# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  The Normans

## Chris

Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?

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## Maciamo

From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.

But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.

Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.

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## Chris

> From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.


Thanks again, Maciamo. Would I be taking it a step too far to extrapolate U106 to include L48+ amongst the Normans? 

Cheers, Chris

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## rms2

Here is the Normandy Y-DNA Project:

*http://tinyurl.com/26ahmsl*

It's a relatively small project, in part because one must be able to reasonably demonstrate actual Norman ancestry and not simply have a claim.

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## rms2

> From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). . .


By the way, there is as much or more P312 (as a whole) in Scandinavia as there is U106 (as a whole).

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## Chris

A bit off Y DNA script, but for those in reach of UK TV, there is a three-part programme The Normans, BBC 2/HD; Wed 4 Aug at 9:00.

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## Aristander

Anybody know a way to spoof a UK IP address? I get the message, "Not available in your area."  :Angry:

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## DavidCoutts

> From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as t*hey shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.*
> 
> But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.
> 
> Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.



I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.

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## elly

Are you S29+?

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## rms2

> I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.


I believe that is based on Oppenheimer's 6-marker "Frisian Modal Haplotype", which is too short to be worth much of anything. I match it, too.

There are many men of different subclades who match that "bikini haplotype", so it isn't much good for classifying them.

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## Maciamo

> I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.


Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.

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## elly

Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?

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## Maciamo

> Maciamo, Do you think R-L2* in a Scottish Borders surname is Norman?


R1b-L2 (branch of U152) ? In Britain this could either be La Tène Celtic (perhaps of the Belgic branch, as some of them settled around York) or Roman. It's definitely not Germanic.

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## elly

I was thinking Belgae, as, my closest, continental match is a Van Bunschoten from Utrecht, Netherlands, at a 66/15 match.

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## rms2

> Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.


Coutts is L21+, Maciamo. There is plenty of L21 in Scandinavia, but this "R1b-8 Frisian Modal" thing isn't much good. It casts too broad a net and catches men of different R1b1b2 subclades.

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## Yorkie

> Norman or Anglo-Saxon or Scandinavian. All of them settled in Scotland, and all of them shared this haplogroup. It's useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples who originated in the same region, as Germanic peoples all descend from a fairly small group of people who expanded from Denmark and North Germany during the Iron Age.


I wouldn't say that it is entirely useless to try to distinguish Germanic peoples in relation to I1 at least. Arguably, it is _more likely_ that an I1 signal with 22 at 390 and 12 at 462 represents the default, most common type of I1, found in greatest numbers in the Germanic lowland countries and Britain [Nordtvedt; Barac; Tambets]. Conversely, the more Scandinavian-leaning I1 signatures are usually 23 at 390 and 13 at 462. This is not a universal rule but again, the _most likely_ scenario.

Regarding attempts to distinguish 'Germanic' from 'Celtic' R1b, as far as I am concerned, the _most likely_ candidates for the Germanic label are S21 [U106], the rarer S29 [U198] and the 'Norse' cluster of R1b recently marketed by Ethnoancestry [discovered by Ken Nordtvedt] for testing via SNP S182. Frankly, in my view, _all_ other strains of R1b I see as _more likely_ to be Celtic. For example, I regard S28 as La Tene Celtic, given its age and distribution.

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## Yorkie

> I took the EthnoAncestry test and came out as R1b-8 which, according to EA is the "Frisian Model". Is there a chance my ancestors might have been Norman? I know the Normans settled in Scotland.


 David,
As I once said before [on another forum], this 'Frisian' R1b of Oppenheimer's is meant to be ancient and not related to any Frisian component of the Anglo-Saxon invasions. It is meant to represent a much earlier intrusion.

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## Hus

Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?

Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?

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## DavidCoutts

Next year is the 1100th anniversary of Rollo's conquest of what would become Normandy...

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## willy

> Given what is known of the Normans - particularly the invading army of 1066 - what haplotypes would have been likely to be represented amongst them? I know they were of descendents of Vikings, but I'm also interested to know if there were also any Germanics/associated haplotypes known to have taken part?



