# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Who were the Thracians?

## julia90

WHO WERE THE THRACIANS?

I'm curious of their origins... from where they came? What physical aspects did they have? were they similar to other mediterranean-balkanic populations such as greeks, illyrians?
Where are their ancestors today?
It's true that they were very tall?

from wikipedia

The ancient Thracians (Ancient Greek: Θρᾷκες, Latin: Thraci) were a group of Indo-European tribes inhabiting areas in Southeastern Europe.[1] They spoke the Thracian language – a scarcely attested branch of the Indo-European language family. The study of Thracians and Thracian culture is known as Thracology.

The first historical record about the Thracians is found in the Iliad, where they are described as allies of the Trojans in the Trojan War against the Greeks.[2] The ethnonym Thracian comes from Ancient Greek Θρᾷξ (pl. Θρᾷκες) (Thrax, Thrakes pl.) or Θρᾴκιος (Ionic: Θρηίκιος) (Thrakios, Ion. Thrēikios), and the toponym Thrace comes from Θρᾴκη (Ion. Θρῄκη) (En. Thrakē, Ion. Threkē).[3] Both names are exonyms developed by the Greeks

n Greek mythology, Thrax (by his name simply the quintessential Thracian) was regarded as one of the reputed sons of the god Ares.[5] In the Alcestis, Euripides mentions that one of the names of Ares himself was Thrax since he was regarded as the patron of Thrace (his golden or gilded shield was kept in his temple at Bistonia in Thrace).

The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on remains of material culture. It is generally proposed that a proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age[7] when the latter, around 1500 BC, conquered the indigenous peoples.[8] We speak of proto-Thracians from which during the Iron Age[9] (about 1000 BC) Dacians and Thracians begin developing

Divided into separate tribes, the Thracians did not manage to form a lasting political organization until the Odrysian state was founded in the 5th century BC. Like the Illyrians, the mountainous regions were home to various warlike and ferocious Thracian tribes, while the plains peoples were apparently more peaceable.[citation needed]
Thracians inhabited parts of the ancient provinces: Thrace, Moesia, Macedonia, Dacia, Scythia Minor, Sarmatia, Bithynia, Mysia, Pannonia, and other regions on the Balkans and Anatolia. This area extends over most of the Balkans region, and the Getae north of the Danube as far as beyond the Bug.

Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair.[37] Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads.[38] Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard.[38] Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired:
...Men make gods in their own image; those of the Ethiopians are black and snub-nosed, those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair.[39]
Bacchylides described Theseus as wearing a hat with red hair, which classicists believe was Thracian in origin.[40] Other ancient writers who described the hair of the Thracians as red include Hecataeus of Miletus,[41]Galen,[42] Clement of Alexandria,[43] and Julius Firmicus Maternus.[44]
Nevertheless academic studies have concluded that Thracians had physical characteristics typical of European Mediterraneans. According to Dr. Beth Cohen, Thracians had "the same dark hair and the same facial features as the Ancient Greeks."[45] Recent genetic analysis comparing DNA samples of ancient Thracian fossil material from southeastern Romania with individuals from modern ethnicities place Italian, Albanian and Greek individuals in closer genetic kinship with the Thracians than Romanian and Bulgarian individuals.[46] On the other hand, Dr. Aris N. Poulianos states that Thracians like modern Bulgarians belong mainly to the Aegean athropological type.

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## Gusar

Thracian civilization geographically coincides predominantly with modern Bulgaria and it's quite popular to hold that Bulgarians are the overwhelming descendants of the Thracians. What I found odd is that iGenea seemed to assign a rather significant portion of Thracian heritage to Bosnians, moreso then Serbs who you would expect more of based on a closer geographic proximity. The genetic analysis referred to in your cut & paste though would seem to disagree with anything I've just said in a traditional historic interpretation since it would seem to associate them mostly with Italian, Greek & Albanian heritage in contrast to the slavic influenced Bulgarian & Bosnian identities.

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## julia90

indeed i was in Herzegovina two months ago (visiting Medjugorje).. the people seemed mosly similar to albanian illirian types.. althought there in Herzegovina, people are very tall.. it could confirm that tharcians-dacians-illirians are the same family and that people inhabitated all the south balkans and some part of italy too..because many italians have that look too.

well, i think bosnia and bulgaria have some slavic influence but for what i saw.. the people aren't for the most slavic looking.. there is a high dominat pre-slavic substratum of look..

anyway Herzegovina has very good-looking people...  :Smiling:

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## mrikë

As far as I'm aware modern day Bulgarians descend from Proto-bulgarians who swamped the Balkans around Vth century A.D. from their place of origin which is modern day Turkey (that being the period in which they are mentioned for the first time). They eventually build up an organized state by the VIIth century, and by the XIIth century they were already mixed with the Slavs. Regarding Thracians we are led to believe by studies that they are a Bronze-age population, consequently an IE population, and in a way I do not see their historical correlation with the Bulgarians. Also genetically one can tell the pronounced asiatic element in Bulgarians' physical appearance (this goes for the modern day Macedonians as well, but that is another topic).
All in all one tends to have the logical assumption that there could have been eventual mixing with the native population, in this case being the Thracians (or descendants of Thracians), but that is a long way from being proved.

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## Yaan

Bulgars never come from Turkey you are completely wrong. Bulgars come first from what is today Tajikistan and Uzbekistan,then they settled in European Russia and finally in the 4-7 century they come to the Balkan.They mixed with the South Slavs which were mix of Slavic R1a,I2a people and local J2b,E(V13) people. The Bulgars themselves were R1a,J2 and G2a people with probably some R1b! 
So there is the propaganda that Bulgars were Turkic,but I do not believe this and there is no prove!In Bulgarians Turkic genes such as C,D,O are non existing and Q is 1% even though I have never seen a research with a Q in it! 
Bulgarians are mix of Bulgar,Slavic and Thracian!
Albanians are mix of Iliriyan, Thracian and some Slavic!
It is so funny how Albanians try to privatized the right to be the only indigenous people to the Balkan and haplogorup E(V13)
Just like some crazy Croat here forced the moderator to change the Bulgarians values for I2a(between 28%-38%,here it was 33%,so the moderator was forced to change them to 20% ,because the Croat was unhappy! 
Guys it does not work like this!

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## ElHorsto

> Bulgars never come from Turkey you are completely wrong. Bulgars come first from what is today Tajikistan and Uzbekistan,then they settled in European Russia and finally in the 4-7 century they come to the Balkan.They mixed with the South Slavs which were mix of Slavic R1a,I2a people and local J2b,E(V13) people. The Bulgars themselves were R1a,J2 and G2a people with probably some R1b!


Right, Bulgars did not come from Turkey, but along the northern shores of the Black sea. Many people also always confuse turkic speakers with turks. On the other hand, Turks from turkey genetically are also not quite representative of original turkic speakers.
Regarding the Proto-Bulgar origin there is an old dispute between two camps, one believed the Proto-Bulgars (not Bulgarians!) being asiatic-turkic speaking people, and others believed them to be indo-iranians. Seems you belong to the second party, and modern genetics seems to prove you right. One historian (Georgiev?) made an interesting claim that "Khan Asparukh" was misread as asiatic "Khan", but it actually was "Kana", something entirely different. Also the name "Aspa" itself is not turkic but iranian, meaning "horse". Still today Tajiks are indo-iranian speakers.

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## Yaan

Yes. Asparuh means like the White Horsemen.And the title was kanasubigi or something like this. I think they were R1a,J2 and G2a people. 
There is now a really big research on Bulgarian genes with 860 sample,the MT dna is already ready and published. It say Bulgarians are Slavic and Med on the Mt side,the Y dna is yet to be published,but I expect more R1a,I2a then published up to now!

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## Yetos

well my infos give 2 origins of Balkars but none of them as IE 

1 is already said the central asian steppes 
2 is an around Georgia area, 

according my infos Balkars were Turkish speaking 
By that I do not mean ottomans or Seljuk but the North corridor the one is connected with Avars Huns Tatars khazars Oghur etc

Balkars although their movement -invasion is known as also their primary settlements in an area that limits Zagora V Tyrnovo Burgas(pyrgos) Varna, meaning that the primary genes should gather there and is not that ancient, 

The Bulgarian question 
in each Balkanic countries all have questions about linguistic origin etc,
the Bulgarian paradox is since Balkars were not IE why modern Bulgarians speak of Slavic Language, a clear IE language, 
Georgiev answers that, with Tracian = proto Slavic but for me that is not correct.

At least for me it seems like Local Nobles when Balkars got Christianity they also accepted Kyrillos and Methodios 
(Cyrillic) old Slavonic since might be familiar from times of Russian residence or Slavic invasion in Balkans, 
by gennetics seems like Balkars although they manage to settle were minority, and the population is mostly same from roman times till today,

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## Yaan

You seem to be confused my friend. 
1.It was Bulgars,not Bulgars
2. The theories are Iranic and Turkic
3. Turkic is not Turkish
4. Bulgars might have speak a Turkic language,not Turkish
5. Bulgarians are mix of Slavic,Thracian and Bulgar, just like Greeks are mix of Hellenic,Trachian and Slavic
6. Bulgarians, not Bulgars speak a Slavic language,because when the Bulgarian nation formed 7-9 century this is the language that was chosen
7. Why French speak French(coming from Germanic Francs) which is actually Latin
8. Why Russian speak Russian(coming from the Viking tribe Rus) which is Slavic
9/ Bulgar were not minority,but were less then the South Slavs(Thracian- Slavic) 
10. Kiril and Methodi created the alphabet,but the alphabet we use today was developed in Bulgaria from Bulgarian
11. Kiril and Methodi were either 100% Bulgarian or 50% Bulgarian
There is no Russian in Balkan history,when we were spreading the Slavic culture the mix between Slavic-Finnic- Viking was not done yet and they were not Christian yet!

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## Yetos

> You seem to be confused my friend. 
> 1.It was Bulgars,not Bulgars
> 2. The theories are Iranic and Turkic
> 3. Turkic is not Turkish
> 4. Bulgars might have speak a Turkic language,not Turkish
> 5. Bulgarians are mix of Slavic,Thracian and Bulgar, just like Greeks are mix of Hellenic,Trachian and Slavic
> 6. Bulgarians, not Bulgars speak a Slavic language,because when the Bulgarian nation formed 7-9 century this is the language that was chosen
> 7. Why French speak French(coming from Germanic Francs) which is actually Latin
> 8. Why Russian speak Russian(coming from the Viking tribe Rus) which is Slavic
> ...


you are totally out,

it is another point Balkars and another Bulgaria, 
besides only the fact that you consider Kyrillos and Methodios Bulgarians seems like your History view is after nationalistic propaganda at scholl. 

Better ead again who where they? not even 0% Balkars, 

*READ AGAIN MY POST* 
I clear say Turkish and I know what I am writing, 
I clearly say not ottoman neither Seljuk 
so next time watch what you read, 

Balkars were minority that is why the asian element is so little at modern Bulgaria, 
Do not Confuse modern Bulgaria with Balkars and ancient Thrace, 

your 6 point is true, at least for me, for modern Bulgaria.

watch your 8

*Vikings were Slavic speaking?*


your 11 you say that, not me, 

I say that Balkars were not Slavic so not Russians, but came from Russia-Ucraine. before Balkans they were settled there, 

your nine, 

yes indeed they were, but they gain followers, and they cooperate with Slavic tribes (seven tribes union), so they got Slaviziced, when christianity came, 
by the way I doubt even if kaloyan was Balkar, but of Slavic tribes origin,

the population of modern Bulgaria proves that most of it synthesis is after roman times, and not after Balkar movements, so indeed asparuch people were minority,

It seems like *Severi* predate the Balkars,
I also believe that kaloyan was Severi.

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## Yaan

Balkars are people from the Kavkaz, Bulgars are something different!There were never Balkars in the Balkan!
Turkish is different then Turkic it is like I say Russians are Slovenian!

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## Yaan

Viking did not speak Slavic!

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## Yetos

> Balkars are people from the Kavkaz, Bulgars are something different!There were never Balkars in the Balkan!
> Turkish is different then Turkic it is like I say Russians are Slovenian!


That is what you do not understand, 
when we say Slavic we mean all slavic languages and dialects
when we say German we mainly speak of Deutch but when we speak Germanic we also mean Austrian Dutc etc 





> Viking did not speak Slavic!





> 8. Why Russian speak Russian(coming from the Viking tribe Rus) which is Slavic


cause there is a word Ρως Ros that means North compare Greek Βορας (Vo)RAS

Rus mean read Ros means North

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## Yaan

Why is Russian different then Norwegian and why is french different then Danish?

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## Yaan

If you answer this you will understand why Bulgarian is a Slavic language!

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## Yetos

> Why is Russian different then Norwegian and why is french different then Danish?


I will answer you if you answer me which is the capital of Ros and which is capital of Rus

to help you more more Novgorod was not Ros

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## Yaan

What has this to do with my ancestors the Thracians? 
My point is that everybody is a mixture of something and you do not know nothing about Bulgarians and Bulgars, Balkars are people from Kavkaz, Bulgarians never come from Turkey! Learn Bulgarian History if you want to discus it !

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## Yetos

> What has this to do with my ancestors the Thracians? 
> My point is that everybody is a mixture of something and you do not know nothing about Bulgarians and Bulgars, Balkars are people from Kavkaz, Bulgarians never come from Turkey! Learn Bulgarian History if you want to discus it !


*
Plz stop putting words in my mouth, 
I never said things, that you say I did,

*School history is not always the real one. 

I am not claiming of any clear and pure race or nation

better read your post again and who claims what instead of provoke,

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## Yaan

So we speak about Bulgar not Balkar, and non of them are Turkish speaking,but Turkic speaking 

*according my infos Balkars were Turkish speaking* 

*Balkars although their movement -invasion is known as also their primary settlements in an area that limits Zagora V Tyrnovo Burgas(pyrgos) Varna, meaning that the primary genes should gather there and is not that ancient, 

The Bulgarian question 
in each Balkanic countries all have questions about linguistic origin etc,
the Bulgarian paradox is since Balkars were not IE why modern Bulgarians speak of Slavic Language, a clear IE language, 
Georgiev answers that, with Tracian = proto Slavic but for me that is not correct.*

*At least for me it seems like Local Nobles when Balkars got Christianity they also accepted Kyrillos and Methodios 
(Cyrillic) old Slavonic since might be familiar from times of Russian residence or Slavic invasion in Balkans, 
by gennetics seems like Balkars although they manage to settle were minority, and the population is mostly same from roman times till today,[/QUOTE]*
There we never Russian in settlement in the Balkan, Slavic s completely different!Church Slavonic is Bulgarian!

