# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Who were the greatest Italians in history ?

## Maciamo

This thread is intended to complement the greatest Italian contributions of the world. Instead of contributions, we will now be voting for individuals, regardless of whether their achievements had an impact on the rest of the world or just in their country or region. They can be national heroes, great athletes, artists, scientists, or politicians that shaped the country's identity and history. I will not restrict the meaning of Italian to the modern Italian state, born in the 1860's, but to anybody born and raised (or with dominant ancestry) in the Italian peninsula, even in ancient times. The greatest Italians ever can therefore include ancient Romans too, as long as they were from Italy itself.

Few countries have produced more renowned historical figures than Italy, and perhaps none can surpass it for individual artistic achievements. It will be a real challenge to choose _the_ greatest Italian ever. Let's start by trying to short-list 20 people for the poll.

Here are a few suggestions on top of my head :

- Julius Caesar
- Emperor Octavianus Augustus
- Dante Alighieri 
- Leonardo da Vinci
- Michelangelo
- Caravaggio
- Christopher Columbus
- Galileo Galilei
- Antonio Vivaldi
- Giuseppe Garibaldi
- Giovanni Agnelli

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## Arlecchino

Hi Maciamo and hi all, I'm new here.


This is my list of the greatest italians in history to consider.

Rulers/Militars/Politicians:

- Camillo Benso Count of Cavour
- Giuseppe Mazzini
- Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus 
*- Julius Caesar
- Emperor Octavianus Augustus*
*- Giuseppe Garibaldi
*- Gaius Marius
*- Lorenzo de Medici
*- Andrea Doria
-* Cicero 
*
Artists (Music, paints, sculptures etc.):

*- Leonardo da Vinci
- Michelangelo
- Caravaggio
*- Antonio Vivaldi
*- Giuseppe Verdi
*- Sandro Botticelli
- Giorgio De Chirico
- Sergio Pininfarina
*- Gian Lorenzo Bernini
*- Antonio Canova
- Donato Bramante
- Filippo Brunelleschi
*- Andrea Palladio
*- Giacomo Puccini
- Gioachino Rossini
- Ennio Morricone
- Federico Fellini

Writers (poets, historians etc.) :

*- Dante Alighieri 
- Giacomo Leopardi
*- Virgil
- Catullus
- Horace
- Sallust
- Ludovico Ariosto
*- Niccolò Machiavelli
*- Petrarca
- Torquato Tasso
- Cesare Beccaria
- Gabriele D'Annunzio
- Giosuè Carducci
- Ugo Foscolo
- Alessandro Manzoni
- Giovanni Pascoli
- Giovanni Verga
- Primo Levi
- Italo Calvino
- Giuseppe Ungaretti
- Eugenio Montale

Inventors and scientists: 

*- Galileo Galilei 
- Archimedes*
- Joseph-Louis Lagrange 
- Antonio Meucci
- Alessandro Volta
- Enrico Fermi
- Evangelista Torricelli
*- Guglielmo Marconi
*
Others:

- Giovanni Agnelli 
- Saint Benedetto Of Norcia
*- Marco Polo
*- Reinhold Messner
*- Cristoforo Colombo
- Saint Francesco of Assisi
*- Enzo Ferrari


I could have forgotten someone.


Highlighted the 20 greatest.

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## Sybilla

Hello,
this is my list of the greatest Italians.

ARTISTS/COMPONISTS
*Michelangelo
Vivaldi
Verdi
Tiziano 

*EXPLORERS
*Colombo (discovery of America)
John Cabot (born Giovanni Caboto)
Marco Polo (first western man to reach China, and the first to hear about the existence of Japan)
Amerigo Vespucci 
*
MILITARS/POLITICIANS
*Julius Caesar
Marcus Aurelius
Octavian


*WRITERS
*Dante Alighieri
Niccolò Machiavelli
Boccaccio

*SCIENTISTS AND MATHEMATICIANS
*Majorana (important progresses of the quantistic physic)
Rita Levi Montalcini (she collaborated in the knowledge and studies of parkinson, alzheimer and cancer)
Enrico Fermi (inventor of the nuclear reactor)
Giovanni Agnelli (inventor of Ferrari)
*

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## Arlecchino

Giovanni Agnelli did not invent Ferrrai. Enzo Ferrari did.

Of course there can be different opinions, but I think that you can't not consider Leonardo da Vinci, Leopardi, Caravaggio, Marconi and also others, that made so far more than Tiziano, Caboto, Majorana, Agnelli, Rita Levi Montalcini and Boccaccio..

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## UnionJack

You've forgotten one of the greatest, Benito Mussolini!

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## Vallicanus

> You've forgotten one of the greatest, Benito Mussolini!


