# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Where did haplogroup T first originate

## adamo

Where did hg T originate in your opinion

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## zanipolo

M184 ( T ) originated in the Persian gulf region and
M70 ( T1 ) originated in the Pamir mountains in Tajikstan

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## Maciamo

It's pointless to vote since there is not enough data now to answer that kind of question. Actually we cannot even tell where well studied haplogroups originated, even haplogroup G, I, J or R1b.

All I can say is that haplogroup T most probably played a role in the early diffusion of agriculture from the Levant to Europe and West Asia. Just before the Neolithic, hg T would surely have been present in the Levant and Egypt, but that doesn't mean it originated there tens of thousands of years earlier.

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## adamo

Map of hg T I found https://ce40fac3-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0

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## zanipolo

> It's pointless to vote since there is not enough data now to answer that kind of question. Actually we cannot even tell where well studied haplogroups originated, even haplogroup G, I, J or R1b.
> 
> All I can say is that haplogroup T most probably played a role in the early diffusion of agriculture from the Levant to Europe and West Asia. Just before the Neolithic, hg T would surely have been present in the Levant and Egypt, but that doesn't mean it originated there tens of thousands of years earlier.


I think T went from hunter-gatherers to early farmers in europe............the ancestor of T which is K and found in australian aboriginals have always been hunter-gatherers, ...........even after 40000 years

40000 years of non agriculture left them with 3 million population .............says something about agriculture.


BTW, the high T in central France ........where can I find the data for this?

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## adamo

There is no high T in central FranceFrance

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## zanipolo

> There is no high T in central FranceFrance


Maciano ( rocky ) has 4.5 in Auvergne France

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## adamo

according to the map i posted, hg t has highs in eastern iran and tip of united arab emirates as well as a power core in southern iraq that extends well into north/central iraq (some 13% of iraqis are positive for t-m70 on a national level that makes some 7 million iraqis out of 35 million positive for t-m70.) this high extends well into eastern turkey's kurdish regions where we see another small high as well. the southern iraqi high extends well into parts of saudi arabia and eventually into egypt/horn of africa as well. kuwait is also very within the southern iraqi t high. we know its found in eastern turkish kurds (13%) many studies on assyrians show 13-15% T in assyrians towards anatolia, iraq , iran, southwestern iran (ancient elam).

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## adamo

seems that is found in 13-15% of assyrians, 20% of jordanians, 10% of egyptians, 13% of iraqis , even 12% of ethiopians

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## zanipolo

@adamo

why are you not using
*T1a1a* L208
instead of L299 ??

as you are positive for L208

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## adamo

im positive to L299+ according to the genographic project which is equivalent to L162+.but after transfering to ftdna and reviewing what i had been tested for, i saw i was L208+ as well, i havent been tested for p77 or p317 etc.

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## zanipolo

> im positive to L299+ according to the genographic project which is equivalent to L162+.but after transfering to ftdna and reviewing what i had been tested for, i saw i was L208+ as well, i havent been tested for p77 or p317 etc.


as I said , you are no longer L299 , you are L208 which further along the branch. That is how you would be recognized by genetic scholars

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## adamo

i know, genographic project says im l299 but i tested positive for l208 according to ftdna, i actually posted the sequence a few pages back.

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## adamo

since hg T didnt challenge the Pamir knot and considering hg L went south through Pakistan to southern India where L still dominates today, wouldn't it be good to test uzbekistan , tajikistan , turkmenistan , afghanistan for hgT?

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## John123

I would like to bring attention to the old map I had posted just above on this thread; the high of T on this map coincides well with a straight of Hormuz origin for T, this makes it a good candidate for the original region from which it spread to Horn of Africa/Zanzibar/Madagascar based on what we know about the prince of Shiraz (those that have been reading my posts on T know what I'm referring to lol).

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## John123

Ftdna only shows a T-M184* from a Turk in gaziantep, turkey, on the border with Syria. The "increased T resolution phylogeny" study everyone knows about from biomes also states that T-M184* was only present in a Syrian (1% of the 5% T total found in the study). M70 basal is found in a Turk from Adana (again, southern turkey) and a central Iranian from the Yazd region. The next clade in order (m70+, L1255+,L1254+) is found in westernmost Iran in bandar Mashahr, not far from the Tigris valley region.

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## John123

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6332545.stm

Interesting article: "T is found in more than 7% of the population in Somalia, Egypt, Oman and Iraq".

phoenicians of Lebanon theory for Mediterranean spread.

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## John123

According to this study T was detected in 2% of Turkish and 1.5% of Georgian males. 4% of men from the Atlantic Madeira islands and 2% of Portuguese men have it. The frequencies were slightly higher for spaniards (3%). Frequencies were even lower in morocco (1%). Tunisia had less than 1% and Sardinia had 1%. Cameroon had 2%. Frequencies were just as low in the Czech Republic and Greece. It was detected though in 5% of 1. Druze of the levant , 2. Palestinians, 3. Ethiopians and 4. Wairak of Tanzania, making it a tad more present there, as is the case in the Atlantic Madeira islands. It was present in 7% of both Egyptian and Iraqi males. The highest frequencies detected were 8% of Omani males and 10% of Somalis.

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## Sile

> Ftdna only shows a T-M184* from a Turk in gaziantep, turkey, on the border with Syria. The "increased T resolution phylogeny" study everyone knows about from biomes also states that T-M184* was only present in a Syrian (1% of the 5% T total found in the study). M70 basal is found in a Turk from Adana (again, southern turkey) and a central Iranian from the Yazd region. The next clade in order (m70+, L1255+,L1254+) is found in westernmost Iran in bandar Mashahr, not far from the Tigris valley region.


i already provided you information on this person, he is an armenian from the shores of the black sea. I even gave you his name.

