# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Positive for CTS8489 but Negative for CTS8862

## BMW

FTDNA has determined my Y-DNA haplogroup to be T-CTS11984. They have also determined that I am positive for CTS8489 but negative for CTS8862.
Can anyone recommend any additional SNPs I should be tested for to help explain this...and help grow my haplotree, as well?

----------


## zanipolo

> FTDNA has determined my Y-DNA haplogroup to be T-CTS11984. They have also determined that I am positive for CTS8489 but negative for CTS8862.
> Can anyone recommend any additional SNPs I should be tested for to help explain this...and help grow my haplotree, as well?


join facebook

y-dna haplogroup T formerly known as K2

you might get an answer there by Esteban, he is good for T haplogroup

----------


## zanipolo

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png


bottom left is your group......might give you an idea on what to check

----------


## BMW

Thanks, zanipolo!

----------


## BMW

In the Phylogenetic T-M184 tree there is no mention of CTS8862....which I am Negative to.
I am also negative to Y17493 and "presumed" negative to Z19945 and CTS1848.
The furthest positive I go to in this tree is CTS8489.

CTS8862 and CTS8489 are not the same.

----------


## Salento

In the tree the Alias for CTS8862 is CTS8489 (as of now)

If your positives and negatives are all real, eventually CTS8489 will become the Father of CTS8862, because I’m positive for both of them plus Z19945.

CTS11984
CTS8862
pages00113y17493*Z19945*
cts1848

----------


## zanipolo

Do you have pages00113 ?
Usually a danish or north german T person

----------


## BMW

zanipolo,
I show as "presumed negative" for pages00113.

Salento,
Thanks for sharing your insight into CTS8489 possibly becoming the Father of CTS8862. 

I appreciate both of your responses.

----------


## BMW

FTDNA now has my hg as CTS8489.....(and still negative for CTS8862).

----------


## torzio

> FTDNA now has my hg as CTS8489.....(and still negative for CTS8862).


CTS8489 and in the same branch CTS8862 ............there is no issue........I have a negative in one SNP in the main SNP M184 group of many SNP's ...........I am also negative for SNP pages000113 which is in same group


*Upstream SNPs:* 
M184>L490>M70>Z19859>L131>L446>Y6055>CTS933>Z19939>CTS11984>CTS8862
ISOGG Tree (2019): T1a2b1a1
*TMRCA* (YFull Tree)
T-CTS8489: 3,100 ybp (2,200-4,100 ybp @ 95%) (T-CTS8489 is at the same level as T-CTS8862)

T-CTS1848: 2,500 ybp (1,450-3,900 ybp @95%)

*TMRCA* (JewishDNA.net)


T-CTS8862 AB-017: 198 BCE - 977 CE (@95%)





https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/y-dna-haplogroups-of-ashkenazi-jews/haplogroup-t-y-dna-clusters-for-ashkenazi-jews

----------


## Salento

> CTS8489 and in the same branch CTS8862 ............there is no issue........I have a negative in one SNP in the main SNP M184 group of many SNP's ...........I am also negative for SNP pages000113 which is in same group
> 
> 
> *Upstream SNPs:* 
> M184>L490>M70>Z19859>L131>L446>Y6055>CTS933>Z19939>CTS11984>CTS8862
> ISOGG Tree (2019): T1a2b1a1
> *TMRCA* (YFull Tree)
> T-CTS8489: 3,100 ybp (2,200-4,100 ybp @ 95%) (T-CTS8489 is at the same level as T-CTS8862)
> 
> ...


I’m also negative for y T PAGES00113 and the other 2 Ashkenazi y T clusters: BY11520 and Y31472.

About that link:

Does that means that almost all the T CTS8862 labeled as Ashkenazi Jewish are actually positive for PAGES00113 ?

----------


## torzio

> I’m also negative for y T PAGES00113 and the other 2 Ashkenazi y T clusters: BY11520 and Y31472.
> 
> About that link:
> 
> Does that means that almost all the T CTS8862 labeled as Ashkenazi Jewish are actually positive for PAGES00113 ?


yes, it says of the 50 samples of CTS8862 or under CTS8862 , only the 4 samples of Pages00113 are jewish 

*Based upon the sample set, it appears that T-PAGES00113 may be the only Ashkenazi subcluster within the T-CTS8862 cluster.*

----------


## BMW

I'm still trying to understand how T-CTS8489 and T-CTS882 are at the same level. I am positive for one and negative for the other while there are people that are positive for both.

----------


## torzio

> I'm still trying to understand how T-CTS8489 and T-CTS882 are at the same level. I am positive for one and negative for the other while there are people that are positive for both.


And this is why you branch splits off from there
Yfull has a T-CTS8489*........maybe you will fall under that branch once it is established

----------


## BMW

Thanks, torzio!

----------


## BMW

Hello to everyone.

I received my Big y-700 results from FTDNA on October 2.

I am now T1a2-Z19943.
I am also now "presumed positive" for CTS8862 and Z19945.

I now believe my Walsh family line stems from a Flemish (maybe Norman) knight named "Hait" in 11th / 12th century south Wales.
He was possibly from the Wallonia-Flanders region or the Amiens area of France...(Armorica, in general?)
Hait's ancestors may well have been from the Alan tribe who made their way westward from the Black Sea region (and maybe the Caspian Sea region before that).

I would greatly appreciate any feedback.

----------


## Salento

*T-Z19945* equivalencies:

FT118348 CTS12204 Z19889 Z19879 *Z19943* Z19883 Z19928 FT127660 FT127658

----------


## BMW

Hi Salento,

So we appear to be even closer then I first thought....and I am also negative for CTS1848.
Do you have theories as to where your family was before they arrived in Italy? I suspect when yours settled in Italy is when mine went west (northwest?)into Germany and then into what is now France.

Maybe:



"The Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion (c. 200 CE), and those who remained built a great kingdom between the Don and Volga Rivers, according to Coon, _The Races of Europe_. Between 350 and 374 CE, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and the Alan people were split in half. One half fled to the west, where they participated in the Barbarian Invasions of Rome, established short-lived kingdoms in Spain and North Africa, and settled in many other places such as Orléans, France. The other half fled to the south and settled on the plains of the North Caucasus, where they established their medieval kingdom of Alania."

----------


## Salento

@BMW

Torzio is from the North, maybe he has more info.

As far as my relatives are concerned, they've always been there in the same Town, 2 and 1/2 miles from Lecce.

My town was founded in the 1200s AD by Leccesi soldiers tactical retreating after the troops of Otto IV of Saxony attacked Lecce.

I can go back up up to 5 - 6 generations, (cemetery private chapels).

----------


## torzio

> Hello to everyone.
> 
> I received my Big y-700 results from FTDNA on October 2.
> 
> I am now T1a2-Z19943.
> I am also now "presumed positive" for CTS8862 and Z19945.
> 
> I now believe my Walsh family line stems from a Flemish (maybe Norman) knight named "Hait" in 11th / 12th century south Wales.
> He was possibly from the Wallonia-Flanders region or the Amiens area of France...(Armorica, in general?)
> ...


I have 2 matches which are close to walloon area

François Bernot b. abt 1618, d. 1677 .............from Walloon , the owner of the site, told me his ancestors fled to spain after the spanish netherlands where lost...his family where cannon makers ...............before going to walloon, flanders area, he stated his family came from Gorizia north italy

The other is a person surname Reddick...from USA......originally from Hesse Germany with surname Radich

Bernot is positive for CTS1848 and Z19945 .............unsure for Reddick

I am negative for CTS1848

...................
oops

forgot this new one from Thuringia
Anthonius Hoff, b. 1616 and d. 1677
CTS8862+
7/22/2019( when submitted)

----------


## torzio

> Hi Salento,
> 
> So we appear to be even closer then I first thought....and I am also negative for CTS1848.
> Do you have theories as to where your family was before they arrived in Italy? I suspect when yours settled in Italy is when mine went west (northwest?)into Germany and then into what is now France.
> 
> Maybe:
> 
> 
> 
> "The Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion (c. 200 CE), and those who remained built a great kingdom between the Don and Volga Rivers, according to Coon, _The Races of Europe_. Between 350 and 374 CE, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and the Alan people were split in half. One half fled to the west, where they participated in the Barbarian Invasions of Rome, established short-lived kingdoms in Spain and North Africa, and settled in many other places such as Orléans, France. The other half fled to the south and settled on the plains of the North Caucasus, where they established their medieval kingdom of Alania."


You sit in ftdna T project with a Hoff who is one step from me in my matches ..............you need to chat to Gareth since you have done your y700 and ask him to classify you

I believe your line arrived in europe before the romans emerged ............your line if it is Z19945 is dated as 1460BC ......and it is only found in Europe

----------


## torzio

> @BMW
> 
> Torzio is from the North, maybe he has more info.
> 
> As far as my relatives are concerned, they've always been there in the same Town, 2 and 1/2 miles from Lecce.
> 
> My town was founded in the 1200s AD by Leccesi soldiers tactical retreating after the troops of Otto IV of Saxony attacked Lecce.
> 
> I can go back up up to 5 - 6 generations, (cemetery private chapels).


Do you have a 

*Michael Benedetto, Toretto, Italy*

in your tree 

I know he married a german woman, but his origins are from Marche region even though he is further south today

...............................................

I also have this from Marrovalle , Marche region
*Carmine DiChiara*

----------


## Salento

@Torzio 
I don’t.

one of my matches is Redlich. 
maybe is the same line as Radich.

