# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  T1a1a*

## Andalusian Fusion

Great site!

T1a-M70 is said to have entered Africa via the Nile. How did it spread in the Horn? Where is T1a1a?

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## torzio

> Great site!
> 
> T1a-M70 is said to have entered Africa via the Nile. How did it spread in the Horn? Where is T1a1a?


There is a academia paper by Angela Smith, which states T1a1a-Pages0011 with R1b-V88 arrived in the levant ( from the north ) circa 9000BC and then moved into coastal Egypt ( lower nile )................T1a1 did not reach the horn of Africa until the iron-age

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## Andalusian Fusion

> There is a academia paper by Angela Smith, which states T1a1a-Pages0011 with R1b-V88 arrived in the levant ( from the north ) circa 9000BC and then moved into coastal Egypt ( lower nile )................T1a1 did not reach the horn of Africa until the iron-age


It took 8 millennia to reach the Horn? Thanks for the paper, torzio! Is there a link?? Looked around & did not see it.

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## torzio

> It took 8 millennia to reach the Horn? Thanks for the paper, torzio! Is there a link?? Looked around & did not see it.


https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/mig...istinct-y-dna/

of the T haplogroup in this paper 90% had blue eyes and origins are on the black sea eastern side..............further info is that the remainder/living departed along the southern anatolian 

I will look for other paper..............I already attached it in the past, but lost link when I reinstalled windows 10 
It is to do with T1a1-Pages0021

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## Salento

I don't remember where, but I read that y T entered the Horn of Africa twice.

From West-Asians during the Neolithic, and in the last millennium until about 300 years ago with the Arab slave traders.

I think the clades were also different.

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## Andalusian Fusion

Official paper?

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## Andalusian Fusion

> of the T haplogroup in this paper 90% had blue eyes and origins are on the black sea eastern side..............further info is that the remainder/living departed along the southern anatolian 
> 
> I will look for other paper..............I already attached it in the past, but lost link when I reinstalled windows 10 
> It is to do with T1a1-Pages0021


Do you remember the subject header? I'll look for it.

T came off the Pamir before heading off in three basic directions. 

The largest is the T1a (so far). Those would be the NE African ones. The Ts that went into Melanesia would explain why so many have dark skin, but blue eyes & sometimes blond hair. Whoever they may have interbred with would have modified that original template.

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## Salento

> Official paper?


I’m not posting it, search for: arab slave traders.

but I’ll post this:

_Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa
_
Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few thousand years. 
However, mitochondrial and Y chromosome data are suggestive of earlier episodes of admixture ...

... T-M70 sub-haplogroup was present in northeast Africa by at least 14 ka, possibly arriving in the Horn of Africa as early as 5 ka ....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art.../#!po=0.189394

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## torzio

> Do you remember the subject header? I'll look for it.
> 
> T came off the Pamir before heading off in three basic directions. 
> 
> The largest is the T1a (so far). Those would be the NE African ones. The Ts that went into Melanesia would explain why so many have dark skin, but blue eyes & sometimes blond hair. Whoever they may have interbred with would have modified that original template.


its in earlier posts in eupedia

It was an academia paper based on cruciani's and others works..........https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2009231

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## Andalusian Fusion

> its in earlier posts in eupedia
> 
> It was an academia paper based on cruciani's and others works..........


Just discovered this site, actually. Thanks for this R paper! The greening of the Sahara is part of the puzzle we seem to be missing. T looks widespread, but may be missing all the people that most likely lived in this area before desertification. It might actually stretch from the North Africa/Sahel region to the Himalayas. 

Ancient humans were working with narrow corridors during certain climate ages. Given that T is 40-47K YBP... and that it is downstream from LT and also F... perhaps their movements happened many times over; going into whatever land had the most hospitable climate for human habitation.

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## torzio

> Just discovered this site, actually. Thanks for this R paper! The greening of the Sahara is part of the puzzle we seem to be missing. T looks widespread, but may be missing all the people that most likely lived in this area before desertification. It might actually stretch from the North Africa/Sahel region to the Himalayas. 
> 
> Ancient humans were working with narrow corridors during certain climate ages. Given that T is 40-47K YBP... and that it is downstream from LT and also F... perhaps their movements happened many times over; going into whatever land had the most hospitable climate for human habitation.


