinction*, e.g. 1 Macc 1:10; 6:2; 8:9; 2 Macc 4:15,36. Thus, in 1 Macc 1:1, Alexander the Great is spoken of as king of Greece, and in 1 Macc 1:10 the Macedonian empire is called "the kingdom of the Greeks" (basileia Hellenon). In 2 Macc 13:2 the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies. Reference is made in 2 Macc 6:1 to an aged Athenian who was sent by Antiochus the king charged with the duty of Hellenizing the Jews; in 2 Macc 9:15 Antiochus vows that he will make the Jews equal to the Athenians; in 1 Macc 12 through 14, reference is made to negotiations of Jonathan, the high priest, with the Spartans, whom he calls brethren, seeking the renewal of a treaty of alliance and amity against the Syrians. With the spread of Greek power and influence, everything not specifically Jewish was called Greek; thus in 2 Macc 4:36; 11:2; 3 Macc 3:3,1 *the "Greeks" contrasted with the Jews are simply non-Jews, so called because of the prevalence of Greek institutions and culture, and "Greek" even came to be used in the sense of "anti-Jewish"* (2 Macc 4:10,15; 6:9; 11:24).
In Isa 9:12 the Septuagint reads tous Hellenas, for Pelishtim, "Philistines"; but we are not therefore justified in assuming a racial connection between the Philistines and the Greeks. Further light on the ethnography of the Mediterranean
basin may in time show that there was actually such a connection; but the rendering in question proves nothing, since "the oppressing sword" of Jer 46:16 and 50:16 is likewise rendered in the Septuagint with "the sword of the Greeks" (machaira Hellenike). In all these cases the translators were influenced by the conditions existing in their own day, and were certainly not disclosing obscure relations long forgotten and newly discovered.
In the New Testament, English Versions of the Bible attempts to distinguish between (Hellenes), which is rendered "Greeks," and (Hellenistai), which is rendered "Grecians" or "Grecian Jews," or in the Revised Version, margin "Hellenists," e.g. Acts 6:1; 9:29. These latter were Jews of the Dispersion, who spoke Greek (see HELLENISM; HELLENIST), as distinguished from Palestinian Jews; but since many of the latter also spoke Greek by preference, the distinction could in no sense be absolute. Indeed in Jn 7:35, "the Dispersion among (the Revised Version, margin, Greek "of") the Greeks," can hardly refer to any but "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai), although Hellenes is used, and in Jn 12:20 the "Greeks" (Hellenes) who went up to worship at the feast of the Passover were almost certainly "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai). Thus, while English Versions of the Bible consistently renders Hellenes with "Greeks," we are not by that rendering apprised of the real character of the people so designated. This difficulty is aggravated by the fact, already noted in connection with the Old Testament Apocrypha, that, in consequence of the spread of Hellenism, *the term Hellenes was applied not only to such as were of Hellenic descent, but also to all those who had appropriated the language of Greece, as the universal means of communication, and the ideals and customs collectively known as Hellenism.* The latter were thus in the strict sense *Hellenists, differing from the "Grecians" of English Versions of the Bible only in that they were not of Jewish descent. In other words, Hellenes* (except perhaps in Jn 7:35 and 12:20, as noted above) is, in general, equivalent to ta ethne, "Gentiles" (see GENTILES). The various readings of the manuscripts (and hence the difference between the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) in 1 Cor 1:23 well illustrate this. There is consequently much confusion, which it is quite impossible, with our limited knowledge of the facts in particular cases, to clear up. In general, it would seem probable that where "Greeks" are comprehensively contrasted with "Jews," the reference is to "Gentiles," as in Acts 14:1; 17:4; 18:4; 19:10,17; 20:21; Rom 1:16; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:22-24 (the Revised Version (British and American) "Gentiles," representing ethnesin; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11. In Mk 7:26 *the woman of Tyre, called "a Greek (the Revised Version, margin "Gentile") a Syrophoenician," was clearly not of Hellenic descent.* Whether Titus (Gal 2:3) and the father of Timothy; (Acts 16:1,3) were in the strict sense "Greeks," we have no means of knowing. In Rom 1:14, "I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians," there is an undoubted reference to Greeks strictly so called; possibly, though by no means certainly, the "Greeks" of Acts 21:28, alluding to Trophimus the Ephesian (Acts 21:29), are to be taken in the same sense. References to the Greek language occur in Jn 19:20 (Lk 23:38 is properly omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Acts 21:37; Rev 9:11.
In Acts 11:20 the manuscripts vary between Hellenistas, and Hellenas (the King James Version "Grecians," the Revised Version (British and American) "Greeks"), with the preponderance of authority in favor of the former; but even if one adopts the latter, it is not clear whether true Greeks or Gentiles are intended.
*William Arthur Heidel*


*Acts 17 Commentary*
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm
*Silas* was a leading member of the first Christian community in Jerusalem and a colleague of Paul. In the epistles 2 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, *he is* *called by a Roman name, Silvanus. He might have been a Roman citizen* (Acts 16:37). In Jerusalem he was a prophet who preached (Acts 15:32) and was sent to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas, to convey resolutions adopted at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GENTILES/
jen'-tilz (goy, plural goyim; ethnos, "people," "nation"): Goy (or Goi) is rendered "Gentiles" in the King James Version in some 30 passages, but much more frequently "heathen," and oftener still, "nation," which latter is the usual rendering in the Revised Version (British and American), *but it, is commonly used for a non-Israelitish people, and thus corresponds to the meaning of Gentiles.*" It occurs, however, in passages referring to the Israelites, as in Gen 12:2; Dt 32:28; Josh 3:17; 4:1; 10:13; 2 Sam 7:23; Isa 1:4; Zeph 2:9, but the word (`am) is the term commonly used for the people of God. In the New Testament ethnos is the word corresponding to goy in the Old Testament and is rendered "Gentiles" by both VSS, while (laos) is the word which corresponds to `am. The King James Version also renders Hellenes, "Gentiles" in six passages (Jn 7:35; Rom 2:9,10; 3:9; 1 Cor 10:32; 12:13), but the Revised Version (British and American) renders "Greeks."
The Gentiles were far less sharply differentiated from the Israelites in Old Testament than in New Testament times. Under Old Testament regulations they were simply non-Israelites, not from the stock of Abraham, but they were not hated or despised for that reason, and were to be treated almost on a plane of equality, except certain tribes in Canaan with regard to whom there were special regulations of non-intercourse. The Gentile stranger enjoyed the hospitality of the Israelite who was commanded to love him (Dt 10:19), to sympathize with him, "For ye know the heart of the stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt" (Ex 23:9 the King James Version). The Kenites were treated almost as brethren, especially the children of Rechab (Jdg 1:16; 5:24; Jer 35). Uriah the Hittite was a trusted warrior of David (2 Sam 11); Ittai the Gittite was captain of David's guard (2 Sam 18:2); Araunah the Jebusite was a respected resident of Jerusalem. The Gentiles had the right of asylum in the cities of refuge, the same as the Israelites (Nu 35:15). They might even possess Israelite slaves (Lev 25:47), and a Gentileservant must not be defrauded of his wage (Dt 24:15). They could inherit in Israel even as late as the exile (Ezek 47:22,23). They were allowed to offer sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem, as is distinctly affirmed by Josephus (BJ, II, xvii, 2-4; Ant, XI, viii, 5; XIII, viii, 2; XVI, ii, 1; XVIII, v, 3; CAp, II, 5), and it is implied in the Levitical law (Lev 22:25). Prayers and sacrifices were to be offered for Gentilerulers (Jer 29:7; Baruch 1:10,11; Ezr 6:10; 1 Macc 7:33; Josephus, BJ, II, x, 4). Gifts might be received from them (2 Macc 5:16; Josephus, Ant, XIII, iii, 4; XVI, vi, 4; BJ, V, xiii, 6; CAp, II, 5).* But as we approach the Christian era the attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles changes, until we find, in New Testament times, the most extreme aversion, scorn and hatred.* They were regarded as unclean, with whom it was unlawful to have any friendly intercourse. They were the enemies of God and His people, to whom the knowledge of God was denied unless they became proselytes, and even then they could not, as in ancient times, be admitted to full fellowship. Jews were forbidden to counsel them, and if they asked about Divine things they were to be cursed. *All children born of mixed marriages were bastards. That is what caused the Jews to be so hated by Greeks and Romans, as we have abundant evidence in the writings of Cicero, Seneca and Tacitus.* Something of this is reflected in the New Testament (Jn 18:28; Acts 10:28; 11:3).
If we inquire what the reason of this change was we shall find it in the conditions of the exiled Jews, who suffered the bitterest treatment at the hands of their Gentile captors and who, after their return and establishment in Judea, were in constant conflict with neighboring tribes and especially with the Greek rulers of Syria. The fierce persecution of Antiochus IV, who attempted to blot out their religion and Hellenize the Jews, and the desperate struggle for independence, created in them a burning patriotism and zeal for their faith which culminated in the rigid exclusiveness we see in later times.
*H. Porter*

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## DejaVu

*Game is over now with your fake understanding of the Bible.*

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## DejaVu

*Serbian falsification of "Tsar Dushans Code"*
*http://www.macedonianspark.com/en/hi...11-09-11-46-06*

*In Skopje in 1349 Stefan Dushan issued its own Code, which, unfortunately, is not preserved in original, but dozen copies were saved and that’s how we get the information about this historic figure.*

Dushan's Code begins with the words "Code of Reverend and in Christ loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan,Serbian ruler, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Vlach, Dalmatian, Arbanas, and many other regions and countries." This is noted in the Zagrebian (Croatian), Ravanician (Serbia), Sofian (Bulgaria) transcript of Dushan's Code. Dushan's Code with Stefan Dusan as a Macedonian king to be find in the book the Lj. Stojanovic: (Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).) Even the famous Edith Durham in her book "High Albania", first edition, printed in the distant 1909 talk about the Macedonians, where she quoted Dushan's Code "Code of Tsar Dusan Macedonian, autocrat of Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, .." (Edith Durham, "High Albania" First published in 1909, page 294. In London Edward Arnold Publishers to the India Office 1909).

*As we can see, King Dusan proclaimed himself for Macedonian king, but not because he was Macedonian, but for someone to proclaim himself a king, or emperor in medieval times had to take the crown of a kingdom that existed previously.* And what kingdom would that be if not the kingdom of Samuel! Knowing that Kosara, daughter of Samuel married DuklaPrince John Vladimir, who was a prisoner at Samuil's royal palace. However, lucky for him, thanks to the love of Kosara, he was pardoned and became son in-law of Samuel, but also part of the family.
*Is there any greater evidence that would challenge the contention of some Bulgarian historians that Samuil’s state was Bulgarian? According to medieval law, the king's crown could be obtained only from the patriarch. When Emperor Dusan governed the whole territory of Macedonia in his state was found two autocephalous Archbishopry, the one of Ohrid and Pech.* Soon Dusan decided to proclaim himself a king. Therefore it was necessary the Pech archdiocese to be declared for patriarchate. It was helped by the Ohrid Archbishop and the TrnovoPatriarch. The both Holy Synods and the Patriarch of Trnovo came, and both of them proclaimed Joannicius II for patriarch, and then the three church dignitaries coronate Dusan in a king. The participation of the Macedonian superior - Ohrid Archbishop was considered as a substitute for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who canceled his attendance in the coronation. Any changes in the Serbian state and church were done with the participation and the blessing of the Macedonian archbishop. 
Whether in this case we should close our eyes when the same Macedonian church today is denied? This historical fact, in the 19th century disturbed the Serbian intelligence, which was in its infancy, that’s why there are many falsifications of the Serbian medieval documents in their re-publishing in the 19th century. 

Mikloshich Franz, who along with Vuk Karadzic for the first time published documents of the medieval Serbian history, in the monumental work "Monumenta Serbica", the title of King Dusan from the Sofian and Ravanic entry is communicated as *"Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Greek King"* (F. Miklošič, Monumenta Serbica, str 154). *But in the transcripts of Dushan's Code clearly states “Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Macedonian King".* From there comes our suspicion, that wherever is mentioned the Macedonian name, Serbian historians and transcribers of the Serbian medieval documents of the 19th century, *the word "Macedonian" where replacing with "Greek" or "Romaic”.* To this we can add the historical fact of King Dusan published in the oldest history of South Slavic peoples" Historia Turcica "(1502) from Petanchich Felix (from Dubrovnik), who was miniaturist and manager of Budim scriptorium and primarily an outstanding diplomat at the court of Matija Korvin and Vladislav II. In "Historia Turcica" is stated that King Dusan is king of the Macedonians and Rascians, in original "Macedonum Rasianorum Caesar" (Historia Turcica (1502), Municipal Library in Nuremberg, 31.2). Petanchich Felix (1455-1517) is considered one of the best turkologyst of all time. *Unfortunately, Tsar Dusan in our history books is presented as the king of the Serbs and Greeks, ie. in the propaganda which our neighbors are serving for our history since the 19th century.* Furthermore, King Volkasin (father of King Mark) and his brother Uglesha in the Synodicon of Tsar Boril (Boril's Synodicon) from the 14th century, is represented as a Macedonian king. I do not know the reason why in our history textbooks do not tell this fact and our children learn that the current Macedonian are pure Slavs, and began to call themselves Macedonians until the 19th century, that we are a new nation and that we, as Slavs, are so close with the Serbs and Bulgarians, perhaps so we can dissolve in their nations.

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## iapetoc

the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies.

dEJAvUUNDERSTAND IT 
mAKEDONIANS WERE NOT GREEKS, THEY WERE HELLENES
A CRETAN IS NOT A GREEK IS A HELLENAS
A CYPRIOT IS NOT A GREEK IS A HELLENAS

IN THAT CYPRIOTS MAKE A VERY GOOD SEPARATION 
HELLADITES AND HELLENES (GREEKS AND HELLENES)

THE TRANSLATION IN OTHER LANGUAGES MAKES EQUAL GREECE AND HELLAS

for example a texan is USA a NYer also , so if i see a texan how i will describe him?
i show an Usaer and i went there ....
or it is better to say i show a Texan and went to Texas and speak to Usaers

in Acts 17 names clearly Hellenidon Hellenon (female male Greeks) the residents,

it is simple, what else you want me to explain you.


*They came to Thessalonica* (See notes and pictures)-* This city was the capital of the province of Macedonia* and had a population of some 200,000. It was a major seaport city and an important commercial center, rivaled only by Corinth in this area of the world. Thessalonica was located on several important trade routes, and it boasted an excellent harbor. *The city was predominantly Greek, even though it was controlled by Rome. Thessalonica was a “free city,”* which meant that it had an elected citizens’ assembly, it could mint its own coins, and it had no Roman garrison within its walls. 
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

*The bible says that Thessaloniki Makedonia was a Hellenick City


besides you wrote a 50 lines to tell me that a woman at tyre was not greek but syrophoenian!!!!
wowowow

acts 17

* 1 When Paul and his companions had passed through *Amphipolis* and *Apollonia*, they came to *Thessalonica*, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing *Greeks* and quite a few prominent women.

10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to *Berea*. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the *Berean* Jews were of more noble character than those in *Thessalonica*, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent *Greek* women and many *Greek* men. 

*THE original says Hellenes not Greeks*

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## iapetoc

Dejavu 
tell me something

*why don't you use your Makedonian alphabet*

and tell about Ptolemy???/ Птоломеј

what was he, a greek an egyptian or hellen

What?
Stephan Dusan a king of Greeks,

*we have him as an invator here 
he was Never Greek*

*Nemanjić
* Vlastimirović.

Following the elevation of members of the dynasty to the status of Emperors in 1346, the title became _Tsar of All Serbs, Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians_. The family crest was a bicephalic argent eagle on a red shield, inherited from the Byzantine Paleologus dynasty.
The House of Nemanjić ruled the Serb lands between c. 1166 and 1371.


*
so he was not Serb, but Makedonian you say!!!*
*
besides in the Greek books He is never mentioned as a Greek or Greek Makedonian, but as a Serbian conqueror
Greeks never claim Dusan*
*it is between fyrom and serbia, and i m not good at that good*

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## Elias2

You're comming to a forum where peopel discuss genetics an you think you will get away calling greek sub-saharan? Here are the genetic studies of sub-saharan genetics in europe;

The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). 

Post more propaganda south slav

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## DejaVu

*The Greek Europeans?*

Ann Hum Biol. 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

*Abstract*
Background: *The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins.* By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. *Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.*

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract.*
Villena 2001 claims that *Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans*... *Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans* (Figs. 2 and 3). *This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks".* Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. *Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks*.....or vice versa. 


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
*HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.*
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/


*WHERE IS YOUR LINK - Elias2?*

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## DejaVu

*Why are you angry if the Greeks belong to the sub-saharans? Are you rasist?*

*STOP TO DENY YOUR HERITAGE JUST BE PROUD, WE ARE ALL SAME IN ROOT!*

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## Garrick

*Encyclopædia Britannica*

*www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan*

*Stefan Dušan**,* also called *Stefan Uroš IV,* English *Stephen Dushan,* or *Stephen Uroš IV* (b. 1308—d. Dec. 20, 1355), *king of Serbia* (1331–46) and “*Emperor of the Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians*” (1346–55), the greatest ruler of medieval Serbia, who promoted his nation’s influence and gave his people a new code of laws._ ... (56 of 1402 words)_

----------


## DejaVu

> *Encyclopædia Britannica*
> 
> *www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan*
> 
> *Stefan Dušan**,* also called *Stefan Uroš IV,* English *Stephen Dushan,* or *Stephen Uroš IV* (b. 1308—d. Dec. 20, 1355), *king of Serbia* (1331–46) and “*Emperor of the Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians*” (1346–55), the greatest ruler of medieval Serbia, who promoted his nation’s influence and gave his people a new code of laws._ ... (56 of 1402 words)_


*The Serbian falsification of history version.* 

*Original Version* 
*Mikloshich Franz, who along with Vuk Karadzic for the first time published documents of the medieval Serbian history*, in the monumental work "Monumenta Serbica", the title of King Dusan from the Sofian and Ravanic entry is communicated as *"Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Greek King"* (F. Miklošič, Monumenta Serbica, str 154). *But in the transcripts of Dushan's Code clearly states “Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Macedonian King".* From there comes our suspicion, that wherever is mentioned the Macedonian name, Serbian historians and transcribers of the Serbian medieval documents of the 19th century, *the word "Macedonian" where replacing with "Greek" or "Romaic”.*

Dushan's Code begins with the words "Code of Reverend and in Christ loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan,Serbian ruler, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Vlach, Dalmatian, Arbanas, and many other regions and countries." This is noted in the Zagrebian (Croatian), Ravanician (Serbia), Sofian (Bulgaria) transcript of Dushan's Code. Dushan's Code with Stefan Dusan as a Macedonian king to be find in the book the Lj. Stojanovic: (Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).) Even the famous Edith Durham in her book "High Albania", first edition, printed in the distant 1909 talk about the Macedonians, where she quoted Dushan's Code "Code of Tsar Dusan Macedonian, autocrat of Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, .." (Edith Durham, "High Albania" First published in 1909, page 294. In London Edward Arnold Publishers to the India Office 1909).

*The falsification is the use of* *"Greek King" instead of "Macedonian King".*

----------


## iapetoc

Dejavu tell me something

why Alexander horse was *Vukefalas*
and not *Bolglavata*?

 :Thinking: 

why the city was *Thessalo-niki* (Thessalian Victory)
and not *Thessalo-pobeda* 

why the old capital was *Aiges* = goats
and not *Kozι

DejaVu tell me something
was Alexander the Great Sub-Saharan also????
maybe Makedonian Dusan speaked Koine?????

no he spoked Swahili as Alexander 




*

----------


## iapetoc

Dejavu 

the is a Connection of Makedonian G2a3 and French Kings via merovignian etc

in that connection it is proved *THAT NAPOLEON WAS MAKEDONIAN*

and the Francais erase the Makedonian and Write above FRANCAIS

Is IT TRUE,????
Francais are* also Fake they deny Napoleon's Makedonian Origin*
 :Annoyed:  :Annoyed:   :Angry:  :Angry: 



Also another truth is that Mehmet II was born in Adrianopole by Makedonians but he converted islam
Turk hide well that secret 
*Mehmet II WAS MAKEDONIAN

 




besides it is well know that Alexander invasion to asia was a civil war
XERXES the MAKEDONIAN and Darius the MAKEDONIAN** was defending his throne against a rabel named Alexander 



These fake Persians and their Fake History


History must be written again for Fyrom
In that History Makedonians were speachless until 600 AD, and then finnaly found the slavic language mother of all slavic languages,
so they teach Serbs Bulgarians Croats Sloveni Slovaki Pollish the slavian language which is the Makedonic Language,
**Victor A Friedman*

*"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"*

----------


## DejaVu

*Macedonian language exist from 8th or early 7th century BC and its not included in Greek languages because of unknown origin.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)
It seems that the first Macedonian state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty, who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city of Argos in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead). The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language
*Macedonian* is the official language of the Republic of Macedonia and a member of the Eastern group of South Slavic languages. Standard Macedonian was implemented as the official language of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia in June 1945 after being codified in the 1940s, and a thriving literary tradition has since developed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
*Ancient Macedonian* was the language of the ancient Macedonians. It was spoken in the kingdom of Macedon during the 1st millennium BC and it belongs to the Indo-European group of languages. It gradually fell out of use during the 4th century BC, marginalized by Koine Greek, the _lingua franca_ of the Hellenistic period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek
*Ancient Greek* is the historical stage in the development of the Greek language spanning the Archaic (c. 9th–6th centuries BC), Classical (c. 5th–4th centuries BC), and Hellenistic (c. 3rd century BC – 6th century AD) periods of ancient Greece and the ancient world. It is predated in the 2nd millennium BC by Mycenaean Greek. Its Hellenistic phase is known as Koine ("common") or Biblical Greek, and its late period mutates imperceptibly into Medieval Greek. Koine is regarded as a separate historical stage of its own, although in its earlier form it closely resembles Classical Greek. Prior to the Koine period, Greek of the classic and earlier periods included several regional dialects.


Macedonian (Ancient - Modern): Bukephalos, Bukefal
Macedonian (Ancient - Modern): Thessalonica, Salonica, Solun (Thessaloniki never existed before)

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Regions/AegeanSea.html
*Etymology*
In ancient times there were various explanations for the name Aegean. It was said to have been named after the town of Aegae, or Aegea, a queen of the Amazons who died in the sea, or Aegeus, the father of Theseus, who drowned himself in the sea when he thought his son had died.


In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II: *"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."*

----------


## Elias2

I don't need links anymore because its become very appearent that you don't care for information you just want to post your porpaganda where ever you can. I don't think you care for the country of FYROM, you just want to tell people your 'macedonian' because it sound exotic or whatnot and makes you feel better about yourself. All your "proof" dejavu is useless because its been proven you lie in your posts which means your credibility is zero.

Keep positng propaganda though, south slavs of FYROM are still living under Tito's shadow and using his tricks. Vardarska for the Vardarskans! ;)

----------


## Garrick

DejaVu
I gave a very relevant source, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and you say that this is a falsification.

Yet it is a very respectable encyclopaedia that respects the whole world
.
I can you set the relevant sources, encyclopedias, history books, as you want, and it writes the same everywhere, and you negate it, why, because it is contrary to your wishes.

See DejaVu, someone can to set the thousands of posts, but the number itself is not very important.

More is worth one relevant post as the Encyclopaedia Britainnica than thousands of irrelevant, without difficulty and dubious.

----------


## Elias2

Garrick don't bother reasoning with him, his ignroance is set.

----------


## DejaVu

> DejaVu
> I gave a very relevant source, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and you say that this is a falsification.
> 
> Yet it is a very respectable encyclopaedia that respects the whole world
> .
> I can you set the relevant sources, encyclopedias, history books, as you want, and it writes the same everywhere, and you negate it, why, because it is contrary to your wishes.
> 
> See DejaVu, someone can to set the thousands of posts, but the number itself is not very important.
> 
> More is worth one relevant post as the Encyclopaedia Britainnica than thousands of irrelevant, without difficulty and dubious.


*If its ok for you to live with lies then continue to do so, I wont.* 

*Serbian spirit and Greek spirit is broken when the original evidence is presented, if you cant take it anymore then your are a bunch of living liars/falsification fanatics and are going to continue to be that.*
*The choice is yours.*

----------


## iapetoc

Garrick and elias2 

wait you see that , *President Obama is Makedonian But CIA hides it in purpose

DejaVu is right 

Dejavu if I change Nationality and Become a MAKEDONIAN THEN I WILL BE EUROPEAN??????
*

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick don't bother reasoning with him, his ignroance is set.


You're right.

----------


## Elias2

> Garrick and elias2 
> 
> wait you see that , *President Obama is Makedonian But CIA hides it in purpose
> 
> *


lol I think Joan of Arc, Gandi were macedonians too, as well as the blue power ranger  :Grin:

----------


## iapetoc

DejaVu Greeks never claimed Dussan as Greek
For Us it was always a Foreign Ruler
understand that, 
although later some of his sons marries palaiologos family and also share the name
for us he was a ruler a foreigner understand that,
dusan claimed Tsar of Greeks
not the Greeks claimed Dusan as tsar



HAHAHA HA 

Elias  :Good Job:   :Good Job:   :Good Job:

----------


## DejaVu

Tsar Dusan is Serb, Macedonians are not claiming him as Macedonian its about falsification of "Macedonian King" to "Greek King" to erase the existence of the Macedonians in history.

----------


## Elias2

> *Serbian spirit and Greek spirit is broken when the original evidence is presented, if you cant take it anymore then your are a bunch of living liars/falsification fanatics and are going to continue to be that.*


Your right, My spirit is destroyed! My life is over!  :Petrified: . I guess all I can do now is watch TV and wallow in my greef!. I hear the main character of Pokemon is a *real macedonian!* I wish I were him!  :Laughing:

----------


## Elias2

More real Macedonians! LOL I'm not posting in this thread anymore. Peace!  :Laughing:

----------


## iapetoc

Elias these real Makedonians are not sub-saharans,
they are Australian Vacant Origin

----------


## DejaVu

*Tsar Samuel, Bulgarian or Macedonian? (Armenian?)*
*http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/blog/samuel.html*

*Todd B. Krause*
An issue that frequently arises in connection with the LRC's lesson series Old Church Slavonic Online is the national or cultural or other affiliation of the famous Tsar Samuel (or Samuil, or somewhat more faithfully Samoilŭ). In the context of the lesson series, *Samuel is mentioned as author of a particular inscription that provides the oldest dated text in the Old Church Slavonic language.* To be clear: that is the _only_ reason for Samuel's mention in the lesson series, which concerns itself primarily with the _language_ of a particular region and time.
Nevertheless, the series editors have on numerous occasions been reminded by readers that Samuil's status as a prominant early figure in Bulgarian and Macedonian history is a great source of either pride or animosity. We would like to state flatly that *the Linguistics Research Center does not espouse any particular viewpoint re: Samuil's association with any modern or historically recent political entity*.



There are several themes that recur in email that our readers send us, and in the spirit of furthering modern understanding of historical cultures it is worth addressing some of these themes in light of modern scholarship.
*Samuil's ethnic origin*: The perennial question is whether Samuil was Bulgarian or Macedonian. The simple fact is that it is difficult to answer this question, because what those terms mean now is not necessarily what they would have meant to Samuil. Moreover, one of the few *primary sources in any way contemporary with Samuil, written by Asolik, states that Samuil was in fact Armenian.* As Adontz (1938) points out, the name of Samuil's mother, Ripsime, is peculiar to a specific region in Armenia, and his father's name Nicolas is found in numerous regions at that time, among them Armenia. Thus an Armenian origin for Samuil is certainly a credible, though perhaps not the only, reading of the evidence presented to date.*Samuil's cultural self-identification*: As many point out, what we in the modern era think about Samuil's cultural affiliation is moot if we know what he thought of himself. Unfortunately, that's not easy to determine. Though Samuil and later members of his family used, in reference to their cultural affiliation, terms we might now render as "Bulgarian," given the political climate and power struggles of his time it is quite difficult to ascertain to what degree this term truly specified a traditional culture, or to what degree it might rather have specified a political entity defining the empire. *It is quite possible that "Bulgarian" meant to Samuil something similar to what "Roman" likely meant to Charlemagne*, who neither lived in nor hailed from Rome.*General import*: The above points hopefully provide an inkling of the grave difficulties that surround the interpretation of the small amount of information we have concerning Samuil. Certainly there is room for continued refinement in our understanding. But we would do well to keep in mind points raised by Aleksandar Panev:"The differences in the various historical accounts of Samuel, who ruled a short-lived kingdom centered in Prespa and Ohrid from 976 to 1014, reflect recent nationalistic controversies and scholarly discourses that have emerged in the scholarly literature of modern Macedonia and Bulgaria. The dispute focuses on Samuel's ethnic affiliation and the alleged nationality of his subjects. On one hand, scholars from the *Republic of Macedonia tend to emphasize the cultural, social, and even linguistic distinctiveness of Samuel's kingdom.* On the other, *Bulgarian scholars emphasize the fact that Samuel used the Bulgarian name for himself and his kingdom and the beginnings of his career in southwestern Macedonia are rarely mentioned.* *Both approaches clearly aim to support present-day nationalistic claims and agendas.* The Macedonians need this approach in order to demonstrate that they have long been a separate nationality with their own language and history; the Bulgarian interpretation, on the other hand, supports the claim that Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians by ethnic origin, as well as by cultural and linguistic characteristics. Both approaches are anachronistic. It is indeed difficult to speak about the national consciousness of a short-lived medieval ruler and his subjects and to discuss his impact on national development at a time when the majority of the population was illiterate and boundaries were fluid. Moreover, *the only primary source that discusses the ethnic affiliation of Samuel asserts that he was an Armenian by origin.* Bulgarian and Macedonian ethnic groups only began to acquire national consciousness in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Only during the past century and a half have Southeastern European Slavs gradually begun to assert their nationality and unify around several urban centers. Thus, the national affiliation of Samuel can neither be determined nor could it be relevant to today's situation in the region." (Panev, 2005)
 


*Themes in the Byzantine Empire under Basil II*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria


*http://www.macedonianspark.com/en/hi...11-09-11-46-06*
*As we can see, King Dusan proclaimed himself for Macedonian king, but not because he was Macedonian, but for someone to proclaim himself a king, or emperor in medieval times had to take the crown of a kingdom that existed previously. And what kingdom would that be if not the kingdom of Samuel!* Knowing that Kosara, daughter of Samuel married DuklaPrince John Vladimir, who was a prisoner at Samuil's royal palace. However, lucky for him, thanks to the love of Kosara, he was pardoned and became son in-law of Samuel, but also part of the family.
*Is there any greater evidence that would challenge the contention of some Bulgarian historians that Samuil’s state was Bulgarian? According to medieval law, the king's crown could be obtained only from the patriarch. When Emperor Dusan governed the whole territory of Macedonia in his state was found two autocephalous Archbishopry, the one of Ohrid and Pech.* Soon Dusan decided to proclaim himself a king. Therefore it was necessary the Pech archdiocese to be declared for patriarchate. It was helped by the Ohrid Archbishop and the TrnovoPatriarch. The both Holy Synods and the Patriarch of Trnovo came, and both of them proclaimed Joannicius II for patriarch, and then the three church dignitaries coronate Dusan in a king. The participation of the Macedonian superior - Ohrid Archbishop was considered as a substitute for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who canceled his attendance in the coronation. Any changes in the Serbian state and church were done with the participation and the blessing of the Macedonian archbishop. 
Whether in this case we should close our eyes when the same Macedonian church today is denied? *This historical fact, in the 19th century disturbed the Serbian intelligence, which was in its infancy, that’s why there are many falsifications of the Serbian medieval documents in their re-publishing in the 19th century.*

*Cups found in Samuils Fortress*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuil's_Fortress,_Ohrid



http://www.mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=14
_Samuil’s Fortress (Pasko Kuzman)_
Relief (megharic) ceramic cups with representation of the solar symbol of the ancient Macedonians (2nd century BC), discovered in the same cistern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun


*Bulgarian Falsification of Macedonian history*

*The stone inscriptions case*
http://www.makedonika.org/whatsnew/T...ONS%20CASE.pdf

1. This is the fabricated stone inscription by "Tsar Samuil" found in Voden (Edessa), Greece.


2. This is the stone inscription by Ivan Vladislav found in Bitola, Macedonia.


*THE TEXT*
*1. This is the text translated in Bulgarian from the fake stone in Voden:*
1. V samodurjavnia grad Voden Az Samuil, veren v Hrista
2. Car na Bulgarite i Romeite, ot boga izpraten samodurjec
3. na vsichki strani ot Rashka do Makedonia, Tesalia
4. i Gurcia , vnuk na staria Shishman, koito beshe Han na
5. jitelite na Turnovo, postroih tozi molitven dom, za da
sushtestvuva v vechnostta. Osnovite biaha polojeni v epohata
na Ieremia, koito beshe pruv hristianin ot Melnik.
6. Postroen be (tozi hram) za grehovete i spasenieto na bulgarite
7. ot prokletia Satana, koito proizhojda ot Konstantinopol.
8. Tozi hram be zavurshen prez 14-tata godina ot caruvaneto mi
s pomoshtta na sveshtennika Gavril, koito e duhoven pastirna jitelite na Muglen.
9. Napisano prez godina 6497 ot suzdavaneto na sveta (989 g.)5-ti Indiktion. 

*Rough translation into English:*

In the city of Voden, I Samuil, faithul to Christ, Emperor of the Bulgars and Romans, Godsent emperor of all lands from Raska to Macedonia, Thessaly and Greece, nephew of the old Shishman who was Khan of the inhabitants of Trnovo, built this prayer home, to exist forever. The foundation were laid in the epoch of Jeremiah, who was the first hristian in Melnik. This tample was built for the sins and saving of the Bulgars from damned Satan, who comes from Constantinople. This tample was finished during the 14th year of my rule with the help of monk Gavril, who is the spiritial shepherd of the inhabitants of Meglen. Written during year 6497 from the foundation of the world (989 A.D), 5th Indiction. 


*2. This is the text translated in Bulgarian from the stone in Bitola:*

"Prez godina 6523 (1015-1016) ot sutvorenieto na sveta obnovi se tazi krepost, zidana i pravena ot Ioan, samodurjec bulgarski, s pomoshtta i s molitvite na presvetata vladichica nasha Bogorodica i chrez zastupnichestvoto na dvanadesette i na vurhovnite apostoli. Tazi krepost be napravena za ubejishte i za spasenie i za jivota na bulgarite. Zapochnata beshe krepostta Bitolia prez mesec oktomvri v 20-i den, a se zavurshi v mesec... kraia. Tozi samodurjec beshe bulgarin po rod, vnuk na Nikola i na Ripsimia blagovernite, sin na Aaron, koito e brat na Samuil, caria samodurjaven, i koiito dvamata razbiha v
Shtipon (Ihtiman) gruckata voiska na car Vasilii, kudeto be vzeto zlato... , a tozi v... car razbit bide ot car Vasilii v godina 6522 (1014) ot sutvorenieto na sveta v Kliuch i pochina v kraia na liatoto."

*Rough translation into English:*

During the year 6523 (1015-1016) from the beggining of the world this fortress is being renewed, built and made by Ioan, Bulgarian autocrator, with the help and prayers of our Virgin Mary and through the representation of the twelve and supreme apostles. This fortress was made as haven and deliverance of the lives of the Bulgarians. The fortress Bitolia was started during the month of October 20th and was completed in the month of... ending. This autocrator was Bulgarian by birth, nephew of Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who is brother to Samuil, the tsar autocrator, with whom they smashed in Shtipon (Ihtiman) the Greek army of tsar Vasili, where they took gold..., and this tsar was destroyed by tsar Vasili in the year of 6522 (1014) from the beginning of the world in Kliuch and died at the end of the summer

*3. The Story*

During September 1997 a Greek national with "Bulgarian identity" from Voden named Stoidis
appeared in Sofia at the National Historical Museum and declared to the Director Bozidar
Dimitrov that he has in his possession a stone inscription found in Voden (Edessa) during
the reconstruction of a local church. The Director declared the inscription a fake made
by Bulgarian nationalists in the 19th Century. Apparently the whole story was published
in the Bulgarian daily Kontinent on "02.10.1997."


The "Bitola inscription" was discovered during the demolition of a mosque in Bitola during the
1950's and so far nobody doubted its veracity. Considering the Voden case the Bitola stone
has to be viewed in new light. Chances that it was written by the same authors are indeed very
high. We have also to ask about other products from the same authors as well as regard
the whole Bulgarian historiography concerning Macedonia with great suspicion.




*The legend of Basil the Bulgar-slayer.*
http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/...nson_basil.htm
In chapter five, Stephenson explores how the contemporary authors referred to Basil. *An extensive survey of the Byzantine sources reveal that instead of Voulgaroktonos, Basil was generally referred to as porphyrogennetos or "born in the purple" to show he was the reigning emperor.* Otherwise he was referred to as "the younger" or "the second". Thus Basil was known to the chroniclers and others as Basil II. This trend continued in the literature well beyond the life of Basil. Stephenson also reveals that this was well known even to biographers in the seventeenth century.

It is not until chapter six that *the mystery is revealed in why Basil transforms from porphyrogennetos into the Voulgaroktonos. As one might suspect it has more to do with political changes, particularly in the ways that Bulgars were viewed in the twelfth century, rather than any particular historical activities.* However, Basil image would decline again in later centuries, particularly with the rise of the Turks and a decline in the threat from the Bulgars.

----------


## DejaVu

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon*
*Perseus* (Greek: _Περσεύς_) (ca. 212 BC - 166 BC) was the last king (_Basileus_) of the Antigonid dynasty, who ruled the successor state in Macedon created upon the death of Alexander the Great. He also has the distinction of being the last of the line, after losing the Battle of Pydna on 22 June 168 BC; subsequently Macedon came under Roman rule.

The Antigonid kingdom was dissolved, and replaced with four republics. Andriscus of Macedon broke off the Roman rule for about a year, but was defeated in 148 BC by the Romans. In 146 BC, the four republics were dissolved, and Macedon officially became the Roman province of Macedonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...e_of_Macedonia

*The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD*


*Roman provinces,400 AD*

----------


## DejaVu

__
*The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th–8th centuries*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
*Sklavinia(i)* (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: _SCLAVINIAE_) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name _Sclaveni_, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The _Sclaviniae_ of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations: 
The *Serbs* became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (_hypekooi_) and eventually became independent.The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of *Bulgarians*.**


*Collapse of the Western Empire (395–476)*


*What was slavic people?* 
*Was all Sclaviniae same people, or was it again a roman way to describe all people outside the borders of Rome as it was before, Barbarians (Germania was not inhabited only of todays Germans)?* 
*Did the Romans ask the people what they were, dont think so, they did not care.*

----------


## DejaVu

*SLAVS?*
*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract*
*Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,* like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
*Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...* 

*Abstract*
HLA alleles have been determined in *individuals from the Republic of Macedonia* by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks.

----------


## iapetoc

*Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... 

DejaVu did anyone claim opposite?
*I said about ancient Thracians trbes
*
BUT DOES MILENA 2001 SAYS WHICH MAKEDONIANS? (SLAVIC OR GREEK), ARE SONS OF ANCIENTS MAKEDONIANS?

Besides I can read Bulgarian in tsar Cymeon stone, 
Not Alexanders alphabet But Cyrrilic 


*During Simeon's rule, *Bulgaria* spread over a territory between the Aegean, the Adriatic and the Black Sea,[7][8]
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

He conquered Makedonia, He was an Invader,
*Just follow slavic Kings to prove your Betrayal to your Ancestors* Argeians Dynasty
*or you may want to prove that you are a Bulgarian claim another Ethnicitie

----------


## LeBrok

> hahaha
> I am G2a3 
> or G2a2, i will find tomorrow the results
> 
> What are trying to do people, I am Proud for What I AM


Lol, that's really funny and sad at the same time. You and DejaVu are like cousins, and both Makedonians, and can't find a common goal, understanding to live peacefully like brothers.

On other hand, thanks to you two, I learnt some history of this region.

Later ;)

----------


## Garrick

> Lol, that's really funny and sad at the same time. You and DejaVu are like cousins, and both Makedonians, and can't find a common goal, understanding to live peacefully like brothers.
> 
> On other hand, thanks to you two, I learnt some history of this region.
> 
> Later ;)


LeBrok

Iapetoc is *Macedonian (Greece)*.

DejaVu is *Slavic Macedonian (Macedonia, FYROM)*.

The ancient Macedonians according to historical sources, most likely the Dorian tribe Makednoi.
SlavoMacedonians are closest Serbs according to research haplogroup.

*Scientific analysis of DNA results*
Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html

Labels are as follows:

GRE: Greece
SER: Serbia
SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
HER: Herzegovina
BOS: Bosnia
ALB: Albania
KAL: Kosovo Albanians
SLO: Slovenia
CRO: Croatia
UKR: Ukraine
TUR: Turkey
HUN: Hungary
ROM: Romania
ITA: Italy

You can see his results on map.

 

I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

The differences are as follows:

SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right *Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia*.


In the original Dieckens paper *Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded,* which indicates a high congruence of population.

----------


## LeBrok

I was marley commenting on their similarities. They are both G2a3 and both Macedonians. Most likely they are both autosomaly closely related, but they act and fight like one is a dog the other a cat. Their divide is only cultural.

----------


## DejaVu

*Wrong Results*

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data



*AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.*

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

*Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)*

*I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%*
*I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%*
*R1a 14,5_________15,2%*
*R1b 4,5%_________5,1%*
*E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%*
*J2 5,6%____________12,7%*
*G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%*
*N 3,3% _______________ 0%*
*L 0,6% _______________ 0%* 

*Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs*
*Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html
"Currently, *I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations*."

*Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
_Sklavinia(i)_ (Greek: Σκλαβινίαι, Latin: _SCLAVINIAE_) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name _Sclaveni_, which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The _Sclaviniae_ of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations: 
The *Serbs* became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (_hypekooi_) and eventually became independent.The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state, they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of *Bulgarians*.The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi and Antes. Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor. Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a _Macedonian Sclavinia_. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites. By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (_Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns_).
*In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').*

*The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)*



*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract*
*Abstract*
HLA alleles have been determined in *individuals from the Republic of Macedonia* by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed.

*Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,* like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
*Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...* 

*But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?*

----------


## Garrick

> *Wrong Results*
> 
> Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)
> 
> Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)
> 
> I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
> I1 7,8% __________ No data
> R1a 14,5_________15,2%
> ...


(I repeat this with another topic.)
DejaVu
Even better, you added missed.

And *is there any difference*?

Of course that does not exist and it is true that the *Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.*

Probably *you not carefully read Dieckens analysis*.

Dieckens
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
"Currently, *I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations*."

Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


DejaVu
You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the *key issues*.

----------


## DejaVu

*There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs (does not mean Serbs are hated). And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

----------


## Garrick

I just presented a scientific analysis and commented on the result in two sentences, as is evident from the picture and nothing more.

----------


## DejaVu

*Lookalikes?*

*Macedonian National Football Team*


*Serbian National Football Team*


*Greek National Football Team*


*Bulgarian National Football Team*


*Albanian National Football Team*

----------


## iapetoc

*DejaVu you are* *still WRONG*

The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived 
And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,

If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
and Have even *46% at nearby Gegs* in Kossovo *(E-V13)*
*
THEN THE RESULTS ON SLAVIC MAKEDONIAN ARE MORE SIMILAR TO SERBIA AND BULGARIA THAN GREECE*.

Besides the fall of J2 as we go north proves that Greek Makedonians never pass above Bardar iron gates (Demirkapi) as I already said
and the Treaty of 1913 is just a political trick,
cause the ancient Greek Makedonia Has common with Slavic Makedonia only the name,
only the E-V13 of albanians if it is expelled then The I2a2 raises to same with Serbia


*I1*  *I2a* *I2b* *R1a* *R1b* *G2a* *J2* *J1* *E1b1b* *T (+ L)* *Q* *N1c1*

3.5 7 3.5 13.5 10 8 19.5 3 28 4 0 0
the above results is nearGreek Makedonia Thessalia
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

It is obvius that I2a is dropping Dramatically as we go south
The I2a mainly has to with areas of Slavonic speaking people,

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Wrong Results*
> Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)
> Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)
> I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
> I1 7,8% __________ No data
> R1a 14,5_________15,2%
> R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
> E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
> J2 5,0____________6,3%
> ...


actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al 
E1b1b1a-M78_________*15.6*______*28.8*____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________*3.8*________2.7______*4.8*___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________*1.9*________*6.3*_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________*27.5*_______*1.8*_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________*5.2*________*13.5*____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________*0.5*_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________*14.2*_______*12.6*____*4.8*____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________*11.4*_______*18.0*____*23.8*___14.3
T-M70________________*1.9*_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


btw. making minority group consisting of in total as low as 21 people (not enough sample for single group on narrow geographic area) of different origin is laughable...

anyway, this shows you that in Macedonia ethinc Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)

what distinguish Macedonians from other neighbouring populations is ~2% of haplogroup T, which is contrary to claim from Maciamo's table absent in Serbia as K* from work of Pericic maps to N+Q+L in work of Mirabal


we should compare genetics of FYR Macedonia with the one of Greek Macedonia...
but what is evident is that FYR Macedonians share dominant and distinguishing (the one that makes them stick out from environment) haplogroup with other south Slavs... so, if you want to prove continuity with ancioent Macedonians, you should focus on finding if there is continuity between south Slavs and ancient Macedonians...

----------


## Garrick

> *DejaVu you are* *still WRONG*
> 
> The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
> Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived 
> And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,
> 
> If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
> and Have even *46% at nearby Gegs* in Kossovo *(E-V13)*
> 
> ...


Iapetoc
Yes, Dienekes Pontikos did a scientific analysis of the results and according to him, the population of Macedonia is very close to the population of Serbia (SER and SMA positions in the image).

I presented Dienekes's analysis on the post #315, gave a link and image and everyone can see and analyze.

----------


## Garrick

> actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
> Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
> http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
> sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
> _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al 
> E1b1b1a-M78_________*15.6*______*28.8*____14.3____19.8
> E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
> E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
> G-M201______________*3.8*________2.7______*4.8*___3.5
> ...


how yes no
Ok.

But and I wrote that the data for Serbia and Macedonia and I was very clear that data are about a population of Serbia and Macedonia, and not on ethnicity.

And on another topic I made it clear that the former kingdoms and republics Yugoslavia had the similarity (someone can interpret that had a meaning).

----------


## how yes no 2

> how yes no
> Ok.
> 
> But and I wrote that the data for Serbia and Macedonia and I was very clear that data are about a population of Serbia and Macedonia, and not on ethnicity.
> 
> And on another topic I made it clear that the former kingdoms and republics Yugoslavia had the similarity (someone can interpret that had a meaning).


yes
but I am worried how will Deja-Vu accept that Macedonians are just south Slavs or, in fact that they are mostly Serb related/derived people...

though he himself with his G haplogroup may indeed origin from ancient Macedonians.... and it would be nice twist if he finds out that Iapetoc is his close cousin...

----------


## DejaVu

*Can the Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and other Balkan countries accept that their origin in their country is mixed from many different people?*
*If not, then its back to ZERO.*

----------


## Garrick

> yes
> but I am worried how will Deja-Vu accept that Macedonians are just south Slavs or, in fact that they are mostly Serb related/derived people...
> 
> though he himself with his G haplogroup may indeed origin from ancient Macedonians.... and it would be nice twist if he finds out that Iapetoc is his close cousin...


how yes no
This is a problem, since the communists from 1945 wrongly taught them and what is now catching for the ancient Macedonians.

On the one hand today's FYROM Macedonians tend not to be as they are, ie. to run away from closest the South Slav mostly Serb related roots.

On the other hand they tend to be who they are not, ie. the greater Greeks than real Greeks.

----------


## DejaVu

*And Serbia is almost finished, now its Vojvodinas time to break off from the FANATICS. The truth is hurting Serbians or fake Serbs who dont know their history.*
*Better be what you are then pretend. You cant live without the Nationalists like Vojislav Šešelj. Serbia the land of criminality, drugdealers and history falsification that cries on Russias feet to help the poor fanatics.*

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Can the Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and other Balkan countries accept that their origin in their country is mixed from many different people?*
> *If not, then its back to ZERO.*


that's clear to everyone I think....
point is that there is distinguishing factor, and for FYRM Macedonians and other south Slavs it is I2a2





> *And Serbia is almost finished, now its Vojvodinas time to break of from the FANATICS. The truth is hurting Serbians or fake Serbs who dont know their history.*
> *Better be what you are then pretend.*


lol, you call Serbs fanatics...
but if in average FYR Macedonians are being just one tenth of being fanatical on the level that you are on this forum, perhaps FYR Macedonians are much more Serbs than Serbs - according to your definition of Serbs as FANATICS... :)

----------


## DejaVu

*Remember what it says in the bible﻿, what goes around comes around.*


*Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.*

*Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.*
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY*
*(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)*

*Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII* 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk


*That is done to the Macedonians by their so-called brothers.*
*The real history will never be forgotten.*

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Remember what it says in the bible﻿, what goes around comes around.*


Serbs never did massively kill Macedonians... the crime of Serbs is only that they always saw Macedonians as what they probably are - Serb related or even Serb derived people
Bulgarians did massively kill both Serbs and Macedonians in both world wars... but in case of Serbs besides Bulgarians they were massively killed in both world wars also by Croats, but most Serbs still see Croats as brothers... while Bulgarians are considered different people and to Bulgarians only link are Macedonians that by some mystery seems to speak somewhat alike to Bulgarians...

I am fine with Macedonians being separate nations, most people from Serbia are... and I really like Macedonians as most people from Serbia do... in fact, Macedonians are probably our favorite neighbours... especially as many people in Serbia also have partial origin from Macedonia 

but your posts here are a bit "like cacao" if you understand what I mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIDMzbvrf4 (read lyrics)

or to translate it for others they are like an illusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VbKgOM0gg

though, I have to confess that you and Iapetoc are great pair, like yin and yang, so you must be family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBbQ6bBJik

----------


## DejaVu

*The posts are related, when people are connecting thru genetics that in real life, they dont even have same nationality. That means learn the past and live in the present and the future.*

Epithesi sto leoforeio (Dinamo Zagreb-Paok)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzJJPwDAHe8
(Greek? PAOK supporters in bus on fire, some started to speak Macedonian "slavic").

Hitler: "Zu dem Operationen in Jugoslawien wurden ohne die Berücksichtigung deutsche Volk Zugehörigkeit so wie der Kroaten und die Mazedonier die soweit Sofort Frei gelassen waren"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsCsoUVvkJw
Hitler: "In the course of the operations against Yugoslavia, without counting the soldiers of German stock or the Croats and Macedonians who were immediately released"

----------


## Garrick

> *Remember what it says in the bible﻿, what goes around comes around.*





> *Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.*
> 
> *Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.*
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY*
> *(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)*
> 
> *Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII* 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk
> 
> ...





> actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
> Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
> http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
> sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
> _______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al 
> E1b1b1a-M78_________*15.6*______*28.8*____14.3____19.8
> E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
> E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
> G-M201______________*3.8*________2.7______*4.8*___3.5
> ...


 
Serbs never terrorized in Macedonia.

And this whole story here is stupid because it turns out that the main problem is antiquity.

And the only thing we try to say is to keep mind.

As much as someone tried from the SlavoMacedonians to create Ancient Macedonians.

But today* Macedonia FYROM becomes a bi-national country*, since the *number of Albanians increased*, so that they now make up *25 to 30% of the population*.

The origin of Albanians is different from the Slav Macedonians which clearly show different haplogroups.

And if we talk about Macedonia today Albanians are unavoidable factor due to their numbers and influence, which is further strengthened by the Ohrid Agreement, so that haplogroups of Albanians and in general the impact Albanians in Macedonia FYROM is inevitable in the further considerations.

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.*
> *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY*


btw. this clip is clearly Bulgarian propaganda in order to distance Macedonians from Serbs... it does not have much to do with reality... search history data, do not take youtube clips for granted.. you tube clips regarding history or politics are usually propaganda clips made by some fanatics or even teens, completely disregarding the facts.....

----------


## DejaVu

Do you understand why I have aggressive posts?
To make you all understand the real facts, and you people constantly deny them? We know the history, what is done is done.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Do you understand why I have aggressive posts?
> To make you all understand the real facts, and you people constantly deny them? We know the history, what is done is done.


I can understand your anti-Greek sentiment, as Slavic Macedonians in north Greece were forced to speek Greek and become Greeks...
I can understend your anti-Bulgarian sentiment, as Macedonians do not exist in Bulgaria anymore, they are now Bulgarians....

But the Macedonians from FYRM, the one that were in Serb states are only ones who now have own state and are not assimilated... so no, I do not understand your aggressive attitude towards Serbs.... In Serbia most people have very positive emotions regarding Macedonians, and many people have partial origin from Macedonia....

my point is if you want to prove continuity between Macedonians and ancient Macedonians, you can as well start by proving continuity of other south Slavs with previous inhabitants, as Macedonians are dominantly of same origin as other south Slavs...

back to haplogroups, R1a is according to Klyosov much much older in Macedonia, Bosnia and Serbia than in the rest of the world taken together....therefore it cannot be recent arrival.... 

and since R1a is also unusually high in Greek Macedonians,
it seems obvious that ancient Macedonians likely have been R1a dominant people...
in some sense.... many people who have later become Slavic do have R1a haplogroup, and since that haplogroup origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia...in that sense you can see ancient Macedonians as genetically related to pre-Slavic people or even as origin of Slavic people.... but R1a in FYRM and Serbia is today bellow 15%...

so that does not imply genetic continuity....
for genetic continuity, you need I2a2 to be part of ancient Macedonians heritage, and I really don't know wheter that was really the case...
for culture continuity, you need to prove that ancient Macedonians did speak language akin to Slavic, while only their elite was Hellenic.... (e.g. to help you a bit: Macedonian king who was at first not allowed to take part in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Hellenic, did not use as argument that Macedonians are Hellenic, but that his family is Hellenic...after claiming that, he was allowed to participate... so, this incident makes it very clear that his familly was Greek, but that nation they ruled over was not...but this fact still does not relate those people to pre-Slavic people...and in fact you should search for exact phrasing in Herodotous work in order to verify story above....) 

continuity of south Slavs from previous inhabitants is possible, but it is not a fact, and not even a strong theory...
personally, I do believe that ancient Macedonians were Serb related 
because I think that eponym ancestor of both was queen of Sheba, also known as Makeda in south of her lands, and Balkis in Arabic countries... which for me fits perfectly with Macedonians being south of Serbs, and area getting name Balkan when it was under Arab influenced Ottoman empire...

but I cannot claim that is truth or not, as it is just an idea...
most of your posts are also based on ideas various people have.... 
ideas do not prove anything, they are just guidelines about possible flow of events....

----------


## Garrick

> I can understand your anti-Greek sentiment, as Slavic Macedonians in north Greece were forced to speek Greek and become Greeks...
> I can understend your anti-Bulgarian sentiment, as Macedonians do not exist in Bulgaria anymore, they are now Bulgarians....
> 
> But the Macedonians from FYRM, the one that were in Serb states are only ones who now have own state and are not assimilated... so no, I do not understand your aggressive attitude towards Serbs.... In Serbia most people have very positive emotions regarding Macedonians, and many people have partial origin from Macedonia....
> 
> my point is if you want to prove continuity between Macedonians and ancient Macedonians, you can as well start by proving continuity of other south Slavs with previous inhabitants, as Macedonians are dominantly of same origin as other south Slavs...
> 
> back to haplogroups, R1a is according to Klyosov much much older in Macedonia, Bosnia and Serbia than in the rest of the world taken together....therefore it cannot be recent arrival.... 
> 
> ...


How yes no
Since DejaVu I have experienced serious offense but I never came back nearly equal measure. I really try to respect his integrity, although he does not deserve because they do not respect mine.

However, sentence by sentence, I’m trying to give him the key issues which, unfortunately, in Macedonia FYROM some people do not take seriously enough.

Communists when, in 1945 formed what they wanted on the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, not even dreamed that one day it will appear research of haplogroups and many other things and that will be used with much more knowledge.

Today, the Macedonian elite (which is not only the government), is dedicated to all antiquity, including a major project Skopje in 2014 where more and does not know that the famous figure of the ancient world, especially ancient Greece, will come across a statue which should highlight “the fact about ancient Macedonian origin” and so on. But, the story can break the the head of its creators and can brings FYROM Macedonia in a hopeless situation. 

I will gave one example. And yesterday and today has a very prominent researchers in the west, and not just to the west, who believe that Alexander the Macedonian was Illyrian/Albanian, and that ancient Macedonians were Illyrian/Albanian tribe. Greek scientists actually have a problem in dealing with these concepts, much greater than with the Slav Macedonians, and one of the reasons is the similarity of haplogroups Greeks and Albanians.

One key finding in Pakistan, what I will write is completely blew away any idea of Slav Macedonian scholars on the origin of Alexander the Great, and gave wings to the Albanians more say about Alexander's Illyrian/Albanian origin.

To be continued

----------


## how yes no 2

> One key finding in Pakistan, what I will write is completely blew away any idea of Slav Macedonian scholars on the origin of Alexander the Great, and gave wings to the Albanians more say about Alexander's Illyrian/Albanian origin.


I am pretty sure that key finding is one in zillion recent inventions of Albanian fanatics ala deja-vu, as I am sure that relation between Pakistan and Albanians can't be your finding, I have searched keywords on google... and have chosen random you tube link about issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcOB5VzS1A

I didnot watch something so funny for long time... oh, man it is hilarious what fanatics can trully believe in...

they claim how Kalash, burusho (Hunza) and Pamirians who all claim descend from armies of Alexander Great are Albanians based on stupid arguments of type they are white, and Pamir = pa+ mir = nice view in albanian, Burrusho comes from Burre - man in Albanian, and Hunza comes from word Hundez that means "small noise" which is lol about acustic properties of place where they live... of course they did not bother to check whether those names have some meaning in native languages...but they used ridiculous alike Albanian word coins to explain them...I am sure that can be done in any language
Pa+mir = well(than) + peace in Serbian
Pam+ir is where Pamela from Ireland was on vacation in 323 BC..
Hundez & Hunza & small noise- are Huns also Albanians that made small noise when they farted?
as for Burrusho, I guess Boers (Boer is dutch word and is pronounced as Bur) in south Africa must as well be Albanians...

than key proof Sarplaninac dog breed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0arplaninac) from Sar mountain (south Serbia that is Kosovo, northwest Macedonia, northeast Albania) that they call Illyrian dog... now that dog sort was likely on Sar mountain also in time of Alexander Macedonian...so it is normal that some of them were taken with army.... that proves nothing of Albanians being involved in contest... in fact, Afghanistan is also place where Seneca's Serians lived in arc from northwest China to India.... and Sar mountain is named after Scordisci, which to me indicates clearly that Scordisci were Serians....

another key proof are horns... Alexandar the great has horns on some representation and Skenderbeg has as well on another... besides that being likely just an artistic freedom what can I say, Sherden (sea peoples who left toponym Serbonian bog /Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt) did as well have horns... ...so this can point to Serb origin... but it doesnot, as vikings and many other people carried horns...

and btw, Skenderbeg is anyway of disputed origin... largely Slavic.... as his older brothers were Stanisha, Reposh, and Kostandin, and his sisters were Mara, Jelena, Angjelina, Vlajka, and Mamica.[1] which are all clearly Slavic names that have nothing to do with Albanians... his last name does sound Greek to me though...

as for Pa+mir = nice view
Burusho = people
Hunza = nice sound

I am still laughing....

hope you have stronger evidence than these you tube jokes...

----------


## Garrick

> I am pretty sure that key finding is one in zillion recent inventions of Albanian fanatics ala deja-vu, as I am sure that relation between Pakistan and Albanians can't be your finding, I have searched keywords on google... and have chosen random you tube link about issue
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcOB5VzS1A
> 
> I didnot watch something so funny for long time... oh, man it is hilarious what fanatics can trully believe in...
> 
> they claim how Kalash, burusho (Hunza) and Pamirians who all claim descend from armies of Alexander Great are Albanians based on stupid arguments of type they are white, and Pamir = pa+ mir = nice view in albanian, Burrusho comes from Burre - man in Albanian, and Hunza means "small noise" which is lol about acustic properties of place where they live... 
> 
> than key proof Sarplaninac dog breed from south Serbia from Sar mountains that they call Illyrian dog... now that dog sort was ofcourse on Sar mountain also in time of Alexander Macedonian...so it is normalled that some of them were taken with army.... that proves nothing of Albanians being involved in contest... in fact, Afghanistan is also place where Seneca's Serians lived in arc from northwest China to India.... and Sar mountain is named after Scordisci, which to me indicates clearly that Scordisci were Serians....
> ...


how yes no
No hurry, this is not the issue.

----------


## iapetoc

Deja Vu let me make you something clear.

By having the name Makedonia and Nationality you only make Enemies,
The aggressive stand is not for own Good,

1 By claiming Makedonian Nationality , then you Give Reason to Greek people to attack conquer and liberate you from Slavic occupation,
The above was the Idea of Xtra Fanaticks in Greece National Party

2 by claiming Makedonians you Give reason to other slavic Nations to involve your state and politicks,

3 by naming the Truth that you are slavic that lived in that Area for 1000 years
you can have the desired Makedonia and the acceptance of all,

4 by claiming Dusan - Siimeon-Samuel-Alexander only enemies you make,
because you claim land and History of 4 nearby nations,

Greece is not willing to invade you, or to Harm you, Greece accepted your will of Independence and considers you a Free country,
But your claims only block more friendship and solidarity,
the acceptance as you did that you are a Slavic nation only good will Bring, and calms down area
about the slavic that many greek speak, I must inform you that many Greeks study in Serbia and Bulgaria and lived there, almost 60 000 in serbia and today live 100 000 in Bulgaria,
Besides even me had to learn some cause when i was Young i worked in a tavernand in summer it was full of Ex Yugoslavians,
Besides it was the Serbs that reach first Monaster (Bitola) in WW1 and today that area belong to you, and not Greece, cause Bitola was dwelt by enough Greeks and was a part of Ancient Makedonia and the dream of Greek kings,
(bitola not skopje)
and it was the Bulgarian guerilla that fight for you at balkan wars,

the Greeks in order of peace accept your claim to name Makedonia under geografical reason, only if you name your nationality, and stop claiming,

the genetical difference as you see is quite enough,
If every Fyrom-ian accepts that he is slavic then your problem with Greece is solved,

----------


## how yes no 2

> how yes no
> No hurry, this is not the issue.


ok, looking forward to hear...
but tomorrow...

----------


## Garrick

> ok, looking forward to hear...
> but tomorrow...


how yes no 
In this scholarly text the *international and Pakistani authors speak only about the Greeks*.

However, and Albanians are calling for this investigation.

The attempts of some Slav Macedonian scientists to talk about Aroumanian or similar origins of Alexander the Great more attempt to delay the inevitable truth.


*Alexander the Macedonian was most likely haplogroup E*.

And we know who are the *E carriers in the Balkans*.

*Mostly Greeks or Albanians*.


If it is proved that the Illyrians/Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians it is worse option for Slav Macedonians than the descedents are Greeks. Communist propaghanda began since 1945 can experience a complete breakdown, but it is good the Slav Macedonians at the time to recognize how the game is not only stupid but dangerous.

(Though, personally, I think the ancient *Doric tribe Makednoi is founder Macedonia*, and despite all the support of researchers in the world cannot prove that Dorians are Illyrians/Albanians because *Dorians are Greeks*.)

But How yes no, you well noticed, and even some of my countrymen, but particularly Iapetoc that is the analyst par excellence, that the Albanian question of origin is most complex issue and to untangle a real achievement.

I personally congratulate you on the findings in Macedonia FYROM, of research where is discovered among *Albanians* *haplogroup E-M81 which is present in Berbers*.

It was also discovered another E subclade M34, but it is known that is present in the Balkans. 

This means that haplogroup E-V13 is not only present among Albanians, although it is by far the largest.

----------


## iapetoc

hahaha 
the mollosos




Alexanders Dogs, from the kingdom of his mother,
Garrick Alexander was surely not E
probably he was J2 as Dorians,
or maybe a kind of R his ancestors were all kings
now about E has to do mainly in West Greek Makedonia, the Aeolian E and that surely ally after 200 years of 1rst Makedonian
but also the myth of France royal family with G-Ydna that comes from Alexander can give a suspicius of G since Alexander left no sons and the 1 he left was slain,
then we must search to near by blood connections,
bones of Phillip (or Alexander 4rth have been found) and if a license from the museum a good reasearch can give more light

----------


## how yes no 2

> Deja Vu let me make you something clear.
> 
> By having the name Makedonia and Nationality you only make Enemies,
> The aggressive stand is not for own Good,
> 
> 1 By claiming Makedonian Nationality , then you Give Reason to Greek people to attack conquer and liberate you from Slavic occupation,
> The above was the Idea of Xtra Fanaticks in Greece National Party


I do not expect this dispute can ever lead to armed conflict....
from what I know both nowadays FYRM Macedonians and Greeks are good natured, peaceful orthodox people, defenders and not conquerers.... sure there are fanatics on both sides that have their own truths like two of you here... but you see that your dialog is friendly despite completely opposite views... lol, Iapetoc and Deja-vu - yin and yang, G haplogroup family... you two guys are symbol of Greek Macedonians and Slav Macedonians...

ancient Macedonians probably didnot speak either Greek (except for elite) or Slavic or Albanian...

people change languages easily - that is nothing new... look at spread of latin derived languages...from once little village called Rome to whole Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Romaina and latin America...
only genetics can tell us of origin....

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Alexander the Macedonian was most likely haplogroup E*.
> 
> And we know who are the *E carriers in the Balkans*.
> 
> *Mostly Greeks or Albanians*.


why do you think Alexander Macedonian was E-V13?
as far as I know there are no preserved remains of Alexander Macedonian....

Besides, there are E-V13 people as far as Germany, Netherlands, UK, Baltic... they are for sure not all Albanians in origin.... and it is already known that royal family of ancient Macedonians is of Greek origin, so Alexander himself was Greek...




> (Though, personally, I think the ancient *Doric tribe Makednoi is founder Macedonia*, and despite all the support of researchers in the world cannot prove that Dorians are Illyrians/Albanians because *Dorians are Greeks*.)



yes, but question is were Dorians really Greeks.... my guess is that they brought lot of non-Greek genetics in Greece.... the way I see it is that they went north as J2+ some E-V13 Greeks, but returned to Greece as heavily mixed with R1a and perhaps also I2a2 people...my guess is that the very name Macedonian did not exist when they went north but did when they returned

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## iapetoc

back to the begining, hmmm

Temenides the persecuted King who went north and create 2 kindoms,
1 is the Sparta 
2 is Makedonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurysthenes

This conquest of Peloponnesus by the *Dorians*, commonly called the "*Return of the Heraclidae*," is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical. They represent a joint invasion of Peloponnesus by Aetolians and Dorians, the latter having been driven southward from their original northern home under pressure from the Thessalians.


the name Makedonia is 700 BC 
the name Makednos is before
the name Makedonia has 100 years difference with Dorian monement
the IE R came in Greece before 1800 BC
the Dorian and the Makedonian starting place is common, south-west (dorian-Lokroi) and south east (argeites-Makednoi) of Mt Olymp
the area a was inhabited by Hettites in far anciety, and had similar language with Tyrrshenian (la-pis La-rrisa la-vrys La-tum) and a 100 km south of thessally were the myrmidons,
although Dorians the Argeian Makedonians have sound like Vrygoi (Phrygians) and in West Makedonia it Was Lokroi-Aeolian, 
The east Greek Makedonia was colonised at times of Amyntas and later at 300-400 BC after battles with ancient Thracians, Even today the Limit of Persian Kingdom is known cause in many villages vocabulary we have Persian words, and the tradition of many villages is according Thracian,
in a group of villages even today they will show you the boundaries, and they tell you the story,

the Makedonia DejaVu is mentioning start at 700-800 AD as a slavonization of smaller tribes, ex Romans, and even Greeks but very few the last,
the East Roman Empire was basically Latin and Greek speaking and some parts Armenian or Persian,
That is why Romania is still today speaking Romans lingua,
The wars For Religion leads areas to create new leaders new Bishops and other allies,
the religius wars of Bulgarian exarchate with Con/polis Patriarch create strange situations as for example the Makedonian Dynasty who was Armenian !!!!!! (?)
That dynasty had no claim to throne, so they create a myth from Armenian kings, remember the Iberian kings before, and they were from Thrace, today Bulgaria which that time was named MAkedonia away from Today Makedonia, and the area of today Makedonia was named Thessalonique 
and today Serbia was named Bulgaria, Very later big Kings who raise as Dusan or Simeon etc 
push more the slavonization and the position of Slavonic churches,
After the 4 Crusade wars many Romans Slavs and even Greeks unite and Fight The Francais or Latins,
At that time Greeks unite The Serbian Kings as warriors and serbian and greeks married Between to stop Crusaders and Italiansor Francais, 
search for Boniface de Montferrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonifac..._of_Montferrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Montferrat
At that times as also Later 
we see peculiar things as the division of Greeks to 4 empires fighting each other,
Serbians with Greeks fighting Catholic-Latin Rulers and Crusader, specially in Thessaly and west Makedonia
Serbian Kings with Greek Names, or the opposite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pa...s_%28Despot%29
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Uro%C5%A1*
it was Orthodox Wars against Catholic or Turkish and also National wars
The alliance were strange for Example if a Turk entered they Unite, if a Francais the same,
but if no Entered sometimes they fight among them,

And the most strange Kastrioti,
to whom many sources name he is Greek 
DejaVu and his sources say he was Slavic 
and Albanians say that he was an Albanian,

After that it was the era of Islamic Turkey, 
in that era orthodox christian unite to an Alliance against Turks,,
and that last until 1876 with St Stephan when Russian wanted an Xtra road To mediterean,
The Bulgarian,
That Russian Dream has to Do with Orlov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt
the Bulgarian army was very well equipted from Russia and very strong that almost half Balkans were conquert and fight 4 countries,
After the 1rst WW Russian politic was to create a slavic minority in Aegean sea so avoid Taxes from Istanbul pass and was finished at 1923 with EXCHANGE OF POPULATION BETWEEN GREECE AND BULGARIA,
CITIES LIKE BURGAS SOZOPOL WERE MORE GREEK 
AND VODENA- EDESSA WERE MORE SLAVIC
And the Licence to have Navy Russian Navy at island of Syros,
In WW2 and the communist Expansion and The Greek civil war 
The Demand to Aegean exit of Russian create that situations,
Tito as with Kossovo who epected Albania to be the 7 Yugoslavian Republic Believed also that Salonique will Be the 8 Yugoslavian Republic and create the myth of treaty of 1913 etc 

the fact that in today Fyrom live few Greeks from ex communist party or from Turkish times
as In Greece live a small population (official estimation 28 000, Max votes 7000 the slavic Party in elections)
is small and not even to be mentioned
the exchange of population is even today visible in Petritsi, Tzumagia-_Джумая_, Poroia, Mesimvria-_Nesebăr_, Apolonia Thessalique-Sozopol, Pyrgos-Burgas, etc

The Serbian Greek exchange has to Do with areas From Florina-Lerin And Monaster-Bitola

the fact is that Tito F,,, one of the strongest Alliances in Balkans, The Greek-Serbian that Started at Turkish occupation and reach its max at WW1 and after with Serbian Army to corfu, and Free Serbian zone at the Harbor of Thessalonique, by closing Borders, Denying the Red Cross to give evidence of the Kidnapped Kids at 1948 and claiming ancient Greek Makedonian Lands as Yugoslavian

----------


## DejaVu

*Here are more facts that the people are mixed from many nationalities in todays countries.*

*The Illyrians:*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niw6r...layer_embedded#
*Many Illyrians mixed with Celts and Slavs and many more.*

----------


## DejaVu

*To All Nationalists:*
*This is what happens when your governments falsified the history, you recognize only the history written in your country and thats a big problem when the truth comes out, you just cant handle it.*
*Self-determination does not exist in your way of thinking (Undemocratic).*

----------


## DejaVu

*The Macedonian-Greek conflict.*
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ma.../conflict.html
The Macedonian-Greek conflict is a very complex issue. Lots of books have been written about Macedonia, but many of them simply serve to justify the aspirations, propaganda, and the partition of Macedonia of 1913, by the neighboring countries such as Greece. These sources are, therefore, biased. *The Greek pages about Macedonia rely strictly on their very own Greek propaganda sources, which naturally makes them biased. In order to find the real truth* *about Macedonia, one has to rely on the independent and neutral sources when looking into history.* This page is such case, which browses historical independent and neutral facts, to show the truth about Macedonia against the century-old Greek propaganda. 
Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia and became a sovereign state by a popular referendum held in September 1991 when the majority of voters chose independence. Greece immediately demanded from the international community not to recognize the country under its name Macedonia. 

*Greece alleges that:* 
1. The Macedonians should not be recognized as Macedonians because the Macedonians have been of Greek nationality since 2000 BC.
2. Those Macedonians whose language belongs to the Slavic family of languages, must not call themselves Macedonians because 4000 years ago, the Macedonians spoke Greek and still speak nothing but Greek.
3. Macedonia has no right to call itself by this name because Macedonia has always been and still is a region of Greece.

*The people of Macedonia (FYROM) affirm that:*
1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to the modern Macedonians today.
2. The ancient Macedonians regarded the ancient Greeks as neighbors, not as kinsmen. The Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners ("barbarians") whose native language was Macedonian, not Greek.
3. Macedonia was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, ancient Greece was subjected to Macedonia. In 1913, modern Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia. If today a portion of Macedonia belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.

----------


## Elias2

> 3. Macedonia was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, ancient Greece was subjected to Macedonia. In 1913, modern Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia. If today a portion of Macedonia belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.


Illegal partition? How so? The treaty was illegal somehow? or are you just buthurt that balgaria lost the second balkan war? In anycase, your not an ethnic macedonian because they do not exist. Self determination is not built on lies. I live in Canada but I'm not a native Huron person, nor can I claim that I am just because I live in the area they once lived in.

Grow up Tito is dead. Macedonian by nationality? sure, by ethnicity, you're a comedian.

----------


## iapetoc

well 
lets put it Different

*1 The MAKEDONIANS* 

*a.* The Makedonians is an Ancient Greek tribe that lives in the area of today Greek Makedonia, relatives of Dorian Greek, 
The named the Makedonia after their name and ancestor Makednos,
*b.* Their Kings were The Argeians Dynasty,
They Unite with Aeolians of today Greek West Makedonia at 370 BC
Under King Amyntas, and they colonised conquer East Greek Makedonia at times of Kings Phillip
*c.* THE MAKEDONIANS NEVER INHABITED PAEONIA AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO,
THE MAKEDONIANS RESPECT THE INDEPENDENCE OF NEIGHBORS AS LONG AS THEY RESPECT OUR INDEPENDENCE

*2 THE FYROMIANS*

*a.* Fyrom is an Independent state that is inhabited by Slavic people which name them selfs Makedonians, they took their name after the land, and the treaty of 1913 (Bucurest)
*b.* Fyrom people have nothing to do with Ancient Makedonian Tribe, since their origin and land is Paeonia and their culture is Slavic, and their Kings like Stephan Dusan or Simeon or Samuel are Slavic kings either Serbian or Bulgarian which conquered the land of ancient Makedonians, and claim the title, but had nothing to do with ancient Makedonians.
*c.* Fyrom claims Land and culture of Greek Makedonia which is a hostile stand,

*3 GENETICALLY THERE IS ENOUGH DIFFERENCE AMONG FYROM AND MAKEDONIA,*

*4 AN EXCHANGE OF POPULATION WAS DONE IN 1923 AMONG GREECE AND YUGOSLAVIAN FEDERATION (FYROM) AND BULGARIA, SO THERE IS NO MINORITY IN ANY OF THESE 4 LANDS-States

Self DETERMINATION IS NOT A CLAIMING IDEA, OR A WILLINGLY DETERMINATION,
I CAN'T DETERMINE MY SELF AS A RUSSIAN OR A SCOTTISH, 
CAUSE THEN I LIVE IN AN ANOTHER WORLD, 

THAT IS THE RESULTS OF NATIONALIST PROPAGANDA WHOSE TENSIONS IS IMPERIALISM AND EXPANSIONS, 
and is every where in every country, But sometimes overpass the limits, if I Immigrate to Germany, and change passport that makes me a citizen, but not a German, my children or my grand children if they stay then have the right to self-determinate as Germans and not Greeks


besides even in your documents you see Greek citizens, even if they were according church, they existed in Makedonia in Ottomans and Turkish Times census, as also existed Slavic people mainly named as Bulgarians. 

 the 2 ethnicities Greek and Bulgarian(officially) or Greek and Slavic Makedonian(unofficially) proves that at 1900 there was 3 different nations, Turks, Greeks, And Slavic Populations,
THAT IS A FACT YOU CAN'T DENY

*the Greeks did not invade or conquer one day, at 1900
*they didn't wake one morning and decided lets go take Makedonia from Fyrom-ians, at 1912
they live in Makedonia since more than 3000 years*
understand that, my family lives here, they didn't came from outerspace at 1900

Even the Turks admit that minor Asia was inhabited by Greeks, even the Bulgarians admit that many cities in Black sea was build by Greeks,
the only one that Denies all is Fyrom, find out why.

*Exchange of population* was done so avoid future wars,
There is no Minority among Fyrom and Greece, cause the exchange had that purpose, to create more clear national states, Greeks left Monaster-Bitola, and Fyromians left Florina-Lerin.
*that was done to avoid future claims and wars*,

----------


## DejaVu

*AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.* 

**

*Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:*

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905. 
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903. 
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941. 

*Macedonian Slavs* (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

*Serbs* 
-
-
-

*Bulgarians* 
-
-
-

*Greeks* (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

*Turks and others* 
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



*Statistics without "Macedonians"*
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them. 

*1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:*
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

*2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:*
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

*Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic.* In Macedonia at _that_ moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered _Muslims, Jews,_ and the _Christian_ Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows. 

*3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia* *occupied by Greece in 1913** lived:*
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

*Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased.* The League of the Nations _had not visited_ Aegean Macedonia and did not participate _at all_ in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. 


*Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population*
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

*Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)*
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

*Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)*
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

*Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)*
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


*Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia* 
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia". 

*How many Macedonians remained in Greece?*
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens: 
_"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."_
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's. 
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

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## DejaVu

Facsimile of the periodical *Macedonian*_ Voice_ published in St.Petersburg (Russia) in 1913-1914 with Sarafov's heading.

*We Macedonians are not Serbians nor Bulgars but simply Macedonians. The Macedonian people (narod) exists separate from the Bulgarian and the Serbian. We feel with both and the one that helps our liberation we'll thank but neither should forget that Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians."* 
*Boris Sarafov, 1902* 
*Austrian, Karl Hron*_"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..."_ and: 
_"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language"._

*Henry Brailsford, Macedonia: its Races and their Future*
_"Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars? The question is constantly asked and dogmatically answered in Belgrade and Sofia. But the lesson of history is obviously that there is no answer at all. They are not Serbs, for their blood can hardly be purely Slavonic... On the other hand, they can hardly be Bulgarians... They are very probably very much what they were before either a Bulgarian or a Serbian Empire existed - a Slav people derived from various stocks, who invaded the peninsula at different periods."_

*The famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:*
"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"

*William E. Gladstone*
_"... Next to the Ottoman government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the states already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians."_

Gladstone was three times elected Prime Minister of England (1868 -1874; 1880 - 1885 and 1893 - 1894). He supported the Macedonian nation in its quest for freedom. Perhaps Macedonia would have gained its independence had this man been once again elected Prime Minister during the big Ilinden Uprising on August 2, 1903. Left without any support, the uprising was crushed by the Turks, followed by the massacre on the innocent Macedonian population. 






*From La Macédoine et les Macédoniens, by Edmond Bouchié de Belle [E.B.de Belle], published in Paris (Librairie Armand Colin), 1922, completed in 1918. Translated from the French by Stavros N. Karageorgis C.Phil. Sociology UCLA. Original pages: 40-44.*

Part I: Macedonia and the Macedonians Chapter 1: The disputed race: The Macedonian peasant

*1- The Macedonian nationality*
In the entire countryside of Macedonia, one finds a race of peasants, speaking a Slavonic dialect, of Greek Orthodox religion, which presents most of the ethnic outward signs customary of the Slav peoples. These poor people have the unenviable privilege of being claimed by three different nationalities. - "The Macedonians", say the Bulgarians, "are Bulgarians. They have such a language and such a heart. It was the entire Christendom of European Turkey which comprised the 'Great Bulgaria' created by the Treaty of San Stefano. It is under the Bulgarian name that the victims of the Treaty of Berlin fought against the Turkish yoke". -"The Macedonians are Serbs", replies an equally ardent voice. "It is all of Macedonia which included the Empire of Dussan the Great. It is the Serbian name which the literature and monuments that traversed the Ottoman domination invoke. The Macedonian language is not Bulgarian, as the mal-intentioned ignorants say, it is old Serbian, Serbian arrested in its development. Moreover, have you ever seen Bulgarians celebrating the Slava? Yet, the Macedonians do celebrate it." Now come the Greeks who declare the Macedonians, if not Hellenes by origin, or even by language, at least hellenised by culture. "It is not blood," they say, "but the spirit which creates a race. The barbarian Slavs who conquered Macedonia were organized, and provided with law and order, by the Greek Empire, converted by the Greek Church. We can speak of them as Greeks the same way we speak of the French as Latin. The Macedonians would not have their own ethnic character except for the fact that the dispute of which they are the object had given them one, at least provisionally. One should not perhaps, in fact, take on-the-field part in the quarrel, but at least one fact is undeniable; that is, these people exist, and that one had better attribute a name to them. Being a 'contested people' forms, in sum, an international status equivalent to that of 'contested territory'. But, an observer of good faith will go a bit further. He will state easily that if the Macedonian has a lot in common with the Slavs of the Balkans, he has absolutely nothing in common with the Hellene. What's more, if by some customs, worship, and language traits he resembles a Bulgarian, by others, he resembles the Serb, and is not identified exactly either with the one or with the other. Besides, that which makes a Bulgarian, a Serb, a Greek is, more than any ethnic or linguistic particularity, the conscience he has of his nationality and his participation in an organized national life. Yet, the people in question distinguishes itself from the three other peoples by the fact that it has neither national conscience nor national life. Ask a peasant from around Ostrovo or Monastir what/who he is! He will, nine times out of ten, reply 'Makedon'. But, this declaration does not at all have the character of a profession of patriotic faith. The questioned may equally simply have answered by "My name is Dimitri'. He states that he is an inhabitant of Macedonia, and that's all. An observer of good faith will therefore set apart this population as that to which the name "Macedonian Slavs" or simply 'Macedonians' appeared to suit them best.

