# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  1600 year old wreck of Roman cargo ship found in Caesaria harbor

## Angela

For anyone who thinks sailing in the Mediterranean was easy, at least if you hugged the shore, it wasn't and isn't. This sank right in the harbor.

(What was the recent movie which included some scenes about a storm in the Mediterranean that sank a modern ship?)

Articles about this discovery can be found on all the archaeology sites. This is one of them:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-...aesarea-005902

"An underwater survey in the ancient port of Caesarea has uncovered thousands of coins and bronze statues dating to the 5th century AD."

How nice: they recycled! :)

"“These are extremely exciting finds, which apart from their extraordinary beauty, are of historical significance. The location and distribution of the ancient finds on the seabed indicate that a large merchant ship was carrying a cargo of metal slated recycling, which apparently encountered a storm at the entrance to the harbor and drifted until it smashed into the seawall and the rocks”, said Jacob Sharvit, director of the Marine Archaeology Unit of the IIA, and adds,“A marine assemblage such as this has not been found in Israel in the past thirty years. Metal statues are rare archaeological finds because they were always melted down and recycled in antiquity. When we find bronze artifacts it usually occurs at sea. Because these statues were wrecked together with the ship, they sank in the water and were thus ‘saved’ from the recycling process”."

My favorite Bronze statues of the Classical Age...They too were "saved", thank goodness!



If you google the Bronzes of Gerace and then click on the picture it gives you a much better idea of the mastery of the artist. 

There's nothing like them again until Michelangelo's David. 

LeBroc, if you read this, they have the "Greek" nose and feet. :)

Here are some of the finds. Since I undoubtedly descend from some of the residents of Luni, when I get tired of my current avatar, I may use this likeness of the goddess Luna.

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## bicicleur

these cargo vessels relied on the wind
when there was a storm, or when there was no wind at all, these vessels were completely steerless

the finds will look good in some museum

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## LeBrok

That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?




> these cargo vessels relied on the wind
> when there was a storm, or when there was no wind at all, these vessels were completely steerless
> 
> the finds will look good in some museum


 I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.

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## Angela

> That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?
> 
> I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.


Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. :) The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.) 

The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a079495002.jpg






I think the Greek actor Andreas Konstantinou has the same look, although unfortunately the extreme high rootedness of the classical "Greek" nose seems to be in shorter supply nowadays.


Alexis Georgoulis?


Maybe be even Joe Manganiello? The eyes are much smaller though, as is often the case for Italians versus Greeks.



The modern movie I was thinking about was Wolf of Wall Street, where the yacht went down in the Mediterranean. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person. Too bad such good movies have to be made of such pond scum.

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## Yetos

> That's a great find. These two guys to me look like two Jews in greek realistic style. Yes?
> 
> I would imagine that at least they had couple of oars to maneuver in a harbor. Surely, no good for a journey. It is amazing however what they could do with this simple sail they had.


come on,

can't you recogn a Jew beard from a Greek or a Spanish etc?.

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## Angela

> Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. :) The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.) 
> 
> The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a079495002.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe some Turks have retained a bit of that look too?Bolgar Gulsoy:

@Yetos,
There's no need to get so snippy with LeBroc. Eastern Europeans haven't spent their whole lives surrounded by Greeks and other southern Europeans, so the finer points may escape them, plus my original pictures were very small. 

And no, I don't think there are these distinct differences in beard type. It's just that while Ashkenazim are indeed predominantly a Mediterranean population, the extreme bottleneck which they underwent and then the addition of some Eastern European means that they can often have a very distinctive look. 

In my opinion, the Sephardim are much more difficult to categorize. Some of them can look very Middle Eastern:


Some, like Hank Azaria, for example, can look very Italian. I guess it depends how much genetic material they picked up in Europe, as well as chance. Coincidentally, I just saw that on DNA Land, some Sephardic Jews get a big chunk of "Italian".

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## LeBrok

> Do you mean the Bronzes from Riace? They're representations of Greek warriors. I don't think they look much like Jews at all. They look like Greeks and Italians to me. (My husband insisted that the one on the left looked just like him, but he was always a very conceited man. :) The nose is totally different compared to his, which has a decided curve, while the statue does not, although I'll give him the body.) 
> 
> The picture I posted is probably very deceiving because it cut down on the size drastically. (These statues are very large in actuality, 203 and 197 cm; it's part of what makes seeing them in the flesh so awe-inspiring.)
> 
> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a079495002.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Lol, the wreck from Caesarea had led me there. Just for curiosity, do we have jewish statius from same time frame?
Interesting part is that these beards don't have bald spots under lips, corner of the lips. They are totally full beards like this one:


And this one with matching greek nose:


Could be used as a genetic marker to trace a line to the founding population.

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## LeBrok

> come on,
> 
> can't you recogn a Jew beard from a Greek or a Spanish etc?.


Can you give us examples of styles of jewish beards from 2000 years ago?

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## Yetos

> Can you give us examples of styles of jewish beards from 2000 years ago?


well conservatives societies keep a liitle of the religious tradition,
so it would not be much different than today Orthodox Jew rabi priests,
yet the clothes surely are different.

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## Angela

> Lol, the wreck from Caesarea had led me there. Just for curiosity, do we have jewish statius from same time frame?
> 
> Interesting part is that these beards don't have bald spots under lips, corner of the lips. They are totally full beards like this one:
> 
> 
> And this one with matching greek nose:
> 
> Could be used as a genetic marker to trace a line to the founding population.


Jews weren't allowed to create graven images, so no statuary of their own. There are captive Jews recorded by other empires. This is from the time of the Assyrian empire. 


They are carved into the Arch of Titus in Rome from the destruction of Jerusalem and their enslavement, but I can't find really close, detailed photos.


This is a coin struck for Herod Agrippa, not much of a Jew, and also you can't tell much from it:
http://mefacts.org/cache/html/israel...Agrip1port.jpg

There are also reconstructions done of remains from ancient Israel, but as always, I'm rather skeptical of reconstructions:

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## Angela

Since Samaritans haven't intermarried with anyone else for over 2000 years they're worth a look, although there are two caveats: they've undergone a lot of drift, and the Judeans of the day thought they were admixed with some other Assyrian strain.









I don't recall ever seeing a Jewish man with a "Greek" or even a "Roman" nose, although probably some do exist. 

