# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA

## DejaVu

Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

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## iapetoc

I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria 
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic

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## how yes no 2

> I believe that is obvius
> 
> Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria 
> so albania has J2
> 
> aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13
> 
> the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
> (watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)


I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....






this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...

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## DejaVu

*Albania
*I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

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## iapetoc

you still answer the 'are and not the 'were'

find the 'were'

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## how yes no 2

real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant.... 

arguments for E-V13:
1) high variation in Dalmatia.... 
2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

arguments for I2a2: 
1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2, 
2) low frequency of E-V13, 
3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

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## DejaVu

*Question:*
Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?

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## how yes no 2

> *Question:*
> Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?


now they are obviously, but originally I think they were not ...
genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

Ghegs could be related to Dardanians
Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.... this scenario would explain considerable J2b, I2a2 and R1a part.... which is almost completely lacking in Ghegs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

alternativelly, Tosks may be related to Illyrians, but they are a bit too south for that.... and many toponyms there are Slavic in origin....

third variant is idea about Gyges as eponym forefather of Ghegs, and that Tosks origin from Albanized Lydians while Gheghs are pure Albanians....

anyway, it is hard for me to guess what is right there...
perhaps someone with better knowledge of Greek historical sources could figure this out better....

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## how yes no 2

copied from topic about Macedonians...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...=26187&page=20




> Origin of Albanians is twofold:
> Quote:
> Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
> Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13
> 
> 
> These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.
> 
> Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.
> ...


Epirus was whole central and south Albania




whole point is that Albanisation of Epirotes happened with Byzantium becoming weak...in 14th century...Arbanians spread to Epirus from mountains
as Byzantium was weak... look at years... they coincide with spread of Serbian state towards south...



Tosks have significant I2a2 and J2, but Arbereshe who origin from Albanians who settled Italy upon arrival of Ottomans do not have much of those haplogroups... which indicates that in 15th century assimilation is still not complete and I2a2 and J2 people in central and south Albania are not counting themselves as Albanians...




> *Haplogroup I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster*[/B] (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
> mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).
> This is an interesting finding in the light of recent evidence for selection in Y-haplogroup I.
> 
> The situation with *J2* is also quite interesting as this is rarer in *Arbereshe (3%)* than *Albanians (17%)*:
> The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07...eshe-from.html

this is clear genetic proof that I2a2 and J2b people among Tosks are albanized Epirotes




> So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.


I do not believe this... please quote source...

if it is correct, than it means that Illyrians are probably not related to Albanians, but are I2a2 or J2b people...
which leaves Dardanians as key and only cultural ancestor of Arbanians (now called Albanians)

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## how yes no 2

> R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came, 
> 
> even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic. note how perfectly R1a in Italy follows curves of shape of Etruscan area of influence....this is because it came into non-R1a area...
> 
> We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.


lol, R1a Mongolian....

R1a is in Balkan for 11500 years already... (Klyosov proved that) so they might have been Pelasgues, while arrival of E-V13 might be about Illyrians and later Dardanians... 
Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...

btw. tribal name of Tosks may be related to tribal name of Etruscans/Tuscans...

Etruscans are dominantly R1a people who departed from Lydia and settled in Italy after sailing there with ships, but it is also possible that part of them settled in Albania...





note the wholes in J2 and R1a in Lydia which is place from which Etruscans departed... 

that also explains R1a and J2 in south Albania
I2a2 was probably brought by Slavic people and some of J2 is due to Greeks...

Tosks would on map of Illyrian tribes perhaps be Uscana as e.g. what was Etruria is now Tuscany...



Uscana is in area next to west FYRM, which explains large R1a in Albanians of FYRM who never mixed with Slavic settlers....

R1a and J2 is what connects Uscana (Tosk?) Illyrians with ancient Macedonians...

btw. just don't interpret this as Etruscan = Albanian... things are more complicated... tribal names are carried over to larger tribal groups... all nations are mixed in origin...

Tribal name of Etruscans (they call themselves Rasena) is also identical to tribal name of also Thracians /Russians/Rascians (Rascians is medieval Serb state).... origin of tribal name is R1a...
language of Etruscans was not indo-european... there are suggestion it was alike to Hungarian, and I believe this may be truth as proto-Magyars are clearly non-Indoeuropean R1a people...

Etruscans are as you can see shared link between Serbs and Albanians...but that is not surprising as south Slavs, soon after clustering with Romanians, central Ukraine and east and west Hungary, do cluster with Albanians as you can see in tables in full version of:

Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe, Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.

More you go in past more shared history different people of today have...

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## Neander

> Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...


Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea, 

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.

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## Neander

Ev13 it is said to come from Africa. But there is no our of Africa migration after Mesolithic. 

So Ev13 is here until Mesolithic, as huntergatherers. In Neoklithic came J2b and unite together, and since Neolithic they are together as the same nation/race/language of Balkan, Italy and Asia minor.

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## Neander

How yes no, the map is nothing. I can draw a map, whenever I want. but you have no facts.

Arvanites are mentioned since in the 11 century as a separated branch of Albanians, living in Greece. That means, they were in south, earlier then the 14 century.

As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.

Greeks call barbarians those who were not greek, i.e. didnt spoke greek.

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## how yes no 2

> Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea, 
> 
> This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.
> 
> Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.



you do not understand my posts obviously...
early Slavs are of Veneti race...
that is not my claim that is written by historian in 6th century

Veneti are I2 people...
E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...

killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights.... which is very typical motive in Albanian Illyrian and Dardanian propaganda... 

I never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...

there are no more or less indigenous people, as we can always take a snapshot in history when it was opposite... if you claim Albanians origin of Illyrians and Dardanians and are thus more indigenous while R1a are according toy you Mongolians (??), only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it!

R1a Mongolian... you really do not live in reality...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=168

you live in dream of all Balkan being Albanian only in ancient past and how it should be Albanian only in future as well... you see Slavs as R1a Mongolians... and yesterday you implied Greeks being someone who corrupted your pure language...
Albanians are not Pelasgians...

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## Neander

> early Slavs are of Veneti race...


Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.




> Veneti are I2 people...


Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?




> E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...


There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.




> killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights....


Killing is fact that was done in 1999, by serbs, They killed croatian, bosniaks and albanians. Your are linking R1a1 with prot-serbs, in the time when serbs never existed.




> never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...


I am not frightening, you are alone a frightened man, I have mercy for your psychic problems.




> only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it!


There is no out of africa to Europe, migration in 4000 BP.

Ev134 is here since mesolithic.

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## how yes no 2

> Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.
> 
> 
> Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?
> 
> There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.
> 
> R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.
> 
> ...


I never talked of out of Africa in 4000-5000 years before present
but of arrival of E-V13 on Balkans from Asia minor...
Asia minor is not Europe... both Illyrians and Dardanians are fairly recent arrival to Europe from Asia minor...




> R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.


I do not agree that R1a came to Balkan with Slavs... it is in Balkan for 11500 years according to Klyosov....most of or part of I2a2 came with Slavs... but it has only moved from one place in Europe to another place in Europe... and it is hard to say whether I2a2 was also present in areas before Slavs...there are indicators that suggest it might have been...

Serbs are Slavic people dominantly I2a2..... Slavic people are of Veneti origin...there is clear correlation between Veneti and I2 people

However, there is also R1a part that is ancient old in Siberia and Serbia, Bosnia, and Macedonia...
this R1a I call R1a proto-Serbs in sense that they are R1a ancestors of today Serbs (while today Serbs also have I2a2-ancestors, E-V13 ancestors as so on....and those would be I2a2 proto-Serbs, E-V13 proto-Serbs and so on....) ...all nations are of mixed origin....

but in history this R1a was probably Pelasgian.... and was also dominant in people like ancient Macedonians and Etruscan...

btw. Albanians of FYRM has roughly same percentage of R1a as Serbs, Bulgarians and FYRM Macedonians and twice more than people in Montenegro... and Greek Macedonians have much more of R1a than all...




> Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.


Veneti are not same as Illyrians...
read more...




> Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?


that is what I was indicating here in many posts and what I believe in... which is why sometimes I state it very firmly...

but I do not need genetists to tell me that early Slavs were of Veneti race...
history tells me that...



> in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the *populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.* (35)


http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

for genetic related view, well read my posts... 
briefly, spread of I2a2 correlates with location directions of spread of early Slavs (compare maps)




non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have roughly same percentage of R1a as neigbouring Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars, while twice more than Slavic people from Montenegro.... in same time Peloponesse that was massivelly settled by Slavs has 1.8% R1 and 22% of haplogroup I, while Greek Macedonia has much more R1a (up to 30%) than any of neighbouring Slavic lands (around 15%)...in Hungary, people who originate from Slavs live in east and west of country, as Magyars entered center of that area and settled there, which clearly shows in fact that only west and east Hungary (but not center) clusters with central Ukraine, Romania and south Slavs... but oppositely from expected, hotspot of R1a is center of Hungaria while it is much lower in east and west part of it.... I2a2 is dominant in all south Slavs, while the remaining haplogroups vary quite widely, thus their language and culture relationship may be due to I2a2...
look at
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

all this taken together is very strong indicator that widely spread belief that R1a = Slavic should be reconsidered... 

also there are only two samples of I2a* in familytree dna database...one is exactly matching Britanny Veneti and other position of Adriatic Veneti...

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

also R1a is 11500 years old in Balkan and 3000-5000 years old in rest of Europe... thus its spread to rest of Europe was from Balkan...
www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

to me all this and number of other clues is clear indication that Slavs who were settled on Balkans were I2a2 and not R1a...




> As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.


I guess your logic is Albanians are barbarians, so all people mentioned as barbarians are Albanians?