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## Yetos

> So we speak about Bulgar not Balkar, and non of them are Turkish speaking,but Turkic speaking 
> 
> *according my infos Balkars were Turkish speaking* 
> 
> *Balkars although their movement -invasion is known as also their primary settlements in an area that limits Zagora V Tyrnovo Burgas(pyrgos) Varna, meaning that the primary genes should gather there and is not that ancient, 
> 
> The Bulgarian question 
> in each Balkanic countries all have questions about linguistic origin etc,
> the Bulgarian paradox is since Balkars were not IE why modern Bulgarians speak of Slavic Language, a clear IE language, 
> ...


*I SAY CLEAR RUSSIAN RESIDENCE
MEANING FROM THE TIME BALKARS WERE SETTLED AT UCRAINE AND RUSSIA 
MUCH BEFORE ASPARUCH AND THEIR ENTRANCE AT BALAKANS*


*CHURCH SLAVONIC AND CYRILLIC IS THE FORM THAT WAS GIVEN BY KYRILLOS AT GREAT MORAVIA* 

*SLAVONIC PROTO FORMATION IS FROM GREAT MORAVIA*,
MUCH LATER EACH COUNTRY TRANSFORM IT TO ITS OWN WILL AND NEEDS
So modern Bulgarian at least the official form that were accepted from Christianity times is the Great Moravian,
and change with time later according the needs of BUlgarians

told the history you learn in school is not always complete or correct

Deutch is Germanic
Austrian is Germanic etc 

Turkish and Turkic 
Balkar (original) is Turkic 
Ottoman is Turkic
Seljuk is Turkic 
Tatar is Turkic 

your problem is that by Turkish you mean modern Turkey
Although I mean the Linguistic family 
if you like then ok Balkar was a Turkic language which is part of Turkic languages relative of Turkish

sory but in my language Turkic is female gender and Turkish is neutral gender 
but if I use Turkish as Female I mean The family of languages,

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## Yaan

Balkar and Bulgar is not the same!
Nobody from Ukraine settled the Balkan, it was much later when the barbarians of Svetoslav come. Apparently you know nothing about Bulgaria. Russia did not exist at this time. Ukrane is younger than Bulgaria. 
Stop speaking about Balkar and Turks.
Bulgars were J2a ,R1a Iranian warriors! 
Learn some Bulgarian and Balkan history and then we can talk!Have a nice day!

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## Yaan

We speak English,not your language,so use the proper terms!

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## Yetos

> Balkar and Bulgar is not the same!
> Nobody from Ukraine settled the Balkan, it was much later when the barbarians of Svetoslav come. Apparently you know nothing about Bulgaria. Russia did not exist at this time. Ukrane is younger than Bulgaria. 
> Stop speaking about Balkar and Turks.
> Bulgars were J2a ,R1a Iranian warriors! 
> Learn some Bulgarian and Balkan history and then we can talk!Have a nice day!


*Sorry pal the answer is from your own leaps*




> Bulgars never come from Turkey you are completely wrong. Bulgars come first from what is today Tajikistan and Uzbekistan,then they settled in European Russia and finally in the 4-7 century they come to the Balkan.They mixed with the South Slavs which were mix of Slavic R1a,I2a people and local J2b,E(V13) people. The Bulgars themselves were R1a,J2 and G2a people with probably some R1b! 
> So there is the propaganda that Bulgars were Turkic,but I do not believe this and there is no prove!In Bulgarians Turkic genes such as C,D,O are non existing and Q is 1% even though I have never seen a research with a Q in it! 
> Bulgarians are mix of Bulgar,Slavic and Thracian!
> Albanians are mix of Iliriyan, Thracian and some Slavic!
> It is so funny how Albanians try to privatized the right to be the only indigenous people to the Balkan and haplogorup E(V13)
> Just like some crazy Croat here forced the moderator to change the Bulgarians values for I2a(between 28%-38%,here it was 33%,so the moderator was forced to change them to 20% ,because the Croat was unhappy! 
> Guys it does not work like this!

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## Malsori

> Bulgars never come from Turkey you are completely wrong. Bulgars come first from what is today Tajikistan and Uzbekistan,then they settled in European Russia and finally in the 4-7 century they come to the Balkan.They mixed with the South Slavs which were mix of Slavic R1a,I2a people and local J2b,E(V13) people. The Bulgars themselves were R1a,J2 and G2a people with probably some R1b! 
> So there is the propaganda that Bulgars were Turkic,but I do not believe this and there is no prove!In Bulgarians Turkic genes such as C,D,O are non existing and Q is 1% even though I have never seen a research with a Q in it! 
> Bulgarians are mix of Bulgar,Slavic and Thracian!
> Albanians are mix of Iliriyan, Thracian and some Slavic!
> It is so funny how Albanians try to privatized the right to be the only indigenous people to the Balkan and haplogorup E(V13)
> Just like some crazy Croat here forced the moderator to change the Bulgarians values for I2a(between 28%-38%,here it was 33%,so the moderator was forced to change them to 20% ,because the Croat was unhappy! 
> Guys it does not work like this!


Albanians have nothing to do with Slavs primary.And stop ******** please.Ofcourse we are older than the rest of Balkan Slavs who score high with R1a+I2a2.

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## Yaan

Albanians especially Tosk also have a lot of Slavic genes(R1a and I2a)!

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## Endri

You do realise that Tosk are the south albanians? If you would show links to support your claims, instead of propaganda you would be more convincing...

As for the theme, i think there might be Thracian genes among Bulgarians but those aren't dominant in compare to the Slav and Turkic ones. 

PS: I had never heard that Russians were from the viking tribe of Rus and that vikings spoke slavic :O

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## Yaan

Turkic genes in Bulgarians are 1 % or less.
Between 19-25 % of the Bulgarians are E(V13) Thracian
Turkic genes are C,D,O,N and Q, the first four are not observed in Bulgarians, the last is like 1!
So the propaganda is you! 
Bulgars - R1a/J2a/G2a
Slavs- I2a/R1a
Thracians- E(V13), J2b,R1b

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## razor

That's all ancient stuff, making up some 2% of the genetic identity if that. I suggest you pay more attention to autosomal markers. Read Dienekes' blog and familiarize yourself with its creatively shifting components. The Europeans are basically a continuum today.

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## Yaan

There is little R1b in the Balkan and a lot of J2b and E(V13) far more then 2 %,for Bulgarian Thracian/Iliriyan genes are like 30%,for Albanians maybe close to 60%!

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## Yetos

> Turkic genes in Bulgarians are 1 % or less.
> Between 19-25 % of the Bulgarians are E(V13) Thracian
> Turkic genes are C,D,O,N and Q, the first four are not observed in Bulgarians, the last is like 1!
> So the propaganda is you! 
> Bulgars - R1a/J2a/G2a
> Slavs- I2a/R1a
> Thracians- E(V13), J2b,R1b


J2a is Characteristic of many tribes, 

Can you give details of what J2a? 
there are J2a that is connected with Greeks, ith minor Asia etc
Can you be more specific?

or you just thought that J2a is Balkar-Bulgarian? cause you like it,

G2a is also Characteristic of minor asia and Greece, it is considered Local from far ancientry. 
Can you be more specific on DYS etc? cause I am G2a also

R1a might Slavic or Turkic with Q or Thracian even Germanic
But R1a is minority in Bulgaria, as the whole Balkans, 
I mean it is not primary HG
EV-13 is ArcadoCypriot Levantine that entered Balkans at Chalkolitic and Copper era (2000 BC) a
E-V13 is not IE so Thracians were not EV-13 

J2b is spread from Italy to India,
J2b according DYS can be romano-Italian, Greek Albanian Local Bulgarian, Minor Asian even Indian from Cingueari (guitanes)

now for first time I hear that Thracian were r1b by you!!!!!!!!!!!! 

There is a post about Thracians of mighty be I2a 
Thracians were R1a or I2a and not the ones you say,

*Be more specific and give some extra details,*


THE EXISTANCE OF Q IN BULGARIA PROVES THAT BULGARS -BALKARS WERE TURKIC ORIGIN 
And surely minority


Before you answer plz read 

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...t-Thracian-DNA


Asparuch possible meaning Silver man in Turkic 
or white as silver

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## Endri

> Turkic genes in Bulgarians are 1 % or less.
> Between 19-25 % of the Bulgarians are E(V13) Thracian
> Turkic genes are C,D,O,N and Q, the first four are not observed in Bulgarians, the last is like 1!
> So the propaganda is you! 
> Bulgars - R1a/J2a/G2a
> Slavs- I2a/R1a
> Thracians- E(V13), J2b,R1b


I'm the propaganda? HELL YEAH B****H! I want a fee for every time i'm mentioned and you've mentioned my name once till now :P

Anyway the lack of Turkic genes means just that Bulgarians are just some common slavs from the VII century, and as i saw from the thread that Yetos linked, it seems pretty common for Slavs to claim they are Dacian/Thracian origin, or even more, claim that Thracians (and Dacians but this not so often) spoke pre-slavic language or that slavs originated from balkans. What it seems clear is that this claiming runes in your genes :P

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## Malsori

> Albanians especially Tosk also have a lot of Slavic genes(R1a and I2a)!


I don't consider Albanian those that don't know their fis.Besides that Kosovar Ghegs completely lack Slavic genes.There is a lack of logic at your statement.How can Albanians have almost the same amount of Slavic genes as Bulgarians or Serbs.It is irrational.And your previous posts are hilarious.You are biased personality.

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## LeBrok

Endri wash your mouth. Yaan stop shouting with every sentence. In general guys, try talking to your new friends on Eupedia like you would talk face to face across a table.
Ongoing discussion in current form won't be tolerated!

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## Endri

> Endri wash your mouth.


I think you misunderstood me... That word there has one * more than the word needs + is just an expression with no bad intentions behind it -_-

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## zanipolo

> I'm the propaganda? HELL YEAH B****H! I want a fee for every time i'm mentioned and you've mentioned my name once till now :P
> 
> Anyway the lack of Turkic genes means just that Bulgarians are just some common slavs from the VII century, and as i saw from the thread that Yetos linked, it seems pretty common for Slavs to claim they are Dacian/Thracian origin, or even more, claim that Thracians (and Dacians but this not so often) spoke pre-slavic language or that slavs originated from balkans. What it seems clear is that this claiming runes in your genes :P


its the fault of the propoganda book called - *Srbi...narod najstariji written by Olga Lukovic-Pjanovic* which basically describes that all eastern europe from modern Germany ( rhine river), scandinavia (except finns), balkans ( except Greece) where slavic people from 4500BC , also says the Pelagasians, etruscans and trojans where slavic people.
This book was presented and taught in schools ....I think basically until Tito's death. I need to confirm with my slavic friends .

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## zanipolo

> PS: I had never heard that Russians were from the viking tribe of Rus and that vikings spoke slavic :O


Its the same rubbish as saying that during the roman empire everyone spoke Latin so everyone was Roman.....from britain to Parthia.
Today most people speak English so we are all from England ...........LOL

some people are very strange in placing people with each other because they speak the same language

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## Yetos

The problem in Balkans is far old from 1900 
each religion each language each castle each feudal ruler created each own ideas of pure nation 

they took special parts from written delete another and prove them selves as the good ones and the rest as garbage, 
that was pushed in low degree schools to raise the moral, and in some cases even to Universities, 
even today we speak that still happens in Balkans, 

so high Educated people who know they kept mouth closed from Fear, 
High Educate do not even go to provoke, but lower extra Nationalists claim bullshit, 

I read a book from 50's from my country, and books of 2000 from modern Balkanic countries and I tell you Zanipolo that the one you mention might even be innocent comparing others

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## Elias2

Thracians are the people the ancient Greeks described living in Thrace. I don't think they called themselves "Thracians", but since we know little to nothing of their language, we continue to have to call them this. I think modern day bulgarians do decend from a mixture of Thracian, Slavic, and a Bulgar ruling class. Thracians were also hellenized and modern day Greeks also have a connection with these people.

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## razor

> Thracians are the people the ancient Greeks described living in Thrace. I don't think they called themselves "Thracians", but since we know little to nothing of their language, we continue to have to call them this. I think modern day bulgarians do decend from a mixture of Thracian, slavic, and a Bulgar ruling class. Thracians were also hellenized and modern day Greeks also have a connection with these people.


I suggest you capitalize "Slavic" else people think you are prejudiced (:=)))

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## Yaan

> I'm the propaganda? HELL YEAH B****H! I want a fee for every time i'm mentioned and you've mentioned my name once till now :P
> 
> Anyway the lack of Turkic genes means just that Bulgarians are just some common slavs from the VII century, and as i saw from the thread that Yetos linked, it seems pretty common for Slavs to claim they are Dacian/Thracian origin, or even more, claim that Thracians (and Dacians but this not so often) spoke pre-slavic language or that slavs originated from balkans. What it seems clear is that this claiming runes in your genes :P


 R u calliing me names? How disgusting! Moderators please punish this poster!

