# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Genetic of Italy (also taken from Wikipedia)

## julia90

First my thoughts and personal opinion on our genetic:

Italy is a southern european country; therefore as one of those it belongs greatly to the mediterranean world; it's like the opposite of sweden but in the same way it's a refuge for mediterranean phenotypes, and many mediterranean types are found.

gracile med mostly, some tall ones, and many with a south eastern vibe.

italy is in the centre of mediterranean europe, therefore it received inputs from many part of southern europe, a great part of it belongs to the east med basin type, expecially in southern italy where in the past were greek colonies, the etruscans in tuscany that came from anatolia and arrived there from the crescent valley (tigri/eufate) i think.
the arab influence is scarce and restricted to some place of sicily.

Recent genetic studies confirm all that i've said: Italy is collocated in southern europe and clusters between the iberians (spain/portugal) , and in some studies also with southern France and greece; northern italy is towards the iberian cluster and southern italy towards the greek one.

maps:

people near italy: Spain/Portugal, France, Switzerland, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia









taken from Wikipedia:

During prehistory, Italy was populated by different but very similar Indo-European groups, later collectively listed amongst the Ancient peoples of Italy, of whom the Italic one was predominant.
Not all of these various peoples were linguistically or ethnically closely related. Some of them spoke Italic languages, others spoke Greek because of the arrival of Hellenic colonists, while others belonged to another Indo-European branch (Ligurian, Venetic, Lepontic, Messapian) or were non-Indo-European (Etruscan, Raetic).
The identity of a people, as well as being characterized by notions of culture is also characterized by processes of genetic evolution. Following scientific research carried out by dutch genetists, Italy has proven to be one of the last two remaining genetic islands across Europe (along with Finland), this due to the presence of the chain Alpine mountain that, over the centuries, has prevented large migration flows aimed at colonizing the Italian lands.


• The modern man appeared during the Upper Palaeolithic. Specimens of Aurignacian age were discovered in the cave of Fumane and dated back about 34,000 years ago. During the Magdalenian period the first men from the Pyrenees populated Sardinia [1].
• During the Neolithic farming stable is introduced by people from the east and the first villages are built, the weapons become more sophisticated and the first objects in clay produced.
• In the late Neolithic era the use of copper spreads and villages are built over piles near the lakes. In Sardinia, Sicily and part of “Continental Italy” the Beaker culture, which probably represents the western branch of the Corded Ware culture, also spreads from North-West Europe,[2].
• During the Late Bronze Age in Italy appears the Urnfield or Villanovan culture characterized by the typical rite of incineration of the bodies originating from Central Europe, the use of iron spreads [3]. In Sardinia the Nuragic civilization flourishes.
• From the 8th century BC Greek colonists settle on the southern coast and in Sicily and found cities, initiating what was later called Magna Graecia. In the 5th century Celtic tribes from continental Europe settled in Northern Italy. The Etruscan civilization developed on the coast of Tuscany and Latium.
• With the Fall of the Roman Empire different populations of German origin intruded into Italy, the most significant was that of the Lombards, who will try to unify politically the “Boot of Italy”.


During the Late Republic and throughout the Imperial period in Italy there was a process of genetic homogenization among the Italian peoples (those other peoples whom inhabited the Italian Peninsula) and the Romans. With the founding of new towns and the colonization of lands in Cisalpine Gaul and southern Italy, there was a significant migration on both the two poles of the Peninsula. The Romans encouraged the migration, as sought to destabilize local governments through forced migration. The Romans, realizing that Rome, meaning the city, could never alone monitor dozens of different peoples, with some initial resistance (which then caused the Social War), decided to extend Roman citizenship to all Italian peoples (with some exceptions) was the first step towards Rome understood not as only a city that dominated the world, but as Italy, which extends its domains throughout Europe. Following the Social War the remaining native population (Celts, Venetics, Oscans, Umbrians, Sicilians, the Greeks, Etruscans, etc. ..), obtained citizenship and mingled with the Roman settlers. Romanization in central Italy had been successful, so much so that many politicians and Roman writers came from that moment from Marche, Abruzzo and Umbria. Greek colonists in southern Italy, which coexisted with Italic peoples, were also immediately Romanized and colonized. In addition Northern Italy was Romanized.[4][5]. The phenomenon of Roman colonization in Italy was held for nearly six centuries and blocks of 6,000 households (30,0000 individuals on assumes) were moved from South to North and vice versa, descendants of Roman settlers living in the north (some times with good amount of gallic genes and Etruscan) were moved to South so flows from North to South lasted for centuries.

Although Sardinians also do not constitute a homogeneous population, Sardinia has unique genetic composition, when compared to other Italian, European and Mediterranean populations.[22] Migration from the Iberian peninsula, rather than southern France or Liguria, may have resulted in a common Y-chromosome haplogroup I being present.

----------


## Vallicanus

Italians aren't just Meds tall and short but also Alpinid especially in the North, with a few Nordids and partial Nordids.

----------


## Joro

And Dinarids.

----------


## julia90

about the dinarics you are right, they appearence (that of classical dinarics) is similar to mediterraneans or southern european phenotypes, expecially the dinarid forms toghether with mediterranean the eastern med type.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

Genetically, Southern Italians are substantially more Near-Eastern compared to Northern Italians. N. Italians cluster with iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese). Spaniards and Portuguese also cluster with the French. Southern Italians are close to Greeks, although Northern Greeks cluster more with Balkan population groups.

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?

[_wew, something is getting hot here!_]

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?
> 
> [_wew, something is getting hot here!_]


They are phenotypic descriptions from old physical anthropology texts. These terms are only moderately useful.

----------


## Wilhelm

> Mediterraneans? Nordids? Alpinids? Dinarids? Would someone please define what you are talking about?
> 
> [_wew, something is getting hot here!_]


It's pseudo-science. People keep saying that north-italy has "nordids" yet in all the autosomal studies the Portuguese and Spaniards always show more nothern european component than North-Italians. This is the clustering situation in Europe :http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

----------


## julia90

they are old terms, i too think it's better to speak about genetic clusters, that are scientific.

----------


## julia90

in northern italy you see people of "nordic" appearence mostly along the alpine chain.

Expecially we have two clear nordic place in italy: South Tyrol (which should be with Austria) and the Seven Towns of Asiago in Veneto (where people speak italian and identify themselves with being ethnic italians)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiago
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altopiano_dei_Sette_Comuni

----------


## Sybilla

Oh look, a troll! Let's speak a bit of Italian, ok? Italians all graciles?  :Confused:

----------


## spongetaro

> in northern italy you see people of "nordic" appearence mostly along the alpine chain.


Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance

----------


## Marianne

> ...All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance


Well in order to have fair eyes you need to get the gene from both parents since fair eyes are caused by recessive genes.

If the Italian parent doesn't have the gene for lets say blue eyes then even if the French parent has very light eyes the kids will not have blue eyes. So if the kids get to have fair eyes it means both parents carry the gene. This means that the Italian parent also carry the gene for fair eyes if your mixed friends have light eyes.

Well that was a bit simplified but what I mean is that for recessive genes both sides of the family must have the gene in order for it to appear in the kids' phenotype.

This is a nice tool that predicts eye color (of course the prediction cant be completely accurate cause as they say in the site the mechanism of eye color inheritance is not 100% known) http://museum.thetech.org/ugenetics/...alculator.html but if you experiment a bit you will see the chances are pretty low to get blue eyed kids with only one family having the gene. So both sides must have it

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance


I guess you only know a handful of Italians.

Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> It's pseudo-science. People keep saying that north-italy has "nordids" yet in all the autosomal studies the Portuguese and Spaniards always show more nothern european component than North-Italians. This is the clustering situation in Europe :http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg



The only region in Italy where you encounter more "Nordid" types is in the Alpine fringe. Many "Nordid" Italians are actually more Alpinid.

----------


## Wilhelm

> 


By the way, the pink circles next to France are also spanish..See ES2

----------


## Drac

> Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance


Livi made probably the largest hair and eye pigmentation survey of Italy and only about 31% of them were blue/grey eyed. Italians are not majority blue/grey-eyed.

----------


## Sybilla

> Almost all people of Italian background I know have fair eyes (blue but mostly grey). All of them are of course mixed French so they can have inherited fair eyes from their French side but I never see the same with people of Spanish background for instance


Many Italians have recessive light eyes. I have black eyes for exemple (a very dark brown), but 3/4 of my grandparents had blue or emeraud green eyes so surely I have recessive light eyes.
I have also noticed that when an Italian mixes with a Northern or central European, their sons look more northern than Italian. They are usually light haired and light eyed.




> I guess you only know a handful of Italians.
> 
> Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.





> The only region in Italy where you encounter more "Nordid" types is in the Alpine fringe. Nordid Italians are actually more Alpinid.


How ignorant you are about Italians? Why do you still continue to speak about things that you dunno? You surealy are a complexed Portuguese becouse everyone knows that Greeks and Portugueses are the darkest peoples in Europe and every graphic confirms that (with all the respect for these two peoples that I like, but I don't like when they start to troll about Italy).
The alpinid element exists also in central and South Italy and *nordid Italians belong to the Alpinid-subnordid or subnordid typology,* see it at anthropeurope. A mix of baltic, neodanubian and alpinid elements. That's also why I say that Nordid Italians look more germanic than slavic or celtic (like Nordid Spaniards).
Some exemples of Nordid Italians:





If I had to put these 3 on a map, I would choose East Germany/Austria and Denmark for the first one.




> By the way, the pink circles next to France are also spanish..See ES2


I don't think these schemes are reliable. According to this:



French are closer to Italians than to Portugueses, although Italians are closer to Swisses than to French.




> Livi made probably the largest hair and eye pigmentation survey of Italy and only about 31% of them were blue/grey eyed. Italians are not majority blue/grey-eyed.


On the avarage 31% is good, but light eyes are not distributed in the same proportion in the whole peninsula.

This scheme is about the number of people with brown hair in Italy From dark brown to light brown/dark blonde) .
It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair and that Northern Italy has almost the same distribution of light hair than central Italy. To change is the South, where black hair are more on the avarage, and Sardinia, where most people don't have brown hair. These scheme anyway lacks to specify what colour have the other people who don't have brown hair: blonde? Red? Black? It says anyway that most Italians (national avarage 60,1) have brown hair.



The percentage of light eyes in Italy par region is this:

Veneto/Friuli *41,4%*
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta *40%*
Lombardia* 37,2%*
Liguria *29,6%*
Emilia-Romagna *31,2%*
Umbria *32,8%*
Toscana *31,5%*
Marche *31,3%*
Lazio *26,2%*
Abruzzo/Molise *28,5%*
Campania *25,6%*
Puglia *26,4%*
Basilicata *23,1%*
Calabria *19,6%*
Sicilia *23,7%*
Sardegna *13,9%*

I live in a region where more than a person on 4 has light eyes but many more have recessive light eyes.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Many Italians have recessive light eyes. I have black eyes for exemple (a very dark brown), but 3/4 of my grandparents had blue or emeraud green eyes so surely I have recessive light eyes.
> I have also noticed that when an Italian mixes with a Northern or central European, their sons look more northern than Italian. They are usually light haired and light eyed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How ignorant you are about Italians? Why do you still continue to speak about things that you dunno? You surealy are a complexed Portuguese becouse everyone knows that Greeks and Portugueses are the darkest peoples in Europe and every graphic confirms that (with all the respect for these two peoples that I like, but I don't like when they start to troll about Italy).
> The alpinid element exists also in central and South Italy and *nordid Italians belong to the Alpinid-subnordid or subnordid typology,* see it at anthropeurope. A mix of baltic, neodanubian and alpinid elements. That's also why I say that Nordid Italians look more germanic than slavic or celtic (like Nordid Spaniards).
> ...



Who is trolling about Italians? I'm certainly not complexed. Maybe you are the one who is complexed. All I'm doing is pointing out phenotypic exaggerations about various ethnic groups, including Italians. Autosomal genetic studies show clearly how Iberians, Italians and others cluster. You are hardly proving these studies wrong with your distorted, misleading posts. Grow up.

----------


## Wilhelm

Who cares about blue eyes and nordids ?? Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Italians genetics ?

----------


## Wilhelm

Polako and Dienekes plots :

----------


## Sybilla

> Who cares about blue eyes and nordids ?? Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Italians genetics ?


Yes, and? Italians, Portugueses, Spaniards and French cluster together, indeed they are all South-West Europeans so I am not surprised by this result.

----------


## spongetaro

> Who is trolling about Italians? I'm certainly not complexed. .


)
Well, it's a topic about Italian genetic soo let's talk about Italian people. 
I can tell you that among the numerous people of Italian background (there are plenty in France) I know, many have grey-blue eyes. 

Also, I have lived many Years In Alsace and Doubs region. I know quite well the North Eastern France phenotypes (also including Lorraine, Burgundy...) and many Northern Italian people match those phenotypes. I suppose R1b U152 has something to do with it. It is recorded by Latin author that Northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul) suffered massive invasion from Northern Transalpine Gaul so it's not surprising at all to find some similarities between Alsatian and Northern Italian.

----------


## Marianne

> 


Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic!  :Laughing:  Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).




> It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair


I don't think any European has real black hair. Very dark brown yes but not black. The only true black haired Greeks I've seen are girls who listen to gothic rock, but the color is fake of course. I didn't see any black haired Italian when I visited Italy either...

Off topic: I noticed in Wilhelm's links that Greeks do not cluster with Turks so this should make people who still support the stupid idea that Greeks and Turks mixed a lot during the Ottoman empire rethink about it...

