# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  (NEW) GenePlaza K12 Ancient Calculator Results

## noman

Today, Geneplaza published a new calculator to find out how related are you to ancient civilizations.

Just got mine!

----------


## Angela

> Today, Geneplaza published a new calculator to find out how related are you to ancient civilizations.
> 
> Just got mine!


Are these based on the actual ancient samples?

----------


## srdceleva

Costs 5 euros...no thank you 

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## noman

> Costs 5 euros...no thank you 
> 
> Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk


If you had paid for k11 calculator, then it's free to get results for k12.

----------


## noman

> Are these based on the actual ancient samples?


Yep! That's what it says. 
I can share the author's post from other forum regarding this calculator, but I am not sure if it's against the rules.

----------


## Sile

geneplaza is not for me ...........it states I have zero percentage italian

----------


## Twilight

Here is my results, the results are okay. The only concern I have is that the "Western European Farmers" samples came from Neolithic Iberia;aka Atlantic Megalithic and a mixture of WHG and EFF themselves. 

*HOW RELATED ARE YOU TO ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS*ANCIENT FARMERS54.2%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29.5%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.2%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)4.4%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)15.2%STEPPE CULTURES32.3%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)13.5%AFRICAN0.0%EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.0%

----------


## Angela

> Here is my results, the results are okay. The only concern I have is that the "Western European Farmers" samples came from Neolithic Iberia;aka Atlantic Megalithic and a mixture of WHG and EFF themselves. 
> 
> *HOW RELATED ARE YOU TO ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS*
> 
> 
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS54.2%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29.5%
> 
> ...


Well, steppe cultures have maybe 40% CHG, so that would increase the "farmer" component, because I doubt the people who brought it to the steppe were Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in the main. Of course, they may not have been farmers either, perhaps herders? I guess once again we have to wait and see. 

It's not a bad breakdown at all in terms of using the populations which would have been doing the majority of the mixing in the Bronze Age. In fact, it's not far from the figures I came up with for the British Isles using Haak estimates and extrapolating a bit. 

I guess the Levant farmer came along with the Neolithic farmers or the Bronze Age farmers. It certainly can't be attributed to the Moorish invasions in your case.

----------


## LeBrok

> Well, steppe cultures have maybe 40% CHG, so that would increase the "farmer" component, because I doubt the people who brought it to the steppe were Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in the main. Of course, they may not have been farmers either, perhaps herders? I guess once again we have to wait and see. 
> 
> It's not a bad breakdown at all in terms of using the populations which would have been doing the majority of the mixing in the Bronze Age. In fact, it's not far from the figures I came up with for the British Isles using Haak estimates and extrapolating a bit. 
> 
> I guess the Levant farmer came along with the Neolithic farmers or the Bronze Age farmers. It certainly can't be attributed to the Moorish invasions in your case.


Our wish came true and after years waiting we have so much data to wrap our brains around, that clarity got mudded. Seems like long are gone times of 3 basic admixtures ANE, WHG and EEF.
Be careful what we wish for .... :)
One needs to have a flexible and fit mind in genetics, history, abstract thinking and keep open mind, to make sense of all the ancestry and admixtures going back through time and space. Ordinary people will be lost in deep ancestry subject and will lose interest quickly, remembering only few pieces which stuck in their mind.

----------


## Angela

> Our wish came true and after years waiting we have so much data to wrap our brains around, that clarity got mudded. Seems like long are gone times of 3 basic admixtures ANE, WHG and EEF.
> Be careful what we wish for .... :)
> One needs to have a flexible and fit mind in genetics, history, abstract thinking and keep open mind, to make sense of all the ancestry and admixtures going back through time and space. *Ordinary people will be lost in deep ancestry subject and will lose interest quickly, remembering only few pieces which stuck in their mind.*


I think that's very true, partly because it's very difficult to explain in the short amount of time they're willing to pay attention to the answers. It's all very complicated, with a lot of moving parts, and if you haven't done your homework, it's all going to seem like mumbo jumbo. 

In terms of this particular test I do like the fact that this is actually based on ancient samples. It's about time someone did it for ordinary people to be able to run their raw data against all of them at once.

I'm a little surprised the WHG/SHG is coming in so low for northwestern Europeans, because even if you take 20% of the Western European farmer, you're only up to about 20%. It will be interesting to see the score for Latvians or Estonians or even Swedes.

Likewise, the "steppe" component seems to be quite a bit lower than for the Bronze Age British samples. Weren't they close to 50% steppe? So, it's gone down 18 points while other ancestry went up apparently. I wonder how much of it was "re-appearance" of British Neolithic, how much was the Anglo-Saxons, and how much an accumulation of ancestry from the direction of France.

----------


## Twilight

> Well, steppe cultures have maybe 40% CHG, so that would increase the "farmer" component, because I doubt the people who brought it to the steppe were Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in the main. Of course, they may not have been farmers either, perhaps herders? I guess once again we have to wait and see. 
> 
> It's not a bad breakdown at all in terms of using the populations which would have been doing the majority of the mixing in the Bronze Age. In fact, it's not far from the figures I came up with for the British Isles using Haak estimates and extrapolating a bit. 
> 
> I guess the Levant farmer came along with the Neolithic farmers or the Bronze Age farmers. It certainly can't be attributed to the Moorish invasions in your case.


Interesting, concidering that the calculator was just released today this is a lot of interesting components to take in. Totally agree, Would be interesting to see how the Baltic Countries and Sweden fairs in this calculator. :)

According to Geneplaza, the Levant Neolithic Genome was recovered from Ain Ghazal, Jordan dated at around 4300 BP. :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ain_Ghazal

----------


## srdceleva

> If you had paid for k11 calculator, then it's free to get results for k12.


I didn't pay for anything when I got my results, I already had like 3 euros credit automatically but it's gone now.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## Angela

> Interesting, concidering that the calculator was just released today this is a lot of interesting components to take in. Totally agree, Would be interesting to see how the Baltic Countries and Sweden fairs in this calculator. :)
> 
> According to Geneplaza, the Levant Neolithic Genome was recovered from Ain Ghazal, Jordan dated at around 4300 BP. :)
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ain_Ghazal


Unfortunately, that doesn't tell us when or with whom it arrived in Britain. As I said, I doubt it's the Moorish invasions. :)

If this is sort of an average number for this component for a lot of northern Europeans, then, as I said, it must have come as part of some mass migration. The only ones that seem possible to me are the Neolithic and perhaps a Bronze Age population, but more likely the former, I would think, since I don't think the southern Bronze Age route would have hit Britain. It's just the Levant like ancestry that got swept up with the larger migrations from Anatolia that made it into Europe, I would think.

----------


## Fire Haired14

> Here is my results, the results are okay. The only concern I have is that the "Western European Farmers" samples came from Neolithic Iberia;aka Atlantic Megalithic and a mixture of WHG and EFF themselves. 
> 
> *HOW RELATED ARE YOU TO ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS*
> 
> 
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS54.2%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29.5%
> 
> ...


Those scores look legit. They're similar to what other methods get.

----------


## I1a3_Young

The $3 credit only covers purchases less than $3, it cannot go towards the $5 fee for this one.

I ordered the "Ancestry" with my free credit and paid $5 for the K12.

*ANCIENT FARMERS* 48.2%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)17.0%References include Neolithic genomes from Portugal, and Chalcolithic genomes from Spain. The similarity between these farmers and other Mediterranean farmers points to a rapid spread of agriculture in Europe around 7000 years ago.LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.4%Based on neolithic and bronze-age period samples recovered from the Levant area in the Middle-East. The references for the bronze age Levant farmer (BA) samples were recovered from the Ain Ghazal, Jordan area and were dated to about 4300 years ago.

The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter-gatherers. By the time of the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed with each other and with the hunter- gatherers of Europe to drastically reduce genetic differentiation. The impact of the Near Eastern farmers extended beyond the Near East: farmers related to those of Anatolia spread westward into Europe; farmers related to those of the Levant spread southward into East Africa; farmers related to those from Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of he Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia.NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.5%Based on Neolithic and chalcolithic period samples recovered from Northwest Iran. The farmers from the Zagros mountain Iran region descended from one of multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations in southwestern Asia.

They are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46,000 to 77,000 years ago, and show affinities to modern-day Kurd, Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan populations.

The Neolithic Iranian references used for this component, were recovered from the Kurdistan region of Iran, and appear to be around 9000 years old. The Chalcolithic Iranian references have been dated to around 5000 years old. The Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG) appear to have genetically contributed to present day Europeans, W Asians, and S Asians.EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)24.3%References consist of genomes from Turkey, Greece, and other parts of SE Europe from the Neolithic period. These represent descendants of the first farmers to colonize Europe from the Near East. 


*STEPPE CULTURES* 39.1%

KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)8.2%This cluster is based on ancient genomes from the Karasuk culture, supplemented with two Iron-Age Eastern Scythian samples. The Karasuk percentage should be interpreted as a diffusion of DNA from the Eastern Eurasian Steppe populations post Bronze Age, via Turkic expansions, as well as more subtle diffusions via NE Caucasus populations.ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)16.1%The Andronovo culture, which are believed to have aided in the spread of Indo_European languages, is a collection of similar local Bronze Age cultures that flourished around 3000-4000 years ago in western Siberia and the west Asiatic steppe. This culture overlapped with the Srubna culture in the Volga-Ural region of Russia.YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)14.9%Believed to be among the first Indo-European language speakers. The Yamnaya genetically appear to be a fusion between the Eastern European Hunter Gatherers that inhabited the western Siberian steppe, and a populations from the Caucasus region. Descendants of the Yamnaya would later change the genetic substructure of indigenous Neolithic Europeans via invasions of Europe from the Eurasian steppe. 

*WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS* (4000-5000 years)12.7%

These were the indiginous populations of Europe that substantially contributed to the genetics of modern Europeans. It is believed that these hunter gatherers arrived in Europe around 45000 years ago from the Near East. 


0.0% results African, Eastern Non-African, or Southeast Eurasian

3% Kurdish came up in my LivingDNA results so a 3.5% Kurdistan above seems like the mystery is solved.

For comparisons and about me, see my LivingDNA thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34376-Living-DNA-results-and-comparison

----------


## Tomenable

My results after today's update:

1. Ancient Farmers & Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers - *49.9 %*, including:

a) South-Eastern European Farmers - *29.0 %*
b) Iberian (West European) Farmers - *9.7 %*

c) Neolithic and Bronze Age Levant - *2.8 %*

c) CHG and Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran - *8.4 %*

2. Steppe Cultures - *27.3 %*, including:

a) Andronovo and Srubnaya - *10.1 %*
b) Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka - *9.2 %*
c) Karasuk and Scytho-Sarmatians - *8.0 %*

3. Western European and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers - *22.8 %*

http://i.imgur.com/WcLFuYm.png

----------


## Tomenable

> Are these based on the actual ancient samples?


Yes, here are the references used:


Yamnaya-Afansievo: Yamnaya Samara, Yamnaya Kalmykia, Poltavka, and Afanasievo;Andronovo-Srubnaya: 3 Andronovo and 2 Srubnaya samplesE-European Farmer: Neolithic genomes from Turkey, Greece, and other parts of SE Europe.W-European Farmer: Neolithic genomes from Portugal, and Chalcolithic genomes from Spain.SE Eurasian: Jarawa, S Indian tribals, Brunei tribals, and Burmese.Karasuk: 5 genomes from the Karasuk culture, supplemented with 2 IA Eastern Scythian samples.WHG-SHG: 8 genomes from continental Europe and Sweden.ENA; Papuans and Aboriginal Australians.IRAN-N/CHG: Includes Iran-N, and imputed Kotias and Satsurbila genomes.W African: Yoruba, Gambian, and Esan modern samples;E African: Masai, Luhya, and Hadza modern samples.Levant N/BA: The higher coverage 4 samples

----------


## noman

> The $3 credit only covers purchases less than $3, it cannot go towards the $5 fee for this one.
> 
> I ordered the "Ancestry" with my free credit and paid $5 for the K12.
> 
> *ANCIENT FARMERS* 48.2%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)17.0%References include Neolithic genomes from Portugal, and Chalcolithic genomes from Spain. The similarity between these farmers and other Mediterranean farmers points to a rapid spread of agriculture in Europe around 7000 years ago.LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.4%Based on neolithic and bronze-age period samples recovered from the Levant area in the Middle-East. The references for the bronze age Levant farmer (BA) samples were recovered from the Ain Ghazal, Jordan area and were dated to about 4300 years ago.
> 
> The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter-gatherers. By the time of the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed with each other and with the hunter- gatherers of Europe to drastically reduce genetic differentiation. The impact of the Near Eastern farmers extended beyond the Near East: farmers related to those of Anatolia spread westward into Europe; farmers related to those of the Levant spread southward into East Africa; farmers related to those from Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of he Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia.NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.5%Based on Neolithic and chalcolithic period samples recovered from Northwest Iran. The farmers from the Zagros mountain Iran region descended from one of multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations in southwestern Asia.
> 
> ...


The maker of this calculator already mentioned that the calculator is very accurate.

----------


## LeBrok

> My results after today's update:
> 
> 1. Ancient Farmers & Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers - *49.9 %*, including:
> 
> a) South-Eastern European Farmers - *29.0 %*
> b) Iberian (West European) Farmers - *9.7 %*
> 
> c) Neolithic and Bronze Age Levant - *2.8 %*
> 
> ...


Hmmm, what will you get when you pull Neolithic Iran/CHG genes from Yamnaya-Afansievo? What's left is pure EHG genes, not the BA Steppe Culture. You can't measure Yamnaya without Iran/CHG in it!
When you measure farmer genes on one side, you should measure h-gs on the other. Not the mixed cultures like Steppe BA or even Iron Age like in case of Scythians.
Likewise when you measure Steppe Cultures, you should compare them to their contemporaries. Like BA Hungary or Balkans or BA Levant.

----------


## Tomenable

LeBrok,

I partially agree with you, but that is not my calculator. With K36 nMonte, I got the following results (I divided samples into eras, and calculated models of ancestry for each era):

*A) Ca. 1000-3000 years ago (with Early Medieval samples):*

[1] "distance%=6.1784 / distance=0.061784"

Czechia Slavic RISE569 - 23.70 %
Sudovia RISE598 - 21.10 %
Poland Slavic Markowice7 - 16.40 %
Poland Slavic Niemcza34 - 16.25 %
Poland Wielbark Kowalewko55 - 9.65 %
Sarmatian I0574 - 8.75 %
Hungary BR2 - 3.20 %
Poland Wielbark Kowalewko22 - 0.55 %
Armenia RISE412 - 0.30 %
Mycenaean I9041 - 0.10 %

*B) Ca. 2000-3000 years ago (without Medieval samples):*

[1] "distance%=7.5255 / distance=0.075255"

Sudovia RISE598 - 35.10 %
Hungary BR2 - 21.20 %
Hungary IR1 - 15.80 %
Mezhovskaya RISE523 - 12.95 %
Poland Wielbark Kowalewko55 - 11.65 %
Poland Wielbark Maslomecz5 - 2.65 %
Poland Wielbark Kowalewko22 - 0.30 %
Mycenaean I9006 - 0.35 %

*C) Around 3000-5000 years ago:*

[1] "distance%=7.012 / distance=0.07012"

Sudovia RISE598 - 33.35 %
Hungary BR2 - 25.75 %
Sintashta RISE395 - 11.10 %
Poland Unetice RISE431 - 10.10 %
Germany Unetice I0115 - 7.30 %
Latvia Corded Ware Zvej28 - 5.00 %
Czechia Bell Beaker RISE567 - 2.70 %
Hungary RISE371 - 2.30 %
Armenia RISE416 - 1.65 %
Okunevo RISE516 - 0.65 %
Anatolia Kumtepe4 - 0.10 %

*D) Around 5000-7000+ years ago:*

[1] "distance%=13.5243 / distance=0.135243"

Stalingrad Steppe RISE555 - 23.70 %
Poltavka Culture I0432 - 21.10 %
Neolithic Sweden Gokhem5 - 19.30 %
Comb Ceramic Estonia MA974 - 15.15 %
Yamnaya Culture I0439 - 9.80 %
Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG1 - 7.00 %
Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG3 - 3.95 %

^^^ 
Gokhem5 shows up in my results because it has high "East Balkan" in K36. I think that when we get Cucuteni-Trypillian samples, they will score even higher "East Balkan".

----------


## Tomenable

I get RISE555 as my Copper Age / Early Bronze Age Steppe ancestor.

This sample is not described as Yamnaya, but just Early Bronze Age:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/cop...zeagedna.shtml

In that later period of time, I get Mezhovskaya instead of Karasuk.

----------


## LeBrok

> LeBrok,
> 
> I partially agree with you, *but that is not my calculator.* With K36 nMonte, I got the following results (I divided samples into eras, and calculated models of ancestry for each era):


 YOU was in general form to all. ;)

----------


## Twilight

> Hmmm, what will you get when you pull Neolithic Iran/CHG genes from Yamnaya-Afansievo? What's left is pure EHG genes, not the BA Steppe Culture. You can't measure Yamnaya without Iran/CHG in it!
> When you measure farmer genes on one side, you should measure h-gs on the other. Not the mixed cultures like Steppe BA or even Iron Age like in case of Scythians.
> Likewise when you measure Steppe Cultures, you should compare them to their contemporaries. Like BA Hungary or Balkans or BA Levant.



I just ran GedrisiaDNA K13 for the RISE548 Temrta IV and it seems like he had 90% EHG. Just curious, how old do you think RISE548 is? :). F999968

gedrosia K13 Oracle

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
EHG
91.64

2
CHG_EEF
6.82

3
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
1.03




Finished reading population data. 145 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Steppe_EMBA @ 8.332838
2 EHG @ 10.848113
3 Steppe_Eneolithic @ 15.332281
4 MA1 @ 35.752441
5 Steppe_MLBA @ 54.005684
6 Steppe_IA @ 57.893478
7 Europe_LNBA @ 68.595451
8 Mansi @ 81.844429
9 Russian @ 84.221184
10 Finnish @ 84.834053
11 Tajik @ 85.156075
12 Estonian @ 85.601242
13 Norwegian @ 86.192795
14 English @ 86.641441
15 Icelandic @ 86.720924
16 Ukrainian @ 86.735909
17 Lezgin @ 86.938011
18 Lithuanian @ 87.061974
19 Chechen @ 87.216942
20 Scottish @ 87.639229

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Steppe_EMBA +50% Steppe_EMBA @ 8.332838


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% EHG +25% EHG +25% Steppe_MLBA @ 6.024658


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 EHG + EHG + EHG + Steppe_MLBA @ 6.024658
2 EHG + EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_MLBA @ 6.929148
3 Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 7.842470
4 EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_MLBA @ 7.931480
5 EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 8.007501
6 Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA @ 8.332838
7 EHG + EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 8.360223
8 EHG + EHG + EHG + MA1 @ 8.508878
9 EHG + EHG + MA1 + Steppe_EMBA @ 8.638973
10 EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA @ 8.761701
11 EHG + EHG + EHG + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 8.878288
12 EHG + MA1 + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA @ 8.945330
13 Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_MLBA @ 8.997570
14 EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_Eneolithic + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 9.184469
15 EHG + EHG + Steppe_Eneolithic + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 9.242440
16 Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_Eneolithic + Steppe_Eneolithic @ 9.297512
17 EHG + EHG + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA @ 9.339354
18 MA1 + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA + Steppe_EMBA @ 9.410752
19 EHG + EHG + EHG + Steppe_EMBA @ 10.044287
20 EHG + EHG + EHG + Steppe_IA @ 10.053915

Done.

----------


## LeBrok

> I just ran GedrisiaDNA K13 for the RISE548 Temrta IV and it seems like he had 90% EHG. Just curious, how old do you think RISE548 is? :). F999968
> 
> gedrosia K13 Oracle
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> ...


He is and he looks like typical Yamnayan, with most EHG of all the samples I have.

http://arshba.ru/ancient-western-eur...ges-t1147.html

----------


## Angela

Is this calculator using such an outlier? That wouldn't make sense.

----------


## Twilight

> Is this calculator using such an outlier? That wouldn't make sense.


