# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Sardinian Y-DNA Phylogeny per Francalacci et al. 2013

## sparkey

The original paper is here, although it is probably easier to refer to Dienekes' analysis here. The biggest takeaway is this phylogenetic tree (also available at Dieneke's analysis):



When discussing Sardinian settlement during the Neolithic, it's easy to conclude that they were I2a1a dominant, considering that I2a1a is derived from a Paleolithic lineage, it has an earlier TMRCA than most European lineages, and it is found in multiple Neolithic European samples. But this phylogeny does not support that at all, with an obvious founder effect having a more recent expansion than even the Sardinian R1b. Rather, it looks like early Sardinians would have been mainly J2b, J2a, and G2a, with E1b a possibly important minority.

Something less important to most people but exciting to me is that we've finally got a peer reviewed study that tested for I2c! They are well fewer than 1% of the total samples, but it's an indication that I2c frequency extends in trace levels down to Sardinia, which we haven't seen before, and for once we can conclude that this is indeed I2c, and not its cousin, I2b-ADR. Its early splitting point in Sardinia could be an indication that I2c is relatively ancient to the Mediterranean, as opposed to more being more ancient to modern Germany, as I've proposed before.

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## Sennevini

Seems that slowly the structure direct under F is unravelling. That's nice.

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## Maciamo

I don't see the point of analysing the European Y-chromosomal phylogeny from a Sardinian standpoint. That's a bit like looking at the world through the fisheye lens of a peephole. Everything gets distorted. That's why I2a1a looks like the most important lineage in Europe when it is pretty much restricted to Sardinia and Iberia. Why didn't they take samples from strategically chosen locations in Europe so as to increase the resolution of all subclades ? Good sample regions would have been places with high genetic diversity, such as the Latium, Campania, Sicily, Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Switzerland... then throw in Sweden + Finland or Estonia for northern haplogroups (I1 and N).

I wouldn't purchase the article without knowing for sure, but it would really be a shame if the authors didn't at least provide the detailed frequencies for Sardinia. 1200 deep Y-DNA subclades is a great opportunity to determine once and for all what subclades the Vandals carried (see my analysis here), especially the subclades of R1a and R1b, but also the subclades of I1 and I2a2a. Well regionally divided frequencies would also help us see more clearly where the Phoenicians and the Romans settled in Sardinia (or at least where their Y-DNA ended up today). Since the Romans are the only possible candidate who could have brought R1b-U152 to Sardinia (probably the only place in Western Europe that was never settled by any other Italic or Celtic tribe) we could know what subclades of U152 the Romans really carried (L2+, Z36+, Z56+, others ?) since continental Italy is too mixed to tell.

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## Maciamo

I got a copy of the article, but it is disappointingly messy. All I wanted was a frequency table, hopefully divided by regions, but there isn't even one with the total of the 1200 samples. This study is effectively useless to determine the geographic distribution of each haplogroup and subclade within Sardinia.

The paper merely include a numbered list of individuals sorted by haplogroups. I had to calculate the frequencies myself (see table below). As if it wasn't inconvenient enough, they didn't care to mention the SNP's next to the subclade denomination, and deep clades aren't mentioned either. I had to check in the supplementary materials for deep subclades, but the tables are far from being clear.

Haplogroups
Number of samples
Percentage

A1b1b2b
6
0.5%

E1a1
6
0.5%

E1b1b1a1
32
2.6%

E1b1b1b1
70
5.8%

E1b1b1b2
24
2%

F3
7
0.6%

G2a2b
40
3.3%

G2a3
91
7.6%

I1a3a2
2
0.16%

I2a1a
465
38.75%

I2a1b
2
0.16%

I2a2a
10
0.8%

I2c
10
0.8%

J1c
63
5.25%

J2a
74
6.1%

J2b
23
2%

L
7
0.6%

T
27
2.25%

Q1a3c
1
0.01%

R1a1a1
15
1.25%

R1b1a2
185
15.4%

R1b1c
29
2.4%

R2a1
10
0.8%




I am baffled at the great discrepancy between this study of Sardinians and the total of the previous studies I compiled, which had nearly 1100 samples. Previous studies had 13% of G2a against 10.9% here, 8.5% of E1b against 11% here, 2.5% of J1 against 5.2% here, 9.5% of J2 against 8% here, 1% of L+T against 2.8% here, 1% of Q against 0.01% here, 1% if I1 against 0.01% here... That's quite a lot of differences for two huge studies of a relatively sparsely populated island (1.6 million inhabitants). 

If the frequencies can vary by 2 or 3% for most haplogroups between two big studies, how much confidence can we have in regional data with less than 500 samples, let alone less than 100 samples ? Yet, as far as Italy is concerned, only Sardinia, Sicily and Trentino-South Tyrol have over 500 samples if we combine all studies to date. Not even Tuscany ! Yet Italy is one of the best studied countries in the world for Y-DNA. That makes me wonder about the accuracy of the present data for every country. There could be huge changes to come, in the order of 10 to 20% for a single haplogroup in poorly sampled countries.

---

*UPDATE I:* 

I checked the SNP list in the supplementary data and found 128x *R1b-U152* (10.6% of the total). Among them there were 10x *L2* (including 2x *L20*), 13x *Z56* (including 7x *Z144*) and 105x U152*. These should be the Roman subclades I was looking for. Of course it's always possible that all Italic and Alpine Celtic people possessed all subclades of U152, in which case my quest is a deadend. But it rather looks like the Romans belonged to a branch that has not yet been identified and shows up as U152*.

As for other subclades of R1b there are 29x *V88* (2.4%), 10x *M269** (0.8%), 9x *L23** (0.75%), 4x *DF27>Z196>Z209* (including 2x Z216+), 2x *L21>DF13>L513/DF1*, and 2x *U106>Z381* (including 1x Z301>L47>Z9). L23 is the dominant form of R1b in Sardinia. Since the Greeks had a very limited presence on the island, and the Etruscans never settled Sardinia, L23 was surely the other main Roman R1b subclade along with U152. 

*UPDATE II:*

As for the *Vandals*, they surely brought *R1b-U106* (Z381+), but also *R1b-L21* (L513+), which has been found in Sweden (in addition to Germany and the British Isles). *R1b-DF27* (Z209+) is more problematic since it is found in all western Europe, from Sweden to Spain. It could be Vandalic, but just as well be Catalan if the samples came from north-west Sardinia. It's really a shame that such a large-scale study does not provide the geographic location of the samples tested. That could have resolved this question easily.

Both samples of *I1* are listed as I1a3a2, a subclade that isn't listed by ISOGG. I suppose it is a new subclade under I1a3a (L1237). I1a3 is found all over Europe, but interestingly also in Poland, Spain and southern Italy, which could confirm the Vandal connection.

Among the *I2a2a* (M223) individuals there were 6x *L701>L699* (also found in Sicily), 1x *CTS616** and 2x *L1228* (a newly identified subclade splitting just after M223).

Among the 15 *R1a1a* individuals were 11x *Z282* (among which 5x *Z280*, 1x *M458>L1029* and 5x probably *M458>L260*) and 4x *Z93* (including 3x Z94>L342.2>Z2123). The Z2123 is Middle Eastern or Central Asian and could have been brought either by the Phoenicians or the Alans.

The fact that the Vandals stayed in Poland before migrating to the Roman Empire is probably the reason for the elevated R1a (and the fact that it belongs to the Central European Slavic or rather Proto-Slavic branch). It is therefore likely that the two I2a1b-M423 samples are also of Proto-Slavic origin.

Based on this (perhaps not representative) Sardinian snapshot, the Vandals seem to have carried 33% of R1a (11 samples), 30% of I2a2a (10 samples), 24% of R1b (8 samples), 6% of I2a1b (2 samples), and only 6% of I1 (2 samples). 

Another remarkable thing is that I2-M223 is the main Germanic haplogroup, as prevalent as all the I1 and R1b combined. The Vandals are thought to have originated in central or northern Sweden, where I2-M223 is higher than elsewhere in Scandinavia.

