# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia

## hrvat22

Historians often point to Bohemia, Silesia, Lesser Poland or Ukraine as the places where White Croatia happened to be located..



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia

http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...y-of-Lviv.html



. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course Date: Tue, 20 May 2014



http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-05/1400615460



Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group


https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap


I2a movement through history

https://web.archive.org/web/20110722...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

Another haplotype among Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now I do not know source of same .... probably is in southern Poland but it remains to be determined ..

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...5UvaRd3c&hl=en

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap


For now Croatian genetics shows that most of its male population comes from White Croatia to Croatia..This means that file of Porphyrogenitus from 10th century which tells about arrival of Croats is true...It confirmed and  Chronicle of Priest of Duklja from 12th century..and Historia Salonitana 13th century...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Salonitana



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroni...iest_of_Duklja

http://www.academia.edu/1231887/De_C...um_et_Serborum

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## gyms

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...783#post105783

The newly discovered subclade, marked by *A2512* (Y2512 is a typo), is downstream of CTS10228 and is definitely "Dinaric" (according to the old Nordtvedt definition) in Y-STR haplotype. But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs _per se_, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

The blog post makes clear that this new subclade is actually marked by two SNPs: A2512 and the unnamed 9853064. Moreover, the Greek and Chuvash examples share yet another SNP, A7134.

In any case, we must recall that besides the four subclades of I-CTS10228, we still have one stubborn singleton, with patrilineage from southeastern Poland.

But its wide geographical distribution is indeed anomalous, calling into question the usual identification of I-CTS10228 with Slavic expansion. Perhaps only the I-Y3548 subclade expanded explosively with the Slavs _per se_, and the other I-CTS10228 subclades reflect a slightly earlier, gentler expansion?

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## hrvat22

I-CTS10228 (age: 2010 ybp)...

This mutation could not be White Croatin origin ..because it is old two thousand years, five hundred or six hundred years older than existing time of White Croats..The truth is that this mutation is ancestor of White Croatian mutation but probably this tribe with I-CTS10228 at that time was called completely differented...

I-Y3548 (age: 1458 ybp)



Yes, only this mutation could be White Croatian origin...

Since behind other mutations exist Croats not just behind main mutation  I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 supports the fact that mutation I-Y3548 is White Croatian origin....

It is interesting that after this White Croatian mutation exist mutations in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Bulgaria etc..This means that from Great Croatia migration went in several directions...

It is also interesting that behind Croatian main mutation  I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 exist mutation in Czech Republic brought by Croats who fled from the Turks...

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## Tomenable

Well, already long time ago I posted this: https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

But - if I remember correctly - you did not believe me back then. This only confirms what I wrote back then.

Serbs/Sorbs/Sarbs/Surbs (these are synonyms, e.g. Sorbs were originally called "Surbi" in Latin) also came from the north.

Many toponyms located in Poland prove it (Serby, Sarbinowo, Sarbsko, Sarbia, etc. - just to mention a few).




> I2a movement through history


This map shows that I-M170 originally came into Europe from Asia Minor.

More likely it crossed the Caucasus and then above the Black Sea went westward.

That was after splitting from IJ - and I went north, while J stayed south of the Caucasus.

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## hrvat22

Unfortunately, the names of Serbs in Poland and elsewhere have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs because according to documents on Balkan Serbs, they come as Bojke and later in Greece are named as Serbs...These terms are related to Lusatian Sorbs which still exist in this area and have no genetic connection with Balkan Serbs ...

Which proves that there is no migration of people from eastern Germany to Balkans and genetics completely crashes Porphyrogenitus and his story about arrival of Serbs...

Obviously this is a fictional story based on the state in the 10th century when Serbs as a rule exist in the Balkans...

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## Ike

Couple of important things you omitted, before making such an important conclusions:


1. You believe Porphyrogenitus' book when he writes about Croats, but not when he writes the same thing about Serbs.


2. You're making conclusions about Serbian migration (or non migration) by comparing current distribution with movements from 15 centuries ago. If you want to prove that today's Serbs didn't come from Boika in 6th century, you'd have to know genetic structure of Boika from 5-6th century. We should also compare various ancient DNA material, for example: (source)

"_The Emperor Constantine III (641) transferred a part of the Slavs from the Balkans (Vardar region) to Asia Minor. There these migrants founded the city of Gordoservon, the name of which gives grounds for supposing that among its founders there were Serbs The city was also known under names Gordoserbon and Servochoria._"


3. Considering toponymy, it is obvious that modern Serbia was inhabited by tribe of Moravians. As you know Serbs and Croats were just one among many tribes who came on Balkan, and to simplify it down to only those 2 tribes is not correct.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...vic_tribes.png

Šafarik even deemed that '_Serbs_' was the oldest generic name of the Slavs (source), which makes things even more complicated if it's true. To get the idea of probable Balkan Croatian and Serbian genetic structure one should probably sample skeletons *from 7-9th century*:

*Serbs*:"_In the Balkans, Serbs settled first around rivers Tara, Ibar, Drina and Lim_"
*Croats*:"_The Croats colonized Nin at the beginning of the 7th century. The first Croatian state community was formed at the end of the 8th and beginning of the 9th century. Nin was the first Croatian royal town,with its period of glory being from the 7th to the 13th centuries_."


4. There is a possibility that Croats and Serbs were already intermixed even before they migrated on Balkans.

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## Tomenable

> These terms are related to Lusatian Sorbs which still exist in this area and have no genetic connection with Balkan Serbs


Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?

Of course they do. All Slavs have genetic connections with each other.

They share similar haplogroups and subclades, at different frequencies.




> Which proves that there is no migration of people from eastern Germany to Balkans


Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.

One group went from Poland to Germany, the other one from Poland to Balkans.




> according to documents on Balkan Serbs, they come as Bojke


As what? A Slavic-speaking group called Bojko lives in Poland & Ukraine as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

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## hrvat22

> Ike





> You believe Porphyrogenitus' book when he writes about Croats, but not when he writes the same thing about Serbs.


I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia. 





> If you want to prove that today's Serbs didn't come from Boika in 6th century, you'd have to know genetic structure of Boika from 5-6th century. We should also compare various ancient DNA material, for example:


It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.




> Considering toponymy, it is obvious that modern Serbia was inhabited by tribe of Moravians. As you know Serbs and Croats were just one among many tribes who came on Balkan, and to simplify it down to only those 2 tribes is not correct.


Croats have hundreds of toponyms and hydronyms that are brought from White Croatia..




> Šafarik


He spoke before genetics, if he would speak today he certainly be based on genetics.





> There is a possibility that Croats and Serbs were already intermixed even before they migrated on Balkans.


Prove with genetics.

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## Милан М.

You are guided by book that is considered didactic by contemprorary researchers,many even consider it a forgery although don't say that with those words,apart from that they all write 3-4 centuries after this developments if contain any truth,to compare Administrando de imperio and Chronicles of Priest of Dukla,Historia Solitana which are also dismissed i guess you have never read those books,our sources always considered the Slavic speaking people native to the Balkan peninsula, two of those book in fact mention coming of Goths but warriors not migrant farmers,who speak the same language with us but came much earlier then "Slavic migration" and if you want to do research on Goths that's another thing,the only name they are missquoted by ancient historians are the Thracian Getae and the Sclavenes (South Slavs),neither of those mythical lands you mentioned,which in fact didn't existed as polity when Sclavenes came to existence.

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## Милан М.

> I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


which are the hydronyms?

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## hrvat22

> Tomenable






> Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?


Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280 CTS3402..Common ancestor of Lusatian Sorbs and Serbs is old four thousand seven hundred years R-Z282 (age: 4776 ybp) 




> Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.




Serbs are never live in Poland at least not in southeastern Poland..





> As what? A Slavic-speaking group called Bojko lives in Poland & Ukraine as well


 Bojkos haplotipes are different from Croatian

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## Ike

> I believe Porphyrogenetus but genetics refutes the story of Serbs not me..There is no genetic movement of people from Bojka or east Germany to Greece and from Greece to Serbia.


Did you even read paragraph 2?




> It has nothing to do with Croats so I suggest that you investigate this and bring a conclusion, but it does not belong to this topic.


Of course it does. If it doesn't the thread starter wouldn't have try to elaborate it in post #5.




> He spoke before genetics, if he would speak today he certainly be based on genetics.


That thing has nothing to do with genetics.




> Prove with genetics.


I am not trying to prove anything, but to say that genetics still didn't prove anything alike to what you claim.

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## hrvat22

> You are guided by book that is considered didactic by contemprorary researchers,many even consider it a forgery although don't say that with those words,apart from that they all write 3-4 centuries after this developments if contain any truth,to compare Administrando de imperio and Chronicles of Priest of Dukla,Historia Solitana which are also dismissed i guess you have never read those books,our sources always considered the Slavic speaking people native to the Balkan peninsula, two of those book in fact mention coming of Goths but warriors not migrant farmers,who speak the same language with us but came much earlier then "Slavic migration" and if you want to do research on Goths that's another thing,the only name they are missquoted by ancient historians are the Thracian Getae and the Sclavenes (South Slavs),neither of those mythical lands you mentioned,which in fact didn't existed as polity when Sclavenes came to existence.


Genetics show that Croats coming from White Croatia..

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## Милан М.

> Lusatian Sorbs have no genetic connections with Balkan Serbs?
> 
> Of course they do. All Slavs have genetic connections with each other.
> 
> They share similar haplogroups and subclades, at different frequencies.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course no. Migration was not from eastern Germany - it was from Poland.
> ...


I want to ask you what is your prove to support this,apart from that what is your prove that then in Polish lands when Sclavenes made first appearance was spoken Slavic?Poland history started In 966 AD, Duke Mieszko I of the Piast dynasty adopted Western Christianity if im not mistaken,Sclavenes are first mentioned in 540 A.D. in tottaly different context,4 centuries earlier! who were the Sclavenes has yet to be discovered,without imagining or even claiming something that made appearance 4 centuries earlier and history of Sclavenes which belong to South Slavs.

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## hrvat22

> which are the hydronyms?



http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg

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## Милан М.

> http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/wp-conten...-s-Karpata.jpg


Many of those toponyms existed very much earlier,do research yourself.

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## hrvat22

> I want to ask you what is your prove to support this,apart from that what is your prove that then in Polish lands when Sclavenes made first appearance was spoken Slavic?Poland history started In 966 AD, Duke Mieszko I of the Piast dynasty adopted Western Christianity if im not mistaken,Sclavenes are first mentioned in 540 A.D.4 centuries earlier! who were the Sclavenes has yet to be discovered,without imagining or even claiming something that made appearance 4 centuries earlier and history of Sclavenes which belong to South Slavs.


*The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations*

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html

Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them fully preserve their genetics and have the most percentage of R1a haplotypes from all Slavs ...That any movement of Lusatian Sorbs was to Serbia it would be seen today in the genes as can be seen for Croats who come from White Croatia to Croatia..

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## Милан М.

> *The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations*
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html
> 
> Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them fully preserve their genetics and have the most percentage of R1a haplotypes from all Slavs ...That any movement of Lusatian Sorbs was to Serbia it would be seen today in the genes as can be seen for Croats who come from White Croatia to Croatia..


Why someone need a movement from Lusatia?why someone should come from Lusatia to be Serb?Serbinum was mentioned in Bosnia since Ptolemy,Herodotus mention names as such many other ancient historians,it is find from Germany,Caucasus,Egypt,Balkans,India,Aghanistan.It is ancient name,apart from that i care less for Serbs or Croats if you think i will argue over your idea that all I2a din are white Croats,cause it is ridicoulous.

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## hrvat22

> Many of those toponyms existed very much earlier,do research yourself.


It's just part

http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/otvoreni-...aslov/vii-dio/

While in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland there are so many place names that are identical or nearly identical to today's place names in Medjimurje, Zagorje, Slavonia, Lika, Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and elsewhere, that it took more than 17 pages of the book to get them all cited...

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## hrvat22

> Serbinum was mentioned in Bosnia since Ptolemy or earlier.



What does this have to do with arrival of Croats from White Croatia..

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## Милан М.

> What does this have to do with arrival of Croats from White Croatia..


Nothing  :Laughing:

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## Милан М.

> It's just part
> 
> http://www.kapitaltrade.hr/otvoreni-...aslov/vii-dio/
> 
> While in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland there are so many place names that are identical or nearly identical to today's place names in Medjimurje, Zagorje, Slavonia, Lika, Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and elsewhere, that it took more than 17 pages of the book to get them all cited...


Of course it will be identical,they are find among Slavic countries,what about the very pre Roman names that are identical?such is Dukla,Sava,Drava,Ibar,Timok,Timachus,Timava, Tergeste or Trgoviste,i need more then 17 pages Safarik did good job on ancient toponyms,find his work and are from Illyrian,Moesian,Macedonian lands,found north?as Trubachev long ago noted,the most homogenous toponyms are the one recently colonized,not in the ancient lands.

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## Ike

> Genetics show that Croats coming from White Croatia..


No it doesn't. It comes from what you suspect was White Croatia some 1500 years ago.

Do you have any 10th century samples from Libice? 
_"For a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. "_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libice_nad_Cidlinou


You should look for White Croats genetics there better:
https://glosbe.com/sh/en/hrbat


Bile Karpaty.jpg

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## hrvat22

> No it doesn't. It comes from what you suspect was White Croatia some 1500 years ago.
> 
> Do you have any 10th century samples from Libice? 
> _"For a time it was also a center of White Croatia until around 995 A.D. "_
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libice_nad_Cidlinou
> 
> 
> You should look for White Croats genetics there better:
> https://glosbe.com/sh/en/hrbat
> ...



http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

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## DejaVu

http://news-bar.rtl.hr/vijesti/regij...om-makedonskim
*Linguists agree: Croats and Serbs speak the same language - Macedonian!

