# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  What is the difference between the SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 alleles?

## Ack

What is the difference between the SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 alleles? I know that both are alleles of depigmentation and are distributed throughout Europe, but is one of them dominant over the other? If the same individual has both alleles, is any of them dominant or do they work together? Thank you.

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## Regio X

> What is the difference between the SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 alleles? I know that both are alleles of depigmentation and are distributed throughout Europe, but is one of them dominant over the other? If the same individual has both alleles, is any of them dominant or do they work together? Thank you.


They work together, and apparently the SLC24A5 is "stronger" than SLC45A2. At least the former has a higher magnitude in SNPedia. 
SLC24A5: https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654
SLC45A2: https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982

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## Duarte

My skin traits on yourDNAportal:









>

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## Angela

According to Mathieson in his latest paper on pigmentation, SLC45A2 is not a major factor in pigmentation. That's the first such statement of which I'm aware.

See the link to the paper and discussion including charts at...
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=pigmentation

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## Regio X

> According to Mathieson in his latest paper on pigmentation, SLC45A2 is not a major factor in pigmentation. That's the first such statement of which I'm aware.
> See the link to the paper and discussion including charts at...
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=pigmentation


That possibly explains why its magnitude is low in SNPedia. 
My wife is homozygous GG for SLC45A2, however, she's heterozygous for SLC24A5, curiously. She inherited one G allele from her Brazilian father (Portuguese + NA + traces of SSA). I know it because her mother is AA. It made her (beautiful) skin kind of golden, or light brown, even without sun exposure. I thought it'd be good if our son inherited this allele, je je, given the possibility he'll spend most part of his life in a tropical place. If he lives instead in a high latitude place, either he'd take more sun or supplement with D3. Unfortunately, he actually inherited the A from her.

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## Angela

Years ago, before you were active here certain posters found it highly unusual that I have these traits; they also seemed to feel I should consider it an honor. Such silliness. It's the most important physical trait I have which I would have changed if I could; I've spent my life hiding from the sun, especially when on vacation, i.e. Florida, the Caribbean, but even at home on the Mediterranean in the summer or here in the Hamptons. I'm either under an umbrella or an overhang, or wandering around looking like someone going to a Halloween Party as Scarlett O'Hara or as Isadora Duncan in her veils, and we know how that turned out. :)


Marker: rs1426654

SLC24A5
rs1426654
48426484
A or G
A / A


SLC45A2
rs16891982
33951693
C or G
G / G


This is CTSG. "G" is the "European" variant.

*rs3758833*
88071656
A or G
G / G



This is the TYRP1 snp he targets.
intergenic
*rs1325132*
12525999
A or G
G / G



*BNC2*
*rs2153271*
16864521
C or T
T / T



rs4778123, the OCA2 variant he found important, doesn’t seem to be covered in my version of 23andme.


It must be how all of the alleles work in combination with each other which produce certain results. The small effect genes would come in as well, although not as important as these.

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## Regio X

> Years ago, before you were active here certain posters found it highly unusual that I have these traits; they also seemed to feel I should consider it an honor. Such silliness. It's the most important physical trait I have which I would have changed if I could; I've spent my life hiding from the sun, especially when on vacation, i.e. Florida, the Caribbean, but even at home on the Mediterranean in the summer or here in the Hamptons. I'm either under an umbrella or an overhang, or wandering around looking like someone going to a Halloween Party as Scarlett O'Hara or as Isadora Duncan in her veils, and we know how that turned out. :)
> 
> 
> Marker: rs1426654
> 
> SLC24A5
> rs1426654
> 48426484
> A or G
> ...


Thanks. Very interesting. These SNPs should be included in SNPedia.
Yes, some other less important SNPs may play a role, such those that affect also hair, eyes...

SLC24A5 (rs1426654) - Mine AA; Father AA; Mother AA; Wife AG; Son AA; Mother-in-law AA.
SLC45A2 (rs16891982) - All GG.
rs3758833 - Mine AG; Father GG; Mother AG; Wife GG; Son GG; Mother-in-law GG.
rs1325132 - All GG.
rs2153271 - Mine CT; Father CC; Mother TT; Wife CT; Son ?; Mother-in-law TT.
rs4778123 - No results.

"
ED: Forgot the following (as per the Figure below)

SLC24A5 (rs2675345) - No results.
rs12203592 - Mine CC (common on affy axiom data); Father CT (Primarily in Europeans; likely presence of freckles, brown hair and high sensitivity of skin to sun exposure.); Mother CC; Wife CC; Son CC (inferred); Mother-in-law CC.
"

Chart.jpg



As for spending your life hiding from the sun, I perfectly know what you mean. And you live at latitude ~41. Now, imagine if you had to live in the tropics. ;) My father and siblings never cared at all about physical traits, but my mother always said she would like to have been blessed with a darker skin. :)

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## Ack

> Years ago, before you were active here certain posters found it highly unusual that I have these traits; they also seemed to feel I should consider it an honor. Such silliness. It's the most important physical trait I have which I would have changed if I could; I've spent my life hiding from the sun, especially when on vacation, i.e. Florida, the Caribbean, but even at home on the Mediterranean in the summer or here in the Hamptons. I'm either under an umbrella or an overhang, or wandering around looking like someone going to a Halloween Party as Scarlett O'Hara or as Isadora Duncan in her veils, and we know how that turned out. :)
> 
> 
> Marker: rs1426654
> 
> SLC24A5
> rs1426654
> 48426484
> A or G
> ...


I don't think it's unusual because the variation seems to be fixed across Europe.

Gene fixado.jpg

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## Ack

[QUOTE = Angela; 603693] Segundo Mathieson em seu último artigo sobre pigmentação, o SLC45A2 não é um fator importante na pigmentação. Essa é a primeira declaração desse tipo da qual estou ciente. 

Veja o link para o artigo e a discussão, incluindo gráficos em ... 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39992-The-evolution-of-skin-pigmentation-associated-variation-in-West-Eurasia? destaque = pigmentação [/ QUOTE]


​Interesting, thanks

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## Ack

> Thanks. Very interesting. These SNPs should be included in SNPedia.
> Yes, some other less important SNPs may play a role, such those that affect also hair, eyes...
> SLC24A5 (rs1426654) - Mine AA; Father AA; Mother AA; Wife AG; Son AA; Mother-in-law AA.
> SLC45A2 (rs16891982) - All GG.
> rs3758833 - Mine AG; Father GG; Mother AG; Wife GG; Son GG; Mother-in-law GG.
> rs1325132 - All GG.
> rs2153271 - Mine CT; Father CC; Mother TT; Wife CT; Son ?; Mother-in-law TT.
> rs4778123 - No results.
> "
> ...


Este gráfico/imagem é de qual artigo?

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## Regio X

> I don't think it's unusual because the variation seems to be fixed across Europe.
> Gene fixado.jpg


Some results are virtually fixed, yes, such for example the one for SLC24A5 rs1426654, but as you know there're other SNPs that affect pigmentation, and certain results may vary even within Europe.

