# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Ukraine's genetics

## OlehS

Hello to all forum members!

As a newbie, would be grateful for your advice for links to useful info and your personal opinions about genetic history of present and historic populations of modern Ukraine.
From what I knew before, and also looking through different threads on this forum, it seems to be very complicated, especially taking into account that its south and east were a crossroad of numerous population movements that may have left their genetic legacy. Among the questions that interest me is what genetic differences can be seen nowadays between Western and Central parts of the country, what is the origin of Carpathian populations (boikos, gutsuls, lemkos etc.) in relation to central & northern populations. However, I am not sure there was sufficient sampling of Y and mDNA to know about such regional differences. 
Would be grateful for sharing your thoughts.

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## Dorianfinder

Hi OlehS and welcome to the forum. 

Ukraine encompasses a vast area and this in a region where very few commercial clients have had their ydna tested. I am not going to list the frequencies I am going to post a distribution map of haplogroups R1a & Q. These two haplogroups combine to form an interesting story. Maybe when I have more time I will elaborate on possible theories on the distributions below.

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## Bodin

> Hello to all forum members!
> 
> As a newbie, would be grateful for your advice for links to useful info and your personal opinions about genetic history of present and historic populations of modern Ukraine.
> From what I knew before, and also looking through different threads on this forum, it seems to be very complicated, especially taking into account that its south and east were a crossroad of numerous population movements that may have left their genetic legacy. Among the questions that interest me is what genetic differences can be seen nowadays between Western and Central parts of the country, what is the origin of Carpathian populations (boikos, gutsuls, lemkos etc.) in relation to central & northern populations. However, I am not sure there was sufficient sampling of Y and mDNA to know about such regional differences. 
> Would be grateful for sharing your thoughts.


Byzantine patriarch Nicophorus writes that parts of Serbs , Croats ans Caranthanians ( Slovenias ) left Balkans infront of Frankish atacks in IX century and settled in Carpathians in Ukraine . They descendants would be Lemkos , Boiki ,... They all have high I2a1b Din just like Balkans populations . Other name for Boiki is Rusini , and they land was called Red Ruthenia - and Serbian Medieval state was called Raška by Byzantine city Arsa / Ras which was capitol of it . Also in Carpathians from IX century to XIV century especialy in Lviv aeria there was found lot of hill forts atributed to White Croats , who also lived in Poland .

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## OlehS

[QUOTE=[B]Dorianfinder[/B];380806]Hi OlehS and welcome to the forum. 

Ukraine encompasses a vast area and this in a region where very few commercial clients have had their ydna tested. I am not going to list the frequencies I am going to post a distribution map of haplogroups R1a & Q. These two haplogroups combine to form an interesting story. Maybe when I have more time I will elaborate on possible theories on the distributions below. 

Thanks and looks very interesting indeed! Looking forward on your further elaborations!
However, if haplogroups data come from citydwellers, I would expect to get a confusing and scewed data, due to their cosmopolitan population. Any data from willagers from different regions?

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## OlehS

*Bodin,*
Thanks for the comments. Yes, from what I know, White Croats were in the region (I actually live in Lviv) but whether settled or just transiently, it is still subject of the debate. With regard of ukrainian Carpathian population (gutsuls in Ukrainian), I would expect them to have a fraction of ancestry yet from pre-IE times. Their customs and appearance (superficially) kind of are suggestive of this hypothesis. It is possible that mountainous population experienced less gene flow that their neighbours on planes. However, I suspect nobody conducted any research on it.
With regard to a core population of Ukraine (Center-West) , there are hypotheses of some ancestry coming from Trypill'a (Tripolye) population, very probably from Scythians (their northern settlers), maybe Antes, who neighbored to the south, and Sarmatians who also were in the area. Anybody could professionally comment on this?

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## razor

Hi Oleh! I also am interested in Ukraine's current and historical genetics. There seems to be precious little published about this, which is rather strange, given this area's significance. Have you had your DNA tested? My parents are from Halychyna (father from Kolomyja, mother from Lviv and Shchyrets). My own DNA results seem in line with the meager available info. Paternal: I2a Maternal: U5a1b3. Coupled to extant documents these lines go back to the mid-18th c. Is there any scientific DNA research being done in Ukraine re ancient DNA? Any news about Scythian or Sarmatian kurgan burials being analyzed? Or the (admittedly rare) Trypilian inhumations?

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## OlehS

> Is there any scientific DNA reaearch being done in Ukraine re ancient DNA? Any news about Scythian or Sarmatian kurgan burials being analyzed? Or the (admittedly rare) Trypilian inhumations?