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## John123

Map of hg T I found https://ce40fac3-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0

What do u think of this map and the proposed slave market route migrations of shirazi Persians/Omani Arabs from the port of Hormuz region? I didn't construe this map myself oddly enough

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## John123

The link isn't working; anyways it's posted above it works there, post #4 , sorry about that

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## John123

All in all, if the 18% T Sciacca and 16% T Ibiza statistics are correct, coupled with geno 2.0's 15-20% of Jordanians and the above study's 5% of Palestinians and Madeira islanders + 13% of northern Corsicans and 25% on Chios, then we seriously start getting the Phoenicians of Lebanon/Canaan as a heavyweight contender for the spread of T across the Mediterranean world. Then you get 10% Cadiz; the only abnormality is the virtual absence of T in modern day Lebanon, unless you have a statistic or two you can pull out to prove me wrong ; ). The study I checked found abnormally high T in Somalians (10%), Omanis (8%), Egyptians and Iraqis (7%) and surprisingly Druze, Palestinians, Madeira islanders, Ethiopians and Wairak of Tanzania as well (5%).

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## John123

I know multiple canary islanders positive for T (even T1a1a3) , 16% on Ibiza are T and 5% of men on Madeira islands are T. Personally, I don't know who could have introduced 5% T in Madeira islanders other than the Phoenicians who we know sailed passed Gibraltar, even as far as the Atlantic every now and then. Unless there was some type of Jewish expedition to the region, which as of now I doubt. Also, the ancient Phoenician colony of Cadiz, sort of a 'half-way point" between Ibiza and Canary/Madeira islands, has 10% T as well. When we combine north Corsica's 12-13% T with the 18% T in Sciacca (western Sicily) a pattern starts to appear more or less.

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## John123

All those particular coastal Mediterranean regions align perfectly with the ancient presence of Phoenician colonies. Ibiza, for example, has the highest "national" frequencies of T in Europe, far out-beating Sicily's combined 6% T. Ibiza has about 17% T. This entire island was heavily settled by the Phoenicians and was called "Ibossim" in the ancient Phoenician tongue. It was sort of a small Phoenician island-nation for quite some time before the Phoenicians fell under Assyrian pressure in their mainland, after this the Greeks took control. A good indicator of ancient Phoenician presence would be production of purple dye.

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## John123

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~flmendez/p...2011_suppl.pdf 

Sile, would you be kind enough to explain to me what the interpretations/results on the fifth page of this study mean? I don't understand it.

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## John123

It would seem thomas Jefferson was also a T1a1a3; today it is found most highly in Egyptians. It is probably of pre-Phoenician NEOLITHIC origin in Europe, having arrived some 5,000-10,000 years ago, according to a y-dna T expert.

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## John123

T1a1a3 cluster 
Pavia, Lombardia
Pavia, Lombardia
Mozabites, Ghardaia (Algeria)
Funchal, Madeira
Keghi, Turkey (Armenians) surname Mirakian
Aragón (Northeast Iberia)
Easingwold, North Yorkshire (Walker Grice surname) England
Eduardo Henriquez, Cuba (Canary islands)
Asturias (Northwest Iberia)
Galicia (Northwest Iberia)
Zoiliano Soto, Puerto Rico (origin: Fes, Morocco)
Azar Choukroun (Fes, Morocco)
Noord-Brabant, Netherlands
Saudi Arabia
Central Portugal
Assiut, Southern Egyptian
Assiut, Southern Egyptian
Saudi Arabia
North Lebanon, Sunnite Muslim
Lebanon
Dublin, Ireland (Crump surname)
Bridlington, East Riding of Yorkshire (Kidd surname) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Jefferson (sunrame) England
Essenheim, Germany ( surname Fishel )
Cork, Munster, Ireland (Duke surname)
Funchal, Madeira ( Surname Gomes de Faria ) 
surname Cariri do Nascimento
German Stilfs (South Tyrol)
Dubai
Campania
Keghi, Turkey (Armenians) surname Oolovgian

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## John123

Iraqw, (Tanzania)
Iraqw, (Tanzania)
south-central italian
south-central italian
Iraqw, Tanzania
Iraqw, Tanzania
Palestinian Muslim Arab
Palestinian Cristian Arab

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## John123

I find it strange that there is 14% T in Antalya, in the ancient Phoenician Turkish province of Finike, which would then come to be know "Lycia". Assiut, a city from which there are many T1a1a3 haplotypes was once known as "lycopolis" "lyco" or "Lycaon", in my opinion due to Phoenician presence in this region. The positionment of these T1a1a3 haplotypes to me, is in synch with Phoenician Mediterranean presence.

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## John123

I've joined a "represent T group" XD there is me, a Palestinian, west Iranian, Druze, Iraqi, a Hungarian, Algerian, Cypriot, Kuwaiti, more Turks, Sicilians, southern Italians than I can account for, a few African fellows, englishmen, a Georgian, a German, some people from the Latin American world; interesting.

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## John123

I've been speaking with a T Somalian man,he is telling me the isaaq, Darod, basically all Horn of Africa clans high in T descend from Hashemites of the Quraysh tribe of the central Red Sea coast region of Saudi Arabia (coastal Hejaz). Same for the Madagascar tribes having stories of origins from Mecca (Quraysh home). The Hashemites/Quraysh ironically expanded into Jordan and Iraq most notably. This aligns very well with the ftdna samples, of which many are men of Saudi Arabian descent, MEMBERS of the Quraysh tribe and Banu Hashim men as well, from Iraq to Somalia.

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## Sile

> I've been speaking with a T Somalian man,he is telling me the isaaq, Darod, basically all Horn of Africa clans high in T descend from Hashemites of the Quraysh tribe of the central Red Sea coast region of Saudi Arabia (coastal Hejaz). Same for the Madagascar tribes having stories of origins from Mecca (Quraysh home). The Hashemites/Quraysh ironically expanded into Jordan and Iraq most notably. This aligns very well with the ftdna samples, of which many are men of Saudi Arabian descent, MEMBERS of the Quraysh tribe and Banu Hashim men as well, from Iraq to Somalia.


you do know that T-L131 is 3300 years older than T-P77 as per mendez papers, with this, and also info that L131 is older and we already know its* more Northern* than P77 we can conclude that the Mesopotamian, Arabian and African *T* of these areas are "newer"

older than L131 and P77 is PS21 and that is 3100 years older than L131...and PS21 originates in assyrian and north of assyrian lands....................did'nt you read Mendez paper...its the main paper for T

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## John123

What can be found "north of Assyrian lands"? The oldest T haplotypes were seen in levant and Iran at 20,000 years I believe, where did it originate in your opinion?

