# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Poll: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

## sparkey

Remember, his Y-DNA should be published soon. So, take a guess! I'd like to see tallies. Recall that he lived 5,300 years ago in the Italian Alps.

I'm guessing G2a.

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## Taranis

Interesting poll! I agree that G2a is a likely possibility (given how G2a appears to be *the* Neolithic Haplgroup in Europe), but the interesting question should be this: if he is not G2a what is the most likely he could be?

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## sparkey

> Interesting poll! I agree that G2a is a likely possibility (given how G2a appears to be *the* Neolithic Haplgroup in Europe), but the interesting question should be this: if he is not G2a what is the most likely he could be?


I thought it would be too easy to say "I" so I split it up into a bunch of subclades in the poll. Of my options, I think I2a1, especially its subclade I2a1a, had the largest spread in Ötzi's region during his time, so I think it's possibility #2. But his mtDNA was an odd extinct subclade, so I wouldn't be surprised if we found something similarly rare or even extinct for Y-DNA, like I2* or I* or F*.

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## Taranis

> I thought it would be too easy to say "I" so I split it up into a bunch of subclades in the poll. Of my options, I think I2a1, especially its subclade I2a1a, had the largest spread in Ötzi's region during his time, so I think it's possibility #2. But his mtDNA was an odd extinct subclade, so I wouldn't be surprised if we found something similarly rare or even extinct for Y-DNA, like I2* or I* or F*.


I agree that something extremely rare or extinct is absolutely possible, given how the Neolithic site in Germany yielded F* alongside of G2a. What is absolutely unlikely is any one of the following:

- N1c1
- Q
- L

I also think that J1, J2, R1a and R1b are rather unlikely, especially R1b would totally surprise me at this point.

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## sparkey

> I agree that something extremely rare or extinct is absolutely possible, given how the Neolithic site in Germany yielded F* alongside of G2a. What is absolutely unlikely is any one of the following:
> 
> - N1c1
> - Q
> - L
> 
> I also think that J1, J2, R1a and R1b are rather unlikely, especially R1b would totally surprise me at this point.


I tend to agree. Would you say that we're still so confused about E1b that we can say that it is neither likely nor unlikely to appear?

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## Taranis

> I tend to agree. Would you say that we're still so confused about E1b that we can say that it is neither likely nor unlikely to appear?


Yes, E1b is a mystery. I must admit that I was quite baffled by the absence of E1b in Neolithic sites. Given how E1b has some very high concentrations in certain parts of Europe (Iberia, northern France and the Balkans - especially Albania), it is quite a mystery.

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## Mzungu mchagga

Is this a contest? Do I win something when I'm correct? Will the price be split if more than one is correct?

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## Taranis

> Is this a contest? Do I win something when I'm correct? Will the price be split if more than one is correct?


Good one. At the end, your guess may be just as good (or just as bad) as anybody else's.  :Grin:

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## Goga

I voted R1b L11+, because I couldn't choose between I1 or I2 and their subclades.

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## Mzungu mchagga

For the case sparkey changes his mind and he decides to hand over a price that will be split, I precautiously set my vote on an option no one has bet on so far.  :Wary:

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## sparkey

I will personally see to it that the winner(s) get +rep. (What, were you expecting more than "reputation" on an Internet forum poll?  :Grin: )

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## Mzungu mchagga

> I will personally see to it that the winner(s) get +rep. (What, were you expecting more than "reputation" on an Internet forum poll? )


lol 
sounds fair!  :Good Job:

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## Dorianfinder

Me thinks a G2a goat herder playing the pan pipes or even a bag pipe.

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## Knovas

I voted for I2a. Will see!

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## Mzungu mchagga

Huh? Why can't we see anymore who voted for which option? In any case, I voted I2a1, too!

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## sparkey

> Huh? Why can't we see anymore who voted for which option? In any case, I voted I2a1, too!


Really? Did you try clicking on the underlined tallies? I see everybody's votes. I would like to hear Semitic Duwa's explanation for "I* or IJ" in particular... really interesting choice! Personally, that's how I would vote if Ötzi was a Cro-Magnon, but I think his time period is probably too late for I* or IJ (but you never know!).

