# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

## Maciamo

I have scrutinised FamilyTreeDNA's Ireland Y-DNA Project and noticed that practically all the Irish surnames belonged to haplogroup R1b, while almost all members of other haplogroups had English, Scottish, or occasionally even Welsh surnames. 

The Germanic haplogroup R1b-U106 is also dominated by English and Lowland Scottish surnames, as is to be expected. 

Irish do turn up in some other haplogroups, but represent under 5% of the total. It has been estimated that the number of non-paternity events in most populations ranged from 2 to 15% - depending on how religious or sexually liberated the culture is. An average of 5% was estimated for the United Kingdom by the Institute of Human Genetics in Newcastle. 

The extremely rare R1b1* (P25), a very old branch of R1b thought to date back to the Palaeolithic period (in the Middle East of Central Asia) is virtually absent from Europe, except in Ireland, which has an unusually high frequency of 1% of the population. Interestingly, the surnames are very mixed, with roughly one third of Irish, one third of Scottish and one third of English names. Could it be that this haplogroup found its way to the British Isles as early as the Mesolithic or the Neolithic ?

Only one haplogroup outside R1b does have more native Irish surnames than imported ones : I2a. There had to be at least one other haplogroup pre-dating the Bronze-age arrival of R1b-P312 in Ireland. It would be almost unthinkable that the entire Neolithic male population of the island was wiped out by the R1b invaders. The most likely candidates were I2a (now called I2a1 in the ISOGG nomenclature), I2b (ISOGG I2a2) and G2a. I2a is the assumed lineage of Mesolithic southern Europeans, I2b of the Mesolithic Central Europeans, and G2a (and E1b1b ?) of the Neolithic farmers. 

One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ? The other question was how much impact did the G2a (and E1b1b) Neolithic farmers have in the British Isles. I expected that they had a considerable impact in Great Britain, but wasn't so sure about Ireland. 

Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

E1b1b is even more extreme, with only 5 native Irish surnames out of 96 members.

I counted 87 members of I2a (I-P37.2) or I2a1 in the Ireland Y-DNA Project, out of which approximately 30 were clearly non-Irish surnames. 

Based on the modern population, it can be said that the native Irish almost completely lack both G2a and I2b, but have a fair amount of I2a. 

*I2a is therefore the only haplogroup aside from R1b to have a majority of Irish surnames.* It is enough for me to consider that Ireland before the 9th century was probably exclusively populated by R1b (98%) and I2a (2%) lineages.

Once we have determined that these are the only ancient Irish haplogroups, we can estimate what was the real genetic impact of the Vikings, Normans, English and Scots on the modern Irish population. The project has 4700 members to this day, out of which 910 belong to other haplogroups than R1b or I2a. Within R1b, roughly 125 members belong to R1b-U106. Considering that R1b-L21 is as common in Britain as R1b-U106, it would be fair to add another 125 members to the count, which is also approximately the number of Germanic surnames turning up in the Irish R1b-L21.

*In total, that is 1160 foreign lineages out of 4700, or 24.7% of the Irish population*. This is far more than I expected. But of course that is only paternal lineages, which foreign invaders have surely spread much more abundantly than maternal lineages. I did not calculate the proportion of foreign autosomal DNA in the Irish gene pool, but I would guess between something like 15% (more in Northern Ireland and around Dublin, of course - perhaps over 30%).


The *break-up of Germanic lineages in Ireland* is also interesting, because quite different from that of England or Scotland, and much closer to that of Scandinavia. I counted approximately :

- hg I1 : 250 members (50%)
- hg R1a : 125 members (25%)
- hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (25%)

Nowadays, Sweden comes to closest to these proportions between the three main Germanic haplogroups. The Normans were of Danish origin, though modern Denmark has as much R1b as I1 and R1a combined. It's possible that the Norman nobility had a considerably higher percentage of I1 due to a founder effect. This also appears to be the case in Sicily.

That would mean that the 12th-century Normans had a remarkably big impact on the modern Irish gene pool - probably much more than the Lowland Scots and the English settlers who came from the 16th century onwards.

Another possibility is that Norwegian Vikings also had a considerable (and mostly unrecorded) impact on the Irish population. After all, it has been recently estimated that nearly on quarter of the modern Icelandic population carry Irish (or Highland Scottish) Y-DNA, and that the peak of R1b-L21 in Southwest Norway is also due to the import of Gaelic slaves to Norway in Viking times. So it would only be logical that the Norwegian only left a major genetic print on the Irish population. After all, many places in Ireland, including counties (Longford, Waterford, Wexford) have (Anglicised) Viking names.

If we add hg I2b into the mix, it looks even stranger :

- hg I1 : 250 members (35%)
- hg I2b : 225 members (31%)
- hg R1a : 125 members (17%)
- hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (17%)

Where did all that I2b come from ?

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## MOESAN

interesting
but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?

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## sparkey

Really interesting observations, Maciamo, thanks. I'm curious also as to how similar the patterns would be for the Welsh.




> One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ?


I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.

As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.

All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.

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## Maciamo

> interesting
> but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?


About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.

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## Maciamo

> I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.
> 
> Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.


I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.




> As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.
> 
> All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.


But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.

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## Keegah

> I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.


Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles. I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?

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## sparkey

> I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.


It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.




> But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.


I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.

Do you see any patterns?:

Some Irish Cont surnames:
Alford
Brown
Butler
Carr
Cloud
Colfer
Dougherty
Ennis
Galbreath
Hall
Hayde
Hogan
Humes
Hunter
Jackson
Johnson
Johnston
Kelly
Kilker
McGoogan
O'Driscoll
Patterson
Pollock
Rollins
Russell
Simpson
Spearin
Sterling
Stewart
Watson


Some Irish Isles M284+ surnames:
Agnew
Anderson
Arvin
Byrne
Callahan
Carroll
Cassidy
Conners
Corbett
Coyle
Crowley
Cullen
Dello
Diamond
Dunphy
Ferguson
Finucan
Fraser
Gillespie
Griffin
Gunning
Hart
Henry
Hession
Jackson
Kelly
Kilcoyne
Lavery
Lemon
Lindsey
Lough
Malone
McGimpsey
McGinnis
McInerney
McKeen
McKinstry
McManus
McVay
McWhaw
Mullin
Norrill
O'Neill
Quinn
Rice
Rogan
Smyth
Stewart
Walsh
Waters

Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.

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## sparkey

> Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles.


Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.

It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.

Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.




> I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?


I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.

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## Yorkie

> Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.
> 
> It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.
> 
> Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.




Sparkey,
You mention me previously. Well, to be honest I've changed my tune about I2a1b2 a little. Much as I respect Nordtvedt, his age estimates are just that- estimates. I've talked to both Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster about the age and origins of L161 I2a1b2 [or 'Isles' as Ken Nordtvedt calls the 9 subclades]. Sykes in particular can see no evidence in terms of substantive dates that suggest I2a1b2 is so old in the isles, i.e, early post-LGM. In fact, both he and Forster see my I2a1b2 signature as most likely Anglo-Saxon in origin, or at least carried to England by that wave of invaders. Nordtvedt sees L161 as founded in northern Germany, so in a sense this might well add up. With regard to the Irish distribution of I2a1b2- perhaps the Belgae play a role here, i.e the Erainn and Fir Bolg. I am really not comfortable with the idea that I2a1b2 is always so ancient.

This is a tiny clade but all of the subclades-A1, A2 etc have some small presence over the north German plane. When Forster ran my English example of I2a1b2 through his database, the hotspot was actually northern Germany not Ireland.

Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.


Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.

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## Dalmat

Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?

One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference

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## Maciamo

> Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?
> 
> One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference


Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).

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## Dalmat

> Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).



I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.

Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry

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## Maciamo

> Sparkey,
> Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.


Obviously there were also French people of Gallo-Frankish descent among the Normans. This is especially apparent among the names of members of haplogroup E1b1b in Ireland (such as Fitzgerald, Fleming, French, Joyce, Roche, Rose) and a few J2 (like the ubiquitous Montgomery).




> Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.


