# Humanities & Anthropology > Philosophy >  Religion vs Politics

## Viberg

Today, is there any church that has seperated themselves from the pursuit of pushing the political discourse of the day?

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## Sile

> Today, is there any church that has seperated themselves from the pursuit of pushing the political discourse of the day?


Any Secular country should ensure that religious groups have no say in politics.............you can have religious freedom as an individual but *not* as a group/association........follow these rules and you have peace

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## Salento

> Any Secular country should ensure that religious groups have no say in politics.............you can have religious freedom as an individual but *not* as a group/association........follow these rules and you have peace


And Governments should make no laws to restrict religious freedom either. :)

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## Sile

> And Governments should make no laws to restrict religious freedom either. :)


China are pushing for religious freedom for the individual while destroying organised group religion.............first the burning of religious books, then will come the removal of ministers and I guess lastly places of prayer.

Basically you can pray as long it is by yourself

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## exceededminimumso..



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## Angela

> China are pushing for religious freedom for the individual while destroying organised group religion.............first the burning of religious books, then will come the removal of ministers and I guess lastly places of prayer.
> 
> Basically you can pray as long it is by yourself


Who are you or anyone else to decide that people can't pray in groups? What new kind of fascism is this?

The downfall of the west will come about because uninformed or illogical people don't understand what freedom of speech, religion, and association mean.

For your information, without the support of religious groups in the U.S. blacks would not have equal rights in the U.S. today. Indeed, you could say the impetus came from them. The REVEREND Martin Luther King, the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference. Get it?

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## Sile

> Who are you or anyone else to decide that people can't pray in groups? What new kind of fascism is this?
> 
> The downfall of the west will come about because uninformed or illogical people don't understand what freedom of speech, religion, and association mean.
> 
> For your information, without the support of religious groups in the U.S. blacks would not have equal rights in the U.S. today. Indeed, you could say the impetus came from them. The REVEREND Martin Luther King, the Southern CHRISTIAN Leadership Conference. Get it?


re-read what i stated ...........I am not China
you jump to negative thoughts as usual

re-read ................i said China

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## Salento

It’s complicated to understand the concept of Freedom of Religion, and Separation of Church and State.
Every Country has his own Meaning.
Many don’t know that In the U.S. Constitution there’s no mention of separation of Church and State: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” 
It’s up to to every single State to figure it out.
At the Federal level, Religious people, or groups with or without an agenda that are also Citizens, can try and influence legislation.
Religious groups that push for some Law, do so through their member’s lobbying elected officials, and using public opinion strategies. It doesn’t mean that they will succeed every time. As Citizens they have the right of free speech too.
The United States Federal Government doesn’t have a State-Religion.

Italy has a Separation of Church and State, but it’s influenced by many Catholic Traditions, for example don’t be surprised if you see a Crucifix in a class room, or in a bureaucratic office.
Article 7 of The Italian Constitution:
“The State and the Catholic Church are independent and sovereign, each within its own sphere. Their relations are regulated by the Lateran pacts. Amendments to such Pacts which are accepted by both parties shall not require the procedure of constitutional amendments."

Countries with a State Religion:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

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## Angela

> It’s complicated to understand the concept of Freedom of Religion, and Separation of Church and State.
> Every Country has his own Meaning.
> Many don’t know that In the U.S. Constitution there’s no mention of separation of Church and State: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” 
> It’s up to to every single State to figure it out.
> At the Federal level, Religious people, or groups with or without an agenda that are also Citizens, can try and influence legislation.
> Religious groups that push for some Law, do so through their member’s lobbying elected officials, and using public opinion strategies. It doesn’t mean that they will succeed every time. As Citizens they have the right of free speech too.
> The United States Federal Government doesn’t have a State-Religion.
> 
> Italy has a Separation of Church and State, but it’s influenced by many Catholic Traditions, for example don’t be surprised if you see a Crucifix in a class room, or in a bureaucratic office.
> ...


Congress can legislate all it wants. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter. There may be differences of opinion among jurists as to whether or not "In God We Trust" can appear on currency, but to "establish a religion, spend tax dollars for one religion over others, would require a constitutional amendment, and it's never going to happen.

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## Salento

In God We Trust is generic. But We all know which God they mean, but if challenged in the courts technically could be any God.
They will say that God is just another reference for the Universe.
In Italy they get away with the Crucifix by claiming that is just an Historic symbol, part of National Identity, a symbol of Peace and as such is a Secular Icon, even if is also a religious icon. (There is also some very old regulations that allowed the cross to be exposed, but I don’t remember the details).

