# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Admixture in "White Africaners"

## Angela

I think it confirms things we've known: about 3% SSA and 3% South Asian.

See:
https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/09/22/the-...of-afrikaners/

Oh, the irony.

In American, going by the "one drop" rule, they would all have been relegated to the "back of the bus".

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## Ygorbr

I actually expected even more, but, anyway, for those who were or are so obsessed about racial purity and about exclusive and artificially strict distinctions between races, this result must be a scandal ready to be properly hidden. I expected even larger proportions due to the initial decades of colonization when the Afrikaner community wasn't still as well defined as a distinct ethnicity. In Brazil, where interbreeding and intermarriage has always been much more common, it's not even very surprising when, sometimes, genetic results include light-eyed, pale-skinned individuals with as much as 20-25% of non-European admixture.

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## Jovialis

> Oh, the irony.
> 
> In American, going by the "one drop" rule, they would all have been relegated to the "back of the bus".


Even more irony, is that some of the people that wrote those laws might not be able to pass it themselves.




> Researchers reportedly examined the genetic records of 145,000 people who submitted saliva samples -- where DNA sequence variations are found -- to 23andMe, a California-based private company that provides ancestry-related genetic reports. *From the data, researchers determined that people especially from the South have at least 1 percent of African ancestry.* The study also found that states with the highest levels of African ancestry, such as South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida, “are not those with the highest proportions of African Americans.”
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/white-souther...-study-1765498



That 1% SSA would most likely come from the very early days of colonization, between mixing of non-anglo European indentured servants and slaves as I mentioned in this post.


Not to mention the nature of the French colonies prior to being adsorbed into the United States. They were willing to mix with native Americans. Which is probably where some of the traces of Native American comes from in some DNA results.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ha...0tribe&f=false

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## Lukas

15 Afrikaners found on Gedmatch. Their results in Eurogenes K36 which help differentiate many specific non-Euro admixtures

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## Lukas

SA Coloureds mostly from familly Apolles https://www.google.pl/search?q=apoll...jaJq5h80dnbOM:

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## Lukas

Pygmy in K36 is sign of Khoisan admixture (pure San from HGDP have 70%).

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## Angela

> 15 Afrikaners found on Gedmatch. Their results in Eurogenes K36 which help differentiate many specific non-Euro admixtures


Who gave you permission to post the results of named people on the internet? Unless you obtained their permission, remove the names.

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## elghund

> I think it confirms things we've known: about 3% SSA and 3% South Asian.
> 
> See:
> https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/09/22/the-...of-afrikaners/
> 
> Oh, the irony.
> 
> In American, going by the "one drop" rule, they would all have been relegated to the "back of the bus".


White South Afrikaners are relegated to far worse than the back of the bus these days. There is a genocide occurring there.

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## Angela

> White South Afrikaners are relegated to far worse than the back of the bus these days. There is a genocide occurring there.


And the brutality against black Americans during slavery and later was far worse than going to the back of the bus, as was the treatment of black South Africans under the Afrikaner regime, yes?

My point had to do with the fact that it isn't rare that people who are mixed to some degree are often the most rabid racists. After all, the laws were promulgated at a time when some rumors must still have been current. Another piece of evidence is that instead of using a genetic or genealogical measure, they based legal distinctions solely on appearance until very late in the history of the regime. The psychology is interesting. 

Of course, no matter what treatment the blacks received, it wouldn't justify the murder of white South Africans.

I would also be careful with the use of the word "genocide". It's disrespectful to people like Jews and Armenians who actually did suffer a genocide.

Btw, along these lines there's the case of the black looking daughter of two "white" Afrikaners, who was re-classified and relegated to "Coloured" or black society. The reclassification was based solely on her appearance. I remember reading that there was all sorts of swill peddled about how the mother must have had an affair with a black man. Much later a paternity test was administered, and other dna testing, and it was proved she was the biological daughter of her legal parents. They eventually changed the law to say the biological child of two white parents could not be re-classified, but what difference would it have made. She would still have been an outcast, as the parents were, as if this possibility was catching, like a cold or a virus. Poor people. 

