# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics > Dodecad >  the West European component in the Dodecad project

## spongetaro

http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555

This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
What do you think?

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555
> 
> This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
> What do you think?


I think the shading is off. The colors do not correspond consistently to the recorded percentages.

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## Knovas

In my case for example the West European was quite low compared to the Spanish average, while the East European was higher than the others. For the moment I am happier with the Eurogenes since I saw results with many European clusters, so I am waiting for a Dodecad run with a minimum of 4 European clusters to get something more accurate.

PD: There was a Dodecad run with Sardinian, Basque, NW European and NE European. I wonder what I could get in this one, but it was made before I started joining the project, and Dienekes' told me he didn't plan to run more participants there.

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## Maciamo

The problem is just one of naming the cluster. It should be called North-West European or North European and not West European. By the way, I pointed out that this so-called "West European" cluster was generally higher than the East European one in North, Central and South Asia. I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b. Studies have confirmed that R1 people have a higher sperm count than I people, and therefore R1 lineages could easily replace I linages by having a slightly higher percentage of boys each generation. That's why autosomal DNA doesn't match haplogroups. We shouldn't be comparing R1b and R1a regions, but look at what haplogroups were there before the R1 lineages eclipsed them.

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## Knovas

Of course when you see other population results, it's easy to note that West European and East European clusters are linked to Northern Europe. In my opinion this is not the problem since we know what this means. The problem is just have one cluster for Southern Europe, when it's perfectly plausible to separate Southwest Europe and Southeast Europe.

This would be something similar, as I said, to the Sardinian and Basque component run, but a little bit more general, not anchored in two Isolated populations.

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## spongetaro

I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic 
feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.

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## spongetaro

an other explanation could be that the Q celtic population that peopled the islands during the late bronze age was completely northern european (netherland, north-west Germany) while other atlantic celts would have been mainly of Alpine origin

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## Knovas

I read somewhere that it's posible Neanderthals had usually red-hair. However, people of the British Islands made the Neanderthal test genes on Interpretome, and I don't remember high levels of Neanderthal genes in them. The highest score of a 23andme member I think was 26 of 89 genes; Northern European descent and mostly Scandinavian.

My score for example was 13/89, and it's slightly high than others for what I saw, but nothing inusual. 26 is VERY high.

Ancient Neanderthal admixture is another posibility, but I must admit it's very difficult to prove, and no correlation for the little I observed.

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## Maciamo

> I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic 
> feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.


I disagree with that. Red hair is not specific to the British Isles and is at least as common in countries like Norway or Belgium.

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## Maciamo

> I read somewhere that it's posible Neanderthals had usually red-hair. However, people of the British Islands made the Neanderthal test genes on Interpretome, and I don't remember high levels of Neanderthal genes in them. The highest score of a 23andme member I think was 26 of 89 genes; Northern European descent and mostly Scandinavian.
> 
> My score for example was 13/89, and it's slightly high than others for what I saw, but nothing inusual. 26 is VERY high.
> 
> Ancient Neanderthal admixture is another posibility, but I must admit it's very difficult to prove, and no correlation for the little I observed.


I also think that red hair could have come from Neanderthal. The question is where did the admixture happen and survive ? Was it in North-West Europe, or rather in North-East Europe ?

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## spongetaro

> I disagree with that. Red hair is not specific to the British Isles and is at least as common in countries like Norway or Belgium.


the countries you mention have all strong west european component which I think the origin of red hair

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## Knovas

Perhaps in the two places at the same time, it's not imposible they habited a vast territory in Northern Europe (note that all Europeans carry some Neanderthal genes, higher or less depending on the person). There's still a lot to investigate and, probaly, more Neanderthal genes to identify. Will be interesting to follow related reports.

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## Knovas

> the countries you mention have all strong west european component which I think the origin of red hair


Sweedish, Duth and Germans have also a lot of West European component. Red hair exist in them, like sure in Belgium or Norway but ¿do you really think it's very significant?

The problem of red hair is that it's always a minority everywhere, althought perhaps it's true that in the British Isles it's higher in average. What I mean is that the West European component cannot be the only explanation for this, I think there is something we don't know.

Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair, and the problem is that this genes are still unknown. ¿Why not?

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## spongetaro

> Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair, and the problem is that this genes are still unknown. ¿Why not?


 red hair is linked to the gene MC1R:




> Eighty percent of redheads have an MC1R gene variant,[5] and the prevalence of these alleles is highest in Scotland and Ireland. The alleles that code for red hair occur close to the alleles that affect skin color, so it seems that the phenotypic expression for lighter skin and red hair are interrelated.






> The problem of red hair is that it's always a minority everywhere


 Red haired people are a minority in both Ireland and Scotland but nearly half of Scottish people carry the MC1R gene




> *Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads, as 13 percent of the population has red hair and approximately 40 percent carries the recessive redhead gene.[8] Ireland has the second highest percentage; as many as 10 percent of the Irish population have red, auburn, or strawberry blond hair.[9] Red hair reaches frequencies of up to 10 percent in Wales.[10].*

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## spongetaro

> Just a few concrete Neanderthal alleles can be enough to generate red hair


MC1R might not have been responsible for red hair among Neanderthals




> A DNA study has concluded that some Neanderthals also had red hair, although the mutation responsible for this differs from that which causes red hair in modern humans.[31]

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## Knovas

According to this it seems the gene is not related to Neanderthals. However, 23andme uses a genotype to see the posibilities for having red hair (I don't know if it's the same indicated here) and they don't take the genotype as determinant as for example the gene for light eyes. But well, if Wikipedia is not wrong like other times, it's the best clue right now.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

I think I read on another forum that a particular area of West Asia has red hair frequencies higher than any European country.

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## spongetaro

> I think I read on another forum that a particular area of West Asia has red hair frequencies higher than any European country.



Red hair was common among Jewish Khazars (Caucasus, southern Russia) as well as in some Turkish tribes. That's interesting since Neanderthals have been found as far east as Uzbekistan and even Siberia.

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## spongetaro

> I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b.


it looks like European genetic (except for ydna) wasn't so much affected by the IE invasions since the main components in autosomal dna are pre-IE




> I pointed out [/URL]that this so-called "West European" cluster was generally higher than the East European one in North, Central and South Asia.


so I1,I2b or European mtdna went as far as south/northern Asia during Paleolithic times?

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Red hair was common among Jewish Khazars (Caucasus, southern Russia) as well as in some Turkish tribes. That's interesting since Neanderthals have been found as far east as Uzbekistan and even Siberia.


Interesting points. :Good Job:

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## Knovas

No red hair from Neanderthals in Europe, but posible in other places. Good spongetaro.

To my knowledge, ethnic Europeans have more Neanderthal genes. However, I mantain that it could be enough with a few concrete genes and, of course, there is not much (or there isn't...) information about Neanderthal genes on those populations, and the same could be said of other West Asians.

Some Ashkenazi Jews made the Interpretome test, but nothing relevant in them. Probably their samples are not useful for this.

PD: I was suposing there is not relevant red hair between Ashkenazis, basically because it's difficult to average them since they are spread for all places and have to many different appearences.

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## Carlitos

Due to the fact of which all the alive organisms we are related, it turns out to be easier to find kinships between species that them to deny. Between the man of neanderthal and the modern man, it is known that there exists a common ancestor of an antiquity of half a million years, but there have not contradicted itself categorically more recent genetic interferences (nevertheless, the empirical studies proliferate and seem to abound in the hypothesis of non-interference).

I believe that the question that closes the previous paragraph (do the targets have a genetic heredity neandertal that other races do not possess?) she does not remain completely answered, but yes we can affirm that, in case of having inherited genes of the neandertal, we can be sure that they are scarce, without decisive influence in the fenotipo and proper of a limited part of the human population.

Just in case, the homo scientiphicus, in most cases, of white race, has hurried to extoll recently the figure of the neandertal, his cranial capacity, his cultural habits, etc.