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654




> Este gráfico/imagem é de qual artigo?


Check it here: 
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2020/05/09/2020.05.08.085274/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf

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## Duarte

> Years ago, before you were active here certain posters found it highly unusual that I have these traits; they also seemed to feel I should consider it an honor. Such silliness. It's the most important physical trait I have which I would have changed if I could; I've spent my life hiding from the sun, especially when on vacation, i.e. Florida, the Caribbean, but even at home on the Mediterranean in the summer or here in the Hamptons. I'm either under an umbrella or an overhang, or wandering around looking like someone going to a Halloween Party as Scarlett O'Hara or as Isadora Duncan in her veils, and we know how that turned out. :)
> 
> 
> Marker: rs1426654
> 
> SLC24A5
> rs1426654
> 48426484
> A or G
> ...


My markers:




The other markers are "no call" for me.

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## Ack

> Some results are virtually fixed, yes, such for example the one for SLC24A5 rs1426654, but as you know there're other SNPs that affect pigmentation, and certain results may vary even within Europe.
> https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654
> Check it here: 
> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...ed/media-1.pdf


Thank you for the link. Yes, there is certainly variation in Europe, but it seems to be something complex. I just tried to say that the allele mentioned is extremely common across Europe.

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## Ack

> My markers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other markers are "no call" for me.


It looks a lot like mine. I'm also AA for rs1426654 and CG for rs16891982

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## Angela

> I don't think it's unusual because the variation seems to be fixed across Europe.
> 
> Gene fixado.jpg


I mentioned there was surprise that I, as an Italian, was completely derived for both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. 

Until the publication of this paper just recently every paper I ever saw on pigmentation considered SLC45A2 one of the major de-pigmentation snps in Europe, and although levels are high in Europe, it's by no means fixed.

As per the thread to which I linked...







The following is 42A5, which everyone has considered important until now.

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## Angela

> As for spending your life hiding from the sun, I perfectly know what you mean. And you live at latitude ~41. Now, imagine if you had to live in the tropics. ;) My father and siblings never cared at all about physical traits, but my mother always said she would like to have been blessed with a darker skin. :)


I don't think I could survive in the tropics. 

As I've mentioned, my parents and then I had a condo in Florida, which is pretty tropical, for decades. I spent a week there in May one year, which is technically still spring, and lived to regret it. I was slathered in the strongest sun screen I could find, and wore a hat, but somehow just the reflected sunlight "burned" my eyes. The itching and watering were unbearable but when I went to the doctor thinking it was some new allergy he explained it and said I had to wear wrap around sunglasses when I went outdoors. Mine were too small and let in too much light.

In Mexico, at a hotel called Las Brisas, they provided you with little open sided jeeps with a cover. I thought for once I didn't need all that greasy cream. Well, the problem was I held onto the post for curves. That night my arm swelled up like a sausage. Doctors again.

The worst was in Cape May, New Jersey soon after I married. Like an idiot I wanted to get a little color on my face so I didn't put sun screen on it. I fell asleep for two hours or so on the beach with one cheek exposed. In the middle of the night, feeling an incredible tightness in my face I went to the bathroom and screamed and cried in absolute terror. My entire face was swollen like a monster's, eyes squeezed shut, and a brilliant red. The emergency room doctors had to give me shots of steroids and steroid cream and I spent the rest of the vacation in the darkened hotel room. After he treated me, the doctor proceeded to yell at me and tell me that if I didn't want to die young of melanoma I'd stay out of the sun. 

So, my wish for one ancestral allele somewhere didn't stem from aesthetic considerations at all; I quite liked the color of my skin against my dark hair. :) It was a question of it being a burden in a lot of situations.

The tropics are also not for me, unless they spray the hell out of it, because I'm a magnet for mosquitoes, sand fleas, you name it. Like an idiot, again, I wanted a "green" vacation, no nasty chemical spraying, yada, yada, yada, so once we went for a week to Caneel Bay in the Virgin Islands. Big, big mistake. The room was right on the beach, so we were outside sipping a pina colada on our lounge chairs watching the sunset. In the middle of the night I felt this horrible itching all over my legs. I was covered in thousands and thousands of bites. This time it was a black doctor in St. Thomas who had to treat me, with shots of penicillin, because I had impetigo from sand fleas. Meanwhile, my husband had turned a lovely brown and didn't have a single bite. I could happily have punched him. :)

Have you read the journals of Livingston and Stanley or other men like them of their explorations of Africa? On day 18 we lost Fowler, etc. etc. Well, that would have been me. :) 

Pigmentation and all sorts of other traits are an adaptation to the environment: climate, altitude, food etc. There's nothing holy or objectively superior or inferior about any of it. 

I seem to be adapted for mountain life and northern latitudes. It's just the roll of the genetic dice.

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## Duarte

> I don't think I could survive in the tropics. 
> 
> As I've mentioned, my parents and then I had a condo in Florida, which is pretty tropical, for decades. I spent a week there in May one year, which is technically still spring, and lived to regret it. I was slathered in the strongest sun screen I could find, and wore a hat, but somehow just the reflected sunlight "burned" my eyes. The itching and watering were unbearable but when I went to the doctor thinking it was some new allergy he explained it and said I had to wear wrap around sunglasses when I went outdoors. Mine were too small and let in too much light.
> 
> In Mexico, at a hotel called Las Brisas, they provided you with little open sided jeeps with a cover. I thought for once I didn't need all that greasy cream. Well, the problem was I held onto the post for curves. That night my arm swelled up like a sausage. Doctors again.
> 
> The worst was in Cape May, New Jersey soon after I married. Like an idiot I wanted to get a little color on my face so I didn't put sun screen on it. I fell asleep for two hours or so on the beach with one cheek exposed. In the middle of the night, feeling an incredible tightness in my face I went to the bathroom and screamed and cried in absolute terror. My entire face was swollen like a monster's, eyes squeezed shut, and a brilliant red. The emergency room doctors had to give me shots of steroids and steroid cream and I spent the rest of the vacation in the darkened hotel room. After he treated me, the doctor proceeded to yell at me and tell me that if I didn't want to die young of melanoma I'd stay out of the sun. 
> 
> So, my wish for one ancestral allele somewhere didn't stem from aesthetic considerations at all; I quite liked the color of my skin against my dark hair. :) It was a question of it being a burden in a lot of situations.
> ...


My wife and I love Rio de Janeiro. It is close to Belo Horizonte. From BH to the city of Rio de Janeiro it is 5 hours by car. In Belo Horizonte, I and my wife ​​have the same skin tone. In Rio de Janeiro I get black and she turns pink. I once called her a pink panther and she didn't like it very much, lol lol.

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## Ailchu

> Thank you for the link. Yes, there is certainly variation in Europe, but it seems to be something complex. I just tried to say that the allele mentioned is extremely common across Europe.


it is also very common in the near east and also north africa. and if you look at the untanned skin complexion of people from there, their skin isn't much darker than the one of northern europeans. so 24A5 might really be one of the most if not the most important factor for depigmentation in westeurasia.

