# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  North Italians are genetically closer to French, Germans than to South Italians.

## Georgewalley

N_Italian_D

42.6 Mediterranean
41 Atlantic_Baltic
14.5 West_Asian
1.7 Red_Sea



German_D:

63.7 Atlantic_Baltic
26.8 Mediterranean
9.3 West_Asian
0.2 Red_Sea



French

55.8 Atlantic_Baltic
36 Mediterranean
7.5 West_Asian
0.2 Red_Sea



Sicilian:



45.5 Mediterranean
25.4 West_Asian
22.4 Atlantic_Baltic
5.3 Red_Sea
1 Sub_Saharan
0.2 Paleoafrican

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## Salento

When you compare two populations you cannot omit one of them.
You're comparing North vs South Italians, none of the charts you posted has South Italy (except for Sicily).
It’s bizarre.

Edit..
ps it’s getting boring now, I know what you're doing.
You guys never stop.

Edit..
From 23andme:
... Northern Italians have stronger genetic ties to Northern Europe than do southern Italians, who tend to share a rich genetic heritage with Greece...

There you go, Knock yourself out.

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## matty74

I’m a relative newcomer to this. What is he doing? Pardon my ignorance

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## davef

So what if they are closer to Germans? Is having more Anatolian Bronze Age and Iran Neo ancestry in the case of southern italians and Greeks such a horrible curse? Is it something to really be ashamed of?

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## Salento

> I’m a relative newcomer to this. What is he doing? Pardon my ignorance


By skipping the chart of Southern Italy to make its point, It proves that it wants to exaggerate the differences with a Northward Bias.

imo It’s a Anti-South-Italianist and partially Italophobic.

I’m moving on.

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## matty74

Ok thanks for the explanation.

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## etrusco

> By skipping the chart of Southern Italy to make its point, It proves that it wants to exaggerate the differences with a Northward Bias.
> 
> imo It’s a Anti-South-Italianist and partially Italophobic.
> 
> I’m moving on.


Well said. I hope many north italians will not be attracted by this crap. I wonder when it will end. Better address these people to NORDgenica. There they will find what they are searching for.

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## Sile

there will always be differences within countries

catalans v castilians in spain

l'oil v l'oc in france

tosk v gheg in albania

bavarians v low germans in germany

england v scotland in britain

croatians v serbs

tyrolese v austrians in austria

but , as in previous posts......who cares where the origins are from as long as it is the truth .................who is too know what it was like 1000 or 2000 years ago

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## Regio X

@Sile
I guess you're right. There are many countries with significant genetic differences. Still, the cultural affinities may be strong, and that's what matters more for a nation, yes?




> Edit..
> From 23andme:
> ... Northern Italians have stronger genetic ties to Northern Europe than do southern Italians, who tend to share a rich genetic heritage with Greece...


Well, saying "Northern Italians have stronger genetic ties to Northern Europeans than DO Southern Italians" is different from saying Northern Italians have stronger genetic ties to Northern Europeans than TO Southern Italians, no?
So, I guess we could also say Northern Italians have stronger genetic ties TO Southern Italians than TO Northern Europeans, at least according to those maps of similarity based on Eurogenes K36.

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## Angela

I regret it, but I have to be honest and factual here. The differences between northern and southern Italians are greater than those between regions in any other European country. We have incredible diversity. In shows up in fst analysis and all other sorts of ways. Ralph and Coop et al is instructive reading. On some level the OP is correct.

On another level, while there is a genetic break in Italy south of Rome found as early as Novembre et al, they also found a genetic break at the ALPS. We are all Italian.

THE IMPORTANT THING IS: Who gives a damn? 

The only people who give a damn are Nordicists who think Europeans should be rated according to the amount of Southern or Southeastern ancestry they have. They've had to accept that Anatolian Neolithic is OK, because it is present in high percentages in all Europeans, but "Iran Neo" is somehow disgusting. This is a component found in people who built some of the greatest civilizations the world has ever seen. They also forget that Iran Neo is closely related to CHG, and represents half of the Indo-European ancestry they think is so superior. However, intelligent and logical discourse is not the hallmark of these people.

Just ignore these t-rolls and then maybe they'll go back to more congenial sites like that pit theapricity, or Skadi, or Stormfront, or even, sadly, anthrogenica, where they can get their socks to talk to each other and pretend it's all academic. 

I guess the hints from the upcoming ancient dna paper from Italy has them all shook. Too bad. 

Just please ignore him. What they want is attention to fill their empty and dysfunctional lives.


However, such an obvious attempt to be provocative and sow discord merits an infraction, and he will get it.

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## berun

wow, maybe the guy only had sicilian admixture graphs in hand... ? judgements are here sometimes worse on persons than supremacists about "low peoples". Not so different.

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## Georgewalley

> I regret it, but I have to be honest and factual here. The differences between northern and southern Italians are greater than those between regions in any other European country. We have incredible diversity. In shows up in fst analysis and all other sorts of ways. Ralph and Coop et al is instructive reading. On some level the OP is correct.
> 
> On another level, while there is a genetic break in Italy south of Rome found as early as Novembre et al, they also found a genetic break at the ALPS. We are all Italian.
> 
> THE IMPORTANT THING IS: Who gives a damn? 
> 
> The only people who give a damn are Nordicists who think Europeans should be rated according to the amount of Southern or Southeastern ancestry they have. They've had to accept that Anatolian Neolithic is OK, because it is present in high percentages in all Europeans, but "Iran Neo" is somehow disgusting. This is a component found in people who built some of the greatest civilizations the world has ever seen. They also forget that Iran Neo is closely related to CHG, and represents half of the Indo-European ancestry they think is so superior. However, intelligent and logical discourse is not the hallmark of these people.
> 
> Just ignore these t-rolls and then maybe they'll go back to more congenial sites like that pit theapricity, or Skadi, or Stormfront, or even, sadly, anthrogenica, where they can get their socks to talk to each other and pretend it's all academic. 
> ...


None regard Iran Neolithic as "disgusting" I think it's the first time I heard somebody saying such bizarre comment since I've been here. We're not talking here about inferiority or superiority. Some people tend to romanticize some genetic components, but science tends to not focus on emotional bias or some historical fantasy. My point was to highlight that just because a group of people who share a modern linguistic and partially cultural identity it doesn't equal with being genetically closer relatedness just like Utah White Americans and African Americans may share many linguistic and cultural traits it doesn't equal with being genetically closer related, in the case between North and South Italians we share a sharper difference than between Andalusian Spanish and North-Eastern Spaniards. 
North Italians seem to have a stronger pull towards Bell Beaker type of ancestry pulling them towards continental europe where as South Italians have a stronger pull towards the Aegean and the East Mediterranean making them genetically the closest to Aegean Greeks, Western Jews and Cypriots.

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## Jovialis

> None regard Iran Neolithic as "disgusting" I think it's the first time I heard somebody saying such bizarre comment since I've been here. We're not talking here about inferiority or superiority. Some people tend to romanticize some genetic components, but science tends to not focus on emotional bias or some historical fantasy. My point was to highlight that just because a group of people who share a modern linguistic and partially cultural identity it doesn't equal with being genetically closer relatedness just like Utah White Americans and African Americans may share many linguistic and cultural traits it doesn't equal with being genetically closer related, in the case between North and South Italians we share a sharper difference than between Andalusian Spanish and North-Eastern Spaniards. 
> North Italians seem to have a stronger pull towards Bell Beaker type of ancestry pulling them towards continental europe where as South Italians have a stronger pull towards the Aegean and the East Mediterranean making them genetically the closest to Aegean Greeks, Western Jews and Cypriots.


We know that you create these threads in bad faith.