G2a3b1 but was before a Turkish guest workers in Germany more a kind of Roman recruitment who is the same idea the descendants of these soldiers where assimilated to the Germans and were specialized in the warrior class because the Roman recruitment was not a bad recruitment to survey and control the Empire border on Europe you need valuable men cavalry archery etc ... now you have some English men G2a2b2 named for instance Montjoi who is typically Normand how a "Germanic" G2a3b1 came to England ? the Saxons who adopted a Normand last name ? no a Normand who came to England with William this "Norman" was a descendant of one of these a "turkish guest workers in Germany " but after few generations Germans

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## Yorkie

> Chris, given that in early 1066 the Holy Roman Emperor gave Duke William's embassy his nominal support for the invasion of England, there must undoubtedly have been a force of German mercenaries with the Breton-Norman army?
> 
> Also from Sicily and the many 'rival' regions of France (ie. Anjou), though I doubt if Baldwin of Flanders - inlaw to both Harold and William- was anything other than neutral?


Whether or not Baldwin of Flanders was 'neutral', there was certainly [as is relatively well-known] a Flemish contingent in 'the Great Bastard's' army. Why refer to it as Breton-Norman? There was certainly a large Breton contingent, but equally given the size of the Frankish contribution, one could refer to a Frankish-Norman army. Gascony, Picardy too were represented.

That the mainstay of Rollo's original band was Danish, including Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw is well documented by several historians such as Gwyn Jones, Michael Wood, and Johannes Brondstedt. However, there was a smaller, Norwegian contingent which apparently settled the Cotentin peninsular quite heavily. Lastly, Rollo's band also included a Norse-Gael element; Norwegians who had been in Ireland for some time.

By the time of the 1066 conquest, the 'Normans' were surely not Scandinavian on every line, as intermarriage with Frankish women etc was the norm. Many so-called 'Norman' surnames which allegedly 'came over with the Conqueror' have non-Scandinavian origins. For example...

Bellamy is Frankish
Joyce, Harvey are Breton
Roche is Flemish
Gascoigne is obviously from Gascony

The predominant element in the 'mixed bag' that was the Normans is probably Germanic. However, we should not underestimate the Celtic Breton element. I personally think that Breton settlement, particularly in north Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and East Anglia [Suffolk was at one time a 'Breton soke'] _has_ been underestimated.

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## Aristander

Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.

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## Yorkie

> Yorkie is quite right about the invaders and later land lords of the Saxon's being a mixed bag of scoundrels from the continent. The main thing they had in common was that they were French speaking and in league with the Bastard to take over control of a wealthy and prosperous kingdom.


 'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.

Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans.  :Shocked:

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## Chris

> 'Scoundrels' is probably an apt term, given the appalling 'Harrying of the North' in which vast tracts of rebellious northern England were reduced to 'waste' and thousands butchered.
> 
> Mind you, given the family history, paper-trails and pedigrees, my Maternal Grandfather [in I1-Norse haplogroup] probably descended from the Normans.


Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign. 

The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.

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## Yorkie

> Ditto, Yorkie (U106-L48+ plus surname per Burkes et al). I'm not bothered, as there is a bit of the 'cuddly Celts' syndrome with the Anglo-Saxons, who like the 'Celts', went in mob-handed, knocking about not only the Celts, but also each other for most of their brief (600 year) reign. 
> 
> The Normans were machine-like in their effectiveness, and being 'French' became the bad guys after the middle ages monarchs decided they were English all of a sudden.


Yes, the so-called 'Dark Ages' are dark indeed when it comes to tribal ultra-violence. The 'Harrying of the North' seems to have been on a bigger scale than anything attributable to earlier Norwegian and Danish Viking incursions or anything the Anglo-Saxons did against the Brythons, or indeed anything the Brythons did against the pre-Celtic populations. As far as we know..

You are quite right to be cynical. Judging any of these earlier peoples/cultures through the left/liberal lens of 21st century social science/historical study clearly shows that _none_ of them were remotely 'cuddly'. You are correct regarding the battles between the various Anglo-Saxon divisions of Mercia, Wessex etc. Ultra-violence was a way of life.  :Shocked:

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## DavidCoutts

"Alfred the Great wanted peace. But the Danes came, and the Norse. And so Alfred had to fight, and peace fled from him.

And when Alfred was dead and England was powerful, still more Danes came, and more Norse. And the Brittons marched out of Wales. And the Scots howled down from the North, and what can a man do except fight? For his family, his land, himself.

So I know this: for as long as there are people on this wind-swept isle, there will be war. And we cannot hide from the glory and the horror."

The Burning Land by Bernard Cronwall.

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## thecelt

I realize this is an old thread, but I found it while searching. At any rate, has their been a Norman Modal established yet? I am beginning to think that perhaps my ancient grandfather may have come to the Isles with the Normans.

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## Chris

> I realize this is an old thread, but I found it while searching. At any rate, has their been a Norman Modal established yet? I am beginning to think that perhaps my ancient grandfather may have come to the Isles with the Normans.