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## barbarian

e1b

i guess this is my one and only chance to get some rep.

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## Mzungu mchagga

> Really? Did you try clicking on the underlined tallies? I see everybody's votes. I would like to hear Semitic Duwa's explanation for "I* or IJ" in particular... really interesting choice! Personally, that's how I would vote if Ötzi was a Cro-Magnon, but I think his time period is probably too late for I* or IJ (but you never know!).


Oops I didn't know about that option, thanks!

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## Taranis

> e1b
> 
> i guess this is my one and only chance to get some rep.


Well, as I said, we're pretty much tapping in the dark with E1b (with exception of E-M81, I would say, upon second thought), so who knows.  :Good Job:

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## elghund

I voted R1b-L11. Perhaps S116 or U106.

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## Maciamo

I voted G2a. But here is my ranking of likelihood :

1) G2a
2) I2a1 (old I2a)
3) E1b1b
4) T
5) J2
6) I2c
7) J1
8) R1a
9) R1b1* or R1b1c
10) I2*
11) I* or IJ
12) F
13) L

I think it is impossible that Ötzi was R1b1b2. R1b is possible though, but only older subclades like R1b1 (P25) or R1b1c (V88), or conceivably even R1b1b*. I cannot imagine how he could be N1c1 or Q either.

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## Bodin

I would say G2a or less likely F* , I2a1 or J2 :Thinking:

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## sparkey

> I voted G2a. But here is my ranking of likelihood :
> 
> 1) G2a
> 2) I2a1 (old I2a)
> 3) E1b1b
> 4) T
> 5) J2
> 6) I2c
> 7) J1
> ...


I'll give a ranking a shot. I think that you importantly missed I2a2 and I2b and give too little credit to F:

1) G2a -- an obviously dominant Neolithic haplogroup
2) I2a1 (old I2a) -- another obviously dominant Neolithic haplogroup, especially in the West
3) I2c -- didn't apparently spread as fast as I2a1, but spread earlier than most Haplogroup I, and has a center of diversity close to Ötzi
4) F -- already seen in a Neolithic sample, could be a sign of things to come
5) I2a2 (old I2b) -- a later spread than I2a1 and probably a bit farther from Ötzi than I2c, but both are still within range
6) E1b -- still a big question mark, but Ötzi could possibly be our E1b breakthrough
7) J2 -- could be Neolithic, also raises questions
8) T -- ditto E1b, J2
9) J1 -- ditto E1b, J2, T
10) I2b-ADR -- probably too rare and poorly assimilated with farmers, but has a center of diversity not too far Southeast of Ötzi
11) R1b L11- -- could have feasibly spread into Europe before R1b L11+
12) R1a -- we're stretching R1a's range here, but I think it could have spread outside of Corded Ware early
13) R1b L11+ -- this would pretty much mean that Taranis, Maciamo, and I are wrong about R1b L11+, which, sure, is possible
14) I2* -- we'd have to theorize him to be an extinct branch of I2 for him to be I2*, which is now an empty set, although if he is an extinct branch of something, this may be most likely
15) I1 -- I1 clearly expanded far North of Ötzi after he lived, so he would pretty much have to be an extinct branch of it
16) I* or IJ -- another extinct branch possibility, probably too early for Ötzi
17) L -- we're very far outside of L's range, but it could represent early movement of it
18) Q -- ditto L
19) N1c1 -- ditto Q

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## Taranis

Very well said, Sparkey. I must say, it would be fascinating if Ötzi would end up being our E1b breakthrough.

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## Maciamo

I don't think that Ötzi could be I1 or I2a2 (old I2b). These haplogroups are too northern in origin to be found at the Italo-Swiss border in the Chalcolithic. 

As for F, I believe that the Neolithic LBK sample was a fake F, more likely to have been a J1. The study didn't test for M267. I was also misled to think that F still existed in the Caucasus, but it turned out that all the F was actually J1. In other words, if F* is almost inexistent today, I doubt that it ever was a major Neolithic haplogroup. It is just too old.