Moreover, Italians are comfortable with what makes them unique from one another. I think you are projecting some kind of autophobia, and you should work on more constructive ways of dealing with it.

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## Georgewalley

> When you compare two populations you cannot omit one of them.
> You're comparing North vs South Italians, none of the charts you posted has South Italy (except for Sicily).
> It’s bizarre.
> 
> Edit..
> ps it’s getting boring now, I know what you're doing.
> You guys never stop.
> 
> Edit..
> ...


I don't put any emotional attachment in this thread. Simply I made a statement based on the admixture chart I saw. Nothing wrong with being closer to North Europe or Greece. What I was originally intended to point out how Northern Italy have a highly rich basal Corded Ware related heritage which makes them closer to Central and Western Europe and some regions like Friulli, parts of Veneto are even closer to some Northern European groups than to Deep South Italians like Sicilians and Calabrese.

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## Angela

> wow, maybe the guy only had sicilian admixture graphs in hand... ? judgements are here sometimes worse on persons than supremacists about "low peoples". Not so different.


You haven't been here long enough to make that judgment. I suggest you find the posts written here by people like Drac and Drac II, a compatriot of yours. It might open your eyes.

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## Boreas

I feel sorry to what you have faced. It's like people took off all darkness in their heart. Unfortunately, you will face this attitude all the time in this forum. This is unpleasant reality of here. 

My kindly suggest that 
1-There are many topic and knowledge in the forum. Firstly read of them before starting topic and probably similar topic was opened before, check it, instead of opening new topic.
2-If you have statement/point, support it as much as you could with reliably sources, It shouldn't be like your first post.

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## berun

@Angela, so the OP must be treated like Drac as he posts X unpleasant matters for X people??? and what, if Drac is Catalan as me may I go to suffer the same treatment?? You are projecting into this forum your own paranoids, a pity, it's less free now. Ok, you will win in this way, surely you wish I mute forever, and others, of course, no more unpleasant theories and thinkings, science will be like you please then, even if not true.

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## Angela

> @Angela, so the OP must be treated like Drac as he posts X unpleasant matters for X people??? and what, if Drac is Catalan as me may I go to suffer the same treatment?? You are projecting into this forum your own paranoids, a pity, it's less free now. Ok, you will win in this way, surely you wish I mute forever, and others, of course, no more unpleasant theories and thinkings, science will be like you please then, even if not true.


You post tons of material which is completely off the wall, imo, and I very rarely comment. Post what you want.

Of course I don't judge you by Drac. What I was trying to say is that if you read him you would understand people like Whalley better, and what they're up to...

If you haven't caught on to what this t-roll is doing then so be it. It's a reality. You don't see how many socks who have been banned are back under sock accounts. I am. You don't recognize the posts that have virtually been lifted from theapricity or even worse sites. I do.

What he posted is old hat. Anyone who knows Italian genetics knows the more nuanced facts, and they've been discussed here ad nauseam. Again, if you'd been here longer, you would know that. Do a site search of Italian genetics. If you knew the anthro world better, you'd know what I'm talking about, but clearly you don't. Fine. Stay ignorant and put it all down to my "paranoia". 

You're also being extremely illogical. Censorship is when people stop other people from posting things. Have I deleted this thread, or the original post? Here it is for you to vent about. Have I ever stopped you from posting, or TBONTB, or any of numerous others? Stop being so disingenuous. The only threads and posts I delete are the ones full of insane rants or things approaching hate speech or supra-nationalist propaganda against other ethnic groups or disgusting insults, often extremely sexist in nature, and usually directed at me, and I stand by them all. If you want to read those kinds of things go elsewhere.

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## Salento

> wow, maybe the guy only had sicilian admixture graphs in hand... ? judgements are here sometimes worse on persons than supremacists about "low peoples". Not so different.


That’s a stretch.
Remember this, the next time someone compares your population with another, and *”conveniently”* skip a step.

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## berun

if you could prove such skip it would be more convenient than point your gun first.

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## Salento

> if you could prove such skip it would be more convenient than point your gun first.


You’re being disingenuous, and I'm not that naive, or at least I hope so.

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## Angela

> You’re being disingenuous, and I'm not that naive, or at least I hope so.


Some people just don't understand that we know these people, and have seen their posts on the internet in many places. I've been posting for more than ten years on this topic. I too was incredulous in the beginning, and only saw the patterns with time and, luckily, with private messages to me which revealed their motivations. I was taken in a lot in the beginning.

It's gotten to the point where I can tell some of these guys just by their "voice". I don't even need the IP address, or the fact that I recognize the "lifted" text from other sites half the time. The only way it could be clearer is if it were a screenshot posted under another name. :) 

Honestly, I wish I were still that naive and ignorant of the reality behind a lot of the motivations in the interpretation of population genetics data. It's not pleasant knowing some people think like this.

Anyway, I'll say it again. Other than some die hard, old school fringe Lega Nord types, no Italians care about this anymore, thank God, so if the intent is to sow discord here or anywhere else, it's a fail.

If it's another Nordicist rock through the window attempt, it's also a fail. Heard that, don't care, it's nonsense.

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## Salento

They are obvious, especially when out of the blue, they start posting weird things on topics that don't relate to them even remotely.

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## berun

the OP could be a trroll or a supremacist from Thule, it could be, but my astonishment is how you come to attack him without proofs, doing just the same as racists when they can even smell negroes at kilometers, or knowing that all negroes are robbers, so keep your money safe.

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## Salento

Your choice of words is inappropriate and wrong.
The proof is in the pudding.
You're behaving as Contrarian.

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## Sile

*some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain.....*.....that's how the nationalists portray them
maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
the first thing nations loose is their integrity

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## Irakli

Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.

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## Angela

> Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them.* Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains.* In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.


The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.

Attachment 10762

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## etrusco

> Some people here act like differences between Italians from different regions is something new and controversial. It is definitely neither of those. Italy is a very geographically stretched out and diverse country and phenotypic differences are to be expected with genetic differences or without them. Lighter hair and eye colour are more widespread on the coasts and darker skin and hair colour is more widespread in the mountains. In the case of skin colour it would only take a few generations in order for significant differences to appear. The question is whether phenotypic similarity is a significant part of ethnic identity and the answer is obviously a yes. Whether the existing differences between Italians are important or not is up to Italians to decide and as long as it doesn't become absurd (like the "we all come from Africa anyway" argument) and damaging to the strength of ethnic identities of other nations, it is fine. Ethnicity is both phenotype (i.e. similar ancestry) and culture. If Italians want to split their country into more autonomous regions, then I don't see any problem, but saying that there are no differences between, say, Lombardy and Napoli or Sicily is absurd. Of ******* course there will be differences, both phenotypic and cultural, but as I said, it is up to the Italians to decide whether these differences are significant enough to actually act on them. If there is no inner consensus among people within one country, then you get interventionist, opportunist bitches like Russia trying to ignite the existing conflicts.




There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural. 
I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt. 
Strange but true

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## Angela

> There are of course phenotypical diffrences among italians and cultural ones also. That is the case also in other countries: do you think that a Bavarian is the same as a Berlin guy. Just look at the religious differences between southern and western Germany and the eastern and northern part of the country. Just look at what's happening in Spain. And what about Belgium?
> Reality is that from all points of view Italy, despite what it is said in the mainstream media both inside and outside of the country, is one of the most homogeneus country in Europe on all accounts, ethnic, religiuos and cultural. 
> I learnt very well this. I used to be when I was younger ( I'm still quite young by the way) a strong believer of the north-south divide. Once I crossed the border I realized that even Lombardy is culturally more similar to Campania than to Paris or Frankfurt. 
> Strange but true


Read some genetics papers.

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## etrusco

> Read some genetics papers.