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> I don’t.
> 
> one of my matches is Redlich. 
> maybe is the same line as Radich.



is it this person ?

*Christopher Rudolph Redlich*


or


*Christian* *Atherholt* 
Born *1724* in *Hanover , Germany*

0 step from myself

.................

one from Belluno, 1680

*Damiano Mozet* ...............0 step from myself

----------


## torzio

My theory is that if you have Z19945 , ..............it was basically in the modern hungarian area in the late bronze-age

----------


## Salento

> is it this person ?
> 
> *Christopher Rudolph Redlich*
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> *Christian* *Atherholt* 
> ...


no, is Warren Redlich

----------


## torzio

> no, is Warren Redlich


his family is in this site

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/REDLICH

when I find out I will let you know

----------


## Salento

> My theory is that if you have Z19945 , ..............it was basically in the modern hungarian area in the late bronze-age


if you’re talking to me, you know that I’m positive for Z19945, unless you’re thinking of BMW.

The Late Bronze Age speculation could apply to me.

----------


## torzio

> if you’re talking to me, you know that I’m positive for Z19945, unless you’re thinking of BMW.


BMW

I assume he will also be Z19945 if gareth looks at his data

.................

*In italy we clearly have an adriatic side only* that I can see

yourself, myself ....2 x marche .........and I am currently chatting with someone from Rimini , surname Soller ( will let you know )

----------


## Salento

> My theory is that if you have Z19945 , ..............it was basically in the modern hungarian area in the late bronze-age






> if you’re talking to me, you know that I’m positive for Z19945, unless you’re thinking of BMW.
> 
> The Late Bronze Age speculation could apply to me.


Maps from my MTA:
_
Late Bronze Age_

_Iron Age_


_Early Medieval Age_


_Medieval Age_

----------


## I()

Beautifull lol! After only 30-50 generations we have almost all the same history here.

----------


## BMW

> @BMW
> 
> Torzio is from the North, maybe he has more info.
> 
> As far as my relatives are concerned, they've always been there in the same Town, 2 and 1/2 miles from Lecce.
> 
> My town was founded in the 1200s AD by Leccesi soldiers tactical retreating after the troops of Otto IV of Saxony attacked Lecce.
> 
> I can go back up up to 5 - 6 generations, (cemetery private chapels).


Salento,
Thanks for your reply.
Any theories as to where your family was pre-13th century?

----------


## Salento

> Salento,
> Thanks for your reply.
> Any theories as to where your family was pre-13th century?


I only know back about 6 generations, but since my autosomal results match by average other Apulians, I assume they were probably around Puglia or Center / South Italy in general.

----------


## BMW

> My theory is that if you have Z19945 , ..............it was basically in the modern hungarian area in the late bronze-age


Torzio,
Thanks for all your input.

Although this is not the same period of time it may still be relevant to the origin of the surname HAIT:

"The surname of HAYDT is a Hungarian occupational name for a drover. Drovers were armed and often became highwaymen and mercenaries. HAYDT acquired both meanings, but the surname is chiefly associated with the settlement of about 10,000 mercenaries in East Hungary by Prince Istvan Bocskay as a reward for their support. Their towns, dating from 1605, still retain HAYDT as a first element. The word was borrowed into German, Polish and Czech to denote an armed retainer of a nobleman."


"The surname Heydt was first found in Bavaria where the name Heidt was anciently associated with the tribal conflicts of the area. They declared allegiances to many nobles and princes of early history, lending their influence in struggles for power and status within the region. They branched into many houses, and their contributions were sought by many leaders in their search for power."

----------


## BMW

Salento,

What I wouldn't give to "only know back about 6 generations"...LOL

What with Irish records, I'm lucky to know who my Dad's grandparents were.

----------


## Salento

@BMW where I am from people stayed very close to their community so people tended to marry in the same area. 

*My 1750 AD Genetic Community (AncestryDNA):*



*Today:*

----------


## torzio

> Salento,
> What I wouldn't give to "only know back about 6 generations"...LOL
> What with Irish records, I'm lucky to know who my Dad's grandparents were.


You can try the site
Geneanet
Its a euro site and i got a lot of info there.....it is free

Of course with any site you need to cross reference

----------


## Salento

@Torzio the reason they don’t include Salento is because of the Griko populations.

(‘cause of my username, I feel the need to say it every time I post these kind of results :) lol

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio the reason they don’t include Salento is because of the Griko populations.
> 
> (‘cause of my username, I feel the need to say it every time I post these kind of results :) lol


I know your surname , .............I was talking to BMW....confused on your comment

----------


## Salento

> I know your surname , .............I was talking to BMW....confused on your comment


Although my User-Name is Salento, AncestryDNA did not include the Salento area in the maps of my Genetic Community.

That's why I felt compelled to explain the reason why.

Because of the Griko population, there are small genetic differentiations between the Salentini.

AncestryDNA realized that I'm not a Griko, and it put me with the other Pugliesi.



(Salento is the Lecce / Brindisi in the grayed out area)

----------


## torzio

> Although my User-Name is Salento, AncestryDNA did not include the Salento area in the maps of my Genetic Community.
> 
> That's why I felt compelled to explain the reason why.
> 
> Because of the Griko population, there are small genetic differentiations between the Salentini.
> 
> AncestryDNA realized that I'm not a Griko, and it put me with the other Pugliesi.
> 
> 
> ...


I know there are a lot of households all over Italy with your real surname, it would be difficult for you to track your line, but why it was used in that way, well ....................its like , as an example the surname , Tedesco ( which means German ), it was given out to people who had no surname at the time, and because they looked German, .............and not because they came from germany

there is currently 13416 households in italy with your real surname .......so it would be difficult for you to track your line
number 1 is apulia region with 3432

----------


## Salento

AncestryDNA doesn’t have much confidence in my Greece & Balkans allocation.

*Italy*: Your ethnicity estimate is *79%*, but it can range from *73—100%*


_
Greece & the Balkans:_ Your ethnicity estimate is *8%*, but it can range from *0—8%*

----------


## torzio

BEL = from Walloon, initally from Gorizia near trieste italy

USA ( NC ) = a hessian in origin , original surname was radich




the yellow block i in sample ERS256892 has snp Z19945 as confirmed, this clearly makes everybody under this sample a possibility of also having Z19945

----------


## torzio

> AncestryDNA doesn’t have much confidence in my Greece & Balkans allocation.
> 
> *Italy*: Your ethnicity estimate is *79%*, but it can range from *73—100%*
> 
> 
> _
> Greece & the Balkans:_ Your ethnicity estimate is *8%*, but it can range from *0—8%*



thanks

mine below.........average at best ..................I have no relatives west of Lomello in Lombardy ............




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomello

that relative arrived there between the 2 great wars

----------


## Salento

> BEL = from Walloon, initally from Gorizia near trieste italy
> USA ( NC ) = a hessian in origin , original surname was radich
> 
> 
> the yellow block i in sample ERS256892 has snp Z19945 as confirmed, this clearly makes everybody under this sample a possibility of also having Z19945


Strange, what about Y17493, also under the “yellow block”.

..., but BMW, You and I are negative for Y17493.

If everybody under the yellow block are at least Z19945, these branches are no longer linear and they make no sense.

Unless there are others besides sample ERS256892 that are negative for Z19945

----------


## Salento

yellow block sample ERS256892 (CTS8489), but positive for Z19945 is shown as Italy, Cagliari, Sardegna (Sardinia)

There’s also a new CTS8489.

----------


## torzio

> yellow block sample ERS256892 (CTS8489), but positive for Z19945 is shown as Italy, Cagliari, Sardegna (Sardinia).


It seems that z19945 is a major snp and many branches should split off from there

----------


## Salento

> It seems that z19945 is a major snp and many branches should split off from there


... then T-Z19945 is probably older than they thought.

----------


## torzio

> ... then T-Z19945 is probably older than they thought.


then you should be where I placed me ...below

----------


## BMW

I have sent my Big Y-700 results to YFull.
Very interested to see where they place my Z19943.

----------


## BMW

> My theory is that if you have Z19945 , ..............it was basically in the modern hungarian area in the late bronze-age



"the Gallo-Roman chronicler Gregory of Tours 

states that the Franks originally lived in Pannonia, but later settled on the banks of the Rhine. Additional early sources likewise relate that the Franks migrated in prehistoric times from the mouth of the Danube on the Black Sea, to the Rhine, where they adopted their name (circa. 11 BC) in honour of a hereditary chieftain called Franko – replacing the earlier tribal name Sicambri (or _Sugambri_) – said to be an offshoot of the Cimmerians or Scythians. This legend of a Scythian or Cimmerian background is thus consistent with the origin legends of nearly all other European nations as well."




