# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

## Goga

Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.

I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.

If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.

So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were: 

mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.

What are your thoughts about these folks?

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## Taranis

> Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.


It is true that people in Europe don't speak Iranic languages today, with possible exception of the Ossetians in the Caucasus (in fact, Ossetian is the last remaining survivor of the Scythian languages). However, I do not think that the Ossetians, with their very small population, are genetically representative of the ancient Scythians/Sarmatians. You have to consider that for a while (well, actually, many centuries!), large swathes of eastern Europe (basically all of southern Ukraine) was inhabited by Iranic tribes. There were even Iranic tribes in the eastern portions of the Pannonian basin (the Iazyges).

In my opinion, what seems likely is that most of these Sarmatians were absorbed by the Slavic peoples. This is also backed up linguistically as there are Iranic loans into Proto-Slavic. Regarding the genetic aspects, without a doubt they would have been major carriers of Haplogroup R1a. Considering the geographic area, I2a2 is also possible (not I2a1, for obvious reasons), but considering that the Haplogroup is probably native to Eastern Europe (well, at least, _likely native since Neolithic times_), I don't think it would be originally Scythian.

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## Goga

Yes, but I think Scythians/Sarmatians had very much J2a too. Look at Bulgaria. Many Bulgarians (like Ukrainians) think they are descendants of these Scytho-Sarmartians. And there's 20% of J2a in Bulgaria.

Many Iranic folks in Central Asia, like Tajiks from Tajikistan have very much R1a, R2a and J2a (West ASIAN) but not so much I2a-something.
Although the have much more R1a, maybe even much more than 50%. In some areas like around their capital Dushanbe, J2a and R2a are VERY dominant too.

So I truly believe that R1a (+R2a) and West ASIAN J2a were dominant in proto-Iranic tribes.

*So maybe is J2a in Eastern European not from the Neolithic farmers but from Aryan tribes from West Asia.*


Thank you for your reply.

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## Goga



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## Milovan

I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


The non-slavic scytho-sarmatian theory of bulgarians I believe to be 100% false. This comes from bulgarians who hate turks who do not want to admit the original bulgar tribe was of turkic origin. Either way bulgarians do have some scythian and sarmatian blood that comes from both the slavic and turkic components, as both slavs and turkic peoples all have partial scytho-sarmatian ancestry.

As for the Ossettes (Alani as they call themselves) they have absorbed much caucasus blood and traditions over time due to their location. Jaszones of hungary, the original serbs and croats (the tribes they take their names from) were also Alan tribes (Osprey publishing is a good source for this as it has been later quoted by almost all later sources). The polish also claim sarmatian ancestry, just look up "sarmatism".

As for a genetic connection to the medes I don't know. Scythians did cross the caucasus at one point warring with cimmerians, I think medes were a part of that story as well but I can't remember. I look forward to whatever you come up with though, I have a feeling it will be interesting.

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## Goga

> I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


Ok. Thank you for your input!

But how do you explaine to me that Bulgarians have more J2a than R1a?

I think that Scytho-Sarmatians in Europe mixed with the native (non IE) folks of Europe, while Scytho-Sarmatians in Central Asia mixed with the native Central Asians, while Iranic tribes from West Asia remained in West Asia and mixed with other (non-Iranic) West Asians, mostly folks from the Caucasus (Hurrians).

That's how they grew apart. Every Iranic tribe got their own separate family but they all had the same roots and came from West Asia.

Northeast European and West Asian autosomal components are very close to each other.

But Iranic (ARYAN) tribes of West Asia stayed very close to their roots and the culture of their ancestors. They preserved their Aryan language and their 'Iranic' culture.

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## Goga

According to DODECAD Northeast European autosomal component is closer to the West Asian component than to the Southwest European component. So the North European and West Asian are the closest components to each other.

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## Goga

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/...s-on-west.html


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FFgv5Ekbf5...s/s1600/nj.png

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## Asturrulumbo

I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures of the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.

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## Milovan

Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.

that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about. 


why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.

you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline

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## Milovan

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

autosomal test for Kurds

now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png

what says "east european" is obviously R1a
"west european" is R1b
I already explained "west asian" as G caucasus and "southwest asian" as semitic J
"mediteranean" equates to hap I

who said that this equates to that etc? me, it's my theory
I could be wrong but my research or rather me studying the research of others brings me to this conclusion



Asturrulumbo, as far as ossetian folklore I have noticed the same, it is nart sagas like the rest of the caucusus. scholars claim it does have ancient iranian influence but that the bulk of it is indigenous to the caucusus. as for their looks they look exactly like other caucasians and are low in R1a, I wait for autosomal info on them as I expect them to be just like most of the caucasus but with more of an east euro component then their neighbors.

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## Milovan

Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png

what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european

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## Taranis

> I believe the purest scythian blood is in baltic and east slavic countries (lithuania, russia, belarus etc). Look at autosomal dodecad charts, you'll see why I say this. I believe scythians and sarmatians were mostly R1a with a small amount of R1b. I do not believe they originally had any J, G or I in them at all. Compare y-dna with autosomal and you'll see where I get my ideas from.


Lithuania is historically very unlikely, primarily because Scythian tribes never moved this far north. Baltic tribes such as the Galindians and Sudovians inhabited the Baltic area since at least the 2nd century AD. I think that based on the historic distribution, the Scythians would have left their biggest marks in Ukraine and southern Russia.

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## Sile

Scythians where always said to be Hunnic peoples , some say modern hungarians. I think taransis is correct 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians

besides the area is heavily infestated with N1c1

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## Goga

> Goga I did some digging for you in connection to scythians/sarmatians and the medes.
> Osprey men at arms series (miltary history books) is the source, from 2 books- the sarmatians 600 bc- ad 450, it states AD 73 Alans raid parthia, media and defeat armenian king tiridates, AD 135 Alans raid media and armenia, but are repulsed from capadoccia by the roman governor arrian. 2nd book the scythians 700-300 bc- it states- early 7th century bc cimmerian and scythian conquest of urartu, scythian activity in the middle east recorded in assyrian texts, 670's bc scythian king partatua fights assyria, marries daughter of assyrian ruler esarhaddon, mid 7th century bc king madyes leads scythian expedition to borders of egypt, 652-626 bc period of scythian influence in media, 612 bc medes and scythians capture nineveh and destroy assyrian empire, late 7th century bc medes drive scythians north of caucasus into north pontic area, 310-309 bc scythians defeat caucasians at thatis river.
> that is all the mentions of scythians and sarmatians in or south of the caucusus until the ossetians went in to the north caucusus.
> 
> that oughtta give you plenty to theorize about. 
> 
> 
> why do bulgarians have a lot of J2? they are in the balkans and absorbed many balkan peoples like thracians and others. neolithic farmers and phoenicians brought a lot of J into the balkans as well as other haplogroups.
> 
> you are looking at the wrong dodecad info, look at the admixture charts. they are more specific then what you posted. yes the entire middle east has some caucusus blood, you will see it in those admixture charts I speak of as "west asian" I believe it corresponds to y-dna hap G as it is highest in georgians and the caucusus. i believe hap J is "southwest asian" on dodecad charts, which is highest in saudi's and would be arab/semite bloodline


Thank you for you researchers about the Medes. And you might be right about the Bulgarians being Balkan folks.

But their biggest haplogroups are J2 and I2a, both 20%!

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## Goga

> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png
> 
> autosomal test for Kurds
> 
> now autosomal charts that deal with many nations
> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnr...urasian_12.png
> 
> what says "east european" is obviously R1a
> "west european" is R1b
> ...


Long time I thought that J2 was somehow connected to the Semites too. But I think that I was wrong. And I think that you are wrong too. Georgians are 0.5% Southwest Asian, while they have 24.5% J2, 12% J1 and 4.5 E. They're 72.3 % West Asian.

So J2 and the oldest sub clades of J1 are only and MUST be West Asian.

Southwest Asian in Kurds is mainly because of Semitic sub clades of J1 and E, mainly from the Assyrians (and their kinsmen), but also from the Greeks and Arabs.

E and some sub clades of J1 are Semitic!

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## Goga

> Goga you were talking about genetic distance I forgot to throw this in their for you
> its from dodecad v3 and corresponds to bopth charts I posted previously
> 
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON.../s1600/fst.png
> 
> what you were referring to as "north european" is old info, it has now been split into east and west european


Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!

J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.

Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.

As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only *0.044*. 

The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
The distance between East Europe and West Asia = *0.055*

The distance between West Europe and Mediterranean = 0.058
The distance between West Europe and West Asia = *0.048*

The closest people to West Asia are West Europeans. Distance between them = only 0.048, much less than between West European and Mediterranean which = 0.058.

North European is CLOSER to West Asia than to Mediterranean.

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## Goga

The *modern* Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!

Scythians were EurASIAN. They were semi-nomands and lived both in Europe AND Asia. Like the Medes, who were semi-nomands too. When they left Kurdistan it was free, but when they tried to enter it again, it was already populated/occupied by the Assryians. That's why they destroyed the Assyrians together with the Scythians.

I think they fought always together with the Scythians because they shared the same roots. They (Scythians and Medes) fought never against each other!

They fought together against the Assyrians, Greeks etc. The Medes and Scythians were always together (like the USA & the UK)....

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## Goga

> I know very little about DNA... But although ethnolinguistically, the Ossetes seem to be the best canditate for maintaining the Scythian "heritage", they have, as has been pointed out, been extremely influenced by their Caucasian neighbours over time, and it is thus quite probable that they retain little of what was the (ancient) Scythian DNA. For example, doing an etymological comparative of their mythological figures with the known Scythian deities, there seems to be little or no correspondence: On the contrary, they have correspondence with the mythological figures especially the other (especially North) Caucasian peoples.


Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).

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## Goga

And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.

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## spongetaro

> The *modern* Iranic folks share mainly 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a (with some J1 and R1b) ! This is a fact. Scythians were Iranic speakers too. And it's just impossible that they were only R1a. So I incline to think that they were J2 and R2a too!


There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.

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## spongetaro

> And about the Bulgarians, I don't think 20% of J2 in them is from the Turks. First of all J2a was never Turkic, it is from West Asia. Ancient Turks were from Central Asian. If Bulagrians mixed with the 'modern' Ottoman Turks, they would never get so much J2 from them.


J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.

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## Goga

> There were people in Iran before the Irano-Aryan migrations. J2a can predates the IE speakers.


Yes, I do also believe that J2a predates. Iranic and Caucasian peoples.

J2a is West Asian, and that's why I think that West Asian Iranic folks like Kurds and Ossetians have 2 kind of J2a in them. 1 kind from Caucasian people and 1 from kind Iranic people.
This starting point justifies my thoughts that proto-Iranic (Aryan) people were from West Asia.

But I do also believe that J2a was an integral part of the ancient Iranic people too. There is J2a in Iranic speaking people in Central Asia, like Tajikistan. And there is even very much J2a among Brahmin cast in India!

I believe it's a modern myth to think that Scythians (and ancient Iranic people) were only R1a people. They found some R1a remnants of these tribes, true. But this doesn't mean they couldn't be also something else. It doesn't make any sense that a nation has only 1 haplogroup.
This would mean that Central Asians like Tajiks are more Iranic than Kurds are. Like some Iranic folks in Central Asia think. This is absolutely nonsense!

So I looked further and discovered that all Iranic speaking people share 3 haplogroups with each other: R1a, R2a and J2a.This is how I did come to the conclusion that the Scythians might be R1a, J2a and R2a folks too.




> J2 may have been brought from Anatolia to Bulgaria during the Varna culture. The shape of Varna skulls are typically "Mediterranean" according to archeologists.


Thank you very much for this info. It's very interesting. But maybe those skulls were E or even I2a. Because Irano-Nordoid (Nordic-Iranian) and Caucasian skulls are 'bigger'/longer.

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## Goga

This autosomal dodecad graph is very recent and up to date. It's from June 4 *2011*!

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/...s-on-west.html

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## Knovas

> Like I said many people believe that Scythians were mainly R1a people. But it is just impossible that they were exclusively R1a. Nobody is 'pure' and nobody was ever pure!
> 
> J2 and J1 in Kurds is partly from the Caucasian people and partly from the Iranic people.
> 
> Some J1 and E are from the Semitic speaking peoples, like the Assyrians. And some of it is from the Greeks.
> 
> As you can see the distance between East and West Europe = only *0.044*. 
> 
> The distance between East Europe and Mediterranean = 0.056
> ...


You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.

What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.

I personally think Dienekes' should named Mediterranean in a different way (as for example Paleolithic European) to avoid this problem...very obvious while checking the distances. Or just separating Southern Europe in two diferentiated regions, the same as Northern Europe (Southwest and Southeast Europe).

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## Goga

> You are right Goga. However, note there is a problem because K=12 also says West Asian is closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is. The tree you are using belongs to K=10, where it's TRUE that Southern European was closer to Southwest Asian, but with the new interpretation of Southern Europe (Mediterranean), this has changed.
> 
> What you say it makes sense. Just wanted to point there's some discrepancy between both runs. West asian here is 0.054 from Southwest Asian, while the Mediterranean is 0.057...a bit far in comparison.


Yes. Maybe it's true. I do believe this is due big parts of the Southwest Asia component are from West Asia.
Southwest Asian components are J1, E and maybe T. J1 is from IJ . And the Archaic haplogorup *IJ* is from West Asia. From IJ came I1, I2, J1 and J2. Hg. J1 connects Southwest Asia and West Asia.

However the closest component to West Asia is West Europe. The distance between Soutwest Asian and West Asia is 0.054, while the distance between West Asian and West European is only 0.048. West Europeans are the closest folks to West Asia.

According to this the closest components to Mediterranean are East European and West Asian, both 0.056! West Asian is closer to Mediterranean than West European is (0.058).

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## Knovas

Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the components as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich components refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.

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## Goga

> Yes, that's a good point. I think Dienekes' always tries to diferentiate the componennts as much as possible, and checking the distances it's always clear wich componenets refer to Europe, the near east, Asia, etc. But the names can cause confusion, for this reason I don't like the Mediterranean one. If the component must keep united, I think Paleolithic European was a better name to make the interpretation easier.


I do agree with you. It's just a name. But Southwest Asian and Mediterranean components share hg. E together. Most Arabs (Semites) or Arabic speakers are dominant : Semitic *J1* and *E* ! Hg. E is both a Mediterranean and Soutwest Asian haplogroup, but it's origin is somewhere in Africa!

Origin of IJ is in West Asia
Origin of R is in Central Asian or maybe even West Asia too
Origin of E is in Afria

Btw. I think that hg. E has nothing to do with the Scythians / ancient Aryans (Iranic folks). But maybe I'm wrong.

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## Alan

First of all, it is out of question that Sarmartians-Scythians were from baltic area or belonged mainly to North European component. Their original homeland was between the Caspian and Aral See(Andronovo). This Region is high in West Asian and strong North European too. North East European peaks up in the baltic and has expanded later more south. It is delusional to believe that Baltic People or the "baltic Gene" has in anyway contact to the Scythians or Sarmatians. We only know about Scythians that they had much R1a* but don´t know this about Sarmatians. Even if Sarmatians are partly descend of Scythians still they were other People. Maybe the Sarmatians were more G than R1a*. Who knows?
The domination of what is today Ukraine was based on some Warriors which moved from East and controlled the former Cimmerian Regions. We can assume that todays Ukrainians and some South Russians have absorbed Scythian and Sarmatians but at the same time we know that during the Soviet time, many Slavs from further North were settled in Ukraine. Connecting Slavs to Scythians just because of much R1a* among them is as logical as saying the Italic tribes are up to 50% descend of Germanic tribes because of the high R1b* found among them. Both Iranic as well Slavic people belong to the Satem group of Indo Europeans and it is understandable that they share more similarities as to other Indo Europeans. However similarities don´t mean they were the same. 

About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aras See into the Steppes further North.

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## Knovas

Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.

The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.

Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.

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## Goga

> Georgians and Armenians have 4.5 - 6% of E, and Kurds 7-11%. Iran has also 4.5%.
> 
> The numbers are quite low, lower than Italy for example (11%). Spain is in the Middle with 7%, and Portugal on the top with 14%.
> 
> Haplogroup E is quite widespread, it has something to do in lots of populations. Just see the Eupedia spreadsheet. Actually the highest European frequencies can be found all around the Balkans.


Georgians are not the same as Armenians.

There's some portion of E in West Asian because of the Greeks. Part of West Asia belonged to the (East) Roman Empire. Even before that, Alexander the Great was in West Asia. Also Mitanni were allies of the the ancient Egypt for some time. Greeks loved Egyptians and imported the 'African' to Europe, while Mitanni & Kassites imported 'African' E to West Asia. Also the Jews attributed to this process very much too.

But E is still from Africa and it is an African lineage. Who am I to rob and deny the African influence in the Mediterranean, and and to the lesser extent Europe and Asia.

Every time when I hear hg. 'E' I will always accredit and merit that to the Africans. Doesn't matter for me how much it is in other parts of the world. I'm not a hypocrite...

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## Goga

> About the Scythian, Sarmatian-Alan presence in West Asia, well the first mentioning of Scythians in history was indeed from West Asia by Assyrians who called them "Ishkuza" They were present in Urartu, Mannea even before any mentioning of them in North. Interestingly a Greek historian wrote (I don´t know his name anymore) The Scythians moved over the Aral See into the Steppes further North.


True, the Assyrians (Akkadians) were annihilated by the Medes and Scythians. That was 612 BCE. Everybody is talking about a coalition between the Medes and Chaldeans, but I believe that Scythians helped their kinsmen very much.

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## Bodin

And who say Scythians and Sarmatians were same nation ? Herodotus say Saramatians are descendants of Scyths and Amazones. But do you believe Amazones egzisted ? Even Herodotus clearly separate Sarmatians and Scythians - by teritory , languague( he say it is spoiled Scythian wich only mean they both speacked IE -Iranian languague- in that times there wa not such big diference betwen IE languagues) , customs,...
I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while *Diodorus* ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as *Sarmathians -Solar Medes*.
All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups . 
And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds . 
Also it is quite posible that some of J2 in Balkans came with Thracians ( came from Asia Minor), Turks( Ottoman-Osmanli) , Neolithic farmers and Phoenicians and some with Sarmathian nations of Serbs , Croats and Bulgars . 
If somebody won to see why I think they are Sarmathian go to tread Sarmathians , Serbs , Croats and I2a2 and read my posts .There you will also find how most of I2a2 get were is it now.

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## Bodin

And yes some of Scythian tribes get to Baltic - Neuri ( mentioned by Herodotus like Scythian nation) , there is some evidence that sugest that Neuri are ancestors of today Balts ( river Nevra , few cities with simillar names , ... ). They could also be same with Venedi .

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## Bodin

Also I wasnt able to provide valid data about I2a2-Din in aeria around Caucasus where Sarmathians originaly dweled previous to they move to west( I allready posted data for Ossetians - north 32% of I2a2-Din and south 13% ). And now there it is :
Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Chuvash ( on Caucasus ) : R1b 12% , R1a 18% , I2a2 24% ,N1c 18% , E1b1b 6% , J 6% , G 18% 
Baskhirs R1b 47% , R1a 26% , I2a2 4% ,N1c 17% , others 10%

other : C , F* , N* , Q , R2
All of this nations are Turkic ( Altai ) speacking . And they could be conected with Sarmathians that stayed in Hunic empire - Roxolans (bright Alans ) . One part of Roxolans acording to some Roman sources took Hunic languague and way of life , and they were called Saraguri

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## Asturrulumbo

> Thank you very much for your input. But maybe the Scythians were North Caucasian folks too? And that their relatives - the Medes - lived in South Caucasus (- North Mesopotamia - Kurdistan).


I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):

_Scythians are in orange_

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## Goga

> I don't think the Scythians were "North Caucasians". They were very much culturally (and obviously also linguistically) Iranian. Besides, the Scythians occupied in Antiquity an infinitely larger space than the North Caucasus (unlike the Ossetes today):
> 
> _Scythians are in orange_


Yes, I know this map. But I'm talking about the OLDER Scythians!

this map is from *100* BCE, while the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East *700* BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.

Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).

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## Goga

> I would repeat it again because clearly nobody hiered me first dozen times Herodotus story do not hold water( I would not say nonsence out of respect toward Herodotus, but again there was not Amazones) , while *Diodorus* ofers reasonable story : during they rule in Asia ( 650-626 )Scythians moved part of Medians north of Caucasus and they are known as *Sarmathians -Solar Medes*.
> All of historians clearly separate Scythians and Sarmathians , aldo Sarmathians were some kind of vasals to Scythians . Later Sarmathians were the ones who conquered and destroyed "they cousins" Scythian state .
> Scythians were clearly R1a ( greater percent ) with significant N1c ( Yakuti who call themselves Sake had 80% of N1c ) , and some Q and maybe some other haplogroups . 
> And I do believe most of Slavs are descendants of Scythians - it is hard to believe one enormous population of R1a simply disapeared , and then in same place apeares another enormous population of R1a , and they dont have nothing in comon .
> As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .


Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.

Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.

Some people link Kassites to Scythians.

I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.

Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.

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## Goga

Were Kassites that live in the Mesopotamia *1700* - 1000? BCE related to or even the same as Scythians / Saka ? Notice that after them came Scythians. And people in the Mesopotamia started to write about Saka/'Ishkuza' and not Kassites. The name of the Kassites (Karanduniash) vanished from this region, while the name of the Scythians entered not much later after that.
The neo-Babylonian Empire of these Kassites was also called Karanduniash. '-niash' means land. So, land of the Karandu.

http://www.emmetsweeney.net/article-...scythians.html

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## GloomyGonzales

> As I previosly explained I believe Sarmathians were I2a2 -Din , and they descendants are Serbs and Croats , and other tribes that blended in Slavic populations . So the Medes were I2a2-Din , which is clearly represented in Kurds .


Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.

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## Asturrulumbo

> ...the Scythians I'm talking about were already in the Middle East *700* BCE!!! Or 600 years before this map. Maybe even before that.
> 
> Scythians I'm talking about lived together with the Medes. Parthians came much later and were Central Asian Iranic folks (maybe backmigration).


Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
"...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
-EIEC
(I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians

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## Goga

> Well, while the question of the origin and ethnogenesis of the Scythians is very much unsettled, the most widely accepted theory that their "urheimat" is around the land between the Caspian Sea and the Amu Darya. The East Iranian (ie Avestan, Scithian Pamir) homeland is probably also around there, possibly identifiable with the Yaz culture of the early Iron Age (1500-1100 BC):
> "...With respect to location, date and a settlement type which
> may represent early Iron Age farmer-chieftains, the Yaz culture
> has been regarded as a likely archaeological reflection of east
> Iranian society as depicted in the Avesta."
> -EIEC
> (I attached a picture of the location of the Yaz CUlture)
> So, going back to your initial comment, it seems doubtful that the Scythians were North Caucasian folk, not in 100 BC, not in 700 BC, not in 1300 BC... I find it more probable that the Ossetes were "scythianized" North Caucasians


Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point. 

But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH *West Asian DNA* in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...

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## Asturrulumbo

> Listen, thank you for your opinion and you have got a very interesting view of point. 
> 
> But the thing is that these Iranic people must be from somewhere. I don't think proto-Iranic or even proto-IE speakers were from Central Asia. And there is VERY MUCH *West Asian DNA* in Central Asia! Like hg. J2 of Y-DNA...


As I have said, my knowledge of DNA is very limited (at least in most cases), so in this occasion I can only contribute the discussion on the cultural sphere (which usually overlaps with the genealogical sphere...but only to a certain extent). And thus I think my humble contribution to this thread is complete... Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians.

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## Goga

> Unless you want my opinion on the ethno-cultural relations between the Medians and the Scithians/Sarmatians


Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!

What I do is just brainstorming and question everything. I do know nothing. I'm just a pilgrim lost in history who is in search for the true and what happened in the past. Every contribution and view of point from all over the world is a profit for the human race.
If you want to know the world better you must include opinions of folks from all over the world. The better way to find the true is to approach it from as many perceptions as possible! 

So be kind and write everything what you know about the Scythians, Medes, East Europeans and other people…

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## Asturrulumbo

But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".

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## Asturrulumbo

> Please. I'm very much interested in your knowledge!


Alright then..
Among linguists, Iranian languages are split into two main branches: the Western branch (Kurdish, *Median*, Parthian, Persian, etc.) and the Eastern branch (Bactrian, *Scythio-Sarmatian*, Pamiris, Pashto, etc.). Now then, Iranian Langs. as a whole are usually thought to have their origin in the Eurasian Steppe. I personally would point especially to the *Fedorovo* culture, a culture around Southern Siberia (c. 1500-1300 BCE). This culture lies within the broader *Andronovo* Horizon (c. 2300-800 BCE), from which also the Indo-Aryans probably were, albeit at a much earlier date. The Andronovo Horizon slowly spread to the south and west (see map).
Now then, from there, the East Iranians (such as Scythians) can probably be associated with the later phases of the Andronovo culture, as well as its western neighbour the *Srubna* Culture (c. 1700-1100 BCE) (see map). 
The West Iranians (such as the Medes) can probably be associated with the *West Iranian Buff Ware* (which appeared around 1100 BCE in the southwest Caspian coast, and then expanded towards the Zagros regions).
So this is what I think, from what I have read.

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## Bodin

> Sarmatians came from South Ural and they were Iranic-speaking people. Does it look like some I2a2-Din people from Balkans? Surely not. It's obvious that Sarmatians were predominantly R1a people.


Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians . If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic languague and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.

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## Bodin

> Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules.
> 
> Also, I read nowhere that the Medes came from north (Eastern Europe) and entered West Asia. Most historians do agree on that the Medes were native to West Asia or they came from Central Asia. But I do believe they were West Asian and just a continuation of Mitanni/Kassites. I've my own reasons for that.
> 
> Some people link Kassites to Scythians.
> 
> I do also believe that the very first original Medes were J2, R1a & R2a people. But later they mixed with I2a-something people who lived already in Kurdistan folks like Guti or came later like the Hittites or even the hypothetical so called 'Cimmerians'.
> 
> Also Scythians came NOT from the Baltics! Maybe they were there, but the Baltics was not their native homeland.


I also believe Medes are native to west Asia or somwhere betwen it and Central Asia , but I believe they were carryers of I2a2-Din that took refuge there during LGM . R1a was bringed by IE speackers together with languague - like Scythians and Persians . J2 is comed in Asia Minor and Caucasus during Neolithe from fertile crescent . 
You didnt understand me I didnt said Scythians comed FROM Baltic , I said they settled there later . So the Sarmathians are, in antiquity ( Tacitus ,... ) Baltic sea was called oceanus Saramathicus - Sarmathian Ocean .

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## GloomyGonzales

> Where did you find Sarmathians come from south Ural ? They came from Media as I explained and that is reason they speacked Iranian - like Medians, Scythians and Persians .


Wikipedia
The Sarmatians emerged in the 7th century BC in a region of the steppe to the east of the Don River and south of the Ural Mountains.

Prokhorovka kurgans associated with early Sarmatians are located in the Urals area in Russia.




> If they camed from south Ural they would speack Uralic language and have N1c predominant haplogroup . Where is your prove that Sarmathians were R1a , Scythians were R1a but not Sarmathians.


Maybe it would be a great opening for you but Sintashta-Petrovka-Arkaim culture is located in South Ural and nevertheless associated with R1a Arian people. 

By the way where did you get this weird idea that Sarmatians came from Media? The Sarmatian language is classified as Northeastern Iranian while the Median is Northwestern Iranian.

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## Bodin

Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says. 
Prokhorovka culture graves are from IV - II century BC , and that is after Sarmathians setled from Asia .
Yes Andronovo or Petrovka culture was R1a but it was mostly west Siberia , and partualy south Ural , but it was 2.500-1000 years BC , and it was probably were Scythians come from .

About languagues : Sarmathian was under influence of Scythian , and there is to litlle of it preserved to say was it closer to Scythian or Median .
About West Balkans archeological findings show Slavic presence only from VI to VII century , while findings since VII century ( arriving Serbs and Croats ) are much more simillar to Sarmathian findings in Moldova ( Ants ) and Banat ( Yazigi) .And I2a2- Din is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe ( even Neolithe) , same as R1b is to young to be in West Europe since Neolithe.

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## GloomyGonzales

> Read Diodorus he say that Scythians during they rule in Asia ( 650-624) taken parts of Medes north of Caucasus , and they are now Sarmathians- Solar Medes , like I already said up .That is egzactly VII century as Wikipedia says.


 
Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.

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## sparkey

> Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.


I think that I2a-Din is less mysterious than most make it out to be. It seems clearly to be an example of a haplogroup that expanded recently and quickly _within_ a population that picked it up while it was expanding itself. I'm not sure whether that's the Illyrians or the Slavs or somebody else, but I lean toward the Slavs based on current evidence. A connection with the Sarmatians is tenuous, mainly because there's no evidence that Haplogroup I spread to Asia at all until very recently. A remaining question is the Haplogroup I in Kurds, which we know too little about to contribute usefully to this discussion.

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## Kardu

As for haplogroup J2 in modern Bulgaria it might be attributed to the Colchian (Caucasian) presence in Balkans according to Pliny the Elder.
penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny3.html

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## Bodin

> Why should I believe in words of some Greek myth-writer? It's not serious. It's obvious that I2a2-Din people had nothing to do with Sarmatians even the idea itself that I2a2-Din people could be Northeastern Iranian speaking nomadic horse riders living in wagons and came from steppes to the East of the Don River looks incredibly weird.


OK you obviosly dont know what are you talking about - you just called father of critical history a "Greek myth writer ". Have you even read Diodorus ? 
And what is your idea , who was the I2a2-Din original bearers ?

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## Bodin

And no I2a2 is not Slavic because Slavs are mainly R1a -Scythian descendants , as I previosly explained all of I2a2 may be conected with Sarmathian movements , and please dont quote Kievan chronicles, because they are counterfited which is proven by science

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## Asturrulumbo

First of all, Diodorus was certainly not a myth writer. Having said that, I don't think at all that the Sarmatians come from the Medes. If linguistic evidence isn't enough, then archaeological evidence should be: It seems reasonably clear to me that their origins lie along with that of the Scythians, and there is no archaeological evidence of a crossing from Persia to the steppe at that time, nor would the Sarmatians' inherently nomadic traditions point that they came from a highly urbanized region such as Persia. Also, one should not rule out that the Sarmatians were merely a mixing of the indigenous Cimmerians with invading Scythian tribes...

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## Bodin

Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.

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## Bodin

And Cymerrians lived north of Black sea - where the Scythians lived later , and Sarmathians were north of Caucasus .

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## Goga

> Medes in VII century , and also the Persians were prety much nomadic , some of Persian tribes are nomadic even during wars with Greeks - Germaniji from Kerman province. There is clear arheological evidence that show diferences betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Sarmathian armor is same thing that Greeks call Medean suit - armor made of plates , only Medeans caried Persian robes over it.


Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?

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## Goga

> But wait! Now I remember a study, an aDNA study of the Bronze Age Andronovo Culture of Central Asia and Southern Siberia (whose bearers were probably, in the early stages of the culture, Proto-Indo-Iranian)... In which "nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans." It's called "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people".


"_the eastward migration_". Exactly this is what I'm talking about. These Andronovo Culture folks came from somewhere else. Many people thought that they came from Europe (because of the Kurgans and steppes), but in Central Asia (around the Andronovo Horizon) is more West Asian DNA, than the North European DNA.
Also ANI (Ancestral North Indian) is closer to West Asia than to North Europe.

Some Iranic folks from Central Asia migrated back into West Asia. The Parthians (and maybe the Medes like some people say) are a very good example of it. But personally I do really think that the Medes just stayed behind in West Asia (Zagros mountains / the Iranian plateau) when their kinsmen migrated into Central Asia and formed the Andronovo and other related cultures.

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## Goga

Btw, it has been widely accepted by the scholars that the Scythians, Sarmartians and maybe even the so called Cimmerians belonged to the nearby western neighbouring Iranic culture called the Srubna Culture, successor to the Yamna culture. So these people were not from the Andronovo horizon.

"_The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.The Srubna culture is succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians in the 1st millennium BC, and by Khazars and Kipchaks in the first millennium AD._"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture

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## Goga

This Srubna Culture was a successor to the Yamna Culture.

But in turn this Yamna Culture was heavily influenced by the folks from Caucasus (and West Asia), Maikop culture and other west ASIAN cultures and subcultures. Both cultures were practically the same!

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## Goga

The heart Andronovo horizon is pink, Srubna (Yamna) is on the westside.




Here is the map of '*OLD* *Europe*'

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## Bodin

> Which haplogroups did have the Medes according to you?


Well if I would have to gues :
yDNA
I2a2-Din about 70%
I2*+I2a* about 3%
J2 about 8%
R1a about 10%
G2a about 3%
E1b1b about 6% 
mthDNA
H about 50%
U about 20%
K about 10% 
I about 15%
X2 and W about 5%

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## Bodin

Yamna culture is proposed as Proto IE - where the R1a lived before parts moved to form Andronovo culture , and Srubna culture . Srubna culture is maybe protoCymmerian , but Scythians definetly come from east - Scythians lived from Black sea to Altay . 
There is clear difference betwen Scythian and Sarmathian artefacts , burrials , customs , ... I dont know how could they be same

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## Bodin

I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria

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## Goga

> I dont know scientists that consider Scythians and Sarmathians are descendants of Srubna culture , they just replaced it on that aeria


Yes, Scythians came from the Andronovo area, but my question is where from came the ancestors of these Scythians?
From the Iranian plateau or from the northern parts of Caucasus? If they were from Northern Caucasus, they would share the same ancestors as Srubna (Yamna) people.

I do also believe that when Scythians came and tried to replace the original Srubna folks (let call them the Cimmerians from now on), many so called Cimmerians fled to southern Caucasus and Northwest Asia (around Kurdistan) and many stayed in their home place and mixed with the Scythians.

Is it possible that the ancestors of the Sarmatians were the Scythians *AND* Cimmerians, the native population of Srubna culture. 

So that makes Sarmatians *native* to northern parts of the Caucasus, in & around the Srubna area.

I think I2a-din was part of the Srubna people, and not of the Iranic speaking people that were from the Iranian plateau. So I2a-din in Kurdistan is maybe from North Caucasus, from the Srubna culture people...

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## Bodin

I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .

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## Goga

> I dont think so because of simple fact that Saramathian culture was very diferent from Scythian and Cymmerian , to be they descendant . And only reasonable explanation of Saramathian origins in Historic litereature is that they are descendants of Medians . Cymmerians and Scythians are both mainly R1a because they lived in place where R1a is since forming - Yamna - Srubno -Andronovo . Sarmathians show some simmilarities with Masagetae - they to have female rullers ( quen Tomirida -Tamara ; ida is Greek sufix) , on same place where Masagets lived has formed Alan confederation ( Alanliao in Chinese sources ) , so there could be also refuge of I2a2-Din .


Do you have pictures of their artefacts and other relics???

How do you know that the Sarmatians, Scythians and Cimmerians were so different to each other? All these folks were Iranic speakers, so I do really think their cultures had some similarities. 
But it is also possible that the Cimmerians were not Iranic at all, but Europeans (I2a-din) who just spoke an Iranic language because they were influenced by other Iranic speakers from South Caucasus or Andronovo people.

And according to me it is not very likely that Medes were I2a-din folks. They didn't come from Europe. No way they came from Europe. They were native to the Iranian plateau and according to me they were mainly R1a, R2a, J and maybe even R1b folks with some T (was called K2)! There's very much R1b in Eastern (Iranian occupied) Kurdistan. 

Plus there is for about 8% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds (Northern Kurds) and also the same percentage in Tajikistan! This is very MUCH! Tajiks are linguistically and culturally related (very close) to the Kurds. Tajiks have very much of West Asian hg. J in them too. They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites, from about 3000 BCE. So R2a must be pre-Parthian in the Caucasus. But it's also possible that some R2a came to Kurdistan from Central Asia together with the Parthians.

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## Goga

Here are the Scythian artefacts. Even Hungarians think they're Scythians, everybody on this planet is Scythian lol...


http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/scyth.htm

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## Goga

"_A cataphract-style parade armour of a Saka royal from the Issyk kurgan, Kazakhstan_"
http://www.ask.com/wiki/Scythians

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## Bodin

Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
Hier are some Sarmathian artefacts*Attachment 5123 Attachment 5124 Attachment 5125*

*Attachment 5126* 
Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.*I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that* . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .

R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a

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## Bodin

So Cymmeria is place of R1a refuge , and R1a is one that is spreading due to horsebriding, ironwork , not the one that gets its lands invaded by I2a2-Din, she is the one that carry IE languagues west and east .
Also Cymerians never lived North of Caucasus like Sarmathians , but North of Black sea ,so it would be more logical that Sarmathians are mixed Scythians and Caucasian population , which is ofcourse not the case.
imagesCAE36WFF.jpg imagesCAIJDAXK.jpg imagesCAVATVGX.jpg mač i nož.jpg mindj2.jpg

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## Bodin

There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
ogrlica II vpne.jpg oružje.jpg

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## Goga

> Hungarians could be partualy Scythians , that later took Turkic culture.
> Hier are some Sarmathian artefacts*Attachment 5123 Attachment 5124 Attachment 5125*
> 
> *Attachment 5126* 
> Medes comed from north with Persians around end of II millenium BC . It is posible that they were rulling cast over native population , but there is posibility they all come from North . Name Mada is Persian and mean " one in the midle " , Herodotus say they real name is Aryan - and Ossetians call themselves Iron ( Ossetians are partualy descendants of Sarmathians).
> I2a2-Din come from Europe during LGM ( that was 20 thousand years ago ), long before formation of Medes so they are very much native.*I2a2 definetly didnt spend LGM on Balkans - it is to young for that* . Even I1 couldnt spend LGM in Scandinavia - in that time glaciers covered half Europe - tp Chezch and Slovakia - so I1 also had to spend LGM somwhere else and later move there .
> 
> R2a aroused somewhere in Northern Pakistan -where is found most of R2* . R2a is most comon in India( both Darvidians and Rajputi) and Sri Lanka (10-15%) and Pakistan and Tajikistan 8% . It is probably there very long time . In Alanic kingdom there was dark skined nation who lived in valeys in cities , they were there before Alans -probably R2a , some writers conect them with Indians.
> Kurmanji Kurds in Grusia had 44% of R2a , and Kurmanji in Turkey 8% - that shows R2a was in Caucasus long before Kurds. It is also present in all south Caucasian populations.
> It is realy hard to believe Cymerians were I2a2-Din - because Cymeria is R1a shelter during LGM , so they would have to be R1a


? What do you mean by 20 thousand years ago?

Yes there's about 44% of R2a among Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia, but there live only 30,000 Kurds or maybe even less. These Kurds marry only with each other, because most of them are Yezidi. It's forbidden for the Yezidi Kurds to marry other religions. So 44% is due to the bottleneck effect. Kurmanji Kurds in Georgia are the same as Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey. Most Kurmanji in Georgia are originally from Turkish Kurdistan. But Kurmanji Kurds in Turkey converted into Islam, while some Yezidi Kurds remained Yezidi. So that's why I'm counting all Kurmanjis as 1 Kurdish tribe. And about 8% of all Kurmanjis is R2a.
Bartangis of Tajikistan have a high frequency of R2a at about 17%.

R2a is a sister clade of R1a, it is from the same ancestor R*. R2a and R1a are almost the same. And it's at least as old as R1a. R2a is also very high among some other non-IE populations in Caucasus.
R2a in the Caucasus is at least 5000 years old! Upper castes of india that are very rich of *R1a* have very much *R2a* and *J2* too. 