Sandra Laing:
 

https://www.theguardian.com/theguard.../features11.g2

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## elghund

> And the brutality against black Americans during slavery and later was far worse than going to the back of the bus, as was the treatment of black South Africans under the Afrikaner regime, yes?
> 
> *My point had to do with the fact that it isn't rare that people who are mixed to some degree are often the most rabid racists*. After all, the laws were promulgated at a time when some rumors must still have been current. Another piece of evidence is that instead of using a genetic or genealogical measure, they based legal distinctions solely on appearance until very late in the history of the regime. The psychology is interesting. 
> 
> Of course, no matter what treatment the blacks received, it wouldn't justify the murder of white South Africans.
> 
> *I would also be careful with the use of the word "genocide". It's disrespectful to people like Jews and Armenians who actually did suffer a genocide.*
> 
> Btw, along these lines there's the case of the black looking daughter of two "white" Afrikaners, who was re-classified and relegated to "Coloured" or black society. The reclassification was based solely on her appearance. I remember reading that there was all sorts of swill peddled about how the mother must have had an affair with a black man. Much later a paternity test was administered, and other dna testing, and it was proved she was the biological daughter of her legal parents. They eventually changed the law to say the biological child of two white parents could not be re-classified, but what difference would it have made. She would still have been an outcast, as the parents were, as if this possibility was catching, like a cold or a virus. Poor people. 
> ...


I know what the term _genocide_ means and I was careful in my use of it. White South Afrikaners are experiencing a genocide and it is disrespectful to them to deny it. You stated, "*Oh, the irony.*  In America, going by the "one drop" rule, they would *all* have been relegated to the 'back of the bus.'" My response was to that statement, not to the point that you subsequently said you were trying to make, that "people who are mixed to some degree are often the most rabid racist," which is another view I don't share as I think it's an overgeneralization.

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## Angela

> I know what the term _genocide_ means and I was careful in my use of it. *White South Afrikaners are experiencing a genocide and it is disrespectful to them to deny it.*


Nonsense and hyperbole. There is no indication of a genocide. Stop reading neo-nazi twaddle. What may happen in the future is another story.

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## bicicleur

> Nonsense and hyperbole. There is no indication of a genocide. Stop reading neo-nazi twaddle. What may happen in the future is another story.


In South Africa people try to forget the past and move along knowing they need the know-how brought in by the colonisers.
South Africa is plagued by heavy corruption under president Zuma though and ANC is losing all its credit because of this.
I hope there will be no irregularities during next elections.

What happened in Zimbabwe is ethnic cleansing of the white people.
As a consequence Zimbabwe is in big disaster. Some white people were killed, most white people left the country leaving all their properties behind, and some very few wealthy white people are still supporting and profiting of the corrupt regime. Many black tribes which are not linked to president Mugabe are fleeing into South Africa. This country is bankrupt because of greed and racism to the white people.

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## Angela

> In South Africa people try to forget the past and move along knowing they need the know-how brought in by the colonisers.
> South Africa is plagued by heavy corruption under president Zuma though and ANC is losing all its credit because of this.
> I hope there will be no irregularities during next elections.
> 
> What happened in Zimbabwe is ethnic cleansing of the white people.
> As a consequence Zimbabwe is in big disaster. Some white people were killed, most white people left the country leaving all their properties behind, and some very few wealthy white people are still supporting and profiting of the corrupt regime. Many black tribes which are not linked to president Mugabe are fleeing into South Africa. *This country is bankrupt because of greed and racism to the white people.*


*
*
Yes, that's a much clearer description of the situation.

I don't know how much of it is actual "racism" and how much revenge, but it doesn't matter. It's all terrible

Actually, I was surprised that South Africa wasn't engulfed in a blood bath given what went on before. Not that it would have been justified I hasten to add, but people have exterminated other groups of people with far less reason.

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## bicicleur

Apartheid was installed by a mojority of impoverished Afrikaner people.
The Afrikaner developped the land, but many became impoverished under British rule.
The British were not interested in land development, only in gold and diamonds and other ores.

Also bear in mind, South Africa has 17 official languages, English, Afirkaans and 15 tribal black languages.
If you put 2 random black South Africans face to face, they'll communicate in Afrikaans or English because they don't understand each others tribal language.

Most areas are still exclusively white or black, there are not many mixed places.
The Afrikaner people are still white, tall, blond and blue-eyed. They look more European than present day Dutch people.

I have visited South Africa twice.
There are a few danger zones, but there is no hatred. I have never met such nice and genuinly friendly people anywhere in the world.
It's a fantastic country. If you ever have the opportunity to visit it, you should do so.

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## Lukas

> The Afrikaner people are still white, tall, *blond and blue-eyed*. They look more European than present day Dutch people.


So you tell it as a Flemish so I believe you:) 
It's interesting because they have large portion of French ancestry (mostly form south and central France so rather on brunet side). And don't forget those few percents Non-Caucasoid admixture.