*Razor,*
Thanks for the info.
Have to say that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no current project in Ukraine on testing ancient DNA from different time peroids, or in current population either. It is a pity, taking into account how much we could learn from such a project. I would be glad to bring up this point to scientists interested in paleogenetics.
P.S. I have no idea what my DNA carries as such analysis is not yet available here.

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## razor

Hi Dorianfinder,
I also look forward to your theories (and thank you very much for your most useful caveats re "full genome analysis" on another thread!). It is truly a pity (I fully concur with Oleh) that so little DNA work has been done in Ukraine. For instance, there is an interesting burial ground on the middle Dnister (I forget the name for the moment, but it is dated as nearly co-temporaneous to the well-known Usatovo culture) where archaeologists detected the existence of exogamic practices between this group of Late Trypilians and steppe peoples: the adoption of inhumation by a large Late Trypilian group is itself interesting. Apparently skeletal analysis showed that the males were all "gracile mediterranean" in type, and the females "robust Europoid" from the steppes (with corded ware to boot!). It would be fascinating to have a team as effective as the one which analyzed the Catalonians of the same period put to work here!
As for Q, we'll wait for your convenience. And thanks again.

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## Bodin

> *Bodin,*
> Thanks for the comments. Yes, from what I know, White Croats were in the region (I actually live in Lviv) but whether settled or just transiently, it is still subject of the debate. With regard of ukrainian Carpathian population (gutsuls in Ukrainian), I would expect them to have a fraction of ancestry yet from pre-IE times. Their customs and appearance (superficially) kind of are suggestive of this hypothesis. It is possible that mountainous population experienced less gene flow that their neighbours on planes. However, I suspect nobody conducted any research on it.
> With regard to a core population of Ukraine (Center-West) , there are hypotheses of some ancestry coming from Trypill'a (Tripolye) population, very probably from Scythians (their northern settlers), maybe Antes, who neighbored to the south, and Sarmatians who also were in the area. Anybody could professionally comment on this?


Thanks for answering , do you know your Ydna haplogroup?
I found this articles on Net about White Croats in Ukraine , and thought you would be interested:
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-3829...o-ukraine.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia
I believe Scythian and Sarmathians ( including Antae )were reaćy great in Ukraine - my oppinion is that main carriors of I2a1b ( old I2a2) were Sarmathians

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## Bodin

About Q and R1a , I wouldnt be suprised if 10-15% of eastern European R1a is not Slavic , but Altaic (Turkic) -Huns , parts of Scythians ,Avars , Pechenezi , Uzi , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Khazars , Sabiri , Saraguri , Kumani/Polovci , Mongols/ Tatars , parts of Bulgars ,
... There is also some Altaic R1a in Scandinavia , also conected with Q .

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## OlehS

> Thanks for answering , do you know your Ydna haplogroup?
> I found this articles on Net about White Croats in Ukraine , and thought you would be interested:
> 
> I believe Scythian and Sarmathians ( including Antae )were reaćy great in Ukraine - my oppinion is that main carriors of I2a1b ( old I2a2) were Sarmathians


*Bodin,* Thanks for the interesting links! 
I agree with your opinion on Sarmathians but extensive dna sampling of Ukrainian population is needed to prove this. By the way, how can I , or others here in Ukraine, check their hg-s if interested?

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## razor

Have a look at footnote 20 of the long English Wikipedia article on haplogroup R1b. It refers to a downloadable (pdf) 2006 Munich Univ. dissertation by Varzari which analyzes, in very interesting fashion, the Ukrainian haplogroups of the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border on the Dnister.

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## Bodin

> *Bodin,* Thanks for the interesting links! 
> I agree with your opinion on Sarmathians but extensive dna sampling of Ukrainian population is needed to prove this. By the way, how can I , or others here in Ukraine, check their hg-s if interested?


Yes there is need of intensive DNA sampling all over East and Central Europe , even Scandinavia , West Europe and North America are bether covered , but there is still a lot of work , genetic is very young and still seak it place in historic science.
I send my mouth swap to IGENEA in Switzerland ( they send kit on order) ,they charged me about 500 euros for both YDNA and mthDNA tests ( just Google IGENEA and you will find how to do it )

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## OlehS

> Have a look at footnote 20 of the long English Wikipedia article on haplogroup R1b. It refers to a downloadable (pdf) 2006 Munich Univ. dissertation by Varzari which analyzes, in very interesting fashion, the Ukrainian haplogroups of the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border on the Dnister.


*Razor,
*
Thanks a lot, very interesting study with quite unexpected results. 
We need more like this.

