# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Parthians: West or East Iranians??

## Goga

My question is who were the Parthians?


Parthians were ARYAN people and this was the Parthians Empire. Parthians were the main *competitors* of the Roman Empire in the EAST. And mighty Romans fought many battles against the Parthians.




More about the Empire of the Parthians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_Empire





Mithridates I of Parthia, 171-139 BCE




http://www.iranchamber.com/history/p.../parthians.php



Parthian *army*:









" _A sculpted head (broken off from a larger statue) of a Parthian soldier wearing a Hellenistic-style helmet, from the Parthian royal residence and necropolis of Nisa, Turkmenistan, 2nd century BC_ " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%...3Parthian_Wars


Mithradates I the Great, 165 BCE–132 BCE
http://www.livius.org/pictures/a/ira...adates-i-coin/



Arsaces I, 247 BCE–211 BCE
http://www.livius.org/pictures/a/ira...its/arsaces-i/


Head of a Parthian
http://www.livius.org/pictures/a/iran/parthian/

http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/parthian-empire/







The problem is that the *historical* region of the Parthians is located in north-*eastern* Iran. But Parthians spoke a *WEST* Iranian language, close to Kurdish dialect of Pehlewani or "Pahlawânik" group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Kurdish

Many people say that South Kurdish dialects *were spoken* by the Parthians. HOW??


So, my question is who were those Parthians? Were they West or East Iranians. As far as I know after the Medes, the Parthians came into the existense in Kurdistan. The Medes were West Iranian (ARYAN) people. Also Kurds are WEST Iranian people.

If the original homeland of the Parthians was *eastern* Iran, why did they speak a WEST Iranian (ARYAN) language, actually a southern dialect of Kurdish?

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## zanipolo

> My question is who were the Parthians?
> 
> 
> Parthians were ARYAN people and this was the Parthians Empire. Parthians were the main *competitors* of the Roman Empire in the EAST. And mighty Romans fought many battles against the Parthians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More about the Empire of the Parthians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_Empire
> ...


Pathians are NW-Iran...........they where pushed eastwards in iran ( persia) by Bactrians 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria

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## Goga

About Parthian language:

" _The Parthians spoke Parthian, a north-western Iranian language. No Parthian literature survives from before the Sassanid period in its original form,and they seem to have written down only very little. The Parthians did, however, have a thriving oral minstrel-poet culture, to the extent that their word for minstrel - gosan - survives to this day in many Iranian languages as well as especially in Armenian ("gusan"), on which it practised heavy (especially lexical and vocabulary) influence._ "


" _The Parthian language, also known as Arsacid Pahlavi and Pahlawānīg, is a now-extinct ancient Northwestern Iranian language spoken in Parthia, a region of northeastern ancient Iran. Parthian was the language of state of the Arsacid Parthian Empire (248 BC – 224 AD), as well as of its eponymous branches of the Arsacid dynasty of Armenia, Arsacid dynasty of Iberia, and the Arsacid dynasty of Caucasian Albania._
_
This language had a huge impact on Armenian, a large part of whose vocabulary was formed primarily from borrowings from Parthian._ "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_language


Like Kurdish and the language of the Medes, Parthians was a *North*western Iranian language. Farsi (Persian) is a *South*western Iranian language. So Parthian has much more in common with Kurdish than with Farsi (Persian).


Armenians speak a language which was hugely influenced by Iranian, mostly Parthian (Southern Kurdish). A large part of Armenian vocabulary was formed primarily from borrowings from Parthian (Southern Kurdish)...

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## Goga

> Pathians are NW-Iran...........they where pushed eastwards in iran ( persia) by Bactrians 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria


How could East Iranian Bactrians & Sogdians push West Iranian Parthians toward East??


I would think that Persians absorbed most of the Parthian DNA. But the odd thing is that Persians who speak Farsi are SOUTH-West Iranian people. Parthians spoke NORTH-West Iranian dialect. The only historic people who spoke North-West Iranian dialect were the *Medes* and nowadays the *Kurds*. 

But also Balochi. But Baloch were Kurds/Medes who migrated into Gedrosia.


Other NORTH-West Iranians, so the most closest relatives of the Kurds:

Tati language of *Tat people* + *Talysh people*, who are also NorthWest Iranians and speak a Talysh language. NorthWestern Talysh people are even CLOSER to the Kurds than South West Iranian Persians. The problem is that there are only a few hundred thousands of Tat and Talysh people, while 50 million Kurds. North West Iranian Talysh people have been mostly assimilated by South West Iranian people the Persians (Farsi).