 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  You like a good joke, right? :Grin:  :Grin:  :Grin:

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## UnionJack

> You like a good joke, right?


No, he was a good leader and good for the people (of his time).

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## Yetos

> Hello,
> this is my list of the greatest Italians.
> 
> ARTISTS/COMPONISTS
> *Michelangelo
> Vivaldi
> Verdi
> Tiziano 
> 
> ...


*
Colombo* is not certain if he was Italian, 
There is a family name and an old naval tradition in the island of Chios in Greece,
may I remind you that Greeks knew about the new continent before the West Europe, 
since the tomb of the last Byzantine emperor is in Bermuda, 

we know that last Byzantines moved with vessels to Bermuda in order to move west to the the new land much before Colombo, as also the the tomb of Byzantine Mιχαηλ Παλαιολογος is an evidence that 20 years before Colombo another Colombo from island of Chios travel West, according myth he was the uncle of the known Colombo.

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## Vallicanus

> No, he was a good leader and good for the people (of his time).


So good that he led his country to defeat and disaster in WW2.

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## UnionJack

> So good that he led his country to defeat and disaster in WW2.


That doesn't make him a bad leader, it makes him a bad war strategist, don't you know the difference between the two?  :Confused:

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## zanipolo

> This thread is intended to complement the greatest Italian contributions of the world. Instead of contributions, we will now be voting for individuals, regardless of whether their achievements had an impact on the rest of the world or just in their country or region. They can be national heroes, great athletes, artists, scientists, or politicians that shaped the country's identity and history. I will not restrict the meaning of Italian to the modern Italian state, born in the 1860's, but to anybody born and raised (or with dominant ancestry) in the Italian peninsula, even in ancient times. The greatest Italians ever can therefore include ancient Romans too, as long as they were from Italy itself.
> 
> Few countries have produced more renowned historical figures than Italy, and perhaps none can surpass it for individual artistic achievements. It will be a real challenge to choose _the_ greatest Italian ever. Let's start by trying to short-list 20 people for the poll.
> 
> Here are a few suggestions on top of my head :
> 
> - Julius Caesar
> - Emperor Octavianus Augustus
> - Dante Alighieri 
> ...


I have never seen any Roman person as referred to as an Italian - The first 2 named

Columbus was a catalan from barcelona who moved his family to Genoa because catalans ( as well as basques) where not permitted to go to the new world at this time. He could not even speak genoese.

Garibaldi was born in Nice which was Italian but was given to france before his death - does it make him a citizen of both ?

Should the list comprise of only people from the creation of Italy after 1860 and not before. ?

The system can make people born of nations which do not exist wrongly referenced.

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## zanipolo

> Hello,
> this is my list of the greatest Italians.
> 
> ARTISTS/COMPONISTS
> *Michelangelo
> Vivaldi
> Verdi
> Tiziano 
> 
> ...


Its not giovanni caboto its Zuan Caboto, thats how he signed his name ( also in England)

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## Carlos

> Zanipolo
> Columbus was a catalan from barcelona who moved his family to Genoa because catalans ( as well as basques) where not permitted to go to the new world at this time. He could not even speak genoese.


The literature on the origin of Columbus is varied, and data is very curious that hold different opinions. In this case it is the Catalan nationalism which instructs foreign historians research the origin of Columbus and who pays charge, know what I mean!

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## Francisus

maybe in 100 years people will refer to steve angello like this?
If had 10 posts already id post a song and show a SAng. song

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## binx

> Columbus was a catalan from barcelona who moved his family to Genoa because catalans ( as well as basques) where not permitted to go to the new world at this time. He could not even speak genoese.
> 
> Garibaldi was born in Nice which was Italian but was given to france before his death - does it make him a citizen of both ?
> 
> Should the list comprise of only people from the creation of Italy after 1860 and not before. ?
> 
> The system can make people born of nations which do not exist wrongly referenced.


Where have you studied history? On uncyclopedia.org?

Cristoforo Colombo was Italian. And Garibaldi was also Italian. No French would never dream of saying that Garibaldi is French. 

I'm really surprised about your assumptions, but are you really of Italian origin?

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## binx

> Its not giovanni caboto its Zuan Caboto, thats how he signed his name ( also in England)


Again. Giovanni Caboto was Venetian, and his family came from Gaeta. Zuan is the Venetian language form.

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## binx

@ Zanipolo

From Encyclopædia Britannica

*Christopher Columbus (Italian explorer)*

*Christopher Columbus**,* Italian Cristoforo Colombo, Spanish Cristóbal Colón (born between Aug. 26 and Oct. 31?, 1451, Genoa [Italy]—died May 20, 1506, Valladolid, Spain), master navigator and admiral whose four transatlantic voyages (1492–93, 1493–96, 1498–1500, and 1502–04) opened the way for European exploration, exploitation, and colonization of the Americas.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...opher-Columbus

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## Nobody1

> Again. Giovanni Caboto was Venetian, and his family came from Gaeta.