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## OlehS

> About Q and R1a , I wouldnt be suprised if 10-15% of eastern European R1a is not Slavic , but Altaic (Turkic) -Huns , parts of Scythians ,Avars , Pechenezi , Uzi , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Khazars , Sabiri , Saraguri , Kumani/Polovci , Mongols/ Tatars , parts of Bulgars ,
> ... There is also some Altaic R1a in Scandinavia , also conected with Q .


*Bodin,*

A question on R1a distribution:
Looking at the map above on *Dorianfinder* post, how one can explain an apparent decrease in R1a frequency in the region between Ukraine and European Russia: insufficient sampling, other reasons? I personally find it a bit suspicious.

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## Dorianfinder

The genetic diversity throughout the region is both regional-specific and tells us of population movements that took place along two major corridors, namely the North-South (I1, Q, N1c1) and the Balkanic passage that also includes the Black Sea west coast. The best way to differentiate between all the noise and diversity is to first look at the genetic admixtures prevalent among the Varangians/Goths from East Scandinavia. HG I seems to split R1a along the Finno-Scandinavian route through to the Black Sea coast. In this swathe one finds appreciably lower levels of R1a and no similar depreciation in HG Q. 

Major Varangian trade-route in red is depicted below, also known as the Volga trade-route.

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## razor

> The genetic diversity throughout the region is both regional-specific and tells us of population movements that took place along two major corridors, namely the North-South (I1, Q, N1c1) and the East-Tatar/Caucasus passage. The best way to differentiate between all the noise and diversity is to first look at the genetic admixtures prevalent among the Varangians/Goths from East Scandinavia. HG I seems to split R1a along the Finno-Scandinavian route through to the Black Sea coast. In this swathe one finds appreciably lower levels of R1a and no similar depreciation in HG Q. 
> 
> Major Varangian trade-route in red is depicted below, also known as the Volga trade-route.


Actually this explanation doesn't quite work. In the first place there were two major Varangian trade routes: the Volga trade route and the Dnipro trade route (which actually became more important as of the later 10th century): it is in purple on the map. But in either case Oleh's query remains. Why is there a fluctuation on the R1a map from 50+ to 40+ to 50+ in a northeasterly direction? The I1 map does not explain this (the 5% blob is not in the queried area). Perhaps inadequate sampling is the answer?

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## Dorianfinder

@ razor

I was referring to the top right-hand corner of the map. The gradual decrease from 15% to 5% is suggestive of settlement patterns along the northern extremity of the Volga trade-route.

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## razor

OK. But that doesn't deal with the issue of the 50-40-50 discontinuity on the R1a map, since the dip and rise occurs in an area where I1 is at 1%, much below the 15 to 5 I1 dip. And the shifts in the I2 map or N map don't fully explain it either (?). But is it really such a big issue? There could be a myriad of reasons for this mini-dip and rise. What difference does it really make if you move from 55% R1a to 47% R1a to 52% R1a? It's pretty solid R1a territory.

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## Dorianfinder

> OK. But that doesn't deal with the issue of the 50-40-50 discontinuity on the R1a map, since the dip and rise occurs in an area where I1 is at 1%, much below the 15 to 5 I1 dip. And the shifts in the I2 map or N map don't fully explain it either (?). But is it really such a big issue? There could be a myriad of reasons for this mini-dip and rise. What difference does it really make if you move from 55% R1a to 47% R1a to 52% R1a? It's pretty solid R1a territory.


You can relax, I was only answering OlehS in #15. The Volga trade-route has been a through-fare since links between Scandinavia and the Near East were formed millenia ago. 

The intrusion of HG I into the Volga trade-route is suggestive, nothing more than that. The intrusion of N1c1 from East Scandinavia is also suggestive of diffusion but not on the same scale as HG I. R1a is high in Ukraine no matter where you look, the decrease however small is suggestive as it is positioned along the Volga trade-route.

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## razor

> You can relax, I was only answering OlehS in #15.
> 
> I'm always relaxed (:=)))
> 
> The Volga trade-route has been a through-fare since links between Scandinavia and the Near East were formed millenia ago.
> 
> Certainly.
> 
> The intrusion of HG I into the Volga trade-route is suggestive, nothing more than that.
> ...


Since I belong to the I2a tribe (with a U5a1 motherline), our R1a assimilants are only of peripheral interest (:=)))

Carry on, and thanks again.

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## Bodin

> *Bodin,*
> 
> A question on R1a distribution:
> Looking at the map above on *Dorianfinder* post, how one can explain an apparent decrease in R1a frequency in the region between Ukraine and European Russia: insufficient sampling, other reasons? I personally find it a bit suspicious.