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## sparkey

> I don't see the point of analysing the European Y-chromosomal phylogeny from a Sardinian standpoint. That's a bit like looking at the world through the fisheye lens of a peephole. Everything gets distorted. That's why I2a1a looks like the most important lineage in Europe when it is pretty much restricted to Sardinia and Iberia.


True, if you're trying to extract the European history of these haplogroups and their subclades, you'll get totally the wrong picture looking at Sardinia. It makes I2a1a look young and widespread, when in fact it is old and rare. But I think we can get some use out of it anyway. In particular, it can help us determine the genetic history of Sardinia (only) by isolating founder effects. Of course, with the remaining haplogroups, we still need to sort through whether they are diverse because they entered Sardinia early, or because the populations that brought them already had a diverse distribution of that haplogroup.

I'm thinking of J2b in particular--it's usually thought to have had its primary spread in Europe later than J2a, but it looks at least as diverse in Sardinia. Why?




> Why didn't they take samples from strategically chosen locations in Europe so as to increase the resolution of all subclades ?


Research budget?

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## Armatus

For some reason i can't read the whole article. Can someone provide information about the SNPs they tested for I-L160 ? Did they only test L160 or also SNPs below L160. Would be highly interesting to see, if the Sardinians are solely I-PF4190 or have some admixture of I-F1295 or I-PF4088.

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## Sile

> I got a copy of the article, but it is very disappointing. All I wanted was a frequency table, hopefully divided by regions, but there isn't even one with the total of the 1200 samples. Fortunately there is a list of individuals number sorted by haplogroups, so I can get calculate the frequencies myself. As if it wasn't inconvenient enough, they didn't care to mention the SNP's next to the subclade denomination. I'll have to check in the Supplementary Materials.
> 
> Haplogroups
> Number of samples
> Percentage
> 
> A1b1b2b
> 6
> 0.5%
> ...


Where did you get your haplotype numbers from?

this is what I got for R-U152
1204 tested of which
1 x French Basque I2a1a
1 x North Italian I2a1a
1 x Tuscan G2a
1 x Corsican G2a

The remaining comprised of 128 x R-U152
75 x Z192+ = 58.6%
23 x (xL2, Z36, Z56, Z192) = 18.0%
13 x Z56+ = 10.2%
10 x L2+ = 7.8%
7 x Z36+ = 5.5%

seems like the majority was Z192

I think it looks like the Bell Beaker crashed into the Stelae in Sardinia

The Otzi G-L91 was not present, but there was G-L497 in abundance

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## Maciamo

> Where did you get your haplotype numbers from?
> 
> this is what I got for R-U152
> 1204 tested of which
> 1 x French Basque I2a1a
> 1 x North Italian I2a1a
> 1 x Tuscan G2a
> 1 x Corsican G2a
> 
> ...


I mistook while counting. I have now corrected the numbers.

What is Z192 ? I have never heard of it, it is not listed by ISOGG nor FTDNA, and I don't see it in this paper either. I see a buncg of 75x R1b-U152 samples but there is no SNP assigned to them.

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## Sile

> I mistook while counting. I have now corrected the numbers.
> 
> What is Z192 ? I have never heard of it, it is not listed by ISOGG nor FTDNA, and I don't see it in this paper either. I see a buncg of 75x R1b-U152 samples but there is no SNP assigned to them.







new tree - 23 July 2013

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## Maciamo

> new tree - 23 July 2013


Ok, but how did you determine that there were 75x Z192 in the Sardinian data ?

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## brianco

> Ok, but how did you determine that there were 75x Z192 in the Sardinian data ?


Here is a table Richard Rocca put on another forum also discussing this topic, please feel free to join in :)
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...cci-et-al-2013

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## Maciamo

> Here is a table Richard Rocca put on another forum also discussing this topic, please feel free to join in :)
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...cci-et-al-2013


Thanks, that is very useful.

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## brianco

> Thanks, that is very useful.


It is interesting that of the 23 'U152+ L2- Z36- Z56- Z192-' group, there are:

9 with 23407934 C>G
and 3 with 23119461 G>A

Still leaving 11 U152*. Unfortunately the above are not in Geno or available at FTDNA to test. So my Y remains a U152* 'aimlessly' wandering Europe since U152  :Smile:

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## T101

> Among the 15 R1a1a individuals were 11x *Z282* (among which 5x *Z280*), 3x *Z93* (Z94>L342.2>Z2123) and 1x *M458* (L1029+). The Z2123 is Middle Eastern and was probably brought by the Phoenicians. Although there is no typically Germanic subclade, Z282 and L1029 are not exclusively Balto-Slavic and have also been found in Sweden and Germany. If all of it was brought by the Vandals (who else ?), it looks like the Vandals were heavy on R1a. 
> 
> The fact that the Vandals stayed in Poland before migrating to the Roman Empire is probably the reason for the elevated R1a (and the fact that it is so Slavic-looking). It is therefore likely that the two I2a1b-M423 samples are also of Proto-Slavic origin.


Z2123 is very widespread from India to the Bashkirs to Germany. If it does prove to be Middle Eastern in origin I imagine it was probably brought into Sardinia during the Roman or Byzantine Empires. Or if Z2123 originated in the steppe, then the Alans are the likely source along with perhaps the Q1a3c.

It's not really too Slavic looking at all. The Z282 and Z280 are probably remnants from the Pomeranian Culture (650BCE-200BCE) and Lusatian Culture (1300 BCE - 500BCE) which are by most accounts Baltic with strong connections to the Nordic Bronze Age.

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## Maciamo

> Z2123 is very widespread from India to the Bashkirs to Germany. If it does prove to be Middle Eastern in origin I imagine it was probably brought into Sardinia during the Roman or Byzantine Empires. Or if Z2123 originated in the steppe, then the Alans are the likely source along with perhaps the Q1a3c.


Thanks for mentioning the Alans. They had slipped my mind, but they make excellent candidates for the R1a-Z2123 and Q1a3c samples, especially since there was indeed an Alanic minority among the Vandals. I had already explained that here.




> It's not really too Slavic looking at all. The Z282 and Z280 are probably remnants from the Pomeranian Culture (650BCE-200BCE) and Lusatian Culture (1300 BCE - 500BCE) which are by most accounts Baltic with strong connections to the Nordic Bronze Age.


I consider that Proto-Slavic as they descended from the Corded Ware, which was also the culture from which sprang all Balto-Slavic people. Obviously it can be said that Germanic people are partly Proto-Slavic. But I wouldn't call the Lusatian culture Proto-Germanic since it had little if any I1, I2a2a and R1b-S21.

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## polako

The Z2123 in Sardinia is of Arabian origin. It's probably also present in Southern Italy and Sicily.

Alans are a poor explanation for the Z2123 in Sardinia, because Sardinians are one of the few populations in Europe that lack the West Asian genome-wide component. So the Z2123 had to be carried there from its home, which was most likely South Central or West Central Asia, via a less West Asian and more Mediterranean/Middle Eastern source, like Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula and/or East Mediterranean.

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## Maciamo

> The Z2123 in Sardinia is of Arabian origin. It's probably also present in Southern Italy and Sicily.
> 
> Alans are a poor explanation for the Z2123 in Sardinia, because Sardinians are one of the few populations in Europe that lack the West Asian genome-wide component. So the Z2123 had to be carried there from its home, which was most likely South Central or West Central Asia, via a less West Asian and more Mediterranean/Middle Eastern source, like Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula and/or East Mediterranean.


The Arabs never colonised Sardinia. 

There were only 3 R1a-Z2123 samples in Sardinia, i.e. 0.25% of the population. That is consistent with the very minor size of the Alanic contingent, and in good proportion to the 34 samples that could be of Vandalic origin (2.8%).

I suppose that you mean that the Sardinians lack the _East European_ autosomal component, not the West Asian (which according to the Dodecad K=12 admixtures is at 4.6%).

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## Mikewww

> ...
> 2x *L21>DF13>L513/DF1*
> ...
> As for the *Vandals*, they surely brought *R1b-U106* (Z381+), but also *R1b-L21* (L513+), which has been found in Sweden (in addition to Germany and the British Isles).