In my opinion the young man you posted doesn'tquite have a "Greek" nose, as the distinguishing feature of that nose, in addition to the straightness of it, is that there is an unbroken line between forehead and nose. It looks to me as if there is a definite indention at the root. This is more how I see it. 

Fabrizio Rongione-actor of Italian descent:





He can't grow a beard at all; he should give up. :)

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

First I think we all agree, that is so beautiful that only Greek -even if not it was- will call them.


From what I know the Jews or even broadly the Semitic world, left no such analogous naked men trust -even if wearing Boeotian type perikefalaia (helmet)-, and foreskin(ακροποσθία) ;;;
 or as we would say in English, Full covered !?. :Thinking: 
I also find extremely difficultfor the Jews at that time to spent material, I mean money and effort to portray two personalities? as Heroes? Gods?City founders? ...


Still,
material technical and aesthetic performance meet the already known Greek standards such as:
Zeus or Poseidon of Artemision

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0...AF%CE%BF%CF%85

also the famous Charioteer of Delphi
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%97%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CF%82_(%CE%AC %CE%B3%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1_%CE%94%CE%B5%CE%BB% CF%86%CF%8E%CE%BD)
​

the horseback teen

http://odysseus.culture.gr/h/4/gh430.jsp?obj_id=6221
etc.


They speculated that were built in Athens'- the Reggio warriors-in a workshop difference of about 30 years? there are also proposals for some sculptors such as -Krisilas? -Antinor?
They respond both - despite the difference date manufacture; to aesthetic standards and principles of Polycleitus which briefly indicates a wider waist Shorter thighs in contraposto attitude, as opposed to the development in the cross and the proportions in the subsequent years of Praxiteles and later to walk away and smaller heads of Lyssipos.
.https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxiteles
.https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos


But what they are; Who are they?
It could be a cluster of statues of three, eight or ten statues? or only the two.
What position were in town?- Devoted to Agora? in a Shrine? in a Stadium?
Clusters of two men is not original issue, as Castor and Pollux, and a more earthy version and possibly more relevant to the theme of Reggio warriors, is Αρμόδιος and Αριστογείτων
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmodius_and_Aristogeiton
or
Pericles and Ephialtes tyrannicides?
http://autochthonesellhnes.blogspot.gr/2015/02/blog-post_6.html


I have some doubts about some conclusions, but the photo is incomprehensibly great.


 
 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Q4yU1JqgeC...20176946_n.jpg


stay focus on the picture for a while ... Astonishing!
(panax use google translator!)

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## Angela

> Nana: From what I know the Jews or even broadly the Semitic world, left no such analogous naked men trust -even if wearing Boeotian type perikefalaia (helmet)-, and foreskin(ακροποσθία) ;;;
> or as we would say in English, Full covered !?.


You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.

https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpr...-07-30-021.jpg

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## LeBrok

> You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.
> 
> https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpr...-07-30-021.jpg


One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.

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## Angela

> One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.


It did, and the people in the Near East did become very Hellenized, with the notable exception of the Jews, or at least with the exception of a good number of Jews.

With the break-up of Alexander's kingdom the so-called "Seleucid" empire, founded by one of his generals, ruled Israel. Some Jews were indeed influenced by Hellenism, but like stupid rulers before and after them the Seleucids went too far. Under Antiochus III they first attempted to put statues of their gods, "idols" in the parlance of the Jews, into the Temple. Predictably enough, the Jews rebelled. The "idols" were removed, and things quietened down. Antiochus IV went even further, restoring the statues, but also trying to outlaw circumcision, which the "Greeks" saw as a disgusting alteration to the human body, and the celebration of the Sabbath. Under the 5 sons of Mattathias, the Maccabees, as they came to be known, initiated a twenty year rebellion which proved ultimately successful. The surviving son became the founder of the Harsmonean dynasty, and for about 80 years, Israel was independent again. The last members of the family were put to death by Herod, an Idumean. The purification of the Temple which was undertaken by the victorious Maccabees is what is celebrated on Hanukkah. 
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...Maccabees.html

This prohibition on the erection of "idols" and by implication in creating them has a great deal to do, I think, with the fact that there are no Jewish artists using the human form until the modern era beginning in the late 19th century. It's only then that we get artists like Marc Chagall and Amadeo Modigliani. 

La Mariee-Marc Chagall
http://www.abbeville.com/images-cata...interior03.jpg

Modigliani:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9818c0e56a.jpg

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> You're right...from what I can remember, there's no male equivalent to this kind of representation of Ashtarte anywhere in the Middle East, not even among the fertility pantheon of the Canaanites.
> 
> https://albertaweinberg.files.wordpr...-07-30-021.jpg


 :Petrified:  my x-wife.

When I was typing about "males"... that lady I was thinking about...


I mean also that the two males, did not applied a ceremonial practice of circumsizion (-dont know to spell but that dont hurts actually!)- which probably could be representative to a large portion of mediterenean males.
As far i know Egyptians for sure, if not Ethiopians; and Libyans; also well practice that circum-hurting things to their young males millenium before common era; 


I am wondering if it is proper or not to expand to details, because i thing this is a kind of "taboo" matter, close to western habbits and not only...Herodot mentioning some nice stuff about the phallic symbols which established from Pelasgians... I will no extend.
But appear naked in public, it was first in the Olympics, the name of the person i cnt remember or even the time but close enough to 650-550 B.C.E- not for sure.
But for what I am sure is that these two guys are Greeks, Hellenes. Who are they, is still debateable.
Too old to be athletes, probably not gods because they carrying shields, admirals; generals; political leaders; heros; is the most possible. There are some achetypical features of the one eyed -the youngest- which addresses to Pericles of Athens. 
The jewish scenario for me rejected for all the above + post#12. 


Greek noses, feets, myths etc.
...(eyes;)
The "buttonhole" eyes is typically common in the Westerners Greeks also and to some mountaineers of the islands, like in Crete or Naxos etc. The bulby and big eyes correspond for me with Anatolians and Aegean folks in general, maybe with some risky extend, I think that this small, dark, sparkling eyes are representative of a Dorian stock; but also Dinaric;


(noses;)
The greek noses of the "Archaics" is slightly differential from the "Classics" or even the Minoans and the Aegean people-as depicted in art.
Why the nose so enormously straightened so up; We have to remind ourselves that "Classic's" is not realism but in most, reasonable idealism. When we "meet" the "beauty" we cannot ignore it, so in the cases of the noses among others, the artists used to follow patterns with religious devotion, especially when they inspire divine calmness and not human passion.
The long noses of Phillip the 2nd depictions and images address also some Dinaric features;


(feet;)
The Archaic Kouros don't respond to the typical as we imagine -today- "greek nose", allthough always with exceptions , but not to the majority of Kouros (sons) and Kores (daughters).
 The "Archaic Son" needed almost ~250,(+/-50years) slightlysepeate his steady arms from his ribs and almost, smething more than a millenium to move his left feet;! In the amazing distance of 3/4 of a feet... -and stoped, for a while...

