# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > N1c >  N1C spread by trade routes service social class leitzleute, letigalli, lyda, litva

## Norvila

Dear colleagues,

I propose to look at gene distribution from total weighted figure perspective that brings quite different picture than view of colored maps based on max % as this doesn’t account density of population on the territory.
I’ve used https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

I’ve looked also if gene locations could be associated with trade routes as the way of spread.
N1C total.JPG
This brought me thought it could a mistake associate N1C with NE tribes as their population has only 5% of total N1C.
Together with Finland, Karela, Hungary and Estonia or so called FU language group has only 12% of total N1C.

On opposite side in Turkey Anatolia calculated there are 1.55M of N1C males that is 92% of 1.68M of Finland with Karela. We don’t know massive exodus from Finland, but it was many waves from the Anatolia (Lydia).

The Rus accounted almost 17M of N1C males today emerged on trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks controlled by the Rurikid and Gedimind ruling dynasties that were N1C origin.
Gedimind title was _Dei gratia Letwinorum et multorum Ruthenorum rex_ so if Russia and GDL figures comes together it’s *20M or 69% of total N1C*.
It’s attested both founders provided trade-travel infrastructure and service that was called leitzleute, letigalli, lyd(i)ava, litva, leita, lieta, lieda etc.

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## Norvila

N Y-DNA in East Germany has 7.4% comparing to 2% average in Germany as per post in this forum.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...852#post561852
It could be explained with Amber trade route that passed Elbe/Labe river and fur trade via Breslau.
It appears Bavarian dialect still preserved term leitzleute.
South Germany has too much of Lithuanian R1a Z280 that also had magnates Radziwillo controlled wast lands and trade routes hubs. They also were dukes of Holly Roman Empire connected by marriages with Bavaria, Brandenburg, Pfalc-Noiburg dukes.

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## Norvila

*A Genome-Wide Analysis of Populations from European Russia Reveals a New Pole of Genetic Diversity in Northern Europe
*"...we report an analysis of approximately 166,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms in populations from eastern (northeastern) Europe: four Russian populations from European Russia, and three populations from the northernmost Finno-Ugric ethnicities (Veps and two contrast groups of Komi people). These were compared with several reference European samples, including Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs, Germans, and Italians. The results obtained demonstrated genetic heterogeneity of populations living in the region studied. *Russians from* *the central part of European Russia (Tver, Murom, and Kursk) exhibited similarities with populations from central–eastern Europe*, and were distant from Russian sample from the northern Russia (Mezen district, Archangelsk region)." https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0058552

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## Norvila

Attachment 10575Attachment 10576This is genetic forum of course, but check folk costumes from Croatia Posavina and North Udmurt also f.e. Komi ladies looks like Lithuanians in http://folkcostume.blogspot.com/2014...of-europe.html

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## 50cal

I'm struggling to understand your point here.

The number of people carrying N in 2018 is completely irrelevant. It's not indicative of anything other than demographic trends within the social structures of the respective political entity these individuals reside in.

It seems to be some uninformed gibberish mixed with Lithuanian nationalism and baseless speculation.
The entire apparatus of the pre-modern Lithuanian state was Slavic, I have no idea why you're so fixated on some random dynasties here. It's completely irrelevant to the general genetic makeup of the region.

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## 50cal

> N Y-DNA in East Germany has 7.4% comparing to 2% average in Germany as per post in this forum.
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...852#post561852
> It could be explained with Amber trade route that passed Elbe/Labe river and fur trade via Breslau.
> It appears Bavarian dialect still preserved term leitzleute.
> South Germany has too much of Lithuanian R1a Z280 that also had magnates Radziwillo controlled wast lands and trade routes hubs. They also were dukes of Holly Roman Empire connected by marriages with Bavaria, Brandenburg, Pfalc-Noiburg dukes.


It's pretty much general knowledge that Old Prussians were assimilated into the future German nation. It's got nothing to do with Radziwillo or trade routes.
There was also some minor backflow from the Baltic Germans numbering 70,000 to 100,000, which were deported to Germany and were mostly genetically mixed with ethnic Latvians and Estonians.

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## Ygorcs

> Dear colleagues,
> 
> I propose to look at gene distribution from total weighted figure perspective that brings quite different picture than view of colored maps based on max % as this doesn’t account density of population on the territory.
> I’ve used https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population
> 
> I’ve looked also if gene locations could be associated with trade routes as the way of spread.
> N1C total.JPG
> This brought me thought it could a mistake associate N1C with NE tribes as their population has only 5% of total N1C.
> ...


I don't think that's a very reliable and correct way of looking at the data, because some countries just experienced a much bigger population boom than others along history. The absolute numbers don't tell us a lot because the distribution of human population and its growth was very assymetrical in the last millennia. Besides, much of Northern Russia was mostly Finno-Ugric even in historic times, as far as the High Middle Ages, so its strong presence, both in relative and absolute numbers, in Russia maintains the close association with either present or former Uralic-speaking areas.

However, I think it's plausible that the expansion of N1c was not associated just with military conquests or mass migrations, but also with gradual intrusion via trade routes and maybe associated with that also via political alliances, with some males taking advantage of that prestige to leave a larger than expected Y-DNA impact. Founder effects are very common in Y-DNA haplogroups, especially if they came to a land in association with some political, economic and/or military prestige.

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## Norvila

Colleagues,
Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
So the facts are:
-all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
-N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
-it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
-genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
-it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
I reject blame on nationalism as this arose in 19-20 c and we operate with much earlier historical facts.
My theory - soc.class that operated trade networks arose to the kingdoms in Russ, Litva and other European countries.