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## torzio

my results for skin colour via 23andme ( updated december 2017 )

*A111T*

Gene: SLC24A5 
Marker: rs1426654 
Genotype AA

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654




*L374F*

Gene: SLC45A2 
Marker: rs16891982 
Genotype GG

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs16891982


.................................................. ..................


my father is 
AA
and
CG

and all my sons same as myself

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## Ack

> I mentioned there was surprise that I, as an Italian, was completely derived for both SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. 
> 
> Until the publication of this paper just recently every paper I ever saw on pigmentation considered SLC45A2 one of the major de-pigmentation snps in Europe, and although levels are high in Europe, it's by no means fixed.
> 
> As per the thread to which I linked...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understood, but I never thought it was surprising that an Italian had all the alleles for fair skin because I always associated the main alleles for fair skin with farmers. But I imagine that to others it may seem somewhat unusual. 






__


[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.54)]
[/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.54)]
[/COLOR]

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## Regio X

> I don't think I could survive in the tropics. 
> 
> As I've mentioned, my parents and then I had a condo in Florida, which is pretty tropical, for decades. I spent a week there in May one year, which is technically still spring, and lived to regret it. I was slathered in the strongest sun screen I could find, and wore a hat, but somehow just the reflected sunlight "burned" my eyes. The itching and watering were unbearable but when I went to the doctor thinking it was some new allergy he explained it and said I had to wear wrap around sunglasses when I went outdoors. Mine were too small and let in too much light.
> 
> In Mexico, at a hotel called Las Brisas, they provided you with little open sided jeeps with a cover. I thought for once I didn't need all that greasy cream. Well, the problem was I held onto the post for curves. That night my arm swelled up like a sausage. Doctors again.
> 
> The worst was in Cape May, New Jersey soon after I married. Like an idiot I wanted to get a little color on my face so I didn't put sun screen on it. I fell asleep for two hours or so on the beach with one cheek exposed. In the middle of the night, feeling an incredible tightness in my face I went to the bathroom and screamed and cried in absolute terror. My entire face was swollen like a monster's, eyes squeezed shut, and a brilliant red. The emergency room doctors had to give me shots of steroids and steroid cream and I spent the rest of the vacation in the darkened hotel room. After he treated me, the doctor proceeded to yell at me and tell me that if I didn't want to die young of melanoma I'd stay out of the sun. 
> 
> So, my wish for one ancestral allele somewhere didn't stem from aesthetic considerations at all; I quite liked the color of my skin against my dark hair. :) It was a question of it being a burden in a lot of situations.
> ...


You seem to have the so-called "milk skin", so I believe it must be even worst for you than it is for me under strong sunlight. At least you lived all your life at a relatively high latitude area. :)
My mother-in-law apparently has similar SNP results than yours. She took lot and lot of sun all her life, and she didn't really tan. She got a bit "spotted" (not sure it's the term), and sun made her looks slightly older perhaps. Anyway, there is no skin cancer running in her family, and I doubt she'll have it. Her family is actually pretty "longevous". 
They say my maternal grandfather also had this type of (extremely white) skin. He was tagliapietra, and lived all his life close to latitude 30, so imagine! He didn't die of skin cancer, but his face looked permanently sort of skinned, or something (not sure it's the word). On the other hand, my father talked us about a paternal aunt of him that was pretty swarthy. She called Olimpia, but she was known as aunt "Mora" for this reason. She must have casually inherited the dominant alleles for pigmentation from her parents. It's very interesting how they may combine differently in the same family.
I got burned many times in my "tropical" life, je je. The last one, few years ago, was kind of intentional (not the burning itself), but I regreted. I was visiting a place called Pirenópolis, in the state of Goiás. I convinced myself at that moment, in a waterfall, that I should get more tanned. Then the genious took lots and lots of it in that afternoon. It didn't look "that" strong while I took it. Unnecessary to explain the results, especially in upper body. One of the worst parts is when the burning starts to get better, 'cause it itches a lot. I tried to relieve it with a wet towel (IIRC, I even slept with it), je je. I'll try it again sometime, because I know I do tan at certain degree (at least more than my parents and certain siblings), but I'll try it in a different way, of course. In my youth I took lots and lots of sun (way more than I take now), and I did tan a bit, which proves it's possible. :) It doesn't mean I'm a heat/sunlight lover. It's just that suntan could have helped in tropics, and it would also have avoided that "ghost looking". I actually love mountains, and I do like cold and cloudy weather (likely an issue related to my retina).

By the way, I think dark hair and white skin a beautiful combination. Caitriona Balfe, for example:

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## torzio

> You seem to have the so-called "milk skin", so I believe it must be even worst for you than it is for me under strong sunlight. At least you lived all your life at a relatively high latitude area. :)
> My mother-in-law apparently has similar SNP results than yours. She took lot and lot of sun all her life, and she didn't really tan. She got a bit "spotted" (not sure it's the term), and sun made her looks slightly older perhaps. Anyway, there is no skin cancer running in her family, and I doubt she'll have it. Her family is actually pretty "longevous". 
> They say my maternal grandfather also had this type of (extremely white) skin. He was tagliapietra, and lived all his life close to latitude 30, so imagine! He didn't die of skin cancer, but his face looked permanently sort of skinned, or something (not sure it's the word). On the other hand, my father talked us about a paternal aunt of him that was pretty swarthy. She called Olimpia, but she was known as aunt "Mora" for this reason. She must have casually inherited the dominant alleles for pigmentation from her parents. It's very interesting how they may combine differently in the same family.
> I got burned many times in my "tropical" life, je je. The last one, few years ago, was kind of intentional (not the burning itself), but I regreted. I was visiting a place called Pirenópolis, in the state of Goiás. I convinced myself at that moment, in a waterfall, that I should get more tanned. Then the genious took lots and lots of it in that afternoon. It didn't look "that" strong while I took it. Unnecessary to explain the results, especially in upper body. One of the worst parts is when the burning starts to get better, 'cause it itches a lot. I tried to relieve it with a wet towel (IIRC, I even slept with it), je je. I'll try it again sometime, because I know I do tan at certain degree (at least more than my parents and certain siblings), but I'll try it in a different way, of course. In my youth I took lots and lots of sun (way more than I take now), and I did tan a bit, which proves it's possible. :) It doesn't mean I'm a heat/sunlight lover. It's just that suntan could have helped in tropics, and it would also have avoided that "ghost looking". I actually love mountains, and I do like cold and cloudy weather (likely an issue related to my retina).
> 
> By the way, I think dark hair associated to white skin a beautiful combination. Caitriona Balfe, for example:


yes....same as my sister and father hair colour and also youngest son ....................sister milky skin, but the men not so, they can tan in the sun

my son has bluer coloured eyes than the above picture .....................his son has same colour as him