Not quite sure I've been using this link below to access ancient DNA, however the website hasn't been updated for 2 years and I acknowledge that there are more ancient DNA on Gedmatch and but I found only found 1 sample on Y-str that matched Eupedia's Yamna article. There are so many adventure legend out there that I wouldn't quite put outlier out of the question. RISE548 was found in the Don & Kuban region.

However I have to admit, it was entertaining to suddenly see that 90% EHG on a pie scale looks like Pac-Man instead of the roughly 40-50% CHG I was originally expecting. That was pretty cool :)

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html


http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml

----------


## New Englander

Attachment 9105

I like this one, seems to give a good reference group. Only odd thing is I get 0% Western European Hunter. 

ANCIENT FARMERS 69.0%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 26.8%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 4.5%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 8.7%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 29.0%

STEPPE CULTURES 28.5%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 9.9%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 10.3%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.3%

AFRICAN 2.5%
EAST AFRICAN (modern) 0.8%
WEST AFRICAN (modern) 1.7%

----------


## kingjohn

[QUOTE=New Englander;518265]Attachment 9105

*I like this one, seems to give a good reference group. Only odd thing is I get 0% Western European Hunter. 


*very strange i score 12% whg in mdlp k11 and 0% here 
and i am sure you even more whg in mdlp k11 as you have a Scottish roots 
so the 0% is weird 
maybe it is hiding in your west european farmers 
as they are based on chl Iberian and those did have whg admixture .
other than that the calculator looks good 
kind regards
Adam

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=kingjohn;518417]


> Attachment 9105
> 
> *I like this one, seems to give a good reference group. Only odd thing is I get 0% Western European Hunter. 
> 
> 
> *very strange i score 12% whg in mdlp k11 and 0% here 
> and i am sure you even more whg in mdlp k11 as you have a Scottish roots 
> so the 0% is weird 
> maybe it is hiding in your west european farmers 
> ...


At the most, the WHG is 20%-30% of the West European farmer, and probably quite a bit less for most of the East European farmers. (I wouldn't have labeled them that, btw, as I think it's misleading. It looks like LBK plus the Balkans plus Anatolia.) *

The more southeastern your ancestry, the less of this you're going to get, because there was no reservoir of WHG here. That only existed in the far northeast from what I can tell, or perhaps a bit of the northern strip, which later diffused into other areas, but probably never into the more populated areas of the south. 

Also, I think people have been led astray by amateur calculators created by people with an agenda to push. The academics never saw a lot of WHG in modern Europeans other than what had been absorbed by the farmers.

See: Haak et al


The more you people talk about this the more intrigued I'm getting, so maybe for the first time in a long time I'll try a calculator. At least this has the benefit of not being created by people I distrust, and it's actually based on a good sample of ancient genomes.

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=Angela;518421]


> At the most, the WHG is 20%-30% of the West European farmer, and probably quite a bit less for most of the East European farmers. (I wouldn't have labeled them that, btw, as I think it's misleading. It looks like LBK plus the Balkans plus Anatolia.) *
> 
> The more southeastern your ancestry, the less of this you're going to get, because there was no reservoir of WHG here. That only existed in the far northeast from what I can tell, or perhaps a bit of the northern strip, which later diffused into other areas, but probably never into the more populated areas of the south. 
> 
> Also, I think people have been led astray by amateur calculators created by people with an agenda to push. The academics never saw a lot of WHG in modern Europeans other than what had been absorbed by the farmers.
> 
> See: Haak et al
> 
> 
> The more you people talk about this the more intrigued I'm getting, so maybe for the first time in a long time I'll try a calculator. At least this has the benefit of not being created by people I distrust, and it's actually based on a good sample of ancient genomes.


I think we have to do some research on this. Are the European farmer samples in this calculator before or after the "HG resurgence"?If it's before, they had almost no WHG.

----------


## Angela

Well, that's nice, I just proved my two prior posts with my own results. :) Click to enlarge.

Attachment 9123



This is a map of the geographical location of the ancient samples.

Attachment 9124

----------


## kingjohn

i can't see the results
what has been written to me is 
this 
*vBulletin Message* Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link,

can you please copy paste them 
kind regards
adam 


*p.s
the west farmers are based on neolithic Portuguese and chl Iberian references from what i remember .
*

----------


## Angela

Darn! I saved it to my computer and then uploaded. I even clicked approve attachment, so I don't know why it doesn't work. 

Anyway...

Ancient farmers: 74.3
Steppe cultures: 25.7

African 0
Eastern Non-Africans 0
Southeast Eurasian 0
Western European & Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers 0


ANCIENT FARMERS74.3%STEPPE CULTURES25.7%AFRICAN0.0%EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.0%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%

----------


## Angela

I think this is now my favorite calculator. Who did it, btw?

For the farmer and steppe portions, see below. The only thing I don't understand is why I got higher numbers for certain steppe cultures than others:



ANCIENT FARMERS74.3%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)39.2%LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.3%NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.4%EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.4%







​


STEPPE CULTURES25.7%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)12.6%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.3%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)

----------


## davef

Angela, you and NewEnglander are very very similar

----------


## Angela

He's British, Italian, and Jewish, yes? I think he said half British?

The similarity is in the big blocks, where it's a few point difference either way, and then a 2.5% SSA score for him versus 0 for me. There's a lot more difference when you get to the sub-categories, I'm 12 points higher in Western European Farmers, which makes sense given my location, and I have less than half the Neolithic Iran, Armenian type ancestry. 

From what I've seen at anthrogenica, most people get from 3-5% Levant, so I'm on the low end, and a lot of people also get a few percent Iran Neolithic. It would be interesting to know the percentages by area. For ease of reference:
New Englander/Me

Ancient Farmers: 69/74.3
Western European 26.8/39.2
Levant 4.5/3.3
Iran 8.7/3.4
Eastern Europe 29/28.4

Steppe: 28.5/25.7/
Karasuk-E Scythian 9.9/12.6
Andronovo-Scrubnaya 10.3/5.3
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 8.3/7.8

All people from the Balkans that I've seen so far get around 28% steppe. Probably he has closer to that because of his British ancestry. 

In the substructures, again, he's quite different. Comparisons with mixed people are always difficult. 

SubSaharan 2.5/0

----------


## LeBrok

> He's British, Italian, and Jewish, yes? I think he said half British?
> 
> The similarity is in the big blocks, where it's a few point difference either way, and then a 2.5% SSA score for him versus 0 for me. There's a lot more difference when you get to the sub-categories, I'm 12 points higher in Western European Farmers, which makes sense given my location, and I have less than half the Neolithic Iran, Armenian type ancestry. 
> 
> From what I've seen at anthrogenica, most people get from 3-5% Levant, so I'm on the low end, and a lot of people also get a few percent Iran Neolithic. It would be interesting to know the percentages by area. For ease of reference:
> New Englander/Me
> 
> Ancient Farmers: 69/74.3
> Western European 26.8/39.2
> ...


Dont' you think there is something amiss in this calculator? Now we need to explain how 10% of Scythian got to Italy. I also can't figure out by these admixture and explain how Caucasian admixture increased in Europe during Bronze Age. Did it come with 10% of Levant/Iran? Of course not. This is too much Eurocentric thought in it. Perhaps by Eastern European farmer they mean Anatolian farmer?

----------


## matadworf

Here's mine:
Greek/Peloponnese

Ancient Farmers 76.7

Western Euro Farmers 34.8
Levant 5.1
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran CHG 5.5
East Euro Farmers 31.2

Steppe Culture 17.3

Karasuk-E Scythian 1.0
Andronovo Srubnaya 7.0
Yamnaya A P 9.3

African 2.9

East African 2.9
West African 0

Southeast Eurasian 2.7

Eastern Non Africans 0.4

Western European-Scandinavian HG 0

----------


## Angela

> Dont' you think there is something amiss in this calculator? Now we need to explain how 10% of Scythian got to Italy. I also can't figure out by these admixture and explain how Caucasian admixture increased in Europe during Bronze Age. Did it come with 10% of Levant/Iran? Of course not. This is too much Eurocentric thought in it. Perhaps by Eastern European farmer they mean Anatolian farmer?


I think it's quite good, actually. I wish I could copy paste the map provided by the creator . It shows, as I said upthread, that the Eastern farmer is indeed not only LBK; it's also Anatolian farmer. It would have come into Italy both from central Europe by means of the northeastern corridor under the Alps, and perhaps directly across the Adriatic, or with Bronze Age movements. The Western European farmer is more Impressa/Cardial, I think, with its incorporated WHG, and the movement of Beaker type farmers into southern France and northern Italy, i.e. the genomes before the arrival of the steppe peoples. I think this is why I always get such high Iberian on calculators based on modern populations. In fact, in some calculators I'm a mix of Iberian and Thessalian, i.e. northern Greece. 

Map of Gene Plaza Samples.jpg

I'm still trying to make sense of the substructure in steppe. Perhaps it's because Yamnaya and Andronovo are north of the Alps movements, which would perhaps mean not much of it made it's way into Italy? There was a big settlement of Alans in central into northern Italy, which I used to "blame" for the 2% East Asian/Korean that I habitually get in some calculators. However, I think it's more likely that this breakdown highlights the different "waves" from the steppe, Yamnaya, then Andronovo like, then more "eastern" like. Wasn't Bronze Age 2 sample like that, with more "eastern", Caucasus like ancestry. Some of my Caucasus is "cloaked" in there. 

You know, that's very interesting: does some of the "Caucasus" in northern Italy come from slightly different and "later" steppe people?

@matadworf,
Did you do this a while ago? Someone told me they got some weird results at first, but they changed and made more sense later. Maybe you might want to check it again?

Anyway, my slightly more western and slightly "northern" shift makes sense, I think, even with these results.

----------


## davef

> He's British, Italian, and Jewish, yes? I think he said half British?
> 
> The similarity is in the big blocks, where it's a few point difference either way, and then a 2.5% SSA score for him versus 0 for me. There's a lot more difference when you get to the sub-categories, I'm 12 points higher in Western European Farmers, which makes sense given my location, and I have less than half the Neolithic Iran, Armenian type ancestry. 
> 
> From what I've seen at anthrogenica, most people get from 3-5% Levant, so I'm on the low end, and a lot of people also get a few percent Iran Neolithic. It would be interesting to know the percentages by area. For ease of reference:
> New Englander/Me
> 
> Ancient Farmers: 69/74.3
> Western European 26.8/39.2
> ...


I misread the "3" in your western score ("39") as a "2". I was reading through my phone and scrolling faster than I should've.  :Poh:

----------


## matadworf

> I think it's quite good, actually. I wish I could copy paste the map provided by the creator . It shows, as I said upthread, that the Eastern farmer is indeed not only LBK; it's also Anatolian farmer. It would have come into Italy both from central Europe by means of the northeastern corridor under the Alps, and perhaps directly across the Adriatic, or with Bronze Age movements. The Western European farmer is more Impressa/Cardial, I think, with its incorporated WHG, and the movement of Beaker type farmers into southern France and northern Italy, i.e. the genomes before the arrival of the steppe peoples. I think this is why I always get such high Iberian on calculators based on modern populations. In fact, in some calculators I'm a mix of Iberian and Thessalian, i.e. northern Greece. 
> 
> Map of Gene Plaza Samples.jpg
> 
> I'm still trying to make sense of the substructure in steppe. Perhaps it's because Yamnaya and Andronovo are north of the Alps movements, which would perhaps mean not much of it made it's way into Italy? There was a big settlement of Alans in central into northern Italy, which I used to "blame" for the 2% East Asian/Korean that I habitually get in some calculators. However, I think it's more likely that this breakdown highlights the different "waves" from the steppe, Yamnaya, then Andronovo like, then more "eastern" like. Wasn't Bronze Age 2 sample like that, with more "eastern", Caucasus like ancestry. Some of my Caucasus is "cloaked" in there. 
> 
> You know, that's very interesting: does some of the "Caucasus" in northern Italy come from slightly different and "later" steppe people?
> 
> @matadworf,
> ...


@ Angela. Just did it today. Was there something odd about my results? Thanks

----------


## Angela

> @ Angela. Just did it today. Was there something odd about my results? Thanks


Not weird as in wrong, of course, or bad. I apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't expect any African to show up in mainland Greece. I would have thought even the East African would have disappeared by now. I don't understand the southeast Eurasian either. I normally see it as a trace of the South Asian in some steppe ancestry. Perhaps that's what happened. You just happen to have kept a trace of it. 

Still, I'd wait a day or so and maybe try it again.

----------


## Carl Graham

Me :

ANCIENT FARMERS 50.0%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 28.9%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 4.7%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)2.2%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 14.3%

.................................................. .................................................. .............


STEPPE CULTURES 35.3%

KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 4.5%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 18.1%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 12.7%


.................................................. .................................................. .........................
and 

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)14.7%

AFRICAN 0.0%
EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%
SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 0.0%

----------


## Angela

> Me :
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS 50.0%
> 
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 28.9%
> 
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 4.7%
> 
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)2.2%
> ...


I'm assuming mostly British Isles ancestry?

----------


## Carl Graham

> I'm assuming mostly British Isles ancestry?


As far as known all but a tiny remote smidgen of German.

----------


## matadworf

> Not weird as in wrong, of course, or bad. I apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't expect any African to show up in mainland Greece. I would have thought even the East African would have disappeared by now. I don't understand the southeast Eurasian either. I normally see it as a trace of the South Asian in some steppe ancestry. Perhaps that's what happened. You just happen to have kept a trace of it. 
> Still, I'd wait a day or so and maybe try it again.


Oh no it didn't come across that way at all. I appreciate the insights. I asked the same question of the calculator's creator about the SE asian component but didn't hear back. He did mention something about 23 and Me data being a bit more accurate than Ancestry for SE Asian. Yes the East African is strange and nothing of the sort has shown up before. Ethiopians in Greece during the classical period? I know just a far fetched notion.

----------


## LeBrok

> I think it's quite good, actually. I wish I could copy paste the map provided by the creator . It shows, as I said upthread, that the Eastern farmer is indeed not only LBK; it's also Anatolian farmer. It would have come into Italy both from central Europe by means of the northeastern corridor under the Alps, and perhaps directly across the Adriatic, or with Bronze Age movements. The Western European farmer is more Impressa/Cardial, I think, with its incorporated WHG, and the movement of Beaker type farmers into southern France and northern Italy, i.e. the genomes before the arrival of the steppe peoples. I think this is why I always get such high Iberian on calculators based on modern populations. In fact, in some calculators I'm a mix of Iberian and Thessalian, i.e. northern Greece. 
> 
> You know, that's very interesting: does some of the "Caucasus" in northern Italy come from slightly different and "later" steppe people?


 Some Caucasian was in Steppe but not really much. If they included Anatolia in Eastern European Farmer, then it means that Eastern EF is actually Chalcolithic/BA Anatolia/Armenia, which spilled into Balkans and Beyond. Farmers anyway, but really distinct, and perhaps misnomer in Eurocentric way.









> I'm still trying to make sense of the substructure in steppe. Perhaps it's because Yamnaya and Andronovo are north of the Alps movements, which would perhaps mean not much of it made it's way into Italy? There was a big settlement of Alans in central into northern Italy, which I used to "blame" for the 2% East Asian/Korean that I habitually get in some calculators. However, I think it's more likely that this breakdown highlights the different "waves" from the steppe, Yamnaya, then Andronovo like, then more "eastern" like. Wasn't Bronze Age 2 sample like that, with more "eastern", Caucasus like ancestry. Some of my Caucasus is "cloaked" in there.


I think it is actually Yamnaya part we share with Andronovo and Scythians but not a direct ancestry. Such huge Scythian invasion in times of written history, would have been noticed, and by now archaeologically confirmed.

What I mean is that if we on Eupedia have to fatigue our brains about that, what does it mean for ordinary user?

----------


## Angela

> *Some Caucasian was in Steppe but not really much.* If they included Anatolia in Eastern European Farmer, then it means that *Eastern EF is actually Chalcolithic/BA Anatolia/Armenia, which spilled into Balkans and Beyond.*  Farmers anyway, but really distinct, and perhaps misnomer in Eurocentric way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is actually Yamnaya part we share with Andronovo and Scythians but not a direct ancestry. Such huge Scythian invasion in times of written history, would have been noticed, and by now archaeologically confirmed.
> 
> What I mean is that if we on Eupedia have to fatigue our brains about that, what does it mean for ordinary user?


That isn't what the academics are saying using formal stats and the ancient samples, LeBrok. They're still saying upwards of 40% Caucasus/Iran Chalcolithic like in steppe, although not at the beginning.

No, the Eastern European Farmer includes LBK; it's too early to be Chalcolithic. The listed time period for the samples is 8,000-5,000 years ago, and the map shows LBK, so first wave. I do think, as I said above, that Eastern European farmer is not a very good term. Maybe they should have just said "LBK, Balkan, and Anatolian farmers". What they're getting at is genomes that don't have too much admixture and are like the early farmers who came into Europe. They specifically say that. 

As for ordinary users, I don't think they're going to understand it, but they don't understand their 23andme or Ancestry results either, as you can see from some questions that even wind up here. 

I actually think that for these people the companies wind up causing a lot of disinformation being passed around. One example I've seen often is Caribbean Islanders who see "Italian" results, and think they have recent Italian ancestors. The "Spanish" and "Italian" that they get should be added to get an Iberian percentage unless they know for a fact they have a recent Italian in their tree. It's just a stand in for more Western European versus more southeastern European, similar to what I show in terms of Western Mediterranean farmer and Eastern Mediterranean farmer.

I have to disagree about the steppe. The steppe ancestry came in waves too, and the later ones came from further east on the steppe. I suppose it's still possible in my particular case that it's Alans, since I get that 2% East Asian/Siberian in a lot of calculators.

----------


## olov

Results north swedish 

STEPPE CULTURES 45.1
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN 21.2
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA 16.4
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA 7.5

ANCIENT FARMERS 38.4
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS 13.5
LEVANT 2.8
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG 0.0
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS 22.1

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS 16.4

----------


## LeBrok

> Results north swedish 
> 
> STEPPE CULTURES 45.1
> KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN 21.2
> ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA 16.4
> YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA 7.5


Now I'm convinced that we are not talking direct ancestry from these groups, but genetic similarities to these groups. Surely, there was no 40% Steppe migration during late bronze and Iron Age into Sweden. Yes? Even these numbers might not be right, as 7.5% of Yamnaya in Sweden seems to be low.




> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG 0.0


 As Angela mentioned there might be up to 40% of Iran Chalcolithic in Yamnaya. So why is it 0% here? On this chart Norwegians are over 50% Yamnaya. Sweden should be alike. We also know that vast majority of Andronovo and huge percentage in Scythian comes from Yamnaya. Therefore Yamanaya should be dominant of all the steppe here.



One thing make sense (though roughly) that they give 45% Steppe ancestry to Sweden all together. However how they divide this number into different steppe cultures and imply direct ancestry is questionable. 

They are trying to achieve something impossible here to entertain the public. It is not a simple matter and this looks like a farce. You can only do it with contemporary to each other cultures, however if we go through times and deal with cultures which shared ancestry, this is not going to work this way. We can only show it as genetic similarities, unconstraint with 100% limit. Or direct ancestry genetic similarities if possible.

PS.
Welcome to Eupedia Olov.

----------


## olov

I get 4 to 6% of siberian on other calculators so it probably elevates some numbers. Much saami ancestry up here in the northern parts of scandinavia.

----------


## olov

Thank you LeBrok

----------


## olov

LeBrok
We also know that vast majority of Andronovo and huge percentage in Scythian comes from Yamnaya. Therefore Yamanaya should be dominant of all the steppe here.

I thought the same.

----------


## kingjohn

i asked the creator of this calculator 
in anthrogenica forum 
about the option that whg genes are hiding in the west european farmers component 
his answere

Originally Posted by *kingjohn* *dear kurd,
is it possible whg genes 
are hiding in the west european farmers { as you used also chl-iberians and they do have whg admixture}?
kind regards
adam*

his answere:

*yes indeed, very likely.*

----------


## Northener

My results, North-Dutch stock:


*I. Farmer component*



Eastern European Farmer obviously bigger than the West European Farmer....