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## Sile

> What can be found "north of Assyrian lands"? The oldest T haplotypes were seen in levant and Iran at 20,000 years I believe, where did it originate in your opinion?


We also estimated the TMRCA of different branches of the tree (T, T1,
T1a, T1a2, and T1b) using a parametric (BATWING) and a nonparametric (Td)
method. Based on Td and 17 Y-STRs, the estimates for the TMRCAs of the
haplogroups defined by M70, PS21, L131, and P77 are 16.9 Ky, 14.0 Ky, 10.9
Ky, and 7.6 Ky, respectively (Table 2). We did not estimate the TMRCA of the
entire T haplogroup using this method because the asymmetry caused by the
presence of only a single M184* chromosome would likely lead to an
underestimation of the age of M184.

M70 = 16.9
PS21 = 14.0
L131 = 10.9
P77 = 7.6

M184 = over 20000

P326 which is shared between L and T is 46000

what are you asking?

I said PS21 is assyrian and north of assyria...could be more assyrian, ..........check your history books who was there

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## John123

Armenians I guess? So PS21 originated somewhere near northern Iraq/Armenia. T-M70+ I guess Iran? T is pretty diverse in both the levant and Iran, a few studies indicate even higher diversity in the levant than for Iran.

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## Sile

> Armenians I guess? So PS21 originated somewhere near northern Iraq/Armenia. T-M70+ I guess Iran? T is pretty diverse in both the levant and Iran, a few studies indicate even higher diversity in the levant than for Iran.


I was just thinking, have you looked into ,* if you* could be of CHALDEAN stock, they are Mesopotamian and later moved to Phoenicia ( lebanon). Many went to Spain and Italy as the majority are catholics/christians in faith

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## sparkey

> I was just thinking, have you looked into ,* if you* could be of CHALDEAN stock, they are Mesopotamian and later moved to Phoenicia ( lebanon). Many went to Spain and Italy as the majority are catholics/christians in faith


If you're talking about a movement of people from Chaldea to Phoenicia when the term "Phoenicia" was current, then you're confusing the ancient Chaldeans of SE Mesopotamia, the tribe who largely ruled the Neo-Babylonian Empire, with the modern Chaldean Catholics, so-called because "Chaldean" became synonymous with "Mesopotamia" by the time their first patriarchate was given its name in 1553. Chaldean Catholics are probably not descended primarily from the ancient Chaldeans, but rather share common ancestry with modern Assyrians, who seem to be primarily descended from ancient Assyrians and other populations who passed through the northern Mesopotamia region.

That said, I'm not sure what movement to Phoenicia you're talking about. When did that happen? If it's something more recent and you really do mean Chaldean Catholics, then probably "Phoenicia" isn't the right term to be using for the region.

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## John123

I really have no idea to be honest; I doubt I'm from there.

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## John123

Interesting little video, The males of the Al-Khalifa ruling family of Bahrain is T1a2 (T-P77). They find their origins in Saudi Arabia though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T1LExcbR0is

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## John123

The Al-Sabah related family of Kuwait is a T too (related to Al-Khalifa) sorry about the terribly gay music lolll, I didn't exactly make the video

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## Sile

> If you're talking about a movement of people from Chaldea to Phoenicia when the term "Phoenicia" was current, then you're confusing the ancient Chaldeans of SE Mesopotamia, the tribe who largely ruled the Neo-Babylonian Empire, with the modern Chaldean Catholics, so-called because "Chaldean" became synonymous with "Mesopotamia" by the time their first patriarchate was given its name in 1553. Chaldean Catholics are probably not descended primarily from the ancient Chaldeans, but rather share common ancestry with modern Assyrians, who seem to be primarily descended from ancient Assyrians and other populations who passed through the northern Mesopotamia region.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure what movement to Phoenicia you're talking about. When did that happen? If it's something more recent and you really do mean Chaldean Catholics, then probably "Phoenicia" isn't the right term to be using for the region.


from 

*The Chaldeans are also referred to as the “Neo-Babyloni**ans.” Their capital was located in Babylon as well. In 612**BCE, the Chaldeans gained independence when they defeated* *the Assyrians. The greatest Chaldean king was Nebuchadnezzar II. He conquered Phoenicia and the Hebrew kingdom of Judah (modern-day Israel). In doing so,* *Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Hebrew Temple in Jerusalem a**nd forced 10,000 Jews to relocate to Babylon as slaves* 

there ar eplenty like this on the net............the chaldeans took all of the levant looping from the north to moden israel

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## John123

According to the geno 2.0 migration map, T originated somewhere on the borders of southern Iraq, northern Saudi Arabia and eastern Jordan. From here, one branch would head through southern Iraq towards western Iran (Tehran/Isfahan/Kashan region). Another branch headed through southern Jordan/Israel onto the Sinai peninsula, and from northern Egypt it would travel to around southern Tunisia. Another branch headed through Syria and turkey into Europe via Bulgaria, then through Serbia and towards Slovenia.

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## John123

Interesting quotes on hg T from Madagascar antemoro study:

Haplogroup T1 was not found in the Ampanabaka group, only in the Antalaotra (9%) and the Anteony (55%) groups. Clade T is rare but it has a very broad distribution. T1 is found mainly in the Middle East (Palestine, Lebanon, Oman, Turkey, southern Iran), North Africa (Egypt, Morocco), sub-Saharan Africa (especially in eastern Africa: Ethiopia, Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda), and Europe [18,36,44–49]. It has also been described in India and China [34,40,50]

For haplotypes belonging to clade T (Figure 7), it also appeared that the Antemoro were not positioned at the ends of branches. Two Antemoro haplotypes were found in the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon and Palestine). Another haplotype was similar to an individual from Angola. These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon.

The T1 haplogroup, found at very low frequency in the world, seems to have a Southwestern Asia origin and to be associated with many demographic processes such as the spread of agriculture, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and the Jewish Diaspora [49]. Its presence in eastern Asia could be due to commercial and cultural exchanges via the former Silk Road [50]. Currently, it is found mainly in the Middle East but also in eastern Africa, northern Africa and probably in other regions that have been in contact with these geographic areas.