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## DejaVu

_http://www.gate.net/~mango/20thC_Docs.htm_
_Documents on the Struggle of the Macedonian People for Indipendence and Nation-State_ 
1902 
Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902
1902
Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev ...Let us not expect freedom either from the Greeks or the Bulgarians; it is we, the Macedonians, who should fight for our Macedonia ourselves... Neobjaveno pismo, Nova Makedonija, (Skopje), XXIV, nbr.7744 (May 5 1968), p.8
1897
William Gladstone ...Next to the Ottoman Govt. nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy then jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for Macedonians, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians. And if they are small and weak, let them bind themselves together for defence, so that they may not be devoured by others, either great and small, which would probably be the effect of their quarreling among themselves. The Times (London), 6th January 1897, p.12
1900
A. Brutus (A. Drandar): Concerning a movement in Macedonia A considerable section of the European press does not cease to inform us of the immense sufferings undergone by the Christian population of Macedonia....It was the sad fate of that population that made us publish this booklet, based upon our experience and personal observations I had acquired impartially, as a foreigner, during my stay in Macedonia of several years...If one takes a retrospective view of the history of Macedonia to the most ancient of times, one remains amazed by the great role this small country, this classical country par excellance, played in the world....The Macedonian, born in a land to which nature was so favorable, has always longed for heroic feats and aspired to great deeds...Even the glorious cradle of Ancient Hellenism is subjected to the Macedonian kings...We find Macedonians on the Byzantine throne at the time when this empire was at its peak. Following the course of history, we see how the star of Macedonia shone with the same intensity. It plays the chief role in the revival of the Slav people. Thus, the two brothers exalted to apostles, Cyril and Methodius, objects of general admiration for the Slav world, are Macedonians, and owing to the very existence of these two apostles, this small land becomes the cradle of the Slav people to whom it gives its religion and art...The inhabitants of Macedonia do not want to be annexed either to Bulgaria or Serbia, or Greece; they want, they want so strongly, to live a human life in an autonomous country. Their slogan is: Macedonia to the Macedonians. A. Brutus, A Propos d'un Mouvement en Macedonie, Bruxelles 1900, pp.12-13, 15, 56.
1901
A.V. Amfiteatrov: The Land of Discord Each Slav should and is obliged to feel sympathy for Macedonian freedom. But Macedonian freedom cannot be achieved with their own, Macedonian means. The land is too small and weak to fight against the power of Constantinople, which only has to give a sign and tens of thousands of soldiers will attack the Rumalian vilayets and strangle them like mice before Europe could compose itself, even before Europe could know it. Hence, Macedonia cannot be freed with its own forces. Only an evil enemy, an unconscious enemy of Slavism could desire an armed movement in Macedonia now when the land is totally unprepared for an uprising, in circumstances of tied hands of the whole Europe, of Serbo-Bulgarian clashes, of huge preparations of the Turks against the slightest possibilities of movement. Or a real fool. These were the exact words of one of the high-ranking persons deciding the fate of Balkan Slavism in a discussion with me concerning the Macedonian committees. Nobody in Europe, none of the Great Powers can actively intercede in favor of the Macedonians against the Turks at the present moment - except, perhaps, Austria. Bu the very name of Austria causes panic in the Macedonian Slav element, who will allow Austria to reign in Macedonia? For it would be the destruction of all ideas of pan-Slavism, it would be the end of the Eastern Question, it would be the decisive and last victory of the German world over the Slav world. Then, we the Russians, would only be humbly left to falling out of step with that state with the projected historical tasks, with the repudiation of racial ideals - a state similar to modern Italy or Spain, only in greater proportions. The young Slav states, adjacent to Macedonia, are too young and too poor to go into struggle for it. At the same time, these states are disintegrating both from the internal situation and external family hostilities. The Bulgarians and the Serbians cannot stand each other; each consider Macedonia as their lawful property. Neither the Bulgarians nor the Serbs have even the slightest desire to create Macedonia for Macedonia. Enthusiast for an autonomous Macedonia can only be found among the Macedonian natives. Neither the Serb nor the Bulgarian wants the autonomy of Macedonia. As far as the question of whether Macedonia should become Bulgarian or Serbian is concerned, every Bulgarian would tell you with utter sincerity: -It would be better that the Turks ruled there eternally then to give the Serbs a chance to spread towards the Aegean Sea. And the Serb would say: - It would be better that the Turks did there whatever they allow your damned brothers to achieve their Greater Bulgaria from one sea to the other! The question of nationality has not been settled in Macedonia and it is hard to assume that it will ever be settled in a satisfactory manner. If we are to believe Gopcevic and Jasterbov there are almost no Bulgarians - all of the are Serbs. If we are to believe Ofejkov and Miljukov, there are no Serbs, all of them are Bulgarians. It is more probable that where we are dealing with a perfectly branch of Slavs, transitional between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. But that branch taken alone is insufficiently significant to win its freedom and turn itself into a state unit. Consequently, no matter how the question of its nationality is resolved, it is deprived of the possibility to exist, so to say; it is cursed in itself to serve as political material directly for its neighbors, and deviously and indirectly for Europe, which governs its naighbours. The basic reason for the failures of the Macedonian revolutionary organization lies in the fact that it is fed by means that have historically proved their ineffectiveness against state order of a European kind to overthrow the system and authority that have nothing in common with European order; since with the tactics, which have overthrown many European government, it attempts to erase military slavery, which has continued in Macedonia and Old Serbia for five centuries now; since the arms, victorious in the civil war, are also used in external war, because the Turk is not a fellow-citizen and compatriot of the Slavs, but he was, is and will be their external enemy... - They consider me a Bulgarophile, I.A. Zinovjev told me. But it isn't so at all. I behave in perfectly equal manner to all Slavs, and, if a person is decent and likable, it is all the same to me whether he is a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Macedonian. But I am a Russian representative and I have been sent here to protect, first of all, Russian interests. Permanent patronage over the Balkan Slavs is inseparably linked with Russian interests. We are their natural patrons. But this patronage does not mean Russia's following of Slav leaders; patronage is not characterless yielding. However, as far as the Macedonian question is concerned, the Bulgarians, as our most spoilt children in the whole of the Slav world, would like precisely to lead Russia with them where they have blindly started closing their eyes, demanding that the patronage be turned into yielding. The activities of the Macedonian committees, long under the patronage (with) our tolerance of the Bulgarian government, had the following direct calculation: - We shall force the Turks to abandon their reserved behavior they have taken up and borne with difficulty - wit a series of small explosions, murders and blackmails we shall arose the fanatic excitement of the Moslems, the Sultan will be forced to give in to the demands of his subjects of the same faith, and Turkish atrocities will start in Macedonia, blood will be shed, villages will be burnt. For the attainment of the sublime goal it is of no consequence whether fifty or fifty thousand people will be killed - the main thing is: slaughter must be caused, which will in turn cause the necessity of European intervention, and since the protection of the Slavs is the perennial deed of Russia and it will never leave the Macedonian question to Austria - consequently, volens-nolens, Russia shall have to send again hundred of thousands of soldiers to the Balkan Peninsula and achieve the freedom of Macedonia with its bayonets, i.e. it should put the land into the mouth of the Bulgarians. For they don't recognize any other nationality in Macedonia except the Bulgarian one. Consequently, the future freedom of Macedonia for them is either the fulfillment of the Treaty of San Stefano and unification of Macedonia with the Bulgarian Principality, or a creation of a new autonomous Bulgarian body, which will sooner or later be merged with the former into an 'integral Bulgaria'.... Cvetan Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, Skopje 1978, pp.189-190,193-194.
1903
Victor Berard on the Macedonians. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the Macedonians. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the Macedonians. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.
1904
A Macedonian Theory Was it so long before the liberation of the Bulgarians that throughout Bulgaria, in answer to the question as to what they were (by nationality), the Bulgarians said they were "Christians" or raya (non-Moslem Turkish subjects)?And even now it is not so rare on occasion to hear a Bulgarian answering in court as to the question of his nationality that he is a "Christian". The notion of nationality has still not become a new accomplishment of his mind. During the Turkish period, the Bulgarian peasant referred to the Bulgarians in the towns as "Greeks" and city lother were "Greek dress" for him. And since the Greeks designated that peasant as a "fat-headed Bulgar", his brother from the town loved to be called a "Hellene", so that he should not be scorned for his real national name. It is not exactly the same case with what Mr. Misirkov elaborates concerning the name of the Macedonian Slav? The name "Bulgar" fell even in Bulgaria to such position which earned only the contempt of the others. This name appeared so empty even in the mouth of the Bulgarians themselves that it became a synonym for "Christian"; the later designated the whole ethnic contents of Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. When our peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox. The Russian Tsar was a "Bulgarian Tsar" for him not by nationality, but by Orthodox Christianity. A. Teodorov-Balan, Edna makedonska teorija - Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818
1907-1908
The Macedonian Villages ...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in Macedonia the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was Macedonian, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike. And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit that they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth their dialect, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the Macedonians thought they are Macedonians. Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp. 204-205
June 25, 1910
Archimandrite Neophyte in Skopje to Bulgarian Exarch Joseph in Constantinople: Starting from some time ago, as I have already informed You several times, matters in the eparchy, and especially here have not developed as they should. The Eparchy Council, which, as You know, consists of the town's elders, has decided to send You a letter in which it strongly condemns the candidature of the former Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, and among other things, upon my suggestion writes the following in the protest: "Outraged, we read in the newspapers that a group of villains wishes at any cost to urge the population - the voters of the Skopje Eparchy - to bring back that typical intransigent, Theodosious, as the Metropolitan of the Skopje Eparchy. This is the same Theodosius who 17 or 18 years ago wanted to separate the Skopje Eparchy from the Exarchate and proclaim himself an independent Metropolitan. For this purpose, he then made a special seal on which he deleted the words "Bulgarian Exarchate", so sacred to us, and printed his own baptismal certificates, marriage certificates and other documents; he did not fulfill the circular letters and the orders of the Exarchate, etc. Yet, since at that time there were not such a strong anti-Bulgarian movement among the local Bulgarians, it was possible for the Exarchate to remove this dangerous schismatic in time and thereby preserve the unity of the Bulgarian Church in Turkey. Now this same schismatic, contrary to Exarchist interests, wishes to restore his eparchy and continue his dishonest business of disuniting our Bulgarian people. We protest most strongly against his nomination as Metropolitan of Skopje, because he insults the Bulgarian feeling among the population". Unfortunately, Your Grace, if the Eparchy Council has such people with common sense, this is not the case with some craftsman's circles, which have come under the influence of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov, a teacher, who has taken the idea into his head that he is a leader of the people. He constantly speaks against the Exarchate and its leadership, including myself, and urges the craftsman to support Metropolitan Theodosios' candidature, since he once suffered for defending the interests of the Macedonians. It would not be superfluous if I informed You about another problem, which, I presume, will represent a kind of plot in this whole election propaganda. I have understood from some members of the Council that Krste Petkov, who at one time started "Misirkovism", had requested from certain relative of his, living here in Skopje, that he put him in touch with this teacher, Petar Pop Arsov, in connection with collecting songs about Krale Marko in the Skopje district, and Mr. Pop Arsov was so kind as to agree immediately. I am writing this to you, Your Grace, a justified suspicion that schismatic forces are being brought to life here. The said Mr. Krste Misirkov expressed in a letter to his relative has desire to return to Macedonia, more precisely, to come to Skopje as soon as Macedonia was liberated. The man wished to be a professor at the Skopje university (?!). If this is true, and there are no reasons for lying to me, then You may conclude Yourself what danger threatens the Bulgarian idea in these historic times. Just imagine if the "Misirkovism" of Mr. Krste, the "separatism' of His Grace Theodosius and the "autonomism" of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov joined together! I am of the opinion, Your Grace, upon the basis of the protest by the Eparchy Council (which was, after all, published in the press) that the candidature of His Grace Theodosius should be withdrawn, by which a danger of as yet unseen proportions for the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia would be evaded. I remain Your Grace's younger brother in Jesus Christ and I pray for You. S. Dimevski, Diskusija - K.P. Misirkov i nacionalno-kulturniot razvoj na makedonskiot narod do Osloboduvanjeto - Zbornik Misirkov. Simpozium. Skopje, Institut za makedonski jazik, 1975, pp.338-339. 1905(?) 
Sveta Simic, representative of the Kingdom of Serbia in Bulgaria, to Jovan Jovanovich-Pizon, head of the consular department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Belgrade. D. Gruev again visited me last Saturday. D. Hristov also chanced to be in my house, so we spent more then 3 hours in discussion. The Macedonians have been afraid that the Bulgarians and we agreed to divide them, and accordingly they are the only ones left to frown at the Imperial Alliance. They suspect it hides something else. They continually make agreements and preparations but undertake nothing more serious. They constantly send smaller bands and ammunition into their country. All their activity is reduced to this only in present. They would like to make an agreement with us, but such as to sacrifice nothing of what they call their autonomy. They have come to see more and more that there are obstacles before them which they cannot fight successfully, and under the influence of which they continually lose their importance as an authoritative factor in the development of the Maced(onian) question. This is what hurts them immensely. They are divided among themselves, just as before. The differences of their views also intensify their personal hatred, which makes some of them avoid the others, plotting among themselves....Unfavorable rumors reach us from Macedonia, too. The people, craving for freedom, would like to reject their yoke and uncertainty as soon as possible, so that they would be ready for some decisive steps as well, but their distrust both of their leaders and Bulgaria prevent them. Under the influence of the news about the Imperial Alliance a mood has been created in which they would like to be freed from their yoke at any cost, even if they were compelled to come under Bulgaria and Serbia. And if these two did not help them, they would gladly accept Austrian occupation, as well... Arhiv SFR Jugoslavije (Belgrade) - Fond Jovan Jovanovic-Pizon, 80 (1905).
1906
To my brother in arms, Dushan, voyvoda from the village of Bistrica Brother, you should know that I have received your letter and understood all that you wrote me. We have put the people in great trouble, it is true, but who is to blame for this? You say we are to blame, we say you are to blame. As far as I know, ten years have passed (and) has never been over those years any bloodshed between ourselves or division into Serbomans or Bulgarophils. We have been Macedonian fighters and we will fight to the end for the Macedonian people, but we do not fight for Bulgaria or Serbia, nor Greece; they are free and live freely and drink in shaded inns; they have the right to drink so since they shed their blood earlier. We, who come from this Macedonian land should work for Macedonia, because our Macedonian brothers are murdered on the roads and our Macedonian sisters are disgraced by the bloody Turk, by the fat Turk. We are not against any nationality of either Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece; we should recognize the merit of those who would help us. If there had been any Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek land here, they should not have waited for us to die in the mountains but should have liberated Macedonia with their armies; only then they could have demanded Serbia, Bulgarian or Greek land here... Blazhe Krusheski DA SSID - Fond Izvrshnog odbora Srpske narodne organizacije F-6 (1906)
1912
A.V. Amfiteatrov: Macedonia ...Following the Russian war, Turkey of the old regime finally turned into a "sick man", and the heirs of the executors of the expected will gathered around his death-bed. The future destiny of Macedonia came to depend not as much on the will of Turkey itself as on the sympathies of the European guardians. In the 19th century Europe learned through Germany, Italy and Greece to consider the right to national self-determination a little. Thus, all the states and countries bordering on Macedonia have started intensive propaganda in favor of their nationalities, as it were a race or along jump for an award. They have taken care, as much as they have means and power, to persuade Europe by truth and lies, that allegedly the national self-determination of the Macedonian inclines in their favor, and not in favor of the neighboring nation. In this respect the Bulgarians proved more swift the their rivals. In order to make Macedonia Bulgarian, they had to Bulgarize the Macedonians. Thus, following the Bulgaro-Serbian War of 1885, the greatest powers and considerable sacrifices of the Bulgarian state apparatus were given to the Bulgarization of the Macedonian Slavs. Bulgarian agents were the priests and the teachers; the comitajis and band-members became the secret government of the country and, allegedly, its soul. In the beginning the propaganda was exceedingly successful. Miljukov, who visited Macedonia towards the end of the nineties, looked at it too much through Bulgarian glasses and - so to say - proclaimed all the Macedonians to be full-blooded Bulgarians. But his mistake can be considered as made with clear conscience. He found Macedonia so profoundly and brilliantly Bulgarized that it is no wonder that he took the clothes for the body - the culture for the nationality. Those who have read The Land of Discord know my view about the Macedonians. They are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians, but a primordial Slav people with simple basic language which is to a great degree able to be subject to any form offered by another, more influential and more developed Slav culture. There are Macedonian Bulgarians where the Bulgarian school and Church are firmly established, and Serbs where literacy is in the hands of the Serbs. They could have been turned with the same ease, under the influence of education, religion and commerce, into Little Russians, Great Russians or Poles. Their language is melted metal which can easily be molded into any kindred form. But - a related one. So, it is national kinship which is the main reason for making Macedonia a center of confrontation between the Slavs and for destroying the Greek influence in it. Statistics about Macedonia are confusing, tendentious and fantastic. In spite of that, even according to Greek sources, it is easy to see the Hellenes represent a minority in the Macedonian vilayets. As a result of this and aiming to create a majority, the Greeks had to resort to sufficiently unscrupulous falsifications, counting all Slav Patriarchists as Greeks. These are Slavs who have not acknowledged the Exarchate but remained faithful to the Constatinople Patriarchate, although they speak only Slavic. In this way the Greeks have come to understand one's nationality in the same manner as the Turks - religion equals nationality. A patriarchist - means a Greek... C. Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, pp.210-211.
1912
Bulgarian statesman Dimitar Rizov on his nationality ....In the golden months of the successful beginning of the war against the Turks, he spoke to me as a convinced Yugoslav (South Slav). He explained to me, I being a Croat, the real situation of matters in Macedonia and said that it was shame that the first free Slav state had not been founded in Macedonia, which would equally attract to union the Bulgarians and the Serbs, and would be a bond and not a cause of discord between the Serbs and the Bulgarians...He told me that the Macedonians, to tell the objective truth, were neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, but Macedonian Slavs who spoke in their own individual Macedonian language or dialect. ..."Our people", he said, "were only 'Macedonian Christians,' and then, when Greek propaganda developed they become 'Macedonian Christian Slavs'. It was all the same to us which Christian country would help us to free ourselves from the Turks. I was born in Bitola. There were several grammar-schools in Bitola: Turkish, Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian. It was all the same to us, the Slavs, which Slav grammar-school we attended. For example, alongside many of my friends who later became Bulgarians, I attended the Serbian grammar-school. It is true that the teachers in the grammar-school told we were Serbs, just as those in the Bulgarian grammar-school were told that we were Bulgarians, but we kept our own counsel, and that was what our parents told us at home: it does not matter, let them talk, but we are Macedonian Christian Slavs..." Ivan Meshtrovic, famous Croatian sculptor, Uspomene na politichke ljude i dogagjaje. Zagreb 1969, pp. 25-26, 39.
March 1, 1913
Memorandum on the Independence of Macedonia submitted by the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg to the Conference of the representatives of the Great Powers in London. ...it is more suitable for all the neighbors of Macedonia that this country remain undivided, since by any division, sections of our living compatriots will remain under foreign authority and will perish. The Macedonians have won their right to self-determination over their whole recent history, as well...The Serbs and the Bulgarians deliberately say nothing about these huge Macedonian victories and permit nobody to write about them...As a result of all this, the Macedonian Colony in St.Petersburg, fulfilling its sacred duty towards its fatherland and conscientiously applying the slogan "Macedonia to the Macedonians", protests and cannot remain indifferent when the allied Balkan states (Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece) - our brothers in blood and faith - aim to dismember our fatherland....Here is what is needed for the Macedonian people; 1. Macedonia should remain a single, indivisible and independent Balkan state with it geographic, ethnographic, historical, economic and political borders. 2. A Macedonian national assembly should be established on the basis of general elections in Salonika in the soonest possible time, which would work out in detail the internal structure of the state and determine its relations with the neighboring states. Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg 1913-1914
1913
Nace Dimov Chupovski: A Political Survey of Macedonia and the Macedonians. In examining the Macedonian question from the political point of view, I shall not deal with the old times....Condemned at first to Roman rule, and then to Byzantine oppression, and finally to Turkish slavery, the terrible name of Macedonian found shelter from generation to generation in Macedonian hearts only...In the same towns and villages, the priests that receive salary from the Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those that receive salary from the Serbian Metropolitan office call themselves Serbians...Besides, the Macedonians were always allies and participants both in the liberation of the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians....From all that has been previously mentioned, I dare say that the Macedonians have a one hundred percent right to autonomy and not to being subjected to dismembering among the Greeks, the Serbs and Bulgarians. Disregarding this fact, the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian governments, aiming to extend their frontiers into Macedonians territory, spare no means and exterminate the Macedonians who refuse to call themselves Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians...The Macedonian people will not reconcile themselves either with those who aspire to deprive them of their language, customs and the natural desire to be free masters of their own house. Hence, only if the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians renounce their aspirations will Macedonia live in a friendly way .... N.D. Dimov, Istoricheskii ocherk Makedonii i makedonskih slavjan - Peterburg, 1913
June 7, 1913
To the Governments and the Public of the Allied Balkans States The Macedonians have continually, over the centuries, risen up and fought for independence and freedom, and by their persistent struggle aided the liberation of Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria....More then on hundred thousand Macedonian fighters have fought shoulder to shoulder with the allied armies....Instead of Macedonia, celebrated by Alexander of Macedon, consecrated by the Apostle St. Paul, dignified by the activity of the holy brothers SS. Cyril and Methodius....instead of united, integral and free Macedonia, European diplomacy, and alongside it, you, too, our brothers - allies and liberators, are tearing us into pieces and defiling our sacred ideals....Remember, brother Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, that you were reborn to start a new life only after 14 bloody wars of Russia against the Ottoman Empire...Remember that a dismembered Macedonia will be an eternal apple of discord among you. Remember that also in the past times of history one after another state perished in the struggle for Macedonia and do not continue the bloody list of the dead in the present time.... Macedonia should be an independent state within its ethnographic, geographical, cultural and historical boundaries, with a government accountable to a national assembly...a national representative body should be established...in the city of Salonika, elected by general vote. Brother allies and liberators! We hope that our words will reach your hearts and minds.... St. Petersburg Signed by the authorized representatives Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg, pp. 52-55
September 5, 1913
Dimitrija Chupovski: What did Bulgaria represent for Macedonia The Bucharest Conference of the Balkan states completely destroyed Article 23 of the Berlin Congress which stipulated the introduction of reforms in Macedonia as a self-governing province of Turkey. At the time this stipulation gave wings to the hopes of the Macedonians for the possibility of creating an autonomous Macedonia and proved to be a counter-balance to the stipulations of the Treaty of San Stefano, which defaced Macedonia by its inclusion within the boundaries of Greater Bulgaria. However, regardless of the stipulations of the Berlin Congress, the Treaty of San Stefano constantly instigated the Bulgarians to actions for creating a Greater Bulgaria at the expanse of Macedonia and they continually spent millions of rubles for agitation in Macedonia by opening their own, purely Bulgarian, schools and churches. As a result of this, Bulgaria began regarding itself as the only future liberator of Macedonia, comparing its role in the cause of the liberation of macedonia with the role of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War. We, however, cannot agree at all with such a comparison....Russia was Bulgaria's liberator, and accordingly, to compare its role with the role of Bulgaria in the present war is, at the very least, absurd and ridiculous for our contemporaries, before whose eyes this tragicomedy was being acted. The role of Bulgaria as regards to Macedonia was from the very beginning criminal; it was first to violate...the article of the Berlin Treaty which bound Turkey to introduce reforms in Macedonia. Moreover, carrying out unbearable, extremely chauvinist, propaganda among the Macedonians through its Constantinople Patriarchate, Bulgaria was the first to cause rivalry and the introduction of similar propaganda by the Greeks and the Serbs, thus instilling discord among the Macedonians. During the whole 30 years of its existence as a state, Bulgaria has carried out anti-Macedonian policy. Flattering and attracting the Macedonians to its side. at the same time it persecuted them with ferocity and hatred and strove to destroy in them any idea of an autonomous Macedonia; while doing so, the Bulgarians did not shrink from using any means. Thus, in 1888, the Bulgarian Government destroyed the 'Macedonian Literary Society' under the presidency of Georgi Pulevski....Two years later, in that same Sofia, the Bulgarian Government closed the evening schools, specially opened for the emigrant Macedonian craftsman, and the heads of those schools. Macedonian patriots - Damjan Gruev, Delchev, Petre Pop Arsov and many others - were expelled from Bulgaria. In addition, let us consider just those persecution to which the so-called Internal Macedonian Organization was exposed, working on the spiritual revival of Macedonia and its political liberation. Its members were persecuted both by the Bulgarian government and the Exarchate, the local instrument of those governments. In order to paralyze the successes resulting from the activity of the Internal Macedonian Organization, the Bulgarian government formed with Macedonian emigrant a requisite counter-Macedonian organization (made of the dregs(?) of society), known under the name of the Supreme Macedonian-Adrianople Committee, the task of which was to trumpet to the whole world that Macedonia is a purely Bulgarian country. Who does not know the shameful role of this Committee shown through its activity on the partition of Macedonia as a whole and of the Macedonian intelligentsia in particular? Guided by the Bulgarian government through its teachers and generals of the type of Mihajlovski and Conchev, this Committee acted against the Macedonian liberation movement and worked with all means on the annexation of macedonia to Bulgaria. Still more criminal was the role of Bulgaria in this shameful 'liberation' war. Did not Bulgaria hold long negotiations concerning the division of Macedonia with its present occupiers? Did it not, according to the treaty of 29th February 1912 with the Serbs, give to them the whole western section of Macedonia and thus violate its integrity? Did not Bulgaria, which attracted Greece, too, to the Serbo-Bulgarian alliance, start to divide Macedonia? Could it not know that the Greeks might join the alliance only because they had in mind the acquisition of the southern section of Macedonia? Is not Bulgaria to be blamed for the partition of Macedonia, hiding the real aim of the war from the representatives of the Macedonian people, which it had to reckon with. On the contrary, starting the war, it declared to the Macedonians that it was fighting against Turkey alongside the allies for their liberation. Allowing the Macedonians to organize themselves into military units, Bulgaria committed a hunderdfold crime, because it did not allow them to fight against Turkey in their native land, but directed them to Thrace, towards the shore of the Sea of Marmara, under the walls of Adrianople and the trenches of Chataldzha, which weren't needed, except for a bunch of Bulgarian glory-hunters; and the happened at the same time when the allied Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks were conquering Macedonia. How can we explain this criminal act of the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians, if not by the fear that those same Macedonians with arms in their hands would defend their homeland equally from any encroachments upon its independence? But in fact Bulgaria thus ruined not only Macedonia but also all its future. Shedding now crocodile tears for the lost Macedonia, did Bulgaria at the proper time make any attempt to preservethe indivisibility of Macedonia, which it likes to call its younger sister?How can some Bulgarian patriots claim that Bulgaria was in respect to Macedonia that biblical mother which appeared before Solomon's court? Would not a mother worthy of setting an example rather prefer to renounce her own son in only he could thus remain intact? However, as we all know, Bulgaria was the first to agree to the partition of Macedonia.Why has not Bulgaria up to this moment acted like a real "native mother" with her unselfishness, with motherly generosity towards macedonia, with a project for its autonomy? This is exactly the attitude of Bulgaria which could have ensured the integrity and indivisibility of macedonia, peace among the Balkan peoples and would have preserved the dignity of the "native mother" herself - Bulgaria. What hindered it, having included the item about the autonomy of Macedonia in the treaty, from raising at the proper time the question about the realization of that item? Nobody hinder it at all, but it did not make any attempts itself to raise this question. It did not make this attempt after the end of the first half of the war, when it realized that its allies of yesterday, the Serbs and the Greeks, having occupied Macedonia, would not like to leave it.And instead of submitting a project for autonomy, it decided to go to war, in order to gain as great as possible a section of Macedonia for itself.Even following the defeat, when the question was posed not for Macedonia but for Bulgaria itself - I am referring here to the Conference of Bucharest, where Bulgaria was "generously" offered an eighth or tenth part of Macedonia - here, too, it preferred to take that part, and did not follow the example of the biblical mother, renouncing its share of the child. I repeat, the following of this, there are some people again who compare the present position of Bulgaria to the position of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War, with a desire in this way to represent it in the role of the same unselfish liberator as Russia was with regard to Bulgaria itself, refusing to see that the main reason for the misfortunes of macedonia were precisely the Bulgaria aspiration towards this long tortured land. Dimitrija Chupovski, Makednoskii Golos, pp. 130-133
July 20, 1916
Rene Picard: The Autonomy of Macedonia The idea of Macedonia autonomy is familiar to all those who are acquainted with Balkan history and politics. If we asked the Christians of Macedonia they would answer that autonomy was the most desirable solution for them. There is and, in fact, there has always been a Macedonian spirit in Macedonia. Geographically, Macedonia has its own unity. Its borders are the following: to the south - Mt. Olympus, the mountains on the north bank of the River Bistrica, Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid; to the west - the Drim from Debar; to the northwest and north - the Shar Mountains, the highlands north of Skopje, the defile of Kumanovo, the mountains that mark the Serbo-Bulgarian frontiers of before 1912; to the east - the Rhodope Mountains. The borderline with Thrace on this side is not clear. The regions of Drama and Kavalla can either be adjoined to macedonia or separated from it; the plain of Drama is populated mostly by Turks; the town of Kavalla, like all the ports, has a strong Greek colony. To the south, the Chalcidice Peninsula is geographically Macedonian, but ethnographically Greek; the line of lakes separates it by a natural border from the rest of Macedonia... Les archives du Ministere des affiars etrangeres (Paris). Guerre 1914-1918, Balkans, Dossier generale, pp.158-165.
Dimitar Blagoev on the nationality of the Macedonians (Bulgarian Parliament session) December 10, 1917...D. Blagoev: Subordinate, but indipendant in their internal affairs. Someone from the left: Don't forget history. D.B.: What history? The one you falsify? (Laughter) We do not recognize such history. We see how things are in reality. It is a fact, gentleman national delegates, that there was a great struggle between the Bulgarian and the Slav peoples in the Balkan peninsula. And that process, descirebd by Mr. Sakszov and supportedd by others, was not aimed at the unification of the Bulgarian people but at domination over the Slav peoples in the Balkan Peninsula who moved en masse to Byzantium and Asia Minor, and on the other hand, went to the south, towards Macedonia
1918
Rudolph Archibald Reiss on the Macedonians I said I would rather call your Bulgarophones Macedonians. You call these people Bulgarophones, owing to their language which is similar to Bulgarian. But, is it Bulgarian, is the same language spoken in Sofia? No. Macedonian is just as similar to Serbian as it is to Bulgarian. I am not a linguist and I would not allow myself a personal judgment, but disinterested Balaknologist have asserted to me that Macedonian is more similar to Serbian the Bulgarian. It is possible that there are linguists who assert the opposite. But it is a fact that the Macedonia language is spoken neither in Sofia nor in Belgrade. It is an individual Slav language, just as we have the Romansch in Switzerland, spoken in Grisons, apart from Italian. To my mind, the Macedonian can be called neither Bulgarian nor Serb, but simply Macedonian. R.A. Reiss, Sur la situation des Macedonianes et des musulmans dans les nouvelles provinces grecques. Paris, 1918, pp.6-7.
January 4, 1919
Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika Dear Sir, Please excuse the liberty I take in writing you, it is because the final settlement in the Balkans is of vital interest to the Catholics in these countries. - I have been 33 years in this Mission, the Uniate Catholic Mission, which at the beginning of the Second Balkan War counted about 10,000 Catholics. The Treaty of Bucharest, which divided Macedonia without any regard to justice, was the cause of these poor people being dispersed on account of their Slav language, which was forbidden in Churches and schools. - The Bishop had his residence in Salonika, he has now been in exile more then 3 years, his priests are dispersed, his flock is indeed without pastors, nor do we have any hope of his return to any place under Greek or Serbian rule. - The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in Churches or schools; the inhabitants of Macedonia are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves Macedonians, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control. - I whatever way Macedonia might be divided, the people would be always discontented, and would fight again as soon as possible. The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the Macedonians, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave Macedonia under people whom the Macedonians hate, and whom they will continually fight... Public Record Office (London) - FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), 1919.
April 10, 1919
Protest from the Provisional representative of the IMRO to the Paris Peace Conference To His Excellency, Monsieur Clemanceau, President of the Council: It is duty of my honor, as a delegate of the Macedonian Committees to the High Peace Conference, to protest against the maneuvers of certain suspicious persons who claim to speak in the name of Macedonia and represent some so-called "Executive Committee of the Macedonian Societies". Let me be allowed to indicate that the Macedonian emigrants to Bulgaria have over the past 30 years created quite a small class of Macedonians Bulgarized to such a point that they sacrifice completely the interests of their native land to those of Bulgaria. People who have two homelands are generally suspicious; what to say, on the other hand, about those who do not hesitate to propose as delegates to the Conference two persons such as Aleksandrov and Protogerov, adherents to the Kaiser and Ferdinand, and organizers of the massacres in Nish? Indeed, there is noone else who could more compromise the cause of "Autonomous Macedonia" before the Aeropagus of the victors! Hence I have the honor to point out that the only Macedonian Societies free from any Bulgarian political influence, or any other, and representing loyally the whole of Macedonia, without distinction of language or religion, are the Macedonian Committees, which starting from the 1893 constituted the IMRO... It is in their name, and by no means in the name of Bulgaria or the Bulgarians, that I have already had the honor to request and now I am requesting again from Your Excellency to grant me an audience so that I may present to You the desires of the Macedonian people... Archimandrite Paul Christoff, General Vicar of Thrace, delegate of the Macedonian Committees. A. Lainovich, Jugoslavika u biblioteci za savremenu - medzhunarodnu dokumentaciju u Parizu - Godishen zbornik na FF, 24-25 (1972-73) pp. 88-89
July 1919
Bulgarian Nikola Pushkarov on "The Economic Wealth of Macedonia and its Neighbors" All the neighbors of Macedonia wish her well. Each of them tries through all means to convince the Macedonians of its significance as a savior. When the population of Macedonia doubts the sincerity of the unwanted liberators, they even prove to it the opposite by the sword. And each of the neighbors denies the other the right to be a liberator. The neighbors waged wars in this dispute, they had been fighting among themselves for years to the right of Macedonia's liberators. They exhausted the three neighboring peoples and almost exterminated the Macedonian people. The wars ended, because the peoples realized that the liberation of Macedonia had turned into enormous increase of the capital of the false patriots at the expanse of the peoples ' blood and sweat. Today the exhausted peoples, exasperated by the terrible patriotic deeds of the false patriots, demand payment for the lies, for the terrible lies which threw them into terrible rows. But the false patriots of the neighbors do not despair; they have created special agencies of mercenaries responsible for proving by excusable and inexcusable means how the Macedonians most closely belong to the "homeland" of their patrons. They have called the population of this unfortunate land either "Bulgarophone Greeks", or "Macedonians Slavo-Serbs,: or "brothers beyond Mount Rila."... ...It is the wealth of Macedonia which makes the false patriots of her neighbors mad with "patriotism". Makes them burn with desire to cut off as large as possible a portion of Macedonia for themselves to "liberate" it, i.e. to deprive the Macedonians of the chance of governing themselves. But you must keep your land, Macedonians, from the false good wishes of those individuals. They will bring you a new slavery, harsher then the former. Your land is entirely capable of an independent existence. ...Unite around the banner of the autonomy of your homeland, because it is the only banner which you will not be persecuted for not being a Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, but simply Macedonian. Bjoletin br. 8 (19.VII.1919) pp.7-8
November 18, 1919
Telegram from the General Council of the Macedonian Societies in Switzerland to the Peace Conference in Paris ..Assembled at its plenary session and working in the name of the whole of the Macedonian people, without serving any foreign policy, energetically protest against the clause allowing the Macedonians the right to opt for Bulgarian nationality. We do not want to be made instruments of Bulgarian irredentism in Macedonia. Macedonia has never been a part of the present Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgarian diplomats, who bear part of the responsibilities for the misfortunes of the Macedonian population, are by no means qualified to intercede in favor of our cause and have no right to do it... Secretary: Bl. Bojadziev; Vice-Persident: G. Nikolov Lj. Lape, Aktivnosta na Glavniot odbor, p. 190

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## Garrick

> ok, looking forward to hear...
> but tomorrow...


How yes no,
Here's the research of international and Pakistani scientists have found a *Haplogroup E1b1b1* (formerly* E3b1*) in tribe of Pathans in Pakistan.

Although this is not ultimate proof that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E, if one of the elite soldier or his entourage was the E carrier indicates an increased *likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier*.

Although scientists speak of the *Greeks*, can be read on forums that the Albanians used this research to demonstrate the Illyrian/Albanian descent of Alexander the Great, as the E haplogroup in Europe is the most common percentage of *Albanians Gega*.

*Sadaf Firasat1 et al*

*Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan*
 

_Eur J Hum Genet_*., 2007 January*
 

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/pdf/ukmss-2934.pdf

*Clade E lineages were more frequent in the Greeks (21%) as compared to Pakistan (4%).* *The majority of haplogroup E chromosomes belonged to clade E3b and all Greek and* *Pakistani samples were resolved into the branches E3b1 (M78) and E3b3 (M123). Among* *the three Pakistani populations claiming Greek descent, this clade was observed only in* 
*the Pathans. The Pathan samples belonged to clade E3b1 which constituted 17% of the* *Greek samples.*

*A median-joining network of clade E Y chromosomes was constructed in order to* *examine the genetic relationship between these Greek and Pathan samples. A duplication* *of 10 and 13 repeat units was observed in the clade-E-derived Y chromosomes for the* *trinucleotide repeat DYS425 and this locus was, therefore, excluded from the network.* *The most striking feature of this network was the sharing of haplotypes between the* *Pathan and Greek samples (Figure 2). One Pathan individual shared the same Y-STR* *haplotype with three Greek individuals, and the other Pathan sample was separated from* *this cluster by a single mutation at the DYS436 locus. This demonstrates a very close* *relationship between the Pathan and Greek E lineages, but how surprising is this?*

*Worldwide data for the 16-element haplotype are not available, but a subset of nine of* *the STRs are included in by the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD) 20 and* *were used to search this. The haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10;* *392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population* *sample of 7,897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 3). The contour* *map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering* *in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong* *indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.*

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## DejaVu

COUNCIL FOR RESEARCH INTO SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE OF THE MACEDONIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES AND ARTS 

THE MACEDONIAN QUESTION IN FOREIGN RELATIONS


The Macedonian question appeared in foreign relations in the 1870's during the great Eastern Crisis when armed uprisings for liberation of the subdued peoples started in the Balkans. The uprisings in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1875, in Bulgaria in April 1876 and in Macedonia in 1876 raised the question of the further existence of the Ottoman Turkish Empire in Europe. Following its current policy for the Balkans, Russia opposed the policies of the great Western European powers to retain the integrity of the Ottoman state, guaranteed by the Treaty of Paris concluded on April 15th 1856, and supported the fight of the conquered nations for liberation and independence. The Russian political programme devised several years before by counsellor Gorchakov was announced at the end of 186 and included a solution to the Macedonian question. The Russian plans for the Balkans anticipated a direct involvement of Russia in the liberation of the Orthodox Christian peoples and creation of national states: independence and territorial expansion for Serbia and Montenegro (in their ethnic borders), establishment of two Bulgarian principalities (north and south of the Stara mountain as counter-balance to the two Serbian principalities), and a separate, independent Macedonian principality. The Macedonian question divided the interests of Austria-Hungary and Russia. The Austro-Hungarian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Count Abrashi, requested establishment of an autonomous Macedonian state in customs union with Austria-Hungary-91 Gorchakov in principle agreed to it, but it soon turned out that Russia could not accept it. In 1876-77 an Ambassadors' Conference of the great European states was held in Constantinople. It was expected to reach a diplomatic solution to the problems of the conquered nations within the Ottoman state and thus prevent further escalation of the crisis. The USA, which did not have any special interests in Macedonia, initiated an appropriate inquiry and solution to the Macedonian question. The American diplomacy in association with the American professors from the Robert College in Constantinople who were well-acquainted with the real situation, submitted to the Conference a proposition for the autonomy of Macedonia. However, the Conference failed due to the opposing interests of the great powers. Russia changed its policy on Macedonia and abandoned the plans for creation of a Macedonian state and started working in favour of a greater Bulgarian state instead. This happened after the secret negotiations on the Balkans among Austria-Hungary, Russia and Germany in April 1878 when Austro-Hungarian diplomacy renewed the question of the creation of an autonomous Macedonian state, i.e. Macedonian principality (with General Radich as its governor). On that occasion the Russian representative, General Ignatiev, did not oppose that solution, but in May 1878 Russian diplomacy refused to clarify its view on the question or support the Macedonian demands for an independent state submitted in Constantinople to General Ignatiev by Dimitar Robev, a Macedonian representative in the Ottoman Parliament. On July 13th, the International Treaty of Berlin (Art.23), gave Macedonia a special autonomous status. The government of the Ottoman state was assigned to regulate the status of Macedonia and the other provinces with a separate Statute. However, as there was no international control to observe the implementation of these resolutions or authorize sanctions for their non-implementation, the government in Constantinople did not fulfil its duties. The Macedonian uprising from 1878-79 and the actions of "Edinstvo" ("Unity"), the Transitional Government of Macedonia (formed secretly at the meeting of the National Assembly held from May 21st to June 2nd 1880) renewed interest in the Macedonian question in the diplomatic circles of the Great European Powers. The Transitional Government sent an Appeal to the great powers accompanied by a Protocol of the National Assembly for liberation of Macedonia and its constitution as an independent state. Furthermore, on March 23rd 1881, it issued a Manifesto which was distributed among the diplomatic representatives in the Ottoman Turkish state. Macedonia became an object of special interest in the relations between Russia, Austria-Hungary and Germany. The agreement on a secret alliance of the emperors of these three states signed in 1881 included a separate stipulation for the protection of Macedonia from a possible attack by Bulgaria. The beginning of the Ilinden uprising for national liberation of Macedonia in 1903, which the European diplomats called "The Macedonian revolution", marked the Macedonian question as an acute one for European diplomacy. The uprising and the creation of the so-called Krushevo Republic proved that the Macedonian people were ready to fight for their national freedom and the formation of their national state. At that time, the European powers were against the creation of a new state in the Balkans. European diplomacy had to intervene in order to calm the situation by proposing several projects for reforms among which were the Austro-Hungarian - Russian project known as the Murzsteg Reforms Programme and the British initiative that gave Macedonia a special status in its natural and ethnic borders. US diplomacy also became involved. The secretary of state and the USA president T.Roosevelt himself wrote to the British government acclaiming the British initiative for the autonomy of Macedonia. As regards the reforms in Macedonia, American diplomats in 1907 suggested strict control of their implementation by the mandatory powers. In the beginning of March 1908 the government of Great Britain launched an initiative for the introduction of more radical reforms in Macedonia. This initiative was readily accepted by Russia. The two state sovereigns (British and Russian) met in June 1908 in Reval (Tallinn) and adopted a new proposal for reforms as a preliminary phase towards full autonomy for Macedonia."' Nevertheless, this initiative did not take place due to the revolution of the Young Turks which declared and introduced a constitutional order and democratization of the Ottoman Turkish state. However, the rule of the Young Turks with its Greater Ottoman politics stopped the process of further democratization and of a peaceful democratic solution to the Macedonian question within the Turkish state for which there existed the necessary conditions. It only led towards further deterioration of the situation which was used by the neighbouring Balkan states to interfere in the internal affairs of the Turkish state and to manifest openly their expansionist intentions. Due to the worsening relations on the Balkans, in 1911 US diplomats undertook steps to influence the governments of the Balkan states to ease the tension and avoid the war they were preparing for, which could have led towards further involvement of the great powers in the solution of the eastern crisis. However, European diplomats showed no interest in preventing the military conflict on the Balkans. Moreover, they took part in its preparation governed by their original interests. At the time of the Balkan Wars when Macedonia was occupied and partitioned by the neighbouring Balkan states which was confirmed by the Treaty of Bucharest of August 10th 1913, European diplomacy had its own interest in accepting the partitioning as such. This could well have been predicted as the European powers, divided into two opposite blocks, started hasty preparations for the forthcoming Great War. Thus, the Macedonian question entered a new and extremely dangerous phase, not only for the future of the Macedonian nation, but for the peace on the Balkans and in Europe too. These fears soon came true with the beginning of the First World War. At the end of the war the Macedonian question became a crucial problem in the negotiations and the plans for the post-war organization of Balkan relations. The high military and political circles of the Entente powers and the US diplomats considered the creation of an independent Macedonian state, under the protectorate of one of the great non-involved powers (having primarily in mind the USA) as an unbiased, just and permanent solution to the problem. The final aim of this idea was the establishment of radically new relations on the Balkans which would ensure permanent stability in that neuralgic region. Such a solution was also presented at the secret negotiations for separate peace between the powers of the Entente on the one side and Bulgaria on the other under the observance of the USA. The interest in the Macedonian question was renewed yet again in the official diplomacy of the USA, with President W. Wilson's peace programme. In the official American interpretation of the "14 items'.', the USA declared that they would support an objective and unbiased investigation of the problem. An American expert group studied the Treaty of Bucharest of 1913 and concluded that it could not serve as a basis for a solution to the Balkan problems because that agreement was "an act of the corrupted Balkan bourgeoisies". At the beginning of the Paris Peace Conference, twenty- five renowned intellectuals from different European countries, Great Britain and the USA signed a Memorandum on the Macedonian question and sent it to the President of the USA. They demanded the formation of an autonomous Macedonian state in its natural and ethnic borders, which in the south would stretch from the Lake of Kostur to the Vardar estuary, thus leaving the towns of Ber and Negrita and the Halkidiki Peninsula to Greece. Furthermore, it was suggested that in the beginning the autonomous Macedonian state be under the protectorate of one of the great powers (the USA presumably). An unsigned Memorandum with identical contents was sent to Great Britain, too. The issue of the formation of a Macedonian state was the subject of an intense exchange of opinions and viewpoints among the members of the USA Peace Delegation, the American diplomatic representatives in the European states and the members of the American teams of experts. This was especially evident after the request of the Macedonians to be allowed a presence at the Paris Conference in order to present their demands. The member of the team of experts for Balkan questions C. Day informed A. Dulles in a letter about his numerous consultations with impartial experts on the Macedonian question who admitted the existence of problems arising from the issue, but were unanimously for the formation of an autonomous Macedonian state. The envoy of the American President, his personal friend and an expert on European relations, Professor George Herron urged President W. Wilson and the American Peace Delegation to put the Macedonian question on the agenda of the Peace Conference, supporting the integrity and independence of Macedonia. In a letter of May 26th to Colonel Haus, the leader of the American delegation and the most influential political figure after the President, Professor Herron wrote that the Macedonians were a separate nation, unified in their demands and wishes to form an independent state under the protectorate of the USA. Col. Haus himself supported "the cause of Macedonian freedom". Despite the favourable attitude of most of the USA representatives, the Macedonian question remained outside the agenda of the Peace Conference due to the categorical opposition of France and Great Britain who supported the aspirations of the Balkan Allies, Greece and Serbia (i.e. the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenians) to keep the occupied parts of Macedonia. At the Paris Peace Conference, when the peace terms were negotiated with the Balkan states, the Macedonian question was treated as a minority problem and discussed at the Committee for New States and the Protection of the Minorities. At its meeting on July 15th, 1919 the Italian delegation submitted a proposal for the autonomous status of Macedonia "within borders fixed by the Great Powers and their allies" with the highest possible degree of self-government, but within the borders of the the new Kingdom of SCS. The meeting of July 18th discussed the stipulations which were to be introduced at the peace negotiations with the Balkan states concerning the protection of minorities. These stipulations also included the Macedonian minorities in the Balkan states, referred to as "Macedonians". At the meeting of July 30th the Committee discussed the Italian proposal for the autonomy of Macedonia and the British proposal for the establishment of League of Nations control over Macedonia. As regards this, it was suggested that the League of Nations be authorized to send its representatives to Macedonia. The following meetings discussed the same proposals in a somewhat modified form. Due to the opposing views on the question, it remained open till the beginning of November 1919. The text of the Peace Agreement on minorities and the obligations of the government of the Kingdom of SCS for the protection of the rights of minorities were then finally formulated. On November, llth the Supreme Council accepted the proposed text of the document and obliged the government of the Kingdom of SCS to sign the agreement. The Committee for New States also prepared stipulations for protection of minorities in Greece where the Macedonian people were given minority status.' The Committee informed the Greek delegation about the draft-agreement for the protection of minorities and the stipulations included in it. The president of the Greek government and a leader of the peace delegation responded to this document issued by the Committee with a false statement that Greece had provided protection for the Albanian, Moslem and Slav minorities (the latter referred to as "the Slav communities in Macedonia") and claimed that Greece was ready to accept the agreement. According to this, the president of Greece recognized the existence of a Macedonian minority. The stipulations for the protection of minorities put Greece under an obligation to introduce minority languages in the state schools, but Venizelos resisted this and demanded reformulation of the decrees for the protection of minorities. At the meeting on September 18th the Supreme Council rejected all the Greek comments and on November 3rd ratified its agreement with Greece. Having imposed his plans for a reciprocal exchange of population between Greece and Bulgaria, the aim of which was only to conduct an ethnic cleansing of the occupied Aegean part of Macedonia with international approval, Venizelos presented himself as especially co-operative as regards the Agreement. Accepting his demands, the Committee for New States formed a separate Sub-Committee which prepared "special stipulations" for "voluntary emigration" of the citizens of these states during a period of four years after the effectuation of the Agreement. The Committee for New States only redefined this decree as an individual right for voluntary emigration, thus changing nothing essential in it. The suggestion of expanding these stipulations to refer to the Kingdom of SCS and Turkey was not accepted. The Committee prepared a separate convention for an exchange of citizens between Greece and Bulgaria on a voluntary basis. The Supreme Council approved of its text and obliged the Bulgarian delegation to sign it within 48 hours. The Bulgarian delegation signed the convention within the given period of notice. The stipulations for the protection of minorities which also referred to parts of the Macedonian people were not respected by the Balkan states. The Macedonian people was subjected to very severe de-nationalization and assimilation. Greece applied such means of violent pressure that it forced a great part of the Macedonian population to accept "voluntary" emigration.

----------


## Garrick

> hahaha 
> the mollosos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alexanders Dogs, from the kingdom of his mother,
> Garrick Alexander was surely not E
> probably he was J2 as Dorians,
> ...


Iapetoc
I myself was convinced that Alexander the Great was J carrier.

But after this research of Pakistani and international scientists, brings me closer to the idea that he was a E carrier.

I would like to try to research and comment *likelihood that Alexander the Great was the E haplogroup*.

This research is likely canceled the idea that Alexander the Great was I2a2, which means that *the Slav Macedonians can not usurp Alexander the Great*. 

And on the subject of the Albanians we will through long research and determined many important facts that will shed more light on the Albanian ancestry and origin, so I therefore would not bother on this topic, but I accepted the study of Pakistani and international scientists that illuminates situation and increases *the likelihood that* *Alexander the Great was E carrier and Greek*.

----------


## DejaVu

> Iapetoc
> 
> This research is likely canceled the idea that Alexander the Great was I2a2, which means that *the Slav Macedonians can not usurp Alexander the Great*. 
> 
> And on the subject of the Albanians we will through long research and determined many important facts that will shed more light on the Albanian ancestry and origin, so I therefore would not bother on this topic, but I accepted the study of Pakistani and international scientists that illuminates situation and increases *the likelihood that* *Alexander the Great was E carrier and Greek*.


*Garrick, again you are using a provocative statement without any evidence, because Macedonians are not Serbs.* 

*Why should Macedonians be I2a2 only? You are a big nationalist and you clearly show it.*

*To find Haplogroup E in Alexander III Macedon (The Great) is your own vision and nobody cares what haplogroup he had, might be whatever.* 



*Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)*

*Macedonia (FYROM)*
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0% 
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1% 

*Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe



*Kalash*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash
In a 2005 study of ASPM gene variants, Mekel-Bobrov et al. found that the Kalash people of Pakistan have among the highest rate of the newly-evolved ASPM haplogroup D, at 60% occurrence of the approximately 6,000-year-old allele.
The Kalash also have been shown to exhibit the exceedingly rare 19 allele value at autosomal marker D9S1120 at a frequency higher than the majority of other world populations which do have it.

Firasat et al. (2006) conclude that the *Kalash lack typical* *Greek** haplogroups* (e.g. haplogroup 21), 

On the other hand, *a study by Qamar et al. (2002) found that even though "no support for a Greek origin of their Y chromosomes was found" in the Kalash*, Greek y-chromosome admixture could be as high as 20% to 40%. Considering the apparent absence of haplogroup 21 in the local population, one of the possibilities suggested was because of genetic drift. On the basis of Y chromosome allele frequency, some researchers describe the exact Greek contribution to Kalash as unclear.

Another study with Qasim Ayub, and S. Qasim Mehdi, and led by Quintana-Murci claims that "the western Eurasian presence in the Kalash population reaches a frequency of 100%, the most prevalent [mtDNA] haplogroup being U4, (pre-HV)1, U2e, and J2," and that they show "no detectable East or South Asian lineages. The outlying genetic position is seen in all analyses. Moreover, although this population is composed of western Eurasian lineages, the most prevalent ... are rare or absent in the surrounding populations and usually characterize populations from Eastern Europe, the middle East and the Caucasus... All these observations bear witness to the strong effects of genetic drift of the Kalash population... However, a western Eurasian origin for this population is likely, in view of their maternal lineages, which can ultimately be traced back to the Middle East".

The estimates by Qamar et al. of Greek admixture has been dismissed by Toomas Kivisild et al. (2003): “some admixture models and programs that exist are not always adequate and realistic estimators of gene flow between populations ... this is particularly the case when markers are used that do not have enough restrictive power to determine the source populations ... or when there are more than two parental populations. In that case, a simplistic model using two parental populations would show a bias towards overestimating admixture”.

The study came to the conclusion that the Pakistani Kalash population estimate by (Qamar et al. 2002) “is unrealistic and is likely also driven by the low marker resolution that pooled southern and western Asian–specific Y-chromosome haplogroup H together with European-specific haplogroup I, into an uninformative polyphyletic cluster 2”.

A study by Rosenberg et al. (2006) employing genetic testing among the Kalash population concluded that they are, in fact, a distinct (and perhaps aboriginal) population with only minor contributions from outside peoples. In one cluster analysis with (K = 7), the Kalash formed one cluster, the others being Africans, Europeans/Middle Easterners/South Asians, East Asians, Melanesians, and Native Americans. 

A genetic study published led by Firasat (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of :Haplogroup L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%). Haplogroup L originates from prehistoric South Asia.

In the recent study: "Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-Wide Patterns of Variation (2008)", geneticists using more than 650,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) samples from the Human Genome Diversity Panel, found deep rooted lineages that could be distinguished in the *Kalash*. The results showed them not only to be distinct, but perfectly clustered within the Central/South Asian populations at (K = 7). The study also showed the Kalash to be a separated group, with having no membership within European populations.

----------


## how yes no 2

> How yes no,
> Here's the research of international and Pakistani scientists have found a *Haplogroup E1b1b1* (formerly* E3b1*) in tribe of Pathans in Pakistan.
> 
> Although this is not ultimate proof that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E, if one of the elite soldier or his entourage was the E carrier indicates an increased *likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier*.
> 
> Although scientists speak of the *Greeks*, can be read on forums that the Albanians used this research to demonstrate the Illyrian/Albanian descent of Alexander the Great, as the E haplogroup in Europe is the most common percentage of *Albanians Gega*.
> 
> *Sadaf Firasat1 et al*
> 
> ...


this is politically motivated paper.... that should prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks...those 3 nations do not claim origin from Greeks (as claimed in paper) but from armies of Alexander the Great which is much wider notion...

ancient Macedonians were almost certainly dominantly R1a people (as Greek Macedonia has it more than Slavic Macedonia, as in Slavic Macedonia it is equally spread in ethnic Macedonians and Albanians, and as R1a on Balkan is ancient old)

Greek Macedonia is R1a dominant area, and so are all 3 people who claim descend from ancient Macedonians......but they compare only E haplogroup and find 2.1% of E1b1b in Pathan, which could have arrived there in multitude other ways.... though it probably did arrive with armies of ancient Macedonians...

question is why do they check only E1b1b? because R1a has connotation of being Slavic marker... and E and J as being Greek markers..... another indicator worth checking is haplogroup G, and again it is present in all 3 groups....

proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and look for details that distinguish those people from surroundings and are same as in Balkans......

----------


## Garrick

> *Garrick, again you are using a provocative statement without any evidence, because Macedonians are not Serbs.* 
> 
> *Why should Macedonians be I2a2 only? You are a big nationalist.*
> 
> *To find Haplogroup E in Alexander III Macedon (The Great) is your own vision and nobody cares what haplogroup he had, might be whatever. Let him rest in peace.*


DejaVu
I have never ever mention Serbs or I think that Alexander the Great have nothing to do with the Serbs, and to understand what I meant.

If *Alexander the Great was E haplogroup*:

*Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:*

*Greeks and* 

*Albanians.*


*No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.*


*You calling me a nationalist because I say that Alexander the Great was neither Slav Macedonian nor Serb???*


Do you know that in Serbia does have a nationalists (but in Macedonia FYROM much much more), who think that Alexander the Great was a Serb or I2a2?

*I just fight against the stupid nationalistic ideas!!!*

I don't accept it.

*I don't accept statues of Alexander the Great neither in Skopje nor in Belgrade.*

----------


## DejaVu

> proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and that distinguish those people from surroundings......


*Agree.*

Hope they find same haplogroup that is common in all balkan countries, so all nationalist can get a big surprise. Then maybe all will agree that all have mixed population from many historical people and nations.

----------


## how yes no 2

> If *Alexander the Great was E haplogroup*:
> 
> *Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:*
> 
> *Greeks and* 
> 
> *Albanians.*
> 
> 
> *No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.*


stop with that propaganda like argument...
does 2.2% of I1 in some part of Russia proves that Hitler and Napoleon were I1?

Alexander Macedonian origins from family that has Greek origin (at least one of his ancestors claimed that in order to be allowed to participate in Olympic games)... 

but origin of elite and origin of nations they rule over often differ...

equal spread of R1a among Macedonia Slavic and Albanian population and elevated spread in Greece Macedonia coupled with R1a in Balkan being ancient old is clear indication that ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a people... expected additional haplogroups are G2a, J2b and only than E-V13...

of course, Alexander did in his army have also Thracians, Illyrians.... all people who are likely to have had some or much E-V13...

----------


## DejaVu

*"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"*
*"Greeks and* *Albanians."*


*WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????*

*You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!*

----------


## Garrick

> this is politically motivated paper.... that should prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks...those 3 nations do not claim origin from Greeks (as claimed in paper) but from armies of Alexander the Great which is much wider notion...
> 
> ancient Macedonians were almost certainly dominantly R1a people (as Greek Macedonia has it more than Slavic Macedonia, as in Slavic Macedonia it is equally spread in ethnic Macedonians and Albanians, and as R1a on Balkan is ancient old)
> 
> Greek Macedonia is R1a dominant area, and so are all 3 people who claim descend from ancient Macedonians......but they compare only E haplogroup and find 2.1% of E1b1b in Pathan, which could have arrived there in multitude other ways.... though it probably did arrive with armies of ancient Macedonians...
> 
> question is why do they check only E1b1b? because R1a has connotation of being Slavic marker... and E and J as being Greek markers...and authors are Greeks... another indicator worth checking is haplogroup G, and again it is present in all 3 groups....
> 
> proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and look for details that distinguish those people from surroundings and are same as in Balkans......


how yes no
I'm not saying that your thinking is incorrect, perhaps it is properly.

But for that you are talking requires some scientific evidence, some proof.

No one says it is proven that Alexander the Great was the holder of E haplogroup.

However this research exists and this is closest to now the final result, if we follow the scientific approach that we are closed to the truth which differs from the current assumptions this means that we need to have some findings, some other results based on which we can discuss.

The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.

----------


## DejaVu

> The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.


*Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.*

*Haplogroup E*
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe*

*Albanians*
25.5% (2008)

*Bosnians*
10,1% (2005)

*Bulgarians*
20.7% (2004)

*Croats (mainland)*
5,6% (2005)

*Greeks*
31.6% (2008), 20,8% (2007), 23,8% (2004)

*Macedonians (FYROM)*
18% (2010), 24,1% (2005)

*Romanians*
7,4% (2004)

*Serbs*
17,3% (2010), 21,2% (2005)

*Slovenians*
2,7% (2008), 7,1% (2000) 


*What makes Haplogroup E, Greek or Albanian? Maybe, because you are Albanian from Serbia.*

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.*
> 
> *Haplogroup E*
> *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe*
> 
> *Albania*
> 25.5% (2008)
> 
> *Bulgaria*
> ...


Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
while Montenegro has 5% Albanians

though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...
however this can be misleading as variance of haplogroup E in Kosovo is very little... much less than in Dalmatia...
big frequency coupled with small variation is indicator of extreme reproduction rate with most people in such group having common ancestor very close in time ....

----------


## Garrick

> *"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"*
> *"Greeks and* *Albanians."*
> 
> 
> *WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????*
> 
> *You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!*


DejaVu
Do not know how you can not understand *something that is obvious*.

Of course, the whole story becomes dangerous to the idea that the Slav Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians, it is clear, however, *why elite FYROM Macedonia follows the stupid ideas that can lead to disaster*.

And you know the Albanians; in the forums, newspapers, books, history, science has a lot of *Albanians, who say that Alexander the Great was Albanian*.

You know that the *Albanians did not accept the Macedonian encyclopedia*, partly because the *chapter on ancient Macedonia*, which the Albanians think that this is their history and not the Macedonian Slav.

And when they threatened protests over Macedonia, *FYROM, encyclopedia is withdrawn*.

Do not understand me wrong, I do not say that the Albanians are right, but they refer to various sources, and indeed *some authors in the West to give them the right*.

If by any chance to prove *that Alexander the Great was the E haplogroup* then you can only imagine how the *Albanians to have wings*.

Next best thing, they would argue that *this is evidence that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians*. 

They will no longer be concerned only part of the western and northern Macedonia, where they have a majority, but *they will see themselves as the successors to the whole of Macedonia*.

I'm trying to say *how stupid FYROM Macedonian propaganda can itself cause the mat, then a hopeless position*.

----------


## Garrick

> Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
> while Montenegro has 5% Albanians
> 
> though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...


how yes no
*The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians*.

*Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),*

*Kosovo 45.6% (Pericic et al).*

And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.


It is true that there are studies showing that in the Peloponnese E-V13 is 47% however Maciamo caught my attention, and he's right, it's a small sample.

----------


## DejaVu

You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?

There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.

----------


## how yes no 2

> how yes no
> *The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians*.
> 
> *Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),
> 
> Kosovo 45,6% (Pericic et al).
> *
> And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.
> 
> ...


yes, but it is not only frequency what matters most when it comes to ancient history, but also the variation....

Kosovo Albanians have almost no variation in their haplogroup E....which indicates rather recent common origin.... 

in 4 generations you can have
A has 10 kids, all his kids have 10 kids, all kids of his kids have 10 kids, and all their kids 10 kids... =>10000 people

B has 3 kids, his kids have 2 kids, his kids have 1 kid, their kids 2 kids
=> 12 people

now those two groups - one made of those 12 people and other of those 10000 people are probable to have same variation in YDNA haplogroup.... but 4 generations ago there were only person A and person B....

when we talk about ancient Macedonians of Alexander the Great we talk about 2330 years ago...
if you take that people had kids around their 20th year, that means around 116 generations since than

Kosovo Albanians have minimalistic variation of haplogroup E, hotspot of variation of haplogroup E is in Dalmatia.....


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

big variation of haplogroup E in Dalmatia can be about Illyrians, but it may as well be about some pre-Illyrian people... it's hard to say anything as haplogroup E is unexpectedly low in frequency on Adriatic islands...I can understand that mainland Dalmatia had depopulation and repopulation due to waves of invaders.... but Illyrians who lived on islands, why would they run away and where...islands were never really heavily invaded.......

it would be good if some ancient DNA could be analyzed... until than it is hard to claim anything on Illyrians...as they could have been E-V13 dominant, or J2b2 dominant, or R1b dominant or I2a2 dominant...

in any case big variation of E in Dalmatia indicates that haplogroup E might have entered Balkan via sea by landing in Dalmatia..... probably from hotspot of E variance in Asia minor...

----------


## iapetoc

Before and with same road to Geneticks it is the Lingustic.

The Ancient Makedonian Dialect is Very well written by Royal Danish Academy,
also by 
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/CSAD/Hesychius/Hansen.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Thurston_Peck

*AND THE MOST ANCIENT LEXICON OF HESYCHIUS OF ALEXANDDRIA

which is Before every old Makedonian church and Before slavic invasions*

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria*
*
THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE* 
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language*


Now DejaVu *none of these words are Slavic-Makedonians,*

*ACCEPT IT

THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE is a Greek dialect


**Statistics without "Macedonians"*
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them. 

*1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:*
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

*2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:*
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

*Even IF I NAME THE BULGARIANS AND HALF OF THE TURKS AS SLAVIC-MAKEDONIANS,
THE EXISTANCE OF GREEK-MAKEDONIANS IS OBVIUS,*
THESE GREEKS DID NOT WAKE UP SUDENLY IN 1904 AND MOVED TO MAKEDONIA
*THEY EXISTED THERE 3000 YEARS,*
SO THE RIGHT OF GREEK PEOPLE TO BE THEIR THEIR NATION IS STRONGER THAN YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT A TREATY
A TREATY IS STRONG OF THE PEOPLE ACCEPT IT,
*WE DO NOT WANT OR ACCEPT THE TREATY OF BUCUREST 1913 AND WANT OUR OWN STATE,
IN THE LANDS THAT OUR FATHERS (ARGEIANS) LIVED AND ONLY THAT
BECAUSE FYROM IS ANOTHER ETHNICITIE,

**Understand that
the MAKEDONIA YOU CLAIM IS MADE BY 3 NATIONS 
GREEK-MAKEDONIAN
SLAVIC-MAKEDONIAN
ALBANIAN

WE HAVE AT 90 % THE LANDS OF OUR FATHERS THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIANS AND BELLOW 40% OF THE LAND YOU CLAIM
AS YUGOSLAVIA TODAY IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS USSR IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS INDIA IS CUT TO PAKISTAN-NEPAL_INDIA-BAGLADESH

YOUR MAKEDONIA EXISTED ON THE MAPS ONLY,
IN TREATIES AND PAPERS NOT IN THE HEART OF PEOPLE,
EVEN IF WE WERE OR ARE LESS THAN YOU, WE DONT WANT TO BE A MINORITY
SO KEEP YOUR MAJORITY AND YOUR STATE,
AND CLAIMING AND BULLSHIT,

THE I2a 
THE E-V13
THE J2 
IS DIFFERENT AMONG SLAVIC AND GREEK MAKEDONIANS
SO EVEN GENETICALLY WE ARE DIFFERENT,
OR WE COME FROM DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES

*Have in mind that by claiming lands and ethnicitie you open your self to be claimed also

Look at Ossetia and Abkhazia
once they belong to Georgia,
today are 'independent' (?) and choose according their will
the south to Georgia the north 'independent' (Russian federate state)
if I am georgian I go south
If i am Ossetian I go north

the same Here,
If I am Greek-Makedonian I 'll go Greek Makedonia
If I am Slavic-Makedonian I 'll go to Fyrom

*the problem is that Fyrom denies The Slavic and claims land And ethnicitie*
*Understand that,*


Besides all the story here are mainly based in The KURGAN Hypothesis (hypothesis not thesis)
and not the opposite Greco-Aryan-Armenian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

which leads us to *Grassman's Law*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmann%27s_Law

cause if we take that thesis upon that law the whole Kurgan hypothesis is never happened 
and the PIE language started at almost Armenia-Levant, and went to steppes, and returned from there,
That Hypothesis is also existing,
the propability that IE language went to steppes, and then returned back
is mentioned in all archaic civilizations,
Hebrew, Assyr, Greeks, Babylonians,
as also a new approach of Black sea and Propontis cataclysm

----------


## DejaVu

Language is your connection? Again you are lost in your fantasy world but continue, that is your problem.

----------


## Garrick

> You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
> All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?
> 
> There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.


DejaVu
Type in the Google:

*Alexander the Great Albanian*

*188 000 results!*

Here's a small selection from the first page:

http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html

Alexander the Great
There are few places where *Alexander the Great's* influence has not been felt. His vast empire spread from the Atlantic shores of Spain to the plains of India. His example has been admired and followed for generations to come, and his legacy has been deeply felt by the entire world. It is said that *Julius Ceaser* himself began to weep as he stood under the shadow of a statue of Alexander the Great, for Alexander had conquered half the world by 19, and Ceaser not even made a name for himself by that age. 

And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of *Philip II* and *Olympia*. Olympia, was the princess of *Epirus*, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes. This relation of Alexander having Albanian blood is considered somewhat feasible and acceptable by the history books, but we want to stretch out the enigma of Alexander. 

Initially there is the question of where and to what people Alexander belonged to. It is known that Alexander the Great, was really Alexander of Macedon, and the current flag of Macedonia is the ancient sun flag of Alexander's army. This seems reasonable, but what really were the "Macedon" people. As stated in the Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, "the Slavs, occupied much of the area [Balkans] by the 6th century AD", so it cannot be possible for the now largely Slavic Macedonia to be a descendant from Alexander the Great. Slavic tribes did not come into the region of *Northern Greece until well after Alexander's death, which leaves only two people left, the Albanians and the Greeks. It is important tot note that the history books have not labeled Alexander Greek, and therefore he can only be Albanian. Albanian tribes are the earliest known to occupy northern Greece, and that allows Alexander only one nationality. Alexander did not have Albanian blood, he was an Albanian. To Albanians this fact seems very clear, for we have named our currency lek, after Leka I Madh*.



*http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7204138AAgmRrj*

How is alexander the great albanian?




www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CIwd

Alexander the Great is ALBANIAN




www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebxHtuf-YI

George FINLAY Alexander the Great spoken Albanian

Etc...


Not to mention the sites in the Albanian language and other languages.

And now. Can you even imagine what would happen to disclose that Alexander the Great was the holder of E?

----------


## DejaVu

*What was like the ancient Macedonian language?*

There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language. 

One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper. 

Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages). 
For instance, the word "*tshelniku*" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20) 
*The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.* 

The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology. 
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead. 
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form? 

Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "*phoinikos*", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this *word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier".* There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare. 

An abundance of *water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language.* The corresponding *ancient Macedonian word* for this is the word "*vedy*". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical. 

The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "*pez*"26). 

"*Pella*"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding *word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila"*, which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella". 

The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "*skoidos*" bears the meaning of judges. *In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).*


There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages". 


A very good example is the word "*arotos*" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"? 


It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "*sarissa*". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously. 

*By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.* 

It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary. 
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin. 

A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc. 

We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").

----------


## Garrick

DejaVu
You can see that
*the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language*.

----------


## DejaVu

Tell that to iapetoc and discuss it with him.

----------


## how yes no 2

> DejaVu
> You can see that
> *the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language*.


Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...

what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...

----------


## DejaVu

*What was like the ancient Macedonian language? (continued)*


*In the ancient Macedonian onomasticon we will include several Brygian names (most of them found in Macedonia) as well. This is for the simple reason that Brygians played a major role in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Macedonians 30). But to pass on to concrete instances. We will mention a portion of the ancient Macedonian names which are the same or very similar to later Macedonian names or words, as well as names and words of the other so called "Slavic languages". Most of these names are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon 31) .* 

*Ata(s).* The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them. Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example Bulgarians have their popular name Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name "Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Apell(es)*. The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we have in the present day Macedonian language. 
Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love" exist in a majority of lexicons. 

*Bere(s).* The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages. Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Crater(us*)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater) which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate". 

*Caran(us)*33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Dada.* The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Daron.* This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Del(us).* The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name "Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Dimno(s).* The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Diplai(os)*34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument. 

*Dita.* The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means "a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same name "Dita". 

*Dita(s).* This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been Hellenized with the suffix "s". 

*Dud(es).* The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Glaukia(s)*35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36) 

*Gauan(us).* This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval", that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and Gavala. 

*Kopria.* This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra. 

*Lasten.* This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian: "lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Lyka.* This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face). The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Milo.* This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka). 

*Mesti(us).* The root of this name contains the noun (archaism) "mesti" (small childrens' shoes made from wool). In later Macedonian onomasticon there were also names derived from pieces of clothes. 

*Mamina.* This name fully corresponds to the present day Macedonian adjective "mamina" (the one who belongs to her mother). In 18th and 19th century Macedonia one finds the female name Maminka. 

*Mama.* This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama", which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama). 

*Mama(s).* It is obvious that this is a Hellenized variant on the previous name. 
Manta. The noun "mantija", that exists in the present day Macedonian language represents a type of long garment. In 19th century Macedonia one finds the same female name Manta. 

*Mantyes.* This is probably a variant of the previous name. The spoken form of this word (without the suffix "s") is still closer to the noun "mantija". 

*Med(es).* The root of this name contains the noun "med" (honey), which exists in todays' Macedonian language as well in most other "Slavic" languages. The name Mede is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Myrcin(us).* Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni, mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Mucati.* The verb "mucati" exists in a number of the "Slavic" languages. In the Macedonian language the verb "mucna" means "to speak". Maybe this name can be connected to the noun "mucka" (snout). If we read "c" as "k", then maybe the root of this name can be connected to the noun "mukach" (which means a cry baby). The names Mucan Muce, Mucko, Mukan, Muko are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Nana.* The noun "nana" in the Macedonian language today is used to signify an older female relative. In dialectal form "nana" takes the form of the verb, to sleep. The name Nana is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Pita.* The noun "pita" (a type of food), can be found in a number of "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name Pito. There are other Macedonian names derived from the food: Piroshka, Pituluca and others. 

*Pittak(os).* Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun "pitach" exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the meaning, "one who begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Plator.* The noun "plat" exists in the present day Macedonian language as a type of high quality cloth. The suffix "or" is encountered in other male personal names, which means that it is independent of the root "plat". The name Platin is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Pyri(as).*The root of this name could be connected to the noun "pir" (merriment). The name Piri is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Pyrh(os).* This is probably a variant of the previous name. 

*Perustae.* The noun "perustija" in the present day Macedonian language means an iron spit for cooking meat over a fire, an item that had great significance in the preparation of food in the past. The name Peruska is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Rumi*37). A female name that could possibly be connected to the adjective "rumena" (ripe red). In todays' Macedonian onomasticon there is name "Rumi", which is short form of the name "Rumena" (ripe red). 

*Sita.* A name that is identical to the present day Macedonian adjective "sita" (eating to satisfaction). The male name Sitko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Sopol(is).*This ancient Macedonian name is mentioned by the Greek historian Arrian as the name of a Macedonian officer in the army of Alexander the Great. It obviously contains the root "sopol" (a strong spring) from the so called "Old Slavic language". The name Sopol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Stasanor.* This name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stasan" (ripe). We've said that the suffix "or" can be found in other male names, which means that it is outside of the root "stasan". The names Stasin, Stase and Staso are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Silen(us).* Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane. 

*Stamen(os)*38). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stamen" (reliable, firm). The name Stamen is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Sever(os).* The root of this word contains the noun "sever" (north), which exists in in a number of present day "Slavic" languages. The name Sever is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Sipa.* In the Macedonian language there exists the noun "sipa" (a type of fish), which lives in Macedonian lake waters. It is a well known practice to derive personal names from the names of animals. The name Sipe is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Sipa(s).* This is obviously a Hellenized variant of the previous name. 

*Scritia*39). The adjective "skrita" (secret) is apparent in this name that exists in "Slavic" languages. 

*Tata, Tato, Tataia.* These are obvious variations of a name derived from the noun "tato" i "tata", which means "a father" and can be found in several "Slavic" languages. The name "Tataia" probably is a variant on these two names. In middle age Macedonia one find the names: Tato, Tate, Tatko, Tatka, Tatin. 

*Temen(os).* The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "temen" (dark). 

*Traizina.* The root of this word may contain the present day Macedonian adjective "trazena" (expected, sought). 

*Tip(as).* The root of this name contains the noun "tip" (type), which is a word found in several Slavic languages. The names Tipa and Tipe are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Vitel(is).* The root of this name contains the noun "vitel", which is found in the present day Macedonian and still means (whirlpool). The name Vitol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Zaika.* This is one of the most interesting ancient Macedonian female names. It may represent a female form of the present day Macedonian "zajak" (rabbit). In any case, there are numerous examples of names taken from names of animals. The names Zaia (Zaja) and Zaiko (Zajko) are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 

*Zaimina.* The present day Macedonian language contains the adjective "zemjina" (in dialectal form "zemina") which means "the one who belongs to Earth". There is also the adjective "zimna" (the one who belongs to the winter"). The name Zemko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon. 
We would also add to this list the name of the well-known Brygian goddess *Zemela*, who was goddess of the earth. There is an obvious similarity to the Macedonian noun "zemja" (in dialectal form: "zemla"), which is similar in other "Slavic" languages. 
We would also mention the name of a Brygian tribe, the "*Mushki*", who lived in the 9th century before Christ. Their name is identical to the noun "mushki" (men), which exists in other "Slavic" languages. Their king was called *Mita* a name which remains unchanged in a number of "Slavic" languages. 

*There are other personal names of ancient Macedonians which in their spoken form have associations with present day Macedonian words, but only some of the more obvious examples have been mentioned.*

----------


## DejaVu

> Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
> it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...
> 
> what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...


Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).

----------


## Garrick

> *What was like the ancient Macedonian language?*


*All of these words you referring are the Serbian*.

"tshelnik" = *čelnik* = "leader of a group"
"tshelo" = *čelo* = "forehead"
"voinik" = *vojnik* = "soldier"
"vodi" "voden" = *voden* = "abudance of water"
"spila" = *špilja* = "hole in the stone"
"sudii" = *sudija* = "judge"
"zari se" = *zari se* = "thrust itself in"

etc.


*You say that Ancient Macedonian was Serbian, so do you know how much you give wings Serbian nacionalists when it read*.


And Serbian is very very similar to Croatian and Bosnian.

Therefore:

Bosnians can say that the ancient Macedonian actually Bosnian.

Croats can say that the ancient Macedonian is Croatian.

etc.

----------


## DejaVu

*There is plenty of ancient, middle age and modern age narrative evidence concerning the analogy between the culture of the ancient Macedonians and the culture of the Veneti (ancestors of the "Slavs").* 


The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in his biography of Alexander The Great wrote that the Veneti from Asia Minor region of Paphlagonia took part in the army of Alexander The Great. Quintus Curtius Rufus mentioned an interesting piece of information. He wrote that Philotas, a Macedonian who was a naturilised Hellen, teased his fellow Macedonians by calling them "Phrygians or Paphlagians"40). He also wrote that the Macedonians were unhappy about this and complained to Alexander The Great. Two very important points to note here: Philotas equated the terms Phrygians and Paphlagonians. It is well known that the Phrygians (in the Balkans were known as Brygians) became the constitutional ethno-cultural core of the ancient Macedonians, whereas the term Paphlagonians represents a geographic name for Veneti, i.e. for the ancestors of the "Slavs". What this means actually is that Philotas equated the ancient Macedonians and the Veneti, and this happened before IV BC.
Even earlier than this, Herodotus wrote that Phrygians (ancient Macedonians) and Paphlagonians (ancestors of the "Slavs") wore very similar clothes 41). 

There is narrative evidence regarding the analogy between the "Slav" and ancient Macedonian culture from a later period as well. The Byzantine historian and writer Nichephore Gregoras during his visit to the Macedonian town of Strumica in 1326, recorded that there he heard a large number of Macedonian folk songs. He affirms that, although he did not understand the language of the local population, the folk songs from Strumica definitely resembled - the Phrygian folk songs!42) 
Also in the later periods a lot of foreign and Macedonian activists declared that the "Slavs" were the same people as the ancient Macedonians! 
Mauro Orbini, in his book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" (1601), wrote about the presence of the "Slavs" during the period of Alexander The Great, even as a part of his army. In this book, Orbini published a document, which represents a Charter, that was sent to the "Slavs" by Alexander The Great as a gesture of gratitude for taking part in Alexander's battles 43). It is important to note that Alexander's biographer Quintus Curtius Rufus also wrote that the Veneti were a part of the Macedonian army. 

The renowned Croatian historian from XVI century Vinko Pribichevich, in his book "About the Origin and the Adventures of Slavs" (Venice, 1532) asserts that ancient Macedonians are "Slavs". Middle-age Croatian reformists H. Lucich, D. Zatarich, I. Gundulich, J. Palmotich and others, also shared this belief and they all considered Alexander The Great a Slav. Matijan Alberti of Split (1561-1623) also supported this theory. 

Ancient Macedonians were considered to be "Slavs" (Veneti) by a number of poets from Dubrovnik, and also a number of Russian historians: Butkov, Saveljev, Rostislavich and Chertkov, as well as archimandrites Leonid and Filrot. Mickevich from the Chair at the French College in Paris, in 1844 declared that the "Slavs are the oldest nation in Europe"44). 

The German scholar Kuno, as well as the scholars Lelev and Bjeloski, put forward their assertion that not only the Hellenes but also the "Slavs" always lived on the Balkan peninsula, together with the Hellenes. The same was maintained by the highly distinguished Pavle J. Shafranich (who published a few books on this subject), as well as the Russian consul in Bitola, Hitrov. This theory was represented by some Serbian activists at the time 45). 

Renown Croatian folklorist from Bosnia Stefan Verkovich during his extended visit to Macedonia in the 19th century recorded a large number of Macedonian folklore deeds and in his letter to the newspaper "Dragoljub" in Zagreb published in 1868 wrote: "The Slavs, and not the Greeks, are the forefathers of the civilisation"46). 
In his work "Veda Slovena" (1874) Verkovich wrote:"Our Slavs had a lively tradition even in the times of Alexander The Great". 

Bulgarian writer Stefan Zahariev claimed that the "Slavs" are the oldest inhabitants of the Balkans and their literacy dates prior to the brothers St. Cyril and St. Methodius47). 

In an Albanian history book from the 19th century has been stated that the Macedonians are the indigenous people of the Balkans and that Alexander The Great was a "famous Macedonian-Slav tzar". These views were shared by renown Macedonian intelectuals from the 19th century: Isaija Mazhovski, Gjorgji Pulevski, Nikola D. Chuparov and others, who believed that the ancient Macedonians and the "Slavs" are in fact the same people48). 

*Although the official Macedonian historiography (especially during the totalitarian regime in the period after the World War II until its indepence) mainly considered such articulations as national-romanticism, the future research will show whether there is any truth to the above claims.*

----------


## DejaVu

> *All of these words you referring are the Serbian*.
> 
> "tshelnik" = *čelnik* = "leader of a group"
> "tshelo" = *čelo* = "forehead"
> "voinik" = *vojnik* = "soldier"
> "vodi" "voden" = *voden* = "abudance of water"
> "spila" = *špilja* = "hole in the stone"
> "sudii" = *sudija* = "judge"
> "zari se" = *zari se* = "thrust itself in"
> ...


*Thats why its important to do a research before claiming anything.*

----------


## Garrick

> Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).


A lot wrong.

*Albanians are now 25 to 30% of FYROM Macedonia population*.

Studies show that the *Albanian population in Macedonia increases much faster than the Macedonian*.

For approximately *thirty to thirty five years* will almost *equal the Albanian and Macedonian populations in Macedonia FYROM*, and certainly then, *Albanians and Turks together will surpass the Slavo Macedonians*. 

Initiate that Slavo Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians just going into the hands of Albanians, and so now widely proclaimed that *Alexander the Great is Albanian* and that they *are descendants of ancient Macedonians*, and 
can you imagine that someone will discover that the *new proof which connect Ancient Macedonians and Albanians*, what would happen?

No, you can not even *imagine*.

Actually today is run from the truth, *FYROM Macedonians must a lot more work with the Albanians, but less with the Greeks*.

----------


## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski
The *Burushaski* or *Burushko* language (Urdu: بروشسکی burū́šaskī), is a language isolate (that is, not known to be related to any other language of the world). It is spoken by some 87,000 (as of 2000) Burusho people in the Hunza, Nagar, Yasin, and Ishkoman valleys and some parts of the Gilgit valley in the Northern Areas in Pakistan and by about 300 Burusho people in Srinagar, India.Other names for the language are Brugaski, Kanjut (Kunjoot), Verchikwār, Boorishki, Brushas (Brushias), and Miśa:ski.

Today Burushaski contains numerous loanwords from Urdu (including English and Sanskrit words received via Urdu), and from neighbouring Dardic languages such as Khowar and Shina, as well as a few from Turkic languages and from the neighboring Sino-Tibetan language Balti, but the original vocabulary remains largely intact. The Dardic languages also contain large numbers of loanwords from Burushaski.
There are three divergent dialects, named after the main valleys: Hunza, Nagar, and Yasin (also called Werchikwār). The dialect of Yasin is thought to be the least affected by contact with neighboring languages and is generally less similar to the other two than those are to each other; nevertheless all three dialects are mutually intelligible.



*Ilija Chashule "Basic Burushaski Etymologies"(Muenchen Newcastle , ISBN 3 89586 0891) with the similarities between the modern Macedonian and Burushaski language:*

*abstract*

BU:
ASHMILAS, ASHMILJ = to pacify, placade, persuade, also MILI as a title for the beloved in folk song.
PRO-SLAV:
mil`= dear,
LYTV: mylas and meilus = dear.
MK:
MIL =dear, Smiluva, Smili = to pacify.

BU:
ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.
MK:
SPALE,ZAPALE = to burn, to set in flames.

BU:
ASH = neck, nape of neck, external trhoat.The locativ of the ASH is ASHI
PSlav, MK:
Shija = neck.It is also related to the word SHITI = to sew

*The BURushaski word in its special locative form both semantically and phonetically parallels Slavic.*


BU:
BALKAS( IN LOCATIV: BILKIS) = treasure
SOUTH SLAV: BLAGO = treasure
MK NAME: BLAGA = treasure.

BU:
BERKAT = Berg, Mountain.
MK: BREG= Berg, Mountain.
PROSLAV:
BERG´ = berg, Mountain

BU:
BIRI= boiling
MK: VRIE = boiling...as so many times mentioned, B and V are changed many times, Servia=Serbia.

BU:
BÚR = a single hair.
ANC MK :
ABROUWES = eye brows
PRO SLAV, Old SLAV:
BRY, (GENETIV: BR'EVE) = eye brow.

BU:
D*- ASPASAS, D*-SPASASH = to protect, save, rescue.
MK:
SPASE = save,
DA SPASESH = to save someone.

BU:
DELAS, DELIAS, DELJ = 1)to beat, strike, smite, hit, shoot,...2) to kill to slay
SANSKRIT:
DALATI = crack, splits
PRO SLAV:
DELATI = to work.
MK:
DELIA = Mythical Hero who kills the Turks.

GARU( ALSO: GARÚKI) = spring

ALSO: GARÚM = hot GARÚRUM = hot, warm, AS NOUN: GARÚRUMKUSH = heat.

GARI = lamp, light , pupil of eye.

ANC MK:
GORPIAIOS = a hot Macedonian Month
MK:
GREE = warm, to warm
GARE= warming meal, cook soup.

BU:
GIRATAS; GIRASH = to dance, play
OLD SLAV, MK:
IGRA = dance, play
MK:
IGRASH = you play, nominative form from IGRA.


*ENGLISH / BURUSHI / MACEDONIAN*
HAND / SHAKA / SHAKA
Arm / RAKA / RAKA
Thunder / GROM / GROM
Raining / VRNE / VRNE
Looking / GLEDA / GLEDA
sit(down) / SEDI / SEDI
Drink / PIE / PIE
Beautiful /UBAVA / UBAVA

----------


## DejaVu

> A lot wrong.
> 
> *Albanians are now 25 to 30% of FYROM Macedonia population*.
> 
> Studies show that the *Albanian population in Macedonia increases much faster than the Macedonian*.
> 
> For approximately *thirty to thirty five years* will almost *equal the Albanian and Macedonian populations in Macedonia FYROM*, and certainly then, *Albanians and Turks together will surpass the Slavo Macedonians*. 
> 
> Initiate that Slavo Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians just going into the hands of Albanians, and so now widely proclaimed that *Alexander the Great is Albanian* and that they *are descendants of ancient Macedonians*, and 
> ...


*No comment.* 

*Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)

----------


## DejaVu

If the stealing of identity will continue then it will be the same for all and continue all the time and nobody will know who is who. Thats why its important to make no importance of identity or belonging. All can be European in EU and no more identities are needed (self-determination will continue to exist, but will not be needed to claim anything, there will be nothing to claim).

----------


## Michael Folkesson

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

----------


## iapetoc

Oh GoD 
*Pella* comes From Greek Pellos (mount Pelion)
Alexander him self says DEDIOKETAI TOIS PELLASIN Δεδιωκεται τοις Πελλασιν in India
Pella means old-strong-wise

Now *phoinikos* is phoenikos means killer the one who learned to kill
today is phoneas (man) phonikos (weapon)

*tshelnikue* 
Even today the captain of a floak of goats or sheeps is named *Tseligas in Greek*
Tseligkas is the leader of the Tsopans and also the leader of the family-clan
Comes from the ancient Greek Zeu-Lynx means the Holy wild-cat (Lynx) that quards the tsopans not to steel, he is the judge and the policeman of the breeders,

Edessa
Water in Greek Ydor -Idor in Makedonian Vydros Vidros in Vrygian _bedu_ -edu
that is why the Edessa means Tower in the water in Ancient Thracian-Phrygian
Βέδυ is linguistically connected to the Greek words "hydor" Greek: ύδωρ , "water", "bidra" Greek: βίδρα, Otter, "idros" Greek: ίδρως, sweat and "idrosa"Greek: ίδρωσα, sweated.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece*
As you see The Makedonians Have Edessa not Vodenna

*Pesh -Pat*
The Ancient Greek word-verb for walk Is Paet-o ->Pat-o 
walk around per-pat-o 
That is Ariannos says Alexandros E-pat-axe-n aftis (Αλεξανδρος επαταξε αυτοις)
Means walk among them with weapon,

*sarissa HAHAHAHAHA 

aris-(s)a  nominative
aridos possessive
aridι dative
arissa accusative
*soldiers hold την αρισσα (thalassa etc)*

arissa means drill weapon or tool
*but also today in Greek*
Sarothron* a wipping tool with* long wooden Stick 
Sarakion* a worm of wood
*Arida*  long stick, also the feet of a tall man
*Σαρωνω* Sarono means I absolute win, sweep enemies (find out why)


*DEJAVU COPY PASTE

STILL BULLSHIT TO SPAM

if SLAVIC is Mirca 
in Greek IS MYRSINA or MYRSINA

any words you write is Greek or IE
spilja in Greek 
is Andron (the habited cave)
Spilia Σπηλια the non habited cave, the calcium carst phenomena
is Pillon (the cave of a clay or calcium rock)* 
*ΕΙΣ ΠΗΛΟΝ*

----------


## iapetoc

MAN STOP F****** LANGUAGES  :Useless:  :Useless:  :Useless:  :Useless:  :Useless:  :Useless:  :Useless: 
*
GLAUKA MEANS OWL* 
cause her eyes are Glau (glaf)
besides Glaukoma means something to you

you are a lunatic
a fanatic Blind 

where did you find that meanings
in a cheap book of a stupid
Learn ancient Greek first and then you realize what means

All you say has a different meaning In Greek And MAkedonian,
What did you do?
you take 1-2-3 words and change meanings
well then a text has no meaning
ARE YOU NUTS
ALL THE WORLDS YOU MENTIONED HAVE ALSO A GREEK OR A IE OR ANOTHER MEANING 


*I GAVE YOU THAT
THE MOST AnCIENT LEXICON OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN
IS THERE ANY SLAVIC WORD?*
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language*

----------


## Elias2

Dejavu is a professional propagandist! lol 

Vardarska for the Vardarskans!

----------


## iapetoc

*ENGLISH / BURUSHI / MACEDONIAN


*BU:
_ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:_
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.

AS YOU SAY* PROSLAV*

now stay In Slavic fake Makedonian
With your Original SERBIAN AND BULGARIAN KINGS

*YOUR DREAM TO BE A MAKEDONIAN WILL NEVER COME TRUE

** cause if you choose to a slavic* (it is a priviledge)
then you Deny your Ancient Makedonian ROOT
*IF YOU CHOOSE TO BE a Makedonian* (another priviledge)
then you deny your slavic roots

ACCEPT IT AND CHOOSE
*WE WILL ALWAYS BE HERE TO REMIND YOU YOUR HOAX*

The Greeks
the Serbs 
The Bulgarians
The Albanians
THE SCIENTISTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
THE ANCIENT SCIENTISTS
*EVEN THE STONES AND THE COINS OF MY GRAND GRAND FATHERS*

----------


## DejaVu

*"He who hath an ear ..... have understanding"*

*"Research it .... know the truth"*

*"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."*
*Ephesians 6:12*

----------


## DejaVu

*To call all words Greek is madness. Greek language is nothing but stolen words from other cultures.* 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
When the Phoenician alphabet was first uncovered in the 19th century, its origins were unknown. Scholars at first believed that the script was a direct variation of Egyptian hieroglyphs. This idea was especially popular due to the recent decipherment of hieroglyphs. However, scholars could not find any link between the two writing systems. Certain scholars[_who?_] hypothesized ties with Hieratic, Cuneiform, or even an independent creation, perhaps inspired by some other writing system. The theories of independent creation ranged from the idea of a single man conceiving it, to the Hyksos people forming it from corrupt Egyptian.

The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, used to write early Hebrew, was a regional offshoot of, but was rooted in Phoenician; it is nearly identical to the Phoenician one. The Samaritan alphabet, used by the Samaritans, is a direct descendant of the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.
The Aramaic alphabet, used to write Aramaic, is another descendant of Phoenician. Aramaic being the _lingua franca_ of the Middle East, it was widely adopted. It later split off (due to power/political borders) into a number of related alphabets, including the Hebrew alphabet, the Syriac alphabet, and the Nabataean alphabet. Thus Phoenician was the origin of the Arabic alphabet which is the major alphabet of the Arabic Middle East - from Iraq, the Levant, and North Africa.

According to Herodotus, Phoenician prince Cadmus was accredited with the introduction of the Phoenician alphabet—_phoinikeia grammata_, "Phoenician letters"—to the Greeks, who adapted it to form their Greek alphabet, which was later introduced to the rest of Europe. Herodotus, who gives this account, estimates that Cadmus lived sixteen hundred years before his time, or around 2000 BC. However, Herodotus' writings are not used as a standard source by contemporary historians. The Greek alphabet is derived from the Phoenician alphabet. The phonology of Greek being different from that of Phoenician, the Greeks modified the Phoenician script to better suit their language. It was particularly more important in Greek to write out vowel sounds: Phoenician being a Semitic language, words were based on consonantal roots that permitted extensive removal of vowels without loss of meaning, a feature absent in the Indo-European Greek. For this reason the Greeks adapted some of the signs of the Phoenician script that represented unused consonants for vowels. For example _ʾāleph_, which designated a glottal stop in Phoenician, was re-purposed to represent the vowel /a/.
The Cyrillic alphabet was derived from the Greek alphabet. Some Cyrillic letters are based on Glagolitic forms, which were influenced by the Hebrew alphabet.[_citation needed_]
The Latin alphabet was derived from Old Italic (originally a form of the Greek alphabet), used for Etruscan and other languages. The Runic alphabet also seems to have been derived from an early form of Old Italic alphabet, via the Alpine scripts.

Most historians believe that the Brahmi script and the subsequent Indic alphabets are derived from the Aramaic script as well, which would make Phoenician the ancestor of most writing systems in use today. This possibly includes even hangul, which may have been influenced by Brahmic Phagspa. This would mean that of all the major national scripts in use in the world today, only the Chinese script and its derivatives have an independent origin.

----------


## iapetoc

> *"He who hath an ear ..... have understanding"*
> 
> *"Research it .... know the truth"*
> 
> *"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."*
> *Ephesians 6:12*


*

He who Speaks truth have nothing to fear*,
*
You can't serve two masters, 
either you Betrayed one,*
Ancient Makedonians or Slavic people

12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 * I know where you live*—*where Satan has his throne*. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives. 
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: T*here are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality*. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 
17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, * known only to the one who receives it*.




*Revelation 2*

in other words

T*here are some among you who hold to the teaching of Communism, who taught Tito to entice the Slavic people to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to GREEKS and committed sexual immorality

Repent therefore! 


** known only to the one who receives it*.
you are not cause your Language and knowledge is Far beyond to realize the words of Argeians


Ancient Makedonia is one, and was is and wiil be Greek 3000 years
Slavic-Makedonia is a free state with modern roots 1500 years,

----------


## DejaVu

Illyrian language
Indo-European language spoken in pre-Roman times along the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea and in southeastern Italy. 
The language of the Illyrian fragments found in Italy is usually called Messapic, or Messapian. 
Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (*?????????*) (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian.

*Those scholars are so blind.*..

----------


## Garrick

> *No comment.* 
> 
> *Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.*
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)


DejaVu
I am neither Serbian nor Albanian nationalists, I am a *researcher*.

I read many sources and opposing one another, to gather its findings.

The *Albanians* I would never underestimate, they *will soon overtake the number of Bulgarians in the Balkans*, and be *the fifth nation* in population after the Turks, Romanians, Greeks and Serbs.

And the *Albanian population is the youngest*.


You can see how *Albanias see Macedonia*:

(Clip Youtube)

"The writings of Ancient Greek and Roman authors confirm implicitly the *Illyrian identity of Ancient Macedonians*: *Pliny the Elder* [IV, X, 33], *Strabo* [7,7,1; 7.7.8; 7, 11], *Ptolemy* [3,12]

Based on this clear information, *a large number of historians and linguists of the XIX-th and XX-th century* uphold a *hypothesis on Illyrian identity of Macedonians*. We can mention here: *Karl Otfrid Muller, William Smith, Charl Anthony, G. Finlay* etc.

Later on, other well known linguists that do support the thesis of *Illyrian essence in the Ancient Macedonians language* are: *G. Kazaroff, M. Rostovtzeff, M. Budimir, H. Baric* (*Miltiades Hatzopoulos*: 1999).

Even the greatest supporters of the hypothesis that the Macedonians were Greeks, do accept a *strong influence of the Illyrian language into the Ancient Macedonian language*.

*Paliga* states: “It is therefore difficult to say ehether the ancient Macedonians spoke idiom closer to Thracian, Illyrian, Greek or a specific idiom.” (Paglia cited in Fol 2002 : 219)

*Hammond* accepts that when: “the Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples who spoke Illyrian, Paeoninan, Thracian and Phrygian, and they certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors of lexica and glossaries”. (Hammond: 1989)

To be fair, the *debate on the characteristics of the Macedonian language is still unfinished*, because there are: ‘*theories varying from a basically Illyrian “creole” to a Greek-thracian-illyrian ‘pidgin’*. (*Anastasios-Phoivos Christides* 2007)

Archaeological data show an *undisputable Illyrian presence in the Ancient Macedonia*. Archaeological findings in *Vergina* (Aigai – an Illyrian fondation, i.e capital of Ancient Macedonia) show similarity as well as uniformity to the Glasinac culture.

...

The latest archaeological findings do support this statement. Here, we can mention the *table with inscriptions* found a *decade ago near Greek-Macedonian border*.

...
The most reasonable and logical explanation regarding the *etymology of the name of the Ancient Macedonia* is found in *the language of Illyrians and Epirotes*, who were the *ethnic inhabitants of Ancient Macedonia*.

The very name of *Macedonia*, formerly known as ‘*Emathia*,’ derives in all probability from the *Albanian word “**E Madhia**”, meaning “The Greatest”*. (*Larned et al* 1922)

...
Even during the *Medieval times, the Byzantine writers refer to Albanians as Macedonians*. *Macedonian at that time marked someone who spoke Albanian*. Until *about the fifteenth century Albanians were not called Albanians but Illyrians, or even Macedonians*.

This means that the *terms Macedonian, Illyrian and Albanian were interchangeable* and were used to note the Medieval Albanian. At that time, even the *educated Albanians were signing and declaring themselves as Macedonianas*.

...
As shown above, the ancient written material, the archaeological findings, as well as mythological, ethnographical and linguistic material, they all testify to the fact that *Macedonia** was and is Albanian during 4000 years of her history*.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=97NS-uZMohw


And you can see modern times in Macedonia FYROM

*Albanians promote statue of Skenderbeg, Skopje*

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp0WaDnqsA&feature=related

----------


## DejaVu

Looks like you are afraid of your own shadow.

If you did not notice so far in modern times its about United States and their way to rule the world. Illuminati, Freemasons, Skulls and bones . . .

Dont forget - "What goes around comes around"

----------


## Garrick

> Looks like you are afraid of your own shadow.
> 
> If you did not notice so far in modern times its about United States and their way to rule the world. Illuminati, Freemasons, Skulls and bones . . .
> 
> Dont forget - "What goes around comes around"


DejaVu
These are serious and respected researchers, you can read their biographies:

*Karl Otfried Müller* (August 28, 1797–August 1, 1840), was a German scholar and Philodorian, or admirer of ancient Sparta, who introduced the modern study of Greek mythology.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Otfried_M%C3%BCller

Sir *William Smith* Kt. (1813–1893) was a noted English lexicographer.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_(lexicographer)

*Charles Anthon* (November 19, 1797 – July 29, 1867) was an American classical scholar, born in New York City.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Anthon

*George Finlay* (1799–1875), historian, of Scottish descent, was born at Faversham, Kent, where his father, an officer in the army, was inspector of government powder mills. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay

----------


## iapetoc

[QUO_TE=DejaVu;364841]Illyrian language
Indo-European language spoken in pre-Roman times along the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea and in southeastern Italy. 
The language of the Illyrian fragments found in Italy is usually called Messapic, or Messapian. 
Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (?????????) (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian.

Those scholars are so blind._ _..

_ _[/QUOTE]

english Ancient Greek IE Non IE Greek Tyrrshenian Thrasian? 
a stream rea roe- rema Lun
water Hydor (idor) idro neto notismeno animeno thrassian Edu
swamp Elos  Barikos Balticos baltos Telma Louni-__Luni thrasian  Bara
puddle Limn-e Limen-e Pellag-os = Sea, Pelago
woman Gyn-i Gen-e (Gwen) Gre-a (γραια)
Brother Frater -> a-terf-os 
husks of grapes (φλοιοι)floie-vlioie GRMAK Vlid-es stemfila stipura 
dog κυων ceon Kion (skilos from skula) 
cow agelas kthnos-ktinos
cow niples  maesti
famous Femis-menos but also Cleιnon Κλεινον Αστυ Kleos-Gleo = Grorius
wolf lykos λυκος Gr Mak (Danat-os, end of life-death)
oak Drus Dris, Gr Mak BALLA Dorian Belan-os (-idia),  Kerk-ops(athenean old language, Tyrrshenian) 
lake Lugo Thracian Lago porto lagos
great  Meg-as GR MAK Taran-os Dorian Tarant-as Teran 
horse Pollos (foal), Epibetor Ippos (Alogon=no speech)
between Mesa ,  meta + dative case
lake Limne
waterfall ydatoptosis -ydroptosis Kataraktis, 
GR MAK  oessa-essa (Edessa=edu+ossa), Gr Aeolian Oetta ss=tt thalatta=thalassa also ss=δ=d (Mt Ossa Mt Oite city Edessa) Tyrrshenian 

strong Sthenaros Gr Makedonian Pellios Pellasin= makedonian council of strong Families Gr Aeolian-Thessalian Pallios_ _ palle= wrestling__ (ancient olympic game)
Tyrsshenian__ Thracian_ _ Pell-Pall mt Pellion, pellekis= axe (strong edge)

clouds nefel GrMAK nevel also syn+nefel=synnefo
salt  als-alat
spear aris-(sa) (to drill-penetrate) dori (from oak tree) akontio-ekontio (javelin)
Homeric (a)ksifei (sharp metal) Λογχη = lonche (the sharp metal infront of spear) 
merchant Fertos (tertos also tertip-os) Non IE emporos
tribe people Φυλλη Phyll- Phill (fill) NonΙΕ Edos-Ednos (Mak-ednos) also ethnos 
Tyrrshenian Thracian edi-ethi (apsynthi, bithini, maedi Sithones-Sethones melanditae Paeti Aedi mygdones__

ves καλος αριστος ev (ευ) ev+genos = kind Noble 
ev+arestos = goodlooking
ev+echo = good wish etc

good spirits Evoion-a Evion Evchae



Want more Deja Vu?
or you can't speak Ancient Makedonian

_*ALL THE WORDS YOU GIVE ARE IE 
YOU MUST FIND THE NON IE TO CONNECT PEOPLE 
UNDERSTAND THAT
YOU CAN'T GIVE IE WORDS AND COMPARE
YOU MUST FIND THE NON IE LANGUAGE TO COMPARE
SO STOP BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA*

----------


## DejaVu

Greek without the real language and root "Phoenician alphabet", is nothing and nobody cared to speak it today, its over with the crap language. Even the ancient Macedonians didnt give a damn about it, used for all others to understand the common language in antiquity, like english is today. Modern Greek and Albanian language does not sound European at all. The Greek Civilization using others progress, who was not theirs, did not last long.

----------


## Garrick

Iapetoc
Who do you think has more sources that can build their own constructions about alleged descedents of Ancient Macedonians?

Albanians,

Slav Macedonians,

Nobody of them.

----------


## DejaVu

> Iapetoc
> Who do you think has more sources that can build their own constructions about alleged descedents of Ancient Macedonians?
> 
> Albanians,
> 
> Slav Macedonians,
> 
> Nobody of them.


Macedonia will never join Serbia, how much you even try to write crap here. Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.

----------


## Garrick

> Macedonia will never join Serbia, how much you even try to write crap here. Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.


DejaVu
you gave me the epithets so far is really does not make sense, someone else in my place would cease to talk with you, and personally I do not want a rematch words, this means, we can speak the power of arguments, ideas, sources and so on, but without the personal insults.

I am a researcher, just when I get into a topic I want to explore it from all sides.

For example, you completely ignore the Albanians and Albanian sources.

I do not ignore anyone, and the Albanians are certainly not to be underestimated, nor their history or the present, and you see Albanians proclaim they are descedents of Ancient Macedonians and they refer to a variety of sources.

----------


## iapetoc

Garric

the connection among Makedonians Illyrians and Thracians is very well written in Arrian
soon a war is going to happened
every body knows that

I can't tell the alliances

but Yugoslavia war is nothing to compare with what is coming

oil drilling in Albania Greece Turkey Cyprus Bulgaria and pipes to Europe
why do you thing UN NATO have army in Fyrom????
the crossroad and the center to provide 

now about Ancient Makedonians is more complex
the central Makedonia was Argeian Dynasty from north Thessaly
Greeks near Thracians with Greco-Thracian accent
The west Makedonians were Aeolians with Illyro-Thrasian accent 
above Makedonia were also Thrasians and Illyrians 
The Doberes (dobre) and the Paeonians ->near to slavic people 
above the west Makedonians were dardani Illyro thracians
the Makedonia started with 4 cities (heracleia Dion Pydna Balla) later took lands of Vrygi (edessa-Aiges-Pella) wich were a nation semi Greek semi thracian,
they had Greek isotones and many grammar laws like Greek but a Tyrrshenian semi Greek semi east Thracian 
the Boettians, Cretans who invade Makedonia at 1100 BC moved east south oF doiran lake and north of Chalkidiki next to mygnonians

later Amyntas unite Mygdonians Boettians Aianes(aeolians) and Illyro-thracian of Ochrid to a state, a kingom,
that is why many Makedonian pellasioi (nobles-prince-barons)
could not speak south Greek,
and that is why makedonians pronounced v the f etc
if you read Areianos you see the connections of some families with Greco-Illyrians
example Kleitos (general)
the system was 1 emperor with a council of elder city kings
a council of Generals, and a council of prince
for example ex athenean collony had a prince not a King
I can't remember for sure but at Phillips times were 13 kings and generals and 26 prince and ambassadors and lower commanders
at Alexanders times reach the 100 near India
By what I remember before Phillip were 2 Illyrian-Makedonian and 3 Thracian (1 king Dobere-Paeoni (Amphaxitis-Skopje) named Driop and general Demetrius and 2 other ambassadors from elsewhere)

the connection is written in Arrian mainly

also in lost books of Pergamos and Alexandreia 
and all peculiar in a Uzbek book !!!!!!!!

----------


## DejaVu

*REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA*
*MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE*
*ETHNIC MACEDONIANS* 
*EXIST*

So keep on spamming whatever you want. Does not matter what you write and your stupid claims have failed, now you seek someone to accept your versions of reality. In other words, get help in time.

----------


## Elias2

Macedonian is not a distinct enough language to be seperate, its more a branch of the south slavic languages. Ethnic macedonians don't exist, the slavs in FYROM call themselves macedonian but I could call myself native aboriginal of canada and it would be the same logic. Macedonia doesn't exist, its FYROM until a comprimise has been reached. 

Have a good day dejavu ;)

----------


## iapetoc

Hellenik rebublic
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ region
ethnicitie :makedonik
nationality: Hellenik
languge: Monder hellenik, hellenistic koine a & b, makedonian dialect


republic of ma*c*edonja
ethnicitie unknown
nationality Slavic
language Bulgarski (Macedonski dialect), Albanian, Srpski 


keep dreaming dejavu
we will always be here

Most sources in and out of Bulgaria before the Second World War referred to the *southern Slavonic dialect continuum* covering the area of today's Republic of Macedonia as a group of Bulgarian dialects.[16][17][18][19][20][21] The local variants of the name of the language are _balgàrtski_, _bolgàrtski,_ bulgàrtski_,[22]_ bògartski, _bogàrtski_, _bùgarski_ or _bugàrski_. Some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.[23][24][25] After WWII, the question about the Bulgarian character of the language in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia was put aside in the name of Bulgarian-Yugoslavian _friendship_ under the pressure of the Soviet Union. After 1958 when the pressure from Moscow decreased, *Sofia turned back to the view that the Macedonian language did not exist as a separate language.*

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language

Besides Genetics proved that Fyrom is more Relative with Serbia and Bosna than with Makedonia 
*

----------


## Garrick

DejaVu

*Greece** is the cradle of European civilization and culture*.

In *Greece** is developed democracy, philosophy, mathematics, natural and social sciences, drama, Olympics* *and others*.

The thought of Greece *every true European* *inspire appreciation and respect*.

Europe would never be what it is that it was not Greece.

When I think that should travel to Greece delight because I go into this wonderful country (but I didn’t go often and will intensify in coming years).

Historical facts. 

*Start of European history begins with the the Greeks*.


And what about *Macedonia** FYROM*?

• *founded in 1945 by the Communists* as a republic within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

• before World War II was in the *territory of the Vardar Banovina of the* *Kingdom of Yugoslavia*,

• before that was the *territory of Serbia who establish the Kingdom of Yugoslavia*, 

• before that was *part of the* *Ottoman Empire*,

• and before that in the *Byzantine Empire, Serbia or Bulgaria*.


DejaVu
*deny if any of this is not true*.

*But everything is completely true*.


*Compare 5000 years of Greece** and 65 years Macedonia FYROM*.

These are *facts and true*, all the rest are deposits of ideology, propaganda and delusion.

----------


## how yes no 2

> DejaVu
> ...
> I am a researcher, just when I get into a topic I want to explore it from all sides.


your posts on this topic do not strike me as researcher kind of posts...more like claiming the things you think will affect DejaVu's emotions the most... perhaps you are into research of human psyche, but to be researcher in history of nations you need to be much more objective....





> I do not ignore anyone, ...


sure you do... you have taken side in this topic...and your side is "against DejaVu", so you ignore all his arguments... some of his arguments are useless as he tends to uncritically transfer what he reads...but some make lot of sense...

----------


## DejaVu

*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract*
*Abstract*
HLA alleles have been determined in *individuals from the Republic of Macedonia* by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks.

*Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,* like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
*Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...* 



*ETHNIC MACEDONIANS OLDEST IN BALKAN (LONGER HISTORY THEN GREEKS).* 
*WAS IN BALKAN BEFORE GREEKS, SERBS, ALBANIANS AND BULGARIANS.* 

ALZHEIMER IN GARRICK´S NATIONALISTIC HEAD. WHEN WILL YOU START WRITING ABOUT THE SERBIAN HISTORY? NEVER, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CLUE. YOU TRIED TO SHOW ALL WITH DIENEKES GENETIC TEST THAT MACEDONIANS ARE SERBS BUT YOU FAILED AND YOU WILL FAIL ALL THE TIME NOW. YOU ARE A BIG LOSER JUST ADMIT IT. FAIL LIKE YOUR GREEK ALLIES THAT HAVE LOST ALL STATEMENTS WITH THE BIBLE, ETHNIC MACEDONIANS WAS BULGARIANS, ETHINC MACEDONIANS DONT EXIST, GREEKS ARE A MIX OF MANY PEOPLE BUT CONTINUED DENIAL, GREEK HISTORY MADE BY OTHERS AND NOT BY GREEKS. GENETIC TEST SHOWED THEY ARE SUB-SAHARAN THAT THEY DENIE, WHAT MORE IS THERE TO PROOF? CONTINUED DENIAL WONT SAVE GREEKS AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN REVEALED. *CONCLUSION: GREEKS ARE FAKE = FACT*

----------


## how yes no 2

> Garric
> 
> the connection among Makedonians Illyrians and Thracians is very well written in Arrian


hm, can you quote some sources?
if there is such a connection, it might as well be about Slavic-alike people as Thracians are satem speakers like Balts, Slavs and Albanians...




> soon a war is going to happened
> every body knows that
> 
> I can't tell the alliances
> 
> but Yugoslavia war is nothing to compare with what is coming


wars are never really good for any of the people who participate in them...
do not hope for a war, and doubt in alliances promised before war...

last years there is obvious attempt to establish Turkish area of influence in Balkan...to revive Ottoman empire....so far it goes via business and politics... few days ago Turkish minister of external affairs was talking fairy tales about Balkan having been prosperous place while it was in Ottoman empire...

if there will be big war in Balkans in next few years, Greece will not be in good position as Turkey have stronger army ... and NATO will not interfere in war between member states... my advice to Greece is to avoid any armed conflict with any of its neighbors in next decade.... as any war in region can escalate easily....

for Macedonia any war in region is also extremely dangerous as it has very weak army....

----------


## DejaVu

> Hellenik rebublic
> ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ region
> ethnicitie :makedonik
> nationality: Hellenik
> languge: Monder hellenik, hellenistic koine a & b, makedonian dialect
> 
> 
> republic of ma*c*edonja
> ethnicitie unknown
> ...


*MODERN GREEKS*
Ethnicity: Christian Turks with Arvanites (Albanians) who play the role of modern (even ancient) Greeks.
Language: Mix of Turkish and Koine (Byzantine common language and adopted to the modern Greeks).
Genetics: Non-European, (Sub-Saharan)

*MODERN MACEDONIANS*
Ethnicity: Original Macedonians (Was Macedonians and will continue to be Macedonians)
Language: Macedonian (One of the oldest languages in Europe and root to all slavic languages)
Genetics: Oldest Balkan people (Original Macedonians)

*THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THIS FACTS, JUST SEE THE OTHER POSTS IN SAME THREAD (Macedonians).*

----------


## DejaVu

*Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!*


Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969. 



*What is the name of the language? MACEDONIAN*
*Who speak Macedonian? MACEDONIANS*


*FACT!*

----------


## DejaVu

*WHAT MAP IS THIS? MACEDONIA*
*WHO LIVED THERE? MACEDONIANS*

*"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that*
*was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"*  


*WHOS FLAG? MACEDONIA*
*PEOPLE? MACEDONIANS* 




*FACT!*

----------


## DejaVu

*DO THEY LOOK LIKE SUB-SAHARANS (GREEKS)?*


*WHO IS THIS? PHILIP II OF MACEDON*
*ETHNICITY: MACEDONIAN*


*WHO IS THIS? ALEXANDER III OF MACEDON*
*ETHNICITY: MACEDONIA**N*


*FACT!*

----------


## Garrick

How yes no,
You can see how ugly words DejaVu said about me and I almost nothing about him except as a most necessary defense.

But he does not understand what I want to say.

I give you examples of what he says:





> Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.







> Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).







> *Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.*
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)


 
He very *underestimates Albanians* and thinks that his only problem is with the Greeks.

But I can put *thousands of sources referred from the Albanians* that *they are descendants of ancient* *Macedonia*, and *these sources are very, very serious and are not to be underestimated*.

He looks only his sources, and disregards the other.

The problem, however, as the *Slav Macedonians sources are thin*.

When I talking in Macedonia FYROM about ancient roots individuals are invited to *Aromanians and some other minorities who are not Greek or Albanian*.

And sources are mainly writings some *Slav Macedonian researchers*.

