# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Cultural map of the world-Ingelhart Welzel

## Angela

I'm not usually a fan of this kind of thing, but Razib Khan brought it up on an article, and I think it's pretty interesting.



Both religion and political systems are at play.

See:
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...medium=twitter

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## IronSide

> I'm not usually a fan of this kind of thing, but Razib Khan brought it up on an article, and I think it's pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Both religion and political systems are at play.
> 
> See:
> https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...medium=twitter


Basically you would want to maximize Secular-Rational and Self Expression values as much as possible, the top right corner.

Interesting where Israel is located.

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## noman

I am gonna steal your post. Thanks!

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## Jovialis

> Basically you would want to maximize Secular-Rational and Self Expression values as much as possible, the top right corner.
> Interesting where Israel is located.


I don't fully agree with that. While thinking rationally is important, I think it's good for people to have some traditional values. It helps to create a sense of community, identity, as well as moral guideline. Celebrating traditions I think helps make life worth living. I guess it becomes a problem when some traditions are harmful, or too inhibiting. Nevertheless, I believe traditions were created for practical purposes; it creates structure and stability. I guess it's important to find a balance.

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a country like Sweden. But that's my preference; I'm sure it would be ideal for others.

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## IronSide

> I don't fully agree with that. While thinking rationally is important, I think it's good for people to have some traditional values. It helps to create a sense of community, identity, as well as moral guideline. Honestly, it's what make life worth living. I guess it becomes a problem when some traditions are harmful, or too inhibiting. Nevertheless, I believe traditions were created for practical purposes; it creates structure and stability. I guess it's important to find a balance.


But I love Logic and openness  :Grin: 

If traditions were created for practical purposes then definitely now is the time to leave them, especially in the Middle East.

Even in morality we can apply reason, we can debate right and wrong and decide for our selves, or we can blindly follow the errors of the ancients ?

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## bicicleur

Japanese aren't rational at all, they prefer the traditions

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## bicicleur

> But I love Logic and openness 
> 
> If traditions were created for practical purposes then definitely now is the time to leave them, especially in the Middle East.
> 
> Even in morality we can apply reason, we can debate right and wrong and decide for our selves, or we can blindly follow the errors of the ancients ?


so, you would put your country at the bottom, but where along the horizontal axis?

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## IronSide

> so, you would put your country at the bottom, but where along the horizontal axis?


At the bottom left corner.

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## davef

> Japanese aren't rational at all, they prefer the traditions


Bicicleur, no offense, but that post was very racist. I know you're better than that.

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## IronSide

> Bicicleur, no offense, but that post was very racist. I know you're better than that.


Really ? I thought it was normal.

If that's racist then I'm racist to my own group.

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## Jovialis

> Bicicleur, no offense, but that post was very racist. I know you're better than that.


There's nothing racist about what Bicicleur said. Traditional values vs rational/secular values in cultures are quantifiable. There's nothing inherently defective about being more traditional or more rational/secular. They're just different outlooks, and as I stated before, I think a balance between the two are ideal in my opinion.

A lot of those ex-communist countries are high on the secular rational scale, you think that's a better place to live? Perhaps the reason why they have such a high alcoholism and suicide-rate is because anything considered not "rational" or practical is shunned in their societies. There's no room to celebrate life. Not to say that all of the people are like that there, because I'm sure they're not. But ultimately, the culture there may be responsible for that.

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## Angela

@Jovialis,
I completely agree

@Bicicleur,
I think that's right. This is why I said I normally don't like these kinds of analyses. It's too subjective in a way. I think East Asians are extremely traditional in terms of their culture. They aren't very "spiritual" or religious. I think the terms or "qualities" were not chosen very well, or perhaps the individual questions upon which this was based didn't get to the heart of the issues. What he may be getting at is "religious" vs. secular.

Israel is indeed an interesting case, because as a result of the nature of Israeli politics, the religious parties have insured that public life in Israel is very "traditional" or religious, i.e. everything, but everything is closed on Saturdays, there's no civil marriage or divorce, and on and on. Yet, most European descent Jews are very secular, while "Sephardic" Jews are more traditional. Then you have the Druse and the Palestinian Israelis. It's that tension which results in that placement, I guess.

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## exceededminimumso..

Russia on same level of secularity as Western Germany? *Western* Germany?