I have shown you that Tosk tribal name is probably related to Uscana tribe of Illyrians and that tribal name does probably origin from same root as Etruscan tribal name.... if you look at the map, it is obvious that Uscana expanded to south when Bryges moved to Asia minor and became Phrygians... next expansion was probably in 14th century...

thus we have likely two-fold origin of Albanians - Geghs from Dardanians and Tosks from Uscan tribe of Illyrians... language of Epirotes disappeared from history as many other languages throughout Europe....
why do you map all ancient tribes to Albanians? it is even hard to claim relation to Illyrians, as few preserved words of Illyrian are completely alien to Albanian (match must be both in form and meaning everything else is cheating)

and if you read carefully my posts on this topic you will realize that I do try to be fair in reconstructing possible history of Albanians.... I am just occasionally annoyed with your aggressive approach in which R1a are recently settled Mongolians, Greeks are hybrids who lost purity of Albanian language and similar non-sense... grow up...wake up from your delusions...

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## how yes no 2

very interesting peculiarity !!

compare maps 


for larger map click here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eria_300BC.svg



In Portugal you can find Caladuni close to Seurbi and Helleni
In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...

I guess once upon a time Iberian peninsula was new continent as America much later... if you look better you will see Germani somewhere further...

but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....

from Caladuni come Caledones from whom Scotish people partially origin as I explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103

Caledones are number 1 in this map: 





> Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 *Declaration of Arbroath* the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians




> Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the *Scots*, has been graced with widespread renown. They *journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain* among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. *Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.* The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.


this is from the Declaration of Arbroath 
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...h_english.html




> The Scottish people (Scots Gaelic: *Albannaich*), or Scots, are a nation and ethnic group native to Scotland. Historically they emerged from an amalgamation of the Celtic Picts (east) and Gaels (west), incorporating neighbouring Britons to the south as well as invading Germanic peoples such as the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people




> Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots, popularly known as the *Doric*, refers to the dialects of Scots spoken in the northeast of Scotland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

now flag colors



not sure how to interpret relation to Doric, Greek colours, and Albanian related name, and possible Illyrian tribe of origin...
and how to relate that with neigbouring tribes being Seurbi in Iberian peninsula and Serdi in Balkan....

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## Neander

> In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...


Wrong.

As Alexander Stipcevic, a great historian of illyrians from Croatia, said that Taulants are related to albanian word Dallendyshe (swallow), and Helidon in ancient greek means (swallow), it is clear that Helidones is Exonim, translation of Taulant into hellenic language.

There is no such thing as greek in illyrian lands.

Even there are exonims of Latins, for example, Pirustae- Dardans, Triballi-tricornensi etc.

We must open our eyes, the history is not game, to play with it.

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## Neander

> but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....


Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...serbs_jats.php

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## how yes no 2

> Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.
> 
> http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...serbs_jats.php


that is typical Croatian propaganda... make story of own high worth origin and Serbian lower worth origin by inventing tribal name that has lower worth meaning for Serbs... Croatian quasi-historians as the one quoted in this article are often biased people in that respect.... I wouldnot trust their "findings" on this topic......same as I would not trust equivalent Serbian quazi-historian who claims Croats are just new name for Avars and how Albanians are settled in 11th century from Caucasus Albania...

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## how yes no 2

> Wrong.
> 
> As Alexander Stipcevic, a great historian of illyrians from Croatia, said that Taulants are related to albanian word Dallendyshe (swallow), and Helidon in ancient greek means (swallow), it is clear that Helidones is Exonim, translation of Taulant into hellenic language.
> 
> There is no such thing as greek in illyrian lands.
> 
> Even there are exonims of Latins, for example, Pirustae- Dardans, Triballi-tricornensi etc.
> 
> We must open our eyes, the history is not game, to play with it.



Taulanti are on map much more south than Chelidoni, so it is not likely same tribe... 

but there is other thing - the name of the tribe ends on -don which indicates potentially Celtic people... now Serdi are also Celtic so it makes sense that they travelled together with Chelidoni... and Caladuni in Iberia are I think Celtic as well...and Scots gaelic self name Albanah reminds on Albanoi tribe that were as I remember also Celtic till recently wikipedia made them illyrian...
so guess it was very fasionable to be Celtic....




> According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians on the side of the Encheleans.[2]
> [edit]Polyphemus and Galatea
> According to the Illyrian Wars of Appian, Illyrius was the *son of the Cyclops Polyphemus and his wife Galatea with siblings Celtus and Galas.* The children of Polyphemus *all migrated from Sicily and ruled over the peoples named after them, the Celts, the Illyrians, and the Galatians*.[3] This particular genealogy was most likely composed by the ancient Greek founders of Epidamnus (Corinthians and Corcyrans) and preserved in Appian's work.[4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

Galatians is same as Celts
so Illyrians might have been Celtic people as well...




> Progeny
> 
> Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes:[5]
> Sons
> Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
> Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
> Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
> Maedus (Μαίδον)
> Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

now, Pannonians I relate to early spread of I2 in Illyria...as they are the people who settled Illyria after it was depopulated by Dacians...

Triballi are name used by some Byznatine authors for Serbs
Scordisci and Serdi are same people just Celtic and Thracian version of tribal name.... now link with Iberia suggests..

btw. looking at map Illyrian Scirtari tribe may be the origin of self-designation of Albanians (Shqiptari)

----------


## Neander

> Taulanti are on map much more south than Chelidoni, so it is not likely same tribe...


In fact, Chelidoni were a branch of Taulanti. But until their name have the same meaning, they are the same tribe.

Chelidoni is a greek name for Taulanti.




> now, Pannonians I relate to early spread of I2 in Illyria...as they are the people who settled Illyria after it was depopulated by Dacians...


For me, Panonians are a branch of Big Pelasgic population like Illyrians.

Or like Apiani said:

*[**§6]* These peoples, and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube, the Romans distinguished from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of Illyria as embraced under a common designation. 
Whence this idea took its start I have not been able to find out, but it continues to this day, for they farm the tax of all the nations from the source of the Danube to the Euxine Sea under one head, and call it the Illyrian tax. Why the Romans subjugated them, and what were the real causes or pretexts of the wars, I acknowledged, when writing of Crete, that I had not discovered, and I exhorted those who were able to tell more, to do so. I shall write down only what I know.

----------


## Neander

And no my friend, Illyrians were not Celtic, but Celts were an illyrian tribe.

----------


## Zajaz

> Tosks would on map of Illyrian tribes perhaps be Uscana as e.g. what was Etruria is now Tuscany...
> Uscana is in area next to west FYRM, which explains large R1a in Albanians of FYRM who never mixed with Slavic settlers....
> R1a and J2 is what connects Uscana (Tosk?) Illyrians with ancient Macedonians...


It does make some sense that Uscana's people (most likely Penestians) shared some links with the Macedonians. This has bothered to me for a long time but I couldn't find any fact to back my suspects on that matter. Can you better elaborate to me (because I'm amateur in Genetics) why do you think Uscana's people had the same Genetic markers with the Macedonians. You already mentioned R1a and J2 that possibly match them with the Macedonians. I've a couple of question: Is it proved that ancient Macedones have had these Genetic markers (R1a and J2)? Is any proof else to confirm that these genetic markers are found in any other Illyrian region (except Uscana)?

Thnx

P.S: I hope not to bore you with my frequently questions because as I said I am still 'pupil' in that field...and I'd like to learn more.

----------


## binx

> Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....


There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.

The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word _tuscus_, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves _Rasenna_, not _Tusci_.

The name Tosk, (Albanian _toskë_), was borrowed from Venetian _tosko or tosco_ that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin. 

As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.


"Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."

Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.

----------


## Hawk

> No you insulted us first. You attacked people's intelligence and accuse them of issuing personal attacks while telling me 2 or 3 times today that I have mental issues. Then when Archetype0ne told you to take your pills you cry wolf. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back. 
> You insulted me from your very first response. So don't play the victim. 
> Any way, as I responded to you before, the sample database for Albanians in Macedonia is still small and I am contributing to this effort in time. 
> Again how can you expect percentages to remain consistent between 2 different sample groups?
> Are you so blinded to think they can possibly know what the result of the collected sample will be? I don't even think the study says where those samples were gathered from. How do you know they didn't only target a few villages?
> And if 100 were spread so thin all over, how can you treat 1 or 2 samples a village as indicative of the overall geographic concentration of a specific haplogroup?
> What happens if Macedonia reaches 200 samples in the project, with specific regionalizationon(twice as much as the study you're quoting) and the E-V13 remains low?
> Are you going to claim that's a lie too?
> Where is it cemented in stone that E-V13 will consistently remain 35%? Especially when you're quiting small sample groups?
> ...


This is my first reply to you: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post625126

Stop being a drama queen. I think i am fair enough when i say i don't trust you guys and like me (other E-V13) will not trust these projects, unless they are done by peer reviewed papers by academics. Even if it is 1%, we know it's truth.

----------


## Dibran

> This is my first reply to you: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post625126
> Stop being a drama queen. I think i am fair enough when i say i don't trust you guys and like me (other E-V13) will not trust these projects, unless they are done by peer reviewed papers by academics. Even if it is 1%, we know it's truth.


Insulting again. 
You're the drama queen buddy. Instead of engaging with a moniker of respect you deflect the logical points people are making as if there's some mass conspiracy against E-V13 people. And you say I have issues?
Did you bother reading the example I cited of 2 separate peer review papers contradicting eachother on haplogroup frequencies? 
One peer review study finds Albanians of Macedonia habe as much as 12.5% R1a. Another peer review finds in a similar sample size of Albanians in Macedonia as low as 1.5% R1a.

How do you explain that discrepancy wise guy?

What will you start saying when another peer review study reports a lower percentage of E-V13?

Will you then pick and choose what makes you happy? 

Or at least comprehend these studies are not gospel truth and also subject to the same sample bias you accused both projects of?

Grow up.

----------


## Trojet

> I'm asking for proof if your criticism in the manipulation of E-V13 in the project. I could believe it for Gjenetika, I don't believe Rrenjet would do that though.


Not very nice of you to say that about Gjenetika project, without any evidence, seemingly just because you may have had disagreement/argument with an admin. And let's not forget that it was the voluntary work of Gjenetika that helped and guided you throughout when you first tested.