*Genoese*, Cabot and Columbus were Genoese
http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/History/.../1498ayala.htm

*Pedro de Ayala* - 1498
_I think Your Highnesses have already heard how the king of England has equipped a fleet to explore certain islands or mainland which he has been assured certain persons who set out last year from Bristol in search of the same have discovered. I have seen the map made by the discoverer, who is another Genoese like Columbus,.... For the last seven years the people of Bristol have equipped two, three [and] four caravels to go in search of the island of Brazil and the Seven Cities according to the fancy of this Genoese._ 

not to be forgotten the Vivaldi brothers, in many ways the Genoese were far superior than the Venetians;

Victorious in Battle (Ponza 1435) but defeated in Politics, what a tragedy;

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## binx

> *Genoese*, Cabot and Columbus were Genoese
> http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/History/.../1498ayala.htm
> 
> *Pedro de Ayala* - 1498
> _I think Your Highnesses have already heard how the king of England has equipped a fleet to explore certain islands or mainland which he has been assured certain persons who set out last year from Bristol in search of the same have discovered. I have seen the map made by the discoverer, who is another Genoese like Columbus,.... For the last seven years the people of Bristol have equipped two, three [and] four caravels to go in search of the island of Brazil and the Seven Cities according to the fancy of this Genoese._ 
> 
> not to be forgotten the Vivaldi brothers, in many ways the Genoese were far superior than the Venetians;
> 
> Victorious in Battle (Ponza 1435) but defeated in Politics, what a tragedy;


Zanipolo, this time, was right. Caboto signed himself Zuan Caboto, and Zuan is the Venetian language form for Giovanni (Spanish Juan).

I knew that Pedro de Ayala stated that Caboto was from Genoa like Colombo, but seems to be more proves that Caboto had a Venetian citizenship. However, Genoese or Venetian Caboto was Italian.

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## 7omnia7

I saw an Italian tv show where a similar poll was put to vote and the majority of Italians answered that the greatest Italian (in the broad sense) of all times was Leonardo.
I guess I personally agree on that one.

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## oriental

How about the Arts: Composers like Giacomo Puccini, Vivaldi, Nino Rota (music composer of the "Godfather"); singers like Enrico Caruso, I like Andrea Bocelli, Sophia Loren (yeah, she is a singer too), Luciano Pavarotti, del Monaco, Frank Sinatra (don't laugh he's Italian), Nancy Sinatra (I like her song "Boots are made for walking" and the James Bond song "You only live twice") and also Tony Bennet ("I left my heart in San Francisco"), Mario Lanza ( of course, purists will laugh but I liked his singing); Federico Fellini, Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino ( Kill Bill).

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## oriental

Arturo Toscanini, the conductor





His name is interesting TOSCAnini. Does the Tosca means Tuscan or Toska (Alabnian)?

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## oriental

Sophia Loren singing:

Singing Greek

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## oriental



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## oriental



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## Yetos

Sorry guys 

i will dissapoint you all

scientistis 

Galileo Galilei. mostly as symbolical of a spirit.
Bernouli due to my studies.

Artists

MichelAngello & Da Vinci
Carlo Rossi

and 
and 
and 
the unique 

*Roberto Benigni*

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## marknyc

Reasons why this Italian American is not proud of Columbus:

Columbus did not prove the world was round - this was already an accepted fact. He made miscalculations based on incorrect assumptions about the size of the earth, and assumed it would be possible to reach Asia by sailing west. Instead he found the Caribbean, then inhabited by cultures with little in the way of gold, silver or trade goods. Unwilling to completely abandon his calculations, Columbus made a laughingstock of himself back in Europe by claiming that the Earth was not round, but shaped like a pear. He had not found Asia, he said, because of the bulging part of the pear near the stalk.

Columbus never forgot that his voyage was not one of exploration, but of economics. His financing came from the hope that he would find a lucrative new trade route. He did nothing of the sort: the people he met had little to trade. An opportunist, he captured some natives to show that they would make good slaves. Years later, he would be devastated to learn that Queen Isabela had decided to declare the New World off-limits to slavers.

He was a slave trader who heartlessly took men and women away from their families in order to lessen his failure to find a new trade route. His contemporaries despised him. As governor of Santo Domingo on Hispaniola, he was a despot who kept all profits for himself and his brothers, and was loathed by the colonists whose lives he controlled. Attempts were made on his life and he was actually sent back to Spain in chains at one point after his third voyage. During his fourth voyage, he and his men were stranded on Jamaica for a year when his ships rotted: no one wanted to travel there from Hispaniola to save him. He was also a cheapskate: after promising a reward to whomever spotted land first on his 1492 voyage, he refused to pay up when sailor Rodrigo de Triana did so, giving the reward to himself instead because he had seen a “glow” the night before.

