# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

## Hawk

If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.

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## Angela

> If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.
> 
> I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.


You may already have done this, but in case you haven't.

If you're speaking of sample 13313, this is what mta says are his closest modern populations:
1. Spanish_Extremadura (6.749)
2. Spanish_Murcia (6.887)
3. Spanish_Cataluna (6.957)
4. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (7.206)
5. Spanish_Andalucia (7.233)
6. Spanish_Valencia (7.494)
7. North_Italian (7.731)
8. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (7.798)

SZ1 :Bronze Age Hungary (I'm at 9.7)

1. Kosovar (7.704)
2. Albanian_Tosk (7.894)
3. Tuscan (8.468)
4. Bulgarian (9.955)
5. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)
6. North_Italian (10.36)
7. Greek (10.66)
8. Romanian (10.71)

Croatian (Bronze) 14311)
1. Portuguese (8.380)
2. Spanish_Murcia (8.547)
3. Spanish_Cataluna (8.557)
4. Spanish_Extremadura (9.096)
5. North_Italian (9.319)
6. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (9.484)
7. Spanish_Galicia (9.666)
8. Spanish_Valencia (10.79)

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## Aspurg

> If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.
> 
> I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.


 You have no idea how wrong you are. Firstly Iron Age Illyrian is more Northern shifted because she is Iapodian (I believe even by archaeological location), nothing to do with "Latins", who barely existed at the time and were not migrating to Illyrian areas. Iapodes have received additional Urnfield admixture in LBA/EIA. These Urnfield people would have been Bell-Beaker-like.

I actually think some linguistic evidence might point to Illyrian connection, but here's something about autosomal DNA. 

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: *10.8025*% / 10.80252316
83.8 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.2 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: *3.1523*% / 3.15229064
74.0 *SZ40*_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
26.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

Lets take your advice and remove the Slavic component from the Albanians. 
Modelling the Slavs as average of Sungir6 and AV2, assuming Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admix. (Slav-Sungir6.AV2,27.93,46.57,12.08,4.33,4.39,0.61,0.25, 0.00,2.08,0.99,0.29,0.48,0.00)

Here is N.Albanian K13 minus 25 % of Slavic 
Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav,19.60,8.30,25.49,12 .07,29.54,3.33,0.73,0.51,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.01,0.00

Who are SZ40 and SZ43?? 

SZ40 Langobard looks like a Romanized Thracian/Mysian, away from Illyrians. Female.

Distance to: *SZ40*_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
10.58235796 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
11.69874780 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.47761848 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
14.35825547 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
15.69379814 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.80639759 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
*18.97208739* I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
*20.30019212* I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
*21.48707751* I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


SZ19 is a Thracian, it's crazy how Thracian she is considering IA Thracian sample was more Southern shifted yet SZ19 is much much closer to Thracian than to Myceneans or anyone else. 
Distance to: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
*4.31142668 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp*
11.69874780 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
13.00880471 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
15.82648413 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
17.62164862 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
18.43425887 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
18.93289465 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
19.72673313 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
20.07776880 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_

SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
*3.62466550* I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
*7.45226140* I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
*7.49074763* I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_


Now where does our North Albanian without 25 % of Slavic cluster?
Distance to: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
*4.22202558 SZ40*_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
*8.96922516* I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
*10.94313483*  *SZ19*_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
11.17245273 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
12.00272469 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
12.55558043 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.14445113 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
15.56958252 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc
*18.34741399* I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
*18.55283536* I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
*20.75844407* I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

Scy192 from Moldova from 300 BC is also way closer to a proto-Albanian candidate than Illyrians:
Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
*3.16608591*  MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
13.47761848 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
13.96434030 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
14.32547032 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.12145465 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
16.63311456 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
16.64757340 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
18.43425887 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
24.19005167 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

Scy197 is V13+, Somebody added wrong dates for these samples.
Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
*6.63604551*  scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
*8.98541040* MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
11.51131183 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
12.16415225 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
13.37844535 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
14.55909338 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
14.93957831 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
15.05223239 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.20738103 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp


These "Scythians" are surely *100 % Getae*, look at their distance to Early IA Thraco-Cimmerian from the similar area. Superficial partial similarity to proto-Illyrians is due to more Steppe admixture, but in their case it is not Bell Beaker derived like in Illyrians, rather Yamnaya.

So having N.Albanians without the 25 % of Slavic autosomal makes them *Thracians.* And Albanians (this sample for sure) *cannot be modelled* as Illyrian + little Slavic because the distances are too great. 

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: *13.0927%* / 13.09274359
86.0 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
14.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: *13.0355%* / 13.03550408
88.0 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: *14.8717%* / 14.87173063
88.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

You see these combinations with Illyrians don't work with only 12-14 % of Slavic admixture!!

ofc Albanians have some Slavic autosomal influence, they have more Baltic in K13 than any Paleo-Balkan population. And way more than Illyrians.

Well we see there were a bunch of romanized Thracians among the Szolad samples, likely heavy with E-V13. So looking at these results it seems some of these V13's positioned in Illyrian areas today might actually be Romans of Thracian origins. I think it is quite possible even that Illyrians had no more than 5-10 % of V13, and were like 50 % J-L283 and completely opposite with the Thracians (including Northern Thracians/Dacians/Getae). Albanians do have significant Y-DNA Illyrian ancestry but it looks like they have heavy Thracian autosomal admixture.

SZ1 quoted by Angela (And BA date should be a mistake) has some Germanic admixture in the study. And indeed
Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
Distance: 6.6138% / 6.61379823
88.6	Albanian_Kosovo
11.4	German_West

Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
Distance: 6.4739% / 6.47391514
68.2	SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
31.8	SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

SZ12 is a Germanic proper sample.

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## Aspurg

Btw. here's something that works for North Albanian samples (assuming 25 % of Slavic), with Illyrians being a factor. Getae_Thracian is a 50-50 mix of I5769 Thracian and MJ12 Thraco-Cimmerian. Mycenaeans must be introduced for this model. Getae is 1/3 MJ12, Scy197 and Scy192
Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192,19.47,15.97,25.55,11.98,2 1.45,2.86,0.18,0.00,1.37,0.73,0.44,0.00,0.00


Target: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
Distance: *3.3832*% / 3.38317130
48.8	I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
36.2	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
15.0	Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192




Target: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
Distance: *3.4720*% / 3.47197076
38.6	I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
35.4	Getae_Thracian
26.0	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp

This I5769-MJ12 mix comes out as close
Distance to:	Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
4.22202558	SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
5.42514516	Getae_Thracian
11.28077125	Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192
15.71476058	I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
18.34741399	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
18.55283536	I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp


There are some other Albanian samples, one might try reducing Slavic, and adding some Germanic.

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## Hawk

> You have no idea how wrong you are. Firstly Iron Age Illyrian is more Northern shifted because she is Iapodian (I believe even by archaeological location), nothing to do with "Latins", who barely existed at the time and were not migrating to Illyrian areas. Iapodes have received additional Urnfield admixture in LBA/EIA. These Urnfield people would have been Bell-Beaker-like.
> 
> I actually think some linguistic evidence might point to Illyrian connection, but here's something about autosomal DNA. 
> 
> Target: Albanian_north_Albania
> Distance: *10.8025*% / 10.80252316
> 83.8 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
> 16.2 Slav-Sungir6.AV2
> 
> ...


lol, no one will read your shitty long posts. You have no idea about the calculator effects. Your mental model in your head is extreme hatred toward Albanians, and refuse anything they have a say regarding the ancient history. After the Caucasus theory of Serbs got burned, then they switched to Thracian and now Dacian. It's typical of you.

I have created models in G25 regarding those Scythian samples and Peloponessians are way closer to them than i am. Somewhat tricky to point, these calculators are quite limited. They work by admixture proportions.

Here is a model:

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## Aspurg

> lol, no one will read your shitty long posts. You have no idea about the calculator effects. Your mental model in your head is extreme hatred toward Albanians, and refuse anything they have a say regarding the ancient history.


 Why would I have "extreme hatred" towards Albanians or such "love" towards Serbs? Well you obviously read it, I'll make it longer next time. Besides much of it was calc data so just copy paste.  :Laughing:  I surely did 100 times more to reconstruct the paths of some Albanian Y-DNA lineages than you. (and ofc you did nothing)




> After the Caucasus theory of Serbs got burned, then they switched to Thracian and now Dacian. It's typical of you.


 Where did I promote any Caucasus theory ever? 




> I have created models in G25 regarding those Scythian samples and Peloponessians are way closer to them than i am. Somewhat tricky to point, these calculators are quite limited. They work by admixture proportions.
> 
> Here is a model:


 Your model has you as having 1/4 of Germanic? Germanic influence seems far lower than Slavic autosomally around the Balkans. Who is "Iron age Greek"? That Cretan low coverage "Dorian" sample?? I don't think that sample is reliable. Greeks are heavily admixed, with heavy Slavic admixture in areas such as Macedonia, also in areas with Albanian and Vlach admixture such as Peloponessus for Albanian and Thessaly for the Vlach. Only some islander Greeks are some indication. 

So you are closer to Illyrian in G25, what about Iberians?  :Grin:

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## Hawk

Say it again, you did what? You did nothing lol. 

Peloponessian samples are very Southern Balkans, and have no Albanian or Vlach ancestry.

The Greek Iron Age is from Empuries2, they were probably with origin from Hellenic Anatolian coast. And no, the model was not to prove that i am very close to Dalmatians which i am not in comparison with North Italians, one more thing to note is those samples don't have Anatolian_Tepecik Ciftlig which Albanians and Greeks have it which might be a LBA/IA influence from Anatolia considering that Myceneans didn't have it.

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## Hawk

btw, Northern Italians are the closest to Dalmatians not Spaniards. This makes sense, not the one modelling Mexicans/Urugyans as Illyrian + Mayan lol.















And, this is mine:

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## Aspurg

> Say it again, you did what? You did nothing lol.


 Check the J-L283 topic. I identified the culture where the found was made and also I was the one instrumental when looking about cultural relatives of that find, how did the hg expand etc. You on the other hand were saying how J-L283 is only found in Ghegs, and "not so Illyrian". Well obviously you are bit of jelly.





> Peloponessian samples are very Southern Balkans, and have no Albanian or Vlach ancestry.


 Not as Southern as Iron Age Greeks, still heavy Slavic influence and Arvanite it seems as well.




> The Greek Iron Age is from Empuries2, they were probably with origin from Hellenic Anatolian coast. And no, the model was not to prove that i am very close to Dalmatians which i am not in comparison with North Italians, one more thing to note is those samples don't have Anatolian_Tepecik Ciftlig which Albanians and Greeks have it which might be a LBA/IA influence from Anatolia considering that Myceneans didn't have it.


 I see, looks very Greek, namely looks Mycenaean + something Northern Balkan which arrived in Dorian invasions. Which is when most of E-V13 arrived to the Greece. Unlike your idiotic claim that our hg is "through and through Southern Balkan" that is some Pelasgian slaves. No E-V13 is native to Greece or Southern Albania. They expanded to those areas. 

The ancestor of all modern E-V13 practiced Kurgan burial, deal with it, anybody denying that is unworthy to be a E-V13.

Progon being Progon, :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Anatolian Neolithic Ciftlig is an indication of LBA/IA ancestry/influence, Anatolian Ciftlig was an ancestor of EEF's!!! And by the EBA, BMA, IA Anatolian autosomal profile had completely altered. All of Paleo-Balkanites (and almost all Europeans) had EEF ancestry, including Dalmatians. They don't have to cluster in any way with Ciftlig, but rather Balkan EEF's and they do have strong Dalmatian EEF element which is expected. 

Distance to: *I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
**11.20190609* Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp

Distance to: *MA2198_Anatolia_IA.SG_2900_ybp*
*39.12042178* Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp

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## Dianatomia

> If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.
> 
> I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.


If you mix the Bronze Age Dalmatian with a Mycenaean, then you have something closer to Albanians and Greeks. The only difference is that Albanians and Greeks will have some Slavic admixture. Removing the Slavic admixture from Albanians does not pull them closer to the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Rather the opposite. Because the Albanians will be closer to Bronze Age Greeks rather than the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Hence I suspect that there were migrations in the Balkans during the Iron Age. And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East. 

l3vQ8Wu.jpg

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## Hawk

> Check the J-L283 topic. I identified the culture where the found was made and also I was the one instrumental when looking about cultural relatives of that find, how did the hg expand etc. You on the other hand were saying how J-L283 is only found in Ghegs, and "not so Illyrian". Well obviously you are bit of jelly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not as Southern as Iron Age Greeks, still heavy Slavic influence and Arvanite it seems as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have some serious issues, Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik is an Anatolian Neolithic with Eastern affinities, like CHG/Levant. North Italians, Spaniards, Myceneans, Dalmatians lack it. Greeks, South Italians and Albanians to some degree have more of it. You shouldn't take them literally as you do because you are dull  :Laughing: , it might be some Anatolian influence.

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## Hawk

> If you mix the Bronze Age Dalmatian with a Mycenaean, then you have something closer to Albanians and Greeks. The only difference is that Albanians and Greeks will have some Slavic admixture. Removing the Slavic admixture from Albanians does not pull them closer to the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Rather the opposite. Because the Albanians will be closer to Bronze Age Greeks rather than the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Hence I suspect that there were migrations in the Balkans during the Iron Age. And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East. 
> 
> l3vQ8Wu.jpg


Fair enough, it makes sense.

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## Aspurg

> You have some serious issues, Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik is an Anatolian Neolithic with Eastern affinities, like CHG/Levant. North Italians, Spaniards, Myceneans, Dalmatians lack it. Greeks, South Italians and Albanians to some degree have more of it. You shouldn't take them literally as you do because you are dull , it might be some Anatolian influence.


 Dude, there was no Tepecik_Ciftlik ancestry in existence in the entire Anatolia in Iron Age. They were all looong diluted with CHG and other ancestries. How can ancestry which does not exist anymore arrive from Anatolia in Iron Age???? If it does then much more of CHG and the rest must have arrived too. 

Tepecik is completely irrelevant to any European LBA/IA population. It acquired some Eastern affinity after the separation with the proto-EEF's. 

It is though likely there was some Anatolian ancestry, but in the form of Imperial Roman legionaries, settlers etc. If Albanians, Greeks, South Italians have it it is due to Imperial Roman and Byzantine Anatolian influence.

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## Aspurg

> And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East.


 There was some Greek influence in the N.Balkans, but generally in LBA/EIA there was massive migration to the South coinciding with the Mycenaean fall. You forget that the Dalmatian Iron Age sample is even more Northern than the MBA samples. This is in line with proven Urnfield migrations from Central Europe in LBA/IE which caused the Mycenaean fall. I already proposed the main difference: Illyrians were Bell Beaker inspired, while the entire Thracian and Greek world was Yamnaya inspired regarding their IE element, with Srubnaya-like influence. 

The Bell Beaker - Yamnaya cline is the basis of difference between Illyrian and Thraco-Greek groups. The other one is Neolithic, but the differences between Neolithic elements were generally smaller than those between BB and Yamnaya.

Mycenaeans were essentially Minoans with small Yamnaya influence.
Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp



Minoans were mostly Greek Neolithics with Kura Araxes influence which brought vast majority of Greek J2a. Unlike in autosomal DNA though, J2a overwhelmed the G2a.
Target: I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
Distance: *2.1728%* / 2.17275655
83.8 I3708_Greece_Peloponnese_N_6550_ybp
16.2 ARM003_Kaps_Kura_Araxes_5148_years_old_G2b_K3_


IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
Target: EmpI8215
Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


Target: EmpI8215
Distance: 5.8597% / 5.85965700
80.8 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
19.2 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.

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## Dianatomia

> . 
> 
> It is though likely there was some Anatolian ancestry, but in the form of Imperial Roman legionaries, settlers etc. If Albanians, Greeks, South Italians have it it is due to Imperial Roman and Byzantine Anatolian influence.


It could also be that Sea peoples had Anatolian influence. And/or since Greeks settled vastly on both side of the Aegean there was circulation between of people in the Greek world (Western Anatolia and Greece) since the Iron Age into the Classical Age and Roman/Byzantine Age. Albanians seem to be connected closer to the Greeks rather than the BA Illyrians.

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## Hawk

> It could also be that Sea peoples had Anatolian influence.


IMO, Sea People were a confederation among Myceneans, some other Southern European groups allied with Myceneans and West Anatolians. Trojan war might be the end-result of the Sea Peoples turning their swords against each other.

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## Angela

@Aspurg,

"SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
*3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

*Fwiw, SZ43 is my closest match on mytrueancestry:

1. Central Roman (590 AD) *..... 3.604* - SZ43 - 
Top 99 % match vs all users

Their estimate of the ancestry is:
1. Tuscan (5.029)
2. North_Italian (8.337)
3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
4. Kosovar (9.972)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
7. Greek (11.71)
8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)


This is how he's defined by Eurogenes K13.
Distance to:
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp

2.62575703
Liguria

3.03894719
Emilia

4.22659437
Tuscany

4.70964967
Lombardy

5.97690555
Veneto

6.10092616
Tuscan

6.29661814
Piedmont

6.76625450
Romagna

7.13887946
Umbria

7.59609110
FrenchCorsica

8.13766551
Lazio

8.31645357
Marche

8.40452259
Friuli-VG

9.23770534
Swiss-Italian

9.48964699
Trentino

9.74243296
Swiss_Italian

11.88159922
Greek_Western-Thrace

12.35136835
Spanish_Extremadura

12.53068633
Portuguese

12.56161614
Albanian_Kosovo

12.60631191
Greek_Central-Macedonia

12.81659861
Albanian_north_Albania

12.89158253
Spanish_Andalucia

13.06767003
Vlach_Central-Macedonia

13.16254530
Kosovo_Albanian



I have ancestry from Liguria, Emilia and Toscana

Northern Italians and Tuscans are not all Illyrians or Pannonians. :)

Szolad is in an area which was an island of Romanized people long after other areas were overrun, whose people kept their culture, their Romance language etc. I have no idea if they were "locals" or displaced people from other parts of Europe or even Italy itself. At one point the Byzantines retook it, which would explain some of the more Southern Italian/Greek and Greek Islander like people. 

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

"The Romanic population from Pannonia created the _Keszthely culture_ that evolved mainly during the 6th-7th centuries. Its artifacts were made in the workshops of Roman origin located mainly in the fortified settlements of Keszthely-Fenékpuszta and Sopianae (modern Pécs)."

"By the end of the 6th century, the Romanized populace was mainly buried in the row cemeteries that were newly laid out in the area of the late Roman fortresses of Keszthely (Castellum) and Pécs (Sopianae) (southwestern Hungary). During the period of Avar rule, Romanized and Byzantine people arrived from the Balkans, and they helped develop a community of skilled artisans. These communities, probably Christian, preserved or renewed their artistic relations with the Romanized population of the Mediterranean."

"The name _Keszthely_ (IPA[ˈkɛst.hɛj]) could be related to the Istriot–Venetian_castei_, which means "castle", and is probably an original word of the Pannonian Romance language, according to the Austrian linguist Julius Pokorny.[2"
S1. Central Roman (590 AD) *..... 3.604* - SZ43 - 
Top 99 % match vs all users

----------


## Dema

> If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian



I dont think it has anything with Slavic admixture, i believe Albanians are far from Bronze Age Dalmatian because he was still not real Illyrian. He was more of a proto-IE. Therefore that is why he is so much northeast shifted. Towards Ukraine, etc.. These Bronze Age proto-IEs later mixed with natives, and especially around Mediterranean Sea where then later Illyrian cluster was made. 

Illyrians should be mix of what you call Pelasgians (older populations) and Bronze Age arriving Indo-Europeans. The earliest records of Illyrian tribes go around eight century BCE, therefore i believe Illyrians from around 800 BCE to 400 BCE will be probably much different from Dalmatian Bronze Age sample and much more close to Romans for example, therefore also more close to Albanians.


My closest ancient population are Romans at GD 8, and if we would have Illyrians aDNA from same period they would be probably very close to Albanians also.

----------


## Dianatomia

> There was some Greek influence in the N.Balkans, but generally in LBA/EIA there was massive migration to the South coinciding with the Mycenaean fall. You forget that the Dalmatian Iron Age sample is even more Northern than the MBA samples. This is in line with proven Urnfield migrations from Central Europe in LBA/IE which caused the Mycenaean fall. I already proposed the main difference: Illyrians were Bell Beaker inspired, while the entire Thracian and Greek world was Yamnaya inspired regarding their IE element, with Srubnaya-like influence. 
> 
> The Bell Beaker - Yamnaya cline is the basis of difference between Illyrian and Thraco-Greek groups. The other one is Neolithic, but the differences between Neolithic elements were generally smaller than those between BB and Yamnaya.
> 
> Mycenaeans were essentially Minoans with small Yamnaya influence.
> Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
> Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
> 88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
> 11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp
> ...


Interesting, this gives some evidence that post-Bronze Age Greeks were more paleo-Balkan admixed.

----------


## Dianatomia

> Illyrians should be mix of what you call Pelasgians (older populations) and Bronze Age arriving Indo-Europeans. The earliest records of Illyrian tribes go around eight century BCE, therefore i believe Illyrians from around 800 BCE to 400 BCE will be probably much different from Dalmatian Bronze Age sample and much more close to Romans for example, therefore also more close to Albanians.


This could be true for the South Illyrians. But in order to hypothesize that Illyrians in Dalmatia later mixed with Pelasgians, we would first have to prove that Pelasgians were inhabiting that area. 

It is more likely that Pelasgian peoples were inhabiting the SouthBalkans. Most of them were Hellenized by proto-Hellenes and Dorians, while
others were influenced linguistically by the Illyrians. These resulted to the ancestors of the Albanians. The North Illyrians who were different biologically from Albanians/Greeks/Thracians were eventually Sclavinized. Also, the Romans massacred many of them.

----------


## ihype02

Dalmatians being essentially like north Italians was my prediction and I was right. Same for Scythians. 

My inaccurate predictions: 
Iron age Hellenes were somewhat different from Myceneans genetically. 
Native Sicilians were *very* similar to ancient Greeks.

Some other predicitions: 
Dacians will cluster with mainland Greeks and Albanians.
Central Illyrians will be like somewhat like Tuscans but more southwestern.

----------


## Dema

> This could be true for the South Illyrians. But in order to hypothesize that Illyrians in Dalmatia later mixed with Pelasgians, we would first have to prove that Pelasgians were inhabiting that area. 
> 
> It is more likely that Pelasgian peoples were inhabiting the SouthBalkans. Most of them were Hellenized by proto-Hellenes and Dorians, while
> others were influenced linguistically by the Illyrians. These resulted to the ancestors of the Albanians. The North Illyrians who were different biologically from Albanians/Greeks/Thracians were eventually Sclavinized. Also, the Romans massacred many of them.



Yeah i agree with everything you said just i used term Pelasgian as label to older pre-IE population. Not necessarily pelasgians from Greece and Albania who are real Pelasgians actually.
Pelasgian is just term Greeks used to describe natives and pre-Greek populations. I used same term for pre-Illyrian populations.

In Albanian wikipedia, even Phoenicians are described as one of Pelasgian population, https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenikasit

----------


## ihype02

> IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
> Target: EmpI8215
> Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
> 55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
> 44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
> 
> 
> It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.


Kid, Thracians are only two hairs away from the Myceanean cluster in a figurative sense, you can model a modern Thessalian as a 60% Thessalian and 40% Gheg Albanian (Gheg Albanians are a little bit more northwestern shifted) but the model will still be Thessalian like. It would only make a difference if that 40% was Dalmatian like, which is not. 

The Dorians were most likely nearly identical with Myceanaeans by the time they reached Peloponnese at least their contribution most likely did make a small difference which are similar as micro-regional differences (eg. east - west Sicilian), but the the cluster as whole is the same. 

This model just shows that an over 40% population replacement might have happend and still no significant difference in the genetics, which can lead to other topics.

----------


## Dema

Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

Roman (7.945)
Gaul + Roman (8.253)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
Gallo-Roman (12.57)
Gaul (15.27)
Illyrian (16.14)
Roman Hispania (16.74)

I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me. 

"Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.

----------


## Hawk

> Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.
> 
> That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.
> 
> Roman (7.945)
> Gaul + Roman (8.253)
> Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
> Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
> Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
> ...


The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians. Here are the results of a G25 calculator, which is used a lot.

Target: Progon_scaled
Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452

49.2
TUR_Barcin_N



38.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



11.8
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



1.0
WH




Target: HRV_EBA
Distance: 2.8970% / 0.02897046

50.6
TUR_Barcin_N



31.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



9.0
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



4.4
WHG



3.6
GEO_CHG



0.8
MAR_EN



Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 3.8417% / 0.03841726

61.2
TUR_Barcin_N



34.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



4.0
WHG




Target: HRV_MBA
Distance: 2.4450% / 0.02444964

60.4
TUR_Barcin_N



33.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



6.4
WHG



Greek colonizer from Anatolian coasts

Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494530

40.8
TUR_Barcin_N



39.2
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



13.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



6.6
GEO_CHG



0.4
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775159

64.2
TUR_Barcin_N



12.2
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



11.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



6.4
GEO_CHG



5.2
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



0.4
MAR_EN



0.4
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156

36.8
TUR_Barcin_N



35.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



25.4
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



2.2
WHG



0.6
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019890

37.2
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



35.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



26.0
TUR_Barcin_N



1.6
WHG



Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.7650% / 0.01764966

36.8
TUR_Barcin_N



30.4
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



26.8
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



4.0
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



1.4
Levant_PPNB



0.4
WHG



0.2
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.5042% / 0.01504228

36.6
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



29.6
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



25.2
TUR_Barcin_N



4.8
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N



3.6
Levant_PPNB



0.2
GEO_CHG



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.3886% / 0.02388601

36.2
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



32.0
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



28.4
TUR_Barcin_N



2.4
WHG



1.0
Levant_PPNB



Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.0771% / 0.03077084

39.8
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



31.2
TUR_Barcin_N



22.6
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



5.8
WHG



0.6
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

----------


## blevins13

> @Aspurg,
> 
> "SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
> Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
> *3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
> 7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
> 7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
> 13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
> 13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
> ...