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## Lukas

> Who gave you permission to post the results of named people on the internet? Unless you obtained their permission, remove the names.


I removed Gedmathc numbers. But names are helpful to prove they are Afrikaners. And surnames like Kruger, de Klerk or De Wet in South Africa are so popular like Smith or Johnson in USA...

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## bicicleur

> So you tell it as a Flemish so I believe you:) 
> It's interesting because they have large portion of French ancestry (mostly form south and central France so rather on brunet side). And don't forget those few percents Non-Caucasoid admixture.


The French ancestry probably comes from the Hugenotes who brought wine culture to South Africa.
They should be concentrated in the southwestern area.

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## Odysseus

We white South Africans come from different European backgrounds. 

the 1% African DNA could be Spanish ancestry. 

My ancestors came from Denmark & Germany so I doubt I have any African genes in me.

Seeing that all my family members have blue eyes , I'm pretty sure I'm 100% European.

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## Angela

As the previous charts showed, the African is Pygmy related, Southern SSA related, among other things, so it's not from Spain. You can have quite a bit of SSA ancestry and still be blonde and blue-eyed. Phenotype can be misleading. 

Of course, the percentages are averages. You may be someone who has no non-European ancestry, but the only way to know for sure is to test, since it is so widely diffused throughout the white population. It is the same scenario in much of Latin America. White Hispanics have also discovered this trace of non-European ancestry. In their case it comes along with very high levels of Native American and sometimes SSA mtDna. It would be interesting to know how many white South Africans carry this non-European mtDna, and if any non-European y shows up. That would indicate how much was male vs. female mediated.

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## Angela

Razib Khan has two threads up about it. 

https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/09/22/the-...of-afrikaners/

https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/09/23/no-a...lish-ancestry/


The second post has to do with the fact that he believes that the reported "British" ancestry in the results are not accurate. I totally agree. In 23andme and a lot of commercial tests it's very difficult to tell apart the Dutch from the British alleles. Khan does experiments of his own to quantify that. 

I don't understand why he got annoyed with the following post. It just explains why people of mixed Afrikaner/British ancestry usually self-identify as British and so their results wouldn't be skewing the data. Also, I found some of the information interesting.

"I don’t think the question is well framed to begin with. There are of course a huge number of white South Africans who are Afrikaner/English crosses, or Afrikaner/Irish crosses (like myself). But because of the importance of identification and ascription, many such will self-identify as English, even when they have 50% Afrikaans ancestry, and be thought as such. More rarely, they will cluster as Afrikaans: English South Africans have higher income, a few points higher mean IQ and have had generally higher social status for most of the last 200 years. If you grow up there you can recognize this immediately: Van der Byl is an Afrikaans name but many of them are ascriptively (and self-identify as) English. This is more prevalent in the Cape. They grow up speaking English, they do not go to the Afrikaans churches, they do not usually eat pap (though they might eat wors), they do not learn those silly dances, they are politically liberal etc. etc. Conversely you will find more than a few Afrikaners called Roberts or Smith, descended from British soldiers not that long ago.So if you are surveying Afrikaners, the group is already preselected, both by self-identification and ascription, for ancestry. The English admixture mostly skims off in this way. A good example is JM Coetzee, often called an Afrikaner by people who don’t know any better, and he certainly has major Afrikaner ancestry, but he is culturally and socially 100% English (and now an Australian). Or, to take another writer, Herman Charles Bosman, who spoke Afrikaans rather badly and wrote almost entirely in English."

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## MOESAN

I doubt white South-Africans even Afrikaners would pass as more 'nordiclike' than white Dutch people. Concerning French Huguenots they left a very very heavy onprint on Afrikaners surname (Du Randt, Du Plessis, De Villiers, Du Toit, Du Preez, Durpez, Roux, Le Roux, Terblanche, Olivier, Cronje (Crosnier?), Joubert, Naude, Marais, Fourie, maybe Serfontein...). 
Concerning phenotypes, some "white" Afrikaners show some doubious details in their features, evocating some possible SSA input, even if rare. But we know a 3% exotic genes cannot leave a deep print on phenotype, only in some individuals, and these rare occurrences of external "unappropriate" traits are often easily eliminated by sexual or social selection in a few generation. I suppose we could say that in racist societies, phenotypes are always "purer" than total genotypes for this reason. What I think I remarked is they show some traces of selection towards rude, harsh types, more on the physical skills side than on the intellectual skills side.

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## Lukas

> What I think I remarked is they show some traces of selection towards rude, harsh types, more on the physical skills side than on the intellectual skills side.