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## julia90

a map, Province of Thracia in Roman time:



Historic Thrace area


*Thrace  /ˈθreɪs/ (demonym Thracian /ˈθreɪʃⁱən/; Bulgarian: Тракия, Trakiya, Greek: Θράκη, Thráki, Turkish: Trakya) is a historical and geographic area in southeast Europe. As a geographical concept, Thrace designates a region bounded by the Balkan Mountains on the north, Rhodope Mountains and theAegean Sea on the south, and by the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara on the east. The areas it comprises are southeastern Bulgaria (Northern Thrace), northeastern Greece (Western Thrace), and the European part of Turkey (Eastern Thrace). The biggest part of Thrace is part of present-day Bulgaria. In Turkey, it is also called Rumelia. The name comes from the Thracians, an ancient Indo-European people inhabiting Southeastern Europe*

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## julia90

*Thrace in Greek Mythology*

Ancient Greek mythology provides them with a mythical ancestor, named Thrax, son of the war-god Ares, who was said to reside in Thrace. The Thracians appear in Homer's _Iliad_ as Trojan allies, led by Acamas and Peiros. Later in the _Iliad_, Rhesus, another Thracian king, makes an appearance. Cisseus, father-in-law to the Trojan elder Antenor, is also given as a Thracian king. Homeric Thrace was vaguely defined, and stretched from the River Axios in the west to theHellespont and Black Sea in the east. The Catalogue of Ships mentions three separate contingents from Thrace: Thracians led by Acamas and Peiros, fromAenus; Cicones led by Euphemus, from southern Thrace, near Ismaros; and from the city of Sestus, on the Thracian (northern) side of the Hellespont, which formed part of the contingent led by Asius. Greek mythology is replete with Thracian kings, including Diomedes, Tereus, Lycurgus, Phineus, Tegyrius,Eumolpus, Polymnestor, Poltys, and Oeagrus (father of Orpheus). In addition to the tribe that Homer calls Thracians, ancient Thrace was home to numerous other tribes, such as the Edones, Bisaltae, Cicones, and Bistones.
Thrace is also mentioned in Ovid's Metamorphoses in the episode of Philomela, Procne, and Tereus. Tereus, the King of Thrace, lusts after his sister-in-law, Philomela. He kidnaps her, holds her captive, rapes her, and cuts out her tongue. Philomela manages to get free, however. She and her sister, Procne, plot to get revenge, by killing Itys (son of Tereus and Procne) and serving him to his father for dinner. At the end of the myth, all three turn into birds—Procne, a swallow; Philomela, a nightingale; and Tereus, a hoopoe.

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## Yetos

> a map, Province of Thracia in Roman time:
> 
> 
> 
> Historic Thrace area
> 
> 
> *Thrace  /ˈθreɪs/ (demonym Thracian /ˈθreɪʃⁱən/; Bulgarian: Тракия, Trakiya, Greek: Θράκη, Thráki, Turkish: Trakya) is a historical and geographic area in southeast Europe. As a geographical concept, Thrace designates a region bounded by the Balkan Mountains on the north, Rhodope Mountains and theAegean Sea on the south, and by the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara on the east. The areas it comprises are southeastern Bulgaria (Northern Thrace), northeastern Greece (Western Thrace), and the European part of Turkey (Eastern Thrace). The biggest part of Thrace is part of present-day Bulgaria. In Turkey, it is also called Rumelia. The name comes from the Thracians, an ancient Indo-European people inhabiting Southeastern Europe*



that area is the Makedonian thrace 

its the thrace of epigoni, the part of thrace tha makedonians could conquer, 

not the whole of Thrace, 

the lysimachos Τhrace (Λυσιμαχος) 

thracce was the whole area bellow Istros and east of dinaric Alps, while Getae was the area above the Istros (dunav)

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## Endri

> R u calliing me names? How disgusting! Moderators please punish this poster!


You're funny. You act or you really are this way?

Anyway according to Thracians and them being modern day Bulgarian. I found this article on wikipedia researching by case: 




> Another study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age.This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age, belonging to some cultures such as Tei, Monteoru and Noua were found in graves from some necropoles SE of Romania, namely in Zimnicea, Smeeni, Candesti, Cioinagi-Balintesti, Gradistea-Coslogeni and Sultana-Malu Rosu; and the human fossil bones and teeth of 27 individuals from the early Iron Age, dating from the 10th to 7th century B.C. from the Hallstatt Era (the Babadag Culture), were found extremely SE of Romania near the Black Sea coast, in some settlements from Dobrogea, namely: Jurilovca, Satu Nou, Babadag, Niculitel and Enisala-Palanca. After comparing this material with the present-day European population, the authors concluded:
> 
> Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the *Italian (7.9 %)*, the *Albanian (6.3 %)* and the *Greek (5.8 %)* have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and *Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%)*.


So if Bulgarians are the closest relatives to Thracians what are the rest?

If any one wants to read it in detail it can do it here

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## julia90

thought that is mtdna, which is the expression of just a single gene.. haplogroup analysis are useless, all autosomals analysis are the one which count

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## Diurpaneus

> You're funny. You act or you really are this way?
> 
> Anyway according to Thracians and them being modern day Bulgarian. I found this article on wikipedia researching by case: 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Bulgarians are the closest relatives to Thracians what are the rest?
> 
> If any one wants to read it in detail it can do it here



They succesfully extract Bronze Age DNA(samples from 4100-3200 years ago)
But the results from Babadag samples(Iron Age) are inconclusive(Eupedia's Ancient DNA mentions that)
Latins ,Greeks ,Thracians, Dacians/Getae and Illyrians had some common ancestors (Cernavoda-Bolleraz culture- R1b guys).
But there's a second wave(at the end of the Bronze age) who had nothing to do with Latins.
Those were Catacomb culture people(R1a guys) who mixed with previous R1bs to form Dacians/Getae ,Thracians and Illyrians.


http://www.hist-europe.fr/Prehistoir...-europeen.html

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## Yaan

R1b in the Balkan is from Ottoman Turks, Hellenics and Celts. 
Trachians were E(V13) mostly with a lot of other. Stop with the funny mith R1b the masters of the world that ruled everybody. Western Europe was also ruled by G2a, I1, I2b people which ruled over R1b peasants. But the rulers died a lot in wars and probably also R1b is not weak for the plague thats is why you have it so much in the West.In the Balkan it is the E(V13), J2a,J2b, I2a,R1a,G2a. 
Be proud of you genes OK,but R1b ruled in the balkan yeah and J1 ruled in Scandianvia ha ha ha ha

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## Taranis

> R1b in the Balkan is from Ottoman Turks, Hellenics and Celts. 
> Trachians were E(V13) mostly with a lot of other. Stop with the funny mith R1b the masters of the world that ruled everybody. Western Europe was also ruled by G2a, I1, I2b people which ruled over R1b peasants. But the rulers died a lot in wars and probably also R1b is not weak for the plague thats is why you have it so much in the West.In the Balkan it is the E(V13), J2a,J2b, I2a,R1a,G2a. 
> Be proud of you genes OK,but R1b ruled in the balkan yeah and J1 ruled in Scandianvia ha ha ha ha


Please stop that, and be more polite towards your discussion others.

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## Yaan

Stop what? Being polite towards who? The rude Greek or the Albanian that insulted me? I thought people here are interested in genes and anthropology, but up to now I see mostly racist pseudo nationalist!!
I will write then only in my topics and replay to people like Maciamo,which are polite and now about stuff, not to evil Kosovars and Greeks!Kind Regards!

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## Taranis

> Stop what? Being polite towards who? The rude Greek or the Albanian that insulted me? I thought people here are interested in genes and anthropology, but up to now I see mostly racist pseudo nationalist!!
> I will write then only in my topics and replay to people like Maciamo,which are polite and now about stuff, not to evil Kosovars and Greeks!Kind Regards!


Well, Endri already received an informal warning from LeBrok earlier. I have to agree that without mentioning names, some people certainly follow strange ideas/agendas, but that is nontheless not a reason to insult them and denigrate them for their nationality. What I am asking from you applies to everybody else here as well.

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## Yaan

I did not insult a nationality. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted by evil Greeks and Kosovars!All the best!

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## Taranis

> I did not insult a nationality. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted by evil Greeks and Kosovars!All the best!


Please calm down. What I'm telling you applies to everybody else in this thread.

You yourself said that the origins of the (old) Bulgars lie in Central Asia, and there's nothing much to add there. On the flip side, I find the discussions about trying to link nationality and genetics rather pointless, since genetic markers clearly transcend ethnolinguistic groups and most Haplogroups are usually vastly older than the ethnic group in question. To pick an example, Haplogroup E-V13 is without a doubt at least Neolithic in age (we can infer that from a find of it in Neolithic Iberia), and it occurs on the Balkans in various concentrations. Trying to link Haplogroups to certain specific ethnic groups, historic or present, is often a futile affair, because more often than not we simply do have not the sufficient data.

The question I really have is, to everyone in this thread, why does this discussion about genetics matter here so much to you?

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## Endri

> thought that is mtdna, which is the expression of just a single gene.. haplogroup analysis are useless, all autosomals analysis are the one which count


My point is that since Bulgarians (or at least the Bulgarian here on this forum) say they are the closest relatives to ancient Thracians one (like me) would expect that modern Bulgarians, if not first would at least be one the most compatible with Thracian DNA, but not the last.

But also on a serious side note, i really do not care if Bulgarians are Thracian, Dacian or even superior life forms. I'm just "arguing" for the sake of debate and in hope of learning smth, not cause i care what Bulgarians are.




> *I did not insult a nationality*. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted *by evil Greeks and Kosovars*!All the best!


Sorta contradictory here...don't ya thinks so?

PS: Whose the Kosovar o.O

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## Yaan

> My point is that since Bulgarians (or at least the Bulgarian here on this forum) say they are the closest relatives to ancient Thracians one (like me) would expect that modern Bulgarians, if not first would at least be one the most compatible with Thracian DNA, but not the last.
> 
> But also on a serious side note, i really do not care if Bulgarians are Thracian, Dacian or even superior life forms. I'm just "arguing" for the sake of debate and in hope of learning smth, not cause i care what Bulgarians are.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorta contradictory here...don't ya thinks so?
> 
> PS: Whose the Kosovar o.O


 People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace. 
The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not! 
Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav
I do not care about Albanians either, but Albanian in a topic about Thrace is like a Bulgarian in a topic about Vikings, out of place! Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!

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## Diurpaneus

I used Eupedia's terms for Cernavoda culture(R1b) and Catacomb culture (R1a) 
to distinguish those people.
I'm not suggesting that the Paleo-Balkanic people were a R1a/R1b mix who had nothing to do with other haplogroups.
On the contrary.

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## Endri

> People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace. 
> The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not! 
> Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
> Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
> Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
> Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav


1) Ancient Thrace was a lot more that just the area that includes today.
2) Albanians (Kosovars included), as far as i know by actual history and historical books (not proganda) until the day we're speaking the most plausible theory of our origin is of Thraco-Illyrian origin. 
3) You do realize that in Albanian exist words of Thraco-Dacian origin? An example is the word "Kec", while the native albanian word for this word would be "Kedh" (directly from PIE) but both words co-exist.




> Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!


Wait a second,  :Shocked: ...are you using the word "Kosovar" as an insult? WOW just WOW  :Disappointed:

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## Yetos

> People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace. 
> The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not! 
> Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
> Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
> Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
> Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav
> I do not care about Albanians either, but Albanian in a topic about Thrace is like a Bulgarian in a topic about Vikings, out of place! Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!



in another post you claimed that E-V13 is Thracian DNA and Thracians were primary of this,
Let me inform you that E-V13 has its bigger concentrations in S. Greece and in Kossyfo, 
that means that if your claim is correct, then Greeks Albanians and South Serbs are more Thracians than modern Bulgarians,

don't get the false Idea that only Odrysse were the only Thracians, cause Triballii (serbs) Paionians(Fyrom), and Albocense (origin of Albanians) were also Thracians, as also Historical nations such as Visigoths and Ostrogoths (read Stabo) 
in Fact the tomb DNA gives R1b (it was never Turkish) and R1a although I HG plays significant role in what you might say as Thracians

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## Taranis

> in another post you claimed that E-V13 is Thracian DNA and Thracians were primary of this,
> Let me inform you that E-V13 has its bigger concentrations in S. Greece and in Kossyfo, 
> that means that if your claim is correct, then Greeks Albanians and South Serbs are more Thracians than modern Bulgarians,
> 
> don't get the false Idea that only Odrysse were the only Thracians, cause Triballii (serbs) Paionians(Fyrom), and Albocense (origin of Albanians) were also Thracians, as also Historical nations such as Visigoths and Ostrogoths (read Stabo) 
> in Fact the tomb DNA gives R1b (it was never Turkish) and R1a although I HG plays significant role in what you might say as Thracians


I'd like to point out that E-V13 has been found in that Neolithic sample from Iberia, and in my opinion, E-V13 on the Balkans is very likely of Neolithic origin, and as thus impossible to be tied with any specific ethnic group from the Balkans - either modern or from Classical Antiquity.

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## mihaitzateo

The national pride in Romania and Bulgaria says that romanians and bulgarians are the descendants of thracians.
First question is,if this is true,why is the percentage of red haired with blue eyes (I am in and from Romania and still did not saw anyone red haired with blue eyes) so low?
Red haired gene is transmited,I would be curious if some test would be done to see how many of the romanians and bulgarians have the red hair gene.
The vikings are known to have a lot of red heads.
Also,in both Romanian and Bulgarian history no one remembers about Zamolxis,which was a law givers to thracians.Sure after 1850 or so,some romanians started to "remember" about Zamolxis,but there are no popular traditions here to talk about Zamolxis.
In fact is very likely that those romanians read in history about the presence of thracians and dacians here,they made the suposition romanians are the descendants of those people;after they read in history about Zamolxis,so they said Zamolxis should have been some law giver to dacians.
However,what happened with those laws?
Since the goths,who were where today Romania and Bulgaria is ,between 250-500 or so,are known to have a gothic law,which is very likely from the laws Zamolxis gave them.
In south Sweden,from where the goths are,Carolus Lundius is writing a book called "Zamolxis first law giver of gets" ( Zamolxis primus getarum legislator ) around 1687.
In Snorri Sturluson Prose edda,Odin is said to come from Troy.Prose Edda was written in the year 1220.
Snorri Sturluson wrote another poem,Poetic Edda,which contains a set of moral teachings,how someone should behave righteous called Hávamál or Hovamol.These are said to be given by Odin.
The connection come fast,this code was given by Zamolxis,and Odin inherited also this code,in case Odin and Zamolxis are not same person.