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## Taranis

> I don't think that Ötzi could be I1 or I2a2 (old I2b). These haplogroups are too northern in origin to be found at the Italo-Swiss border in the Chalcolithic. 
> 
> As for F, I believe that the Neolithic LBK sample was a fake F, more likely to have been a J1. The study didn't test for M267. I was also misled to think that F still existed in the Caucasus, but it turned out that all the F was actually J1. In other words, if F* is almost inexistent today, I doubt that it ever was a major Neolithic haplogroup. It is just too old.


Hmm. I did not know that! It would explain quite a bit, though.

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## sparkey

Dienekes steals my thunder. His readers are putting G in third place behind I and R.

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## Maciamo

> Dienekes steals my thunder. His readers are putting G in third place behind I and R.


Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.

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## Taranis

> Yes, and Dienekes himself voted for R1b ! Well, the guy still think that R1b colonised Europe during the Neolithic, even after ancient DNA from the Neolithic and early Bronze Age found no R1b at all in Germany or France.


Yeah, Neolithic R1b, at this point is very, very unlikely. I think it's more likely that Ötzi turns up E1b than R1b (any variety of R1b, at that). And honestly, one trend I have noticed thus far, especially in regard for R1b more than anything else, is that Haplogroups turned out to be a lot younger than we expected. At this point, I must admit, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that R1b didn't arrive in Western Europe not by the Chalcolithic, but really only by the Bronze Age.

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## Knovas

I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.

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## Taranis

> I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.


Perhaps not.

G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.

If R1b started out in dispersing from the Alps, I would expect some of the lowest ratios of G2a today there, and not one of the highest.

If R1b really only arrived in the Bronze Age, well, either scenarios are wrong anyways.

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## Mzungu mchagga

Does anyone think Dienekes has seen this thread here?  :Grin: 

Anyways, mind me introducing a popular Austrian joke?
Q: What nationality was Ötzi?

A: 
-They found brain in the mummy's head - Couldn't be an Austrian!
-They found tools he was carrying around - Couldn't be an Italian!
-The glacier was faster than him - Mmh, could have been Swizz, but...
-...he was wearing sandals in the high mountains - Easy, was German!  :Nuts:  LMAO

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## Maciamo

> I still think my option is the correct one. However, don't understimate Dienekes'...perhaps he's right.


Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a _very_ different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.

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## spongetaro

> Perhaps not.
> 
> G2a today has some of the highest concentrations in Europe in more mountainous areas. If R1b is Chalcolithic in age and indeed derived from the Beaker-Bell Culture, then it's main dispersal was via the sea via the main water ways and we would see exactly in the mountanous a better survival of the Neolithic population.



Not all G2a are neolithic. Some subclades are only found in Europe. G2a3b1a2 L497 makes 40 % of G2a in Europe and is found mainly around the Alpes

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## Knovas

Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.

According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).

I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.

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## Wilhelm

> I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones.


 The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.

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## Taranis

> Dienekes also claimed for years that Neanderthals never interbred with Homo Sapiens. We now know that he was completely wrong. For the anecdote, I first seriously thought about the possibility of Europeans being a hybrid Neanderthal-Homo Sapiens race when I went to live in Japan 10 years ago. There I noticed that East Asian people had a _very_ different skull shape from Europeans. Being quite dolichocephalic myself, with a prominent occipital bun, it started me how East Asian skulls fell so straight, at a 90° angle, from the top of their head to in the continuation of their neck, while many European (though not all) have a much more elongated and rounded skull at the back. It immediately reminded me of the shape of Neanderthal skulls. When looking at all the physical characteristics of Neanderthals, it suddenly dawned on me that East Asians didn't have any of these characteristics, while I had almost all of them (except the low skull and short stocky stature). I inspected and compared assiduously physical traits of people from all over the world for many years and became earnestly convinced that Europeans, and especially northern Europeans, inherited a sizeable part of their genome from Neanderthals. It came as a surprise to me that East Asians inherited almost as much Neanderthal DNA as Europeans. Perhaps did they select for different genes, less phenotypical ones. It's already obvious from the HLA that East Asians and Papuans inherited a bigger percentage of their immune system from Neanderthals and Denisovans than from Homo Sapiens.