Pointless: as I clearly said: ethnic, religious and cultural: all these have nothing to do with genes.

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## MOESAN

Wow! I just got a look at this thread. I believed the aim was to try to find out the links between present (for a while) genetic situation in Italy with History, not otherwise. But I'm naive because only interested in facts when possible, not in intentions.
It's true that on diverse PCA's I saw Italy is very stretched, more than any other country of approximatively similar size in Europe. This doesn't prejudge the cultural and today political situation. It's Italians matter.
But yes, it has been discussed already.

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## Salento

I have not yet seen a result more South-Italian than this:



but in totality, South Italians are way closer to North Italians than any other population.



and yes, those are both some of my results.

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## Angela

^^That's generally although not universally true.

This is from Di-Gaetano et al



With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.

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## Salento

> ^^That's generally although not universally true.
> 
> This is from Di-Gaetano et al
> 
> 
> 
> With different samples we might get different results, as in a place like Tuscany, for example.


In my case Tuscany is included too. :)

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## Salento

I Understand that regardless of how homogenic we think we are, even when shown by 3rd party calculators, we shouldn’t take our results too seriously.

Could be just conjecture, or totally wrong. yep

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## Angela

> In my case Tuscany is included too. :)


I don't doubt it. :) 

I just meant that there's a lot of substructure in Toscana. None of the academic samples are, for example, from the more mountainous far northwest of Toscana. I would think they'd be even closer to populations like the Piedmontese one (actually mountainous Liguria), and thus might also plot closer to the French and less close to southern populations. I've never seen an fst done with them included so I can't be sure.

As a whole, numerous studies have shown there's more substructure in the north than in the south. It's hard to understand why other than perhaps drift because they were ruled by different foreign powers.

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## Salento

> *some even think the catalans are nordicts because they want independence from Spain.....*.....that's how the nationalists portray them
> maybe, the same propaganda is used for scotland vote to leave Britain................
> the first thing nations loose is their integrity


If I can get 11+% Brits on liv-dna, and auDNA was used by some as a justification for the split, the Scots made a HUGE mistake. LOL
just sayn’

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## Irakli

> The bolded sentence is the one point with which I would disagree. That isn't the case in Italy.
> 
> Attachment 10762


I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.

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## Angela

> I don't know how it is in Italy, but that is the way it is in Anatolia and the Caucasus, so I assumed the same would happen everywhere else because it makes sense. Mountains = Strong sun = Need of hair to defend skin from damage. Coastal area = Mostly means weather much cloudier than the usual = Lighter eyes develop due to less sunlight.


Sorry the attachment didn't work, Irakli. This is what I meant. 



Italy is a very mountainous country, yet the lighter areas are along the northern horizontal line. That represents areas with more "northern" ancestry and so is a reflection of migration. The yellow in my own area of the Lunigiana (part of Tuscany but historically part of Emilia) has been hypothesized to be a retreat for the Celt-Ligurians.

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## Irakli

Interesting map. How much time do you think is necessary for a people to show signs of adaptation to the climate? Is there a certain time frame within which some mutations will occur (like blue eyes), or is that mostly random and can happen either in a few generations or in millennia? Surely with limited mixing, in a couple millennia at least the darker Northern Italians will start having lighter hair or vice versa with blonds.

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## Davidtab

I believe North Italians are closer to me than southern italians, Germans, etc...several Oracles put them first to my personal admixture... (just to say something).

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## Salento

In a *smaller* regional level, I would have expected a more Center-South linear results.
I guess, that at an individual level, our genetics doesn’t always follow the Cardinal Points in an orderly fashion.

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## Georgewalley

Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic. 

*Udine, Friuli*

#	Population	Percent
1 Atlantic 25.57
2 North_Sea 19.28
3 West_Med 16.45
4 Baltic 11.99
5 East_Med 11.63
6 West_Asian 7.56
7 Eastern_Euro 5.54
8 Red_Sea 1.46

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Italian @ 9.126219
2 Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.654547
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.442990
4 Portuguese @ 10.584799
5 Spanish_Galicia @ 11.117378
6 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.212979
7 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.274429
8 French @ 11.462400
9 Spanish_Valencia @ 12.111115
10 Serbian @ 12.484947
11 Spanish_Andalucia @ 12.540326
12 Romanian @ 13.385852
13 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 13.412987
14 Austrian @ 13.660031
15 Spanish_Cantabria @ 13.936459
16 Southwest_French @ 14.041196
17 Tuscan @ 14.296636
18 South_Dutch @ 14.655699
19 Bulgarian @ 14.721441
20 Spanish_Aragon @ 15.232806

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanian +50% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.372498

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% French_Basque +25% West_German @ 2.469933

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## Angela

Relevant only if you consider the Friulani really Italian. Opinions differ. My Dad certainly didn't think they were real Italians. Too much Slavic and Slovenian in them. Same goes for the South Tyrol. I wouldn't care if the latter got complete autonomy, but they probably don't want that because their tax breaks are too good. You don't seem to know any Italian history: these are "late" additions. 

Now, Nizza and the surrounding areas were and are Italian, and I'd love if they were back politically, but no chance of that I'm sure. Same goes for Corsica.

It would be nice to have Malta too. I like them.

There, now you have an "Italian Nationalist" point of view, a post WWI and WWII nationalist point of view. It's a tragedy how many lives were lost getting some of these areas.

I don't know when you're going to understand that the vast majority of Italians don't give a **** about this stuff. 

On Oracles I get either Spaniards or Balkanites before I get Southern Italians too. Who Cares? I certainly don't. The former are not Italian and the latter are, so they are more my brothers and sisters than the former. Ethnicity is more than just genes. Look at the difference between Tuscans and Albanians.

"Northern" genes are not "superior" to "Southern" genes, certainly not to me. You obviously lack the ability to look through other peoples' eyes and just assume they share your point of view.

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## Duarte

I am 95% Iberian and, on average, I am also a admixture of West Africans with Amerindians (5%).
For this reason, I prefer to use oracle in "Mixed Mode Population Sharing ----> Primary Population + Secondary Population" mode.
The display of Oracle in Mixed Population Sharing Mode - Two Populations - always confirms this ralation (95% + 5%) in most of the calculators that are ideal for the calculation of admixtures of populations of Iberian origin, according to GEDmatch itself .
In my case, I find strange the results exhibited by Oracle 4, as shown below. I place it on only as an example, without wanting to enter into the main merit of the last subject matter treated in this topic, which would be the greater or lesser proximity of the Iberians with the Italians of the north or the south. As far as I know, I have no recent Italian ancestors.

Thanks for attention.

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
North_Atlantic
37.44

2
West_Med
28.54

3
East_Med
11.17

4
Baltic
8.95

5
Sub-Saharan
4.88

6
West_Asian
2.32

7
Northeast_African
2.29

8
Red_Sea
1.67

9
Amerindian
1.42


*Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.875919
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.084557
3 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.363086
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 6.723697
5 Spanish_Murcia @ 6.738213
6 Portuguese @ 6.779630
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.817693
8 Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.959575
9 Spanish_Valencia @ 7.106572
10 Spanish_Cataluna @ 7.740384
11 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.586516
12 Southwest_French @ 9.309721
13 North_Italian @ 13.181855
14 French @ 14.848392
15 Tuscan @ 19.700567
16 French_Basque @ 19.831991
17 South_Dutch @ 21.213432
18 West_German @ 21.421259
19 Southeast_English @ 25.737713
20 Southwest_English @ 25.943127

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish_Andalucia +50% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.562061

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Tunisian +25% West_German @ 4.243699

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian + West_German @ 4.243699
2 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.309890
3 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + West_German @ 4.334445
4 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.384938
5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.396873
6 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Serbian @ 4.468435
7 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French @ 4.478426
8 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.521615
9 French_Basque + French_Basque + South_Dutch + Tunisian @ 4.522835
10 French + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.588130
11 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.598396
12 Algerian + Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.606368
13 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.606632
14 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + West_German @ 4.647876
15 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 4.655926
16 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + South_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 4.658337
17 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + West_German @ 4.662471
18 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Tunisian @ 4.713262
19 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Tunisian @ 4.717680
20 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.717741

----------


## Angela

It's ancient. I don't have any Iberian ancestors in at least the last 500 years. That's as far back as my written records go.