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## 50cal

> Colleagues,
> Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
> The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
> So the facts are:
> -all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
> -N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
> -it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
> -genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
> -it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
> ...


All of this is internalized mental masturbation based on pure speculation. You're trying to connect 3 or 4 dots out of millions of dots, because you've read something about those 4 little dots. That's not how scientific inquiry works. There are no hypotheses here.


There are over 100 million N carriers in China.
There are over 100 million N carriers in China.
There are over 100 million N carriers in China.

According to you logic, I guess there must have been a Neolithic trade route from Southern China to Northern Scandinavian hunter-gatherers that had something to do with the Yuan dynasty. What absolute nonsense!

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## Norvila

Thank you for a good point.
But you still do not explain shortcomings of existing theory, but try to downgrade new idea.
Let's assume world wide mass max of N is in China. How then 30M in Europe appeared throught tiny bottleneck of tribes settled in taiga?
All trade routes from China went via Kiev, Hungary same as huns and later mongol used.
But Hungary has almost 0 of N.
So how 21M of N in old Rus lands conected with 9M in rest of Europe?
Why in Finland, famous fur trade source of Rus wealth there are the same N as in Turkey?
How the 100M in China connected with 60% of N in India brahmans? 
There is attested culture spread from India to China not vice versa.
Could it be the same way N spread from Central Europe to Russ? 
F.e. Boii celtic tribe has been attested near Viena as Boiorum and had minting centre in Kalisz PL. 
They controlled amber and fur trade routes during the roman times and probably moved North East during the huns.
They would be a ruling class there the same as bojars were in Russ later.

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## Norvila

Tatars are the biggest ethnic group in former old Russ territory has 0.54M of N or about 1/3 of Finland with Karela.
It's interesting their language distribution reduces to the East of Volga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars...uage_World.png
It's attested their participation in Jermak expedition together with litva. 
It could the source of N in the Northern tribes.

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## laint

> Tatars are the biggest ethnic group in former old Russ territory has 0.54M of N or about 1/3 of Finland with Karela.
> It's interesting their language distribution reduces to the East of Volga
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars...uage_World.png
> It's attested their participation in Jermak expedition together with litva. 
> It could the source of N in the Northern tribes.



I guess the answers to your question are already out there in form of tree for Baltic Finns:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

As far as it goes for Lithuanians and Latvians - they were one united tribe before moving into Latvia and Lithuania and they had heavy mixing with Finns(more related to Komi-Mari-Mordvian group) somewhere upstream of Daugava and that is the main source of N for Baltic. Just like modern people, also ancient people moved around a lot. Estonians differ from those two, as main source of N y-dna there comes from Finland.

Nope, there is different view on current N y-dna spread and it differs from the one that is in Europe. Please do some basic research first:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231 - this also contains map for routes of N y-dna into Siberia and later to Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization



There are main possible sources for N y-DNA in Turkey:
1. vikings, who served in Byzantine. Probably as an elite mercenary troops, but they were not that many.
2. according to wiki N1a1a1a1b2-A9408 and N1a2b3-B525 are the groups, that are mainly spread in Turkey and they differ from Baltic N y-dna as a distinct branches - also they are spread from as far as China, so this must be very recent arrival of those genes via nomads through steppe.

Tatars consist of many assimilated tribes, that were not Tatars originally, so what is the point of mixing them in? Language =/= genetics, as any person can learn new language and even forget native tongue, but person can't change ancestry, that comes with genes, unless heavy artificial gene editing is involved.

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## Ygorcs

> Colleagues,
> Could I propose using arguments instead of just "I think..." expressions?
> The hypotheses compete against each other how well they explain know facts.
> So the facts are:
> -all N distribution is along the trade routes with max living population in Russia and Ukraine.
> -N population in Turkey despite of the turbulent history almost identical to Finland with stable population.
> -it's easy to spread gene in the small tribe comparing to big population in the wide territory.
> -genes tends to spread easier from higher developed societies to lower
> -it's unexplained yet how gene N could travel over the Siberia forest to Finland, E. Germany and Turkey with established theory.
> ...


Yes, my proposal is that people understand that their arguments are not objective truth, especially not if they aren't the authors of a relevant and methodoligically sound scientific study on the matter, and therefore they humbly remember that, even if they use well substantiated arguments, it's still just what they think. That's my personal suggestion.

We could take your hypothesis more seriously if you explain to us why absolute numbers would matter than relative numbers when we know that the human population experienced a huge (but unbalanced) demographic boom of more than 35x its former numbers from 2000 years ago (and the initial N1c expansion certainly predates that by much). A conclusion just can't be correct if its very premise is not demonstrably correct. Some populations notoriously increased much, much more than others, especially if the comparison is between civilized subtropical and hot-summer temperate lands and very northerly and cold rural lands.

Nobody disputes that N1c may have been spread partially along trade routes... but the trade routes you're mentioning date to less than 1500 years ago, and by that time N1c had been present in Europe since thousands of years earlier. N1c may have increased in frequency in some areas (possibly near the Baltic coast for example) more via male-biased elite dominance with trade and military prestige. And it's possible the trade networks spread by and via Kievan Rus' and other Slavic-Baltic-Uralic-mixed Slacivized kingdoms in the Middle Ages helped increase N1c's frequency even more... But I doubt that explains its initial expansion into Northeastern Europe. As for N1c in Turkey, it's clearly more easily linked to the Turkic immigration there than anything else.

