# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  New haplogroup I2a map

## Maciamo

I have created a new map for Y-haplogroup I2a1 (P37.2), including I2a1a (M26) and I2a1b (M423). Data is still sparse or unreliable for Bulgaria, Romania and the Middle East. For instance some studies give a very unreasonable 1% of I2a in Bulgaria while others go over 40%. 

The problem in the Middle East is that few studies distinguish subclades of I. There shouldn't be any significant number of I1 or I2b beyond Western Anatolia, but that doesn't mean that all I is I2a. There could be I* and I2*. I had choice but resort to some guesswork. A study on Kurdistan gave 33% of hg I for the Zazaki Turks of eastern Anatolia. I doubt that all of it is I2a, but it's possible considering the high percentage of R1a (26%) and the fact that they are Indo-European speakers.

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## Joro

Which study for Bulgarians shows over 40% of I2a?
I've seen one and it gives 0% of I2a for them.

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## Maciamo

I have made some modifications. I forgot the Castillan I2a hotspot from Flores' study. 

I2a2 hotspots : Macedonia and the western Czech Republic.

Italy, Switzerland and Germany mark the East-West divide between I2a2 and I2a1.

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## Joro

I didn't know there is so much I2a in Ukraine.Is there any study to back this up?
I've only seen that north-eastern Romania respresents enclave of noticeably higher I2a,but not outside that.

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## Joro

In western Croatia(Istria) I2a is very low,and falls to about 10 percent.
http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.htm

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## Joro

> Italy, Switzerland and Germany mark the East-West divide between I2a2 and I2a1.


In northern Italy(Trento) it has been found about 10 percent of I2a1*
http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html

it is the same I2a version which applies to Bosniaks,Croats etc. according to this last study

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## Wilhelm

According to the Eupedia Y-DNA table, Turkey has 4% of I2a, which does not correlate with the map

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## Maciamo

> Which study for Bulgarians shows over 40% of I2a?
> I've seen one and it gives 0% of I2a for them.


This one (p.67) gives 42% of I. There is very little I1 or I2b in Bulgaria, so most of it is I2a.

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## Maciamo

> I didn't know there is so much I2a in Ukraine.Is there any study to back this up?
> I've only seen that north-eastern Romania respresents enclave of noticeably higher I2a,but not outside that.


Balanovsky et al. (2008) : check the map of I2a2.

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## Joro

> Balanovsky et al. (2008)


Yeah,is this it?
http://thegeneticatlas.com/study_balanovsky2008.htm

I can see it is often above 20% in Ukraine,but still north-east Romania has much more(over 40%),and maybe it should be distinguished.
The way how it is now makes one think that the secondary maximum is in Ukraine,which is not true,it is North-East Romania,or should i say the historical province of Moldova.

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## Maciamo

> According to the Eupedia Y-DNA table, Turkey has 4% of I2a, which does not correlate with the map


Lots of contradictory data. Turkey has big regional variations, but not enough detailed studies. I chose the colour for 5-10% overall, but I think I should change it to 1-5% outside the Aegean coast and Kurdistan.

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## Joro

> This one (p.67) gives 42% of I. There is very little I1 or I2b in Bulgaria, so most of it is I2a.


Im' not so sure absolutely all is,it should be further analysed.
Recent researches show there is some 8-10 percent of I1 in north Greece,Macedonia and that area,also there has been found 4 percent of I2b in Albania.

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## Joro

This 42 percent of I for Bulgarians is suspicios.Where is the concrete study which shows those numbers?the number of samples aren't given at all

here is what i found as well,from Bulgarian DNA project:
http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/top...n-dna-project/

It says haplogroup I(almost all I2a) in Bulgars is 22,5 percent followed by E with 21,5.

so we have two obviously undersampled studies,one shows 0 percent I2a for Bulgarians,other 40 percent,and one researcj from Bulgarian Y-DNA project which shows 22 percent.
and you said there is one study which shows 1 percent also.

how did you end up those 33 percent for Bulgarians then?

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## Maciamo

I have made the necessary amendments.

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## Maciamo

> This 42 percent of I for Bulgarians is suspicios.Where is the concrete study which shows those numbers?the number of samples aren't given at all
> 
> here is what i found as well,from Bulgarian DNA project:
> http://dna-forums.com/index.php?/top...n-dna-project/
> 
> It says haplogroup I(almost all I2a) in Bulgars is 22,5 percent followed by E with 21,5.
> 
> so we have two obviously undersampled studies,one shows 0 percent I2a for Bulgarians,other 40 percent,and one researcj from Bulgarian Y-DNA project which shows 22 percent.
> and you said there is one study which shows 1 percent also.
> ...


On the map south-east Bulgaria is 10-15% I2a and the north-west is 15-20%. I think that is a safe compromise until a more detailed study is made.

I will modify the percentage in the grid too. I proceeded by elimination to get to 33%. I calculated the average for R1a, R1b, E, G and J in various studies, and was left with 37% of undetermined I. I estimated that there couldn't be more than 3% of I1 and 1% of I2b, so I lumped the rest as I2a. But I may have overlooked the possibility that a low but substantial percentage (up to 3%) of Bulgarian Y-DNA could be of Central or East Asian origin (C, F, K, N, O, P and Q) owing to the numerous Turkic tribes that settled in the region. However I have no study to support it. I have readjusted the Y-DNA percentages for Bulgaria, and drastically cut I2a from 33% to 20% and increased a bit all the other haplogroups to compensate.

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## Joro

Thanks Maciamo,I'm glad you are willing to cooperate.The data is vast and scarced and I understand there might be some confusions.

To me it makes no logic that Bulgarians have so much I2a,concerning their location they should have mostly Neolithic haplogroups,like other Balkan countries(except Croatia and Bosnia) and Romania.
Obviously I2a falls abruptly when going further from Croatian-Bosnian dinaric area.
Albania,Macedonia and north Greece have 17-18 percent of I2a,Romania 15 to 20 percent overall so i think there is no logic that Bulgarians have more.

I'm surprised there exists(although highly undersampled and old) a study which shows 42 percent of haplogroup I for Bulgarians,I thought there was such a study which shows that Bulgarians have 42% of R1b.
But this Bulgarian Y-DNA project is the most sistematic reasearch done for Bulgarians so far.

And I have one more doubt...where are the sources for Belarussian 25% of I2a?

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## Joro

Maciamo,how about that you make a sub-grid below Bosnia and Herzegovina and show distinct percentages for three disctinct ethnic groups(Croats,Serbs,Bosniaks).Those people are of different geographical origin.Serbs in Bosnia came from Serbia mostly,Bosniaks descend greatly from Islamized Croats,Serbs and Hungarians and from significant number of Near Eastern colonists,and Croats are in vast majority autochtonous(which genetics shows).
I see you have the same for Basques in Spain and Bashirs in Russia.

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## Maciamo

> To me it makes no logic that Bulgarians have so much I2a,concerning their location they should have mostly Neolithic haplogroups,like other Balkan countries(except Croatia and Bosnia) and Romania.
> Obviously I2a falls abruptly when going further from Croatian-Bosnian dinaric area.


Haplogroup I represents the Paleolithic Europeans. Presumably there was only I2a2 in the Balkans and Carpathians prior to the arrival of Near-Eastern farmers and herders during the Neolithic. So I2a2 is not just Dinaric. It is Paleolithic south-east European.

I am convinced that the I2a2 hunter-gatherers learned farming fairly quickly from their Near-Eastern neighbours and that many of the cultures of Old Europe were predominantly I2a2 (like Cucuteni-Tripolye) or heavily mixed (probably the case in Bulgaria). 





> And I have one more doubt...where are the sources for Belarussian 25% of I2a?


Wiik's study in link above gives 30% of I in Belarus (mostly I2a2). Balanovsky's map of I1b (I2a2) shows 16-21% of I2a2 in the southern half of Belarus and 11-16% in the northern half.

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## Joro

And have you taken this study in consideration?
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

It shows Belarussians have 15 percent of I2a.

So we have two studies where haplogroup I is defined into modern subclades and it shows 15 percent of I2a for Belarussians.

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## Maciamo

> And have you taken this study in consideration?
> http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf
> 
> It shows Belarussians have 15 percent of I2a.
> 
> So we have two studies where haplogroup I is defined into modern subclades and it shows 15 percent of I2a for Belarussians.


Yes, it is part of the studies used by Wiik for his averages.

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## Joro

but where are studies which would show more than 15 percent of I2a for Belarus then?

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## Maciamo

> but where are studies which would show more than 15 percent of I2a for Belarus then?


Wiik gets an average 29.7% of I. He cites Balanovsky, Rootsi, Laitinen, Rosser and Nasidze, but doesn't give the detail of the calculation.

I checked each study, but only Rosser gives clear percentages of I for Belarus (34%) but the sample is small (n=41) and subclades aren't distinguished. It is the same study that found 42% of haplogroup I in the Bulgarians, with an even smaller sample size (only 24 individuals !).

I will lower the percentage of I2a for Belarus from 25% to 18% in the Y-DNA table. Balanovsky's average is about 18%. If it is less I don't know what other haplogroup to increase without contradicting other studies.

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## Joro

Are all the studies above accesible to public?
Anyway,I don't believe Belarus has 25 percent of I2a,at least not until I see scientific study which shows that exact numbers.
Also I see that Estonia for example has 15 percent of I1,why can't Belarus then as well have close numbers?we also could add 1-2 percent of I2b.

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## Joro

Laitinen doesn't give any I numbers for Belarus as I can see

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## Joro

OK,I see you've lowered it.That is alright.
That study which shows 42% for Bulgarians and 34% for Belarus is very weird...

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## Joro

What do you say to show percentages for three ethnic groups in Bosnia-Herzegovina below the main grid for BH?

this study is the most accurate and with the latest definitions of subclades concerning that:
http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html

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## willy

That I map shows the ancestrors of the I.E origin . The glacial refuge of europeans !

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## Joro

> Balanovsky et al. (2008) : check the map of I2a2.


I've seen this on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vologda#Culture

Interesting,so a lot of Russian and Ukrainian Haplogroup I could be atributed to Scandinavian I1 as well.
I hope you took that in account,Maciamo?

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## Joro

And what's even more interesting,and I haven't noted that yet,that this,latest study states that Ukrainians,and Poles as well,have no I2a at all:
http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html 
The sampling is good,92 Ukrainians and 99 Poles.So,no objections can be made,not at all.

how to explain that suddenly?seems that haplogroup I is still misterious and has to be defined more properly.

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## Joro

One definite conclusion that can be made from these numbers is that I2a haplogroup hasn't got absolutely any connection with Slavic people.
If there was any 'hope',now it's dead.

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## LeBrok

What's your secret agenda denying I2a to anyone else but Croatians. Will this make you super special or something? Are you starting new religion for Croats?
Why study showing none I2a in Slavs is right, if it shows any must be wrong? Do you have any other proof, maybe a legend or something?

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## Joro

> What's your secret agenda denying I2a to anyone else but Croatians. Will this make you super special or something? Are you starting new religion for Croats?
> Why study showing none I2a in Slavs is right, if it shows any must be wrong? Do you have any other proof, maybe a legend or something?


Nope,I'm not gonna feel superior,you got it totally wrong.I only care about accuracy.
Actually,I would propose Maciamo to cut down I2a percentage for Croatia,since last study shows 34 percent and Eupedia lists 42 percent.
But he seems busy and rarely replying on posts.

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## Maciamo

> And what's even more interesting,and I haven't noted that yet,that this,latest study states that Ukrainians,and Poles as well,have no I2a at all:
> http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/Are...mento2986.html 
> The sampling is good,92 Ukrainians and 99 Poles.So,no objections can be made,not at all.
> 
> how to explain that suddenly?seems that haplogroup I is still misterious and has to be defined more properly.


It might be an omission or a mistake since the same study shows 10-20% og I2a2 on the map on page 6.

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## Maciamo

> One definite conclusion that can be made from these numbers is that I2a haplogroup hasn't got absolutely any connection with Slavic people.
> If there was any 'hope',now it's dead.


Well I don't quite agree. The Slavs are an Indo-European people descending from the R1a1a (forest-)steppe people, but they assimilated a lot of I2a2 people from Old Europe before Proto-Indo-European speakers spoke Proto-Slavic. Just like Proto-Germanic Indo-Europeans assimilated Paleolithic I1 people in Scandinavia, Proto-Slavs were an R1a majority with a substantial I2a2 minority. Proto-Slavic speakers might well have borrowed a few words from the language of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people. 

Slavic language probably developed around Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, then re-expanded to Russia, bringing I2a2 (and maybe a bit of northern Polish I1) with them. Just look at Kuban Cossacks in the North Caucasus or European Russians in Siberia and Central Asia; their haplogroups are the same and found in the same proportions are European Russians. It's easy to imagine how I2a2 (but also E-V13, J2 or I1) might have spread around East Slavic countries this way.

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## Joro

> It might be an omission or a mistake since the same study shows 10-20% og I2a2 on the map on page 6.


There is always a possibility,of course,but i doubt they would left out those numbers and noone would know nothing 'just like that'.
On page 6 I just see slightly colored area,as if leaving the possibility there are slight percentages of I2a.Same thing is for central Italy on the map,they probably gave an approximation based on geographical proximity with west Balkans.

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## Joro

> Well I don't quite agree. The Slavs are an Indo-European people descending from the R1a1a (forest-)steppe people, but they assimilated a lot of I2a2 people from Old Europe before Proto-Indo-European speakers spoke Proto-Slavic. Just like Proto-Germanic Indo-Europeans assimilated Paleolithic I1 people in Scandinavia, Proto-Slavs were an R1a majority with a substantial I2a2 minority. Proto-Slavic speakers might well have borrowed a few words from the language of the Cucuteni-Tripolye people. 
> 
> Slavic language probably developed around Ukraine, Poland and Belarus, then re-expanded to Russia, bringing I2a2 (and maybe a bit of northern Polish I1) with them. Just look at Kuban Cossacks in the North Caucasus or European Russians in Siberia and Central Asia; their haplogroups are the same and found in the same proportions are European Russians. It's easy to imagine how I2a2 (but also E-V13, J2 or I1) might have spread around East Slavic countries this way.


That's a well put theory,but I doubt Slavs have brought any I2a2 with them,nothing more than R1b or I1 for example.I've explained why many times on this site,I'm lazy to do it again.
Though,one more reason might be added:negligible amounts(0% !) of I2a in Poland and Ukraine.

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## Maciamo

> That's a well put theory,but I doubt Slavs have brought any I2a2 with them,nothing more than R1b or I1 for example.I've explained why many times on this site,I'm lazy to do it again.
> Though,one more reason might be added:negligible amounts(0% !) of I2a in Poland and Ukraine.


I have seen plenty of studies of Poland or Russia, and I2a2 is not negligible.

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## Joro

I'm afraid I'd have to concur to that,because:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg200921a.html

I hope such errors won't happen in future,because one number shift could change the comprehension of entire study.

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## LeBrok

I guess, Joro, the truth is different than what you imagined. And errors, well they happen all the time and they always will. That's why you need to combine many studies and average the numbers for greater probability to be closer to the truth. Exactly what Maciamo is doing. On top of it we are probably good 10 years when bigger studies are done with greater resolution and confirmed by others. But so far this is the best Maciamo can do with existing data.
If you still don't like it so much, stop complaining and make your own map. And why not? You seam to know much better. Looking forward to checking your map and complaining about it.

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## Joro

Well,in search for scientific truth there are always errors.I admit I was wrong,although actually It is not me who was wrong but scientists who made that study which listed erroneous numbers for I2a in certain countries.

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## Joro

> This one (p.67) gives 42% of I. There is very little I1 or I2b in Bulgaria, so most of it is I2a.


Maciamo,how come this study gives 26 percent of I haplogroup for Italians,and you have listed only 6-7 percent in the Eupedia table?

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## Wilhelm

> Maciamo,how come this study gives 26 percent of I haplogroup for Italians,and you have listed only 6-7 percent in the Eupedia table?


Actually it gives 6.5 %.

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## Joro

> Actually it gives 6.5 %.


Nope,there are two studies presented for Italians in that paper,the other gives them 26.7 percent.Check out 'Scozzari et al.'

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## rms2

My stepson is I2a from Volgograd in Russia, where his y-dna line has lived as far back as they can remember. His closest matches are Polish.

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## Maciamo

> Maciamo,how come this study gives 26 percent of I haplogroup for Italians,and you have listed only 6-7 percent in the Eupedia table?


1) because it's a map of I2a, not all I.

2) it's not the only study of Italy. I make averages.

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## Joro

I know,i haven't asked you for the map,but for the y-dna percentages in eupedia grid:)

anyway,really strange study.I felt so ecxited for it because it's so detailed and systematic,but full of weird things,should I say *rap.it gives over 70 percent of I2a in central Croatia which is totally insane,and it shows like 3-4 percent od R1b in Dubrovnik while in reality it is about 20 percent.

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## Joro

and Maciamo,could you please tell me from which study did you made this 10 percent of I1 for FYR Macedonians?Seems very interesting

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## rogers

I2a2-Isles is also found in Scotland as far as I am aware.

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## Maciamo

> I2a2-Isles is also found in Scotland as far as I am aware.


Yes, but at low frequencies.

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## Maciamo

> and Maciamo,could you please tell me from which study did you made this 10 percent of I1 for FYR Macedonians?Seems very interesting


Battaglia (2008) gives 8.8% of I1 in Macedonian Greeks. I think there was another study for FYR Macedonians but can't find it anymore.

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## Joro

Yeah,that's the same study which gives Croatians 9.0% of I1.
I thought there was a specific study for FYROM Macedonians,but I guess we can conclude they have it a lot since their first southern neighbors have it.

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## Wilhelm

Is the I1 in the balkans of paleolithic origin, or was introduced via germanic peoples ?

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## Joro

Obviously it was brought from the north,I doubt any I1 is autochtonous here.

