# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  T Haplogroup Caucasus

## Suleyman

Hello,

My nephew from the fatherside did the paternal dna test and got T haplogroup as result. We are from Chechnya, the most common haplogroup in Chechnya is J1, J2. Does someone know how the T haplogroup got in the North Caucasusus? Of did it spread from the Caucasus? I saw that there were people with a ( how do you say it ) similar ( mutation ) dna code from Libya and Portugal.. Could it be from the Phoenicians or Hourrites? I myself did the dna test and waiting for my results but im for 99 % sure that I will have the same dna code as him.

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## Sile

> Hello,
> My nephew from the fatherside did the paternal dna test and got T haplogroup as result. We are from Chechnya, the most common haplogroup in Chechnya is J1, J2. Does someone know how the T haplogroup got in the North Caucasusus? Of did it spread from the Caucasus? I saw that there were people with a ( how do you say it ) similar ( mutation ) dna code from Libya and Portugal.. Could it be from the Phoenicians or Hourrites? I myself did the dna test and waiting for my results but im for 99 % sure that I will have the same dna code as him.


one main way is via kazakstan then to dagestan
many T found in this 2017 paper


.
C3 - 41%
R1a - 9%
O3 - 6%
T - 6%

T haplogroup 4th most % found in Kazaks

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## Suleyman

The thing is, we are an isolated mountain folk with 'isolated' i mean we have very strict rules, we can mary only each other.. it is tabo to mix with other ethnicities.. We have to know the names till the 7th male ancestor.. I dont think we got it from Kazakhstan, bacause our family would know about it ...It has to be from way way back..Our (mutation) shows that its originated some 7500 years ago.. I was thinking maybe from the Hitto-Phoenicians who migrated after the fall of the Hurri-Urartu kingdom to Caucasus? But still the question is I didn't find in the Chechen DNA project anyone else with a T haplogroup..

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## Sile

> The thing is, we are an isolated mountain folk with 'isolated' i mean we have very strict rules, we can mary only each other.. it is tabo to mix with other ethnicities.. We have to know the names till the 7th male ancestor.. I dont think we got it from Kazakhstan, bacause our family would know about it ...It has to be from way way back..Our (mutation) shows that its originated some 7500 years ago.. I was thinking maybe from the Hitto-Phoenicians who migrated after the fall of the Hurri-Urartu kingdom to Caucasus? But still the question is I didn't find in the Chechen DNA project anyone else with a T haplogroup..


your "rules" are thousands upon thousands of years younger than the T haplogroup , they do not count.............there was no rules or religion or even towns/villages ............there was hunters, farmers when T went into the north caucasus

like all other haplogroups than have the marker K-M9 .........they all mostly like began around south central asia

every T and L haplogroup person has to have this mutations *Haplogroup LT or L298/P326, also known as K1 (and previously as Haplogroup K2),* there are actually 30 SNPs for LT haplogroup

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## Suleyman

> your "rules" are thousands upon thousands of years younger than the T haplogroup , they do not count.............there was no rules or religion or even towns/villages ............there was hunters, farmers when T went into the north caucasus
> 
> like all other haplogroups than have the marker K-M9 .........they all mostly like began around south central asia
> 
> every T and L haplogroup person has to have this mutations *Haplogroup LT or L298/P326, also known as K1 (and previously as Haplogroup K2),* there are actually 30 SNPs for LT haplogroup


Sile, on yfull.com im listed with the haplogroup T- Y22559, with me there is an other guy with the same T-Y22559. Does this makes that this guy is a far 'family' member a descent from the same ancestor or could it just be a coincidence?

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## Sile

> Sile, on yfull.com im listed with the haplogroup T- Y22559, with me there is an other guy with the same T-Y22559. Does this makes that this guy is a far 'family' member a descent from the same ancestor or could it just be a coincidence?


what does it state for matches in your account in Yfull ...the SNP matches and the STR matches........there are also 3 tabs in each section

you should have something like this if you match

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## Alpenjager

Which is your Tribe?

Your closest know match is 7400 ybp. This is a lot to start any speculation. You should talk with the Moravian individual kit 129339 in the FTDNA T Project and try to convince him to upload to YFull. Also one of the Jewish cluster.