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## Sile

> It’s complicated to understand the concept of Freedom of Religion, and Separation of Church and State.
> Every Country has his own Meaning.
> Many don’t know that In the U.S. Constitution there’s no mention of separation of Church and State: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” 
> It’s up to to every single State to figure it out.
> At the Federal level, Religious people, or groups with or without an agenda that are also Citizens, can try and influence legislation.
> Religious groups that push for some Law, do so through their member’s lobbying elected officials, and using public opinion strategies. It doesn’t mean that they will succeed every time. As Citizens they have the right of free speech too.
> The United States Federal Government doesn’t have a State-Religion.
> Italy has a Separation of Church and State, but it’s influenced by many Catholic Traditions, for example don’t be surprised if you see a Crucifix in a class room, or in a bureaucratic office.
> Article 7 of The Italian Constitution:
> ...


there is currently an issue in Australia , as religious institutions want exemptions to the law of the land. issue is that the people voted yes for gay marriages and full gender equality due to this proposal.............the religious institutions want the ability to hire and fire teachers based on anything to do with preference of sex or gender...............IMO there should be no exemptions because you ( the government ) end up loosing control.
We already have the law that confessions cannot hide certain acts...like murder or rape etc ....these ministers have to tell the authorities about these evils
my best guess is that the religious institutions will suffer.........both legally and monetary

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## Salento

> there is currently an issue in Australia , as religious institutions want exemptions to the law of the land. issue is that the people voted yes for gay marriages and full gender equality due to this proposal.............the religious institutions want the ability to hire and fire teachers based on anything to do with preference of sex or gender...............IMO there should be no exemptions because you ( the government ) end up loosing control.
> We already have the law that confessions cannot hide certain acts...like murder or rape etc ....these ministers have to tell the authorities about these evils
> my best guess is that the religious institutions will suffer.........both legally and monetary


A Non-profit Religious and Secular group or institution (schools, hospitals, shelters, charities, general helper of the needy, ...) that doesn’t receive Public money, imo should have the option of not hiring anybody, or limit employees benefits that don’t conform with their Beliefs. 
If they don’t like it, they can go seek employment somewhere else.
I emphasize: Exemptions should only apply to NonProfits with no Public Money support.

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## CrazyDonkey

> re-read what i stated ...........I am not China
> you jump to negative thoughts as usual
> 
> re-read ................i said China


They're only being ideologically consistent: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness." - Karl Marx.

Don't agree? Because they believe they wholly possess the truth, you just need to be _re-educated_. Off to the camps go you! (On the other hand, many so-called "Christians" believe exactly the same thing.)

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## Sile

> They're only being ideologically consistent: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness." - Karl Marx.
> 
> Don't agree? Because they believe they wholly possess the truth, you just need to be _re-educated_. Off to the camps go you! (On the other hand, many so-called "Christians" believe exactly the same thing.)


the constitutional religion in china is athesium ( for better or worse ) , you cannot expect religious institutions to tackle the nations law without the nation's retaliation.

the chinese had the first sign of religious revolt from 2009 ( islam ) and 2013 ( Buddhism ) ........since less than 20% of Chinese are religious, the state has the backing of the people to curb what they call religious fanatics, control the leaders of these religious institutions and have declared that these institutions pray to symbols and not their faith , ie, church, crosses, synagogues, mosque etc etc ( i see their point , how can you declare when a religion is pagan when they have symbols , while you also have symbols) ........I expect these "symbols" to eventually be completely removed from Chinese society.

I do not have a opinion on this as I am not there to fully grasp the situation.

you do not agree on what ?...........the ability to pray without anybody around?, if you are relgious you should know you can pray anywhere , in a field, on the beach, in bed......I do not see what your issue is

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## Salento

Some people don’t like to pray alone, They like it better to form a group and pray together.
I consider it Freedom of Assembly too!
It’s not the business of any Government to know if I pray alone, with whom I pray, where I pray, or if I Pray at All!

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## Sile

> Some people don’t like to pray alone, They like it better to form a group and pray together.
> I consider it Freedom of Assembly too!
> It’s not the business of any Government to know if I pray alone, with whom I pray, where I pray, or if I Pray at All!



that's the point, you cannot form an assembly to pray in China....how do they know you are going to pray.......you could be demonstrating ( again against Chinese law)........from what I read.....and what I assume they are saying is,..... you have freedom of religion as long it is by yourself.......there is no group freedom of religion. thats why they are burning bibles, arresting religious leaders and re-educating the populace of thinking about China first and religion last

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## Salento

> that's the point, you cannot form an assembly to pray in China....how do they know you are going to pray.......you could be demonstrating ( again against Chinese law)........from what I read.....and what I assume they are saying is,..... you have freedom of religion as long it is by yourself.......there is no group freedom of religion. thats why they are burning bibles, arresting religious leaders and re-educating the populace of thinking about China first and religion last


An example of Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Assembly at its best.
Last Night at a political Rally, President Trump stopped the event for 8 minutes for a sick/fallen Trumpista, he asked the crowd to say a prayer, and then the Trumpsters started singing Amazing Grace. What a moment ....

*
Amazing Grace
*_Trumpsters to a fallen Trumpista

_




8-minutes pause:
https://youtu.be/5-wXE4uh8P8


Another example:_Melania reciting the Lord’s Prayer (Padre Nostro)_

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## Salento

*Prophecy - Mid-term Election**
Pastor Hank Kunneman*  :Petrified: 




... and, is not comedy. 

It’s absurd and somewhat disconcerting that some of these Freaks have a following of believers, but it’s their Right and so be it.

—————-

_Multiple Presidential Blessing by Clergy_  :Grin:

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## Oxxy

I don't think religion should be connected with politics somehow.

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## Ceribell

Sadly not Catholics with pope Francis as the head of the church, 
he is a full blown Marxist!

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