*https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/f/Franks.htm*

----------


## torzio

> "the Gallo-Roman chronicler Gregory of Tours 
> 
> states that the Franks originally lived in Pannonia, but later settled on the banks of the Rhine. Additional early sources likewise relate that the Franks migrated in prehistoric times from the mouth of the Danube on the Black Sea, to the Rhine, where they adopted their name (circa. 11 BC) in honour of a hereditary chieftain called Franko – replacing the earlier tribal name Sicambri (or _Sugambri_) – said to be an offshoot of the Cimmerians or Scythians. This legend of a Scythian or Cimmerian background is thus consistent with the origin legends of nearly all other European nations as well."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/f/Franks.htm*


Interesting....I have read something similar

it associated the Salians and Swabians for my area in NE Italy ..........places like Castelfranco ( frankish castle ) was Salian people and Merlengo was Swabian people named originally as marling

I will need to revisit these sites

----------


## BMW

* "St. Gregory of Tours, who was the leading historian wrote that the Frankish leader Clovis on the occasion of his baptism into the Catholic faith in 496 was referred to as Sicambrian by the officiating Bishop of Rheims.*
*During a battle against the Alamans, he vowed to become a Christian if he was victorious. He won and was baptized by the Bishop of Rheims in 496.
At his baptism, Saint Remy said

“Sicambrian revere what thou hast burned and burn what thou hast revered.” "
*

----------


## BMW

*"In the year 358 AD the servile Sarmatian tribe the Limigantes came in revolt against the leading tribe, the Argaragantes in an internal Sarmatian war and they expelled their masters. These warrior nobility received a warm welcome in the Roman Empire and got settlements for them and their families to the number of 30,000 in different provinces in the heartland of the Empire in Thracia, Macedonia and Northern Italy. Sarmatians and Alans had many small military colonies in the Po Valley. The last mentioned Alanian regiment in the Western Roman Empire was that at Ravenna in 487, nine years after the dethroning of the last Western Roman Emperor Julius Nepos in 480. They took part in the election of the Ostrogoth Odoacer to emperor and served in his army. 
During the last raid in Hungaria by the Hun Babaï in 470 a group of Sarmatians crossed the Donau (Danube) and settled in Pannonia Secunda in Singidinum (Belgrade). Babaï was then slain by the East Roman emperor Leo I. In 568 Sarmatians still lived there and some followed the Longobards into Italy and settled in the Po Valley."

"The Germanic Cugerni or Sicambri, were also called Franks. They lived since the time of Caesar east of the Batavi. They were settled in the first century in the Roman province Germania inferior, later Germania secunda, in Colonia Ulpia Traiana near modern Xanten upstream of Nijmegen, east of Venlo."

"Childerik

*, ± 440-480, the first known Frankish king, was in the same time by the Romans assigned to a large area in Tournai. His tomb was discovered in *1652* in the church of Saint Brice and therein were except Germanic also clear *Sarmatian marks*."


https://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm#se

----------


## torzio

> I have sent my Big Y-700 results to YFull.
> Very interested to see where they place my Z19943.


my snp beginning with Z

Z13062+, Z19855+, Z19879+, Z19880+, Z19883+, Z19885+, Z19889+, Z19893+, Z19894+, Z19895+, Z19896+, Z19897+, Z19900+, Z19901+, Z19902+, Z19903+, Z19904+, Z19907+, Z19908+, Z19909+, Z19910+, Z19911+, Z19913+, Z19917+, Z19918+, Z19924+, Z19926+, Z19928+, Z19929+, Z19931+, Z19932+, Z19933+, Z19935+, Z19940+, Z19941+, Z19943+, Z19944+, Z19945+, Z19946+, Z19951+, Z19953+, Z2065+, Z7767+, ZS5664+


you should also have the main snp of Z19945 .....like me ..............I have Z19943

----------


## BMW

my snp's beginning with Z:

Z13062+, Z19855+, Z19857+, Z19879+, Z19880+, Z19883+, Z19885+, Z19889+, Z19890+, Z19893+, Z19894+, Z19895+, Z19896+, Z19897+, Z19900+, Z19901+, Z19902+, Z19903+, Z19904+, Z19907+, Z19908+, Z19909+, Z19910+, Z19911+, Z19912+, Z19913+, Z19917+, Z19918+, Z19924+, Z19926+, Z19928+, Z19929+, Z19931+, Z19932+, Z19933+, Z19935+, Z19940+, Z19941+, Z19942+, Z19943+, Z19946+, Z19951+, Z19953+, Z19963-, Z20015-, Z2065+, Z27269+, Z31288+, Z709-, Z7767+, ZS5664+

----------


## BMW

> my snp beginning with Z
> 
> Z13062+, Z19855+, Z19879+, Z19880+, Z19883+, Z19885+, Z19889+, Z19893+, Z19894+, Z19895+, Z19896+, Z19897+, Z19900+, Z19901+, Z19902+, Z19903+, Z19904+, Z19907+, Z19908+, Z19909+, Z19910+, Z19911+, Z19913+, Z19917+, Z19918+, Z19924+, Z19926+, Z19928+, Z19929+, Z19931+, Z19932+, Z19933+, Z19935+, Z19940+, Z19941+, Z19943+, Z19944+, Z19945+, Z19946+, Z19951+, Z19953+, Z2065+, Z7767+, ZS5664+
> 
> 
> you should also have the main snp of Z19945 .....like me ..............I have Z19943


Our (+) differences seem to be:

BMW: Z19857, Z19890, Z19912, Z19942, Z27269, Z31288

torzio: Z19944, Z19945

----------


## BMW

....Z19944 and Z19945 show as "presumed positive" for me. (As does CTS8862 and CTS9984)

It would be nice if it were more definitive.....

----------


## torzio

> ....Z19944 and Z19945 show as "presumed positive" for me. (As does CTS8862 and CTS9984)
> 
> It would be nice if it were more definitive.....


is a person named curtiss matching yourself

if so,

his family is from Hesse with original surname Fuser

----------


## BMW

torzio,

Gareth just moved me to Gamma-1.1-D T-Z19945 (including T-CTS1848) (confirmed/predicted).

I'm not sure where to look for the matches you posted (curtiss.... family from Hesse with original surname Fuser).

----------


## BMW

torzio,

The status on my YFull is "analysis in progress".
The "new" entry under CTS8489* is me.

----------


## torzio

> torzio,
> 
> Gareth just moved me to Gamma-1.1-D T-Z19945 (including T-CTS1848) (confirmed/predicted).
> 
> I'm not sure where to look for the matches you posted (curtiss.... family from Hesse with original surname Fuser).


my bad it was FRUSH

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

curtiss is there

----------


## torzio

> torzio,
> 
> The status on my YFull is "analysis in progress".
> The "new" entry under CTS8489* is me.


where is this .....in T project?

Ok..I see in block match an irish icon now

----------


## BMW

> my bad it was FRUSH
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> 
> curtiss is there


Does not appear to be a match of mine.

----------


## BMW

> where is this .....in T project?


No, on the YFull tree.

----------


## torzio

> No, on the YFull tree.


 YF66044 i presume this is you

----------


## BMW

> YF66044 i presume this is you


Yes, it is.

----------


## BMW

> is a person named curtiss matching yourself
> 
> if so,
> 
> his family is from Hesse with original surname Fuser


torzio,

You are correct...I do now see a Curtiss. 
Daniel CURTISS b.1652

----------


## torzio

> torzio,
> 
> Gareth just moved me to Gamma-1.1-D T-Z19945 (including T-CTS1848) (confirmed/predicted).
> 
> I'm not sure where to look for the matches you posted (curtiss.... family from Hesse with original surname Fuser).


myself and Salento are both positive Z19945 and both negative for CTS1848

Are you positive for both ?

----------


## BMW

> myself and Salento are both positive Z19945 and both negative for CTS1848
> 
> Are you positive for both ?


FTDNA has me as "Presumed Negative" for CTS1848.

----------


## BMW

Now I have been moved back to haplogroup CTS8489.

Also moved back to Negative (red) for CTS8862 and "presumed negative" for Z19945 and Z19944.

?

----------


## torzio

> Now I have been moved back to haplogroup CTS8489.
> 
> Also moved back to Negative (red) for CTS8862 and "presumed negative" for Z19945 and Z19944.
> 
> ?


maybe my query to gareth made him revisit our markers/samples.............i think, he is the only one that does it in the ftdna T project

----------


## BMW

> maybe my query to gareth made him revisit our markers/samples.............i think, he is the only one that does it in the ftdna T project


Gareth just responded on the T project:

"Brian, Project Admins can only change the project groupings. The Haplotree and haplogroup results are reviewed and amended by FTDNA staff. Several changes have been made to the T tree in the last 24 hours."

----------


## Salento

CTS8489 is now on Top of CTS8862, they’re not longer equal.

CTS8489
CTS8862
PAGES00113Y17493Z19945
CTS1848

----------


## BMW

"In the tree the Alias for CTS8862 is CTS8489 (as of now)
If your positives and negatives are all real, eventually CTS8489 will become the Father of CTS8862, because I’m positive for both of them plus Z19945." 
- Salento, 30-04-19, 20:11, #6

You were proved right, Salento.

----------


## Salento

> "In the tree the Alias for CTS8862 is CTS8489 (as of now)
> If your positives and negatives are all real, eventually CTS8489 will become the Father of CTS8862, because I’m positive for both of them plus Z19945." 
> - Salento, 30-04-19, 20:11, #6
> 
> You were proved right, Salento.


 Thanks BMW, it’s a dynamic hierarchy. The more people that get tested, the more changes we will see.

----------


## torzio

> CTS8489 is now on Top of CTS8862, they’re not longer equal.
> 
> CTS8489
> CTS8862
> PAGES00113Y17493Z19945
> CTS1848


if this is the case.....then Yfull found Z19945 in sample ( sardinian ) id:ERS256892 ......and he sits between your CTS8489 and CTS8862 ( he does have cts8489 but not CTS8862 )

this makes pages00113 and Y17493 further split from us.........Y17493 seems to be more USA via britain

----------


## Salento

@BMW

----------


## BMW

The T project has moved me back to "Gamma-1.1-X T-CTS11984 or T-CTS8862 Unmatched" grouping.

----------


## Salento

> The T project has moved me back to "Gamma-1.1-X T-CTS11984 or T-CTS8862 Unmatched" grouping.