While we're at it, maybe there should be questions about a project ("Rrenjet") that intentionally hides Albanian samples and removes their flags all over the YFull tree. A quick example I could find:



^ The tree in November 2019 before they decided to split from Gjenetika. These two IDs are either hidden or removed flags as of now: https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z38300/

----------


## Hawk

> Insulting again. 
> You're the drama queen buddy. Instead of engaging with a moniker of respect you deflect the logical points people are making as if there's some mass conspiracy against E-V13 people. And you say I have issues?
> Did you bother reading the example I cited of 2 separate peer review papers contradicting eachother on haplogroup frequencies? 
> One peer review study finds Albanians of Macedonia habe as much as 12.5% R1a. Another peer review finds in a similar sample size of Albanians in Macedonia as low as 1.5% R1a.
> How do you explain that discrepancy wise guy?
> What will you start saying when another peer review study reports a lower percentage of E-V13?
> Will you then pick and choose what makes you happy? 
> Or at least comprehend these studies are not gospel truth and also subject to the same sample bias you accused both projects of?
> Grow up.


Don't bring R1a here, i don't really care much. I brought valid points and stick to it.

In two separate DNA studies the level of E-V13 was similar to the ~35% which makes the most sense. Any involvement on testing our population from your side is not welcomed, especially not monitored by a committee participants both internal and external. You see? At least i am a fair guy. This is all i ask.

----------


## Dibran

> Not very nice of you to say that about Gjenetika project, without any evidence, seemingly just because you may have had disagreement/argument with an admin. And let's not forget that it was the voluntary work of Gjenetika that helped and guided you when you first tested.
> While we're at it, maybe there should be doubts about a project ("Rrenjet") that intentionally hides the samples of Albanians all over the YFull tree (or removes their flags). A quick example I could find:
> 
> The tree in November 2019. These two IDs are nowhere to be found as of now: https://yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z38300/


Simple explanation: they didn't pay for the upload. 

This happened with a couple other Albanians in L1029. They were added to the tree. They didn't pay, so they were removed. With exception of 1 that I paid for to keep on the tree. Their result is still publicly available in the project for those not on the tree. 

On your other point, you failed to come to any resolution when I called you for his lies. You also didnt popular correcting him when he was he was saying he paid kits I PAID FOR, in an attempt to take kits back from Rrenjet you deemed "yours". And you knew full well. 

I already made myself clear why all trust was lost lost tour project. Only a moron would have continued donating to the project when it's administration belittle its contributing members and allow people who openly lie to get away with such nonsense. 

And it was brought to your attention numerous times about this admins antics. And you couldn't care less.

----------


## Trojet

> Simple explanation: they didn't pay for the upload.


This is 100% false. Besides, YFull will not remove flags of samples like for example YF15992 (which you can see is missing it as of now). Yes, they can remove/hide the sample if not paid, but only the kit manager can add or remove flags  :Wink:

----------


## Dibran

> Don't bring R1a here, i don't really care much. I brought valid points and stick to it.
> 
> In two separate DNA studies the level of E-V13 was similar to the ~35% which makes the most sense. Any involvement on testing our population from your side is not welcomed, especially not monitored by a committee participants both internal and external. You see? At least i am a fair guy. This is all i ask.



I can bring up R1a here all I want where it concerns Albanians. You have no authority in this forum. Nor do you have any authority to decide what lines are or aren't Albanian. Albanian origins concern more than just 1-3 haplogroups depending on stage of history and development. 

Buddy, nothing you say or do will stop me or the projects efforts. Both projects for that matter. Even if I don't trust Gjenetika. There's literally nothing someone like you can say or do to stop their efforts. 

All you can do is just whine and moan and hurl insults when someone doesn't agree with you. 

Simple fact is 100 samples means nothing against 1100-1500 samples between both projects. Nothing you say or do will change what the data shows. 

You cherry pick papers to support some elite dominance of E-V13 any and everywhere whilst accusing others of having an agenda and cherry picking. 

I can't wait for more in depth studies and peer reviewed papers to start contradicting you so you have no choice but to accept the reality that numbers and frequencies do change depending on sample size, sampling bias and a number of other factors your too blind to comprehend.

----------


## Dibran

> This is 100% false. Besides, YFull wound not remove flags of samples like for example YF15992. Yes, they can remove/hide the sample if not paid, but only the kit manager can add or remove flags


Maybe it was the request I'd the tester?

Or maybe because there's no flag for Kosova thet just leave it out?

Either way you knowingly ignorned/supported a liar who belittled a contributing member. I can't really believe anything you say at this point I'm afraid.

----------


## Hawk

> I can bring up R1a here all I want where it concerns Albanians. You have no authority in this forum. Nor do you have any authority to decide what lines are or aren't Albanian. Albanian origins concern more than just 1-3 haplogroups depending on stage of history and development. 
> 
> Buddy, nothing you say or do will stop me or the projects efforts. Both projects for that matter. Even if I don't trust Gjenetika. There's literally nothing someone like you can say or do to stop their efforts. 
> 
> All you can do is just whine and moan and hurl insults when someone doesn't agree with you. 
> 
> Simple fact is 100 samples means nothing against 1100-1500 samples between both projects. Nothing you say or do will change what the data shows. 
> 
> You cherry pick papers to support some elite dominance of E-V13 any and everywhere whilst accusing others of having an agenda and cherry picking. 
> ...


Thanks for showing me what you guys are up to. :)

You can try, but then again you will fail.

----------


## Dibran

> Thanks for showing me what you guys are up to. :)
> 
> You can try, but then again you will fail.


Keep deflecting and avoiding the reality. You can keep crying like a child and contribute nothing but ridicule. Put your money where you mouth is or zip it.

----------


## Hawk

> Keep deflecting and avoiding the reality. You can keep crying like a child and contribute nothing but ridicule. Put your money where you mouth is or zip it.


You were butthurt because of your Y-DNA and now you want in a way a revenge. That's why you sneaked on that project so you can be a factor.

----------


## Dibran

> You were butthurt because of your Y-DNA and now you want in a way a revenge. That's why you sneaked on that project so you can be a factor.


What in God's good name are you even babbling about?

I'm not butthurt. Im proud of who I am you gomar. 

It's obvious you're the butthurt child crying about percentage frequency of their own haplogroup and assuming there's some grand conspiracy against E-V13 Albanians. 

You're absolutely a joke. And you have exposed you're the same brainless drivel as Fustan and these other clowns for trying to attack people on their haplogroup. Literal cancer lol. 

I'm not even a factor nor assume to be. I'm not even an admin nor care to be. Just a person interested in contributing my time and money to specific avenues where it concerns the research of our people. 

You could do the same if you weren't too busy wasting your time with conspiracies and telling people what to do with their money as if you have any say in the matter. 

I can tell you wish one of the projects made you a "E-V13 admin", hence your little crusade.

----------


## exercitus

I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ... 
So please a little bit more comprehension and respect. 
Thanks

----------


## Hawk

> I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ... 
> So please a little bit more comprehension and respect. 
> Thanks


No one mentioned your I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanian ancestors or insulted them. It was a scapegoat put into the table to cover up some other valid objections.

----------


## hrvat22

> The problem with peer reviewed sources is that(aside from the Macedonia study which was decent), most studies are interested in haplotype diversity, some for medical reasons, some to build a database for courts or other institutions, etc.
> 
> Very rarely do they attempt to understand ancestry of a people. 
> 
> *Another big problem is these sample sizes are literally meaningless when compared to a countries entire population size. 50-100 people.* 
> More often than not, you never know where they specifically come from. There's almost always a broad generalization with no breakdown. The most detailed they have gotten was to say Gheg or Tosk which tells you nothing on a geographical distribution of a particular lineage. 
> 
> I'm sorry, that will never compare to 1100-1500 samples that are higher resolution than average and actually publicly provide the villages people are from with detailed distribution/break down. 
> 
> ...


This is from 2012, _"Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database" ._




> Statistical analysis of the data from previously performedgenetic analyses collected during routine forensic work bythe Forensic Science Centre ‘‘Ivan Vucetic´’’ was performedin this study. Based on geographical and historical information we divided Croatia into five regions: eastern, western, southern, northern and central (Fig. 1).* A total of 1,100 samples*


http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf

I think this is ok for Croatian Y DNA statistics.

----------


## Dibran

> This is from 2012, _"Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database" ._
> http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-con...ports-2012.pdf
> I think this is ok for Croatian Y DNA statistics.


I'm talking Albanian sample sizes. The one you quoted for Croatians is huge. Would love to see such for Albanians that are peer reviewed.

The sad fact is most studies for Albanian sample sizes are rarely over 100. 1000-2000 at least should be the standard for these sort of peer reviewed studies.

That recent Turkish study pending release was also real big. Not necessarily just by sample size but it was 700-800 whole genome sequenced. Many of which have been added to yfull with more on the way.

Such an effort for Albania or other individual Balkan studies would be huge. Especially whole genome that can be added to yfull.

----------


## hrvat22

> I'm talking Albanian sample sizes. The one you quoted for Croatians is huge. Would love to see such for Albanians that are peer reviewed.
> The sad fact is most studies for Albanian sample sizes are rarely over 100. 1000-2000 at least should be the standard for these sort of peer reviewed studies.
> That recent Turkish study pending release was also real big. Not necessarily just by sample size but it was 700-800 whole genome sequenced. Many of which have been added to yfull with more on the way.
> Such an effort for Albania or other individual Balkan studies would be huge. Especially whole genome that can be added to yfull.


I don't know why this is so in other countries (small samples). Otherwise my wet dreams are 1100 samples for Croatians with *Big Y*. After that, I could die with a smile.