Besides, numbers matter really much, much less than the investigation of the distribution and chronological sequence of the subclades and especially the more basal forms upstream of those subclades. Haplogroups boom and bust very easily.

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## Ygorcs

> Thank you for a good point.
> But you still do not explain shortcomings of existing theory, but try to downgrade new idea.
> Let's assume world wide mass max of N is in China. How then 30M in Europe appeared throught tiny bottleneck of tribes settled in taiga?
> All trade routes from China went via Kiev, Hungary same as huns and later mongol used.
> But Hungary has almost 0 of N.
> So how 21M of N in old Rus lands conected with 9M in rest of Europe?
> Why in Finland, famous fur trade source of Rus wealth there are the same N as in Turkey?
> How the 100M in China connected with 60% of N in India brahmans? 
> There is attested culture spread from India to China not vice versa.
> ...


N1c - N1c, not "generic" N - has _already_ been found in the northeasternmost part of Europe, near the Arctic, in BRONZE AGE European DNA samples. It was in those "primitive cold lands" away from civilization and big trade routes well before it was found elsewhere in the ancient DNA distribution we have found until now. Therefore, no, N1c does not need to have come via trade routes much to the south of Northeastern Europe (North Russia, Finland, Baltic countries), where even now most of the higher proportions of N1c are found as well as most of the phylogenetic tree of "European" N1c. And the arrival of N1c into Europe certainly predates those medieval trade routes of Slavs and Turks by thousands of years.

It just seems to me that you can't accept the idea that "primitive" hunter-gatherers, pastoralists and incipient farmers from a very northern and underdeveloped land in Northeastern Europe and, earlier, in Siberia could've spread all this N1c into Europe. I honestly wonder why that sounds so unbelievable to you considering how Indo-European steppe tribes, Turks, Mongols, Arabians and so many other comparbaly underdeveloped peoples could expand their genetics and languages so widely _even if_ they were much less wealthy and civilized than most of the people they conquered.

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## Norvila

Thank you for the hints.
And sorry for mixing 2 topics – trade routes and weighted mass center of N.

Genghis Khan started from cooperation with foreign merchants early in his career, even before uniting the Mongols. His empire expansion via trade routes is a good illustration and could be analogue model to the genes spread. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ..._Mongol_Empire
China had one of the best road system with relay messengers system.
Merchants with accompanied guards and craftsmen were most frequently traveled parties.

I propose to use weight mass approach on genes spread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass
In this perspective center of gravity for N in Europe are Rurikid and Gedimind empires that arose along trade routes. Not sure about China, but it could be the same.
*E. Dunkel tree has interesting proportions. “Finns” has half of the mutations and resulted up to 2.33M(?) total (FI, S, N, EE), meanwhile Rurikid and Gedimind has very little mutations on his map, but their territories resulted 20M of N today.* This probably means genes spread and/or population growth along the trade routes were much faster than in the isolated communities. This confirms: 
- organized developed societies contribute better genes spread than primitives. 
- most of the genes spread happened during the historical times.

So I think we can agree on obvious – trade routes helps spread of genes better than forested landscape as taiga.

BTW I don’t see the N of Central Europe and Turkey on Dunkel’s map.

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## Norvila

I suppose this is a perfect match with the silk road

N1a1a1a1b2-A9408 _China,[1]_ _Turkey,[1][27] Lebanon_[7_][3]Croatia,[1][27] Hungary[1]_
N1a2b3-B525 _Afghanistan, Arabs,_ _Turkey, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Mongols, Slovakia, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, 
_
and with fur trade routes 
N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 _Found with high frequency among Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Swedish Saami, Karelians, Nenetses, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs_[3]
N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936,CTS10082　_Found with high frequency among Finns, Vepsa, Karelians, Swedish Saami, northwestern Russians, Bashkirs, and Volga Tatars,



_

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## laint

Silk road is nowhere near steppes, where those N y-dna spread. Mongols invaded areas, that had Silk road during end of Silk roads existence.
It is rather difficult to move trade goods in steppe as there are no natural obstacles to defend trading posts against mobile robbers etc - also steppe does not fall into direct route from China to western civilization. What are you refering to is actually Nomad Highway - in ~600AD it changed direction to flow towards west. Silk road was on sea and on land and on land it went through mountainous areas far from nomads, who populated steppes.


Fur trade has any sense, if there is demand for them. The only fur trade topics I know are viking traders, who went to east to get those furs. It is rather too small impact to make on local population. Anyway - most of the spread of y-dna has nothing to do with trade and happened before trade routes came in existence. Basically this topic is not viable to explain all the movements of N y-DNA.


Dunkels tree contain Balkan y-dna N2(Y6503) - there are no specific central European N, as there is none. I believe there should be most SNP names of all N y-dna. You just have to connect those IDs by yourself and for that you need to learn more about the namings of those subgroups and wiki only uses some part of them.

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## Norvila

Shall we check the facts first before replying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
Silk road was enforced with the army posts, merchants traveled accompanied. 
Identical system existed on Roman roads all the way until Pony express used in US.