And there are enough of others proofs,that romanians and bulgarians are not the descendants of thracians.I mean they are a little ,but only genetically.
I found 4 samples of Y dna from R1a1 from familytreedna,from 13 samples,from Bulgaria,that were identical with norse R1a1 dna,on 12 markers (did not had more markers,those markers are ) with some R1a1 from Norway.
The markers were:
DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385a,DYS385b,DYS426, DYS388,DYS439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II
4 out of 13 samples,it makes maximum 5% of Y DNA in Bulgaria thracian (considering that is a sample from which you can make conclusion for all Bulgaria and that Bulgaria have around 20% R1a1).
However,if you look at how Norway,Sweden,Iceland,Denmark are today,very righteous people,etc is clearly that they are the real and *only* descendants of thracians and not Romania and Bulgaria,where corruption is between highest in Europe and so on.
Sure,in Romania and Bulgaria things could change in better also,is up to us,the people who live here to do this.

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## mihaitzateo

How can some people say that E-V13 is thracian haplogrup?
Is clearly,a very advanced population who came here in Europe,who knows from where,bearing a lot of them E-V13 on paternal line,very likely some of the greeks.
In Greece,is said that E-V13 have the maximum,35%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HgE1b1b1a2.png
The greeks had the first University in Europe,when other people did not even knew to write,they had towns and so on,when others barely had any houses etc.

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## Endri

> How can some people say that E-V13 is thracian haplogrup?
> Is clearly,a very advanced population who came here in Europe,who knows from where,bearing a lot of them E-V13 on paternal line,very likely some of the greeks.
> In Greece,is said that E-V13 have the maximum,35%.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HgE1b1b1a2.png
> The greeks had the first University in Europe,when other people did not even knew to write,they had towns and so on,when others barely had any houses etc.


Are you like serious? E-V13 belongs to a VERY advanced population? Like for real?

You do realize that E-V13 entered the Balkan peninsula in the late mesolithic or early neolithic? Which is roughly in Europe about 9000-10000 years ago (7000-8000 BC)? At that time didn't exist any "VERY" advanced population, in fact, population as you imagine it didn't exist at all. There were no Greeks, Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians ect.

PS: Actually that map shows that the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Albania lol
PPS: From the same site as your pic the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Kosovar Albanians of ~43.85% then in Greeks from Sesklo/Dimini/Lerna/Franchthi (not Greeks as whole but just this area) with about 35.1% and then Albanians from Albania with 32.29%

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## Taranis

> How can some people say that E-V13 is thracian haplogrup?
> Is clearly,a very advanced population who came here in Europe,who knows from where,bearing a lot of them E-V13 on paternal line,very likely some of the greeks.
> In Greece,is said that E-V13 have the maximum,35%.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HgE1b1b1a2.png*The greeks had the first University in Europe,when other people did not even knew to write,they had towns and so on,when others barely had any houses etc.*


*Seriously dude, where did you get that from? Your knowledge of history is completely distorted?!* I'm not even sure where I'm supposed to start.

:43:

- The Greeks didn't have universities. Even though they put a focus on education and literacy, the concept of _universities_ didn't come into the existence until the late medieval ages.

- The Greeks clearly weren't the first to write. The Greek got their alphabet from the Phoenicians, who had writing centuries before them. Interestingly however, the Greeks actually could write centuries before that. The Mycenean civilization used to write an earlier form of the Greek language using the so-called Linear B syllabic script, but this script fell out of use during the Bronze Age Collapse, and there was a period of approximately 300-400 years during which the Greeks were illiterate. Does that make the Greeks first? No, because the Myceneans did get their writing system from the Minoans. 

- The first to invent writing were the Sumerians (with their cuneiform script), and a few centuries later the Egyptians (with their hieroglyphics). All this happened thousands of years before the Greeks.

- The Greeks were certainly not the first to build houses or cities, either. The city of Çatal Hüyük in Anatolia was built around 9500 years ago.

The ancient Greeks deserve quite bit of credit, but not that much.

Also, I must say find this statement about "advanced people" borderline racist. Apart from that Y-Haplogroups only concern the Y-DNA, they have no effect whatsoever on outward appearance or other physical attributes.

Seriously though. Back to the school bench with you!




> Are you like serious? E-V13 belongs to a VERY advanced population? Like for real?
> 
> You do realize that E-V13 entered the Balkan peninsula in the late mesolithic or early neolithic? Which is roughly in Europe about 9000-10000 years ago (7000-8000 BC)? At that time didn't exist any "VERY" advanced population, in fact, population as you imagine it didn't exist at all. There were no Greeks, Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians ect.
> 
> PS: Actually that map shows that the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Albania lol
> PPS: From the same site as your pic the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Kosovar Albanians of ~43.85% then in Greeks from Sesklo/Dimini/Lerna/Franchthi (not Greeks as whole but just this area) with about 35.1% and then Albanians from Albania with 32.29%


Indeed, E-V13 has been in Europe since the Neolithic. You may be interested into checking out this thread, *it concerns the finding of Y-Haplogroups E-V13 amongst the Neolithic population of Iberia around ca. 5000 BC*.

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## Yetos

> The national pride in Romania and Bulgaria says that romanians and bulgarians are the descendants of thracians.
> First question is,if this is true,why is the percentage of red haired with blue eyes (I am in and from Romania and still did not saw anyone red haired with blue eyes) so low?
> Red haired gene is transmited,I would be curious if some test would be done to see how many of the romanians and bulgarians have the red hair gene.
> The vikings are known to have a lot of red heads.
> Also,in both Romanian and Bulgarian history no one remembers about Zamolxis,which was a law givers to thracians.Sure after 1850 or so,some romanians started to "remember" about Zamolxis,but there are no popular traditions here to talk about Zamolxis.
> In fact is very likely that those romanians read in history about the presence of thracians and dacians here,they made the suposition romanians are the descendants of those people;after they read in history about Zamolxis,so they said Zamolxis should have been some law giver to dacians.
> However,what happened with those laws?
> Since the goths,who were where today Romania and Bulgaria is ,between 250-500 or so,are known to have a gothic law,which is very likely from the laws Zamolxis gave them.
> In south Sweden,from where the goths are,Carolus Lundius is writing a book called "Zamolxis first law giver of gets" ( Zamolxis primus getarum legislator ) around 1687.
> ...


with out the part of corruption I agree that Thracians moved West and North,

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## Yetos

> Are you like serious? E-V13 belongs to a VERY advanced population? Like for real?
> 
> You do realize that E-V13 entered the Balkan peninsula in the late mesolithic or early neolithic? Which is roughly in Europe about 9000-10000 years ago (7000-8000 BC)? At that time didn't exist any "VERY" advanced population, in fact, population as you imagine it didn't exist at all. There were no Greeks, Thracians, Dacians, Illyrians ect.
> 
> PS: Actually that map shows that the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Albania lol
> PPS: From the same site as your pic the highest percentage of E-V13 is found in Kosovar Albanians of ~43.85% then in Greeks from Sesklo/Dimini/Lerna/Franchthi (not Greeks as whole but just this area) with about 35.1% and then Albanians from Albania with 32.29%


Nope that is in Iberia Spain, 

The Balkan E-V13 is Chalcolithic Copper era. it is Levantine Arcadocypriot, 

until today I did not heard of any found of E-V13 ancient than Mycenee in Balkans, 
maybe I am wrong, 
But the Iberian E is tottaly different from Bakan E
Balkanic E is a maritime, is brought by sea not by foot,
and is much younger than Neolithic, instead of Iberian which is Neolithic,

----------


## Yetos

> *Seriously dude, where did you get that from? Your knowledge of history is completely distorted?!* I'm not even sure where I'm supposed to start. :43: - The Greeks didn't have universities. Even though they put a focus on education and literacy, the concept of _universities_ didn't come into the existence until the late medieval ages. - The Greeks clearly weren't the first to write. The Greek got their alphabet from the Phoenicians, who had writing centuries before them. Interestingly however, the Greeks actually could write centuries before that. The Mycenean civilization used to write an earlier form of the Greek language using the so-called Linear B syllabic script, but this script fell out of use during the Bronze Age Collapse, and there was a period of approximately 300-400 years during which the Greeks were illiterate. Does that make the Greeks first? No, because the Myceneans did get their writing system from the Minoans. - The first to invent writing were the Sumerians (with their cuneiform script), and a few centuries later the Egyptians (with their hieroglyphics). All this happened thousands of years before the Greeks. - The Greeks were certainly not the first to build houses or cities, either. The city of Çatal Hüyük in Anatolia was built around 9500 years ago. Also, I must say find this statement about "advanced people" borderline racist. Apart from that Y-Haplogroups only concern the Y-Haplogroups. Seriously though. Back to the school bench with you! Indeed, E-V13 has been in Europe since the Neolithic. You may be interested into checking out this thread, *it concerns the finding of Y-Haplogroups E-V13 amongst the Neolithic population of Iberia around ca. 5000 BC*.


 Nope, The Iberian E-V13 is tottaly different fron Balcanic E-V13 
the Iberian E is a North African while the Balcanic is a A cypriot-Levantine, 
By what I know settlements in Cyprus at least Choirokitia Χοιροκοιτια is considered the most Ancient, 
About Phoenician Alphabet only phnological sounds exist, Greek alphaber has another meaning than alef and Beth (ox and house) but a pray to Sun, 
IT IS THE SAME SIMILARITY WITH GOTHS AND GETAE, 
WHY ALEF BECOMES ALFA AND NOT GETAE- GOTHS you know that no E-V13 found earlier neolithic in Balkans until today no neolithic E-V13 found in Balkans, E-V13 is a maritime entrance Arcado-cypriot at the time of chalkos chalkolithic-early copper in Balkans,
Battaglia makes it clear
E-v13 might brought Akkadian-Ugarit Alphabet. the same that Phoenician used, Cadmus brother of Phoenix broither of Aigyptos the 3 areas of E-V13 in which Balkan E-V13 belongs, not the Iberian E-V13 but the Levantine, 
Iberia from Greece is a very long distance even with boat

thank you 

Now about the University, IF ALENDREIA AND PERGAMOS BIBLIOTEQUE WAS NOT UNIVERSITY OF TODAY THEN WHAT WAS IT? THEON WAS A TEACHER AT ALEXANDREIA NOT A WRITER. Hypateia is mentioned as Teacher-PHD in alexandreia, What was the difference of Biblioteque with modern Universities? yes I know modern universities know Algebra a Arab (E-V13?) invention of expressing maths what is the difference? teachers students, masters acolyte epikoyroi write and write books again again, observe write-down and make modeling *
what is the difference? of a Biblioteque with a university?* 

Indeed the Greeks were not the oldest who Build houses,
But the Greeks are the First who used Iron to reignforce the stone, and hold the εφελκυσμος (tensile stresses) and the first who avoid the Arc-dome style houses, which return with Christianity, and THE FIRST WHO BROUGHT WATER IN THE HOUSE and not around or in the city 
as romans the first who used concrete (although with 6 eggs per cubic Πηχυς (0,56^3)) 

PS if Alphabet is Phoenician there it may be E-V13 or J2 invention also   :Laughing:

----------


## mihaitzateo

I think thracians took from greeks seafaring and laws and writing and so on.
Look at greeks,they have stories about seafaring and expedition and other things a lot before vikings and other europeans.
I think also that E-V13 from Greece is brought by sea,I think the greeks even have a tradition with the fact they came into Europe by sea.
It is known that Roman empire had laws also,but they were not identical with the gothic laws,what is the source of Roman empire laws,I have no ideea.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> *Seriously dude, where did you get that from? Your knowledge of history is completely distorted?!* I'm not even sure where I'm supposed to start.
> 
> :43:
> 
> - The Greeks didn't have universities. Even though they put a focus on education and literacy, the concept of _universities_ didn't come into the existence until the late medieval ages.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
Plato (424/423 BC – 348/347 BC) was a Classical Greek philosopher, mathematician, student of Socrates, writer of philosophical dialogues, *and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the Western world. 
*

----------


## Taranis

> Nope, The Iberian E-V13 is tottaly different fron Balcanic E-V13 
> the Iberian E is a North African while the Balcanic is a A cypriot-Levantine, 
> By what I know settlements in Cyprus at least Choirokitia Χοιροκοιτια is considered the most Ancient, 
> About Phoenician Alphabet only phnological sounds exist, Greek alphaber has another meaning than alef and Beth (ox and house) but a pray to Sun, 
> IT IS THE SAME SIMILARITY WITH GOTHS AND GETAE, 
> WHY ALEF BECOMES ALFA AND NOT GETAE- GOTHS you know that no E-V13 found earlier neolithic in Balkans until today no neolithic E-V13 found in Balkans, E-V13 is a maritime entrance Arcado-cypriot at the time of chalkos chalkolithic-early copper in Balkans,
> Battaglia makes it clear
> E-v13 might brought Akkadian-Ugarit Alphabet. the same that Phoenician used, Cadmus brother of Phoenix broither of Aigyptos the 3 areas of E-V13 in which Balkan E-V13 belongs, not the Iberian E-V13 but the Levantine, 
> Iberia from Greece is a very long distance even with boat
> ...


Yetos,

With E-V13, just because it was found at a Neolithic site in Iberia doesn't automatically mean it migrated from there to the Balkans. It just means it was already present in Europe. How many Neolithic or Chalkolithic samples of Y-DNA from the Balkans are there? I'm unaware of any. 

Yetos, do you have a problem with the idea that the Greeks did get their alphabet from the Phoenicians? It's very clear from archaeology that the Greek alphabet is completely unrelated to the earlier Linear B script and the later Phoenician alphabet. The Greeks (in particular Herodotus) even credited the Phoenicians with the invention of the alphabet in their legends.

Regarding universities, _the word itself_ is Latin, not Greek. The institution of "university" itself as we know it today dates from the late Medieval Ages, not from Roman times. As I said:




> *The ancient Greeks deserve quite bit of credit, but not that much.*

----------


## mihaitzateo

The term academy was used in the sense of university,those times and not with the meaning that is used today.
See there,the Academy of Athens if the first institution of *higher learning in Western Europe.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy
Is pretty clear that in Greece there were ppl knowing various sciences,and they were transmiting the knowledge to others.
Take for example Alexandria,that was build after the plans made by some greek arhitect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinocrates
Is pretty logic that he was taught (taught,the past form of the verb teach) by some ppl what he needed to know to do those plans.