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

> Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic!  Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think any European has real black hair. Very dark brown yes but not black. The only true black haired Greeks I've seen are girls who listen to gothic rock, but the color is fake of course. I didn't see any black haired Italian when I visited Italy either...
> 
> Of topic: I noticed in Wilhelm's links that Greeks do not cluster with Turks so this should make people who still support the stupid idea that Greeks and Turks mixed a lot during the Ottoman empire rethink about it...


She looks like you??
Uhm... I know a few good cafés around here... uhm, I mean just if you should ever come around in this area... we can like exchange phone numbers if you want to...  :Ashamed:

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> )
> Well, it's a topic about Italian genetic soo let's talk about Italian people. 
> I can tell you that among the numerous people of Italian background (there are plenty in France) I know, many have grey-blue eyes. 
> 
> Also, I have lived many Years In Alsace and Doubs region. I know quite well the North Eastern France phenotypes (also including Lorraine, Burgundy...) and many Northern Italian people match those phenotypes. I suppose R1b U152 has something to do with it. It is recorded by Latin author that Northern Italy (Cisalpine Gaul) suffered massive invasion from Northern Transalpine Gaul so it's not surprising at all to find some similarities between Alsatian and Northern Italian.


Nobody said that some Italians don't have blue or grey eyes. However, they are hardly a majority, even in the north. What's the bid deal about light eyes anyway? I have blue eyes and auburn hair and I don't think that makes me special.

----------


## Wilhelm

> It says that most Italians have not black hair, as people normally think, but brown hair


Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.


It's actually rare for any FULL European to have black hair. Espresso brown is usually the darkest color found in much of Europe. You may find a small percentage with true black hair in the Eastern Mediterranean, but that's about it.

----------


## Marianne

I agree. As I said in my post above I haven't seen any people with true black here in Greece or Italy, except for immigrants from Middle East. But even they are not maily black haired. Many are actually dark brown

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> I agree. As I said in my post above I haven't seen any people with true black here in Greece or Italy, except for immigrants from Middle East. But even they are not maily black haired. Many are actually dark brown


Some of the comments that people post about phenotypes on these threads are absurd. It's like they are trying to create an alternative reality.  :Laughing:

----------


## Marianne

> Some the comments that people post about phenotypes on these threads are absurd. It's like they are trying to create an alternative reality.


Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.

Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation). The only truth is that we are all facing a crisis  :Grin: 

People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.

Italians have various Y-DNA haplogroups, higher variety than Northern Europeans, but still they look completely European to me and their autosomal DNA proves that they are. Same goes for all us southern countries in Europe.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.
> 
> Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation )
> 
> People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.


Well said, sister. :Good Job:

----------


## Sybilla

> Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic!  Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).


She's an Italian dancer born close to Rome. In reality her eyes are blue. Well, if you look like her you are very beautiful. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trpGHBvCPPE




> Stereotypes have always existed. Everyone thinks that Northern Europeans, like Swedes, are almost totaly blond, but as adults they are about 50%.
> 
> Spanish and Portuguese are always told that they look like Latin Americans and that they have African dna, Greeks are supposed to be dark mixed with Turks, Italians are told they have high African admixture etc etc. But the reality is far from all that. In Greece we have a saying: when you hear the tree has many cherries take a small basket with you... (loose translation). The only truth is that we are all facing a crisis 
> 
> People tend to exaggerate when it comes to stereotypes. Yes Southern Europeans are of course more tanned than Northerns but it doesn't go more than that. Plus, I can hardly tell apart Greeks from Spanish or Italians. When I visited Italy it felt like home, (familiar faces everywhere!) and I always talk Greek to people at summer who turn out to be Spanish tourists.
> 
> Italians have various Y-DNA haplogroups, higher variety than Northern Europeans, but still they look completely European to me and their autosomal DNA proves that they are. Same goes for all us southern countries in Europe.


Indeed, I agree. I am trying to fight stereotypes.

----------


## julia90

I will post images of famous people from Italy (so i don't break privacy like people do in other sites.. privacy is important)

From italian Big brother:

----------


## julia90



----------


## Wilhelm

What have all these pictures anything to do with genetics ??

----------


## St Delcambre

Can someone please explain to me how to read the charts posted in this thread? What does each axis represent?

----------


## binx

> Spain has ~ 35% light eyes, not that much less than France.


Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.

----------


## Sybilla

> Actually no european country has majority black, but brown or dark-brown.


I agree.




> Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.


From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:

1)French
2)Southern French/Northern Italians
3)Spaniards/Central Italians
4)Portugueses/Greeks
5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)

The most diffuse racial types in each regions are:

ITALY:
1)dinaricized mediterraneans (not graciles!!!)
2)alpinid mediterraneans and alpinids
3)subnordics and alpino-subnordics
4)atlanto-mediterraneans
5)graciles

HIBERIA:
1)atlanto-mediterraneans
2)baskids or dinaricized mediterraneans

SOURCE: ANTHROPEUROPE

----------


## Drac

> Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.


Since you seem to be French, I suppose you mean meet in person, because I am almost sure you must have seen light-eyed Spaniards. These two famous Frenchmen are of Spanish descent:

Luis Fernandez

http://tvmag.tvimg.partner-tvmag.net...2212040902.JPG

Michel Hidalgo

http://www.lequipe.fr/Medias/Footbal...demord-pas.jpg

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:
> 
> 1)French
> 2)Southern French/Northern Italians
> 3)Spaniards/Central Italians
> ...


I know the person who runs that site. There is little that is scientific about it.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.


Stop exaggerating already.

----------


## Drac

> From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:
> 
> 1)French
> 2)Southern French/Northern Italians
> 3)Spaniards/Central Italians
> 4)Portugueses/Greeks
> 5)Southern Italians (Calabrians, Sicilians, Sardinians)


Do you mean all pigmentation or just eye pigmentation? If eye pigmentation only, NE Spain is lighter eyed than Central Italy and similar to Veneto, Piedmont and Lombardia.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:
> 
> 1)French
> 2)Southern French/Northern Italians
> 3)Spaniards/Central Italians
> ...


Perhaps you need to read the Jablonski et al. skin tone study on Europeans. The research team conducted measurements in Leon (N. Spain) and found that the average skin shade there is lighter than natives of Wales, the London area and parts of Belgium. Now, does it not stand to reason that the skin tones for regions in the general vicinity of Leon (Galicia, Asturias, Zamora, Cantabria in Spain and Minho, Douro, Tras os Montes and Beira Alta in Portugal) would be pretty much the same.

Every country should be divided regionally rather than treated holistically. This holds for skin tone as well as hair and eye pigmentation.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:
> 
> 1)French
> 2)Southern French/Northern Italians
> 3)Spaniards/Central Italians
> ...


Iberia has as many Atlantids (Paleo-Atlantids, Nordid-Atlantids and variations thereof) as Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

----------


## Wilhelm

> Really? Never met spanish with light (?) eyes.


Light eyes in Spain are common. Here you have some examples, it's not hard to find :

----------


## julia90

> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I know the sequence, from the lightest to the darkest, in S.Europe is this:
> 
> 1)French
> 2)Southern French/Northern Italians
> 3)Spaniards/Central Italians
> ...


among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes

have a look (at least i think triveneto has the right percentage)


in Triveneto you see frequently more centro european look like this:


In particular i think Friuli-Venezia-Giulia is heavily celticized (Carni); it's the most centro-european region of italy; this is based on when i went there and i saw people very different from those i usually see at least here in tuscany.

----------


## julia90

some maps

here you can have fun to see in wich genetic part (genetic group) of italy you lives in:


darker, ancient ligures genes:


darker, etruscans? genes:


darker green, greek genes:







interesting map

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes
> 
> have a look (at least i think triveneto has the right percentage)
> 
> 
> in Triveneto you see frequently more centro european look like this:
> 
> 
> In particular i think Friuli-Venezia-Giulia is heavily celticized (Carni); it's the most centro-european region of italy; this is based on when i went there and i saw people very different from those i usually see at least here in tuscany.


The map (bad, just like 95% of the others) is about ALL light eyes, not just blue; that means blue, green, grey and amber. Dark eyes are brown, hazel and "black". Black eyes are really saturated brown and very uncommon in Europe. BTW, green is apparently the rarest light eye color.

----------


## Drac

> among northern italians the place with most blue eyes, apart from south tyrol is Triveneto (mediterranean phenotype only among the coasts, the rest is central european look or even a NW look), i think triveneto equals NE Spain for the blue eyes


According to actual eye pigmentation surveys (the one by Livi for Italy and the one by Hoyos Sainz for Spain), Veneto, the most light-eyed area in Italy (41.4%), is actually a bit more light eyed than the Basque region and Navarre, the most light-eyed areas of Spain (39.2%)

----------


## Sybilla

> Do you mean all pigmentation or just eye pigmentation? If eye pigmentation only, NE Spain is lighter eyed than Central Italy and similar to Veneto, Piedmont and Lombardia.


Light eyes. Spain, in this research, was counted as a whole, not divided in sub-regions like Italy. 




> Iberia has as many Atlantids (Paleo-Atlantids, Nordid-Atlantids and variations thereof) as Atlanto-Mediterraneans.


Yes, Spain has 50% of people as light as Irish. Sure!  :Good Job: 




> Light eyes in Spain are common. Here you have some examples, it's not hard to find :


I can post dozens of light eyed Italians and pretending that light eyes in Italy are common. They are, but pics don't tell us in which percentage they are diffuse. Maps like these posted are ridicolous as they show that some areas in Middle East are fairer than some areas in Europe.
Anyway Spaniards look pretty similar to Italians so I don't understand the reason of the dispute...

----------


## Wilhelm

> I can post dozens of light eyed Italians and pretending that light eyes in Italy are common. They are, but pics don't tell us in which percentage they are diffuse. Maps like these posted are ridicolous as they show that some areas in Middle East are fairer than some areas in Europe.


Actually light-eyes in Italy and Spain ARE common. I posted this photos because that french troll said he didn't never see a spaniards with light eyes, stop with this imaginary competition of Spain vs Italy.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Light eyes. Spain, in this research, was counted as a whole, not divided in sub-regions like Italy. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Spain has 50% of people as light as Irish. Sure! 
> 
> 
> 
> I can post dozens of light eyed Italians and pretending that light eyes in Italy are common. They are, but pics don't tell us in which percentage they are diffuse. Maps like these posted are ridicolous as they show that some areas in Middle East are fairer than some areas in Europe.
> Anyway Spaniards look pretty similar to Italians so I don't understand the reason of the dispute...


What makes you think that Atlantids are all supposed to look exactly like a majority of Irish or other types from NW Europe. It's a fact that there is a significant Atlantid element in Spain and Portugal. What's the big deal about that? What's the problem? Do we have to post a few hundred group photos of Atlantid Iberians for you?

----------


## Wilhelm

The British Isles have a very significant, if not majority, of germanic input. But many of them, specially Irish, could pass easily in Iberia or France. In these types of Irish , there is an undeniable similarity with Iberians.

----------


## Vallicanus

To be honest the Spaniards depicted above look on the whole fairer in skin colour than the Italians, even some of the lighter-eyed Italians.

----------


## julia90

> The map (bad, just like 95% of the others) is about ALL light eyes, not just blue; that means blue, green, grey and amber. Dark eyes are brown, hazel and "black". Black eyes are really saturated brown and very uncommon in Europe. BTW, green is apparently the rarest light eye color.


I know, it's a bit difficult to divide the eye colors, hoevere belive me NE italy is the most light eyed part of italy

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> I know, it's a bit difficult to divide the eye colors, hoevere belive me NE italy is the most light eyed part of italy


I agree with that. I was in the eastern part of Lombardi and I noticed more light eyes there than any other area I visited in Italy. Beautiful region, BTW.

----------


## julia90

beautiful pics of italian mediterranean people (phenotype)

Men..dark and handsome....

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

Do you have similiar pics of females, too?  :Wink:

----------


## Vallicanus

So big-lipped, ill-shaved swarthies like most of these men are "handsome"? :Confused: 

They probably take home bags of dirty washing for mamma to wash.

----------


## julia90

> So big-lipped, ill-shaved swarthies like most of these men are "handsome"?
> 
> They probably take home bags of dirty washing for mamma to wash.


 :Embarassed:  De gustibus non disputandum

----------


## julia90

> Do you have similiar pics of females, too?







i will continue later, also with the male picks

----------


## Wilhelm

> So big-lipped, ill-shaved swarthies like most of these men are "handsome"?
> 
> They probably take home bags of dirty washing for mamma to wash.


meeeeee ! shut up.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> i will continue later, also with the male picks


Very nice.

----------


## Vallicanus

> meeeeee ! shut up.


 Sorry, you* like* these men. :Innocent:  :Innocent:

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

> i will continue later, also with the male picks


Wow great! THANK YOU!  :Heart:   :Grin:   :Heart:   :Grin:

----------


## Wilhelm

> Sorry, you* like* these men.


You don't like the women above, or they are too 'swarthy' also ?  :Innocent:

----------


## Vallicanus

> You don't like the women above, or they are too 'swarthy' also ?


They are fine except number 3 but I prefer blondes and redheads. :Good Job:

----------


## Wilhelm

> They are fine except number 3 but I prefer blondes and redheads.


Weren't you Sicilian ?  :Confused:

----------


## Vallicanus

Nope. :Confused:

----------


## julia90

> Nope.


sei italiano?

----------


## julia90



----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

North, south, east, west, Italian women are generally quite lovely.

----------


## Melusine

To (hopefully) understand the genetics of Italy, one has to check out its history.

All countries in Europe are a mixture of Y-DNA haplogroups (not just one)

To account for this variations one needs to understand this history of the Roman Empire and their slave trade. 