But believe me, how yes no, Albanian sources are much more serious and there are many Western and other scientists since the nineteenth century till today who in some way *connected the Illyrians/Albanians with the ancient Macedonians*.

Albanian scientists have developed a whole science about it and the sources have much more weight, four Western scientists I have already demonstrated and their biographies.

And new researchings is highly favor the Albanians, I mentioned research E1b1b1 haplogroups in Pakistan, and if you want *I will mention one other discovery*, *archaeological*, which gave *wings to the Albanians claim that they are descendents of Ancient Macedonians*.

How yes no,
*imagine a situation* where you can find Slav Macedonians how construct of ancient buildings and ancient statues placed in Skopje and proclaim the antiquity at every turn and in the meantime *it appears irrefutably a discovery about the Illyrian/Albanian history of ancient* *Macedonia*.

Does it even can imagine what would have happened in this situation?

Because if *Albanians agree dice* and *find compelling evidence*, and already have some arguments, *playing Slav Macedonians on the card ancient* *Macedonia** is a wrong strategy* that leads to disaster.

I’m not Albanian or Serbian or Greek nationalist, just a real person who points out the *reality* and not illusion.

----------


## DejaVu

*WHAT COUNTRY? REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA*
*PEOPLE? MACEDONIANS*


*FLAG? MACEDONIAN*

*WHERE DO THE MACEDONIANS LIVE?* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)


*FACT!*

----------


## DejaVu

> lebrok
> 
> iapetoc is *macedonian (greece)*.
> 
> Dejavu is *slavic macedonian (macedonia, fyrom)*.
> 
> The ancient macedonians according to historical sources, most likely the dorian tribe makednoi.
> Slavomacedonians are closest serbs according to research haplogroup.
> 
> ...


*This is how the insult started.*
*Garrick (Arvanite Greek with Serbian flag) started to claim something that was 100% wrong. I was slavo macedonian and iapetoc macedonian? When both are haplogroup G? Proof 0%.* 
*Dienekes test was not relevant neither accepted by any real genetic research company and will never be accepted if not done with all haplogroups of the countries, he mixed up what would be the best for Greeks (Fake result) = ethnic Macedonians are close to Serbs, thats why they are Serbs and can not be Ancient Macedonians.* *Serbians and macedonians are not same and never will be, get that in your brain.*
*You maybe thought you could get away from your hidden agenda, but nobody will get away that easy.*
*You (Garrick) havent posted anything relevant anywhere and you continue with posting same spam about your love for albanians and greeks all the time, soon it will be a report to moderator to exclude you of this forum.*

----------


## iapetoc

> *modern greeks*
> ethnicity: christian turks with arvanites (albanians) who play the role of modern (even ancient) greeks.
> language: mix of turkish and koine (byzantine common language and adopted to the modern greeks).
> genetics: non-european, (sub-saharan)
> 
> *modern macedonians*
> ethnicity: original macedonians (was macedonians and will continue to be macedonians)
> language: macedonian (one of the oldest languages in europe and root to all slavic languages)
> genetics: oldest balkan people (original macedonians)
> ...


*"Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!*"



*how yes no

does that make sense? with This?

*Most sources in and out of Bulgaria before the Second World War referred to the southern Slavonic dialect continuum covering the area of today's Republic of Macedonia as a group of Bulgarian dialects.[16][17][18][19][20][21] The local variants of the name of the language are _balgàrtski_, _bolgàrtski,_ bulgàrtski_,[22]_ bògartski, _bogàrtski_, _bùgarski_ or _bugàrski_. *Some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.*[23][24][25] * After WWII, the question about the Bulgarian character of the language in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia was put aside in the name of Bulgarian-Yugoslavian friendship under the pressure of the Soviet Union*. After 1958 when the pressure from Moscow decreased, Sofia turned back to the view that the *Macedonian language did not exist as a separate language.*


*Does the Quote Make sence with this*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._431_BC-en.svg
*or this*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._336_BC-en.svg

*watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times*
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Paeonians.png



*now HOW YES NO*
*do you understand????
*
LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
*THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA* 
WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a
same as Serbia and almost Bosnia
Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language

The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek

the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
(Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)
Greco-Thracians 
North East Daci-Thracians
East Odrysse-Thracians
West Illyro-Thracians
Central and North-West tribes that were carriers of I2a (fyrom Bosnia Serbia etc)
Minor Asia Thracians, Italy Thracians
the linguistic and culture connection is bigger as long we back until almost 2-3 000 BC
and it is different before

Today modern Bulgarian and Dacian are trying to connect their language with Ancient Thracian
for example even claim to be Thracian as also Kossovo, turkey etc 
crete spain italy the bull is *Toro* or *tavro* or *tauro*
Athens is *BOL*OS Thessaly Makedonia is *BOL*inthros
Bulgarian Fyrom is *BOL*
Serbian Croatian HUngarian is *BIK*
but the calf is 
Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian* Vodali* *VIDALI* (itali Vitalli)
Aromanian-armani, albanian is *Damali* *Demi*
Athens Central-West Makedonia *Moschos* *Mouskar* 
Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine *Telec*
the last is according History 
*meaning that the word 'telec' came from Ucraine to Balkans*
*at Slavic invasions times (500-600 AD)_*
and not from south-central Balkans (Fyrom) to Ucraine 
*as Dejavu claims*
*"Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages"* 
*But the BOL-BOLOS-Bolinthros tells us that Athens and Bulgaria had similar Language before*
(tyrrshenian)

as you see linguistic the lines although they connect, although they divide,
Many works that have been done by linguists gave similarity by majority of words (mainly not IE) 
and not by one or few, that leads to connection of nations before times
as also Genetic engineering does
you can not have N Y-dna and claim to be ancient Hollander
you maybe are Hollander cause your family lived there 50-1000 years etc and you are assimilated
But that does not mean that Ancient Hollanders were N

*AM I CLEAR HOW YES NO?*

----------


## Garrick

> *This is how the insult started.*
> *Garrick (Arvanite Greek with Serbian flag) started to claim something that was 100% wrong. I was slavo macedonian and iapetoc macedonian? When both are haplogroup G? Proof 0%.*
> *Serbians and macedonians are not same and never will be, get that in your brain.*
> *You maybe thought you could get away from your hidden agenda, but nobody will get away that easy.*
> *You (Garrick) havent posted anything relevant anywhere and you continue with posting same spam about your love for albanians and greeks all the time, soon it will be a report to moderator to exclude you of this forum.*


DejaVu
What you are looking for support for a moderator to me the switch is completely pointless.

You do not understand what I say because you do not want to hear.

But I hope you will now understand.


*This is the territory of ancient Macedonia and the present boundaries of the state*.



As you can see *ancient Macedonia has covered not much of today's Macedonia FYROM*.

Do you know *whose population was north of the border Ancient Macedonia*?

*Largely, they were Illyrians the ancestors of today's Albanians*.

And *there is evidence for it*, if you want it can be set, but let it do some of the Albanians.


*Iapetoc knows it* and *he set up this map*, right and *limiting the territory without going into Illyrian territory*.

Are you aware that the *Albanians of Macedonia FYROM* territory of today's often called *Ilirida*.

And are you aware that this is not by accident.

What do you have of it *not letting you hear a second opinion than yours on the forum*.

*Only the Communists did it*.

See, you talked to me a lot of bad and I do not mind.

I this write here on the forum *I say people in Macedonia in the eye*.

And *many from them think about these words*.

Think, just north of this border the *Illyrians lived* and there is no way to you prove the opposite when *it can be found in encyclopedias and history books as you like*.

Do you want to be posted? 

The problem is because you not treat any facts, others speak for you to run a propaganda, but when someone writes something that is not you at will, then complain and wish that he be barred from speaking.

----------


## DejaVu

*MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK! MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIA! NEVER WAS GREEK AND NEVER WILL BE!*


*Map of Homeric Greece*


*Homer - Greek epic poet.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

----------


## DejaVu

*HERODOTUS* 

CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that *Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks.* As Borza had written, *"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states"* � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96. 



*Herodotus - Greek historian.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

*Thucydides - Greek historian.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides

*Eugene Borza - Professor emeritus of ancient history.* 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza

----------


## Elias2

Homer lived 300 years before alexander FYI, helenization didn't reach them yet.

FYROM are yugoslavs with no identity. 30% are albanian and the rest are bulgarians and serbians who claim to be macedonians. 

*FACT*

They want to be known as macedonians but comon sence won't let them, too bad ;)

----------


## Garrick

These are the boundaries of ancient Macedonia and the northwest is Illyrian territories (Illyrian are ancestors of Albanians).

----------


## DejaVu

I want all facts about ancient Macedonia start to write now - everything and link source. Not a single word about FYRO MACEDONIA.

*START NOW OR BE FOREVER SPAMMERS. SHOW YOUR SKILLS.*

----------


## iapetoc

DejaVU 

one word *SCHIZOPHRENEIA
**
Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north**First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra*
*from the city of Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north to Phylakes and Balla* (Velventos-Near *Servia* and Katalonia Ballena) Servia in Proto-Makedonian means 
Velventos 
Phylakes means Tower of Guardians
Balla and its settlements
ballonEllenes
ballonista
Ballena
Druanista
Druassa
the nearby Pieri-Thracian city before Makedonian until today have the name Kitros according Greek-Tyrrshenian
Cotys -Cotyr means tough in Tyrrshenian

Later they went north 

west of Phylacaes went from west Olymp the Lokroi tribe (Elimiotans) build Aiani 
Aeolians lokroi (inland tribe from central Greece to Thessaly to Makedonia, cousins of Epirotans)
Lokri And Argeiad Makedonians unite and tooksome Vrygian lands while the Illyrians took their lands above Prespes lakes (a Greco thracian tribe)
*the remains of Vrygian* the *Argeiads* sons of Hercules the *Lokroi* sons of Makednos the *Boettiaeans 
*According to Strabo, Bottiaeans were Cretan immigrants from Iapygia*
make the Makedonian Kingom
*the name Makedonia original belongs to Lokroi West Makedonia and the name Argeads to Central Makedoniaand build Capital Aiges and later Pella 
Lokroi conquer all lands until Prespes,
and Argeiades all the south Greek colonies in sea starting from Pydna (big port)
*Karamos* after the conquer of Pydna from Euboeans Became king of a oligarchy system-alliance
like Mycenae of a Big Kings and a council of kings 
(like Agamemnon Big king and Menelaus, Nestror, Odysseas small kings)
slowly that united kingdom became strong and pushed Thrasians Bithyni Maedi to East and assimilate the Greco-Thrasian Mygdonians
later wars among Makedonians and Dardani and Makedonians and Paioni make new alliances and a complex system
for example Illyrians of Ohrid above Prespes lakes join Makedonian Kingdom (Arideans)council against Dardani (illyrothrasian) as also Paionians against Odrysse-Thracians
But Paionians had also another Royal House although they where Makedonian best alliance and high council members except Almopeans 
Paionian lands where west from Aksos-Aksios river (Vardar) until Mt Haimos 
the big union among Greeks , Illyrians and thracians was done under king Amyntas,
but Makedonians were so strong that even before Amyntas build colonies inside Thracian lands
like odomantikes sintikes bisalti, Phillip manage easily to conquer that lands and unite them and then started the big campaign to unite Greeks
the rest is known

Later when Romans came Paionians were weak and mostly assimilated by Makedonians and became the *MAKEDONIA SECUNDA* and makedonia became *Makedonia PRIMERA*
from that starts the bullshit of today
and continues with the stupidity of Byzantines to name Makedonia today Bulgaria, Thessalinique the Makedonia Primera, and Bulgaria today Fyrom and Serbia and Dardania

when Slavic nations came they pass Donau and make their own counsils and Kingdoms 
the most known the Serbs own the road from Thessaloniki to Donau via rivers, the aqua system,
Serbs brought another air of indepence as also Balkars later, and another lingua that unite with ancient thracian (probably IE similarity) and give another accent than Roman or Greek similar to ancient Thracian and create the South-Slavic languages
which are a mix of ancient North-Thracian and Odrysse-Thracian
Cyrril and Method etc the rest is known, Dusan Simeon Samuel Slavic Kings Families 
orthodoxia, ottomans, Slavonizations and later Islamizations and at west Unia and later Catholicism

the history remains if you see Armani (Aromani) Roman speaking people

*First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra*

*




WHAT IS THAT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

*The *Paeonian language* is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians, whose kingdom once stretched *north* of Macedon into Dardania and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace.

*Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek and Paul Kretschmer, who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family, and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev, who claims affinities with Thracian.*

*Stoboi (nowadays Gradsko)*, name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian _stabis_ "rock", Old Church Slavonic _stoboru_, "pillar", Old English _stapol_, "post", Ancient 
*Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");*


*WHAT IS THIS????????????????*



Centuries later under Diocletian, *Paeonia and Pelagonia* formed a province called *Macedonia Secunda* or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

*Macedonia Secunda* NOT *MAKEDONIA PRIMERA*

*WHO IS THIS???????*

The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8, 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,*"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"*

The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 315, "... *was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...*

he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 452,*"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."*


Paeonian Kings

Agis ? – 359 BCLycceius[19] 356 BC - 340 BCPatraus[20] 340 BC - 315 BCAudoleon[21] son of Patraus 315 - 285 BCAriston[22] 286 - 285 BC son of AudoleonLeon[23] 278 BC - 250 BCDropion[23] son of Leon 250 BC - 230 BCBastareus ? - ? BC

In the _Iliad_, *Asteropaios* (Greek: Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin: Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes. Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon, who was the son of the river god Axios and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the _Iliad_; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1]

*The name Asteropaios exist Still in Greek Makedonian names specially among Armani people*

*Pyraechmes* (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus, a leader of the Paeonians in the Trojan War. He came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus: dressed in Achilles' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

*Langarus* (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians, was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II, previous king of Macedon. He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians and Taulantians, when the Autariatae were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.
[1]Arrian, _Anabasis Alexandri_, i. 5

Also
When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

*Diodorus Siculus


kausia or Beret (Francais)



*Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and the Indo-Greeks in northwestern India. A modern descendant may be the pakul from the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



The name *'Skudra'* was probably Phrygian for the homeland, later called Thrace, which the Phrygians had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC as three : The Saka Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae, who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians; and Yauna Takabara or Ionians with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones, renowned for wearing the sun hat, as Alexander I of Macedon did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians whom Herodotus makes so much of in his narrative
*

Any similarity of Skydra or Skodra ???????

or now do you understand that 
Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

*whatch the names 
*cotys* 
*kotys* *

*watch the Sinopean cities
In the 8th century BCE the city of *Cotyora* was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea coast established by the ancient Greek Aegean city of Miletos. The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman military center and headquarters.

Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
*do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?
* 

*Dropion*(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian[1]king, son of Leon of Paionia.

Dropion or *Driopas* *or Δριοψ* was a paeonian king that took place in *OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK* AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
also his grand fathers Lycceius -*Lykeias* *Aytoleon* and *Aristos*

do you understand that all these names are Greek 
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
Lykeias means wolf -man
Aytoleon means kings of lions
Aristos means perfect
Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek (achaic aga or achas)
Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride 
Pigres means fists
Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
kotys Greek kothour-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation 
Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
(endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more


and watch that 
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess *Sirris* (agricultural people) also *Serres*

*S*e*R*o*P*aia*-K*es ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS
the huns were named Balkar
but the Romans name the *Odrysse* Thracian Vulkans -*Bulkans* Before the invasion of Asparuch
and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) *Vulkania* - *Bulkania*
Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
*the Vulks of Hephaisto*
probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferruginous lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

Although Balkan is a Turkish word

DejaVu 
watch the names
George Gr Γεωργιος Georgios
Serbian George*vic* Greek Georgea*dis* vic=v+i+t+s -> (v+t=d) +i+s ->dis Nominative case 
Bulg Georgie*v* Greek Georgi*ou* v->ou or u possesive case
Female Georgieva Greek Georgiena v->n Female 

Tyrrshenian language (sub-saharan  :Grin: ) 
mother language of many

----------


## Elias2

FYROM = Titostan

----------


## Garrick

> DejaVU 
> 
> one word *SCHIZOPHRENEIA*
> 
> *Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north*
> *from the cityof Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north*
> 
> **
> 
> ...


Iapetoc
*Northwest* of the boundaries of *ancient (Doric) Macedonia* were the *Illyrians* (*Albanians ancestors*).

But I think that is near *the northeast* must have been some *I2a population*.

What do you think whether *I2a* have been* Paeonians* or *other tribes* and *who*?

----------


## how yes no 2

> *watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times*
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Paeonians.png
> 
> *now HOW YES NO*
> *do you understand????
> *


Can Paeonians be same people as Pannoni(ans)? e.g. I2a2 proto-south Slavs 

Because Pannoni did live in most of Illyria in time of Strabo...
read what Strabo says about Illyria....

it seems that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians in their war against Celtic Boii 
and that it was ressetled by Pannonians...




> I shall first describe *Illyria*, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
> The *Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci*, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ *Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes*. The *Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci*, while the *Scordisci were frequently their allies.* 
> The *rest of the country* as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, *is occupied by Pannonii*, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
> ...
> People formerly very powerful are extinct, or were reduced to the lowest condition, as the *Boii and Scordisci* among the Galatæ; the *Autariatæ, Ardiæi, and Dardanii, among the Illyrians*; and the *Triballi among the Thracians.* They first declined in consequence of disputes amongst themselves, but were finally *prostrated by wars with the Macedonians and Romans.*
> .....
> . The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=

area of Illyria for Strabo stretches to Alps and Danube..its sea cosat is from Rhizonic bay (bay of Kotor in northwest Montenegro) to recess of Adriatic sea - this is area of ex-Yugoslavia.... and has nothing to do with Albania...

now he claims that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, it was also depopulated by wars with Macedonians and Romans... and that in those wars people like Boii, Scordisci, Triballi, Dardani has disappeared or almost disappeared..... but Pannoni are there, and living in most of Illyria (or according to his description roughly ex-Yugoslavia)...





> LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
> *THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA* 
> WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
> Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
> so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a


do you read my posts?
there is no need for calculations as there was YDNA research that did separate ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians....

http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al 
E1b1b1a-M78_________*15.6*______*28.8*____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________*27.5*_______*1.8*_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________*14.2*_______*12.6*____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________*11.4*_______*18.0*____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


ethnic Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)




> same as Serbia and almost Bosnia


same basic ingredient - I2a2
which as I indicated on many places does correlate with location and directions of spread of early Slavs 
(e.g. look at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...7&postcount=78 )

early Slavs are according to Jordanes origin from populous race of Veneti that is now scattered among many tribes chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes...





> in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula,* the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.* (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.


http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html




> Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language
> The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
> But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek
> the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
> (Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)


Tyhrsenian /Taurisci/Thracian/Etruscan/Theresh(sea peoples)... can those be about tribal names and peoples of same origin? also Theresh sea peoples are close relatives to Sherdana sea peoples whose name is known to be origin of name of Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt...

now, look at Taurus on map of world known to Hebrews...



Etruscans have moved from Lydia (or its close neighburhood) to Italy...




> The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, *there was great scarcity* through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. *The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games.* In this way they passed *eighteen years*.
> Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the *king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land*. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and *built themselves ships,* in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. *After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence.* Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

this event we can even date as we know that in 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

btw. same division of nation in two parts with one part moving to live far away, we have in much more recent times, story of settlement of Serbs on Balkan, as recorded in work of Byzantine emperor... 

Etruscans also called themselves Raseni




> In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs





> Crete spain italy the bull is *Toro* or *tavro* or *tauro*
> Athens is *BOL*OS Thessaly Makedonia is *BOL*inthros
> Bulgarian Fyrom is *BOL*
> Serbian Croatian HUngarian is *BIK*
> but the calf is 
> Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian* Vodali* *VIDALI* (itali Vitalli)
> Aromanian-armani, albanian is *Damali* *Demi*
> Athens Central-West Makedonia *Moschos* *Mouskar* 
> Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine *Telec*


this can be related to tribal name of Taurisci...

by checking vocabulary of modern european people amongst the words for bull we find:
portugese - boi (as in Boii)
danish - tyr (as in Tyrshenians)
finish - roska (as in russians)



this bull identification may have to do with people from that stock e.g. Sherdana carrying horns on their helmets.... same custom may be origin of name for calling some people "ant people" or Eneti/Veneti...

in that sense word "bik" may be related to Viking 
which indeed shows that language spoken by south Slavs origins from more northern areas, that is from areas of Viking influence (I don't say they were Vikings, but that horns issue may be origin of word "bik")...




> and watch that 
> Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES
> 
> SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
> the huns were named Balkar


yes, this correlates with some ideas that I had about origin of Serb tribal name...

Sebar - was in medieval period in Serbia word used for caste of agricultural people...
Srp/serp - is slavic word meaning "sickle"...sickle was primary tool and symbol of agricultural people..... even 4 'S' on Serbian coat of arms are often called "sickles"..... 

btw. medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...




> After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs. 
> 
> *Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie.* From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by 
> the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. *Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians*. *For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and 
> made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.* Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina, 
> and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod. 
> Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic


http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

and again spread along Danube is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...




> [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they w*ho vex the scattered Scythians* and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who *dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves*27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.


Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians are likely proto-Serbs as Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

In fact, I do wonder about word Seres in Greek history records.... as Serians of north west China who produce silk are also called Seres... Seres live in arc from India to China... and this is where we find Pasthun Sarbans today and some haplogroup I that separates them from surrounding tribes that do not have haplogroup I.... Serians of Red sea are about Sabeans/Sheba known for their legendary queen of Sheba who was also called *Makeda* in south part of her country... *hence name Macedonians for some Serian/proto-Serb related people living south from core od Serians*...

in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...





> Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the *Seres*: as also of them that *dwel upon the mount Athos*: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

*Seres dwell upon mount Athos*....





> do you understand that all these names are Greek 
> Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper


early Slavs were oak worshipers...
Druid is not Greek word...druid is word that has PIE origin and literally means persons able to "see in tree"
in slavic, corresponding words are: drvo (tree) + vid (vision)
this is related to old Slavic religion where 




> A fairly *typical cosmological concept among speakers of Indo-European languages, that of the World Tree, is also present in Slavic mythology*. It is either an *oak tree*, or some sort of *pine tree*. The mythological symbol of the World Tree was a very strong one, and survived throughout the Slavic folklore for many centuries after Christianisation. *Three levels of the universe were located on the tree*. Its *crown* represented the sky, the *realm of heavenly deities* and celestial bodies, whilst the *trunk was the realm of mortals*. They were sometimes combined together in opposition to the roots of the tree, which represented the underworld, the realm of the dead.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology




> According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes *three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav*, Yav being the *material world*, Nav the *immaterial*, and Prav being the *laws that govern them*. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
> Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the *World Tree*. Slavs imagined that *all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree*, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion

----------


## how yes no 2

> and watch that 
> Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess *Sirris* (agricultural people) also *Serres*
> 
> *S*e*R*o*P*aia*-K*es ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS


who is goddess Sirris?
all I could find is



> The Mesopotamian goddess Siris was the patron of beer who is conceived of as a demon, which is not necessarily evil.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siris_(goddess)

and lot of links related to Isis...

is Siris same goddess as Isis?
that would make sense

this is representation of Isis


and this is Sherdana sea peoples, the one whose name is known to be origin of name Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt....



now horns and circle between horns that Sherdana have on helmets can be same symbol as the one that Isis is wearing...

btw.



> Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis




> Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
> ...
> Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be *Osiris in full*, rather than just his Ka (life force).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis




> Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of *Osiris and Isis*, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

look at symbols depicted in this representation of Serapis


this motive of crescent/halfmoon and star is repeated is early coat of arms in Croats, Bulgarians, Illyrians, kingdom of Yugoslavia...

 


moon itself is symbol of Isis

----------


## how yes no 2

now, back to link between Serapis and Taurisci/Theresh/Etruscan/Thracians....

*Serapis* is invented god... he is merge of Osiris and Apis
Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis)

God Apis is about bull worship, which is link to Taurisci...



> In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)




> From the earliest times, the *bull was lunar* in Mesopotamia (its *horns representing the crescent moon*).[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)




> The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as *Seri* and *Hurri* (*Day* and *Night*)—the *bulls who carried the weather god* Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)




> The Bull was a central theme in the Minoan civilization, with bull heads and bull horns used as symbols in the Knossos palace. Minoan frescos and ceramics depict the bull-leaping ritual in which participants of both sexes vaulted over bulls by grasping their horns. See also "Minotaur and The *Bull of Crete*" (below) for a later incarnation to the Minoan Bull.
> ...
> For the Greeks, the bull was strongly linked to the Bull of Crete: Theseus of Athens had to capture the ancient sacred bull of Marathon (the "Marathonian bull") before he faced the Bull-man, the Minotaur (Greek for "Bull of Minos"), whom the Greeks imagined as a man with the head of a bull at the center of the labyrinth.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

Rethymnon on Crete has 22.7% of haplogroup I which is well above Greece standards (comparable to Agrinion and Lemna and bellow only of the level in *Serrai / Serres*  (36%))

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

----------


## how yes no 2

now, I find very peculiar high haplogroup I in Agrinion (23.8%)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

so I wondered who are these people




> According to mythology, it was built by king Agrios, son of Portheus[2] and a great grandson of Aetolos. It was destroyed by Cassander in 314 BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion

according to years, Cassander is Alexander the Great?
anyway, origin is from Aetolus




> Aetolus (Greek: Αἰτωλός) was, in Greek mythology, a son of *Endymion*, grandson of Deucalion, and the nymph Neïs, or Iphianassa.[1][2] According to Pausanias, his mother was called Asterodia, Chromia, or Hyperippe.[3] He was married to Pronoe, by whom he had two sons, Pleuron and Calydon. His brothers were *Paeon*, Epeius, and others.[4][5][6] His father compelled him and his two brothers Paeon and Epeius to decide by a contest at Olympia as to which of them was to succeed him in his kingdom of Elis. Epeius gained the victory, and occupied the throne after his father, and on his demise he was succeeded by Aetolus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus_(son_of_Endymion)




> Paeon (Ancient Greek: Παίων, gen.: Παίονος) in Greek mythology was a son of Endymion, king of Elis, and brother of Epeius, Aetolus, and Eurycyda; from whom the district of Paeonia, on the Axius river in Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_(son_of_Endymion)

so, these people are related to Paeonians (and perhaps also to Pannonians?)





> In Greek mythology, Selene (Greek Σελήνη [selɛ́ːnɛː] 'moon'; Doric Σελάνα; Aeolic Σελάννα) was an archaic lunar deity and the daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia.[1] In Roman mythology, the *moon goddess* is called Luna, Latin for "moon".
> ...
> Apollonius of Rhodes (4.57ff) refers to Selene, "daughter of Titan", who *"madly" loved a mortal*, the handsome hunter or shepherd—or, in the version Pausanias knew, a king— of Elis, named *Endymion*, from Asia Minor. In other Greek references to the myth, he was so handsome that Selene asked Zeus to grant him eternal sleep so that he would stay forever young and thus would never leave her: her asking permission of Zeus reveals itself as an Olympian transformation of an older myth: Cicero (Tusculanae Disputationes) recognized that the moon goddess had acted autonomously. Alternatively, Endymion made the decision to live forever in sleep. Every night, Selene slipped down behind Mount Latmus near Miletus to visit him.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene

hm, moon goddess pops up again....

but I am not convinced that Agrinion haplogroup I is related to Aetolos... 




> The peoples known as the *Curetes* and the Leleges *originally inhabited the country, but at an early period Greeks from Elis, led by the mythical eponym Aetolus, set up colonies.* Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentions that Curetes was the old name of the Aetolians and Leleges the old name of the Locrians.[1] The Aetolians took part in the Trojan War, under their king Thoas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolia




> Homer, in the Iliad, mentions the Curetes (Ancient Greek: Κουρῆτες) as a legendary people who took part in the quarrel over the Calydonian Boar.[1] *Strabo* mentioned that the Curetes were assigned multiple identities and places of origin (i.e. either Acarnanians, Aetolians, from Crete, or from Euboea). However, he *clarified the identity of the Curetes and regarded them solely as Aetolians.*[2] Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentioned the Curetes as the old name of the Aetolians.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curetes_(tribe)




> The *Korybantes* (Ancient Greek: Κορύβαντες) were the crested dancers who worshipped the Phrygian goddess *Cybele* with drumming and dancing. They are also called the Kurbantes in Phrygia, and Corybants in an older English transcription. The *Kuretes* were the nine dancers who venerate *Rhea, the Cretan counterpart of Cybele, Mother of the Gods*. A fragment from Strabo, book vii,[1] gives a sense of the roughly analogous character of these male confraternities, and the confusion rampant among those not initiated:
> Many assert that the gods worshipped in Samothrace as well as the Kurbantes and the Korybantes and in like manner the Kouretes and the Idaean Daktyls are the *same as the Kabeiroi*, but as to the Kabeiroi they are unable to tell who they are"
> ...
> Kouretes also presided over the infancy of Dionysus, another god who was born as a babe, and of *Zagreus, a Cretan child of Zeus*, or child-doublet of Zeus. The wild ecstasy of their cult can be compared to the female Maenads who followed Dionysus.
> ...
> There were several "tribes" of Korybantes, including the Cabeiri, the Korybantes Euboioi, the Korybantes Samothrakioi. Hoplodamos and his Gigantes were counted among Korybantes, and Titan Anytos was considered a Kourete.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuretes

Kuretes might be proto-Croat related...

----------


## iapetoc

slowly

*Garrick* you are wright Druid is a IE word so it can be international 

but Driopas = Dru + ope Δρυ+οπη οπη = hole 

about I2a 

As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
but many times i come back

The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered 

But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes 
which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova 
they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers, 


yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
North-west the Illyro-Thracians
North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

the Greeks at Ottoman occupation 
said that North of Monaster (Bitola) was foreign land of Arnaut (Muslim Albanians)
the Bardar river around Skopje and north was the Serbia also in areas of Florina (Lerin)
were serbo-slavic
and the lands around Mt Borras (Kayimak Tsalan) south of bardar river until Strymon were the Bugari people 
Bugari cause they were not clear Bulgarians as in Veliko Ternovo, 

also exists the Armani people who are a culture of Roman occupation.
The Armani where pushed by Italians in WW2 to make kingdoms like the Koutsouk Vallach, 
a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach 
and accepts the *V*i*ll*a*ch* Vlach approach 
according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (*V*i*llach*es)
In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire 

*How Yes No*
at the times I speak 
No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably 
1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times, 
2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food

Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe

when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia 
Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
now about 
Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes

to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

for Example 
Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni

the worship of Iapetus 
Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b 
(proto-Tyrrshennian)
the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon 
But arcadians also had a god Pan 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29

I 'm not sure but at the times i speak after 700 BC among pannoni and Paeoni were many tribes especially Tribaldi, so for me the connection at that times is only in Genetical Y-dna if Pannoni are I2a and not Cultural or Ethnical,
as I mentined before the I2a in some areas I dont know if it is Dominal or a sum of transfered populations
*
about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?*

about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian 
Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
*meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian*

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis 
some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language 
the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians 
the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans 
Besides Homers Γραισοι Γ is 3rd as C so Craisoi -> ai=a+e Craesoi ss == tt Craetoi = Cretans
Γραισοι ->Craesoi -> Creek - Greek
that is why today in Greece is another part the Greece (region) and the nation and country is Hellas
by the above I don't claim That Thracians were Greeks but an analysis of Greco-Aryan 

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split 
the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
also Persians went East to India 
and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2 

the west branch Greeks (Thracians) appears before 4000 in cyclades having ships
worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)

Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
(lemnean staele)


Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture 
Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat
Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,
Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)
also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name 
also Dionysos - Christ etc
so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
and Dionysus worship have common origin

about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
also Eleysina mysteries
also Byzantine city symbol 




now about the bull 

I mentioned that cause 
Bolos
Bol 
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL 

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos

Although the possibility of Telec is similar to sacrifice makes the word inner Fixed (by the speakers)
example bull fight in spain
tayrokathapsia in crete etc
A ceremony that follows the killing of the bull
in Greek is teleti and the meat telesforo
a simmilar thracian-phrygian word probably name the meat of the bull teles 
you can realize that by reading Paul to Corinthians about sacrificed meat 
inner fixed is if telec comes from another word of the lingua
and is different from same speaking people
imported is if the word is from another lingua

----------


## iapetoc

Dienekes said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.

I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.


Now Understanding that The kurgan Hypothsis proves to be a myth,
The R1a did not brought IE language to Greece
Although the last possibiliy according Kurgan Hypothesis is that Greeks took Language from Hettits

----------


## how yes no 2

> slowly
> As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
> but many times i come back
> 
> The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes
> 
> I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered 
> 
> But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes 
> ...


According to Russian primary chronicle that I have quoted in previous post, Slavs did live along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary (Romania is not mentioned) and also were Noricans...
Noricans would be Veneti related people, probably later known as Vindelici and maybe some other tribes...
are there any clues for possible kinship between Thracians and Pannoni?




> yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
> North-west the Illyro-Thracians
> North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
> now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum


much of I2a2 did come with Slavs
but it could have been there as well...
thing that R1a is equally spread in Albanians from Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians and Serbs, and much less in Montenegro...is clear indicator that no R1a came with Slavs.... higher R1a in Greek Macedonia than in neighbouring Slavic lands is indicator that R1a is due to ancient Macedonioans
besides hotspot of R1a in south Balkan has clear shape of ancient Macedonia 






> cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
> meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
> or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date


I think that all early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 and there were Slav tribes settling in Macedonia and Greece prior to expansion ofSerbs...






> a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach 
> and accepts the *V*i*ll*a*ch* Vlach approach 
> according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
> like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
> When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
> Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (*V*i*llach*es)
> In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire


Vlachs on Balkan origin from different people... they are not same people ethnically, just their language is the same.... their origin is from settled Roman people (which are often romanized people from other parts of Roman empire) and local romanized people...Vlachs in Greece and Vlachs in Romania do not have common origin....





> *How Yes No*
> at the times I speak 
> No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably 
> 1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times, 
> 2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food


it does sound alike...




> Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe


Tribali are Thracians, right?





> when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe
> 
> Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
> Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia 
> Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
> now about 
> Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,


through...Greek Illyria is Albania
Roman province of Illyria does not have much to do with Albania or Illyrians...
somehow Romans made confusion (probably deliberatelly) by calling everything the wrong name... (e.g. their Macedonia was centered north of real one, their Illyria was noth of real one, their Rhaetia included Vindelici...)...perhaps that was special tactics to assimilate people more easily....





> Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes
> to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language
> 
> for Example 
> Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
> Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni


culture and haplogroup are not necesserily a match... as split in haplogroups happened much much earlier than split of PIE culture... 

t[QUOTE]


> he worship of Iapetus 
> Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
> meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b 
> (proto-Tyrrshennian)
> the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,


you tend to see J2b everywhere, but in exactly the region of Japoodes is in Maciamo's map big hole of J2
so if there is genetic connection between two, it may mean that Arcadians might not have been J2b but something else...




> the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon 
> But arcadians also had a god Pan 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29


maybe Arcadians were I2a2? :)




> *
> about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?*


oops, sorry....I was talking of population of FYRM, so I said ethnic Albanians and ethnic Macedonians, I used ethnic to emphasize that the samples being divided by origin... I did not mean to infer that Greek Macedonians are not ethnic Macedonians...




> about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian 
> Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
> *meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian*


I do not understand this...




> the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis 
> some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
> After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language 
> the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south


I think indoeuropean might have came to existance around Black sea (maybe also in Black sea area before disaster you mention)...most of Iranians and Indians got PIE from R1a invaders (e.g. Scythians...) who settled there in big numbers...




> The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
> the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians 
> the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans


I do not think Greeks were Thracians...
that makes no sense as ancient Greek sources never mention such a possibility...
besides language of Thrachians is known to be satem variant of IE, while Greek is centum.... Greeks and Thracians are completely unrelated... only reason you relate them is that big chunk of what is now north Greece was part of Thracian lands... of course there were Greek colonies on sea coast, but that is not Thrace




> the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split 
> the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
> also Persians went East to India 
> and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)


actually, I think J2 were historical Aryans (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
haplogroup I branched of from IJ in nearby Persia





> the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2


that makes sense to me...
but their settlements were centered differently than now... there is bulk of evidence that R1b settled west Europe from Asia (via Caucasus and Asia minor) much after ice age.... R1a might have been trapped in Balkan refuge...
as according to Klyosov it is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia than in all other areas of the world together.... 




> worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)


Phoenicans and Etruscans are related?
are you sure? can you check that claim?




> Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
> while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
> that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war
> 
> that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
> (lemnean staele)


who are exactly Sappeans Thracians?




> Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture 
> Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat
> 
> Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
> Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,
> 
> Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)
> 
> also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
> ...


spread of same religions and symbols tells us about how cultures were related... which may indicate common origin but not necessarily does...





> meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
> the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
> and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos


yes, but that is clear...
word "bik" came with Slavic settlement

what I responded with is attempt to see who were Taurisci (as Taurus = bull) and why.... to me it is logical that people who have horns on their helments are by their neighbours callled bulls or if the horns are more like insect antenas
than ants... in that sense word "bik" may be related to horn helmets of Vikings...

I believe that mythology stories very often reflect origin of people...

So, I find it curious that in Asia minor there was a myth of two bulls (which I translate with Taurisci people) called Seri and Hurri (day and night) who carried weather God....
we know that both Hurrians and Serians are mentioned as historic nations... and I do map Serians mentioned by Seneca to proto-Serbs and I know that some Croat people think that Hurrians were proto-Croats....
regarding wheather God... Greek Gods of winds Anemnoi are in latin language Venetoi... which is in fact tribal name of Veneti...
according to Jordanes early Slavs are part of populous race of Veneti...

among Anemnoi we have west wind Zephyros, and his son Carpus, which I did map to Serbs and Croats.... Zephyros is born in caves of Thrace...

btw. regarding possible link between Tracians and proto-Slavs
I do emphasize populous race.... Jordanes says early Slavs come from populous race of Veneti...
and somewhat before for ancient Greeks most populous race in area were Thracians...
extremely populous races do npot disappear without trace...they may change tribal names though...
Thracians spoke satem variant of IE, so you can't look for their offspring in Greeks, Italians, west Europe... only related languages are Slavic and Baltic languages and maybe even Albanian...but from most populous race, many people must origin...so I opt for Slavs.. and I do relate early Slavs with I2a2, same as I relate Veneti with it....
besides medieval Russian primary chronicle tells us that Slavs lived in Bulgaria and Hungary and in Noricum... but were pushed north with expand of Vlachs (that is Romans)

----------


## iapetoc

How Yes No


your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri 

if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were *Isotones* and almost could be *dialects*

Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

----------


## how yes no 2

> How Yes No
> 
> 
> your approach to Thracian Language is not clear
> 
> Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri 
> 
> if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were *Isotones* and almost could be *dialects*
> 
> ...


what's the relation between Phrygians and Thracians?
Phrygians origin from Bryges, not from Thracians...
Bryges lived in central Albania and west most FYR Macedonia and not in thrace 



I thnk Bryges might have been R1b.... btw.I also think Frisians and name places such as Brugge might be reflections of same tribal name... and I think that they did also settle Paphlagonia that was emptied earlier when Pahplagonia Eneti were forced to move out... Eneti moved first to Thrace .... and a branch of them ended on Adriatic coast... and since Slavs are race of Veneti and do not have much R1b, I think that R1b spread to Paphlagonia with Bryges and perhaps also with later Celtic invasions...





if language of Bryges was Greek alike, it just means that central Albania and westmost FYR Macedonia did speak Greek at time, which is not difficult to imagine...

and btw. link that you gave does not say that Phrygian was dialect of Greek, but that Plato did recognize some words... which is probably about PIE words plus some additional shared vocabulary due to living in proximity... text also indicates that it is considered to be closely related to Greek...now when you say considered, that's not a proof, but a theory... my guess is that it was Celtic language that was heavily influenced by Greek due to living in proximity of Greece during very long period...

----------


## iapetoc

1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats

Seri and Huri 
are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
maistros comes from NW dinaric 
Ourios means Behind the direction 
Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

so huri and seri are not nations

about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
as also
THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian

that approach has to do with I and J
I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan 
Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language

I gave you similarity of Crete and Latium

I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
Phrygians, and many other Tribes Before New Alphabet 
In Crete we have a system that is even Before Phoenician
later discoveries in tooth of Hippopotamus shows the most Ancient calendar,
we know that Crete was after Cyclades which is one the most Ancient in the world 4000 BC
we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar 
Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking 
as also Athenes as also north Thessaly

The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC 
in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
language from 1 origin to different nations
besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian

the Thracians of the balcans were the last tribal system
even odrysse create a system more complex as a state



watch 
In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Greco-Aryan is also known as "*Late PIE*", or "*Late Indo-European*" (LIE) suggesting that Greco-Aryan forms a dialect group which corresponds to the latest stage of linguistic unity in the Indo-European homeland in the early part of the 3rd millennium BC. By 2500 BC, Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had separated, moving westward and eastward from the Pontic Steppe, respectively.[5]


now watch that 
More accurate archaeology has revealed the broad outlines of a farming and seafaring culture that had immigrated from Asia Minor _ca_ 5000 BCE. Early Cycladic culture evolved in three phases, between _ca_ 3300 - 2000 BCE, when it was increasingly swamped in the rising influence of Minoan Crete. The culture of mainland Greece contemporary with Cycladic culture is termed Helladic.

meaning that 5-10-15 % or R Ydna could not change the speech of minoan etc 
and if that happened a big % would have stay 

Trojan Linear A scripts 
*Linear A* is one of two scripts used in ancient Crete 
Vladimir I. Georgiev published his _Le déchiffrement des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A_ in 1957 stating that Linear A contains Greek linguistic elements.[3] In 1963, he published an article, "Les deux langues des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A", suggesting that the language of the Hagia Triada tablets was Greek, but that the rest of the Linear A corpus was in Hittite-Luwian

Of these peoples, according to Staphylus, the Dorians occupy the part toward the east, the Cydonians the western part, the Eteo-Cretans the southern; and to these last belongs the town Prasus, where is the temple of the Dictaean Zeus; whereas the other peoples, since they were more powerful, dwelt in the plains. Now it is reasonable to suppose that the Eteo-Cretans and the Cydonians were autochthonous, and that the others were foreigners ..


Cydonians Sidonians????????


the more you know crete the more you feel Tyrrshenian and Luwan
although that is the Pre or Proto-Greek Branch of Big Family of languages



Copper pins dating to 4000 BC found in Egypt

also boats were known before 5000 BC

----------


## how yes no 2

> 1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats
> Seri and Huri 
> are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
> Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
> maistros comes from NW dinaric 
> Ourios means Behind the direction 
> Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ
> 
> so huri and seri are not nations


no, you didnot understand...
Seri and Hurri (day and night) are bulls that carry weather god...
they are not winds...

look at section about Eastern Anatolia... btw. Taurus area is southeast Anatolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

thing is Serb/Croats cluster with Romania, central Ukraine and east/west Hungary...but this cluster than clusters with Asia minor and Albanians (from paper described on http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html)...

that coupled with knowing that early Slavs are of Veneti origin (written by Jordanes) and that Veneti come from Paphlagonia (written by Herodotous) made me think that I should search for proto-Serbs and proto-Croats in Asia minor...

already in post before Seri/Hurri mapping to Serbs and Croats, I had indication of proto-Serbs having some undetermined relation with Taurus/Thrace /Teresh/Etruscan.. 

the reason Seri and Hurri reminded me on serbs and croats is not just links of proto-Serbs/proto-Croats to Serians/Hurrians tribal names (which is something I have already for months as I see proto-Serbs in Serians mentioned by Seneca, and I know Croats who deeply believe in Hurrians being proto-Croats), but day and night thing... like yin and yang...
Serbs and Croats are opposites in many ways, but they are one in same time..a bit as they cannot exist without each other...e.g. when I try to look clues for ancient history of Serbs I keep having Croats popping up in pair with proto-Serbs... e.g. white Serbia/white Croatia, matching coats of arms in neighbouring areas of north Ukraine, Sarban and Krevatas in Caucasus, Pasthun Sarban and Croat iranian origin teories tied to area just next to Sarbans...


Venti (Anemoi in Greece) are wind gods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

Venti may be mythological counterpart of tribe of Veneti
Zephyrus (born in caves of Thrace) on west with his son Carpus, and Eu*rus* on east...

and you must admit that wind is related to weather...or probably thought in ancient times to be the one who brings and control the weather....
thus, clear mapping between proto-Serbs/proto-Croats representing carrying weather god with proto-Serbs and proto-Croats being related to Veneti tribes....

in fact Paphlagonia (where Veneti or nation represented in mythology with wind gods or weather gods lived) is just north of (or above it on maps) Taurus (bull)...this may have a meaning that it was thought that Paphlagonia is the key to the climate of Asia minor due to influence of Taurus mountain... and this is symbolically represented mixed with nations living there Veneti/Hurrians/Serians...
do not forget that this is about times much before Greek written history... as Veneti were kicked out from Asia minor soon after Troyan wars...

and keep in mind that Sherdana people did carry helmets with horns (thus looked as bulls do) and that it is known that Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt was named after Sherdana...
and that among sea peoples are also Teresh which may be just corruption of Taurus... and also origin of name of Etruscans (who btw. had own name Rasena identical to Serbs medieval name Rasani and in fact also to tribal name of Russians...with Thracians being likely the same name)

well, look at the island of I2a2 still existing in Kurds in area in close proximity of both Paphlagonia and Taurus



btw. tribal name Kurds... what does it remind you on (knowing that k and s are interchangeable in centum/satem languages)?

I think that haplogroup I separated from IJ in Persia, but than most of it went north towards Caucasus and Asia minor.... part branched imediatelly to east giving Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of north west China... part continued over Caucasus to Scandinavia and I1 developed from it....and part went to Asia minor and I2 developed from it... it is possible that when soon after Trojan war Veneti went to Thrace, Serrian/Hurrian (proto-Serbs and proto-Croats) went to Caucasus, from there to Ukraine, than to white Serbia (Bohemia and east Germany?) and white Croatia (Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) ...
worth noting is that soon after Trojan war there was 18 year old hunger that caused half of Lydians to go away (Etruscans meaning that probably Lydia was back than including Taurus)...
much later I2a2 Lydians collapsed under wave of E-V13 - this would be related to story of shepard Gyges finding dead king of Lydia and stealing his magic ring and becoming king.... which caused I2a2 Cimmerians to furiously attack his state but without success.... Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...Gyges name became name of his people - Gog or Ghegs... 




> about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
> as also
> THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
> as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian


Phrygians origin from Bryges...
Bryges were probably not Thracians...
it is suspected that they came to Balkan from north from Lusatian culture area of influence......
they did cross through Thrace on way from central Albania to Asia minor... a part of tribe stayed in Thrace, but that does not make them same in culture and language and haplogroup as other people living in Thrace...
you cannot make conclusions about Thracians based on Bryges as it is known that they settled there from central Albania, and settled central Albania after comming from north Europe...
now arrival from north Europe means they were probably not J or E dominant people... I suspect it was R1b as R1b has spread towards central Albania and also exist in Asia Minor in place of their last settlement...

Minoan Crete perhaps spoke Tyrsshenian cause there is lot of haplogroup I in Crete...





> that approach has to do with I and J
> I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
> Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan 
> Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language


at that time they probabbly all had IE language...




> I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,


that's not the language, that's alphabet....





> we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar 
> Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking 
> as also Athenes as also north Thessaly


I believe that Philistines origin from Pelast sea peoples, and that they are Pelasgues...




> The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC


so, if in 2000 years someone digs out this forum conversation he can conclude that english was native language of Greece in 21st century?
but if Phoenician was used it also indicates relation with southeast Asia minor population which in fact supports my thesis that Taurus/Taurisci on south east coast (from whom I think Etruscan and Teresh sea peoples origin) are also origin of Thracians....





> in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
> language from 1 origin to different nations
> besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian


iranian is satem language as slavic...
if they were near to persian they spoke satem as is well known anyway...

as for Crete, minotaur myth makes me suspect that they were related to people who lived in Taurus area...

----------


## iapetoc

Although I see you continue splitting
I will still try to Unite

Tesesh was Not a Tribe
it was a cleric-religion cast
find out Tiresias and later Augur
Remember ter-o in greeks means observe.


now find out caduceus symbol

find a poem of orpheus for gree (3 old woman-fates)

orpheus was Pieri thracian
Orpheus was using Lyre as Musical organ as also today Thracians Cretans Pontic Greeks Laz people and Atheneans 


now about Thracians and Vrygians
Makedonians found them and mention them around their later capital meaning central Makedonia

main Vrygian city was 
Edessa edu and Vedu is the water in Vrygian and issa is the wall- the tower
also Larissa means La =stone ris= nose edge, issa = wall today in modern Greek is acropolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece

the Thracians you mention, where the last with Satem cause of the *Skudra*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

by realizing the Skudra and that Paioni were under Troya occupation and that bithyni also went to minor asia 
as also in Homer Greeks speak similar with Troyans and many Thracians 
but could not understand other Thracian, 
as also later with odrysse thracian at Xenophons time translation needed
the fact that Before koine Greeks A colonization was mainly in Areas of Luwan speaking
which were near troyans and allies, and at coastal of Thrace Illyria
and south of Etruscans Magna Grecia, 
and in B colonization elsewhere, and later they make koine language

the Iphigeneia 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia
the lelantin wars for ischia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia


Watch that

The endings _-bria_ ("town, city"), _-disza_, _-diza_, _-dizos_ ("fortress, walled settlement"), _-para_, _-paron_, _-pera_, _-phara_ ("town, village") are from the Thracian language, as are numerous other lexical elements in this list. Strabo translated -bria as polis, but it might not be accurate[16]. Thracian language _-disza_, _-diza_, and _-dizos_ are derived from Proto-Indo-European _*dheigh-_, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization of PIE _*gh-_. Cognates include Ancient Greek _teichos_ ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho) and Avestan _daēza_ ("wall").

*now find Hettit language*
*Troy = wIllassa*
greek cities
Edessa
Tyrinssa
Larissa
Dorissa
Chalkissa
Antissa
SSamos
SSami
SSamothrace
Chandassa (old cretan name for Heracleion)
Lassate today Lasithe

linear B ko-no-sso ->knossos (minoan)
ne-na = float Nassa -Naxa->Naxos (island) Fortification for ships


Later the Greeks turn -issa to ida or itha 
Lassate ->Lasithe
Tyrinssa ->Tyrintha
Dorissa->Dorida

Para or Phara means light tower a tower that holds fire
Paros 
Pharia in Dalmatia
later the par became pur (fire) and the building Purossa 
Purossa ->burssa turkey Gr Prousa
Vrussa outside Athens in gr Alphabet Bryssa
here I live area Bruaza
Pyr+thesis +essa -Pryntessa ->brindesi (italy) (brindis-io)
kallos+Pyr = Calabria 

the Pyrossa became ->Pyroga ->Pyrgoa-Pyrgos
Pyrgos is a tower that holds fire and it is fortificated
instead of Pharos which is not fortified
Gr Pyrgos BG Burgas city name

as you realize i don't know where the Venneti came from
but Linguistic is that thracian and tyrrshenian came by Middle East to balcans
the land movement where more persian and became north balcans Thracian
the south came by sea closer to levantine and became Thyrrenian and later Greek (greek is a synonym of Cretan) 
and the Troyan later became Etruscan
the possibility that Hettit were the west Branch of first language or split by the first language


about paioni and agrinio
you manage to connect
Agriannes with Agrinio
but Agrios means savage scary and sometimes violent
also argos and agros is the field
argos = fiels in plain mainly
and agros = fields that plow
Agrinio means farmers cultivators of land
Agriannes believe also the same

so my thought about thracians and i2a has a point
meaning that north satem Thracians I2a carriers were close to persian thracian 
and south and coastal J2 was more Levant phoenician -tyrrshenian 
hmm 
or it seems that Hettit was the 1rst Thracian branch of IE speaking and split 
to perso thracian north
greco thracian west 
and phoenician south

the fact is that Greeks are more vowel even north Greece than south Slavic or north Thracians
vowel in Greek is phoneen ;)
although much less vowel than others

example
Proto-Indo-European *(d)ḱm̥tóm, which became Avestan _satəm_ (hence the name of the group), Persian _sad_, Sanskrit _śatam_, Latvian _simts_, Lithuanian _šimtas_, Old Church Slavonic _sъto_. Another example is the Slavic prefix _sъ(n)-_ ("with"), which appears in Latin, a centum language, as _co(n)-_; _conjoin_ is cognate with Russian _soyuz_("union").
Greek sun ΣΥΝ modern as sin older as sun the u very short u as in Uranus

----------


## DejaVu

*The Pelasgian Problem

*The Problem of Ancient Minor Languages.

"...The most significant among Hellenes are Athenians and Lacaedemonians. The first come from Ionic tribe, the second - from Doric tribe. And, Ionians are of Pelasgian origin, and Dorians - of Hellenic." (I, 56.) 
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands. Greek authors placed their native land in Fessalia, in Northern and Middle Greece, and on the majority of islands in the Aegean Sea. 

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them. 
But were they Indo-Europeans? 
It is well known that the first wave of Indo-European migrants who came to settle to Crete, the Aegean Islands and to Continental Greece from Asia Minor were Achaeans, the so-called "first wave of Greek migrants". It is they who created the Minoan on Crete and Mycenaean in Peloponnese civilizations. Then Doric tribes invaded Greece, but could easily understand the language of Achaeans, and nowadays Dorians and Achaeans are considered to have been just the two varieties of Greek population, with dialectal peculiarities in their common language. 
But Pelasgian language was not understood by Achaeans. Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.) That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian. 

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete. Herodot three centuries later names just two of their cities. The process of extinction went fast. Naturally, the only place they could survive for some time and avoid assimilation were small islands in the Aegean Sea. And only here we have one (maybe the only) evidence they really had their language. 

 Little inscriptions were found on the island named Lemnos which proves Pelasgians lived there in their isolated community in the 7th and 6th century B.C. Hesiod, Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European. The language is completely unknown, and some researches even believe (following ancient legends) that Lemnos Island's inscriptions are close to Etruscan and Rhaetic language. That is how a theory was supported about the ties of Pelasgians and Etruscans: "If we judge for nowadays Pelasgians, who live north from Tyrsenans..." (I, 58). That is how Herodot shows neighbourhood of Etruscans (Tyrsenans) and Pelasgians. Strabo in the 1st century A.D. follows this theory: "Modern Cere [in Etruria] is said to have been founded by Pelasgians who came from Fessalia." (V, II, 3). Euripid in his "Archelaios" says that Pelasgians were the first people to settle on Lemnos and Imbros Islands, then inhabited Greece, and partly went to Italy led by Tirsenos, the ancestor of Etruscans.

 And though Strabo and Hesiod believe Pelasgians used to be Hellenes, Etruscan language which has nothing in common with Greek proves they were not. But still there are too many contradictory sources of information. Greeks, who were sure that every nation had their Hellenic religion with just different names for gods, always called other peoples' divines Greek names: they called Egyptian Amon "Zeus", they called Celtic goddess Boann "Artemis" and so on, the same for every people. That is why Pelasgian gods, who could have their own names, were called "Zeus", "Apollo", "Hermes" by Greeks. 
Certainly, Pelasgians who lived nearby Greeks, could borrow their gods, myths and beliefs, but that does not prove, for example, that the Temple in Dodona many authors talk about was devoted to Zeus and not to an autochtonic Pelasgian god. Pelasgian might have similar cults, gods for rain, ground, sun and moon. The only description of Pelasgian sculptures, that of Zeus, believed to have been delivered to Larisa from Asia Minor, is described by Pausanius as having three eyes (II, 24) - a feature not common among Greek gods. Pelasgian religion must have been different from Indo-European.

And nevertheless, no one can be sure. In the 70s this century a Bulgarian linguist Georgiyev published his works where he tried to prove that Pelasgian language was of Indo-European origin. According to him, it was a representative of Paleo-Balkan languages, of their Thraco-Illyrian branch. Georgiyev cites Ancient Greek historians, Hesihios's dictionary and composes the so-called "Pelasgian glossary" - words in Greek borrowed from Pelasgian. Here we are glad to offer the full list of that glossary.

aleifo - I smear
asamindos - a bath
astu - a town
atembo - I offend
afnos - wealth
balios - white
bretas - a statue
gaia, ga - a land, a region
deyo - I irrigate
dunamai - I can
eiko - I retreat
elaion - butter
derapne - a dwelling
ide - a forest
lahe - a pit
neos - a temple
pyndax - a bottom of a vase
pyrgos - a tower

Based on his analysis of Pelasgian glossary, Georgiyev also gives a table of phonetic changes from Common Indo-European to Pelasgian:
 
As we can see, most of the changes remind those for Thracian and Phrygian languages, from Balkan language community. Greeks considered Thracians and Phrygians to be barbarians; the same with Pelasgians. But if Thracian words easily prove the language was Indo-European, all inscriptions are translated and the origin is clear, we cannot say such things about Pelasgian.

Too many arguable things. Inscriptions from Lemnos similar to Etruscan; legends about Pelasgian relativeness with Tyrsenans; common opinion that Pelasgians lived in Aegean region before Greeks arrived - that all gives us a chance to suppose: Pelasgian was not Indo-European. Its speakers were - together with Iberians in Spain, Aquitans in Southern France, Rhaetians and Ligurians in Alps, Etruscans in Italy - the representatives of the autochtonic, pre-Indo-European population of Southern Europe, the Mediterranean race which spoke a language we cannot define now. It was not Indo-European or Semitic; maybe just Basques can nowadays tell us what it was like.

But still there are a lot of "maybe". Etruscan is not deciphered yet, Pelasgian written documents were lost in history. A century ago the humanity knew nothing about Hittite or Tocharian languages; new archaeologic, historical and linguistic research can always give us more material about the past of Indo-Europeans. That is why we should not state anything with surety; just analyze, guess and search.

----------


## iapetoc

so Dejavu 
the Cyclades civilization which is 4000 BCalmost
in the middle of Aegean is the pelasgic
which I believe iis also the proto-Thyrrennian and proto-cretan

now could that language also be the thracian far ancient language?
i mean in the tribes we know as thracians,????
and then the thracians turn to Skudra 
thyrrenian by the words you mention above could be centum language 
could the thracian be a centum language
and change with the Skudra


dejavu thank you that was very helpfull

----------


## LeBrok

iapetoc, do you have your results of your haplogroups back?
I wonder if you guessed right? G2a3?

I just got mine few days ago. Freaking unexpected result lol.

----------


## barbarian

nice discussion. thanks for the contributors.

----------


## iapetoc

Le Brok

G2a3b 
want the dys lebrok?
i Have to go again to university labs




how yes no my question for you is that

was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?

I believe yes,

----------


## how yes no 2

> how yes no my question for you is that
> was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?
> I believe yes,


I do not know...
not enough data to claim linguistic connection...
but I suspect there is tribal name connection...
btw. from wikipedia about Tyrrshenian




> "Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis"). The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

for me this 'srdn' in Egyptian inscriptions for Sardis is identical as for Shardana




> The earliest mention of the people called Srdn-w, more usually called Sherden or Shardana, occurs in the Amarna Letters correspondence of Rib-Hadda, of Byblos[2], to Pharaoh Akhenaten, at about 1350 BCE. At this time, they already appear as sea raiders and mercenaries, prepared to offer their services to local employers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardana

----------


## iapetoc

cuase as I already saw you before similarity of Thracians with Hettites and Greeks,
although it could be IE there is a posibility to be dialects each of other,

another evidence is the Phoenician Alphabet that use the Greeks,

the Troyans that reach Dardania as also the Skodra of Persians (Skudra)
i don't know I cant specify
either northern Balkans learn Thyrrenian by Troyans and were satem
either they became satem by persians 
either both speak dialects but south - Greeks -Thyrrenian became centum cause of sea immigration, and inland by foot immigrations kept the persian satem thracians
in 70 translation of old testament (the 1rst ever) name that Iauan people settled in Θαρσεις Tharseis, Tarshish but also Theiras Θειρας Tiras was their ungle

watch very far ancient Greek cities Tyris - tiris tyras-tiras in ukraine also a city in levant Tiros and the island of Thera 

that is why I connect ancient Thracian with Thyrrenian 

*Psalm 72:10
*May the kings of(A) Tarshish and of(B) the coastlands
render him(C) tribute;

*Ezekiel 38:13*
Sheba and(B) Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all(C) its leaders[a] 
*Ezekiel 27:12*


"Tarshish did(B) business with you because

*Psalm 48:7*

You destroyed them like ships of Tarshish 
shattered by an east wind.

----------


## Regulus

Garrick's quote:
"But now I want something else to say.

Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

*Scientist Klyosov* *found about R1a*:

*"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."*

Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as *the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense*. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

*Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally* are not R1a but *I people*.

Once the *Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language*, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the *ancient I language*.

When *I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known*.

It is clear that the *I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans*, but *we still does not know exactly who they were*. It is assumed for example that *I bearers were Vincians people*. However, only *the research of DNA to be precisely determined*. Certainly a *few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write*.

...
Today *Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians*, it is likely to issue a *Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia*.

Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians. 

But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived *Paeones*.

There is a likelihood that the *Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans*, if it proves today *Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond*, also from *I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians*.

...
*And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic.* "

This is very clearly thought out and written well. I like the idea of exploring options like this. The possibility of "I" peoples being the base group that later had a R1a Slav admixture makes much sense.
I will read it again later and post more thoughts on it then.

----------


## DejaVu

*HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?*

*DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?*

*MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?*



*Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)*

*Macedonia (FYROM)*
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0% 
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1% 

*Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

*62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)*

*Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.*


*GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!*

*FACT!*

----------


## Garrick

> *HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?*
> 
> *DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?*
> 
> *MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?*
> 
> 
> 
> *Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)*
> ...


DejaVu
If you noticed I do not want to participate on this subject.

I'll just add, Regulus is right.

Precisely what distinguishes Slavo Macedonians from the Greeks and Albanians, is the presence I and the stronger component of R1a. (When you add R1a, according to Pericic et al you get I + R1a 49.3%).

And take into account number of Albanian minority in Macedonia FYROM (25% population), and that the E haplogroup is dominant among the Albanians. Also take into account that haplogroup J is the most frequent among the Greeks.

Only a few analytical think. 

Without I haplogroup and a stronger presence of R1a, ask is whether Slavo Macedonians had any specificity.

And that's what several participants here trying to tell you, just a facts. 

And it really has nothing to do with politics.

----------


## iapetoc

Dejavu

tell me me,
ancient thracian language
is near Thyrrenean-tyrrshenian
is near Hettit or Persian
is near to slavic?

watch is satem language

and about R1a Regulus watch that letter R is vowel in ancient Greek 
and letter L was also a vowel in thessaly and makedonia but not in Greek thracian
means that r was also hr or rr or wr 

but Greek Makedonians do not use the j as slavic do

Dienekes said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.
I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.

now if that R1a was ancient since you know gennetic, could that be German branch?
just wondering

and who denys that R1a enter in medieval times, meaning that a big % of today named slavic makedonians lived in area of Greek Makedonia,
besides remember that Dusan's capitol Skopje is almost next Greek makedonia, 
and Dusan ruled enough years to some small devastations 
also in ottoman empire etc

the problem is that church gave name to nations
that kings claim what ever, who could stop them
remember a latin king of Makedonia after Boniface de Monferat who bought the title of king by an expeled king just to go to crusades as a noble !!!!!!!!!!!!!

but lingua as it is writen by ancient and as it is in use by modern is different


Besides DejaVu if you want more politic I have many
but I don't want more,

----------


## DejaVu

*Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go.* (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time)

*Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence.* (Continue of breaking forum rules: (4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations).


*Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.*
(No DNA test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)


*Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.*

----------


## iapetoc

> *Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time).*
> 
> *Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence.*
> 
> *Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.*
> *(No test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)*
> 
> 
> *Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.*



phhhh

Wrong again
I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area

I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
besides all who read make their thoughts

so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD

----------


## DejaVu

> phhhh
> 
> Wrong again
> I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area
> 
> I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
> besides all who read make their thoughts
> 
> so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD


*Only recognize Sub-Sahara Greece with Sub-Saharan Greeks.*

----------


## iapetoc

i already did that,

and i ask you is it bad?

if I change nationality and become a slavic will I be European?

----------


## Elias2

F - fabricated
Y - Yugoslav
R - Republic
O - of
M - Malakas

----------


## how yes no 2

in my opinion, ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a and south Slavs (people of Veneti race according to Jordanes) were dominantly I2a2...

but there was significant I2a2 in Balkan aslo prior to south Slavs arrival...
we can see that by spread in Asia minor, by significant spread in areas of Greece that were not settled by Slavs, by some spread along italian Adriatic coast while Slavs never settled there and Illyrians did....

so, if arrival of south Slavs was real and numerous, they were perhaps I2a2 dominant people who settled among dominantly I2a2 people... perhaps even part of same people arriving from one of tribal settlement to another, with differing tribal names....

marriage of R1a and I2a2 accross east Europe is hard to explain...

----------


## iapetoc

How yes no,

you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
in which tribe?
the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?

now if R1a was dominant, t*hen Spartan sould be also R1a*, *west Crete* should be also Dominant *R1a* even in minor asia where *Dorians* went should be also *R1a*
and as you heard in History *Sicily in the East* should have dominant *R1a*
if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see

----------


## how yes no 2

> How yes no,
> you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
> in which tribe?
> the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?
> now if R1a was dominant, t*hen Spartan sould be also R1a*, *west Crete* should be also Dominant *R1a* even in minor asia where *Dorians* went should be also *R1a*
> and as you heard in History *Sicily in the East* should have dominant *R1a*
> if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
> I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
> so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see


there is around 10% of R1a in Ragusa in southeast Sicily and also in Santa Ninfa in west Sicily...the rest of Sicily has around 5%...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

there is also hotspot of R1a in west central Crete and in highlands of east most Crete...(see Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in table bellow)



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html





> Post-migrational distribution of the Dorians
> Though *most of the Doric invaders settled in the Peloponnese*, they also settled on Rhodes and Sicily, in what is now southern Italy. In Asia Minor existed the Dorian Hexapolis (the six great Dorian cities): Halikarnassos (Halicarnassus) and Knidos (Cnidus) in Asia Minor, Kos, and Lindos, Kameiros, and Ialyssos on the island of Rhodes. These six cities would later become rivals with the Ionian cities of Asia Minor. The Dorians also *invaded Crete*. These origin traditions remained strong into classical times: Thucydides saw the Peloponnesian War in part as "Ionians fighting against Dorians" and reported the tradition that the Syracusans in Sicily were of Dorian descent.[38] Other such "Dorian" colonies, originally from Corinth, Megara, and the Dorian islands, dotted the southern coasts of Sicily from Syracuse to Selinus. (EB 1911).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

invaded Crete does not mean they left significant offspring...
key settlement is Peloponnese and that is where we should search for Dorians...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek

two sampled places in area of Peloponnese:
Patrai on north - not Dorian area, Achaean area of influence
Lerna/Franchthi - east part - Dorian area of influence..

thus, L/F should have much more Dorian element than Patras

Patrai - 11.1% R1b, *5,6% R1a*, *44% DE*, 11,1% I, *16,7% J2*, 0% G2
L/F - *15.8% R1b*, 1,8% R1a, 35%DE, *21,2% I*, 14,2% (+1.8%) J2, *5.3% G2*

now 14,2% J2 in L/F is way too small if Dorians were J2... and it is even less than in non-Dorian Patrai... thus, *Dorians were for sure not J2 dominant people* or R1a dominant people....they could have been haplogroup I (not known how much of it is I2a2 and how much other branches)

there is also hotspot of haplogroup I in west central part of Crete (Rethymnon)...


btw. on map of Greek dialects (note that Macedonian is not any of them) R1a hotspot matching ancient Macedonian's state would be mostly in Ionic area of Chalcidice...


so, I guess Dorians were haplogroup I, and in Macedonia they had significant R1a admixture from some assimilated tribes... roughly even spread of R1a across the rest of Greece says that this R1a people could have been Pelasgues... note that according to Klyosov R1a is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia, and Bosnia than in the rest of the world taken together... which would fit Pelasgues who are ancient inhabitants of Balkan peninsula and pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece...


btw. note also R1a hotspot in Italy that matches Etruscan imprint, and hole in R1a of lower Lydia that indicates area from which they departed meaning that later waves in Asia minor were non R1a people.... same thing is visible in Paphlagonia and can be related to departure of Paphlagonia Eneti (future Veneti and later also Slavs)...

----------


## iapetoc

search that areas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_%28Greece%29
the starting of dorean people

and these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_people

They are the ghost of ancient Dorians
a tribe that speak Dorian better than any other ancient Dorian (kidding)

----------


## how yes no 2

> two sampled places in area of Peloponnese:
> Patrai on north - not Dorian area, Achaean area of influence
> Lerna/Franchthi - east part - Dorian area of influence..
> 
> thus, L/F should have much more Dorian element than Patras
> 
> Patrai - 11.1% R1b, *5,6% R1a*, *44% DE*, 11,1% I, *16,7% J2*, 0% G2
> L/F - *15.8% R1b*, 1,8% R1a, 35%DE, *21,2% I*, 14,2% (+1.8%) J2, *5.3% G2*
> 
> ...


haplogroup I could also be due to Slavic people who did massivelly settle Peloponnese....

could Dorians have been R1b dominant?
there is R1b on Crete as well

----------


## how yes no 2

> *Hellen* (Greek: Ἕλλην; Katharevousa: ([ˈelːin] ( listen)) was the mythological patriarch of the Hellenes (Greek: Ἕλληνες), the son of Deucalion (or sometimes Zeus) and Pyrrha, brother of Amphictyon and father of Aeolus, Xuthus, and Dorus. His name is also another name for Greek, meaning a person of Greek descent or pertaining to Greek culture, and the source of the adjective "Hellenic".
> Each of his sons founded a primary tribe of Greece: *Aeolus* the Aeolians,* Dorus* the Dorians and Xuthus the *Achaeans* (from Xuthus's son Achaeus) and the *Ionians* (from Xuthus's probably illegitimate son Ionas). According to Hesiod's Catalogue of Women (Greek: Ἠοῖαι), *Hellen's sisters, Pandora and Thyia*, were impregnated by Zeus in which the former gave birth to *Graecus* of the Graecians and the latter gave birth to *Makednos* of the Makedónes and Magnes of the Magnetes.
> 
> They conquered the Greek area of Phthia and subsequently spread their rule to other Greek cities. The people of those areas came to be called Hellenes, after the name of their ancestor. The ethnonym Hellenes dates back to the time of Homer. In the Iliad, "Hellas" (Greek: Ἑλλάς) and "Hellenes" were names of the tribe (also called "Myrmidones") settled in Phthia, led by Achilles.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen

Macedons are not Dorians according to this myth.... in fact they are related to Greeks by female line....

My interpretation of myths is that new nation is born when one tribe subjugate other, subjugated tribe is represented in myths with female person, and the ruller tribe as male person....normally in those times man of winner side would take over woman of losing side...hence the relation to male line and female line...

I do not know how to interpret Zeus as father in this case... but dominant YDNA haplogroup in ancient Macedonians being likely R1a might be about non-Greek R1a tribe conquering Greek tribe represented by Thyia... culture and language might have been from mother side...


Interestingly, term Hellen in time of Illiad applied only to Myrmidones...or ant people...



> The Myrmidons (or Myrmidones; Greek: Μυρμιδόνες) are people of ancient Greek mythology. They are *very brave and skilled warriors* as described in Homer's Iliad, and are commanded by *Achilles*.[1] Their eponymous ancestor was Myrmidon, a king of Thessalian Phthia who was a son of Zeus and "wide-ruling" Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthia. She was *seduced by Zeus in the form of an ant.* An etiological myth of their origins, simply expanding upon their supposed etymology — the name in Classical Greek was interpreted as *"ant-people"*, from μυρμηδών (murmedon) "ant's nest"[2] and that from μύρμηξ (murmex) "ant"[3] — was first mentioned by Ovid, in Metamorphoses: in Ovid's telling, King Aeacus of Aegina, father of Peleus, pleaded with Zeus to populate his country after a terrible plague. Zeus said his people would number as the ants on his sacred oak, and from the ants sprang the people of Aegina, the Myrmidons.
> According to Homer's Iliad, the Myrmidons were the f*iercest warriors in all of Greece*. As said in Iliad, "Go home, then, with your ships and comrades to lord it over the Myrmidons".
> 
> [edit]Later use of the term
> 
> The Myrmidons of Greek myth were *known for their loyalty* to their leaders, so that in pre-industrial Europe the *word "myrmidon" carried many of the same connotations that "robot" does today*. Myrmidon later came to mean "hired ruffian" (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) or "a loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question, protest, or pity - unquestioning followers." (Dictionary.com).
> Myrmidons is also the title of the first of a trilogy of plays by Aeschylus, collectively known as Achilles. The other plays in the trilogy are Nereids and Phrygians. See Achilles (play) for more.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

Zeus is again the father... but in shape of ant... this might be about foreign people who are somehow identified with ants subjugating Thesaly represented by Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthia.... as Zeus is explanation for everything (easier than to realize that other side was better in waging war) than it was Zeus disguised in those people who subjugated the tribe....

----------


## iapetoc

How yes no

first 
in the area of makedonia you have only 2 cities

1 is Serres in ex thracian land 
2 is saloniki which is a town from roman hugeeeee,
emany times roman army setlle there

you don't show me elements of west Makedonia which the 2 stronghold,
not even ematheia or pieria which is the Argeiads stronghold,
why? in purpose?
I pass 
although remember that saloniki from ancient romans was center of universal trade and roman emperrors settle there

2nd according to dienekes we dont know the r1a if it is medieval or ancient,

let me remind you that in salonike you may find even normand dna and icelandic
cause until 1912 was the 1 rst in balkans trade city and 2 nd in ottomans after con/polis

and salonique was ocupied by romans serbs bulgars francais normand turks
salonique in 1900 had 15 official minorities except turk rulers

----------


## how yes no 2

> How yes no
> 
> first 
> in the area of makedonia you have only 2 cities
> 
> 1 is Serres in ex thracian land 
> 2 is saloniki which is a town from roman hugeeeee,
> emany times roman army setlle there
> 
> ...


I gave you the data that I could find about Greek genetics... don't kill the messenger... Dienekes is Greek patriot, so I guess you can trust that he didnot forge the data he collected from several articles about Greeks.....
I wish that there is more data about genetics of certain areas too... If I manage to find some more data I will post it... I know there was comparative research for Italy and Greece, but do not know if that is included in Dienekes compilation.... also in that research you can clearly see on maps how ancient Macedonia sticks out from the rest of Greece genetically... 

btw. what do you think about my interpretation of myth of Hellenic people and where Macedonians fit.....

my opinion is that it is about non-Greek R1a tribe that conquered some Greek tribe and was more or less hellenized.... hence relation to other Hellenic people via female line...

----------


## iapetoc

ok I agree with youin a point

but then you check the Italy were Greca-ni lives in south italy like Letse Taranto

Apulia

these were Greeks colonies, so if the had R1a that should move to Italy to colonies in East sicily and apulia etc
in the map the half area of Greek colonisation has R1a but the biggest part falls dramatically
meaning that R1a if it is connected with normands of sicily etc, or the latin crusade (4rth) cause slavic invasion in italy it is not mentioned

that is why even today the I2a and R1a is a question for Greeks
the I2a we know it is connected with persothracian and with Pre Greek locals
before pelasgians 

the problem to make it more clear is that in area of Greece we have today other ratio than in a colony of ancient time of the same city,

for example the R1a which is important to you drops dramatically in magna Grecia, 
Why?
on the other it is so old that could exists in Greece before,
same but not so dramatically is the I2a
the above makes many questions

that is why to find out the dominant of a Greek tribe you must search in specific areas, for example in Crimea you find peculiar results in spoted areas that does not suit with general distribute, that is of a colonization you go back and check the results in today people, and you can have a view of ancienty

sorry about the data, i know them also,
But if Makedonians were R1a in the cities they build, would be a good R1a,
but that is missing or is very low in Alexandreia Egypt, or Syria, etc, in fact it is more far east


No for zeus and women is not what you see
*cause Zeus also steal Europa from Phoenicia to Crete ....
So Zeus is Greek that time, but we don't know his name,*
*
It is a weding tradition in Greece to steal the Bride*
as also every Blessed child is from Zeus,
*Besides R1b kings today Aren't they Ελεω Θεου
instead of God Save Greeks had God's Son, it is same*
or davinci code or holy grail, or Jesus ..... son of God
that is the meaning of Zeus son

to understand it better
If not troyan war happened
Hellen of troy was taken by zeus to troy
she made 3 sons etc
later (when Zeus bored) she was married to Paris
that will be the story if troyan war did not happened

the body of Zeus will be the symbol of troy for example if troy had famoys geese 
then Zeus charmed Hellen as a goose

cretan - Bull
myrmidons - ant etc


as an example of the colonization search 
city A today has Ydna B at 20%
in colony A1 has spoted not wide 10 % in a wide 4 %
in colony A2 has spoted 25% in a wide 20% 
that leads me to say city A had B Ydna in far anciety

But if City A has 20 %
and colony A1 has 2 % in a wide 2%
and colony A2 has 1%
sorry city A had lower B Ydna in far past

by following that you can find many dominants 
and believe me the I2a and R1a drops, and raises the J2 and E outside Aegean,
But I2a is stable in Aegean colonization and falls slowly to ionic and Doric colonies of Pontus

----------


## Garrick

> ok I agree with youin a point
> 
> but then you check the Italy were Greca-ni lives in south italy like Letse Taranto
> 
> Apulia
> 
> these were Greeks colonies, so if the had R1a that should move to Italy to colonies in East sicily and apulia etc
> in the map the half area of Greek colonisation has R1a but the biggest part falls dramatically
> meaning that R1a if it is connected with normands of sicily etc, or the latin crusade (4rth) cause slavic invasion in italy it is not mentioned
> ...


Iapetoc,
excellent analysis.

I gave on other topics historical sources which Thracians or Thracian tribes equate with Serbs.

Connecting with your words:

*the I2a we know it is connected with persothracian and with Pre Greek locals*
*before pelasgians* 

we come to the knowledge of linking I carriers in the past with the Serbs, and the continuity of Thracian Serbian presence.

Now things become much clearer about I bearers in the Balkans.

----------


## iapetoc

Garrick not exactly 

The I carriers were here before the serbs as the devastasion is mentioned before history,
simply the serbian rulling class and culture took a new Identity after 500 AD but the majority of people were hear before the invasion, simply south slavic devastation sums some quantities and change culture by changing ruling class

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick not exactly 
> 
> The I carriers were here before the serbs as the devastasion is mentioned before history,
> simply the serbian rulling class and culture took a new Identity after 500 AD but the majority of people were hear before the invasion, simply south slavic devastation sums some quantities and change culture by changing ruling class


Iapetoc
I gave the answer on the topic: *Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA*, # 70.

Both today’s Serbs and Proto Serbs are I people. And Serbian ruling class in the Middle Ages very probably were I carriers.

Serbian nationalists are trying to say that Serbian ruling elites in the Middle Ages were R1a, but it is not true, and Nemanjices and others, with very high probability, they were I bearers.

R1a in the Balkans is a very very old and has nothing in common with the Serbian nobility in the Middle Ages.

Interestingly, the Americans carried out the researchings haplogroup some famous Americans of Serbian origin and they were I bearers.

And for the Serbian nobility there is no doubt that were I dominant, but it is important to explore very old cultures, for example Vincians.

Interestingly, the I people, according my knowledge, have never been numerous in the region of the Aegean and Ionian Sea.

I people have settled around the great rivers, such as the Danube, Neretva, Vardar and so on.

The biggest mystery is when and why I people received the language and culture R1a carriers. But it could be a very long time since I and R1a people thousands of years lived together in the Balkans.

So, and it has nothing to do with the medieval Serbian nobility, or some other elite.

----------


## how yes no 2

> And for the Serbian nobility there is no doubt that were I dominant, but it is important to explore very old cultures, for example Vincians.


why do you keep talking of Vincans and keep equating them with proto-Serbs? there are not much indicators that suggest such a connection...

haplogroup I2a2 does indeed show spread along Danube so Vincans could have been I2a (which doesnot mean they were)...

but if you know haplogroups of Vincans that still doesnot tell you anything about proto-Serbs (unless Vincans were both R1a and I2a2 with exact lineages as today in Serbia), as Vincans easily might have been completely unrelated to proto-Serbs....

----------


## iapetoc

Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads, 
J2 main and after E-V13 has connection

the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,

whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems

the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty

----------


## Garrick

> why do you keep talking of Vincans and keep equating them with proto-Serbs? there are not much indicators that suggest such a connection...
> 
> haplogroup I2a2 does indeed show spread along Danube so Vincans could have been I2a (which doesnot mean they were)...
> 
> but if you know haplogroups of Vincans that still doesnot tell you anything about proto-Serbs (unless Vincans were both R1a and I2a2 with exact lineages as today in Serbia), as Vincans easily might have been completely unrelated to proto-Serbs....


How yes no
I'm thinking more in the sense that it is useful to perform Y-DNA test for Vinicians, because it would answer some important questions.

Sure, you can be right, ie. maybe this test and did not answer, but certainly it will be worth a try and may prove an important result.

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads, 
> J2 main and after E-V13 has connection
> 
> the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,
> 
> whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
> whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems
> 
> the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty


Iapetoc
Ok, someone may interpret that I people are sea people when looking at the island of Sardinia, for example.

Yes, I people have settled part of the Adriatic and Black Sea.

But this may be due to lowering down the river Neretva and Dnepr and Dnestr.

However, I people from Anatolia did not come to the shores of the Middle East and North Africa, but they went to Iran and other inland parts, again led by rivers.

This is looking at the schedule I people in Balkans, Eastern Europe and Asia.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads, 
> J2 main and after E-V13 has connection
> 
> the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,
> 
> whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
> whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems
> 
> the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty


correct
J2 has clear correlation with spread along sea coasts and I2 along rivers...
also R1a in Balkan is still kind of enigma... I would like to see more research in Sorbs....

however, I think that Slavic settlers might have been dominantly I2a2 because I2a2 is single common dominant element for all south Slavs, because I2a2 distinguish FYRM Macedonians from FYRM Albanians, while R1a is fairly even spread among them... because Slavic Montenegro has twice less R1a than non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia.....

and also because Peloponesse that was massively settled by Slavs shows 22% of haplogroup I and only 1.8% of R1a...though more sampling is needed to have conclusive theory about this as sampling might have been in area that has not much Slavic influence...

----------


## DejaVu

In Europe, R1a, again almost entirely in the R1a1a sub-clade, is found at highest levels among peoples of Eastern European descent (Sorbs, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians; 50 to 65%). In the Baltic countries R1a frequencies decrease from Lithuania (45%) to Estonia (around 30%). Levels in Hungarians have been noted between 20 and 60%.
*In Southern Europe R1a1a is not common amongst the general population, but it is widespread in certain areas.* Significant levels have been found in pockets, such as in the Pas Valley in Northern Spain, areas of Venice, and Calabria in Italy. The Balkans shows lower frequencies, and significant variation between areas, for example >30% in Slovenia, Croatia and Greek Macedonia, but <10% in Albania, Kosovo and parts of Greece.









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population

----------


## iapetoc

How yes no

now as you see from the above dejavu post the R1a in greek makedonia is a mystery,
that is why i make an argue for data,
cause Iknow that the more the west the more E the more midlle the more J2 the more east and north I2a raises, 
my other question is the R1b in Greece, for me should be more Anatolian - minor asia than central European it should be connected with south Pontic areas than with celtic,

I believe that a search in body relicks of ancienty could help, although many sarcophagus have ashes

Now about I2a as a slavic, hmmm many times i connect it with perso thracian, and before J2 And E in balkans, but could it north carpathian or tatra and moved south later?

the trouble with I2a is that has slavic language and viking elements but it is not as R1a, in known expansion lands,
seems like I2a and R1a speak same language, but are tottaly independent in their moves and kingdoms, and not cooperative

----------


## Garrick

> How yes no
> 
> now as you see from the above dejavu post the R1a in greek makedonia is a mystery,
> that is why i make an argue for data,
> cause Iknow that the more the west the more E the more midlle the more J2 the more east and north I2a raises, 
> my other question is the R1b in Greece, for me should be more Anatolian - minor asia than central European it should be connected with south Pontic areas than with celtic,
> 
> I believe that a search in body relicks of ancienty could help, although many sarcophagus have ashes
> 
> ...


Iapetoc
There are a lot of different informations.

For example, *the linguist Sergei Rjabichkov* has long researched and published a lot of books, one of them is:

*Rjabichkov, Sergei V. 1998th Ancient texty Slavyan and adygov*

Interestingly, the author claims:

Reading of a *Linear A Text, Cretan tablets*

Reading of the text of the *Phaistos Disk*

corespond *(proto) Slavonic language*.

http://slavonicweb.chat.ru/disk.htm

Total by this author *Proto Slavonic languages are three*: 

1)*the Scythian (Sarmatian) language* is the Proto-Slavonic ones

2)Other Proto-Slavonic dialects are *the languages of the Pelasges* (the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos disk) and

3)of the *Etruscans*.

----------


## Neander

Acording to M. Iunian Iustin, in Epitoma, Macedonia early, was inhabited by pelasgian and in that time was called Emathia. 

Even Homer does'nt speak anywhere of Macedonia. 

The term Macedonia for the first time was used by Herodotus in th 5-th century.

Then, what is "Macedonia" and What is "Emathia"?

Macedonia is greek term to call that land, which by authoctonous pelasgians (emathians) was called Emathia. It is related to "megas" and means "tall, big or great".

The same is for Emathia, but it is not in greek, but in albanian, "e mathe" in south dialect (which is near Macedonia), means (big, tall, or great).

The first man to go in Olympian games was Alexander, the great-grandfather of Aleksander the Great.

The ancient Macedonians, were not greek, nor slavs. They were akin to Illyrians and Thracians, both to be pretended by majority of scholars as ancestors of albanians.

I think a Balkan historian, which doesn't know albanian language is a blind in his studies, because it is the only language to be compared with greek, and to explain the root of macedonian, thracian and illyrian and even greek words.

----------


## Neander

It seems, that Herodotus translated Emathia to Macedonia.

----------


## iapetoc

Neander 
may I remind you that The ancient Argeiads came from Pelloponese to Thessaly to Pieria And Kick Thracian Tribe Like Pieri,
Also if they were Illyrians then why their worst Enemy was Dardania????

Now Makedonia Means long hair in Attic and Cousin In Greco Thracian-Vrygian
*Homeric Greek: ammatho êmathoessa, sandy land , PIE *samadh ; the coastal, swampy land around Axius river, in contrast to mountainous Macedonia .*

The connection with Albanian MAT is Mistaken,

Ematheia is Part of Argeiad Territory as Pieria,
The connection you are writting is Wrong, the Area was Thracian and invaded By Greek in order to coonect with the Vrygians, in Fact the Thracians of the Area are not Pelasgoi But Leleges if you connect with Agrinio Greece,
That can be also proved that Pelasgian lived east of Chalkidiki in an Area where Argeiads had no Troubles,

for your information Aigea The capital is after the name of ancient Aiginion in Histia in thessaly, as also Pella means old like mt Pellion,
The Makedonians were the aeolians that invede Upper Makedonia (west)north of the cities of Phyllakai,
May I remind you that Phyllakai in Thracian Serdi -Seldi (in english soldier),
Even today that area is Named Servia from far ancienty, and the people are Shurdi from Sherdi - Sherdana -Sardeis etc
How Yes no knows about that, and connected them with R1a, although in dorian south we have drop of %,
the only connection that Argeiads have with Illyria is the area of Korce (Κορυτσα) and Girokaster (Αργυροκαστρο) and the the area of Ohrid that were in the counsil of Hettairoi, 

now about the illyrians read better Herodotus, and translate the words mistaken

The lands around Aegae, the first Macedonian capital, were home to various peoples. Macedonia was called Emathia (from king Emathion) and the city of Aiges was called Edessa, the capital of fabled king Midas. According to legend, Caranus, accompanied by a multitude of Greeks came to the area in search for a new homeland [5] took Edessa and renamed it to Aegae. Subsequently, he expelled Midas and other kings off the lands and he formed his new kingdom. A*ccording to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians*.
It seems that the first Macedonian state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty, who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city of Argos in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead).[7] The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").


as you see Neander the connection of @e [email protected] is mistaken,
cause in Greek-Pelasgian MAK-ros means one dimension very big
Mek-os MAk-ros is the length and makros the far Big 
find the word ΜΑΚΡΥΣ In your lexicon

now in pelasgic means Mak-edi (far away cousin or the tall fillia φυλλη) the edi is Vrygian and ethi (ethin) the greek and we find it in many thracian tribes like Maedi Bythini-Bethini etc
Ethi pass to mean the today ethnic Ethnos
MAk-Edi ->MAkedi ->makedonian
about the meaning of tall MAk-tribe
the tribe of the tall people, although we know that Phillip and Argeiads were short 
or the far away cousins relatives

Phillip 1,68 m according the vergina tomb


Ematheia cames 
either from PIE sand land 
either from king Ematheion of Thrace (Samothace-Emathothrace)
Makedonia is the area that Argeiads unite and ruled.
Pieria Ematheia Bottiiea Bissaltia (Bissedi) Syntica, Servia, Aenae Balla Eordaia etc
later a roman province
in byzantine was the name of Bulgaria, etc
the connection with Illyria is incoorect cause
1 Makedonians always in war with Dardania,
2 Makedonians ally were the Molloseans Epirotans who invade Illyria, and had Later Pyrros

*The before MAkedonian Capital of ematheia was Κιτιον kition which is an Arcadocypriot word
*you can find the name of kition in many areas as also the 1rst name of cyprus
the before Makedonian capital of Pieria was Λειβυθρα Leivethra 
which is a very ancient toponym that connects with Phoenician
probably like other Pelasgian or Leleges, toponym word is Semitic and means either Leibun (a holy pine tree) or Levi (holy man-priest)
we know that cause LeiBethra is near MAkedonian holy city of Dion,

and if Neander you still insist Find about Pieri,

*now about Homer ^ Iliad 14.226
now about Makedonians Illyrians always in war,
about the tall tribe I explained it to you in Pelasgian, not IE
About the ancestors of Illyrians read about Cadmus,
About the ancestors of Albania seek for Anju* *and Normands*

*Besides Makedonians invade that area 300-400 after Hommer*
*In Order to connect with Brygians*

in fact History proves that Makedonians and Illyrians were in Hate, except 3 Kings of areas I report above
*REMEMBER THAT PAIONI FOLLOWED ALEXANDER BUT DARDANI DID NOT FOLLOW HIM 
AS ALSO REMEMBER THE SKUDRA* 


Neander you are maybe right, 
But albanian language is not the only that kept pelasgic, 
2nd excavations proves what History says,
3rd THE MAKEDONIANS KICK THE THRACIANS TO EAST (PIERI TRIBE)
The MAkedonians took the land of Bryges and Bethini who moved to asia minor
so what ancient people??
THE BRYGES AND THE PAIONI WERE NOT PERSO or ILLYRO-THRACIANS
BUT GRECO-THRACIANS
now about the Ancient Makedonians what were they History and excavations and Language is Clear
now about Albanian LAnguage I am Sure that it is precious But changes meanings of many words,
as example Ematheia is the toponym IN PIE of sand,
*sand in Greek Koine is Ammos in Homerick is Emathos* 
so the land of EMATHOS is EMATHOESSA which in Greek becomes EmathoeDa-> Emathoea-Ematheia
*besides at Homers Time that Area was under King Ematheion*
the simmilarity is just a coinsindance, 
*If a third meaning from Albanian Language it is acceptable, but in that case does not prove connection of Makedonians with Illyrians, But a Geografical area with tall people as described in Illyrian Language 
*Emathe land of tall people, does it says they are Illyrians?
to be more understood Scotia is Greek name for Scotland means the Dark LAnd, does that mean that Scotish are GrecoBrittish???
cause that is what you say, because @[email protected] means tall in Illyrian then Ematheia is Illyrian
ok then with your logic England in Greek is Albionia,
You see In Greek means that England is Albania, so English are Albanians, 
is it logic???, Ematheia in Albanian language means the tall, but that does not mean that they were Albanians,
Espagna in Greek means dedicated to god Pan (Phanus), does that mean that Spanish people are Greeks?
Russia means the red people land in Greek, but that does not mean the Russians are Greek,
or the name Russian is Greek, it comes From Ros PIE word
now about the blind thank you,
*I prefer to be blind than one eye* Neander

now about @e [email protected] who knows maybe the King of Samothrace was Illyrian,
But not the Argeads

*For Your Information The Ancient Makedonians were Greek
The ancient PIERI BRYGES BETHINI were PELASGIC LELEGES THRACIAN, NOT IILYROTHRACIANS NOT PERSO THRACIANS NOT DACI THRACIANS*,
in the lands of the Above settled the GREEK MAKEDONIANS

besides the Perso-Thracians are the today south slavs as genetick seems to lead to that conclusion

----------


## Neander

> Now Makedonia Means long hair in Attic and Cousin In Greco Thracian-Vrygian
> *Homeric Greek: ammatho êmathoessa, sandy land , PIE *samadh ; the coastal, swampy land around Axius river, in contrast to mountainous Macedonia .*


It is not sandy. Even it is fertile land, which produce a lot of grains.

It was made sandy, because make sense in Hellenic language. But it is not sandy.

Even, I dont understand why do you link Emathia with greek, while as ancient authors have said, Emathia was called so in the pelasgian time, so it is pelasgian word,

And Pelasgian didnt spoke hellenic.




> for your information Aigea The capital is after the name of ancient Aiginion in Histia in thessaly, as also Pella means old like mt Pellion,


For your information, Aiges was called after Goats, (you know the story).




> A*ccording to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians*.


Hellen, and Dorus didnt exist. It is mythic story about the creation of the hellenic nation.

Hellenic nation, was created after they separated from pelasgian. So pelasgian and illyrian in origin, they separated from them, and became Hellenes.

Thare is only on nation/race/language, until 8-th century, but it has not its proper name, because they never were politically united. But it was only one language/race/nation.

Illyrians and Hellens, it is the same name. Helios, which in albanian and illyrian became Hyll, we can see the root word H*L.

I said, the balkan historian, who doesnt know albanian language, is a BLIND HISTORIAN.

Just tell me what is the origin of word "BATRAXOS"???????????

----------


## Neander

Even we knoe some of words which are clearly albanian:

Macedonian - Albanian - English
Baskioi - Bashkoj - Unite, together, etc
Bathara - Batha

Macedonian - Illyrian
Sigyna - Sibyna

While Sigyna is linked to albanian Shigjete (archer), Sibyna is linked to albanian (Thuper).

But definitely, Macedonians were a mix of two kindred nations: Illyrians (west) and Thracians (east), as are the today albanians.

----------


## Neander

We must return our eyes to an older language which preceded greek nation.

Greek nation was formed circa 8-th century, as a separated from Pelasgians, Illyrians, and Thracians. There was only one nation until 8-th century.

But then the greeks separated, because of asiatic influence (orientalizing period, phoenician alphabet, the myth of Deluge taken from the semits etc). For example Albanians doesnt have the myth of Deluge.

----------


## Neander

> Ematheia cames 
> either from PIE sand land 
> either from king Ematheion of Thrace (Samothace-Emathothrace)
> Makedonia is the area that Argeiads unite and ruled.


It is ridicoulous, when you evoke some hipothetised words like PIE sand land, which is not proven to ever exist, and you totally ignore albanian word E madhe, which means big, tall, or great, and is related to Megas, and Makednoi (tall people).

So we must return our eyes, PIE is just hipothese. Albanian language is not hypothese, it exists, and I think you must learn that, because it is the only way to know the history of balkans.

Again I say, just tell me the origin/etymotlgy of word "BATRAXOS" ?????????

----------


## iapetoc

*Neander who is ridiculus?

you see every where Albania as ONE EYE CYCLOP

want Pelasgic ok*

*Zeus10 Bulsshit*

Hommer ΕΡΕΒΟΣ (go down in earth, Dark)
Albanian EREVET
Greek ΕΡΕΒΟΣ (the dark of death, not in wide use) Σκοτος ( the dark of the bottom of tartarus)

Zeus 10 says that Erevet is Albanian Word and Hommer was Illyrian
well lets see the truth
*Semitic EREBU = DARK*

*Semitic J Pelasgian and cadmus J2*
*so the History and the Myth exists
cause Pelasgian J2 in Aegean is also In Albania 
meaning that Erevet came from Cadmus Pelasgian to Illyria,* since pelasgian is the cyclades civillization J2
*History is to solve hands not create bullshit, as ZEUS10 DOES or aristidi kolla*

maybe as I see in Albanian nationalistic sites Egyptians are albanians scottish are albanians maybe semitic people are Albanians,

The Aigean was inhabitted by many,
the Pelasgoi were J2 people, also the Leleges exist also the E people of mess

The Dorians comes from the area of Lokri as their city in Magna Grecia were speak Dorian Greek, Doros is the 1rst Meaning of dorians, In fact Dorians have no Connection with Illyria,
The only connection with Illyria the Prehistoric Phoenician-Pelasgian Cadmus and the later Aeolic rulers of South Illyria or North Epirus or what ever, that area from Greek Thesprotia to Greek Colony Apollonia- Pogiani and Epidamnus, or the Albanian Cammeria to Durres that area were Aeolic Illyrian Messapic 

*about βατραχος

watch 
ATTIC
ΦΟΡΘΥΞ -> Φορτυγ-ος 
In Crete 
ΑΦΟΡΘΑΚΟΣ AFORTHAKOS
in MAkedonia 
AΒΟΤΡΑΚΟΣ
DORIC
ΒΟΘΡΥΞ
Ionic (also pontic Greek)
ΦΟΘΡΑΚΑΣ


* Φ ανδ Β nad Π ασ Τ Δ Θ ανδ Κ Γ Χ

In Brygian Greco-Thracian is *ΑΒΟTΡΑXΟΣ*
becomes the BΑΡΤΑΧΟΣ - ΒΑΤΡΑΧΟΣ

ΤΗΕ OLD IE AFORTHAKOS -> Frog Frosh Varde 

*Even today in Makedonia and Crete the fat ugly woman is Forthaka or Vorthaka (ugly as female frog)*

I am interesting in the Albanian Explanation,

I hope not a bullshit of Zeus10 or aristidi Kolla

----------


## Neander

> I hope not a bullshit of Zeus10 or aristidi Kolla


Aristidh Kolia, was killed, as he said: Don't deny about that, they killed me, like they killed many others like me.

It is Orthodox fundamentalism which is fighting against true pelasgian spirit. They even changed history, 

For Zeus10, I did'nt cited him. And I suport him anytime, but in other cases I don't agree with him.

Let return to Batraxos:

You did'nt gave me the explanation of Batraxos, You didnt told me why it is called exactly Batraxos and not with other name.

I tell you. In Albanian it is called Bretkosa, and the male counterpart is Bretku.

In geg dialect, -bret- means (I am not sure cause I dont know english well), Scream, and it is called so because like we say "Bretkoca bret", or "Frog scream", and they do it in the spring, when males seek females, for copulation.

BReTKosa, and BaTRaKos, so we have BRTK, and BTRK. The same consonants.

Even from the word Bretk is derived Breshka which means Turtle, because they are similar in form and color.

Only albanian explain, why it is called Bretkosa and Batraxos.

It is Balkan the cradle of IE language.

Pelasgian = PIE

The greek is nothing more just a derivat of Pelasgian like Illyrian, thracian etc. But only one lanmguage, saved the word-forming from ancient times, and has the ability to explain the origin of words.

----------


## Neander

> maybe as I see in Albanian nationalistic sites Egyptians are albanians scottish are albanians maybe semitic people are Albanians,


It has not any link to me. 

We are telling our facts. I give you right, when you already have the right.