"*Haplogroup R2a has a more significant presence in middle and upper castes.*"
http://mulnivasiorganiser.bamcef.org/?p=165

Very dark skinned folks in West Asia have the Elamites and the aboriginal Paleo-Caucasian-Hurrian Mesopotamian roots! It has nothing to do with R2a! But with hg. T, I think! There's a correlation between R1a, R2a and J in Iranic peoples.

I think that the Medes were R (R1a, R2a & R1b) and J (Caucasian J1 and J2) folks.

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## Goga

> There is very important difference betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - Scythian womens were never wariors , and Sarmathians are , also Sarmathae had woman rulers .
> Attachment 5133 Attachment 5134


What do you mean?

Scythians had female warriors too!


http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Women/avestan_women.htm
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2010...-warriors.html

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## Goga

Scientists about Scythian warrior women:

"_A team of archeologists investigating 2,400-year-old burial mounds built by the Scythian people on the upper River Don has found that five of 21 graves contained the bodies of young women with their weapons._"


http://www.fscclub.com/history/scyths-e.shtml

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## Bodin

LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected . 
I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians. 
Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?

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## GloomyGonzales

> Well if I would have to gues :
> yDNA
> I2a2-Din about 70%
> I2*+I2a* about 3%
> J2 about 8%
> R1a about 10%
> G2a about 3%
> E1b1b about 6% 
> mthDNA
> ...


I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?

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## Bodin

First two links in previous tag speack about 1 ) equality womans and mens in Avestan deities - Persia not Scythia 2) speack about Kurdic woman wariors not Scythians 
Links in this tread - they founded woman warior graves on river Don from 2.400 years - in that time Don is border betwen Scythians and Sarmathians - so they are Sarmathian , because such graves are find eats of Don in that time , and west of Don when Sarmathians moved there . Is there any female wariors tombs west of Don before 200 year BC ?They called them Scythian because the whole aeria from China to Hungary is under Scythians , that probably confused you.Lots of scientist call Scythian all east of Panonian basin to Altai mountin , and that is somewhat corect because it all use to be part of Scythian state , but not all nations in Scythia were Scythians.
Herodotus clearly say that only Sarmathian womans are wariors ( he explain that by they Amazon ancestry ) , and Scythian are not , he say that Sarmathian women need to bring head of killed enemy to king if she won to get married , and he dont saying that for Scythian womens.

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## Bodin

> I2a2-Din about 70%? Why so small?


Because it is 71% in Herzegovina , and that is place where Sarmathians settled on almoust empty land - Avars took and burned Voiki and 50 other cities ,they made new Avaric tribe in Panonia of captured peoples . Than Sarmathians came and killed and chased away Avars- Red Croats and then Serbs . If you look for closest image of Sarmathian genetics , look at Herzegovina .
After all there would have to be atleast 70% percents of I2a2-Din in Sarmathians to spread it so much amongs Slavs :)

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## Goga

> LGM 26.500 to 19. 000 years ago .
> R2a aroused before 25.000 years and probably setled India separatly from R1a - folowing valeys of Ind and Gang . R1a become 18.500 years ago , it is present among North Indians and R2a in both North Indians and Dravidians - that mean it come before and separatly from R1a . There is no R2a with R1a in Europe >>>>Those haplogroups are not conected . 
> I was speacking about darker skined population of Central Asia not Elamites and Hurrians. 
> Dont Tajikistans speack Altaic languague ? What are similarities betwen they and Kurdic languague ? When I was in Tajikistan I also noticed some similarities in they and Serbian customs - eagle dance is realy similar to Herzegovinian and Montenegro dances , way they greating each other puting hand in friends hand and kising each others hand , they hats are very similar to Montenegro and Herzegovinian hats , they make kaymak like we ( but it is probably Turkic recepy , on Mongolian Kaymak mean " on the top" , but Sarmathians could also took it from them ) , way they boil they milk puting stone that was in fire in it - same like Serbians , on Pamir there is suprising amount of fair hair and light eyes, ... I believe I read some researches that show some I2a2-Din on Pamir . They could be conected with Pashtuns- Sorban tribes in Pakistan and Afganistan.
> And if Medes were R and J how did I2a2-Din reached Kurdistan ?


Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to *70%* (in some areas) of *R1a* in Tajikistan.

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v98_p10244.pdf

But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.

I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup '*H*' in West Asia! Haplogroup *H* is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!

I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.

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## Goga

Tajik Y-DNA.




http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v98_p10244.pdf

Yagnobi Tajiks have even 32% of R1b (M173) + 16% R1a (M17) + 32% J2 (M172), while Ishkashimi Tajiks have 68% of R1a (M17), Tajk/Khojant Tajiks 64% of R1a and Bartangi Tajiks 40% of R1a.
All of them have very much West Asian J2 (M172) and F* (M89; J1 or G2a) too. And there's also *R2a* (M124) in these people!

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## Cobol19

My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.




> I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup '*H*' in West Asia! Haplogroup *H* is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!


How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts):

*Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia (Populations of Turkey)*
R2 - 1% (5/523)
H - 0.6% (3/523)

*Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon** (Lebanese and Iranians were tested)*
R2 - 1.5% (5/324) Among Iranians
H - 2.5% (8/324) Among Iranians

Also if you check yhrd, you'll notice that haplogroup H exists among:

Bakhtiari - 4% (2/50)
Persians - 3.1% (4/128)
Syrians - 3% (3/100)
Turks - 2.2% (15/670)
Gilaki - 2.1% (1/47)
Mazandarani - 2% (1/50)
Armenians - 2% (2/100)
Kurds - 1.6% (2/126)
Azeri - 1.4% (1/72)
Georgians - 1.3% (1/77)

Keep in mind that I left out other Arab states such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, etc where H is also found in similar numbers as the above, I also only searched one type of haplogroup H haplotype, the numbers could get a little bigger if other haplotypes are looked for.

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## Goga

> How do you figure there's no haplogroup H in the West Asia? That's false, it is found there and the numbers are actually comparable to R2a, here are some studies where both of these haplogroups showed up in the Middle East (I would post the links but I don't have 10 posts)


Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.

Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H. 
Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.

So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, *because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2*!

They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was *proto*-Indo-European.

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## Goga

> My guess on Scythian DNA is depending which Scythians we're talking about here, the original ones likely carried similar elements that existed in Southern-Central Asia today where the real Indo-Iranians originated, but if we're talking about the later Scythians, they were a diverse group, for instance the Scythians living on the Steppes in Russia/Ukraine were likely a bunch of Iranianized Slavs that carried a huge amount of R1a1a, on the other hand, back in Asia where the Indo-Scythians dominated, they still probably carried R1a1a along with other haplogroups like J2a, R2a, L3, etc.


Central Asian Iranic Tajiks have *much more* R1a than the European Slavic folks, like Poles, Ukrainians and (Bela)Russians...

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## Goga

This is one of the scenarios!





And this is a *second scenario*!





http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index_f..._Manoukian.pdf

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## Cobol19

> Ok, there's some 'H' but not so much! My mistake, thanks for the correction.
> 
> Chechens in Northern Caucasus have 15.8% R2a, it's no way thet have 15.8% of H.
> The Iranic speaking Ossetians (Alanians) from Alagir have 8% R2a, no way they have as much H. 
> Kurmanji Kurds in Turkish occupied Kurdistan have 6-8% R2a, no way there's 8% of H in them.


There are cases where a genetic drift has taken place, on the other hand, let's take the Chechens and Ossetians as an example, if R2a was so common among them, why wasn't it found in the latest study on the Caucasus called *"Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region"*? 330 samples were Chechens and 357 were Ossetians, not only that, but there was zero R2a in the entire study where 1525 samples were taken, I was not expecting that myself but this just goes to show you that R2a is not really an important lineage in the region, it shows up but its frequency is anywhere from 1% to 5% (More on the lower end), much like H.




> So I don't think there is a correlation between R2a and H in West Asia. Some People say that R2a migrated into West Asia and India from Central Asia at the same time! But it's also possible that R2a in India is from West asia, *because in folks in India where there's much R1a & R2a there's also very much West Asian J2*!


85% to 90% of R2a individuals today live in India, whether it originated there or not we don't know, but we do know that the strongest possibility for point of origin at this point falls somewhere in South Central Asia (Around North Pakistan and Afghanistan), because there we see the R* diversity very high, not to mention that recently it has been suggested that all the R* were likely R2*, if that's the case then all those groups that tested high in R* such as the Burusho and Kalash are actually R2* and their region may be the origins to this lineage.

As far as West Asian R2a goes, it's not out of the question to believe that it came from India, remember that there was an ancient connection between the Indus and Mesopotamia and through trade I'm very positive there was a gene wave going both ways, there's no need to dismiss the South Asian connection just because you feel like it, at the same time it's equally possible to believe that some R2a may have come through the Indo-Iranian expansions, my point is R2a belongs to different groups, but most dominant among South Asians. 




> They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was *proto*-Indo-European.


I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.

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## Goga

Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will provide new data on other countries in West Asia.

I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a).
And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient *Scythians* and *Medes* had some R2a in them too!

There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.

It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!




> I don't even know where you found this but as far as I know, there's no such thing, if you have a source for the above, please provide it.


I've got that from the http://dna-forums.org.

Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites in the Caucasus. If you're interested in this I would ask him.

You can ask him here: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...ta-in-armenia/

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## Bodin

> Tajiks are Indo-Europeans and speak a Persian dialect. According to them they are the very first & original Aryans. According to them Aryans are from Tajikistan / Central Asia. There's up to *70%* (in some areas) of *R1a* in Tajikistan.
> 
> http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v98_p10244.pdf
> 
> But I think they are also somehow mixed with the Turkic tribes.
> 
> I don't think Dravidians were ever in Caucasus. Because there is absolutely NO (0.00%) main and most important native Indian/Dravidian y-dna haplogroup '*H*' in West Asia! Haplogroup *H* is absolutely lacking in West Asia. If R2a was Dravidian it would come together with the y-dna hg. H. But this is not the case, so R2a in West Asia is not from India!
> 
> I2a-din was maybe part of the refugees from Srubna culture who fled to the Zagros mountains and found their safety & happiness.


I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .

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## Goga

> I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
> Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .


Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.

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## Cobol19

> Ok, thank you for your reply. And thank you for the references to other studies. I used some data from Wells et al. (2001) and Nasidze et al. (2004). Maybe new studies on other places in West Asia, will new data on other countries in West Asia.


Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.




> I think R2a is from South Central Asia (not far from the Himalayas and Hindu Kush), not far from the region where other R subclades are from (R1b and R1a). All R* subclades are related to each other. And are from the same region. And yes it is possible that Parthians and other Iranic folks brought R2a into West Asia. And I believe there's a correlation between R1a and R2a in the Iranic peoples. I think it's from the same source. All Iranic people with R1a have R2a too. So I believe that the ancient *Scythians* and *Medes* had some R2a in them too!


It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.

One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.




> There're not so much studies done on R2a, but maybe is West Asian R2a not the same as Indian R2a. I mean European R1b & E is not the same as African R1b & E. Or Q & N in Europe is not the same as Q & N in Turkic tribes.


Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.




> It's premature to say that hg. R2a in West Asia or in the Iranic folks in Central Asia is from the Indians/Dravidians! Because Dravidians are not from the Hindu Kush where R2a is from, while some Iranic folks are native to that region (Tajikistan etc.) !!!


Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.




> Some fella from Hungary with nickname "Jafety" wrote that they found R2a in the Trialeti sites. If you're interested in this I would ask him.


You misunderstood what this person was saying, there was no R2a found, he/she was simply taking current R2a STR values from FTDNA projects and calculating the TMRCA based on these STR values, which eventually according to his/her theory, it dates back to that time period, this is a person's opinion, not evidence.

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## Cobol19

> I didnt say it comed from India -it spreaded from it place of origin south to India and west to West Asia. I just try to prove R2a wasnt acompanied R1a in India or anywhere else - he was there before coming of R1a.
> Yes you wright , sorry , Tajik is Persian .


Actually, R2a correlates with R1a1a in South Asia, meaning there's a good chance they both have a similar history there that predates the migration of the Indo-Aryan speakers, the evidence for that is that R1a1a is actually found in most groups in South Asia including tribal Indians.

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## Bodin

You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .

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## Bodin

> Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you! My fault. Yes It's possible that R2a is older than R1a so I think you're right that R2a was in India before R1a. But it is also possible that some other new sub clades of R2a migrated into India together with R1a folks.
> So it is possible there were different and separate migration waves of R2a into India. First one even before IE people and the second one with the Indo-European people who spoke Sanskrit. But maybe not.


 You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?

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## Goga

> Both of those studies are kind of outdated, I'm not saying they're not legit (Although some people seem to question Nasidze's paper), I'm just saying that sometimes, when a certain lineage is not that common in an area yet out of nowhere shows up in significant numbers, it usually indicates a genetic drift.
> 
> It's possible that R2a was carried by ancient Iranians, but it's also equally possible that it was carried by ancient Dravidians too, my point is, the lineage belongs to different groups, as of today the highest people that carry this lineage actually live in Eastern India, and they're both Indo-Aryans and Dravidians, it also exists among both caste and tribal groups, meaning this lineage predates all this caste/tribal + Aryan/Dravidian stuff, R1a1a too has a similar history in South Asia which is contrary to the belief that it's supposed to be the Aryan lineage or what not.
> 
> One thing for sure, R1a1a and R2a correlate only in South Asia, Middle East, and Central Asia, but not in Europe, meaning if R1a1a was part or the early Indo-Europeans, R2a clearly was not.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not, but when it comes to facts there's no maybe, generally speaking, the story with R2a is not very clear because it's not a very popular lineage in Europe which means not much has been studied on it, but I imagine the story would be similar to the R1b relationship between Europe and the Middle East.
> 
> Again, R2a belongs to different groups, but since we're talking about Dravidians, the most leading theory is that they're the original population that lived in the Indus valley before migrating to South India, prior to that their ancestors were probably a mix of Neolithic migrants from the Middle East and local native Asians.
> ...


Ok. But how do you explain 8% of R2a in Kurds while there's only 1.6% of H in them (1.6% according to you)?

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## Cobol19

> You are probably right , thanks for corection. But R2a has not folowed R1a in IE speackers .


There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.

Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.




> You said you believe there was R2a in Scythians - where it is in Slavic nations because they are Scythian descendants ?
> You believe Srubna was I2a2? Srubna is succesor of Yamna culture - and it was probably proto IE - that was the shelter of R1a during LGM , so how I2a2 get there ?


As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.

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## Goga

> Having said that, people need to break thing us, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.


What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.

----------


## Cobol19

> Ok. But how do you explain 8% of R2a in Kurds while there's only 1.6% of H?


How do you explain it? I would say founder effect.

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## Cobol19

> What do you mean? They found R1a in Scythian 'kurgans'.


What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.

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## Goga

> How do you explain it? I would say founder effect.


Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.

All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated into India later. *And that H and R have different origin*.

There's R2a in West Asia, while H is almost absent. 1-2% of H is nothing, maybe due to some gene flow, Gypsies etc..

People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some Dravidian-centric folks hg. J2 is from India too. Bla, bla..

*But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India, you can deny it or not !!!*

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## Goga

> What I mean is people need to break up Indo-Europeans from Scythians because the two existed in different time periods, there's certainly some Indo-European ancestry, but the original Scythians come from an Iranian stock from Asia where other lineages are found.


Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!

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## Cobol19

> Or maybe not. Your theory is not waterproof either. You're also guessing to much.


I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.




> All we know is that hg. H is almost exclusively in (South) India and belonged to the ancient Dravidians.
> H was in India before R2a & R1a. And R2a & R1a migrated much later into India. And that H and R have different origin.


Haplogroup H is indeed almost exclusive to South Asia, but what do you say when 90% of R2a are Indian? That's pretty exclusive too, and no, we don't know if H, R2a, or whatever was ancient Dravidian, in fact, I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.




> People who don't support the Aryan-invasion theory of India say that Dravidians were R1a and R2a folks too. I read everything what you're saying on Dravidian-centric sites too. According to some folks there J2 is also from India. Bla, bla..
> 
> But we all know there was the Aryan invasion of India!!!


First, I'm not South Asian so I care less whether an Aryan invasion happened or not, second, I do believe that Aryan tribes did migrate from Central Asia and brought their Aryan languages (Possibly only one language at the time) to India, third, J2 originated in West Asia, finally, my opinion is based on scientific data collected in studies, both of haplogroups R1a1a and R2a exist among South Indian tribal groups that speak Dravidian languages, in fact, both of these lineages exist in most Indian groups and language or caste/tribe is hardly the defining factor, what makes R2a more Aryan than Dravidian?

Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.

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## Cobol19

> Why should I? Scythians spoke an Indo-European language. So I will not break up Scythians from Indo-Europeans!


Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans  :Rolleyes:

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## Sile

> As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.


I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did

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## Bodin

> There's no correlation between R1a1a and R2a in Europe, meaning R2a has no involvement among the earliest Indo-Europeans, but I think both of these lineages likely originated near South Asia or maybe anywhere between South Asia and the Middle East, possibly after the ice-age a clan of men who were mostly R1a1a migrated to the Western Steppes from South Asia or Anatolia and they were responsible for the rise of the Indo-European languages.
> 
> Having said that, people need to break things up, Indo-Europeans, Indo-Iranians, and Scythians are not the same, we're talking about different time periods here meaning just because the early Indo-Europeans carried a specific R1a1a lineage, it does not mean the Scythians carried it too.
> 
> 
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, the Scythians that lived around Eastern Europe were likely Slavs that were Iranianized since the later Scythians were likely an umbrella.


I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.

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## Bodin

> I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did


 They couldnt be Slavicized because there was not Slavs when Scythians were there , Slavs was made later , I guess of Scythians ploughers( around Pripyat) , some Neuri( Balts) , and maybe some older population .

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## Cobol19

> I think they where Iranians that where slavitized, opposite to you. They never reached the baltic sea like the slavs ( russian ) did


Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around (The early Indo-Europeans were the ones to do that), for whatever it's worth, only detailed analysis of R1a1a can determine that, recently, L342.2 seems to be the defining SNP that is found among R1a1a groups in South Asia, Central Asia, and the Middle East, in Europe however this is lacking with the exception of Jewish R1a1a, I believe groups like Tajiks and Pashtuns still carry significant ancient Scythian DNA, specially when both groups still speak languages similar (Among the Tajiks, the Pamiri groups still speak such language), if this mutation is found among them, I think this will close the case.

I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.

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## Cobol19

> I believe both Scythians and Cymmerians ( incoming populations from Andronovo culture ) and pre Cymmerian Yamna-Srubna culture was R1a . Slavs were made as separate group around VI century AD and they are descendants of all R1a populations north of Black sea .
> Scythian graves shows almoust exclusivly R1a , ofcourse they were umbrella term - smaller group that conquered and named all nations from Panonia to Altay . There is diference betwen R1a from Altay and European R1a.


Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.

----------


## Goga

> I'm not guessing with with the data available, I'm only guessing on what the origin points are, me saying this is a founder effect is not a guess, it's a reality, think about it, if R2a was a significant lineage in the region it would show up consistently, not every once in a while, you say it has been found 8% among the Kurds, fine, but how come the latest Kurdish study did not yield such number? If a lineage is significant, it would show up on regular basis in studies, haplogroups like J1, J2a, G2a, etc are basically consistent significant lineages in West Asia, R2a is not.


Which new studies? And on which Kurds? Southern Kurds almost don't have R2a, while Northern Kurds have some R2a, like other Iranic folks in the region.




> I find it irrelevant that people use these language terms with haplogroup origins unless some ancient DNA studies are done to equate the two.


True. But do you know Kant? He said one time a very good thing: "_Begriffe ohne Anschauunge sind leer, Anschauunge ohne Begriffe sind tot._"




> Ohh and one more thing, I'm actually a West Asian R2a, so if anything, I should agree with you for bias sake, but I simply cannot ignore the facts, it would be too unethical to do that.


I'm not accusing you. I'm sorry if you thought that I'm accusing you. My point is maybe you're reading very controversial studies?

And you're right. If you ingore the facts you will never find the true!

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## Bodin

> Scythians and Andronovo are once again, two different time periods separated by at least over a thousand years, is there a connection? Sure, but the two are not the same.


 I didnt say they are the same , I only said Scythians are descendants of Andronovo culture peoples

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## Goga

> Black Jamaicans speak English, I suppose we should start calling them Indo-Europeans


So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?

If Tajiks are related to Scythians. And Tajiks speak an IE language and they are Iranic. Tajiks are the close relatives to modern Persians, that are also Iranic IE folks. Scythians spoke an Indo-European language too and are related to modern IE folks like Tajiks. So that makes them both without doubts Iranic and Indo-European.

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## Cobol19

> So according to you are Iranic people - like ancient Scythians - not Indo-European?


They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.

My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.

The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.

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## Bodin

If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them? 
My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) . 
R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

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## Goga

# Cobol19

Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.

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## Bodin

> They are Indo-Europeans but they're more complex than the older Indo-Europeans, for example if we take the Persians today, the vast majority of them don't have ancient Indo-European lineages, but their Indo-European genes are still there even if it's minor compared to the West Asian genes.
> 
> My theory on this is that the original Indo-Europeans likely originated just north of the Caucasus, their ancestors were likely a clan of R1a1a men that migrated from Anatolia passing the Caucasus mountains and onto the Eurasian steppes after the ice-age, from there they originated and some migrated west to Europe to form Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc, while the others went to the east to form the Indo-Iranian branch, those that remained close by made the Slavic-Baltic branch, and those that somehow found their way down to Anatolia formed the Anatolian branch which does not exist anymore.
> 
> The Scythians fit in the story after the creation of the Indo-Iranian (Iranian and Indo-Aryan) branch, the Indo-Iranians were made after the Indo-European Andronovo folks mixed with the BMAC natives.


I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia

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## Bodin

> # Cobol19
> 
> Thank you! it's a very interesting view of point.


Trying my best

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## Cobol19

> If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them? 
> My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) . 
> R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
> R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
> Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:
> 
> http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/


What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there. 

The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.




> I believe R1b ( non IE until Bronze Age ) was in Asia Minor and then moved to Europe , she was replaced by E1b1b and J2 in Anatolia . While IE - R1a carryers were North of Black sea and from there spreaded in to Europe and India acros Central Asia


I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.

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## Bodin

Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape
haplogroup I.jpg

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## Goga

> If North Kurds have R2 and South almoust no , if they are same nation ( and they are ) , only logical answer is that North Kurds mixed with some population that have R2 and South didnt , and if that is Medes then why South Kurds didnt mixed with them? 
> My oppinion is that Kurds are descendants of Medes , and if they are they descendants , they have to have atleast more than 20% of Medean genes , and that is I2a2 ( 25%) and not the R2 (1-8%) . 
> R1b is west Asian and it is here long before Medeans ,same like J2 , same like R2 .
> R1a is probably from migrating Cymerians and Persians .
> Haplogroups in West and Central Asia:
> 
> http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/


I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.

So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.

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## Cobol19

> Hier is reconstructed typical I haplogroup facial shape
> haplogroup I.jpg


Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.

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## Bodin

> What makes you say the Medes had I2a2? As far as I'm concerned, the Iranians came to the Middle East through the Iranian plateau from the east, and I2a2 is absent there. 
> 
> The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe there was any replacement of R1b in the Middle East, I do agree that it was likely a Neolithic migration of a majority R1b clan that brought agriculture to Europe, though it's important to mention that no Neolithic R1b has been found in Europe today, all the Neolithic sites show G2a.


No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )

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## Goga

> The other thing is the Kurds are a diverse nation that have different backgrounds, which is why they have diverse lineages, though like the Persians, the majority seem to carry West Asian lineages.


In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!

All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.

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## Bodin

> I thought that the Medes and Persians were almost the same, that they shared the same roots and that the Medes were western neighbours of Persians. But there is also some I in West Iran. And we all know that Persians incorporated the Median nobility into their nobility.
> 
> So it's possible that you're right and are speaking the true.


Thanks , maybe Medians come with Persians like I2a2 , and maybe they were also R1a , but ruled over majority of I2a2 that was previosly in aeria.

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## Bodin

> Phenotypes have no connection to haplogroups, so this is irrelevant.


 Since certain haplogroups lived long time in same climate , they get characteristic looks

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## Cobol19

> No ,Iranians came from the North , but Medes could be refuge of I2a2 from Europe that were conquered by incoming IE / Iranians from North and exepted languague , or maybe even Masagets( similar culture to Sarmathians , and ancestors of Alans ) who use to live eats of Caspian sea ( how else to explain I2a2 in Kurds? - they are the only one with that haplogroup in aeria ) . Diodorus mention Sarmathians are descendants of Medes , and I2a2 match Sarmathian spread ( no it is not Balkan haplogroup -it is to young to be there since Paleolithe , even Neolithe ) .
> About R1b - it is from Anatolia - all R1b* is from there , I believe you speack about Treilles , all of researched Neolitic sites was in West Europe - so R1b was not in west Europe , but it was probably in central Europe and Balkans . If R1b had comed from east with R1a during Bronze Age , they would be a lot more mixed ( there is almoust no R1a in Spain, and France )


Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.

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## Cobol19

> In all parts of Kurdistan there's between 16-33% of I2a, no matter where you are and in all parts of Kurdistan there is very much R1a. Much more than in other West Asian populations except Iranians in East Iran near Central Asia!
> 
> All Kurds are the same and don't have different backgrounds! All Kurds are descendants of the Medes and speak the same Kurdish language, but different dialects! I mean all these Kurdish dialects have same origin.


With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.

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## Bodin

> Iranians came from the north? Based on what? The Iranians, like the ancient Indo-Aryan Indians, used the term "Aryan", where do you think the Aryan homeland was? Search up Ariana and you'll see what you'll find, surely, it's not the steppes in Ukraine/Russia if that's where you're getting at.


No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.

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## Cobol19

> No thats not what I am getting at , they comed from Central Asia and that is North , not from Pacistan which is east.


Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.

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## Bodin

> With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.


No nation is just from one nation , every nation is from mixed origin

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## Goga

> With all due respect, the Kurds still carry a large chunk of native West Asian lineages such as J1 and J2, unless you're implying that the original Medes carried these same lineages, then no, the Kurds are not just from the Medes.


What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region. In some areas there's more J2 in some areas there's more I2 or R1, but in general all Kurdish areas show the same pattern.
J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!

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## Cobol19

> What I mean is that all Kurds are related to each other. Their autosomal DNA is very close to each other. Kurdish 'haplogroups' are almost equally spread over the whole Kurdish region.
> J2, J1, E, I2a, R1a etc. are almost equally spread in all Kurdish people. Sorani, Zaza-Gorani, Kurmanji, Feyli and Laki Kurds have all almost the same DNA! No matter to what haplogroups they do belong, their admixture (autosomal DNA) is almost identical to each other!


Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.

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## Bodin

> Did you search up Ariana? Even if they came from Central Asia, I2a2 is absent there.


Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions

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## Bodin

> Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.


No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation

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## Cobol19

> Ariana was just province in Persian empire , sanscrit Arian mean elevated , noble , lot of IE speacking peoples called themselves like that , Ossetians call themselves Iron , There is some I2a2 in Central Asia , even after many Turco Mongolic invasions


I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.




> No Kurds are not diverse nation they just mixed with native and incoming populations , like every other nation


Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.

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## Goga

> Yes, but I never said they're not the same people, I just said they're a diverse nation, meaning they have different ancient backgrounds.


Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!

But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.

----------


## Cobol19

> Ok. I do agree with you!
> 
> But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? The same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.


They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.

----------


## zanipolo

> Well one thing for sure is that they migrated from Asia to Europe, not the other way around 
> 
> I'm not saying there's no Scythian ancestry in Europe, but it's clearly blown out of proportion, it's likely something very small and all the R1a1a there is mostly a product of the early Indo-Europeans, not Scythians.


Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.

The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.

isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?

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## zanipolo

> Ok. But 1 nation with several ancestors!
> 
> But back to Sarmatians and Scythians. According to you Scythians came from Central Asia, but who were the Sarmatians? Where did they came from? Were they the same as Scythians or had they different DNA, like I2a for example.


some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.

----------


## Goga

> They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.


"Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:

_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._"

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

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## Goga

> some recent comments have suggested that the sarmatian ended up being the croat and serbs ( south -slavic people) who brought I2a2 from north of the black sea into ancient Illyrian lands.
> If this is true then, the illyrians would have I1 and the Greek "myth" that illyrians where Thraci and dominated from the baltic sea to the balkans in per-bronze age would be true. but thats another story.


Well that's might be true. I can't find any other explanation! And this will change my perception on the ancient Greek historians that not all of them were a bunch of biased liars with a lot imagination.

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## Cobol19

> "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South andNorth Ossetians:
> 
> _Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequent and largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North and South Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._"
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf


I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

Also this was the frequency:

21ff56142ce8.jpg

As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).

----------


## Goga

> I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html
> 
> Also this was the frequency:
> 
> 21ff56142ce8.jpg
> 
> As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).


Ok thanks! Very much G2a in the Ossetian groups!

No according to Bodin I2a-din Sarmatians were NOT like Scythians. Accroding to him Sarmatians and Scythians were different people. He is saying that Scythians were R1a folks and Sarmatians I2a-din folks. And that the Sarmatians and Medes were the same. According to him Sarmatians are the 'Solar Medes'.

----------


## Cobol19

> isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?


It's not Ukrainian originally, it exists in South Asia and it predates the Indo-Aryan migration by its existence in tribal Indians:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...714Table_3.pdf

Some Indian R1a1a indeed share Indo-European ancestors with Eastern Europeans, but a lot of them have nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

----------


## Alan

Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups
First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them. I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.

In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Back to the Scythians, Medes etc. Like I mentioned sometime before allmost all 
schoolers agree that a Nation called the "Medes" were the product of various North Iranic tribes.
Mede was more a title later becoming the name of a confederation. from historic records we know that Mede was also the title of many Scythians and Cimmerians. for more informations "Carola Metzner-Nebelsick: Kimmerier In: Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde,"

Many of the so called "Medes" were in fact Cimmerians and Scythians. If we look at historic records we see, that throughout the whole former Median empire there are traces of Cimmerians and Scythians-Alans. Cimmerians in Edessa, Cappadocia,Hakkari,Van and around the Zagroß. Persian records talk about Gmira(the Proto-Iranian word for Cimmerians with the meaning mobile unites, nomadic groups). There are records that South of Lak Urmiya a Region was called Gamirk the same name which was also used by the Cimmerians moving into Cappadocia. Even today this Region is called by Kurds Gawirk! This M=W/V soundshift is very typical for some Kurdish languages like Kurmanji known by any linguist. As example The North Iranian Hamin becomes Havin. Even today in this Region a Kurdish tribe lives which is called Gorani. The Word Gorani derives from Old Iranic Gairi which means Highlanders. Gairi is another Version for the Name of Cimmerians in pre historic times.

Then there are the Alans one of the biggest Kurdish tribes. Someone must be very ignorant to not see the connection between them and the Alans of Sarmatia. 99% of historians are sure that the Alan tribe among Kurds are simply the Alans(Sarmatians). The Alan tribe of Kurds live throughout Kurdistan from East Anatolia to Zagros. From Dersim, Van, Hakkari to Kirmashan you can find the Alans. unfortunately after the Dersim massacre especially members of the Alan tribe in Dersim were deported to West Anatolia to be assimilated.

a wedding of the Kurdish Alan tribe.



The Region around Sine(Sanandaj) and Mahabad is traditionally called by their People Erdalan. In Kurdish it means Erd(place, earth) Alan. The place of Alans.
Alan Kurdish dance Group from Erdalan.




The Alans also play a big role in Kurdish love stories



> With regard to the Alans, we have previously mentioned the large Alanian tribal confederations among the Kurds, such as Alans of Piranshahr and Sardasht south of lake Urmia or the Alan aristocracy who ruled for centuries over what is nowadays Iranian province of Kurdistan (Ardalan, or Ard-Alan), immidiately to south of the former.
> We have also referred to the name of the mythological Kurdish hero of the Epic of Mem u Zin, "Memê Alan" (or Mam the Alan). This classic love story is considered to be the épopée of the Kurdish literature. One more interesting fact with regard to the story is pointed out by the French orientalist and expert on Kurdish literature, Roger Lescot. He rightfully identified the origin of the story in a narration by Chares of Mytilene, a Greek historian of the 4th century BC. Chares informs us that the love story which is about a prince and a Scythian princess, is originally recited by the Scythians of Caucasus mountains.


the story was filmed here some excerpts. Zîn is the woman. Memê Alan(Mem the Alan) is men.



Now the thing is some people totally ignore this because they use the linguistics as reason. Those People usually have zero knowledge about the Iranic languages and how they are classified. The difference between Northwest and Northeast Iranic is super small. In fact the factors which are used for this separation are so small that simple loud shifts could effect that a Northeast Iranic language is considered Northwest. Thats why MANY linguists started to Question this system and recognized that in fact the difference between the NW and NE Iranic is smaller as that between NW and SW Iranic. Many linguists in fact do classify like this. 

They put Kurdish together with the East Iranic languages in a Central Group and Persian, Kathanese have their own separate branch.

We Kurds just like any other People are the product of different tribes. The Reason why so many Kurds insist on the Median heritage, is because the forefather of Kurds were united under this title just like they are today under the term Kurd. But I don´t like it when Medes are mentioned as if it was one tribe. Med was a title used for Scythians, Parthians, Cimmerians, Alans, Mitannis and even Caucasian tribes(Hurrians) etc. and the Kurdish tribes with there diverse names are the product of this. Around Mardin there is even a Kurdish tribe called Mitan! There must be a reason why in Iranian languages Kurd means nomad as well Warrior and why Iranians almost always say "the Kurds are the real Iranians" Now the Question is, did all these tribes move into Media, or were they already present.

----------


## Alan

And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.

----------


## zanipolo

@ Alan
your language table is in error

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...jandacek07.pdf

slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs

----------


## Alan

> @ Alan
> your language table is in error
> 
> http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...jandacek07.pdf
> 
> slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs



No it isnt. It cant be wrong it just has a different type. Every table is different from another. It differs between South, East and West Slavic. Your PDF says *South*west Slavic and it doesent differs so good.

----------


## Cobol19

> Cobol19 could you please provide the source or a link for the posted percentages of Haplogroups


Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.org and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:

DYS393 = 14
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 14
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 10




> First of all Haplogroup R2a is absent among Gypsies the only Gypsy Group where R2a was founded , were settlers in Tajikistan originally from Germany. We can be sure that these R2a were given to this Gypsies by native Tajiks because R2a is absent among any other Gypsy group. Linking Haplogroup R2a with H is insane.and there is by far no correlation between them.


I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full

This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.

Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.




> I don´t know where you got this from cobol19. You sound a bit Indocentrics trying to prove that R2a and R1a did developed in India and not Central Asia.


Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.




> In the two studies "Annals of Human Genetics" and "Testing hypotheses of language replacement in the Caucasus: evidence from the Y-chromosome" 16% R2a among Chechens and 8% among Ossetians was found. All scientist agree that R2a developed close to R1a somewhere in todays Tajikistan.
> R2 is found throughout West-, Southwest-, South Asia, East and South Europe.
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults


I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...sr126.abstract

Here's the frequency from the study:

21ff56142ce8.jpg

----------


## Alan

> Which ones? Are you talking about the numbers from YHRD? Just go to www.yhrd.org and search for the haplotypes, this involves some knowledge in STR markers and which haplogroup they represent, so a basic haplotype for R2a for example is:
> 
> DYS393 = 14
> DYS390 = 23
> DYS19 = 14
> DYS391 = 10
> DYS392 = 10


 I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.



> I never said anything about Gypsies, but since we're talking about them, R2a does show up among them but in extreme small numbers, whatever the case is, the Gypsy sample you're talking about comes from the Spencer Wells study back from 2001, here's the link for it:
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10244.full
> 
> This group is known as Sinti, they were deported from Central Europe (Germany) to Uzbekistan during the second world war, the reason why R2a is significant among them is the same reason why it was so significant among the Yezidie Kurds of Georgia, due to a genetic drift, and while it's possible that they may have received it from local populations, it's also very possible that their ancestors actually carried all along and did indeed come from Germany, it's just that when you have a genetic drift like that, rare spikes happen.


thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.




> Check out www.yhrd.org for R2a haplotypes, you'll notice that some Roma Gypsy groups in Eastern Europe actually carry it in small numbers.


I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.




> Indocentric? Not at all, like I said, I'm a West Asian R2a myself, why would I be Indocentric? What I am is honest, South Asian R2a is very diverse and old, people who deny South Asia as a legit home for R2a are not being honest about the subject due to personal agenda, I have no agenda, I'm interested in the truth and believe me when I say, I put a lot of research into this haplogroup since it's my paternal lineage, the best theories usually lead to South Asia or somewhere very close to it as the point of origin.


 No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.






> I already addressed this point, this was also likely due to a genetic drift, specially when you have a small sample like that, didn't you not see the latest study I posted about the Caucasus? Here you go:
> 
> http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...sr126.abstract
> 
> Here's the frequency from the study:
> 
> 21ff56142ce8.jpg


I will look over it, Thank you.

----------


## Bodin

> I2a2 in Central Asia? Provide your sources please.
> 
> 
> 
> Which means a nation with diverse ancient backgrounds, same thing.


Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period

----------


## Bodin

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering

----------


## Bodin

> They're some form of Scythians which later became known as Alans and apperantly their modern offspring being the Ossetians, an important note to mention here however is that the Ossetians lack some of these lineages that you guys are discussing (Like R1a1a), in other words this is a good example on how a population can be Iranianized.


No they were not some form of Scythians , you just denied yourself , Scythians were R1a - shown by grave excavations, and there is very litle R1a among Ossetians . But there is significant amount of I2a2 in Ossetians - Sarmatians.
No Alans are not same as Sarmathians - they later got in to Sarmathian union , but Alan mean " one that live in steppes" - they are descendants of Masagetae - that lived east of Caspian sea , and Sarmathians west of it - Chinese sources mention Alanliao on that place and say they are descendants of Yancai kingdom ( Osi , Aorsi other names of Alani ).

----------


## Bodin

> Yes , iranians migrated north wards and became slavitized over time.
> 
> The Scythian as I studied it , eventually became a ugric people who where with the hunnic invasions and later became the hungarians/magyars. Hungary has ugric with no finnic . Sometime in the ancient times these scythian split or as some say they are a branch of the sarmatians.
> 
> isn't R1a1a originally a ukrainian group ?. where they not the peucini a germanic people?


 Only some Scythians become Madyars , most of them turned to Slavs

----------


## Bodin

> I don't have the paper myself, but Dienekes commenting on the latest study from the latest paper on the Caucasian populations (Which includes Ossetian samples):
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html
> 
> Also this was the frequency:
> 
> Attachment 5137
> 
> As you can see, both Ossetian groups carried less than 1% R1a1a* (Older form of R1a1a which was likely from the ancient Iranians), 0% R1a1a7 (Eastern European form), and 0% I* or I2a (This one is for Bodin who's claiming I2a2 for ancient Iranians).