*II. Steppe component
*


Why is the Scythian component almost 0?


*III. Hunter Gatherer component
*


It looks like if there is a "HG-Fringe" in places around the Baltic Sea and specific places around the North Sea like West Norway and (my) North Dutch result....

----------


## Angela

> My results, North-Dutch stock:
> 
> 
> *I. Farmer component*
> 
> 
> 
> Eastern European Farmer obviously bigger than de West European Farmer....
> 
> ...


That's what it looks like to me as well.

The higher eastern farmer versus western farmer was a little surprising. I guess more of your ancestry is LBK like versus up the Atlantic seaboard or up the Rhone. 

I think the differences in steppe refer either to above versus below the Danube or slightly different waves of the steppe migrations. Someone should ask the creator for his perspective.

----------


## elghund

I've loaded my dna to Geneplaza, saying they are doing a process called imputation, which means they are inferring many new genetic variants. What does that mean?

----------


## Northener

> That's what it looks like to me as well.
> 
> The higher eastern farmer versus western farmer was a little surprising. I guess more of your ancestry is LBK like versus up the Atlantic seaboard or up the Rhone. 
> 
> I think the differences in steppe refer either to above versus below the Danube or slightly different waves of the steppe migrations. Someone should ask the creator for his perspective.


I guess that in the case of Funnelbeaker (west) there where two major neolithic influences:

a. an inland route, ''East European Farmer" from the Balkan:

https://www.thoughtco.com/funnel-beaker-culture-170938
and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5325568/

b. and a sea route, "West European Farmer" from the Mediterraenen area:
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/04/...ic-sweden.html

In my case is the ratio obviously 1:1,5 in advantage of the East European Farmers.

----------


## Valerius

ANCIENT FARMERS *65.7%*
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)19.8% 

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.0% 

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)6.8% 
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)35.0%


STEPPE CULTURES *30.9%*
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)10.1% 

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)11.4% 
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)9.3%


WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)* 1.9%


*EAST AFRICAN (modern)*1.2%


*EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)* 0.3%


*I guess that Iran Chalcolithic = Gedrosia and East African = Red Sea; The steppe component looks inline with Haak et al who gives around 30% Yamnaya for Bulgaria.

----------


## Angela

> ANCIENT FARMERS *65.7%*
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)19.8%
> 
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.0%
> 
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)6.8%
> EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)35.0%
> 
> 
> ...


Going by this I guess that most people from Greece, the Balkans, and perhaps Southern Italy and Iberia are going to get East African? It's odd, because there were no Moorish invasions of the mainland. I hear some people are attributing it to very old farmer input from the Near East, but last I saw Natufians had no SSA, unless SSA is really West African, and this is Horner type ancestry that may have seeped into the Levant and from there gone with farmers into Europe. 

I find it odd that I'm getting so much less Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic/CHG here, less than people from Greece and the Balkans, and even less than Northern Europeans, when I used to get respectable amounts of "West Asian" in modern population based admixture calculators. I don't know what it really represents. I know Kurd has said that if we had more and better Levant samples those numbers might go up. I don't think that's the case with the Iran samples, though, so I don't understand the rationale for lower values for that one. I'm not on anthrogenica, so I can't ask him.

----------


## Valerius

> Going by this I guess that most people from Greece, the Balkans, and perhaps Southern Italy and Iberia are going to get East African? It's odd, because there were no Moorish invasions of the mainland. I hear some people are attributing it to very old farmer input from the Near East, but last I saw Natufians had no SSA, unless SSA is really West African, and this is Horner type ancestry that may have seeped into the Levant and from there gone with farmers into Europe. 
> 
> I find it odd that I'm getting so much less Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic/CHG here, less than people from Greece and the Balkans, and even less than Northern Europeans, when I used to get respectable amounts of "West Asian" in modern population based admixture calculators. I don't know what it really represents. I know Kurd has said that if we had more and better Levant samples those numbers might go up. I don't think that's the case with the Iran samples, though, so I don't understand the rationale for lower values for that one. I'm not on anthrogenica, so I can't ask him.


I don't think these admixtures are connected to recent historical events, it's more gedmatch-like, "Anthropological" calculator as I see it but with more fancy terms. These 1.2% East African looks like the 2% Red Sea from Gedmatch and I believe it's the same type of ancient admixture. Actually, it's very un-historical calculator - if you have let say Scythian admixture I believe it's only similar to this admixture but not a direct proof that you have it from historical Scythian tribes but could be mediated through Slavs, Turkic peoples, Goths or God knows what. 
The MENA type of ancestry AFAIK is showing when there is no "catch-all" clusters like the ones in FTDNA - if you get one of these clusters and dissolve it to its composites, MENA ancestry will show behind every cluster. So I've been told. That's why Southern Europeans like us used to get such stats in FTDNA, Ancestry etc. - in the end it's connected to pre-historical movements of EEF and the likes. About the Natufians, aren't they modeled on just 4-5 samples? Who knows what may pop-up with more samples. It would be especially interesting for me to see more samples from them as I'm very distantly connected to these people on the Y-chromozome.

----------


## Regio X

Me / Father / Mother

Ancient Farmers: 72.5 / 70.9 / 68.8
- West European Farmers: 29.0 / 26.5 / 33.1
- Levant: 3.0 / 4.8 / 3.1
- Neolithic-Calcolithic Iran-CHG: 7.0 / 5.8 / 6.5
- East European Farmers: 33.5 / 33.8 / 26.1

Steppe Cultures: 23.4 / 25.2 / 25.7
- Karasuk-E Scythian: 6.8 / 8.3 / 4.8
- Andronovo-Srubnaya: 7.8 / 5.9 / 10.8
- Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka: 8.7 / 11.0 / 10.1

Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 3.3 / 3.8 / 5.1

Eastern Non Africans: 0.6 / 0.0 / 0.0

African: 0.1 / 0.0 / 0.4
- East African: 0.1 / 0.0 / 0.4
- West African: 0.0 / 0.0 / 0.0

Southeast Eurasian: 0.0 / 0.0 / 0.0

----------


## davef

> Going by this I guess that most people from Greece, the Balkans, and perhaps Southern Italy and Iberia are going to get East African? It's odd, because there were no Moorish invasions of the mainland. I hear some people are attributing it to very old farmer input from the Near East, but last I saw Natufians had no SSA, unless SSA is really West African, and this is Horner type ancestry that may have seeped into the Levant and from there gone with farmers into Europe. 
> I find it odd that I'm getting so much less Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic/CHG here, less than people from Greece and the Balkans, and even less than Northern Europeans, when I used to get respectable amounts of "West Asian" in modern population based admixture calculators. I don't know what it really represents. I know Kurd has said that if we had more and better Levant samples those numbers might go up. I don't think that's the case with the Iran samples, though, so I don't understand the rationale for lower values for that one. I'm not on anthrogenica, so I can't ask him.


North Italians don't get much west Asian by the eurogenes k13 average. It's 6.something percent. 
Btw if gene plaza takes cheek swabs, blood, or samples that would be great bc I would love to know how I relate to prehistoric people. My heritage is well documented...my Irish is "real" Irish, and my Jewish is Ashkenazim with deep roots in Poland...but my Italian side isn't well documented. My dad says it's from frosinone but I'm still skeptical. But thanks to my second cousin of 3/4 south Italian 1/8 Irish 1/8 English descent (she scored 80 percent Italy/Greece from ancestry), I'm convinced that my Italian heritage is south Italian :).

So, I feel no need whatsoever to take a test to see how I relate to modern populations....then again, anyone with half a brain would expect me to get high sixties/low seventies ancient farmer in this test unless I score enough Scandinavian hunter gatherer or steppe due to my 1/4 Irish background.

----------


## Dibran

*Me:*

*ANCIENT FARMERS* *74.8%*

*WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)31.2%*References include Neolithic genomes from Portugal, and Chalcolithic genomes from Spain. The similarity between these farmers and other Mediterranean farmers points to a rapid spread of agriculture in Europe around 7000 years ago.*LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.2%*Based on neolithic and bronze-age period samples recovered from the Levant area in the Middle-East. The references for the bronze age Levant farmer (BA) samples were recovered from the Ain Ghazal, Jordan area and were dated to about 4300 years ago.

The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter-gatherers. By the time of the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed with each other and with the hunter- gatherers of Europe to drastically reduce genetic differentiation. The impact of the Near Eastern farmers extended beyond the Near East: farmers related to those of Anatolia spread westward into Europe; farmers related to those of the Levant spread southward into East Africa; farmers related to those from Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of he Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia.*NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)5.4%*Based on Neolithic and chalcolithic period samples recovered from Northwest Iran. The farmers from the Zagros mountain Iran region descended from one of multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations in southwestern Asia.

They are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46,000 to 77,000 years ago, and show affinities to modern-day Kurd, Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan populations.

The Neolithic Iranian references used for this component, were recovered from the Kurdistan region of Iran, and appear to be around 9000 years old. The Chalcolithic Iranian references have been dated to around 5000 years old. The Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG) appear to have genetically contributed to present day Europeans, W Asians, and S Asians.*EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)34%*References consist of genomes from Turkey, Greece, and other parts of SE Europe from the Neolithic period. These represent descendants of the first farmers to colonize Europe from the Near East.



*STEPPE CULTURES 25.1%*

*KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)7%*This cluster is based on ancient genomes from the Karasuk culture, supplemented with two Iron-Age Eastern Scythian samples. The Karasuk percentage should be interpreted as a diffusion of DNA from the Eastern Eurasian Steppe populations post Bronze Age, via Turkic expansions, as well as more subtle diffusions via NE Caucasus populations.*ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)10.6%*The Andronovo culture, which are believed to have aided in the spread of Indo_European languages, is a collection of similar local Bronze Age cultures that flourished around 3000-4000 years ago in western Siberia and the west Asiatic steppe. This culture overlapped with the Srubna culture in the Volga-Ural region of Russia.*YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)7.6%*Believed to be among the first Indo-European language speakers. The Yamnaya genetically appear to be a fusion between the Eastern European Hunter Gatherers that inhabited the western Siberian steppe, and a populations from the Caucasus region. Descendants of the Yamnaya would later change the genetic substructure of indigenous Neolithic Europeans via invasions of Europe from the Eurasian steppe.


0.1% results African

----------


## Angela

From a quick look at the chatter about this test, it seems that the Karasuk-E Scythian score is highest among Europeans in Balts and Northern Slavs, which some are explaining as because this group left the steppe after the Celtic/Italic groups and so shared more ancestry with Iranic speaking peoples.

That doesn't answer why mine is so high. It doesn't surprise me, because, as I said, I consistently get 1-2% of something Yakut or East Asian like, and so do quite a few northwestern Italians with whom I share.

The only thing I can think of is a smidgen of Alan ancestry increasing the levels.

See: 
http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm

The Sarmatians and Alans supposedly accompanied the Langobards into Italy. This is a map of their settlements. As my father's ancestry is from around there (between Pavia* and Reggio), perhaps it's a possibility.

Sarmatian and Alan settlement in northern Italy.jpg

Ed. Between Piacenza and Reggio Emilia, not Pavia and Reggio Emilia.
Attachment 9136

----------


## AdeoF

Here is mine 


ANCIENT FARMERS66.1%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)35.3%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.6%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)5.6%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)20.6%


STEPPE CULTURES29.2%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)4.2%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)12.3%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)12.7%


AFRICAN4.3%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)4.3%

WEST AFRICAN (modern)0.0%


WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.5%

----------


## Dibran

*My Father:

ANCIENT FARMERS 72.2%


WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29%
**
References include Neolithic genomes from Portugal, and Chalcolithic genomes from Spain. The similarity between these farmers and other Mediterranean farmers points to a rapid spread of agriculture in Europe around 7000 years ago.
**
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.1%Based on neolithic and bronze-age period samples recovered from the Levant area in the Middle-East. The references for the bronze age Levant farmer (BA) samples were recovered from the Ain Ghazal, Jordan area and were dated to about 4300 years ago.

The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter-gatherers. By the time of the Bronze Age, these two populations and Anatolian-related farmers had mixed with each other and with the hunter- gatherers of Europe to drastically reduce genetic differentiation. The impact of the Near Eastern farmers extended beyond the Near East: farmers related to those of Anatolia spread westward into Europe; farmers related to those of the Levant spread southward into East Africa; farmers related to those from Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of he Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia.NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)5.1%Based on Neolithic and chalcolithic period samples recovered from Northwest Iran. The farmers from the Zagros mountain Iran region descended from one of multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations in southwestern Asia.

They are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46,000 to 77,000 years ago, and show affinities to modern-day Kurd, Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan populations.

The Neolithic Iranian references used for this component, were recovered from the Kurdistan region of Iran, and appear to be around 9000 years old. The Chalcolithic Iranian references have been dated to around 5000 years old. The Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG) appear to have genetically contributed to present day Europeans, W Asians, and S Asians.EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)33%References consist of genomes from Turkey, Greece, and other parts of SE Europe from the Neolithic period. These represent descendants of the first farmers to colonize Europe from the Near East.




STEPPE CULTURES 27.6%


KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)11.9%This cluster is based on ancient genomes from the Karasuk culture, supplemented with two Iron-Age Eastern Scythian samples. The Karasuk percentage should be interpreted as a diffusion of DNA from the Eastern Eurasian Steppe populations post Bronze Age, via Turkic expansions, as well as more subtle diffusions via NE Caucasus populations.ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)10%The Andronovo culture, which are believed to have aided in the spread of Indo_European languages, is a collection of similar local Bronze Age cultures that flourished around 3000-4000 years ago in western Siberia and the west Asiatic steppe. This culture overlapped with the Srubna culture in the Volga-Ural region of Russia.YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)5.7%Believed to be among the first Indo-European language speakers. The Yamnaya genetically appear to be a fusion between the Eastern European Hunter Gatherers that inhabited the western Siberian steppe, and a populations from the Caucasus region. Descendants of the Yamnaya would later change the genetic substructure of indigenous Neolithic Europeans via invasions of Europe from the Eurasian steppe.



0.1% results African
0.1% results east non african*

----------


## New Englander

Im Half Campanian, Half 1800s New Brunswick + (Turkish + Lithuanian Jewish)

And here is my K11

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 33.08
2 EHG 25.26
3 Basal 18.55
4 WHG 16.36
5 Iran-Mesolithic 3.36
6 Amerindian 1.36
7 ASI 1.19
8 African 0.85

----------


## Northener

> From a quick look at the chatter about this test, it seems that the Karasuk-E Scythian score is highest among Europeans in Balts and Northern Slavs, which some are explaining as because this group left the steppe after the Celtic/Italic groups and so shared more ancestry with Iranic speaking peoples.
> 
> That doesn't answer why mine is so high. It doesn't surprise me, because, as I said, I consistently get 1-2% of something Yakut or East Asian like, and so do quite a few northwestern Italians with whom I share.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is a smidgen of Alan ancestry increasing the levels.
> 
> See: 
> http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm
> 
> ...


Scythians maybe also had a relationship with the Celts, with the Hallstatt culture: "There were many tribes that filled the vast plain from the Dnieper River Valley to the edge of Mongolia, most all of them where known collectively as Scythians in the period 522-486 B. C. During their peak the Scythians penetrated into Europe as far as Hungary and East Prussia. A grave of a Scythian and possibly his family was uncovered at Hallstatt, in Upper Austria, in 1995. Ceramics belonging to the Scythians have been found in Lower Austria." 





from: http://celticowboy.com/mrn4.htm


K12 can reveil this!

----------


## Twilight

> Scythians maybe also had a relationship with the Celts, with the Hallstatt culture: "There were many tribes that filled the vast plain from the Dnieper River Valley to the edge of Mongolia, most all of them where known collectively as Scythians in the period 522-486 B. C. During their peak the Scythians penetrated into Europe as far as Hungary and East Prussia. A grave of a Scythian and possibly his family was uncovered at Hallstatt, in Upper Austria, in 1995. Ceramics belonging to the Scythians have been found in Lower Austria." 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from: http://celticowboy.com/mrn4.htm
> 
> 
> K12 can reveil this!


This gets even more interesting every post I read. I'm afraid I didn't score any Scythian Ancestry on this calculator. However, I did score Yamna and Shrubna culture.

*ANCIENT FARMERS. 54.2%*


WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29.5%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.2%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)4.4%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years). 15.2%

STEPPE CULTURES32.3%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)0.0%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 17.0%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years). 15.3%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)13.5%These were the indiginous populations of Europe that substantially contributed to the genetics of modern Europeans. It is believed that these hunter gatherers arrived in Europe around 45000 years ago from the Near East.

----------


## Northener

> This gets even more interesting every post I read. I'm afraid I didn't score any Scythian Ancestry on this calculator. However, I did score Yamna and Shrubna culture.


We can shake hands....mine is 0,5%

----------


## Stuvanè

Me (Eastern Emilia/Romagna)

*Ancient farmers 71.7% :*

- West european farmers 25.1%
- Levant 5.3%
- Neolithic-chalcolithic Iran CHG 7.1%
- East european farmers 34.2%

*Steppe cultures 21.9% :
*
- Karasuk-e Scythian 7.7%
- Andronovo-Srubnaya 7.5%
- Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 6.7%

*Western european & scandinavian HG 6.4%*

----------


## Twilight

> We can shake hands....mine is 0,5%


We might need to DNA test a Scythian sample and upload it to the Geneplaza calculator to make sure. But the idea of Shrubna Culture merging with the Scythians and later Hallstatt culture does seem inticing none the less. :)

----------


## Angela

Still, my figures look pretty extreme in terms of percentages. It can't just be "Celtic", unless there's a similar discrepancy in "Celtic" fringe countries, for example. Instead, as I said, the highest percentages for this seem to be in the Baltic countries.

Steppe: 25.7
Karasuk-E Scythian 12.6
Andronovo-Scrubnaya 5.3
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 7.8

Also, as I said, on regular Admixture I consistently get 1.5-2% Yakut or East Asian. I'm assuming Balts get similar or even much higher percentages?

@Northener,
There's no doubt that there were Alan and Sarmatian settlements in northern Italy, as my link above shows, so I know they were there; I just don't know if there were enough of them in certain specific areas to change the percentages or proportions of steppe ancestry.

@Stuvane,
So, obviously it's not northern Italy wide.

----------


## elghund

My results-- mostly English

*Ancient Farmer 54.3*
West European Farmers 20.6
Levant 3.1
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG 2.3

*Steppe Culture 30.8*
Karasuk-E Scythian 10.8
Andronovo-Srubnaya 12.4
Yamnaya Afanasievo-Poltavka 7.6
*
Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers 14.9*

----------


## Arbaso

These are my results:

*Ancient Farmers: 70.3
*Western European Farmers: 43.2%
Levant: 3.7%
Neolithic & Chalcolithic Iran: 3%
Eastern European Farmers: 20.4%

*Steppe Cultures: 22.7%

*Karasuk-Scythian: 5%
Andronovo-Srubnaya: 9.6%
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka: 8.1%

*​Western European & Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherers: 7%*

----------


## Angela

> These are my results:
> 
> *Ancient Farmers: 70.3
> *Western European Farmers: 43.2%
> Levant: 3.7%
> Neolithic & Chalcolithic Iran: 3%
> Eastern European Farmers: 20.4%
> 
> *Steppe Cultures: 22.7%
> ...


Thanks for posting your results, Arbaso. Nice to see the results of someone with Basque ancestry.

----------


## davef

> Thanks for posting your results, Arbaso. Nice to see the results of someone with Basque ancestry.


Yeah I agree. So north Italians like you are pretty much 95 percent Basque or something. You got 39 percent western farmer which isn't that much less than what he scores.

----------


## Angela

^^My 4 point less Western farmer is balanced by my 8 point higher Eastern farmer, for a total of about 4 points higher total farmer for me. However, I have 3 points more steppe. Also, our Basque poster has 7% additional WHG/SHG, which I don't have. So, I don't think 95%, but not all that different. 

I'm wondering if the higher Western Med farmer proportion holds true for all of northwestern Italy/Tuscany compared to not only southern Italy but northeastern Italy because of getting proportionally more Balkan diffusion. 

As I said, I've often gotten Oracle matches with Iberian populations. I'm sure if there were samples from southeastern France those would show up as well. 