I mention all the above to explain , how fast, or slow -as we consider- the exelixis took apart.
I ment strictly on sculpture, and i will not accept any associations and therorizations about lazy Greeks,- which up on the peak of their "career" - just walk a dinstant, less of a feet in a thousand years !  :Laughing: 

(for post#11.)
Fabrizio Ronzone also tending to be Dinaric; and I mean, big nose as succesfully you mention with the unbroken line of the nose with the forehead, that could be greek but,
the jaw and the lips, dont respond to typical mediterenean shapes not the even colours of the flesh. 
That's just my thought.

some Kouros unfortunately with less profile photos
http://peritexnisologos.blogspot.gr/...og-post_6.html


(panax did not use-d google translator.)

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> One would think that the Greek style would have spread together with Greek culture around the empire after Alexander's conquest.


That "One" could be Buddha?


What this guy doing there? :Confused: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Buddha-Vajrapani-Herakles.JPG


Poseidon of Gandahar;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/PoseidonGandhara.JPG
 or
An Indo- Corinthian column capital with "Macedonian" Buddha; 3rd century C.E. !!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BuddhaAcanthusCapitol.JPG


From 4th B.C.E to 13th century of C.E !!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art
The influence of Greco-Buddhist art also spread northward towardsCentral Asia, strongly affecting the art of the Tarim Basin, and ultimately the arts of China, Korea, and Japan.

Politics, Religion and Onesicritus ! -..." That the best philosophy [is] that which liberates the mind from [both] pleasure and grief"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism#cite_note-Strabo_XV.1-7
 It was a cultural consequence of a long chain of interactions begun by Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of the Indo-Greek Kingdom and extended during the flourishing of the Kushan Empire. Buddhism *was then* adopted in Central and Northeastern Asia from the 1st century AD, ultimately spreading to China, Korea, Japan, Philippines, Siberia, and Vietnam

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> It did, and the people in the Near East did become very Hellenized, with the notable exception of the Jews, or at least with the exception of a good number of Jews.
> 
> With the break-up of Alexander's kingdom the so-called "Seleucid" empire, founded by one of his generals, ruled Israel. Some Jews were indeed influenced by Hellenism, but like stupid rulers before and after them the Seleucids went too far. Under Antiochus III they first attempted to put statues of their gods, "idols" in the parlance of the Jews, into the Temple. Predictably enough, the Jews rebelled. The "idols" were removed, and things quietened down. Antiochus IV went even further, restoring the statues, but also trying to outlaw circumcision, which the "Greeks" saw as a disgusting alteration to the human body, and the celebration of the Sabbath. Under the 5 sons of Mattathias, the Maccabees, as they came to be known, initiated a twenty year rebellion which proved ultimately successful. The surviving son became the founder of the Harsmonean dynasty, and for about 80 years, Israel was independent again. The last members of the family were put to death by Herod, an Idumean. The purification of the Temple which was undertaken by the victorious Maccabees is what is celebrated on Hanukkah. 
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...Maccabees.html
> 
> This prohibition on the erection of "idols" and by implication in creating them has a great deal to do, I think, with the fact that there are no Jewish artists using the human form until the modern era beginning in the late 19th century. It's only then that we get artists like Marc Chagall and Amadeo Modigliani. 
> 
> La Mariee-Marc Chagall
> http://www.abbeville.com/images-cata...interior03.jpg
> ...


Rock me Amadeus!
I am amazed of Chagall's goats with flute, which repeat them also to other of his paintings. 

Nice points, i generally agree, i would like to do some mentions about the Epigonae (Alexanders succesors), which are responsible for the (bad) image who offered us for Alexander.
totalitarian, vicious, barbarian, etc.

but is late for me and i will probably totally derail the whole thread.

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## Angela

"This idealisation of nudity marked the Greeks out among ancient cultures of the Mediterranean. 'It was shameful to appear naked to the Persians,’ says Jenkins. ‘When you see representations of naked men on Syrian _bas_ reliefs or in Egyptian sculpture it is because they are victims of war, they are failed human beings and it is a mark of their dishonour. In ancient Greece it's the hero who is shown naked, but that's not the norm for other peoples of the ancient world.'"

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bodysphere/new-exhibition-highlights-greek-beauty-ideal/5650086

Certainly it wasn't the norm for Semitic peoples apparently.

As for circumcision, the earliest documentation of it is among the Egyptians. Perhaps the Hebrews adopted it from them. Every once in a while someone in the U.S. starts to argue against it, but it never works; virtually every baby boy is circumcised in the hospital soon after birth. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...e_circumcision

There was indeed a great deal of idealization at certain periods. "Though truer in its general effect to nature, this selection [Early Classical] is sometimes arbitrarily 'ideal', most obviously in the Grecian profile which unites forehead and nose in a continuous straight line and in the unguinal ligament which supports the belly and marks the trunk off from the legs.
http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/antiquity/greek-sculpture-early-classical-period.htm

Two of my favorite Greek busts:

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## LeBrok

> my x-wife.
> 
> When I was typing about "males"... that lady I was thinking about...
> 
> 
> I mean also that the two males, did not applied a ceremonial practice of circumsizion (-dont know to spell but that dont hurts actually!)- which probably could be representative to a large portion of mediterenean males.
> As far i know Egyptians for sure, if not Ethiopians; and Libyans; also well practice that circum-hurting things to their young males millenium before common era;


Circumcision could have had sense in pastoral tribes of hot climate. The sand can get everywhere, cut skin and make infection, or something to do with other hygienic problems. How often people could bathe in desert environment?
Having said that I'm not a fan of any type of body mutilation.




> The jewish scenario for me rejected for all the above + post#12.


As I mentioned before, I thought they were from Caesarea.