The question: Where the slaves come from? (to supply over a million+ slaves to Rome, there is this article : The Roman slave supply, Walter Scheidel, Princeton and Stanford University 2007. PDF, page 13.., they were from; the Iberian peninsula, the southern Balkans, North Africa, Western Anatolia, Gaul, the Levant, Britain, Germany,, Parthia ,. "Roman merchants bartered Italian wine for CELTIC chattels.etc, etc etc." 

Quote: "Roman law required dealers (in slavery) to disclose the ethinic origin of slaves."

Find article Yahoo or Google: The roman slave trade. www. princeton.edu etc.

All the above pictures clearly show the diversity of people that no doubt may be descendants of the million+ slaves of 2000 brought to Italy. 

One has to consider the population of Rome prior to 2000 years ago to see the reality of the different haplogroups found in Italy today infused by the slave trade.

Consider also that most likely the vast majority of slaves were MALE, since they were needed for the workforce. And males do pro-create and spread their Y-DNA!!! Fast forward 2000 years and voila! Haplogroups tested in Italy, are: R1b, R1a, J1, J2, G, E3b, I etc., etc, . 

One needed go back 20,000 years ago, just drop one 0 for a closer "reasonable" timeline.

Melusine

----------


## Drac

> To account for this variations one needs to understand this history of the Roman Empire and their slave trade. 
> 
> The question: Where the slaves come from? (to supply over a million+ slaves to Rome, there is this article : The Roman slave supply, Walter Scheidel, Princeton and Stanford University 2007. PDF, page 13.., they were from; the Iberian peninsula, the southern Balkans, North Africa, Western Anatolia, Gaul, the Levant, Britain, Germany,, Parthia ,. "Roman merchants bartered Italian wine for CELTIC chattels.etc, etc etc." 
> 
> Quote: "Roman law required dealers (in slavery) to disclose the ethinic origin of slaves."
> 
> Find article Yahoo or Google: The roman slave trade. www. princeton.edu etc.
> 
> All the above pictures clearly show the diversity of people that no doubt may be descendants of the million+ slaves of 2000 brought to Italy. 
> ...


It's not just slaves, there were also many free immigrants who moved to Roman Italy. Just look at how many emperors they had who were of foreign extraction.

----------


## Vallicanus

The latest genome-wide studies suggest North Italians resemble Spaniards while South Italians are closer to Greeks and Jews.

Tuscans are intermediate but closer genetically to North Italians.

----------


## Riccardo

I think there's not a big difference inside Italy. Of course the northerns are lighter...But the majority stay in a middle way!

----------


## julia90

i agree i don't see differences; however i don't know if you have seen the latest genetic studies on europeans populations:
italians
varies much more than anyother european populations, there's a high genetic difference in italy; sardinians have even their own genes, and genetcially they are relatively far from many other italians.
Northern italians are near spanish/portuguese french and swiss (more near to northern and north western europeans), southern italians are near greeks and south east balkans (they are more mediterranean and far from northern and north western europeans).

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> i agree i don't see differences; however i don't know if you have seen the latest genetic studies on europeans populations:
> italians
> varies much more than anyother european populations, there's a high genetic difference in italy; sardinians have even their own genes, and genetcially they are relatively far from many other italians.
> Northern italians are near spanish/portuguese french and swiss (more near to northern and north western europeans), southern italians are near greeks and south east balkans (they are more mediterranean and far from northern and north western europeans).


Absolutely. All the autosomal DNA research shows that very clearly.

----------


## julia90

indeed, but i've never understood the high genetic distanc between sardinians and italians; italians seems much more near russians and poles than to sardinians

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> indeed, but i've never understood the high genetic distanc between sardinians and italians; italians seems much more near russians and poles than to sardinians


Sardinians are amazing. They are among the oldest Europeans, along with Basques.

----------


## Riccardo

> i agree i don't see differences; however i don't know if you have seen the latest genetic studies on europeans populations:
> italians
> varies much more than anyother european populations, there's a high genetic difference in italy; sardinians have even their own genes, and genetcially they are relatively far from many other italians.
> Northern italians are near spanish/portuguese french and swiss (more near to northern and north western europeans), southern italians are near greeks and south east balkans (they are more mediterranean and far from northern and north western europeans).


That's great, you're totally right! And mixing the Northern features with the Southern ones the result in terms of ethnic variety is amazing!  :Smile:

----------


## archaiocapilos

Greeks do not cluster with Jews in any autosomal study. They form their own cluster together with South Italians and pretty close to Tuscans and Balkanians while Jews are an outlier in South Europe. They look like a Semitic/South European/Slavic mix with a strange connection with Adygei of Caucasus (Khazars?). The majority of Greeks don't have a semitic look they look completely European.

----------


## Angela

The maps I've seen, if I remember correctly, place Jewish people in a cluster right next to the Cypriots. I'll try to locate a few.

----------


## sparkey

> Sardinians are amazing. They are among the oldest Europeans, along with Basques.


Sardinians are probably older than Basques, genetically. Their mtDNA is comparably paleolithic if I recall correctly, but Basque Y-DNA is dominated by R1b, which has been in Europe since relatively recent times. Sardinians, on the other hand, have more haplogroup I (paleolithic Y-DNA) than anybody except Scandinavians and some groups in the Balkans... and those groups in the Balkans in particular do not have the same levels of paleolithic mtDNA. Sardinians may be the most anciently European people.

----------


## julia90

here are the averages face of italians

(i used footballplayers)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C7gPxf4vSI...-h/italy48.jpg
48 images


12 images

----------


## Jacktheripper

However created this thread doesn't know nothing about anthropology and general phenotypes of Italy.
Italy is not at all gracile med and med only, but mostly alpine and dinaric\dinaricized meds with a fair amount of Atlanto-Meds as well especially in Ligury, Tuscany, Lombardia and Emilia Romagna, but you can find them all over Italy more or less. The gracile meds and berids are to be found mostly in Sardinia, the rest of Italy lacks them mostly save some parts of Calabria. All the pictures of dark guys posted by the owner of the thread are of S.Italian origins, no one of them is from Central or N.Italy. The differences are not enormous but there are and you can notice it.
Livi and Biasutti shown that blonde hair and blue eyes are not rare at all and not only present in N.East Italy or around Alps but scattered in the whole Italy with several enclaves where the % in some cases is striking. 



> italy is in the centre of mediterranean europe, therefore it received inputs from many part of southern europe, a great part of it belongs to the east med basin type, expecially in southern italy where in the past were greek colonies, the etruscans in tuscany that came from anatolia and arrived there from the crescent valley (tigri/eufate) i think.
> the arab influence is scarce and restricted to some place of sicily.


It is not so sure, most of the genetic studies over Etruscans were just biased in favour of Turkye; those same "Anatolian haplos" found "only" in Turks and the people of "Murlo" are presents all over Europe. Furthermore the Etruscans intermingled with pre-etruscan people too; Ligures, Umbrians and Villanovians mostly and any study suggest a mass migration from Anatolia in that time. So the west asian haplogroups found in Italy are mostly neolitich, not from recent historical movements.



> about the dinarics you are right, they appearence (that of classical dinarics) is similar to mediterraneans or southern european phenotypes, expecially the dinarid forms toghether with mediterranean the eastern med type.


The dinaric typology doesn't form the eastern med type at all, and it is not similar to med.
The several dinaric types are found in Germany too in large number.
The dinaric type is a central\north balkan peculiarity, i fail to see those countries pure "eastern meds". 


As for all the maps posted by some people here, the closeness of Spaniards to French is because of the lack of other Spaniards, as iinstead happens with Tuscans and N.Italians who of course cluster closer being of a more similar stock compared to French.


Italy has had a greater neolitich impact than Iberia, and then it appears a little more "toward" east. In comparison Italy has much less recent admixture from historical periods compared to Iberia, save maybe Sicily.

----------


## julia90

well, neolithic is mediterranean. where do you think mediterranean phenotypes in italy comes from?( mostly gracil meds). dinarids are found in italy, the balkans, and as far as north as germany, as far as west as south east france and as far as east to the balkans.

in the rest of europe then you have dinaroids form, but aren't dinaric.
dinaric pigmentstion wise is similar to med, and because of the convex nose, it has an east med vibe.

----------


## Jacktheripper

To start with Italy is not mostly med. Second, not necessarily dinaric have convex armenoid nose, just as the meds, be them eastern or western.
Third, pigmentation has nothing to do with phenotype, nobody in anthropology divides subraces basing over skin tones.
You can be a dark west med and completely different from a fair east med in phenotype.

----------


## julia90

dinarids all have convex noses, basic mediterraneans have a straight nose

----------


## Jacktheripper

In Italy you have a mix of alpine\med\dinarics, the pure meds and the pure dinaric are few compared to the former.

----------


## julia90

well, in saying that you are right.

----------


## Jacktheripper

If you say that in Italy there are "eastern med" directly linked to neolitich farmers they should have necessarily convex nose going by your logic.

----------


## julia90

well, a lot of people in italy have convex noses.
the typical tuscan nose is convex for example

----------


## julia90

this is a typical italian dinaro-med
from GF



she's also quite similar to me, same profile and facial structure also pigmentation wise.
therev are many girls like that (dinaro-med) in italy

----------


## Jacktheripper

I know many people from Tuscany and i haven't noticed all those convex noses. 
I'm from Emilia Romagna, and i work in Pisa, so i see Tuscans every day.

Tuscans are mostly Alpo\Dinaric with a fair % of Atlanto\med\cromagnoids.
Fair eyes and hair are quite common, norics\depigmented tall meds\fair alpines are not rare at all.

----------


## Jacktheripper

That girl is alpo\dinaric but the nose is not very convex to my eyes.
By the way she has nothing of east med vibe in my opinion.
You could see her type in S.France without problems.

----------


## julia90

well, there are many, in emilia romagna you have also more north western phenotypes, it's different from tuscany.
dinaro-meds are very common in italy, and above all in tuscany. Dante alighieri, chiellini, gianna nannini, roberto benigni, and many common people.
besides, that girs surname is from Veneto, she's northern italian.

----------


## julia90

> That girl is alpo\dinaric but the nose is not very convex to my eyes.
> By the way she has nothing of east med vibe in my opinion.
> You could see her type in S.France without problems.


 i agree, south east france is quite similar to italy, more so northern italy, they were both inhabitated by ligurians and also celts, more so in south east france also for internal migrations in france

----------


## julia90

well her phenotype is more common to italy, and not france, she's very typical for italy, certainly there are types like that in south-east france (but fewer)

----------


## Jacktheripper

> well, there are many, in emilia romagna you have also more north western phenotypes, it's different from tuscany.
> dinaro-meds are very common in italy, and above all in tuscany. Dante alighieri, chiellini, gianna nannini, roberto benigni, and many common people.
> besides, that girs surname is from Veneto, she's northern italian.



To be real Emilia and Tuscany look quite similar and if have to make a comparison i have seen more fair eyes in Tuscany than in Emilia.
Going with Livi's survey, Tuscany has more light eyed people than Emilia as well.
Why do you want to dark wash Tuscany? :Thinking: 

What about Irene Grandi, Vittoria Puccini, Paolo Conticini, Alessandro Diamanti?
Aren't they tuscans?

----------


## julia90

i think emilia romagna is more light eyed, in emilia you have celtic tribes settlements boii, all northern italy plus marche (ager gallicus) was inhabitated by tribes similar to france (gauls), tuscany was inhabitateds by neolitics, villanovians (italics?), etruscans and ligurians

----------


## julia90

well, of course there are also more nordic tuscans, i know many friends that have a nordic appearence, there were also goths settlement in tuscany, and longobards (mostly lucca for longobards)

----------


## Jacktheripper

Well Emilia too has had etruscan settlements, but i think that Etruscans and neolitich farmers were very different from modern day Levatines.
Plus Tuscany was settled by celts(Senones) who came from Marche, then there were Umbrians who were not so dissimilar from other Italic tribes akin to celts and in the Arezzo's province there were Bituriges. Later in time there have been the Longobard dukedom called Marca di Tuscia and Franks.

----------


## julia90

celts never came in tuscany, there are some celtic phenotypes as well (a bit rare) , but (could be medieval migrations?), umbrians were italics.

----------


## julia90

> Well Emilia too has had etruscan settlements, but i think that Etruscans and neolitich farmers were very different from modern day Levatines.
> Plus Tuscany was settled by celts(Senones) who came from Marche, then there were Umbrians who were not so dissimilar from other Italic tribes akin to celts and in the Arezzo's province there were Bituriges. Later in time there have been the Longobard dukedom called Marca di Tuscia and Franks.


ironically i have origins from arezzo (father side), Chiana Valley.
i know there were some middle ages germanic settlements, but the bulks is etruscan i belive, this part of italy was the core of etruscan civilization

----------


## Jacktheripper

Some Senones came from Marche and settled in South Tuscany, some Bituriges settled around Arezzo instead. 
Ligures were mostly in North Tuscany but i presume they had strong relationship with Celts from Emilia.

Umbrians were Italics, but Italic tribes and Celts were very similar and celt\italic languages were intelligible meaning a common substratum.

----------


## Jacktheripper

Mind that Etruscans didn't find an empty Tuscany. There were various pre-etruscan tribes with which they melted.


Anyway talking about germanic settlements in Tuscany even Gioacchino Volpe admitted that Tuscany for its position was one of the most settled by Longobards, Goths and Franks.

----------


## Jacktheripper

> celts never came in tuscany, there are some celtic phenotypes as well (a bit rare) , but (could be medieval migrations?), umbrians were italics.