You can see here your branch: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

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## Suleyman

Sile, I will registrate on that site and have a better closer look.. thank you for the information  :Good Job:

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## Suleyman

Alpenjager,

My tribe is called " Nash'ho ", it is seen if not the oldest, as one of the oldest tribes in Chechnya.. It is even said that all the Chechens are originated from my tribe.. but being member of this old tribe and having haplogroup T is even stranger if 60-70 % of the Chechens have J1,J2.. And the Phylogenetic T-M184 tree I see the T-Y22559 and further some clusters ( Iberia, South Moravia, Syria, East Libia and Askhn. Jews), what does those clusters mean? Im asking maybe to many questions but it is of the interest in the human history.

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## Alpenjager

> Alpenjager,
> 
> My tribe is called " Nash'ho ", it is seen if not the oldest, as one of the oldest tribes in Chechnya.. It is even said that all the Chechens are originated from my tribe.. but being member of this old tribe and having haplogroup T is even stranger if 60-70 % of the Chechens have J1,J2.. And the Phylogenetic T-M184 tree I see the T-Y22559 and further some clusters ( Iberia, South Moravia, Syria, East Libia and Askhn. Jews), what does those clusters mean? Im asking maybe to many questions but it is of the interest in the human history.


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нашхой

We don't know this 60-70% of J1 and J2 to which tribes belong. This could be like with Somalis, when they started testing random Somalis in European countries, they found that 70-80% belong to E1b but when they started to sample region by region and tribe by tribe, they start to found large Clans and Regions to belong mostly to T1a. Until now that is know that the most indisputable descendants of the father of all Somalis (The Dir Clan) belongs virtually 100% to T1a.

The scientific community need to do most representative sampling in further studies.

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## Abdirahman

About the Samaale, even Hawyie claim they are descendant of him, according to the tradition Samaale came from Arabia and married a local woman, so it reasonable to assume he was T1a, in other hand Hawyie are mostly E1b which came from Pre- Nubia .


Back to the topic most tribes usually contain different haplogroups, which proves that most tribes are confederation, ibn khaldun father of Sociology said that "tribes are collation" so challenged the traditional view that was in spread in Arabia where all tribes used to claim descendant of Qahtan or Adnan or to lesser extant remnant of ancient Arabs. The same apply to your tribe, the haplgrouop are mostly before the formation modern lineages, so it is logical for a tribe to contain different haplogroups.

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## Suleyman

13 22 14 10 15-16 11 12 10 13 14 30 this my how do you call it SNR, SNP?

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## Sile

> 13 22 14 10 15-16 11 12 10 13 14 30 this my how do you call it SNR, SNP?


they are STR

mine are 

13 22 13 10 13-13 11 12 11 14 13 30 

but I tested 111 of them

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## Caucasus

Suleyman, I am originally from Azerbaijan. I also got T haplogroup result. I certainly think it originated from Zagros Mountains.

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## Salento

> Suleyman, I am originally from Azerbaijan. I also got T haplogroup result. I certainly think it originated from Zagros Mountains.


Do you know your subclade (subgroup)?
Mine is CTS8862, as of now.
Funny, just got un update, I’m actually Z19945. (Negative for CTS1848).

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## Alpenjager

> Suleyman, I am originally from Azerbaijan. I also got T haplogroup result. I certainly think it originated from Zagros Mountains.


Actually, there are several Neolithic and Mesolithic samples from around Zagros and there is not found any T sample yet. So it doesnt seems like this is the place of origin. Also the most basal branches are not found close to Zagros but to Europe, Caucasus and Himalayas. Then to Mediterranean Sea.So it seems like T inhabited some northern lands, perhaps around Black Sea and then some migrated to the south in multiple waves.

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## Caucasus

I have downloaded my raw data from 23andme.com with column heads- rsid, chromosome, position, genotype I have no clue about interpreting this data further. Can I extract my subclade from this data or do I need to do anything else to get it?

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## Alpenjager

> I have downloaded my raw data from 23andme.com with column heads- rsid, chromosome, position, genotype I have no clue about interpreting this data further. Can I extract my subclade from this data or do I need to do anything else to get it?


23andMe doesn't give you more than two or three SNPs of interest. So, you are able to know if L208 or L131 at most.

You should think to do further testing YElite https://www.fullgenomes.com/purchases/2/? or Y12+BigY in https://www.familytreedna.com/

Highly recomended these options.