I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.

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## Asturrulumbo

> Very interesting Maciamo. Of course, if Dienekes' thought what you say, he was completely wrong.
> 
> According to Interpretome I have 13 Neanderthal alleles. I'm a bit over the average European, but very far from the highest scores reported on Northern Europeans (26-27).
> 
> I specially have VERY fair skin and blue eyes, the rest probably nothing. But I recently saw a girl (she was on hollidays in Barcelona, surely Northern European) with almost all traits descrived. It was very curious, she looked incredibly rare (specially eye cavity), I've never seen something like this in my life.


Now that theme springs up, just a small question: When (if ever) did it become biologically impossible/unlikely for Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals to interbreed?

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## Knovas

Since Cromagnons entered Europe it was impossible not to interbreed with Neanderthals, because the last ones were surely the first inhabitants of Europe. However, Neanderthals should appear less in number at some point, and they were completely absorbed.

I think that's the simple summary.

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## Bodin

> e1b
> 
> i guess this is my one and only chance to get some rep.


I would give you some reputation

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## Bodin

No I dont think E1b1b has yet reached Europe by that time , but I would give you rep for try

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## Asturrulumbo

I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?

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## Maciamo

> I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
> Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?


Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too. E1b1b and T would have come directly from the Levant through a Mediterranean route passing by Greece and Italy. The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.

As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.

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## Maciamo

> The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.


Indeed, I noticed that among quite a few Polish people too. But Eastern Europeans may have inherited some genes from Siberians or Central Asians in this regard.

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## Maciamo

> I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.


I always said that Neanderthals probably interbred with Homo Sapiens in the Middle East and Central Asia at least as much as they did in Europe (blond and red hair, for instance, probably came to Europe with the R1a and R1b people, who originated from Central Asia). I think that fair skin could very well have come from Neanderthal, which is why it is found in all Eurasia (except South India). Note that the only dark-skinned people outside Africa (Dravidians, Aboriginal Australians) are those that presumably descend from the first wave out of Africa 60-70,000 years ago (probably haplogroup C and D), following the coast of South Asia as far Australia. East Asian hg C and D would have been autosomally influenced by the Denisovans or later Homo Sapiens incomers, which explains why they also have white skin and are nearly undistinguishable from hg N, O or Q people physically.

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## Wilhelm

The genes responsible for white skin in europeans is different than that of east-asians, meaning that in the latter the process of lightening skintone has followed a different path

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## Bodin

Skin have to lighten in colder aerias - due to lack of sun , arose deficiency of vitamin D , and that lead to serious twisting of bouns , and to crepling of body . Whiter skin is more eficient gatherer of vitamin D than dark one . 
But for light eyes and hair I would say are inhereted from Neanderthals . Mongolic peoples have quite diferent adaptations to cold conditions - more fat under eye covers , broad face and splatered nose are bether for frost , small eyes help against sun reflection from snow - so eyes are not damaged , smaller body due to faster metebolism ,... This is the way Homo Sapiens would adapt to cold , and European adaptations are diferent , but never the less eficient

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## Asturrulumbo

> Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too.


This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:
"The LBK people settled on fluvial terraces and in the proximities of rivers. They were quick to identify regions of fertile loess. On it they raised a distinctive assemblage of crops and associated weeds in small plots, an economy that Gimbutas called a "garden type of civilization." The difference between a crop and a weed in LBK contexts is the frequency. (...) The LBK people were stock-raisers as well, with cattle favoured, though goats and swine are also recorded. Like farmers today, they may have used the better grain for themselves and the lower grades for the animals. The ubiquitous dogs are present here too, but scantly. Substantial wild faunal remains are found. The LBK supplemented their diets by hunting deer and wild boar in the open forests of Europe as it was then."
So it seems to me that while they did hunt, it was not as important as to other Neolithic cultures; and though they did have domestic animals, cattle (as opposed to sheep or goats, more suited for mountainous places and especially nomadic pastoralism) was the most widespread. And while I do not debate the Anatollian/Caucasian theory for the origin of G2a, it seems to me that at least in Western/Central Europe they developed much more agricultural traditions (possibly influenced by the "Old European" cultures of the Balkans?). But of course, if such is the case, why then do the greatest G2a frequencies appear in mountainous areas? A possible answer to this, in my opinion, could be that many of them retreated to the highlands during the Indo-European expansions, where they developed a more pastoral culture and economy. 



