# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  E1b1b1 and J2 in Balkans and Italy

## Fire Haired14

*I'm going to use this thread to post information I find on E1b1b1-M35 and J2-M410 in Italy/Balkans in the future.* 

I'm thinking of making a Y DNA blog like I did for mtDNA, so I've been looking at Y DNA studies. The results for Italy and Balkans are interesting because both share high frequencies of E1b1b1-M35 and J2-M410 which are the primary lineages of West Asia. 

Italy and Balkans are unlike any-other region in Europe because of E1b and J2. In all other regions in Europe post-Neolithic founder effect-lineages dominate: R1b-L151 in West Europe, I1/R1a-Z284/R1b-U106 in Scandinavia, R1a-Z282 and I2a1b2 in East Europe, N1c1 in Far East Europe. 

What's the relation between Italy/Balkan and West Asian J/E1b? Data I've looked at so far prove most Italy/Balkan E1b belong to the same lineage as most other European E1b but not West Asian. This means most Italy/Balkan split a very long time ago from West Asian E1b. My guess is the split occurred in the Neolithic or earlier(Mesolithic?). Maciamo has a theorizes E1b-V13 was picked up by Neolithic farmers from West Asia and is of pre-Neolithic origin in Mediterranean Europe. 

J2 in Italy and the Balkans is a little differnt, because most Balkan J2 is J2b. I haven't found any high resolution J2 data, and so don't have much to say about possible origins. My guess is most arrived from West Asia after the Neolithic.

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## Maciamo

E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.

Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .

Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.

One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.

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## Trojet

...........

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## Trojet

Great idea! I would also like to add that in the Balkans the vast majority of E1b belongs to V13, while the most represented J2 subclade seems to be J2b2-L283. This is especially true for the Albanian speaking areas, where I have noticed that, contrary to what has been said before, V13 seems to be pretty diverse based on Y37 haplotypes from the results we have in our FTDNA project thus far.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oodlines/about

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## Sigfrido

Low diversity of J2 and E1b1b in the Balkans is the results of quite recent founder effect. Italy has a bigger diversity of those haplotypes so it's logical to think that they entered in the Italy during the mesolitich and later spread to the Balkans in the neolitich, hence the founder effect and the lower diversity. This was dimostrated by Trombetta et al 2015.

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## Sigfrido

> E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.


V65 has been found only in Sardinia and in Sicily, while E-M81 is much commoner in the Balkans, France and Iberia than in Italy.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...-DNA.shtml#M81 


Albanians are similar to Jews or North Caucasians: a very inbred bunch with low haplotype diversity due to a very recent founder effect.

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## Trojet

> Albanians are similar to Jews or North Caucasians: a very inbred bunch with low haplotype diversity due to a very recent founder effect.


*Obviously, you seem to have something against Albanians* and you will choose to ignore any meaningful data. Show me proof when when these "recent" founder effects happened among Albanians.

This is the facts. Albanians are overwhelmingly represented by Balkan haplogroups, such as E-V13, J2b2, and R1b Balkan Cluster. Now how would that be a "recent" founded effect when these haplogroups diversified in or around the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age. I guess Albanians migrated from the Balkans to the Balkans by your logic. Show me data, not ignorance.

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## bicicleur

> Great idea! I would also like to add that in the Balkans the vast majority of E1b belongs to V13, while the most represented J2 subclade seems to be J2b2-L283. This is especially true for the Albanian speaking areas, where I have noticed that, contrary to what has been said before, V13 seems to be pretty diverse based on Y37 haplotypes from the results we have in our FTDNA project thus far.
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...oodlines/about


TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?

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## DuPidh

> *Obviously, you seem to have something against Albanians* and you will choose to ignore any meaningful data. Show me proof when when these "recent" founder effects happened among Albanians.
> 
> This is the facts. Albanians are overwhelmingly represented by Balkan haplogroups, such as E-V13, J2b2, and R1b Balkan Cluster. Now how would that be a "recent" founded effect when these haplogroups diversified in or around the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age. I guess Albanians migrated from the Balkans to the Balkans by your logic. Show me data, not ignorance.



Its a Serb. Don't look at the avatar! Ignore his posts.

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## Angela

Fire-Haired, where did you get the idea that yDna "E" is only a factor in Italy and the Balkans? if you're going to be looking at yDna "E" and "J" in Europe I think you should extend your scope to include Spain and Portugal, otherwise you won't have the full story.




(I don't know whether these maps have been updated since 2013.)
I'd be sure to take a look at the two Boattini studies, and as mentioned above, the Trombetta 2015 paper, but if you want your tables to be accurate there are many studies on the issue. (It's important to actually read the Trombetta paper, and the others for that matter. Just listing the varieties doesn't go all that far in analyzing the data.)

Boattini et al:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

This is actually Sarno et al, but Boattini is one of the authors:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e-0096074-t001

(One needs to be mindful that these are small samples so it wouldn't do to conclude, for example, that a large number of E-M81 people settled in Emilia-Romagna. One also has to remember that these clades came at different times from different places, and some of them are very minor in terms of frequency.)

Trombetta et al:
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/7/1940.full

The Boattini papers were discussed here, and there's some good analysis if I say so myself. :)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29

Of course, all of this analysis was before the discovery of J2 and E-V13 in the Neolithic Balkans 4700 BC, or J2 in a Bronze Age warrior, which makes us look very prescient indeed. :) 

(It's true that E-V13 experienced a major expansion in the late Bronze Age, and some of the E-V13 in Liguria, for example, could be attributable to trading contacts with Greece. However, I still think it's possible some dates back to the Neolithic. We need some very detailed resolution of these "E" clades similar to what has been done for R1b.)

I can't find a thread related to Trombetta et al 2015. Surely we discussed it?

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## Trojet

> TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?


Totally agree. J2b2-L283 is showing expansion at 4300 ybp too, most likely somewhere in the Balkans as well where its greatest diversity and frequency is:
www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

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## Sigfrido

Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL

By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...

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## bicicleur

> Totally agree. J2b2-L283 is showing expansion at 4300 ybp too, most likely somewhere in the Balkans as well where its greatest diversity and frequency is:
> www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/


that would be the main subclade J-Z597 then ?

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## Trojet

> that would be the main subclade J-Z597 then ?


If we look at the J-L283 (J2b2a) as a whole, it actually diversified 9700 ybp. The problem is that J-L283* has so far only been found in a sample in Netherlands and one in Sardinia. Similarly J-Z600* ,TMRCA 5200 ybp, has so far only been found in Sardinia and Tuscany. As you pointed out, in the Balkans we find subclades of J-Z597, TMRCA 4300 ybp. 

I think the reason why we are missing those earlier branches of J2b2-L283 from the Balkans is because of either not enough samples from the Balkans, or they only survived in Sardinia/Tuscany ond one in Netherlands. Nonetheless, in the Balkans J2b2 is showing expansion at 4300 ybp starting with J-Z597, Z628 according to present data.
www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1

www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

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## Maleth

> Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL
> 
> By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...


The greater diversity of E-78 in Italy is much more probable for Rome being the New York of the ancient world with the many Immigrants it attracted from the surrounding world. Bicicleur statement is much more probable "_TMRCA for E-V13 is estimated 4300 years, that is a bronze age expansion somewhere in the Balkans, possibly some proto- Illyrians, Thracians & Myceneans ?"_

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## DuPidh

> Albanians are older than Dinosaurs. LoL
> 
> By the way Italy has the greatest diversity of E-M78 while the Balkans has only the V13 subclade. It's obvious that the E1b1b arrived in Albania from the other side of the Adriatic sea quite recently and went through a huge founder effect...