Vittoria Puccini and Zeffirelli doen't look celt? :Good Job: 

la_bella_vittoria_puccini_aead.jpg

----------


## julia90

they do. (as i said there are some phenotypes like that, but the bulk is mediterranean-dinaric-alpinid-g med-east med)

----------


## Jacktheripper

> they do. (as i said there are some phenotypes like that, but the bulk is mediterranean-dinaric-alpinid-g med-east med)


Dinaric\alpine\tall med i agree, east med is more common in the South of Italy not in central Italy hence Tuscany.

This is a east med:
lundracesfig8.jpg

It doesn't seem so common in Tuscany or central Italy to me.

----------


## Vallicanus

According to Livi's old survey, the biggest Italy has had, Tuscany as a whole is lighter in hair and eye colour than Emilia-Romagna.

Etruscan wall paintings do show a few blonds and redheads even in antiquity.

In Lucca province Nordids are less common than in the rest of Tuscany, Longobards or not, and most Lucchese blonds or near-blonds are of a Cro-Magnon/Borreby type which may also be ancient.

----------


## Jacktheripper

> According to Livi's old survey, the biggest Italy has had, Tuscany as a whole is lighter in hair and eye colour than Emilia-Romagna.
> 
> Etruscan wall paintings do show a few blonds and redheads even in antiquity.
> 
> In Lucca province Nordids are less common than in the rest of Tuscany, Longobards or not, and most Lucchese blonds or near-blonds are of a Cro-Magnon/Borreby type which may also be ancient.


Yes. With all the respect to Julia this thread is misleading, every anthropologist would contradict everything said in the first pages.
East med phenotype is very rare in Tuscany, the commoner is alpine\dinaric\tall med, meaning even the fairest types of those subraces. Fair eyes and Hair are quite common, cro-magnoid strain too especially in the North of Tuscany, but you can find it also in the rest of the region.
Tuscany does have more fair haired and eyed people than Emilia according to Livi and even several red haired. 


Etruscans had strong connection with Ligures, even the Aeneid speaks of a tribe called Rutulians(meaning reds and blondes)which is now considered according by modern scholars liguro\etruscan.
Then there are the etruscan paintings, that clearly show that fair people was not so uncommon.

----------


## Drac

> However created this thread doesn't know nothing about anthropology and general phenotypes of Italy.
> Italy is not at all gracile med and med only, but mostly alpine and dinaric\dinaricized meds with a fair amount of Atlanto-Meds as well especially in Ligury, Tuscany, Lombardia and Emilia Romagna, but you can find them all over Italy more or less. The gracile meds and berids are to be found mostly in Sardinia, the rest of Italy lacks them mostly save some parts of Calabria.


That depends on what anthropologist you read. Alpines only seem to be common in the North. They certainly are not the majority of the Italian population (and even if they were, that obviously would not prevent them from being perfectly capable of producing "dark" types. Even among the French "Alpines" you can find "dark" types. Plenty of "Alpines" are in fact darker than plenty of "Mediterraneans".) Coon, whom you seem to be trying to follow, also says that the "coarse Mediterranean" is particularly prevalent among southern Italians.




> All the pictures of dark guys posted by the owner of the thread are of S.Italian origins, no one of them is from Central or N.Italy. The differences are not enormous but there are and you can notice it.


Finding "dark" Central and Northern Italians is not really difficult:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/leganord.html

http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/






> As for all the maps posted by some people here, the closeness of Spaniards to French is because of the lack of other Spaniards, as iinstead happens with Tuscans and N.Italians who of course cluster closer being of a more similar stock compared to French.


Actually it's the other way around. Genetic studies tend not to separate Spaniards into geographical areas, like they usually do with Italians. And even by lumping Spain all together and isolating Italians into geographical groups, Spaniards still cluster closer to and have more "overlap" with the French and even Swiss:


http://www.plosone.org/article/showI...e.0005472.g002 




> Italy has had a greater neolitich impact than Iberia, and then it appears a little more "toward" east. In comparison Italy has much less recent admixture from historical periods compared to Iberia, save maybe Sicily.


I am skeptical of such claims. The genetic markers that some dubious genetic studies (ex: Capelli et al. 2009) have arbitrarily labelled as "historical" are thousands of years old, so there is no way of telling if they are really of "historical" introduction in any given country. They could have been introduced long before written history. In any event, in Iberia the majority of the genetic markers supposedly associated with "historical events" are in Portugal, not Spain.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

There were quite a few Spanish samples in many of the autosomal studies I read. They all show Spaniards clustering with French, Portuguese and Northern Italians, with some closeness to Swiss. That's pretty much a given.

----------


## Jacktheripper

> That depends on what anthropologist you read. Alpines only seem to be common in the North. They certainly are not the majority of the Italian population (and even if they were, that obviously would not prevent them from being perfectly capable of producing "dark" types. Even among the French "Alpines" you can find "dark" types. Plenty of "Alpines" are in fact darker than plenty of "Mediterraneans".) Coon, whom you seem to be trying to follow, also says that the "coarse Mediterranean" is particularly prevalent among southern Italians.


Infact i spoke about a mix, sure is that Italy is not predominantly med or coarse med as somebody is trying to portray here. As for the alpines darker than meds i have my doubts and it is not corroborated by any study for what i know.
Every survey made over Italy speak about a massive presence of Dinaric\Alpine compared to coarse med anyway.






> Finding "dark" Central and Northern Italians is not really difficult:
> 
> http://racialreality.110mb.com/leganord.html
> 
> http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/


I don't get this to be real, it seems a spite to me.
Dark phenotypes are everywhere in Europe. Not only in Italy.
Spain has its fair amount too.
This does not change the fact that there are tangible clinal differences in Italy and Livi's survey given completely different datas over the biggest study ever made in Italy. 






> Actually it's the other way around. Genetic studies tend not to separate Spaniards into geographical areas, like they usually do with Italians. And even by lumping Spain all together and isolating Italians into geographical groups, Spaniards still cluster closer to and have more "overlap" with the French and even Swiss:
> 
> 
> [URL="URL="http://www.plosone.org/article/showImageLarge.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj ournal.pone.0005472.g002"]http://www.plosone.org/article/showImageLarge.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fj ournal.pone.0005472.g002"]


As i said, Italy has been affected more by neolitich, Spain less, that's why the closeness probably. Anyway it's well known the closeness of S.Italy with Greece, i was talking about that map with North Italy and Central Italy showing French, Spaniards, Tuscans and North Italians. It's obvious that if you put Tuscans and North Italians togheter they are closer.
Anyway:
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg
I can't see all the closeness you claim for Spaniards with Swiss people.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

The great majority of extra-European markers in both Spain and Portugal are many thousands of years old, according to most population genetics research. Autosomal studies show minor North African and Middle Eastern markers in Iberia. The percentages are only slightly higher for Portugal vis-a-vis Spain. Iberia as a whole trends much more Paleolithic.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

Some CH (Swiss) samples fall closer to Spaniards and other Iberians although most cluster primarily with the French on the plot posted. I think "closeness" was mentioned, not general clustering.

----------


## Jacktheripper

> Some CH (Swiss) samples fall closer to Spaniards and other Iberians


Are we watching the same map?
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg

----------


## Regulus

> Who is she? She looks likes me! I got scared for a second, I thought it was my pic!  Only I have more oval face and blue eyes (hers look like blue-gray in the pic).
> 
> 
> ...


Marianne, I once had the exact same experience! The difference was that my mirror image was staring at me from a mug shot (arrest photo), not a photo that was complimentary. I'm a cop, and I was setting up a line-up to show to a victim. While doing so I was startled to be looking at what I thought was my own face. I had to go back, look up the other guys name, and note it in case I ever got accused of anything I did not do.

----------


## Drac

> Infact i spoke about a mix, sure is that Italy is not predominantly coarse med or eastern med.


It isn't predominantly "Alpine" either. 




> As for the alpines darker than meds i have my doubts and it is not corroborated by any study for what i know.


"Mediterranean", contrary to popular beliefs, is not a "complexion" but a skeletal/cranial type, it has nothing to do with pigmentation. "Mediterraneans" vary widely in hair, eye and skin pigmentation, just like "Alpines" do:

"As a rule his (i.e. the Mediterranean's) skin is some shade of white, from pink or peaches-and-cream to a light brown...

The Mediterranean’s hair is usually black or dark brown, while his whiskers may reveal a few strands of red or even blond. Blond hair may be seen, but it is the exception. Its presence does not require some invasion of Goths or Scyths or the miscegenation of Crusaders. One of the characteristics of the Mediterranean race is a minority tendency toward blondism. This is seen much more frequently in the eyes, since blond hair, which appears in infants, usually darkens as the hair coarsens with age. Among Mediterraneans every shade of eye color appears. Coal black is exceptional, a dark or medium brown most common. Nearly a fourth of any sample, however, will have blue, gray or green eyes, usually mixed with brown in the iris pattern. Eyes do not darken with age; hence the greater prevalence of light eyes rather than blond hair among the adult." (Carleton Coon, "Caravan: the story of the Middle East", page 155.)

You can also take a look at skin pigmentation studies. The more strongly "Alpine" northern Italy is not "lighter" than the more strongly "Mediterranean" Spain.




> I don't get this to be real, it seems a spite to me.
> Dark phenotypes are everywhere in Europe. Not only in Italy.
> Spain has its fair amount too.
> This does not change the fact that there are tangible clinal differences in Italy.


Yes, but what the author of those pages points out is the hypocrisy and exaggerations of the more radical among the northern Italian separatists, who want to portray northern Italy as if it was Germany while southern Italy as if it was the Middle East.




> i was talking about that map with North Italy and Central Italy showing French, Spaniards, Tuscans and North Italians. It's obvious that if you put Tuscans and North Italians togheter they are closer.


Which map were you referring to? The one I showed you separated Northern Italy from Southern Italy and it still did not cluster closer or overlap more with France and Switzerland than Spain did (which was not separated into geographical areas.)




> Anyway:
> http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg
> I can't see all the closeness you claim to Swiss people.


Even that map shows that as a whole Spain clusters closer to France than Italy does (the majority of Italy is shown further south.)

This one also shows the same:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/sc...B40K6Hv5bA2uTg

Spain (this time divided into 2 regions) again clustered closer to and overlapped with France and even Switzerland, while Italy (divided into two as well) did not overlap with either.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> Are we watching the same map?
> http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg


Yes, the 2008 map. At least one of the CH samples clusters with Spaniards (and French) and there are a few others that trend towards the Iberian quadrant. No big deal. It's relative closeness we are talking about.

----------


## Wilhelm

He is refering to this one, from the same study : 

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/193/laoplot02qp5.jpg

----------


## Mzungu mchagga

The fact that various anthropoligists were for so long time so intensely debating about the exact separation of those alleged sub-races (what a good biologist actually should do IMO), as well as that a horde of unbalanced college students is unable to find a consent on classifying individuals from day to day again (e.g. anthroscape: 'Guess me', 'Guess my granny', 'Guess my dog' etc...), is both proof enough that there is not much scientific about it.

It may be of some use in a style or fashion consultation at a beauty saloon, but that's it! Oh and yeah, I DO have the feeling that people who are obsessed with these sub-races have a problem with themselves, trying to find an identity their life couldn't provide them yet, clearly separating between 'us' and 'them'.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

Well said...

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

Today, biological anthropologists have little use for 19th and 20th century phenotype classifications. No serious academic sees such as more than "ancient pseudo-scientific curiosities".

----------


## Angela

Totally agree with both Grey Moss and Mzungu. Perhaps we should concentrate on the topic by using Mtdna, Ydna, and autosomal studies. There are certainly remaining questions about Italian genetics and the population movements that created it where additional input would be helpful to me at least, but using poorly understood and badly differentiated out of date tools just leads to more confusion.

And just for the record, to all these debates about hair color, eye color, skin color, etc., in Italy and out, I have a question; WHO CARES AND WHY? I certainly don't. I think the usefulness of this kind of data to tease out population movement is limited at best. Is there an underlying agenda involved? I certainly hope not. 

BTW Drac, this is not to say that I don't think you made some good points. Like it or lump it, there is some sort of genetic barrier at the Alps. According to Lao et al anyway, it is one of the major ones in Europe (along with one that separates out the Finns). Within Italy there is a gradual cline, with a slighly steeper gradient around Rome, again according to Lao et al.(If I remember correctly there is a similar one between northern and southern Germany.) This is certainly not a genetic break. While there is definitely a lot of heterogeneity in Italy, there is still an "Italian signature". That's what I am interested in exploring, and I have "no dog in the hunt". I'm proud of all my ancestors.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

Autosomal studies are most important because they measure full heredity. Haplogroups are only useful in understanding ancient migration contributions. There are many Euros with haplogroups extensively found in Asian, African and Indian sub-continent regions who look perfectly Western European.

----------


## julia90

responding to the interesting questions of Angela:

Yes, there are some characteristic phenotypes typcal of italy, that you almost not find in other part of europe.

For example Campanian phenotypes:

facial features like this (don't watch pigmentation)






this faces are very typical of south-centre (Campania, southern Lazio..), and you don't find them in other part of italy or europe

every time i see a face similar to those 99% he/she 's from the area of Campania.

----------


## zanipolo

what is the classification of light eyes?

I am from the veneto, I have green eyes, my partner also from the veneto ( bordering friuli) has blue eyes, my father has green , yet my mother and sister has hazel eyes. My partners parents and brothers have grey or blue eyes. 
I have tracked my family line to be 14 generations ( so far) in the Veneto . What does all this eye colour indicate. I cannot see any significance to eye colour and genetics when you speak of middle europe.

Maybe dark brown is the only colour which must be classified as dark eyes!