> The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.


But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?



> As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.


That's why I considered it the most improbable (among many other things).

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## Maciamo

> This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:


I don't know if LBK was more agriculture oriented, but I was referring to all Neolithic cultures in Europe. 




> But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?


Sorry, I wrote too fast. I meant Printed Cardium Pottery of course.

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## geiserich

I think ötzi is G2a the prominent haplogroup of Neolithic farmers.

If it would be R1b, it would be very interesting because we could date the specific subclade more precisely.

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## Maciamo

Ötzi's case is definitely interesting because the place and time he lived was a major crossroad in European prehistory. Not only are the Alps the geographic limit between two distinct Neolithic routes, the period in which Ötzi lived coincides with various contemporary Neolithic, Chacolithic and early Bronze Age cultures in Europe. It was a time of change, a three-speed Europe. 5300 years ago, the Neolithic movement had barely reached northern Europe, the Chalcolithic was well implanted in the Danubian basin (around modern Romania, northern Bulgaria and Serbia) while the Bronze Age ha just started in the Caucasus (Maykop culture).

I just found out on the website of the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology that Ötzi probably belonged to the Remedello culture from Northern Italy. This was one of the first Copper Age culture to reach the Italian peninsula, and indeed Ötzi did carry a copper axe. If such is the case, it would mean that Ötzi was not related to the Neolithic inhabitants of Italy (Printed Cardium Pottery), and therefore his chances of belonging to haplogroup I2a1 is close to nil, while I would lower a bit my previsions for G2a. Ötzi would have been related to the cultures of "Old Europe" (Linear Pottery, Lengyel, Black-and-Grey Pottery, etc.). If anything it makes it even more interesting, although we already have three samples from the LBK culture, and these were two G2a and one individual that could be F or IJ or J1 (probably J1). I still believe that haplogroups E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c (V88) were all part of the Neolithic and/or Chalcolithic migrants to Europe. In other words, Ötzi could be G2a, J1, E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c/R1b1b. Add to this I2a2, which I also believe to be native to Southeast Europe rather than a late arrival with the Slavic migrations. That's a lot of possibilities.

Considering that Ötzi is brachycephalic, I would lower my previsions for haplogroup E1b1b, which usually correlate with dolichocephalic phenotypes. I expect J2 and R1b-ht35 to have spread later than the Chalcolithic, probably more during the Bronze and Iron Ages (perhaps along with E1b1b during the Greco-Roman expansions).

I would be extremely surprised if Ötzi was I1, I2b, L, N, Q, R1a or R1b1b2a1. I also don't expect him to be I2a1.

The more likely haplogroups remaining are (in order of likelihood) : G2a, I2a2, R1b1c, J1, and T.

The less likely, but still possible haplogroups : E1b1b, R1b-ht35, J2.

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## sparkey

The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.

From a comment on Dienekes' blog:




> According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!
> 
> Link?
> 
> The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
> http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dok...967/index.html
> But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!


I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.

Those who voted G2a before this are:

BodinCobol19DorianfinderDubhthachgeiserichGloomyGonzalesLeBrok*Maciamo*SilesparkeyTaranis
That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.

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## MarTyro

Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.

I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out. 




> According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4! The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011.


If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.

Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?

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## zanipolo

> Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.
> 
> I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out. 
> 
> If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.
> 
> Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?


There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.

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## MarTyro

> There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.


I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.

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## Alan

> The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.
> 
> From a comment on Dienekes' blog:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.
> 
> Those who voted G2a before this are:
> ...