*After their colleagues from other scientific fields published an amazing discovery, and linguists from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" finally completed extensive research on the languages ​​of the South Slavs. And their findings deny even Miroslav Krleza.

- Croatian and Serbian are two separate languages, they are only dialects of the original language spoken by the South Slavs. Nearest the original South Slav Macedonians language so we can say that the Macedonian language is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, but in these countries only use a slightly different dialects. Just all these nations developed their little fun dialects - explained linguists in the conclusion of scientific work.

In the study by experts from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" carefully examined the development of words paying special attention to the words that are not the same in Macedonia and one of the later formed dialects. A notable example of the word "ubavo", which, for example, Croats and Serbs took the word "good" in most of the Croatian or "good" in a large part of Serbia and Zagorje. At the same time the Macedonian words "beautiful" have given a new, completely opposite meaning by adding the letter G in front of it.

- Our research has no errors. I used to think that the Serbian and Croatian two separate languages, but I was wrong. This study and its conclusions are irrefutable. Serbs and Croats speak the same language - Macedonian - briefly commented linguist Sanda Ham.

Renowned linguists add an amendment regarding scientific article. They found that the Bulgarian language is not the same as Macedonian. With the help of historians have discovered that, for the dissemination of the old Slavic tribes Macedonians in Bulgaria probably gone and one Macedonian speech impairments so they Slavicized Bulgarians accepted fact Macedonian with a speech impediment, which today mostly in only slightly modified version.

How are the results of this research persuasive, and it shows as numerous universities worldwide, but the day after the publication was renamed the Department of South Slavic languages ​​at the Department of Macedonian language.

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## Ike

> http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm


Exactly what I'm saying. White Croatia is a region of Carpates.

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## Tomenable

> The Sorbs also showed evidence of subtle levels of genetic isolation in comparison with samples from non-isolated European populations
> 
> Lusatian Sorbs are because of Germanic tribes that surrounded them


^ We are talking about modern times, when "tribes" have no longer existed. 

During the Middle Ages, Sorbs were of course surrounded by other Slavic tribes from all sides.

Sorbs have become an isolated Slavic-speaking enclave surrounded by German-speaking populations from all sides only relatively recently - in the late 18th or in the 19th century. Until approximately the 18th century Sorbs weren't an enclave surrounded from all side by Germans, but were connected by a strip of Slavic-speaking countryside with Polish-speaking mainland (the transitional group between Sorbian-speakers and Polish-speakers were so called "Oder-Wenden", who spoke transitional Polish-Sorbian dialects - while to the east of Oder-Wenden there lived Polacy Lubuscy, as this map (LINK) shows. So in 1700 you could still ride all the way from Cottbus, via Zielona Gora and Poznan, to Moscow, without even leaving Slavic-speaking territories - below such a map:

(Serbowie Łużyccy = Lusatian Sorbs; Polacy Lubuscy = Poles of Lubusz Land)

blue = German-speaking areas / white and pink = Slavic-speaking areas



So until the late 1700s or even the 1800s there was no any linguistic barrier preventing Sorbs from mixing with their eastern neighbours, as they also spoke Slavic back then. Even later Sorbs mixed with Polish immigrants coming to their land.

There was a fairly recent Polish immigration to Sorbian territory. For example according to the German census of year 1900, monolingual Polish-speakers (without including Polish-German or Polish-Sorbian bilinguals) were 5,5% of population of Kreis Kalau in Provinz Brandenburg, in Sorbian lands. Monolingual Poles were 4,334 out of 78,804 inhabitants of that county.

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## Tomenable

> Lusatian Sorbs have main R1a type M458, Serbs have R1a Z280


This is not true, Sorbs have both types.

Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280. 

In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.

Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.

In total around 15% of Serbs have R1a.

Of course you can find also different percenages depending on study and samples.

For example Bosnian Serbs have different frequencies than Serbs from Serbia.

Does it mean that Bosnian Serbs are not descended from Serbs from Serbia?

It is simply the case, that when just part of a tribe migrates, they are usually not perfectly representative of the total population. It will always be a lottery. For example there could be 100 Proto-Serbs, 50 with R1a and 50 with I2a. Of them, 50 migrated to Germany and 50 to the Balkans, but among those who migrated to Germany there could be 35 with R1a and 15 with I2a, while in the other group there could be 35 with I2a and 15 with R1a. For example. After migrating, various lineages could procreate at different rates (i.e. John with R1a could have 10 sons and 2 daughters, Jacob with I2a could have 1 son and 7 daughters - for example), leading to changes in frequencies. They also mixed with different groups of locals in both places - Serbs in the Balkans mixed with local Non-Serbs.

I inserted "John" and "Jacob" as examples (I know these aren't Slavic names).  :Grin:

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## DejaVu

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
*SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade

*In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of *Venedi Peoples* from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html 
It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe *Z17855*

*S17250* is divided further into at least three subclades, maybe represented 3 area of settlement/3 tribes groups: 

* Z16971* (probably White Croats descendants), 
 *Y4882* (probably a Drevlyans and Dregoviches descendants), 
*A356/Z16983* (probably Moravians descendants).

*Y4460* is divided further into two subclades: 


* Z16973* with subbranch *Y3118* and 
*S8201 & Y8942
*second one with a subclade:
* Y13498
*
Lack of geographical separation of Venedes caused mixed population and we are not able to predict on STR basis real SNP subclades. 
But only inside of those subclades an STR analysis is valuable. So it is strong recommendation for testing, S17250 at first.

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## Tomenable

> In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of Venedi Peoples from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), sourcehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)


It is total speculation, since we do not have any ancient DNA samples from the upper Vistula region from period 117 - 138 AD. So we have no idea, what DNA did those people (or any other people from this region) have during the 2nd century AD.

So far - when it comes to area of Poland - we have Y-DNA only from the Copper Age and Bronze Age.

From the Iron Age and from Roman times, we have no aDNA except for some mtDNA samples.

This might change within several years from now, when (and if) this project is completed:

http://ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki...cz?language=en

*^ "Dynasty & population of the Piast state in view of integrated historical, anthropological & genomic studies"*

Such a scheme explaining what is it about**: http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png



This is a huge project - hopefully they will finish this and publish their results before 2020...

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## hrvat22

> This is not true, Sorbs have both types.
> 
> Ca. 37% of Lusatian Sorbs have M458, and ca. 28% of Lusatian Sorbs have Z280. 
> 
> In total around 65% of Sorbs have R1a.
> 
> 
> 
> Serbs also have both these subclades - ca. 10% have Z280 and ca. 4% have M458.
> ...



Which type M458 and Z280...?

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## hrvat22

> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...sea/about/news
> *SNP S17250 divide I-L621 L147.2 (CTS5966) Dinarics subclade
> 
> *In 2014 results of BigY Survey Program give us a new portion of knowledge about a big and not structured up till now part of Slavic languages people I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ which are a remains of *Venedi Peoples* from Roman Empire period (see the location of the Venedi in the upper Vistula region and south of Polesian Lowland in times of the Roman empire under Hadrian (ruled 117-138), source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti (see map below)
> 
> 
> The current state of knowledge about the diversity within the group I-L621 L147.2 CTS5966+ is shown in ISOGG phylotree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html 
> It is divided between two or tree subclades: S17250 - majority of tested, and Y4460 possible a remnant of the Baltic Veneti, and maybe *Z17855*
> 
> ...


Even though there are not so many results for the new SNPs for people from Croatia and Serbia, many of these people belong to the "Dinaric-South" group as defined by STRs and I think most of "Dinaric-South" will belong to what our project calls the I-Z16983/A356 group.


Ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 / 16983 is mutation I-Y3548

http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3548/

That White Croatian mutation is ancestor of haplotype I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882, I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971. Therefore they can not be Drevlyans, Dregoviches or Moravians...Only after breakup of White Croats...

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## Tomenable

Such a 2013 study on Y-DNA haplogroups of ethnic Poles from the region of Wielkopolska (Polonia Maior).

http://www.amsik.pl/archiwum/3_2013/3_13d.pdf

Table II. (pages 3 - 10) - 17 Y-STR haplotypes for the Greater Poland population, haplogroups and frequency.

I compared some (until now just a few) Polish haplotypes from that study, with this database:

http://yhrd.org/search/search

For example Polish individual ID43 had 135 matches including 1 exact match in their database:

"Found 1 exact match in 6,872 Haplotypes. This is approx. 1 match in 6,872 Haplotypes (95% CI: 1,234 - 271,430).
All information provided here are based on the Minimal Haplotype database. There are 135 matches in 154,329 Haplotypes":

http://s24.postimg.org/jsrjw4u79/ID43_matches.png

----------


## Arame

hrvat

The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.

----------


## LeBrok

> hrvat
> 
> The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the *slight increase of EEF when going to South* and that has much to do with geography than other issues.


I has to do with local autochthonous population who lived there before Slavs came, and with whom Slavs mixed after arrival.

----------


## Tomenable

Arame,

That is K6, so it is very low-resolution. Most of Europeans score k3 (dark blue) and k2 (light blue) components. But this study says many interesting things - for example it suggests that not just South Slavs but all groups of Slavs during their expansion absorbed and mixed with pre-Slavic substrates - in case of South Slavs those were previous Balkanian populations, in case of East Slavs mostly Baltic and Ugro-Finnic peoples, in case of Poles and Sorbs apparently mostly some "Swedish-like" population, while in case of Czechs and Slovaks apparently some Celtic and "German-like" populations.

When it comes to linguistic aspects, the study also says, that:

1) Slavic branch split from Proto-Balto-Slavic language already in the 2nd millennium BC,
2) Slavic split into 3 groups (ancestral to West, South, East Slavic) already ca. 100 AD,
3) Those 3 main groups started to split further into more groups in 400 AD - 700 AD,
4) Slovenian is probably a West Slavic language, rather than a South Slavic language.

See here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0135820.s008

----------


## LeBrok

> 1) Western group (Slovenians, Croatians, Bosnians)
> 2) Central group (Serbs - perhaps also Montenegrins)
> 3) Eastern group (Macedonians, Bulgarians)
> 
> Macedonians and Bulgarians share genetic similarities with Romanians and Greeks - especially Macedonian Greeks.


If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?

----------


## Arame

LeBrok

Yes of course the more southern they moved then more denser was the native population. Also it seems that Carpathes (Romania) served as a refugium for EEF. 

Tomenable

It would be interesting to look at a K20 admixture run where Serbs and Bosniacs are present. But I doubt that this will change much. 

BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.

----------


## LeBrok

> LeBrok
> 
> Yes of course the more southern they moved then more denser was the native population. Also it seems that Carpathes (Romania) served as a refugium for EEF.


 The farther south you go the more EEF there is. It means the farther south the denser ethnic population of EEF was, not just Romania/Carpathes.



> BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.


 I noticed that too. The unusual spikes/differences between polish samplings. There are two explanations. Either unusual and coincidental samplings were present or polish population is not very well mixed. According to David is the former, claimed to be Estonians, but when I checked, even Estonians don't have such long yellow spikes.

----------


## Tomenable

> BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.


In next study I suggest they use Poles from Kazakhstan!: :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Kazakhstan

----------


## Tomenable

> BTW David criticized the Polish sampling.


In next study I suggest they use Poles from Kazakhstan!:  :Grin: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Kazakhstan

----------


## Милан М.

Made mistake had my post already.

----------


## Arame

Here is a admixture plot K2-K20

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0135820.s003

and here is the PCA



source

----------


## Arame

BTW on Russian forums the study was criticized for not being much informative. Not answering important questions related to the location of Proto-Balto-Slav homeland also their probable Y DNA-s.

----------


## hrvat22

> hrvat
> 
> The recent study on Slavic people shows that the differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs are very small not to say non-existant. The small difference is only the slight increase of EEF when going to South and that has much to do with geography than other issues.



What does this have to do with Croatian ancestry and White Croats..

----------


## hrvat22

> If Croats have split from Slavs from Poland, shouldn't Croats speak West Slavic language?



Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..

----------


## LeBrok

> Perhaps in southern Poland they spoke some archaic Croatian language but after departure of White Croats, the rest of White Croats took other types of Slavic languages..


Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?

----------


## hrvat22

> Is it possible that Serbs gave South Slavic language to Croats?


Is it possible that Montenegrins and Bosnians gave Slavic language to Croats....??

Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...

Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins ...It is the logic ...Bosnians have not come from White Croatia as Bosnians and brought Bosnian language when in White Croatia lived only Croats..

It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or  Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...xPadU1Rc&hl=en

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap

----------


## Ike

> Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...


Which should mean that they are autochthonous Balkan population? I don't think so.

----------


## LeBrok

> Serbs have haplotype E1b as second in population that has nothing to do with arrival of Slavs to Balkans...


E1b is autochthonous to Balkans, Serbs brought either R1a or I2a from NE.




> Serbs and others have taken language from Croats


In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.




> It is interesting that Serbs in majority have another type R1a haplotype known as Volga Carpatian or  Northern Carpathian, who probably has a source somewhere further from White Croatia...


If we only knew where White Croatia was.

----------


## hrvat22

> In this case both should speak West Slavic language, because according to you Croats came from Poland. In Poland South Slavic language was never registered by any historians.
> 
> If we only knew where White Croatia was.



Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...

*Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..
*
english croatian polish

day dni dni

brothers bratiju bracia

goes iže idzie

holy svetuja świata

territory krajina kraj

wrote pisah pisal

only edino jedynie

Here are some words that are used by Poles and Croats today and year 1100. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%C5%A1ka_tablet


*L. Niederle held that in Prikarpatju [2] used to live with the Croatian tribe poludržavnim structure which was the center of Krakow. According to the thesis O. Šahmatova, Croats lived in the territory of Galicia [3] in the 9th century, and their main city was Džarvab. M. Barsov, toponomastic analyzing the voluminous material, trying to prove that the Croats belonged to a territory that included Prikarpatje, the area of the peaks Tatranskih Carpathians to the Tisza and its tributaries in the south Pripjeta, Dnjistra to the east and the Vistula in the north.

**Medieval fortification Prikarpatja Ukrainian Carpathians and more than a century, attracting the attention of a wide circle of scientists, and amateur archaeologists. During this period it was discovered and excavated more than 200 hill-forts. Among them, known for writing the monument as a center of economic, political and cultural life of the place: Galic, Terebovlja, Peremišilj (today Przemysl, Poland), Zvenigorod, Vasiljiv etc...

*

http://www.slavorum.org/white-croats...-slavic-tribe/

----------


## Милан М.

> Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...
> 
> *Baška tablet (Croatian:Bašćanska ploča 1100..
> *
> english croatian polish
> 
> day dni dni
> 
> brothers bratiju bracia
> ...


The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
Example from Baska tablet;
"Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
"Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
"Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
"Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
"Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
"Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
"vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
"vъ edino" typical for Bulgarian,Macedonian dialects.
When i read the Baska tablet to me is more similar with present Bulgaro-Macedonian then with Croatian.

----------


## hrvat22

> The words that you put here are closest to Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian dialects or Old Church Slavonic,OCS is based on Macedonian Slavic dialect once spoken in today Greek Macedonia,you can find good similarities especialy with Russian cause they borrowed a lot from the same.
> Example from Baska tablet;
> "Azъ" is typical for Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects,Croats use "Ja" today which mean "myself"
> "Dni" typical for Macedonian Slavic dialects and Bulgarian,Croatian "dana" which mean days.
> "Pisah" "Zidah" the "h" at the end is typical for Macedonian Slavic,Bulgarian,Croatian will be "Pisao" "Zidao"
> "Bratija"- "Bratja" -Bulgarian,Croatian-"braća" brothers
> "Svetuja -"Svjata-Bulgarian,Croatian-"Sveta" holy
> "Klъni" typical for Macedonian dialects cause you find "L" and "ъ" not common in Croatian "Kuni" which is to "curse"
> "vъ" "tъ" "dni" -typical for today Macedonian Bulgarian dialects "vъv tъ (тя)dni" Croatian "u te dane"-in those days.
> ...


Slavic.jpg

If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..

In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....

It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...

----------


## Милан М.

> Slavic.jpg
> 
> If this is true Croatian and Macedonian originate from same language therefore there are many similarities... Croatian language today is not same as 1000 years ago, perhaps Macedonian is partly same..
> 
> In Macedonians and Bulgarians exist I2a1b2a1a1 haplotype which has source in White Croatia and it is possible that some words are similar to Croatian words today and through history....
> 
> It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...


Well it's not the same,with reformation on languages many "archaic" dialects went extinct and continue to do so,that's pitty,they choose dialect made it official and majority spoke it,prior languages were much more similar among South Slavs,however South Slavic languages are more similar amongst themselves then Eastern or Western among them,now you have six states all create their own languages,which i call it dialects regardless they "innovate" things to make them as much different,the things they did perhaps when they were creating separate ethnicities and their own languages.

----------


## Ike

You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post. 




> Serbs and others have taken language from Croats who throughout history became Serbs, Bosnians and Montenegrins


How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?




> It is interesting that Slovenian language is ancestor of Croatian language although today are quite different...


So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?

----------


## hrvat22

> You totally missed the point of LeBrok's post. 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you imagine a West Slavic dialect transfer from Croats to Serbians, Bosnian and Montenegrins and then separately transform (in 10 centuries) within all ethnicities to end up as same (but non Western Slavic) language?



What does language do with genes..?

Hungarians are genetically Slavs but they not speak Indo-European language..

Serbs coming from Lusatia but they not speak *Sorbian* *language..

*Most Serbian R1a is from Volga Carpathian region but today Serbs not speak Russian or Ukrainian..

Majority Croatian genes are from southern Poland but Croats not speak Polish..

Serbs have in population second haplotype E1b who has no connection with Slavs but these 20% Serbs speak Slavic... same as Montenegrins..




> So, all of the above languages stem from Slovenian? According to whom?


I looked at linguistic tree...

Slavic.jpg

Here are Slovenian and Croatian from same source ..This means that originate from one language or same source..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...uages_tree.svg

----------


## LeBrok

> Hungarians living very close to Poland and Ukraine...They have 30% of R1a haplotype and do not speak Slavic language...


 Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe. Now, what is the source of South Slavic language? Serbs or Bulgarians brought it in from Ukraine? If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.
There is easier explanation however, Croats, Serbs and even Bulgarian and Macedonian Slavs came from same area somewhere in Ukraine.

Unless we really go back to year 600 BC, the times when whole Slavs spoke same language, then it is possible that South Slavs came from Poland, but we can't speak of any differentiation of South Slavs yet, to Serbs or Croats, which happened hundreds of years later.
In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.

----------


## hrvat22

> LeBrok





> Exactly and we know the source, the Hungarian tribes from the Steppe.


Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from *Lusatia* however genes tell a different story ..




> If you claim that Croats came from Poland, as you claim, than original Croatian language wasn't South Slavic.


How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..




> In this case looking for White Croatia in Poland around year 1,200 for example, doesn't make sense.


I said that some words are similar, but then is not same type of Slavic language..

----------


## LeBrok

> How Croats speak does not change their genes, Let's say that Croats speak Chinese, male population still coming from southern Poland to Croatia not from China...How and why speak Chinese it is question for linguists and historians..


 I have seen the best genetic connection with Czechs.

----------


## Finalise

Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.

----------


## LeBrok

> Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.


Of course the specific R1a subclass matter to solve this puzzle, Like M458 and Z280

If M458 turns to be Slavic in origin (spread only by Slavs), but I2a Dinaric turns not slavic, than indeed, genetically speaking Greeks might be more Slavic than Bosnians.

----------


## hrvat22

> Greeks have more R1a than Bosniaks, therefore Greeks are more Slavic than Bosniaks. This is the logic in these forums. I bet the majority of R1a in the Balkans is pre-Slavic IE.


If we assume that Greek R1a is autohton in Balkans then migration goes from Greek to other countries...

R1a..

*Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L 366-C 
**Vasiliada 520 52, Grèce

**>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295> L366-x1
Croatia..

**Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP295>L 366-C
**Tryavna, Bulgarie

*R-L366YP346 * L366 * YP1450... 1 SNPsformed 3000 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybpmore
id:YF02279 Rus
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L366/

Then migration goes from Greek to other countries, Croatia, Bulgaria, Rusia..etc..

Or haplotype...


*>Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP41 8>YP1013
Grecce

**Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP418 *
**Bulgaria

**>Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029>YP417>YP41 8*
**Russia

*http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP417/
R-YP418 (age: 2075 ybp)

They were brothers, two thousand years ago .. where I do not know .

----------


## Finalise

No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.

----------


## Ike

> No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop. A having 20% of Haplogroup X, does not mean 20% of pop. A's total genetic heritage comes from original carriers of Haplogroup X, or whatever ethnic group carried it in antiquity.


Only if they steal females from generation to generation.

----------


## LeBrok

> No, Lebrok, that's not how it works and that was my point. Y-Dna Frequencies are not a cogent measure of one's total genetic heritage, because they can easily change, especially in small populations.Pop.


 Sure but not in this case. The territory is vast and population is not small. There are no hot spots of M458 in Balkans to indicate explosion/fast growth of this subclade.
All Balkans show 2-5% of M458, and looks like consistent one time "flood" of some people. From known history it resembles Slavic invasion more than anything.

----------


## Slavonac

I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.

Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?

My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?

----------


## RobertColumbia

> ...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?


R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.

----------


## Sigfrido

DF27 peaks among Basques and Catalans. None of these people have Celtic ancestry. Native Catalans didn't even speak an Indo European language before the Roman conquest...

----------


## Slavonac

> R1b-DF27 is most common in Spain, Portugal, and southern France, and seems to have Basque and Celtic associations. All of these areas were also areas that were under Roman rule for quite a while, and that could provide a plausible explanation. Roman soldiers of Celtic or Basque origin could have been posted to the Balkans or could have been posted somewhere else such as Greece and made their way to the Balkans.


I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.

----------


## hrvat22

> I think you too much connect haplogruops to nations TODAY- for example genetics of Croatians are Serbs are very similar you can check on GEDMATCH- Croatians second nation would usually be Serbian, especialy if Croatian is from BiH. And if we speak about Croatians and DNA- my opinion is that researches in Croatia are set up. I doubt that Croatia has so much I2a.
> 
> 
> Very interesting point is that most carries of most commond surname in Croatia Horvat(which means Hrvat(Croatian)) are R1a haplogruop. So it would mean real Croatians are R1a and I2a are Ilirian tribes?
> 
> My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?


 Croats may have a half of I2a but it does not change direction of settling tribes of Croats to Dalmatia ..

In southern Poland is not mentioned Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs. only Croats....


Name, music, costumes, customs, flags, symbols, language has nothing to do with genes ... All who have surname Horvat may have R1a and it does not mean anything except that they come from the same ancestors ... But Croatian type of R1a has high frequency in southern Poland..

I2a is not Indo-European haplotype and now belongs to Slavs and Slav speakers who are Indo-Europeans...

----------


## hrvat22

> I dont think this is case. Here in Croatia especialy Dalmatia we have many Roman settelments and many soldiers as reward got land here. But I know for sure that my family was free for centuries unlike many other Croatians who were serfs.


According to genetics Dalmatia has less Illyrian and Roman genes than northern Croatia ..

----------


## hrvat22

> Originally Posted by *Slavonac*
> _...My question is if anyone has idea how R1b(Df27) came to Croatia?_


Most of R1b came to Croatia or with the Croats or the Vlach...

----------


## Slavonac

Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?

Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.

----------


## Ike

> Prove with haplotypes, Serbs coming from *Lusatia* however genes tell a different story ..


Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_...serbs03_01.png

And you already have a people _there_, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko

----------


## hrvat22

> Nowhere does it say that Serbs came from Lusatia. The original story is that they came from beyond Turkey, from a region called Boika. That may as well be somewhere here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_...serbs03_01.png
> 
> And you already have a people _there_, who can be considered and tested for the ancestry of both Lusatian and Balkan Serbs:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyko



Porfirogenet...
Serbs..
..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the *Frankish Kingdom*..

*Frankish Kingdom...

*Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg.jpg

*Frankish Kingdom* is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...

However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, because Serbs do not exist at that time ..

----------


## Ike

> Porfirogenet...
> Serbs..
> ..."Called also white, who live behind Turkey at a place called Boiko, where they were neighbor of the *Frankish Kingdom*..
> 
> *Frankish Kingdom...
> 
> *Attachment 7454
> 
> *Frankish Kingdom* is much further than Bojko land so border was clearly at the Lusatian Sorbs land...


Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.




> However even in this area of the Sorbs, or bojko region or from White Croatia.. tribe or group of people does not come to Greek and from Greek to Eastern Dalmatia as it says for the Serbs, *because Serbs do not exist at that time* ..


:facepalm: Ok, whatever :)

----------


## hrvat22

> Do you know maybe which subclades of R1b are common in Vlach and Croats?
> 
> Do you consider all Vlachs the same grouop- there are 2 different ethnick groups which were called Vlachs-
> 1. habitants of iliria(there are many sources of Vlachs and kantuns long before Turks came), 2. orthodox Vlach from Romania and Bulgaria brought by Turks armies(I assume they would be R1b-ht35). I think these 2 groups should have very different genetics althought they are sometimes mixed.


I replied in a private message...If you need me I'm here..

----------


## hrvat22

> Nowhere does it say what's the extent of Boika.
> 
> 
> 
> :facepalm: Ok, whatever :)


Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....

There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...


For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...

----------


## Ike

> Bojka was not up to Lusatian Serbs or Moravian or White Croatia otherwise would be mentioned somewhere besides the "de administrando imperio" ....
> 
> There is no path that goes from southern Poland or neighborhood to Greek and from Greek to Dalmatia....therefore there are no people in the Balkans with that haplotype..No one to Dalmatia comes from Greek, as is claimed for Serbs...
> 
> 
> For this reason only one who coming to Dalmatia are Croats and that genetics confirms...Serbs at that time do not exist, they exist at 9th and 10th century as a political unit formed partly of Croats as well as in Duklja or Montenegro...


Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?

----------


## hrvat22

> Ok, so why Croatia of today doesn't unite with Bosnian Croats and Montenegrins under the name of West Serbia?


Why the Serbs, Macedonians, Albanians and Bulgarians do not unite under name of Turkey.?

----------


## Ike

I don't know, ask them. Anyway, what does it have to do with my question, and Croats?

----------


## hrvat22

Southern Poland...

*R1a....

Subgroup: 6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP16 26
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: N78724
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Gierczyce, Poland


*Dalmatia, Croatia..

*>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP39 29
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 97870
Most Distant Ancestor: Soccotta 1600s Zadar County Dalmatia
Marker Location: Ždrelac, Pašman, Croatia

*Common ancestor these two people is mutation *Y2608 ,...*mutation R-YP1626 from Poland is old (age: 1405 ybp)

YP3929 mutation from Croatia should be same approximate age...