This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...04.00131.x/pdf
and hier is abstract:
*Table 3 
*

Y chromosome haplogroup frequencies in Ossetian groups

Haplogroups

Groups N E

_∗_ C_∗_ K_∗_ P1 P_∗_ R1_∗_ R1a1_∗_ F_∗_ G_∗_ J2_∗_ I_∗_ HD Source

YAP RPS4Y M9 M124 M45 M173 M17 M89 M201 M172 M170

North Ossetia (Russia)

Digora 

*31* 0 0 0 0 0.06 0 0 0.03 0.74 0.03 0.13 *0.440* Nasidze _et al._, (2004)

Ardon 

*28* 0 0 0.07 0 0.04 0 0.04 0.04 0.21 0.29 0.32 *0.788* Nasidze _et al._, (2004)

Zil’ga 

*23* 0 0 0.130 0 0 0 0 0.043 0.565 0.261 0 *0.620* Present study

Zamankul 

*23* 0 0 0.217 0 0 0 0 0.087 0.609 0.087 0 *0.590* Present study

Alagir 

*24* 0 0 0.083 0.083 0 0.042 0 0 0.750 0.042 0 *0.440* Present study

South Ossetia (Georgia)

S. Ossetians 

*17* 0.18 0 0 0 0 0.12 0.06 0.41 - 0.24 0 *0.772* Wells _et al._, (2001)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...f_the_Caucasus
There is extract :

LezginsNEC (Lezgic)31&100000000000000065000006.5&100000000000 000096999999.7&10000000000000009699999I=9.7&100000 0000000005810000058.1&100000000000000000000000.0&1 00000000000000000000000.0&100000000000000000000000 .0&1000000000000001610000016.1&1000000000000000000 00000.00.0—Yunusbaev 2006[9] 
DarginsNEC (Dargin)2644I=58see F400400F[xG,I,J2,K]=27Nasidze2004BChechens Total [20]NEC (Nakh)3300.0P18=3.0
P303=2.4I2=.3J1*=20.9M67=55.2
J2b=.3
other=1.2L3=7.03.91.83.30.0-Balanovsky 2011alkarsAltaic (Turkic)[17]38&100000000000000026000002.6&10000000000000028899 99928.9I2*=&100000000000000026000002.60M67=5.3
J2b=2.6
other=15.8L2=&100000000000000052999995.3&100000000 0000001319999913.2&1000000000000001319999913.2&100 000000000000079000007.9&100000000000000000000000.0 H=2.6Battaglia2008Azeris
(Azerbaijan)Altaic (Turkic)[15]725.618.12.8F30.66.9[1]6.911.12.84.2[1]F[xG,I,J2,K]=11Nasidze2004[2]AvarsNEC (Avar-Andic, Avar)1150.0P18=.9
P303=9.6I*=.9
I2a=.9J1e=.9
J1*=58.3M67=.9
other=5.2L2=2.61.714.8.90.0N=1.7Balanovsky 2011[ 
AndisNEC (Avar-Andic, Andic)49&100000000000000020000002.0G2=
&100000000000000060999996.1I1=&1000000000000000200 00002.0
I2a=&1000000000000002450000024.5&10000000000000036 70000036.7&1000000000000001839999918.4&10000000000 0000000000000.0&100000000000000020000002.0&1000000 00000000060999996.10.0&100000000000000020000002.0 Yunusbaev Adygei/
"Circassians"[4]NWC (Adygei)-0.0[5]31.3[6]I*=1.4
I2a=2.9[7]

--Adygei (Kabardin)NWC (Adigei)59&100000000000000000000000&10000000000000 02880000028.8&10000000000000010199999I=10.2F11.9K& 100000000000000017000001.7&10000000000000001700000 1.70KF[xG,I,J2,K]=23.7
K[xP]=15.3



Abkhaz

NWC (Abkhaz-Ubykh)1200 I=33025033.0800—Nasidze2004

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%


First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.

----------


## Alan

> First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.


Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.

----------


## Bodin

> And the Reason why some historians record that Sarmatians are Medes, is also explained above. Mede was a title also used for Scythians. Sauromatan is the real name. Sauro comes from Latin and means something like Lizard. This name was given because of their lizard like Armor. Sauromatan simply "Lizard Medes" The Sarmatians were called descend of Medes because technically they were Medes.


 No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .

----------


## Bodin

> @ Alan
> your language table is in error
> 
> http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbor...jandacek07.pdf
> 
> slovenes are west-slavic and could have originated from sorbs


No Slovenes are southSlavic languague group , and Slovakians are west Slavic

----------


## Bodin

> First of all, Tatars(turkic people) have nothing to do with Sarmatians(IE people). Secondly, Tatars from Kazakhstan and Tatars from Russia are the same people and both of them do not have so much amounts of I2a2 as you state, they have miserable amounts of I2a2 mostly due to intermarriages with Russians.


Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians


Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Turkic People absorbed many Iranic blood throughout history.


Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.

----------


## Alan

> No Sauro on Greeck means lizard ( like in dinoasaur ) , but it is Greek explanation for name of Sarmathians due to simmilarity of words , the name actualy comes from sanscrit Sara - Sky, Dawn , Wise , Old , Shepard , One that protects ,Sun... (It is also part of Zaratustra name -Sara Aster "star from the sky " , " star of wisdom ").
> Medes is also from sanscrit and it means man - so it is true many nations have probably used it. But Diodorus say Saramathians are the Medes from Media ( not any Medes) that Scythians took to Caucasus during they rule in Asia .


Another interesting fact is that they were only called Medes from outside while the Medes called themselves Aryan and were made up by 6 tribes according to Heredotus. This is another indication that Mede was not a specific folkname but more like a political status. It is not wrong to to assume that the so called Medes from West Asia were in fact Proto Iranic(Aryan) nomad groups. Mede can be seen similar as Aryan and was used as title throughout the Iranian world. Mede=high priest (political status) Aryan= noble.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Tatars has nothing to do with Sarmathians , but I2a2 was there before they comed , and yes it is 16% , more than Russians


Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?

----------


## Alan

> Nobody questions the fact that Turkic people turkisized Iranian people but here we discuss Sarmatians and AFAIK they were not absorbed by Tatars.


They did absorb Alans in North Caucasus and the Steppes but your right this was rather small. The Turkic tribes mostly absorbed Sogdian blood.

----------


## Kardu

Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.

----------


## Kardu

> They found some R2a in the Trialeti culture sites (with Kurgans) in the Caucasus, from about 3000 BCE. According to some scientists Trialeti culture was *proto*-Indo-European.


Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.

----------


## Goga

> Goga, could you, please, give a reference? I've never heard of paleo-dna test done on some remains of Trialeti culture. In general I am not aware of any paleo dna tests having been conducted in Georgia at all.


I'm sorry I made a mistake. Some fella on the other site suggested this , but I misunderstood him and other people and took their ideas as facts.

Here are they talking about it: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...ta-in-armenia/

----------


## Kardu

Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.

----------


## Alan

> Thanks for your reply Goga. Yes, it seems certain DMXX makes an unreferenced assumption about that.


That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.

----------


## Bodin

> Where did you get 16% I2a2 for Tatars? Could you provide any information about these research?


Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Enjoy :Satisfied: , and thanks for answering

----------


## Bodin

> Do you mean that I2a2 is a kind of genetic virus that transferred from Sarmatians to Tatars and made them I2a2 people?


No I dont think it is a genetic viruse . I clearly said that there was some I2a2 peoples in Northen Kazahstan before Tatars , when Tatars comed , they conquered them , and in time become one nation. I cant say it more simply . Egzample : when Russians conquered Finnic nations ( Komi , Maari ,...) in today Northwest Russia , they didnt catch any viruse , but today in some these aerias population has over 50% of N1c ( Finnic) - not only Maari , Komi ,... but Russians to , and that is result of mixing and Russization , simillar proces could occure in Kazahstan to .

----------


## Bodin

> Interestingly in modern Georgian remains the echo of the Sarmat ethnonim: Tsarmart-i = pagan.
> Probably after Georgia adopted Christianity in early 4th century AD, ethnic name of its non-Christian northern neighbours generalized to mean all pagans.


Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable . 
There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.

----------


## Cobol19

> I was talking about the numbers of Haplogroup H and R2a you shared with us.


*Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia*

*Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon*




> thats exactly what I was trying to say. Ok sorry my mistake I thought you tried to link R2a to Gypsies because you thought R2 and H correlate. Just like have mentioned R2a is very small among Gypsies and only found among one Sinti Group in Uzbekstan. This is rather given to them by the local Uzbeks. We all know that Gypsies tend to marry males into their community because females are usually not given to them. The same can also be seen in the Balkans were there are more European yDNA haplogroups than mtDNA. My goal was simply to show that R2a did not reached West Asia or the Kurds with the Gypsies but is much longer in this Region.


I don't think I ever said R2a and H correlate nor I said it came through the Gypsies, I said they had comparable numbers in West Asia, which they do, both lineages are not that significant.




> I actually red somewhere that most of the R2a in East Europe is of Jewish origin. R2a among Gypsies in East Europe is as frequent as R1a or any other non typical Gypsy Haplogroup.


I would say 90% of R2a in Europe is indeed of Jewish origin (Both Ashkenazi and Sephardi), these European Jewish R2a resemble the Middle Eastern Jewish R2a which means they came from them, this comparison has been done in our R2 FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

If you're not aware, based on Behar, R2a is likely a very strong lineage among the Iraqi and Iranian Jews (Go to page 37 for the numbers):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re09103-s1.pdf

For some reason, he did not split R2 from Q, so the frequency is actually under PQR2, the Iraqi Jews carry about 30% (24/79), while the Iranian Jews carry 36% (17/49), I can guarantee that each group carries at least 10% R2a if not more (Likely more), because P* is extremely rare, other famous haplogroups under P such as R1a and R1b already have their own columns, that leaves us with Q, among Iraqi/Iranian Jews Q1b is also quite popular like R2a, so the percentages are most likely split between R2a and Q1b with a minor Q1a.




> No one said the "South Asian" origin of R2a is impossible just like no one did it with R1a. What I denied was that some People tried to connect R2a with the expansion of Gypsies just because this one Sinti Group in Uzbekistan showed some R2a in reality R2a in other Sinti and Roma groups is very rare. You could find more typical Southeast European lineages among them, than R2a! In fact many scientist place the origin of R2 rather in Central Asia around Tajikistan but when someone hears South Asia, he also has to know what can be meant under this geographical Term. It is the same dilemma with Dienekes "South Asian" component.


I never suggested that the Gypsies brought R2a, I mean they probably did carry a small number of R2a among them (Which has been proven), but I doubt they played a vital role in spreading it, the strongest candidates are Indo-Iranians and Turks, along with Neolithic migrations.

----------


## Cobol19

> Tatars from Kazahstan ( where Alans lived ) : R1b 6% , R1a29%, I2a2 16% ,N1c 25%, E1b1b 2% , J 8% , G 7% , other 6%
> Vandal tribe Silingi used to be called Hari , before they took name by ruler , German tribe Hari , Roman name Arian ,... It is realy comon in all of IE speacking nations
> No it is not same thing , my way means Medes ( I2a2-Din ) camed and conquered previous population and later being conquered by other populations- so mixing ocured- name one nation without such mixing , if there would be diverse ancient backgrounds that would mean few diferent nations formed some kind of union in one moment of time - so diference in haplogroups would occured instantly not over very long time period


Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).




> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap
> Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).Thanks for answering


This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.




> This is not truth North Ossetians have significant I2a2 and other Caucasian groups to :
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...04.00131.x/pdf


As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Ofcourse I can .But only Khazahstan Tatars has so many I, I didnt mentioned other Tatars. That information was from Journal of Genetic Genealogy, hier is the Link ( read data for East Europe , you will find data for Tatars from Kazahstan , but also for various Caucasus populations ) :
> http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
> Enjoy, and thanks for answering


My comments about this paper:
1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.

----------


## Kardu

> Very interesting , Georgians and Sarmathians lived like neighbors very long time ( VII century BC - II century AC , and even later some groups of Sarmathians stayed on Caucasus - Roxolani , they are maybe represented in Ossetians , Dargins , Chuvash, all with high I2a2 ) , so influence on both sides has to be remarkable . 
> There is also some I in Georgians , is there some I2a2 -Din , or all of it is I* ( like you ) and I2* ?
> Georgia , Turkey and Armenia are very interesting regarding I haplogroup - I* was mainly found there , and I2* was found only there - so could it mean that LGM refuge of IJ and later I was in South Caucasus? I2a2* is not yet founded , so we dont know his land of origin.
> Thanks for joining discusion , and welcome.


Thank you, Bodin. 
So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.

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## Kardu

> That user is known for such claims. He was also the User with unreferenced claims about I2a among Kurds.


Actually he has admitted his mistake :)

"A mistype; I commented on the Armenian R2a age calculated by Jafety relative to the Trialeti culture. I'm not aware of any ancient Y-DNA being recovered from the Caucasus."

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## Bodin

> Couple of things, first, please provide me the source for the Tatar study, don't just write the numbers down, the other thing is, it's been a known fact that the Tatars living in the old USSR territories have actually intermarried with Russians, so it's not uncommon for them to carry such lineages that resemble Eastern European Russians, as you can see they also have high R1a and N1c which are both high and significant among Russians (That is, assuming your numbers are real and you provide the study).
> 
> 
> 
> This map shows one person from Kazakhstan, and by the name of this person, he sounds Russian, I actually have a Russian coworker from Kazakhstan, he confirmed that there are a lot of Russians that live there (At least 30% of the population), and even if this person was not Russian, this map surely shows how weak and insignificant I2a2 is in Central Asia, if anything it proves my point.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, many question that Nasidze study, in any case, from the link you provided it only shows two Ossetian populations that carry haplogroup I*, notice from the same link that the rest do not carry it? Not to mention the latest most relevant study showed no I at all among them, the other thing is, even if they were carrying I*, how can you prove it was I2a2? Surely it could be I2a1, or I2c, or I2b, you can't simply speculate on facts just because you feel like it, show me a study where they carry I2a2, then we'll talk, until then, you have no good argument.


http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ? 
Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?
Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" . 
It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.
Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?

----------


## Bodin

> My comments about this paper:
> 1. "Tatars, Kaz" means Tatars from Kazan (capital of Tatarstan Republic ) but not Tatars from Kazakhstan.
> 2. Kazanian Tatars have some I haplogroups but they are Germanic(I-M223 and I-M253) but not South Slavic I2a1b (former I2a2) as you say.


1) Yes you are right , my mistake , sorry , but that is place where Volga Bulgaria was - and Bulgars are probably Sarmathians to - Balkan Bulgars also have high I2a1b.
2)from same site :
The main Turkic-speaking populations in East Europe

are the Tatars, Chuvash and Bashkirs.

The “Balkan” Haplogroup I represents the opposite

of Haplogroup R1b: its frequency is low (less than 5%)

in the Bashkirs but higher (14-24%) in the other Turkicspeakers


I dont believe they would call I M223 and I M253 "Balcanic"
I2a1b is not South Slavic , to say that you would have to prove there was significant settling of Slavs in Balkans and Kurdistan . South Slavic is only languague category.

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## Bodin

> Thank you, Bodin. 
> So far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
> As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.


Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering

----------


## sparkey

> Yes but back-migration from where? - There is no founded I2* anywhere in world except Georgia, Turkey and Armenia . Thanks for answering


I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.

----------


## sparkey

> TSo far we know for certain only one more Georgian I2* except me, belonging to an old noble family. According to scientific papers there must be few more but nothing is known about their haplotypes or surnames.
> As for the origins currently it is believed that IJ had its roots somewhere in the Caucasus region but I2* has to be a later back-migration.


I assume that you are either kit #164204 or kit #47732 in the FTDNA I2*/new I2b/new I2c Project. You can update your haplogroup identification to I2c; former I2*-B is thoroughly confirmed to be L596+ L597+. I agree that it is a back-migration, by the way, but despite thinking a lot about how it got back to Asia, I'm still stumped. How yes no and I have talked a bit about it on this forum and figured that Crete could have been an important place along its migration path, and that its spread must have something to do with seafaring. It could have started its migration as far away as Germany, as that's around where its brother clusters are centered.

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## Alan

> I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.


Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish inhabidet regions).

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

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## sparkey

> Sparkey something interesting. Please look were they found the I* among the Armenians. Not one of them in Armenia but most in East Anatolia and Northwest Iran ( the major Kurdish regions). 
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap


You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?

----------


## Cobol19

> http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik2.pdf
> Tatars are Turkic nation and N1c is common in Altai , also R1a is also common on Altai , what makes you say it is from Russians ?


There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.

On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.




> Yes there is many Russians in Kazahstan , but I am not shore this one is Russian , do you have research of Kazahstan haplogroups that shows no I ?


The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/

There's only one I1 in the project, and he's Tatar actually, not Kazakh.




> Every research for North Ossetians I see shows I2a2 present "the latest most relevant studies" .


Show me the study where I2a2 was found, don't just tell me.




> It would be very suprisingly if it is I2a1 becouse only place where it is found east of Italy is 1,6% among Albanians from Macedonia. Also I2b is realy nonposible - there was not gothic kingdom or Varangians.


Check out the Armenian FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Out of 20 individuals with haplogroup I, the breakdown for the haplogroup is the following:

I2c* - 70% (14/20)
I2b1 - 20% (5/20)
I2a2 - 5% (1/20)

This is the only project which comes similar to Iranian populations like the Persians or Kurds, I can't imagine the Kurds being I2a2 mostly because they live on the eastern parts of Anatolia, I2a2 is usually more common in the western parts which is why it may be more common in Anatolian Turks.




> Where do you think Kurds get 25% of I2a2 they have , what do you believe I2a2-Din origins are ?


Where did you come up with 25% I2a2 for Kurds? Please provide the source, I know two studies where I* is shown, but once again, we don't know whether this is I2a, I2b, or I2c, and I believe the origins of I2a2 is somewhere around Southeast Europe.

----------


## Cobol19

> You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?


I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.

----------


## Alan

> You mean all subclades of Haplogroup I, right? That is interesting. Actually, I don't expect the different subclades of Haplogroup I to have arrived in Armenian populations at the same time... the fact that all of them are fairly dispersed as far as Armenians go probably tells us something about the patterns of European migrations into Armenian populations. I'm not that familiar with historical Armenian migrations, was there some way they could have met these expanding European-origin populations on their fringes?


Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?

However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.

----------


## sparkey

> I2 in general likely entered Anatolia from the Balkans, probably the greatest I2 expansion might have been during the Byzantine period, so it's not out of the question that this was brought by a few Greek-Armenian encounters, but I also expect more ancient migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia which also likely brought I2.


It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?

----------


## Cobol19

> It seems obvious that the I2 that ended up in Anatolia would have come from its neighbors, but we have the curiosity that I2c has an apparent center of diversity close to Germany... that's pretty far away. And the predicted age of Armenian I2c-B is only about 2300 years old per Nordtvedt (and he seems to have made his estimate even more recent in his latest tree)... so it must have happened relatively recently. That's a long way and not too long ago. Do you give any credence to the "merchant clan" theory?


Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

----------


## sparkey

> Yes all but mainly I2c. Is it possible that some of the I* found among Kurds is also partly I2c? or is all of it clearly I2a?
> 
> However I still assume that most of it is I2a because the I2a found among Armenians is also from East Anatolia.


I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.

----------


## sparkey

> Germany you say? This may fit the bill of that time-line:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia


I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.

----------


## Cobol19

> I would expect at least one French I2c-B sample if that was it, but that's not the case. Although, there is only one German I2c-B sample so far... frequency tells us less than diversity, I suspect. It could have been a single Galatian family with a very rare haplogroup that just happened to be extremely successful. That's plausible. We still need an explanation for its presence as the dominant subclade in Crete, though... that's pretty geographically isolated from the rest... although the only Cretan sample I see with a full STR set publicly available clusters quite Western as far as I2c-B goes, so that could be a different circumstance.


It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.

----------


## sparkey

> It's not impossible for a minority to be lucky and have some successful offspring.


With the claims of Georgian and Armenian nobility from the Asian I2c descendants (including direct descent from the House of Hasan-Jalalyan) they could have had a cultural advantage. Although I tend to take such claims with a grain of salt.

----------


## Alan

> I think data on Kurds is deficient at the moment. IIRC there were some STR predictions that indicated I2a in a study or two but I don't remember which, maybe Nebel et al or something. Nasidze et al showed levels of Haplogroup I but not subclades.


Yes it was the study of Nebel et al. Nasidze study was about Anatolian, Georgian Kurds. Nebel was about Iraqi Kurds and both showed I2* among them.

----------


## Bodin

> I2* is now an empty set... all sufficiently tested I2* in Georgia, Turkey, and Armenia has been shown to be I2c with the discovery of the L596 and L597 SNPs. Specifically, Asian I2c is part of the apparently youngest STR cluster of I2c known as I2c-B.


Than I make mistake , thanks for corecting . I wonder were I2* would be found , or it is died out ?Thanks for answering

----------


## Bodin

> There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.
> 
> On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.
> 
> 
> 
> The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:
> 
> http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/
> ...


Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c 
Ofcourse mainly haplogroup would be C - there was many Mongolic invasions, and Mongols killed a lot of old population , like anywhere they were . 
Hier is map that shows I in Northwestern Kazahstan , and before you ask it is highly unlikely to be I2b or I2c *.Present some data that would point it would be I2b or I2c*
*Attachment 5146*
No I2a2 is not common in Turkey at all ( all I is 4% , and it is mostly in most western parts from Serbian-I2a2 and Varangian-I1 and I2b settling ) , so how do you think it get from southeast Europe ,where you presume it is originated , to Kurdistan without any impact on Anatolia ?Do you have some reasons to say it is some other I than I2a2 - present data .
It could only be I2a2 , from where would I2b or I2c comed to Kurdistan ? I believe there is some researches for Iraqian Kurds that show I2a2.
I2a2 origins cant be in Southeast Europe - it is to young to be on Balkans since Paleolithe , and it is highly unplausible for it to be in R1a LGM refuge and survive in such high percentage among Serbs and Croats . Only plausable explanation is that it has been carried by Sarmathians - it folow they movements. 
What makes you think I2a2 is originated in eats Europe?

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Read the link you will find that I is called "Balkanic " - so no it is not I2b or i2c


You should read more carefully.

Quotation from this paper:
"The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
frequency of 6% in the Ural area; see the Wikipedia and
Balanovsky I1a maps."

The Republic of Tatarstan (historical Volga Bulgaria) is located in the Volga area.

Here Balanovsky map for I1a

http://i50.tinypic.com/2hgst50.png

As you can see maximum is in the Volga area(Tatarstan and Chuvashia).

----------


## Bodin

> There are many problems with your link, first, the Tatars listed are NOT from Central Asia, they're from Eastern Europe, and even if we are to take their origins based on haplogroup N1c for example, the presence of this haplogroup is strong in Siberia and East Asia, not Central Asia or ancient Iranian territories in South Central Asia, mind you we have not ruled out whether this is N1c1 or not, if so, then it's Baltic-Slavic-Finnic, but I won't speculate on that since it says N1c.
> 
> On the same token, where on earth do you see I2a2? All I see is I*, what makes you think the Tatars are carrying I2a2? Even if they are carrying it, how can you use this as evidence when this haplogroup is so rare in Central Asia? I'm sorry but you have a very weak argument here.
> 
> 
> 
> The name sounds Russian to me, and I'm not sure which study it was, but I don't remember I2a2 in there, I think they had like 40% C3, anyways, to give you an idea about Kazakhstan Y-DNA, follow this link:
> 
> http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/12854-kz-dna/
> ...


Where did you get idea that Kurdic I could be I2c ?
I2c ( former I2*B ) was found only in LOW frequencies in Armenia , Georgia and Turkey and it cant be present in Kazahstan or Ossetia or Kurdistan ( it is partualy in Iran and Iraq)
And there is themap that showing I2a in Caucasus and Kurdistan:
Haplogroup_I2a ydna.jpgNow if you still have some doubts , it is time for some proofs

----------


## Bodin

> You should read more carefully.
> 
> Quotation from this paper:
> "The other two subhaplogroups of I are less frequent in
> East Europe. The maximum area of I1a-M253 is in
> southern Scandinavia and that of I1b2-M223 is in
> Germany. Both have, however, a secondary maximum
> in the eastern parts of East Europe. I1a reaches as high
> values as 15% in the Volga area, and I1b2 reaches the
> ...


 No I1 around Volga coming from Volgash Germans , and it is in today Russian population around Volga , not Tatar . When they speack about Tatars they call they I " Balkanic" why would they call I1 Balkanic? 
Hier is map of I2a that show strong presence around Tatarstan :
Haplogroup_I2a ydna.jpg
I make mistake and confused Tatars from Kazan with Tatars from Kazakhstan , tanks again for corection , but on this map of I in Central Asia , there is I in NorthWest Kazakhstan :I u zap Aziji.jpg
Thanks for answering

----------


## Cobol19

> Where did you get idea that Kurdic I could be I2c ?
> I2c ( former I2*B ) was found only in LOW frequencies in Armenia , Georgia and Turkey and it cant be present in Kazahstan or Ossetia or Kurdistan ( it is partualy in Iran and Iraq)
> And there is themap that showing I2a in Caucasus and Kurdistan:
> Attachment 5151Now if you still have some doubts , it is time for some proofs


Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the *"SOURCES"*? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> No I1 around Volga coming from Volgash Germans , and it is in today Russian population around Volga , not Tatar . When they speack about Tatars they call they I " Balkanic" why would they call I1 Balkanic?


Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf

According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .

----------


## Cobol19

> Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf
> 
> According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .


Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.

Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.

EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:

I1a = I1
I1b = I2

That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.

----------


## Sile

> Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.
> 
> Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:
> 
> I1a = I1
> I1b = I2
> 
> That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-different...&

maybe this will help in your I

----------


## Cobol19

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-different...&
> 
> maybe this will help in your I


Interesting, but that's not what the link GloomyGonzales provided indicates, it's showing I1a peaking in Scandinavia (Being the I1), and I1b peaking in the Balkans (Classical I2), then again I did not look at the date (2004), in other words these were probably the older designations.

----------


## Sile

> Interesting, but that's not what the link GloomyGonzales provided indicates, it's showing I1a peaking in Scandinavia (Being the I1), and I1b peaking in the Balkans (Classical I2), then again I did not look at the date (2004), in other words these were probably the older designations.


Maybe as this link below states ( 2005 ) that dna decays the further it streches ( distance ) from east to west and less from a north to south line

http://remed.charite.de/fileadmin/us...wer%202005.pdf

----------


## GloomyGonzales

Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:

*UPDATE III (No European influence):*

Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus. 

It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).


This seems to put *a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe* east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture.


Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

----------


## Asturrulumbo

> Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:
> 
> *UPDATE III (No European influence):*
> 
> Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus. 
> 
> It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
> 
> 
> ...


That's another reason I believe there have been no Indo-European (or at least Iranian) migrations across the Caucasus...

----------


## Bodin

> Bodin, you don't get it do you? You're just telling me things without sources, that map does not prove a thing, who created it and what are the *"SOURCES"*? Unless you have the source for the study to back you and that map up, it's simply useless, you CANNOT make up things just cause you feel like it.


 Maciamo made it on this forum , now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b? 
Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
Thanks for answering

----------


## Kardu

> I assume that you are either kit #164204 or kit #47732 in the FTDNA I2*/new I2b/new I2c Project. You can update your haplogroup identification to I2c; former I2*-B is thoroughly confirmed to be L596+ L597+. I agree that it is a back-migration, by the way, but despite thinking a lot about how it got back to Asia, I'm still stumped. How yes no and I have talked a bit about it on this forum and figured that Crete could have been an important place along its migration path, and that its spread must have something to do with seafaring. It could have started its migration as far away as Germany, as that's around where its brother clusters are centered.



Yes, you are right I am I2c now :)
As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta. 
P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)

----------


## Bodin

> Here's the link to paper discussing I haplogroup distribution in Europe.
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA...oupISpread.pdf
> 
> According this paper Tatars have only 2,4% of I-P37 (former I2a2). I think this small amount of I-P37 they got as a result of intermarriages with Russians living in the Republic of Tatarstan (Russians make about 50% of all the population in Tatarstan) .


That paper shows for Tatars 1,6% of I M170 ( undetermined I ) , 0,8% of I M253 (I1 - Germanic ) , and 2,4% of I P37( I2a1b -Dinaric ) , all together 4,8% of I , and paper that I posted 16% of " Balkanic " I . That is probably because your paper speack about all Tatars , and mine only about Kazan Tatars . 
What is more important there is NO I M223 - I2b amongst Tatars

----------


## Kardu

According to just published Yunusbayev et al. paper there is some I2a among Andis, Lezgins, Kara Nogays, Abazins, Adyghe, Balkars, Abnhazians, Kabardins, Karachays, Georgians and Ossetians. This might indicate Sarmatian origins.

----------


## Bodin

> Thanks for providing that, it looks like I2b seems to be the most common I2 clade in West Asia, which if we bring the Kurds into this, one of the Kurds I know that tested with 23andMe also carries I2b1, I have yet to come across any who tested I2a and I won't speculate that those high I* numbers are I2a unless I see proper sources.
> 
> Though to be very honest with you, I'm surprised how I2b seems more common than I2a in the Middle East, but whatever.
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like these are new designations:
> 
> I1a = I1
> I1b = I2
> 
> That makes more sense now, so I1b is I2*.


Yes I1a in this paper is nowadays I1 , and I1b* is nowadays I2a1b ( former I2a2 Din ) , look at designations M253 and P37

----------


## Kardu

Our data on a STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree generated bu Marko Heinila's calculator. Note there are many Europeans there.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

----------


## Bodin

> Yes, you are right I am I2c now :)
> As for the back migration indeed it has to be from Balkans via Anatolia. Their coming to Georgia can be associated with Meskhi/Moskhi expansion which took place 2800 years ago. Interestingly enough the other I2c Georgian, who by the way really belongs to an old princely family, comes originally from Meskheti region of Georgia. And hometown of my ancestors is very close to old Meskhi capital city of Mtskheta. 
> P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)


Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings

----------


## Bodin

> Here's a part from another one interesting Balanovsky's research:
> 
> *UPDATE III (No European influence):*
> 
> Another interesting discovery of this study is the lack of European influence in the populations of the North Caucasus. 
> 
> It seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).
> 
> 
> ...


Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also Russians

----------


## Kardu

> Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings


There are at least 2 Bulgarians on that tree. Of course it's not many.

----------


## Bodin

> There are at least 2 Bulgarians on that tree. Of course it's not many.


Thanks for sharing that knowledge , so we could asume that I2c lived on Balkans since Paleolithe , and we should ask Paleolithic I1a1b-Din somewhere else . Thanks for answering

----------


## sparkey

> Is there any I2c on Balkans ? I hasnt hierd for that untill now , and i would like to know . My familly also use to had nobility status, there are even legends that we are descendants of kings


If there is I2c in the Balkans, it is exceedingly rare. The FTDNA Project has members (all in the same young B cluster as the Armenians and Georgians) from Ukraine, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Russia, Poland, Belarus... so it may be more accurate to say Carpathian or broadly East European than Balkan.

----------


## sparkey

> Thanks for sharing that knowledge , so we could asume that I2c lived on Balkans since Paleolithe , and we should ask Paleolithic I1a1b-Din somewhere else . Thanks for answering


I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are _very_ Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.

Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.

----------


## Kardu

> I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are _very_ Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.
> 
> Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.


According to that STR/SNP maximum likelihood tree the oldest I2 cluster/trmrca appear to be in Scotland/England/Spain. As to the old I2* people, my line is a standalone and TMRCA with the rest is about 3000 years old.

----------


## Cobol19

> Maciamo made it on this forum


What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.




> now please explain how could it be any other than I2a2-Din- give your reasons why would you believe it could be I2c or I2b? 
> Why do you question it is I2a2-Din , I dont see any other posibility , please show me where is my mistake if you know .
> Thanks for answering


Your mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.

The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.

----------


## Goga

> P.S. I am also a descendant from an old noble family so maybe there is some truth in I2c and nobility connection after all:)


Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!

BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!

----------


## Goga

> and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.


No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.

----------


## Cobol19

> No, there's only 4-5% of I in Turkey and Armenians. I in Turks and Armenians is just a geneflow. But there is 16-33% of I in Kurdistan. 20% of I is just to much for a nation of 40 million people to be just a geneflow + I is everywhere in Kurdistan, not just in one area. Sure Kurds are West Asians like Turks or Armenias, but Turks, Armenians, Kurds have all diferent ancestors.
> Turks are from the Seljuks, Armenias are from the Urartu, while Kurds are from the Mitanni & Medes.


If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).

----------


## Goga

> If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).


How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.
Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.

According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!

Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Tread speack only about J and G haplogrououp , and where did you found that maps? There has to be significant R1a1a M198 and some I P37 because of simple facts - there are also Russians


1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html

2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.

----------


## Cobol19

> How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.
> 
> Maybe is I in Kurdistan from the Mitanni or maybe from the so called Cimmerians. Many people think that all these folks were Iranic. So it doesn't matter where it's from. It's all Iranic.
> 
> According to me there're 3 types of Iranic folks. 1 type is Central Asian one. 1 type in West Asian. And 1 type is North Caucausian. R1a connect all these types, but the're also some differences among them. But the original Iranians came from West Asia, this is what I do believe!


There was no such thing as Iranian people in West Asia before 1500 BC, if you're referring to the Mitanni, their records indicate that they were Indo-Aryans (Similar to the Sanskrit folks that migrated to India), not Iranians, though even that is still debatable, but for the sake of whatever Indo-Iranian words were found, they were Indo-Aryan words.

As far as how I know where the Medes/Persian came from, before they were known as Medes or Persians, they were ancient Iranian tribes, the most leading theory on the homeland of the Iranian people is the BMAC (Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex), this falls around modern day Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmenistan/Tajikistan, not to mention that the name for this region during those times was "Aria", which is the title that these Medes and Persians used to call themselves, there was no such name in Ukraine/Russia, so if you think that's where they came from, you're wrong.




> Turks and Armenians are NOT Iranic.


Never said they were, and for the record, I never dismissed haplogroup I* being included among ancient Medes, I just said this haplogroup is not an original Iranic lineage, meaning it was incorporated into the Iranian population in West Asia and not come from their ancestral lands, because if this lineage was Iranic all along it would exist among Eastern Iranians too, but that's not the case.

----------


## Goga

Are you a Kurdish hater or what?

Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were *proto*-*Indo-Iranic*. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!

----------


## Cobol19

> Are you a Kurdish hater or what?


That was a stupid comment, where in any of my posts indicates that I'm a Kurdish hater? On the contrary, I always look forward for Kurdish DNA results, what I am is someone who is not biased, I'm interested in real facts and will tell like like how I see it.




> Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were *proto*-*Indo-Iranic*. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!


I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061

----------


## Goga

> I never said they were from India, I said the evidence found indicates an Indo-Aryan connection, not an Iranian one, what is this evidence? Here you go:
> 
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/596061


Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranics. And proto-Iranics where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks. 
So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where the proto-Indo-Europeans came from.
I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!

----------


## Cobol19

> Of course there's. I believe that Aryans who invaded India were very much closely related to Aryan Mitanni.
> But the thing is to find out where these Mitanni came from. Mitanni were one of the earliest proto-Iranic. And proto-Iranic where Indo-European folks, who were closely related to other proto-Indo-European folks. 
> So accroding to me, if you want to find the original homeland of the Mitanni. You must to find out where proto-Indo-European came from.
> I think that the Mitanni who settled in the Mesopotamia were not far away from their proto-Indo-European URHEIMAT. Be it South Caucasus, be it North Caucasus, be it the Iranian plateau. It's all in West Asia. So according to me proto-IE folks were West Asian!


You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).

Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.

----------


## Goga

> You're mixing way too many different things here, first, the Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni besides the fact that they passed some sort of language down to them, mind you by the time the Mitanni have been speaking their Indo-Aryan language (If at all they spoke one), it would have already been way too different from the Proto-Indo-European, you also need to remember that around that same time-period, an even earlier Indo-European language was recorded that was not Indo-Iranian, which was the Anatolian branch (Hittite).
> 
> Since the diversity of ancient Indo-Iranian languages peak in South-Central Asia, it seems pretty logical to me that the people who spoke the Mitanni and Sanskrit languages arrived from this same place, those who spoke Sanskrit crossed the Indus and into India while the Mitanni crossed the Iranian plateau and into West Asia.


What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.

Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.

If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.

I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!

Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?

----------


## Alan

I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.

----------


## Alan

> How do you know that the Medes came from Central Asia? Are you sure about that? There's very much I in West Persia, Teheran, where Persians & Medes lived. In Iran live many Iranic folks.


Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.

----------


## Cobol19

> What? Proto-Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with the Mitanni? I'm sory, but that's crazy.


Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE

Do you understand? No.




> Mitanni spoke proto Indo-Iranian language or even proto-Iranic language. Of course there are some similarities between Sanskrit and Mitanni, becasue 2 languages came directly from the same source.


Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.




> If you say that Mitanni has nothing to do with proto-IE , than you can also say that Sanskrit has nothing to do with IE folks. Because Sanscrit is proto-Indo-Aryan.


Sanskrit clearly comes from Indo-Aryan, Mitanni (Based on whatever words were found), also shares this Indo-Aryan connection, which I should add, was mostly just the names of Gods that were worshiped by the Vedic Aryans (Sanskrit speakers), so in reality, there's no strong evidence on whether the Mitanni spoke an Indo-Iranian at all, but if they did, it would have been comparable to the Vedic Aryans that migrated to India, not the language of the Medes/Persians.




> I don't understand why don't you can accept that Kurds are Iranic and related to other Iranics and other Indo-Europeans, from Europe to Central Asia!


I accept the Kurds as an Iranian West Asian people, meaning the majority of their genes are native to West Asia but they carry some Indo-Iranian genes, if anything, I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.




> Somehow you tend to link Kurds only to Central Asians/India, what are your motives for that (agenda)?


I don't try to link the Kurds with anything, but if you were to ask, the Kurds are closer to some of their non-Indo-European neighboring populations such as Turks, Assyrians, Lebanese etc than they are to actual Indo-Europeans such as the Russians or Ukrainians for example, this goes to show you that just because certain groups speak a certain language, it does not mean much in genetics.

----------


## Alan

> Are you a Kurdish hater or what?
> 
> Mitanni were not Indo-Aryan. I think they were Iranic, but it's also possible that they were *proto*-*Indo-Iranic*. Ancestors of Iranics and Indo-Aryans. Mitanni were NOT Indo-Aryan = from India!


Please calm down and behave yourself better. Sometimes you seem very paranoid. I dont know what the problem is, he insulted Kurds just because he was not with your opinion? The Mitannis belonged to the same wave of Aryans which migrated INTO India NOT out of India. This is only a wishful thinking of Indocentrist. The Mitanni scripts are as old as those from Sanskrit India. Mitanni and Sanskrit both probably belonged to the same wave but have gone different ways.

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## Cobol19

> I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.


You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.

The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.

----------


## Alan

> You're right that anything is possible, but I'm in agreement with you that it's a gene wave from the Balkans, as you pointed out one example, there has been many cases of population movements from the Balkans to Anatolia.
> 
> The other thing is, for all we know, this number of haplogroup I* could be a lucky lineage (Which happens often believe it or not), what I mean is a man get's to have many children, and eventually their lineage grows strong in a culture.


This is also a possibility.

About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved. If we take out the very recent East Asian gene flow from this region, than it remain only the West Asian(ANI included) and North European component. What indicates a West Asian-North European fusion which created the Proto-Iranians.

I already explained this here.