I disagree with that. I would say that R1b-U106 is the true Germanic branch, justly because it is closely related to the Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of R1b. Haplogroup I1 and I2a2 are pre-Germanic, because they lived in Europe well before the Indo-European invasions. Germanic languages were probably also influenced by the R1a descendants of the Corded Ware culture, which explains some similarities with Balto-Slavic languages that the Italo-Celtic branch lacks. But Germanic being a Centum branch, it is categorised alongside Italo-Celtic rather than Balto-Slavic. I believe that Germanic culture only started when R1b-U106 moved up from Central Europe to North Germany and Scandinavia and blended with the I1, I2a2 and R1a people they encountered. Prior to that there was an Indo-European culture in the region (Corded Ware), but not one that can be defined as Germanic or Proto-Germanic.

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## Maciamo

> Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry


That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.

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## Dalmat

> That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.


Concept is the same, i don't see much difference.

I am interested of how did you make such conclusion about Ireland, when you can basically take any nation in the world as reference.

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## inver2b1

> It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.
> 
> Do you see any patterns?:
> 
> Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.


I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades. 
Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
One reason that R1b came to dominate might be that enough of it got into powerful gaelic families where males had concubines or a gaelic equivalent and had a lot of children who also went on to do the same.

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## sparkey

> I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.


Probably. I just took a random-ish sample, my list isn't complete.




> Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.


Agreed. In fact, I2a2a-M284 is interesting in how it's a mix of native Irish, Scottish, and English names. I guess that's evidence of ancient spread across all of those places. Probably, modern Irish carriers of M284+ have a wide range of dates when their patrilineal ancestors came to Ireland... from many years ago (it's still too hard to say when the earliest was) to the modern period. Contrast that to I2a1a-Gen, whose Irish carriers are basically 100% native Irish in their surnames; I2a1b2-Isles, which looks a little more balanced to native Irish to me (although plenty of non-Irish still, it's actually pretty comparable to I2a2a-M284... Yorkie also brings up some good points about I2a1b2); and I2a2a-Cont, which looks to have more English surnames to me. At least, those are the patterns I see. I'd be interested if anybody has better metrics than casually eyeballing the data.

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## inver2b1

There was a book on Scottish DNA out recently and I think they claimed M284 arose in Iberia, it may have been based on a small number of samples from Portugal but some have explained that away due to portugal and britain being military allies in recent history.
Isn't a problem with a lot of these analysis that it's mainly US samples that are used and in general the testees tend to come form a Isles background?

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## MOESAN

> About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.


thanks
(even if a little bit simplistic: L21 and U106 have statistical results today in England but that doesn't prove ancient ties or origins before arrival in England at old times) -

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## MOESAN

> I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.
> 
> Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry


the irish surnames(as hereditary) seam the older ones in western Europe and I think people did not change surnames so easily - (clans, pride...) - the Normans retained their previous names for the most, even if gaelized - 
the case of African slaves in USA is not the same at all - 

&: the subsequent lost of O' and Mac in surnames didn' t change the trunk of the name to drastically I rhink -

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## Keegah

> the irish surnames(as hereditary) seam the older ones in western Europe and I think people did not change surnames so easily - (clans, pride...) - the Normans retained their previous names for the most, even if gaelized - 
> the case of African slaves in USA is not the same at all - 
> 
> &: the subsequent lost of O' and Mac in surnames didn' t change the trunk of the name to drastically I rhink -


Very interested in what others, particularly those knowledgable about Irish history, have to say about this. My current geneaology efforts - concerning my father's line anyway - hinge on whether we are of Ulster Scot heritage or native Irish heritage. My surname is Lowland Scottish and Northern English, but my ancestors in Ireland seem to have been thoroughly integrated into the native Irish culture. Any input on this from people knowledgable on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Though I understand it would obviously warrant a different topic.

Also - thanks Sparkey for the reference to M284+. In the process of researching it.

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## inver2b1

Regarding Dunphy, if you search for them (assuming it's the same one) through a website "semargl me" (I haven't enough posts to put up a link) at 37 markers you get matches that seem English (or are some Norman) at a close enough distance to suggest recent migration.

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## sparkey

> Regarding Dunphy, if you search for them (assuming it's the same one) through a website "semargl me" (I haven't enough posts to put up a link) at 37 markers you get matches that seem English (or are some Norman) at a close enough distance to suggest recent migration.


That's interesting. I guess I'm having difficulty finding any particularly ancient (potential for Mesolithic continuity) M284+ in Ireland, then. Just about all of looks to be more recently from England or Scotland. The age of that clade in Britain still suggests to me that there likely was some I2a2a of some sort in Ireland during the Mesolithic, but maybe it all bottlenecked away in Ireland.

Assuming that Yorkie is also right about I2a1b2, the modern I2 carriers in Ireland whose patrilines have been around in just Ireland (no Britain allowed) for the longest continuous period of time seems to be *I2a1a-Gen*, represented by surnames like Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, Carberry, and O'Shea. That subclade, as already mentioned, seems to have gotten to the British Isles during the Neolithic. But they represent only about 15-20% of the I2a1 in Ireland, if the proportion of members in the I2a Project is representative.

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## Eochaidh

Francis J. Byrne in his book "Irish Kings and High Kings" has a pre-chapter about the origin of Irish surnames. Here are some notes from that. Pages xxxiii through xlii.

Ireland was earlier than other countries in adopting surnames. Even Wales and Scotland, who shared a common culture at that time, were later in adopting them.

From the time of the earliest Ogham in the 4th century, a gentilic (not familial) form had existed in the form of MOCU followed by a real or imaginary, male or female ancestor. This fell out of favor and was later confused with mac ui or "son of the son of", but this form was never used. There was also a rarely used female form dercu. The prominent families did not use this form.

Ecclesiastical families were the first to adopt surnames in the 8th century.

Most royal surnames derive from a 10th century ancestor, but a few may be older. These were the Ua then Ó form. 

The Mac surnames derive from an 11th century ancestor. Mac is really a contraction of Mac meic which means "son of the son of" and is an alternative for grandson. The great MacLochlain family was called Ua Lochlain and even Mac meic Lochlain from the 11th to 12th centuries.

It was often the case that the grandfather so honored was not really prominent, but that the grandsons had become so. In Ireland, a family had to be successful for three generations to move up in the world, so the grandfather received retroactive elevation.

Surnames were originally used only by Ecclesiastical, Royal and Bardic families, and then only within the Derbfhine or True Family within the larger. The Derbfhine was the unit of aristocratic rule in Ireland. For royal families, it was composed of all of the male descendants of the great grandfather of the current king. So it include his first and second cousins and assorted uncles.

Only later did all men take surnames which makes them less useful than would be liked, for tracing ancestry.

----------


## MOESAN

> Very interested in what others, particularly those knowledgable about Irish history, have to say about this. My current geneaology efforts - concerning my father's line anyway - hinge on whether we are of Ulster Scot heritage or native Irish heritage. My surname is Lowland Scottish and Northern English, but my ancestors in Ireland seem to have been thoroughly integrated into the native Irish culture. Any input on this from people knowledgable on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Though I understand it would obviously warrant a different topic.
> 
> Also - thanks Sparkey for the reference to M284+. In the process of researching it.


_a try concerning some surnames: waiting the help of somebody with accurate and vaster knowledge_
Irish and British surnames :
from some books :
« Normans » common surnames in Ireland :


BARRY from France via Wales, 1170
BLAKE from Wales, previously CADDELL, named 'the black', maybe not from France ?
BROWNE 'le brun' - VII°C.
BURKE/BOURKE	William descendants ; 'de Burgo' – XII°C.
BUTLER previously FITZWALTER name changed in 1177 ('chief butler' function, french « bouteiller »)
CUSACK anglo-norman 1211 from french Guienne (Aquitain) origin, gaelicized 
MAC IOSOG (Isaac 's son?)
DILLON from Brittany but came with the Anglo-Normans
FITZGERALD	'Maurice son of Gerald' - 1170
JOYCE from France via Brittain (supposed meaning 'joy')
LACY from France Lascy in Normandy via Brittain
NUGENT from France (more than a town)- with Normans via Brittain? XII°C.
PLUNKETT from France, but arrived via Denmark before the Normans

POWER 'de paor' ('pauvre = 'poor') from France via Brittain
ROCHE supposed from Flanders (french speaking area) arrived with the Normans via Wales (Roch Castle)
TAAFFE from Wales – 1196 (surely with Normans)
BARRETT from France, with Normans
COSTELLO(E)	branch of Normans NANGLE 'de Angulos' gaelicized as MAC OISDEALBH
JENNINGS branch of the BURKE
REDMOND norman origin
TOBIN french fromBrittany De St Aubyn (Normans)
WALL norman : De Valle, 'du val' 


WALSH 'welsh', 'britton' : name of a lot of Welshmen that accompagnied the Normans


for norman origin I think we can put :
FITZPATRICK, FITZGIBBON, FITZWILLIAM, FITZHUGH, FITZMAURICE, FITZIMMONS... + DESMOND, D'ARCY, REYNOLDS ?