----------


## julia90

> what is the classification of light eyes?
> 
> I am from the veneto, I have green eyes, my partner also from the veneto ( bordering friuli) has blue eyes, my father has green , yet my mother and sister has hazel eyes. My partners parents and brothers have grey or blue eyes. 
> I have tracked my family line to be 14 generations ( so far) in the Veneto . What does all this eye colour indicate. I cannot see any significance to eye colour and genetics when you speak of middle europe.
> 
> Maybe dark brown is the only colour which must be classified as dark eyes!


people in veneto may descend from italic tribes mixed with celtic tribes (Carni).
So you may be similar more to central and north-western europeans.
North-east italy is the most light eyed part of italy.

Here are useful sites about surnames origins in italy:
http://www.gens.labo.net/
http://www.cognomiitaliani.org/cognomi/index.html
http://italia.indettaglio.it/ita/cognomi/cognomi.html

----------


## marica mandic

I see You in Italy have too much difficult DNK. AS ethnic group ,You have all similar characteristics, but geneticlly you are different. In area Italy , during the history, was many migrations, and as a result we have this

----------


## Riccardo

Two typical instances of Italian blondes and blue eyed! Daniele De Rossi and Laura Chiatti!  :Good Job:

----------


## Sybilla

If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals, that's why Northern Italians are on avarage lighter than Southern Italians. It has nothing to do with the germanic invasions (they altered less than 4% the Italian genetics and they occurred also or mostly in Southern Italy), rather the cause is this:

asolarirrad.gif

In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French. Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.

----------


## Drac

> If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals, that's why Northern Italians are on avarage lighter than Southern Italians. It has nothing to do with the germanic invasions (they altered less than 4% the Italian genetics and they occurred also or mostly in Southern Italy), rather the cause is this:
> 
> asolarirrad.gif
> 
> In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French. Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.


 
That's not what actual pigmentation surveys of these countries show. The most common skin phototypes in both Italy and Spain are III and II. Northern Spaniards were found lighter pigmented than Belgians and southeast English, and similar to Irish and Welsh, in Jablonski & Chaplin's skin pigmentation study ("The evolution of human skin coloration"), so I doubt that northern Italians are somehow going to be lighter.

Plus what matters for skin pigmentation is the UV index:

uviec2002100131_lr.gif

----------


## Sybilla

I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe. About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).
The warmest place of Europe does is Andalusia in August, following Crete and Cyprus (Greece).

Anyway according to Jablonki and Chaplin, this is the human skintone.

UV and skin color.jpg

It confirms what I said, so I really don't get your point.
Spaniards still are white and Europeans. None is doubting of this.

----------


## Drac

> I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe.


You can "doubt" all you want, but pigmentation observations, surveys and studies have been carried out starting since at least the second half of the 19th century up until recent times, and none of them says the absurd things you claim. No anthropologist has ever declared Spaniards "the darkest of Europe", but at least one of them (Deniker) declared southern Italians to be so:

"The Swedes are the blondest, and the south Italians the darkest people." ["Mixed races of Europe", cited in The Literary Digest, Volume 30 (May 20, 1905), page 746.]





> About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).


Apparently you need some eyeglasses, as all of Italy is included in the same "light blue" zone as Iberia, southern France and the whole Balkans.

It is true that the UV index varies through the year, in fact it varies from day to day. I can in fact show days when it's higher in Italy than in Iberia. But it normally is at a similar level for that given area of Europe. Here is how it is today:



uvief0_w.gif


More of the same. Italy is included in the same "green" zone as Iberia, southern France and the whole Balkans.

Let's see August, 2008:


uvief20080818_w.gif 

Little has changed, except that this time even much of central Europe is in the "green" zone, alongside all of southern Europe.






> Anyway according to Jablonki and Chaplin, this is the human skintone.
> 
> UV and skin color.jpg
> 
> It confirms what I said, so I really don't get your point.


That map is not about observed skin tones either (the study where that map was published does point out that the observed skin tones do not necessarily match the "predicted" ones from such considerations as UV radiation), and once again Italy is included in "zone 2", as Iberia, the Balkans and a lot of central Europe.

----------


## Wilhelm

> If we speak of phenotypes you must consider also the solar rays exposition. The areas of Europe with the highest percentage of solar rays exposition usually have darker skinned individuals,


That's not true. Pigmentation of skin is based on many different factors, not just solar radiation.




> In terms of pigmentation, southern Italians and southern Spaniards are indentical, while Northern Spaniards are like central Italians and northern Italians like central French.


I would say southern spaniards are like north-italians and northern spaniards are like french and western-europeans. 




> Genetics say that Spaniards are closer to the French,but daily Northern Italians look closer to them in the stereotype, this is the cause.


 Based on what ? What stereotype ?




> I doubt that it has ever been done a serious survey about pigmentation of these peoples and I doubt twice than Northern Spaniards are lighter than Belgians, considering that Spaniards as a whole are known to be the darkest of Europe.


spaniards the darkest of Europe ? Who says that ? Because a scientific study from the Academy of Sciences of California about skin pigmentation shows that spaniards's skin tone is comparable to that of western-Europeans. I would say the darkest of Europe are Greeks and then Italians. 




> About the UV index, the picture you posted confirms that Spain has more solar exposition that central and Northern Italy (the survey dates October anyway, while the main differences are visible mostly in August).
> The warmest place of Europe does is Andalusia in August, following Crete and Cyprus (Greece).


Skin tones depends on many different factors, not just one (solar radiation).

----------


## julia90

Italy is famous as one nation of Big Nosed People, there are many convex noses on the population.
This is a feature you find in certain parts of the balkans too, south of Croata mostly (I've seen it myself), in countries like Albania, Greece, Montenegro and also in more inside areas of the balkans.
Italians can easily pass as locals there.

Zambrotta


Margherita Zanatta


these people could easily be Greeks, Albanians, Croatians, Bosnians, Romenians (many of them show hooked noses) etc...

This shows maybe a common origins, of italians with the ancient people of the balkans, Pelasgians, Neolithic, Italic, Greek connections??

i don't know if illyrians and thracians can be put in the hooked nose group

I also want some opinions of balkanians forum members.

----------


## Vallicanus

According to Livi over 65 per cent of Italian noses were STRAIGHT, only 14.6 pc were convex/aquiline and 18.7 pc were upturned (arricciato)/or flat (schiacciato).

For Nasal Index (NI), according to Dr Mori, quoted by Livi, all regions in Italy had a relatively high figure, usually between 67 and 70, falling to 65.4 in Liguria (but from a very small sample of 40).
The Romagna has the narrowest noses with a NI of 61 for the province of Forli' and the narrow-nosed tendency has modified the Po Plain while mountain areas in the Alps and Apennines tend to have a higher NI (broader nose).
Biasutti also mentioned that Liguria was also relatively narrower-nosed with influences over all of western Tuscany.

----------


## julia90

that's interesting, so does it means that italians have broad noses? and that their noses are long?

for example i took my nose from my father one, we both have convex noses, my mother has a straight nose and also my brother.. are convex noses dominant or recessive?

my boyfriend has also a convex nose, if we will have sons do they all be hooked nosed?

----------


## julia90

do you think convex nose is only a balkanian typology or also nordic can have aquiline noses?
i think it's typical of balacans asia minor and middle east.

----------


## Vallicanus

[QUOTE=julia90;372295]that's interesting, so does it means that italians have broad noses? and that their noses are long?

QUOTE]


In many cases this is true but I feel that most blogs and forums exaggerate the "Dinaric" or "Dinaromorphic" nature of Italians. They are a minority in Italy.

Northern Italians are *mainly* a mix of Alpines with both tall and short Meds while Southern Italians are mostly short,often coarse-featured Meds (Berids) and Alpines.

----------


## zanipolo

I thought hooked noses was a reference to the ancient romans

----------


## Riccardo

I don't see so many hooked noses, at least here in Roma. The mine is straight too.

----------


## julia90

it's also a reference to some middleage italians

----------


## julia90

this kind of convex noses i've also seen in Romanians and Albanians immigrants.
In romanians is also common in blonde people, while in albanians you find convex noses only among mediterranean ones.

----------


## joeyc

Julia is not Tuscan. She is a self hating Sardinian girl from Cagliari named Chiara. She also writes on other forums.

----------


## julia90

C è qualche sfigato della piola a rompermi le scatole anche qui? :)

continuate a fare i discorsi di picchiare la gente sfigatacci ma non mi venite a scassare qui.

comunque sono Toscana.

non ti permettere di offendermi; sennò partono offese ancora più pesanti :)

----------


## joeyc

I've read the whole thread. What can I say? Local Irish wannabe Iberians should go outside to see with their eyes how swarty and medish many of their compatriots look like, instead of fapping on that 5% of Iberians who look Irish.

----------


## joeyc

I've actually been to Iberia and both French and especially British tourists sticked out like sore thumbs.

Atlantic facade exists only on the internet.

----------


## Aberdeen

Joeyc, you and Drac have more in common than you may think.

----------


## ihype02

Can someone extract i2a-din in Italy? I2a as a whole is about 3%.

----------


## Parapolitikos

i Would say based on History and the averages from genetic tests databases Italian DNA IS princibly fro,
m these three groups:
70+/-% of Balkanic groups(in a broader sense)
20-25% of Central European
5% of south Mediterranean origins/middle eastern

----------


## Salento

From my perspective:
Attachment 9090
Attachment 9091

----------


## Jovialis

> From my perspective:
> Attachment 9090
> Attachment 9091


The top two pics look consistent with national geographic's Italian/Southern European Component.




Does this mean the Umbrian/Oscan/South Picene what makes up the bulk of Italian ancestry component? 

 :Thinking: 



Furthermore, I guess people from Marche, Abruzzo, and Molise are the most _Italian_ on average.

----------


## Angela

Obviously, gentlemen, they're totally full of it. :)

Nobody is more Italian than I am, and I would probably test 50-60% on that thing, which is close to what I score on 23andme.

----------


## Jovialis

> Nobody is more Italian than I am


I nominate you as our leader :)

----------


## Salento

> Obviously, gentlemen, they're totally full of it. :)
> 
> Nobody is more Italian than I am


I Believe you, 100%
lol

----------


## Angela

> I nominate you as our leader :)


I would quite like that. :) "Bend the knee, Jon Snow!"

I have no dragons, though, to enforce my rule!

Seriously, for a moment, I think Tuscans and central Italians, although impacted by other migrations, are probably less impacted than either the north or the south, so perhaps they should be used as the reference population?

----------


## Jovialis

> I would quite like that. :) "Bend the knee, Jon Snow!"
> 
> I have no dragons, though, to enforce my rule!
> 
> Seriously, for a moment, I think Tuscans and central Italians, although impacted by other migrations, are probably less impacted than either the north or the south, so perhaps they should be used as the reference population?


I've been trying to wrap my head around the way they organize the reference populations.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34439-Regional-Populations-for-NG-2-0-Helix-Version?p=517399&viewfull=1#post517399

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517505

----------


## Angela

> I've been trying to wrap my head around the way they organize the reference populations.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517399
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517505


Some of that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would some people be getting such relatively high Jewish Diaspora scores?

Clearly, their centrum for Italy is southern Italy if Tuscans score only 67% "Italian". It's basically the same in 23andme, where I score in the high 50s, which makes sense as I always scored between Bergamo and Florentines in the old dodecad calculators, and with the Piemonte sample when that's available (Piemonte, Liguria, Emilia, actually, given where the sample was collected). I thought in that case it was because their reference population for Italians includes their own customers, who are almost all Italian-Americans, and thus almost by definition southern Italians.

I think perhaps in the case of this company they are including almost all of France in the northwestern centrum, so a lot of northern Italy is going to be subsumed in that? That is certainly not the way I would have done it. There's nothing particularly "northwestern" about southwestern France, as we know from samples taken there, or southeastern France I have no doubt, as I think we would see if we had a research sample from there. 

So much of this kind of analysis is based on the assumptions and sometimes even the prejudices of the creators of these tests. Obviously, Spencer Wells thinks the French are all predominantly northwestern (which they are not, as the results from Gascony tell us), as are the Norwegians and Swedes, and the people of the British Isles, and "real" Italians are southern Italians. If he had a Northwestern category based on the British Isles, and a Northern category for northern Germany and Scandinavia, and a Northeastern category, and an "Italian" category based on Tuscans, and an Iberian category, and maybe a Greek one, the percentages would all shift. 

I personally don't pay too much attention to it. If you know your ancestry, you don't need it. If you're mixed, it can't tell you anything very specific. The only thing it can do is confirm you are who you thought you are, and you're similar to the people in your region...

----------


## davef

Why not instead of having one Italian category, split by region.: north, central, and south Italy. That way nobody will be confused.

----------


## Angela

^^Even that isn't foolproof. The Abruzzi are part of "Central Italy" geographically but are southern Italian culturally, linguistically and genetically. Some of Lazio used to be part of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and thus southern Italian in culture and language, and from what I have seen also southern Italian genetically. Tuscany is sort of in between northern Italy and central Italy, as all the downstream R1b might indicate. The different regions in the north are, in my opinion, more different from one another genetically than are parts of the south from one another, perhaps partly because of the many city states, duchies, foreign rulers, and maybe some drift. 

Just take a look at the spread of the Italian populations on any PCA. Half of the rest of Europe doesn't take up as much room.

----------


## Salento

Uncofuse Yourself. 
Who Were the Italians 2000 years ago!
Italy according to Augustus. ps by this time in history the inhabitants of Rome and the Italians considered themselves Romans, not just citizens of Rome, for the most part.
Diocletian eventually added Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and as Bonus Malta.
Attachment 9092

----------


## Jovialis

> Some of that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would some people be getting such relatively high Jewish Diaspora scores?


I made a post about this, the history of the Jewish expulsion from Italy to those countries would account for those percentages I think.