I spent a summer semester in Barcelona, and have visited since, and just my subjective impression from being able to understand Catalan, to the food, to the phenotypes of the people and their behavioral patterns, there's a swath of similar ancestry all the way from Catalonia through Liguria.

Interestingly, in Regio's family, who come from quite a bit further north than I do, they have about the same amount of "steppe" (although not that disproportional Scythian) as I do, but unlike the Basque result and mine, they don't have that have Western Med farmer. It's much more Eastern farmer, and they have more Iran like ancestry although it's still at very low levels. Also, they have a bit of that additional WHG/SHG. I wonder if that could be attributable to the Langobards (not the Alans or Sarmatians) absorbing that ancestry along with steppe ancestry?

----------


## bix

*Ancient Farmers: 52.1%*
West European: 24.5%
Levant: 3.4%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 2.0%
East European Farmers: 22.2%

*Steppe Cultures: 33.5%*
Karasuk-E Scythian: 9.1%
Andronovo Srubnaya: 14.8%
Yamnaya-Afansavievo-Poltavka: 9.6%

*WHG-SHG: 13.4%
*
*Eastern Non Africans: 0.9%

Southeast Eurasian: 0.1%*

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My dad says it's from frosinone but I'm still skeptical. But thanks to my second cousin of 3/4 south Italian 1/8 Irish 1/8 English descent (she scored 80 percent Italy/Greece from ancestry), I'm convinced that my Italian heritage is south Italian :).


Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.

----------


## davef

> Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.


Thanks! Very interesting.
@Angela,
Sorry, I wasn't going for mathematical precision. I meant 95 percent as "a huge portion" if you get my drift. 
Then again I failed to notice the huge difference in the eastern farmer until just now, you're 8 points ahead in that category (and he does have that extra hunter gatherer that isn't showing in your results).

----------


## Angela

> Frosinone and Latina province (southern Lazio) are a transitional area between central and southern Italy. For example the province of Frosinone was established by Royal Decree on 6 December 1926 with territories belonging to Lazio (central Italy) and to Campania (south Italy). A vast part of Frosinone and Latina province was under the Kingdom of Naples for centuries and they still today speak southern Italian dialects. There are many Italian-Americans who have roots in Frosinone, they think their ancestors were central Italian (because now province of Frosinone is all in the Lazio region) but instead their ancestors were often southern Italians until 1926. Angela can explain it better than me.


I couldn't do better than that. :) Italian-Americans from this area are indeed usually confused about their ancestry. They don't realize, for example, that they speak a southern Italian dialect. The same kind of confusion exists for Abruzzesi.

It's been known from genetics papers dating back six or more years that the genetic break in Italy runs just south of Rome. It's also becoming clear that people like Cavalli/Sforza were correct, and there is more genetic variation in that Rome to the Alps area than there is between southern Italians/Sicilians. I think some of that is differences in migrations, but I also think drift has some part to play.

----------


## Jovialis

> I couldn't do better than that. :) Italian-Americans from this area are indeed usually confused about their ancestry. They don't realize, for example, that they speak a southern Italian dialect. The same kind of confusion exists for Abruzzesi.
> 
> It's been known from genetics papers dating back six or more years that the genetic break in Italy runs just south of Rome. It's also becoming clear that people like Cavalli/Sforza were correct, and there is more genetic variation in that Rome to the Alps area than there is between southern Italians/Sicilians. I think some of that is differences in migrations, but I also think drift has some part to play.


Not always, for example, my mother's family always knew they had some type of relation to Greeks. Than again, they've only been here since the 1970s.

----------


## Angela

> Not always, for example, my mother's family always knew they had some type of relation to Greeks. Than again, they've only been here since the 1970s.


I was speaking specifically about the fact that Italian-Americans from certain parts of *geographic* "Central Italy" are not aware that geography or sometimes even political divisions, and genes, culture, language, don't necessarily correlate in this area.

More generally, in terms of the amount of information people have about their ancestry, it makes a huge difference whether one's ancestors came in the 1970s versus 1912 or even before. 

Still, most southern Italians do know that they are tied to the Greeks. Even my husband, who didn't know the towns from which his Calabrian ancestors came, only that they were in the province of Reggio Calabria, knew that some of them had been Greek speaking until fairly recently. More generally, just from learning World History, he knew about Magna Graecia and the shared history in southern Italy in general.

Even then, there are differences from family to family. The more literate the family was even in those early periods the more information they had. 

Then, certain information has only become available recently in terms of genetics, and so the interpretation of history has changed. 

My father, who comes from an area that is 70-80% R1b U-152, was convinced he didn't have any ancestry from north of the Alps. Those Celts and Lombards either got sent back where they came from or were limited to benighted areas in the Alps. :) Part of that was propaganda from the Mussolini era. Nowadays, with the negative feelings about the Near Eastern and North African immigration, some Italians have unfortunately tried to distance themselves from these types of people by becoming Nordicists of one variety or another, and trying to inflate and celebrate their "northern" ancestry. My father must be spinning in his grave. :)

----------


## MsJ

Screen Shot 2017-09-11 at 11.46.04 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2017-09-10 at 2.43.31 PM.png

The African is 1.8 percent E. African.

I think these numbers may be typical for someone of mixed European ancestry, because those on the forum that are similar ancestral background blends have somewhat similar numbers. 
Based on my family tree being mainly German/Dutch and British Isles with a few unknown elements, I can't argue

I'm still trying to get a line on my Mongolian spots and other "Asian" physical features but still no smoking gun. :)

----------


## Jovialis

> I was speaking specifically about the fact that Italian-Americans from certain parts of *geographic* "Central Italy" are not aware that geography or sometimes even political divisions, and genes, culture, language, don't necessarily correlate in this area.
> 
> More generally, in terms of the amount of information people have about their ancestry, it makes a huge difference whether one's ancestors came in the 1970s versus 1912 or even before. 
> 
> Still, most southern Italians do know that they are tied to the Greeks. Even my husband, who didn't know the towns from which his Calabrian ancestors came, only that they were in the province of Reggio Calabria, knew that some of them had been Greek speaking until fairly recently. More generally, just from learning World History, he knew about Magna Graecia and the shared history in southern Italy in general.
> 
> Even then, there are differences from family to family. The more literate the family was even in those early periods the more information they had. 
> 
> Then, certain information has only become available recently in terms of genetics, and so the interpretation of history has changed. 
> ...


Ah, I see, I misread your post.

In regards to nordicism in Italy, a lot of that was actually promoted by Giulio Cogni, who borrowed a lot from Nazi racial theories. Also, Giulio Evola, who promoted the idea of _mystic Aryanism / Spiritual Nordicism._ These were competing ideology to Giuseppe Sergi's Mediterraneanism. Of which there was disagreement within the Fascist party, with the High Council supporting the Mediterraneanists, vs Evola and other nordicist figures.

Anyway, this would probably be more appropriate for another thread.

EDIT:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post518984

This PCA I found confirms the Abruzzi being more southern. Also, there's some other examples of geography not matching up with genetics.

----------


## Aha

My result. Kyivan Ukrainian with Lithuanian Y-dna.

----------


## I1a3_Young

The British, Dutch, and Swiss are showing drastically less Scythian while Slavs and Bulgarians are showing equal mixes (or so) of Steppe.

The Scythians clearly had a large impact on eastern Europe as far as Poland and N. Italy. The Celtic IE expansion had already happened by that point but this demonstrates how complicated the large scale transformation of Europe's genetics could be. Thousands of years of movement was mixed with a couple large scale expansions of dominant tribes.

The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.

----------


## LeBrok

> The British, Dutch, and Swiss are showing drastically less Scythian while Slavs and Bulgarians are showing equal mixes (or so) of Steppe.
> 
> *The Scythians clearly had a large impact on eastern Europe as far as Poland and N. Italy.*  The Celtic IE expansion had already happened by that point but this demonstrates how complicated the large scale transformation of Europe's genetics could be. Thousands of years of movement was mixed with a couple large scale expansions of dominant tribes.
> 
> *The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.*


 Because it didn't really happen. I think they confuse common origin, like Yamnaya in this case, with direct ancestry.

----------


## Aaron1981

> Hmmm, what will you get when you pull Neolithic Iran/CHG genes from Yamnaya-Afansievo? What's left is pure EHG genes, not the BA Steppe Culture. You can't measure Yamnaya without Iran/CHG in it!
> When you measure farmer genes on one side, you should measure h-gs on the other. Not the mixed cultures like Steppe BA or even Iron Age like in case of Scythians.
> Likewise when you measure Steppe Cultures, you should compare them to their contemporaries. Like BA Hungary or Balkans or BA Levant.


You're not looking at the data correctly. You absolutely can break Yamnaya apart from CHG. Europeans don't descend form CHG as an isolate, at least not by much, but they do descend from a composite population similar to Yamnaya, Andronovo, and Karasuk to a lesser extent (Some relative of CHG + European Hunter Gatherers). Middle Eastern populations will have stronger affinity to CHG because they descend from cultures derived from CHG and other closely related populations to CHG such as Iran_Neolithic. THe latter populations have absolutely nothing to do with the Steppe hunter gatherer populations and are probably separated by about 45,000 years or more to the steppe ones. (If we use WHG as a baseline, but I suppose it could be less, but probably greater than 24,000 (ANE))

----------


## LeBrok

> You're not looking at the data correctly. You absolutely can break Yamnaya apart from CHG. Europeans don't descend form CHG as an isolate, at least not by much, but they do descend from a composite population similar to Yamnaya, Andronovo, and Karasuk to a lesser extent (Some relative of CHG + European Hunter Gatherers). Middle Eastern populations will have stronger affinity to CHG because they descend from cultures derived from CHG and other closely related populations to CHG such as Iran_Neolithic. THe latter populations have absolutely nothing to do with the Steppe hunter gatherer populations and are probably separated by about 45,000 years or more to the steppe ones. (If we use WHG as a baseline, but I suppose it could be less, but probably greater than 24,000 (ANE))


You lost me. Which point of mine you are trying to disprove?

----------


## Ghani

> The puzzling part is Scandinavians scoring Scythian as well, similar to Slavs.


I read Somewhere that some Uralics have Karasuk related ancestry

----------


## elghund

I thought the neolithic Western European farmers (4000-5000 kya) were the descendants of East Euorpen farmers (5000-8000 kya) via the demic model. Was there another population bottleneck that allowed further differentiation between the western and eastern European farmers or did these groups originate from separate populations in the Levant >8000 kya.

----------


## Ghani

> I thought the neolithic Western European farmers (4000-5000 kya) were the descendants of East Euorpen farmers (5000-8000 kya) via the demic model. .


Looks like it, since they are so similar to each other

----------


## Angela

there seems to have been a split in the stream of farmers into Europe, one of which took the route into Europe up through the Balkans, and one of which departed by sea and took the northern Mediterranean route. The latter is Cardial, Impressa.

There are those who hold that the split occurred somewhere in Greece, and so the groups would have been largely similar. Others think there might have been some differences even if the original departure point was the same, somewhere around where present day Anatolia meets the very northern part of Syria. 

There's a lot of discussion here on the topic. Just use the search engine.

----------


## Ghani

> Others think there might have been some differences even if the original departure point was the same, somewhere around where present day Anatolia meets the very northern part of Syria.


This scenario makes sense in lieu of a few west and south Asians scoring a little higher W European Farmer than E European with this calculator

----------


## noman

*@Angela:*

I see you are commenting over people's results. Care to comment on mine?

----------


## Angela

> *@Angela:*
> 
> I see you are commenting over people's results. Care to comment on mine?


Of course, noman, if you wish it, and for what it's worth.

Either post your results here or send them to me by PM if you wish it to be private.

----------


## LeBrok

> Looks like it, since they are so similar to each other


Eastern Farmers were genetically influenced by Anatolia chalcolithic-Bronze Age cultures full of Caucasian and SW Asian admixtures. 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Angela

Does anyone know if Kurd has published precisely which samples, other than LBK, make up his "Eastern farmer" reference sample? LBK would have no Anatolia Chalcolithic/Anatolia Bronze. All I know, as I said, is that LBK is included, and that the samples are from 8,000 to 5,000 years ago.

----------


## noman

> Of course, noman, if you wish it, and for what it's worth.
> 
> Either post your results here or send them to me by PM if you wish it to be private.


My results are on the first page - the very first post.

----------


## Angela

> My results are on the first page - the very first post.


I'd guess Indian, and given the high "steppe", I'd say perhaps Northwest Indian and high caste? I don't know if Afghan would be possible.

It's interesting how the Iran Neo type farmer is so much higher but brought along Western (Anatolian) and Levant farmer genetic material along with it, probably because a certain amount of admixture had already taken place.

Another interesting thing is that the steppe substructure is divided pretty evenly. Could that mean that the steppe like groups that went to India were already pretty well admixed, for example perhaps in Bactria? 

I wouldn't have guessed that the Southeast Eurasian component was the smallest, although not by much. 

This is all speculation, but you did ask. :)

----------


## Alan

> Here is my results, the results are okay. The only concern I have is that the "Western European Farmers" samples came from Neolithic Iberia;aka Atlantic Megalithic and a mixture of WHG and EFF themselves. 
> 
> *HOW RELATED ARE YOU TO ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS*
> 
> 
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS54.2%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)29.5% 
> 
> ...


eh not really Western European Farmers are basically EEF from Central Europe to Iberia. Those were not really a "mix" of WHG- EEF but almost completely Anatolian_NEO with some WHG admixture (3-10%).

----------


## Angela

> eh not really Western European Farmers are basically EEF from Central Europe to Iberia. Those were not really a "mix" of WHG- EEF but almost completely Anatolian_NEO with some WHG admixture (3-10%).


Some of the samples are Iberian Chalcolithic, so more WHG, maybe up to 20% for some of them. If he had early Cardial it would probably be different.

----------


## Alan

> Some of the samples are Iberian Chalcolithic, so more WHG, maybe up to 20% for some of them. If he had early Cardial it would probably be different.


True, I have to correct myself. After seeing the datings. It seems those are Middle Neolithic samples. Those were indeed up to 15-25% admixed with WHG. Basically the main source of Basques and Sardinians. There seems to have come very little addition to these two populations after the middle Neolithic.

----------


## Alan

I see "East European" farmers are basically another wave of those earliest farmers that left Anatolia for Greece, the Balkans and northern Black Sea (CT culture).

----------


## Alan

> Hmmm, what will you get when you pull Neolithic Iran/CHG genes from Yamnaya-Afansievo? What's left is pure EHG genes, not the BA Steppe Culture. You can't measure Yamnaya without Iran/CHG in it!
> When you measure farmer genes on one side, you should measure h-gs on the other. Not the mixed cultures like Steppe BA or even Iron Age like in case of Scythians.
> Likewise when you measure Steppe Cultures, you should compare them to their contemporaries. Like BA Hungary or Balkans or BA Levant.


I think what he is trying to do here, is measure ancestry based on post early Neolithic genomes. Means how we show up as a mix of populations that emerged from middle Neolithic to Bronze Age. 

WHat he labeled here as Iran_CHL/CHG is actually Iran_CHL/CHG admixture that can not be explained via Steppe admixture. Thats how I understand it.

Unfortunately we don't have Bronze_Age or Neolithic samples from the North Caucasus. Therefore to counter confusion he should have used a different term or call it "extra Iran/CHG".

----------


## Alan

> I just ran GedrisiaDNA K13 for the RISE548 Temrta IV and it seems like he had 90% EHG. Just curious, how old do you think RISE548 is? :). F999968
> 
> gedrosia K13 Oracle
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> ...


Gedrosia K12 had flaws with ancient samples. Kurd even mentioned that and it had been mentioned here several times too. It is impossible that a Yamnaya sample is 90% EHG even with variation. the samples were in variation between 40-60% EHG.

----------


## Angela

> I see "East European" farmers are basically another wave of those earliest farmers that left Anatolia for Greece, the Balkans and northern Black Sea (CT culture).


As I said, I'd like to know which specific samples Kurd included in that "eastern" group other than LBK, so we can approximate how much Iran Neo/Chal. is sort of "hidden" in that, like WHG is hidden in the Spain Chalcolithic. I don't think the Portugal Neolithic which is also included in the western group has much WHG if I remember correctly, so I would doubt, if that's correct, that Western farmers in this calculator are 20-25% WHG.

----------


## Angela

I personally haven't seen any Western European farmer scores higher than these two. Since a poster from Romagna who also has some Emilian? has much less western farmer than I do, either full Emilians like my father have a lot more western farmer than people from Romagna because of the later Adriatic and Greek influence on the latter, and/or Ligurians have a lot of western farmer. The latter, at least, makes absolute sense to me, as Cardial/Impressa may have passed through Liguria (and coastal Toscana) to get to southern France and Spain. It would be nice to see the scores of a Sardinian and of some Spanish testees.



Basque poster:
*Ancient Farmers: 70.3
Western European Farmers: 43.2%
Levant: 3.7%
Neolithic & Chalcolithic Iran: 3%
Eastern European Farmers: 20.4%**


These are my scores:
*ANCIENT FARMERS74.3%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)39.2%LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.3%NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.4%EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.4%

----------


## Alan

> These are my results:
> 
> *Ancient Farmers: 70.3
> *Western European Farmers: 43.2%
> Levant: 3.7%
> Neolithic & Chalcolithic Iran: 3%
> Eastern European Farmers: 20.4%
> 
> *Steppe Cultures: 22.7%
> ...


Nice to have a Basque result too.

----------


## davef

> I personally haven't seen any Western European farmer scores higher than these two. Since a poster from Romagna who also has some Emilian? has much less western farmer than I do, either full Emilians like my father have a lot more western farmer than people from Romagna because of the later Adriatic and Greek influence on the latter, and/or Ligurians have a lot of western farmer. The latter, at least, makes absolute sense to me, as Cardial/Impressa may have passed through Liguria (and coastal Toscana) to get to southern France and Spain. It would be nice to see the scores of a Sardinian and of some Spanish testees.
> 
> 
> 
> Basque poster:
> *Ancient Farmers: 70.3
> Western European Farmers: 43.2%
> Levant: 3.7%
> Neolithic & Chalcolithic Iran: 3%
> ...


Did you make that map?

----------


## davef

> Does anyone know if Kurd has published precisely which samples, other than LBK, make up his "Eastern farmer" reference sample? LBK would have no Anatolia Chalcolithic/Anatolia Bronze. All I know, as I said, is that LBK is included, and that the samples are from 8,000 to 5,000 years ago.


I copied this from Dibran's post:

"References consist of genomes from Turkey, Greece, and other parts of SE Europe from the Neolithic period. These represent descendants of the first farmers to colonize Europe from the Near East."

I guess this is copied from the instruction manual that came with the cotton swab and whatever else is in the kit you ordered from gene plaza. It says that it's made of Neolithic farmers from Greece and Turkey. This is from a wiki:

"Neolithic settlements include Çatalhöyük, Çayönü, Nevali Cori, Aşıklı Höyük, Boncuklu Höyük Hacilar, Göbekli Tepe, Norsuntepe, Kosk, and Mersin."

So I guess it's comprised of the genomes of these people. 

The western component is western farmer, which is from ancient Spanish farmers. 

Peace out

----------


## Alan

> Not weird as in wrong, of course, or bad. I apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't expect any African to show up in mainland Greece. I would have thought even the East African would have disappeared by now. I don't understand the southeast Eurasian either. I normally see it as a trace of the South Asian in some steppe ancestry. Perhaps that's what happened. You just happen to have kept a trace of it. 
> 
> Still, I'd wait a day or so and maybe try it again.


The East African didn't disappear because it is indeed Natufian related DNA in East Africans. As written previously the calculator tries to model people as a mix of post early Neolithic populations. The East African component in this calculator is actually of modern samples as it is written by the component. 

So it is Levant-Neo/Natufian DNA that can not be explained by Levant_Neo/CHL. It could even have come from Bronze Age East Africa when East Africans where already heavily mixed with Levant-Neo like ancestry.