Conclusion ...

Split between these two people or their ancestors happened sometime around 600 A.D probably in southern Poland which coincides with historical information about arrival of Croats to Dalmatia...

It is interesting that in Dalmatia in immediate surroundings there is a person with same haplotype ..

*R-CTS3402

Subgroup: 6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608-A1 (another Big Y needed)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 351765
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Ruista, Croatia

*But that person is Serbian origin, and according to legend or myth his ancestors comes from Kosovo ...

Therefore that person was through male line Croatian origin who in the Turkish time become Orthodox Christian and later become Serb but his genes remained unchanged ....

----------


## hrvat22

Update..

Mutation I-S17250 is White Croatian origin from southern Poland..

http://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

Mutation I-S17250*, I-Y5596, I-Z16983, I-Y4882 are White Croatian and Croatian origin from all over Europe..

----------


## Garrick

> For now Croatian genetics shows that most of its male population comes from White Croatia to Croatia..This means that file of Porphyrogenitus from 10th century which tells about arrival of Croats is true...


Do you read serious scientific sources or popular nationalistic myths?

Everyone can believe what he wants, there are people who still believe that sun revolves around earth.

Fourth sides based on a ficitional story, how much more?

Because serious scientific sources completely different view Porphyrogenitus’ story, which is already seen (based on earlier traditions other populations).

I gave what dr Dzino Australian scientist Croatian origin writes about Porphyrogenitus’ story as fictive story, as myth, here another scientist:

*F. Borri* Institut für Mittelalterforschung, Österreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften 

" The article examines Constantine Porphyrogenitus’ (913–59) witness on the arrival of the Croats in Dalmatia during the seventh century. The emperor’s narrative proposes a migration from a *land called* White Croatia, located somewhere in central Europe, and a *battle with the Avars* in order to secure their new territory. *The migration,* _although becoming an important element in nationalist thought_*, is not confirmed by any other source, neither contemporary, nor later*, *being reported only by Constantine*. I propose that the *migration was instead a literary pattern* _deployed by the emperor_ in order to explain the complex developments which brought a new elite, called Croats, to a leading position in tenth-century Dalmatia. "

The basis for the Porphyrogenitus’ story and scientific analysis (of course parts)

" If _we do not know of a direct source for Constantine’s DAI_, a source that probably did not exist anyway, it is still possible to define a *common pool for the traditions described in Chapters 30 and 31*. _As we will see, certain elements – such as the existence of brothers at the very beginningof a population’s history, or the crossing of a river (normally the Danube) – are mentioned by many authors in describing Barbarian migrations_, often of *Scythian groups*. Moreover, from the very start of Greek ethnography, similarities of names in places distant from one another were explained through the movement of consistent masses of men: a unifying gaze related ethnonyms and place names distant in space and time in the effort to rationalize a situation contemporary to the author. _Perhaps Constantine understood the presence of previously unknown ethnonyms only through the migration of a population_. Already Thucydides had explained the complicated ethnic geography of fifth-century bc Greece as a result of successive migrations, mainly the Dorian one, allegedly taking place in the eleventh century bc. Also, the _story of the seven siblings finds suggestive parallels in Herodotus, the main model for the ethnography of the Barbarians of the northern steppe_. Herodotus described an embassy to the Adriatic composed of five men and two women, Hyperboreans from the lands north of the Danube, echoing very closely the migration of the five brothers and two sisters from White Croatia to Dalmatia. It is therefore possible that *Constantine Porphyrogenitus* _found in Herodotus a model for settlement to apply to a population which_, *in his mind*, _had followed a similar route_.

_Other narrative elements of the Croatian migration seem to be dependent on the_ *Bulgarian Wanderung* _described by Theophanes and Patriarch Nicephorus_. The events are reported in Theophanes’ _Chronography_ for the year 680 AD, the year 6171 from the world’s creation. The same _anno Mundi_, possibly by coincidence, is mentioned in the _DAI_, although Constantine does not quote it correctly, describing instead an episode linked to Arab expansion. Theophanes described a land north of the Black Sea, extending between the Sea of Azov and the River Kouphis, probably the Kuban, called Great or Old Bulgaria, which was inhabited by the Onogundurs and the Cutrigurs_. In the years of the Sicilian expedition of Constans II (663–8), Krobatos, who was ruling the region, died leaving five sons after him._ The first son, called Batbaian, obeyed his father and remained in Great Bulgaria. The second, Kotragos, crossed the RiverDon and settled there.The fourth and the fifth went over the Danube: one reached Pannonia, becoming a subject of the Avar Khan, while the other travelled to Pentapolis, close to Ravenna. After this diaspora the Khazars came, submitting to Batbaian and his followers. _Theophanes added that the Bulgars going to Pannonia became the lords of the Seven Tribes, a Slavic confederation neighbouring Avar lands to the west and the south_.

_Up to this point there are many overlapping narrative elements, although no single one of the story lines here mentioned was Constantine’s direct source. It appears clear, however, that the_ *narrative elements employed by the emperor* *were largely present in texts that he could easily access*. The narrative concerning the Bulgar _Urgeschichte_ apparently furnished Constantine with the key to interpretingCroatian history, a history which he was not able to find in his sources because theCroatswere a group of recent formation. Owing to the numerous resonances between characters like Kotragos and Korbatos and the _Hrvati_, the Bulgars, absent in the pages of the _DAI_, offered the Croatian past which Constantine was looking for. _Many elements of the Croatian migration could be explained by this_.

_Constantine, therefore, framed the scanty information he possessed on the Croatian past according_ *to the models that previous authors deployed to describe Scythian populations, in order to create a new history*. Roman imperial historiography shared similar attitudes, connecting populations gathered around recent names with other, more ancient and prestigious ones. A good example, though distant in time, is clearly Jordanes who equated Goths and Gets, a population already mentioned by Herodotus. I believe that the information concerning Bulgars and Cutrigurs was used in the writing of Chapter 30, since Constantine considered them close to the Croats. Even Constantine’s dating of the Croats’ arrival during Heraclius’ reign could be linked to Nicephorus’ witness on Koubratos being elevated to the dignity of patρ_kioς by the same emperor. Similar motifs, like that of the brothers, one of them eponymous, are the same as those used by Herodotus in describing the Scythian past. The narrative of Chapter 31 must also have been dependent on further sources which, unfortunately, I have not been able to identify. *The absence of a clear Croatian origo gentis, transmitted from father to son through generations from White Croatia or even further, is moreover confirmed by the disparate and heterogeneous nature of the material that Constantine was forced to use, and by the appearance in the DAI of two divergent versions, only partially elaborated*. _Through a single clear intent, the different traditions were simultaneously collected in the same treatise in a way which we may judge to be uncritical_, though apparently the _Konkurrenz der Ursprünge_ did not represent a contradiction for Constantine Porphyrogenitus, nor perhaps for his audience either.

*Who, therefore, were the Croats*? At the moment this question is still difficult to answer. _Milo Barada_ suggested that the *Croats were a group formed at the edges of the Avar empire* and _Walter Pohl_ proposed the *Croats to be border guards of the Avar empire*, _developing in_ *an ethnic group only in the ninth century*. I suggest that *we should date this process even later*. 

_What we can affirm with a degree of certainty is that Constantine lent importance to the Croats because he thought they might_ *make good allies against the Bulgars*_, and he wanted to bring this dynamic, recently formed group to the attention of his successor_. The emperor, however, expressed this judgement in a text destined to have a very poor circulation, dedicating to the Croats much less space in writings reaching a wider audience. Moreover, Constantine’s predictions never came about, and the Croats did not become a leading power in the Balkans. The same emperor stated that the amazing military power of the Croats was in decline at the time he was writing, which is perhaps a trace of the difficulties that the group was experiencing in affirming itself. After the death of Romanus II (963), the conquests of Emperor John (969–76)
must have limited the importance of the *Croats* as an adversary of the Bulgarians. Under _Basil II_ (976–1025), finally, both Byzantines and Venetians further undermined the chances of *this recently formed group*. In later years the *Croats were mentioned in the Greek world almost only by authors who were quoting the* _Life of Basil_ or the _Book of Ceremonies_.

In conclusion, we can assert that the *Croatian migration did not take place*, but that *Constantine Porphyrogenitus created it relying on the literary models traditionally applied to describe the* *Landnahme* *of Scythian Barbarians*. "

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick





> *Croatian migration did not take place,*


Prove with genetics...

Historians refute Porphyrogenetus because fairy tale about Serbs.. but it does not refute story about Croats...


Majority of Bulgarian I2a types are mutation *(I-CTS10228)* which is father of White Croatian I-S17250 mutation, part of them has and White Croatian mutation S17250,... this is a possible link with Bulgarians and Croatians or White Croatians in the early days of Bulgarian history...

----------


## Garrick

> Prove with genetics...
> 
> Historians refute Porphyrogenetus because fairy tale about Serbs.. but it does not refute story about Croats...
> 
> 
> Majority of Bulgarian I2a types are mutation *(I-CTS10228)* which is father of White Croatian I-S17250 mutation, part of them has and White Croatian mutation S17250,... this is a possible link with Bulgarians and Croatians or White Croatians in the early days of Bulgarian history...


No.

You can believe what you want, for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all.

However everyone can see what serious scientists write about Porphyrogenetius' story.

Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin, *Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats*, by *Daniel Dzino*:

page 112

" The story of the *arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia'* is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a *misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity*. The narrative is *no different* from too *obviously fictive story* that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, *we cannot see it is realistic, or even original*, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople. "

...
*Dr Borri and Dr Dzino tell us that Porphyrogenetius' Croatian myth was derived of myth of the arrival of Bulgars*, mentoined in Theophanes and Patriarch Nicephorus. Dr Borri speaks about common pool of the tradition mentioned by many authors in describing Barbarian migrations (often of Scythian groups).

Science is handled on the basis of facts and analysis. But science requires hard work. 
...

Of course always there is someone who doesn't want read what scientists write and listen what scientists speak.

There are still people who believe that earth is flat, they don't want see scientific facts, but it is their right to believe in fiction, who cares.

----------


## hrvat22

> No.
> 
> You can believe what you want, for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all.
> 
> However everyone can see what serious scientists write about Porphyrogenetius' story.
> 
> Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin, *Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats*, by *Daniel Dzino*:
> 
> page 112
> ...


Some Croatian historians say that Croats come from Iran, therefore historians can say anything but genetics does not..




> The narrative is *no different* from too *obviously fictive story*


Prove with genetics for Croats, therefore genetics denies your claim and statement mentioned historians....For Serbs is a fictional story, and this is confirmed by genetics.. :Good Job: 




> _for you Porphyrogenetius' story is Holy Scripture, source for all and end-all._


*Thomas the Archdeacon 13st..
*
_The people called Croats...Many call them Goths, and likewise Slavs, according to the particular name of those who arrived from Poland and Bohemia.


_

----------


## Garrick

> *historians can say anything* but genetics does not..
> 
> Prove with genetics for Croats, therefore genetics denies your claim and statement mentioned historians....For Serbs is a fictional story, and this is confirmed by genetics..


Do not be naïve.

Dr Francesco Borri is expert and authority.

His work is very unfavorable for Croats because he places that Croats occur only after the ninth century.

Tomorrow at some Arbitration his expert opinion can be crucial.

Dr Dzino Australian scientist by Croatian origin, unlike you, is wise, he does not want to be judged on the story of a Byzantine emperor Porphyrogenitus, which is unfavorable for Croats, he clearly says that it is a fiction. 

You need to finish faculty of history, and master and doctorate, you should herald the scientific papers until you reach the level that publish work in a respectable journal, for this you need fifteen years, only then you can be factor like to dr Borri.

Writing dr Borri, and authors of similar opinions, sets the question of jus, who has lived in Dalmatia and around territories.

Dalmatia and Istria are the most in the spotlight, in a pile of documents related to Wikipedia and similar sites, appears to name to Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae tribe, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning sheep, Albanian dele.

And so subtle people around the world may believe Albanians here have a connection to Dalmatia and once lived in Dalmatia, Dalmatia word itself is of Albanian origin.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dalmatae

And you can imagine how Albanians understand:






Your thinking harm Croats and this thinking is only in favor of the Albanians and all those who support the Albanians.
…
Unfortunately hatred between Croats and Serbs is great and I have no illusions that this something can be done. They from outside, who worked on that hatred, they succeeded.

But Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are brothers by blood and we know it.

Nations in the 19th century determinated by faith, Catholic Serbs became Croats, Orthodox Croats - Serbs, Serbs and Croats Muslim became Bosniacs, Bosnian Orthodox and Catholics – Serbs and Croats.

We would discuss till tomorrow morning but apparently it is not worth.
…
Dr Borri has established standards and he is an expert, to understand that what I write you would no longer chase your genetic imagination and referred to Porphyrogenetus.

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick





> His work is very unfavorable for Croats because he places that Croats occur only after the ninth century


We have Croatian scientists who claim that Croats are from Iran, others claim that we are in the Balkans 20,000 years


I-Z16983 (age: 1495 ybp)



http://yfull.com/tree/I-Z16983/





> Dr Dzino Australian scientist by Croatian origin, unlike you, is wise, he does not want to be judged on the story of a Byzantine emperor Porphyrogenitus, which is unfavorable for Croats, he clearly says that it is a fiction.


For some Croatian scholars is fiction because Serbs according to Porphyrogenitus living at half of Croatian territory...I understand them..

Fact is that story of Serbs is fiction but it is not for Croats .. For Croats Porphyrogenitus is entirely accurate and it is proven with genes...