_confusing names :_
COLLINS 1- gaelic O COILEAN ('whelp' or 'young creature') > anglicized
2- british later immigrant, the surname is common among Scottish people and common enough among Welsh people, from french christian name Colin from grecian Nicolas
HIGGINS 1- gaelic O hUIGIN ('knowledge') set of the O'NEILLS >> O'HIGGINS
2- british surname (what geographically distribution ? Some HIGGINSON in Scotland...
LYNCH 1- (Galway) : norman(where from?)
2- (Clare, Sligo, Limerick, Donegal) gaelic LABRADH LONGSEACH
MARTIN 1- french and latin surname become very common surname in Scotland, rarer elsewhere
2- gaelic MACGIOLLA-MARTIN
MOORE 1- gaelic O MORDHA ('noble') cognate with the O'MORE
2- english surname common in England (not so in Wales and Scotland)

LEE 1- well known english surname

2- (rare?) gaelic O LAOIDHIGH = 'poetic'
LYONS 1- french norman origine (town name in Normandy)
2- english for 'lion' ?
3- gaelic O LAIGHIN cognate with LEHANE, irish LANE (# english LANE)




other confusing names :
KENNEDY 1- gaelic (irish) O CINNEIDE
2- gaelic scottish clan (but pictish origin?) - gaelic spelling unkown to me - 
CAMPBELL irish and scottish 


scandinave families gaelicized (as in Scotland) :
BOLAND norwegian (old ! When?) gaelicized O'BOLAN
DOYLE gaelic 'dubh-gall' ('dark foreigner') – viking – see scottish Dugald, MACDOUGALL, McDOWELL
possibly :
(MC)SWEENEY	? Not sure : See scottish gaelic MacSuibhne : MACQUEEN, MCSWEYN viking name Svein-r

MCAULIFFE see scottish gaelic MacAmhladh : MACAULAY, MCCAULEY – viking Olaf-r



some surnames common in Irlande seem of scottish origin (when?) :
GIBSON, DALTON, HENDERSON, MILLAR, GRAHAM, 


BOYD seams scottish gaelic, as BOYLE (but found too in Ireland)

----------


## Yorkie

> I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades. 
> Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
> One reason that R1b came to dominate might be that enough of it got into powerful gaelic families where males had concubines or a gaelic equivalent and had a lot of children who also went on to do the same.


O'Grady and O'Driscoll actually turn up in reasonable numbers in L161 I2a1b2-Isles. I think O'Grady is more 'C' and 'D' subclade and O'Driscoll more 'A'.

----------


## James

Roche in French means Rock, or Stone. A castle.

----------


## Dubhthach

> *In total, that is 1160 foreign lineages out of 4700, or 24.7% of the Irish population*. This is far more than I expected. But of course that is only paternal lineages, which foreign invaders have surely spread much more abundantly than maternal lineages. I did not calculate the proportion of foreign autosomal DNA in the Irish gene pool, but I would guess between something like 15% (more in Northern Ireland and around Dublin, of course - perhaps over 30%).


A very large proportion of those who are in the Ireland project would be classes as "Scots Irish"/"Ulster Scots" in ancestry. Given the large scale migration during the 18th century from the province of Ulster to North America it's hardly surprising. DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.

Regarding percentages if you look at Busby study and work out the averages across his different sample groups from Ireland (some riducolously small) you average about 89-90% that are R1b-M269+

There is also the fact that many apparant "Foreign surnames" are actually native surnames masquerading. A good example is Smyth/Smith, in large number of cases this is a direct translation of Mac Gabhann (Mac an GHOBHANN == son of the Smith), this name is also anglisced as McGowan. So you end up with situations where in the west of Ireland if you bear the surname King more then likely you are actually are of "Gaelic stock" generally often been Mac Conraoi which is also anglisced directly as Conroy. Woulfe in his 1923 book describes the following processes regarding angliscations.

Phonetically.By translation.By attraction.By assimilation.By substitution.

see: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/...h-surnames.php

The oldest Irish surnames generally date from the 10th and 11th surnames, the most common Irish surnames all pre-date the Cambro-Norman invasion in 1169.

For example:

Duffy -> Ó Dubhthaigh (50th most common surname in Ireland) -- early entry I see is January 1097.




> *M1097.1*Flannagan Ruadh Ua Dubhthaigh, successor of Comman, and lector of Tuaim-da-ghualann;
> 
> 
> *M1136.2*Domhnall Ua Dubhthaigh, Archbishop of Connaught, and successor of Ciaran, head of the wisdom and hospitality of the province, died after mass and celebration at Cluain-fearta-Brenainn.
> 
> 
> *M1136.23*Ruaidhri Ua Conchobhair and Uada Ua Concheanainn were taken prisoners by Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair, they being under the protection of the successor of Iarlath and Ua Dubhthaigh, and of the Bachall Buidhe _i.e. the yellow staff or crozier_, and Ua Domhnallian.
> 
> 
> ...


The above is taken from the Annals of the Four masters. Some of the surnames you can see in those extracts include:
Ó Conchobhair == O'ConnorÓ Ruairc == O'RourkeÓ Briain == O'BrienÓ Maolseachlainn == O'LoughlinÓ Tuathail = O'TooleÓ Eachadha = HaugheyMac Fhaeláin = Whealan/PhelanÓ Cearbhaill == O'CarrollÓ Fearghail = FarrellÓ Dubhthaigh = DuffyÓ Concheanainn == Concannon

In general the vast majority of surnames are reckon to date from before the invasion, alot of the ones formed after are either "sub-branching" of major lineages, or for example the gaelicisation of Norman names. So for example from De Burgo (Burke) we get McWilliam, McRedmond, McDavid etc.

----------


## Eochaidh

> DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.
> 
> Ó Eachadha = HaugheyMac Fhaeláin = Whealan/Phelan


My great great grandfather, Ó Eachadha = Haughey from County Louth married my great great grandmother, Mac Fhaeláin = Phelan from Couny Kilkenny, in Newark, New Jersey USA in 1830.

So, yes these DNA results with Irish or Scots-Irish surnames are heavily North American.

Many of the surnames in my great great grandfather, Ó Eachadha's Catholic parish in Louth are names that would be considered English or Scots, e.g. Clinton and Wallace, but the law at that time required people within 'The Pale' to take English surnames and many did.

----------


## MOESAN

> A very large proportion of those who are in the Ireland project would be classes as "Scots Irish"/"Ulster Scots" in ancestry. Given the large scale migration during the 18th century from the province of Ulster to North America it's hardly surprising. DNA testing is relatively rare in Ireland, I would imagine that less then 5-10% of our members are actually Irish born. Most of them are members of the diaspora, and the vast majority of those are North American based.
> 
> Regarding percentages if you look at Busby study and work out the averages across his different sample groups from Ireland (some riducolously small) you average about 89-90% that are R1b-M269+
> 
> There is also the fact that many apparant "Foreign surnames" are actually native surnames masquerading. A good example is Smyth/Smith, in large number of cases this is a direct translation of Mac Gabhann (Mac an GHOBHANN == son of the Smith), this name is also anglisced as McGowan. So you end up with situations where in the west of Ireland if you bear the surname King more then likely you are actually are of "Gaelic stock" generally often been Mac Conraoi which is also anglisced directly as Conroy. Woulfe in his 1923 book describes the following processes regarding angliscations.
> 
> Phonetically.By translation.By attraction.By assimilation.By substitution. 
> 
> see: http://www.libraryireland.com/names/...h-surnames.php
> ...


I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
but
did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???

----------


## hope

> I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
> but
> did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
> O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???


Yes Moesan O`Rourke is from old Norse origin. I think the first to be listed was "Ruarc" a king of Bréifne ( equivalent to modern Cavan and Leitrim.) They were of the Uí Briúin Bréifne... Ruarcs grandson Sean Fearghal Bréifne was the first to use the name in a hereditary manner. They listed descent from Conn of the Hundred Battles and I think (some-one may correct this if wrong) also to Niall of the Nine Hostages through his brother Brion. Francis J.Byrne however in his book Irish Kings and High Kings thought this dubious. No matter they still have a good pedigree.

