# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Genghis Khan was part Turk , ancient Turks were white with red hair and green eyes .

## Gurka atla

*Historical fact: Many people don't know genghis khan was half turk
*
We Turks have conquered half of the world and even Genghis Khan was part Turk, he was described with red hair and green eyes which could suggest her mother was at least part Turk ancestry. Genghis Khan father was from Mongol speaking tribe but her mother tribe spoke both Turkic and mongol. Btw I'm not claiming he looked white, that is extremely unlikely anyway based on the fact that Genghis Khan was haplogroup C3 and also any Mongolian with red hair or green eyes always look like a Mongoloid.

Genghis Khan father was Mongoloid but I believe her mother is Eurasian of predominate Mongoloid blood like a Kazakh/Kyrgyz appearance


Modern Mongolian with red hair ( I suspect he looked like these ). All these colored hair Mongoloid are evidence of Turkic admixture




Mongolians with all kinds of eyes and hair color and they are genetically 85% Mongoloid.













Mind you, the original Kyrgyz was both Caucasoid and Eurasian, ancient Kyrgyz was often described as green eyes and red hair but some were described with East Asian features. However Genghis Khan was obviously Mongoloid based on the pictures of red hair green eyes Mongolian you see, especially since the Kyrgyz tribes of Mongolia have records of intermarrying with Mongol tribe long before the time of Genghis Khan which makes me think that Genghis Khan mother would have looked like a modern Kyrgyz rather than the original kyrgyz so like I said is highly unlikely she looked anything like Caucasian.


Modern Kyrgyz look almost no different to his Mongoloid neighbors.

----------


## dodona

'he was described with red hair and green eyes which could suggest her(sic!) mother was at least part Turk ancestry.' his mother and not her mother, boy, as he wasn't a she. Despite that red hair and green eyes clearly are IE traits, the first victims of turks extremely brutality. Turk traits are broad faces, very low, brachycephal skulls, slanted eyes and other traits of a siberian/north asian mixture.

----------


## LeBrok

> Despite that red hair and green eyes clearly are IE traits, the first victims of turks extremely brutality. .


Please stop degrading other ethnicities with extreme statements like this. All our ancestors either celtic, germanic, slavic, Spartans or Alexander's troops behave extremely brutal on many occasions.

----------


## Keegah

> *Historical fact: Many people don't know genghis khan was half turk
> *


Could I get some concrete, irrefutable evidence for this here historical fact bud?

----------


## adamo

I agree with Keegan, what if he was of full mongoloid descent? His y-DNA (C3) is characteristically Mongolian. There may have been a few "rare" N lineages in Turkic groups as is often postulated, but there would not have been any C3 unless there had been Mongol presence, of Ghengis Khan, probably.

----------


## Ike

Sorry, but delete.

I believe = historical fact !?

----------


## Nobody1

Judging by the description of the *Huns* (_Altaic features_) and than of later Turkic peoples like the _Kipchaks_ and _Cumans_;
It is possible that many Indo-Europeans [Scythians/Tocharians] were subjugated further east and _Turkofied_ in the process;

*Prof. Musashi Tachikawa* - Three Mountains and Seven Rivers (2004)
_The newsworthy feature of these corpses is that their physical appearance suggests and DNA analysis demonstrates that they belong to people who have been called by various terms: European, Europoid, Caucasian or Caucasoid. Corpses found after the third century CE are increasingly Mongoloid and Chinese. It has been widely assumed that the language spoken by these mummies before they were mummies was Indo-European. If that is so, their language must have been an early form of Tocharian — the easternmost member of the Indo-European language family — or Indo-Iranian._


This inter-mixture (Caucasoid/Altaic) could explain the elements amongst Turkic (Central Asian) populations;

Uyghur girl from Xinjiang (_Tocharian territory_)

----------


## Gurka atla

> Could I get some concrete, irrefutable evidence for this here historical fact bud?


The evidence is that he had red hair and green eyes. Those were common in some Turkic tribes.