> You need to finish faculty of history, and master and doctorate, you should herald the scientific papers until you reach the level that publish work in a respectable journal,


This is my journal


https://web.archive.org/web/20110722...r%20Hg%20I.pdf






> Dalmatia derives from the name of the Dalmatae tribe, which is connected with the Illyrian word delme meaning sheep, Albanian dele.


These people are mainly fled to Albania and Kosovo..




> But Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are brothers by blood and we know it


If we believe the genes we are not brothers we are Croatians.




> Nations in the 19th century determinated by faith, Catholic Serbs became Croats, Orthodox Croats - Serbs, Serbs and Croats Muslim became Bosniacs, Bosnian Orthodox and Catholics – Serbs and Croats.


 List of the Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács in 1526..

http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360/...Du-1526-godine

Half of military were Croatians which exist in Bosnia, along the river Drina, Niksic (Montenegro), sandžak (southern Serbia)...Serbs on this list does not exist..

Evliya Çelebi (Çelebi), the famous Turkish travel XVIII. (1660 - 1661)

Near Foca on the Drina River, in the old town Prača, it (Çelebi)
"They gave 50 Croatian young men under arms for companions". To the Gacko field "gets 300 of Croatian gazija (heroes)". Attribute gazija (hero) could be given only to Muslims ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fo%C4%8Da


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacko


He located Croats in the Bay of Kotor (Montenegro). He states, that the inhabitants of Herceg-Novi are Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Kotor

From the town of Risan army went to conquer rebels in the mountains of Piva and Niksic (central Montenegro), First they arrived in nahija Piva. There said, that they are all clean, true Croats, which gives him the title enemies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nik%C5%A1i%C4%87

Ottoman historian Aali (1542nd-1599th), who was born in Gallipoli

As for the tribe of Croats, which is attributed to the Bosna River, their importance is reflected in the happy disposition; They are known in Bosnia and after the river they are named..

No doubt Bosniaks, belong to the Croatian people, they are characterized as a simple soldiers with kindness and devotion..


*Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (*1506 - 1579)
Emperor give eferman (command) that Roman monks in Budapest, Timisoara and Dubrovnik, and all area of Croatian people are not asking for charity, if this people belongs on Greek Patriarchate..

John Skylitzes, Latinized as Ioannes Skylitzes (1040-1101)
Bulgaria's leaders ask Mihajlo, who was ruler of those who call themselves Croats, who lived in Kotor and Prapratnica (Montenegro), and who had a lot of land under him, to help them and to work together with them and give them his son who will be declared as emperor of Bulgaria "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

wikipedia..
Mihailo, Michael in Cyrillic, the original king of Doclea in the Montenegrin history, chief Duklean state of the Vojislavljević from 1046th to 1081st year.

etc,etc..

----------


## Ike

> List of the Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács in 1526..
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360/...Du-1526-godine
> 
> Half of military were Croatians which exist in Bosnia, along the river Drina, Niksic (Montenegro), sandžak (southern Serbia)...Serbs on this list does not exist..


They were on the other side :)

----------


## hrvat22

> They were on the other side :)


Yes, Croats from Bosnia who converted to Islam fought for Turkey ... their descendants are today Bosniaks Muslims of Bosnia ..

----------


## Garrick

> We have Croatian scientists who claim that Croats are from Iran, others claim that we are in the Balkans 20,000 years


Congratulations.

What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.




> This is my journal
> 
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20110722...r%20Hg%20I.pdf


It is holy scripture.





> No doubt Bosniaks, belong to the Croatian people


Serbs say that Bosniacs are Serbs.

Croats say that Bosniacs are Croats.

Bosniacs deny that they are Croats, and Bosniacs deny that they are Serbs, and what.

Tomorrow is new day, and Balkan bickering continue.


...
By the way, *story of Porphyrogenetius is unfavorable for Croats*.

*Dr Francesco Borri*, who is now a postdoctoral studies, on basis of Porphyrogenetius argues that *Croats as ethnic group emerged only in 9th century*.

You vs Dr Borri, layman vs scientist.

...
Dr Dzino, who is Croatian origin is smart, he knows that Porphyrogenetius story is not good for Croats and he claims that it is fiction, myth.

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick






> Congratulations.
> 
> What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.


These historians who claim that Croats live in the Balkans 20,000 years have used 10 year old genetics research...today is completely different and genetics proves migration of Croats from White Croatia to Dalmatia ...




> It is holy scripture.


99.9% accurate, historical records may or may not be accurate but genetics is exact





> Serbs say that Bosniacs are Serbs.



Take Genetics and prove it




> Tomorrow is new day, and Balkan bickering continue.


There is no need to be nervous, sir, genetics is here to help, as well as aspirin ..hahaha





> You vs Dr Borri, layman vs scientist.


Genetics alone against all, and we will see who would win

----------


## DuPidh

> Congratulations.
> 
> What scientists know? They write something unintelligible. There are amateurs to enlighten them.
> 
> 
> 
> It is holy scripture.
> 
> 
> ...


Here is my opinion. Not scientific, just personal.
Bosnia's are not Slavic Serbs, neither Croats. They are largely pre-Slavic population that lost their language as the result of invaders but kept their conscious as not Slavs. Physically many Bosnia-ks resemble Albanians. Of course the Slavic element is present there but in smaller percentage. I base my assumption in the relatively low R1A haplo among Bosnians.
Croats of Dalmatia are closer to Bosnia's. Serbs and the rest of Croats are more or less the same, with religious differences.

----------


## Garrick

> These historians who claim that Croats live in the Balkans 20,000 years have used 10 year old genetics research...today is completely different and genetics proves migration of Croats from White Croatia to Dalmatia ...
> 
> 99.9% accurate, historical records may or may not be accurate but genetics is exact
> 
> Take Genetics and prove it
> 
> There is no need to be nervous, sir, genetics is here to help, as well as aspirin ..hahaha
> 
> Genetics alone against all, and we will see who would win


Childish (not offense).

Selection of Porphyrogenitus as a key starting point is wrong.

And Croatian historians don’t appreciate Porphyrogenitus.

About Croat-Serb border
For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:

From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and Chlebena becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.

According to Porphyrogenitus unambiguously situation is :



This means that Bosnia is Serbian county and it is in Serbia. And Pagania, Zachumia, Terebunia are Serbian lands too.

For example Porphyrogenitus says: “Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs”.

But for Croats is much better what dr Dzino, historian of Croatian origin says that story of Porphyrogenetius is fiction, myth.

Porphyrogenetius is unfavourable for Croats.

Everyone can see, Croats as ethnic group emerged in ninth century, according dr Francesco Borri who argues it based on story of Porphyrogenitus.

...
I will not think if you Croat, or Serb from Croatia etc.

Also, I will not be defender of Croats, or Serbs.

I only say that your choice of Porphyrogenitus is wrong, and whole your story based on Porphyrogenitus

Building tower in the air (about genetics), without foundation (Porphyrogenitus).

...
As for the selection of Ken Nortvedt, one source is insufficient, you should a lot of sources. Although he is respectable, but what you put it was not published in a scientific paper.

It would be proper to seek scientific papers in relevant journals, for example the European Journal of Human Genetics, the American Journal of Physical Anthropology etc.

----------


## hrvat22

> Childish (not offense).
> 
> Selection of Porphyrogenitus as a key starting point is wrong.
> 
> And Croatian historians don’t appreciate Porphyrogenitus.
> 
> About Croat-Serb border
> For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:
> 
> ...


 Porphyrogenitos file on Serbs has not been confirmed with genes ..

therefore these people do not exist today in the Balkans..

----------


## hrvat22

I used movement of haplogroup I from 2011 .. Here is map from year 2013..

http://i.imgur.com/3JEYtfw.png?1

For now it is clear that in the Balkans comes a group of people from one place (I2a) ... which concludes that on Balkans could only come Croats because historical records agree with that..

It's for area of former Yugoslavia...

----------


## Milan

I very much doubt about white Croatia cause that is a myth,the name Croat-Hrvat is unexplained itself,note the name of Bulgarian ruler of Old Great Bulgaria that was in that area,Can you make your mind where it was then?Germany,Ukraine,Poland not located to this day more.Bulgarian theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group,in modern times Walter Pohl,As such, Croatian name would not be an ethnonym, but a social designation for a group of elite warriors which ruled,among others.The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne The ring was inscribed in Greek "Chouvr(á)tou patr(i)k(íou)", indicating the dignity of patrikios that he had achieved in the Roman world, In the Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers Kubrat is mentioned as Kvrt,see Kubrat ring inscriptions HRTV,the nobility of early Croatia could be link with him?

----------


## hrvat22

> I very much doubt about white Croatia cause that is a myth,the name Croat-Hrvat is unexplained itself,note the name of Bulgarian ruler of Old Great Bulgaria that was in that area,Can you make your mind where it was then?Germany,Ukraine,Poland not located to this day more.Bulgarian theory, dates to the late 19th and early 20th century when John Bagnell Bury noted the similarity between Croatian legend of five brothers (and two sisters) with Bulgarian legend of Kubrat's five sons.He considered that the White Croats' Chrobatos and Bulgars' Kubrat were the same person from the Bulgars ethnic group,in modern times Walter Pohl,As such, Croatian name would not be an ethnonym, but a social designation for a group of elite warriors which ruled,among others.The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne The ring was inscribed in Greek "Chouvr(á)tou patr(i)k(íou)", indicating the dignity of patrikios that he had achieved in the Roman world, In the Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers Kubrat is mentioned as Kvrt,see Kubrat ring inscriptions HRTV,the nobility of early Croatia could be link with him?



I do not know much about genetics of Bulgarians, Bulgarian I2a mostly originate in southern Poland and there may be connection with White Croats..First haplotype in Bulgarians is E1b, so Bulgarians are mixed population, in wider Carpathian, Ukrainian, Polish territory there are some Croats and their influence so it's possible connection with Bulgarians.

If some Croats appear in Bulgaria does not mean that Croats coming from Bulgaria. Croats to Balkan come from southern Poland and western Ukraine and it is genetic fact, Serbs coming from a place neighboring White Croats to Greece and from Greece to west Balkans, unfortunately today in west Balkans does not exist mutation which proves mentioned arrival of Serbs.

----------


## Milan

You mix much genetics with ethnonym as well one people ethnogenesis as a whole,because nowadays Romania bear a name of Rome,doesn't mean their population resemble in genetics the early people of Rome.

----------


## binx

White Croats?

----------


## hrvat22

> White Croats?



White Croats

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

----------


## LeBrok

> White Croats
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats





> The epithets "white" for Croats and their homeland Croatia, as well "great" (_megali) for Croatia, is in relation to the symbolism used in ancient times. The epithet "white" is related to the use of colors for cardinal directions among Eurasian people. It meant "Western Croats", in comparison to lands where they lived before. The epithet "great" signified "subsequently populated" land, but also "old, ancient, former"[17] homeland for newly arrived Croats to the Roman province of Dalmatia.[18][19][20]_


According to this White Croatia wasn't the original land of Croats at all. Being called White means that they were already on a move to current location, West from original position. Perhaps even in current or very close to current location, West location, White location.

----------


## hrvat22

> According to this White Croatia wasn't the original land of Croats at all. Being called White means that they were already on a move to current location, West from original position. Perhaps even in current or very close to current location, West location, White location.


Some think that term White means young because in the Slavic terminology white means young, old Croatia or Great Croatia was in the wider area of Carpathians, Ukraine and Poland and White Croatia is only her young remainder in southern Poland.

However genetics will show migration in that area and
after that we will be smarter because everything else is thinking which may or may not be accurate.

----------


## hrvat22

> http://news-bar.rtl.hr/vijesti/regij...om-makedonskim
> *Linguists agree: Croats and Serbs speak the same language - Macedonian!
> 
> *After their colleagues from other scientific fields published an amazing discovery, and linguists from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" finally completed extensive research on the languages ​​of the South Slavs. And their findings deny even Miroslav Krleza.
> 
> - Croatian and Serbian are two separate languages, they are only dialects of the original language spoken by the South Slavs. Nearest the original South Slav Macedonians language so we can say that the Macedonian language is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, but in these countries only use a slightly different dialects. Just all these nations developed their little fun dialects - explained linguists in the conclusion of scientific work.
> 
> In the study by experts from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic" carefully examined the development of words paying special attention to the words that are not the same in Macedonia and one of the later formed dialects. A notable example of the word "ubavo", which, for example, Croats and Serbs took the word "good" in most of the Croatian or "good" in a large part of Serbia and Zagorje. At the same time the Macedonian words "beautiful" have given a new, completely opposite meaning by adding the letter G in front of it.
> 
> ...





> In the study by experts from the Institute "Franjo Arapovic"


Franjo Arapovic is a Croatian basketball player.

Your statement is from satirical Croatian portal.

----------


## hrvat22

For now, this is https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/ White Croatian mutation.

All behind it are White Croatian origin by the male line.