----------


## Taranis

> The term academy was used in the sense of university,those times and not with the meaning that is used today.
> See there,the Academy of Athens if the first institution of higher learning in Western Europe.


Greece is not in Western Europe, and if you mean "Western" in the sense of "Western Civilization", _ancient_ Greece wasn't "Western" in any modern sense either even if Western Civilization owes a lot to ancient Greece. I'm not going to discuss this topic any further here, because it has no place here. *It is completely irrelevant to this discussion about the Thracians.
*
To get _somewhat_ back to topic, Haplogroup E-V13 is present in Europe since the Neolithic, it is thus completely futile to try to link it with any ethnic group - from Classical Antiquity or modern. Any of the ethnic groups discussed (Greeks, Thracians, Albanians, Bulgarians, etc.) are younger than the Y-Haplogroup E-V13.

----------


## mihaitzateo

I do not think is irelevant for the discusion of thracians,since is known that thracians were also an advanced civilisation,they had at least Troy,as city.
Who build that city etc?
Is pretty clear that were strong contacts between thracians and greeks.
I do not see anyone posting here about what has been found on Bulgaria teritory,solid proofs of the advanced civilisation the thracians were:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Kazanlak
Take a look at the tallness of the man represented here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...f_Kazanlak.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ka...b-fresco-2.jpg
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Sveshtari
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panagyurishte_Treasure

No one told here about the image of a thracian woman,from tomb of ostrusha,which is colored and is very white skined with red hair,you can see a reproduction of that picture here:
http://wikimapia.org/13295647/The-Te...E2%80%9D-Mound

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## Yetos

> I do not think is irelevant for the discusion of thracians,since is known that thracians were also an advanced civilisation,they had at least Troy,as city.
> Who build that city etc?
> Is pretty clear that were strong contacts between thracians and greeks.
> I do not see anyone posting here about what has been found on Bulgaria teritory,solid proofs of the advanced civilisation the thracians were:
> -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Kazanlak
> Take a look at the tallness of the man represented here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Th...f_Kazanlak.jpg
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ka...b-fresco-2.jpg
> -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Sveshtari
> ...



Troy I am not sure if it was Thracian, But Thracian allied to Troy, 
The case that Achilleus could speak to Troyans but not Myceneans 
as also that the builder was Ilos from Theba where Pelasgians lived
and the rest culture gives us an anatolian non IE population,
possible connected with Thyrrenians, Troyans might be the ones Greeks call Pelasgians,

----------


## Diurpaneus

Here is my proposed haplogroups for different cultures in the Thracian area:


R1b-steppe people
R1a-Globular Amphora


mostly E-v13: Vinca,Balkan-Anatolian group
I2a,G2a- Linear Pottery group
J?- Gumelnita group

There are some cultures from the Lower Danube/western Black Sea who seems to be of Anatolian origin like:
Dudesti,Hamangia,Salcuta,Krivodol,Karanovo 
Bronze Age cultures like Glina-Schnekenberg,Tei,Monteoru kept those neolithic features.
So this people could have substantial haplogroup J?

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...-neolithic.htm


http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...-neolithic.htm


http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...ion-bronze.htm


Following Zanipolo's idea a I2a1b Dinaric/Disles split whithin the R1b triangle:Baden,Vucedol,Cotofeni would make a lot of sense.
Whether it came from Baden or Cucuteni-Tripolie+Yamna I2a1b has to do with R1b so it's Thraco-Illyrian.

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...ion-bronze.htm




http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...istory-pre.htm

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos,
> 
> With E-V13, just because it was found at a Neolithic site in Iberia doesn't automatically mean it migrated from there to the Balkans. It just means it was already present in Europe. How many Neolithic or Chalkolithic samples of Y-DNA from the Balkans are there? I'm unaware of any. 
> 
> Yetos, do you have a problem with the idea that the Greeks did get their alphabet from the Phoenicians? It's very clear from archaeology that the Greek alphabet is completely unrelated to the earlier Linear B script and the later Phoenician alphabet. The Greeks (in particular Herodotus) even credited the Phoenicians with the invention of the alphabet in their legends.
> 
> Regarding universities, _the word itself_ is Latin, not Greek. The institution of "university" itself as we know it today dates from the late Medieval Ages, not from Roman times. As I said:



Yes but Phoenician say and claim as Alphabet is given to them by Kadmus καδμος. 
that means that Kdmos was not Phoenician neither Greek (IE), then what he was. 
Brother of Phoenix Brother of Aigyptos so? an Ethiopean? or an Arkado-cypriot? a Syrrian? a Carian? a Libuan? 

most sure is that Ugaretic Alphabet, or the code Sinai,

----------


## Taranis

> Yes but Phoenician say and claim as Alphabet is given to them by Kadmus καδμος. 
> that means that Kdmos was not Phoenician neither Greek (IE), then what he was. 
> Brother of Phoenix Brother of Aigyptos so? an Ethiopean? or an Arkado-cypriot? a Syrrian? a Carian? a Libuan? 
> 
> most sure is that Ugaretic Alphabet, or the code Sinai,


The Ugaritic Alphabet was a cuneiform-derived script, and it became extinct with the destruction of Ugarit during the Bronze Age Collapse / Sea Peoples invasion. As you can also see, the Ugaritic alphabet bears no obvious similarity with either the Phoenician or the Greek alphabet. The only link with Phoenician is that it it also is a pure consonant alphabet (abjad), and that it has a similar (but not identical) sound inventory which shouldn't be exactly surprising since Ugaritic, like Phoenician, was a Semitic language.

In my opinion, there can be little doubt that the Greek alphabet is derived from the Phoenician alphabet, but you're right in so far that the Phoenicians themselves weren't the inventors. There's earlier, more archaic (Proto-Canaanite) varieties of the alphabet which in my opinion _originally_ derive from or were inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs, which in turn in many ways also behaved like an abjad.

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## Yetos

> The Ugaritic Alphabet was a cuneiform-derived script, and it became extinct with the destruction of Ugarit during the Bronze Age Collapse / Sea Peoples invasion. As you can also see, the Ugaritic alphabet bears no obvious similarity with either the Phoenician or the Greek alphabet. The only link with Phoenician is that it it also is a pure consonant alphabet (abjad), and that it has a similar (but not identical) sound inventory which shouldn't be exactly surprising since Ugaritic, like Phoenician, was a Semitic language.
> 
> In my opinion, there can be little doubt that the Greek alphabet is derived from the Phoenician alphabet, but you're right in so far that the Phoenicians themselves weren't the inventors. There's earlier, more archaic (Proto-Canaanite) varieties of the alphabet which in my opinion _originally_ derive from or were inspired by the Egyptian hieroglyphs, which in turn in many ways also behaved like an abjad.


Interesting, is there any link publications ISo etc?

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## Diurpaneus

> And there are enough of others proofs,that romanians and bulgarians are not the descendants of thracians.


On Romanian Forum they call you Fane(Steven).Everyone knows you have Hungarian nationality,Romanian citizenship .You also change your username.To make myself clear:i don't mind, but your distorsions aren't tolerated.I wonder when you'll present your favourite theories:1)Romanians are Semitic Vlachs-haplogroup J2b;their origin is Albania2)Romanians are southern Italians(including Sicilians)-this is my favourite

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## uguner

> Balkar and Bulgar is not the same!
> Nobody from Ukraine settled the Balkan, it was much later when the barbarians of Svetoslav come. Apparently you know nothing about Bulgaria. Russia did not exist at this time. Ukrane is younger than Bulgaria. 
> Stop speaking about Balkar and Turks.
> Bulgars were J2a ,R1a Iranian warriors! 
> Learn some Bulgarian and Balkan history and then we can talk!Have a nice day!


However, my both grand mother and grand father were refugees from Byala Slatina, Bulgaria to Gonan, Turkey after 1877-1878 Turko-Russo War and they were mostly speaking Ukrainian.

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## dardanoilir

[QUOTE=Yaan;391990]People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace. 
The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not! 
Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav
I do not care about Albanians either, but Albanian in a topic about Thrace is like a Bulgarian in a topic about Vikings, out of place! Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes![/QUOT
pls don't put my beautiful Kosovo Albanian people in the same category with greeks

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## uguner

However, what we see now dna of the Turkic people are not similar to each other. We may not think that Turks are descending from the same origin like only Q. 


> Bulgars never come from Turkey you are completely wrong. Bulgars come first from what is today Tajikistan and Uzbekistan,then they settled in European Russia and finally in the 4-7 century they come to the Balkan.They mixed with the South Slavs which were mix of Slavic R1a,I2a people and local J2b,E(V13) people. The Bulgars themselves were R1a,J2 and G2a people with probably some R1b! 
> So there is the propaganda that Bulgars were Turkic,but I do not believe this and there is no prove!In Bulgarians Turkic genes such as C,D,O are non existing and Q is 1% even though I have never seen a research with a Q in it! 
> Bulgarians are mix of Bulgar,Slavic and Thracian!
> Albanians are mix of Iliriyan, Thracian and some Slavic!
> It is so funny how Albanians try to privatized the right to be the only indigenous people to the Balkan and haplogorup E(V13)
> Just like some crazy Croat here forced the moderator to change the Bulgarians values for I2a(between 28%-38%,here it was 33%,so the moderator was forced to change them to 20% ,because the Croat was unhappy! 
> Guys it does not work like this!

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## Yaan

> However, my both grand mother and grand father were refugees from Byala Slatina, Bulgaria to Gonan, Turkey after 1877-1878 Turko-Russo War and they were mostly speaking Ukrainian.


Ukrainian?? Not true! They were either Bulgarian Muslims called Pomak(in Byala Slatina there was never Turks), or they were Crimean Tatars and spoke Russian. 
I mean only half of the Ukrainians in Ukraine speak Ukrainian(most speak Russian) lo let alone that Turks from Bulgaria would be speak Ukrainian. 
Turks in Bulgarian mostly speak Turkish, there is also some that are actually Bulgarian Muslims and speak Bulgarian and some are assimilated Tatars and Cherkez, but also speak Turkish.

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## adamo

The thracians, with their red auburn hair, to me, where a southernmost extension of Romanian Dacian types, they where I1b in my opinion.

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## Yaan

> The thracians, with their red auburn hair, to me, where a southernmost extension of Romanian Dacian types, they where I1b in my opinion.


There is no proof that they were with red hair or even if they were that all of them were with red hair. Red hair is not connected to a y chr, and if it was it would have been some R1b or J2, not I1. 
Everything in this world says that they were E-V13,R1b-L23 and J2b2, they may have had another thing as well. E-V13 and R1b-L23 and J2b2 are big where they used to live and in todays Bulgarians we see them. If u exclude R1a-M458,R1a-Z280 which should have been from Slavs, as well as the Slavic gene I2a-Din, these are genes big in Bulgarians. Pomaks are Bulgarian Muslims claiming to be the most Thracian in the world. I know of 3 tested, one is R1b-L23, one is E-V13 and one is R1a(not sure which subtype). 
That R1b-L23,E-V13 and J2b2 are the Balkan genes identified with Thrachians is no brainer!

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## Yaan

Also out of the bodies found and examined one woman was Med and one men was Nordic.

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## adamo

Sorry but NO J2 lineage creates red hair, unless mixed with mtdna H or U females, J2 in an appropriately "middle eastern" setting mixing with N and R lineages of Anatolia/Iran would never create red hair.

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## kamani

> Sorry but NO J2 lineage creates red hair, unless mixed with mtdna H or U females, J2 in an appropriately "middle eastern" setting mixing with N and R lineages of Anatolia/Iran would never create red hair.


correct. Thracian mtdna would have been european but their ydna ~50% middle-eastern, which makes them only 25% middle-eastern. So they could have not been as redhead as the english, lets say. But lets not forget, they were redhead according to the Greeks..
Another thing to think about**: European Jews were known in the middle ages for a high percentage of redheads, so somehow middle-eastern mixed with european produces a lot of redheads.

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## Yaan

> Sorry but NO J2 lineage creates red hair, unless mixed with mtdna H or U females, J2 in an appropriately "middle eastern" setting mixing with N and R lineages of Anatolia/Iran would never create red hair.


Y DNA creates nothing, u should learn this or stop with genetics :) 
And there is not such thing as Middle Eastern DNA plus J2b2 is 100% European one of the IE markers! 
It is normal not to know, but at least learn.

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## adamo

Thanks for stating the obvious "J2b originated In The Balkans", please yaan, piss off before I write something offensive to you lol, you've been "up my hind quarters" for the past 3 months telling me things I already know so have a nice day, good sir.

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## Yaan

> Thanks for stating the obvious "J2b originated In The Balkans", please yaan, piss off before I write something offensive to you lol, you've been "up my hind quarters" for the past 3 months telling me things I already know so have a nice day, good sir.


U do not know a lot of things and keep on spreading lies and not verified things. Learn something before posting.

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## adamo

Read my "haplogroups of the world" and then say that again, " u do not know a lot of things" says the man that writes u instead of you, what does your statement mean anyways, is it just a "general" statement?

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## RHAS

"Cruciani et al.’s E-V13 and J2-M12 coalescence times bear a striking similarity to carbon-14-based date calculations for certain archaeological sites in the Maritsa river valley and its tributaries, near the city of Nova Zagora, Bulgaria (Nilolova, 2002). These sites are associated directly with the proto-Thracian culture of the southern Balkans that came to dominate the region during the first millennium BCE. Sites surveyed included Ezero, Yunatsite, Dubene-Sarovka and Plovdiv-Nebet Tepe, all of which had deep associations with the developing EBA proto-Thracian culture of the region."
*Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin.
*http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

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## Noman

Cathars were mainly bulgarians who migrated west, and bulgarians fought endlessly againt the ottomans in revolts, so I doubt there's much continuity at this point.

Sadly it seems most the redheaded people of the world chose death over lack of freedom.

And when j2 is proved founder of thrace or greece, that's a laugh.