I'm also very interested in this, and believe there's a long way to go on the matter. I know there are others on this forum who know far more than I, who may have updates.

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## zanipolo

In regards to the normans, I am interested in what they left behind for DNA in Sicily, Apulia and Durozzo ( Durres ) Albania.
People say there is 1% "viking" dna in coastal Albania

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## Chris

> In regards to the normans, I am interested in what they left behind for DNA in Sicily, Apulia and Durozzo ( Durres ) Albania.
> People say there is 1% "viking" dna in coastal Albania


A fascinating area, and very complex in terms of Norman Y DNA. Again, I know there are experts in this field on this forum who I'm sure will be able to shed light on the matter.

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## rms2

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

The Normandy Y-DNA Project is still a smallish project, but one reason for that is that to be included in one of its regular y-haplogroup categories, you have to actually have some evidence of y-dna ancestry in Normandy. Otherwise, you are gently and courteously placed in the "No Apparent Y-DNA Connection to Normandy" category.

I suspect the actual viking element in Normandy was always pretty small and became smaller as time wore on and viking lines daughtered out. Probably the bulk of the Norman population was Gaulish in origin, with a very thin veneer of viking elite. After all, it wasn't long before all of them were speaking French, so evidently there were never enough vikings in Normandy to affect the full-on adoption of their language and culture.

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## Antigone

Mmm what you are proposing is a very similar situation to the Norman conquest of England. It was only the ruling Elite who changed whilst the bulk of the English population remained in place. It makes sense, but it will be interesting to see if anyone else has something to add. 

Although, one way to judge the extent of Norse influence on native Normans would be to look at the Norman language for any similarities to the Norse.

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## rms2

I don't believe the Norse language had much impact on the French spoken by the Normans, if any. There are a few place names in Normandy that are believed to have been derived from old Norse, but that's about it.

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## Antigone

Norse had quite an influence on the Norman language according to these sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language
http://www.viking.no/e/france/norman_on_words.htm

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## rms2

I was not aware of that; however, it still seems pretty minor. I wouldn't characterize it as "quite an influence", but "quite" is a relative term, I guess.

Under 300 words, some of them of doubtful or debatable origin, in a sea of French vocabulary. That seems a mirror of the Norman genetic picture, actually.

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## thecelt

I am an amature at understanding ydna and potential origins, clusters, etc... but based on the markers i currently have tested I am left with no very close matches anywhere it seems. my ancestry is from Ireland on my fathers side, although my surname is Scottish/English primarily. My str values when ran through the indigenous search on genebase have my highest RMI in Denmark. I know there is a bit of a "warm" spot for L21+ in northern Denmark. Based on that information I am beginning to think that my ancestor may have either migrated to England during the Danelaw time period (then to Scotland, and off to Ireland) or perhaps with the Normans (although I agree that the Normans were largely Gauls under a "Viking" ruling class).

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## Guachelin

> From their Viking ancestry, haplogroups I1, I2b, R1a1a and R1b1b2 (mostly U106). But the same is true of previous Anglo-Saxon and Danish invaders to Britain, as they shared the same region of origin in Denmark and Frisia.
> 
> But the Normans were already well mixed with the native Gallic French, who were predominantly R1b (mostly L21 with some U152 and M167) with I2, J2, G2a, E1b1b and T.
> 
> Because north-west France has so much R1b-L21 like ancient Britain and Ireland, it is very hard to tell which is of British or Gallic origin. The linguistic link between Britanny and Wales suggests that Roman-era Britain and north-west Gaul were quite close, so it's not surprising to find the same dominant haplogroup.


I would think that the Vikings that settled in Normandy, by and large displaced (in a rather gruesome manner) the previous inhabitants, at least the males. 

Even if not, the Y DNA passed down, would not be R1b1, which I suspect was scant in Denmark and Norway, in the 10th Century. 

In other words I doubt that there was any R1b1 or at least a significant representation in Normandy, in the 10th and 11th century, with the exception of Brittany which was long settled and populated by Brits that came over from Brittain.

Then the Alani, a Sarmatian tribe, showed up in Normandy, at first in that part later called Brittany which the Romans called
Armorica, but they spread out eastward. These Alani might account for the R1a1 haplogroup found amongst Normans.