I am not realy shore why this decrease hapened . One of possible explanations could be : if Scythians were R1a and Sarmathians I2a1b , than since border betwen Scythia and Sarmathia ( VII - II century BC) was on Don river ( egzacly place where R1a fall from 50% to 40%)and first Sarmathian intrusion was in that region , they probably killed more Scythians ( R1a ) than in other places , also R1a would start retreating toward west infront of Sarmathian atacks . This is one explanation not necesarly true .Thanks for answering

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## Bodin

> Since I belong to the I2a tribe (with a U5a1 motherline), our R1a assimilants are only of peripheral interest (:=)))
> 
> Carry on, and thanks again.


What to say except haill Sarmathian brother :)

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## razor

> What to say except haill Sarmathian brother :)


Let's compare our Y-DNA results, for interest's sake. According to the newer numbers, mine is I2a1b1 (N). The N stands for Ken Nortved's distinction between "North" (=N) and "South" (of the Danube) groups. The difference (it seems) is in two STR markers. At DYS448, N has a value of 20, and S a value of 19. At DYS449, N has a value of 32, and S has 30. Both groups broke off from a parent group, acc. to Nortvedt, about 2,800 years ago. But N and S stand for current locations I think (and not necessarily in a comprehensive way, since he says that the "Russian" group (which includes Belarus and the Baltic states) is primarily S, not N.

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## Bodin

Mine is I2a1b1 (S), but there is also lot of I2a1b1(N) in Balkans , and that is south of Danube. My mthDNA is X2 , and it is considered that had come from Caucasus . Thank for answering

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## OlehS

> I am not realy shore why this decrease hapened . One of possible explanations could be : if Scythians were R1a and Sarmathians I2a1b , than since border betwen Scythia and Sarmathia ( VII - II century BC) was on Don river ( egzacly place where R1a fall from 50% to 40%)and first Sarmathian intrusion was in that region , they probably killed more Scythians ( R1a ) than in other places , also R1a would start retreating toward west infront of Sarmathian atacks . This is one explanation not necesarly true .Thanks for answering


Thanks to all for interesting commentsI With regard to *Bodin's* quote above, are there any known similarity with distribution of mtDNA HGs?
The importnat point also, when we are talking about present populations, is that the region of Black Sea and Azov Sea steppes was repeatedly and almost totally repopulated, whereaz populations of Central Ukraine and Central Russia (Moscow region) seem to be more informative. And, for clearer picture, one should look primarily at markers from country-folks and not from the cities.

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## razor

A good resource for following the research on Mt DNA is http://www.phylotree.org It not only gives you a constantly updated all-human Mt DNA haplogroup tree, but also has a section listing the articles from which it got its information, most of which are accessible on line for double checking. You are quite right in your final sentence. The company which tested both my ancestral markers DNA, a Canada-based outfit at http://www.genebase.com has clickable info on its home page (you look for "DNA Ancestry" and scroll down to "Indigenous DNA": they list 152 available tested populations. But you have to do your own verifying research. AFAIK there's nothing yet for Ukraine. I don't know where Eupedia got its Ukraine Mt DNA numbers [the "by country section"]. Perhaps someone else (Dorianfinder?) might inform us.

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## Knovas

New autosomal data is available thanks to the Yunusbayev et al. (2011) samples. You can check the Ukranians_Y average here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0

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## razor

Thanks for this, Knovas! Clicking further, I found the mention of new ancient DNA analysis in a recent thesis (not available until August 2012), based on material from southeastern Ukraine (the Dnipro-Donetsk and an unnamed Bronze age kurgan culture) which demonstrates that the population's Mt DNA may still have been largely Eurasian ca. 5000/2000 BCE): haplotype C in all three Bronze Age individuals, and in 3 of the 13 Dnipro Donetsk skeletons. I've posted this information in the Mt DNA section of our forum. We have no male ancestry info yet.

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## Knovas

This is very old razor, don't know if much Ukranians belong to C subclades today. It's clear some Northeast Asian + Southeast Asian is reported between them, but this might be due to haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).

Quite usual to find "surprises" when we deal with ancient DNA found in Europe, I don't think this is much relevant today. However, it's interesting.

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## razor

> This is very old razor, don't know if much Ukranians belong to C subclades today. It's clear some Northeast Asian + Southeast Asian is reported between them, but this might be due to haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).
> 
> Quite usual to find "surprises" when we deal with ancient DNA found in Europe, I don't think this is much relevant today. However, it's interesting.