Here are my theories:
1)Slavs were brought by Goths in these areas,2 of 3 books for early Croatian history mentions Croats/Slavs in this are as 'Goths' or 'Goths,who are in fact Slavs','Croats alias Goths'
2)Goths arrived here just before Slavs and were assimilated,so in some way they are 'autochtonous' to this area,check this map:
http://www.s155239215.onlinehome.us/...nHunEmpire.gif
3)Croats may have assimilated great deal of I1 people in their old homeland.
Craniometrical measurements show that early Croats mostly correspond to skelets found on the border of north-eastern Germany and Poland;as I am aware,great deal of I1 is present there.If their 'homeland' was there,they surely assimilated a lot of I1.
4)People who came to western Balkans were simply Slavic-Gothic mix,an alliance of tribes.
5)Most extreme theory-Goths were Slavs themselves,parzitularly eastern Goths,some writers even claim that.

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## LeBrok

There might be a lot of truth in it, Joro. Goths started their trip from middle of Scandinavia. It took them around 150 years to get to the Black Sea. Their main language remained Nordic, but during this slow voyage they most likely collected some Baltic and Slavic (and/or whoever the Venedi or Veleti were) tribes, or at least some genes. Same might apply to Vandals. Eventually these tribes were pushed West by Slavic and Hunnic people. I saw a map somewhere showing Serbs location in Bavaria for couple of hundred of years before moving south.
Definitely lots of mixing around.

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## Joro

yeah,but Serbs have only about 2 percent of I1.

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## Alan

> Zazaki_language"]Zazaki Turks[/URL] of eastern Anatolia. I doubt that all of it is I2a, but it's possible considering the high percentage of R1a (26%) and the fact that they are Indo-European speakers.


Please Dear Maciamo since when we Zazaki speakers became Turks? I have never seen a member of my family calling him self Turk. We speak a Northiranic language related to Parthian and are ethnicly kurdish.

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## Maciamo

> Please Dear Maciamo since when we Zazaki speakers became Turks? I have never seen a member of my family calling him self Turk. We speak a Northiranic language related to Parthian and are ethnicly kurdish.


If you live on the Turkish territory and have the Turkish nationality, you are Turk, no matter what is your ethnicity. Most Turks are ethnic European anyway, not ethnic Turks.

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## how yes no 2

> yeah,but Serbs have only about 2 percent of I1.


actually:

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

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## Alan

> If you live on the Turkish territory and have the Turkish nationality, you are Turk, no matter what is your ethnicity. Most Turks are ethnic European anyway, not ethnic Turks.


Kurds are recognized in Europe as seperate own Group so you are wrong with your oppinion. A nation is not equal to a state you should know that! There is a big difference between a Citizen of Turkey and beeing a ethnic Turk.

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## Maciamo

> Kurds are recognized in Europe as seperate own Group so you are wrong with your oppinion. A nation is not equal to a state you should know that! There is a big difference between a Citizen of Turkey and beeing a ethnic Turk.


I think you confuse nation with ethnicity. In Turkey's case, nation equals state, because it is not a federal country and therefore only has one state for the whole nation. On the other hand there are lots of ethnic groups : Greeks, Armenians, Kurds...

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## Yorkie

> I2a2-Isles is also found in Scotland as far as I am aware.


L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.

So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.

The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.

To reiterate, this small north-west European form of I2a2 is quite distinct from the eastern, Balkans-centred I2a2 that Nordtvedt calls I2a2a-Dinaric. 'Isles' is absent from eastern Europe, and 'Dinaric' [having 2 varieties- 'North' and 'South'] is absent from western Europe.

Curiously, there is a relatively rare intermediate form of I2a2 [nearer in gd to I2a2a-Dinaric than to I2a2b-Isles] called I2a2a-Disles by Nordtvedt. This rarer form has a 'hotspot' in Scotland, followed by Ireland.

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## iapodos

> L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.
> 
> Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.
> 
> I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.
> 
> So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.
> 
> The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.
> ...


This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.

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## how yes no 2

> L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.
> 
> Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.


there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...

I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...

e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
(e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
25 according to classification above is value that only appears in 2 of Isles branches...)

Btw. Maciamo's map of I2a2 shows strange hole of I2a2 in area of east Serbia, while according to data I have seen, only real hole of I2a2 in Balkans seems to be among Albanian population of Kosovo... so I am curious why in Maciamo's map is there no hole in spread of I2a2 in Kosovo, and why is there one in east Serbia....

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## Yorkie

> This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.


Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.

As yet, there is no SNP which defines 'Disles' but it is slightly closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than to the L161 positive, I2a2b-Isles.

I agree with you regarding a Danube Basin origin for the common ancestor of I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles. The 'Isles' mutation L161 probably occurred in northern Germany.

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## Yorkie

> there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...
> 
> I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo
> 
> and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...
> 
> e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-s...DNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
> (e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
> ...


I believe that Nordtvedt _has_ examined eastern European sources, and the findings are that I2a2b-Isles is effectively absent in eastern Europe. It is relatively easy to sort 'Dinaric' varieties from 'Isles' varieties by STR markers, and the type found in the Balkans is definately not the 'Isles' variety. The scientific papers are out of date regarding I2a2. For example, Rootsi et al [2004] did not even examine Britain. The FTDNA I2a Project has tested plenty of the Balkans variety of I2a2 for SNP L161- it always comes out negative. I2a2b-Isles is definately a distinct, north-western European variant of I2a2.

I agree with you that the scientific papers don't, as yet, make these distinctions. However, there is recognition of sorts. Bryan Sykes sees most I2a2 in Britain as Anglo Saxon in origin and not 'Balkan', whilst Jim Wilson [Ethnoancestry] acknowledges this 'Isles' variant of I2a2.

There _are_ a handful of Polish I2a2b-Isles members but more than one has the German surname, 'Krause' and they occur in formerly German areas of Poland.

Look closely, 6 out of 8 Isles subgroups can carry 24 at 390. 24 is not _just_ 'Dinaric' but also the value at dys 390 for most 'Isles'. Besides, we need to look at other markers aside from just 390. The 23s and 25s at 390 might not be significant- mutations happen.

The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
14, 15 at dys 385a,b
12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d

I agree re the hole in the map.

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## iapodos

> Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.


It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.

If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

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## Yorkie

> It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.
> 
> If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir


As _far as we know_ I2a2a-Disles does not seem to appear in eastern Europe but that is not to rule it out.

Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?

You mention Mesolithic culture. Ken Nordtvedt's dating places the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles [B1, B2] squarely in the Neolithic. However, Tim Owen and Ian Adamson, in their blog 'Genes of the Cruthin', conjecture that the oldest I2a2b may in fact date to the late Mesolithic, with a possible connection to the Narrowblade culture which replaced the Broadblade culture in prehistoric Britain.

I think the Danube Basin is a highly probable place of origin for the joint ancestor of I2a2b and I2a2a, and note your Lepenski Ver reference. Who knows at this point? You might be correct.

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## how yes no 2

> The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
> 14, 15 at dys 385a,b
> 12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d.


In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro

385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

DIsles have 15/15 
but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..


464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...

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## Yorkie

> In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro
> 
> 385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
> 13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16
> 
> DIsles have 15/15 
> but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..
> 
> 
> 464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...


Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.

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## iapodos

> Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?


I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.

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## Yorkie

> I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.


 I'm in regular touch with Ken Nordtvedt as a fellow I haplogroup enthusiast, and as yet he is unsure of what to make of the Albanian haplotypes.

So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.

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## how yes no 2

> Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.


very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve

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## iapodos

> So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.


Yes, I 've heard for that. Main specific- low value for DYS 19=14. I have been watching right now all haplotypes listed in last study in Serbia and Montenegro ( about 166 I2a haplotypes overall) and only 4 haplotypes of 166 have DYS=14.
Well I don't know could we call it specifically Croatian characteristic, because in I2a Ftdna Project there is also only four persons with DYS 19=14 among members of both Dinaric south and north. Two of them are Croats, there is a one Slovenian, one Bosnian and one Bulgarian. And there is also plenty of Croats there which have no DYS 19=14.
I think that Nordtvedt write also about some specific Russian I2a2 Dinaric.
However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.

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## Shetop

> However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.


I agree with the most of your thoughts.
I'll just mention one more possibilty regarding history of I2a2. First of all, my definitive opinion is that I2a2 Dinaric originated in Polesia. And if we take that into consideration we may get to the following conclusion - that 2000 years ago all I2a2 subclades were absent from basins made by Alps and Carpathians (Pannonia, Lombardia) including Balkans. I think that this mountain range made of Alps and Carpathians represented borderline for many clades of different haplogroups, and I beleive this is especially the case with I2a2.

So my opinion is that when looking for the place of origin for I2a2 we should look North or East of these mountain ranges.

Speculating about that early history causes very unreliable conclusions in general, but if I would have to say was the place of origin in Northwest Europe, Northern or Eastern Europe, I would bet on Eastern Europe.

I think it might be that earlier European history belonged to G2a3 (Western Europe) and E-V13 (Central Europe).

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## Yorkie

> very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve


Fair enough, 'very different' is too vague. Despite the branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric separating around 13,000 years ago all carriers of I2a2 are genetic cousins. That is how I regard posters such as Shetop, Iapodos and others with I2a2 genes like mine.

What I mean by 'very different' is in relation to tribal/social histories and in terms of culture [values and norms]. I2a2b-Isles is associated with the north-west, with Britain, Ireland and the north European plain and hence with pre-Celtic settlers, Celts, Anglo-Saxons etc. I2a2a-Dinaric represents eastern European populations such as the various Balkan peoples. Sociologically, of course, there are commonalities between these cultures, but there are distinct, easily-identifiable differences between English and Serbian cultures, to give a friendly and respectful example.

The thing to remember though [in my view] is that we are not the sum of our Ydna haplogroup. It is only a small part of our genetic make-up. For example, my Maternal Grandfather's Ydna was I1-Norse, which leans towards Scandinavia. Then there is Mtdna, autosomal etc.

I take your point though. The I2a2 populations are close re Ydna, and I certainly feel an affinity with _all_ fellow I2a2s, be they English, Irish, German, Serbian, Croatian etc.  :Good Job:

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## how yes no 2

> 




if I2a1 were not Vandals, could I2a1 be spread by Phoenicians (their colonies are in yellow on map)? Any data about I2a in Levant?




> The high point of Phoenician culture and seapower is usually placed ca. 1200–800 BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

this is in fact, imediatelly after "sea peoples" took over the area around 1200 BC

and word Phoenicia starts with Phen which is alike to Ven which is key part (start of the word is most relevant part of tribal name as suffixes are due to languages spoken and tribes may change those) of tribal name Veneti who seems to have spread I2a* as only two samples of I2a* currently present in family tree dna database fall exactly in areas of Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti of Britanny.. 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

Phoenician homeland:
Akkā (Hebrew עַכּוֹ‎; Arabic عكّا‎), Arka, Arwad (Classical Aradus), Berut (Greek Βηρυτός; Latin Berytus;
Arabic بيروت; English Beirut), Botrys (modern Batroun), Dor (English Tantura; Arabic الطنطورة; Hebrew דוֹר), Gebal (Greek Byblos), Porphyreon, Safita, Sarepta (modern Sarafand), Sidon, Tripoli, Tyre, Ugarit, Zemar (Sumur)


list of Phoenician colonies:
Located in modern Algeria:
Cirta (modern Constantine), Malaca (modern Guelma), Igigili (modern Jijel), Hippo (modern Annaba), Icosium (modern Algiers), Iol (modern Cherchell), Tipasa (modern Tipaza)

Located in modern Cyprus: 
Kition (modern Larnaca), Dhali (modern Dali, Cyprus), Marion (modern Polis, Cyprus)

Located in modern Italy:
Genoa, Sardinia, Karalis (modern Cagliari), Nora, Olbia, Sulci[12], Tharros, Sicily, Zyz (modern Palermo), Lilybaeaum (modern Marsala), Motya, Solus (modern Solunto)

Located in modern Libya: Leptis Magna, Oea (modern Tripoli), Sabratha, The Mediterranean islands of Malat (modern Malta), Maleth (modern Mdina)[13], Għajn Qajjet[14], Tas-Silġ[15], Mtarfa[16], Qallilija[17], Ras il-Wardija in Gozo[15]

Located in modern Mauritania:
Cerne

Located in modern Morocco
Acra, Arambys (Mogador)[18], Caricus Murus, Gytta, Lixus (modern Larache), Tingis (modern Tangier)

Located in modern Spain
Abdera (modern Adra), Abyla (modern Ceuta), Rusadir (modern Melilla), Akra Leuke (modern Alicante), Gadir (modern Cádiz), Ibossim (modern Ibiza), Malaca (modern Málaga), Onoba (modern Huelva)
Qart Hadašt (Greek Νέα Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago Nova; Spanish Cartagena), Sexi (modern Almuñécar)

Located in modern Portugal
Baal Saphon or Baal Shamen, latter romanized as Balsa (modern Tavira, in the Algarve)[19][20]

Located in modern Tunisia
Hadrumetum (modern Susat), Hippo Diarrhytos (modern Bizerte), Qart Hadašt (Greek Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago; English Carthage), Thapsus (near modern Bekalta), Utica

Located in modern Turkey
Phoenicus (modern Finike)

Other colonies
Calpe (modern Gibraltar), Gunugu, Thenae, Tipassa, Sundar, Surya, Shobina, Tara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia


Let's check out Spain:
numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______J2(xJ2 f)
1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____5.2 
2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____13.7
3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____ 14.3
4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____11.0
5___Malaga	_______—______—_____7.7___3.8____ 7.7
6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____4.6
7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____3.3
8___Galicia________—______ —____--____--____--
9___Cantabria ____4.3______1.4___4.3____8.6___2.9 
10__Valencia_____9.7_______3.2___3.2____--___9.7 
11__Castile______14.3______19.0___--____--__--
12__Basques a____4.4______4.4____--
13__Catalans b____6.2______—_____--____--____--

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...4_v12_p855.pdf



Abdera (modern Adra)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adra,_Spain - closest to area 5
Abyla (modern Ceuta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta - north Africa - closest to area 3 
Rusadir (modern Melilla)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla - north Africa - closest 3
Akra Leuke (modern Alicante)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicante - closest area 10
Gadir (modern Cádiz)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A1diz,_Spain - area 3
Ibossim (modern Ibiza)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibiza,_Spain
Malaca (modern Málaga)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaga,_Spain - area 5
Onoba (modern Huelva)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huelva,_Spain - area 2
Qart Hadašt (Greek Νέα Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago Nova; Spanish Cartagena)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartagena,_Spain - area 10
Sexi (modern Almuñécar)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almu%C3%B1%C3%A9car,_Spain - closest to area 5

thus, areas 3 and 10 match spread of I2a1, while areas 2 and 5 does not...however, 2 and 5 are very near area 3 and there was lot of movements of people since time of Phoenicians...

in addition, by looking at spreads for areas 1-5 and 10 worth paying attention (and in fact better match) seems to be J2(xJ2f)... it is however not excluded that both haplogroups were spread by Phoenicians

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## Garrick

I2a2 is the most numerous haplogroup in Serbia.

R1a is much less prevalent in Serbia, and for example, Slovenia and Croatia (former SFR Yugoslavia republics) have much more R1a than Serbia.

In Serbia missing more data, especially by regions.

Men in Serbia who themselves are doing a genetic Y-DNA testing are mostly I2a2.

Haplogroup I2a2 is quite widespread in Romania and Moldavia.

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## how yes no 2

> Let's check out Spain:
> numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______J2(xJ2 f)
> 1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____5.2 
> 2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____13.7
> 3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____ 14.3
> 4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____11.0
> 5___Malaga	_______—______—_____7.7___3.8____ 7.7
> 6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____4.6
> 7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____3.3
> ...



J2 fits much better spread of Phoenicians...

if they have also spread I2a1, than there would be correlation between spread of J2 (xJ2f) and I2a1...however, there is no correlation as in some Phoenician colonies I2a1 is 0, while J2 is very high (13.7 and 7.7)... some of J2 could still have been carried by other settlers, but due to proximity of areas 1-5 I believe that it is of same origin in all of them...

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## Bogdan

hey, how yes no could you psot the exact percentages of all haplogroups found in serbia and montenegro from that study you posted as i cant read it... need to pay for it

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## Garrick

how yes no

You put new information. Great.

haplogroup____Serbia
I1_____________7.8%
I2b1___________1.67%
I2a2 __________38.5%

I ______________47,97%

In light the fact that I2a2 is 38,5% and I is almost 50% in Serbia, the image in introductory post is no more correct and should be changed.

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## how yes no 2

> hey, how yes no could you psot the exact percentages of all haplogroups found in serbia and montenegro from that study you posted as i cant read it... need to pay for it


I can access the article...

But if you do not trust data I have put here, you can use supplementary tables (those everyone can access) and calculate yourself percentage... it is fairly easy calculation (just counting number of samples belonging to certain haplogroup and dividing it with total number of samples)... pay attention that rows are not per sample but per exact value for markers, and thus in front of every row is a number showing how many samples with this exact set of markers are found... thus if number is 2 that row needs to be counted twice...

edit:
I just realized that data is not actually posted on this topic, and that you wanted to see it...

haplogrroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4% 
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

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## MichaelOH

> Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.
> 
> As yet, there is no SNP which defines 'Disles' but it is slightly closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than to the L161 positive, I2a2b-Isles.
> 
> I agree with you regarding a Danube Basin origin for the common ancestor of I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles. The 'Isles' mutation L161 probably occurred in northern Germany.


As I understand it, the sparsity of I2a2a-Disles in west continental Europe, together with TMRCA for 'Disles' being roughly 1500 years, leads to the conclusion that the origin of this type is in pre-Roman north Britain, from which it then spread outward back to the continent and to Ireland. It appears to have evolved from the I2a2a-Dinaric which arrived in Britain long after I2a2b arrived there.

We don't always have to assume that because one type appears to be intermediate it must therefore be the missing link between the earlier and later forms. :Angry:

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## Bogdan

> I can access the article...
> 
> But if you do not trust data I have put here, you can use supplementary tables (those everyone can access) and calculate yourself percentage... it is fairly easy calculation (just counting number of samples belonging to certain haplogroup and dividing it with total number of samples)... pay attention that rows are not per sample but per exact value for markers, and thus in front of every row is a number showing how many samples with this exact set of markers are found... thus if number is 2 that row needs to be counted twice...
> 
> edit:
> I just realized that data is not actually posted on this topic, and that you wanted to see it...
> 
> haplogrroup____Serbia____Montenegro
> I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
> ...


yup thats all i wanted thanks for posting that couldn't find it anywhere....