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## albanopolis

> Reasons why this Italian American is not proud of Columbus:
> 
> Columbus did not prove the world was round - this was already an accepted fact. He made miscalculations based on incorrect assumptions about the size of the earth, and assumed it would be possible to reach Asia by sailing west. Instead he found the Caribbean, then inhabited by cultures with little in the way of gold, silver or trade goods. Unwilling to completely abandon his calculations, Columbus made a laughingstock of himself back in Europe by claiming that the Earth was not round, but shaped like a pear. He had not found Asia, he said, because of the bulging part of the pear near the stalk.
> 
> Columbus never forgot that his voyage was not one of exploration, but of economics. His financing came from the hope that he would find a lucrative new trade route. He did nothing of the sort: the people he met had little to trade. An opportunist, he captured some natives to show that they would make good slaves. Years later, he would be devastated to learn that Queen Isabela had decided to declare the New World off-limits to slavers.
> 
> He was a slave trader who heartlessly took men and women away from their families in order to lessen his failure to find a new trade route. His contemporaries despised him. As governor of Santo Domingo on Hispaniola, he was a despot who kept all profits for himself and his brothers, and was loathed by the colonists whose lives he controlled. Attempts were made on his life and he was actually sent back to Spain in chains at one point after his third voyage. During his fourth voyage, he and his men were stranded on Jamaica for a year when his ships rotted: no one wanted to travel there from Hispaniola to save him. He was also a cheapskate: after promising a reward to whomever spotted land first on his 1492 voyage, he refused to pay up when sailor Rodrigo de Triana did so, giving the reward to himself instead because he had seen a “glow” the night before.


Yes my friend the Earth is not a perfect sphere. It does have a very slight pear shape.

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## Sile

Very hard topic...

Michangelo .............no, he was a tuscan

Tintoretto, .........real name, Jacopo Comin ..........no, he was a venetian

Christofo Colombo ..........was he Genoese or a Catalan...........the debate still goes on ( we know he could not speak genoese )

Marco Polo ( Mark Paul ) ...........no , he was a venetian

Italians since from March 1861 ............what about Marconi ...............because he did his invention in London England.........does it count?

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## Echetlaeus

> Very hard topic...
> 
> Michangelo .............no, he was a tuscan
> 
> Tintoretto, .........real name, Jacopo Comin ..........no, he was a venetian
> 
> Christofo Colombo ..........was he Genoese or a Catalan...........the debate still goes on ( we know he could not speak genoese )
> 
> Marco Polo ( Mark Paul ) ...........no , he was a venetian
> ...


The scientific community has found that Tesla was the one invented radio transmission.

Please have your facts right!

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## Angela

> Very hard topic...
> 
> Michangelo .............no, he was a tuscan
> 
> Tintoretto, .........real name, Jacopo Comin ..........no, he was a venetian
> 
> Christofo Colombo ..........was he Genoese or a Catalan...........the debate still goes on ( we know he could not speak genoese )
> 
> Marco Polo ( Mark Paul ) ...........no , he was a venetian
> ...


Give your separatist nonsense a rest...ask Tuscans if Michelangelo and DaVinci weren't Italian because they were also Tuscan. Or the Genovese if Andrea Doria wasn't Italian because he was also Ligurian. For that matter, ask people of the Veneto if Tintoretto and Marco Polo weren't Italian as well as Venetian. 

Stop trying to pretend that you represent the views of all Italians or even of people of the Veneto when push comes to shove...the ones who don't belong to some Lega Nord off shoot group, at least. The only thing most of the Lega Nord voters ever cared about was their tax money staying in their provinces and local government control. We have them in Liguria and Toscana and Emilia as well, you know. They're not an unknown quantity to me, and I know what makes them tick. It's MONEY, and to a lesser extent it's because there's a lot of sentiment against immigration from the Third World. Then, of course, the party imploded because their idiot leaders were even more corrupt than the standard Italian politician. Stop exaggerating its significance. 

Besides, aren't you an Australian citizen yet? None of this should concern you. Oh, and have you tried running that by them? How you're not Italian, but instead a member of some fantasy country in the Alps? Good luck with that.

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## Angela

There's no way that I could choose the greatest, really. For one thing, it depends on the field. As for great Italians, there would be dozens on my list, many of whom have already been posted. 