Thank you Maciamo. I've downloaded the three Supplementary files but haven't figured them out. I would like to find the R1b-L21>DF13>L513+ (aka DF1) individuals and see if I can tell anything as far as further subgrouping. There are some 25 odd clusters under L513 and they have different distributions, although Isles biased no doubt. The "M" cluster has a couple of Germans. The "B2", where I sit, has a Frenchman and a Swede to go with the Irish and the Welsh. We also have Dutch but most of the individuals, by far, are British Isles of some type.

Several of the subgroups are marked by SNPs, including these:
L193, L706.2, L705.2, CTS3087, Z1867, P66, L69, L577

If we could figure out what subgrouping the Sardinian L513/DF1 is, that would be very helpful.

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## Nobody1

> Among the 15 *R1a1a* individuals were 11x *Z282* (among which 5x *Z280*), 3x *Z93* (Z94>L342.2>Z2123) and 1x *M458* (L1029+). The Z2123 is Middle Eastern and was probably brought by the Phoenicians. Although there is no typically Germanic subclade, Z282 and L1029 are not exclusively Balto-Slavic and have also been found in Sweden and Germany. If all of it was brought by the Vandals (who else ?), it looks like the Vandals were heavy on R1a.



Isnt *M458* also a sub-clade of *Z282*;

so shouldnt it be *12*x Z282 [6x* / 5x Z280 / 1x *M458* (L1029+)]

just asking;

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## Michał

My comments below are actually reposted from the Molgen forum where Maciamo's post was reposted yesterday. :)




> As for other subclades of R1b there are 29x P25 (2.4%), 10x M269 (0.8%), 9x L23 (0.75%), 4x DF27>Z196>Z209 (including 2x Z216+), 2x L21>DF13>L513/DF1, and 2x U106>Z381 (including 1x Z301>L47>Z9).


The above numbers are a bit confusing. For example, there were no P25* cases in that Sardinian sample, and all R1b members were actually P25+, so those 29 cases of P25 from your list are actually all members of clade V88.
Generally, there were 214 R1b people tested in that sample and this included 29 members of V88 and 185 members of M269.
The M269 group was further divided into the large clade L23 (175 people) and a much smaller M269* group represented by 10 people belonging to a new (relatively young) subclade of M269 (a novel sister clade of L23).





> L23 is the dominant form of R1b in Sardinia. Since the Greeks had a very limited presence on the island, and the Etruscans never settled Sardinia, L23 was surely the other main Roman R1b subclade along with U152.


I would rather say that it is P312 (including of course U152) that is a dominant form of R1b in Sardinia, as the L23 group included only six members of L23(xL51), three members of L51(xL11), three cases of L11(xP312,Z381) and two cases of Z381 (a subclade of U106, though it should be noted that U106 itself was not analyzed). The remaining 161 people were all P312+, and this included 128 members of U152, as you have rightly noticed.





> Among the 15 R1a1a individuals were 11x Z282 (among which 5x Z280), 3x Z93 (Z94>L342.2>Z2123) and 1x M458 (L1029+).


These numbers do not seem to be correct. Those 15 R1a members were all R1a-Z645, and in addition to those 11 members of Z282 you have mentioned, there were actually four cases of Z93, including three people tested as Z94+ (all of them indeed Z2123+).

The Z282 group included indeed five Z280 members, but all six remaining Z282 members were likely M458+ (although M458 was not tested, but their M458+ status could be deduced from the positive PF6155 and PF7521 results). Generally, there is a problem with an insufficient SNP detection rate for haplogroup R1a (and generally for all lineages that were not well represented in that Sardinian sample). For example, the only case recognized as L1029+ was assigned as negative for PF6155 and PF7521 (both being upstream of L1029). As for the entire group of eleven Z282 members, only three of them were tested as Z282+ and four were tested as Z283+ (so the Z283/Z282+ status of the entire group was based on some downstream markers only). All this makes it quite likely that all those M458 members identified in Sardinia were either L1029+ or L260+ (as the region encompassing L260 was most likely not analysed).

In addition to Z282 and Z283, there is another new SNP marker uniting M458 and Z280 called CTS11197 (not found in the Z93 branch). Since this mutation was initially identified in the 1KG project, I suspect that it is shared with Z284 (otherwise somebody would have noticed that it separates M458 and Z280 from Z284), but it would be of course reasonable to verify it.

As for the Z280 group, it includes one individual that is likely negative for both CTS1211 and CTS3607. Intriguingly, he is positive for a marker called CTS4648 that was first identified in a 1KG sample (though I don't know in which one). Importantly, this particular marker is included into the Geno 2.0 chip but no R1a member has been tested positive for it, so far.

The remaining four Z280 members seem to be positive for CTS1211 and CTS3607, and I suspect that three of them belong to a specific subclade of CTS1211 (or even a subclade of CTS3402, although CTS3402 was probably not analysed), as they all were positive for at least 12 markers downstream of CTS1211, including CTS8816 (first identified in a 1KG sample but not included into Geno 2.0).





> Although there is no typically Germanic subclade, Z282 and L1029 are not exclusively Balto-Slavic and have also been found in Sweden and Germany. If all of it was brought by the Vandals (who else ?), it looks like the Vandals were heavy on R1a.


I don't think that connecting L1029 with Vandals (and generally with some early Germanic tribes) is a reasonable assumption, but let's wait for some aDNA data. :)

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## Maciamo

> Isnt *M458* also a sub-clade of *Z282*;
> 
> so shouldnt it be *12*x Z282 [6x* / 5x Z280 / 1x *M458* (L1029+)]
> 
> just asking;


You are right that M458 is under Z282, but it is still 11x Z282. I should have inserted the M458 inside the brackets). Will correct now.

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## Maciamo

> My comments below are actually reposted from the Molgen forum where Maciamo's post was reposted yesterday. :)
> 
> 
> The above numbers are a bit confusing. For example, there were no P25* cases in that Sardinian sample, and all R1b members were actually P25+, so those 29 cases of P25 from your list are actually all members of clade V88.
> Generally, there were 214 R1b people tested in that sample and this included 29 members of V88 and 185 members of M269.
> The M269 group was further divided into the large clade L23 (175 people) and a much smaller M269* group represented by 10 people belonging to a new (relatively young) subclade of M269 (a novel sister clade of L23).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. I had already corrected this post after re-reading myself two days ago, but I had not realised that the six Z282+ members had been tested for PF6155 and PF7521 and could therefore be listed as M458+.

Regarding the Vandals, I added an explanation yesterday about the probable assimilation of Proto-Slavic people when the Vandals stayed in Poland, before invading the Roman Empire. Adding the two I2a1b-M423 samples in Sardinia, it looks like 40% of the Vandals' male lineages came from Poland rather than Sweden.

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## LeBrok

> Regarding the Vandals, I added an explanation yesterday about the probable assimilation of Proto-Slavic people when the Vandals stayed in Poland, before invading the Roman Empire. Adding the two I2a1b-M423 samples in Sardinia, it looks like 40% of the Vandals' male lineages came from Poland rather than Sweden.


That's interesting. I wrote 2-3 years ago somewhere on this web site that I suspected Vandals to be a mixture of Germanic and Slavic tribes, with Germanic language as dominant.

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## Sile

> That's interesting. I wrote 2-3 years ago somewhere on this web site that I suspected Vandals to be a mixture of Germanic and Slavic tribes, with Germanic language as dominant.


Slavic?

you mean Sarmatian , actually Iazyges tribe of the Sarmatians
*Around 230, the Asding Vandals pushed in to the north of the Iazyges.* 

David Faux already mentioned this scenario in his paper - "Norse coming from central Asia" ( or something similar title along these lines).

The sarmatians disappeared from history as soon as they made contact with the Vandals

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## nordicwarrior

> I don't see the point of analysing the European Y-chromosomal phylogeny from a Sardinian standpoint...


 I don't think that's the purpose of Sparkey's thread. Where is he tying Sardinian genetics to a larger theme? I'm not seeing it... But anyway I do think it's useful to take a peek at this island because it is so far removed from the norm. What speaks to me is the echo of the whole "boats, horses, and farming" set up that has been repeated on a macro-level throughout the European theater. (With hg. I having boats, R1b having the horses, and G2a, E1, and J tending the earliest farms.) My island refuge theory holds up with these more detailed reports, but it looks like I2 would have landed on an island that was already settled-- probably rather thinly-- by some G, J, and E members.