There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.
Hanibal conquered Italy in Roman time. Carthagene was Hannibal's home town. Many of his fighters did not make it back to north Africa. There is a more recent conquest of Sicily from Arabs. Sicilians are all over Italy and the New World. There was a large Jewish immigration since Roman time in Italy. There was a large number of slaves and artisans imported from Rome mainly from Syria to build their Engineering works. If you check Italy's J1 haplogroup will notice that is very large in Italy. Its because of Roman dealing with Mediterranean world. Also Rome Imported all knowledgeable Greeks who new arts and sciences. Italy has a large old Greek settlements who did not stay still but moved over time all over Italy. Italy has old Albanian settlements and new one as well. Italy interacted heavy with Spaniards and French, people with large amounts of E
So of course E will be more diverse because of these population moves and complex history.
But since you are not Italian have no knowledge of these facts. You better look at the haplogroup Q of your people.
Albanians on the other hand had zero interaction with North Africa and MEditerranian so of course E is not that diverse.

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## Maleth

> There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
> But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.


Depend which E's. You would find that Berber E-M81, Balkan E-V13 and other E's have a completely different migration story and time spans. E-M81 is probable to enter Europe direct from North Africa especially through the straights of Gibraltar even from the Neolithic. However the popular present theory is E-V13 might know its origins through the east or Balkan proper.

This has already been extensivly discussed on this thread http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

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## Sigfrido

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## Sigfrido

Albanians were a center of world for much longer than the Italians, because they were part of the Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman empires for like 99% of their history.

I am just quoting Trombetta et al which confirms that the E-V13 migrated in the Balkans from Italy, where the GREATEST DIVERSITY OF E-M78 is found. 

You either post a peer reviewed DNA paper to support your blabbling about "roman slaves" or just shut up.

Plus the E-V65 is only found in Sardinia and in Sicily, while Albania has more E-M81 than 90% of mainland Italy.

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## Angela

> There are hints that E could have landed first in Italy.
> But don't forget Italy has a very complex history with North Africa.
> Hanibal conquered Italy in Roman time. Carthagene was Hannibal's home town. Many of his fighters did not make it back to north Africa. There is a more recent conquest of Sicily from Arabs. Sicilians are all over Italy and the New World. There was a large Jewish immigration since Roman time in Italy. There was a large number of slaves and artisans imported from Rome mainly from Syria to build their Engineering works. If you check Italy's J1 haplogroup will notice that is very large in Italy. Its because of Roman dealing with Mediterranean world. Also Rome Imported all knowledgeable Greeks who new arts and sciences. Italy has a large old Greek settlements who did not stay still but moved over time all over Italy. Italy has old Albanian settlements and new one as well. Italy interacted heavy with Spaniards and French, people with large amounts of E
> So of course E will be more diverse because of these population moves and complex history.
> But since you are not Italian have no knowledge of these facts. You better look at the haplogroup Q of your people.
> Albanians on the other hand had zero interaction with North Africa and MEditerranian so of course E is not that diverse.


Let's try not to live up to our avatar names, shall we? 

Everybody's y lines came from somewhere else. The more I see of both modern and ancient dna results the more I'm starting to think that you're much better off looking at mtDna distributions than yDna distributions if you're interested in the autosomal signature of a people.

Be that as it may, if we're going to talk about the "E" lines in Europe, all indications are that it may have been part of the Neolithic, which largely arrived in Europe via the _Mediterranean Sea_. Even if it or E-M78 by some chance arrived in Europe (Italy or Balkans) directly from North Africa, it would still have arrived via the _Mediterranean Sea_. 

It's also a mistake to think that every passing army or occupation force necessarily leaves a big mark even on yDna distributions, much less autosomal dna. Don't we know better than this after the papers of the last couple of years? Or are we going to go back to trying to find Ottoman lineages in the Balkans.

I would also suggest that you review some of the historical events to which you allude. I'm not going to correct all your mistakes, but just for one, many of Hannibal's troops were Iberian, Ligurian and on and on by the time he got to southern Italy. There's also no way that you could know who stayed and who left anywhere, after any occupation, unless you happen to have a time machine handy?

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## Maleth

> Albanians were a center of world for much longer than the Italians, because they were part of the Greek-Byzantine-Ottoman empires for like 99% of their history.


Prior to Rome it was Athens not Albania to hold the centre of culture and commerce.




> I am just quoting Trombetta et al which confirms that the E-V13 migrated in the Balkans from Italy, where the GREATEST DIVERSITY OF E-M78 is found. 
> 
> You either post a peer reviewed DNA paper to support your blabbling about "roman slaves" or just shut up.


Its really not necessary to be nasty to debate and discuss something. It just shows frustration and insecurity nothing else. Can you quote where Trombetta et al confirms that E-V13 migrated to the Balkans from Italy? - Is this what you are referring to? http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...18.short?rss=1

_The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 ka; 95% CI: 5.6–10.8 ka) is consistent with a previous hypothesis about a post-Neolithic expansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al. 2004, 2007). Finally, the young TMRCA (3.5 ka; 95% CI: 1.7–5.9 ka) for the node separating the sequenced (former) E-M35* and E-M293 samples suggests a TMRCA for the M293 variant more recent than previously hypothesized using an STR-based dating (11.4 ka; Henn et al. [2008]__)_.

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## Sigfrido

Albania was part of various Turkish-Greek empires for 99% of its history. Of course Albanians did mix with every kind of slaves and foreigners from around the mediterranean.

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## DuPidh

> Let's try not to live up to our avatar names, shall we? 
> 
> Everybody's y lines came from somewhere else. The more I see of both modern and ancient dna results the more I'm starting to think that you're much better off looking at mtDna distributions than yDna distributions if you're interested in the autosomal signature of a people.
> 
> Be that as it may, if we're going to talk about the "E" lines in Europe, all indications are that it may have been part of the Neolithic, which largely arrived in Europe via the _Mediterranean Sea_. Even if it or E-M78 by some chance arrived in Europe (Italy or Balkans) directly from North Africa, it would still have arrived via the _Mediterranean Sea_. 
> 
> It's also a mistake to think that every passing army or occupation force necessarily leaves a big mark even on yDna distributions, much less autosomal dna. Don't we know better than this after the papers of the last couple of years? Or are we going to go back to trying to find Ottoman lineages in the Balkans.
> 
> I would also suggest that you review some of the historical events to which you allude. I'm not going to correct all your mistakes, but just for one, many of Hannibal's troops were Iberian, Ligurian and on and on by the time he got to southern Italy. There's also no way that you could know who stayed and who left anywhere, after any occupation, unless you happen to have a time machine handy?


The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint

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## Sigfrido

> Prior to Rome it was Athens not Albania to hold the centre of culture and commerce.Its really not necessary to be nasty to debate and discuss something. It just shows frustration and insecurity nothing else. Can you quote where Trombetta et al confirms that E-V13 migrated to the Balkans from Italy? - Is this what you are referring to? http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...18.short?rss=1


Trombetta et al claimed that E-M35* entered in Southern Europe directly from North Africa. E-V13 didn't come from the Middle East, so either it appeared in Italy or in the Balkans and since E-M78, the daughter clade of E-M35, has the highest diversity in Italy, it must have come from there.

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## Yaan

> E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.
> 
> Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .
> 
> Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.
> 
> One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.


In Bulgaria most of our E is E-V13! 

Most of Bulgarian J2 is J2a, not J2b!

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## Sigfrido

> The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
> But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
> Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint



ROFL


You must be kidding. Albanians have much more NORTH AFRICAN E-M81 than Italians, dude.

Italians have more E-M78 diversity and E-V13 IS A DAUGHTER CLADE OF IT.

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## Shetop

> This means most Italy/Balkan split a very long time ago from West Asian E1b. My guess is the split occurred in the Neolithic or earlier(Mesolithic?). Maciamo has a theorizes E1b-V13 was picked up by Neolithic farmers from West Asia and is of pre-Neolithic origin in Mediterranean Europe.