With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.

There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years

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## Andalusian Fusion

> With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.
> 
> There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years


That "Game of Thrones" looking person from Bulgaria comes to mind. Was he not basal T*? He was called the first (known) "king" because his genetic profile puts him at the dawn of the Neolithic.

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## torzio

> That "Game of Thrones" looking person from Bulgaria comes to mind. Was he not basal T*? He was called the first (known) "king" because his genetic profile puts him at the dawn of the Neolithic.


Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC

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## Andalusian Fusion

> With the many hap. P and proto P found in siberia recently it would seem that K2 is close to east asian lands and we T who are their cousins as in hap K1 would be central asian as recent scholars have noted.
> 
> There is a lot of T found in kazaks by russian scholars in the last few years


y-P formed in Siberia? Last I remember, some said it mutated in the northern Philippine Islands.

Basal T in Kazaks? Or, downstream?

I am interested MOST, right now, in the mountainous DNA from the Himalayas (and that T-M184 paper re: Bhutan), Hindu Kush, Tian Shan, Kunlun, Karakoram, Suleman & Hindu Raj. This "Central Asian" mountain range is where basal T is said to have begun; radiating (pretty much) to the southeast and west.

Know any??

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## Andalusian Fusion

> Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
> There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC


In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8. 

I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).

If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.

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## torzio

> In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8. 
> 
> I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).
> 
> If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.


T entered africa , firstly in coastal egypt circa 9000BC .......................IIRC it did not reach the horn of Africa until the late bronze-age IIRC.............there is an old DNA study on this

Lemba jews reached yemen circa 2500BC from northern Levant, they came without women, crossed into africa and migrated to south africa where they married southern african women

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## Andalusian Fusion

> T entered africa , firstly in coastal egypt circa 9000BC .......................IIRC it did not reach the horn of Africa until the late bronze-age IIRC.............there is an old DNA study on this
> 
> Lemba jews reached yemen circa 2500BC from northern Levant, they came without women, crossed into africa and migrated to south africa where they married southern african women


AI put that M70 at 13,000 BCE & had at least one pit stop (for L-208) in the Greek island of Crete (by 10,000 BCE) & then back to the North African mainland. 

The Lemba story was, indeed, interesting. Anything beyond 1,500 BCE is paganism, so they must have progressed (with their cult) at some point after that.

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## Andalusian Fusion

3ebd2b8800cc80c8c69a8e2e75db8e34.jpg
_"Semitic"_ comes after_ "Cushitic"_. There are Ashkenazi Jews downstream from HOA Ts. 






> In all of Bulgaria, the % only goes as high as 5.8. 
> 
> I see a pattern: T seems to be low volume, but it goes along with another major haplogroup... like E1b1b in East Africa (for example)... and then ends up as the ruling class. This dawned on me when I was looking at info re: the Bulgarian king. T is in the ruling classes of Saudi Arabia & (separately) in East Africa... the "Cushites", who speak Cushitic (Cushites came WAY BEFORE Semitic Arabs).
> 
> If T got to East Africa circa 10 millennia ago, then it arrived before the dawn of known high African civilisation & was probably the group who ushered it in. E1b1b (quite possibly) became the native class with its first rulers coming from the T1a people.

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## Andalusian Fusion

> Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
> There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC


If T-L162 arrived in Crete from Egypt circa 10,100 BCE, is the Malek specimen one of the northern Ts (given its proximity to the Grecian islands)? L162 is one mutation downstream from M70 (Sinai, Egypt).

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## torzio

> AI put that M70 at 13,000 BCE & had at least one pit stop (for L-208) in the Greek island of Crete (by 10,000 BCE) & then back to the North African mainland. 
> 
> The Lemba story was, indeed, interesting. Anything beyond 1,500 BCE is paganism, so they must have progressed (with their cult) at some point after that.