> the "North European" gene came most probably when the Iranic tribes which evolved from the Andronovo culture, which was a secession of the Yamna Culture. The Yamna culture itself evolved as a cross between the PIE European Maykop culture and native European hunters and gatherers. The Kurgan culture was based on Maykop culture thats why the Kurgans are also sometimes reffered as Maykop culture. 
> 
> So when this Kurgan culture, which was based on Maykop and native hunters and gatherers expanded to the East and formed the Andronovo culture, the Aryan(Indo Iranic) tribes evolved. Those Aryan tribes belonged mainly to the West Asian and North European components. Those Aryan tribes mixed with the native Populations of the Regions they moved to. in Kurdish case it was the Gutians/Phrygians/Hurrians for example. Thats why you find among Kurds more North European component than among non partly Iranic tribes(and even Iranians)

----------


## Cobol19

> This is also a possibility.
> 
> About the origin of Iranic tribes, I already explained very well what I do think about this. The Proto-Iranic Urheimat was most probably in northern parts of Central Asia. However were did those People come from and how did they evolved.
> 
> I already explained this here.


I think we pretty much agree on the bigger picture, I too believe the Indo-Europeans lived around the Yamna Culture which prior to that, perhaps a clan of men dominated by R1a1a arrived from Anatolia through the Caucasus (In this case, the PIE being the Maykop culture as you suggested), from there the Andronovo folks developed into Proto-Indo-Iranian, and by interaction with the BMAC natives the Indo-Iranians developed, those who separated earlier and migrated down to India became the Indo-Aryans (Which some of them may have migrated to West Asia in the form of Mitanni), later on from the same area the Iranian expansions take place all over, to West Asia in the form of Medes/Persians (Later on Parthians), and to other parts such as the Eurasian steppes, Central Asia, Siberia, and even West Asia in the form of Scythians, also other Iranian groups that remained around the homeland were Sogdians, Bactrians etc.

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## Kardu

> Which family? If it's not to private for you. Don't say Bagrationi. A lot Georgians belong to a noble family, maybe Georgia has the highest nobility rating in the whole world!
> 
> BTW, a majority of the French kings were G2!


Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi :) Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...

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## Goga

> Old nobility but certainly not Bagrationi :) Anyway old Bagrationi male line ended with the death of Prince Demna in the 12the century AD. Current Bagrationis are descendants of David Soslan, prince of ossetes, the second husband of Queen Tamar. David Soslan could have had Sarmat, Hun, Khazar, Chechen etc. ancestry...


Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!

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## Goga

> Teheran is a multicultural city. MANY Kurds or People with Kurdish origin live there. Surprisingly Teheran and Esfahan are the only cities where some I* was found. Surprisingly Esfahan was just 50 Years ago half Kurdish today still 1/5 of its population is Kurdish. Do you know the Mother of Benazir Buttho? She is Kurdish from Isfahan. She belongs to the Kurdish Isfahani Clan which was settled throughout Central Asia. In fact only Cities were there is a Kurdish presence showed some I*. In all other major Iranian cities I is very absent.


Ok. thanks.

Of course I know Buttho. She was very proud that her mom was Kurdish.




> I think the ancient Hurrians and other similar ancient West Asian populations probably played a bigger role in Kurdish DNA than the ancient Iranians, this has been proven by the autosomal DNA which shows mostly West Asian.


My friend, you're free to think what ever you want. But there's a possibility that the ancient proto-Iranic folks were West Asian or had much West Asian DNA! And that proto-IE folks had many West Asian DNA too.

So West Asian DNA in Kurds is not ONLY from the Hurrians but also from Iranic peoples.

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## Kardu

> Thanks. I think that the old Bagrationi's were G2a folks!


:) Why would they be? Anything is possible...

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## Goga

> :) Why would they be? Anything is possible...


True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!

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## Kardu

> True, but G2a is Caucasian and 31% or maybe more of all Georgians belong to G2a!


I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too:)

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## Goga

> I'm afraid we are going off-topic here but I'd like to tell you that Bagrationi's themselves believed to be descendants of Biblical King David. Even if they were ethnic Georgians the location where they come from is a hotbed of J1* and Caucasian R1b. I2c would be a good candidate too:)


Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in *4th* century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.

But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.

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## Kardu

> Yes, I know that the Bagrationi dynasty was the longest-reigning royal family in the Caucasus (and in Europe). Their name existed already in *4th* century, but to claim that you're descendant of Biblical King David is crazy.
> 
> But you're right that Bagrationi could be also Caucasian J1, J2 or R1b.


Considering that we have in Georgia a Jewish community with well-documented history of 26 centuries, Bagrationis' claim might had some ground.
There are graves of pre-tvelfth century kings in Georgia, perhaps one day we'll be allowed to conduct paleo-dna analysis and the truth will be known.

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## Bodin

> I2c as a Balkans refuge subclade is possible but unlikely IMHO, since its older clusters are _very_ Western and its most closely related subclade, I2b-ADR, is Central. Though, there's been enough bottlenecking that we can't really extrapolate back to the Paleolithic easily.
> 
> Nordtvedt guesses a Mediterranean route with a Western or Central MRCA location for I2c and a Northeastern European (somewhere around Belarus) MRCA location for I2a-Din, see here. That is based strictly on SNP hierarchy and STR diversity so it's unbiased-ish.


Thats interesting thanks for sharing.

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## Bodin

> What are the sources? Anyone with good designing skills can make a map, but what studies are these maps based on? I ask for the source, not a map.
> 
> Your mistake is you have no sources, the sources you're providing don't say I2a2, they say I*, this I* could be I2a2, I2a*, I2b, I2c, so on, in other words you're basing this on speculations, which are NOT facts, but rather guesses, a fact is when you have proper evidence, until you provide the evidence that the majority are I2a2, there's no need to speculate.
> 
> The other thing is, EVEN if I2a2 is found in Anatolia, what makes you think it did not enter Anatolia from the Balkans? In fact that's most likely the case, since it's rarity in Central Asia and other Iranian populations such as Pashtuns, Tajiks, Pamiris, Balochis, etc tells me that this lineage is not really one of the components among the Iranian populations, and its presence among the Kurds is the same reason why it's present among the Armenians, Turks, and other Anatolian populations, it's a gene wave from the Balkans.


 Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.

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## Bodin

> If you're trying to sell me the "Haplogroup I comes from Medes", you fail, it's a gene wave from the Balkans, whether it's 16% or 3%, it does not change where it came from, if you had told me lineages like R1a1a, J2a, R2a, or L3, I would say you have a point, but I2 is super rare in South Central Asia, that's where the Medes AND the Persians come from, and that's also the place where most Iranian people originated (Scythians included according to Herodotus).


Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on

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## Cobol19

> Map is beter prove than no prove - and that is what is you ofering , give any REASON why should it be I2c or I2b when they both are extremly rare .No it couldnt be on Balkans since LGM because it is to young - it is estimated as 2.500 years old and thats to young . If she would be on Balkans before VI century , than old Balkan population would be 90% of today Balkan population , which is inplausible . Prove I2a1b-Din is from Balkan.


The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?




> Scythians and Persians were R1a . Like I said there is no way I2a1b is from Balkans . PROVE it is from Balkans if you claim so . Are you Turkic ? You just criticize every evidence and no providing any of your on


I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.

----------


## Bodin

> 1. I have already provided you the link to the Balanovsky's paper where you can find these maps and conclusions made on their analysis. It looks like you are not prone to read papers through. Try again: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05...-caucasus.html
> 
> 2. About Russians and I-P37. Not all Russians have considerable amounts of I-P37 but mainly those who live in historical Russian regions (regions of the first migration waves of Slavs in Russia). The closer to Ukrain and Belarus the more amount of I-P37 you can find but if you move further to the North and to the East from the historical Russian regions you can find much more I-253 than I-P37.


1)No I read it realy god first time , but I believed you will understand you mistake . Well hier is the quote ( just below your maps ) from that tread :"seems that both R1a1a-M198 and I2a-P37 have a major barrier eastward in the Don river. Please note that the former is not strictly a European haplogroup, but it nonetheless experiences a massive drop in frequency, and is negligible everywhere except in Abkhaz-Circassians (NW Caucasus; 10.3-19.7%), with an outlier in Dargins (22%).



This seems to put *a limit on the origin of any hypothetical movements across the Eurasian steppe* east of the Don river, as haplogroup I2a-P37 is largely absent in Central Asia, and occurs 3 times in 1,525 individuals in this sample. So, while there have been proposals of a Central European origin of some steppe pastoralist groups, these are hard to reconcile with this picture."
So what he says hier is that there is I2a2 in Caucasus , but in low frequencies , except in Dargins and Abhkaz were it is realy high . I already provided papers that show high i amongs Ossetians , but only in two aerias Digora and Ardon( up to 30% ) , rest of North Ossetians and all south Ossetians have no I ( because of heavy mixing with Caucasian populations - which is shown by lot of G , actualy South Ossetians could be native population that just accepted Iranic languague ) - and that would produce low I2 in overall Ossetian population - same thing with Tatars from our previous dispute .
Thank you for evidence there is I2 in Central Asia - 3/ 1525 , but that is aeria where old population was mostly exchanged by incoming Turks and then mongols.
2)Yes on North there is less I2 but there is also less R1a( 30%) and high N- there is a lot of Russicized Fins , But east was setled by Russians from that aerias that you call " historicaly Russian "

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## Bodin

> Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE
> 
> Do you understand? No.
> 
> 
> 
> Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.
> ...


O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .

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## Cobol19

> O, now proto- IndoIranian is linked with Andronovo culture - west Siberia and not to Persian province Aria( where you say Persians and Medes - speackers of that languague coming from ) ? There is some links of Kurds with neighbors but differences are masive - realy different nations and origins. .


That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?

- Proto-Indo-European
-- Indo-European
--- Proto-Indo-Iranian
---- Indo-Iranian
----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.

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## Bodin

> I already explained very well what or who Medes were. I still dont understand how people insist on this Mede I2a Kurdish theory. In fact we cant be sure and it is only a theory. The I2a among Kurds could indeed be a geneflow from Balkan. I dont have to remind you Guys that beside Alan, Scythian, Cimmerian tripes also other existed. Another of them are the Karduchis from Gordyeme, Gordiane,Gorduene, Gordion in Southeast Anatolia which according to Strabo got its name from the Phrygian disgtrict of Gordyaea . And we all know that Phrygians originated from Balkans. This could also be a explain for I* among Kurds. However it is also possible that I* came with Cimmerians or Scythians of Media who settled in Kurdistan. Everything is possible and all of this theories are speculations for now.


Ofcourse it is theory , we are hier to discus theories. I2a cant be on Balkans such long period - its old only 2.500 years , and wouldnt Phrygians or Cymmerians give it to Turks also ? There is no way I2a2 would live in hart of R1a Urheimat - steppes north of Black sea and not get mixed with it - only 5% of Slavic R1a Serbia .

----------


## Bodin

> Read what I said again, the meaning of it is that you're mixing time-periods, a better example of this is like comparing the modern English speakers to an the Anglo-Saxson speakers from 1000 years ago, while modern English does indeed come from Anglo-Saxon, the two languages are NOT the same, this is what Old English sounded like:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVyXDYp60BE
> 
> Do you understand? No.
> 
> 
> 
> Proto-Indo-Iranian is also a different time-period, the Proto-Indo-Iranian is connected with the Andronovo culture, not Mitanni.
> ...


So , now proto Indo European is from Andronovo - west Siberia and Medes and Persians are from Persian satrapy Ariana - and again it is realy comon name amongs IE speackers
Kurds are geneticaly trealy different than they neighbours , why comparing them with Russians , nobody said Kurds are Slavic?

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## Bodin

> The map is not a proof when it has no proper sources to back it up, I can make up my own man right now, does that make it evidence too?
> 
> 
> 
> I provide no evidence? How fitting lol, here you go:
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf
> 
> The current I2a1b is haplogroup I1b-M26, which is the former designation for I2a2, it peaks in frequency and diversity in Southeast Europe.


 
No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe

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## Bodin

> That's Proto-Indo-Iranian, not Iranian, do you know anything about language families?
> 
> - Proto-Indo-European
> -- Indo-European
> --- Proto-Indo-Iranian
> ---- Indo-Iranian
> ----- Indo-Aryan / Iranian
> ------ Persian/Mede fall under the Iranian branch.


Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves

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## Cobol19

> No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
> You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe


Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.

----------


## Cobol19

> No I2a1b is I P37 it peaks in southeastern Europe and it former designation is I2a2 Din and before that I1b and I M26 is now known as I2a1a and it peaks in Sardinia and some aerias in Spain . You realy have toubles with designations . I1b(XM26) in this paper means I1b ( Old designation for I2a1) without (X) M26 . This paper prove my point there is high I2a1b Din in SerboCroatian lands and it is lower in neighboring nonSerboCroatian lands - if it is not haplogroup that Serbs and Croats bringed on Balkans it would be very strange . It is also outdated - I2a1b Din cant be on Balkans since Paleolithe since it estimated age is 2.500 years .
> You only argument is density of I2a1b Din on Balkans , but highest density of R1b is in west Europe - which doesnt mean it is there since Paleolithe


Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:

I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b

Look at the link again:

http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf

I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.

The I* that exists in West Asia is probably mostly I2c and I2a1b, and it's not strange that it came from Southeast Europe since that's where it peaks.




> Do you know anything about genetic , archeology and history ? Scythians spocked Iranian , and they were direct descendants of Andronovo culture peoples , and direct ancestors of Slavs - look for DNA researches of Scythian graves


According to ancient Andronovo and Scythian DNA, I2a1b has nothing to do with them, only R1a1a and haplogroup C* to a smaller extent.

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## sparkey

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of _diversity_ of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

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## zanipolo

> Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of _diversity_ of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.
> 
> That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?


Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from. 
I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
Thats how I understood it

----------


## sparkey

> Bodin, did not say slavs brought I2a-din to the balkans, but he said Sarmatians did, of which Serbians and Croats descented from. 
> I agree with Bodin to a point. I agree with you that R1a is not "just" a slavic haplotype, but refers to a slavic-germanic-dacian type along with other haplotypes
> Thats how I understood it


Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.

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## zanipolo

> Yeah, I know he thinks the Sarmatians brought it, I was arguing that he shouldn't be dismissing the Slavs as another possibility... in fact, I find the Slavs more likely a possibility unless we get more data on Eastern I2a-Din that indicates otherwise.


you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas

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## sparkey

> you do realise, that whatever choice we make, it indicates that I2a-din was not present in the western balkans during roman times. With that in mind and following the Uterice culture scholars. It means that the western culture was I1 or whatever was in the bohemian-pannonian areas


Yeah, no matter what we do, we end up with the Balkans having a lot of Classical/Medieval input and less Paleolithic/Neolithic/Bronze Age input than we might expect. I suspect that the Y-DNA frequencies across the Balkans were a lot more like what they are in Albania now before this input, that is, less I2 and R1a, and more R1b, J2, J1, and E1b.

(I1? Not really, I1 is also fairly young and would have been largely confined to a smallish area around Denmark/Germany/Sweden/etc. until the Migration Period).

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## Pyrub

The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.

I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.

1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans. 
2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.

If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.

The region of Croatia with the highest I2a2 is Dalmatia and Hercegovina.

To the West of this region we have the Adriatic sea.
To the East of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the North of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.
To the South of this region we have the Dinaric Alps.

In Slavonia, although similar language, and also the genetic isolation of communism we show much higher frequencies of western european admixture. Slavonia lacks geographic isolation.

In Serbia, which shares the same language, we have higher rates of E1b1b and other non I2a2 haplogroups. Serbia lacks clear geographic boundaries.

There is no evidence that I2a2 came from Goths or Slavs or any other ancient people that supposedly invaded the Balkans. There's no evidence that this part of the Balkans was ever invaded, apart from Roman conquests, which show no genetic footprints and Turkish conquests, which show very little genetic footprints.

It's pretty pathetic to attempt to say that while the Romans and Turks showed no genetic footprints, that some fantasy people invaded and footnotes in thousand year old books prove evidence of this invasion. Until someone shows me any evidence for this hypothesis, i can't take it seriously.

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## Sile

> The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.
> 
> I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.
> 
> 1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans. 
> 2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
> 3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.
> 
> If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.
> ...


your point 1 - we can agree with this until further evidence arrives.

2 - languages exist based on the government in power, if the government shows genocidial tendencies to NOT allow these other languages to be taught in schools, then the language would die. Since most nations practice this form of Genocide on cultures within their nation. what kind of democracy do we have.?
I am not NOT referring to migrational languages. The only reason that celtic and/or latin did not remain in vogue, was that it was used solely as a commerce language. Slavic was forced by the sword to be used, thats why it dominated .


3- you are joking? . An area which was infested with Illyrian tribes , which gave the macedonians and Romans much trouble to conquer .

You do know that between the adriatic sea and the dinaric mountains is only about 50Kms , actually between 1 to 60Kms
What about the rest of the western balkans?

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## Bodin

> Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:
> 
> I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b
> 
> Look at the link again:
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf
> 
> I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.
> ...


 :Laughing:  yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

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## Bodin

> Bodin, I'll make it very simple for you:
> 
> I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b
> 
> Look at the link again:
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/rus_anthro/yugo.pdf
> 
> I1b (Which is I2a2) peaks in countries like Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia, Serbia, and Macedonia, the lineage that peaks in Sardinia is I2a1a.
> ...


 I was allways saying to you that Scythian ( and Slavic)DNA is R1a1 ( and probably some N and Q ) , I never said that I2a1b is Scythain or Slavic , I said it is *SARMATHIAN* . Do you read my treads at all ? Or you just love to argue ?

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## Bodin

> Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of _diversity_ of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.
> 
> That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?


Well I wouldnt call it Northern Slavic DNA - highets frequency of I2a1b is in Ukraine and Moldova - Sarmathian habitat , while it is much decreased in North Russia - actualy there is much stronger Germanic and Finnic DNA .

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## Bodin

> Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of _diversity_ of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.
> 
> That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?


Well hier is reason why I dismis Slavs as carriers of I2a1b -1) there is no archeological evidence of any numerous Slavic settling on Balkans 2) Serbs and Croats are mentioned by Pliny like Sorabi and Heruatas - Sarmathian tribes and 3) and most important - Slavic DNA in Serbia , Bosnia ,and all over Balkans is not more than 5% of total population ( except Croatia and Slovenia - but Croatia incorporated Slavonia - part of Slavic Balaton duchy , and Avars settled Slovenia with Slavs - like the name of both Slavonia and Slovenia says), while in Serbia , Croatia and Bosnia , there is over 40% of I2a1b ( if that would be whole incoming population there would be 89% of I2a1b and 11% of Slavic R1a- ofcourse R1a had comed in other Slavic tribes to like Moravci and Timochani that comed before Serbs ) , and in Slavic populations there is no more than 16% of I2a1b and over 50% of R1a ( if that would be total Slavic population ratio would be 25% I2a1b to 75%R1a ) - only explanation is mixing of diferent populations not same population 
4)If I2a1b was in Ukraine since LGM it would have to be lot more mixed with R1a ( Yamna culture is proto IE - R1a carriers ) - so there is no way Serbs would have only 5% of slavic R1a 
Thats my main reasons I dont believe I2a1b is Slavic , but reminescence of Sarmathians that lived on North coast of Black sea before Slavs - either tru mixing of Sarmathians whit Slavs during they rule over them , either tru Russian conqueste of population North of Black sea and slavization

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## Bodin

> The fact that E1b1b is as rare in Hercegovina as it is in Austria or other parts of northern Europe. That R1b is largely absent, as is R1a shows that there was very little gene flow from Southern Balkans to Central Balkans and Western Europe to Central Balkans.
> 
> I don't know why we're still discussing the same stupid arguments that have no evidence supporting them.
> 
> 1) There is no evidence that I2a2 was brought by Slavs to the Balkans. 
> 2) Language doesn't prove genetic origin. (Gaelic has lost favor in Ireland and was replaced by English in the last 200 years, it's a dying language).
> 3) Basic evolutionary genetics suggest that Hercegovina and Dalmatia were one of the more difficult places to colonize due to geographic isolaton.
> 
> If any of you have taken any evolutionary genetics courses, which seems unlikely, you will know that a major factor that stops gene flow is geographic isolation. This is caused by geographic barriers to gene flow (mountains, oceans, etc). This is pretty simple to understand.
> ...


Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes 
Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.

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## Pyrub

> Well Herzegovina and Dalmatia were not realy isolated - the richest cityes were on Dalmathian coast - lots of Roman emperors were from Dalmatia and Balkans , Dalmathia was center of ostrogothic conquest , Dalmatia sufer most of Avar atacks( Avar took Dalmatian prisoners in Panonia give them freedom and make a whole new tribe out of them ), than comed Croatians and after them Serbs . You forgot to mention Albania that is realy isolated and had highest E1b1b in Balkans , and they are also Illyrian . Sarmathians is not imaginary nation , it is nation that use to hold whole European Russia and Poland from Caucasus to Baltic sea ( Oceanus Saramathicus in ancient sources ) . Sources write about 500.000 of archers just in Alan army. Do you believe that great number of peoples just disapeared? And again Pliny write about Sorabi and Harauati , Sarmathian tribes 
> Also Mesapi in South Italy are Illyrian tribe that crossed Adriatic sea , and they dont have I2a1b . Romans use to use Balkanic populations like soldiers in West Europe - and there is no noticable I2a1b , which would be if it is Illyrian . Wales shows high E1b1b , which is explained by Mesian soldiers , and Messi were part Illyrians part Tracians , and there is still no I2a1b in Wales.


Listen my Srb friend.

Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?

What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.

I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.

If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.

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## Bodin

> Listen my Srb friend.
> 
> Go look at any map and tell me that Dalmatia and Hercegovina are not geographically isolated. This is pure nonsense. A country that isn't geographically isolate is Serbia. I'm really not sure whether or not to take that statement seriously. Do you know what geographic isolation is?
> 
> What it isn't is flat land. Which is most of Serbia. Kosovo seems like recent e1b1b arrival and if you think those dirty animals are Illyrian you're more brainwashed than anything. Look up where the capital of Illyria was. I don't care about Illyria but the absurdity of the argument that some people in Kosovo are Illyrian is laughable. Sources seem to point to Stolac, Hercegovina as the capital of Illyria. Which is off of the Neretva and easy access to the sea.
> 
> I have a theory that haplogroup I2 people are sea people. The haplogroup distribution seems to indicate that we are sea people. We were sea people in the days of the Roman empire and beyond. The coastal regions of Ukraine, Moldova are all sea areas. The Sardinian population could only be explained by haplogroup I2 being sea people. There must have been an i2 tribe that forked and voyaged to sardina and started a foundry effect population.
> 
> If you think 500,000 archers crossed the dinaric alps and conquered all of Bosna and coastal Croatia I think your imagination is very vivid. Archers are hardly effective in mountains and prone to attacks. It sounds and smells like a lie. The Turkish and roman footprints are almost none in the Balkans aside from Muslim bosnians. And that was hundreds of years of control.


Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population. 
Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio 
Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .

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## Bodin

Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?

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## zanipolo

> Yes friend they are isolated but less than Albania , or you do not agreed with that , Albania is isolated even todayand it had lot of E1b - most in Europe . What I tried to say is that they were realy rich provinces and they were main target for Avar attacks . Avar killed lot of Dalmatian population and then Croats and Serbs killed Avars and more old population. 
> Illyrians lived from Dalmatia to Albania , Dardani nation that lived on Kosovo and North Macedonia were Illyro- Thracians . Albanians speack branch of IE languague similar to no other - so it is most probably realy long on Balkans , they languague even shows similarities with Pelazg languague . Where did you think Albanians come from( you said they not Illyrians , so they had to come from somewhere ) - remember it had to be aeria with realy high E1b and IE languague similar to Albanian .
> Albanian suits are realy similar to Illyrian and customs like tatooing .Albanians get they name by Albanoi - Illyrian tribe in south Albania and they town Albanopolis
> Balkan i2a1b and Sardinian I2a1a separated from each other 12.000 years ago and that is realy long time to claim same culture .
> There is strong I2a1b in Bohemia , in Northwest Ukraine (Lviv district and Ivano-Frankovsk and that are not sea aerias ) and they are not even near any sea . Only ones rely god at sea during Midle ages were Neretlians , others were bether on land.
> Not only one time multitude of mounted archers crossed dinaric and burned Roman lands- Dalmatia( Bosnia and coastal Croatia ) - remember Huns ? Avars ? Do you believe they were also imagination , do they also smell like a lie .
> Emperor Hercleus called Serbs and Croats to settle on Balkans as shield against Avar attacks ( after 626 attack on Constantinopolis ) , and they do and Avars never again attacked that city , so it was not conquering they were given lands by emperor if they clean them of Avars .Read De administratio imperio 
> Emperor Constantine( IV century) settled 500.000 Yazigi in Balkans provinces - so there was some Sarmathian DNA on Balkans before coming of Serbs and Croats .
> Who says there is no Roman influence on Balkans - on what data you base that statement? Turks didnt settled on Balkans , they just conquered it and use native nobility converted to islam ( or not ) , to control lands - Bosniacs do not have lot biger Turkic influence than Serbs or Greeks , and it is realy small in all Balkanic nations .


If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?

E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration

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## rms2

> Question : if I2a1b is carried by Slavs , why there is no I2a1b in Scythian graves , but almoust exclusivly R1a?


The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.

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## Bodin

> If E1b is Illyrian and this is albanian, then why is there less than 5% E1b in northern illyria and less than 10% in central illyrian lands?
> 
> E1b IMO was the ancient dardanians that migrated from anatolia. Albanians are from dacia/moesian ( paeonians) people that where pushed southwest by slavic/sarmatian migration


 What do you consider North Illyrian - I believe North Illyrians were in Noricum ( later they were Celtisized ) and Panonia , and there is 10% of E1b in Austria and Hungary , in some aerias even stronger .
If you consider Dalmatia and Herzegovina North and central Illyrian lands : they were heavily depopulated and almoust all population is replaced - hier is another proof fro that - there is almoust no R1b in Bosnia and Herzegovina , but if old population would still be there R1b would have to be significant - Celts were present in that aeria - lot of Celtic place names , but almoust no Celtic haplogroups . Also Romans had to left some R1b , but it seems they are all killed or resetled
Dardanians were of mixed Illyrian and Thracians origins , Panonians are Illyrian tribe . Also I already spocked about forming of new tribes by Romans after rebellion of Panonian and Illyrian rebelion 6.-9. AD - Thracian , Illyrian and Celtic tribes were mixed - so since than they would have almoust same haplogroups - there is no significant genetic diference betwen Thracians ( including Dacians ) , and Illyrians ( including Panonians)

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## Bodin

> The Scythians are believed to have been an Iranian-speaking people. So, I2a1b could be Slavic without turning up among the non-Slavic, Iranian-speaking Scythians.


But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ? 
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic

----------


## Cobol19

> Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of _diversity_ of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.
> 
> That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?


To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:

a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands. 

c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.

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## Cobol19

> yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
> So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
> How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?


No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence? 

Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.

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## Goga

> if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ? 
> Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic


there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.

According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:




> _Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:_
> 
> http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...w=1298&bih=595
> 
> 
> _Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language_:
> 
> http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...w=1298&bih=595

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## Goga

Also, Kurdish and Georgian mtDNA is very close to each other!

From: American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 112, Issue 1, May 2000.
Written: David Comas, Francesc Calafell, Nina Bendukidze, Lourdes Fañanás, Jaume Bertranpetit.




> _Abstract_
> 
> _Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences._
> 
> Am J Phys Anthropol 112:5–16, 2000. © 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc
> 
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-Z/abstract

----------


## rms2

> But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ? 
> Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic


"Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.

----------


## Bodin

> No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence? 
> 
> Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.


Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly. There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din , I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it. And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1b

----------


## Bodin

> there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.
> 
> According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:


 Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point . 
Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic

----------


## Bodin

> "Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.


Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically. 
Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague

----------


## Cobol19

> Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly.


There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.




> There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din ,


The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.




> I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it.


So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.




> And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1b


I got mixed up and made an error with the marker name (M26), which is due to the recent changes and the paper using the older designations, but to make it clear, I believe the recent I2a1b (Previous I2a2) came to West Asia from the Southeast Europe via the Balkans, and it had nothing to do with the original Iranian populations that migrated from South-Central Asia to West Asia (Early Medes/Persians).

----------


## Bodin

> To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:
> 
> a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).
> 
> b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands. 
> 
> c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.


You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there . I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICAL
And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )

----------


## Bodin

> There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.
> 
> The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
> 
> If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.
> 
> So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.
> ...


 I never said all I* in Kurdistan is I2a1b
Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*
It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?
How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?

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## Cobol19

> You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there .


*"Almost none"* does not mean *"None"*, the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.

The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.




> I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICAL


What's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.




> And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )


a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.

You see Bodin you have a problem with providing evidence, everything you say means absolutely nothing unless you show the evidence, you saying this stuff is like me saying there's I2a1b among Aboriginal Australians, will you believe it? No, so unless you have evidence, stop making up fairytales.

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## Bodin

> *"Almost none"* does not mean *"None"*, the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.
> 
> The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.
> 
> What's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.
> 
> a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
> b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
> c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.
> ...


No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble

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## Bodin

I made lapsus taping not Southwest Asia but South east . You also not proiding any evidence , there is more posibility there is I2a1b in Aboriginal Australians then it crossed from Balkans to Anatolia

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## Cobol19

> Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*


There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:

*Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)*
I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)

The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.




> It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?


The diversity of Iranian languages peak in South Central Asia, and according to Herodotus, that's where the Scythian homeland was before they left it due to wars with other Iranian tribes.




> How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?


The same way other haplogroups travel.

----------


## Cobol19

> No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble


Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.

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## Bodin

hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...726a.html#fig1
They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD 
And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :
I u Aziji.jpg
Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )
Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theory

----------


## Bodin

> There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:
> 
> *Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)*
> I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
> I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
> I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)
> 
> The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.
> 
> ...


When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not southeast Asia but Central Asia
I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia

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## rms2

> Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically. 
> Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague


I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.

No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, _you are a Slav_ (if you want to be).

But I am starting to get the picture that you are trying to sort out the ultimate origins of these haplogroups and connect them to ethnic groups. So, in that sense, you are saying that I2a1b is not truly Slavic in its origin. I think it has been a component in the Slavic profile for so long it's going to be hard to tease it apart from the "original Slavs", whoever and whatever they were.

I wish you luck!

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## Bodin

> Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.


It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
I say it simple : 
1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
Did you understod now?

----------


## Goga

> Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point . 
> Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic


My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.

And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!

Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.

----------


## Bodin

> I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.
> 
> No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, _you are a Slav_ (if you want to be).


Yes it is I2a1b in Slavic land , but I trying to say it is from Sarmathians.We speack about origins of I2a1b .
Yes you are Slave if you are born in Slavic country , but your ancestry is not Slavic , but I also say there was never Slavic land in Balkans , only languague . Languague do not determine nationality .

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## rms2

What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.

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## Bodin

> My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.
> 
> And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many tribes into Kurdistan!
> 
> If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
> But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!
> 
> Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.
> 
> I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.


Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds 
I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1b

----------


## Cobol19

> hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...726a.html#fig1
> They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD


First, this is not even 0.5%  :Laughing: 

Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.




> And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :
> Attachment 5161


First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.




> Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )


Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...climate-change




> Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theory


I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.




> When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
> Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not *southeast Asia but Central Asia*
> I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia


Where did I say Southeast Asia? I said South-Central Asia, this consists Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, South Kazakhstan, Eastern Iran, and Northern/Western parts of Pakistan.




> It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
> I say it simple : 
> 1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
> 2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
> Did you understod now?


What do Diodorus and Pliny have to do with haplogroup I2a1b?  :Laughing:

----------


## Goga

> Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
> And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds 
> I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1b


You're right!

----------


## Cobol19

> And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!


A gene flow and migration are pretty much the same thing, so yes, it was a gene flow.




> If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
> But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!


Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.




> I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.


It is the same origin, but surely, it's not an original Iranian lineage that's for sure.

----------


## Goga

> I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.


Why do you hate the Medes so much? I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.

Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.

WHAT makes you believe that the Medes are from Central Asia???

----------


## Goga

> Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.


Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!

And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!

----------


## Bodin

> What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.


I already posted my theory , but hier is another one for your stepson :

There is more reliable explanation of Sarmatian origins than that given by Herodotus( that they are descendants of Amazons and Scytians).Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .
I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland - Krakow provincea Ukraine - Lviv aeria and Slovakia( Tatras )-Bielochorbatoi and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus ( Red Ruthenia , Galicia ) - Boiki or Rusini named after Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Pliny say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes ,Macedonia after XIII century), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians (North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria , G could be Chimmerian- most of them finished on Caucasus after Lidians beated them ,Other higher than average densities of I occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there - Czech and Moravia , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family , Serbs coming from Boiki - Bohemia , Bavaria and Lusitania-Lužica in Germany ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani, Volga Tatars has high I) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia, Aragon , Basque), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Yazigian auxiliars after defeat against Marcus Aurelius- king Arthur) , Germany ( Serbs come on Balkans from river Elba-Laba , Sarland ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving - has nothing to do with Slavs .

Diferences Slavs - Serbs/Croats :Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .Slavic theory is based solely on languague , Sarmatians use to have more then one wife , while they use to fight , together with they Sarmatian wifes , Slavic wifes stayed at home briding childrens , so childrens had lurned Slavic languague , there is also other explanation that says Huns use Slavs like border guards ( it is proven Avars are ) , and small groups of Slavs transfered they languague like form of lingua Franca to conquered nations . It is proven that Slavic is very archaic - it has been spoken by small and closed group for over a millenium , it origins are proven to be around upper Pripyat.

There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans ,its spread showing it is grouped wich indicate there was resettling in near future , while older haplogroups - E1b1b1 , G2a and mythohondrial are more evenly spreaded all over Europe..And also if I2a2 is Peleolitic old population would make more then 80% of today Serbs which is imposible - Hunic and Avaro-Slavic invasions , litle ice age and plague that killed 30% of empire population during Justinian rule.

Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K2 , which is present on Altay.
There is also some N in Serbs but not in neighboring nations , so they use to mix with some Finnic tribes.
I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Thracians were mainly J2 ( comed from Asia Minor ), E1b1, some R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Dacians were Thracian tribe and similar to them , and Panonian to Illyrians.

I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a , Slavs alos had some I2a2 , N , and E1b1

Hope he will be satisfy :Smile:

----------


## Cobol19

> Why do you hate the Medes very much. I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.
> 
> Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.
> 
> WHAT makes you think that the Medes are from Central Asia???


Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from?  :Laughing: 

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.

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## Goga

> Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? 
> 
> It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.


Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.

Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!

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## Bodin

> First, this is not even 0.5% 
> 
> Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.
> 
> First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.
> 
> Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...climate-change
> ...


Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?- man 
Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan
Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .

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## Cobol19

> Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!
> 
> And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!


I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.

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## Goga

> I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:
> 
> http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf
> 
> Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.


There're millions Zaza-Gorani Kurds.

But there're just 20.000 maybe even less Yezidi Kurds left in Georgia! 

Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them. Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name! Like Kurds changed their name now, from the Medes to Kurds.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.


The biggest Iranic tribe from Central Asia that settled in Kurdistan were Parthians !!! These Parthians were related to Central Asian Aryans!

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## Cobol19

> Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.


There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this. 




> Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.


Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.




> Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!


Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.

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## Goga

> There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this. 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.


No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.

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## Bodin

> Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? 
> 
> It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.


In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

----------


## Bodin

> There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this. 
> 
> 
> 
> Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.


 In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

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## Goga

And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!

Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull

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## Alan

> b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from *South-Central Asia* where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.


from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.

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## Cobol19

> Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?-


What's my qualifications? What are Eupedia's qualifications? Listen, I don't take any percentages or maps seriously unless they have sources, and until Maciamo provides where he got his sources from, the numbers and maps on this website are irrelevant.




> Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan


It is South-Central Asia, Central Asia is pretty much north of this area (Kazakhstan, Southern Russia, etc), and parts of Pakistan belongs to this region (North Pakistan and anything west of the Indus).




> Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .


I think they were more connected with the Scythians than with the Medes (Their language is the evidence for it), and the lineage that was likely passed down was R1a1a (Based on Scythian ancient DNA), not I2a1b.

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## Cobol19

> from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.


Yes, the BMAC specially since that's who the Andronovo folks mixed with, after that we start seeing some of the earliest Indo-Iranian traditions come to life.

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## Alan

I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan

1. A Gene flow from Balkans 
2. A Gen Drift (selection)
3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.

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## Cobol19

> No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.


Yea well a lot of people is not a source, the evidence indicate something different, Mitanni = Indo-Aryan, Medeian = Iranian, do they have the same origin? Ultimately yes, but different time-frames and different branches.




> And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!


Historical evidence indicate something different, and you did not show me evidence for the Guti being Iranians, where's your source?




> Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull


Your paranoia is once again getting in the way, but since you wanna go there, this is what I think, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians are mostly native to West Asia (Eastern Anatolia/Northwest Iran/Northern Mesopotamia specially), in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.

----------


## Cobol19

> I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan
> 
> 1. A Gene flow from Balkans 
> 2. A Gen Drift (selection)
> 3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
> 4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.


Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).

----------


## Alan

> Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).


No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.

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## Cobol19

> No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.


Point 3 is indeed possible, but like I said, further studies have to show older subclades of I* in the region before actually accepting this theory.

I think point 1 seems like the strongest point going hand in hand with point 2 (And perhaps even with point 4), basically it's possible that haplogroup I* migrated from Europe to West Asia before the rise of any major civilization, and from there a few specific lineages got lucky and here we are today, their descendants are most fruitful among the Kurds, we see similar weird spikes of different lineages among other groups too.

But overall the best candidates for native lineages that I can think of are J2a and some of its subclades, J1* and some of its subclades, older lineages of R1b1b2 and R1b1b2a, along with some G2a lineages.

The main problem with some of these guesses is we're trying to determine this based on modern populations, assuming not much has happened in the history of the region, this would be ok, but this region has been a melting pot of different cultures, I hope the next step is investing in some ancient DNA studies.

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## Goga

> in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.


Yeah right!

20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = *8 million* Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthCentral Asian? And I'm not even talking about J2, G2 etc. 
This my friend doesn't make any sense!

Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.

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## Cobol19

> Yeah right!
> 
> 20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = *8 million* Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthWest Asian? And I'm not talking about J2, G2 etc. 
> This my friend doesn't make any sense!
> 
> Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.


I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

*MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)
*
*Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)*
*Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)*

*The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East*
*Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)*

*Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%*

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

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## Alan

> I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:
> 
> *MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
> Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
> Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
> Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
> Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)
> *
> *Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)*
> ...


Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%) Also the number of Zaza Kurds lies probably at 2 Mio and not more. There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups equal value. If we take the known studies about Kurds in account than we come to a number between 17-20% However it might be possible that if more samples are taken it comes around 14-15%.

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## Goga

> I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:
> 
> *MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups*
> *Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)*
> *Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)*
> *Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)*
> *Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)*
> 
> *Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)*
> ...


Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in *NORTH* Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.


There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
If you count these isolated Yezidi Kurds as equal to Northern Kurds, you're just manipulating the numbers!

I've got my data from Nasidze et al. (2005), like Maciamo does! Maciamo is 100% right!!!

My question to you, If Kurds are for 20% I2 folks, are they the same as Armenians or Assyrians? And are they from SouthCentral Asia?

The fact is, the original Kurds were never like Assyrians, Armenians. But Kurds as Iranic peoples are mixed with tribes from Caucasus, like Georgians! Or share the same roots as Georgians.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...O;2-Z/abstract


Like it or not, Kurds are not from Central Asia and original Kurds (of IRANIC origin) were NOT related to Armenians or Assyrians.

----------


## Alan

> Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.
> 
> There's more than 20% of I in *NORTH* Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.


calm down.

----------


## Cobol19

> Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%). There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups the same value.


Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:

*Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
**Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
**Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Sample = 460
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 15.4%

*Clearly not 20% as indicated, ohh and one more thing on this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Maciamo has reported 20% among Kurds in Turkey, by excluding the Iraqi Kurds from the above, the total percentage for the Kurds of Turkey should be 15%, not 20%, I'm not sure where he comes up with some of these numbers but I really like to hear what he has to say.