----------


## Gurka atla

> Judging by the description of the *Huns* (_Altaic features_) and than of later Turkic peoples like the _Kipchaks_ and _Cumans_;
> It is possible that many Indo-Europeans [Scythians/Tocharians] were subjugated further east and _Turkofied_ in the process;
> 
> *Prof. Musashi Tachikawa* - Three Mountains and Seven Rivers (2004)
> _The newsworthy feature of these corpses is that their physical appearance suggests and DNA analysis demonstrates that they belong to people who have been called by various terms: European, Europoid, Caucasian or Caucasoid. Corpses found after the third century CE are increasingly Mongoloid and Chinese. It has been widely assumed that the language spoken by these mummies before they were mummies was Indo-European. If that is so, their language must have been an early form of Tocharian — the easternmost member of the Indo-European language family — or Indo-Iranian._
> 
> 
> This inter-mixture (Caucasoid/Altaic) could explain the elements amongst Turkic (Central Asian) populations;
> 
> Uyghur girl from Xinjiang (_Tocharian territory_)


Ancient Uyghurs were Mongoloid tribe as proven from painting and genetics however other TURKIC TRIBES WERE NOT. 

Uyghur prince before the invasion of Tocharian kingdom in modern say Turkistan/Tarim Basin.




Those are pictures of Uyghurs princes they look much more Mongoloid than modern Uyghurs.


And even though some Uyghur DNA are similar to Mongols they have have mostly Siberian Mongoloid DNA.'





Here is the ancestors of Uyghurs


They speak Turkic and call themselves Yugur ( the women in the picture is just a foreigner)

----------


## Gurka atla

> I agree with Keegan, what if he was of full mongoloid descent? His y-DNA (C3) is characteristically Mongolian. There may have been a few "rare" N lineages in Turkic groups as is often postulated, but there would not have been any C3 unless there had been Mongol presence, of Ghengis Khan, probably.


Sorry but DNA does not lie

----------


## adamo

Uygurs have high R1b as well, look guy, I'm talking about Mongolians here not china's uygur tribe.

----------


## adamo

Uygurs have high R1a and R1b from ancient indo-Europeans and tocharians; they where not "proto-Mongolians", they're a mix of East Asian and Caucasian types in Central Asia in westernmost china.

----------


## Gurka atla

> Uygurs have high R1b as well, look guy, I'm talking about Mongolians here not china's uygur tribe.


You're talking about ancient Tocharians, I'm talking about Uyghurs who are Turkic not ancient Tocharian who modern Uyghurs got their R1b and R1a but for you info R1b is rare in many areas of East Turkistan. The pictures I of Uyghurs I showed you dated back in the 8th century.

After the fall of the empire They only migrated to East Turkistan after having conquered Tarim Basin and Tocharians





Uyghurs in Mongolia were described as having black hair and black eyes. Even described their eyes as being very slanty it's only when they invaded East Turkistan ( modern day Tarim Basin) that they were started to describe differently this is because ancient uyghurs with tocharians.

Here again a 8th century painting of Uyghurs princes and princess




Uyghurs also lived in Mongolia, they could mixed with the,




Because you didn't know tha modern Uyghurs today are mixture of Turkic and Uyghur

20.5% had Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)
2.6% had C*(xC1, C3)
7.7% had C3c
2.6% had DE(xE)
12.8% had K*(xNO, P)
2.6% had N1*-LLY22g(xN1a, N1b, N1c)
5.1% had N1c1
5.1% had O3*
5.1% had O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
5.1% had O3a3c1-M117
15.4% had P*(xR1a)


Mongoloid paternal DNA is 32% and Mongoloid maternal DNA is 45%
Caucasoid paternal DNA is 58% and Caucasoid maternal DNA is 55%

Uyghurs are all mixed there is no pure Uyghur. However my point is Uyghurs are Turkic and could have contributed to the red hair genes to Mongolians

----------


## adamo

Stop talking of uygur, start talking about Ghengis khan and his Mongolians, have a good day sir.