----------


## MOESAN

> Yes Moesan O`Rourke is from old Norse origin. I think the first to be listed was "Ruarc" a king of Bréifne ( equivalent to modern Cavan and Leitrim.) They were of the Uí Briúin Bréifne... Ruarcs grandson Sean Fearghal Bréifne was the first to use the name in a hereditary manner. They listed descent from Conn of the Hundred Battles and I think (some-one may correct this if wrong) also to Niall of the Nine Hostages through his brother Brion. Francis J.Byrne however in his book Irish Kings and High Kings thought this dubious. No matter they still have a good pedigree.


thanks
some of these ligneages seam showing alliances between gaelic and viking ligneages
on an other side, I knew and it is confirmed that a lot of genuine irish surnames were anglicized in more than a way as in every country you have colonized people and colonizators

PS for Dowell, D(o)ugal(d), maybe I can add Doyle?

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## Dubhthach

> I am hesitating for some of these surnames, because I have no enough data by the hand:
> but
> did not be O'ROURKE a name of Viking origin, as FARRELL
> O'Ruadhric (Roderic) or something like that??? and Fearghail put me to think in a gaelic name given to a viking: Dubhghail (Dowell, Dougal(d)...??? "light stranger" opposed to "dark stranger" (Dane) ???


Gall = Foreigner
Gal = Valour

Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)



> (*a*) *warlike ardour, fury, valour:*gail .i. beodacht, * O'Dav. 1037* . ecal .i. cen gail, * O'Mulc. 354* . ? gal .i. galar ... quia motat mentem, * 614* . cruaid a gal, * IT i 107.25* . am amnus ar gail ocus gaiscced, * 142.1* . addaimet ... do gail ocus do gaisced, * FB 11*  (* LU 8150* ); in gal ┐ fiuchiud na ferge ... i n-erbruinnib na láech,* TTr.² 860* . cor[o] islighea a ngal, * CCath. 2493* . bái side bar gail ┐ bar fogail Ailella, * TBC 2894* . * TFerbe 372* . amail sóersai Daúid de gail claidib Góli, * Fél. Ep. 484* . ní dechaid coll cána ar goil ... _escaped his val- our_ , * Arch. iii 304.4* . ba gaoth i ngal `_he was wise in con- flict_ ,' * Studies 1918, 281 § 11* . ba gal craidi leis_perturbation of heart_ , * Cog. 194.25* ; * 72.3* . fuair bás ann do ghal retha _from ardour of running_ , * Acall. 1617* . ? nocho rabhasa fós ... bhaili bud gairdi rem ghal ná na mesc `_where my time sped more quickly_ ,' * 1585* . gs. láith gaile fer nhÉrend, * IT i 100.5* . lathus gaile Góedel uile, * FB 89*  (* LU 9160* ). do chom- ramaib gaili ┐ gascid, * TBC² 1862.*  * 2046* . ar nert gaile _by dint of valour_ , * TTr² 55* . a n-n[e]urt gaile, * 996* . cona ṡlúag lán gaile, * Fél. Jan. 11* . re huair ṅgaile, * Ériu v 223.54* . én gaile, see E 123.65 . pl. *feats of valour (?):* ar gressaib gal, * Thes. ii 293.20* . for gói gnaith sraintear gala _battles are ever gained_ , * MR 120.19* . nirbu Gabran cen gala | i n-aimsir meicc Murchada, * Rawl. 84b40* . indsaighfidh gala, * Lism. L. 2806* . a bhferga ┐ a ngala (ngalu MS) oc dula do chath, * Ériu ii 130.20* . da mac samla galaib gliad, * TBC 4053* . ar galaib dagḟer, * Ériu v 222.39* . miser fiana iarna ngalaib, * O'Dav. 1037.*  * Content. xxx 35* . ō galaib ōenḟer, * ZCP xi 109 § 21* . ar galaib oenḟer (-ḟir) _by unaided valour_  (often = _in single combat_ ): ar galaib ōenfer roggōeta uli, * TBC² 1522* . ar galaib oenḟir, * TBC 1642* . in triar thuc Mac C ... ar galaibóenfer, * BDD 94* . comrac for galaib oen-fir, * MR 70.6* . gaibid ar gail *challenges:* rogab Gablach Fuiter ar gail, * RC xv 323.9*  (* Dinds. 23* ). Of animals *heat, fury:*fuil aidhe rogiallathar gail, * Laws v 152.3* , with _gl._  in adh da ngialland a gail merachta, * 154.11* . _Cf._  (among legal exemptions) slan do na damaib in gail doniat, * iii 266.16 Comm.*  gala mathgamna ┐ brotha leóman, * BDD 92* = * BDD² 893* . Of natural pheno- mena, _etc._ : a gail co timm rothaisig (of a whirlpool) `_he made feeble and faint its fury_ ,' * Met. Dinds. iv 86.79* . ó chaitheasdair an ghaoth a goil `_when the wind had exhausted its fury_ ,' * ML 48.22* . mar bráinṡnec[h]ta ó ghoil gréni, * Ériu iv 226 § 51* . a bhfoil beo ní buaine | ná ceo re goil ngréine, * Dán Dé viii 2* . ní bhí ag sruth ... guth ón ghal, * IGT Decl. ex. 1567* . mar chuiris an ghrian a gal `_as the sun doth send its heat_ ,' * Arch. Hib. i 99* . fo nim niabtha gal, * AU 894* = * FM i 544.17* . congaibet gola (of waves), * SR 7899* . _Cf._  further: gal ambraighet _the heat of their throats_  (from thirst), * CCath. 2578* . ticc goil a ngrúaidh Núaladha _a flush_  (lit. heat), * IGT Decl. ex. 312* . Common in chevilles, esp. in gp.feochair ngoile, * ITS v 40.10* . dígrais gail, * PRIA 3 Ser. iii 534.1* . dorairngert Curnán cét gal, * SG 235.29* . cétaib gal, * Arch. Hib. ii 93 § 18* . fichtib gal, * TBC 3206* .línib gal, * 3693* , * Acall. 1582* . miad n-gal, * MR 146.3* ; * 132.15* .
> Compds. *¤*chét *a valorous hundred:* galchét clerech, * LL 131a45*  (* Trip. ii 536.25* ). *¤*fine = fingal *murder of a kinsman:* bá himeccla lá hUa nD. gail-fhine do dhénamh dhóibh for aroile, * FM v 1406.4*


In this case Farrell means either "man of valour" (fear = man) or as I see in some texts a corruption of what is written *fíor* (very) in modern Irish. -- thus perhaps "very valourous / super valourous)

Ruarc is indeed based off a norse first name. This Ruarc was however a member of the Uí Briúin (specifically Uí Briúin Bréfine) However people should not forget that Irish people had no problems adopting foreign firstnames, just as we don't today. Old Norse provides a large amount of loan words into middle Irish specifically around areas of trade/marine/towns etc.

A good example of a Norse influenced name is Manus (Maghnus) which is borrowed from Magnus. It doesn't imply that the McManus's are descended from Vikings. Likewise Lochlann doesn't imply been a viking (Lochlannaigh = Vikings), it became a popular enough firstname. I reckon that a similiar event happened with Dubhghall which became a firstname that was born by men who weren't necessary viking in origin. Their descendants then took the surname Ó Dubhghaill -- thus implying descent from a man called Dubhghall as oppose to meaning "Descendant of Danish Viking". Of course this name survives today in english in the form Dougal and the surname has at least three angliscations. these been Doyle, McDowell, McDougal 

-Paul
(DF41+)

----------


## hope

> thanks
> some of these ligneages seam showing alliances between gaelic and viking ligneages
> on an other side, I knew and it is confirmed that a lot of genuine irish surnames were anglicized in more than a way as in every country you have colonized people and colonizators
> 
> PS for Dowell, D(o)ugal(d), maybe I can add Doyle?


You can certainly add Doyle Moesan. There are around thirteen names that stem from Dubh-Ghaill, I can`t remember them all but Doyle, O`Doyle, Dougall, McDougall, McDowell, Dowell. If you are wishing to read something in particular regarding Dubhghaill, there are some entries in Book of Four Masters from about 978 to 1012 (give or take a year either way, I can`t remember dates exactly). 
For sure it is no easy task trying to work through the Scottish and Irish surnames as there are indeed many changes and sub branches. As for the Norse/Vikings many of them became more Gaelic than the Gaelic and their names (most taken from personal names and brought to be surnames) were then transcribed into Gaelic then Anglicized.