1. There is ancient E-V13 7000 years old from Iberia.
2. Each European E1b1b subclade is a different story, and there are several of them as Maciamo already wrote (though I don't understand why does he claim there is some other most common E1b1b subclade in Italy beside E-V13). You can't apply the same theory on more than one of those E1b1b subclades.
3. It has been a stereotype for a long time that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia but for me personally there is not one credible argument to support that. My view is that E-V13 TMRCA had lived in Europe and that the haplogroup expanded from inside Europe.
4. I don't understand why did you put E1b to West Asia.

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## Fire Haired14

> E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.
> 
> Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .
> 
> Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.
> 
> One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.


Thanks for the info. So, V13 and J2b2 look like early arrivals in Balkans. What about E1b1b and J2 in other West Eurasians? Is there any high resolution J2a data?




> 1. There is ancient E-V13 7000 years old from Iberia.
> 2. Each European E1b1b subclade is a different story, and there are several of them as Maciamo already wrote (though I don't understand why does he claim there is some other most common E1b1b subclade in Italy beside E-V13). You can't apply the same theory on more than one of those E1b1b subclades.
> 3. It has been a stereotype for a long time that E-V13 entered Europe from Anatolia but for me personally there is not one credible argument to support that. My view is that E-V13 TMRCA had lived in Europe and that the haplogroup expanded from inside Europe.
> 4. I don't understand why did you put E1b to West Asia.


There's E1b-V13 from Neolithic Spain and E1b-M78 from Neolithic Hungary, but they were unpopular. We have dozens of Neolithic Y DNAs and only 3 are E1b-M78. Today they're more popular in Italy and Balkans. We need ancient DNA from south and east of Hungary or lots of high resolution modern data.

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## Shetop

> There's E1b-V13 from Neolithic Spain and E1b-M78 from Neolithic Hungary, but they were unpopular. We have dozens of Neolithic Y DNAs and only 3 are E1b-M78. Today they're more popular in Italy and Balkans. We need ancient DNA from south and east of Hungary or lots of high resolution modern data.


We also have a lot of Neolithic DNA from Anatolia and not one of them was E1b1b.

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## Maleth

> Trombetta et al claimed that E-M35* entered in Southern Europe directly from North Africa. E-V13 didn't come from the Middle East, so either it appeared in Italy or in the Balkans and since E-M78, the daughter clade of E-M35, has the highest diversity in Italy, it must have come from there.


Please, just quote were he says that



_Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]_

_

Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with onlyMesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withtheNeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
Incontrast to Battaglia, Crucianiet al. (2007)tentatively suggested (i) a different point where the V13 mutationhappened on its way from Egypt to the Balkans via the Middle East,and (ii) a later dispersal time.



Morerecently, Lacanet al. (2011)announced that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in aSpanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens testedfrom the same site were inhaplogroupG2a,which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not themodern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recentevents, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried byearly farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the WesternMediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age. This supports theproposals of Battaglia et al. rather than Cruciani et al. at leastconcerning earliest European dispersals, but E-V13 may have dispersedmore than once. Even more recent than the Bronze Age, it has alsobeen proposed that modern E-V13's modern distribution in Europe is atleast partly caused by Roman era movements of people.[86] (Seebelow.) 


Afteran initial focus upon E1b1b as a Neolithic marker, a more recentstudy in January 2010, looked at Y haplogroup R1b1b, which is muchmore common in WesternEurope.Mark Jobling said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosomelineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows agradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100%frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed,how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is."The results suggested that the lineage R1b1b2(R-M269),like E1b1b or J lineages,spread together with farming from the Near East. Dr PatriciaBalaresque added: "In total, this means that more than 80% ofEuropean Y chromosomes descend from incoming farmers. In contrast,most maternal genetic lineages seem to descend from hunter-gatherers.To us, this suggests a reproductive advantage for farming males overindigenous hunter-gatherer males during the switch from hunting andgathering, to farming" 

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

_National Geographic:- Haplogroup E1b1b East Africa and Western Eurasia - e-m215 has spread among North and East African Populations, to West Asiaand eventually into Europe end quote. 
_
_Aegean Immigration to the southern Levant:The Y chromosome patterns of contemporary populations offers a lens throughwhich to explore the possible demographic effects of the Iron Age I Philistines in the farsouthern coastal Levant. Apart from the J2a patterns listed above, previous studies showan Aegean focus for two non-J Y lineages: E-V13 and G-M527/L13. E-V13 has beenshown to have originated most probably in the Balkans circa 9000 BCE as a Mesolithicmarker, while G-M527/L13 arose somewhat later during the Late Neolithic Era in coastalWestern Anatolia (Battaglia et al. 2008; Rootsi et al. 2012). Both lineages track Greekcolonization events from present day Marseilles/Provence (Greek colony of Massalia) toGreek colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (King et al. 2011; Rootsi et al. 2012). We alsofind E-V13 and G-M527 among contemporary Palestinians and Druze from Israel (table1). This result suggests that E-V13 and G-M527 may track the immigration of Aegean........

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/...biol_preprints
_

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## Sigfrido

Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.

----------


## Fire Haired14

In my mind nothing is clear, except Neolithic or earlier arrival of E-V13. I doubt there's sufficient modern data that can clear things up. Ancient DNA from Central Europe and Spain doesn't tell us what was going on in Italy and Balkans from 6000 to 1000 BC. There will be new data coming from Greece ranging Mesolithic to Bronze age though. G2a peaks in Italy and south Balkans, and I'm thinking E-V13 and some J2 lineages might be from the Neolithic to. Then some arrived later and that most of the rest of their Y DNA is Bronze age IE.

BTW: Bronze age Hungary BR2 had J2a1 and Neolithic Anatolian had J2a. I'm pretty sure J2a1 is a popular form of J2 today.

----------


## Angela

> The majority of E lineages are neolithic, I agree with that.Absolut Majority of E in Italy is E -v13 which is neolithic.
> But Rome reigned for 600 yrs in the Mediterranean basin. So you can't deny this interaction could be part of Diversity of E in Italy. It is estimated that the whole known world that Roman conquered was 70 million people at that time. Now the same world is about 800 million.
> Even if 100 soldiers of Hanibal stayed, they wold amount today to 12000. So, they have left their genetic imprint



As Maleth has pointed out, each "E" lineage in Europe has its own history and migration path. I've always been of the opinion that E-V13 probably arrived in the Neolithic, but an arrival in the Mesolithic is certainly possible. Maciamo has always been of that opinion. I'm sure that as more ancient dna is analyzed we'll get closer to an answer. I fail to see what it matters when it arrived, other than out of academic interest. 

I don't know when all the E-M81, which is present in Iberia, Italy, and the Balkans, by the way, arrived. I'm sure some of it arrived in the Medieval period but some of it may be even earlier in the Roman period or even before that. Any learned speculations on who brought it to the Balkans?

Please note I said "learned speculations". We don't pay much attention here to speculations of the type, "well, let's start with 100 of Hannibal's soldiers who survived and decided to "stay" (all of whom were apparently E-M81?), and I know none of them daughtered out, or died without issue, and I did the math and there must be about 12,000 men in Italy right now who are descended from them."

I'll say it politely. Wild, unverifiable speculations carry no weight here.

@Sigfrido,
Keep it civil or there will be consequences.

----------


## Maleth

> Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.






"On the other hand, while there were apparently direct migrations from North Africa to Iberia andSouthern Italy (of people carrying E-V68*, E-V12, E-V22, and E-V65), the majority of E-M78 lineages found in Europe belong to the E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East, where it apparently originated, via the Balkans"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins

Now you are free to believe whatever tickels your fancy

----------


## Shetop

> "E-V13 sub-clade which appears to have entered Europe at some time undeterminded from the Near East"


Any argument for that?

----------


## hrvat22

> Where he says what? The paper claims that the E-M35 arrived in Europe from North Africa and not from the middle east. E-V13 is the daughter clade of E-M78 which has the biggest diversity in Italy. So E-M35 from North Africa arrived in Italy, mutated in E-M78 and then mutated to E-V13 and migrated to the Balkans. That's the only logical explanation with the new data.