----------


## Gurka atla

> Stop talking of uygur, start talking about Ghengis khan and his Mongolians, have a good day sir.


I only talk about Uyghurs because there is relation with GENGHIS KHAN and Mongols. Genghis Khan adopted the Uyghur script for Mongols and Genghis Khan also spoke Turkic languages.

Her mother was part Turkic and could spoken Kyrgyz or Uyghur. Red hair though rare in Uyghurs is not impossible since found occasionally, it's obvious Genghis Khan inherited his red hair from his mother side.

----------


## adamo

And how do you know, for certain, that he was red haired and that his mother was Kyrgyz, as no Mongolian females had red hair? What if this was mere speculation. Ghengis Khan left his mark in Mongolia, Kazakhstan, afghanistan's Hazara people, and he invaded many other areas without greatly changing these region's genetic compositions. Also the Xinjiang region of extreme western china (uygur territory) has quite a lot of hg C3 present, and a more minimal impact in uzbekistan, which also fits a Mongolic "central Asian profile.

----------


## Noman

But we do know for certain that ghengis khan did change face of central asia forever. The biggest and craziest mistake I see people make for looking at the past is just assume it stayed almost the same. Part of this is due to fact most people have so little knowledge of history but I get more surprised that people who do know it fairly well just assume everything is like it was and work backwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a

Take a look at that haplomap for all Rs. Probably can fill in anatolia as R in times of troy and fill in a lot of gaps especially to account for territory lost to the east to ghengis khan etc.

We know the mongols had whole tribes of wives and the genetic similarity of the paternal lines shows a big expansion like that just like for the arabs. I mean, an unbelievably huge expansion. And there's not just ghengis khan, there's also tamerlane, attila the hun, and many others who didn't have quite the same impact but did their part.

So it doesn't take a math genius to say that obviously things were different back then. Turkic tribes were not mongolized at all, just caucasoid (and look how tall and powerful pure turks can be compared to mongols, much like elite highland/celtic warriors). There was also probably way more red hair among mongols and Qs, too, yes.

----------


## Gurka atla

That's exactly what I'm confused with. If Turks were Caucasoid how come the Xiongnu, Gokturks, Seljuks were predominately Mongoloid? 

*For example*

" Well-preserved bodies in Xiongnu and pre-Xiongnu tombs in the Mongolian Republic and southern Siberia show both 'Mongoloid' and 'Caucasian' features[60] but are predominantly Mongoloid with some admixture of European physical stock, nonetheless the Xiongnu shared many cultural traits with their Indo-European neighbors, such as horse racing, sword worship.[61] Analysis of skeletal remains from sites attributed to the Xiongnu provides an identification of dolichocephalic Mongoloid, ethnically distinct from neighboring populations in present-day Mongolia.[62] Russian and Chinese anthropological and craniofacial studies show that the Xiongnu were physically very heterogenous, with six different population clusters showing different degrees of Mongoloid and Caucasoid physical traits. These clusters point to significant cross-regional migrations (both east to west and west to east) that likely started in the Neolithic period and continued to the medieval/Mongolian period.[63] "



While Turks like Kypchaks who dominated caucasus and eastern europe were predominately Caucasoid

*For example
*
" Anthropologist SA Pletnev studied a group of burials of Kipchaks in Volga region and found them to have Caucasoid features with some admixture of Mongoloid traits, with physical characteristics such as flat face and distinctly protruding nose.[4] "

----------


## Ike

Maybe Caucasoid Turks went plundering on the east, and that's where they picked up some Mongolian traits.

----------


## Gurka atla

> Maybe Caucasoid Turks went plundering on the east, and that's where they picked up some Mongolian traits.


Well it's hard to say. Original Central Asia used to be Caucasoid people but after Turkic invasion about 10% of Central Asian people became Mongoloid and part Mongoloid. I think some Turk tribes were Mongoloid origin because Turks were described like completely different to other ones


I'm honestly extremely confused to be honest.