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## nordicwarrior

R1b would have folded in later chasing the rich mining capacities. Their biggest influx would have probably started with the Romans (maybe even earlier) and continued through the Middle Ages. Lots of metal in that rocky island!

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## polako

> The Arabs never colonised Sardinia. 
> 
> There were only 3 R1a-Z2123 samples in Sardinia, i.e. 0.25% of the population. That is consistent with the very minor size of the Alanic contingent, and in good proportion to the 34 samples that could be of Vandalic origin (2.8%).


It's even more consistent with the fact that Arabs never colonized Sardinia, but Sicily, Southern Italy and North Africa were, and they're nearby.

In other words, you have to do better than that to prove an Alanic link here.

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## polako

> David Faux already mentioned this scenario in his paper - "Norse coming from central Asia" ( or something similar title along these lines).


Norse R1a isn't of Central Asian origin.

So far only one Central Asian R1a-Z94 has been found in Scandinavia, and that belongs to a Swede with possible Tatar ancestry.

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## Nobody1

> But anyway I do think it's useful to take a peek at this island because it is so far removed from the norm. What speaks to me is the echo of the whole "boats, horses, and farming" set up that has been repeated on a macro-level throughout the European theater. (With hg. I having boats, R1b having the horses, and G2a, E1, and J tending the earliest farms.) My island refuge theory holds up with these more detailed reports, but it looks like I2 would have landed on an island that was already settled-- probably rather thinly-- by some G, J, and E members.


How Strabo described Sardinia;

*Strabo* - Book V
_The greater part of Sardo is rugged and not at peace, though much of it has also soil that is blessed with all products — especially with grain.........for in summer the island is unhealthful, particularly in the fruitful districts; and it is precisely these districts that are continually ravaged by those mountaineers who are now called Diagesbes.........There are four tribes of the mountaineers, the Parati, the Sossinati, the Balari, and the Aconites, and they live in caverns; but if they do hold a bit of land that is fit for sowing, they do not sow even this diligently; instead, they pillage the lands of the farmers — not only of the farmers on the island, but they actually sail against the people on the opposite coast, the Pisatae in particular._


The Neolithic _farming_ site at Treilles (France) turned up with I2a1; 
However the ratio was 20x G2a and 2x I2a1;
Whereas in Sardinia the (_modern-day_) ratio is still almost 4 to 1 in favor of I2a1a(M26) over G2a;

from the current study - _Francalacci et al 2013_
*38.7*% --- *I2a1a*(M26)
*10.9*% --- *G2a*

Hence Raiding and Piracy was far more common than Farming in Sardinia; 
Despite the island being blessed with Grain and Fruitful areas;

The only substantial ref. point in_ pre-Roman_ Sardinia is the [_Bronze-age / Iron-age_] *Nuragic* civilization;
Stretching from *1800 BC* (_Bonnanaro culture_) - *238 BC* (_Roman Conquest_)

*Nuragic* _votive-ship_ miniature from Bronze-age Sardinia

----------


## Maciamo

I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian Y-DNA in Sardinia that is not of Neolithic origin ought to have come through the Phoenicians.

I have revised the Y-DNA frequencies for Sardinia, adding the Francalacci data to the previous data. 

Three haplogroups in Sardinia were almost certainly brought by the Phoenicians to Sardinia, because they aren't normally found in the rest of Europe. These are J1-P58, R1b-V88 and R2, of which the Sardinians have an average of respectively 4%, 2.5% and 0.8%. 

The Phoenicians also surely brought J2, E1b1b, G2a and T, but so did Neolithic farmers and probably also the Romans. The difficulty lies in sorting out how much E1b1b and J2 is Phoenician and how much is Roman or Neolithic. J1 in itself could be of Neolithic origin, apart from the fact that Sardinian J1 belongs exclusively to the P58 subclade, and most of it is positive for the typically Semitic L147.1 mutation, thought to represent the descendants of Abraham (who lived circa 1700 BCE, during the Late Bronze Age, half a millennium before the start of the Phoenician colonisation). That subclade is therefore too young to be of Neolithic origin, and too Southwest Asian to be of Greco-Roman or Etruscan origin.

Based on modern frequencies in Lebanon, J2 is only slightly higher than J1 (26% against 20%). That is almost exactly the same proportion as among Jewish people. Therefore there is a good chance that the Phoenicians also had a similar proportion. If that is the case, 4 to 5% of Sardinian J2 would be Phoenician. But it could be just 1.5% or 2% if the Phoenicians really had a J1/J2 proportion intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis. 

E1b1b is slightly lower than J1, so perhaps 3 to 3.5% of Sardinian E1b1b can be considered Phoenician. 

Haplogroup T is at 5% in Lebanon, 1/4 of J1. That would give us 1% of Phoenician T, and 0.5% of Neolithic and/or Roman.

Haplogroup G is found at 1/3 of the frequency of J1 in Lebanon. G2a is at 12% in Sardinia, so 4% could be Phoenician.

There is 8% of R1b in Lebanon, but according to the largest study on Lebanese Y-DNA V88 is only a small minority of the R1b lineages. Most are M269 or downstream (presumably L23). So there could be 4% of Phoenician R1b in Sardinia, the same as G2a, which is in agreement with the modern Lebanese frequencies.

As mentioned above, R1a-Z93 and Q1a3c could also be Phoenician, but could just as well be Alanic.

Haplogroup L, A and E1a could all have been brought by the Phoenicians. This would add up to 1.6% of Phoenician Y-DNA.

Overall I estimate that between 16% and 24% of Sardinian paternal lineages are of Phoenician origin. It is only slightly higher than the autosomal DNA. That would mean that the Phoenicians brought their women with them to their colonies and did not intermarry a lot with local women - at least in the case of Sardinia.


UPDATE 1:

In addition to the Phoenician Y-DNA there is 5.5% of North African E-M81 in Sardinia. It is likely that most of it came to Sardinia when the island was part of the Phoenician/Carthaginian empire. This subclade of E1b1b can neither be considered Neolithic nor Roman. 1% of Lebanese Y-DNA is E-M81. Not enough to account for more than a tiny fraction of the 5.5%.

E-M123, which makes up 2% of Sardinian lineages, is much higher in the Levant than in Europe, meaning that most of it could be of Phoenician origin, leaving perhaps 1.5% or 2% of Phoenician E-M78, and the rest of Neolithic origin. If that is true, then the Romans would have practically not contributed to any E1b1b in Sardinia. The alternative would be that either Neolithic farmers and/or the Phoenicians had much less E1b1b than thought. Anyway it is certain from this study that the Romans carried a much higher percentage of R1b-U152 than of E1b1b.

As for J2, even if Neolithic farmers had none of it, the Romans could only have brought between 2% and 6% to Sardinia once the Phoenician J2 is deducted. It is still a far cry from the 10.5% of R1b-U152.


UPDATE 2:

Here is the breakdown of Lebanese J2 subclades.

- J2a1 : 15.3%
-- J2a1b (M67) : 7.8%
- J2b (M12) : 2.7%

Deeper subclades were not tested, but according to the FTDNA Project, J2a1h2a1-L70 appears to be the most common subclade in Lebanon.

Here is the Sardinian breakdown:

- J2a* (M410) : 0.6%
-- J2a1* (L26) : 1.3% 
--- J2a1b (M67) : 1.5% (including 0.7% of J2a1b1-M92)
--- J2a1h (L24) : 2% (including 0.4% of J2a1h2a1-L70)
-- J2a2 (L581) : 0.8% (including 0.25% of J2a2a-P279)
- J2b (M12) : 2% (including 1.6% of J2b2-M241)

The three most common subclades in Sardinia, M67, L24 and M12 are all well represented in Lebanon and could therefore be of Phoenician origin. I would need more details on Lebanese subclades to determine whether L581 could also be Levantine. The problem is that all these subclades are also found on the Italian mainland, so it is of little help to separate the Phoenician from the Roman lineages.