You can ad me to this list.  :Laughing:  I chose this too on Dienekes board.

Here is the Interview. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXiwWpmSbs

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## Maciamo

I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.

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## zanipolo

> I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.



This is what I wrote on the 22 July 2011

*otzi is mtdna of K10 and his dna is as you said G2a. This is because he was found in the middle of the Raeti/Rhaeti tribes of Venostes and Vennonete who resided in the modern region of Veneto in the alps. 
The raeti are , when I read infomation once, 64% G2a

hmmm word association - Venotes & Vennonetes = Veneti ( Venetic) , in the Veneto.

Are the veneti really raeti  or* 

To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.

I really detest these modern theories using modern national borders for propaganda purposes which distort history.

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## Knovas

G2a was a very likely option, although I voted for another one. It's time to see if comes out more detailed information about him.

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## Taranis

> To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.


Sorry, no. We have been there before. The "Raeti" probably were not a homogenous group (the term "Raeti" is very likely to be an exonym!), and the "Raeti" language found in the so-called "Raetic" inscriptions was a language related with Etruscan. The Etruscans were not native to Europe. Whatever language Ötzi spoke, it was unrelated to any of the languages spoken there later.

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## zanipolo

> Sorry, no. We have been there before. The "Raeti" probably were not a homogenous group (the term "Raeti" is very likely to be an exonym!), and the "Raeti" language found in the so-called "Raetic" inscriptions was a language related with Etruscan. The Etruscans were not native to Europe. Whatever language Ötzi spoke, it was unrelated to any of the languages spoken there later.


As I stated before, the etruscans arrived around 800-900 BC , the raeti ( or whatever they where called then ) where already there in the alps, they spoke a language, it was not etruscan and I do not know what it was, ......I call it raeti because it was raeti lands in the bronze age.
If you can advise me on what was the true language at the time of Otzi, then we can move on. But he did not speak any kind of etruscan , and I am not saying that you said this.

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## Taranis

> As I stated before, the etruscans arrived around 800-900 BC , the raeti ( or whatever they where called then ) where already there in the alps, they spoke a language, it was not etruscan and I do not know what it was, ......I call it raeti because it was raeti lands in the bronze age.
> If you can advise me on what was the true language at the time of Otzi, then we can move on. But he did not speak any kind of etruscan , and I am not saying that you said this.


What I'm trying to say is that the "Raeti" are an artificial, heterogenous grouping:

- The Lepontii were a Celtic people.
- The Vindelici were inconsistely also listed as Raetians (by some authors) and they too were Celtic.
- Some of the tribes (Breuni, Genaunes) are considered Illyrians.

If you look at this, you can quickly get the question of who the "real" Raetians were. In any case I think that any of the languages spoken in the area in the 1st century BC were unrelated to whatever language Ötzi spoke 3000 years earlier.

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## Maciamo

Ötzi's Y-DNA and other ancient DNA results this year are all confirming several of my theories. I wrote 2 years ago that G2a came to Europe in several waves : 

- a first one with Neolithic goat and cattle herders from the Caucasus and Anatolia
- a second one with the diffusion of metallurgy. 
- a third one (G2a3b1a) came alongside R1b1b2a1 with the Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age

I wrote in February 2010 that G2a _was linked to the diffusion of goat and sheep herding in the Neolithic via the Cardium Pottery culture._ This was confirmed in May 2011 by Lacan et al. (Neolithic G2a in Treilles, France).

In the same thread in February 2010, I wrote that G2a3b1a (the most common subclade of G in Europe) came to Europe with R1b1b2a during the Bronze Age. So far, no R1b1b2a or G2a3b1a has been found in any Neolithic or Copper Age site, which also confirms this theory.

Ötzi confirms that *G2a was indeed linked to early metallurgy*, as I thought, but that the Copper Age cultures of Old Europe were not related to the latter wave of G2a3b1a and R1b1b2a. 