----------


## Trojet

> I sincerely do not understand such animosity against I2a-Din and R1a-M417 Albanians, our ancestors (yes, i also belong to this category !!) have been incorporated from more than 1000 years into the Albanophone milieu!! Our forefathers took part at the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), Siege of Svetigrad (1448) side by side with Gjergj Kastrioti Skenderbeg, Morea revolt of 1453–1454, Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844 etc etc as Albanians ... 
> So please a little bit more comprehension and respect. 
> Thanks


Not sure which way this post was directed to, but I would agree with this 100%. And as an admin of Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika, I've personally made it clear to Dibran, or any other Albanian with I2a-Din or R1a-M417, that they are just as "Albanian" as anyone else, regardless of their Y-DNA haplogroup. After all, if we test enough of our ancestral lines, there is a high likelihood that all of us will run into one of these haplogroups, but of course for Y-DNA (direct paternal) only one can show up.

----------


## hrvat22

> Not sure which way this post was directed to, but I would agree with this 100%. And as an admin of Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika, I've personally made it clear to Dibran, or any other Albanian with I2a-Din or R1a-M417, that they are just as "Albanian" as anyone else, regardless of their Y-DNA haplogroup. After all, if we test enough of our ancestral lines, there is a high likelihood that all of us will run into one of these haplogroups, but of course for Y-DNA (direct paternal) only one can show up.


The problem is that genetics is viewed from today's perspective and then interpreted. Surely there are also psychological problems in the Balkans because no one would like to be someone else ie of a different origin.

Among Serbian forum members, E1b is an old Balkan haplotype not Albanian, Macedonian, Greek etc. There is probably fear if it is said Albanian and they live a few meters from Albania and assimilation has certainly taken place, just as Slavic haplotypes entered the Albanian population. Only in Albania it is probably different because Slavs probably came to these areas in the first Slavic waves also toward the area of Greece.

Bosnian Serb population has E1b as second haplotype in the population and probably a good portion of the same coming from direction where there is a lot of it (southeastern Europe). The fact that some of these E1b people in Bosnia have relatives in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria etc. does not mean that someone is less Serb, Croat, etc. It just means that these people are connected by male line and possibly proves migration ie place from which their ancestors coming to Bosnia. It's probably a shock to some but a good part of these ancestors assimilated in medieval Serbia so it's possible and older bond or younger which has to do with the Turkish period.

Unfortunately or fortunately this is genetics and there is no exit strategy, we must respect genetic results. The Hungarians are mostly or largely Ydna Slavs no matter how hard it was for them. Or when we say that good part of Slavic genetics of Yugoslavia possible has source in the White Croatia.

----------


## kingjohn

what is good in rrenjet project ( in _my view opinion_)
is that it reach places which are more rural rather than urban like  :Cool V: 
and as i said before it gives a chance to find rare linages in albanians
for example: the e1a cluster which occure in *diber area* and even in golloborda minority

Fisi
Rrethi
Qarku
Shteti
Rezultati


Bulqizë
Dibër
Shqipëri
E1a-M132


Bulqizë
Dibër
Shqipëri
E1a-M132


Bulqizë
Dibër
Shqipëri
E1a-M132


Bulqizë
Dibër
Shqipëri
E1a-M132


Krujë
Durrës
Shqipëri
E1a-M132


Librazhd
Elbasan
Shqipëri
E1a-M132







Golloborda
Fshatra shqipfolës
Fshatra dygjuhësh


N=33
N=15
N=18

J2b-L283
27.3
13.3
38.9

R1a-M417
21.2
26.7
16.7

E-V13
18.2
33.3
5.6

I2a-Y3120
9.1

16.7

R2b-M269
6.1

11.2

J2a-M410
6.1
6.7
5.6

I2a-M223
3
6.7


I2a-CTS595
3
6.7


E-M123
3

5.6

E-M132
*3*
6.7




so alban effort is good  :Good Job:

----------


## gjergj

I see that hell has broken loose :) 
Despite any opinion I might have about other Albanian projects I don't know any Albanian projects that are cherry picking results with the aim of changing/manipulating % of haplogroups. So these accusations are baseless regardless of direction that they are aimed. I can say this with 100% certainty about Rrenjet Project but again I don't have any knowledge that any one else is trying to manipulate %. 

Of course it might be better if more Albanians from Macedonia would test so that we can have a greater sample. The larger sample, plus geographically well spread would provide a better picture. Until than we have to work with what we have. 

lets hope we move the discussion to more productive themes.

----------


## Hawk

> I see that hell has broken loose :) 
> Despite any opinion I might have about other Albanian projects I don't know any Albanian projects that are cherry picking results with the aim of changing/manipulating % of haplogroups. So these accusations are baseless regardless of direction that they are aimed. I can say this with 100% certainty about Rrenjet Project but again I don't have any knowledge that any one else is trying to manipulate %. 
> 
> Of course it might be better if more Albanians from Macedonia would test so that we can have a greater sample. The larger sample, plus geographically well spread would provide a better picture. Until than we have to work with what we have. 
> 
> lets hope we move the discussion to more productive themes.


I guess this passes by the rule of word "I guarantee you". Just as General Admiral Aladdin, you collect, you make the statistics, you peer reviewed and approve it, everything by yourself.

----------


## blevins13

> I guess this passes by the rule of word "I guarantee you". Just as General Admiral Aladdin, you collect, you make the statistics, you peer reviewed and approve it, everything by yourself.


You are creating a issue where there is none.
Based on these volunteers projects Albanians can trace their family histories, this is a huge achievement, done with private money. So we have to congratulate all the people involved. 

Based on personal experience, In every village tested only one person per each tribe/fis/fare has been tested. You can try this yourself choose a village in North Macedonia and test it. No one is claiming that these projects are well crafted academic samples. 

Instead of complaining, you can help increasing the number of Albanian tested in Macedonia. 

All the best


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Galaxy Overlord

I have come to understand the potential bias and political incentives behind much of the haplogroup and genetic arguing that goes on in these types of forums. This of course happens very commonly between Balkan nations like Serbia and Albania for obvious political reasons. 

However, I don't understand what is going on here with Albanians having distrust between their haplogroups? 

Can someone explain why Hawk thinks other Albanians would be biased and trying to over inflate non E-V13 haplogroups? 

What would the incentive be? Or am I misunderstanding the argument entirely?

----------


## Archetype0ne

> I have come to understand the potential bias and political incentives behind much of the haplogroup and genetic arguing that goes on in these types of forums. This of course happens very commonly between Balkan nations like Serbia and Albania for obvious political reasons. 
> 
> However, I don't understand what is going on here with Albanians having distrust between their haplogroups? 
> 
> Can someone explain why Hawk thinks other Albanians would be biased and trying to over inflate non E-V13 haplogroups? 
> 
> What would the incentive be? Or am I misunderstanding the argument entirely?


When you get an answer let me know  :Embarassed:  ... Since I tried asking personally twice and no response. Like I'm trying to understand the endgame if what he is saying were to be true, and I can't think of any outcome.

----------


## Dibran

> I have come to understand the potential bias and political incentives behind much of the haplogroup and genetic arguing that goes on in these types of forums. This of course happens very commonly between Balkan nations like Serbia and Albania for obvious political reasons. 
> 
> However, I don't understand what is going on here with Albanians having distrust between their haplogroups? 
> 
> Can someone explain why Hawk thinks other Albanians would be biased and trying to over inflate non E-V13 haplogroups? 
> 
> What would the incentive be? Or am I misunderstanding the argument entirely?


He made his reasons pretty clear, actually. Even if they are unfounded.

He assumes project percentages are being manipulated since most peer review studies list E-V13 in Albanians at "35+%". Completely neglecting things like sampling bias, sampling size, where samples are collected etc. Even with this conspiracy, E-V13 is still the number one percentage-wise in both projects. 

The most asinine reason He doesn't trust either Albanian DNA project, in his own words; "There is no high level E-V13 admin". Whether that's because he assumes there need be a high level shot caller since "most Albanians are E-V13", or because he is one of these people obsessed with their own haplogroup that he thinks people are so infantile to be able to comprehend facts because they don't share his haplogroup. Somehow there's a big conspiracy since most project admins are J2b or R1b. 

He claims there should be a committee of these main 3, yet can care less whether other Albanians and their haplogroups get representation. 

Personally, I don't think it matters what an admins haplogroup is. All they need be is honest, transparent and competent in what they're doing.

----------


## Hawk

> He made his reasons pretty clear, actually. Even if they are unfounded.
> He assumes project percentages are being manipulated since most peer review studies list E-V13 in Albanians at "35+%". Completely neglecting things like sampling bias, sampling size, where samples are collected etc. Even with this conspiracy, E-V13 is still the number one percentage-wise in both projects. 
> The most asinine reason He doesn't trust either Albanian DNA project, in his own words; "There is no high level E-V13 admin". Whether that's because he assumes there need be a high level shot caller since "most Albanians are E-V13", or because he is one of these people obsessed with their own haplogroup that he thinks people are so infantile to be able to comprehend facts because they don't share his haplogroup. Somehow there's a big conspiracy since most project admins are J2b or R1b. 
> He claims there should be a committee of these main 3, yet can care less whether other Albanians and their haplogroups get representation. 
> Personally, I don't think it matters what an admins haplogroup is. All they need be is honest, transparent and competent in what they're doing.


How much did you pay Gjergj to put your Y-DNA subclade in the blog post?  :Laughing: 

https://rrenjet.com/r-l1029/

All i can see from you is strawman only.

----------


## Dibran

> How much did you pay Gjergj to put your Y-DNA subclade in the blog post? 
> https://rrenjet.com/r-l1029/
> All i can see from you is strawman only.


There's articles on all the haplogroups in Albanians. Not just your precious E-V13. You pathetic rat. So stop being a princess. Qeni bir qeni.

Try looking up the actual definition of strawman before throwing words around to sound smart. Mentally deficient moron.

----------


## Hawk

> There's articles on all the haplogroups in Albanians. Not just your precious E-V13. You pathetic rat. So stop being a princess. Qeni bir qeni.
> Try looking up the actual definition of strawman before throwing words around to sound smart. Mentally deficient moron.

----------


## Dibran

> 


Nice picture of yourself. Clown.