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## how yes no 2

> 


if I2a1 in Spain is there from before Germanic tribes settlement, let's try to see who brought it...



Carpetani from what I can see...(btw. notice Germani just south of them..)... 

again this fits tribal name into haplogroup I tribal name pattern
(Swedes (I1), Suebes(I1), Serbs (I2a2), Sarbans (I?), Sardinians (I2a1)...)

Iberia seems to have been settled same like America much later..as different base tribes made their colonies there (Helleni, Germani, Seurbi, Celti...)

in fact tribal name might be related to the name of Carpathian mountains and to the tribe Carpi that existed there...




> In late Roman documents, the Eastern Carpathian Mountains were referred to as Montes Sarmatici. The Western Carpathians were called Carpates. The name Carpates is first recorded in Ptolemy's second century book Geographia. Around 310 AD the Carpathians are mentioned as Montes Serrorum by the Flavius Galerius Valerius Licinianus Licinius.
> The name of the Carpi, a Dacians tribe may have been derived from the name of the Carpathian Mountains.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_mountains

Carpi are often considered to be Dacians but:




> Zosimus, a Byzantine chronicler writing around AD 500, records an invasion of Rome's Danubian provinces in 381 by a barbarian coalition of Huns, Scirii and *Karpodakai* ("Carpo-Dacians").[36] The latter term has been taken by many scholars as "proof" of the Carpi's Dacian ethnicity.[33] But this is the only literary evidence linking the Carpi name to that of the Dacians, and Zosimus is regarded by some modern scholars as an unreliable chronicler. One historian accords Zosimus "an unsurpassable claim to be regarded as the worst of all the extant Greek historians of the Roman Empire...it would be tedious to catalogue all the instances where this historian has falsely transcribed names, not to mention his confusion of events...".[37][38]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpi_(people)

----------


## Yorkie

> As I understand it, the sparsity of I2a2a-Disles in west continental Europe, together with TMRCA for 'Disles' being roughly 1500 years, leads to the conclusion that the origin of this type is in pre-Roman north Britain, from which it then spread outward back to the continent and to Ireland. It appears to have evolved from the I2a2a-Dinaric which arrived in Britain long after I2a2b arrived there.
> 
> We don't always have to assume that because one type appears to be intermediate it must therefore be the missing link between the earlier and later forms.


 :Angry:  I merely relayed Jean Manco's opinion that I2a2a-Disles was possibly brought to Britain via Yamnaya bands, and suggested a possible Danube Basin origin for I2a2a-Dinaric.

I am in close contact with the 'discoverer' of I2a2a-Disles, Ken Nordtvedt, and earlier this week he emailed me to suggest that I2a2a-Disles was probably founded in pre-Roman Britain, which I relayed on DNA Forums. Ken also told me that, as yet, there are no continental members of I2a2a-Disles. I never said that I2a2a-Disles was a 'missing link'. The fact is that I2a2a-Disles _is_ closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than it is to L161 I2a2b-Isles.

As for your scenario of I2a2a-Disles 'spreading back to the continent' and then going on to Ireland; certainly the clade is found in Ireland after Scotland in terms of numbers, but I see no evidence of it spreading back. There are no continental members as yet. So where is the evidence for that?

Incidentally, how can I2a2a-Disles have evolved from I2a2a-Dinaric 'which arrived in Britain long after I2a2b'? As Ken Nordtvedt has confirmed, I2a2a-Dinaric is absent in Britain...

I think that you are getting slightly mixed up re clades here. We don't really know how the man who founded I2a2a-Disles in pre-Roman Britain got there yet [aside from Jean Manco's theory]. Ken Nordtvedt's current view is from 'somewhere on the continent'. I2a2a-Disles is a tiny clade and we need a lot more data on it.

Incidentally, the TMRCA for I2a2a-Disles is 3,500 years _not_ 1,500 years.

----------


## Shetop

> I merely relayed Jean Manco's opinion that I2a2a-Disles was possibly brought to Britain via Yamnaya bands, and suggested a possible Danube Basin origin for I2a2a-Dinaric.


I think Jean Manco also accepted Ukrainian Polesia as the place of origin of I2a2a-Dinaric.

----------


## Yorkie

> I think Jean Manco also accepted Ukrainian Polesia as the place of origin of I2a2a-Dinaric.


Ken Nordtvedt has toyed with both the Danube Basin and Bohemia. I don't think he wants to say anything 'definate' yet. I have wondered about Ukraine too for Dinaric.

----------


## Shetop

It's a pity this text is not in English, but those really interested in the origin of I2a2a-Dinaric may find a way to translate it:
http://www.rus-obr.ru/idea/1148

----------


## how yes no 2

> It's a pity this text is not in English, but those really interested in the origin of I2a2a-Dinaric may find a way to translate it:
> http://www.rus-obr.ru/idea/1148


text is an interview with some archeologist about early Slavs...that archeologist mentions some cultures he identified with spread of Slavs by tracing backwards starting from location of early historical mention of Slavs... he has a theory that this lead to Polesia as original homeland of Slavs and he dates it to 4th century...

but origin of I2a2-Dinaric (and its spread probably) is significantly older than 4th century.... we do not even know whether I2a2-Dinaric is related to origin of Slavs or it was slavicized at some point later......

e.g. if you look at familytreedna I2a project, there is a line of I2a2-Dinaric South stretching from Switzerland to Denmark... and this is not coincidence as I2* spreads in same line...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

now, this is way too west to be due to historically known Slavic settlements...

----------


## Shetop

> text is about archeological sites and cultures traced back from early mention of Slavs... and this particular archeologist has atheory that this lead to Polesia in 4th century...
> but origin of I2a2 is significantly older than 4th century.... we do not even know whether I2a2-Dinaric is related to origin of Slavs or it was slavicized at some point later......


Well again the question I asked several times - did Slavs settle the Balkans or not?

If they did which were the regions they settled?
What do historical sources say - where did they come from?

There are only few points which should be connected, and the conclusion is immanent.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Well again the question I asked several times - did Slavs settle the Balkans or not?
> 
> If they did which were the regions they settled?
> What do historical sources say - where did they come from?
> 
> There are only few points which should be connected, and the conclusion is immanent.


well, then connect them aloud, so that I can tell you whether I can agree with that... and if not, why not...

I do not think it is as simple as you probably think it is..

----------


## Shetop

I don't have the time to write about all people with significant percentages I2a2a-Dinaric.

Serbs and Croats settled western Balkans in 7th century. Regions they settled coincide with those with the highest I2a2a- Dinaric.

For both of these tribes historians consider regions North of Carpathians (for Serbs Elbe river Basin) as the region where they came form. At that time this was exactly the area of the Prague Culture.

It is known that just a couple of centuries before Serbs and Croats did not inhabit Prague culture region, nor did Prague culture even exist.

So where did they come from?

Many archeologist (not just that one above) believe that Prague culture started spreading from Polesia. If we see that Polesia has significant frequencies of I2a2a-Dinaric today it is very plausible to think it is where it all started.

You are correct that the earliest archeological of Prague culture fall in the 4th century, and I2a2a Dinaric TMRCA is dated to several centuries before but there are no basis to make strong conclusions what was going on with those people before 3rd century.

----------


## how yes no 2

> I don't have the time to write about all people with significant percentages I2a2a-Dinaric.
> Serbs and Croats settled western Balkans in 7th century. Regions they settled coincide with those with the highest I2a2a- Dinaric.
> For both of these tribes historians consider regions North of Carpathians (for Serbs Elbe river Basin) as the region where they came form. At that time this was exactly the area of the Prague Culture.
> It is known that just a couple of centuries before Serbs and Croats did not inhabit Prague culture region, nor did Prague culture even exist.
> So where did they come from?
> Many archeologist (not just that one above) believe that Prague culture started spreading from Polesia. If we see that Polesia has significant frequencies of I2a2a-Dinaric today it is very plausible to think it is where it all started.
> You are correct that the earliest archeological of Prague culture fall in the 4th century, and I2a2a Dinaric TMRCA is dated to several centuries before but there are no basis to make strong conclusions what was going on with those people before 3rd century.


ok, I can almost buy that...

but what about I2a2-Dinaric South line from Switzerland to Denmark on family tree dna (coinciding with line for I2*)?

also, attempt to make clusters of populations did group Serbs and Croats with Romanians, central Ukraine, and east and west Hungary...
It did not cluster them with Czech, Poles, Russians, east and west Ukrainians who are separate not related cluster... wouldn't they be more likely to fit into proto-Slavic?


see the large figure at:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png

Slavs were though made of Sclaveni and Antes.... Antes were earlier mentioned as Sarmatian tribe... Antes carry name that is likely derived from Paphlagonia Eneti (same as Veneti tribe origins from Eneti).. Veneti match location of both I2a* samples found so far (one in Veneto, other in Brittany)
so, I think that Sarmatians / Antes might be the cluster with I2a2... 

however, I think that original carriers of I2a2 went under Serb-like names

Serbs and Croats came to Balkan from white Serbia and whute Croatia... neither was in Romania or Hungary....or near Danube in fact..

the cluster with Serbs and Croats does not include white Croatia (which was in area west Ukraine, south Poland, Slovakia) 

white(west) Serbia was likely in Bohemia, which is hypothesized by some to be birth place of I2a2-Dinaric, but I think that hotspot there is just because it was west Serbia, that is because it was for some time in not so distant past (before Czechs and after Boii and Suebi) settled by Serbs...

Romania and Hungary are on other hand explained by Seneca's mention of Serians who dare to cross frozen Danube and rule over Dacians... his Serians are same people with the Serians of Red sea (Sheba/Sabean), northwest China(Seres) and Caspian highlands (Serboi).. all those places share haplogroup I (likely I2, perhaps I2a2 imprint)

I am also curious how Pannonians fit into this, as according to Strabo in his time (1st century AD) they live in ex-Yugoslavia and not Illyrians... 
if their language is Slavic-alike (as I think it is), than big chunk of I2a2 may origin from them as well... and even though they are pre-Slav settlers, their Slavic-alike language would explain why extremely I2a2 areas (as Croats in Herzegovina) do speak Slavic language...

----------


## Shetop

> ok, I can almost buy that...
> 
> but what about I2a2-Dinaric South line from Switzerland to Denmark on family tree dna (coinciding with line for I2*)?


I think you are talking about Germany? Well as I wrote in my previous post I2a2 did temporarily settle Eastern Germany. So this Y-DNA spread to other parts of Germany also. But actually it represents very low frequency for Germany as a whole. Germans simply did take much more DNA tests than people from Balkans.




> also, attempt to make clusters of populations did group Serbs and Croats with Romanians, central Ukraine, and east and west Hungary...
> It did not cluster them with Czech, Poles, Russians, east and west Ukrainians who are separate not related cluster... wouldn't they be more likely to fit into proto-Slavic?


I'm not aware of any historical Y-DNA issue explained with autosomal analysis. All the answers we have so far, about R1b, I1, I2a2, J2 etc are provided by different kind of arguments. Mostly by taking into account the TMRCA of particular clades inside haaplogroups.

Autosomal analysis is just nice way to see how much are different nations related, but if you want to understand history I believe it is wrong way to go.

For example we are doing one analysis and we set Basques as Western Europeans. What does this mean? When did they come to Western Europe? If analysis show Welsh people are the closest to them (which of course we know in advance, because it is obvious) does this mean Basques came from Wales?

I see no sensible logic to use there. Anyone can grab any group of people and set them as reference. And those people could live in entirely different region just 2000 years earlier. And there goes the reference... I think it is ridiculous.

----------


## Yorkie

> I think you are talking about Germany? Well as I wrote in my previous post I2a2 did temporarily settle Eastern Germany. So this Y-DNA spread to other parts of Germany also. But actually it represents very low frequency for Germany as a whole. Germans simply did take much more DNA tests than people from Balkans.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any historical Y-DNA issue explained with autosomal analysis. All the answers we have so far, about R1b, I1, I2a2, J2 etc are provided by different kind of arguments. Mostly by taking into account the TMRCA of particular clades inside haaplogroups.
> 
> Autosomal analysis is just nice way to see how much are different nations related, but if you want to understand history I believe it is wrong way to go.
> 
> For example we are doing one analysis and we set Basques as Western Europeans. What does this mean? When did they come to Western Europe? If analysis show Welsh people are the closest to them (which of course we know in advance, because it is obvious) does this mean Basques came from Wales?
> ...


I don't think that I2a2a-Dinaric settled eastern Germany. What 'Dinaric' there is in Germany probably came from eastern European immigration.

The L161 I2a2b-Isles variety of I2a2, on the other hand, was probably founded in northern Germany and there is a definate, small presence in Germany today.

----------


## Shetop

> I don't think that I2a2a-Dinaric settled eastern Germany. What 'Dinaric' there is in Germany probably came from eastern European immigration.


That explanation has a problem because Dinaric-South is more frequent than Dinaric-North in Germany.

Also your point disregards explanation on - how did Dinaric-South travel from its homeland towards its final destination?

I offered this explanation several times.

----------


## MichaelOH

> I merely relayed Jean Manco's opinion that I2a2a-Disles was possibly brought to Britain via Yamnaya bands, and suggested a possible Danube Basin origin for I2a2a-Dinaric.
> 
> I am in close contact with the 'discoverer' of I2a2a-Disles, Ken Nordtvedt, and earlier this week he emailed me to suggest that I2a2a-Disles was probably founded in pre-Roman Britain, which I relayed on DNA Forums. Ken also told me that, as yet, there are no continental members of I2a2a-Disles. I never said that I2a2a-Disles was a 'missing link'. The fact is that I2a2a-Disles _is_ closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than it is to L161 I2a2b-Isles.
> 
> As for your scenario of I2a2a-Disles 'spreading back to the continent' and then going on to Ireland; certainly the clade is found in Ireland after Scotland in terms of numbers, but I see no evidence of it spreading back. There are no continental members as yet. So where is the evidence for that?
> 
> Incidentally, how can I2a2a-Disles have evolved from I2a2a-Dinaric 'which arrived in Britain long after I2a2b'? As Ken Nordtvedt has confirmed, I2a2a-Dinaric is absent in Britain...
> 
> I think that you are getting slightly mixed up re clades here. We don't really know how the man who founded I2a2a-Disles in pre-Roman Britain got there yet [aside from Jean Manco's theory]. Ken Nordtvedt's current view is from 'somewhere on the continent'. I2a2a-Disles is a tiny clade and we need a lot more data on it.
> ...


You are right about MRCA. The time of coalescence for I2a2 Disles is circa 500 AD. I agree that this coalescence probably took place in Britain.

Because all living I2a2 Disles males have a MRCA at 1,500 BC plus or minus, does not I2a2 Disles this common ancestor make. There could have been several I2a2 Dinaric types whose descendants were evolving into I2a2 Disles at the same time, so that the date of coalescence when all of these descendants stabilized as I2a2 Disles, presumably in GB, is significantly later than TMRCA.

----------


## Yorkie

> You are right about MRCA. The time of coalescence for I2a2 Disles is circa 500 AD. I agree that this coalescence probably took place in Britain.
> 
> Because all living I2a2 Disles males have a MRCA at 1,500 BC plus or minus, does not I2a2 Disles this common ancestor make. There could have been several I2a2 Dinaric types whose descendants were evolving into I2a2 Disles at the same time, so that the date of coalescence when all of these descendants stabilized as I2a2 Disles, presumably in GB, is significantly later than TMRCA.


I'm glad you agree, and I'm also glad that we are not still growling at each other  :Good Job: . Regarding I2a2a-Dinaric 'types'- well, the only ones I know of are 'Dinaric-North' and 'Dinaric-South'. There are some Croatian and Russian trends re certain STR markers but they don't constitute extra types according to Ken [Nordtvedt]. I hope that further data emerges soon so that we can get a better picture of Disles.

The fact remains though that I2a2a-Dinaric [and anything like it] is absent in Britain. The branchlines that linked the eastern I2a2a-Dinaric and the north-western I2a2b-Isles went their own way 13,000 years ago.

----------


## how yes no 2

> I think you are talking about Germany? Well as I wrote in my previous post I2a2 did temporarily settle Eastern Germany. So this Y-DNA spread to other parts of Germany also. But actually it represents very low frequency for Germany as a whole. Germans simply did take much more DNA tests than people from Balkans.


exactly, they did do much more tests...

so why is there one I2a2 Dinaric south in east Germany and 5 all in line cutting west-central Germany on line north south from Denmark to Swiss? 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

how come this coincides with same line for I2* spread?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

I think that Germanic Suebi might have had some I2a2-Dinaric south.... tribal splits are never clear cut...

btw. Denmark, Swiss, Serbia...what is common for those lands?
symbol of white cross on red background...

 

 

 

as tribal name, coat of arms might speak about possible genetic history of Serbs

originaly white cross (cross is an ancient symbol that was wide used much before Christianity) on red background, as in Denmark and Swiss, 

than white eagle as in Poland,



than eagle becomes double headed as the one of Byzantium



and letters appear on the shield as the ones on the flag of the Palaiologos dynasty of Byzantine Empire..



peoples adopt symbols by being part of larger tribal unions (e.g. in coats of arms of counties in Slovakia, Czech republic and south Poland there are lot of red white chessboard shields that are likely due to areas being part of white Croatia...) 
or by being impressed (e.g. Russians got current flag due to tsar Peter the Great, who spent part of his life living incognito in Netherlands, and was impressed by Dutch flag...later most Slavic countries as being impressed by success of Russia followed the trend and have chosen blue, red and white colors for their flags... )




> I'm not aware of any historical Y-DNA issue explained with autosomal analysis. All the answers we have so far, about R1b, I1, I2a2, J2 etc are provided by different kind of arguments. Mostly by taking into account the TMRCA of particular clades inside haaplogroups.


who said this is about autosomal analysis?




> Roewer et al. had previously discovered structure in European Y-chromosomes with Y-STRs. The new study, five years later, uses a huge database of population samples. While Y-SNPs defining haplogroups are safer due to the avoidance of homoplasy, which can be a problem with a few Y-STR markers, I believe that most major haplogroups can be distinguished even with few Y-STRs, so the paper's results are valid.
> 
> From the paper:
> In a total of 33,010 males we identified 4176 different haplotypes, 2192 were unique, and 56 corresponded to 42% of the Y chromosomes


from link in previous quote:




> A very important new paper uses short tandem repeat (STR) markers on the human Y-chromosome over a set of 12,700 European individuals. STRs are fast mutating, making them unsuitable for the inference of phylogeny, but conversely *suitable for detecting more recent population movements*.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/01...in-europe.html

----------


## Shetop

> who said this is about autosomal DNA?


