# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Y-DNA Haplogroups in Iraqi Kurdistan

## Alan

J2 - 28.4%
R1b - 16.8%
I - 16.8%
R1a - 11.6%
J1 - 11.6%
E1b1b - 7.4%
G - 4.2%
T - 3.2

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...776ade5baa84c4

Edit: Fixed Haplogroup L to T.

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## Alan

I have a Question to the Admin. While we have the Results of Kurdistan Turkey published, could we also do this with the Results of Kurdistan Iraq?

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## Thrace

There is no geographic region in Turkey called Kurdistan (it is also absurd to talk about such). If you mean south-east Turkey then the bulk of gentic data would represent intermixed Turkish, Kurdish, Arab, Armenian and Assyrian popula. There are some villages in south-east Turkey even from Turkic Uzbeks settled there during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So the genetic mass of the region is plentiful.

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## Alan

> There is no geographic region in Turkey called Kurdistan (it is also absurd to talk about such). If you mean south-east Turkey then the bulk of gentic data would represent intermixed Turkish, Kurdish, Arab, Armenian and Assyrian popula. There are some villages in south-east Turkey even from Turkic Uzbeks settled there during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So the genetic mass of the region is plentiful.


Well the tested individuals are ethnic Kurds so your statement has no value in this discussion.

The Region in South East and East Anatolia also known as *Kurdistan* is mainly (the big majority) settled by Kurds so it makes sense to talk about Kurdistan. only a handful Turks, Circassians, Arabs, Armenians and Syriac Christians do live in this Region. We got hundred thousand of Arabs living in turkish Adana and Hatay so it makes no sense to call this Regions turkish just because of some Arabs living there?  :Rolleyes: 


And just to update your (most probably turkish) Brain. There is a recognized autonomous Region in Irak called Kurdistan so it make sense to talk about Iraqi Kurdistan no matter in which pathetic way you try to deny this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan


So my advice for you is look at your own Business if you do not have anything useful to contribute here.  :Bored:

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## Thrace

Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region *does NOT exist*. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish. Show some respect!

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## how yes no 2

> Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region does NOT exist. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista *same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish.* Show some respect!


 sorry to disappoint your dreams of being Turkic, but Pomaks are just Slavic people who converted to islam during Ottoman rule....

similar happened in other areas ruled by Turks - e.g. in Bosnia there are lot of islamized Slavs as well... Serbs used pejoratyive name Turks for them, but it was clear to everyone they have nothing to do with real Turks except accepting their religion...though being rejected by core of their tribe some of them did start to feel as Turks......there is a saying "sold own religion/identity for dinner" for those who converted... guess same is story with Pomaks in Bulgaria...

thing is those who converted to islam had tax free life and were local administration (police, army and judges), while those who remained christians paid heavy taxes and lived mainly in villages.... such administration was best described by saying "kadija te tuzi, kadija ti sudi" ("kadija accuses you, kadija is judging you" - kadija is person from such an administration who is typically in same time playing both roles of accusing people and of being judge, which in practice means he is convert to islam who is given absolute rights over Christians)..face it, those times when your ancestors were in such a position are gone and will never return... and Pomaks and Bosnia muslims are not turkic in origin...just opportunistic local (Slavic) people who converted to islam... 

in Bosnia those opportunistic converts had even no name (in communism they were called Muslims with big 'M' in order to emphasize it is nationality and not religion) till wars in 90s when they took name Bosniacs in order to influence media war by displaying themselves as more autochtonous than Slavic people of Bosnia who are Christians (ortodox Serbs and catholics who identify themselves as Croats).... 

anyway, as autosomal testing clearly shows even in Turkey real Turkic genes are only very small part... light blue part (genes from east Asian cluster)



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04...eurasians.html


regarding YDNA haplogroups found in Kurds I would notice that they have rather European genetics... and that they might partly origin from European people making military conquests into Asia.... 

in fact, I think their haplogroup I is related to Serian/Cimmerian/Gomer people who were in my opinion ancestors of early Slavs and Serbs but also of Germans, Sardinians, Venetic people and even of Pashtun Sarbans.. haplogroup R1a is related to Scythians who entered from north of Caucasus and who were later largely incorporated into Slavic and Iranian people....those are haplogroups that distinguish them from surrounding.....
otherwise, J2 might be somewhat related to Indo-Aryans ...and R1b might be perhaps related to proto-Celts who carried copper based technology in Europe and to later Hatti people who lived in Asia minor before Hititte arrived...

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## Maciamo

> J2 - 28.4%
> R1b - 16.8%
> I - 16.8%
> R1a - 11.6%
> J1 - 11.6%
> E1b1b - 7.4%
> G - 4.2%
> L - 3.2
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...776ade5baa84c4


This proportion of haplogroups looks even more European than what is found in Greece or South Italy ! (more hg I and R, less hg E and J)

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## Maciamo

> I have a Question to the Admin. While we have the Results of Kurdistan Turkey published, could we also do this with the Results of Kurdistan Iraq?


Yes, I will add them.

EDIT : I have added the results. The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan. There is a notable absence of haplogroup T in Iraqi Kurdistan, which is strange as it is fairly high (3 to 7%) in all the surrounding regions.

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## Alan

> Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region *does NOT exist*. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish. Show some respect!


Well than I have to disappoint you. I will repeat my self in the hope that you show just a bit of matureness that you understand it.

1. The Topic of this Thread was Iraqi Kurdistan. Not Turkish and not Iranian. 
2. Greater Armenia was an Empire just like Persian and Roman Empires were.
3. We have statistical Data that all of this Regions beside three small parts of Van were not in majority Armenian but Muslim most probably kurdish. You have to read Sherefhan al Bidlisis book who lived with his tribe in Bitlis around the 15 Century. The Armenians did even clame parts of the Pontus, were the Pontus Greeks were the majority as Armenia.
4. The Name Kurdistan my dear Thrace was given to this Region with the Seljuks. This was in a time where your ancestors were still Greeks  :Laughing: . Just look after Ottoman Maps.
5. So according to your (turkish) Logic we should call Izmir, Trapezunt/Trasbzon, Busra/Bursa and Hatay not Turkey because some Greeks and Syrians might feel insulted?  :Rolleyes: 
6. Showing some Respect to a delusional Person who even Claims Kurdistan never existed while the Name Kurdistan actually was given to this Region by the original Turkish Tribes like Seljuks?


I repeat my advice to you, look at your own business  :Bored:

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## Alan

> Yes, I will add them.
> 
> EDIT : I have added the results. The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan. There is a notable absence of haplogroup T in Iraqi Kurdistan, which is strange as it is fairly high (3 to 7%) in all the surrounding regions.



Thank you very much Maciamo  :Good Job: 


It is not surprising that haplogroup I and R1a are so strong among Kurds. I have red some month ago an Article about West Iran. The Article said that in West Iran they found a good presence of Haplogroup I (20% ) too. And the West of Iran is mainly Kurdish. I think Haplogroup I is something "pan Kurdish" in West Asia/Near East. 

Note that it is also very strong in North Iran (20-30%), were the former Parthians lived who are known to have been a tribe of Scythians.

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## how yes no 2

> The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a *(Proto-)Slavic migration* to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan.


yes...interesting point.....
in my posts proto-Slavs are Cimmerians = Serians = Zeruiani and related Veneti (Cimmerians descended from Gomer and Veneti from his son Riphath in Hebrew world view)

but I did count them as I2a people...perhaps they were I2a + R1a already in start

early Slavs

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post371195

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-Slavic-people

Serians/Seres/Siraces/Serboi

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post362464

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post361839

early Slavs and Kurds

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post368310

Sherdana sea peoples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...76-sea-peoples

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## sparkey

> The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region.


An important question: is the I2 in Kurds mostly I2a-Din or I2*-B? If I2a-Din, I agree, there's an obvious Slavic component of some sort. If I2*-B, we're going to have to start looking for other explanations. I2*-B is the most common I subclade among Armenians and Cretans IIRC, but it's almost unheard of among Slavs.

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## Maciamo

> An important question: is the I2 in Kurds mostly I2a-Din or I2*-B? If I2a-Din, I agree, there's an obvious Slavic component of some sort. If I2*-B, we're going to have to start looking for other explanations. I2*-B is the most common I subclade among Armenians and Cretans IIRC, but it's almost unheard of among Slavs.


Kurdish I2 is definitely I2a, and even I2a2 if I remember well.