----------


## RHAS



----------


## RHAS

"The cis-Caspian, trans-Caucasian R-M269 population followed an early (late 4th millennium, early 3rd millennium?) expansion into Europe, probably together with J2 in the Balkans (Graeco-Phrygian, perhaps Thracian), and arriving in the form of Bell Beakers in Western Europe (Italo-Celtic), as well as a later (2nd-1st millennium BC?) expansion to the east (Tocharians) "
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...e-in-east.html

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## Garrick

> Albanians especially Tosk also have a lot of Slavic genes(R1a and I2a)!


You are right, Tosk Albanians and Geg Albanians are quite different. For example according to Ferri at al. (2010, Springer) Tosk Albanians have 25,6% I haplogroup, from which over 20% is I2a2, but Geg Albanians have very small percetanges I2a2, according Pericic et al. Kosovo Albanians (they are almost all Geg Albanians) have only 2,65% I2a2.

And MDS scaling locates Tosk Albanians very close to Greeks and close other Balkans nations: Serbs, Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from Former Yugoslav Republic not Aegean Macedonians), Bosniacs, Romanians, Bulgarians. On the other hands Geg Albanians are close to Egiptians and Lebanese (Ferri et al., 2010 and Regueiro et al. 2012).

MDS scaling Ferri et al. (Geg or Gheg Albanians close to Egyptians)

WvvUI5C.jpg
MDS scaling Regueiro et al. Geg Albanians (Kosovo Albanians KoAL) close to Lebanese

rppScEb.jpg

----------


## FBS

No, they are closer to Italians in the table.

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## Luan

> You are right, Tosk Albanians and Geg Albanians are quite different. For example according to Ferri at al. (2010, Springer) Tosk Albanians have 25,6% I haplogroup, from which over 20% is I2a2, but Geg Albanians have very small percetanges I2a2, according Pericic et al. Kosovo Albanians (they are almost all Geg Albanians) have only 2,65% I2a2.
> 
> And MDS scaling locates Tosk Albanians very close to Greeks and close other Balkans nations: Serbs, Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from Former Yugoslav Republic not Aegean Macedonians), Bosniacs, Romanians, Bulgarians. On the other hands Geg Albanians are close to Egiptians and Lebanese (Ferri et al., 2010 and Regueiro et al. 2012).
> 
> MDS scaling Ferri et al. (Geg or Gheg Albanians close to Egyptians)
> 
> WvvUI5C.jpg
> MDS scaling Regueiro et al. Geg Albanians (Kosovo Albanians KoAL) close to Lebanese
> 
> rppScEb.jpg


You again, I told you already e-v13 is European Clade and and south of Greece has the same amount of e-v13. Its been in Europe 7000 years or so. Serb will try anything to claim kosova. And Ferri didnt even mention south of greece high E-v13. give something up to date.

----------


## Garrick

> You again. I told you already e-v13 is European Clade and and south of Greece has the same amount of e-v13. Its been in Europe 7000 years or so. Serb will try anything to claim kosova. And Ferri didnt even mention south of greece high E-v13. give something up to date.


What do you want to say?

Yaan is right, he knows, Tosks and Gegs have significant differences, researches show this. If you have some new study you can post to see everyone, if you do not have, why do you ask such questions, we're talking about science and researches, not about politics.

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## Sile

> You are right, Tosk Albanians and Geg Albanians are quite different. For example according to Ferri at al. (2010, Springer) Tosk Albanians have 25,6% I haplogroup, from which over 20% is I2a2, but Geg Albanians have very small percetanges I2a2, according Pericic et al. Kosovo Albanians (they are almost all Geg Albanians) have only 2,65% I2a2.
> 
> And MDS scaling locates Tosk Albanians very close to Greeks and close other Balkans nations: Serbs, Upper Macedonians (Macedonians from Former Yugoslav Republic not Aegean Macedonians), Bosniacs, Romanians, Bulgarians. On the other hands Geg Albanians are close to Egiptians and Lebanese (Ferri et al., 2010 and Regueiro et al. 2012).
> 
> MDS scaling Ferri et al. (Geg or Gheg Albanians close to Egyptians)
> 
> WvvUI5C.jpg
> MDS scaling Regueiro et al. Geg Albanians (Kosovo Albanians KoAL) close to Lebanese
> 
> rppScEb.jpg


so, Tosks could have a lot of epirotes as well?

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## Ike

> Serb will try anything to claim kosova.


We don't have to do anything. Every building on Kosovo is a proof that Serbs were there for centuries. Where are Albanian remnants? Anything in Albanian language older than 200 years?

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## Garrick

> No, they are closer to Italians in the table.


To Calabrians closer than Egyptians in this table.

Someone can see genetic history of the Italians and distribution maps of Y-DNA haplogroups in Italy:
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

It is interesting that Arbreshe emigrated to Calabria (and Apulia). Can you write about it.

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## Nobody1

Arbereshe:*

Adrian Fortescue* - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
_It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts. 
The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres._***_
In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it. 
When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came. 
Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule. 
The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos._ 
***_These were the sons of Demetrio Reres. who had led the Albanian forces for Alphonsus. His diploma is printed by Rodota iii, 52-53. 
The name Reres occurs constantly among the Albanians in Italy._


*Boattini et al 2011* - Y-DNA Hg's
_Within this genetic landscape, the Arbereshe are characterized by two peculiarities: (a) they are a clear outlier in the Italian genetic background, showing a strong genetic affinity with southern Balkans populations; and (b) they retain a high degree of genetic diversity.....These results support the hypothesis that the surname-chosen Arbereshe are representative of the Y-chromosome genetic variability of the Albanian founder population.
_

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## FBS

@Ike
Logic and intelligence stop working when the hatred takes over.

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## Ike

That's a well known fact, but it doesn't answer my question. 
Especially when we're talking about history here, and some are claiming "Dardanian or Illyrian descent", I'd like to see some proofs.

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## Garrick

> @Ike
> Logic and intelligence stop working when the hatred takes over.


This is no political thread (politics topics are in European News and Hot Topics). We here are trying to grasp hard issues movements carriers of haplogroups in past, when didn't exist nations and state boundaries, and unfortunately no records. New researches us move forward a bit and highlight some of the unknown, but we needs a lot of studies, resources and time, until we get a more complete picture.




> Arbereshe:*
> 
> Adrian Fortescue* - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
> _It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts. 
> The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres._***_
> In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it. 
> When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came. 
> Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule. 
> The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos._ 
> ...


Thanks for exhaustive response.

For me it is interesting that Arbereshe have high I, if we assume that I1 is about 5%, it means that I2a2 is about 17%, it is much higher compared with Geg Albanians, according Pericic et al. Kosovo Albanians (Geg Albanians) have I2a2 2,65%.

It is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe. Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.

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## MOESAN

> "The cis-Caspian, trans-Caucasian R-M269 population followed an early (late 4th millennium, early 3rd millennium?) expansion into Europe, probably together with J2 in the Balkans (Graeco-Phrygian, perhaps Thracian), and arriving in the form of Bell Beakers in Western Europe (Italo-Celtic), as well as a later (2nd-1st millennium BC?) expansion to the east (Tocharians) "
> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/...e-in-east.html


all that is possible... but we have to explain the very big dicotomy between Y-R1b and Y-J2 in Western Europe (among Celts and Basques, by example), if these two HGs were arrived one together in S-E Europe...

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## MOESAN

OR: two "waves" of R1b-M269, one North Caspian, one Anatolian >> Balkans, along with Y-J2 from same geographical origin - the first ones developped very downstream SNPs around the Alps when the second ones, without big demography, did not go over the L23 SNP??? but as a whole, I prefer my first answer: no evident link between Y-R1b and Y-J2 (of any sort) bearer populations

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## MOESAN

we need more regional studies: 'Bulgarian', 'Romanian', 'Albanians' are terms covering variated regions where impacts of History were not always the same ones... the mountains and plains of Romania were not inhabited exactly by the same folks, even if they share nowaday the same "national" culture; the same for a lot of countries in Europe and elsewhere

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## FBS

> This is no political thread (politics topics are in European News and Hot Topics).


Precisely. And the thread is about Thracinas, not Albanians nor Arbëresh who are much later etnonyms. So offenses like of Ikes that are not based in historical nor scientific evidence have no place in this thread especially when they have nothing to do with the Thracians.

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## Ike

I made no offense. 
Luan is the one who started with political accusations in #97, and I asked for counter arguments.

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## Garrick

> Precisely. And the thread is about Thracinas, not Albanians nor Arbëresh who are much later etnonyms. So offenses like of Ikes that are not based in historical nor scientific evidence have no place in this thread especially when they have nothing to do with the Thracians.


Y-DNA is an essential tool. Based on the results we are trying to reconstruct facts about peoples and movements. If we speak about Thracians, all Balkan people (and not only Balkan) are important. You can see that in this forum there are different opinions about of Thracian haplogroups. There is opinion their main haplogroup is E1b1b (E-V13) and maybe with J2, there is another opinion main Thracian haplogroups are I2a2 and R1a. We are trying to find out as much as possible, and each haplogroups studies, for this topic especially studies of Balkan people, are valuable to us.

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## Garrick

> we need more regional studies: 'Bulgarian', 'Romanian', 'Albanians' are terms covering variated regions where impacts of History were not always the same ones... the mountains and plains of Romania were not inhabited exactly by the same folks, even if they share nowaday the same "national" culture; the same for a lot of countries in Europe and elsewhere


Yes, we need more studies for Balkan region (all countries and peoples). You can see that there are diametrically opposed opinions about Thracian haplogroups, one opinion is E1b1b (+J2), another opinion is I2a2 and R1a. Integrated opinion is mix all the above and possible some branch of R1b.

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## Sile

> Y-DNA is an essential tool. Based on the results we are trying to reconstruct facts about peoples and movements. If we speak about Thracians, all Balkan people (and not only Balkan) are important. You can see that in this forum there are different opinions about of Thracian haplogroups. There is opinion their main haplogroup is E1b1b (E-V13) and maybe with J2, there is another opinion main Thracian haplogroups are I2a2 and R1a. We are trying to find out as much as possible, and each haplogroups studies, for this topic especially studies of Balkan people, are valuable to us.


since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555

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## FBS

> since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.
> 
> http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555


 No it says as follows, quote:
The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

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## Ike

> since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.
> 
> http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555


Same thinking here. I think Kosovars (with E-V13 majority) have nothing to do with Albanians.

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## FBS

> Same thinking here. I think Kosovars (with E-V13 majority) have nothing to do with Albanians.


No, read above in my quoted text, it says the opposite for Albanians from Albania and Kosovo. Quite tightly related.

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## Ike

Of course they are related - similar genetics, culture, language, history. But correlation is higher in North Albania, and gets lower when you enter central and southern. That's where we have a prevalence of other haplogroups. If you exclude Kosovar's E-V13 from Albanian gene pool you get a nice J and R1 arrangement. It doesn't mean the theory is true. Future analysis will reveal more facts.

It would be helpful if we knew a bit more about history of Albanian language, or have more remnants/scripts of Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian. If E-V13 were the carries or current Albanian language, and if they came from Levant/Egypt direction 9 kya, how can it be IE language? I hear different opinions about similarities between Albanian and Berber, but they are not conclusive, and there is no reliable connection. So if we suppose that E-V13 spoke some North African language at that time, they must have lost it in favour of IE language they are talking now. So, who were the speakers of that language that E-V13 are talking today. Were those Thracians, Illyrians?

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## Yaan

There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves. 
E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then. 
The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it

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## Garrick

> There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves. 
> E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then. 
> The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it


Albanian is placed as an Indo-European language. It's a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other language. Questions is whether there are influences of Afro-Asiatic languages (Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc). Logic is that carriers of haplogroup E could not lose all words in their movements from north-east Africa, across the Middle east, to Balkans.

Of course, this is very complex issue, and in such subjects always appear problems of simplifying. So often Western Europeans and Balkans peoples (Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.) go by the logic of simplifying, and they does not mean anything bad. The facts is that E-M78 is family tree for subclade E-V13 (as subclades E-V12, E-V22, etc), and origin E-M78 is north-east Africa (probably Egypt).

You can see Albanian and Arbereshe linguists and researches find link between Albanian and some Afro-Asiatic languages. For example there is a book:

Giuseppe Catapano, _Thot Parlava Albanese_, Bardi Editore, Roma 1984.

He compared the Coptic (Egyptian) and another languages with Albanian.

You have more links in Albanian and Italian, this is one example:

http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/...egisto_05.html

Albanians themselves investigating and it's not taboo. And why? There are Albanians who seek a conections with the Ancient Egyptians and love it.

And all it is right. Seeking the roots is one of the most interesting things for human beings, and it serves this wonderful forum. Again, problems occur in simplifying. But it's hard to avoid in threads and discussions in forums. It's hard for people in every message, reply, topic, to explain for a long time, and simplification always will be exist in Internet.

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## adamo

I had heard that the thracians where a group of red-headed men, my bet is on something more European such as I2 (and they where pale for that matter.) also their area of origin coincides with highs of I2, maybe even R1a.

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## Ike

> There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves.


" Cruciani suggests that E-M78 originated in the region of Egypt and Libya about 18,600 years ago. Battaglia describes Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related subclades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersal from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."

So, they all lived together for about 10.000 years, after which E-V13 ended in Europe. I'm 100% sure that E-V13 spoke the same language as E-V22 and E-V65 during that time (lets call it Proto-Nilean). Was that an IE language? No. Do they speak IE language today? Balkan E-V13 do. 

So, they must have changed their language sometime between 8000 BC and now. Could it be that it just evolved into something IE-ish because of prolonged contact with IE people? Let's say it could change it's nature. But it would have probably kept something through which it could be connected to the old Proto-Nilean. Is there connection between Albanian and Berber language? Albanians claim there is no - it has no connections with languages of Africa. So, Albanian language can't be tracked back to that hypothetical Proto-Nilean. It's a different language - totally they say. 

So, who were the people from which E-V13 picked up Albanian language from? 




> E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then.


How could they be speaking IE language 10 kya in the Nile valley?