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## Mikewww

> I would think that the Vikings that settled in Normandy, by and large displaced (in a rather gruesome manner) the previous inhabitants, at least the males. 
> 
> Even if not, the Y DNA passed down, would not be R1b1, which I suspect was scant in Denmark and Norway, in the 10th Century. 
> 
> In other words I doubt that there was any R1b1 or at least a significant representation in Normandy, in the 10th and 11th century, with the exception of Brittany which was long settled and populated by Brits that came over from Brittain.
> 
> Then the Alani, a Sarmatian tribe, showed up in Normandy, at first in that part later called Brittany which the Romans called
> Armorica, but they spread out eastward. These Alani might account for the R1a1 haplogroup found amongst Normans.


Actually, the data we have shows that is not the case. There appears to be a lot of R1b from present day Normandy. Where they came from and when I can't say, but there isn't evidence that Vikings replaced the paternal lineages there.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

I've posted this in the past, but I've pulled up the hg mixes (I, R1b, R1a, etc.) from the only French academic studies we have and Northern France looks more like Ireland than England, for that matter.

A great difficulty, though, is that it is hard to tell who a Viking is. There is a lot of R1b in Scandinavia. Relative to the Isles or Northern France, there is less, but it is still significant... and a lot of P312 including L21, not just U106. The Old Norway project shows this.

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## MOESAN

> I don't believe the Norse language had much impact on the French spoken by the Normans, if any. There are a few place names in Normandy that are believed to have been derived from old Norse, but that's about it.


I shall just say what I believe I know about Normandy

1- there was some light Bretons settled in Normandy about the 9/10° century, in the West (department of Manche, Cotentin (North, few) and Avranchais (South, little more) - as a whole, light demic influence
2- phenotypically, the general 'nordic' influence is of some weight in all the northern and central parts or Normandy, very fewer in southern parts (less accesive and moreconservative 'bocage' (groves?) regions: it is noticeable that the sepultures showed a late changement in Normandy, about 9/10° C. also, showing ancient population not too much celtized and keeping traits linked to demic Neolithic influenced populations of France (the better links: with people of the LBK as think some scholars) CHANGING into more robust and 'nordic' + some brachycephalic elements ('alpin'? 'borreby'?) fellows at this time)
3- History speaks about Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) but before that, of Saxons, maybe Frisons, durinng the roman domination period
4- the Northern part of the french 'roman' dialects of Normandy retained 'velar' 'K' and 'G', sometimes slightly palatized at modern times, but very different from the 'normal' Oil french evolution that produced 'TCH' and 'DJ' sounds before ancient latin 'A', turning after into 'CH' /sh/ and 'J' /zh/ - this evolution or absence of evolution links northern normand dialects to picardian dialects spoken in a previously heavy germanized region (with the same remarks concerning modern phenotypes)

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## onslo

Hello! I am I1 DYS390 22 , 464abcd 12-14-15-15 , SNP 253+ all following SNPs: P259-P15-P109-M72-M69-M286-M227-M21-M201-L91-L42-L30-L22-L211-L141-L140-L14-L13- Where do I belong? Germanic,Viking,Goth?

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## DavidCoutts

> Actually, the data we have shows that is not the case. There appears to be a lot of R1b from present day Normandy. Where they came from and when I can't say, but there isn't evidence that Vikings replaced the paternal lineages there.
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
> 
> I've posted this in the past, but I've pulled up the hg mixes (I, R1b, R1a, etc.) from the only French academic studies we have and Northern France looks more like Ireland than England, for that matter.
> 
> *A great difficulty, though, is that it is hard to tell who a Viking is. There is a lot of R1b in Scandinavia. Relative to the Isles or Northern France, there is less, but it is still significant... and a lot of P312 including L21, not just U106. The Old Norway project shows this*.



While there is a lot of R1b L21+ in Scandinavia, I was under the impression that it was defined by some fairly strict parameters on Subclades. For example, the "Germanic" S28. So if you are L21+ and don't have this particular Subclade, chances are your male ancestors were not Germanic/Norse.

Of course, this may change in the future as new L21+ Subclades are found or existing ones are researched more deeply. The problem with L21+ is that it's an overachiever: it crops up all over Europe which makes narrowing down one ancestry via DNA frustratingly difficult.

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## mihaitzateo

My opinion is that normans were not norse vikings,but geatish/sverige vikings (that is south swedes vikings) or danish vikings or a mix of geatish/sverige vikings and danish vikings.

What is written on wikipedia is a wrong supposition,about normans being descendants of norse (norwegian) vikings.
If they would have been descendants of local population mixed with norse vikings,how come in Normandy you can not find norse R1a1 (in fact I doubt you can find any R1A1 in Normandy)?
But the percentage of I1 is much higher in Normandy,than in the rest of France.
And in south Sweden is a very high percentage of I1A,much higher than in Norway.
In Gotland there is almost 50% I1A and is pretty clear gotlanders are descendants of some geatish vikings.
If you take Scotland or Ireland,where norse vikings settled there is a good percentage of norse R1A1 there.