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## how yes no 2

some Serbian/Slavic - Kurdish common words that I found on some blog on internet that are probably non PIE derived and are not iranian/persian

serbian/slavic - kurdish - english

zakon - zagun - law
kazati - kiza - to say (persian : goftan) 
dan - dan - day
koza - gîsi[k] - goat
kratko/kortk -kurt - short (Persian: kutah)
ali - lê - but (Persian: ama)
nisko, nizak/nizik - nizim - short (Persian: paeen)
živ - žiy, zîndû -alive (Persian: zendeh)
rdjav (serb)/rezavý(chezh) - rizaw - rusty (Persian: zang/poosideh)
klin - kelen - wedge 
grom(a) - girma - thunder (Persian: tondar)
iskra - sikil/eskil - spark (Persian: zhabizh)
bljesak /*blěsk - blîsk/ brûsk -flash
kći (serbian) - kič/dot - daughter (Persian: dokhtar)
žena - žin - woman/wife (Persian: zan)
tama - tam -darkness (Persian: tar)
dol - dol -valley (Persian: dareh)
lov -row - hunt (Persian: shekar)
vera/vir - bir - faith (Persian: din/andishe) 
leska/laska - lask - small branch (Persian: shakheh)
Gorani - Gorani - highlanders (exist also as tribal names in both Slavs and Kurds)
jež / ježek - ježek - hedgehog

btw. note that Sorani (Kurdish people) is same tribal name as Serians 
and Serians are in my view proto-Slavs

manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that state of Zeruiani (again this is clearly same tribal name as Serians) was so big that all Slavs come from it

Seneca speaks of Serians in Europe, in Caspian highlands, in Serica, around red Sea

Serians of Serica (northwest China/south Siberia) are also known as Seres
Serica is also used in wider term for arc from China to India - this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I spread and matches exactly Pasthun Sarbans..

some historians claim that Zeruiani = Serbs and that tribal name Serbs was in past used for all Slavic people..

other haplogroup I people have similar tribal names to Serbs (Serbi/Srbi) - Germanic Suebi (I1, I2b), Swedes (I1), Sardinians (I2a1)

Serbs come to Balkan from land they call Boiki and that matches by description Bohemia/Bavaria (both named by tribe Boii)...they are said to have also originally dwelt there

before that south most branch of Celtic Boii are Scordisci... from area of Scordisci (Serbia of today) tribe named Serdi enters Thrace and goes to Asia minor as Celtic invasion

Cimbri are thought to origin from Cimmerians..their king has name (or title?) Boiorix (king of Boii)

Cimmerians settled among other places in Cappadocia..later in Strabo's time Cappadocians are called white Syrians (again this is same tribal name as Serians)

archeological sites of Thraco-Cimmerians in Europe match spread of I2a2 fairly well and also match fairly well spread of early Slavs

but Ptolemy in Caucasus finds Serbi/Serboi as neighbours of Cimmerians... these Serbi and Cimmerians are in Asian Sarmatia and match description of Seneca's Serians living in Caspian highlands among Sarmatians...later after invasion of turkic tribes on same place are turkic Sabirs...Chuvash of today are turkic and considered to origin from Sabirs... their autosomal DNA shows much larger Slavic genetics then turkic...

Sherden/Serden/Shardana are among sea people whose conquest went from northern lands over Asia minor, middle East, all the way to Egypt.. - a lake in Egypt is named after them Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis

Cimmerians are also known as Gomer - sons of Gomer who is considered to be father of Germanic people...
Sorani language of Kurdish people has dialect Garmiani

I2a1 is found in north Africa in Lybia - there was a rich civilization of Garmantes that has used irrigation system to turn desert into agricultural land.. ..their capital Germa is near modern town Sebha

province Kerman in Persia is also known as Germania/Zermanya... province also falls into shape spread of haplogroup I (low frequencies) ... word Kerman means battle/combat

Boii in Slavic languages means battle (boj).. related Slavic words include vojnik/bojovnik (soldier), vojvoda (leader of army - coin word boj(battle) + voditi (lead))

religion of Thracian people includes cult of thracian horseman - Sabazios (coin word Saba+Zeus) .. in thracian language sabazias = free

tribal name Suebi probably meant 'free' (people who do not subjugate)

Asia minor is settled first by Hatti then by Hittite...
Hatti have key god Taru, which is same as Germanic Thor
one of Germanic tribes is called Chatti

Hittite call same god Tarhun, which maps to Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas

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## Alan

> some Serbian/Slavic - Kurdish common words that I found on some blog on internet that are probably non PIE derived and are not iranian/persian
> 
> serbian/slavic - kurdish - english
> 
> ...



Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish. 

About the Ancestors of Kurds. What I am very sure about is, that the Alans(Sarmatians), Hurro-Urartains(Mitanni) Hethits, Scytho-Medians and Cimmerians played the biggest roles. 

Alan is a big well known Kurdish tribe. Alan is also a very popular kurdish Sure and last name. Even a big Kurdish Region in Iranian Kurdistan is named Erdalan. H/Erd means Ground, Earth and Alan means The Alan. Erdalan = the Land of Alans. 

They did found Stone tablets in a kurdish Region of Turkish Kurdistan which are similar to those found in Cimmeria and some places of Central Asia what makes me assume that they are Cimmerian. 

The Scytho-Median (The Scythians who moved into Media) traces are obvious among Kurd. You can find only in Regions were the Kurds make today the majority traces of Sakas/Scythians. The Capital of Medic Scythia was Saggez which comes from the Word Saka. In Kurdish the City is called Sêwî what is a form of Gold in Kurdish. Scythians were known for being very Gold interested.

There was also a Scythian King in North Iraq. The only People who might be descend of those People can only be Kurds. I think Iranian(Scytho-Medians, Alans, Mitannis, Cimmerians), Hethit and Caucasian (Hurro-Urartaen) groups played the biggest roles in the Kurdish Case.

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## Alan

> Sorani language of Kurdish people has dialect Garmiani


You mean the People of Germian.

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## how yes no 2

> Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish. 
> 
> About the Ancestors of Kurds. What I am very sure about is, that the Alans(Sarmatians), Hurro-Urartains, Hethits, Scytho-Medians and Cimmerians played the biggest roles.
> 
> Alan is a big well known Kurdish tribe. Alan is also a very popular kurdish Sure and last name. Even a big Kurdish Region in Iranian Kurdistan is named Erdalan. H/Erd means Ground, Earth and Alan means The Alan. Erdalan = the Land of Alans. They did found Stone tablets in a kurdish Region of Turkish Kurdistan which are similar to those found in Cimmeria and some places of Central Asia what makes me assume that they are Cimmerian.


Some historians list Serbs into Sarmatians and even into Alans, but I am not sure about that...Seneca's Serians lived among Sarmatians but were not the same... 

Ossetians are thought to descend of Alans but they are dominantly haplogroup G...though in one of tested towns they have also significant haplogroup I...

Serbi/Serboi lived in Asian Sarmatia just north of Alans, which may explain significant haplogroup I in north most town of Ossetians




> The Scytho-Median (The Scythians who moved into Media) traces are obvious among Kurd. You can find only in Regions were the Kurds make today the majority traces of Sakas/Scythians. The Capital of Medic Scythia was Saggez which comes from the Word Saka. In Kurdish the City is called Sêwî what is a form of Gold in Kurdish. Scythians were known for being very Gold interested.


regarding tribal name Scythians, word "skitati' in serbian means to wonder around 
while Scythians are known as Saka, 'sakaliba' is word that was used by Arabs for Slavic people in medieval period

"wondering around"is about nomad lifestyle...Tacitus remark about Vistula Veneti indicates that ancient historians from Rome and Greece classified tribes of north Europe into Germanic and Sarmatians by the lifestyle... the tribes who lived settled in houses were Germanic and the ones who lived as nomads were classified as Sarmatians - at least Tacitus used such explanation when he classified Vistula Veneti in Germanic tribes...

Jordanes says that Slavs are from race of Veneti
Veneti also lived in Paphlagonia, but were kicked out of there after joint expedition with related Cimmerians (Paplagonians are in Hebrew world sons of Riphat who is son of Gomer)

Slavs are knows as Wends by Germanic people
wandelen (dutch)= wonder around, move in different directions
related is word Wind in Germanic languages ...as wind is moving in different directions

Greek mythology often hides legends of origin of tribes.. 
Venti is italian name for Greek wind gods (Anemoi)... .
key wind gods are: Boreas - the north wind and bringer of cold winter air, Notus - the south wind and bringer of the storms of late summer and autumn, Zephyrus - the west wind and bringer of light spring and early summer breezes; Eurus - the east wind.. son of Zephyrus was Carpus

I map Eurus to Russians, Zephyrus to Serbs, Carpus to Croats, Boreas to Hyperboreans... Notus I do not know how to map to a tribal name

regarding word "Sêwî "
gold = zlato in Slavic languages
but word for silver is "srebro" which may be remotely similar to "Sêwî "


Scythians are based on ancient DNA thought to be dominantly R1a haplogroup
I believe Cimmerians and Veneti were dominantly I2a

east and west Slavs are dominantly R1a with significant I2a2
south Slavs are dominant I2a2 with significant R1a




> There was also a Scythian King in North Iraq. The only People who might be descend of those People can only be Kurds. I think Iranian(Scytho-Medians, Alans, Cimmerians), Hethit and Caucasian (Hurro-Urartaen) groups played the biggest roles in the Kurdish Case.


yes, I think all of them...
and some (or all?) of them are same people

Sarmatians are Medians and in Greek legends origin from group of Scythians marrying group of Amazones...thus Sarmatians and perhaps also Sarmatian Alans would be Scytho-Medians in origin

and I was wondering whether Sarmatians are same as Cimmerians
now I think Scythians were R1a, Cimmerians were I2a and Sarmatians were R1a, I2a2 and G
Alans were probably haplogroup G

Hittite have primary God whose name (Tarhun) and description maps fairly well to Slavic primary God (Perun)..Son of Tarhun is Sarruma (mountain God) who perhaps could be origin for tribal name Sarmatians

Tarhun (also known as Teshub) was carried in wagon that was using two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri
I map these to tribal names Serians and Hurians




> You mean the People of Germian.


probably... I found word Garmiani on internet when reading about Sorani language

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## Alan

> Sarmatians are Medians and in Greek legends origin from group of Scythians marrying group of Amazones...thus Sarmatian Alans would be Scytho-Medians in origin


Thats why I was talking about Scytho- Medians. Heredotus the Greek mentioned that the Medians were made up by six or seven tribes. two of them were later well known Scythian. Another interesting tribe of Medians was called "Aryan" there is even today a kurdish tribe with the tribe Name Aryan. I have a assume, it might be possible that the Medes were something like a Mother Group from which all the other Iranic tribes did evolved.