This SZ43 is one of my top matches ....how you come to conclusion that is Illyricani?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Dema

> The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians.


These calculators can confuse you with their labels of clusters. Mediterranean is much more then what these calculators show you. Geographically Mediterranean is everything in Mediterranean Sea and its shores. 

This 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample had significant steppe percentage and typical steppe mtDNA, therefore most likely too fresh and missing some kind of Mediterranean component (not necessarily what your calculator shows as Mediterranean) to be considered as Illyrians as we know them. Also year 1600 BCE is too early to consider any Illyrian population as they probably developed a bit later. 

The only reason why he is so far away is because he is from 1600 BCE and yet fresh IE arrival.

Albanians plot close with Greeks and Italians while this 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is so far away because he is not yet mixed into a way which later made Greeks, Italics, and Illyrians.
Albanians plot way more south then this sample does, and its obvious that Albanian genetics shifted from Steppe to Mediterranean-Balkan.

When we get Illyrians from 500 CE they will be much more consolidated in Mediterranean Sea and will be for sure more closer to Albanians. 

There is no reason for Albanians to have Romans at 8 and Illyrians at 14, since both Romans and Illyrians were very similar.

I repeat Romans are at GD 8 because they are 500 AD samples and yet consolidated true Mediterranean Italic Romans, while 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is fresh arrival from steppe and therefore not yet consolidated into what we will later know as Illyrians and that is why he is at GD 14.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Can someone please explain the difference between Anatolia Barcin N and Tepecik Ciftlik N, and in terms of westward migration to the Balkans? Thanks.

----------


## ihype02

How much have the Slavic migration changed the genetic map of the Eastern Europe, even more than I predicted in some places.

----------


## Aspurg

When looking for matches of any sample, especially Ancient sample you need to be looking at the most likely candidates for representing his makeup. For Dalmatian proto-Illyrians you should most definitely not be looking at those who are distant geographically (except for new comers like IE's for ex). If possible you need samples which if possible immediately precede the aDNA sample chronologically and are situated in the same geographical area.

So let us see what are these Dalmatians. Logically their Neolithic element should related to EEF's which lived in Dalmatia and indeed this is where we get best matches. Lets try random Bulgarian EEF and Yamnaya, works well? 
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: *12.2366*% / 12.23664441
78.6 I1297_Bulgaria_MP_N_7817_ybp
21.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

Nope.
Look at this now: 
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: *3.4330%* / 3.43296136
*59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp*
*40.2* *I3947_Croatia_Cardial*_N_7836_ybp



Let's try for diversity second Dalmatian Cardial
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: *3.4715*% / 3.47149623
61.2 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
38.8 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp

Works great.

More BB's

Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 5.4849% / 5.48492039
61.0 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.0 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 6.4420% / 6.44201259
63.8 E09569_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4223_ybp
36.2 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Another Dalmatian Cardial EEF 
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 4.9936% / 4.99357642
60.6 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.4 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp

Let's replace BB with Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: *15.4353*% / 15.43531388
51.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
49.0 I0357_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_4952_ybp



maybe this was one off, lets try another Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: *17.1371*% / 17.13712291
52.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
48.0 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


It doesn't work with Yamnaya, why? Because of huge CHG in Yamnaya which Dalmatian MBA lacks. 

So problem solved, you don't have to speculate about the ancestry of MBA Dalmatian that much at all. It was not some abstract "IE" it was approx 60 % German Bell Beaker + 40 % Dalmatian EEF, with whom they mixed in those centuries they have been there. The culture of the Dalmatian most likely is connected to intrusion of Ljubljana culture people. These were heavily admixed with BB's. With this J2b find in Hungary it might have arrived from the East but still apparently in formation of Ljubljana culture Vucedol and BB met, and some said BB's overwhelmed Vucedol people. Though it's possible some BB like affinities where there too in Maros culture.

German Bell Beakers themselves were already with some Central Euro EEF admixture so they were not purely Steppe. Let's see what this ideal BB is
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: 10.9657% / 10.96565604
81.6 I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
18.4 I0046_Germany_LBK_EN_7051_ybp

Trying German LBK EEF with German CW, not so ideal..


Try Remedello.. Much better
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: *5.4389%* / 5.43890177
*77.0* I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
*23.0*  RISE487_Remedello_di_Sotto_Italy_4557_years_M_I_CT S6231_H2c1_

Interestingly some Remedello elements were spotted in genesis of Ljubljana culture, and here we see these N.Italian Remedello samples seem like a good match for BB's.

So this BB element in Dalmatian was predominately IE/Steppe (CW derived), and CW were similar to Srubnaya where for example the mtdna of Dalmatian was found, my own I1a1. Though in my case surviving I1a1 do not seem of Balkan origin. 

What was Iron Age Croat that is Iapodian
Target: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
Distance: 4.5108% / 4.51080673
*89.8* I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
*10.2*  I0112_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4250_ybp

Just MBA Dalmatian (proto-Delmatae) with little bit of BB-like. Likely Urnfield LBA influence which was attested in them. This EIA sample might be a good fit for *Venetian-Liburnian* group which is not considered Illyrian anymore. This group had a heavy Urnfield influence. As did Pannonian group. But it seems in Liburnian group Urnfield dominated and imposed their language, whereas in Pannonian group they strongly influenced Illyrian language but they didn't replace it.

And who is closest to this EIA sample? Venetians.
Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
*5.43453770 Veneto*
5.56891372 Piedmont
6.91223553 Friuli-VG
7.23040801 Liguria

As far as these Illyrians, that is the entire Delmato-Pannonian group is concerned I think no way were they at any point during their existence "more Southern" genetically. Southern Illyrians might have had significant southern admixture. But I believe these were as these samples show. You basically see in 800 years the only difference was this slight Central European Urnfield intrusion, very likely no mixing with additional "Southerners". Practically genetic continuity in 800 years. This already 700 BC and Iapodian is more NW than MBA Dalmatians. They were more likely to be like him in 400 BC..

So MBA was dominated by J-L283. Urnfield brought likely some R-L51 clades we found today in the area, with the likely addition of some E-V13 clades (might argue for some CTS9320 and L241 primarily).

----------


## Aspurg

> @Aspurg,
> 
> "SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
> Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
> *3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
> 7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
> 7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
> 13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
> 13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
> ...




Interesting that this is your first match. Yes I know of Kestzthely culture. Why do I think he might be to a degree locally derived? 

Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: 3.5275% / 3.52748613
62.8 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
37.2 R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: *1.1648*% / 1.16478587
74.4 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
23.2 R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
2.4 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp

With Late Antiquity Roman
Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: *1.1010%* / 1.10104574
75.8 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
24.2 R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

His hg doesn't seem Pannonian/Illyrian. It seems he had definitely some Italian ancestry going by Lazio samples. 

What Progon posted, involving Barcin, WHG is just for curiosity's sake, it has no relevance. Because you can see there Dalmatians have some WHG, this is due to Remedello admixture in BB component. His Tepecik swallows some portions of other admixtures. CWC element also was not "Yamnaya" but it's own specific mixture. It is plain that Dalmatian samples have nothing to do with Yamnaya genetically but are rather CW derived. Due to recent finds we know what these models show: that BB was ultimately CW derived..

----------


## Aspurg

> Kid, Thracians are only two hairs away from the Myceanean cluster in a figurative sense, you can model a modern Thessalian as a 60% Thessalian and 40% Gheg Albanian (Gheg Albanians are a little bit more northwestern shifted) but the model will still be Thessalian like. It would only make a difference if that 40% was Dalmatian like, which is not. 
> 
> The Dorians were most likely nearly identical with Myceanaeans by the time they reached Peloponnese at least their contribution most likely did make a small difference which are similar as micro-regional differences (eg. east - west Sicilian), but the the cluster as whole is the same. 
> 
> This model just shows that an over 40% population replacement might have happend and still no significant difference in the genetics, which can lead to other topics.


 Sure, superficially Thracians and Myceneans are kinda alike. But they still have some distance. And there is something unusual about Thracians, and also it seems Late Antiquity SZ19 is definitely a Thracian as he is close to IA Thracian and very distant from everyone else, which means this admixture definitely circulated in the area. 

Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: *3.6854%* / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: *15.0178*% / 15.01781376
76.8 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
23.2 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

There is something very off about Thracians, Myceneans are a great fit for Minoan + little Yamnaya which is logical, Thracians totally not. So I think these are derived of quite distinct elements.

Same with SZ19, SZ19 is very similar to I5769 even in components so must be even fully Thracian person.
Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: *17.2677*% / 17.26771481
77.6	I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
22.4	I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

----------


## Dema

According to mytrueancestry which manages plenty of ancient and modern DNA therefore i am pretty confident in them and modern Albanians against ancient samples stand like this:

1. *Byzantine (5.168)
2. *Roman (5.168)
3. Byzantine + Roman (5.168)
4. Byzantine + Gallo-Roman (7.35)
5. Roman (7.987)
6. Gallo-Roman + Hellenic Roman (8.014)
7. Hellenic Roman + Roman (9.032)
8. Ancient Greek + Byzantine (9.103)
9. Hellenic Roman (13.77)
10. Gallo-Roman (15.26)
11. Ancient Greek (16.02)
12. Byzantine (16.35)


According to this we can see that modern Albanians are extremely close to Byzantine and Roman samples, and when we get actual Illyrian samples from anywhere 500 BCE to 500 CE they should be even closer.
Even tho i think Illyrians were very very close to Romans genetically and they were part of both Roman and Roman Byzantine empires. 


here is my personal ploting map against ancient samples, ofc that Byzantines and Romans are closer then Illyrian sample also because of Roman impact on Illyrians. But i am pretty confident when Illyrians from time of Roman Empire and Byzant or a bit earlier will be tested and uploaded they will be probably my closest ancient samples. But also for all Albanians in general.

Anyways i am not denying that Albanians might be occasionally Slavic admixed, i myself have some amount of Slavic autosomal of about 18 %, and around 80 % should be what we call Illyrian "Southeast cluster".
Simply i dont believe Slavs have to do anything with Albanians plotting far from ancient 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample.

----------


## Aspurg

Interesting.. Thracians have nothing to do with Mycenaeans, superficial similarity based on EEF dominance but the components are different. It seems Bulgarian Chalcolithic no.1 + that R-Z93 Steppe Iranic-like sample (I2163) + little bit of Anatolian. This Z93 sample is a better fit than Yamnaya even.

Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: *5.1619*% / 5.16186673
65.4 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
21.2 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp 
13.4 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp


Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: *6.6909*% / 6.69090148
54.8 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
23.6 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp
18.4 I0781_Bulgaria_C_6400_ybp
3.2 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp

----------


## ihype02

> Sure, superficially Thracians and Myceneans are kinda alike. But they still have some distance. And there is something unusual about Thracians, and also it seems Late Antiquity SZ19 is definitely a Thracian as he is close to IA Thracian and very distant from everyone else, which means this admixture definitely circulated in the area. 
> 
> Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
> Distance: *3.6854%* / 3.68539366
> 88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
> 11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp
> 
> 
> Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
> ...


You didn't get my point. I am pretty sure you used the Greek Empurie which lies above the two Myceanean sample for the model you used, and which is the closest to the Thracian and you used the the Myceanean below Greek Empuries (Thracian-*Empuries*-Myceanean-*Myceanean*), but as you can see there is an other Empuries which is less close to Thracians than three out of four Myceanean samples that we have, so using those types of models for population that are close to each is not always accurate as those difference are simply individual and quite common even in modern polulation. Some Classical Greeks will even shift closer to Minoans but the cluster is still the same. I just used Gheg vs Thessalian example in comparsion.

----------


## Aspurg

> You didn't get my point. I am pretty sure you used the Greek Empurie which lies above the two Myceanean sample for the model you used, and which is the closest to the Thracian and you used the the Myceanean below Greek Empuries (Thracian-*Empuries*-Myceanean-*Myceanean*), but as you can see there is an other Empuries which is less close to Thracians than three out of four Myceanean samples that we have, so using those types of models for population that are close to each is not always accurate as those difference are simply individual and quite common even in modern polulation. Some Classical Greeks will even shift closer to Minoans but the cluster is still the same. I just used Gheg vs Thessalian example in comparsion.


 Ah I see. I used the one that I've found: I8215. I found also some I8206 but he is Gaulish. So there is another Greek Empuries (with Greek ancestry).

----------


## Angela

> This SZ43 is one of my top matches ....how you come to conclusion that is Illyricani?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Sorry, I guess I confused people. 

That quote about SZ43 being "Illyrian" or Pannonian was from Aspurg.

I don't necessarily agree. There were clearly "Italian" like people in the area, whether more Northern, Central or Southern, and some Greek like people as well. 

Is that because that was the make up of all of Pannonia at the time? I doubt it.

We know that during the period of these burials a culture existed in the vicinity was included people from the Balkans and other parts of the Roman world, artisans, who had relocated there, as the history indicates. 

Also for what it's worth, this is my distance to the following sample:
40. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1600 BC) *..... 12.46* - I4331 - 
Top 96 % match vs all users

----------


## Hawk

The way Aspurg assigns Y-DNA to Bronze Age Cultures is hillarious, like he is distributing marketing flyers lol.

----------


## Dema

> Also for what it's worth, this is my distance to the following sample:
> 40. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1600 BC) *..... 12.46* - I4331 - 
> Top 96 % match vs all users



Yeah, thanks for sharing Angela! So you are TOP match vs this Dalmatian Illyrian from 1600 BCE and yet pretty far away. You match him at GD 12.5 while typical for Albanians is GD 14-16.
This means that you are his closest match in entire database. I think this alone proves that being close to this sample has nothing with Slavic genetics.

This is kinda expected, This "Illyrian" just simply dont fit in antique civilisation DNA that we find in Mediterranean Sea 1000 years later. Reason might be that its too early and he is not real Mediterranean Illyrian yet.


Since Angela is closest to this sample and yet so far away, this leads me to think that this sample population autosomal DNA does not exist anymore among modern humans, and closest whats left to them we find in Italiy (Angela GD 12), and in Albania (GD 14).
Also we know that same thing happened to his Ydna. His Ydna actually bottlenecked and dont exist anymore. However other J2b-L283 lines that we find in Balkan today are his brother clades that had more luck and managed to survive and expand, unlike sample we are talking about here which as already said his Ydna was lost in bottleneck, and most likely autosomal admix also.

He is just too ancient : )

----------


## Angela

> Yeah, thanks for sharing Angela! So you are TOP match vs this Dalmatian Illyrian from 1600 BCE and yet pretty far away. You match him at GD 12.5 while typical for Albanians is GD 14-16.
> This means that you are his closest match in entire database. I think this alone proves that being close to this sample has nothing with Slavic genetics.
> 
> This is kinda expected, This "Illyrian" just simply dont fit in antique civilisation DNA that we find in Mediterranean Sea 1000 years later. Reason might be that its too early and he is not real Mediterranean Illyrian yet.
> 
> 
> Since Angela is closest to this sample and yet so far away, this leads me to think that this sample population autosomal DNA does not exist anymore among modern humans, and closest whats left to them we find in Italiy (Angela GD 12), and in Albania (GD 14).
> Also we know that same thing happened to his Ydna. His Ydna actually bottlenecked and dont exist anymore. However other J2b-L283 lines that we find in Balkan today are his brother clades that had more luck and managed to survive and expand, unlike sample we are talking about here which as already said his Ydna was lost in bottleneck, and most likely autosomal admix also.
> 
> He is just too ancient : )


I'm closer to the Balkan samples on other calculators, i.e. not mytrueancestry, and Italians from further north are even closer if I remember correctly. 

See, for instance, here, my results from Eurogenes K13. None of my supposed "Longobard" samples from Szolad or Collegno are Longobards. They are Italianate people or Gallo Roman types. There are also Greek Islander types there. CL36 is closest to modern Piemontese if I remember correctly. It's totally misleading labeling. R1 to whom I'm often at a distance of 6 is a Proto-Villanovan. Stufane from Romagna is at a four. More Northern Italians are even closer.

Just to reiterate, Eurogenes says SZ43 is at a distance of 2 to Ligurians, 3 to Emilians, and 4 to Tuscans. I'm sure you know how to do this, but for anyone who does not, you can see to whom these ancient samples are closest by just copying their coordinates from the Eurogenes K13 ancients and placing them as targets in the Eurogenes K13 updated modern.


Distance to:
Angela

2.93497871
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp

5.41744405
CL36_longobard_north_italy

5.73090743
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp

6.05641808
R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy

6.08392143
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp

6.59609733
SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp

6.59807548
SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp

6.86632362
R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy

6.93144285
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy

7.32957707
R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy

7.39407871
I7424_morisco_

7.40771220
I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp

7.55432988
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp

7.63038007
CL23_longobard_north_italy

7.83203039
R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

7.92385007
SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century

8.08064973
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp

8.12940342
R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy

8.34281128
R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial

8.41153969
col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_

8.50960046
I7425_morisco_

8.62188494
I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp

8.71884167
STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp

8.89206388
I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

8.97791178
SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

8.98867621
I12515_iberia_

9.04961878
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age

9.06077259
col001_col001_

9.11117995
R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

9.28771231
Crusader_SI41_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_

9.33366488
RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp

9.37860864
CL121_longobard_north_italy

9.49464059
R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

9.64738306
ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC

10.11640747
R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial

10.20063233
R120_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

10.26921126
I12647_iberia_

10.70229415
I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1 _

10.74763695
DA198_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_

10.80305512
I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp

10.96359430
France_IA_ERS88

11.29851760
NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp

11.34239393
R109_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

11.34796017
scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce_

11.37517033
ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC

11.57362951
I12516_iberia_

11.58556861
R110_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

11.62763519
I12514_iberia_

11.73873077
SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp

11.80875099
RISE483_Hungary_Vatya.SG_3700_ybp



Another one:
5.96067110
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete

5.96285167
I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical

6.06036303
I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge

6.16793320
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

6.20598904
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

6.36315173
SZ43

6.86379633
I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN

6.88215809
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

6.99657773
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge

7.16551464
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy

7.41494437
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge

7.68900514
CL36

8.12881295
ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy197

8.38781259
SZ28

8.75370207
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge

8.85352472
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge

8.99296392
SZ31

9.00708055
CL23

9.01179227
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

9.05183407
ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy192

9.10498215
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima

9.23041169
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge

9.25520934
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

9.31019871
ScythianMoldova_SCY300

9.40529638
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio






14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age:
Distance to:
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp

3.49070194
Lombardy

3.80060521
Piedmont

3.80326176
Liguria

3.85440008
Veneto

4.80312398
Emilia

6.01376754
Swiss-Italian

6.45859892
Tuscany

6.65665081
Friuli-VG

6.75908278
Trentino

6.95495507
Swiss_Italian

9.12534383
Tuscan

9.59938540
Romagna

9.74907688
Portuguese

9.89685304
Spanish_Extremadura

10.01509860
FrenchCorsica

10.23145151
AostaValley

10.38467140
Umbria

10.66925021
Spanish_Murcia

10.72680288
Spanish_Andalucia

10.87431377
Spanish_Valencia

11.29207687
Spanish_Cataluna

11.34176353
Lazio

11.50318217
Marche

11.59701686
Spanish_Galicia

11.98845278
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon



You'll see the same thing for the Scythians. There were farmer admixed Scythians, and then the "other" kind. I knew something was up with them when the first paper on the Scythians came out. On one of their graphs the mtDna for a lot of them was closest to Tuscans. :)

----------


## bigsnake49

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That 14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age sample is very close to modern northern Italians all the way down to Toscans.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Interesting.. Thracians have nothing to do with Mycenaeans, superficial similarity based on EEF dominance but the components are different. It seems Bulgarian Chalcolithic no.1 + that R-Z93 Steppe Iranic-like sample (I2163) + little bit of Anatolian. This Z93 sample is a better fit than Yamnaya even.
> 
> Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
> Distance: *5.1619*% / 5.16186673
> 65.4 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
> 21.2 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp 
> 13.4 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, ancient Thracians do not fit neatly with other populations. They are not that close to Greeks or Illyrians. As far as Myceneans and other Greek Tribes are concerned, there has been the theory that Myceneans might have been the first tribe down to Greece with others arriving later on and the Dorians arriving last. Now we don't really have any archeology to gauge the timing or where exactly each tribe came from.

----------


## Hawk

Paternally, Kosovo Albanians are the most Paleo-Balkan people. They will be almost identical to Central Balkan people from Bronze Age/Iron Age.

----------


## Angela

FYI
The 15769 Thracian
Distance to:
I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp

7.91786587
FrenchCorsica

9.27951507
Lazio

9.41298571
West_Sicilian

9.87052177
Marche

10.09024281
Umbria

10.11554744
Tuscan

11.26628599
Romagna

11.74729756
Abruzzo

11.93531734
Molise

12.29196486
Apulia

12.39404292
Tuscany

12.41296902
Basilicata

13.13371235
Sicily

13.26128953
Greek_Western-Thrace

13.31609552
Campania

13.43489486
Emilia

13.95051970
Liguria

14.28420106
East_Sicilian

14.37559738
Malta

14.56986616
Moroccan_Jew

14.84789547
Calabria

14.86604857
Central_Greek

15.53956241
Lombardy

16.34432011
Vlach_Central-Macedonia

16.38465746
Greek_Andros_Island



SZ19 is also most like Italians, and not northern Italians, but mostly Tuscan and Central Italian
Distance to:
SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp

8.09688829
FrenchCorsica

10.43373854
Tuscan

10.49236866
Lazio

10.94529122
Marche

11.05304483
Umbria

11.11803490
West_Sicilian

11.89234207
Romagna

12.64221895
Tuscany

13.33156405
Emilia

13.50608011
Abruzzo

13.56941414
Liguria

13.80914914
Molise

14.41916780
Greek_Western-Thrace

14.44291522
Apulia

14.46969246
Basilicata

14.62580596
Lombardy

15.38814479
Campania

15.51797023
Moroccan_Jew

15.61627356
Sicily

16.52028450
East_Sicilian

16.57270044
Malta

17.08087820
Calabria

17.08936511
Central_Greek

17.50997430
Vlach_Central-Macedonia

17.54590551
Albanian_south_Albania

----------


## Hawk

G25 is a way more powerful tool.