It would mean that Africans actually came from Africa to Italy and from Italy back to North Africa and from North Africa to Balkans. . it is not possible...too much water barriers 14,000 years ago...

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M78/

Kenyans come from Italy ..hahaha

----------


## Sigfrido

> It would mean that Africans actually came from Africa to Italy and from Italy back to North Africa and from North Africa to Balkans. . it is not possible...too much water barriers 14,000 years ago...http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M78/Kenyans come from Italy ..hahaha


My mistake.Both E-M78 and E-M35 migrated from Africa to Italy, but they were already present in Africa.

----------


## Sigfrido

Maleth stop quoting stuff from 2004.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

"It has usually been assumed among academics that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic, and that the high frequency of E-V13 was caused by a founder effect among the colonisers. This theory has it that E1b1b people were associated with the development of Neolithic lifestyle and the advent of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and its earliest diffusion to Southeast Europe (Thessalian Neolithic) and Mediterranean Europe (Cardium Pottery culture). The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). However, since E1b1b has not been found in any of the various Neolithic sites from the Balkans and Central Europe, it is more likely that the Catalan E-V13 individual was descended from Mediterranean Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13)."

----------


## hrvat22

> My mistake.Both E-M78 and E-M35 migrated from Africa to Italy, but they were already present in Africa.



It is possible that someone as a slave or soldier came to Italy with E-M78 and E-M35..?



We have to wait results for Italian E1b and then we'll be smarter ... for now is only one Italian with E-M78 on the public database..

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

----------


## Sigfrido

> It is possible that someone as a slave or soldier came to Italy with E-M78 and E-M35..?We have to wait results for Italian E1b and then we'll be smarter ... for now is only one Italian with E-M78 on the public database..https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap


LOL Your country was controlled by Gypsies, Avars, Mongols, Cumans, proto Magyars, Ottoman Turks.... and God knows how many others.

----------


## hrvat22

> LOL Your country was controlled by Gypsies, Avars, Mongols, Cumans, proto Magyars, Ottoman Turks.... and God knows how many others.


hahahaa..Croats beat Avars, Romans,Franks,
Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, Tartars, Venetians, Montenegrins, Germans, Italians and finally liberated from Hungarians...

----------


## Angela

What an edifying turn this conversation has taken.

----------


## Ike

Did you really doubt that it would not? :)

----------


## Maleth

> Maleth stop quoting stuff from 2004.




Wiki article is 2015 all the studies are trustworthy scientific studies that have also been quoted in trombetta et al most recent and not mere opinions. And you have not quoted were he specifically mentions that E-V13 entered via North Africa. 

Read Eupida (Maciamos) article well




> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
> 
> "*It has usually been assumed among academics*





> _(and still is)_ that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic, and that the high frequency of E-V13 was caused by a founder effect among the colonisers. *This theory has it* _(and still has it)_ that E1b1b people were associated with the development of Neolithic lifestyle and the advent of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and its earliest diffusion to Southeast Europe (Thessalian Neolithic) and Mediterranean Europe (Cardium Pottery culture). The only concrete evidence for this at the moment is the presence of the E-V13 subclade, commonest in the southern Balkans today, at a 7000-year old Neolithic site in north-east Spain, which was tested by Lacan et al (2011). *However, since E1b1b has not been found in any of the various Neolithic sites from the Balkans and Central Europe* _(since that time two E1b1b samples been found inThe cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC besides the fact that only at present there are some serious studies being undertaken in the Balkans so we will need time to get more resutls. Most studies have been conducted in cooler climates normally above the Alps)_, it is more likely that the Catalan E-V13 individual was descended from Mediterranean Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.*This alternate hypothesis*_ (just an alternate hypothesis does not mean fact but just another possible theory)_ that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans_(its highly likely the diversity of of E-M78 is due to Rome and the Roman empire and the huge amount of immigrants slaves that entered the city in its peak of prosperity, something that also a school child would know in their history lessons)_ (where nearly all E1b1b are V13)."


You know what? like Angela said it really does not matter if it entered via Aborigines territory or Siberia. I guess what people are interested in correct data and historical knowledge. With your style of writing one can easily understand you are not interested in any of this and enjoying fighting windmills. Apart from this I don't believe that cats can fly yet  :Grin: ......keep grasping at straws they might turn to ropes some day....enjoy

----------


## Maleth

> ROFL
> 
> 
> You must be kidding. Albanians have much more NORTH AFRICAN E-M81 than Italians, dude.
> 
> Italians have more E-M78 diversity and E-V13 IS A DAUGHTER CLADE OF IT.


?  :Useless:  :Grin: 

A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[111] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total (note that Albanians from other regions do not show quite as high a percentage of E1b1b):
*N*
*E-M78**
*E-V13*
*E-M81*
*E-M123*
*J2b*
*I1*
*I2a2*
*R1b*
*R1a*
*P*

114
1.75%
43.85%
0.90%
0.90%
16.70%
5.31%
2.65%
21.10%
4.42%
1.77%


A study by Battaglia et al in 2008[103] found the following haplogroup distributions among Albanians in Albania itself:
*N*
*E-M78**
*E-V13*
*G*
*I1*
*I2a1*
*I2b*
*J1*
*J2a*
*J2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*

55
1.8%
23.6%
1.8%
3.6%
14.5%
3.6%
3.6%
5.4%
14.5%
9.1%
18.2%


The same study by Battaglia et al (2008) also found the following distributions among Albanians in Macedonia:
*N*
*E-M78**
*E-V13*
*E-M123*
*G*
*I1*
*I2a*
*I2a1*
*I2a2*
*J1*
*J2a1b*
*J2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*

64
1.6%
34.4%
3.1%
1.6%
4.7%
1.6%
9.4%
1.6%
6.3%
1.6%
14.1%
1.6%
18.8%

----------


## Trojet

> ? 
> 
> A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[111] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total (note that Albanians from other regions do not show quite as high a percentage of E1b1b):
> *N*
> *E-M78**
> *E-V13*
> *E-M81*
> *E-M123*
> *J2b*
> ...


Maleth. I don't think he will accept this data. He will go back cherry pick and recycle the same old nonsense about Albanians.

----------


## Trojet

> What an edifying turn this conversation has taken.


Haven't you figured out us Balkan people by now lol  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Fire Haired14

Can't wait till ancient genomes from Greece is published. It'd be a discovery of the ages if a Yamnaya-type with R1b-Z2103 is found in supposed proto-Greeks.

----------


## Trojet

> Can't wait till ancient genomes from Greece is published. It'd be a discovery of the ages if a Yamnaya-type with R1b-Z2103 is found in supposed proto-Greeks.


Any idea when they are supposed to publish these results? I agree, it will be very interesting to see what they found as far as Y-DNA goes.

----------


## Angela

> [COLOR=#454545]
> 
> Wiki article is 2015 all the studies are trustworthy scientific studies that have also been quoted in trombetta et al most recent and not mere opinions. And you have not quoted were he specifically mentions that E-V13 entered via North Africa. 
> 
> Read Eupida (Maciamos) article well
> 
> 
> 
> You know what? like Angela said it really does not matter if it entered via Aborigines territory or Siberia. I guess what people are interested in correct data and historical knowledge. With your style of writing one can easily understand you are not interested in any of this and enjoying fighting windmills. Apart from this I don't believe that cats can fly yet ......keep grasping at straws they might turn to ropes some day....enjoy


There are people who are interested in population genetics as a discipline (usually academics) whom it behooves to try to be as objective as possible for the sake of their careers, there are people who are interested in exploring their ancestral lineages and the history of their people who by nature or training try to approach the material with honesty and integrity, and then there is the unfortunate underbelly of the population genetics world, which is made up of either ultra-nationalist or racist (sometimes the two go together) people who could care less about the objective reality and are only interested in manipulating the data or the interpretation of the data so as to make their own "group" superior by their distorted standards. 