----------


## Zajaz

Hi everybody,

I am a new member here! As far as I see, there are already 20 pages full of discussions concerning ancient ethnicity of Macedones whether they were Greeks or distinct from them. The way how some members manage to solve Macedonian old ethnicity is quite simplistic and erroneous. 
It can not be ignored the very fact that Macedones were established in a territory which previously was peopled densely by either Illyrians and Thracians. That's why the legends of foundation of first kingdom mentioned Illyria or Illyrians. 




> 137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–From Argos *there fled to the Illyrians* three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; *and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia* they came to the city of Lebaia.
> 
> 137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς *Ἰλλυριοὺς* τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ *Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.*


The above Herodotes's story invoke that Illyria or Illyrians were the first neighbors of Macedones. In that paragraph we learn that Illyria was situated in outskirts of Argos, Upper Macedonia and Lebaia city. There is a plethora of facts emphasizing the solid Illyrian presence in Upper Macedonia as well as Lower Macedonia. I highly doubt that the so called "Peleponnesia origin" of Macedonians has any value since the Macedonians did not come from there. I think it was all a matter of confusion with the another Argos, which is situated in Orestia (who is thought to be the homeland of Maketas). By the way, Orestes as well as their neighboring countries had clear Illyrian features. To sum it up, Macedonians were most probably Illyrians...or kinsmen of them. The colonization of Macedonia's coast with Hellenic colonies brought up a new era, where Hellenism begun to extent in the very interior of the country. This was facilitated even by diplomatic efforts of Macedonian aristocracy to be engaged in Hellenic affairs in order to establish themselves as overlords of Hellas (which was suffering the causalities of long civil war of Athens-Sparta rivalry). 

Thnx

----------


## how yes no 2

> Even we knoe some of words which are clearly albanian:
> 
> Macedonian - Albanian - English
> Baskioi - Bashkoj - Unite, together, etc
> Bathara - Batha


hello, that's cheating....

Macedonian báskioi had a meaning "leather sack"...
that is not exactly the same as unite/together


on other hand from list of 6 preserved ancient Macedonian words from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language

1. Macedonian δάνος dánοs ('death', from PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave'),
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek θάνος thános

2. Macedonian ἄδραια adraia ('bright weather'), 
adraia (ancient Macedonian) = vedro (serbian) - common root: adr

3. Macedonian Βερενίκη Bereníkē - bearing victory
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek - Φερενίκη Phereníkē - bearing victory

4. Macedonian ἀβροῦτες abroûtes - eyebrows
abroutes (ancient Macedonian) = obrve (serbian) - common root: brv

5. Macedonian βάσκιοι báskioi ('fasces'), leather sack' 
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek φάσκωλος pháskōlos - leather sack

6. Macedonian μάγειρος mágeiros ('butcher') 
magerios (ancient Macedonian) = mesaros (Serbian)

thus, completely explainable with mix of Greek and Serbian, which is due to R1a people mixed with Greek tribes....


Greek myths of origin relate Macedon to Hellen via female line....R1a that is in Greek Macedonia twice higher than in nearby Slavic nations explains why...
I believe that ancient Macedonians were kind of union of R1a proto-Serbs with Greeks... 





> Macedonian - Illyrian
> Sigyna - Sibyna
> 
> While Sigyna is linked to albanian Shigjete (archer), Sibyna is linked to albanian (Thuper)


again cheating...archer is completely different word from spear....
in that way sabre (sablja in Serbian) is same word as Sibyna...

interesting relation between Sigyna and spear appear in Croatia
place called Sinj (comapere sound of it to Sigyna) where there is traditional competition of spearman - sinjska alka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alka

interesting relation between Sibyna and spear we find in Serbian epic songs 

Sibinjanin Janko is the name given in Serbian epic songs to person whose name was Janos Hunyadi - 




> John Hunyadi (Croatian: Janko Hunjadi, Hungarian: *Hunyadi János* [ˈhuɲɒdi ˈjaːnoʃ], Medieval Latin: Ioannes Corvinus or Ioannes de Hunyad, Romanian: Iancu (Ioan) de Hunedoara, Serbian: Сибињанин Јанко / *Sibinjanin Janko*, Slovak: Ján Huňady) (c. 1407[3] – 11 August 1456), nicknamed The White *Knight* of Wallachia[4] was a general (1444–1446) and Regent-Governor (1446–1453) of the Kingdom of Hungary.[5][6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunyadi

Hungarian noble, knight fighting with spear, and also someone who organized Hussars - light cavalry of Hungarian army made out of Serbian warriors who were under Sibinjanin Janko waging wars against Turks ... 



> A type of irregular light horsemen was already well established by the 15th century in medieval Hungary.[1] Etymologists are divided over the derivation of the word 'hussar'.[2] Many scholars believe the word originated in Serbian[3] as 'Husar', derived from the Latin root 'cursus' meaning 'raid'.[2] According to Webster's the word hussar stems from the Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from the Serbian хусар (Husar, or гусар, Gusar) meaning pirate, from the Medieval Latin cursarius (cf. the English word corsair).[4]
> ...
> The hussars reportedly originated in bands of* mostly Serbian warriors* [9] crossing into southern Hungary after the Turkish invasion of Serbia at the end of the 14th century. The Governor of Hungary, *Hunyadi János* - John Hunyadi, created mounted units inspired by his enemy the Ottoman Turks
> ...
> Gusar light cavalry forces were part of the medieval Serbian military. *Armed with spears* and pentagonal wood shields padded with metal, they supported the noble knights as their second line on the battlefield.[12] In the middle of each wooden shield, there was a round metal knob that held the shield together.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussars


now
*sibyna* = spear
and Hunjadi Janos who organized Husars who *fight* on horse *with spears* and shield, is in Serbian epic poetry called *Sibinjanin* Janko

Sibyna = spear is obviously root of word *Sibinjanin* and *must have had meaning "spear warrior"*





> But definitely, Macedonians were a mix of two kindred nations: Illyrians (west) and Thracians (east), as are the today albanians.


Origin of Albanians is twofold:
Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13

Illyrians is difficult even to exactly locate - most likely their location is north most Albania (most of south and central Albania of today was Greek Epirus), Montenegro and Serb settled part of Herzegovina (or up to river Neretva).... later Romans gave wrongly name Illyria to much larger area that included unrelated tribes such as various Pannonian tribes, Japodes, Liburnians, Histri....

the few preserved words of Illyrian language are completely alien to Albanian in meaning (for match both form and meaning must match... everything else is cheating and there is lot of shameless cheating of that kind in Illyrian ideology spread by those Albanians who are brainwashed to take for granted and blindly believe that they origin from Illyrians)....and anthropologically they are tall Dinaric people while Albanians are Mediteranean people whose height is not so large.....their haplogroup could have been E-V13, J2b, I2a2, R1b, R1a... hard to say... 

if Illyrian coast was complete Adriatic coast, than they probably did have dominant I2a2...
otherwise, if Illyrian coast is just north Albania, Montenegro and Herzegovina till Neretva river, best guess we can obtain about haplogroups of Illyrians is by comparing data from Serbia and Montenegro (core of Illyrian state is Montenegro)

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___*27.0%*
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____*9.4%* 
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____*4.7%*
J2b ____________1.7% ___*4.5%*
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo


thus, in that case, Illyrians probably had E-V13, J2b, R1b, J2a and perhaps also some I2a2 but not as dominant

reason I add I2a2 is that along Adriatic coast of Italy is some I2a2 while there was no Slavic settlement there and there were Illyrian settlements... also it is clear that not all I2a2 came with south Slavs as there are hotspots of I2a2 in some not Slavic settled areas of Greece and Asia minor... 
I believe part of previous I2a2 is due to Veneti, who once were known as Paphlagonia Eneti...
and early Slavs were identified as being of race of Veneti by Jordanes...
relation between Veneti and Illyrians is disputed...some people consider them to be same folk, some not... likely reason of confusion is Roman province of Illyria that included e.g. Liburnians who are almost certainly closely related to Veneti...
actually, some I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy could be due to Adriatic Veneti (not to be mixed with much later Venetian republic which only got name due to town of Venetia)...

----------


## Neander

> *βάσκιοι baskioi 'fasces' (Hes. Attic δεσμοὶ φρῡγάνων desmoì phrūgánōn, Pokorny βασκευταί baskeutaí, Attic φασκίδες phaskídes, Attic φάσκωλος pháskōlos 'leather sack', PIE *bhasko-)*


*Fasces are those who unite axe with sheaves in the roman symbol.*

*So fasces have simmilar meaning. But I think you dont know how Etymology works.*

*Even we dont know Macedonian at all. That in Wikipedia is not original macedonian language. It is greek dialect which was spoken in Hellenized Emathia, and the vocabulary was written late in 5 century after Christ.*




> *again cheating...archer is completely different word from spear....*
> *in that way sabre (sablja in Serbian) is same word as Sibyna...*


*It is not completely different, they are arms, to fight with them.* 

*



Origin of Albanians is twofold:


*


> *Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J*
> *Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13*


*These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.*

*Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.*

*Sot because Greeks, had the state (Byzantium), they assimilated all peoples of Anatolia, even the Jews etc.*

*But Albanians could not assimilate anybody, because they had not state, specially not in th south, until the late medieval (Ghin Bue Spata).*

*How the Epirots became Albanized?? Maybe some Gheg children armed with sibynas came in south and said to them, "Hey Epirots, come speak Albanian, we kill you", and the epirots were frightened, and begaun to speak albanian. hahha*

*So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.*

*In the 385 BC Dionis of Syrakusa, help Illyrians with 2000 soldiers and 5000 arms, to fight against the philospartan party of Molossians, and to bring in the throne Alketa which was with antispartan party of Molosians. So the enemity between, Illyrians, is not argument to tell that they were different peoples. Even today Albanians fight eachother.*

*It was only one language, race, nation, in Ballkan until 8-th century BC, but in this time, some people there in the south, bastardized their language, Bretkosa became Batraxos, Illyrian became Hellen etc.*

*Macedonia was not Hellen, but it was hellenized later.*

*Even Alexander the Great, frequently spoke barbarian language to his macedonian soldiers. Even when he killed Kleitus, spoke barbarian language.*

*Macedonia has not any link to greece.*

----------


## Neander

> Illyrians is difficult even to exactly locate - most likely their location is north most Albania (most of south and central Albania of today was Greek Epirus), Montenegro and Serb settled part of Herzegovina (or up to river Neretva).... later Romans gave wrongly name Illyria to much larger area that included unrelated tribes such as various Pannonian tribes, Japodes, Liburnians, Histri....


It is not difficult. But it seems that you dont know much about history,. they lived from Slovenia to Ambrakia in the south, and from Adriatic sea to the Danub and Morava and vardar(Axios) river.




> I believe that ancient Macedonians were kind of union of R1a proto-Serbs with Greeks...


And you have forget that serbs in the time of Alexander the Great had a great civilization, they hed electric and even they had computers.

----------


## Neander

> actually, some I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy could be due to Adriatic Veneti (not to be mixed with much later Venetian republic which only got name due to town of Venetia)...


I2a2 has not any link in this thread. It is thread about Macedonia, and I2a2 is a slavic haplogroup, and Slavs came later in the 7 cebntury after christus

----------


## Neander

We cannot separate haplogroup Ev13 and J2b, since they are together since Neolithic times. Both haplogroups have the peak in Kosovo.

So they are both dardanian, or simply illyrian haplogroups.

Others like R1a1 and I2a2 came with Slavs. 

R1b came in various times, in ancient times as slaves of Roman patrons, later with various waves of migrations.

But only Ev13 and J2b are authoctonous. Thse represent the only race/language/nation which lived, through all Balkan, Italia, Rhaetia, Noricum, Dacia, Anatolia etc.

Macedonia is not exception.

----------


## how yes no 2

> It is not difficult. But it seems that you dont know much about history,. they lived from Slovenia to Ambrakia in the south, and from Adriatic sea to the Danub and Morava and vardar(Axios) river.


such area of influence would directly imply that they were I2a2 dominant people... as I2a2 is common element for people in that area...




> We cannot separate haplogroup Ev13 and J2b, since they are together since Neolithic times. Both haplogroups have the peak in Kosovo.
> So they are both dardanian, or simply illyrian haplogroups.
> Others like R1a1 and I2a2 came with Slavs. 
> R1b came in various times, in ancient times as slaves of Roman patrons, later with various waves of migrations.
> But only Ev13 and J2b are authoctonous. Thse represent the only race/language/nation which lived, through all Balkan, Italia, Rhaetia, Noricum, Dacia, Anatolia etc.
> Macedonia is not exception.


if we are going to play game of who is more autochthonus (which doesnot make much sense as one can choose snapshot in history that proves his nation being more autochton), then
actually, E and J are less autochton in Balkan than R1a and I2a2...
because:

1) it is widely accepted that haplogroup I is in Europe before arrival of neolithic groups...

2) R1a is ancient old in areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia. it is 11000 years old there while in rest of Europe it is 3-5000 years ago....
11000 years ago is much before arrival of E and J...




> evidence has been obtained that the oldest* R1a1 lived* circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and *11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).* (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, *present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago* (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),


http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf




> So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as *ancient authors* said, have the same race, same language and same customs.


quote sources... find text on internet (there are sites with ancient texts online)...link to it... otherwise I consider it just another propaganda trick...

----------


## iapetoc

Neander 

you only prove me that your Pelasgian are Good




> You did'nt gave me the explanation of Batraxos, You didnt told me why it is called exactly Batraxos and not with other name.
> 
> I tell you. In Albanian it is called Bretkosa, and the male counterpart is Bretku.
> 
> In geg dialect, -bret- means (I am not sure cause I dont know english well), Scream, and it is called so because like we say "Bretkoca bret", or "Frog scream", and they do it in the spring, when males seek females, for copulation.
> 
> BReTKosa, and BaTRaKos, so we have BRTK, and BTRK. The same consonants.
> 
> Even from the word Bretk is derived Breshka which means Turtle, because they are similar in form and color.
> ...


Cretan Dialect κουζου-λος kuzu means screamer, the mad man yells
Ionic Greek Kουζος means loud speaker, yell man
KOINE Κυρηξ-Kος Κurix Kurex means preacher and delalis
the Virb is Κουω-ζω means yell
modern Greek is Σκουζω 

now Bretku and Bretkosa means the Bret yell, the one that yells always Bret -bret

now if you don't like the explain in Greek pelasgian,
Next time don't try to explain Greek words with albanian, cause even your pelasgic means other

the Batraxos comes from Ionic Φορθυξ or dorian Βοθρυξ

ο Βοθρυξ 
του Βοθρακου - βοτραχου - βατραχου

*which is more near the Botrakos or bretku?*

*or In your explanation comes the virb* 
βρυχομαι brychomai-vrychomai
means i immitated the lion, I yell-scream roarrrrrr
Βρυχομαι is Homeric as also θρωμαι thromai
βρυχομαι means i Make big sound to scary someone I scream I yell 
Βρυχηθμος is lion yell the scary sound
θρωμαι means the opposite the light sound the soft rrrrr sound 
θροος is the sound, as an example the tree leaves in soft wind the throoun θρωουν 
θροος is also the sound of wind
θορυβος is the louder to annoy ears sound
βρυχηθμος is the very loud scary sound
*
now If Bret is connected Homeric Brych -Bruch I don't know.
I leave it to you to deside
as also -ku if it is the pelasgic Ionic Kuzo Κουω-Κουζω I don't know
You are albanian, you know your language*



BUT
*I GAVE YOU THE EXACT WORD FROM WHERE BATRAXOS COMES
THE PIE FORTHYX ΦΟΡΘΥΞ ιν ΑΤΤΙΚ ορ ΑΒΟΡΘΑΚΟΣ ΟΡ ΒΟΘΡΥΞ*
simply the φορθυξ -> φροθυκ - φρογκ -frog or frosh etc
only the change position of r connects it with many other IE languages


The same Bullshit also was done by Kolla and Zeus10 
simply bullshit, one eye cyclops that pass Albanians for stupid,
I believe Albanians are more Clever people to read Zeu10

*and I must ask you next time you say Bullshit PLZ ACCEPT YOUR IGNORANCE IN GREEK PELASGIC* cause as I don't attempt to explain Albanian words plz dont try to explain Greek words with Albanian, 
*I know were a woman has the .... don't need you to show the hole of a brick* 
the Bretku is albanian and has no connection with Botrakos-Batraxos
if *I repeat If* due to respect to albanian language analyze it then with Greek pelasgic means Bret singer Bret yell




*NOW ABOUT MAKEDONIANS*
What Illyrian? MAkedonia took places that Vrygian and Bethini left, for the eternal war with Dardani
original Vruges are area north of Ohrid, and wars with Dardani push them to Bottiea
Dardani and Makedonians eternal war, what Illyrians and Thracians,
The only Illyrian that ally with Makedonian Argeians were the Amantes the penestaes and Parthini if I remember correct (the last maybe I am wrong)
only these 3 cities were in Hetairoi,
The paioni Thracians Ally with them and even Odrysse thracian offer peace and alliance exept Dardani
Besides the Half area of Makedonia east was and is habitted by Thracian, areas of Serres was Thracian Syntikes etc Mt Pangaion is Perso-Thracian name Aryan and means the Giving, in Greek means total Earth, the whole of Gaia, but that is Mistaken cause we know Paggaion mt comes the The thracian lingua, not from the Greek and means Giving land
The Homeric Nysa (in greek probably Nike or Nycha Νικη ορ Νυχiα)

Neander first find out what Dardani means, and then call Makedonians Illyrians,
Makedonians were clear Greeks from the area that Dorians that Hellen that Graikus were born Born

Now about aigai - aiges means goats, but search in Histieaiotis Ιστια in Thessaly where was the Makedonian first City Aiginion 
*
The town is built on the location of the ancient city of* *Aiginion.* 

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalabaka*

What Illyrians?
*Besides the Makedonian Dynasty claim Argos city and that is why they named Argeans

from @e [email protected] you destroy the whole History Lingua writers tradition just to say that Alaxander was Albanian

*if that is not Cyclopean Nationalism (nazism) then what it is?
simply I feel sorry for the Albanians that read you and Zeus10,*
I believe that Albanian Academic people are more clever that to connect the @e [email protected] (although I prove you it is wrong) with Makedonians, 

*Yes off course that Land was Thracian land a part of it,
but wars was done and Tribes moved, Find out about Pieri,The bulgarian Thracologist do not recon Pieri as a Thracian tribe but as a Greek, 
cause orpheus language is more Greek than odrysse Thracianthe tribe of Vryges is considered more greco Thracian than perso or slavo Thracianthe paiones are considered thracians but their Kings had Greek names,
Find out why


*Now about the balkans as the First area of speaking world or the center of IE*
I [email protected] KNOW, 
*I believe that minor Asia was the babel tower, and not the kurgan or the maykob etc
cause the more back we go and unite languages the more the area south of Armenia we found*, 
I am thinking if the semitic Erebu comes from the pelasgian Erebos-Erevet 
or the Pelasgian Erevet-Erebos comes from the semitic Erebu

----------


## iapetoc

Neander the ignorant Nazi Cyclop

Epirus read aristotle says that is ARCHAEGONUS ELLAS
mt PINDOS AND MOLLOSEAN TRIBE
WHAT BARBARIANS THE DODONA ORACLE
SIMPLY BULLSHIT BY A NATIONALIST WHOSE IDEAS HAVE BEEN SMASHED
EVEN TODAY IN MAKEDONIA WE NAME THE FROG BOTHRAKA AND YOU TELL TELL THAT S ALBANIN BRETKU>>> ONLY A ...... LUNATIC WILL CLAIM THAT
OK HELLEN WAS MYTH DORUS WAS MYTH
*ARISTOTLE WAS A MYTH ALSO??????*

only a pissed off chauvinist that has one eye would claim that
simply i feel sory for the albanians that believe you cause you hide the truth and yoi promote pan albanism,
and when your fake dcuments fall simply you raise everything
just as you did above
Epirotans Barbarians





> *Even we dont know Macedonian at all. That in Wikipedia is not original macedonian language. It is greek dialect which was spoken in Hellenized Emathia, and the vocabulary was written late in 5 century after Christ.*
> 
> *It is not completely different, they are arms, to fight with them.* 
> 
> *These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.*
> *Macedonia has not any link to greece.*


MAkedonia is was and will be always Greek
Besides ORpheus was not Illyrian
Neither KARAMOS 

Now since you don't know about the barbaric Makedonian Dialect I must inform you that Was
not Illyrian language but doric+aeolic+brygian
*the makedonians did not spoke attic, and that means Barbarian to the Atheneans, but what can some wait from one that Believes and insist that Batraxos is not from Bothrakos but from bretku* 

Neander you make epirotans barbarians, aristotle says other
you make makedonians illyrians (wow)
next what? the cretans? 

The Greeks comes from pelasgic civilization as non IE
but learn the IE either from Hettit either from Mycenae
the first attempt to unite was done under mycenae at 1200 BC
the later sea people destruction sent back hellenic civilization that started again with more IE elments in Hellenas river
the 776 Bc is the new start date that started much before to restore and unite area,
in that time Makedonians from Thessaly invade Pieria and kick the pieri and unite the GrecoPelasgic Thracians to Makedonia

*Accept it,* 

*besides found out who were the Skudra or skodra*
what dardani means, whom allies were the dardani?
Epirotans were not barbarians
*EPIROTAN WAS THE PYRROS AND THE KASTRIOTI*
except if you believe that kastrioti was barbarian

Understand it 
*The Pelasgians were not Albanians
the albanians have pelasgic elements
as also Greeks Bulgarians Fyromians Serbians
Latin Rasians Lazic etc

The pelasgian civilization destroyed by a volcano
the remnants created nations and tribes

and since you say that Greeks were cut
May i remind you that Dardania was the center of Persian Empire in Balkans Skodra 

*now I admit that area of central Makedonia was inhabited by Thracian Pieri 
which were Not Illyrians and I inform you that pieri were pushed to East
*May I remind you that Bottieans were GREEKS from CRETE*
May I remind you that Mygdonians Bryges were Isotones Languages to Greek, simply MAkedonians moved from Aiginion Thessaly to Herakleia to dion Pydna Bala and occupied land of thracians,
*if Makedonians were illyrians as you say then why the worst enemy of Argeians was Dardania?*
*if MAkedonians were thracians then why it took them 400 years to defeat them, and only 30 years to conquer Greece?*

if you are a linguist then you know that Greek Dias Dios (Zeus)
today is the Vrygian -MAkedonian Theos 
dios Greek -> Tios Vrygian-MAkedonian ->theos today

why Paiones kings had Greek names????

Albanians are not the only thracians or pelasgian accept it,
Makedonians Argeians as also Orestias Herakleia Lynchia were Greek
and if not they were pelasgian so same thing, since Greek comes from Pelasgians

Makedonians Argeians unite Greek-Thracian Bottieans Mygdonians, kick Pieri and Bethini and took the lands of Vrygians,
you want or not Batraxos does not come from betku (not even same root)
but from Forthyx 

I admit that I don't know Albanian language,
But when we use 1 language to explain a word of another language we must be carefull and respect
Betku does not explain Batraxos But Bothrakos does
same bullshit made Kolla and Zeus10, exactly the same
they believe That Pelasgians are albanians, and Greek is Albanian language and without knowing 1 Greek word they started to explain wrong Greek words
*as an example of Kolla
Homeric Thera = door
AlBanian Dera = door
Greek Porta = door
But porta is from LAtin occupation francais port
Greek word is Thyra θυρα 
and the high ignorance stupidity 
Homeric Dera means fleece
meaning kolla write whatever*  :Grin:   :Grin: 

the same thing you do with bretku
and although i Have to [email protected] [email protected]
you insist that Bretku is the original and Bothrakos not  :Useless:   :Useless: 

plz keep away Albanian Nazi propaganda
the Greek language is the Greek language
The albanian is the Albanian
they both have Pelasgian elements but that does not mean that albanian can explain Greek or the opposite, but only similarity in the words you find,
Greek language is Pelasgic But not Albanian realize that and stop finding albania behind every Greek word that sounds same


And remember that Epirotans are BArbarians and not archegonus Greece
then Kastrioti is a barbarian

----------


## Zajaz

> [/COLOR]Epirus read aristotle says that is ARCHAEGONUS ELLAS
> mt PINDOS AND MOLLOSEAN TRIBE
> WHAT BARBARIANS THE DODONA ORACLE


Hi iapetoc,
It seem obvious that you are clueless about ethnic character of ancient Epirotes. At the same time, your ambitious claim about Epirotes being Greeks does not hold any water because its runs against all literary sources from ancient Greek and Roman writers. Epirotes were never reckoned as genuine Hellenes; ancient historians never hesitate to call them as 'Barbarians' i.e non-Greeks. Instead of making fallacious pretensions, why you don't put forward any proof to back up your claims? I mean do tell us what are the literary sources that indicate any kind of Greekness of Epirotes?
Indeed ancient sources firmly indicate the non-Greekness of Epirus. Take a look at the below quote:




> *Plutarch, The Parallel Lives p347 The Life of Pyrrhus* 
> "Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great flood, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus"


So, Pelasgus (the eponym of Pelasgians, according to other mythical traditions) is said to be one of the first who came in Epirus. Needless to say, that no one consider Pelasgians as Greeks. 
Let's go further:




> *Strabo the Geographer*
> φασὶ δὲ *καὶ κατὰ τὴν τῶν Μολοττῶν καὶ Θεσπρωτῶν γλῶτταν τὰς γραίας πελίας καλεῖσθαι καὶ τοὺς γέροντας πελίους*· καὶ ἴσως οὐκ ὄρνεα ἦσαν αἱ θρυλούμεναι πελειάδες, ἀλλὰ γυναῖκες γραῖαι τρεῖς περὶ τὸ ἱερὸν σχολάζουσαι
> 
> *It is further said that in the language of the Molossians and the Thesprotians old women are called "peliai" {482} and old men "pelioi." {483}* And perhaps the much talked of Peleiades were not birds, but three old women who busied themselves about the temple.


At the Strabo's time the language of Epirus was acknowledged as entirely different from Greek. In addition with this, Epirus wasn't geographically in Greece because the northern confines of Greek world hardly passed Thessaly.



> Strabo 11.14.12.
> ἔδει μὲν γὰρ αὐτοῖς ἐπιθέτου κόσμου τοιούτου τινός, οἱ δὲ Θετταλοὶ μάλιστα βαθυστολοῦντες, ὡς εἰκός, διὰ τὸ πάντων εἶναι Ἑλλήνων βορειοτάτους καὶ ψυχροτάτους νέμεσθαι τόπους ἐπιτηδειοτάτην παρέσχοντο μίμησιν τῇ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν διασκευῇ ἐν τοῖς ἀναπλάσμασιν·
> "*The Thessalians* in particular wore long robes, *probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region*" .


If Epirotes were kins with other Greeks, then Strabo and other geographers would say that from all the Greeks, Epirotes lived in the most northerly region. But this was not the case. They identified only a part of Thessalians as being Hellenes. 
It would be my greatest pleasure to take into consideration this bunch of proofs whenever you decide to express any opinion about Epirus and its people!

----------


## Zajaz

by the way, I find it as necessary to post again the Herodotus's testimony because it is purposefully ignored by some members here:




> 137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–*From Argos there fled to the Illyrians* three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; *and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.*
> 
> 137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.


Judging by this literary testimony, the Macedonian ethnogenesis is related narrowly with the Illyrians. Herodotus's story makes known the direction of three Macedonian brothers: firstly they fled to the Illyrians...and passing from Illyrians they came in a certain city of Upper Macedonia called Lebaia. So a large portion of what became Macedonia was previously called Ἰλλυριοὺς and its inhabitants as Illyrians. 

The long rivalry between Macedonians and Illyrians says nothing about any ethnic difference between them. It was just a conflict to extent the control between strategic points and fertile plains. We have the long warfares between Athens and Sparta and it would be useless to doubt their Greekness. 

An another huge mistake that is performed by some members here is the confusion between Argos of Peleponessus and Argos of Orestikon (the real place where Macedonian kings sprung). 

To judge more correct the ethnic sameness between Illyrians and Macedonians, we have to compare Upper Macedonians (which were certainly of Illyrian blood) with the highlanders of Pieria mountains (the homeland of Macedones). Despite the fact that they fought for a centuries with one another for hegemony, there was no difference between them in ethnic manner. Illyrians (or Upper Macedonians) were the first people who became part of Macedonian kingdom. Later on, Macedonian kings married with women from that region and during Asiatic campaign of Alexander the Great, a large number of soldiers were recruited from Upper Macedonia.

----------


## Neander

iapetoc. Thank you very much for you offended me and my nation. It is your "pelasgian" culture.

In your post I don't see any fact only, and ity seems that you don't much about history. Please read ancient authors, from the first to last. Majority of them tell us that Epirotes and Macedonians were barbarians, and that means non-greeks.

Barbarian in the ancient time doesnt means "un-cultured people", because all were cultured, All natios had a kind of script, and wrote anything at least, but barbarian are those who didnt spoke greek.

Even the inhabitants of Aitholia, speak a language which is not understandable - says Herodotus.

Your post is so intermingled with spams, so I dont want to reply anything to your words.

----------


## Elias2

> Hi iapetoc,
> It seem obvious that you are clueless about ethnic character of ancient Epirotes. At the same time, your ambitious claim about Epirotes being Greeks does not hold any water because its runs against all literary sources from ancient Greek and Roman writers. Epirotes were never reckoned as genuine Hellenes; ancient historians never hesitate to call them as 'Barbarians' i.e non-Greeks. Instead of making fallacious pretensions, why you don't put forward any proof to back up your claims? I mean do tell us what are the literary sources that indicate any kind of Greekness of Epirotes?
> Indeed ancient sources firmly indicate the non-Greekness of Epirus. Take a look at the below quote:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Pelasgus (the eponym of Pelasgians, according to other mythical traditions) is said to be one of the first who came in Epirus. Needless to say, that no one consider Pelasgians as Greeks. 
> Let's go further:
> 
> ...





Unlike most other Greeks of this time, who lived in or around city-states, the inhabitants of Epirus lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of the poleis of southern Greece.[1][14] Their region lay on the periphery of the Greek world[1] and was far from peaceful; for many centuries, it remained a frontier area contested with the Illyrian peoples to the north. However, Epirus had a far greater religious significance than might have been expected given its geographical remoteness, due to the presence of the shrine and oracle at Dodona - regarded as second only to the more famous oracle at Delphi.
The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17] Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive and Epidaurian lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys).[21] Plutarch mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning _unspeakable_, _unspeakably great_, in Homeric Greek).[22][23]
Beginning in 370 BC, the Molossian Aeacidae dynasty built a centralized state in Epirus and began expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes.[1] The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon, in part against the common threat of Illyrian raids,[24] and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias, niece of Arybbas of Epirus, married King Philip II of Macedon.[1] She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great.




I dunno, it sounds like Illyrians where Epirots main enemy.

----------


## Neander

> Plutarch mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning _unspeakable_, _unspeakably great_, in Homeric Greek).[22][23]


It is not unspeakable. But it i "i shpejti" Aspetos in albanian means fast man, which is the first characteristic of Achilles.

----------


## Neander

> I dunno, it sounds like Illyrians where Epirots main enemy.


When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.

Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.

----------


## Elias2

> When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.
> 
> Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.


What does that have to do with culture. I think your are making a mistake in using ancient politics to define a people. In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity. 



The theater of Dodona with Mt. Tomarus in the background.

It looks very greek to me.

----------


## Zajaz

> Unlike most other Greeks of this time, who lived in or around city-states, the inhabitants of Epirus lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of the poleis. of southern Greece


Copy-pasting a piece from WIKI doesn't give much credit, dude! I do not understand how you come up with such biased assertions like the above citation. It is true that the inhabitants of Epirus mostly lived in small villages that is quite different from social organization in Greece. But what this passage fail to mention is that ignore totally the very fact of the same organization in Illyris. For example, even Illyrians shared the same traditions, language, cultural affinities and social organizations with the Epirotes. 




> Their region lay on the periphery of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuries


That's weird! Epirus was excluded by most of ancient geographers from Greece. For many of them, the most northerly confine of Greece hardly surpassed Thessaly (more exactly Peneius river). The below description of Strabo (based on Ephorus account) reject your claims of Epirus as being Greek territory. 

Ἔφορος μὲν οὖν ἀρχὴν εἶναι τῆς Ἑλλάδος τὴν Ἀκαρνανίαν φησὶν ἀπὸ τῶν ἑσπερίων μερῶν· ταύτην γὰρ συνάπτειν πρώτην τοῖς Ἠπειρωτικοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, *Acarnania (Ambracia Gulf) is the beginning of Greece*; for, he adds, *Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes(Chaonian, Thesprotians, Molossi, Cassiopei*. 




> Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning _unspeakable_, _unspeakably great_, in Homeric)


Wrong! In the original text of Plutarch nowhere is mentioned explicitly 'dialect'. This is more a biased translation of some Phil-Hellenic scholars like Hammond or Errington. They invented such phrase in order to make the language of Epirus as one of the dialects of Greek. This goes against the mainstream opinion of ancient writers who acknowledged the language of Epirotic tribes as 'barbarian'. 




> Other writers, such as ..., describe them as Greeks.


However, this is a matter of modern interpretation of ancient texts. Many Greek nationalists pick up some vague quotes out of their real content in order to suit to their national agenda for promoting the Greekness of Epirus. 

Here is a citation I've got from a little research by Google:




> "Philip contracted an alliance with *Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians,* and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".
> 
> The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography, pg.409

----------


## iapetoc

zajaz Bullshit

Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans

Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus


ACCEPT IT 

*THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC*
*THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC*
the pelasgia is the Thera (island civilization, not the illyrian
Albanian nationalist must face the truth and stop bullshit
Pelasgic is an ancient civilization that gave many nation

IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE REST AND WHY EPIRUS OR CHAONIA IS ARCHEGONUS GREECE
*Epirotes are the Aeolian Branch of Pelasgian Greek Speaking*

if you remember the Makedonians where more understand by Aeolians than from south Doric
Aeolians Pelasgic Greek even today is consider barbaric cause they cut the a e o i and speak extremely fast
Epitotans and thessalians even today speak that way,

In epirus mt Pindus where the cadmeian-illyrian-phoenician people, and The greek IE speakers and were isolated due to rough terrain
But the colonisation and the kingdoms that were build created states 

Now i have to repeat again to understand it 
Greeks are pelasgian tribe
illyrians are pelasgian tribe
Thracians probably are pelasgian
etruscan are similar to pelasgian
Cretan - minoan is the most clear pelasgic culture
but with Pelasgic does not mean Illyrians
besides if you look where the pelasgic areas are mentioned you will reach today bulgaria (blagoevgrad)
Pelasgic and leleges are ancient cultures 
Leleges are the fathers of dorians locri and Makedonians
Pelasgic Aeolian are the father of thessalian and epirotan 
the only tribe that exist AND WAS PELASGIC ARE THE DRYOPES, CLEARLY IE TRIBE
oak tree in pelasgian is bala(nos) 
oak tree in IE is Dru

the pellai you mention is mt pellion
king pellias in Homer
Makedonian pellios (δεδιωκεται τοισ πελασοιν)
greek palios
what are you saying -> makedonian pellios as epirotan as greek
pellios palllios
what bullshit you say? clear Greek pelasgic 

*the fact you don't understand is that Illyrians were not the only pelasgic*

*But pelasgic is the wide Thyrrenian language
which is Illyria Hellas Etruria Troy Crete Phillistines and i beleive thracians*, i m sure about some aegean tribes but not sure for more inner north.
Pelasgic comes from pelag means flat and today pelago
By understanding that you will see that greeks are the south pelasgic,
and the IE as many say, simply greek belongs to IE as albanian but only by them selfs
the pelasgic language is something LAtin
spain speaks LAtin 
Italy speaks latin
France speak latin
same is the pelasgic,

*and plz Albanians Nationalist accept it, 
Epirotan spoke Aeolian pelasgian 
the fact that spoke pelasgian can put them in Greek -Illyrian-Cretan Etrurian family
besides the only ones that do not accept that Greeks are pelasgic are the albanians nationalist, why?

Glaukus hmmm Glayka the oawl Bird, the holy bird of Greeks
another prove that Illyrians are pelasgic similar the Greeks

*

----------


## Garrick

> zajaz Bullshit
> 
> Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans
> 
> Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
> Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus
> 
> 
> ACCEPT IT 
> ...


Iapetoc
What do you think about
the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims

*Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic*

he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?

----------


## how yes no 2

> Iapetoc
> What do you think about
> the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims
> 
> *Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic*
> 
> he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?


it makes sense if R1a is 11500 years old in Balkans and 3000-5000 in rest of Europe as shown by Klyosov...

in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons... 

what probably happened is that part of R1a strategically moved to north, obtained better war equipment spread throughout Euroasia, connected with original base in south Sibir and went down all the way to India and Egypt and also into Asia minor... 






> (b) There is *no justification in the results of a "Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1* ancient population *allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence* has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 2*0,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia*. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and *11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia)*.
> 
> (c) *Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe* have common ancestors who lived between* 3550 and 4750 years ago* (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
> 
> (d) There are t*wo different groups of Indian R1a1* haplotypes; *one shows a good match with the Russian Slavic R1a1 group, having a common ancestor several hundred years "younger"* than the Russian R1a common ancestor (*4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp*). This supports the idea that a *proto-Slavic migration to India* as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian literature) around *3600 ybp*. The other Indian R1a population is significantly older, with a common ancestor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated from South Siberia to South India.
> 
> (e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
> common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
> India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
> 350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.


http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

----------


## Neander

> In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity.


In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!




> It looks very greek to me.


The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.

Theatre is not greek sign.

----------


## Neander

> in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons...


You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.

Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.

----------


## how yes no 2

> You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.
> 
> Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.


I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
I am not saying that, this paper is:




> *Our estimated coalescence age of about 4.5 ky for haplogroups E-V13 and J-M12 in Europe (and their CIs) would also exclude a demographic expansion associated with the introduction of agriculture from Anatolia and would place this event at the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age, a period that saw strong demographic changes as clearly testiﬁed from archeological records* (Childe 1957; Piggott 1965; Kristiansen 1998). The arrangement of E-V13 (ﬁg. 2D) and J-M12 (not shown) frequency surfaces appears to *ﬁt the expectations for a range expansion in an already populated territory* (Klopfstein et al. 2006). Moreover, similarly to the results reported by Pericˇ ´ic et al. (2005) for E-M78 network a, the dispersion of E-V13 and J-M12 haplogroups seems to have mainly followed the river waterways connecting the southern Balkans to north-central Europe, a route that had already hastened by a factor 4-6 the spread of the Neolithic to the rest of the continent (Tringham 2000; Davison et al.
> 2006).


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

but you are right, that estimation might be wrong...
I was just checking this



> On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13 (Table 3) are consistent with a* late Mesolithic* time frame. The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya, Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately 9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28, suggest an *expansion time of approximately 10000 years ago.* I


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...tool=pmcentrez

so, my conclusion about spread of R1a from Balkan caused by E-V13 arriaval seems not to hold...

----------


## Neander

> I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
> I am not saying that, this paper is:


Well, we are not blind-minded, just to read a paper, and to believe that.

Ev13 is old here like it is said here:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

----------


## Neander

On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13
(Table 3) are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame.
The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material
culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears
some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.
60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
*9000 years ago*. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately *10 000 years*
ago.

----------


## how yes no 2

yes, I found it too as you see above..
as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....

----------


## Neander

> yes, I found it too as you see above..
> as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....


But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,

The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.

Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)

----------


## how yes no 2

> But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,
> The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.
> Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)


genetists are not so good with time estimates... and people often tend to see what they want to see...

hopefully, one day it will be possible to reconstruct exact paths and timeline of all major branches and subbranches and to map it to history events....
and do not think I have something against E-V13, E-V13 is as good as any haplogroup... Serbia has pretty large amount as well...

but today I read in another thread about spread of E-V13 into Europe 4000-4500 years bp and here I had a thought perhaps that is related to timing for start of expansion of R1a from Balkan that was indicated by Klyosov....
there was no bad intention... it just looked as possible good match between cause and consequence...

----------


## Elias2

> In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!
> 
> The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.
> 
> Theatre is not greek sign.


You need to be more clear, who are differnt people? 

And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.

The theatre is a very greek trademark. Illyrians were not greek, you are correct because if they were they wouldn't be called Illyrians. But that doesn't mean modern day albanians are Illyrians. There is no evidence outside of geographical area to suggest this. And if you just go by geography, Croatians, bosnians, and serbs have just as much right to call themselves Illyrians as albanians do.

----------


## iapetoc

Neander 

*with bullshit you can prove nothing*

1 Thessalian are the pure Greek speakers and remember that Graikos was born there,
Although I believe comes from the Pellasgic γρουσσα -γλωττα - γρετα (language), and the virb Γρεκω (Ι speak, i unterstand)

Now the Greeks you mentiooned are The Dripoes (Druid-Druop) who were R1a carriers and lived in Phthia
*who want it or Not Thessaly is the center of Greek IE language since Driopes lived there,* simply the IE and the pelasgic Greek unite to create the language,
Makedonians Epirotans are Greek-Pelasgic,
Berbarian doesnot mean the one who do not speak Greek But
Bark 
βαρκιζω virb means Bark -> the one who sounds like Dog's bark when he speak,
in a wide meaning non Greek speakers,

*2 about theaters* 
*
READ WHO WAS THESPIS AND WERE THE FIRST THEATER WERE BUILD< AND WERE THE FIRST PLAY WERE WRITTEN
I THINK IT IS TIME TO TELL US THAT ARISTOFANES AND EYRIPIDES ARE 
Illyrians or thracians
* 
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespis*


Cause I am sure that this is what is your next word,

with total deny simply you prove your cyclopean eye


Besides Modern Albanians do not Speak Pelasgic but more Romano-Celtic
Mire jam Clear Celtic Mire
or the Thracian MARI (godess MARA) which is considered slavonic?
the words you give me belongs mostly in ancient Illyrian
now if a connection exist that proves that albanians have connection with Pelasgic Not pelasgic people were albanians
Besides the Connection
Greek ΒΡΥΘ-Ω (doric Βρουτ-ω) Vruth Vrouth
Albanian Bret ( as you said before, i don't claim th correct but in post above you said it)
LEMNEAN PHOENICIAN BRUTAS (Brutas in etrurian Brutus in latin) 
so what is the difference why the lemnean can be read only in albanian? and not in raskian
simply cause you are a one eye nationalist Nazi

another 
Greek Βι-ωνω Vi-ono past ΕΒΙ-ΩΣΑ eviosa
Rascian past AVIS
LEMNEAN PELASGIAN AVILS
if exist in albanian language then you make the compare
cause I 'm satisfied that Raskian and lemnean can be connected

*BESIDES WE ARE NOT CERTAIN IF ILLYRIANS WERE PELASGIC AND SIMILARITY COMES FROM GREEK-PELASGIC COLONIZATION IN ILLYRIA (elements that left)
BUT WE CONNECT ILLYRIA WITH CADMUS SON, ILLYROS A FAR PAST BEFORE MYCENAE KING PELASGIAN WHO INVADE THERE as History wich you Deny (herodotus)
now if Hellenes reunite after the sea people destruction and manage to unite pelasgian tribes again what is your problem?*

cause you cannot accept Herodotus whenever you like
simply Herodotus gives the connection of Ill and Ell via Cadmus a phoenician King
as also Herodotus says that Makedonians came from the same place were dorians exist and karamos was an argean




*Zajaz
you make the same Mistake with Dejavu
the nation is Hellenes not Greeks

Greeks are the area from agrinio to athens and from corinth to Thessaly
THAT AREA IS GREECE*

*Hellenes is the nation of 4 Aeolic Doric Ionic Achaic* 
*it is not Greek republic But Hellenic republic
Greek in Greek language means either son of Graikos
EITHER THE VIRD ΓΡΙΚΩ - ΓΡΑΙΚΩ past ΕΓΡΙΚΗΣΑ 
means understand and speak 
dorric language Γρουσσα (Grico people)
now if ancient doric man asks, do you speak Greek, it should say Γρικας?? 
Greek is the area not the nation, understand that
The nation is Hellenes*



That is Greece area the area of Hellanas river
Peloponese Crete Makedonia Thessaly Epirus is Hellas

----------


## iapetoc

Garrick 
Pelasgian elements exist in Bulgarian language,
with the thracologist I speak we found enough
seems that Thracian has a small connection with Pelasgic,
now since exist in one south slavic probably eexists and in other
but it is difficult and risky to place south slavic language to pelasgic
pelasgic were more semitic-Anatolian-Phoenician language from the elements we found in Hommer and later
it seems that odrysse thracian have connection with Hettit Brygian and persian 
But the connection of south slavic with pelasgic is uncertain cause the elements are not that many in odryssee as also some other thracians, but it is more clear with Sappean who are close to phoenician,
in bulgaria they spend a lot of money in search for thracians,
But even they, are not that sure if Thracians were clear Slavic speakers, Pelasgic Hettit-Anatolian
it seems that every tribe had its own code, 
If you believe in listuistic then buy a good lexicon of etrurian-racian and Homeric and try to find similarities, similarites that connect similar meanings and sounds
like slavian *Yam* -*Yem* = eat 
in Greek is Θρεφομαι -Τρωω but has a virb Γευομαι *Yev*-omai which means I taste, i try the food's taste and taste is Γευσις Yev-sis
as you see the main Greek Word and Slavic is not the same, But a similar to eat the virb taste is same root, that is linguistic element
then is the hard to collect how ancient is that word in the language, which areas speak it,
cause that word is either imported or same rooted from an ancient common language


Now about Phaistus is logogram not Hieroglyph, a sign probably as today traffick signs
and it is more Anatolian Luwan-Hettit than Minoan,
probably a sign in merchants area for lydian people

----------


## Neander

> And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.


Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.

For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"

----------


## Zajaz

> THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
> THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
> THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
> THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
> ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
> CRETANS ARE PELASGIC


May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.

But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

So can you turn back in topic? Thnx

----------


## Elias2

> Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.
> 
> For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"


_"The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians, Persians, Medes, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans and Carthaginians. It, in fact, became a common term to refer to all foreigners. However in various occasions, the term was also used by Greeks, especially the Athenians, to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Epirotes, Eleans, Macedonians and Aeolic-speakers) in a pejorative and politically motivated manner.[3] "_
_
"The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17]Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the ArgiveEpidaurian lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys).[21]"

_Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.

----------


## Elias2

> The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just *Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks*. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?


Like what?

----------


## Zajaz

> Like what?


Archeological examinations bring up in light many cultural objects which were same for both people. It is generally accepted that Illyrians held the plain of Emathia into their direct control for centuries and thus their influence is deep rooted in Macedonia. I've seen many helmets used by Macedonian warriors and are similar with those used by Illyrian ones. In the fashion of wearing the mantle and arranging their hair, the Macedonians bore a great resemblance to the Illyrians (Strab. vii. p. 327).

----------


## Zajaz

> Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.


Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued. 

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians. 
Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian. 

The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.

----------


## iapetoc

> May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.
> 
> But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?
> 
> So can you turn back in topic? Thnx



that is the point, Homeric, toponyms, etc can be etymologist by pelasgic Albanian, pelasgic Greek, pelasgic Thracian, and IE language,
as an example I give you the Aspetos, toponym of a city that Elias2 wrote and neander find another meaning
aspetos IE (negative) Α-σπετω = un speech 
neander meanind aspetos = runs fast (in greek is no fast)
both are not pelagic although NEander make them pelasgic
un-speak 
un-speed 
no one is Greek- pelasgic or Albanian pelasgic but clear R1b or R1a 
(Germanic) IE, propably it is connected with the Druids (Driopes) that lived in south Thessaly and Phthia, and not to Ill or Ell pelasgic.
same is with homer, Homer spoke aeolian and ionian, ionian is considered clear anatolian-pelasgic and aeolian IE and pelasgic,

Zajaz the wrong approach is that you claim every Pelasgic ot thracian to Illyrian,
same happened by Greek nationalists who even today claim every land as Greece

every theory is wellcome, But every theory can have an answer,

Now lets see the names the toponyms etc

mt Olymp
Ηρακλειον Heraklia
Διον dion
Πυθειον
Αζορος
Πετρα
Μπαλλα Bala
Φυλακαι (σερβια)
Πυδνα
Αιγες
Πελλα
Αλορος
Λειβηθρα
Καρυα
Εδεσσα
Τυρισσα
Σανη
Θερμαι
Αλλαντεια
Ηρακλεια
Ιχναι
Κλιται
Βραγυλαι
Ιδομεναι
Αρναια
Αιανη
Αργος
Αρνισσα
Κελλαι
Βοκεροι
Αργιλος
Στιβερισσα - Στυβερα
Ορεστια 
Ελιμεια
Λεβαια
Πλουρινα (clear Semitic-Pelasgic)
Λυγκιστις Λυγκεας
Γκρετις Γκρετιστα 
Πελιον 
Χρυσονδυον 
etc
the Dexaroi Dessarete Greek Tribe and the Dessaroans Illyrian tribe
*Mt Νυμφαιο or as the local name it in purpose ΝΕΒΕ ΣΚΑ = NEVE SKA* 
Mt Τρικκλαριον (area Tricca(la) where makedonians lived in thessaly)
Βιτρινετσι -Βιδρονησι Brygian-Makedonian Bidra (water animal)
*Λυχνιτις Lychnitis -> Lin and Ohrid* also change n Lyncistis
In Macedonian and the other South Slavic languages, the name of the city is _Ohrid_ (Охрид). In Albanian, the city is known as _Ohër_ or _Ohri_. Historical names include the Latin *Lychnidus*[5] or the Greek names _Lychnidos_ (Λύχνιδος), _Ochrida_ (Οχρίδα, Ωχρίδα) and _Achrida_ (Αχρίδα), the latter two of which are still in modern usage.

Above and west the Lychnitis is the Echeleians which are considered Illyrians, although the name is connected with Greek Acheleians Αχελωοι.
What Illyrians, Cadmus son Created Illyrians and Ψadmus was Pelasgic, and cadmus Cretaed Greeks also
Atalante - Taulante
Echeleians - Achelleians



now lets see the upper makedonia
main states Orestias and Ellimeia,
population of Orestias ArcadoCypriot
population of Ellimeia Mycenean (achaic- which I believe is similar to Gek)
*that is why the before Argeans, Ellimeians worship god Eorda*
*Makedonian Αρδα Arida arda* 
sanshqrit Jorda
German Erda 
the IE name of 
Latin Tera 
East Thracian Sirris
*Greek koine Hera*
Arcadic Γεορδα - Γορδιος Δεσμος - Gordian knot
Probably Eordeans were R1 people
In modern Greek godess Arda has words after Hellenistic and not in Attic 
like αρδευσις -> irrigate

as you see zajaz Makedonians Argeians were Greeks, as also that 
*Katadesmoi or defixiones* were spells written on non-perishable material


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%...BB%CE%B1%CF%82

*Greek*

1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-] *[edit] English*

1. Of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, and of all other2. wo[men], widows and maidens, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust upon Makron* and3. [the] demons. And that only whenever I dig out and unroll and re-read this,4. [then] may they wed Dionysophon, but not before; and may he never wed any woman but me;5. and may [I] grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:6. Have pity on [Phil?]a*, dear demons, for I am Dagina* of all my dear ones and abandoned.7. But please keep this for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably8. but let me become happy and blessed.


THE ILLYRIANS YOU MENTION ARE IN THE BORDERS OF MAKEDONIA,
simply Pelasgic greek Arcadocypriot achaic and aeolian the Upper Makedonian 
simply Thettalian Doric and aeolian the argean Makedonia, simply thraco-Pelasgic the east Makedonia,


Makedonians Dynasty came from Doric Aiginion are Ishtiaiotis of Thessaly, and manage to Unite all Greek Pelasgic areas

*ZAJEZ 
read that carefully*
The *Dassaretae* (Greek: Δασσαρέται), or *Dexaroi*, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek[1][2] tribe of Epirus on the border with Illyria near Lake Ohrid.[3] They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians.[4] Theopompus writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. *The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people. Their cities were Pellion, Antipatrea, Chrysondyon, Gertous (or Gerous) and Creonion.*[5]
An Illyrian tribe of the same or similar name laid further north between the Dardani and the Ardiaei, which is often confused with that of the *Dassaretae* of the (Greek) Chaonian group.[6][7][8][9][10] This is confirmed by the fact, which Appian of Alexandria described in his _"Illyrian wars"_ and namely, according to the Greek mythology, Illyrius, the ancestor of the Illyrians, had a daughter, _Dassaro_, from whom sprang the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretae (or Dasaretii).[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi
*what Epirotans barbarian as Neander says,*
*EPIROTANS from Apeiros (Chaos-Chaonia)*
*WERE GREEK AND NOT ILLYRIAN* *Speaking*
simply when Christians slain Greeks, Illyrians inhabited Greek areas to replace the empty,
as with attica arbanites 1100 1200 AD after Byzantine 1rst and latin 2nd invitation. and the Normand invasion as the alliance of Serbs with Albanians against Epirus Despotate time dehellenized area, which today has only relicks of older Hellenes.


*Thank if you read it.*


Even Slavic Makedonians who want to change boarders mention Cadmus and Lychnitis
and respect the Aegean to them MAkedonia, Greek face of Makedonia to them, simply they dream of an utopian Makedonian state with 2-3 languages and churches, that is not possible,
that is why Greek accept the Geographical term Makedonia but not the Nationality and the relation with Ancient Makedonia, and names that state as Slavic Makedonia.
only Albanians deny it and say that Dorians were Illyrians MAkedonians are Illyrians and Epirotans are Illyrians, just for nationalistic reasons.

simply it is more easy to unite Greek and Albanians (except religion) than to unite Greeks and Turks
as is more easy to unite Fyrom with Bulgaria or Serbia than I2a Romania with Bulgaria.
so nationalists spread bullshit just in case they grow,


And about modern Albanians Have more Romano-celt R1b than R1a 
they are More Romans Than Anatolian,
*simply albanians are not more Pelasgic than Greeks,* 
Just Albanians pushed the Pelasgic issue that became Idealistic
and Greeks don't pushed it, cause it is believed as Understandably.
in fact the claim that Albanians are the origin Pelasgian is ridiculous 
What Would Cretans say who were the heart of Pelasgic.

----------


## iapetoc

Neander 
Ematheia is sandy, 
In fact there are areas with 85% sand 
sand is from 0,5 mm to 1,5 mm
coccometrical analysis in the soil gives from 40-70% sand and 10-15 Clay,
the fertility has to do with water and sea lavel, in Fact mountain Makedonia is not fertile at all due to pure minerals, and big Ca concentration, the bless is the the rivers and not the soil, cause of the betonit (coloidal Argilus) the soil keeps some water in surface, cause sand dont keep at all,
betonit is plant strangle in lands with high Ca, but sand help and the colloidal is not that strong, I know cause I m Phd Civil Hydraylic Engineer,
and I have been in Albania to make search for water plants in 1998 and 2004,
simply the Hydro plants Auth, after NATO demand, designed for river Devul (Δεβολης) today are a triger to corruption in Tirrana. you know the story,
*Believe me 4 rivers area without sand nowhere in the world*
so if you don't Believe me ask a civil Engineer in your country,
Ematheia Pieria Sindos Chalastra is full of sand,
in fact in analysis I made for river Αισωνας Πιερια sand reach 98% in the deep flux and 64% at the bangs in some points with 0,002-6 deviation

----------


## Elias2

> Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued. 
> 
> I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" *Epirotes because they were never such*. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that *Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.* 
> Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.


Actually Epirots were hellenes, as I discuessed with our other friend, and you both seem to want to connect genetics with culture which are two very differnt things. Being Hellenic back then had really no bearing on genetics and more of the way of living, which of course you know I hope.

----------


## Elias2

> I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such.


Are you joking? I'll just repost this;

_"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians",[15] as does Strabo.[16] Other writers, such as Herodotus,[17] Dionysius of Halicarnassus[18] Pausanias[19] and Eutropius,[20] describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive and Epidaurian[21] PlutarchPyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning_  lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys). mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King _unspeakable,_ _unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek).[22][23]"_




> I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.


If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?




> Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.


are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.
_
"The Molossian Aeacidae dynasty managed to create the first centralized state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon, in part against the common threat of Illyrian[7] and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias, niece of Arybbas of Epirus, married King Philip II of Macedon. She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great. On the death of Arybbas, Alexander the Molossian, uncle of Alexander the Great of Macedon, succeeded to the throne with the title King of Epirus.[8] raids,_"

It seems that the Illyrians were diffenatly not regarded as epirot or macedon, even by themselves.




> The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.


There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east? There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does. To be a hellenes it didn't matter what your DNA was (they didn't even know what that was), what matter is that you adopted the greek way of llife, which the epirots did, and so did the macedons. Therefore they were both hellenic people.

----------


## Zajaz

> If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?


I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land? 




> You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does.


You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences. 

Here I shall present a couple of more recent discoveries regarding cultural affinities of the Epirots:




> 'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. * Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli.* But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times *THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA*' (Jaques 1995:80/81)
> 
> *Bibliography:*
> 
> Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'





> are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.


We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples. I am going to present a well-informative text written by Britanic experts:




> Epirus
> 
> The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia. *To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian*. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.
> 
> His Family
> 
> *The only Epirotes whom the Greeks regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, royal house of the Molossians. Pyrrhus was a member of this family*. The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.
> 
> His Early Career
> ...





> There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east?


Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so. 




> There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.


Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.

----------


## iapetoc

> I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?


Actually that is almost true , Illyrians a major part of them are Pelasgic and 
Epirotans are Pelasgic Also, But Epirotans were Greeks
*YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU DENY THAT GREEKS ARE PELASGIC AND YOU ONLY ACCEPT THAT PELASGIC = ALBANIAN, WELL THAT IS MISTAKEN.*
the most original Pelasgic *if we can use that term* are minoan Cretan or eteo-Cretans

But as you see in my posts even in area of Ohrid Greek language was spoken,
*The colonisation has to do with Merchantise,* 
as an example I give you the colony of Phasis in Georgia, an alone city which was a Huge merchant area, In fact that city was Build by Greeks and was protected By all Colchians even after Christianity times,
*The Greeks Build colonies not only to dwell in some areas But mainly to push emporio (trade)* in other kingdoms with out the inner land taxes and fear of bandits,
in roman times it is estimated that 1 000 000 Greeks (wide historical Greece) lived aboard ships from Spain to Azotos and from Black Sea to Egypt,
the ship ruins in Kythera is a ship that could live more than 200 people, a living floating village,
In fact in Makedonia Greeks also send colonies to push merchant,
*Atheneans build colonies in the Heart of Makedonia, cities like Olynthos
and Ennea Dromoi just to trade minerals
* 
*now the Hellenization, 
ALTHOUGH YOU CALL ME UNHISTORICAL AND GO READ A BOOK AS YOU TOLD ME
I SEND YOU THIS*

The *Dassaretae* (Greek: Δασσαρέται), or *Dexaroi*, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek[1][2] tribe of Epirus on the border with Illyria near Lake Ohrid.[3] They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians.[4] Theopompus writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, *speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people.* Their cities were Pellion, Antipatrea, Chrysondyon, Gertous (or Gerous) and Creonion.[5]

*simply Chaonia from Chaon of Troy* 
*According to Strabo, the Chaonians (along with the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus*.[3] T*he IllyriansPeriplus of Pseudo-Scylax[4]* occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes.

ok I am uhistorical or the books I read are wrong,

Besides even Arian IF YOU EVER READ HIM GIVES THE CONNECTION OF UPPER MAKEDONIA WITH GREEKS,

Understand it Glaukias was an enemy of Makedonians that is why he mixed in Epirus, in order to change alliances of Epirus with Makedonia,
*Gkaukias and Alketas is political against Kassandros and not national 


And about Alexander was Argean 
Now if to you Argean or Spartan Or Cretan or Mollosean is Not Greek Cause is not From Area of Graikos the Greece , you are right,
Spartans Molloseans Cretans etc are not Greeks


THEN I AGREE WITH YOU 
ALEXANDER WAS NOT GREEK

 ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ WAS HELLENAS ELL

in fact the biggest among all Ελληνες**
Spartans Molossean Cretan etc**


**THE LANGUAGE OF ALEXANDER
*
*and remember Irish went to USA which officially language was English
Irish emigrants spoke english cause they were not the rulers,
Argeans were the rulers, why to change the language*
*HOW MANY KINGS CHANGE THE LANGUAGE OF PEOPLE,
MOST TIMES KINGS CHANGE LANGUAGE AND NOT THE PEOPLE*

*King Otto when came to Greece he learned Greek, he did not push people to learn German as he was
* 
The kings learn the people Language not the people

Simply a wrong example, the irish and the English,
cause it is more wise to kings change language and speak the Pella language, than the whole kingdom to change language
that arguement is not correct and drops to thrash can

*


The above is the Makedonian low class language 
Clear Hellenic.
so even in low class people spoke Hellenic

no scholar, no man, no God can change it
MAKEDONIANS LOW CLASS SPOKE HELLENIC 

THERE CAN NOT BE A BIGGER PROVE

*

----------


## Elias2

> I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?


Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.




> You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences.


You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture? 






> We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples.


ok, but the people did speak greek; "_The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers._"




> Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so.


What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want? It seems you do define people by genetics, which is one way to look at things but I don't see things that way. Your analogy is interesting, if you sub the irish for macedons and southern greeks as english, but they're both british arn't they? It was the british empire or the english empire? In Canada, if the Canadians want to be pariotic about their heritage, they fly the Union Jack (British Flag) and not the english or Irish flag. Then there is quebec lol




> Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.


Acutally they are classic professors who specialize in the time period and have gotten their PhD's, so they do indeed know what they are talking about.

It seems you take the position of genetic identification of peoples, which is a debunked theory. Northern French arn't genetically the same as southern french. Northern spanish are different then southern spanish. Northern italians/southern Italians. Northern albanians are diferent then southern albanians. The same can be said for every country around the globe. If it doesn't matter today why does it matter in ancient times?

If you want to discuss the ancient hellenes, which, I hope you agree with me here, is more of a cultural identification (ethos) and not a genetic label, then you have to aknowledge that epirots and macedons, dispite that they might of been genetically different from southern greeks, were hellenic people. I don't think its odd that there were illyrian elements either, they boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.

And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.

----------


## iapetoc

just a delete post

----------


## Neander

It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.

It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.

It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.

Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.

Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.

As for how they became Hellens I have told in another thread. Hellenic language was a deviation of Pelasgian, which is more akin to todays Albanian. Therefore, I said you, the balkan historian which doesnt know albanian language, is a Blind Historian.

Epirotes were not greeks, even if they had some theatres which you identify as greek architeture.

For example we know that all Civilization of todays Balkan (roads, solyters, TV, Radio, Computer), come from the west....

... but please!!!!!

We are not french, we are not english, we are not americans.

We are Balkan peoples. Even that we have computers, radio, TV, etc.

Don't mix civilization with ethny.

Clearly Zajaz has said that Epirotes were akin to Illyrians, because so say ancient writers. If you don't believe ancient writers, then, what you believe???

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## Zajaz

> Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.


Well...let for the sake of argument admit that Epirotes were Greeks and when Corinthians started colonization they were colonizing the land of any other city-state. Could you tell me to which city-state belong Epirus prior Corinthian expansion? N.G.L. Hammond who is one of the greatest supporters of Epirotes being Greeks is forced to accept that:



> Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, *Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra*, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially...


Tell me why is that oracle of Dodona received Hellenic influence from the Elean and Corinthian colonies if it was Hellenic from its beginning? This is a very telling fact that witnesses about its non-Greekness. 



> You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture?


I firmly stand for the culture (ethnicity) as primary criterion in determining the identity of one people. In culture we have to include all social traits that shape the inner identity of one people (customs, religion, the way of life, dress, architecture, etc). But before all, I base my opinion especially in the language they had spoken. Judging from what I've read for many years of my studies I can safely conclude that most of available sources says that Macedonian wasn't understood from Greeks. This goes also for the language of Epirotes. 



> What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want?


Don't you find as strange why Alexander the Phillhellene, though he claimed himself as a Greek, wasn't allowed to participate in Olympic games because he was a barbarian. He was permitted to join in the games only when he invented fictively a genealogy which allegedly consider him as sprung from a Greek hero. 



> hey boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.


Since when the formation of alliances determine the ethnic identity of one people? I may tell you the reverse side of the coin:



> The Epirotes were thus unexpectedly preserved: but so far from trying to retaliate on those who had wronged them, or expressing gratitude to those who had come to their relief, *they sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnanians to Queen Teuta, and made a treaty with the Illyrians, in virtue of which they engaged henceforth to co-operate with them and against the Achaean and Aetolian leagues.* All which proceedings showed conclusively the levity of their conduct towards men who had stood their friends, as well as an originally shortsighted policy in regard to their own interests.


As you can see, Epirotes sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnantias to Queen Teuta and signed a treaty with them to fight against Achean and Aetolian leagues. I think your claim that Epirotes were always allies of Greeks against Illyrians cannot sustain.




> And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.


The basic definition of being Illyrian should be the language. Illyrians were all of Western Balkan tribes who spoke akin dialects (of the same language) and share the same origin, culture and social organization. This doesn't mean either that Illyrian wasn't geographical definition because many tribes were tagged as Illyrian (by ancients) only because they were living within Illyria but in fact they were of Celtic origin.

----------


## Elias2

You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased. 


_"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli to bury their leaders.[1] Mycenean tombs present in the region indicate an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilization.[2][3] Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[4][5]_
_The Dorians invaded Greece from Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (circa 1100 BC-1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes had emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaonians of northwestern Epirus, the MolossiansThesprotians in the south.[6]"_ 



If I can be very blunt, there only place I see the word Illyria used when I read about Epirus is when they describe the baordering peoples.


I think its time we turn our attention onto Illyria and what that is about if we are talking about them. You say that epirots and macedons were Illyrian. Your main identifier is language, which I think is a poor thing to lean on since the Illyrian language is very uncertain because the lack of primary evidence (written/archeological). I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.

----------


## Elias2

> It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.
> 
> It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.
> 
> It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.
> 
> Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.
> 
> Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.
> ...


You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek? yes, are the traditional indicators of hellenic culture found in epirus (archeological evidence)? yes.

I believe ancient writers but when it comes to ancient politics you can't think of it as unbiased. I like to look at culture and archeological evidence for more unbiased opinions. You link illyrians with modern day albanians. Please say why in the thread I just opened named "Illyria".

----------


## Neander

> You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek?


Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian. Even when Glaukus raised Pyrrhus as his child, they talk illyrian to eachother.

But as Isokrati says, The hellenic is no more matter of ethniocity

So if you say Epirotes were greeks, you must say for all others, Illyrians, Thracians, Romans etc.

----------


## Zajaz

> You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased.


In fact, I was trying to convince you that ancient alliances tells nothing about the ethnic identity of one people. For this purpose, I cited Polybius's abstract to inform you that Epirotes made alliances even with Illyrians...not always with the Greeks as many believe. 




> I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.


It would be pleasure to contribute in that thread!

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## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus
*Pyrrhus* or *Pyrrhos* (Greek: Πύρρος, _Pyrros_; 319/318 BC—272 BC) was a Greek general and statesman of the Hellenistic era. He was king of the Greek tribe of Molossians, of the royal Aeacid house (from ca. 297 BC), and later he became King of Epirus (306-302, 297-272 BC) and Macedon (288-284, 273-272 BC). He was one of the strongest opponents of early Rome. Some of his battles, though successful, cost him heavy losses, from which the term "Pyrrhic victory" was coined.

Pyrrhus was the son of Aeacides and Phthia, a Thessalian woman, and a second cousin of Alexander the Great (via Alexander's mother, Olympias). Pyrrhus was only two years old when his father was dethroned, in 317 BC, his family taking refuge with Glaukias, king of the Taulantians, one of the largest Illyrian tribes. Pyrrhus was raised by Beroea, Glaukias's wife and a Molossian of the Aeacidae dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Glaukias
*Glaucias* (Greek: Γλαυκίας) was prince or king of the Taulanti, one of the Illyrian tribes. 
Glaucias is first mentioned as bringing a considerable force to the assistance of Cleitus of Dardania, another Illyrian prince, against Alexander the Great, in the battle of Pelium335 BC. They were, however, both defeated, and Cleitus was forced to take refuge within the Taulantian territories, whither Alexander did not pursue him, his attention being called elsewhere by the news of the revolt of Thebes. (Arrian, i. 5, 6.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleitus_of_Dardania
*Cleitus the Illyrian* (Greek: Κλείτος) was the grandson of Bardyllis. The ancient historian Arrian states that the chieftain Cleitus sacrificed three boys, three girls and three rams just before his battle with Alexander the Great.Cleitus and his Dardanians had occupied a Macedonian border fortress , Pelium just before he arrived but despite this and the aid of Glaucias of Taulanti they lost.

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## Elias2

> Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian.


_
"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands,"_

----------


## Neander

_



"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands,"


Who says that?? Herodotus or Wikipedia??_

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## DejaVu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(ancient_state)
Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli to bury their leaders. Mycenean tombs present in the region indicate an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilization. Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.

The Molossian Aeacidae dynasty managed to create the first centralized state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon, in part against the common threat of Illyrian raids, and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias, niece of Arybbas of Epirus, married King Philip II of Macedon. She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great. On the death of Arybbas, Alexander the Molossian, uncle of Alexander the Great of Macedon, succeeded to the throne with the title King of Epirus.

In antiquity, Epirus was settled by the same nomadic Hellenic tribes that went on to settle the rest of Greece. *Unlike most other Greeks of the time, who lived in or around* *city-states** such as* *Athens** or* *Sparta**, the* *Epirotes** lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of* *polis** of southern Greeks. Their region lay on the edge of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuries, it remained a* *frontier** area contested with the* *Illyrian** peoples of the Adriatic coast and interior.* However, Epirus had a far greater religious significance than might have been expected given its geographical remoteness, due to the presence of the shrine and oracle at Dodona - regarded as second only to the more famous oracle at Delphi.

The Epirotes, though apparently speakers of an epichoric Northwest Greek dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. *The 5th century BC Athenian historian* *Thucydides** describes them as "**barbarians**", as does* *Strabo**. Other writers, such as* *Dionysius of Halicarnassus*, *Pausanias** and* *Eutropius**, describe them as Greeks.* *Simon Hornblower** interprets the vague, and sometimes even antithetical, comments of Thucydides on the Epirotes as implying that they were neither completely "barbarian" nor completely Greek, but akin to the latter.* N.G.L. Hammond opines that the principal social structure of the Epirotes was the tribe and that they spoke a West-Greek dialect.
Plutarch mentions an interesting cultural element of the Epirotes regarding Achilles. In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning _unspeakable_, _unspeakably great_, in Homeric Greek).

----------


## Elias2

> _Who says that?? Herodotus or Wikipedia??_


Well if you are insinuating that when Herodotus described them as barbarians then they are emediatly Illyrian? What about the other Hellenic writers that define them Hellenes? do you just discard them because it doesn't suit you? And they did speak a north-western greek dialect, I have no idea where you thought they spoke Illyrian when there is no archeological evidence to support this, while there are plenty of primary evidence to describe them as hellenic.

I think this is more of a case of I see what I would like to see and not what is in front of me.

----------


## iapetoc

Well it seems 

that some read about Thukididis fanatic Ionian and Demosthenes,*
BUT NEVER READ THEOPOMPUS HEKATEUS OF MILETEUS AND PSEUDOSKYLLAX*

*First the Mollosian*



As you see Mycenean Culture,
or the Myceneans were illyrians also ..... (cause someone that makes Alexander Albanian can make them also)
A number of Mycenaean remains have been found[8][9] in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron river, and the Oracle of Zeus at Dodona.[1]

So Mollosean were Greeks



2 *the Chaonians*
lets see 
Epeirus - Apeirus -CHAONIA
in fact Epeirus means Chaonia

*now lets see the Chaonians*
According to Strabo, the Chaonians (along with the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] The Illyrians occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes.[4] The Illyrians and Chaonians appear to have had — at least at times — a confrontational relationship; Polybius recounts a devastating raid mounted in 230 BC by the Illyrians against Phoenice, the chief city of the Chaonians. The incident had major political ramifications. Many Italian traders who were in the town at the time of the sacking were killed or enslaved by the Illyrians, prompting the Roman Republic to launch the first of the two Illyrian Wars the following year.[5]

Other terms for office were _grammateus_ (Greek: Γραμματέυς, "secretary"), _demiourgoi_ (Greek: Δημιουργοί, "creators"), _hieromnemones_ (Greek: Ιερομνήμονες, "of the sacred memory") and _synarchontes_ (Greek: Συνάρχοντες, "co-rulers").

The Chaonians claimed that their royal house was of Trojan descent, asserting ancestry through the eponymous hero Chaon (Ancient Greek: Χάων) who gave his name to Chaonia. The stories are unclear as to whether he was the friend or the brother of Helenus, the son of Priam of Troy, but in either case, he accompanied him to the court of Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles who was credited with founding the city of Buthrotum

According to Hekateus of Miletues (600 BC) CHAONIANS AND DEXRI SPOKE GREEK 

the Illyrians 
*the only Illyrian Tribes that share land with Epeirus were Amantes and Bylliotes who Hellenized at time around 400-200 BC

The clear Illyria strarts above Chaonia

The Epirus at it most Glory times
*


and Zeus was born In Crete that why Europa maid In Crete
Myceneans were not Illyrians but Mess people (E-V13) 
and Pelasgic is similar to Ionian J2b similar to tosk and achaic is similar to gek similar to E-V13 

In fact Doric were pelasgic Thettalians 
*Illyrians and Greeks are after Pelasgic cultures
simply another Alliance who created its own culture and language and Greeks created another culture and Language*.
Cadmus sons and Pelasgic people first created Theba and after Illyria
Illyrians became satem due to nearby Thracians and Greeks stayed in centum,
Illyrians are connected with Messapic language and Greeks with Anatolians

----------


## Garrick

Iapetoc
Yes. Nationalism and fundamentalism tries against science, but fortunately science progresses.
It has a very interesting observation on the research Dienekes about haplogroups Arbres in Italy, where E is expressed but there is almost no J, also Dienekes gave another material on the time of origin specific populations in Balkans carriers of E haplogroup, both would make sense for this discussion about Epirotes.

----------


## Zajaz

> According to Hekateus of Miletues (600 BC) CHAONIANS AND DEXRI SPOKE GREEK


This doesn't hold any water because Hecateus of Miletues did not left any written account (it has been vanished in the course of centuries) but many old writers cited pieces of Hecateus to elaborate anything. I bet that Hecateus never said that Chaonians were Greeks or something like that. He just said that Dexari were one of north-eastern Chaonian sub-tribes. 




> the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes


Actually Ps-Scylas says nothing about any ethnic distinction between Illyrians and Chaones. The biggest error you celebrate is citing selective phrases that suits to your claim. 




> ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ' ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.
> 
> translation
> 
> CHAONES. AFTER the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day


As you see the only distinction if we may call, is geographical and not ethnical. Even Liburnians (whose Illyrian being is admitted unanimously by most of historians) are portrayed as 'distinct' from Illyria. Does this means that they were not Illyrians? 




> 22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the Illyrians live along beside the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island of Alkinoös.


But let's go some lines below. Ps-Scylax wrote as well:




> _33. AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city: and this is distant from sea 80 stades. And there is also upon the sea a fort and an enclosed harbour. From here Hellas begins to be continuous as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory, which is beside the river. And the coastal voyage of Ambrakia is of 120 stades._


It cannot be more clear than that. Hellas begins from Ambracia, which was the first Hellenic city. All of Epirus has been excluded from Hellas. 




> the Illyrians 
> the only Illyrian Tribes that share land with Epeirus were Amantes and Bylliotes who Hellenized at time around 400-200 BC


How do you come up with that conclusion? You're avoiding all the proofs we accumulated here that proves an Illyrian affiliation of the three main tribes of Epirus. If Molossians were at least related to Greeks, then explain me why Ps-Scylax differentiated them from Hellenes:




> ΑΜΒΡΑΚΙΑ. *Μετὰ δὲ Μολοττίαν* *Ἀμβρακία πό-
> λις Ἑλληνίς·*
> 
> _AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city_

----------


## iapetoc

> Iapetoc
> Yes. Nationalism and fundamentalism tries against science, but fortunately science progresses.
> It has a very interesting observation on the research Dienekes about haplogroups Arbres in Italy, where E is expressed but there is almost no J, also Dienekes gave another material on the time of origin specific populations in Balkans carriers of E haplogroup, both would make sense for this discussion about Epirotes.


Garrick what do you mean?

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick what do you mean?


Iapetoc
This about *Arbreshe haplogroups* is extremely important discovery that approaches the explanation of *where the Albanians could come in the recent past*.

Arbreshe emigrated to the Italy in 15th and 16th century.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html


Look at this table:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg

1) Haplogroup I

I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: *most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes.* Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that *the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade.* The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that *the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays.* The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. *Furthermore, I2a is still rare in*
*mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).*

Dienekes discovered that *I among Arbreshe is the Italian and that is not connected with the Balkan I2a* which led to the assumption that the *I2a once in the Albanian population was still less than today*.

Cit.

“The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that *the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast*; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) *their historical obscurity until the last millennium*, and (ii) *the paucity of native sea terms* and *Greek loanwords in Albanian*, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.”


2) Haplogroup J

The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%).
*The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.* Literature data on J2 indicate that most of the haplotypes included in the Balkan (B) cluster of the network (Figure 3) have an STR configuration consistent with the J2-M12 sub-clade (Di Giacomo et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2007). In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. *Furthermore, the Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) also completely lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes.* If we interpret our Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans five centuries ago than today.
Dienekes think that in recent times occurred Albanization Greeks because Arbreshe almost have no Haplogroup J(!) and most J carriers in the Balkans is among the Greeks. 

Cit.

"The *source of J2 is less clear*, and could be *either the Albanization of Greeks* (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or *remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times*. However, *modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b*, while *Anatolians belong to J2a*. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection."

Conclusion
Dienekes thinks that the *Albanians have only relatively recently come from a mountainous area and that this norteast Balkan*, might any *mountain part of Romania*.

This means that *Epirotes and others on the South Western Balkans are no Albanians*.

Dienekes at one another post arguments explained that he thinks *the Illyrians are not the ancestors of Albanians*.

----------


## DejaVu

*The thread is about Macedonians and not Illyrians.*

----------


## iapetoc

*Zajaz 
read PROVES*

*Bylliones*

_Bylliones_ (Greek,"_Βυλλίονες_") was an Illyrian tribe[24] They were affected by a partial cultural Hellenisation.[25]

^ _a_ _b_ _c_ _d_ The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 6: The Fourth Century BC by D. M. Lewis (Editor), John Boardman (Editor), Simon Hornblower (Editor), M. Ostwald (Editor), ISBN 0521233488, 1994,page 423, "Through contact with their Greek neighbors some Illyrian tribe became bilingual (Strabo Vii.7.8.Diglottoi) in particular the Bylliones and the Taulantian tribes close to Epidamnus"

*
what else you want

Chaonia was Greek Bylliones and amantes were illyrians
*

----------


## Zajaz

> *Zajaz 
> read PROVES*
> *what else you want Chaonia was Greek Bylliones and amantes were illyrians
> *


Let's take aside for a moment this issue which has been very discussed in recent pages of this read. Since our primary discussion is about Macedones, I'd like to ask you if you have any detailed info where and when is attested this Macedonian word:




> *Batra.* 
> Another possibly non-Makedonian word, found between other words beginning with the same first letter in Hysixio's manuscripts, *meaning most likely the house, the place of fire* same as the Greek word Estia.


I couldn't find anything concrete! Do you know where is exactly used this word in Hesychiu's lexicon?

----------


## iapetoc

ok 

your answer

Batra -> Bathra th as thought and Athra

Bathro 
is the foundation, the sacrifice ceremony of the rooster and also the family root
The patriarchical system deep root is batro βαθρο 
comes from deep, far beyond but also the root of the tree and the foundation
Athra 
A-nthrak-as is the coal for fire ανθρακας not burning
A-nthrak-is or ia is the hot ashes of fire place finshed burning, not burning
Thrak-ia is the burning red coals, today word is Carbun-o (Carbon)
Thrak-a is the object that you burn coals, you light Fire 
modern is turkish mangkal - Brazier

in Fact still you make the same mistake
cause the ancient Makedonian word could be *Phathra* 
In fact it is similar with today modern Greek *Photia* -> fire 

syn *Pha*ros -> lighthouse
Pha-thra the light that comes from fire


In which edition you find it?
cause the only official by Royal Danish academy is still to letter T and not Φ
ph= Φ
so probably you have not from royal Danish academy, then from where?

Estia is the godess that helps Pyr not to turn off,
Estia is also the warmness, the feeling of Gathering, the eat together, the area you barbeque,
BUT NOT FIRE.
Fire is
Pyr Πυρ
Photia Φωτια (fire for light)
Flox flame ΦλοΞ
Thraka etc (no flame fire and cinder and fire place)
Anthrax not burn carbon

Tzaki from Jestia (simmilar kallas language) fire place
Jestia is simmilar to ESTIA
as an example 
Jeste -> Zesti Ζεστη = warm to body temperature
Jeei-> Ζεει = hotter than body temperature Ουτος Ζεει = Ηe got Fever
Jei -Ζει (zi) = has body temperature - HE IS ALIVE (not cold)
if delete e Jestia -> Tza +ki modern fire place for woods (the structure)

Is it in royal Danish academy Lexicon?

in Fact Makedonian Language is a small connection from southern Greek to Thracian 
if south slavic is Thracian

----------


## Zajaz

> your answer
> Batra -> Bathra th as thought and Athra
> Bathro 
> is the foundation, the sacrifice ceremony of the rooster and also the family root The patriarchical system deep root is batro βαθρο 
> comes from deep, far beyond but also the root of the tree and the foundation
> Athra


Thank you very much for providing such correct information! Actually I knew that 'Bathra' meant something close to fire/sacrifice/light etc, but however I wasn't so sure. 



> in Fact still you make the same mistake
> cause the ancient Makedonian word could be *Phathra* 
> In fact it is similar with today modern Greek *Photia* -> fire


I saw this word for the first time in Wikipedia and I wanted to know much more about its etymology because it wasn't elaborated properly. I find as strange why now is deleted by the editors of Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...onian_language
...but the text was as following: 



> Batra. 
> Another possibly non-Makedonian word, found between other words beginning with the same first letter in Hysixio's manuscripts, meaning most likely the house, the place of fire same as the Greek word Estia.


Then I searched this word in many ancient Greek dictionaries but I couldn't find what I wish. 



> n which edition you find it?
> cause the only official by Royal Danish academy is still to letter T and not Φ
> ph= Φ
> so probably you have not from royal Danish academy, then from where?


I found in the following edition of Heychius's account. Its underlined with yellow color "βατρα"
http://books.google.com/books?id=fMM...%CE%B1&f=false

----------


## iapetoc

in 

http://books.google.com/books?id=fMM...%CE%B1&f=false

the word is Βατρα-χις not batra, possily someone forget the - or did not see it
the words for fire are -thra- athrak probably comes from far ancient atra or patra(rch) p-> V vatra, the family fire, The word Anthrax-kos is far ancient,
I don't know if comes from a pre-culture
If is Greek and became northern Balcanic
or if it is Thracian or Illyrian
But 
Pater = Father
Patrian Patran the traditional patriarchic (from fathers descend)
Bathra is the deep, the foundation, the root
(a)thra (atra) is synonym to fire

Cleopatra Κλεοπατρα (patriarchical Glory, The Glorius fathers or Father's Glory)
Patris (homeland country)

In homeric we see nostos
nostos nost-algia nost-emon νοστος νοσταλγια νοστιμον
nostos the return home, the memories of home, the wiiling to go back to child age in home
nost-algia algia from algos (=pain) the sentimental pain to go back
nost-emon emon(=mine) today tasty, but means, reminds me home food, my mom's food
n-ost- probaly is connected as en+est(ia) ->nest ->nost
nost is the will to return to nest
althouth some have connected with en+aust (in exile) German ost en+ost
I can not tell which is more correct
simply en+ost (aust) is more IE seems more correct in nostalgia and nostos (pain to return back)
en+est is more Greek and seems more correct in word nostemon (mother's food) Νοστιμον
caution tasty food has 2 words
Nostemon -> tasty as my mother's food
Ευγεστον Eygeston tasty, can be eaten, good taste (-Γε- probably Yem slavic eat or Armenian Hum taste, German Gesmack albanian shi*je*,, but we found it in far ancient as Geysis Γευσις (taste, sour salty sweet etc) so the connection could be far beyond even to PIE 



*Batra-chis* (the yellow mark) is the frog the bretkoce (female)
syn 
Pontic Greek Φορθακ-α female Forthak-a
Cretan Αφορθακος male Aforthakos
Φορθυξ -Φορθυγoς Forthyx-gos female
Βοθρυξ-γος Vothryx-gos female
Bothrakas male
etc

----------


## archaiocapilos

Iapetoc don't try to debate with Albanians on linguistic stuff they think that modern Albanian is closer to archaic Greek than modern Greek and they base their arguments on Greek and Latin loanwords now used in Albanian,in Indo-European types still preserved in it or simply in fake etymologies. They can't even understand that Albanian is a satem language while ancient Greek like modern are centum.

----------


## how yes no 2

> now about the bull 
> 
> I mentioned that cause 
> Bolos
> Bol 
> Bo
> Bolinthros
> same BOL 
> 
> ...


actually, there is word Vol/Vo in Serbia
it is about ox

while bull is "bik"
it's about being male or not male bull
distinction between V sign and 3-finger salute
look for more details at
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...536#post368536

----------


## Elias2

This is an interesting article on FYROM:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...-leave-country

----------


## DejaVu

*Who is Nassau William Senior???* 
http://www.offalyhistory.com/article...862/Page1.html








The Historic Map of Greece, printed by the Greek Parliament, which includes parts of today's Albania and Turkey, and also prints several toponyms in today's Macedonia in Greek language. 

The map is taken from a Greek irredentist site (enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada), which claims all these territories as "Greek". The site, among other things, calls for war to "reunite" Macedonian southern provinces with Greece.

While the Greek government keeps talking about the "expansionist propaganda of Macedonia against Greece", no one bothers to discuss the way Greece threats territorial matters. The map, printed in 2000 by the Parliament, has a legend saying "The Unification of Greece".

----------


## DejaVu

*The lion has always been a symbol of Macedonia and the Macedonians, the relation among all of the symbols concerning Alexander and Macedonia as perceived during the Medieval period "cannot be denied".*


*The coat of Alexander Macedonian is present in european tradition since 14th century. It is part of group ''nine worthy'' and it is shown in five manuscript. Most time it is present like golden lion on red platform-field.*

*Nine Worthies (Alexander the Great) - 14th Century*



*Nine Worthies (Alexander the Great)*


*Korenich Rolls (Macedonia) - 16th Century*


*Ohmucevic Rolls (Macedonia) - 17th Century*


*VMRO Symbol (Macedonia) - 20th Century*



*The first three are Christian kings, the second Pagan and the third Jewish kings.*


*Nine Worthies as females in which case the Pagan one's are Lucretia, Veturia and Virginia; Christian are Helena of Constantinople, Bridget of Sweden and Elizabeth of Hungary; and the Jewish are Esther, Judith and Jael.*


*Folios 2&3 Julius Caesar & Alexander the Great*

*From the book - The Slains Roll*






*Coats of Arms from Bavarian Library Armorial, 1530*

Konnig Allexander von Macedonien


Alexander Magnus


Alexander Magnus


Der macedonisschen Konig


Der Konig von macedonien


Alexander Magnus



*Take a look at the lion on the flag and the shield:*
It's a book from 1541 with poems.

This famous poem is known as "Alexandreis, sive Gesta Alexandri Magni" writen by Walter of Châtillon (also known as GAUTIER DE LILLE, GUALTERUS DE INSULIS, or GAUTIER DE CHATILLON, GUALTERUS DE CASTILLIONЕ) 

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?ti...r_of_Chatillon

He lived in the end of ХII till the first half of XIII century.

Here is more info about the book

http://books.google.com/books?id=kh4...age&q=&f=false

http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Ch.../gua_intr.html




http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypld...s=20&pos=7&e=w

The edition we see upper is dated 1541 published by Alexander Weissenhorn in the edition "Alexandreidos Galteri Poetae Clarissimi, libri decem"

----------


## DejaVu

The Literary Gazette and Journal of the Belles, Lettres, Art Sciences &c 1845 Page 102


The Literary Panorama Volume 2 Charles Taylor 1807 September page 1031



An introduction to heraldry: containing the origin and use of arms; rules for blazoning and marshalling coat armours; the English and Scottish regalia; a dictionary of heraldic terms; orders of knighthook, illustrated and explained; degrees of the nobility and gentry; tables of precedency, etc., titles and duties of great officers of state; and of the officers of the College of arms, etc., and a new chapter on heraldry as in conjunction with architecture ...

Hugh Clark, Thomas Wormull H. Washbourne, 1854 Page 2



*Coat of arms of Alexander the Great from 16th century* 

In the middle


First from left





Title: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien 
Date: unknown 
Creator: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien 
Description: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien 
Language: de-DE 
Format: image/jpeg 
Source: SLUB/Deutsche Fotothek 
Rights: Deutsche Fotothek 
Provider: Deutsche Fotothek ; Germany


Title: Alexander Magnus, Blatt 4v 
Date: 1540 
Creator: Richter, Regine (Fotograf) ; Alexander der Große, König von Mazedonien 
Description: Alexander Magnus, Blatt 4v 
Language: de-DE 
Format: image/jpeg 
Source: SLUB/Deutsche Fotothek 
Provider: Deutsche Fotothek ; Germany 
More 
Less 
Identifier: http://www.deutschefotothek.de/obj81067111.html 
Subject: Foto; Fotos 
Coverage: Dresden; SLUB 
Type: image


Ptolemy mourns at the tomb of Alexander
(c. 1430)
kb.nl


Alexander defeats King Porus in single combat
(c. 1430)
kb.nl


Scene, paying Homage to Gadifer of Epheson. Behind Gadifer are four men, including Alexander the Great
MS G.24 fol. 19v, Morgan Library


Alexander the Great- Scene, greeted by Fesonas
Morgan Library. MS G.24 fol. 69v


Alexander the Great- Scene, fighting Cassiel the Baudrain
MS G.24 fol. 88r., Morgan Library



Title: Oratio habita Norinbergae coram senatu principum & omnium ordinum Sacri Ro. imperii, pro expeditione in Turcos suscipienda, III. Cal. Decembr. M.D.XXII. 
Oratio Habita Norimbergae coram Senatu Principum & omniu[m] Ordinum Sacri Ro. Imperij, pro expeditione in Turcos suscipienda, III. Cal. Decembr. M.D.XXII. 
Date: [1522]; [1522] 
Creator: Ladislaus 
Language: la 
Format: [9] Bl. : Ill. (Holzschn.) ; 4 
Data provider: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek 
Provider: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek ; Germany 
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Identifier: bvb-id : BV022539395; oclc : 213511548; urn : urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb00013223-1; vd16 : VD16 M 20 
Publisher: [Nürnberg] : [Peypus] 
Type: Druck



Alexander defeats King Porus in single combat
(West Flanders; c. 1325-1335)
kb.nl



The battle between Alexander and Darius
(West Flanders; c. 1325-1335)
kb.nl


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies
The *Nine Worthies* are nine historical, scriptural, mythological or semi-legendary personages who were established in the Middle Ages as a set of heroes personifying the ideals of chivalry. All may loosely be termed "Princes", whether kings, rulers, sons of kings, dictators, or simple leaders. In French they are _Les Neuf Preux_, meaning "Nine Valiants",[1] which term gives a slightly more focussed idea of the sort of moral virtue they were deemed to represent so perfectly, that of soldierly courage and generalship. The study of the life of each would thus form a good education for the aspirant to chivalric status. In Italy they are _i Nove Prodi_.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/worthies.htm
*Arms of the Nine Worthies*

Sources: Hans Burgkmayr (1473-1531), a prominent engraver from Augsburg, who made a suite of Nine Worthies engravings in 1516 (HB). Barthélémy de Chasseneuz: _book_, 1586, Frankfurt (BC). Jerome de Bara, 1581 (JB). A 15th c. tapestry in Basel (B15). The tapestry suite at the Cloisters Museum, French ca. 1400 (NYC).

----------


## DejaVu

The origin of the* Gordon clan* in Scotland was not Gaelic. The Gordon clan is originally from Normandy, where their ancestors are said to have had large possessions. From the great antiquity of the race, many fabulous accounts have been given of the descent of the Gordons. *Some derive them from a city of Macedonia, called Gordonia (Close to modern day Gevgelija).* 

http://www.houseofgordon.com/HISTORY.html
http://bydand.orconhosting.net.nz/page3.htm

*Perseus' one son, Alexander,* was still a child when Perseus was conquered by the Romans, and after the triumph of Aemilius Paullus in 167 BC, was kept in custody at *Alba*, together with his father. He became a skillful toreutes, learned the Latin language, and became a public notary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba



*One ancient title for Scotland, was 'Albania'.*
The term derives from the Latin 'Alpine', meaning of course, 'high places'...etc, and was used commonly throughout the ancient world to describe mountainous regions.


*The favourite Scottish order of battle somewhat resembled the Macedonian phalanx.* Their infantry formed a compact body, armed with long spears, impenetrable even to the men-at-arms of the age, though well mounted, and arrayed in complete proof.
- Sir Walter Scott
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/scot...chapter15.html


*The alternative Scottish flag:*








*Page 83* 
of their ancient Country, destroyed by _Vespasian,_ as they al-
ledge.
He likewise confutes their Opinion of their being descended from
_Frisius,_ Son to _Clogio,_ King of _France,_ and that his Posterity paid a
Tribute of 260 Oxen to the French, as a Token of Homage, and
thinks it rather true, that the French derive their Origin from the
Freezlanders, according to _Beatus Rhenanus_ and _Adrianus Ju-_
_nius._
Then he attacks the Opinion of those who say, the _Frison's_ are
descended from _Grunius_ the _Trojan,_ the Builder of _Groningen_, and
therefore writ them _Phrysii,_ as nearer the Phryges their Progeni-
tors, and at last tells us his own Sentiments, that _Freso,_ the Foun-
der of their Nation, with his Brethren _Saxo_ and _Bruno_, came from
an Indian Province called _Benedicta Fresia ;_ where having served
under _Alexander_ the Great, and not daring to stay in the Coun-
try after his Death took shipping with what they could bring
off, and landing in this Country, called it _Fresia,_ after his own
Name.
" This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the
more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the
Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-
cepted, agree. *That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-*
*donian Army ;* and that *before they came into Germany*, *they*
*were called Macedonians* ; for this he quotes the German Chronicle, printed at Mentz, in *1482.* the Annals of Freezland, and others."
His next Proof for this is ancient Rhimes, Constant Tradition,
and the Universal Opinion of the _Frisons,_ who have entertained it
from Father to Son successively, and convey'd it to one another by
Rhimes, a Custom, says he, which the most prudent Nations have
made use of, as the readiest Preservative against Oblivion. He tells
us moreover, that all the _Freezland._ Historians he hath seen, give
their Suffrage this way.
As a further Proof of this, he alledges, That the _Frisons_ were
constantly great Lovers of Learning, and therefore could easily pre-
serve their Origin and Antiquities from Oblivion. He says also, that
_Freso,_ their Founder, was versed in all the Learning of the Greeks,
and erected a sort of Academies in many places, where Youth were
instructed in Learning, and the Art of War ; and that he erected
one particularly at _Stavren,_ near _Stavo's_ Temple, and placed a great
Library in the Temple it self.


*Page 84*
*The Works of the LEARNED,*
In the next place, he acquaints us, that both _Frison_ and _Saxon_
Historians agree as to _Saxo,_ and that the People of _Freezland,_
_Saxony_ and _Brunswick_ had formerly one and the same Language,
and form of Government.
Then he gives us an Account of the Arms of the _Saxons_ and
_Frisons,_ from the Heralds Books, and says, that when _Friso_ had
the Defence of the German Ocean committed to his Charge, _his_
_Arms were in a blue Field, three Silver Bars, oblique from the right_
_to the left, betwixt them 7 red Leaves of a Water Rose, 4 betwixt_
_the Dexter and the middle Bar, and 3 betwixt that and the Sinister._
These, says our Author, were the most ancient Arms of the _Frisons,_
and prove that they were used by their Princes, Dukes and Kings,
and that the 7 Leaves signified 7 Islands, into which _Freezland_ was
formerly divided. _Saxo's_ Coat, he tells us, was also a _blew Field,_
_divided in the middle by a cross Line, from the right to the left, under_
_the same, at the dexter Point, there was a Lion, and at the sinister_
_Point a Dragon, their Heads almost joined, and looking upon one_
_another, with a pleasant Aspect. In the upper part there was an_
_Eagle flying with expanded Wings, looking upon them both._ In this
place, he confutes _Crantzius,_ who says, that those are but New
Bearings, and that _Wittekind,_ Duke of _Saxony,_ who was overcome by
_Charlemagne,_ carried in his Ensigns a black Colt, but when he turn'd
Christian, changed it into a white one. He proves from _Methodius,_
who is many Centuries elder than _Whittikindus_, that the Saxons in
his time impressed a Lion upon their Coin. He observes, that
_Wittikindus_ was not King of the Saxons, but one of those twelve
Princes (or Great Men) that governed _Saxony_ by turns ; and there-
fore bore the Arms of the Country, and not his own. He also quotes
_Wittikind_ the Monk, who in his 1st Book of _Hatthagar_, D. of _Saxony,_
says, that when he encouraged his Men to Battle, _he took up the_
_Standard or Ensign (which they account Sacred) impressed with_
_a Lion and Dragon, and an Eagle hovering over them, by which he_
_would represent Fortitude and Prudence, and their Efficacy, and ex-_
_press constancy of Mind by motion of the Body._
In the rest of his Book he enquires after the Indian _Fresia,_ and
thinks it to be the _Pharrasii_ mentioned by _Curtius,_ beyond the _Ganges._
He pretends to trace _Freso's_ Genealogy, as far as _Shem,_ one of _Noah's_
Sons, and gives an Account of the Travels of _Freso_ and his Bre-
thren, c. all which is submitted to the Readers Censure, it being ap-
plicable to Antiquaries better than to any other fort of Men.
_ui bene conjecit Vatem bunc perhibebo optimum_.
erarbi



http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/c...angsaxeng.html

----------


## iapetoc

Oh my god, someone is drinking expired medicines, or radioactivity hurts mind,

it seems like Makedonians were Greek as Alexandros o Megas

But MC-Donaldians as Alexander Magnus came from planet Seirion or from Jupiter,

the first skopjie was probably in planet saturn

----------


## LeBrok

Looks like Alexander was a medieval knite.  :Confused:

----------


## Elias2

Looks like Macedons were scottish and german aswell  :Useless:

----------


## Antigone

Alba was the name Gaelic speakers gave to the former kingdom of the Picts. The term first appears in the writings of Ptolemy and later, Albion in latin texts and it originally referred to all of Britain, not only Scotland. Alba is ultimately based on the IE root for white. 

It wasn't until the Medieval period that the term Albania was used by Celto-Latin writers like Geoffrey of Monmouth, the term later passed into Middle English as Albany but was rarely used to refer to Scotland. Rather it is/was used mainly to refer to the Duchy of Albany, a peerage title bestowed on younger sons of the Scottish and British royal families. 

I don't understand how any of this can be connected with the modern Balkan Albania or FYROM though, just because there is a similarity in a name doesn't always mean there has to be a connection.

----------


## AndronikD

> Looks like Alexander was a medieval knite.





> like Macedons were scottish and german aswell


Looks like nothing new on south. 