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## Goga

According to http://www.kurdishacademy.org 

Parthians = Pahli (Feylí) Kurds. Pahli (Feylí) Kurds are Southern Kurds who live mostly in SouthEast Kurdistan (Iraq-Iran border), near Luristan of Luri people who consider themselves also as Kurds.

http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/46

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## Goga

Evolution of the Parthian Empire ( .gif file):

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## Goga

According to http://www.heritageinstitute.com


" _Origins of the Parthava (Parthians)

Summary: Parthia as a nation was already in existence around 1000 BCE. It was a successor nation to Nisaya, the fifth nation mentioned in the Avesta's, the Zoroastrian scriptures', book of Vendidad (see Vendidad nations). As a result, it is sometimes known was Parthaunisa. The Parthians are thought to be Dahi-Saka Aryans, (Dahae in western literature) a branch of the Iranian-Aryan family that had its origins in an area around the upper reaches of the Syr Darya (Jaxartes) river. The Dahi migrated 1,500 km westward towards land around the southeast Caspian coast and the Kopet Dag mountains. The Parthava may have in this manner shared origins with the ancestors of legendary Rustam of Sistan. The strongmen of both groups are called pahlavans, a word related to Pahlavi, a later form of Parthava. The reason of the migration of these Saka groups out of the original Saka homeland appears to have been internal conflict. The Saka pahlavans were protectors of Iran-Shahr and the Iranian throne, a role they would fulfil very well when they liberated Iran-Shahr from Macedonian rule. 

References: According to Marcus Justinus (3rd cent. CE) jus (41.1) before the Parthava (Parthians) settled in the area around Nisa (Nisaim), they lived in the land of the Saka* from where they were exiled and forced to leave because of discord. He states, "The Parthians, in whose hands the empire of the east now is, having divided the world, as it were, with the Romans, were originally exiles from the land of the Saka*." Justinus continues, "During the time of the Assyrians and Medes, they were the most obscure of all the people of the east."** "...they were continually harassed by severe wars with the Saka and other neighbouring nations, and pressed with various other formidable contests." "The Parthians, being forced to quit the land of the Saka by discord at home, gradually settled in the deserts betwixt Hyrcania (Varkana, Gorgan), the Dahae (Dahistan), the Arei (Aria), the Sparni and Marsiani. (Hi domesticis seditionibus Scythia pulsi solitudines inter Hyrcaniam et Dahas et Areos et Sparnos et Margianos furtim occupauere.)" 

*Justinus uses Scythia. While several writers incorrectly use the group names Saka and Scythian interchangeably, in his Histories, Herodotus differentiates between western and eastern 'Scythians', correctly naming the so-called eastern Scythians as Sacae (Saka). We feel using the term Scythians in place of Saka can lead to confusion about the origins of the Eastern Aryan Saka groups such as the Dahi and the Parthava. 

**Justinus informs us that Parthava had already been formed by the time of the Assyrians (c 2000-600 BCE) and Medes (c 800-550 BCE). Diodorus (1st c. BCE), states that the Parthians had "passed from the dominion of the Assyrians to that of the Medes... to a similar position under the Persians." We see the first historical mention around 500 BCE, of Parthava in the rock inscriptions of Darius the Great at Behistun. Parthava itself was a successor kingdom to ancient Nisaya, the fifth nation mentioned in the Zoroastrian scriptures book of Vendidad (see below). 

The original home of the Parthians that Justinus speaks of was probably the Saka lands also inhabited by the Dahi, i.e. the land around the upper to mid Syr Darya or Jaxartes river. According to Justinus, internal discord between the Saka forced the Parthians to leave their original homeland and migrate to new lands. The Dahi did the same and both migrated nearly 1500 km westwards towards the Caspian Sea. [For a further discussion, please see our Dahi page as well as our page on the Saka.]

Strabo str (c 63/64 BCE - 24 CE) in 11.9.2 of his Geography states that Arshak (Arsaces) was not native to Parthia but a member of the Parni Dahi, a Saka group: "Arsaces, a Sacae, (with the Parni, called nomads, a tribe of the Dahæ, who live on the banks of the Ochus***), invaded Parthia, and made himself master of it. At first both Arsaces and his successors were weakened by maintaining wars with those who had been deprived of their territory. Afterwards they became so powerful... ." In 11.9.3, "They say that the Dahæ Parni were an emigrant tribe from the Dahæ... ."_ "

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...thia/index.htm


But then again, if they were from the east, why did they speak a WEST Iranian language (close to Median/Kurdish)???