Did not judesism begin 4000bc or am i wrong
Maybe it was 4000 years ago

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## Andalusian Fusion

> Yes from malek bulgaria.. same time period as the 3 x T samples in karldorf germany
> There are also another 2 x T samples from malek bulgaria IIRC


*ID*
*Y-DNA*
*Population*
*Language*
*Culture*
*Date(ybp)*
*Location*
*Members/SS*
*Percentage*
*mtDNA*
*Autosomal SNPs*
*Ancestral Components*
*Sample*
*Source*
*Notes*

I0795 - KAR6a - Feature 170
T1a-M70
Early European Neolithic
Paleo-European
Linearbandkeramik
7200
Karsdorf
1/1
100%
H1*
47804
Western European Hunter-Gatherer and Basal Eurasian
Tooth
[187]
Goseck circle



Perhaps... he went *NORTH* into Europe from the Sinai at a later date? After* T1a-M70 (13,800 B.C.E.)*, my *L-208 lineage goes to Crete in 10,100 B.C.E.*, only to return to the *North African coast (Egypt) by around 6,700 B.C.E.*



D9ULgaQWwAAKTar.jpg

D9ULg1yXYAAWKbg.jpg




Their arrival circa 6,700 B.C.E. places them into a Cushitic-speaking world. Semitic languages would not diverge from Cushitic until around 3,700 years later; all of these, rooted in hieroglyphics _(Kmt)_ & then the Phoenicians who gave us the alphabet by the 2nd Millennium.

_"Northern Afro-Asiatic"_ language would not exist until at least 1,200 years after their return to North Africa from Crete & they align more or less with the emergence of Cushitic in the Afro-Asiatic heartland _(in the SOUTH)_. If they spoke a Cushitic-type language, they would have left this mark upon Egypt as they made their way up the Nile to the HOA, ultimately leaving their cultural imprint there as they pushed the Khoisan further south.

3ebd2b8800cc80c8c69a8e2e75db8e34.jpg

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## Andalusian Fusion

> Did not judesism begin 4000bc or am i wrong
> Maybe it was 4000 years ago


_"Judaism"_ would have begun circa 1,900 B.C.E. with_ "Abraham"._ As a NATION of 600,000 men, the Israelites _(not necessarily 'Jews' yet)_ would have had their origins when _"Jacob"_ & his issue _(12 children & 70 grandkids)_ spent over 2 centuries in Egypt as enslaved *ISRAELITES*. 

As a _"religion"_, most of the _"10 Commandments"_- which come from Spell 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead- were presented as a Mosaic revelation at Mount Sinai_ (circa 1,500 B.C.E.)_. They wandered the Sinai desert & studied the Torah afterwards. The first 3:_"I am the Lord, thy God."_ / _"Thou shall have n__o other Gods before me."_ / _"Thou shall not worship any_ _graven images or idols"_ are the only ones which go AGAINST Egyptian religiosity.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead, as a whole, began to be circulated on papyrus around 1,550 B.C.E. 1 plus 1 is 2 here. In those 50 or so years, it was not long before said Spell 125 from the Egyptian Book of the Dead would begin to be used as a foundation to describe the 210 years the Israelites spent in Egypt. _"Judaism"_ used the Spell 125 framework as its morality code; taken from a papyrus which began as inscriptions on tomb walls in 2,345 B.C.E. _(as King Unas' "Pyramid Texts")_. 

If you add the Egyptian _"beginnings"_, then... yes... it would be that far back. As far as many of these clades go _(from T-L208 & upstream)_, we are talking even beyond that. In many of these places... the T clades appear to be AHEAD of major civs: predates Minoan Civ by several thousand years _(T-L162)_... Pre-Dynastic Kmt_ (T-L208)_... Axum... Kush... etc. Ts were driving forces. They were doing what the _"Game of Thrones"_ guy in Bulgaria was doing: running some form of colony _(farmers and/or otherwise)_.

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## torzio

> *ID*
> *Y-DNA*
> *Population*
> *Language*
> *Culture*
> *Date(ybp)*
> *Location*
> *Members/SS*
> *Percentage*
> ...