Understandably, they're all puzzled by your results, You partially disrupted what they thought was a simple branch of the tree. Nice :)  :Good Job:

----------


## BMW

:Grin: ..........

----------


## BMW

_
FTDNA's T project has my Patrick Walsh grouped with
Hoff_, _Anthonius b_: ABT _1616_ in Germany d: 1677 in Heddesdorf, Germany….(right bank of the Rhine).

"The west Germanic tribe of the Sicambri descended from the Cimmerians. The Sicambri were located along the right bank of the Rhine and appear about 55 BC."






*https://www.houseofnames.com/Hait-family-crest/German*
"The surname Hait was first found in Bavaria, where the name Heidt was anciently associated with the tribal conflicts of the area. They declared allegiances to many nobles and princes of early history, lending their influence in struggles for power and status within the region. They branched into many houses, and their contributions were sought by many leaders in their search for power."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egem,_East_Flanders

Through the centuries Egem has had multiple names. In the oldest documents it was found to be named Heddeghem (1571). 

Etymologically, Flemish toponyms ending with –_gem_ refer to a Germanic compound of –_haim_, meaning ‘home’ or ‘residence’, and a derivative ending –_inga_. The first part of the name "Egem" is commonly assigned to the Germanic name of _Haid, Hait or Heit_. In its totality, the compound _Haidingahaim_ meant ‘residence of the followers or tribal members of Frank (Franko) Haid’, degenerated into Heddeghem. The locality name belongs to the group of ingahemnames who are older than regular hemnames. Egem was founded in the early centuries of the Merovingian era (6th-7th century), and thus has an older origin than Bambrugge. Egem was probably a secluded homestead which was not too great, and was later absorbed by the rapidly faster developing Bambrugge.

(notice name similarity of Anthonius Hoff's Heddesdorf, Germany and the _Haid / Hait / Heit_ homestead of Heddeghem in East_Flanders)







Wales:


"Nest also had children by the sheriff Hait

of Pembroke, a Fleming (William, who became lord of St. Clears)"



http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~walsh/nesta.html
*3rd LINE OF NESTA: 1 +Hait, Sheriff of Pembroke b: c.1070 2 William de Hay (FitzHait) b: c.1105 f: held St. Clare around the year 1130, campaigned with William and Maurice FitzGerald in Carmarthen in 1137. A footnote in the 13th century Welsh text "Brut y Tywysogyon" (The Chronicle of the Princes), compiled at the Welsh monastery of Strata Florida around 1300 alludes that William Hay 'Wallensis', son of Nesta and de Hay/Hait, was perhaps the father, or grandfather, of Philip and David (who went to Ireland).


Any thoughts, anyone?

----------


## Salento

If CTS8489 is above CTS8862, and you are Negative for CTS8862, but Anthonius is positive for it, I wouldn't theorize any close relation to him, until it is discovered when the mutation first occurred. 

(It could have past 10 years, or 100 years, or 500 years, ...)

----------


## BMW

> If CTS8489 is above CTS8862, and you are Negative for CTS8862, but Anthonius is positive for it, I wouldn't theorize any close relation to him, until it is discovered when the mutation first occurred. 
> 
> (It could have past 10 years, or 100 years, or 500 years, ...)


Has the age of CTS8862 in this new configuration been determined? 

Showing the similarity between Hoff's Heddesdorf and Heddeghem / _Haidingahaim was an afterthought. The other info I showed were items I have been accruing over time and was not prompted by any findings concerning Anthonius Hoff which could just be an interesting coincidence._ 

My first thought was how could the name Hoff have any possible connection to Hedau, Hedaux, Hede, Hedde, Hedou, Hedin, Hedon, Hedman, _Haid, Hait or Heit but I had to stop and remind myself that I am a Walsh....LOL._

I have been unable to view my FTDNA Big Y Block Tree ever since the update. Problem might be on my end but either way it has thrown a monkey wrench into the works. I'm also still patiently waiting for the YFull Tree to finish their analysis.

----------


## torzio

> If CTS8489 is above CTS8862, and you are Negative for CTS8862, but Anthonius is positive for it, I wouldn't theorize any close relation to him, until it is discovered when the mutation first occurred. 
> 
> (It could have past 10 years, or 100 years, or 500 years, ...)


I come back to my post number 77

----------


## Salento

> I come back to my post number 77


I saw #77 earlier, but it’s a Paradox :) 

if we follow that reasoning, Z19945 is above CTS8862, and we cannot be positive for CTS8862 too, but we are.

CTS8862 and CTS8489 are still equivalent on Ytree, and Z19945 is still at the same position as before,

maybe they will update the entire branch, and also move the Sardinian below with us.


@BMW I don’t see any dates from that end yet.

----------


## torzio

> Has the age of CTS8862 in this new configuration been determined? 
> 
> Showing the similarity between Hoff's Heddesdorf and Heddeghem / _Haidingahaim was an afterthought. The other info I showed were items I have been accruing over time and was not prompted by any findings concerning Anthonius Hoff which could just be an interesting coincidence._ 
> 
> My first thought was how could the name Hoff have any possible connection to Hedau, Hedaux, Hede, Hedde, Hedou, Hedin, Hedon, Hedman, _Haid, Hait or Heit but I had to stop and remind myself that I am a Walsh....LOL._
> 
> I have been unable to view my FTDNA Big Y Block Tree ever since the update. Problem might be on my end but either way it has thrown a monkey wrench into the works. I'm also still patiently waiting for the YFull Tree to finish their analysis.


antonius Hoff is one step from me..........I noted this in other T thread

----------


## torzio

> I saw #77 earlier, but it’s a Paradox :) 
> 
> if we follow that reasoning, Z19945 is above CTS8862, and we cannot be positive for CTS8862 too, but we are.
> 
> CTS8862 and CTS8489 are still equivalent on Ytree, and Z19945 is still at the same position as before,
> 
> maybe they will update the entire branch, and also move the Sardinian below with us.
> 
> 
> @BMW I don’t see any dates from that end yet.


yfull has stopped its experiment and reverted back to what it was.....I will check on this Sardinian later

----------


## BMW

> antonius Hoff is one step from me..........I noted this in other T thread


A number of sites state A. Hoff's origin was Heddesdorf....located in the administrative district Neuwied.
*Großmaischeid* is a municipality in the district of Neuwied.

"First settlements in Großmaischeid date back to the late Bronze Age (1550 - 1200 BC). The Roman border fortification 'Limes' was erected around 80AD in the vicinity of Großmaischeid. The town was first mentioned in an official document issued by pope Eugene III which dates back to 20 January 1148. Its name is most probably derived from 'Metsched's (*Maischeid)* place', referring to a medieval local nobleman."



Possible explanation of the origin of the name Metsched / *Maischeid :*

http://haydefamily.com/meaning-of-the-name/
A book called Teutonic Name-Systems applied to the Family Names of France, England and Germany [4] is less conclusive. It refers to Old German names ending in Heid or Hait (Modern German equivalent Heit, and English equivalent Hood) as being found in many ancient names, particularly among the West Franks in the 8th and 9th centuries, i.e. names such as Adalheid, meaning noble-hood. However when the name was used as a prefix then it becomes more difficult to interpret. The book summarised the linkages of the names as follows:
_Simple Forms
Old German (8th century): Haito, Haido, Haida, Eid.
English: Height, Hayday, Ade, Adie.
Modern German: Haid, Heydt.
French: Aide.
_

----------


## BMW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Rhine
In the 4th century BCE, the area had come under the influence of Mediterranean civilizations

----------


## torzio

> I saw #77 earlier, but it’s a Paradox :) 
> 
> if we follow that reasoning, Z19945 is above CTS8862, and we cannot be positive for CTS8862 too, but we are.
> 
> CTS8862 and CTS8489 are still equivalent on Ytree, and Z19945 is still at the same position as before,
> 
> maybe they will update the entire branch, and also move the Sardinian below with us.
> 
> 
> @BMW I don’t see any dates from that end yet.


I do not understand why we cannot be positive for both, z19945 just moves inbetween

----------


## Salento

> I do not understand why we cannot be positive for both, z19945 just moves inbetween


To be positive for both, and if you move Z19945 on top of CTS8862, than CTS8862 would become our Final.

----------


## torzio

> To be positive for both, and if you move Z19945 on top of CTS8862, than CTS8862 would become our Final.


Not the case as I think this tree
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapl...-M184_tree.png

is the correct tree......with z19945 splitting off

----------


## Salento

> Not the case as I think this tree
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapl...-M184_tree.png
> 
> is the correct tree......with z19945 splitting off



Where's CTS8862 in that tree? (before we thought that equated to CTS8489).

You said that it should be below Z19945.

It shows that Z19945 Split in 2 Branches, the CTS1848 (we’re Negative, so CTS8862 can’t be under it), and another, is it that one?

if that’s the case, all CTS1848 cannot be positive for CTS8862.

the Point is, that for any combination to work, must have Z19945 and CTS8862 because we are positive for both.

for now, the FTDNA tree makes more sense than the Yfull tree, maybe they’ll move the Sardinia below to Z19945.

Also the FTDNA tree settles @BMW’s issue.

----------


## Salento

FTDNA rearranged our branch a few days ago.

Maybe Yfull and others will do same.

----------


## torzio

> FTDNA rearranged our branch a few days ago.
> 
> Maybe Yfull and others will do same.


In the T project ?