[IMG][/IMG]

It's a northwest Italian/Tuscan thing, maybe related to the Gallic/Celtic migrations.

I get strange matches to New World Hispanics because of this.

----------


## Duarte

That happens to me too. I get strange matches with many Italo-Brazilians.

----------


## brick

> Some North Italians from Friuli are closer to Southwest French, Austrian than to Tuscan Italians even. This seems to reinforce that North Italians have significant Celto-Germanic input mixed with Italic while Central Italians seem like a mix of Italic, Celto-Germanic and Hellenic strains to some extent. South Italians are mostly Hellenic mixed with some Italic, Aberesche and Semitic.


The Friulians are not average Italians from northern Italy. They are more northeastern than the other north Italians. This is the Italian situation in various and different PCA.

----------


## Nik

I don't see a problem in Italy being genetically diverse considering it's a country that stretches from Central to South Europe, it's literally in the middle of Europe, and culturally was 'the center' of European culture for circa 2 millennia. 

Yet, as much as I am pro science, Italians are Italians no matter the area they come from. They have their distinct appearance so I don't think you can confuse them with Germans or French.

----------


## Salento

Friulan? Yes, in S.Italians too. (or at least me)

I guess, I’m an overlapper, I’m Stretchy.  :Smile:

----------


## Angela

> I don't see a problem in Italy being genetically diverse considering it's a country that stretches from Central to South Europe, it's literally in the middle of Europe, and culturally was 'the center' of European culture for circa 2 millennia. 
> 
> Yet, as much as I am pro science, Italians are Italians no matter the area they come from. *They have their distinct appearance so I don't think you can confuse them with Germans or French.*



You had me until the last sentence. There are Italians who could be nothing but Italian imo, but there are also Italians who do indeed overlap with Germans, some of them in my own family, and some of them who overlap with Greeks, and a few even a little bit more East. You can find virtually every phenotype in Italy. What does it matter? "Appearance" genes are a few out of the hundreds of thousands if not millions. 

Giuliano Razzoli: he tells you where he's from. :)




I have a cousin (from the same valleys) who is precisely the same type. 

From Bologna, in the same province, another good Italian skier: Alberto Tomba. 


Or, take these beauty pageant winners, some of my favorites, btw.

Alessia Rigo: Miss Veneto


Miss Liguria:


Miss Umbria: Francesca Testasecca


Miss Sicilia: Giusy Buscemi


Miss Calabria: Maria Perrusi


With the exception of perhaps Miss Calabria and Miss Sicilia, I don't think these young women look at all alike, yet they're all "Italian". 

If you need any other examples. These are the extremes:


We're used to it, but I guess other people are not.

----------


## Nik

> You had me until the last sentence. There are Italians who could be nothing but Italian imo, but there are also Italians who do indeed overlap with Germans, some of them in my own family, and some of them who overlap with Greeks, and a few even a little bit more East. You can find virtually every phenotype in Italy. What does it matter? "Appearance" genes are a few out of the hundreds of thousands if not millions.


I don't really think you're disagreeing with me at all. Obviously I never stated that 100% of Italians look only Italian. On the contrary 100% of the Italians could also fit on other countries but that's another topic. 

Personally I only find Razzoli as an "outlier" but if you can even find a picture of his class (not counting the neighbourhood, city, or region) where everyone shares his phenotype I'll rest my case. 

So back to my initial point, Italians as a group are Italians and North Italians are not closer to Germans than to South Italians. 

Coincidentally enough, I still haven't met a brown eyed Apulian yet as everyone I know personally has blue/green/hazel eyes and all of them but 1 have brown hair while 1 is blonde. Strange, I know. 

P.s. Miss Sicily and Calabria fit perfectly in South Albania. 

P.s.2 The brunette nr. 12 contestant is Wow (I'm sure my testosterone briefly increased when I saw her). It's stupid for Italians especially to not wanting to be identified by her phenotype.  :Laughing:

----------


## Angela

Tastes differ. Number 12, as you so name her, isn't a type I consider particularly beautiful. That doesn't mean I'm "ashamed" that she's Italian or anything equally stupid. Perhaps you've spent too much time on sites like theapricity. The Italians who do or used to frequent sites like that are not representative of Italians. Number 29's look is not my favorite either, fwiw.

I think Tiziana Piergianni is beautiful. She was a Miss Liguria at one point. Vittoria Puccini is also very beautiful, as is Luisa Ranieri. All different, all Italian. Anyway, that's what I think is beautiful, along with Monica Bellucci, Claudia Cardinale, Laura Morante, and many more.

Piergianni


Miriam Giovanelli


Vittoria Puccini

Stefania Simonetti


Luisa Ranieri



I really find it offensive when foreigners presume to tell Italians who "looks" Italian, and who is an outlier.

There are a lot of mountainous northern areas in Italy where there is 20% blondism or more, and where some of the inhabitants do indeed look like Razzano. As always in Italy it's a mix.

You can take a look at this thread about the Parmense. There's a few posts with pictures, then some off topic, then starting at post 17 more pictures.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Val+Parma

One of the young men, is, I think, a Razzano type. More than a few wouldn't look at all out of place in southern Germany or Austria or France.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

My grandfather looked just like that as a young man, and two of my uncles.

Another one:
[IMG][/IMG]

Famous partigiana from a neighboring valley who looks like my grandmother. Nilde Lotti




Another resistance fighter-Norma Parenti


The point of my post was merely to show that there's a lot of variety in terms of phenotype in Italy, and that it means nothing as to who is more or less "Italian".

In terms of alleles, the ones responsible for "appearance" are a small minority.

In terms of overall autosomal inheritance it is however true that northern Italians are closer to some Iberians and some French people, and even to some Balkanites than they are to Southern Italians, although the distances are not huge. Numerous papers have shown that, so it's a fact.

That is even true for me and I'm half northern Italian and half Tuscan. I always come out closer to Spaniards and some Balkanites than to Southern Italians. If there is no Northern Italian or Tuscan reference sample I come out Bulgarian or occasionally Albanian, not Southern Italian, and not Greek either, for that matter.

It doesn't matter. For the umpteenth time, ethnicity is more than just genetics. I'm still closer, in all the ways that matter, to Calabresi and Sicilians than to Spaniards.

----------


## Stuvanè

Taken together, the Italians maintain their own natural position in southern Europe. 
By adopting a "magnifying glass" the Italians genetically represent a microcosm reproducing - in miniature and in outline - the same gradual detectable divisions throughout Europe, each of which shows some more recurrent phenotypic characteristics, but never completely isolated and in any case with very widespread intermediate forms. 

There is a north, with a more continental / Mesolithic sign, which brings it closer to the southern French and the Iberian populations (as Angela probably refers to an ancient Celtic-Ligurian heritage), a more neolithic South near the classical Greek/Aegean area, a more peculiar Center, intermediate to the former two but not in a homogeneous way, because subdivided among Tuscans who represent almost a "continuum" with the northern Italians, and the central Italians proper, Umbrian, Marche and Lazio peoples, which in my view, they would constitute the "italic" element in the true sense of the term, or at least the one closest to the Roman-Italics of Antiquity.