Ötzi's G2a4 is very rare in Europe nowadays, and his mtDNA K1ö is all but extinct. Other Neolithic mtDNA samples revealed a much higher prevalence of haplogroup N1a and X2 (Neolithic Germany and France) than in the modern population. Both of these haplogroups are now found especially around the Caucasus, where Y-haplogroup G2a is also the most prevalent. This confirms a *strong genetic discontinuity between Neolithic/Chalcolithic Europeans and modern Europeans*. So much is necessary to explain that R1b1b2a arrived quite late (Bronze Age) in Europe and replaced most of the older population.

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## Maciamo

> This is what I wrote on the 22 July 2011
> 
> [B]otzi is mtdna of K10 and his dna is as you said G2a. This is because he was found in the middle of the Raeti/Rhaeti tribes of Venostes and Vennonete who resided in the modern region of Veneto in the alps. 
> The raeti are , when I read infomation once, 64% G2a


I wouldn't try to link Ötzi to any modern population. Even if there still parts of the Alps with a high percentage of G2a, there is no evidence that most or even any of it is G2a*4*. If it is G2a3b1, then it has absolutely nothing to do with Ötzi. Being from a Danubian Copper Age culture, I expect Ötzi's descendants, if any, to be found in isolated mountainous areas close to the Danube (meaning in the _northern part of the Alps_ or in the Carpathians).

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## LeBrok

Thanks Sparkey, Maciamo and others, it was fun to investigate, guess and see there results coming. I wish we had more Otzis.

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## sparkey

> I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.


I guessed G in all three places.  :Grin: 

Is there any way to automate reputation points for the "winners" by the way, Maciamo? Otherwise I'm just going to give the winners +rep on some of my favorite posts of theirs once G2a4 is reconfirmed in an official release.

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## sparkey

> I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.


So to scientifically prove which genetic anthropology community has the biggest brains and greatest psychic powers, I tallied the number of correct and incorrect answers from DNA Forums and Forum Biodiversity as well. I was generous and gave it to all the people who said "I2 or G2" or similar. The results:

DNA Forums
Correct: 6 out of 20, or 30%
Incorrect answers:
E1b: 1
G1: 1
I1: 1
I2b-ADR: 1
J2: 1
L: 1
R1a: 1
R1b: 6
R2: 1

Forum Biodiversity:
Correct: 4 out of 13, or 31%
Incorrect answers:
G1: 1
G2a3: 1
I: 1
I1: 1
I2c: 1
R1b: 3
T: 1

The final rankings:
1. Eupedia, 52%
2. Forum Biodiversity, 31%
3. DNA Forums, 30%
4. Dienekes Blog, 18%

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## Maciamo

> I guessed G in all three places. 
> 
> Is there any way to automate reputation points for the "winners" by the way, Maciamo? Otherwise I'm just going to give the winners +rep on some of my favorite posts of theirs once G2a4 is reconfirmed in an official release.


There is no automatic way to give rep points for choosing the right answer at a poll. You will have to give rep points to each member one by one. I will do it too.

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## Angela

> I wouldn't try to link Ötzi to any modern population. Even if there still parts of the Alps with a high percentage of G2a, there is no evidence that most or even any of it is G2a*4*. If it is G2a3b1, then it has absolutely nothing to do with Ötzi. Being from a Danubian Copper Age culture, I expect Ötzi's descendants, if any, to be found in isolated mountainous areas close to the Danube (meaning in the _northern part of the Alps_ or in the Carpathians).


Well, according to the video announcing the y dna result, it seems they spent a good amount of time looking in the SudTirol, so perhaps they did find something, although given the rarity of G2a4 (at least so far) it is probably a long shot. In the current results, there seem to be a few British men, a family group in Baden-Wurttemberg, a few in Italy, and a few from Morocco, who may be Sephardis. None in eastern Europe or the Balkans, although I will grant that they are not highly tested areas. However, there does seem to be a Mediterranean look to it. The researcher specifically, for example, mentioned Sardinia.

Given that one of the first copper mines in Europe was in Liguria (an area high in G), Otzi's culture is connected to the Remedello culture, and the ore for his ax came from Tuscany, I hope they also tested in those areas.