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## davef

> There's nothing racist about what Bicicleur said. Traditional values vs rational/secular values in cultures are quantifiable. There's nothing inherently defective about being more traditional or more rational/secular. They're just different outlooks, and as I stated before, I think a balance between the two are ideal in my opinion.
> 
> A lot of those ex-communist countries are high on the secular rational scale, you think that's a better place to live? Perhaps the reason why they have such a high alcoholism and suicide-rate is because anything considered not "rational" or practical is shunned in their societies. There's no room to celebrate life. Not to say that all of the people are like that there, because I'm sure they're not. But ultimately, the culture there may be responsible for that.


Ok when I said that i haven't yet seen the axis where it says "rational", once I saw it I realized that "rational" according to this map means being less "traditional". I took his post as him implying that Japanese people are unintelligent, but he was implying that they're very traditional, so if that's true it's fine with me. 

Still though, it's harsh for this study to use the rational label, its obviously possible to be traditional and engage in religous activities while still having a sound grasp of logic.

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## A. Papadimitriou

> I'm not usually a fan of this kind of thing, but Razib Khan brought it up on an article, and I think it's pretty interesting.
> 
> [..]
> 
> Both religion and political systems are at play.
> 
> See:
> https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...medium=twitter


That's from 1996. The biggest problem apart from the terms they use is that each year they change the questions, so they measure different things.

Greece was close to 'Protestant Europe' 20 years ago and after 2004 started to move towards 'South Asia' along with Croatia and Slovakia. (LOL)

Here a more recent one (2017) based on 2010-2014 data, as far as I understand.
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/ima...conclusive.png

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## bicicleur

> Ok when I said that i haven't yet seen the axis where it says "rational", once I saw it I realized that "rational" according to this map means being less "traditional". I took his post as him implying that Japanese people are unintelligent, but he was implying that they're very traditional, so if that's true it's fine with me. 
> 
> Still though, it's harsh for this study to use the rational label, its obviously possible to be traditional and engage in religous activities while still having a sound grasp of logic.


I know it is an oversimplification, not all Japanese are the same.
I have been in Japan only once and it was 20 years ago.
Maciamo has spent there a long time, he'll be able to tell more.

When I went there Japanese economy, stock exchange and real estate was booming.
And it looked like Japan was going to outcompete the west.
Management guru's told the west should adopt the Japanese model, always making decisions in consensus and not top-down as was still the custom in the west at that time.
What striked me was that everyone was that everyone was following rules and traditions very strictly.
IMO that was because they were afraid to take inititiative and stick out of the crowd.
And their decisions 'in consencus' was a consequence of that, nobody dared to take leadership.
Soon after the Japanese economy busted which confirmed my impressions.

Of course the Japanese are capable of rational thinking, but they prefer to hide themselves behind traditions.
And that behaviour is a big problem for Japan.

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## Angela

> That's from 1996. The biggest problem apart from the terms they use is that each year they change the questions, so they measure different things.
> 
> Greece was close to 'Protestant Europe' 20 years ago and after 2004 started to move towards 'South Asia' along with Croatia and Slovakia. (LOL)
> 
> Here a more recent one (2017) based on 2010-2014 data, as far as I understand.
> http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/ima...conclusive.png


Like I said, I usually distrust this kind of thing. South Asia close to Belgium and Italy. Ah, I don't think so.

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## davef

Today I learned that Greece and Israel are Protestant European countries.

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## Salento

> Today I learned that Greece and Israel are Protestant European countries.


LOL LOL 
That’s funny

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## davef

> I know it is an oversimplification, not all Japanese are the same.
> I have been in Japan only once and it was 20 years ago.
> Maciamo has spent there a long time, he'll be able to tell more.
> 
> When I went there Japanese economy, stock exchange and real estate was booming.
> And it looked like Japan was going to outcompete the west.
> Management guru's told the west should adopt the Japanese model, always making decisions in consensus and not top-down as was still the custom in the west at that time.
> What striked me was that everyone was that everyone was following rules and traditions very strictly.
> IMO that was because they were afraid to take inititiative and stick out of the crowd.
> ...


got it, thanks for making yourself clear!

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## davef

> LOL LOL 
> That’s funny


I know right? This map would've been less moronic if Greece was part of a Greek Orthodox group with its own color code and Israel, well, that's complicated given its home to a majority Jewish and Muslim population.

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## Salento

> I know right? This map would've been less moronic if Greece was part of a Greek Orthodox group with its own color code and Israel, well, that's complicated given its home to a majority Jewish and Muslim population.