"The Chinese were also strongly attracted by the tall and powerful horses (named "Heavenly horses") in the possession of the Dayuan (literally the "Great Ionians", the Greek kingdoms of Central Asia), which were of capital importance in fighting the nomadic Xiongnu. The Chinese subsequently sent numerous embassies, around ten every year, to these countries and as far as Seleucid Syria. "Thus more embassies were dispatched to Anxi [Parthia], Yancai [who later joined the Alans ], Lijian [Syria under the Greek Seleucids], Tiaozhi (Mesopotamia), and Tianzhu [northwestern India]... As a rule, rather more than ten such missions went forward in the course of a year, and at the least five or six." (_Hou Hanshu_, Later Han History).These connections marked the beginning of the Silk Road trade network that extended to the Roman Empire.[42]
The Han army regularly policed the trade route against nomadic bandit forces generally identified as Xiongnu. Han general Ban Chao led an army of 70,000 mounted infantry and light cavalry troops in the 1st century CE to secure *the trade routes, reaching far west to the Tarim basin*. Ban Chao expanded his conquests across the Pamirs to the shores of the Caspian Sea and the borders of Parthia.[44] It was from here that the Han general dispatched envoy Gan Ying to Daqin (Rome).[45] The Silk Road essentially came into being from the 1st century BCE, following these efforts by China to consolidate a road to the Western world and India, both through direct settlements in the area of the Tarim Basin and diplomatic relations with the countries of the Dayuan, Parthians and Bactrians further west. The Silk Roads were a "complex network of trade routes" that gave people the chance to exchange goods and culture.[46]" 
"*Furs played an important role in* *early trading, as they were valuable enough to be transported over long distances.* *The demand of the furs in the Middle East led to early long-distance trade with Central and Upper Volga regions.* It was the silver from the world of Islam arriving in the are in payment. ... The Caucasian trade route then declined from the early 11th century onwards... The Wester European markets developed strongly at the time....Easter The _Kufic material_ was _replaced_ by _Frie__sian_ (_German_) _material_ at the _beginning_ of the _11th century_, and with the _markets moving west_, the _western source areas became more interesting_ in terms of fur acquisition, so that *Lake Onega, shors of Lake Ladoga, Carelia, Eastern Finland and Lapland were included into this activity* ."Noonan T. S. 1984 pp. 156 Jukka Korpela– 2008

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## laint

> Shall we check the facts first before replying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road
> Silk road was enforced with the army posts, merchants traveled accompanied.


The only buildings you could build in steppe where Mongols lived, were yurts which could be warmed by burning horseshit. How were you going to enforce them? Maybe you should check facts again - those Silk road fortifications were located between mountain passes and a lot further south from N y-dna spread we are having conversation about. Silk road and what are you trying to look for are spread well apart. Also, did Silk Road spread N? Look on map of Silk Road and then on spread of N. Do some math. 

As for fur trading - since Germanic people were the driving force, it would help mainly to spread Germanic genes. Backflow would be secondary effect and we don't see N y-dna from those times in Britain at all - at least not from those fur trading times. Why I'm mentioning Britain? Because Germanic people went there as well and even later they were part of Hanseatic league and that trade route didn't do anything to spread N. Maybe concentrate on finding more examples, that fail, before presenting trade routes as the main factor. Besides - even nowadays not all people are traders... even if they travel a lot more than ancient people.

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## Norvila

Silk road, Tarim basin "By studying the variation of _SLC24A5_ sequences among a diverse set of individuals, we show that the light skin associated allele in South Asians is identical by descent to that found in Europeans."
https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003912
Litv- placenames
Attachment 10585

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## laint

> Silk road, Tarim basin "By studying the variation of _SLC24A5_ sequences among a diverse set of individuals, we show that the light skin associated allele in South Asians is identical by descent to that found in Europeans."
> https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003912
> Litv- placenames
> Attachment 10585



Tarim basin mummies are R1a.
South Asia = India and Iran. For South Asia and Europe unifying is R1a.


How is that even relevant to topic? N1c spread by trade routes...

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## Norvila

Thank you for being opponent
Rurikid project has about 20% of members with R1a. Radiwillow magnates are both N and R1a.
Upper part of Dneper has concentration of Baltic antonyms also highest % of R1a.
Novgorod controlled areas has also concentration of Baltic antonyms and highest % of N.
*Hetero-genetic social class on trade routes always expands faster than mono-genetics tribes in the northern woods. So N expansion trace via highest % communities is less likely. 
That was my statement of the post.*

R1a-Z280, R1a-M458, N, I2a considered Balto-Slavic as per post had unusual expansion on the trade routes in E.Germany. Also Tarim basin people on the the trade routes has mixture of R1a and N.
Attachment 10597

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## Norvila

“It doesn’t matter whether a man is a better hunter, owns more land, or more livestock—*men with high social status had more children* compared to men with low status.” says Adrian Jaeggi, an anthropologist at Emory University who focuses on primate and human behavioral ecology. https://www.futurity.org/men-status-...ion-1258742-2/
Let's model cooperation - I2a has skills and access to the trade markets, N - access to the resources in form of furs, R1a - in form of agriculture skills or products and trade routes.
Participants makes trade, share profit and gets higher soc.status in the communities they live or visiting therefore better reproductive possibilities.