You can add to that the fact that some men, particularly young men, treat every discussion as a duel for dominance over other men, and you can then get edifying conversations like the one on this thread. It's irritating and boring to have to read, like being a lunch room monitor in a boys' middle school, but there you have it. 

Very helpful summary of where the debate stands as to E-V13. I think ancient dna will give us more clarity, although even then there may be some ambiguity. As to the other clades of "E", there is even more ambiguity. There is indeed more diversity in Italy than in the Balkans. Is diversity an indication of "origin"? Perhaps, in some cases. Is diversity a sign of gene flow into an area? Sometimes, particularly if that place was a world power. There's also the fact that there has been gene flow back and forth along the Mediterranean, from Gibraltar to the eastern Med, for millennia, just as there has been gene flow back and forth across the north European plain and the steppe for millennia. I think it should now be clear that one can't explain the populating of Europe with neat, little, one directional arrows. 

So, I don't know. _No_ one knows; we're just speculating.

----------


## Fire Haired14

> Any idea when they are supposed to publish these results? I agree, it will be very interesting to see what they found as far as Y-DNA goes.


No. But some results have been told to the media and have been discussed in conferences over the last year. I'd expect the results to be published by fall 2016 or earlier. I'm not sure if genomes were sequenced or just mtDNA and Y DNA.

----------


## Maleth

> There are people who are interested in population genetics as a discipline (usually academics) whom it behooves to try to be as objective as possible for the sake of their careers, there are people who are interested in exploring their ancestral lineages and the history of their people who by nature or training try to approach the material with honesty and integrity, and then there is the unfortunate underbelly of the population genetics world, which is made up of either ultra-nationalist or racist (sometimes the two go together) people who could care less about the objective reality and are only interested in manipulating the data or the interpretation of the data so as to make their own "group" superior by their distorted standards. 
> 
> You can add to that the fact that some men, particularly young men, treat every discussion as a duel for dominance over other men, and you can then get edifying conversations like the one on this thread. It's irritating and boring to have to read, like being a lunch room monitor in a boys' middle school, but there you have it. 
> 
> Very helpful summary of where the debate stands as to E-V13. I think ancient dna will give us more clarity, although even then there may be some ambiguity. As to the other clades of "E", there is even more ambiguity. There is indeed more diversity in Italy than in the Balkans. Is diversity an indication of "origin"? Perhaps, in some cases. Is diversity a sign of gene flow into an area? Sometimes, particularly if that place was a world power. There's also the fact that there has been gene flow back and forth along the Mediterranean, from Gibraltar to the eastern Med, for millennia, just as there has been gene flow back and forth across the north European plain and the steppe for millennia. I think it should now be clear that one can't explain the populating of Europe with neat, little, one directional arrows. 
> 
> So, I don't know. _No_ one knows; we're just speculating.


I agree. I also believe genetics are also moving at a fast pace (although we always wish for it to move faster :)) Its not easy to get the puzzle together and we keep getting surprises, new time spans, hypothesis and theories. We have come a long way but we got an even longer way to go. Interesting times :)

----------


## bicicleur

> In my mind nothing is clear, except Neolithic or earlier arrival of E-V13.


even that isn't sure, as this conclusion of the individual in Avelaner Cave is made from STR analysis
not one SNP has been identified
the person in Avelaner Cave was related to E-V13 but not necesarily E-V13

----------


## Sigfrido

> Wiki article is 2015 all the studies are trustworthy scientific studies that have also been quoted in trombetta et al most recent and not mere opinions. And you have not quoted were he specifically mentions that E-V13 entered via North Africa. Read Eupida (Maciamos) article wellYou know what? like Angela said it really does not matter if it entered via Aborigines territory or Siberia. I guess what people are interested in correct data and historical knowledge. With your style of writing one can easily understand you are not interested in any of this and enjoying fighting windmills. Apart from this I don't believe that cats can fly yet ......keep grasping at straws they might turn to ropes some day....enjoy


So what? You are quoting Maciamo from 2011 or so. We now in 2015 know that E-M78 arrived in Europe directly from North Africa and not from the Middle East, so considering where the highest diversity of E-M78 is found, it is logical to assume that Balkaners got their E-V13 from Italy. I am talking about new data. Stop quoting stuff from 2010 or so.Also you can check the Eupedia maps of haplogroups and see that Albanians have much more E-M81 than Italians. Which de facto disproves the whole idea of merchants coming in Italy during the Roman Empire and crap.

----------


## Yetos

E-v13 is the enigma of Balkans,

somehow isolated from other E but with high densities sometimes, 
Italians combine it with some RNA and Herpes anex/resist anti and say that is palaiolithic
yet other Italians find that where it has high densities to be almost with Iron age,
 :Argue:   :Argue: 
no mark/data has been found yet from pre-history to antigue, and the closest is at minor Asia modern Turkey,

@ Meliteus
I am not a racist,  :Laugh:  :Laugh: 
simply it is an enigma that nucleotidio  :Wallbash: 

 :Cool 2: 

it will be more easy to search  :Spiderman: 's DNA

----------


## DuPidh

> So what? You are quoting Maciamo from 2011 or so. We now in 2015 know that E-M78 arrived in Europe directly from North Africa and not from the Middle East, so considering where the highest diversity of E-M78 is found, it is logical to assume that Balkaners got their E-V13 from Italy. I am talking about new data. Stop quoting stuff from 2010 or so.Also you can check the Eupedia maps of haplogroups and see that Albanians have much more E-M81 than Italians. Which de facto disproves the whole idea of merchants coming in Italy during the Roman Empire and crap.


Why don't you worry about Serb Q, O, N and dont forget E-m81. You think the E Serbia has is not from Africa?
The logic you are using to make your arguments proves that you have some Ghengis Khan connections? No?

----------


## LABERIA

*“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”*

― Mark Twain

----------


## Angela

I have just read every word of Trombetta et al* 2015.* I also went through all the supplementary info. There is *ONE* sentence that discusses anything related to E-M78 and E-V13.

"Within this clade, the posterior probability (0.97) strongly favors an eastern African placement for the origin of the E-M215 diversity, as previously suggested by Semino et al. (2004) and Gebremeskel and Ibrahim (2014), whereas a northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007)."

That's it. Everybody already knew that M78 probably arose in North Africa. The question is did it get to Europe during the Mesolithic directly from North Africa (to Italy) and then spread, or did it travel up through the Levant and then it (and the further downstream E-V13) came to Europe during the Neolithic. Both are perfectly possible. 

Trombetta et al 2015 doesn't address either of those questions. You therefore misrepresented the findings of the study. There is no new* proof* in support of your speculations. 

We are all entitled to our opinions about various papers, or how much weight we wish to attach to which study or type of analysis. However, there is a difference between that and the deliberate misrepresentation of data and/or the findings of a paper. That's a serious matter. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't do it deliberately, but be advised: don't do it again. There are consequences for deliberate misrepresentations.

----------


## Maleth

> E-v13 is the enigma of Balkans,
> 
> somehow isolated from other E but with high densities sometimes, 
> Italians combine it with some RNA and Herpes anex/resist anti and say that is* palaiolithic*
> yet other Italians find that where it has high densities to be almost with Iron age,
>  
> no mark/data has been found yet from pre-history to antigue, *and the closest is at minor Asia modern Turkey,
> *
> @ Meliteus
> ...


I dont see anything racist in what you stated.....try and explain what you just wrote to Sigrido  :Grin: , besides that he needs to become much more familiar between times spans of the creation of M-78 and later many other subgroups separated by thousands of years different climatic conditions and population densities and migration routes for different reasons which we can only vaguely assume.

----------


## Maleth

> So what? You are quoting Maciamo from 2011 or so.


It was you who quoted Maciamo, as if to prove something as fact..... look at the post before mine  :Rolleyes:   :Wary:  :Smile: .