I agree. Most of the time Boers were predominantly farmers, so such physical types were welcomed.

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## MOESAN

I would have said, concerning Afrikaners, selected towards another kind of intelligence, not the kind which prevails among graduate people of the universities.

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## Angela

I think this may have something to do with the various types of migration to South Africa. The Dutch settled farm people in the area because the goal was to set up a supply station for Dutch shipping.. The English who came later were disproportionately more from the artisan and middle classes. 

See:
http://www.footprinttravelguides.com...-south-africa/

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## Odysseus

Again afrikaner people are from different European backgrounds , here are examples of some well known Afrikaner celebrities:

Nico Panagiotopoulos: 
He is an actor and TV presenter who is of Greek decent. 

Patricia Lewis:
She is a natural blonde singer who is from Lebanese decent. 


Nina Swart:
An actress who is of Jewish decent. 


Lisa Swart:
A TV presenter of Jewish decent. 


Amor Vittone:
A singer who is of Italian decent. 


Nadine:
A singer who is of Italian decent. 


Oscar Pretorius: an Athlete who is of Italian decent. 


Chad Le Clo:
an athlete who is of French decent. 


Pascal Pienaar:
An actress who is of French decent.
 

Sarahann Doherty: an actress who is of Irish decent. 


Then obviously we have the more Dutch/Nordic looking Afrikaners who (In my opinion) make up the majority of Afrikaner people.

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## Angela

Interesting. Just an aside, though, Ms Lewis is obviously not a natural blonde. You should take a closer look at the photo. I'll give her credit for getting her roots done very frequently, though. :)

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## bicicleur

> Interesting. Just an aside, though, Ms Lewis is obviously not a natural blonde. You should take a closer look at the photo. I'll give her credit for getting her roots done very frequently, though. :)


and her hair colour doesn't match her eyes and eyebrows
I don't like it

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## Odysseus

> Interesting. Just an aside, though, Ms Lewis is obviously not a natural blonde. You should take a closer look at the photo. I'll give her credit for getting her roots done very frequently, though. :)


Strange her son looks blond.... Is blond hair rare among Lebanese people?

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## Angela

> Strange her son looks blond.... Is blond hair rare among Lebanese people?



Yes, it's rare, but it's not impossible. I think King Hussein of Jordan had a Palestinian wife who had honey colored hair if I remember correctly. (His last wife was mostly American.) 

Also, there are natural blondes with brown eyes and dark eyebrows. My daughter was pale blonde until she was in her late teens and she has very dark eyes and brows. There are famous women who had that combination as well, like Sandra Dee. Of course, as with almost all blondes it darkens. 



I wasn't going by either of those things but by the visible roots, which are even more visible here. I don't know if the child is full Lebanese, but that's also possible. The mother may have been blonde as a child and it darkened later. As I said, it happens in all ethnic groups to some extent. She just has terrible taste, imo, like Jessica Simpson, as an American example. If your hair has darkened, you get it highlighted if you want to keep it blondish. The darker it's gotten the less pale you can go. You don't get this fake all over platinum look. It's very ugly in addition to being very artificial and cheap looking as far as I'm concerned. 




Forget it: I think Hussein's Palestinian wife may just have lightened her hair a bit.

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## ThirdTerm

In the colonial era, racial segregation in South Africa was largely informal and the system of apartheid was implemented by the right-wing National Party in 1948. The colored community is still as large as the white counterpart, making up 9% of the nation's population. Some of these light-skinned colored South Africans could pass for white in the apartheid era, especially if it meant acquiring more privileges. 3% South Asian admixture is likely to be derived from Indians or Malays as some colored families in the Cape Town region have Malay origins.




> When racist colonial settlers arrived at the southern tip of Africa during the 17th century, their racism did not preclude sexual relations with the locals. Several generations later, the colored community is ostensibly an ethnic group just like the Xhosas or the Zulus or any of the other myriad groupings within South Africa’s borders. It makes up 9 percent of the country’s population of 50.6 million.
> 
> South Africans are adept at broadly classifying one another as black, white, Indian or colored, despite often complicated lineages. Some colored families, especially in the Cape Town region, have Malay origins, courtesy of the historic slave trade that brought Asians to South Africa; others have roots in the local indigenous Khoi community. Our discriminatory skills are so fine-grained that Barack Obama would not pass as colored here; the U.S. president is “biracial.”
> 
> Colored communities lived in their own neighborhoods — most still do — and spoke Afrikaans as their mother-tongue, a language similar to Dutch and dissimilar to indigenous African languages. We were not white, and we were not treated as white. More money was spent on us than on the average black African community but less than on the average white one. Thus the racial hierarchy was legally, politically and economically entrenched.