> Clearly, their centrum for Italy is southern Italy if Tuscans score only 67% "Italian". It's basically the same in 23andme, where I score in the high 50s, which makes sense as I always scored between Bergamo and Florentines in the old dodecad calculators, and with the Piemonte sample when that's available (Piemonte, Liguria, Emilia, actually, given where the sample was collected). I thought in that case it was because their reference population for Italians includes their own customers, who are almost all Italian-Americans, and thus almost by definition southern Italians.


https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/
https://genographic.nationalgeograph...e-populations/

The older descriptions for the Tuscan reference population explains that the Lombards contributed to increasing Northern European ancestry in the 6th-8th centuries. This ancestry would be shared with people in Northern Europe. Lydia Ramsey is Scandinavian, so if you look at how they break down her ancestry, It makes sense as to why Northern Italians and Tuscans have an increase of those components. Thus that would account for the increase to 9% Northwestern, and 12% Eastern Europe components, via Lombards, in Tuscans. These are more recent contributions.

Lydia's Results:


"The Lombards were one of the Germanic tribes that formed the Suebi, and during the 1st century ad their home was in *northwestern Germany*."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Lombard-people




> I think perhaps in the case of this company they are including almost all of France in the northwestern centrum, so a lot of northern Italy is going to be subsumed in that? That is certainly not the way I would have done it. There's nothing particularly "northwestern" about southwestern France, as we know from samples taken there, or southeastern France I have no doubt, as I think we would see if we had a research sample from there.


No they don't, they only consider Northern France to be Northwestern European, and few other countries. The map is misleading; here's the description.





> So much of this kind of analysis is based on the assumptions and sometimes even the prejudices of the creators of these tests. Obviously, Spencer Wells thinks the French are all predominantly northwestern (which they are not, as the results from Gascony tell us), as are the Norwegians and Swedes, and the people of the British Isles, and "real" Italians are southern Italians. If he had a Northwestern category based on the British Isles, and a Northern category for northern Germany and Scandinavia, and a Northeastern category, and an "Italian" category based on Tuscans, and an Iberian category, and maybe a Greek one, the percentages would all shift. 
> 
> I personally don't pay too much attention to it. If you know your ancestry, you don't need it. If you're mixed, it can't tell you anything very specific. The only thing it can do is confirm you are who you thought you are, and you're similar to the people in your region...


I'm pretty sure these are based on historic populations, not just sampling from Southern Italians. It includes migrates from the north pushing southward. At least that's what the description indicates. But I think it's worth investigating to know for sure.



I guess the only way to really know is to e-mail them. Care to help me outline a few bases to touch upon?

----------


## davef

I think something is seriously wrong with nat geno if it's giving 16 percent Ashkenazi to Germans. That's insane. Really insane.

----------


## Salento

> I think something is seriously wrong with nat geno if it's giving 16 percent Ashkenazi to Germans. That's insane. Really insane.


I think is correct! Not only that is kind of Ironic!

----------


## Jovialis

> I personally don't pay too much attention to it. If you know your ancestry, you don't need it. If you're mixed, it can't tell you anything very specific. The only thing it can do is confirm you are who you thought you are, and you're similar to the people in your region...


If this was the case, wouldn't it say I'm 100% Italian/southern European?

I'm pretty sure the other components (i.e. Northwestern; Eastern, etc.) indicate other admixture acquired over time, more related to recent outside populations. The description already indicates subsuming the prehistoric populations from the early northern populations pushing south, and the early farmers into the Italian component. It would be redundant to include it in one component, and then represent it differently as another separate component.

Nevertheless, I would like for this to be totally verified by NG.

----------


## davef

I find more value in tests that scan your relatedness to prehistoric populations like Anatolian farmer, European hunter gatherer, Caucasian hunter gatherer and steppe... because thats how every European genome or even near eastern genome breaks down into. That's all we are. That's it. It's that simple.

----------


## Jovialis

> I find more value in tests that scan your relatedness to prehistoric populations like Anatolian farmer, European hunter gatherer, Caucasian hunter gatherer and steppe... because thats how every European genome or even near eastern genome breaks down into. That's all we are. That's it. It's that simple.


It *is* in fact scanning for that, just take a look at my posts about the rationale for the breakdowns.




> The new test also scans more than 250,000 (autosomal) markers from across your entire genome that were inherited from both your mother and father, revealing insights into those ancestors who are not on a strictly maternal or paternal line.
> 
> https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/faq/participation-testing-results/


Why do you *all of the sudden* minimize the value of the national geographic test? Did you read my posts? Angela said that the results would be about the same with 23andme, so I guess that's not a good test in your opinion either. FamlytreeDNA has a feature with the prehistoric populations, but they break down the regional populations in the same way of the other two tests. So it makes *no difference* to what we are discussing anyway. Which is "_what is Italian, who is Italian, and why do DNA testing companies break it down they way they do?"_

Breaking things down simply into 4 prehistoric ancestral components would make the results even broader. How are you going to designate Central Italian; South Italian; North Italian; or simply _Italian_, for that matter based on a test that presents only broad ancient populations?

Because that's what we're talking about in the first place, right?
 :Thinking: 

Let's stay on topic.

----------


## Jovialis

> I think is correct! Not only that is kind of Ironic!


It also makes sense as to why the Nazis would be compelled to accept individuals of 1/8 Jewish heritage as _Deutschblütiger.

_


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...919.E2.80.9333The Jewish communities of the cities of Mainz, Speyer, and Worms formed the league of ShUM-cities which became the center of Jewish life during Medieval times (after the first letters of the Hebrew names: Shin for Schpira (Spira), Waw for Warmaisa and Mem for Mainz. The _Takkanot Shum_ (Hebrew: תקנות שו"ם‎‎ "Enactments of ShU"M") were a set of decrees formulated and agreed upon over a period of decades by their Jewish community leaders. The official website for the city of Mainz states:One of the most glorious epochs in Mainz's long history was the period from the beginning of the 900s and evidently much earlier. Following the barbaric Dark Ages, a relatively safe and enlightened Carolingian period brought peace and prosperity to Mainz and much of central–western Europe.
> For the next 400 years, Mainz attracted many Jews as trade flourished. The greatest Jewish teachers and rabbis flocked to the Rhine. Their teachings, dialogues, decisions, and influence propelled Mainz and neighboring towns along the Rhine into world-wide prominence. Their fame spread, rivaling that of other post-Diaspora cities such as Baghdad. Western European – Ashkenazic or Germanic – Judaism became centered in Mainz, breaking free of the Babylonian traditions. A Yeshiva was founded in the 10th century by Gershom ben Judah.[3]Historian John Man describes Mainz as "the capital of European Jewry", noting that Gershom ben Judah "was the first to bring copies of the Talmud to Western Europe" and that his directives "helped Jews adapt to European practices."[18]:27–28Gershom's school attracted Jews from all over Europe, including the famous biblical scholar Rashi;[19] and "in the mid-14th century, it had the largest Jewish community in Europe: some 6,000."[20] "In essence," states the City of Mainz web site, "this was a golden age as area bishops protected the Jews resulting in increased trade and prosperity."[3]





> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddis...rs_of_speakers
> 
> On the eve of World War II, there were 11 to 13 million Yiddish speakers.[8]The Holocaust, however, led to a dramatic, sudden decline in the use of Yiddish, as the extensive Jewish communities, both secular and religious, that used Yiddish in their day-to-day life, were largely destroyed. Around five million of those killed — 85 percent of the Jews who died in the Holocaust — were speakers of Yiddish.[9]Although millions of Yiddish speakers survived the war (including nearly all Yiddish speakers in the Americas), further assimilation in countries such as the United States and the Soviet Union, along with the strictly monolingual stance of the Zionistmovement, led to a decline in the use of Eastern Yiddish. However, the number of speakers within the widely dispersed Orthodox (mainly Hasidic) communities is now increasing. Although used in various countries, Yiddish has attained official recognition as a minority language only in Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Netherlands[28]and Sweden.


This is all I will say about this, as it is pertinent to the question of the integrity of the test. But if some want to discuss this, take it to this thread.

Let's stay on topic about Italian Genetics here.

----------


## davef

> It *is* in fact scanning for that, just take a look at my posts about the rationale for the breakdowns.
> Why do you *all of the sudden* minimize the value of the national geographic test? Did you read my posts? Angela said that the results would be about the same with 23andme, so I guess that's not a good test in your opinion either. FamlytreeDNA has a feature with the prehistoric populations, but they break down the regional populations in the same way of the other two tests. So it makes *no difference* to what we are discussing anyway. Which is "_what is Italian, who is Italian, and why do DNA testing companies break it down they way they do?"_
> Breaking things down simply into 4 prehistoric ancestral components would make the results even broader. How are you going to designate Central Italian; South Italian; North Italian; or simply _Italian_, for that matter based on a test that presents only broad ancient populations?
> Because that's what we're talking about in the first place, right?
> 
> Let's stay on topic.


Keep calm :)! I did read your posts and was still somewhat confused about national genographic assigning the average Joe German such a high Jewish percentage.
Also me finding more value in determining your prehistoric percentages is a personal thing and has nothing to do with the quality of national geno. I find more value in such a test more than any other test out there such as 23 and me. 
We can go back to discussing Italian genetics, but I just wanted to point a few things out:

----------


## Jovialis

> Some of that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would some people be getting such relatively high Jewish Diaspora scores?
> 
> Clearly, their centrum for Italy is southern Italy if Tuscans score only 67% "Italian". It's basically the same in 23andme, where I score in the high 50s, which makes sense as I always scored between Bergamo and Florentines in the old dodecad calculators, and with the Piemonte sample when that's available (Piemonte, Liguria, Emilia, actually, given where the sample was collected). I thought in that case it was because their reference population for Italians includes their own customers, who are almost all Italian-Americans, and thus almost by definition southern Italians.
> 
> I think perhaps in the case of this company they are including almost all of France in the northwestern centrum, so a lot of northern Italy is going to be subsumed in that? That is certainly not the way I would have done it. There's nothing particularly "northwestern" about southwestern France, as we know from samples taken there, or southeastern France I have no doubt, as I think we would see if we had a research sample from there. 
> 
> So much of this kind of analysis is based on the assumptions and sometimes even the prejudices of the creators of these tests. Obviously, Spencer Wells thinks the French are all predominantly northwestern (which they are not, as the results from Gascony tell us), as are the Norwegians and Swedes, and the people of the British Isles, and "real" Italians are southern Italians. If he had a Northwestern category based on the British Isles, and a Northern category for northern Germany and Scandinavia, and a Northeastern category, and an "Italian" category based on Tuscans, and an Iberian category, and maybe a Greek one, the percentages would all shift. 
> 
> I personally don't pay too much attention to it. If you know your ancestry, you don't need it. If you're mixed, it can't tell you anything very specific. The only thing it can do is confirm you are who you thought you are, and you're similar to the people in your region...





> Created and led by project director Dr. Spencer Wells from 2005 to 2015, field researchers at 11 regional centers *around the world* collect DNA samples from*indigenous** populations*.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genographic_Project


National Geographic doesn't base it's centrum for Italians, on just Italian-Americans. It compares samples from Italians in Italy. Why would it? And why would they hold other populations to a different standard, that would probably most like be far less in participation? (i.e. Amerindian (mexico), Bougainville, High Land Peruvian, Khoi and San peoples, native population of Madagascar, native to the island of Vanuatu)

How would they deduce those components based on just consumer participation?




> This reference population is based on samples collected from Italians native to Tuscany.*
> https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations/





> Keep calm :)!




I am calm. I'm responding to legitimate questions, and asking legitimate questions too.




> Keep calm :)! I did read your posts and was still somewhat confused about national genographic assigning the average Joe German such a high Jewish percentage.





> Also me finding more value in determining your prehistoric percentages is a personal thing and *has nothing to do with the quality of national geno.* I find more value in such a test more than any other test out there such as 23 and me. 
> We can go back to discussing Italian genetics, but I just wanted to point a few things out:





> *I think something is seriously wrong with nat geno* if it's giving 16 percent Ashkenazi to Germans. That's insane. Really insane.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post518099

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE]


> I made a post about this, the history of the Jewish expulsion from Italy to those countries would account for those percentages I think.
> 
> 
> 
> https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/
> https://genographic.nationalgeograph...e-populations/


I don't see how there's any way that some Jews expelled from southern Italy could contribute enough to Germans to make them 16% Ashkenazi, plus all the other groups which show it. By that time the laws against intermarriage between the two religions were Draconian, and that wasn't just on the Christian side. A Jew who married outside his or her religion was considered dead. Families were still sitting shiva for such people when I was in university. It was also just extremely dangerous, even for a Christian woman who converted and married a Christian, because they were never really accepted, as all the auto da fes of Conversos in Spain shows. For a man, in addition to becoming part of a persecuted, despised minority, he would have had to endure circumcision as an adult. It may have happened in individual cases, but I just don't think it would have happened to that degree. In addition, to the best of my recollection, most of the Jews expelled from Italy went to Ottoman lands and/or North Africa.

IBD sharing tests tell the same tale. No Italian group has any IBD sharing with Jews, certainly not within the last 1000 or so years. The IBD sharing with Germans/French is similarly just not there. The only at all significant sharing is with Poles/Russians, which makes sense given the history of those countries. Anyway, while this isn't about the Ashkenazim, I think these percentages point out a big flaw in the Nat Geo algorithm. Of course, every commercial company, imo, has flaws. This type of thing just isn't easy to do.