The same old, same old lullaby Slav stories.  :Bored: 

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Except this dumb Slavs forgot to fake their genes so they can fit into the story.  :Useless: 

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik0...imov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...mov_ezer07.pdf

Again those damn Slavs spoke on their damned language when they should have not and where they should have not.  :Useless: 

http://www.lituanus.org/1981_1/81_1_05.htm

Damn Slavs, they can't even be placed in their proper homeland.  :Useless: 

No good slavs, no good for nothing not even as root of the word SCLAVUS. 
 :Useless: 
We made them (as this Fella's Curta and Simocata have well said) and they can't even be as gratefull as to listen to us. Ungratefull Slavs, damn dumb Slavs.  :Startled: 

Although when you look at etymological deductions of their southern neighbours you begin to wonder what is dumber?  :Shocked: 

CLUE: it's about PALEOLINGUISTICS stupid!  :Grin:

----------


## AndronikD

> Looks like Macedons were scottish and german aswell



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml 

looks like mycenaean Greeks were Slavs

----------


## iapetoc

well
seems like someone is still dreaming, an d changes everything,

modern
R1a could be today 
1) German 
2) Slavic
3) Turkish 

old R1a
1) Thracian
2) IE Greek 


there are 3 R1a imported in Europe,
1) is the ancient, we don't know if came from steppes but we suggest so,
But the case of Thracians seems that ancient R1a came from middle east, 
2) the case of Muceneans is still ubder discuss, but indicates to an ancient R1a although the case of R1b is not out of discuss,


As we have R1a Germanic branch
R1a slavic, 
a possible R1a Turkish,
a R1a thracian, 
MAYBE WE MAY HAVE A R1a GREEK

besides we Greeks we know that we are the sons of Pelasgians (NON IE) and the Driopes (IE) a arcado-cypriot E-V13 and a preexisted I in area (neolithic etc)

simply because we respect Slavic people,
that does not means that we are Slavs,
or we kneel to Slavic Nations, 
we were always a unique no family Nation,
but we are relatives with many from ancient times,

Simply we are the MaKedonians, 
and we are not the MC-Donaldians,

Besides with out recognising minorities Fyrom can't enter EU and NAto,
Fyrom today has many minorities,
the ex- communistic mafia wants to make all Bulgarians Serbs Albanians Greeks Aromani Turks Roma to be unite as fake Makedonians,
but Tito is dead, and the ex-closed behind curtain Yugoslavia is dead,
Truth every day goes more on light,
Even fyromians don't believe the story that Panslavic propaganda makers made in St Petersberg from the times of Great Peter (Petros o Megas)

History cannot change, no matter how many of you try.

Greatings from MAΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ to fake МАКЕДОНИЯ

Alexander knew Cyrillic before Cyrill  :Grin: 

 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

we are the ones that from 6th century Keep our languages and lands as far as we can 
1 from slavic invasion and expasionism,
2 from Turkish and Ottomans

in past we were occupied by Romans Turks Serbs Bulgarians Albanians but we still are here,
to resist every new intruder,
From Monasterion to Crete
and from Epirus to Trebizond

----------


## AndronikD

Instead of rewritting the lectures of the 7-th grade schoolbooks you could actually have a look at the links that I gave you and give me some arguments instead of stories. There are not new R1a in Macedonian territory or in Sebia or in Bulgaria. That's your problem.
R1a cannot be German, nor Turkic nor Greek. People that have German, Turkic or Greek culture and selfidentity can belong to R1a haplogroup. That cannnot describe R1a as German, Turkic or Greek since it is not characteristic for tribes that lived on that territory. So if you belong to R1a yes you probably have Macedonian or Thracian ancestry though you have Greek selfindentity which is ok don't worry :). 
About the Hellenic legacy in Greece. Jesus, you people are incredible. You claim Hellenic and Byzantine legacy at the same time though they are as exclusive cultures as one can imagine. As far as I can see you have legacy of your founding fathers which were influenced by the French revolution and later great influence by German panhellenism, which still causes trouble to you and to all neighbouring countries. Both are very far from what Hellenic and Byzintine cultures were about.
That's the two points I saw as worth commenting in your little story. The rest is a fairytale. But if it suits you, fine.

----------


## iapetoc

> Instead of rewritting the lectures of the 7-th grade schoolbooks you could actually have a look at the links that I gave you and give me some arguments instead of stories. There are not new R1a in Macedonian territory or in Sebia or in Bulgaria. That's your problem.
> R1a cannot be German, nor Turkic nor Greek. People that have German, Turkic or Greek culture and selfidentity can belong to R1a haplogroup. That cannnot describe R1a as German, Turkic or Greek since it is not characteristic for tribes that lived on that territory. So if you belong to R1a yes you probably have Macedonian or Thracian ancestry though you have Greek selfindentity which is ok don't worry :). 
> About the Hellenic legacy in Greece. Jesus, you people are incredible. You claim Hellenic and Byzantine legacy at the same time though they are as exclusive cultures as one can imagine. As far as I can see you have legacy of your founding fathers which were influenced by the French revolution and later great influence by German panhellenism, which still causes trouble to you and to all neighbouring countries. Both are very far from what Hellenic and Byzintine cultures were about.
> That's the two points I saw as worth commenting in your little story. The rest is a fairytale. But if it suits you, fine.


Byzantine was not Greek, But GrecoRoman
it was East Roman Empire, that by time bacame more Greek Speaking,
Byzantines Slain Greeks in many places, but Byzantine also kept (but change a lot) Greek language, and Greeks had some safety
Yes Christianity F.. up Greeks, the last Genocides was against Athens at 900 AD

the case of Rigas and the French revolution is not why Greeks revolt,

Greeks revolt many times Before Francais, to Turks and Venicians, 
Simply the French revolt, gave the dream that a revolt could succeed if well organised,
Greeks were preparing revolt for 50 Years from 1770AD until !821 
indeed we are not the exact man that our Fathers were, 
But many of us try to reach them.
At least we speak their Language, and some us are not christians but Pagans.

One Think is For SURE 

Hellenism was not Slavicism or MaC-Donaldialism,
Byzantine was Not Greek but Protect some Greek Literature, and some Greek people,


BUT LOOK AT YOU,
you were liberated By SERBS, 
YOU NEVER FIGHT IN WW1 the Turks
(Sandasky is Bulgarian Hero)

From 1870 your enemy is Greeks, cause they stop panslavism and mother Russia to expand to sea,

So who are you? 
you never fight against Serbs,
you Never fight against Bulgaria,
You never fight against Turks

your only Fight is with Greeks and Greek History, cause they are the only ones that stop your expansionism. 

well maybe we are equals of Ancient Greeks, but surely we not fake MaC-donaldians.

----------


## iapetoc

Besides Sclavini is another issue than Sklavos

search 
Sclavini a nation from the north, (scloveni, Sclovaki, sclavonia)

Σκλαβος = εις Κλωβο Sklavos means in cage, 
the first time that word is used is by Xenophon in Cyrus Anabasis, He describes how some Persian tribes used their slaves,
the had them in cages κλωβοι 
εις κλωβο -> 'σ κλαβο σκλαβος
similar word εγκλωβισμενος εν+κλωβος.

yes we lost most of our Dare leaders by Romans, yes we lost most of our Philosophers by Christians,
but in Achaia wars workers fight, so today Greek farmers are on the lose,
who knows, maybe some of them are sons of ex Great leaders.

----------


## iapetoc

Hahahahahahaha

Latest news show that Fyrom after a huge statue of Alexander that cost more than 20 000 000 E
and a Phillip 2 one, total estimation 35 000 000 $ 
are about to change name 

*They are going to name Skopje to Alexandreia* 
I wonder if they also claim that the city was Build Alexander 

and after that it is Dusan time 
they will start a total Fyromianization of Dusan as continuer of Alexander 
and they to rename him as Dusan of Macedonia !!!!!!!

just imagine Dusan of Alexandreia apogonus of Alexander!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe they also turn the name of Monastir to Boukafaleia

----------


## iapetoc

22 July 1943 

at least 100 men killed in Athens and unknown in Northern Greece 

The day Hitler 'gave' Greek Makedonia To bulgarians as Gift for Helping him 

the total Number of Killed is unestimated, 

we only know that in Riot in Athens at least 100 killed the first day

----------


## Dorianfinder

> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml 
> 
> looks like mycenaean Greeks were Slavs


R1a in the Balkans and especially northern Greece and Fyrom is not of the typical Slavic type. Dienekes explains the detail ...

----------


## AndronikD

> R1a in the Balkans and especially northern Greece and Fyrom is not of the typical Slavic type. Dienekes explains the detail ...


And what is there to explain? *It is not the same*. That's the explanation. 
Now if you want to say that he explains *WHY* it is not the same, that's a different matter.
I just hope that we do not end up as the undiscovered dorians - the jewel of the hellenic people.  :Grin:  We have allready heard similar stories from the Bulgarians.  :Laughing:

----------


## AndronikD

> 22 July 1943 
> 
> at least 100 men killed in Athens and unknown in Northern Greece 
> 
> The day Hitler 'gave' Greek Makedonia To bulgarians as Gift for Helping him 
> 
> the total Number of Killed is unestimated, 
> 
> we only know that in Riot in Athens at least 100 killed the first day


I don't know what do you want to imply? If you want to expose Vanco Mihajlov as a genuine Macedonian fighter you couldn't be more wrong. He has so much Macedonian blood on his hands that it makes me sick to speak about him. By the way he never had truly any governing power in Macedonia, except in Pirin Macedonia wich is still under Bulgarian rule.
Let me ask you a question your teachers probably never spoke to you about. Why , in gerater measure than the rest of Greece the colaborators were given governance in the region of Macedonia? Why do you speak to me of the great Greek sacrifices in WW2 (which were great indeed) when the same people that were fighting and suffering under the Germans were fighting and suffering for a long period afterwards under you right wing government. Who do you represent? The Greek fighters that were chased all over the world (and still are) or the Greek colaborators that have written you such a sweetsounding history?

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## AndronikD

> At least we speak their Language, and some us are not christians but Pagans.


No you speak Demotic, and even Demotic was too hard for the majority of the population back then.




> One Think is For SURE
> 
> Hellenism was not Slavicism or MaC-Donaldialism,
> Byzantine was Not Greek but Protect some Greek Literature, and some Greek people,


They wrote on koine. They had no intention nor did they protect anything Hellenic (note the Hellenic is not equal to Greek). Hellenism well that's a term which best suits the 18-th and 19-th century and it's a whole different story. 




> From 1870 your enemy is Greeks, cause they stop panslavism and mother Russia to expand to sea,
> 
> So who are you? 
> you never fight against Serbs,
> you Never fight against Bulgaria,
> You never fight against Turks
> 
> your only Fight is with Greeks and Greek History, cause they are the only ones that stop your expansionism. 
> 
> well maybe we are equals of Ancient Greeks, but surely we not fake MaC-donaldians.


 utter ignorance. If it wasn't for Russia in the 1870-1912 period you would have been what you should have always been proper Hellada. Read their diplomatic correspondance from 1902-1903 for example (it is publushed dont worry) and you will find many Macedonians (You complained that there weren't many in that period don't you???)

Since I hate repeating myself I will point you for further reading:
about the Macedonian rebelion from 1689 - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 173
about the Greek "liberation" of Macedonia - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 172

----------


## Dorianfinder

> And what is there to explain? *It is not the same*. That's the explanation. 
> Now if you want to say that he explains *WHY* it is not the same, that's a different matter.
> I just hope that we do not end up as the undiscovered dorians - the jewel of the hellenic people.  We have allready heard similar stories from the Bulgarians.


 In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of *Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3*. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins. 

The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs. 

Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. *The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. 
*
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html

----------


## Besir Bajrami

*
... and what about ancient Macedonia ?
*

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...bcdeead&type=1
__________________________________________________

----------


## Sile

> *
> ... and what about ancient Macedonia ?
> *
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...bcdeead&type=1
> __________________________________________________



when did ancient end ...............yesterday or before Christ or something else

----------


## LeBrok

> In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of *Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3*. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins. 
> 
> The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs. 
> 
> Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. *The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. 
> *
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html


I find it very interesting, thanks for the info. 
Maybe Maciamo will find time to do maps for different R1a clads. Can't wait.

----------


## Besir Bajrami (2)

> The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. 
> [/B]
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11...group-r1a.html


*That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.*

----------


## Elias2

> *That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.*


No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.

----------


## zanipolo

> No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.



sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.

If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.

Also, religion plays no part in DNA

----------


## Elias2

> sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.
> 
> If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
> The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.
> 
> Also, religion plays no part in DNA


Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.

And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.

----------


## zanipolo

> Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.
> 
> And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.


can you !!

you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this

----------


## Elias2

> can you !!
> 
> you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this


I said Bulgarians not bulgars;

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

----------


## AndronikD

> In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of *Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3*. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.


Yes generally that is that, though the diversity of R1A1A7 is better indicator of its age.





> The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.


The question is what is the frequency of r1a1a7 amongst r1a bearers on the Blakans and the problem with the "older" R1a bearers such as Mycenians among others, for example.




> Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong,


Well that is what the discourse is about on this thread for the whole time, and no matter how proven it seems to be some people just repeat it again and again and again because it suits them so.




> just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong.


Markedly different - of course not. In terms of the genetics Macedonians are different from the Greeks (ok let's say southern Greeks or some Greeks if that is to your satisfaction) but that does not mean that some of them are less or more worthy. (many people seem to draw such conclusions).





> *The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. 
> *


So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.

----------


## zanipolo

> So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.


Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav. 
There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea


IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.

----------


## Elias2

> So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.


Arabic was adopted on a very large scale in the middles ages, but not every country today who speaks arabic are arabs.

Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.

----------


## Yetos

well you all make this debate interesting, 

Lets read something about History,

Spartans when attack Olymp and Atheneans also we read that were massacre by bows, 
Bow tecniks were known to 2 areas of Ancient Greece and 1 relative to Greeks, 
Bow where known to Cretans and to Pelasgians, Alexander Bowman named Cretan archers, 
Boeotians are mentioned that came from Crete 

the Other race is Aeolians, Aeolians learn the bow tecnik by Pelasgians, 
Myrmidons had great Bowmans, 
we Know that Philoktetes Odyseus etc were not Myceneans 
and Godess ARtemis and had great influence in minor Asian Greeks were Pelasgians used to Lived, 

the 3rd Relative to Greeks is Thracians, 
Mygdonians especially and the old Pieri
Orpheus was Pieri Thracian famous Bowman 

The Spear was not a Makedonian tactic, it was imported later by Phillip 

So the connection of army skills of Ancient Makedonians lead us to Crete, Thessaly and EPirus and south Makedonia were AEolians and Pelasgians lived and to THracians, 

But which Thracians? 

By History we find a bond of Makedonians with Bryges,
Mygdonians were Bryges, 

by watching Makedonian Bow we find it different from Mycenean Bow, very close to Cretan Bow, and smaller than the Thracian Bow, 
far away from the Persian bow,

----------


## LeBrok

Interesting, welcome to Eupedia Yetos. Can you post pictures of different bow from different cultures? It would be interesting to see what other bows match Makedonian bow closest.

----------


## Elias2

24 pages of over analysis of what the ancient macedons were, when its actually quite clear.

Bronze age Mycenaean Greece saw greeks confined to the peleponesus, attica, thessaly, and some islands. They were centred amoung large palace complexes like Mycenae, Pylos, and Thebes. Minoan Crete didn't speak Greek, they spoke an undecifered language written in Linear A. 

Looking an homer's Iliad, we have a good geographical description of who lives where, and the people that live around the Axius (Vardar) River are the Paeonians, who in homer's Iliad, sided with the Trojans. 

After the destruction of every near eastern civilization by some undetermined force save for Egypt, Mycenae Greeks started to spead out all over the Aegean sea. They went north into the lower Axius river basin, into epirus, eastward into Ionia and Cyprus. This historical period is called the "dark ages", starting around 1200 BC.

The Mycenean greeks that ventured north would be the foundation of the Macedon kingdom some centuries later, organised by the Argead dynasty.

Ancient Macedonians are not some mysterious people, they did not come from outer space, we have ample findings and documentation about them. What has changed though is that a former yugoslav state has been trying to distort reality and history through nationalism.

----------


## AndronikD

> Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav. 
> There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
> Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea


There are more problems than solutions in what is now known as "the spread of Slavic languages". Consider this for example:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48903516/T...rin-Curta-2004

Or the problem that Slavic languages and Baltic have the most conservative grammar of all IE languages but Old Indic and Old Iranian.

The problems exist only for those who understand Slavic, unfortunately most of the Slavic "historians" don't understand a word of it.




> IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.


The only thing that we can know for sure is that ancient Macedonians were not Hellens (there were no Greeks at that time). About who the ancient Macedonians were and what was their culture no one can say much for sure, at least now. However some presumptions can be established with a great level of credibility. One is that they certainly were not extinct since they were not whales nad there were no whalers back then :). 
About ancient DNA and how it is established you can look for the Myceneans on this forum.

----------


## AndronikD

> Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.


There is something that is called argument and there is something that is called wishfull thinking.
Take this for example:
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com...theast-europe/

or this:

http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

For *Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled* to be true yu need to refutate this people i.e. to refutate their methods or the way they use their methods. Telling a story is not sufficient nor is it an analysis as you like to name it.

----------


## Yetos

the Late PIE gives a well known family, 


The Greco-Aryan 
Hellenic language is part of it, 

ancient Makedonians according History belong to the Thessalian family of Balkan Nations, 
But they are also connected whith Thracians, Brygian Branch, and Epirotans 
Ancient Makedonians worship oak tree Like Epirotans, 

Now about Genneticks, the more R1a is studied the more we know, 
but until today, M17/M198 possitive is much lower in Greece Norway and south Italy, Minor Asia and west Iranic pop , Than in the traditional Slavic R1a with a 1/(4-5) and the Turkish-Mongols (4-5)/1
the History as is writtten, gives clear that Makedonians is a mix of Cretans Thettalians and Thracians, a connection with Illyrians exist especially in Upper Makedonia (west)
Archaiology proves the same, 
Linguistic proves the same, etc 

Personally for me it is clear who were ancient Makedonians, 
the problem of modern times is different,


to be more specific, 
Hellenik language is destroyed after romano-Celtic and drop to poor modern Greek, 
elder Hellenic especially Hesiodic has form that exist only in Avestan and sanshqrit,

it is considered the more rich IE language, 
just think that past had 4 forms as avestan and was constructed the same form,

----------


## razor

There is an interesting parallel (consciousness-wise not genes wise) between the ancient Macedonians and Greeks and the more recent Manchus and Han Chinese.

----------


## Petros Houhoulis

Well, I am afraid that the DNA analysis cannot help with Ancient Macedonia since there is little or no DNA sample analysed for these people. We must rely upon history, linguistics and archaeology.

According to history and archaeology, Macedonia begins around the 7th century B.C. when a group of shepherds moves from the (later upper Macedonian) region of Orestis, follows the Aliakmon gorge and takes over Pieria - by evicting the "wild Pierians" from the land...

The conquests continue by the expulsion and assimilation of scores of Brygians (who emigrate to Frygia in Asia Minor) Paeonians and other "Barbarians", a significant portion of them being classified as THRACIANS...

The Macedonians assimilated a large number of foreign people by imposing their own language upon them - something that would give conflicting DNA results, if they ever come forward from ANCIENT skeletons. Nevertheless, what was their language?

Well, the existing evidence points out to two different branches of Greek, the one being the North-Western Dorian (the invaders from Orestis plus the Epirotans who were classified as "Macedonians" - The invading clan itself, and the Thessalian element coming from the South. The onomastic analysis of the names of the soldiers of Alexander the Great (already compliled by 19th century German historians) shows some 80% Greek, 5% Illyrian and 15% undetermined. This 15% is gradually turning into "weird Greek" over the last century. Nevertheless, where did that Illyrian comes from?

The Lyncestians were Illyrians. That is what is the claim against the grandmother of Alexander the Great (she spoke no word of Greek) and some other references to Lyncestians. Interestingly, the Lyncestians were often allied with the Illyrians in their claim to the throne of Macedonia: When Aeropus claimed the throne, he did so because Bardyllis supported him. This can be explained by the linguistic bond.

Several of those Thracians who were assimilated (most of the Paeonians) were certainly not Greek. The very few samples of their language point to a Satem language related to the Baltic languages. Nevertheless, they were certainly not Slavs.

The Macedonian royal court was 100% Greek, with archaic (Homeric) institutions and plenty of "Barbarian" subjects who were gradually getting assimilated. When they first appeared in the Olympics (Alexander I) they were opposed by other contestants, and (since it was their first attempt at the Olympics) they had to prove their Greekness. They were asked of their origin, responded that they were from Argos (Orestikon, in Orestis) and then the Hellanodikai left the Argeads (of the Peloponesse) to sort it out. Argeads and Macedonians conferred and decided that the Macedonian royal family was descending from the old kings of Argos who were expelled. In reality the Argeads were expelled from Macedonia some centuries earlier (much like all of the Dorians, and according to Herodotus) and of course they kept their Dorian names (there were over 100 locations named Argos all over Greece, and a mythical monster as well) much like the Bottians were expelled from the Voion mountain in Macedonia by the Macedonians, and went to live in Boeotia, while the mount Olympus gave its' name to the Olympics far south in Elis of the Peloponesse...

All other characteristics of Ancient Macedonian, including toponyms, calendar e.t.c. put it in the context of Dorian. Maybe though Dorian itself whould have been put in context of Macedonian since the Dorians used to be called Makednoi and to live in Macedonia, according to Herodotus again...

The Slavs originated in Ukraine. Their languages have common terms for everything that is native in Ukraine (lowlands, rivers, no sea) but different (and often borrowed) terms for anything not present in the most of Ukraine (mountains, sea)

Those Slavs invaded Macedonia only during the Middle Age, destroyed all urban settlements that fell in their hands and expelled plenty of Macedonians, mostly to Thrace.

Of course, as Jared Diamond points out, in order for a population to be totally annihilated, in mass scale, the victim should have no knowledge of agriculture while the victor should have knowledge of agriculture, as it happened in Africa with the agricultural revolution from the western part towards all directions, the Korean invasion of Japan and the modern colonization of the Americas and Oceania. The most of the archaic Greeks arrived from the Middle East with the knowledge of agriculture in their baggage, and they have never been repulsed ever since. Several Northern R1a-R1b people invaded and conquered Greece (and the Balkans in general), like the Dorians, but none was able to displace the indigenous population - but only to impose their IndoEuropean language upon them - accepting some of the losers vocabulary. In cultural terms, some of those R1a and/or R1b are the Greeks, while the Middle Easterners (who are more numerous) are not culturally Greeks. Herodotus pointed that out very well when he classified the Dorians as Greeks and the Athenians as Pelasgians (although he was oversimplifying the situation)

The question of whether the IndoEuropean Ancient Greeks were R1a or R1b (or a combination of both) is the only question to be resolved. Ironically, the original Greeks might have been R1a who turned Centurm while the R1a who supposedly migrated from the Balkans to Eastern Europe developed their Satem language along the way (starting from Thrace) although it would make by far more sense to suggest that the R1a presence in Greece is a remnant of the Thracians, and that Macedonia was much better defended from later attacks from the Roman empire - and the climate was less continental and more Mediterranean, with the relevant yields - than the Balkans north of it, allowing by far more R1a to be preserved there than elsewhere...

That is of course until we get really ancient DNA in large numbers...

----------


## Besir Bajrami

> No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.


No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).

Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1f8bcdeead

----------


## Elias2

> No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).
> 
> Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1f8bcdeead


\

Barbarians were people who did not speak greek. Athenians and other "high" status greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. If you are implying Macedonians (ancient) did not speak greek I think you lie to yourself.

I sence again that you imply albanian decent from Illyrians, there is no continuation, I'm sorry. Albanian started to appear and were recorded in the middel ages, not before. 

Just another nationalist.

----------


## Taranis

I have moved the posts regarding Albanians into this separate thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...C-Macedonians)

Also, let me issue a warning:* the next one to post about Albanians in this Macedonian thread gets a real infraction.*  :Evil Angry:

----------


## Besir Bajrami

Than It will be much worst if someone post about the greeks in the Macedonian thread I think !
Although, Albanians and Greeks are certainly connected with the ancient Macedonians, anyway, I agree whith Taranis because it should not divert the topic to the lack of information placed on the ORIGIN of the Albanians and Greeks

Everything what I've tried to post here, as a subject was the name Macedonians, and now I will try again (I hope that administrators will react if someone will try again to deviate the topic)
+ 
1. Natural history - Di Gaius Plinius Secundus,-Lodovico Domenichi-1573
2. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum- Ad Haec ...
3. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum Ad Haec ...
4. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum Ad Haec ...
5. Novum lexicon geographicum - Pagina 159
6. Debora ("us" is latin suffix)- Dibra was mention by Plini - Novum lexicon geographicum? - Pagina 159 - Filippo Ferrari - 1697
7. D. Paulus apostulus in mari, quod nunc Venetus sinus dicitur, naufragus, et ...-pag.CLXXXVII



+
Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future
H. Brailsford
... of the races wich inhabit Macedonia today only the Albanians have any claim to be autochtonus


+


+


+



The genesis of the earth and of man, a critical examination of passages in ... By Edward William Lane, Reginald Stuart Poole


+


...
Can I proceed to post these kind of informations what are related to ancient Macedonians ?!
(because the topic is about ancient Macedonians)

----------


## DejaVu

_The book entitled "Ancient Greek and other Ancient Testimonies about the Unique Ethnic Distinctiveness of the Ancient Macedonians" contains testimony from more than fifty Greek and other ancient authors who clearly testified that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks!_ 

*Some of these authors quoted are:*
Arrian, Appian, Dexsipus, Demosthenes, Dicearhus, Caliphintes Dionysius, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Dio Chrysostom, Diodor of Sicily, Dio Cassius, Eutropius, Eusebius of Caesarea, Aemolius Sura, Aeschines, Isocrates, Zosimus, Isidore of Seville, Johannes Malalaa, Flavius Josephus, Justin, Cicero, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Herodotus, Homer, Plutarch, Pausanias, Polybius, Claeneas, Claudianus, Clement of Alexandria, Marcus Veleus Paterculus, Cornelius Nepo, Praxagoras, Pseudo Scylax, Pseudo Scymnus and others.

_Authentic quotes from the works of these authors are given along with this author’s own comments._

----------


## DejaVu

*Page 83* 
of their ancient Country, destroyed by _Vespasian,_ as they al-
ledge.
He likewise confutes their Opinion of their being descended from
_Frisius,_ Son to _Clogio,_ King of _France,_ and that his Posterity paid a
Tribute of 260 Oxen to the French, as a Token of Homage, and
thinks it rather true, that the French derive their Origin from the
Freezlanders, according to _Beatus Rhenanus_ and _Adrianus Ju-_
_nius._
Then he attacks the Opinion of those who say, the _Frison's_ are
descended from _Grunius_ the _Trojan,_ the Builder of _Groningen_, and
therefore writ them _Phrysii,_ as nearer the Phryges their Progeni-
tors, and at last tells us his own Sentiments, that _Freso,_ the Foun-
der of their Nation, with his Brethren _Saxo_ and _Bruno_, came from
an Indian Province called _Benedicta Fresia ;_ where having served
under _Alexander_ the Great, and not daring to stay in the Coun-
try after his Death took shipping with what they could bring
off, and landing in this Country, called it _Fresia,_ after his own
Name.
" This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the
more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the
Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-
cepted, agree. *That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-*
*donian Army ;* and that *before they came into Germany*, *they*
*were called Macedonians* ; for this he quotes the German Chronicle, printed at Mentz, in *1482.* the Annals of Freezland, and others."
His next Proof for this is ancient Rhimes, Constant Tradition,
and the Universal Opinion of the _Frisons,_ who have entertained it
from Father to Son successively, and convey'd it to one another by
Rhimes, a Custom, says he, which the most prudent Nations have
made use of, as the readiest Preservative against Oblivion. He tells
us moreover, that all the _Freezland._ Historians he hath seen, give
their Suffrage this way.
As a further Proof of this, he alledges, That the _Frisons_ were
constantly great Lovers of Learning, and therefore could easily pre-
serve their Origin and Antiquities from Oblivion. He says also, that
_Freso,_ their Founder, was versed in all the Learning of the Greeks,
and erected a sort of Academies in many places, where Youth were
instructed in Learning, and the Art of War ; and that he erected
one particularly at _Stavren,_ near _Stavo's_ Temple, and placed a great
Library in the Temple it self.


*Page 84*
*The Works of the LEARNED,*
In the next place, he acquaints us, that both _Frison_ and _Saxon_
Historians agree as to _Saxo,_ and that the People of _Freezland,_
_Saxony_ and _Brunswick_ had formerly one and the same Language,
and form of Government.
Then he gives us an Account of the Arms of the _Saxons_ and
_Frisons,_ from the Heralds Books, and says, that when _Friso_ had
the Defence of the German Ocean committed to his Charge, _his_
_Arms were in a blue Field, three Silver Bars, oblique from the right_
_to the left, betwixt them 7 red Leaves of a Water Rose, 4 betwixt_
_the Dexter and the middle Bar, and 3 betwixt that and the Sinister._
These, says our Author, were the most ancient Arms of the _Frisons,_
and prove that they were used by their Princes, Dukes and Kings,
and that the 7 Leaves signified 7 Islands, into which _Freezland_ was
formerly divided. _Saxo's_ Coat, he tells us, was also a _blew Field,_
_divided in the middle by a cross Line, from the right to the left, under_
_the same, at the dexter Point, there was a Lion, and at the sinister_
_Point a Dragon, their Heads almost joined, and looking upon one_
_another, with a pleasant Aspect. In the upper part there was an_
_Eagle flying with expanded Wings, looking upon them both._ In this
place, he confutes _Crantzius,_ who says, that those are but New
Bearings, and that _Wittekind,_ Duke of _Saxony,_ who was overcome by
_Charlemagne,_ carried in his Ensigns a black Colt, but when he turn'd
Christian, changed it into a white one. He proves from _Methodius,_
who is many Centuries elder than _Whittikindus_, that the Saxons in
his time impressed a Lion upon their Coin. He observes, that
_Wittikindus_ was not King of the Saxons, but one of those twelve
Princes (or Great Men) that governed _Saxony_ by turns ; and there-
fore bore the Arms of the Country, and not his own. He also quotes
_Wittikind_ the Monk, who in his 1st Book of _Hatthagar_, D. of _Saxony,_
says, that when he encouraged his Men to Battle, _he took up the_
_Standard or Ensign (which they account Sacred) impressed with_
_a Lion and Dragon, and an Eagle hovering over them, by which he_
_would represent Fortitude and Prudence, and their Efficacy, and ex-_
_press constancy of Mind by motion of the Body._
In the rest of his Book he enquires after the Indian _Fresia,_ and
thinks it to be the _Pharrasii_ mentioned by _Curtius,_ beyond the _Ganges._
He pretends to trace _Freso's_ Genealogy, as far as _Shem,_ one of _Noah's_
Sons, and gives an Account of the Travels of _Freso_ and his Bre-
thren, c. all which is submitted to the Readers Censure, it being ap-
plicable to Antiquaries better than to any other fort of Men.
_ui bene conjecit Vatem bunc perhibebo optimum_.
erarbi



http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/angsaxeng.html




*Sasa, Republic of Macedonia*
The village and surrounding mines were set up by Saxons, Germans, which settled north-eastern Macedonia in Middle Ages. *The name Sasa originates from German Saxons, as Sasa means Saxon in Macedonian Language.* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasa,_R...c_of_Macedonia

*Sasa = Short form of Alexander* (www.behindthename.com)

*Saxons known as Macedonians before - (Saxon=Sasa=Alexander) = Alexanders people or Macedonians = Same

*
Ancient authors like Okolski say that the origin of these arms was in Saxony, and thus they are called Sas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_(coat_of_arms)
*
Saxons
*http://www.traditionalwitchcraft.com/index.php?title=Saxon&printable=yes

*French Kings (Robertians, Capetians . . .) - Saxon origin?* http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm

*History of The Franks*
The Franks provide the dynasty which can be seen as the first royal house of France. From them, in origin one of the Germanic tribes, the word France derives.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab74

----------


## Yetos

the above can be true, 

since Mercel create ministry of Greece and Fuhtel atThessaloniki

that means that Saxons or SaSA people were Germans 

so Makedonians were Germans  :Grin:

----------


## MKD not FIROM

HELLOOOO !!!
Good evening people of Europe , i am new in the Eupedia :)

----------


## MKD not FIROM

Im wathing you very carefully :)

----------


## MKD not FIROM

Id love this Thread:Macedonians because i am one of them

----------


## zanipolo

> Id love this Thread:Macedonians because i am one of them


are you sure?

do you have any evidence/proof?

----------


## MKD not FIROM

> are you sure?
> 
> do you have any evidence/proof?


Yes , I have , oops thats me :)))))))))0
It is my right ok acording to UN documents ?!

----------


## MKD not FIROM

Venet !! nice slavic ?

----------


## MKD not FIROM

Macedonian Y-DNA :
Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09

Y Haplogroup
Macedonians

E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%

E1b1b1b-M81
0

E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%

G-M201
3.80%

H-M69
1.40%

1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0

I1-M253
1.90%

I2a-P37b
27.50%

I2b1-M223
1.90%

J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%

J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%

J2a4b-M67
2.80%

J2b2-M241
5.20%

L-M22
0.50%

N1c-Tat
0.50%

P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%

R1*-M173
0.50%

R1a1-SRY1532 *
14.20%

R1b1-P25
11.40%

T-M70
1.90%

TOTAL
100.00%

*R1a1= M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations

----------


## MKD not FIROM

And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:


Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09




Y Haplogroup
Macedonians
Albanians
Others
Total

E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%
28.80%
14.30%
19.80%

E1b1b1b-M81
0
1.80%
0
0.60%

E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%
1.80%
0
2%

G-M201
3.80%
2.70%
4.80%
3.50%

H-M69
1.40%
1.80%
14.30%
2.30%

1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0
1.80%
4.80%
0.90%

I1-M253
1.90%
6.30%
0
3.20%

I2a-P37b
27.50%
1.80%
0
17.50%

I2b1-M223
1.90%
1.80%
4.80%
2%

J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%
1.80%
0
2.60%

J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%
2.70%
9.50%
4.40%

J2a4b-M67
2.80%
2.70%
9.50%
3.20%

J2b2-M241
5.20%
13.50%
4.80%
7.90%

L-M22
0.50%
0%
0
0.30%

N1c-Tat
0.50%
0
0
0.30%

P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%
0
4.80%
0.60%

R1*-M173
0.50%
0
0
0.30%

R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu
14.20%
12.60%
4.80%
13.10%

R1b1-P25
11.40%
18%
23.80%
14.30%

T-M70
1.90%
0
0
1.20%

TOTAL
100.00%
99.90%
100.20%
100.00%

* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations

----------


## MKD not FIROM

And this is from Pericic et. 2005
for Macedonians(ethnic)
Pericic 2005



haplogroups
mutation
Macedonians

E3b*
M35
0

E3b1
M78
2.53%

E3b1-a
M78a
21.53%

E3b2
M81
0

E3b3
M123
0

G
M201
5.10%

J
M212
0

J2e*
M102
2.50%

J2e1
M241
3.80%

J2*
M172
3.80%

J2f*
M67
0

J2f1
M92
2.50%

F*
M89
1.30%

H1
M82
0

I*
M170
0

I1a
M253
5.06%

I1b*
P37
29.11%

I1c
M223
0

K*(xP)
M9
1.27%

R1b
M173
5.06%

R1a
SRY-1532
15.19%

Q*
M242
0

P*(xQ,R1)
92r7
0

----------


## ILLYRIAN

> Greek without the real language and root "Phoenician alphabet", is nothing and nobody cared to speak it today, its over with the crap language. Even the ancient Macedonians didnt give a damn about it, used for all others to understand the common language in antiquity, like english is today. Modern Greek and Albanian language does not sound European at all. The Greek Civilization using others progress, who was not theirs, did not last long.


BEFORE YOU WRITE AND TALK JUST READ A LITTLE BIT MORE AND BE THE PUPIL OF "MORE" AND NOT A MORON.
DO YOU WAT TO BELIEVE OR NOT , DO YOU LIKE IT OR NOT THE TRUTH CAN NOT BE OPPOSITE.
JUST HAVE A LOOK AT THIS LINK postimg. org/image/w7k7exehr/ THE ALBANIAN ARMENIAN AND THE GREEK ARE THE FIRST ORIGNAL LANGUAGES.

AND BY THE WAY ILIRIA OR ILLYRIA CAN NOT BE TRANSLATED IN ANY OTHER LANGAGE ECXEPT THE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE 
ILLYR - ILIR - ILIRIA - ILLYRIA = FREE MAN ,FREE COUNTRY , FREEDOM .

----------


## Dinarid

> The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.
> 
> THAT IS CORRECT REGULUS
> 
> the Makedonians as we all know from ancient is Sub-Greek nation as Iones lakedaimonioi, magna grecani, Pontioi (euxeinus pontus), Cretans etc 
> 
> 
> 
> that is the central Argead Makedonia started from Holy Dion (where Hercules climb olymp) 
> ...


Oh great. Everyone knew this thread would be trouble as soon as they saw the name. Nice temper tantrum, by the way. In case you hadn't noticed, on Eupedia we pride ourselves in civilized debates and not throwing around insults, hyperbole, and emotional outbursts. You can take that to Topix or wherever but it is most certainly unwelcome here.

----------


## Dinarid

We need moderators over here, this crap can't be allowed to pollute Eupedia.

----------


## VMRO1893

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016...icial-website/

----------


## VMRO1893

An interesting article about descendants of ancient Macedonians in Pakistan

*New Indo-European Language Discovered*

A linguistics researcher at the Macquarie University in Australia has discovered that the language, known as Burushaski, which is spoken by about 90,000 people who reside in a remote area of Pakistan, is Indo-European in origin.

Prof Ilija Casule’s discovery, which has now been verified by a number of the world’s top linguists, has excited linguistics experts around the world.
An entire issue of the eminent international linguistics journal the _Journal of Indo-European Studies_ is devoted to a discussion of his findings later this month.
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.
The Phrygians migrated from Macedonia to Anatolia (today part of Turkey) and were famous for their legendary kings who figure prominently in Greek mythology such as King Midas who turned whatever he touched into gold. They later migrated further east, reaching India. Indeed, according to ancient legends of the Burushaski (or Burusho) people, they are descendants of Alexander the Great.


Tracing the historical path of a language is no easy task. Prof Casule said he became interested in the origins of Burushaski more than 20 years ago.
“People knew of its existence but its Indo-European affiliation was overlooked and it was not analyzed correctly. It is considered a language isolate – not related to any other language in the world in much the same way that the Basque language is classified as a language isolate,” he added.
The remoteness of the area that was independent until the early 1970s when it became part of Pakistan, ensured Burushaski retained certain grammatical and lexical features that led Prof Casule to conclude it is a North-Western Indo-European language, specifically of the Paleobalkanic language group and that it corresponds most closely with Phrygian.
Prof Casule’s work is groundbreaking, not only because it has implications for all the Indo-European language groups, but also provides a new model for figuring out the origins of isolate languages – where they reside in the linguistic family tree and how they developed and blended with other languages to form a new language.
http://www.sci-news.com/otherscience...icle00403.html

----------


## VMRO1893

I think former Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis stated the real problem over the name quite nicely in this quote from 1995;




> *“I understood the Skopje issue from the very beginning in its real dimension. What had concerned me from the very beginning was not the country’s name, which is related with the historical dimension of the problem and has mostly psychological and sentimental value. The problem for me was to avoid the emergence of a second minority problem in Western Macedonia. (...) For me, the aim had always been that that Republic should clearly state that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece and to commit itself through international treaties to stop all irredentist propaganda against Greece. That was the key in the Greek-Skopjan dispute.”*

----------


## Dinarid

> An interesting article about descendants of ancient Macedonians in Pakistan
> 
> *New Indo-European Language Discovered*
> 
> A linguistics researcher at the Macquarie University in Australia has discovered that the language, known as Burushaski, which is spoken by about 90,000 people who reside in a remote area of Pakistan, is Indo-European in origin.
> 
> Prof Ilija Casule’s discovery, which has now been verified by a number of the world’s top linguists, has excited linguistics experts around the world.
> An entire issue of the eminent international linguistics journal the _Journal of Indo-European Studies_ is devoted to a discussion of his findings later this month.
> More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
> ...


I remember this from a while back, and I thought group in question was the Kalash. They also aren't at all Macedonian, and this seems like a load of pseudo-science. Even if thethere are similarities, this doesn't make them by any means Macedonian.

----------


## DuPidh

> leaving in An area named Delaware by Usaers , does not make you a delaware, when delaware nation exist,
> 
> all the rest is imperialistic propaganda of gun industry, and politicians wgho gain by war,
> 
> I still dont understanded what the fyromians will earn by that?
> 
> only hate and wars
> 
> BESIDES EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT THEY ARE FAKE MAKEDONIANS.
> ...


Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.

----------


## Nik

> Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.


And which ydna is the Slavic one according to u? I2a-Din? R1a I accept for obvious reasons, although not all of it could be "Slavic".

And no, they don't have Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather Paeonian, Dardanian, and Thracian.

----------


## VMRO1893

> And which ydna is the Slavic one according to u? I2a-Din? R1a I accept for obvious reasons, although not all of it could be "Slavic".
> 
> And no, they don't have Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather Paeonian, Dardanian, and Thracian.


And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia? 

Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;

----------


## LABERIA

> And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia? 
> 
> Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;


First of all, does not exist an macedonian ethnicity. 
Second, i don't know who produce this kind of maps. Is this one the "scientific" works of your famous firomski academy?

----------


## LABERIA

> Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.


We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity. 
If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.

----------


## LeBrok

> We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity. 
> If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.


On same basis Greeks shouldn't call themselves Greeks/Hellenes or English call themselves English. All similarities they have with ancient Greeks and Angles is location and similar language.
Perhaps we should let people to call themselves what they want? I don't mind calling Burma Myanmar, or Albania Shqiptar.

----------


## LABERIA

> On same basis Greeks shouldn't call themselves Greeks/Hellenes or English call themselves English. All similarities they have with ancient Greeks and Angles is location and similar language.
> *Perhaps we should let people to call themselves what they want?* I don't mind calling Burma Myanmar, or Albania Shqiptar.


First, let's not mix greeks in this story. 
Second, i explained my opinion about the issue of the name. 
And third, let's not mix politics with history, two different things. What the Great Powers decide for their interests is one thing and history is another.

----------


## Azzurro

Surely, there must be some ancient Macedonian blood in the current Macedonia, I don't think it would disappear but in terms of how much slav and how much ancient balkans are in the modern Macedonia, who knows? Only dna (au,Y and mt) can solve this.

----------


## LABERIA

> Surely, there must be some ancient Macedonian blood in the current Macedonia, I don't think it would disappear but in terms of how much slav and how much ancient balkans are in the modern Macedonia, who knows? Only dna (au,Y and mt) can solve this.


Of course there is ancient Macedonian among the inhabitants of FYROM. I am sure that we can find this blood even in Japan, China, Australia, USA, or Brasile. But a nation is not _(au,Y and mt)_.

----------


## Yetos

Makes me wonder why we re-open that thread.

----------


## Nik

First of all the Ancient Macedonians lived far south of even what would be later known as Makedonia. They absorbed many Epirotes, Illyrians and Thracians and even resettled them in their cities which in turn increased their military power. They made up a large bulk of their famous phalangitai. 

Even their royal family and many of the highest generals were actually Epirotes, which really makes Macedonians a newly formed or "expanded" ethnic group and that's when the problem of their language appears. We know for a fact that only the lowlands from the South spoke a language similar (or whatever) to Doric while the highlands and most of what became known as Makedonia were originally Illyrian and Thracian speakers. 

Now going further north to Paeonia (modern FYROM), they're the last to be absorbed into their kingdom and it was actually the Roman/Byzantine Empire to finaly assimilate them into Greek speakers. 

So in short, FYROMians have almost no Ancient Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather a Paeonian, Dardanian, Illyrian, Thracian, Slavic, etc mix.

----------


## Milan

What "blood" is in whom  :Laughing: 
Republic of Macedonia is reality the sooner their neighbors accept that the better,or they might want dimwitted (sorry) "ancient" Balkan man another Balkan war on the "Macedonian" issue,which in first place they made a issue out of it.
However this Republic came into being is totally irrelevant one should read more.
I am from Republic of Macedonia.To me personally name such is Macedonia,Bulgaria,Serbia,Greece are totally irrelevant,i am citizen of that country,not by my own choice i was born there,however i will identify is only my own option.That is my opinion and i couldn't care less what others think.

Then ancient Macedonia is totally different issue and that is history on which i support neither side,i admire their history whatever they have been,but this history arose in "nationalization" instead.

----------


## Milan

Then i see many comments from Albanians,the amusing issue should be addressed,they call themselves Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia,that's how they were called by most of their neighbors.
Ever since creation of Republic of Albania they demand from their neighbors to be called Albanians instead Shqiptars,we respect that and call them as such,after all we all choose our names,they are called as such in R.Macedonia where they form large minority,but they very much have objection what other people call themselves as i see people from Albania.They even find derogatory their own name they use for themselves,but telling others how to call themselves,sorry that's bias and nationalism in typical Balkan style.
So Albanians come down a bit with that,i personally know many Albanians and had friends,not all think that way.

----------


## DuPidh

> We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity. 
> If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.


A Greek origin Columbia University history professor says that the language of ancient Macedonians was Thraco-Illyrian. Thracians or Illyrians had the ability to conduct a conversation with ancient Macedonians without the need of a translator. This explains the event that Illyrians or Thracians often intermarried with Macedonians. But Ethnically today's Macedonians have the same amount of ancient blood in their vans as Macedonians from Greece have.

----------


## LABERIA

> What "blood" is in whom 
> Republic of Macedonia is reality the sooner their neighbors accept that the better,or they might want dimwitted (sorry) "ancient" Balkan man another Balkan war on the "Macedonian" issue,which in first place they made a issue out of it.


Let me remeber you that at the beggining of 90s your country was totally isolated. The only country who opened the doors to your country was exactly Albania. Port of Durres was the only contact that you had with the world.



> However this Republic came into being is totally irrelevant one should read more.
> I am from Republic of Macedonia.To me personally name such is Macedonia,Bulgaria,Serbia,Greece are totally irrelevant,i am citizen of that country,not by my own choice i was born there,however i will identify is only my own option.That is my opinion and i couldn't care less what others think.


To you maybe it`s irrelevant but not for your compatriots, i mean here in this forum. Among other things, they like to play even with maps



> Then ancient Macedonia is totally different issue and that is history on which i support neither side,i admire their history whatever they have been,but this history arose in "nationalization" instead.


Your government has another opinion.

----------


## Azzurro

> Of course there is ancient Macedonian among the inhabitants of FYROM. I am sure that we can find this blood even in Japan, China, Australia, USA, or Brasile. But a nation is not _(au,Y and mt)_.


Yes exactly, I understand what your meaning is culture, identity, language defines an ethnic group to me this is more important than genetics as well, what I was trying to say is that the Macedonians today must have some Y, Mt and autosomal dna from the ancient Macedonians, so its partly in their blood.

----------


## LABERIA

I remember that i had an bad experience time ago discussing with you. I asked ten times about the Sun and you answered ten times about the Moon. My intention is not offending you, but when i read this your post, the first question that comes to my mind is, are you under the efects of the drugs? 



> Then i see many comments from Albanians,the amusing issue should be addressed,they call themselves Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia,that's how they were called by most of their neighbors.


We call ourselves Shqiptar and our country Shqiperi. 
In English: Albanian and Albania.
In Italian: Albanese. Country:Albania
In Greek: Αλβανός, Alvanós. Country: Αλβανία, Alvanía
In serb language: албански, albanski. Country: Албанија, Albanija.
In the language of FYROM: Албански, Albanski. Country:Албанија, Albanija.



> Ever since creation of Republic of Albania they demand from their neighbors to be called Albanians instead Shqiptars,we respect that and call them as such,after all we all choose our names,they are called as such in R.Macedonia where they form large minority,


This is something new for me and all Albanians. When you will be more lucid, maybe you will explain better this strange theory.



> but they very much have objection what other people call themselves as i see people from Albania.


Problems with reading bro?



> They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia





> They even find derogatory their own name they use for themselves,


No, we find derogatory this kind of posts. It`s a shame that you post things like this.



> but telling others how to call themselves,sorry that's bias and nationalism in typical Balkan style.


No, we are not telling how you will call yourselves. But in Balcan there are other nationalities and we intend to respect all the Balcan people. You have an issue with your name and you have to resolve it with other people, not with us.So, until then, we will call your country FYROM and the inhabitants fyromski or firomski, it`s the same.



> So Albanians come down a bit with that,i personally know many Albanians and had friends,not all think that way.


After reading your posts, i doubt that you have ever meet an Albanian in your life. I doubt if you are abble to find in the map Albania.

----------


## LABERIA

> A Greek origin Columbia University history professor says that the language of ancient Macedonians was Thraco-Illyrian. Thracians or Illyrians had the ability to conduct a conversation with ancient Macedonians without the need of a translator. This explains the event that Illyrians or Thracians often intermarried with Macedonians. But Ethnically today's Macedonians have the same amount of ancient blood in their vans as Macedonians from Greece have.


There are many theories about the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians. There are different theories about their language:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...onian_language
For example, an important linguist, *Giuliano Bonfante* considered macedonians as Illyrians, but he didn`t considered Albanians as descendant of Illyrians.
Strabo for example tell us(i am using my words, it`s not a quote direct from the source) that ancient Macedonians and Epirotes, dress in similar way and cut their hairs almost in the same way, but they speak different languages.
These to explain to you that there are many theories and this things are complicated.

----------


## LABERIA

> Yes exactly, I understand what your meaning is culture, identity, language defines an ethnic group to me this is more important than genetics as well, what I was trying to say is that the Macedonians today must have some Y, Mt and autosomal dna from the ancient Macedonians, so its partly in their blood.


You know what? After 50 years for example E-V13 maybe will be the dominant haplogroup in FYROM.

----------


## Milan

> Let me remeber you that at the beggining of 90s your country was totally isolated. The only country who opened the doors to your country was exactly Albania. Port of Durres was the only contact that you had with the world.


I remember well the 90's,it was the only country that didn't had war in Yugoslavia,secede peacefully pretty better than most other countries at that time.
But stories that you are telling might be known only there.




> To you maybe it`s irrelevant but not for your compatriots, i mean here in this forum. Among other things, they like top play even with maps


So what if they post maps from Macedonia? it is region where they are from and their ancestors used to live and are not going anywhere,accept it.

----------


## LABERIA

> I remember well the 90's,it was the only country that didn't had war in Yugoslavia,secede peacefully pretty better than most other countries at that time.
> But stories that you are telling might be known only there.


You seceded peacefully, but you were isolated from North, war in Yugoslavi, south the issue of the name with Greece and east with Bulgaria. The only country who opened the gates unconditionally to you was Albania.





> So what if they post maps from Macedonia? it is region where they are from and their ancestors used to live and are not going anywhere,accept it.


I have problems when people are deliberately incorrect and when they post falsifications.

----------


## Milan

> I remember that i had an bad experience time ago discussing with you. I asked ten times about the Sun and you answered ten times about the Moon. My intention is not offending you, but when i read this your post, the first question that comes to my mind is, are you under the efects of the drugs?


You might have problems understanding,you live in different world by friend.




> We call ourselves Shqiptar and our country Shqiperi. 
> In English: Albanian and Albania.
> In Italian: Albanese. Country:Albania
> In Greek: Αλβανός, Alvanós. Country: Αλβανία, Alvanía
> In serb language: албански, albanski. Country: Албанија, Albanija.
> In the language of FYROM: Албански, Albanski. Country:Албанија, Albanija.


We also called you Shqiptars but you find it derogatory,there wasn't ethnic term Albanian in history,and we call you Albanci now because you insist on that,i have nothing against that,in medieval language you were Arbanashi.That is history if you have problems with that just don't read it thought.




> No, we are not telling how you will call yourselves. But in Balcan there are other nationalities and we intend to respect all the Balcan people. You have an issue with your name and you have to resolve it with other people, not with us.So, until then, we will call your country FYROM and the infhabitants fyromski or firomski, it`s the same.


I have issue with no one,i pretty much travel anywhere i want with my passport,that "issue" with Greece doesn't affect my life at all,what they does is they block the country from joining the EU and Nato with that name,so what?
You can call whatever you like,your opinion and words are totally irrelevant.
I can call you Shqiptar,Bashibozuk and Turk in return.Also your country former province of Serbia.Greece former Ottoman province.How civilized of me that will be.



> After reading your posts, i doubt that you have ever meet an Albanian in your life. I doubt if you are abble to find in the map Albania.


In reality i grow up with some of them in my old neighborhood...

----------


## Milan

> You seceded peacefully, but you were isolated from North, war in Yugoslavi, south the issue of the name with Greece and east with Bulgaria. The only country who opened the gates unconditionally to you was Albania.


Thank you Albania then  :Laughing:  





> I have problems when people are deliberately incorrect and when they post falsifications.


Man your entire school system is based that you are descendants of Illyrians of entire province of Illyricum without proof have busts of queen Teuta and you are giving advices.You are nothing better than the bunch of Macedonians that practice that,plus mainstream history never stated such things,that current Macedonia descent from ancient,but your mainstream does say that you are Illyrian,is it there a differencee? 
Have a good day/night,it was enough of Balkan issues,if you want to discuss them might someone will join you,there is better threads in this forum.

----------


## LABERIA

> You might have problems understanding,you live in different world by friend.


I think the same for you and let me explain why.




> We also called you *Shqiptars* but you find it derogatory,there wasn't ethnic term Albanian either in history,and we call you Albanci now because you insist on that,i have nothing against that,in medieval language you were Arbanashi.That is history if you have problems with that just don't read it thought.


Try to be serious. We have problems with an derogatory term used by serb propaganda: Shiftar. This is ofensive for us, not Shqiptar. Do you understand




> I have issue with no one,i pretty much travel anywhere i want with my passport,that "issue" with Greece doesn't affect my life at all,what they does is they block the country from joining the EU and Nato with that name,so what?
> You can call whatever you like,your opinion and words are totally irrelevant.


_It became a member of the United Nations in 1993, but, as a result of an ongoing dispute with Greece over the use of the name Macedonia, was admitted under the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia[10][11] (sometimes unofficially abbreviated as FYROM), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union,[12] the Council of Europe[13] and NATO.[14]_
This is how the world know you for the moment. I don`t know what will happens latter.



> I can call you Shqiptar,Bashibozuk and Turk in return.Also your country former province of Serbia.Greece former Ottoman province.How civilized of me that will be.


Appart Shqiptar which i agree and i have no problem you have no historicall or official right to call me _Bashibozuk and Turk._If you continue to do, i will report you.



> In reality i grow up with some of them in my old neighborhood...


I start to doubt if you have ever been in FYROM.

----------


## LABERIA

> Thank you Albania then  
> 
> 
> 
> Man your entire school system is based that you are descendants of Illyrians of entire province of Illyricum without proof have busts of queen Teuta and you are giving advices.You are nothing better than the bunch of Macedonians that practice that,plus mainstream history never stated such things,that current Macedonia descent from ancient,but your mainstream does say that you are Illyrian,is it there a differencee? 
> Have a good day i won't discuss this issues there is better threads in this forum.


Let me explain you something. During the middle age(i don`t know when this started) with Macedonian were known Albanians and not some Bulgars who lost their way in the corridors and drawers of UDB.

----------


## Milan

> Let me explain you something. During the middle age(i don`t know when this started) with Macedonian were known Albanians and not some Bulgars who lost their way in the corridors and drawers of UDB.


So basically the Shqiptars (Albanians) are not only Illyrians and Pelasgians but also ancient Macedonians,i mean i noticed this,i know this is popular among hardcore Albanian nationalists such is yourself just don't hide that.

----------


## LABERIA

> So basically the Shqiptars (Albanians) are not only Illyrians and Pelasgians but also ancient Macedonians,i mean i noticed this,i know this is popular among hardcore Albanian nationalists such is yourself just don't hide that.


First, if you decide to call us as we call ourselves, then learn Albanian and in this case use Shqiptaret. You can not take this *s* from English and attach it to an Albanian word.
Second, our neighbors called us Macedonians, _not_ _hardcore Albanian nationalists._

----------


## Milan

> First, if you decide to call us as we call ourselves, then learn Albanian and in this case use Shqiptaret. You can not take this *s* from English and attach it to an Albanian word.
> Second, our neighbors called us Macedonians, _not_ _hardcore Albanian nationalists._


Ok issue solved Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians and Illyrians.

----------


## LABERIA

> Ok issue solved Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians and Illyrians.


And we learned that you have difficulty to follow a decent conversation.

----------


## Yetos

I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?

----------


## LABERIA

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and Cypriots,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


No, as usually you are not correct. But this is something that all here know. Nothing new.

----------


## Nik

Laberia, wait until Milan exposes himself with the theory that Thracians were Slavs and Slavs spread from the Balkans to the North. Since the ancient Macedonians are sometimes related to Thracians, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from him that Alexander the Great was a Slav too. 

And this very same guy has the guts to accuse Albanians of propaganda, when all we do is point all the time the similarities we Balkan people have culturally, anthropologically, and genetically, while all u do is trying to distance urselves from being related to Albanians at all costs. I'm sure that every time u read genetic papers indicating a shared common ancestry with Albanians ur brains defense system starts to create fantasy theories on how Slavs left their genetic imprint in Albania while on their to be the Sea People and later on Philistines and whatever other funny theory u support. 

So id rather stick to being an Albanian who sees Montenegrins, Herzegovinians, Serbs and Greeks as our closest kin despite speaking different languages rather than be blind by hatred and believe to be unique and different from all.

Oh and Yetos, I'm really curious to know that out of ur over 3000 posts how many times people actually debated with u or even considered ur imput. Ur like a complimentary hater package for everyone daring to mention the word Albanian in a topic. Were u a victim of abuse by Albanian immigrants in Greece or it's an innate reaction?

----------


## Milan

> Laberia, wait until Milan exposes himself with the theory that Thracians were Slavs and Slavs spread from the Balkans to the North. Since the ancient Macedonians are sometimes related to Thracians, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from him that Alexander the Great was a Slav too.


Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.



> And this very same guy has the guts to accuse Albanians of propaganda, when all we do is point all the time the similarities we Balkan people have culturally, anthropologically, and genetically, while all u do is trying to distance urselves from being related to Albanians at all costs.


I always point to similarities,but the thing that i don't agree with nationalistic propaganda is rather different.




> So id rather stick to being an Albanian who sees Montenegrins, Herzegovinians, Serbs and Greeks as our closest kin despite speaking different languages rather than be blind by hatred and believe to be unique and different from all.


Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.

----------


## Nik

> Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.


Ur opposition to the "great migration" could be simply justified by linguistic assimilation, which is the most common cause of any regions linguistic change. But u can't accept that, can u? 

And the Thracian-Macedonian connection is a fact as Thracians contributed A LOT to the Macedonian ethnos, probably more than any other ethnicity back then, including the real old Macedonians (if they ever existed as a separate ethnicity). 




> Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.


Ure a member of this forum for some time and u still can't accept that Albanians are genetically and linguistically local and to make things harder for u Slavs we're rather too Southern in terms of haplogroups, making all the Northern migration theories laughable. 

And stoo trying to twist words to make us look like the bad guys as we never claimed to be numerous enough to occupy the entire Illyricum. Unfortunately we lost most of our closest cousins to a cause called Pan-Slavism through assimilation and brainwashing, although I believe Vlachs suffered from it even more.

Long story short, stop labeling urself as a truth seeker as we've all seen how u ridiculously try to argue with Taranis on several occasions and how u shamefully ignore all the genetic data just to prove that Slavs r indigenous and Albanians are not. 

So again, FYROMians are not at all Ancient Macedonians but Paeonians, Dardanians, Illyro-Thracians with a slight Slavic admixture. This is a fact and just stick to the topic instead of disregarding facts just because an Albanian pointed them out.

----------


## Milan

I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.

----------


## LABERIA

> Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.


This distortion of reality is not correct. The opinion of Albanians about their ethnogenesis, connections with Illyrians and problems like this has been explained by Albanian and international scholars. Speaking about Albanians, you have to take in consideration this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academ...ces_of_Albania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre...ogical_Studies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Tirana
and other important insitutes. The opinion of Albanians, of course is not represented by some bloggers, members of internet forums, let alone some serbs who use Albanian nickname in forums(we had the visit of a couple of them here).
It is accepted by the scientific community that the Albanians are a paleo-Balkan populations, in linguistic and genetic terms. From all the ancient populations who once lived in Balcan peninsula, ancient greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, ancient macedonians, etc, only two survived, Albanians and Vlachs. Albanians, from the majority of scientific community are seen as descendants of Illyrians, meanwhile about the vlachs there are many theories, but we are not sure if they are connected with today Romanians or not, etc. From all the ancient languages of this Peninsula only Albanian survived. For this reason, exist many theories. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

_In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[4] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis').[5] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.
_
*Definitions from scientific organizations
*

_The United States National Academy of Sciences defines scientific theories as follows:__The formal scientific definition of "theory" is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics)...One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.[14]__From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:__A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.[13]_
Many theories become obsolete and proven unfounded, new theories arise. This is how roll the world and of course the science. I have explained more than once in this forum that the opinion of modern Albanian scholars that there is no prove of connection between Albanian language and the language spoken from Pelasgian population. We don`t know nothing about this populations. If you consider as a credible source of your information, people without an academic background, without a name but just nicknames, this is your problem, not ours. 



> Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.
> I always point to similarities,but the thing that i don't agree with nationalistic propaganda is rather different.


Except theories also exist pseudo-theories. And this part of your post is an typical pseudo-theory. And this is not product of some sick minds. NO. This is official:




Just for curiosity, why you are so obssesed with Alexander III and Philip II? Their names suggest that were other Alexander and Philip, Kings of Macedonia. Let me help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#Dynasty
Would be nice if for example you name a square Archelaus II or Amyntas III.

----------


## Nik

> I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.


1) Can u actually give me a specific example of this phantasmagoria u speak of? Coz i believe ur putting words in my mouth based on what u read from other Albanians. 

2) Find me the post where I said "we are the perfect non mixed" people and I will take it back and apologize. 

3) What's the problem with a language having loan words? It reflects its history and instead of using it against me u should actually be amazed how this language survived after so many invasions. But I guess u will never let ur guard down against ur "natural enemy" and hate us at all costs until ur last day and make sure to pass to ur children the hate for Siptari. 

4) Can u deny the fact that u have Ottoman, Latin, Greek, German, and Albanian words in ur language? 

5) What propaganda did I use against u or Macedonians? That u live in the lands of Ancient Paeonia, Dardanian, Illyria and Thracian? That is propaganda to u? 

6) 3-4 people of Albanian origin commented on the thread about Macedonians because they want and they can. That's why we're members of this forum, to comment wherever we are interested to share an opinion or feel the need to ask for information. Is that a problem to u?

----------


## LABERIA

> I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.*As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.*Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.


Does not exist the concept of ethnic purity. Albanians as a nation have important admixtures, but not decisive. Testimonies for this is our language, which is not an _mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian._ You are wrong and i consider pointless to explain to you the influence of other languages in Albanian and the the influence of Albanians in other Balcan languages. Your problem is that you don`t know nothing about this topics. Start to read first what processes happened in the last 200 years with the languages of greeks, serbs, romanians, turks, etc. This processes did not happened with the Albanian language.
Honestly, there is nothing to discuss about you. You have to be proud about your slav ancestors and stop inventing this new glorious ancestors. 
Problem is when you start to distort history and start to play with maps.

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## VMRO1893

I am surprised to see so many Albanians challenging Macedonians to call themselves as such, especially since both Albania and Kosovo recognize us as such, both our state and the Macedonian ethnicity and language. I would have expected Greek posters to post their opposition to us, but not so much Albanians. Perhaps Greeks are sick of the issue, as we are. Time to close this ridiculous name issue and move on.

----------


## Yetos

Makedonians and rest Greeks are clear enough from 1990's,

Stop stupidity of provocative behavour and hostility of Great makedonia,
there is only one true Makedonia from antique,

Roman territory of Makedonia is not Makedonian ethnicity,
*although since Slavs exist more than 1 millenium, to the area,
and both Slavs and Greeks affected culture and history to both countries
*and FYROM shows anex to Aromani and rest populations, 
many Makedonians accept the term *SlavoMakedonia,* 
which can conclude the term Makedonia you demand,
and also is according history,

Everything else that contains the Term Makedonia is unaccapted.
land demanding and 'freedom' issues, are unaccepted, since if Fyrom raises fortune and population demand,
MAkedonian unions and Greece will also raise the same to the FYROM from Perlepe to Monasterion to Stromnitsa to Eugeleia.

Today at Skopia are 1280 Greek corporations and 6% of working places are created from them,
and about 3% is working to Greece, as Dzeri Naumov said.

plus that 10 years now, a number of Fyrom military officers and special forces and police officers are trained in Greece 1 or 2 years, as OTAN cooperative program.

----------


## VMRO1893

> Makedonians and rest Greeks are clear enough from 1990's,
> 
> Stop stupidity of provocative behavour and hostility of Great makedonia,
> there is only one true Makedonia from antique,
> 
> Roman territory of Makedonia is not Makedonian ethnicity,
> *although since Slavs exist more than 1 millenium, to the area,
> and both Slavs and Greeks affected culture and history to both countries
> *and FYROM shows anex to Aromani and rest populations, 
> ...


Whether you like it or not, there is more than one Macedonia. I am happy for an identifier to be added to our name to resolve the issue, however ''Slav'' is not it, since about 30% our population is not Slavic. Vardar, Northern or Upper Macedonia will most likely be the compromise. As far as minority rights, that issue was dealt with in the 1995 Interim accord and that issue is closed from an official govt perspective.

Yes, our two countries co-operate and work together on a number of fronts and this will intensify, especially when the name issue is resolved. Our people still love to visit Greece for holidays and there is really no animosity towards Greeks.

----------


## Yetos

> Whether you like it or not, there is more than one Macedonia. I am happy for an identifier to be added to our name to resolve the issue, however ''Slav'' is not it, since about 30% our population is not Slavic. Vardar, Northern or Upper Macedonia will most likely be the compromise. As far as minority rights, that issue was dealt with in the 1995 Interim accord and that issue is closed from an official govt perspective.
> 
> Yes, our two countries co-operate and work together on a number of fronts and this will intensify, especially when the name issue is resolved. Our people still love to visit Greece for holidays and there is really no animosity towards Greeks.


North, Nova, etc Makedonia are rejected 20 years now from Greece,

----------


## VMRO1893

> North, Nova, etc Makedonia are rejected 20 years now from Greece,


Well it seems we will remain FYR Macedonia for some time to come then.

----------


## LABERIA

> And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia? 
> 
> Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;


Can you post a link where we can see this map and also we can read the article related to it, pls?

----------


## Milan

I can accept northern,nova,upper,slavomacedonia to me personally is irrelevant especially when we have greek macedonia, slavo can be language identifier but as VMRO said we have minorities and not to all native language is Slavic.This however is up to citizens to decide as a whole,but this identifier will be for UN,EU,council of Europe,Nato and organizations as such where Greece has Veto.Still on bilateral relations countries that recognize Macedonia it will be called as such,citizens on the other hand can call themselves whatever they like including their country.

Yetos up to 80% Macedonians that go on vacations go in Greece,the rest 20% on other places,my last two vacations were in Chalkidiki,still many visit Thesaloniki for shopping,on the other hand as you said Greeks are coming here including companies,corporations etc no one bother them,you also said that you visit some places here.This "animosity" is non existent and is unnatural to exist among both neighboring countries on bilateral relations,which is bad for both including citizens.
Then if stubbornity continue we can see many more provocations which are fueled by politicians with a cause in the first place,still that doesn't touch their relations as i see.
That is my opinion only.

----------


## Milan

> Except theories also exist pseudo-theories. And this part of your post is an typical pseudo-theory. And this is not product of some sick minds. NO. This is official:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for curiosity, why you are so obssesed with Alexander III and Philip II? Their names suggest that were other Alexander and Philip, Kings of Macedonia. Let me help you:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#Dynasty
> Would be nice if for example you name a square Archelaus II or Amyntas III.


I really do not know why you post monuments,there is other of them if you like,don't be so selective  :Laughing:  
Justinian who was born near Skopje


Tsar Samuil


There is many more ... Tsar Dushan 


People that somehow were connected to that country.

There is the house of mother Teresa as Albanian do you like her? There is also Scanderbeg Albanian national hero? but it will take to many pictures.



For your curiosity all of this has it's controversy and little you know about it,not all support this among the citizens and the opposition party is highly against it,i have no opinion on that although i don't like so many monuments.
Everyone build whatever he likes,then just 80 years ago on that square was king of Yugoslavia.Who knows the next 80 years?


As you can see not everything is tied to nationalism and hatred you know of,on your next comments i won't even answer.

----------


## Nik

> I am surprised to see so many Albanians challenging Macedonians to call themselves as such, especially since both Albania and Kosovo recognize us as such, both our state and the Macedonian ethnicity and language. I would have expected Greek posters to post their opposition to us, but not so much Albanians. Perhaps Greeks are sick of the issue, as we are. Time to close this ridiculous name issue and move on.


I don't know where u got the idea that we're challenging the name of Macedonia. AFAIK u can call urselves whatever u want. 

I simply stated a fact regarding the connection between modern and Ancient Macedonian people, since there's no connection whatsoever as the Ancient Macedonia was further South. The name is a completely different matter which Albanians couldn't care less. 

With regards to the animosity between us, I think it exists and in high levels. I have very good friends and even best friends from Montenegro especially, Serbia, and Greece, but never a single Macedonian was willing to get to know us. And it's so interesting because we barely know u or notice u in Albania for example as people think only of Serbs, Greeks, and a Turks as countries that have harmed us.

----------


## Milan

> I don't know where u got the idea that we're challenging the name of Macedonia. AFAIK u can call urselves whatever u want. 
> 
> I simply stated a fact regarding the connection between modern and Ancient Macedonian people, since there's no connection whatsoever as the Ancient Macedonia was further South. The name is a completely different matter which Albanians couldn't care less. 
> 
> With regards to the animosity between us, I think it exists and in high levels. I have very good friends and even best friends from Montenegro especially, Serbia, and Greece, but never a single Macedonian was willing to get to know us. And it's so interesting because we barely know u or notice u in Albania for example as people think only of Serbs, Greeks, and a Turks as countries that have harmed us.


Nick the issue is more complex and better not to go that far im done with this thread.
You seem more reasonable and to the contrary i don't see anymosity it depends to people like elsewhere and as far friendship goes i meet many Albanians almost on daily basis,i did had friends prior but he moved in Swizerland like you,maybe this antropology board is more of a problem cause history is being discussed.
Never meet Albanians from Albania and never visited Albania yet,but i hope next years,we all just have our daily life problems,work,home etc.

----------


## blevins13

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and Cypriots,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


*No this is notcorrect,* Albanians are claiming only that they are autochthones in theBalkans and their DNA shows that. The rest is just assumption.
One question for you, since I don’t know the Ancient Greekhistory very well, so who are the real greeks, the people that live before Doric migration or the Doric tribes.

----------


## DejaVu

> Albanians are claiming only that they are autochthones in theBalkans and their DNA shows that.


Provide link of statement (DNA shows that).

----------


## blevins13

> Provide link of statement (DNA shows that).


This is Macedonian thread, but there is one for Albanians I think and there were one study that was suggesting that Albanians after Sardinians are the second most indigenous in Europe. I can't post links yet.

----------


## DejaVu

> This is Macedonian thread, but there is one for Albanians I think and there were one study that was suggesting that Albanians after Sardinians are the second most indigenous in Europe. I can't post links yet.


Ok!

Its wrong thread to discuss it here.

----------


## blevins13

I think that the name of Macedonia is more political than historical or geographical issue


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Dinarid

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and Cypriots,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.

----------


## Nik

> I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.


He just likes to toy around with stuff he creates himself. Let him be happy and may he never do a ftdna test as he's in for big surprises with his Makedonian ancestry.

----------


## VMRO1893

> Can you post a link where we can see this map and also we can read the article related to it, pls?


That is from an older version of eurominority.eu website. Here is latest map;



site is being updated

----------


## ihype02

> That is from an older version of eurominority.eu website. Here is latest map;
> 
> 
> 
> site is being updated


Interesting.

----------


## ihype02

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and Cypriots,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


Stop making stuff up.

----------


## Sile

> I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.


it was from the educational book created by Tito for yugoslav schools for their history ........including kosovo and gheg albanians in montenegro

It says also south slavs are illyrians, macedonians, etc etc as well as the boudaries of slavs is from the rhine, through vienna and istria, all yugoslavia and north albania. 

I already send the link of the site here many years ago

----------


## tiami

Sporoi, Sobori, Bharatians, Boreans, Sclavonians/South Venets(Skolotoi)=Tracians=Illyrians=Macedonians,Da lmatians,Pannonians,Dacians,Brigians,Licians...=So uthSlavs
open any UNEDITED pre 19oo book, there are plenty on internet.
key word:UNEDITED

----------


## Diomedes

People of today's Skopje cannot be the same people as the ancient Macedonians. They came in these lands 1000 years after Alexander's time. I understand their small country needs to have a raison d'etre in order to survive, although such a thing seems to be difficult, given that they have a very large Albanian minority and unstable politics.

----------


## LeBrok

> People of today's Skopje cannot be the same people as the ancient Macedonians. They came in these lands 1000 years after Alexander's time. I understand their small country needs to have a raison d'etre in order to survive, although such a thing seems to be difficult, given that they have a very large Albanian minority and unstable politics.


Genetically speaking todays people of Macedonia belong to Balkans. They are not just Slavs who came from North. I need Greek samples from today's Thessaloniki area to tell you exactly how close they are, Greek Macedonians to Slavic Macedonians.

I need Greeks from around Thessaloniki in gedmatch run (Harappa), anyone?

----------


## DuPidh

> Genetically speaking todays people of Macedonia belong to Balkans. They are not just Slavs who came from North. I need Greek samples from today's Thessaloniki area to tell you exactly how close they are, Greek Macedonians to Slavic Macedonians.
> 
> I need Greeks from around Thessaloniki in gedmatch run (Harappa), anyone?


Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically Bullgarian

----------


## LeBrok

> Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically Bullgarian


LOL, you are the ultimate Strawman. Nothing what you said (even if it's true) contradicts what I said. Read with comprehension next time.

----------


## Diomedes

Where can we then find traces of the ancient Macedonians? I cannot believe they got extinguished just like that.

----------


## Diomedes

No, people of Salonika now are not Bulgarians. Yes, prior to the Balkan Wars, Thessalonica was quite mixed. Yet, after the Balkan Wars and the Greek expedition in Asia Minor, things changed.

You should read history more carefully. 




> Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically Bullgarian

----------


## DuPidh

> No, people of Salonika now are not Bulgarians. Yes, prior to the Balkan Wars, Thessalonica was quite mixed. Yet, after the Balkan Wars and the Greek expedition in Asia Minor, things changed.
> 
> You should read history more carefully.


 You are a hostage of written history at the time of genetics history. Study the R1a haplogroup of Salonika people and compare it with Bulgarians and then we talk

----------


## Yetos

> You are a hostage of written history at the time of genetics history. Study the R1a haplogroup of Salonika people and compare it with Bulgarians and then we talk


I would answer the same about other HG in your ..... with Cuba flag,
but if Greece has bigger R1a than any other country in balkans 
and R1a in Europe is traced back to 2500 BC 
and the second R1a is not Bulgaria
then I agree with you
you are a hostage of an agenda
and instead of 'yelling' blinded by your agenda, give proofs at least by your search in genetics,
cause even you ever read history you would see many paradox, that exist in your agenda.

and plz tell the forum your nationality,
and stop hiding behind Cuba flag,

----------


## Yetos

@ Lebrok

Thessaloniki is a strange case, and I suggest do not ask from there,
you may find strange or unexpected results.

PS
must have 2 killos of Valerianna  :Laughing: 
and 1 kilo of drugs or nerve calming peels or gas  :Grin: 
to open such a case  :Useless: 
anyway a scientist never stop the challenge
so good luck.  :Wavey: 
I suggest to stop drinking coffe if you go ahead  :Lmao: 
in case of 'blackout' I suggest FN2000 better than AK47  :Uzi: 

Long live Balkans  :Clap: 
 :Drunk:   :Smash:   :Wallbash:

----------


## LeBrok

> Where can we then find traces of the ancient Macedonians? I cannot believe they got extinguished just like that.


Their genetics is mixed into populations of today's Greeks and Macedonian Slavs, but I doubt that pure old Macedonian exist anymore. Same as the pure Slav or pure Germanic, the ones who started the language and culture, don't exist anymore.

----------


## LeBrok

> @ Lebrok
> 
> Thessaloniki is a strange case, and I suggest do not ask from there,
> you may find strange or unexpected results.
> 
> PS
> must have 2 killos of Valerianna 
> and 1 kilo of drugs or nerve calming peels or gas 
> to open such a case 
> ...


Hey Yetos, did you do DNA test that you can run through GedMatch? And of course send results it to me? :)

----------


## LABERIA

> Their genetics is mixed into populations of today's Greeks and Macedonian Slavs, *but I doubt that pure old Macedonian exist anymore.* Same as the pure Slav or pure Germanic, the ones who started the language and culture, don't exist anymore.


Are you sure?

----------


## LeBrok

> Are you sure?


The only chance they survived would be in some secluded village up in the mountains. Otherwise after 2000 years of population movements in this area it is physically impossible.
Notice that we are talking about genetics only. Macedonian is mainly about culture, however. Old Macedonian ways are long gone. Religion has changed, language has changed, clothes has changed, traditions has changed, way of life has changed, most of food has changed, etc, etc. What's left of ancient Macedonians is their name and some of their genetics.

----------


## spartan owl

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and Cypriots,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


yes you forgot dorians-(spartans) and pelasgians.
The funny thing is that dorians pelasgians and illyrians coexisted and they spoke different languages and they had hostile relations amongst them.
If the albanians do not claim such a thing i will ask sorry.

----------


## spartan owl

i have a question for the vardaskans.
one of my great grandfathers (the father of my grandmother by my fathers side) was from monastiri (bitola).
He left during the balkan wars and settled in sparta.(the irony is that the father of my grandfather was a balkan war hero)
He always talked about monastiri and about the hostility between greeks and bulgarians.
where were they the "macedonians" back then? because my great grandfather seems to have missed them.

----------


## LABERIA

> yes you forgot dorians-(spartans) and pelasgians.
> The funny thing is that dorians pelasgians and illyrians coexisted and they spoke different languages and they had hostile relations amongst them.
> If the albanians do not claim such a thing i will ask sorry.


Before making a statement and later asking sorry, you have to ask the opinion of the Albanians. What do you think?

----------


## blevins13

> I would answer the same about other HG in your ..... with Cuba flag,
> but if Greece has bigger R1a than any other country in balkans 
> and R1a in Europe is traced back to 2500 BC 
> and the second R1a is not Bulgaria
> then I agree with you
> you are a hostage of an agenda
> and instead of 'yelling' blinded by your agenda, give proofs at least by your search in genetics,
> cause even you ever read history you would see many paradox, that exist in your agenda.
> 
> ...


DuPidh is Albanian 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## LABERIA

> I see why we re-open the thread,
> 
> Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
> and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
> and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
> as Etruscans and *Cypriots*,
> 
> Did I forgot someone?


According to Constantine Sathas, probably the most important greek historian of XIX century, in IV century, in Cyprus there was an Albanian colony. They were the ruling elite of the island.

----------


## spartan owl

> Before making a statement and later asking sorry, you have to ask the opinion of the Albanians. What do you think?


ok then tell me what do you think about pelasgians and dorians were they albanians or not?But i have even see an albanian guy with the nickname dorian.
Sorry anyway in advance if you don't belive that.

----------


## LABERIA

> ok then tell me what do you think about pelasgians and dorians were they albanians or not?But i have even see an albanian guy with the nickname dorian.
> Sorry anyway in advance if you don't belive that.


Read my posts in the last pages of this thread. Yes it's true, i know Albanians with name Dorian. Exist also the name Doriana for female. What's the problem here?

----------


## LATGAL

The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). We'll just go with the mainstream theory. Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.

So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.

----------


## LABERIA

> The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). *We'll just go with the mainstream theory.* Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.
> 
> So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.


There are two problems with your post. 
1) It's totally inaccurate. I don't know where you have read this "mainstream theory". Does not exist such an "mainstream" theory, as described by you. If your scholars and their masters have produced such a theory, well, this is pseudo history and as such, can be easily debunked. 
2) I want to draw your attention to an important fact. You are off topic. This thread is not about Albanians. There are many threads here about Albanians, or you can open a new one and there we can discuss this topic, always if you have an genuine interest on this topic. And this is an invitation for all the participants in this thread.

----------


## LATGAL

You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.

Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.

----------


## LABERIA

> You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.
> 
> Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.


No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those _rats_ of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case. 
Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?

----------


## Yetos

> No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus.


No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?

*Anyway if Reich is correct*, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.

and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?

----------


## LABERIA

> No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?
> 
> *Anyway if Reich is correct*, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.
> 
> and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?


Yetos, this thread is not about Albanians. Do you understand this? 
BTW, how can be translated in English this two words used by you, emigmatic and ainigmatic? I am very curious.

----------


## LATGAL

> No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those _rats_ of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case. 
> Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?


I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.

I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.

----------


## LABERIA

> I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.


Not we, you. It is your historians who from time to time return to these stories. 



> I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni...2.80.931191.29

----------


## LATGAL

You are the one who keeps bringing these theories up though (and Sathas himself seems to have had a bit of a varying opinion on the matter if you compare what he wrote in his 'Medieval Library' and in his 'Monuments of Greek History'). I referred to a source that provides the mainstream view on this anyway.

The presence of Armenians in Cyprus is well-known, the Armenian community still exists after all. This has nothing to do with your other assertions, look at genetics a bit at least. Unless we also need to accept that the Albanian Mirdites have a specific, strong Levantine component based on the same authors you refer to (which also finds no _specific_ corroboration with genetics).

----------


## DuPidh

I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage

----------


## Aspar

> Regulus
> Haplogroups of todays Macedonians are similar Serbian.
> 
> Ok in Serbia is more strongly expressed I (nearly 48%) while in Macedonia E (over 24%) is a stronger than in Serbia but this is probably because of the large Albanian minority, which accounts for 25% of the population in that country.
> 
> Nearly many Serbs once spoke the language very similar to today's standard Macedonian, and many Macedonians spoke language very similar todays Serbian, just standardization two languages has made to similar forms slowly forget. 
> 
> If someone really studied non-political background is likely to determine the current population of the country whose official name of FYROM is actually originating from Serbs, not Bulgarian, but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.
> 
> Personally I regret that there is a conflict with Greece, and I think it's partly political, and that the Macedonian leadership to be more flexible, but it is my individual opinion, I like Skoplje and other places and often I was there.


There is nothing Serbian in today's Macedonians and stop spreading your Serbian propaganda around...
I am a Macedonian with e-v13 y-dna haplogroup and my matches are mostly English, Bulgarian, Italian...
It's suggested that id descend from the native people who lived here before the arrival of the Slavs.

Also my autosomal dna ged match eurogenes k13 and k15 result suggests similarity with Greek Thessaly and Bulgaria.

Here is the haplogroup diversity in modern Macedonans:

I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N
3 23 1.5 13.5 12.5 4 14 2 21.5 1.5 0.5 0.5

As we can see, it's much different distribution than in the Serbs where J2 and R1b are poor, and I2a is much more than in Macedonians.

Once again stop spreading lies about the Macedonians, we have nothing to do with you.

----------


## Dibran

> I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage


I think I2a-Din was the dominant medieval Slavic lineage, however, R1a also participated back to back. Kind of like E-V13 and J2b for modern Albanians. From what I have read, Gimbutas suspects M458 originated with the Baltic peoples, and was later consumed by Slavic and Germanic tribes. 

When it comes to R1a, the most dominant in South Slavs seems to be Z280. M458 has decent proportions in Dalmatia. M458 is believed to correlate to the early Slavic tribes during the great migration and maybe earlier, that was mostly assimilated into Byzantium(in the case of Greece and Albania). M458 is highest in Bulgarians as far as southern Balkans is concerned. If the Avaro-Slavs are responsible for it, then it would have to be either the Baiounitai(settled in central and southern Albania, including northern Greece). Or the Dragouvitai, which settled in Macedonia and North-East Greece. Both were defeated and assimilated by the Byzantines, whilst other slavic tribes became the modern south slavs.

I recently tested FullGenomes as was confirmed M458-L1029*. The asterisk denotes basal L1029, negative downstream. My TMRCA with closest FGC matches was 2350ypb(2 Germans). My closest match is still an Albanian with 1000ypb TMRCA, from Gostivar. We are suspected to form an "Albanian" cluster within L1029.

Personally, from what I have read of historical tribal movements(regardless of Balto-Slavic origins originally) is that East Germanic tribes like Ostrogoths, and Bastarnae, spread throughout east europe of to the Balts. They could have absorbed and brought L1029 much earlier. You also have M458* popping up in Balkars and Nogai in North Kavkaz. It could have come with Avars and Volga Bulgars too. Another possibility is the Varangian Guard, which were "Vikings" hired from the Viking settlment in Kievan Rus. They were eventually conscripted from Russia to the Baltics to Scandinavia. L1029 pops up in England too, which could easily be from Pomeranian Vikings.

My branch is kind of on its lonesome, I have 25 unique SNPs discovered, and one SNP(though very unstable) is suspected to form a novel clade upstream of YP263 which seems more commonly found in Scandinavians, Germans, English(per yfull). Per R1a project admin, YP263 is over represented on Yfull, and that supposedly more samples come from East Europe. YP263(which I am negative for) is considered to be predominantly East Balkan.

Personally I think the science is too early to make any conclusions. Dacians which were still active in the early middle ages, spread up to the Balts. Thracian and Dacian shares some elements with Proto-Baltic as well. I can't see how M458-L1029 was "walled up" like some ******* white walkers in Game of Thrones, and only decided to pop up out of nowhere in the middle ages with Slavs. Seems a tunnel vision view of this line.

Im sure within the coming years as the branches grow, and ADNA starts popping up we will know more. If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years. Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians. 

I think alot of what people go off of is fragmented factual science mixed with a shit ton of speculation. 

Heres me on yfull btw: My ancestors are from Okshtun i Vogel, very isolated part of Diber Vogel in Albania.

----------


## Trojet

> If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, *Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years.* Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians.


Not sure why you would think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago. 
First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as representative of how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.

----------


## Dibran

> What makes you think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago, lol. First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as "evidence" how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.


Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).

Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell.

I am sure when NGS is really cheap that we will learn a ton of information. I also read somewhere that there are new methods of extraction that will make extracting DNA from more ancient samples a possibility and less problematic. I need to find the article. It was posted by one of the admins here or on anthro last summer.

----------


## Trojet

> Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).
> Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell


Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.

However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.

----------


## Dibran

> Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.
> 
> However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.


Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not  :Sad:

----------


## Trojet

> Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not


No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.

----------


## Dibran

> No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.


Thanks, man. It's a shame. Maybe he rarely checks his email lol.

----------


## Balkan1992

The current Macedonian DNA (FYROM) is predominantly Balkan (Southern Slavic) but also with Greek influences plus small influences from other populations (Turks, Gypsies)

----------


## Aspar

> The current Macedonian DNA (FYROM) is predominantly Balkan (Southern Slavic) but also with Greek influences plus small influences from other populations (Turks, Gypsies)


Not much different than the Romanian I reckon, only that the Gypsy DNA is more present in Romanians rather than Macedonians...

----------


## Balkan1992

> Not much different than the Romanian I reckon, only that the Gypsy DNA is more present in Romanians rather than Macedonians...


It is true that there are more Gypsies in Romania. It sounds a little ironic, but Gypsies are a reality in both Macedonia and Romania, Serbia, Hungary, etc. I personally are not an authentic romanian, part of my origins are in Greece (Macedonia).

----------


## Aspar

> It is true that there are more Gypsies in Romania. It sounds a little ironic, but Gypsies are a reality in both Macedonia and Romania, Serbia, Hungary, etc. I personally are not an authentic romanian, part of my origins are in Greece (Macedonia).


Interesting, I believe that your ancestors from Macedonia were either Aromanians or Meglen Vlachs.
Am I right?

----------


## Balkan1992

> Interesting, I believe that your ancestors from Macedonia were either Aromanians or Meglen Vlachs.
> Am I right?


Yes , is true.

----------


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----------


## Aspar

I've decided to count my Balkan matches at MyHeritage DNA and to compare their number with the respective size of the population in question so I can calculate a percentage!
Until now I have *812* dna matches and they keep rising day by day, which is why I appreciate MyHeritage DNA, since they have a large data base!
By Balkan matches I mean: Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Croats and Romanians!
It's an easy job for a Balkaner to differentiate between people of the nations above because of the specific names and surnames the people from the Balkans have.
The only difficulty I had was that I can't differentiate much between Serbs and Croats so I decided to lump them together with the Muslim Bosniaks under the name "Yugoslavs", mainly because many of them didn't put place of origin or they had places of origin all over the former Yugoslavia so I couldn't really know what they really are!

This are my results:

I match strongest with ... Macedonians. Well, not really surprising since I am Macedonian myself from the south-east of the country.
I have *17* Macedonian matches with MyHeritage DNA, and compared to the size of the Macedonian population, I've got *0.850%*!

Second strongest match for me, surprisingly, are the Albanians. I have *60* Albanian matches which is fascinating number although when compared to their population size, that amounts to *0.600%*, which is the second best and behind the Macedonians.

The third strongest match are the Greeks. I have *67* Greek matches, which is the most of all Balkan countries, however when compared to the population size of the Greeks, that amounts to *0.432%*, which is the third best result!

The fourth strongest match are the Yugoslavs(Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks). I have *51* Yugoslav match and when compared to the population size, I get *0.242*. Around 5 - 10 of those were with Mulsim names, so probably Bosniaks. I guess the Croats as well are around 5 - 10, and the rest should have Serbian origin I guess!

The most surprising for me was that I have only *12* Bulgarian matches, which amounts to *0.126%*! According to some logic that Macedonians and Bulgarians are considered as very close people, mainly because they speak very similar languages, I thought that the Bulgarians will come as a strong match, but that wasn't the case.

And at the last place are the Romanians with who I have *26* matches and which amounts to *0.096%*!

So, my strongest matches are in this order: Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians and Romanians!
One thing I've noticed about the Albanians is that although I match strongly with them, that admixture probably happened long time ago, medievals maybe, since the longest matching segment I have with an Albanian is only 10.3 cM, with an Albanian from Macedonia!
While with some Macedonians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks and even Romanians I match on segments long between 20 - 30 cM!
It's also worth mentioning that I match that Albanian on two segments and the one in question(10.3 cM, Chr1), I call it the Albanian segment, because I match many other Albanians on that segment and not only from Macedonia but Albania and Kosovo as well!

My *MyHeritage DNA* commercial result:

South Europe - 51.2%
-Greek - 30.1%
-Italian - 21.1%

East Europe - 48.8%
-Balkan - 48.8%

----------


## Mals

> I've decided to count my Balkan matches at MyHeritage DNA and to compare their number with the respective size of the population in question so I can calculate a percentage!
> Until now I have *812* dna matches and they keep rising day by day, which is why I appreciate MyHeritage DNA, since they have a large data base!
> By Balkan matches I mean: Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Croats and Romanians!
> It's an easy job for a Balkaner to differentiate between people of the nations above because of the specific names and surnames the people from the Balkans have.
> The only difficulty I had was that I can't differentiate much between Serbs and Croats so I decided to lump them together with the Muslim Bosniaks under the name "Yugoslavs", mainly because many of them didn't put place of origin or they had places of origin all over the former Yugoslavia so I couldn't really know what they really are!
> 
> This are my results:
> 
> I match strongest with ... Macedonians. Well, not really surprising since I am Macedonian myself from the south-east of the country.
> ...


What are you considering "population" here? The numbers seem quite off if you are referring to total population of each nation.

----------


## Aspar

> What are you considering "population" here? The numbers seem quite off if you are referring to total population of each nation.


By population size I mean the overall number of a population in question in the world!
I got the numbers from Wikipedia which cites the official numbers of the populations in question from several sources!
For example, there are around 2 milion ethnic Macedonians in the world, not just the country.
So, for calcupating percentage, 17 : 2000 * 100 = *0.850*
Notice that I converted 2000000 to 2000 for a better resolution.

Than there are around 10 milion Albanians in this world.
So we got, 60 : 10000 * 100 = *0.600*
And so on.

----------


## jmedlin81

Because we apparently have a remnant of ancient Macedonians that have remained relatively isolated (in the Kalash), and because these people recently tested as relatives of modern Austrians and Germans, am I wrong in seeing this as a serious and somewhat definitive hint of their background?

----------


## Aspar

> Because we apparently have a remnant of ancient Macedonians that have remained relatively isolated (in the Kalash), and because these people recently tested as relatives of modern Austrians and Germans, am I wrong in seeing this as a serious and somewhat definitive hint of their background?


This thread is about the ethnic Macedonians not about the ancient ones.
But now since you've mentioned it, can we have a look of the DNA of these 'isolated' Kalash and compare it?
I mean, can you back up what you are saying with a proof(dna study, ancient Macedonian sample etc.)?
Otherwise, I will consider your contribution as nothing but a pure science fiction derived from the infamous Apricity circle!

----------


## Yetos

> This thread is about the ethnic Macedonians not about the ancient ones.
> But now since you've mentioned it, can we have a look of the DNA of these 'isolated' Kalash and compare it?
> I mean, can you back up what you are saying with a proof(dna study, ancient Macedonian sample etc.)?
> Otherwise, I will consider your contribution as nothing but a pure science fiction derived from the infamous Apricity circle!


which ethnic?

the begore the Soros treaty?
or the ones after?

----------


## Eumania

> There is nothing Serbian in today's Macedonians and stop spreading your Serbian propaganda around...
> I am a Macedonian with e-v13 y-dna haplogroup and my matches are mostly English, Bulgarian, Italian...
> It's suggested that id descend from the native people who lived here before the arrival of the Slavs.
> 
> Also my autosomal dna ged match eurogenes k13 and k15 result suggests similarity with Greek Thessaly and Bulgaria.
> 
> Here is the haplogroup diversity in modern Macedonans:
> 
> I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N
> ...


 Thanks for the post. I see a ruined person from Macedonia here. I was very tired of reading Serbian fantasies.

----------


## Venko2257

In Bulgaria, we say that when a lie is repeated a hundred times, it becomes the truth. I am very surprised that the proud citizens of the Democratic People's Republic of Macedonia (that's the new name, right?) have not invented a new Origin Story for themselves. 
In the end, though, it's not going to matter much: they will awaken one morning and find that their haplogroups have suddenly become Albanian... and they are going to deserve it  :Sad:

----------


## bigsnake49

Why is it that both the Albanians and the current "north Macedonians" want to claim reflected glory? It's like me even though I am a Greek claiming the glory of the ancient Athenians. My folks came from Eastern Thrace they were farmers from time immemorial. Our only accomplishments were that we survived all those invaders that invaded our land. The "Northern Macedonians" and Albanians were shepherds and subsistence farmers. What can they lay claim too? Nothing! At least the Albanians/Arvanites can claim that if it wasn't for them our War of Independence might not have even started. At least they can claim that they are fierce warriors and were hired by the Genovese and the Catalans and the other great pirates of the Mediterranean to guard their castles and farm the areas around the castles in Greece. They kept the peace before the Ottomans arrived. At least they can claim that they helped build the Selimiye Mosque of Edirne (Adrianople). What have the "Northern Macedonians" done?

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> Why is it that both the Albanians and the current "north Macedonians" want to claim reflected glory? It's like me even though I am a Greek claiming the glory of the ancient Athenians. My folks came from Eastern Thrace they were farmers from time immemorial. Our only accomplishments were that we survived all those invaders that invaded our land. The "Northern Macedonians" and Albanians were shepherds and subsistence farmers. What can they lay claim too? Nothing! At least the Albanians/Arvanites can claim that if it wasn't for them our War of Independence might not have even started. At least they can claim that they are fierce warriors and were hired by the Genovese and the Catalans and the other great pirates of the Mediterranean to guard their castles and farm the areas around the castles in Greece. They kept the peace before the Ottomans arrived. At least they can claim that they helped build the Selimiye Mosque of Edirne (Adrianople). What have the "Northern Macedonians" done?


its not the way to judge people! If Greeks did what they have done its not they did it because they were smarter than others. They did it because geographical conditions dictated them to build ships and explore the seas. Greeks were living in islands and needed to connect. Greece is almost an archipelago. On the other hand Albanians, N Macedonia's were mostly continental and mountaineers so remained isolated and exchanged little ideas with outside world. You can see from the DNA tests Albanians have a combination of Greek+Ballkan Dna, which shows isolation.
When Greeks, Albanians, N Macedonians are in equal footing, like when they study in USA schools they are equally capable of doing things. Exception so far are only the Jewish who excel in larger numbers.

----------


## markod

> its not the way to judge people! If Greeks did what they have done its not they did it because they were smarter than others. They did it because geographical conditions dictated them to build ships and explore the seas. Greeks were living in islands and needed to connect. Greece is almost an archipelago. On the other hand Albanians, N Macedonia's were mostly continental and mountaineers so remained isolated and exchanged little ideas with outside world. You can see from the DNA tests Albanians have a combination of Greek+Ballkan Dna, which shows isolation.
> When Greeks, Albanians, N Macedonians are in equal footing, like when they study in USA schools they are equally capable of doing things. Exception so far are only the Jewish who excel in larger numbers.


There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.

----------


## Pericles

Most of the so-called history posted in this thread from the beginning is false. The actual ancient Macedonians mixed with the other Greeks during Hellenistic times. So no "Macedonians" separate from Greeks existed after that. That is indisputable so all the rest is false.

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.


up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav

----------


## Yetos

> up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav


what documents and what proves?
all evidences are clear and to one direction.

the rest are in the mind of ..... people

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

*(Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon, "A History of Macedonia" Vol. ii, 550-336 BC)**“*

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> what documents and what proves?
> all evidences are clear and to one direction.
> 
> the rest are in the mind of ..... people


 There are so many in English language. *(Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon, "A History of Macedonia" Vol. ii, 550-336 BC)**“ . The best one I have read was by a History professor at Columbia University, with a Greek last name. I have forgotten his name.*

----------


## bigsnake49

From Wikipedia:

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10][_page needed_] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11]

A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12][13][14][15][16]A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12][17]An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18]A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19]A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21]An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).

----------


## LABERIA

> From Wikipedia:
> 
> Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10][_page needed_] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11]
> 
> A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12][13][14][15][16]A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12][17]An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18]A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19]A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21]An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).


Wikipedia is not the best source if you are interested about this topics. This page has been edited many times. If you search on the history of this page you will find this version before being edited:

*Ancient Macedonian language
**Ancient Macedonian language: Difference between revisions* From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search 

*Revision as of 01:18, 25 November 2018 (edit)*






> *Classification* Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10][_page needed_] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11] 
> 
> A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12][13][14][15][16]A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12][17]An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18]A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19]A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")[20] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21]An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).*An Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).*[_citation needed_]

----------


## Yetos

ok

since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,

the Makedonian language 
is the bellow,



and is also in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon,

*Besides if it connected with Illyrian then Dalmatia is a Makedonian word and not Albanian,

*So guys, what ever you post and you write, nobody is to take serious,

@ Bigsnake
the mad one, show the drunken one and got feared,

----------


## Piro Ilir

> There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.


Indeed, there's not. Point one if you can. There's not such a right place as Mediterranean basin, and especially Greece for cultural development

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Most of the so-called history posted in this thread from the beginning is false. The actual ancient Macedonians mixed with the other Greeks during Hellenistic times. So no "Macedonians" separate from Greeks existed after that. That is indisputable so all the rest is false.


Ancient Macedonians were Hellenised Illyrians. Almost the same was for Mollosians, Thesprotians, Chaonians etc etc.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav


The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.