UPDATE 3 :

Out of the 11% of G2a in this study, 3.3% is L91+, a subclade typical of North Africa, and also found in Sicily. Since it isn't found in Lebanon, but sometimes pops up in northern Europe, it is most likely of Neolithic origin.

The rest of G2a includes:

- G2a3a (M406) : 0.8% => found in Lebanon but also throughout Europe.
- G2a3b1* (P303) : 2.1% => potentially Indo-European, could be Roman.
-- G2a3b1a1 (U1) : 0.9% (all L13+ or L1266+) => very probably Indo-European, Celto-Italic, Roman.
-- G2a3b1a2 (L497) : 0.5% => very strongly mirrors the distribution of R1b-P312, and especially U152. Almost certainly Roman.
-- G2a3b1a3a (Z1903) : 2.4%

----------


## Wilhelm

I don't think Phoenicians had that much of a genetic impact. The phoenicians were first and foremost commercial people, traders ... they didn't made big settlements, just port-towns along coast-lines, for their comnmercial purposes, but rarely penetrating inside the lands where they went, or blending with local cultures and people. Their legacy is mostly cultural.

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## Sile

> I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian DNA in Sardinia ought to have come through the Phoenicians.
> 
> *Autosomal DNA*
> 
> Based on the Dodecad's K=12 autosomal admixtures, the Sardinians have 6.2% of Southwest Asian and 4.6% of West Asian admixture (along with 55.5% of Mediterranean). Modern Lebanese, the presumed descendants of the Phoenicians, have 23.9% of Southwest Asian, 32.4% of West Asian, and 28.8% of Mediterranean.
> 
> Since Ötzi had very little West Asian and no Southwest Asian admixture, it is relatively safe to think that Neolithic farmers didn't bring those admixtures, and that it is consequently of Phoenician or Roman origin. Modern Central Italians have 7.2% of Southwest Asian and 21.6% of West Asian, but since they are certainly not representative of admixtures of ancient Romans of the Republic since ancient Rome became a huge melting pot during the empire and completely changed the gene pool of central Italy.
> 
> We could calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Roman by looking at the Southwest Asian vs West Asian ratio. For the Phoenicians it is 3/4. For the Central Italians it is 1/3. Sardinians are unique in having more Southwest Asian than West Asian. Their ratio is the same as the Phoenicians by inverted. That makes them intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis. As a result, it can be envisaged that the Phoenicians had a higher proportion of J1 to J2 than modern Lebanese. It's actually hard to see how the Romans could have contributed any West Asian admixture at all, since they would have raised its proportion to the Southwest Asian admixture to around 50-50 (unless of course the ancient Romans had more Southwest Asian than West Asian, but I cannot imagine how this could be). So it is very possible that all the Southwest Asian and almost all the West Asian in Sardinia is of Phoenician origin. If that is the case, then around 5% of Mediterranean admixture could also be Phoenician, bring the total of autosomal DNA of Phoenician origin to approximately 16%. Let's see if similar proportions can be obtained from Y-DNA
> ...


i really enjoy posts like this...........anyway, does MtDna play any part in this?
Sardinian subclade U5b3a1 of Haplogroup U (mtDNA) came from Provence to Sardinia by obsidian (Glass) merchants, as it is estimated that 80% of obsidian found in France comes from Monte Arci in Sardinia reflecting the close relations that existed at one time for these two regions. 

Another interesting anomaly is the presence of H13a of Haplogroup H (mtDNA) is present in the island at around *9.2%*. As this is an extremely rare subclade normally present in the Caucasus.

----------


## Bashkir

> Z2123 is very widespread from India to the Bashkirs to Germany. If it does prove to be Middle Eastern in origin I imagine it was probably brought into Sardinia during the Roman or Byzantine Empires. Or if Z2123 originated in the steppe, then the Alans are the likely source along with perhaps the Q1a3c.
> 
> It's not really too Slavic looking at all. The Z282 and Z280 are probably remnants from the Pomeranian Culture (650BCE-200BCE) and Lusatian Culture (1300 BCE - 500BCE) which are by most accounts Baltic with strong connections to the Nordic Bronze Age.


Need to know is What subclades R1a+Z2123 is it in Sardinia?

Which STR those in Sardinia, which SNP R1a+Z2123?

Bashkirs have three subclades R1a+Z2123:

Sakes-Dinlings 13 25 15 11 11-13 12 12 10 13 11 31
Wusuns 13 24 16 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 11 31
Massagetaes-Alans 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 12 11 29


They all are R1a+Z2123, the lifetime of a common ancestor according to calculations by Igor Rozhanskii = 4,300 years ago, or in other words 23 century BC

About Sakes-Dinlings sub-branch R1a+Z2123 the Bashkirs - there is an article in English.

In Karachays-Balkars peoples who live in the Caucasus, and they are direct descendants of the Alans - they have Massagetaes-Alans line R1a+Z2123.

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## LeBrok

Very interesting and intriguing exercise Maciamo.

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## Bashkir

Furnivall Italy 270161, R1a Unknown 
14 25 16 11 11 15 12 12 10 13 11 29 15 9 10 11 11 24 14 20 36 12 15 15 16 11 12 19 23 16 15 18 19 35 39 13 11 11 8 17 17 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 22 22 15 10 12 12 14 8 15 23 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13 

Bostan Karachay (Caucas) 211933, R1a+Z2123 
13 25 16 11 11 14 12 12 10 12 11 29 15 9 10 11 11 25 14 20 33 12 14 15 16 11 12 19 24 16 16 17 19 35 39 13 11 11 8 16 17 8 12 10 8 11 10 12 22 22 15 10 12 12 13 8 15 23 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

P.S. 13 steps between Bostan and Furnivall.

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## Nobody1

This is now the second study in a row that confirms R1b-U152 to be ~10% in Sardinia;

_Boattini et al 2013_ [82 samples] = 9.7% R1b-*U152*
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
_Francalacci et al 2013_ [1200 samples] = 10.7% R1b-*U152*
(_current study_) 

Needless to say that only the _Roman times_ and the _Medieval times_ can be the source for this 
substantial (_every tenth Sardinian_) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia;


I think the *main source* however; is def. the *Medieval times*; 

*David Abulafia* - The New Cambridge Medieval History: Vol.V (1999)
_As has been seen, Castel di Castro or Cagliari was founded by the Pisans in 1217, with imposing fortifications; and, even though settlement by Sards was prohibited, it rapidly grew to contain a population of several thousand (between 7,000 and 10,000 at the end of the thirteenth century).....In the same judgeship, in the south-west of Sardinia, Count Ugolino founded around 1250 the city of Iglesias, which was to grow within a couple of generations to a population not far below 10,000.....Another town which experienced growth was the reborn centre at Olbia, on the north-east coast of Sardinia; Civita or Terranova was described in a Pisan document as a quasi civitas.....This urbanisation was rendered possible by the emigration from the mainland, especially from Pisa and its contado;_

Pisa and Genoa conquered Sardinia in 1016; The Pisans were greatly crippled by the Genoese at the _Battle of Meloria_ (1284) and 40 years later lost control over Sardinia; Thats over 300 years with massive urbanisation (Tuscan migrations) across the 13th cen.

So in terms of R1b-U152 
- what the _medieval_ Lombards are for Sicily the _medieval_ Tuscans are for Sardinia; 
NW Italy (_medieval_ Lombardy) = 32.2% R1b-U152 [161 samples] - _Boattini et al 2013_
Tuscany = 37.4% R1b-U152 [123 samples] - _Boattini et al 2013_

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## Mikewww

> ...
> Needless to say that only the _Roman times_ and the _Medieval times_ can be the source for this 
> substantial (_every tenth Sardinian_) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia...


Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of xxx's hypotheses.
[[[EDIT 08/14/2013: I can't find the posting from Rocca. His U152.org web link is down, but he may have been referring to Urnfield anyway. My mistake, although I still think the Ligures are consideration. ]]]

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## Angela

> I would like to investigate what percentage of Y-DNA in Sardinia can be attributed to the Phoenicians. Since the Arabs, Greeks or Etruscans didn't settle in Sardinia, all the Southwest Asian and most of the West Asian DNA in Sardinia ought to have come through the Phoenicians.
> 
> *Autosomal DNA*
> 
> Based on the Dodecad's K=12 autosomal admixtures, the Sardinians have 6.2% of Southwest Asian and 4.6% of West Asian admixture (along with 55.5% of Mediterranean). Modern Lebanese, the presumed descendants of the Phoenicians, have 23.9% of Southwest Asian, 32.4% of West Asian, and 28.8% of Mediterranean.
> 
> Since Ötzi had very little West Asian and no Southwest Asian admixture, it is relatively safe to think that Neolithic farmers didn't bring those admixtures, and that it is consequently of Phoenician or Roman origin. Modern Central Italians have 7.2% of Southwest Asian and 21.6% of West Asian, but they are certainly not representative of admixtures of ancient Romans of the Republic since ancient Rome became a huge melting pot during the empire and completely changed the gene pool of central Italy.
> 
> We could calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Roman by looking at the Southwest Asian vs West Asian ratio. For the Phoenicians it is 3/4. For the Central Italians it is 1/3. Sardinians are unique in having more Southwest Asian than West Asian. Their ratio is the same as the Phoenicians by inverted. That makes them intermediary between modern Jordanians and Saudis. As a result, it can be envisaged that the Phoenicians had a higher proportion of J1 to J2 than modern Lebanese. It's actually hard to see how the Romans could have contributed any West Asian admixture at all, since they would have raised its proportion to the Southwest Asian admixture to around 50-50 (unless of course the ancient Romans had more Southwest Asian than West Asian, but I cannot imagine how this could be). So it is very possible that all the Southwest Asian and almost all the West Asian in Sardinia is of Phoenician origin. If that is the case, then around 5% of Mediterranean admixture could also be Phoenician, bring the total of autosomal DNA of Phoenician origin to approximately 16%. Let's see if similar proportions can be obtained from Y-DNA
> ...


Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html

G2a3a (M406) forms up to 50% of the G2a in the eastern Mediterranean. It is found very commonly in southern Italy. Various people have tried to tie its presence there to Greek and Balkan expansion, but it could be Neolithic, of course. Interesting that it's so low in Sardegna.

----------


## Nobody1

> Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of Richard Rocca's hypotheses.


The _Ligures_ are a very very interesting point; 
That truly deserves a thread of their own (still waiting on Taranis); - In full detail and explanation;

In whatever scenario the _Ligures_ are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one) 
It *can not* apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the _Ligures_; 

Sardinia was mostly settled (_pre-Roman_ 238BC) by Iberians, Phoenicians, Libyans and of course the local Mountaineer tribes -_ Parati / Sossinati / Balari / Aconites_ 
who *Strabo* claims to be of a mythical backround - Iolaus (_sons of Herakles_); 
and *Pausanias* mentions Trojans in Sardinia;

In this respect it is interesting to note that Bronze-age _Sardinians_ clustered closest to _Minoans_ and Bronze-age _Iberians_

_Hughey et al 2013_
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2871.html
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...ms2871_T1.html

Whereas modern-day Sardinians are isolated and cluster the closest to _neolithic_ corpses;


The _Ligures_ as a source for R1b-U152 can only apply to Corsica and East Sicily (_Siculi_);

----------


## Maciamo

> Have you considered the ancient Ligures? I think that is one of Richard Rocca's hypotheses.


Modern Ligurians have one of the highest frequency of R1b-P312* in Italy (nearly half of all R1b according to Boattini et al.) as well as some R1b-L21. But they have one of the lowest levels of R1b-U152 in northern Italy. Considering that, it would be fairly surprising that they brought exclusively U152 to Sardinia and no P312*. Since the Ligures were not even an Italic tribe but closer to the Celts I'd say that they were originally P312 and that the U152 in modern Liguria came from the Romans and intermarriages with other north-western Italians who have much higher levels of U152.

If there should be an alternative source of U152 to the Romans, I'd rather look at Corsicans and Tuscans settling in Sardinia since the Middle Ages. If only we could know the surnames who are U152 and their geographic distribution within Sardinia, that would greatly help determine how much could be Corscian/Tuscan.

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## Angela

> This is now the second study in a row that confirms R1b-U152 to be ~10% in Sardinia;
> 
> _Boattini et al 2013_ [82 samples] = 9.7% R1b-*U152*
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441
> _Francalacci et al 2013_ [1200 samples] = 10.7% R1b-*U152*
> (_current study_) 
> 
> Needless to say that only the _Roman times_ and the _Medieval times_ can be the source for this 
> substantial (_every tenth Sardinian_) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia;
> ...


If the Francalacci study gave geographical coordinates for their samples, and a lot of the U-152 was from, say, that southern coastal area around Cagliari, it would tie it up nicely.

It would have been interesting to see, also, if a lot of that U-152 was from the northern coast where they speak the Corsican dialect. (Gallurese) Corsican is, of course, usually considered closest to Tuscan, although since Corsica was ruled for so long by Genova, there is some Ligurian influence as well. One thing that could be done, perhaps, would be to check the snps for U-152 in Corsica versus those in Sardegna.

It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png

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## Maciamo

> Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html


Yes, you are right. My mistake. I got mixed up with the K=12, K=12a and K=12b. 

In the K=12b you cited the admixtures should be as follows:

- Sardinians have 2.6% of Northwest African, 5.8% of Southwest Asian, 20.9% of Caucasian and 70.5% of Atlantic-Med. 
- Lebanese have 4.7% of Northwest African, 23.5% of Southwest Asian, 41.3% of Caucasian and 11.8% of Atlantic-Med. 
- Ötzi has 5.7% of Northwest African, 7.6% of Southwest Asian, 22.3% of Caucasian and 57.7% of Atlantic-Med. 

I will re-calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Neolithic autosomes in Sardinians later.

----------


## Knovas

> It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since *the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled.* 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png


If true, then R1b would be clearly dominant (as it is in Catalonia). Interesting point.

----------


## Angela

> Yes, you are right. My mistake. I got mixed up with the K=12, K=12a and K=12b. 
> 
> In the K=12b you cited the admixtures should be as follows:
> 
> - Sardinians have 2.6% of Northwest African, 5.8% of Southwest Asian, 20.9% of Caucasian and 70.5% of Atlantic-Med. 
> - Lebanese have 4.7% of Northwest African, 23.5% of Southwest Asian, 41.3% of Caucasian and 11.8% of Atlantic-Med. 
> - Ötzi has 5.7% of Northwest African, 7.6% of Southwest Asian, 22.3% of Caucasian and 57.7% of Atlantic-Med. 
> 
> I will re-calculate the proportion of Phoenician vs Neolithic autosomes in Sardinians later.


These kinds of percentages highlight why I don't think modern Levantine populations are a very good proxy for the Neolithic migrants from West Asia.

Ed. Sorry, that was off-topic.

----------


## Angela

> The _Ligures_ are a very very interesting point; 
> That truly deserves a thread of their own (still waiting on Taranis); - In full detail and explanation;
> 
> In whatever scenario the _Ligures_ are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one) 
> It *can not* apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the _Ligures_; 
> 
> Sardinia was mostly settled (_pre-Roman_ 238BC) by Iberians, Phoenicians, Libyans and of course the local Mountaineer tribes -_ Parati / Sossinati / Balari / Aconites_ 
> who *Strabo* claims to be of a mythical backround - Iolaus (_sons of Herakles_); 
> and *Pausanias* mentions Trojans in Sardinia;
> ...



The U-152 in northern Sardegna could still be connected to Ligures as a hypothesis; it would just mean that the Corsicans were the intermediaries. The U-152, if any, found in Cagliari in the south could more directly be linked to Toscana (Pisa area to be precise.)

Just as an aside, Liguria was influenced by more than one wave of people up to late in the first centuries B.C., when, genetically, things in most of Italy, with the exception perhaps of the south, seem to have frozen. Liguria is home, of course, to famous Paleolithic sites, Neolithic sites, (Cardial on the coast, but of a different variety at the mountainous margins) and then you have the mysterious Ligures, who, in addition to whatever they were carrying in terms of y dna and autosomally, absorbed the prior inhabitants. The final major movement of which I'm aware was from Gallic tribes. If I were to speculate, I would say that is the explanation for some of the more "western" clades of R1b, like DF27 and L-21.