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## Sile

> According to http://www.heritageinstitute.com
> 
> 
> " _Origins of the Parthava (Parthians)
> 
> Summary: Parthia as a nation was already in existence around 1000 BCE. It was a successor nation to Nisaya, the fifth nation mentioned in the Avesta's, the Zoroastrian scriptures', book of Vendidad (see Vendidad nations). As a result, it is sometimes known was Parthaunisa. The Parthians are thought to be Dahi-Saka Aryans, (Dahae in western literature) a branch of the Iranian-Aryan family that had its origins in an area around the upper reaches of the Syr Darya (Jaxartes) river. The Dahi migrated 1,500 km westward towards land around the southeast Caspian coast and the Kopet Dag mountains. The Parthava may have in this manner shared origins with the ancestors of legendary Rustam of Sistan. The strongmen of both groups are called pahlavans, a word related to Pahlavi, a later form of Parthava. The reason of the migration of these Saka groups out of the original Saka homeland appears to have been internal conflict. The Saka pahlavans were protectors of Iran-Shahr and the Iranian throne, a role they would fulfil very well when they liberated Iran-Shahr from Macedonian rule. 
> 
> References: According to Marcus Justinus (3rd cent. CE) jus (41.1) before the Parthava (Parthians) settled in the area around Nisa (Nisaim), they lived in the land of the Saka* from where they were exiled and forced to leave because of discord. He states, "The Parthians, in whose hands the empire of the east now is, having divided the world, as it were, with the Romans, were originally exiles from the land of the Saka*." Justinus continues, "During the time of the Assyrians and Medes, they were the most obscure of all the people of the east."** "...they were continually harassed by severe wars with the Saka and other neighbouring nations, and pressed with various other formidable contests." "The Parthians, being forced to quit the land of the Saka by discord at home, gradually settled in the deserts betwixt Hyrcania (Varkana, Gorgan), the Dahae (Dahistan), the Arei (Aria), the Sparni and Marsiani. (Hi domesticis seditionibus Scythia pulsi solitudines inter Hyrcaniam et Dahas et Areos et Sparnos et Margianos furtim occupauere.)" 
> 
> ...


where do the Parthians and Medes fit with each other since they seem to have the same areas of land in their respective histories.?

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## Alan

I think I have had this explained quite often here.

Parthia was a dynasty. The only East Iranic thing about the Parthians was the early founding family of the Parni who came from the Dahae confederation. However the mainstream Parthians were basically the former Medes who went into alliance with the Parni. 

Parthians were simply Medes with little more Scythian attribution to them.

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## Goga

> where do the Parthians and Medes fit with each other since they seem to have the same areas of land in their respective histories.?


Don't know much about the origin of the Parthians, they are still obscure to me. Still not sure about them, but I do assume that the Parthians who migrated into Kurdistan were assimilated by the Medes. To my understanding Kurmanji Kurds are one of the 'purest' native Medes, while Kurds in southeastern Kurdistan, most likely the Feyli Kurds are Medes with some Parthian ancestry in them. There is some variation between the Kurds.

There are 5 main variations between the Kurds:

a) Kurmanji Kurds = greatest majority of the Kurds. I do belong to this kind.
b) Sorani Kurds
c) Zazaki / Gorani Kurds
d) Feyli Kurds + e) Lurs (some of the Lurs consider/identify themselves as Kurds)

Sorani, Feyli and Gorani Kurds could have some ancestry from the Parthians, at least more than Kurmanji do.

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## Goga

" _Herodotus listed Parthians among those who fought under the Persians in Xerxes’ famous invasion of Greece, and like the Arians and Sogdians, says that they were equipped like the Bactrians “in all respects” (7.66). The Parthians had a district immediately east of Media, southeast of the Caspian Sea, which they obtained by force. Strabo says of Parthia that in the Persian and Macedonian periods “in addition to its smallness, it is thickly wooded and mountainous, and also poverty-stricken”, and that at that time its people paid their tribute along with the Hyrcanians to the west (11.9.1). Strabo then says that “Arsaces (Ἀρσάκης), a Scythian, with some of the Däae ... invaded Parthia and conquered it. Now at the outset Arsaces was weak, being continually at war with those who had been deprived by him of their territory, both he himself and his successors, but later they grew so strong, always taking neighboring territory, through successes in warfare, that finally they established themselves as lords of the whole of the country inside the Euphrates ...” (11.9.2). Elsewhere Strabo tells us that the Däae, along with the Massagetae and Sacae, are Scythians (11.8.2)._ "

http://christogenea.org/essays/class...related-tribes


There are at least 3 different assumption why Parthians spoke a WEST Iranian language and not the EAST Iranian language what would make much more sense.


a) At one point of history the Medes migrated into the BMAC area and settled there. Like they did with *Balochistan*/Gedrosia. It has been said that there was an EASTWARD migration of the Medes toward Central Asia. Zarathustra / members of Median *Magi* tribe migrated into BMAC. It is also a FACT that West Iranian dialect is spoken in the eastern parts of the Iranian Plateau.