What about I0797
T-M70, mtdna H46b
7125 ybp.....karsdorf.....from Unstruttal
And the 3rd sample is KARS537 from karsdorf similar period......T1a1-L162

Your looking at that new plotting site by the Russian
He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one

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## Andalusian Fusion

> What about I0797
> T-M70, mtdna H46b
> 7125 ybp.....karsdorf.....from Unstruttal
> And the 3rd sample is KARS537 from karsdorf similar period......T1a1-L162
> 
> Your looking at that new plotting site by the Russian
> He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one



Those two images are of mine _(L-208)_. When I put in the sample from Germany. It comes back as Greece.

T_Y63197.jpg



Both are the same here_ (Y63197)_.

Individual remains
*I0795 KAR6*
*I0797 KAR16a*

ID
I0795 KAR6 Feature 170 Musm.no. 2006:14423a
I0797 KAR16a Feature 611 Musm.no. 2004:26374a

Y DNA
*T1a1a2-Y63197*
*T1a1a2-Y63197*

Population
Early EN
Early EN

Language
Paleo-European
Paleo-European

Culture
LBK
LBK

Date (YBP)
7076 ± 90
7087 ± 725

House / Location
S / Karsdorf
H / Karsdorf

Members / Sample Size
1/2
1/2

Percentage
50%
50%

mtDNA
H1* or H1au1b
H46b

Isotope Sr
Native to Unstruttal
Native to Unstruttal

Eye color
Likely gray or blue eyes
Likely gray or blue eyes

Hair color
Likely non-dark hair
Likely non-red hair

Skin pigmentation

Rs1042602 (C;C)

ABO Blood Group
Likely O or B
Rs8176719 (T;T)

Diet (d13C%0 / d15N%0)
-20.0 / 9.0 (higher Animal Protein)
-20.2 / 9.1 (higher Animal Protein)

FADS activity
rs174554 (A;A)
rs174574 (A;A)

Lactase Persistence

Likely lactose-intolerant

Oase-1 Shared DNA
34.06%
18.06%

Ostuni1 Shared DNA
12.49%
2.43%

Neanderthal Vi33.26 Shared DNA
3.81%
1.08%

Neanderthal Vi33.25 Shared DNA
2.13%
1.79%

Neanderthal Vi33.16 Shared DNA
1.71%
0%

Ancestral Component (AC)
Neolithic Anatolia/Southeast Europe: 70.56%, Caucasus Hunter / Early European Farmer: 19.86%, Scandinavian / West European Hunter: 9.34%, Paleolithic Levant (Natufians): 0.24%
Neolithic Anatolia/Southeast Europe: 56.23%, Paleolithic Levant (Natufians): 16.56%, Caucasus Hunter / Early European Farmer: 14.19%, Scandinavian / West European Hunter: 9.64%, Neolithic Iran: 2.54%

puntDNAL K12 Ancient
59% Anatolia Neolithic Farmer + 24% Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer+ 10% European Hunter-Gatherer + 7% Near Eastern
60% Anatolia Neolithic Farmer + 27% European Hunter-Gatherer + 9% Near Eastern + 2% Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer + 2% Sub-Saharan

Dodecad [dv3]
69.1% Mediterranean + 21% West European + 10% Southwest Asian
64.2% Mediterranean + 17.4% West European + 10.5% Southwest Asian+ 4.2% West Asian + 3.7% Northwest African

Eurogenes [K=36]
56.9% Italian + 31.9% West Mediterranean + 6.3% Iberian + 2.1% Basque + 1.3% North African + 0.9 East Balkan + 0.3% East Mediterranean + 0.3% Arabian
37.1% Italian + 21% West Mediterranean + 16.9% Iberian + 11.8 East Balkan + 7.7% Armenian + 5.5% East Mediterranean + 0.05% North African

Dodecad [Globe13]
67.4% Mediterranean + 16.5% Southwest Asian + 16% North European
61% Mediterranean + 19.7% Southwest Asian + 19.2% North European

Genetic Distance
98.6cM in chr 8
98.6cM in chr 8

Parental Consanguinity
MRCA = 1.1 generations
MRCA = 1.1 generations

Age at Death
45-60
24-26

Death Position
Flexed Left
Stretched Dorsal

SNPs
107.480
95.833

Read Pairs
5.279.657
7.128.606

Sample
Tooth / Rib
Tooth / Rib

Source
[1][2][3]
[1][2][3]