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## Angela

> You seem to have the so-called "milk skin", so I believe it must be even worst for you than it is for me under strong sunlight. At least you lived all your life at a relatively high latitude area. :)
> My mother-in-law apparently has similar SNP results than yours. She took lot and lot of sun all her life, and she didn't really tan. She got a bit "spotted" (not sure it's the term), and sun made her looks slightly older perhaps. Anyway, there is no skin cancer running in her family, and I doubt she'll have it. Her family is actually pretty "longevous". 
> They say my maternal grandfather also had this type of (extremely white) skin. He was tagliapietra, and lived all his life close to latitude 30, so imagine! He didn't die of skin cancer, but his face looked permanently sort of skinned, or something (not sure it's the word). On the other hand, my father talked us about a paternal aunt of him that was pretty swarthy. She called Olimpia, but she was known as aunt "Mora" for this reason. She must have casually inherited the dominant alleles for pigmentation from her parents. It's very interesting how they may combine differently in the same family.
> I got burned many times in my "tropical" life, je je. The last one, few years ago, was kind of intentional (not the burning itself), but I regreted. I was visiting a place called Pirenópolis, in the state of Goiás. I convinced myself at that moment, in a waterfall, that I should get more tanned. Then the genious took lots and lots of it in that afternoon. It didn't look "that" strong while I took it. Unnecessary to explain the results, especially in upper body. One of the worst parts is when the burning starts to get better, 'cause it itches a lot. I tried to relieve it with a wet towel (IIRC, I even slept with it), je je. I'll try it again sometime, because I know I do tan at certain degree (at least more than my parents and certain siblings), but I'll try it in a different way, of course. In my youth I took lots and lots of sun (way more than I take now), and I did tan a bit, which proves it's possible. :) It doesn't mean I'm a heat/sunlight lover. It's just that suntan could have helped in tropics, and it would also have avoided that "ghost looking". I actually love mountains, and I do like cold and cloudy weather (likely an issue related to my retina).
> 
> By the way, I think dark hair and white skin a beautiful combination. Caitriona Balfe, for example:


She's a bit ruddy in coloring. My coloring is closer to Michele Dockery or Tiziana Piergianni, a sort of, as you said, "milk" color with bluish undertones, no ruddiness, no freckles. I also have brown eyes which makes it even more unusual to people. I've always gotten a lot of "What are you?" here in the U.S. :) I got my mother's dark hair and dark eyes, and my father's skin color, but minus the tendency to freckle, thank goodness. That would have been even more weird. It's certainly gotten me my fair share of attention, but you can look very washed out minus eye makeup, lipstick and blush. You know, like Dracula's bride after he's drained all the blood out of her. :) Almost every time I would see my doctor he would remark on my paleness and do a Vitamin D and anemia screen. In between he would forget it's just my natural coloring. 

(We actually went to a number of Halloween parties as Dracula and his bride. I barely had to do anything at all other than paint bite marks on my neck and wear a negligee. :))

Here's Michele Dockery all made up. There's foundation and bronzer and blush on her face. The arms are her real color. Like a bottle of milk, indeed.



Tiziana Piergianni...in most of her modeling shots she's spray tanned up the wazoo.


When I was a little girl and my parents would take me to the beach at Fiascherino or Monterosso, I would get huge blisters on my shoulders, my back, even my feet. When they popped and the skin had to be disinfected it was agony. She used to put Calamine lotion on my skin when we got here. I don't even know if they sell it any more. I think part of the problem may be that I have very small pores, so I don't think I cool off from sweating as much as most people. Meanwhile, I love the beach and the sun. The sun just doesn't love me.

Anyway, enough of that. That should be someone's biggest problem, right?

I do, btw, get a bit of a tan if I go very slow and easy: 15 minutes one day, half hour a day for a couple of days, maybe up to an hour a day, but never in Florida in summer or anything like that. Problem is that no one knows I have a tan! :)

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## Regio X

> She's a bit ruddy in coloring. My coloring is closer to Michele Dockery or Tiziana Piergianni, a sort of, as you said, "milk" color with bluish undertones, no ruddiness, no freckles. I also have brown eyes which makes it even more unusual to people. I've always gotten a lot of "What are you?" here in the U.S. :) I got my mother's dark hair and dark eyes, and my father's skin color, but minus the tendency to freckle, thank goodness. That would have been even more weird. It's certainly gotten me my fair share of attention, but you can look very washed out minus eye makeup, lipstick and blush. You know, like Dracula's bride after he's drained all the blood out of her. :) Almost every time I would see my doctor he would remark on my paleness and do a Vitamin D and anemia screen. In between he would forget it's just my natural coloring. 
> 
> (We actually went to a number of Halloween parties as Dracula and his bride. I barely had to do anything at all other than paint bite marks on my neck and wear a negligee. :))
> 
> Here's Michele Dockery all made up. There's foundation and bronzer and blush on her face. The arms are her real color. Like a bottle of milk, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Tiziana Piergianni...in most of her modeling shots she's spray tanned up the wazoo.
> ...


Yes, apparently she is a bit ruddy. In scenes of Outlander I had the impression she was white (less ruddy) though. Perhaps it was just a makeup, in order to fit her better to the character? Well, she's certainly beautiful, and there is an interesting contrast anyway.

As for Halloween parties, ah ah ah, well, perhaps Morticia Addams would have worked too. Have you ever tried this one? :)

Concerning the vit D, something similar happened to me once when doing a "check up". The doctor thought I had some problem, based on my skin, then I just told him that it was my normal, je je. That was in an area where people are much more swarthy on average, which possibly explains his impression. In USA it would have been another story, I guess. 

Regarding "climate preferences", I think you'd like cloudy weather in a tropical place as well. :) I tend to have problem with sunlight, in special without sun glasses, but naturally it depends on strenght (latitude, month of the year, or on the time of the day simply). "Weaker" sun is ok. Like it too. But heat... Nah. I'm hot-natured. 
Perhaps a factoid, but I remember to have read that these preferences such for sunny or cloudy weather could be related to certain SNPs as well. Didn't find them now. But I remember my results made sense in front of my actual preferences. Perhaps a coincidence. 
Finally, I prefer mountains anyway (since ever), but I like beaches under many clouds and air temperature below 23-24, je je je. Last year my wife almost literally dragged me to the beach. Twice. The second experience was decent when it comes to weather. I was lucky. But the first... It affected even my mood.
I felt in paradise once in "Praia Brava", Florianópolis. It was summer, but the sky was completely covered by clouds, with wind and relatively mild temperature (~23). I took a happy beach bath. My girlfriend (now wife) thought I was crazy. Hope she was wrong. Lol

The place where I was born is close to latitude 30°, so the sun may be very strong in there. But it's at least a sort of Sierra (technically, it'd be an escarpment), many times rainny, with fogs etc. and no drier season. It helped. But then I moved to a completely different place, certainly worst for me when it comes to climate. Well, that's life. :) Funnily, some locals find the place cold. Lol

Believe me, milk folks tend to end up with very different skin tone in the tropics, unless you spend most of the day indoor in most part of your life, or use sunblock all the time, which is not usual. You would not necessarily become tanned, but your color would change to something else, even if it took long.
Not sure how to describe it, but some milkies eventually get a bit tanned (ones more, others less...), while others keep pinkish - or something - most of the time, or highly spotted, and on and on. You likely know it, since US has many areas with strong sunlight and white people.
Cancer is another thing. Original skin tone must compete in some way, of course, but it's not the whole story. Mother-in-law and maternal grandparent are examples of milkies that took lots of sun by whole life and didn't get cancer. In her case, I'm based on her genetic similarity to you. 
My parents were similar in skin tone, with the difference my father is more "spotted". He's even more careful than her in protecting from the sun; still, he had to extract carcinoma already (IIRC, one in arm and other in the back), as a (ex-)mikie brother of mine (in turn extracted from his face). Point is that additional SNPs must play a role. I myself extracted a "thing" close to one eye, but at the end biopsy showed it was nothing bad. Surgeon said the procedure could "deform" that area, but I've gone ahead and thankfully it didn't happen.
So, that heterozygosity at SLC24A5 seems very relevant, as per my wife's tone, and it could have been good for my son. Pity the allele was missed.