Or you can do a less informative test: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.ph...afa86235a73be4

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## Suleyman

> do you know your subclade (subgroup)?
> Mine is cts8862, as of now.
> Funny, just got un update, i’m actually z19945. (negative for cts1848).


y-22559 ...

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## Suleyman

CTS11451 i think this is right

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## Hamed

Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.

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## Sile

> Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.


Thanks
My theory is that it began as part of the Dahae confedeation of people.....one group heading north in kazaks and other south along the caspian sea via modern gilman province through the armenian plateau and part of the mitanni/Urart group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages
.
And later a move through Laz and the elamites
.
with an ancient T1a3 found in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia
It would make sense that between Pamir and the caspian sea is its origin.
.
Btw , I am T1a2-Z19945

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## Hamed

Mr Sile,Very Interesting.Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
However, nothern Iranian where Aryans( haplo R-1a).Dahae people built the parthian empire.The great King Cyrus mentionned they where Aryans (haplo R)

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## Alpenjager

> Mr Sile,Very Interesting.Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
> However, nothern Iranian where Aryans( haplo R-1a).Dahae people built the parthian empire.The great King Cyrus mentionned they where Aryans (haplo R)


According to the last Ancient DNA data, there is no proof about something like Aryans = R1a. There are lots of Haplogroups in the root of the Indoeuropean populations (like L and J).

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## Alpenjager

> Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.


Well Hamed, are you participating in YFull? Do you know which is your branch downstream of Y3781?

Your teacher doesn't seems know so much about T-M184 haplogroup but anyway Im glad to find some interest. There is nothing about a mass murderer of T people more than suffered by other lineages. Probably the high movility nature of T lineages is the cause this lineage have not been strongly fixed in a specific geographical place.

There are several T branches unrelated in recent times between them inhabiting close regions.
Actually we don't know of any study that find T1a-M70 individuals in the Middle East in Prehistoric times not even in Anatolian nor Caucasus soil. This should mean something after all.

If do you want to make a strong theory, I recommend to you to take a look into my T-M184 phylogenetic tree work here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png


About Dravidians: Haplogroup T among them is understudied but anyway is mostly an off shot of a northern migration into South Asia and perhaps other minor migrations like seafearers. Most of Dravidian populations lack of T-M184 lineages.

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## Hamed

Thank you for your reply.
What is your opinion on the origin of haplo T in the caucasus and Iranian plateau?
From which region in the world did this haplogroup migrate to the middle-east?Why is it so widespread in low pourcentages comparing to other haplogroups?I will be grateful if you can share your knowledge.

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## Alpenjager

> Thank you for your reply.
> What is your opinion on the origin of haplo T in the caucasus and Iranian plateau?
> From which region in the world did this haplogroup migrate to the middle-east?Why is it so widespread in low pourcentages comparing to other haplogroups?I will be grateful if you can share your knowledge.


Haplogroup T in Caucasus and Iranian Plateau have diverse origins because there are several different branches. I recommend you first take a deep look into the link I provided you. You should find some answers and new questions.

Mostly from somewhere around the Black Sea where most probably are found the roots of some ancient T branches like T1a1a-L208.

I answered the third question in my last post, the high movility nature could be a major factor. This also is so graphic in the last link I provided you.

Are you participating in the Haplogroup T project ? https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
And you uploaded your results to YFull? https://www.yfull.com/tree/T/

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## Salento

I understand why Hamed thinks that something really unpleasant must have happened to Y T.
What caused the low percentages of T remain an unresolved Mystery, regardless of how widespread it is.

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## Alpenjager

> I understand why Hamed thinks that something really unpleasant must have happened to Y T.
> What caused the low percentages of T is a Mystery, regardless of how widespread it is. 
> Early isolation, genocide, disease, natural disaster (Atlantis lol), low sperm count??, Women didn’t find them attractive (I don’t think so !!!), famine, ..... all Speculations.


I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite. 

Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.

Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.

You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal and Noble Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.

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## Salento

> I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite. 
> 
> Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.


All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.

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## Alpenjager

> All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
> If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.


When you share ancestor there is no need of mere coincidence. Haplogroup T is found at the root of the Neolithic life-style. So is not strange this extremely high movility since very old times.

Two extremely early splitted branches like T1b and T1a are found among the earliest Neolithic populations of West Eurasia. Anyway, only T1a shows this high movility.

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## Salento

> I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite. 
> 
> Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.
> 
> Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.
> 
> You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.