I would add some to the above lists, although I'm leaving many out. These are just people whose work has meant something to me personally and who weren't previously mentioned :

In painting, sculpture, and architecture: Rafaello, Giotto, Ghiberti, Donatello, Cellini, Bramante, Sansovino, Della Robbia, Verrocchio, Bronzino, Veronese, Guido Reni, Modigliani.

In literature and philosophy, of those not mentioned: Ovid, Livy, Horace, Thomas Aquinas, Pico della Mirandola, Macchiavelli, Benedetto Croce. Of "modern" writers: Pirandello, Ignacio Silone, Natalia Ginzburg, Elsa Morante, Alberto Moravia, Dario Fo, Primo Levi, Carlo Levi, Umberto Eco, Oriana Fallaci. I know he's already been mentioned, but Montale is very close to my heart.

In music, of those not mentioned: Monteverdi, Pergolesi, Mascagni, Paganini, Corelli, Riccardo Muti. Of modern performers: Caruso, Gigli,Tebaldi, Scotto, Galli-Curci, Corelli, Pavarotti. More "pop" performers: Mina, DeAndre, Lucio Dalla, Zucchero, Battisti, Battiato, Nannini. 

In theater and film: Eleanora Duse, Rossellini, DeSica, Pasolini, Bertolucci, Tornatore, and yes, Sergio Leone. (Was Fellini mentioned?) As performers, there are so many, but among them, Anna Magnani, Sophia Loren, Marcello Mastroianni, Alberto Sordi,Toto. 

Educators: Maria Montessori

Scientists: Luigi Cavalli-Sforza. There are many others, but like many scientists, they work more in obscurity.

Of the ancients not mentioned so far: Marcus Agrippa, if for nothing else, for the Pantheon, my favorite building in the whole world. 

Saints: Caterina de Siena, patron saint of Italy, Roncalli, Papa Giovanni XXIII

Honorable mention: Anti-mafia crusading magistrates and others, like Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino

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## Sile

> Give your separatist nonsense a rest...ask Tuscans if Michelangelo and DaVinci weren't Italian because they were also Tuscan. Or the Genovese if Andrea Doria wasn't Italian because he was also Ligurian. For that matter, ask people of the Veneto if Tintoretto and Marco Polo weren't Italian as well as Venetian. 
> 
> Stop trying to pretend that you represent the views of all Italians or even of people of the Veneto when push comes to shove...the ones who don't belong to some Lega Nord off shoot group, at least. The only thing most of the Lega Nord voters ever cared about was their tax money staying in their provinces and local government control. We have them in Liguria and Toscana and Emilia as well, you know. They're not an unknown quantity to me, and I know what makes them tick. It's MONEY, and to a lesser extent it's because there's a lot of sentiment against immigration from the Third World. Then, of course, the party imploded because their idiot leaders were even more corrupt than the standard Italian politician. Stop exaggerating its significance. 
> 
> Besides, aren't you an Australian citizen yet? None of this should concern you. Oh, and have you tried running that by them? How you're not Italian, but instead a member of some fantasy country in the Alps? Good luck with that.


as per the constitution , michelangelo was not italian and his ancestors cannot become italian unless he fits this criteria. If any from History cannot become Italian, then they are not Italian

*Basic Criteria for Acquisition of Citizenship jus sanguinis:
*

*There were no Italian citizens prior to 17 March 1861, because Italy had not yet been a unified state. Thus the oldest Italian ancestor from whom citizenship is proven to be derived in any jus sanguinis citizenship claim must have been still alive on or after that date.**Any child born to an Italian citizen parent (including parents also having the right to Italian citizenship jus sanguinis) is ordinarily born an Italian citizen, with the following caveats:* 
*The Italian parent ordinarily must not have naturalised as a citizen of another country before both the child's birth date and the date 15 August 1992.**If the child had an Italian mother and a foreign father, the child ordinarily must have been born on or after 1 January 1948.**If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if the child was already born, and residing in a country whose citizenship he or she additionally held because of that country's jus soli nationality laws. Conversely, if the child was not born in a country whose citizenship was attributed to the child based on jus soli provisions in its nationality law, then the child could lose Italian citizenship by acquiring the citizenship of the naturalising parent. Italy generally does not attribute its citizenship based on jus soli, so an Italian child born in Italy could lose Italian citizenship in the event that his father naturalised.**If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if he or she reached legal adulthood (age 21 prior to 10 March 1975; age 18 thereafter) prior to the parent's naturalisation.
**If the child's Italian father naturalised as a citizen of another country prior to 1 July 1912, the child's Italian citizenship was not directly impacted by the father's loss if the child reached legal adulthood (age 21) by the time the father naturalised, or else if the child was residing in Italy when the father naturalised.**Italian citizens naturalising in another country prior to 15 August 1992, while being of legal adult age, typically lost their Italian citizenship at that time.**Italy has been a participant in the Strasbourg convention on the reduction of cases of multiple citizenship. Children born outside of Italy with the citizenship of a member country may not have been able to hold Italian citizenship by birth because of this convention. The convention has also extended the era when Italians could lose citizenship by foreign naturalisation to dates later than 14 August 1992, if the naturalisation were in a participant country.* 