Distance to:
BGR_IA

0.03716518
Italian_Lazio

0.03973669
Italian_Molise

0.04002928
Italian_Apulia

0.04080540
Italian_Abruzzo

0.04080752
Italian_Umbria

0.04130677
Italian_Basilicata

0.04130794
Italian_Marche

0.04164920
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04274486
Italian_Campania

0.04304663
Greek_Izmir

0.04335443
French_Corsica

0.04460689
Italian_Tuscany

0.04699819
Italian_Calabria

0.04720308
Sicilian_East

0.05031313
Greek_Thessaly

0.05043692
Sicilian_West

0.05128939
Italian_Piedmont

0.05178807
Albanian

0.05356331
Greek_Crete

0.05438078
Greek_Kos

0.05576806
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.05593646
Maltese

0.05629075
Swiss_Italian

0.05689945
Italian_Lombardy

0.05718129
Italian_Bergamo



Distance to:
BGR_EBA

0.03666707
French_Corsica

0.04818078
Italian_Bergamo

0.05124758
Spanish_Menorca

0.05125800
Italian_Tuscany

0.05127313
Italian_Lombardy

0.05185474
Italian_Piedmont

0.05215998
Spanish_La_Rioja

0.05270229
Italian_Veneto

0.05391358
Italian_Lazio

0.05406821
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.05506509
Spanish_Murcia

0.05534195
Sardinian

0.05560457
Italian_Umbria

0.05616595
Swiss_Italian

0.05621862
Italian_Marche

0.05631146
Spanish_Baleares

0.05695035
Spanish_Eivissa

0.05715987
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

0.05740020
Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

0.05809775
Spanish_Mallorca

0.05835932
Italian_Liguria

0.05837154
Albanian

0.05839144
Spanish_Andalucia

0.05851895
Spanish_Peri-Barcelona

0.05866806
Spanish_Pirineu

----------


## Hawk

Distance to:
Scythian_MDA

0.03201682
Greek_Thessaly

0.03253209
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03254756
Swiss_Italian

0.03277406
Albanian

0.03496377
Gagauz

0.03544836
Italian_Piedmont

0.03669623
Italian_Tuscany

0.03769288
Bulgarian

0.03863600
Italian_Umbria

0.03891862
Turkish_Balkans

0.03959110
Italian_Marche

0.04035029
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04062652
Italian_Veneto

0.04102057
Italian_Northeast

0.04223547
Italian_Liguria

0.04251840
Romanian

0.04325477
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.04340304
Italian_Lombardy

0.04340825
Italian_Molise

0.04442798
Italian_Bergamo

0.04468163
Greek_Izmir

0.04520465
Macedonian

0.04585962
Italian_Abruzzo

0.04675261
Italian_Lazio

0.04769947
French_Provence



Distance to:
HRV_IA

0.02400696
Italian_Lombardy

0.02684022
Italian_Bergamo

0.03098048
Italian_Piedmont

0.03132283
Italian_Veneto

0.03232243
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.03503135
Italian_Liguria

0.03523518
Swiss_Italian

0.03570296
French_Corsica

0.03623112
Italian_Tuscany

0.03842617
Greek_Thessaly

0.03893473
Italian_Northeast

0.04186317
Italian_Marche

0.04203788
Spanish_Mallorca

0.04216678
Spanish_Baleares

0.04240815
Spanish_Eivissa

0.04248741
Spanish_Menorca

0.04263746
French_Provence

0.04294519
Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

0.04303196
Albanian

0.04368641
Italian_Umbria

0.04378507
Italian_Aosta_Valley

0.04596885
Spanish_Girona

0.04608396
Spanish_Peri-Barcelona

0.04665901
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

0.04692757
Spanish_Penedes



Distance to:
HRV_MBA

0.02308539
Italian_Veneto

0.02434146
Italian_Bergamo

0.02752233
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.02875666
Italian_Piedmont

0.02916787
Swiss_Italian

0.02929404
French_Corsica

0.02982540
Spanish_Baleares

0.03092654
Italian_Northeast

0.03156581
Spanish_Mallorca

0.03182241
Italian_Aosta_Valley

0.03293500
Italian_Lombardy

0.03297710
Italian_Tuscany

0.03315363
French_Provence

0.03374741
Spanish_Girona

0.03486694
Spanish_Eivissa

0.03515789
Spanish_Peri-Barcelona

0.03542780
Spanish_Menorca

0.03553728
Spanish_Penedes

0.03607473
Spanish_Catalunya_Central

0.03700134
Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona

0.03751534
Swiss_French

0.03760157
Spanish_Alacant

0.03802862
Spanish_Castello

0.03845283
Spanish_Lleida

0.03909580
Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre



Distance to:
HRV_EBA

0.02879148
Italian_Tuscany

0.03018715
Italian_Piedmont

0.03348532
Swiss_Italian

0.03385035
French_Corsica

0.03433014
Italian_Lombardy

0.03462348
Italian_Marche

0.03563724
Italian_Umbria

0.03572884
Italian_Bergamo

0.03630241
Greek_Thessaly

0.03644951
Italian_Veneto

0.03703327
Italian_Liguria

0.03729837
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.04001548
Albanian

0.04106993
Italian_Lazio

0.04124768
Spanish_Menorca

0.04338733
Italian_Abruzzo

0.04397374
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.04409683
Italian_Molise

0.04419141
Spanish_Baleares

0.04425962
Italian_Northeast

0.04532127
Spanish_Eivissa

0.04541668
Spanish_Mallorca

0.04595456
French_Provence

0.04691098
Greek_Peloponnese

0.04741621
Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

----------


## Angela

Still all basically most like Italians, my friend, for whatever reasons.

----------


## Johane Derite

> If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.
> 
> I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.


Linguistically, Dalmatians, Pannonians and those above were different to the "Illyri Proper" so we should expect them to have a different signature than Illryi proper.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians. Here are the results of a G25 calculator, which is used a lot.
> 
> Target: Progon_scaled
> Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
> 
> 49.2
> TUR_Barcin_N
> 
> 
> ...


Are these the results of individuals or averaged results of entire groups represented?

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## Hawk

> Are these the results of individuals or averaged results of entire groups represented?


Averaged.....

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## Ralphie Boy

> Averaged.....


Thanks. Amazing to see that the old Neolithic farmer populations survived so well in the south Balkans. It seems to reinforce what population genetics pioneers LL Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues said, at least as it pertains to the south Balkans, that the earlier migrations were the most significant and later migrations, like the medieval Slavs, had relatively less impact due to greater population density.

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## matadworf

> Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.
> 
> That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.
> 
> Roman (7.945)
> Gaul + Roman (8.253)
> Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
> Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
> Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
> ...



I really question the authenticity of the Mytrueancestry site. I'm not sure I'd make much of these results.

----------


## Dema

> I really question the authenticity of the Mytrueancestry site. I'm not sure I'd make much of these results.


This site is 100% legit, its simple genetic distance from modern populations with ancient ones. You even have tools in their website so you can check genome yourself and see exactly on what chromosome you match some sample. Also they did it in average so you can see more or less what are ancient matches for all ethnicities. You can double check all this if you know how to work with genetic and autosomal files. Its all open and there is nothing to be manipulated or hidden.

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## Dema

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> That 14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age sample is very close to modern northern Italians all the way down to Toscans.


Angela matches him at GD 12.5 and she is top match. Therefore i doubt that anyone matches him much closer then 12.5, while that is not really close, i would consider that mid to far match.

Simply noone matches this sample under GD 10 which can be considered a borderline of close match.

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## Angela

Well, Eurogenes 13 places me at an even closer distance to some of these samples:

5.73090743
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp



8.89206388
I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp



8.08064973
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp



Eurogenes places 14331 at a distance of 3.5 to Lombards, just a little more distant to Venetians, and so on.

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## Dema

> Well, Eurogenes 13 places me at an even closer distance to some of these samples:
> 
> 5.73090743
> I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
> 
> 
> 
> 8.89206388
> I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
> ...


Yeah, its ungrateful to yet give any conclusions but i might try. This GD is just relative distance calculated by some formula according to shared DNA. Therefore GD 5 does not have to be same distance on mytrueancestry and on Gedmatch. However there is quite a few modal Italian groups in mytrueancestry and i checked them all yesterday and it seems that North_Italian group really shows somewhat close distance to 1600 BCE Illyrian sample. Here is results as they stand now on mytrueanItaliabs 
By my opinion we need proper Illyrian study where at least 10 ancient bones will be tested from various regions to have better picture.

True Illyrians were anywhere from king Bardyllis to king Gentius. I would even consider Roman and Byzantine Illyrians from Illyrian native lands as real Illyrians also.

I just cant accept 1600 BCE sample as real Illyrian lol. He was most likely Indo-European, or rather indo-europicised by most likely R1b proto-IE.

Furthermore its clear that whatever he was, ancient Indo-European or already developed Illyrian. They conquered entire Italian Peninsula and much further from direction of Dalmatia, which was naturally reached by Indo-Europens earlier then Italy, there we also find 700 BCE Etruscan sample which is same branch under J2-L283 as this sample therefore of same origin and his direct expansion as Etruscian is 1000 years younger.
Therefore its nothing strange why North Italians might be a bit closer to this sample then Albanians. I think but also according to history Illyrians were more prone to Greeks and influenced and mixed with ancient Greeks much more then with Italics. Therefore its possible that their autosomal genetic shifted and combined with Helenic but also with native Pelasgian elements which played important role in creating Greek and Illyrian ethnos. 

And that is why Albanians are a bit closer to Greeks then to Italians.

I am pretty confident that if we would test Illyrians from time of Bardyllis and Gentius that Albanians will be closest to them. Just as if we would test Constantine the Great bones he would be closest to Albanians, as his father was Illyrian and mother Greek. 

This 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is simply Indo-European which by mixing and intermixing with locals and out of there later Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes development from.

Open for debate :)

Screenshot_20200614-135910.jpg

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## Angela

> Yeah, its ungrateful to yet give any conclusions but i might try. This GD is just relative distance calculated by some formula according to shared DNA. Therefore GD 5 does not have to be same distance on mytrueancestry and on Gedmatch. However there is quite a few modal Italian groups in mytrueancestry and i checked them all yesterday and it seems that North_Italian group really shows somewhat close distance to 1600 BCE Illyrian sample. Here is results as they stand now on mytrueanItaliabs 
> By my opinion we need proper Illyrian study where at least 10 ancient bones will be tested from various regions to have better picture.
> 
> True Illyrians were anywhere from king Bardyllis to king Gentius. I would even consider Roman and Byzantine Illyrians from Illyrian native lands as real Illyrians also.
> 
> I just cant accept 1600 BCE sample as real Illyrian lol. He was most likely Indo-European, or rather indo-europicised by most likely R1b proto-IE.
> 
> Furthermore its clear that whatever he was, ancient Indo-European or already developed Illyrian. They conquered entire Italian Peninsula and much further from direction of Dalmatia, which was naturally reached by Indo-Europens earlier then Italy, there we also find 700 BCE Etruscan sample which is same branch under J2-L283 as this sample therefore of same origin and his direct expansion as Etruscian is 1000 years younger.
> Therefore its nothing strange why North Italians might be a bit closer to this sample then Albanians. I think but also according to history Illyrians were more prone to Greeks and influenced and mixed with ancient Greeks much more then with Italics. Therefore its possible that their autosomal genetic shifted and combined with Helenic but also with native Pelasgian elements which played important role in creating Greek and Illyrian ethnos. 
> ...


Dema, I can't debate your assertion when you have no data to support it. We have what we have. When we get more data we'll re-examine it. 

I assure you I have no personal interest in whether or not North Italians or Albanians are closest to Illyrians, other than as a matter of interest. It will turn out the way it will turn out.

I also think the Slavic element may be pulling Balkanites away from some earlier samples. By a fluke of history we were spared that set of invasions, and the Germanic invasions didn't have as much of an impact as was once thought, and very little indeed on Central to Southern Italy. So, I believe we better preserve classical era and perhaps even Iron Age Southeastern European ancestry. However, the data will show whether that is correct.

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## Dema

Of course Angela and i dont say you or anyone have any personal interes in this. Its simply matter of finding truth since for sure in future when we will have ancient results we will know but until then there is some room and data that opens door for speculations. Anyways i agree that Slavic impact might push Albanians a bit from that sample but according to so far given results its really minor impact. And its not main reason why Albanians are a bit far from this sample, even tho its not that Italians are very close either. My proves for my claims are that Albanians plot close to Greeks while Italians are further regarding modern populations. But then again out of ancient samples Albanians are pretty close to Byzantines and Urnifed Bronze Age samples from Hungary. For example me personally, i am a bit Slavic admixed, we know we had serb female few generations back. So i have kinda more of Slavic admix then usual Gheg Albanian. I might even be on Tosk level of Slavic influence which is greater then Gheg group where i fall as Kosovar. So i want to repost my personal Ancient PCA plot. So take attention at these two samples: "visigoth mixed slav girona (550 ad)" and "scythian southern moldova (290 BCE)". These are my borderline further matches that indicate distant connection. Usually for South Slavs these are closest matches and i believe that because of my minor Slavic admix i see these matches at borderline of being very distant, while as seen below i am very very close and in middle of Urnfield Bronze Age sample and Byzantine Roman warrior which do not have anything with Slavs. Being so close to Urnfield culture and Byzantines tells that Albanians have autosomal genetic continuity at least since these times. Why Byzantine Roman warrior is not close to Dalmatian 1600 BCE sample but rather Kosovar Albanians are his closest match? I bet he was not slavic admixed just as 1000 BCE Urnfields were not. So what i say is that Slavic admix is minor among Albanians and Albanians still plot very good with Romans just as with Byzantines but naturally we expect when we test Illyrians from 300 BCE which were fully developed Illyrians that they will plot close to Albanians. I am sure that Albanians will not test them, we can only hope some foreigners like Americans or Europeans will invest money and do this kind of reaserch because i am sure everyone will be interested in results of ancient Illyrians and that would be very interesting paper.

kE8Tcf0.jpg

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## Dema

PCA:IMG-20200615-WA0015.jpg

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## Angela

> PCA:IMG-20200615-WA0015.jpg
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app


I sometimes get Kosovars as my fourth or fifth match, after Tuscans and North Italians, and before Greeks, and even before Southern Italians, depending on the calculator. I'm not quite sure why, but it's a fact.

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## Dema

What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???

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## Jovialis

> What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app


Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations. Not the other way around. They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture. 

Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.

Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.

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## Jovialis

@Dema,

That spot next to the southern-most Italians, and Greeks is not the only spot where Ashkenazi plot. There are Ashkenazi Jews that plot exactly on top of where Albanians land, which is east of Tuscans:



There has been a lot of admixture events between the Levant, and Europe, especially south-eastern Europe into the levant. From the Classical period and Iron age, and into the middle ages, Jews have been mixing with Europeans, to become genetically who they are today.

----------


## Jovialis

> What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app


Furthermore, Pelasgian is not an academic term in regards to population genetics. Southern Italians, and Greeks are similar to Bronze-Age and Iron Age populations that have existed in that area, which is why they have an affinity to Myceaneans. There was an early Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that brought in admixture into the north eastern Mediterranean basin. I think it is likely that the ancestors of Albanians were similar to these populations, which were augmented by Slavic admixture.

----------


## Dema

> Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations. Not the other way around. They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture. 
> 
> Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.
> 
> Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.


Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.

I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.

Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was of Cartagian origin and was extremely proud of his Phoenician origin. He was fluent in Punic/Semitic and spoke Latin and Greek with accent. Phoenicians but also Minoan, Pelasgian element plays major role here. 


Btw yes i don't have time to read new studies, im easy going :) Im reading book of Procopius of Caesarea atm, Secret History about Byzantine times of Justinian I and his crazy wife Theodora :)

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## Jovialis

> Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.
> 
> I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.
> 
> Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was of Cartagian origin and was extremely proud of his Phoenician origin. He was fluent in Punic/Semitic and spoke Latin and Greek with accent. Phoenicians but also Minoan, Pelasgian element plays major role here. 
> 
> 
> *Btw yes i don't have time to read new studies, im easy going :)* Im reading book of Procopius of Caesarea atm, Secret History about Byzantine times of Justinian I and his crazy wife Theodora :)
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app


I'm sorry to say it, but your ignorance is apparent. I'm not trying to insult you, but allow me to elaborate.

"Eastern Mediterranean" is a nonsense term, in regards to genetics. The genetics of south eastern Europe and various parts of the middle east are very divergent.

I have never heard of Phoenician admixture into Greeks or Romans of any significant degree by any genetic paper. That sounds more like something you would hear a t-roll propose. In fact, as I stated, Greeks are similar to modern mainland Greek populations, mostly from the south, as well as Southern Italians. Moreover, in the genetics paper on Ancient Rome, two of the four "Latin" samples are already Southern Italian-like, and the other two being Northern Italian-like.

Copper Age and Bronze age Anatolians have about 50% Iran-like admixture, with the other half being Neolithic Anatolian. These people migrated into the Balkans, and the rest of Southern Europe, but also into the Levant, where they replaced about 50% of the admixture there.

----------


## Dema

Looks like you have a problem accepting that Italians are autosomally all over the place and that North Italians are quite far away from Greeks, South Italians and Albanians. This would be like saying South Italians are far away from Croatian l14331 sample and from North Italians because of Slavic admix lol. They are pushed to East Mediterranean / Middle Eastern cluster because they were mixing with Mediterranean populations like Phoenicians (Semitic) and Pelasgian (pre-IE, pre-Greek, and pre-Illyrian populations). Regarding Cypriot Phoenicoans can for sure be considered as Pelasgian as they were pre-Greek natives.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that Greeks, South Italians, and therefore also Albanians are pushed also toward this Pelasgian and Mediterranean autosomal element. 

You might have never hear for any Phoenician admix into Romans but you should take history books into hands and look for times when entire South Italy, Sardinia ,entire Spain, Cypriot and partially most of Mediterranean Sea was for centuries in control of Phoenicoans, long before Romans or Italics were any major Mediterranean force. I assure you that Romans were heavy mixed with Phoenicians but also with Middle Easterners, hence the reason why haplogroups J1 and J2-M205, but also some clades of J2a appear exclusively in time of Roman Empire and haplogroup J in general reaches over 50 % exclusively in Roman Empire in Italy.





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## Jovialis

> Looks like you have a problem accepting that Italians are autosomally all over the place and that North Italians are quite far away from Greeks, South Italians and Albanians. This would be like saying South Italians are far away from Croatian l1443 sample and from North Italians because of Slavic admix lol. They are pushed to East Mediterranean / Middle Eastern cluster because they were mixing with Mediterranean populations like Phoenicians (Semitic) and Pelasgian (pre-IE, pre-Greek, and pre-Illyrian populations). Regarding Cypriot Phoenicoans can for sure be considered as Pelasgian as they were pre-Greek natives.
> 
> It does not take a rocket scientist to see that Greeks, South Italians, and therefore also Albanians are pushed also toward this Pelasgian and Mediterranean autosomal element. 
> 
> You might have never hear for any Phoenician admix into Romans but you should take history books into hands and look for times when entire South Italy, Sardinia ,entire Spain, Cypriot and partially most of Mediterranean Sea was in control of Phoenicoans. I assure you that Romans were heavy mixed with Phoenicians but also with Middle Easterners, hence the reason why haplogroups J1 and J2-M205, but also some clades of J2a appear exclusively in time of Roman Empire and haplogroup J in general reaches over 50 % exclusively in Roman Empire in Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You want to disagree, at least produce some actual evidence. Don't give me superficial, and benighted explanations of PCAs, and haplogroups. Haplogroup J has been in Italy since the Neolithic, genius.

I have no problem, with anything that the genetic studies show. I post many PCAs demonstrating genetic distances between populations, from various calculators all the time. Attacking my integrity is uncalled for. You already admitted you don't read academic papers, which is obvious. Don't be so reticent on your feelings about certain groups, because that is obvious as well. 

I am not going to allow you to promote stupidity here. Keep it up, and you're gone.

----------


## Jovialis

Take a look at the graph:


https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full

ABA has been in Southern Europe, including Albania since the early Bronze age at least. That is the reason why those populations are pulled towards their position on the PCA.

Genetics of the ABA:




> *we are not able to reject a two-population qpAdm model in which these groups derive ~60% of their ancestry from Anatolian farmers and ~40% from CHG-related ancestry* *This signal is not driven by Neolithic Iranian ancestry*, 
> 
> 
> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711


Likely the same migration that helped give rise to the Myceaneans:




> The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia.* Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran*. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations. 
> 
> https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017Natur.548..214L/abstract


Populations in the levant are differentiated from ABA, because the Levantines retained about half of the admixture from the previous population, in addition to other migrations:




> 





> Here, we report genome-wide data analyses from 110 ancient Near Eastern individuals spanning the Late Neolithic to Late Bronze Age, a period characterized by intense interregional interactions for the Near East. We find that 6th millennium BCE populations of North/Central Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus shared mixed ancestry on a genetic cline that formed during the Neolithic between Western Anatolia and regions in today’s Southern Caucasus/Zagros. *During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced, while in the rest of Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, we document genetic continuity with only transient gene flow*. Additionally, we reveal a genetically distinct individual within the Late Bronze Age Northern Levant. Overall, our study uncovers multiple scales of population dynamics through time, from extensive admixture during the Neolithic period to long-distance mobility within the globalized societies of the Late Bronze Age.
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092

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## Jovialis

^Basically, this:

----------


## Angela

Some of this supposed "history" is completely inaccurate. 

The Phoenicians had some settlements on the northwest part of Sicily, and in southwestern Sardinia. There were no Phoenician settlements on mainland Italy. There certainly were none in Greece. That's nonsense

If by Pelasgians, people mean the population living in Greece before the arrival of the steppe admixed Greek speakers or Thracians, or whatever, they were old fashioned EEF farmers, and later Middle Neolithic people, and so a blend of about 20% WHG and 80% Anatolian farmer. It's the same population which forms the majority of the Minoans, the Mycenaeans and everybody else living in the Balkans as well, including the Albanians. The Minoans and the Mycenaeans received input as well from Bronze Age Anatolians, who had, in addition to Anatolian farmer, ancestry from the Zagros/Iran. The Mycenaeans also had some steppe.

Albanians actually fit within Greek variation, occupying a space near Thessaly.

You're not different "breeds". 

You really should read the academic papers, and don't rely on what you read on "anthro" sites.

----------


## ihype02

> Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations. Not the other way around. They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture. 
> Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.
> Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.


I always assumed before that most of the Ashkanazi Jews are mixed with Poles and Western Europeans than the southern Europeans given the fact that many of them look very light in pigment. You would need a greater distance to pull them closer to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders.
Yeah West Sicilians are closer to Abruzzes than they are to East Sicilians, the PCA is weird.

----------


## Ailchu

> Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.
> 
> I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.


we could say that greeks or albanians were pulled towards pheonicians or eastern mediterranean because the anatolian farmers were already very simily to levantine populations. on the pca's you can see that farmers in europe are basically on a cline between WHG and neolithic levant. from that perspective the farmers from anatolia pulled "europeans"/WHG towards levant. so europeans were already pulled towards the eastern mediterranean 8000 years ago.

----------


## Hawk

I already posted proportions of some famous model used around in anthroforas. It's pretty clear that Albanians/Greeks differ from Paleo-Balkan samples into two directions in comparison with Italians.

The first one is:

More Anatolian-like affinities. They got this admixture during LBA/EIA or during Byzantine time, Byzantine time might be a good bet.

Second one is:

More Slavic admixture.

With Albanians having more Slavic admixture than Greeks, and Greeks having more Anatolian-like admixture than Albanians.

Otherwise, both of the populations look compact and close to the Paleo-Balkan populations, just that not closer than Italians based on admixture proportions who are much more similar, especially to Dalmatians/Iapygians, Central/North Italians will be even closer to Roman-age Illyrians.

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## bigsnake49

> I always assumed before that most of the Ashkanazi Jews are mixed with Poles and Western Europeans than the southern Europeans given the fact that many of them look very light in pigment. You would need a greater distance to pull them closer to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders.
> Yeah West Sicilians are closer to Abruzzes than they are to East Sicilians, the PCA is weird.


I would not be surprised if there was not an exodus of Jewish merchants from Rome as Rome declined. Same thing that probably happened as Constantinople was sacked during the Crusades.

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## Angela

> we could say that greeks or albanians were pulled towards pheonicians or eastern mediterranean because the anatolian farmers were already very simily to levantine populations. on the pca's you can see that farmers in europe are basically on a cline between WHG and neolithic levant. from that perspective the farmers from anatolia pulled "europeans"/WHG towards levant. so europeans were already pulled towards the eastern mediterranean 8000 years ago.


Exactly right.

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## ihype02

> Thanks. Amazing to see that the old Neolithic farmer populations survived so well in the south Balkans. It seems to reinforce what population genetics pioneers LL Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues said, at least as it pertains to the south Balkans, that the earlier migrations were the most significant and later migrations, like the medieval Slavs, had relatively less impact due to greater population density.


Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.

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## Hawk

Considering that one of the La Tene samples was E1b1b and he was most likely E-V13, i think Urnfield Culture could possibly well had E-V13 in their ranks. Only aDNA will tell the true and final story of all these events.

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## Angela

[QUOTE=ihype02;605775]Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.[/QUOTEave

I would have thought it was the opposite. There's an awful lot of Neolithic farmer and Caucasus in the Balkans. 

It's all difficult to untangle, I'll give you that. You have the European Middle Neolithic farmers, who were something like 80% Anatolian, or "Near Eastern" farmer, if you will, and 20% WHG. Then you have people like the Thracians and Illyrians who brought in steppe ancestry, but it was already mixed with MN farmer, and became progressively more diluted. Then you had some incursions by Gauls, but how long did they stay, and how much impact did they have? Plus, they also had, what, 40-50% MN by that time? 

Only much later later do you have the Slavs coming in, who, despite having much more steppe, also have their share of MN ancestry.

So, how do you apportion the percentage of more "northern" ancestry which the Slavic migrations introduced? 

I'd be interested to see averages of the major clusters in, say, Serbs, or Romanians, as well as Bulgarians, and compare them to actual "Slavs". Does Eurogenes provide public data about that in, say, K13 or K15 or even G25? Not that I would necessarily trust his data. He has a vested interest in inflating the "Slavic" percentage wherever possible.

I suppose the real way to know would be to compare ancient samples from the Balkans during the period of the Roman Republic and Early Empire (Dacians,Thracians, Illyrians) vs modern people. 

I was going to look it up in the old Dodecad spreadsheets, but the idiots have infected it with viruses of some kind.

----------


## Hawk

I used *ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS by Celtíbero Itálico*.