----------


## broder

> Simple explanation: they didn't pay for the upload. 
> 
> This happened with a couple other Albanians in L1029. They were added to the tree. They didn't pay, so they were removed. With exception of 1 that I paid for to keep on the tree. Their result is still publicly available in the project for those not on the tree. 
> 
> On your other point, you failed to come to any resolution when I called you for his lies. You also didnt popular correcting him when he was he was saying he paid kits I PAID FOR, in an attempt to take kits back from Rrenjet you deemed "yours". And you knew full well. 
> 
> I already made myself clear why all trust was lost lost tour project. Only a moron would have continued donating to the project when it's administration belittle its contributing members and allow people who openly lie to get away with such nonsense. 
> 
> And it was brought to your attention numerous times about this admins antics. And you couldn't care less.


What are you blabbering about you inconsistent moron? 

Kits I mentioned I have YSEQ records for, where I donated directly to the Albanian Bloodlines group or the Bytyci group there. We kept an Excel sheet for all the contributions too, for everyone, which other admins have access and can confirm as well if there is a need.

----------


## broder

> Nope, it's for the sake of balance.
> 
> Albanian DNA Project was originally and initially created by an E-V13 member. Any Albanian DNA Project not having an admin who belongs to the most frequent Y-DNA in the population is unnaceptable.


Two of the admins there actually belong to your cluster, Trim and Kuqezi (yes, he is still an active admin).

So, you have nothing to complain about as you're well represented lol

----------


## Dibran

> What are you blabbering about you inconsistent moron? 
> Kits I mentioned I have YSEQ records for, where I donated directly to the Albanian Bloodlines group or the Bytyci group there. We kept an Excel sheet for all the contributions too, for everyone, which other admins have access and can confirm as well if there is a need.


You're a moron yourself, and a liar. Before the thread was wiped in anthro(and you banned), a couple specific kit numbers you listed in your list of kits you claimed to have funded personally were ones that I paid for.

Trojet even admitted it to me in a personal message that a couple of those kits you listed in your response to Gjergj were in fact a Okshtun sample, and a surname I paid to test from Mirdita(don't want to put their name here). The ones I specifically requested and donated to the project for., among another 8 that may have been spread out. 

As for your other listed kits I can't comment on as I have no knowledge/evidence for or against your financial contribution. I know what I paid for though.

----------


## broder

> You're a moron yourself, and a liar. Before the thread was wiped in anthro(and you banned), a couple specific kit numbers you listed in your list of kits you claimed to have funded personally were ones that I paid for.
> Trojet even admitted it to me in a personal message that a couple of those kits you listed in your response to Gjergj were in fact a Okshtun sample, and a surname I paid to test from Mirdita(don't want to put their name here). The ones I specifically requested and donated to the project for., among another 8 that may have been spread out. 
> As for your other listed kits I can't comment on as I have no knowledge/evidence for or against your financial contribution. I know what I paid for though.


When someone calls me a liar, I don't take it lightly. Kits I mentioned I could have mixed up perhaps one or two when we did that Dibra/Koplik round because Alban kept records, and he messed around with them. Here is a screenshot I took a while ago of all the kits from his document that we paid for on that round: 
https://imgur.com/youUalz

Take for example kit 20399 that I paid for. He removed it from our project. What do you think is the best action for him to take in this case??? I have simply asked them to refund us for those kits that they removed or place them back where they belong.

----------


## broder

I only have six posts so can't seem to post images, but I just emailed it to you..

----------


## Hawk

> Nice picture of yourself. Clown.


O shka i biri shkines, why you keep barking like a vile dog?

----------


## Jovialis

I will close this thread for now.

----------


## Jovialis

Because I've been asked multiple time to reopen the thread, I will do so. But, please follow the forum rules, and act in a civil manner towards your fellow members. Otherwise we will be forced to lock the thread once more.

----------


## Jovialis

Oops, *now* I've reopened it. I neglected to tick the box to do so. :)

----------


## blevins13

> Oops, *now* I've reopened it. I neglected to tick the box to do so. :)


Thanks Jovialis, Albanians now are allowed to discuss their Dna 🧬. If someone goes berserk there is no need to shut down the thread. Penalties should be personal.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Gannicus

> 



lol, what's going on here?

Now, i've seen some wild stuff, but albanians insulting each other over haplos is new to me...

Oh no, wait a sec, i now remembered about Fustan.

Yeah ok, nothing new i guess xD

----------


## Gannicus

Btw guys, i wanna test again for my dna, think those greeks of myheritage scammed me xD

I cannot find my email with the data anymore, my inbox is full of trash, it's more worth it to retest myself, so i wanted to use this occasion to ask you guys what site/tester you advice me and how to start understanding the genetic data they send me back.

It appears in years that i've been here i haven't understood too much about dna, not really bcs i can't grasp basic genetic notions, rather bcs i am a big time technology hater, even tho i'm a millenial, and i cannot seem to be able to find studies/papers that are updated and reliable on the net, i just hate technology, what can i say.

Yeasterday i learnd how a new windows shortcut on my laptop, i feel Edward Snowden now, just to give you an idea of how impeded i am, lol.

Any help/advice is highly appreciated.

God bless you all.

----------


## Gannicus

> O shka i biri shkines, why you keep barking like a vile dog?


Why'd you call him a shka? Oh wait, is it bcs of the R1a? Like really? Thought MUH "WE AIN'T LIKE JUGOSLAVS FIGHTING OVER THE DUMBEST THINGS AND KILLING EACH OTHER OVER NONESENSE", where did that attitude go?

----------


## tijana.jovanovic

Nevermind i decided what i said was not so good

----------


## Excine

deleted as per request.

----------


## Spammen01

It is not true that Albanians are short Mediterranean people
We have to distinguish between northern Albanian and southern Albanian or if you prefer gheg and tosk
While I don't have precise data regarding the height of southern and northern Albanian within Albania i could find the average height of Kosovara and Albanians 
Kosovo average height ≈ 180
Albania average height ≈ 176,5
Even accounting for the slav population in Kosovo there is still a substantial difference in height between Albanians form Kosovo and Albania and Albanians form Kosovo are taller than Albanians form albania despite having less slav DNA

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> It is not true that Albanians are short Mediterranean people
> We have to distinguish between northern Albanian and southern Albanian or if you prefer gheg and tosk
> While I don't have precise data regarding the height of southern and northern Albanian within Albania i could find the average height of Kosovara and Albanians 
> Kosovo average height ≈ 180
> Albania average height ≈ 176,5
> Even accounting for the slav population in Kosovo there is still a substantial difference in height between Albanians form Kosovo and Albania and Albanians form Kosovo are taller than Albanians form albania despite having less slav DNA


This is nonsense, albanians were shorter during communist era but not so much anymore, height seems to be more related to nutrition than genetics. Anyway, visit berat or fier and you'll see some tall albanians

Also kosovar albanians have more slavic dna than north albanians but thats to be expected

----------


## Dushman

Berat has literally the shortest Albanians I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Fier isn’t that different but better due to the addition of non-local populations such as Labs, Chams, Kosovars, and people from Novi Pazar.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Berat has literally the shortest Albanians I’ve ever seen in my entire life. Fier isn’t that different but better due to the addition of non-local populations such as Labs, Chams, Kosovars, and people from Novi Pazar.


Youre making things up again, youve obviously never been to any of these places.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrit_Oshafi
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneo_Bitri
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashnor_Dume
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunild_Pepa
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rudi...spieler/215757

----------


## Dushman

Dude, I live in Albania. Berat has literally the shortest people I’ve seen in Albania. Not among the shortest, THE SHORTEST. 

I have nothing against you or Berat, no need to get defensive.

----------


## enter_tain

There are no differences between Albanians. Enough of this "my village is better than yours" garbage.

The older generations are shorter because they were poorer. Compare the two Koreas to see why.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Dude, I live in Albania. Berat has literally the shortest people I’ve seen in Albania. Not among the shortest, THE SHORTEST. 
> I have nothing against you or Berat, no need to get defensive.


You must have visited 30 years ago or something after communism broke down and everyone was super poor. Visit now and see that the people are taller than your family. 

Ive been visiting durres, berat and elbasan (and obviously tirane) recently and berat had the tallest people of the 3 on average (wont include tirane since its a capital city with people from everywhere)

----------


## Dushman

> You must have visited 30 years ago or something after communism broke down and everyone was super poor. Visit now and see that the people are taller than your family. 
> Ive been visiting durres, berat and elbasan (and obviously tirane) recently and berat had the tallest people of the 3 on average (wont include tirane since its a capital city with people from everywhere)


1. This is obviously a joke. We got it, you’re from Berat, the city of the shortest people in the Albania, Balkans, and possibly Europe. 

2. 30 years ago I wasn’t even born.

3. They can’t be taller than my family because I’m a Catholic North-Western Albanian from the highlands. My family alone has a higher average than Montenegro and Herzegovina, because unlike most of our compatriots we’re well raised and well fed.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> 1. This is obviously a joke. We got it, you’re from Berat, the city of the shortest people in the Albania, Balkans, and possibly Europe. 
> 2. 30 years ago I wasn’t even born.
> 3. They can’t be taller than my family because I’m a Catholic North-Western Albanian from the highlands. My family alone has a higher average than Montenegro and Herzegovina, because unlike most of our compatriots we’re well raised and well fed.


Yeah keep trolling and staying in your home, youve obviously never visited berat. Since you care about religion you should visit berat as it has several of the oldest churches in albania from byzantine era, one is right next to Muzaka castle

Start visiting places in albania like i have and youll see that people from berat are taller than most other regions. Though like i said height will vary based on how well fed people are, most poor people will be short

----------


## Dushman

> Yeah keep trolling and staying in your home, youve obviously never visited berat. Since you care about religion you should visit berat as it has several of the oldest churches in albania from byzantine era, one is right next to Muzaka castle
> Start visiting places in albania like i have and youll see that people from berat are taller than most other regions. Though like i said height will vary based on how well fed people are, most poor people will be short


You like to use the word ‘trolling’ and ‘troll’ a lot but everyone can see that you’re the definition of it. 