----------


## Sigfrido

Dude you are looping. The highest diversity of E-M78 in Europe is found in Italy, France and Spain. E-V13 has been found in Neolitich Spain. Now it means that 100% European French mixed with Arab and Jewish slaves, while 50% Middle Eastern/Levantine Albanians never mixed with anyone, doesn't it? Yes sure.

----------


## ukaj

> Dude you are looping. The highest diversity of E-M78 in Europe is found in Italy, France and Spain. E-V13 has been found in Neolitich Spain. Now it means that 100% European French mixed with Arab and Jewish slaves, while 50% Middle Eastern/Levantine Albanians never mixed with anyone, doesn't it? Yes sure.


https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...-age-bulgaria/ maybe this will shed some light on this matter of ev-13 E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic.I dont think it is higher in italia at all it is high among the albanian people.

----------


## ukaj

> Please, just quote were he says that
> 
> 
> 
> _Cavalli Sforza says Haplogroup E1b1b1, mainly in the form of its E1b1b1a2 (E-V13) sub-clade reaches frequencies above 40% around the area ofKosovo.[31] This clade is thought to have arrived in Europe from western Asia either in the later Mesolithic,[32] or the Neolithic.[33]_
> 
> _
> 
> Battagliaet al Concerningtiming the distribution and diversity of V13 however,Battagliaet al. (2008)proposed an earlier movement whereby the E-M78* lineage ancestral toall modern E-V13 men moved rapidly out of a Southern Egyptianhomeland and arrived in Europe with onlyMesolithictechnologies.They then suggest that the E-V13 sub-clade of E-M78 only expandedsubsequently as native Balkan 'foragers-cum-farmers' adoptedNeolithic technologies from the Near East. They propose that thefirst major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in thedirection of the AdriaticSea withtheNeolithicImpressedWarecultureoften referred to as Impressa or Cardial. Peričicet al. (2005),rather propose that the main route of E-V13 spread was along theVardar-Morava-Danube river 'highway' system.
> ...


I belive you are correct.E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

----------


## ukaj

> Dude you are looping. The highest diversity of E-M78 in Europe is found in Italy, France and Spain. E-V13 has been found in Neolitich Spain. Now it means that 100% European French mixed with Arab and Jewish slaves, while 50% Middle Eastern/Levantine Albanians never mixed with anyone, doesn't it? Yes sure.


What part of italia are you talking about friend

----------


## ukaj

> Dude you are looping. The highest diversity of E-M78 in Europe is found in Italy, France and Spain. E-V13 has been found in Neolitich Spain. Now it means that 100% European French mixed with Arab and Jewish slaves, while 50% Middle Eastern/Levantine Albanians never mixed with anyone, doesn't it? Yes sure.


Since 1992 their were mass migration to otranto of albanian people an bari also around 17 thousand albanians.You would ashume since the highest concentrate of m-78 is in both these places would may mean of the arrival of the albanian people to this coastal line,,Just a thought,Alot were from kosova. Anyway i belive ev-13 is a genetic drift even if it is stems from africa doesnt really matter we all come from them in some point in time all dna is genetic drift.

genetic drift at its best unless the postman got to her lol

----------


## Sigfrido

They have actually tested Calabrian Arbereshe in Sarno et al and they are about 50% I1-I2a-R1a. Sicilian Arbereshe are a little bit more mixed with natives. E-V13 among them is only 15%, as opposed to Al Banians who have 30-40%.

----------


## Fustan

Its from Albanians.

----------


## Yetos

> They have actually tested Calabrian Arbereshe in Sarno et al and they are about 50% I1-I2a-R1a. Sicilian Arbereshe are a little bit more mixed with natives. E-V13 among them is only 15%, as opposed to Al Banians who have 30-40%.


well I was expecting that, to have high I2, but not R1a

in the areas with high density of Arbanites also show I2 but not R1a,
do you have the type of R1a? is it like the Francais or NW Europe one?
it semms like general Maniakis army might have much I2, 
I am expecting to find I2b1 in them, and R1b common with Remenii,
if that found then I am certain about their ethnogenesis,

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## Fustan

> well I was expecting that, to have high I2, but not R1a
> 
> in the areas with high density of Arbanites also show I2 but not R1a,
> do you have the type of R1a? is it like the Francais or NW Europe one?
> it semms like general Maniakis army might have much I2, 
> I am expecting to find I2b1 in them, and R1b common with Remenii,
> if that found then I am certain about their ethnogenesis,


What? Where Arvanites settled, majority is E-V13, J2b or R1b-L23. I2 exists all over Greece (R1a too). Both of them are Slavic haplogroups.

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## DejaVu

*Arberesh dont exist as self-proclaimed identity.*


Arberesh is of Norman origin. 
When the Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century they called the region Arborea and reffered to the people as forest dwellers.

The Italo-Albanian Villages of southern Italy,
by George Nicholas Nasse

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## Fustan

> *Arberesh dont exist as self-proclaimed identity.*
> 
> 
> Arberesh is of Norman origin. 
> When the Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century they called the region Arborea and reffered to the people as forest dwellers.
> 
> The Italo-Albanian Villages of southern Italy,
> by George Nicholas Nasse


Incel svennejävel. Gå och säg det till en Arberesh, se om du har tänderna kvar.

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## Sile

> Incel svennejävel. Gå och säg det till en Arberesh, se om du har tänderna kvar.


Your cheap by swearing at people.

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## Angela

No insults or "fighting words" or I'll issue infractions.

@Deja Vu

I don't have any idea what your comment means. If you're going to make a statement like that, provide a citation to the work where you found it, and quote from the work, so we can understand the point.

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## Yetos

> What? Where Arvanites settled, majority is E-V13, J2b or R1b-L23. I2 exists all over Greece (R1a too). Both of them are Slavic haplogroups.


do not mix Albanians with Arbanites and Arberesh,

there is almpost 0 J2b where Arvanites setlle,
and V-13 is low, about 10-15% as normal distribution to almost south Balkans,
not like Albania,

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## LeBrok

> Incel svennejävel. Gå och säg det till en Arberesh, se om du har tänderna kvar.


English is required to communicate with others on Eupedia, otherwise use PM.

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## Trojet

> do not mix Albanians with Arbanites and Arberesh,
> 
> there is almpost 0 J2b where Arvanites setlle,
> and V-13 is low, about 10-15% as normal distribution to almost south Balkans,
> not like Albania,


Seriously! Do not mix them up huh...
Why would you say that, just because your Greek friend "Dienekes" said so?

First of all we don't have any scientific studies regarding Y-DNA of Arvanites. You are either lying or don't even know the Y-DNA make up of your own country when you claim there is almost 0% J2b where Arvanites settled.
You might want to check this out:
_"J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"
_Source: http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/362...Paolo_tesi.pdf

Do you want another proof? Well, check this out also:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post165500

Also when it comes to Arberesh, just because they currently *may* have low J2b2 percentages according to one study, doesn't mean much. First of all, most came from southern Albania, so they didn't represent the whole Albanian population. If not many J2b2's left for Italy then of course the percentage will be low. Secondly, it's pretty clear Arberesh have experienced a genetic drift in the last 600 years or so. An example: Haplogroup E1b (non V13) which is common in southern Italy is 13% among Arberesh, while among Albanians is pretty much non-existent. Besides, I know at least two Arberesh who are J2b2, and one of them is a member of our Albanian project at FTDNA.

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## Yetos

> Seriously! Do not mix them up huh...
> Why would you say that, just because your Greek friend "Dienekes" said so?
> 
> First of all we don't have any scientific studies regarding Y-DNA of Arvanites. You are either lying or don't even know the Y-DNA make up of your own country when you claim there is almost 0% J2b where Arvanites settled.
> You might want to check this out:
> _"J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"
> _Source: http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/362...Paolo_tesi.pdf
> 
> Do you want another proof? Well, check this out also:
> ...


Arberesh are 3 certain villages in Italy.
all the others are Albanians to Italy.
Corinth was never settled by Arbanites,
search better,
as for Evoia not all is Arbanitan,
and I know all Arbanitochoria there, and I slept in many of them,
I guess you vnever went there.