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## Guachelin

> My opinion is that normans were not norse vikings,but geatish/sverige vikings (that is south swedes vikings) or danish vikings or a mix of geatish/sverige vikings and danish vikings.
> 
> What is written on wikipedia is a wrong supposition,about normans being descendants of norse (norwegian) vikings.
> If they would have been descendants of local population mixed with norse vikings,how come in Normandy you can not find norse R1a1 (in fact I doubt you can find any R1A1 in Normandy)?
> But the percentage of I1 is much higher in Normandy,than in the rest of France.
> And in south Sweden is a very high percentage of I1A,much higher than in Norway.
> In Gotland there is almost 50% I1A and is pretty clear gotlanders are descendants of some geatish vikings.
> If you take Scotland or Ireland,where norse vikings settled there is a good percentage of norse R1A1 there.


In conversation with ethnoancestry I was informed that there were two versions of R1a1 amongst the "Vikings"
YCAII 19/21 is New Norse (Norwegian, essentially a patriarch who migrated north of Oslo), YCAII 19/23 is old Norse. I am confirmed R1a1a1, SNP Z93+, I have a documented ancestor name of Henry Ferrar who was a wealthy landowner in the England of Henry VII, Ewood Manor, Midgley, WRY. 

Many a researcher traces us (probably wrongly) back to Henri de Ferriers St Hillaire (Henry de Ferrers) a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverell is responsible for the slaughter in the north when Aedwin of Mercia, realizing that the Domesday Survey was to be used for tax assessment, reneged on his oath of fealty to Guillaume. An oath that he and other Saxon Barons took to preserve their own fiefdoms.

I'm not so sure of these purported genealogies, though there is a documented lineage to Henry via a maternal line. I'm left considering three possibilities.

1. A Sarmatian auxillary stationed at Ribchester, Lancashire which is not far from Midgley, WRY

2. A Hungarian courtier in the entourage of Margaret Aetheling

3. An Alani whose descendants moved east from Armorica (Brittany) which the Romans had permitted them to raid and settle. There was a rich Alani grave found at Airan, Normandy, which is not far from the home of Guachelin de Ferrieres St Hillaire.

There are other possibilities, however England during the reign of Henry VII was very stratified, there were land owning nobility (titled or untitled, the landed gentry), peasants and an emerging class of peasant tradesmen and laborers, that lived mainly in commercial centers. The Ferrars of WRY were wealthy landowners, and thus had to have some "upper class" origins, so perhaps they were descended from de Ferrers.

I do know that the six DYS used by Capelli in his census of the Y Chromosone in the British Isles, were found
in Faversham and Uttoxeter, both locations where Henry de Ferrers and his children and descendants set down roots.

There were nine other locations (Orkney, Shetlands, Northern Scotland, and these six markers were found in Northern Germany, Norway as well), however those six markers do not tell the whole story because they don't include SNP's.

Any comments, or ideas?

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## MOESAN

> In conversation with ethnoancestry I was informed that there were two versions of R1a1 amongst the "Vikings"
> 
> 
> 
> 3. An Alani whose descendants moved east from Armorica (Brittany) which the Romans had permitted them to raid and settle. There was a rich Alani grave found at Airan, Normandy, which is not far from the home of Guachelin de Ferrieres St Hillaire.
> 
> There are other possibilities, however England during the reign of Henry VII was very stratified, there were land owning nobility (titled or untitled, the landed gentry), peasants and an emerging class of peasant tradesmen and laborers, that lived mainly in commercial centers. The Ferrars of WRY were wealthy landowners, and thus had to have some "upper class" origins, so perhaps they were descended from de Ferrers.
> 
> I do know that the six DYS used by Capelli in his census of the Y Chromosone in the British Isles, were found
> ...


i ANSWER YOU AND ALSO THE WAY MIHAITZATEO
you:
the roman "Armorica" was not only the actual Brittany but the Channel shores too: it is pretty sure that Sarmatians or Alans left very little traces in actual Brittany (the bulk of them seams have been settled Northern France)
Mihaitzateo:
I find very astonishing this affirmation there was a majority of Swede vikings in Normandy: what I red is that there AND norse vikings AND danish vikings, and perhaps, mixed with them, a lot of partially Scots of Ireland and Scotland "vikingized"