> The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it


It's a fact, yes. In the end all R people, and all mentioned above are the fruit of the groins of some Hg F man, so we all have one and the same Grandfather. We're doing this just for fun.

It's funny that we're regarding him with capital F :)

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## Garrick

> So, they must have changed their language sometime between 8000 BC and now. Could it be that it just evolved into something IE-ish because of prolonged contact with IE people? Let's say it could change it's nature. But it would have probably kept something through which it could be connected to the old Proto-Nilean.


Albanian has links with Afro Asiatic languages (in this group are Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc.). You can see there is the book: *Toth spoke Albanian*, by Catapano, published in Rome. Toth was considered one of the most important deities of the Egyptian pantheon

This is translate with Italian (http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/...isto_05.html):

The word _"them"_ in Albanian translates to _mean,_ but also _tell, think, judge._ _"Thotë"_ therefore, wants to d  ire someone _tells, think, judge._ If we take a close look at the attributes of the Egyptian god _Thoth,_ we can not help but notice the great similarity that they have with the Albanian word _thotë (he says)._ 

Thoth is known as the god of wisdom and writing. It is represented with the head of Ibis and, very often, in its representations is also Anubis, the jackal-headed god who had the task of accompanying the deceased before the supreme tribunal of the gods. 

Greek-Roman era, was the god Thoth Hermes Trismegistus, the Mercury of the Romans. Even in this case in the so-called Greek mythology, the name of Hermes Trimegisto is explained through the use of the Albanian language. 

Hermes is _"Err mes",_ which in the dialect of Northern Gheg means: _"I'll kill the darkness"_ or _"He who challenge the darkness", err_ - dark, dark, *mes* - _m (b) ys_ - kill, kill. 

In the beginning, before the Greeks made ​​their appearance, one of the functions of the gods Hermes was the accompaniment of the deceased in their final resting place, ie in the afterlife _(t err,_ darkness, pitch black).





> We're doing this just for fun.


Through discussions and as you say fun people can learn a lot.

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## adamo

E-M81 is berberid (north-west African) and is found frequently across Morocco,Algeria,Tunisia. E-M78 is debated as being the "Somalid" variet or the Egyptian variety, either way , it s found heavily across Egypt and the Horn of Africa; also present in Libya.

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## Elanaar

Hi all,
I'm interested if finding more about my ancestors, like I guess most of us.
I read somewhere that Thracians have red hair? Is that so? Do we have many resources proving that?
I'm with red hair and Bulgarian. My father is Bulgarian, my mum is from Ukraine. I know that to have red hair you have to have parents who are both carriers of the red gene?!! I know for sure that my fathers family is from today's Bulgaria and I could trace something like 5 generations of them. So how come my dad is a carrier of the red gene ( when he is typical Bulgarian with black hair, although some red in the beard) when it's highly uncommon to have red hair in Bulgaria. For instance in my school which was considered as a big school there was just one more person with red hair.

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## Yaan

> Hi all,
> I'm interested if finding more about my ancestors, like I guess most of us.
> I read somewhere that Thracians have red hair? Is that so? Do we have many resources proving that?
> I'm with red hair and Bulgarian. My father is Bulgarian, my mum is from Ukraine. I know that to have red hair you have to have parents who are both carriers of the red gene?!! I know for sure that my fathers family is from today's Bulgaria and I could trace something like 5 generations of them. So how come my dad is a carrier of the red gene ( when he is typical Bulgarian with black hair, although some red in the beard) when it's highly uncommon to have red hair in Bulgaria. For instance in my school which was considered as a big school there was just one more person with red hair.


Black hair is as uncommon in Bulgaria as red. Most Bulgarians have dark brown or brown hair, black hair is observed in Africa and China. Thrachians were not red hairs, we need to test old bones.

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## Yaan

E-V13, J2b2 and R1b-HT35 are all European. I2 is really rare group in Bulgaria and Balkan it is like 0.4% or something.

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## Elanaar

> Black hair is as uncommon in Bulgaria as red. Most Bulgarians have dark brown or brown hair, black hair is observed in Africa and China. Thrachians were not red hairs, we need to test old bones.


Yaan to be precise my dad's hair is not pitch black. By black I mean dark. He may be considered as brown haired I guess.

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## Garrick

> I had heard that the thracians where a group of red-headed men, my bet is on something more European such as I2 (and they where pale for that matter.) also their area of origin coincides with highs of I2, maybe even R1a.


I thought that Thracians were mostly E1b1b1a1. But maybe Maciamo and other forum members are right, that Thracians were I2a1b, or mix with R1a; maybe they were mix all of them. There were many Thrachian tribes in the territories today's Serbia, Bulgaria, east Greece etc.

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## Yaan

> I thought that Thracians were mostly E1b1b1a1. But maybe Maciano and other forum members are right, that Thracians were I2a1b, or mix with R1a; maybe they were mix all of them. There were many Thrachian tribes in the territories today's Serbia, Bulgaria, east Greece etc.


This people follow West Europe propagnada, do not follow. If Thrachians are I2a and R1a then what are the Slavs and where did the biggest Balkan group E-V13 come from, and where did R1b-HT35 come from and J2b2. R1b-HT35 is for sure Thrachian marker it even make sense historically, Thrachians connected to Armenians and Anadolians, J2b2 may be Ancient Greek, but E-V13 is not observed in Balkan where there were Greek colonies that much, in Bulgaria it is the Central and West region where it is really old, Greeks never went there, so it is either from Thrachians or some folk nobody knows how they are called like but they are father of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc.etc. So why call the typcial Slavic Z280 and M458 and I2a-Din Trachian and the obvious Thrachian R1b-HT35 and E-V13 -nothing. Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all :)

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## Yaan

I see, Bulgarians have mostly dark brown and brown hair :) Blond people are maybe 14%-15% but light eyed people(green, blue, green-blue etc) are a lot more 40% or something, it is one of the typcial features dark hair, kinda tanned skin(dark European white, but not always we have light pink individuals as well) and often light or light brown eyes. But y DNA has nothing to do with it. It is ur whole DNA prifile. :)

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## Garrick

> This people follow West Europe propagnada, do not follow. If Thrachians are I2a and R1a then what are the Slavs and where did the biggest Balkan group E-V13 come from, and where did R1b-HT35 come from and J2b2. R1b-HT35 is for sure Thrachian marker it even make sense historically, Thrachians connected to Armenians and Anadolians, J2b2 may be Ancient Greek, but E-V13 is not observed in Balkan where there were Greek colonies that much, in Bulgaria it is the Central and West region where it is really old, Greeks never went there, so it is either from Thrachians or some folk nobody knows how they are called like but they are father of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians etc.etc. So why call the typcial Slavic Z280 and M458 and I2a-Din Trachian and the obvious Thrachian R1b-HT35 and E-V13 -nothing. Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all :)


Greece shows differences among regions. In Peloponnese E1b1b1a1 is founded 35,1%, in Thessaly too.

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## Ike

> Just West Europeans do not want to say E-V13 is Thrachian because then u have old civilization that is not connected with them at all :)


Why would you think that in time of Thracians there was E-V13 peak in the Balkans? Statistics show that they emerged in the last 500-1500 years from a very small population. One can easily imagine an E-V13 gradient from 5% in south Europe to 1 % on North, incorporated in all populations. There is no need to invent new civilizations unless we find some indications that it really existed.

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## Yaan

> Why would you think that in time of Thracians there was E-V13 peak in the Balkans? Statistics show that they emerged in the last 500-1500 years from a very small population. One can easily imagine an E-V13 gradient from 5% in south Europe to 1 % on North, incorporated in all populations. There is no need to invent new civilizations unless we find some indications that it really existed.


E-V13 is far from 5% in the Balkan. U can compare Balkan only with Central Europe and Anatolia a bit with North East Europe and Levant, nothing to do with South Europe(Portugal,Spain etc). Bulgarians are descendant from Thrachians, Slavs and Bulgars so haplogorups are also from one of these three. Goths, Greeks, Tatars, Vikings, Phinicians are just a drop in the see. So E-V13 is from one of the people above. It is easy to imagine I2a and R1a are from the Slavs, so J2,G2a mostly from Bulgars( compare with Volga Tatars), so either E-V13 and R1b-HT35 are hard core Thrachian or nothing in this world makes sense :)

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## Ike

> E-V13 is far from 5% in the Balkan. U can compare Balkan only with Central Europe and Anatolia a bit with North East Europe and Levant, nothing to do with South Europe(Portugal,Spain etc).


Yes, at this time. But I am talking about time 1500 years ago. There was probably no peak in E-V13 percentage in Europe, just a smooth gradient. The entrance point of E-V13 is Balkans, so it's obviously South-east>rest of Europe gradient, no need to involve Portugal in this subject.




> Bulgarians are descendant from Thrachians, Slavs and Bulgars so haplogorups are also from one of these three. Goths, Greeks, Tatars, Vikings, Phinicians are just a drop in the see. So E-V13 is from one of the people above. It is easy to imagine I2a and R1a are from the Slavs, so J2,G2a mostly from Bulgars( compare with Volga Tatars), so either E-V13 and R1b-HT35 are hard core Thrachian or nothing in this world makes sense :)


 If we can't find out who were the Thracians, and we don't know who Albanians are, then it doesn't mean that you should connects those two. Where do you see the connection between Albanian and Thracian language?
Better bet is some R1b branch, before it was IE-ized.





> Albanian has links with Afro Asiatic languages (in this group are Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc.). You can see there is the book: *Toth spoke Albanian*, by Catapano, published in Rome. Toth was considered one of the most important deities of the Egyptian pantheon
> 
> This is translate with Italian (http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/...isto_05.html):


I've read the article. It says that Albanian language didn't change for last 12.000 years, and that it was spoken in Egypt, but it also says it was IE language. How do we reconcile these two? 

BTW someone is giving you negative points for this, and that is really lame. This is argumentative conversation, and that behavior indicates political propaganda without critical thinking.

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## Yaan

> Yes, at this time. But I am talking about time 1500 years ago. There was probably no peak in E-V13 percentage in Europe, just a smooth gradient. The entrance point of E-V13 is Balkans, so it's obviously South-east>rest of Europe gradient, no need to involve Portugal in this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> If we can't find out who were the Thracians, and we don't know who Albanians are, then it doesn't mean that you should connects those two. Where do you see the connection between Albanian and Thracian language?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Albanians are not Thrachians, Albanians are children of a couple of people one of which are Thrachians, but Serbs, Bulgarians, North Greeks and Romanians are more connected to Thrachians, Albanians on the other hand are more Ilyrian. It is not true that Albanians did not change for a lot of years. Modern concept of nation is since late 18th century. And yes we need old samples :)

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## Yaan

Yes I can not understand how this forum allows people to give negative points for whatever they want . I guess I should start giving negative points to Albanian and Western European comments, just like this? Ofc not I am a man :) 
I want moderators to check who is giving me negative points and give them warning and negative points. I demand this, I have insulted nobody and propaganda of West Balkan nationalists or West European R1b supermacist insults me

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## Nobody1

E-V13 is a _sub-clade_ of E-M78;
However unlike E-M78 and its other _sub-clades_ [V12/V22/V65] E-V13 did not originate in North Africa but in the _NearEast/Anatolia_ region; 

*Cruciani et al 2007 -*
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html
_Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia._ 


In fact E-V13 is one of the confirmed _Neolithic_ Hg's _(along with G2a and I2a1)_ of Europe;
In 2011 E-V13 was found at a *Neolithic* site [5th mil. BC] as far west as Spain; 

*Lacan et al 2011* - _Neolithic Spain
_http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20....full.pdf+html


E-V13 being in *Neolithic* Europe and that far spread; 
Def. means it was already in Balkans before the emergence of the *Indo-European* _Thracians_;

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## adamo

The Slavs are R1a, Yaan.

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## adamo

E3b reaches its highest European frequencies in central/southern Greece, where as many as 35-25% of men are E3b. 20% of Albanians and Serbians are also E3b, frequencies are slightly lower in Bulgaria and even less in Romania. The Thracians where not E3b. I do like Yaan's comment about R1b L-23; which is linked to parts of Greece and turkey/Armenia where it is found near the Caucasus at highest frequencies; maybe some thracians had R-L23. Many where probably I2a or even maybe R1a, as the Thracians where an indigenous Balkans group not unlike Romania's Dacians.

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## adamo

The likely answer is that the Thracians where similar to certain Romanian or Bosnian-herzegovinan type indigenous tribes that always made up a certain fraction of what is considered as being the "Illyrians", a name that denotes men that belonged to several different haplogroups; I2a, Some Celtic tribes settled among these Illyrians,Slavic blood, even Neolithic blood as is seen in Albania; this amalgamy of peoples was the "Illyrians", or those who inhabited "Illyria", the western coast of the Balkans region.

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## Yaan

> The Slavs are R1a, Yaan.


Not R1a ,R1a are also Arabs and Pakis. Slavs are R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din :)

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## adamo

The Illyrians inhabited a territory that stretched from Slovenia to the north, encompassing much of what is Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, all thewaydown to Albania in the south. The vast majority of the Illyrians would have been I2a in my opinion, of the same variety that dominates Bosnia/Herzegovina and is found in Croatia/Serbia today. Among them settled Slavs and celts in much lower numbers.

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## Yaan

E-V13 is not 20% in Albanians but almost 40%, the people with the most E-V13 in the world are Albanians, followed by Bulgarians, followed by Macedonians, Greeks(no good data, but also a lot),followed by Serbs. Bulgarians have more E-V13 then everybody in the Balkan, except ofc Albanians. Greeks have peaks , but it is not important we should look at the whole country. Also if Indo European Bulgarians are E-V13 a lot, how come Indo European Thrachians their ancestors are not. E-V13,R-L23 and J2b2 are Balkan and local. R1a is not local, and it is not Thrachian. E-V13 is Balkan group, for the last 7000 years all civilization in the Balkan is full with a lot of E-V13 and R-L23 :)

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## adamo

Pakis and Arabs are not R1a, R1a simply infiltrated Europe, advancing from the eastern Russian/Ukrainian plains towards Central Europe, they made a mirror movement towards the east, affecting 35% of eastern Iranians, 60% in Afghanistan,Pakistan,India,Tajikistan,Turkmenistan ,Uzbekistan etc. they affected many central Asian countries in an eastern movement.