Possibly, the neandertales were not red-haired, but big variety would exist already between them; what yes is an interesting hypothesis is that the gene of the red hair is only possible in lineages that have crossed with neandertales. The current red-haired ones are usually provided well with chin and lack, mostly, this side proper vision of the extinct prehistoric race. If really he was the principal progeny of the man of neandertal, that would mean that the form of the skull and the face have evolved rapidly in congruity with the nutritive habits. Nevertheless, there exist other Europeans who are not red-haired and who yes present some of the impressive facial characters of the original Europeans. It is not necessary to discard that certain European current features are a repetition in the homo sapiens of the adaptations who was enduring the homo erectus of Hidelberg on having become an European, happening for the homo antecessor up to the neanderthalensis. Nevertheless, it has not even had so much time, not even his ways of life and resources to adapt itself to the climate are the same than in the prehistoric times. Necessarily, the features "neandertaloides" that we find are a direct heredity of those characters.

http://www.eumed.net/libros/2011a/91...neandertal.htm

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## Wilhelm

The labels of components are arbitrary, it could have been called Northwestern European, since it peaks in Irish/Norwegians. In the Eurogenes intra-european run they are two separate components, northern and western european, the first peaking in Scandinavians and the second in Pyreneans/Catalans.

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## Knovas

The Eurogenes Western European is an spurious cluster, note that there are only 4 indidviduals with 100% Western European, and the rest of people there is nobody who gets 50% of it. Of course the interpretation for the four individuals is an strong genetic Isolate in the Pyrenees, but this cluster is not informative for the rest of people, and neither tells so much about Northern and Southern proportions, although more or less can be infered. Only shows that there are 4 individuals very closer to each other, nothing else. 

Dodecad is not bad, in my opinion the problem is use only one cluster for Southern Europe (Mediterranean). 4 European clusters, East and West for the North and the South, would be enough to get something informative to see the origin of a population, and clarify the difference between Southern Europeans much more. Also there is the other problem in the averages, since I think populations recieve different results depending on the source, but this is less important.

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## Wilhelm

> http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=555
> 
> This "West European" component is really weird. In the map, Sweden appears more Western than France and Spain. Spain appears as "Western" as the Belarus.
> What do you think?


 The map is incorrect, because Spaniards have 42 % of West-European, while Belorussians have 28%. This map is more accurate :

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## oreo_cookie

> The map is incorrect, because Spaniards have 42 % of West-European, while Belorussians have 28%. This map is more accurate :



Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?

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## archaiocapilos

> Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?


What about the surprizing 5% in Mongolia and 9% in Siberia? I think that it should be named North-West Eurasian since it seems to correlate with exactly that area...otherwise 14% in NE Asia in comparison with 13% in Sicily and Greece don't make sense.

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## spongetaro

Finland more western than Portugal...

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## spongetaro

Scotland less western than England and Ireland, interesting. Knowing that the med component in Orcadians is fairly high and that Scots, Angles and viking invasions may have lower it, there is no doubt that Picts people also had a strong med component

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## Frank

> Finland more western than Portugal...


 It has already been said that Western includes also Northern euroepan, since it peaks in Scandinavians, and the european components are only West/East/Med

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## Frank

> Could the surprisingly higher scores in Pakistan, India, and Afghanistan of this Western European component (relative to the regions surrounding those countries that have much less) mean anything significant?


 It has probably to do with the Indo-Aryan and indo-euroepan invasions. That's why you also see a lot of R1a in those areas.

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## spongetaro

> It has already been said that Western includes also Northern euroepan, since it peaks in Scandinavians, and the european components are only West/East/Med


then why lithuanians have only 32% of it if it includes Northern European

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## Frank

> then why lithuanians have only 32% of it if it includes Northern European


 Because in this run they appear much more Eastern european, they have near 70% East Euro, it's actually where it peaks, in Lithuanian

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## MOESAN

> I wonder if there is a correlation between the high percentage of red haired people in the British islands and this west european component. In my opinion red hair is pre-celtic 
> feature in the British islands as it is unusual in other parts of western Europe.


_late answer indeed!