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## mihaitzateo

@Guachelin:
Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans.

back to topic:
According to history Rollo is either a son of a Danish king or a norwegian.Historians are still arguing about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
Thing is were most viking were from,seems that they were most from geatish/sverige + denmark vikings and very few from norse vikings if you take DNA tests from Normandy.
In Heimskringla is told about a war between geats and a norse king,which should have been around same period Rollo went to Normandy :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Fairhair's_campaign_in_Götaland
So it seems that time,the relations between svears+geats (which were south swedes) and norse (which were norwegians) were not that great.
These things are weird.
And that things will become even more weird,Beowulf is an epic english poem,written in old english,which tells about a geat hero,Beowulf,who went to help a danish king to fight against some powerfull creature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf
As is known,normans went to conquer England:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_conquest_of_England
This happened in the year 1066 and Beowulf is not known when was written but is told to be written between 8th and 11th century.
(pretty likely was written either in Normandy or in England).
So the connection between these things comes naturally.

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## Guachelin

mihaitzateo said
Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans 


Thank you for your consideration.


My surname is Farrar (Ferrar, Ferror). My earliest documented ancestor was a wealthy landowner (untitled nobility) and merchant during the reign of Henry VII, a feudal era. Given his wealth (he bought land and built Ewood Manorl as well as other land, and his family bought a lot of land and manors throughout England, but mostly in the midland counties). It has been an article of faith amongst Farrars that we are of the de Ferrers, whose ancestor was Henry de Ferrieries St Hillaire, a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverel, Harried the North, to put down the rebellion of Aedwin of Mercia and Morcar his brother.


This was a rather firmly held belief until SNP testing revealed that the R1a1a1 Farrars (there is also an I1 Farrar, and an R1b1 Farrar) were Z93+ L342-. 


This rules out Viking and rules in Eurasian (Sarmatian). Z93+ is an anomaly in 15th Century Britain. We are not Arab, Indian,
Tatar (peoples who have Z93+)


This leaves the following choices, as I try to trace my ancestral heritage
1. A Sarmatian cavalryman stationed along Hadrians Wall (there was a Roman Castra at Ribchester in Lancashire, which is not that far from Ewood Manor, Midgley, West Riding Yorkshire)


2. An Alani whose descendant wound up in Ferrieres St Hillaire, Normandy. Per Taedeuz Simulirski. A richly furnished grave with Sarmatian grave goods was found at Airan, FR, which is 75 miles from Ferrieres St Hillaire.


3. A Hungarian courtiere in the court of Margaret Aetheling.

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## zanipolo

> mihaitzateo said
> Well if you have R1A1 that norse branch is clear is from some scandinavian vikings,very likely from normans 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your consideration.
> 
> 
> My surname is Farrar (Ferrar, Ferror). My earliest documented ancestor was a wealthy landowner (untitled nobility) and merchant during the reign of Henry VII, a feudal era. Given his wealth (he bought land and built Ewood Manorl as well as other land, and his family bought a lot of land and manors throughout England, but mostly in the midland counties). It has been an article of faith amongst Farrars that we are of the de Ferrers, whose ancestor was Henry de Ferrieries St Hillaire, a companion of Guillaume le betard conquerant and a Domesday Commissioner, who with William Peverel, Harried the North, to put down the rebellion of Aedwin of Mercia and Morcar his brother.
> 
> ...


Russian and DNA forums reveals this type to be from the Cumans, yes from the steppes, but settling in Hungary after the dark ages

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## Guachelin

> Russian and DNA forums reveals this type to be from the Cumans, yes from the steppes, but settling in Hungary after the dark ages


Thank you, but then that leaves the question of how is it that my paternal DNA has been in England since before the reign of Henry VII, and were wealthy merchants and landowners.

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## FBS

Is J2b2 really Norman or are just Semite traces in them? Anyone knows the answer?

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## zanipolo

> Is J2b2 really Norman or are just Semite traces in them? Anyone knows the answer?


would J2b2 have existed prior to the creation of the semites?

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## FBS

> would J2b2 have existed prior to the creation of the semites?


Well, I was hoping to get sort of an answer from someone since it was quite strange for me to find J2b2 in this list as Norman http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults while I do not think that J2b2 is Norman, at least I never read it anywhere confirming it.

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## Theosis

I'm of documentable, middle-grade noble Siculo-Norman heritage (my ancestor was a general under Robert Guiscard, and helped him greatly in conquering Sicily for Western Christendom)...Arctic blue eyes and all, still here as evidence of the Viking blood...and I belong to Y-DNA G2a (P15)...apparently a common Sicilian genetic ancestry?...