Target: Progon_scaled
Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925168

59.8
Early_European_Farmer



40.2
Steppe_Pastoralist





Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 0.8792% / 0.00879156

57.8
Early_European_Farmer



33.8
Steppe_Pastoralist



3.4
Western_Hunter-Gatherer



3.2
Iran_Neolithic



1.8
Early_Levantine_Farmer





Target: Italian_Liguria
Distance: 1.7346% / 0.01734632

55.8
Early_European_Farmer



35.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



6.2
Western_Hunter-Gatherer



1.8
Iberomaurusian



0.6
Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer



0.2
Africa_Mesolithic



0.2
Ancient_Dravidian





Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 1.0490% / 0.01049045

58.0
Early_European_Farmer



29.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



6.2
Iran_Neolithic



4.8
Early_Levantine_Farmer



1.8
Western_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0964% / 0.01096360

58.2
Early_European_Farmer



34.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



5.2
Iran_Neolithic



1.4
Western_Hunter-Gatherer



0.6
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



0.4
Early_Levantine_Farmer





Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.2071% / 0.01207146

62.2
Early_European_Farmer



28.8
Steppe_Pastoralist



4.8
Iran_Neolithic



2.2
Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer



1.4
Early_Levantine_Farmer



0.4
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



0.2
Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic





Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 2.5224% / 0.02522434

50.4
Early_European_Farmer



37.6
Steppe_Pastoralist



10.6
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



1.4
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: Serbian
Distance: 2.7144% / 0.02714450

50.8
Early_European_Farmer



36.4
Steppe_Pastoralist



9.8
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



3.0
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: Polish
Distance: 4.3662% / 0.04366247

37.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



35.2
Early_European_Farmer



25.0
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



2.6
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 4.6315% / 0.04631483

36.4
Steppe_Pastoralist



35.6
Early_European_Farmer



21.8
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



6.2
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: Macedonian
Distance: 2.7525% / 0.02752508

53.4
Early_European_Farmer



36.8
Steppe_Pastoralist



7.2
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



1.8
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer



0.8
Iran_Neolithic





Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.3001% / 0.02300116

52.6
Early_European_Farmer



32.6
Steppe_Pastoralist



7.4
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



3.6
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer



3.0
Iran_Neolithic



0.4
Ancient_Dravidian



0.4
Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic





Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5854% / 0.01585405

59.4
Early_European_Farmer



30.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



4.8
Iran_Neolithic



4.6
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer



0.4
Ancient_Dravidian



0.4
Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic



0.2
Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer

----------


## Hawk

Ancient samples.

Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.0660% / 0.01066039

73.6
Early_European_Farmer



11.8
Steppe_Pastoralist



8.8
Iran_Neolithic



4.6
Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer



0.8
Iberomaurusian



0.4
Early_Levantine_Farmer





Target: HRV_MBA
Distance: 1.7481% / 0.01748108

59.2
Early_European_Farmer



34.4
Steppe_Pastoralist



6.4
Western_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 2.1776% / 0.02177573

60.2
Early_European_Farmer



36.0
Steppe_Pastoralist



3.8
Western_Hunter-Gatherer





Target: HRV_EBA
Distance: 2.0039% / 0.02003875

59.0
Early_European_Farmer



31.2
Steppe_Pastoralist



4.2
Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer



3.4
Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer



1.2
Western_Hunter-Gatherer



1.0
Iberomaurusian





Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 1.9167% / 0.01916651

72.0
Early_European_Farmer



25.0
Steppe_Pastoralist



2.4
Iran_Neolithic



0.6
Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer



Target: CZE_Early_Slav
Distance: 3.3251% / 0.03325085

40.4
Steppe_Pastoralist



37.6
Early_European_Farmer



22.0
Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer

----------


## Hawk

Interestig, ~1% Iberomaurusian score among *HRV_EBA, Myceneans and Ligurians.


*Haven't seen in other calculators.

----------


## Jovialis

It is wrong.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
> Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.


Slavs were not native to the Balkans, at least not the south Balkans. If Steppe pastoralist was their primary genetic component when they settled in the Balkans, would they have not merely added to the Steppe component already present there? It seems very clear that at least as far as Greece and Albania, Slavs are not the main genetic contributors to modern populations. 

If the models presented above in this thread are close to accurate, a case can made for the importance of pre-Medieval populations in the genetic makeup of modern south Balkan populations.

----------


## Dema

> You want to disagree, at least produce some actual evidence. Don't give me superficial, and benighted explanations of PCAs, and haplogroups. Haplogroup J has been in Italy since the Neolithic, genius.


There is all the evidence you want. Behind my opinions is years of research and reading about this issue we are debating here. 
Its you who disagreed with me for some reason which is kinda obvious and if you have a problem with accepting genetic data then i am not sure that this is real hobby or profession for you. Even if i am wrong this is forum therefore its open for debate, i am very serious when typing here. I am open for debate and whatever i say, if you doubt anything, you can ask me for references and i will be very glad to give them to you if you doubt about anything i say. 

Regarding haplogroup J, i really researched it for years now, i doubt you know much about it ? Do you know which subclade of J were found since mid Neolithic ? So, its J2a-M410 Neolithic Anatolian farmers with earlier Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherer origin. They appeared in Neolithic Europe and were in vast minority among other Neolithic haplogroups but still much more concentrated in Greece. Both Mycenaean and Minoans were J2a-M410. Then in Middle Bronze Age another J appears, J2b-L283 this time, which according to many facts is early Zagros expansion to North Caucasus and Black Sea shores where it was picked up by R1b BA Indo-Europeans with who it later spread to rest of Europe, with biggest density around Adriatic Sea. This J2b-L283 is actually Dalmatian 1600 BCE sample I4331 which we are debating here. As you probably know this sample had a lot of Steppe admixture and typical Steppe mtDNA. They were early Indo-Europeans, we then find sample of same paternal line therefore his direct expansion 1000 years later at Etruscan's dating at 700 BCE. I would say another influx of J2a-M410 probably arrived also with Greek colonies in Italy at around 800 BCE. Where things become interesting is Imperial Period, so not long after Phoenician - Roman wars (Punic Wars) more J haplotypes appear. This time J1 and J2-M205, both confirmed with previous Canaanite/Phoenician origin and with this last influx Middle Eastern Phoenician but also Hebrew haplogroups J reaches above 50 % among Imperial Romans in Italy. Its very clear that this impact is mostly from Phoenicians who become part of Roman Empire after Punic Wars. 

You want proofs? NP, some time ago i analysed Italian Ydna project and plenty of studies with Italians specifically focusing on J haplogroup but also probably all major Balkan studies. I found plenty of samples but i also found researches where scientists also found plenty of samples where in Italy there are traces of Phoenician and Greek colonies. 

J1 is a bit complicated because of high TMRCA and since it diversified long ago it needs a deeper analysis of subclades but i can assure you that most of J1 subclades arrived with Phoenicians, Hebrews, Christians, or Middle Eastern citizens of Roman Empire. Just as Procopius of Caesarea was, author of book i am reading at the moment and that i mentioned earlier. He was native from province of Palaestina Prima and is considered last antique historian. Since time of Punic Wars to time of Justinian I and Procopius of Caesarea Romans and Middle Easterners were already regularly intermixing. Mostly because of Roman Empire and Mediterranean connection. 

J2-M205 on the other hand is much easier to track since it has TMRCA only 5900 years and it has ancient DNA in Middle East and in Phoenician Sidon in timeframe of 2500 BCE to 1700 BCE. Meaning they are without doubt of Middle Eastern Early Bronze Age origin. Regarding Europe we find it mostly in Mediterranean Europe.

For example let me show you two Phoenician Canaanite samples which assimilated into Romans:
*
Sample R50, 135-244 CE.
Belongs to branch J-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/ (TMRCA 3300 ybp, modern Lebanon and Egypt samples in Yfull)

Centocelle Necropolis, Rome (Suburbium)

The area of the ancient Centumcellae, in a south-eastern suburb of Rome, next to the Via Labicana (withinmodern day Centocelle, Rome), extends for more than 30 hectares and preserves a rich archaeologicalrecord ranging from the 6th century BCE to the 6th century CE. Among the many monuments and sites sofar investigated, the necropolis of Centocelle is associated with a Roman imperial Villa (Ad Duas Lauros)and is dated to the IV-V century CE.The necropolis consists of 61 inhumations and the individuals possibly pertained to the inhabitants of theVilla. The preliminary bioarchaeological survey is published in (124–127). Dietary analysis of theinhumated through compound specific isotope analyses (CSIA) performed on single amino acids iscurrently in progress. The human osteological material is currently stored at the Museo delle Civiltà inRome.



Sample R1283, 771-974 CE.
Belongs to J-M205>PF7321* (no specific branch) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7321/

Cancelleria - The Basilica of San Lorenzo in Damaso

The Basilica of San Lorenzo was erected by Pope Damaso (366-384 CE) in south-western CampoMarzio, reusing part of an architectural complex in which it is possible to recognize the buildings of thefactio prasina, one of the four factions of the circus (109–111). The Basilica, with three naves, occupied alarge area largely coinciding with that of the courtyard of the Palazzo della Cancelleria, in one of the mostcentral areas of Rome, halfway between Piazza Farnese and Piazza Navona.Probably as early as the sixth century CE there are numerous burials (subsequently reworked severaltimes) that are carried out in the area of the church, in particular in a vast environment located close to thesouth side of the building (112).A radical transformation of the Basilica is recorded in the second quarter of the 11th century CEfollowing a fire, of which extensive traces have been found. In addition to conspicuous transformations ofa structural nature, the floor of all the sections of the Basilica was raised by about 1 m. In the church,starting from this date until its destruction, numerous burials were built including several masonryossuaries. New changes to the structure of the church were made during the second half of the fifteenthcentury. The numismatic artifacts found have allowed us to date, at the beginning of the last quarter of thefifteenth century, a large mass grave in which hundreds of burials were deposited (SU17, SU30 andSU471). In the way of organizing the burials it is likely to recognize the effects of a plague epidemicwhich we know to have struck the city between 1476 and 1479 CE, a hypothesis that would also beconfirmed by the study of skeletal remains. In 1489 CE the building of the Palazzo della Cancelleriabegins and the church is totally destroyed. The population of this necropolis covers most of the MiddleAges and is representative of the population of Rome of this period.*

Then for example Roman Imperial J1 samples are also without doubt Phoenician origin. 

Phoenicians were mixing with Greeks prior then with Italians, that is why Greeks are also pulled to East Med cluster.

Do you know that both Greek and Latin alphabets have origin in Semitic Phoenician one ? Its obvious that this Mediterranean intermixing is going on for at least since 1000 BCE and looks like only North Italians were spared of it because of their distance to shores which Mediterranean populations always prefer. 

Look at this K15 PCA map and its so obvious that this Mediterranean Canaanite - Phoenician element is pulling Greeks, Albanians and Italians towards itself like some kind of Mediterranean gravitation:

(i added myself to map just out of curiosity but also i added what i think is Albanian average but of course it can be different)
So, East Med cluster pulling Albanians, Greeks, South Italians towards itself is main reason why their genetics changed most likely since 1000 BCE.
Again North Italians being so North were spared of this therefore they remained somewhat closer to I4331 Dalmatian 1600 BCE sample.


 






> I have no problem, with anything that the genetic studies show. I post many PCAs demonstrating genetic distances between populations, from various calculators all the time. Attacking my integrity is uncalled for. You already admitted you don't read academic papers, which is obvious. Don't be so reticent on your feelings about certain groups, because that is obvious as well. 
> 
> *I am not going to allow you to promote stupidity here. Keep it up, and you're gone.*


I read plenty of researches and analysed raw data where i found plenty of inconsistency with how the actual researches interpreted this data.
So many researches were simply a wishful thinking and i can point you to plenty of them which obviously were wrong conclusions brought by researches out of various reasons. So dont take for granted everything these researches say without questioning or double checking raw data and everything yourself.

I said that i didnt read researches lately, actually i red many researches until now and analysed raw data as STRs or even SNPs lately. 

Its not nice from you to threat me with ban only because i say something that you might be sensitive to. I also pointed Maciamo for being wrong many times, but i never seen him to threat people to ban them because they have different opinion. 

Read my previous post, i show my own autosomal, i said strait away that i am Slavic admix and i could not care less, my most favorite part of my DNA is my none european DNA, 1 % North African and 1 % Middle East. Rest is classic Balkan. I have no agenda whatsoever and i would not care the slightest whatever results say even if i was from Mars or Jupiter i would not care...

----------


## Dema

> *
> Sample R50, 135-244 CE.
> Belongs to branch J-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/ (TMRCA 3300 ybp, modern Lebanon and Egypt samples in Yfull)
> 
> Centocelle Necropolis, Rome (Suburbium)
> 
> *


His Gedmatch results:

*Calculating Population Admixture - dv3 [K=12]*

*2.14% East_European
16.23% West_European
41.01% Mediterranean*
0.00% Neo_African
*28.51% West_Asian*
0.00% South_Asian
0.14% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.07% East_African
*11.84% Southwest_Asian*
0.02% Northwest_African
0.04% Palaeo_African


*Calculating Population Admixture - eurogenes [K=36]*

0.00% Amerindian
*1.95% Arabian
6.23% Armenian*
0.00% Basque
0.00% Central_African
0.00% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
*4.87% East_Balkan*
0.00% East_Central_Asian
0.13% East_Central_Euro
*23.81% East_Med*
0.00% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Fennoscandian
*4.23% French*
*10.09% Iberian*
0.00% Indo-Chinese
*26.91% Italian*
0.00% Malayan
*9.25% Near_Eastern*
0.00% North_African
0.22% North_Atlantic
0.00% North_Caucasian
0.00% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.00% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
*4.64% West_Caucasian
7.67% West_Med*


*Calculating Population Admixture - globe13 [K=13]*


0.01% Siberian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% West_African
0.05% Palaeo_African
*18.91% Southwest_Asian*
0.00% East_Asian
*38.66% Mediterranean*
0.16% Australasian
0.00% Arctic
*26.98% West_Asian
15.23% North_European*
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% East_African

----------


## Jovialis

> There is all the evidence you want. Behind my opinions is years of research and reading about this issue we are debating here. 
> Its you who disagreed with me for some reason which is kinda obvious and if you have a problem with accepting genetic data then i am not sure that this is real hobby or profession for you. Even if i am wrong this is forum therefore its open for debate, i am very serious when typing here. I am open for debate and whatever i say, if you doubt anything, you can ask me for references and i will be very glad to give them to you if you doubt about anything i say. 
> 
> Regarding haplogroup J, i really researched it for years now, i doubt you know much about it ? Do you know which subclade of J were found since mid Neolithic ? So, its J2a-M410 Neolithic Anatolian farmers with earlier Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherer origin. They appeared in Neolithic Europe and were in vast minority among other Neolithic haplogroups but still much more concentrated in Greece. Both Mycenaean and Minoans were J2a-M410. Then in Middle Bronze Age another J appears, J2b-L283 this time, which according to many facts is early Zagros expansion to North Caucasus and Black Sea shores where it was picked up by R1b BA Indo-Europeans with who it later spread to rest of Europe, with biggest density around Adriatic Sea. This J2b-L283 is actually Dalmatian 1600 BCE sample I4331 which we are debating here. As you probably know this sample had a lot of Steppe admixture and typical Steppe mtDNA. They were early Indo-Europeans, we then find sample of same paternal line therefore his direct expansion 1000 years later at Etruscan's dating at 700 BCE. I would say another influx of J2a-M410 probably arrived also with Greek colonies in Italy at around 800 BCE. Where things become interesting is Imperial Period, so not long after Phoenician - Roman wars (Punic Wars) more J haplotypes appear. This time J1 and J2-M205, both confirmed with previous Canaanite/Phoenician origin and with this last influx Middle Eastern Phoenician but also Hebrew haplogroups J reaches above 50 % among Imperial Romans in Italy. Its very clear that this impact is mostly from Phoenicians who become part of Roman Empire after Punic Wars. 
> 
> You want proofs? NP, some time ago i analysed Italian Ydna project and plenty of studies with Italians specifically focusing on J haplogroup but also probably all major Balkan studies. I found plenty of samples but i also found researches where scientists also found plenty of samples where in Italy there are traces of Phoenician and Greek colonies. 
> 
> J1 is a bit complicated because of high TMRCA and since it diversified long ago it needs a deeper analysis of subclades but i can assure you that most of J1 subclades arrived with Phoenicians, Hebrews, Christians, or Middle Eastern citizens of Roman Empire. Just as Procopius of Caesarea was, author of book i am reading at the moment and that i mentioned earlier. He was native from province of Palaestina Prima and is considered last antique historian. Since time of Punic Wars to time of Justinian I and Procopius of Caesarea Romans and Middle Easterners were already regularly intermixing. Mostly because of Roman Empire and Mediterranean connection. 
> 
> ...



What is this garbage? This is not proof of anything, except your own ignorance. Where are the papers that verify these claims? I could care less about what YOUR interpretation is. I posted four recent papers on the topic, in my last post. Are you denying the existence of the Anatolian Bronze age? Because it seems that you are to fit your flawed conclusion.

Imperial Roman samples come from two isolated grave sites outside of Rome, that what does that have to say of southern Italy? Absolutely nothing. Moreover, many of them cluster with Island Greeks, not middle easterners.

Earth to Dema, there wasn't any substantial admixture into Greeks or Mainland Italians from the Phoenicians.

Also, for the last time, Eastern Mediterranean is not a valid term. I doubt you are as serious about this hobby as you claim to be, since you are using inaccurate terminology.

Here, I will retort with exactly what I posted prior, so anyone reading this will not be lead astray by your inferior quality post:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post605746

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> I used *ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS by Celtíbero Itálico*.
> 
> Target: Progon_scaled
> Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925168
> 
> 59.8
> Early_European_Farmer
> 
> 
> ...


Beautifully presented models. Are these considered accurate, and if not, are there other models to challenge these?

----------


## bigsnake49

> Ancient samples.
> 
> Target: GRC_Mycenaean
> Distance: 1.0660% / 0.01066039
> 
> 73.6
> Early_European_Farmer
> 
> 
> ...


What calculator are you using, @progon?

----------


## Jovialis

@Dema,

Take a look at the chart by the Medieval period. No J1 to be accounted for, the same study you had cited.

Like I said prior, and it should be well known by now, the Imperial Roman samples are mostly taken from two cemeteries that were made up of foreigners, outside of the city of Rome. Not people representative of the Italian population as a whole. These groups had went extinct after the fall of the Empire, because there wasn't consistent immigration. The land was reclaimed by people from the hinterlands. The J2, and E are probably representative of Italy's long standing Greek/Greek-like population in the South, that had arrived in central Italy, after the Romans, unified the peninsula.

----------


## Hawk

> He prefers the modeling because it makes him:
> 
> Target: Progon_scaled
> Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925168
> 
> 59.8
> Early_European_Farmer
> 
> 
> ...


I just saw a ready one made by http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/ULTIM...COMPONENTS.htm and it's the first time i am seeing this model lol.

This is the ancient samples which are taken more in consideration, but anyway, similar results. The Tepecik_Ciftlig is used as sort of a proxy, Anatolian farmer with CHG/Iranian influences. IMO, all of these tools are very cheap, and not to be taken seriously. Probably they are made of some shitty Python scripts/modules, but anyway, more or less on a more generic sense they can tell a story.




> Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
> Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,0.108701,0.1731478,-0.0143308,-0.100534,0.0270818,-0.0402298,-0.0045828,-0.005019,0.02623,0.05745,0.008444,0.0080555,-0.0101832,0.0052298,-0.0352192,-0.0104748,0.0088662,0.0004432,0.005342,-0.0032828,0.0026827,0.0044515,-0.0071795,-0.0038258,-0.0045805
> GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
> IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
> Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
> Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
> WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
> Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972 329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524 476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949
> RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0227646,-0.4480516,0.0728598,-0.052972,-0.0414846,-0.0407738,0.005264,0.011215,0.0075266,0.021431,-0.0507624,-0.005665,0.0027948,0.0100466,-0.0100162,-0.0120658,-0.0043026,0.0060558,0.0153102,0.0099798,0.0104566,-0.0287366,-0.0196458,-0.0016628,-0.0099152


Target: Progon_scaled
Distance: 2.7672% / 0.02767175

47.6
Anatolia_Barcin_N



37.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



13.6
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



1.8
Baltic_LVA_HG







> What calculator are you using, @progon?


http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/ULTIM...COMPONENTS.htm

----------


## Hawk

> Beautifully presented models. Are these considered accurate, and if not, are there other models to challenge these?


It's just an unofficial model, one of so many. But, more or less i am cautious in taking all of these amateur calculators seriously. They might be good to some degree, but for more advanced conclusions they shouldn't be taken seriously at all.

----------


## Jovialis

Can we even confirm if I3313 is actually Illyrian? I searched for the word in the study it is from, and found no results. I would like to see some confirmation on the archeological designation. MTA has made mistakes before.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eastern_Europe

As I said before, I believe the predecessors of Albanians, were Greek/Southern Italian-like, and were pulled north/east towards their modern position, due to Slavic admixture.

Perhaps the actual Illyrians were Greek/South Italian-like, like the Mycenaeans:

----------


## Angela

> Can we even confirm if I3313 is actually Illyrian? I searched for the word in the study it is from, and found no results. I would like to see some confirmation on the archeological designation. MTA has made mistakes before.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eastern_Europe
> 
> As I said before, I believe the predecessors of Albanians, were Greek/Southern Italian-like, and were pulled north/east towards their modern position, due to Slavic admixture.
> 
> Perhaps the actual Illyrians were Greek/South Italian-like, like the Mycenaeans:


I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over. 

I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.

----------


## ihype02

> I would have thought it was the opposite. There's an awful lot of Neolithic farmer and Caucasus in the Balkans. 
> 
> It's all difficult to untangle, I'll give you that. You have the European Middle Neolithic farmers, who were something like 80% Anatolian, or "Near Eastern" farmer, if you will, and 20% WHG. Then you have people like the Thracians and Illyrians who brought in steppe ancestry, but it was already mixed with MN farmer, and became progressively more diluted. Then you had some incursions by Gauls, but how long did they stay, and how much impact did they have? Plus, they also had, what, 40-50% MN by that time? 
> 
> Only much later later do you have the Slavs coming in, who, despite having much more steppe, also have their share of MN ancestry.
> 
> So, how do you apportion the percentage of more "northern" ancestry which the Slavic migrations introduced? 
> 
> I'd be interested to see averages of the major clusters in, say, Serbs, or Romanians, as well as Bulgarians, and compare them to actual "Slavs". Does Eurogenes provide public data about that in, say, K13 or K15 or even G25? Not that I would necessarily trust his data. He has a vested interest in inflating the "Slavic" percentage wherever possible.
> ...


I know that the northern shift is not exclusive due to Slavic migration but the vast majority of it is. Many Anatolians were settled in Macedonia and Thrace which were gradually Bulgarized and Hellenized, so it's not that the southern impact of, say, Bulgarians is entirely native either.
In general I think that Anatolians and others helped the southern impact of the Bulgarians more than the for example Goths or other northern European who were not Slavs helped the Slavic shift.

----------


## ihype02

> Can we even confirm if I3313 is actually Illyrian? I searched for the word in the study it is from, and found no results. I would like to see some confirmation on the archeological designation. MTA has made mistakes before.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eastern_Europe
> 
> As I said before, I believe the predecessors of Albanians, were Greek/Southern Italian-like, and were pulled north/east towards their modern position, due to Slavic admixture.
> 
> Perhaps the actual Illyrians were Greek/South Italian-like, like the Mycenaeans:


The sourthern ones most likely were but we need data. Thracians are too ancient Greek-like to be the ancestors of Albanians, which inflates the autosomal Slavic impact, especially in Ghegs. I would assume Dacians to cluster with Albanians and Thessalians, which minimizes the Slavic component. So I believe the original ancestors of the Albanians might be central Illyrians, somewhere in Montenegro, who will end up plotting really close to Tuscans + 5% Sardian shift I suppose. 

Albanians might also be mixed population of Bergamo-like Illyrians and Thracians for all we know.

----------


## ihype02

> Slavs were not native to the Balkans, at least not the south Balkans. If Steppe pastoralist was their primary genetic component when they settled in the Balkans, would they have not merely added to the Steppe component already present there? It seems very clear that at least as far as Greece and Albania, Slavs are not the main genetic contributors to modern populations. 
> 
> If the models presented above in this thread are close to accurate, a case can made for the importance of pre-Medieval populations in the genetic makeup of modern south Balkan populations.


Well, I said South Slavs not Albanians and Greeks.

I think the idea that Slavs that occupied the South Balkans were nothing like Poles comes from the fact that most people assumed South Slavs to be very similar to native Balkanic population, which they clearly aren't.

----------


## Duarte

> I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over. 
> 
> I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.


Hi Angela. I don't want to get involved in this discussion but, IMO, I think that the nomenclature given by the MTA for these samples is not very adequate. It should be ‘Dalmatia BA’ and not Illyrian/Dalmatia. The label ‘Dalmatia BA’ is presented in BAM files stored in the ENA by the paper’s authors. The nomenclature of MTA is a innovation.
Cheers. ;)

----------


## Angela

@Dema,
R 850 is a Phoenician? Where on earth do you get that? Are you aware that the modern Lebanese are very close descendants of the Canaanites/Phoenicians? Do you see them anywhere on this list of closest modern populations from Eurogenes K13, who never gets Near Easterners right, or Italians, for that matter? It's either deliberate or incompetence. You're aware, yes, that the Dodecanese is off the coast of Anatolia?