----------


## Cobol19

> Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.
> 
> There's more than 20% of I in *NORTH* Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
> there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
> There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
> There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.
> 
> 
> There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
> ...


Wrong again, the total for Turkey Kurds comes up to 15%, unless Maciamo comes out with his sources, I'm right and he's wrong, but if you wanna follow what you like rather than facts, be my guest  :Bored:

----------


## Goga

No, no, no and no!

*Turkey Kurds* = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
*Iraqi Kurds* = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
*Iranian Kurds* = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also *Syrian Kurds*. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

----------


## Alan

> Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:
> 
> *Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
> Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
> **Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
> **Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)
> 
> Total Sample = 460
> Total I* = 71
> ...


Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.




> Turkey Kurds - 12.7%


could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?

----------


## Goga

> Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
> The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.
> 
> 
> 
> could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?


I hope this will open his eyes.




> *Turkey Kurds* = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
> *Iraqi Kurds* = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 7.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
> Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
> *Iranian Kurds* = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
> There'are also *Syrian Kurds*. 2.000.000 - 3.000.000 (three million) of them. But we don't have data about them.
> 
> Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.
> 
> 
> More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

----------


## Cobol19

> No, no, no and no!
> 
> *Turkey Kurds* = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
> *Iraqi Kurds* = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.020.000 (1,02 million)
> Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
> *Iranian Kurds* = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
> There'are also *Syrian Kurds*. But we don't have data about them.
> 
> Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.
> ...


Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:

*MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
*
*Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)*

*The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East*

There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.

----------


## Cobol19

> Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
> The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.


Even if I'm wrong about the Zazaki and what their traditions and customs are, this still does not prove me wrong about the amount of I* carried by Kurds in Turkey and what should be reported, in any case, I'm gonna assume that Maciamo only took one study into account, because it does not make any sense.




> could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?


*Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)


*

----------


## Alan

Are you even aware that this study
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...hg200565a.html

is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.

This study is well known by Maciamo and us but this study has nothing really zero to do with Kurds from Iraq or Anatolia. And the number of those Kurds is by far not more than that of Yezidi Kurds from Georgia.

----------


## Goga

> Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:
> 
> *MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups*
> 
> *Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan** (Frequency)*
> 
> *The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East*
> 
> There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.


NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million. 15 % from 20.000.000 = 3.000.000 (three million). while 20 % from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
So instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) of all Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.

Big f&%^#* deal!

7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!

Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are and were I2 folks?

You're a tr0ll!

----------


## Cobol19

> Are you even aware that this study
> http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v5...hg200565a.html
> 
> is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.


The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.

----------


## Cobol19

> NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million, so instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.
> 
> Big f&%^#* deal!
> 
> 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!
> 
> Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are I2 folks?


You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.

----------


## Alan

> The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.


Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%

----------


## Cobol19

> Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%


I don't think he took them into account because adding these Kurds with the other ones from the Nasidze study brings the number from 20% to 15%.

----------


## Alan

I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.

----------


## Goga

> You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.


Congratulations, good for you!

Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!

And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!

----------


## Alan

Ok now I know where yolu got this percentages from. They are from Flores. et al. Study. Flores. Et al. Simply used Nebel, Nasidze Study and used Georgians Kurds as well Turkmenistan Kurds equal.

----------


## Alan

And Flores et al. indeed used Kurdish samples from Jordan too. In fact many are from Jordan.
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm

This study what you named "Turkey Kurds" was basically Kurd and based on Iraqi, Georgian, Turkmenistan, Jordanian and Anatolian Kurds. I don´t understand why you called this samples specifically Turkey Kurds.

----------


## Alan

> Congratulations, good for you!
> 
> Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!
> 
> And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
> Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!


Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?

----------


## Goga

> Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?


Because from the day 1 I knew he came here for trouble! And a lot folks here are waiting for my 'ban'.

----------


## Cobol19

> I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.


There are only 3 studies as far as I'm aware, thought you're right about the last one being from the two papers combined, so I'll admit that I was not aware of that myself and made an error, thanks for pointing it out and apologies on my part.

There's still a problem with Maciamo's numbers, assuming that he only took the Nasidze paper for the Kurds in Turkey, based on this, we're only assuming that he took the Zazaki and the Muslim Kurds, right? Here's the original data with both groups combined:

*Sample Size = 114*
E* - 11.4% (13)
C* - 1.8% (2)
K* - 9.6% (11)
R2a - 5.3% (7)
P* - 5.3% (6)
R1* - 6.1% (7)
R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
F* - 10.5% (12)
G* - 2.6% (3)
J2 - 10.5% (12)
I* - 20.2% (23)

Here's what Maciamo reported:

I - 20% (Check)
R1a - 16% (Check)
R1b - 6% (I'm guessing this is based on R1*)
G - 2.5% (Check)
J2 - 10.5% (Check)
*J1 - 9.5% (Based on what?)*
E - 11.5%
*T - 5% (Based on what?)
L - 4.5% (Based on what?)*
Q - 5% (I'm guessing this is based on P*?)
N - 0% (No comment)
*Others - 9% (This seems mostly R2a)*

The bold ones are questionable because it looks like this is what he did:

F* : 10.5% --> J1 : 9.5%
While J1 is indeed under F, among some of the other non reported lineages that also exist is haplogroup H for example, why do we assume 9.5% is J1? What is this assumption based on? 

K* : 9.6% --> T : 5%
K* : 9.6% --> L : 4.5%
How did he figure out that these are the numbers for L and T? Yes, both lineages do fall under K*, but why assume with the numbers when we don't know?

R2a : 8% --> Other : 9%
Why add the extra percentage? Assumption again? seems like he broke down F between this and J1, why? What's the reason behind that?

----------


## sparkey

> In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
> 1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
> 2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
> Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -


You guys post too fast for me to keep up... but I will say that these questions of Bodin's are critical to understanding I2a-Din, and that they're pretty much unanswerable by genetics alone at the moment. That is:

1) Must have been 2000 years ago +/- 1000 years given the STR diversity. But _who_ brought it is another question. We know that its diversity is higher to the North, and we are fairly sure that there is no ancient Western European I2a-Din. But we don't know if its diversity is even higher in the East.
2) Who knows? We have zero data on STR diversity of I2a-Din in Kurdistan. And yet the Sarmatian theory relies a lot on having STR diversity data of I2a-Din in the East. Unfortunately Bodin's frequency-based conjecture could be way off due to genetic drift even if he has all his numbers right. _We need multiple 37+ marker samples__ of Eastern I2a-Din. We don't have this.

_Cobol19 is right that we should doubt the extent of our knowledge about I2a-Din in the East. The better default assumption, based on all that we know about Haplogroup I in general (that the center of diversity of every clade within it is in Europe) is that it is a relatively recent migrant from Europe.

BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).

----------


## Goga

> BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).


I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...

I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!

And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

----------


## Ivan

> G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village


Are you trying to say that one haplogroup raped women of all other y hap. from caucasus. Is this your explanation why there are so much of them there.

----------


## Alan

> *Sample Size = 114*
> E* - 11.4% (13)
> C* - 1.8% (2)
> K* - 9.6% (11)
> R2a - 5.3% (7)
> P* - 5.3% (6)
> R1* - 6.1% (7)
> R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
> F* - 10.5% (12)
> ...


actually if we take Zazaki and Kurmanji_T together we get 23/114 this is ~20% I Maciamo is right in that point.

The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.

----------


## Alan

> I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
> According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
> Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...
> 
> I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!
> 
> And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...


If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.

----------


## Cobol19

> The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.


But this is based on a maybe, not legit, when reporting frequencies one needs to be 100% on the spot, Maciamo took:

F* - 10.5%
K* - 9.6%

And turned it to:

J1 - 9.5%
L - 4.5%
T - 5%
Other - 1% (The other 8% is R2a)

The assumption makes this a flaw imo, if the data is not there, you should not guess randomly.

----------


## Goga

> If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.


No, I think Proto-Iranians were *West Asian*! According to me they were J2, J1, G2 & R1b (like modern Georgians) mixed with R1a, R2a & J2 from the Iranian Plateau - Central Asia and later mixed with R1a, I & J2 folks from North Caucasus.

Don't underestimate J2 in the formation of proto-Indo-Europeans and proto-Iranics!




> _Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:_
> 
> http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...w=1298&bih=595
> 
> 
> _Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language_:
> 
> http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...w=1298&bih=595

----------


## Goga

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...gc.r_pw.&cad=b


http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...gc.r_pw.&cad=b


http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...gc.r_pw.&cad=b

----------


## Goga

ARYANS = *R1a1a* + *J2*




> "_In conclusion: We can now say that based on one of the three hypotheses (Kurgan, Anatolian and «Out of India theory») the haplogroup of Aryans formally claim R1a1a and J2"_
> 
> http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-ab...gc.r_pw.&cad=b

----------


## Cobol19

> ARYANS = *R1a1a* + *J2*


Do you agree with this paper and those maps?

----------


## Goga

> Do you agree with this paper and those maps?


There're *2* papers. 
1st: _Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question_
2nd: _Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language_

Not 100%. I believe Mitanni were proto-Aryans from West Asian who migrated into Central Asia. But I think there was a back migration into Kurdistan again.

I believe in this map:

----------


## Cobol19

> There're *2* papers. 
> 1st: _Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question_
> 2nd: _Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language_
> 
> Not 100%. I believe Mitanni were proto-Aryans from West Asian who migrated into Central Asia. But I think there was a back migration into Kurdistan again.
> 
> I believe in this map:


So you're basically choosing and picking what you want to believe, not very ethical, but whatever.

----------


## Ivan

> And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...


Could you please tell me, I would like to know.

----------


## rms2

Thank you, Bodin, for your reply in post #310.

----------


## Alan

Guys please calm down.

@Goga I can understand why you behave like this when it comes to Assyrian,Armenians. I also had the luck to get in conversation with some of them. But not all people are the same. If I am not wrong Cobol19 is one of the other sort of Assyrians.

----------


## Cobol19

> Guys please calm down.
> 
> @Goga I can understand why you behave like this when it comes to Assyrian,Armenians. I also had the luck to get in conversation with some of them. But not all people are the same. If I am not wrong Cobol19 is one of the other sort of Assyrians.


Well Alan, some of your experiences with some Assyrians sums up how some of my experiences with some Kurds have been, it's a two way street my friend, on the other hand you along with the few other Kurds (Like a few personal friends of mine and the ones I met through 23andMe for example) I have respect for because the discussion has nothing to do with flame wars and you actually read and realize that what I write does not degrade Kurds in any way, if anything I support Kurdish DNA advancement.

Goga get's too paranoid for no reason and likes to degrade Assyrians and Armenians in a very stupid way, he does not get my respect because he's an unethical person that is only interested in spreading personal agenda and putting unnecessary fuel on fire.

----------


## Ivan

> Guys please calm down.


I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.

I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.

I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.

----------


## Cobol19

> I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.
> 
> I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.
> 
> I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.


I hate to disappoint you, but there's a strong chance that we all have some sort of rapist in our paternal lineage, you're forgetting that human history is very deep and goes back beyond 50,000 years, I would be surprised if there was no rapist in there somewhere.

----------


## Ivan

> I hate to disappoint you, but there's a strong chance that we all have some sort of rapist in our paternal lineage, you're forgetting that human history is very deep and goes back beyond 50,000 years, I would be surprised if there was no rapist in there somewhere.


I am not disappointed when I learn something new. What you said is true for the civilisation as a whole, but I wanted to know more about this theory that G haplogroup singled out and primarily expanded in this manner, at least my haplogroup relatives from Caucasus. This I hope I misread. Nevertheless if it is true I would be happy to know.

----------


## Cobol19

> I am not disappointed when I learn something new. What you said is true for the civilisation as a whole, but I wanted to know more about this theory that G haplogroup singled out and primarily expanded in this manner, at least my haplogroup relatives from Caucasus. This I hope I misread. Nevertheless if it is true I would be happy to know.


You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.

Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.

----------


## Ivan

> You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.
> 
> Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.


I am just interested to know, not worried. 

BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read here.

Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.

----------


## Ivan

> You're never gonna find out ancient rapes so don't worry about it, just focus on studying your lineages and DNA, there's no need to focus on negative crap like this.
> 
> Btw, your paternal lineage is actually quite rare, but it's present in the Caucasus and that's where it likely originated (Or in Iran), and it's most likely much younger than G2.


I am just interested to know, not worried. 

BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read.

Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.

----------


## Cobol19

> I am just interested to know, not worried. 
> 
> BTW I am aware that Caucasus population had a manner of abducting young women and making them their wifes, which was especially true for mountain population which I agree was mostly G. This is quite different than what I have read here.


Abducting women does not result in rape lineages, you're actually correct, it was very common for tribal groups in those regions (Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran) to abduct young beautiful women, but when they abducted them, they usually took them back to their tribal lands and kept them as wives, they did not rape them and throw them away, if they did rape a woman in the intend of not keeping her as a wife they usually killed her after, the reason for that is because rape could result to a pregnancy, and tribal pride was way too much to throw away a seed in case it was potentially a boy which is very important in such tribal cultures, so it was either rape and kill, or abduct and keep as a wife, the actual rapes that you're talking about were more common in army soldiers from foreign lands rather than surrounding tribal groups.




> Considering G1 being old from 5000 - 17000 years and being marked as a the first G with a new mutation I find it interesting if you have some other info where it is considered younger than G2. Does that mean the group lettering should change, and renaming take place. This is the first time I have heard about this. Can you link me to some of it.


I've seen it somewhere, I'll try to find it, though I also get a lot of my info on this lineage from one of the FTDNA G project administrators, he's a G1* like yourself.

----------


## Bodin

> What's my qualifications? What are Eupedia's qualifications? Listen, I don't take any percentages or maps seriously unless they have sources, and until Maciamo provides where he got his sources from, the numbers and maps on this website are irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> It is South-Central Asia, Central Asia is pretty much north of this area (Kazakhstan, Southern Russia, etc), and parts of Pakistan belongs to this region (North Pakistan and anything west of the Indus).
> 
> 
> 
> I think they were more connected with the Scythians than with the Medes (Their language is the evidence for it), and the lineage that was likely passed down was R1a1a (Based on Scythian ancient DNA), not I2a1b.


Everybody say Tajikistan , Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan, Afganistan and South Kazahstan are in central Asia , just you say they are not, but I suposse there is no way they are right 
There is realy small diference betwen east and west Iranic languagues . You seem to know which languague Sarmathians spocked , how? Herodotus clearly say they speacked spoiled Scythian - there was some diference , that even Greek would spot , Greek that isnt speacked any of these languagues . Serbians spoke Slavic languague but still has only about 5% of Slavic genes

----------


## Bodin

> Are you trying to say that one haplogroup raped women of all other y hap. from caucasus. Is this your explanation why there are so much of them there.


 No I didnt try to say that - there was lot more G in Caucasus to begin with , and then group of Sarmathians comed carrying I2a1b , they mixed with G population that lived on they lands - now they are I2a1b and G , and they make war with neighbours that dont have any i2a1b , and realy strong G , and they rape eachothers womans - that would lead to increase of G among first population and only traces of i in second population

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## Bodin

> But this is based on a maybe, not legit, when reporting frequencies one needs to be 100% on the spot, Maciamo took:
> 
> F* - 10.5%
> K* - 9.6%
> 
> And turned it to:
> 
> J1 - 9.5%
> L - 4.5%
> ...


But we are hier to develope theories , and to take best guesses . He probably had his reasons to put most of F* in to J1 - even if all of that is not J1 it is still bether than to call it F* ( which is realy rear )

----------


## Bodin

> You guys post too fast for me to keep up... but I will say that these questions of Bodin's are critical to understanding I2a-Din, and that they're pretty much unanswerable by genetics alone at the moment. That is:
> 
> 1) Must have been 2000 years ago +/- 1000 years given the STR diversity. But _who_ brought it is another question. We know that its diversity is higher to the North, and we are fairly sure that there is no ancient Western European I2a-Din. But we don't know if its diversity is even higher in the East.
> 2) Who knows? We have zero data on STR diversity of I2a-Din in Kurdistan. And yet the Sarmatian theory relies a lot on having STR diversity data of I2a-Din in the East. Unfortunately Bodin's frequency-based conjecture could be way off due to genetic drift even if he has all his numbers right. _We need multiple 37+ marker samples__ of Eastern I2a-Din. We don't have this.
> 
> _Cobol19 is right that we should doubt the extent of our knowledge about I2a-Din in the East. The better default assumption, based on all that we know about Haplogroup I in general (that the center of diversity of every clade within it is in Europe) is that it is a relatively recent migrant from Europe.
> 
> BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).


Main question still stays how did it get from Balkans to Kurdistan ? All of Turkic I2a1b has to be from setlling of Balkanians after XIV century AD( up to today - muslims from Sandzak go to work in Turkey , and stay there) - that settling is historicaly confirmed , and they have to had significant I2a1b , and today Turks have realy small % of I2a1 - so certainly most of it and probably all is there only since XIV century AD .

----------


## Bodin

> Thank you, Bodin, for your reply in post #310.


Youre wellcomed

----------


## Bodin

> I see I look like someone with an nationalistic agenda to pursue, while others might think I would like to undermine someones nicely elaborated theory. I am trying to do neither.
> 
> I just want to learn about my ancestors, who they really were. I don't really care if there were some Aryans, Sarmatians, Slaves or Gipsies. I would like to know them just for who they really are.
> 
> I just hope they were not rapists. I really hope I misread that. But if they were, and someone can tell me why that would be true I would be thankful for the knowledge.


 It was part of spoils of war to rape conquered womans ( and it still is - look Russians in Germany during WWII , Americans in Afganistan and Iraq , Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs in war in former Yugoslavia , Foreign legion in Africa ,... ) . So everybodie of us had lots of ancestors that are rapist , killers ( killers left descendants , killed ones are not ) , robers ,...

----------


## Bodin

> Abducting women does not result in rape lineages, you're actually correct, it was very common for tribal groups in those regions (Anatolia/Caucasus/Iran) to abduct young beautiful women, but when they abducted them, they usually took them back to their tribal lands and kept them as wives, they did not rape them and throw them away, if they did rape a woman in the intend of not keeping her as a wife they usually killed her after, the reason for that is because rape could result to a pregnancy, and tribal pride was way too much to throw away a seed in case it was potentially a boy which is very important in such tribal cultures, so it was either rape and kill, or abduct and keep as a wife, the actual rapes that you're talking about were more common in army soldiers from foreign lands rather than surrounding tribal groups.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it somewhere, I'll try to find it, though I also get a lot of my info on this lineage from one of the FTDNA G project administrators, he's a G1* like yourself.


Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ? Actualy there is no reason to kill girl , he would left her as a shame for her family - making enemies to breed his childs .
Other thing was more common , to family kill girl , or girl kill herself , or she kill a child . But not only girls were raped , but also maried womans , and some times it was hard to determine whose child it is - from rapist or from husband

----------


## Cobol19

> Everybody say Tajikistan , Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan, Afganistan and South Kazahstan are in central Asia , just you say they are not, but I suposse there is no way they are right 
> There is realy small diference betwen east and west Iranic languagues . You seem to know which languague Sarmathians spocked , how? Herodotus clearly say they speacked spoiled Scythian - there was some diference , that even Greek would spot , Greek that isnt speacked any of these languagues . Serbians spoke Slavic languague but still has only about 5% of Slavic genes


You're forgetting that Herodotus also mentioned that the Sarmatians were actually the result of Scythian men marrying Amazonian women:

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/gru...04.110-117.htm

While the above may be some sort of ancient legend, read the important part:




> *"The language of the Sauromatae is Scythian, but not spoken in its ancient purity"*


This leads me to believe that they were the result of Scythians mixing with local native populations of the Eurasian steppes, their off-spring today exists in the form of Ossetian (Which is a language off-spring mostly since they seriously lack R1a1a).




> But we are hier to develope theories , and to take best guesses . He probably had his reasons to put most of F* in to J1 - even if all of that is not J1 it is still bether than to call it F* ( which is realy rear )


Developing theories is absurd when there's actual data available, either you re-word the table frequency to *"This is what I think"*, or stop promoting it as a fact, do you understand now? I may argue and say, why is it 9.5% J1? Maybe it's 5%, maybe it's 2%, the point is you don't report numbers because you think it's right, either it's right or it's not, that's how the ethical academic way works, and that frequency table is not academic so please stop referring to it in this discussion until Maciamo fixes these things, because as of now, the table is not legit.




> Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ?


Abducting and forcing a girl is indeed still rape, but this results in an off-spring that will carry a different mtDNA, not different Y-DNA, because the girl's line is being introduced to the tribe, not the father's Y-DNA. 




> Actualy there is no reason to kill girl , he would left her as a shame for her family - making enemies to breed his childs .
> 
> Other thing was more common , to family kill girl , or girl kill herself , or she kill a child . But not only girls were raped , but also maried womans , and some times it was hard to determine whose child it is - from rapist or from husband


I'm not here to tell you whether there's a reason or not, I'm telling you this is what happened in these areas, apperantly you're not familiar of how important it is to pass your seed down in the tribal sense in these regions, it's extremely important because potentially it could be a boy, tribal people loved breeding boys because they make the tribe stronger, raping random women and leaving her alive could result in a birth of a future boy, tribal people avoided that for this very reason unless they killed the girl after the rape.

Rape of this kind was only common when an army from foreign lands came through, that's because they were away from their women and at war with nothing to lose, rapes by them were not an issue, so if any rape off-spring took place, it was likely from this interaction.

----------


## Ivan

> It was part of spoils of war to rape conquered womans ( and it still is - look Russians in Germany during WWII , Americans in Afganistan and Iraq , Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs in war in former Yugoslavia , Foreign legion in Africa ,... ) . So everybodie of us had lots of ancestors that are rapist , killers ( killers left descendants , killed ones are not ) , robers ,...




I thought you singled out Haplogroup G to be reproducing itself mostly by rape, and connected one particular group to a custom of raping all the women after killing male population above all other groups. I then misread that.

Though I would not blame any of them for taking the woman with them as a spoil of war and not killing them on the spot, at least the pretty ones were spared. 

Still not sure if I would call it rape in the first place. For your theory to work, where rape as you call it led to increase of numbers, I would rather call it the spoil of war that ultimately became female population of the victors.

----------


## Ivan

> Well if he abduct her and take her to his land she would still have to rape her , or you think she geting lot more willing when she left her village ?


As a psychological term, from the standpoint of the victim, it is an actual rape, but rape as a mean of war is what you were talking about. 

This rape as a mean of war, is much more connected with invading armies who stayed on the spot, unlike this mountain skirmishes with a hit and run tactics; thus producing *or not*, mostly *single* offspring that *could be male*, from those women that *are not slain* afterwards, and also who *decided to keep* the babies which in mountain cultures was* not so common*, and who eventually could be living in a strong atmosphere of hate towards his biological father.

The problem is in the word rape, as a mean of significant increase of ones group numbers, which is ultimately inferior to number of children from women who were later accepted in the new culture, thus capable of producing significantly more children in an atmosphere controlled by society in which the children are born to.

----------


## Bodin

> You're forgetting that Herodotus also mentioned that the Sarmatians were actually the result of Scythian men marrying Amazonian women:
> 
> http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/gru...04.110-117.htm
> 
> While the above may be some sort of ancient legend, read the important part:
> 
> This leads me to believe that they were the result of Scythians mixing with local native populations of the Eurasian steppes, their off-spring today exists in the form of Ossetian (Which is a language off-spring mostly since they seriously lack R1a1a).
> 
> 
> ...


 Prove Amazons egzisted 
There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague . 
Egzactly there is almoust no R1a1 in Ossetians - that is another prove Sarmathian were not R1a1 , Ossetians even call themselves Iron and languague Iraetae - same as Medeans call themselves Aryan 
Theories are the ways you read the data
I already said it was way to humiliate family of girl and her tribe/ nation - they are forced to breed child of rapist . It was common practice in both central Asia and Caucasus , especialy Mongolians ( Gengis Khan could be child from such raping )

----------


## Bodin

> I thought you singled out Haplogroup G to be reproducing itself mostly by rape, and connected one particular group to a custom of raping all the women after killing male population above all other groups. I then misread that.
> 
> Though I would not blame any of them for taking the woman with them as a spoil of war and not killing them on the spot, at least the pretty ones were spared. 
> 
> Still not sure if I would call it rape in the first place. For your theory to work, where rape as you call it led to increase of numbers, I would rather call it the spoil of war that ultimately became female population of the victors.


 No I havent singled out any haplogroup , G was just more numerous in aeria , and spreaded more that way - mathematical progresion
Whell you could call it spoil of war , but thats still rape , no diferent than any other

----------


## Cobol19

> Prove Amazons egzisted


Amazons were simply warrior women and they existed based on history books, in fact, female warriors were found in Scythian grave sites, read this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rOG5VcYxhiEC




> There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague .


The difference between east and west is not so small, heck, even differences between dialects within the same language can be quite large, let alone different languages from different branches?

I actually have a Kurdish friend who speaks the Kurmanji Kurdish dialect, we went to a shawerma place where the owner spoke the Sorani Kurdish dialect, I asked my friend to communicate with him in Kurdish, but he said he couldn't because they don't understand one another, so if two people who speak the same language cannot communicate due to different dialects, you really think two total different languages are gonna be understandable? Unless both sides know a common language, not a chance.




> Egzactly there is almoust no R1a1 in Ossetians - that is another prove Sarmathian were not R1a1 , Ossetians even call themselves Iron and languague Iraetae - same as Medeans call themselves Aryan


Speaking a language does not mean you're supposed to carry the genes of the people that brought the language, in Nigeria they speak English, but clearly they don't carry English genes, likewise in Cameroon they speak French, but once again they do not carry French genes, get it?




> Theories are the ways you read the data
> I already said it was way to humiliate family of girl and her tribe/ nation - they are forced to breed child of rapist . It was common practice in both central Asia and Caucasus , especialy Mongolians ( Gengis Khan could be child from such raping )


I don't care about Genghis Khan or Central Asia, I'm talking about Anatolia/Iran/Caucasus/Mesopotamia, etc, tribal groups did not rape, army did, of course I would not expect you to know this since you're not from this area nor do you know anything about it.

----------


## Ivan

> Whell you could call it spoil of war , but thats still rape , no diferent than any other


If you would like to moralize now, I agree with you they were very bad boys, but if this was abduction for the purpose of marrying I forgive them. You can call them rapists if you will.

Rape as a mean of expanding group numbers makes no sense. That was the idea of my posts.

You said *probably their custom of raping an entire village*, helped them in expanding their numbers.
Where did you find such stuff anyway. Abducting women and marrying them is the only thing I have heard about in those areas to be *known as a custom*. If you have some other info please share it.

----------


## Bodin

> Amazons were simply warrior women and they existed based on history books, in fact, female warriors were found in Scythian grave sites, read this book:
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=rOG5VcYxhiEC
> 
> The difference between east and west is not so small, heck, even differences between dialects within the same language can be quite large, let alone different languages from different branches?
> 
> I actually have a Kurdish friend who speaks the Kurmanji Kurdish dialect, we went to a shawerma place where the owner spoke the Sorani Kurdish dialect, I asked my friend to communicate with him in Kurdish, but he said he couldn't because they don't understand one another, so if two people who speak the same language cannot communicate due to different dialects, you really think two total different languages are gonna be understandable? Unless both sides know a common language, not a chance.
> 
> Speaking a language does not mean you're supposed to carry the genes of the people that brought the language, in Nigeria they speak English, but clearly they don't carry English genes, likewise in Cameroon they speak French, but once again they do not carry French genes, get it?
> ...


 No Amazons were nation from Greek miths , they exsistence is not scientificaly proved
I wasnt speacking about Kurdish languague today I was speacking about west and east Iranian languague groups at that time 
I know Serbs speack Slavic having only 5% of Slavic genes , there was some spreading of Sarmathian languague( mainly on HG G population) , but some of Sarmathians Alans use to live on Caucasus during Middle Ages - Alania 
In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes

----------


## Ivan

> In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes


Can you link me to some. I would really like to see it.

----------


## Cobol19

> No Amazons were nation from Greek miths , they exsistence is not scientificaly proved
> I wasnt speacking about Kurdish languague today I was speacking about west and east Iranian languague groups at that time 
> I know Serbs speack Slavic having only 5% of Slavic genes , there was some spreading of Sarmathian languague( mainly on HG G population) , but some of Sarmathians Alans use to live on Caucasus during Middle Ages - Alania 
> In many researches high G amongst Ossetians is explained by inter tribal rapes


Bodin, you seem to lack the knowledge in the subject of genetics, it's not called rape, it's called genetic drift, when people within the tribe intermarry one another, one lineage or two will likely be dominant, this is seen in other tribal people too, not just in the Caucasus.

As for the Amazons, I'm not talking about the Greek myths, I'm talking about the actual Scythian women warriors that existed, the term Amazon comes from the Iranian language which meant warriors.

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## Goga

> Prove Amazons egzisted 
> There was realy small diference betwen west ( Scythian) and east ( Medae) languagues - they could easily understand each other - so for foreign writer ( Herodothus ) it could look as one of them speack " spoiled" ( or ancient) form of other languague .


Median is northwestern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language

Scythian is eastern Iranic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages

----------


## Goga

Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!

The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.

So I think that it is true that Sarmatians are not a fiction and that Serbs are Sarmatians! I think that Serbs together with the Croats are actually the real (purest) Sarmantians, and othern East European nations are partly Sarmatians, partly Slavic, partly Greek etc.. Like Bulgarians, Macedonians, Slovenians, Romanians, Belarussians and even Hungarians.

I think that Sarmatians and Cimmerians were almost the same people and shared the same origin! Because they came in the historical accounts almost at the same time.

----------


## sparkey

> Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!
> 
> The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.


Come now, that doesn't follow. Russian haplogroup N clearly has its highest frequencies in Northern Russia, and Russian I2a-Din has its highest frequencies in Southern Russia. Even if we don't think of I2a-Din levels in the Balkans as a case of genetic drift (which it almost certainly is), then at least we would expect the Slavs who came to the Balkans to have been from the Southern area of Slavic extent. That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.

----------


## Goga

> That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.


Ok, but there's 0% of N in Croatia and only 2% of N in Serbia. If Slavic tribes from Russian moved into the Balkans I would expect much more N, around 10% or something.

(Slavic) N is just very rare in the Balkans. And there's also not so much R1a...

----------


## Alan

> Median is northwestern Iranic.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_language
> 
> Scythian is eastern Iranic.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages


Now for the x time there is nothing we could connect to Median Language. The only Reason we know it existed are Persian records where some Median words are listed, surprisingly those words are very similar to Avesta (it is classified as Northeast Iranic). But there are zero sentence samples of it. No one really knows what kind of language Median was. Such Maps are based on the assumings of linguists. NorthWest-East division is based on very small factors which can change in time. Best example are the Parthians. Originally a Sycthian folk now classified as Northwest Iranic. How is that possible? And Wikipedia is the least source I would use.

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## Goga

> Best example are the Parthians. Originally a Sycthian folk now classified as Northwest Iranic. How is that possible?


Very simple. The Avesta (Zoroastrian sacred texts) was written in a language very close to what the Parthians used. 
The closests modernday Iranic language to Avestan language is the northwern Kurdish and I mean the Gorani-Zaza dialects. At the time when Parthians migrated from Central Asia into West Asia this language was *already* used by the Iranic tribes in West Iran (under the Caspian Sea).

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## sparkey

> Ok, but there's 0% of N in Croatia and only 2% of N in Serbia. If Slavic tribes from Russian moved into the Balkans I would expect much more N, around 10% or something.


And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.




> (Slavic) N is just very rare in the Balkans. And there's also not so much R1a...


Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?

----------


## Goga

> And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.


Ok.




> Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?


I think something but not a lot. It's possible that Sarmatians were 'native' Europeans and not Slavic from northwest Russia or Iranic from the steppes.

----------


## Benkimim

What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

----------


## sparkey

> What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?


The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

----------


## Benkimim

Thanks dude

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## Goga

> The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.


Maybe also with some E1b1b?

What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...

----------


## sparkey

> Maybe also with some E1b1b?


Yes, and probably also some T and some others. Q is a question mark to me, when did it get to Ukraine, I wonder?




> What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...


Next we'll both be proven wrong and a dozen new theories will arise.  :Laughing:

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## Cobol19

> The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.


I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

----------


## razor

> I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*,


That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?

----------


## Goga

> My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.


Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.

I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.

But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.

----------


## Cobol19

> That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?


I don't have access to the paper, but here's the following study:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/

The study was based on Kurgan skeletons from the second millennium BC all the way to the fourth century AD (Which the Scythians fall between the time-line and very well roaming the steppes).

----------


## Cobol19

> Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.
> 
> I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.
> 
> But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.


Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.

Note, the Assyrians hardly have any R1a1a (Like 2% or 3%), so they're insignificant to the Z93 story.

----------


## Goga

> Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.


Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet. 

But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between all West Iranic peoples, Iranic folks in the Caucasus and native Caucasians.

So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for example. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.

----------


## sparkey

> I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:
> 
> http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
> 
> We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.
> 
> Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CMjR3ssG#gid=0
> ...


I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.

----------


## Cobol19

> Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet. 
> 
> But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between West Iranic peoples and the Caucasus.
> 
> So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for exampel. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.


I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.

----------


## Cobol19

> I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.


Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?

----------


## razor

Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).

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## Cobol19

> Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).


Maybe, I'm not aware of any ancient DNA studies in Eastern Europe if that was the desirable request, these 26 samples were found in South Siberia, but according to the study, the specimen were European looking and had light features.

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## Goga

> I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.


Well according to the study called "*Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians*" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
_In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

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## Cobol19

> Well according to the study called "*Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians*" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.
> They're like Kurds and West Persians!
> 
> "_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
> _In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a commonIranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well asa genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the NorthCaucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into thecircumstances surrounding such migrations._"
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf


I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

----------


## Goga

> I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.


Don't you believe this study?

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## sparkey

> Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?


Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.

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## Goga

Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!

From "*Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.*":

_Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences._

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

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## Taranis

> I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.


Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.

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## Goga

> Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.


No, they're closer to West Iranians than to neighbouring Caucasians! So these folks ARE Iranic/Aryan, like their language!

from "*Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians*"

"_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
_In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

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## Cobol19

> Don't you believe this study?


I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:




> *The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other.*


Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...662/table/TB2/

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## Cobol19

> Well, there is certainly the possibility that the Ossetians are actually basically Scythianized Caucasians, rather than actually descendants from the ancient Scythians. At least this would fit with their DNA makeup.


In terms of Y-DNA, I agree, but that begs the question on what the Scythians were, I think by the time the Greeks started recording their history there was no such thing as Scythian ethnicity, they were probably a bunch of different groups and tribes from different ethnic backgrounds under one umbrella.

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## Goga

> Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...662/table/TB2/


I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same Aryan origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks from the Caucasus!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

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## Cobol19

> I don't know what you're up to, but Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians have the same origin and genetically they are the closest relatives to each other! And the closest folks to them are folks fro the Caucasus!


I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.

Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.

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## Goga

Have you read the academic studies I posted? All these studies say that Aryan speaking Kurds, Ossetians & West Persians are very closely related to each other first and than to the folks in the Caucasus!

This are all FACTS!

mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!




> I - 5%
> W - 10%
> HV* - 10%
> HV1 - 5%
> HV2 - 5%
> H - 10%
> U5 - 5%
> U7 - 20%
> U8b - 10%
> ...





> Well according to the study called "*Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians*" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.
> 
> Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!
> 
> "_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
> _In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf





> Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!
> 
> From "*Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.*":
> 
> _Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences._
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

----------


## Cobol19

Goga, technically speaking, European mtDNA is actually "West Asian" and this has nothing to do with Aryans, you do realize that these are lineages that existed way long before there was such thing as Proto-Indo-Europeans right? Let alone Aryans?

My mtDNA for example is T1, this same lineage is common among Germanic groups (Dutch specially) and apperantly, it's connected to the Vikings, does that make me a Viking too? No, the reality is this same lineage is connected to the people who migrated from Anatolia to Europe during the Neolithic times and spread agriculture, my main point is you have to expand your mind, not stick everything with Aryans.

I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.

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## Goga

> I showed you the chart based on a recent study from 2007 and asked you a simple question, does the frequency of Kurdish mtDNA match the Persian sample or not? Mind you, deep ancestry frequencies are not that reliable to connect populations like this, autosomal DNA is the answer for such connections and based on that, Kurds and Persians are indeed closest to one another while the Ossetians are still up in the air due to insufficient data.


First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans! 

They also do share the same origin and have almost the same DNA. And are also closely connected to the Caucasus.

So what? Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much 'European' hg. I. 
Kurds have even higher hg. I* percentage (MORE) than the most native folks in Europe do, more than folks in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia, Switzerland, Wales, Portugal etc. etc.

Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.

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## Cobol19

> First of all Aryans = speakers of Aryan language. Not all IE langauges are Aryan. Kurds, Ossetians etc. speak an Aryan language, so they're Aryans! 
> They also do share same the same origin
> 
> So what Kurdish Y-DNA doesn't match very well with Persians and Ossetians either. Kurds have very much European hg. I. Even more than the most native folks in Europe, moren than in Belgium, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Russia, Latvia, Poland, Slovakia etc. etc.
> 
> Y-DNA & mtDNA frequencies say nothing.


Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

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## Goga

> Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.
> 
> I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.


The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much *West Asian* DNA in them!

West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.

And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.

----------


## Cobol19

> The thing is that West Aryans (Kurds, West Persians & Ossetians) are genetically not the same as East Aryans, although East Aryans have very much *West Asian* DNA in them!
> 
> West Aryans are much closer to folks in the Caucasus than to the East Aryans! Kurds & Ossetians are MUCH closer to Georgians than to Aryan speakers in Central Asia.
> 
> And again, only the Aryan language connects West and East Aryans.


Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.

----------


## Goga

> Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0
> 
> The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.


What Dienekes is doing is not really science. 

I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!

I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!

But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..





> mtDNA distribution in Iranian Kurdistan!
> 
> I - 5%
> W - 10%
> HV* - 10%
> HV1 - 5%
> HV2 - 5%
> H - 10%
> U5 - 5%
> ...





> Well according to the study called "*Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians*" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.
> 
> Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!
> 
> "_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
> _In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf





> Also Kurdish mtDNA is very similar to the folks from the Caucasus!
> 
> From "*Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages.*":
> 
> _Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences._
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766939

----------


## razor

> I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.


My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist (:=)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".

----------


## Cobol19

> What Dienekes is doing is not really science. 
> 
> I'm talking here about the true ACADEMIC science. And the true ACADEMIC science says that Kurds, Ossetians and West Persians are closest folks to each other first and than to WEST ASIAN folks in the Caucasus, even to Caucasian West Asian Adygei in South Russia (which is technically in Europe)!
> 
> I don't know about Assyrians, but ironically Armenians and Turks are practically the same. Ironically because Turks killed many Armenians, lol!
> 
> But Kurds are closer to Aryan speaking West Persians, Ossetians and Caucasian speaking folks in the Caucasus, like Georgians, Adygei etc..


If what Dienekes was doing is not scientific, it would not be praised by actual professional geneticists:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/1012...l/468880a.html

I think the issue here is that you're not familiar with genetics that much, read up on deep ancestry and autosomal DNA to know the difference, don't judge things without proper knowledge of them.

----------


## Bodin

> Can you link me to some. I would really like to see it.


Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

----------


## Bodin

> Bodin, you seem to lack the knowledge in the subject of genetics, it's not called rape, it's called genetic drift, when people within the tribe intermarry one another, one lineage or two will likely be dominant, this is seen in other tribal people too, not just in the Caucasus.
> 
> As for the Amazons, I'm not talking about the Greek myths, I'm talking about the actual Scythian women warriors that existed, the term Amazon comes from the Iranian language which meant warriors.