The Median-Joining network for T1 haplotypes links these lineages to Israel, Lebanon and Palestine. These results are also consistent with the low FST values between Anteony and Antalaotra and populations from Middle East/Southwest Asia. The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East.

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## John123

It seems the T haplotypes of the Antemoro (two of them) clustered with T's from Phoenician periphery (Israel,Palestine,Lebanon). Sort of indicates a spread pattern:

"These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon."

The outgoing branches are connected to Europe, Brazil (immigrants, probably Portuguese) Zambia, North African and LEBANON. Phoenician spread maybe?

and then that last phrase:" The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the Persian Gulf or Middle East"

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## Sile

@adamo

I have read recently that the oldest 
T-P77 had mtdna marker h1ah
and 
T-L446 had mtdna marker of T2c2

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## John123

According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.

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## Sile

> According to geno 2.0 I'm 56% Mediterranean, 22% north European and 21% southwest Asian. "Mediterranean" includes everything south of central France (Spain,Portugal, Italy,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Romania, even Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia). The North African coast is also somehow included in this (morocco, northern Algeria, Tunisia, northern Libya, Egypt) and the Levantine coast (turkey,Cyprus,Lebanon,Syria,western Iraq). This region is associated with the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic 8,000 years ago via the western Fertile Crescent. Sardinians, Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Egyptians and Tunisians where the reference populations for the Mediterranean classification. Then Northern European includes northern France, the British isles, Belgium, holland, Germany, Denmark, Poland, the Baltic states, all of Scandinavia (including Finland) parts of Russia. English, Danes, Finns, Russians and Germans were the reference populations for north European classification. This classification represents the original hunter-gatherers of old Europe before the Neolithic. Then southwest Asian includes Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, India. The reference populations for southwest Asian were Iranians, Tajiks and Indians. This represents the spread of Neolithic via/towards the eastern Fertile Crescent.


I am surprised natGeno2 did not find any percentage of central european for you ( swiss, austrian, czech, slovene or hungarian )

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## John123

That wasn't an included option. The totality of Europe was summed up by Northern European and Mediterranean components. North European is everything to the north of central France and northern romania on the other end. Mediterranean was everything under that line including a strip of northernmost Africa and turkey + the general levant region.

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## John123

Which, I found that lame actually that north-Africa and reference populations such as Tunisians and Egyptians where classed under "Mediterranean"; I just didn't get that one. I understand south-central Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece coupled with turkey and Lebanon as "Mediterranean" (representing Neolithic component of Southern Europeans) but when they included Algerians, Tunisians and Egyptians I was taken aback. Why not just create a separate north-African component at that point? lol

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## John123

They weren't mentioned as reference populations but I'm sure the countries you stated where classed as north Europeans. Also I wanted to mention that I find it interesting that T in Madagascar clustered with lebanese, Israelis and Palestinians as the Phoenicians passed through the Nile of Egypt, went down the Swahili coast and basically circled Africa on both sides, the entire continent, moving from Cadiz to Canary Islands and Madeiras islands, hugging the coast all around. Also, can you explain to me what the results on the fifth page of this study means?

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~flmendez/p...2011_suppl.pdf

im not sure if the link works, I posted it on the first page if you could check it out for me; which column indicates the final number of T samples, I don't get it.

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## John123

A quote from god (spencer wells private message):

"T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"

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## Sile

> A quote from god (spencer wells private message):
> 
> "T is found around the Mediterranean basin, and yes, some of its spread almost certainly was due to the Phoenicians. Not too surprising given you Italian ancestry, especially if it was southern Italian/Sicilian. Hope this helps!"


God has spoken........but.....but , what about me?

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## John123

But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (

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## Sile

> But how could you be god Sile? You don't keep me entertained enough with propositions of our origins LOL, I'm always doing the research : (


i meant spencer wells is god

you need to catch up in regards to research.........i still cannot find this 22% jordanians...I only found 6.7%

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## John123

Courtesy of genographic 2.0 (well, according to them):

"This is my genographic description for M70: age of haplogroup, mutation took place: 33,750-19,250 years ago.This step of your paternal ancestors journey took place in the fertile climate of west Asia during the upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage where hunter gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapons technology. From west Asia, this lineage spread to north Africa, South Asia, and Europe. Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages of west Asia. It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews. In North Africa, it is 6 to 7% of male Egyptian lineages and about 7% of the male Ethiopian population. In South Asia, it is 53% of the isolated Bauris Indian male lineages and 7 to 11 % of Gond indian male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17% of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5% of male lineages on mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany. (Then there are photos associated with M70) they say: (photo #1): Some 20% of all Jordanian men are members of the M70 lineage which arose in West Asia during the fertile Upper Paleolithic and remains common here. (Photo#2): Many groups of the Jewish diaspora, including Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews, such as this man, share the M70 lineage. (Photo#3): This Iraqi man may be part of the M70 lineage which rose among hunter gatherers in the fertile climes of west Asia. From there, other branches spread to South Asia, North Africa and Europe. (Photo#4): This Baghdad girl lives in an ancient cradle of civilizations. The fertile lands of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spawned early agriculture and legendary cities like Babylon. (Photo#5): Boys from Kashan, Iran live in an ancient centre of human civilization. The nearby site of Tepe Sialk includes evidence of human settlement 8,000 years ago."

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## John123

Then there is another description for my L299 subclade: age: 26,500-14,500 years ago: This man and his earliest descendants lived in western Asia during the time of Kebaran culture. The wide-traveling hunter-gatherers of west Asia were some of the earliest groups to use and collect cereal grains. The fertile land of the Levant and increasing utilization of grains set the stage for the Neolithic revolution. Though the Neolithic revolution did not push this lineage to dominance as it did others, the new agriculture-based settlements did help it expand across west Asia, and into North Africa, Anatolia, and Southern Europe. Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16%) Egypt (16%) Somalia (14%) and Iraq (13%). It is present throughout West Asia, and is about 8% of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13% of male Assyrian populations. It is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1%. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish diaspora populations. That's my L299 description, is it just re-stating M70, or describing L299 in particular, I do not know, although this was written as information of specifically L299, the T1a1 subclade of M70 (T1).

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## Sile

why the huge range?