----------


## Salento

> In the T project ?


no, FTDNA url main site, and I go to the Y DNA Haplotree, 
I get there by clicking the “Haplotree & SNPs” tab located under the Y-DNA Section in the Main Page.

(I did a few Y tests with FTDNA, so I Have access to it)

this below is a part of our updated branch by FTDNA:

----------


## torzio

> no, FTDNA url main site, and I go to the Y DNA Haplotree, 
> I get there by clicking the “Haplotree & SNPs” tab located under the Y-DNA Section in the Main Page.
> 
> (I did a few Y tests with FTDNA, so I Have access to it)
> 
> this below is a part of our updated branch by FTDNA:


I do not get what you get
even though I have done the 500 and 700 tests , it's still shows I need to test for cts1848....even though both 500 and 700 in individual snp tests for me says negative for cts1848.....there might be a glitch in the tree for me somewhere

even yfull and sequence says I am negative for cts1848

----------


## BMW

The Phylogenetic T-M184 tree would appear to need reworking, as well.
A shame.....would be akin to redoing the Mona Lisa, imho.

I still think my branch would need to go to Wallonia - Flanders, though.

----------


## torzio

> The Phylogenetic T-M184 tree would appear to need reworking, as well.
> A shame.....would be akin to redoing the Mona Lisa, imho.
> 
> I still think my branch would need to go to Wallonia - Flanders, though.


speak to mr Bernot via email....he is Walloon, he runs 3 accounts

----------


## Salento

> I do not get what you get
> even though I have done the 500 and 700 tests , it's still shows I need to test for cts1848....even though both 500 and 700 in individual snp tests for me says negative for cts1848.....there might be a glitch in the tree for me somewhere
> even yfull and sequence says I am negative for cts1848


FTDNA total y T tree:
.. I tested a few SNPs Z19945 included at Yseq, (you suggested that to me as an option :)

----------


## BMW

Salento,

What catches my attention when I compare our two FTDNA haplotrees :

* I am positive and you are "presumed positive" for CTS10803

* We are both "presumed positive" for Z19939

* I am "presumed negative" and you show "downstream" for Z19945

* I show "downstream" for Z19936 when clicking on "CTS8489 more".....and you?

----------


## BMW

> speak to mr Bernot via email....he is Walloon, he runs 3 accounts


Thanks, torzio.

----------


## Salento

> Salento,
> 
> What catches my attention when I compare our two FTDNA haplotrees :
> 
> * I am positive and you are "presumed positive" for CTS10803
> 
> * We are both "presumed positive" for Z19939
> 
> * I am "presumed negative" and you show "downstream" for Z19945
> ...


* (New Discoveries) Some of my SNPs are only Presumed Positive because they weren't part of the tree when I bought the various tests (recent discoveries added)

* I tested for Z19945 (Positive) with YSEQ, (Different Company)

I tested for CTS1848 with FTDNA and YSEQ (Both companies found me negative for it).

* I’m presumed Positive for Z19936 and all the other SNPs part of CTS8489.

----------


## BMW

I've never quite known what to do with a "downstream".

----------


## torzio

> no, FTDNA url main site, and I go to the Y DNA Haplotree, 
> I get there by clicking the “Haplotree & SNPs” tab located under the Y-DNA Section in the Main Page.
> 
> (I did a few Y tests with FTDNA, so I Have access to it)
> 
> this below is a part of our updated branch by FTDNA:


I get what you have now, i still get a cts1848 as a need to be tested, yet same 500 and 700 snp tests show me as negarive for cts1848...i need to get gareth to get this fixed

----------


## Salento

> I've never quite known what to do with a "downstream".



Before I could click on it and buy those I wanted, but not anymore, 
now they want a new sample of saliva, and to buy one of the expensive tests (again).

That's why I tested last downstream with Yseq.

----------


## torzio

> Thanks, torzio.


Iirc...his stated, his family where cannon makers for the spanish netherlands armies and his family was originally from gorizia italy

----------


## BMW

Neither FTDNA nor Yseq provide Z19936 to be tested.

----------


## BMW

> Iirc...his stated, his family where cannon makers for the spanish netherlands armies and his family was originally from gorizia italy


Thanks for the info, torzio.

----------


## BMW

http://www.exulanten.com/franks.html

By legend, the Franks claimed that their people were descended from the ancient Sicambri and Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called 'Liber Historiae Francorum' states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria", and then two generations later arrived at the Rhine in the late fourth century. An even earlier variation of this story states that an early king named Francio was the namesake of the Franks.

----------


## torzio

> http://www.exulanten.com/franks.html
> By legend, the Franks claimed that their people were descended from the ancient Sicambri and Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called 'Liber Historiae Francorum' states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria", and then two generations later arrived at the Rhine in the late fourth century. An even earlier variation of this story states that an early king named Francio was the namesake of the Franks.


Tanais is Tana under the venetians and is now called Azov

----------


## BMW



----------


## BMW

> Tanais is Tana under the venetians and is now called Azov



https://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Sarmats.html

Left: _Sarmatian Cataphract from Tanais: Marble block with the image of a horseman_ (2nd century A.D.)
Marble 40х35 cm, from the ancient city of Tanais on the Don River. The horseman is garbed as a Sarmatian or Alan warrior.

----------


## torzio

> 


I always thought the Alans were involved, but Z19945 is pure european from origin of 1460bc

----------


## BMW

> I always thought the Alans were involved, but Z19945 is pure european from origin of 1460bc


https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...s-dna-is-pure/

.....not that I am necessarily on board with everything that has Harvard's brand on it.

----------


## Salento

Question :) 

If somebody buys a FTDNA STRs upgrade: Y-111 or Y-700, do they also test for new SNPs (markers) ???

and if they do, do they charge extra for + or - results, or is it all included ???


(Previously bought: y-67, ...SNPs pacK, and single SNPs testing)

----------


## torzio

> Question :) 
> If somebody buys a FTDNA STRs upgrade: Y-111 or Y-700, do they also test for new SNPs (markers) ???
> and if they do, do they charge extra for + or - results, or is it all included ???


The issue is that they test a lot but do not show you the tested negative snp unless you specifically check them one at a time.

It was different in the past

----------


## BMW

> Question :) 
> 
> If somebody buys a FTDNA STRs upgrade: Y-111 or Y-700, do they also test for new SNPs (markers) ???
> 
> and if they do, do they charge extra for + or - results, or is it all included ???


By "new SNPs" are you referring to private variants?

----------


## Salento

> The issue is that they test a lot but do not show you the tested negative snp unless you specifically check them one at a time.
> 
> It was different in the past


Do they show the positive SNPs?

----------


## Salento

> By "new SNPs" are you referring to private variants?


No, to the new SNPs discovered since I bought the first test (presumed + or -), and the Blue Downstream not available for testing in the “Y DNA Haplotree” Page.

----------


## BMW

https://dna-explained.com/2019/01/30...-to-big-y-700/

The Big Y test itself provides a scan of the majority of the Y chromosome, providing results to testers including:


All SNPs found, both ancestral (original value) and derived (mutated state)New mutations never discovered before known as Private Variants. It’s exciting to be a part of scientific discovery AND these are useful genealogically as well. I wrote about using the Estes Big Y results here.Reports for named SNPs and private variants, bothMatching for SNPsSNP tree placementThe new Block TreeFirst 500, now 700 STR values included for free. You can read about how these markers work, here.Matching to other testers for both SNPs and STRs above 111 (STRs below 111 are handled separately).

----------


## Salento

What about the Y-111?

----------


## Salento

I’m asking strictly about FTDNA. 
I'm trying to find out what they really offer.

(I already tested for my downstreams at Yseq, so I know the results)

----------


## BMW

> Question :) 
> 
> If somebody buys a FTDNA STRs upgrade: Y-111 or Y-700, do they also test for new SNPs (markers) ???
> 
> and if they do, do they charge extra for + or - results, or is it all included ???
> 
> 
> (Previously bought: y-67, ...SNPs pacK, and single SNPs testing)


I am pretty sure my original haplotree I got when I did the Y-111 now shows the +'s and -'s from my Big Y-700 test.
When I am able to access my FTDNA account I will verify that....I'm in a mountainous area.

----------


## Duarte

> I’m asking strictly about FTDNA. 
> 
> (I already tested for my downstreams at Yseq, so I know the results)


@Salento:




https://learn.familytreedna.com/ftdna/test-y-dna-snps/

----------


## Salento

Deleted : Double post

also keyboard still autocorrect @Duarte with @Carlos  :Petrified:

----------


## Salento

@Duarte not all single SNPs are available for testing in my page.

(I’m positive for CTS8862 and I tested positive for Z19945 at yseq, (neg. for CTS1848)

----------


## BMW

> What about the Y-111?


My understanding is that you get Y-111 tested when you do the Big Y...if that is your question.

----------


## Salento

> My understanding is that you get Y-111 tested when you do the Big Y...if that is your question.


I have y-67, and I bought the T-M184 SNP PACK, ... before.

I’m thinking to get Y-111, not the Big Y 700.

----------


## torzio

> Do they show the positive SNPs?


They show only your positives in the haplotree area......bottom of the tree is your snp, including private ones

----------


## torzio

> My understanding is that you get Y-111 tested when you do the Big Y...if that is your question.


Y-111 is not that good as many testers jump from y67 to the big- y 's

you have minimal people on y111......I regret doing mine, but I did get a good deal

----------


## Salento

Thank you for Answering my Questions, Torzio, BMW, Duarte

----------


## BMW

> I am pretty sure my original haplotree I got when I did the Y-111 now shows the +'s and -'s from my Big Y-700 test.
> When I am able to access my FTDNA account I will verify that....I'm in a mountainous area.