What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics 
What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow

----------


## Bodin

> Bodin, I thought a little bit about this and I came to the conclusion that I2 in Serbs is not Slavic at all. If it was Slavic, Slavs would carry also a lot of hg. N into the Balkans, since hg. N in Russia is much older than hg. I2!
> 
> The only possibility that I2 is not Sarmatian but South Slavic is if Russians are not Slavic.
> 
> So I think that it is true that Sarmatians are not a fiction and that Serbs are Sarmatians! I think that Serbs together with the Croats are actually the real (purest) Sarmantians, and othern East European nations are partly Sarmatians, partly Slavic, partly Greek etc.. Like Bulgarians, Macedonians, Slovenians, Romanians, Belarussians and even Hungarians.
> 
> I think that Sarmatians and Cimmerians were almost the same people and shared the same origin! Because they came in the historical accounts almost at the same time.


 That is what I trying to prove . Aldo Serbs and Croats also has nonSarmathian lineages - Serbs more Balkanic ( E1b1b and J ) , and Croats more Slavic ( R1a )

----------


## Bodin

> Come now, that doesn't follow. Russian haplogroup N clearly has its highest frequencies in Northern Russia, and Russian I2a-Din has its highest frequencies in Southern Russia. Even if we don't think of I2a-Din levels in the Balkans as a case of genetic drift (which it almost certainly is), then at least we would expect the Slavs who came to the Balkans to have been from the Southern area of Slavic extent. That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.


Yes N is from Finns and I2a1b is from Sarmathians , again there is no archeological evidence of significant Slavic settlement on Balkans , again Slavic R1a is also strongest on south of Russia - where is it on Balkans ? - only 5% in serbians

----------


## Bodin

> And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.
> 
> 
> 
> Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?


 Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?

----------


## Bodin

> What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?


Scythians were definetly R1a ( over 90% of excavated graves) , they also could have N and Q
I believe Sarmathians were I2a1b , some others believe it was R1a , and I dont undertand why

----------


## Bodin

> I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:
> 
> http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg
> 
> We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.
> 
> Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CMjR3ssG#gid=0
> ...


No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) . Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).
Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by Mongols

----------


## Bodin

> Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.


Veneti are most probably ancestors of Balts - and there is very low I2a1b in them , Lietuva 1% and Lithuania 6% ( they have legend about Sarmathian origin of they nobility )

----------


## Bodin

> I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:
> 
> 
> 
> Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...662/table/TB2/


 But wat is meaning of : " North Ossetians are more simillar to North Caucasus populations and south ... to south... " - they are same nation so only answer is that male lineages were very much replaced

----------


## Bodin

> I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.
> 
> Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.


And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth

----------


## Bodin

> Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.
> 
> I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.


Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory

----------


## Bodin

> My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist (:=)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".


No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .

----------


## Cobol19

> What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics 
> What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow


Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.





> No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) .


Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find* "Ancient DNA"* for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.




> Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).


Soon we'll find out, don't worry.




> Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by Mongols


The C was carried among the Andronovo culture (Kurgan culture / Proto-Indo-Iranians):

3e43372725ee.gif




> Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory


I don't even understand this, the English is very bad.




> And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth


What does I2a1b have to do with Medes crushing the Assyrians? This is stupid and has nothing to do with anything, well, Medes and Chaldeans crushed the Assyrians, the Persians crushed the Medes and Chaldeans, the Macedonians/Greeks crushed the Persians, etc, we can go on and on, but unless you have evidence that I2a1b existed among ancient Iranians, your arguments are useless and you have no point, and when I say evidence, I mean *"Ancient DNA"* studies, is there any ancient DNA of I2a1b found among ancient Iranians? If not, please stop repeating yourself.

----------


## Ivan

> Hier is one of them:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
> I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA


*For the part I am concerned*, and that is your subsequent use of the word *rape*, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians. 

That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. *Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed.* Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.

Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.

Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen. 

Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange* but the real changes happen in time of peace*, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain. 

What I was saying was that you do not need rape and wars to explain your theory. There is genetic drift that by itself is enough to explain the high G.

----------


## Cobol19

> Hier is one of them:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
> I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA


You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?

----------


## razor

> No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .


Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).

----------


## Ivan

##########

----------


## Goga

> They could be a Georgian tribe in terms of genes, also their geographic location is speaking in favor of that, and the language and culture could be adopted. They lived on south Caucasian slopes in Georgia, but still, it was high in mountains, where they were much more connected to North Ossetians and their culture.
> 
> This brings to my mind an unfortunate dispute between Georgia an North Ossetia. If this research is true and if I am not mistaking, they both have something to claim.
> 
> Politicians will ultimately decide what is better suited for statehood, whether cultural or ethnic affiliation.
> 
> I sincerely hope they will find some common ground soon in the interest of Caucasus people.


No, you're making a mistake. Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.

There's only 750,000 Ossetians, but at least 40,000,000 Kurds.

This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.


And Georgia has some disputes with South Ossetia...

----------


## Cobol19

> No, you're making a mistake. *Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral* they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.
> 
> This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.


Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.

----------


## Goga

> Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.


Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.

----------


## Cobol19

> Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.


When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.

----------


## Goga

> When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:
> 
> You = 1
> Your parents = 2
> Grandparents = 4
> Great Grandparents = 8
> Great Great Grandparents = 16
> Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
> Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
> ...


True, and I do absolutely agree with you.

But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and that they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their ancient Iranic genes...

----------


## Alan

> Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0
> 
> The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.
> 
> Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.


You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.

----------


## Cobol19

> Ture, and I do agree with.
> 
> But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and not they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their genes...


But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.

The only data available autosomally is on Iranians (Persians, Azeri, Luri, etc) and Kurds, and they are indeed closest to one another, I'll see if I can find anything on the Ossetians online.

----------


## Cobol19

> You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran.


Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).




> Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar structure based on their part Iranic heritage but their is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian as well North European in compare tol Assyrians. The difference between however between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean among in the I. Kurds than Iranians, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.


Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.

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## Goga

> But see this is where my problem is, we don't know whether the Ossetians are connected autosomally to the other West Iranian groups like Persians or Kurds because we don't have the sample on them, the studies available only indicate Y-DNA/mtDNA comparison.


No, once again. Their *mtDNA* is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:

"_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
_In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

----------


## Cobol19

> No, once again. Their *mtDNA* is closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds. Read the underlined phrases in red from this study:
> 
> "_Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously._
> _In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a_ _common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations._"
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf


Goga, we already had gone through this already, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not tell the whole story, you can only compare closeness of populations by autosomal DNA, read this:

http://www.dnainheritance.kahikatea.net/autosomal.html

----------


## Alan

> Dienekes' sample contains whoever tested with 23andMe, among those Kurds there's a sample from Turkey, and his result was actually not very different from the other Kurds from Iraq and Iran which indicates the same Kurdish ancestry, btw, there's another Kurdish waiting for his result and he's also from Turkey I think (Zazaki Kurd from what I recall).


You are again twisting things up a bit even though this time I know you know better. You know as much as me that this actual Kurd from Turkey has his origin in North West Iran and this very well transmited orally. The same goes for the other guy who is testing and who isnt a Zaza Kurd at all. Remember what I said the demographics among Kurds are very different from that what people thing and red here on the net. Someone isnt a Zaza just because he is from Dersim. 30% of Dersim is Kurmanji speaking. This is almost every third person. And he also has oral stories being from Iran. Many Alevi Kurds have Oral stories about coming from Northwest Iran. This is not the case with Sunni Kurds and the majority of Anatolian Kurds are sunni.






> Read what I wrote again, I never said the Iranians and Kurds were the same, I said the closest population to the Kurds were the Iranians, that does not mean they're the same.


ok sorry my fault. However your right that Kurds share more similarities with Iranians as Assyrians or Armenians do.

----------


## razor

Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))

----------


## Goga

> Even though I know that South Ossetians expected a lot more involvement, Russia actually stalemated this as you call it Georgia-South Ossetia dispute or as would I call it Georgia/America vs South Ossetia/Russia.


Some Ossetians are just a bunch of morons. Actually there're better of with Georgia, than with Russia. I mean South Ossetians had more rights as an separated ethnic group in Georgia than North Ossetians in Russia!

----------


## Goga

> Goga, your posts are beside the point, since you don't seem to understand what autosomal DNA is. Look it up and think again. Just friendly advice (=:)))


autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!

But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!

I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.

Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...

----------


## Cobol19

> *autosomal DNA is an admixture of both; Y-DNA & mtDNA!*
> 
> But it doesn't matter, since Georgians, Ossetians and Kurds are very close to each other on the autosomal admixture maps. All scientists cluster them together. They do all belong to the West Asian group!
> 
> I believe that the proto-Iranic language is evolved somewhere in the Caucasus. Because (Indo-European/Iranic) Kurdish language and Caucasian languages are very closer to each other.
> 
> Both groups have the ergativity construction for example...


Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.

EDIT: This should help:

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../auto_dna.html

----------


## Ivan

##########

----------


## Ivan

##########

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## Goga

> Take the advice and learn what Autosomal DNA is, it's not Y-DNA/mtDNA, it's 96% of your human DNA which has nothing to do with your Y-DNA/mtDNA.
> 
> EDIT: This should help:
> 
> http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../auto_dna.html


This is what I'm telling you all the time!

Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians. 
But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!

What don't you understand here? 

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf

----------


## Goga

"_Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples._

_Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations._
_However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus._"

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

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## Goga

"_Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]._"

http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3

----------


## Cobol19

> This is what I'm telling you all the time!
> 
> Some people look at the Ossetian Y-DNA and say, well it has very much G2 and little R1a so they must be Caucasian. But that's just wrong.
> We're speaking about their whole DNA, and it says that the Ossetians are of the Iranic stock and that their DNA is closer to other West Iranic peoples than to their neighbouring Caucasians. 
> But in turn all West Iranic folks and Caucasians are also very close to each other. We are speaking about 2 West Asian groups (Caucasians & West Iranics) which are very close to each other!
> 
> What don't you understand here? 
> 
> http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/N....AnHG.2004.pdf


Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.

The study says this:




> *Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups.*


This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:

*Autosomal DNA*
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../auto_dna.html
*
Y-DNA*
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../y_chromo.html

*mtDNA*
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../mito_dna.html
*
X-Chromosome*
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../x_chromo.html

Autosomal DNA determines which population is closest to each other, and since there's no Ossetian Autosomal DNA sample available, we can't determine how close they are to other Iranian populations, remember, they live in the Caucasus and do carry Caucasian paternal lineages too, so if I was a betting man I'd say they would be closest to other Caucasian groups in terms of Autosomal DNA since they live in the same area and probably have mixed for a while, but once again we have no evidence for that, so until some are tested, we don't know for sure.




> "_Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2[2]._"
> 
> http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=371&f=3


I fail to see how one would make a connection between ancient groups and modern groups without ancient DNA study, as far as I know, there's no ancient DNA found among the Sarmatians/Alans, and whatever ancient DNA that is found in the steppe area, none of it was haplogroup G.

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## Goga

But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.
Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!

They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?

Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!

I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???

Read this:




> "_Genetic evidence shows that they share maternal ancestry with other Iranian peoples but have paternal ancestry in common with their non-Iranian neighbors. The North Ossetians have paternal relationships with North Caucasian peoples while South Ossetians have them with South Caucasian peoples._
> 
> _Overall, Ossetians are more distant from the other Indo-European-speaking populations from the Caucasus (Armenians) than from Caucasian-speaking populations._
> _However, Ossetians are significantly closer to Iranian-speaking populations from Isfahan and Tehran than to Caucasian speaking populations. The same trend holds when we compare haplotype sharing between Ossetian and Iranian populations versus Ossetians and their closest geographic neighbors from the Caucasus._"
> 
> http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/ossetians.html

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## Cobol19

> But mtDNA is a good indication of who you was before mixing. Humans paternal line changes much faster than humans maternal line.
> 
> Also, study on deep ancestral supports the Iranic origin of the modern Ossetians!


A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.

Besides, the study mentions that they're similar maternally to other Iranian populations as in, they carry similar maternal lineages, but keep in mind that there's no such thing as Iranian mtDNA, these lineages are very old and have existed thousands of years ago before civilizations, meaning that many different groups carry them, so just because someone happens to carry a similar lineage that is found among Iranians, it does not mean they're Iranian, a good example of this is haplogroup R2a, 90% of these people live in India, but just because someone carries this lineage, it does not mean they're Indian.




> They speak an Iranic langauge, they're very cvlose to other West Iranic folks etc. They ARE Iranic/Aryan. What don't you understand here?
> 
> Your denial of West Iranic (Aryan) heritage in Kurds jumped to the denial of other Iranic folks in West Asia, LOL!
> 
> I give you even concrete examples, what do you need more???
> 
> Read this:


First of all, I never denied Kurds, Persians, Ossetians, or any other group that speaks an Indo-Iranian language from being Aryan, you're simply just stirring up the pot again, if I said that, point it out for me.

The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.

You talk about language? The Ossetians speak an Eastern Iranian language, this specific language falls under the same tree as Yaghnobi, Pashtun, and Pamiri languages, so once again, you have to expand your mind and look at the bigger picture here.

----------


## Goga

> A simple question for you, you have an Iranian tribe, a bunch of men from a Caucasian tribe come by, kill off the Iranian men and take their Iranian women back to their lands, eventually they start having babies with them, what do you call the off-spring? Surely, you have to be fair and say 50/50, or else you'll look like a hypocrite with an agenda.
> 
> The other thing is, I'm talking about genetics here, this has nothing to do with Aryans because being an Aryan is a cultural thing, is there some genetic connection? A very small one, on top of that the North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are also Aryans, yet for whatever reason you don't mix them into the discussion.


I don't have any agenda. 

And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
And now you're advocating the opposite thing with the Ossetians?

Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were! What did your ancestors?
But are you saying here that Kurds are *not* closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?

My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!

----------


## Cobol19

> I don't have any agenda.


By the looks of it, you do.




> And you're a hypocrite here. The first thing what you did was to put the Kurdish I2a in doubt in front of all people. Than you said that Kurds are not related to other folks in the Balkans with high I2a. That I2a in Kurds say nothing about their heritage.
> And now you're advocating the opposite thing on the Ossetians?


I did not put any doubt, I said that there not a single study that shows Kurdish I2a, all studies show I*, is it I2a? Perhaps, but it could also be a mixture of I2a, I2b, I2c, and I1, why the need to dismiss the other lineages? Do you have proof? If so, provide it, other than that, stop making stupid accusations and go back read what I wrote, I simply said we don't know what kind of I* was carried, which is the honest truth.




> Sure, North Indians, Pashtuns, Kalash, Nuristani, etc are all Indo-Iranic speakers too. And I'm proud that my ancestors influenced that part of the world too. Those folks are the living evidence of how great my ancestors were!
> But are you saying here that Kurds are *not* closer to the Ossetians than to Central Asians?


So now those folks are Aryans because of an influence? Go tell that to Brahmin Indians, see how they'll rip you apart, culturally they're just as Aryan, what makes you think they were influenced? Maybe your ancestors were influenced by Aryans? See what I mean? Pure hypocrisy, either you're all proper Aryans, or not, don't pick and choose based on your agenda.




> My mind is like a X-ray. I can detect anybody’s agenda!


Your mind can't even tell the difference between Autosomal DNA and Y-DNA/mtDNA, let alone calling it an X-ray that detects agenda?  :Laughing:

----------


## Ivan

##########

----------


## Bodin

> Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find* "Ancient DNA"* for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.
> 
> Soon we'll find out, don't worry.
> 
> ...


 Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying
Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1b
Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect you
about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague Iraetae
Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live 
Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?

----------


## Bodin

> *For the part I am concerned*, and that is your subsequent use of the word *rape*, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians. 
> 
> That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. *Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed.* Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.
> 
> Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.
> 
> Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen. 
> 
> Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange* but the real changes happen in time of peace*, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain. 
> ...


Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century . About mixing in Yugoslavia in peace - yes it was strongest then , but Yugoslavia in that time was not tribal society , in tribal societies it is forbiden for girl to willingly marry man from other nation . There use to be custom to stone such a girls ( present even today in some parts of Kurdistan , Iran and Turkey)
Book about settling of Ossetians:
http://www.nplg.gov.ge/dlibrary/coll/0001/000355/
Ofcourse all of G ( and others) didnt come from rape but some of it is

----------


## Cobol19

> Well you seem to understand and know realy little.South and North Ossetians are diferent - south are closser to South Caucasian nations and North Ossetian to North Caucasian nations - THAT COULD ONLY MEAN THEY MIXED HEAVILY WITH NEIGHBOURS AND THATS HOW THEY GET THEY G DNA.That has nothing to do with intermarrying


Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.




> Ofcourse Serbs and Croats are realy relevant when we speack about I2a1b haplogroup -they have most of it in whole world . I dont know what do you think we should talk about regarding I2a1b


Yes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.




> Yes there was some C in Andronovo , but you mentioned it in conection with Scythians , and that is why I neaded to corect you


The Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.




> about bad English part : You said Europeans are not Aryans , and this is not truth . Aryans is term used by every IE speacker , egzamples : Vandalic tribe Hazdingi used to be called Haria ; one of Frankish tribes is RipuArians ; Roman personal name Arian ; Ossetians call themselves Iron and they languague Iraetae


The Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks

And the Haddingjar were Germanic, I don't know where you come up with that word but Haria is not Arya, and I can't find anything online that connects Haddingjar with Aryans, so if you will, provide your sources please.




> Your arguing is also pointless because you dont have any ancient findings of I2a1b on Balkans , ofcourse Serbs and Croats would havea lot of southeast european autosomal DNA - that is where they live 
> Have you been in some diplomacy or secret service school ? You seam very skillfool in twisting the facts , and avoiding to answer the questions , I am well aware of all techniques of Black and White propaganda so it dont going to pass . What is reason you believe I2a1b is Balkanic?


You're right, there's no I2a1b in ancient DNA so let's stop talking about it because it's a haplogroup that is not relevant to the subject.

Btw, I said I2a1b is Southeast European, I did not say it was Balkanic, though I did say that it entered Anatolia from the Balkans (A genetic wave from the Balkans), that does not mean it originated there.

----------


## Bodin

> You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?


ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians

----------


## Cobol19

> ofcourse it dont tell the whole story , but it say some of it . No prove is god enough for you . You should look combination of YDNA haplogroups not only one of them , combination of mthDNA haplogroups, estimeted ages of haplogroups , and autosomal DNA ( its changes fastest - so its not so reliable ).You cant just take particle without whole picture and use it as prove - *so British R1b is closser to Cameroon R1b than to Russian R1a , but there are other things that make British closer to Russians than to Cameroonians*


Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.

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## Bodin

> Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).


Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .They called themselves Yasi , Asi ,Aorsi...
And please I would like to know what Poli means on Scythian , my assumption is that is Scythian word , accepted by Slavs and it means field . 
In steppes North of Black sea division of nations on " ones that lives in forest " and " ones that lives in steppes " was common : Goths : Tervingi and Greutungi ; Slavs Drevljani and Poljani ; Scythians : forest and steppes Scythians in Herodothus

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## Bodin

> When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:
> 
> You = 1
> Your parents = 2
> Grandparents = 4
> Great Grandparents = 8
> Great Great Grandparents = 16
> Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
> Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
> ...


Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry

----------


## Bodin

> You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.


He twisting things all the time

----------


## Cobol19

> Autosomal DNA changes realy fast , so in few generations most of settlers will resemble old population , so autosomal DNA is least secure way to find out someone ancestry .
> Yes Ydna and mth DNA showing only two lines of your ancestors , but when you compare population you will get many lines - and that is most certain way of investigating ancestry


Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.




> He twisting things all the time


Thanks for the useless contribution.

----------


## Ivan

> Caucasus is realy one of most turbulent places in world - so there was a lot of wars . There was almoust permanent war betwen Georgians and Ossetians during they settling on Caucasus XIII - XV century .


I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.

I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....

And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying. 

Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I. 

When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.

If I and G were two separate groups who waged wars then today there would still be a secluded group of I that was never incorporated in the same society as G.

BTW, Thanks for the book.

----------


## Bodin

> Goga, that study does not show any Autosomal DNA testing, I've been trying to tell you that there's no Ossetian sample to compare with in terms of Autosomal DNA, the study provided only shows the Y-DNA/mtDNA which is a tiny part of your DNA, I still think you're confused about this.
> 
> The study says this:
> 
> This is only mtDNA, which has nothing to do with Autosomal DNA (96% of your human DNA), watch the videos I posted, they'll help you understand what I'm trying to tell you:
> 
> *Autosomal DNA*
> http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/conte.../auto_dna.html
> *
> ...


If there is no proves about autosomal similarity betwen Ossetians and Iranians , but there is conection in mthDNA , why are you trying to chalenge Iranian - Ossetian conection ( based on what )?
I also dont believe Alanians were mostly G , but some of nations that made union could be mostly G . And you persistently repeating which haplogroups are found in steppes - is it resonable to expect lot of Sarmathian DNA in steppes - I dont think so , because they mainly moved west , replaced by Huns and other Turkic tribes since IV century up to XVI century when last Turkic tribe ( Uzbeks ) moved in , and in XIII century Alania was totaly depopulated and destroyed by Mongolians , so why do you expect Sarmathian DNA to be significant in steppes ?You need to read more history books

----------


## Bodin

> Of course they're gonna mix with other Caucasian groups, they live in the same region and some admixture will happen, but I'm telling you, their high number of haplogroup G2a is a genetic drift, that's usually the case when you have a very small population that has an extremely high number for one lineage.
> 
> Yes, but the topic is not about I2a1b, it's about Scyhian/Sarmatian DNA, so far there's no such thing as I2a1b in ancient Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, why are you even bringing it up? If you're talking about R1a1a, I would understand, but why the need to bring I2a1b? There's no logic in this.
> 
> The Andronovo culture was Proto-Indo-Iranian, they were partial ancestors of other Indo-Iranian populations (Which the Scythians are part of), and like the Scythians, they were steppe Kurgan nomads.
> 
> The Ossetians are Aryans because they inherited an Aryan culture and language, the Europeans are not Aryans because they don't have that culture or language, as for the names of the tribes you brought up, you're just turning things as you please, Ripuarian Franks does not mean Aryans, this is what it means:
> 
> http://www.enotes.com/topic/Ripuarian_Franks
> ...


No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .
Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian graves 
What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?
Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the Kurdistan

----------


## Bodin

> I know it is a turbulent place, and still is, with lot of wars. I never meant there were no real wars, I meant there were no wars as you describe them like wars between haplogroup I carriers and haplogroup G carriers who raped each other until one raping society prevailed.
> 
> I said there were also times of peace and small tribes usually did not fought great wars all the time especially among each other.That were more skirmishes than wars. They fought real wars with big powers like Georgians, Russians, Khazars....
> 
> And also war raping as an act of sadism over the victim never produced much offspring. That is what I was saying. 
> 
> Yes tribal laws forbid taking women out of Circassian tribe for example they were exlusivelly intermarriying in tribe. Again, here I meant that I and G were already incorporated in those tribes as an integral part as well as all the women dna and they then intermarried resulting a genetic drift with even more G over I. 
> 
> When I mentioned Yugoslav intermarrying in times of peace that was just as an example that times of peace can lead to change of genetics in a more dramatic fashion than any war could. I never meant to compare this to tribal way of life.
> ...


You are welcomed 
We havent understood each other , I didnt claim I and G make war against eachother , but incoming Alans in XIII century with most of I2a1b ( and maybe R1a and Q from mix with Huns) and Caucasians natives with most of G haplogroup . Again I never said G haplogroup is rapist haplogroup . sorry if I ( unwillingly) offended you . Thanks for answer.

----------


## Bodin

> Y-DNA/mtDNA is only useful if the area has a high diversity, if you have a population that are high with a specific lineage and the diversity is low, the answer is very obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the useless contribution.


You are welcomed to 
Autosomal DNA is less certain way to find somebody ancestry than Y and mth DNA and that is the fact

----------


## Bodin

> Yes, it's called Autosomal DNA, thank you for proving my point.


Not only Autosomal DNA but also mthDNA ( mor important ) and other Ydna haplogroups , you have to look all of this factors , not only one

----------


## Bodin

R1a-related lineages occur less frequently here among eastern Slavs, a main reason for the disconnect between the Eastern European plain and the Caucasus. There does, however, appear to be good diversity here, with the presence of R1a*, R1a1-M198*, Note again how the Iranic Ossetians (both North and South) have almost no R1a1 compared to both their NW Caucasian and S Caucasian neighbors, again, suggesting that this may not have been an important Alan or steppe Iranian lineage, at least during the late antique time horizon. The occurrence of R1a1f-M458 may represent Slavic influence in the NW Caucasus.

----------


## razor

> Yes it is .Alanliao is Chinese word and mean Land of steppes - and thats how Alans get they name , that is only explanation I have heird of , now i would like to hier your version of origins of name Alani .


Here's a prime source for you: the Hou Hanshu Cf. the footnote to their "Alan" text: http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad...u/notes19.html

It's the previous political formation, Yancai or Yentsai (sometimes confused with the "Antes") which bore the name of "great steppe". I have already stated the meaning of "Alani". It's not "my version", it's standard linguistics. "Alan" is simply the lambdacized pronunciation of "Aryan". Join a good IE linguistic discussion group like [email protected]/com. They have many fine linguists there.

----------


## Cobol19

> No Sarmathian ancient DNA was found yet , so why would you exclude I2a1b from discusion , it was realy probable Sarmathian DNA by data WE DO HAVE .


We don't have any I2a1b data on ancient Scythians/Sarmatians, enough with this.




> Yes parts of Adronovo peoples were ancestor of Scyths , but not all of them , and there is no found C in Scythian graves


It does not matter much really, it was only one sample that carried haplogroup C anyways, but it's funny how you're trying to downplay a lineage that was actually found in ancient Kurgan remains, yet you make a big deal with I2a1b when it hasn't even been found.

The message is very clear, I2a1b is your Y-DNA so you're pushing for it.




> What do you consider Aryan , which culture and languague is it ?


I believe Aryan culture started in South-Central Asia, that's where the earliest Indo-Iranian religions and traditions come to life, think of the earliest Vedic Aryans and the early Zoroastrianism traditions.




> Where by your oppinion did I2a1b originate , and when did it comed to Balkans , I already asked this , but you havent answered , this way it is realy dificult to understand what are you claiming .
> I to believe I2a1b entered Anatolia from Balkans after XIV century , but not the Kurdistan


I already said it a million times, I believe it originated in Southeast Europe, and it entered the Middle East from the Balkans, is that what happened for sure? I don't know, but it's my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.

Frankly, I2a1b is not the only I* lineage in the Middle East, I2c and I1 also exist.

Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup I2a1 was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...00723108.short

Here's the data:

http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...01100723SI.pdf

----------


## razor

> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/24/1100723108.short[/url]
> 
> Here's the data:
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...01100723SI.pdf


Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.

----------


## Cobol19

> Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.


I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site, and if I2a1b is only 2800 years old (Not sure how that date comes up), I don't see how anyone can connect it to the Medes when they're clearly older than that.

If he was to say the Iranians that mixed with the local I2a1b Southeast Europeans became the Sarmatian folks all together, it would be a more plausible scenario than making up wild theories about Medes carrying such a young lineage or trying to connect it with tribes living in South-Central Asia.

----------


## sparkey

> Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site.


The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.




> On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios.


FWIW I think Nordtvedt has it right here, totally... our best guess should be the Slavic expansion until we actually have evidence of something else. Thanks for the great summary of Nordtvedt's views, he's an authority who has been right more frequently than most others.




> As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.


I think Bodin sees some important evidence: that I2a-Din is young and not ancient in the Balkans (or at least has a discontinuity), and that there is a good deal of Haplogroup I in Eastern populations like Kurds, quite possibly including I2a-Din or even being I2a-Din dominant. So he comes up with a fairly romantic theory about Sarmatians bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans. But as several of us have said, that's not the most likely theory with current evidence, and it will need a good amount of studies on Sarmatian ancient DNA, or at least modern Eastern I2a-Din. I guess that it's not a disprovable theory, I just wouldn't take a bet on Bodin's side.

----------


## Cobol19

> The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.


Based on Y-Search, the closest sample to the I2a* STR's found in the Neolithic site is a person from Mexico (ID: AVC9H) that carries haplogroup I2a2*, which is the 2010 designation for I2a1b, I would have thought that this person might be carrying the modern I2a2 (Former I2b), but the paper clearly indicates that the samples found in the site were I2a1-P37.2 (Former I2a*), so if we're going by STR evidence, the closest sample is I2a1b, not I2a1a unless you have something I have not seen.

Btw, someone had already entered the STR values for the Neolithic I2a sample on Y-Search, it's ID FJQXG for whoever is interested in checking it out.

----------


## sparkey

> Based on Y-Search, the closest sample to the I2a* STR's found in the Neolithic site is a person from Mexico (ID: AVC9H) that carries haplogroup I2a2*, which is the 2010 designation for I2a1b, I would have thought that this person might be carrying the modern I2a2 (Former I2b), but the paper clearly indicates that the samples found in the site were I2a1-P37.2 (Former I2a*), so if we're going by STR evidence, the closest sample is I2a1b, not I2a1a unless you have something I have not seen.
> 
> Btw, someone had already entered the STR values for the Neolithic I2a sample on Y-Search, it's ID FJQXG for whoever is interested in checking it out.


Cullen's Predictor gives 100% confidence in I2a1a-M26 for the better sample, but isn't sure about the STR cluster it goes in (best guess is cluster A). Nordtvedt, Dienekes, and others have noted that it appears to be M26+ going by STRs.

----------


## razor

> And please I would like to know what Poli means on Scythian , my assumption is that is Scythian word , accepted by Slavs and it means field .


"Poli" was my typo. Sorry. It should be "Pali" (as in Diodorus and Pliny). "Spali" is considered a later variant (it appears in Jordanes' quote of a Gothic legend). I'm not sure what the word meant in Scythian. Diodorus contrasts this group to the "Napi" which linguists have interpreted to be "relatives" (or something similar) in ancient Iranic (perhaps something akin to the turkic "Pechenegs"). The interpretation "field dwellers" is a much later Slavic popular etymology. Whatever the "Pali" may have been originally, it seems that as time went on, the term became more and more associated with the concept of "royal clan" per se (Herodotus' "Basilei"?), and that whatever group acquired fleeting hegemony in the Iranic steppe world became "Pali". You no longer needed to be of Scythian ethnicity. The 1rst century "Spali" who created a "Scythian" power state between Danube and the Volga were Aorsan ("West" Alans). The "Spali" defeated by the Goths in the early 3rd c. were likely Alans. By the fifth century (if not earlier) the term had acquired the standard Alanic suffix -an (so now it was "Palan" or "Spalan" and variants). It has survived in East Slavic (South Russian more precisely) lore as the "Ispolins". It made its way into Armenian classical historiography [Zenob Glak] as "the land of Paluni" (but this could have been a Hunnic mediation). So there is no surprise to see it reemerge as the Old East Slavic "Polani". There were Scytho-Sarmatian remnants in the initial aristocracy of Kyivan Rus (perhaps the clearest evidence are the two Iranic deities in Volodimer's pagan pantheon of 980). But this is another story.

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## Cobol19

> Cullen's Predictor gives 100% confidence in I2a1a-M26 for the better sample, but isn't sure about the STR cluster it goes in (best guess is cluster A). Nordtvedt, Dienekes, and others have noted that it appears to be M26+ going by STRs.


What are the defining STR markers for I2a1a? It's kind of odd how this calculator gives it that for sure when the closest person in genetic distance carries I2a1b, here's another calculator which predicts it as 100% I2a-P37.2 but we already know that:

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

We need more proof to indicate that it's I2a1a (Which I'm not disputing btw, just trying to make sure).

----------


## sparkey

> What are the defining STR markers for I2a1a? It's kind of odd how this calculator gives it that for sure when the closest person in genetic distance carries I2a1b, here's another calculator which predicts it as 100% I2a-P37.2 but we already know that:
> 
> http://predictor.ydna.ru/
> 
> We need more proof to indicate that it's I2a1a (Which I'm not disputing btw, just trying to make sure).


I think that the problem is that Mr. Morales (YSearch AVC9H) is mistaken about his haplogroup... Cullen's Predictor also gives a 100% confidence on him being I2a1a-M26... and also quite confident as being "A" cluster.

Some modals are here (not entirely up to date but should be sufficient).

----------


## Cobol19

If we go based on this:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

I agree, the sample from the Neolithic site does seem to match I2a1-M26, a good question I always wondered about is, shouldn't it not make sense to compare STR marker values between ancient and modern haplotypes? I mean we know that STR markers mutate, for example these Neolithic samples carried a value of 13 on the DYS393 marker, who's not to say their descendants could have mutated to 14? I mean this is 5000 years ago, and I've seen more actual major STR differences in 3 or 4 generations which is peanuts in comparison, what do you think?

----------


## sparkey

> If we go based on this:
> 
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
> 
> I agree, the sample from the Neolithic site does seem to match I2a1-M26, a good question I always wondered about is, shouldn't it not make sense to compare STR marker values between ancient and modern haplotypes? I mean we know that STR markers mutate, for example these Neolithic samples carried a value of 13 on the DYS393 marker, who's not to say their descendants could have mutated to 14? I mean this is 5000 years ago, and I've seen more actual major STR differences in 3 or 4 generations which is peanuts in comparison, what do you think?


I think it depends on the haplogroup. I2a1a has an old enough TMRCA that a comparison between ancient and modern STRs would make sense, although we might expect the ancient sample to be closer to the modal than modern samples, which will have diverged different directions. If the modern TMRCA of a haplogroup is much younger than the ancient sample, however, we'll run into the difficulties you mention, and we will want deeper SNPs to be sure we're interpreting it right.

----------


## Cobol19

> I think it depends on the haplogroup. I2a1a has an old enough TMRCA that a comparison between ancient and modern STRs would make sense, although we might expect the ancient sample to be closer to the modal than modern samples, which will have diverged different directions. If the modern TMRCA of a haplogroup is much younger than the ancient sample, however, we'll run into the difficulties you mention, and we will want deeper SNPs to be sure we're interpreting it right.


As of now, I'm gonna take the sample as I2a1-P37.2 only since that's the only proof we have, while I'm not that familiar with the subclades and STR definitions with haplogroup I*, I have been heavily involved in my own haplogroup to know enough of STR's and SNP's, and I can safely confirm that STR's can be extremely misleading at times, which is why at the end of the day, only SNP's can truly define what is and what's not.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> Some Ossetians are just a bunch of morons. Actually there're better of with Georgia, than with Russia. I mean South Ossetians had more rights as an separated ethnic group in Georgia than North Ossetians in Russia!


And one of these rights is the right to be exterminated by Georgians.

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## Shetop

About Pontic-Caspian steppe as homeland of Sarmatians...
It is well known that it was very sparsely inhabited until just couple of centuries ago: Wild Fields. This steppe was a highway of many warrior tribes and it is hard to believe that large number of people could permanently settle there, grow in numbers and later spread towards West thus very significantly contribute to the gene pool of Europe. I think that in such open space it was hard to find shelter from an enemy, or just imagine cold winds in winter without a forest to slow wind speed down, or hot sun in summer without a tree which would make some shade.
I believe that forests northwest from the steppe were much more densely inhabited because they provided all those things which were problem in steppe. And it is well known who lived in those forests - it was Slavs.

So, my point is steppe should not be considered as a source of any DNA, nor should Sarmatians be as numerous as big was the territory they controlled.

----------


## Bodin

> We don't have any I2a1b data on ancient Scythians/Sarmatians, enough with this.
> 
> It does not matter much really, it was only one sample that carried haplogroup C anyways, but it's funny how you're trying to downplay a lineage that was actually found in ancient Kurgan remains, yet you make a big deal with I2a1b when it hasn't even been found.
> 
> The message is very clear, I2a1b is your Y-DNA so you're pushing for it.
> 
> I believe Aryan culture started in South-Central Asia, that's where the earliest Indo-Iranian religions and traditions come to life, think of the earliest Vedic Aryans and the early Zoroastrianism traditions.
> 
> I already said it a million times, I believe it originated in Southeast Europe, and it entered the Middle East from the Balkans, is that what happened for sure? I don't know, but it's my opinion and it makes perfect sense to me.
> ...


Why do you persisting in conecting Scythian and Sarmathians?
First : Balkans and Southeast Europe is same thing
Second : I2a1 found in Trelleis is I2a1a ( not I2a1b .Din ) and they separated from eachother 20.000 years ago

----------


## Bodin

> Here's a prime source for you: the Hou Hanshu Cf. the footnote to their "Alan" text: http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad...u/notes19.html
> 
> It's the previous political formation, Yancai or Yentsai (sometimes confused with the "Antes") which bore the name of "great steppe". I have already stated the meaning of "Alani". It's not "my version", it's standard linguistics. "Alan" is simply the lambdacized pronunciation of "Aryan". Join a good IE linguistic discussion group like [email protected]/com. They have many fine linguists there.


Yes you are right , my mistake . Thanks for corecting

----------


## Bodin

> Too bad they couldn't be more specific. According to the genetic mathematician Ken Nortvedt, I2a1 is pretty old and his suggested spread map indicates some of it followed the "close to the mediterranean" pathway surmised for Neolithic colonization towards the West. Reps could have wound up in that France site. On the other hand, he has computerized, on the basis of very precise analysis of the elements of I2a1b1 (the older I2a2a) that this subclade, which currently dominates I2 in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, arose not sooner than 2,800 years ago somewhere north of the Danube. He thinks it spread southward with the Slavic explosion of the 1rst millennium AD. But he admits the possibility of other scenarios. As to the Sarmatians, I think Bodin is fascinated by the evidence of Constantine Porphyrogenitus associated to snippets from Pliny, which has nothing to do with DNA of course, and which must be treated with much caution in any case.


 They were realy specifik it was I2a1a - most common in Sardinia and Basque , it separated from I2a1b 20.000 years ago . Yes Porphirogenetos ,Pliny , Lithuanian and Polish legends, Settling of 500.000 Sarmathians on Balkan during rule of Constantine the Great ( IV century ) , archeology that show no Slavic influence after VI century - only few Slavic settlements before ariving of Serbs and Croats ( Serbs and Croats settlements and burials are realy diferent from Sarmathian ) ,and many other proves I already stated

----------


## Bodin

> I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site, and if I2a1b is only 2800 years old (Not sure how that date comes up), I don't see how anyone can connect it to the Medes when they're clearly older than that.
> 
> If he was to say the Iranians that mixed with the local I2a1b Southeast Europeans became the Sarmatian folks all together, it would be a more plausible scenario than making up wild theories about Medes carrying such a young lineage or trying to connect it with tribes living in South-Central Asia.


There was no father of I2a1b in west Europe , it was I2a1a . Do you know what is estimated age of Haplogroup in one aeria?

----------


## Cobol19

> Why do you persisting in conecting Scythian and Sarmathians?
> First : Balkans and Southeast Europe is same thing
> Second : I2a1 found in Trelleis is I2a1a ( not I2a1b .Din ) and they separated from eachother 20.000 years ago
> 
> There was no father of I2a1b in west Europe , it was I2a1a . Do you know what is estimated age of Haplogroup in one aeria?


Because they ultimately have the same origin culturally, and the I2a1 found was I2a1, it's just speculation that it's I2a1a based on STR comparison with modern haplotypes, which I explained, is not a very accurate comparison due to the mutation that happens to the STR markers and the inaccuracy of STR predictions, that's where SNP's come on, and the SNP was P37.2, that's all we have.