What is perhaps lost or more superficially treated is the genetic gradient West / East, with the "Tyrrhenian" Italians partially magnetized again towards the Iberian / Atlantic area, and the Italians "Adriatic" who are a bit more equipped with Caucasian, Baltic and / or Balkan shares.
So, in my case, someone says that I fit perfectly with the type of my area, someone else notes my nose in French people, others say I could seem Spanish and someone else still says that he sees in me something among the current Greeks, Albanians or Serbian/Montenegrins... Lol  :Laughing: 


This is me (Eurogenes K13), a few hundred kilometers east of Angela, around the Po Delta

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
North_Atlantic
28.3

2
East_Med
22.12

3
West_Med
21.48

4
Baltic
13.51

5
West_Asian
9.73

6
Red_Sea
4.38

7
Siberian
0.33

8
Northeast_African
0.16



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
Tuscan
4.52

2
North_Italian
6.23

3
Greek_Thessaly
9.16

4
Italian_Abruzzo
9.47

5
West_Sicilian
10.14

6
Romanian
11.89

7
Bulgarian
11.93

8
Central_Greek
12.98

9
East_Sicilian
13.55

10
Portuguese
13.73

11
Spanish_Extremadura
13.99

12
Serbian
14.54

13
Spanish_Galicia
14.95

14
Spanish_Murcia
15.05

15
Spanish_Andalucia
15.39

16
South_Italian
15.45

17
Spanish_Valencia
15.66

18
Spanish_Cataluna
15.7

19
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
15.91

20
Ashkenazi
16.22



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance

1

83.2%
Tuscan
+
16.8%
Hungarian
@
1.4

2

83.5%
Tuscan
+
16.5%
Austrian
@
1.57

3

77.4%
Tuscan
+
22.6%
Serbian
@
1.6

4

87.9%
Tuscan
+
12.1%
South_Polish
@
1.67

5

85.1%
Tuscan
+
14.9%
East_German
@
1.71

6

89.1%
Tuscan
+
10.9%
Polish
@
1.73

7

89.8%
Tuscan
+
10.2%
Southwest_Finnish
@
1.75

8

89.5%
Tuscan
+
10.5%
Ukrainian_Belgorod
@
1.77

9

90.6%
Tuscan
+
9.4%
Finnish
@
1.78

10

89.8%
Tuscan
+
10.2%
Russian_Smolensk
@
1.79

11

90.8%
Tuscan
+
9.2%
Estonian
@
1.8

12

88%
Tuscan
+
12%
Ukrainian_Lviv
@
1.81

13

85.2%
Tuscan
+
14.8%
Croatian
@
1.82

14

90.1%
Tuscan
+
9.9%
Belorussian
@
1.84

15

56.9%
Central_Greek
+
43.1%
French
@
1.85

16

55.8%
East_Sicilian
+
44.2%
French
@
1.87

17

91.1%
Tuscan
+
8.9%
Lithuanian
@
1.87

18

89.6%
Tuscan
+
10.4%
Southwest_Russian
@
1.88

19

89.1%
Tuscan
+
10.9%
North_Swedish
@
1.89

20

88.5%
Tuscan
+
11.5%
Ukrainian
@
1.9


*

----------


## Nik

> Tastes differ. Number 12, as you so name her, isn't a type I consider particularly beautiful. That doesn't mean I'm "ashamed" that she's Italian or anything equally stupid. Perhaps you've spent too much time on sites like theapricity. The Italians who do or used to frequent sites like that are not representative of Italians. Number 29's look is not my favorite either, fwiw.


Again, you're not disagreeing with me at all. The problem is that you're too quick to make enemies and accuse anyone of what you fear the most. The "ashamed" part wasn't for you but for those Nordicist Italians. Did you believe that I thought you were a Nordicist? 

I don't spend time at any of those sites and neither on Italian hating threads, so don't make an enemy out of me. I'm rather supporting you and others here. 




> I really find it offensive when foreigners presume to tell Italians who "looks" Italian, and who is an outlier.


So you purposely brought a "not-so-Italian" looking guy and I agreed with you that he's not the image someone has when speaking about Italians, and you got offended? For some reason I can't process that. 




> There are a lot of mountainous northern areas in Italy where there is 20% blondism or more, and where some of the inhabitants do indeed look like Razzano. As always in Italy it's a mix.
> 
> You can take a look at this thread about the Parmense. There's a few posts with pictures, then some off topic, then starting at post 17 more pictures.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=Val+Parma
> 
> The point of my post was merely to show that there's a lot of variety in terms of phenotype in Italy, and that it means nothing as to who is more or less "Italian".


I'm aware of that and I don't think being blonde means someone doesn't look Italian. 

Maybe because you guys got to deal with many Nordicists or anti-Italians that you get defensive but to my knowledge any country in Europe is the same. The larger the country the bigger the differences between extremities. Same goes to the UK, France, Spain, Russia, or even small countries like Greece (big differences between Makedonia and Aegean or Mani), Serbia (area of Nis vs Vojvodina), even the super small Albania with its North-South differences. 

Now a question to everyone about North Italians is: Are you comparing North Italians simply to the Southern or South-Eastern French, or you're saying a North Italian is closer to someone from Brittany and Normandy than to someone from Calabria? 

Then perhaps lets start comparing people from Nice and see if they're closer to Ligurians or people from Normandy. I'd be curious to see the results.

----------


## Regio X

The terms - as "North Europe" - must be defined, indeed. 
N. Italians may have more similarities with, say, S. French, but I'm not sure about North Europeans, hence my previous comment in this thread.
The following is closer to what I understand by North Europe, and that's why I don't believe, I insist, that North Italians are more similar to North Europeans than to South Italians genetically:



And according to UN:



Here are, out of curiosity, my maps of similarities based on K36. Not "scientific" at all. Just a reference.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...687#post510687

@Stuvanè
Well said!

----------


## Duarte

> Taken together, the Italians maintain their own natural position in southern Europe. 
> By adopting a "magnifying glass" the Italians genetically represent a microcosm reproducing - in miniature and in outline - the same gradual detectable divisions throughout Europe, each of which shows some more recurrent phenotypic characteristics, but never completely isolated and in any case with very widespread intermediate forms. 
> 
> There is a north, with a more continental / Mesolithic sign, which brings it closer to the southern French and the Iberian populations (as Angela probably refers to an ancient Celtic-Ligurian heritage), a more neolithic South near the classical Greek/Aegean area, a more peculiar Center, intermediate to the former two but not in a homogeneous way, because subdivided among Tuscans who represent almost a "continuum" with the northern Italians, and the central Italians proper, Umbrian, Marche and Lazio peoples, which in my view, they would constitute the "italic" element in the true sense of the term, or at least the one closest to the Roman-Italics of Antiquity.
> 
> 
> What is perhaps lost or more superficially treated is the genetic gradient West / East, with the "Tyrrhenian" Italians partially magnetized again towards the Iberian / Atlantic area, and the Italians "Adriatic" who are a bit more equipped with Caucasian, Baltic and / or Balkan shares.
> So, in my case, someone says that I fit perfectly with the type of my area, someone else notes my nose in French people, others say I could seem Spanish and someone else still says that he sees in me something among the current Greeks, Albanians or Serbian/Montenegrins... Lol 
> 
> ...


Hello Stuvanè.
I loved your explanations. I learned a little more about Italy and Europe. Italy reflects from north to south and from east to west the same that occours as with all populations in all European countries. Great. Italy is the synthesis of all Europe. That's why the Italians are so European. 
Nice.
Greetings.