All I said was super simple, idiot-proof, factual, and straight to the point. I said I’m less than 30 years old, I said that I’m (even statistically) from a small region with very tall people (some of the tallest in Europe or the entire world), and that taking into consideration only my family (which is doing very well since the fall of communism) than the numbers will be even more skewed than my already very tall region, because nutrition hasn’t affected us negatively like many others. 

So where do you see trolling? Or because you got offended about the average height? 

Tosks have statistically and historically been the shortest in Europe. On top of it Berat and Myzeqe are even shorter than the average Tosk, not to mention how Labs are way taller to the point of being compared to Ghegs, many times taller than Ghegs too. 

You can try to compete with Korca but even them have some pretty tall mountainous areas as well as I2a-Din so you’ll most probably lose there too. 

Create your own League and compete with Fieri, Lushnja, and Skrapari.

----------


## Pashai Janinës

> You like to use the word ‘trolling’ and ‘troll’ a lot but everyone can see that you’re the definition of it. 
> 
> All I said was super simple, idiot-proof, factual, and straight to the point. I said I’m less than 30 years old, I said that I’m (even statistically) from a small region with very tall people (some of the tallest in Europe or the entire world), and that taking into consideration only my family (which is doing very well since the fall of communism) than the numbers will be even more skewed than my already very tall region, because nutrition hasn’t affected us negatively like many others. 
> 
> So where do you see trolling? Or because you got offended about the average height? 
> 
> Tosks have statistically and historically been the shortest in Europe. On top of it Berat and Myzeqe are even shorter than the average Tosk, not to mention how Labs are way taller to the point of being compared to Ghegs, many times taller than Ghegs too. 
> 
> You can try to compete with Korca but even them have some pretty tall mountainous areas as well as I2a-Din so you’ll most probably lose there too. 
> ...


Not true! And i doubt that you live in Albania. Stereotypically, the region with shortest population in South Albania is considered Mallakastra. But of course among them there are some short people like Kastriot Islami but there are some who are tall like Blendi Klosi. In North Albania those from Dibra are shorter compared to the rest of Northern Albania. I don't understand this your obsession with Berat but you are totally wrong!

P.S.
The guy in the video below is a lal, a myzeqar from Myzeqe region. His name was Aleksandër Kondo, a legend:

----------


## Dushman

> Not true! And i doubt that you live in Albania. Stereotypically, the region with shortest population in South Albania is considered Mallakastra. But of course among them there are some short people like Kastriot Islami but there are some who are tall like Blendi Klosi. In North Albania those from Dibra are shorter compared to the rest of Northern Albania. I don't understand this your obsession with Berat but you are totally wrong!
> P.S.
> The guy in the video below is a lal, a myzeqar from Myzeqe region. His name was Aleksandër Kondo, a legend:


So you opened an Eupedia account to send me 1 tall guy from a specific region with the hope to change my mind? 

And Berat is miles and miles away from Mallakastra, so I am soooo wrong. It is not the same area at all, you need interconnecting flights to get there. 

I will take your word for it, Mallakastra might indeed have shorter people although most of the Mallakastra people I know are well above average. That might be because they’re from Mallakastra e Eger. I know only 1 family from Mallakastra e Bute and they’re indeed very short and swarthy too, whereas those from e Eger have quite a lot of hair hair and green eyes to my surprise. 

Nevertheless, Berat remains the city/town with shortest people that I’ve ever visited although that entire area should be grouped together with Fieri, Lushnje, Mallakaster, as well as Skrapari since Skrapari people have historically moved to Berat a lot. 

Fieri on the other hand has got a fair amount of Labs, Kosovars, Bosnians, and Cams so you get to see a lot more variety than just the usual Tosks. 

And the fact that you concluded that I don’t live in Albania is quite idiotic. As if anybody has any reason to visit Ballshi and make assumptions on Mallakastra people. Next time ask me about people from Cerrik to prove your point of how I don’t live in Albania.

----------


## Pashai Janinës

Nobody told you that you should visit Ballsh. Just don't talk about things that you have no idea because it's.....IDIOTIC. So simple.

----------


## Dushman

> Nobody told you that you should visit Ballsh. Just don't talk about things that you have no idea because it's.....IDIOTIC. So simple.


It’s idiotic to believe that your laser eyes can determine that Berat, which is few kilometers away from Ballsh, is 0.7cm taller where everyone in that region is more or less the same. 

It’s the same stock of people that brings down the average height of Tepelena and Vlora, especially lowlands. Otherwise Labs are quite tall. 

Plus, is that area even 50% Albanian? It’s full of Vlachs, Slavic DNA, Mongoloid slanted eyes, and Anatolian complexion, you name it.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> It’s idiotic to believe that your laser eyes can determine that Berat, which is few kilometers away from Ballsh, is 0.7cm taller where everyone in that region is more or less the same. 
> It’s the same stock of people that brings down the average height of Tepelena and Vlora, especially lowlands. Otherwise Labs are quite tall. 
> Plus, is that area even 50% Albanian? It’s full of Vlachs, Slavic DNA, Mongoloid slanted eyes, and Anatolian complexion, you name it.


Confirmed troll, Berat is an uber albanian area with less crappy islamic names than most gheg regions. Berat has a lot of blonde/blue eyed people like my grandad (my cousins, aunts/uncle etc). On average there are more blonde/blue eyes albanians in berat or korce than north albanian regions. Slanted eyes/mongoloid? You must have run into a jevg or recent immigrant (post communism). Or do you mean eyes for example like ivan perisic - he has weird shaped eyes too

A group of 50+ kosovo albanians were at a beach in durres few days ago and about 20% of them looked straight out of middle east - darker features than turks. Dont get me started on greek tourists, greek people vary from european looking all the way to near saudi arabian complexion and everything in between

Arbereshe were mostly from berat -

In the Middle Ages, Tomorrica was part of the domain of the Muzaka family, an Albanian noble family of Orthodox Christian faith originating from Opar which gave their name to the region of Myzeqe. According to the annals of Gjon Muzaka, Tomorrica in the 15th century consisted of 80 villages.[1] The Muzakas had in the region the "cellar" of their possessions, and also a gold mine.[1] At this time, Tomorrica lied along the Via Egnatia on which Venice carried its goods to Moscopole, Grevena and Thessaloniki.[1]

After the death of Skanderbeg, many families fled to either Greece or Italy and contributed to the emergence of Arvanite and Arbëreshë populations in those lands.[1] Within Calabria, Arbëreshë with the names Gjerba, Jerba, Barç, Zhupa, and Zhepa are held by Eqrem Cabej to have origins in Tomorrice.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> You like to use the word ‘trolling’ and ‘troll’ a lot but everyone can see that you’re the definition of it. 
> All I said was super simple, idiot-proof, factual, and straight to the point. I said I’m less than 30 years old, I said that I’m (even statistically) from a small region with very tall people (some of the tallest in Europe or the entire world), and that taking into consideration only my family (which is doing very well since the fall of communism) than the numbers will be even more skewed than my already very tall region, because nutrition hasn’t affected us negatively like many others. 
> So where do you see trolling? Or because you got offended about the average height? 
> Tosks have statistically and historically been the shortest in Europe. On top of it Berat and Myzeqe are even shorter than the average Tosk, not to mention how Labs are way taller to the point of being compared to Ghegs, many times taller than Ghegs too. 
> You can try to compete with Korca but even them have some pretty tall mountainous areas as well as I2a-Din so you’ll most probably lose there too. 
> Create your own League and compete with Fieri, Lushnja, and Skrapari.


Albania is the latest country in europe to have long lasting communism which affected our parents heights therefore made them shorter than other people in europe. As for tosks being "short", its mostly the parents and grandparents - tosks were more in favour of communism than ghegs so they took it more seriously. Could be that ghegs didnt play by the same rules and fed their kids more

Anyway, like i said height will vary across albania but there is no way berat is shortest on average. Ive visited durres + elbasan recently and berat men were taller

Where is your proof that labs are tall? Also it is the only region in albania that a small group of anatolians settled during ottoman era according to the memoirs of Gjon Muzaka from 1510

----------


## Dushman

> Albania is the latest country in europe to have long lasting communism which affected our parents heights therefore made them shorter than other people in europe. As for tosks being "short", its mostly the parents and grandparents - tosks were more in favour of communism than ghegs so they took it more seriously. Could be that ghegs didnt play by the same rules and fed their kids more
> Anyway, like i said height will vary across albania but there is no way berat is shortest on average. Ive visited durres + elbasan recently and berat men were taller
> Where is your proof that labs are tall? Also it is the only region in albania that a small group of anatolians settled during ottoman era according to the memoirs of Gjon Muzaka from 1510


You deserve to be ignored forever. You’re the Albanian version of torzio.

----------


## Pashai Janinës

> It’s idiotic to believe that your laser eyes can determine that Berat, which is few kilometers away from Ballsh, is 0.7cm taller where everyone in that region is more or less the same. 
> 
> It’s the same stock of people that brings down the average height of Tepelena and Vlora, especially lowlands. Otherwise Labs are quite tall. 
> 
> Plus, is that area even 50% Albanian? It’s full of Vlachs, Slavic DNA, Mongoloid slanted eyes, and Anatolian complexion, you name it.


No, i am not talking about laser eye. I was talking about a stereotype. And I want to add that I live in Fier, a city with a population composed from people from different different regions of Albania. Meanwhile you are talking about an hypothetical personal experience when you visited South Albania. Following your logic, you are an idiot. Not only, but you are also an uneducated person because again using your "laser eye" technique, you are unjustly offending a large part of Albanians. Shame on you! 

And you can tell folktales like the quote below to the foreigners but not us Albanians. You are a retarded teenager. Shko fshi qurret dhe mos na ça hajdarin shumë, loqe.