Yes, the + or - results are all included.
Yes, my updated haplotree shows all my +'s and -'s.

----------


## Duarte

> Thank you for Answering my Questions, Torzio, BMW, Duarte


You’re welcome:)

First I took the Y-111 test. The result was disappointing. My predicted haplogroup was R-M269. After the test, they showing me a series of SNPs that could be tested downstream. What was shown to me was a lottery! I did not want this. I preferred to upload to Big Y and find out my exact haplogroup: R1b-FGC35133.

----------


## BMW

"Yes, my updated haplotree shows all my +'s and -'s.".....the large list is at the bottom of the tree.

----------


## torzio

[QUOTE=torzio;589240]I always thought the Alans were involved, but Z19945 is pure european from origin of 1460bc
_Liburni_gens_Asiatica_Anatomy_of_Classical_Stereo typej


https://www.academia.edu/33029236/_L...cal_Stereotype

----------


## BMW

Thanks for sharing the link, torzio.

----------


## torzio

[QUOTE=torzio;589286]


> I always thought the Alans were involved, but Z19945 is pure european from origin of 1460bc
> _Liburni_gens_Asiatica_Anatomy_of_Classical_Stereo typej
> 
> 
> https://www.academia.edu/33029236/_L...cal_Stereotype


Anatolia ancient name was Asia Minor "asiatics" , there is a link above of liburnians with lycians 

a lot of T found in Lycian area as well as the island of Chios

----------


## BMW

[QUOTE=torzio;589324]


> Anatolia ancient name was Asia Minor "asiatics" , there is a link above of liburnians with lycians 
> 
> a lot of T found in Lycian area as well as the island of Chios


If Z19945 is to be from Anatolia....where would that leave CTS8489?

----------


## BMW

[QUOTE=torzio;589324]


> Anatolia ancient name was Asia Minor "asiatics" , there is a link above of liburnians with lycians 
> 
> a lot of T found in Lycian area as well as the island of Chios


My Y-DNA has me tracking the name "Hait" which has possible Armenian origins:

Hyde [Heydt]

>> The surname Heydt /Hait was first found in Bavaria where the name Heidt was anciently associated with the tribal conflicts of the area. They declared allegiances to many nobles and princes of early history, lending their influence in struggles for power and status within the region. They branched into many houses, and their contributions were sought by many leaders in their search for power. <<

>>mostly means 'rural dweller', "that of the heathland", whereby heath is nothing more than the wide, open land in contrast to the closed field<<



The other meaning Heide=paganus=heathen is a late medieval aberration.

*****Alemanni Tribe (520 AD)





HAIDAR
Gender Masculine 
Usage Arabic 
Scripts حيدر(Arabic) 
*Meaning & History
*Means "lion" in Arabic. 
*Related Names
*VariantsHaider, Hayder, Hyder 
Other Languages & CulturesHeydar(Persian) Haydar(Turkish)



"In any case, Anglo-Saxon use of _heathen_ followed that of their Continental cousins, the Goths. In the fourth century, the Goths’ bishop, Ulfilas (‘Wolfling’) had made his own Gothic translation, in which the Syrophenician woman in Mark 7:26 is called _haithno_. That looks like _heathen_, but the ingenious Norwegian philologist, Sophus Bugge (1833-1907), had a notion that Ulfilas borrowed the word _haithno_ from the Armenian version of the Gospels. And the Armenians had simply borrowed their own word from the Greek _ethnos_."



*“Heathen” comes by way of* *Bishop Ulfilas* (aka Wulfila). In the late 300s he translated the New Testament from Greek into Gothic for the Visigoths. Many of his words spread to other Germanic languages, like English.
His heathen was *haithno*. There are two ideas about how he came up with that word:
1. He gothicized the Greek _ethnos_, possibly by way of the Armenian word _hethanos_.
2. He modeled it on the Latin word _paganus_ (pagan). Pagan meant someone who lived in the countryside, but as the cities Christianized, it came to mean a non-Christian. Likewise, heathen was someone who lived on the heath, who was now seen as non-Christian.

----------


## torzio

[QUOTE=BMW;589333]


> If Z19945 is to be from Anatolia....where would that leave CTS8489?


There is no Z19945 in Anatolia.....it is either on the French-Swiss border or the Czech-German-Austrian border.....the snp for T1a2 in Anatolia is only found to be Cts933........ DNA-explained owner, Estes has a line also T from this Lycian lands......I will try to find her article from a few years ago

find this

*Hugh Bowling (1591-1651) – DNA Rare as Hen’s Teeth – 52 Ancestors #14*in her site for more details

----------


## BMW

[QUOTE=torzio;589343]


> There is no Z19945 in Anatolia.....it is either on the French-Swiss border or the Czech-German-Austrian border.....the snp for T1a2 in Anatolia is only found to be Cts933........ DNA-explained owner, Estes has a line also T from this Lycian lands......I will try to find her article from a few years ago
> 
> find this
> 
> *Hugh Bowling (1591-1651) – DNA Rare as Hen’s Teeth – 52 Ancestors #14*
> 
> 
> in her site for more details


Thanks, torzio.

https://dna-explained.com/2014/04/04...-ancestors-14/

----------


## BMW

"I am another of the Northern T group, I am T-L446 ( noted as Eastern Alpine ).
I need to know where you have found information which states the origins of T is in the Taurus mountains as I have never came across this in all the paper I have read.
I have heard of it being in the Zargos mountains of Northern Iran close to the Caspian sea on the east side. It is a West- Asian marker."


torzio,

I had also thought it was considered to be Iranian....thus not European.
The theory for Anatolia now seems compelling.

----------


## torzio

> "I am another of the Northern T group, I am T-L446 ( noted as Eastern Alpine ).
> I need to know where you have found information which states the origins of T is in the Taurus mountains as I have never came across this in all the paper I have read.
> I have heard of it being in the Zargos mountains of Northern Iran close to the Caspian sea on the east side. It is a West- Asian marker."
> torzio,
> I had also thought it was considered to be Iranian....thus not European.
> The theory for Anatolia now seems compelling.


I said the snp z19945 is pure european...for origins of T, then all say north of the zargos mountain range...but others say around the caspian sea, where haplogroup LT split apart into L and T

Northern for L131 or L446 is what gareth use to say as part of the armenian ftdna project, there is even a map for T there

----------


## BMW

> I said the snp z19945 is pure european...for origins of T, then all say north of the zargos mountain range...but others say around the caspian sea, where haplogroup LT split apart into L and T
> 
> Northern for L131 or L446 is what gareth use to say as part of the armenian ftdna project, there is even a map for T there


Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. I appreciate it.

----------


## torzio

> Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. I appreciate it.


Read
https://genlinginterface.com/updates...e-for-lt-l298/

I do not believe in most of it but its food for thought

----------


## BMW

"There is no Z19945 in Anatolia.....it is either on the French-Swiss border or the Czech-German-Austrian border....." - torzio

torzio,

While pursuing the possibility that I connect back to a Flemish knight named Hait (born mid to late 11th century) I came across a monk named Haito.
His location works with what you wrote about Z19945.

*Haito……* Haito, Bishop of Basel and Abbot of Reichenau
was born in 763, of a noble family of Swabia.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Swabia

*"Swabia*, German *Schwaben*, historic region of southwestern Germany, including what is now the southern portion of Baden-Württemberg _Land_ (state) and the southwestern part of Bavaria _Land_ in Germany, as well as eastern Switzerland and Alsace.

Swabia’s name is derived from that of the Suebi, a Germanic people who, with the Alemanni, occupied the upper Rhine and upper Danube region in the 3rd century ad and spread south to Lake Constance and east to the Lech River. Known first as Alemannia, the region was called Swabia from the 11th century. The Franks under Clovis mastered the Alemanni about ad 500; later in the 6th century, the Franks established a duchy in Alemannia to control the region, which gained autonomy under the later Merovingians but lost it under the Carolingians. The Lex Alemannorum, a code based on Alemannic customary law, first emerged in the 7th century. By the 7th century Irish missionaries began to introduce Christianity. Centres of Christian activity included the abbeys of St. Gall and of Reichenau and the bishoprics of Basel, Constance, and Augsburg; most Swabian sees came into the archepiscopal province of Mainz."



Possible tie to Haito:


https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Hedde#ixzz62wBktl5J





"Recorded as Hedau, Hedaux, Hede, Hedde, Hedou, Hedin, Hedon, Hedman and others, this is a surname of French (and Belgian) origins, of which it has at least two. The first is one from a large group which descend from an early Germanic personal name 'Haido or Hadu' meaning battle."

----------


## BMW

https://listverse.com/2011/10/30/10-lesser-known-germanic-tribes/

----------


## torzio

> "There is no Z19945 in Anatolia.....it is either on the French-Swiss border or the Czech-German-Austrian border....." - torzio
> torzio,
> While pursuing the possibility that I connect back to a Flemish knight named Hait (born mid to late 11th century) I came across a monk named Haito.
> His location works with what you wrote about Z19945.
> *Haito……* Haito, Bishop of Basel and Abbot of Reichenau
> was born in 763, of a noble family of Swabia.
> https://www.britannica.com/place/Swabia
> *"Swabia*, German *Schwaben*, historic region of southwestern Germany, including what is now the southern portion of Baden-Württemberg _Land_ (state) and the southwestern part of Bavaria _Land_ in Germany, as well as eastern Switzerland and Alsace.
> Swabia’s name is derived from that of the Suebi, a Germanic people who, with the Alemanni, occupied the upper Rhine and upper Danube region in the 3rd century ad and spread south to Lake Constance and east to the Lech River. Known first as Alemannia, the region was called Swabia from the 11th century. The Franks under Clovis mastered the Alemanni about ad 500; later in the 6th century, the Franks established a duchy in Alemannia to control the region, which gained autonomy under the later Merovingians but lost it under the Carolingians. The Lex Alemannorum, a code based on Alemannic customary law, first emerged in the 7th century. By the 7th century Irish missionaries began to introduce Christianity. Centres of Christian activity included the abbeys of St. Gall and of Reichenau and the bishoprics of Basel, Constance, and Augsburg; most Swabian sees came into the archepiscopal province of Mainz."
> ...