Coon thought that red hairs was linked to his "paleolithic" populations...
but: red hairs is linked to more than a locus on the genom

this said, the maximum of every kind of red hairs in the worldis in the Scotland Highlands (official: 11%, my observations: 8-9%)
as a whole Ireland come first 7,5% (8% Ulster) vs 6,5% for Scotland - Wales: 4,5% as England (but some parts of Western Wales: 6 or 7% - and Eastern England: only 2,5-3% (apart the industrial "celtized" districts!) -
I too think to a preceltic but lately celtized population of mesolithic stock - some spots of red hairs in Europe, isolated sometimes:
celtic speaking Brittany (old time!): 3-3,5% - french Flanders-Artois-Picardie: 3-3,5% but France as a whole: 1,4% - Walloon: 3% but Flanders: 1,8% - between Northern Hessen and Sachsen-Anhalt about 3-4%? but Germany as a whole: 1,8-2% - remote districts of Norway: 4% (but Norway as a whole: 1,7%) - some southern districts of Sweden (not the southernmost):4% to 5% (but Sweden as a whole: 3%) - in Switzerland: about 2,8-3% but where? I think better in"germanic" Schwyz... 
so a possible red hairs rich enough population or more numerous regional spots , drown after that by eastern Europe or Steppes populations not so rich (but look at the Mordvins???) - it is true that red hairs are seldom among baltic and finnic peoples and true Slavs despite their common enough fair haired people - the same for southern Europe populations so ???_

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## MOESAN

_do not link to tightly Y-DNA to autosomals even if statistically it could have been a link - on previous not so big populations drift could have done a little "mess" even if not so easily that believe someones -
other peoples said yet that a lot of autsosomals of Baltic People can be inherited from a female population (maybe close enough to a part of Finns mothers) - the 'definition' of these poolings of genes are maybe not precise enough yet and can be improved in the future -even precise it can be "arbitrary" ... - for scottish people do not forget that Scotland people was divided in a first time in very different ethnies - an eastern element in autosomals can be came there with Vikings, not?
I suppose that the "Western" or "North-Western" pool will be separated in more than a cluster, and that a lot of the genes envolved in these choices are of different even if partly akin ancient populations of Paleo- or Mesolithic origin -
ad for the question of Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze Age people movements, I remember that some movements eastwards-westwards seam having taken place in the Early Mésolithic even if there is no typical cultural material attached to them -_

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## MOESAN

> [--]I think that the explanation is that the "West European" component actually represents mostly the genes of Paleolithic I1 and I2b Northern Europeans, and that they inhabited all northern Europe from Ireland and Britain to Russia and Ukraine before being replaced by R1a and R1b. Studies have confirmed that R1 people have a higher sperm count than I people, and therefore R1 lineages could easily replace I linages by having a slightly higher percentage of boys each generation. That's why autosomal DNA doesn't match haplogroups. We shouldn't be comparing R1b and R1a regions, but look at what haplogroups were there before the R1 lineages eclipsed them.


 I 'm sorry for a so late post on this topic I would be glad knowing the exact impact of a more or less sperm count because at first sight I 'm not sure that a bit lower count of spermatozoids could diminish the number of children, males or females, when we known there are millions (until 200 millions sometimes) of spermatozoids in a "male coit package" ("ejaculation"???) - it 's not sure even that the difference of quality if minima could alter too much the performance: the better ones win the race, no?) - the females have a far more important roel in sexual reproduction I think, so? maybe am I a bit naive? read you again

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## King Niall

R1b is linked with the spread of Christianity not evil super aggresiveness or super sperm. If anything Pagan groups attacked early christian r1b populations. Red Hair is the evolutionary transition to Blonde. Hair does not turn from Black to Blonde overnight. It is gradual.

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## Knovas

If that's true, then red hair would be more common than blond...not the case at all. The gene for red hair it's pretty específic, we are dealing with another kind of mutation.

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## King Niall

"I' Haplotypes are related to J haplotypes thru IJ ? why don't J haplotypes have blonde hair?

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## Knovas

Haplogroups aren't informative concerning light or dark traits at present, it's difficult to know if genuine J's were light or dark haired. If there's little frequence of light hair among populations having the highest percents of J, it's mostly due to autosomal inheritance. We have thousands of ancestors, and Y-DNA does not reflect nothing but one.