> I said I’m less than 30 years old, I said that I’m (even statistically) from a small region with very tall people (some of the tallest in Europe or the entire world), and that taking into consideration only my family (which is doing very well since the fall of communism) than the numbers will be even more skewed than my already very tall region, *because nutrition hasn’t affected us negatively like many others.*

----------


## mount123

TaktikatEMalet you did not just open 4 puppet accounts to like your own posts about the *Slavic lineage* *I-Y3120* being ancient Albanian and that people from Berat are supposedly 6'3 tall people, didn't you?  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## PaleoRevenge

Tall labs, that's a good one. If you want to see some real dwarfs, go to the highlands west of Tepelena. You can hold these people in your hands or piggy back them.

----------


## Dushman

More people with mental issues. 

How is it offensive to state that poverty and therefore malnutrition negatively affects height? 

Never mind, I’m out of here. No point dealing with laluc Vlachs.

----------


## Excine

Wrong thread

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> TaktikatEMalet you did not just open 4 puppet accounts to like your own posts about the *Slavic lineage* *I-Y3120* being ancient Albanian and that people from Berat are supposedly 6'3 tall people, didn't you?


I dont have time for that nonsense that you pull off, as you can see most of my posts dont have likes because people cant handle the truth. And no one said anything about 6 foot 3, most albanians are too poor to get that sort of average height

What is ancient albanian exactly? Arbereshe had 10%+ i2a. I2a people gave ancient albanians blue eyes/light hair and lowered frequency of darker features from j1/j2a/e-m123 that the romans brought through their legionaries and settling of jews. Do you prefer albanians to look european or middle eastern?

Also not all i2a in albania is s17250 (slavic), some of it is dinaric north

----------


## mount123

> I dont have time for that nonsense that you pull off, as you can see most of my posts dont have likes because people cant handle the truth. And no one said anything about 6 foot 3, most albanians are too poor to get that sort of average height
> What is ancient albanian exactly? Arbereshe had 10%+ i2a. I2a people gave ancient albanians blue eyes/light hair and lowered frequency of darker features from j1/j2a/e-m123 that the romans brought through their legionaries and settling of jews. Do you prefer albanians to look european or middle eastern?
> Also not all i2a in albania is ph908 (slavic), some of it is dinaric north


These are pseudo scientific terms your Slavic paternal line is I-Y3120 which migrated to the Balkans in the early medieval era. This is a Slavic lineage and has nothing to do with the ancient Balkans. Deal with it.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> These are pseudo scientific terms your Slavic paternal line is I-Y3120 which migrated to the Balkans in the early medieval era. This is a Slavic lineage and has nothing to do with the ancient Balkans. Deal with it.


There is no ancient balkans, that is a turkish word so its a new term post 1500s

We will have to wait and see with ancient dna, dinaric north has higher diversity in albania and greece than south slavic countries

----------


## Dushman

> There is no ancient balkans, that is a turkish word so its a new term post 1500s


No way bro! What is a Turkish word doing in the Balkans? Who would have thought?! 

Can you provide a reference for that? While you’re at that, please send me the links of all the books you read. I have some catching up to do.

----------


## Yetos

The word Balkan is of Turkish origin,
they named Aemos mountain as Balkan, after a mountain Balkan Daglary in Turkmenistan,
The previous name was in Greek Aemos, with possible Thracian Saemos.
The wider mountain chain is all under the Istros (Danube) river and East of Dalmatian Alps, (Serbia Bulgaria Greece Severna Makedonia Turkey)
the core mt is Aemos at Bulgaria.

Yet some believe due to Iranic language that term might be of Scythian origin,

----------


## Denis87

Is there anything new and interesting ?

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> More people with mental issues. 
> How is it offensive to state that poverty and therefore malnutrition negatively affects height? 
> Never mind, I’m out of here. No point dealing with laluc Vlachs.


I was the first to point out that communism affected our parents and grandparents height, nice try

Btw your y dna line is more common in vlachs/romanians than mine so technically you have more in common with them than I do

----------


## Dushman

> I was the first to point out that communism affected our parents and grandparents height, nice try
> Btw your y dna line is more common in vlachs/romanians than mine so technically you have more in common with them than I do


Some Vlachs have my Y-DNA, whereas you have the Y-DNA of Slavs. What’s your point? You feel you’re better than me?

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## Fustan

> Btw your y dna line is more common in vlachs/romanians than mine so technically you have more in common with them than I do


Vlachs and Albanians have common ancestry through descending from Proto-Albanians. But you're a slav tho

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## Gedzo

> Vlachs and Albanians have common ancestry through descending from Proto-Albanians. But you're a slav tho


Well you are partly right, Vlach are descendets from all paleobalkan, but like in my case who am Vlach with my halogroup my ancestorts very well could be from proto albanians

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Some Vlachs have my Y-DNA, whereas you have the Y-DNA of Slavs. What’s your point? You feel you’re better than me?


Just pointing out that you have same y dna as a lot of vlachs so you shouldn't be making too much fun of them

Anyway, i dont see my dna as slavic because its also quite rare amongst them and i prefer to associate with western hunter gatherers. So get off my land because my ancestors were here 25,000 years before yours  :Laughing:

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Vlachs and Albanians have common ancestry through descending from Proto-Albanians. But you're a slav tho


What year did proto albanians emerge? Why would vlachs (south eastern europe) descend from proto albanians (western south europe), that makes no sense. You mean they partly descend from paleo south european people

Vlachs also have a lot of j2a which is mostly roman input

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## Dushman

> Just pointing out that you have same y dna as a lot of vlachs so you shouldn't be making too much fun of them
> 
> Anyway, i dont see my dna as slavic because its also quite rare amongst them and i prefer to associate with western hunter gatherers. So get off my land because my ancestors were here 25,000 years before yours


Ok, kid from Berat with Slavic Y-DNA and shortest average height in Europe. We'll leave your European continent because you're very intimidating, especially with your Berati dialect. 

P.s. You still haven't changed your nickname? I already told you it's not grammatically correct in Albanian. You must be an immigrant kid and your parents didn't teach you well the mother tongue.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Ok, kid from Berat with Slavic Y-DNA and shortest average height in Europe. We'll leave your European continent because you're very intimidating, especially with your Berati dialect. 
> P.s. You still haven't changed your nickname? I already told you it's not grammatically correct in Albanian. You must be an immigrant kid and your parents didn't teach you well the mother tongue.


Haha visit berat first then talk to me about their height. I already taught you a lesson from communism but you keep repeating the same nonsense, youve shown how little of a kid you are. Everyone in albania knows that berat dialect is the best

If im an immigrant how is it i know more about albanian history than you do? Youre a lazy embarrasment to the country of my ancestors, go do something useful and help make albania great again

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## Dushman

> Haha visit berat first then talk to me about their height. I already taught you a lesson from communism but you keep repeating the same nonsense, youve shown how little of a kid you are. Everyone in albania knows that berat dialect is the best
> If im an immigrant how is it i know more about albanian history than you do? Youre a lazy embarrasment to the country of my ancestors, go do something useful and help make albania great again


It's because I visited Berat that I know it's the shortest town in Albania. 

Everyone knows that Berat dialect is laughing stock. Nobody can take seriously people from Berat. It's a mixture of childish and womanly talk that cannot pronounce letter 'ë' and extend the 'e' instead: ereeeee noku ca beeeeeeen? ik eeee iiik ti eeee shejtan  :Sick: 

Berat is a little communist town that was favoured by communism unlike North Albania or mountainous regions. You had the best lives under communism unlike us but are genetically short with Asian eyes. 

You should start learning the history of your Slavic ancestors that even named your city Berat, a bastardized version of Belgrade, a Medieval Slavic Bulgarian town.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> It's because I visited Berat that I know it's the shortest town in Albania. 
> Everyone knows that Berat dialect is laughing stock. Nobody can take seriously people from Berat. It's a mixture of childish and womanly talk that cannot pronounce letter 'ë' and extend the 'e' instead: ereeeee noku ca beeeeeeen? ik eeee iiik ti eeee shejtan 
> Berat is a little communist town that was favoured by communism unlike North Albania or mountainous regions. You had the best lives under communism unlike us but are genetically short with Asian eyes. 
> You should start learning the history of your Slavic ancestors that even named your city Berat, a bastardized version of Belgrade, a Medieval Slavic Bulgarian town.


Haha what an idiot, you literally said everything that is opposite to true. You are starting to sound like a muslimut turk or some other hater of albanians

Only in north albania and maybe places like elbasan you will find "asian" eyes. You and your cousins look like noizy and yll limani haha, good thing i look nothing like you - i actually look european unlike you and your "asian" eyes. Bow down and respect my WHG dna  :Laughing: 

Berat has the best looking people because its where my ancestors are from, berat and korce has more blonde people than where you are from and our dialect is the most manly with the strong use of R. Dont forget the arbereshe were from berat

Berat people had the worst lives under communism because they actually cared about it unlike your ancestors who betrayed the law and did whatever they wanted

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## Dushman

> Haha what an idiot, you literally said everything that is opposite to true. You are starting to sound like a muslimut turk or some other hater of albanians
> Only in north albania and maybe places like elbasan you will find "asian" eyes. You and your cousins look like noizy and yll limani haha, good thing i look nothing like you - i actually look european unlike you and your "asian" eyes. Bow down and respect my WHG dna 
> Berat has the best looking people because its where my ancestors are from, berat and korce has more blonde people than where you are from and our dialect is the most manly with the strong use of R. Dont forget the arbereshe were from berat
> Berat people had the worst lives under communism because they actually cared about it unlike your ancestors who betrayed the law and did whatever they wanted


Lots of blonde people where I2a-Din and R1a peaks. Noizy comes from a I2a+R1a heavy area like yours :) 

Uzuni the football player is also from Berat :) Ylli Limani is not North Albanian :) 

You have the least manly dialect. It took one crazy young guy called Altin Dardha to subdue an entire city and lock their women at home because they'd be taken as prostitutes by force while the fathers and brothers just watched and cried. 