----------


## Bodin

> The Neolithic samples were strongly predicted to I2a1a based on STRs. No real chance that they were I2a1b. There are several reasons to think that I2a1a was the most successful Haplogroup I subclade during the Neolithic, and that a lot of these other subclades that are common now, like I1 and I2a-Din, owe their current distributions to more recent expansions.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW I think Nordtvedt has it right here, totally... our best guess should be the Slavic expansion until we actually have evidence of something else. Thanks for the great summary of Nordtvedt's views, he's an authority who has been right more frequently than most others.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Bodin sees some important evidence: that I2a-Din is young and not ancient in the Balkans (or at least has a discontinuity), and that there is a good deal of Haplogroup I in Eastern populations like Kurds, quite possibly including I2a-Din or even being I2a-Din dominant. So he comes up with a fairly romantic theory about Sarmatians bringing I2a-Din to the Balkans. But as several of us have said, that's not the most likely theory with current evidence, and it will need a good amount of studies on Sarmatian ancient DNA, or at least modern Eastern I2a-Din. I guess that it's not a disprovable theory, I just wouldn't take a bet on Bodin's side.


Thanks for atleast accepting possibility , even Nortvedt didnt claim it is comed with Slavic expansions , he alowed other possibilities to . And Northvedt clearly didnt know anything about possibility of SerboCroatian Sarmathian origins , and conection betwen Medes and Sarmathians proposed by Diodorus .
For me the theory about Slavic origins of any nation on Balkans is romantic - archeology found in Balkans is realy diferent from one in clearly Slavic aerias except few early settlements from middle VI century- Serbs and Croats comed In VII century , and there is very low R1a , so low it could even all be explained as Germanic and Avaric contribution ( there is 7% of I1 in both Serbs and Croats , and only 5% 3.500 years old R1a in Serbia , and about Croatian R1a we dont know how many of it is Asiatic - nonSlavic )

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## Bodin

> "Poli" was my typo. Sorry. It should be "Pali" (as in Diodorus and Pliny). "Spali" is considered a later variant (it appears in Jordanes' quote of a Gothic legend). I'm not sure what the word meant in Scythian. Diodorus contrasts this group to the "Napi" which linguists have interpreted to be "relatives" (or something similar) in ancient Iranic (perhaps something akin to the turkic "Pechenegs"). The interpretation "field dwellers" is a much later Slavic popular etymology. Whatever the "Pali" may have been originally, it seems that as time went on, the term became more and more associated with the concept of "royal clan" per se (Herodotus' "Basilei"?), and that whatever group acquired fleeting hegemony in the Iranic steppe world became "Pali". You no longer needed to be of Scythian ethnicity. The 1rst century "Spali" who created a "Scythian" power state between Danube and the Volga were Aorsan ("West" Alans). The "Spali" defeated by the Goths in the early 3rd c. were likely Alans. By the fifth century (if not earlier) the term had acquired the standard Alanic suffix -an (so now it was "Palan" or "Spalan" and variants). It has survived in East Slavic (South Russian more precisely) lore as the "Ispolins". It made its way into Armenian classical historiography [Zenob Glak] as "the land of Paluni" (but this could have been a Hunnic mediation). So there is no surprise to see it reemerge as the Old East Slavic "Polani". There were Scytho-Sarmatian remnants in the initial aristocracy of Kyivan Rus (perhaps the clearest evidence are the two Iranic deities in Volodimer's pagan pantheon of 980). But this is another story.


 Thanks for explanation , I am going to look in to the matter , conection Polani - Dervljani and Tervingi- Greutungi still intriguess me

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## Bodin

> About Pontic-Caspian steppe as homeland of Sarmatians...
> It is well known that it was very sparsely inhabited until just couple of centuries ago: Wild Fields. This steppe was a highway of many warrior tribes and it is hard to believe that large number of people could permanently settle there, grow in numbers and later spread towards West thus very significantly contribute to the gene pool of Europe. I think that in such open space it was hard to find shelter from an enemy, or just imagine cold winds in winter without a forest to slow wind speed down, or hot sun in summer without a tree which would make some shade.
> I believe that forests northwest from the steppe were much more densely inhabited because they provided all those things which were problem in steppe. And it is well known who lived in those forests - it was Slavs.
> 
> So, my point is steppe should not be considered as a source of any DNA, nor should Sarmatians be as numerous as big was the territory they controlled.


Initially Sarmathians lived north of Caucasus , and for they way of life steppes were the best shelter - they were horsemens living in carts pulled by horses .And horses need grass so no they couldnt lived in forest . Historical sources mentions up to 500.000 Sarmathian archers - that is enourmous numbers for that times . R1a is also lived in steppes even longer then Sarmathians and survived

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## Bodin

> Because they ultimately have the same origin culturally, and the I2a1 found was I2a1, it's just speculation that it's I2a1a based on STR comparison with modern haplotypes, which I explained, is not a very accurate comparison due to the mutation that happens to the STR markers and the inaccuracy of STR predictions, that's where SNP's come on, and the SNP was P37.2, that's all we have.


Mait you loosing it . You are the one that said it was I2a1b found in west Europe (Treilles ) , and now you saying only thing we know it is I -P37.2 , are you arguing with yourself now?

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## Cobol19

> Mait you loosing it . You are the one that said it was I2a1b found in west Europe (Treilles ) , and now you saying only thing we know it is I -P37.2 , are you arguing with yourself now?


I'm not arguing with myself, you just don't read, this is the first message I put in regards to this Neolithic I2a:




> Ohh and one more thing, haplogroup *I2a1* was actually found in a Neolithic site in France that dates back to 5000 years ago:
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...00723108.short
> 
> Here's the data:
> 
> http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/20...01100723SI.pdf


Then me and sparkey started discussing the possibility of this I2a1, he mentioned that it could be I2a1a based on the STR's, I did a quick search on Y-Search and the closest one was I2a2 (I2a1b), though this person was likely confused about his marker values and *modern* I2a1a is indeed the closest to this Neolithic I2a1, the problem here is that STR markers mutate, and this is a 5000 year old sample, I've seen bigger differences between 200 years, let alone 5000 years? 

In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?

----------


## Kardu

> There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.


Kassites/kashkay were most probably related to modern day Circassians/Adygs (Georgian name for them is Kashagi)

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## razor

> In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?


Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)

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## sparkey

> Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)


P37 means P37.1 or P37.2... P37.1 and P37.2 are the same mutation but define different haplogroups. P37.1 defines D2, while P37.2 defines I2a1.

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## Cobol19

> Is there a difference between P37 and P37.2? I'm looking at Nordtvedt's I-Tree, and he only has P37 as ancestral to both I2a1a (diverging with M26 ca. 17,000 BP) and I2a1b (diverging with M423 ca. 16,000 BP)


They're the same as far as I know.




> Kassites/kashkay were most probably related to modern day Circassians/Adygs (Georgian name for them is Kashagi)


Who knows, but considering that the Hurrians were likely connected to the ancient Caucasians, there's a good chance that the Kassites were too, unfortunately we don't have evidence for that to determine.

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## Shetop

> Initially Sarmathians lived north of Caucasus , and for they way of life steppes were the best shelter - they were horsemens living in carts pulled by horses .And horses need grass so no they couldnt lived in forest . Historical sources mentions up to 500.000 Sarmathian archers - that is enourmous numbers for that times . R1a is also lived in steppes even longer then Sarmathians and survived


Historical sources tell us that Sarmatians lived on shores of Black and Caspian sees. If you look at the distribution of I2a1b1 you would see that its frequency rises with the distance from those shores. Why is that - because it spread from Ukrainian forests.

And if you would know recent history of Russian empire you would never say that R1a is on the steppe since antiquity. Great majority of the people settled there following a plan of Russian Emperors in 17th, 18th and 19th century: Zaporizhia; Novorossiya

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## Barxat

I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.

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## Alan

> I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.


The dodecad results are all from Kurds of Iran and Iraq. Central Asian means nothing for the genetic make up. It is only a geographic Region which was and is still somehow dominated by West Asian and North European components. The so called South Asian ANI is also added under West Asian because it is obviously a West Asian gene. Just the name South Asian is misleading. And beside this West Asian element we can find a good chunk of North European components in the Urheimat of Indo-Iranians. The East Asian component can be excluded because it is obvious when and how it came there. So West Asian(+ANI)-North European was most probably the original genetic make up of Indo-Iranians who lived in Central Asia around BMAC and Andronovo, which is todays Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kasachstan.

I agree with you Kurds are genetically probably 1/3 Iranic

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## Cobol19

> The dodecad results are all from Kurds of Iran and Iraq. Central Asian means nothing for the genetic make up. It is only a geographic Region which was and is still somehow dominated by West Asian and North European components. The so called South Asian ANI is also added under West Asian because it is obviously a West Asian gene. Just the name South Asian is misleading. And beside this West Asian element we can find a good chunk of North European components in the Urheimat of Indo-Iranians. The East Asian component can be excluded because it is obvious when and how it came there. So West Asian(+ANI)-North European was most probably the original genetic make up of Indo-Iranians who lived in Central Asia around BMAC and Andronovo, which is todays Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kasachstan.


Real South Asian genes do exist on a very minimal level in the Middle East, of course the difference is South-Central Asian vs South India, both exist but the former is the more dominant one, Dienekes had done a K=15 which differentiated ANI from ASI:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CMLu_oYC#gid=0

----------


## Alan

> Real South Asian genes do exist on a very minimal level in the Middle East, of course the difference is South-Central Asian vs South India, both exist but the former is the more dominant one, Dienekes had done a K=15 which differentiated ANI from ASI:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...CMLu_oYC#gid=0


My point most of the South Asian could easily be added as West Asian thats why the original study xing et al only recognized 2% South Asian among Iraqi Kurds while the other 7% were seen as West Asian. I assume those 2% ASI came with Gypsy or other South Asian immigrations.

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## Cobol19

> My point most of the South Asian could easily be added as West Asian thats why the original study xing et al only recognized 3% South Asian among Iraqi Kurds while the other 6% were seen as West Asian. I assume those 3% ASI came with Gypsy or other South Asian immigrations.


I don't think the South Indian in the middle east is Gypsy, it's most likely a very ancient gene wave (Remember that there was trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Civilization), not to mention that it could have come through other cultures like a domino effect.

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## Alan

this is very much possible.

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## Barxat

What is interesting about that links results is that Central Asian iranian speakers like the Pathan have large amount of South Indian at higher ratio then Iranians, which I believe is do to them gaining this at a later stage after the Iranian tribes split and some moved West and some moved further south who mixed with south indians and others mixed with West Asians.

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## Alan

> What is interesting about that links results is that Central Asian iranian speakers like the Pathan have large amount of South Indian at higher ratio then Iranians, which I believe is do to them gaining this at a later stage after the Iranian tribes split and some moved West and some moved further south who mixed with south indians and others mixed with West Asians.


Thats also the only possibility I see. Thats why I think, while ANI is really very close to West Asian and according to Dienekes seems like a small brother of it. The ANI component was most probably West Asian in origin just with a specific mutation. Thats why I think, the original Indo-Iranians West Asian (+ANI) + a chunk of North European. The North European in Tajikistan, Kazakhstan cant be ignored while there is a explain for the occurrence of East Asian.

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## Barxat

I agree I also do see that the Indo-Iranians likely had low or absent South Asian and gained this at a later stage people like the Pathan who gained high amounts from mixing with native populations in the regions that they settled.

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## Bodin

> I'm not arguing with myself, you just don't read, this is the first message I put in regards to this Neolithic I2a:
> 
> Then me and sparkey started discussing the possibility of this I2a1, he mentioned that it could be I2a1a based on the STR's, I did a quick search on Y-Search and the closest one was I2a2 (I2a1b), though this person was likely confused about his marker values and *modern* I2a1a is indeed the closest to this Neolithic I2a1, the problem here is that STR markers mutate, and this is a 5000 year old sample, I've seen bigger differences between 200 years, let alone 5000 years? 
> 
> In other words, comparing ancient STR markers with modern STR markers is not really a good idea, only SNP's can determine what is and what isn't, and based on that, the samples are I2a1-P37.2, do you understand now?


 Again you showing only partual data :Yes I know you said it was I2a1 in Treilles ; but when I in answer said: that it was I2a1a ; you said in post 500 :"I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site" What father of I2a1b ? I2a1b and I2a1a separated 12.000 years ago , and this site is 5.000 years old .

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## Cobol19

> Again you showing only partual data :Yes I know you said it was I2a1 in Treilles ; but when I in answer said: that it was I2a1a ; you said in post 500 :"I'm just showing that the father of I2a1b has been found further west in a European Neolithic site" What father of I2a1b ? I2a1b and I2a1a separated 12.000 years ago , and this site is 5.000 years old .


The father of I2a1b is I2a1.

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## Bodin

> Historical sources tell us that Sarmatians lived on shores of Black and Caspian sees. If you look at the distribution of I2a1b1 you would see that its frequency rises with the distance from those shores. Why is that - because it spread from Ukrainian forests.
> 
> And if you would know recent history of Russian empire you would never say that R1a is on the steppe since antiquity. Great majority of the people settled there following a plan of Russian Emperors in 17th, 18th and 19th century: Zaporizhia; Novorossiya


Not realy Moldova is on Black sea shore and have more I2a1b than Ukraine . You should read Nestor Chronicler he explain why I2a1b around Charpathians in Ukraine and Bielarus would be elevated .Most of Sarmathians moved west and later some of them pulled back from Balkans .Ofcourse there was certain percent of I2a1b that Slavs get while they were under rule of Sarmathians - we know about Avaric custom to spend winters with Slavic wifes ( so part of Slavic J2 is of Avar origin ), so why wouldnt Sarmathians do the same?
Steppes north of Black sea are proposed LGM refugee for R1a , Andronovo culture is on steppes to and it is R1a to . Even nations that lived on steppes before this emperors plans - Turkic had significant R1a ( Altaic ).

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## Bodin

> The father of I2a1b is I2a1.


yes but I2a1 found 5.000 years BP cant be father of I2a1b

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## Bodin

> The father of I2a1b is I2a1.


yes but I2a1 found in site old 5.000 years cant be father of I2a1b

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## Cobol19

> yes but I2a1 found in site old 5.000 years cant be father of I2a1b


I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.

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## Alan

hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?

There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.

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## Cobol19

> hey cobol19 I found another Kurd with I*. He is from Sulaymaniah Iraq/Iran border. His Ydna is I2b1* mtdna U1a1. Is that the Kurd you meant with I2*?
> 
> There is another Kurd from the same city with yDNA T and mtDNA HV.


If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:

J1c3
R1a1a
R2a
G2a
I2a1
E1b1b1c1a
T

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## Alan

> If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:
> 
> 
> J1c3
> R1a1a
> R2a
> G2a
> I2a1
> E1b1b1c1a
> T


is I2a1 the new name of I2b1* or is it a different subgroup. Dont know if he is on the Harrapa project but man R1a1a* seems to be a very frequent Haplogroup among Kurds.
Going by importance, from the studies and individuals seen so far. Haplogroup R1a1a*, I* and J2 seem to be the most significant Haplogroups followed by R1b, E1b*, J1* and to lesser degree G2a. rather small significant are T, R2a, Q.

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## Bodin

> I did not say that those samples were the fathers, I meant to say that I2a1 is the father of I2a1b in general, and it was found in the western parts, meaning for all we know, the I2a1 folks might have expanded from west to east rather than the other way around.


Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)

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## Bodin

That I2a1 that was found in Treilles was eather I2a1b or I2a1a , not I2a1*( X I2a1b , I2a1a) , and most probably it was I2a1a ( Sardinian ) and his descendants are still present on that aeria aldo in small percentage

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## Bodin

> If you're talking about the one from the Harrappa project, then yea, that's the one I guess, so far, here's the Y-DNA frequency for those who tested with 23andMe:
> 
> J1c3
> R1a1a
> R2a
> G2a
> I2a1
> E1b1b1c1a
> T


So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?

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## Alan

> So there are confirmed Kurds with I2a1 ?


yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.

I know about 13 tested Kurds so far.

J1*= 2
E1b*= 1
G2a* = 2
R1a1a* = 3
I* = 3
T = 1
R1b = 1

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## Bodin

> yes I2a* and I2b also an I1. But this is rather strange because I1 is North European from my knowledge.


Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army

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## razor

> Well it is from North Europe , but they moved to south a lot . Serbs and Croats have 7% of I1 each , and it is probably from Goths and Saxons ( settled like miners XIII - XV century) . Where from was that I1 - it could be residue eather from Galatians , or Varangians , or some other Germanic nation thet took service in Byzantine army


Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE

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## Bodin

> Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE


Yes posibly , but Bastarnae are quite enigma , they name say it all ( bastards , from mixed origins ) . They could be Germanic or Celtoi , probably with lot of Sarmathian and Scythian genetic influence . Also core of Serbian settlement was not in Dardania .Serbs entering Dardania ( Kosovo , South Serbia , North Macedonia ) first time in XI century during raids of župan Vukan , and they starting to settle there in XII century ( 600 years after arriving on Balkans ). So I would stick with Goths ( esspecialy core of Ostrogoth commoners stayed on Balkans , while only nobility moved to Italy at the end of V century )and Sasi-Saxons , they certainly had some R1a to - and it further decrease Slavic influence on Balkans.

----------


## razor

> Yes but that would hapen some 12-17.000 year ago , and it has nothing to do with I2a1b being on Balkans since Paleolithe - this theory that you trying to defend is imposible . I2a1b probably migrated several time during that period ( it is realy long period)


But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.

----------


## razor

I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.

----------


## Cobol19

Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0

The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):
*
Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians*
*Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%*
*Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%*
Mediterranean = 17.7% - 19.8%/21% - 15.4%/14.9%
Neo African = 0% - 0%/0% - 0.2%/1.4%
West Asian = 45.8% - 42.1%/42.5% - 49.3%/45.4%
*South Asian = 4% - 10%/9.3% - 9.8%/10.7%*
*Northeast Asian = 4.4% - 1.3%/0.8% - 2%/1.2%
Southeast Asian = 3.1% - 0.5%/0% - 1.5%/0.7%*
East African = 0% - 0.5%/0% - 0.1%/0.8%
*Southwest Asian = 3.7% - 14%/14.2% - 11.7%/16.7%*
Northwest African = 0% - 0.3%/0.2% - 0.1%/0.3%
Palaeo African = 0% - 0%/0.1% - 0%/0.9%

The colored components seem to be the biggest difference between the Kurds/Iranians and the Ossetians, this makes the Ossetians a little distant in genetics, they tend to carry more European and East Asian genes, while the Kurds and Iranians seem to carry more Southwest Asian and South Asian genes.

Also here are the Tajik values:
Eastern European = 8.8%
Western European = 16.2%
Mediterranean = 10%
Neo African = 0%
West Asian = 28.2%
South Asian = 17.4%*
*Northeast Asian = 7.9%
Southeast Asian = 7.4%
East African = 0%
Southwest Asian = 3.9% 
Northwest African = 0%
Palaeo African = 0%

----------


## Bodin

> But isn't what really matters the TMRCA? And we are talking about I2a1b1 not I2a1b. The wanderings of I2a1b are interesting (if wholly speculative). But Nortdvedt has apparently proved that I2a1b1's TMRCA is about 2520 years old. That's 500 BCE. And that's when we start with one mutated individual. How long would it take for that patriarch to produce enough descendants to make an impact in terms of population? Nordtvedt further argues (though he still is open to argument here) that this MRCA lived north of the Danube and that I2a1b1(N) is older than I2a1b1(S) (he does not say by how much). Verenic's claims are even more precise. Unfortunately I only have his conclusions not the specific evidence because the administrator of the website where this is available has not yet permitted me to consult the stuff. Here is the address: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...t=15055&page=4 In any case, if Nordtvedt and Verenic are right, the Sarmatians are out of the picture as originators of I2a1b1, since they were powerfully active long before its MRCA produced enough descendants to make a difference.


Yes but I2a1b N and S are present in both aerias south and north of Danube , so there is not clear diference , they could evolve in Sarmathians and slovly supress they ancestor haplogroup

----------


## Alan

> Finally, we have Ossetian autosomal samples:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0
> 
> The results for the Ossetians, Kurds, and Iranians are the following (The Kurds and Iranians have two values because they both have 2 different population samples from two different studies):
> *
> Component - Ossetians - Kurds - Iranians*
> *Eastern European = 7.2% - 4.1%/3.6% - 3.9%/2.1%*
> *Western European = 14.1% - 7.4%/8% - 6%/5%*
> ...


The taken samples of the new Yunusbay Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...postcount=5000

Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.

----------


## Cobol19

> The taken samples of the new Study seen as Kurd_Y in Dodecad are from Kurds in Central Asia. Their place of origin is North West Iran and Azerbaijan. Very interesting how similar they still are to other Kurds and differ from Central Asians.


Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.




> Another thing which I already knew and was again proven. interestingly those Groups who have high West/East European, also score high South Asian(ANI). The Armenian_Y samples have unusual high West European(6%) and at the same time unusual high South Asian (4,2% while average 1-2%). The same with Lithuanians. In the new admixture program Russians as well Lithuanians score some unusual South Asian. It seems like how much South Asian someone gets depends on what is taken as reference Group.


Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).

----------


## Alan

> Yea, these are Kurds from West Asia, look at the results with the other Kurdish samples who tested with 23andMe, they have almost exactly the same values, maybe these are Kurds that migrated to this region during the USSR days which is not uncommon.
> 
> Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).


Thats what I wrote. They were originally from Northwest Iran and Azerbaijan settled in Kazakhstan by Stalin. And it is very interesting how still they have no genetic input from Central Asians (though living there more than 70 years).

Here a documentation about them





Kurds from Khorasan(Iran) have been somehow influenced by natives because they live there for more than 700 years.

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## Bodin

> I have the latest archaeological info about the Bastarnae (Pashkova's masterwork of 2006). There's nothing enigmatic about the ones who left Moldavia in 29 BCE: they were Germanics of the Poeneshti-Lukashovka archaeological culture. And by Dardania I also mean neighbouring areas. Although I agree that other components could easily have contributed the I1.


 Yes they have some Germanic elements , but also lot of Celtic( strong influence of La Tene) , and Scythians ( they lived nomadic - when they crossing Danube they do it in the carts ) . Around Zvonigrad there was almoust identical culture to Dacians - so they were probably very mixed. And Roman influence was realy strong .And that settling in 29 BC was not realy extensive - most of them stayed on previous positions

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## Alan

> Check out my post again, I posted the Tajiks, I said this all along, South Asian + West Asian must have been the natives that existed in South Central Asia before mixing with the Andronovo folks who were probably mostly of European genes (East + West).


South Asian as a Gene doesent really exist the only thing I see is some populations taken as reference which mainly belong to West Asian-North European (ANI) and South Indian (ASI) components. Thats why those groups who score high East/West European also score high ANI. It all depends on the definition and reference population.

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## Cobol19

> Thats what I wrote. They were originally from Northwest Iran and Azerbaijan settled in Kazakhstan by Stalin. And it is very interesting how still they have no genetic input from Central Asians (though living there more than 70 years).
> 
> Here a documentation about them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kurds from Khorasan(Iran) have been somehow influenced by natives because they live there for more than 700 years.


Yea, there's a very small number of Assyrians that lived in Kazakhstan too (Where this Kurdish sample was from), they too migrated during the USSR days.

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## Cobol19

> South Asian as a Gene doesent really exist the only thing I see is some populations taken as reference which mainly belong to West Asian-North European (ANI) and South Indian (ASI) components. Thats why those groups who score high East/West European also score high ANI. It all depends on the definition and reference population.


If you look at the K=15, Dienekes divided the ANI to South-Central Asian and ASI to South Indian, but at that time there was no Kurdish samples.

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## Alan

> If you look at the K=15, Dienekes divided the ANI to South-Central Asian and ASI to South Indian, but at that time there was no Kurdish samples.


Yes I know. To make my point clear here another example. In this admixture of Dienekes even Lithuanians and Russians show up a good portion of South Asian(green) because he used a other population as reference.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AiqxfdH1kq...e-caucasus.png

such a "South Asian" gene doesent exist actually ASI is closer to South Indians while ANI shows very clear affinites with West Asian and North European.

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## Bodin

Some of scientific works about Serb and Croatian Iranian origin :

History of Iran 

Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats
By: Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, India
Jat Jyoti, Vol.4 no.11 (Nov. 2003) p.13-18.
(Magazine of the World Jat Aryan Foundation, 248, Ram Krishna Vihar, 29, IP Extension, Delhi-110 092)


Abstract: Croats as Hrvati, Haravaitii, Arachosians or Sarasvatians, descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the Harauti province & the Haravaiti or Sarasvati River. Their mention on legendary inscriptions of Darius the Great. Croatian flag based on the chessboard, Croatian religion derived from primordial Iranic Sun-worship. Common origin of Croats and Serbs. Their relations with the Sarmatians, Saura Matii or Surya Madas, the Solar Medes. False claims of The Indian Express refuted. Scythian or Saka origin of Jats. Consequent commmon origin of Jats, Croats and Serbs. Genetic proof for the same is presented. 

It is unfortunate that Dr. Sahib Singh Verma, Union Labour Minister, was not allowed to attend the recent World Jat Conference in Belgrade ("Sahib Singh wanted to visit Serbia to meet fellow Jats, PM put his foot down and spiked his bonding-in-Belgrade plans", Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Sad indeed, because there actually do exist strong connections between Jats, Serbs and Croats. Several historians view these communities as sharing a common ethnic origin as is evident from a study of the following submissions. 

Philology: Croats as Hrvatis
Let us commence our investigation with the Croats. The science of linguistics provides several connections with Iran. Thus, the Croats of Croatia call themselves "Hrvati" and their country "Hrvatska", whence the Croatian domain name on the internet is .hr. The name "Hrvati" is derived from the Avestan province "Harahvaiti" (Greek: "Arachosia"). The scientific philological argument for the identification of the Croats with the Haravatis is given in (Sakac 1955, pp. 33-36; Sakac 1949, 1937) As Dvornik notes, "P.S.Sakac thinks that he discovered the name 'Croats' in Darius' inscriptions from the sixth century B.C. There an old Persian province and people are mentioned, called Harahvaitai, Harahvatis, Horohoati..." (Dvornik 1956, p.26) Further, the Roman leader Ammanius Marcellinus mentioned that two cities arose in ancient Persia called Habroatis and Chroates. In this regard, Prof. Mandic writes, 
"The Croats of the Don, then had to come in ancient times from Iran. On a stone inscription of the King Darius (522-486 B.C.) the nation of the Haruavat-is appears among the 23 subject nations. The Persian sacred books of the Avesti (Vendidad) call that nation the Harahvaiti. The provinces settled by that nation encompassed in those times the southern half of modern south Afghanistan, the whole of Baluchistan and the eastern part of modern Iran. In that ancient province ought we to look for the paleo-fatherland of the modern Croats." (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1) 
Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam. Moreover, certain authorities note that the name of the Carpathian mountains is derived from Croatia: 
"Here the Iranian Croats mingled with the numerous local Slavic tribes and adopted the Slavic language from them. Meanwhile after the collapse of the Hunnic Empire the Croats organized the local Slavs into a state and gave them their national name. Before the invasion of the Avars ca. 560 the White or Western Croats created along with the Antes a great state extending north of the Carpathians from the upper Elbe to the upper Dniester. (35: Niederle, 263-266; Dvornik, The Slavs, 277-297) R. Heinzel is of the opinion that the Carpathians of the old Germanic Hervarsaga took their name from the Croats who called them the Harvate mountains i.e. Croatian mountains. (36: Heinzel, 499; Dvornik, op. cit., 284, sq.)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) 
Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration: 
Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan 
Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia 
Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea 
Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic 
It is important to note that the Avesta - the sacred scriptures of the ancient Aryan Zoroastrians - mentions the lands settled by the Iranic peoples. Hapta-Hindawa (ie. the Punjab, "Sapta-Sindhu" in Prakrit) is mentioned in the Avesta amongst the Irano-Aryan lands. Even today, the Punjab is the primary home of the Jats. Since the Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River, and the Jats are the present-day inhabitants of the lost Harahvaiti, it would appear that Jats and Croats would be very closely related indeed. 

Vexillology
Further compelling evidence comes from vexillology (the scientific study of flags). Thus, the Croatian flag is based on the chessboard, whence many Croatian historians consider Croats as eponymic descendants of the Sassanid chess master & minister Bozorgmehr, just as the Kambojas are eponymic descendants of Cambyses and Georgians are viewed as the eponymic descendants of King George II. In this regard, Prof. Mandic notes, 
"Ancient Croatian folk art bears eastern and Iranian traces, particularly the Croatian "troplets". The Croats also brought over from Iran their national coat of arms with its 64 red and white checkers. (11: Strzycowskyi, 15-63, 156-181; Dado-Peranic, op.cit., 21-24; Mandic Hrvatski kockasti grb, 639-652)" (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) 
Furthermore, 
"The organization of the state among the southern Croats with the king, bans and zupans at its head similar to that of the northern Croats; in addition the religion, national customs, dress and arts of the southern Croats bear Iranian traces, just like the Croats in the north. " (Mandic 1970, ch.3) 
Indeed, a total of 120 Croat and non-Croat university professors and several academics have published 249 research works elaborating the Old Iranic origin of Croats (Tomicic 1998). 

Folklore
A researcher notes similarities in folklore as well, 
"There are old Croatian customs and national poems that have been cited as evidencing lingering traces of the fire and sun worship of the Iranians. Fire, the essence of human origin, the sun, and the great boiling cauldron around which the warriors spring in the age old kolo or circle dance, all these are ingredients in the national lore of the Croatian nation. The Croat vilas or fairy witches resemble the peris of Iranian mythology. Then there is the legendary Sviato zov, the personification of strength, a being almost too huge for the earth to bear. He is strongly reminiscent of the "elephant-bodied" Rustum of Persian legend." (Guldescu 1964, pt.1.II) 
Research studies on Croatian clothing reveals similarities with Sassanian and other Iranic styles both in terms of male and female clothing. 

White Croatia, Red Croatia, Green Croatia
The Iranic origin of Croats is in fact the only way one can comprehend the traditional distinction existing between White Croatia, Red Croatia and Green Croatia: 
"After the Iranian fashion the ancient Croats ascribed a specific colour to each of the four cardinal points of the compass in the territory which they inhabited. The colour white designated the west, red the south, green the east, and black the north. (10: Saussure, Le Systeme 235-297; idem, L'origine des noms 23; Sakac, op. cit., 37-40) Hence White or West Croatia, Red or South Croatia and Green or East Croatia." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) 
Further, Dobrovich notes, 
"It should be noted that only the thesis of the Iranian origin of the Croats can explain the name "Horvath", the title of a Croat dignitary Banus, the names "White" and "Red Croatian", and the Bogumile phenomenon. According to this theory, the Croats were a branch of the Caucasian Iranians, who lived somewhere in the western Caucasus during the era of the Roman Emperors. The Caucasian Anten were another branch of this group." (Dobrovich 1963) 
Let us conclude this section on Croats with the words of the learned Prof. Mandic: "The oldest historical evidence, the ancient Croatian social organization, religion, national customs and art indicate that the Croats are of Iranian origin." (Mandic 1970, Concl.) 

Sarmatians, Sauro Matii, Surya Madras or Solar Medes
Now, the exact path of migration of the Croats from Iran to the Balkans is still disputed. Some hold that they migrated via Anatolia, others that they migrated via Central Asia and the Pontic region. Some of the latter historians link the Sarmatians with the Croats and Jats. Thus, Dvornik traces both Serbs and Croats back to the Sarmatians of Southern Russia (Dvornik 1956). The Sarmatians were generally identified as Scythians. Thus, Sulimirski, author of "The Sarmatians" also makes mention of the referral of the Emperor's to the Belochrobati or White Croats who "exhibited certain Sarmatian characteristics ... [they were] of Iranian origin" (Sulimirski 1970, p.190-1) Their interest to history stems from the fact that their matriarchial Scythian society probably formed the basis of the Greek legends of the Amazons. In this connection, it is interesting to note numerous reference to the fighting ability, combat skills, bravery and great freedom of Jat women - the Jat amazons. 

The name Sarmatian is an Anglicization of the original Sauro Matii, the Latin form of the Prakrit Surya Madra or Surya Mada. The name means "Solar Medes", in English, another testimony to the worship of Surya, or Cyrus, the Asshur of Assyria, the Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians, the splendid Sun-god of the Iranic peoples. In this regard, Mandic notes, 
"Indeed from the end of the I to III century A.D. in the city-state of Tanais, in the region of the Don, lived various Iranian tribes of Samatians as well as Croats who must have been Iranians. (4: Concerning the Iranian tribes in present-day southeastern Russia around the Don and the Iranian origin of the Croats, see: Niederle, I, 321-434; Rostovtzeff; Vasmer, I; Hauptmann; Nartical; Sakac, 313-340; Dabo-Peranic. For a summary of the theories on the Croatian name see: Sisic, Povijest Hrvata 238-240) Furthermore the national name "Croat" is of Iranian origin. According to the Russian Vselod Miller the name "Croat" comes from the Iranian word Hor-va (t)u meaning: the sun's bed or path. (5. Miller, 259 sq.) M. Vasmer derives the Croatian name from Hu-urvata meaning, "friend". (6. Vasmer, op. cit., 56) And the terms used to designate the high officials among the Croats, "kral, ban, zupan", are of Iranian origin. (7 Sakac, The Iranian origins of the Croats, 30-46; RP 195-201) (Mandic 1970, Chapter 1) 
Slovaks & Jats
Prof. Mandic notes, "The great resemblance between the Croatian and Slovak languages tell us that the Croats for the most part moved south from northern Slovakia. For they are far nearer to each other in affinity than to any other Slavic language." (Mandic 1970, Ch.1) Thus, the Slovaks would also share the same Saka origins as the Croats and Jats. 

Bosnia
Regarding the roots of Bosnians, Dodan notes that Bosnia is historically a Croatian land, that Bosnia belonged to Croatia in the early mediaeval times, that the majority of Bosnian population used to be and are still Croats, and that mediaeval Bosnian kings were ethnic Croats. Even their surnames end in "-an". Dodan quotes Draganovic's and Mandic's research according to which 95 % of Muslims and 30% of Serbs are actually Croats. He also elucidates the Iranian roots of the Croatian people (Dodan 1994). 

Serbs
Now, we turn to the connection with the Serbs. Several historians maintain that the Serbian ruling caste shared the same origin as the Croats. Prof. Malcolm recently wrote a book "Bosnia" (Malcolm 1996), in which he clearly elucidates the Iranic origin of both Serbs and Croats. For instance, Prof. Salzman notes while reviewing Malcolm's first chapter: 
"The Croats and Serbs (who were either Slavic tribes with Iranian ruling castes or Iranian tribes with Slavic subjects) arrived in the Balkans in the 620s, a land already occupied by the Slavs." (Salzman 1999) 
The view of Prof. Malcolm is thus that the Croats and Serbs were originally Iranic speakers who adopted a Slavic language (Malcolm 1996). Examples of a conquering immigrant group adopting the language of its surrounding subjects abound in history. For example, the Scandinavian Normans adopted the Romance French language in Normandy, while their ruling kinsmen in England adopted Anglo-Saxon; the Germanic Franks, Merovingians and Carolingians adopted the Romance French language; the Nordic Visigoths adopted the Romance Spanish language; the Germanic Lombards adopted the Romance Italian language, and the Tungus Manchu adopted the Chinese language of their subjects. Likewise, the Jats were originally speakers of Scythian or East Iranic languages, who subsequently adopted an Indo-Aryan language. Hence, that the Iranic Croats and Serbs should adopt a Slavic language would not be unusual in any way. 

The Croats were also commonly named by the medieval chroniclers as "Goths": 
"The old Croatian chronicle 'The Kingdom of the Croats' and the 'Chronicle of Pop Dukljanin', based on Croatian national tradition and on the ancient records, states that the Croats whom they misnamed the Goths arrived for the north through Pannonia and Templana (6) in Dalmatia, which they conquered and settled. (7)" (Mandic 1970, ch.3) 
This is important because the ethnonym "Jat" is widely considered a variant of "Goth" and its Greco-Latin variant "Getae". In this connection, Prof. Lozinski notes: (Lozinski 1964, Vernadsky 1952) 
"Professor Vernadsky [25. Vernadsky, G., Ancient Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; an older, less scholarly attempt in this direction: Cuno, J. G., Forschungen im Gebiete der alten Voelkerkunde. Die Skythen (Berlin, 1870), pp. 225-286] was the first, in modern times, to suggest that the Slavs had direct Iranian antecedents. The derivation of both names from religious designations, as suggested above, may be considered as additional evidence, especially as most of the Slavic gods bear purely Iranian, or Indian, names. [26. Vernadsky, G., Kievan Russia (New Haven, 1951), pp. 50-55; Krappe, A. N., "La chute du paganisme a Kiev," Revue des eludes slaves, XVII (1937), 208. Rozwadowski, J., "Stosunki leksykalne miedzy jazykami slowianskimi a iranskiemi," Rocznik orientalistyczny, I (1914/15), 95-110, esp. 110] One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27. Ulewicz, T., "Okolo genealogii sarmatyzmu," Pamietnik slowianski, I, (1949), 105-107], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28. Bohomolec, F., Zbior dziejow polskich (Warszawa, 1767-68), III, Cromer M., Kronika, 5, 17, 19, 28; IV, Guagnino, A., Kronika Sarmucyey europeyskiey, 1 f., 7, 13, 16, 513.; Magistri Vincenti ep. Cracoviensis, Chronica Polonorum, ed. A. Przeidziecki (Krakow, 1862), 76 (cf. Paszkiewicz, op. cit., 360); Bielski, M., Kronika Polska (N. ed., Krakow, 1597), Introduction, passim., cf. Chrzanowski, I., Marcin Bielski (Lwow, 1926), 101-108, 504. ] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29. Vernadsky 1952] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [30. Vernadsky, G., and Dzanty, Dzambulant, "The Ossetian Tale of Iry Dada and Mstislav," Journal of American Folklore, LXIX (1956), 234, n. 39.] It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31. Strabo, XI, ix, 3.] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation." (Lozinski 1964) 
Bulgarians
It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985) 

Anthropology
The Iranic or Irano-Aryan race as a whole is dolichocephalic (long-headed), leptorrhine (having long, narrow noses), tall, robust, dark-haired, large-boned and fair-skinned with straight hair. These features are found amongst the Jats, Pathans, Persians, Rajputs and Kurds. Due to the common features of Iranic skeletons with Nordics, some authorities consider the Nordics and Iranics as belonging to a common Nordic-Iranian macro-race. It is a further strong support for the Iranic origin of Croats that the Croats, and indeed, West Slavs in general, display strong Iranic racial features. 

Thus, the majority of Croatians today tend to be tall statured, with narrow facial features. Many historians consider these western Slavic features to be a trait passed on from the Iranic tribes mentioned above. The Alans in particular are thought to have had considerable impact on the Croatian racial "type". Now, there are three sub-types of Croats proper: Dinaric (Iranoid race), Mediterranean (Latinoid race) and Panonian (Slavoid race) The Dinaric type to which many Croats belong is often viewed as an Iranic sub-type: 
"In the central mountainous regions settled by the Croats upon their arrival on the Adriatic the Dinaric type of Croat developed. This type is quite remote from the general Slavic type. The Dinaric Croats are tall in stature (ca. 1.8 metres), long-headed but with a skull of short circumference (cephalic index of 80-85)." (Mandic 1970, ch.3) 
The main feature of the Dinaric sub-type of Iranics is that the head is long when viewed from front, but the circumference is short, giving the illusion of brachcephaly when viewed from the top. It is common amongst Armenians as well, and is often viewed as a breeding isolate of the Iranoid race. 