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## Norvila

Another example with Genghis Khan?
“Lots of men have lots of sons, by chance. But what normally doesn’t happen is the sons have a high probability of having lots of sons themselves. You have to have a reinforcing effect,” says Jobling. Establishment of such successful lineages often depends on social systems that allow powerful men to father children with multitudes of women.
Three lineages dating to more recent times were all linked to nomadic groups in northeast China and Mongolia. These included the lineages linked to Genghis Khan and Giocangga, plus a third line dating to around ad 850.
All three lineages seem to have expanded westwards, possibly along the Silk Road trade route. 
Jobling says that *these civilizations could have fostered dominant male lineages after the sons of a fecund founder decamped to satellite outposts, where they, in turn, fathered powerful descendants.*
https://www.nature.com/news/genghis-...tition-1.16767
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.XClNgVOxU0M

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## Norvila

Direct paralel. 
How many descendants had litva decamped Novgorod outposts in the North from 1175 *«Литва встала на Корелу»*? http://karel.su/230-litva-vstala-na-korelu.html
Narimantas or Narymunt (baptized Gleb, born in 1277 or just before 1300 (according to Wasilewski 1992) – 2 February 1348) was the second eldest son of Gediminas, Grand Duke of Lithuania. During various periods of his life, *he ruled Pinsk and Polatsk*. In 1333 he was invited by Novgorod's nobles to rule and *protect territories in the north, Ladoga, Oreshek and Korela*.[1] *He continued the tradition of Lithuanian mercenary service north of Novgorod on the Swedish border that lasted until Novgorod's fall to Moscow in 1477*.[2]
prisoner. The Muscovite ruler, Ivan Kalita, ransomed him from Tatars, *keeping him as hostage in Moscow for a few years*.
Narimantas travelled to Jani Beg, Khan of the Golden Horde, asking for support against Algirdas. Though he failed to solicit support, he is rumoured to *have married a Tatar princess*.[3] (possibly as second wife.) 
His documented descendants include Princes Kurakin, Galitzine, Khovansky, Korecki.[1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narimantas

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## Norvila

Any hints who are individuals in green area at the left of Dunkel's tree and who caused star cluster chromosomes Z16980 in the center. http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg
It's similar to star clusters associated with ruling dynasties
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.XClNgVOxU0M

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## Norvila

Wow. G.Dunkel states N DNA in Central Europe originated in Lithuania.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/A...s-ver.3.0..pdf
Attachment 10599 
https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ computed results indicates connections between DNA in Finland and Silk road locations. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../activity-feedAttachment 10600
Attachment 10601
some of them matches with Litv- placenames Attachment 10602

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## 50cal

Y6075 in Central Europe is most likely associated with Early Slavic migrations. We're talking about 1500-2000 BP. You know, the Great Migration period. It is well known that they spread from Dnieper Southwards. It could come from Bogaczewo culture, which was influenced by the Przeworsk culture (a Germanic/Slavic hybrid). In any case, it's got nothing to do with Lithuania, Lithuanians or any dynasties since Y6075 originated 2700 BP.

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## Norvila

https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ graphs match spread of N locations with the trade routes and connect with the Silk road locations.

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## 50cal

Are you OK? Do you have some mental health issues? What trade routes existed 8,000 years ago in post-glacial Northern Europe?

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## Norvila

Thank you, I'm O.K.
Have you noticed time period you can adjust on the right side?

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## Norvila

It appears mongols also were highly involve in trade routes. 
"... there was a treaty signed around 1221(between the Venetian and Mongol empires). It’s not clear to me how much is known about the treaty proper, but the sense I have of it is that it was a commercial agreement. In return for exclusive trading rights around the Black Sea, Venice would make payments to the Mongol empire. It has been suggested that the Mongols gained intelligence about what was going on in Europe, and most usefully about the chaotic political situation in Russia, but that sounds like an incidental side-effect of ongoing contact between Venice and the Mongols, not specific terms of the treaty. Either way, the Mongols held up their end, maintaining good trading relations with the Venetians while sacking ports used by Venice’s rivals."

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## 50cal

Dude, get a job

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## Ygorcs

> https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ graphs match spread of N locations with the trade routes and connect with the Silk road locations.


The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.

Anyway, the Silk Road is _waaaaaay too recent_ to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.

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## Norvila

Silk road has existed in Roman times and most likely before https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route 

Alexander campaign went via Lydia (where there are same number of N carriers today as in Finland) to India (where N has 60% of brahmans) https://www.bible-history.com/maps/alexander_campaigns.html

I haven't noticed N between finds of Большой Олений остров 
Mitochondrial haplogroups C*, C5, U5a, U5a1, U4a1, Z1a, D* and T* were identified in fossil remains of the population. According to scientists, the greatest genetic similarity with samples from the Island was shown by modern Siberian populations, mainly *in the Yenisei River basin*. Presumably, the population of the Island arrived to the Kola Peninsula 3,500 years ago* from Central Siberia*, https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003296

It's more likely N spread from South to North via Siberia rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_River_Routes#/media/File:Siberiariverroutemap.png

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## 50cal

> The vast majority of the lines of "N expansion" from East Asia pass much to the north of the Silk Road, via Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. That's not a strong correlation at all. The Silk Road's final destination was in the East Mediterranean, where Europeans fought many battles to have access to the "oriental trade". Very few arrows go through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, via Iran, into the East Mediterranan. The vast majority of the "movements" of N seem to be much more northerly, from China right to North-Central Asia and South Siberia and then spreading and diversifying on all directions in Eastern Europe. I think you're seeing what you want to see in the map.
> 
> Anyway, the Silk Road is _waaaaaay too recent_ to have been responsible for the spread of N in Europe. N1c (not N, N1c proper) was already found in the northeasternmost part of Europe (Bolshoi Oleny Ostrov) in DNA from ~3500 years ago, and it must've been present elsewhere in or near Eastern Europe even earlier.


I admire your enthusiasm, but the guy's clearly a nutter. Reading him is like going to a psych ward.