----------


## Ghani

> As I said, I'd like to know which specific samples Kurd included in that "eastern" group other than LBK, so we can approximate how much Iran Neo/Chal. is sort of "hidden" in that, like WHG is hidden in the Spain Chalcolithic. I don't think the Portugal Neolithic which is also included in the western group has much WHG if I remember correctly, so I would doubt, if that's correct, that Western farmers in this calculator are 20-25% WHG.


Here are the references for E European Farmer that Dilawer me:


Anatolia_N	I0707
Anatolia_N	I0708
Anatolia_N	I0709
Anatolia_N	I0744
Anatolia_N	I0745
Anatolia_N	I0746
Anatolia_N	I1580
Anatolia_N	I1581
Anatolia_N	I1583
Anatolia_N	I1585
Anatolia_N_Imputed	Bar8
Anatolia_N_Imputed	Bar31
Central_LNBA_Imputed	RISE150
Central_LNBA_Imputed	RISE577
Europe_EN	CB13
Europe_EN	I1505
Europe_EN	I1506
Europe_LNBA	I0099
Europe_LNBA	I0103
Europe_LNBA	I0104
Europe_LNBA	I0112
Europe_LNBA	I0117
Europe_LNBA	I0118
Europe_LNBA	I0164
Europe_MNChL	I1497
Europe_MNChL	Matojo
Greek_EN_Imputed	Rev5
Greek_LN_Imputed	Klei10
Greek_LN_Imputed	Pal7
Stuttgart_Imputed	LBK


These are for the W European Farmer:

Europe_MNChL	I0172
Europe_MNChL	I0408
Portugal_BA_Imputed	MonteGato104
Portugal_BA_Imputed	TV3831
Portugal_BA_Imputed	TV32032
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CabecoArruda122A
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CovaMoura9B
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CovaMoura364
Portugal_LN_Imputed	DolmenAnsiao96B
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto41
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto42
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto44
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP2
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP12-1420
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP16

----------


## Alan

My results
ANCIENT FARMERS71.8%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)14.8%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)6.8%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)21.4%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.8%

STEPPE CULTURES21.7%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)11.2%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.6%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)4.9%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 4.4%

AFRICAN 2.1%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)2.1%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)0.0%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%



Angela you are the only one beside Noman who has little more Karasuk Scythian scores. Noman make sense him being also a Indo_Iranian speaker. But your results are out of the ordinary. There is definitely something Alan like going on in your heritage.

I also score the East African 2.1% it is very similar figure to matadworf and Nomans s so I doubt his has anything to do with ancient Ethopians in Greece or Rajasthan. Rather ancient Natufian/Levant_Neo like DNA in East Africa.

What else I have in common with matadworfs is the South Eurasian. Greek and Indo_Iranian speakers must be from a similar source that still had traces of this ancestry?

I am the person with the highest extra Iran_Neo/CHG scores here so far.

And not atypical for a non European, I have zero real WHG ancestry.

----------


## Ghani

> Does anyone know if Kurd has published precisely which samples, other than LBK, make up his "Eastern farmer" reference sample? LBK would have no Anatolia Chalcolithic/Anatolia Bronze. All I know, as I said, is that LBK is included, and that the samples are from 8,000 to 5,000 years ago.



Here are the references for E European Farmer that Dilawer emailed me:

Anatolia_N	I0707
Anatolia_N	I0708
Anatolia_N	I0709
Anatolia_N	I0744
Anatolia_N	I0745
Anatolia_N	I0746
Anatolia_N	I1580
Anatolia_N	I1581
Anatolia_N	I1583
Anatolia_N	I1585
Anatolia_N_Imputed	Bar8
Anatolia_N_Imputed	Bar31
Central_LNBA_Imputed	RISE150
Central_LNBA_Imputed	RISE577
Europe_EN	CB13
Europe_EN	I1505
Europe_EN	I1506
Europe_LNBA	I0099
Europe_LNBA	I0103
Europe_LNBA	I0104
Europe_LNBA	I0112
Europe_LNBA	I0117
Europe_LNBA	I0118
Europe_LNBA	I0164
Europe_MNChL	I1497
Europe_MNChL	Matojo
Greek_EN_Imputed	Rev5
Greek_LN_Imputed	Klei10
Greek_LN_Imputed	Pal7
Stuttgart_Imputed	LBK


These are for W European Farmer:

Europe_MNChL	I0172
Europe_MNChL	I0408
Portugal_BA_Imputed	MonteGato104
Portugal_BA_Imputed	TV3831
Portugal_BA_Imputed	TV32032
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CabecoArruda122A
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CovaMoura9B
Portugal_LN_Imputed	CovaMoura364
Portugal_LN_Imputed	DolmenAnsiao96B
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto41
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto42
Portugal_MN_Imputed	LugarCanto44
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP2
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP12-1420
Spain_Chl_Imputed	ATP16

----------


## Angela

> Here are the references for E European Farmer that Dilawer me:
> 
> 
> Anatolia_N I0707
> Anatolia_N I0708
> Anatolia_N I0709
> Anatolia_N I0744
> Anatolia_N I0745
> Anatolia_N I0746
> ...


Thank you very much Ghani. This is very useful. So, the western farmer component is definitely cloaking perhaps 20-25% WHG. Given those eastern farmer samples, I don't think there's going to be much cloaked Iran Neo in there, i.e. no Anatolian Chl/BA samples are included. 

A word of caution here: I've heard that the creator says that the Levant samples we have aren't very good, so that number may be higher, but perhaps the relative percentages are still useful. Does anyone know if that's also the case for the Iran like ancestry?

----------


## Angela

> Did you make that map?



That's a map posted on the internet by academics. Nothing unusual about it other than the fact that the "eastern" farmers are included along with the "western" farmers. Of course, as is now clear, the only farmers from outside of Europe included in this calculator are Anatolia Neolithic farmers.

Here's another version: This shared ancestry may partly explain how Tuscans and Albanians plot in relationship to one another, with Tuscans being "western" shifted. That western shift could be due to later Celtic/Germanic admixture in Tuscans as well, with Albanians and Balkan people in general getting, instead, a bit of Slavic ancestry.

----------


## Angela

> My results
> ANCIENT FARMERS71.8%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)14.8%
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)6.8%
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)21.4%
> EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.8%
> 
> STEPPE CULTURES21.7%
> KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)11.2%
> ...


That all makes sense to me, including the fact that there is something weird in the level of my "Scythian" versus other "steppe" ancestry. I really can't explain it. I do see that there were Sarmatian, not Alan, settlements near my father's area, but I'm usually pretty leery of small migrations like that really impacting the genome, and moreover lasting for 1500 years. It may have something to do with the fact that some people fled up into the Apennines in the Dark Ages and remained there until the early part of the 20th century. Drift may have done the rest. 

Steppe: 25.7
E.Karakuk, Scythian 12.6
Andronovo/Srubnaya 5.3
Yamnaya 7.8



How I wish I had had the opportunity to have him tested.

----------


## noman

> I'd guess Indian, and given the high "steppe", I'd say perhaps Northwest Indian and high caste? I don't know if Afghan would be possible.
> 
> It's interesting how the Iran Neo type farmer is so much higher but brought along Western (Anatolian) and Levant farmer genetic material along with it, probably because a certain amount of admixture had already taken place.
> 
> Another interesting thing is that the steppe substructure is divided pretty evenly. Could that mean that the steppe like groups that went to India were already pretty well admixed, for example perhaps in Bactria? 
> 
> I wouldn't have guessed that the Southeast Eurasian component was the smallest, although not by much. 
> 
> This is all speculation, but you did ask. :)


Thank you so much!

I belong to the Jatt ethnic group of Indian Subcontinent, majority in North Western region. Some theories claim that they were Indo-Scythian. However, I am not sure.

----------


## davef

> That's a map posted on the internet by academics. Nothing unusual about it other than the fact that the "eastern" farmers are included along with the "western" farmers. Of course, as is now clear, the only farmers from outside of Europe included in this calculator are Anatolia Neolithic farmers.
> 
> Here's another version: This shared ancestry may partly explain how Tuscans and Albanians plot in relationship to one another, with Tuscans being "western" shifted. That western shift could be due to later Celtic/Germanic admixture in Tuscans as well, with Albanians and Balkan people in general getting, instead, a bit of Slavic ancestry.


Thanks! You said "that number may be higher" with regards to levant Neolithic; by "may be higher" you meant that if he gets better quality samples, it'll go up in some cases?

----------


## Angela

> Thanks! You said "that number may be higher" with regards to levant Neolithic; by "may be higher" you meant that if he gets better quality samples, it'll go up in some cases?


So he speculates, but until we have better Levant Neolithic sources there's no way of knowing if that would be the case, and if it were to be the case, how big the difference might be. Still, one would think the relative proportions might remain the same.

----------


## curiouscat

Here's mine

----------


## Jovialis

Just placed an order for 23andme, mainly because I would like to try this app.

----------


## Aha

> Just placed an order for 23andme, mainly because I would like to try this app.


23andme is now using v5 new Global Screening Array chips that overlaps v4 and v3 only on 20% of the SNPs. Kurd's calculator was tailored for v4, v3 23andme, current FTDNA and Ancestry kits.
Your new test will be done using new v5 chip, thus the rest of the 80% SNP data will be imputed, rendering the result of Kurd's test very inaccurate. Living DNA has the same issue with GSA chips and unstable results on such tests.

I would suggest converting anything you have into the 23andme format, as there is much bigger overlap between the OmniExpress chips.

----------


## Jovialis

> 23andme is now using v5 new Global Screening Array chips that overlaps v4 and v3 only on 20% of the SNPs. Kurd's calculator was tailored for v4, v3 23andme, current FTDNA and Ancestry kits.
> Your new test will be done using new v5 chip, thus the rest of the 80% SNP data will be imputed, rending the result of Kurd's test very inaccurate. Living DNA has the same issue with GSA chips and unstable results on such tests.
> 
> I would suggest converting anything you have into the 23andme format, as there is much bigger overlap between the OmniExpress chips.


Thanks for the info, but who is Kurd? Do you mean Dilawer Khan's K12 Ancient Admixture Calculator? I thought that's who made it.

----------


## Alan

> Here's mine


If you are really Iberian, there is absolutely no way this are your results. Your farmer ancestry is on level with that of Northern Europeans. So with goodwill the West European Farmer ancestry is 35%. Far too low for an Iberian. You have more Karasuk-Scythian than the Jatt user here who is under the Indo_Iranian branch.

Either this is not your result, or you are lying about your ethnicity. Looking at the results you look like a very mixed European individual (new worlder?).

----------


## Jovialis

> If you are really Iberian, there is absolutely no way this are your results. Your farmer ancestry is on level with that of Northern Europeans. So with goodwill the West European Farmer ancestry is 35%. Far too low for an Iberian. You have more Karasuk-Scythian than the Jatt user here who is under the Indo_Iranian branch.
> Either this is not your result, or you are lying about your ethnicity. Looking at the results you look like a very mixed European individual (new worlder?).


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517469
He said in another thread he was mostly eastern Slavic. Looks he got caught and banned for his deception and ********.

----------


## Angela

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517469
> He said in another thread he was mostly eastern Slavic. Looks he got caught and banned for his deception and ********.


First he said he was Eastern Slavic, and denied he was Iberian when questioned. Then he put down Iberian/Celt on his identification. Oh, and he's posting from London.

He may be some Pole posting from London, but who knows if those results are even his. 

You see the games people play? Some of them are good at it. He isn't. 

I don't care what or who he is, but you can't play these games here.

----------


## Aha

> Thanks for the info, but who is Kurd? Do you mean Dilawer Khan's K12 Ancient Admixture Calculator? I thought that's who made it.


Yes, Kurd is his alias on Anthrogenica. He is using it for feedback

----------


## Jovialis

> Yes, Kurd is his alias on Anthrogenica. He is using it for feedback


Hopefully by the time my results are ready, he will be able to work out the kinks with the new v5. Like I said, I was specifically motivated to purchase 23andMe, so I could do the K12 calculator. I actually e-mailed the creators of the insitome test, linking the geneplaza k12 test; asking them to consider making a test that was specifically for ancient ancestry. They responded thanking me for the suggestion. But who knows if they will do it or not.

I'm also interested in the Ethnicity Calculator app they have on the geneplaza platform.





> First he said he was Eastern Slavic, and denied he was Iberian when questioned. Then he put down Iberian/Celt on his identification. Oh, and he's posting from London.
> 
> He may be some Pole posting from London, but who knows if those results are even his. 
> 
> You see the games people play? Some of them are good at it. He isn't. 
> 
> I don't care what or who he is, but you can't play these games here.


I always knew something was up with that guy. I honestly believe people who play those games have psychological disorders.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...hs-and-sadists

****** exhibit the Dark Tetrad; narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism.

----------


## Salento

About the 23andme Test.
The Company said that is going to use the left over v4 chips until they run out, but also the new v5 chips.
They said that they can't predict if a customer is going to get the v4, or the v5.

----------


## Jovialis

> About the 23andme Test.
> The Company said that is going to use the left over v4 chips until they run out, but also the new v5 chips.
> They said that they can't predict if a customer is going to get the v4, or the v5.


 :Thinking: 

This is a bit disconcerting, considering it will affect the results of the K12 calculator. Hopefully, they will be able to decipher which version I have after my results are finished.

On one hand, I would like to have the newest version. On the other, It will compromise the results of the k12 calculator; unless resolved by Kurd.

----------


## Salento

> This is a bit disconcerting, considering it will affect the results of the K12 calculator. Hopefully, they will be able to decipher which version I have after my results are finished.
> 
> On one hand, I would like to have the newest version. On the other, It will compromise the results of the k12 calculator; unless resolved by Kurd.


If there's still time Ask them about it, maybe they'll do it.
The name of the Raw data file has v4, or a V5 on it.

genome_Smith_J_v5_Full_20170917....

genome_Smith_J_v4_Full_20170917....

----------


## Jovialis

Looks like I will certainly get the v5 chip.

I seriously hope Kurd is able to tailor his app for this version. If not, he should put a disclaimer on it.

----------


## Sile

mine

ANCIENT FARMERS 69.1%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 24.4%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.0%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 6.2%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 35.4%

.................................................. ...............

STEPPE CULTURES 19.1%

KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 0.0%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 10.7%

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.4%

.................................................. ..........

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 7.9%


SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 3.2%

AFRICAN 0.8%
EAST AFRICAN (modern) 0.0%
WEST AFRICAN (modern) 0.8%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) 0.0%

----------


## noman

> mine
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS 69.1%
> 
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 24.4%
> 
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.0%
> 
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 6.2%
> ...


You got Scandinavian too. Nice!

----------


## Angela

^^Interesting there's so little steppe.

----------


## noman

> ^^Interesting there's so little steppe.


Just curious: Why most of the people get Steppe?

----------


## Angela

> Just curious: Why most of the people get Steppe?


It would have arrived not only with the Indo-European migrations of the Bronze Age, but with subsequent migrations within Europe, i.e. the migrations after the fall of Rome.

All modern Europeans are mixtures of these various groups, just in different proportions, although you might not think it to listen to some people. :)

----------


## Regio X

> mine
> ANCIENT FARMERS 69.1%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 24.4%
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.0%
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 6.2%
> EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 35.4%
> .................................................. ...............
> STEPPE CULTURES 19.1%
> KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 0.0%
> ...





> ^^Interesting there's so little steppe.


Curiously, less Steppe and more WHG than my family, but this is somewhat coherent with our GedrosiaDNA Near East Neolithic K13 results (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-K13-Admixture). Here I also have more Iranian Neo Admixture compared to my parents.

----------


## kingjohn

my results 
Attachment 9297


Attachment 9298


ANCIENT FARMERS78.6%WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)27.5%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)7.1%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)10.9%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)33.1%STEPPE CULTURES18.5%AFRICAN1.8%EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.7%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.4%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%


p.s
1.8% east african i thought i would score higher .....
i wonder about the 9% east scytian ......

----------


## LeBrok

> my results 
> Attachment 9297
> 
> 
> Attachment 9298
> 
> 
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS78.6%
> ...


Very interesting composition. Almost all farmer, but I wonder where did they hide your Caucasian admixture. You have 33% of East European Farmer, but they claim it is pre Bronze Age, IIRC. Can you post your harappa results from gedmatch, thanks.

----------


## kingjohn

sure no problemo :)
i think my west asian is hiding in the 10.9 % neolithic chl iran+ 9% east scytian 

Population


S-Indian
0.05

Baloch
10.86

Caucasian
32.14

NE-Euro
16.18

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.76

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.44

American
0.13

Beringian
0.21

Mediterranean
24.17

SW-Asian
14.38

San
0.06

E-African
0.35

Pygmy
0.19

W-African
0.06

----------


## LeBrok

> sure no problemo :)
> i think my west asian is hiding in the 10.9 % neolithic chl iran+ 9% east scytian 
> 
> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> 0.05
> 
> ...


You look like typical Ashkenazi. Just with a bit elevated Baloch and a bit lower Med and SW-Asian, probably complements of what you call Thracian, 3-4 generations ago.
There was a recent research paper which said that Ashkenazi are in 30% ancient Jews, 55% Greek or South Italian, 5% NW European (German/Dutch), and 10% East European (Polish, Belarus, Ukrainian).
Coincidently, with such admixture, Ashkenazi have similar genetic admixtures like Greek Islanders. 

I have no idea then why this K12 gives you such low Levant Farmer ancestry, or high 10% of Scythian? 10% Yamnaya could have been closer to the truth. Anyway, I'm not a fan of this ancient k12 conclusions.

----------


## davef

Yeah, I've seen quite a few Sephardic Jewish scores on anthrogenica, and they get something like 50 percent mid eastern then the other half is something Balkan/Italian with some small amts of Iberian or North African. I guess an Ashkenazic Jew would look like this with the Iberian or North African score replaced with German or Slavic. The largest part that makes up the euro half is "Greek" or "Italian" but since there's little ibd between Jews and modern Italians or Greeks, it has to be from mixing with ancient Greeks or some other ancient med population similar to them.

----------


## kingjohn

in euroasia k14 neolithic i score 9.7% afansievo yamnya 
so at least 10% steppe 

which i do score i didn't gave the break up of the steppe 
5.5% yamya + 3.8% andronovo = tahts close to the 10% in euroasia k14 neolithic

----------


## kingjohn

my *k14 neolithic* i score huge farmer there like in the k12 test 
the kalash could be the scytian they have indo iranian elment in them 
and i score 8% indo iranian in dna land and gencove 
so at least 10% steppe + 9% indo iranian elment of the scytian =19% 

Population


N_Amerindian
0.81

*Afansievo_Yamnaya*
*9.98*

Kalash
7.68

Siberian
0.48

S_Amerindian
-

Sub_Saharan
-

SE_Asian
-

E_African
-

SW_Asian
22.31

*Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers*
*16.59*

SHG_WHG
3.49

*Early_European_Farmers*
*34.36*

S_Indian
4.22

Papuan
0.09

----------


## Angela

Kingjohn, as I think Kurd explained, the context is important. 

I see that northeast Europeans, some Ukrainians, etc. get proportionally higher Karakuk-E.Scythian than other Europeans. Is it possible, do you think, that it has something to do with the perhaps 10% East European in the Ashkenazim? Do you see the disproportion in the genomes of other Eastern European Jews?

I think it may pick up some Siberian and East Asian in some people. In my own case, I've wondered if it is somehow correlated to how I got my U2e mtDna, and the slivers of "Korean" and general East Asian I have in autosomal analysis.

----------


## Sile

> Curiously, less Steppe and more WHG than my family, but this is somewhat coherent with our GedrosiaDNA Near East Neolithic K13 results (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-K13-Admixture). Here I also have more Iranian Neo Admixture compared to my parents.


I think this "more WHG" might be my maternal line as I only have matches with Swedes, Finns and eastern alps Italians ................