Btw, you should not blame your father. Your mother is responsible for the other half. Lol 
Just kidding. I understand what you mean. ;)




> I do, btw, get a bit of a tan if I go very slow and easy: 15 minutes one day, half hour a day for a couple of days, maybe up to an hour a day, but never in Florida in summer or anything like that. Problem is that no one knows I have a tan! :)


That's precisely what I wanna do. Tanned skin is a good and "practical" sunblocker, and taking some sun (in the right way) is good. 

Yeah, enough with this (quasi-)off-topic. :)

Cheers

----------


## Ack

> She's a bit ruddy in coloring. My coloring is closer to Michele Dockery or Tiziana Piergianni, a sort of, as you said, "milk" color with bluish undertones, no ruddiness, no freckles. I also have brown eyes which makes it even more unusual to people. I've always gotten a lot of "What are you?" here in the U.S. :) I got my mother's dark hair and dark eyes, and my father's skin color, but minus the tendency to freckle, thank goodness. That would have been even more weird. It's certainly gotten me my fair share of attention, but you can look very washed out minus eye makeup, lipstick and blush. You know, like Dracula's bride after he's drained all the blood out of her. :) Almost every time I would see my doctor he would remark on my paleness and do a Vitamin D and anemia screen. In between he would forget it's just my natural coloring. 
> 
> (We actually went to a number of Halloween parties as Dracula and his bride. I barely had to do anything at all other than paint bite marks on my neck and wear a negligee. :))
> 
> Here's Michele Dockery all made up. There's foundation and bronzer and blush on her face. The arms are her real color. Like a bottle of milk, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Tiziana Piergianni...in most of her modeling shots she's spray tanned up the wazoo.
> ...



Judging by the description you would be the base color Mac NC10. I am a hairdresser and makeup artist. My color is NC15, but here in Brazil my clients usually use NC20 and NC25. I have a redheaded client who is NC5.
In a makeup course we learned that brown eyed customers are rarely below NC20, but I have had brown eyed customers NC15 and NC10.





I am a mixture of NC15 and NC10 and my eyes are green. The NC10 is too bright and the 15 is dark. When I mix the two it is right.

----------


## Angela

> Judging by the description you would be the base color Mac NC10. I am a hairdresser and makeup artist. My color is NC15, but here in Brazil my clients usually use NC20 and NC25. I have a redheaded client who is NC5.
> In a makeup course we learned that brown eyed customers are rarely below NC20, but I have had brown eyed customers NC15 and NC10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a mixture of NC15 and NC10 and my eyes are green. The NC10 is too bright and the 15 is dark. When I mix the two it is right.


The MAC NC10 is too yellow for me. If I wear foundation, which I don't often do, it's the Anastasia N100. I'm sure if you did my makeup, you could mix colors and with the use of some bronzer and the right blush you could make it look less mask like, but alas, I don't have your skill, so most of the time I just wear a tinted moisturizer, usually Clinique in very fair/porcelain and a little blush. My pores are very small, I have no discolored areas, and for the two small sun spots which have shown up I just use a concealer, so it works out all right. 

@Regio,
Oh, I've indeed gone to parties as Morticia, and my husband as Gomez, although dancing in it, even walking normally, is a challenge, and I've even gone as Elvira. I got way too much attention as Elvira for my husband's taste, so that costume got tossed out. :) Thank God it was cheap!

----------


## Regio X

> The MAC NC10 is too yellow for me. If I wear foundation, which I don't often do, it's the Anastasia N100. I'm sure if you did my makeup, you could mix colors and with the use of some bronzer and the right blush you could make it look less mask like, but alas, I don't have your skill, so most of the time I just wear a tinted moisturizer, usually Clinique in very fair/porcelain and a little blush. My pores are very small, I have no discolored areas, and for the two small sun spots which have shown up I just use a concealer, so it works out all right. 
> 
> @Regio,
> Oh, I've indeed gone to parties as Morticia, and my husband as Gomez, although dancing in it, even walking normally, is a challenge, and I've even gone as Elvira. I got way too much attention as Elvira for my husband's taste, so that costume got tossed out. :) Thank God it was cheap!


Never heard about Elvira. Nice! :)

About the beautiful Michele Dockery... Out of curiosity, my girlfriend (now wife) and I spent a time in Argentina time ago, and we stayed in an Airbnb bedroom. When we arrived, an Argentinian girl was already occupying the best one in that house. Anyway, it called our attention the fact she was Michele Dockery's double. Also tall, perhaps slightly "stronger" in body, but virtually the same face, so also very beautiful. We didn't remember the name of the actress, but we commented something like: Hey, you look that girl of Downton Abbey. She answered that she heard it all the time. Well, impossible not hearing it, given the amazing similarity. What is also interesting is that the girl had Southern European ancestry. No British ancestry at all. Really curious how two people of very different ethnicities can be so similar physically sometimes.

Tiziana is also very beautiful.

----------


## Angela

> Never heard about Elvira. Nice! :)
> 
> About the beautiful Michele Dockery... Out of curiosity, my girlfriend (now wife) and I spent a time in Argentina time ago, and we stayed in an Airbnb bedroom. When we arrived, an Argentinian girl was already occupying the best one in that house. Anyway, it called our attention the fact she was Michele Dockery's double. Also tall, perhaps slightly "stronger" in body, but virtually the same face, so also very beautiful. We didn't remember the name of the actress, but we commented something like: Hey, you look that girl of Downton Abbey. She answered that she heard it all the time. Well, impossible not hearing it, given the amazing similarity. What is also interesting is that the girl had Southern European ancestry. No British ancestry at all. Really curious how two people of very different ethnicities can be so similar physically sometimes.
> 
> Tiziana is also very beautiful.


I have almost the exact same coloring as Michele Dockery, but I don't think I look very much like her. If you click on my name and go to profile there's a picture of me when I was about to go to university. The dress is the palest pink, which is why you can't tell the difference between the dress and my skin. I learned not to make mistakes like that as I got older. :)

My body type is completely different, different from my mother's, who had a very "boyish" build, and whom most people in those days called "skinny", and more "Emilian", i.e. "fuller", more of an hour glass figure even at my thinnest. 