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## Norvila

Z4908-L550 (Rurikid, Gedimind) migrations in 4000 years period
Attachment 10622
Attachment 10623

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## Norvila

Novgorod fur traders expansion north
"It is interesting to remember that Novgorod had started to expand towards the
north in the 13th century. Novgorod that had during the 12th-13th centuries become
an important center for fur trade expanded northwards and built a network of
*strongholds along the Northern Russian rivers*. Novgorodians had probably reached
the White Sea in the 12th century and settled first by the estuaries of the rivers Dvina
and Onega. From these locations they went on trading and trapping expeditions to
the Kola Peninsula and gradually established certain rights on the southwestern
coast of the peninsula."
"3 Juni 1326, Diplomatarium Norvegicum 1874, 101–102. It is, however, generally considered that
the treaty maintained the border at *Malangen*. Rafn 1852, 449, 481; Vilkuna 1980, 649."
Attachment 10624

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## Norvila

Parallel with french fur traders spreading by Mississippi river and tributaries, settling and mixing with Indians 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqUSY59Kilk&t=6s

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## Norvila

Migration north.
The ancestors of Yakuts were Kurykans who migrated from Yenisey river to Lake Baikal and were subject to a certain Mongolian admixture prior to migration [8][9][10] in the 7th century. The Yakuts originally lived around Olkhon and the region of Lake Baikal. Beginning in the 13th century they migrated to the basins of the Middle Lena, the Aldan and Vilyuy rivers under the pressure of the rising Mongols. 
The Kurykans (Russian: Курыканы) were a Siberian tribe that inhabited the Lake Baikal area near the Mongol border in the 6th century[1] Early Kurykans migrated from Yenisey river.[2]

Kurykans were largely displaced from their ancestor territories in the 6th c. AD. According to the inscription of the Bilge Kagan, Uch-Kurykans (Union of Three Kurykan tribes, Guligan of the Chinese chronicles) sent their ambassadors to the Bumyn Kagan funeral in 552 and/or his brother Istemi Kagan in 576. Kurykans are listed among the enemies of Ilterish Kagan (r. 682–694), father of Bilge Kagan (r. 717–734). Ilterish Kagan campaigned against Uch-Kurykans 47 times, and gave 20 battles. Kurykans were not the natives of their Western Baikal territory, their distinct burial tradition appears suddenly in the 6th c. Quite logically, they appeared in the Baikal refuge as exiles from some distant place, and equally logically they were a fraction of the larger tribe.

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## Ygorcs

> Silk road has existed in Roman times and most likely before https://www.britannica.com/topic/Silk-Road-trade-route 
> 
> Alexander campaign went via Lydia (where there are same number of N carriers today as in Finland) to India (where N has 60% of brahmans) https://www.bible-history.com/maps/alexander_campaigns.html
> 
> I haven't noticed N between finds of Большой Олений остров 
> Mitochondrial haplogroups C*, C5, U5a, U5a1, U4a1, Z1a, D* and T* were identified in fossil remains of the population. According to scientists, the greatest genetic similarity with samples from the Island was shown by modern Siberian populations, mainly *in the Yenisei River basin*. Presumably, the population of the Island arrived to the Kola Peninsula 3,500 years ago* from Central Siberia*, https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1003296
> 
> It's more likely N spread from South to North via Siberia rivers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_River_Routes#/media/File:Siberiariverroutemap.png


No way Brahmins have 60% N frequency. That's just totally incorrect. As for numbers, I'll just ignore that. Numbers mean nothing when we know the human population increased tremendously in the last 2000 years and it did so in different paces from region to region. Proportions do matter. As for Lydia, it seems pretty likely that most of the N there arrived with the Turks, as similar clades of N are found in Central Asian Turks - so it's quite recent in that region.

Yes, the earliest N1c in Fennoscandia was found in Bolshoi Oleni Ostrov. And it's much older than any influence of the Silk Road in Europe. Read: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/03/22/285437

Additionally, N1c was also found in a DNA sample from the 3rd millennium BC (~4000 years ago) in Serteya, Russia, near Belarus and Latvia. Again, that presence of N1c exactly in Northeastern Europe where it's most frequent now existed way before any of the events you're talking about took place. Read: https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed

This is the distribution of the N haplogroup samples found in the ancient DNA analyses as of now. The distribution of the haplogroup was clearly very "northern" and mainly Siberian/North Asian... Its first samples (not the N1c found in Europe, though) are found in Neolithic Liao civilization, i.e. northeast China near the Russian border. And of course it just had to move westward and be "lucky" or successful to expand a lot in Northeastern Europe. I wonder why you feel the need to find much a more convoluted (but presumably more "fabulous") explanation for what must've happened.



No ancient sample with N haplogroup was found anywhere in West Asia and in all of Europe before 3500 years ago, and when it finally appears it's near Scandinavia and associated with heavy Siberian autosomal input, not anywhere else, certainly not in Lydia (Turkey) and other parts of the East Mediterranean. If N was strongly associated with the Silk Road, we'd never expect the regions most influenced by them to be located in the northeasternmost portion of Europe, because that was at best an utter periphery to those traders and travelers who mostly passed through Central Asia with the Mediterranean Basin as their main destination. You seem to be overestimating the demographic impact of traders too much.

Yes, of course N seems to have come to Northeast Europe from the more habitable parts of Siberia (lower latitudes), but that does not mean at all that the Silk Road had something to do with it. It seems to me that you just can't accept a less "glorious" or "civilized" origin for the spread of your haplogroup, God knows why... But the real likelihood is that N1c predates any civilization in Northeastern Europe and any and was already a "northern haplogroup" coming from the east (Siberia) to the other side of the Urals and expanding later from somewhere near the Urals with a new mixed population, mostly of European descent but also with some Siberian ancestry. The autosomal linkage also suggests that the population that carried it was not "from the south" at all, it was just another Siberian population closely related to other taiga dwellers. And that may have happened before 3500-4000 years ago. The Silk Road and other southern trade routes have nothing to do with its arrival in Europe and subsequent expansion.