Distance to:
R850_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Iron_Age

4.12800497
Greek_Dodecanese

5.35067285
Greek_Chios

6.26520550
Calabria

6.35148014
Greek_Symi_Island

7.40556547
Malta

8.29838539
Turk_Cypriot

8.47106841
Sicily

8.53762262
East_Sicilian

8.62302151
Sephardic_Jewish

9.30844778
Campania

9.46088262
Algerian_Jewish

9.58992179
Central_Greek

10.57814729
Italian_Jewish

10.61534738
Apulia

10.67247862
Ashkenazi

11.03320896
Tunisian_Jewish

11.27887849
Cyprian

11.27887849
Greek_Cypriot

11.56409962
Basilicata

11.56547448
Molise

11.62612145
Libyan_Jewish

11.84490608
Greek_Andros_Island

12.31438996
Abruzzo

12.83437572
Moroccan_Jew

13.40095146
Greek_Cappadocian



Let’s look at Dodecad

Distance to:
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea

3.90799181
Greek_Crete

7.13377179
Ashkenazy_Jews

7.63860109
Italy_Calabria

7.74058137
Sephardic_Jews

7.82175172
Ashkenazi

10.04684154
Italy_Sicily

10.57089239
Italy_Campania

10.88449356
Greek_Cappadocia

11.39101962
Italy_Apulia

11.86263040
Cypriots

12.08694751
Nusayri_Turkey

12.19292418
Morocco_Jews

12.92056940
Italy_Abruzzo

13.12759689
Crimean_Tatar_Coast

13.17106678
Turk_West_BlackSea

13.49063008
Turk_Central_West

14.16544387
Greek

14.43175665
Turk_Central_East

14.45064012
Turk_Anatolia

15.19421600
Turk_Southwest

15.21064759
Lebanese

15.74333510
Turk_Northwest

15.93597503
Turk_South

15.96534685
Turk_Central_Black_Sea

16.59878610
Turk_Southeast


That makes the most sense and was, I believe, also the conclusion of the paper.

You're aware, yes, that there were no Ashkenazi Jews at that time, and they're a more recent population which is anywhere from 40-60% European?

Did you also somehow miss this from Antonio et al? Who could look at that and say...PHOENICIAN????




Obviously ludicrous claims like that make everything you say not only subject to ridicule, but undeserving of reasoned responses.

I will also point out once again some fundamental facts about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. You have presented absolutely no historical or archaeological proof that the Greeks admixed with either group. When you make such claims absent proof, it’s not debate, it’s misinformation and t-rolling, and that isn’t permitted here.

In terms of Italians, the only Phoenician/Carthaginian settlements were, to repeat, on the northwestern part of Sicily and the southwestern part of Sardinia. 

There was no war with Phoenicia. There were the Punic Wars with the Carthaginians, who were different people, with only the elites probably of Levantine origin. The rest of them would have been partly or mostly Berber. Now, you seem to have your dates confused as well. The Punic Wars have nothing to do with the middle to late Empire and any supposed genetic changes to the actual natives. The Carthaginians, much less the Phoenicians, didn’t exist by that time. The Punic Wars, for your information, occurred from 264 to 146 BC. 

So, you seem to be implying an admixture with Phoenicians, who were actually Carthaginians, during the period of the Empire, when it was actually the Republic. During the course of those wars, indeed some of the “Carthaginian” soldiers were probably enslaved, and perhaps brought back to Italy, although they could have been bought all over the Empire. The bigger problem is that the VAST majority of the Carthaginian troops were not Carthaginians, much less Phoenicians; there were never enough of them, because they were mainly just elite traders. Probably most of the troops were, from the historical record, Spaniards and Alpine people and north Italians, including my Ligures. See the problem with your reasoning? This is what comes of not knowing any history.

Now, as to J2-M205, how the heck do you know where it formed?

I can’t figure out what, apart from the typical Albanian desire to t-roll Greeks could lead you to this conclusion, unless it’s that you still haven’t grasped or understood the fundamental principle in population genetics that y dna DOES NOT DETERMINE ETHNICITY.

You do the same thing with J2b- I don’t know where it was first picked up and spread from, and I don’t care, but Albanians don’t own it and nor did the Illyrians. The fact that it shows up amongst Etruscans and modern Italians doesn’t mean “Illyrians” brought it there or that Etruscans were Illyrians. Certainly, Albanians don’t have anything to do with it. I realize that you were all taught you were the descendants of the Illyrians, but you’re certainly not very close to the samples we currently have, and are much further from them than are Italians, so let it go; it just makes you all look ridiculous.

Leaving all that aside, how could you possibly conclude that all the J2-M205 in Italy or Greece or anywhere else in Europe only comes from the Levant? Haven’t you done the least bit of unbiased research? Don't you realize how much came from Anatolia to Greece, and perhaps particularly, to Crete?

Don’t you see that your conclusions are not grounded in unbiased fact?

As for those ridiculous models, who made them? Was it Sikeliot acting as Portuguese Princess, or that card carrying Skin Head, Stormfront member Drac who used to regularly threaten me on this site?

You really have to start hanging around with a better class of people.

Everyone else can do as they wish, but I will no longer debate these issues with someone seemingly blithely drawing conclusions based on absolutely no actual facts.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> Well, I said South Slavs not Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> I think the idea that Slavs that occupied the South Balkans were nothing like Poles comes from the fact that most people assumed South Slavs to be very similar to native Balkanic population, which they clearly aren't.


According to the Lazaridis Mycenaean study, Anatolia Neolithic appears to be stronger in south Balkan populations than further north. Bronze Age Steppe also appears to be strong in certain places in the Balkans.

EE5207E2-E239-464D-A660-0CFBF4BA2D6A.jpg4574F581-D4DB-4793-9135-C960D8535ADD.jpg

----------


## Angela

What Kool-Aid have you people been drinking?

By all means compare the totals for Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Atlantic Med of the "South Slavs" like the Romanians (and all the rest) and, say, real Slavs like the Russians. You people have got to be kidding. At MOST it's about 25%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1797482804

----------


## Jovialis

> @Dema,
> R 850 is a Phoenician? Where on earth do you get that? Are you aware that the modern Lebanese are very close descendants of the Canaanites/Phoenicians? Do you see them anywhere on this list of closest modern populations from Eurogenes K13, who never gets Near Easterners right, or Italians, for that matter? It's either deliberate or incompetence. You're aware, yes, that the Dodecanese is off the coast of Anatolia?
> 
> Distance to:
> R850_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Iron_Age
> 
> 4.12800497
> Greek_Dodecanese
> 
> ...



Indeed, the authors of Antonio et al. 2019, were clear when they modeled the Iron Age sample R850, with Anatolian_ChL. It clusters with ABA, from Raveane et al. 2019. We can see from the PCA it certainly consistent with de Barros Damgaard et al. 2018's modeling of Bronze Age and Copper Age Anatolians.



This is what pulls Mediterranean populations into be where they are, not this nonsense eurogenes invention of "Eastern Mediterranean", which is code for modern middle eastern populations. ABA is a formative component of mediterreanean people in the Bronze age; a merger of Western Anatolian, and Caucasian. Just like Steppe is a merger of EHG, and Caucasian. ABA, and Steppe moved into Europe and mixed with EEF and each other, to give rise to Iron Age and Classical people of Europe.

Middle easterners have ABA too, but are also formed from prior populations from before ABA arrived.

It is not a hard concept to grasp, unless these people are seriously low-IQ. Otherwise they are t-rolling for some perverse reason, that makes them feel better living with their fundemental inadequacies.

----------


## Hawk

> I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over. 
> 
> I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.


Well, i mentioned before statistically it looks like Illyrians from Albania will be as distant as HRV_IA or even more distant. I suspect they will be like Tsakonians/Maniots-like or Central Italians.

Slavic Y-DNA couldn't survive among Northern Albanians due to their tribalism, instead it survived better in South Albania. I think percentage-wise in South Albania paternally it reaches ~25%.

btw, i have heard we will have results from an archeological site of Albania, Maliq Korca, it looks like an early bronze age site, not sure.

----------


## blevins13

> I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over. 
> 
> I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.


Currently I match closer with “Roman” samples from the Balkans in MTA but I don’t believe this is true considering Y-Dna......in addition urnfield culture top match came up. So it seems exiting..... I will wait for more samples to see truth revealed. Am I going to breakdown... and calling for Mama, “Italian style”, on unexpected outcome, certainly not.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## ihype02

> What Kool-Aid have you people been drinking?
> 
> By all means compare the totals for Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Atlantic Med of the "South Slavs" like the Romanians (and all the rest) and, say, real Slavs like the Russians. You people have got to be kidding. At MOST it's about 25%.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1797482804


I don't know if you are reffering to me. But I think you misunderstood me.
You said that the northern shift of South Slavs cannot be attributed entirely to Slavs which is true, and then I said that Thracian shift of the Bulgarians cannot be attributed entirely to Thracians, because some of it might Anatolian, but I never said that South Slavs are essentially Anatolian or anything like that. 

Just some random models:
"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian_-_Bulgaria1",
"fit": 2.48,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45,
"BGR_IA": 30,
*"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,
*
"sample": "Test2:Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6",
"fit": 2.265,
"BGR_IA": 47.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 40.83,
*"GRC_Mycenaean": 11.67,
*
"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian",
"fit": 1.6074,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 38.33,
"BGR_IA": 31.67,
*"Anatolia_IA": 10,
*"GRC_Mycenaean": 10,
"HUN_BA": 8.33,
"Hun_Tian_Shan": 1.67,
*

*

----------


## Angela

> Currently I match closer with “Roman” samples from the Balkans in MTA but I don’t believe this is true considering Y-Dna......in addition urnfield culture top match came up. So it seems exiting..... I will wait for more samples to see truth revealed. Am I going to breakdown... and calling for Mama, “Italian style”, on unexpected outcome, certainly not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


One more ethnic slur, buddy, and you're banned for life. Am I clear?

You really want to start this???

If it weren't for the fact that there are some decent Albanian posters here whom I wouldn't want to offend I could go off on you even more. You really want to compare Italy and Albania?

CUT IT OUT, and don't ruin it for them too.

I can't remember how many times I have stopped other Balkanites from t-rolling Albanians and this is the crap I get in return. What's wrong with you?

----------


## Angela

> Well, i mentioned before statistically it looks like Illyrians from Albania will be as distant as HRV_IA or even more distant. I suspect they will be like Tsakonians/Maniots-like or Central Italians.
> 
> Slavic Y-DNA couldn't survive among Northern Albanians due to their tribalism, instead it survived better in South Albania. I think percentage-wise in South Albania paternally it reaches ~25%.
> 
> btw, i have heard we will have results from an archeological site of Albania, Maliq Korca, it looks like an early bronze age site, not sure.


I don't know what the actual "Illyrians" of the Roman Republic Era will be like, but that's not an unreasonable speculation. The only thing that will tell us is ancient dna so I'm also looking forward to the coming results.

----------


## kingjohn

[QUOTE=Angela;605788]


> Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
> Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.[/QUOTEave
> 
> I would have thought it was the opposite. There's an awful lot of Neolithic farmer and Caucasus in the Balkans. 
> 
> It's all difficult to untangle, I'll give you that. You have the European Middle Neolithic farmers, who were something like 80% Anatolian, or "Near Eastern" farmer, if you will, and 20% WHG. Then you have people like the Thracians and Illyrians who brought in steppe ancestry, but it was already mixed with MN farmer, and became progressively more diluted. Then you had some incursions by Gauls, but how long did they stay, and how much impact did they have? Plus, they also had, what, 40-50% MN by that time? 
> 
> Only much later later do you have the Slavs coming in, who, despite having much more steppe, also have their share of MN ancestry.
> 
> ...


angela i am 1/4 bulgarian 
and i score 11% east europe in ftdna my origins 2.0 
so i guess a full bulgarian might score close to 40% east europe in my origins 2.0 
the *slavic* *elements* is there in modern bulgarians 
afcorse they are different from russians and other north slavs 
but they still have slavic dna and not so low ..... :Thinking: 
let us remember the thracian iron age sample I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria (500-400 BC she doesn't score east central euro and central euro in eurogenes k36 
which modern bulgarian do score ......
so the* slavic signature* is there in modern bulgarian

----------


## Angela

> I don't know if you are reffering to me. But I think you misunderstood me.
> You said that the northern shift of South Slavs cannot be attributed entirely to Slavs which is true, and then I said that Thracian shift of the Bulgarians cannot be attributed entirely to Thracians, because some of it might Anatolian, but I never said that South Slavs are essentially Anatolian or anything like that. 
> 
> Just some random models:
> "sample": "Test1:Bulgarian_-_Bulgaria1",
> "fit": 2.48,
> "HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45,
> "BGR_IA": 30,
> *"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,
> ...


No, Ihype, I wasn't referring to you, but I do completely disagree with you, and with that modeling. I don't know where you got it, but it makes no sense to me as to the overall genetics of Balkan people.

My point was that while many Balkanites may speak a Slavic language, they are not by any stretch of the imagination "Slavs", imo. 

My reasoning is in part based on the excel sheet to which I linked in post Number 110.

As I suggested in that post, just add up the numbers for Atlantic Med (which is basically a stand in for EEF and WHG), Caucasus, and South West Asian for each population. Conveniently, Romanians come right before Russians in the sheet, but do it for all of them if you wish, including Albanians. Then compare the numbers versus the numbers for "real" Slavs, like Russians and Poles. 

I have no idea how people could have gotten the idea that the Balkans doesn't have a lot of Caucasus. As Jovialis pointed out, there is obviously Anatolian Bronze Age input into the Balkans,and it may have even begun in the Chalcolithic.

Now, I know the Slavs had their own percentage of Atlantic Med, and Northern European in that analysis includes Germanic as well, so this is not a sophisticated analysis, but I think it's pretty suggestive. 

The "Slavic" input is the minority input in my opinion, although the answer will come only when we have an invasion era migrating "Slav" to whom we can compare both the pre-existing population and modern populations.

Do I think the Slavs had more impact on most of the Balkans than, say, the Langobards on Italy? Yes, I do, but the extent,imo, for countries like Bulgaria, Romania, and even Serbia, is, imo, exaggerated. 

As for Albanians, for the sake of the discussion, if it's true that the Roman Era Illyrians were, say, perhaps Central Italian like (which I absolutely don't know), then the Slavic input did move them, but not tremendously far. They are as southern shifted as Tuscans, but shifted east because of the Slavic input. 

Now, given we don't have the "right" ancient samples yet, this may be wrong, but given what we have, this is how I currently see it.

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=kingjohn;605857]


> angela i am 1/4 bulgarian 
> and i score 11% east europe in ftdna my origins 2.0 
> so i guess a full bulgarian might score close to 40% east europe in my origins 2.0 
> the *slavic* *elements* is there in modern bulgarians 
> afcorse they are different from russians and other north slavs 
> but they still have slavic dna and not so low .....
> let us remember the thracian iron age sample I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria (500-400 BC she doesn't score east central euro and central euro in eurogenes k36 
> which modern bulgarian do score ......
> so the* slavic signature* is there in modern bulgarian


I don't at all doubt the Slavic signature is there. It is NOT, however, the majority of the ancestry even at 40%, which I think is too high. 

My objection was to these comments that there was more Slav in Balkanites than there was of the pre-existing population. Looking at their autosomal make-up that's impossible, imo.

No offense, also, but FTDNA is just awful. I wouldn't rely on their numbers at all.

----------


## ihype02

> No, Ihype, I wasn't referring to you, but I do completely disagree with you, and with that modeling. I don't know where you got it, but it makes no sense to me as to the overall genetics of Balkan people.
> 
> My point was that while many Balkanites may speak a Slavic language, they are not by any stretch of the imagination "Slavs", imo. 
> 
> My reasoning is in part based on the excel sheet to which I linked in post Number 110.
> 
> As I suggested in that post, just add up the numbers for Atlantic Med (which is basically a stand in for EEF and WHG), Caucasus, and South West Asian for each population. Conveniently, Romanians come right before Russians in the sheet, but do it for all of them if you wish, including Albanians. Then compare the numbers versus the numbers for "real" Slavs, like Russians and Poles. 
> 
> I have no idea how people could have gotten the idea that the Balkans doesn't have a lot of Caucasus. As Jovialis pointed out, there is obviously Anatolian Bronze Age input into the Balkans,and it may have even begun in the Chalcolithic.
> ...


The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.

As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.

The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them

----------


## kingjohn

[QUOTE=Angela;605859]


> *I don't at all doubt the Slavic signature is there*. It is NOT, however, *the majority of the ancestry even at 40%, which I think is too high.* 
> 
> My objection was to these comments that there was more Slav in Balkanites than there was of the pre-existing population. Looking at their autosomal make-up that's impossible, imo.
> 
> No offense, also, but FTDNA is just awful. I wouldn't rely on their numbers at all.


at least we agree on that  :Cool V: 
if many tests telling you the same thing it is there ....
from dna tribes, to ftdna , my heritage , even k29 in geneplazza detect the slavic signatures....
but i do agree with you that *slavic elements* are less than the dna of the thracians who where before or EEF before them 


p.s
*culture* is also important those* slavic invaders* gave the bulgarians there language  :Smile: 
it is like modern turk from anatolia carry* turkic genetic* *signatures* that wasn't high 
but gave the Anatolian *the turkic language* they speak now

----------


## Angela

> The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.
> As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.
> The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them


Croats are the most Slavic admixed people in the Balkans from every analysis I've ever seen.

----------


## Dema

> Can we even confirm if I3313 is actually Illyrian? I searched for the word in the study it is from, and found no results. I would like to see some confirmation on the archeological designation. MTA has made mistakes before.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...eastern_Europe
> 
> As I said before, I believe the predecessors of Albanians, were Greek/Southern Italian-like, and were pulled north/east towards their modern position, due to Slavic admixture.
> 
> Perhaps the actual Illyrians were Greek/South Italian-like, like the Mycenaeans:



Dear Jovialis, I3313 is female. She was from period of 1500 - 900 BCE in Dalmatia. I doubt that any researcher who is serious enough would classify these samples as Illyrian. They were too early to be Illyrians as we know them. She was probably closer to 1500 BCE then to 900 BCE. However these are people that will later develop into Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as Etruscans for example since Etruscans for example are confirmed by aDNA so its not guessing. Illyrians never occupied Italy and conquered its mainlands. It was Indo-Europeans.

Sample I4331 was male from 1700 - 1500 BCE also from Dalmatia. He belonged to haplogroup J2-L283. He left no direct descendants, but closest significant group to him is found among J2-L283 Albanians where this haplotype can go up to 25 - 30 percent. They share same ancestor with him in time-frame of 4400 ybp, according to Yfull calculation. 

He was by most reasonable theory which is backup by quite a few facts a Zagros mountain Hunter-Gatherer which anywhere from 15 000 ybp to 5 000 ybp expanded to North Caucasus and Black Sea, and there they were most likely picked up by R1b Bronze Age Indo-European tribes and expanded to Europe.

Here you can find solid information about these two samples: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/














> @Dema,
> R 850 is a Phoenician? Where on earth do you get that? Are you aware that the modern Lebanese are very close descendants of the Canaanites/Phoenicians? Do you see them anywhere on this list of closest modern populations from Eurogenes K13, who never gets Near Easterners right, or Italians, for that matter? It's either deliberate or incompetence. You're aware, yes, that the Dodecanese is off the coast of Anatolia?
> 
> Distance to:
> R850_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Iron_Age
> 
> 4.12800497
> Greek_Dodecanese
> 
> ...





Dear Angela,

I gave two examples from study of Ancient Rome that are for sure of Semitic/Canaanite and most likely of Phoenician origin. 
However i didnt mention sample R850 anywhere but rather samples: R50 and R1283 which both belong to haplogroup J2-M205 therefore without doubt of previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite Phoenician origin. R50 autosomal is mix of Middle East and Italian. 

Haplogroups J2-M205 and J2-L283 are kinda easy to research because of their lower TMRCA and ancient bones found relatively at same time period as their TMRCA therefore its not hard to pinpoint their origin.

https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibl...ph1089-y22066/

Haplogroup J2-M205 has its oldest ancient DNA in Israel 2500 BCE, Jordan 2500 BCE, Canaanite Phoenician graves in ancient Sidon 1700 BCE.
J2-M205 TMRCA is 5900 ybp, its very easy to see where this haplogroup spread from. Highest percentage in the world of J2-M205 is in Cypriot Greeks, around 6 %. By study about Cyprus population, researchers concluded that Cypriot J2-M205 is most likely of pre-Greek strata. Cypriots are very close to Lebanese therefore everything is very clear.

Btw i dont say that only Phoenician admix pushes Mediterraneans to this position but also early Christians, Jews, Middle Eastern citizens of Roman Empire, but also Mediterranean connection which always provided good trades and chances of combining all this further together.
By my opinion this Mediterranean admix started to occur somewhere at 1000 BCE and was going on until end of Byzantine Empire.

Also Angela we are not betting on Roman Era Illyrians even tho they would not be bad choice also. I say anything from 500 BCE to 500 CE. 300 BCE Illyrians would be the best since they would be of pre-Roman occupation, and they were a lot influenced by earlier Greek colonies therefore it would not surprise me if they will be closer to South Italians, Albanians, and Central Greeks. I put my two cents that Albanians will be closest match.

----------


## kingjohn

> The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one *maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection*. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.
> As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.
> The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them



well modern bulgarians cluster closest with ( southern romanians) autosomally speaking  :Thinking: 

p.s
*might* be connected to the *thracian dacian unity genetic* *signature*

----------


## Dema

Regarding Etruscan 700 BCE sample which was expansion of Dalmatian 1700 BCE sample. So, If Dalmatian sample is really Indo-European expansion and if Etruscans were pre-IE population its possible that at this period of 700 BCE Etruscans already mixed with Indo-Europeans and that this sample does not represent original Etruscans.

It would need more Etruscan ancient bones to see what is their real origin.

J2-L283 origin is not 100 % known, they either arrived with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans or they arrived independently a bit earlier and then got assimilated by incoming Bronze Age Indo-Europeans. But judging by these two Dalmatian samples mtDNA and autosomal, they most likely arrived with Bronze-Age Indo-European expansion.

----------


## Hawk

Don't forget the Nuragic sample late bronze age. They were not Indo-European and they did show some J2b2-L283.

There is a possibility Nuragics-Etruscans-Pre-Dalmatians to be related. Don't know. Revealing the Y-DNA of only one sample is totally missleading like they did with the Dalmatian, Mycenean, Etruscan etc,etc....

----------


## kingjohn

albanian also have slavic dna here: 
this an *albanian* 


*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
25.31

2
West_Med
21.39

3
North_Atlantic
19.62

*4*
*Baltic*
*19.40*

5
West_Asian
10.36

6
Red_Sea
2.53

7
Amerindian
1.03




Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
*1 Greek_Thessaly @ 4.044597*
2 Bulgarian @ 8.282966
3 Romanian @ 11.045584

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
1 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + *Ukrainian_Belgorod* @ 2.495685
2 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + *Southwest_Russian* @ 2.509703

----------


## Aspurg

I3313, female, Jazinka cave, excavated in 2009. Among material found with her were the eyeglass-like bronze fibula and a bronze button. These items were also found at Iapodian site in Kompolje, so based on this (especially fibula) it looks like a likely proto-Iapodian found.

----------


## blevins13

> One more ethnic slur, buddy, and you're banned for life. Am I clear?
> 
> You really want to start this???
> 
> If it weren't for the fact that there are some decent Albanian posters here whom I wouldn't want to offend I could go off on you even more. You really want to compare Italy and Albania?
> 
> CUT IT OUT, and don't ruin it for them too.
> 
> I can't remember how many times I have stopped other Balkanites from t-rolling Albanians and this is the crap I get in return. What's wrong with you?


Albanians need no protection from anyone.
Administer the discussion ethically, avoiding conclusions on our mental health.....and possible breakdown.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Aspurg

> albanian also have slavic dna here: 
> this an *albanian* 
> 
> 
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> East_Med
> ...


 Albanians being in 19-20 Baltic range in K13 is sign of clear Slavic influence. Proto-Slavs had extremely elevated "Baltic" due to additional admixture with some EHG-like non IE elements. BA Dalmatians also had around 12-13 of Baltic which is derived of CWC IE element. But Albanians being at 19 (Kosovars 20 I think) while being more Southern genetically is a clear sign they pack Slavic admixture. When I removed 25 % of proto-Slavic admixture from one N.Albanian sample, the Baltic was reduced to about 9 % (about right proportion IMO), Thracian sample only had 3-4 %, these "Scythian" Getae samples had more than proto-Illyrians (expected as their language was Satem and even Baltoid). Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic. Even Germanic and other autosomal admixtures seem minor in comparison. Though I suppose for some ethnicities there is visible "Eastern Byzantine" admixture.

----------


## Dema

> Albanians being in 19-20 Baltic range in K13 is sign of clear Slavic influence. Proto-Slavs had extremely elevated "Baltic" due to additional admixture with some EHG-like non IE elements. BA Dalmatians also had around 12-13 of Baltic which is derived of CWC IE element. But Albanians being at 19 (Kosovars 20 I think) while being more Southern genetically is a clear sign they pack Slavic admixture. When I removed 25 % of proto-Slavic admixture from one N.Albanian sample, the Baltic was reduced to about 9 % (about right proportion IMO), Thracian sample only had 3-4 %, these "Scythian" Getae samples had more than proto-Illyrians (expected as their language was Satem and even Baltoid). Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic. Even Germanic and other autosomal admixtures seem minor in comparison. Though I suppose for some ethnicities there is visible "Eastern Byzantine" admixture.


Mine is 19.06, average Kosovars should be even lower. 

Regarding "Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic." i absolutely agree here. South Slavs are like 50 % Paleo-Balkan and 50 % East Europe. 

Thats why i like My Origin 2.0 because it separates these two clusters pretty good. And not like Myheritage crap for example that mixes these clusters into two of their imaginary clusters "Balkan" and "Greek".