Could that be that the “Map” is been fabricated to spread misinformation?

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## Angela

West Germany and Russia being parallel in terms of secular values versus religious ones makes sense. Also, Greece and Israel are placed in Catholic Europe, not Protestant Europe.

It's the most recent map that is the absolute worst. South Asia, where they are murdering people who say they are atheists, where religious differences regularly lead to riots and violence, where marriages are arranged for everyone, and those brides are often minors, where cows are allowed to defecate in the streets and no one is allowed to stop them, where the huge number who are Untouchables still face incredible discrimination, is as secular and rational an area as Belgium, and Italy, and Portugal and Britain? 

Are these people on drugs when they set up these questions and write up their reports? 

This is why the "social sciences" have such a bad rap, and increasingly so as new studies show many of the results we've read about in the media can't be duplicated. It's all fake science, sometimes, I would bet, out of agendas in favor of one thing or another, although here I can't figure out the agenda.

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## davef

Well I guess one could say they're in Protestant Europe since their areas are the same color as Protestant Europe or I guess they're in both for the reason mentioned plus being within the catholic Europe border for some reason. Or maybe the shared coloring is due to them not knowing how to figure out how to group them due to a hilarous lack of problem solving ability; I would've done what I suggested in my last post or surround them with an orange blob labeled "misc".

edit: oh uh right lol orange is already used as a color there. I'll use purple because purple is a fruit

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## AdeoF

> I'm not usually a fan of this kind of thing, but Razib Khan brought it up on an article, and I think it's pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Both religion and political systems are at play.
> 
> See:
> https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...medium=twitter


This map is really not accurate at all. Like how on earth is Israel close/in European culture (and greece is in Catholic). Portugal is in latin America. I guess they dont like European culture much???
I would say english speaking is right but Ireland should be inbetween Catholic and English.
Also where is Islamic?? There is a difference of north Africa and the rest of Africa!!

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## davef

> This map is really not accurate at all. Like how on earth is Israel close/in European culture (and greece is in Catholic). Portugal is in latin America. I guess they dont like European culture much???
> I would say english speaking is right but Ireland should be inbetween Catholic and English.
> Also where is Islamic?? There is a difference of north Africa and the rest of Africa!!


Good catch! This map puts Portugal in Latin America, its like the researchers never bothered learning high school geography or fell asleep during it and received a D- as a sympathy grade lol. 

I wish I caught that earlier, dang macular degeneration

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## AdeoF

> Good catch! This map puts Portugal in Latin America, its like the researchers never bothered learning high school geography or fell asleep during it and received a D- as a sympathy grade lol. 
> 
> I wish I caught that earlier, dang macular degeneration


Yep and also Uruguay is in Europe HahaHaha. Also turkey is in the same culture bubble as Vietnam lol!

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## exceededminimumso..

> Yep and also Uruguay is in Europe HahaHaha. Also turkey is in the same culture bubble as Vietnam lol!


Only in chart in OP, which is simplified version of https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-co...lues_Map-1.jpg where Uruguay is in blue Latin America

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## exceededminimumso..

> West Germany and Russia being parallel in terms of secular values versus religious ones makes sense. 
> 
> .


I guess it made sense in 1996.

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## bicicleur

> West Germany and Russia being parallel in terms of secular values versus religious ones makes sense.


Yes and no. The cult Poetin tries to create with himself in the centre wouldn't work in todays Germany.

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## AdeoF

> Only in chart in OP, which is simplified version of https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-co...lues_Map-1.jpg where Uruguay is in blue Latin America


Anyways the map is still kind of wrong but anyways it's the best it can do

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## Zanatis

This is not a geographical map. Why are you acting like geniuses? 

I do agree that the map seems like a waste of time as it's not really "cultura" per se.

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## Ygorcs

What looks very surprising to me is that India and even Pakistan appear in the graph much less traditional less than Puerto Rico and El Salvador and just as traditional or even less traditional than Brazil and Mexico. It certainly does not feel like that if you grow up and live in those places, particularly if you are a woman. Or, rather, the traditional environment of Brazil certainly does not feel so omnipresent and inhibiting as that of Pakistan or Iran. So, what's going on there? Is it possible that simply what means "preserve our traditions" varies depending on the country and culture? Or then that some cultures, when they are strongly bent on applying and maintainign its traditions, are per se and naturally much less restrictive and more accomodating of differences than the cultures of other nations? That is an issue that maybe should be better investigated by the researchers who made that graph. What specifically and practically determines a social life under "traditional values" may change so much that the tradition of a certain country automatically promotes more the self-expression values than that of others, instead of being necessarily opposed to it in poles one against the other. Certainly the tradition of Brazil or of Mexico do not come with an entire code of laws and jurisprudence, with the respective punishments for those transgressing them, as it does when you talk about "preserving our old ways and customs" in Saudi Arabia.