----------


## Angela

@Nik,
The OP is a known entity who goes around the internet spreading disinformation and t-rolling southern Italians. A lot of my time here, and on 23andme forums and the now defunct dna forums before that, has been and is wasted on people like him. In fact, too much of my time is wasted correcting misinformation about a lot of things people just "know" are true, but aren't. We are, after all, supposed to be sharing scientific or cultural or historical information. A few of our Albanian posters, because I object to some of "their" t-rolling against Greeks, have indeed accused me of Nordicism myself, so, pardon me, but unless you've been here very infrequently, this seems a bit disingenuous to me. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. 

As for the meat of the issue, if you go back and read my prior posts I already addressed this, and pointed out the errors in the OP based on the "GENETICS".

Northern Italians, according to fst analysis and many other statistical measures, are closer to Iberians and the southern French than they are to Southern Italians. It's a small difference, however. They're just as close to Central Italians as they are to the Iberians and the southern French. I never said anything about Northern Europeans or Germans or northern French or anything else. It was perfectly clear. 

Those are just facts. 

I've repeatedly said I don't think that's of any particular importance. 

I do indeed get "testy" when people say that someone like Razzano doesn't look Italian, when many members of my family look like him. I'm an immigrant to the U.S., but I'm one of those immigrants for whom maintaining my Italian identity has always been very important. It was a difficult transition for me, and for my mother, and not one I chose or completely understood at the time, since I was just taken along for the ride, so to speak. I found and find it offensive and ignorant when people repeatedly question whether I and my family members are "real" Italians.

----------


## Stuvanè

> Hello Stuvanè.
> I loved your explanations. I learned a little more about Italy and Europe. Italy reflects from north to south and from east to west the same that occours as with all populations in all European countries. Great. Italy is the synthesis of all Europe. That's why the Italians are so European. 
> Nice.
> Greetings.


Thanks, Duarte. 
But these are just some of my partial reflections. On the forum there are far more competent members than me who can help you to clarify the matter. Stay tuned :)
Greetings

----------


## Sile

There are too many people on this forum who think nationality is ethnicity....this is an error
there are many ethnicities which make a nation
Italy like Spain, England, Germany etc is made up of many ethnicities 
remember, ethnicities stay forever, nations come and go
.
Just ignore all admixutre tests that have Italian or just German or just Spanish, they are always wrong
.
admixture should realise that north-italians need to have their own category with Swiss , Austrian, south-german or anyone else who has an alpine connection.......the category should be called Alpine Europe ...different from central Europe
.

----------


## Angela

And there you have it, our own resident Lega Nord member. Just remember, they're the fringe.

----------


## Salento

If I tell the Lega Nord, which one of their sympathizers has my same sub haplogroup, they would shun him immediately. 
just sayin’ !!!  :Grin:

----------


## Angela

> If I tell the Lega Nord, which one of their sympathizers has my same sub haplogroup, they would shun him immediately. 
> just sayin’ !!!


It's just so stupid. As if Switzerland would want his "ALPINE" area, never mind the Austrians and Bavarians. They barely tolerate the Ticinesi who are part of the federation. It's typical of some Veneto people of the diaspora. They reflect the attitudes of 100 years ago. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, even most Lega Nord people don't think this way nowadays. Christ, I have a few people in my own family, who are "far" from the Trentino, who vote Lega Nord these days, but it's for economic reasons and anti-immigration reasons. The rest are fervent Communists, well "Socialists", nowadays. Welcome to Northwestern Italy. Most of my mother's family were Communists or Socialists during the war. That's why so many were partisans. Heck, our priests sing Bella Ciao after Mass, and even wave the red scarf :) Poor old man, he's old enough to have indeed woken up to find the "invaders". It's a disgrace to these people and to all Italians to want to be absorbed by them. Sorry, but I had to say it.




Some of the Bavarians might not like it, but a lot of E-V13 in Bavaria, including in Adolph Hitler probably, and probably some "T" as well.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> If I tell the Lega Nord, which one of their sympathizers has my same sub haplogroup, they would shun him immediately. 
> just sayin’ !!!


I wonder what haplo Berlusconi is? Seems Lega Nord had no problems with him.






The profile reminds me a bit of Il Duche. Not sure.



The nose. Even the hairline.


@ Angela are you saying Trump might be E-V13? Cause I never thought of that, LOL.






Hmm...

----------


## Angela

Umm...I think I said Hitler. That's the closest guess I think, based on the dna they stole from his nephew. 

If you're going to guess for Trump, I guess you'd have to go with the most common one in Bavaria. Is it R1b U-106? I don't know.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Umm...I think I said Hitler. That's the closest guess I think, based on the dna they stole from his nephew. 
> 
> If you're going to guess for Trump, I guess you'd have to go with the most common one in Bavaria. Is it R1b U-106? I don't know.


Oh... I might have miss understood the "T". Thought it was referring to Trump...

----------


## Sile

there are some on this forum that have a tendency to bracket people as one stereo type...as , an example
.
these same people think that all germans in WW2 where nazi's.
-all italians in WW2 where fascists.
-all southern italians belong to the mafia.
-all confederate families where slave owners ( only 20% where )
-all usa democrats are communists
.
how many times do we have to read this tripe by these members and or administrators !

----------


## Salento

@Sile Come on! No way you didn’t know you would get a *ಠ_ಠ* reaction:




> Just ignore all admixutre tests that have Italian or just German or just Spanish, they are always wrong.
> 
> admixture should realise that north-italians need to have their own category with Swiss , Austrian, south-german or anyone else who has an alpine connection.......the category should be called Alpine Europe ...different from Central Europe.


Just because you feel a stronger affinity with the Alpine areas, than mainland Italy, you
can’t possibly say to ignore all admixutre tests that have Italian on it. 

Especially to the Italians. ᕙ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ᕗ

----------


## Sile

> @Sile Come on! No way you didn’t know you would get a *ಠ_ಠ* reaction:
> Just because you feel a stronger affinity with the Alpine areas, than mainland Italy, you
> can’t possibly say to ignore all admixutre tests that have Italian on it. 
> Especially to the Italians.
> ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ)


i was saying , every admixture with the conclusion of italian, or spanish or german are useless compared if they had tuscan, sicilian, trentino etc
whats the point of have italian or german or british....what use is it?......might as well have european

----------


## Sile

I think people need to avoid insulting their families like previous posts on this thread.

I did not come here to listen to their families issues/gripes, be them true or fake ............leave it at home

----------


## Salento

> i was saying , every admixture with the conclusion of italian, or spanish or german are useless compared if they had tuscan, sicilian, trentino etc
> whats the point of have italian or german or british....what use is it?......might as well have european


We have that already, at the Regional and Local Level. 

You get Italy-Veneto + ...,
I get Italy-Puglia, + ...

on AncestryDna, 23andme, and so on.

The point for [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡)̲̅$̲̅] all these tests is to know with which populations we share segments of our DNA. Continental, Regional, and Local results.

I guess, they could use better nomenclatures in some areas.

----------


## Sile

> We have that already, at the Regional and Local Level. 
> 
> You get Italy-Veneto + ...,
> I get Italy-Puglia, + ...
> 
> on AncestryDna, 23andme, and so on.
> 
> The point for [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡)̲̅$̲̅] all these tests is to know with which populations we share segments of our DNA. Continental, Regional, and Local results.
> 
> I guess, they could use better nomenclatures in some areas.


the thread is about ...........
how can we even discuss any similarity of italian with french or german?

start another thread then....i will not join as national terms for admixtures does not interest me,...last time I saw italian as a pure admixture classification was in 2013

----------


## Salento

> the thread is about ...........
> how can we even discuss any similarity of italian with french or german?
> 
> start another thread then....i will not join as national terms for admixtures does not interest me,...last time I saw italian as a pure admixture classification was in 2013


While the similarity discussion with the Northern Europeans goes on, I shall change my user-name from *Salento* to *Redcoat* (not really).