----------


## Ike

> Well it's hard to say. Original Central Asia used to be Caucasoid people but after Turkic invasion about 10% of Central Asian people became Mongoloid and part Mongoloid. I think some Turk tribes were Mongoloid origin because Turks were described like completely different to other ones
> 
> I'm honestly extremely confused to be honest.


That would mean that original Turks imposed their language and identity (and party genetics) to some Caucasian tribes, that became more Turkic than them?

----------


## Templar

> That's exactly what I'm confused with. If Turks were Caucasoid how come the Xiongnu, Gokturks, Seljuks were predominately Mongoloid?


That's the thing, the original ones probably weren't Caucasoid. Central Asia was originally Caucasoid, and then it became more and more Mongoloid due to Turkic and Mongol invasions. It might not have been very densely populated at the time when Turkic people first arrived there (due to constant Indo-European migrations out of Central Asia towards Europe, the Middle East, and India), which would have allowed for easy conquest.

----------


## Noman

> Maybe Caucasoid Turks went plundering on the east, and that's where they picked up some Mongolian traits.


I am pretty sure this is the case. Remember it's been over thousands of years.

----------


## Gurka atla

> That would mean that original Turks imposed their language and identity (and party genetics) to some Caucasian tribes, that became more Turkic than them?



According to Russian and Kazakh anthropologists

1. Central Asia used to be inhabited by Caucasoid Iranic people.

2. Turkic invasion changed 10% of Central Asian demographic, 10% being Mongoloid and part Mongoloid. It was stronger in Kazakhstan.

3. Mongol invasion change Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan demographic

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index.p...d=4:1&Itemid=4

----------


## toyomotor

Nice Try, I'd like to see the scientific evidence of this.

----------


## LeBrok

> Nice Try, I'd like to see the scientific evidence of this.


Next time quote someone or mention name of a poster, otherwise nobody knows who you're talking to.

----------


## MOESAN

these Türks are a very productive thema of speculations, I'm afraid - 
what we seem knowing is their first 'cradle' was far more remote in the East, in central Siberia

red hairs and light eyes are AN EXCEPTION among Mongols and even among asian Turkish tribes except some noticeable small populations - the slightly lightest turkic speaking populations of today are all of them populations where genuine Turks intruded among I-E (or other: finnic, ugric?) language - apparently 2000 BC they were signaled by Chineses between Bajkal-Balkach lakes - first written traces: about 732/735 AC (according to Wikipedia) i the Orkhon in Mongolia
where is the very precise cradle of turkic languages??? hard to say, surely not too westernly in Asia... I think firstly mongoloid for phenotypes - but languages were transmitted or abandoned, sometimes by force -
it is boring to read always speaking of these blond, red , "blue" exceptionnal reliques of "true old tribes" in countries far from Europe, or of 'black' Vikings - it seems "making the buzz" and pushing the weight on some 0,5% or 1,0% of some "mysterious authentic ancient" populations is the new way of making forum science?
no offense to anybody

----------


## toyomotor

*MOESAN*, where is the evidence that Ghengis Khan has red hair and green eyes. His mother, Hoelen, was a member of the Olkhunut Tribe (Mongolian) and his father was Yesugai of the Khamag Mongol Confederation. His father was Bargan Baghutur, son of Khabul Khan who was grandson of Khaidu. There is no mention, that I can find, of a Turkish wife for any of these great men. There is mention of red haired, green eyed people living in the Tarim Basin, but that's a different era.

----------


## intorg

Uyghurs in the ancient timea were actually the colonies of "Atlantis". The people living in the region were much more different than modern times. Following the "Great Migration" only remnants of the ancient Uyghurs and Turanians could be seen today in those areas. 

http://anunnaki-sumerians.blogspot.com/

----------


## Icebreaker

Cengiz was a Mongol.Timur Lenk was a heavily Turkified Mongol.