> The older descriptions for the Tuscan reference population explains that the Lombards contributed to increasing Northern European ancestry in the 6th-8th centuries. This ancestry would be shared with people in Northern Europe. Lydia Ramsey is Scandinavian, so if you look at how they break down her ancestry. It makes sense as to why Northern Italians have an increase of those components. Thus that would account for the increase to 9% Northwestern, and 12% Eastern Europe components, via Lombards, in Tuscans.


]

Yes, I agree that the Lombards had a disproportional effect on Italy north of Rome (i.e. the Italian cline), but it's not only the Lombards. (Also, if the Lombard yDna is indeed majority I1 and R1b U-106, as some have speculated, the amount of actual "Lombard" autsosomal dna may not be very large.) It's also the Celts to some degree and the Liguri and Italics and Veneti as well. 




> No they don't, they only consider Northern France to be Northwestern European, a few other countries. The map is misleading; here's the description.


Well, that's good to know. It would be really bad if they were ignoring the Gascony sample, which is extremely low in "steppe" ancestry, and much more like the Basques or northern Spaniards than like the people of Brittany or Normandy, for example. They should really adjust the map so as not to mislead people. 







> I'm pretty sure these are based on historic populations, not just sampling from Southern Italians. It includes migrates from the north pushing southward. At least that's what the description indicates. But I think it's worth investigating to know for sure.


All any of these commercial companies are using is modern dna. In the case of Italy there really isn't even any ancient dna to use, other than Oetzi and Remedello, which are from roughly the same period and from far northern Italy. We have no Lombard dna from after the fall of Rome, or Gallic dna from the first millennium BC, or Greek/Italian dna from Naples or Calabria or Sicily from the first millennium BC either. What these companies are doing is what the creators of the gedmatch programs attempt to do, which is to look for genetic clusters. However, they're "modern" genetic clusters, the product of all the migrations that went before, and can be used to intuit specific historic migrations very imperfectly. 




> I guess the only way to really know is to e-mail them. Care to help me outline a few bases to touch upon?


Sure, no problem, although it will be difficult for me to be more specific than I have been given that I never took their test.

I do understand your frustration about all of this, but to some extent, in terms of genetics, ethnicity is a construct that is time dependent. Was Oetzi, were the people of Remedello "Italian" yet? When was the moment in history we're going to use? Will we use, when we get the ancient dna, the end of the Bronze Age, or perhaps the first millennium BC.? That's when Ralph and Coop found the IBD sharing between "Italians" and other groups to largely end, except for a pulse from the Balkans. Were the Celt-Ligures of the first millennium BC "Italian"? How about the probably "mixed" inhabitants of the city-states of Magna Graecia? When Julius crossed the Rubicon, he was crossing into "Italia" according to their maps, yet how different were the Romans of Lazio during the Republic from the people in the Po plain? How different were they from the southerners of that time? We just don't know yet. 

As to something you wrote in another post, National Geographic may not do what 23andme does, and use their own customer base, and therefore Italian-Americans as their reference population. However, they obviously are using southern Italian samples from somewhere. That would be a good question to ask, btw. Which southern Italian samples are they using, from where and collected by whom?

I think it's pretty clear that's where their centrum for "Italian" is located. It's less clear to me that this is a better choice than, say, Tuscany, or Umbria, but as I said these are subjective decisions to some degree. 

Apropos of all this and as a matter of serendipity, Razib Khan has posted about why the results from different commercial companies vary so much. I'm going to start a thread for it. Here it is:
https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/08/29/why-...-vary-so-much/

----------


## Jovialis

@ Angela

I came to a realization. In regards to the NG test, I think you would score very high with the component known as West Mediterranean, which is represented as Sardinia and Corsica on the map; but is also an indigenous component to mainland Italians. It's also shared by the southern French, and Iberians. In addition to the Italy/Southern European component; Western Mediterranean is an Italian component within and of itself. Italy/southern European is more represented by Southern Italy. I recall from another post you made, that you said you share DNA with Iberians on 23andme. I believe the West Med component is the population that 23andme is identifying. It overlaps between the area stretching from Iberia, through southern France, all the way to North West & Central Italy. 

Iberians themselves, according to NG, also have another component that's call Southwestern European; which is ubiquitous to Spain and Portugal. The Southern French would probably score high with West Mediterranean as well.





Sorry for the crappy screen cap, it's hard to find the descriptions for this version.

----------


## Salento

As a Reference: geno2 Helix
Southwestern Europe:
Interestingly, Southwestern Europe may have been the last refuge of the Neanderthals, due to its relatively sheltered position during the last glacial maximum. European hunter-gatherers also may have taken refuge there 20,000 years ago. Eventually, the first farmers arrived in the region from the eastern Mediterranean, and these are the ancestors of the modern-day inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula and neighboring regions. Connections across the Mediterranean, dating back to prehistory and down to the medieval period, connect Iberians with other coastal peoples, especially groups in Northern Africa. Some Southwestern Europeans also migrated across the Straits of Gibraltar, leading to a mutual genetic exchange. This cluster was also the pioneer Explorer, the group that expanded over 500 years ago to the Americas, as the Spanish and Portuguese established empires around the world.

----------


## Angela

> @ Angela
> 
> I came to a realization. In regards to the NG test, I think you would score very high with the component known as West Mediterranean, which is represented as Sardinia and Corsica on the map; but is also an indigenous component to mainland Italians. It's also shared by the southern French, and Iberians. In addition to the Italy/Southern European component; Western Mediterranean is an Italian component within and of itself. Italy/southern European is more represented by Southern Italy. I recall from another post you made, that you said you share DNA with Iberians on 23andme. I believe the West Med component is the population that 23andme is identifying. It overlaps between the area stretching from Iberia, through southern France, all the way to North West & Central Italy. 
> 
> Iberians themselves, according to NG, also have another component that's call Southwestern European; which is ubiquitous to Spain and Portugal. The Southern French would probably score high with West Mediterranean as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's hard for me to tell, as I haven't taken the test, but I do think I would probably score pretty high in Western Mediterranean, given that in the Geneplaza Ancient samples comparison, I score higher Western European farmer than Eastern European farmer. I do score some Eastern European farmer, however, so I would probably score some of Nat Geo's "Southern European". 

I didn't explain the 23andme situation clearly. I mostly share with Iberians only in the sense that we decided to share or look at each other's genomes. I share very few close matches with them in terms of IBD matching. I think it's because it has been so many thousands of years since Iberians and Italians were part of the same group that IBD sharing can't be picked up by 23andme's algorithm. Most of my close shares, or "relatives", of which, relatively speaking, I have very few compared to British Isles descent people, for example, or Ashkenazim, are from Liguria, Toscana, Emilia, Piemonte, and a few from Lombardia. I have almost no "relatives" from southern Italy. Strangely enough, I do have some Celtic fringe descent people, and even more with Danish or Scandinavian ancestry. I'm not sure that the latter are "legit". Sometimes the algorithms can mistake IBS for IBD. Either that, or the Celts in Liguria around 400 BC, and the Langobards in the very early Medieval period did leave a bit of a mark in my area.

----------


## Jovialis

Perhaps this would be a better representation of what the regional populations mean?

Just about, but not limited to the areas that they encompass.

----------


## Angela

> Perhaps this would be a better representation of what the regional populations mean?
> 
> Just about, but not limited to the areas that they encompass.


Does Nat Geo give Asia Minor to Greeks? Is that what you mean?

----------


## Jovialis

> Does Nat Geo give Asia Minor to Greeks? Is that what you mean?


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517505

There is some overlap according to the reference population that Nat Geo has.

But my question was if it was a better way of mapping out what the regional populations mean according to the test, verses the last one I made. I was going to post it on the thread I linked.

----------


## Salento

> Does Nat Geo give Asia Minor to Greeks? Is that what you mean?


Geno 2 Helix Reference Population for:

GREEKS:

Italy & Southern Europe: 44% - Eastern Europe: 32% - Asia Minor: 19% - Jewish Diaspora: 5%

TUSCANS (ITALY)

Italy & Southern Europe: 67% - Eastern Europe: 15% - Northwestern Europe: 9% - West Mediterranean: 9%

----------


## Angela

> Geno 2 Helix Reference Population for:
> 
> GREEKS:
> 
> Italy & Southern Europe: 44% - Eastern Europe: 32% - Asia Minor: 19% - Jewish Diaspora: 5%
> 
> TUSCANS (ITALY)
> 
> Italy & Southern Europe: 67% - Eastern Europe: 15% - Northwestern Europe: 9% - West Mediterranean: 9%


Tuscans are absolutely not 15% Eastern European in the traditional sense. There is virtually none of the ydna traditionally associated with "Eastern Europe", which is also true of northwestern Italy. I think what they're picking up there may be Langobard dna. Clearly, as I said, southern Italians are the centrum for Italy in this scheme, as they are in 23andme, where Tuscans also get somewhere in the high 60s for "Italian". 

The same is probably true for the Greeks, and that 32% is not just "Slavic" dna but every more steppe heavy ancestry that went intot he Balkans, Goths, Celts, earlier steppe groups, as well as specifically Slavs. 

In all tests, whether based on modern populations or ancient samples, I always come up about 70% "southern", and 30% "northern". I guess that's good in a way because it means that if you know how to interpret these tests in general terms they're all getting it just about right.

@Jovialis, yes, it's probably a better way.

----------


## Jovialis

> Tuscans are absolutely not 15% Eastern European in the traditional sense. There is virtually none of the ydna traditionally associated with "Eastern Europe", which is also true of northwestern Italy. I think what they're picking up there may be Langobard dna. Clearly, as I said, southern Italians are the centrum for Italy in this scheme, as they are in 23andme, where Tuscans also get somewhere in the high 60s for "Italian". 
> 
> The same is probably true for the Greeks, and that 32% is not just "Slavic" dna but every more steppe heavy ancestry that went intot he Balkans, Goths, Celts, earlier steppe groups, as well as specifically Slavs. 
> 
> In all tests, whether based on modern populations or ancient samples, I always come up about 70% "southern", and 30% "northern". I guess that's good in a way because it means that if you know how to interpret these tests in general terms they're all getting it just about right.
> 
> @Jovialis, yes, it's probably a better way.


I bet the Greeks from the Peloponnese and Islands would probably get a very high _Italy/Southern Europe_ score, like the South Italians. As we have learned over the past few months from the studies that have come out; there's strong similarities. Looking at the PCA, modern Greece covers a large area. The Greek reference population for Nat Geo is not representative of all modern Greeks. Perhaps the Greek reference population sample Nat Geo used is from an area in the that's towards the Northeast; hence Asia minor admixture.

But then again, Asia minor could mean Anatolian-like.  :Thinking:  I haven't seen a description anywhere for that particular component.

I hope Dr. Vilar still comes here to answer questions about the test. Clarifying the Greek sample would be a good one.

----------


## Salento

A Reference Population is just an Average of an Entire General Region.

----------


## Jovialis

Description for Eastern European:

_The Eastern and Central European component is predominantly associated with cultures from Poland, Germany, the former Austria-Hungarian Empire and the former Soviet republics of Belarus and Ukraine, and Western Russia. The same migration of hunter-gatherers who moved north to Finland and northern Russia are at the core of the earliest Eastern Europeans. Eventually, these groups met and mixed with the farmers who pushed in from southern Europe and the Near East, giving rise to the modern Eastern and Central Europeans. Thus this part of your ancestry has deep ties with and influences from multiple sources. They are a combination of Middle Eastern farmer, early European hunters, and Central Asian nomads. Today, this component is seen across various Eurasian groups, with the highest percentage found in Polish, Czech, Slovaks, Russians, Hungarians, Ukranians, as well as some German, Austrian and Balkan populations.

_I think they may actually be in the process of re-working this component. I don't recall it saying, Eastern *and Central European*, originally. If that's the case, it makes a lot more sense for Tuscany being at 15%.  :Thinking:

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Geno 2 Helix Reference Population for:
> GREEKS:
> Italy & Southern Europe: 44% - Eastern Europe: 32% - Asia Minor: 19% - Jewish Diaspora: 5%
> TUSCANS (ITALY)
> Italy & Southern Europe: 67% - Eastern Europe: 15% - Northwestern Europe: 9% - West Mediterranean: 9%


Geno 2.0 Next Generation - Reference Populations


South Europe (* France is only partially southern European).

----------


## davef

Bulgaria gets only 8 percent South euro? Interesting

----------


## Salento

New NatGeo NG 2 Helix differs:

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Bulgaria gets only 8 percent South euro? Interesting



But it has 14% Asia Minor

All the reference populations
https://genographic.nationalgeograph...ions-next-gen/

----------


## Joey D

Is it odd that Romania would be almost triple Southern Europe compared to Bulgaria?

----------


## Jovialis

All those averages are from the old test. They were conducted differently from the new one; cheek swab, with a genotyping chip, different algorithm; from the FTDNA lab. Also they've updated the algorithm from the previous (non-helix) test recently; those reference populations are likely different. 

Nevertheless, all of those components still exist, but are found in different populations for the Helix test. For example, North Africa is still found in Senegalese; aisa minor found in Balkan populations. Jewish diaspora is in many groups. From results people have shared from the new test, I see they still have Arabia coming up in other populations as well. As well as traces of east African.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post507557

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517505

//

Finally found what the French reference population looks like for Helix. Interesting that they get zero Italy & southern Europe, but a whole lot of Southwestern Europe. I guess Italy and southern Europe is more exclusive to Italy and Greece, and the other areas the description says. But I guess it makes a lot of sense when you look at the PCA chart. Nevertheless, like with Greece, it is looking at France as a whole; not taking into account the disparities between regions.

EDIT:

I guess south western Euro has a much bigger range than I thought.