The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> ok
> 
> since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
> Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,
> 
> the Makedonian language 
> is the bellow,
> 
> 
> ...


Ancient Macedons are the same as the modern minority populace of Vlachs and Arvanites. For obvious reasons , they both claim an ethnic Greek affiliation, while they speak a native Albanian and Aromanian language.

----------


## markod

> The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.
> The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.


So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

----------


## Johane Derite

> So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.


They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese 

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

----------


## markod

> They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese 
> 
> Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"


Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.


I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples. 

Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.

As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.


Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.

----------


## markod

> I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples. 
> Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.
> As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.
> Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.


You're paranoid and the 'source' is worthless. We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

----------


## Johane Derite

> We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.
> 
> I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.


Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.

That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely. 

I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.

----------


## markod

> Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.
> 
> That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely. 
> 
> I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.


So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.

----------


## Johane Derite

Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence. 

The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).

----------


## zanipolo

> So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.


Civitates = census in Roman script
https://www.academia.edu/7540044/The...r_the_conquest

.
57% of Illyrians are of Dalmatian tribes
19% of Illyrians are of Pannonian tribes
14% of illyrians tribes are from northern tribes....liburnian, Iapodes, Histrian, Nori etc
10% of illyrians are from southern tribes, Epirotes etc
.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0787/8/1/1/htm

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## Yetos

> The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.
> 
> The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.


Simply Ignorance

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## Yetos

> Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence. 
> 
> The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).



Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also

*
BTW*
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

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## Johane Derite

> Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
> cause Thracian have -as also
> 
> *
> BTW*
> why Albanian does not have -as?
> but -i
> Ducagin- i
> Kelmend-i
> etc


The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.

Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)

----------


## Yetos

> The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.
> 
> Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.
> 
> According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)


and why Greek still holds them?
Maybe Albanian is not Illyrian? 


Besides WHY the ending-as should be from Illyrian and not from Thracian or Baltic ?
since Greek is also IE and Makedonian Dialect was IE why not be a remnant of proto-Greek as most linguists say

Because a Scholar wanted it so to be?

oh really?
ΤΥΡΙΜΜΑΣ 


*22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology 
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.

From a List of 100 Makedonian names

*MAKEDONIAN ARGEIADS WERE OF DORIC HERITAGE 
THEIR ORIGIN IS TODAY SOUTH MAKEDONIA AND THESSALY
ARGEIADS MEAN FROM THE VALEY, FROM ARGOS WHICH MEANS FLAT FERTILE LAND, WHERE WATER FLOWS ARGA,
ARGOS AND AGROS IS THE SAME THING,
YET THE FIRST MAKEDONIAN KING MOVED TILL ARGOS PELOPONESE WITH TEMENIDES AND THEN RETURN TO MAKE THE KINGDOM,

----------


## LABERIA

> The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.
> 
> Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.
> 
> According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)


*Blerimas*

*Buçimas

*



> The municipal unit consisted of the villages Buçimas, Tushemisht, Gurr*as*, Gështënj*as*, Remaj, and Vërdovë.[3]


*Lekas*



> The municipal unit consists of the villages Lek*as*, Marian, Gjonbab*as*, Gurmuj*as*, Shkozan, Xerje, Tud*as*, Gjergjevicë, Lavdar, Brozdovec, Mazrek and Poponivë.[3]


Perse lodhesh kot me ate?

----------


## Johane Derite

> *Blerimas*
> 
> *Buçimas
> 
> *
> 
> 
> *Lekas*
> 
> ...


Thanks for this Laberia

----------


## LABERIA

> Thanks for this Laberia


Only Mollas(molla= apple) are three, *Mollas*. There are plenty of villages with the suffix as.

----------


## Yetos

*100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

**KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI*
*1. ALEXANDROS* m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
*2. PHILIPPOS* m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
*3. AEROPOS* m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
*4. ALKETAS* m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
*5. AMYNTAS* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*6. ANTIGONOS* m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
*7. ANTIPATROS* m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
*8. ARCHELAOS* m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
*9. ARGAIOS* m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*10. DEMETRIOS* m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
*11. KARANOS* m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
*12. KASSANDROS* m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
*13. KOINOS* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
*14. LYSIMACHOS* m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
*15. SELEUKOS* m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
*16. ARRIDHAIOS* m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
*17. ORESTES* m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
*18. PAUSANIAS* m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
*19. PERDIKKAS* m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*20. PERSEUS* m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
*21. PTOLEMEOS* m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
*22. TYRIMMAS* m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
*QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY*
*23. EURYDIKE* f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
*24. BERENIKE* f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
*25. KLEOPATRA* f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
*26. CYNNA* f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
*27. THESSALONIKI* f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
*GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS*
*28. PARMENION* m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
*29. PEUKESTAS* m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
*30. ARISTOPHANES* m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
*31. KORRAGOS* m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
*32. ARISTON* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
*33. KLEITUS* m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
*34. HEPHAISTION* m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
*35. HERAKLEIDES* m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
*36. KRATEROS* m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
*37. NEOPTOLEMOS* m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
*38. PHILOTAS* m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
*39. PHILOXENOS* m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
*40. MENELAOS* m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
*41. LAOMEDON* m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
*42. POLYPERCHON* Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
*43. HEGELOCHOS* m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
*44. POLEMON* m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
*45. AUTODIKOS* m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
*46. BALAKROS* m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
*47. NIKANOR* (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
*48. LEONNATOS* m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
*49. KRITOLAOS* m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
*50. ZOILOS* m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
*51. ZEUXIS* m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
*52. LEOCHARIS* m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
*53. DEINOKRATIS* m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
*54. ADMETOS* (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
*55. ANDROTIMOS* (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
*56. PEITHON* m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
*57. SOSTRATOS* m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
*58. DIMNOS* m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
*59. TIMANDROS* m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
*60. TLEPOLEMOS* ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
*61. AXIOS* (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
*62. THEOXENOS* (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
*63. MITRON* (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
*64. KLEOCHARIS* (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
*65. PREPELAOS* (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
*66. HIPPOLOCHOS* (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
*67. ALEXARCHOS* (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
*68. ASCLEPIODOROS* (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
*69. KALLINES* (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
*70. PLEISTARHOS* (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
*71. POLYKLES* (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
*72. POLYDAMAS* (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
*73. APOLLOPHANES* (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
*74. ARCHIAS* (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
*75. ARCHESILAOS* (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
*76. ARETAS* (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
*77. KLEANDROS* (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
*78. AGESISTRATOS* (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
*79. AGERROS* (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
*80. AVREAS* (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
*81. AGATHANOR* (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
*82. AGAKLES* (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
*83. AGASIKLES* (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
*84. AGGAREOS* (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
*85. AGELAS* (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
*86. AGIPPOS* (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
*87. AGLAIANOS* (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
*88. AGNOTHEOS* (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
*89. ATHENAGORAS* (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
*90. PERIANDROS* (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
*91. LEODISKOS* (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
*92. EPHRANOR* (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
*93. DIONYSOPHON* m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
*MACEDONIAN WOMEN*
*94. ANTIGONE* f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
*95. VOULOMAGA* (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
*96. ATALANTE* (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
*97. AGELAEIA* (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
*98. ATHENAIS* (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
*99. STRATONIKE* f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
*100. THETIMA* f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;

"In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
*The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians 
duration time 29:56 ,






*In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

----------


## LABERIA

> Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;
> 
> "In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "
> This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
> *The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians 
> duration time 29:56 ,
> *In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "


The stadium was previously known as the City Stadium Skopje (Macedonian: Градски Стадион Скопје) until 2009 and Philip II Arena (Macedonian: Национална Арена Филип Втори) until 2019, when was renamed in a honour of the Macedonian pop icon Toshe Proeski.[2]
In February 2018 Alexander the Great was dropped from the airport's name in a move to improve relations with Greece.[11] A few months before Aegean Airlines announced future flights between Athens and Skopje,[12] the first flights to Greece for several years, despite with the ongoing tensions between the naming dispute for both countries.
Your most important hero is Toshe Proeski. 
BTW, is true that you intend to name the no name airport Justinian XVII or something like this?

----------


## Yetos

> *However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "*
> 
> In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, *Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French.*


1) So ancient Makedonians spoke Slav?
Slovenian or Moskvitc?
So Slavic languages existed before the known entrance of Slavs in Balkans.

2) and Makedonians were named Greeks for the empire of Greeks? *which is after Alexander offcourse, hm* simply *Oxymoron
*
3) and Russian language ruled Egypt 276 years ago.

----------


## Yetos

> The stadium was previously known as the City Stadium Skopje (Macedonian: Градски Стадион Скопје) until 2009 and Philip II Arena (Macedonian: Национална Арена Филип Втори) until 2019, when was renamed in a honour of the Macedonian pop icon Toshe Proeski.[2]
> In February 2018 Alexander the Great was dropped from the airport's name in a move to improve relations with Greece.[11] A few months before Aegean Airlines announced future flights between Athens and Skopje,[12] the first flights to Greece for several years, despite with the ongoing tensions between the naming dispute for both countries.
> Your most important hero is Toshe Proeski. 
> BTW, is true that you intend to name the no name airport Justinian XVII or something like this?



Vey interesting,
The one who believe is autochthonos in Balkans,

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;
> 
> "In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "
> 
> This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
> *The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians 
> duration time 29:56 ,
> 
> 
> ...



Of course there is continuity, for at least for part of the population of Macedonia with Ancient Macedon, anybody with any common sense would agree.
However saying Albanians and Illyrians have no connection is a huge stretch. Check the map of Alexanders empire and you will notice Albania proper as well as Epiros are not part of the empire(at least not conquered by war, but rather by marriage). Why do you think that is?

Because Alexanders mother as well as half his blood was from that region. A nice chunk of his army were from the region where today Albanians live.
So please leave your prejudice towards modern Albanians at the door when addressing historic population genealogy.

Do me and yourself a favor and google Emathia/Ematia. Modern day Mat. Philip had a large royal house there. And albeit he did initially fight wars against Dardans and Illyrians by the time of Alexanders empire they were allies.

I find it sad how modern politics prejudices ancient history. Truly sad.

"Olympias was the daughter of Neoptolemus I, king of the Molossians, an ancient Greek tribe in Epirus, and sister of Alexander I. Her family belonged to the Aeacidae, a well-respected family of Epirus, which claimed descent from Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. "





PS: Albanians and Macedonians should rather get along, since we already have contributed for hundreds if not thousands of years to each others victories and defeats. 
Love thy neighbor.

PPS: How were ancient Macedonians Slavs? You are missing 1000 years mate.


The *Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient tribe that lived on the alluvial plain around the rivers Haliacmon and lower Axios in the northeastern part of mainland Greece. Essentially an ancient Greek people,[1] they gradually expanded from their homeland along the Haliacmon valley on the northern edge of the Greek world, absorbing or driving out neighbouring non-Greek tribes, primarily Thracian and Illyrian.[2][3]
*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

*Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group. They are native to Eurasia, stretching from Central, Eastern, and Southeastern Europe all the way north and eastwards to Northeast Europe, Northern Asia (Siberia), and Central Asia (especially Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan), as well as historically in Western Europe (particularly in East Germany) and Western Asia(including Anatolia). From the early 6th century they spread to inhabit the majority of Central, Eastern and Southeastern Europe.*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

It is fine to be proud of your Slavhood, it is not fine to bend history the way you are with post 19th century propaganda.

----------


## blevins13

Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail


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## Yetos

> Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



 :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking:  

 :Confused:   :Confused:   :Confused: 

 :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified: 

*Where? does it say such things?
*in fact in the area was the Orpheus Pieroi the Thracian city Λειβηθρα, *

Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας
is the Neolithic cemetery, 
and later one of the most North and isolated Mycenean dwellings
Maybe the Neolithic tombs for you are Illyrian?
*Now what? Illyrians were not bronze age? but Neolithic farmers or HG?  :Shocked:   :Shocked:   :Shocked:  


 :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking:  

I am very disapointed.

 :Sad 2:   :Sad 2:   :Sad 2:

----------


## Piro Ilir

> So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.


Keep in mind the context of the time when such heritage was acclaimed. It was done for prestige and for participating at the Olympic games. Romans did the same when they claimed heritage from Trojans. This was politics. The truth about them is on the statement; went leaving among Illyrians.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese 
> 
> Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"


From modern Y-dna studies, seems that Phrygians and Armenians, whom both migrated in Anatolia from Balkans have no relations with ancient Mycenaeans and later Hellenes. Phrygians and Armenians were R1b-Z2103 people.

I have read that the closest Albanian linguistic relative was Armenian language.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> You're paranoid and the 'source' is worthless. We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.
> 
> I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.


Albanians have to do a lot with the Greek history as long as both ethnicities descent from paleo/Balkans ethnolinguistic people. It would be normal after all

----------


## blevins13

> *Where? does it say such things?
> *in fact in the area was the Orpheus Pieroi the Thracian city Λειβηθρα, *
> 
> Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας
> is the Neolithic cemetery, 
> and later one of the most North and isolated Mycenean dwellings
> Maybe the Neolithic tombs for you are Illyrian?
> *Now what? Illyrians were not bronze age? but Neolithic farmers or HG?    
> 
> ...


Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ? 


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## Piro Ilir

> Simply Ignorance


You are lost of words simply as that. Katharevousan

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## Piro Ilir

> Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
> cause Thracian have -as also
> 
> *
> BTW*
> why Albanian does not have -as?
> but -i
> Ducagin- i
> Kelmend-i
> etc


Because Albanians didn't started the so called process 'Katharevousa'. 
Languages change , you are supposed to know it.

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## Yetos

> *From modern Y-dna studies, seems that Phrygians and Armenians, whom both migrated in Anatolia from Balkans have no relations with ancient Mycenaeans and later Hellenes. Phrygians and Armenians were R1b-Z2103 people.*
> 
> *I have read that the closest Albanian linguistic relative was Armenian language.*




 :Confused:   :Confused:   :Confused:  

 :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking:  

 :Disappointed:   :Disappointed:   :Disappointed:

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## Yetos

*SETI program*
Search for Extra Terrestial Intelligence
*SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA.*  :Grin:   :Grin: 













come on guys be serious.

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## Piro Ilir

> Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Tumulus graves were part of most of ancient IE tribes, Mycenaean and Illyrian including. 
In my opinion, the region of Pieria during the bronze age wasn't Illyrian. It was Tracian, Mycenaean, or something else. Illyrians settled there at the end of the bronze age, circa 1200bce. Many of them became Hellenised or Hellenic, including Macedonians, Mollosians, etc etc.

----------


## blevins13

> *SETI program*
> Search for Extra Terestial Intelligence
> SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA.


What about the tumulus in Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας, did they come from Andromeda too? It so fun to see you bounce around like a windup toy trying to cover the obvious “tumulus burials” a sign of Illyrians.


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## Yetos

> Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*
So In your opinion,
THE LINK YOU POST US DOES NOT SAY SOMETHING AS YOUR CLAIMS, 
BUT YOU LINK IT, WITH YOUR OPINION THAT SAY SUCH, right?*

I guess you never been there, 
you have nothing to compare etc etc
and in fact you do not know even which tomb you refferering.  :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless: 


 :Sad 2:   :Sad 2:   :Sad 2:   :Sad 2: 


btw 
I was petrified when I read your fantastic evidences (made by your opinion)

----------


## blevins13

> Tumulus graves were part of most of ancient IE tribes, Mycenaean and Illyrian including. 
> In my opinion, the region of Pieria during the bronze age wasn't Illyrian. It was Tracian, Mycenaean, or something else. Illyrians settled there at the end of the bronze age, circa 1200bce. Many of them became Hellenised or Hellenic, including Macedonians, Mollosians, etc etc.


Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.


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## Piro Ilir

> *SETI program*
> Search for Extra Terrestial Intelligence
> *SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA.*  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Modern Arvanites claim that they are Greeks, but any serious scholar acknowledged them as ethnically, Tosk Alban people.
Tosks are ethnic Albanians whom were part of the Hellenic cultural world area. Many of them claim as being Greek. But certainly they aren't. They are just an ethnic Albanian subgroup. 
With Macedonians was the same. It would be like today being an American

----------


## Yetos

> Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum




*Nice joke*
Did you hear the other joke?

----------


## Yetos

> Modern Arvanites claim that they are Greeks, but any serious scholar acknowledged them as ethnically, Tosk Alban people.
> Tosks are ethnic Albanians whom were part of the Hellenic cultural world area. Many of them claim as being Greek. But certainly they aren't. They are just an ethnic Albanian subgroup. 
> With Macedonians was the same. It would be like today being an American


*Whatever, 
yeah I am huppy, I just remember something, lets post it,*
now we left Illyrians and Makedonians
and went to modern Albanians who are not Illyrian speakers 
and Modern Greeks 

*What is next?
will you remember to eat?

*

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## Piro Ilir

From Argos fled to the country of the Illyrians three brothers of the descendants of Temenus, Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas; and passing over Illyria from the mountains they came into the upper parts of Macedonia to the city of Lebaia."

"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history."
-Herodotus.

Herodotus clearly tries to attach the Macedonian Royal dynasty to the Hellenic nation. Nevertheless, the region where these four brothers settled was Illyrian. This is obviously politics. It was crucial for ancient rulers of barbarian Illyrian descent to claim Hellenic inheritance. 
Even today the southern Albanians use pejorative vocabulary against North Albanians. Generally calling them , barbarian.

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## Piro Ilir

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...WFQcXSnN0eh4AT

Alexander I of Macedon, was the Macedonian king or ruler so called 'The philhellene'. He attached the Macedonian Illyrian tribe into the important Hellenic nation. He gave important help to the Greeks against their Persian foes. Basically, this ruler invented the fake political myth of Argead dynasty which was of Hellenic descent from Argos. It was his work which allowed the Macedonian nobility to participate at the Olympic games.
Everything claimed by Herodotus is merely politics

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## Yetos

Piro

*To you and your scholars
The most blind of all*


*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley 


Erigonoi ending -Gonoi Typical Makedonian Ending*

----------


## blevins13

> *Nice joke*
> Did you hear the other joke?


Yes on this book.... read it. Very funny.
The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. 
By David W. Anthony, 2007


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## markod

> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...WFQcXSnN0eh4AT
> 
> Alexander I of Macedon, was the Macedonian king or ruler so called 'The philhellene'. He attached the Macedonian Illyrian tribe into the important Hellenic nation. He gave important help to the Greeks against their Persian foes. Basically, this ruler invented the fake political myth of Argead dynasty which was of Hellenic descent from Argos. It was his work which allowed the Macedonian nobility to participate at the Olympic games.
> Everything claimed by Herodotus is merely politics


Considering that common Macedonians still spoke their native dialect long after Hellenization, why did no one notice that they were in fact Illyrian?

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## Yetos

*@ Blevins*

Until now you told us nothing, 
remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
and Thracians were also what you claim,
while Illyrians were Celtoids 
*IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians. 
SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU*




*@ Pirro*

*FIRST 
LEARN TO WRITE CORRECT THE NAME OF EPIROS GREEK KING

SECOND 
*Alexander's grandma was Illyrian origin, a typical bargain among kings, 
But read this 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley
the hate among Makedonians Brygians included and Illyrians was so big.
*
THIRD*
they claim that 3 Makedonians were is up your mind

read the etymolgy of the names


*100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

**KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI*
*1. ALEXANDROS* m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
*2. PHILIPPOS* m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
*3. AEROPOS* m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
*4. ALKETAS* m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
*5. AMYNTAS* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*6. ANTIGONOS* m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
*7. ANTIPATROS* m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
*8. ARCHELAOS* m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
*9. ARGAIOS* m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*10. DEMETRIOS* m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
*11. KARANOS* m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
*12. KASSANDROS* m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
*13. KOINOS* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
*14. LYSIMACHOS* m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
*15. SELEUKOS* m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
*16. ARRIDHAIOS* m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
*17. ORESTES* m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
*18. PAUSANIAS* m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
*19. PERDIKKAS* m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
*20. PERSEUS* m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
*21. PTOLEMEOS* m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
*22. TYRIMMAS* m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
*QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY*
*23. EURYDIKE* f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
*24. BERENIKE* f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
*25. KLEOPATRA* f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
*26. CYNNA* f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
*27. THESSALONIKI* f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
*GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS*
*28. PARMENION* m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
*29. PEUKESTAS* m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
*30. ARISTOPHANES* m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
*31. KORRAGOS* m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
*32. ARISTON* m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
*33. KLEITUS* m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
*34. HEPHAISTION* m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
*35. HERAKLEIDES* m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
*36. KRATEROS* m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
*37. NEOPTOLEMOS* m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
*38. PHILOTAS* m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
*39. PHILOXENOS* m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
*40. MENELAOS* m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
*41. LAOMEDON* m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
*42. POLYPERCHON* Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
*43. HEGELOCHOS* m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
*44. POLEMON* m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
*45. AUTODIKOS* m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
*46. BALAKROS* m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
*47. NIKANOR* (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
*48. LEONNATOS* m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
*49. KRITOLAOS* m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
*50. ZOILOS* m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
*51. ZEUXIS* m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
*52. LEOCHARIS* m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
*53. DEINOKRATIS* m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
*54. ADMETOS* (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
*55. ANDROTIMOS* (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
*56. PEITHON* m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
*57. SOSTRATOS* m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
*58. DIMNOS* m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
*59. TIMANDROS* m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
*60. TLEPOLEMOS* ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
*61. AXIOS* (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
*62. THEOXENOS* (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
*63. MITRON* (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
*64. KLEOCHARIS* (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
*65. PREPELAOS* (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
*66. HIPPOLOCHOS* (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
*67. ALEXARCHOS* (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
*68. ASCLEPIODOROS* (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
*69. KALLINES* (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
*70. PLEISTARHOS* (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
*71. POLYKLES* (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
*72. POLYDAMAS* (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
*73. APOLLOPHANES* (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
*74. ARCHIAS* (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
*75. ARCHESILAOS* (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
*76. ARETAS* (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
*77. KLEANDROS* (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
*78. AGESISTRATOS* (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
*79. AGERROS* (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
*80. AVREAS* (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
*81. AGATHANOR* (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
*82. AGAKLES* (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
*83. AGASIKLES* (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
*84. AGGAREOS* (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
*85. AGELAS* (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
*86. AGIPPOS* (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
*87. AGLAIANOS* (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
*88. AGNOTHEOS* (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
*89. ATHENAGORAS* (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
*90. PERIANDROS* (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
*91. LEODISKOS* (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
*92. EPHRANOR* (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
*93. DIONYSOPHON* m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
*MACEDONIAN WOMEN*
*94. ANTIGONE* f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
*95. VOULOMAGA* (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
*96. ATALANTE* (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
*97. AGELAEIA* (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
*98. ATHENAIS* (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
*99. STRATONIKE* f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
*100. THETIMA* f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.


*
PS 
just remember to eat dinner its almost night at Aimos*

----------


## bigsnake49

:Laughing: 


> According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)


Pleeeaseeeee...talking about crazy extrapolations.

----------


## blevins13

> *Nice joke*
> Did you hear the other joke?


Here another joke from Eupedia
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek


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## bigsnake49

> Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


You are definitely forgetting the Thracians. The Bulgarians and Greek archaeologists have been finding them all over the place. There are about 320 unexplored ones in Western Thrace alone and probably more in Bulgaria.

----------


## Yetos

> Here another joke from Eupedia
> R1a-The Greek branch
> Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*Do not try to excuse your shelf
you post a link and a work that even you, have not read*

----------


## LABERIA

> And it seemed no great maruell that Amurath had bene vanquished, and dis∣comfited by the Albanois, to them who sawe so many warlike youthes, and the strength of those forces that were then with Scanderbeg. Then did it appeare that the ancient noblenesse and valour of that nation was returned into Macedonie: and those olde times long since past and gone, of Alexander and Pyrrhus, did seeme to be renu∣ed and restored againe.


Source: *The historie of George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, King of Albanie Containing his famous actes, his noble deedes of armes, and memorable victories against the Turkes, for the faith of Christ. Comprised in twelue bookes: by Iaques de Lauardin, Lord of Plessis Bourrot, a nobleman of France. Newly translated out of French into English by Z.I. Gentleman.**Barleti, Marin, ca. 1460-1512 or 13., Jones, Zachary.*

----------


## blevins13

> You are definitely forgetting the Thracians. The Bulgarians and Greek archaeologists have been finding them all over the place. There are about 320 unexplored ones in Western Thrace alone and probably more in Bulgaria.


So they are Thracian?? 1500 BC Thracian tumulus in Macedonia? Right?


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----------


## blevins13

> *Do not try to excuse your shelf
> you post a link and a work that even you, have not read*


Which one the Eupedia???


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## bigsnake49

> Albanians have to do a lot with the Greek history as long as both ethnicities descent from paleo/Balkans ethnolinguistic people. It would be normal after all


Not enough loan words between the two languages to be neighbors for at least 3000 years. We have more loan words from the Turkish than Albanian and we were only neighbors and subjects for 4 centuries.

----------


## blevins13

> *@ Blevins*
> 
> Until now you told us nothing, 
> remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
> and Thracians were also what you claim,
> while Illyrians were Celtoids 
> *IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians. 
> SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
> YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU*
> ...


Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.


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----------


## blevins13

> *@ Blevins*
> 
> Until now you told us nothing, 
> remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
> and Thracians were also what you claim,
> while Illyrians were Celtoids 
> *IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians. 
> SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
> YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU*
> ...


1. Alexandros - defending men in greek, but what does it mean in Trojan, Paris was called Alexander as well....? I guess Trojans were Greek after all? Keep bouncing is all fun for us:)


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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## Yetos

> So they are Thracian?? 1500 BC Thracian tumulus in Macedonia? Right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*Nobody said they are Thracian.
You said they were Illyrians and now you say are thracian*

*But with NO evidences ,
Just a personal claim and your opinion

So your Post is not to be taken Serious,
Come ask The archaiologists 

other wise you just are a volunteer for Personal opinion evidences Scholar.

And what 1500 BC? 
at 1500 Both Myceneans and Greeks were in their known Lands,
and Illyrian were in Austria, and original Albanians at Dacia.

So Bye Bye personal Opinion,*  :Laughing: *
The one who found that Tumulus in Greece are Illyrian.*  :Embarassed:

----------


## Yetos

> 1. Alexandros - defending men in greek, but what does it mean in Trojan, Paris was called Alexander as well....? I guess Trojans were Greek after all? Keep bouncing is all fun for us:)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?

Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.

----------


## Yetos

> Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Blevins mycenean core shows Catacomb culture,
And Yes Cetina is the first split of Greeks around 2500-3000 BC


Do not forget to eat, maybe dinner will calm you.

----------


## blevins13

> Blevins mycenean core shows Catacomb culture,
> And Yes Cetina is the first split of Greeks around 2500-3000 BC
> 
> 
> Do not forget to eat, maybe dinner will calm you.


I am on diet so no dinner ... so let’s have some more fun, what about Seima-Turbino, is that my invention???? Bouncing keep bouncing.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## blevins13

> ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?
> 
> Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.


What is the meaning of Aléxandros in Trojan???? Same as Greek or else? 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)


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----------


## blevins13

> *Nobody said they are Thracian.
> You said they were Illyrians and now you say are thracian*
> 
> *But with NO evidences ,
> Just a personal claim and your opinion
> 
> So your Post is not to be taken Serious,
> Come ask The archaiologists 
> 
> ...


My personal opinion? But Did I write this book as well. Seima Turbino culture 

The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. 
By David W. Anthony, 2007

Did I write this as well:
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...eceMycenae.htm

Go dream about Russia now since you already have it on your heart.


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----------


## Salento

> ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?
> 
> Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.


There’s nothing wrong with SETI :) 

I already joined [email protected] 

I’m scanning for ET and writing to you at the same time. lol

Everybody should join SETI.

https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/

----------


## Yetos

> I am on diet so no dinner ... so let’s have some more fun, what about Seima-Turbino, is that my invention???? Bouncing keep bouncing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Fun what fun?

you forgot to eat, you forgot what you write, you forgot what you read,

hm it is better not to make fun with you,
it is not wise to make fun with people who had brain stroke,

----------


## blevins13

I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.
For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
But according to _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World_, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...eceMycenae.htm

"The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans, part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus. They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."

*So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research. 
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cedonia_Greece
*

And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, *by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.

*Have a good day.

----------


## Yetos

> So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research. 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...cedonia_Greece
> [/B]
> 
> And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.
> 
> P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, *by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.
> 
> *Have a good day.



What ever your heart desires 

But it is obvious you really do not history not only of illyrians, But of Greece and Balkans generally.

Notice the bellow




Illyrians are the people who enter Balkans from Noricum Austria 2 milleniums after the Greek existance,

Btw I have fun 
your links and posts are indeed funny

*The area of protoGreek*



As you see Illyrians at that Era were in Alps, 
and Albanian language was far more East and North.


*HISTORY IS NOT ONLY GEOGRAPHY BUT ALSO TIMING.
*And if you do not want to be the funny guy, realize the above.

Blevins the Mycenean world





*BLEVINS YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE AN ANCESTOR OF MYCENEANS AS YOU CLAIMED BEFORE FEW YEARS?*

----------


## LABERIA

> *by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.*


And this was exactly the situation 100 years ago. History is really interesting.

----------


## blevins13

> What ever your heart desires 
> 
> But it is obvious you really do not history not only of illyrians, But of Greece and Balkans generally.
> 
> Notice the bellow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research. 




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----------


## Yetos

> Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
> Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


when you have an based argument, and not just confusion, spam, and fogy opinions,
Go ahead bring it we will read and I will discuss it

At Least do you realize now that YOUR Hideous spam, (Illyrian Mark is just your empathy and Mania?

Until now you brought nothing, for discuss.
in a Thread for Makedonians you mixed up Seima-Turbino, Steppes, what next? Altaic mountains or Caledonian Dna?

Your answer is given above,
split of proto Greek is about 3000 BC




> Tumulus burial *(generally accepted as marker of Illyrians)* in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion





> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum





*THIS IS NOT EVEN TO Be DISCUSSED
*not to use word disgusting
*cause provides an empathy, a mania, or hidden effort to persuade someone for wrong facts.
*besides it is tottaly wrong, and says nothing in Link as you claim.

----------


## blevins13

> when you have an based argument, and not just confusion, spam, and fogy opinions,
> Go ahead bring it we will read and I will discuss it
> 
> At Least do you realize now that YOUR Hideous spam, (Illyrian Mark is just your empathy and Mania?
> 
> Until now you brought nothing, for discuss.
> in a Thread for Makedonians you mixed up Seima-Turbino, Steppes, what next? Altaic mountains or Caledonian Dna?
> 
> Your answer is given above,
> ...


I laid down academic sources and non for the link that exist between Mycenaean (verified Linear B Greek language1450 BC) culture and Seima Turbino Culture as follows: 
1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. 
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

3. The history files
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...eceMycenae.htm

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

I invite the members of this forum to go through this information and draw their own conclusions. 
If the above is true than Kurgan people in Macedonia in 1500 BC have nothing to do with Proto Greeks and Mycenaeans. Their Hellenization happened afterwards.
I will show Accademia research of Illyrian Kurgan relation in a second step and at a proper thread.




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----------


## Piro Ilir

> Not enough loan words between the two languages to be neighbors for at least 3000 years. We have more loan words from the Turkish than Albanian and we were only neighbors and subjects for 4 centuries.


Yes, you have from Albanian if you put aside the albaniphobia. And Turkish was the language of government for many years.

Albanian and Greek languages share a lot between them, especially the Tosk alban. While Gheg have very ancient loanwords from Greek. 

If you'll see the Illyrian map, most of Illyrian speaking areas are lying away from the Greek influence.

There were distinct branches of proto Illyrian. The southern ones located in northern Greece moved into Anatolia circa 1200bce as so called Mushki people (Phrygians, Armenians)

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.
> For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
> But according to _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World_, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...eceMycenae.htm
> 
> "The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans, part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
> Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.
> 
> The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus. They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."
> 
> ...


The Greek myth, says that Hellenes and Persians had a common ancestor. Seems they were right.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
> Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.

----------


## Boreas

> Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.


y6d95chtt77z.jpg

How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic

----------


## Ownstyler

> y6d95chtt77z.jpg
> 
> How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic


Interesting map. Can I have the source?

----------


## Dibran

> Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.


We already do. At least one so far was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria that was R1a-Z93.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> y6d95chtt77z.jpg
> 
> How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic


It's from the Greek writings. They said that they found around here the Tracians. Even most modern scholars agree with this. Tracians were supposed to live in most of Balkans even before the spread of Illyrians from the north.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> We already do. At least one so far was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria that was R1a-Z93.


Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been? Iron age is a long period. It might have been a Persian invader.


So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna. So far we know that they were Ev13+Z93. That's a good help.

----------


## Yetos

> I laid down academic sources and non for the link that exist between Mycenaean (verified Linear B Greek language1450 BC) culture and Seima Turbino Culture as follows: 
> 1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. 
> By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447
> 
> 2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> 2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> ...


Blevins 
when I post a link of a video of a dialexis about Myceneans
YOU WERE PROUD AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR MYCENEAN ANCESTRY.

Now it is time to Find The GREEKS by your Theory, 
wanted or Not the bellow is according what you provide

Watch after min 41:00



*
The answer to your theories and opinions, after min 41:00*
Offcourse I keep my precautions, 
since all this steppe and Yamnaa is problematic, for me,
*BUT if you agree with it, and you are, this is your answer,
Which when I posted, you were laughing, and Cheer ''I am Mycenean'
Now the answer to you, given before 2 years, according your Theories.
*If you notice it, you would not bother us, (Forum) and your shelf.


BTW
DO YOU STILL CLAIM THAT YOU ARE A MYCENAN ORIGIN?
*
book When and Whence the Greeks, Giannopoulos 
*


anyway I still am precautious about steppe,
and you can not convince me,
although today seems more possible,
but the book is according all the above you wrote.

*
If you can not understand it, your problem.
SO STOP POSTING ABOUT MYCENEANS IN A THREAD ABOUT MAKEDONIANS.
MAKEDONIANS CLAIM DORIAN DESCENT, NOT MYCENEAN
AND MAKE THREAD ABOUT YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS AND GENNETICS.
OR HOW MUCH MYCENEAN ARE YOU, AS CLAIMED IN PAST.

*before *Lazarides papper*, you were making irony with me, about your R1b, claiming Mycenean relativity, and Myceneans were R1b, what now? they were Steppe with average 14% steppe ancestry?
and ask me if i believe that you a descendant or an ancestror of them, remeber?
*Now what? what scratches you about Myceneans?,* and you post in a thread about Makedonians? 
about tumuli in lands of proto-Greeks, which are Illyrian according your Opinion,  :Thinking:  (Illyrian!!!, so tumuli enter Greece from the lands of Celts!!!!!!  :Sad 2: , West to East!!! against IE expansion East to West!!! )

 :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless: 

*you know the moto,*
*the one who scratches his back at tsompani's batton, is looking to be beaten, not scratched.


FINALLY
BLEVINS13
do these bellow ,
*1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. 
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

*which you proudly claim, SAY That Tumuli is mark of Illyrians?* :Thinking:  :Thinking: * NO
*I guess not, so your effort, was either to disinform us, or you wanted to scratch your back at the batton.
And when someone realize you, instead of cover, you attack with just whatever, 
your primary purpose was to 'show-blind' us that Makedonians were Illyrians, since they found some tumuli, 
and at the end you mix seima-turbino (were they Illyrians too?) mettalurgy, Steppe Myceneans Illyrians etc,,

----------


## Yetos

All of you,
understand these simple things

*1) makedonians never claim mycenean ancestry, but dorian,*
*2) proto-greek appears with proto-brygian much earlier and north of mycenean world,


*

----------


## Piro Ilir

> All of you,
> understand these simple things
> 
> *1) makedonians never claim mycenean ancestry, but dorian,*
> *2) proto-greek appears with proto-brygian much earlier and north of mycenean world,
> 
> 
> *


They all claimed descent from Hetacleidaes. This was their myth. According to ancient Greek myth, Dorians were illegitimate sons of Mycenaeans. They just came back and restored or claimed back their heritage. Anyway, this was just a myth. All this myth explains the invasion of Illyrians from the north at the end of the bronze age. They moved into southern Balkans by destroying the Mycenaean hegemony. At the same time they went through into Anatolia and settled in former Hittite areas.

----------


## Yetos

> They all claimed descent from Hetacleidaes. This was their myth. According to ancient Greek myth, Dorians were illegitimate sons of Mycenaeans. They just came back and restored or claimed back their heritage. Anyway, this was just a myth. All this myth explains the invasion of *Illyrians from the north* at the end of the bronze age. *They moved into southern Balkans by destroying the Mycenaean hegemony.* At the same time they went through into Anatolia and settled in former Hittite areas.



 :Confused:   :Confused:   :Confused: 

*what?
Illyrians are the sea peoples ?*   :Amazed: 
*amazing

*

----------


## Piro Ilir

> *what?
> Now Illyrians are the sea people?*


Yes, why not?! Not all of them, just some of them. It is not me the first to think such theory. R1b-Z2103 haplogroup is perfect in this scenario. It probably entered Anatolia at the time of sea people (Mushki people). Anyway, don't mess up the bronze age Illyrians with classical Illyrians whom all of us know. Classical Illyrians maybe descended from northern Illyrians, while Armenians and Phrygians descended from southern Illyrians.
Albanian, Phrygian, and Armenian are all satem languages, but were satemized in iron age or especially at the end of the bronze age. It may have happened via Tracian influence in Balkans.

Definitely, Macedons were Hellenised Illyrians, especially their royalty. Don't underestimate the influence of the Hellenistic culture and politics over the tribes living near Mediterranean basin.

----------


## Dibran

> Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been? Iron age is a long period. It might have been a Persian invader.
> 
> 
> So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna. So far we know that they were Ev13+Z93. That's a good help.


I don't think they share the same SNPs. If I am not mistaken it was 400-600BC the sample. They came out Swedish like autosomally in some calculators.

----------


## blevins13

> Blevins 
> when I post a link of a video of a dialexis about Myceneans
> YOU WERE PROUD AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR MYCENEAN ANCESTRY.
> 
> Now it is time to Find The GREEKS by your Theory, 
> wanted or Not the bellow is according what you provide
> 
> Watch after min 41:00
> 
> ...


Again I repeat, I have no opinion on my own for the proto- greek and Mycenaeans. 
I presented some research on Mycenaeans and their relation to Seima-Turbino culture.
On the other side I presented some other research that Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on tumulus burial around 1500 BC. Seima -Turbino and Kurgan are two separate cultures. Mycenaean were proven Greek speakers 1450 BC. But they were not in Macedonia at that time. Mycenaeanization of Macedonia happen afterwards. Around 1500 BC Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on research that I presented. 
If you want to oppose the findings of these research that I presented, you are free to post other academic research but not Greek since they can’t be objective in this argument and I don’t understand anything of what they are talking about. So post Academic papers supporting the opposite that Mycenaean are Kurgan people coming from Macedonia and or Epirus.
We can’t convince each other but good academic research can convince us.

I will elaborate Illyrian Kurgan relationship not here and not now.

Off topic: show me when I have claimed this Mycenaean ancestry, I do not recall that two years ago.


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----------


## Yetos

> Yes, why not?! Not all of them, just some of them. It is not me the first to think such theory. R1b-Z2103 haplogroup is perfect in this scenario. It probably entered Anatolia at the time of sea people (Mushki people). Anyway, don't mess up the bronze age Illyrians with classical Illyrians whom all of us know. Classical Illyrians maybe descended from northern Illyrians, while Armenians and Phrygians descended from southern Illyrians.
> Albanian, Phrygian, and Armenian are all satem languages, but were satemized in iron age or especially at the end of the bronze age. It may have happened via Tracian influence in Balkans.
> 
> Definitely, Macedons were Hellenised Illyrians, especially their royalty. Don't underestimate the influence of the Hellenistic culture and politics over the tribes living near Mediterranean basin.



 :Confused:   :Confused:   :Confused: 

Ha?
so Makedonians were influenced by the later of them Hellenistic culture,  :Rolleyes:   :Rolleyes: 
and they did not create it? 

 :Wary:   :Wary:   :Wary:

----------


## Yetos

> Again I repeat, I have no opinion on my own for the proto- greek and Mycenaeans. 
> I presented some research on Mycenaeans and their relation to Seima-Turbino culture.
> On the other side I presented some other research that Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on tumulus burial around 1500 BC. Seima -Turbino and Kurgan are two separate cultures. Mycenaean were proven Greek speakers 1450 BC. But they were not in Macedonia at that time. Mycenaeanization of Macedonia happen afterwards. Around 1500 BC Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on research that I presented. 
> If you want to oppose the findings of these research that I presented, you are free to post other academic research but not Greek since they can’t be objective in this argument and I don’t understand anything of what they are talking about. So post Academic papers supporting the opposite that Mycenaean are Kurgan people coming from Macedonia and or Epirus.
> We can’t convince each other but good academic research can convince us.
> 
> I will elaborate Illyrian Kurgan relationship not here and not now.
> 
> Off topic: show me when I have claimed this Mycenaean ancestry, I do not recall that two years ago.
> ...


*Mycenaeanization of Makedonia*  :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified: 

anyway, I suggest you a book,
read it to understand, and solve your questions.

*and NO
you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.*
anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
and what time was each, come back,
At least read the book of Giannopoulos, the Cetina's the Cotofeni, the Myceneans etc
It is in harmony with steppe theory,

*Vucedol-Vatin etc is a point of entry, but also a point of exit,

suggest you to study this map
and realize that Myceneans are not the only Greeks neither the proto-Greeks

*

----------


## Yetos

we have filled 34 pages with crap.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Ha?
> so Makedonians were influenced by the later of them Hellenistic culture,  
> and they did not create it?


Yes. The Mycenaean civilization did crumble, but they did not disappeared. The cradle of Hellenistic civilization was Attic/Ionic , which was born from the ashes of the Mycenaean civilization. The official language during Philip II and Alexander the great was Attic/Ionic. Why you think was that? It was because it had a higher status. Athenians always claimed a true Ionic origin for themselves without any Dorian influence. They saw Dorians nearly as barbarians. Indeed Dorians were barbarians whom got civilized through time.

----------


## zanipolo

> *what?
> Illyrians are the sea peoples ?*  
> *amazing
> *


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectosages

----------


## Piro Ilir

> *Mycenaeanization of Makedonia*   
> 
> anyway, I suggest you a book,
> read it to understand, and solve your questions.
> 
> *and NO
> you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.*
> anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
> and what time was each, come back,
> ...


Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection

----------


## LABERIA

> Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection


It`s an Wikipedia map based on a reconstruction of the 3rd millennium BC "Proto-Greek area", by Vladimir I. Georgiev. 
Georgiev had many strange theories. Nobody take seriously his theories, only the greek "experts" of Wiki and of course the internet trollls.

----------


## td120

> Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been?
> 
> So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna.


*Bulgaria_MLBA I2163: Y-hg R1a1a1b2 mt-hg U5a2 1750-1625 calBCE

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA*

----------


## Yetos

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectosages


What?

*Now the transalpine Gauls, who spoke a kind of Belgae, and invade Greece and then moved to Asia at about 280 BC 
are sea peoples? or illyrians?

*Oh gods, what is next ?

During the Gallic invasion of the Balkans, c. 280 BC

----------


## Yetos

> It`s an Wikipedia map based on a reconstruction of the 3rd millennium BC "Proto-Greek area", by Vladimir I. Georgiev. 
> Georgiev had many strange theories. Nobody take seriously his theories, only the greek "experts" of Wiki and of course the internet trollls.


*Georgiev and Duridanov are 2 of top for paleobalkan languages,
*If it does not fit to your imaginary theories,
that does not mean they were crap,

INSTEAD, 
same theories also share 
Gray Atkinson Greenhill a group famous for glottochronology
Vladimir Georgiev
Garcia Ramon
Hooker who specialized in Mycenean world
etc
only the Albanian deny them, as also deny Polome, Matzinzer, etc
cause they don't fit in their supreme cosmogenesis.

*THE ONLY STRANGE IDEAS ARE THE ONES I READ HERE,
LIKE MYCENEANS SACKED BY ILLYRIANS WHO WERE THE SEA PEOPLES
ETC ETC,

offcourse as always by the same members, 
who happen to have something common*

----------


## Yetos

> Your map even if it's true, *is of third millennium*. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron a*ge, 500bce*. I don't see any connection


Offcourse,

*you made sea peoples Illyrians or oposite*
*you made Hellenistic culture pre-Makedonian, which affect Makedonians, who created hellenistic world !!!!,*

*Now you make Makedonian and NW Dialects foreign to area they born !!!!!
*I wonder how you think, 
First you tell us Makedonian were Myceneans,
Destroyed by Illyrians sea peoples, 
but reborn, 
affected by the later of them, Hellenistic culture, which they create,
*sounds like a fictional story, 
A travel in time, 
*it would be a nice movie, better than Star Wars.




*Next what ?

be serious.


look what you write


*


> Yes. The Mycenaean civilization did crumble, but they did not disappeared. *The cradle of Hellenistic civilization was Attic/Ionic , which was born from the ashes of the Mycenaean civilization.* The official language during Philip II and Alexander the great was Attic/Ionic. Why you think was that? It was because it had a higher status. *Athenians always claimed a true Ionic origin* for themselves without any Dorian influence. They saw Dorians nearly as barbarians. Indeed Dorians were barbarians whom got civilized through time.



*simply make up your mind,

what connection have Myceneans with Ionians? 
Where do you read such things?

Hellenistic is culture of Diadochoi,
only language is based on Attic Dialect, 
affected with a lot of Makedonian aspirations
and makes Koine, 


You are not to be taken serious.





*

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection


He is shocked to hear other sides of history!!? Completely petrified by his governments propaganda! I am amazed by your patience!

----------


## blevins13

> *Mycenaeanization of Makedonia*   
> 
> anyway, I suggest you a book,
> read it to understand, and solve your questions.
> 
> *and NO
> you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.*
> anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
> and what time was each, come back,
> ...


https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail

Mycenaeanization of Macedonia is a term used in the research above 
By Paraskevi Voula Tritsaroli (January 2017)
The Pigi Athinas tumuli cemetery of macedonian olympus: Burial customs and the bioarchaeology of social structures at the dawn of the late Bronze Age, central Macedonia, Greece
page 228

Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture. While Kurgan culture, tumulus was presented in Macedonia and Epirus by 1500 BC . If Kurgan People are the same with Seima -Turbino Culture than I rest my case, but show me academic research for that.



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----------


## Yetos

> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> 
> Mycenaeanization of Macedonia is a term used in the research above 
> By Paraskevi Voula Tritsaroli (January 2017)
> The Pigi Athinas tumuli cemetery of macedonian olympus: Burial customs and the bioarchaeology of social structures at the dawn of the late Bronze Age, central Macedonia, Greece
> page 228
> 
> Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture. While Kurgan culture, tumulus was presented in Macedonia and Epirus by 1500 BC . If Kurgan People are the same with Seima -Turbino Culture than I rest my case, but show me academic research for that.
> 
> ...


THIS IS YOUR ANSWER,

HOW SIMPLE IT IS,








*HOW MORE SIMPLE CAN NOT BE
*
*ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Your Answer is There,






*

----------


## blevins13

> THIS IS YOUR ANSWER,
> 
> HOW SIMPLE IT IS,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. IMG_3243.jpg


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----------


## Yetos

> Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. IMG_3243.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*
Don't put words in my mouth
*how typical of a propaganda lie*

Read this 

**ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

and this 

*


*The Brygian Tumuli in Lydia,
Brygians were next door people of Makedonians
and Used Tumulus also, in Greek Τυμβος Τουμπα Tymbos Toumba

Πηγη Αρτεμιδος Pigi Artmemidos
Same things there also, Both burial buildings, 

Athens The Tumuli of the Marathon Warriors.
*

*WHAT NOW, Marathon warriors tomb is Tumuli,
IS THAT ILLYRIAN MARK TO YOU? ATHENEANS WERE ILLYRIANS CAUSED OF TUMULI USAGE?


*
*
*

And special to you  
*HOMERS ILLIAD 
**The Most known Mycenean world descriptions
the most vivid Mycenean word culture,
All we need to know about Myceneans

The Funeral ritual of Patroklos is according Tumulus
SO MYCENEANS KNEW TUMULUS. 
in fact in Pigi Artemidos are each next to other.

Now Go and find and read ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Btw 
The city of Orpheas the Thracian Λειβηθρα of the Thracian tribe Pieroi,  Leivethra is about 10 Km North of the place you describe.
the Mycenean dwellings are 5 km North,
and the is an arque about the Herakleides town Ηρακλεια, which is for other the Mycenean dwellings
or more North about 17 km

What is so strange to you?
that Myceneans knew and used Tumuli?
That Brygians also knew Tumuli?
That Makedonians use both types for Burial customs?
or that Makedonians and Brygians lived side by side?

Period
better ask for your shelf, to forgive you, and then go to a pychologist for empathy with 'Illyromania'

Bye bye, 
nor Greeks, nor Illyrians, nor Thracians, create world, or language,

to you 

*

*Notice it, 
and compare it with this

*



*FIT PERFECT.



You have to understand 

1) that Makedonians assimilated the remnants of Bryges,
*while the last of them were the Mygdonians.*

2) Proto-greek evolute to NW Greek dialects as called and are primitive forms closer to LPIE
*notice primitive Διος to Θεος, Βερενικα instead Φερενικη etc
before go to South Greece, and return back as Attic to make Koine in Makedonia and expand to Hellenistic
the term Dios Dias has no meaning in koine, due to evolute to Theos but means God in NW dialects, one of them Makedonian, *





*

----------


## johen

> Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture.


What do you mean? can you tell me more specifically?

I knew the SM culture reached Balkan area, but Mycenaean. And the SM culture expanded into iberia and british isle late bronze age.

My only clue is there shield shape is similar to artifact of copper hoard in india, which I think originated in the SM.
looks like they have one long braid like Aryan.

----------


## blevins13

I mean this :
Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek


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----------


## blevins13

Again we are at 1,500 BC

----------


## blevins13

> *
> Don't put words in my mouth
> *how typical of a propaganda lie*
> 
> Read this 
> 
> **ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937
> 
> and this 
> ...


No one wants to put anything on your mouth. You said this right, or deny it if you want , people change their mind all the time.

IMG_3243.jpg

Again we are at 1,500 B.C 
Show me academic research that relates tumulus burial to Mycenaean on this time or before that in Greece. Properly reference name of the scientist name of the scientific article and page. No need for photos and videos this is not Facebook or instagram.


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----------


## Yetos

> I mean this :
> Greek Branch of R1a
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



hm 

Now from the Illyrian marks of your opinion?
to Seima Turbino and Tumuli Stepe or Illyrian 
we went to R1a ?

*So IF YOUR OPINION IS CORRECT, About Illyrian Tumuli on Makedonia 
THEN WHAT? R1a is ILLYRIAN MARK?

*you learn to sneak well,


*LOOK what you write.

*


> blevins13[/B];574579]*Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians)* in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.





> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*From that you went to Seima Turbino
and now to R1a* 

Sneaking to hide!!!!
avoid answer, via attacking policy,
typical propaganda train and step by step on the books *of* *Arthur Schopenhauer .
*easy recognised tactics for spreading mud, when you don't have right on your side.

*HOMER ILLIAD, 
MYCENEAN USED TUMULI
PATROKLOS FUNERAL*

----------


## Yetos

> No one wants to put anything on your mouth. You said this right, or deny it if you want , people change their mind all the time.
> 
> IMG_3243.jpg
> 
> Again we are at 1,500 B.C 
> Show me academic research that relates tumulus burial to Mycenaean on this time or before that in Greece. Properly reference name of the scientist name of the scientific article and page. No need for photos and videos this is not Facebook or instagram.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



Yes you do

*NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,

HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,

AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS


Now go back and realize what you see, what you read, and what you post
and then to a psycologist for Illyromania.

and before you do these,

find out how Vucedol-Vatin worked on IE split of languages, groups etc
you can read it in ISBN 978 960 524 3937,

*No matter I have some precautions about due to arque with steppe primary origin of IE language*
if you are following Antony's etc steppe thery, then fits perfect to explain your 'questions'*

----------


## LABERIA

> Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. Attachment 10999
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



 :Thinking:  :Thinking:  :Thinking:  :Thinking: 

*Hemmm, Interesting!!!*

*BTW, blevin, AFTER YOU POST AN ATTACHMENT, open the image in a new page then edit the post and insert the image following the normale procedure:*

*You see? 

:16::25::16::25:
*

----------


## blevins13

> Yes you do
> 
> *NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,
> 
> HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,
> 
> AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS
> 
> 
> ...


Again I repeat it I don’t want to put anything on your mouth .

Even Hammond would not dare to say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. 

Post academic research were they say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. Now we are at 1200 BC.


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----------


## Yetos

> Again I repeat it I don’t want to put anything on your mouth .
> 
> Even Hammond would not dare to say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. 
> 
> Post academic research were they say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. Now we are at 1200 BC.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*
so at Troyan war, were not the Myceneans?*

----------


## blevins13

> Yes you do
> 
> *NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,
> 
> HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,
> 
> AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS
> 
> 
> ...


Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


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----------


## Yetos

> *hemmm, interesting!!!*
> 
> *btw, blevin, after you post an attachment, open the image in a new page then edit the post and insert the image following the normale procedure:*
> 
> *you see? 
> 
> :16::25::16::25:
> *



*
yes indeed, 

the most strong papper of anatolian farmers of colin Renfrew is Greece,
and also the most strange,
the lowest steppe admixture, yet deep ie,
and no one can explained it,

yet according the theories,
Renfrew fits most.

Rejecting Renfrew 
then is south caucasos origin theories

Rejectin S Caucas
it is the Yamnaa expand and Vucedol-Vatin

All 3 theories fit,
yet the genetics show Renfrew fits better

what is your problem?
AND WHAT YOU WANT TO PROVE?

*Especially someone who the most high Altaic component in Europe.  :Grin: 





*AT LEAST CAN YOU EXPLAIN/SOLVE THE PROBLEM?
OR CAN YOU GIVE US AN ANSWER, 
ACCORDING THE THEORY YOU ACCEPT?
Guess Not, 
Only spam crap.

* :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking: 



*BE HONEST TO YOUR SHELF ONCE
and tell us
what theory fits to a polulation of 10-15% Steppe, 
but deep IE?
instead of spaming Illyromania crap


*

----------


## johen

> I mean this :
> ttps://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek





> *Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors* (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia).


I never know this facts.

----------


## blevins13

> *
> yes indeed, 
> 
> the most strong papper of anatolian farmers of colin Renfrew is Greece,
> and also the most strange,
> the lowest steppe admixture, yet deep ie,
> and no one can explained it,
> 
> yet according the theories,
> ...


Here is your answer 

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

----------


## blevins13

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----------


## RagnarofMacedon

I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...

Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."

Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
"Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"

"Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
"[33] The ancient peoples Budini and Sarmatians are also reported by Greek author to be blue-eyed and red-haired, and the latter even owe their names to it.[34][35]"

So we know Thracians,Macedonian were Tall people with reddish hair and blue eyes...
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Also if you watched the Lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl you can hear that many barbarians like Macedonians and Thracians were known like PHILHELLENE , (  "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." ) 
So philhellene was terminology for NON-GREEKS who were fond of Greek culture and language, or "FRIEND OF GREEKS". Because in that time barbiarians like Macedonians,thracians,illyrians can not marry GREEKS woman , unless they accept Hellenism (Greek culture and languge) and became Philhellene, so thats one point where Phillip II Macedon became philhellene to marry Olympia ( Alexander III Macedon mother ).
Also in most famouse Macedonian dynasty "The Argead dynasty" After first name Amyntas I , there is second Alexander I Philhellene ( we explain it already term philhellene ), also one quote from Herodotus ;
"And so Alexander of Macedonia proved himself to be a good Philhellene" -Herodotus , Ancient Greek Writer.
Also Macedonians have their own language it was similar to Thracian, it is belived that their language was Balto-Slavic and is very similar to todays Macedonian,Bulgarian,Serbian...
Also many words are same or similar from Homers ILLIAD ;

Modern English ------ Modern Greek -------Modern Macedonian----------- HOMER
Greetings (Hello)------ Gyasu-----------------Zdravo------------------------------Dravikos
Dear---------------------Prosfilis----------------Mili---------------------------------Mili
Possesive-own---------Ktitos-------------------Svoi--------------------------------Svos
With---------------------Me----------------------So-----------------------------------Sun
Shake-------------------Dono,seio--------------Tresi--------------------------------Tresi
Wood-------------------Ksilo--------------------Drvo--------------------------------Druos
Madness-rage---------Apotomo,parafrom---Luta(fe),Lut(male)----------------Luta
Here--------------------Edo---------------------Ovde--------------------------------Ode
Lay-put to bed--------palagase,stroma-------Legni,Leglo------------------------Leglo
Come on---------------Lipon-------------------Ajde---------------------------------Aijde
To remember----------Min ksexnas----------Pamti--------------------------------Pamti(s)
Song-------------------Tragudao,traguda-----Pesma,Pesna------------------------Asma
To keep to hold-------Sto hari----------------Vo raka------------------------------Eruko
In good spirit---------Kalos-------------------Aren---------------------------------Arin
To beat by force-----Derno,dernis,derni----Biya,bie-----------------------------Biya,bie
My proof-------------Apadoksis--------------Dokaz moy-------------------------Doko moi
Knowing,skilfull----Eksipnos---------------Itri,itar(single)----------------------Idri
Journey,trip,walking-Vadizi,Ekdromi------Odi,odenye--------------------------Odeia
Something sayed-----(to) Ipan--------------Recheno------------------------------Recos
To contair,cover------Sfingi-----------------Stega----------------------------------Stego
To rub-----------------Yaleyfo----------------Trie-----------------------------------Trio
Groaning-------------Vongizi-----------------Stenka--------------------------------Steno
Baren(old)-------------Agonos---------------Staro----------------------------------Stero
To lead----------------Serni,Liveray---------Vodi-----------------------------------Vadino
To Streach------------Travai------------------Tegni----------------------------------Teino
Eye--------------------Mati,oftalmos---------Oko-----------------------------------Okkos
To eyes----------------Mataja,oftaimi-------Ochi-----------------------------------Ochi
Small cub-------------Levis------------------Kotle----------------------------------Kotule
No---------------------Ohi---------------------Ne-------------------------------------Me
If-----------------------Ean--------------------Ako------------------------------------Ayke
Mother---------------Mitera------------------Mayka---------------------------------Maya
Mine------------------Dikomu---------------Moi-------------------------------------Moi
Spark-----------------Spotha-----------------Iskra------------------------------------Iska'a
Brother in law-------Yinikadelfos----------Dever----------------------------------Daer


And many other , also i can compare you Balto-Slavic Lithuanian-Latvian with Thracian...
Also i want to know educational degree linked with this topic , what educational degree you all have? Thanks
And please watch the Lecture on youtube , "The ethnicity of Macedonians" ...
Thanks....

----------


## blevins13

> I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
> You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...
> 
> Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."
> 
> Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
> "Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"
> 
> "Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
> ...


This is another view that deserves consideration. 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Yetos

> I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
> You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...
> 
> Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."
> 
> Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
> "Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"
> 
> "Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
> ...



First learn correct Greek Language,
Then Learn The Homeric correct
And the search how coorect are these you Post,
*Simply ridiculous,
Nothing to do with Homeric and Greek
your post is a cheap work, made in a toilet, speculaof falsification which in purpose uses other form of Greek language of the correct, as also facultates Homeric, 
and has nothing to Do with Greek and Homeric

Offcourse the next by you is that Homer spoke Slavic,*  :Bored: 
*how boring


For example the before the last Iska 
Greek Ισκα
Latin esca
Galician Isca
Albanian eshke

what has Iska to do with spark?
Iska is an exctract of mushroom used to open fire by sparks,
Spotha? the man who wrote this, does even copy Greek correct,

ridiculous



*

----------


## LABERIA

> Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.


Especially the NM are famous for being tall.

----------


## Dibran

> This is another view that deserves consideration. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Not really. Nothing he said has a complete basis. Proto-Balto-Slavic was said to be related to possibly Proto-Dacian and Proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian is not the same as thracian. Neither is Proto-Balto-Slavic the same as Slavic. The further you go back especially to the Proto-Balto-Slavic union, the difference with other indo european branches are far less so than is the case today. Also none of the thracians or illyrians discovered, or the ancient Greeks, had any I2a-Din/or R1a Z280/M458. The only R1a was the bronze age thracian. Even then, no one belongs to that branch. Certainly not common in Slavs any ways. From a a paternal Y standpoint, So far Slavs are not connected to any of them. Only very anciently with the M417 split with the Z93 Thracian. Also, from a autosomal standpoint, the illyrians and Thracians were Italian,Albanian Greek like. Less in the case of Balkan Slavs, and near non-existent in West or East Slavs.

What is more probable and likely is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were closer to the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians before they left the steppes. Proto-Balto-Slavs were likely akin to Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians, representing northern cousins that never migrated to the Balkans. Only with the fragile state of Rome, and the collapse of these peoples did the Sklaveni migrate South. They likely were always dealing with Daco-Thracians on the far northern border with them. Also, Most scholars acknowledge not all Illyrians were homogenous. They also likely were not linguistically connected in a recent sense either. Possibly branching out from the rest with the breakup of Indo-European. 

Perhaps some Geto-Dacians/Free Dacians that migrated north of the Danube formed a base for what would become Proto-Slavic. But in all likliehood they're distantly related and are merely northern cousins of the Thracians and Dacians, not those people themselves. Genetics/Archaeology will trump propaganda every time. So far Illyrians were R1b/J2/V13(all found predominantly in Albanians), Proto-Greeks were J2a, predominantly found in Greeks, and R1a-Z93 in a Bronze Age, likely Proto-Thracian grave(which is not recently related to Balto-Slavic Z280/M458 but distantly(5-6 thousand ypb).

No one can deny South Slavs have Paleo-Balkan heritage, both autosomally, and through Y chromosome. Especially Bulgarians/Macedonians. However, to say All these paleo-balkan people were Slavic and further from Albanians and Greeks is about as propagandized as you can get. Whats more correct is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were ancestral cousins of Proto-Thracians/Proto-Dacians, only migrating as Proto-Slavs from the north much later, as opposed to their distant southern kin, who left the steppe before many of these lineages differentiated themselves.

----------


## markod

> I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
> You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...
> 
> Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."
> 
> Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
> "Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"
> 
> "Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
> ...


Lol, Slavic Macedonians. You are insane.

----------


## Yetos

> Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
> Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
> Nicholas G. L. Hammond
> 
> Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., *yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north.* It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



*HOW PATHETIC

BEFORE YOU SAID TO US ABOUT TUMULUS IN OLYMP at 1500 BC
AND NOW YOU TELL US THAT WAS USED ONLY IN ALBANIA AND NORTH
*YET THE TUMULI CHANGE and Continue after 1500 AND ARE Primary IN ALL MAKEDONIAN Necropolis, and in many other parts of Helladic space.
even after Alexander we found the evolution of Tumuli

Simply pathetic Blevins

*Tumuli ONLY IN ALBANIA !!!!!!!
*NOT even to be taken serious.

----------


## Yetos

Blevins I do not know where you found about Seima Turbino

I GIVE YOU THIS
*
The language of the Catacomb culture must naturally remain unknown. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis expounded by Marija Gimbutas, an Indo-European component is speculated about, particularly in the later stages. Placing the ancestors of the Greek, Albanian and Armenian (perhaps Paleo-Balkan) dialects here is tempting, as it would neatly explain certain shared features.

GREEKS WERE CATACOMB CULTURE.
WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS

*and sing as ever you like
SEIMA-Turbino has Ydna N, 
Bye bye Blevins,

----------


## blevins13

> *HOW PATHETIC
> 
> BEFORE YOU SAID TO US ABOUT TUMULUS IN OLYMP at 1500 BC
> AND NOW YOU TELL US THAT WAS USED ONLY IN ALBANIA AND NORTH
> *YET THE TUMULI CHANGE and Continue after 1500 AND ARE Primary IN ALL MAKEDONIAN Necropolis, and in many other parts of Helladic space.
> even after Alexander we found the evolution of Tumuli
> 
> Simply pathetic Blevins
> 
> ...


I do not tell anything.
For the member of this forum this not my doing or writing but Hammond (1976). Read and enjoy.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Here is the link as well
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727...6_num_4_1_1174

Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, CBE, DSO, FBA (15 November 1907 – 24 March 2001) was a British scholar of ancient Greece and an operative for the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) in occupied Greece during World War II. He excelled in his exams and also spent vacations exploring Greece and Albania on foot, acquiring knowledge of the topography and terrain, as well as fluency in Albanian. These abilities led him to be recruited by the Special Operations Executive during World War II in 1940. He published a memoir of his war service entitled Venture into Greece in 1983; he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order and the Greek Order of the Phoenix.





Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## blevins13

> Blevins I do not know where you found about Seima Turbino
> 
> I GIVE YOU THIS
> *
> The language of the Catacomb culture must naturally remain unknown. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis expounded by Marija Gimbutas, an Indo-European component is speculated about, particularly in the later stages. Placing the ancestors of the Greek, Albanian and Armenian (perhaps Paleo-Balkan) dialects here is tempting, as it would neatly explain certain shared features.
> 
> GREEKS WERE CATACOMB CULTURE.
> WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS
> 
> ...


Here is your answer 

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....IMG_3243.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Sure and professor Keneth W.Karl is insane and Eugene Borza and many ancient writters ,historians and orators are... You are right..
Can you tell me what educational degree you have ?

----------


## Dibran

> Sure and professor Keneth W.Karl is insane and Eugene Borza and many ancient writters ,historians and orators are... You are right..
> Can you tell me what educational degree you have ?


You're over a decade behind. Science/DNA/Archaeology trump "historians" every time. Humans are fallible. The dead bodies and archaeological finds are not. Genetically Thracians and Illyrians proper were North Italian/Albanian/Greek like genetically. Of the Thracians discovered so far, one was E-V13(dominates in Albanians and Greeks, and lastly Bulgarians) and a Proto-Thracian who was R1a-Z93, a branch near non-existent in Slavs. Illyrians discovered thus far were R1b-L23, E1b, and a Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. All lineages that make up more than 75-80 percent of the Albanian male population. 

Slavs are predominantly R1a-Z280(found in Balto-Slavic Graves), I2a-Din(found in a Polish and Russian medieval Slav, and R1a-M458, which has one medieval West Slavic, and East German. From a genetic stand point your claims couldn't be further from the truth.

Linguistically there is no consensus Illyrians/Thracians/Dacians even spoke the same language. The Illyrians themselves appear not to be homogenous. Proto-Slavs remained in the steppe the longest out of every indo-european, and therefore had the slowest progression even in language. Parallels you notice are not literal continuations, but early indo-european language similarities.

Proto-Balto-Slavic was believed to be a NORTHERN relative of Proto-Thracian and Proto-Dacian. Not That Slavs come from Proto-Dacians/Proto-Thracians. There is a BIG difference. These peoples migrated from the steppe long before their distant northern kin came down in the middle ages, far removed from their ancient cousins.

So far, outside of Balkan Slavs, most of Slavdom DOES NOT have the paternal Y chromosome or even similar genome to Illyrians and Thracians discovered so far. You can repeat your propaganda until the cows come home, Genetics which is a far more calculated discipline contradicts you completely. Slavs are also heterogenous, and so have absorbed ancestries East to West, with Slavic operating as Lingua Franca and absorbing many admixtures along the way. Bulgarians and Macedonians for instance are closest to Greeks and then Albanians. Whereas, Slovenians and Croatians have more Slavic ancestry on average. Suggesting East Balkan Slavs acquired more paleo-balkan ancestry via assimilation tactics as opposed to the west Balkans which largely replaced a good majority of the native populace.

Your YDNA "I2a2a" was minimally found in ancient samples of the East Balkans and is most common in Albanians Greeks and Aromanians today. With a decent representation among Pomaks. By paternal descent you could well be paleo-balkan. This is not the case for most of your ancestral kin whom fall into I2a1b-Din, a near entirely slavic branch with bottlenecks and founder effects. Learn to separate facts from reality as best as possible and set your desires aside.

----------


## Yetos

> Here is your answer 
> 
> Greek Branch of R1a
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....IMG_3243.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



*With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe* 
*the lowest Altaic component in all IE*, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
*Only one sample of Ydna N found until now,* at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
*There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.*

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
*GENNETICS SPEAK*
*if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas*
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics, 
*Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,*
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen, 
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc 
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component 

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture, 
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the *Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world,* is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks*

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw 
*did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
*Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
*using *Schopenhauer by the book*, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

*BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS 
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS, 


Seima Turbino culture

*The*Altai Mountains*in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] 

*migrations spread the Uralic languagesacross Europe and Asia*.[11] 

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] [15]

*BLEVINS 
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO 
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

*I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits. 


*SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

* :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:  
*
*


> Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis





> Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
> Nicholas G. L. Hammond
> Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than *used only in Albania* and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. *For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.*






> *Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino*. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.





> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum





> *Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture)* vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.





> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum






SO THIS MEMBER,
*BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.*
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
*NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS* 
*WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt* (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero)  :Petrified: 
*SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES,* (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE)  :Petrified:  
*WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N*  (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation)  :Petrified: 

 :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified: 
*
WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?*
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys. 

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
*But No*, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ...... 
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way.  :Innocent:   :Innocent:   :Innocent: 


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages? 
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?

----------


## blevins13

> *With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe* 
> *the lowest Altaic component in all IE*, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
> *Only one sample of Ydna N found until now,* at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
> *There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.*
> 
> Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
> *GENNETICS SPEAK*
> *if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas*
> which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics, 
> ...


Again bla...bla no academic references just bitter bickering.

Metallurgy spreading with Uralic language, this would be quite a scene. However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-european migrations. So Seima Turbino and Mycenaeans remains a valid connection. 

As for the Vucidol - Mycenaean connection, that is hard to bridge due to the following....
IMG_3243.jpg


But keep trying or Patroclus is gone and that will be quite a loss.




Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Yetos

> again bla...bla no academic references just bitter bickering.
> 
> Metallurgy spreading with uralic language, this would be quite a scene. However, recent genetic testings of sites in south siberia and kazakhstan (andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via indo-european migrations. So seima turbino and mycenaeans remains a valid connection. 
> 
> As for the vucidol - mycenaean connection, that is hard to bridge due to the following....
> IMG_3243.jpg
> 
> 
> but keep trying or patroclus is gone and that will be quite a loss.
> ...




BYE BYE BLEVINS13

Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.





> Here is your answer 
> 
> Greek Branch of R1a
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....Attachment 11005
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



*With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe* 
*the lowest Altaic component in all IE*, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
*Only one sample of Ydna N found until now,* at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
*There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.*

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
*GENNETICS SPEAK*
*if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas*
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics, 
*Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,*
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen, 
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc 
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component 

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture, 
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the *Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world,* is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks*

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw 
*did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
*Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
*using *Schopenhauer by the book*, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

*BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS 



Seima Turbino culture

*The*Altai Mountains*in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] 

*migrations spread the Uralic languagesacross Europe and Asia*.[11] 

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] [15]

*BLEVINS 
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO 
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

*I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits. 


*SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

* :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:  
*
*


> Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis





> Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
> Nicholas G. L. Hammond
> Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than *used only in Albania* and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. *For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.*






> *Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino*. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.





> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum





> *Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture)* vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.





> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum






SO THIS MEMBER,
*BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.*
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
*NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS* 
*WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt* (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero)  :Petrified: 
*SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES,* (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE)  :Petrified:  
*WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N* (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation)  :Petrified: 

 :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified: 
*
WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?*
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys. 

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
*But No*, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ...... 
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way.  :Innocent:   :Innocent:   :Innocent: 


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages? 
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?


*a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism*
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
*while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic

BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE 


The Academic pappers you ask
*
 Marchenko et al. 2017.*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 447.*^* A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517*^* Frachetti, Michael David, _Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia_, pp. 52–3*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 444-7.*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 443-4.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Anthony 2007.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". _Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia_. *35* (3): 36–53. doi:10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003.*^* Chernykh 1992, p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.*^* Christian 1998.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Keys, David (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". _BBC History Magazine_. *10* (1): 9.*^* Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", _Antiquity_, *85* (328): 583–598, doi:10.1017/S0003598X00067971*^* E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004*^* C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296*^* "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173*^* http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/a...view/4182/4018*^* Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", _Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences_, *271* (1542): 941–947, doi:10.1098/rspb.2004.2698, PMC 1691686, PMID 15255049*^* Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", _Human Genetics_, *126* (3): 395–410, doi:10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0, PMID 19449030
*


bye bye little Goebels*

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Not really. Nothing he said has a complete basis. Proto-Balto-Slavic was said to be related to possibly Proto-Dacian and Proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian is not the same as thracian. Neither is Proto-Balto-Slavic the same as Slavic. The further you go back especially to the Proto-Balto-Slavic union, the difference with other indo european branches are far less so than is the case today. Also none of the thracians or illyrians discovered, or the ancient Greeks, had any I2a-Din/or R1a Z280/M458. The only R1a was the bronze age thracian. Even then, no one belongs to that branch. Certainly not common in Slavs any ways. From a a paternal Y standpoint, So far Slavs are not connected to any of them. Only very anciently with the M417 split with the Z93 Thracian. Also, from a autosomal standpoint, the illyrians and Thracians were Italian,Albanian Greek like. Less in the case of Balkan Slavs, and near non-existent in West or East Slavs.
> 
> What is more probable and likely is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were closer to the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians before they left the steppes. Proto-Balto-Slavs were likely akin to Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians, representing northern cousins that never migrated to the Balkans. Only with the fragile state of Rome, and the collapse of these peoples did the Sklaveni migrate South. They likely were always dealing with Daco-Thracians on the far northern border with them. Also, Most scholars acknowledge not all Illyrians were homogenous. They also likely were not linguistically connected in a recent sense either. Possibly branching out from the rest with the breakup of Indo-European. 
> 
> Perhaps some Geto-Dacians/Free Dacians that migrated north of the Danube formed a base for what would become Proto-Slavic. But in all likliehood they're distantly related and are merely northern cousins of the Thracians and Dacians, not those people themselves. Genetics/Archaeology will trump propaganda every time. So far Illyrians were R1b/J2/V13(all found predominantly in Albanians), Proto-Greeks were J2a, predominantly found in Greeks, and R1a-Z93 in a Bronze Age, likely Proto-Thracian grave(which is not recently related to Balto-Slavic Z280/M458 but distantly(5-6 thousand ypb).
> 
> No one can deny South Slavs have Paleo-Balkan heritage, both autosomally, and through Y chromosome. Especially Bulgarians/Macedonians. However, to say All these paleo-balkan people were Slavic and further from Albanians and Greeks is about as propagandized as you can get. Whats more correct is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were ancestral cousins of Proto-Thracians/Proto-Dacians, only migrating as Proto-Slavs from the north much later, as opposed to their distant southern kin, who left the steppe before many of these lineages differentiated themselves.


R1a- Z93 you said it was from Tracian iron age, right?!

----------


## Yetos

....................................

----------


## Dibran

> R1a- Z93 you said it was from Tracian iron age, right?!


Bronze age actually. Someone responded to you last page. It was before 1000BC. Genetically it came out North-European like. In all probability a Proto-Thracian.

----------


## blevins13

> BYE BYE BLEVINS13
> 
> Forum members have memmory on what is published,
> most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
> look how many years you are,
> Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are going crazy man it is not me ....I did not create this 
R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

I happened to agree with this. That is all. 

And I did not write this Hammond did.

Tumulus Burials in South Albania 

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond



The language used by Yetos is inappropriate.
I invite moderator to do something here.

And Yetos don’t copy from Wikipedia, show us academic papers for your statements.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

[QUOTE=Yetos;575307]BYE BYE BLEVINS13

Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.





*With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe* 
*the lowest Altaic component in all IE*, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
*Only one sample of Ydna N found until now,* at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
*There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.*

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
*GENNETICS SPEAK*
*if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas*
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics, 
*Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,*
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen, 
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc 
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component 

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture, 
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the *Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world,* is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks*

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw 
*did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
*Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
*using *Schopenhauer by the book*, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

*BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS 
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS, 


Seima Turbino culture

*The*Altai Mountains*in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] 

*migrations spread the Uralic languagesacross Europe and Asia*.[11] 

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] [15]

*BLEVINS 
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO 
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

*I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits. 


*SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

* :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:  
*
*










SO THIS MEMBER,
*BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.*
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
*NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS* 
*WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt* (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero)  :Petrified: 
*SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES,* (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE)  :Petrified:  
*WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N* (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation)  :Petrified: 

 :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified:   :Petrified: 
*
WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?*
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys. 

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
*But No*, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ...... 
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way.  :Innocent:   :Innocent:   :Innocent: 


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages? 
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?


*a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism*
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
*while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic

BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE 


The Academic pappers you ask
*
 Marchenko et al. 2017.*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 447.*^* A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517*^* Frachetti, Michael David, _Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia_, pp. 52–3*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 444-7.*^* Anthony 2007, pp. 443-4.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Anthony 2007.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". _Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia_. *35* (3): 36–53. doi:10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003.*^* Chernykh 1992, p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.*^* Christian 1998.^ Jump up to:_a_ _b_ Keys, David (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". _BBC History Magazine_. *10* (1): 9.*^* Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", _Antiquity_, *85* (328): 583–598, doi:10.1017/S0003598X00067971*^* E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004*^* C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296*^* "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173*^* http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/a...view/4182/4018*^* Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", _Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences_, *271* (1542): 941–947, doi:10.1098/rspb.2004.2698, PMC 1691686, PMID 15255049*^* Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", _Human Genetics_, *126* (3): 395–410, doi:10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0, PMID 19449030
*


bye bye little Goebels*[/QUOT

Why is it so hard for you to accept the facts?
You have to be able to hear other sides arguments!
Its time of iPhone and people have access instantly to information! 
Greek historiography has too many lies, no one believes them! Be kind, if you get nervous its not going to do any good to anyone, even to the moderators

----------


## zanipolo

> You are going crazy man it is not me ....I did not create this 
> R1a Greek Branch
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> I happened to agree with this. That is all. 
> 
> And I did not write this Hammond did.
> 
> Tumulus Burials in South Albania 
> ...


https://www.academia.edu/34656422/Al...lasgian_thesis

Achilles people where a branch of pelagasians

----------


## Yetos

@ blevins13

*these are not academic words.
These are words of your mind.
YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ALBANIAN MARK ?? 

*


> tumulus burial *(generally accepted as marker of illyrians)* in macedonia close to mount olympus before mycenaean expansion.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail
> 
> 
> sent from my iphone using eupedia forum





> Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis





> Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
> Nicholas G. L. Hammond
> Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than *used only in Albania* and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. *For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.*






> *Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino*. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.





> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


SO AFTER ALL THESE.
AND NO MATTER THE ANSWERS WERE GIVEN TO YOU,
YOU CONTINUE TO SNEAK AND HIDE, AND SPREAD YOUR ULTRANATIONALISTIC POSITION,
LITTLE A TRUE GOEBELS CHILD, ONLY YOU NEVER THOUGHT THE RESULTS OF SCHOPENHAUER,
WHICH FINALLY THE FIRST WHO BELIEVE HIS LIE, IS THE ONE WHO ATTACK WITH LIES,

AND SINCE YOU DID ASK A SORRY FOR YOUR SPECULATED, POISONOUS POSTS, At LEAST TO THE MYCENEANS AND PATROKLOS WHO MADE THEM URALIC / Fino-Ugric SPEAKING 
*I WILL EXPOSE YOU TO THE LIMIT.


**Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw 
*did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
*Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
*using *Schopenhauer by the book*, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

*BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS 



Seima Turbino culture

*The*Altai Mountains*in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] 

*migrations spread the Uralic languagesacross Europe and Asia*.[11] 

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] [15]

*BLEVINS 
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO 
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

*I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits. 


*SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

Understand it
these happens when you cultivate wrong ideas, to prevail
and use Schopehauer art of being right, to persuade about wrong being right
the effect maybe be permanent in your brain.*

----------


## blevins13

> @ blevins13
> 
> *these are not academic words.
> These are words of your mind.
> YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
> PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
> LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIAN MARK ?? 
> 
> *
> ...


I think moderators should stop this inappropriate language and insults.... or they let us know that this is a place that anyone can bark what they can so we at least know what we are dealing with!!!!!!!!???????



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## Yetos

> I think moderators should stop this inappropriate language and insults.... or they let us know that this is a place that anyone can bark what they can so we at least know what we are dealing with!!!!!!!!???????
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


*I think Gods should punish you,
**For Insulting Ancient cultures,*

*Listen what you say,*
*''TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIA'', 
*So Mycaenae was Albania? right?
and Makedonians were Albanians? right?

*and when not succeded to convice you started to tell us that Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?*
How pathetic now to call moderators,Better call Gods to help you, if they can, 
I wonder in what species they transform you.

*you have been warned*, that you move in strange fields, *paranoia fields*.
but you kept scratching your back on the bat.
*I wonder !!!! did you change a little bit your mind?*

----------


## Johane Derite

> *Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?*


He never said any of that. You are one of the most dishonest, insulting, bad faith people on this site. All you do is manipulate and agitate. All blevins did was post what Maciamo has written on Eupedia, and he shared a quote of NGL Hammond about the archaeological record, and how there are clashes in the narrative that you support.

----------


## blevins13

> @ blevins13
> 
> *these are not academic words.
> These are words of your mind.
> YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
> PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
> LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIAN MARK ?? 
> 
> *
> ...



Members of this forum, I am not sneaking anything, this is public info from the links below . I tent to agree with this
Eupedia:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

Or here

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingL...eceMycenae.htm

So read and draw your own conclusions. Wrong ideas right ideas we are all here to learn not to be insulted. 


Mycenaeans

The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans, part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.

Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus. They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece.

Records on the Mycenaeans are very sparse, usually being limited to myths and legends. Many of their leaders are semi or wholly legendary. The latter are backed in lilac, usually for events prior to the Trojan War. Mycenaeans also established trading outposts on the Anatolian coast, and were possibly the Ahhiyawa mentioned in Hittite texts from the mid-fifteenth century onwards. Their civilisation seems to have flourished immediately following the fall of Crete, which seems to have dominated the Greeks up to that point.

(Information by Peter Kessler, with additional information by Edward Dawson, from The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony, from The Illiad, Homer (Translated by E V Rieu, Penguin, 1950), and from External Links: Haplogroup R1a (Eupedia Genetics), and DNA clue to origins of early Greek civilization (BBC News), and Grave of the Griffin Warrior.)



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## blevins13

> *I think Gods should punish you,
> **For Insulting Ancient cultures,*
> 
> *Listen what you say,*
> *''TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIA'', 
> *So Mycaenae was Albania? right?
> and Makedonians were Albanians? right?
> 
> *and when not succeded to convice you started to tell us that Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?*
> ...


Here you go again like it our not i am quoting Hammond, is this a lie? 

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727...6_num_4_1_1174

Tumulus Burials in South Albania 

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.





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## Yetos

Yes I know, The Eupedia articles, 

but
*similarities with Seima Turbino
Does not mean Seima Turbino,*
so your sterile determine opinion, Kurgan= Greeks vs Tumuli=Albanians does not fit.

the problem of IE theories for Greeks, and the oposite, of Greeks in IE world and expansion is bigger,
and one more time I say it fits in all 3 theories, yet does fit to noone.

So lets Stop smashing the Mosquito, and swallow the rope, 
cause if want propagandistic attacking policies, I can bring you many, as to anyone,
But that poison brain and heart.

----------


## blevins13

> Yes I know, The Eupedia articles, 
> 
> but
> *similarities with Seima Turbino
> Does not mean Seima Turbino,*
> so your sterile determine opinion, Kurgan= Greeks vs Tumuli=Albanians does not fit.
> 
> the problem of IE theories for Greeks, and the oposite, of Greeks in IE world and expansion is bigger,
> and one more time I say it fits in all 3 theories, yet does fit to noone.
> ...


There is no poison here, only information that already exists.... and I bring it here for the members as an option that I agree with. If you have more theories for Mycenaean and their link to Macedonians bring them for the members of this forum to evaluate. 


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## Yetos

> There is no poison here, only information that already exists.... and I bring it here for the members as an option that I agree with. If you have more theories for Mycenaean and their link to Macedonians bring them for the members of this forum to evaluate. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



*Who cares about your opinion?
You Have already prove who you are,

Your Informations, that YOU Provide to us,
that Myceneans were Heavily Altaic,*  :Shocked: *
SpokE Uralic Finno-Ugric,*  :Shocked: *
And Had Hg N*  :Shocked: *
Tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian mark !!!*  :Shocked: 
*and all because you can not distinguish simmilar from being.

YOU ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS.
You Can NOT even Distinguish the similarity of group, whith the Belong to a group
And I wonder why I still Speak to you,

BYE BYE ........


At Least Ridiculous posts and opinions, Not to use another word,

Your answer is Given by Lazarides papper 2017,

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

Offcourse 2 years now,
And After all this sound in Forum about this papper that shocked many in scientific community,
you never read it, or you will not,
At least let me inform you, it is a search widely accepted, which offcourse will improve in Future,
but fits with current data scientific community has.
Well keep your crap-science of Tumuli is only Albanian and Albanian mark,
who cares, 

ACCEPT IT, and if you can't Swallow It,

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40791188

from the link :
*
_But the much more minor influx of Steppe people into Greece compared with northern Europe has led some to conclude that this migration could not have effected a change in language. This might imply that progenitors of Greek - and perhaps other Indo-European languages - were already established in the Aegean by the time the Steppe people arrived._*



BTW
You know Echidna, stays always at same point, shrinking her body around her shelf, trusting in her venom power, never leaves her 'place'
until her head is smashed. 



there are many descent Albanians here*, 
*can't someone explain to him* the Geneticks, 
and the Greek issue on Antoni's work? that Antoni's theory of horse wheel and chariot, can not trully explain Greeks and Myceneans, not even Anatolian ones
and in Greece there is chance to spoke IE much before steppe reach N Europe and minor Asia.


Blevins 
from the links

_Archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, who was not involved in the work, agrees. “The results have now opened up the next chapter in the genetic history of western Eurasia—that of the Bronze Age Mediterranean.”

_

----------


## blevins13

> *Who cares about your opinion?
> You Have already prove who you are,
> 
> Your Informations, that YOU Provide to us,
> that Myceneans were Heavily Altaic,* *
> SpokE Uralic Finno-Ugric,* *
> And Had Hg N* *
> Tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian mark !!!* 
> *and all because you can not distinguish simmilar from being.
> ...


This is the answer from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

No need to argue about me argue with me.

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## Yetos

> This the answer from Lazaridis (2017)
> Quote
> “Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



hahaha

*which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.*
same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! *and almost 0% Altaic*, and no hg N
*which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
But no R1b, no R1a, 
as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
*Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
while the archaological evidences of coming of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin as express by Blegen and Giannopoulos fits better to steppe theories via Yamnaa.
yet these theories from N Balkans still can not explain the Greco-Aryan, but can exlain the Greco-Latin,
It is a big puzzle, which is partially solved according each theory, but can not solved/unite 

Before you spread any more poison I suggest you to find BMAC and Andronovo,
the key to all theories of IE is there,
and accept a sphairical view, comparing theories, before you make them a law
and leave the Albanian and only the Albanian, cause if enter Linguistic/gennetics we will speak for years.

----------


## blevins13

> hahaha
> 
> *which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.*
> same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! *and almost 0% Altaic*, and no hg N
> *which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
> But no R1b, no R1a, 
> as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
> *Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
> the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
> ...


As I said before it seems that Patroclus has left the building......and imagine what follows after..::: if this looks like poison to you that is your problem not mine.


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## blevins13

> hahaha
> 
> *which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.*
> same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! *and almost 0% Altaic*, and no hg N
> *which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
> But no R1b, no R1a, 
> as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
> *Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
> the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
> ...




You posted Wikipedia to make your point as much as you can make a point from Wikipedia.

As follows:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seim...ino_phenomenon


In Wikipedia you will find also the opposite of your point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


As I said before Uralic and metallurgy do not fit together. 

The Altai Mountains in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon.[27] It is conjectured that changes in climate in this region around 2000 BC and the ensuing ecological, economic and political changes triggered a rapid and massive migration westward into northeast Europe, eastward into China and southward into Vietnam and Thailand [28] across a frontier of some 4,000 miles.[27] This migration took place in just five to six generations and led to peoples from Finland in the west to Thailand in the east employing the same metal working technology and, in some areas, horse breeding and riding.[27] It is further conjectured that the same migrations spread the Uralic group of languages across Europe and Asia: some 39 languages of this group are still extant, including Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian.[27] However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions.[29][30]


Enjoy 


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## Aspar

I know it's off topic but I have seen some Greeks with y-dna R1a-Z93 on some of these forums...
One of the deep branches I've seen is R-F2935, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F2935/
This is too old to seem connected with some medieval or modern Turkic people and dates as you see to the Bronze Age.
The steppe element in the Mycenaeans could have very well been brought by some R1a-Z93 warriors when we consider that R1a-Z93 was found in Bronze age Bulgaria.
As such, coupled with the similarities that Blevin mentioned above in regards of material culture, Seima-Turbino seems as a very good candidate...
Also, these Mycenaeans look very eastern to my eyes:

----------


## Yetos

> I know it's off topic but I have seen some Greeks with y-dna R1a-Z93 on some of these forums...
> One of the deep branches I've seen is R-F2935, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F2935/
> This is too old to seem connected with some medieval or modern Turkic people and dates as you see to the Bronze Age.
> The steppe element in the Mycenaeans could have very well been brought by some R1a-Z93 warriors when we consider that R1a-Z93 was found in Bronze age Bulgaria.
> As such, coupled with the similarities that Blevin mentioned above in regards of material culture, Seima-Turbino seems as a very good candidate...
> Also, these Mycenaeans look very eastern to my eyes:




Yes I know,
But can not find which tomb it was, 
If we are reffering to Kazanlak tombs, they are very very new, 

Notice the 3 options

1 is to be older than Srubnaya so to be pre or proto Thracian from early devastations

2a is to be *Srubnaya* culture, 

2b is to be the continuity of Srubnaya, a Scythian from minor Scythia

3 is to be the Skudra, the Persian Satraps in Thrace if the tomb is after 500-550 BC

from what I found genetists call him the lonely one migrant.

If you can found the date of tomb and what auDna or what origin % will help a lot,

----------


## LABERIA

Why are allowed _ad-hominem_ attacks in this thread?

----------


## Yetos

> Why are allowed _ad-hominem_ attacks in this thread?



indeed it is a very nice movie

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Bronze age actually. Someone responded to you last page. It was before 1000BC. Genetically it came out North-European like. In all probability a Proto-Thracian.


Thanks. Seems it points to reject some of the anti Albanian agendas.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> BYE BYE BLEVINS13
> Forum members have memmory on what is published,
> most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
> look how many years you are,
> Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.
> *With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe* 
> *the lowest Altaic component in all IE*, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
> *Only one sample of Ydna N found until now,* at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
> *There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.*
> ...


As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.

----------


## LABERIA

*Hellenism and the making of modern Greece: time, language, space*




> *Antonis Liakos (Athens)*
> 
> *Learning to be Greeks through the appropriation of historical time, language identity and space symbolism
> *
> 
> I awoke with this marble head in my hands
> which exhausts my elbows and I do not know where to
> set it down.
> It was falling into the dream as I was coming out of the
> ...


* Antonis Liakos-Historian* Curriculum Vitae

----------


## Yetos

> As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.


hm
might not
might yes,

it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better, 
Don't you think.

Besides

The resulting radiocarbon (14C) chronology for the western Siberian sites (22nd–20th centuries cal BC) 
Notice the above is the max back, they centuries from Central Asia to reach West Siberia

Hettites who had simmilar are about 1600 BC

Same is the high change of Minyan (NOTICE MINYANS, Not MINOANS) control and culture
to Mycenean control and culture,
ατ 1650 when Hettites are in minor Asia, Myceneans are already here,

so you have to face the dilema,
If Myceneans are from the area, in which Hettites enter, How come they had such similarity, as pre-Hettit culture, Notice Mycenean tombs before 1650 BC, Hatussa 1600 BC. if remember correct.
then you go to the North way, from Yamnaa, to Balkans to South Greece,
there is the other entrance to Greece, 
Here you have to find the old Blegen theory, the archiological connection, as described by Giannopoulos.

Why? Cause Mycenean are also the Long Corridor culture, the δρομος as called today, the Σικος and the Πτερον a structure not found in Asia till then, no matter Megalithic structures are even today magnificent.
and their Kurgan are estimated to evolve their way, while their primary earlier form 
so Myceneans and kurgans already existed from 2200 BC, in co-existance with Minyans, ?
I did not remember the Archaiologist who found such in Lerna and Leykada.
besides the Mycaenean mettalurgy has nothing to do with Seima Turbino, or with Hettites mettalurgy,
Mycenean is tin vs Copper, Seima is Arsenic vs copper, 
Almost same littlelittle bit earlier few centuries but mainly 1 century earlier is the Vucedol-Vatin devstation to Greece, mainly to area of proto-Greeks
the tombs of Cetina as possibly is known to you,
besides we see a strange change to tomb looking like small boxes, non Minoan, since they put them to pottery,
Anyway, it is difficult to distinguish, 
but generally we see these strange,
Minyan culture, certainly autochthonus, possible G2 and other, no need to search now
Minoan culture which is J2a with no steppe
*No Steppe admixture culture until 2300 BC.*
Vucedol vatin culture entrance from North (para-Cetinas) possibly some Hg I
Mycenean culture which is J2a which is ave 14% simmilar even today after the Slavic invasions,

Both populations evolute to Greek till 1600 BC
The Nothern are the proto-Greek or NW dialects or Paleo-Balkan in the area where georgiev puts them
the other is Mycenean and S Greek, a substractum that creates also the inner aspirations of evolution of Greek language, to classical, while some return back due to Makedonian influence in Koine (φορθακα - Βατραχις, Φρεαρ-Βρυση)

the only entrance from East in that era, in the Mycenean world
is the Arzawwa-Asuwa when were hunted by Hettites,
so how come this steppe 14% enter to Myceneans and not to Minoans,
The answer is somewhere above,
or somewhere we can not see until today,

about R1a in balkans
Balkans have a pecculiar very high diversity of R1a,
in other contitions the numerous varities could claim as homeland of r1a Balkans
but we consider it as a sink phenomenon,
the r1a -Z93 found in Thracian tomb is at least a millenium younger,
yet this does not exclude the possibility of being far ancient to pre and proto Thracian or forms that spread from yamnaa
But most possible for me is to be Scythian from Srubnaya.

Anyway Seima Turbino was a culture of N Hg.
although their usage of chariots etc are simmilar to Mycaenean,
but not identical mettalurgy, *tin vs arsenic 

The time Distance from W Siberia Seima Turbino to the high transform of culture to Mycenean surely is about 4 centuries, and is allowing such aproache and possibility
Yet the other elements of myceane, as also their genetics, and the continuity of Minyans and NW Greeks hmm ... pale colour
*the ave 14% steppe could enter from Arzawa, from Vucedol, even from women slaves and marriage, 
if 1 out 10 male of a generation takes foreign women, it is about 5% to next male generation?, or I am wrong,
I am not certain for above but seems logicalThat is all,
suggest you see the minyan minoan mycenean pottery to understand.

Aditional if you want to search deeper,
you must search how much Altaic component have the R1a cultures from the main 3 types of R1a in Balkans,
cause in population that has 0 Altaic, it is impossible to be ancestor of a population of that was heaby in Altaic.
*so if Myceneans are indead connected with R1a-Z93 of Thracian tombs in Bulgaria then this R1a-Z93 should have limited to zero Altaic component,*

Until then the possibilty of Thracian and Mycenean connection via a pre Mycaene, pre Thracian population from somewhere Ukraine and generally N Pontos area is alive, but does not certified,

I hope i make my shelf understood.

*to conclude
The gennetics of Mycaeneans Show rather an adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility,
than a genetical relativity, and continuity.
*and until now, this adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility culture, 
is not certified if that enter from S Caucasos before or same time with Hettites, straight from minor Asia,
or via N of Pontos areas. (today ukraine, Georgia, Abhazia etc) via the Thrace. (today Bulgaria)

a good example is Ireland,
no matter the Western country of Europe, and need 2 times to pass the sea,
Yet the Steppe and Altaic components percentages are significant, and surely describe and drive us to certain conclusions
but that does not happens in Helladic space,

*Period

Conclusion*
So if someone wrote in Forum about Illyria, whatever he wanted, with easy conclusions,
cause there is a late such post somewhere there
this does NOT mean is correct, but rather a biased post, possible for inner-consumption,
We are used to such 'works' of easy conclusion, for easy mass consuption,
sometimes Doctoras are giving to such works, specially to Golden boys of political parties,.
What face here by this 'work', -lets name it such- is this: How come a culture of hg N in 4 centuries pass to a culture of J2 far away, with different genetics, meaning ho Inheritage.
so a possible solution is via R1a -Z93, *NOTICE A Possible*
*so 'OK', we found Gold' Myceneans were Siberians''*   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:  
it is typical and easy pass to ignorants, if you make amazing cover, and nice images, and say words like 'Only in'
But is rubbish*

the Logic of such works, is the Bellow
Guitar is a Instrument (music)
Policeman is an instrument (of law)
so Policeman is a Guitar. 

*Do you understand why I wanted to stop Blevins13, before say his 'opinion' which is a work in Illyria forum, but tottaly crap.
But he insisted to spread the crap work, the logic of policeman is a Guitar.
Don't worry, such Forums exist many in Greece, and all over the world,
Using their 'proves' and Logic, I can prove you that Greeks came from Andromeda 200 000 before, 
and Seima-turbino were reptilians from the warm area of planet Mars,
I warn many times the Albanians of Forum about a stupid tv-person, who can explain and prove whatever, in Top Channel,
Not to believe him. 

look at him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpraT2zpRLQ
he can persuade you that earth is empty inside, and monsters live there, locked, waiting to come out,
He almost persuade Greeks before 1 decade that Incas were Greeks,
it is pathetic, to be easily conviced, *and worst is to produce such.*

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ; 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
All rest is on you...

----------


## Yetos

I know most of scholar who do not believe makedonian were Greeks,
But this belong also to above post I wrote,

There is an evolution of aspiration from Proto-Greek to Attic and etc S Greek languages,
that is noticed and specified many times, and for many is a distinguish among Greeks and 'non Greeks'
Some consider Greeks only the Mycenean World, and not the NW dialects,
the ancient Makedonian Language is written by Hesychios of Alexandreia, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

generally there is a difference among proto-Makedonians and Makedonian Kingdom Makedonians
the primary Makedonians are the Lokroi, of Upper Makedonia
and the Argeiades (the Dynasty) of central Makedonia, 

Secondary group is The Brygians 
the term Edessa is from Brygian origin.
Herodotus places them to Thracians, 
modern Linguists consider them as Paleo-Balkans, Centum with Satem cover due to Thracians,
The Brygian homeland is in today Albania, 
When the Illyrians came they were Pushed to Makedonia and Paionia (today Slavic Makedonia)
They finally left for minor Asia, while their remnants are the Mygdones, 
they fully assimilated to makedonian kingdom,
There is strange connection among Brygians and Makedonians, a hiden relativity, a mystery,
Notice when Alexander was in Gordion Phrygia, did not sleep, cause he expected and hoped to that connection,
so Phrygians support him against Persia,

a Third nation is Bottiaioi, 
Strabo names them as Cretans in origin,

Now I will refer to Aristoteles,
Aristoteles maention the Dodona, the most Sacred place of NW Greek dialect speakers
the other is central Greece the river Hellanas, the games
the games of Hellanas were moved to Olympia to make the Olympic games.
well Aristoteles Uses 2 words for the people and priests of Dodona Epiros, 
ΓΡΑΙΚΟΙ, ΣΕΛΛΟΙ, Graikoi, Selloi
meaning Greek and Hellanes, (Sol <-> Hellios)

Yet Phillip of Makedon, moves to Samothraca in Thrace, to the ancient Kabeires to get married, a priestress
So the Makedonian Kingdom is mainly a unification among the Makedonians and the Brygians,
which later, sometimes violent, assimilated the Cretans Bottiaioi.