South Slavs can score anywhere from 20 to 80 percent of Southeast Europe in FTDNA. For these that are over 50 % Southeast Europe i would say that they are heavy Albanian admixed. While Albanians have pretty low East European cluster which at Ukrainians and Poles goes up to 100 %. If Albanian has over or close to 50 % of East Europe he would be considered heavy Slavic admixed. I never seen such example but i dont doubt there are.

I would say Albanians in average have minor Slavic influence. About 10-15 % in Y-DNA chromosome and 5 - 20 % in autosomal genetics. While South-Slavs have at least double the amount so average at 40 % Southeast Europe. Lets put it this way:

Albanian average:

90 % Southeast Europe, 10 % East Europe.

South Slavic average:

50 % East Europe
30-40 % Southeast Europe
10 % various

----------


## Dema

I would say that Serbs are being pulled away from Croats because of Albanian influence. Same for Montenegrin's. Its pretty obvious.
They assimilated Albanians a lot in last 1000 years in various historical events. 

South Serbs and Montenegrins are heavy Albanian admixed, Y-DNA and autosomal wise.

----------


## kingjohn

> Mine is 19.06, average Kosovars should be even lower. 
> 
> Regarding "Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic." i absolutely agree here. South Slavs are like 50 % Paleo-Balkan and 50 % East Europe. 
> 
> Thats why i like My Origin 2.0 because it separates these two clusters pretty good. And not like Myheritage crap for example that mixes these clusters into two of their imaginary clusters "Balkan" and "Greek".
> 
> South Slavs can score anywhere from 20 to 80 percent of Southeast Europe in FTDNA. For these that are over 50 % Southeast Europe i would say that they are heavy Albanian admixed. While Albanians have pretty low East European cluster which at Ukrainians and Poles goes up to 100 %. If Albanian has over or close to 50 % of East Europe he would be considered heavy Slavic admixed. I never seen such example but i dont doubt there are.
> 
> I would say Albanians in average have minor Slavic influence. About 10-15 % in Y-DNA chromosome and 5 - 20 % in autosomal genetics. While South-Slavs have at least double the amount so average at 40 % Southeast Europe. Lets put it this way:
> ...


*


*based on results you saw in my origins 2.0 ?

----------


## Dema

> [/B]based on results you saw in my origins 2.0 ?


Yeah typical results... Or average however you like.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

The “Mediterranean continuum” study seems to show Balkan populations as intermediate between Eastern Europe and the Sicily/South Italy/Greek islands cluster. Albanians and Greeks can be placed at the northern end of a cluster that includes Sicily, South Italy, Aegean Islands, Crete and Jewish people, with Albanians occupying the northernmost area and mainland Greeks just behind them.

0F902A5A-10F2-4DDB-8779-FF05C30998D9.jpg

----------


## ihype02

So is the southern shift of Bulgarians entirely (100%) caused by the Native Balkanic people? I don't think so:




Those numbers are most likely hyperbolic but still it proves my point.

----------


## kingjohn

But bulgarians close to southern romanians 
There are even some bulgarians i have ibd with 
Who are more closer to romanian than bulgarian 
So i assume davidski used southern romanian for eurogenes k13


That is to low number  :Thinking: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

----------


## bigsnake49

> So is the southern shift of Bulgarians entirely (100%) caused by the Native Balkanic people? I don't think so:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those numbers are most likely hyperbolic but still it proves my point.


If they were enough to make a difference, I am sure it will show up in their DNA or the DNA of all the Greek refugees from Eastern Romylia or Eastern Thrace.

----------


## kingjohn

study compared all Slavic nations and combined all lines of evidence, autosomal, maternal and paternal, including more than 6000 people for and *at least 700 Bulgarians from previous studies, of which 13 were used for autosomal analysis (right image). The overall data situates the southeastern group (Bulgarians and Macedonians) in a cluster with Romanians,* and they are at similar proximity to Gagauzes, Montenegrins and Serbs who are not part of another cluster but are described as 'in between' clusters.[8] *Macedonians and Romanians consistently appear to be among the most related to Bulgarians by au, mt, and Y-DNA[8]* a conclusion backed also by a pan-European autosomal study investigating 500,568 SNP (loci) of 1,387 Europeans and including 1 or 2 Bulgarians,[50] other more or less extensive data sets situate Bulgarians and Romanians as their nearest .[51][52][53
Source: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/

P.s
So slav macedonians and romanians are the closest to bulgarians 
And bulgarians and slav macedonians cluster with romanians

----------


## ihype02

> If they were enough to make a difference, I am sure it will show up in their DNA or the DNA of all the Greek refugees from Eastern Romylia or Eastern Thrace.


Those numbers are hyperbolic and over 1000 years old, God knows what happened since then. Even a 5% Armenian-like population will make a difference, it will increase the southern shift towards ancient Thracians by 10%-15%. On the other hand a 5% Gothic/Germanic/Celtic will shift them much less towards northern Slavs.

----------


## bigsnake49

*Armenians* (Bulgarian: арменци, _armentsi_) are the fifth largest minority, after Russians, in *Bulgaria*, numbering 6,552 according to the 2011 census,[2] down from 10,832 in 2001, while Armenian organizations estimate up to 22,000.[3] Armenians have lived in the Balkans (including the territory of modern Bulgaria) since no later than the 5th century, when they moved there as part of the Byzantine cavalry. Since then, the Armenians have had a continuous presence in Bulgarian lands and have often played an important part in the history of Bulgaria from early Medieval times until the present.
The main centres of the Armenian community in the country are the major cities Plovdiv (3,140 Armenians in Plovdiv Province in 2001), Varna (2,240 in Varna Province), Sofia (1,672) and Burgas (904 in Burgas Province).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

----------


## ihype02

> *Armenians* (Bulgarian: арменци, _armentsi_) are the fifth largest minority, after Russians, in *Bulgaria*, numbering 6,552 according to the 2011 census,[2] down from 10,832 in 2001, while Armenian organizations estimate up to 22,000.[3] Armenians have lived in the Balkans (including the territory of modern Bulgaria) since no later than the 5th century, when they moved there as part of the Byzantine cavalry. Since then, the Armenians have had a continuous presence in Bulgarian lands and have often played an important part in the history of Bulgaria from early Medieval times until the present.
> The main centres of the Armenian community in the country are the major cities Plovdiv (3,140 Armenians in Plovdiv Province in 2001), Varna (2,240 in Varna Province), Sofia (1,672) and Burgas (904 in Burgas Province).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

----------


## bigsnake49

> 


If you actually read the article it mentions the different migrations under the byzantine emperors.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Those numbers are hyperbolic and over 1000 years old, God knows what happened since then. Even a 5% Armenian-like population will make a difference, it will increase the southern shift towards ancient Thracians by 10%-15%. On the other hand a 5% Gothic/Germanic/Celtic will shift them much less towards northern Slavs.


How the heck did you come up with those numbers? Is there some quadratic equation?

----------


## Angela

Dema never tires of being wrong.

R 50 is, according to him, based on his yDna alone, from what I can tell, which absolutely couldn’t have arrived during the Bronze Age or with Greek speakers, again according to him, a Phoenician.

I think not.
K13
*Distance to:*
*R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial*

4.11305239
Greek_Chios

4.84214054
Greek_Dodecanese

5.85382781
Calabria

6.25883376
Greek_Symi_Island

6.80722410
Malta

7.26784012
Sicily

7.87770906
East_Sicilian

7.93800353
Campania

8.42941872
Central_Greek

9.38504662
Turk_Cypriot

9.50236286
Apulia

9.56210228
Sephardic_Jewish

10.03718586
Greek_Andros_Island

10.17528869
Basilicata

10.45515662
Molise

10.88114424
Ashkenazi

11.17079675
Abruzzo

11.26311680
Algerian_Jewish

11.82692268
Italian_Jewish

12.34161254
Turk_Crete

12.38046849
Cyprian

12.38046849
Greek_Cypriot

12.41929145
Greek_Cappadocian

12.70745451
Tunisian_Jewish

12.91665978
Greek_Macedonia_Thrace



Dodecad
*Distance to:*
*R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis*

3.64590181
Greek_Crete

4.67848598
Italy_Calabria

6.36826240
Italy_Campania

6.86542533
Italy_Sicily

7.20798862
Ashkenazy_Jews

7.30781773
Ashkenazi

8.16690884
Sephardic_Jews

8.19503557
Italy_Apulia

9.06851662
Italy_Abruzzo

11.59129846
Greek

12.01711280
Morocco_Jews

12.27131615
Crimean_Tatar_Coast

14.40188731
Italy_Marche

14.55815661
Italy_Lazio

14.67172110
Greek_Cappadocia

14.91652775
Turk_West_BlackSea

15.63521986
Nusayri_Turkey

15.66586097
Cypriots

15.66697482
Turk_Central_West

16.57446228
Turk_Northwest

16.65624207
Turk_Southwest

16.72525635
Turk_Anatolia

17.04039025
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain

17.36559818
Turk_Central_East

17.78656797
Italy_Romagna








So, Sample 50 was NOT, repeat NOT, a Phoenician, or, as they would have been referred to at that time a Syrian.
Dema was once again completely and utterly wrong.

Now, if he had bothered to carefully read the Antonio et al paper, he would have seen that some of the samples do plot in Anatolia and a few perhaps in the Levant.

SO WHAT?

Rome was the capital and biggest city of the Empire until it started to decline. Merchants, traders, envoys from all over the known world came to Rome. Some stayed, some intermarried and blended with the locals. Some, even if they stayed for a generation of two, did not, just as, for example, the Ashkenazim lived in various European countries for hundreds of years without becoming one of the locals. It is impossible to know exact percentages. 

What we know from Antonio et al is that the “tail into the Levant” disappeared toward the end of the Empire. As Rome declined, many of the foreigners left, others, being urban dwellers, didn’t survive very well when Rome declined and then fell. Some had blended into the local population, with their signature diluted out of existence.
We’re not talking about simple people living out of their carts or in little mud huts who rarely strayed more than a few miles from home. We’re talking about an empire with people constantly on the move. You can’t deduce that because you find a body from place X in Rome that that person’s descendants were even with him or her and remained to become part of the local population. If that were the case, that “tail into the Levant” wouldn’t have disappeared.

Now let’s turn to sample R1283, which Dema somehow didn’t notice is dated AFTER the time of the Roman Empire.
Eurogenes K13
*Distance to:*
*R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy*

6.29303583
West_Sicilian

7.49569877
Tuscan

7.84967515
Lazio

7.86441352
Marche

8.02215682
Romagna

8.40445120
Umbria

8.50584505
FrenchCorsica

8.87858097
Abruzzo

9.18773095
Greek_Western-Thrace

9.33910060
Molise

9.99226701
Basilicata

10.02431045
Albanian_south_Albania

10.15925194
Apulia

10.26079919
Vlach_Central-Macedonia

10.26599727
Tuscany

10.69777547
East_Sicilian

10.84585174
Albanian_Albania

10.84985253
Greek_Thessaly

11.11996403
Albanian_north_Albania

11.25952486
Albanian_Macedonia

11.45631703
Emilia

11.47601847
GR_Peloponese

11.49283255
Albanian

11.50075650
Campania

11.64639858
Central_Greek



I don’t see a single solitary person from the Near East there, but interestingly enough I see Albanians.

Now Dodecad…
*Distance to:*
*R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria*

2.87198851
Italy_Marche

4.18285716
Italy_Lazio

4.48059148
Italy_Romagna

6.91392002
Italy_Tuscany

7.26884665
Italy_Abruzzo

7.32496526
France_Corsica

8.70709200
Italy_Emilia

9.06752039
Italy_Campania

9.26748456
Italy_Liguria

9.58004321
Italy_Apulia

10.16859012
Italy_Sicily

10.57289459
Greek

10.69305850
Albanian_Kosovo

11.79293009
Albanian_North

12.04364636
Italy_Lombardy

12.38184712
Italy_Calabria

12.64299253
Italy_Piedmont

12.68759463
Italy_Veneto

13.48319324
Turk_Macedonia

14.16912488
Ashkenazi

14.20933623
Italy_FriuliVG

14.28690659
Turk_Greece

14.70096595
Ashkenazy_Jews

15.75807452
Swiss_Italian

16.11530639
Greek_Crete



Well, well, even closer to Albanians.

This should be an object lesson. If some people are so ignorant about population genetics that they don’t freaking know you can’t determine ethnicity solely on yDna, and don’t know the autosomal or ethnic identity of a person about whom they wish to express opinion, then DON’T express an opinion. Find another hobby; you have no business getting into discussions about population genetics.

Also, people should stop making such asinine assertions as that all J2-M410 came from the Levant during the Empire. How clueless can you be?

----------


## ihype02

> How the heck did you come up with those numbers? Is there some quadratic equation?


I am not really sure what the quadratic equation joke is supposed to parodize. Either way, Goths, assuming they were like modern Swedes are genetically closer to Poles than Armenians are to Thracians. So an Armenian-like population will pull Bulgarians closer in southern direction more than an Germanic one will pull them closer to Northern Slavs. 
Plain and simple. But there is also the East-West direction too. 

An other example a half Bulgarians and a half Assyrian will end up ploting with the in ''Aegean zone'' without having any ancestral relations with those regions, but it's just the median of his parents genes. 

All of the sourthern shift of the Bulgarians comes from the Balkanic populations, but not all of the northern shift comes from Slavs is hypocritical and inaccurate.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

The Dodecad K12b model posted earlier in this thread shows that Bulgarians have way less Caucasus admixture than Armenians, and significantly less Caucasus admixture than Syrians. Greeks have more Caucasus admixture than Bulgarians. Pontic Greeks have a lot of it. Based on that model, Bulgarians are not pulled south by Armenians or Syrians. If anything, they would probably be pulled east or southeast.

----------


## kingjohn

Bulgarians are regular country in the balkan 
They cluster genetically with slav Macedonians and Romanians... 
Nothing special or unusual in them ...

----------


## ihype02

> The Dodecad K12b model posted earlier in this thread shows that Bulgarians have way less Caucasus admixture than Armenians, and significantly less Caucasus admixture than Syrians. Greeks have more Caucasus admixture than Bulgarians. Pontic Greeks have a lot of it. Based on that model, Bulgarians are not pulled south by Armenians or Syrians. If anything, they would probably be pulled east or southeast.


Most of their southern pull is caused by natives just like most of their northern pull is caused by Slavs but not all of it.

----------


## Hawk

I checked on G25, and the closest populations to Bronze Age Urnfield from Hungary are again North Italians. This is the variation of Albanians, distance against HRV_IA, HRV_MBA, HUN_BA etc etc.

Distance to:
Progon_scaled

0.04174284
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04206426
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04297053
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04423490
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04999688
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05321158
HUN_BA:I7040

0.05405847
BGR_IA:I5769

0.11975709
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB230

0.04024053
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04364112
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04445961
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04586628
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04957686
HUN_BA:I7040

0.05644252
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.06086694
BGR_IA:I5769

0.11771340
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB220

0.04715839
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04897177
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05063239
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05358558
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05367028
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05481267
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05816814
HUN_BA:I7040

0.11988536
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB213

0.04343210
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04404560
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04519311
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04954577
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05327843
HUN_BA:I7040

0.05383410
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.06431498
BGR_IA:I5769

0.12446384
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB212

0.04190214
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04437515
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04780318
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04831079
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04844422
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05633208
HUN_BA:I7040

0.05853783
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.10780997
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB202

0.04507262
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04717967
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04881970
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04962902
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05659710
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05800757
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06251786
BGR_IA:I5769

0.12773145
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB191

0.05079921
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05396271
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05728129
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05770514
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.06046557
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.06129752
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06658066
BGR_IA:I5769

0.12825241
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL98

0.04941006
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05038667
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05393753
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05555974
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05706378
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05979540
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06097549
HRV_IA:I3313

0.12248226
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL9

0.03891100
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03965939
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04243513
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04537587
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04563110
HUN_BA:I7040

0.04692789
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05861273
BGR_IA:I5769

0.12015864
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL82

0.04208465
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04587652
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04590842
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04899212
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05571229
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06310733
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.06722324
BGR_IA:I5769

0.12806479
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL29

0.04422955
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04565361
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04614954
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04751660
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04927117
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05260969
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05321759
HUN_BA:I7040

0.11179377
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL17

0.04258420
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04772081
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04808358
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05096044
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05100093
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05645784
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06407100
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.11322292
HUN_BA:I7042



Distance to:
Albanian:AL12

0.03556740
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03616644
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04126567
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04428675
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04824068
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04873818
HUN_BA:I7040

0.05106883
BGR_IA:I5769

0.11283966
HUN_BA:I7042

----------


## Hawk

Scythian/Daco-Thracian samples included, comparison with Albanians/Italians/Greeks.

Distance to:
Italian_Northeast:ALP233

0.03700051
HUN_BA:I7043

0.03735146
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03911021
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04219175
HUN_BA:I7040

0.04349603
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04592119
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.04596066
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04708495
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04846588
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04852042
Scythian_MDA:scy197



Distance to:
Italian_Northeast:ALP220

0.02998969
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.04287336
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A197

0.04680771
Scythian_UKR:scy010

0.05083127
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05236558
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05389843
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A194

0.05478101
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05915212
HUN_BA:I7040

0.06574583
HRV_IA:I3313

0.06633114
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A191



Distance to:
Italian_Marche:MarABU050D

0.03370095
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03495651
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.03602548
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03868351
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04097700
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04160381
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04170126
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04280560
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04392107
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04854649
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D

0.03720053
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.03792640
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.03834652
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03995435
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04102256
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04280541
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04368147
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04400958
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04967184
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05194421
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Italian_Marche:MarABP050D

0.03576535
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03898669
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04199255
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04278064
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04281614
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04528011
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04865879
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04909046
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04948779
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05056582
HUN_BA:I7043



Distance to:
Italian_Lombardy:BGD31

0.03075272
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03473685
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.03999570
HUN_BA:I7040

0.04123596
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04163599
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04353767
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04499454
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04667088
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04751010
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04773667
Scythian_MDA:scy192



Distance to:
Italian_Lombardy:BGD301

0.02936488
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03859379
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.03871935
HUN_BA:I7040

0.03920545
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03931694
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.03949899
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04050400
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04293146
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04411640
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04539897
Scythian_MDA:scy305



Distance to:
Italian_Lombardy:ALP288

0.02681640
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.02993302
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03204313
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03320081
HUN_BA:I7043

0.03393379
HUN_BA:I7040

0.03489283
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.03936211
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04214363
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04232676
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04257178
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198



Distance to:
Italian_Liguria:ALP099

0.03503135
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03630896
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.03650915
HUN_BA:I7043

0.03703327
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04012500
HUN_BA:I7040

0.04122579
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04202412
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04238543
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04307786
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04658284
Scythian_MDA:scy192



Distance to:
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE162

0.03113344
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03333998
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03478528
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.03520684
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.03664499
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03784152
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03805954
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04085618
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04160030
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04808501
BGR_IA:I5769



Distance to:
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE144

0.03554727
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03805104
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03875530
HRV_IA:I3313

0.03900030
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.03924400
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.03960619
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04082925
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04607515
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04799965
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05391876
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Greek_Thessaly:GreeceNE126

0.03346811
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03464434
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03810834
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.03900930
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.03953000
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04064726
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04498005
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04518012
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04768623
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04985191
HRV_MBA:I4332



Distance to:
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE252

0.03511796
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03871536
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04227321
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04915427
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.05004342
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05009104
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05619395
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.05701826
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05761956
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05834992
HUN_BA:I7043



Distance to:
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE231

0.03869072
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04431649
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04681251
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04800494
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.05025690
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05404113
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.05446469
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05534274
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

0.05612261
GRC_Mycenaean:I9041

0.05675124
HRV_MBA:I4332



Distance to:
Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209

0.03920611
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04045514
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04059236
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04092612
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04173955
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04424900
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.05006332
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05255090
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215

0.05405471
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05500922
HUN_BA:I7043



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB230

0.03895529
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04024053
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04108558
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04233119
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04364112
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04445961
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04586628
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04606065
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04619692
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04957686
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB220

0.04060907
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04372552
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04504604
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04715839
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04796299
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04897177
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05063239
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05358558
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05367028
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05481267
HRV_MBA:I4332



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB213

0.03798192
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04077521
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04343210
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04404560
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04511488
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04519311
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04603481
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04669203
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.04954577
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05327843
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB212

0.03536115
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.03593386
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.03931799
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04179578
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04190214
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04230333
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04437515
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04780318
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04831079
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04844422
HUN_BA:I7043



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB202

0.03771876
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03971744
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04310465
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04507262
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04717967
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04741590
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04881970
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04962902
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04976376
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.05400996
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198



Distance to:
Albanian:ALB191

0.04547208
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04610658
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04658423
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.04844274
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.05079921
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05396271
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05557241
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.05728129
HRV_IA:I3313

0.05770514
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05859958
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198



Distance to:
Albanian:AL98

0.03705477
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04470802
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04941006
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04972554
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.05038667
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.05146569
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.05272415
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195

0.05393753
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.05555974
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05706378
BGR_IA:I5769



Distance to:
Albanian:AL9

0.03391585
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03891100
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03965939
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04056472
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04058145
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04211000
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04243513
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04537587
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.04563110
HUN_BA:I7040

0.04583752
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195



Distance to:
Albanian:AL82

0.03530783
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04073868
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04208465
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04403755
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04534482
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04587652
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04590842
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04743349
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04899212
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.05239848
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A195



Distance to:
Albanian:AL29

0.03390347
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03895840
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.03953480
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04000910
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04002407
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04422955
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04565361
BGR_IA:I5769

0.04614954
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04751660
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04927117
HUN_BA:I7043



Distance to:
Albanian:AL17

0.04054794
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04129247
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04253988
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04258420
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04656281
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04676235
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04772081
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04808358
BGR_IA:I5769

0.05096044
HUN_BA:I7043

0.05100093
HRV_MBA:I4331



Distance to:
Albanian:AL12

0.03556740
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.03616644
HRV_MBA:I4332

0.03791560
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04126567
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04347306
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04428675
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04581340
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04670566
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04824068
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04873818
HUN_BA:I7040



Distance to:
Progon_scaled

0.03943402
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.04031992
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04174284
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04206426
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04297053
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04392579
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04423490
HRV_IA:I3313

0.04456539
Scythian_MDA:scy300

0.04535930
Scythian_HUN :Laughing: A198

0.04999688
HRV_MBA:I4332

----------


## Hawk

I believe that Albanians are a mix of Illyrians, Thracians and Greek/Epirotes with a hint of Slavic (shifting them more North) with some variations. This is my guess. Let's wait and see tested bones.

----------


## Angela

> Most of their southern pull is caused by natives just like most of their northern pull is caused by Slavs but not all of it.


Those "natives", by the time of the Slavic invasions, had a lot of Caucasus.

----------


## kingjohn

> Those "natives", by the time of the Slavic invasions, had a lot of Caucasus.


maybe 
*iran neolithic* wave  :Thinking: 

a *full* *Bulgarian* results :

*east europe : 37% ( i wasn't far*  :Good Job: )
southeast europe 26%
iberian 13%
*asia minor : 20%* 
trace: <2% aschenazi 
<2% west middle east

----------


## Regio X

> maybe 
> *iran neolithic* wave 
> a *full* *Bulgarian* results :
> *east europe : 37% ( i wasn't far* )
> southeast europe 26%
> iberian 13%
> *asia minor : 20%* 
> trace: <2% aschenazi 
> <2% west middle east


Imo one of the problems of myOrigins is that the results may vary too much in people from the same ethnicity. For example, compare mine and my uncle's. 
(In my case it "inflates" this East Euro component.)

*Mine* (%):
Southeast Euro: 44;
British Isles: 19;
Iberia: 18;
East Euro: 10;
Scandinavia: 6;
Ashkenazi: <2.

*Uncle's*:
West and Central Euro: 58;
Southeast Euro: 42.

Again, same ethnicity.

While 23andMe gives me some "Central Euro" % (French&German) - most part of it is probably shared ancestry -, it gives me 0.7% of East Euro only, 0% of Scandinavia and British, and 3.7% of "Iberia"... It seems more accurate.

Let's see if myOrigins becomes really better in the next version, which will be released soon.

----------


## kingjohn

> Imo one of the problems of myOrigins is that the results may vary too much in people from the same ethnicity. For example, compare mine and my uncle's. 
> (In my case it "inflates" this East Euro component.)
> *Mine* (%):
> Southeast Euro: 44;
> British Isles: 19;
> Iberia: 18;
> East Euro: 10;
> Scandinavia: 6;
> Ashkenazi: <2.
> ...


i surely hope so  :Smile: 
but i can give you *2 more full bulgarians* who score above 35% east europe ......
bulgarians are called south slavs for a reason... 
this thread is on albanians 
and i truly don't understand why they push here the south theory here on bulgarians  :Thinking: 
they are regular balkan people who cluster with slav -macedonians and romanians 
nothing more nothing less......

----------


## Duarte

> Imo one of the problems of myOrigins is that the results may vary too much in people from the same ethnicity. For example, compare mine and my uncle's. 
> (In my case it "inflates" this East Euro component.)
> *Mine* (%):
> Southeast Euro: 44;
> British Isles: 19;
> Iberia: 18;
> East Euro: 10;
> Scandinavia: 6;
> Ashkenazi: <2.
> ...