I’m actually Negative for CTS6507 (red on FTDNA)

I’m Z19945 ( negative for CTS1848 ) same as Sile.

IMG_8724.JPG

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## Alpenjager

> I’m actually Negative for CTS6507 (red on FTDNA)
> 
> I’m Z19945 ( negative for CTS1848 ) same as Sile.


Yes, I know. I mean "you have in the tree". Excuse me the confusion.

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## Salento

> Yes, I know. I mean "you have in the tree". Excuse me the confusion.


By looking at the FTDNA tree any relation that CTS6507 people have with Z19945 is Remote at best.

IMG_8725.JPG

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## Salento

Wow those are a lot of Mutations.
It gets more complicated all the time. :)

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## Salento

> When you share ancestor there is no need of mere coincidence. Haplogroup T is found at the root of the Neolithic life-style. So is not strange this extremely high movility since very old times.
> 
> Two extremely early splitted branches like T1b and T1a are found among the earliest Neolithic populations of West Eurasia. Anyway, only T1a shows this high movility.


Thank you for the Clear Explanation. 
It all makes sense now. :) 

Also I think that before I misinterpreted “You have”, you probably meant to say “We have, or There is, Haplo.... ” as a general way to make a point.
(“You have Haplo... “ (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches...)
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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## Sile

> I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite. 
> Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.
> Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.
> You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal and Noble Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.


Zorastrian began in Turkmenistan
https://zoroastrians.net/2010/08/25/...-turkmenistan/
.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/vikt...117-30zd7.html
.
Any Zoroastrian in Persia or elsewhere are migrations.
.
Gonur Tepe is the actual area of Zoroastrian.......was there not a T1a found there from a recent paper?
.
https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zo...merv/gonur.htm

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## Sile

> All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
> If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.


It would mostly mean that T was a hunter group and not farmers or herders initially

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## Sile

> By looking at the FTDNA tree any relation that CTS6507 people have with Z19945 is Remote at best.
> 
> IMG_8725.JPG


impossible......we are part of the T1a2 branch and CTS6507 is part of the T1a1 branch ..........they are as different as R1b is to R1a

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## Suleyman

[QUOTE=Alpenjager;543872]Haplogroup T in Caucasus and Iranian Plateau have diverse origins because there are several different branches. I recommend you first take a deep look into the link I provided you. You should find some answers and new questions.

Mostly from somewhere around the Black Sea where most probably are found the roots of some ancient T branches like T1a1a-L208.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

I answered the third question in my last post, the high movility nature could be a major factor. This also is so graphic in the last link I provided you.

Are you participating in the Haplogroup T project ? https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
And you uploaded your results to YFull? 


In the https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults, I am listed as "unmatched'. Alpenjager, there is a guy from Czech republic he has many numbers who fit mine...

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## Suleyman

Some people can tell on the basis of the matched numbers how many years ago there was a commonly ancestor.. Is here someone who can have a look and guess how many years ago I had a commonly ancestor with the guy from Czech Republic, thank you.

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## Suleyman

> Well Hamed, are you participating in YFull? Do you know which is your branch downstream of Y3781?
> 
> Your teacher doesn't seems know so much about T-M184 haplogroup but anyway Im glad to find some interest. There is nothing about a mass murderer of T people more than suffered by other lineages. Probably the high movility nature of T lineages is the cause this lineage have not been strongly fixed in a specific geographical place.
> 
> There are several T branches unrelated in recent times between them inhabiting close regions.
> Actually we don't know of any study that find T1a-M70 individuals in the Middle East in Prehistoric times not even in Anatolian nor Caucasus soil. This should mean something after all.
> 
> If do you want to make a strong theory, I recommend to you to take a look into my T-M184 phylogenetic tree work here:
> 
> ...


I didnt know the 'tree' was youre work, very very nice done!

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## Hamed

Alpenjager,today i joined the T project.
I have a question for you since you asked me about my downstream of y3781.
There are 4 downstreams from that tree you sent me its link.I was tested negative for all of them: y3758 y3782 y9102 and y21017.
Hence on that tree,I correspond no further than y3781 which is 8500 ybp.
So what does that mean ? How can I test for further snps which are closer in time?
Btw if that tree is your work, I would like to congratulate and thank you for such an amazing work.

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## Alpenjager

Thanks to both of you. I will keep updating the tree periodically.