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## inver2b1

So would Farrel be something similar to Friel?
Regarding what MOESAN said about viking allegiances; has anyone heard something similar for Gallagher? As the name means foreign lover or foreign helper.

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## Dubhthach

> So would Farrel be something similar to Friel?
> Regarding what MOESAN said about viking allegiances; has anyone heard something similar for Gallagher? As the name means foreign lover or foreign helper.


Woulfe regards Friel as a variant, obviously in this case though they have seperate ancestry, but both descend from seperate men who would have had similiar firstnames.




> Ó FIRGHIL—I—_O Ferrill, O Phirell, O'Freel, Freel, Friel, Freal, &c.; 'descendant of Fearghal' (super-valour); a variant of Ó Fearghail, which see; the name of a family of Cinel Conaill who derive their descent from Eoghan, brother of St. Columcille, and were hereditary erenaghs of Kilmacrenan, in Co. Donegal. The name is still common in that county, but pronounced Ó Frighil, which see. O'Freel had the privilege of inaugurating O'Donnell as chieftain of Tirconnell._





> Ó GALLCHOBHAIR—I—_O Galleghure, O'Gallagher, Gallagher, Gallaher, Gallogher, Gollagher, &c.; 'descendant of Gallchobhar' (foreign help); the name of a numerous and once powerful family in Tirconnell, who derive their descent from Maolchobha, King of Ireland in the 7th century. As marshalls of O'Donnell's forces, the O'Gallaghers took a prominent part in all the military movements of Cinel Conaill during the 14th and subsequent centuries. Many of them were distinguished as Bishops of Raphoe and Derry. The name was sometimes shortened to Ó Gallchú, which see._


As for Gallagher, well at the minimimal it means "Descendant of a man whose first name was Gallchobhar" -- now as to why he has this name that's another matter. Perhaps he was given it due to fact that his family had good relations with say Vikings (they did intermarry), or perhaps it was a nickname/descriptive title he became know as, that his ancestors (in the form of his grandsons and later) decided to continue bearing.

I do think people can be abit too literate when it comes to translating, Irish like all languages can often quite allegorical/poetic meanings to names. For example does anyone read Jonathan these days literarly as "Yahweh has given"? -- often Irish names were in many ways like those of the Plains Indians

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## MOESAN

> Gall = Foreigner
> Gal = Valour
> 
> Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Paul
> (DF41+)


thanks and sorry: the L or LL writing has some value as you show here and I forgot it in my spelling

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## MOESAN

I agree for loaned names: firstable they were foreign names for foreign people but after wars end and cohabitation and before the fixation of patronyms, they can be loaned, loosing by the way their 100% reliability for tracing ethnic origin (look at the thousands of french surnames of frank or other germanic origin, taken by people who had NO germanic origin... even in Italy
good evening to the boiling brains!

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## Eochaidh

> A good example of a Norse influenced name is Manus (Maghnus) which is borrowed from Magnus.


Here are two references from the Annals with Norse first names for members of the Uliad. I believe that Ragnal was originally Norse.

Annals of Inisfallen, 1045 : Ragnall Ua hEochada, royal heir of Ulaid, was slain by the foreigners of Áth Cliath in Rechru, together with three hundred nobles around him.
Annals of the Four Masters, 1194 : Conor, son of Manus, who was son of Donslevy O'Haughey, was treacherously slain by O'Hanlon.

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## Mikewww

> I have scrutinised FamilyTreeDNA's Ireland Y-DNA Project and noticed that practically all the Irish surnames belonged to haplogroup R1b, while almost all members of other haplogroups had English, Scottish, or occasionally even Welsh surnames. 
> 
> The Germanic haplogroup R1b-U106 is also dominated by English and Lowland Scottish surnames, as is to be expected. ...


I've got a file of about 7500 L21 people. I have them designated by geography for all that provide the information. I've got it down to the county level in a consistent - country, province (or region), county/shire (or department) level.

I reserved a data column for surname type but have never been satisfied there is an objective way to classify many surnames by ethnicity. I'll give it a try if some one can give me the appriopriate rules.

I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc., etc. There are some clear Welsh names like Price/Rice but I'm not sure that some of the very common names like Jones and Roberts couldn't be English as well as Welsh.

Help? How can I tackle this?

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## Dubhthach

> I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc.,


Except of course that Mac surnames have just as much chance as been Irish as scottish, after all it literally means "son" in Irish & Scottish Gaidhlig

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## sparkey

> I can easily call all Mc or Mac folks Scots, all O' folks Irish, etc., etc. There are some clear Welsh names like Price/Rice but I'm not sure that some of the very common names like Jones and Roberts couldn't be English as well as Welsh.
> 
> Help? How can I tackle this?


I usually look at surname frequency distributions. Maciamo posted some links here. I actually use the Ancestry.com one the most for the British Isles.

Some rules of thumb for "John" patronymics (not always reliable):
Jane: Cornish
Jayne: Welsh
Jaynes: English
Jenkin: Cornish
Jenkins: Welsh
Johns: Cornish
Johnson: English
Johnston: Scottish
Johnstone: Scottish
Jones: Welsh
McKean: Scottish
McKeown: Irish

----------


## elghund

> You can certainly add Doyle Moesan. There are around thirteen names that stem from Dubh-Ghaill, I can`t remember them all but Doyle, O`Doyle, Dougall, McDougall, McDowell, Dowell. If you are wishing to read something in particular regarding Dubhghaill, there are some entries in Book of Four Masters from about 978 to 1012 (give or take a year either way, I can`t remember dates exactly). 
> For sure it is no easy task trying to work through the Scottish and Irish surnames as there are indeed many changes and sub branches. As for the Norse/Vikings many of them became more Gaelic than the Gaelic and their names (most taken from personal names and brought to be surnames) were then transcribed into Gaelic then Anglicized.


The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?

The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results

----------


## hope

> The Doyles seem to be mostly within the subclades P312/S116. Wouldn't that indicate Celtic ancestry rather than Scandinavian?
> 
> The Doyle DNA Project: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/doyle/results


To be honest elghund, I`m not sure about that. 
You could look at Maciamos R1b tree in the haplogroup list.
All I know is on the link there seems to be entries for R1b1a2a1a1b4 (f) which I thought (and I may be wrong) was common to Norway, Irish Sea and Hebrides
Perhaps some-one with more knowledge on the subject will enlighten us..
Also it would not be such a great surprise I feel to find markers outside what one could expect as if you recall the vikings were known for slave taking. I recently read something ( sorry at the moment cannot remember where) regarding their ships coming into Dublin harbour loaded with slaves and among them many Picts. 
This is why I find interesting the surname projects that are going at the moment as they are shedding better light on the matter.

----------


## Butler

I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .

Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?

----------


## sparkey

> I am new to DNA but found this a very interesting thread, my family are Butlers from the Kilkenny\Laois area of Ireland and I have justfound out that I am I2b1C so question I have is, as most of the Butlers whoclaim Irish descent seem to belong to R1b1a2 and the in comming Butlers were Normans from the Fitzwalter family, which group is most likely to have arrived with the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1170 , I2b1 or R1b1a2? .
> 
> Does P78 (I2b1C) have any significance to the above ?


It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.

I will say that your subclade, P78, is notoriously eastern in its distribution among I2-M223. If your family was from just about anywhere but the British Isles, I would guess a Gothic or Vandal connection. As is, I don't think I can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or Norman connection. You look to be in a cluster with names like Mathews, Mackabee, Roberts, and Hall... not a lot of Norman names there, and you're also not too far from continental names like Hermans, Budarick, and Kuhn. So based on current evidence, an Anglo-Saxon origin of your family looks perhaps more likely, unless you have some interesting Norman-looking matches I'm not seeing.

----------


## Butler

Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider

My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland 
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards 
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans

Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.

----------


## Butler

I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.

----------


## sparkey

> I did some further research on the Irish FTDNA project the only other I2B1C match was for the surname of MULLINAX which was a locational name 'of de Moloneaux' from the noble family who trace their descent from William the Conqueror, from Molineaux-sur-Seine, near Rouen. They trace their descent fromWilliam de Molines, a Norman named in the Battle Abbey Roll (a list of men who fought with William the Conqueror at Hastings.