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## Fustan

Where arvanites settled, fits well with the y-dna distribution of the major Albanian y-dnas (EV13, R1b and J2b2)

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## LABERIA

> Arberesh are 3 certain villages in Italy.
> all the others are Albanians to Italy.
> Corinth was never settled by Arbanites,
> search better,
> as for Evoia not all is Arbanitan,
> and I know all Arbanitochoria there, and I slept in many of them,
> I guess you vnever went there.


Again you are in accurate in what you say. Before the creation of the greek nation and state, Peloponneso, Attica, part of Thessaly and part of Greek islands were inhabitated mostly by Albanians, i.e. Arvanites. These territories were just a continuation of Toskëria, i.e.South Albania. What's happened later after the creation of greek state is another story.

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## Yetos

> Again you are in accurate in what you say. Before the creation of the greek nation and state, Peloponneso, Attica, part of Thessaly and part of Greek islands were inhabitated mostly by Albanians, i.e. Arvanites. These territories were just a continuation of Toskëria, i.e.South Albania. What's happened later after the creation of greek state is another story.


and again you dream,
just find all the census,
and find all the villages,

Greece is not Albania,
and everybody is not shamed, or fear to say his origin,

infact I suggest you to find Orlov's revolt, and Kolokotronis memories,
it will help you.

oh and tell your publications,
how many books they sell?
cause we know who lived where,
he does not,
max of Albanian admixture by census of 1860's is 1.5%
c u


JUST HAVE A LOOK HERE

https://books.google.gr/books?id=PCx...page&q&f=false

as for Thessaly, again you say what your publications claims, without check
At Thessaly no Albanian moved, only Remenii and Moschopolites,
Thessaly is the heaviest area of Aromani-Vlach population,
and had strong Slavic influence, that even today is obvious
now go to American bank of Albania and tell them to find more accurate numbers,
cause Lithoxoou publications made even the slavic villages of Acarnania as Albanian
karaiskakis and kolokotronis Albanians etc etc
for example does a village named Podolovitsa sound Albanian to you?
cause that village it is baptised as Albanian as many many others

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## Fustan

Yetos youre hilarious. Thank you for the information Laberia. It seems Greece is heavily influenced by Albanians.

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## LABERIA

> and again you dream,
> just find all the census,
> and find all the villages,
> 
> Greece is not Albania,
> and everybody is not shamed, or fear to say his origin,
> 
> infact I suggest you to find Orlov's revolt, and Kolokotronis memories,
> it will help you.
> ...


From your sources:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0mMTwLn3mA
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html

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## LABERIA

And about vlachs:
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html
Thessaly was called during the middle age Great Vlachia.

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## LABERIA

About the memoirs of Kollokotronis who was an Arvanite, read this greek article:
https://teleologikos.wordpress.com/2...D%CF%84%CE%B7/
Gg translate:
http://translate.google.com/translat...ngpair=auto|en
*Why Kolokotronis was imprisoned?* _
The truth is that envisioned the creation of a unified state between Greeks and Arvanites flag with the cross and the crescent.

_*Sources:* 

Apostle Vakalopoulos, History of Modern Hellenism 
Arnold Toynbee, the Greeks and their heritage 
Claus Rafailidis, tragicomic history of modern Greek Nation 
Spyridon Trikoupis, History of the Greek Revolution 
* Kolokotronis Memoirs* 
Makrigianni Memoirs

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## LABERIA

> and again you dream,
> just find all the census,
> and find all the villages,
> 
> Greece is not Albania,
> and everybody is not shamed, or fear to say his origin,
> 
> infact I suggest you to find Orlov's revolt, and Kolokotronis memories,
> it will help you.
> ...


Also i want to ask you:
What have to do American Bank of Albania in this discussion? 
To my knowledge doesn't exist an American Bank of Albania. Where can i find a branch of this Bank and what data i have to ask? 
Who is Lithoxoou? 
Never heard about a village named Podolovitsa. Where is this village? Sounds like a slavic toponym. At my knowledge during the communism in Albania only two slavic toponyms was changed. The first was a small town in South Albania named Kuçovë inhabitated by Albanians, the name was changed in Qytet Stalin, The City of Stalin and you can understand the reason. The second was a village in east Albania inhabitated by a small Bulgarian or Fyromski, call as you want, minority. The name of this village is Pushtec. Now the word pusht without the suffix ec, is a balkanik word, probably of turkish origin which can be translated in English, gay. After the end of the communism the people of both this settlements continued to use the old toponyms, Kuçovë and Pushtec.
I don't know other "baptised" toponyms in Albania. If you know, you can post this toponyms. 
From the other side it's documented that Greece changed around 95% of the toponyms. Because all the names of the villages in Greece were, Albanian, slav, vlach, turkish, etc. 
About Kollokotronis and Karaskakis, of course they were Albanians, but this thread it's not about this "greek" heroes. If you want, open an another thread. About the Orlov revolt, was a war between Albanians in the Greek territory, unfortunately one of many. There was an Albanian uprising with the support of Imperial Russia and there was an Albanian contingent at the service of the Ottomans who crushed this uprising. After the end of this uprising, the Albanians, i.e. Arvanites supported by Russians emigrated and settled in Ukraine. My question is: The descendants of this Arvanites who partecipated in the Orlov revolt and who live today in Ukraine, are considered part of modern Greek nation? Because your country is investing a lot of many, of course money of the European taxpayers, in a lost region of Pachistan were live a tribe called kalash people. The reason is that your government belive that this kalash people are descendants of the Army of Alexander The Great!!!!! Ok, the fantasy of modern Greeks has not limits, especially when they use the money of others.

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## LeBrok

> Albanians seem really desperate in trying to justify their apparent indigenous inhabitation. .


In case you didn't notice, it is exactly same case for all ethnicities of Balkans, not mentioning the rest of Europe, and the world. Welcome to Eupedia holodomir. Stay civil.

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## Sile

There is a genetic difference between Albanians in the north, Albanians in the south and kosarvars.


There is also a linguistic difference which has been settled by the Albanian government declaring that the Tosk language is the official language of Albania.

but, reading many internet sites, there seems a want of separation between the people of kosavar and Albanian ...............while Albania wants to incorporate Kosovo.

*albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%, Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%).

*I would like to see where the above is split between north, south and kosovo*
*

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## LABERIA

> There is a genetic difference between Albanians in the north, Albanians in the south and kosarvars.
> 
> 
> There is also a linguistic difference which has been settled by the Albanian government declaring that the Tosk language is the official language of Albania.
> 
> but, reading many internet sites, there seems a want of separation between the people of kosavar and Albanian ...............while Albania wants to incorporate Kosovo.
> 
> *albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%, Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%).
> 
> ...


Kapllan Resuli is an idiot, not an scholar. But, ok is your right to read and quote idiots. 

EDIT. 
And try to read some books, not internet sites.

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## Yetos

> Kapllan Resuli is an idiot, not an scholar. But, ok is your right to read and quote idiots. 
> 
> EDIT. 
> And try to read some books, not internet sites.


why did you?

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## Yetos

> Also i want to ask you:
> What have to do American Bank of Albania in this discussion? 
> To my knowledge doesn't exist an American Bank of Albania. Where can i find a branch of this Bank and what data i have to ask? 
> Who is Lithoxoou?


you know well 
Intensa SanPaolo Bank Albania

want more?

and you know exactly what I say,

DO NOT HIDE BEHIND YOUR FINGER,
IT SHOWS HOW WEAK YOU ARE.

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## Angela

Are we about to move into cloud cuckoo land? Make a u-turn and head the other way.

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## LABERIA

> you know well 
> Intensa SanPaolo Bank Albania
> 
> want more?
> 
> *and you know exactly what I say*,
> 
> DO NOT HIDE BEHIND YOUR FINGER,
> IT SHOWS HOW WEAK YOU ARE.