Hamed, to go downstream on the tree you should order YElite(best choice data-price): https://www.fullgenomes.com/purchases/2/? or BigY https://www.familytreedna.com/group-...gCart?pid=4383 / https://www.familytreedna.com/group-...-Haplogroup-K2


Which is your tribal and ethnic origin on your direct paternal line? I will see if I can add you to the tree.

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## Alpenjager

> Alpenjager,today i joined the T project.
> I have a question for you since you asked me about my downstream of y3781.
> There are 4 downstreams from that tree you sent me its link.I was tested negative for all of them: y3758 y3782 y9102 and y21017.
> Hence on that tree,I correspond no further than y3781 which is 8500 ybp.
> So what does that mean ? How can I test for further snps which are closer in time?
> Btw if that tree is your work, I would like to congratulate and thank you for such an amazing work.


You are negative for Y3824- that is equivalent to Y3858. But you have NO CALL for Y21017 and equivalent SNPs. So, you still dont know if you are positive or not for this last SNP. There are good chances that you belong to FGC65011.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp Your Y21017 appear as "Y21017*" not "-" nor "+".

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## Hamed

Thanks.
About my tribal or ethnic origin : I was born in Iran.My grandfather was born in Baku city of Azerbaijan.His father was from North Caucasus in the Daghestani region.

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## Caucasus

Hamed, I find your Elamite theory absolutely fascinating. My haplotype is T as well. My great-grandfathers were Kurds who migrated from Iran to South Caucasus in 16th century.

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## Sile

> Thanks.
> About my tribal or ethnic origin : I was born in Iran.My grandfather was born in Baku city of Azerbaijan.His father was from North Caucasus in the Daghestani region.


great
your line could even be from kazaks as many T people are found there .............6% of T ydna marker found in Altai area of Kazakhstan
.

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## Hamed

Thanks Caucasus for sharing.Thats fascinating.
How where you able to track your ancestors back to 16th century to Kurdistan as many records after 18th century in Iran are completly destroyed?
Also which part of south caucasus you are from?

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## Hamed

Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
What do you guys think?

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## Alpenjager

> Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
> In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
> This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
> If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
> Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
> What do you guys think?


Can you tell us the kit number of Al Husayni?

I don't think remotely possible that T is linked in any way to children of Israel as a whole. perhaps one of his branches who knows. There is one unique confirmed link between Jews of two different branches, you can find it downstream T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a2c-PF4074

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## Suleyman

> Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
> In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
> This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
> If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
> Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
> What do you guys think?


Wow, Hamed very interesting. Nice research work! I think to know the origin of haplogroup T, you must not only study the scientific part but also the (religious) part to know which folks were of haplogroup T in the past.

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## Hamed

The kit number M9153 .Please not that there many more.On the arabic sites,there is quite a bit of members belonging to Al Unzah tribe,Bakr tribe,Rabiah tribe; all belonging to Haplo T. These arab tribes are called Adnani tribes.All offshoots of a man called Adnan the 4th grandson of Ishmael.Arab tribes are great people to study since they lived in their tribal system until this day.They kept their genealogies and rarely mixed with others.

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## Sile

> Dear Alpenger, you sent a link about the names and countries of Haplo T which was very usefull.
> In arabic I found an important name.It was sharif Maher Rashwan Al-Jamazi Al-Husayni.
> This is a very prominant tribe in Egypt and Saoudi Arabia which have a direct paternal Genealogy all the way to the prophet Muhammad who also was a direct descendant of Ismael and Abraham.Their geneology is authenticated by arab genealogy scholars.
> If that is so,this gives us more fascinating information about haplo T.Ishmael must have had the same dna as his brother Isaac and the children of Israel.
> Could the tribe of Israel be haplo T? Would the reason why Haplo T beeing so scattered in low pourcentages be because the children of Israel where massacred and scattered around the world as predicted in the Bible?
> What do you guys think?


If you want to relate Haplogroups with biblical tribes..........then T is part of the Madai ( Medes )
http://shroud-physics.com/2017/09/y-chromosomal-levi/
haplogroup LT Japheth> Madai (Father of the Medes)
.
http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html
.
biblical studies state the Madai are the only Arians/Aryans

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## Salento

As “Entertainment” I read the latest few posts.
Reset + Reality Check.
I’m not an expert of genetics, but even I can tell when some of the assumptions posted are nothing more than Wishful Thinking driven by an Agenda. 
Nothing more than Bias. Science, Politics, and Religions all mixed up together.