East Euro farmer % might be around modern Moldovia and south Ukraine where I get some AuDna matches

----------


## kingjohn

> Kingjohn, as I think Kurd explained, the context is important. 
> 
> *I see that northeast Europeans, some Ukrainians, etc. get proportionally higher Karakuk-E.Scythian than other Europeans. Is it possible, do you think, that it has something to do with the perhaps 10% East European in the Ashkenazim? Do you see the disproportion in the genomes of other Eastern European Jews?*
> 
> I think it may pick up some Siberian and East Asian in some people. In my own case, I've wondered if it is somehow correlated to how I got my U2e mtDna, and the slivers of "Korean" and general East Asian I have in autosomal analysis.


it might be angela hard to tell lets just say that more tahn likely that my eastern european genes will go to the steppe components 
rather than the farmers .
but it could be just sharing the Iranian element of those east scytian 
i think the fact that i scored 8% indo Iranian in both dna land gencove , 6% pashton in my origins 1.0 and 3.5% Pakistan in DNA tribes SNP
pushing more to that option than the eastern european genes 
more than likely that in 
in a non -jewish Ukrainians it could be eastern european alleles that are shared with the east Scythian 
kind regards
adam

----------


## Sile

> You got Scandinavian too. Nice!


It must be my 4 x mtdna matches via my H95a marker ( only Scania and gotland matches so far ) in Sweden

----------


## noman

> It would have arrived not only with the Indo-European migrations of the Bronze Age, but with subsequent migrations within Europe, i.e. the migrations after the fall of Rome.
> 
> All modern Europeans are mixtures of these various groups, just in different proportions, although you might not think it to listen to some people. :)


Aha! Thanks for sharing. I used to think why I have a bunch of European matches in my gedmatch, and this could be the reason.

----------


## noman

> It must be my 4 x mtdna matches via my H95a marker ( only Scania and gotland matches so far ) in Sweden


How do you find all these markers; is there a test for that?

----------


## kingjohn

> Here is mine 
> 
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS66.1%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)35.3%
> 
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.6%
> 
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)5.6%
> ...



from where in spain your roots came ?
regards
adam

----------


## kingjohn

ok i checked 
your roots in galicia spain :)
surprising the low whg 
it is north west Spain 
but i guess most of it is hiding in your west farmers + steppe 
adam

----------


## AdeoF

Yeah who knows to be honest but yes it's from north west Spain. It could be ancient iberian dna which why the whg is low. Also explains the African dna

----------


## kingjohn

did you saw other Spaniards results 
do they look like yours ?
i am not talking about basques here ...

----------


## AdeoF

I haven't seen other results from Spanish people yet. But hey at least we got a idea now about the Iberian results

----------


## Hauteville

> Here's mine:
> Greek/Peloponnese
> 
> Ancient Farmers 76.7
> 
> Western Euro Farmers 34.8
> Levant 5.1
> Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran CHG 5.5
> East Euro Farmers 31.2
> ...


I really score similar results of yours.

ANCIENT FARMERS 77.9%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 27.4%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 6.7%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 11.1%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 32.8%

STEPPE CULTURES 14.1%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 4.3%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 1.7%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.0%


AFRICAN 4.4%
EAST AFRICAN (modern) 4.4%
WEST AFRICAN (modern) 0.0%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 2.9%

----------


## davef

Is the East African that Hauteville, Matadworf and AdeoF scored Neolithic ancestry mislabeled as East African?

----------


## Angela

> Is the East African that Hauteville, Matadworf and AdeoF scored Neolithic ancestry mislabeled as East African?


I doubt it, because some people get West African, including Kingjohn.

In his case it might be because he has Sephardic ancestry perhaps. North African Sephardic Jews absorbed some Berbers who may have carried traces of it. Through them it might have spread to other Jews.

I would also bet, for instance, that in areas in Portugal with historical evidence of settlement by people from the New World, and where we see a lot of West African uniparental lines people might get some West African.

Another point to mention is that East African is about 40% West Eurasian on average, which is why at 23andme Ethiopians came out looking like mulattoes of a sort.

----------


## Hauteville

Maybe this East African admix could be related to ancient Natufians no?

----------


## Angela

> Maybe this East African admix could be related to ancient Natufians no?


I'm not sure. It's been shown multiple times in multiple papers and separate analyses that Natufians carried no SSA. 

I think there might be two reasons for East African showing up in West Asians and Southern Europeans. One is back flow from West Eurasia into Africa, which we now know, from numerous papers, actually happened. We also know those genes were very "farmer" like or Natufian like, perhaps. With these kinds of tests, unlike IBD tests, you can't tell the direction of gene flow. 

On the other hand, I've speculated many times that over the years there might have been some minor movement north of East African genes, themselves approximately 40% or so West Eurasian, reaching into West Asia and perhaps southeast Europe and beyond, as we can see from the Spanish result. There's a sort of diffusion of minor ancestry. The same thing happened in Eastern Europe, with some Eastern Europeans in this analysis getting minor eastern ancestry. Then, of course, there's the Finnish speakers with their Siberian/East Asian ancestry. That applies to northern Russians as well. Where different ethnic groups abut each other, there's bound to be some diffusion of genetic material. 

West African ancestry is different. The diffusion in ancient times would be up the west coast of Europe. In more modern times, since the Arab slave trade, some West African women, primarily, might have been brought into West Asia, although from things I've read, most of them were from East Africa. So, I bet some Palestinians, Jordanians, Saudis, etc. would get West African. I would think Egyptians would have it too. It might have been in the Berbers to some minor degree even before the Arab slave trade, so perhaps some will show up in Iberia. In the latter you would also have a few people who get it from back flow from the New World.

The comparison here is with 23andme, where in even the most southern areas of Europe some people only get very minor "African", perhaps .4 or something. My theory is that this is either a minor element of some ancient "East African" that may be present, or a tiny amount passed on by Berbers. It could also just be noise, however. The only reason that I don't consider my .2 East Asian noise is because I've seen numerous people from my area get it. 

Speaking of noise, I think I remember that the "noise" parameter for this test is at least 1%, so there's that to consider as well. 

We're talking about very minor ancestry here, of course. 

Anyway, this is all conjecture on my part. Someone should ask the creator of the test.

----------


## kingjohn

> I doubt it, because some people get West African, including Kingjohn.
> 
> In his case it might be because he has Sephardic ancestry perhaps. North African Sephardic Jews absorbed some Berbers who may have carried traces of it. Through them it might have spread to other Jews.
> 
> I would also bet, for instance, that in areas in Portugal with historical evidence of settlement by people from the New World, and where we see a lot of West African uniparental lines people might get some West African.
> 
> Another point to mention is that East African is about 40% West Eurasian on average, which is why at 23andme Ethiopians came out looking like mulattoes of a sort.



*not me angela i score 1.8% east african thats it
my brother and father score 2-3% west african ....
the most wierd stuff in kurd calculator*  :Laughing: 
my mother score like me 1.8 east african ....
anyway my father and brother are 97% caucasoide ...... { not counting african elments and the eastern non african elment}
regards
Adam

----------


## Angela

> *not me angela i score 1.8% east african thats it
> my brother and father score 2-3% west african ....
> the most wierd stuff in kurd calculator* 
> my mother score like me 1.8 east african ....
> anyway my father and brother are 97% caucasoide ...... { not counting african elments and the eastern non african elment}
> regards
> Adam


Sorry that I misremembered Kingjohn, but at least I got the family and ancestry right. :)

If you don't mind my asking, is there any Sephardic ancestry in his family which might have come in part via North Africa?

----------


## davef

> Maybe this East African admix could be related to ancient Natufians no?


Wait, this could be right! I've noticed that it says modern in parentheses next to AdeoF's scores so I guess if it doesn't say this, then it's ancient admixture. Somalians have a lot of non sub Saharan which is farmer/natufian.

----------


## kingjohn

> Sorry that I misremembered Kingjohn, but at least I got the family and ancestry right. :)
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, is there any Sephardic ancestry in his family which might have come in part via North Africa?



yes my father is 39% sefhardic acording to my origins 2.0 
your theory of berber sound right to me or even the moors themselfs :)
some other iberian: from south iberian posted his results in anthrogenica and he scored some west african like my father 
so maybe :
west africa- north african - moorish invasion - iberia - sefhardic migration to damascus syria 
my father passed a segment to me that we share with iberian non jewish from navarre area and he can trace ancestery to navarre from both lines back to 1600 :)
so some sefhardic jews converted to escape the expled .
my father and i both have number of matches with mexicans ,puerto -ricans and some ,colombians inline with sefhardic ancestery .
i score 36% sefhardic in my origins 2.0 also huge % .
regards
Adam

----------


## Angela

> yes my father is 39% sefhardic acording to my origins 2.0 
> your theory of berber sound right to me or even the moors themselfs :)
> some other iberian: from south iberian posted his results in anthrogenica and he scored some west african like my father 
> so maybe :
> west africa- north african - moorish invasion - iberia - sefhardic migration to damascus syria 
> my father passed a segment to me that we share with iberian non jewish from navarre area and he can trace ancestery to navarre from both lines back to 1600 :)
> so some sefhardic jews converted to escape the expled .
> my father and i both have number of matches with mexicans ,puerto -ricans and some ,colombians inline with sefhardic ancestery .
> i score 36% sefhardic in my origins 2.0 also huge % .
> ...


Thanks, King John. Great info.

It could have been absorbed in Spain, or it could have been absorbed right in North Africa if they stopped over there, although if my memory serves, most North African Jews didn't show SSA in modern calculators. It would be interesting to see how they score in this test, however.

----------


## AdeoF

Oh wow DaveF that's really interesting and it also makes sense because I got neolithic DNA aswell.

----------


## Angela

People, everybody in Europe has neolithic farmer ancestry. 

Please read some papers, starting perhaps with Haak et al, and continuing with Lazaridis et al

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14317.html

https://www.nature.com/nature/journa...ture19310.html



I'll also say it again. *There is no SSA in Natufians*, although there is Natufian in Africans.

----------


## matadworf

> I really score similar results of yours.
> 
> ANCIENT FARMERS 77.9%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 27.4%
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 6.7%
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 11.1%
> EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 32.8%
> 
> STEPPE CULTURES 14.1%
> ...


Interesting. Are you from Southern Italy?

----------


## Hauteville

> Interesting. Are you from Southern Italy?


Yes, right.

----------


## Hauteville

> Wait, this could be right! I've noticed that it says modern in parentheses next to AdeoF's scores so I guess if it doesn't say this, then it's ancient admixture. Somalians have a lot of non sub Saharan which is farmer/natufian.


It's also strange because in no one else other calculator i score African...not even North African, let alone East Africa. So strange...

----------


## Hauteville

> From a quick look at the chatter about this test, it seems that the Karasuk-E Scythian score is highest among Europeans in Balts and Northern Slavs, which some are explaining as because this group left the steppe after the Celtic/Italic groups and so shared more ancestry with Iranic speaking peoples.
> 
> That doesn't answer why mine is so high. It doesn't surprise me, because, as I said, I consistently get 1-2% of something Yakut or East Asian like, and so do quite a few northwestern Italians with whom I share.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is a smidgen of Alan ancestry increasing the levels.
> 
> See: 
> http://www.marres.education/sarmatic_traces.htm
> 
> ...


A mixed Sarmatian-Germanic tribe called Taifals settled into Emilia-Romagna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifals

----------


## Angela

> A mixed Sarmatian-Germanic tribe called Taifals settled into Emilia-Romagna.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifals


Thanks, Hauteville. I never knew this. They were even actually around Parma itself. 

"Subsequent to their defeat and falling out with Athanaric, the Taifals were officially resettled as _coloni to farm lands in northern Italy (Modena, Parma, Reggio, Emilia) and Aquitaine by the victorious general Frigeridus.[26]"

_I'm going to do some more investigating. 

Oh, btw, there's a typo upthread. It's .2% East Asian that I get at 23andme, and high Scythian on this test.

----------


## kingjohn

*my father score 12% Scythian in Kurd calculator :)
but he score no yamnaya at all 
i think it is indo-iranian connection in my father case .
the highest % of Scythian in Europe in Kurd calculator is in Finns close to 20%
and in anthrogenica some ukranians and Romanians score 11-13% Scythian could be Iranian tribes .*

----------


## Angela

> *my father score 12% Scythian in Kurd calculator :)
> but he score no yamnaya at all 
> i think it is indo-iranian connection in my father case .
> the highest % of Scythian in Europe in Kurd calculator is in Finns close to 20%
> and in anthrogenica some ukranians and Romanians score 11-13% Scythian could be Iranian tribes .*


I get 13%, but I have another 13% split between the other two ancient steppe samples: Yamnaya and Andronovo.

It seems pretty specific to my particular ancestry because I don't see other Italians getting that imbalance or that high a score for the Scythian. Well, it could be specific to a certain area of Italy, as I do know other people from mountainous inland Liguria and western Emilia got that .2, .3% East Asian as well. I don't know how they would score for the Scythian. 

Isn't there some mythology that the horsemen/cavalry that helped the historical "King Arthur" were "Sarmatians", or was that just Hollywood history? I have to say I've been fascinated by the Arthur legend since I was a girl, so that would be cool. :)

Another thing that occurs to me is that in addition to these "Sarmatians", it's been speculated that some of the Goths and Lombards carried far northeastern European ancestry originally. That's another possibility. 

One of the little oddities of history, I guess.

----------


## davef

> It's also strange because in no one else other calculator i score African...not even North African, let alone East Africa. So strange...


Could be the genes that are caught by the "Red Sea" component from Eurogenes. Makes sense since East Africa runs along the Red Sea.

----------


## kingjohn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMA1JEd7U3s
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryofthewo...TgWE6kzMB3n79w
p.s

and yes i think you are correct in *eurogenes k13* north Italians score higher* Baltic* than other Italians 
could be Lombard or the goth who brought this element to Italy 
or at least increased it were they settled .

----------


## Angela

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMA1JEd7U3s
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryofthewo...TgWE6kzMB3n79w
> p.s
> 
> and yes i think you are correct in *eurogenes k13* north Italians score higher* Baltic* than other Italians 
> could be Lombard or the goth who brought this element to Italy 
> or at least increased it were they settled .


Thanks for the links, Kingjohn. I had thought perhaps it was totally fake "Hollywood" history, but it seems there was a little nugget of truth in there. Obviously, from the prior links, some of these Sarmatians who fought for the Romans didn't return to the Ukraine, but were settled on Italian land in Emilia as well as elsewhere in the Empire.

As for the battle, I have ancestry, it seems, from all three groups...Romans, Celt-Ligurians, and now Sarmatians. I think if people could think of ancient history in this way it might lessen modern animosities. It has certainly broadened my own world view. :)

----------


## LeBrok

> *my father score 12% Scythian in Kurd calculator :)
> but he score no yamnaya at all 
> i think it is indo-iranian connection in my father case .
> the highest % of Scythian in Europe in Kurd calculator is in Finns close to 20%
> and in anthrogenica some ukranians and Romanians score 11-13% Scythian could be Iranian tribes .*


Genetically speaking Scythians looked more like East Europeans than Iranians. They spoke Iranian language but had not much genetic resemblance to today's Iranians or Indians. Furthermore, genetically they look Yamnaya like plus some European Farmer and Siberian hunter gatherer. Don't try to keep these calculators honest. ;)

----------


## Angela

> Genetically speaking Scythians looked more like East Europeans than Iranians. They spoke Iranian language but had not much genetic resemblance to today's Iranians or Indians. Furthermore, genetically they look Yamnaya like plus some European Farmer and Siberian hunter gatherer. Don't try to keep these calculators honest. ;)


Kingjohn never said that Scythians were like modern Iranians. That's why he used the term Indo-Iranians. Nor are modern Eastern Europeans equivalent to East Scythians or the Karasuk. 

"Abstract: During the 1st millennium before the Common Era (BCE), nomadic tribes associated with the Iron Age Scythian culture spread over the Eurasian Steppe, covering a territory of more than 3,500 km in breadth. To understand the demographic processes behind the spread of the Scythian culture, we analysed genomic data from eight individuals and a mitochondrial dataset of 96 individuals originating in eastern and western parts of the Eurasian Steppe. *Genomic inference reveals that Scythians in the east and the west of the steppe zone can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component. Demographic modelling suggests independent origins for eastern and western groups with ongoing gene-flow between them, plausibly explaining the striking uniformity of their material culture. We also find evidence that significant gene-flow from east to west Eurasia must have occurred early during the Iron Age.

...

In the East, we find a balanced mixture of mitochondrial lineages found today predominantly in west Eurasians, including a significant proportion of prehistoric hunter-gatherer lineages, and lineages that are at high frequency in modern Central and East Asians already in the earliest Iron Age individuals dating to the ninth to seventh century BCE and an even earlier mtDNA sample from Bronze Age Mongolia [49]. Typical west Eurasian mtDNA lineages are also present in the Tarim Basin [16] and Kazakhstan [8] and were even predominant in the Krasnoyarsk area during the 2nd millennium BCE [31]. This pattern points to an admixture process between west and east Eurasian populations that began in earlier periods, certainly before the 1 st millennium BCE [13,50], a finding consistent with a recent study suggesting the carriers of the Yamnaya culture are genetically indistinguishable from the Afanasievo culture peoples of the Altai-Sayan region. This further implies that carriers of the Yamnaya culture migrated not only into Europe [26] but also eastward, carrying west Eurasian genes—and potentially also Indo-European languages—to this region [17]. All of these observations provide evidence that the prevalent genetic pattern does not simply follow an isolation-by-distance model but involves significant gene flow over large distances.

All Iron Age individuals investigated in this study show genomic evidence for Caucasus hunter-gatherer and Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is consistent with the idea that the blend of EHG and Caucasian elements in carriers of the Yamnaya culture was formed on the European steppe and exported into Central Asia and Siberia [26]. All of our analyses support the hypothesis that the genetic composition of the Scythians can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and East Asian/north Siberian elements.

Concerning the legacy of the Iron Age nomads, we find that modern human populations with a close genetic relationship to the Scythian groups are predominantly located in close geographic proximity to the sampled burial sites, suggesting a degree of population continuity through historical times. Contemporary descendants of western Scythian groups are found among various groups in the Caucasus and Central Asia, while similarities to eastern Scythian are found to be more widespread, but almost exclusively among Turkic language speaking (formerly) nomadic groups, particularly from the Kipchak branch of Turkic languages (Supplementary Note 1). The genealogical link between eastern Scythians and Turkic language speakers requires further investigation, particularly as the expansion of Turkic languages was thought to be much more recent—that is, sixth century CE onwards—and to have occurred through an elite expansion process."

*https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615

As far as calculators are concerned, this is, imo, the best so far of the calculators comparing modern people to ancient samples, certainly far superior to any of the calculators based on modern clusters. You're free to disagree, of course, as it appears you do.

----------


## Angela

Karasuk culture and its expansion. You can see why they carried some East Asian.

----------


## LeBrok

> Kingjohn never said that Scythians were like modern Iranians. That's why he used the term Indo-Iranians. Nor are modern Eastern Europeans equivalent to East Scythians or the Karasuk. 
> 
> "Abstract: During the 1st millennium before the Common Era (BCE), nomadic tribes associated with the Iron Age Scythian culture spread over the Eurasian Steppe, covering a territory of more than 3,500 km in breadth. To understand the demographic processes behind the spread of the Scythian culture, we analysed genomic data from eight individuals and a mitochondrial dataset of 96 individuals originating in eastern and western parts of the Eurasian Steppe. *Genomic inference reveals that Scythians in the east and the west of the steppe zone can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component. Demographic modelling suggests independent origins for eastern and western groups with ongoing gene-flow between them, plausibly explaining the striking uniformity of their material culture. We also find evidence that significant gene-flow from east to west Eurasia must have occurred early during the Iron Age.
> 
> ...
> 
> In the East, we find a balanced mixture of mitochondrial lineages found today predominantly in west Eurasians, including a significant proportion of prehistoric hunter-gatherer lineages, and lineages that are at high frequency in modern Central and East Asians already in the earliest Iron Age individuals dating to the ninth to seventh century BCE and an even earlier mtDNA sample from Bronze Age Mongolia [49]. Typical west Eurasian mtDNA lineages are also present in the Tarim Basin [16] and Kazakhstan [8] and were even predominant in the Krasnoyarsk area during the 2nd millennium BCE [31]. This pattern points to an admixture process between west and east Eurasian populations that began in earlier periods, certainly before the 1 st millennium BCE [13,50], a finding consistent with a recent study suggesting the carriers of the Yamnaya culture are genetically indistinguishable from the Afanasievo culture peoples of the Altai-Sayan region. This further implies that carriers of the Yamnaya culture migrated not only into Europe [26] but also eastward, carrying west Eurasian genes—and potentially also Indo-European languages—to this region [17]. All of these observations provide evidence that the prevalent genetic pattern does not simply follow an isolation-by-distance model but involves significant gene flow over large distances.
> 
> All Iron Age individuals investigated in this study show genomic evidence for Caucasus hunter-gatherer and Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. This is consistent with the idea that the blend of EHG and Caucasian elements in carriers of the Yamnaya culture was formed on the European steppe and exported into Central Asia and Siberia [26]. All of our analyses support the hypothesis that the genetic composition of the Scythians can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and East Asian/north Siberian elements.
> ...