> *French (53% Northwestern Europe, 27% Southwestern Europe, 9% West Mediterranean, 5% Eastern Europe, 4% Jewish Diaspora, 2% North Africa)*
> 
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Helix-Results
> 
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post275316


//

This guy has 23andme results, as well as Helix; they look pretty close. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxUffZRs9W0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIlPWFirbdA


I asked a rep if they were going to post the new averages online, but she couldn't verify that information.

//

European Jewish from eastern Europe:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...no-2-0-Results

----------


## Pax Augusta

> All those averages are from the old test. They were conducted differently from the new one;


They are distinct.
All those average are from Geno 2.0 Next Generation, initiative of the National Geographic Society.

The new one, Helix, is a start up and does not represent Geno 2.0 Next Generation and neither some kind of update.

Helix has a partnership with National Geographic (and Mount Sinai, Exploragen...) for a co-branded initiative.

Helix is headquartered in the San Francisco Bay Area, Geno 2.0 Next Generation/National Geographic Society in Washington, DC.

----------


## Jovialis

> They are distinct.
> All those average are from Geno 2.0 Next Generation, initiative of the National Geographic Society.
> 
> The new one, Helix, is a start up and does not represent Geno 2.0 Next Generation and neither some kind of update.
> 
> Helix has a partnership with National Geographic (and Mount Sinai, Exploragen...) for a co-branded initiative.
> 
> Helix is headquartered in the San Francisco Bay Area, Geno 2.0 Next Generation/National Geographic Society in Washington, DC.


The results are processed by National Geographic, but they are sequenced by Helix in the Gentek labs, in San Diego. Helix just sequences the genome, but they are interpreted by national geographic.

The update I was referring to was for the older test that is genotyped by FTDNA. National Geographic works with both FTDNA and Helix, two separate companies, that analyze the data. They use different algorithms; FTDNA did in fact update their's in June, based on user threads I've seen.

Helix is a subsidiary of Illumina, and their platform is meant to transfer results to other apps they host (i.e. insitome)

Those regional populations are in fact coming from national geographic, reading the data provided by helix.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> The results are processed by National Geographic, but they are sequenced by Helix in the Gentek labs, in San Diego. Helix just sequences the genome, but they are interrupted by national geographic.
> 
> The update I was referring to was for the older test that is genotyped by FTDNA.



But they are two different projects. It's not so hard to understand. Helix can't be considered an update of Geno 2.0 Next Generation.




> Those regional populations are in fact coming from national geographic, reading the data provided by helix.


The regional populations depends on the Helix's project.

----------


## Jovialis

> But they are two different projects. It's not so hard to understand. Helix can't be considered an update of Geno 2.0 Next Generation.


I'm not saying it's an update. And I did in fact say they are two separate companies.

Please follow:

Helix sequences the DNA, and gives it to national geographic to interprets the results. Its the new test. New company

FTDNA labs genotypes the DNA, and gives it to national geographic to interprets the results. Its the old test. Furthermore, they updated their algorithm in June for that version.
*
"It's not so hard to understand."

*What's up with the condescending attitude?

Edit: Perhaps you misunderstood me, or I was not clear enough. Nevertheless, I hope the points above clarify what I'm saying.

----------


## Salento

At the moment Geno2 NG offers HELIX only to Americans. 
To the Rest of the World they offers the Classic test, now called INTERNATIONAL still processed by FTDNA, as a couple of months ago, at least.
Helix uses Sequencing.
FTDNA uses Genotyping.

----------


## Jovialis

> At the moment Geno2 NG offers HELIX only to Americans. 
> To the Rest of the World they offers the Classic test, now called INTERNATIONAL still processed by FTDNA, as a couple of months ago, at least.
> Helix uses Sequencing.
> FTDNA uses Genotyping.


As a subsidiary of Illumina (Helix), it has to be very legit, since that company also supplies machines to Labcorp and Quest Diagnostics. The same places that medical doctors send blood work to be done for their patience.




> https://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing...dt-development
> 
> NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News) – Illumina and Laboratory Corporation of America have signed a multi-year supply agreement for Illumina's next-gen sequencing instruments and microarray equipment, the companies said today.
> The deal gives LabCorp expanded rights to use Illumina's instruments to develop, validate, and market laboratory-developed tests to clinicians in the US and Canada.
> LabCorp will be able to purchase a broader range of Illumina's products to develop new diagnostic tools for genetic testing, oncology, transplant medicine, and forensics, in addition to other applications. Currently, LabCorp is using the technology to develop human leukocyte antigen tests, which it plans to introduce this year.
> "The Illumina next-generation sequencing platform gives LabCorp the flexibility to develop a wide range of molecular tests," Mark Brecher, LabCorp's chief medical officer, said in a statement. "The HLA typing assays we are developing on Illumina's family of NGS platforms will provide physicians with the ability to more accurately match bone marrow donors to recipients."
> LabCorp CEO David King said at last week's JP Morgan Healthcare Conference that the firm is planning on expanding its portfolio of genomics-based diagnostics and will continue to advance NGS-based diagnostics in 2014.
> The deal with LabCorp is the second this month between Illumina and one of the big clinical lab firms. Earlier in January it announced a multi-year supply deal with Quest Diagnostics, providing that firm with NGS technologies for the development of molecular diagnostics. Quest inked a similar deal with Life Technologies that was announced the same day.

----------


## Salento

> As a subsidiary of Illumina (Helix), it has to be very legit, since that company also supplies machines to Labcorp and Quest Diagnostics. The same places that medical doctors send blood work to be done for their patience.


Theoretically that's the last time a person would need to take a DNA test.
The Data is used over and over for all type of Genetic's Tests.
Too bad that the Customers Don't Have Access to the Raw Data; yet.

----------


## MOESAN

My impression is that these classifications has no mean either for ancient heritage or historical moves. just my opinion: 'eastern euro' is too extended of a bag, among others...

----------


## Jovialis

Perhaps some of the issues with the old test algorithm (FTDNA lab version) was that it was misidentifying ancient populations that are shared with some of those other groups from tens of thousands of years ago. Maybe it picked up clues that they places into the pre-determined categories for the old algorithm; which probably why they updated the software for the _International version_.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My impression is that these classifications has no mean either for ancient heritage or historical moves. just my opinion: 'eastern euro' is too extended of a bag, among others...


I couldn't agree more with you, Moesan.

----------


## Jovialis

I had e-mailed Dr. Miguel Vilar to come in, to clarify what the regional components mean. He's the head scientist of the Genographic Project since Spencer Wells left. He was also a co-author to papers like this



https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4



https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41614

https://www.linkedin.com/in/miguel-vilar-ab574874/



This was a little over a week ago, I would imagine he's a very busy guy. Nevertheless, I will follow up with him in a few days.

----------


## Jovialis

> Considering your background I think your results make sense, except that your Northeast and East European are a bit high for Italy. That kind of admixture would have normally come from the Goths, or perhaps to a lower extent from Albanians settling in Puglia. But with 23andMe I have never seen more than 0.5% of Eastern European in South Italy. The 4% of NW European could be Lombard or Frankish and that is in line with 23andMe averages for South Italy.


Here's a PM I'm sharing with Maciamo's permission, from when I asked him to help me understand my autosomal percentages from the National Geographic test.

----------


## Salento

> Here's a PM I'm sharing with Maciamo's permission, from when I asked him to help me understand my autosomal percentages from the National Geographic test.


The East Europe AC maybe reflect the massive Illyrian migration in Puglia 3500 Years ago.

----------


## Jovialis

@ Pax Augusta,

To answer your questions from the other thread:

Thanks for providing the information for the HGDP sample. But where did it say it was towards south Tuscany towards Lazio? I was looking for it, but couldn't find the information for the location specifically.

Also, for TSI I was referring to the location of Citta X, which can't be determined due to them intentionally hiding it.

----------


## Jovialis

> The East Europe AC maybe reflect the Illyrian migration in Puglia 3500 Years ago.


That's what I was thinking, when I initially saw it in addition to the Northeastern admixture in my results. Perhaps its from the Iapygians.

But I think the north eastern could be from Normans, or Goths (as Maciamo said). Especially since it would be more recent.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> @ Pax Augusta,
> To answer your questions from the other thread:
> Thanks for providing the information for the HGDP sample. But where did it say it was towards south Tuscany towards Lazio?


From the Ceph coordinates that lead to the province of Grosseto.


http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php






> Also, I was referring to the location of Citta X, which can't be determined due to them intentionally hiding it.



Of course I'm aware of that. By searching I found both the time when that sample was collected and the area of ​​provenance. Of course I could not get a confirmation because of privacy laws they are hiding the exact location.

----------


## Jovialis

> From the Ceph coordinates that bring to the province of Grosseto.
> 
> http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I'm aware of that. By searching I found both the time when that sample was collected and the area of ​​provenance. Of course I could not get a confirmation because of privacy laws they are hiding the exact location.


I see thanks for the clarification.

I noticed before you commented on the sample size. Is there a difference in larger samples vs smaller samples, when determining averages?

Edit:

Also, in regards to the flawed 2012 study, would you say it's at least reliable for southern Italian populations?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I see thanks for the clarification.
> I noticed before you commented on the sample size. Is there a difference in larger samples vs smaller samples, when determining averages?


In theory no. But bigger is a sample and more outliers can have. And the problem with TSI is that they often do not use the whole sample, but only sub-sets.



> Also, in regards to the flawed 2012 study, would you say it's at least reliable for southern Italian populations?


Least reliable? 


The most reliable is Fiorito 2015 (but he used mostly western Italians except Ferrara). And then Sazzini 2016 (he covered also eastern Italian regions but it's less good than Fiorito's paper in my opinion). 

Fiorito 2015
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ito-et-al-2015

Sazzini 2016
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...lian-peninsula

And then specifically on southern Italians there is the Sarno's paper.

----------


## Jovialis

> Least reliable?


Sorry, English is kind of weird like that. I didn't mean least reliable. I meant to say, is it reliable.

"At least" is an expression, it means, _if nothing else_. This is something I need to take more consideration with.

To put it more clearly, this is what I meant to say:

Would the 2012 chart be reliable for where the southerners are placed

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Sorry, English is kind of weird like that. I didn't meant least reliable. I meant to say, is it reliable.
> 
> "At least" is an expression, it means, _if nothing else_.
> 
> To put it more clearly, this is what I meant to say:
> 
> Would the 2012 chart be reliable for where the southerners are placed


Fiorito.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ito-et-al-2015

----------


## Jovialis

> Fiorito.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ito-et-al-2015


Thank you,

But there appears to be an error with the links.

I believe this is the study, as well:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070887/

----------


## Salento

"Almeno" in Inglese parlato:
At Lest / At Minimum

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Thank you,
> 
> But there appears to be an error with the links.
> 
> I believe this is the study, as well:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070887/


Yes, that's the study.

----------


## Jovialis

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070887/


Looks like they only took samples from a few select regions. I wish they would attempt to collect samples from all of them. Nevertheless, even that would be very problematic.

As you said in the other thread about the Peloponnese, in regards to the Sicilians; there was re-colonization in some areas. I mentioned a many of times on other threads, my dad's town in Puglia was re-colonized as well in the 1200s. Lots of areas were de-populated and abandoned previously. So we don't even know where they could of came from before that. I also wonder how much feudalism in the South effected the gene pool. There was low-mobility between people, and the average peasant spent most of their lives within the confines of the city walls. It was usually dangerous to venture out, due to banditry, and vagabonds. Making towns essentially like islands, probably causing genetic drift. Which is why I usually take exception to generalization of the genetic history of the South. Even within Puglia, within the province Bari, there's different history, culture, and unique dialects that are exclusive to single towns. I even see some physiological differences between my mother's family, and my father's family; and they're both from the same province, but different towns. In addition to that, the Griko, and Arbëreshë influence on certain parts of the south. Ultimately, I think it really comes down to the town people are from, rather than broader geographic regions; at least when it comes to the South. I think this also helps to explain the clannish mentality southerners are known for. But despite these differences, there's a large degree of homogeneity among the southerners, as we see from the PCAs.

----------


## Jovialis

> From the Ceph coordinates that lead to the province of Grosseto.
> 
> 
> http://www.cephb.fr/hgdp/main.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...574/figure/F1/





These are the locations of the other points on the map.

EDIT:

I see that this is at least three years old, and do not include some of the newly discovered ancient people like the Caucasus Hunter-gatherers




> http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/f...ted-by-ice-age
> 
> *Populations of hunter-gatherers weathered Ice Age in apparent isolation in Caucasus mountain region for millennia, later mixing with other ancestral populations, from which emerged the Yamnaya culture that would bring this Caucasus hunter-gatherer lineage to Western Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> *
> This Caucasus pocket is the fourth major strand of ancient European ancestry, one that we were unaware of until now
> Andrea ManicaThe first sequencing of ancient genomes extracted from human remains that date back to the Late Upper Palaeolithic period over 13,000 years ago has revealed a previously unknown “fourth strand” of ancient European ancestry.
> ...




*​*https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

----------


## Jovialis

Here's Dr. Migul Vilar's response after I followed up with him earlier today.

----------


## Sile

early iron age Italy
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...b-e047aa080cd4

Since early iron age and as far back as late bronze-age, Oderzo, Udine and Trieste where illyrian cities, then the Udine marked in this paper must be an Illyrian and Venetic mix of Ydna

----------


## Pratt

This paper was pretty good 

*Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata*

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666984/

----------


## Angela

> This paper was pretty good 
> 
> *Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata*
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3666984/


For those who aren't aware of it, this paper is discussed here as well as in various other threads:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=Boattini+2013
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=Boattini+2013
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=Boattini+2013
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...=Boattini+2013

Their 2014 paper, heavier on southern Italian ancestry, is discussed here.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Boattini-et-al

----------