Well I never paid attention on details of such studies (similar to autosomal  :Rolleyes: ).
Ok, I understand there is a difference.

Are there any conclusions made by authors that were interesting to you?

----------


## how yes no 2

> Well I never paid attention on details of such studies (similar to autosomal ).
> Ok, I understand there is a difference.
> Are there any conclusions made by authors that were interesting to you?






> Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings:
> central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary* (cluster 148).
> 
> *This cluster was mapped with the second highest frequency in the rest of Hungary and in the southern and western neighboring areas (data not shown).






> Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula:
> (1)Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and EasternHungary, and Central
> Ukraine: cluster18;
> (2)continental Greece, Bulgaria,and Macedonia: cluster2
> 
> Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and west Balkan(_how yes no: looking at colors - did they mean east Balkans?_)
> *Cluster 13 was registered as second in frequency in the region of Anatolia and
> the border region of Latvia, Belarus,and the Russian Federation(data not shown).


cluster 6 WesternEurope
cluster 17 EasternEurope:
cluster 3 Northwestern Africa
cluster 4 Western Fenno-Scandinavia: 
cluster 9 Finland and the Baltic
cluster 11 Caucasus

in diagram with tree showing relation between clusters
A: Cluster 18 (Serb/Croat/Romania/central Ukraine/east and west Hungary) is closest to cluster 10 (?)
B: cluster 13 (Albanians) and cluster 5 (central Anatolia)
C: A and B are cluster

D cluster 3 (northwest Africa) and 16 (?)
E cluster D and 8 (?)

F: C and E are cluster

G: 7 (Egypt, Syria?) and 12 (?)
H: 15 and 2 (Greece, Bulgaria and Macedonia)

I: G and H

J: I and F

----------


## how yes no 2

> exactly, they did do much more tests...
> 
> so why is there one I2a2 Dinaric south in east Germany and 5 all in line cutting west-central Germany on line north south from Denmark to Swiss? 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
> 
> how come this coincides with same line for I2* spread?
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
> 
> I think that Germanic Suebi might have had some I2a2-Dinaric south.... tribal splits are never clear cut...


actually, besides Suebi, there can be other reasons for this spread:

Cimbry who lived in Denmark and disappeared from history...
Alans who apparently also had settlement in Germany
http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...tity_6193.html

interestingly, in Caspian highlands they live next to Serboi, in Germany and Iberia next to Suebi

----------


## Shetop

> so why is there one I2a2 Dinaric south in east Germany and 5 all in line cutting west-central Germany on line north south from Denmark to Swiss?


I don't believe there is more I2a2a-Dinaric in Central than in East Germany. Check any I2a2a-Dinaric frequency map.

Current distribution on ftdna project does not show the real situation.

----------


## how yes no 2

> I don't believe there is more I2a2a-Dinaric in Central than in East Germany. Check any I2a2a-Dinaric frequency map.
> Current distribution on ftdna project does not show the real situation.


perhaps...
do you know any other maps that differentiate Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North?
what other I2a2-Dinaric maps are there that you recommend?

----------


## Shetop

I believe ftdna project is not reliable when using it to compare I2a2a-Dinaric in East and Central Germany due to unknown number of people which were tested inside these particular regions. Also it is known that Western Germany is more densely populated than the Eastern. And information we are searching for is the *frequency* so we could get tricked.

But when trying to use the same ftdna project to conclude if there is more Dinaric-North or Dinaric-South in Germany as a whole, sample size gets a bit bigger, there are no other references to compare with (like in the case above), so I believe error becomes smaller.

I'm not aware of any other map which could be used for this purpose. This one is for all I2a2 and I believe you've seen it already:

----------


## how yes no 2

> ...
> 
> ....
> and letters appear on the shield as the ones on the flag of the Palaiologos dynasty of Byzantine Empire..


actually, the letters might have travelled other way around...from Serb people to Palaiologos dinasty, as Palaiologos origin from Macedonia and first known member of that family is mentioned only in 1081 as a commander in army in battle of Dyrrhachium against Normans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologos

indeed in old Serbia this was the symbol of Serbia nobles from Macedonia e.g. house of Mrnjavcevic, while main Serbia rulers - dinasty of Nemanjic had 2 headed white eagle on red shield (white eagle on red shield is often repeated symbol in coats of arms in Poland)..

Nemanjic dinasty coat of arms
 

Mrnjavcevic dinasty coat of arms


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers

Volyn and Rivne regions, situated in northwest Ukraine in wider area of elevated I2a2, have as coats of arms also red shield with white cross



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_Oblast



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivne_Oblast

and just north of those 2 areas, in Poland on border with Belorusia is town Terespol with following coat of arms


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terespol


merging this coat of arms with more southern ones from Volyn would easily give serbian coat of arms

and this development we can somewhat trace in Poland's heraldics (subsequently coats of arms of Ostoja (galery 2), Cholewa(3), Przegonia(4), Pielesz(4),Wloszek (8), Druck(5), Tarnawa (6)):



http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herby_szlach.html

today, in Serbia we see the symbol as a letter S (paleologoi had letter B) in meaning "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava" (only agreement/cohesion save Serb) ('S' being in Cyrillic written as 'C')

however, originally it could have been moon or horse shoe

http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herby_tab03.html

----------


## how yes no 2

but I am interested whether same heraldics can be found among people in Ukraine who actually cluster with Serbs and Croats, as this would be traceable source point 

looking at: 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png

in central Ukraine is such a region that could be source of the cluster

Vinnytsia Oblast (Vinnytsia region)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast


interesting is that name Vinnytsia might be derived from Veneti... which indicates that I might have been right relating I2a2 with Veneti
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26066

in this region we find white cross on red shield but with 'c' symbol on top of cross...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast
local variants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bershad


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia

so, cross may origin from 2 swords, and 'c' (Cyrillic letter 's') from "sidro" (anchor)

as we can see, when it is not drawn as anchor it is depicted as white 'c' in blue square, which is in same time:
1) visual representation of anchor in the sea
2) textual representation of anchor as 'c' is in same time first letter of word representing anchor - "sidro" ('сидро' in Cyrillic) in Serbian and probably in other Slavic languages as well...

only problem is that Cyrillic alphabet was not supposed to exist at that time... which is strange as Sloveni (self-identification of Slavs) means people with alphabet letters (Slovo = letter of alphabet), while Nemci (Slavic word for Germans) is derived from 'not able to speak'

----------


## Garrick

how yes no

Very interesting connections and observations.

What is the mysterious and hard to fathom in the darkness of the past is the relationship between I2 and R1a. 

I and R are completely different clans, but a lot of I2 and R1a have the same culture and language.

Maybe it is because I2 and R1a lived in the Balkan more than ten millenia ago, if it is true that Balkan R1a is 11kya ago (I clan are the first on Balkan, 25 kya ago).

----------


## Garrick

how yes no
It is fundamentally question about *old I language*.

I gives five hypotheses:

1) the men from the Vinca civilization belonged *R1a*

2) but if it is no true then Vincans belonged to a branch *I*.

3) it is possible that Vincans were carriers *I* and *R1a*

4) if Vincans were carriers *I* haplogroup, or mixed *I* and *R1a* haplogroup, that claim from the roots may change our knowledge of the Slavic language and culture

5) if 2) or 3) is true members of Clan *R1a* (who came from central Asia to Balkan) they have adopted an older culture and language *I* people.

It is a bold claim that *R1a* came from Asia and they have received from *I Clans* (*old Serb*?) *language and culture* but this is just one possible scenario that explains the series of contradictions that exist between Old Europeans *I* and Indo Europeans *R1a* and between *Slavs* *R1a* and some other *Asian R1a*.

----------


## DejaVu

*This maybe have not much to do with Haplogroup I2a but with the colours red and white on flags and heraldic designs.* 


*“The Viking long boat called Drakur flew the red and white striped flag, and even that the motif can be traced further back to the Tribe of Dan.”*


*Holy Roman Empire 962–1806*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
The *Holy Roman Empire* (HRE; German: _Heiliges Römisches Reich (HRR)_, Latin: _Imperium Romanum Sacrum (IRS)_, Italian: _Sacro Romano Impero (SRI)_) was a realm that existed for about a millennium in Central Europe, ruled by a Holy Roman Emperor. Its character changed during the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, when the power of the emperor gradually weakened in favour of the princes, especially under Habsburg rule. In its last centuries, its character became quite close to a loose union of territories.
In the empire's later years, its faltering cohesion, the fact that the Holy Roman Empire was populated primarily by Germans despite its official "Roman" title, and its claims to divinity and ancient Rome all became matters of ridicule. As the French Enlightment writer Voltaire quipped, "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire".


*History*

Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Romans in 800 and was then the forerunner of the Holy Roman Emperor, largely because he had inaugurated the tradition of imperial coronation by the Pope of the Catholic Church. This continued as a significant institution in the Holy Roman Empire until the 16th century. Charlemagne's policy of "renovatio Romanorum imperii" (reviving the Roman Empire) remained at least in theory as the official position of the Empire until its end in 1806.

Flag of the Holy Roman Empire (1200-1350).


Holy Roman Empire ca.1600.




*LOST ISRAELITE IDENTITY. The Hebrew Ancestry of Celtic Races*
http://www.britam.org/Identity.html
The book begins by showing how the exiled Israelites became identified with the Cimmerians, Scythians, and Goths. The Cimmerians in an Assyrian inscription were referred to as "Amurru" meaning in effect at that time as ISRAELITES! The different exiled Israelite groups eventually migrated in stages to the north and west. The emphasis in “Lost Israelite Identity” is on the Cimmerians and the Celtic peoples many of whom were of Israelite-Cimmerian derivation.

The second part of “Lost Israelite Identity” consists of historical flashbacks in time followed by further analysis of the Assyrian-directed exile. Historical phenomena from before the Exile have significance concerning the ultimate destiny of the Exiles and add depth to the rest of the evidence adduced in “Lost Israelite Identity”. The ancient Hebrew-Israelites were descended from Shem from whom came the Sumerians in Mesopotamia, founders of early civilisation. Abraham the first Hebrew was a wandering prince whose descendants went down into Egypt where they became identified with the "Hycsos" shepherd-kings. After being enslaved they were freed from Egypt and journeyed to Canaan which they conquered gaining dominance over most of the Middle East. They established settlements in North Syria and Cyprus as well as in "Palestine" proper. The Hebrews influenced Greek and Egyptian history and are identifiable with the "Sea-Peoples". Some Israelite Tribes participated in Phoenician maritime activity and contacts with the west were established at an early date. In the end Northern Israel was conquered. “Lost Israelite Identity” relates how the Assyrians exiled most of the Israelites to the north where they became identifiable with the Cimmerians and company. In addition, however, to sending Israelite exiles northward overland, the Assyrians also sent some of the exiles overseas directly by ship. They took control of the Phoenician sea-faring set-up and through its agency transported Israelites directly to the west and re-settled them in Spain and elsewhere. In the course of time the exiles in Spain linked up with their Hebrew brethren in the Cimmerian-Celtic forces that advanced overland from the Middle East. From Spain they moved out into Gaul and the British Isles. Evidence for most of the above is mainly derived from Biblical, archaeological, and written sources, all of which are authoratitively referenced.

The third part of “Lost Israelite Identity” shows how Celtic (mainly Irish) legends confirm all of the account given above sometimes going into precise detail and often imparting information (since confirmed by archaeology etc.) that proves the truth of their tradition. The Celts preserved names of Hebrew Tribes and places. In the past, from pre-Christian times, they practiced aspects of the Mosaic Law and in Scotland continued to do so until fairly recently.

*Israelites - 12 Tribes of Israel*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

*The origins of the Israelites*
The archaeological record indicates that the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah emerged in the Early Iron Age from the Canaanite city-state culture of the Late Bronze Age, at the same time and in the same circumstances as the neighbouring states of Edom, Moab, Aram, and the Philistinian and Phoenician city-states. Throughout this formative period, (1200–1000 BCE), the highlands lack any sign of centralised authority; religiously, they lack any sign of temples, shrines, or centralised worship in general (although cult-objects associated with the Canaanite god El have been found); the pottery remains strongly in the local Late Bronze tradition; and the alphabet is early-Canaanite. The most commonly appealed to ethnic marker distinguishing Israelite villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker remains a matter of dispute. Nevertheless, it is widely recognized that identification of the Israelites as a distinctive group is possible by means of archaeological evidence such as foodways, architecture, cultic practices, and material culture such as ceramics and large water _pithoi_.
The population of the central highlands during this same period was extremely sparse at the beginning, with some 25 villages and a population of about 12,000; by 1000 BCE the number of villages had increased to 300 and the population to 55,000.
By c.850 BCE inscriptions such as the Tel Dan stele and the Mesha stele indicate that a regionally important kingdom referred to by its neighbours as the House of Omri, after the ruling dynasty, and sometimes Samaria, after its capital, had emerged in the territory of the central highlands; there is no record of what this kingdom's own name for itself might have been, although in one Assyrian record the king is called "Ahab the Israelite." Records relating to Israel, in the sense of this northern kingdom, continue down to its destruction by the Assyrians towards the end of the 8th century.
The earliest probable mention of the southern kingdom is on the Tel Dan stele (c.850 BCE), where, according to the scholarly consensus, the House of David is mentioned alongside the House of Omri together with the mention of the death of a king whose reconstructed name can be equated with the name of a king mentioned in the bible. There is no further archaeological evidence until Babylonian records refer to it (as Yehud, the Aramaic equivalent of Judah) at the very end of the 7th century. The archaeological record also indicates that Jerusalem, from being no more than a small village, underwent a period of sudden and substantial growth in the period immediately following the destruction of Israel, c.722 BCE.




Three major theories on how the group of people became to be known as the Israelites have been proposed:Rapid ConquestGradual InfiltrationRevolting PeasantsEvidence for these theories comes from biblical as well as extrabiblical sources. However, none of the theories can completely account for all the data. The rapid conquest model was put forth by William Albright and George E. Wright in an effort to combine archeological evidence with biblical narrative. In general, this model follows the Joshua 1-12 story with the defining characteristic of unified tribes triumphing in military conquest. However, modern archeology and scholarship, has subsequently criticized this theory, especially since the Judges account show independent tribal action rather than a unified national identity.
In response to what is found in Judges, Albrecht Alt and Martin Noth advanced the gradual infiltration theory of Israelite emergence. They propose that instead of a rapid military conquest, a gradual infiltration of pastoral nomads from settled highlands eventually come to conflict with coastal areas. Eventually the individual tribes “unify” under charismatic leadership (such as Gideon or Deborah; Judges 4-6) and shared heritage and religious practice. George E. Mendenhall wrote that while plausible, the transformation of the nomadic existence to one of sedentary nature had nothing to do with the tribes of Israel.
Alternatively, as proposed by Mendenhall and defended by Norman K Gottwald, a peasant class revolted against the upper class upon hearing stories of similarly oppressed people who came out of Egypt. He suggests that the impetus for joining into a unified group of people was not only for egalitarian purposes but also for some measure of peace. Extrabiblical evidence of the politically unstable environment is highlighted by the Amarna letters, which show city-states constantly warring with each other.




*The tribe of Dan*

http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm
When the 12 tribes of Israel actually took possession of the promised land, the tribe of Dan was allotted its tribal inheritance in the South Western area of that land.. Dan was situated west-Northwest of Judah; Dan's territory extended westward to the Mediterranean Sea, and included the busy port of Joppa, next to modern Tel-Aviv (Joshua 19:40-48).
Now the Danites migrated Northwards to Laish, and called the city Dan, after their father, see Judges 18. The northern city Laish, now called Dan, by the tribe of Dan, was about thirty miles inland from the ancient busy port of Tyre. Thus the ancient Danites must of had frequent contacts with the people of Tyre, which was in fact occupied by their brethren the tribe of Asher, see Joshua 19:29. So since their Israelite brothers occupied the land of Tyre, they had access to Tyre at anytime. These people of Tyre were a people of sea trade and navigation, see Ezekiel 27. These people built Tyre and Sidon on the Lebanese coast.
In the 1200's B.C., before Dan went to Laish, in a song commemorating a great Israelite victory, the Judge Deborah lamented that during the battle, the "men of Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan [River], and [asked] why DAN REMAINED IN SHIPS?" (Judges 5:17). The Danites were so preoccupied with the Sea and sea trade that they chose to remain in their ships than help their brethren. So even before the time they went to Laish, the Danites were already engaged in sea-faring activities.
J.C. Gawler quotes from the Chronicles of Ireland and says: "Again (p.123), 'The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Baraks victory, when we are told Dan had ships...The early connection with Greece, Phoenician and Egypt is constantly alluded throughout the Chronicles [of Ireland] and records of the Irish Dannans" (Dan Pioneer of Israel, pp.30-31, emphasis added). After the first batch of Dannans left for Ireland, the remaining Danites migrated North 30 miles away from Tyre. These Danites that migrated North to Laish are the 3RD BATCH OF DANAANS THAT WENT TO IRELAND. These Danites worshipped Idol gods at that time, and brought them to Ireland, and Gawler points out, "The Psalter at Cashel says that the Tower of Tara [In Ireland] was built for the preservation of the fire of Baal, and was called Bel Theine...and that the mark of Phoenicia and Israel [was] Baal worship" (ibid., p.31).
What route did the first batch of Danaans take? Irish Historian Thomas Moore says that one of the earliest resident peoples of Ireland-the Firbolgs-were dispossessed by the Tuatha de Danaans, "who after sojourning for some time in Greece...proceeded thence to Denmark and Norway" (History of Ireland, vol.1, p.59) Then the Danaans proceeded to Ireland. So we see a time span of about 85 years, after Deborah, the judge of Israel uttered those words about Dan in ships!
The word "Tuatha" simply means "tribe"-"Tuatha...Irish history...A 'Tribe' or 'people' in Ireland"' (New English Dictionary on Historical principles, vol.10, pt 1, p.441). The word Dan means Judge in the Hebrew. "Dan [Heb "Judge"] shall Judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel" (Gen 49:16). "*It is certainly no coincidence that the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means Judge..."*' (America and Britain in Prophecy, Raymond McNair, p.25, emphasis theirs).
Another Irish Historian Geoffrey Keating mentions the SECOND BATCH of Danites of Judges 18, who were the THIRD BATCH OF DANAANS that went to Ireland AFTER THE MILESIANS, and he says: "...the Danaans were a people of great learning and wealth; they left Greece after a battle with the ASSYRIANS and went to Ireland; and also to Denmark, and called it 'DAN-mares,' Dans' country" (History of Ireland, vol.1, pp.195, 199, emphasis added). When the Assyrians attacked in the 8th century, the Danites of the promised land, left and joined their brothers in Ireland, who already settled there in different waves of immigration. They left to get away from the battle with Assyria.
The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us that the ancestor of the Danaans was "According to late Danish tradition...Juteland [mainland Denmark] was acquired by DAN, THE ANCESTOR OF THE DANES FROM WHERE THEIR NAME DERIVES (under article 'Denmark,' vol.8, 11th edition, emphasis added). Like the Danites of old, they named Denmark after their father Dan.