As for Sicily, the same thing applies as applies to Sardegna. The U-152, could, as some have hypothesized, be of Ligure origin, but just mediated by the "Lombard" settlers of medieval Sicily. "Lombards" in that context, were not only people from Lombardia, but also Liguria and Toscana.

If I'm not mistaken, the clustering with Minoans and Iberians for the Sardinians which you mention above only has to do with uniparental markers. (Crete was settled multiple times from the Levant and West Asia, from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age.)

We don't have autsomal analysis for either of these groups. The only autosomal analyses for European Neolithic farmers that we have are from Oetzi and Gok 4. Oetzi is indeed closest to Sardinians. Gok 4 not quite as much. If I recall correctly, Dienekes did an IBD analysis showing Gok 4's similarity to Greeks. I believe Dienekes also posted about Gok 4's similarity to northern Italians, (based on the overall ancestry calculators) but I didn't think his Gok 4 calculator was very successful.

----------


## Nobody1

> If the Francalacci study gave geographical coordinates for their samples, and a lot of the U-152 was from, say, that southern coastal area around Cagliari, it would tie it up nicely.
> 
> It would have been interesting to see, also, if a lot of that U-152 was from the northern coast where they speak the Corsican dialect. (Gallurese) Corsican is, of course, usually considered closest to Tuscan, although since Corsica was ruled for so long by Genova, there is some Ligurian influence as well. One thing that could be done, perhaps, would be to check the snps for U-152 in Corsica versus those in Sardegna.
> 
> It would also have been nice to see what the y dna is like in Alghero, where they still speak Catalan, especially since the historical records say that the natives (some mixture of Sardi, Liguri, Toschi) were expelled. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sa...nguage_Map.png



100% agree;
If the study would have chopped the samples acc. to geographic region it would have been a much more clearer insight - _Historically_; 

The 82 Sardinian samples from _Boattini et al 2013_ came from the provinces Olbia, Nuoro and Oristano;
Olbia/Nuoro [40 samples] = 12.5% R1b-U152 
Oristano [42 samples] = 7.1% R1b-U152

Looks more frequent on the Eastern Coast than Western Coast; 
unfortunately no samples from the Southern Coast or Northern Coast

_Boattini et al 2013_ - TableS2 (Supporting Information)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441


Alghero would be very interesting also for admixture; maybe they are the only "Sardinians" (Aragonese/Catalans) that cluster with others (+levels of inter-mixture with the local Sardinians _over the centuries_); 
Y-DNA i would expect a lot (_or decent amount_) of R-SRY2627;

----------


## Maciamo

> 100% agree;
> If the study would have chopped the samples acc. to geographic region it would have been a much more clearer insight - _Historically_; 
> 
> The 82 Sardinian samples from _Boattini et al 2013_ came from the provinces Olbia, Nuoro and Oristano;
> Olbia/Nuoro [40 samples] = 12.5% R1b-U152 
> Oristano [42 samples] = 7.1% R1b-U152
> 
> Looks more frequent on the Eastern Coast than Western Coast; 
> unfortunately no samples from the Southern Coast or Northern Coast
> ...


Yes, that's really a shame Francalacci didn't at least mention which places were sampled for the study. Anyway there wasn't a single R1b-SRY2627 out of the 1200 samples tested, so it is possible that there were no sample from Catalan-speaking Alghero.

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## Mikewww

> .. In whatever scenario the Ligures are a source for R1b-U152 (and i do believe they can be considered one) It *can not* apply to Sardinia - since Sardinia was never settled by the Ligures;


I wouldn't be quite so certain (as Angela noted earlier) of that as U152 is not the dominant haplogroup in Sardinia so there would be no requirement to have a large Ligurian presence and the flow could have come from Corsica. There are theories that the Ligures are connected with the Iberians. If you have people in NW Italy, SE France and Iberia connected, it's hard to believe none would have touched Sardinia.

However, let us set aside the Ligures for a moment. My memory was wrong on what I thought Rocca had said or at least I can't find what he posted. More recently, this May, he wrote, _"The earliest branches of U152 probably expanded somewhere in coastal SE France or NW Italy during the Late Copper Age. From there, there was a secondary expansion that occurred during the Bell Beaker "reflux" period. This expansion probably gave rise to Z36 somewhere in the central Alpine passes between Italy and Switzerland and L2 somewhere in the Eastern Bell Beaker Province (S. Germany, E. Switzerland, Bohemia, Hungary) and so it seems to have a 'Germanic' look to it. As part of the reflux period, NE Italy was heavily influenced by that province too (see Begleitkeramik) and formed the launch point for the Polada Culture. Many of the areas where L2 makes up a large percentage of U152 also shows U106 in important numbers.

Z56 is a little tougher to figure out. Based on some off-modal values, it seems to have occurred after Z36 and L2. Its most important frequency probably lies somewhere between Tuscany and Modena. Z56 could have expanded with the Terramare Culture.

Of course all subsequent expansions from those areas would have scattered the big three subclades (Urnfield, Hallstatt, La Tene, Romans). L2's main subclade (Z367 and its subclade L20) probably expanded with the RSFO Urnfield Culture in France and made its way into the isles with La Tene."_ http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post6230

Of course the bulk of the R1b-U152 in Sardinia is Z192+ which is L2- Z56- Z36-. Other than Sardinia, we have found Z192 in Tuscany, Mexico and Ireland. Yes, it could be Roman related, but as Richard cited above, *U152 could easily have been in several major cultures and these ancient cultures ringed the Ligurian Sea. U152 could easily have reached Sardinia several times in prehistory and leading up to the Roman Empire era.*

I make these points in response to your post, 


> ... Needless to say that only the _Roman times_ and the _Medieval times_ can be the source for this substantial (_every tenth Sardinian_) amount of R1b-U152 in Sardinia...


I just don't see how you can demonstrate the Roman and Medieval times as the only periods of U152 immigration into Sardinia.

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## Nobody1

*@ Mikewww*

Would be good to know whether Mr. Rocca considers U152 to be an Indo-European or a pre-Indo-European lineage;
By the looks of it he has no problem assigning U152 to every single culture zone from the Chalcolithic to the Iron-age; regardless of historical backround;


I consider U152 to be Indo-European and strongly associated with the Umbrians [_Terremare_ and _Urnfield_ (Villanova/Golasecca)] and with the proto-Kelts [_Tumulus_ and _Urnfield_ (Hallstatt A-B)]
With U152 being a substantial element among the proto-Kelts/Kelts and the most dominant element amongst the Umbrians (ITALICS);

A common link/root that the Keltics and Italics share within the Indo-European realm is also given in Linguistics;

*David Rankin* - Celts and the Classical World (1986)
_As in Celtic, so also in Italic, /p/—/k w/ becomes / kw/—/k w/ and /p/—/p/ according to dialect, as in 'quinque' and 'Pompeius'. The 'b' future, which is found in Latin and other Italic dialects, occurs also in Celtic: both Celtic and Italic retain the /samo/ suffix for the superlative degree of adjectives. These are some of the obvious points of resemblance. There are considerably more. In the range of correspondences, Latin seems to have points markedly in common with q-Celtic, whereas Oscan and Sabellian seem to be closer to p-Celtic. These and other factors could suggest an earlier geographical continuity between the ancestors of Italic and Celtic speakers._ 


As for Sardinia;
Based on the Historic events on Sardinia; i personally do not see any other source that could justify 10.7% U152 in moder-day Sardinia other than the vast Tuscan migrations of the medieval times (13th cen) -[post #36]

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## Sile

> Both Oetzi and Gok 4 had about 7% S.W.Asian, and therefore it's extremely likely that it was indeed part of the genomic structure of the Neolithic farmers who made their way into Europe.
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04...neolithic.html
> 
> G2a3a (M406) forms up to 50% of the G2a in the eastern Mediterranean. It is found very commonly in southern Italy. Various people have tried to tie its presence there to Greek and Balkan expansion, but it could be Neolithic, of course. Interesting that it's so low in Sardegna.