> Ethnonyms Croat in toponymia..
> 
> When it comes to toponyms with a motivated Croatian name outside of Croatia, it is worth mentioning the village Hrvati (Croats) near Tuzla and Kladnja (Bosnia), as well as the Gornji i Donji Hrvati (Upper and Lower Croats) near Zvornik (Bosnia) in Podrinje(border between Bosnia and Serbia) from where the last Catholics left in Srijem and Bačka (Serbia) at the beginning of the 18th century. Under Avala(hill) in Belgrade (capital city of Serbia) until the 19th century there was exist Rvatsko Selo (Croatian village) at the beginning of the 19th century. On the way between Novi Pazar on Sandzak (Serbia) and Leposavic in Kosovo lies village Hrvatska (Croatia), and village Hrvatske Mohve (Croatian Mohve, after 1945 the village was renamed to Vučje Lokve). Near Podgorica ( capital of Montenegro) there was village of Rvatska Stubica (Croatian Stubica). In the area of ​ former Red Croatia (Part of Bosnia and Hecegovina, Montenegro and part of Albania) Croatian name was quite common during the Ottoman rule. Thus Spičani (the inhabitants of the area between Budva and Bar(Montenegro)) called themselves Red Croats, Porta called them Croats and their leader Croat. The Croatian name in the toponym is also confirmed in Ohrid, Prespa and Bitola (Macedonia), near the Marathon Field(Greece) and not far from Mycenae(Greece),


In all these areas there are also I2a types with mutation I-S17250.

----------


## hrvat22

Update.. 





> _May 4, 2017_
> _In fact there is still only one known man who is CTS10228+ S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-, he has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland._


_

_
https://i2aproject.blogspot.hr/2017/...621-and-i.html





Subclade _CTS10228_ is ancestor of White Croatian subclade https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

----------


## hrvat22

> _Stiljsko, southwestern Ukraine ..From VI. until the 9th century_
> _of this micro-region in intercourse_
> _rivers Barvinka, Ilovac, Kolodnica and_
> _The tooth, which is left by Dnjistra,_
> _gave insight into existence in IX. one_
> _of the largest in East Timor_
> _a region with a strong fortified Croatian_
> _city. Its fortified area_
> _it is almost 250 ha long and the length of the defenses_
> ...



https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...ak_jezik=17599

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiljsko

----------


## hrvat22

Ethnonym Croatian at Azov 


> Among the names on the tablets are those of three men: Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Those names scholars interpret as anthroponyms of the Croatian ethnonym _Hrvat._


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais_Tablets

For now around Azov there are this branches of I2a. 

: *I2a2 'Dinaric-S' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196 probably S17250+ and PH908+

**I2a2 'Dinaric-Unassigned' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196

**I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>S17250>Y4882 (I-Y4882)

**I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>S17250>Y4882 (I-Y4882)

**I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>A6105 (I-A6105

**I2a2 'Dinaric-N' (I-CTS10228>S20602/YP196)

*https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap




> The Tablet A is the larger and older inscription, dated to 175-211 AD


If it is established that mentioned subclades come to the area of Azov before (175-211 AD) it would in fact mean that these subclades brought Croatian ethnonym to Azov and that Croatian ethnonym exist in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine before two thousand years.




> The personal names on the Tanais Tablets are considered as a proto-type of a certain ethnonym of a Sarmatian tribe those persons did descend from,] and as well today is generally accepted that the Croatian name is of Iranian origin and that can be traced to the Tanains Tablets.




If it turns out that these I2a subclades came before (175-211 AD) to Azov and that there was no return migration(Croatian name) to White Croatia it would in fact mean that .. The origin hypotheses of the Croats, Iranian theory is not true.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin..._of_the_Croats

----------


## hrvat22

> In 1861, in the statistical data about population in Volhynia governorship released by Mikhail Lebedkin, were counted Horvati with 17,228 people.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats




> Volýn) is a historic region in Central and Eastern Europe straddling Poland, Ukraine and Belarus


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynia

We have one person with I2a I-S17250 in this area, Ukraine (id:YF01658)

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y12911/

https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/

Common male ancestor with today Croatians that person has in subclade I-S17250 ( (White Croatia) which in fact means that migration of White Croatians to Volhynia probably starts parallel with beginning of Slavic migration to Balkans or possible in a later period.

It is also interesting to find Sungir 6 male in the same branch with Volhynia mutation.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/




> DNA analysis shows that the medieval individual Sungir 6 (730-850 cal BP) belong to mtDNA Haplogroup W3a1 and Y-DNA Haplogroup I2a1b2.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sungir




> The calls show that Sungir 6 belonged to Y haplogroup I2a1b2a1a1a1a3-A16681.


https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-for-sungir-6/

That person (Sungir 6) also has male ancestor(I-S17250) in White Croatia.

----------


## hrvat22

For now in Southeast Poland we have subclade I-Y3120 an ancestor of White Croatian subclade I-S17250




> *I-S20602
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196 (S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-) (I-S20602/YP196*)
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 56266
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Gmina Dębica, Poland*



In this area we also have a ancestor of subclade I-Y3120




> *I-CTS4002
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Disles B' (I-CTS4002*) P37+ M423+ L621+ CTS10936+ CTS4002+ FGC20479- CTS10228-
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: N113464
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Moskorzew, Poland*


https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS4002/

----------


## hrvat22

I was exploring surname Horvat in Europe and here's what we have for now.




> R1a
> 
> Vaclav Charvat, b. 1894 Czech Republic R-L260 Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337
> 
> Primož Hrovatin, b. 1780 Slovenia R-M512 
> 
> Z282>PF6155>M458>PF7521>L260>YP1337
> 
> Andras Endre Horvath, b.c.1920 Menfo,Gyor,Hungary Hungary  R-M512
> ...





> 226920 Horvath Austria I2a-P37
> 325181 Horvath Hungary R1b-M269
> N59833 Horvat Croatia I1-M253
> 650445 Horváth Hungary J-FGC41825
> N49136 Horvat Slovenia R1a-M198
> 28392 Horvat Slovakia R1a-M198
> 314821 Horvath Hungary Q-M242
> 328212 Horvath USA I2a2a-M223


In the first group quoted we have a common ancestor R-L260 (4500 ybp) https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L260/ Horvat from Hungary has sub-branch YP256 and Horvat from Slovenia and Czech Republic has sub-branch YP1337 since these two mutations are same age(2400 ybp) they probably have same source somewhere in Poland.

In the sub-branch YP1337 where iz Horvat from Czech Republic and Horvat from Slovenia there are two subclades in Croatia in Zadar County https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y132940/

What are the options?

Possible Croatian migration in the Turkish period.

But there is also a possibility of White Croatian migration in the later period when R1a M458 is mixed with remaining White Croats in South Poland and then they migrate to the surrounding countries. Why?? Because Croats in Croatia have less R1a M458, and it is strange that in such wide area persons with surname Horvat has this R1a M458. Normally there is a possibility that in northwestern Croatia R1a M458 prevails before arrival of the Turks.

In any case in the future we will know more.

----------


## hrvat22

Rovinj, Istria, Croatia




> R-M198
> 
> Subgroup: >Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP234>YP29 5 (YP295 not tested; Big Y or Z280 SNP Pack needed)
> 
> Name: Not Disclosed


Mostar, Herzegovina




> Subgroup:>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP2 34>YP295>L366-B (Big Y needed)
> 
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 251078
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Mostar, Bósnia-Herzegovina


Gacko, eastern Herzegovina




> Subgroup:>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP235>YP2 34>YP295>L366-x1 (L366, more STRs and/or Big Y needed)
> 
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 388203
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Гацко, Босна и Херцеговина


These people are in the branch https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP235/

It is interesting that in this branch there is a mutation R-Y17488 with the person in the Lviv province, southwestern Ukraine .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Oblast

And person in southern Poland in Svetokriška.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A...ie_Voivodeship

While in sub-branche R-YP295 there is a person in southwestern Ukraine, Ivano-Frankivskaya oblast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivano-Frankivsk_Oblast

Probably that these persons are related(we'll see in the future), ie Croatian and Herzegovinian mutations probably have a source in this area of southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

----------


## hrvat22

It is important to point out opinion of the Russian historian about the relationship between Croats and Serbs.




> _Denis Jevgenjevic Alimov, 38-year-old associate professor of Slavic and Balkan universities in St. Petersburg, author of the recently published an intriguing book "Croat Etnogenesis"-......Question.. Can it be said that Croats and Serbs in those ancient times were one tribe, that they arrived together in these lands?........Answer...With great certainty we can argue that even in those ancient times Croats and Serbs were not one tribe. They are bordered with each other, permeated for centuries, but there is no evidence that they ever were a common tribe or clan._


Croatian newspapers,


https://www.jutarnji.hr/life/znanost...pleme/6175906/


This is important to say from a historical point of view because genetics show that to Roman Dalmatia one tribe comes from one direction(Croats from White Croatia), Serbs are neighbors of White Croats who do not come to Roman Dalmatia, they come to Greece, they stay there for some time and from Greece they come to Roman Dalmatia, such genetic paths do not have inhabitants of today's Roman Dalmatia or Serbs, Montenegrins, Bosniaks etc. 

_De Administrando Imperio ("On the Governance of the Empire") is the Latin title of a Greek work written by the 10th-century Eastern Roman Emperor Constantine VII._




> It should be known that the Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey, in a region called by Boïki, where their neighbor is Francia





> Now, after the two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, came as the refugee to Heraclius, the emperor of the Romaioi, and the same Emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a region in the theme of Thessalonica to settle in,





> Then, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart totheir own homes





> And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumians and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romaioi, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for theyhad expelled from those parts of the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries,


Europe - Growth of Frankish Power, 481-814

https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/h...er_481_814.jpg

----------


## hrvat22

It is interesting that in Sanskrit exist and Croatian Slavic words, only candidate (for now) who brought those words to Sanskrit is haplotype R1a, Z93 branch.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

http://www.sutrajournal.com/sanskrit...y-james-cooper






> *Sanskrit (/ˈsænskrɪt/; Sanskrit: संस्कृतम्, translit. saṃskṛtam, pronounced [sə̃skr̩t̪əm] (listen)) is a language of ancient India with a history going back about 3,500 years.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

This in fact means that archaic Croatian Slavic language was spoken before circa 4000 years ago and that part of words has remained unchanged to this day. It would be in time of Yamnaya culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture

YFull tree speaks that branch Z93 is formed 5000 ybp.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Branch L657 that came to India is formed 4200 ybp

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

----------


## Srbadija

> It is interesting that in Sanskrit exist and Croatian Slavic words, only candidate (for now) who brought those words to Sanskrit is haplotype R1a, Z93 branch.


Why is not possible that it was "always" in Slavic and Balto-Slavic vocabulary? It is not secret that there was perhaps in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage. And it's possible that both of them (Sanskrit and Slavic) picked up this words from ancient times, and no one "brought" it to Slavic. If anyone can prove that vulgar Slavic word "jebati" is derived from Sanskrit, then we should give him nobel prize. Since it's not derivation, *but common inherited word from Proto-Indo-European language*.

----------


## hrvat22

> Why is not possible that it was "always" in Slavic and Balto-Slavic vocabulary? It is not secret that there was perhaps in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage. And it's possible that both of them (Sanskrit and Slavic) picked up this words from ancient times, and no one "brought" it to Slavic. If anyone can prove that vulgar Slavic word "jebati" is derived from Sanskrit, then we should give him nobel prize. Since it's not derivation, *but common inherited word from Proto-Indo-European language*.





> _The striking similarities in Sanskrit and Russian indicate that during some period of history,_ *the speakers of the two languages lived close together.*





> _The linguistically proven facts show the amazing affinity of Russian and_ Sanskrit_languages, obviously pointing out that these two languages must have lived closed together in some periods of antiquity._


Only haplotype who could come from that common place to India is R1a Z93. Sanskrit is 3500 years old. There are many words which are similar in these languages and from time period when vocabulary was much smaller.




> Sanskrit is an Old Indo-Aryan language. As one of the oldest documented members of the Indo-European family of languages, Sanskrit holds a prominent position in Indo-European studies. It is related* to Greek and Latin*


We see that migration of R1a Z93-Z94 is coming to Anatolia and *Mitanni.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

Mitanni is not far away from Greece. In Bulgaria we have ancient DNA 


> Kairyaka Necropolis
> R1a1a1b2-F992
> 1750-1625 BC





> The Y-SNP branch *R1a*-Z93 is defined by *F992*,


https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1a-Z93

In today Anatolia and Greece exist Z93, Z94 branches. So connection of Greek language with Sanskrit is probably through this connection or peoples which are coming from a common place.





> *Anatolians were Indo-European peoples of the Near East identified by their use of the Anatolian languages.[1] These peoples were among the oldest Indo-European ethnolinguistic groups, one of the most archaic, because Anatolians were the first or among the first branches of Indo-European peoples to separate from the initial* Proto-Indo-European community that gave origin to the individual Indo-European peoples


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_peoples




> The *Anatolian languages are an extinct family of Indo-European languages that were spoken in Asia Minor (ancient Anatolia), the best attested of them being the Hittite language.*





> Hittite (_nešili) was the language of the Hittite Empire, dated approximately 1650–1200 BC,_


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages




> Luwian was among the languages spoken during the 2nd and 1st millennia BC by groups in central and western Anatolia and northern Syria


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language

I do not know when people with R1a Z93, Z94 exactly come to Anatolia (whether with Turks or earlier) but very likely part of them coming in time of beginning of these oldest Indo-European language in that area.