*Testimony of Josephus, the Jewish Historian*
Jewish Historian Josephus shows that the Lacedemonian (Spartans of Greece) were actually Danites, and therefore closely related to the Jews. Josephus relates an incredible letter from Sparta to Judah: "
"Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation . . . to the ephori and senate and the people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting:
"When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest . . . we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of ONE STOCK, and are derived from the KINDRED OF ABRAHAM...concerning the KINDRED THAT WAS BETWEEN US AND YOU, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle . . . because we were well satisfied about it from the SACRED WRITINGS, yet did not we think fit, first to begin the claim of this RELATION TO YOU, the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed, and when we, upon holy and festival days offer sacrifices to God, we pray to Him for your preservation and victory . . . . You will, therefore, do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires...*This letter is foursquare: and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon [snake or serpent] in its claws"* (*Antiquities of the Jews*, bk 12 chapter 4 sec 10; XIII, 5, 8, emphasis added).

The Lacedemonians received the Jewish ambassadors carrying the letter kindly and made a decree of friendship and mutual assistance with the Jews, and then sent the letter to their Lacedemonian kinsmen. 
In *Ancient Mythology*, Bryant relates that Stephanus Byzantium shows that Alexander Polyhistor and Claudius Jolaus also speak of a direct relationship or kindship between the Spartan Greeks and the people of Judaea (vol.5, p.51-52, 60). 

*Dan -- A Serpent's Trail*
Jacob prophesied that Dan would be a "Serpent by the way, an adder by the path," (Gen 9:16-17) meaning that he would leave a trail wherever he would go. In the Bible we have seen evidence of this naming everything after their father "Dan," see Joshua 19:47; Judges 18:12, 27-29. When the Danites migrated to Ireland, they left a trail of names throughout Europe. The city of Troy was located at the mouth of the Bosporus DarDANelles. From their they migrated into Europe and left names all over and into DANmark and Norway.
In Hebrew there are no vowels, so the name Dan is written DN, or its Hebrew equivalent. Thus words like Dan, Din, Don, Dun, Den, or Dn, correspond to the name of Dan.
Just west of the Black Sea, ancient geographers designated a region by the name of Moesia, which means the land of the "Moses-ites." These people revered a person whom they called Zal-moxis. "Zal" significes "chief," so this person, "chief Moxis" or "leader Moxis" was actually "chier MOSES," the man of God who led Israel to the promised land, and whom these people remembered as their original leader. The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON.

Professor Totten declares: 
"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud.18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to TRACE these wanderers LIKE A TRAIL. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the THOUSAND OTHER Dans and Dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, *Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright*, p.263-64).
Denmark, the name of the modern country in Europe north of Germany, means, literally, "Dan's mark." It's people are called "Danes." In fact, because at one time Denmark ruled all the surrounding region, the whole region took its name from them the ScanDINavian peninsula! Clearly, here are remnants of the people of DAN, who migrated westward overland from the Caucasus to their present location in northern Europe!
However, other Danites, who dwelt or abode in ships, and who associated themselves with the sea peoples of Tyre and Sidon, fled westward through the Mediterranean when northern Israel fell. Early Danites fled Egypt migrated through SarDINia, and left their trail along the sea-coasts of the Mediterranean. Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan." The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus. 
In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance. Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS." Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy." It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob! It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

*The Tribe of Dan and peoples descended from Dan* 

*http://www.britam.org/dan.html*
*THE SYMBOLS OF DAN STILL USED TODAY!*
Danes from the Israelite Tribe of Dan invaded Denmark at about the same time as the Naphtali moved in large numbers into Norway. The Tribe of Dan was represented by a snake or by a lion. Other accepted symbols of Dan were a pair of scales, an eagle, and a dragon. Many members of Dan settled in Denmark, in Ireland, in Wales, England, and the U.S.A. where 40-50 million people have Irish ancestry. The symbol of a snake was once worshipped in Ireland; a lion represents Denmark and England, Wales has a dragon on its flag, and the U.S.A. has an eagle.
Tribal Identification: Dan 

Additional Notes pertinent to the identification of Dan will be found in the sections concerning Reuben, Judah, Naphtali, and Gad.
<<And the sons of Dan; Hushim>> Genesis 46; 23. "Hushim" was also known as "Shuham".
<<These are the sons of Dan after their families: of Shuham, the family of the Shuhami. These are the families of Dan after their families>> Numbers 26; 42.

*DAN WITH GAD AND NAPHTALI*
Groups derived from Dan were historically somehow linked with the Gothic forces that descended mainly from Gad. Danites were also found together with the Nephtalites of Naphtali .
"HUSHIM" OR SHUHAM: THE SON OF DAN
The Son of DAN, "Hushim" (Genesis 46;23) was also called Shuham (Numbers 26;42). Hesse in north Germany represented Hushim. Shuham may be found in the "Suehani" who, according to Jordanes, were in Sweden like the Danes themselves are considered to have been. It is noticeable that quite often the Tribes of Naphtali and Dan were interwoven and that both appear to have been present in the Scythian Naphtalite group.

*PEOPLES OF DAN*

DAN: Don, Danaster, Danaper, Danube (all rivers associated with the 
Scyths).
Dangalai (Iran),
Danava (a Scythian Tribe),
Dana (from Lebanon-Israel to Ireland).
Don (Wales,)
Damnones (Scythia, Scotland, south-west Britain, also known as "Dannonia"
Dani (Danes of Denmark).

SHUCHAM (Suham) = Suehan (Sweden), Suoumi (Finland, also associated with Simeon).

HUSHAM (Hussem) = Hesse (Franks in Germany).

*IRELAND (EIRE):*
Ireland has a harp on its Coat of Arms. The harp is traditionally associated with King David of Judah and Israel.


*The History of the Red Haired Race and the Tribe of Dann*
*http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedrace.html*

*TUATHA DE DANAAN*
According to the mythic tales the Tuatha de' Danann arrived in western Ireland (near 
modern Connacht) by air. They divided into two social classes: "gods" as teachers of 
medicine, smithing, communication or druidry, and "non-gods" as farmers or shepherds. 
Although no one knows for certain what the Tuatha looked like, descriptions, such as of 
their female war-leader Eriu, indicate tall attractive people with pale skin, high foreheads, long red hair and large blue eyes.
“They were the boldest mariners, the greatest colonizers, who could boast of a form of 
government approaching to constitutionalism, who of all nations of the time stood highest 
in practical arts and sciences and into whose lap there flowed an unceasing stream of the 
world´s greatest riches, until the day came when they began to care for nothing else, 
and the enjoyment of material comforts and luxuries took the place of the thirst for 
knowledge.”
Canon George Rawlinson on_ The Phoenicians_

*http://www.burlingtonnews.net/dann.html*
A Babylonian tablet located in the British Museum (No 74329), circa 2000 B.C. contains the Sumerian record of the Line of Cain. Copied by A.R. Millard and translated by W.G. Lambert (Kadmos, vol. VI), it speaks of the beginnings of a group of people who were *ploughmen*,(agriculturists) which corresponds to the biblical *"tiller of the land."*
They were called *AMAKANDU* - And, the Mesopotamian chief of these people was *KA'IN*
"Ka'in built in Dunnu a city with twin towers and gave himself lordship over it. "
"....After the death (or murder) of Ka'in, "he was laid to rest in the city of Dunnu, which he loved."
"....We also find among traditional Assyrian eponyms of royal names the combination Ashur-bel-Ka'ini ("Ashur, lord of the Ka'inites"). The Assyrian scribes paralleled this name with the Sumerian ASHUR-EN.DUNI ("Ashur is lord of Duni"), implying that the Ka'ini ("The people of Kain") and the Duni ("The people of Dun") were one and the same; and thus reaffirming the biblical Cain and Land of Nun or Dun." Z. Sitchen

*The Creation of the Shepherd Kings*

The notion of the serpent as evil came into our consciousness during the early Christian era. Prior to this, the biblical serpent 
was often connected with godly knowlege, healing and immortality. The Hebrew word for the creature who tempted Eve is 
"nahash" which literally means "he who solves secrets."
The Anunnaki came to earth for the purpose of colonization and mining. Through their advanced knowledge of genetics, they 
created a slave race. To watch over their 'herd' of slaves, they created a hybrid group of 'shepherd kings'. These 'hybrids' 
enjoyed the protection of the gods in exchange for their services and loyalty. Being at least 75 per cent Anunnaki, Caine was the first in the Shepherd Kingship line. The line of Cain went on to produce what we know today as the 'blue blood' lineage, always interbreeding within the Anunnaki families in order to maintain the purity of the hybrid blood status.

The serpent bloodline interbred with Nordics, who carried the blonde and blue eyed traits. These Nordic features are for some reason very desirable to the Serpent cultures and as legend goes ' to be descended from Noah' is a code for the illumanati bloodlines.

The Tyrrhenians were an offshoot of the Atlanteans, of whom the Tyrrhenian Sea was named. They eventually split , branching off to become the Etruscans and the Carians,who are more commonly known as the Phoenicians. The Eus-Cara became the Basques of Spain and the Taurkes became the Tauraks who settled North Africa bringing with them the Atlantean knowlede.
The Taureg people of North Africa have allowed some visitors to see their ancient cavern systems in the Ahaggar Mountains where they have murals of their Atlantean ancestors holding snakes and swords with tridents on the blades. The Tuaregs also perform a dance in honour of the Atlantean fire god, Voltan or Votan, Colonizing Greece were the Pelasgians who worshipped a serpent goddess called Athene or Neith who was depicted as a serpent or goddess covered by snakes. They first landed on the Pelopnnese in Greece and settled in Arcadia. It was the "Athenians" who went to war with their cousin Atlanteans prior to the 'deluge'.

The Tibetan *Dzyan* documents a system of underground tunnels the ancient Atlanteans built that encircled the entire planet. 
The western tunnel network had its beginning under the Atacama Desert in Chile running in the direction of Tiahuanaco - Cuzco - Mount Shasta - Grand Tetons, under the American mainland and the Atlantic ocean towards the Atlas mountain range in western Africa and then under Ahaggar/Tibesti mountain ranges towards their final station at the Giza pyramids. One important center was under the Mato Grosso region in Brazil, where Agartha had a strong connection with the Atlantean cities on the surface. The Himalayan network was of extraordinary importance. Here an underground civillization was developed as a mirror of an Atlantean colony that existed on the surface in the area of contemporary Gobi desert. Of course then it was no desert, but a subtropical paradise. The Himalayan network had its souce under the Gobi Desert where it expanded under the Takla Makan Desert and then onwards under the Pamirs, Altai, Karakorum, Baltistan, Kunluns and the Chang Tang plateau towards the Himalayas.

A group of Dananns (Dann) settled in Asia Minor (now Turkey), Greece and the islands of Aegean. (On my site, burlingtonnews.net/tunnels you will find that thirty six underground cities have been discovered so far in Cappadocia with some going down eight levels. Some of these cities can hold a population of thousands. The ventiliation system are so efficient that even eight floors below the surface the air is still fresh. Thirty vast underground cities and tunnel complexs have also been found near Derinkuya in Turkey). 

The name Danaan is derived from their worship of the moon goddess, Diana (Dana). The Island of Rhodes,was the home of the Danaan brotherhood of initiates and magicians known as the Telchines. According to the Greek historian Diodorus, these initiates had the ability to heal, change the weather, and 'shape-shift' into any form. (The name Rhodes, which is connect to the German "Rot", meaning red, as with Rothschild (Red-Shield) became a code name for the bloodlines. Malta , too, was was an important center in 3500 B.C. and the home of a major Mystery School. Under Malta is a vast network of tunnels and megalithic temples where secret rituals took place and still do today. Malta's original name was Lato, named after Mother Lato, the serpent goddess. The Knights Templar secret society was formed in the late 11th century to protect the reptilian bloodline or 'Le Serpent rouge ' the red serpent or serpent blood, together with their associated order, the highly secretive Priory of Sion.

The Danaans also settled on Cyprus, known during ancient times as "La-Dan" or the "Isle of Dan". There is little doubt that the "Isle of Man" in the Irish Sea, a place so important to the Druids, was a Danaan settlement. The Tauras Mountains in Turkey, the Baleric Islands and Syria were also Danaan settlements. After arriving in the British Isles, they became known as the "Tuatha de Danaan". According to Sir Laurence Gardener " Sumaire" in the old Irish language means Dragon. He further believes that the subsequent culture of the region, phoenically called Sumerian (pronounced "Shumerian") was actually Sidhemurian (Shee-murian) . This case is now considerable since the early Ring Lords of Scythia (the Tuatha De Danaan king tribe) were actually called the 'Sumaire'.

The female Amazons were a branch of the Hesperides or Hespera, a name for Atlantis. They, too, followed the goddess Athene or Nieth and venerated her symbol, the double-headed axe. They built shrines to the goddess in many places, including the famous centre for Diana worship at Ephesus and other locations along the Turkish coast.

*THE GREAT WAR*(Reference: Children of the Matrix, David Icke)

Jeoulosy between the Atlantean Kings erupted resulting in a great world war. Laws of Nature were abused and nucleur and 
high tech wars took place on planet Earth, bringing about great earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, plate shifts, and other great 
disasters...including radioactive fallout.

Stories from the Americas describe highly advanced beings,arriving with great knowledge from their sunken homeland.
The Polynesians claim that Atlantean survivors travelled to India before returning to the remnants of their homeland, the Pacific Islands, and becoming the Polynesians. James Churchward says that these people also settled in Egypt via India. Chinese legend talks of a continent in the area called Maurigosima, which sank amidst a great cataclysm, but its king, Peiru-un, escaped to mainland China and continued his bloodline there.

After the destruction of Atlantis and the surface of Earth was once again safe to live on, the Atlantean survivors began to 
recolonise the planet.
The snake travelled the world and finally bit its own tail back to Australia ,where the lightning brothers came. 
These 2 men were the 'biblical' *MOSES AND AARON* who were known to the Egyptians as the Pharoahs *AHKTANATEN and SMENKARE* . Their sister, Miriam was the Egyptian *NEFERTITI* . They brought with them the* LAW* and the sacred colour *RED* ..The one outstanding life form they left us was the Egyptian war dog now called the *DINGO.*

The daughter traveled with the *AID OF FLIGHT* and moved through Asia to the North of Australia leaving the dingo and the *STORY OF THE SACRED KINGFISHER* along the way until arriving in Nova Scotia by air and *BRINGING TO AMERICA* the law and the dingo now called the *CAROLINA WILD DOG*. . Then to Scotland.. not directly from Egypt, as was and still is thought to be the case,..

The promise of the Bird King is fulfilled in the Time of Darkness.....from now on the truth will come forth.*"Red is his hair , hooked his nose. Fair is his skin and green are his eyes"* The same description as all tribal people throughout the world have...*He is the bear,the snake the smooth white stone ,the eagle,the sacred secret kingfisher and the red flower sometimes called a rose."*_"The Snake, the Bear, the Smooth White Stone, the Sacred Red Flow-er and most important, Iam the Sacred Kingfisher ..from the blood who also gave you the Wild Dog which is the Egyptian War Dog, known as the dingo. Iam the Living Sun Dance. Red is my hair. Green is my Eyes. Fair is my Skin and Hooked is my Nose. Iam the Promised Bird King"The Aboriginal of the Finders Rangers have already declared me so. The place where it was declared is a place called BELTANA . To them I am POPPADIDGEEDIDGEE."_


*The Old Testament's story of Moses being placed in a basket and floated* 
*down the river to be found by a royal family mirrors the earler Sumerian* 
*account of King Sargon.*


*Sumerian Star Gods*

In agreement with biblical history, Sumerian texts documented stories of extraterrestrials called 'star gods' whointerbred with 
human women and took the eartly kings to the stars. According to the Sumerians, the 'star gods' were from Mars, the star 
system Pleiades and the star Sirius. The Sumerian texts also contain drawings of the solar system

From Waddell's book, *Makers of Civilization*, we find that the accounts of Sargon were recorded prior to ancient Egypt and that the Sargon records were not written in Egyptian hieroglyphs, but Sumerian hieroglyphs. The early Sumerian-Egyptian 
hieroglyphs shows Sargon's grandfather as a world leader known to the Egyptians as Khetm, the Sumerians as Takhu or Tekhi. In the Old Sumerian Kings List he was known as Tuke and in the Indian King List he was called Vri-Taka or Dhri-Taka.

Sargon's father inherited the kingship and became in Egypt as Ro but called Puru-Gin in Sumerian-Egptian hieroglyphs. In the Old Sumerian Kings List he was known as Buru-gina; in the Indus Valley Seals he was Buru or Puru and in the Indian king 
lists he was called Puru (II).

Inscriptions about King Sargon were discovered in one of the oldest tombs located at Abydos in Upper Egypt. Waddell recognized the inscriptions as of the same script he had seen on the Sumerian seals found in the Indus Valley.