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## Ygorcs

> It's the most recent map that is the absolute worst. South Asia, where they are murdering people who say they are atheists, where religious differences regularly lead to riots and violence, where marriages are arranged for everyone, and those brides are often minors, where cows are allowed to defecate in the streets and no one is allowed to stop them, where the huge number who are Untouchables still face incredible discrimination, is as secular and rational an area as Belgium, and Italy, and Portugal and Britain?


Really very odd. I'd like to see the questions they used to then analyse and value the data and place the countries in the graph. From the positions of the countries and my knowledge about them, it looks to me that they targetted "traditional vs. secular" and "survival vs. self-expression", but actually hit something like "immaterial and communitary values vs. material and tribe or individual-centered values". That would explain the strange position of India and Pakistan in relation to much more liberal and free countries like Brazil, Mexico or even Italy and Portugal. Some recent surveys found South Asians and East Asians to be among the more materialistic and success-driven peoples of the world, valueing material/professional gains and the social-economic status of themselves and their families a lot more than South Europeans and Latin Americans. In some of those countries, like I was told that is the case at least of Japan and Korea, being "useless" or "improductive" is almost a death sentence. That may be what "secular-rational" really means: more materialistic, more utilitarian, or at least less concerned with non-material goods like fun, social networks and "useless" but relevant experiences and knowledge (living "la bella vita" or "a boa vida" as they, the Latins and Latinos, used to say).

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## Angela

> Really very odd. I'd like to see the questions they used to then analyse and value the data and place the countries in the graph. From the positions of the countries and my knowledge about them, it looks to me that they targetted "traditional vs. secular" and "survival vs. self-expression", but actually hit something like "immaterial and communitary values vs. material and tribe or individual-centered values". That would explain the strange position of India and Pakistan in relation to much more liberal and free countries like Brazil, Mexico or even Italy and Portugal. *Some recent surveys found South Asians and East Asians to be among the more materialistic and success-driven peoples of the world, valueing material/professional gains and the social-economic status of themselves and their families a lot more than South Europeans and Latin Americans. In some of those countries, like I was told that is the case at least of Japan and Korea, being "useless" or "improductive" is almost a death sentence.* That may be what "secular-rational" really means: more materialistic, more utilitarian, or at least less concerned with non-material goods like fun, social networks and "useless" but relevant experiences and knowledge (living "la bella vita" or "a boa vida" as they, the Latins and Latinos, used to say).


You may be right. In terms of the mores of people from those parts of the world being more materialistic and "success" oriented, it certainly comports with my personal experiences with them. I don't know if you've heard of the "Tiger Mom" phenomenon, which I personally think is horrific, but it fits right in with that.

There's also a lack of interest in more "community" activities. America is a very "community" oriented country, with a great emphasis on charity work in the community like in our case fund drives for the local hospital, a group to beautify the shores areas and protect the wildlife there, funding for police/community sports leagues for children, participation in the school parent association, neighborhood watches, gatherings centered around the local church or pool or country club. So far as I can see the East Asian and South Asian families who have started to move in don't participate in anything, although the South Asians are a bit better. 

Or, this may be, as we are continuing to find out, another example of the fact that a lot of "social science" papers are not science at all, and are riddled with subjective judgments and bad statistics, and the findings can rarely be replicated.

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## Zvrk9

So what religion is that un-named upper red color and what unites them? I see 4 religions just between Latvia, Estonia, Bosnia, and Albania and little correlation. 

This author talked about Balkans but clearly knows very little about it.

Chech, Slovakia, Croatia, Hungary and Slovenia are also so-called "Ex-Communist". Same for Italy (1920s and 1940s). Where is (ex-communist) East Germany (author separates them)? 

Where is (communist) Cuba in this graph? How does North Korea fit with South Korea on this graph? 

Neverending need to pigeonhole people and make some kind of theory about that.

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## Zvrk9

I forgot to add, More than 50% of S. Koreans are Christian (Protestant and Catholic).

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