----------


## toyomotor

> *MOESAN*, where is the evidence that Ghengis Khan has red hair and green eyes. His mother, Hoelen, was a member of the Olkhunut Tribe (Mongolian) and his father was Yesugai of the Khamag Mongol Confederation. His father was Bargan Baghutur, son of Khabul Khan who was grandson of Khaidu. There is no mention, that I can find, of a Turkish wife for any of these great men. There is mention of red haired, green eyed people living in the Tarim Basin, but that's a different era.


Further to the above, paintings of Genghis Khan show him to be phenotypically Mongol with dark hair and brown eyes.

----------


## Aberdeen

There is a book called "A Secret History of the Mongols" that was written by a Mongol about the life of Genghis Khan shortly after his death, although the oldest surviving copies are Chinese translations. Genghis Khan was described as having red hair and green eyes, and his wife Borte was described as having grey eyes, which is curious, considering their ethnicity. They may have both had some European ancestry. However, the author of that book didn't seem to think that was particularly significant, other than the fact that Genghis Khan was kind of unique among his people. It's been a while since I read the book, but I think it mentioned that his green eyes intimidated some people.

Paintings of Genghis Khan would have depicted him as looking very Chinese, regardless of what he actually looked like. China was the jewel in the crown of his empire, and Genghis and his successors adopted a lot of Chinese customs and tried to fit in with the Chinese, according to A Secret History of the Mongols. However, at the same time, Genghis Khan was depicted as remaining very Mongol in his thinking, maintaining his power over the Mongols with the help of his favorite shamans, and being rumoured to be a great shaman himself. In fact, the book indicates that his only rival for power while he was alive was his most powerful shaman, who Genghis ambushed and murdered when he came to see the man as a threat.

----------


## toyomotor

*Aberdeen*: Not wishing to seem argumentative, but I think you'll find that it wasn't Genghis so pro-Chinese customs, but Ogedei who built Karakorum on Chinese lines and who introduced a lot of Chinese culture to the Mongol nation. Karakorum was the first city the Mongols ever built.

----------


## Aberdeen

> *Aberdeen*: Not wishing to seem argumentative, but I think you'll find that it wasn't Genghis so pro-Chinese customs, but Ogedei who built Karakorum on Chinese lines and who introduced a lot of Chinese culture to the Mongol nation. Karakorum was the first city the Mongols ever built.


I don't understand, toyomotor - why don't you want to seem argumentative? I thought that was one of the purposes of this forum? LOL.

You may be right about the extent of Genghis Khan's involvement in Chinese culture - my comments were solely on memory I can't find A Secret History of the Mongols in my library. Perhaps I lent it to someone. And although I suspect that any painting of Genghis Khan that was created for public viewing in China would tell us more about Chinese cultural values than about the actual appearance of Genghis Khan, that could be just another one of my crazy theories.

----------


## mihaitzateo

Blue eyes are not a sign of European ancestry.
Check this post,there are Altaian Khazakhs that also have blue eyes and their paternal lines are having very few European lines.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ltaian-Kazakhs
So even if Genghis Khan was blue eyed and half turk,what does it matter?
He was a savage which troops killed civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan
"He came to power by uniting many of the nomadic tribes of northeast Asia. After founding the Mongol Empire and being proclaimed "Genghis Khan," he started the Mongol invasions that resulted in the conquest of most of Eurasia. These included raids or invasions of the Kara-Khitan Khanate, Caucasus, Khwarezmid Empire, Western Xia and Jin dynasties. These campaigns were often accompanied by wholesale massacres of the civilian populations – especially in the Khwarezmian controlled lands. By the end of his life, the Mongol Empire occupied a substantial portion of Central Asia and China."
EDIT:
I think most Europeans are brown eyed and most Turkic speaking people are also brown eyed.
However,this does not make Turkic people Europeans,neither Europeans Turkic.
There are some very easy to spot traits that separate Europeans from Mongoloid Turks,one of them being the presence of Epicanthic fold at Turkic people and the fact Europeans do not have it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold
If some people from Finland,but very few,got Epicanthic folds,that is from mixing with Siberians.
And sure there another traits,like Turkic people are much lower at tallness and so on.
So I do not understand what are you trying to say in this thread,cause to me is just a non-interesting pure non-sense.
From my point of view Genghis Khan might have been even light blonde with blue eyes,he was still an idiot unhuman person,not matter the color of his eyes and hair.