In the early Sumerian script King Sargon was known under his personal name of Gin-Ukus and in Egypt he was known under his personal name as Gin-Ukussi. The title Ukus or Ukussi in Egypt signifies that he was 'descendant of the first Sumerian 
king, Ukusi or Ukhu ( meaning Sun Hawk) ...the first Aryan King. Both the Indian Epics and their Holy Books, the Vedas, uses the solar title of Ikshwaku or Ukusi of Ukhu. All these kings of the Sumer Empire were given 'solar titles' because of the emphasis on the worship of the Sun and the symbolism of the Sun as God. It is extremely likely that Horus or Haru, the Egyptian Son of God came from the Sumerian word, Hu or Ha, meaning 'HAWK'. (Hawk or Sun-Hawk was a Sumerian symbol for the Sun)

*King Menes*Menes, son of Sargon and the first Egyptian Pharoah, led a revolt against his father and took control of Egypt, declaring it 
independent of Sumer. As a result, Sargon not only disinherited him but gave the succession of kingship to Sargon;s younger 
brother. After a decade or more his brother died and Mene's took over the kingship, uniting Sumer again with Egypt. (Evidence 
now points to Menes dying on an ocean voyage to the West. )


*Ireland and Scotland*

The Egyptians established a colony in Ireland . The Egyptologist, Lorraine Evans, _'Kingdom of the Ark'_*,* suggests that the 
colonists were led by Princess Scotia, daughter of Akhenaten and half sister to Tutankhamen. She died in battle and the grave yet today is marked by a slab that has never been excavated. Scotia's descendents went on to become of the High kings of Ireland at TARA in County Meath and then continued on to Scotland which means 'Land of Scotia'.

King Dan I (ODIN) commenced his reign in Scandinavia in the year 1040 B.C. and his family line was known to have stretched back to Troy.

O-DIN is a title indicative of Kingship or Shepherd lineage. (Also known as WO-DEN, WO-TAN and DAN) ODIN comes from the Hebrew ADONAI which means "LORD". The families descended from ODIN derive from the ancient Trojan Kings.

Ancient classical and extra-Biblical sources indicate that the TROJAN KINGS were of the ROYAL LINE OF JUDAH and that they were closely related to other ROYAL FAMILIES IN IONA, GREECE AND CRETE. The early British king-line is traditionally DESCENDED THROUGH THE TROJAN KINGS, and the kings of Ireland are stated to have sprung from the MILESIAN ROYAL FAMILY in IONA into which 'Pharaoh's daughter' married." _._ Priam Herman L. Hoeh traced Odin's linege back to Jacob, which confims he was of the kingship line.

"Accepting these sources," notes the magazine, "the royal families of the NORTHERN NATIONS OF EUROPE -- Irish-Scottish, Early British, Frankish, Norwegian -- are all of the SCEPTRE TRIBE OF JUDAH and the many intermarriages of these royal lines would thus all be within the one great royal family of which so much is prophesied in Scripture.Queen Elizabeth II has stated that 
she is WODEN-BORN" (Dec. 1981. Christian Israel Foundation, Walsall, England. P. 117).

*"....The Battle of Troy, indeed Troy itself, was long thought of as just part of incredible Greek legends or mythology. Troy and the events pertaining to it were still considered to be pure mythological when Charles McLaren sugested, back in 1822, that a certain mound in eastern Turkey, called Hissarlik, was the site of the Homeric Troy. It was only when a businessman named Heinrich Schliemann, risking his own money, came up with spectacular discoveries as he dug up the mound in 1870, that scholars began to acknowledge the existence of Troy. It is now accepted that the Battle of Troy had actually taken place in the thirteenth century B.C. It was then, according to the Greek sources, that "gods" and men had fought side by side; in such beliefs the Greeks* 
*were not alone.*

----------


## DejaVu

*Canaanite & Phoenician History - Culture*
http://www.lost-civilizations.net/phoenicians-history.html

Between the period of 1200 B.C. and 900 B.C. there was no major military power in Mesopotamia. Therefor smaller states like Phoenicia and the Hebrew kingdom were able to prosper. These kingdoms especially the Phoenicians started to trade throughout the Mediterranean region. 
Phoenicia (foh-NEE-shee-ah) Phoenicia is the Greek name for the country and
people living on the coast of Syria in ancient times at the east end of the
Mediterranean Sea. It is believed that economic opportunity and population
pressures forced them out into the seas. The Phoenicians colonized many areas
along the Mediterranean Sea. Areas where their colonies have been found:
Sardinia Cyprus, and Carthage-most important and lasting colony By far they
were superior to all peoples of that time in seamanship. Legend has it that an

Egyptian pharaoh hired a band of Phoenicians to map and circumnavigate the
coast of Africa. They are best remembered for their contributions in the
establishment to trade with the many peoples living along the Mediterranean
Sea. The Greeks received their alphabet from them as late as the 10th century
B.C. or as early as the 15th. Other antiquities famed to the Phoenicians include
carved ivories to be used in furniture, metalwork, and especially glassware. 

THE PHOENICIANS ROUTES OF THE PHOENICIANS The Fertile
Crescent is roughly an arc-shaped area which stretches from the mouth of the
Tigris and Euphrates rivers at the Persian Gulf, west to the Red Sea. About
5,000 years ago it was inhabited by a race know as Semites. The Semites who
lived in the eastern portion of the Fertile Crescent were Sumerians, Assyrians,
and Babylonians. In the western portion lived the Amorites. Those Amorites
who settled in what are today Lebanon, Syria, and Israel were know as
Canaanites. Later, the Greek called them Phoenicians. 

PHOENICIANS IN HISTORY There is no doubt the the Phoenicians were
among the most interesting people in history. Because they left so few written
records of their own achievements, their history has been pieced together from
records of all the other nations with which they came in contact, either through
trade or through battle. Other information has been gathered from the work of
archaeologists whose digging have unearthed tombs of their rulers or what little is left of their cities. 



The Phoenician Alphabet.
THE OLDEST CITY IN THE WORLD Archaeologists have uncovered
homes of farmers and fishermen in Gebeil dating back to 7000 B.C. They found
one-room huts with crushed limestone floors and stone idol of god El. Because
of these discoveries, it is thought that Gebeil (later known as Byblos) may
actually be the oldest city in the world. 


TIES WITH EGYPT As far as back as 3200 B.C., the people of Gebeil
(Byblos) were cutting down cedar trees in the mountains of Lebanon, to be
shipped to Egypt and Mesopotamia for use in building ships and making
columns for houses. In return, the Phoenicians brought back gold, copper, and
turquoise from the Nile Valley and Sinai. Canaanite ceramic pieces have been
found in Egyptian tombs dating back to 2999 B.C. In 1954, archaeologists
found Cheops (khufu) at Giza. Cheops lived around 2550 B.C. The barge was
made of Lebanese cedar wood and faint scent of the cedar was still in the grain
at the time of its discovery. 

THE ALPHABET Sumerian cuneiforms (wedge shaped symbols in clay
tablets) and Egyptian hieroglyphics (pictographs) were the only known forms of
writing before the alphabet as we know it was developed. Both scripts, though
separately created, used picture writing. Eventually, pictures or signs
represented sounds. Finally, the pictures became so simplified that a whole
word was written as a single sign. By about 1200 B.C., the Phoenicians had
developed symbols which in time became a real alphabet. The Phoenician
alphabet consisted of twenty-two symbols, all consonants. Each one
represented its own sound. The Egyptian symbol for the ox head was given the
Semitic name aleph and was sounded as "a." The symbol for house became
Beth and was sounded as "b." It is easily see how the Phoenician alphabet was
used to form the other alphabets which followed it. Aleph became the Greek
alpha, Beth became beta. In time, these letters became the Roman letters A and
B and eventually the English A and B, and so on for the entire alphabet. Once a
written language was established, it was inscribed on Egyptian papyrus, a type
of paper made of reeds. So, closely linked with papyrus with the city of Byblos
(which traded cedar for the paper) that when the writing of the Hebrew
prophets were translated into Greek the city's name was given to the great book
- the Bible. Because the papyrus rotted away in the damp sea air and soil, there
are practically no Phoenician writings left. Thus, the literature of the people
who influenced the western world in her writing has largely vanished. Still,
because Egyptian scribes copied the Phoenician letters after hieroglyphics were
no longer used, and because artists in Ninevah inscribed them in stone, the
alphabet remains with us. Alphabet

THE CITY-STATES For the next three centuries, independent Phoenicia
reached its height as a nation whose prime interests were trade, the arts, and
religion. Organized into individual city-states, each Phoenician city was under
its own form of government. Each had its own god and its own ruler, whose
usually remained in power for life. Gebeil (Byblos) was a strong religious
city-state. Sidon and tyre were cities of Business, industry, and navigation. 

The city-states were all linked by their common ancestors, language, and writing.
Their mutual interests were their trade arrangements, their customs, and their
rituals and beliefs. Nevertheless, even though they were only a one or two day
march from each other, they never were able to unite as a single power when
they were attacked. 


TYRE, THE PURPLE DYE CENTER Tyre was the major region for the
purple dye industry, which probably began as early as the 18th century B.C.
The dye was carefully extracted, a few drops at a time from the murex, a
shell-fish found in the waters off of Tyre and sidon. The process used to extract
the fluid was so difficult and so expensive that only the rich could afford to buy
the dyed fabric. It is because of this Phoenician fabric that we still use the
expression "born in the purple" to mean one who is born rich. 

ON THE SEA The Mediterranean Sea allowed the Phoenicians to wander, to
explore, and to discover. It was their link to a world that awaited their skill and
their art. These fine merchants brought their dye, fabric, ceramics, glass, metals,
wine, crops, and oil from port to port. They became the world's finest maritime
nation. The Phoenicians were not only adventurous merchants but expert
sailors and navigators as well. They colonized parts of Cyprus, Rhodes, and the
Aegean Islands. Phoenician sailors journeyed east to the Black Sea and west to
places such as Corinth, Thebes, Sardinia, Palermo, Marseille, Corsica, and
Malta. They were known to have gone as far as Gibraltar and Cadiz in Spain.
By about 1000 B.C., they had finally reached the Atlantic Ocean. The Greeks
were influenced in their navigation by the Phoenicians, who taught them to sail
by the North star. The Greeks have designs on their ships similar to those from
Phoenician models. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch
*Moloch*, *Molech*, *Molekh*, *Molok*, *Molek*, *Molock*, or *Moloc* (representing Semitic מלך _m-l-k_, a Semitic root meaning "king") is the name of an ancient Semitic god, in particular a god of the Phoenicians, and the name of a particular kind of child sacrifice associated with that god.
Moloch was historically affiliated with cultures throughout the Middle East, including the Ammonite, Hebrew, Canaanite, Phoenician and related cultures in North Africa and the Levant.
In modern English usage, "Moloch" can refer derivatively to any person or thing which demands or requires costly sacrifices.

*Meaning of symbols:*

http://www.ancient-symbols.com/
http://www.crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html 
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/signsymbols.htm


*Phoenician - DNA? J2(only)?*

*The Scythians are the Tribe of Dan (haplogroup I and other included)?* 

*Red and white colours on heraldic symbols and flags have been chosen by the royal ancestors and have nothing to do with the ordinary people (not same people)?* 

*Looking for a single haplogroup in any ancient or modern country/people is impossible because of mixture occured before countries were created?*

----------


## Garrick

> how yes no
> It is fundamentally question about *old I language*.
> 
> I gives five hypotheses:
> 
> 1) the men from the Vinca civilization belonged *R1a*
> 
> 2) but if it is no true then Vincans belonged to a branch *I*.
> 
> ...


One source that may be very useful:

According to Marija Gimbutas, *the Vinča culture was part of Old Europe* – a relatively homogeneous, peaceful and matrifocal culture that occupied Europe during the Neolithic. According to this theory its period of decline was followed *by an invasion of warlike, horse-riding Proto-Indo-European* *tribes from the Pontic-Caspian steppe*.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture

If Vincans were Old Europeans, then hypothesis 2) is correct:

 Vincans belonged to a branch *I*.

This can be prove a Y-DNA test.

If this test proves *Vincans were carriers of I haplogroup* to be an 
indisputable fact,

and if can be reconstructed *language of the Vincans (Old Serbs?)*

it may happen that a picture of the history of Slavic (R1a) cultures and languages can be changed!

----------


## how yes no 2

Garrick,

don't get carried away... all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable...it does not really matter, except for historical curiosity, what branch was related to what ancient civilization...

here is a map that is relevant for your question...


as this was very long time ago in past, it is very difficult to guess what were haplogroups dominant in different neolithic sites...

the possibility that you proposed for Vinca is possible taking into account that R1a seems to be very old in Balkan, and that I2a2 seems to have been around for very long time... but Vinca culture is as you see relatively small area and could have been a product of people belonging to some other haplogroups as well....

Looking at the map, Vinca could indeed have been R1a considering R1a is according to Klyosov ancient old in areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia 

As for I2a2, I would search for it original core just north of Black sea, so I would put my bet on Dnieper-Don culture... printed-cardium pottery would be likely J2 dominant... Ertebølle culture would be I1 haplogroup related..Comb Ceramic pottery would be N related... but this is all guessing...

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick,
> 
> don't get carried away... all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable...it does not really matter, except for historical curiosity, what branch was related to what ancient civilization...
> 
> here is a map that is relevant for your question...
> 
> as this was very long time ago in past, it is very difficult to guess what were haplogroups dominant in different neolithic sites...
> 
> the possibility that you proposed for Vinca is possible taking into account that R1a seems to be very old in Balkan, and that I2a2 seems to have been around for very long time... but Vinca culture is as you see relatively small area and could have been a product of people belonging to some other haplogroups as well....
> ...


how yes no
You're right an it is big true, certainly all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable.

Yes, I saw that R1a in Balkan is very old.

That's why I gave several hypotheses regarding the origin old Vincians.

It is clear that it is much much remains unclear in the darkness of the past and now we are trying to reconstruct.

One of the great unsolved questions is *what language old Balkan Clan I spoke*?

It is no chance that similar language is developed by Old Europeans (Balkan inhabitants) I haplogroup (Old Serb?) and Indo Europeans (Central Asia inhabitants) R1a haplogroup who came on Balkan 10 kya ago (sooner or later).

It is clearly that the following options:1) *I carries* *received* language and culture of *R1a carriers*, or 2) *I carriers instilled* a culture and language *R1a carriers*, or 3) maybe it exists any *third option*.

But of course *I* and *R1a carriers* milennia lived side by side and it is extremy valuable that someone find out what really happened.

I think among *elderly Serbs* and *R1a carriers* (is it correct at that time be called *Slavs?*) there is an unbreakable cultural relations but these are descendants of two *very different Clans*, one of them (close to *J*) that is before 25,000 kya moved from Anatolia to the Balkan so it is called Old European, and others one of branch Indo European that originated in Central Asia and is about 10 kya moved to the Balkan.

We can say that originally Serbs are no Slavs (I haplogroup is different than R1a haplogroup), but this can be a quick conclusion, without delving into the matter, really big question is *whether old R1a* at a time when arriving in Balkan and beyond, *may be called Slavs*?

----------


## how yes no 2

> I think among *elderly Serbs* and *R1a carriers* (is it correct at that time be called *Slavs?*) there is an unbreakable cultural relations but these are descendants of two *very different Clans*, one of them (close to *J*) that is before 25,000 kya moved from Anatolia to the Balkan so it is called Old European, and others one of branch Indo European that originated in Central Asia and is about 10 kya moved to the Balkan.


From what we currently know from history there is no such a thing as old Serbs that you can relate to ancient R1a of Balkans...if these R1a can be related to any historic nation of the region than it would be more logical to relate it to ancient Macedonians, as Greek Macedonia is hotspot of R1a on central and east Balkans

btw. it is very strange that Serbia despite supposed massive settlements of Slavs have only low frequencies of R1a and now it seems that even those are mostly native... so, something does not fit there... perhaps original Slavs were very I2a2 dominant which justifies Jordanes callling them Veneti race, while R1a in Slavic countries comes from assimilated other people......

btw. compare this pictures




http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png

and while I2a2 shows clear correlation with early Slav mention in history, same is not clear for R1a as its hotspots are on other places and its gradient doesnot seem to show anything alike shape of spread of early Slavs...



anyway, back to old Serbs... at the moment there is no evidence of existence of such a thing that we can call old Serbs

there are Serbs of now who carry set of different haplogroups: I2a2, E-V13,R1a, various J, R1b....

and we can talk of proto-Serbs who have supposedly moved to Balkan from land of Boika (likely Bohemia named after Celtic Boii) somewhere in 7th century....

relating Serb name to anything further in past is very difficult... there is Serboi tribe in Caspian mountains around 1st century AD, and there is note of Seneca about Serians in that area, around Danube, in northwest China, and on Red sea... but we cannot be sure his Serians are in fact proto-Serbs...and while we can see haplogroup I (we still not known whether it is I2a2) in Asia matching arc of Serians from India to China there is no haplogroup I around Red sea...

hope you are not one of the people who would try to respond to this by quoting quasi-historian Deretic because that guy is everything but credible historian... his theories of Serbs everywhere are delusional....

so it is better to skip using word old Serbs until we can be sure whether there is such thing and what would that notion encompass




> We can say that originally Serbs are no Slavs (I haplogroup is different than R1a haplogroup), but this can be a quick conclusion, without delving into the matter, really big question is *whether old R1a* at a time when arriving in Balkan and beyond, *may be called Slavs*?


According to Klyosov's data R1a must have spread from Balkan to east Europe and Asia.. which means not that that old R1a is Slavic (Slavic is about latest cultural development in that group), but that Scythian, Slavic.. R1a origins from the Balkan core...what was the language and culture of that R1a is completely unknown...probably proto-Indo-European or some language predating it, as this was very long time ago... so to claim it Slavic is a bit funny because Slavic/Germanic/Italic...languages all likely developed later than those times from common proto-indo-european language...

additional thing is, you must realize that languages and cultures are changed quite often.... much more often that people think.....

after hearing that argument in my discussion with someone else several years ago, I keep reminding people on that by using latin language as an example... 
2500 years before present it was spoken only around little village called Rome, and now languages derived from it are spoken in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin America...