Not you, but in a Wider Sense, it seems that many people think that Southern Italians share similarities only with South-East areas, and non Northward, *False*.

----------


## Georgewalley

> While the similarity discussion with the Northern Europeans goes on, I shall change my user-name from *Salento* to *Redcoat* (not really).
> 
> Not you, but in a Wider Sense, it seems that many people think that Southern Italians share similarities only with South-East areas, and non Northward, *False*.


There's some North Italian, French ,Catalan and Southern German input in Sicily and Campania. Sicily was even part of the Spanish kingdom for 400 years I think.

Sicilian_East

Mycenaean,36.2
German,31.4
Levant_BA_North,30.2
Tunisian,2.2

East Sicilians can be modelled as 36% Myceanean which can be a proxy for Hellenic/Greek. the German can be a proxy for additional North Italian, Celtic, German input or anything Northern which requires higher Steppe, Corded Ware related ancestry. The Levant BA is post Neolithic Near Eastern that came via the Sea possibly by Semitic like people either brought there as slaves or came by boat.

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## Sile

> While the similarity discussion with the Northern Europeans goes on, I shall change my user-name from *Salento* to *Redcoat* (not really).
> Not you, but in a Wider Sense, it seems that many people think that Southern Italians share similarities only with South-East areas, and non Northward, *False*.


it is because these south italians want a purer non-germanic, non-french, non-slavic .........but purer italian...the Greek they have in them has already been diluted over many centuries, 
there are forums that have these people
.
what do admixture tests say for yourself ?
.
you have seen mine in the past

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## Salento

> it is because these south italians want a purer non-germanic, non-french, non-slavic .........but purer italian...the Greek they have in them has already been diluted over many centuries, 
> there are forums that have these people
> .
> what do admixture tests say for yourself ?
> .
> you have seen mine in the past


First of all I've included everybody, and I find peculiar the fact that you’ve single-out and pinpointed only that small fringe of people who claim to be S.Italians or partially S.Italians with a Chip on Their Shoulders. We all know who they are.

Those are some of my Results, I sent them to you in the past in a more breakdown form, You used them to speculate a North to South Italy T1a2... migration.

Now it is time to end this hostility, there is no need... :)

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## mihaitzateo

It depends on what calculator you are using.
From a cultural point of view, I understand that young Italians from Lombardia are no longer learning the Lombard language, so they are losing their Italian-Gaulish identity and they become only Italians. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_language
Italy, when it was under the Roman Empire had a lot of non-Italic people that settled in Italy, after receiving land there, as a reward for their service in the Roman Empire army.
So, it depends on what people DNA you are using to make a comparison, also.
If you take Italians from Lombardy and the French from SE France, you might have the surprise to see that Italians from Lombardy are more Northern Shifted than those French people from SE France.

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## Angela

> It depends on what calculator you are using.
> From a cultural point of view, I understand that young Italians from Lombardia are no longer learning the Lombard language, so they are losing their Italian-Gaulish identity and they become only Italians. 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_language
> Italy, when it was under the Roman Empire had a lot of non-Italic people that settled in Italy, after receiving land there, as a reward for their service in the Roman Empire army.
> So, it depends on what people DNA you are using to make a comparison, also.
> If you take Italians from Lombardy and the French from SE France, you might have the surprise to see that Italians from Lombardy are more Northern Shifted than those French people from SE France.


The North Italian sample IS from LOMBARDIA, Bergamo to be precise, which is only 19 miles from Switzerland. We don't have southeast French samples.

There are more "northern" "Italians, i.e Valle d'Aosta and Trentino, but they are late additions, so you might get an argument as to whether they are "really" Italian.

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## mihaitzateo

> The North Italian sample IS from LOMBARDIA, Bergamo to be precise, which is only 19 miles from Switzerland. We don't have southeast French samples.
> 
> There are more "northern" "Italians, i.e Valle d'Aosta and Trentino, but they are late additions, so you might get an argument as to whether they are "really" Italian.


Lombards were Galo-Romance people. They should also have plenty of Germanic input.
So I do not think is very relevant to use a sample from Lombardia to tell that "North Italians are genetically closer to French or Germans than to South Italians".
Maybe it was a more Northern shifted Italian from Lombardy.
If you take people from Tuscany which are still North Italians, those are very close to people from Lazio and quite close to people from South Italy not to the French or German people.
French people are not very uniform from a genetic point of view, either.
I think French people are most diverse from a genetic point of view, from all Europe and I am referring to French ethnics with roots only from France, from before 1800, for example.
OK, French people with more Eastern European genetics are not found so often, but you can find from Southern Europeans till Northern Europeans, as Autosomal genetics, in France.

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## emc

> It's ancient. I don't have any Iberian ancestors in at least the last 500 years. That's as far back as my written records go.
> It's a northwest Italian/Tuscan thing, maybe related to the Gallic/Celtic migrations.
> 
> I get strange matches to New World Hispanics because of this.


I'm glad to read that. It always concerned me the % of Iberian my grandmother gets, given that all of her grandparents were born in Italy.
She is 1/4 Tuscan though (from the Garfagnana), so I guess it makes sense now.

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## Georgewalley

Italian clusters separated into three main groups: Sardinia, Northern (North/Central-North Italy) 116and Southern Italy (South/Central-South Italy and Sicily); the *former two were close to populations 117originally from Western Europe, while the latter was in proximity of Middle East groups*

In the Ultimateanalysis, all the Italian clusters were characterised by relatively high 150amounts of *Anatolian Neolithic (AN), ranging between 56% (SItaly1) and 72% (NItaly4),* 151distributed along a North-South cline (Spearman ρ= 0.52, p-value < 0.05; Fig. 2A-C, fig. S8A), 152with *Sardinians showing values above 80%.*

The remaining ancestry was 154mainly assigned to *WHG (Western Hunter-Gatherer), CHG and EHG. In particular, the first two 155components were more present in populations from the South (higher estimates in SItaly1 ~13% 156and SItaly3 ~ 24% for WHG and CHG respectively), while the latter was more common in Northern 157clusters (NItaly6 = 15%).* These observations suggest the existence of different secondary sources 158contributions to the two edges of the peninsulas, with the North affected more by EHG-related 159populations and the South affected more by CHG-related groups. Iran Neolithic (IN) ancestry was 160detected in Europe only in Southern Italy.
*
North African contributions, ranging between 3.8% (SCItaly1) to 14.5% (SItaly1) 


Admixture date:



Link to full study: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...94898.full.pdf
*

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## Angela

We've discussed Raveane et al at length. Use the search engine.

If you don't stop spamming data already known and discussed you're going to get infractions. Am I clear?

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## brick

> Lombards were Galo-Romance people. They should also have plenty of Germanic input.
> So I do not think is very relevant to use a sample from Lombardia to tell that "North Italians are genetically closer to French or Germans than to South Italians".
> Maybe it was a more Northern shifted Italian from Lombardy.
> If you take people from Tuscany which are still North Italians, those are very close to people from Lazio and quite close to people from South Italy not to the French or German people.
> French people are not very uniform from a genetic point of view, either.
> I think French people are most diverse from a genetic point of view, from all Europe and I am referring to French ethnics with roots only from France, from before 1800, for example.
> OK, French people with more Eastern European genetics are not found so often, but you can find from Southern Europeans till Northern Europeans, as Autosomal genetics, in France.


People from Tuscany are central Italians but are closer to northern Italians (Emilians, Ligurians) and they seem intermediate between the southernmost French/Germans and Calabrians/Sicilians.