Is that near the jura caves swabia ?....there is ols sample of T-z19945 found there.....i have posted it before
Romans called lake constance...lacus venetus

I cannot open your link

----------


## BMW

> Is that near the jura caves swabia ?....there is ols sample of T-z19945 found there.....i have posted it before
> Romans called lake constance...lacus venetus
> 
> I cannot open your link


https://listverse.com/2011/10/30/10-lesser-known-germanic-tribes/

----------


## BMW

Haito, Bishop of Basel and Abbot of Reichenau


"Is that near the jura caves swabia ?...."


"Located where the Swiss, French and German borders meet, Basel also has suburbs in France and Germany."

"The Basler *Jura* is a beautiful area of limestone crags located at the Eastern end of the Swiss *Jura* mountains, close to the Rhine, the city of *Basel*, and the borders of France and *Germany*. Some of the crags are in fact in France."

----------


## BMW

Haito, Bishop of Basel and Abbot of Reichenau:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tJxAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Haito, +Bishop+of+Basel+and+Abbot+of+Reichenau&source=bl& ots=3g8T2PPkVw&sig=ACfU3U3x9j_4pIW_4PYeKaeeZK3Xah9 y2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQgaGu9djlAhWQm1kKHYC8De AQ6AEwA3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Haito%2C%20Bishop%20o f%20Basel%20and%20Abbot%20of%20Reichenau&f=false

----------


## BMW

Counts of "Saulgau" is also spelled Saalgau, Sallgau and Saargau......(pertaining to the above link).

----------


## Salento

... ordered the Y111 :)

----------


## BMW

> ... ordered the Y111 :)


Good to hear!

----------


## BMW

> ... ordered the Y111 :)


btw, I can almost hear "The Gael" playing in the background of your new profile picture....great music.

----------


## Salento

> btw, I can almost hear "The Gael" playing in the background of your new profile picture....great music.




I could hear it too.

it was a temp Avatar, I am not Scot or Irish or Native Americans :) 

... though LivingDNA disagree with my statement. LOL

----------


## BMW

I have gotten my results from YFull....but they have not updated the YTree yet.

I am matched with Piero Pretoto, François Bernot, Reddick Knox, ERS256892 (the so called "sardinian from cagliari ") and four other unnamed kits.

----------


## BMW

ERS256892 (the so called "sardinian from cagliari ") is my strongest match on YFull with 64 "All shared SNPs".

Would 64 be considered a high or low number in this instance?

----------


## torzio

> I have gotten my results from YFull....but they have not updated the YTree yet.
> I am matched with Piero Pretoto, François Bernot, Reddick Knox, ERS256892 (the so called "sardinian from cagliari ") and four other unnamed kits.


I have spoken to the knox person, I still have his emails....they are hessian germans and original surname is radich......

----------


## Salento

> I have spoken to the knox person, I still have his emails....they are hessian germans and original surname is radich......


... any relation with Amanda Knox?

----------


## torzio

> ... any relation with Amanda Knox?


I will find out....is she from NC

----------


## Salento

> I will find out....is she from NC


She’s from Seattle WA, but people move around easily in the States.

----------


## torzio

@bmw

Which is you in yfull
Yf 66044 or
Yf 67091

----------


## BMW

> @bmw
> 
> Which is you in yfull
> Yf 66044 or
> Yf 67091


Yf 66044...

----------


## BMW

> I have spoken to the knox person, I still have his emails....they are hessian germans and original surname is radich......


Radich appears to have been originally a Croatian name.

----------


## torzio

> Radich appears to have been originally a Croatian name.


He says it came from Rettich, which means radish in german, it was later changed to radich and then Reddick...it was used as a first name in north carolina
I must have this in earlier posts

----------


## torzio

> Yf 66044...


Ok

I will await the other as it sits with me as a Z19945 sample

----------


## Salento

A W. Redlich is also my match:

Reddick, Redlich, Redich, Radich, ...

... this Family line gets around a lot.

----------


## torzio

> A W. Redlich is also my match:
> 
> Reddick, Redlich, Redich, Radich, ...
> 
> ... this Family line gets around a lot.


Are you 67091 in yfull ?

----------


## Salento

> Are you 67091 in yfull ?


I don’t think so.

First i did the y67, and now I’m waiting for the Y111 results.

----------


## torzio

> I don’t think so.
> 
> First i did the y67, and now I’m waiting for the Y111 results.


Hmm, so no yfull submission by yourself.....then i wonder who it is as it sits with myself

----------


## torzio

> A W. Redlich is also my match:
> Reddick, Redlich, Redich, Radich, ...
> ... this Family line gets around a lot.


https://www.ancestry.com/boards/surn...ck/118/mb.ashx
The person who runs the reddick knox T ydna person

He is good in giving any info you need

----------


## Krum

[QUOTE = BMW; 589335] [QUOTE = torzio; 589324] 

Моят Y-DNA ме проследява името "Hait", което е възможно арменски произход: 

Hyde [Heydt] 

>> Фамилията Heydt / Hait за първи път е намерена в Бавария име Хайд е свързано древно с племенните конфликти в района. Те декларираха привързаности към много благородници и първенци от ранната история, давайки своето влияние в борбата за власт и статут в региона. Те се разклониха в много къщи и приносът им беше търсен от много водачи в търсенето на власт. << 

>> най-вече означава „обитател на селските райони“, „този на земите“, при което Heath е нищо повече от широката, открита земя за разлика от затвореното поле <<





***** Племе Alemanni (520 сл. 





Н. Е. ) HAIDAR 
Пол за мъжки пол 
Използване на арабски 
скриптове حيدر (арабски) 
*Значение и история
* означава „лъв“ на арабски. 
*Свързани
* варианти на *имена* Хайдер , Хайдер , Хайдер 
Други езици и култури Хайдар (персийски) Хайдар (турски) 



„Във всеки случай англосаксонската употреба на _езичниците_ последва тази на техните континентални братовчеди, готите. През четвърти век готският епископ , Улфилас ('Wolfling') е направил свой готически превод, в който сирофеничката в Марк 7:26 се нарича_хаитно_ . Това прилича на _езичници_ , но гениалният норвежки филолог Соф Буг (1833-1907) има представа, че Улфилас е заимствал думата _haithno_ от арменската версия на Евангелията. И арменците просто са взаимствали собствената си дума от гръцкия _етнос_ . " 



*„ Поганът "идва от*  *епископ Улфилас* (известен още като Вулфила). В края на 300-те той превежда Новия завет от гръцки на готически за вестготите. Много от неговите думи се разпространи в други германски езици, като английски. 
Неговият езичник беше *haithno* . Има две идеи за това как той излезе с тази дума: 
1. Той готифицира гръцкия _етнос_ , вероятно чрез арменската дума_хетанос_ . 
2. Той го моделира с латинската дума _paganus_ (езически). Поган означаваше някой, който живееше в провинцията, но тъй като градовете се християнизираха, това означаваше нехристиянин. По същия начин, езичниците бяха някой, който живееше на хейт, който сега беше разглеждан като нехристиянин. [/ ЦИТАТ]

The origin of the name may be related here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajduk

----------


## BMW

Thank you, Krum!

----------


## BMW

Krum,

"Moyat Y-DNA me prosledyava imeto "Hait", koeto e vŭzmozhno armenski proizkhod"

Fascinating!.....and you are haplogroup "E".
I will have to do some research and find out if haplogroups "E" and "T" may have migrated together at some point.

----------


## BMW

_Krum,

Alemanni_. The _Alemanni_ (also _Alamanni_; Suebi "Swabians") were a confederation of Germanic _tribes_ on the Upper Rhine River.

In 496, the _Alemanni_ were conquered by Frankish leader Clovis and incorporated into his dominions.
Haito of Reichenau….was born in 763, of a noble family of Swabia.



*The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians*

According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups.






*Ancient Greeks*

The *Pelasgians* (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago.

----------


## Krum

> _Krum,
> 
> Alemanni_. The _Alemanni_ (also _Alamanni_; Suebi "Swabians") were a confederation of Germanic _tribes_ on the Upper Rhine River.
> 
> In 496, the _Alemanni_ were conquered by Frankish leader Clovis and incorporated into his dominions.
> Haito of Reichenau….was born in 763, of a noble family of Swabia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello,
Yes, it is possible because these are many groups. The link I sent you is about one possible origin of the surname HAYDT / HAYT from the word "hajduk". The etymology of the word "hajduk" is unclear. One theory is that the Hajduk was derived from the Turkish word haidut or haydut, which was originally used by the Ottomans to refer to Hungarian and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth infantry soldiers. Another theory suggests that the word comes from the Hungarian hajtó or "hajdó" (plural hajtók or "hajdók"), meaning a (cattle) drover. Indeed, these two theories do not necessarily contradict each other, as the Balkan word is said to be derived from the Turkish word haiduk or hayduk (bandit).
Other spellings in English include hayduck, haydut, haiduk, haiduc, hayduck, hayduk. The time period when it appears can also guide you

----------


## torzio

> _Krum,
> Alemanni_. The _Alemanni_ (also _Alamanni_; Suebi "Swabians") were a confederation of Germanic _tribes_ on the Upper Rhine River.
> In 496, the _Alemanni_ were conquered by Frankish leader Clovis and incorporated into his dominions.
> Haito of Reichenau….was born in 763, of a noble family of Swabia.
> *The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians*
> According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups.
> *Ancient Greeks*
> The *Pelasgians* (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago.