----------


## Garrick

> From what we currently know from history there is no such a thing as old Serbs that you can relate to ancient R1a of Balkans...if these R1a can be related to any historic nation of the region than it would be more logical to relate it to ancient Macedonians, as Greek Macedonia is hotspot of R1a on central and east Balkans





> btw. it is very strange that Serbia despite supposed massive settlements of Slavs have only low frequencies of R1a and now it seems that even those are mostly native... so, something does not fit there... perhaps original Slavs were very I2a2 dominant which justifies Jordanes callling them Veneti race, while R1a in Slavic countries comes from assimilated other people......
> 
> btw. compare this pictureshttp://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT...trclusters.png
> 
> and while I2a2 shows clear correlation with early Slav mention in history, same is not clear for R1a as its hotspots are on other places and its gradient doesnot seem to show anything alike shape of spread of early 
> 
> anyway, back to old Serbs... at the moment there is no evidence of existence of such a thing that we can call old Serbs
> 
> ...


how yes no
The word Serb is very very old, term can be found throughout Europe and Asia, including India.

There is no agreement what the term in an I old language could exact mean, it is mentioned: a human, a cousin, alive, strong, a guardian, etc.

But that's not what I want to make a point.

We still do not know in the Balkans in the past that haplogroup belonged to the tribes and languages that are spoken.

For example we might assume that certain southern Illyrian tribes were haplogroup E1b1b (and maybe it is possible trace the connection with today's Albanians), but also part of the ancient Greeks belonged to this haplogroup, probably part of the Thracians, and we do not know whether and to what extent holders of these haplogroups were Dacians.

E1b1b haplogroup originated from Africa (Ethiopia/Somalia), and J haplogroup originated from Middle East.

But no one can accept the Albanian claim that all the Illyrians were E1b1b ie. descendants of today's Albanian, because it does not confirm today's testing haplogroups, and the question is generally whether the Illyrian people can be considered as coherent, or it is a set of tribes of different origin, as we see today's Y DNA tests.

For example Triballi, Moesi, Scordisci, Liburni, Breuci, Autariatae, Sardeati... and many other tribes may be associated with the I, I2 haplogroup, i.e. old Serbs.

According Wiik (2008) the first inhabitants of Balkan were I carriers, who came on Balkan from Anatolia 25000 ago, I carriers is often referred to as Old Europeans. 

When early farmers (the carriers E and J haplogroup) came on Balkan from Middle East 10000 years ago they found a population that has long already been there.

Early farmers were probably pushed the old I carriers in the south and south-west but but not in other parts of Balkan.

I carriers (ancestors of Old Serbs), are spread to the north and north-east, also.

However, the situation is more complex, because about 10000 years, Indo Europeans, carriers R1a haplogroup, came in Balkan from the north from Euroasia, and maybe carriers R1b haplogroup (or later).

That is why historians, linguists and others very difficult to manage, the Balkan was an area where the tribes were very different backgrounds.

Only researching Y DNA of remains of tribesman can determine exactly which tribe belonged to a particular haplogroup and when, so we can find which the tribes belonged to Old Serbs, Greeks, Romanians and other Balkan people.

----------


## Bogdan

Thing about the R1a and I2a is id say theyre both reconized as beign "slavic" haplogroups and are found in relatively large frequencies in almost all slavic countries but east and west dominate with R1a where for the south its opposite I and then R. Now theory is that R1a came and mixed with the I2a already there forming slavs.... now this invasion might of been violent or not depending if the newcomers had better weapons as is suggested then well they might of started killing the natives and these slavs sought refuge in the mountains or the mountain dwelling oens survived as waging mountain guerrila warfare is a very effective tactic or defense just look to afghanistan now for example. So it might be that these I2a slavs are mostly found in the mountains for example in polish highlands, tatras mountains so forth. In time these people would of have more peacefully assimilated or started living together forming the ethnic identity known as slavs. and that these slavs who might of been more warlike or aggresive, the mountaineers where one sought by byzantines to fight avars in the balkans and hence why the presence of I2a is so prominant. As this haplogroup can really be called south slavic as no one else has it at such large quantites and no other balkan people have them either in such large quantities either... But that's just my theory

----------


## Dalmat

eh... the usual Serb mythomania,i did some comparison of it and it can hold water,because according to it,Serbs well correlate in spread with Gypsies,which is funny because we Croatians usually nickname the Serbs as "Gypsies". (could that just be coincidence?)
There is an old Serb saying:"Srbi svi i svuda" which means "All Serbs are everywhere"
Just like gypsies are.

----------


## how yes no 2

> eh... the usual Serb mythomania,i did some comparison of it and it can hold water,because according to it,Serbs well correlate in spread with Gypsies,which is funny because we Croatians usually nickname the Serbs as "Gypsies". (could that just be coincidence?)
> There is an old Serb saying:"Srbi svi i svuda" which means "All Serbs are everywhere"
> Just like gypsies are.


your words have inspired me to suggest that Y-DNA research should be R-rated... I can imagine that such a restriction would help that frustrated kids who search own worth in nationalistic ideas, do not masturbate on thoughts of own higher worth compared to neighbouring linguistically identical and genetically very similar nations....

----------


## Garrick

> your words have inspired me to suggest that Y-DNA research should be R-rated... I can imagine that such a restriction would help that frustrated kids who search own worth in nationalistic ideas, do not masturbate on thoughts of own higher worth compared to neighbouring linguistically identical and genetically very similar nations....


Croats and Serbs is difficult for others to understand.

For example:

Croats are mostly _R1a_ but they tend to present as _I_ using a targeted survey of selected regions and limited samples.

On the other hand there are Serbs who would like to see greater participation of the _R1a_ but _I_ haplogroup is dominantly among the Serbs.

However, there are works where attempts to penetrate the origin on the basis of facts, so Šlaus et al in "Craniometric Relationships among medieval Central European Populations: Implications for Migration and Expansion Croat" point to Poland as a possible country of origin of Croats:

The results of these analyses are fairly consistent
with the report written by the anonymous writer in the
30th chapter of the “De Administrando Imperio” (16).
Principal components analysis suggested that early
medieval Croats were of Slavic origin and shared a
common homeland with early medieval Poles, possibly
in modern Poland and almost certainly in “… an
area north of Bavaria …” from where they migrated to
the east Adriatic coast.


Clearly, text like Dalmat's post are stupid, of course, every effort to someone presents the Serbs or Croats as Gypsies only reflects the his/her frustration because neither the Serbs nor the Croats are Gypsies.

But I am convinced that relations between Serbs and Croats will improve in this century, and people should work together on it and build confidence.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Croats and Serbs is difficult for others to understand.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Croats are mostly _R1a_ but they tend to present as _I_ using a targeted survey of selected regions and limited samples.
> 
> On the other hand there are Serbs who would like to see greater participation of the _R1a_ but _I_ haplogroup is dominantly among the Serbs.


Croat ultra-nationalists tend to reject Slavic origin of Croats and try to search for Iranian (read Arian) and Gothic (read Germanic) theories of origin. Being close to Germanic origin is why they desperatelly need I haplogroup.

Serb ultra-nationalsts are on other hand pan-Slavic and pro-Russian, and they desperatelly need more R1a in Serbs in order to be of the same origin as other Slavic nations.

Those preferences were clearly induced by historical, cultural and religious developments. 

Croats are catholics and people who lived for long time in Austro-Hungarian empire where politically and culturally dominant people were Germans. In that state however, Croats were second order citizens but still well respected and integrated in the state, and many of them felt that state as their own. Due to that Croat nationalists tend to observe Germanic as higher worth than Slavic and try to relate themselves to Germanic people. 

Serbs on other hand are ortodox and spent few honderd years under Turkish dominantion. Turkish domination was very fierce and every Serb living under Turkey rule dreamed of liberation. They saw inspiration for liberation of Turks in successes of ortodox Russian state who historically had same enemy - Turkey. Thus, Serb nationalists were traditionally inspired by Russians and thus have strong pan-Slavic orientation.

Btw. religion played big part in ex-yu wars as well. Wars were only between people of different religions e.g. there were wars between ortodox Serbs and catholic Croats in Croatia and Bosnia, between ortodox Serbs and Bosnian musilms (Bosnia muslims are Slavic people who converted to islam during Turkish occupation), also (which is less known in west media) during war in Bosnia there was for long time war between catholic Croats and Bosnia muslims, there was war in Macedonia between ortodox Macedonians and muslim Albanians, and there was war between ortodox Serbs and Albanian muslims (Kosovo and Macedonia Albanians are exclusively muslim population)...

There were no wars between catholic Slovenia and catholic Croatia, between ortodox Serbia and ortodox Montenegro, between ortodox Serbia and ortodox Macedonia...

All these wars were just revived second world war wars... when Croatia was nazi puppet state that included Bosnia, and when big Albania was nazi puppet state that included Kosovo and west Macedonia.

Problem was that comunists were not making multi-ethnic multi-religious society but instead tried to make single nation with single religion called communism, so they did suppress all nationalisms and religions. This worked quite well while strongman Tito was in power. However, after his death and when comunism died in whole east Europe, communistic religion was desintegrating and with it also Yugoslav national identity. Pandora's box was wide open by set of irresponsible politicians collecting political points with nationalistic campaigns and by media they controlled...

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## willy

Yes so may be the communist power was more adapted to these communities ?

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## how yes no 2

> Yes so may be the communist power was more adapted to these communities ?


it is hard to say that...

people were happier and had much higher moral values, and much better life...

but in a way wars has showed that all those values were superficial as communist ideology was easily replaced with nationalism as ideology... esentially, black and white division of the world was just remapped to different dualistic divisions between competing groups (from the ones defining comunism as opposed to capitalism to the ones defining nations as opposed to competing nations)...

problem with all ideologies and religions is that they need enemies in order to define and extend their borders... logically, this leads to conflicts and wars...

what Balkan need is long period of living in peace, so that people living there can free themselves from identifying self in being 'for' and 'against' some groups ... people with strong individual personalities were not easily brainwashed by hate spreading media machines and by the black and white world views that those medias were imposing...

still, this individualism should not be on account of suppresing nationalism as it was done in communism, but by transforming nationalism into broader view in which there is clear awareness how all people share same rather recent origin and that thus nations are more as branches of the same tree than they are competitors ...

problem with highly individualistic people is that they will not organize in the group to defend their values when attacked by some homogeneous group

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## LeBrok

History is interesting guys. Iranians/Aryans were most likely R1a or I2a people, or mixture. Now Goths landed at Black Sea for couple hundred years and picked up Arianism as a religion, maybe even from proto Serbs.  :Petrified: 
Then they moved to western Europe and became Christians with Aryan influence. Then for next thousand years everybody thought that Goths, therefore Germanic people, where Aryans.
Now through genetic testing we learnt that Aryans who went south to India and Iran, as per Sanskrit, where mostly R1a people. 
Now, that's a twist, lol.

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## Regulus

I just thought that it would be a good idea to clarify the whole 
Arian/Aryan thing. In case someone gets the mistaken impression since the words have the same sound.

The Aryans, as a tribe/group, were an ethnic/cultural subset of Iranians peoples. That makes them similar in that case to other Iranian-derived groups such as Scythians (and their offshoots), Medes, Mitanni, Persians possibly Yue-chi, and others that still exist today.

Arian, however, is a word that derives from a completely different source. Arius of Alexandria, a priest in Egypt in the days before the adoption on the Nicene Creed by the Church, began to teach that the Son was not of the same substance as the Father and therefore was created at some point. This differed quite a bit from what the Orthodox (both of East and West before their split) Christians said. 
Arius’ teaching spread throughout much of the Church, it found a disproportionate amount of support by Eastern Bishops. It gained so many influential supporters that Jerome wrote “The world awoke to find itself Arian”.
It was not until the major ecumenical council of Nicea, where the Emperor Constantine was even asked to sort of act as host, that the Church itself officially rejected Arianism. It continued to have support among some for some time after, especially among the Goths and other Germans, who had been converted to Christianity by Arian missionaries.(I can't remember the missionaries' names and don't have time to look them up) Adherence to Arianism was to be a factor in discord between ruler and subject in places such as Spain, which came to be ruled by Visigoths. Adoption of Orthodox/Catholicism was to be a source of unity and stronger foundation for the power of the Frankish Kings.

It was not until the 19th century racial theorists got involved in confusing the terms Nordic and Aryan and by extension losing the whole picture of what Indo-Europeans were that some came to the conclusion that the Christianity of the Goths was called Arian because they themselves were Aryan.

To sum it up: Goths and Aryans, while both IE, both belong to wider base-IE groups (Goth origin in other Germanics- Aryans origin in Iranians) and are not otherwise related.

Arian Christianity was the name given to the teaching that gained much ground in the early Church until its rejection and subsequent adoption of the Nicene Creed (influenced much by Athanasius)

The same pronunciation of Aryan-Arian is pure coincidence.

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## LeBrok

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah, that's how it really went. Thanks Regulus. :)
If it comes to history you are living reincarnation of Wiki. My hat's off.

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## Regulus

You give too much, too much. In reality, I am just a loser with no life. My wife would be much happier if I did not have my nose buried in books.

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## how yes no 2

> History is interesting guys. Iranians/Aryans were most likely R1a or I2a people, or mixture. Now Goths landed at Black Sea for couple hundred years and picked up Arianism as a religion, maybe even from proto Serbs.


Actually, it seems to me that Aryans were J2 with some G...
I explained that in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093

----------


## jdanel

The timing of the founding of I2a2a and b is not something that I know 
anything about so I have to accept Ken Nordtvedt's conclusions about that.
It is the location that seems a problem to me.

----------------

The founding and migration 

If I am reading his Warped Founders Tree correctly, I2a2a and I2a2b branched 
off a proto I2a2 (that no longer exists?) about 13,000 years ago. That 
requires that the founders were in the same geography at that time. If 
northern Germany, how did all those !2a2a get all the way back down into the 
Balkans? Difficult, if not impossible. Especially with the Carpathians in the way.

Much simpler to see the location as being the area of deltas of the Danube 
and Dneister. Then, perhaps in the warm spell before the Younger Dryas, the 
two groups migrated upriver - I2a2a going up the Danube and I2a2b going up 
the Dneister - leading to a quick clean split. The impassibility of the 
Carpathians reinforced and maintained the split over time. 

The I2a2b moved on, seems likely, to Doggerland and the I2a2a were contained
in the Balkans.

-----------

Doggerland Genetic Bottleneck: N* <<< N
Caused by the Younger Dryas, Lake Agassiz drainage, and the Storegga tsunamis

As Doggerland submerged and the land divided, the I2a2b were split - a few 
on the west side and a very few on the east but the majority were trapped and 
slowly dying out on shrinking Doggerland islands where they were running out
of firewood (as happened at Easter Island). They had neither the marine
technology to escape the slowly rising water nor the wood to make boats. This
was happening during the Younger Dryas glacial period so the population would 
have had a hard time maintaining themselves during this long time of land 
subsidence and bitter cold. A population collapse would seem very likely as a result.

Then, at the end of the Younger Dryas, there were four catastrophic events 
over the span of less than a couple hundred years. Lake Agassiz
drained, raising the sea level 1 to 3 meters in a matter of only a few days time. 
This would have caused major habitat and resource destruction in the low flat islands 
and shorelines of Doggerland resulting great loss of life. Then the remnants of Doggerland 
were destroyed and the remaining I2a2b were nearly exterminated by the three 
devastating Storegga Tsunamis about 6,200 BC creating a major genetic "bottleneck" 
(e.g. N*=small). This "bottleneck" might go a long ways toward explaining the very long
time between the founding of I2a2b about 13,000 ya and and the TMRCA only about 
5,000 ya. It might also explain the relatively low numbers of I2a2b overall.

[ Another intriguing idea is that the I2a2*, which has not yet been found anywhere, could
have been driven to complete extinction by the combined effects of these catastrophies. ]

----------------------

Thriving on Great Britain

Over on the west bank - now England - Isles C was founded and thrived. 
Isles A split off from a remnant of Isles B about 3000 BC. Then Isles C2 and D 
split off from C about 2000 BC in Ireland.

Some 2,500 years after the split of C and D, the Anglo-Saxon invasion started 
conceivably containing some B from those few folks left on the continent 6,000 
years before. Certainly it seems this would have to be a minuscule contribution 
to the total gene pool of Isles B in Britain and Ireland and none at all to groups
A, C, and D.

--------------

This is speculation, logical deduction, and conjecture, but it seems to fit the 
currently known (to me) facts.

Thoughts? Poke holes in it so I can improve the hypothesis.

There is a map of this at: groups.ancestry.com/group/35649022/media/124835614
You will have to add the http// part since, as a new member, I can't post a URL 
nor a graphic.

----------


## Yorkie

> The timing of the founding of I2a2a and b is not something that I know 
> anything about so I have to accept Ken Nordtvedt's conclusions about that.
> It is the location that seems a problem to me.
> 
> ----------------
> 
> The founding and migration 
> 
> If I am reading his Warped Founders Tree correctly, I2a2a and I2a2b branched 
> ...


Interesting speculations. I think I2a2 got to northern Germany via LBK bands, and that the snp L161 was 'born' there. I2a2b-Isles was then carried to Britain via successive 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons probably account for some of the English and lowland Scots distribution. I have asked Bryan Sykes about this, and he is in agreement.

There are examples of subclades A, C and D on the continent, by the way, not just the oldest B subclade.

----------


## Kawa

> Please Dear Maciamo since when we Zazaki speakers became Turks? I have never seen a member of my family calling him self Turk. We speak a Northiranic language related to Parthian and are ethnicly kurdish.


I agree with you. I am a Kurmanci Kurd and assimilation is a Crime against humanity.

----------


## Kawa

Double Post

----------


## iapetoc

> I just thought that it would be a good idea to clarify the whole 
> Arian/Aryan thing. In case someone gets the mistaken impression since the words have the same sound.
> 
> The Aryans, as a tribe/group, were an ethnic/cultural subset of Iranians peoples. That makes them similar in that case to other Iranian-derived groups such as Scythians (and their offshoots), Medes, Mitanni, Persians possibly Yue-chi, and others that still exist today.
> 
> Arian, however, is a word that derives from a completely different source. Arius of Alexandria, a priest in Egypt in the days before the adoption on the Nicene Creed by the Church, began to teach that the Son was not of the same substance as the Father and therefore was created at some point. This differed quite a bit from what the Orthodox (both of East and West before their split) Christians said. 
> Arius’ teaching spread throughout much of the Church, it found a disproportionate amount of support by Eastern Bishops. It gained so many influential supporters that Jerome wrote “The world awoke to find itself Arian”.
> It was not until the major ecumenical council of Nicea, where the Emperor Constantine was even asked to sort of act as host, that the Church itself officially rejected Arianism. It continued to have support among some for some time after, especially among the Goths and other Germans, who had been converted to Christianity by Arian missionaries.(I can't remember the missionaries' names and don't have time to look them up) Adherence to Arianism was to be a factor in discord between ruler and subject in places such as Spain, which came to be ruled by Visigoths. Adoption of Orthodox/Catholicism was to be a source of unity and stronger foundation for the power of the Frankish Kings.
> 
> ...