> (noses;)
> The greek noses of the "Archaics" is slightly differential from the "Classics" or even the Minoans and the Aegean people-as depicted in art.
> Why the nose so enormously straightened so up; We have to remind ourselves that "Classic's" is not realism but in most, reasonable idealism. When we "meet" the "beauty" we cannot ignore it, so in the cases of the noses among others, the artists used to follow patterns with religious devotion, especially when they inspire divine calmness and not human passion.
> The long noses of Phillip the 2nd depictions and images address also some Dinaric features;


 That's true, the unnamed art is most often pictured with a perfect greek nose, however busts of famous known people usualy don't have it. Look at Socrates.


However, we can find many people in Western World with perfect greek nose, it certainly exists and it is not just a figment of imagination. It must have been very common back then in Greece.






> I mention all the above to explain , how fast, or slow -as we consider- the exelixis took apart.
> I ment strictly on sculpture, and i will not accept any associations and therorizations about lazy Greeks,- which up on the peak of their "career" - just walk a dinstant, less of a feet in a thousand years !


 Hey, lazy people wouldn't be able to manage 4 slaves all they long. :)

If you care, we indolged more into nosie subject here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ty-by-the-nose

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## Yetos

the thin nose of Greeks is a myth,
I believe it meant straight from above eyes,

Although, at many philosophers and Athenean style we find that nose

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## Angela

Some definitions of the "Greek nose" do simply refer to an unbroken line from forehead to nose. Other people just use it to mean a very straight nose with a relatively high root. However, I don't think there's anything mythical about what is called the "classical Greek nose", as defined as a high rooted, narrow bridged, straight and long nose. As the art historian I quoted above pointed out, it seems to have been the perfect nose to the ancient Greeks, and so they "idealized" it and gave variations of it to "idealized" heroes or gods and goddesses. However, it must have existed in nature even if everyone didn't have it. They got the model from somewhere. As LeBrok pointed out, there are even people living today who have it. 
Some examples from modern times who I don't think were included:

Admiral Nelson is one, although there is a slight dip at the eyes.



The leading military leaders of the day were all big nosed men, although the Duke of Wellington's was rather "unusual". I can't even call it Roman.



Canova idealized Napoleon's nose to make it more "classical".
 

He definitely smoothed out the slight "Roman" bump at the bridge. There was nothing he could do about the dip at the eyes.

This is probably closer to what it really looked like:


This is an interesting picture from the era itself. Maybe Wellington's nose was broken later in life. 


Ah well, enough interesting trivia. I've just always been one of those people who wanted to know what people* looked* like, not just what they did. I do believe you can tell a lot about someone just by looking at the face, as unscientific as that may seem.

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## Angela

I've got it! The model for one of the Bronzes of Reggio was a time traveling Luca Calvani. :)



Or better yet, Mariano Di Vaio




Well, not exactly, I know.

Who says these similar types of phenotypes don't still exist though?
We keep selecting for certain looks, for obvious reasons.

Ed. The classical era male bust I posted above is supposed to be of an actual person, Antinous, the lover of Hadrian, reputed to be the handsomest man of his age.

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## Angela

Antinous:


His distant cousins...



Raoul Bova may finally have to step aside for Antonio Cupo. :)

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## LeBrok

The last one could be a perfect greek, the classical model, nose and everything.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

...(continue)
Αs i mention to my previous posts which kindly supported with Angela's links and confirmations...
Greek art is idealism and not realism, in the contrary, of that the majority of people believe. 


@Angela #19
the young man - which instictively I thought it could be, Ganemedes or Dionyssus- is also Hellenistic; he weared a gariand; a golden wreath; -as also the beutifull girl with her's "wounded" neck; -The flower's are Roman;...and her breathing lips.., are Roman copy of hellenistic period? 


@Le Brok, about circumcision, it could be also possible to practiced from agriculturalists, after hygiene demands;- but surely with fully ceremonial religion practices; maybe also - to naturalized as members or "citizens";.
with your consent thats my perspective... 
It reminds me the prehistorical myths of Uranus and Cronus... with some intense need of Gaia or the God,s for -little, as enough, blood!-a "modest" sacrifice for fertalization or -maybe- a sort of "manipulation" of the males, under the will of/for community (;)... From the brave and free(;) will, individual, to the faithfull on duty calls, collectivist...sort of type;


The Egyptians as i posted, surely enforced with their, cleansing "mania", -shaving body, hair, many baths everyday, white clothes; etc.
 (need some time for Herodot..)
I speculate at the time of pax Aegyptiaca, propably the circumcision adopted from.


I also believe that "greek nose" exists. Also the "toes", the blue/black curly hair. the round shaped... back's, etc.
which can easily recognise to today Greeks, but
Maybe it was my fault to engage terms and meanings of "art" with "anthropology" terms, which probably not well combine together... I was just asking. _Who are they? -the Reggio/Ρήγιο warriors...


for the head of Socrates and others...as posted #20
It belongs to a different era from classic's, I suspect that probably -the one you post -is a roman copy of an hellenistic period ,which allready indicates the significant turn to more pragmatistic values and at last realism at Roman period.
I mean that, if the "ancient sculptor"-actually, more than a dozen sculptors, plus the archicraftsman;- who could tried to make Socrates,at the real time, when the philosopher was alive... ...that it could be unacceptable, it consists blasphemy at the worst of its kind!
-Probably would all both, exiled to the islands, at the best case scenario.
(by the way Socrates, was sculptor). 

and he is an actor
https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CE%9...FSokRfd1SZM%3A


even if the hypothesis of the example,
- let us to have-, Socrates "marbled bust", to the time of "Reggio's warriors", that bust,could possibly look with all the divine characteristics of eternal youth, -classic's, is proper to name them;- that would appear, with tottaly different features, from this we allredy-as Socrates- today recognize.
If, he was God, Hero, Founder, the icon of Socrates how could be look like...?
 a" bold and unshaved Akhenaton!" -strange isn't it?




@Angela, @Le Brok
 If the Greeks -of that time- had -the majority; or some minority; or even all of them; that, all, the specifigues traits, which we usually and commonly address as greek, the next problem will probably we have to solve is:
*Why the avant-guarde, the elite -excuse me for my enthusiasm- ,all this world class personalities, which recognize and attested as Greeks, do not carry nothing of the so, "greek features" ?**Why the avant-guarde, the elite**all this world class personalities, which recognize and attested as Greeks, do not carry nothing of the so, "greek features" ?*


a briefly example of some of them.
http://www.greek-language.gr/digital...ary/index.html 


The greek art, especially the classics are "illusion" and not real, eternal young but also mature as Zeus ?!. This phenomena would last for another ~200yrs, or more 50+;... (plus another ~300years of the stepping -Kouros- son,as explained to post#16
So what happened; (rhetorically answeriring)... ?
Who was able to fund busts, and the bodies of these... bipod mammals; mortals; -the humans I mean, with wrinkles and almost tired ... and what was their purpose... ?
Socrates... and sceptical? I am also skeptical, about that...