You live in a world of propaganda, 
I have dual citizenship, but my parents do not..............*they are no longer Italian according to the Italian government*........but I am

Besides, didn't you ignore me...........so do not respond to me either...............or do you want the best of both worlds! ........typical

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## Sile

> The scientific community has found that Tesla was the one invented radio transmission.
> 
> Please have your facts right!


ok, if that the facts

Then I cannot recall of any famous Italian

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## Echetlaeus

> ok, if that the facts
> 
> Then I cannot recall of any famous Italian


C' mon bro, they were famous Italians since the period of the Roman Empire ...

And the word Italian is as old as Hellene, so it does not mean only the new era.

There was this famous physicist Enrico Fermi.

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## Sile

> C' mon bro, they were famous Italians since the period of the Roman Empire ...
> 
> And the word Italian is as old as Hellene, so it does not mean only the new era.
> 
> There was this famous physicist Enrico Fermi.


sorry you do not understand

as late as 1847 as well as at the congress of Vienna in 1820, all Europeans leaders amintained that Italy was a geographical expression. This term goes back to the end of the Roman Empire.
The term geographical expression is like the term Balkan............its an area............greeks, macedonians, albanians , bulgarians etc are balkan people ........this is a geographical expression. Italy was a geographical expression as late as 1847 according to all European leaders

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## Echetlaeus

> sorry you do not understand
> 
> as late as 1847 as well as at the congress of Vienna in 1820, all Europeans leaders amintained that Italy was a geographical expression. This term goes back to the end of the Roman Empire.
> The term geographical expression is like the term Balkan............its an area............greeks, macedonians, albanians , bulgarians etc are balkan people ........this is a geographical expression. Italy was a geographical expression as late as 1847 according to all European leaders


We should not care that much of what politicians say, after all things change.

When someone says Italy, he means the Italian peninsula (the "boot").

What we should care for is what people believe. If they considered themselves Italians, they are Italians ...

Venetians, Genovese, Napolitanos etc. spoke the same language, and in general had almost everything in common. To me this is what characterizes a nation. For your country is the so called _Italikon_, similar to the notion of the _Hellenikon._

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## Sile

> We should not care that much of what politicians say, after all things change.
> 
> When someone says Italy, he means the Italian peninsula (the "boot").
> 
> What we should care for is what people believe. If they considered themselves Italians, they are Italians ...
> 
> Venetians, Genovese, Napolitanos etc. spoke the same language, and in general had almost everything in common. To me this is what characterizes a nation. For your country is the so called _Italikon_, similar to the notion of the _Hellenikon._


Italian regional languages belong to different linguistic trees . they did not speak the same language.
In 1861 when Italy formed only 3% of 22 million "italians" spoke Italian


If Italy never formed in 1861,.............what would they be called today ?.............Italians due to geographical terms .
British, Iberian, Scandinavian...........are all Geographical terms

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## Echetlaeus

> Italian regional languages belong to different linguistic trees . they did not speak the same language.
> In 1861 when Italy formed only 3% of 22 million "italians" spoke Italian
> 
> 
> If Italy never formed in 1861,.............what would they be called today ?.............Italians due to geographical terms .
> British, Iberian, Scandinavian...........are all Geographical terms


It is natural to have topical accents, yet I suppose that the core of the language was the same, i.e., they could understand each other, no?

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## Sile

maybe

*Andrea Zanzotto*

*Poet*

Andrea Zanzotto is widely considered one of the most important Italian and European poets of the twentieth century. From the fall of Fascism in the 1940s to the economic boom of the late 1950s, and from the student protests and "hot autumn" of the 1960s to the advent of a mass culture in the 1970s, Zanzotto's poetry has registered the profound social and cultural changes that have transformed postwar Italy


me son ris-cià, picolà in fo'ra, 
fin a cavàr su da chisà onde 
fin a sforzharme co 'sta sécia zbuzàda 
co 'sto tàmizo de maja 'ramài masa larga 
a cavàr su 'l parlar vècio 

I have risked, out on a limb,
to the point of pulling out from who knows where 
to the point of trying with this pail full of holes 
with this sieve with a mesh now too-large
to pull up the old idiom 

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40157261?uid=3737536&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&s id=21104063532947

http://www.academia.edu/344544/The_S...ingual_Edition

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## Echetlaeus

Sile, it's fine to have a love for your place of birth (locality)! Who does not after all? But eventually we all belong to a bigger group, the nation.