I see a Mullinax sample at the M223 Project, but the GD to the Butler sample is 13 on 25 markers... too distant to make any conclusions about the Butler sample. The others I mentioned also have GDs around 13, and not on the slow mutating DYS393 marker, and so are probably more relevant.

----------


## Butler

Sparkey

Thank you for the reply

What I was trying to establish, due the lack of confirmed I2B1Cin Ireland, was that some Irish I2BIC’s were of Norman descent, I agee that there are a number of members of the M233 who are probably more relevant but it isthe Norman\Irish link that really interests me.

The issue I have is that there are very few IrishI2B1C’s so it’s difficult to draw a conclusion, I am sure that the given sometime other I2B1’s will prove to be I2B1C

----------


## Mikewww

> It's difficult to separate Normans from the pre-Celtic/Celtic/Anglo-Saxon mix that was in the British Isles by the time the Normans arrived. There are some subclades that are fairly clearly part of one migration or another, but the commonly mentioned ones don't tend to be. We'd need something much more specific than "R1b1a2," to begin with.


This is absolutely true. R1b-U106 in the Ukraine and R1b-L21 in England may not have much to do with each other, likewise R1b-L21>Z253 in Switzerland is different than R1b-L21>DF13* in France.

----------


## Mikewww

> Thank you for the reply I have 4 routes to consider
> 
> My I2B1C ancestor went straight into Ireland 
> My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland as part of the early Vikingsraids, 795 onwards 
> My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland with the Normans from 1169onwards
> My I2B1C ancestor came to Ireland at another time notassociated with the Vikings or Normans
> 
> Having done some research I2B1C does not seem to be verycommon is the south of Ireland perhaps this is simply down to the lack ofsubclade testing; after all I am new to this myself.


Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.




> On Thursday next after the feast of St. John the Baptist, in the year 1374, Geoffrey, son of Thomas, son of Nicholas, son of Howel *Walsh*, appointed ... to deliver to James *le Botiller*, Earl of Ormond, the lands and buildings of his manor and town of Melagh and Cannderstown in Iverk.


I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.



> Richard's son was Edmund and ... in the old Abbey of Jerpoint, ... there is a coffin shaped slab in one of the sepulchral niches in the chancel, to which it was removed from its original position beneath the tower. It bears a raised eight pointed cross, a shield bearing the arms of the Passion, and another with the arms of Walsh of Castle Hale. There is rich foliage ornamentation. Some of the letters of the inscription are obliterated. It reads, in old English character:
> Here lies *Edmund Walsh and Johanna Butler his wife*. On whose souls God have mercy. A.D. 1476"


These names do intermingle.





> a try concerning some surnames: waiting the help of somebody with accurate and vaster knowledge
> Irish and British surnames :
> from some books :
> « Normans » common surnames in Ireland :
> ...
> BUTLER previously FITZWALTER name changed in 1177 ('chief butler' function, french « bouteiller »)
> ...
> BARRETT from France, with Normans
> ...
> ...


I think we should be cautious in saying Cambro-Norman invaders into Ireland were of Norman descent, at least on the Y lineage side. Many were probably Welsh. There was a lot of intermarriages between Norman Marcher Lord families and Welsh royalty and landholders in Wales prior to the invasion of Ireland. Of course, some of the Norman allies were actually Flemish or Breton so "what's an Anglo-Norman?" is probably not answered simply.

However, I think there is something to all of these names as found in Ireland. The Y DNA does back some of this up. I know my Walsh matches with several families actually located now in Wales - mainly Morgan's. I also match with the Barrett's of Co. Mayo which supports an old poem about the "Welshmen of Tirawley" where the Barret and Walsh were brothers who fought with the Cambro-Normans. We also have a MacDougall who matches. It seems we are Welsh, but we do have Frenchman named Bergeron and a Swede from Ostergotland who also match our 1000 year old Y lineage so who knows?

My clan progenitor is reportedly Philip Walsh who was a knight fighting for FitzStephen under de Clare (Strongbow.) I've got old pedigrees, but thats the problem. I have multiple to choose from that vary to... FitzStephen as a grandfather, or Raymond le Gros, or to dear relative de Clare, or to the de Barri's (of Gerald of Wales) but also to one of the Twelve Lords (knights) of Glamorgan (under Robert Fitzhamon) and to, you guessed it, King Arthur.

----------


## Butler

Cambro-Normans is a very good term, as Strongbow himself was a Norman it would make sense that hishigher ranking supporters would also be Normans, the Strongbow invasion of Ireland takes place only about 100 years after the conquest the problem we have is that we do not have a definative DNA label for what consitutes a Norman.

----------


## Yorkie

> Butler, this is very interesting. We are not of the same paternal lineage as I'm R1b-L21>L513>L705.2 but my family inter-married with Butler's in Ireland so we have a possible connection. In fact, my immigrant ancestor from south Co. Kilkenny has the given name of Edmund and he told his family it was passed down from the Butler's. There was an Edmund Butler in the ancestry somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I've got old pedigrees from books that show several intermarriages. Here is one.
> 
> 
> These names do intermingle.
> 
> ...


You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.

The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.

----------


## Mikewww

> You refer to old pedigrees that link your name Walsh [which, according to Richard Roche's [1995] 'The Norman Invasion of Ireland' hails from Pembrokeshire in Wales] to several Cambro-Norman sources including your 'dear relative, de Clare'. That Walsh links to the Barrys may well be true as there is evidence from Roche that Barry too is of Pembrokeshire origin, as were Barretts.
> 
> The problem is that no Irish records exist to my knowledge that will link your Irish ancestors of the 19th century directly back, generation by generation, to the Walshes of the Cambro-Norman invasion. Even if there was, you would have to trust in the fidelities of an awful lot of ancestors. Your Walsh matches to Barrys and Barretts might have nothing to do with Cambro-Norman origins but rather to shared native Irish origins [your Ydna lineage does not rule this out]. Perhaps it is possible that you descend from Irish peasants who adopted the name Walsh through servitude, as is possible with the matching Barry and Barrett families and there may be no link whatsoever with 'dear relative, de Clare'? Your surname Walsh is apparently the 4th most common in Ireland, which also considerably reduces your chances of being of Cambro-Norman lineage.


Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.

However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.

My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.

The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.

I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.

----------


## Dubhthach

The Barrets are definetly "post-invasion" along with the Walshes. Just to emphaise Mike's point on the surname in Irish the name Walsh is *Breathnach* which literally means "Welsh man" -- obviously emphasising the original meaning of word British/Breton. The name for the welsh language in Irish been: *Breatnais 
**
*Anyways here's some extracts regarding the Barrets from Woulfe's 1923 book. Unsurprising there are two origins for the name:




> BÁRÓID—VIII—Barrett; 'son of Baraud' (a Norman form of the Teutonic Berwald). Families of this name settled in Ireland at the time of the Anglo-Norman invasion. The Barretts were an influential family in Cork, and the name is still well known throughout Munster. _Compare with Bairéid._





> BAIRÉID—VIII—_Bared, Baret, Barrett; 'son of Baret.' Bared, Baret, Boret, Borret, and Borred occur in Domesday Book as names of persons holding land in the time of Edward the Confessor. The name is, therefore, most probably Anglo-Saxon and distinct from Báróid, which see. The Barretts settled in the 13th century in Tirawley, where they became numerous and powerful. In later times they formed a clan after the Irish fashion, the head of which was known as Mac Bhaitín Bairéid; and there were sub-clans known as Clann Tóimín and Clann Aindriú._


As can be seen in the above texts the Barrets in Ireland like the Walshes in general became more "Irish then the Irish themselves" -- adopting Irish law and inheritance systems (The "Corporate Clan" structure).

Of course the first couple generations of Cambro-Normans heavily married with local Irish "grandees", by the mid 13th century the majority would have at least had either an Irish mother or an Irish wife. This was the same obviously in Wales. An interesting case is that of the Fitzgearld's.

*Gearld de Windsor* married *Nest ferch Rhys* -> *Maurice FitzGerald* (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of *Muircheartach Ua Briain* highking of Ireland) -> *Gerald FitzMaurice* and *Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald
*
Gearld FitzMaurice been the ancestor of the Duke of Leinster Geraldines where's as Thomas was the ancestor of the Earl of Desmond line of the Geraldines.