*So*
*Primary thoughts of those who did not accept ancient Makedonians as Greek nation is because they were not Myceneans,* and outside Mycenean world, 
Makedonian Necropolis have their own style Tumuli, sometimes very affected by Mycenean arxhitecture and style.
Yet Makedonians never claimed Mycenean ancestry as far as I know, but from Heracles, they were Herakleidae,
and because lately I heard about Hercules = Mycaene, 
yet in Sparta we see that Hercules was introduce by Dorians, (and was not an Atreides, meaning Hercules although born in Argos might not be connected with Mycenean,)
(Argos gives 2 Heroes, Heracles, and Perseus )
who are Hellanes so Selloi, 
herodotus names clearly Dorians Ελληνικον and nothing to do with Pelasgians,
Makedonians also claim Heracles and Dorians as ancestry.
that is why Argeiads (Makedonians) did not burn Sparta,but punish them with eternal shame (Αλεξανδρος και Ελληνες πλην Λακεδαιμονιοις / Notice uses the Mycenean name, not the Dorian one Sparta)

*Secondary is their language*, 
Makedonian dialect or Language belongs to NW Greek ones, the primitive ones comparing the Classical Greek
so Θαλασσα them is Δαλαγχαν Thalassa-Dalagha D-Θ Dios Theos
also Berenika Ferenike 
Kefale Keb(a)le B<-> F (ph)
HERE Must Notice that PIE had B and D and especially Θ maybe did exist in PIE, so NW Greek Dialects -among them Makedonian- are primitive Closer to PIE comparing Classical Greek
and Greek and Brygian were Isotones languages


I wil stop here,
it is like Scands or English with Deutsch, or Dutch with Austrian, 
they are Germanic, with their own way each.
imagine a modern English with a proto-Germanic speaker.
or a Latino-Iberian with a Roman

----------


## markod

> Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ; 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
> All rest is on you...


The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.


No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
Or what happened on Teba River ?
Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...

----------


## Yetos

> No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
> Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
> Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
> Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
> Or what happened on Teba River ?
> Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
> Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
> Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
> Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...
> ...


ok

As you like,

It does not matter what he Believes,
But what The Makedonians Believe,
So what he says, is just ....

and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
since they believe them shelves as Greeks,
why I should change them today,

Why should I trust a modern scholar,
and not the many Ancient sources?
*
Does it matter what Borza believes, 2300 years after?
*When the Makedonians claim other things?
and we have their language written down !!!
At least can Borza tell us wht Language the Makedonians spoke?
I Prefer to believe Strabo book VII chapter 9, who was alive that era,

and plz Don't mix Makedonians with Makedonian kingdom,
makedonian Kingdom had assimilated a lot of thracian tribes.

----------


## blevins13

> ok
> 
> As you like,
> 
> It does not matter what he Believes,
> But what The Makedonians Believe,
> So what he says, is just ....
> 
> and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
> ...


Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

IMG_3245.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## markod

> No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
> Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
> Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
> Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
> Or what happened on Teba River ?
> Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
> Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
> Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
> Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...
> ...


Welll he's wrong. Curtius actually says "_.. understand them better." ._ That suggests Macedonian wasn't completely foreign to Attic speakers.

----------


## LABERIA

But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely *foreign*, but of course nothing to do with slavs.

----------


## markod

> But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely *foreign*, but of course nothing to do with slavs.


You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.

----------


## Fatherland

From what I observed, and I am always right: Only the Albanians ITT wrote sensible posts. 

The others, lashed out with projections of their own insecurities.

----------


## Yetos

> Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.
> 
> IMG_3245.jpg
> 
> 
> from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum



How typical of you





Interesting the observation of yours,
But as always just the serpent spreads poison, *Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,*
Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


*For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

How Others call the Makedonians
*The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
*Naqsh e Rostam* Royal tombs of Achamenides
The Satrapies of Dareios


baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ imâm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asmânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ hya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ\ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ akunauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyathiyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ vazraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm\ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanânâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmiyâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâspahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ Pârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ciça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abaraha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ akunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Haraiva \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazmiš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Gadâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sakâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ Athurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina\ Katpatuka \ Sparda \* Yauna* \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ paradraya \Skudra \ *Yaunâ \ takabarâ* \ Putâyâ \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D

*YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

*Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks *Yauna, Yunan, Yauva*
Most West of Greece call the Greeks as *Greeks,

So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
*We see 2 times the word* Yauna, 
1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia 
2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc


So Blevins13, 
*You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


*THE GREEKS by their modern Persians*

*Yauna =* Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
*Yauna Takabara* (*Makedonians*)
*Yauna Drayahya* (Central Greeks)
*Yauna Paradraya*  (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
*Sparda* (Sparta)


hmm
NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post, 
how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


btw
I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









*Bye bye Blevins13*
*These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.*

----------


## LABERIA

> You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.


Send a PM to him and ask for an explanation.

----------


## LABERIA

> Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.
> 
> IMG_3245.jpg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/

http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/

Very interesting articles. Use the Google translator.

----------


## Yetos

> https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/
> 
> http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/
> 
> Very interesting articles. Use the Google translator.


hahahahaha

*When the fox can not reach the crapes,
say that they sour* 


*Laberia*




as always, the 'I have nothing to say'
*DO THEY LOOK LIKE ANATOLIAN GREEKS TO YOU?*

----------


## Yetos

*Ok another post out of subject* by the 2 certain Albanians (Albano-NAZI)
who always have nothing to say, but they 'say', and only spread poison and throw mud on every thread about Greeks, I will ask to be removed,

----------


## blevins13

> How typical of you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting the observation of yours,
> But as always just the serpent spreads poison, *Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,*
> Again scratching the sheperd's bat.
> ...


I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek

So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Piro Ilir

> hm
> might not
> might yes,
> 
> it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better, 
> Don't you think.
> 
> Besides
> 
> ...


How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.

I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people? 
I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.

We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)

----------


## Yetos

> I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
> Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#Greek
> 
> So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


No comment mr I said, I did not.

----------


## Yetos

> How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.
> 
> I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people? 
> I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.
> 
> We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)


Ydna Hg N3a1-B211
*
Pirro, plz don't be like the other 2 'known' guys,*

here is your answer,
and plz go to that stupid of Illyria forum, and tell to stop crap, and toilet work pappers.


''Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages.''

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6301604#bbib49

----------


## Piro Ilir

> The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.


Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...

They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war. 
Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.

From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)

This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.

----------


## Yetos

> Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...
> 
> They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war. 
> Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.
> 
> From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
> Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)
> 
> This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.


By whom they were considered such?

Strabo is Clear,
Many ancient are clear,
and The Persians distinguish them from Asian Greeks, from Greeks, from Sparta, But consider them as Hellenes,
Yauna Takabara,

So why Persian consider them Greeks?

----------


## Piro Ilir

> How typical of you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting the observation of yours,
> But as always just the serpent spreads poison, *Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,*
> Again scratching the sheperd's bat.
> ...


Yauna takabata, means , Greeks with hats like shields. Illyrians looked as mushrooms due to their hats. Just to mention

----------


## Piro Ilir

> You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.


Hellenes, is endonym
Greeks, is exonym

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
"In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...

----------


## Yetos

> Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
> "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them, 
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means *patriot*, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.

----------


## LABERIA

*Barbarian*The _Oxford English Dictionary_ defines five meanings of the noun _barbarian_, including an obsolete Barbary usage. 
*2.* _Hist_. *a.* One not a Greek.

----------


## LABERIA

: "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." 

*Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31*

----------


## Yetos

*Hahaha* 

Laberia strikes again

Barbaros, a greek word identified even in Linear B

means the ones who when speaks make noise, 
notice the dog barks

Linear b pa-pa-ro
modern Greek pa-pa-ries paparas

you are funny

----------


## Yetos

> : "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, *but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour*, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." 
> 
> *Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31*



I will stay at the one bold,
*he is not a Greek, 
BUT he is not a Barbarian also 

*Hahaha

*good morning,*
*you make my day,*

----------


## Milan.M

They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.

In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.

Myths;
Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.

It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.

The history of Macedonia may be said to begin with Amyntas' reign 540 – 498 BC . He was the first of its rulers to have diplomatic relations with other states.
The rest of the kings seem mythical about the Argead dynasty.If we are to believe this story we should accept the Argeads as later immigrants in the land.

If it was from Peloponese Argos or Argos Orestikon in upper Macedonia? Seems that in the myth they are connected to Argos in Peloponese,made up or not that is how they claimed Greek ancestry.

----------


## Johane Derite

Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French". 

Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:

For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.

So the reconstruction of this name would be **diwo-g'enh1ēs.* 

**w* disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
**o* becomes *a* in Thracian as in Albanian;
**g'* becomes *z* in Thracian as in Albanian (this is compatible with Albanian d, which could continue* *dz < *g'*)
Problematic is *i* from **ē*, as we know that in Albanian **ē > *ā > o*. So albanian differs from Thracian here.

On the basis of this name we could say that a hypothetical Thracian-Albanian subgroup split from the paleo-balkan group as PIE **ē* was still **ē*. 

This could be comparable with the situation in the Germanic languages (*ē > Gothic e > Late-Got. i, *ē > North-, Westgermanic *ā).

*diwo-g'enh1ēs would develop to Proto-Albanian *di(w)a-dźenēs > *djađnāh > *za(đ)no > *zənə > Alb. Tosk *zer / Gheg *zn. 


The matter of the fact is that Thracian is a paleo-balkan language like Greek and Albanian meaning they both come from the same root (this is most likely theory atm). It is incorrect to call a proto langauge common to all these Proto-Greek or Proto-Albanian. If Macedonian is also part of a subgroup that split early off of the common paleo-balkan one, it is incorrect from a scientific perspective to call it a greek dialect, or para-greek.

That the macedonians became hellenized is not being contested. There were Albanian prime ministers that served the ottoman empire, it doesn't make them ethnically turkish though.

----------


## markod

> Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French". 
> 
> Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:
> 
> For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.
> 
> So the reconstruction of this name would be **diwo-g'enh1ēs.* 
> 
> **w* disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
> ...


There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet. 

This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.

You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.

----------


## Johane Derite

> There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet. 
> 
> This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.
> 
> You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.


According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.

----------


## markod

> According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.
> 
> Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.
> 
> And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.


That guy published before the tablets were even found...

----------


## Johane Derite

> That guy published before the tablets were even found...


The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.

----------


## markod

> The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.


In the vicinity? Pella was the capital of Macedon. 

Not one modern scholar is cited in those books.

----------


## Johane Derite

Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014

----------


## markod

> Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014


Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?

----------


## Yetos

> Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014


What?

I suggest look and search again Pieria,

why Pieria is in Argeiad Makedonia and Pierian gulf is in East Makedonia
What was Herakleia city? 
Perdikas 1rst sent them to Paggaion
Perdikas is about 650 BC

Pieria of that Era had 3 parts,
East of Olympus, where we see Thracian orpheus Leivethra,
Makedonian *Herakleia*
Makedonian *Πιμπλεια* 
Mycenean settlements

West of Olympus the Area of Selloi meaning Hellanes 
and the Thettalian Olossoi

the south part of Pieria mt and the valley, 
where *Balla* and *Pydna* cities where, both Makedonian
Interesting City is the *Phylakes*, 

Above Pieria is the Ematheia. the land of kings, the Aigaes.

West of Pieria mt is the Ελυμεια and the *Aiane*,
42% of ancient Makedonian written are from there.
Elymeia is the Upper Makedonia,
an indipented Makedonian kingdom which needed to reach 3 centuries after karanos to enter under Argeiads.

*In Upper Makedonia we have the third Linear writting simmilar to Linear A and Linear B.

*Upper Makedonia was the area from Ohrida to Pindus, including parts of today call Epirus, or Epirus Nova,
In Upper Makedonia except Makedonians also existed Thracian tribes, which either assimilated until Makedonia of Phillip, or devastate North and East*
Uper Makedonia is the core of proto-Greek speaking.

The early Makedonians are not the Makedonian kingdom, as in seen after Phillip 2nd,
rather a population that spoke primitive Greek, and dwell with other Thracian tribes, or Vucedol/Vatin tribes.


@ DERITE
PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
*instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old*
For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
*I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older, and I am sure you will love it.*
and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
*and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

*Until then Bye Bye.




*

----------


## Yetos

> According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.
> 
> Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.
> 
> And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.



*@ DERITE
PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
*instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old*
For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older antica, and I am sure you will love it.
and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
*and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

*Until then Bye Bye.
*

as for the written at last phases of Alexander's campaign.
you will understand when you find Hesychios Lexicon,
First Find and learn Makedonian language,
as written down in Lexicons and manuscripts,
and post us these books,

man I maybe know 10% of their Vocabulary
and you probably know less than 1%
and some of these scholars maybe never hear Makedonian Dialect.
*or even see it written down.*
*
Bye bye again*

----------


## Piro Ilir

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon
> 
> Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
> Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them, 
> worked as anbassador for Xerxes
> But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
> Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
> PhilHellen also means *patriot*, and is a title given by Atheneans.
> his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.
> ...


The myth about Argead dynasty was only written and drawn during the reign of Alexander I of Macedon, soon after the Persian-Hellenic wars. Only afterwards we have the Argead dynasty allowed to participate in Olympic games. Their Greek heritage was testified by Herodotus himself. 
In simple words, only after the vital service given to Greeks by Alexander I the philhellene, his dynasty was accepted as Hellenic.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I will stay at the one bold,
> *he is not a Greek, 
> BUT he is not a Barbarian also 
> 
> *Hahaha
> 
> *good morning,*
> *you make my day,*


Actually, it means typically, Illyrian. Among barbarians, the Illyrians were the most savages ones. 
Not all barbarians were not illiterate and uncivilized. Otherwise, Illyrians were totally uncivilized, illiterate, and super barbarian

----------


## Piro Ilir

> They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.
> 
> In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.
> 
> Myths;
> Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
> Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.
> 
> It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.
> ...


In the time of when the myth was invented, Macedons were an unimportant tribe vassal of Persia. Their Royal house invented this myth for political reasons. The same did the Dorians when they settled in Peloponnese. Attica, Beotia, and Peloponnese were the cradle of civilization.

Ancient Illyrians and Greeks were the opposite of the ancient world. Illyrians the most back warded , and the Greeks the most civilised. What you're excepting from Macedonian Royal house to do? Claiming descent from Illyrians, whom had no written records and whether not any historicity on their origins!!! Or they should claim to be part of the mighty Hellenisms!!!

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?


Their founding myth of their Royal dynasty. According to them, their dynasty was founded circa eighth century bce

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...So simple, but no you will go further and thats mean patriot...If in that time that kind of word existed, anyways patriot for which Country ?When first country in europe is Macedonia all rest were greek city-states also occupied by Macedonians ?1.
PATRIOT a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

We all know that 50,000 Greeks fight with Persians against Macedonians and Alexander , for which part of land for what country ?I dont get it patriot if they were opposites , if they killed each other... ?Alexander and Macedonians killed so much Greeks thats nowdays is funny for Greeks to celebrate Macedonians and Alexander, That like jews to celebrate Hitler and set statue of him in Tel-Aviv...

----------


## Dianatomia

> Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...


A philhellene is not someone who accepted the Greek culture and language. It is someone who loves the Greeks or the Greek cause. It could be non-Greek, like lord Byron in modern times, but in Ancient times the term meant patriot. Someone who put the Greek ethnos above his state. Both Greeks and non-Greeks were described as Philhellenes.

----------


## Dianatomia

> In the time of when the myth was invented, Macedons were an unimportant tribe vassal of Persia. Their Royal house invented this myth for political reasons. The same did the Dorians when they settled in Peloponnese. Attica, Beotia, and Peloponnese were the cradle of civilization.
> 
> Ancient Illyrians and Greeks were the opposite of the ancient world. Illyrians the most back warded , and the Greeks the most civilised. What you're excepting from Macedonian Royal house to do? Claiming descent from Illyrians, whom had no written records and whether not any historicity on their origins!!! Or they should claim to be part of the mighty Hellenisms!!!


This is speculation absent evidence.
Also not quite realistic that the Ancient Macedonians, the people who conquered the known world were ashamed of their origins. And they left no sign of their Illyrian ancestry. Also, their material culture resembled Homeric Greeks and unlike Ancient Macedonian, we can clearly distinguish Illyrian from Greek.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon
> 
> Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
> Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them, 
> worked as anbassador for Xerxes
> But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
> Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
> PhilHellen also means *patriot*, and is a title given by Atheneans.
> his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.
> ...


So terminology is clear , you can create whatever you want , anyways , in all history events Macedonians and Grecians were considered like different ethnicities , so from Ancient Historians...

Attachment 11033Attachment 11034Attachment 11035
Like here Book by Charles Rollin - a French Historian born in 1661. Attachment 11036
Attachment 11037

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon
> 
> Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
> Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them, 
> worked as anbassador for Xerxes
> But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
> Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
> PhilHellen also means *patriot*, and is a title given by Atheneans.
> his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.
> ...



Like every important Historian's statement is different than Greeks...
Like Lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl "The World of Early Macedon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs
Like Eugene Borza eugeneborzamkd.jpg
Arthur de Cobineau maced.jpg
Even your Metropolite of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis 60212431_447715785963386_4189274709260500992_n.jpg
British Historian Marko Attila Hoare 60687274_984306678429499_8411006443427201024_n.jpg

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon
> 
> Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
> Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them, 
> worked as anbassador for Xerxes
> But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
> Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
> PhilHellen also means *patriot*, and is a title given by Atheneans.
> his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.
> ...


Look on this statement , also very logical thing , Slavs also arrived on Territory of Greece, Thessaly , Aegea Macedonia, Central Greece , Peleponnesoss and many other islands...

"There are some differences between all countries, but in general the Slavs also made their way to Greece. We do not draw up statistics any more, but the last data i remember showed that the amount of Slavs in Macedonia is only a little bit higher than in Greece.	

Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
[email protected]
www.igenea.com

So yes logic , if Macedonians are Slavs,a would say same for Greeks... Except "PONTIC" Greeks who are Turks...Anyway there is Epirus Greek,Macedonia Greek, Thessaly Greek, Crete Greek ,Pontic Greek , thats all mean not real Greeks....
Cheers.

----------


## markod

> Their founding myth of their Royal dynasty. According to them, their dynasty was founded circa eighth century bce


They were little more than Doric herdsmen until Philipp II. . Tribes have dynasties too.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> A philhellene is not someone who accepted the Greek culture and language. It is someone who loves the Greeks or the Greek cause. It could be non-Greek, like lord Byron in modern times, but in Ancient times the term meant patriot. Someone who put the Greek ethnos above his state. Both Greeks and non-Greeks were described as Philhellenes.


Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.

Also what you thing about Lecture The World of Early Macedon ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=1s
Or you can skip on 08:35 ?
Or just watch it all...
And stop with your delusions already ,very good Profesors and Historians says opposite than your delusions , there is so much manipulating and inaccurate history set by Westerns... Also 

The first ,,greek" President was Albanian and the first ,,greek" king was German.A nation is created by western powers to act as a buffer against the Muslims,today mixture of ethnicities call themselves ,,pure Hellenes".
greek1.jpggreek2.jpg

Your History is Macedonian , DNA Turkish, first king Otto German,first president Albanian...

----------


## LABERIA

> The myth about Argead dynasty was only written and drawn during the reign of Alexander I of Macedon, soon after the Persian-Hellenic wars. Only afterwards we have the Argead dynasty allowed to participate in Olympic games. Their Greek heritage was testified by Herodotus himself. 
> In simple words, only after the vital service given to Greeks by Alexander I the philhellene, his dynasty was accepted as Hellenic.


And why these Macedonian barbarians were not allowed to participate in the Olympic Games before Alexander I? Obviously mine is a rhetorical question.

----------


## blevins13

> Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.
> 
> Also what you thing about Lecture The World of Early Macedon ?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=1s
> Or you can skip on 08:35 ?
> Or just watch it all...
> And stop with your delusions already ,very good Profesors and Historians says opposite than your delusions , there is so much manipulating and inaccurate history set by Westerns... Also 
> 
> The first ,,greek" President was Albanian and the first ,,greek" king was German.A nation is created by western powers to act as a buffer against the Muslims,today mixture of ethnicities call themselves ,,pure Hellenes".
> ...


George Konduriottea was a philhellenes, therefor a Greek...... 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Yetos

> Look on this statement , also very logical thing , Slavs also arrived on Territory of Greece, Thessaly , Aegea Macedonia, Central Greece , Peleponnesoss and many other islands...
> 
> "There are some differences between all countries, but in general the Slavs also made their way to Greece. We do not draw up statistics any more, but the last data i remember showed that the amount of Slavs in Macedonia is only a little bit higher than in Greece. 
> 
> Roman C. Scholz
> iGENEA
> [email protected]
> www.igenea.com
> 
> ...


Ragna 
still not convincing,

I know the %,
and i my shelf written them down

*but Makedonians are not Slavs,
a part Roman Makedonia, outside the core of Makedonia Proprie is occupied and assimilated by S Slavs,*
*and become a country, due to Vlachs of Krusevo, who did not want to be Bulgarians, neither Serbs,*

the Idea of 'Makedonian identity mainly expressed by Aromani of Krusevo, and you know it well.
Nie bulgar, nie Serb, patrik e Makedonia Orthodox
So If S Slavs and Communist international of g Dimitrov, found wise to baptise a part of S Slavs as Makedonians, to avoid further,
this has nothing to do with truth,

To understand Makedonia proprie,
bellow is an aproach of Argeiades, and Lokroi (Uper)

that is Makedonia proprie,



Notice Bottiaeoi are Creatns,
Mygdones is the remnant of Bryges,
The rest is expansion and assimilation, through centuries, of the tired and isolated Thracian and para Thracian tribes


Yet even in this map I have precaution, 
for example the Selloi, and the Ollossoi, 
that is Makedonia proprie,

----------


## Yetos

> George Konduriottea was a philhellenes, there for a Greek...... 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


termination of philos, change though centuries,
as termination of Daemon
Just what you think when you hear the word Deamon,

*besides for DEMOSTHENES and Atheneans (tittle Phillelen was given by Atheneans)
Philippos was not a Greek, but neither was Barbarian.

*

----------


## Yetos

> : "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." 
> 
> *Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31*



*So Laberia what is Philippos?

3rd anti-Philippic 31
*εἰ δέ γε δοῦλος ἢ ὑποβολιμαῖος τὰ μὴ προσήκοντ᾽ ἀπώλλυε καὶ ἐλυμαίνετο, Ἡράκλεις ὅσῳ μᾶλλον δεινὸν καὶ ὀργῆς ἄξιον πάντες ἂν ἔφησαν εἶναι. ἀλλ᾽ οὐχ ὑπὲρ Φιλίππου καὶ ὧν ἐκεῖνος πράττει νῦν, οὐχ οὕτως ἔχουσιν, οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ᾽ ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι.

*He is not a Hellenas
He is not Barbarian
THEN ?

*Just like you, Using Demosthenes words
for member Laberia is not Albanian, nor related to Albanians, but not even a European from any place that be named with Honoue, but a pestilent knave from ???? , whence ......

----------


## Yetos

:Laughing: 


> Like every important Historian's statement is different than Greeks...
> Like Lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl "The World of Early Macedon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs
> Like Eugene Borza eugeneborzamkd.jpg
> Arthur de Cobineau maced.jpg
> Even your Metropolite of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis 60212431_447715785963386_4189274709260500992_n.jpg
> British Historian Marko Attila Hoare 60687274_984306678429499_8411006443427201024_n.jpg


First understand what Kantiotis of Florina say,
He speaks about civil war after WW2
the demand of Communists to create a Communistic Makedonia,
treaty of Bled 1947,
what is today slavo-Makedonia is after the negative stance of Aromani of krusevo, and generaaly all Priliaps not enter under Serbian or Bulgarian identity,,

As for Borza or Kenneth, etc
I prefer Strabo, herodotos, EVEN THE PERSIAN, AND DEMOSTHENS the anti-Philipikos retor.

For as Demosthenes says,
Makedonians are not Hellenes
Makedonians are not barbarians 

bye from a *Yauna Takabara
*

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Slavs are indigenous in the Balkans
Author: Mario Alinei
Source: Origini delle lingue d�Europa, Vol. I: La teoria d
Here are some excerpts of Dr. Mario Alinei’s study concerning the Slavic populations in the Balkans. It is congruent with Dr.Florin Curta’s conclusions about the invention of the “arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans”.
“I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times.”
“Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs… because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands.”
“The surmised ‘Slavic migration’ is full of inconsistencies. There is no ‘northern Slavic language’, it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic… The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic… and connected with Anatolia… Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age… The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture… agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs… The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven…].
REFERENCES
Mario Alinei, Origini delle lingue d�Europa, Vol. I: La teoria della continuit�, Il Mulino, Bologna, 1996;
Vol. II: La continuit� delle principali aree etnolinguistiche dal Mesolitico all�et� del Ferro, Il Mulino, Bologna, 2000.
BIOGRAPHY
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987.
Founder and editor of “Quaderni di semantica” review.
He is president of “Atlas Linguarum Europae”.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

> First understand what Kantiotis of Florina say,
> He speaks about civil war after WW2
> the demand of Communists to create a Communistic Makedonia,
> treaty of Bled 1947,
> what is today slavo-Makedonia is after the negative stance of Aromani of krusevo, and generaaly all Priliaps not enter under Serbian or Bulgarian identity,,
> 
> As for Borza or Kenneth, etc
> I prefer Strabo, herodotos, EVEN THE PERSIAN, AND DEMOSTHENS the anti-Philipikos retor.
> 
> ...


*Isocrates – Letter to Phillip II of Macedon, 4th Century BC!t*
Isocrates was an Attic orator who lived during the 4th century BC, and was a contemporary of Phillip II of Macedon and Demosthenes, another Attic orator. Demosthenes was vehemently opposed to Phillip and Macedonia, as he saw the true intention of the Macedonians and their desire to subjugate the Hellenic city-states and their people. Isocrates, on the other hand, unwittingly thought it more beneficial to the Hellenes if Phillip could be persuaded to treat them as friends. As a result of Macedonian royalty claiming descent from a god (Heracles, no less), a fiction that originates from Herodotus’ story about Alexander ‘Philhellene’ and the Olympic games, Isocrates appealed to the supposed ‘Hellenic’ descent of Phillip, stroking the Macedonian’s ego, who was being likened to a god by this opportunistic old fool.
Here is an example of Isocrates’ false hopes, naivety and flattery:
Quote:
…..*you and you alone had been granted by fortune free scope both to send ambassadors to whom ever you desire and to receive them from whom ever you please, and to say whatever you think expedient*; and that, besides, you, beyond any of the Hellenes, were possessed of both wealth and power…..(15-6)



In the same paragraph, Isocrates goes on to say that _persuasion will be helpful in dealing with the Hellenes_, clearly hoping to appeal to Phillip’s ‘better’ side, in the hope that the Hellenes will be treated mercifully. Despite the fact that Philip had no genuine interest in ‘Panhellenism’, Isocrates foolishly believed that, were he to draw some apparent ‘ancestral’ links wrapped up in a flattering mythology between the _founder of his race_ (Heracles) and the people (Hellenes) he was preparing to attack, Phillip would listen to reason. The following text being a perfect example:
Quote:
I affirm that, without neglecting any of your own interests, *you ought to make an effort to reconcile Argos and Lacedaemon and Thebes and Athens*; for if you can bring these cities together, you will not find it hard to unite the others as well………..*Argos is the land of your fathers*, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors; the *Thebans honour the founder of your race*, both by processionals and by sacrifices, beyond all the other gods; the *Lacedaemonians have conferred upon his descendants the kingship and the power* of command for all time……….*Athens single-handed*sustained the greatest dangers against the power of Eurystheus, put an end to his insolence, and *freed Heracles’ sons* from the fears by which they were continually beset. *Because of these services we deserve the gratitude, not only of those who then were preserved from destruction, but also of those who are now living*………(30-5)



Quote:
…among all the Hellenes *you shall stand forth as a statesman who has worked for the good of Hellas*. (140)



Unfortunately, Isocrates doesn’t seem to realise that he is giving Phillip all the more confidence to subjugate the Hellenes, and an idea of what is required to meet that objective.
Quote:
I think that she will join forces with you in carrying out your policy, especially *if she can be made to see that your object is to prepare for the campaign against the barbarians*.(56)



Phillip and his son Alexander would often pull out the ‘revenge at Persia’ card when it suited them, as they did with their mythological ‘ancestry’, but few Hellenes of their day were naive enough to believe the Macedonian kings.
Quote:
if you fall short of your expectations you will at any rate win the good will of all the Hellenes–which is a *better thing to gain than to take by force many Hellenic cities; for achievements of the latter kind entail envy and hostility and much opprobrium, but that which I have urged entails none of these things……*. (67-8)



Phillip, Alexander and subsequent Macedonian kings did the exact opposite of what Isocrates was begging for, as is clearly evidenced throughout ancient history. And the flattery continued:
Quote:
…..Men of the highest renown will come as ambassadors from the greatest states to your court; you will advise with them about the general welfare, for which no other man will be found to have shown a like concern; *you will see all Hellas on tiptoe* with interest in whatever you happen to propose; and no one will be indifferent to the measures which are being decided in your councils….(69-70)



How utterly sweet, all Hellas will be on tiptoe for what Isocrates fancifully describes as a _lover of Hellas_ and one of the _blood of Hellas_. As it turned out, the Hellenes were on tiptoe while fleeing from imminent death at the hands of the Macedonian soldiers of Phillip, as was the case during the historic Macedonian victory over the Hellenes at Chaeronea and the subsequent subjugation of the Hellenic city-states.


Quote:
…….it is your privilege, as *one who has been blessed with untrammelled freedom*, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race……..it will be found that *I turned to Athens first of all* and endeavoured to win her over to this cause with all the earnestness of which my nature is capable, but *when I perceived that she cared less for what I said* than for the ravings of the platform orators, I gave her up, although I did not abandon my efforts. (127-9)



Of course Phillip was blessed with untrammelled freedom, he was the king of Macedonia, the most powerful state in Europe at the time. And the underlined text highlights Isocrates’ motive for turning to Phillip – His own countrymen did not want to listen to him or his advice, which proved to be entirely inaccurate in any case. Demosthenes was not alone, and his words are reflective of the thoughts of the overwhelming mass of Hellenes during the reign of the Macedonians. Few actually bought the story that the Macedonian kings were ‘Hellenes’, as Demosthenes indicated in his verbal attack against Phillip:


Isocrates speaks against the majority Hellenes represented by Demosthenes, calling their very real concerns about Phillip’s true (and ultimate) intentions mere _rubbish_, as indicated in the following text:
Quote:
I observe that you are being painted in false colours by men who are jealous of you……..*they keep talking about your power, representing that it is being built up, not in behalf of Hellas, but against her, that you have for a long time been plotting against us all*………By speaking this rubbish……..(73-76)



Phillip was plotting against the Hellenes and he did succeed in subjugating them.
Isocrates’ views of Macedonia and the Macedonian people are markedly different from that of the Macedonian kings.
Quote:
*More than that, he has about him the ablest men in Macedonia*, who, however inexperienced they may be in other matters, are likely to know better than you do what is expedient for him. *Furthermore, you will find that there are many Hellenes living in his country*, who are not unknown to fame or lacking in intelligence, but men by sharing whose counsel he has not diminished his kingdom but has, on the contrary, accomplished deeds which match his dreams. (19)



A clear distinction is made between the (ablest) men in Macedonia on the one hand, and the Hellenes living in Phillip’s country (as colonists) on the other.
Quote:
And mark that I am summoning you to an undertaking in which you will make expeditions, *not with the barbarians against men who have given you no just cause*, but with the Hellenes against those upon whom it is fitting that the descendants of Heracles should wage war. (115)



The above is clearly in reference to Phillip and his barbarians (Macedonians) making expeditions against the Hellenes.
Quote:
………………….And the founder of your empire……held *entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon*…….he alone among the Hellenes *did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race*, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power. (106-8)



Macedonia was entirely aloof from Hellenic territory. That cannot be disputed. Below is another clear distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes.
Quote:
It remains, then, to summarize what I have said in this discourse, in order that you may see in the smallest compass the substance of my counsels. I assert that it is incumbent upon you to *work for the good of the Hellenes, to reign as king over the Macedonians, and to extend your power over the greatest possible number of the barbarians. For if you do these things, all men will be grateful to you: the Hellenes for your kindness to them; the Macedonians if you reign over them, not like a tyrant, but like a king*; and the rest of the nations, if by your hands they are delivered from barbaric despotism and are brought under the protection of Hellas. (154)



In addition to Herodotus’ story, Isocrates had also allowed for the ‘Hellenic’ appellation to be attached to the Macedonian kings through other means, which could basically apply to any person of the time that had acquired an Attic education and/or had an appreciation for certain cultural characteristics of the Hellenes. Indeed, the Hellenes were no longer even a race, as stated in his Panegyricus:
Quote:
And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that *the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood*. (50)



The basis for Phillip’s false ‘Hellenic’ origins (as proposed by Isocrates) are exposed in several ways, and do not go unnoticed by later scholars that have studied his works. Those that have assessed Isocrates’ works agree that it is little more than flattery and false hope. Peter Green states the following:
Quote:
“taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement……..Its ethnic conceit was only equalled by its naivety……….though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage (a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress.”



Pierre Jouguet states the following:
Quote:
“So little do the Macedonians seem to have belonged to the Hellenic community at the beginning, that they did not take part in the great Games of Greece, and when the Kings of Macedon were admitted to them, it was not as Macedonians, but as Heraclids. Isocrates, in the ‘Philip’ praises them for not having imposed their kingship on the Hellenes, to whom the kingship is always oppressive, and for having gone among foreigners to establish it. He, therefore, did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks.”



Ulrich Wilcken wrote:
Quote:
“When Philip read the book, the insistence of his descent from Heracles must have been welcome to him; for in his policy he had to stress this mythical derivation, as the types of Heracles on his coins show. But on the other hand he must have smiled at the naiveté shown by Isocrates”



In conclusion, it is critical to cite the words of Pausanias:
Quote:
On a pillar is a statue of Isocrates, whose memory is remarkable for three things: his diligence in continuing to teach to the end of his ninety-eight years, his self-restraint in keeping aloof from politics and from interfering with public affairs, and his love of liberty in *dying a voluntary death, distressed at the news of the battle at Chaeronea* (1.18.8).



Everything that Isocrates thought Phillip was turned out to be false, and everything he dreaded came true. He died as a result of Phillip going against his wishes and destroying the liberty of the Hellenes. Pausanias confirms it several times:
Quote:
I have already said in my history of Attica that *the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks* (Hellenes)………..(9.6.5).



It is abundantly clear, the Macedonians were never Hellenes.

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## RagnarofMacedon

Attachment 11048

Hi, here is Macedonian Specialist Eugenee...

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## RagnarofMacedon

And occupation still goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?


CHRIS STEFOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWNWVNJMOg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc



As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it:
*“I know of two tragic histories in the world – that of Ireland and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.”*
Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

*The newly invented Hellenes only live in Bavarian Greece, 1842!
Attachment 11049Attachment 11050Attachment 11051Attachment 11052*

----------


## Yetos

> And occupation still goes...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
> The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
> The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
> Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
> This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
> Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?
> 
> ...


*That is why the Communists send Greek children at Poland and at Taskende Uzbekistan*?
cause they were 'Makedonians'?

*come on, sending children from Makedonia at 7th block at taskend Uzbekistan was the desire of a 'Makedonian'?

Or a fully organised crime by Communists
Stalin is no different than Hitler, 
and Tito in order to worship him for his great Yugoslavia, he himshelf destroy the country he made after 1974
*Tito wanted people to remember him as great man, so he himshelf, created Makedonia, Kossovo, etc etc 
he made Yugoslvia great, he destroy Yugoslavia.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*The charter of Alexander The Macedonian, found in the book by Orbini, 1601!*Attachment 11053
Title page of the book by Mauro Orbini from 1601.
*THE CHARTER OF ALEXANDER THE MACEDONIAN*_“WE, ALEXANDER, son of Phillip, King of Macedonia, Prince of the Monarchy, appointed as a creator of Greek empire, from Nataban announced as the child of the great Zeus, ruler of the Augusts, and of Bramans and of Arbonites, from sunrise to sunset, from south up until north, to the noble nation of Slavs we wish kindness, peace and health. We and our followers who will succeed us in ruling the world, because you have been consistent in faith, valiant in fights and our leaders and heroic fighters, we apportion you and freely donate you forever this whole part of the land, to North up until southern borders with Italy; and with such right, which nobody but you, must not stay long here; nor inhabit, nor live there. If, however, anyone stays longer here, may he become your slave, and his children, slaves to your children.__This Privilege is given in the new city of Alexandria, whom we created by the great Nile river, in the twelfth year of our ruling, under protection of the great god Zeus and Mars, Pluto and goddess Athens. Witnesses to this act are the noble Athleta, our treasurer, together with the other eleven princes whom we have appointed, after our death, as our general successors, considering the fact that we haven’t got any children.”_From the book “The Kingdom of the Slavs” by Mauro Orbini, published in 1601, in Pezaro.
This is *Alexanders legacy* to his people, the *Macedonians*, who became *Glorious*, and hence forth were also kown as the *Slavjani*(Slavs).


Also page 69: 

In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,
in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completely
it is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the same
the language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Moesi speak the same,
Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleading
is that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just like
today the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitly
confirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among others 
countries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago.

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## RagnarofMacedon

_he town of Agria situated in Dakia was founded (according to Bonfinio in the 1st book of 1 Dec.) by these Agrians who lived (according to Stephan the Byzantine) in the areas between the mountains Emos and Rodopies, near Macedonia. Macedonia however, was continually colonized by the Slavic nation and new-comers from Tyre, even though some thought that the Macedonians belonged to the society of the Greeks. To oppose them, I bring the opinion of Stephan the Byzantine about Alexander the Macedonian, who very clearly differs the language of the Macedonians from the language of the Greeks.__From this it can be clearly seen that Macedonian speech couldn’t be understood by all participants of Alexander’s army, because a great part of it consisted of Greeks.And truly, when Alexander told to Philota, the son of Parmenion, who wanted to expound his personal matter to the crowds: “The Macedonians oh, Philota, will condemn you; therefore I ask you, will you address them on your maternal language”, and Philota refused to do so, because he would not be understood by all. Then Alexander stated that Philota hated his maternal language.__MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS__So, if Macedonians were Greeks, why would Philota refuse to speak Greek in front of the Greeks? And even more, having in mind that he did not have more appropriate language than the Greek, supposedly if Macedonians were Greeks. Because (as Plinius says it, book VII, chapter 57) the passive willingness of the people was the first reason for the usage of the Ionian literacy. So, the maternal language of the Macedonians, which differs from the one we think was the general language of the whole army of Alexander, clearly shows that the Macedonians do not belong to the Greeks; as it is known, out of the ancient unity of the language, the unity of the nationality is confirmed as well. According to it, when distinguishing the languages at Nembrot, none of the authors confirmed anything opposite; The Greeks through their language do not draw near to the Macedonians; and we have shown enough, based upon the mere difference between the languages, that the Macedonians are not Greeks; then based upon the words of Phillip of Bergamo, we must admit that the Macedonians from all times, up until nowadays have got a Slavic language. Well, what would you think about Tukidid, who by joining Byzantium and Pula, a large part of Trakia and Mezia, and the whole Iliricum, all of these countries calls Macedonia? It would be the same as if he had said: I reckon that Trakia, Mezia and Iliricum must not be separated from the Macedonians. Therefore, I don’t doubt that the Trakians, Mezians and Ilircs are bound together with Macedonians. A witness to that is the title of Alexander the Macedonian presenting him as the King of the Macedonians and Greeks. Much stronger witnesses are the basic differences in the customs and lifestyle between the Macedonians and Greeks allowing me to be easily convinced that there are different traditions and customs even among people of the same kindred. That is why, according to the telling of K. Kurtius, when Diosip of Athens had to fight chest to chest against Horata the Macedonian, there were some Greeks among Alexander’s soldiers who supported Diosip; but if Macedonians had been Greeks, why didn’t the Greeks give the same treatment to Horata the Macedonian, as they supported Diosip only because he was a Greek? Therefore, if sometimes mostly among the Barbarians, there is a saying that Alexander was Greek, it’s because they were most familiar with the Greeks, because of their past wars against the nations of East; therefore they considered all nations on West to be Greeks; something similar is happening nowadays, when Greeks together with Turks and all other nations from East consider all catholic nations to be Franks.__Jeremiah Ruso in “The Chronicles of Moscovia” clearly states that the Russians, meaning the Moscowians had the same language as the ancient Macedonians; and King Phillip, the father of Alexander the Macedonian was born among them, who (as Plutarch in “The life of Alexander”, Yustin in VIIIth book and Sabelik in the III book of “Eneida”, and others tell us) submitted the strongest towns in Greece under his laws, enslaved Greece (who until then had freedom) and through his glorious deeds reached the greatness of the most famous kings. His son Alexander the Macedonian expanded through the boundaries of the earth (according to the First book of Macabians, chapter 1), took the treasures of many people, even making the earth numb. After Alexander’s death, Macedonians governed all nations in the world as well as the Egyptians for 276 years” says Mauro Orbini._From the book “The Kingdom of the Slavs” by Mauro Orbini, published in 1601, in Pezaro, page 168 – 171.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*The Close Racial Kinship Between the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks: Macedonia and Thrace By Dr. George Nakratzas*
 Click here to read the book
The book is in the PDF-format so you will need a PDF-reader, I suggest that you download Adobe Reader from http://www.adobe.com/
*Here is the preface of the book:*
_PREFACE TO THE THIRD EDITION__The sole purpose of the first edition of this book was to give young Greeks another version of the origins of the modern Greek people, a rather different version, that runs counter to what has been taught in Greek schools for decades.__As the overtones of the modern Greek nationalist mythology gradually came into focus, culminating in such nationalist clichés as the assertion that ‘the Greek nation has no kin’, that the ‘Skopjans’ are ‘Gypsies’, or that the (Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia is an ‘ethnic hotchpotch’, I was taken aback, and eventually got down to writing this, the third edition.__My hopes of doing what I could to set up an opposing force to this rampant nationalism have not been entirely in vain, considering that something like 3,000 copies have been sold all over the country. For a book of this nature, this is quite an achievement.__Viewed in the light of the general situation in Europe, Greece’s present foreign policy has shown that the country’s modern ideological armour is still very much the product of a nationalist upbringing, the roots of which go back to somewhere around the beginning of the nineteenth century. But the nation will never find its way in the European Union carrying this sort of ideological baggage.__One of the cornerstones of this ideology is the unrealistic theory that the modem Greeks, expressing as they do the enduring nature of the Greek language, are the biological descendants of the ancient Greeks. It was concocted in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to serve as an ideological arsenal in the efforts to create a modern Greek nation in view of the impending collapse of the feudal, theocratic Ottoman Empire. The philosophical challenge to theocracy as a social model of governance first emerged, together with the concept of human rights, in north-western Europe in the sixteenth century, the century of philosophical humanism that produced Erasmus, Shakespeare, and other great thinkers. In Greece, 400 years after the theocratic beliefs of the Middle Ages were first challenged (in 1967, to be precise), there was still talk of ‘the Greece of Greek Christians’; and even today we hear a great deal about ‘Greek Orthodox culture’ — a culture that has never in fact existed as such, being known rather as ‘Orthodox Eastern Roman culture’.__This country’s cultural backwardness has been starkly underlined by the efforts of modern Greek society to use the institution of the European City of Culture (Thessaloniki in 1997) to vaunt the mediaeval ideal of the Orthodox Eastern Roman culture of Mount Athos, not only as a historical and cultural facet of the multiethnic Byzantine Empire, but also as a ‘Greek’ national and religious heritage. These efforts may even have been subsidised by the European Union, at a time when sixty per cent of the population of the Netherlands, one of the most religious countries in Europe, have officially rejected any form of religious doctrine.__A large segment of modern Greek society, which has never really embarked upon the process of ideological modernisation, oscillates desperately between modernism and Greek Orthodox fundamentalism, displaying an inherent inability to make any sort of ideological distinction between the terms ‘race’, nationality’, and ‘cultural or ethnic identity’. Apart from the fact that even well-respected journalists are engaged in daily attempts to convince the younger generation that we are directly descended from ‘our ancient forebears’, views that go against the theory of ‘one race, one religion, one nation’ are regarded as nationally reprehensible. It is on this theory that most Greeks base their belief that there are no minorities in our country, apart from the ‘Greek Moslems’ of Western Thrace. Greek citizens who have publicly proclaimed that they do not feel like Greeks but like ethnic Macedonians or ethnic Turks have been pursued and convicted by Greek justice, which just goes to show that modem Greek society not only fails to show the necessary respect for what is different, but cannot even tolerate it. And, being in the grip of a virulent Hellenocentric egomania, this same society, while denying Greek citizens the right to any ethnic identity other than Greek, constantly exhorts Greeks living in other countries to preserve their Greek ethnic identity.__Personally, I couldn’t care less what race the citizens of modern Greece belong to; the only purpose of this book is to show, and substantiate with written documentation, how rotten and historically untenable obsessive nationalism is, in the hope of infusing as many young people as possible with respect for the right to self-determination of every Greek citizen and every ethnic group that calls itself a minority, as long as the country’s laws and territorial integrity are respected._

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

*Macedonians changed to Bulgarians in census records!

Here is an explanation to why there are no Macedonians in Bulgaria.
Official documents are being altered without the consent of the individual whom it affects.
Attachment 11054
An explanation to the document;in column marked #5 you can read the following information about the person:А – Basic EducationБ – NationalityВ – CitizenshipIt is easy to see that every person has been entered as Macedonian in the “Б – Nationality” field, that has later been replaced with Bulgarian written with a red pen.
*


ALSO
Here is a text describing how the Bulgarians tried to assimilate the Macedonians during their occupation of Macedonia in World War II.
_THE BULGARIAN AUTHORITES ATTEMPT TO FINALLY ASSIMILATE THE POPULATION._
_Before the end of October 1941, the Bulgarian Municipal authorites sent Officials to the village from the Municipal and District capital – Prilep to conduct a census of the whole population.
The Officials had printed documents with them, were they entered the inhabitants of the village. The documents had all necissary paragraphs to enter the exact evidence (year of birth, place, gender, occupation, education) and finally there was a special paragraph which said “political affiliaton” and “nationality”._
_The Officials put their hardest effort on the final paragraph in the census. They asked the people what nationality they are – Serbs or Bulgarians, but Macedonians were not at all mentioned._
_Before the Officials began to assimilate the Macedonian population they held a short clarifying speech, in which they said that this people is Bulgarian “in origin” and needs to sign as that and further in the Bulgarian books as evidence.
That speech even more upset the villagers who told them that in this village there are no Serbs neither Bulgarians but only Macedonians. They asked the Officials if they could sign as Macedonian under the paragraph “nationality” in the census._
_One of the Policemen tried to explaine to the villagers that Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same; that it has no relevance for the document, which is only a Record which will be in a archive.
The villagers forced the Officials and the Policemen to let them sign as “Macedonian” under the paragraph “nationality”._
_Thus in the census Aleksandar S… entered him and his family as Macedonian, and after him followed the other villagers: Vanche S…, Vasil V…, Trajko M…, Dushan M…, Aleksa V…, Jovan S…, Tode V…, Nikola P…, Nikola Z…, and other villagers._
_This open statement by the villagers against the Bulgarian assimilation made the Bulgarian Municipal authorities revolt and seek thru the District capital for a village leader from somewhere else to be sent to the village who is a Bulgarian and can help Bulgaria, but in the village of ….. there is noone who claims to be a pure Bulgarian. This was told to them by the villagers from their Municipal village leader Nikola K… on the conference where the new village leader Ilija L… from ….. was announced by a decree._

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

Greek scholar Evangelos Kofos recognizes People’s Republic of Macedonia in his book “Nationalism And Communism In Macedonia” from 1964.
Thus Greece had no problem with our name containing the word Macedonia or even “Republic of Macedonia”.
Attachment 11055 Attachment 11056 Attachment 11057 Attachment 11058


So after this propaganda from 1981, they have ISSUE...
On October 1981 national elections in Greece, PASOK (The Panhellenic Socialist Movement, a centre-left political party) won a landslide victory with 48% of the votes, capturing 173 seats in the Greek Parliament. One of the first things on this new government’s agenda was to initiate a campaign to force the population into believing that there is no Macedonian nation and to generally remove the term Macedonia or Macedonians from use. This is the document they issued to that affect.Attachment 11059


Translation into English:
HELENIC REPUBLIC Top Secret
MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SECURITY
NATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE
Athens, 16th February, 1982
Number of protocol 6502/7-3042?
INTRODUCTION
a) The Skopians’ activities for the autonomy of Macedonia may be efficiently confronted mainly by wiping out the use of the idiom, in the regions near the borders. This opinion is based on the realizations that also other regions that in older times were center of “Macedonism”, like Kastoria, are no hit by the Skopian propaganda, because there the use of the idiom has been almost wiped out.
b) This element by itself would be enough to exclude any thoughts of repatriation of the P/R (political refugees) who now reside in Yugoslavia and who have been brought up with the “Macedonian idea”, the “Macedonian language and culture”, independently of their participation or not to the organizations SNOF, NOF and activities take for detaching Greek territories during the period 1946-1949
c) As for evidence it is imperative to:
a. The creation of a state institution that will depend from the Prefectures of the regions near the borders, lined with the suitable and specially trained to the “Plot against Macedonia” subject, personnel. This institution will engage itself only with this subject, with the supervision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and will collaborate closely, but in secret with the Security Authorities and all the Public Services (Tax office, Schools, Army, Church, etc)
b. In the public services and especially in the educational institutions the employees who will be in service have to be ignorant of the local idiom.
c. The establishment of special enlightenment seminaries, for all the public service employees and the clergy who are in service in the sensitive region of Macedonia.
d. The establishment of motivations for the obligatory residence of the public servants and other employees, in the quarters of their service (example: payment of the rent, extra pay, etc.)
e. Establishment of the Cultural Association, like “ARISTOTELIS” in Florina and economic help to them, for the realization of events and the publishing of books, newspapers, magazines, etc. And afterwards these will be sent to the Diaspora abroad who has origins from the regions of the senders. This will boost their national sentiment and they will be protected from the anti-Hellenic propaganda that is been practiced by S/M (Slavmacedonians) organizations.
f. Insertion of various obstacles (non-recognition of diplomats, postponement of military service, etc.) for the Greek students who wish to study in Skopje.
g. Marking in each village of persons who due to their kin bounds and their personality influence a large circle of co-villagers and with any means (even with money payments) get close to them and use them properly so they will behave as the fighters of the use of the idiom in their circle. To this direction a very positive and effective role can be that of the Youngerss of the political parties, by the judgement and coordination of the Government, when a between parties agreement will be reached.
h. Recruitment in the Armed Forces, in Police Bodies in the public services and Organisations of employees with origins from Florina region, by exception, and their obligatory location in other areas of the country.
i. The encouragement, by the leadership of the Army of meetings and marriages of Army officers, who are on duty, there and have origins abroad, with women that speak the idiom.
THE CHIEF DIMITRIS KAPELARIS ANT/GOS

----------


## Yetos

@ Ragnaro no 1

man, 

*what are talking about*

You used Isokrates, 
and created fictional results,

WHY you do nost this from Isokrates

 Ἄργος μὲν γάρ ἐστίν σοι πατρὶς, ἧς δίκαιον τοσαύτην σε ποιεῖσθαι πρόνοιαν ὅσην περ τῶν γονέων τῶν σαυτοῦ· Θηβαῖοι δὲ τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τοῦ γένους ὑμῶν τιμῶσιν καὶ ταῖς προσόδοις καὶ ταῖς θυσίαις μᾶλλον ἢ τοὺς θεοὺς τοὺς ἄλλους· [33] Λακεδαιμόνιοι δὲ τοῖς ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνου γεγονόσιν καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν καὶ τὴν ἡγεμονίαν εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον δεδώκασιν· τὴν δὲ πόλιν τὴν ἡμετέραν φασὶν, οἷσπερ περὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πιστεύομεν, Ἡρακλεῖ μὲν συναιτίαν γενέσθαι τῆς ἀθανασίας —ὃν δὲ τρόπον, σοὶ μὲν αὖθις πυθέσθαι ῥᾴδιον, ἐμοὶ δὲ νῦν εἰπεῖν οὐ καιρός— τοῖς δὲ παισὶ τοῖς ἐκείνου τῆς σωτηρίας..


*So enough with paraphrasing ancients wrong way, 
Here as you see Isokrates not only admits,
BUT MAKES A HYMN ON THE GREEK HERITAGE OF MAKEDONIANS 


*and the question now is 
was Isokrates a mad one?
Or some Insane Slavs, in order to claim Makedonian ancestry,
paraphrase some pieces of Isokrates?*

and the answer is that some weird Slavs, do paraphrase Isokrates, isolating parts,

*
From Isokrates to Phillip 5 ch 32-33

[32] Γνοίης δ᾽ ἂν ὡς οὐδεμιᾶς σοι προσήκει τούτων ὀλιγωρεῖν, ἢν ἀνενέγκῃς αὐτῶν τὰς πράξεις ἐπὶ τοὺς σαυτοῦ προγόνους· εὑρήσεις γὰρ ἑκάστῃ πολλὴν φιλίαν πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ μεγάλας εὐεργεσίας ὑπαρχούσας. Ἄργος μὲν γάρ ἐστίν σοι πατρὶς, ἧς δίκαιον τοσαύτην σε ποιεῖσθαι πρόνοιαν ὅσην περ τῶν γονέων τῶν σαυτοῦ· Θηβαῖοι δὲ τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τοῦ γένους ὑμῶν τιμῶσιν καὶ ταῖς προσόδοις καὶ ταῖς θυσίαις μᾶλλον ἢ τοὺς θεοὺς τοὺς ἄλλους· [33] Λακεδαιμόνιοι δὲ τοῖς ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνου γεγονόσιν καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν καὶ τὴν ἡγεμονίαν εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον δεδώκασιν· τὴν δὲ πόλιν τὴν ἡμετέραν φασὶν, οἷσπερ περὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πιστεύομεν, Ἡρακλεῖ μὲν συναιτίαν γενέσθαι τῆς ἀθανασίας —ὃν δὲ τρόπον, σοὶ μὲν αὖθις πυθέσθαι ῥᾴδιον, ἐμοὶ δὲ νῦν εἰπεῖν οὐ καιρός— τοῖς δὲ παισὶ τοῖς ἐκείνου τῆς σωτηρίας.

----------


## Yetos

@ Ragnaro no2




> And occupation still goes...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
> The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
> The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
> Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
> This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
> Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?
> 
> ...


*That is why the Communists send Greek children at Poland and at Taskende Uzbekistan*?
cause they were 'Makedonians'?

*come on, sending children from Makedonia at 7th block at taskend Uzbekistan was the desire of a 'Makedonian'?

Or a fully organised crime by Communists
Stalin is no different than Hitler, 
and Tito in order to worship him for his great Yugoslavia, he himshelf destroy the country he made after 1974
*Tito wanted people to remember him as great man, so he himshelf, created Makedonia, Kossovo, etc etc 
he made Yugoslvia great, he destroy Yugoslavia.


Sending children from N Greece to Poland, Czech, even Uzbekistan, is not a savour to SlavoMakedonians,
*It is an organised crime of Communists,*
they send also children from Epirus, was this a Slavomakedonian id plan?

----------


## Yetos

@ Ragnaro no 3

The Politi-Kalfov protocol-agreement.

after WW1 among Greece and Bulgaria happened an agreement of exchange population,
Greeks came from Bulgaria, and Bulgarians from Greece moved to Bulgaria

*Why kingdom of Serbia did not, did this, and later communist Tito?
why the more than 30% of Monasterion left their homes and moved to Greece and rest Europe and USA
who force them to leave?
and if Greek is Fasist, why in some villages SlavoMakedonian are spoken free,
and Greek does not in Fyrom?

I suggest think before you speak,

by Prespes treaty you earned a lot,
Greece lost a lot,
it is Time to recogn and come to a protocol like Politi-Kalfov
recogning the Greek minority that is about 14% today at Skopjie.
since you have your own state, it is time to stop playing the games of Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey,
and face the truth, and make your own treaties, and agreements.


*

----------


## Dianatomia

> Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.


Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time. 

As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise. 

We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...

----------


## LABERIA

> Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time. 
> 
> As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise. 
> 
> We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...


I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek? 
Thanks in advance.

----------


## Dianatomia

> I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek? 
> Thanks in advance.


The memory of Alexander had survived within the Greek literary tradition indeed. In fact, if it wasn't for the Greek literary tradition, it is quite likely that we would not have known much of Alexander. Similarly, the same is true for the geographical term 'Macedonia'. It is through Greek culture that this name had survived and has been referred to continuously. In any case, naturally I am not going to do a full research on Alexander in Byzantine literature. But I have come across references of Alexander in later Greek era's quite some times. The one which come to mind was Manuel Palaiologos where he, during the Siege of Thessalonica by the Turks, reminded the citizens of Thessalonica that they are the heirs of Alexander and that they had to defend the city with their lives.

Alexander also has survived in Byzantine Greek art. Like this 14th century drawing where it shows how Alexander killed Darius:
 

You will find many more here:
https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstr...-Alexander.pdf

Here is a book you will find interesting. Though you need access to read it. 
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9...08.xml?lang=en

There are also medieval chronicles as you stated. But I have found a link only and it is in Greek. 
https://www.politeianet.gr/books/978...antinon-290731

It would be nice if I can start a new threat and gather as many referrals as possible about Alexander in Medieval Greek works.

----------


## LABERIA

> The memory of Alexander had survived within the Greek literary tradition indeed. In fact, if it wasn't for the Greek literary tradition, it is quite likely that we would not have known much of Alexander. Similarly, the same is true for the geographical term 'Macedonia'. It is through Greek culture that this name had survived and has been referred to continuously. In any case, naturally I am not going to do a full research on Alexander in Byzantine literature. But I have come across references of Alexander in later Greek era's quite some times. The one which come to mind was Manuel Palaiologos where he, during the Siege of Thessalonica by the Turks, reminded the citizens of Thessalonica that they are the heirs of Alexander and that they had to defend the city with their lives.
> 
> Alexander also has survived in Byzantine Greek art. Like this 14th century drawing where it shows how Alexander killed Darius:
>  
> 
> You will find many more here:
> https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstr...-Alexander.pdf
> 
> Here is a book you will find interesting. Though you need access to read it. 
> ...


Excuse me because seems that you have not understand my question and for this reason i am going to repeat it:



> I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek? 
> Thanks in advance.


I am asking about Greeks, not Romans.

----------


## Dianatomia

> Excuse me because seems that you have not understand my question and for this reason i am going to repeat it:
> 
> 
> I am asking about Greeks, not Romans.


So that is where you want to go to. Amazing. You made such a fantastic point. I do not know what to say about that. I am struck. 

What can I say? Perhaps they did not speak English? So they didn't use the word 'G R E E K' . They didn't even have Latin characters. It's very confusing. 

I am kidding obviously. Cheers!

----------


## LABERIA

> So that is where you want to go to. Amazing. You made such a fantastic point. I do not know what to say about that. I am struck. 
> 
> What can I say? Perhaps they did not speak English? So they didn't use the word 'G R E E K' . They didn't even have Latin characters. It's very confusing. 
> 
> I am kidding obviously. Cheers!


Thank you very much for your answer. I got the information that i was interested.

----------


## Yetos

The proud of Argeiad Makedonian Women
The Helmet, which Alexander allow them to had,
Living memmory till today.



It is enough,

it is even tied on head via a imantas infront neck

----------


## Piro Ilir

> @ Ragnaro no 3
> 
> The Politi-Kalfov protocol-agreement.
> 
> after WW1 among Greece and Bulgaria happened an agreement of exchange population,
> Greeks came from Bulgaria, and Bulgarians from Greece moved to Bulgaria
> 
> *Why kingdom of Serbia did not, did this, and later communist Tito?
> why the more than 30% of Monasterion left their homes and moved to Greece and rest Europe and USA
> ...


'Greek minority in Skopje'! . Don't make me laugh that much

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time. 
> 
> As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise. 
> 
> We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...


Illyrian language wasn't written , but still it doesn't mean Illyrians didn't existed as a separate ethnicity.

Eteo/Cretans were a distinct ethnicity surviving well through the iron age in Crete, but they also were part of the Hellenic world. 
We know that there were different people of non Greek ethnicity or descent and whether being part of the mighty Greek world.

----------


## LABERIA

> 'Greek minority in Skopje'! . Don't make me laugh that much


Until few years before the Congress of Berlin (1878), Greeks considered even Serbs as Greeks.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

There is no evidence that ancient macedonian was Greek dialect,It is belived that macedonian was similar to thracian/moesian ,The thing that there was many texts and some coins on koine language in that time internation language (Nowdays Greek) ,because many barbarians like Macedonians accept Hellenism, that was popular thing in ancient time , influence by neighbors , many of barbarians like Macedonians and thracians by Profesor Kenneth W.Harl they accepted Hellenism to can marry Greek woman, coz it was forbidden to non-greeks to marry greek woman unless they accept Greek culture and Language.
Also there is not trace or evidence for Illyrian language , from many ancient and new historians believes that Macedonians,Thracians,Illyrians and Moesians speaks very similar language, but still there is not evindence for theirs language.

----------


## Aspar

> There is no evidence that ancient macedonian was Greek dialect,It is belived that macedonian was similar to thracian/moesian ,The thing that there was many texts and some coins on koine language in that time internation language (Nowdays Greek) ,because many barbarians like Macedonians accept Hellenism, that was popular thing in ancient time , influence by neighbors , many of barbarians like Macedonians and thracians by Profesor Kenneth W.Harl they accepted Hellenism to can marry Greek woman, coz it was forbidden to non-greeks to marry greek woman unless they accept Greek culture and Language.
> Also there is not trace or evidence for Illyrian language , from many ancient and new historians believes that Macedonians,Thracians,Illyrians and Moesians speaks very similar language, but still there is not evindence for theirs language.


If the ancient Macedonians were Hellenized, than there is no point of discussing whether they were originally Greeks or not since they became Greeks and were spreading Hellenism!

Why is that some Macedonians like yourself get into the trap so easily of discussing the ancient Macedonians and make a favour to the Greeks of denying our ethnicity?

Our name and and ethnicity is not bound to the ancient Macedonians.
We have right to call ourselves as such whether the ancients were Greeks or not.
End of story!

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

I came to one conclusion , that how many evindence i will show or someone else there is always butthurt Greeks that will trick your words and make to manipulating with everything, everything what is against their imaginary thats not true , that is said in another context, any way these days there is like 90% of Historians,profesors also many ancient historians and orators who said Macedonians were not Greeks, there is even tons of lectures, but no thats all in another context said...Anyways some stupid records which is i hope IN ANOTHER CONTEXT WRITED , Macedonia is only 1-2% more slavic than Greeks, if we take in account that Greece is like 4 times bigger by population than Macedonia there is conclusion that in Greece is more slavic people than in Macedonia...:)
Anyways @Yetos knows in what contexts are writen ancient quotes, even i heard something that he was close friend of few ancient historians...
I really want to know what educational degree you have?

----------


## Yetos

> I came to one conclusion , that how many evindence i will show or someone else there is always butthurt Greeks that will trick your words and make to manipulating with everything, everything what is against their imaginary thats not true , that is said in another context, any way these days there is like 90% of Historians,profesors also many ancient historians and orators who said Macedonians were not Greeks, there is even tons of lectures, but no thats all in another context said...Anyways some stupid records which is i hope IN ANOTHER CONTEXT WRITED , Macedonia is only 1-2% more slavic than Greeks, if we take in account that Greece is like 4 times bigger by population than Macedonia there is conclusion that in Greece is more slavic people than in Macedonia...:)
> Anyways @Yetos knows in what contexts are writen ancient quotes, even i heard something that he was close friend of few ancient historians...
> I really want to know what educational degree you have?


hahaha

No matter all the ancient wrote,
no matter the evidences, 
the VMRO followers, will always follow the Communistic propaganda,
Aspar told you something, that you will never understand,
you even wrote about Isokrates who worship Philipp, but probably you never read him at all,

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Thank you very much for your answer. I got the information that i was interested.


Already they remodified the Wikipedia page where is written about 'Alexander I of Macedon', the Philhellene... They have an army of editors there. And well paid either. One is wandering where are going all these German funds...

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

The ancient Macedonians regarded the Greeks as potentially dangerous neighbors, never as kinsmen. The Greeks stereotyped the Macedonians as "barbarians" and treated them in the same bigoted manner in which they treated all non-Greeks. Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I(498-454 BC), a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek), wanted to take a part in the Olympic games. The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian. Historian Thucydidis also calls the Macedonians barbarians, and so did Thracymachus who called Archelaus a barbarian who enslaved Greeks. Demosthenes, the great Athenian statesman and orator, spoke of Philip II as:_"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."_ [*Third Philippic, 31*]The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC and appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". This battle had established Macedonian hegemony over Greece and this date is commonly taken as the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era. Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 AD.In 335 BC, Philip's son Alexander campaigned toward the Danube, to secure Macedonia's northern frontier. On rumors of his death, a revolt broke out in Greece with the support of leading Athenians. Alexander marched south covering 240 miles in two weeks. When the revolt continued he sacked Thebes, killing 6,000 people and enslaving the survivors. Only the temples and the house of the poet Pindar were spared.

----------


## RagnarofMacedon

*American Philological Association
Ancient Macedonians Vs the ancient Greeks Differences cited by modern historians
Taken from articles on Ancient History published by A.P.A.*Contributors are:1. D.Brenden Nagle " Macedonian Appropriation of Greek _Kulturgechichte_"2. Eugene Borza "Who were (and are) the Macedonians"3. Edmund F. Bloedow "Diplomatic Negotiations between Darius and Alexander: Historical Implications of the First Phase at Marathus in Phoenicia 333/332 BC"[1] ".....the appropriation of Greek _Kulturgescichte_, and the use by *non-Greeks* for political purposes against Greeks, is less common, and even less well documented. Here I offer an example of *highly effective Macedonian use of Greek cultural history to advance propaganda aims of Philip II which had the double aim of blunting Greek criticism of his state-building while at the same time cloaking his work in the legitimizing terminology devised by Greeks for their own, often violent, colonizing and city founding activities*.""*camouflage* the fact that he was creating a wholly new type of state, a consolidation of ethne under a personal monarchy.""That it has continued to confuse interpreters is testament to the hegomonic power of Greek cultural history and the adroitness of the Macedonians in using this powerful tool of self-identification against its devisers."[2] "On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language it was.""*Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible* in the court of Alexander the Great""no more proof that Macedonians were Greeks than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels and coins proofs that the Thracians were Greeks.[The Greek inscriptions found in Macedonia are not a proof that the Macedonians were Greeks, just like the Greek inscriptions in found in Thrace do not prove that the Thracians were Greek as well. We know for certain that the Thracians were non-Greek nation, therefore, the using of Greek on the territories of Macedonia and Thrace does not prove that the Thracians nor the Macedonians were Greeks]"What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. *It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility*."Yet there is much that is different, e.g., their political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments:[3] "The designation of Macedonia as part of Greece has intrigued modern critics. This, according to Schachermeyr, is enough to 'take one's breath away'. He went so far as to suggest that, however brief, it encapsulates a whole and bold strategy: to counter the Great King's strategy of attempting to exploit the *age-old distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes*. The reason for including Macedonia as part of larger Hellas was designed to justify Macedonian participation in the so-called war of revenge. Whatever the truth on this point, on the basis of what we know happened in Macedonia in 480, Alexander had no more grounds for carrying out a war of revenge on behalf of Macedonia than he had on behalf of Athens or Sparta. *Of course, Macedonians never regarded their territory as forming part of Greece, and certainly the Greek poleis did not regard Macedonia as being another Greek polis.* *The reason why Alexander here includes Macedonia as being part of Greece may be an attempt to paper over the glaring anomaly between what Philip and he had just done to 'the rest of Greece' and what he is in the process of doing to the Persian empire.* The Persians had never done anything significant against the Macedonians. It is noteworthy that Herodotus, although he provides considerable information on Xerxes' activities when he passed through Macedonia in 480, does not record any acts of destruction--- scarcely surprising if Xerxes was instrumental in Macedonia gaining control of Upper Macedonia."[4] "What is more important is the that Chaeronea, Thebes, and Agis make a complete mockery of attempting in this context to suggest that the Greeks in Hellas regarded themselves as willing subjects under legitimate Macedonian kings (Philip and Alexander) or- that the inhabitants of the regions he had just conquered did so entirely of their own will".[We need to refresh our memories about Isocrates' letter to Philip where he, Isocrates, makes clear that: (a) "Philips's ancestors understood that Greeks cannot submit to the rule of a monarch, while non-Greeks actually cannot live without such a regime", and (b) "people of non-kindred race" - was the term used by Isocrates to describe the Macedonians. Obviously, highlighting the distinction between Macedonians and Greeks.]The epitaph composed by Demosthenes for the common grave of the fallen Hellenes at Chaeronea reads as follows:*"Time whose o'erseeng eye records all human actions, Bear word to mankind what fate was suffered,how Striving to safeguard the holly soil of Hellas Upon Boeotia's plain we died."*"If all the peoples in the regions which Alexander had conquered were willing subjects under the new king, he presumably should not have left any military troops with the satraps he everywhere instated."[What an arrogant bluff by Alexander, to refer to the conquered people as "willing subjects". What Alexander failed to disclose is the fact that he left "no less than one quarter of his forces behind under one of Philip's most tried generals when he set out for Asia!"]

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## RagnarofMacedon

*Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University
Makedonika and In the Shadow of Olympus*The American Philological Association refers to E. Borza as the "Macedonian specialist". In the introductory chapter of "Makedonika" by Carol G. Thomas, Eugene Borza is also called "the Macedonian specialist", and his colleague Peter Green describes Eugene's work on Macedonia as "seminal". Do Ancient Historians hold Eugene Borza in high esteem? Please read what P. Green thinks of Borza's approach to the studies of ancient history, and of his method of abstraction of truth: _"Never was a man less given to the kind of mean-spirited odium philologicum that so often marks classical debate. Gene could slice an argument to pieces while still charming its exponents out of the trees."_Ernst Badian from Harward University writes: _"It is chiefly Gene's merit that recognizably historical interpretation of the history of classical Macedonia has not only become possible, but it is now accepted by all ancient historians who have no vested interest in the mythology superseded by Gene's work. Needless to say, I welcome and agree with that approach and have never disagreed with him except on relatively trivial details of interpretation."_ Here are some excerpts from Borza's writings regarding the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks. I will offer no interpretations, for none is needed, indeed. On the matter of distinction between Greeks and Macedonians:[1] "*Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks*."[2] On the composition of Alexander's army: "Thus *we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks* either in quantity or quality."[3] "The pattern is clear: the trend toward the end of the king's life *was to install Macedonians in key positions* at the expense of Asians, *and to retain very few Greeks*."[4] "The conclusion is inescapable: *there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration* from beginning to end. *Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons*, *Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties*. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius."[5] On the policy of hellenization with Alexander conquest of Asia and the Greek assertion that he spread Hellenism: "If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the *ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians*."[6] On the issue of whether Alexander and Philip "united" the Greek city-states or conquered them: "In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy of rule over the city-states, *a rule resulting from conquest*."[7] "The *tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians*, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as *ethnic division."*[8] On Alexander's dimissal of his Greek allies: "A few days later at Ecbatana, Alexander dismissed his Greek allies, and charade with Greece was over."[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an *invention* *of nineteenth-century historography*, and is *otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence*."[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on *folk traditions* about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more *ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture*."[13] On the Macedonian own tradition and origin: "As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced *their own customs and language(s);* there is no evidence that they adopted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."[14] On the Macedonian language: "The main evidence for Macedonian existing as *separate language* comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the *Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically."*[15] "The evidence suggests that *Macedonian was distinct from ordinary Attic Greek* used as a language of the court and of diplomacy."[16] "The handful of surviving *genuine Macedonian words* - not loan words from Greek - *do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect."*[17] On the Macedonian material culture being different from the Greek: "The most visible expression of material culture thus far recovered are the fourth - and third-century tombs. The architectural form, decoration, and burial goods of these tombs, which now number between sixty and seventy, *are unlike what is found in the Greek south*, or even in the neighboring independent Greek cities of the north Aegean littoral (exception Amphipolis). *Macedonian burial habits suggest different view of the afterlife from the Greeks', even while many of the same gods were worshipped."*[18] "Many of the public expressions of worship may have been different."[19] "There is an *absence of major public religious monuments* from Macedonian sites before the end of the fourth century (another difference from the Greeks)."[20] "Must be cautious both in attributing Greek forms of worship to the Macedonians and in using these forms of worship as a means of confirming Hellenic identity."[21] "In brief, one must conclude that the *similarities between some Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe*, even though it is undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences eventually became pervasive."[22] "Greeks and Macedonians remained steadfastly *antipathetic* toward one another (with dislike of a different quality than the mutual long-term hostility shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenic period, when both the culmination of hellenic acculturation in the north and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took precedence over their historical enmities."[23] "They made their mark *not as a tribe of Greek or other Balkan peoples, but as 'Macedonians'*. This was understood by foreign protagonists *from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals."*[24] "It is time to put the matter of the Macedonians' ethnic identity to rest."[25] "There is other aspect of Alexander's Greek policy, and that is his formal relationship with the Greek cities of Europe and Asia. In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy rule over the city-states, *a rule resulting from conquest.* As for the island Greeks and the cities of Asia Minor, their status under the reigns of Philip and Alexander has been much debated. Fortunately, for my purposes, the status of these cities, whether as members of Philip's panhellenic league or as independent towns, is not crucial, as *they were in fact all treated by Alexander as subjects.* Much of the debate on this issue, while interesting and occasionally enlightening, has sometimes obscured a simple reality: *Greeks on both sides of the Aegean were subjects to the authority* *of the king of Macedon."* Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court. _Makedonika_[26] "I have not cited several pieces of anecdotal evidence from the sources on Alexander that establish the continuing *tension at court* *between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division*. A fuller version of this study will consider these incidents to support my view that *Greeks and Macedonians did not get along very well with one another and that this ethnic tension was exploited by the king himself*." _Makedonika_ p.158 [27] "What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. *It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility*."

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## RagnarofMacedon

*Ernst Badian 
Department of History at Harvard University
Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times*[1] "There is *no* evidence of any Macedonian claim to a Greek connection before the Persian war."[2] On Alexander's I attempt to enter the Olympic games: "There were outraged protests from the other competitors, who rejected Alexander I as a *barbarian* -- which proves at the least, that the Teminid [Greek] descent and the royal genealogy had *hitherto been an esoteric knowledge*." The Olympic games in Greece were reserved for Greeks only.[3] "With the exception of the single item, *no* Macedonian king between Alexander I and Philip II is in anyway connected with the Olympic or any other games.[4] The Macedonian king Archelaus founded Macedonian Olympic games which Badian calls it "*counter Olympics*".[5] "No Macedonian appears on the list of Olympic victors that have survived (a fair proportion of the whole) until well into the reign of Alexander the Great."[6] "Nor do we find the Macedonian people *ever regarded as a political entity* transacting business with the Greek states."[7] "For political purposes no difference was seen between Macedonians and (say) Thracian and Persian, i.e. other nations under monarchical rule. This may have been a contributing factor in unwillingness to recognize Macedonians as Greek."[8] On Alexander the Great: "Characteristically for Alexander despite his thorough Greek education and obviously genuine interest in Greek literature, *was nevertheless a Macedonian* king."[9] On Philip, "*Greeks never commanded his armies*".[10] Alexander's integration of troops: "...interesting to notice that he never - either before or at the time - tried to integrate Greeks into the Macedonian units that were his best military assets, either in the tactical or in the emotional sphere, while at the very end, both for tactical and for political reasons integration of Macedonians and Iranians was important, while integration of *Greeks with either was not*."[11] On Macedonian language: "The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that the *Greek was a difficult indeed a foreign tongue to them*".[12] Alexander never tried to *impose Greek on his Macedonian infantry*, or to integrate it with Greek 'foreign' individuals".[13] On Demosthenes' tirades about Macedonians: "... we are concerned only with sentiment, which is itself historical fact and must be taken seriously as such. In these tirades we find not only the Hellenic descent of Macedonian people (which few seriously accepted) totally denied, but even that of the king."[14] "As regards the Macedonian nation as a whole, (there was as we can see) no division. They were *regarded as clearly barbarian, despite the various myths*.[15] "*Philip had not tried to pass of his Macedonians as Greeks*"[16] "He, *Philip, never tried to make his Macedonians members of the Hellenic league*."[17] "The *feeling of being peoples of nonkindred race existed on both side*" referring to Isocrates' statement.[18] On Python and the 17,000 Greek soldiers cut down by Macedonian soldiers: " the patent needs of the empire and the oath of their commander were swallowed up in the explosion of what we can only regard as the men's irrational *hatred for their Greek enemies*."

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## RagnarofMacedon

*Peter Green
Historian and Professor of Classics at the University of Texas
Alexander of Macedon and Alexander to Actium*

[1] "The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror, *would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did."* [The Greek island on which Peter Green stayed while working on his book, happened to be the same island on which the Greek Colonels, after assuming power in Greece, used it as a dumping-ground for royalist officers and "thinkers with mind of their own".]
[2] "Macedonia was the *first large territorial state* with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe". [p.1]
[3] "No one had forgotten that Alexander I, known ironically as ‘the philhellene’, had been debarred from the Olympic Games until he *manufactured a pedigree* connecting the Argeads with the ancient Argive kings". [p.7] [On p.9 Green refers to this Argive link as *‘fictitious*’.]
[4] Isocrates’ letter to Philip II where he, Isocrates refers to Philip "as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom to consider Hellas your fatherland" Green calls this a *"rhetorical hyperbole".* "Indeed, taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement". [p. 49] *"Its ethnic conceit was only equaled by its naivety"* [p.49]
[5] "And though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage ( a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his *Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress."* [p.50]
[6] "The Greeks had done a deal with Artaxerxes, [Persian commander], and if Philip did not move fast *it would be they who invaded his territory, not he theirs*. In the event, he moved faster than anyone could have predicted." [p.69]
[7] *"The Greek states retained no more than a pale shadow of their former* *freedom".* [p.80] [This is how Philip "united" the Greek states.]
[8] "The dedication of the Philipeum was a salutary reminder that from now on, whatever democratic forms might be employed as a salve to the Greeks’ self-respect, *it was Philip who led and they who followed."*[p.86]
[9] "The Greek states were to make a common peace and alliance with one another, and constitute themselves into a federal Hellenic League. Simultaneously, the league was to form a separate alliance with Macedonia, *though Macedonia itself would not be a league member."* [p.86]
[10] "Philip’s Panhellenism was *no more than a convenient placebo to keep his allies quiet*, a cloak for further Macedonian aggrandizement." [p.87]
[11] "*Most Greek statesmen recognized this only too well*. To them, their self-styled hegemon was still a semi-barbarian autocrat, whose wishes had been imposed on them by right of conquest; and when Alexander succeeded Philip, he inherited the same bitter legacy of hatred and resentment - which his own policies did little to dispel." [p.87]
[12] "The military contingent they supplied were, in reality, so many hostages for their good behavior. As we shall see, whenever they saw the slightest chance of throwing off the Macedonian yoke, they took it." [p. 87]
[13] "Some 15,000 Greek mercenaries, not to mention numerous doctors, technicians and professional diplomats, were already on the Persian pay-roll; twice as many men, in fact, as the league ultimately contributed for the *supposedly Panhellenic crusade against Darius."* [p.95]
[14] "In the early spring of 336, an advance force of 10,000 men, including a thousand cavalry, crossed over to Asia Minor. Its task was to secure the Hellespont, to stockpile supplies, *and in Philip’s pleasantly cynical**phrase, to ‘liberate the Greek cities’."* [p.98] [The operative word is "cynical phrase" to ‘liberate the Greek cities’.]
[15] "Only the Spartans held aloof. The traditions of their country, they informed the king, did not allow them to serve under a *foreign leader.* (So much for Macedonia’s pretensions to Hellenism.) Alexander did not press the point....." [p.121] [The operative word is "a foreign leader" referring to Alexander.]
[16] [Regarding the news of Alexander’s death.] "If anyone had doubts about the report, he quickly suppressed them: this, after all, *was just what every patriotic Greek had hoped and* *prayed might happen."* [p.136]
[17] "Darius reversed his earlier policy of non-intervention, and began to channel gold into Greece wherever he thought it would do most good. He did not, as yet, commit himself to anything more definite: clearly he hoped that the Greek revolt would solve his problem for him. But the mere *thought of a Greek-Persian coalition must have turned Alexander’s blood* *cold."* [p.138]
[18] *"This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as* *such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being* *- to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough* *to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade,* *where were the Greek troops?* [p. 157]
[19] *"Indeed, despite the league’s official veto, far more Greeks fought* *for the Great King - and remained loyal to the bitter end - than* *were ever conscripted by Alexander."* [p.157]
[20] "What is more, the league’s troops were never used in crucial battles (another significant pointer) but kept on garrison and line-of-communication duties. The sole reason for their presence, apart from propaganda purposes, was to serve as hostages for the good behavior of their friends and relatives in Greece. *Alexander found them more of an embarrassment than an asset,* *and the moment he was in a position to do so, he got rid of them."* [p.158]
[21] "Alexander lost no time in getting rid of the league’s forces which accompanied him - *another ironic gloss* on his role as a leader of a Panhellenic crusade." [p.183]
[22] On the subject of "liberating the Greek cities in Asia: "But the euphemism of a ‘contribution’ did not carry the same unpleasant associations; and the whole scheme, with its implication of a united Greek front, must have made *splendid propaganda* for home consumption." [p. 188]
[23] On the league’s crews: "Their own crews, he pointed out, were still half-trained (the cities of the league must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel when they chose them); and - a revealing admission - a defeat at this point might well trigger off a general revolt of the Greek states. So much for the Panhellenic crusade. *Alexander’s main fear,* *we need scarcely doubt, was that the league’s fleet might actually* *desert him if the chance presented itself."* [p.190]
[24] "*The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted* *his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he* *preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion* *rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet."* [p.192]
[25] "The case of Aspendus exposes, with harsh clarity, Alexander’s fundamental objectives in Asia Minor. So long as he received willing cooperation, the pretence of a Panhellenic crusade could be kept up. But any resistance, the least opposition to his will, met with instant and savage reprisals." [p.208]
[26] "The burning of Persepolis had written finish to the Hellenic crusade as such, *and he used this excuse to pay off all his league’s troops*, Parmenio’s Thessalians included. *The crisis in Greece was over: he no longer needed these potential trouble makers as hostages."* [p. 322]
[27] "But Greek public opinion was something of which Alexander took notice *only when it suited him*; and the league served him as a blanket excuse for various questionable or underhand actions, the destruction of Thebes being merely the most notorious." [p.506-7]
[28] "It is significant that two native rising occurred on the news of Alexander’s death, and both of these, as we shall see in a moment, *involved Greeks*; *there were otherwise no ingenuous revolts against the colonial government*." [p.6. "Alex. to Actium"]
[29] *"But then, Eumenes was a Greek, and Macedonian troops, especially* *the old sweats who had served under Philip II, were never really comfortable* *being led by non-Macedonians."* [p.7. "Alex. to Actium".]
[30] "Nearcus never came to much among the Successors: but then he, like Eumenes, *was a Greek*; worse still, he was a Cretan, and thus a proverbial liar." [p.7. "Alex. to Actium"]
One can clearly see the distinction between ancient Macedonians and the Greeks. Modern Greek's assertion that ancient Macedonians were Greeks simply does not hold any water.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*A.B. Bosworth 
Professor of Classics and Ancient History, The University of Western Australia
On the Macedonian language and ethnicity of the Macedonian Army*[1] Bosworth responds to Hammond regarding the usage of the Macedonian language by Alexander: "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the linguistic status of ancient Macedonian. It has little significance outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought. What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in Curtius, *that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians.* Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian. However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to the phalangites of Neoptolemus by a man fluent in Macedonian (MAKEDONI/ZONTA TH]=FWNH]=:PSI 12. 1284,col. ii. 19-20).] *"Alexander shouted out in Macedonian, and called the hypaspists in Macedonian."* *In my view there is nothing at all surprising in the use of Macedonian. Alexander was calling* *his hypaspists, who were Macedonians, and he addressed them in their native language/dialect."*[2] In Hammond's view the soldiers from Lower Macedonia (old kingdom) spoke Macedonian while the soldiers from the Upper Macedonia spoke a dialect of West Greek.Bosworth's response: "The evidence for this hypothesis is decidedly tenuous. Nearly two centuries before Alexander Hecataeus may have described the Orestians as a Molossian tribe, but, as far as I can ascertain, there is no evidence for the language of any or all of the Upper Macedonian people before the time of Alexander, *and nothing to suggest that the hypaspists were anything other than linguistically homogeneous."* "*Alexander's invitation to speak (Curt. 6. 9. 34) presupposes that the entire army spoke Macedonian."* *"Alexander's challenge presupposes that all the army would understand an address in Macedonian."* *"He used Macedonian because the troops would instantly understand and (he expected) would react immediately. There is no need for more complicated explanation."*It is evident from the text of Arrian, Plutarch, and Curtius Rufus that *Alexander's army spoke Macedonian and not Greek*. Any other interpretation would be intolerably difficult, if not impossible, to accept.[3] About the Macedonian army: "The turning point in the evolution of Alexander's army appears to have been the year 330. Until then the Macedonian component was progressively reinforced, reaching peaks before Issus and after the arrival of Amyntas' great contingent late in 331*. Alexander then thought it safe to divest himself of non Macedonian troops.* The forces from the Corinthean League, [the Greek] infantry and cavalry, were demobilized from Ecbetana in the spring of 330; [Arr. III.19.6-7; Plut. Al. 42.5; Diod. XVII.74.3-4; Curt. VI.2.17] even the [Greek] Thessalian cavalry who re-enlisted were dismissed at the Oxus last than a year later (Arr. III.29.5) Alexander now relied on the Macedonian nucleus for front-line work and the mercenaries for support function*."* [p.271] Conquest and Empire."Alexander had deliberately retained the offsprings of his Macedonian veterans when he demobilized them, promising to train them in Macedonian style.(Arr. VII.12.2; Justin XII.4.2-10.) His ultimate purpose was to weld them into a military force without attachment of race or domicile, loyal to himself alone. The transformation *of the Macedonian national army* with its regionally based units could not have been more complete." [p.273] Conquest and Empire[4] Bosworth on the allied (including Greek) troops: "The structure of command seems to have been parallel to that of the Macedonian cavalry, with regionally based ilai, *but at the head was a Macedonian* commander. The rest of the [Greek] allied cavalry, predominantly from central Greece and the Peloponnese, *was much less important and effective, fewer in number and* *less prominent in action*. Like the [Greek] Thessalian they were divided into ilai (Tod. GHI no 197.3) *under the command of a Macedonian officer."* [p.264] Conquest and Empire"The infantry from the allied Greek states is more problematic. They formed a contingent numerically strong, 7,000 of them crossing the Hellespont in 334, and they were predominantly heavy-armed hoplites. *But once in Asia they are mainly* *notable for their absence.* *There is no explicit record of them in any of the major battles.* At Guagamela we may infer that they provided most of the men for the reserve phalanx (Arr. III.12.1), *but in the other engagements there is no room for them.* *They are only mentioned as participants in subsidiary* *campaigns, usually under Parmenio's command (in the Troad, at* *the Amanid Gates, in Phrygia, and in the march on Persis),* *and they never appear in the entourage of Alexander."* [p.264] Conquest and Empire[Point of Interest] Are these the Greek troops with Alexander? Are these the same Greek troops with Alexander that went on the Asian conquest? Can Alexander's conquest be called a Greek conquest? Can Alexander's army be called Greek army? There is absolutely nothing in the literature to even remotely suggest that my quest to find and bring forward documented evidence for the ethnic affinity of the ancient Macedonians is losing steam. On the contrary, *the conclusion is solidified with avery passing sentence:* *There was no Greek conquest with Alexander.* *There was nothing Greek with Alexander or his Macedonians.*[5] "There was also the *question of loyalty*. Alexander might well have been reluctant to rely on men recently vanquished at Chaeronea to face the Hellenic mercenaries in Persian service. *It was too much kin against kin,* and *his Greek* *allies* naturally had less stomach for the task than *his native Macedonians."* [p.264] Conquest and Empire[6]* Alexander's views on the Greeks in Asia.* We should never deviate too far from our main focal point to find and present demonstrable evidence where Alexander's actions and policies strongly and convincingly illustrate his innermost feelings and aspirations. Here, you will see that Alexander treated the Greeks in Asia as any other conquered people, and that is a testament, by itself, that, he, Alexander did not view the Greeks as his own people. Judging by his actions, one will be hard press to find any difference between his treatment of the Greeks and that of the barbarians."It is most unlikely that the Greeks of Asia were incorporated in the Corinthian League. This is an issue which has been endlessly debated with surprising intensity, but arguments inevitably founders on the lack of evidence. That silence does have some weight. If the Greek cities had been involved in the League with its symmachical obligations, it is remarkable that there is never any reference to alliance or even to a formal treaty. As we have seen repeatedly, *Alexander dealt with them as a victorious despot* *not as the executive head of an expanding League."*[p.255], *"As he continued east, the Greeks receded into obscurity* *and there is virtually no record of them.*" [p.256] [_Conquest and Empire_][7] Ancient authors testify that Alexander heavily depended on his Macedonians, whom he called 'his kinsmen', to carry the brunt of his campaign. *"Alexander himself seems to have made little distinction in his last**years between Greeks of Europe or Asia, or even between* *Greeks and barbarians."* [p.257][Point of Interest] And this fact alone, must be constantly born in mind when one ascribes any "greekness" to Alexander. For, Alexander would not put his own people in an equal balance with the barbarians of the East. Was Alexander the Great a Greek King? Does this action suggest anything of a sort? It is morally corrupt, and historically incorrect to even suggest that Alexander the Great belonged to any other nation but Macedonia. He remained loyal to his royal Macedonian heritage to the last day of his life.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*N.G.L. Hammond
Professor of Greek University of Cambridge*

Hammond is one of the modern writers representing the ‘Greek’ position. It’s interesting to note that Hammond had changed his position. His earlier position was that the Macedonians spoke a "patois which was *not recognizable* as a normal Doric Greek but *may have been* a north-west-Greek dialect of a primitive kind" (in other words he couldn’t say for sure). Later however, he changed this position and launched his "firm conclusion" that the Macedonians now spoke a dialect of Aeolic Greek, i.e. the ancient Macedonians were Greek, *despite* of the overwhelming and extensive research done by Badian and Borza which proved the opposite. Interestingly, he had done this ‘transformation’ towards firm Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, *during* the period when the modern Greek propaganda intensified in spreading their "Macedonians are Greek" position, a position which was later used against the part of the modern Macedonian nation that was in a process of getting independence (today’s Republic of Macedonia). It may look like Hammond is a ‘Greek agent’ whose writings reflect the wishes of modern Greece and it’s propaganda, however, in that process he proved that he was obviously ignorant to many of the ancient sources that do not conclude what he concludes. He is also ignorant to many modern sources as well, particularly the ones of Borza, Green, and Badian which have proven in-depth that the Macedonians could not have been Greek. It should be pointed out that Hammond had been proven incorrect in many matters (not just the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians) regarding the history of Macedonia, specifically by the Macedonian specialist Borza. His views are nowadays corrected and regarded as outdated.Although Hammond believes that the Ancient Macedonians had a Greek origin, he however, contradicts himself in few passages where he clearly separates the ancient Macedonians from the ancient Greeks:"We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the *Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks*. *Herodotus said this clearly in four words*, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4), and *Thucydides described the Macedonians and other northern tribes as 'barbarians' in the sense of 'non-Greeks'*, despite the fact that they were Greek-speaking. (Thuc. 2. 80. 5-7; 2. 81. 6; 4. 124.1) When it comes to political controversy, it was naturally good invective to call the king a barbarian too. Thus a Greek speesh-writer called the Thessalians 'Greeks' and Archelaus, the contemporary Macedonian king, 'a barbarian'. Demosthenes spoke of Philip II as 'the barbarian from Pella'."*Point of Interest:* I will stop Hammond here and analyze his last words. He begins by saying that the Macedonians were considered non-Greek. At the end he says that the Macedonians, including their kings were called barbarians i.e. non-Greeks, but he implies that they were really Greek, and were called non-Greek only due to "political controversy". This is not convincing at all. If the ancient Greeks referred to the Macedonians as barbarians only because of political conflict, *then why other Greek tribes are not called barbarian or non-Greek by the ancient Greeks*. That *never happened*, during *any* of the so many political conflicts, "controversies", and wars among the Greek city-states, not involving the Macedonians. Furthermore, the ancient Greeks referred to the Persians as barbarians too. According to Hammond’s logic the Persians are therefore Greek too, but were called non-Greek only because ancient Greece was in "political controversy" with Persia. Hammond’s words obviously make no sense. The ancient Greeks called very clearly all non-Greeks barbarians (Macedonians and Persians included), and any try to change the meaning of that word only in the case of the Macedonians, is ridiculous and can be ascribed as siding with the modern Greek propaganda. Now let’s examine the rest of Hammond’s words:"Writing in 346 and eager to win Philip's approval, *Isocrates paid tribute to Philip as a blue-blooded Greek and made it clear at the same time that Macedonians were not Greeks*. (Isoc. 5. 108 and 154) *Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek*, as we shall see shortly. *It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so*."Interesting (inadvertent) reversals in Hammond narrative: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able *foreigners, especially Greeks*, to their service, and many of these were made Companions (e.g. Nearchus a Cretan, Eumenes a citizen of Cardia, and Sitalces a member of the Odrysian royal family). Some of them, if they served in the King's Army, were given Macedonian citizenship, which apparently was in the gift of the king." _The Macedonian State_ p.141Points of interest: These phrase alone claims that:(a)Macedonia was a not a Greek land, and(b)that Macedonians were not GreeksOne does not attract foreigners from his own country, and second, one cannot be called a foreigner in his own country."These instances show us that even Philip II and Alexander III introduced *very few Greeks* into the Assembly of Macedones. They wanted the 'Macedones' to have their own esprit the corps; and those of them who came from Lower Macedonia continued to speak the *Macedonian dialect among themselves and to address the king or a commander in that dialect as a sign of affection*."[53-an ordinary soldier is represented as speaking in the Macedonian dialect to the dying Alexander in Ps-Callisthenes B 32. 14 (ed. Kroll), and the Macedonian soldiers greeted Eumenes in the Macedonian dialect when he came to command them (Plu. Eum. 14. 11). [p.64]"The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer from Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor of Thessalians, who spoke Greek."*Response to Hammond's conclusion that the Macedonians were Greek:*[1] There were many tribes in Macedonia. If we accept Macedon to be the progenitor of his tribe, where is the connection for the rest of the Macedonian tribes? What about the Lynchestians, Elimiotes, Eordians, Orestians etc., etc.. Besides; In the 'Catalogue of Women', the eponymous founder of Makedonia, Makedon, was the son of Zeus and Deukalion's daughter Thuia. This line of descent *excludes* him from the Hellenic geneology - and hence, by implication, the Makedonians from the ranks of Hellenism." (Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, by J.Hall, p.64)[2] Professor Borza who is credited as Macedonian specialist and who had completed an extensive research on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, had proven that Hammond's conclusions that the Macedonians were Greek are inaccurate:"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonians spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, *resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus*, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - *do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect*. *And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form*". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)*"As a question of method: why would [Macedonia] an area three hundred miles north of Athens - not**colonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic* *dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization.* *To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek,* *what is its Macedonian dialect?"*The above passage showed us clearly that Hammond, no mater how firm he stands on his ‘Greek’ position, still contradicts himself by saying that the Macedonians and the Greeks are two separate ethnic groups. The lines of Professor Eugene Borza, had put an end to the Hammond’s speculations of the supposed Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, and proven on many instances (not just on the ethnicity issue) in _In the Shadow of Olympus_ and _Makedonika_, that Hammond’s work on the Macedonian history is inaccurate and as such should be rejected.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*Werner Jaeger 
Demosthenes*Here, in these excerpts from Jeager's book, you will find Demosthenes' hatred for Macedon not only readily displayed and exercised, but its Hellenic descent categorically excluded and implicitly denied. The fact that some modern authors ascribe Hellenic affinity to the ancient Macedonians should come to no great surprise because of the impact left by Johan Gustav Droysen on early nineteenth-century historian where Macedon is depicted as a natural "unifier" of the Greek city-states, the same role played by Prussia and Savoy in German and Italian unification in the nineteenth century. "On this false analogy the whole of Greek history was now boldly reconstructed as a necessary process of development leading quite naturally to a single goal: unification of the Greek nation under Macedonian leadership".Demosthenes and most of his contemporaries did not see it that way; to them the leadership of Macedon was seen as the 'death of Greek political liberty' Some people dismiss Demosthenes' outbursts as a political rhetoric, others hold his political abuse of Philip from Macedon as historical facts, undeniably blunt and truthful. His sentiments are, in this case, fundamental historical documents, which testify to the simmering hate and the undamped contempt for the Macedonian conqueror. The hands of the sculptor are being replaced by his sharply cutting tongue. At the end the features emerge to the surface unpretentiously clear and aggressive. Demosthenes unlike Isocrates does not mask his national ideals with "Panhellenistic union" against the Persians, but boldly and aggressively calls his Hellenic nation to an uprising against the barbarian from the north -the Kingdom of Macedon and its king Philip.Demosthenes' cries and pleas are not intended for his beloved Athens only, but to every liberty loving Hellene, and even the Persians themselves. He calls on the Persians to join the Hellenes in the war against Macedon, and at the same time he warns them that if they leave the Greeks in the lurch, they would be next Philip's victim. As destiny would have it, Demosthenes was right. Here we go:[1] "_On the Symmories,_ namely, that Demosthenes originally stood close to a group of politicians who were vigorously combating the radical democratic influence; indeed, it is only to this degree that he can be said to have come from any one party at all. It is true that in later years, when he is coming to grips with the *danger of Macedonia's foreign yoke,* he naturally appeals to the lofty ideal of Greek liberty." [p.93][2] "It is not until Demosthenes is fighting the* "tyranny"* of the *Macedonian* *conqueror* that the idea of liberty takes on its true color for him and becomes significant as a *great national good*." [p.93][3] "Even then this watchword of "liberty" serves solely to promote his (Demosthenes' foreign policy; but by that time it has really become an essential factor in his envisagement of the world about him, in which *Greece and Macedonia are polar opposites,* *irreconcilable morally, spiritually, intellectually."* [p.93-4][4] "Thereupon all Thessaly submitted to him of its own accord. He was acclaimed as a deliverer and named commander-in-chief of the Thessalian confederacy. He would have marched at once into central Greece as a conquering hero and would probably have brought the war to an end there with a single blow, had not the Athenians and Spartans bestirred themselves to send auxilary troops to Thermopylae, *thus shutting against him this gateway* *to Hellas."* [p.114][5] "In the _Panegyricus_ he [Isocrates] had urged an understanding between Sparta and Athens, so that the Greeks might unite in a common expedition against the Persian empire. Nothing of that sort was any longer thinkable. But the policy of which he now had such high hopes offered a surprisingly simple solution for the distressing problem that lay heavily on all minds the problem of what was to be the *ultimate relationship between* *Greece and the new power in the north."* [p.152][6] "If Philip was not *to remain a permanent menace to the Greek world* *from outside*, it was necessary to get him positively involved in the fate of Hellas; for he could not be eluded. Of course in the view of any of the Greek states of the period, this problem was comparable to that of squaring the circle." [p.152][7] "But for Isocrates that was no obstacle. He had long since come to recognize the *impossibility of resisting Macedonia,* and he was only trying to find *the least humiliating way to express the unavoidable submission of* *all the Greeks to the will of Philip.* Here again he found the solution in a scheme for Macedonian hegemony over Greece. For it seems as if Philip's appearance in this role would be most effective way to mitigate his becoming so dominant a factor in Greek history; moreover, it ought to silence all *Greek prejudices against the culturally and ethnically* *alien** character of the Macedonians."* [p.153][8] "*With the help of the role that Isocrates had assigned to him, he had the astuteness* *to let his cold-blooded policy for the extension of Macedonian power* *take on the eyes of the* *Greeks the appearance** of a work of liberation for Hellas.* What he most needed at this moment was not force but *shrewd propaganda;*and nobody lent himself to this purpose so effectively as the old Isocrates, venerable and disinterested, who offered his services of his own free will." [p.155][9] "Philip now had the problem of compelling the Athenians to recognize the Delphic resolutions aimed against Phocis; and he sent ambassadors to Athens, where strong opposition prevailed. However, with the Macedonian army only a few day's march from the Attic border and in good fighting trim, Athens was quite defenseless, and even *Demosthenes advised submission."* [p.157][10] "When Demosthenes draws up his list of Philip's transgressions, it includes *his offense against the whole of Greece*, not merely those against Athens; and Demosthenes' charge of unbecoming remissness *is aimed at all the Greeks* equally- their irresolution, and their failure to perceive their common cause." [p.171][11] "Therefore he (Demosthenes) urges them *to send embassies everywhere* *to call the Greeks together*--to assemble them, teach them, and exhort them; but the paramount need is to take the necessary steps themselves and thus perform their duty." [p.171][12] "*In this appeal to the whole Greek world* Demosthenes reached a decisive turning point in his political thought................He was still thoroughly rooted in Athens's governmental traditions, never overstepping the bounds of her classical balance-of-power *policy for the interior of Greece*. But the appearance of the* mighty new enemy* *from beyond the Greek frontier* now forced him to take a different track." [p.171-2][13] "Looking *far beyond the actualities of the Greek world*, hopelessly split asunder as it was, he (Isocrates) had envisaged a united nation led by the Macedonian king." [p.172][14] "Quite apart, however, from any theoretical doubts whether the nationalistic movement of modern times, which seeks to combine in a single state all the individuals of a single folk, can properly be compared with the Greek idea of Panhellenism, scholars have failed to notice that after the unfortunate Peace of Philocrates *Demosthenes' whole policy* *was an unparalleled fight for national unification.* *In this period he deliberately threw off the constrains of the politician* *concerned exclusively with Athenian interests*, and devoted himself to a task more lofty than any Greek statesman before him had ever projected or indeed could have projected.* In this respect he is quite comparable to Isocrates;* *but an important point of contrast still remains.* *The difference is simply that Demosthenes did not think of this "unification"* *as a more or less voluntary submission to the will of the conqueror;* *on the contrary,* *he demanded a unanimous uprising of all the Greeks against the* *Macedonian foe**."* [p.172][15] "His Panhellenism was the outgrowth of a resolute will for national self-assertiveness, deliberately opposed to the national self-surrender called for by Isocrates - for that was what Isocrates' program had really meant, despite its being expressed romantically as a plan for a Persian war under Macedonian leadership." [p.172-3][16] "As the success of his appeal was to show, he was correct in his estimate of the actual political prospects of a really *national uprising* now that direct hostile pressure was felt. Since the days of the Persian wars *Hellas had at no time been seriously* *endangered from without."* [p.173][17] "The foe and the emergency [Macedon and its king Philip] had now appeared; and if *the Greeks still had a spark of their fathers' sense of independence*, the fate that was now overtaking them could not but bring them together.* The Third Philippic is one mighty avowal of this* *brand of Panhellenism; and this is entirely Demosthenes' achievement."* [p.173][18] "The task that confronted Demosthenes demanded utterly gigantic powers of improvisation; for the *Greek people* had not been making preparedness an end in itself for years as the *enemy had done*, and they also found it hard to adjust themselves spiritually to their new situation. In the Third Philippic Demosthenes' prime effort was to break down this spiritual resistance, and everything hinged on his success." [p.174][Greek people on one side, and the enemy on the other. Were Macedonians seen as Greeks by the ancient Greeks? Did the Greeks have the enemy from within their own kin? Were there some Greeks who were making preparations for a war, and other Greeks who were not? It is a clear no, since the Macedonians were not Greek][19] "Demosthenes speaks of embassies to be sent to the Peloponnesus, to Rhodes and Chios, *and even to the king of Persia, to call for resistance against the conqueror*." [p.177][Point of Interest] Greeks were sending embassies to the king of Persia to ally with them against the conqueror from the north - Macedonia and its king Philip. One needs not be a scholar to see through the lies propagated by today's Greeks when they claim that Macedonia was a part of Greece and Philip was their king. *"It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks".* *[Karagatsis - a Greek writer]*[20] Demosthenes' call for a *national uprising* was slowly gaining strength; Corinth and Achaea went over to the Athenian side, Messenia, Arcadia and Argos were won over and lined themselves behind the program. In March of the year 340 the treaty was formerly concluded at Athens. *Even Athens and Thebes* reconciled and joined *his national program*. "The true greatness of these achievements -- achievements for which the citizens of Athens honored Demosthenes with a golden crown at the Dionysia of 340 - was rightly appreciated by the ancient historians." [p.178][21] "If the Persian leaves us in the lurch and anything should happen to us, nothing will hinder Philip from attacking the Persian king." [Fourth Philippic] [p.181][22] *"*For historians of the old school,* Greek history ended when the Greek states* *lost their political liberty; they looked upon it as a closed story, mounting* *to a heroic finish at Chaeronea."* *[p.188]*[23] *"*For if any* non-Greek power, whether Persian or Macedonian,* were to achieve world dominion, the typical form of the Greek state would suffer death and destruction." [p.188][24] "Anyone who had assured himself that Macedonian hegemony would lead to the inner unification of the Greeks, was bound to be *disappointed*. Philip surrounded Athens with four Macedonian garrisons placed at respectful distances, and left everything else to his supporters and agents in the cities." [p.191][25] The first resolution passed by Synedrion at Corinth was the declaration of war against Persia. *"The difference was that this war of conquest, which was passionately* *described as a war of vengeance, was not looked upon as a means* *of uniting the Greeks**, as Isocrates would have had it, but was* *merely an instrument of Macedonian imperialism."* [p.192][26] "But although the Greek people thus came to play a uniquely influential role as pioneers of culture and, to that degree, as inheritors of the Macedonian empire*, politically they had simply dropped out of the ranks of free peoples, even if Philip* *abstained from formally making Hellas a Macedonian province.** The Greeks were* *themselves aware of this."* [p.192][27] "Outwardly, the "autonomous" city-states kept their relations with Macedonia on a fairly strict level of rectitude. Inwardly, the time was one of dull pressure and smoldering distrust, flaring up to a bright flame at the least sign of any tremor or weakness in* Macedonia's alien rule - for that is how her surveillance* *was generally regarded. This excruciating state of affairs continued as long as* *any hope remained. Only when the last ray of hope was exctinguished and the last* *uprising had met disaster, did quiet finally settle down upon Greece --* *the quiet of the graveyard."* [p.192][28] (Aeschines attempt to triumph over Demosthenes for the last and final round backfires with Demosthenes' heroics in "_The Crown"._ Demosthenes at the end received the crown.) "But though *Athens was powerless against the might of her Macedonian* *conqueror, she retained her independence of judgment and declared that no history* *could confute Demosthenes."* [p.196][29] *"Then when Alexander suddenly died in the flower of his age,* *and Greece rose again for the last time, Demosthenes offered his services* *and returned to Athens. But after winning a few brilliant successes, the Greeks lost their* *admirable commander Leosthenes on the field of battle; and his successors* *was slain at Crannon on the anniversary of Chaeronea; the Athenians* *then capitulated, and, under pressure of threats from Macedonia, suffered* *themselves to condemn to death the leader of the "revolt"."* [p.196]Demosthenes died from a dose of poison on the island of Calauria, in the altar of Poseidon. Forty years later Athens honored him for eternity. Such was the destiny of a man whose ideals were his people, his country and their liberty. When modern Greeks dismiss him (in order to divert the stinging truth of his oratory) as a mere politician and his arousing oratory against Macedonia and the Macedonian conqueror as a political rhetoric, they, the modern Greeks, denounce the true Greek spirit, devoid of which, they, themselves, are.[30] "The dispute of modern scholars over the racial stock of the Macedonians have led to many interesting suggestions. This is especially true of the philological analysis of the remains of the Macedonian language by O. Hoffmann in his _Makedonen_ etc. Cf. the latest general survey of the controversy in F. Geyer and his chapter on prehistory. But even if the Macedonians did have some Greek blood- as well as Illyrian- in their veins, whether originally or by later admixture, *this would not justify us in considering them on a par with the Greeks in point of race or in using this as historical excuse for legitimizing the claims of this bellicose peasant folk to lord it over cousins in the south of the Balkan peninsula so far ahead of them in culture.*It is likewise *incorrect to assert*that this is the only way in which we can understand the role of the Macedonian conquest in Hellenizing the Orient. But we can neglect this problem here, as our chief interest lies in discovering what the Greeks themselves felt and thought. And here we need not cite Demosthenes' well-known statements; for Isocrates himself, the very man who heralds the idea of Macedonian leadership in Hellas, *designates the people of Macedonia as members of an alien race in Phil.108*. He purposely *avoids the word barbaroi*but this word is one that inevitably finds a place for itself in the *Greek struggle for national independence* and expresses the views of every true Hellene. Even Isocrates would not care to have *the Greeks ruled by the Macedonian people*: it is only the king of Macedonia, Philip, who is to be the new leader; and the orator tries to give ethnological proof of Philip's qualifications for this task by the device of showing that he is no son of his people but, like the rest of his dynasty, a scion of Heracles, and therefore of Greek blood." [p.249]*[Point of Interest]*(a) Macedonians cannot be considered as Greeks even if they had some Greek blood in their veins.(b) Macedonia's conquest of the Orient should not be contingent upon Greek culture.(c) Isocrates places the Macedonians with alien races and hitherto, outside the Hellenic world.(d) Isocrates takes care of this "alien race" not to be seen as leaders of Greece. He isolates their king Philip as not of the same race as the people over which he governs.*Note:* The speech _On the Chersonese_ was, to be sure, delivered in a specifically Athenian emergency; but the interest of the Greeks as a whole is never left out of sight. The _Third Philippic_ is entirely dedicated to the danger that threatens all Greece. Similarly, when the past and future are compared, it is the whole of Hellas that is considered, not Athens alone.Once again, it is not surprising that Jeager places the ancient Macedonians outside the Greek ethnic world. Fact is that when an author follows the writings of the ancient biographers it is almost impossible for anybody to come to a different conclusion.