> Ossetians are thought to descend of Alans but they are dominantly haplogroup G...though in one of tested towns they have also significant haplogroup I...


South Ossetians are mainly of Haplogroup G. Ossetians of Dardania have beside of Haplogroup G also a good portion of I and R1a too. Very similar to Kurds. I think the Alans(Sarmatians) were mainly G, R1a, J* and I

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## how yes no 2

> Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish.


hm, that can be expected as those tribal names exist related to Slavs 
Zeruiani from whom Slavs origin- Serians of Seneca - Sorani 
Gorani - Gorani 

are they distinguished from other Kurds by R1a or I2a? or both?

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## Alan

> hm, that can be expected as those tribal names exist related to Slavs 
> Zeruiani from whom Slavs origin- Serians of Seneca - Sorani 
> Gorani - Gorani 
> 
> are they distinguished from other Kurds by R1a or I2a? or both?


Well the Sorans were originally just a group of Gorans who were influenced by Kurmancs. The Word Goran means Farmer or Shepheard of the Mountains. Well there are indeed some small differences. The Sorans and Gorans have higher Percentage of Haplogroup J2* compared to Kurmancis and Zaza. I also assume that most of the J2* found in Iraqi Kurdistan was from the Goran and Soran Regions. 

in Compare of Haplogroup R1a1a* they are pretty much similar.

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## how yes no 2

> Thats why I was talking about Scytho- Medians. Heredotus the Greek mentioned that the Medians were made up by six or seven tribes. two of them were later well known Scythian. Another interesting tribe of Medians was called "Aryan" there is even today a kurdish tribe with the tribe Name Aryan. I have a assume, it might be possible that the Medes were something like a Mother Group from which all the other Iranic tribes did evolved.


I have theory that Indo-Aryans were J2 with some G..alternatively they could have been R1a as those 3 haplogroups are present in Bramins

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...93-Indo-Aryans





> South Ossetians are mainly of Haplogroup G. Ossetians of Dardania have beside of Haplogroup G also a good portion of I and R1a too. Very similar to Kurds. I think the Alans(Sarmatians) were mainly G, R1a, J* and I


I did not know that there is Dardania in Caucasus as well
Dardanians lived in area of Kosovo, south Serbia

and so far we guessed that they were E-V13 and R1b and that Albanians origin from them... 

there is also Albania in Caucasus
Is Dardania in that area?

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## Alan

> I did not know that there is Dardania in Caucasus as well
> Dardanians lived in area of Kosovo, south Serbia


Sorry my mistake. I wrote Dardania but meant Diagora. Ossetians of Diagora have 13% I and Ossetians of Ardon have 30% I.




> there is also Albania in Caucasus
> Is Dardania in that area?


There was a Albania in the Caucasus. And a Iberia too.

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## alan123

Hello Kak Alan,

I agree with you on the Alan thing, it's very common among Kurds (especially in south/Iraqi Kurdistan), the name Aryan is also quite common in the sorani regions. 

I lived in South/Iraqi Kurdistan for a long time, and I can safely say that a lot of Kurds are born with european features (blond hair etc) however by the age of 6 usually we lose these features (that happened with me, I had very light brown hair and now I have black hair) also we live in a very very hot area with peaks of 50 degrees! and so many of us get tanned, however these are the White Kurds that resist all of that and keep their features through their life! and most white Kurds look Germanic/Russian... 

I'll post some pics for ya. 









I think you get the idea, but I can post more up on request.

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## Thrace

"They did found Stone tablets in a kurdish Region of Turkish Kurdistan" 

Only an ignorant goat would call the region of acient Edessa kurdish region of Turkish Kurdistan. The other absurd thing is White Kurds, Y-DNA does not constitue skin color.

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## Alan

> Hello Kak Alan,
> 
> I agree with you on the Alan thing, it's very common among Kurds (especially in south/Iraqi Kurdistan), the name Aryan is also quite common in the sorani regions. 
> 
> I lived in South/Iraqi Kurdistan for a long time, and I can safely say that a lot of Kurds are born with european features (blond hair etc) however by the age of 6 usually we lose these features (that happened with me, I had very light brown hair and now I have black hair) also we live in a very very hot area with peaks of 50 degrees! and so many of us get tanned, however these are the White Kurds that resist all of that and keep their features through their life! and most white Kurds look Germanic/Russian... 
> 
> I'll post some pics for ya. 
> 
> 
> I think you get the idea, but I can post more up on request.


Haplogroups can be a sign of features but do not have direct contact with Phenotypes. The Kurds with light Hair, from my observation go more in a "slavic" than German direction. light hair in the Childhood is nothing uncommon in the whole Western Asian Region. And they are genetically not different from those with Black Hair. So stop separating them from other Kurds by calling them "White Kurds" I don´´t like such comments.

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## DejaVu

http://en.ostan-kd.ir/Default.aspx?TabId=51
*History of the Kurds* 

Kurds are one of the Iranian peoples and speak a north-western Iranian language related to Persian.
With regard to the origin of the Kurds, it was formerly considered sufficient to describe them as the descendants of the Carduchi, who opposed the retreat of the Ten Thousand through the mountains in the 4th century BC. But modern research traces them far beyond the period of the Greeks. In their own histories, they are proud to mention the Hurrian period in the mid third millennium BC as the earliest documented period. The 3rd millennium was the time of the Guti and Hattians, the 2nd and 1st the time of the Kassites, Mitanni, Mannai, Urartu, and Mushku. It should be mentioned that the Kurds are an Indo-European people, whereas the above groups are thought to have been non Indo-Europeans, apart from the original Mitanni leadership. However, Kurds consider themselves as much Indo-European as they do any of these.
At the dawn of history the mountains overhanging Assyria were held by a people named Gutii, a title which signified "a warrior", and which was rendered in Assyrian by the synonym of Gardu or Kardu, the precise term quoted by Strabo to explain the name of the Car daces. These Gutii were a tribe of such power as to be placed in the early Cuneiform records on an equality with the other nations of western Asia, that is, with the Syrians and Hittites, the Susians, Elamites, and Akkadians of Babylonia; and during the whole period of the Assyrian Empire they seem to have preserved a more-or-less independent political position.
After the fall of Nineveh the Gutii coalesced with the Medes, and, in common with all the nations inhabiting the high plateaus of Asia Minor, Armenia and Persia, became gradually Aryanised, owing to the immigration at this period of history of tribes in overwhelming numbers who, from whatever quarter they may have sprung, belonged certainly to the Aryan family.
Cyrus reduced the Gutii or Kurdu to subjection before he descended upon Babylon, and furnished a contingent of fighting men to his successors, being thus mentioned under the names of "Saspirians" and "Alarodians" in the muster roll of the army of Xerxes, which Herodotus has preserved.
In later times they passed successively under the sway of the Macedonians, the Parthians, and Sassanids, being especially befriended, if we may judge from tradition as well as from the remains still existing in the country, by the Arsacid monarchs, who were probably of a cognate race. Gotarzes indeed, whose name may perhaps be translated "chief of the Gutii", was traditionally believed to be the founder of the Gurans, the principal tribe of southern Kurdistan, and his name and titles are still preserved in a Greek inscription at Behistun near the Kurdish capital of Kermanshah.
Under the caliphs of Baghdad the Kurds were always giving trouble in one quarter or another. In AD 838, and again in 905, formidable insurrections occurred in northern Kurdistan; the amir, Aqpd-addaula, was obliged to lead ten forces of the caliphate against the southern Kurds, capturing the famous fortress of Sermaj, of which the ruins are to be seen at the present day near Behistun, and reducing the province of Shahrizor with its capital city now marked by the great mound of Yassin Teppeh.
The most flourishing period of Kurdish power was probably during the 12th century, when the great Saladin, who belonged to the Rawendi branch of the Hadabani tribe, founded the Ayyubite dynasty of Syria, and Kurdish chieftain hips were established, not only to the east and west of the Kurdistan mountains, but as far as Khorasan upon one side and Egypt and Yemen on the other.
During the Mongol and Tatar domination of western Asia the Kurds in the mountains remained for the most part passive, yielding a reluctant obedience to the provincial governors of the plains. When Sultan Selim I, after defeating Shah Ismail I in 1514, annexed Armenia and Kurdistan, he entrusted the organization of the conquered territories to Idris, the historian, who was a Kurd of Bitlis. Idris found Kurdistan bristling with castles, held by hereditary tribal chiefs of Kurd, Arab, and Armenian descent, who were practically independent, and passed their time in tribal warfare or in raiding the agricultural population. He divided the territory into sanjaks or districts, and, making no attempt to interfere with the principle of heredity, installed the local chiefs as governors. He also resettled the rich pastoral country between Erzerum and Erivan, which had lain waste since the passage of Timur, with Kurds from the Hakkari and Bohtan districts.
The system of administration introduced by Idris remained unchanged until the close of the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29. But the Kurds, owing to the remoteness of their country from the capital and the decline of Turkey, had greatly increased in influence and power, and had spread westwards over the country as far as Angora.
After the war the Kurds attempted to free themselves from Turkish control, and in 1834, after the Bedirkhan clan uprising, it became necessary to reduce them to subjection. Reshid Pasha did this. The principal towns were strongly garrisoned, and Turkish governors replaced many of the Kurd beys. A rising under Bedr Khan Bey in 1843 was firmly repressed, and after the Crimean War the Turks strengthened their hold on the country. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 was followed by the attempt of Sheikh Obaidullah in 1880 - 1881 to found an independent Kurd principality under the protection of Turkey. The attempt, at first encouraged by the Porte, as a reply to the projected creation of an Armenian state under the suzerainty of Russia, collapsed after Obaidullah's raid into Persia, when various circumstances led the central government to reassert its supreme authority. Until the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29 there had been little hostile feeling between the Kurds and the Armenians, and as late as 1877 - 1878 the mountaineers of both races had co-existed fairly well together. Both suffered from Turkey, both dreaded Russia. But the national movement amongst the Armenians, and its encouragement by Russia after the latest war, gradually aroused race hatred and fanaticism.
In 1891 the activity of the Armenian Committees induced the Porte to strengthen the position of the Kurds by raising a body of Kurdish irregular cavalry, which was well armed and called Hamidieh after the Sultan Abd-ul-Hamid II. The opportunities thus offered for plunder and the gratification of race hatred brought out the worst qualities of the Kurds. Minor disturbances constantly occurred, and were soon followed by the massacre of Armenians at Sasun and other places, 1894 - 1896, in which the Kurds took an active part.
This article uses text from 1911 *Encyclopedia Britannica*.