An example is also in one of the links posted. 
The author First try to preserve his reputation, and then he goes on in to more exotic statements.

“ ... All these stories (together with the religious traditions behind them) seem, not merely false, but ridiculously false if our mathematics of genetic inheritance is Darwinian. But everything changes if we use the more sophisticated formulas of analytic number theory sketched above, and in the light of these formulas, the credibility of these stories can be restored .... “

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## Sile

> As “Entertainment” I read the latest few posts.
> Reset + Reality Check.
> I’m not an expert of genetics, but even I can tell when some of the assumptions posted are nothing more than Wishful Thinking driven by an Agenda. 
> Nothing more than Bias. Science, Politics, and Religions all mixed up together.
> 
> An example is also in one of the links posted. 
> The author First try to preserve his reputation, and then he goes on in to more exotic statements.
> 
> “ ... All these stories (together with the religious traditions behind them) seem, not merely false, but ridiculously false if our mathematics of genetic inheritance is Darwinian. But everything changes if we use the more sophisticated formulas of analytic number theory sketched above, and in the light of these formulas, the credibility of these stories can be restored .... “


I agree, *all* religious texts have a very high percentage of fabrication, lost men with dreams, we still see these people today.

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## Alpenjager

> The kit number M9153 .Please not that there many more.On the arabic sites,there is quite a bit of members belonging to Al Unzah tribe,Bakr tribe,Rabiah tribe; all belonging to Haplo T. These arab tribes are called Adnani tribes.All offshoots of a man called Adnan the 4th grandson of Ishmael.Arab tribes are great people to study since they lived in their tribal system until this day.They kept their genealogies and rarely mixed with others.


I found information about a Al Husayni clan from Palestina but I dont know if is the same as the Arabian one. Can you provide me with a link with information?

Al Rabiah tribe is added in the tree, you can find him downstream T1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a2b-Y16021 but belongs to a totally different branch. About Bakr tribe is not added because they have not tested further deep and belongs to a possible Viking branch.

I have not added any Unzah sample yet. If do you know any kit number, I will study it.

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## Caucasus

Hamed, I am originally from Azerbaijan Republic as well. It is interesting that your grandfather moved to Iran during Bolshevik revolution. 
Russian scholars have researched the historic settlements in Caucasus fairly well. In late 16th century, Shah Abbas settled 32 Azeri tribes, 24 Kurdish tribes in mountainous Garabagh region of Azerbaijan to create a buffer zone against Ottomans. They even provided the names of these tribes. According to Russian scholars, all these Shiite tribes were moved from Khorasan province but I think they were most likely moved from Azerbaijan and Kurdistan provinces. 
Furthermore, as part of Russian-Persian peace treaties- Gulustan and Turkmenchay (1813, 1826/28), Azeris, Kurds and Armenians moved to Garabagh as well. But during this phase, however, the majority of these settlers were Armenians who later turned out to be a big headache and ethnically cleansed upper Garabagh of Azeri-Kurdish population in 1990s. 
I looked at some of your posts and understood that your grandfathers are also from Azerbaijan Republic. Is that correct? If so, there is a good probability that they were also from Garabagh settling in Baku since it was an industrial city.

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## Hamed

Very Interesting.It certaintly explaines many things for me.
Theres another factor of haplogroup T in the Caucasus.
In the 7th century AD an arab general by the name of Abd-Rahman ibn Rabiah invaded the caucasus with many men of his tribe(Rabiah Tribe).He was sent by the Khalifa of his time.He conquered South-Caucasus and went up as far as Daghestan.
His descendants and tribes descendants stayed there and even ruled there.
There is also a big arab tribe who ruled Armenia (back then what was called Armenia was a huge part of the caucasus) called Banu Shayban.
Banu shayban and Banu Rabiah are an offshoot of Bani Bakr bin Wail.They are Adnanites(direct descendants of Adnaan....Adnaan is a grands0n of Ishmaeil son of Abraham.
If you go to arab sites for y dna research(you must know arabic) you will clearly see many people of Banu Rabiah and other offshoots of Shaybanis and even smaller tribes descendants of Bakr bin Wael are all haplogroup T. 
This might also point out some of the origins of haplogroup T in the caucasus.For me this theory and yours makes alot of sense. I and my brothers look like arab men from the desert.Alot of the men from the caucasus are of fair complexion.