Hello Regio. What FTDNA’s MyOrigins tells you about your mother or your father. My parents were cousins, my grandparents were also and like this successively. This result is of a paternal or maternal uncle? Is your father ethnically similar to you? My mother was a little bit Spanish.

----------


## Dema

> Dema never tires of being wrong.
> 
> R 50 is, according to him, based on his yDna alone, from what I can tell, which absolutely couldn’t have arrived during the Bronze Age or with Greek speakers, again according to him, a Phoenician.
> 
> I think not.
> K13
> *Distance to:*
> *R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial*
> 
> ...


Dear Angela, i never said sample R50 is Phoenician :) In post where i first mentioned this samples i said:



> For example let me show you two Phoenician Canaanite samples which assimilated into Romans:


Therefore i never said they are Phoenicians but rather that they were most likely Canaanites/Phoenicians and for sure of previous Semitic origin *assimilated into Romans*.
I dont consider samples R50 neither R1283 Phoenicians neither Semites and i never said that. I consider them Romans and i said that. However obviously assimilated into Romans with previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite/Phoenician origin.
I dont deny that these two samples could arrive in Italy with Hellenic identity and then assimilate into Romans.
But no mater did they arrive with Greek colonies or directly assimilated into Romans, they are of undoubtful previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite/Phoenician origin.
They could have easily mix with Greeks and Romans and in few generations produce these autosomal results, its clear that they were Romans with Levantine and Greek admix and with Phoenician Y-DNA.

Now i hope you do understand that sample R50 regarding modern living population has its only so far identified Y-DNA relatives among Lebanese and Egyptians with TMRCA of 3100 ybp - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/ So far as we know J2-M205>Y134194 does not exist in Greece among modern population. But only in Lebanon and Egypt. And now found among Ancient Romans, therefore he is most likely of direct Phoenician paternal origin. But again let me repat, J2-M205, is more diverse and is of more higher percentage in Greece then in Italy and its clear that Greeks involved into this Mediterranean cluster much earlier then Italics, at around 1000 BCE most likely somewhere around Cyprus. 

There is almost no chance that J2-M205 samples arrived during Bronze Age. There is no J2-M205 European Bronze Age samples. Even me as J2-M205 to claim something like that would be a wishful thinking so i rather hold for facts and go step by step :) J2-M205 conquered Levant In EBA and most likely earliest with Phoenicians 800 BCE started to spread towards Mediterranean Sea. Let me repeat J2-M205 has TMRCA 5900 ybp, and oldest aDNA in Levant 4500 ybp and Phoenician Sidon 3700 ybp. R50 matches Y-aDNA in EBA Levant with distance 5900 YBP and modern Egyptians and Lebanese at distance 3100 ybp. So unlike these easy changeable autosomal traits, very solid Y-DNA proves with great evidences in this case.






> Now let’s turn to sample R1283, which Dema somehow didn’t notice is dated AFTER the time of the Roman Empire.
> Eurogenes K13
> *Distance to:*
> *R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy*
> 
> 6.29303583
> West_Sicilian
> 
> 7.49569877
> ...


I didnt say all J2-M410 arrive from Levant during the Empire, but rather J2-M205. By all evidences it could be earliest of some kind of Phoenician or hellenised Phoenician origin at 800 BCE, but i doubt R50 is so old, he is most likely of after Punic Wars.

As i said in my earlier posts J2-M205 is very very Mediterranean haplogroup with uncanny Canaanite and Levantine signature. 
There was big shift of genetics in Bronze Age Levant (confirmed by aDNA). And as it seems many J haplotypes of which for now we have confirmed only J1 and J2-M205 have replaced earlier Neolithic and Chalcolithic mostly T1 and E1b lines in Early Bronze Age from direction of Zagros mountains, most likely by Zagros natives as there we find earlier similar haplotypes since Neolithic (all confirmed by aDNA). 

By known history Greeks mixed with Phoenicians in Cyprus already in 1000 BCE, most likely for the first time starting to roll this Mediterranean admix. Italians joined a bit later, first by Greek colonies influence, then by Phoenician and Carthaginian influence and in the end by Roman Empire and Mediterranean connection.


I am very busy and indeed i found new hobby, but i still like to read about these things. I see that you wrote a lot of things in another post which i will try to take time and reply tomorrow : ) Best regards until then !

----------


## Dema

> I believe that Albanians are a mix of Illyrians, Thracians and Greek/Epirotes with a hint of Slavic (shifting them more North) with some variations. This is my guess. Let's wait and see tested bones.


I would say Albanians are mostly mix of Bronze Age Indo-Europeans, Anatolian Neolithic, Iron Age Mediterranean, and minor Middle Ages Slavic, Norman, Saxon, etc.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

----------


## Regio X

> Hello Regio. What FTDNA’s MyOrigins tells you about your mother or your father. My parents were cousins, my grandparents were also and like this successively. This result is of a paternal or maternal uncle? Is your father ethnically similar to you? My mother was a little bit Spanish.


Hi fellow Duarte. It's my maternal uncle. My main goal was figuring out my maternal grandfather's lineage, so I tested him.
My parents tested only in 23andMe, not in FTDNA (I've tested in both though). I did upload their 23andMe results to FTDNA, however, myOrigins is blocked for them. Unblocking is charged, and I confess I have no interest in paying just to know their myOrigins' results. :) On the other hand, FamilyFinder is free.
I've also uploaded their results to MyHeritage time ago, and they're very different. IIRC my mom got something abt. 50% Balkan in there. Lol Nonsense.

Yes, my parents belong to the same "cluster" (N. Italian). Mother is full Venetian in ancestry. Father, 75% Venetian and 25% Lombard.

----------


## Angela

> Dear Angela, i never said sample R50 is Phoenician :) In post where i first mentioned this samples i said:
> 
> 
> Therefore i never said they are Phoenicians but rather that they were most likely Canaanites/Phoenicians and for sure of previous Semitic origin *assimilated into Romans*.
> I dont consider samples R50 neither R1283 Phoenicians neither Semites and i never said that. I consider them Romans and i said that. However obviously assimilated into Romans with previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite/Phoenician origin.
> I dont deny that these two samples could arrive in Italy with Hellenic identity and then assimilate into Romans.
> But no mater did they arrive with Greek colonies or directly assimilated into Romans, they are of undoubtful previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite/Phoenician origin.
> They could have easily mix with Greeks and Romans and in few generations produce these autosomal results, its clear that they were Romans with Levantine and Greek admix and with Phoenician Y-DNA.
> 
> ...


Please don't bother. I don't waste time interacting with such obviously ignorant and misinformed people spinning fantasies instead of rationally discussing population genetics. I do strongly urge you to follow your new hobby. Maybe it won't be so intellectually taxing.

----------


## Jovialis

> I would say Albanians are mostly mix of Bronze Age Indo-Europeans, Anatolian Neolithic, Iron Age Mediterranean, and minor Middle Ages Slavic, Norman, Saxon, etc.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app




SEEurope 2 are Albanians. The light-blue component is Anatolian Bronze-Age. Albanians can be modeled as over 1/3rd Anatolian Bronze-Age. It is a larger component for Albanians than Steppe, or Anatolian_N. Clearly, with the arrival of Slavs in the Balkans, the amount of Steppe would have increased. Thus the Anatolian_BA component was possibly larger in the ancestors of Albanians; perhaps comparable to Southern Italian populations.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full

----------


## Dema

> SEEurope 2 are Albanians. The light-blue component is Anatolian Bronze-Age. Albanians can be modeled as over 1/3rd Anatolian Bronze-Age. It is a larger component for Albanians than Steppe, or Anatolian_N. Clearly, with the arrival of Slavs in the Balkans, the amount of Steppe would have increased. Thus the Anatolian_BA component was possibly larger in the ancestors of Albanians; perhaps comparable to Southern Italian populations.
> 
> https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full



This is just a way to model modern humans among some of their prepicked ancient clusters. Thats why they say "it can be modeled this way". 
You do understand that they used few early probably Chalcolithic hunter-gatherer groups and few Bronze Age groups and tried to fit entire human genome into these clusters?

Do you really think if you would cross Anatolian Bronze Age, Steppe Bronze Age, and Anatolian Neolithic and you would get Albanians? 
Do you understand that time of this process of 2000 years ago and 3000 years ago which you never took into consideration is also somewhat important?

And in this study you cited it was obviously said :



*Italian clusters separated into three main groups: Sardinia, Northern (North/Central-North Italy), and Southern Italy (South/Central-South Italy and Sicily); the first two were close to populations originally from Western Europe, while the last was closer to Middle Eastern groups* (Fig. 1, A and B; figs. S1D and S2, A to C; and data file S1). These observations were confirmed using a subset of the dataset genotyped for a larger number of SNPs [high-density dataset (HDD) including 591,217 SNPs; see Materials and Methods and the Supplementary Materials; fig. S1D and data file S1]. To highlight the geographic distribution of the identified clusters along the Italian peninsula, we reconstructed the cluster composition of the various administrative regions of Italy by using the best sampling origin information available for each individual in our dataset (Fig. 1C and data file S1). Recent migrants and admixed individuals, as identified on the basis of their copying vectors (fig. S3, data file S2), were removed in subsequent CP/fS analyses (see Materials and Methods and the Supplementary Materials).

Its obvious what is pulling central and south Italians, Albanians, and also Greeks away from north Italians, therefore also away from early Indo-European 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample.


Again i repeat he was not Illyrian lol. He would probably become Illyrian 1000 years later at year 600 BCE. I dont know will Albanians plot close to actual Illyrians when we test them, and i dont care but its obvious Italians are not closer to Illyrians because we yet dont have clear Illyrian samples.


Are you denying ancient near eastern influence in modern Greeks, South Italians, and Albanians?

Also according to you what is pulling Greeks, central and south Italians and somewhat Albanians toward Middle Eastern cluster ?

I gave you 100 % Semitic samples from Levant Bronze Age assimilated into Imperial Romans and later Middle Age Italians, what else evidence you want lol. 



Conclusions Our results demonstrate that the genetic variability of present-day Southern Italian populations is characterized by a shared genetic continuity, extending to large portions of central and eastern Mediterranean shores. This area, which is cored in Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands, exceeds cross-linguistic differences, encompassing populations belonging to different Indo-European subfamilies (Greek, Romance, Albanian). Noticeably, Southern Italy appear more similar to the Greek-speaking islands of the Mediterranean Sea, reaching as far east as Cyprus, than to samples from continental Greece, suggesting a possible ancestral link which might have survived in a less admixed form in the islands. Their genetic ancestry traces its heritage to complex and extensive patterns of pre- and proto-historical admixture. Besides a predominant Neolithic-like component, our analyses reveal significant impacts of Post-Neolithic Caucasus- and Levantine-related ancestries, which might be further addressed by future studies with a higher sample coverage for a precise contextualization in time and space and by integrating multiple lines of evidence from different disciplines (e.g. linguistics, archaeology, paleogenomics). More recent historical expansions from Continental Europe added further admixture layers, accounting for the genetic and cultural complexity that currently differentiates present-day Southern Balkan and Southern Italian populations.


Modern Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations are located at the centre of the PCA plot (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1), forming an almost uninterrupted bridge between the two parallel clines of distribution where most of the other modern populations are found, one stretching along the East-West axis of Europe and the other from the Near East to the Caucasus, respectively (see also Supplementary Information). In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘*Mediterranean genetic continuum*’. On the other hand, the continental part of Greece, including Peloponnesus, appears as slightly differentiated, by clustering with the other Southern Balkan populations of Albania and Kosovo. Finally, North-Central Balkan groups (Southern Slavic-speakers and Romanians) show affinity to Eastern Europeans (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1, Supplementary Information).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5434004/







So what is pulling central and south Italians, Greeks, and Albanians towards this Bronze Age Levant or modern Levant cluster according to you?

----------


## Dema

Wrong post.

----------


## Dema

Cyprus was probably first melting point of Mediterranean genetic continuum among natives, Greeks and Phoenicians.

Btw Greek colonies in Illyrian territories are totally ignored here on Phoenician-Greek colonisation map. We know Greeks colonised Illyrians early on like Dyrrachium, Pharos, etc.. Its probably what is pulling Albanians also while Slavic influence should pull them north, therefore pre-slavic Albanians were likely somewhere in middle of Tuscan and Abruzzo, or even central Greek. While pre-Slavic central Greeks were probably something like S. Italian on PCA. 

68.jpgbKRAv4c.jpg

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

----------


## Jovialis

Dema, I assume you are fighting the most recent academic studies on these populations, because you are not personally satisfied withwhat the results are showing. I am not giving you my personal speculation on these matters, but merely pointing out what the leading scholars in human population genetics are proposing. You are merely trying to reconcile disjointed maps, with dubious claims, which is rather obvious, that you are vying for a preferred interpretation. The fact of the matter is, the source populations that compose Albanians, are ultimately summed up in the modeling. You are predominately Anatolian Bronze Age derived. I know that isn’t cool on Eurogenes, but you must accept reality. Your ancestors, prior to Slavic invasions, were possibly even closer to these people. That is, if you look at it from the most logical perspective. Moreover, your obsession with Phoenician admixture with Greeks and Romans, is obviously coming from a place of insecurity. It is well known that Albanians dislike Greeks. However, you are in the minority, because most people do not subscribe to what ethno-nationalistic Abanians believe in. TBH, most people in the USA, or even Europe, probably wouldn't even be able to locate it on a map. I would recommend reading the studies, since you have admitted that you are ignorant of what they are. I’m not sure how things work in Albania, but in most other areas of the world, people come prepared with citable academic sources in these kinds of discussions.

----------


## Jovialis

> Also according to you what is pulling Greeks, central and south Italians and somewhat Albanians toward Middle Eastern cluster ?
> 
> I gave you 100 % Semitic samples from Levant Bronze Age assimilated into Imperial Romans and later Middle Age Italians, what else evidence you want lol.


I am going to assume you haven't read my last several posts on this matter, so I will say it again.

What is pulling these populations towards their position, is Anatolian Bronze Age admixture, which has been in the central Mediterranean since the early Bronze Age. That is what professionals in this field subscribe to. If I have to say it 100,000 times, before every benighted fool in this hobby recognizes it, than so be it. I am not going to allow it to go unchecked, as long as I am involved in this hobby.

The study you cited, is from 2017, and it is a superficial treatment at best. I already have pointed to sources that demonstrate that there is overlap with ABA in Levantine populations in more recent studies. Do you comprehend that? ABA is 60% Anatolian_N, and 40% CHG.

----------


## Hawk

I already posted this:

Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156

36.8
TUR_Barcin_N



35.0
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



25.4
TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N



2.2
WHG



0.6
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N


TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N is similar to what you call ABA, Barcin with CHG affinities.

I wouldn't say is the major component but it is there, present which was absent among those Dalmatian samples, Myceneans had less percentage. And, this ethno-nationalistic Albanian has become a scapegoat here lately.

----------


## Jovialis

> I already posted this:
> 
> Target: Albanian
> Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156
> 
> 36.8
> TUR_Barcin_N
> 
> 
> ...


There's probably some overlap with Barcin_N and there is a missing CHG component to that sample, which would bring it roughly to the 1/3rd of autosomal percentage. 



Try to model it using Anatolia BA, or ChL.

Nobody is being scapegoated, I don't know what you mean by that.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Dema, I assume you are fighting the most recent academic studies on these populations, because you are not personally satisfied withwhat the results are showing. I am not giving you my personal speculation on these matters, but merely pointing out what the leading scholars in human population genetics are proposing. You are merely trying to reconcile disjointed maps, with dubious claims, which is rather obvious, that you are vying for a preferred interpretation. The fact of the matter is, the source populations that compose Albanians, are ultimately summed up in the modeling. You are predominately Anatolian Bronze Age derived. I know that isn’t cool on Eurogenes, but you must accept reality. Your ancestors, prior to Slavic invasions, were possibly even closer to these people. That is, if you look at it from the most logical perspective. Moreover, your obsession with Phoenician admixture with Greeks and Romans, is obviously coming from a place of insecurity. It is well known that Albanians dislike Greeks. However, you are in the minority, because most people do not subscribe to what ethno-nationalistic Abanians believe in. TBH, most people in the USA, or even Europe, probably wouldn't even be able to locate it on a map. I would recommend reading the studies, since you have admitted that you are ignorant of what they are. I’m not sure how things work in Albania, but in most other areas of the world, people come prepared with citable academic sources in these kinds of discussions.


Albanian ethno-nationalism has nothing to do with this. Dema belongs to J2b-m205, a group that has under 1% frequency in Albanian. (This is not l283). 

He believes it is related to phoenicians so he is trying to attribute a big phoenician effect on greeks italians and albanians to present his particular haplogroup as important.

----------


## Angela

> I am going to assume you haven't read my last several posts on this matter, so I will say it again.
> 
> What is pulling these populations towards their position, is Anatolian Bronze Age admixture, which has been in the central Mediterranean since the early Bronze Age. That is what professionals in this field subscribe to. If I have to say it 100,000 times, before every benighted fool in this hobby recognizes it, than so be it. I am not going to allow it to go unchecked, as long as I am involved in this hobby.
> 
> The study you cited, is from 2017, and it is a superficial treatment at best. I already have pointed to sources that demonstrate that there is overlap with ABA in Levantine populations in more recent studies. Do you comprehend that? ABA is 60% Anatolian_N, and 40% CHG.


I've come to the conclusion that people will believe what they choose to believe, no matter what the academic papers say. They'll pull out "models" done by God knows whom, using God knows what populations in the various inputs, with God knows what accuracy percentages, until they get the answer they want. 

It's useless to expect any kind of disinterested logic. I mean, the fact that someone can seriously say that because a Greek like/Southern Italian like sample from the Imperial period carries a J2a lineage that happened to appear in a sample in the Levant proves that there was large scale migration from Phoenicia to Rome, and that this sample is therefore an admixed "Semite" should tell you everything you need to know about the level of reasoning and logic involved. I mean it never occurs to these people that these J2a lineages are also all over Anatolia. 

I give you credit for keeping up the dialogue. I have no patience for this level of ignorance.

----------


## Jovialis

@Angela, You're right. But my patience as of today has been spent. There's only so many times I can point to the papers, for guidence.

@Johane, Yes it is now clear to me, that is what he is doing here.

----------


## Dema

> Dema, I assume you are fighting the most recent academic studies on these populations, because you are not personally satisfied withwhat the results are showing. I am not giving you my personal speculation on these matters, but merely pointing out what the leading scholars in human population genetics are proposing. You are merely trying to reconcile disjointed maps, with dubious claims, which is rather obvious, that you are vying for a preferred interpretation.


I am not fighting anything, i gave my opinion which i believe is most logical due to all the given facts (Ydna, mtDNA, autosomal, history, archaeology, etc..), but somehow you are trying to attribute and you are actually fighting that Greeks, central and south Italians, and Albanians are being pulled clearly and are matching Middle East because of Anatolian Bronze Age, and like that is the only reason while you are completely ignoring East Mediterranean (Greeko - Phoenician) influence even tho there are clear Y-DNA, autosomal, and historical evidences. 

I am not using outdated research lol, this is quote from research you are using and posting entire time:

*Italian clusters separated into three main groups: Sardinia, Northern (North/Central-North Italy), and Southern Italy (South/Central-South Italy and Sicily); the first two were close to populations originally from Western Europe, while the last was closer to Middle Eastern groups* (Fig. 1, A and B; figs. S1D and S2, A to C; and data file S1). These observations were confirmed using a subset of the dataset genotyped for a larger number of SNPs [high-density dataset (HDD) including 591,217 SNPs; see Materials and Methods and the Supplementary Materials; fig. S1D and data file S1]. To highlight the geographic distribution of the identified clusters along the Italian peninsula, we reconstructed the cluster composition of the various administrative regions of Italy by using the best sampling origin information available for each individual in our dataset (Fig. 1C and data file S1). Recent migrants and admixed individuals, as identified on the basis of their copying vectors (fig. S3, data file S2), were removed in subsequent CP/fS analyses (see Materials and Methods and the Supplementary Materials).


This is research, its link you gave : https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full

Clearly research says under conclusion that central and north italian groups are closer Middle Eastern groups. Are you denying Semitic Y-DNA found in Imperial and Middle Age Romans ? Which could not spread in Bronze Age because all the proofs say it spread later with Phoenicians or with Canaanites.

To think that only Slavic admixture pushes Albanians away from this sample and to celebrate like Angela celebrated few pages back fact that N Italians are closer to Illyrians is purely wishful thinking. And seems you cant comprehend with facts that we have various genetic mixtures here as Saxons, Nomans, Hungarians, etc, you just cant model all admixture and all clusters into for example 60 % Caucasus hunter-gatherer and 40 % Anatolia Neolithic, i hope you do understand this. You wont find what is pushing Albanians from I4331 Dalmatia by focusing on two hunter-gatherer groups that lived 20 000 years ago and two prepicked Bronze Age groups like ABA. 

Do you understand that ABA is not so far from Levant Bronze Age, and that Levant Bronze age is 50 % CHG or ZGH (Zagros hunter-gatherer)

How you plan to isolate Middle Eastern cluster by looking at CHG when Bronze Age Middle East is also 50 % Caucasus and Zagros hunter gatherer. 

Please dont mention hunter gatherers and population that lived 10 000 years ago when its clear that this is something more recent. 





> The fact of the matter is, the source populations that compose Albanians, are ultimately summed up in the modeling. You are predominately Anatolian Bronze Age derived. I know that isn’t cool on Eurogenes, but you must accept reality. Your ancestors, prior to Slavic invasions, were possibly even closer to these people. That is, if you look at it from the most logical perspective. Moreover, your obsession with Phoenician admixture with Greeks and Romans, is obviously coming from a place of insecurity.


Anatolian Bronze Age is derived from Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherers and natives therefore same as Bronze Age Levant and somewhat modern Fertile Crescent, therefore what you think is ABA its actually East Mediterranean which is very similar to ABA anyways if you look closer. 

And regarding insecurities why would i have insecurities when clearly history says Phoenicians mixed with Greeks and Romans and Ydna just as autosomal DNA confirms it. It seems you have complexes because of Steppe haplogroup and its hard for you to accept that you are not 100 % steppe neither 100% ABA but mix of much more genetics and historical event as were iron age Phoenician and Greek colonies all over Mediterranean Sea. 




> It is well known that Albanians dislike Greeks. However, you are in the minority, because most people do not subscribe to what ethno-nationalistic Abanians believe in. TBH, most people in the USA, or even Europe, probably wouldn't even be able to locate it on a map. I would recommend reading the studies, since you have admitted that you are ignorant of what they are. I’m not sure how things work in Albania, but in most other areas of the world, people come prepared with citable academic sources in these kinds of discussions.



Albanians dont dislike anyone, Albanians are most peaceful and friendly people in the world. Albanians can be crude because of history they endured but Albanians are nothing like you are representing them. Albanians neither me personally dont hate Greeks and trying to represent pure historical facts like Greek intermixing with Phoenicians as my hatered towards Greeks is really ridiculous. I simply believe this is true due to all given facts, regarding population genetics, Y-DNA and mtDNA wise, but also other expertise fields like history, archaeology, linguistics, etc.

----------


## Dema

> I already posted this:
> 
> Target: Albanian
> Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156
> 
> 36.8
> TUR_Barcin_N
> 
> 
> ...



You have no clue and this calculators are crap, copy pasting rows of crap gedmatch results wont take you anywhere closer to what you are hoping to discover.

Really opening thread stupid like this where you think that Slavic influence is only thing pushing Albanians from I4331 is really not serious to say at least.


Furthermore you have no clue about what Illyrian genetics was because you dont even know Illyrians didnt exist in 1600 BCE lol.

----------


## Hawk

> You have no clue and this calculators are crap, copy pasting rows of crap gedmatch results wont take you anywhere closer to what you are hoping to discover.
> 
> Really opening thread stupid like this where you think that Slavic influence is only thing pushing Albanians from I4331 is really not serious to say at least.
> 
> 
> Furthermore you have no clue about what Illyrian genetics was because you dont even know Illyrians didnt exist in 1600 BCE lol.


I didn't open the thread, it was initially a post which was split into a thread (i suppose Angela did it).

And dude, your English grammar is terrible, your reasoning is even worse. Go on, and embarrass yourself, project your insecurities into us.

----------


## Dema

> Albanian ethno-nationalism has nothing to do with this. Dema belongs to J2b-m205, a group that has under 1% frequency in Albanian. (This is not l283). 
> He believes it is related to phoenicians so he is trying to attribute a big phoenician effect on greeks italians and albanians to present his particular haplogroup as important.



J2-M205 as being primarily Bronze Age Fertile Crescent haplogroup for sure had huge effect on Mediterranean Sea as all modern religions come from this place and even alphabet and numbers you are using originate there. Ignoring this would not be wise to say at least.

My haplogroup being 1 % among Albanians, 3 % among Serbs, or 5 % among Cypriot Greeks have nothing to do with anything. 

exactly because of low percentage, not so many branches, and somewhat low TMRCA. This haplogroup is very easy to track and for sure you could use it to track Bronze Age Levant population in naval way with ships colonizing and trading towards Mediterranean Sea. 