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## Alan

This is my opinion on the Origin of Kurds.

The first Kurds and Name Giver are definitive the Gutians. Later this Gutians mixed with the Hurrians.

Scythians and Medes mixed up with the Gutians. So the Carduchi arose. Which according to "Xenephon" spoke Scythian and Median Dialects believed in the Hurrian Sky God Teshub and according to "Arshak Safrastian" had Gutians among them which were presented as Scythians and Medes in Corduene .

So in my opinion

first Kurds = Gutians

Gutians + Hurrians = neo Gutians Gutium, karda

Neo Gutians + Scythians, Medes, Alans = Karduchi 

Of course there were also other Groups which left their mark, like the Cimmerians etc.


But the main and most important Groups are the above.

Gutians being Name Giver.
Scythians, Alans and Medes language giving
And Hurrians being also a native Group living in this area and most probably uniting with Gutians against Assyrians

Between the Gutians are usually brought in contact with the Tocharians. I do not know if we can trust this. But also according to new Studies everything seems like the first Indo Europeans were pastors and moved out of West Asia. Gutians maybe were one of the first and most archaic Indo European Groups. Which mixed with the back migrating Scythians/Alans/Medes. But this is only a Theory.

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## iapetoc

well by what I know the population of Kurds looks like is European origin,

could they be connected with the Skudra case???????

in an older language, Surdi means soldier.

I mean that were balcanic people that follow Darius A at 512 Bc??
and not connected with local population before 500 Bc.

simply I know that their types of I2 is I2a2, 

remember Kurds are wearing the Causia as the Makedonians.
in older photos we see that, 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kausia


Skudra is known that went very west, Kurds are Persian Speaking, 
just wandering if they were Balcanic people that were moved by Darius A 

the abone is not certain simply it is an thought that connects the Persian language, and European Y-Dna

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## Alan

> http://en.ostan-kd.ir/Default.aspx?TabId=51
> 
> In 1891 the activity of the Armenian Committees induced the Porte to strengthen the position of the Kurds by raising a body of Kurdish irregular cavalry, which was well armed and called Hamidieh after the Sultan Abd-ul-Hamid II. The opportunities thus offered for plunder and the gratification of race hatred brought out the worst qualities of the Kurds. Minor disturbances constantly occurred, and were soon followed by the massacre of Armenians at Sasun and other places, 1894 - 1896, in which the Kurds took an active part.
> This article uses text from 1911 *Encyclopedia Britannica*.


well this overview is very one-sided if you ask me. The Reason why some Kurdish Groups were involved in this massacres is that the Armenians tried to build a "greater Armenia" with Russian help in Regions which were even dominantly kurdish. There are more than enough evidences showing that the Armenians tried a ethnic cleansing by killing innocent non Armenian People in Eastern Anatolia. We also have maps dawn by German and French. showing that 90% of the Regions claimed by nationalistic Armenian Groups were not even half Armenian some even less than 10% before the Genocide. Armenians were massacred that is true but they were not that innocent.

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## archaiocapilos

> This proportion of haplogroups looks even more European than what is found in Greece or South Italy ! (more hg I and R, less hg E and J)


Maciamo you consider all haplogroup R European and all haplogroup E African that's why Kurds seem more ''European'' to you. But the majority of E in Greece and South Italy is by large of European origin (Balkanic) while the majority of R in Kurds is of Asian origin...

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## iapetoc

> well this overview is very one-sided if you ask me. The Reason why some Kurdish Groups were involved in this massacres is that the Armenians tried to build a "greater Armenia" with Russian help in Regions which were even dominantly kurdish. There are more than enough evidences showing that the Armenians tried a ethnic cleansing by killing innocent non Armenian People in Eastern Anatolia. We also have maps dawn by German and French. showing that 90% of the Regions claimed by nationalistic Armenian Groups were not even half Armenian some even less than 10% before the Genocide. Armenians were massacred that is true but they were not that innocent.


well that is not true,
cause Kurds follow Topal Osman in the Rum Genocide,
the numbers and the stories, say that Turks respect in majority the leaving Greeks, But Topal Osman and Kurds just slain for Gold,
I have read many stories,
In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,
I know that cause a friend of Mine was a 'deli' that time,

Kurds even today have a strange kind of thinking, Great warriors but never united, they served whoever pay them, until 1920, I don't know today.

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## Alan

> well that is not true,
> cause Kurds follow Topal Osman in the Rum Genocide,
> the numbers and the stories, say that Turks respect in majority the leaving Greeks, But Topal Osman and Kurds just slain for Gold,
> I have read many stories,
> In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
> the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,
> I know that cause a friend of Mine was a 'deli' that time,
> 
> Kurds even today have a strange kind of thinking, Great warriors but never united, they served whoever pay them, until 1920, I don't know today.


My Point wasnt to prove that Kurds took not part in killing Armenians because some Kurds did of course. What I am trying to tell is that Armenians tried to invade Eastern Anatolia and establish a new "greater Armenia" this is a Fact. If you dont support this than please show me evidences which speak against this.
Here is a map of 1920 showing the Regions claimed by Armenian nationalists. interestingly even parts of the Pontus which belong to the Laz and Pontus Greeks was claimed by them. 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Asia_Minor.png

map showing Armenian Population in 1896 (before the Genocide)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_map_1896.jpg



I myself know that most Kurds were some kind of Mercenaries and I also know that the Kurds were mainly used as Janissaries in conquering the Balkans many Kurds were also settled in Greece at that time. It is true that Kurds were (are ) warrior like and were never really under control of any Empire. I know books were it is said how even the Turks didnt dare to enter the kurdish areas. I know a book were a Traveler describes how the Turks, Armenians and Laz were hiding in fear of kurdish cavalryman.
however today the Kurds especially the younger generation has changed and the unity is by far bigger.

This isnt the problem i do accept that. But what i dont accept is the armenians are shown too innocent. there was indeed an attack by Armenians on Kurds in hope they could establish a new greater Armenia. I have lost some of my ancestors to this.



> In fact there a story about a pasa who order his soldiers to protect Greeks from Kurds that wanted land and Gold,
> the story goes that Kurds were the great Mercenairies of Turks, and the tribal chieftain took a lot of Gold to made the massacres,


I wonder from where this story is. Never heard about a pasha who tried to protect the Greeks from Kurds who slaughtered them. I hope not next someone will claim Kurds occupied the Pontus and driven out the Greeks.

between another interesting similarity between ancient Scythian tribes and Kurds is the love for Gold.