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## Angela

> We should not care that much of what politicians say, after all things change.
> 
> When someone says Italy, he means the Italian peninsula (the "boot").
> 
> What we should care for is what people believe. If they considered themselves Italians, they are Italians ...
> 
> Venetians, Genovese, Napolitanos etc. spoke the same language, and in general had almost everything in common. To me this is what characterizes a nation. For your country is the so called _Italikon_, similar to the notion of the _Hellenikon._



Don't waste your time, Echetlaeus. Unless, of course, you just want to stoke the fire to watch it burn!

I knew he wasn't Italian. Another one of these _diaspora_ _Italians_, not educated there, who know nothing of its history or culture, who have never lived there, and who know nothing of current (or past) Italian attitudes, opinions, or, God knows, politics, but presume to opine on all these matters. That's if even the claim of Veneto ancestry is legitimate. How many "Italians" on anthrofora are actually Italian at all? Or are of the ethnicity they claim? Disturbed people hiding behind pseudo identities. 

You'll meet Greek Americans like them too, but they, like southern Italians, at least have the decency to be proud of their ancestry and culture. Even among the admittedly small group of northern Italians I know here, some from northeastern Italy as well as the rest of the north, I've never heard such nonsense. Renounce one of the greatest cultures on earth to claim allegiance with some _fantasy ethnicity_ centered on some cow pat covered Alpine fields? Madness. 

Thank-goodness I timed out while writing my post for the thread, and so wound up on the Activity feed where despite my ignore list I was able to see that misguided comment. When the subject is genetics people can read the relevant papers and come to their own conclusions about the worth, or lack of it, of certain posts. When it's about another country readers have no way of knowing how much weight to give certain comments. I'm not about to let some one carry on with this kind of masquerade and mislead fellow forum members.

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## Sile

> Sile, it's fine to have a love for your place of birth (locality)! Who does not after all? But eventually we all belong to a bigger group, the nation.


nations have run their course , they are not needed anymore...unions like the EU is needed, and the EU does not need nations in it

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## Angela

Another thread totally ruined because it is taken off topic by people with bizarre ideas and conduct.

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## Sile

> Don't waste your time, Echetlaeus. Unless, of course, you just want to stoke the fire to watch it burn!
> 
> I knew he wasn't Italian. Another one of these _diaspora_ _Italians_, not educated there, who know nothing of its history or culture, who have never lived there, and who know nothing of current (or past) Italian attitudes, opinions, or, God knows, politics, but presume to opine on all these matters. That's if even the claim of Veneto ancestry is legitimate. How many "Italians" on anthrofora are actually Italian at all? Or are of the ethnicity they claim? Disturbed people hiding behind pseudo identities. 
> 
> You'll meet Greek Americans like them too, but they, like southern Italians, at least have the decency to be proud of their ancestry and culture. Even among the admittedly small group of northern Italians I know here, some from northeastern Italy as well as the rest of the north, I've never heard such nonsense. Renounce one of the greatest cultures on earth to claim allegiance with some _fantasy ethnicity_ centered on some cow pat covered Alpine fields? Madness. 
> 
> Thank-goodness I timed out while writing my post for the thread, and so wound up on the Activity feed where despite my ignore list I was able to see that misguided comment. When the subject is genetics people can read the relevant papers and come to their own conclusions about the worth, or lack of it, of certain posts. When it's about another country readers have no way of knowing how much weight to give certain comments. I'm not about to let some one carry on with this kind of masquerade and mislead fellow forum members.


retric of a confused brain-washed person 

As usual I give the logical documentation...you give your fantasy ideas. 
When are you going to give some real facts on the situation.
As i stated, If Italy did not form in 1861, would they still be Italian by geographical expression

As usual....you promise many things, but they never eventuate, because your promises are fantasies. And when you cannot deliver, you get into a tantrum..........not just with me, but with many I have seen recently...............you basically need to get your own way...like a spoilt child

You hide behind your New York abode and claim Italian .......are you not an American?

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## Pax Augusta

> Arturo Toscanini, the conductor
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;Nt7pPKXDhPc]His name is interesting TOSCAnini. Does the Tosca means Tuscan or Toska (Alabnian)?


Obviously, Tosca means from Tuscany, Italy.

Tosk (Albanian) is a word borrowed from Latin but it's not related to Tuscany or Tuscan.