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## Odysseus

> In the colonial era, racial segregation in South Africa was largely informal and the system of apartheid was implemented by the right-wing National Party in 1948. The colored community is still as large as the white counterpart, making up 9% of the nation's population. Some of these light-skinned colored South Africans could pass for white in the apartheid era, especially if it meant acquiring more privileges. 3% South Asian admixture is likely to be derived from Indians or Malays as some colored families in the Cape Town region have Malay origins.





> Together, the HNP (Nationalist party) and the Afrikaner Party won 79 seats in the House of Assembly against a combined total of 74 won by the UP (united party). By a quirk of the First Past the Post system the NP had won more seats, even though the UP (united party) had received over eleven percent more votes. The Nationalist coalition subsequently formed a new government and ushered in the era of formal, legally binding apartheid.

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## Odysseus

> Yes, it's rare, but it's not impossible. I think King Hussein of Jordan had a Palestinian wife who had honey colored hair if I remember correctly. (His last wife was mostly American.) 
> 
> Also, there are natural blondes with brown eyes and dark eyebrows. My daughter was pale blonde until she was in her late teens and she has very dark eyes and brows. There are famous women who had that combination as well, like Sandra Dee. Of course, as with almost all blondes it darkens. 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't going by either of those things but by the visible roots, which are even more visible here. I don't know if the child is full Lebanese, but that's also possible. The mother may have been blonde as a child and it darkened later. As I said, it happens in all ethnic groups to some extent. She just has terrible taste, imo, like Jessica Simpson, as an American example. If your hair has darkened, you get it highlighted if you want to keep it blondish. The darker it's gotten the less pale you can go. You don't get this fake all over platinum look. It's very ugly in addition to being very artificial and cheap looking as far as I'm concerned. 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting. 

Sent from my WAS-LX1 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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## Angela

It's like the Italian singer Alexia:

The platinum streaks are obviously artificial, and part of her "performance look", yet below is a picture of her with her daughter, and I would assume the father is Italian. The blonde hair is obviously a family trait.


Then there's Gwen Stefani, another natural brown-eyed blonde. In the prom picture she looks a bit like my daughter: same summer tanned look.





The platinum is obviously fake, but again, it's the stylized performance "look". This is why, although you're not invading a celebrity's privacy by using their pictures, it's sometimes difficult to tell much from their pictures. Indeed, women in general change their "looks" so often that it's difficult in general.

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## halfalp

> And the brutality against black Americans during slavery and later was far worse than going to the back of the bus, as was the treatment of black South Africans under the Afrikaner regime, yes?
> 
> My point had to do with the fact that it isn't rare that people who are mixed to some degree are often the most rabid racists. After all, the laws were promulgated at a time when some rumors must still have been current. Another piece of evidence is that instead of using a genetic or genealogical measure, they based legal distinctions solely on appearance until very late in the history of the regime. The psychology is interesting. 
> 
> Of course, no matter what treatment the blacks received, it wouldn't justify the murder of white South Africans.
> 
> I would also be careful with the use of the word "genocide". It's disrespectful to people like Jews and Armenians who actually did suffer a genocide.
> 
> Btw, along these lines there's the case of the black looking daughter of two "white" Afrikaners, who was re-classified and relegated to "Coloured" or black society. The reclassification was based solely on her appearance. I remember reading that there was all sorts of swill peddled about how the mother must have had an affair with a black man. Much later a paternity test was administered, and other dna testing, and it was proved she was the biological daughter of her legal parents. They eventually changed the law to say the biological child of two white parents could not be re-classified, but what difference would it have made. She would still have been an outcast, as the parents were, as if this possibility was catching, like a cold or a virus. Poor people. 
> ...


That Sandra Laing story... I mean even if David Reich Lab would make a genetic test, who they think they gonna manipulate a part some sensationnal christians. Even if ssa ancestry would be found in both those guys, physically, there is nothing of both, she just cheat with a black guy, never assumed it and it becomed a sensationnal story for the sake of the destruction of the Apartheid. Some people thinks that lies, can be an end in itself if it can help. I'm absolutely not in that corner, a lie is a lie, and that story... whatever. It not happend in South Africa for the sake of hasard. You would never seen the same in a Islandic or Japanese family.