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## Alan

> Maciamo you consider all haplogroup R European and all haplogroup E African that's why Kurds seem more ''European'' to you. But the majority of E in Greece and South Italy is by large of European origin (Balkanic) while the majority of R in Kurds is of Asian origin...


Agree and disagree. Haplogroup J and E belong as much to Europe as R but there is no European or Asiatic J like you claim. The J among Greeks are J2a and J2b this are also the only subgroups found in the Near East. And there is almost no difference among the R in the Middle East and the one in Greece exception some in South Asia.

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## archaiocapilos

> Agree and disagree. Haplogroup J and E belong as much to Europe as R but there is no European or Asiatic J like you claim. The J among Greeks are J2a and J2b this are also the only subgroups found in the Near East. And there is almost no difference among the R in the Middle East and the one in Greece exception some in South Asia.


But Kurds have as much J1 as Ashkenazi or Shefardi Jews nowhere near European people (for example Greeks have 2-3%, S.Italians have around 4% while Kurds have 15%). They also have a lot of Central Asian haplogroups like P,Q,N wich do not exist in Southern Europe. And by the way there are indeed diffences in haplogroup R in Middle East and Southern Europe ( Greeks have sub-clades R1b1b2a1ad (U-152)= 4.2% and R1a1a1a7= 3.8% wich are definetely of European origin and together total around 8.0% while Kurds have none of them.

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## Alan

> But Kurds have as much J1 as Ashkenazi or Shefardi Jews nowhere near European people (for example Greeks have 2-3%, S.Italians have around 4% while Kurds have 15%). They also have a lot of Central Asian haplogroups like P,Q,N wich do not exist in Southern Europe. And by the way there are indeed diffences in haplogroup R in Middle East and Southern Europe ( Greeks have sub-clades R1b1b2a1ad (U-152)= 4.2% and R1a1a1a7= 3.8% wich are definetely of European origin and together total around 8.0% while Kurds have none of them.


Wait a minute please. Just to make this clear. Here is no discussion about Kurds being European or not. Dont come up with something what isnt on discussion.

Before you make any statements do it with Sources. 15% J1 among Kurds according to which Study? 11,6 % J1 were found among Iraqi Kurds and 0% among Anatolian Kurds but this is probably higher cause some of the F* were not defined and would probably come out as J1. So I assume 3-4% J1 among Anatolian Kurds.

Anatolian Kurds with 15-20 million Population are by far more representative than 5 million Iraqi Kurds. so you come hardly over 5% J1 and beside that the high majority of J1 among Kurds belongs to J1* and is related to that found among Caucasus populations. 

The P you are referring to is probably P1(R2a), because P* is undefined R* or Q ( in kurdish case probably R), and R2(P1) is around 5%. But R2 was recently also found in Slavic Groups and Iberia. And it is a very Young Haplogroup probably not older than 1- or 2000 Years.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

About Q, how much do the Kurds have? Cause I couldnt find any study showing Q among Kurds. So I assume it might probably be around 0-3% and the frequency is not bigger as among some European groups. So not worth to be mentioned.




Please no baseless statements.

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## archaiocapilos

In a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia:
P = 10.0 %
J1 = 11.2 %
H = 2.4 %
K = 4.8 %
Source: Flores et.al (2005)
I don't know if P is Q, R2 or P* but all of these haplogroups are non existant in Europe. Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are from Anatolia or Iraq.

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## iapetoc

> My Point wasnt to prove that Kurds took not part in killing Armenians because some Kurds did of course. What I am trying to tell is that Armenians tried to invade Eastern Anatolia and establish a new "greater Armenia" this is a Fact. If you dont support this than please show me evidences which speak against this.
> Here is a map of 1920 showing the Regions claimed by Armenian nationalists. interestingly even parts of the Pontus which belong to the Laz and Pontus Greeks was claimed by them. 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Asia_Minor.png
> 
> map showing Armenian Population in 1896 (before the Genocide)
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_map_1896.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the area is near Ordu, yes there were many, not one, I will not anounce names due to respect, but in many areas Turk pasa protect evacuated Rum from thieves and murderers, while in other they ordered a massacre,

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## Goga

..........

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## Alan

> In a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia:
> P = 10.0 %
> J1 = 11.2 %
> H = 2.4 %
> K = 4.8 %
> Source: Flores et.al (2005)
> I don't know if P is Q, R2 or P* but all of these haplogroups are non existant in Europe. Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are from Anatolia or Iraq.



Flores at al.

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm






> Haplogroup J1 is >10 % in Kurds wethere they are* from Anatolia or Iraq*.






> Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation *in Jordan*


Youa are using a Study on some kurdish refugees from Jordan(originally from Iraq) to prove your point?
Is this meant to be a joke?

There are Studies about Kurds but half of them are about refugees or diaspora Kurds from Turkmenistan which are mixed with the native Populations.







> NO, 251 Kurds from all over the world. From Anatolia to Turkmenistan. Turkmenistan is not in the Middle East.
> 
> Flores et al. (2005) is a study about Jordan. Flores et.al (2005) 'recycled' (made-up) samples of Kurds from: (7) Wells et al. (2001); (13) Nebel et al. (2001); (18) Nasidze et al. (2005) and Cruciani et al. (2004) without any correlation with each other. I can't find any J1 in one of these used studies. He took E from a Turkish population from Cruciani et al. (2004) and without any recalculation of the total population, I don't know why I is so low. I see many huge errors in Flores et.al (2005). Almost everything is made-up. It's a very strange and obscure practice of science. And a sample size of 251 is made-up (wrong) too. This is more abracadabra and manipulation of data than science! I'm waiting for a more credible source, please.



Thank you very much exactly my Point. He basically uses all Studies on Kurds without correlation. You cant use a study about Kurds from Jordan or Georgia which are in Number under 50 thousand or Turkmenistan in far diaspora and use the samples in the same weight as samples of a Study about Kurds from their mainlands with a population over 30-40 million. This is amateurish or just a manipulation.

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## Alan

> the area is near Ordu, yes there were many, not one, I will not anounce names due to respect, but in many areas Turk pasa protect evacuated Rum from thieves and murderers, while in other they ordered a massacre,


 
well than i apologize for what some Kurdish groups did in interests of others.. And i am also sorry for what happened to the native Armenians. Even if some Groups among them behaved in a too nationalistic way the civilians did not deserve to be slaughtered but this unfortunately is how the world sometimes works. The innocent People pay for their leaders mistakes.

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## archaiocapilos

In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds included):
P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
P* (Q?)= 5.3%
F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.

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## iapetoc

> well than i apologize for what some Kurdish groups did in interests of others.. And i am also sorry for what happened to the native Armenians. Even if some Groups among them behaved in a too nationalistic way the civilians did not deserve to be slaughtered but this unfortunately is how the world sometimes works. The innocent People pay for their leaders mistakes.


in fact I believe that Kurdish people without offense have just few years (20-30) of realizing their nationality, and politic systems,

No need to apologise for anyone, it was the time's system and way of life, i can not expand farther cause then it will religious, 
simply some go to heaven by being nice to other persons, and others by killing. 
it was logical since mountain poor people many times need to move or to fight for income, and the religious connection among kurds and Turks was stronger,
I believe that still kurds are divided to phatrias and sometime fight among them, but they are more open minded, since the last years they can elect some politicians and can take part in the common of the state.
the rest is up to them and their 'common'
same thing could happened different if war went different,so no need to apologise, just think and realise what I am talking (divided phatrias)

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## Goga

> In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds include:





> P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
> P* (Q?)= 5.3%
> F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
> Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.


No, Kurds have no Q nor N!

Kurdish P is P-M45. P-M45 can be Q or R, but Kurdish P-M45 is more likely R1-something, because they didn't find any Q in Kurds. http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf ---} Kurdish P = P-M45.

Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is in fact an error sign and can be everything. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf


Of course have Kurds some J1. I believe they have that from the Akkadians (Assyrians), Babylonians (Chaldeans) and Jews. These folks are Southern Mesopotamians or Northern Semites! Kurds have been living next to them for millennia. Northern Semites were the civilization builders, great folks!

According many people only some J1 types are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic. And J1 is very common in the Caucasus. But I think that all types of J1 and E are Semitic / Afro-Asiatic.

Northern Kurds don't have so much J1, so I think that southern Kurds have J1 from the northern Semites (southern Mesopotamians) and not from the people of Caucasus.  
Kurds have less J2+J1+E than the Greeks do. And Kurds do also have more I(2a).
Greeks are more mixed with the Semitic sea people and Semitic Levantines than Kurds with the southern Mesopotamian northern Semites.