----------


## Alan

may I remind you people that not long before Ghenghis Khan there were people in Mongolia known as Scythians, from which the mongols adopted most of their horse fighting techniques.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> may I remind you people that not long before Ghenghis Khan there were people in Mongolia known as Scythians, from which the mongols adopted most of their horse fighting techniques.


And Scythians were blonde and blue eyed,most of them.
So is possible that Mongolians mixed with Scythians.
No idea if Scythians were mostly Europeans or not.
What I think is that when Genghis Khan appeared and before,the climate was much colder than it is now and the amount of sunshine was also much less ,than it is now.
So I think blue eyes are possible to appear from brown eyes,after some mutation(s) triggered by cold and lack of sunshine.
But this/these mutation/s does not make you European.
For example Ket people,who aren't looking at all Europeans and are not Europeans either,by genetic testing,being closed to Tibetans,have plenty of blue eyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people
I think at Siberian and Central Asian people,blue eyes are quite present.

----------


## Gurka atla

> may I remind you people that not long before Ghenghis Khan there were people in Mongolia known as Scythians, from which the mongols adopted most of their horse fighting techniques.


I think they adopted from the Xiongnu.... who were a mix race people. The Xiongnu were predominately Turkic Mongoloid with some Indo-European admixture.

It's amazing how the Xiongnu had surpassed the Scythians, Iranic, and other Caucasian people. The Xiongnu were predominately Mongoloid race and they did ruled Caucasian people related (with Scythians) for a long time.

----------


## MOESAN

> I think they adopted from the Xiongnu.... who were a mix race people. The Xiongnu were predominately Turkic Mongoloid with some Indo-European admixture.
> 
> It's amazing how the Xiongnu had surpassed the Scythians, Iranic, and other Caucasian people. The Xiongnu were predominately Mongoloid race and they did ruled Caucasian people related (with Scythians) for a long time.



hum...
I do not change my thought that first genuine Mongols of Altaic regions were mostly 'mongoloid' (physical type) even if it is proved contacts between 'europoids' (AND NOT EUROPEAN, do notice!) and 'mongoloids' had taken place around Altaic at already ancient times - 
a survey about KAZAKHSTAN ancient population found an 'europoid' population between Neolithic and first metals, and since Iron Age a growing 'mongoloid' influence, firstly surely (mt DNA) mediated by wives - as History ran, the 'mongoloid' element grew too, this time with males and females, and turkic language - but in North, Turcs had already conatcts with Ougrians who were far to be pure 'mongolids' and with Indo-Europeans overwhelmingly 'europoids' -
as a whole, every time you speak about blond hairs and blue ayes, you find 'caucasian' (europoid) ancestry, except in Australia aborigenes (no blue eye, I'm not sure) - 
no serious survey had found a noticeable amount of blue eyes among asiatic Turkic populations, even mostly 'europoid' as in Turkmenistan, less than among the mediterranean Europeans - the only exception could be the Uygurs, we are almost sure they are a mixt of genuine Turks and Iranain steppic population - 
GENGIS KHAN, as a lot of "noble" persons, had maybe a comlicated genealogy (look at the princes lignages of Arabia or Near-East were Arab elite took European wives most than a generation)... Attila, whatever his aspect (here I agree we cannot rely on ancient descriptions, overromanticized, married (one time) an European noble woman -
keep in mind, after two generations crossings, the traits of the different lignages can intermix to becom inextricable, so blue eye with mongolic eyefold does signify nothing concerning a primitive type...
to study an at least basic physical anthropology and genetics handbook is of interest

have a good night

----------


## MOESAN

orry, my last remark concersn everybody, and I did here a general answerd

----------