So, no, not phenotype "twins", in my case.

----------


## Regio X

> I have almost the exact same coloring as Michele Dockery, but I don't think I look very much like her. If you click on my name and go to profile there's a picture of me when I was about to go to university. The dress is the palest pink, which is why you can't tell the difference between the dress and my skin. I learned not to make mistakes like that as I got older. :)
> 
> My body type is completely different, different from my mother's, who had a very "boyish" build, and whom most people in those days called "skinny", and more "Emilian", i.e. "fuller", more of an hour glass figure even at my thinnest. 
> 
> So, no, not phenotype "twins", in my case.


I've checked it. You're different from my sis, but you both look pretty Italian in looking. 

I actually remember of a picture of yours in the old 23andMe forum, in which the milkie skin really called attention. IIRC, the clothes in that picture were black, which added up to hair and highlighted the skin tone even more. :)

----------


## Angela

> I've checked it. You're different from my sis, but you both look pretty Italian in looking. 
> 
> I actually remember of a picture of yours in the old 23andMe forum, in which the milkie skin really called attention. IIRC, the clothes in that picture were black, which added up to hair and highlighted the skin tone even more. :)


I think so too, although not to Americans. My father thought I looked like a dark haired and dark eyed Alida Valli, whom he loved, but you know fathers. :)

Goodness. You do go far back in this hobby. It was actually a royal blue dress, and I was wearing pearls, but it was against a dark brown background. Maybe I'll swap it out for the current one.

Anyway, getting back to these snps, depending on the exact combination and how much immunity you have to cancer generally, people with very fair skin who get burned too often do suffer for it, either in a sort of permanent "pinky" tone with what look like lots of freckles, which are actually sun damage spots, or various larger sun damage spots, or skin cancers, non-invasive, or melanoma.

My father had the former, although he never lived in the tropics, but because he was a contractor, often outdoors, and more so in the summer months. He also got a few of the more benign skin cancers when he got older, and had to have them removed. I've had one removed from my shoulder as well. 

The predominantly British descent people of Australia are the best example of this. 

"There are three main types of skin cancer:
basal cell carcinomasquamous cell carcinomamelanoma - the most dangerous form of skin cancer
Both basal cell carcinoma and squamous cell carcinoma are known as non-melanoma skin cancer.
Approximately, two in three Australians will be diagnosed with skin cancer by the time they are 70. Non-melanoma skin cancer is more common in men, with almost double the incidence compared to women.
Excluding non-melanoma skin cancer,* melanoma is the third most common cancer in Australians. In 2015, 13,694 Australians were diagnosed with melanoma.
Every year, in Australia:

skin cancers account for around 80% of all newly diagnosed cancersthe majority of skin cancers are caused by exposure to the sunGPs have over 1 million patient consultations per year for skin cancerthe incidence of skin cancer is one of the highest in the world, two to three times the rates in Canada, the US and the UK."
https://www.cancer.org.au/about-canc...in-cancer.html


Their evolution didn't prepare them for the climate in which they live.

One good thing about that first terrible sun poisoning incident when I was newly married and the scolding I got from the doctors is that I've always been very careful about sun exposure. (Thank God for sunscreen too!) That and good heredity means I have very little wrinkling. I have Irish friends my age who look fifteen to twenty years older.

----------


## Ailchu

> Judging by the description you would be the base color Mac NC10. I am a hairdresser and makeup artist. My color is NC15, but here in Brazil my clients usually use NC20 and NC25. I have a redheaded client who is NC5.
> In a makeup course we learned that brown eyed customers are rarely below NC20, but I have had brown eyed customers NC15 and NC10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a mixture of NC15 and NC10 and my eyes are green. The NC10 is too bright and the 15 is dark. When I mix the two it is right.


i have never seen someone, who isn't tanned and i mean really no tan at all, with a darker skin tone than that NC15 no matter what eye color. other than people with SSA or south asian ancestry.

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## Ack

> I think so too, although not to Americans. My father thought I looked like a dark haired and dark eyed Alida Valli, whom he loved, but you know fathers. :)
> 
> Goodness. You do go far back in this hobby. It was actually a royal blue dress, and I was wearing pearls, but it was against a dark brown background. Maybe I'll swap it out for the current one.
> 
> Anyway, getting back to these snps, depending on the exact combination and how much immunity you have to cancer generally, people with very fair skin who get burned too often do suffer for it, either in a sort of permanent "pinky" tone with what look like lots of freckles, which are actually sun damage spots, or various larger sun damage spots, or skin cancers, non-invasive, or melanoma.
> 
> My father had the former, although he never lived in the tropics, but because he was a contractor, often outdoors, and more so in the summer months. He also got a few of the more benign skin cancers when he got older, and had to have them removed. I've had one removed from my shoulder as well. 
> 
> The predominantly British descent people of Australia are the best example of this. 
> ...


I currently live on the coast of São Paulo - Santos. Last summer, a cousin insisted on going to the beach on a very hot day. We made the mistake of not renting a tent and being in the sun. I sat on the sand and noticed that my knees were red, but ignored it. A few minutes later, it started to burn a lot and to give bubbles. I remained irresponsible and only covered my knees with a bath towel. Usually in our family we burn first and turn red, but then the red turns to a tan - we are not extremely pale and I thought it would just be another case where the redness becomes a tan later - and I continued on the beach without much concerns, but then I started to feel sick and ended up in the emergency room with heat stroke.

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## Ack

> i have never seen someone, who isn't tanned and i mean really no tan at all, with a darker skin tone than that NC15 no matter what eye color. other than people with SSA or south asian ancestry.


Makeup products only reveal the true color when they are evenly spread on the skin. They always look darker when they are concentrated on the packaging or on a very small piece of skin. To understand the colors you need to see how they look after eplication. In videos like this:

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## Angela

> Makeup products only reveal the true color when they are evenly spread on the skin. They always look darker when they are concentrated on the packaging or on a very small piece of skin. To understand the colors you need to see how they look after eplication. In videos like this:


I was about to post the same thing, but then thought maybe you'd respond as an expert. I was going to say that all the 100s and 200s are for "white" skin when blended on the face. It's why here in the U.S. you go to someplace like Sephora and have them apply samples to different parts of your face or inner arm to get a better idea. Even then it looks different sometimes when you go home and apply it to your whole face. In my experience at Sephora they don't have a lot of 4.5 or 4.75 to sell because only redheads wear it. Ten is the easiest of the light shades to find, but as I said, it's too yellow for me. That's why I go with the Anastasia.



Men don't get it. :)

Sun poisoning and sun stroke are terrible. Only after going through it do you understand how important it is to monitor what kind and how much sun exposure you're getting.

I looked even worse than this poor girl because one side of my face was swollen to twice its size and was bright red. I was hysterical; I thought I'd be marred for life. 