Notes
Goseck circle
Goseck circle





As for the mtDNAs of each:


Frequencies of haplogroup H1 in the world (Ottoni et al. 2010)

Region or Population
H1%
No. of subjects

Libyan Tuareg
61
129

Basques (Spain)
27.8
108

Portugal
25.5
499

Andalusia
24.3
103

Pasiegos (Cantabria)
23.5
51

Tuareg (West Sahel)
23.3
90

Berbers (Morocco)
20.2
217

Spain (miscellaneous)
18.9
132

Finland
18
78

Sardinia
17.9
106

Galicia
17.7
266

Basques (France)
17.5
40

Slovak (East)
16.8
137

Estonia
16.7
114

Western Sahara
14.8
128

Béarnaise
14.8
27

Slovak (West)
14.2
70

Catalonia
13.9
101

Volga-Ural Finnic speakers
13.6
125

Russia
13.5
312

Berbers (Tunisia)
13.4
276

France
12.3
106

Morocco
12.2
180

Italy (north)
11.5
322

Hungary
11.3
303

Czech Republic
10.8
102

Tunisia
10.6
269

Austria
10.6
2487

Sicily
10
90

Ukraine
9.9
191

Mozabite
9.8
80

Romania
9.4
360

Poland
9.3
86

Caucasus (north)
8.8
68

Netherlands
8.8
34

Italy (south)
8.7
206

Croatia
8.3
84

Slovaks
7.6
119

Macedonia
7.1
252

Mauritania
6.9
102

Italy (center)
6.3
208

Greece (mainland)
6.3
79

Germany
6
100

Balkans
5.4
111

Northwestern Caucasus
4.7
234

Karachay-Balkars
4.4
203

Lebanese
4.2
167

Druze
3.4
58

Turks
3.3
360

Albania
2.9
105

Daghestan
2.5
269

Ossetians
2.4
296

Caucasus (south)
2.3
132

Armenians
2.3
175

Iraq
1.9
206

Yakuts
1.7
58

Lithuania
1.7
180

Jordanians
1.7
173

Greece (Aegean islands)
1.6
247

Siwas (Egypt)
1.1
184

Georgians
1
193

Arabian Peninsula (incl. Yemen, Oman)
0.8
493

Central Asia
0.7
445

Dubai (United Arab Emirates)
0.4
249

Senegal
0
100

Fulani (Chad–Cameroon)
0
186

Cameroon
0
142

Chad
0
77

Buduma (Niger)
0
30

Nigeria
0
69

Ethiopia
0
82

Amhara (Ethiopia)
0
90

Oromo (Ethiopia)
0
117

Sierra Leone
0
155

Guineans (Guiné Bissau)
0
372

Mali
0
83

Kikuyu (Kenya)
0
24

Benin
0
192

Pakistan
0
100

Saami
0
57

Arabian Peninsula
0
94

Syrians
0
159

*Africa*



*Asia*



*Caucasus*



*Europe*



*Middle East*







As for the 2nd one:

*H4, H7 and H13*


These *H4*, H7 and H13 sub-haplogroups are present in both Europe and West Asia; the H13 subclade is also found in the Caucasus. They are quite rare. 

*H4* is often found in the Iberian peninsula, the Maghreb, Finland, Britain and Ireland.
*H4* and H13, along with H2 account for 42% of the hg H lineages in Egypt.



He could have started further south & then went up... ending up in Germany. Given the equidistance of the Hs & the path his genes took... could it be his wife was Egyptian?? The high probability of _"Libyan"_ is also there. This could have been a major route up into Europe & may have had people moving more frequently through it _(wild guess here)_.

This is the first time I have looked over this information re: Karsdorf specimens. Feedback as I continue researching would be greatly appreciated at this time.

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## Andalusian Fusion

> He had my snp originally in north Switzerland.....it is now near Bordeaux France........he has still not finished his plotting.......try the other one


lol... yeah... had that _"must be a merman"_ kind of feeling when I ended up way offshore Egypt.  :Laughing:

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## Salento

@Torzio It seems that we were in Rome 1000 years before Rome even existed, then some went North.

I guess this is the Map/Results you mentioned:








https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

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