This is only mtDNA research. Autosomal part of Scythian is telling us that East asian portion was only about 2%, in Sarmatians even less. Unless we include Siberian as part of East Asian too. Then we have additional 6% more. 




> Kingjohn never said that Scythians were like modern Iranians. That's why he used the term Indo-Iranians. Nor are modern Eastern Europeans equivalent to East Scythians or the Karasuk.


 I mentioned it just to be sure that we all are on the same page.

----------


## Angela

> This is only mtDNA research. Autosomal part of Scythian is telling us that East asian portion was only about 2%, in Sarmatians even less. Unless we include Siberian as part of East Asian too. Then we have additional 6% more. 
> 
> I mentioned it just to be sure that we all are on the same page.


They did autosomal analysis too, LeBrok:

"We generated genome-wide capture data on a target set of 1,233,553 SNPs26,27 for six individuals: two Early Sarmatians from the southern Ural region (PR9, PR3, group #3 in Fig. 2; fifth to second century BCE), two individuals from Berel’ in East Kazakhstan (Be9, Be11, #6) dating to the Pazyryk period (fourth to third century BCE), and two individuals found in kurgan Arzhan 2 (A10, A17, #5) assigned to the Aldy Bel culture in Tuva (seventh to sixth century BCE). For Be9 and two additional individuals from east Kazakhstan (Is2 and Ze6, #4) dating to the Zevakino-Chilikta phase (ninth to seventh century BCE), we generated low coverage (<0.3x) whole genome datasets by shotgun NGS (Table 1, Supplementary Tables 20 and 21)."

----------


## Angela

> They did autosomal analysis too, LeBrok:
> 
> "We generated genome-wide capture data on a target set of 1,233,553 SNPs26,27 for six individuals: two Early Sarmatians from the southern Ural region (PR9, PR3, group #3 in Fig. 2; fifth to second century BCE), two individuals from Berel’ in East Kazakhstan (Be9, Be11, #6) dating to the Pazyryk period (fourth to third century BCE), and two individuals found in kurgan Arzhan 2 (A10, A17, #5) assigned to the Aldy Bel culture in Tuva (seventh to sixth century BCE). For Be9 and two additional individuals from east Kazakhstan (Is2 and Ze6, #4) dating to the Zevakino-Chilikta phase (ninth to seventh century BCE), we generated low coverage (<0.3x) whole genome datasets by shotgun NGS (Table 1, Supplementary Tables 20 and 21)."


You can see the relationship to other ancient samples here:

----------


## Sile

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMA1JEd7U3s
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryofthewo...TgWE6kzMB3n79w
> p.s
> and yes i think you are correct in *eurogenes k13* north Italians score higher* Baltic* than other Italians 
> could be Lombard or the goth who brought this element to Italy 
> or at least increased it were they settled .


Lombards originate in scania sweden before settling into the german-polish areas next to the burgundians
then moving to east-austria
and finally italy

----------


## Sile

> Curiously, less Steppe and more WHG than my family, but this is somewhat coherent with our GedrosiaDNA Near East Neolithic K13 results (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-K13-Admixture). Here I also have more Iranian Neo Admixture compared to my parents.


less steppe % can also mean that my line passed through the steppe areas far more back in time than others ................my "european" mark is set at 3410BC by the Yfull site.

and the only older negative SNP which I branch from, of which I am positive has only been found between modern Sofia Bulgaria and Azov Russia

----------


## kingjohn

> Lombards originate in scania sweden before settling into the german-polish areas next to the burgundians
> then moving to east-austria
> and finally italy


the remedello gedmatch kit in eurogenes k13 carry no baltic { if i am not wrong but i might be }
someone brought this elment to italy in the iron-age or maybe later by migration of germanic tribes like the vizogoth or lombards....
kind regards
adam

----------


## Hauteville

Remedello is a copper age culture, we have not a bronze age and iron age aDNA of Italy in this moment. The baltic admixture entered with IE cultures who settled the Italian peninsula as well as Sicily.

----------


## Angela

> Remedello is a copper age culture, we have not a bronze age and iron age aDNA of Italy in this moment. The baltic admixture entered with IE cultures who settled the Italian peninsula as well as Sicily.


I agree with that, but more would also have come in with the Goths and Lombards.

----------


## Jovialis

> 23andme is now using v5 new Global Screening Array chips that overlaps v4 and v3 only on 20% of the SNPs. Kurd's calculator was tailored for v4, v3 23andme, current FTDNA and Ancestry kits.
> Your new test will be done using new v5 chip, thus the rest of the 80% SNP data will be imputed, rendering the result of Kurd's test very inaccurate. Living DNA has the same issue with GSA chips and unstable results on such tests.
> I would suggest converting anything you have into the 23andme format, as there is much bigger overlap between the OmniExpress chips.


Anyone know if they made an update to accommodate the new version of 23andme? I tried contacting the company, but they haven't gotten back to me since September 28th. I just sent them a follow up e-mail.

----------


## Scolari

My values with FTDNA raw data

ANCIENT FARMERS73.1%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)31.6%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.6%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)9.4%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)26.5%
STEPPE CULTURES25.6%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)5.3%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)10.1%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)10.2%
AFRICAN1.3%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)1.3%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)0.0%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.0%

My values with 23 andme raw data

ANCIENT FARMERS70.4%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)26.6%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.2%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)10.5%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.0%
STEPPE CULTURES27.4%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)4.3%

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)13.3%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)9.8%
AFRICAN2.2%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)2.2%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)0.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)0.0%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.0%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%

----------


## Jovialis

> My values with FTDNA raw data
> ANCIENT FARMERS73.1%
> WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)31.6%
> LEVANT (4000-8000 years)5.6%
> NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)9.4%
> EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)26.5%
> STEPPE CULTURES25.6%
> KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)5.3%
> ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)10.1%
> ...


Just to put your results in a clearer perspective:

FTDNA vs 23andme

Farmers
*73.1*/ 70.4
//
*31.6* / 26.6
*5.6* / 5.2
9.4 / *10.5*
26.5 / *28.0*

Steppe
26.5 / *27.4*
//
*5.3*/ 4.3
10.1 / *13.3*
*10.2* / 9.8

Africans
//
1.3/ *2.2*
0.0/ 0.0

I bolded the higher values. Looks like it could vary by as much as 5%, depending on the kind of raw data you use. As in the case with the Western European Farmers comparison. But the rest seem pretty close. I was actually contemplating getting AncestryDNA sometime down the line. It would be interesting to compare those results to 23andme.

----------


## Angela

Those definitely look like Balkan results to me.

----------


## Jovialis

@ Aha,

Could you please link me the thread where Kurd said this about the V5 chip for 23andme? Geneplaza is not aware of this issue apparently.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Those definitely look like Balkan results to me.


Scolari's results? They look like the results of an Italian.

----------


## davef

> Scolari's results? They look like the results of an Italian.


I bet he is, he does have an Italian username.

----------


## Angela

Sorry, gentlemen, I would bet Balkan, maybe Albanian. On this particular calculator that's what fits the pattern. 

Scolari is, in the vast majority of cases, a northern Italian surname. Those results don't fit the pattern for northern Italians on this calculator.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.We9e0tenHIW

Those also aren't the kind of results a southern Italian would get.

Maybe he's a football fan. :)

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.We9e0tenHIW

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Sorry, gentlemen, I would bet Balkan, maybe Albanian. On this particular calculator that's what fits the pattern. 
> 
> Scolari is, in the vast majority of cases, a northern Italian surname. Those results don't fit the pattern for northern Italians on this calculator.
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Scolari&x=0&y=0#.We9e0tenHIW
> 
> Those also aren't the kind of results a southern Italian would get.


Because he is most likely not fully northern Italian (maybe southern Italian ancestor).

----------


## kingjohn

*north Italian score 4-8% whg in this calculator*

----------


## Sile

> *north Italian score 4-8% whg in this calculator*


so mine is near the max
WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 7.9%

or are you using some K36 results like mine below

----------


## Scolari

> Scolari's results? They look like the results of an Italian.


Yes you're right, I'm 65% from North Italy and 35% from Campania, South Italy. My CHG/Iran_N values are similar to the Southern Italians, Yamnaya values like a Northern Italians.

----------


## Angela

Mixed people are obviously going to get some results that aren't going to fit the Northern/Tuscan/Southern pattern for Italy. Also, it looks like Gheg Albanians look pretty much like a mix of 2/3 Northern Italian and 1/3 Southern Italian. :) Scolari's scores are very similar indeed to those of Dibran.

*Bulgarian/Gheg Albanian/Scolari*

*Ancient farmers: 65.7/74.8/73.4*
*Western: 19.8/31.2/31.6*
*Eastern: 35/34/26.5*
*Levant: 4.0/4.2/5.6*
*Iran Chal.: 6.8/5.4/9.4*

*Steppe: 30.9/25.1/25.6*
*Karasuk/E. Scythian: 10.1/7.0/5.3*
*Andronovo: 11.4/10.6/10.1*
*Yamnaya: 9.3/7.6/10.2*

*WHG/SHG: 1.9/0/0*
*E.African: 1.2/.3/1.3*
*Eastern Non-African: .3/0/0

*Oh, has anyone who is 100% Tuscan or Umbrian or something taken this and posted scores anywhere? That would be interesting.

Scolari, you might want to add to your profile that your ethnicity is Italian as it saves confusion given that you reside in Switzerland and thus "fly" the Swiss flag.

----------


## Scolari

I suppose East European Farmers are partly linked to Anatolia_Chl and the degree of affinity with Iran_N / CHG and Levant_N has acquired it through Anatolia_Chl. In fact, I am part of a Swiss Italian origin, which belongs to the Italian ethnic group, for which I had inserted the Swiss flag, but to create less confusion I replaced it as genetically more Italian

----------


## Jovialis

Uploading my raw data from the 23andme V5 chip, and I noticed this text I highlighted.

How many variants did other people upload initially?

----------


## Angela

> Uploading my raw data from the 23andme V5 chip, and I noticed this text I highlighted.
> 
> How many variants did other people upload initially?


If I'm remembering correctly I got the same message, and I have a much older kit.

----------


## Jovialis

> If I'm remembering correctly I got the same message, and I have a much older kit.


That's good, so there probably won't be a big discrepancy with the results as implied by Aha. Perhaps he misunderstood what Kush had said. I originally did 23andme, mainly to do this test.

In this chart we can see how many Autosomal SNPs each version tests for:



https://dna-explained.com/category/23andme/

----------


## Angela

> That's good, so there probably won't be a big discrepancy with the results as implied by Aha. Perhaps he misunderstood what Kush had said. I originally did 23andme, mainly to do this test.
> 
> In this chart we can see how many Autosomal SNPs each version tests for:
> 
> 
> 
> https://dna-explained.com/category/23andme/


Maybe I remembered incorrectly, then. I have the v3. 

That's a lot more snps for the V5, which you would think would make it more accurate.

----------


## Jovialis

My results are in:

*Ancient Farmers: 77.0%*
Western European Farmers: 31.1%Levant: 2.4%Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%

*Steppe Cultures: 16.8%*
Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%

*Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%*

----------


## Angela

^^The Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer number is unusual for a southern Italian. Would you mind telling us the name of your ancestral town? Are you aware of any ancestry from northern Italy?

----------


## AdeoF

> My results are in:
> 
> *Ancient Farmers: 77.0%*
> Western European Farmers: 31.1%Levant: 2.4%Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%
> 
> *Steppe Cultures: 16.8%*
> Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%
> 
> *Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%*


Yep even my Admixture is more like South Europe. Maybe one or more of your ancestors came to south Italy??

----------


## Jovialis

> ^^The Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer number is unusual for a southern Italian. Would you mind telling us the name of your ancestral town? Are you aware of any ancestry from northern Italy?


Altamura, and Molfetta; both in the province of Bari. They've come from there as far back as we can remember.

----------


## davef

> ^^The Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer number is unusual for a southern Italian. Would you mind telling us the name of your ancestral town? Are you aware of any ancestry from northern Italy?


Could just be the version. His results could be perfectly normal for this version.

----------


## Angela

Yes, I think you're right. We have to wait and see what other Southern Italians using v5 get.

----------


## davef

Plus Salento's results from the old one is real different from Jovialis's (is that how you spell? Lol) and he should "come out"  :Wink:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Innocent:  like he did using this one, inside jokes aside....

----------


## Salento

> ^^The Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer number is unusual for a southern Italian. Would you mind telling us the name of your ancestral town? Are you aware of any ancestry from northern Italy?


My Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer (4000-5000 years): 5.8%

The Rest is very similar to Jovalis.

----------


## Jovialis

> My Western European and Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer (4000-5000 years):
> 5.8%


Thanks for verifying that. You did v4 too, right?




> The Rest is very similar to Jovalis.


Again thank you, I was getting pretty disappointed since I've been waiting for a while to do this test. I'm glad to see we are once again similar.  :Good Job:

----------


## Salento

> Thanks for verifying that. You did v4 too, right?


Yes, but I only have part of data because I deleted the Geneplaza account. Wasn’t sure it was a real thing.
That’s all I can find:

----------


## Jovialis

> Yes, but I only have part of data because I deleted the Geneplaza account. Wasn’t sure it was a real thing.
> That’s all I can find:


I guess there isn't much discrepancy between v4 and v5 after all in regards to this calculator.

----------


## Salento

> I guess there isn't much discrepancy between v4 and v5 after all.


That’s not even half of data, sorry.
I wouldn’t conclude yet that there aren’t discrepancies between the chips.

----------


## Jovialis

> That’s not even half of data, sorry.
> I wouldn’t conclude yet that there aren’t discrepancies between the chips.


True, maybe not by sub-structures, but at least we know the Western & Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer part isn't bogus.

----------


## Jovialis

@Davef

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...128#post523128

Without you even adding context as to what you mean makes it even worse than the first time you said it.

----------


## davef

> @Davef
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...128#post523128
> 
> Without you even adding context as to what you mean makes it even worse than the first time you said it.


Oh..uh...whooops!!!  :Ashamed:  :Embarassed:  :Dunce: 

That was my adhd induced low impulse control at play!

i tend to forget that posting on this site should be approached a bit differently than sending a 
quick and nasty text to one of my friends...

----------


## tremainekamal

My results

(Ancestry DNA)

AFRICAN 83.2%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)16.0%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)67.2%

STEPPE CULTURES 5.9%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)0.0%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.9%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)0.0%

ANCIENT FARMERS 4.9%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)1.4%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.4%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)0.0%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)0.0%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 4.0%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 2.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) 0%

----------


## Johane Derite

My results ( LivingDNA ):

----------


## Promenade

ANCIENT FARMERS51.6%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 21.9%
21.9% 

LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 3.3%
3.3% 

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 5%
5.0% 

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 21.5%
21.5% 
STEPPE CULTURES34.0%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 10.8%
10.8% 

ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 14.8%
14.8% 

YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.4%
8.4% 34.0%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 13.7%
13.7%EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) .7%
0.7%AFRICAN0.0%SOUTHEAST EURASIAN0.0%

----------


## Angela

> My results ( LivingDNA ):


Here are Dibran's for comparison. Overall numbers are similar, but there are definitely some differences. Are you different kinds of Albanians? I believe he is Gheg, yes? If you are Tosk, then wouldn't this be the first time that differences have surfaced in terms of autosomal? I wonder, though, if the results would be different if you had used 23andme.

Another thing is that the patterns remain in that people from the Balkans have more Levant Neo and Iran ancestry than I do. Whatever hit the Balkans and southern Italy had less effect on Italy from Tuscany north.

*ANCIENT FARMERS* *74.8%*
*WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)**31.2%*
*LEVANT (4000-8000 years)**4.2%
* *NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)**5.4%
* *EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)**34%

**STEPPE CULTURES 25.1%
**
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)7%
**
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)10.6%YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)7.6%
0.1% results African*

----------


## Johane Derite

> Here are Dibran's for comparison. Overall numbers are similar, but there are definitely some differences. Are you different kinds of Albanians? I believe he is Gheg, yes? If you are Tosk, then wouldn't this be the first time that differences have surfaced in terms of autosomal? I wonder, though, if the results would be different if you had used 23andme.
> 
> Another thing is that the patterns remain in that people from the Balkans have more Levant Neo and Iran ancestry than I do. Whatever hit the Balkans and southern Italy had less effect on Italy from Tuscany north.


I have no known Tosk heritage on any side of the family, they are all Ghegs from Prishtina region of Kosovo reaching even up to Nis Valley territories.. Dibran is half Tosk half Gheg if i'm not mistaken.

----------


## Angela

> I have no known Tosk heritage on any side of the family, they are all Ghegs from Prishtina region of Kosovo reaching even up to Nis Valley territories.. Dibran is half Tosk half Gheg if i'm not mistaken.


So, perhaps full Ghegs versus half Tosk/half Ghegs have less ancient farmer overall (but a bit more Levant and Iran Chl), and less steppe as well, but they have WHG/SHG, which perhaps Tosks do not.

----------


## Johane Derite

> So, perhaps full Ghegs versus half Tosk/half Ghegs have less ancient farmer overall (but a bit more Levant and Iran Chl), and less steppe as well, but they have WHG/SHG, which perhaps Tosks do not.


Very interesting, I would be curious to see other gheg vs tosks and also try with another company maybe to see if there is a discrepancy

----------


## Angela

> Very interesting, I would be curious to see other gheg vs tosks and also try with another company maybe to see if there is a discrepancy


Yes, you'd need a lot more "pure" samples to draw any kind of even quasi reasonable conclusions. Also, the same raw data source would be important.

From results like this I can see why Albanians look like eastern shifted Tuscans.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Yes, you'd need a lot more "pure" samples to draw any kind of even quasi reasonable conclusions. Also, the same raw data source would be important.
> 
> From results like this I can see why Albanians look like eastern shifted Tuscans.


Very interesting and exciting.

Are there any Tuscans on this thread / forum? What did k12 show for them? I'm guessing less iran/levant more steppe?

----------


## Angela

> Very interesting and exciting.
> 
> Are there any Tuscans on this thread / forum? What did k12 show for them? I'm guessing less iran/levant more steppe?


Unfortunately not. I'm only about 1/4 Northwest Tuscan. The rest is 1/4 Eastern Ligurian (although that may not be that different from far northwest Tuscans) and 1/2 Northern Italian. Maybe one of the other Italian posters can find one.

You should see if you can find some "pure" Tosks, too. 

You ideally need about five samples from the same area to get reliable autosomal averages.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Unfortunately not. I'm only about 1/4 Northwest Tuscan. The rest is 1/4 Eastern Ligurian (although that may not be that different from far northwest Tuscans) and 1/2 Northern Italian. Maybe one of the other Italian posters can find one.
> 
> You should see if you can find some "pure" Tosks, too. 
> 
> You ideally need about five samples from the same area to get reliable autosomal averages.



I'll try my best :)

----------


## albannach

Here's my results. Surprised at how high the Scythian and Andronovo is and how low the Yamnaya and WHG is. Will be interesting to see how I compare to other Scots and Irish. 