No i don't know. Is it possible to stop with this nonsense posts? If you know something you can post. What are you waiting? Pls share with us this great secrets.

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## LABERIA

> you know well 
> Intensa SanPaolo Bank Albania
> 
> want more?
> 
> and you know exactly what I say,
> 
> DO NOT HIDE BEHIND YOUR FINGER,
> IT SHOWS HOW WEAK YOU ARE.


The only weak person who stay behind the finger is you Yetos. Do you intend to give an answer to the questions? Because it's not serious for a person at your age this behavior. Your ad hominem attacks, unrelated to the topics, are classify as trollling.

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## Yetos

> No i don't know. Is it possible to stop with this nonsense posts? If you know something you can post. What are you waiting? Pls share with us this great secrets.


ΑΜΥΗΤΟΝΜΗΕΙΣΙΕΝΑΙ 

*Θ*

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## Yetos

> The only weak person who stay behind the finger is you Yetos. Do you intend to give an answer to the questions? Because it's not serious for a person at your age this behavior. Your ad hominem attacks, unrelated to the topics, are classify as trollling.



ha haha

ypur only existance to forum is to spam.
you do not even know who and what is happening at your country,



ΑΡΡΗΤΑΒΡΟΤΟΙΣΙΝ

*Θ*

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## LABERIA

> ha haha
> 
> ypur only existance to forum is to spam.
> you do not even know who and what is happening at your country,
> 
> 
> 
> ΑΡΡΗΤΑΒΡΟΤΟΙΣΙΝ
> 
> *Θ*





> ΑΜΥΗΤΟΝΜΗΕΙΣΙΕΝΑΙ 
> 
> *Θ*


Can you explain what you have wrote probably in Greek here? 
How can you tell me that i am spamming in this forum? How can you accuse me as someone who have an agenda? I think there is nothing bad if people discuss about Greeks, Albanians, etc, always in the right thread. I have not opened a single thread about Greeks and Greece. All my posts dedicated to Greeks and Greece are answer to your ridiculous and disinformative posts. How can you accuse me about agenda? 
Enough is enough. I am going to report you to the mods for this ad homminem attacks.

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## Maleth

The balkans have a very similar genetic mix and the mix has happened thousands of years ago with a few additions along the centuries. Many have tried to create a picture say to link E with some kind of recent slave movement, some suggested a gypsy connection and some others some kind of a recent Muslim agenda demonzing the E-V13 subclade versus to some kind of intellectual refined beautiful sophisticated other y and mtdna. This is all hullabaloo to people who are genuinely interested in human migration, history and the cultures involved. Energies should be concentrated on the positive of life and not to make something impossible possible as the impossible can never become possible....no matter how much one tries.

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## Yetos

> Can you explain what you have wrote probably in Greek here? 
> How can you tell me that i am spamming in this forum? How can you accuse me as someone who have an agenda? I think there is nothing bad if people discuss about Greeks, Albanians, etc, always in the right thread. I have not opened a single thread about Greeks and Greece. All my posts dedicated to Greeks and Greece are answer to your ridiculous and disinformative posts. How can you accuse me about agenda? 
> Enough is enough. I am going to report you to the mods for this ad homminem attacks.



YOUR EMPATHY IS OBVIOUS, YOUR AGENDA IS A PURE ANTI-GREEK SPAM AND THROW MUD WITH JUST STUPID ACCUSATIONS,

I wrote ΑΜΥΗΤΟΝΜΗΕΙΣΙΕΝΑΙ at pure ancient Greek Form,
at some Posts as Albanians you claim that you are ancient and pure Greeks,
at others you claim that Modern Greeks are Albanians, although you have until 1990 the lowest % of admixture, compare the 1500 AD admixture of Greeks to Albania

*And I ask you 
If I wrote in Latin this* 
*Deorum sacra qui non acceperunt non intrant
would you be annoyed?

I guess not
but you are annoyed or offended cause I wrote 
AMYHTONMHΕΙΣΙΕΝΑΙ

*It is obvious to All, modeartors spectators readers that your only purpose at forum existance is to push your anti-Greek and anti-Slavic agenda.
and I report you as by your posts as anti-Greek.

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## Angela

This thread is about E1b1b1 and J2 in the Balkans and Italy. It is not a forum for your inter-Balkan hatreds. The next person to spam about this is going to get an infraction. Go ahead, make my day.

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## Angela

I fail to understand your comment. First of all, it's too general to be meaningful. Second of all, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I began the thread. I didn't; Fire-haired did. 

In the future, inform yourself of the facts and the points made before commenting. People will take you more seriously. Also, if you have a point to make about the content, quote the statement with which you disagree, be specific about the nature of your disagreement, and provide support for your own position.

Third of all, keep a civil tongue in your head.

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## Dinarid

Some members certainly put up ridiculously emotional resistance to any challenge of their views without using any facts whatsoever. I was even told on one thread by someone with a clear White nationalist agenda that my theory "sounds like a lunatic" despite having provided evidence to support it, and that no rebuttal was necessary to dismiss it, as I'm "not an expert". Others, however, are more open-minded.

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## Azzurro

> Arberesh are 3 certain villages in Italy.
> all the others are Albanians to Italy.
> Corinth was never settled by Arbanites,
> search better,
> as for Evoia not all is Arbanitan,
> and I know all Arbanitochoria there, and I slept in many of them,
> I guess you vnever went there.


Yetos, there is more than 3 Arberesh villages in Southern Italy, and some of those villages were actually Greeks from Morea particularly from Corone. They even brought Byzantine Catholicism to the South well in those villages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...sh_settlements

I think E-V13 is neolithic expansion and J2 can in through many movements, J2b is neolithic as well it was formed in the South Balkans and is native to both Albanians and Greeks and would before Helladic and Albanian cultures emerged. J2a is more difficult due to the lack of ancient samples aside from the one from Hungary, J2a was probably a Bronze Age migration, for sure some must have can earlier but most I think is Bronze Age and younger.

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## ihype02

> Arberesh are 3 certain villages in Italy.
> all the others are Albanians to Italy.
> Corinth was never settled by Arbanites,
> search better,
> as for Evoia not all is Arbanitan,
> and I know all Arbanitochoria there, and I slept in many of them,
> I guess you vnever went there.


Search Arbëresh Albanians in WIKI.

----------


## ESpraguer

> E1b1b and J2 in Italy and the Balkans are quite different from each other. In the Balkans most E1b1b is E-V13 (except in Greece and Bulgaria), while in Italy all subclades are found: V12, V13, V22, M34, M81 and even the rare V65 from North Africa. The most common, although by no means dominant, type of E1b1b in Italy is the Middle Eastern (Proto-Semitic ?) M34.
> 
> Same story for J2. Italy has much more diversity, especially for J2a. In the Balkans, over half of the lineages belong to J2b, which .
> 
> Albania and Kosovo have particularly little diversity for E1b1b and J2 subclades: mostly E-V13 and J2b2.
> 
> One reason Italy might have such diversity is that it was the center of the Roman Empire and people flocked from all parts of the Mediterranean.


This is just not true. The most common e1b1b in Italy is E-V13 by far. It is circa 80% of the e1b1b in the north of Italy & in the east of the peninsula, & it's about 50% of all e1b1b in the west of the Italian peninsula. You would have to add all the other e1b1b clades in the west to add up to the amount of E-V13 there. There are of course exceptions, like Sardinia, where EM34 is more common, but E-V13 is about 4x as common as E-M34 in Italy on the aggregate. E-V13 is fairly evenly distributed around the peninsula but it is about twice as frequent in the east & is 8-12% of all haplos in the north (compared to 6-7% of all haplos in the south-west & central-west (Tuscany, Lazio, Sicily). As stated, & I find it interesting, nay puzzling, that in the south & central western peninsula, E-V13 is only 5-8% of all haplos. It is more than double that (15-20%) all along the eastern peninsula (Ravenna, Venice, Bari, Lecce).

----------