Would you know the source of the figures used in Eupedia's "mtDNA by country" table on the home page? There's an "Other" segment for all, which has high figures here and there (the explanation adds that among these could also be C: the "Other" figure for contemporary Ukraine is 6%). One intimation of the 2011 thesis mentioned above is that mt C persisted in Ukraine's steppen population for millenia (apparently the Bronze age individuals were carriers of mutated later versions). Which raises the issue of the time of the changeover etc.) As you say, mostly of historical interest today.

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## sparkey

> Would you know the source of the figures used in Eupedia's "mtDNA by country" table on the home page?


Maciamo keeps an incomplete list of his sources here. I'm not certain which, if any, were used for Ukraine, maybe Maciamo can dig up his reference.

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## OlehS

> A good resource for following the research on Mt DNA is / It not only gives you a constantly updated all-human Mt DNA haplogroup tree, but also has a section listing the articles from which it got its information, most of which are accessible on line for double checking. You are quite right in your final sentence. The company which tested both my ancestral markers DNA, a Canada-based outfit at \ has clickable info on its home page (you look for "DNA Ancestry" and scroll down to "Indigenous DNA": they list 152 available tested populations. But you have to do your own verifying research. AFAIK there's nothing yet for Ukraine. I don't know where Eupedia got its Ukraine Mt DNA numbers [the "by country section"]. Perhaps someone else (Dorianfinder?) might inform us.


*Razor,*
Thanks for this info.
I guess, it is still too expensive for rezidents of Ukraine to make such DNA tests. The only hope is for the diaspora in the USA, Canada, Europe, who can reliably trace their origin to particular regions of Ukraine, as in your case. If there would be interest in this, we could learn more. Do you agree?

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## Goga

According to this study - "_Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat DYS458.2 Non-consensus Alleles Occur Independently in Both Binary Haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405_" - Ukraine has *25%* of R1b. And Russia 21.4%



here is the link: http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

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## Knovas

That's pretty high in comparison with the percents showed in Eupedia. It's curious that, according to the autosomal results, Ukraine has a lot of West European, wich could be linked to R1b.

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## Goga

> That's pretty high in comparison with the percents showed in Eupedia. It's curious that, according to the autosomal results, Ukraine has a lot of West European, wich could be linked to R1b.


Yes, I think the same way!

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## razor

Yes, the figure of 4% in Eupedia seems rather low. This only reinforces the need to do more adequate testing in Ukraine, including its more recent diaspora (as Oleh suggests). As a matter of interest, the results from the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border (a sample of 53 reported by Vazari) is: 18.9% R1b (of which 13.2% are M-269), 41.5% R1a1 (M-17), and 20.8% I2a (mostly Dinarics I would assume). The comparative figure among nearby Moldavians (not from the Ukrainian village) is: 16.7% M-269 (sample size 126) and 13% among Romanians (sample size 54).

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## Shetop

Myres et al 2010 study has better sample size for R1b in Ukraine, and it is divided by subclades (xls): A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

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## Knovas

R1b in Russia is showed higher than here too, and the West European is also quite high. The same could be aplied.

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## LeBrok

> Myres et al 2010 study has better sample size for R1b in Ukraine, and it is divided by subclades (xls): A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe


Not saying that there is a mistake here, but this is not-passworded MS Excel file and everybody can change data in it, and post it again.
In this case we have to be very careful and sure that the source is kosher.

So far it doesn't say that it was modified.
picture004.jpg

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## terranova

Here is some ancient Trypillian DNA analysis (unfortunately only mtDNA)
iansa.eu/papers/IANSA-2010-01-02-nikitin.pdf

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## zanipolo

was'nt the Ukraine the border of the germanic Peucini tribe ( related to the Bastanae germans) . as ptolemy states from Alexandria.

Beyond the montes Bastanaes ( carpathian mountains ) are the Bastanae, beyond them reside the Peucini, beyond them reside the Gottones and beyond them on the baltic sea are the Venedi.

Does germanic people have R1b and I1 or am I too early to state the R1b

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## Shetop

Y-DNA data for Ukrainians (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml) should be updated based on this:




Source: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0135820

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## Maciamo

> Y-DNA data for Ukrainians (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml) should be updated based on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0135820


Thanks ! I hadn't seen that study. I have now incorporated the data in the Y-DNA tables. The biggest change is an increase in I2a1 (from 13% to 20.5%). There are also noticeable decreases in J2 (7% => 4.5%) and N1c (7.5% => 5.5%). The rest is stable within 1%.

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