People from Lombardy are slightly closer to the southernmost French/Germans rather than to Southern Italians. Anything north of Lombardy is definitely closer to French/Germans.

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## Jovialis

> People from Tuscany are central Italians but are closer to northern Italians (Emilians, Ligurians) and they seem intermediate between the southernmost French/Germans and Calabrians/Sicilians.
> 
> People from Lombardy are slightly closer to the southernmost French/Germans rather than to Southern Italians. Anything north of Lombardy is definitely closer to French/Germans.


I don't know where that PCA is from, I google imaged searched it, and it only came up on some thread about David Duke on the Apricity. Where is that from?

At any rate, this one is academic:

People from Umbria, Lazio, and Abbruzzio are intermediate between Tuscans, and other Southern Italians. Moreover, the Purple, brown, and light brown components seems to be related subsets according to the tree in figure A.

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## Jovialis

> I don't know where that PCA is from, I google imaged searched it, and it only came up on some thread about David Duke on the Apricity. Where is that from?
> 
> At any rate, this one is academic:
> 
> People from Umbria, Lazio, and Abbruzzio are intermediate between Tuscans, and other Southern Italians. Moreover, the Purple, brown, and light brown components seems to be related subsets according to the tree in figure A.


Moreover,

AncestryDNA seems to confirm all of this, by giving that region the near exact genetic distribution for it's component across south Lazio, most of Umbria, and southern Marche; down to southern Italy:

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## brick

> I don't know where that PCA is from, I google imaged searched it, and it only came up on some thread about David Duke on the Apricity. Where is that from?
> 
> At any rate, this one is academic:
> 
> People from Umbria, Lazio, and Abbruzzio are intermediate between Tuscans, and other Southern Italians. Moreover, the Purple, brown, and light brown components seems to be related subsets according to the tree in figure A.



It was posted more than a year ago, I don't remember where originally. It is practically the same as the study of "Raveane et al" whose images you posted.

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## Jovialis

> It was posted more than a year ago, I don't remember where originally. It is practically the same as the study of "Raveane et al" whose images you posted.


Perhaps, but it should be pointed out that people do exist that bridge these groups. Maybe the samples in the PCA you posted were taken from more northern areas of Lazio, Marche etc.

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## brick

> Perhaps, but it should be pointed out that people do exist that bridge these groups. Maybe the samples in the PCA you posted were taken from more northern areas of Lazio, Marche etc.



I think the difference is that the PCA I posted is based on regional averages, the PCA you posted is based on individual results.

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## Jovialis

> I think the difference is that the PCA I posted is based on regional averages, the PCA you posted is based on individual results.


Well, we would need to see where it comes from to verify something like that. Which is why I asked you. I think it might be an amateur made pca about eurogenes results, since the file name is Euro V3

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## brick

> ,
> 
> Well, we would need to see where it comes for to verify something like that. Which is why I asked you. I think it might be a user made pca about eurogenes results, since the file name is Euro V3



Euro could also mean Eurasia, but I think it is possible that it is based on a Eurogenes results, since they are the most popular. However, it is quite evident that it is based on averages. A PCA based on individual results is more like this

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## Jovialis

> Euro could also mean Eurasia, but I think it is possible that it is based on a Eurogenes results, since they are the most popular. However, it is quite evident that it is based on averages. A PCA based on individual results is more like this


Popularity among non-scientists doesn't hold too much sway for me, in matter like these. If find the accuracy and labeling of these user made PCAs to be highly dubious. Which is why I prefer academic sources to draw my conclusions from.

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## brick

> Popularity among non-scientists doesn't hold too much sway for me, in matter like these. If find the accuracy and labeling of these user made PCAs to be highly dubious. Which is why I prefer academic sources to draw my conclusions from.


I agree with you, but there's no difference with the academic ones.

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## brick

This is an academic PCA

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## Jovialis

> This is an academic PCA


Indeed, nevertheless, the initial PCA you post that you said were regional averages can be very tricky for labeling those areas, especially Lazio, since the southern part of it is basically an extension of the south, genetically. I think this PCA you have just posted demonstrates that.

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## brick

> Indeed, nevertheless, the initial PCA you post that you said were regional averages can be very tricky for those areas, especially Lazio, since the southern part of it is basically an extension of the south, genetically.



Yes, precisely for this reason southern Lazio, where dialects of southern Italy are spoken as well as in Abruzzo, should not be considered central Italy. People from southern Lazio and Abruzzo are southern Italians. So I don't expect them to be included with the central Italians. However, these mistakes have also been made in academic studies.

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## Jovialis

> Yes, precisely for this reason southern Lazio, where dialects of southern Italy are spoken as well as in Abruzzo, should not be considered central Italy. People from southern Lazio and Abruzzo are southern Italians. So I don't expect them to be included with the central Italians.


Well, I would consider them "South-Central" Italian, genetically; that's where they are. I don't know if that is splitting hairs too much. Plus I think this PCA is lumping Tuscans into the "central Italian" group, who are more "North-Central" genetically. Thus I still maintain that parts of Umbria, and Marche (south of Ancona) are with the south (or South-Central) too.

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## Regio X

> Well, we would need to see where it comes from to verify something like that. Which is why I asked you. I think it might be an amateur made pca about eurogenes results, since the file name is Euro V3


I guess the "Euro" refers to Europe - not Eurogenes - and the V3 refers to the Dodecad's main calculator.

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## Sile

> This is an academic PCA


if the *ibe* is to be broken down it should comprise of catalans and galicians mainly who are next to north-italians ........can you do this?

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## Angela

Fwiw, I think that in academic studies Toscana is usually separated out from "Central Italy" as being more "northern like" than Umbria, Lazio and Marche, with affinities to Liguria and Emilia Romagna. It's very visible in the yDna as well, with its much higher levels of downstream R1b. 

There is also, I think, a cline in Toscana, with the northwestern area, i.e. Massa Carrara, skewing slightly differently. There are not, however, to my knowledge, any samples from those areas in the analyses.

If you were going to be precise about it, Lazio is problematic. Gaeta and Formia in the far southern part of Lazio were never historically part of Lazio (added by Mussolini if I remember my history correctly), and are, in both genetics and linguistics, part of Campania to its south. Latina, or the Pontine area, was part of the province of Rome, but was settled by the Pontine Italians from the northeast, although I don't know how many are left or who else settled there when it was reclaimed. Rieti used to be Abruzzo, right? I don't know about Frosinone. A lot of people from there came to the U.S., and I know more than a few. They strike me as quite different from people from, say, Viterbo. I'd be interested to see if they're closer to them or closer to people like the Abruzzesi or Campanians. 

The same thing arises for Trentino. You would have to be very careful to get people with "really" deep roots. 

Abruzzo is a mix of "central" and "southern", I think, but quite a bit more southern than central, imo, as makes sense since it was politically always a part of the "southern" Kingdoms of various names. 

These things, which I've been saying for years, are all borne out, imo, by the graph put up by Jovialis in post number 86

I think we all recognize these differences, which are part and parcel of the diversity of Italy, and the various clines, both north/south and east/west. It's just a difference of nomenclature in the clustering. 

Just a note as to calculator PCAs. Much as I like the old Dienekes runs, they, like many such runs, included samples from individuals who sent in their data. That's true for Eurogenes too, I think. There is no way for these people to check the ancestry of these submissions. At least in academic ones they check that all four or at least 3 of the grandparents are indeed from the claimed areas. Actually, these analyses should only be based on people with much deeper roots, but that's another story.

I also think it's very unwise to try to judge "genetic closeness" by distance on a PCA, which even if perfectly done, with perfectly chosen samples, only covers two dimensions. I think fst is a much better bet, which is why I posted some figures above.

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## Salento

Center-South Overlap:

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