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## Pax Augusta

> Don't waste your time, Echetlaeus. Unless, of course, you just want to stoke the fire to watch it burn!
> 
> I knew he wasn't Italian. Another one of these _diaspora_ _Italians_, not educated there, who know nothing of its history or culture, who have never lived there, and who know nothing of current (or past) Italian attitudes, opinions, or, God knows, politics, but presume to opine on all these matters. That's if even the claim of Veneto ancestry is legitimate. How many "Italians" on anthrofora are actually Italian at all? Or are of the ethnicity they claim? Disturbed people hiding behind pseudo identities. 
> 
> You'll meet Greek Americans like them too, but they, like southern Italians, at least have the decency to be proud of their ancestry and culture. Even among the admittedly small group of northern Italians I know here, some from northeastern Italy as well as the rest of the north, I've never heard such nonsense. Renounce one of the greatest cultures on earth to claim allegiance with some _fantasy ethnicity_ centered on some cow pat covered Alpine fields? Madness. 
> 
> Thank-goodness I timed out while writing my post for the thread, and so wound up on the Activity feed where despite my ignore list I was able to see that misguided comment. When the subject is genetics people can read the relevant papers and come to their own conclusions about the worth, or lack of it, of certain posts. When it's about another country readers have no way of knowing how much weight to give certain comments. I'm not about to let some one carry on with this kind of masquerade and mislead fellow forum members.


I completely agree with you.

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## oldeuropeanculture

The man who invented pizza???

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## Aberdeen

> The man who invented pizza???


Pizza was most likely invented by an Italian woman, not an Italian man.

I would personally add to the list of great Italians the name of whoever invented grappa.

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## oldeuropeanculture

uuuuu, grappa is lethal....it burns better than gasoline....

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## Aberdeen

> uuuuu, grappa is lethal....it burns better than gasoline....


Generally speaking, I find Italian liqueurs to be potentially lethal. Sambuca and Frangelico seem much more benign than grappa - until you drink too much of either.

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## Duarte

Leonardo Da Vinci is, without a doubt, one of the greatest Italian geniuses of all times: Here's a recent curiosity about his descent: Leonardo Da Vinci's family tree reveals 14 living descendants.

_“The family tree of the Renaissance-era Italian polymath Leonardo da Vinci has been traced across 690 years and 21 generations — revealing 14 living male descendants._
_Historians Alessandro Vezzosi and Agnese Sabato have spent a decade delving through records to piece together the male line of the da Vinci family.”

_https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...relations.html
http://www.pontecorboli.com/digital/...nardos-DNA.pdf

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## Angela

> Leonardo Da Vinci is, without a doubt, one of the greatest Italian geniuses of all times: Here's a recent curiosity about his descent: Leonardo Da Vinci's family tree reveals 14 living descendants.
> 
> _“The family tree of the Renaissance-era Italian polymath Leonardo da Vinci has been traced across 690 years and 21 generations — revealing 14 living male descendants._
> _Historians Alessandro Vezzosi and Agnese Sabato have spent a decade delving through records to piece together the male line of the da Vinci family.”
> 
> _https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...relations.html
> http://www.pontecorboli.com/digital/...nardos-DNA.pdf


Very interesting, Duarte. Thanks.

I think this research will mainly be useful for proof of identity if they ever get their hands on remains claimed to be those of Leonardo. I doubt the autosomes will tell them much.

For one thing, after all this time the amount of dna they share with him will be infinitesimal. Also, the male descendants of the Vinci family haven't exactly set the world on fire, and indeed everything I know of Leonardo's father indicates he was a very prosaic man.

Perhaps the genius came through his mother, along with maybe some fortuitous mutations. We'll never be able to trace her descendants, though, as so little is known of her.

Now, if they could only study his actual remains! :)

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## citlec

what about Guglielmo Marconi?

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## Regio X

One more: Leon Battista Alberti - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti

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## citlec

Marco Polo, Benvenuto Cellini, Giuseppe Garibaldi or Enrico Caruso.

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## Vallicanus

Enrico Fermi

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## Dax Bryant

> Leonardo Da Vinci is, without a doubt, one of the greatest Italian geniuses of all times: Here's a recent curiosity about his descent: Leonardo Da Vinci's family tree reveals 14 living descendants.
> 
> _“The family tree of the Renaissance-era Italian polymath Leonardo da Vinci has been traced across 690 years and 21 generations — revealing 14 living male descendants._
> _Historians Alessandro Vezzosi and Agnese Sabato have spent a decade delving through records to piece together the male line of the da Vinci family.”
> _It seems to me that one of the greatest Italians in all of history can also be called Julius Caesar, who pursued a rather interesting, controversial, but at the same time Great policy that changed world history. On the site https://graduateway.com/essay-examples/julius-caesar/ I read some interesting studies about Julius Caesar, his biographical details of life and his politics in general.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...relations.html
> http://www.pontecorboli.com/digital/...nardos-DNA.pdf


I absolutely agree with you.

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## MagnusFarseeR

Julius Caesar is in the top 5.

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