> First of all, *Lithuanian* is a very old language. It is *related to Sanskrit* (a classical language of India) *Latin* and* Ancient Greek.*


http://www.lsk.flf.vu.lt/en/departme...nian-language/

There is no direct migration from areas where they speak Sanskrit to Anatolia or elsewhere (Greek, Latin language) so their common bond is somewhere else. Possible is in the area of origin Z94 branch (Andronovo_culture).
But original, first connection must be in Yamnaya culture because every quoted language is on its side of the world, only genetic link for all these languages is Yamnaya.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture

----------


## hrvat22

> Pre-Anatolian (before 3500 BCE)Pre-Tocharian
> Pre-Celtic and Pre-Italic (before 2500 BCE)
> [Pre-Germanic?]
> Pre-Armenian and Pre-Greek (after 2500 BCE)
> [Pre-Germanic?
> Pre-Balto-Slavic
> Proto-Indo-Iranian (2000 BCE)





> Pre-Anatolian (4200 BCE)Pre-Tocharian (3700 BCE)Pre-Germanic (3300 BCE)Pre-Celtic and Pre-Italic (3000 BCE)Pre-Armenian (2800 BCE)Pre-Balto-Slavic (2800 BCE)Pre-Greek (2500 BCE)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-E...Indo-Europeans

This is evolutionary tree of Indo-European branches from wikipedia.

However if we follow YFull tree subclade R-Z94 is formed 4700 ybp, R-Z93 is formed 5000 ybp, R-Z645 is formed 5500 ybp and R-M417 is formed 8600 ybp.

This means that common ancestor of Balto-Slavs and people who spoke original Sanskrit lived around 5500 ybp (R-Z645). It is evident that these Slavic words which exist in Sanskrit were spoken at least 5500 years ago. Because no one could bring these Slavic words to Sanskrit except people with mutation R-Z93,R-Z94.

Normally there are also R1b subclades, their migraton and languages but I specifically talk about Slavic language and migration of R1a people.

If YFull tree gives accurate information then Slavic words and language(among them and Croatian) exist in the time of the first Indo-European language (by wikipedia) "Pre-Anatolian" while on that scale Pre-Balto-Slavic is younger.

It's interesting and Pre-Tocharian language.




> *Tocharian, also spelled Tokharian(/təˈkɛəriən/ or /təˈkɑːriən/), is an extinct branch of the Indo-European language family. It is known from manuscripts dating from the 6th to the 8th century AD*


In that direction also migrate people with R-Z94 but according to Eupedia it is in time period around 2000 BC, but according to wikipedia and David Anthony Tocharian is old 3700 BCE. I do not know direction of R1b migration to that area so I can not say wich people and from where bring that language if is really true that is old 3700 BCE.

----------


## Srbadija

> Only haplotype who could come from that common place to India is R1a Z93. Sanskrit is 3500 years old. There are many words which are similar in these languages and from time period when vocabulary was much smaller.


Most likely, there was in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage of language. Then why is weird if some languages are common for Sanskrit and Slavic? (*jebati , sansk. "yabhati", *ljubiti , sansk. "lyubhati")... etc...)

----------


## hrvat22

> *Most likely, there was in ancient times Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian stage of language.* Then why is weird if some languages are common for Sanskrit and Slavic? (*jebati , sansk. "yabhati", *ljubiti , sansk. "lyubhati")... etc...)


Where is that common stage, in which area?

5000 ybp one tribe is divided and part of tribe goes to the east (*Z93*, *Indo-Iran*). This mean that Balto-Slavs bring their Slavic language from Yamnaya because there last time see *"Indo-Iranians"* ie. when they were in the same house and when lived their common ancestor (*R-Z645 5500 ybp*). Therefore from that time (*5500 ybp*) they have no more contacts, so they could not exchange words in that "later contact" or *stage* as you claim.

Sanskrit is old 3500 years, this means that this *stage* (if it exists) of Lithuanian and Sanskrit language is somewhere in the time 4000 years ago in Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan? And from there Lithuanian language comes to Lithuania? For now I not seen R1a branches that come from Kazakhstan or that area to Lithuania.

----------


## hrvat22

Here are autosomal results with Croatian samples (fifteen persons), it is interesting to see how close autosomally Croatians are with southern Poland and southwest Ukrainian Lviv area.

https://i.imgur.com/PLCF8ZL.png

http://oi66.tinypic.com/jiys0h.jpg





City which is supposed to be White Croatian capital *Сті́льсько* is in Lviv region so this is interesting.

----------


## hrvat22

In a new scientific work about Huns, Avars and Hungars in Hungaria are probably found Dinaric north branches or subclades in branch I-Y3120.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Probable candidate is in branch I-Y4460 which in the present state(YFull) has a source somewhere in the Ukraine. Ancestor of mentioned I-Y4460 is somewhere in the area of southern Poland age around 2500 ybp (YFull).

If on Azov exist ethnonym Croat from 3rd century it is possible that these ethnonym coming with these peoples (I-Y4460) which would mean that some Croatians exist in south Poland and in that time (2500 ybp).

If we look at public DNA I2a database in the area of Azov exist and people in the branch I-Y4460, and in the future we will know the subbranches and the age of these subbranches and whether they (ancestors) were there in the time of the 3rd century.




> *I-Y4460
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>A6105 (I-A6105)
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 216083
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Zaporizhia, Zaporiz'ka oblast, Ukraine,*


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Za...88!4d35.139567




> *I-Y3118
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 93493
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Советская, Краснодарский край, Россия*


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kr...9!4d39.7055977




> *I-Y3118
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: 417289
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Сагуны, Воронежская обл., Россия*


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Vo...3!4d39.8644374




> *I-Y3118
> 
> Subgroup: I2a2 'Dinaric' ..L621>CTS10228>S20602/YP196>Y4460>Y3118 (I-Y3118)
> Name: Not Disclosed
> Kit Number: N97830
> Earliest Known Ancestor: N/A
> Marker Location: Ирмино, Луганская область, Украина*


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lu...41!4d39.307815

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap


Normally in this area exist and peoples with branch I-S17250 and they are also candidates for bringing Croatian name to Azov area but with regard to new scientific work if that is so then in Hungary (10th century) should be and I-S17250 peoples whether they come from direction of Ukraine with I-Y4460 peoples or from Poland.


https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

----------


## hrvat22

During 10th century according to the Primary Chronicle, Vladimir the Great (958 – 15 July 1015) founded the city of Belgorod in 991. In 992, he went on a campaign against Croats, most likely the White Croats that lived on the border of modern Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...hristian_reign


Belgorod is a city in the Kiev area 


> Bilhorod Kyivsky (Ukrainian: Білгород-Київський; Russian: Белгород Киевский, _Belgorod Kievsky_) was a legendary city-castle of Kievan Rus' that was located on the right bank of Irpin River (now located in Ukraine) and was mentioned in chronicles.
> The city was quite prominent in the 10th-12th centuries but ceased to exist after 1240 destruction of Kiev by the Mongols. Currently there is a small village of Bilohorodka, Kiev Oblast near the location of the defunct city.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod_Kievsky

It is possible that this military campaign from 10th century is associated with arrival of these I2a north branches to Hungary.

Interestingly source of branch I-Y4460* is in Kiev area.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/


We have this historical data which are also interesting.




> Vladimir's father was prince Sviatoslav of the Rurik dynasty. After the death of his father in 972, Vladimir, who was then prince of Novgorod, was forced to flee to *Scandinavia* in 976 after his brother Yaropolk had murdered his other brother Oleg and conquered Rus'. In *Sweden*, with the help from his relative Ladejarl Håkon Sigurdsson, ruler of Norway, he assembled a *Varangian army* and reconquered Novgorod from Yaropolk. By 980, Vladimir had consolidated the Kievan realm from modern-day *Belarus*, *Russia* and *Ukraine* to the *Baltic Sea* and had solidified the frontiers against incursions of *Bulgarian*, *Baltic tribes* and *Eastern nomads*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladim...hristian_reign

On YFull tree in branch I-Y4460 we have people from Sweden, Finland, Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria(I2a project), Baltic Tribes(Lithuania, Estonia,Latvia(I2a project)), Eastern nomads( Russia, eastern Ukraine, possible Moldavia?) Poland, Greece.

It is possible that this branch I-Y4460 has been expand in the time of Vladimir the Great.




> The Rus' provided the earliest members of the Varangian Guard. They were in Byzantine service from as early as 874. The Guard was first formally constituted under Emperor Basil II in 988, following the Christianization of Kievan Rus' by Vladimir I of Kiev. Vladimir, who had recently usurped power in Kiev with an army of Varangian warriors, sent 6,000 men to Basil as part of a military assistance agreement


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

Bulgarian and Greek I-Y4460?

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## [email protected]

Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks

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## hrvat22

> Hi. Speaking about white Croats .My parents are born in Bosnia,Bosanska krajina, Prijedor. My research leads me to migration of my grand grandparents from Lika ,Croatia during ottoman war .My maternal haplogroup is H11a. Tested with 23andme and first I got that moms grand grand mom is from Lithuania and now Poland. Which mtdna are representative whit White Croats? Thanks


I did not follow in detail MtDNA for Croats or White Croats but I can say it's basic MtDNA from which we can not find out too much. 




> H11a is the oldest found H haplogroup in a European hunter-gatherer (forager), says the scientific report "Genetic History of Northern Europe". It's found in a male individual called Spiginas1 (ca. 4440–4240 BC) from Lithuania who belongs to the mesolithic Narva culture.


https://www.geni.com/projects/H11a-M...rial-DNA/33944




> *H11 is found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe, but also in Central Asia, where it might have been propagated by the Indo-European migrations (see below). H11a was identified in a Mesolithic hunter-gatherer from the Narva culture in Lithuania*





> H11
> H11a: found across most of northern, central and eastern Europe and in Central Asia / found in Mesolithic Lithuania, Middle Neolithic Germany and Megalithic SpainH11b: found in Poland, Slovakia, Serbia and England


https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

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## hrvat22

I started topic "Balkan genetic influence in Slavic peoples"https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post582082 in which I presented information that eastern and western Slavic peoples have a certain percentage of Balkan genetic if we follow public autosomal results. It is my opinion that "Balkans" in fact represents a common source ie White Croatian and some other older tribes in the area of the old Slavic homeland.

It would actually proof that Balkan Croats coming from area of White Croatia and that a good part of Slavic peoples has same source. Since the Baltic genetic also occurs among Slavic peoples it proves Balto-Slavic connection which exists in language. 




> Baltic and Slavic languages share several linguistic traits not found in any other Indo-European branch, *which points to a period of common development.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

When migrations of R1a peoples in that area (Baltic, Poland etc) are identified then we'll see from where is that connection or "common development".

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## hrvat22

> Based on SNP analysis, the CTS10228 group is 2200 ± 300 years old. The group’s demographic expansion may have begun in Southeast Poland around that time, as carriers of the oldest subgroup are found there today.


https://link.springer.com/article/10...20-019-00996-0

This information is known(from 2020), for now everything points to the fact that White Croatia or White Croats have originate in southeastern Poland. And that this is the place from which White Croats spread towards Roman Dalmatia but also towards Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.

Archaeogenetic data are missing for the final conclusions, but I hope that they will begin to arrive.

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## kuzmosi

Well, I think this is true. I'm hungarian, but more than half of my ancestors were rusyns from the northeastern Carpathians. All of my ancestors (rusyns and hungarians too) lived Northeast Hungary, and I don't have any croatian ancestor. 

But my eurogenes K13 results:
1
Croatian
3.12

2
Moldavian
4.93

3
Hungarian
7.46

4
Ukrainian_Lviv
7.51

5
South_Polish
8.39

6
Ukrainian
8.62

7
East_German
10.2

8
Serbian
10.27

9
Austrian
10.72

10
Polish
11.57



Mytrueancestry results:
1. Croatian (6.337)
2. Slovenian (8.138)
3. Moldavian (9.529)
4. Austrian (10.47)
5. South_Polish (10.52)
6. Ukrainian_Lviv (11.32)
7. Hungarian (11.50)
8. Ukrainian (12.31) 

So according to my opinion: my northeastern Carpathian DNA heredity is very close to the modern croatian, without any modern croatian link. It can only mean one thing. The croatians and the rusyns are also descendants of the white croats, the "harvati" people. 

Anyway I determined many Y chr haplogroup of my ancestors and according this, my ancestral hpg-s:

E-V13-CTS9320-Z17107-A19238
E-V13-Z5018-L241-A7065*
I1-L22-FGC14412*
I1-Z60-A378*
I2a-L621-S17250-A1328*
I2a-L621-S17250-A7358*
I2a-L621-S17250-not completed yet
I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118*
I2a-L621-Y4460-Y3118* (completely different family without any deeper common SNP)
Q-L332-BZ3944*
R1a-not completed yet
R1a-L664-S2866*
R1a-M458-L260-YP415*
R1a-Z280-S24902-YP4090
R1a-Z280-Z92-Y138015*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP4706*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP1701*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-YP234*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-PH864*
R1a-Z280-CTS1211-Y35-Y3219*
R1b-U106-DF98-S22116*
R1b-U106-L48-Z326-S21728*
R1b-U152-S8172*

I think many of them are common in the modern croatians.

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## hrvat22

> kuzmosi


Yes, when we look at most of autosomal results, many Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, etc. have the Balkan in a large percentage. In my opinion it is a common White Croatian but also a Proto-Slavic connection. Not a Balkan connection but a common connection in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine. This is also your case.

If we follow your Y dna, you don't really have any direct ties with Croatia(although there are branches of your Y dna in Croatia as well), but obviously you have an autosomal relationship with White Croatia. If we look specifically at yours Y dna markers they show older mutations, ie mutations that migrated earlier from White Croatia and which Croats have less. Y4460 and I-Y4882 Croats have less and this probably shows that migrations started even before main Croatian mutation I-PH908 occurred, and this would be two thousand years ago. 

Despite that, your results show the Croatian connection, which is significant, and in this is probable secret of the Balkans ancestry in autosomal results for the Slavic peoples. The common, old link is in proto-Slavic area ie White Croatia.