As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.) 
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...e-mummy-oetzi/

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## zanipolo

> Well, according to the video announcing the y dna result, it seems they spent a good amount of time looking in the SudTirol, so perhaps they did find something, although given the rarity of G2a4 (at least so far) it is probably a long shot. In the current results, there seem to be a few British men, a family group in Baden-Wurttemberg, a few in Italy, and a few from Morocco, who may be Sephardis. None in eastern Europe or the Balkans, although I will grant that they are not highly tested areas. However, there does seem to be a Mediterranean look to it. The researcher specifically, for example, mentioned Sardinia.
> 
> Given that one of the first copper mines in Europe was in Liguria (an area high in G), Otzi's culture is connected to the Remedello culture, and the ore for his ax came from Tuscany, I hope they also tested in those areas.
> 
> As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.) 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...e-mummy-oetzi/


well, they could have done a dna on the Ladini people in the alps of Veneto ( which is very close to where otzi was found ) and found these Ladini have 75% of g2a

Sometimes, it makes you think what government involvements are there that prevents certain things being revealed!!

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## MarTyro

> As far as autosomal dna is concerned, I hope that they looked in the Passeiertal Valley in the Sud-Tirol. This man is, I think, a dead ringer for Otzi, except for the red hair. (That might come from the Bavarian populations that later moved into that valley.) 
> http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/82...Hulton-Archive


Thats indeed a good one! Maybe the Dutch artists had the same pic?!?  :Wink:

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## Elaishousse

otzi on haplogroup G2a branch L91

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## pinovski

I am Spanish, and my haplogroup is G, it is not very common here, I read that this was the same haplogroup as Otzi. I recently created a post about my DNA testing, you are all invited :)

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## Carlos

I was searching on another topic and found this information. Ötzi tattoos. I have been struck by parallel horizontal lines because because I started drawing with a pen in my own hand when I was a teenager, specifically, I usually paint two lines in parallel and sometimes I had also painted them on some slate. And one of my matches, a U.S.A. woman by mitochondrial DNA; we have in the friends section but we have never had, curious, the fact is that once on his facebook cover he had two parallel vertical stripes.

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## Salento

> I was searching on another topic and found this information. Ötzi tattoos. I have been struck by parallel horizontal lines because because I started drawing with a pen in my own hand when I was a teenager, specifically, I usually paint two lines in parallel and sometimes I had also painted them on some slate. And one of my matches, a U.S.A. woman by mitochondrial DNA; we have in the friends section but we have never had, curious, the fact is that once on his facebook cover he had two parallel vertical stripes.


Ötzi’s Tattoos were meant to be therapeutic, not decorative. I Doubt that he made them Himself. 
He must have gone to the Witch-Doctor  :Petrified: 

Many of his tattoos are located where there are signs of arthritis, old injuries, and holistic acupuncture points.

I saw it on TV, lol :) 
a similar link:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...man-180954035/

Q-Matching with Ötzi the Iceman:

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## Carlos

To *Salento*:




Largest segment = 7.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.5 cM (0.208 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

144753 SNPs used for this comparison.

42.470 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 14.833 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.035 cpu seconds.

Ver: Aug 17 2019 0019

The first time I put those lines on the side of my hand towards the body I was abstracted in a class, which is said daydreaming but I don't remember what; I think I remember that it was in English class, I took the pen and painted two parallel lines, then I continued doing it for a long time. I believe that it is an internal symbol or code that could mean the reaffirmation of the individual in front of the world or even in front of the universe, to be aware of himself in a world with day and night, with wild beasts and ostilities being aware of our own individuality in the face of all that challenging him while facing all of it. Perhaps two stripes is a man without children and with more stripes a man with responsibilities, children, family, tribe.

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## Salento

> To *Salento*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Largest segment = 7.5 cM
> 
> Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.5 cM (0.208 Pct)
> Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5
> ...


Ötzi would’ve been entertained by your analysis.

 :Thinking:  My Deep Thoughts are way Shallower than yours :)

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## Carlos



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## Salento

>

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## Carlos

Very good, but ...

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## Salento



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