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## archaiocapilos

> No, Kurds have no Q nor N!
> 
> Kurdish P is P-M45. P-M45 can be Q or R, but Kurdish P-M45 is more likely R1-something, because they didn't find any Q in Kurds. http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf ---} Kurdish P = P-M45.
> 
> Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is in fact an error sign and can be everything. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.
> 
> http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


 The Sea People could be everything but Semites, most propably they where Greek and Anatolian peoples. J2 is not Semitic since the original Semites (Arabs) have very little J2 while Indo-European peoples (Indo-Iranians, Greeks, Anatolians, Italians) have a lot. The only subclade of E that is related to Semites is E-M123. But anyway I think that haplogroups are not exclusive to any ancient population so you can't say that J1 is Semitic or R1 is Indo-European, you can only connect haplogroups with geographic areas.

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## archaiocapilos

Haplogroup P-M45 is definetely not R1 in Kurds because R1 was tested in the same paper so it is either P* or Q

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## Alan

> In a sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds included):
> P1 (R2a)= 6.1%
> P* (Q?)= 5.3%
> F (F*,J1 or H)= 10.5%
> Now since haplogroup H is only 1-2% in Kurds I assume that the rest is J1 and it is around 10% so your statement that Kurds have only 4-5% of J1 is wrong eitherway.


It makes no sense to go on explaining you something while you have no interests in understanding it. F* is the father of all known Caucasian Haplogroups ( I, J, T, G, R, L, N, Q...) And you assume that F* has to be J1 because... exactly because of what?

While the F segments among Kurds are most probably some R and I,J* types you assume of course that the 10,5% F* among Kurds can only be 1-2% H (surprise a Sinti-Roma Haplogroup) and J1. This is pure provocation not more.

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## archaiocapilos

> It makes no sense to go on explaining you something for what your logic seems not enough. F* is the father of all known Caucasian Haplogroups ( I, J, T, G, R, L, N, Q...) And you assume that F* has to be J1 because... exactly because of what?
> 
> While the F segments among Kurds are most probably some R and I,J* types you assume of course that the 10,5% F* among Kurds can only be 1-2% H (surprise a Gypsy Haplogroup) and J1. This is pure provocation not more.


 Dear friend I have nothing against Kurds. I assume that F* is either J1 or H because J2,I,G and K* were tested so F* must be J1, H or paragroup F. The same applies for haplogroup P*.

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## Alan

> Dear friend I have nothing against Kurds. I assume that F* is either J1 or H because J2,I,G and K* were tested so F* must be J1, H or paragroup F. The same applies for haplogroup P*.


This is not True Nasidze has tested J1 among all of his Studies so far why shouldnt he do this on the kurdish samples too?
And who tells you that if a Haplogroup already was tested, that the other F segments cant come out as G, J2 I or K*? I have never heard about such a rule could you please provide some sources for this "fact"?. Even if we assume this is the case still some subclades of G and I were not tested like G*. I have seen a Kurd with I1a on the net with crusader origin probably. 

And we cant go after your assuming that F* is mainly J1 like I mentioned. 3-5% of it might be J1 but assuming that most or all of it is J1 is simply fantasy work and has nothing to do with scientific facts because very well some of the F* could easily come out as N while we know some N are not rare in East Anatolia. And you simply misinterpreted the F segments among Kurds as H and J1 ? You cant sell us something as a fact while it is not clear. This is simply manipulation and pseudo science just like how you tried to sell us a study about Jordanian Kurds as a Study about Anatolian Kurds. So why should I take your words for Real?

And before you start to post again in a manipulative way you should first take in account what some people did answer you.




> Kurdish F* is an archaic F-M89. F-M89 is* in fact an error sign and can be everything*. But Kurdish F-M89 is more likely I2a, J2, G2a or R-something (most common haplogroups among Kurds) . http://www.jogg.info/12/Pitfalls.pdf ---} everything about F-M89.

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## archaiocapilos

> This is not True Nasidze has tested J1 among all of his Studies so far why shouldnt he do this on the kurdish samples too?
> And who tells you that if a Haplogroup already was tested, that the other F segments cant come out as G, J2 I or K*? I have never heard about such a rule could you please provide some sources for this "fact"?. Even if we assume this is the case still some subclades of G and I were not tested like G*. I have seen a Kurd with I1a on the net with crusader origin probably. 
> 
> And we cant go after your assuming that F* is mainly J1 like I mentioned. 3-5% of it might be J1 but assuming that most or all of it is J1 is simply fantasy work and has nothing to do with scientific facts because very well some of the F* could easily come out as N while we know some N are not rare in East Anatolia. And you simply misinterpreted the F segments among Kurds as H and J1 ? You cant sell us something as a fact while it is not clear. This is simply manipulation and pseudo science just like how you tried to sell us a study about Jordanian Kurds as a Study about Anatolian Kurds. So why should I take your words for Real?
> 
> And before you start to post again in your provocative and manipulative way you should first take in account what some people did answer you.


I did read what they have answered me but it really sounds more logical that F is J1 because in that particular region (south-east Anatolia) there is a lot of J1. I mean all surrounding people have J1 (Turks = 10%, Syrians = 20-25%, Armenians = 6-7%) but you suppose that F could be everything (I, J2, N, R) except J1 in Kurds, could you explain why? 
I'm not a geneticist but I thought that you can't belong to haplogroup J2 without belonging in M172, am I wrong?

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## archaiocapilos

I mean that everyone who is positive for R1-M173 must be positive for K-M9 too, is that a mistake. If it is I stand corrected and I appologize to you

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## archaiocapilos

But I'm not wrong and you know it. In the Nasidze paper J1 was not tested, I don't know why. You must understand that if someone is negative for I-M170 than he can't be positive for I1a and if he is negative for J2-M172 he can't be positive for J2a4b (at least in most cases). What that paper you quoted says is that some of haplogroup F* could be asigned to some deeper subclades of haplogroups J2, I or G that do not have the original mutations of those haplogroups (in the case that all haplogroups that descend from F where tested) but in the case of Kurds it is most PROPABLE J1 which was not tested at all. Is this so difficult for you to understand?

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## Alan

> But I'm not wrong and you know it. In the Nasidze paper J1 was not tested, I don't know why. You must understand that if someone is negative for I-M170 than he can't be positive for I1a and if he is negative for J2-M172 he can't be positive for J2a4b (at least in most cases). What that paper you quoted says is that some of haplogroup F* could be asigned to some deeper subclades of haplogroups J2, I or G that do not have the original mutations of those haplogroups (in the case that all haplogroups that descend from F where tested) but in the case of Kurds it is most *PROPABLE* J1 which was not tested at all. Is this so difficult for you to understand?


This is not a Rule. This is only what you assume. And out of your assumed probability you make a fact by not even taking in account some of the F* might be N and some other might be G*. instead of saying ~5% J1 ~2,5% N and ~4% G* for example, you assume and make out of it all J1 and H?






> *could be asigned to some deeper subclades of haplogroups J2, I or G that do not have the original mutations of those haplogroups*


This is very much possible didnt some other Studies found J2* in very high diversity on Anatolia? And you now confirmed it is possible to be some subgroups so how do you come to the idea, to give us ,"f* being J1" as a fact?

We basically dont know what F* is some of it is very archaic according to Nasidzes. 

And could you please explain me why you used a study about Kurds from Jordan to point out J1 among Anatolian Kurds?


This is my only problem I have with your methods. We dont know what F* really is, but you assume that most of it has to be J1 and make a fact out of it. A assume doesent give you the right to make "facts".

I for example confirmed that it is very possible that some of the F* might be J1 it could be 3-5% maybe 6-8% also possible only 2%. I cant know this thats why I assumed something like half of the F* being J1.


And beside that like Goga mentioned. The F* values found among Kurds are M89.

Page Five

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf


Here more about M89




> Haplogroup* F-M89 is a “default” haplogroup potentially comprising several lineages.*[5] *Originally it was believed all M89+ men would be found to belong to F descendant haplogroups G-T*, but an increasing number of men have continued to test positive only for the mutation that defines F.[6] *The F* haplogroup is paraphyletic and rare in most regions.*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA)

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## archaiocapilos

> This is not a Rule. This is only what you assume. And out of your assumed probability you make a fact by not even taking in account some of the F* might be N and some other might be G*. instead of saying ~5% J1 ~2,5% N and ~4% G* for example, you assume and make out of it all J1 and H?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very much possible didnt some other Studies found J2* in very high diversity on Anatolia? And you now confirmed it is possible to be some subgroups so how do you come to the idea, to give us ,"f* being J1" as a fact?
> 
> We basically dont know what F* is some of it is very archaic according to Nasidzes. 
> 
> ...


Did you even read the paper of Flores et.al? Because if you had you would know that allthough it's main interest is about Jordanians, it uses older studies for the other populations. In the case of Kurds it used samples from Anatolia, Turkmenistan and Iraq not from Jordan. Any way I'm not here to argue with you, I just wanted to correct Maciamo's claim that Kurds are more European than Greeks or South Italians which is nonesence. I have seen a lot of Kurds and they look totally Middle Eastern, more so than Anatolian Turks or even Lebanese. They look closer to Iraqis than any other population near them

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## Goga

..........