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## Caucasus

Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands. Because of Caucasus's proximity to Iran, their strong historical ties thought such a long period of time, it comes as no surprise to see relative prevalence of T in Caucasus.
A few villages in Mil-Mughan area of Azerbaijan which may have been established by Arabs when they invaded Caucasus(if I am not mistaken there is a village called Arablar in Kurdemir district). But I have a strong hunch they would belong to J rather than T.

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## Alpenjager

> Very Interesting.It certaintly explaines many things for me.
> Theres another factor of haplogroup T in the Caucasus.
> In the 7th century AD an arab general by the name of Abd-Rahman ibn Rabiah invaded the caucasus with many men of his tribe(Rabiah Tribe).He was sent by the Khalifa of his time.He conquered South-Caucasus and went up as far as Daghestan.
> His descendants and tribes descendants stayed there and even ruled there.
> There is also a big arab tribe who ruled Armenia (back then what was called Armenia was a huge part of the caucasus) called Banu Shayban.
> Banu shayban and Banu Rabiah are an offshoot of Bani Bakr bin Wail.They are Adnanites(direct descendants of Adnaan....Adnaan is a grands0n of Ishmaeil son of Abraham.
> If you go to arab sites for y dna research(you must know arabic) you will clearly see many people of Banu Rabiah and other offshoots of Shaybanis and even smaller tribes descendants of Bakr bin Wael are all haplogroup T. 
> This might also point out some of the origins of haplogroup T in the caucasus.For me this theory and yours makes alot of sense. I and my brothers look like arab men from the desert.Alot of the men from the caucasus are of fair complexion.


There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.

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## Alpenjager

> Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands. Because of Caucasus's proximity to Iran, strong historical ties thought such a long period of time, it comes as no surprise to see relative prevalence of T in Caucasus.
> A few villages in Mil-Mughan area of Azerbaijan which may have been established by Arabs when they invaded Caucasus(if I am not mistaken there is a village called Arablar in Kurdemir district). But I have a strong hunch they would belong to J rather than T.


Actually, there is not found any basally splitted branch in Iran. So, This is rather unlikely.

Zoroastrians and Bakhtiaris belong to different T lineages and are very specific on the tree.

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## Sile

> Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands.


there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
2 in Germany and 
2 in Bulgaria.....
then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
.
all these are ancient sample
.
.
I have not seen a Elamite nor a Lurs that are ancient .............seen 15% of Kurds that have T .....like the zaza people who originated in Azeri lands and then there are 6% yazidi people
.
IMO I would say T split from haplogroup LT between the Caspian and Aral seas..........also due to T2-PH110 in bhutan which has same split date as T
.
Alpen IIRC states between the Black and Caspian seas
.
whatever the case , T originates north of the Zargos mountains..........you might find the truth before me

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## Caucasus

Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?

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## Alpenjager

> Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?


As pointed by Sile, the most likely origin of T should be somewhere between Wallachian/Danubian Plains in western Black Sea and Caspian Sea, at most pushing a bit further west (taking account L lineage) and further east (taking account Himalaya's T2 off shot) the possible extremes.

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## Caucasus

Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.

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## Sile

> Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.


the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........

the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to

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## Suleyman

> there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
> 2 in Germany and 
> 2 in Bulgaria.....
> then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
> a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
> a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
> .
> all these are ancient sample
> .
> ...


Sile, about the ancient sample, can you say how old a sample has to be ... to be ancient?

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## Alpenjager

> the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........
> 
> the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to


In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.

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## Hamed

> There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.


NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.

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## Sile

> In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.


Armenians state that they originate from a mix of 2 ancient peoples .....the Hurrian and the Nairi ...........the Nairi from what I gather come from modern Gilan province on the Caspian sea, I think this is azeri lands ........Sason/Sasun is in Kurdish East-Turkey IIRC

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## Alpenjager

> NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.


I will appreciate if you post Kit numbers when talking about Tribes found in DNA project. This will makes their identification easier.

What is clear here is that the Rabiah T samples and Bakr T samples are completly unrelated.

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## Caucasus

Alpenjager, can you kindly provide a little more info about CTS6507 in terms of its prevalence in different parts of the world or anything else you wanted to share?
Thanks

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## Caucasus

...........

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