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## RagnarofMacedon

*History of Macedonia*
*George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford*
Ancient History of Chaldaea, Assyria, Media, Babylonia, Lydia, Phoenicia, Syria, Judaea, Egypt, Carthage, Persia, Greece, Macedonia, Parthia, and Rome., The Colonial Press, New York, 1899.
*PART I (ca. B.C. 700 to B.C. 323)**From the Commencement of the Monarchy to the Death of Alexander the Great*According to the tradition generally accepted by the Greeks, the Macedonian kingdom, which under Philip and Alexander attained to such extraordinary greatness, was founded by Hellenic emigrants from Argos. *The Macedonians themselves were not Hellenes*; they belonged to the barbaric races, not greatly differing from the Greeks in ethnic type, but far behind them in civilization, which bordered Hellas upon the north. They were a distinct race, not Paeonian, not Illyrian, not Thracian; but, of the three, their connection was closest with the Illyrians. The Argive colony, received hospitably, gradually acquired power in the region about Mount Bermius; and Perdiccas, one of the original emigrants, was (according to Herodotus) acknowledged as king. (Other writers mentioned three kings anterior to Perdiccas, whose joint reigns covered the space of about a century.) The period which follows is one of great obscurity, little being known of it but the names of the kings (p.164-165)

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## RagnarofMacedon

*Pausanias 
Greek Historian*"Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united *Greeks defeated the Macedonians* in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" [1.1.3]."I have already said in my history of Attica that *the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks*" [9.6.5]. "After the death of Alexander, *when the Greeks had raised a second war against the Macedonians*, the Messenians took part, as I have shown earlier in my account of Attica" [4.28.3]."When Philip the son of Amyntas would not let Greece alone, the Eleans, weakened by civil strife, joined the Macedonian alliance, but they could not bring themselves to fight against the Greeks at Chaeronea. They joined Philip's attack on the Lacedaemonians because of their old hatred of that people, but on the death of Alexander they fought on the side of the *Greeks against Antipater and the Macedonians*" [5.4.9]."When Philip, the son of Demetrius, reached men's estate, and Antigonus without reluctance handed over the *sovereignty of the Macedonians, he struck fear into the hearts of all the Greeks*. He copied Philip, the son of Amyntas" [7.7.5].

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## Fatherland

Macedonians were non-Greek tribes who became Greek over time. Same deal with the Dorians, Albanians, Scythians and Slavs who came to Greece.

No need to complicate things further by people here posting walls of irrelevant texts.

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## RagnarofMacedon

> Macedonians were non-Greek tribes who became Greek over time. Same deal with the Dorians, Albanians, Scythians and Slavs who came to Greece.
> 
> No need to complicate things further by people here posting walls of irrelevant texts.


Became Greek ? With what action ? Because some of them accepting Hellenism ? Hellenism was religious thing in that time, in that time there where not GREEKS or GREECE... Hellenes were different kind of ethnicities Assyrians,Egyptianss,Persians,Jews etc... not only nowdays "Greeks"...
Maybe some of them accepted hellenism and maybe they mixed with some marriages...And thats not IRRELEVANT texts ... thats texts from most famouse historians from antique like from modern time...

Macedonians were not Greeks...
marriages

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## Tutkun Arnaut

> Became Greek ? With what action ? Because some of them accepting Hellenism ? Hellenism was religious thing in that time, in that time there where not GREEKS or GREECE... Hellenes were different kind of ethnicities Assyrians,Egyptianss,Persians,Jews etc... not only nowdays "Greeks"...
> Maybe some of them accepted hellenism and maybe they mixed with some marriages...And thats not IRRELEVANT texts ... thats texts from most famouse historians from antique like from modern time...
> 
> Macedonians were not Greeks...
> marriages


you are confusing it with Rome. Rome became an ideal, not only the city. beaming with pride Greeks up to 100 years ago were calling themselves Romei,. Then king Otto from Germany told them: we are going to call you Greeks aand Greeks accepted. You are right Greeks are a mixture of ethnicities, not a single ethnicity

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## RagnarofMacedon

That the Macedonian was a distinct vernacular characteristic to the Macedonians confirm the anti-Macedonian speeches given by the great orator from Athens, Demosthenes. In his work "Philippic" Demosthenes gave the following insulting remark about the Macedonian King Philip II of Macedon:
"That man Philip, not only he is not a Greek, but also he does not have anything in common with the Greeks. If only he would have been a barbarian from a decent country - but he is not even that. He is a scabby creature from Macedonia - a land that one can not even bring a slave that is worth something from".15)
The question why Demosthenes named Philip as a barbarian becomes imminent. Majority of the scientists believe that the term "barbarians" in the ancient period was used to refer mainly to people that spoke language that Greeks could not understand, usually accompanied by a dose of disregard towards the culture of the people speaking that language. It is well known that all the people that did not speak Greek were named "barbarians", whereas the Greeks from the city-states used the word "xenoi" when referring to one-another.16)
Demosthenes was not alone in naming the Macedonians "barbarians". Ancient Greek historian Isocrates also called the Macedonians "barbarians".17)

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## Yetos

*
So at WW2 the Germans attack the Netherlands,
and Netherlands resist,,


So By your Logic Ragnaro, 

Deutsch are Germans, Dutsch are Not?*  :Lmao:  :Lmao:  :Lmao:  :Lmao:  :Lmao:  :Lmao:  :Lmao: *

WHAT A LOGIC? SMART INDEED*  :Depressed:  :Depressed:

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## RagnarofMacedon

> *
> So at WW2 the Germans attack the Netherlands,
> and Netherlands resist,,
> 
> 
> So By your Logic Ragnaro, 
> 
> Deutsch are Germans, Dutsch are Not?* *
> 
> WHAT A LOGIC? SMART INDEED*



"I have already said in my history of Attica that *the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks" [9.6.5].

Bye *

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## Nik

Yes, great articles Ragnar but what's your take on this? You are not proving that they were Slavs, and you're not proving that you're Makedonian either. 

You're just a modern North Macedonian Slav. 

Yetos might be a Greek, but he has way more real Makedonian blood than any of you Slavo-Paeonians.

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## Aspar

> Yes, great articles Ragnar but what's your take on this? You are not proving that they were Slavs, and you're not proving that you're Makedonian either. 
> 
> You're just a modern North Macedonian Slav. 
> 
> Yetos might be a Greek, but he has way more real Makedonian blood than any of you Slavo-Paeonians.



Most Macedonians today have some ancestry from Makedonia which is now in Greece so I don't get what you mean by having a real Makedonian blood or Paeonian...

These maps represent the real situation in Makedonia before the Greeks changed not only the population living there but the names of cities, villages, mountains, rivers etc., in other words, an ethnic cleansing without precedence, which is still neglected in modern world and not many know about it...











Now, these maps are not made up by me as you can see but are real maps by ethnographers from around the world regarding the period before the Balkan wars and mainly at the end of 19th century.

The Greeks even made a propaganda about us as having been a recent Macedonians made by Tito, but if we take some accounts of some ethnographers, let's say the Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov and his ethnographic book about Macedonia in the 19th century, according to who the local Bulgarians and Vlachs in Macedonia call themselves *Macedonians*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedo...s#cite_note-10

As we see, Kanchov calls these people local Bulgarians but it's not important how he calls them, what is important it's how they call themselves and here goes "Tito made us" down the drain...

At the best, the modern people of North Macedonia can be described as a Macedonian-Slavic mix with additional Albanian, Vlach and Serb mixture here and there or else why should I have only a Paeonian blood when my ancestry mainly comes from the borders of ancient Macedonia which today's south-eastern part of North Macedonia and municipality of Kukus and Gumendza in today's Greece belonged to...

The problem is that the Greeks try to denounce us of anything Macedonian related and to embrace Paeonian, Slavic, Bulgar or anything else but not Macedonian which I've explained before is not something recent but my own ancestors were calling themselves Macedonians at least since the 19th century, long before Tito...

If anything, Macedonia has long ago stopped being solely Greek, if it ever was, but had became also Latin, Illyrian and Slavic at least since the 6th century AD.

By these I mean only a linguistic affiliation as taking it as an ethnic denomination is pure madness since the Latins, Illyrians, Slavs are ancient and early medieval people while modern nations are mixture of those...

Saying you are just a "North Macedonian Slav" has exactly the same idiocy as saying you are just an English German, an Irish or Scottish Celt, a French or Spanish Latin...

It would be interesting seeing the Scots start telling to the English to go back in Germany or that they are just British Germans as some of this stupidity is occurring in modern Balkans...

----------


## Nik

> Most Macedonians today have some ancestry from Makedonia which is now in Greece so I don't get what you mean by having a real Makedonian blood or Paeonian...
> 
> These maps represent the real situation in Makedonia before the Greeks changed not only the population living there but the names of cities, villages, mountains, rivers etc., in other words, an ethnic cleansing without precedence, which is still neglected in modern world and not many know about it...
> 
> Now, these maps are not made up by me as you can see but are real maps by ethnographers from around the world regarding the period before the Balkan wars and mainly at the end of 19th century.
> 
> The Greeks even made a propaganda about us as having been a recent Macedonians made by Tito, but if we take some accounts of some ethnographers, let's say the Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil Kanchov and his ethnographic book about Macedonia in the 19th century, according to who the local Bulgarians and Vlachs in Macedonia call themselves *Macedonians*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedo...s#cite_note-10
> 
> As we see, Kanchov calls these people local Bulgarians but it's not important how he calls them, what is important it's how they call themselves and here goes "Tito made us" down the drain...
> ...


Makedonia started as a separate ethnic group and small kingdom north of Thessaly and dare I say a cultural extension of people of Epirotic and South Illyrian stock. 

Eventually it grew slightly bigger into becoming the region of Makedonia located in modern Greece, and eventually an even bigger geographical designation during the Roman Empire. 

So when part of your Slavic ancestors came they found in Makedonia (geographically) the ancestors of Vlachs, Albanians, and Greeks, so them taking the name Macedonian means nothing since your compatriot here is talking about the Makedonians during the reign of Philip. Therefore, we need to discuss about the Makedonian ancestry in a stricter sense than the Medieval geographical term. 

I'm aware that some of your compatriots were kicked out from Greece and settled in modern North Macedonia, but we're talking about a country where officially 1/4 of the population is Albanian, a large chunk of ex-Albanian orthodox people that are forced to accept the Macedonian identity while striving for equality, an unknown number of Vlachs which is the ethnic group absorbed the most by others (Albanians being second), and the vast majority of fake Turks (being mostly Albanian and Vlachs) which constituted 15-20% of the population until half a century ago.

----------


## Cyrus

According to the Middle Persian sources, Alexander was an Egyptian.

----------


## Yetos

> "I have already said in my history of Attica that *the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks" [9.6.5].
> 
> Bye *



Which Greeks?
the central Greeks? the North Greeks? the Greeks in Asia? the Greeks in Italy? the Greeks in Crimaia? the Cretans? the Cypriots?  :Grin:  

 :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless:   :Useless: 

STOP BEING PATHETIC AND RIDICULOUS.  :Innocent:  

* SLAVS*
Poland
Czechia
Slovakia
Slovenia
Serbia
Croatia
Bosnia
Bulgaria (Severi )
*Bardarska Bodivina, modern Severnja*
etc

*GERMANS*
Deutsch
Dutsch
Austrians
Flanders
Prussians
etc

*GREEKS modern*
Cretans
*Makedonians*
Cyrpiots
Epirotans
peloponese
Roumeliotes
Aegean Central
Aeagean S East
Ionian islands
Crimaia
Pontic Greeks
Kappadokian
Minor Asians (Smyrne Kula Magnissa)
Italo-Greeks
Austrian Greeks
Con/polites
Greco-Thracians.


Just Accept it

*Strabo writes* 
*Hellas stops at Thessaly at Pineos river*
excluding Epirus and Makedonia
but he also writes,
*primitive Greece is Epirus and 
Makedonia is Greece.

Demosthenes* the biggest enemy of Philipp says
*For HE (philipp) is not a Greek
but he is not even a Barbarian
he is just a Makedonian scum

SO Ragna what are you?*
SERBS?
BULGARIANS?
BOSNIANS?
CROATS?
*or Suddenly you deny your Slavic language?
and decide that you are not Slavs?

I Wonder What DEMOSTHENES WOULD SAY ABOUT YOU GUYS?

BTW

DUSAN OF SERBIA King of Serbians

*


*CIMEON OF BULGARIA Tsar of Bulgarians*


*ALEXANDROS OF MAKEDONIA King OF GREEKS (not Slavs*  :Grin: *)

*

----------


## Yetos

> According to the Middle Persian sources, Alexander was an Egyptian.


Yauna Takabara

----------


## Aspar

> Makedonia started as a separate ethnic group and small kingdom north of Thessaly *and dare I say a cultural extension of people of Epirotic and South Illyrian stock. 
> *
> Eventually it grew slightly bigger into becoming the region of Makedonia located in modern Greece, and eventually an even bigger geographical designation during the Roman Empire. 
> 
> So when part of your Slavic ancestors came they found in Makedonia (geographically) the ancestors of Vlachs, Albanians, and Greeks, so them taking the name Macedonian means nothing since your compatriot here is talking about the Makedonians during the reign of Philip. Therefore, we need to discuss about the Makedonian ancestry in a stricter sense than the Medieval geographical term. 
> 
> I'm aware that some of your compatriots were kicked out from Greece and settled in modern North Macedonia, but we're talking about a country where officially 1/4 of the population is Albanian, a large chunk of ex-Albanian orthodox people that are forced to accept the Macedonian identity while striving for equality, an unknown number of Vlachs which is the ethnic group absorbed the most by others (Albanians being second), and the vast majority of fake Turks (being mostly Albanian and Vlachs) which constituted 15-20% of the population until half a century ago.


Any sources for the bolded part?

Because from what I have read from ancient writers, the ancient Macedonians were described as descendants of Brygians, Bryges(Thracians) as per Herodotus...

When my *Slavic* ancestors came, they found my *Macedonian or Paeonian* ancestors and I don't understand the need to underline my own Slavic ancestors...

As I said earlier, such nebulous as saying my *Slavic* ancestors came and met *your(Albanian, Vlach, Greek)* ancestors is a pure idiocy...

Mine own ancestors are from diverse group of people as pretending that all my ancestors come from one ancient or early medieval group of people is equal to lunacy, but I understand your position perfectly...

Now, for historical sake, the first mentioning of Albanians and Vlachs dates much later than the first mentioning of the Slavs in the Balkans...

And they are mentioned in Arbanon(modern Albania) and Thessaly and Epirus(in the case of the Vlachs), so I am not sure what are you trying to apply here but if I guess correctly what it is, than you are trying to suggest who was the first one as it happens in the Balkans more often...

Now, as is the case with the egg and the chicken, you are logic as you've been the *First* in Macedonia and *We* are invaders that came later is doomed because there is always someone else who lived there before, and we can go all the way down to the Neolithic farmers or Mesolithic HG but I understand your position again.

You try to underline my own *Slavics* ancestors while no mentioning of my own Macedonian ancestors which by your logic, can only be ancestors of Vlachs, Albanians and Greeks.

My *Slavic* ancestors taking the name means nothing for you but means a lot to us, because there is a clear continuation of the word Macedonia, because they lived and mixed with people already present in Macedonia, be it Romans, Greeks or simply Macedonians of Thracian, Illyrian affiliation, something that is nightmare for some people in the Balkans...

Now, once again the account of Kanchov in full: 

"The local Bulgarians and Kucovlachs who live in the area of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations also call them so. Turks and Arnauts from Macedonia do not call themselves Macedonians, but when asked where they are from, they respond: from Macedonia. Arnauts from the north and north west limits of the area, who also call their country Arnautluk, and Greeks who live in the southern areas, do not call themselves Macedonians, hence the borders in these areas according to the peoples’ perception are not clearly defined."

----------


## Yetos

> When my *Slavic* ancestors came, they found my *Macedonian or Paeonian* ancestors 
> 
> ...
> 
> Now, as is the case with the egg and the chicken, you are logic as you've been the *First* in Macedonia and *We* are invaders that came later is doomed because there is always someone else who lived there before, and we can go all the way down to the Neolithic farmers or Mesolithic HG but I understand your position again.
> 
> You try to underline my own *Slavics* ancestors while no mentioning of my own Macedonian ancestors which by your logic, can only be ancestors of Vlachs, Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> My *Slavic* ancestors taking the name means nothing for you but means a lot to us, because there is a clear continuation of the word Macedonia, because they lived and mixed with people already present in Macedonia, be it Romans, Greeks or simply Macedonians of Thracian, Illyrian affiliation, something that is nightmare for some people in the Balkans...
> ...


I still prefer it as Menelaos Lountemis explains it,

The Krusevo Vlachs Did not want Bulgarians, cause they took their soldiers to Bulgarian Army
They did not want the Serbs cause they treat them as Bulgarians
in the begin they like us the Greeks, due to Patrik (Patriarch) and away from Exarchate
but their local cultural was closer to local S Slavic population, and away from other Greek cultures that came to makedonian struggle,
their billingual was Aromanian and Slavic,
so at the End they decide to reject the Greeks also, just the era that WW1 was expected and balkans wars were about to start
and They made the Iliden and *Krusevo demokracy (rebublic)*

but they should found a name and an origin,
so they declare them shelves as Makedonian Orthodox, (Notice this, Not Greeks, not Slavs, not Exarchate, not Serbian patriarch, but Con/polis Patriarch)

that idea in the begin was rejected by all by Bulgarians since they believed them as Bulgarians 
by Serbs, since Skopjie and Ohrid were somehow important to their history, and their connection with the Thessaloniki port,
by Greeks, cause Historically has no meaning, 

the existance of that state that is called offcially Fyrom or today Severnja Makedonia was never a problem for Makedonians (Greeks), 
as long this state has no attacking policy, it was just a state or province of Serbia, or could be Bulgaria,
and most Greeks that lived there abandon it, without a treaty, as happened with Bulgaria,

Now At WW2 that idea of Krusevo Vlachs, seems a good tool to communists, and Dimitrov of 3rd international with Tito signed the Blent treaty,
claiming lands of Greece, and providing ancient Makedonians as Slavs, non Greeks etc,
that had already started at a communist congress at Belgrade,

*the endoctrination for 2 generation make the problem existance,*
the Communism international in order to unify the 2 S Slavic countries of Bulgaria and Serbia and provide peace,
hailed the idea, and make the bad guy the 'Capitalistic' Greece who resist the 5 years civil war among 'capitalists and communists'

so today everybody in Skopjie believes he is true Makedonian with ancient roots from Alexander himshelf,
and everybody in Thessaloniki hates the comittages that forced him to be a communist or Slav,

the denial of exchange population among Serbia and Greece make the problem bigger.
Instead the Politi-Kalfov treaty, and Venizelos-Attaturk solve the problem,

*BTW,*
As I notice, you consider your shelf a pre-Slavic Makedonian,
So the question to you I guess now its this,
a) you believe you were a Makedonian who got Slavizized?
b) you believe you were a Makedonian who got Hellenized and then Slavizised?
c) you believe you were a Thracian or Illyrian or a Brygian who got Makedonised and then Slavizised?
d)you believe you were A Thracian or Illyrian or Brygian who got Makedonised who got Hellenized, who got Romanised, and finally Slavisized?

----------


## Aspar

I am not willing replying to everything you wrote because some of it is a pure propaganda and non important things which have nothing to do with what i wrote previously.




> the existance of that state that is called offcially Fyrom or today Severnja Makedonia was never a problem for Makedonians (Greeks), 
> as long this state has no attacking policy, it was just a state or province of Serbia


Well, this is your problem first of all, not ours...

Our country became a threat to you once it declared independence, but as long as it has been under Serb jurisdiction, than it was alright to you...

But NOT to us!

We don't want to be under Serb jurisdiction, nor we would want to be Serbs because we never were...

We never called our land Vardarska or other dumb Serbian names after they occupied our land but ONLY Macedonia!
And I had demonstrated this with the account of Kanchov!

So, it has nothing to do with the local Vlachs as well, because those of local Macedonian Slavic dialect or Bulgarian mother tongue as you call it, also call themselves Macedonians, and this was before any Krusevo uprisings!

And unlike you, the Serbs were unable to assimilate the people, so NOW you got a problem, as there were Macedonians on the other side of the border as well...




> Now At WW2 that idea of Krusevo Vlachs, seems a good tool to communists, and Dimitrov of 3rd international with Tito signed the Blent treaty,
> claiming lands of Greece, and providing ancient Makedonians as Slavs, non Greeks etc,
> that had already started at a communist congress at Belgrade,
> 
> *the endoctrination for 2 generation make the problem existance,*
> the Communism international in order to unify the 2 S Slavic countries of Bulgaria and Serbia and provide peace,
> hailed the idea, and make the bad guy the 'Capitalistic' Greece who resist the 5 years civil war among 'capitalists and communists'
> 
> so today everybody in Skopjie believes he is true Makedonian with ancient roots from Alexander himshelf,
> ...


The brainwashing done by the communists was not good, but the Macedonians never were really communists, they just accepted the offer of those who claimed that they will help them achieving their goals, to unite our lands into one country, a Macedonian country which sadly cost us a lot!

You do ask a lot of questions tho...

I consider myself Macedonian as mine ancestors did, a Macedonian who speaks the local Macedonian Slavic dialect...

----------


## Yetos

@ Aspar, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia

on the other hands, the last 20 years in Greece, the above attacking policy, made a wave to Greece simillar which wants to attack Skopjie,
the 'ten minutes till Skopjie' as known is 'slag'

Prespes treaty winner is Severnja, they gained for first time nativity, in areas, that that not even Romans consider Makedonia,
that is why Greeks are against, 
soon we will see both strange situations. especially in industrial products, with name origin.

Anyway,
I keep your last,




> I consider myself Macedonian as mine ancestors did, a Macedonian who speaks the local Macedonian Slavic dialect...




it is a start, not good, but a start to both realize our modern identities, 
As for mine,
Today I say, that possibly originated from Sesklo Neolithic, but the last 150 years as far as I found, I am connected with a mountain in the core of Makedonia, originated from a family which participated in many revolts and struggles in Makedonia, Epirus, even reached Austro-Hungaria.
mentioned even by Kasomoulis the historian of Greek revolt, 


BTW
to a propagandist I may repeat with propaganda,
to someone who wants to discuss, I rather discuss,

the above with Ilidan revolt, is written in the books of someone who was present there, and lived all sides, in the years of dispute,
it is not mine, and as far as I know, it corresponds enough the 'weather' of the era.

Yet my only connection is a grand grand .. mother from somewhere there, West of Monasterion, an Aromanian at around 1850,
You know the marriage/contracts, of gain passage, security, and low taxation, among Armatolikia.

----------


## Aspar

> @ Aspar, 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia
> 
> on the other hands, the last 20 years in Greece, the above attacking policy, made a wave to Greece simillar which wants to attack Skopjie,
> the 'ten minutes till Skopjie' as known is 'slag'
> 
> Prespes treaty winner is Severnja, they gained for first time nativity, in areas, that that not even Romans consider Makedonia,
> that is why Greeks are against, 
> ...




This is Roman Macedonia 400 AD and by the looks of the map, more than a half of today's North Macedonia belongs to it, mostly in Macedonia Salutaris but small parts of the south-east of the country Doiran-Gevgeli and Heraclea(Bitola/Monastir) in Macedonia I Prima!

You also have to keep in mind that the promoter of separate Macedonian consciousness Krste Misirkov and Goce Delcev who was the promoter of the idea of autonomous Macedonia and "Macedonia for the Macedonians" actually come from the part of Macedonia that is in Greece today, formerly Salonika vilayet, as many other Macedonians who left and today live scattered in different places.

We call them "Egejci" and I am part "Egeec" as well and as I said, they were the main promoters of the idea of Macedonianizm so saying things like "they gained for first time nativity, in areas, that that not even Romans consider Makedonia" doesn't make much sense considering than the most hard core Macedonians actually come from the part which now belongs to Greece!




> it is a start, not good, but a start to both realize our modern identities, 
> As for mine,
> Today I say, that possibly originated from Sesklo Neolithic, but the last 150 years as far as I found, I am connected with a mountain in the core of Makedonia, originated from a family which participated in many revolts and struggles in Makedonia, Epirus, even reached Austro-Hungaria.
> mentioned even by Kasomoulis the historian of Greek revolt, 
> 
> 
> BTW
> to a propagandist I may repeat with propaganda,
> to someone who wants to discuss, I rather discuss,
> ...




That's alright...

My own ancestors come from a very small region around Gevgeli, Doiran, Gumendza, Kukus and from the mountains near Gumendza and Gevgeli which were known as Karadjova or Vlacho-Meglen!
Also one great grandparent comes from a village that doesn't exist today but was located on the Greek - Turkish border but unfortunately I don't know much about the village!

As far as I know, most of them considered themselves Macedonians, some were followers of the Bulgarian Exarchate, others of the Greek Patriachate!

One great great grandparent was a komitadji and probably a follower of the Bulgarian idea as he received medals from the Bulgarian state but most of the others were not!

I also have distant relatives in Greece with who we lost contact since long time ago and who most probably consider themselves Greeks today!

----------


## Nik

> Any sources for the bolded part?
> 
> Because from what I have read from ancient writers, the ancient Macedonians were described as descendants of Brygians, Bryges(Thracians) as per Herodotus...


Do some more reading and research. Illyrians, Epirots, Makedonians, Aetolians, Akarnanians, Paoenians, Brygians, Maedi, and other nearby Thracians had almost identical material culture we clearly see in them distinct warlike tribes of mostly mountaineers/shepherds. The more you went South, the shorter, darker, and softer the people got as with the case of the civilized Hellenes. It's enough to see the faces of Alexander's companions to understand what I'm talking about. 




> When my *Slavic* ancestors came, they found my *Macedonian or Paeonian* ancestors and I don't understand the need to underline my own Slavic ancestors...
> 
> As I said earlier, such nebulous as saying my *Slavic* ancestors came and met *your(Albanian, Vlach, Greek)* ancestors is a pure idiocy...
> 
> Mine own ancestors are from diverse group of people as pretending that all my ancestors come from one ancient or early medieval group of people is equal to lunacy, but I understand your position perfectly...


I was actually being nice there, recognizing and differentiating between your several ancestors so instead of saying YOU SLAVS I specifically referred to your Slavic ancestors (i.e. not your Paleo-Balkan ones). 




> Now, for historical sake, the first mentioning of Albanians and Vlachs dates much later than the first mentioning of the Slavs in the Balkans...
> 
> And they are mentioned in Arbanon(modern Albania) and Thessaly and Epirus(in the case of the Vlachs), so I am not sure what are you trying to apply here but if I guess correctly what it is, than you are trying to suggest who was the first one as it happens in the Balkans more often...
> 
> Now, as is the case with the egg and the chicken, you are logic as you've been the *First* in Macedonia and *We* are invaders that came later is doomed because there is always someone else who lived there before, and we can go all the way down to the Neolithic farmers or Mesolithic HG but I understand your position again.


Don't worry about the origin and mentioning of Albanians bro (half bro), we've got it easy nowadays and it's not like before where we had to fight in order to be recognized as local Balkan people and obviously not from Caucasus. Our ydna, mtdna, and autosomal Dna speaks for itself. 

But I understand where you're coming from, you're paranoid on encountering another Albanian that will tell you we were here first. That's far from what I was trying to say. I mean we all know Albanians were there first, its not for discussion. 





> You try to underline my own *Slavics* ancestors while no mentioning of my own Macedonian ancestors which by your logic, can only be ancestors of Vlachs, Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> My *Slavic* ancestors taking the name means nothing for you but means a lot to us, because there is a clear continuation of the word Macedonia, because they lived and mixed with people already present in Macedonia, be it Romans, Greeks or simply Macedonians of Thracian, Illyrian affiliation, something that is nightmare for some people in the Balkans...


Again, this is paranoia from your side. I purposely called you half bro because that's what I really feel. If you're from West Macedonia you might be even a '90% bro' to me. 

I clearly stated in my previous post that when speaking of the real ancient Makedonians of the time of Philip, you modern Northern Macedonians are mostly a Paeonian-Slav mix, but of course you also have some Makedonian, Dardanian, Thracian, Illyrian, Brygian, etc. 

And no, don't worry, ancient Makedonians were not Albanian, but they were still the closest nation to them, while later getting closer to lets say a Hellenic nearby tribe like the Thessalians after the heavy Hellenization of the local Makedonians, Orestians, Epirotes, Illyrians, Pierians, Thracians, etc. I practically mentioned all the tribes that mixed and contributed to what would be called Makedonians later on, mostly a bunch of shepherds brought down to the fields and trained in the phalanx formation and settled in the major towns which were slowly flourishing.

----------


## Aspar

> Do some more reading and research. Illyrians, Epirots, Makedonians, Aetolians, Akarnanians, Paoenians, Brygians, Maedi, and other nearby Thracians had almost identical material culture we clearly see in them distinct warlike tribes of mostly mountaineers/shepherds. The more you went South, the shorter, darker, and softer the people got as with the case of the civilized Hellenes. It's enough to see the faces of Alexander's companions to understand what I'm talking about. 
> 
> 
> I was actually being nice there, recognizing and differentiating between your several ancestors so instead of saying YOU SLAVS I specifically referred to your Slavic ancestors (i.e. not your Paleo-Balkan ones). 
> 
> 
> Don't worry about the origin and mentioning of Albanians bro (half bro), we've got it easy nowadays and it's not like before where we had to fight in order to be recognized as local Balkan people and obviously not from Caucasus. Our ydna, mtdna, and autosomal Dna speaks for itself. 
> 
> But I understand where you're coming from, you're paranoid on encountering another Albanian that will tell you we were here first. That's far from what I was trying to say. I mean we all know Albanians were there first, its not for discussion. 
> ...


I have no problem calling an Albanian bro trust me and I mean it...

I have met many Albanians and most of them are very loyal and trustworthy and can easily make a business with them without having fear of being screwed...

And I was merely discussing, didn't mean nothing wrong, so don't take it personally as we all have different writing styles and sometimes it may looks like I am a bit aggressive but in person you will find me very friendly trust me so I mean nothing wrong...

The thing is, there is no way in the Balkan that we can find that we have more things that connect us but we always look for the things that separate us.

And this might sound naive because a Greek would never say what you and me said now nor he will call me a bro, so in that respect I identify with the Albanians much more than I do with Greeks because that good and naive nature, loyal and trustworthy heart I see in the Albanians more often which I see in me!

A Greek never!

Not to mention that many Kosovar Albanians and proper Albanians in UK where I am living, came asking me thinking I am an Albanian, plus from many classification threads people tend to think I am an Albanian as well, and I am not even from the Western part of the country!

So there is clearly great overlap between Macedonians and Albanians...

----------


## Cyrus

> Yauna Takabara


It is important to know where was Macedonia, as you read here: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=macedonia the name of Macedonia is from ancient Greek _makros_ "long, large": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B...#Ancient_Greek from Proto-Indo-European *mh₂ḱros, cognate with Indo-Iranian _masru_ "Egypt" (Egyptian Arabic _masr_, Mycenaean Greek _misarajo_).

----------


## Aspar

> It is important to know where was Macedonia, as you read here: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=macedonia the name of Macedonia is from ancient Greek _makros_ "long, large": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B...#Ancient_Greek from Proto-Indo-European *mh₂ḱros, cognate with Indo-Iranian _masru_ "Egypt" (Egyptian Arabic _masr_, Mycenaean Greek _misarajo_).


There is no consensus among the historians what does the name Makedon mean although many tend to connect everything to Greek...
Makedon may very well come and be distorted version of the word Mygdon, a tribe of the Bryges which lived in Makedonia and has nothing to with the Greeks.

----------


## Leka

Makedon actually meant Highlander in Ancient Greek. Equivalent to the Albanian term ‘Malesor’.

----------


## LABERIA

> There is no consensus among the historians what does the name Makedon mean although many tend to connect everything to Greek...
> Makedon may very well come and be distorted version of the word Mygdon, a tribe of the Bryges which lived in Makedonia and has nothing to with the Greeks.


If i am not wrong according to Homer Macedonian means tall or something like this.

----------


## Cyrus

> There is no consensus among the historians what does the name Makedon mean although many tend to connect everything to Greek...
> Makedon may very well come and be distorted version of the word Mygdon, a tribe of the Bryges which lived in Makedonia and has nothing to with the Greeks.


In ancient Persian and early Islamic sources, Macedonia (Maqaduniya) is just the name of Egypt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maqaduniya (Paul Casanova connects Maqaduniya to one of the Ancient Egyptian names of Memphis – Makha-to-ui, "the balance of two lands".) Anyway as I said Persian sources say that Alexander was Egyptian, not even Macedonian.

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## Yetos

> It is important to know where was Macedonia, as you read here: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=macedonia the name of Macedonia is from ancient Greek _makros_ "long, large": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B...#Ancient_Greek from Proto-Indo-European *mh₂ḱros, cognate with Indo-Iranian _masru_ "Egypt" (Egyptian Arabic _masr_, Mycenaean Greek _misarajo_).


there can be 2 official well stated terminations, 
and a third possible via LPIE

Α) tall nation, big body
the primary tested one and certified means Tall,-big people
that is also the explanation of Magnetas the brother of Makedonas
Magnetas live south of Makedonas in East parts of Thessaly,
compare Greek Megas-megalos means both Great-Big 
the edos-ednos -edonoi etc means cousins-nation etc, in attic and koine typical of Makedonian d-θ is ethnos εθνος
so the possibility Mak-edon =tall nation 

B) long relatives, split clan
the terminology of -ednos can also mean long cousin or split cousin from hive
in that case all three Makednos Magnetas Mygdon means split-clan
infact myg-don is the remnants of Brygians,
Brygians older known homeland was today Dyrrachium,
by the coming of illyrians-proprie, Brygian moved east and, south north of primary Makedonia, south of Paeonians, but from their cities, we see their cities and them living among other clans, like nextby village - but other people
Then moved to Phrygia, the ones who left were called Mygdonεs, Μυγδονες
Μυγ from Αμυς-αμυχη means split from scratch, 

C) the Armenian Hypothesis in Thracian (not certified)
that is not attested, but it is possible,
notice the Scotish clans have a Mc a Mac before their clan names,
in Thracian vocabulary Muca ment the male youth, 'the sons' (see Duridanov)
the word exist also in Armenian,
so it is possible that Myssians, Myceneans, Makedonians, Mygdonians etc and other in Balkans and Asia minor mean (the sons of)
it is a possible, but can not explain the secondary synthetic, as also
I heard the above as alternative theory, but rejected from the same who proposed it.
cause it should have a Mus if was Armeno-Tracian, and not -k or -g

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## Cyrus

Culturally ancient Macedonians were certainly a Hellenic people, an ancient Macedonian temple has been found in Masjid Soleyman in the southwest of Iran:

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## Fatherland

> Makedon actually meant Highlander in Ancient Greek. Equivalent to the Albanian term ‘Malesor’.


There is complete truth in your post.

Not sure why someone thumbed it down.

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## torzio

> I clearly stated in my previous post that when speaking of the real ancient Makedonians of the time of Philip, you modern Northern Macedonians are mostly a Paeonian-Slav mix, but of course you also have some Makedonian, Dardanian, Thracian, Illyrian, Brygian, etc.


There was no slavs there at the time of Philip

northern macedonians would be a Paeonian-Macedon mix

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## torzio

> So there is clearly great overlap between Macedonians and Albanians...


Maybe this overlap started here

*Macedonian–Carthaginian Treaty* was an anti-Roman treaty between Philip V of Macedon and Hannibal, leader of the Carthaginians, which was drawn up after the Battle of Cannae when Hannibal seemed poised to conquer Rome. Philip V, who feared Roman expansion, wanted to ride on the coat tails of the victor in the Second Punic War (218–201 BC). The discovery of this treaty inevitably led to the outbreak of the First Macedonian War (214–205 BC) between Rome and its Greek allies against Macedonia

Rome had to stop macedonian supplies reaching Hannibal in Itlay from Macedonia's Albanian ports .................see map in link below


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Macedonian_War

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## Nik

> There was no slavs there at the time of Philip
> 
> northern macedonians would be a Paeonian-Macedon mix


Really? Mind blown. :O

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## RagnarofMacedon

> Really? Mind blown. :O



Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...

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## Dianatomia

> Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
> And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...


When talking about Ancient Macedonia, we talk about the land inhabited by the original tribe which inhabited a small piece of land in Northern Greece near the Aegean. We are not talking about their conquests and/or expansions. In reality, North Macedonia was almost in its entirety not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians, nor was it part of the original Macedonia. It was mostly Paeonian and Dardanian inhabited land. There were also Epirot Greeks in what is now Pelagonia (North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia). But you can rest assured, because Alexanders mother hailed from that tribe.

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## torzio

> Why Peonian-Macedon mix? Macedonian territory was like next to Nish (nowdays Serbia),anyways Peonians were Thraco-Illyrian,they were apsorbed in Macedonian Kingdom like many other illyrians and thracians, there were not pure nations, Macedonians had many thraco-macedonians, illyro-macedonians, thraco-illyrians, greco-macedonians, same with Greeks they were mix of many like Assyrians,Jews,Egyptians,Persians,Thracians,Macedo nians,Illyrians with Greeks...
> And many of barbarians (thracians,illyrians,macedonians) accepted Hellenism because in that time was like Religion , with already famous gods,laws and language with perspective, coine language in that time(greek nowdays) famous like english nowdays, wind in the back for barbarian traders...So like nowdays Orthodox Christianity , they r not same nation but workship same god and customs have same traditions...


Paeonians are a mix of macedonians and dardanians there is no thracian or illyrian on there mix

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## bigsnake49

> When talking about Ancient Macedonia, we talk about the land inhabited by the original tribe which inhabited a small piece of land in Northern Greece near the Aegean. We are not talking about their conquests and/or expansions. In reality, North Macedonia was almost in its entirety not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians, nor was it part of the original Macedonia. It was mostly Paeonian and Dardanian inhabited land. There were also Epirot Greeks in what is now Pelagonia (North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia). But you can rest assured, because Alexanders mother hailed from that tribe.


That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.

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## Aspar

> That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.


Yeah, many fanatics don't understand, however the term Macedonia was first applied in the 19th century by the Greek priests and clerics after the abolishment of the Ohrid archbishopric in order to attract and hellenize the Bulgarian population in Macedonia(the historical one of course). Prior to that of course every Slavic speaking men in Macedonia was calling his language Bulgarian and his people Bulgarians.
Let's not forget how Germanos Karavangelis attracted Kote or Kottas to the Greek cause. Basically telling him how the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia aren't Bulgarians but Bulgarised Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.
Basically in those times there were no borders like today and people living in Macedonia and beyond, in what is today Northern Macedonia were basically the same people, speaking the same language and intermarrying.
After the Greeks achieved the goal and got Macedonia from the Ottomans, there was no more need to spread propaganda in order to attract local Bulgarians.
However, the idea itself spread across the border and the rest is a history. So the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves when the people across the border appropriate the Ancient Macedonians.

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## Dianatomia

> Yeah, many fanatics don't understand, however the term Macedonia was first applied in the 19th century by the Greek priests and clerics after the abolishment of the Ohrid archbishopric in order to attract and hellenize the Bulgarian population in Macedonia(the historical one of course). Prior to that of course every Slavic speaking men in Macedonia was calling his language Bulgarian and his people Bulgarians.
> Let's not forget how Germanos Karavangelis attracted Kote or Kottas to the Greek cause. Basically telling him how the Slavic speaking people in Macedonia aren't Bulgarians but Bulgarised Macedonians, descendants of Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians.
> Basically in those times there were no borders like today and people living in Macedonia and beyond, in what is today Northern Macedonia were basically the same people, speaking the same language and intermarrying.
> After the Greeks achieved the goal and got Macedonia from the Ottomans, there was no more need to spread propaganda in order to attract local Bulgarians.
> However, the idea itself spread across the border and the rest is a history. So the Greeks have no one to blame but themselves when the people across the border appropriate the Ancient Macedonians.


Greeks used and emphasized the term Macedonia to safeguard their Hellenic influence in the region. The Bulgarization of the area was the only serious threat from Greece's perspective at the time. In fact, I would argue that there was no other serious threat ever since. The Bulgarians had a solid narrative. There were Slavic speakers in the region, and the medieval Bulgarian empires were a fact in history. The Greeks would counter this narrative with emphasis of Byzantine and Ancient Greek history of the region. And hence the term Macedonian Slavs was born, with the help of the Greeks among others. 

The Yugoslavs brought this to another level a few decades later, arguing that Macedonian Slavs are not Bulgarians indeed, but they also have nothing to do with the Ancient Greeks. Because they are a totally unrelated people. This went against Athens bidding ofcourse. But compared to the Bulgarian threat, it was not a major setback. The historical claims and the connection of the Ancient Macedonians to the Macedonian Slavs were quite un-academic. And no one took these claims seriously. So Greece looked the other way. It was more of a nuisance rather than anything else. One could argue that it did the Macedonian Slavs more harm than it did the Greeks. Given the above, the Prespa agreement will do more good than harm for both nations.

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## Dianatomia

> That's what people don't understand. Ancient Macedonia was a very small area/kingdom/tribe who then expanded tremendously through conquest, alliances and marriages of convenience. It was surrounded by other much larger Illyrian and Thracian tribes. Current province of Greece, Macedonia is too big for what the land of Macedons originally included. So is Northern Macedonia. Only very small number of people around what is now Pella can call themselves descendants of Macedonians. The rest, Greek Macedonia and North Macedonia are just appropriating the name.


Well, it became Macedonia in due time. I wouldn't say anyone is appropriating the name. Especially the Greek region became Macedonia as early as under the reign of Philip. But the name stuck in the greater region for centuries after that and it changed its geographic connotation many times. This has been a natural process. We simply have to understand that Macedonia became a name which was exclusively geographic and not ethnic. The problem occurs when people within this region, at any given time, start to think that this region belongs to their ethnic cultural heritage. This is quite dubious and a-historical.

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## Pericles

You are all forgetting that the North was only Macedonia when the Romans had the area...it was a large geographic area that the Romans called Macedonia...it had nothing to do with the Real Macedonia in northern Greece. "North Macedonia" is literally the geographic area of Roman North Macedonia....again nothing to do with the real Macedonia.

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## Aspar

> You are all forgetting that the North was only Macedonia when the Romans had the area...it was a large geographic area that the Romans called Macedonia...it had nothing to do with the Real Macedonia in northern Greece. "North Macedonia" is literally the geographic area of Roman North Macedonia....again nothing to do with the real Macedonia.


Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.

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## Aspar

Although N.Macedonia is a small country, there are some big differences among the people who call themselves Macedonians nowadays, mainly differences in the language they speak. Modern Macedonian language is the standardized form which doesn't reflect big part of the current spoken dialects but only those of the Western-Central part of the country, the white part in the image:


The Macedonian dialects form a continuity with the Bulgarian dialects over the border and there is no sharp border between them as there is with the Serb dialects which of course are part of a different language. The only exception to this rule might be the Torlakian dialects of the north-east which show increased Serb influence in it's vocabulary and which are phenomenon of it's own, although clearly grammatically wise still closer to Bulgaro-Macedonian continuum and part of the Balkan Sprachbund which the Serb language is not part of.

Originally the Old Church Slavonic didn't have the features of the Balkan Sparchbund, among which the most important are: the loss of infinitive, the loss of case declension, and the use of enclitic definite articles. In this situation, the most similar to the Bulgaro-Macedonian language continuum is the Farsheroti Aromanian language spoken around the Ohrid-Prespa area which shares the most futures with Macedonian unlike other Aromanian dialects. This is very interesting because Ohrid-Prespa was the contact area between the two groups and here the famous literary school of Ohrid operated opened by St.Clement and St.Naum under the permission of Tsar Boris of Bulgaria. It was most likely here that the two groups intermingled between each other because modern Macedonian sounds as if an Aromanian person tries to speak Old Church Slavonic. And it's not only the grammar that has been effected but the lexicon as well as in many Bulgaro-Macedonian dialects there are plenty of words that have been transmitted both ways. I was happy to confirm even a genetic link of my own to this area and therefore I am quite sure that the intermingling of the languages was followed with genetic flows as well. As for why this conversion of Aromanian speakers to Bulgaro-Macedonian happened happened the most likely explanation is the Church as institution and the Old Church Slavonic as the religious language of diocese of Prespa under which the Aromanian speakers of that region belonged.

A small brief of the population history and migrations on the territory of North Macedonia from the late antiquity to modern days.

The pre-Slavic people did survive on the territory of modern N.Macedonia. The famous Macedonian-Croatian archaeologist Ivan Mikulcic is one of the best researchers of Ancient and Medieval Macedonia. In his book "Medieval towns and castles in Macedonia" Mikulcic writes that the civilized city life in N.Macedonia ends in the year 584/85 when a large raiding party of Avars and Slavs started systematically to pillage and destroy the Roman towns in N.Macedonia. Mikulcic writes that the Roman people found salvation either fleeing south towards Constantinople, Thessaloniki, the Aegean isles and Anatolia or fleeing to the *fortified places in the mountains*. In more than twenty fortified places up in the mountains are found traces of continuous life: coins from the end of the sixth and the first half of the seventh century AD as well as Roman fibulae.


One such fortified place is the Castle of Vinica where terracotta tiles are found in connection with early Christianity which are dated to the V-VII century.
This terracotta tiles are engraved with liturgical texts written in Latin. Such kind of terracotta tiles to date are found in Spain and North Africa only. These tiles are very important and from them we now know that there was a non-Greek people or Latin speakers inhabiting the region of Vinitza in N.Macedonia during the late antiquity and early Medieval period. This find by itself casts doubts about whether the Jirecek line should be taken literally and gives precious material about a non-Greek speaking population living south of the line because Vinitza is located to south of that hypothetical line and was located on the border between the provinces of Macedonia Secunda and Dacia Mediterranea.
The tiles are somewhat bizarre because they depict details from the early Christianity mixed with pagan figures. 
For example on one terracotta tile there is the Thracian horseman with his right hand raised depicted on it and a Latin inscription: 


> EMANUEL (QUOD EST INTERPRETATUM)
> NOBISCUM DEUS SALVU(M ME FAC ET SALVUS ER)O HR(ISTOF)ORO





The terracotta tile actually represents Christ Emanuel as the coming Christ from the book of the prophet Isaiah but depicts him as the Thracian horseman with his right hand raised which brings him closer to the 'Scythian' type of the Thracian horseman plus it depicts the solar symbols, the moon and the sun.


Then we have another terracotta tile showing Achilles with a Centaur and a crescent with a clear Latin inscription that writes Achilles:

The archaeologist Kosta Balabanov thinks that there was some cult of Achilles among the local Thraco-Roman people. We also have the Medieval accounts of some Byzantine authors and chroniclers who wrote in a time when the territory of N.Macedonia was part of the First Bulgarian Empire and later part of the Byzantine theme 'Bulgaria': 


> Achilles was described by Leo the Deacon (born ca. 950) not as Hellene, but as *Scythian*, while according to the Byzantine author John Malalas (c. 491–578), his army was made up of a tribe previously known as Myrmidons and "known now as *Bulgars*".[2][3] The 12th-century Byzantine poet John Tzetzes also identified the Myrmidons with the Bulgars, whom he also identified with the *Paeonians*, although the latter may be intended in a purely geographical sense.[4][5]


 The family of Tzar Samuel honored the cult of St.Achilles. St.Achilles was well respected and honored by Tzar Samuel and his family who even transferred his relics from Thessaly to Prespa.


These accounts of the Byzantine chroniclers and the cult of Achilles among the local Thraco-Roman people tells us that Achilles was well respected and honored as their own hero. In the Greek mythology Achilles's home was Phthia in Thessaly and Phthia was the home of the Myrmidones who as witnessed by the Byzantine accounts were considered of Thracian stock(_now called Bulgars_) because they were associated with the Bulgars who mixed with and gave the new name to the previous inhabitants of the area.


*Therefore we can be sure that the inhabitants we are dealing with in Medieval Vinitza were Romanized Thracian people.*


This mixing of Christian symbols with Pagan figures and symbols probably means that the preaching of the early Christianity in Macedonia was done with the help of the well known Pagan figures and symbols among the local people helping them to accept Christianity through these earlier Pagan symbols.


Other interesting terracotta is the one where are written the words 'Bolgar' and 'Sclav' and which depicts a fight between Bulgars and Sclavs:




According to this terracotta the local Latinophone Thraco-Roman population already knew about the Bolgars and the Sclavs which shouldn't be surprise since these people started raiding and settling in the Balkans since the 6th century AD. What's interesting here is that the terracotta depicts a fight between the Bolgars and the Sclavs. During the time the terracotta was made 7th century AD, the Bolgars of Kuber moved in the western part of N.Macedonia from Pannonia away from Avar rule as per historical accounts together with the Roman population captured by the Avars from earlier raids. Probably this terracotta depicts a conflict between the Bolgars of Kuber and some of the Slavic tribes present in the region of Macedonia to which led Kuber's intention to attack Thessaloniki and after the Byzantine found out probably hired some of the allied Sclavivnia to attack the Bulgars and to expel them. Such Sclavinia might be that of the Dragouvites who were earlier on hired by the Byzantines to help the Bulgars and provid them food as they were the closest neighbors to the Bulgars who settled in the Keramisian plain(Prilep).


What's interesting is that Mikulcic writes that no archaeological traces of early Slavs in eastern N.Macedonia where Vinica is located are discovered during that period unlike in Greece where many artifacts belonging to the early Slavs are found during the end of the sixth and throughout the seventh century AD. The first traces of Slavic presence on the territory of eastern N.Macedonia start to show up in the 9th century and that coincides with the Bulgar invasion of Macedonia. According to that we can conclude that most of the Slavic people on the territory of N.Macedonia came together with the Bulgar expansion in the 9th century probably as a part of a Bulgar-Slavic alliance. Although there might have been some earlier Slavic tribes already present in the western part of N.Macedonia namely the Berzitae. The region of Central-West N.Macedonia is considered as 'Брсјачки етнографски регион' and is assumed to be in correlation with Berzitia known from Medieval historical accounts, a region that was located in Thessaly and whose archont Akamir made a bunt with the local Hellens against the Byzantine empress Irina in 799 AD. We also hear about Berzitia when the Bulgar ruler Telerig decides to attack this Sclavinia and to transfer it's population in Bulgaria around 774 AD. The problem here is that Mikulcic don't find any Slavic artifacts in the western part of N.Macedonia either and this 'Berzitia' according to the historical accounts was located in Thessaly. As already mentioned, the first Slavic artifacts on the territory of modern N.Macedonia start showing up in the 9th century when the Bulgars conquered the area. Before that period the only artifacts found on the territory of modern N.Macedonia that do not belong to the local Thraco-Roman population are artifacts belonging to tribes such as the Kutrigurs(Bulgars) and are found in the close vicinity of the town Prilep(ancient city of Kerameiai was located in it's vicinity) in the Pelagonian plain. Mikulcic connects these artifacts to the Bulgars of Kuber and the Sermesians who settled in the Pelagonian plain or Keremisia(Campus Kerameensis) as was written in the historical records. Tzar Samuel after conquering Thessaly transferred it's population somewhere in utter Bulgaria according to historical records therefore the population of Berzetia in Thessaly might very well have been transferred in Western N.Macedonia during the reign of Samuel. Coupled that with the historical account that after the migration of the Kuber's Bulgars and Sermesians to North Macedonia and the order of the Byzantines to the Dragouvites who lived in today's Greek Macedonia as a closest Sclavinia to the Bulgars and the Sermesians to provide them with food, we have a clear proves that no Berzitae/Брсјаци lived on the territory of N.Macedonia during that time but the mountainous territory was manly left unsettled by Slavic tribes up to the 9th century and most probably was settled by Eastern Romance speakers leftovers such as those found in Vinitza. These Romance speakers might be the ancestors of later Vlachs recorded on the territory of N.Macedonia such as Dobromir Hrysos who ruled from the fortress of Prosek. That in the same area there were a lot of Romance speakers up to the 16th century we find Turkish accounts such as those of Hadzi Kalfa or Evliya Celebi who wrote that the whole area around Doiran was inhabited by Vlachs(see A.Vacalopoulos, History of Macedonia). These Romance speakers were undoubtedly assimilated into the Bulgarian people among which today's Macedonians of South-East Macedonia trace their ancestry from. Only very few Romance speaking villages up in the mountains preserved the original language and are knows as Meglen Vlachs.


Meanwhile Professor Mikulcic writes that there is not much attention given to the 9th century wave of Slavic migrants whose migration to Macedonia coincides with the Bulgar invasion of Macedonia during the reign of Presian/Boris. These Slavs that migrated during that period used the Central Balkan Morava-Vardar valley as their path. They also left many toponyms related to Morava and Bohemia which might ultimately mean that these Slavs came from those places. Such toponyms are Morava river in Serbia, Morava mountain west of Korca in Albania but also the area north of Kastoria which was known as Morava or the area north of Thessaloniki which was known as Boimia/Bohemia and there is a town even with the name Boemitza which name was changed in 1928 to Axioupoli. These Slavs used the opening provided with the destruction of the Avar Khaganate at the end of the 8th century to migrate into south-eastern direction. One characteristic for the Central Balkans is the increased ratio of haplogroup I-Y3120 against the R1a unlike the other regions in the Balkans such as in Bulgaria and Greece and thismight have connection with this later wave of Slavs that came in the Balkans during the 8th and the 9th century. The language of these later Slavs might very well be the language taken as a base by St.Cyril and St.Methodius who as we know spread the Old Church Slavonic that was spoken by the Slavs around Thessaloniki. If we know by historical accounts that the Byzantine Emperors before the 8th century largely submitted the Sclavines around Thessaloniki and destroyed them or transferred them in other parts of the Empire then it's not far fetched to think that the Old Church Slavonic was based on the dialect of these later migrating Slavs that came from Bohemia and Moravia.

In short, the building blocks of the modern Macedonian people are these Romance speakers that lived on the territory of N.Macedonia during the medieval period and the Slavs from the first wave such as V/Berzitae(V/Belegeziti) who might well be the same tribe which name transformed under the phonetic rule of the Slavic liquid metathesis and Slavs from later waves such as those who migrated in the 9th century.

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## Yetos

> Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.


It became Makedonia after Roman province,

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## Pericles

> Actually it became Macedonia with the conquest of the Philip north in the territory of the Paeonians. Since then the territory was effectively Macedonia and that's why when the Romans came they didn't even have doubts how to call the territory of current N.Macedonia. So it remained as such for centuries thereafter, with some minor distinctions such as Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. Of course, the original Macedonians lived to south of this territory however as I explained already it became effectively Macedonia during their time not during the Romans.


That is completely not correct. The Paeonian area was never named Macedonia under Philip. The Illyrians remained in control in Lychnidos and Paeonians remained where they were. Paeonia did not become Macedonia.

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## Aspar

> That is completely not correct. The Paeonian area was never named Macedonia under Philip. The Illyrians remained in control in Lychnidos and Paeonians remained where they were. Paeonia did not become Macedonia.


So why the Romans named the territory as 'Macedonia' in the first place?

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## Dushman

> So why the Romans named the territory as 'Macedonia' in the first place?


Does it really matter? They included a big part of modern Albania in the region of Macedonia too, as well as a very larg part of the Adriatic coast as Dalmatia. 

it doesn’t mean that the Paeonians were Macedonians, nor that the modern Macedonians share some ancestry with the true Ancient Macedonians.

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## Aspar

> Does it really matter? They included a big part of modern Albania in the region of Macedonia too, as well as a very larg part of the Adriatic coast as Dalmatia. 
> it doesn’t mean that the Paeonians were Macedonians, nor that the modern Macedonians share some ancestry with the true Ancient Macedonians.


My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement. 
All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country. 
I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.

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## Dushman

> My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement. 
> All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
> Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
> The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country. 
> I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.


In that case, yes, I agree with you. I misunderstood what is being discussed. 

In my opinion Macedonian is a regional name too, and you can be Albano-Macedonian, Bulgaro-Macedonian, Greek-Macedonian, Vlacho-Macedonian, Ponto-Macedonian, Serbo-Macedonian, Turko-Macedonian, gypsies, etc. 

Im not sure how the Slavic Macedonians should be called though, but then again if you like to be simply called Macedonian I for one have no problem nor interest in interfering with someone else’s self-identification. 

That area including part of Macedonia that belongs to Greece now had an extensive presence of Vlachs and later Bulgarians which in my opinion are for the most part assimilated Vlachs and Albanians. 

Logically it should be a second Romance speaking country in the Balkans but today’s reality is different as it’s mostly Slavic speaking, but you cannot be called Bulgaria and I suppose many don’t like to be called such anymore, so I guess Macedonian or North-Macedonian it is. Lol

----------


## Yetos

> My post has nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. That has been sorted out also on a state level with the new Prespa agreement. 
> All we discuss is the name. And the name Macedonia has been applied to the territory of North Macedonia since long time ago, and this territory has been known as Macedonia for the most of the history than say Paeonia.
> Yes, the Albanian territories were also part of the province of Macedonia during the Roman rule but they were also part of the province of Epirus which was administrative division inside the province of Macedonia, Epirus Vetus and Nova. While most of the territory of North Macedonia was part of Macedonia Salutaris division of the province of Macedonia.
> The ancient Macedonians were a Troyan horse and some dumb idiots in North Macedonia took the bait, making clowns of themselves and doing bad favour to the country. 
> I won't discuss whether we have or not ancient Macedonian genes, that's not even that important. What's important is that our identity is strictly regional and connected to the region of Macedonia. Yes, the Bulgarian origin is reality and many of North Macedonia's past revolutionaries and educated people declared themselves ethnic Bulgarians, but also many didn't have Bulgarian ethnic consciousness although speaking Bulgarian related language. These people were mostly divided, with some being pro-Greek, studying in Greek schools, attending Greek churches and even leading Greek guerilla squads against Bulgarian guerilla. So, the ethnic division has been blurry since long time ago and it's not something recent although some uneducated people trying to present it as a recent phenomenon, from the time of Tito.



Be Honest to your shelf,
The term Makedonia once was given to Phillipoupolis also, even in Serbia once

the term Makedonia by S Slavs is used after Yugoslav era.

the creation of S Slavic population as Makedonia started after St Stefan treaty, and the term suggested by Russian ambassadeur of Con/polis, and then by G Dimitrof and 3rd Communis International
The modern Ethnicity that occured at Krussevo and Skopjia is clear after St Stefan treaty.
The Bulgarians went and tell them 'You are Bulgarians and Exarchate, you must obey and serve us
then Serbs went there and told them you are Bulgarians 
then Greeks went and were welcomed at the Begin due to Patrik. but at the end did not manage to unite them
then Romanians went and tell Vlachs you are Romanians and build Romanian schools
and Turks as always happy for division.

and at Krussevo Vlachs started the idea, we are Orthodox and with Patrik, but not Greeks
at stromnitsa we are Exarchate and Bulgarians
at Kumanovo we are with Serbian patriarch etc etc 
at Monastetion we are Greeks
and the Russian ambassadeur at Con/polis suggested the term 'Makedonian -Orthodox'

and even very late the area was Bardarska Bodovina. 
and after suggestion of Communists and G Dimitrof they organise them to an ethnicity,
proposing them the lands of Yugoslavia, Greece, and Bulgaria.

and that Communist manifesto made this modern ethnicity, to claim maximalistic dreams, and act alazonic.

be honest to your shelves. 
the today N Makedonia, as most Balkan countries, is mosaic of Nationalities, 
and fits all, Serbs, Bulgarians,Greeks, Albanians, Turks, USA, Russia.
the independent existance of this country, is based on the the keep in balance Balkans.
and slowly become a nationality the last century, to avoid inner struggle and possible civil disorder.

It is a modern unification movement, that creates a new nationality.

----------


## drsibel

I think the ancient Macedonians assimilated after the Slavic migrations. I believe that there were ancient Macedonians among the people who said they were Macedonians.

----------


## Boreas

> I think the ancient Macedonians assimilated after the Slavic migrations. I believe that there were ancient Macedonians among the people who said they were Macedonians.


In my opinion, even People of Greece assimilted with Indo-Europeans. They have very high haplogroup E and ıf the origion of Europeans is pontic steppes, it is not common

Same as Bulgarian and Macedonia who have pre European haplogroup I

----------


## Pericles

If they were Macedonian, they were Greek! This has been proven time and again.

----------


## Boreas

> If they were Macedonian, they were Greek! This has been proven time and again.


No it is not. I guess it is about your defination of Greeks. I am also don't call the Cypriots as Greek, I don't care that is their language or religion or what is their origin mtyh. 

This is a genetic distance issue for me. 

Attachment 12366

Also Sardinians are not Italian because of genetic distance. See how Iranian and Georgian or Turkish and Kurdish areas are intertwined. 

Do you call the Georgian, North Iranian? Do you call the Kurds, Eastern Turks? I don't think so.

Why do you think a population like Greeks size has this much large area in the figure??? Because they are not pure, they are mixing with other races, nations since their colony age.

----------


## Yetos

> No it is not. I guess it is about your defination of Greeks. I am also don't call the Cypriots as Greek, I don't care that is their language or religion or what is their origin mtyh. 
> 
> This is a genetic distance issue for me. 
> 
> Attachment 12366
> 
> Also Sardinians are not Italian because of genetic distance. See how Iranian and Georgian or Turkish and Kurdish areas are intertwined. 
> 
> Do you call the Georgian, North Iranian? Do you call the Kurds, Eastern Turks? I don't think so.
> ...



offcourse, that is why every body, in Central and East Meditterrean is proud, or claims or wants to have Greek ancestry,  :Grin: 

as you see there in this forum, there are people who think even that they are more Greeks than Greeks

----------


## Boreas

> offcourse, that is why every body, in Central and East Meditterrean is proud, or claims or wants to have Greek ancestry, 
> 
> as you see there in this forum, there are people who think even that they are more Greeks than Greeks


Yes, I totally agree. Being a Greek as much higher market value then, being an Albanian, Bulgarian or Turk in the Western World

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> offcourse, that is why every body, in Central and East Meditterrean is proud, or claims or wants to have Greek ancestry, 
> 
> as you see there in this forum, there are people who think even that they are more Greeks than Greeks


I can't speak for other countries but albanians only have pride in being albanian

----------


## Boreas

> I can't speak for other countries but albanians only have pride in being albanian


Of course most of people are happy what they are. 

My point was other nations opinion on you. Many of people doesn't know where is Albania. But if you were Greek, most of people would have position opinion on you

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Of course most of people are happy what they are. 
> My point was other nations opinion on you. Many of people doesn't know where is Albania. But if you were Greek, most of people would have position opinion on you


That is true, Greek mythology is well known around the world. They even make video games based on it

Israel is famous for similar reason, mostly Jesus

----------


## Dibran

> Of course most of people are happy what they are. 
> 
> My point was other nations opinion on you. Many of people doesn't know where is Albania. But if you were Greek, most of people would have position opinion on you


We really don't care what other nations opinions are. Opinion are like...well you know. Everyone has one.

Yetos just likes to assume everyone want's to be Greek. First time I'm hearing this. That would be the last identity I would petition for.

----------


## Dibran

> In my opinion, even People of Greece assimilted with Indo-Europeans. They have very high haplogroup E and ıf the origion of Europeans is pontic steppes, it is not common
> 
> Same as Bulgarian and Macedonia who have pre European haplogroup I


E-V13 has already been found in numerous Bronze Age elite at this point. It also seems to appear after the Iron Age in Greece not before. It is without a doubt associated with Indo-European migrations. Now, its parent branch may perhaps tell a different story.

----------


## Yetos

nothing just nothing

----------


## Yetos

> We are not talking about E, but E-V13. We already have plenty of Indo-European samples that are E-V13. Additionally, E-V13's parent clade E-L618 was also already found in the West Balkans at the close of the Neolithic. Also, E* has a distance of 50 thousand + or so years from E-V13. So, I am not sure what you're trying to imply by your comment.
> 
> The only people who claim E-V13 is North African are either people who know very little about Y-DNA evolution or have an agenda. 
> 
> Using your logic, R1a and R1b are just Siberians because they come from R1 Mal'ta boy. It is important to understand the difference between subclades and parent clades. E-V13's connection to North Africa is ancient, and before any culture of relevance.


correct, minus is not IE marker, but rather Balkan primary, Anatolian/ Near East secondary.
It is Neolithic, Not IE.

----------


## Yetos

> _""The only people who claim E-V13 is North African are either people who know very little about Y-DNA evolution or have an agenda.""
> 
> Of course he has an agenda.
> 
> _*""halplogroup I is derived from middle eastern haplogroup J. so not european.""*  Haplogroup IJ would have arrived from the Middle East to Europe some 35,000 years ago, then developed into haplogroup I soon afterwards. *In Europe for 35,000 years, yep that makes it European*. Just Like the Chinese Haplogroup O at one time came from the Middle East if you go back far enough because it came from F to K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. So what.


IJ and ED show strange spread,

both E and D comes from ED but in Far East we see D, and E at horn of Africa,
same I and J comes from IJ but at Asia mainly we see J and at Europe mainly I.

how that is done?  :Confused:

----------


## Dorquest

> IJ and ED show strange spread,
> 
> both E and D comes from ED but in Far East we see D, and E at horn of Africa,
> same I and J comes from IJ but at Asia mainly we see J and at Europe mainly I.
> 
> how that is done?


 I would guess...Time, movement of people – death of lineages  :Confused:

----------


## Yetos

> I would guess...Time, movement of people – death of lineages


I do not know

----------


## Dibran

> correct, minus is not IE marker, but rather Balkan primary, Anatolian/ Near East secondary.
> It is Neolithic, Not IE.


Wrong. E-V13 exploded with Indo-European migrations. People have this weird idea that if it is not R1a or R1b that it cannot be Indo-European. That is incorrect. It for sure is not Proto-Indo-European. However, E-V13 expanded with Indo-Europeans.

----------


## Jovialis

> israel is derived from ancient kemetic gods ISIS RA EL
> jesus is another name for HORUS and SHAITAN aka SATAN is derived from SET
> 
> basically astrotheological sun and moon worship. sunRAise (light) and sunSET (darkness)
> horus and set battle every day, day vs night, dark vs light, summer vs winter
> 
> bible is derived from sun worship, helios byblos, egyptian sun papers and book of dead 
> the middle east was once part of africa but it split away. the kemetic/egyptian mythologies and middle eastern overlap since the ancient hebrews came from egypt to middle east not vice versa. jesus and mary story is based on isis and horus
> 
> ...


I am not going to allow you to fill this forum up with trash.

----------


## Jovialis

Let's get back on topic, everyone. I will re-open the thread.

----------


## Yetos

> Wrong. E-V13 exploded with Indo-European migrations. People have this weird idea that if it is not R1a or R1b that it cannot be Indo-European. That is incorrect. It for sure is not Proto-Indo-European. However, E-V13 expanded with Indo-Europeans.



It is Neolithic, Not Eurasian steppe. and most possible Balkan mark, It is impossible to be IE.
It did not enter Balkans at Bronzeage ...

----------


## Dibran

> It is Neolithic, Not Eurasian steppe. and most possible Balkan mark, It is impossible to be IE.
> It did not enter Balkans at Bronzeage ...



E-V13 exploded and expanded in the Bronze Age. This is common knowledge at this point. It formed in the Neolthic. However, the most recent ancestor who is the forefather of all living E-V13 men lived in the Bronze Age(4800ybp) and can be found in numerous Indo-European graves and is linked with the expansion of Indo-Europeans alongside R1a and R1b. This is why I said only R1a/R1b are Proto-Indo-European and the rest can be classified as Indo-European through the course of cross assimilation. Because in the case of Europeans, most of them certainly are. There are even branches of G that spread with Celts. There is such a thing as branches and sub-branches. Context is important.

E-V13 was linked to the elite dominance of Bronze Age society. The geographic distribution of E-V13 quickly spread to all parts of Europe, but was especially common in Central Europe. The only Bronze Age migration that could account for such a fast and far-reaching dispersal is that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-V13 developed from E-M78 in Central or Eastern Europe during the Neolithic period, and was assimilated by the R1a and R1b Proto-Indo-Europeans.

----------


## kingjohn

> Let's get back on topic, everyone. I will re-open the thread.



thanks  :Good Job: 
kudos for you an angella for cleaning the mess it is not an easy job  :Good Job: 
he was an austrian troll  :Thinking:

----------


## Yetos

> E-V13 exploded and expanded in the Bronze Age. This is common knowledge at this point. *It formed in the Neolthic. However, the most recent ancestor who is the forefather of all living E-V13 men lived in the Bronze Age(4800ybp)* and can be found in numerous Indo-European graves and is linked with the expansion of Indo-Europeans alongside R1a and R1b. This is why I said only R1a/R1b are Proto-Indo-European and the rest can be classified as Indo-European through the course of cross assimilation. Because in the case of Europeans, most of them certainly are. There are even branches of G that spread with Celts. There is such a thing as branches and sub-branches. Context is important.
> 
> E-V13 was linked to the elite dominance of Bronze Age society. The geographic distribution of E-V13 quickly spread to all parts of Europe, but was especially common in Central Europe. The only Bronze Age migration that could account for such a fast and far-reaching dispersal is that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-V13 developed from E-M78 in Central or Eastern Europe during the Neolithic period, and was assimilated by the R1a and R1b Proto-Indo-Europeans.



Your post is clear the answer.

you have answer your shelf. 
no need for me,

you already wrote Neolithic, 

Bronze age at Balkans is the most far 3500 BC.

How much old is the sample found at Adriatic/Dinaric area?
is there any hg E Eurasian steppe?

----------


## Dibran

> Your post is clear the answer.
> 
> you have answer your shelf. 
> no need for me,
> 
> you already wrote Neolithic, 
> 
> Bronze age at Balkans is the most far 3500 BC.
> 
> ...


You're missing the entire point. But, then again; you always miss the point.

----------


## DuPidh

> We really don't care what other nations opinions are. Opinion are like...well you know. Everyone has one.
> 
> Yetos just likes to assume everyone want's to be Greek. First time I'm hearing this. That would be the last identity I would petition for.


OMG! Greeks have that attitude even in in English speaking world. They think being Greek carries extra social points. Only to find that for the Northern people Greeks are Wogs. ( I am not sure if i wrote it correct).I guess they call Albanians wogs as well, but Albanians keep a low profile in general so are mostly invisible ethnic groups, but Greeks are really offended by the epithet.

----------


## Yetos

> You're missing the entire point. But, then again; you always miss the point.



I don't think I am missing something,
Simply place place things to their positions,
Removing 'extras' it is nother thing Neolithic, another European and another IE.

----------


## Yetos

> OMG! Greeks have that attitude even in in English speaking world. They think being Greek carries extra social points. Only to find that for the Northern people Greeks are Wogs. ( I am not sure if i wrote it correct).I guess they call Albanians wogs as well, but Albanians keep a low profile in general so are mostly invisible ethnic groups, but Greeks are really offended by the epithet.



hahaha,

Do tell this to me, Tell it to some other who think they are Myceneans, Homeric people etc etc.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> OMG! Greeks have that attitude even in in English speaking world. They think being Greek carries extra social points. Only to find that for the Northern people Greeks are Wogs. ( I am not sure if i wrote it correct).I guess they call Albanians wogs as well, but Albanians keep a low profile in general so are mostly invisible ethnic groups, but Greeks are really offended by the epithet.


Well, most albanians aren't "wogs" and I'm sure there are plenty greeks too. Do they also call Italians, Spanish, Portuguese and Serbs wogs for being darker tone? 

A lot of northern people look like wogs when they go on holiday btw. If you look at haplogroups, it tends to be only regions with significant amount of i1 that have a lot of blondes and there aren't many of these regions left

----------


## Jovialis

The saying goes, _"The wogs begin at Calais"_. Also stop using that word, guys, because it is inappropriate for the forum.


Funny anecdote, I was in an Irish bar, one New Year's eve with a friend, and we became acquainted with a British guy there. He had an accent, so he was from England. He asked about us, where we came from. I told him I was Italian, but later he referred to me as Albanian. I corrected him, and he sharply, yet jokingly replied, "Whatever, you all look the same" :)


Also, I know quite a few Albanians. My friend married an Albanian, and I went to their wedding. Some of them seemed pretty dark to me, they could easily pass for Sicilian. But like in all southern European groups, there is a lot of phenotypic-diversity. My friend's wife has blonde hair and blue eyes.

----------


## Jovialis

> Well, most albanians aren't "wogs" and I'm sure there are plenty greeks too. Do they also call Italians, Spanish, Portuguese and Serbs wogs for being darker tone? 
> A lot of northern people look like wogs when they go on holiday btw. If you look at haplogroups, it tends to be only regions with significant amount of i1 that have a lot of blondes and there aren't many of these regions left


Haplogroups do not dictate phenotype. Autosomal DNA is responsible for this.

Albanian autosomal DNA is predominately Anatolian_N + CHG/IN. Steppe and WHG are minority components. The same can be said for many Italians.

----------


## DuPidh

This Wog thing I mentioned this is especially pronounced in Australia. Its no longer active in USA. But I brought the topic because I saw Australian Greeks protest about it. Who cares if someone calls you Wog, let alone protest. What you have to do is make the other work for you, through going to school, excelling in school, building a prosperous life for yourself, being socially fair and helpful

----------


## torzio

> This Wog thing I mentioned this is especially pronounced in Australia. Its no longer active in USA. But I brought the topic because I saw Australian Greeks protest about it. Who cares if someone calls you Wog, let alone protest. What you have to do is make the other work for you, through going to school, excelling in school, building a prosperous life for yourself, being socially fair and helpful



The Wog thing from Australia was originally meant to be on for the early chinese in Australia...it means Western Oriental Gentleman

the other is Dago ............which was meant for Italians and spanish as it came from the spanish christian name Diego ............Diego is spanish for James ............James is associated with Jimmy .............a jimmy is slang in australia for a foreigner

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Haplogroups do not dictate phenotype. Autosomal DNA is responsible for this.
> Albanian autosomal DNA is predominately Anatolian_N + CHG/IN. Steppe and WHG are minority components. The same can be said for many Italians.


Haplogroups play big role in autosomal dna, not sure what your point is.

A country or even better a city/town is made up from all the different y dna that has remained there giving them the skin tone and features

My point is regions with a lot of i1 are usually more "white" or more blonde, most r1b-strong regions that lack i1 don't look more "white" than south europeans

----------


## Jovialis

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

----------


## DuPidh

OMG! This person is out of control. Don't think has a passing grade in any school subject!

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> You clearly do not know what you are talking about.


Look at r1b some strong regions in Spain, Portugal or even France/Switzerland. Most people there look like South Europeans or darker toned

It is only regions with bigger amounts of i1 in Germany, Sweden, Norway and England that look more "pale" or more "blonde". This is common knowledge

----------


## Jovialis

> Look at r1b some strong regions in Spain, Portugal or even France/Switzerland. Most people there look like South Europeans or darker toned
> It is only regions with bigger amounts of i1 in Germany, Sweden, Norway and England that look more "pale" or more "blonde". This is common knowledge


Phenotype is determined by a combination of different alleles. People who seemingly have the same phenotype may actually have a different combination. Again, haplogroups do not determine your phenotype.




> Hair color ranges across a wide spectrum of hues, from flaxen blond to coal black. Many genes other than MC1R play a role in determining shades of hair color by controlling levels of eumelanin and pheomelanin. Some of these genes, including _ASIP_, _DTNBP1_, _GPR143_, _HPS3_, _KITLG_, _MLPH__,__MYO5A_, _MYO7A_, _OCA2_, _SLC45A2_, _SLC24A5_, _TYRP1_, TYR, _ERCC6_, _GNAS_, _HERC2_, _IRF4_, _OBSCN_, _SLC24A4_, _TPCN2_, and _MITF_, are involved in the production of melanin in hair. Some of these genes are associated with gene transcription (which is the first step in protein production), DNA repair, the transport of substances (such as calcium) across cell membranes, or the structure of hair follicles. Several of these genes contribute to eye and skin color, but the exact role they play in determining hair color is unknown.
> 
> https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/und...uces%20melanin.


Eye color:




> _
> Although eye color is usually modeled as a simple, Mendelian trait, further research and observation has indicated that eye color does not follow the classical paths of inheritance. Eye color phenotypes demonstrate both epistasis and incomplete dominance. Although there are about 16 different genes responsible for eye color, it is mostly attributed to two adjacent genes on chromosome 15, hect domain and RCC1-like domain-containing protein 2 (HERC2) and ocular albinism (that is, oculocutaneous albinism II (OCA2)). An intron in HERC2 contains the promoter region for OCA2, affecting its expression. Therefore, single-nucleotide polymorphisms in either of these two genes have a large role in the eye color of an individual. Furthermore, with all genetic expression, aberration also occurs. Some individuals may express two phenotypes—one in each eye—or a complete lack of pigmentation, ocular albinism. In addition, the evolutionary and population roles of the different expressions are significant.
> 
> __https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg2...0elementary%20 form,classified%20as%20a%20Mendelian%20trait.&text =On%20the%20basis%20of%20the,rare%20cases%2C%20vio let%20and%20red._




Skin color:




> Human skin colour is highly heritable and externally visible with relevance in medical, forensic, and anthropological genetics. Although eye and hair colour can already be predicted with high accuracies from small sets of carefully selected DNA markers, knowledge about the genetic predictability of skin colour is limited. Here, we investigate the skin colour predictive value of 77 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) from 37 genetic loci previously associated with human pigmentation using 2025 individuals from 31 global populations. We identified a minimal set of 36 highly informative skin colour predictive SNPs and developed a statistical prediction model capable of skin colour prediction on a global scale. Average cross-validated prediction accuracies expressed as area under the receiver-operating characteristic curve (AUC) ± standard deviation were 0.97 ± 0.02 for Light, 0.83 ± 0.11 for Dark, and 0.96 ± 0.03 for Dark-Black. When using a 5-category, this resulted in 0.74 ± 0.05 for Very Pale, 0.72 ± 0.03 for Pale, 0.73 ± 0.03 for Intermediate, 0.87±0.1 for Dark, and 0.97 ± 0.03 for Dark-Black. A comparative analysis in 194 independent samples from 17 populations demonstrated that our model outperformed a previously proposed 10-SNP-classifier approach with AUCs rising from 0.79 to 0.82 for White, comparable at the intermediate level of 0.63 and 0.62, respectively, and a large increase from 0.64 to 0.92 for Black. Overall, this study demonstrates that the chosen DNA markers and prediction model, particularly the 5-category level; allow skin colour predictions within and between continental regions for the first time, which will serve as a valuable resource for future applications in forensic and anthropologic genetics.
> 
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1808-5

----------


## kingjohn

> Look at r1b some strong regions in Spain, Portugal or even France/Switzerland. Most people there look like South Europeans or darker toned
> It is only regions with bigger amounts of i1 in Germany, Sweden, Norway and England that look more "pale" or more "blonde". This is common knowledge




don't know 
than why *ireland whch is like 90% r1b* 
are very pale skin ( maybe not blond but they don't look south european )

----------


## Yetos

hm

and what mothers?

don't they inherit some phenotype genes to their descendans?

----------


## Anfänger

"Yeyy Haplogroups are everything and determine phenotype", these kind of people you should definitely avoid if you are interested in genetics.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> don't know 
> than why *ireland whch is like 90% r1b* 
> are very pale skin ( maybe not blond but they don't look south european )


I don't think Ireland is 90% r1b and they are in a cold region which also helps them look pale at all times. I'm sure Ireland has some North/German ancestry too

We must also remember that not all r1b came from the same regions, subclades are important in determining phenotypes, some r1b groups had different mtdna to mix with

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Phenotype is determined by a combination of different alleles. People who seemingly have the same phenotype may actually have a different combination. Again, haplogroups do not determine your phenotype.
> 
> 
> 
> Eye color:
> 
> 
> 
> Skin color:


Yes phenotypes can be different but they are bound to vary more across different y dna than they do with same y dna, I am not just talking about general y dna it would have to be same subclades 

If you set up a region where all the males have the same y dna subclades eventually the people will look alike

----------


## Jovialis

> Yes phenotypes can be different but they are bound to vary more across different y dna than they do with same y dna, I am not just talking about general y dna it would have to be same subclades 
> If you set up a region where all the males have the same y dna subclades eventually the people will look alike


There are no legitimate studies that support these claims that I know of.

----------


## kingjohn

> I don't think Ireland is 90% r1b and they are in a cold region which also helps them look pale at all times. I'm sure Ireland has some North/German ancestry too
> We must also remember that not all r1b came from the same regions, subclades are important in determining phenotypes, some r1b groups had different mtdna to mix with


Ok i was wrong but not by much ( not 90%)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b
Ireland is 82% r1b thats huge beyond words :Shocked:  :Smile: 
It means every 8 people out of 10 you will pick randomly will be r1b .... 
Dont know what is your point is ...
To say that i1 dominant areas will look more like dolph lundgren (nordic)than r1b dominant areas? 

P.s
If an r1b person have the genes for blond hair
And blue eyes and they are dominant in his case
He might end up with those features
There is no connection to his y haplogroup :Thinking: 
More to his total autosomal profile :Thinking:

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## Yetos

> Yes phenotypes can be different but they are bound to vary more across different y dna than they do with same y dna, I am not just talking about general y dna it would have to be same subclades 
> If you set up a region where all the males have the same y dna subclades eventually the people will look alike


*so according what you write, if a region has same Ydna all peoplelook alike?*

even if the mothers are blonde? brown? red? black? 

*hmm, very advanced theory,*

so genes of phenotype are only at 23 pair and only at Y, 

*so women who have no Y dna, WHAT? have no phenotype? and are all same or painted?

*


> If you set up a region where all the males have the same y dna subclades eventually the people will look alike


So in a region n that has all males the same YDna, (although women from Africa, India, Balts, China, New Guinnea (Papoua) etc) subclades eventually the people will look alike.
Is that you want to say to us?

I suggest primary look at you family, where all males have same Y-DNA, then Neghbours family, etc etc.
cause that you say to us is not even at close family.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> *so according what you write, if a region has same Ydna all peoplelook alike?*
> even if the mothers are blonde? brown? red? black? 
> *hmm, very advanced theory,*
> so genes of phenotype are only at 23 pair and only at Y, 
> *so women who have no Y dna, WHAT? have no phenotype? and are all same or painted?
> *
> So in a region n that has all males the same YDna, (although women from Africa, India, Balts, China, New Guinnea (Papoua) etc) subclades eventually the people will look alike.
> Is that you want to say to us?
> I suggest primary look at you family, where all males have same Y-DNA, then Neghbours family, etc etc.
> cause that you say to us is not even at close family.


You don't understand

The mothers can have an affect if they had a father with a much different y dna. If you have a region where everyone has the same y dna that must mean the women also had fathers with the same y dna or at least this will be the case over time (at least the males) 

But if you have a region with everyone same y dna and you want women with all different father y dna then it would take a long time to achieve the same result but eventually all the men a few hundred years later will still look similar if the y dna remains constant

As for my family, using the same logic I applied above the y dna in my family will be the same BUT the women will have come from fathers with likely different y dna - the less of this the more chance we all look alike

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Ok i was wrong but not by much ( not 90%)
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b
> Ireland is 82% r1b thats huge beyond words
> It means every 8 people out of 10 you will pick randomly will be r1b .... 
> Dont know what is your point is ...
> To say that i1 dominant areas will look more like dolph lundgren (nordic)than r1b dominant areas? 
> P.s
> If an r1b person have the genes for blond hair
> And blue eyes and they are dominant in his case
> ...


I think Ireland was one of the regions who had some early North european i2a prior to r1b, in fact they still carry some now? This could mean the r1b killed off most of them and took their women therefore receiving some their genes - blue eyes etc - additionally there was English and viking influence in Ireland later on which brought some more "northern" characteristics - this wouldn't just be i1 but it would also be r1b people from Germany/England etc who had mixed with i1 daughters therefore receiving some of the genes

I am certain that not all 80% of Ireland belongs to the same subclade of r1b

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## kingjohn

> I think Ireland was one of the regions who had some early North european i2a prior to r1b, in fact they still carry some now? This could mean the *r1b killed off most of them* and took their women therefore receiving some their genes - blue eyes etc - additionally there was English and viking influence in Ireland later on which brought some more "northern" characteristics - this wouldn't just be i1 but it would also be r1b people from Germany/England etc who had mixed with i1 daughters therefore receiving some of the genes
> I am certain that not all 80% of Ireland belongs to the same subclade of r1b


i agree on that though 
to reach this kind of frequency %
is beyond words and very likely involved killing  :Thinking: 
or systematic genocide of the first people who settled in ireland  :Thinking: 
maybe r1b people had some technological advantage or very advanced attack tools


p.s
small question *how is all this related to macedonians* ?
they don't have *a huge y haplogroup dominant like in ireland* 
they are a mixture of: r1a , e-v13, I2 , j2b and r1b

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## TaktikatEMalet

> i agree on that though 
> to reach this kind of frequency %
> is beyond words and very likely involved killing 
> or systematic genocide of the first people who settled in ireland 
> maybe r1b people had some technological advantage or very advanced attack tools
> p.s
> small question *how is all this related to macedonians* ?
> they don't have *a huge y haplogroup dominant like in ireland* 
> they are a mixture of: r1a , e-v13, I2 , j2b and r1b


Someone above brought up Irish people. In terms of what 80% r1b means is first of all not too much because the sub clades weren't mentioned. The r1b may have come from different periods from different groups such as the angles, the french, vikings etc in addition to the i1 they carried. If you look at the English they have a lot of r1b too accompanied by i1, so if we say 60/25 then Ireland having 10% i1 would make it likely to have received 15%+ foreign r1b at the same time because it wouldn't have just been pure i1 who would have had an impact in Ireland, they would have been integrated with the people they encountered previously. So English r1b and French r1b, some of which may be similar or the same to that the Irish had in the first place but would have extra northern i1 features from mixing with their women

For Macedonia we know that i2 is mostly south slavic post 600AD. R1a if Z93 could be Thracian? Otherwise most of it is likely south slavic 600AD+
V13 is mostly south/central european BC, j2b l283 is mostly balkan BC, R1b is varied depends on what subclade Macedonians have.

Looking at all these you would have to say Macedonians are more mixed than Irish but difficult to say for sure without subclade percentages. If the Irish have various subclade of R1b and the highest one group goes is 10% then it is possible that Macedonians are less mixed

In any case this is too complex to answer because we don't have much ancient dna or ancient written history. What we do know is that Ireland is a remote region and also a cold region so less groups of people would have passed through

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## Pericles

Are you talking about North Macedonians? Actual Macedonians are Greek, right?

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## DuPidh

> Are you talking about North Macedonians? Actual Macedonians are Greek, right?


Enough lies! The world is not stupid. Macedonians were Macedonians, spoke different language until 4 century ad. The rest are lies cooked in Greek government kitchens1!

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## Angela

> Enough lies! The world is not stupid. Macedonians were Macedonians, spoke different language until 4 century ad. The rest are lies cooked in Greek government kitchens1!


More posts like this and you're going to go silent for a good, long while.

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## Yetos

> You don't understand
> The mothers can have an affect if they had a father with a much different y dna. If you have a region where everyone has the same y dna that must mean the women also had fathers with the same y dna or at least this will be the case over time (at least the males) 
> But if you have a region with everyone same y dna and you want women with all different father y dna then it would take a long time to achieve the same result but eventually all the men a few hundred years later will still look similar if the y dna remains constant
> As for my family, using the same logic I applied above the y dna in my family will be the same BUT the women will have come from fathers with likely different y dna - the less of this the more chance we all look alike




 :Wallbash:   :Wallbash:   :Wallbash: 

*And I am suposed to take you serious right?*

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## drsibel

My mother's parents were immigrants from Thessaloniki in 1924. My grandfather always said we were Macedonians. Neither Greek nor Bulgarian. Our ancestral land is in Vodina(edesse), and we are Macedonians. There were no Greeks where they lived, but there were Bulgarians.Most tormented by Bulgarian gangs. In the end, they were subject to forced migration.As someone who came from there, I wanted to write something.

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## Pericles

What you wrote is not correct historically. The ancient writers who first described the Macedonians ALL described them as Greeks. If they weren't they would have described them as other than Greeks. And we are talking about Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides. So please stop the false claims about Macedonians. 





> No it is not. I guess it is about your defination of Greeks. I am also don't call the Cypriots as Greek, I don't care that is their language or religion or what is their origin mtyh. 
> 
> This is a genetic distance issue for me. 
> 
> Attachment 12366
> 
> Also Sardinians are not Italian because of genetic distance. See how Iranian and Georgian or Turkish and Kurdish areas are intertwined. 
> 
> Do you call the Georgian, North Iranian? Do you call the Kurds, Eastern Turks? I don't think so.
> ...

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## my8os

Genetics do not define an ethnicity! Why even talk about it?
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area."
I don't see genetics in this definition from Wikipedia. So why are you even considering genetics? 
Does the American nation feel French/Dutch/English/Porto Rican/etc or do they feel American because they share a common "set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment"? 

The ancient Macedonians self-declared as Greeks. There are multiple instances from Alexander I all the way to Philip V. Who are we to deny how they felt? Isn't an ethnicity based on self-identification? If not, then the so-called modern 'Macedonians' who feel Macedonian have a much weaker position since their ancestors came to the Balkans in the 6th c AD, and these people are a new ethnicity which evolved a little over a century ago (cf. Eugene Borza).

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