I guess this is my public service announcement for the day. :)

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## Duarte

> I currently live on the coast of São Paulo - Santos. Last summer, a cousin insisted on going to the beach on a very hot day. We made the mistake of not renting a tent and being in the sun. I sat on the sand and noticed that my knees were red, but ignored it. A few minutes later, it started to burn a lot and to give bubbles. I remained irresponsible and only covered my knees with a bath towel. Usually in our family we burn first and turn red, but then the red turns to a tan - we are not extremely pale and I thought it would just be another case where the redness becomes a tan later - and I continued on the beach without much concerns, but then I started to feel sick and ended up in the emergency room with heat stroke.


There are activities that make me extremely red: Intense physical activity, dry or steam sauna, bath in hot water and, certainly, the first day at the beach. In the case of the beach, in two or three days later the red skinned turns into an intense tan. My wife don’t stay tan in the beach (only stay with red skinned) and she has many freckles, mainly on the upper back and chest, due to the excessive exposure to the sun in her youth. Today she only leaves home using a sunblock, as recommended by a doctor. Her doctor recommended the same thing to me, that is, the use of sunblock ever I outside home. I told him it was not necessary, showing him the color of my arms. He asked me to stay half-naked and tell me: I am not prescribing based on the color of your body parts that, daily, stay exposed to sun, but based in your original skin tone. You also have to take care of yourself and not just your wife.

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## Regio X

> I think so too, although not to Americans. My father thought I looked like a dark haired and dark eyed Alida Valli, whom he loved, but you know fathers. :)
> 
> Goodness. You do go far back in this hobby. It was actually a royal blue dress, and I was wearing pearls, but it was against a dark brown background. Maybe I'll swap it out for the current one.
> 
> Anyway, getting back to these snps, depending on the exact combination and how much immunity you have to cancer generally, people with very fair skin who get burned too often do suffer for it, either in a sort of permanent "pinky" tone with what look like lots of freckles, which are actually sun damage spots, or various larger sun damage spots, or skin cancers, non-invasive, or melanoma.
> 
> My father had the former, although he never lived in the tropics, but because he was a contractor, often outdoors, and more so in the summer months. He also got a few of the more benign skin cancers when he got older, and had to have them removed. I've had one removed from my shoulder as well. 
> 
> The predominantly British descent people of Australia are the best example of this. 
> ...


So here we can have an idea: :)


Oh! Was it blue? It was black in my memory. Sorry. 
Yeah, some time ago. Four years more specifically. Even before I return 23andMe samples.

Thanks for the infos. Yeah, I'm sure white skin is a "risk factor" for cancer, especially under strong sunlight. What I meant is that some predisposition must also exist. "How strong" the sun is and "how white" the individual is also matter, of course. My bet is that my mother would never get skin cancer, even being very white originally (she still is, but now she's a bit spotted or something), while my father must take more care, because skin cancer runs in family (siblings also got it). Not in my mother's. 
I took care for a while, especially after the surgery, using sunblock for long time and other things (such arm sleeves with UV protection), but I got tired. I don't use them anymore. Now I just avoid taking sun for too long, and that's it.
My poor godmother (born in Treviso-TV) died from melanoma in Brazil, btw. Very sad.
As for the type of carcinoma my father and my brother had, I've no idea. Hope they had the basal, but who knows! Despite my mother doesn't have this predisposition, very little "injuries" pop up with certain frequency in both of them, especially in the arms, and especially in my father. They're now preventing skin cancer through a cream called Efurix (fluorouracil). It's used in these injuries.
Tropics may be really "difficult" for some people.

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## Angela

^^ :Smile: 

Well, I think I got the skin color down, and face shape,and chin and cheekbones, and texture of the hair, but on top of the totally different eye and hair color, the nose is different, especially in profile, and my eyes are further apart, so no, not "phenotype twins".



I don't think I have one.

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## Ack

I believe she represents the 'darkest' type among Europeans. She is the princess of Monaco - Stephanie of Monaco - 
when she was young.












It is extremely difficult to find photos where she does not look tanned.

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## Angela

> I believe she represents the 'darkest' type among Europeans. She is the princess of Monaco - Stephanie of Monaco - 
> when she was young.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think she was as dark as her father or grandmother. It's just, as you say, that she was always tan. Fabulous body, too.

The grandmother was a de Polignac, and very olive skinned it seems, given this wasn't a time when aristocrats would have been baking in the sun.

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## Regio X

It may be difficult to "not" keep tanned in an area such Riviera. :)

@Angela 
I tried to sent you a message, but the submission returned error. It says you have exceeded quota.

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## Angela

> It may be difficult to "not" keep tanned in an area such Riviera. :)
> @Angela 
> I tried to sent you a message, but the submission returned error. It says you have exceeded quota.


Sorry, Regio. They accumulate when you're a moderator. :)

I've cleaned out a good number of them.

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## Angela

> It may be difficult to "not" keep tanned in an area such Riviera. :)


I manage, and I'm always there in the summer nowadays. :) It requires effort; I will say that.

Some of our Miss Ligurias manage to stay pale, some not so much, because as you say, even if you wear a hat, as Princess Grace often did, for example, it still gets you, but some of the Grimaldi's of Monaco really were quite olive skinned, especially Caroline, imo, and as a result could turn practically mahogany in the sun, more like Southern Italians.



Tiziana Piergianni


Camilla Parigi


Cecilia Anfossi:


I would say they probably all have the full complement of depigmentation snps.


The Grimaldis

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## Regio X

> I manage, and I'm always there in the summer nowadays. :) It requires effort; I will say that.
> 
> Some of our Miss Ligurias manage to stay pale, some not so much, because as you say, even if you wear a hat, as Princess Grace often did, for example, it still gets you, but some of the Grimaldi's of Monaco really were quite olive skinned, especially Caroline, imo, and as a result could turn practically mahogany in the sun, more like Southern Italians.
> 
> 
> 
> Tiziana Piergianni
> 
> 
> ...


It's just that open air in Riviera must be too inviting. :) 
Well, when you have a too sensible skin, it's probably a good thing hiding from the sun, especially at certain hours of the day.

I know what you mean by burning just with reflection. It happened to me, for example, in one of those nice beaches I visited last year, in Northeast of Brazil. Problem is that you have no idea it's happening. You think you're protected, but suddenly you realize you just burned, without knowing how at a first moment. 

Beautiful girls. Btw, I guess that girl above is not Camilla Parigi. She must be Nicole Mantovan (probably) or Alessia Lamberti.

Camilla


Nicole


Alessia

----------


## Angela

> It's just that open air in Riviera must be too inviting. :) 
> Well, when you have a too sensible skin, it's probably a good thing hiding from the sun, especially at certain hours of the day.
> I know what you mean by burning just with reflection. It happened to me, for example, in one of those nice beaches I visited last year, in Northeast of Brazil. Problem is that you have no idea it's happening. You think you're protected, but suddenly you realize you just burned, without knowing how at a first moment. 
> Beautiful girls. Btw, I guess that girl above is not Camilla Parigi. She must be Nicole Mantovan (probably) or Alessia Lamberti.
> Camilla
> 
> Nicole
> 
> Alessia


Oh dear, confused your Nicole for Alessia. Wouldn't want to claim one of the Veneto's blondes. :)

Rest easy, the honor of the Veneto is restored!