Imo, the only T1a branch found in the levant was mostly T1a1, with pages00011 heading to egypt with R-v88
The only T1a2 i recall in the BC levant was the history of the Lemba, who began in an area north of lebanon and migrated to south africa, once there they accepted wifes, unsure if they are from the jewish faith
More likely for Your T1a2 is either from Chios, Ancient Lycien or northern asia minor.....or what the ancients writers called , the Asiatics

----------


## BMW

> Imo, the only T1a branch found in the levant was mostly T1a1, with pages00011 heading to egypt with R-v88
> The only T1a2 i recall in the BC levant was the history of the Lemba, who began in an area north of lebanon and migrated to south africa, once there they accepted wifes, unsure if they are from the jewish faith
> More likely for Your T1a2 is either from Chios, Ancient Lycien or northern asia minor.....or what the ancients writers called , the Asiatics


Were the Thracians ever in northern asia minor?
I now see that they were in Anatolia, among other nearby areas....and Pannonia.

----------


## torzio

> Were the Thracians ever in northern asia minor?
> I now see that they were in Anatolia, among other nearby areas....and Pannonia.


Asia minor is anatolia, same place
Yes, iirc , bithniya was thracian, its eastern neighbour Pala was not, nor its neighbour western troad lands .....but i am unsure when its southern phrygians got there.....but we know these phrygians fought a serious of wars against the Lydians circa 500 bc......
Herodusus does claim the thracoans are the second biggest nation of people after the indians and their steppe border was with the cimmerians

----------


## BMW

> Asia minor is anatolia, same place
> Yes, iirc , bithniya was thracian, its eastern neighbour Pala was not, nor its neighbour western troad lands .....but i am unsure when its southern phrygians got there.....but we know these phrygians fought a serious of wars against the Lydians circa 500 bc......
> Herodusus does claim the thracoans are the second biggest nation of people after the indians and their steppe border was with the cimmerians



Thanks for that, torzio.

----------


## BMW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

*-*  Hatti (/ˈhæti/ )

- Hattians ( /ˈhætiənz/ ) - Germanic name of _Haid, Hait or Heit_ ??



http://realhistoryww.com/world_histo...a_Turkey_2.htm

----------


## BMW

YFull has their updated YTree.....YTree v7.09.01 at 25 November 2019 

They have CTS8862 as one of my terminal SNPs...along with CTS8489, CTS10538, CTS9984, Y26649, Z19944, Z19951 and Z19953.

----------


## BMW

....on FTDNA:

NEGATIVE - CTS8862
PRESUMED NEGATIVE - Z19944, Z19945, CTS9984
POSITIVE - CTS8489, CTS10538, Y26649, Z19951, Z19953


Two distinct different set of results when it comes to the matter of CTS8862 .
Any thoughts?

----------


## torzio

> ....on FTDNA:
> 
> NEGATIVE - CTS8862
> PRESUMED NEGATIVE - Z19944, Z19945, CTS9984
> POSITIVE - CTS8489, CTS10538, Y26649, Z19951, Z19953
> 
> 
> Two distinct different set of results when it comes to the matter of CTS8862 . 
> Any thoughts?


you are the irish I presume in the attachment below



yf67318 is a bernot, i think a brother of the person I speak to , a belgium from walloon area

yf67091 ........Brooks is from Hanover Germany and I need to speak to him again, we are 1 step apart in ftdna but together in yfull

reddick knox is the Hessian we spoke about earlier

ers256892 is an italian from Trentino lands ......IIRC fonzaso area, he also has snp z19945 found in yfull

no idea on sample from spain or puerto rico

----------


## BMW

Yes, that is my 2nd great grandfather Patrick Walsh.

----------


## torzio

> Yes, that is my 2nd great grandfather Patrick Walsh.


so what difference is there between ftdna and yfull for yourself ?

----------


## BMW

> so what difference is there between ftdna and yfull for yourself ?


FTDNA has me negative for CTS8862
YFull has CTS8862 as a "*terminal SNP"*

----------


## BMW



----------


## torzio

> My YFull SNP matches:


wow....58 shared snp"s

----------


## torzio

> FTDNA has me negative for CTS8862
> YFull has me positive for CTS8862...."A *terminal SNP"*


go to yfull snp checker and put in CTS8862 and see how many stars and any comments

----------


## BMW

torzio,

Can you read that alright? I was going to delete it and try again.

----------


## torzio

> torzio,
> 
> Can you read that alright? I was going to delete it and try again.


i can read it now.....I am back home ...............I spent a week in central-australia ( Ularu ) only had mobile coverage...........

i get 4 stars via snp checker for cts8862 and noted positive

CTS8489 , I get 4 stars , noted ? ........but 1 positive reading and no negative reading, so they assume positive

Z19945, I get 3 stars, noted positive and 3 positive readings

----------


## BMW

> i can read it now.....I am back home ...............I spent a week in central-australia ( Ularu ) only had mobile coverage...........
> 
> i get 4 stars via snp checker for cts8862 and noted positive
> 
> CTS8489 , I get 4 stars , noted ? ........but 1 positive reading and no negative reading, so they assume positive
> 
> Z19945, I get 3 stars, noted positive and 3 positive readings


Well, I am confused....
For CTS8862 I get four stars and a negative. That does not sound like a terminal SNP does it?

----------


## torzio

> Well, I am confused....
> For CTS8862 I get four stars and a negative. That does not sound like a terminal SNP does it?



no it does not

click on left side ...........and it should give you more info

cts8862 and cts8489 are the same group in yfull

yfull stopped reading my cts8489 because i was already positive for cts8862 ................you might be reversed from me

----------


## BMW

> no it does not
> 
> click on left side ...........and it should give you more info
> 
> cts8862 and cts8489 are the same group in yfull
> 
> yfull stopped reading my cts8489 because i was already positive for cts8862 ................you might be reversed from me


Am I able to send you that additional info as an attachment?

----------


## BMW

YFull SNP check for CTS8862

----------


## torzio

> YFull SNP check for CTS8862


what does it say when you hover mouse of number 44 ?

----------


## BMW

"what does it say when you hover mouse of number 44 ?"

It gives me no further info when I put the cursor on 44.

----------


## torzio

> "what does it say when you hover mouse of number 44 ?"
> 
> It gives me no further info when I put the cursor on 44.


ok

mine was 73 reads

CTS8862
T-CTS8489
 .BAM

+



positive at the end..............I wonder why you get a negative

write to Julia Sorokina from yfull ..........she will help you and she is prompt

----------


## BMW

I have written to YFull.
It took FTDNA awhile to realize that CTS8489 and CTS8862 are not the same. Apparently YFull is playing "Catch up".

----------


## torzio

> I have written to YFull.
> It took FTDNA awhile to realize that CTS8489 and CTS8862 are not the same. Apparently YFull is playing "Catch up".



then it is strange that ftdna put CTS8489 and CTS8862 in the same group

*Gamma-1.1-X T-CTS11984 or T-CTS8862 Unmatched 

*you sit with Christopher Hoff ( 1 step from myself ) and Levi Lee ...........( spoke to Lee , a while back, I think he was from York UK )

----------


## torzio

> you are the irish I presume in the attachment below
> 
> 
> 
> yf67318 is a bernot, i think a brother of the person I speak to , a belgium from walloon area
> 
> yf67091 ........Brooks is from Hanover Germany and I need to speak to him again, we are 1 step apart in ftdna but together in yfull
> 
> reddick knox is the Hessian we spoke about earlier
> ...


ftdna , now have me as only a difference of 20 SNP out of 620 in relation with Mr. Brooks ( but 1 step difference )......................20, that's, what, a 1000 years ?

around in circles......Brooks sits with the Curtiss family ( also ydna T ) and the Curtiss sit with the Frush family ( also have ydna T )


the brooks line
https://www.tributaries.info/p2539.htm

i need to link the german line to it .....................it might also link with your line

linked to curtiss from
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Freshour?iframe=yresults

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/su...ur/264/mb.ashx

----------


## BMW

> then it is strange that ftdna put CTS8489 and CTS8862 in the same group
> 
> *Gamma-1.1-X T-CTS11984 or T-CTS8862 Unmatched 
> 
> *you sit with Christopher Hoff ( 1 step from myself ) and Levi Lee ...........( spoke to Lee , a while back, I think he was from York UK )


I agree. It is a _conundrum._

----------


## BMW

YFull update of T-CTS3767 ...

----------


## torzio

> YFull update of T-CTS3767 ... ( they have been alerted of the "formed 0 ybp" error with Z19945 for the next YTree. )


I think it was 3350 in the past

i just looked at yfull...i get this below



so Z19945 is year 1150BC ....when it was 1460BC

the formed dates and the TMRCA dates do not make sense as they sit in my link

----------