I never seen you talk about haplogroups or do some serious Y-DNA analysis or trying to explain origin of E-v13 or your sublcade. I tryed to explain E-v13 origin countless times and talked about its branches and migrations and ancient DNA just as i did try to explore my own haplogroup also. 

Yes i love to explore Y-DNA haplogroups also but everything what i say is reality. I have no need to imagine things or represent my haplogroup as important when it was clearly Bronze Age Fertile Crescent haplogroup its clear that it probably influenced entire world.

Percentages mean nothing, its just effect of procreation and luck in history, even rats can procreate so high percentage of some haplogroup is last thing i would take for a success

----------


## Dema

@ Angela i explained you like 5x already J haplogroups and that they split into 4 major branches J1, J2-L283, J2-M205, J2-M410.

Again after 5 times you dont know difference between Caucasus Neolithic and Anatolian Bronze Age J2-M410, and Zagros Neolithic and Levant Bronze Age J2-M205.


Its hard to me to explain you further if you dont understand these basics.

----------


## Hawk

J2-M205 was an insignificant Y-DNA among Levantines/Canaanites as well, probably they were present in pockets here and there, in minority in comparison with Y-DNA J1 sub-clades and E-M35 which are the true Proto - Semitic lineages, especially the latter as the language bearer of Pre Proto-Semitic.

----------


## Hawk

> So she just used a ignorant who think Albanians are admixed only with Slavs and that is the only thing what is pushing them away from "Illyrian" sample which is not Illyrian at all in the first place.
> So she can celebrate like some big success that Italians are closer to Illyrians. Which i would have nothing against if that was true but simply this is ridiculous which i argumented with facts. You thinking you understand anything because of rows of gedmatch results is even more redicilous to me. Which Jovialis also pointed out to you, and for once i agree with him.


Don Quixote, 

You and Aspurg need to revisit your mental models about celebrations, this is about actual facts. The MBA Croatian had an Y-DNA common only among Albanians in particular. Anyway, Albanians look like an eastern version of Tuscans, more shifted toward Greeks and more Slavic influenced than Tuscans. That's what the facts point us.

----------


## Jovialis

> Do you understand that ABA is not so far from Levant Bronze Age, and that Levant Bronze age is 50 % CHG or ZGH (Zagros hunter-gatherer)


From new study from less than 1 month ago:




> Here, we report genome-wide data analyses from 110 ancient Near Eastern individuals spanning the Late Neolithic to Late Bronze Age, a period characterized by intense interregional interactions for the Near East. We find that 6th millennium BCE populations of North/Central Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus shared mixed ancestry on a genetic cline that formed during the Neolithic between Western Anatolia and regions in today’s Southern Caucasus/Zagros. *During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced, while in the rest of Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, we document genetic continuity with only transient gene flow.* Additionally, we reveal a genetically distinct individual within the Late Bronze Age Northern Levant. Overall, our study uncovers multiple scales of population dynamics through time, from extensive admixture during the Neolithic period to long-distance mobility within the globalized societies of the Late Bronze Age.
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092


Levant_BA is different from Anatolian_BA, because about half of Levant_BA admixture was retained from the previous population, that is different from Anatolian_BA. That is why the modeling Greeks, Albanians, and Italians, does not work with Levant_BA, but it does with Anatolian_BA. Just because your haplogroup happens to exist among Levant_BA, doesn't negate the fact that J2 is found all over Anatolia, and the Balkans, with the strong possibility it existed in other places at the time of Levant_BA.

----------


## Dema

> J2-M205 was an insignificant Y-DNA among Levantines/Canaanites as well, probably they were present in pockets here and there, in minority in comparison with Y-DNA J1 sub-clades and E-M35 which are the true Proto - Semitic lineages, especially the latter as the language bearer of Pre Proto-Semitic.



This has nothing with this thread. but you have no clue how wrong you are. J2-M205 was consistently found in Levant Bronze Age aDNA.

Actually J1 and J2-M205 haplogroups completely occupied Bronze Age levant aDNA. Pre-semitic Mesolithic and Neolithic Levant was mix of E1b and T1 haplogroups with E1b being dominant in Mesolithic and T1 taking control and becoming major lines in Neolithic Fertile Crescent. 

All J haplotypes have oldest bones in Paleolithic and Neolithic Zagros and Caucasus. While West Middle East in pre-semitic history was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes. However in time of Bronze Age since 3000 BCE when there is fact for first written Semitic language in Mesopotamia, its time when obviously Caucasus but also more likely Zagros populations conquered territory and since then both J1 and J2-M205 is consistently found in Levant Bronze Age aDNA. There is no J haplotypes in Middle East before Early Bronze Age. 

Oldest proof for Semitic language existence is found in 3000 BCE Mesopotamia, therefore clearly in time when J haplotypes already took control of E1b and T1 tribes and so far i would say origin of Semitic lies in combination of various J haplogroups with probably J1 being more dominant or rather of higher percentage but i would not classify J2-M205 as insignificant because regarding aDNA is at least just as significant as J1 if not more because for such a small haplogroup we have extraordinary aDNA. 

You would have to read at least 3 researches about this, as obviously everything is published and if you google i am sure you can find everything. But ofc i can post links and proves for everything if needed or asked. 


And please dont bother me anymore, start learning haplogroups and Y-DNA. Dema out.

----------


## Hawk

lol, your self-dellusion that you are knowledgeable about Y-DNA's remind of Don Quixote. We all know those information, don't be an arrogant parrot.

Proto-Semitic language doesn't have a Northern Mesopotamian/Zagros to Levant direction, it's the opposite considering it belongs to Afro-Asiatic language family. Obviously only two Y-DNA are major contenders: Y-DNA E-M35 and J1, with some minority J2b which is insignificant to this days, J2a is far more representative in Levant than J2b.

And yes, this thread is about Albanians, and you can do us a favour to shut your complexes, and don't derail discussions with your Y-DNA subclade, no one cares in this thread.

----------


## Jovialis

> Dema out.


Thank god.

----------


## Hawk

> Thank god.


I am concerned about people when they refer to themselves in the third person.

----------


## Dema

> Levant_BA is different from Anatolian_BA, because about half of Levant_BA admixture was retained from the previous population, that is different from Anatolian_BA. That is why the modeling Greeks, Albanians, and Italians, does not work with Levant_BA, but it does with Anatolian_BA. Just because your haplogroup happens to exist among Levant_BA, doesn't negate the fact that J2 is found all over Anatolia, and the Balkans, with the strong possibility it existed in other places at the time of Levant_BA.



Yes i understood that, Anatolian_BA is similar to Levant_BA, but Levant_BA has probably more of its native Levant genetics which was regarding Y-DNA predominately E1b and T1. Probably mix of E1b (Africa), and T1 (branch which arrived from Caucasus). This makes a bit of problem in modeling but i am sure that according to SNP tests which was already done this can be revealed unlike in PCA plotting. I think researches already confirmed autosomal SNPs which Italians and Middle East shares if you read more carefully. 

Regarding J2-M205 seems it has been small Zagros population which together with other J haplotypes where biggest of them was J1 spread from Zagros to Levant in Early Bronze Age. It has formed date 16000 ybp but TMRCA 5900 ybp. It has confirmed multiple 4500 ybp aDNA in Bronze Age Levant (Israel 2500 BCE, Jordan 2500 BCE, Phoenician Canaanite Sidon 1600 BCE).

Therefore all J2-M205 man share same ancestor with aDNA in Bronze Age Levant (4500 ybp) in timeframe of 5900 ybp. And all J2-M205 man come from one man who lived 5900 years ago.

Its split 16 000 years away from other closest J lines. Albanian J lines are predominately J2-L283 which split from J2-M205 16 000 years ago. Therefore entirely other migration and history. As i said Albanian J2-L283 is still mystery but they are probably Zagros Neolithic expansion to Caucasus where they were smaller population until picked up by R1b Yamnaya arrivals.

Greek J is predominately J2-M410, Earlier Caucasus and Zagros Neolithic, later ABA. 

There is not a proof for single J2-M205 clade that it spread before Roman Empire into Europe.

Even after hundreds of tested ancient bones all over Europe there is no proof that any J1 or J2-M205 spread during Bronze Age Europe. But they are both found together consistently in Bronze Age Levant.

First appearance of J1-P58 and J2-M205 we see in Europe are from Ancient Rome study and they start to appear in Imperial Roman period. But since there was no data for republican and pre-republican time i assume they probably started to appear since Punic Wars until end of Byzantine Empire. 

Among first J2-M205 aDNA was Roman Gladiator from England which again had clear Middle-Eastern autosomal https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogeno...ddle-eastener/

He was found together with few other R1b gladiators.

Look J2-M205 in Yfull https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Does this not look like Semitic haplogroup to you ? : )

----------


## Dema

Look what research says: even this should already confirm you what i am saying entire time:



_Strikingly, one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East, confirming the cosmopolitan character of the Empire, even at its northernmost fringes. […]_
_Seven ancient genomes are sampled from a cemetery in Roman York dated between the second and the fourth century AD […]_
_the majority (6/7) of_ _Driffield Terrace__ samples belong to sub-lineages of R1b-L52/L11 […] Sample_ _3DRIF-26__, on the other hand, despite belonging to the same burial context, presented a lineage consistent with haplogroup_ _J2-L228__ […] majority were adults under 45 years old, male and most had evidence of_ _decapitation__._

----------


## Angela

Read this paper to find out which lineage is a marker of Phoenician diffusion through the Mediterranean. If you continue spewing nonsense after reading this, you're out of here. We can't have people posting completely false information in direct contravention of academic studies.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

----------


## ihype02

That haplogroup is like 1% in Italians and Albanians, it is unlikely it is ultimately Semitic, even if it was it's like 1%, let it go.

----------


## kingjohn

I checked my mother 
Matches in family finder
She have a matching segment in chromosome 9 with a person from kosovo
Which she didn't pass me  :Smile: 
Balkan dna unite much more than what 
People think.

P.s 
This is the third albanian match she has, 
The other two
one of them is also in chromosome 9 but in different place ...
The other one is in chromosome 1 .... :Thinking:

----------


## Hawk

These are my top 25 populations in G25

Distance to:
Progon_scaled

0.02208450
Albanian

0.02223885
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.02615174
Greek_Thessaly

0.03190721
Swiss_Italian

0.03270794
Italian_Tuscany

0.03282051
Greek_Peloponnese

0.03285553
Italian_Piedmont

0.03499672
Italian_Marche

0.03575619
Gagauz

0.03621515
Italian_Veneto

0.03675538
Bulgarian

0.03703866
Italian_Umbria

0.03767072
Macedonian

0.03827807
Italian_Northeast

0.03839669
Greek_Izmir

0.03945753
Italian_Molise

0.04018437
Italian_Bergamo

0.04083347
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.04122828
Italian_Liguria

0.04179356
Italian_Lazio

0.04195991
Romanian

0.04260177
Italian_Abruzzo

0.04272890
Italian_Lombardy

0.04367691
French_Corsica

0.04644384
Serbian



Averaged Albanian

Distance to:
Albanian

0.01172523
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.01647191
Greek_Thessaly

0.02621927
Greek_Peloponnese

0.02764228
Italian_Tuscany

0.02824767
Swiss_Italian

0.02837148
Italian_Piedmont

0.02864146
Gagauz

0.02928925
Italian_Marche

0.03115133
Greek_Izmir

0.03122240
Bulgarian

0.03123173
Italian_Umbria

0.03281939
Italian_Molise

0.03485838
Italian_Veneto

0.03520665
Italian_Abruzzo

0.03532947
Macedonian

0.03557118
Italian_Lazio

0.03625818
Italian_Liguria

0.03725645
Italian_Bergamo

0.03739630
Italian_Northeast

0.03834255
French_Corsica

0.03850606
Romanian

0.03882988
Italian_Apulia

0.03901760
Italian_Lombardy

0.03936900
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.04005893
Italian_Basilicata

----------


## Angela

> These are my top 25 populations in G25
> 
> Distance to:
> Progon_scaled
> 
> 0.02208450
> Albanian
> 
> 0.02223885
> ...



Very odd placement of Italian provinces relative to one another. Particularly odd that an Albanian would be closer to A Swiss Italian of all things than Tuscany and other Italian provinces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's got some wonky regional Italian samples. Maybe they're from Sizzi from who knows what source.

----------


## Hawk

Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 2.4082% / 0.02408223

48.2
SRB_N



42.8
Corded_Ware_DEU



4.8
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



4.2
Iberia_MN





Target: HRV_EBA
Distance: 2.6429% / 0.02642909

37.6
GRC_Peloponnese_N



36.2
Corded_Ware_DEU



15.0
Iberia_MN



9.8
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



1.4
Taforalt


Target: HRV_MBA
Distance: 1.7605% / 0.01760454

28.8
GRC_Peloponnese_N



22.8
Corded_Ware_DEU



21.8
UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA



13.4
SRB_N



13.2
Iberia_MN






Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.0506% / 0.02050612

37.0
GRC_Peloponnese_N



27.0
SRB_N



13.8
Corded_Ware_DEU



11.8
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



7.4
UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA



3.0
Baltic_EST_BA





Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.1308% / 0.02130805

39.0
GRC_Peloponnese_N



24.2
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps



23.2
SRB_N



6.2
Corded_Ware_DEU



4.8
Iberia_MN



2.0
Baltic_EST_BA



0.6
UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA



Interesting how HRV_MBA shows increase of Srubnaya admixture.

----------


## Hawk

Also, interesting how HRV_EBA, HRV_MBA and HRV_IA require Iberia_MN with HRV_EBA requiring additional Taforalt 1%.

----------


## Dibran

Here is mine for example. 

*G25 Ancient Average Scaled:*

Distance to:
Dibran_scaled

0.03819516
UKR_Cimmerian_o

0.03979503
HRV_MBA

0.04350113
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.04463139
ITA_Rome_MA

0.04538327
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance

0.04556745
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

0.04576255
BGR_IA

0.05032631
Scythian_MDA

0.05182707
TUR_IA_low_res

0.05209172
Levant_LBN_MA_o4

0.05223886
IND_Roopkund_B

0.05234364
HRV_EBA

0.05280019
HRV_IA

0.05457912
BGR_EBA

0.05636563
ITA_Etruscan

0.05701967
ITA_Proto-Villanovan

0.05736240
DEU_MA_o

0.05791531
HUN_BA

0.05847323
Bell_Beaker_ITA

0.06167637
HUN_MA_Szolad_o1

0.06206766
ITA_Villanovan

0.06317539
ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA

0.06330347
Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE

0.06412221
DEU_Roman

0.06434883
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA




*G25 Modern Average Scaled:
*
Distance to:
Dibran_scaled

0.03307345
Albanian

0.03362317
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03371168
Greek_Peloponnese

0.03843979
Greek_Thessaly

0.04079163
Italian_Tuscany

0.04080310
Italian_Umbria

0.04150649
Swiss_Italian

0.04165860
Greek_Izmir

0.04297133
Italian_Piedmont

0.04460989
French_Corsica

0.04495230
Italian_Marche

0.04512751
Italian_Lazio

0.04564201
Italian_Veneto

0.04581532
Italian_Molise

0.04779166
Italian_Bergamo

0.04826116
Italian_Abruzzo

0.05007064
Italian_Northeast

0.05097348
Macedonian

0.05101764
Bulgarian

0.05103895
Italian_Basilicata

0.05137331
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

0.05146584
Italian_Apulia

0.05150339
Gagauz

0.05355549
Italian_Lombardy

0.05549639
Romanian



*Ancient & Modern Scaled:*

Distance to:
Dibran_scaled

0.03307345
Albanian

0.03362317
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.03371168
Greek_Peloponnese

0.03819516
UKR_Cimmerian_o

0.03843979
Greek_Thessaly

0.03979503
HRV_MBA

0.04079163
Italian_Tuscany

0.04080310
Italian_Umbria

0.04150649
Swiss_Italian

0.04165860
Greek_Izmir

0.04297133
Italian_Piedmont

0.04350113
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.04460989
French_Corsica

0.04463139
ITA_Rome_MA

0.04495230
Italian_Marche

0.04512751
Italian_Lazio

0.04538327
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance

0.04556745
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

0.04564201
Italian_Veneto

0.04576255
BGR_IA

0.04581532
Italian_Molise

0.04779166
Italian_Bergamo

0.04826116
Italian_Abruzzo

0.05007064
Italian_Northeast

0.05032631
Scythian_MDA



*Ancient Averaged Unscaled:*

Distance to:
Dibran

0.02071232
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

0.02294058
UKR_Cimmerian_o

0.02336878
HRV_MBA

0.02485089
IND_Roopkund_B

0.02501080
BGR_IA

0.02532411
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance

0.02657749
Scythian_MDA

0.02784097
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.02947279
GRC_Mycenaean

0.02959307
TUR_IA_low_res

0.03006683
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1

0.03053572
Levant_LBN_MA_o4

0.03054532
TUR_Isparta_EBA

0.03060085
ITA_Rome_MA

0.03201531
DEU_MA_o

0.03209692
BGR_EBA

0.03219527
ITA_Rome_Imperial

0.03336342
Scythian_HUN

0.03390443
HUN_BA

0.03403248
DEU_Roman

0.03501650
ITA_Sardinia_IA

0.03523613
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

0.03549616
Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

0.03552895
TUR_Ovaoren_EBA

0.03611717
ITA_Villanovan



*
Modern Average Unscaled:
*
Distance to:
Dibran

0.01802422
Greek_Peloponnese

0.02104356
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.02132171
Greek_Izmir

0.02139280
Albanian

0.02633785
Greek_Thessaly

0.02648207
Italian_Basilicata

0.02676870
Italian_Umbria

0.02684215
Greek_Kos

0.02737663
Italian_Molise

0.02750118
Turkish_Rumeli

0.02751184
Macedonian

0.02760827
Bulgarian

0.02795416
Italian_Calabria

0.02821664
Swiss_Italian

0.02821979
Romanian

0.02849987
Italian_Tuscany

0.02877807
Italian_Northeast

0.02879109
Italian_Abruzzo

0.02881555
Italian_Apulia

0.02893018
Montenegrin

0.02916004
Italian_Campania

0.02934133
Italian_Veneto

0.02950539
Italian_Lazio

0.03017011
French_Corsica

0.03045210
Gagauz



*Ancient & Modern Unscaled:

*Distance to:
Dibran

0.01802422
Greek_Peloponnese

0.02071232
ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

0.02104356
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.02132171
Greek_Izmir

0.02139280
Albanian

0.02294058
UKR_Cimmerian_o

0.02336878
HRV_MBA

0.02485089
IND_Roopkund_B

0.02501080
BGR_IA

0.02532411
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance

0.02633785
Greek_Thessaly

0.02648207
Italian_Basilicata

0.02657749
Scythian_MDA

0.02676870
Italian_Umbria

0.02684215
Greek_Kos

0.02737663
Italian_Molise

0.02750118
Turkish_Rumeli

0.02751184
Macedonian

0.02760827
Bulgarian

0.02784097
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.02795416
Italian_Calabria

0.02821664
Swiss_Italian

0.02821979
Romanian

0.02849987
Italian_Tuscany

0.02877807
Italian_Northeast

----------


## Hawk

This Szolad Sz43 sample is the closest ancient sample to me, it looks like he was a Pannonian probably?

Distance to:
Progon_scaled

0.03299762
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43

0.03438320
IND_Roopkund_B:I6936

0.03482785
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36

0.03756047
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37

0.03832633
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55

0.03939553
IND_Roopkund_B:I3404

0.03943402
Scythian_MDA:scy192

0.03964654
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33

0.04018759
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36

0.04031992
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.04085139
DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54

0.04117742
ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b

0.04135765
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970

0.04174284
HRV_MBA:I4331

0.04206426
HUN_BA:I7043

0.04232969
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28

0.04239937
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287

0.04252108
ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

0.04253080
UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12

0.04254209
Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53

0.04297053
HRV_EBA:I3499

0.04341950
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32

0.04392579
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04399249
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310

0.04423490
HRV_IA:I3313

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Very odd placement of Italian provinces relative to one another. Particularly odd that an Albanian would be closer to A Swiss Italian of all things than Tuscany and other Italian provinces.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's got some wonky regional Italian samples. Maybe they're from Sizzi from who knows what source.


If it's G25, G25 averages are from academic samples (and here it would be necessary to open another discussion, on how reliable academic samples are, and how many mistakes the creator of the G25 can make, both in good faith and in bad faith). Sizzi has nothing to do with G25.

----------


## ihype02

> This Szolad Sz43 sample is the closest ancient sample to me, it looks like he was a Pannonian probably?
> 
> Distance to:
> Progon_scaled
> 
> 0.03299762
> HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
> 
> 0.03438320
> ...


I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.

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## blevins13

> I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.


I am closer to SZ36. (590 AD)
But more interesting is SZ1 (1000 BC)



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## Hawk

> I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.


Yes, he was from Western part of Hungary, Szolad region. I don't know what was his affiliations but he was some sort of Y-DNA I2a2 (not the current Balkan clade).

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## blevins13

> Yes, he was from Western part of Hungary, Szolad region. I don't know what was his affiliations but he was some sort of Y-DNA I2a2 (not the current Balkan clade).


This came from this study: Understanding 6th-century barbarian social organization and migration through paleogenomics

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4




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## torzio

> I am closer to SZ36. (590 AD)
> But more interesting is SZ1 (1000 BC)
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


SZ1 is closer to central europe and northern balkans

Distance to:
HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1

0.03959387
Scythian_MDA:scy305

0.04072557
ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

0.04644136
ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23

0.04664864
HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37

0.04998453
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310

0.05183235
Scythian_MDA:scy197

0.05271694
DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54

0.05287391
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR60

0.05293926
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524

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## blevins13

> SZ1 is closer to central europe and northern balkans
> 
> Distance to:
> HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1
> 
> 0.03959387
> Scythian_MDA:scy305
> 
> 0.04072557
> ...


SZ1 seems Hallstatt 


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## Henrique

Interesting topic, but I don't know the answer. 
I used as a source for the eastern Mediterranean the average of Crete, for the western Mediterranean the people of Sardinia, for 'Nordic' the average of Norway And for northeastern Europe the Ukrainian average.


Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5340% / 0.01533967

54.2
East_Med



27.0
North_east_europe



16.8
Southwest_Euro



1.8
Nordic



0.2
Nganassan

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## Crank

> You may already have done this, but in case you haven't.
> 
> If you're speaking of sample 13313, this is what mta says are his closest modern populations:
> 1. Spanish_Extremadura (6.749)
> 2. Spanish_Murcia (6.887)
> 3. Spanish_Cataluna (6.957)
> 4. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (7.206)
> 5. Spanish_Andalucia (7.233)
> 6. Spanish_Valencia (7.494)
> ...



On the original paper it was concluded that the Illyrian / Bronze Age female sample found in Dalmatia was clustering closest to other Balkan people, She is the JAZ1 on this PCA Map. She was actually found many years ago. 




Other Ancient Balkan samples also appeared closer to Albanians and other Balkan people rather than Italians on the original that I saw published by David Reich apparently (like that one found in Moldova/Romania) except for one Bronze Age found in Western Montenegro which was like an Iberian. 

I contacted Reich's former colleagues and they told me most of these samples are low quality. There was also an Iron Age from 900 or so that was extreme low quality apparently and on gedmatch it clustered like a North-East European. There are some others that have been found that on gedmatch clustered weird too. 


I don't understand why a Bronze Age from Hungary would be clustering closest to Kosovars. Clearly this must be a coincidence. But that was also not too far away from Illyrian territory. Just a bit north actually.

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## Crank

Some Thracians also found years ago clustered really South or really North and some just East of Tuscans. These people were clearly a mix of different populations so even by the Bronze Age or Iron Age such genes weren't fully diluted to produce Greek like or Albanian like people. Therefore I don't see what's the point of comparing them to such a small population like Albanians that descendant, according to genetic studies, from a small population that rapidly expanded within the last 1500 years and showing one of the highest IBD sharing within their own population among Europeans. (But apparently also sharing a lot of ancestors with Italians, Macedonians, Greeks and other Balkanites.) 

It is likely a cluster like Albanians formed much later from a small population resulting from a bottle neck effect. Does not mean it's main ancestor is not Illyrian. Or Thracian or anything. As it is clear Albanians are from a pre-Slavic Balkan population and the language originated somewhere north of the jirek line, most plausible would be Western or Central Balkans IMO.

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## Angela

> On the original paper it was concluded that the Illyrian / Bronze Age female sample found in Dalmatia was clustering closest to other Balkan people, She is the JAZ1 on this PCA Map. She was actually found many years ago. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other Ancient Balkan samples also appeared closer to Albanians and other Balkan people rather than Italians on the original that I saw published by David Reich apparently (like that one found in Moldova/Romania) except for one Bronze Age found in Western Montenegro which was like an Iberian. 
> 
> I contacted Reich's former colleagues and they told me most of these samples are low quality. There was also an Iron Age from 900 or so that was extreme low quality apparently and on gedmatch it clustered like a North-East European. There are some others that have been found that on gedmatch clustered weird too. 
> 
> ...


I don't know to which paper you're referring or the exact source of that PDA. At any rate, I have no idea why you'd base any conclusions whatsoever on samples of this kind of quality. 

Ignore them, would be my advice. 

We have decent quality samples. Draw your conclusions from those.

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