So what we conclude?

i) These persons are not Greeks._
ii) Clever and nice persons, do not have beautifull noses._
iii) Panax is an exception._
and
(iv) The Greeks(with their noses and their intelligence) moved to Western Europe and left alone, back in Greece the fool with noses like eggplants, fully covered with body hair... Damn and ugly and fool...and alone... but ready, ready, and prepared from a long time ago... waiting and awaiting, not for the mighty Persians, not even for the Ottomans, but all the world to against them. The bloody name of that curse was I.M.F. ... (next Episode ,tsipras,reforms ancient space shuttle technology and ten naked Myrmidons without a penny in their pocket!)

Getting intrigued?- No!

-Illusion; There is no "straight line", allthough that they appear everything straight and in tact on, ...*Parhtenon,..* under the will of the constructors, and not by accident... everything is curved.

You cannot approach the Greeks -"Classics", as spreadly known- without Religion*Religio* spectacles.
 Everything it is about the "divine perspective"... of the viewer, of the craftsman, of the God/Godess...you believe.
-"do as you believe" or "do, your believe".

That; is what i believe.
-*Reggio warri*.

----------


## Yetos

Panax 

you forgot something.

except the nose
is also the foot,
and the wavy, not grapy hair/beard,

----------


## Angela

> ΠΑΝΑΞ;480757]...(continue)
> Αs i mention to my previous posts which kindly supported with Angela's links and confirmations...
> Greek art is idealism and not realism, in the contrary, of that the majority of people believe. 
> 
> 
> @Angela #19
> the young man - which instictively I thought it could be, Ganemedes or Dionyssus- is also Hellenistic; he weared a gariand; a golden wreath; -as also the beutifull girl with her's "wounded" neck; -The flower's are Roman;...and her breathing lips.., are Roman copy of hellenistic period?




I wish I knew the provenance of that statue. I love it for itself and also for personal reasons. The only description of it I've ever seen is that it is a "Greek statue". It wouldn't surprise me to discover it's an Italian copy or even that it was modeled and carved in Italy.

Yes, Antinous looks like Ganymede in that statue. Hadrian was so besotted he had him carved in various incarnations.

This is supposedly Antinous as Osiris:


And then deified:



Now, whether they're all Antinous, or even whether Antinous really looked like this, or they portrayed him like this precisely because he was supposed to be the handsomest young man in the world, I don't know, and I don't think anyone else knows either. 




> @Le Brok, about circumcision, it could be also possible to practiced from agriculturalists, after hygiene demands;- but surely with fully ceremonial religion practices; maybe also - to naturalized as members or "citizens";.
> with your consent thats my perspective... 
> It reminds me the prehistorical myths of Uranus and Cronus... with some intense need of Gaia or the God,s for -little, as enough, blood!-a "modest" sacrifice for fertalization or -maybe- a sort of "manipulation" of the males, under the will of/for community (;)... From the brave and free(;) will, individual, to the faithfull on duty calls, collectivist...sort of type;


Well, the rationale in the U.S. is that it's a health issue. Virtually every white baby boy gets circumscribed, over 90% I think. Pediatricians are adamant about it. ( Hispanics have the lowest rate, but it's high even among them. There's even outreach in minority communities to educate them about it.)They do it in the hospital. My father was against it, but my husband was insistent. As a new, first time mother I had to leave the room.  :Sad 2: 





> The Egyptians as i posted, surely enforced with their, cleansing "mania", -shaving body, hair, many baths everyday, white clothes; etc.
> (need some time for Herodot..)
> I speculate at the time of pax Aegyptiaca, propably the circumcision adopted from.


That makes sense to me too. Blowing sand could be a nasty problem.




> I also believe that "greek nose" exists. Also the "toes", the blue/black curly hair. the round shaped... back's, etc.
> which can easily recognise to today Greeks, but
> Maybe it was my fault to engage terms and meanings of "art" with "anthropology" terms, which probably not well combine together... I was just asking. _Who are they? -the Reggio/Ρήγιο warriors...


So do I, and not only in Greece. I definitely have the toes, and if Flora's nose were just somewhat smaller, that could be my profile.




> for the head of Socrates and others...as posted #20
> It belongs to a different era from classic's, I suspect that probably -the one you post -is a roman copy of an hellenistic period ,which allready indicates the significant turn to more pragmatistic values and at last realism at Roman period.
> I mean that, if the "ancient sculptor"-actually, more than a dozen sculptors, plus the archicraftsman;- who could tried to make Socrates,at the real time, when the philosopher was alive... ...that it could be unacceptable, it consists blasphemy at the worst of its kind!
> -Probably would all both, exiled to the islands, at the best case scenario.
> (by the way Socrates, was sculptor). 
> 
> and he is an actor
> https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CE%9C%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%B7%CF%82+%CE%A0%CE% B1%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B7%CF%84%CF%81 %CE%AF%CE%BF%CF%85&sa=X&biw=1430&bih=764&stick=H4s IAAAAAAAAAONgFuLVT9c3NEzOys4tNC_KUeLSz9U3yLJIMyhO0 eLxzS_LTA3Jd0wuyS8CAJtpgp


MrAAAA&tbm=isch&imgil=k7ARM68RBSwpvM%253A%253Btlds bpCtdNA_RM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.naftem poriki.gr%25252Fstory%25252F736667%25252Fmakis-papadimitriou-na-allaksoume-emeis-oi-idioi&source=iu&pf=m&fir=k7ARM68RBSwpvM%253A%252Ct ldsbpCtdNA_RM%252C_&usg=__7ChglLFgAOZ7Rd_3iyUQBrhJ YBU%3D#imgrc=4uJFSokRfd1SZM%3A

[/QUOTE]

That makes sense to me too. Good catch on the actor. He does look like him. 




> @Angela, @Le Brok
> If the Greeks -of that time- had -the majority; or some minority; or even all of them; that, all, the specifigues traits, which we usually and commonly address as greek, the next problem will probably we have to solve is:
> *Why the avant-guarde, the elite* -excuse me for my enthusiasm- ,*all this world class personalities, which recognize and attested as Greeks, do not carry nothing of the so, "greek features" ?*
> 
> 
> a briefly example of some of them.
> http://www.greek-language.gr/digital...ary/index.html 
> 
> So what we conclude?
> ...