ANCIENT FARMERS 46.1%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 14.3%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)2.9%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 0.0%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 28.9%

STEPPE CULTURES 38.1%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 10.3%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 18.7%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 9.1%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 15.8%

----------


## TopLobster

Tested with Living DNA, ancestry roughly 75% English, 25% mostly Scottish + some Irish
*
Ancient Farmers 54.7*West European Farmers 16.8Levant 3.9Neolithic-Chalolithic Iran-CHG 4East European Farmers 30
*Steppe Cultures 33.5*Karasuk-E Scythian 6.6
Andronovo-Srubnaya 15.4
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 11.6
*Western European & Scandianavian HGs 11.7
*

----------


## markozd

It's awesome that these results have essentially confirmed that the East-West differentation in Europe exists due to hunter gatherer admixture. The ancient Germanic samples published recently had hugely inflated WHG ancestry in the ADMIXTURE run, but I'm not sure how reliable this is. They plotted closer to Norwegians & Finns than to continental Germanics on the PCA.



In unadmixed Germanic migrants WHG was as high as ~25%, close to the results of Northerner posted earlier in the thread. Any Scandinavians/Finns who took the test?

Edit: these are the results of a Finn I found on theapricity. He has Y-DNA I1. I hope he doesn't mind:

----------


## Angela

> It's awesome that these results have essentially confirmed that the East-West differentation in Europe exists due to hunter gatherer admixture. The ancient Germanic samples published recently had hugely inflated WHG ancestry in the ADMIXTURE run, but I'm not sure how reliable this is. They plotted closer to Norwegians & Finns than to continental Germanics on the PCA.
> 
> 
> 
> In unadmixed Germanic migrants WHG was as high as ~25%, close to the results of Northerner posted earlier in the thread. Any Scandinavians/Finns who took the test?
> 
> Edit: these are the results of a Finn I found on theapricity. He has Y-DNA I1. I hope he doesn't mind:


So, modern continental Germanics are Finnish like people who picked up a lot more EEF? Why do they have so much WHG? It doesn't square with original estimates, does it?

----------


## markozd

> So, modern continental Germanics are Finnish like people who picked up a lot more EEF? Why do they have so much WHG? It doesn't square with original estimates, does it?


At least that's what it looks like to me. In the Amorim (2018) paper the Germanics from Late Antiquity are already differentiated from North-Eastern Europeans like Balto-Slavs, so I doubt the difference is just due to drift. Relative to modern Germanics also, most of the samples from Hungary/Italy take additional 'Finnish' admixture.

I'm not sure where this come from however, as I had thought that the early Germanics would be normal North-Central Europeans associated with Jastorf culture. That seems rather unlikely now considering those samples.

----------


## Promenade

Reminds me of the large amount of WHG ancestry in the Germanic like people from the Tollense battle

----------


## Angela

I've said for years that perhaps there was a reservoir of WHG like people in the north who were incorporated by arriving steppe people, and that it might inflate the amount of "steppe" ancestry that actually arrived, but people always discounted it.

Maybe there's something to it.

----------


## Northener

> Reminds me of the large amount of WHG ancestry in the Germanic like people from the Tollense battle


Yes see my K12:



But seems to be divers in the generation, my parents percentage is about 3 (father) a 4 (mother) % lower!

----------


## Promenade

I am going to make a very half ass theory here which there is no way to prove for now, but could these people from Tollense have received their excess WHG ancestry from Doggerland? Once this area flooded the inhabitants may have mostly fled south to Northwest Germany and the Benelux. We also know from Gotland that hunter gatherer traditions survived for a longer period of time alongside agriculture in Scandinavia so that could be another source.

----------


## Northener

> I am going to make a very half ass theory here which there is no way to prove for now, but could these people from Tollense have received their excess WHG ancestry from Doggerland? Once this area flooded the inhabitants may have mostly fled south to Northwest Germany and the Benelux. We also know from Gotland that hunter gatherer traditions survived for a longer period of time alongside agriculture in Scandinavia so that could be another source.


Along the North Sea there staid indeed a Ertebølle/ Swifterbant population.

But I have some doubts. On the one hand 20 a 25% WHG or SHG is much. But speaking for the North Dutch, after the Ertebølle came TRB, Corded Ware/Single Grave, Bell Beaker, Tumulus, Urnfield and in the early Middle Ages the Nordics/Germans.

So the chance I can distract an old dogger land HG in my DNA looks small....to me.


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Twilight

Hey guys, I was wondering what your Geneplaza.com K12 Ancient admixture results?

Im looking at my Geneplaza results and Im surprised that a whopping almost 1/2 of my Ancestry came to Europe through Neolithic Anatolia; roughly West+East European Neolithic.

I was wondering if this is just a fluke or did Neolithic Anatolian Ancestry did dominate the Europeans Ancestry? 
If so, why is Neolithic so mysterious with little artifacts, I would imagine that Neolithic Anatolia would be a densely populated place. Was the Neolithic Anatolian tools mostly biodegradable?
My Ancestry is Predominately Northwestern European with a Germanized Polish and Charente, French Minority. 


Thanks guys, Im over the moon with my DNA results currently. :)


WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years). 13.5%


ANCIENT FARMERS 54.2%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 29.5%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 5.2%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 4.4%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)15.2%STEPPE CULTURES 32.3%

----------


## Jovialis

I wanted to see what kind of results I would get for my Ancestry DNA raw data, but this app was no longer available on the page.

Which is a shame too, because this was the calculator he made, that made the most sense IMO.

----------


## Twilight

> I wanted to see what kind of results I would get for my Ancestry DNA raw data, but this app was no longer available on the page.
> 
> Which is a shame too, because this was the calculator he made, that made the most sense IMO.


Darn sorry about that, no wonder why somebody downvoted. Its a shame that AncestryDNA doesnt download raw data anymore, this link must be somewhat outdated. 

No matter, you can still download your Raw Data through 23andme and a LivingDNA, although Im sure there are other DNA companies where you can transfer raw data though. The alternative is that you can get a test tube through Geneplaza. 
Good luck :)
https://www.geneplaza.com/

----------


## Jovialis

I don't see a downvote.

----------


## Twilight

> I don't see a downvote.


My bad, I seriously need to use google translate. *laughing at myself* I think I might of self translated it wrong. I think Ive been away for a bit too long. :P

Italian: Visualizzazione risultati 1 fino 4 di 4
displaying results 1 to 4 of 4

----------


## TardisBlue

Hello,

these are my results. Mostly Ancient farmers:


ANCIENT FARMERS74.1%WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)22.3%

LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.1%

NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)7.5%

EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)40.3%STEPPE CULTURES21.1%WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)4.6%AFRICAN0.2%

----------


## Jovialis

I've combined Twilight's thread into the existing thread on this topic. Again, it is a pity that this calculator is no longer available.

These were my results:




> My results are in:
> 
> *Ancient Farmers: 77.0%*
> Western European Farmers: 31.1%Levant: 2.4%Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%
> 
> *Steppe Cultures: 16.8%*
> Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%
> 
> *Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%*

----------


## Twilight

> I've combined Twilight's thread into the existing thread on this topic. Again, it is a pity that this calculator is no longer available.
> 
> These were my results:


Thank you Jovialis, it appears that the Neolithic Anatolian results are way higher in Italy than in NW Europe. The results seem promising.

----------


## Regio X

> I guess that in the case of Funnelbeaker (west) there where two major neolithic influences:
> 
> a. an inland route, ''East European Farmer" from the Balkan:
> 
> https://www.thoughtco.com/funnel-beaker-culture-170938
> and
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5325568/
> 
> b. and a sea route, "West European Farmer" from the Mediterraenen area:
> ...


Indeed.



https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...urasia-New-Map

----------


## Angela

In light of the new map, here are my results. I get 0 for the minority ancestry.

For the farmer and steppe portions, see below. The only thing I don't understand is why I got higher numbers for certain steppe cultures than others:




ANCIENT FARMERS74.3%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)39.2%LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.3%NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.4%EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.4%








​



STEPPE CULTURES25.7%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)12.6%



ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.3%



YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.5%

----------


## Regio X

> In light of the new map, here are my results. I get 0 for the minority ancestry.
> For the farmer and steppe portions, see below. The only thing I don't understand is why I got higher numbers for certain steppe cultures than others:
> ANCIENT FARMERS74.3%WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)39.2%LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.3%NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)3.4%EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)28.4%
> 
> ​
> 
> STEPPE CULTURES25.7%KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)12.6%
> ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.3%
> YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 8.5%


No idea. The same happens with my mother,.with the difference her Karasuk/Scythian is low.

It's worth reading the page 5 of this thread, which shows the references for farmers. 
Curiously, LBK itself would have had actually little genetic impact on Europe.

Despite the explanations about Western Farmers cluster "eating" some WHG in the calculator, your results seem to be in line with Haak et al, with no WHG and some extra Yamnaya compared to Bergamo, while Bergamo has extra WHG compared to Tuscans.


Anyway, it's hard to believe Tuscans have no WHG at all.

If it's still on GedMatch, could you post your Near East Neolithic K13 results? It's under GedrosiaDNA.




> Me / Father / Mother
> 
> Ancient Farmers: 72.5 / 70.9 / 68.8
> - West European Farmers: 29.0 / 26.5 / 33.1
> - Levant: 3.0 / 4.8 / 3.1
> - Neolithic-Calcolithic Iran-CHG: 7.0 / 5.8 / 6.5
> - East European Farmers: 33.5 / 33.8 / 26.1
> 
> Steppe Cultures: 23.4 / 25.2 / 25.7
> ...


Eastern Non Africans? What is it?

----------


## Angela

> No idea. The same happens with my mother,.with the difference her Karasuk/Scythian is low.
> 
> It's worth reading the page 5 of this thread, which shows the references for farmers. 
> Curiously, LBK itself would have had actually little genetic impact on Europe.
> 
> Despite the explanations about Western Farmers cluster "eating" some WHG in the calculator, your results seem to be in line with Haak et al, with no WHG and some extra Yamnaya compared to Bergamo, while Bergamo has extra WHG compared to Tuscans.
> 
> 
> Anyway, it's hard to believe Tuscans have no WHG at all.
> ...


Don't know. 

It's not available anymore.

I'm surprised you have more Iran farmer than I do. Levant farmer is about the same. The WHG is different, but they're small percentages. I think the biggest difference is that I have more Cardial than you do. I don't think Eastern farmer is necessarily just LBK. I thought it was more the Hungarian Neolithic.

----------


## Regio X

> Don't know. 
> It's not available anymore.
> I'm surprised you have more Iran farmer than I do. Levant farmer is about the same. The WHG is different, but they're small percentages. I think the biggest difference is that I have more Cardial than you do. I don't think Eastern farmer is necessarily just LBK. I thought it was more the Hungarian Neolithic.


Yep. I consistently get some extra Iran farmer related ancestry in calculators, compared to my parents and other Venetians, so I assume it must be real. And my father, couriously, consistently gets traces of South Central Asian in some of them. 

I just checked GedrosiaDNA K13 is not available anymore. Anyway, I read somewhere that Gedrosia would be better for Western Asians. Perhaps MDLP is better for Europeans, as its K16 (I guess you'd like the Oracle). 

ED: correction.

----------


## Angela

> Yep. I consistently get some extra Iran farmer related ancestry in calculators, compared to my parents and other Venetians, so I assume it must be real. And my father, couriously, consistently gets traces of South Central Asian in some of them. 
> 
> I just checked GedrosiaDNA K13 is not available anymore. Anyway, I read somewhere that Gedrosia would be better for Western Asians. Perhaps MDLP is better for Europeans, as its K16 (I guess you'd like the Oracle).


Actually, all of you got more Iran Neo than I do, and your Dad has more Levant Neo. Genetics always surprises. 

Fwiw, I think any "extra" WHG (from what is in the farmers), seems to have a big effect on PCAs, perhaps because it is so divergent. 

As to the "steppe", my highest is "Scythian", and I get Scythian in my true ancesty, so at least that is consistent. 

I think I tried the MDLP, and it was better.

----------


## Regio X

> Actually, all of you got more Iran Neo than I do, and your Dad has more Levant Neo. Genetics always surprises. 
> 
> Fwiw, I think any "extra" WHG (from what is in the farmers), seems to have a big effect on PCAs, perhaps because it is so divergent. 
> 
> As to the "steppe", my highest is "Scythian", and I get Scythian in my true ancesty, so at least that is consistent. 
> 
> I think I tried the MDLP, and it was better.


Indeed. I guess Venetians must have a bit more compared to Tuscans then, and I have more than Venetians in general.

As for PCAs, I agree. Plus, they must be well done. I noticed that one based on K15, for example, may have a slight distortion in its coordinates, as per Oracle itself. Or perhaps one more dimesion would correct it?

Some Oracles in MDLP seem to work pretty well. 

Btw, Angela, please update the last quote. I mixed up names and put a completely wrong info in there. Thanks in advance.

----------


## Angela

> Indeed. I guess Venetians must have a bit more compared to Tuscans then, and I have more than Venetians in general.
> 
> As for PCAs, I agree. Plus, they must be well done. I noticed that one based on K15, for example, may have a slight distortion in its coordinates, as per Oracle itself. Or perhaps one more dimesion would correct it?
> 
> Some Oracles in MDLP seem to work pretty well. 
> 
> Btw, Angela, please update the last quote. I mixed up names and put a completely wrong info in there. Thanks in advance.


Sorry, Regio, but I don't know what you mean. I'm just having my coffee, so please excuse the muddled thinking. :)

Also, I'm only half Tuscan. Actually, 1/4 Tuscan/1/4 Eastern Ligurian. I think 100% Tuscans probably have Iran Neo even higher than your family, although I haven't seen the results of 100% Tuscans on this calculator.

----------


## Regio X

:)
You quoted a post of mine, and while you're typing your answer, I changed/corrected my post. So your answer quoted the old text, with a wrong info. That's what I meant when I asked you to update it. :)

Yeah, I forgot your father was in fact from Emilia. Even if from a place very close to Tuscany, I guess Tuscans from that area are more similar to W. Emilians than W. Emilians from Tuscans in general. Is that correct?

----------


## Angela

> :)
> You quoted a post of mine, and while you're typing your answer, I changed/corrected my post. So your answer quoted the old text, with a wrong info. That's what I meant when I asked you to update it. :)
> 
> Yeah, I forgot your father was in fact from Emilia. Even if from a place very close to Tuscany, I guess Tuscans from that area are more similar to W. Emilians than W. Emilians from Tuscans in general. Is that correct?


My father died before I got into this whole topic, and my father's brothers and sisters as well (he was much older than my mother), so the only people I could test are my older relatives in Italy, but they won't do it, even after I've offered to pay and other bribes as well. :)

All I can go on are my own results. On the old Dienekes calculators, my scores on the "components" were consistently in between the ones for Bergamo and the ones for Tuscans, with perhaps a slight "lean" on some of them toward Tuscans. 

I'm not surprised that there would be a difference between West Emilians and Tuscans: the Appennini are right smack between the two areas. Yes, there are passes, passes which have been used since time immemorial for trade and later as a pilgrim route (the Via Francigena). However, I doubt there was mass mingling. It's the same way the Alps functioned in northern Italy, and why as far back as Novembre et al there's a slight break in the European cline there, although not as large as the one south of Rome. 

In addition, the area from which my father's family came had no roads until almost 1920. It was mule tracks before that. That isolation, and the fact he was teaching in Parma is why Cavalli-Sforza did all his work there, especially his book on Consanguinity.

https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7800.html

I can't believe they're charging that. It's available elsewhere for much less. I'm not so sure any longer that the differences from the plain are just the result of drift. I have a feeling that the people on the plain may have changed somewhat due to later admixture, although there is drift from village to village. Some villages are much more "fair" in coloring than others, for example. 


That's the reason I started a thread on those people. They've all but disappeared. I wanted to memorialize them, even if my sense of identity is with my mother's people, among whom I was raised. There's some nonsense in the middle, but in the beginning and the end there are good pictures of them, members of my family included. 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nnino+Parmense

----------


## Angela

> My father died before I got into this whole topic, and my father's brothers and sisters as well (he was much older than my mother), so the only people I could test are my older relatives in Italy, but they won't do it, even after I've offered to pay and other bribes as well. :)
> 
> All I can go on are my own results. On the old Dienekes calculators, my scores on the "components" were consistently in between the ones for Bergamo and the ones for Tuscans, with perhaps a slight "lean" on some of them toward Tuscans. 
> 
> I'm not surprised that there would be a difference between West Emilians and Tuscans: the Appennini are right smack between the two areas. Yes, there are passes, passes which have been used since time immemorial for trade and later as a pilgrim route (the Via Francigena). However, I doubt there was mass mingling. It's the same way the Alps functioned in northern Italy, and why as far back as Novembre et al there's a slight break in the European cline there, although not as large as the one south of Rome. 
> 
> In addition, the area from which my father's family came had no roads until almost 1920. It was mule tracks before that. That isolation, and the fact he was teaching in Parma is why Cavalli-Sforza did all his work there, especially his book on Consanguinity.
> 
> https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7800.html
> ...


The only decent score I get at MDLP is for the run where he includes the academic "Piedmont" sample, which is actually the Ligurian Alps sample (for goodness sakes' all the towns have Ligure in the name, but these academics can't seem to figure it out), and probably a good reference for the quattro province area, the area between Pavia, Genova, Alessandria (Piemonte) and Emilia. I get a 4.73. Then comes Tuscany and North Italy. 

Here are Emilia and Toscana on PCAs. I would trust the first more than the second as it's an academic sample and they actually know for sure the ancestry of the samples. On the second PCA, based on K15 I don't know the ancestry of those people. I wish I knew the person who submitted the Lunigiana sample. That should be close to my mother's placement if he's 100% from there. Problem is I don't know if the Emilia samples plot where my father would have plotted. That's probably Bologna? He might be slightly different. I can't believe they won't test. Love them all to bits, but it's annoying. If my father had lived longer I wouldn't he bothering them. 






I found this one in my files. Going by Dodecad, I'd be on a line somewhere between Bergamo and Tuscan, but closer to Tuscan. However, this is not based on Dodecad, so I don't know. Maybe between North Italian and Tuscan. So maybe my Dad and his family would be in that "North Italian" group? Where specifically did that sample come from? Is it Bologna? If it is, I don't think that would necessarily be a great approximation for him.

----------


## Regio X

> My father died before I got into this whole topic, and my father's brothers and sisters as well (he was much older than my mother), so the only people I could test are my older relatives in Italy, but they won't do it, even after I've offered to pay and other bribes as well. :)
> 
> All I can go on are my own results. On the old Dienekes calculators, my scores on the "components" were consistently in between the ones for Bergamo and the ones for Tuscans, with perhaps a slight "lean" on some of them toward Tuscans. 
> 
> I'm not surprised that there would be a difference between West Emilians and Tuscans: the Appennini are right smack between the two areas. Yes, there are passes, passes which have been used since time immemorial for trade and later as a pilgrim route (the Via Francigena). However, I doubt there was mass mingling. It's the same way the Alps functioned in northern Italy, and why as far back as Novembre et al there's a slight break in the European cline there, although not as large as the one south of Rome. 
> 
> In addition, the area from which my father's family came had no roads until almost 1920. It was mule tracks before that. That isolation, and the fact he was teaching in Parma is why Cavalli-Sforza did all his work there, especially his book on Consanguinity.
> 
> https://press.princeton.edu/titles/7800.html
> ...


It's a pity they didn't agree to test. Perhaps if you try again, when you're there... 
I had some difficulty to convince maternal uncles to test, but at the end I got it. Unfortunately, the kit stopped at customhouse. Now I'm not sure it'll take its way.

Thanks for the links. 
I guess I found your father's place. Almost 1000 meters high, and surrounded by mountains. Indeed, this condition may have contributed for some genetic drift, as evidenced also by peculiar physical traits. It's exactly the opposite to my family, who came from several places in North Italy, some of them in plains. The result is that we have all "Europe" in family, in terms of phenotype. lol Well, not that much, but the variation is really big.

People are having few children, moving to big cities, the world is becoming more "globalized" etc. As I was saying in another thread, many things we care about will just pass, even before us. To balance it a bit, modernity offers ways to help on the job of keeping "reminiscences". It's what will remain. :) So, it's a good thing you do trying to keep memories. Cheers for that! 

As for the PCAs, wow! I didn't know I was in one. :) Very interesting! I really don't know where your father would plot, but I guess it wouldn't be far from the Lunigiana sample, for obvious reasons. 
Apparently MDLP K16 slightly changed. Especially its Oracle. Later I can try to post the new ones on the appropriated thread.

----------