= migration of the Medes into eastern parts of the Iranian Plateau and then the BACKMIGRATION of those Medes into Kurdistan later in time.


b) West Iranian language of the Medes/Kurds is originally from the eastern parts of the Iranian Plateau. I have my doubts about this theory, because West Iranian dialect is a true West Asian language, linked to the Sumerians/Gutians (who were later evolved into Mitanni/Kassites). Kurdish (NorthWest Iranian dialect) has Sumerian roots. 





*Examples of Sumerian-Kurdish words:

* English: My God is my mother
Sumerian: Dingir mu ama mu
Kurdish: Dingir m ama ma

English: Man of (the) God
Sumerian: Lu dingir ra
Kurdish: Lo dingir a

English: God is my life
Sumerian: Dingir zi mu
Kurdish: Dingir zi ma

English: He, she
Sumerian: Ane
Kurdish: Au/ana

English: They
Sumerian: Anene
Kurdish: Uanan/auan

English: Moreover
Sumerian: Anga
Kurdish: Anja/Auja

English: Consequently:
Sumerian: Angam
Kurdish: Anjam

English: Water
Sumerian: A
Kurdish: Au (Av is frequently used in the big cities)

English: Prisoner of war
Sumerian: Asiri
Kurdish: Asir

English: Flour
Sumerian: As
Kurdish: As

English: Butterfly 
Sumerian: Asag
Kurdish: Asiq

English: Glory, important
Sumerian: Aratta
Kurdish: Harat 

English: Child
Sumerian: Banda
Kurdish: Banda

English: Commodity
Sumerian: Burgi
Kurdish: Barga

English: A servant
Sumerian: Bursag
Kurdish: Barsaq

http://ekurd.net/mismas/articles/mis.../state7957.htm


or c) Parthians spoke originally an East Iranian language, but due to the influences and domnation of the Medes from the west they started to speak a West Iranian language. So the Parthians were culturally and linguistically 'influenced' (Aryanized) by the NorthWEST Iranian Medes

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## Alan

You are making a simple thing more complicated. I explained above in few sentences what the Parthians were.




> As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes,[1]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia


1. Parthia as a Satrapi name was simply given to that Northeastern region by the Achaemenids, It was the name of a Satrapi, not a people. 
2. The people living in the Parthia Satrapi were Medes. 
3. The "Parthians" did not call themselves this way but Arsacids, after the ruling Arsacid Dynasty. The name Parthians was given to them by foreigners (Greco_Romans) because they first expanded out of the Satrapi known as Parthia. 
4. Later the "Parthian rule" expanded all over the other former Median territories. The language the Parthians spoke was clearly a later version of the former Median language which is pretty much the proxy for Proto_Northwest Iranian.
5. Medes were a confederation of tribal groups.
6. When the Parthian rule expanded, the Medes as a people(under this name) didn't exist anymore, only a region in Northwest known as Media Atropatene which was just another Satrapi and small part of the former Median empire.
7. The tribal groups of the Medes went under the rule of the Arsacid dynasty and so was born the Parthian rule/dynasty.

Parthians => Medes with a Scythian (Parni) rule that triggered a revolt against the Seleucid rule.

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## Sile

*Kurdish and Parthian hypothesis*Some linguists see the Kurdish language as the contemporary equivalent of the Parthian language. Professor Gernot Windfuhr recognized the Kurdish language as a derivation of the Parthian language.[269] Professor David Neil MacKenzie classified the Kurdish language as a neo Northwestern-Iranian language and Parthian as an old Northwestern-Iranian language.


