# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

## archaiocapilos

Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
I : 21.6
R1a : 18.2 
R1b : 13.2
E1b : 20.6
G2 : 4.7
J2 : 14.9
J1 : 3.4
LT : 2.7
* : 0.7  

Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6 
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6 

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples) 
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5 

Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
I : 11.4
R1a : 7.6
R1b : 22.8
E1b : 20.3
G2 : 8.2
J2 : 19.6
J1 : 5.1
LT : 3.2
* : 1.9

Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
I : 13.0
R1a : 8.8
R1b : 17.1
E1b : 8.8
G2 : 10.9
J2 : 30.6
J1 : 8.3
LT : 2.6
*: -

All Greeks (1038 samples)
I : 15.1 
R1a : 12.0
R1b : 16.9
E1b : 21.0
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 20.1
J1 : 4.3
LT : 3.2
*: 1.1

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## Shetop

Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?

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## archaiocapilos

> Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?


 Sure
1.The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A 
Y Chromosome Perspective (Semino et.al) 2000
2.Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns (Bosch et.al) 2005
3.Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe (Battaglia et.al) 2008
4.Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan (Firasat et.al) 2007
5.Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects (Di Giaccomo et.al) 2003
6.The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et.al) 2011
7. Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (King et.al) 2008

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## sparkey

An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.

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## iapetoc

can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
Area Aetolo-acarnania.

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## archaiocapilos

> An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.


 Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized

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## archaiocapilos

> can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
> Area Aetolo-acarnania.


 I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2

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## iapetoc

> I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2


quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,

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## sparkey

> Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized


The concentration of Haplogroup I in Crete is a decent amount higher than Armenia, do you suspect a founder effect? I had assumed that the migration had happened a bit earlier and the other way around or from a common source to the northwest, since the center of diversity of I2* as a whole is around Germany (and all extant I2* is more closely related to other I2* than it is to I2a or I2b). Although that still wouldn't put the oldest I2*-B in Crete older than 3000 years or so at most, probably less.

I2a-Din in Greece must be similarly young. I'm guessing that if any Haplogroup I is as old as the G2/J2?/E1b? there that came during the Neolithic, it's what little trace I2a1a is there. That makes Greece very non-Paleolithic on its Y-lines, with a lot of Neolithic and Bronze Age (and Iron Age? and Modern?) input. I don't see a lot of interesting geographic patterns other than variations on that theme.

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## Maciamo

Archaiocapilos,

Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.

I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.

Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?

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## archaiocapilos

> quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,


That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples): 
I1 : 3.7 
I2a1b-Din : 9.1
I2*-B : 1.4
I2a2 : 1.6

Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
J2a : 12.2
J2b : 5.7

Haplogroup E1b1b is (440 samples)
E1b1b1a2 -V13 : 16.4 
E1b1b1a*-M78 : 2.3
E1b1b1b -M81 : 0.5
E1b1b1c-M123 : 2.0

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## archaiocapilos

It is primarly because of Thessaly/Sesclo and Argolis/Nemea that E1b1b rises to 27% in Maciamo's tables but they specifically sampled people who live in villages next to neolithic sites in that study so it's natural for them to score as high as 40% while a 21-22% of E1b1b is more likely for Greeks as a whole. Only in Peloponnese E1b1b seems to be high in both cities and country/villages (Patra 44%, Argolis 35.1%), in Larissa the capital city scores 14% while Sesclo scores 40.4%.
In Athens where people settled from all around Greece E1b1b is 21.7%, in Macedonia is 21.8% , in Thrace it is 19.5%, in Ionia it is 19.1%, in Aegean it is 21.7%...

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## archaiocapilos

> Archaiocapilos,
> 
> Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.
> 
> I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.
> 
> Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?


In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece
In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57 
In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.
In
In

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## iapetoc

> That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples): 
> I1 : 3.7 
> I2a1b-Din : 9.1
> I2*-B : 1.4
> I2a2 : 1.6
> 
> Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
> J2a : 12.2
> J2b : 5.7
> ...



Finally and interesting, 

I2a2<I1 !!!!!! + I2*-B !!!!!!

So myth of Cretan dancers is true, 
cretans moved to Aetolia-acarnania before the myceneans,


my next is to find the connection south Italy R1a with the Greek Makedonia R1a,
Greek R1a is connected with Norwegian R1a and Caucasus due to R1a1* (SRY1532.2)

if they are connected then probably the R1a=Slavic is myth, but we have 2 R1a populations of different times, 
1 western and 1 eastern which have different times of arrival and different movement,

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## archaiocapilos

King et.al included an additional 89 samples of GREEKS from Asia Minor Maciamo so I included them too. They actually live in Greece now if you diin't understand it...they were not Turks but they descend from Smyrna and Fokaia.