*It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany.*

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## John123

Probably because it represents small fractionned parts of Germany with the highest frequency being 24% in a region; I'm only shocked that the 3% isn't lower anywhere lol. But the Jordan claim is apparently substantiated, as they haven't corrected it since the nearly two years that I've taken the test.


"It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan." - genographic 2.0


you are correct in that this is the only claim I've ever seen of this but they must somehow know something that we don't with their 130,000 SNP or whatever system they have. I find it sketchy though that on the T-M70+ slide it says it's found in 21% of Jordanians, and on the following L299 slide it says it's found in 16% of Jordanians LOL; a direct contradiction. Then for T-M70+ it says some 6-7% of Egyptian males are positive for T-M70+. By the time we reach the next L299 slide/text, it says that the highest frequencies are to be found (nationally) in Jordanians (16%), Egyptians (16%), Somalis (14%) and Iraqis (13%), so this is confusing as well. And then, most studies I've seen on T in Iraq personally, seem to indicate about 6-7% T nationally, with a 9% high in the Al-Qādisiyyah Governorate province of southern Iraq, for example. I don't know who put these slides together but he must have been having a bad day on the only one dedicated to making these texts (lol). Some info though IS correct; 5% of italians proper, 7% of Ethiopians, 8% of Druze, 10-13% of Assyrians towards Anatolia, less than 1% of English and Dutch males.
The Indian lineages as well are represented correctly, and the 5-17% of Sicilians. The German minimum is too high (3%) and their 24% maximum could have novices confused thinking certain regions of Germany are haplogroup T havens; which isn't the case other than in a few genetically isolated south-Bavarian communities I imagine, that must have had contact with northeastern italy (Tyrol or Veneto regions, for example.) But the lowering of the Jordanian % and the heightening of the Egyptian ones from the T-M70+ slide to the T-L299+ one are a source of concern to me, unless I'm the one misinterpreting. Also, I'm not sure how much evidence there is out there substantiating that 13% of Iraqis and 16-21% of Jordanians are M70+ positive; someone would have to grow some balls and contact someone at genographic 2.0 for source claims or study proof. I guess Egyptians have 6-7% to 16% T? I've seen studies showing 8% nationally with 10% pockets in the south, but who knows.

----------


## John123

Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Libyan Arabs, Lebanese; they all seem to gravitate around 5% with Iraq at 6%. Assyrians of Iran, Egyptians and Omani people are nearer to 8%; thats about it according to Wikipedia lol.

----------


## John123

To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 1-2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in The eastern Spanish islands, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T in Ibiza , thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.

Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:

"Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.

----------


## John123

To me, nailing the origin of T in the Mediterranean is actually pretty simple; we just need to take a look at southern Iberia. First of all, there's a very coastal Mediterranean bias for T in Europe; particularly west-Central Europe (Iberia+Italy and islands especially). Other than minor 5-10% highs in coastal cantabria or Asturias (probable Phoenician origin as well) there are the Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews that show about 15% T in their communities. These are small and isolated however. The question is, why is there 7% T in Andalusia? Why does Cadiz in particular have 10% T? Why does Ibiza have 17% T? Who visited these regions? The Phoenicians. We know Ibiza derives it's name from Phoenician Ybossim. There are also small Jewish communities on the Ibiza islands, notably on Majorca. But these Jews came up positive for 2% T. In a genetic study done on the high frequencies of T in Iberia, this Jewish community was effectively ruled out as the source of T on the Ibiza islands, thus another source was responsible for it; by far the most likely candidate are the Phoenicians.


Deep Ancestry Project book, written by Spencer Wells himself in 2007, haplogroup K2 description:


"Not all K-M9 descendants challenged the problem of the Pamir Knot. Others stayed in the relatively fertile environment of the near east. There, some 30,000 years ago, the marker M70 appeared and today defines this haplogroup, K2. Ancient members of haplogroup K2 dispersed across the Mediterranean world. They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe. These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians. These sea-faring people established a formidable, first millennium B.C. trading empire that spread westward, across the Mediterranean from its origins on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. M70 is found today throughout the Mediterranean, but it shows it's highest frequency (about 15 percent) in the Middle East and in north-east Africa. Members of this haplogroup are also found in southern Spain and France."


the only inconsistency would be the rarity of T in modern Lebanon (4.5-5%), but if that 16-21% of Jordanians IS in fact correct, that would mean this theory would be on the right track.

----------


## John123

"They traveled west along the coast of north-Africa and also along the Mediterranean coastlines of Southern Europe" that sounds eerily like the movements of the Phoenicians, a general pattern that haplogroup T matches very well; globally. But then it's backed up by this "These movements suggest an intriguing possibility that the M70 marker may have been carried by Mediterranean traders such as the Phoenicians." Lol, so it seems already at this point they where catching on or speculating a Phoenician spread across the Mediterranean basin....the only contradictory evidence is from Lebanon and it's periphery itself, where T seems to be found at around 5% or so (like everywhere else lol...) but again like I said, if one fifth of Jordanians are in fact T (a claim not backed by other studies I've seen, 3-7%) then it could very well be a Phoenician periphery genetic marker. If I have to, I'll take a screenshot of my genographic 2.0 slides and result details to prove that this is in fact mentioned, maybe I could find an interesting photo or two as well.

----------


## John123

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/#!po=73.8095

sile can you help me understand what it says about k2 here? Which PSC+ represents K2? was it spread by Phoenicians according to this?

----------


## Sile

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...5/#!po=73.8095
> 
> sile can you help me understand what it says about k2 here? Which PSC+ represents K2? was it spread by Phoenicians according to this?