But Maciamo is stating G-L91 is north-African and Otzi is confirmed G-L91. How is a north-african have 7% SW Asian?

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## Maciamo

> But Maciamo is stating G-L91 is north-African and Otzi is confirmed G-L91. How is a north-african have 7% SW Asian?


I believe that G-L91 could have been spread by the Neolithic farmers who hopped from Greece to Italy to the Maghreb and to Mediterranean Spain and France. Just have a look at my map of the diffusion of agriculture.

The Southwest Asian and Caucasian admixtures would have been part of the original genome of Levantine farmers. But it seems that they also carried genes that were mistakenly reported as Northwest African admixture, perhaps because they have survived better in Northwest Africa today. 

Another possibility would be that those are the genes linked to E-M81 and some other E1b1b lineages that spread from the Levant to southern Europe and North Africa. Another migration, probably in the Late Palaeolithic, would have brought E-M81 both to Northwest Africa and to the Levant, explaining how this admixture.

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## Nobody1

_Bekada et al 2013_
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%....0056775#close

G = [M201,M285,*P15*,P16,M406]

Sahara/Mauritania = *0% G* --- [189 samples]

Morocco = *0.7% G* --- [760 samples]

Algeria = *0% G* --- [156 samples]

Tunisia = *0.2% G* --- [601 samples]

Libya = *0% G* --- [83 samples]

Egypt = *5.7% G* --- [370 samples]


It looks like (in a *Neolithic* _farming_ context) the most highest amount *G* in N Africa is in _fertile_ Egypt

Since this study encompasses M201,M285,P15,P16,M406 as *G* 
- im not sure how much of it is L91 an how much isnt;


*Haplogroup G*

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## Maciamo

> _Bekada et al 2013_
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%....0056775#close
> 
> G = [M201,M285,*P15*,P16,M406]
> 
> Sahara/Mauritania = *0% G* --- [189 samples]
> 
> Morocco = *0.7% G* --- [760 samples]
> 
> ...


Egypt is the closest to the source of the Neolithic (the Levant) and indeed the most fertile. But haplogroup G is almost certainly not the only one spread by Neolithic farmers. There was also E1b1b and perhaps also some J and T.

What's interesting in the case of Sardinia is that 60 out of 63 J1 samples belong to the J1-P58 subclade, and among them 58 belong to the Semitic L147.1 subclade, the main Arabic cluster and the Jewish Cohanim haplotype. That is why I think it can only be Phoenician in origin. The potentially Neolithic J1 found in central or northern Europe typically belongs to the other, rarer subclades (Z2223, M365.1, Z1828), which are also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus.

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## Nobody1

I also view the Phoenician/Punic input in Sardinia to be very noteworthy; 

*Martin Goodman* - The Roman World 44 BC - AD 180 (1997)
_Latin rights were gradually extended to the inhabitants of the existing cities during the first century AD, but still in the second century a neo-Punic inscription set up in one town described local magistrates as suffetes, and cultic inscriptions reveal the continued worship of Punic divinities only thinly disguised behind Roman names._

The Phoenician colonies in Sardinia remained strongly Phoenician/Punic 
all the way into Roman times (2nd cen. *AD*)

Phoenician colonies - _foundations began_ ~800 BC



Certain Levantine lineages such as the *J1* sub-clade you describe can be attributed to the _sole_ Phoenician context & the North African lineage E-*M81* within the _total_ Punic (Carthage) context_ - ancient-Berbers (Libyans)_


The constant link with Sardinia and the East Mediterranean _Sea-Peoples_ (especially the _Sherden_) also needs a closer look;
The Phoenician _Stele of Nora_ (9th cen BC) describes the island as *Shardan* (while the Greeks called it *Ichnusa*)

*I. E. S. Edwards* - The Cambridge Ancient History (1975)
_In the earliest Phoenician inscription found in Sardinia, that from Nora, probably of the ninth century B.C., although it is incomplete, the name of the island appears as Shardan (be-shardan), and thus the identification of Sardinia with the Sherden seems much strengthened._

*Stele of Nora* (9th cen BC) - Phoenician *SHRDN* [Shardan]



*Pausanias* mention of Trojans and *Strabo* mention of Iolaus and the _Children of Herakles_ also point to the East Mediterranean;
What part exactly the mysterious _Sea-Peoples_ played on Sardinia can not (_prob. never_) be fully reconstructed;

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## Sile

> Egypt is the closest to the source of the Neolithic (the Levant) and indeed the most fertile. But haplogroup G is almost certainly not the only one spread by Neolithic farmers. There was also E1b1b and perhaps also some J and T.
> 
> What's interesting in the case of Sardinia is that 60 out of 63 J1 samples belong to the J1-P58 subclade, and among them 58 belong to the Semitic L147.1 subclade, the main Arabic cluster and the Jewish Cohanim haplotype. That is why I think it can only be Phoenician in origin. The potentially Neolithic J1 found in central or northern Europe typically belongs to the other, rarer subclades (Z2223, M365.1, Z1828), which are also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus.


Professor Jobling of England states. on T haplgroup
*"The haplogroup has probably been present for centuries in the 'indigenous' population of western Europe," says Professor Jobling (of University of Leicester), "and is not exclusive to the Middle East and Africa." [10] According to limited data from commercial testing, of the European nations, men in Italy may have the highest frequency of haplogroup T, with as many as 3.9% of Italian males belonging to this haplogroup.*
*Appears to follow a Megalithic and civilized pattern, could be Dinarics/Atlanto-Mediterraneans. 
The highest concentration of T is in Italy and according to professor Jobling its likely of Upper Paleolithic European derivation and he pushes for a European(which includes the central and Mediterranean(including Iberia). So its either that or a signature of the Italo-Romans as Wales was an important area.* 

with this link
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...eCnkndFQ&pli=1

It must have come earlier
The *Upper Paleolithic* (or *Upper Palaeolithic*, _Late Stone Age_) is the third and last subdivision of the Paleolithic or Old Stone Age as it is understood in Europe, Africa and Asia. Very broadly, it dates to between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago,

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## Robert6

> Among the 15 *R1a1a* individuals were 11x *Z282* (among which 5x *Z280*, 1x *M458>L1029* and 5x probably *M458>L260*) and 4x *Z93* (including 3x Z94>L342.2>Z2123). The Z2123 is Middle Eastern or Central Asian and could have been brought either by the Phoenicians or the Alans.


The R1a-Z2123 possibly is there from Aghlabids*
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...svg?uselang=ru

*The Aghlabids are from Al-Tamimi(Banu Tamimi)*

ALTamimi cluster within Z2123*

9. ...>Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123-D-x Arab cluster (another Big Y needed)
M6982 need earliest known paternal ancestor info Kuwait R-M417 13 24 16 11 11-11 12  12 10 13 11 29 
343784 Qatar R-M512 13 24 16 11 11-11-12-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
178906 A Yousif ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-12 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M7066 Kuwait R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-12 12 12 10 13 11 29 
162855 A Ali ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
178907 ALAmrawi ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
178905 ALAmrawi ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
160271 Aal Qatar R-M417 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
157103 BniAmr ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M198 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M6895 Al-Tamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
157619 BniAmr ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
157621 BniAmr ALTamimi Saudi Arabia R-M512 13 25 16 10 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M7052 United Arab Emirates R-M512 13 25 16 11 11-11 12 12 10 13 11 29
M7067 United Arab Emirates R-M512 13 25 16 11 11-11 12 12 10 13 11 29
M7059 Kuwait R-PAGES00007 13 25 16 11 11-11 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M6458 need earliest known ancestor info Kuwait R-Z94 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29
M6183 F. Bo alhossain Kuwait R-M512 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M6679 Kuwait R-M512 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M6285 Ahmed Mohamed Kabeer Qatar R-M512 13 25 16 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 11 29 
M6459 United Arab Emirates R-M512 13 25 16 13 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 29 
M7013 Kuwait R-M512 13 26 16 10 11-11 12 12 10 13 11 29

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## Hauteville

Someone can explain me why there are some A1b and R2a?

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