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## Odysseus

> It's like the Italian singer Alexia:
> 
> The platinum streaks are obviously artificial, and part of her "performance look", yet below is a picture of her with her daughter, and I would assume the father is Italian. The blonde hair is obviously a family trait.
> 
> 
> Then there's Gwen Stefani, another natural brown-eyed blonde. In the prom picture she looks a bit like my daughter: same summer tanned look.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In South-Africa a lot of Afrikaner girls prefer dying their hair blonde for some reason. It's like some crazy trend I guess. 

Sent from my WAS-LX1 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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## Angela

> That Sandra Laing story... I mean even if David Reich Lab would make a genetic test, who they think they gonna manipulate a part some sensationnal christians. Even if ssa ancestry would be found in both those guys, physically, there is nothing of both, she just cheat with a black guy, never assumed it and it becomed a sensationnal story for the sake of the destruction of the Apartheid. Some people thinks that lies, can be an end in itself if it can help. I'm absolutely not in that corner, a lie is a lie, and that story... whatever. It not happend in South Africa for the sake of hasard. You would never seen the same in a Islandic or Japanese family.


It would be nice if every once in a while people did some research before they opined. Dna tests were done, the standard kind that can be done through any hospital, and is done every day in paternity and maternity cases. It was finally determined scientifically: that girl is without any doubt the biological child of both the man and the woman. Is it rare for this to happen? Yes it is. Did it happen? Yes, it did.

Now we know more. Is the average "White Africaner" 6% non-white? Yes, they are, whether you like it or not.

End of story.

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## halfalp

> It would be nice if every once in a while people did some research before they opined. Dna tests were done, the standard kind that can be done through any hospital, and is done every day in paternity and maternity cases. It was finally determined scientifically: that girl is without any doubt the biological child of both the man and the woman. Is it rare for this to happen? Yes it is. Did it happen? Yes, it did.
> 
> Now we know more. Is the average "White Africaner" 6% non-white? Yes, they are, whether you like it or not.
> 
> End of story.


It is not about being nice, whatever the wife cheat, being raped, or the couple adopt that child. It is just not there child. Why would that pseudo-beautiful story being true, juste because of Apartheid... Even with extrapolation, that both the husband or the wife have SSA ancestry, both 3 just dont feet together. This story is juste a lie, who indirectly make the occidental public opinion way more focus on apartheid. This is sad, that this girl has being seperated from her family, for racial reasons. But lie about her origin, dont gonna make the story more easily swallow, actually those type of lies, are typically the reasons of the augmentation of xenophobia in the occidental world. People are not stupid, and every lies gonna jump out one day, the difference is, people gonna be more and more cynical about violence in the world more you lied to them.

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## Angela

> It is not about being nice, whatever the wife cheat, being raped, or the couple adopt that child. It is just not there child. Why would that pseudo-beautiful story being true, juste because of Apartheid... Even with extrapolation, that both the husband or the wife have SSA ancestry, both 3 just dont feet together. This story is juste a lie, who indirectly make the occidental public opinion way more focus on apartheid. This is sad, that this girl has being seperated from her family, for racial reasons. But lie about her origin, dont gonna make the story more easily swallow, actually those type of lies, are typically the reasons of the augmentation of xenophobia in the occidental world. People are not stupid, and every lies gonna jump out one day, the difference is, people gonna be more and more cynical about violence in the world more you lied to them.


OK, halfalp, everybody lied: the parents who took the tests, the South African court which ordered the tests, the hospitals which administered the tests, the court which made the finding, the papers that reported the results of the tests. Everybody.

Only you know the truth. Got it.

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## davef

> OK, halfalp, everybody lied: the parents who took the tests, the South African court which ordered the tests, the hospitals which administered the tests, the court which made the finding, the papers that reported the results of the tests. Everybody.
> 
> Only you know the truth. Got it.


Why is everyone having panic attacks over the small percentage of non white, especially non Africaners?

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## Angela

Like the Africaners themselves, many people have defined "white" ancestry by appearance. Does no one remember the Nazis with their elaborate physical tests for "race"? If someone is fair-skinned, and especially if someone is fair-skinned, blonde and blue-eyed, they must by definition be totally "white". Well, it's not true. The Afrikaners "look" white, but it is incontrovertible that, on average, they are about 3% southeast Asian, and 3% SSA. Now, some may be less and some more. That just seems like a blasphemy to some people, but it's true nonetheless, and it is possible because the snps controlling pigmentation and even facial features are such a small part of the whole. 