> Everything it is about the "divine perspective"... of the viewer, of the craftsman, of the God/Godess...you believe.
> -"do as you believe" or "do, your believe".




Now you've lost me and you've also gone into a political rant which is totally off topic and totally uncalled for.

As to what *was* on topic, I took a look at all those representations and I saw Greek noses and eye shapes aplenty (given those aren't profile views), although certainly not on all of them. Handsome men of a certain age, most of them, wrinkled, care worn, with their lives written on their faces, who haven't been idealized. What the sculptors were doing at a certain point in Greek history is like what air brushing does to a picture of an actress in a magazine. I know something about this because for two awful years after university I worked in advertising. This is done all the time. It's her alright, but with all imperfections smoothed away. It's what happens when they shoot a sequence of an older actress or actor through fine gauze. It's what Canova did to "idealize" Napoleon's slightly bumpy and rather pointy nose. 

I repeat what I said above, they had to get the model from somewhere. Did they imagine a nose shape which never existed, which they'd never seen in the flesh, or certain types of toes, or certain body builds on women (which I find too hippy for the breast size to be honest, but that's what they thought was beautiful). Some dippy bunch of "researchers" did a survey of a random collection of Brits and found that 3% had "classical Greek" noses. That was *Britain*. You're telling me that in Greece you don't have at least that many? You tell me. I've only been to the islands, and that only once, but it was certainly my impression that some of those handsome young men had very nice classical Greek noses. Not that other kinds of noses can't also be very attractive, of course. If there's a lot fewer of them now than there once was, perhaps it's drift, or perhaps it's the Slavic invasions. I have no idea, but I know that this kind of outburst is inappropriate, and I don't know what on earth what LeBrok and I posted can have to do with any perceived conspiracy against Greece.

----------


## Maleth

> Well, the rationale in the U.S. is that it's a health issue. Virtually every white baby boy gets circumscribed, over 90% I think. Pediatricians are adamant about it. ( Hispanics have the lowest rate, but it's high even among them. There's even outreach in minority communities to educate them about it.)They do it in the hospital. My father was against it, but my husband was insistent. As a new, first time mother I had to leave the room.


Hmm, I dont know why Pediatricians are adamant about circumcision in the US....and of course its not in relation to religious reasons like Jews and Muslims. There is a good reason for the foreskin to stay on and eventually cause more discomfort due to sensitivity later on, that otherwise should be protected. All the baby needs is just one pull to uncover the glance and no scissors needed  :Sad: . They will function very well and be hygienic too. Its funny that a 'god' / nature created concept for protection, has become part of some religions rituals to remove what 'god' created  :Sad: ........removing foreskin is also known to reduce sexual stimulation.

----------


## Yetos

I am proud that I am not,

*and here in Greece we consider that as stupidity,*

millions and millions male raise with out circumcision,
what hygiene and crap
the only problem is that a very small number about 1/10000 might cause φιμωσις phimosis that is why all mothers the first year do as Maleth said.
or at least let the baby play with its hands.
it is a natural action to male babies to touch their organs

----------


## Angela

> Hmm, I dont know why Pediatricians are adamant about circumcision in the US....and of course its not in relation to religious reasons like Jews and Muslims. There is a good reason for the foreskin to stay on and eventually cause more discomfort due to sensitivity later on, that otherwise should be protected. All the baby needs is just one pull to uncover the glance and no scissors needed . They will function very well and be hygienic too. Its funny that a 'god' / nature created concept for protection, has become part of some religions rituals to remove what 'god' created ........removing foreskin is also known to reduce sexual stimulation.


In the U.S. it certainly has nothing to do with religion. Jews make up about five percent or so of the population. There aren't very many Muslims either. 

There are a few naysayers, but most doctors strongly recommend it. Our pediatrician felt it should be mandated, like vaccinations. As I said, it's almost universal among white Americans, although the same type of mothers who don't want their children vaccinated are starting to decide against circumcision. For most white couples it's an absolute no brainer. They probably spend five minutes thinking about it. (Hispanics are different because they come from a different culture.) A couple I know where the husband immigrated here as a grown man from Italy decided not to have it done to their son. It turned out that my husband was right and it was the wrong decision. The boy wasn't happy about it later on. Adolescent boys don't want to be different from their male peers or the subject of whispers by the girls. Like so many other things, it boils down to cultural norms. 

Anyway, this article discusses it.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...3/585.abstract

The Center for Disease Control is even advocating it for for adolescent and grown men as a prophylactic measure. 
http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/...health-reasons

@Yetos
Well good for you. I'm happy you're happy with your body. What I'm not happy about is your insulting comments about practices in another country. 

Must most of what you post be insulting in some way or the result of some bizarre paranoia or conspiracy theory? Did I say anything derogatory about uncircumcised men? Take a chill pill, buddy.

----------


## Maleth

> In the U.S. it certainly has nothing to do with religion. Jews make up about five percent or so of the population. There aren't very many Muslims either. 
> 
> There are a few naysayers, but most doctors strongly recommend it. Our pediatrician felt it should be mandated, like vaccinations. As I said, it's almost universal among white Americans, although the same type of mothers who don't want their children vaccinated are starting to decide against circumcision. For most white couples it's an absolute no brainer. They probably spend five minutes thinking about it. (Hispanics are different because they come from a different culture.) A couple I know where the husband immigrated here as a grown man from Italy decided not to have it done to their son. It turned out that my husband was right and it was the wrong decision. The boy wasn't happy about it later on. Adolescent boys don't want to be different from their male peers or the subject of whispers by the girls. Like so many other things, it boils down to cultural norms. 
> 
> Anyway, this article discusses it.
> http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...3/585.abstract
> 
> The Center for Disease Control is even advocating it for for adolescent and grown men as a prophylactic measure. 
> http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/...health-reasons.