https://www.researchgate.net/profile...blication_list

https://asiatica.wikispaces.com/file...n+abstract.pdf

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## Sile

more info

http://www.parthia.com/doc/parthian_...THIAN_STATIONS

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## Alan

> *Kurdish and Parthian hypothesis*
> 
> Some linguists see the Kurdish language as the contemporary equivalent of the Parthian language. Professor Gernot Windfuhr recognized the Kurdish language as a derivation of the Parthian language.[269] Professor David Neil MacKenzie classified the Kurdish language as a neo Northwestern-Iranian language and Parthian as an old Northwestern-Iranian language.
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...blication_list
> 
> https://asiatica.wikispaces.com/file...n+abstract.pdf


I had pointed out the similarities between Parthians and Kurds in some other threads. Kurdish is NW Iranian(Median derived) and has obvious East Iranic(Scythic) substrata to it. This can be best explained with Parthian ancestry. Now what many people do not seem to see/understand, one does not exclude the other. It is not either Mede or Parthian. It is if you are a Parthian than you have to derive large majority of your ancestory from the Medes.

You can't be a Human without being a Primate. Now you can be a Primate without being Human though.

Means you can be descend of Parthians without being a Kurd, obviously because Parthians were not Kurds. But it is unlikely that you are an ethnic/genetic Kurd, if you are not descend of the Medes/Parthians (or atleast a tribe that was incooperated by them in later periods).

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## Goga

> *Kurdish and Parthian hypothesis*
> 
> Some linguists see the Kurdish language as the contemporary equivalent of the Parthian language. Professor Gernot Windfuhr recognized the Kurdish language as a derivation of the Parthian language.[269] Professor David Neil MacKenzie classified the Kurdish language as a neo Northwestern-Iranian language and Parthian as an old Northwestern-Iranian language.
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile...blication_list
> 
> https://asiatica.wikispaces.com/file...n+abstract.pdf


Thank you very much for these links my dear friend.


As you can see, it is possible that Parthians evoled from the Medes (Magi tribes) who mgrated into BMAC area. So Parthians came into the existesne on the eastern side of the Iranian Plateau, but most of their roots were Median from the western side of the Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains.
*Zarathustra* also belonged to a *Magi tribe of the Medes* who was an outcast in Kurdistan (Ezdixan) and went to Bactria.


But I don't agree 100% with this tree. And I will tell you why:


Parthians - Medes.jpg




As you can see, according to this tree Parthian language evolved from the language of the Medes.


+ According to this tree Kurdish evolved from Parthian. But I don't think that was the case. I believe that Kurdish (at least Kurmanji) was DIRECTLY evolved from the language of the Medes. So, Parthian and Kurdish are almost the same with the same Median ancestor, but Parthian is NOT ancestral to Kurdish. It is a '*twin*-language' of Kurdish so to speak.

I don't think that the Medes became Parthians and Parthians became Kurds. I'm sure the Medes became directly the (Kurmanji) Kurds (Kurmanji: kur = son , manji = Medes. Kurmanji = son of the Medes).

I also don't agree that they do consider Avestan as an *EAST* Iranian language. The languages of the Medes and Avestan were practically the same. So according to me Avestan was much more '*archaic*' and *proto*-East Iranian than just '*OLD*' East Iranian. Even nowadays modern Kurdish is very close to Avestan. Grammar is also very simmilar (NorthWest Asian ergativity construction in both of them). But that link can be indeed from the Scythians who spoke an EAST Iranic language. Or maybe just nothing more but a more archaic proto-Iranian link.

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## Goga

There are many YouTube videos of similarities between Kurdish (Median) and Avestan (language of Zoroastrian Gathas) vocabulary. So to my understanding Avestan was not OLD-Eastern Iranian, but more likely PROTO-Eastern Iranian.

This is another one

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## Goga

Just for fun, one of the times when Parthians defeated the mighty Roman Empire superpower. More than 20,000 Roman soldiers got killed and 10,000 more were captured alive.







There was even a time when my homeland Shengal (Ezdixan) was part of (occupied by) the Roman Empire..

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## abelgalois

> I think I have had this explained quite often here.
> 
> Parthia was a dynasty. The only East Iranic thing about the Parthians was the early founding family of the Parni who came from the Dahae confederation. However the mainstream Parthians were basically the former Medes who went into alliance with the Parni. 
> 
> Parthians were simply Medes with little more Scythian attribution to them.


+1 Language affinities aren't always directly centered around the expected geographic location.

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## abelgalois

> +1 Language affinities aren't always directly centered around the expected geographic location.


What I mean to say is, the theorized "distance" of a language may place is it under a certain branch (with some geographic marker), but the speaking population may be centered away from the expected geographic location, for various reasons. One of which is a result of the determination of a strategic center and hubs for a massive empire such as the Parthian empire.

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