The story of that young girl and the suffering both she and her parents endured did indeed bring apartheid and its stupidity into disrepute. They were actually determining "race" by skin pigmentation charts and calipers for skull measurements! Tell me that didn't have something to do with the fact that so many genealogical records existed which showed distant ancestors who were clearly listed on records as "colored"! The problem is that if two people who are each perhaps 10% or even more SSA marry and have a child, in rare instances the pigmentation and hair and nose shape genes can resurface.

As I said, it's rare, although it has happened in other places. Why would a South African court finally admit evidence of the fact she was the biological child of those two people if it weren't true? Granted, they went years refusing to admit the evidence, because if evidence other than physical appearance was admitted the laws regarding "classification" would have to change. That, at least, is the way I understand that the system worked.

I don't know, maybe some people would also prefer that apartheid never fell. Nothing surprises me anymore.

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## halfalp

Your taking has counter argument the " nazi " argument, or the " bad argument " everything you think bad, is by essence false... Sandra Laing is 60's story, not a paper from yesterday... Nobody here are nazi, or aryan or whatever, that's your phantasme to being the she-maid who gonna destroys all the nazis or whatever. How somebody like you, with so much knowledge, can come here so naively, to say, bla bla genetic test, south african court. Like juste for that case, now we gonna say, yes, two white peoples can have a black child... What of a disinformation and use, of arguments. That's not the first time i'm disappointing of the use of some taboo words, like nazis, racists, nordicists here, and with a big freedom. Dont pretend to come lightening people knowledge if you are stuck in the 50's with your antifascists agenda...

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## halfalp

And by the way, Sandra Laing was not a single child, but had siblings, who are all white and very like theyre father... Ok whatever

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## firetown

> Yes, it's rare, but it's not impossible. I think King Hussein of Jordan had a Palestinian wife who had honey colored hair if I remember correctly. (His last wife was mostly American.)


Would you say that this might come from Sumerian ancestry? I am curious if there is anything credible on the Sumerian's phenotypes. Red hair seems to pop up in those regions also here and there so I am wondering where these recessive genes might originate.

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## Angela

> And by the way, Sandra Laing was not a single child, but had siblings, who are all white and very like theyre father... Ok whatever


Again, please do your research before opining.

I'm going to give it one more try and then I'm out. Sandra Laing was first classified as black by the South African authorities based on skin pigmentation charts and skull and facial measurements despite being legally the child of "white" parents. Then, after years,* and at the insistence of her father*, who took it all the way to the South African Supreme Court, the *South African courts looked at dna evidence* that showed she was the biological child of her "white" classified parents, and reversed the standards previously used and *legally classified her as white*. Of course, she was still ostracized by "white" looking Afrikaners. When she ran away with a black South African man they had to live in the tribal areas. When she went to apply for an identity document as "colored", she was refused on the grounds that she was now "white". She and her black partner were jailed for miscegenation. 

Here is a documentary done about her. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYZyvxpsCjQ

Of the three children of this family, one looked mulatto (Sandra), one looked white (her older brother), and one, her younger brother, looked "white enough" (despite his African hair, and obviously "different" complexion, he was lighter than Sandra), and so his original status as the "white" child of "white" parents was never changed. As an added irony, the educator who expelled Sandra from the white school for being black looks admixed himself to me.



Attachment 9403

I don't have anything more to say to someone who can't see the utter insanity of this and insists it's some sort of conspiracy when the evidence comes from the South African courts themselves. If you have a problem with the determination of the South African courts of the time (this actually played out in the 70s), you should complain to them, not me.

You clearly lack an understanding of how pigmentation and facial and hair features can vary in families with a mix of racial ancestry. This is a Lumbee family, a tri-racial group from the Carolinas. One or perhaps two of those children could definitely pass. The others could not. This was common in admixed people. Of Thomas Jefferson's children with his slave Sally Hemings, most could and did pass. Two could not, they looked too black, and so they remained part of the African American community.



Melungeon family:

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## halfalp

" You clearly lack an understanding of how pigmentation and facial and hair features can vary in families with a mix of racial ancestry. " Ok well, that's change everything because last time i checked, both parents clearly stipulate they dont had any Black ancestors...

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## davef

Cliffnotes version:

The law says: if you fit the profile of a white person based on skin tone and cranial measures, or if you are born to white parents, you are white 

Court says: Oh! How could this black girl POSSIBLY be the biological child of these white parents? 

Years later...

Court says: oh, based on these DNA results she is the offspring of these two white individual and is thus legally white.

She runs off with her South African black friend to join a tribe where she attempts to change her status from white to black but is denied and is sent to prison with her friend joining her.