I guess we have different experiences. My partner has been circumcised at Birth and told me he wished he hasn't mainly for the sensitivity issues. I mean some doctors argue that foreskin is necessary for savages to be protected from grasses and tree branches and the modern man does not need it anymore  :Rolleyes: . As if we now do not wear underwear these days even if its the softest of cotton its non stop friction and I presume people wear them for the best part of the day. Some bathing suites can be pretty rough too, depending on the style. Doctors used to argue on removing the appendix and tonsils too. Now there are strong cases that these are useful and should not be removed unless there are complications which would be the exception and not the rule (especially with tonsils that apparently the do save a great deal of chest infections and some lung complications). In regards to the studies done in Africa in regards to std's transmissions I cannot help but being VERY skeptical on how these are done and the interests involved. Also the issue in regards to transmission is the full exposure of the glans which is perfectly possible without circumcision and just a matter of education. Only rare cases would need to be 'operated'. 

My skepticism in these kind of studies has been further fueled now by some study in Denmark that proibotics are all hype, when myself they were the only thing that have helped my IBS issues, and given me my life back (and its not in the mind). (Just to give an example). Also its not the first time we hear of a study contradicting another. 

I guess at the end of the day its everybody to their own oh how they see things as long as they feel convinced its the right thing ;) :)

----------


## Yetos

> @Yetos
> Well good for you. I'm happy you're happy with your body. What I'm not happy about is your insulting comments about practices in another country. 
> 
> Must most of what you post be insulting in some way or the result of some bizarre paranoia or conspiracy theory? Did I say anything derogatory about uncircumcised men? Take a chill pill, buddy.


that is a main difference of how people think, how science work, dogma, and nature.

it is not only in USA,
many Greek friends from Deutschland (sons of immigrants) that I know they had it at hospital, by a pushing of doctors as hygiene, they almost forced parents to accept
I do not know why, that is happening, to West countries, 
but I believe it is against nature, a myth, 
same with female cut of clitoris,
same with pragnacy, ceasarian section to modern world is multiply the possible of need,
*and that Stupidity is at my country*, which the number 'ceadare' mothers is so high, that is surely 8 and more times the need of possible death at pregnacy,

Besides IS Imoral TO DO SUCH TO A KID, A VIOLATION OF CHILDREN RIGHTS, 
*SINCE NO EPIDEMIC, NEITHER SERIOUS DANGER EXIST,

*
*besides shaving is also hygiene,* 
but how many men are shaving every day or two?

sorry in greek the word is ωμος χαρακτηρας,
means straight character, I can not hide behind my finger, that is why I did not become a politician  :Laughing:

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

something went wrong with my post...??????.....Vanished...
i wii try to find some time... next time

Do you believe that was my [email protected],
I was slightly have Fun to with conclusions (i). (ii), (iii), (iv)etc. Humour=Χυμώδης=juicy!  :Rolleyes: 
Sorry,
my posts are #12,16,17
That; is what i believe.
-*Reggio warriors deserve their own thread .
*



No Hard feelings my lady, my respect to @le Brok and to you and your Family.
Hope not to get upset. Thanks for the host.




[/QUOTE]

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> Panax 
> 
> you forgot something.
> _No you Forgot to... come to Athens ... call..._ .
> 
> except the nose
> is also the foot,
> and the wavy, not grapy hair/beard,


_when you come, I will prepare your nose... and a Buddha, haircut.. nothing else to worry. )_

----------


## Angela

> I guess we have different experiences. My partner has been circumcised at Birth and told me he wished he hasn't mainly for the sensitivity issues. I mean some doctors argue that foreskin is necessary for savages to be protected from grasses and tree branches and the modern man does not need it anymore . As if we now do not wear underwear these days even if its the softest of cotton its non stop friction and I presume people wear them for the best part of the day. Some bathing suites can be pretty rough too, depending on the style. Doctors used to argue on removing the appendix and tonsils too. Now there are strong cases that these are useful and should not be removed unless there are complications which would be the exception and not the rule (especially with tonsils that apparently the do save a great deal of chest infections and some lung complications). In regards to the studies done in Africa in regards to std's transmissions I cannot help but being VERY skeptical on how these are done and the interests involved. Also the issue in regards to transmission is the full exposure of the glans which is perfectly possible without circumcision and just a matter of education. Only rare cases would need to be 'operated'. 
> 
> My skepticism in these kind of studies has been further fueled now by some study in Denmark that proibotics are all hype, when myself they were the only thing that have helped my IBS issues, and given me my life back (and its not in the mind). (Just to give an example). Also its not the first time we hear of a study contradicting another. 
> 
> I guess at the end of the day its everybody to their own oh how they see things as long as they feel convinced its the right thing ;) :)


Well, my "experience" of it is of a different "nature", so to speak, and not extensive even then, so I'm not a leading personal authority. :) I've always wondered who on earth these women are who feel competent to participate in surveys about the love making abilities of all these nationalities of men. As to the differences as men see them, I would think it would be difficult to judge even for them unless they had "experience" in both "states", so to speak, but again, I'm not competent at all to judge in that case. 

I basically just didn't want my son to feel "different" or "odd" in his world, so on balance I think it was the right decision, especially given the research, although I agree that one should take all medical research with a bit of a grain of salt. They've been wrong a lot of times. Also, perhaps more importantly, it was something my husband felt extremely strongly about, so I deferred to his judgment in something so related to male sexuality. There's also something to be said for a son "looking" like his father in this case.

----------


## Angela

> something went wrong with my post...??????.....Vanished...
> i wii try to find some time... next time
> 
> Do you believe that was my [email protected],
> I was slightly have Fun to with conclusions (i). (ii), (iii), (iv)etc. Humour=Χυμώδης=juicy! 
> Sorry,
> my posts are #12,16,17
> That; is what i believe.
> -*Reggio warriors deserve their own thread .
> ...


[/QUOTE]

It used to happen to me all the time too. Before you click on post make sure you save everything you've written (just highlight and click copy), because after a certain amount of time the program sort of clocks you out.

That's fine. I'm not offended. You'd know if I were really offended! :) Plus, I'm no believer in so controlling what's posted that it all becomes like reading a mechanic's manual. I just get the feeling sometimes that the responses are to things said on other sites, not here. I try never to be disrespectful to any group, and certainly not to Greeks. I can't tell you the number of times I've had Greeks say to me when they discover that I'm Italian, "Una faccia, una razza", which is indeed true to some extent. Oh, and we have some men with "eggplant" noses too. I did love that analogy!. So vivid. :)

I wondered whether you literally meant that the bas relief of Ashtarte looked like your wife. Given Ashtarte's virtually perfect body, in my opinion, in that representation I'd say you were a lucky man if she looked like her, although looks are indeed not everything. Of course, the face is a bit square and stern, yes? So perhaps, if physiognomy is any judge of character, a bit domineering and controlling? In my experience with Mediterranean men indirection is sometimes the easiest path for getting your own way if you can stomach it, otherwise you can spend your whole life battling things out. Not that battling doesn't add some spice to life and make reconciliations very sweet. 