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## Thrace

Puting Kurds on a Global Similarity map based on autosomal analysis would put them as far from Europe as the Chinese...pointless to argue on Kurds being more European, nonsense. Just a sole Y-DNA cannot constiute who is Europena, Asian or ME.

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## Alan

> Puting Kurds on a Global Similarity map based on autosomal analysis would put them as far from Europe as the Chinese...pointless to argue on Kurds being more European, nonsense. Just a sole Y-DNA cannot constiute who is Europena, Asian or ME.





> Wait a minute please. Just to make this clear. Here is no discussion about Kurds being European or not. Dont come up with something what isnt on discussion.


You simply failed the whole subject of this Thread. Sometimes I believe some People are only here on search for something against their boredom.




> Puting Kurds on a Global Similarity map based on autosomal analysis would put them as far from Europe as the Chinese


 Putting you in the category of serious writers would be as logical as using cockroaches as Pets. Seriously now for that comparison you would win the "nobel prize"  :Laughing:  

The education level of a usual Turkish member.

Actually I dont care much about this but its fun to see you fail with your poor tries.




> Iraqi Kurds show close relationships to European populations. A closer examination (Supp.
> Figure S4B) shows that Kurds and eastern European Daghestani populations (Urkarah
> and Stalskoe) are clearly separated from western European populations....
> 
> We also found that Iraqi Kurds have a closer
> relationship to European populations than Asian populations....


http://209.85.48.16/4802/123/0/p1008...genotyping.pdf

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## Alan

> Did you even read the paper of Flores et.al? Because if you had you would know that allthough it's main interest is about Jordanians, it uses older studies for the other populations. In the case of Kurds it used samples from Anatolia, Turkmenistan and Iraq not from Jordan. Any way I'm not here to argue with you, I just wanted to correct Maciamo's claim that Kurds are more European than Greeks or South Italians which is nonesence. I have seen a lot of Kurds and they look totally Middle Eastern, more so than Anatolian Turks or even Lebanese. They look closer to Iraqis than any other population near them


1.Thats the usual Opinion People get from reading to much nonsense on pseudo scientific websites. This says much about your knowledge and the Rest of your personality.

2. The Kurds living in Libanon belong to the physically most Caucasian and European looking individuals.

3. like Goga mentioned your Flores et. al. uses the samples of all Groups in same weight. This is amateurish and manipulative. Which serious scientist gives samples from outside the Middle East and from much smaller Population as much importance as Studies about Kurds from their Homelands. Your out of your mind if you take such nonsense serious. Your whole arguments are based on manipulative nonsense.

The physical appearance is based on solar latitude, living conditions etc. and can change from generation to generation drastically this is called Epigenetic. The Physical appearance has nothing to do with Genetic. Still I highly doubt that you have ever seen more than a few Kurds and assume your whole knowledge is based on what you have red from some pseudo scientific websites mainly visit by anti Kurdish members. Like Goga wrote most of Greeks and western(Thracian) Turks are basically Europeanized Mesopotamians and North African/ levantine Semites belonging to Haplogroups of J2b and E1b* (Minoan, Phoenician, Berber and Egyptian) and Indo Europeans. While the majority of Kurds are indeed Indo Europeans and Caucasians (I2a, J2a, R1a, R1b, G2a) living in bad conditions. So simple as that.

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## Thrace

alan as an idiot Kurd even you should see that tested Kurds land between Pakistan and Dagestan (your own reference) so put a lid on it and move on...Caucasus/Middle East genetic component, which has dispersing all the way to North India, now if you read the study you will see that in evolutionary terms one population might be closer to one continent or the other, but in that same perspective we all come from Africa. Be useful show us where you land in your own autosomal Global Similarity so we can have a discussion.

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## Alan

Turk (that should be insult enough) do me and yourself a favor and dont play a gooder and change the subject every time you fail on the old. We are talking about Genetics and not "Races".

Your claim




> Puting *Kurds* on a Global Similarity map based on autosomal analysis would put them as far from Europe as the *Chinese*.


My Game






Only a intelligent Turk isnt able to see the huge gab between Iraqi Kurdish and Pakistani samples.

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## archaiocapilos

The physical appearance is based on solar latitude, living conditions etc. and can change from generation to generation drastically this is called Epigenetic. The Physical appearance has nothing to do with Genetic. Still I highly doubt that you have ever seen more than a few Kurds and assume your whole knowledge is based on what you have red from some pseudo scientific websites mainly visit by anti Kurdish members. Like Goga wrote most of Greeks and western(Thracian) Turks are basically Europeanized Mesopotamians and North African/ levantine Semites belonging to Haplogroups of J2b and E1b* (Minoan, Phoenician, Berber and Egyptian) and Indo Europeans. While the majority of Kurds are indeed Indo Europeans and Caucasians (I2a, J2a, R1a, R1b, G2a) living in bad conditions. So simple as that.[/QUOTE]

You are hillarious. I 'm not saying that Kurds look Middle Eastern because of their colour but because their facial charachteristics look Middle Eastern (facial structure does not change because of sun expose). Look at Ocalan he could be Sadam Huseins cousin!!! I have never met a felow Greek who looks like that.

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## Alan

> The physical appearance is based on solar latitude, living conditions etc. and can change from generation to generation drastically this is called Epigenetic. The Physical appearance has nothing to do with Genetic. Still I highly doubt that you have ever seen more than a few Kurds and assume your whole knowledge is based on what you have red from some pseudo scientific websites mainly visit by anti Kurdish members. Like Goga wrote most of Greeks and western(Thracian) Turks are basically Europeanized Mesopotamians and North African/ levantine Semites belonging to Haplogroups of J2b and E1b* (Minoan, Phoenician, Berber and Egyptian) and Indo Europeans. While the majority of Kurds are indeed Indo Europeans and Caucasians (I2a, J2a, R1a, R1b, G2a) living in bad conditions. So simple as that.





> You are hillarious. I 'm not saying that Kurds look Middle Eastern because of their colour but because their facial charachteristics look Middle Eastern (facial structure does not change because of sun expose). Look at Ocalan he could be Sadam Huseins cousin!!! I have never met a felow Greek who looks like that.


thanks and i give back the compliment your hilarious too.




> The physical appearance is based on solar latitude, *living conditions* etc.


Why is it so hard to get that a man working hard 12 hours the day under the sun will have different rundown facial features than a man working 8 hours a day sitting in front of a Computer. 

Are you trying to tell me that this Albanian man looks like this not because of the hard work he does under the sun but cause of his genetics?
(no he is not a Roma)
http://www.allmystery.de/dateien/pr2...Albaner.jpg?nc


Abdullah Öcalans mother is a Turk(men) his look comes probably from her cause he doesent have the sharper features of usual kurdish man.

http://www.omem.net/thumb/3501-erol-...waza-evine.jpg
http://www.medyaline.com/haberresim/...-resimleri.jpg

And like i mentioned this here is not about the phenotypes of some Groups and less about a compare between Kurds and Greeks cause of course it is obvious that Greeks are European and Kurds not. But ok if you insist that much to it.

Here are Greeks who look at least similar to him
http://www.bildkiste.de/cache/10/12/...he.JPG_595.jpg
http://www.fotoclub-rastatt.de/asset...p__Grieche.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumbla...42221Tl1R1.jpg
http://data5.blog.de/media/800/36438...9b64ce2_m.jpeg

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## Thrace

> Abdullah Öcalans mother is a Turk(men) his look comes probably from her cause he doesent have the sharper features of usual kurdish man. [/url]


Alan you are an idiot

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## iapetoc

> Alan you are an idiot


and you? 
who are you?

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## Alan

..............

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## Bodin

Alan your knowledge is great , but I have few coments. 1) Germans have never call themselves like that , that name is used by Romans and mean relative , because they first encounter with Germans was during conjoined attacks by Celts and Germans , and they writed" attacks by Celts and they relatives " , later that was used like a name for a Germanic nations 2)There is more reliable explanation of Sarmatian origins than that given by Herodotus( that they are descendants of Amazons and Scythians).Diodorus Siculus say that Scythians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 . 3)I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Tacitus say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians ( others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Sarmatian auxiliars - king Arthur) , Germany ( Serbs come on Balkans from river Elba-Laba , Sarland ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving - has nothing to do with Slavs . There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. 4)Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K*.
5) also Kurds do have more European genes than Greeks , atleast more IndoEuropean . There was comparing of HLA alels( A and B) amongs the nations of Mediteran , which shown that Greeks are geneticaly more similar to Etiopians than any other Mediteranean nation , especially nations Oromo,Fulani and Mossi. Theese do not aply on Macedonians and Creteans whose are in one group by similarity with Sardinians, Jews and Lebanons , whyle Greeks are i group with Etiopians , and third group are North Africans and West Europeans ( France , Italy , Spain , Portugal) .At the same time there is no conection between Greeks and other African nations . These similarity probably ocured due to some move of Etopians in to Greece after downfall of Nubian dinasty in Egipt , they havent enter the Crete because Minoian state was to strong . Antic Greeks use to believe that they religion and culture had come from Egipt. Dont get insulted some of my grenfathers few centuries ago meried some Greek girls so I also has some Greek blood.
My theory about haplogroup I is that it emerged in the aeria of Pamir in Tadjikistan and then gradualy moved toward the Europe . In Xingyang in China use to live nation of Yuezhi whose name is very similar to the name of Yazigi one of the Alan tribe, name Alan meen " one that live in stepes" .Today in Xingyang live Uygurs with 60% of R1a haplogroup and 33% of I haplogroup . 
Name of Guti (Gutians) is also very interesting - it is similar to name of Goths , Juts(inhabited England) and Masagets and Tisagets who formed Alans - probably egzonim .