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## Yaan

maybe u r on to something, lets say Slavic is born when I2a Ilyrians mix with North east tribes which are R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280. In order for a civilization to exist it needs to be minimum 3 different things mostly more

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## adamo

Yes, J2b, E-V13 and R-L23 originated in the Balkans, E-V13 is not found In a "total" of 40% of Albanians, maybe in certain regions, but greek shave the most E3b in all Europe at 30-35%.

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## Yaan

U mistake R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 with R1a, u should know it is not the same and R1a some groups are Arab and Paki,

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## Yaan

I have not even seen a good sample of Greeks. They do not have that much E-V13 at all, before there was a rumor that Italians also have it a lot and they do not, and if they have it it is from Balkan soldiers or Arabesh mostly I guess :) 
People make propaganda that E-V13 is not European, yet 98% of the E-V13 are Europeans, people make propagnda it is not Indo European yet majority of the carriers are Indo Europeans, people lie it is from the middle East yet with the exception of the Druze it is not seen there :)

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## adamo

I'm not mistaking it, Yan....I simply didn't specify which subclade of R1a I was speaking of....

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## Garrick

> E3b reaches its highest European frequencies in central/southern Greece, where as many as 35-25% of men are E3b. 20% of Albanians and Serbians are also E3b, frequencies are slightly lower in Bulgaria and even less in Romania. The Thracians where not E3b. I do like Yaan's comment about R1b L-23; which is linked to parts of Greece and turkey/Armenia where it is found near the Caucasus at highest frequencies; maybe some thracians had R-L23. Many where probably I2a or even maybe R1a, as the Thracians where an indigenous Balkans group not unlike Romania's Dacians.


I think that in Greece samples were not big and maybe it will be different situation when we see new results. Tosk Albanians have E1b1b1a2 similar as Montenegrins (28-29%), but peak is in Geg Albanians (45,6% in Kosovo, also high in north Albania). Serbs have about 19%, similar Bulgaria probably little more, Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic) something more, Bosniacs something less. And Romanians have in significant percentage. It is important haplogroup for Balkans and expanded across the Balkans from the Middle East.

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## adamo

I'm very well aware E-V13 is predominantly found in Europeans; there are good studies on E3b in Greece, frequencies can go as high as 35% in central/southern regions. Such high European frequencies can only be matched in Altamura Italy (32%) and in parts of Iberia or Albania, PARTS, which does not define a "national" level.

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## Yaan

U should always specify coz they are totally different,R1a is not Slavic at all ,only two of it subgroups R-M458 and R-Z280 are associated with Slavs, there is also a group associated with Viking, one with Jews, one with South Arabs and the rest is Central and South Asia. They have nothing to do with each other, totally different people. 
Also from 22% Bulgarian E 18.1 % is E-V13 so from roughly 30-35% Greek E, E-V13 is at the most 25-26% at far less then by Albos,also in crete and other islands it is really less.

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## Yaan

Good study is minimum 500 samples ,most Greek studies are 30-60 people

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## Yaan

Also it is important the country not a region and E-V13 is not high at all in Iberia. It is other E there, it is not big in Italy either, in Croatia and Austria should be bigger, it is Balkan and Central European marker observed also in Italy and parts of France and Britain and Eastern Europe :)

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## Ike

> Yes I can not understand how this forum allows people to give negative points for whatever they want . I guess I should start giving negative points to Albanian and Western European comments, just like this? Ofc not I am a man :) 
> I want moderators to check who is giving me negative points and give them warning and negative points. I demand this, I have insulted nobody and propaganda of West Balkan nationalists or West European R1b supermacist insults me


No, no. I quoted Garrick I think. You are safe :) No negative points on you.




> E-V13 is a _sub-clade_ of E-M78;
> In fact E-V13 is one of the confirmed _Neolithic_ Hg's _(along with G2a and I2a1)_ of Europe;
> In 2011 E-V13 was found at a *Neolithic* site [5th mil. BC] as far west as Spain; 
> 
> *Lacan et al 2011* - _Neolithic Spain
> _http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20....full.pdf+html
> 
> 
> E-V13 being in *Neolithic* Europe and that far spread; 
> Def. means it was already in Balkans before the emergence of the *Indo-European* _Thracians_;


As I understand, there were found four G2 , one E-M35, and one E-V13. They could have easily transported there with ships from Levant. Tthe location of the sample could also be indicative of pedestrian group crossing Gibraltar. It's not good enough for me, yet. They'd have to find +5000 BC of E-V13 in the Alps and +6000 BC in Balkans for that theory to be plausible.





> E E-V13,R-L23 and J2b2 are Balkan and local. R1a is not local, and it is not Thrachian. E-V13 is Balkan group, for the last 7000 years all civilization in the Balkan is full with a lot of E-V13 and R-L23 :)


 Not according to Klysov. He places R1a as oldest in Balkans, back to 10 kya.

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## Nobody1

> As I understand, there were found four G2 , one E-M35, and one E-V13. They could have easily transported there with ships from Levant. Tthe location of the sample could also be indicative of pedestrian group crossing Gibraltar. It's not good enough for me, yet. They'd have to find +5000 BC of E-V13 in the Alps and +6000 BC in Balkans for that theory to be plausible.


Thats for sure;
The more data the better and more precise the reconstruction;
But these 2 studies are good starters and also reveal a lot; But more must follow;

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## Garrick

> I've read the article. It says that Albanian language didn't change for last 12.000 years, and that it was spoken in Egypt, but it also says it was IE language. How do we reconcile these two? 
> 
> BTW someone is giving you negative points for this, and that is really lame. This is argumentative conversation, and that behavior indicates political propaganda without critical thinking.


I give Albanians sources. I said it is a complex matter and simplifications are not good, but this is Internet and it is impossible that someone writes always widely and detailed. Albanian language is placed in Indo-European languages, it is a branch by itself. And in this language there are influences of Afro-Asiatic languages, and it is logical.

Everyone has the right to evaluate what she or he thinks. This is a forum and people have different views and it is natural.

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## sparkey

> Yes I can not understand how this forum allows people to give negative points for whatever they want . I guess I should start giving negative points to Albanian and Western European comments, just like this? Ofc not I am a man :) 
> I want moderators to check who is giving me negative points and give them warning and negative points. I demand this, I have insulted nobody and propaganda of West Balkan nationalists or West European R1b supermacist insults me


Click "Settings" at the top right, and scroll down to "Latest Reputation Received." What do you see?

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## adamo

We all know that Yaan, E-M81 is prevalent in north-western Africa and Iberia (it and it's subclades) and low trace frequencies as well in Siclily, and E-M78 (northeastern Africa) has subclades in the Middle East and Greece/Balkans and southern Italy as well; I've said it many times, Yaan.

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## adamo

In Croatia and Austria the overall E-V13 frequencies are "higher"? As a whole E3b must only affect,what? 10% of men in both those nations?

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## Sile

Thracians Had European black hair ( instead of the pitch black asian colour), and either blue, grey or green eyes. In majority their hair was straight and they wore it in the "top knot" style.

The thracians traded for red haired women ( as noted ancient historians )

http://www.academia.edu/738235/Odyrs...nt_and_tactics

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## Garrick

> Yes I can not understand how this forum allows people to give negative points for whatever they want . I guess I should start giving negative points to Albanian and Western European comments, just like this? Ofc not I am a man :) 
> I want moderators to check who is giving me negative points and give them warning and negative points. I demand this, I have insulted nobody and propaganda of West Balkan nationalists or West European R1b supermacist insults me


Every has right to vote how wants. Unfortunately the quality of what you said for someone is not important in comparison to other motives. In other words whatever you say convincingly, reasonable and based on the facts gets negative points because it does not fit into someone's dogma. But it doesn't matter.

Robert Axelrod claim that the key to dong well lies not in overcoming others, but eliciting their cooperation. According to Cristoph Adami evolution punishes people who are selfish and mean. Evolution cancels those who do not want to cooperate.

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## Maleth

I found this really interesting. Thracians / Dacians seem to have a very interesting story and not as well known/promoted as much as other ancient groups around Europe. They seem to have been somehow intertwined one way or another with Greek and Roman histories. Spartacus was from Thrace too This documentary has subtitles.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjwMKqkeAM

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## Giacomo Pozza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_pit_of_Garlo

An interesting monument, the sacred pit of Garlo, it's been associated by many archeologists with the hundreds of Nuragic water well temples found in Sardinia.

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## Maleth

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_pit_of_Garlo
> 
> An interesting monument, the sacred pit of Garlo, it's been associated by many archeologists with the hundreds of Nuragic water well temples found in Sardinia.


Giacomo, you think there was a connection between Thracains and the Nuragic culture of Sardinia?. Another documentary on the Thracians stated that they traded as far as Denmark and at one time had a strong fleet and traded also in the Peloponnese.

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## Giacomo Pozza

> Giacomo, you think there was a connection between Thracains and the Nuragic culture of Sardinia?. Another documentary on the Thracians stated that they traded as far as Denmark and at one time had a strong fleet and traded also in the Peloponnese.


Yes, I think so, recent discoveries proved that the Nuragics traded far and wide, their pottery has been found as far as Cyprus, Atlantic Spain, Continental italy, Tyrins, Crete and different other locations: A recent study (2013) of 71 ancientSwedish bronze objects dated to Nordic Bronze Age, revealed that most of copper utilized at that time in Scandinavia came from Sardinia and the Iberian peninsula.[29].

Recently a whole city was discovered under the site of monte prama, where the Nuragic statues were found, the Nuragic even imported melons (which have been dated with C14 to 1320-1150 bc) from Africa or the Near east.

For these and many other reasons they are believed by many to be one of the most mentioned sea people: the Sherden.

Now we know that probably most of the sea people were Agean/Mycenean and we know that the Nuragics arrived in those regions and vice versa many myceneans came to Sardinia, Thracians were probably culturally close to the sea people as well, being so close to Mycenean Greece, so I think it's reasonable to think they've met.

Plus that sacred pit has been compared by a Bulgarian archeologist to another one in Sardinia (I think the one in Ballao), which looks almost identical to it and they are dated to a similar period too, perhaps the one in Sardinia is a little older (1250 bc), compared to the one in Bulgaria (1100-1000 bc).

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## Maleth

> Yes, I think so, recent discoveries proved that the Nuragics traded far and wide, their pottery has been found as far as Cyprus, Atlantic Spain, Continental italy, Tyrins, Crete and different other locations: A recent study (2013) of 71 ancientSwedish bronze objects dated to Nordic Bronze Age, revealed that most of copper utilized at that time in Scandinavia came from Sardinia and the Iberian peninsula.[29].
> 
> Recently a whole city was discovered under the site of monte prama, where the Nuragic statues were found, the Nuragic even imported melons (which have been dated with C14 to 1320-1150 bc) from Africa or the Near east.
> 
> For these and many other reasons they are believed by many to be one of the most mentioned sea people: the Sherden.
> 
> Now we know that probably most of the sea people were Agean/Mycenean and we know that the Nuragics arrived in those regions and vice versa many myceneans came to Sardinia, Thracians were probably culturally close to the sea people as well, being so close to Mycenean Greece, so I think it's reasonable to think they've met.
> 
> Plus that sacred pit has been compared by a Bulgarian archeologist to another one in Sardinia (I think the one in Ballao), which looks almost identical to it and they are dated to a similar period too, perhaps the one in Sardinia is a little older (1250 bc), compared to the one in Bulgaria (1100-1000 bc).


That is all quite interesting and I am sure there is so much we need to find out on ancient peoples interactions as the remains found can tell a thousand stories. In Malta we have an unusual construction who some have even claimed it could be handed down as a Nuragic design from generation to generation. These were used as shelter from Sun and Rain and to store tools when farmers had to go long distances to tend their fields and maybe hunting. They are called girnas.

http://www.stoneshelter.org/stone/girna.htm

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## Giacomo Pozza

> That is all quite interesting and I am sure there is so much we need to find out on ancient peoples interactions as the remains found can tell a thousand stories. In Malta we have an unusual construction who some have even claimed it could be handed down as a Nuragic design from generation to generation. These were used as shelter from Sun and Rain and to store tools when farmers had to go long distances to tend their fields and maybe hunting. They are called girnas.
> 
> http://www.stoneshelter.org/stone/girna.htm


I think those look like early Nuragic constructions, have they been dated yet?, they look like the proto Nuraghi (2000-1700 bc), this is an example: http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a31...tonuraghe3.JPG
And this is a single tower Nuraghe (1500 bc): http://www.catturalasardegna.it/albu...succoronis.jpg
They both look extremely alike to those structures you've just posted.


This is really interesting, I found this on wikipedia: Around the end of the third millennium BC, Sardinia exported towards Sicily a _Culture that built small dolmens, trilithic or polygonal shaped, that served as tombs as it has been ascertained in the Sicilian dolmen of Cava dei Servi. From this region they reached Malta island and other countries of Mediterranean basin.[63]



I_

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## Maleth

> I think those look like early Nuragic constructions, have they been dated yet?, they look like the proto Nuraghi (2000-1700 bc), this is an example: http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a31...tonuraghe3.JPG
> And this is a single tower Nuraghe (1500 bc): http://www.catturalasardegna.it/albu...succoronis.jpg
> They both look extremely alike to those structures you've just posted.
> 
> 
> This is really interesting, I found this on wikipedia: Around the end of the third millennium BC, Sardinia exported towards Sicily a _Culture that built small dolmens, trilithic or polygonal shaped, that served as tombs as it has been ascertained in the Sicilian dolmen of �Cava dei Servi�. From this region they reached Malta island and other countries of Mediterranean basin.[63]I_


Very interesting and they look similar indeed. Its a pity that no study is conclusive but its very probable. Many of them have been restored as they were falling into ruins, but I never came across any serious write ups about their story. Maltese pre history revolves soley on the Megalithic temples of 5600 bp (which are a mystery in themselves) and the cart ruts (another mystery) http://www.cartrutsmalta.com/. I think the girnas deserve similar attention.

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