No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians

K2
Marker Modal Range of most common values
393 *13* 13-14
390 * 23* 22-25
19 *15* 14-17
391 *10* 9-11
385a *14* 13-14
385b *16* 13-17
426 * 11* apparently 11
388 * 12* 12, 14
439 *11* 10-13
389-1 *14* 13-15
392 *13* 13,14
389-2 *30* 27-30 DYS 389-2 = 27 helps 
define an entire subclade.
458 *18* 14-19
459a *9* 8,9
459b * 9* 8-10
455 *11* apparently 11
454 *13* 10-15
447 * 26* 24-27
437 *14* 12-15
448 *19* 17-21
449 * 33*,34 31-36
464a *11*
464b *13,14*
464c *15,16*
464d *16*
460 *10* 10,11
GATA H4 *10* 9-11
YCA IIa *23* 22,23
YCA IIb *24* 23-25
456 *15* 14-16
607 * 13*,14 13-15
576 * 17,18,19* 14-19
570 *18* 16-20
CDY a * 35* 30-39
CDY b * 36*
442 *11* 11-13
438 *9*

bold is average

----------


## Sile

> No PSC on list matches K2 markers.............it proves K2 is not phoenician but does not prove that K2 did no go with Phoenicians
> 
> K2
> Marker Modal Range of most common values
> 393 *13* 13-14
> 390 * 23* 22-25
> 19 *15* 14-17
> 391 *10* 9-11
> 385a *14* 13-14
> ...


from T genetic managers
Markers to note are
*DYF395S1 17-17 - results for T, L, Q and R1a all have 16-17 or 17-17 
contrasting with modal 15-16 for R1b.*
This suggests that the K founder may have had 16-17 or 17-17 and that this 
has been fairly stable in many descendant haplogroups. *It would be 
interesting to know when in the history of R1b the ancestral value changed.*
DYS413 20-20 - the lowest values I have seen outside the J2a1 (17-17) 
group.
DYF534 18 - at the upper end of the range for this marker
DYF481 27 - also "high" for this very variable marker.

----------


## Sile

I recently read that T-M70 originated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorestan_Province

by the Kassites group.................of course T is far older, I guess the paper means an association with an ancient people ............still T-M184 the basal marker is elusive

----------


## John123

Ok so T is not a main Phoenician marker...? Then what explains it's particular spread across the Mediterranean, canary/Madeiras islans, Lemba; a community of sleek crypto-Jews moving across the board? The distribution has an undeniably Phoenician pattern...can you send me the paper, new info for once...so now it'sit's the kassites of western Iran I guess.

----------


## The_Lyonnist

Sumer ? Maybe.

----------


## RobertColumbia

> Sumer ? Maybe.


I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.

----------


## Sile

> I have heard this theory, but I'm not aware of any strong support. It is tempting, though, because Sumerian is a language isolate in a sea of Semitic languages (Babylonian, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.) and seeing language "islands" is often a sign of y-chromosome diversity according to the "father tongue" hypothesis. Of course, the "father tongue" hypothesis doesn't always hold, with Hungarian and (possibly) Basque as notable exceptions. Sumerian could be a "mother tongue" language that was spoken by J-bearing men closely related to their Semitic-speaking cousins, but who themselves spoke a matrilineal language.


It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna 

But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam

IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then

----------


## Sile

T in Ibiza ( Eivissa Pityuses ) which represents 17% of the populace

not my branch of ydna 

*T1a1-L162 (xL208)*T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals but is not until August 2009 when the first T1a1-L162(xL208) individual was reported in a 23andMe customer of Pontic Greek background and Metaxopoulos surname, thanks to the public Adriano Squecco's Y-Chromosome Genome Comparison Project.
Pontic Greeks from Giresun descend from Sinope colonists and Sinope was colonised by Ionians from Miletus. Is interesting to note that there exist an Ionian colony known as Pityussa just like the known Greek name for Eivissa Pityuses. In Eivissa, where is found the famous bust of Demeter that have been confused with the punic Tanit for decades, is known the cult to Demeter. The bust belonging to Demeter have been analysed and is found to contains black particles of volcanic sand origin from the Etna, is thought to be made in Sicily with red clays typical of the eastern Trinacria, which was colonized by the Ionians. The Ionians could be arrived to Eivissa c.2700 YBP. This lineage could be an Ionian marker. T1a1 formed 17,400-14,600 BP, is the largest lineage downstream from T1a-M70 and became widespread across Eurasia and Africa before the modern era.
This extremely rare subclade has been found in Ibizan (Eivissan) islanders and Pontic Greeks from Giresun. The first Y-STR haplotype belonging to this lineage appeared in the paper of Tomas et al in 2006 among a sample of Eivissan individuals.

Rodríguez V, Tomàs C, Sánchez JJ, et al. (March 2009). "Genetic sub-structure in western Mediterranean populations revealed by 12 Y-chromosome STR loci". _Int. J. Legal Med_. *123* (2): 137–41. doi:10.1007/s00414-008-0302-y. PMID 19066931.

----------


## Sile

> It did not originate there..........it would have originated where LT split apart, so where near L ydna 
> 
> But Maciano IIRC states more of a Elamite than Sumer for T
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam
> 
> IMO, sumer came from NW india to Kasmir areas and went to sumer ...............via the persian gulf which was only a river then


@Marciamo

I read your September 2016 update on T ( ydna ) and it seems the you like that, Pole from Eurogenes conveniently forget about samples that could "ruin your theory" from the past.

I hope this is not the case

Most of the article is good.

But, the issue is that you continually leave out the second Karsdorf T sample from the Haak paper leaves your theory wanting..........there are actually 2 ancient T samples in early neolithic Germany

And, the/your "herder" theory seems to be destroyed, T where Anatolian farmers who went to Central Europe....... . I do not know why you use this term, it seems the term herders is irrelevant to ancient samples..........either one is a farmer or a hunter

----------


## Sile

a new Russian 2017 paper on kazikstan reveal these y-dna numbers for the 767 tested




for T y-dna 48% of the 6% are from these area below

----------


## Alpenjager

Population
Language
Location
Members/Sample size
Percentage
Source
[hide]Notes

Momyns
Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)
Argyn Tribe
16/30
53.3%
[249]
The outlier Babasan subclan is excluded from "sample size" and "percentage". 5 out of 6 Clans and 13 out of 19 Subclans have T-M184 members.

Meyrams
Old Basmyl / Kazakh (Turkic)
Argyn Tribe
15/49
30.6%
[249]
5 out of 5 Clans and 11 out of 16 Subclans have T-M184 members.