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## Angela

> Would you say that this might come from Sumerian ancestry? I am curious if there is anything credible on the Sumerian's phenotypes. Red hair seems to pop up in those regions also here and there so I am wondering where these recessive genes might originate.


Do you mean why light hair might sometimes pop up in Palestinians or other Levantine populations? 

We have genetic results from the Anatolian Neolithic samples and even the occasional Levant Neolithic sample where some of the people seemed to have the derived snps not only for both the major skin depigmentation snps, but also for blue eyes and light hair. So, those snps have been in the Near East for a long time, even if in some areas persistent diffusion from the south and east has "swamped" them. Indeed, as an example, by the Bronze Age, the Levant was pretty dark.

Then, there is an opposite gene flow from Indo-Iranian groups perhaps, maybe "Sea Peoples" if they really came from the Aegean or the Balkans, maybe even a Crusader or too.

I don't see how anyone could figure out the exact source. 

Anyway, while some really fair-skinned or even naturally fair-haired Palestinians might exist, I've personally never seen any. The Druze are a bit lighter, and some Alawites also, including Assad, but these are isolated populations who didn't absorb slaves in the post Islamic era, or even just tribal people from the area of Saudi Arabia, and have been subject to drift. Still, even among them it's a rarity.
 


There are some naturally fair Turks, at least in western Turkey, but even there natural blondes are not common.

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## Odysseus

> Would you say that this might come from Sumerian ancestry? I am curious if there is anything credible on the Sumerian's phenotypes. Red hair seems to pop up in those regions also here and there so I am wondering where these recessive genes might originate.


Short answer, no.

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## Govan

> I doubt white South-Africans even Afrikaners would pass as more 'nordiclike' than white Dutch people. Concerning French Huguenots they left a very very heavy onprint on Afrikaners surname (Du Randt, Du Plessis, De Villiers, Du Toit, Du Preez, Durpez, Roux, Le Roux, Terblanche, Olivier, Cronje (Crosnier?), Joubert, Naude, Marais, Fourie, maybe Serfontein...). 
> Concerning phenotypes, some "white" Afrikaners show some doubious details in their features, evocating some possible SSA input, even if rare. But we know a 3% exotic genes cannot leave a deep print on phenotype, only in some individuals, and these rare occurrences of external "unappropriate" traits are often easily eliminated by sexual or social selection in a few generation. I suppose we could say that in racist societies, phenotypes are always "purer" than total genotypes for this reason. What I think I remarked is they show some traces of selection towards rude, harsh types, more on the physical skills side than on the intellectual skills side.


 Lol . Obviously Afrikaaners are going to be more musclar proportionally than the lanky Dutch when genealogically they are goodly 35-40% German (mostly the Saxon North).
Anyway a good friend is full Boer and get English at top 1 and 2 at Gedmatch closest population 
Dutch is at4 or 5 top, lol funny if you know the history between Boers and the English.

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## MOESAN

@Govan
Very possible: I saw some british names (Saxons, Celtic, Normans) among the Afrikaners society, spite their first names were rather "boer-like" (Germanic or latinized often germanic christian names); so nothing impossible; and some auDNA overlaps exist between some British people and N-W Germanic Europe - it remains that the bulk of the Boers surnames were Dutch, French and German.

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## Dr Daniel Junglehart

Yea they love there people and homelands and preferred people that look a certain way that’s all probably prostitution baby’s got in the gene pool or rape of the superior white jk they lived in Africa just people that live near the ports got some different genes then from Europe for sure.

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## Angela

> Yea they love there people and homelands and preferred people that look a certain way that’s all probably prostitution baby’s got in the gene pool or rape of the superior white jk they lived in Africa just people that live near the ports got some different genes then from Europe for sure.


They were imperialist racists, as was the case in all the European colonies. In this case, their 6% "other" comes from the fact that in the beginning there were no "white" women. 

As long as it didn't "show" any more, they preferred to ignore it, but it's there in the records for anyone who does the searches, apparently.

The "mixed" ancestry is not in the English descent South Africans, btw, most of whom live in the Capetown area. It's in the Afrikaners who trekked to the interior.

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## Terrance Stuart

As an American I can say that black slaves in North America grew their population whereas those located in South America and the Middle East suffered tremendous privation by comparison. Black slaves were 10 times more valuable then Irish slaves in North America. Reason was they were able to resist malaria better then whites. In Jamaica it is suggested that slaveholders used Irish female slaves to interbreed with blacks in order to get a higher price which was late outlawed not due to racism but because of genetic failure to pass on resistance to Malaria.

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## DarknessC

Not surprised

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