Giraldus Cambrensis was also a grandchild of Gearld de Windsor and Nest, though in his case he's a member of the Barry (de Barry) family:




> de BARRA—XI—_de Barry, Barry; Norman 'de Barri,' i.e., of Barri, probably in Normandy; one of the oldest and most illustrious of the Anglo-Norman families in Ireland. The name occurs in the earliest Anglo-Irish records, and has always been specially associated with the County of Cork. In the year 1179,Robert FitzStephen granted to his nephew, Philip de Barry, the three cantreds of Ui Liatháin, Muscraighe-trí-máighe, and Cinel Aodha, now represented respectively by the baronies of Barrymore, Orrery, and Kinelea; and this grant was confirmed by King John in 1207 to William de Barry, son and heir of Philip. In the course of time the Barrys became one of the most numerous and powerful families in Munster. They divided into several branches, the heads of which were known respectively as An Barrach Mór (the Great Barry), Barrach Ruadh (Red Barry), Barrach Óg (Young Barry), Barrach Maol (Bald Barry), Barrach Láidir (Strong Barry); and one branch adopted the Irish patronymic surname ofMac Ádaim, which see. The Barrys suffered considerably in the wars of the 17th century, but are still numerous and respectable throughout Munster. There was also a family of the name in Co. Wexford. The Barrys of Co. Limerick, in many instances, belong to the old Irish family of Ó Beargha (which see), and not to the Anglo-Norman Barrys._


Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.

----------


## Dubhthach

It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.

I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.

----------


## Mikewww

> It wouldn't surprise that Walsh is like Smith in English. You have multiple founders, the common point in this case not been occupation (Smithery) but in Welsh origin. In general a large part of both the common soldiery as well as the settlers brought in during the late 12th/early-mid 13th centuries were Welsh in origin.


Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy. 

Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?




> I should point out that even though Walsh is in the top 5 surnames in Ireland that in 1911 census that numbers with surname Walsh/Walshe/Breathnach numbered less then 0.8% of total island population.


That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.

----------


## Dubhthach

> Absolutely I agree, I'm an administrator on the Walsh/Welsh and Welsh/Welch surname projects. BTW, I wish I could consolidate them. It is very apparent that there many Y lineages of Walsh/Welsh/Welch surnamed people. It's crazy. 
> 
> Do you have more information on what you are calling the "settler" migrations post the 1169-70 invasion? I'd love to read more about that. Perhaps there are different parts of Wales in these migrations. I think West Midlands might be considered along side Wales too. What about Cornwall during the 12th-13th centuries? Was it linked closely with Wales? In other words, would the Cambro-Normans have drawn upon Cornwall for support too or did Cornwall have different circumstances/leadership at the time?
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting. I didn't know that it was just a small percentage of the population. I'd always assumed it was more populous.


Well I have to admit I haven't read much about 13th century Irish history, generally my interests are either in the period before then or the period from 1400-1700. It's my general recollection though I would need to do some digging through some of books I have.

With regards to "West Midlands" I would imagine so, after all the city of Dublin was given to the merchants of Bristol. I see for example the following on wiki page about History of Dublin:




> The siege mentality of medieval Dubliners is best illustrated by their annual pilgrimage to the area called Fiodh Chuilinn, or Holly Wood (rendered in English as Cullenswood) in Ranelagh, where, in 1209, *five hundred* recent *settlers* from *Bristol* had been massacred by the O'Toole clan during an outing outside the city limits. Every year on "Black Monday", the Dublin citizens would march out of the city to the spot where the atrocity had happened and raise a black banner in the direction of the mountains to challenge the Irish to battle in a gesture of symbolic defiance. This was still so dangerous that, until the 17th century, the participants had to be guarded by the city militia and a stockade against "the mountain enemy".


I believe there are at least 3,500-4,000 potential irish surnames or variations of. As a result with so many the largest ones don't breach 1% each.

----------


## Mikewww

> ... *Gearld de Windsor* married *Nest ferch Rhys* -> *Maurice FitzGerald* (whose wife was half Irish and granddaughter of *Muircheartach Ua Briain* highking of Ireland) -> *Gerald FitzMaurice* and *Thomas FitzMaurice FitzGerald
> *....
> Most of the foot-soldiers/archers who would have accompanied the initial invasion would have been welsh.


Don't forget, the Cambro-Normans really were _Cambro_-Normans (_Welsh_-Normans.) There was a great deal of intermarriage. For instance, a number of the Norman type surnamed folks descended from Nest ferch Rhys, a Welsh princess who also has been named "Helen of Wales", "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm" and "Mother of the Walshes." 

Regardless of their Y lineages, FitzStephen, FitzGerald, de Carew, FitzWalter, FitzMaurice, de Barri and even FitzHenry had Welsh blood in them.
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.c.../strongbw.html

As far as I can tell, de Clare (Strongbow) himself, only left one male offspring, Gilbert (who would've been half Old Irish) but he died in childhood.

Would the surname FitzMaurice have evolved into Anglicized variants? Would FitzMorris be a possibility, ending up as Morris?




> Britain
> 
> In England and Scotland, the name can be derived from the Old French personal name _Maurice_ which was introduced to Britain by the Normans. It can also be derived from the Latin _Mauritius_, a derivative of _Maurus_. This name was used by several early Christian saints. The first Morrises in the British Isles were recorded as living in the bordering counties of Monmouthshire, Wales and Herefordshire, England by the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD.[3] In Wales, Morris is an Anglicisation of the Welsh personal name _Meurig_ (ultimately derived from Latin _Mauritius_).[1] Additionally the name Morris is of Anglo-Norman origin deriving from the 'de Marisco' line.
> 
> 
> Ireland
> 
> In Ireland, the name is an anglicisation of the Gaelic _Ó Muiris_ and can derive from a number of sources. Firstly from Norman settlers who assimilated into the Gaelic language and culture, for example the Norman Morrises who settled in Galway in 1485 and became one of the Tribes of Galway. Secondly the name may be a variant of Morrissey (_Ó Muireasa_), who were a branch of the Uí Fiachrach clan, or also from _Muiris_ who was a member of the MacDermot royal family.


The reason I ask is there are some Morrises in my group. I never really thought about it. There are some R1b-L21>DF21, R1b-L21>DF41, R1b-L21>L226, R1b-L21* Morris/Morrison people, but I also have a group associated with me. The ones associated with me (R1b-L705.2) list an origin in Monmouthshire of South Wales, same county as the L705.2 Morgan's. I'm glad this came up in the conversation. I need to cover this in my group.

----------


## Yorkie

> Yes, of course could be right that since my MDKA is from Ireland he could have an Old Irish origin. I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.
> 
> However, I think the odds of an Old Irish origin for my Y lineage prior to the Cambro-Norman Invasion are diminished with by the nature by Y DNA triangulations. This is the benefit of deep ancestral testing.
> 
> My only confirmed Irish matches are from two surname groups, the Barrett's and other people with Walsh variants (Welsh/Welch.) As I mentioned, this aligns with the family story that the Barrett and Walsh were brothers in the Cambro-Norman forces and descended from the Lords of Glamorganshire. Of course the name Walsh/Welsh/Welch is also indicative of Wales origin.
> 
> The triangulation evidence is that the majority of my matches are from Wales, including citizens of South Wales. Most intriguing thing to me is the Morgan family that I'm related that reside in Monmouthsire, which is adjacent to Glamorgan. This whole little group of Barrett's, Walsh's, Morgans is estimated by Nordtvedt's TMRCA tool to be about a 1000 years old so the geographic break up of the group did not happen much prior to that if at all.
> 
> I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.


Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. I might as well call Harald Hardrada a 'dear relative' because I have some recent Norwegian ancestry.

What you need is a generation by generation pedigree leading from the present back to Strongbow's times and they are as rare as hens' teeth in Ireland. Fortunately, in England there exist some pedigrees [one of my maternal lines] that can be tied up with family tree detective work as 'the other half of the jigsaw'. I am able to trace one line of mine back to Yorkshire in the late 1500s, and then with the aid of a pedigree by George Ormerod, to continue the line through, generation by generation, to some Norman-descended landed families in the east Cheshire [De Legh, Del Sherd, De Clayton etc] of the 1200s. Of course, NPEs may lurk there, but at least one can follow the line back, generation by generation. Using a pedigree by Gerald Cambrensis that doesn't lead anywhere seems a waste of time .

Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.

----------


## Dubhthach

Well Fitz names are never "anglisced" by default they originate in Hiberno-Norman-French (as some of the academics call the local written versions of Norman-French in Ireland). The most famous line of Fitzmaurice is actually a branch of the Geraldines (Fitzgearlds) from somewhat later. (late 13th centuries). Their mainline continues to this day as the current Marquess of Lansdowne, whose heir holds the title "Earl of Kerry".

Their namesake been: Maurice FitzThomas -- the brother of John FitzGerald, 1st Baron Desmond (Desmond line -- now extinct). John was killed at the battle of Battle of Callann in 1261. (Knight of Kerry direct descendant of John through his illegimate son: Sir Maurice Buidhe fitz John)





> 1261.5
> Cocad mor & uilcc imda do denam do Fingen mac Domnaill Mec Carthaig & da braithrib ar Gallaib in hoc anno.
> 
> 
> 1261.6
> Sluagad mor la Clainn Gerailt i nDesmumain d'indsaigid Meg Carthaig, & do innsaig Mag Carthaig iat-som & tucc maidm forro & do marbad mac Tomas .i. Eoan proprium nomen & a mac & u. ritere x. maille friu, [I] & ocht mbaruin maithe faeirri & gilli oca imda & sersenaigh diairmithi do marbad and o sin. In Barrach Mor do marbad lais beos. Fingin Mag Carthaig do marbad do Gallaib iar sin & rigi Desmuman do gabail da derbrathair donn athcleirech Mac Carthaig dia eis.





> 1261.5
> 
> Very destructive war was waged against the Galls this year by Fingen son of Domnall Mac Carthaig and his kinsmen.
> 
> 
> 1261.6
> 
> 
> A great hosting was made by the Fitz Geralds into Desmond, to attack Mac Carthaig; but he attacked them and routed them and fitz Thomas, John by name, and his son were killed there, as well as fifteen knights, besides eight noble barons and many young squires and countless soldiery. He killed Barrach Mor (Barry More) also. Afterwards Fingen Mac Carthaig was killed by the Galls and the kingship of Desmond was assumed by his brother, the Ex-cleric Mac Carthaig.



The other main branch of the Geraldines are the Leinster branch represented to this day by the Duke of Leinster the premier peer in Ireland. The spilt between this line and that of the Marquess of Lansdowne dates to the late 12th century.

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## Mikewww

> Yes, of course, any pedigree has the possibility of a ratio of NPEs, and they all involve a leap of faith in the sense of ancestral fidelities. However, in your case, all you appear to possess is the famous pedigree compiled by Cambrensis. That in itself proves nothing either way because there is no connection to your Walsh family going back clearly, generation by generation. ....
> Is there any evidence that your Irish Walshes ever owned land? That seems a good place to start for a clue.


Yes, most of what I have, actually are land transaction records. However, there was huge event that changed the course of land ownership. Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad.

After that it took a quite a while before the Walshes recovered to any extent, land holding-wise, and generally for that matter.

I do have much more in the way of pedigree documentation than Gerald de Barri's historical perspective, but that is not the issue. I have multiple pedigrees and as far as I'm concerned *they are all unreliable*. This is what I was trying to say before.



> I do have pedigrees, starting with Gerald Cambrensis writings, but they conflict with each other and must be seen as unreliable. As you are aware, Yorkie, I think almost any pedigree reaching back a 1000 years is subject to the high opportunity for NPEs.


As you also know from other postings, I think that any pedigree going back to 1000 AD is highly suspect and subject to NPEs, no matter how rock solid the documentation. Here is why. If we use the ISOGG recommended NPE rate of 4% per generation when the father of record is confident he is the biological father you have a 4% risk of NPE per generation that accumulates over time. Over 33 generations, the odds are only about 25% that the Y chromosome remained constant... not good for paper only pedigrees. If the records have any risk in them, it only gets worse.

This is why I advocate the DNA triangulation method that is being used in the Wettin Man/English King scenario or the Royal Stewart scenario. I don't know if either of those is correct, but I think they are on the right track, methodology-wise. Still triangulation does not prove a pedigree. It just says we are in the right family.




> I'm not trying to say this indicates a Norman Y lineage. That's hard to pin down anyway. My guess is we have a Welsh paternal lineage. I just think the alignment of the DNA evidence, family history and surnames seems to be in alignment for a migration with the Cambro-Norman Invasion. That does not prove a high or noble origin or prove anything for that matter. This is just my guess as to the odds based on the specifics of my situation.


Relax, I'm not submitting for any kind nobility or knighthood. I don't care. I'm just trying to figure out the odds where we fit in. I think the DNA is the most reliable thing we have going, in conjunction with various family lineages/surnames and triangulation.

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## Butler

* Circa 1650, Oliver Cromwell came in and took over. I don't quite understand it but the Butler's don't seem to been have unified in this timeframe. Unfortunately, the Walsh of the Mountain clan resisted Cromwell forcefully. That is was bad idea. Very bad*.

In 1650s the 1st Duke of Ormond, James Butler, was in exile in France wiith Charles II, I would imagine it wasn't a good time to be a Butler, best to keep your head down lest Cromwell chop it off.

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## zeta

Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.

Cheers
Ron

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## Dubhthach

> Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.
> 
> Hi I am trying to glean whatever information I can re my Ancestors Name = "Lannin" do you have any other information re dating or origins of my Ancestors name,Thanks.
> 
> Cheers
> Ron


From Woulfe's 1923 book
---
Ó LONÁIN—I—_O Lonane, O Lonan, O Lonnan, O Lannan, O Lennane, Lenane, Lanon, Lannan, Lannon, Lannen, Lannin, Lennon, (Leonard); 'descendant of Lonán' (diminutive of lon, a blackbird); the name (1) of a Cork family who were originally settled in the neighbourhood of Rosscarbery, where they were followers of the O'Learys; and (2) of a Wicklow family who were anciently erenaghs of Kilranelagh; also, not improbably, (3) of an Ossory family. In Co. Cork, it appears to have been generally pronounced Ó Lionáin, and is very often anglicised Leonard.
_--

So three separate families whose surname could all be potentially anglisced as Lannin.

-Paul
(DF41+)

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## Tomenable

It seems that I2a2 in the British Isles is not Germanic after all:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post532148

It is rather Neolithic British, assimilated by Scots later on. Germanic surnames are probably of Lowland Scottish origin. Perhaps most of I2a2 came to Ireland with Lowland Scots. But in Scotland itself, it is a Neolithic British lineage, rather than Germanic.

I guess that it has to be associated with Caledonians rather than with Gaels.

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## dyrrebrac

Just a comment to say as a Carberry my results confirm I2a1a (I-m26).

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## MOESAN

> It seems that I2a2 in the British Isles is not Germanic after all:
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post532148
> 
> It is rather Neolithic British, assimilated by Scots later on. Germanic surnames are probably of Lowland Scottish origin. Perhaps most of I2a2 came to Ireland with Lowland Scots. But in Scotland itself, it is a Neolithic British lineage, rather than Germanic.
> 
> I guess that it has to be associated with Caledonians rather than with Gaels.



I was wondering (without solid basis) if the most of these Y-I2a2 were not a remnant of Cruithni (Picts?) of Northern Ireland, even if we can suppose these Cruithni had already also Y-R1b-L21+ in them... The "autochtonous" (neolithical) part among Cruithni?

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## MOESAN

> Gall = Foreigner
> Gal = Valour
> 
> Here's an extract from DIL (Dictionary of Irish language -- covering old and middle Irish periods)
> 
> 
> In this case Farrell means either "man of valour" (fear = man) or as I see in some texts a corruption of what is written *fíor* (very) in modern Irish. -- thus perhaps "very valourous / super valourous)
> 
> Ruarc is indeed based off a norse first name. This Ruarc was however a member of the Uí Briúin (specifically Uí Briúin Bréfine) However people should not forget that Irish people had no problems adopting foreign firstnames, just as we don't today. Old Norse provides a large amount of loan words into middle Irish specifically around areas of trade/marine/towns etc.
> ...


Thank very much. I had not read all these answers at this time; good precisions; I agree the linguistic/ethnic origin of personal names are not always the proof of a genealogical/genetical origin. It's a pleasure to have clues by serious people.

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## olivia33

BOYD seams , scottish gaelic, as BOYLE (but found too in Ireland) .

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