My advice is: read the papers and the findings (especially ancient DNA) and try to derive conclusions from the evidences, not the contrary, which is trying to find evidences to prove your preconceived conclusions.

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## Norvila

Thank you for the advice and material shared.

It’s stated there:
“…we gain further insights into the genetic history of the Saami in Finland, by showing that during the Iron Age, close genetic relatives of modern Saami lived in an area much further south than their current geographic range.

Ten of the eleven ancient individuals from this study fall on this Uralic cline, with
the exception of *one individual from Levänluhta* (JK2065), who is instead
projected *closer to modern Lithuanian, Norwegian and Icelandic populations*.

the Siberian genetic component is maximized in the Saami, and can
also be seen in similar proportions in the historical Saami from Chalmny Varre
and in two of the Levänluhta individuals. The third Levänluhta individual,
JK2065, falling also in an outlier position on the PCA, lacks the Siberian
component.

*Y-chromosomal haplotype N1c1a1a (N-L392) in individuals BOO002 and*
*BOO004. Notably, this is the earliest known occurrence of Y-haplogroup N1c in Fennoscandia.*

As shown by these multiple lines of evidence, the pattern of genetic ancestry
observed in north-eastern Europe is the result of admixture between
populations from Siberia and populations from Europe.”


Bolshoy Oleny Island is typical crossroad of cultures on the waterways as it obvious from the archeology: Excavations uncovered 23 burials in shallow pits; among them were the *burials in wooden boxes*, as well as those using tarred leather wrappings. There are two instances of cremation. The inventory includes tools made of stone and bone, such as arrowheads, daggers , awls, needles, and fish hooks. A *copper arrowhead, and a sculpture of the head of an elk* were found. 5 fragments of "wafer" ceramics were also found.

Islands typically settled by sea farers to avoid conflict with local population on the land.
So N1c1a1a could come from coastal Norway to anywhere south by rivers.

Levänluhta located on the major river and trade route in Finland. So untypical individuals most likely settled by marriage with locals or left genetic trace by travel the same way French fur traders in America.

So I think these finds more favor spread by trade routes than via northern taiga. 

Also it’s very strange to read such “scientific” article were just from 11 widely geographically distributed 3500 years old samples drown bold conclusion connecting genetic migration with languages and even present nationalities.

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## Norvila

I appreciate for sharing remarkable publication 
Archaeology of lake settlements IV-II mill. BC/ Mazurkevich A. 2014
Y DNA proportions R1a1 (50%), R1b1 (19%), N1c (25%) и I1a (6%)

So far from the archeological background in publication lacustrine pile dwellings culture in upper N.Dvina and Volga was clear *intrusion* together with N1C inhabitants found there.
Some quotes:
The lacustrine pile dwellings, which appeared at the first half of the 4th millennium cal. BC, *were unique sites among the Middle Neolithic cultures of the forest zone of northeastern*
*Europe**.* The territory of pile dwelling expansion includes the
basin of the upper (Serteya II, Usviaty IV, and Dubokrai V) and
middle Western Dvina River (sites of the Krivinsky peat bog
in the territory of Belarus). *To the east and north of the Dnepr–*
*Dvina** region there were sites with Pit–Comb pottery, to the*
*south — sites with Rhomb–Pit pottery, and to the west — the*
*Late Narva Culture.* Judging from published data, pile dwellings
may also exist on the northeastern Baltic shores of Sarnate and
Shvjantoji.

Contacts with ancient inhabitants of other regions, sometimes
rather remote one, can be traced in the materials
of Dnepr-Dvina basin (Mazurkevich et al. 2009). A particular
culture appeared here in Middle-Late Neolithic, which
was formed on the local base of cultures of Eastern European
forest zone and also absorbed some traits of archaeological
cultures from other regions. It can be traced in different categories
of artifacts — appearance of flint daggers, Baltic amber
(Мазуркевич 2010), and the formation of new architectural
form — pile-dwellings.
The similarity in decoration, technological methods and
morphology typical for synchronous sites, located in different
archaeological microregions of Upper Dvina area, 40–120
km remote from each other, may indicate one community who
lived here.
Usviatskaya culture has in its base numerous elements
of Funnel beaker culture, and in the first half — middle of the
III mil. BC was influenced by bearers of early Cord ware culture,
as well as of Upperdneprovskaya culture, and those of more remote
regions. Finds of pottery with curvilinear geometrical decor,
vessels with trays and their imitation, find of a clay stamp —
pintadera *testify relations with the Balkans*.

pile-dwellings of northern Italy, which are part of the Alpine pile-dwellings phenomenon.
pile-dwelling timbers in Italy spans from the end of the 4th millennium BC (from Isolino Virginia itself) until the end of the 14th century BC (from Iseo Brescia). Martinelli N. 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehis...round_the_Alps

Unfortunately Martinelli missed most famous pile dwelling – Venetian city http://theapprenticeandthejourneyman...ation-of-wood/

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## Norvila

Spread of the art in E.Europe connected with cultures in Central by trade?
С конца IV — начала III тыс. до н.э. отмечается расцвет искусства малых форм: мелкой антропоморфной и зооморфной скульптуры из кремня, кости и рога в лесной зоне Восточной Европы (кат. 6-20). Начиная со второй половины IV тыс. до н.э. *её западные области испытывали постоянное влияние со стороны среднеевропейских культур с производящим хозяйством*.
Мазуркевич А.Н. 2010 Балтийский янтарь в культурах

The horizon, where it was found, is dated to VIII-V c. BC (Короткевич
2013). Sample № А5 was found in burial mound with *cremation*
of the burial ground Devichi gory near the lake Sennitsa, that
*is attributed to the middle age culture of long barrows*.
Due to Ychromosome markers, bone remains from the sites Serteya
VIII, Anashkino and one sample from the site Serteya II were
attributed to haplogroup R1a1, and the second sample from the
site Serteya II and burial ground Devichi gory — to *haplogroup N1c* (table 3). 