And I'm from a Catholic tribe ;)

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Lots of blonde people where I2a-Din and R1a peaks. Noizy comes from a I2a+R1a heavy area like yours :) 
> Uzuni the football player is also from Berat :) Ylli Limani is not North Albanian :) 
> You have the least manly dialect. It took one crazy young guy called Altin Dardha to subdue an entire city and lock their women at home because they'd be taken as prostitutes by force while the fathers and brothers just watched and cried. 
> And I'm from a Catholic tribe ;)


Noizy is from north albania, durres and yll limani is from kosova - they are closely related to your people haha. I dont care about r1a, r1a has nothing to do with WHG

Uzuni is a jevg, romani. You will find them all over albania and south europe - you should already know this unless of course youre not from albania

No one cares about catholics or muslimuts, WHG pre date those crappy religions by 30,000 years. They are new things in europe that came from asia. You cant be here looking at science (genetics) and then also care about catholic when they said things like animals and people have only been on earth for 6 thousand years, but then you have already proven that you are stupid

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## Dushman

> Noizy is from north albania, durres and yll limani is from kosova - they are closely related to your people haha. I dont care about r1a, r1a has nothing to do with WHG
> Uzuni is a jevg, romani. You will find them all over albania and south europe - you should already know this unless of course youre not from albania
> No one cares about catholics or muslimuts, WHG pre date those crappy religions by 30,000 years. They are new things in europe that came from asia. You cant be here looking at science (genetics) and then also care about catholic when they said things like animals and people have only been on earth for 6 thousand years, but then you have already proven that you are stupid


Noizy is from Dibra not Durres. 

Ylli Limani is from Kosovo, which is not North Albania nor Shkodra. 

Uzuni is an ethnic Albanian from Berat. Provide proof that Uzunis are Romani. 

You called me a sh*** Muslim and I told you that I come from an area that is 100% Catholic, I did not start a religious discussion with you. 

The local earliest Europeans that you so much are attached to were very dark compared to modern Europeans. I don't know if you like that fact since you're obsessed with blondes from Berati and Korca. And I know Korca has a fair share of blondes, but Berati? Lol. 

It's those "immigrants" from Asia and Middle East that brought lighter skin, hair, and eyes to Europe. 

P.s. Can you write 1 single sentence without making claims that not only are wrong but are the exact opposite of the truth? It's as if you created an Eupedia account just to belittle people from Berat by becoming a laughing stock on purpose.

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## Jovialis

Both of you have infractions now.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Noizy is from Dibra not Durres. 
> Ylli Limani is from Kosovo, which is not North Albania nor Shkodra. 
> Uzuni is an ethnic Albanian from Berat. Provide proof that Uzunis are Romani. 
> You called me a sh*** Muslim and I told you that I come from an area that is 100% Catholic, I did not start a religious discussion with you. 
> The local earliest Europeans that you so much are attached to were very dark compared to modern Europeans. I don't know if you like that fact since you're obsessed with blondes from Berati and Korca. And I know Korca has a fair share of blondes, but Berati? Lol. 
> It's those "immigrants" from Asia and Middle East that brought lighter skin, hair, and eyes to Europe. 
> P.s. Can you write 1 single sentence without making claims that not only are wrong but are the exact opposite of the truth? It's as if you created an Eupedia account just to belittle people from Berat by becoming a laughing stock on purpose.


On the internet it said he was born in sukth but anyway dibra is still north albania. You think youre better or different to people from dibra who are also north albanians or albanians from kosova? You have very similar dna and you have many people that look "asian" like noizy - its much more rare phenotype in berat. I mentioned yll limani but i should also have mentioned capital t who looks even more "asian", another singer from kosova. Also elseid hysaj from shkoder looks "asian" since you want to keep bringing up that nonsense

Everyone was dark skinned 20,000+ years ago but WHG had blue eyes and were in europe first and are still here today. Regions with most WHG autosomnal today have highest frequency of blue eyes and blonde hair. I1 and i2 are closely related. Your E ancestors came from africa only a few thousand years ago and were much darker skinned than i2 people already in europe not to mention the r1bs and r1a who were lighter skinned than your E ancestors but were still asians, not europeans

Everyone in berat knows uzuni is a jevg, they know his parents - go finally visit berat and ask a few people. So many tourists visit berat yet you refuse to visit and you call yourself albanian

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## Dushman

> On the internet it said he was born in sukth but anyway dibra is still north albania. You think youre better or different to people from dibra who are also north albanians or albanians from kosova? You have very similar dna and you have many people that look "asian" like noizy - its much more rare phenotype in berat. I mentioned yll limani but i should also have mentioned capital t who looks even more "asian", another singer from kosova. Also elseid hysaj from shkoder looks "asian" since you want to keep bringing up that nonsense
> Everyone was dark skinned 20,000+ years ago but WHG had blue eyes and were in europe first and are still here today. Regions with most WHG autosomnal today have highest frequency of blue eyes and blonde hair. I1 and i2 are closely related. Your E ancestors came from africa only a few thousand years ago and were much darker skinned than i2 people already in europe not to mention the r1bs and r1a who were lighter skinned than your E ancestors but were still asians, not europeans
> Everyone in berat knows uzuni is a jevg, they know his parents - go finally visit berat and ask a few people. So many tourists visit berat yet you refuse to visit and you call yourself albanian


When is someone going to ban this guy?

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## TaktikatEMalet

What is the theory/history behind this line? -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC12816/

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## A. Papadimitriou

> What is the theory/history behind this line? -
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC12816/


Imho it can be Trojan (maybe a minor lineage, whatever its origins further back are). Maybe he had ancestors in Cilicia.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Imho it can be Trojan (maybe a minor lineage, whatever its origins further back are). Maybe he had ancestors in Cilicia.


That would be pretty cool, trojans moving north and becoming ancestors of dardanians seems possible due to similar toponoyms. But what makes you say this line exactly is related to the trojans and what other lines do you think they carried alongside this?

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## A. Papadimitriou

> That would be pretty cool, trojans moving north and becoming ancestors of dardanians seems possible due to similar toponoyms. But what makes you say this line exactly is related to the trojans and what other lines do you think they carried alongside this?


The TMRCA? And where it expands? I think people with that subclade may have moved west around 1200BC. Further back in time it _can_ be Semetic related. I believe many would consider it Phoenician. (?)
I think Trojans had J2a-L70? I haven't thought much about it though. I don't know much about haplogroups and I don't really care either.

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## 1337

You see, even Albanians insult each other from village to village, region to region, town to town. Here they are arguing over who is taller. When I was in Albania I didn't see that many tall people. Sure there are some tall ones depending on where they are from, like outside Elbasan, what's weird is that I understood them perfectly compared to some people in the town itself or people from Durres. They were nice people. They might of been from Kosovo with origin, I don't know. They also spoke German unlike many who speak Italian. But many people were certainly not that tall. And I was in Tirana which is like where everyone from the country gathers. I noticed some tall females. 

Holland/Netherlands has by far the tallest people in Europe.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> You see, even Albanians insult each other from village to village, region to region, town to town. Here they are arguing over who is taller. When I was in Albania I didn't see that many tall people. Sure there are some tall ones depending on where they are from, like outside Elbasan, what's weird is that I understood them perfectly compared to some people in the town itself or people from Durres. They were nice people. They might of been from Kosovo with origin, I don't know. They also spoke German unlike many who speak Italian. But many people were certainly not that tall. And I was in Tirana which is like where everyone from the country gathers. I noticed some tall females. 
> Holland/Netherlands has by far the tallest people in Europe.


Tallest people are not from holland, on average tallest are from bosnia, croatia and montenegro -
https://www.mdpi.com/biology/biology...00786-g002.png

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## Denis87

> Just pointing out that you have same y dna as a lot of vlachs so you shouldn't be making too much fun of them





> Anyway, i dont see my dna as slavic because its also quite rare amongst them and i prefer to associate with western hunter gatherers. So get off my land because my ancestors were here 25,000 years before yours




I2a is about 20-23% in Russia and Ukraine and that is about 35 000 000 and 8 000 000 people respectively, then you have Poles with 17 point something % that would be about 6 800 000 people, I wouldn't call that rare. And were did you get idea that Vlachs are related to Albanians ? Even haplogroup E, if you calculate in same manner how many people those % are in Italy, Greece, Russia, Germany you will understand that Albanians are not really worth mentioning except that it peaks amongst them, and that is because of founder effect. It might've as well been another haplogroup that peaked ...

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## TaktikatEMalet

> I2a is about 20-23% in Russia and Ukraine and that is about 35 000 000 and 8 000 000 people respectively, then you have Poles with 17 point something % that would be about 6 800 000 people, I wouldn't call that rare. And were did you get idea that Vlachs are related to Albanians ? Even haplogroup E, if you calculate in same manner how many people those % are in Italy, Greece, Russia, Germany you will understand that Albanians are not really worth mentioning except that it peaks amongst them, and that is because of founder effect. It might've as well been another haplogroup that peaked ...


I2a is never that high in russia, ukraine probably - ukraine also has high diversity of i2a unlike russia.

Can you please share the data with some links? I doubt poles have 17% i2a-l621, ive heard 9% which is only slightly higher than albanians.

"Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia)."

Population figures are irrelevant as you can see america is now 20% african. What is actually important is frequency in the nation as you are far more likely to run into a v13 albanian than a v13 german or russian

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## 1337_

> Tallest people are not from holland, on average tallest are from bosnia, croatia and montenegro -


Not for the whole country as an average.

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## 1337_

> I2a is about 20-23% in Russia and Ukraine and that is about 35 000 000 and 8 000 000 people respectively, then you have Poles with 17 point something % that would be about 6 800 000 people, I wouldn't call that rare.* And were did you get idea that Vlachs are related to Albanians* ? Even haplogroup E, if you calculate in same manner how many people those % are in Italy, Greece, Russia, Germany you will understand that Albanians are not really worth mentioning except that it peaks amongst them, and that is because of founder effect. It might've as well been another haplogroup that peaked ...


We got the ''idea'' from historians and linguists.

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