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## MOESAN

> R1b is linked with the spread of Christianity not evil super aggresiveness or super sperm. If anything Pagan groups attacked early christian r1b populations. Red Hair is the evolutionary transition to Blonde. Hair does not turn from Black to Blonde overnight. It is gradual.



I agree with the evident remark of Knovas -
red hair HAS NOTHING IN COMMON with blond or fair hair: it is more a quality problem than a quantity of pigments one -

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## MOESAN

red hairs depend on more than a locus (mutated) - the 'blond' condition can only (maybe) permit a more evident expression of one or two mutates genes in the direction of 'red' - 
the present day distribution of red and reddish hairs (with the skin colour and presence of freckles) seams showing for me a north central and northwestern strate population in Europe, diffferent from the not-'red' southwestern one, and that have been covered in a lot of places, more or less according to the places, by one or several not-'red' populations came from East (steppic and finnic peoples? surely enough a mesolithic population if not paleolithic ?
the mutations could have occurred in different places but all the way have been kept in regions where previously they did not carry too much problemes for climatic adaptation ? (not too much sun...) - I would be glad if someone could tell me what are the blood groups of Mari and other finnic people of Russia where red hairs are common (even if blood groups is a very rough approach) - 

for the count of sperm I already answered the question: NO IMPACT for me on population

concerning Christianity, I do not see any reason to link R1b to it, not at all!!! Y-R1b monks or preasts mating as rabbits ?!?

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## MOESAN

sorry - when I speak of meso or paleolithic population, I speak about the red hairs rich one - not about the steppic or finnic people

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## MOESAN

I don't know if it could help:
a not too old survey about the HLA frequent groups among Basques, Madrid Spaniards and Alger Algerians showed :

4 groups common to Basques and Madrilenes : 1 only iberian, 1 atlantic, 1 central european, 1 found too in Sardinia and Alger ! (pan-west-mediterranean? mesolithical ?) -
1 group present only among Basques (mesolithical ? paleolithical?)
1 group present among Algerians and North of the Mediterranea, BUT almost absent from Basques and Madrilenes
1 group present among Algerians, Madrilenes and North of the Mediterranea, BUT absent from Basques -
we can conclude that Basques have a lot of autosomal genes shared with Western Central Europe (megalithic and celtic late cultures, but inherited from previous populations ?) as do some Spaniards + with Mediterranea – but they retained some peculiar genes of them... all that doesn't contradict some autosomals analysis speaking about 'atlantmed' pe 'mediterranean'+'N-W euroepan' , even if it lacks precision...

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## MOESAN

I put this post here bit oit could have been posted as well in threads about ancient DNA (Ötzi) or present day HGs (Y-G2) or autosomals, because all that specifical approachs concern the same questions... SO ... here!

here under, some relative %s concerning 'mediter', 'caucasian' and 'gedrosian':
the 3 first column concern absolute %s, the three late concern relative %s: 'mediter' / 'mediter'+'caucaisan', 'mediter' / 'mediter'+'gedrosian', 'caucasian' / 'caucasian'+'gedrosian'