The origins of the cremation rite are commonly believed to be in Hungary, where it was widespread since the first half of the second millennium BC.[3] The neolithic Cucuteni–Trypillia culture of modern-day northeastern Romania and Ukraine were also practicing cremation rituals as early as approximately 5500 BC. Some cremations begin to be found in the Proto-Lusatian and Trzciniec culture.
Urnfield culture had also numerous pile dwellings on lakes of southern Germany and Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

*Long barrows* examples developed in Iberia and western France during the mid-fifth millennium BCE. The tradition then spread northwards, into the British Isles and then the Low Countries and Southern Scandinavia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_barrow

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## Norvila

New article
'' We can clearly see the development of the production industry from the studies that have been carried out about 3,000 to 3,500 years ago, and this wave of entry is from the Ukrainian regions, the so-called Jamna culture areas. ''
Wax adds that it is interesting to note that the migration study shows the direction of the culture of the producer farm directly from the Black and Caspian Sea steppe zones: '2900. the year before our era is the time when, in the eastern Baltic, we already have cattery and battle axes with their producing farms, and it's most interesting that
''now, with the help of genetics, it has been discovered, however, that these entrants come from the steppes, from the southeast. There was no such clarity before, opinions shared. ''
Researchers call the territory of Latvia the crossroads of ancient inhabitants, but the results also provide an overview of the migration of indigenous peoples in this part of Europe, which, for some reason, bypasses the territory of Latvia.
The main findings of the internationally appreciated international study on Latvia are that the manufacturing industry came from the south-east, not from the south-west, as it has been thought to date; while the arrival of the Baltic tribes is due to the late Neolithic (around 2900 BC) and not to the earlier times.
https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/dzive--sti...puses.a306562/

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## Norvila

So gene spread was not via taiga or tundra
Abstract
While the series of events that shaped the transition between foraging societies and food producers are well described for Central and Southern Europe, genetic evidence from Northern Europe surrounding the Baltic Sea is still sparse. Here, we report genome-wide DNA data from 38 ancient North Europeans ranging from ~9500 to 2200 years before present. Our analysis provides genetic evidence that hunter-gatherers settled Scandinavia via two routes. We reveal that the first Scandinavian farmers derive their ancestry from Anatolia 1000 years earlier than previously demonstrated. The range of Mesolithic Western hunter-gatherers extended to the east of the Baltic Sea, where these populations persisted without gene-flow from Central European farmers during the Early and Middle Neolithic. The arrival of steppe pastoralists in the Late Neolithic introduced a major shift in economy and mediated the spread of a new ancestry associated with the Corded Ware Complex in Northern Europe.
.....
two *Eastern Baltic individuals* associated with the Mesolithic Kunda Culture *show a very close affinity* to WHG in all our analyses (Fig. 2, Supplementary Figs. 1 and 2), with a significant contribution from ANE, as revealed by negative admixture _f_3 results involving a Palaeolithic *hunter-gatherer from Switzerland*, most closely related to WHG, and populations containing ANE ancestry
......
Archaeological evidence supports that the site Kivutkalns, which is represented by 10 of our individuals, was a major bronze-working centre located *on a trade route that opened to the Baltic Sea on the west and led inland* following the Daugava river31, where contact to surrounding populations might have been common.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

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## Norvila

With the Byzantine-Baltic contacts, the spread of the prestigious military fashion was possibly related and they can have been realized via Central Europe, the famous ‘Amber Route’ and further on through the system of the circumBaltic riverine and sea routes.
https://www.academia.edu/37839606/Ka...B4%D0%BE%D0%B2

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## Norvila

“dialects often show similarities along traditional traveling routes such as the great rivers in Northern Sweden, which start in the mountains at the Norwegian border and then follow a South-Easterly path towards the Bothnian Sea.“ Pettersson (1996)
Dipthongisation of languages occurred in whole Baltic sea region from the south of Schlezwig to the north of Botnia supposing because of the trading contacts
https://books.google.lt/books?id=PBK...sation&f=false

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## Norvila

"The Estonian first farmers of Corded Ware culture show high similarity in their autosomes with European hunter-gatherers, Steppe Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations, and European Late Neolithic/Bronze Age populations, while their X chromosomes are in addition equally closely related to European and Anatolian and Levantine early farmers. These findings suggest that the shift to intensive cultivation and animal husbandry in Estonia was triggered by the arrival of new people with predominantly Steppe ancestry but whose ancestors had undergone sex-specific admixture with early farmers with Anatolian ancestry." 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28256537

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## Norvila

From Caucasus to Lithuania?
Conclusion
Analysis of the allele frequency of GJB2 gene mutations revealed a high proportion of c. 313_326del14 (rs111033253) mutations in the GJB2-positive group suggesting its possible origin in Lithuanian forebears.
The allele frequency of c.35delG mutation (64.7 %) is consistent with many previously published studies in groups of affected individuals of Caucasian populations. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4761217/

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