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## archaiocapilos

Actually Smyrnians, Fokaians and Chians (from ancient Ionian regions) look pretty close in their Y-DNA (with the exception of I-M170 in Chios)
Smyrna / Fokaia / Chios
R1b1b2 : 27.6 / 22.6 / 26.2
R1a1a : 5.2 / 6.5 / 9.5
I : 12.1 / 16.2 / 2.4
J2a : 15.5 / 9.7 / 11.9
J2b : 6.9 / 3.2 / 4.8
J1 : 5.2 / 9.8 / 2.4
E1b1b : 17.2 / 22.6 / 23.8

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## Maciamo

> King et.al included an additional 89 samples of GREEKS from Asia Minor Maciamo so I included them too. They actually live in Greece now if you diin't understand it...they were not Turks but they descend from Smyrna and Fokaia.


The language they speak or spoke is irrelevant. Y-DNA studies normally look at the place where one's most distant known patrilineal ancestor lived. If one's family tree goes back 300 years and the most distant patrilineal ancestor lived in a different country at the time, it is what should be taken into account. In other words, Greeks who used to live in Anatolia should only be used for the data about Turkey. The point of Y-DNA studies is to estimate the ethnic admixtures in a country or region. If you intentionally remove an ethnic group that has lived in that region for thousands of years, the results will be skewed.

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## zanipolo

the cretan numbers are distorted due to 

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201769a.html


http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...w.dml/13519532


http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:17264870

They do not resemble other Greek dna once you progress further into them

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## Maciamo

> In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece


That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?




> In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57 
> In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
> In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
> In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
> Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.


All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greece, while I classified those results under Turkey.

But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.

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## Maciamo

> the cretan numbers are distorted due to 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201769a.html
> 
> 
> http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf
> 
> http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...w.dml/13519532
> 
> ...


That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table.

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## iapetoc

> the cretan numbers are distorted due to 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201769a.html
> 
> 
> http://www.ata.org.tn/fichier_PDF/Original1.pdf
> 
> http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...w.dml/13519532
> 
> ...



Well i read all exept 2 (i could not open PDF)

what you want to say? that R1b moved from Crete to North east Italy?
or enetocracy? and what about Roman times and Inner greek R1b? 

all can explained easily, especially J,

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## zanipolo

> That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table.


ok

BTW, why do you not split north italy into north west and north east , north west being franco bias and north east germanic bias.

also what about others natios as well IF there is a degree of historical differentual data on people. I would like to see the difference between the catalan and castilian people in Spain as a must

also, if you noticed, the last link has lots of information ...........just hover over black text , it will open the information.

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## archaiocapilos

> That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?


 You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...





> All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.
> 
> But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.


 Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

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## zanipolo

> Well i read all exept 2 (i could not open PDF)
> 
> what you want to say? that R1b moved from Crete to North east Italy?
> or enetocracy? and what about Roman times and Inner greek R1b? 
> 
> all can explained easily, especially J,


no , I wanted to say that R1b and J2 in crete are not "greek " but NE itlay, meaning , by just saying R!b everyone thinks its identical to R1b on the greek mainland , same with J2

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## archaiocapilos

> That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?


 You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...





> All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.
> 
> But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.


 Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Can you direct us to documented historical population replacements? Other than the population exchange between Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey and the Armenian holocaust.


Well those are population replacements...it is not possible to completely replace the population in a region as huge as turkey. Prior to ottoman occupation the region was highly contested by various civilizations and tribes such as hittite, assyrians, greco-persian wars

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## bigsnake49

> Well those are population replacements...it is not possible to completely replace the population in a region as huge as turkey. Prior to ottoman occupation the region was highly contested by various civilizations and tribes such as hittite, assyrians, graeco-persian wars


Yeah but there were only 30,000 Macedonians that went into Anatolia and then Mesopotamia and Egypt and Persia, Afganistan and Pakistan and even India. The genetic impact of those 30,000 soldiers would be minuscule.

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## Kari

> quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,


Agrinio: 
R1b:19% 
R1a:5% 
I:24% 
E1b1b:9,5% 
J2:24% 
J1:4,5% 
G:4,5% 
Other:9,5% 
n=21

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## Juan.delajara

> Agrinio: 
> R1b:19% 
> R1a:5% 
> I:24% 
> E1b1b:9,5% 
> J2:24% 
> J1:4,5% 
> G:4,5% 
> Other:9,5% 
> n=21


Hi Kari, do you have any subclades for J2?, many thanks in advance

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## Kari

> Hi Kari, do you have any subclades for J2?, many thanks in advance


No i have not  :Sad:

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## Kari

> Hi Kari, do you have any subclades for J2?, many thanks in advance


are you talking about J2 on inhabitants of Agrinio?

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## Kari

How can i delete a message?

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## Juan.delajara

> are you talking about J2 on inhabitants of Agrinio?


J2, Many Thanks.

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