autosomaux DODECAD 13
MEDIT
CAUCA
GEDRO

b:b+c
b: b+d
c: c+d




























Basques France
70,2
0,1
7,6

99,9
90,2
1,3

Ecosse Orcades
41,4
0,4
9,7

99,0
81,0
4,0

Suède
33,5
1,1
6,1

96,8
84,6
15,3

Norvège
36,0
1,2
6,4

96,8
84,9
15,8

Irlande
41,1
1,5
9,5

96,5
81,2
13,6

AFN Mozabites
4,2
0,2
0,4

95,5
91,3
33,3

Portugal
41,2
2,9
7,8

93,4
84,1
27,1

Grande-Bretagne
41,9
3,0
8,4

93,3
83,3
26,3

Finlande
15,3
1,5
0,3

91,1
98,1
83,3

Pays-Bas
39,7
5,1
8,1

88,6
83,1
38,6

Espagne
52,9
7,9
4,9

87,0
91,5
61,7

Allemagne S- Autriche
39,5
6,4
7,1

86,1
84,8
47,4

France 1
45,4
8,2
5,3

84,7
89,5
60,7

France 2
44,8
8,4
6,3

84,2
87,7
57,1

Italie Sardaigne
75,5
15,8
0,0

82,7
100,0
100,0

Allemagne
34,8
7,8
4,4

81,7
88,8
63,9

Indes Brahui
6,3
2,0
67,6

75,9
8,5
2,9

Lithuanie
17,3
6,6
0,2

72,4
98,9
97,1

Pologne
23,9
11,1
0,7

68,3
97,2
94,1

Italie N 2
45,7
21,3
2,6

68,2
94,6
89,1

Italie N 1
42,5
21,4
3,1

66,5
93,2
87,3

Russie
14,6
8,2
1,3

64,0
91,8
86,3

Biélo-Russie
18,8
10,6
0,3

63,9
98,4
97,2

Italie Toscane
40,0
28,3
2,5

58,6
94,1
91,9

Italie O
36,9
28,4
3,6

56,5
91,1
88,8

Italie C
36,6
30,9
2,8

54,2
92,9
91,7

Bulgarie
27,2
28,4
1,3

48,9
95,4
95,6

Italie S- Sicile
32,9
35,1
3,5

48,4
90,4
90,9

Italie Sicile
32,4
35,5
2,6

47,7
92,6
93,2

Juifs Askhenazes 2
29,4
34,0
2,0

46,4
93,6
94,4

Tchuvashes
8,2
9,6
3,5

46,1
70,1
73,3

Juifs Askhenazes 1
29,6
34,8
1,7

46,0
94,6
95,3

Italie S
32,2
38,2
2,1

45,7
93,9
94,8

Grèce
30,4
37,5
1,7

44,8
94,7
95,7

Balouchistan
4,7
6,0
63,3

43,9
6,9
8,7

Pakistan? Makrani
4,4
7,2
60,0

37,9
6,8
10,7

Chypre
23,7
48,7
3,1

32,7
88,4
94,0

Egypte
11,2
27,4
1,2

29,0
90,3
95,8

Bédouins
7,0
18,2
3,4

27,8
67,3
84,3

Pakistan Sindhi
2,4
6,4
49,4

27,3
4,6
11,5

Indes
1,6
4,3
38,9

27,1
4,0
10,0

Palestine
13,4
36,8
5,0

26,7
72,8
88,0

Turquie
15,6
45,7
9,5

25,4
62,2
82,8

Juifs Azerbaidjan
11,5
52,7
14,3

17,9
44,6
78,7

Amenie 1
11,9
56,7
12,5

17,3
48,8
81,9

Arménie 2
11,6
56,1
10,5

17,1
52,5
84,2

Kurdistan
7,9
42,3
25,5

15,7
23,7
62,4

Iran
7,2
40,5
25,9

15,1
21,8
61,0

Uygurs
2,0
12,5
15,2

13,8
11,6
45,1

Pakistan Pathans
1,6
13,9
42,6

10,3
3,6
24,6

Adygei Tcherkesses
2,1
58,8
9,7

3,4
17,8
85,8

Pakistan Burusho
0,1
10,5
41,8

0,9
0,2
20,1

Liban Druzes
16,1
48,4
6,2

25,0
72,2
88,6



you can see the western but also north-western general position of 'mediterranean' compared to the more south-eastern position of 'caucasian', and the fact that even in slavic lands (and more yet in baltic-finnic lands) 'mediter' is far more stronger than 'caucasian' compared to the situation in Italy, Bulgary and Greece without speak of the overwhelming domination of 'caucasian' in Caucasus and even if less, in Near-Eastern-Middle-Eastern countries - 
the 'gedrosian' presence in Germanic, Celtic and Basque countries was noticed yet by Spongetaro and others before.
We 'll have occasion to debate about that in future, sure!
good night!

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## zanipolo

I see the gedrosian ( eastern persian ) travelling north of the caspian and black seas and heading for british isles

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## MOESAN

> I see the gedrosian ( eastern persian ) travelling north of the caspian and black seas and heading for british isles


I totally agree with you on this point - 
when? with (a) tribe(s) of I-E speakers or just before? but which?

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