It may be a stereotype and very exaggerated, but I laughed out loud when I saw this commercial. I've been there, shall we say! Only I was usually the one telling him to go home to his family. :) Everybody wanted to live with my mother, including him, so he would have wanted to go along if I went home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov3G0oC798E

----------


## Maleth

> I basically just didn't want my son to feel "different" or "odd" in his world, so on balance I think it was the right decision, especially given the research, although I agree that one should take all medical research with a bit of a grain of salt. They've been wrong a lot of times. Also, perhaps more importantly, it was something my husband felt extremely strongly about, so I deferred to his judgment in something so related to male sexuality. There's also something to be said for a son "looking" like his father in this case.


Perfectly understandable

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

​https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...ISXdy3rMIO78ii


https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CF%8...xhl856Y5-_M%3A


(wish not to bother you with details, just a comment)

Her kindness oftenly, enjoyed a lot.... the teaser Pan. (Yes, she is.)
It don't look... like "first time", actually looks!
*PAN:*
_-Have we ever met... ?_ 


_Eros, / Mars son:_
_"-Hey leave her... now !_ 

_Her's delicate hand..._ 


_( some informations)_
_http://www.namuseum.gr/object-month/...jun10-en.html#
_

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

My case story and how the hunter becames... the hunt. She was an athlete at 110m. hurdles, running as fast as with her bike... I had to impress her. The drama processed in four minor actions and one major destruction... Late summer, the place cape: -Sounio Attica, Temple of Poseidon... 





_I dragged her to the caves,


and wait...


*


...at night,


I gaved her salt, breath...


and Τime...


*


...the morning cames.


She gaved me, her beauty and a boy...


Α boy, -Sun!


*


That Sun, my Son...


a Sun, who burns and lights...



*


Now dying,


burned.
_ 




ΠΑΝΑΞ ΕΠΟΗΣΕΝ

----------


## Angela

> ​https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...ISXdy3rMIO78ii
> 
> 
> https://www.google.gr/search?q=%CF%8...xhl856Y5-_M%3A
> 
> 
> (wish not to bother you with details, just a comment)
> 
> Her kindness oftenly, enjoyed a lot.... the teaser Pan. (Yes, she is.)
> ...


It's a really lovely piece of art, and I think she's beautiful, but Pan strikes me as a "creeper" in my daughter's language, a pervert following you around, or an old lecher, not a teaser.  :Annoyed: 

Plus, he went one step further and put his hand on her. She should slap him in the face with that shoe she's carrying! That would teach him... :Grin: 

For our members, an English language description of the piece.
http://www.namuseum.gr/object-month/.../jun10-en.html

She has one of the highest rooted noses I've ever seen. Maybe even more pronounced than Fabio Rongione's. 

http://mythagora.com/bios/gallery/im...phrodite11.jpg

http://1.fwcdn.pl/ph/85/08/678508/376111.1.jpg

The poem is very nice. Who wrote it?

----------


## Yetos

hahaha

we do not know what is written under the shoe,

many ancient used marks under their sandals, written messages that could be understood as signs,

----------


## Yetos

ΠΑΝΑΞ probably as another Παν is in love with Aphrodite

but I would put him a temptation




Νικη της Σαμοθρακης
trying to step at the front edge of a ship? or to fly?

since we do not know the golden/ivory Virgin Athena
(we assume it was like Βαρβακειος Αθηνα)
Ι consider Νικη as the most beautifull female statue, with far behind to be Aphrodite

yet as always something is missing, (damned christians),
but that is ok, I can imagine her with every face I want,

----------


## Angela

> hahaha
> 
> we do not know what is written under the shoe,
> 
> many ancient used marks under their sandals, written messages that could be understood as signs,


Yes, I know about the sandal trick, but it would be for someone like him, not that Pan! :)

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

I think Aphrodite allready applied a sandal slap to his face (-Look at Pan's nose)*,but he stills enjoyed and happy to receive another one... 


The light is the protagonist, it depends the time... Sometimes Aphrodite looks to enjoy also. (As in real myths)


The poem is mine and I first write a poem in English.

I tried to post pictures but I couldn't...

This story is mine, is real, and i am me. 

@ Angela , I tried to be concetrate and timeless, I hoped you recognise also, many icons of an archetypical genesis
the Water/Male/Oceanus/Uranus, to the other pole the beauty of the earth Mother/matter the Gaia/and Gyny gr.-Γυνή... etc etc 

But you probably ask

Dying?
Because as parents that is what we have to do.  The mortality, is the hope for the new to come. 

So, we live in a no time moment, ok Enough

I cannot explain, but you allready know that is something deep behind it and that's true.

I feel Rudiculous to say more because i cannot afford much English to serve myself.

I Thought you could loved the pictures (real places), unfortunatelly i couldn't post it. 

the title is:
from salt and time. It is the before time story of the Cosmos... in a day which is a period ....(stop ,Now.-)

and big Thank you @Angela because you were the reason to write it, - you asked me about my Aphrodite.


Damn Insomnia... I should be in sleep at 10:30 

Ι wil lose my job @yetos...
I will answer all guestions, motorcyles and cars included...in time!


*

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## Angela

> I think Aphrodite allready applied a sandal slap to his face (-Look at Pan's nose)*,but he stills enjoyed and happy to receive another one... 
> 
> 
> The light is the protagonist, it depends the time... Sometimes Aphrodite looks to enjoy also. (As in real myths)
> 
> 
> The poem is mine and I first write a poem in English.
> 
> I tried to post pictures but I couldn't...
> ...


You're quite welcome. Yes, I did get some of the symbolism; very appropriate. Thank you for the explanation.

If you want to post pictures from the internet, click on the square image above, third from the right. Then make sure From URL is highlighted, and click on the mark next to retrieve remote file so the check mark disappears. Now, move the cursor to the start of the long URL box and click. If you've highlighted and copied the url of the internet picture previously, just click on paste from your browser tools and it should appear there. Click OK. When you post, the image should appear. 

Or, you can just highlight the url of the picture you like, click copy from the tools on your browser, place your cursor where you want it to appear, and then click paste from your tools. The url should appear and people can click it to see the picture.

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