Argyns T1a-M70.jpg

----------


## Sile

> Population
> Language
> Location
> Members/Sample size
> Percentage
> Source
> [hide]Notes
> 
> Momyns
> ...


the T-m184 from you above are associated with the *Ashina people* ...............who either learnt Sogdrian or taught their language to the sogdrians

----------


## Sile

yhrd.org site

T-L131 or now called T1a2 ..................this is a scientific site, no public allowed



The Japanese and korean are from the Ainu japanese group, who originated from the caucasus 12000 apprx years ago

----------


## Sile

> yhrd.org site
> 
> T-L131 or now called T1a2 ..................this is a scientific site, no public allowed
> 
> 
> 
> The Japanese and korean are from the Ainu japanese group, who originated from the caucasus 12000 apprx years ago


this marker in Japan might actually be from portuguese and galician sailors from 1550 onwards mixing with japanese hospitality

----------


## Alpenjager

Blue = 0 samples
Red = At least 1 sample

There are 0 T-L131 samples in yhrd sadly.

----------


## Sile

> Blue = 0 samples
> Red = At least 1 sample
> 
> There are 0 T-L131 samples in yhrd sadly.


yes , you are correct...when I search for just T i get ( see below in Red )

----------


## Fatherland

> yhrd.org site
> 
> T-L131 or now called T1a2 ..................this is a scientific site, no public allowed
> 
> 
> 
> The Japanese and korean are from the Ainu japanese group, who originated from the caucasus 12000 apprx years ago


The Ainu from Caucasus?? That's clearly a joke.

----------


## Fustan

In Africa.

----------


## Bergin

Is there any ancient DNA finding regarding the T haplogroup?

----------


## Sile

> Is there any ancient DNA finding regarding the T haplogroup?


4 thaat I can recall aged between 5000 to 6000BC

2 in karlsdorf germany and 2 in Bulgaria on the danube river

----------


## Fatherland

In Somalia or even deeper in Central Africa.

----------


## Salento

The Arabs Slave Traders introduce T to Somalia and the Horn of Africa.

----------


## Alpenjager

This is not correct Salento. Haplogroup T migration into Horn of Africa is most Ancient than Arab arrival. Haplogroup T is found among Dirs and Dirs are the most indisputable descendants of Saamale, the father of all truth Somalis. So T1a1a-L208 in Horn of Africa could belong to Neolithic or Bronze Age lineage There are some calulations about this arrival and E1b and T1a have different times of arrival and demographic explosion into the Horn

----------


## Salento

T1a or M70 From Genographic:
Branch: M70
Age: 19,250 – 33,750 Years Ago.
Location of Origin: West Asia.

This step in your paternal ancestors’ journey took place in the fertile climate of West Asia during the Upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage were hunter-gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapon technology. From West Asia, this lineage spread outward to North Africa, South Asia, and Europe.

Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages in West Asia. It is around 21 percent of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish Diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews.

In North Africa, it is 6 to 7 percent of the Egyptian male population and about 7 percent of the Ethiopian male population. In South Asia, it is 53 percent of Bauris male lineages and 7 to 11 percent of Gond male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany.

----------


## Salento

From 23andme
Attachment 9070

----------


## Alpenjager

This is not too much reliable, 23andMe have too outdated Y-DNA sources. You can do your own research and predictions using my T-M184 phylogenetic tree work: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-M184_tree.png

----------


## Salento

> This is not too much reliable, 23andMe have too outdated Y-DNA sources. You can do your own research and predictions using my T-M184 phylogenetic tree work: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-M184_tree.png


Thanks really cool.. 23andme Updated the Y Presentation (not the data, as for your Info) 2-3 weeks ago, and it shows that some members of T once in SW Asia, Migrated to Europe, Asia, and others went back to North Africa, and around the Horn of Africa.

----------


## Fustan

> In Somalia or even deeper in Central Africa.


This is my theory also.

----------


## Alpenjager

> This is my theory also.


Africa is out of any possibility. Only one or two branches of the whole T1a reached the Horn and Central Africa.

The two main possibilities are 1-Around Black Sea and 2- Around Caspian Sea. Between these two possibilites "Around Black Sea" is winning by far. But WHERE in the Black Sea is the big question. 

Actually, we have ancient T1a1a-L208 samples deep in Europe between 7050-7600 yBP. The most ancient sample of 7600yBP found in the Danube carried around 35% Balkan HG atDNA.
7600yBP are just ~1000 years since the Birth of the main T1a1a-L208 branch T1a1a1-CTS11451. This means that both of the son branches belonging to T1a1a-L208 have been originated not too far from the Danube.

An example, the R1b-M269 carriers with ~1300 years (+300 years) of distance between them and their Steppe R1b-Z2103 brother found in Yamnaya, thinks this is enough to claim a "Kurgan origin". So, if they are wrong then we are less wrong and if they are right then we are more right.

----------


## Fatherland

yDNA T is from Africa, then it spread at the same time to India and Saudi Arabia:

In Iberia is due to Morish conquest, noone from North Africa has been tested. But if they would have been tested, it would show high frequencies, especially across Morocco since I know two Moroccans and they both have T haplogroup:

----------


## Alpenjager

This map is my own work and I can sure you this only show MODERN FREQUENCY not origin. Frequency never could be used for origin prediction without DIVERSITY support. For origin please go to my other work: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

----------


## zanipolo

alpenjager

You are confusing people who view the wiki T-M184 site by placing the years of origin directly under the map

----------


## Alpenjager

Zanipolo, This is standard between haplogroup tables in wikipedia, I have not edited it nor created.

----------


## Azzurro

> Africa is out of any possibility. Only one or two branches of the whole T1a reached the Horn and Central Africa.
> 
> The two main possibilities are 1-Around Black Sea and 2- Around Caspian Sea. Between these two possibilites "Around Black Sea" is winning by far. But WHERE in the Black Sea is the big question. 
> 
> Actually, we have ancient T1a1a-L208 samples deep in Europe between 7050-7600 yBP. The most ancient sample of 7600yBP found in the Danube carried around 35% Balkan HG atDNA.
> 7600yBP are just ~1000 years since the Birth of the main T1a1a-L208 branch T1a1a1-CTS11451. This means that both of the son branches belonging to T1a1a-L208 have been originated not too far from the Danube.
> 
> An example, the R1b-M269 carriers with ~1300 years (+300 years) of distance between them and their Steppe R1b-Z2103 brother found in Yamnaya, thinks this is enough to claim a "Kurgan origin". So, if they are wrong then we are less wrong and if they are right then we are more right.