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## hrvat22

We have new archeogenetic data which may indicate direction of movements part of White Croats to Croatia. The place of this archeogenetic samples is Pohansko (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohans...%C5%A1t%C4%9B).

For now there are several mutations of I2a I-S17250 branch. I-Y4882 I-Y5595 I-A815. These mutations belong to the former dinaric north branches. These branches of I2a predominate in Slovenia and northwestern Croatia. Also and R1a https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2608/ which exists in Croatia.

This could point to two migrations of Croats. One from the direction of the Czech Republic to Slovenia and northwestern Croatia and for now one from the direction of southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine to Bosnia and southern Croatia. We'll be smarter when start arriving archeogenetic data for I2a branch I-PH908.
It is interesting that De Administrando Imperio also indicates two places from where Croats coming. 



> White Croats, which was allegedly beyond Bavaria, in both cases would have been much more towards the northwest and far away from Bohemia or southern Poland, where it must be expected the White Serbs and the White Croats lived. Therefore, how was it then possible that the same writer in two chapters of the same work thought differently about the geographical position of the White Croats?


De Conversione Croatorum et Serborum, Tibor Živković, page 112.


There are also some archaeological similarities with the area of Croatia and the Czech Republic. 



> Close analogies for the cross applique from Ždrijaci can be found only in two localities from the Czech Republic. One cross of the application was found next to the fifth discovered church in *Mikulčice*, i.e. at the most important Great Moravian site and in the center of the Great Moravian State, in the pre-Great Moravian horizon of the 7th and 8th centuries. Another, typologically identical but fragmentary cross was discovered in children's grave 71 next to the church of St. Petra at the Budeč site


Starohrvatsko groblje na Ždrijacu u Ninu
(The Early Croatian Cemetery at Ždrijac in Nin)
Belošević, Janko
https://www.bib.irb.hr/335372




> D. Jelovina classifies this type of spur in the "second group" and marks it as an import, in which he agrees with the opinion of Z. Vinski. Analogies with this finding from the rest of Europe are not known. , nowhere is it about this type of decoration and this way of decorating. It is worth mentioning the princely tombs from Blatnica and *Mikulčice* which contain spurs with decoration in metopes. "


Early medieval finds from the Brekinjova Kosa archaeological site (results of excavations in 2011 and 2015)https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...k_jezik=307466

Mikulčice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikul%C4%8Dice

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## jasho

I am that Croat at yfull under Y2608*. Origins place in centar of old Croatia. Hope to see if this will match my results?

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## hrvat22

Yes, this branch should have connections with the White Croats. It will be interesting to follow development of the situation in your case. When something new occur, report it here.

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## peloponnesian

> About Croat-Serb border
> For example, according to Porphyrogenitus:
> 
> From the river Zentina begins the country of Croatia and stretches along, on the side of the coast as far as the frontiers of Istria, that is, to the city of Albunum, and on the side of the mountain country it encroaches some way upon the province of Istria, and at Tzentina and *Chlebena* becomes neighbour to the country of Serbia.


Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).

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## hrvat22

> Curious fact: there is a place called Χλέβενα (Chlevena) in Laconia in the Peloponnese. Unlike other Slavic toponyms this doesn't seem to exist anywhere else in Greece. Close to a village called Ρογκόζενα which is similar to a toponym in Serbia (Rogozna) and also Croatia (Rogoznica).


Porphyrogenitus mentions Χλεβίανα ie Livno in Bosnia and Herzegovina.




> Διεμερίσθη οὖν ἡ χώρα αὐτῶν εἰς ζουπανίας ιαʹ, ἤγουν ἡ Χλεβίανα, ἡΤζένζηνα, τὰ Ἤμοτα, ἡ Πλέβα, ἡ Πεσέντα, ἡ Παραθαλασσία, ἡ Βρεβέρη, ἡ Νόνα,ἡ Τνήνα, ἡ Σίδραγα, ἡ Νίνα·καὶ ὁ βοάνος αὐτῶν κρατεῖ τὴν Κρίβασαν, τὴν Λίτζανκαὶ τὴν Γουτζησκά. Zemlja je njihova podijeljena u 11 županija: Hlijevansku (Hlebiana), Cetinsku(Tzenzina), Imotsku (Imota), Plivanjsku (Pleba), Pesentsku (Pesenta), Primorsku(Parathalassia), Bribirsku (Breberi), Nonsku (Nona), Kninsku (Tnena), Sidrašku(Sidraga), Ninsku (Nina); a ban njihov vlada Krbavom (Kribasan), Likom (Litzan)i Gackom (Goutziska).





> Their country is divided into 11 counties: Hlijevanska (Hlebiana), Cetinska (Tzenzina), Imotska (Imota), Plivanjska (Pleba), Pesentska (Pesenta), Primorska (Parathalassia), Bribirska (Breberi), Nonska (Nona), Kninska. Tnena), Sidraška (Sidraga), Ninska (Nina); and their ban ruled Krbava (Kribasan), Lika (Litzan) and Gacko (Goutzisk)


Otherwise it is a political state in the time of the 10th century. Previously ie in other chapters Porphyrogenitus mentions Croats in Ilirik and Panonia.

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## hrvat22

As for _Laconia,_ I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper). 




> Hrvatsko je ime u toponimiji potvrđeno i na Ohridu, Prespanu i Bitoli, u blizini Maratonskoga polja i nedaleko od Mikene





> The Croatian name is also confirmed in toponymy in Ohrid, Prespan and Bitola, near the Marathon field and not far from Mycenae.


It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytskyi_Oblast) not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.

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## peloponnesian

> As for _Laconia,_ I know for this information about Croatian ethnonym (from a scientific paper).


Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.




> It is interesting that in this area of Greece we have two people with I2a PH908, from Ελλάδα and Geraki(public DNA). One has branch I-Y32084 with a possible cousin in Ukraine Khmelnytskyi Oblast not so far from southwestern Ukraine, the Lviv, and the probable source-area of the White Croats.


I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.

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## hrvat22

> Yes, there is a Χαρβάτι (Harvati) in Argolis and also in Attica. But for this toponym it's possible it was brought by Albanian-speakers, since areas in both Argolis and Attica were settled by them. Not sure really. Some Slavic words were actually brought by Albanian and Vlach-speakers and you can distinguish them because they don't use the proto-Slavic forms but later forms adopted from South Slavic languages.
> 
> 
> 
> I2 is very common in mainland Greece, it's between 15-20%. Most of it should be of Slavic origin but I believe it was also carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians.


When you say "it is carried by Vlachs and to a lesser extend Albanians" it is a historical context. I’m talking about the original context ie about the time of Slavic migration to the Greece.

Have these branches of I2a been in Greece since the time of the Slavs or they come with Vlachs or Albanians we will know this in the future when these people research their genetics to the last branches. However, whether they came with Vlachs or Albanians, the source of their branches should still be in White Croatia but younger mutations coming from Albania with Vlachs or Albanians(assimilated into these communities) to Greece. 

But as I say we will know this in the future and this is why I am talking about the original state because from their haplotypes I cannot know whether they came with the Albanians or in the 7th etc century with the Slavs. 

We must always stick to what we know at the moment. By the way, if you have some scientific papers ie specific informations about migration of Vlachs or Albanians to that area of Greece, you can present it with a translation to see what it is about.

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## [email protected]

Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?

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## kingjohn

E-v22 in bosnia 
Interesting  :Thinking: 
There was a lombard remain 
From pannonia late antiquity who was e-v22 
Maybe the e-v22 has a connection 
To nomads 
Or it arrived to bosnia in roman times :Thinking: 

P.s 
From time to time i look at serbian dna 
Forum and in there dna research :
*There are some e-v22 cases in some regions 
In serbia for example* :Smile: 
Maybe you can join the e-v22 dna project :
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v22/about
A guy named richard is the administrator of it

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## [email protected]

Yes,interesting and confusing 😀 I’m a member of the group. E-v22 are spread all over the world. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered😀 my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.

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## hrvat22

> Hi. I got similar results as you and I’m born in northwest Bosnia(Krajina). My haplogroups are E-v22 and H11a. My moms dad has I-S17250. Whit vahaduo gedmatch toll besides Bosniak-Bosnia and Croatia east i got even Poland- Lemko, Moldova north and Ukraine carphatian. Can this mean that my ancestors are White Croats ?


Certainly, according to autosomal data connection with White Croats is visible. However, we do not know migration path of your male ancestors (E-v22) ie local Balkan migration or wider migration from the time of Slavic etc. migration. It would be interesting and explore your I-S17250 from maternal side. 

For northwest Bosnia(Krajina) there are several options regarding the origin of I-S17250. Maybe he has been there since the migration of Croats (7th-9th century) ie originally of Croatian origin, possible could be migration of indigenous people from Dalmatia (Croats) in Turkish times. There is also possibility of Vlach migration from Montenegro, Herzegovina, Dalmatia etc. but this should be seen in autosomal results. 

For E-v22 we have little information so we can’t say much. But as far as I can see(YFull), the same branch exists and in Poland, but it is also present in Turkey, Czech Republic, Albania etc. and for now all options are open.

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## [email protected]

Regarding Bosniaks in Krajina, majority are from Lika Croatia. They fled to Krajina during the Osman empire withdrawal from Lika area. There’s little written about this but many oral stories. Language and dialect are very similar between people who live there now and people in Krajina.

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## hrvat22

All options are open until you start researching the listed haplotypes. Then you will see where your male cousins on your mother's and father's side appear. What we could say at this point is that subclade I-S17250 has source probably in White Croats or ancestors of White Croats and that you have a male cousin on your mother's side there (​Southeastern Poland and southeastern Ukraine) like other Croats etc with this subclade.




> According to Pamjav _et. al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans"_

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## kingjohn

> Yes,interesting and confusing ������ I’m a member of the group.* E-v22 are spread all over the world*. How they end up in Balkan’s is not sure. Adriatic Sea with Phoenicians or from the north. That side of my family is yet to be discovered������ my mother’s fathers side is maybe one easier to entangle.



indeed 
from iberia in the west to mongolia in the east  :Wink: 
was even found in ancient dna from mongolia
*BUR002 M U2e1 E1b1b1a1b2 (E-V22; E-L677) late Xiongnu_sarmatian*
( a person who was autosomally sarmatian though if my memory is correct)
BUR002 - Tamiryn Ulaan Khoshuu (Burkhan Tolgoi), Arkhangai
E-BY7758 (E1b)
U2e1
1955
Mongolia - Late Xiongnu


so the sources can be multiple 
as you say :
*pheonicians expansion* 
but also 
*roman influence* - the romans were not such a great archers ( they used many auxiliaries from area which overlap with modern day lebanon and syria )
and stationed them in dacia and britain and other roman teritories 
that could explain at least in part some e-v22 cases

----------


## Sylvanas

I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?

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## hrvat22

> I'm from Croatia and this theory (about White Croatia) was abandoned long ago? Am I wrong?


We are not talking about this theory. We are talking about genetics which confirms or not this theory. I'm from Croatia and as far as I know the Croats are presumed to be Slavs and this is the Slavic-White Croatian theory.

----------


## Sylvanas

Thank you. Inform me if I can help with my DNA results somehow.

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## hrvat22

You or anyone else who knows more Croatian Ydna branches, etc feel free to help because we have little public information's.

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## kile

It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?


> This mutation could not be White Croatin origin ..because it is old two thousand years, five hundred or six hundred years older than existing time of White Croats..The truth is that this mutation is ancestor of White Croatian mutation but probably this tribe with I-CTS10228 at that time was called completely differented...


Sent from my SM-G991B using Eupedia Forum mobile app

----------


## hrvat22

> It would still be indicative that they came from those areas, no?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G991B using Eupedia Forum mobile app


Certainly a mutation I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 cannot be White Croatian origin because White Croats are not mentioned then. My opinion is that White Croatian mutations can be aged around 2000 ybp considering that Tanais Tablets are dated to the late 2nd–3rd century AD..

However this connection of I-CTS10228 or I-Y3120 with southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine probably shows and the source of the Croatian I2a branches and the possible origin area of the White Croats. 

We will probably know more in the future whether and some Croats arrive via the Czech Republic, etc.

----------


## hrvat22

> In a new scientific work about Huns, Avars and Hungars in Hungaria are probably found Dinaric north branches or subclades in branch I-Y3120.
> https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/
> 
> Probable candidate is in branch I-Y4460 which in the present state(YFull) has a source somewhere in the Ukraine. Ancestor of mentioned I-Y4460 is somewhere in the area of southern Poland age around 2500 ybp (YFull).
> 
> If on Azov exist ethnonym Croat from 3rd century it is possible that these ethnonym coming with these peoples (I-Y4460) which would mean that some Croatians exist in south Poland and in that time (2500 ybp).
> 
> If we look at public DNA I2a database in the area of Azov exist and people in the branch I-Y4460, and in the future we will know the subbranches and the age of these subbranches and whether they (ancestors) were there in the time of the 3rd century.
> 
> ...


More detailed results for I2a genetics (_Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin_) have arrived and there we have three I-Y4460 and one I-Y4882. It is genetics which comes with conquerors from Ukrainian territory(from east). That could mean at this point that ancestors of these peoples which originated in southeastern Poland and southwestern Ukraine probably bring Croatian ethnonym to the wider Ukrainian area ie 2000 ybp, and probably Sarmatian population receives that ethnonym from the west.

If we assume that ancestors of I-Y4460 migrated before occurrence of mutation I-S17250 this would mean that Croatian ethnonym(Croat etc) among that population(southeastern Poland, southwestern Ukraine, eastern Ukraine) exists at least 2200 ybp.

----------