Anyway, I'm Siculo-Norman or Italo-Norman, and that's my input...

Who knows the meaning?

If G2a is really mediocre peasant Levant farmer blood, over time merging with Aryan-Alan tribes, and sublimating its blood into superior caste, so be it... Anyone who calls me an "Afro-Asian" or "Hamitic" should have sword in hand, however. :) I look nothing like an African-Asian hybrid--fully European... 

Shoot, learning the ugly truth, "sucks", as the plebeians say nowadays...

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## Theosis

I think tagging complex genetic expressions to historical and ethnic conceptions, should be done very carefully...

If I am Western European ("seigneurial" rights would be mine if I moved back to Sicily--never mind, I forget the demonic Communists killed off the Italian nobility senselessly) who looks nothing like some brutish, semi-ape creature from Hither-Asia, maybe our correlations need to be re-done?

This talk of G2a being simply "Neolithic Semitic Turks" is insane--this narrative cannot be the whole truth! Not that I have anything against Semites--I simply am proud of my line, as basically historical Berserk-blooded "miles Christi" who meritoriously stood up for Christ and the West...

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## MOESAN

G2a is maybe neolithic, surely E

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## MOESAN

Sorry,
Y-G2a is maybe neolithic (it would need some more precise SNP), surely of geographic anatolian-caucasic origin - 'Turc' is a very "wide" ethnic name, as 'Semitic', and irrelevant for a lot of 'G2' bearers...
SO don't be sorry ...
and speaking about male 'line' tracing back to far past centuries is somehow aventurous.

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## Theosis

> Sorry,
> Y-G2a is maybe neolithic (it would need some more precise SNP), surely of geographic anatolian-caucasic origin - 'Turc' is a very "wide" ethnic name, as 'Semitic', and irrelevant for a lot of 'G2' bearers...
> SO don't be sorry ...
> and speaking about male 'line' tracing back to far past centuries is somehow aventurous.


"Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?

I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.

Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.

Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...

As Dante rightly asserted, nobility is virtue; and inherited nobility is dead unless the "title-deeds" of virtue of the the originally ennobled individual are kept in mind as the meritorious quintessence of nobility. I have no downtrodden socialistic heartburn over my Italo-Nordic ancestor who vindicated the place of Sicily in European Christendom in just war against alien presence.

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous. 

Are the traces of G2 in the Jewry and Palestinians perhaps indicative of ancient Indo-European Persian or Hittite-type lineal ingression? Hebrews openly confess how ethnically mixed they are--an Indo-European assimilation of nearby "Indo-Hittite" ethnic substance is worth considering in this context...

The Scytho-Sarmatian, Sauromatian and Alanic tribes seem the more probable generative ethnic groups--G2 is the most mysterious male genetic group by far, from my preliminary studies--all these related Paleocaucasian tribal entities explicitly "ARYAN"/Iranian/Iranic, ethnoculturally. The very same tribes introducing horse-battle tactics, mounted horse-archery, the very idea of "knighthood" to their Celtic-Germanic cousins in the West; soldiery of Iranian ancestry commandeered to Hadrian's Wall, the NUMERI EQUITUM SARMATARUM, is possibly interwoven in the Arthurian Grail mythos and thus to G2 "speculative history"...

If I am Turkish, then all Europe is Turkish! Where did the ancient Norse chiefs attribute their origins, the original Latins of Rome, etc.? "The TROJANS," they declared, esoterically. Troy is in TURKEY; Homeric Troy is known as one of the settled, nuclei of paleo-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian culture (whose origins appear ultimately, probably semi-Arctic and Siberian, the Greek "Hyperboreans"), and the Vikings claimed descent from scattered Trojan remnants. Search: Tiras...

BTW, every Western European ethnic group is traceable to paleo-Iranian Eurasian origins (with Basque-like exceptions of complex enigmas). The precise missing link overlooked by historians? Try researching the "GETAE", "THYSSAGETAE", and "MASSAGETAE" and "SAKA" of Asia...Indo-Iranian/Aryan folk who suddenly magically became "Western Germanic", "Gothic" and "Saxon" without further explanation...

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## sparkey

> G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous.


Let's be more specific with time periods. Moesan was correct in that much of the G2a certainly arrived in Europe, probably from Anatolia, during the Neolithic. We have Neolithic samples from Europe proving that it was there by then (including Ötzi!). At the same time, you're right that "G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata." Sure, and some of the G2a in Europe probably came with the Indo-Europeans. Maciamo explores which is which in depth here. Do you know your subclade more precisely than just G2a? That would help us help you figure out when your patriline got to Europe. (And yes, a Turkic introduction is unlikely regardless.)