Yes I have that story, the later mistake of Thoule hidden mansories, the Zaratustra approach of Νιτσε, 
the blond hair people were the Aryans etc, and the mistake of Swastika, which a west minor asian symbol to older Iranian/Aryan etc.

some wise quys even claim that Greeks are not ancient Greeks cause they are not blond,

----------


## Alan

Kawa thank you I appreciated it.

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## LeBrok

Sooner or later Kurds will have their own country. I think, first Kurds of Iraq will separate creating a new country, and eventually Turkey will have to agree for their Kurds secession.

I thought that Bush would have done this when invaded Iraq, but he didn't had guts or right vision.

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## Alan

lebrok, I hope so my friend.

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## Yorkie

I hope so too. The Kurds have bee pushed around and treated with contempt for far too long. They are a brave people who deserve better.

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## iapetoc

> Sooner or later Kurds will have their own country. I think, first Kurds of Iraq will separate creating a new country, and eventually Turkey will have to agree for their Kurds secession.
> 
> I thought that Bush would have done this when invaded Iraq, but he didn't had guts or right vision.


my antennas catch another story,

the Turkey federation that has Kurds and Azeris in 1 state with about 6-9 federal states 
something like Germany or usa 
a Turkish Union that may take parts of iraque and azerbaizan

----------


## Goga

And I heard a different story. A Turkish Union? I'm sorry that this topic is not about politics, but a Turkish Union? Why not a Kurdish Union? I catch here and there that Turkey is on brink to get divided. Like it was agreed according the Treaty of Sèvres.

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## Alan

I dont care what this "union" is going to be called. If the border between the Kurds is going to be opened and Kurds become at least the autonomic status of Scotland than I am fine with this. It doesent matter for me to which "Union" or "Kingdom" we belong.

----------


## iapetoc

> I dont care what this "union" is going to be called. If the border between the Kurds is going to be opened and Kurds become at least the autonomic status of Scotland than I am fine with this. It doesent matter for me to which "Union" or "Kingdom" we belong.



sorry goga will might tell me not to speak politics, and he may be right

my antennas catch a small parliament in Diyarbakir about Kurdish affairs and perhaps a small philologist Facultat , nothing more, at least for present,
also enter of azeris in a union like russia -bellaruss, 
and that is rumors, no official no proven, nothing serius, 
about the independence of Kurds, I hope every one gets the 'air' and land so not his ID to be lost,
the rest are for big sharks,

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## Knovas

I'll be glad if Kurds get independence for them. I don't know how things are actually for this, but since they have national conscience, ¿why not?

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## barbarian

in my opinion, there will be a kurdish country having some lands from both turkey and ıraq (iran and syria are questionable) because;

kurds want thier own country, and they work hard for it.
turkish ppl also dont want to live with kurds anymore

it is too sad that this new child will born with the help of ultra democratic US. of course, the increasing presence of petrol in futures kurdistan is just a coincidence.

----------


## Alan

> in my opinion, there will be a kurdish country having some lands from both turkey and ıraq (iran and syria are questionable) because;
> 
> kurds want thier own country, and they work hard for it.
> turkish ppl also dont want to live with kurds anymore
> 
> it is too sad that this new child will born with the help of ultra democratic US. of course, the increasing presence of petrol in futures kurdistan is just a coincidence.


Actually I am very convinced about that kurdish lands in Iran will belong to it too. Just see the recent political issues. However I don´t know about Syria because it is a rather small part.

If Turks really dont want to live with Kurds, I am fine with this. Better be "good neighbors " than a "big bad family" where both sites are hating each other.

----------


## iapetoc

> in my opinion, there will be a kurdish country having some lands from both turkey and ıraq (iran and syria are questionable) because;
> 
> kurds want thier own country, and they work hard for it.
> turkish ppl also dont want to live with kurds anymore
> 
> it is too sad that this new child will born with the help of ultra democratic US. of course, the increasing presence of petrol in futures kurdistan is just a coincidence.



it is not only the Kurds, 
about 6-9 parliaments are about to be in Turkey, 
under a big 1 in Ankara


turkey is about to be the super power again in region,
in hat case needs all population united 
so it is gonna give some 'freedoms' to pomaks kurds armenians etc 
under a supervision of Ankara, 
something like USA or Germany

----------


## barbarian

> it is not only the Kurds, 
> about 6-9 parliaments are about to be in Turkey, 
> under a big 1 in Ankara
> 
> 
> turkey is about to be the super power again in region,
> in hat case needs all population united 
> so it is gonna give some 'freedoms' to pomaks kurds armenians etc 
> under a supervision of Ankara, 
> something like USA or Germany


wow. could you tell me those 6-9 parliaments?

----------


## iapetoc

> wow. could you tell me those 6-9 parliaments?


you know them better than me,

it is already discused in turkey,

----------


## barbarian

> you know them better than me,
> 
> it is already discused in turkey,


No i dont know?
i am serious

----------


## iapetoc

> No i dont know?
> i am serious


ok soon you hear it,
I read it in a blog, based on older post in an NY magazine, 

edirne erzerum ankara polis diyabakir attaleia-myrsina, don't remember rest


Nothing is official, just antennas, means journalistic rumors,

----------


## how yes no 2

even according to Maciamo's conservative table I2a-Din in Serbia amounts to 34.5% (Mirabal's study shows 38.5% of I2a-Din and ~48% haplogroup I for Serbia)

however that is not clear from the map that Maciamo made...

this is Serbia


I want to see range between 30 and 40% for Serbia and not a hole that should be in Kosovo and north Albania





Another thing is hotspot in Croatia and Herzegovina...
thing is it is somewhat lower than on map... it is strongest in area of Pagania and in areas where Serbs lived in Croatia

e.g. look at Figure 4 in work from the work where your data for Croatia comes from

Review of Croatian Genetic Heritage as Revealed by
Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomal Lineages
Marijana Peričić, Lovorka Barać Lauc, Irena Martinović Klarić, Branka
Janićijević, Pavao Rudan

although the work is recently hidden from public display, it can still be found on internet....


compare I1b in Figure 4 with historic data - I1b is Serb settled areas in Croatia plus Pagania

this is map of Serb settlements in Croatia prior to wars according to official census

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republi...erbian_Krajina

according to only historical source talking about origin of people from Pagania they are in his time unbaptized Serbs

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false


on this map you can see where is Pagania - at least south part of west Herzegovina (hotspot of I2a-Din in Bosnia) plus islands Hvar and Korčula (hotspot of I2a-Din in Croatia) 




regarding 42% of I2a-Din in tables for Croatia, it comes from same work due to taking half samples from low populated islands of Pagania where I2a-Din is around 50-60% and half samples from rest of Croatia where it is much less.... it is very far from truth to have 42% as number characterizing Croatia as whole... it is like claiming Italy has 45% of I2a1 based on half samples from certain area of Sardinia and half from rest of Italy....

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## Maciamo

I have reworked a bit the map. I have added a new shade for >50% to bring out more contrast.

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## Knovas

sparkey has already reminded me this project and I thought it was good to post it here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

There only appear different samples with names and usually the countries listed, but it's not bad to get an idea. It's curious while checking I2a1 (I2a1a), that there are quite English + Irish participants listed, as well as people of likely Angloamerican descent. Together with Iberians they are the most numerous, wich seem to reinforce the strong I2a1a link with Western Europe, specially the Atlantic fringe. There is evident lack of French data in the project, since they should have a substantial percent of this subclade.

I think more research is required in that issue, specially between the British.

----------


## sparkey

> There only appear different samples with names and usually the countries listed, but it's not bad to get an idea. It's curious while checking I2a1 (I2a1a), that there are quite English + Irish participants listed, as well as people of likely Angloamerican descent. Together with Iberians they are the most numerous, wich seem to reinforce the strong I2a1a link with Western Europe, specially the Atlantic fringe. There is evident lack of French data in the project, since they should have a substantial percent of this subclade.


It's obviously sample bias with FTDNA Projects, though. FTDNA Projects are always people paying for their own test and then joining voluntarily. Obviously, this always skews the results in favor of British people and Anglo-Americans.

But I2a1a, as I have argued, was probably the most widespread Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and I don't doubt that it spread all over Western Europe by the Bronze Age, and probably had some minor expansions in such places. I bet that I2a1b2-Isles beat it in terms of frequency in British Grooved Ware Culture, though (and is a lot of what we see on Maciamo's map for modern I2a). Probably a non-trivial amount of I2a1a in Britain is Roman in origin.

----------


## Knovas

I think Romans were more likely plain I2a (old nomenclature) rather than I2a1a. So in my opinion the percent brought by them could perfectly be modest. I opt for a very ancient presence between the British, and I'd like to see if with more samples the percent gets increased. Actually the Eupedia spreadsheet still needs more examples of them.

----------


## sparkey

> I think Romans were more likely plain I2a (old nomenclature) rather than I2a1a. So in my opinion the percent brought by them could perfectly be modest. I opt for a very ancient presence between the British, and I'd like to see if with more samples the percent gets increased. Actually the Eupedia spreadsheet still needs more examples of them.


Plain I2a (old nomenclature) as in, new nomenclature, I2a1*-F, I2a1*-Rassette, I2a1*-Tibor? The super rare ones? We don't find a lot of I2a1* nowadays, and I would expect an expansion rather than a tight bottleneck if the Romans carried a certain subclade.

I'm unsure of the percentage of Neolithic vs. Roman I2a1a in the British, but if there are multiple sources, I suspect that those are the two. It would seem to fit more poorly with the other migrations into Britain, other than maybe the Beakers, who are still a mystery to me.

----------


## Knovas

Because of the "Romanization" practise one can expect lots of possibilities. The genetic impact out of Italy they had, it's certainly especulation when try to fix it aproximately. We can't deny a very strong cultural influence though, it's what precisely can cause more confusion while thinking that in genetic terms was also important. Not necessarily.

----------


## Knovas

Here is a little work by Bernie Cullen centered in what 23andme calls I2a1*

http://cullengene.blogspot.com/2011/...-m26-tree.html

In my case (as most others), it's impossible to distinguish the exact subclade because I have a T in both rs2538852 and rs2350606, and the rest of the SNP's are not tested by 23andme.

----------


## sparkey

> Here is a little work by Bernie Cullen centered in what 23andme calls I2a1*
> 
> http://cullengene.blogspot.com/2011/...-m26-tree.html
> 
> In my case (as most others), it's impossible to distinguish the exact subclade because I have a T in both rs2538852 and rs2350606, and the rest of the SNP's are not tested by 23andme.


Thanks for this link, I just realized that I'm in error putting I2a1a* (the L160- group) in my Paleolithic Remnants map near Navarre with the others. I think I was confusing those who have not tested L160 with those who have tested negative for L160. I'll update that when I get a chance. I guess the center of diversity of L160- ends up around Normandy.

----------


## Knovas

Ok sparkey, I'll have a look to the thread when it's ready. I'm sure you'll find the best aproximation ;)

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## Yaan

> Which study for Bulgarians shows over 40% of I2a?
> I've seen one and it gives 0% of I2a for them.


Studies give between 27-37% of I2a for Bulgarians! So the map need to be fixed! Visit Family Tree DNA,23and me, and see the only study in Bulgarians!!
I2a did not belong to Croatia, haplogorups did not belong to people! So in your funny fake study what haplogorups did we have??

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## Yaan

No replay from Joro, that try to privatize a haplogorup. Maybe he learned about genes and come to his senses. Cheers!

----------


## Eldritch

> Wiik gets an average 29.7% of I. He cites Balanovsky, Rootsi, Laitinen, Rosser and Nasidze, but doesn't give the detail of the calculation.
> 
> I checked each study, but only Rosser gives clear percentages of I for Belarus (34%) but the sample is small (n=41) and subclades aren't distinguished. It is the same study that found 42% of haplogroup I in the Bulgarians, with an even smaller sample size (only 24 individuals !).
> 
> I will lower the percentage of I2a for Belarus from 25% to 18% in the Y-DNA table. Balanovsky's average is about 18%. If it is less I don't know what other haplogroup to increase without contradicting other studies.


Here's the data about Belarus regarding I2a1b

----------


## Armatus

I disagree a bit with your percentages on the iberian peninsula. Iberian Roots with a sample size of more than 2400 has listed the following:
Navarre (Spain): 9.09%
Aragon (Spain): 5.33%
Catalonia (Spain): 2.05%
Basque Country (Spain): 1.84%
Andalucia (Spain): 0.72%
Galicia (Spain): 0.68%
Castille y Leon (Spain): 0.63%
All others (Spain) : <0.5%
Spain (Total): 1.21% (!)
Azores (Portugal): 8.16% (!)
Vila-Real (Portugal): 4.76%
Evora (Portugal): 3.70%
Viseu (Portugal): 3.13%
Santarem (Portugal): 2.98%
Leiria (Portugal): 2.78%
Braganca (Portugal): 2.56%
Aveiro (Portugal): 1.75%
Braga (Portugal): 1.52%
Lisboa (Portugal): 1.15%
All others (Portugal): <1%

Seems like I2a tends too be more on the Atlantic Side than on the Mediterranean Side of Iberia. 
All data is from iberianroots dot com

----------


## Maciamo

> I disagree a bit with your percentages on the iberian peninsula. Iberian Roots with a sample size of more than 2400 has listed the following:
> Navarre (Spain): 9.09%
> Aragon (Spain): 5.33%
> Catalonia (Spain): 2.05%
> Basque Country (Spain): 1.84%
> Andalucia (Spain): 0.72%
> Galicia (Spain): 0.68%
> Castille y Leon (Spain): 0.63%
> All others (Spain) : <0.5%
> ...


You are right, there is too much I2a1 in Andalusia and Galicia. I will revise that now. 

However, many of the percentages listed by Iberian roots contradict those of scientific papers. 

The percentage for Andalusia cannot be 0.72% when Adams et al. (n=168) found 2.5%, Flores et al. (n=258) found 3.2%, and Rootsi et al (n=103) found at least 1% (+2.9% of unidentified I*). That's a sample size of 529, against 276 for Iberian roots. 

I2a1 cannot be 0.63% in Castille, when Adams + Flores have 7x I2a1 out of 213 samples (3.3%).

And finally, how could there be only 1.84% of I2a1 in the Basque country when Adams et al. (n=116) found 6.9%, Rootsi et al. (n=100) found 6%, Flores et al (n=45) found 4.4%, and Young et al. (n=126) found 2.4%. That's a total of 387 against 327 for Iberian roots.

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## mani

The Instituto Nacional de Estadistica of Spain tell us
that the male population was on 01.01.2012:

23.298.356 total male in Spain

4,180,285 male in Adalucia

1,261,141 male Castilla y Leon

1,069,648 male Castilla – La Mancha

1,070,438 male Pais Vasco

etc.

Do you really think the percentages of Iberian roots and the other mentioned scientific papers are representative? 

I think, the samples sizes are too few for a good statistic and it represent only one part of the population. 

For a representative statistic you need a good miscellaneous of the population and more samples. For instance:

100.000 of the male Pais Vasco or so?

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## matbir

Maciamo what study shows lower then 10% frequency of I2a1 in central Ukraine?

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## MOESAN

> The Instituto Nacional de Estadistica of Spain tell us
> that the male population was on 01.01.2012:
> 
> 23.298.356 total male in Spain
> 
> 4,180,285 male in Adalucia
> 
> 1,261,141 male Castilla y Leon
> 
> ...



_
100000 Basques??? My personal experience tells me we don't need a so huge sample to have representative enough percentages - more restricted but more numerous areas studied are of better use than a huge global or to roughly regional sample - no offense -
but it is true, the rarest a type in a sample, the bigger the risk of "statistical drift"; so what would be sufficient in Iberia concerning Y-R1b scores, could be unsufficient for rarest HGs or 'subHGs'
good afternoon_

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## Armatus

> You are right, there is too much I2a1 in Andalusia and Galicia. I will revise that now. 
> 
> However, many of the percentages listed by Iberian roots contradict those of scientific papers. 
> 
> The percentage for Andalusia cannot be 0.72% when Adams et al. (n=168) found 2.5%, Flores et al. (n=258) found 3.2%, and Rootsi et al (n=103) found at least 1% (+2.9% of unidentified I*). That's a sample size of 529, against 276 for Iberian roots. 
> 
> I2a1 cannot be 0.63% in Castille, when Adams + Flores have 7x I2a1 out of 213 samples (3.3%).
> 
> And finally, how could there be only 1.84% of I2a1 in the Basque country when Adams et al. (n=116) found 6.9%, Rootsi et al. (n=100) found 6%, Flores et al (n=45) found 4.4%, and Young et al. (n=126) found 2.4%. That's a total of 387 against 327 for Iberian roots.


You are right in a way, but especially for Portugal it's helpful in my opinion. I'd suggest using the weighted average for Spain:
Andalusia: (n=805) : 1,92%
Castile: (n=373) : 2,15%
Basque Co.: (n=714) : 3,50 %

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## mani

I think, it is better to test a good mix of regional samples (100.000 is always better than 387 or 529) and then add the results of the regions together.

Why should we exclude the rarest haplogroups, when we like to find out the percentages of a region? When you test 100.000 samples you have better results for the rare haplogroups and the percentage of „R“ will be a little bit or more lower. 

In any case, only 387 or 327 samples are never representative for a population of 1.000.000 male, because we can never have a good mix with so few samples. 

The proof is: The percentages of the scientific papers are too different and inexact (and also the Iberian roots).


The question is: How many samples do we really need for a good Y-DNA statistic in proportion to the number of males in a population?

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## Belmonde

Is there already any I2a1b subclade found in Kurds or it is a suggestion on the map? I know only for I2a2.

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