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## Goga

Interesting. Maybe I evolved somewhere in West Kurdistan (east Anatolia) and migrated north into Russia via the Caucasus mountain range (and maybe into South Europe via Turkey).
J2 evolved somewhere in South Kurdistan and became a Mesopotamian haplogroup. J1 evolved in Central Kurdistan and migrated into 'the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula' = Arabistan.

Does this mean that Kurdistan was (and is) the 'Biblical Garden of Eden' !?!?

Maybe R1b, R1a and R2 evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because some R1a and R2 subclades in Caucasus are VERY old. But according to the mainstream scientists R somewhere from Central Asia and yes somewhere near Tadjikistan.

[img]http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1166/12345lc.jpg[/img]


12345lc.jpg

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## Alan

> Interesting. Maybe I evolved somewhere in West Kurdistan (east Anatolia) and migrated north into Russia via the Caucasus mountain range (and maybe into South Europe via Turkey).
> J2 evolved somewhere in South Kurdistan and became a Mesopotamian haplogroup. J1 evolved in Central Kurdistan and migrated into 'the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula' = Arabistan.
> 
> Does this mean that Kurdistan was (and is) the 'Biblical Garden of Eden' !?!?
> 
> Maybe R1b, R1a and R2 evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because some R1a and R2 subclades in Caucasus are VERY old. But according to the mainstream scientists R somewhere from Central Asia and yes somewhere near Tadjikistan.
> 
> http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1166/12345lc.jpg
> 
> ...


R2a* is the sister clade of R1a* and both definitely evolved in the same Region.
Either Central or West Asia. Just like R1a* Also R2a* has a larger range of Phenotypes. It has a moderate distribution in the Caucasus, South Asia, Central Asia, East Europe and among Jews.

Yezidi Kurds from Georgia are known to have very high frequency of R2a due founder effect. 44% I think Goga is also a Kurd from Georgia.

And they look like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ep6KRw6TkE


It has moderate frequency in India. It is found in high density among West Bengalis. 

They look like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtn20ykwO8w&feature=fvsr


and among Chechens ~15%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TL6V4JVtic



The original R2 carrier probably looked very similar to the original R1 carrier. But moving in different Regions of the World they mixed with the locals.

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## Goga

Yes, I (an Yezidi Kurd) was born in the USSR, Tbilisi (Georgia).

According to this fella they found some R2a in South Caucasus in the Trialeti culture (Georgia). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture.


"_He discovered that the Armenian R2a MRCA fit into the "upper end" of the Trialeti culture (2200/2000-1500 B.C.), which was a continuation of the preceding Kura-Araxes culture. Trialeti cultural elements include Kurgan-elite burials with gold artifacts, four-wheeled wagons and bronze weaponry. As far as my Google search revealed, the Kura-Araxes culture also featured Kurgan-style burials but they seem to have been more commonplace in Trialeti."_

I've got from http://r2dna.org/index.php?topic=247.0


R2a was part of the Aryan (proto-Iranic, Sarmatians, Scythians, Medes) folks...

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## Alan

very interesting this explains much. I never doubted the idea that R2a belonged to the Kurgan-Makyop-Kura araxes culture.

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## Alan

> Alan your knowledge is great , but I have few coments. 1) Germans have never call themselves like that....


Very interesting. I agree with many of your thesis but I dont agree that Scythians were Slavic because it is very well known that they definitely belonged to the Iranic language family. However we can surely assume that many of South Russians have absorbed Scythians.

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## Goga

> very interesting this explains much. I never doubted the idea that R2a belonged to the Kurgan-Makyop-Kura araxes culture.


Yes, incredible isn't it ? The gold objects in the Trialeti 'kurgans' were similar to those found in Kurdistan.

"_A second culture in the Caucasus is that of the Trialeti People located in western Georgia and existing in the first century of the second half of the second millennium BC. Kurgans (burial mounds) were excavated revealing rich pottery with new pottery forms and a broad usage of gold. The gold is similar to that found in Iran and Iraq and some archaeologists see the Trialeti Culture as the second wave of diffusion of Near East populations; however since no burial mounds have been uncovered in Georgia or Armenia, Alexeev concludes that the Trialeti Culture is similar to the Kura-Araxes Culture_."

http://www.drummingnet.com/alekseev/...rVIIPart2.html


This is true science and not abracadabra Hollywood fantasy!!!

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## Bodin

> Very interesting. I agree with many of your thesis but I dont agree that Scythians were Slavic because it is very well known that they definitely belonged to the Iranic language family. However we can surely assume that many of South Russians have absorbed Scythians.


I think I havent said that Scythians were Slavic , if I did it was mistake,sorry , I meant to say that Slavs are mainly descendants of Scythians and nations conquered by them . I think I also said that Neuri was among ancestors of Slavs , that was mistake to , Neuri are probably ancestors of Balti peoples ( Lithuanians, Latvians , Mazuri , Prussi/ Borussians ,... ) . Thanks for answering .

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## sonici

People who say themselves as "Turkic" and who have R DNA: They have Kurdified Turkic ancestry, also I don't believe that "Kurds is a race-tribe" anyway..R DNA is Turanian-Turkic DNA, Turkic people have R DNA too. "Kurd" name is Persian origin such as "Azeri" name, how Azeri people have Turkic origin people.. Kurds have too..I'm Turkic Cuman from Turkey..

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## Alan

> People who say themselves as "Turkic" and who have R DNA: They have Kurdified Turkic ancestry, also I don't believe that "Kurds is a race-tribe" anyway..R DNA is Turanian-Turkic DNA, Turkic people have R DNA too. "Kurd" name is Persian origin such as "Azeri" name, how Azeri people have Turkic origin people.. Kurds have too..I'm Turkic Cuman from Turkey..


Did you know that the very name "Kur/Kurd" is allot more ancient and that some people as far as in Sibiria who still speak an Iranic language call themselves Kurds.

Did you also know that some of the very first Turkic groups used to call themselves Kurd and their country Kurdistan?

The Bashkirs, which is simply a corrupted version of Bashkur(d)s and means the "Royal"(Bash= the head/leader) Sons (Kur= sons). The country of the Bashkirs is called by themselves... you name it, BashKurdistan



The word "Kurd" is so widespread throughout anciant Iranic (and later Turkic) homeland, If anything it seems Turk is derived from the name Kurd.

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## Alan

The Armenian language is descend of Phrygian they came from Central Anatolia. Armenians are relatively late arrivels compared to Iranic groups, so are the Turkic tribes.

If you keep throwing with nonlogical statements around without providing any sources, you will be reported, because this is considered as spam.

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## Alan

> How do you explain the Artuqids (and other eastern anatolian beyliks) they are native eastern Anatolians ! they are native who dont come from iran



Artuqids and other Ottoman beyliks are roughly several hundred centuries old. Medes, Cimmerians, Persians, Mitanni all those Indo-Iranian groups are roughly 2-4 thousand years present in "Eastern Anatolia". how the heck are Artuqids and other Ottoman/Seljuk beyliks natives? In which Fantasy world.

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## Goga

Hittites, Luwians etc. were neither Iranic nor proto-Iranic. Also, Kurds (one of the oldest people on earth) are natives of their homeland Kurdistan. Kurdish verifying roots are dating back to the Sumerian times. Kurdish native (*Solar*) religion has direct links with the ancient religion of the Sumerians. Kurds are modern day 'Iranic' people. Their ancient Iranic ancestors were the 'Iranic' Medes, Mitanni and Kassites. Kurdish language is also very close to the ancient Iranic languages of Kurdistan. And the ancient ancestors of the Medes, Mitanni and Kassites were people like Sumerians and Gutians. Kurds have a very ancient history of 10000 years old, Kurdish native religion is thousands of years old. How old is Turkic history? Only 1000 years old?

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## Blood of Prosara

> Haplogroups can be a sign of features but do not have direct contact with Phenotypes. The Kurds with light Hair, from my observation go more in a "slavic" than German direction. light hair in the Childhood is nothing uncommon in the whole Western Asian Region. And they are genetically not different from those with Black Hair. So stop separating them from other Kurds by calling them "White Kurds" I don´´t like such comments.


Indeed, phenotypes can show great varieties, even between direct family members. For example, my father's hair is light brown and his eyes light gray, and I have dark hair and darker green eyes. This is common in both major haplogroups I2 Din and R1a.

----------