> The Scytho-Sarmatian, Sauromatian and Alanic tribes seem the more probable generative ethnic groups--G2 is the most mysterious male genetic group by far, from my preliminary studies--all these related Paleocaucasian tribal entities explicitly "ARYAN"/Iranian/Iranic, ethnoculturally. The very same tribes introducing horse-battle tactics, mounted horse-archery, the very idea of "knighthood" to their Celtic-Germanic cousins in the West; soldiery of Iranian ancestry commandeered to Hadrian's Wall, the NUMERI EQUITUM SARMATARUM, is possibly interwoven in the Arthurian Grail mythos and thus to G2 "speculative history"...


Most of these ethnic groups have little chance of being as old as G2, which is about 17,000 years old. You really need to talk about much more specific subclades to have this narrative make sense. It indeed seems likely that Sarmatians would have carried some G2, but what type of G2? 




> BTW, every Western European ethnic group is traceable to paleo-Iranian Eurasian origins (with Basque-like exceptions of complex enigmas). The precise missing link overlooked by historians? Try researching the "GETAE", "THYSSAGETAE", and "MASSAGETAE" and "SAKA" of Asia...Indo-Iranian/Aryan folk who suddenly magically became "Western Germanic", "Gothic" and "Saxon" without further explanation...


What are you talking about? There's no evidence that the Getae, Thyssagetae, Massagetae, or Saka were Germanic.

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## MOESAN

[QUOTE=Theosis;400295]"Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?

I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.

Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.

Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...

G2a being Anatolian, Hither-Asiatic is simply moronic. G2, is prominent among the lordly Indo-Aryan and Iranian stata; and G seems, along with R and I, to be the proto-Indo-Iranian/European haplogroups, upon research. Even the Merovingian dynasty carried my blood! G2 as "foreign" "Hither-Asiatic", quasi-Ethiopian-type, is ridiculous. 

If I am Turkish, then all Europe is Turkish! Where did the ancient Norse chiefs attribute their origins, the original Latins of Rome, etc.? "The TROJANS," they declared, esoterically. Troy is in TURKEY; Homeric Troy is known as one of the settled, nuclei of paleo-Indo-European/Indo-Iranian culture (whose origins appear ultimately, probably semi-Arctic and Siberian, the Greek "Hyperboreans"), and the Vikings claimed descent from scattered Trojan remnants. Search: Tiras...

_Wow!!! OK OK! you are sure of your male ancestry, I'm glad for you -
I think you did not understand too well my post
I never spoke about your supposed "racism", I was trying to explain that Y-G is a genetic haplogroup but very undetermined based on portions of chromosome Y and that 'turkish' or other ethnic terms can not be linked without proofs to a so widely spred HG, which downstream was carried by different people, collectivities sometimes, individuals sometimes, at different times to different places - who ever spoke about 'Ethiopians' for Y-G? and was neolithical agricultors a bad ancestors stock?
I need no answer from you, it was just to precise some points, Sparkey gave you good enough answers. I'm very fine tonight !
have a good night
_

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## zanipolo

> "Adventuresome"? Howso, Sir?
> 
> I have a certified copy of the nobiliary grant of arms and title of "cavalry commander" (in modern terms) in my hands, fellow. In the early Renaissance my lineage had faded somewhat, and its rank was contested; the Holy Roman Emperor himself intervened and "ratified" the surname and family network's as basically, after the Conquest, "middle-nobility baronage" and ancient in origin.
> 
> Do I sound like a dolt bereft of erudition to you? I know my own root-stock.
> 
> Above, my words carry possible overtones of "racism"--let me declare I am fanatically anti-racist, based on ELITIST principle, outraged socialistic humanity... Ha, there you go...
> 
> As Dante rightly asserted, nobility is virtue; and inherited nobility is dead unless the "title-deeds" of virtue of the the originally ennobled individual are kept in mind as the meritorious quintessence of nobility. I have no downtrodden socialistic heartburn over my Italo-Nordic ancestor who vindicated the place of Sicily in European Christendom in just war against alien presence.
> ...


Please expalin how you can be turkic, because Turkic was in central asia when G2 moved into Europe, there was no turkic in anatolia, middle-east or caucasus at that time........how can you be sarmatian when sarmatians only existed from 700BCE, G2 moved thousands of years before then.

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