Nice to know even after generations Italians of the diaspora keep up with things like the Miss Italia competition. :)

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## Regio X

> Oh dear, confused your Nicole for Alessia. Wouldn't want to claim one of the Veneto's blondes. :)
> Rest easy, the honor of the Veneto is restored! 
> Nice to know even after generations Italians of the diaspora keep up with things like the Miss Italia competition. :)


I have no idea what you're talking about, since I thought they were all Ligurians. Nicole, from Arenzano, Genova. Alessia, from Sanremo. Plus, the third one yourself posted seems the most blond (or "Northern") (!). I don't even know if they won Miss Italia, btw. 
Actually I thought you'd find it interesting.
You should not be so rushed in judging, Angela. Even if they were Venetians, I'm not "one post". My "context" in this forum go beyond it, and would never allow such unfair interpretation. A good question would be: why would you think that? It's something you should work with, since I don't recognize myself in your post. At all.
Finally, don't forget that you're dealing with people here, and all of us deserve the "presumption of innocence", till the opposite is at least evidenced. I'll never be "guilty" on this though.

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## Angela

> I have no idea what you're talking about, since I thought they were all Ligurians. Nicole, from Arenzano, Genova. Alessia, from Sanremo. Plus, the third one yourself posted seems the most blond (or "Northern") (!). I don't even know if they won Miss Italia, btw. 
> Actually I thought you'd find it interesting.
> You should not be so rushed in judging, Angela. Even if they were Venetians, I'm not "one post". My "context" in this forum go beyond it, and would never allow such unfair interpretation. A good question would be: why would you think that? It's something you should work with, since I don't recognize myself in your post. At all.
> Finally, don't forget that you're dealing with people here, and all of us deserve the "presumption of innocence", till the opposite is at least evidenced. I'll never be "guilty" on this though.


Regio, I have no idea what you're talking about. There's been some huge misunderstanding. You have totally misjudged the tone and meaning of my post.

I was teasing; making a joke. I didn't remember the girl's surname. When I saw from your post her surname was Mantovan, I knew she was likely not Ligurian and I must have made a mistake, and indeed when I looked it up in gens labo, the name is heavily represented in the Veneto. 

Really, I don't understand where this comes from. I've always been an admirer of the fact that South American Italians, unlike Italians here including my own children, have managed to keep up with affairs at home in Italy. 

It was a lighthearted exchange with someone I thought was my friend, even if only an internet friend. I'm sorry if I inadvertently offended you somehow.

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## torzio

> Regio, I have no idea what you're talking about. There's been some huge misunderstanding. You have totally misjudged the tone and meaning of my post.
> 
> I was teasing; making a joke. I didn't remember the girl's surname. When I saw from your post her surname was Mantovan, I knew she was likely not Ligurian and I must have made a mistake, and indeed when I looked it up in gens labo, the name is heavily represented in the Veneto. 
> 
> Really, I don't understand where this comes from. I've always been an admirer of the fact that South American Italians, unlike Italians here including my own children, have managed to keep up with affairs at home in Italy. 
> 
> It was a lighthearted exchange with someone I thought was my friend, even if only an internet friend. I'm sorry if I inadvertently offended you somehow.


Mantovan , interesting .............is she related to ANA MANTOVAN 
H95a mtDNA HAPLOGROUP ........................are her ancestors from Pieve di Coriano, Mantova, Lombardia,

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## Regio X

> Regio, I have no idea what you're talking about. There's been some huge misunderstanding. You have totally misjudged the tone and meaning of my post.
> 
> I was teasing; making a joke. I didn't remember the girl's surname. When I saw from your post her surname was Mantovan, I knew she was likely not Ligurian and I must have made a mistake, and indeed when I looked it up in gens labo, the name is heavily represented in the Veneto. 
> 
> Really, I don't understand where this comes from. I've always been an admirer of the fact that South American Italians, unlike Italians here including my own children, have managed to keep up with affairs at home in Italy. 
> 
> It was a lighthearted exchange with someone I thought was my friend, even if only an internet friend. I'm sorry if I inadvertently offended you somehow.


Oops. Now I'm embarassed, Angela. I guess I was the one who rushed after all. 
I re-read your post, and it was indeed a misunderstanding on my side. I got confused. Your friendly tone was evident, yes.
I'm probably tired, since I've been sleeping late and waking up early. My son decided to play the singing rooster at mornings. Lol The night is when I finally find the time to do some things I like, but at certain cost, as you can see.
Please accept my apologies. 
I'm really glad to know you consider me a friend, and actually the feeling is mutual. :)

@torzio
Nicole Mantovan is from Genova.

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## Ack

> Oh dear, confused your Nicole for Alessia. Wouldn't want to claim one of the Veneto's blondes. :)
> 
> Rest easy, the honor of the Veneto is restored!
> 
> Nice to know even after generations Italians of the diaspora keep up with things like the Miss Italia competition. :)



The facial structure of these people is incredibly beautiful. They resemble mises in Latin America - many times champions of the Miss World. In fact: it would make more sense to say that Latin mises resemble Europeans since ancestry is generally European - native beauty is very underrepresented in these contests.



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## Angela

> The facial structure of these people is incredibly beautiful. They resemble mises in Latin America - many times champions of the Miss World. In fact: it would make more sense to say that Latin mises resemble Europeans since ancestry is generally European - native beauty is very underrepresented in these contests.
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
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> ...


I went back to look at them after reading your post. If you ignore the differences in pigmentation, these four Ligurian women have basically the same general facial structure.

Either that means it's relatively prevalent there and/or that's what the judges think is beautiful. :)

Yet, I can't offhand remember the last time Miss Liguria won.

You can find that type in other areas of Italy too. Here is Miriam Leone of Sicily. I don't think the hair is her real color, but it certainly suits her. She looks like Botticelli's Venus here. :)




This is Giusy Buscemi. I think she's gorgeous, but the bone structure is stronger I think, lips fuller etc.



Also, absolutely stunning imo.

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## Ack

> I went back to look at them after reading your post. If you ignore the differences in pigmentation, these four Ligurian women have basically the same general facial structure.
> 
> Either that means it's relatively prevalent there and/or that's what the judges think is beautiful. :)
> 
> Yet, I can't offhand remember the last time Miss Liguria won.
> 
> You can find that type in other areas of Italy too. Here is Miriam Leone of Sicily. I don't think the hair is her real color, but it certainly suits her. She looks like Botticelli's Venus here. :)
> 
> 
> ...


All beautiful. The redhead is certainly dyed because you can see her natural root, but she looks amazing redhead. Her eyes are incredible. About phenotypes and regions: it makes sense that in northern Italy the light phenotypes are a little more common, but I believe that there is not much difference in general.



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