I think your reasoning makes sense, that is a pretty big find that there was T-L208 in Neolithic Europe, I think the Black Sea option makes more sense as well out of the two possibilities and as to where somewhere in Eastern Turkey, as it seems the highest diversity of T is found in the Fertile crescent that makes sense, also L seems to be found in decent numbers in Armenians and other Caucasus related people.

----------


## Sile

T haplogroup ftom tepe- hissar

I2512	T	*T-CTS5035* T-M184

I2514	T1a	*T-PF7481* T-M70

----------


## Alpenjager

> T haplogroup ftom tepe- hissar
> 
> I2512 T  *T-CTS5035* T-M184
> 
> I2514 T1a *T-PF7481* T-M70



I2514

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2, T1a3b1, T1a3b2a1) (xT1a derived=ancestral)

Most probably T2, orT1b and less probably T1a3.

-----
-----

I2512

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2b)

-----
-----

I1781

T-M184 (xT1a1, T1a2a1, T1a3b2a1)

-----
-----

These T seems to be unrelated to those found in ancient Europe, just like the previously found among the PPNB samples.

----------


## Suleyman

Why is the T so badly studied?? How does it come? For me the T is the most interesting Haplogroup that there is..It is very spread and in very low frequences..

----------


## Suleyman

DYS 393 : 13 , DYS 390 : 22, DYS 19 : 14 , maybe not in the topic, but can someone explain what that means?

----------


## Sile

> DYS 393 : 13 , DYS 390 : 22, DYS 19 : 14 , maybe not in the topic, but can someone explain what that means?


is that all you have

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

----------


## Suleyman

> is that all you have
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults


13	22	14	10	15-16	11	12	10	13	14	30	16	9-9	11	13	20	14	19	30	11-13-15-16	11	10	23-23	17	14	15	15	34-37	10	9	11	8	17-17	8	11	10	8	11	9	12	20-20	17	10	12	12	19	8	11	22	20	16	11	12	13	10	11	12	11	31	16	8	15	12	25	28	19	11	12	13	12	12	9	11	11	10	11	11	30	11	12	23	14	10	11	19	15	18	13	23	16	14	15	28	12	21	19	10	12	18	9	11	11

----------


## kmak

T haplogroup is dravidian?

----------


## Sile

> T haplogroup is dravidian?


yes, A small branch from east India ...a migrational branch ...............the Haplogroup would be also part aryan and zorastrian IMO

----------


## Evil Merodak

During the Greek invasion of the Middle East against the Persian empire, many Babylonians (carriers of haplogroup T) fled to the Horn of Africa & India, while others who fought as mercenaries for the Persians and others who cooperated with the Persians were enslaved in Greece and the Balkans. That's why your map of haplogroup T looks as it is. A good knowledge of history helps you understand.
This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!

----------


## Salento

> During the Greek invasion of the Middle East against the Persian empire, many Babylonians (carriers of haplogroup T) fled to the Horn of Africa & India, while others who fought as mercenaries for the Persians and others who cooperated with the Persians were enslaved in Greece and the Balkans. That's why your map of haplogroup T looks as it is. A good knowledge of history helps you understand.
> This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!


You can’t claim that:
“This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!”
without providing Links to reliable Studies.
Until then, all that you said means absolutely ZERO.

----------


## torzio

> You can’t claim that:
> “This is the true history that nobody will ever tell you!”
> without providing Links to reliable Studies.
> Until then, all that you said means absolutely ZERO.


agree

do you have anything on this T sample

R1543
mtDNA: H1e
Y-DNA: T-Z709

----------


## Salento

> agree





> do you have anything on this T sample
> 
> R1543
> mtDNA: H1e
> Y-DNA: T-Z709


Jovialis posted R1543 Dodecad K12 numbers.
Look below: You can run it with vahaduo

R1543,8.61,0,6.43,0,21.01,9.18,0.27,0.24,15.01,0.0 4,39.07,0.15

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/


Imperial Necropolis of Monte Agnese _
R1543 (200 AD) Culture Roman:
_
... The necropolis of Mazzano Romano, on Monte Agnese, is located about 50 Km north of Rome on the border with the Province of Viterbo and dates from the Roman imperial period. The chamber tomb has revealed the remains of 20 individuals, 16 of which are adults ...

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## torzio

@ Salento

I match the Wels sample


I also match the same in YHRD which I did 2 years ago

Can you check the numbers for this sample ?

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## Salento

> @ Salento
> I match the Wels sample
> I also match the same in YHRD which I did 2 years ago
> Can you check the numbers for this sample ?


… The file I downloaded was too small, … I’ll look for a better file.

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## torzio

@Salento
If the french reddish part is form *Vosges Grand Est*  ...........then clearly this sample fits me very well

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## Salento

> @Salento
> If the french reddish part is form *Vosges Grand Est*  ...........then clearly this sample fits me very well


Project: PRJEB52852 says: "WARNING: DO NOT use the "MAPPED" Runs ..." I guess all .Bam processed results may be faulty.

They're trying to fix them.

... "All the "RAW" Runs are OK to use! We apologize for the inconvenience, and will remove this message once the issue is resolved"...


https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...852?show=reads

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## Salento

@Torzio ... this result could change, ... and as the mapped files are still faulty, I mapped an unmapped raw, … y could be R1b ... and mt U5b2a2a1



```
R10665_Dodecad_K12b,6.98,1.96,0,0,33.96,28.08,1.40,0.32,7.81,0,19.49,0.01
```

Distance to:
R10665_Dodecad_K12b

4.05566271
Italian_Friuli_VG

5.76662813
Italian_Piedmont

5.93342228
Italian_Veneto

6.47427216
Italian_Trentino

7.45494886
Swiss_Italian

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## torzio

> @Torzio ... this result could change, ... and as the mapped files are still faulty, I mapped an unmapped raw, … y could be R1b ... and mt U5b2a2a1
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> R10665_Dodecad_K12b,6.98,1.96,0,0,33.96,28.08,1.40,0.32,7.81,0,19.49,0.01
> ```
> 
> Distance to:
> ...



thanks...admixture fits my father mix and mine

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