Refuting the view that the Croatians were of Illyrian or Roman stock, Mandic notes, ".... Nevertheless one has to say that the contribution of the local Romanized remnants [Illyrian] of the prehistoric Dinaric folk, hardly amounted to more than 20% to 30% in forming the Dinaric Croat." (Mandic 1970, ch.3) These Mediterranean Croats are "intermediary in stature, a little smaller than the Dinaric type. They have quite oval skulls, dark hair and eyes and an olive complexion." 

The Panonian Croats, however, are largely descendants of the Slavic populations. The Slavoid race in general (to be distinguished from the speakers of Slavic languages) is short-statured, brachycephalic (round-headed), with blond hair. Thus, 
"When the Croats conquered Lower Pannonia and Savia they at one began to assimilate with the Kaikavian Slavs of those areas. Out of that came the third type of Croat, the Pannonian, of intermediate stature, blond hair, ruddy complexion and of a rather sizeable cephalic index. .... [A] conspicuous type of Pannonian Croat was preserved up until this day. They of all the Croats are the closest to the general Slavic type in their physical and psychological make-up. (88)" (Mandic 1970) 
Thus, the round-headed blond Panonian Croats are not members of the Iranoid race, but instead are of the round-headed Slavoid race. They are, however, outnumbered by the Iranic or Dinaric Croats, who form the dominant element of Croatia 

Genetics
A scholarly Croatian society called ZDPPH recently held a conference on the Iranic origin of Croats, where genetic evidence was presented. According to the society's president Nedjeljko Kujundzic, "Swedish geneticists have confirmed, in 75 percent of cases, that Croats are of Iranian origin." (Hina 2000) Two days after the news conference, the book "Indo-Iranian Origin of Croats" by Mate Marcinko was released in which much additional proof was presented. 

Croatian elements among Serbs
Furthermore, even if the Serbs represent primarily the descendants of round-headed Slavs, there has been much Croat infusion into the Serb genetic stock. Thus, Mandic estimates that one-third of Serbs are ethnically Croat: 
"Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7) 
Jats
Where do the Jats come into this? Now, the Jats are generally held to be of Scythian descent. The Jat-Sikhs are also of Saka descent, for indeed the very name "Sikh" is derived from "Saka" (Sara 1978). Noted historian Satya Shrava notes, "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known" (Shrava 1981, p.2-3). Eminent scholars like Tod, Toynbee, Trevaskis, Keene, Kephart, Dhillon, Dahiya, Prakash and Bingley directly or indirectly connected Jat, Goths and Scythians. Thus, the famed Anglo-American historian Toynbee notes: 
"It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab." (Toynbee 1934, p.435). 
Furthermore, some scholars hold that the Scythians and Iranics originated in the Punjab and from thence migrated across the world. Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock. 

Conclusion
It is a pity that Dr. K.S.Singh, former DG, Anthropological Survey of India, erroneously asserted there was no Jat-Serb connection (Indian Express, 21/9/2003). Compounding this, he went further and wrongly bracketed Jats into what he called an "Indo-Pak stock". This is a term non-existent in standard anthropology. Indeed, Pakistan was first created in 1947. How can the DG's hypothetical "Indo-Pak stock" by any stretch of the imagination refer to ancient history? The length of this article has been necessitated in order to provide sufficient counterweight to the DG's misleading statements. He is invited to read the references contained in this article and correct himself. 

It is thus clear, Belgrade was indeed an appropriate choice for the location of the World Jat Congress. This article amply shows that close kinsmen of the Jats abound all across the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Now, given the tragic recent history of the Serb-Croat divide during the break-up of Yugoslavia, it might be more advisable to first establish Jatism in Croatia, for it is in Croatia that the Iranic connection has recently become official history. Sadly, Serbian historians are still split between the Slavic and Iranic theories. Once the first base has been established in Croatia, one may look beyond to the surrounding regions to develop further Jat connections in the Balkans. 




References:

Beshevliev 1967: "Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians" by V. Beshevliev (in Bulgarian)(Antichnoe Obschestvo, Trudy Konferencii po izucheniyu problem antichnosti, str. 237-247, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka", Moskva 1967, AN SSSR, Otdelenie Istorii) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/besh.html 
Dobrovich 1963: "Volk an der Grenze - Schicksal und Auftrag. Zur Geschichte der burgenlaendischen Kroaten," (People on the Border - History of the Burgenland Croats), by Johann Dobrovich, Burgenlaendische Forschungen, vol.47, Prov. Archive of Burgenland, Eisenstadt 1963, tr by Frank Teklits; http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-07/0931520170 
Dodan 1994: "Bosna and Hercegovina, a Croatian land", by Sime Dodan, Meditor, Zagreb, 1994. 
Dvornik 1956: "The Slavs. Their Early History and Civilization." by F. Dvornik, American Academy of Arts and Sciences, Boston, USA., 1956. 
Guldescu 1964: "History of Medieval Croatia", by Stanko Guldescu, Mouton (pub), The Hague, 1964; http://www.raceandhistory.com/Science/croatia.htm 
Hina 2000: "Scholars assert Croats are Descendants of Iranian Tribes", Hina News Agency, Zagreb, Oct 15, 2000 (http://www.hina.hr) 
Lozinksi 1964: "The Name Slav" by B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books,1964) http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat.../lozinski.html 
Malcolm 1996: "Bosnia: A Short History", by Noel Malcolm, New York University Press, New York, 1994; 1996, new ed. 
Mandic 1970: "Croats and Serbs - Two old and different nations," by Dr. O. Dominik Mandic, Chicago 1970, Nakladni Zavod Matice Hrvatske, Zagreb, 1990; tr. Vicko Rendic & Jacques Perret, http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/ 
Sakac 1937: "Del origen caucaso-iranio de los croatas" ("Of the Caucasian-Iranian ancestry of the Croats") by S. Sakac, Zagreb 1937. 
Sakac 1949: "Iranisehe Herkunft des kroatischen Volksnamens", ("Iranian origin of the Croatian Ethnonym") S. Sakac, Orientalia Christiana Periodica. XV (1949), 813-340. 
Sakac 1955: "The Iranian origin of the Croatians according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus", by S. Sakac, in "The Croatian nation in its struggle for freedom and independence" (Chicago, 1955); for other works by Sakac, cf. "Prof. Dr. Stjepan Krizin Sakac - In memoriam" by Milan Blazekovic, http://www.studiacroatica.com/revistas/050/0500501.htm 
Salzman 1999: "Book Review: Noel Malcolm, Bosnia" by Todd Salzman, Creighton Univ.; J. Religion & Society, Vol.1 (1999), http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/1999/1999-r1.html 
Sara 1978: "The Scythian Origin of the Jat-Sikh", I.Sara, The Sikh Review, 1978, pp. 15-27 (pt.1), pp. 214-233 (pt.2) (http://www.sikhreview.org) 
Schmitt 1985: "Iranica Proto-Bulgarica" (in German), Academie Bulgare des Sciences, Linguistique Balkanique, XXVIII (1985), l, p.13-38; http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat...r/schmitt.html 
Shrava 1981: "The Sakas in India", S.Shrava, Pranava Prakashan, New Delhi 1981. 
Sulimirski 1970: "The Sarmatians," by T.Sulimirski, Thames & Hudson, London, UK, 1970. 
Tomicic 1998: "The old-Iranian origin of Croats", Symposium proceedings, Zagreb 24.6.1998, ed. Prof. Zlatko Tomicic & Andrija-Zeljko Lovric, Cultural center of I.R. of Iran in Croatia, Zagreb, 1999, ISBN 953-6301-05-5, http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats2.PDF 
Toynbee 1934: "A Study of History," by A. Toynbee, Vol. 2., Oxford University Press, London, 1939, 1st pubd in 1934; cited by Sunny Singh (pers. comm.) 
Vernadsky 1952: "Der sarmatische Hintergrund der germanischen Voelkerwanderung," (Sarmatian background of the Germanic Migrations), G. Vernadsky, Saeculum, II (1952), 340-347. 




Identity of Croatians in Ancient Iran

The following books or articles are in PDF format. 



The symposium proceedings "Old Iranian Origins of Croats" (65 KB, in English)
Zagreb, 24 June 1998 


Hier is another one about Croats :
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...gin_croats.pdf

Hier is one about Bulgarian haplogroups :
pdf: Y-CHROMOSOMAL HAPLOGROUPS IN BULGARIANS

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## Goga

With all due respect but I don't think that the probability is very high that Serbs or Croats are from the Iranian Plateau or even from West Asia. I like the idea and like the idea that Kurds have some relatives in Europe, I mean why not. But something is just not right here. I know that sometimes the looks can lie, but I truly don't believe that ancient Iranians looked like Serbs or Croats. Serbs are just too light (white) for being of the Iranian ancestry. I think that the ancient Iranic folks had the same appearance as Kurds. Also Serbian DNA says that Serbs are native folks from Europe, they have only for about 15% of West Asian.

But it's possible that proto-Serbs (native Eruopeans) lived in North Caucasus and mixed a little bit with Iranic folks though. And after that they moved to the Balkans!

I don't know which scenario is right, Serbs are still very great people. I have a lot respect for them!

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## Bodin

Hier is map from Historical Atlas ( istorijski atlas , BG 1977 ) , showing where from Serbs comed to Balkans ( in VII century ) , and ProtoSlavic Urheimat :
Attachment 5209
And hier is map of clusters in Europe done by Y DNA str markers ( in work :" Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR - Haplotype groups in Europe ") :
‚11.png

Cluster 18 is made from : Larger part of Ukraine , most of Moldova , Romania , most of Serbia , Croatia , most of Montenegro , parts of Hungary , BIH , parts of Macedonia, norteast Bulgaria
Greece , rest of Bulgaria, south Serbia make separate cluster 
Central Hungary makes separate cluster 
Albania and parts of Montenegro make separate cluster
Most of Slovenia , Istria and Rijeka in Croatia are in West european cluster
East and West Slavic ( except Ukrainians)speackers and Balts are in East European cluster - clusters of East and West Europe borders on Polish -German border

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## Bodin

> With all due respect but I don't think that the probability is very high that Serbs or Croats are from the Iranian Plateau or even from West Asia. I like the idea and like the idea that Kurds have some relatives in Europe, I mean why not. But something is just not right here. I know that sometimes the looks can lie, but I truly don't believe that ancient Iranians looked like Serbs or Croats. Serbs are just too light (white) for being of the Iranian ancestry. I think that the ancient Iranic folks had the same appearance as Kurds. Also Serbian DNA says that Serbs are native folks from Europe, they have only for about 15% of West Asian.
> 
> But it's possible that proto-Serbs (native Eruopeans) lived in North Caucasus and mixed a little bit with Iranic folks though. And after that they moved to the Balkans!
> 
> I don't know which scenario is right, Serbs are still very great people. I have a lot respect for them!


Ofcourse Iranian on iranian plateau would be darker -they mixed with lokal semithic population more than Serbs are
About autosomal DNA - it changes very fast - in few generations most of newcomers would autosomaly be same as old population . Ofcourse Serbs would mainly be Southeuropean Autosomaly - they live in southeurope , for same reason Kurds would be mainly west asian - that is classification of scientist

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## Goga

> Of course Iranian on Iranian plateau would be darker -they mixed with local Semitic population more than Serbs are.





> About autosomal DNA - it changes very fast - in few generations most of newcomers would autosomal be same as old population . Of course Serbs would mainly be South European Autosomal - they live in south Europe , for same reason Kurds would be mainly west Asian - that is classification of scientist




My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin! 

Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?

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## Goga

> I have been reading this thread and like to comment about the Iranian ancestry of the Kurds. After reading up on some Kurdish DNA such as sites called Dodecad. I have come to realise that Kurds are mostly native west asians, but they show a pull towards Central Asia that is not present among other West Asias (apart from Iranians) which clearly proves that Iranians came from Central Asia. I estimate that Kurds are somewhere in the region 1/4 to 1/3 Iranic, with Kurds from Iran and Iraq been around the 1/3 range and Anatolian Kurds been far less maybe between 1/5 or 1/6.




You’re crazy and this is nonsense! Please think again. Sure Kurds are maybe for about 25-30% EAST Iranic (from Parthians). But I know that they are also for a HUGE part WEST Iranic. Kurdistan is the cradle of the Iranic people. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranians?
There’re just too much Caucasian and Mesopotamian names and words in the Kurdish and other Iranic languages.

Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan is of the Mesopotamian origin. It means 'monday' in Kurdish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushanbe



"_The Kurdish name for the first day of the week Sheme (Saturday) is in fact descended from Akkadian word Shabattu (In Sumerian Shabbât, Arabic Sabbath, Pahlavic Shunbat, Persian Shambed; Shamba; Shanbeh, even transferred to Greek as Sabbaton, German Samstag, Italian sabato, Spanish sábado, French Samedi). The Akkadian called the 15th day of the month, the day a full moon appears, Shabbattu._ *The question still remains why such an adoption was made for Kurdish and Persian days of the week*"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_calendar

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## Alan

> *My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same.* And not as light (white) as Europeans. *I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites.* But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. *Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are.* I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin! 
> 
> Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?


Goga, from a Kurd to a Kurd, please read sometimes what you write yourself. Look now for the X time and it will not change no matter how many times you disappear for days. As if you think that the facts will change if you disappear for a time , even though it was explained you many times. Look there is a huge evidence and I dont need to explain it every time simply because you dont want to understand it. All Iranians share beside West Asian, a good chunk of West/East European gene. There is no evidence that proto Iranians were only West Asian. West Asia might be the homeland of Proto Indo-Europeans but Proto Iranians evolved in Central Asia not in West Asia. If we really consider Croats as descend of Iranians, than they would have genetically as much to do with them as Kurds. Kurds having more West Asian, Mediterranean and some Southwest Asian by intermixing with native West Asians. This would logically weaken the West East European to 10-15% and Croats mixing with native Balkanians which would weaken the West Asian to 20% and strength the Mediterranean component. However it is still not clear if Croats are descend from Iranians but it is very well clear and proven that the title Hrvat indeed has an Iranic origin and has no meaning in Slavic. But if the Hrvats are descend largely from Iranians and did not just get their name from Iranian tribes is still highly debated.

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## Goga

> Goga, from a Kurd to a Kurd, please read sometimes what you write yourself. Look now for the X time and it will not change no matter how many times you disappear for days. As if you think that the facts will change if you disappear for a time , even though it was explained you many times. Look there is a huge evidence and I dont need to explain it every time simply because you dont want to understand it. All Iranians share beside West Asian, a good chunk of West/East European gene. There is no evidence that proto Iranians were only West Asian. West Asia might be the homeland of Proto Indo-Europeans but Proto Iranians evolved in Central Asia not in West Asia. If we really consider Croats as descend of Iranians, than they would have genetically as much to do with them as Kurds. Kurds having more West Asian, Mediterranean and some Southwest Asian by intermixing with native West Asians. This would logically weaken the West East European to 10-15% and Croats mixing with native Balkanians which would weaken the West Asian to 20% and strength the Mediterranean component. However it is still not clear if Croats are descend from Iranians but it is very well clear and proven that the title Hrvat indeed has an Iranic origin and has no meaning in Slavic. But if the Hrvats are descend largely from Iranians and did not just get their name from Iranian tribes is still highly debated.


I've problems with the connection to this site!

I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?

Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.

If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.

Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.

As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!

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## zanipolo

> Or even from the Bastarnae who migrated into Dardania from the Dnister basin in 29 BCE


Since the Bastarnae ( many say germanic people ) came from north of the Carpathians mountains ( actually original name was Montes Bastanae) and you say they migrated to Dardania , which is modern Kosovo. would you agree then that the E haplotype which has the highest percent in Kosovo , originated north of the carpathians mountains.

I agree some say the Bastanae's borders where the Dniester river, others also say the Peucini tribe where Bastanae

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## Alan

> I've problems with the connection to this site!


Good I understand that.




> I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?


Manneans-Hurrians, Elamites and other tribes.




> Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.


Ossetians mixed with Germanic and Slavic tribes? Evidence? Ok so are Pathans with 19,5% and Burusho with 17,7 % West/East European Germanic and Slavic mixed too?




> If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.


Are you even aware of the nonsense you post here. What kind of explain is that. Do you really think that Germanics and Iranics who have at least 3000 thousand of years difference among their language evolved on the same place on the world and out of nowhere started to talk different languages? The Proto-Indoeuropeans were from West Asia moved into the Steppes mixed there with North European Hunthers and Gatheres and a new branch of Indo Europeans developed. Out of this branch a part moved into East and established the Andronovo Culture-BMCA and out of this, the Indo-Iranians evolved.




> *Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.*
> 
> *As far as I know is hg. I in Kurds not from Central Asia!*


 :Wallbash:  

Dude now for the sake of God are you aware how much nonsense you write here.

You first write Indo-Iranians were from West Asia, than you write the West/East European among Kurds came from Eastern Iranians? How did those Central Asian Iranians get it if Iranians did not have West Asian among them? 


I dont understand how a person who is mentally in good conditions (what I think you are), can just write half of this nonsense and at the same time contradict himself so much. I really feel sorry that I expose you so much because you are a Kurd but man you should really stop to argue about this. You just make it worth.

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## Goga

I hope you will get the same internet problems as I do have now. Maybe then you'll believe me! I'm not the only one here with these internet problems!

I never contradicted myself!

I'm not saying that hg. I in Kurds is from East Iranic tribes! Hg. I is from the same people from Europe who also carried North European component into Kurdistan! Where is hg. I from? Hg. I is very rare in Central Asia and among East Iranic people.

I'm just saying that a part of the ancient Iranic tribes moved to Central Asia, mixed with other people and came back. And other part stayed in their homeland!

And Tajikstan was always influenced by the Russians. It was even part of the USSR. As far as I know in Tajikistan live many Russians!

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## Alan

> I hope you will get the same internet problems as I do have now. Maybe then you'll believe me! I'm not the only one here with these internet problems!


Goga I think you get me wrong, I said I understand because I know that some Users have connection problems.




> I never contradicted myself!
> 
> I'm not saying that hg. I in Kurds is from East Iranic tribes! Hg. I is from the same people from Europe who also carried North European component into Kurdistan! Where is hg. I from? Hg. I is very rare in Central Asia and among East Iranic people.
> 
> I'm just saying that a part of the ancient Iranic tribes moved to Central Asia, mixed with other people and came back. And other part stayed in their homeland!
> 
> And Tajikstan was always influenced by the Russians. It was even part of the USSR. As far as I know in Tajikistan live many Russians!


Goga all well and fine but this is still not an explain how East/West European came to Burusho and Pathans. Tajikistan has nothing to do with Pathans and Burushos. All Iranic tribes share a good chunk of East/West (NOrth) European as they share West Asian. What shows us that both elements had played a role in forming the Indo-Iranians.

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## Goga

Listen, I can be wrong and you can be right. I'm not saying that I'm speaking the true. But saying that there're other possibilities too. Your theory does make sense. But it doesn't answer all questions.

I'm just saying that Indo-Iranians and their proto-language evolved somewhere around the Caucasus and NOT in Central Asia! Who is saying that Indo-Iranian is from Central Asia? Have you seen evidences?

Some of these proto-Indo-Iranians from Caucasus migrated into Central Asia, and part of these same proto-Indo-Iranians stayed in West Asia. This group became a West Iranic group!
While the group of proto-Indo-Iranians that migrated into Central Asia on their way to Andronovo place they mixed with the Europeans and later with the local Central Asian people. They became known as the East Iranic group. Later part of this East Iranic group came to West Asia again (backmigration)!

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## Goga

I made a picture for you of what I think! 

Two blue arrows are 2 first migrations out of West Asia. Orange arrow = West Iranians and purple arrow = East Iranians.

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## razor

All we can say is that historical literature has some of the Bastarnae migrating towards Dardania (with the reluctant consent of the Romans) in 29 BCE. Their subsequent fate is unknown. This is backed up by archaeological research which shows that the Bastarnian Poeneshti-Lukashovka culture disappears from the Middle and Lower Dnister in the last decades of the 1rst century BCE, but the two other major Bastarnian concentrations (in Western Polissia and on the Middle Dnipro) remain in place. The P/L Bastarnae were Yastorf culture migrants from the Elbe/Oder interfluvium. The likelihood of their having anything to do with the high percentage of E in contemporary Kosovo seems rather slim.

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## Bodin

> My point is that I believe that Kurds were always the same. And not as light (white) as Europeans. I don't think that Kurds are darker because of the Semites. But it's true what you're saying about the autosomal. Autosomal changes all the time and it depends on who your neighbours are. I think that the deep ancestry is saying more and Y-DNA is a very good tool to trace somebody’s origin! 
> 
> Maybe Serbs became lighter / whiter because of native Europeans?


Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years . 
European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)

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## Bodin

> I've problems with the connection to this site!
> 
> I've got a question for you. Who lived on the Iranian Plateau before the Iranic tribes arrived there from Central Asia?
> 
> Even Ossetians who are heavily mixed with the Germanic (+Slavic) tribes have only 25% of North European DNA. And they have almost the same percentage of West Asian component as their relatives Kurds and Persians. Of course I do realise that the Ossetians mixed with the native Caucasians too. But Ossetians are a very small ethnic group and they still do speak Iranic.
> 
> If proto-IE folks are from South Caucasus, than Iranic peoples and their language are from West Asia too.
> 
> Kurds have 15% of North European gene, because of the Central Asian East Iranic people and from the same folks who carried I2a into Kurdistan.
> ...


It seams they just assign North European autosomal to I haplogroup . I have 57% of North European ,and almoust every Serb or Croat I know have NorthEuropean component near to 60%

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## Bodin

Scientific work that pointing out diferences in archeologies of Serbs and Slavs :
Djordje Jankovic

(Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade)
The Serbs in the Balkans in the light of Archaeological Findings
Source: The Serbian Questions in the Balkans, Faculty of Geography, Belgrade, 1995
" In the second half of the 12th century, Wilhelm of Tyr wrote that the Serbs lived in mountains and woods, that they did not know much about agriculture, and that they had many herds of cattle, much milk, cheese, butter, honey, and wax.[16]
This, still preserved, cattle breeding way of life of the Serbs was best described by Jovan Cvijic.[17] Their seasonal movements, singled out in his works, from the Dinaric region to the mesopotamia between the Sava and Drava rivers, and partly to the Littoral, gave an exact picture of the old Serbian ethnic area. The settlements were located in the mountainous regions, and in winter the pastures were looked for in the plains. The Serbs followed the same pattern in the Middle Ages as well, when they settled the Dinaric mountains, with many plateaus, and the neighbouring sunny valleys and plains suitable for winter homes. The arrangement of settlements and graveyards, the appearance of homesteads, the crafts, and the character of the population had to be in accordance with their way of life."
"The culture of the South Slavs is well known thanks to the researches carried out in Bulgaria, Romania, and in our country.[22] The settlements were located in river valleys, on gentle slopes, close to the water. Half-buried wooden houses had stone or earthen furnaces in one of the corners. In most cases only the quadrangular buried construction and the furnace remained intact. They burnt their dead, as all other Slavs did, and then buried them in the ground, with or without urns. Such settlements and graveyards on the territory of the former Yugoslavia are known to exist in the Danube and in the Sava Basins.[23]
The Serbs lived in hilly-mountainous regions. Their settlements with houses above the ground were situated on the slopes, close to wells and ponds. The fireplace was on the floor of the house, close to the wall or in the corner. Not much could be saved of these houses, so they are not easy to locate. The whereabouts of an early Serbian settlement have been established in the Pester field.[24] The only explored settlement is situated in Batkovici near the town of Bijeljina.[25] Shallow foundations of irregular shape - the remains of these houses above the ground - were found here. This settlement was populated throughout the Middle Ages, starting from the early 7th century.
The Serbs cremated their dead and displayed the remains above the ground. It was a special way of burial in the air. Only under certain conditions the archaeological findings of this custom could be called graves. This procedure with the dead is depicted in the Story of the Past.[26] These "graves" were archaeologically explored in the area of Luzicani.[27] Today, they are small mounds of about 3 m in diameter and 0.5 m by height. The construction of the burial mounds has not been sufficiently explored. Shattered pieces of the dishes which were used in the funeral and memorial feasts are sometimes found along the brim or inside the burial mound.
The Serbian graveyards from the 7th and 8th centuries were archaeologically explored in Ljutici near the town of Pljevlja, and on Mount Jezerska between the towns of Prizren and Strpce.[28] Since these burial mounds were easy to notice, they were also found on many other sites - on Mount Pester and by the towns of Savnik, Drvar, Grahovo, Srb, etc. A burial mound near the town of Konjic was partly explored.[29] With the abundance of earthenware findings, it is similar to the burial mounds on the Danube river found on Ostrovul Mare in Romania.[30] These graveyards can hardly be preserved on cultivable land with no rocks. In the Pannonian Plain, or on similar grounds, they could only be preserved and noticed by accident. The graveyard on Ostrovul Mare is not destroyed as there were meadows there, not cultivable land.
The graveyards with burial mounds are usually located near a water spring, which shows that there were settlements in the vicinity. As a rule, even today, modern settlements and sheepfolds are situated close to these graveyards although no traces of the previous settlements have been discovered so far. But, they existed and this is supported by indirect proofs of social life in the vicinity. Namely, in the Story of the Past were depicted pagan "igrista" (playgrounds) between the villages.[31] There, the pagan Slavs gathered, danced, and got married. In Emperor Dushan's Charter (1331-1355) to Chilandarion, in which the boundaries near the monastery of St. Peter Koriski were described, a toponym for one of the peaks of Mount Jezerska was "Igriste".[32] This means that both the Serbian graveyard and a pagan centre of social life were situated on Mount Jezerska, which certainly proves that people lived there in the surrounding villages. Such toponyms still exist. For example, in central Bosnia, east of the town of Kakanj, there is Igrisca peak (1303 m) and on Mount Javor, south of Vlasenica - Igriste (1406 m).
So, the Serbian settlements as well as their graveyards were situated in the hilly-mountainous region such as the Dinaric region. In these regions people mostly raised cattle. The line that connects the locations of the explored burial mounds denotes the area in which the Serbs lived in the 7th and 8th centuries: from the divide of the Sitnica and Lepenac rivers in the south-east to the basin of the Una river in the west. There are no data about the eastern boundaries so far."
"The area beyond these boundaries offers archaeological traces of the South Slavs and other peoples. The graveyards common in the South Slav culture, with the remains of the dead cremated and buried in the ground, have been discovered in the Danube basin (Celarevo, Slankamen)[33] and in the Sava basin (Laktasi, Bijeljina).[34] These findings determine the former northern boundaries of the Serbs. Such graves in the Littoral could possibly belong to the Croats (Kasic,[35] Bakar[36]). Within the boundaries of the medieval Croatia, in the Littoral, archaeologists found numerous skeleton graveyards which undoubtedly belonged to the Croats from the time when they adopted Christianity in the 8th and 9th centuries.[37] These graveyards determine the possible south-western boundaries of the Serbs.
Apart from the Slavs, the population that spoke the Romance languages also lived on this territory. The archaeological findings until the 7th century inclusive give information about the Romanic people or Byzantines living in the hinterland.[38] The Romanic people, known in the written sources, stayed longer in the Littoral - in the towns such as Durazzo, Dubrovnik or Zadar. The town of Svac, about 10 km far from the Coast and Ulcinj, is very significant.[39] The crypts in which the dead were buried in the Christian tradition were discovered in this town. Byzantine jewellery, dishes, and other objects known in the Byzantine regions extending from Crimea, across Sicily, to Istria were found lying by the skeletons. The objects of the Slav origin, such as pots made on a slow wheel and decorated with a comb, were also found. Similar graveyards were also discovered in Durazzo.[40]"
"These Byzantine graveyards are particularly important for establishing the origin of the Koman-Kruje culture. This culture appeared at the end of the 7th century and disappeared in the 9th. Albanian scientists are trying to use this culture in order to prove the continuity between the old Romanized population and the Albanians of today.[41] However, these skeleton graveyards conceal the remains of special costumes and presents. Unique buckles, shackles known with some nomads, axes as weapons, and imported Byzantine jewellery were found. These findings differentiate this population from the Romanic people of Svac and Durazzo, where there are no such objects. Since the graveyards in the Koman-Kruje culture are situated in the mountains, one should have in mind cattle breeders here. They lived in the area from Mount Rumija to Ohrid Lake. Everything points to the fact that the bearers of the Koman-Kruje culture arrived there at the end of the 7th century.[42] They were probably settled in the region in order to defend the Durazzo-Salonica road, and they were destroyed when the Bulgarians started spreading in the hinterland of Durazzo in the 9th century.
Archaeological findings of the South Slav, Romanic, and Croatian tribes as well as of the Koman-Kruje culture delineate the ethnic area of the Serbs. It is necessary to point out that all the archaeological data on the Serbs coincide with those of their neighbours."




Dr Djordje Jankovic
Assistant Professor in the Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Philosophy, University of Belgrade. He teaches Medieval Archaeology from the 4th to the 17th centuries. He has published about twenty scientific papers in medieval archaeology, in particular within the area of Slav Archaeology.

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## Alan

> Color of skin is not realy important , it changes with climate , what realy matters is bone shape . Serbs lived in colder aerias and Kurds in wormer ones . If you would move Kurds in Norge , they would become much lighter in few hundred years . 
> European E haplogroup is much more lighter than than East African ( look Austrians and Etiopeans)


I can confirm you. I have the same observation. But from my observation it has less to do with the heat rather than solar latitude and clear sky. In Regions were the Sun is hide behind clouds and there is more fog, the People are usually lighter. Also living conditions and food play a role in physical appearance.

The Skin color varies from Pink-Pale to light olive.



In Regions were the sky is more clear and the people have more direct contact with the sun on their skin, they have usually a tan and look darker.


The Genes a person carries is the Hardware. These Hardwares usually have their own latitude of phenotypes and skin color (Caucasians have a huge latitude of skin color, Sub Saharan Africans less) depending on which software you install (Living conditions, Solar latitude and food).

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## Yetos

just a thought, 

has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians, 

area of Samara north east of Caucas, 

the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians, 

Not a theory, just a thought,

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## zanipolo

> just a thought, 
> 
> has anybody thought that word sarmatians may come from word Samartians, 
> 
> area of Samara north east of Caucas, 
> 
> the people of Samara = samartians, for easy spell become Sarmatians, 
> 
> Not a theory, just a thought,


Thats where they where once, they pushed the germanic Bastanae and goths eastward in the 3rd century

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## Sergius

I was impressed by the strongest and most valid argument based on the nomination of the currency Dinar. By the way, how Roman Denarius fits into the frame? This political theory is quite old and starts more than a century ago with the need of Croats to differ from their neighbors. Before of that other theories were launched to make difference between Slav speakers on Balkans. Each and every of them was not waterproof at all and all of them ended miserably. JAT people do have the same problem, how to differ from Hindi and Pakistani people.

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## Bodin

I am back !
First : when you looking for words with common origins just remove vowels so Samara ( SMR ) and Saramathian ( SRMTH) do not have same origins .
Second : name of Roman currency Denarius is taken from Persian currency - Tadaaaah : Iranian origin . Also mountain Dinara and Dinaric chain of mountains is place originaly inhabited by Serbs and Croats ( Belgrad is inhabitet by Serbs only since XIV century )and it also have Iranic name.

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## Sergius

*Dinar started with Sassanid Dynasty (224 – 651 AD) in Persia. It is far later than Roman Denarius coin was in circulation. Manipulation with similar toponymes has been many times the way to false conclusions so let us drop Dinara, Beograd… I would like, better I would love to be a descendent of great Sarmatia but one is troubling me: Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2500/ 2,800 years. Meaning that the first carrier was born around 7th century BC. This guy had to be hyperactive and he had to have at least 100 concubines to create an army capable to control 1/3 of Europe just in few centuries after his birth.*

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## razor

Even worse for Bodin. Nordtvedt has refined his computations. Dinaric (N) has a MRCA who was born around 300 BCE and Dinaric (S) has a MRCA born around 30 BCE.

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## Bodin

Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes . 
But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away

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## Bodin

By the way nice COA of Černojević dinasty , with very nice Sarmathian dragon on helmet - hail societatis draconistratum

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## razor

> Well Sarmathian as all of Iranic were known to have many wifes . 
> But the common ancestor of I2a1b N and S was slowly replaced by Din S and Din N. And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs . If I2a1b is brought by Slavs, than Serbs would also have lot more of Slavic R1a ( 3.500 years old ) - not only 5% , and most of that was brought by Goths - so Slavic influence is realy small .
> Only conection is languague and desire of ortodox church to Serbs and Russians be close as plausible because they are both ortodox and that is god way to keep catholicism away


The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers! 
Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.

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## Sergius

Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes. 
One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called *Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.* 
*At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.* 
I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The *Dragon of Tanais* /Ivo Biondic;* Mitjel Yoshamya*/ Iranian name for *Mihovil Lovrić*). 
Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
No offence meant and I hope none taken.

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## razor

> And what about diferences in archeology betwen Serbs and Croats and Slavs .


I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.

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## Bodin

> The genetic markers of Slavs were manifold, with I2a1b1 and R1a-M458 predominating. During the Slavic expansion more I2a pushed south and more R1a pushed west and north. BTW I2a1b1 (N)= Din N, and I2a1b1 (S)= Din S. These are not different markers! 
> Why would Sarmatians have massively switched to the language of a small minority which acc. to you wasn't even dominant? This makes no sense at all I'm afraid.


 And why would all R1a go north and I2a1b south , they didnt have genetic in that times so they could separate that way ?
Yes it makes sence , there is few posibilities : maybe slavic was lingua franca in Hunic empire , maybe Sarmathians married Slavic womens and than went to war ( both Sarmathian men and woman use to go to war ) and Slavs womans stayed with childs and childs learned slavic languague - childrens always learn languague of mothers - same thing happened in Basque

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## Bodin

> Once again: I would love that you are right. On the other hand I can’t accept something that does not seem based on reality/ facts that are easily proven. As far as I can see Dinaric people are from the border of Germany and Poland. Rotkovic has written a very good book about Montenegrin ancestors and their homeland – Eastern Germany now days. He places Serbs and Croats as their neighbors. This was done 10 years before Nordvet studies – he puts there the first bearer of DIN around Vistula. Rotkovic has found more than 800 rivers, lakes, cities, villages existing today in Montenegro and their matches in old German church books. Moreover, they located in the same way/ sequence in MNE as they were located in Eastern Germany/ Western Poland. These facts with other provided do make us now able to locate the homeland of Montenegrins, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. They were Slav Speakers but fully independent and respected by Saxons and ancient Polish tribes. 
> One more that bothers me about “your” theory is BAD COMPANY. The promoters of the idea are persons that do not have real scientific background. Just check the “language” called *Gan-Veyãn and legends related to the story/ crucial proofs of Iranian ancestry. According to the legends told by Gan- Veyan spekers 6 ships coming from Persia have have conquered the Adriatic coast and islands. Every ship would have to carry 10.000 persons on board to invade and populate densly populated region. The climax of the story is that Croat sailors have saild to both Americas before Vikings and before Columbus. Also they have saild to the Far East and there one could find millions of decendens with Dinaric genes just because of the fact that Croats are superb lovers/ undisputed champions of girls worlwide. All the time they were singing „Marjane, Marjane“ song while discovering Americas and Far East, also during sessions with Far East girls.* 
> *At the present is hard to find people speaking Gan-Veyan due to the fact that comunist partisans were deliberatlly killing them to wipe out any of their presence at the end of the II World War. The goal was to extint any proof of Iranic population existance on Balcans. Of course they did those kind of attrocities – they were devotid to the goal to kill all Gan- Vayan speakers. Germans, Italians and others were secondary target.* 
> I have made it funny on purpose because these individuals promoting the idea are quite funny (The *Dragon of Tanais* /Ivo Biondic;* Mitjel Yoshamya*/ Iranian name for *Mihovil Lovrić*). 
> Something fishy about the construction coming from them and arguments they are using.
> No offence meant and I hope none taken.


 None taken offcourse we are hier to debate .
The same stories were spocken about Slavic ancestry of Balkanic nations - they even claimed Goths , Bastarnae , Swede , Sarmathae , Heruli ,... to be Slavic , they claimed Slavs conquered Egypt , ... Slavs are from Atlantis ,... There is always peoples ready to make fairy tales . So dont look every one that walks with me , when you judge me.
And yes Serbs used to live in Bohemia ( Czech republik ) , Lužica ( Deutschland ) and parts of Bavaria and west Poland before moving to Balkans and Croats in Czech and Moravia , so river names simmilar to ours there are not suprise . You probably missunderstud me I havent said Sarmathians comed to Balkans directly from steppes - they are moving to west since 2 century AD.
And in that times there was no separate Montengro nation it was born in XVII century and created of Serbs ( in Sandžak = Brda part of Rascia not Dioclitia) , Serbs and Red Croats in East Hercegovina ( Nikšić ) , Red Croats and Albanians in Dioclitia . I am not trying to say Montenegros are not separate nation today

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## Bodin

> I'm wondering about your archaeological quote from Dr. Jankovic. Are you sure he's talking about Serbs and not about Vlachs? Vlachs and some Albanians were transhumant pastoralists.


 No he is speacking about Serbs and Croats - they were pastoralists - look at Hercegovina anybody who live of agriculture would never survive there - and that is main place of Serbo-Croatian settling . Serbs and Croats settled mountains , not plains , and in any scientific book you would find that they were mainly pastoralists and use agriculture only as bonus income . They also never made villages next to river banks like Slavs , they villages are alway on hils few miles from river

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## Sergius

I am not talking about similarities in names of rivers, villages, mountains. I am talking about Montenegrin ancestors moving complete “geography” in new homeland. Meaning that all of them are identically named and placed in the same order as they were in old homeland. Reason? To keep the memory, to keep the magic order….
This facts coupled with new dating of Dinaric haplotype are in perfect correspondence. The first bearer near Vistula, ancestors of Montenegrins, ancestors of Serbs and ancestors Croats located there near Vistula several centuries later in the same region. Moved together as neighbors to Balkans with A LOT of other Slavs, Goths…. Everything has sense and it is in logical order.
About Iranian influence on Balkan nations – you are right of course. As great nation and great civilization they did influence whole of Europe. The problem is that our history is a way to Eurocentric. Egypt, Persia, India, China… They did not exist and everything starts with ancient Greeks just because they lived in Europe. Taking that fact into account one must be aware that influence of Persia was always on the margin of European history. This influence has changed a lot Europeans and Slavs among them. The influence does not have to be necessarily by genes. Take as example Khazars and Jewish influence that has shaped their kingdom without influence of major number of Jewish newcomers. Culture, symbols, terms, religion, music can move around just due to the fact that is superior.
P.S. Just take into consideration what kind of European Cuisine we would have without Persian influence. BLJAK!

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## Sergius

You are right about Montenegrins – at the time being they did not form a nation and my term is Montenegrin ancestors. The same goes for Serbs and Croats.
About forming all of modern Balkan nations I can tell you something that slowly starts to be accepted in EX of Yugoslavia. Mostly they are a product of religious efforts and they are basically formed around one of 3 major religions. Therefore theories like Iranian one are needed to strengthen to myth.

Check the language in Croatia and you must see many dialects of different Slav origin. Some are so far apart that they communicate easily only using the official language. The same goes for Serbs. 
The cohesive force was the Catholic Church in Croatia. Please be kind to find IVAN MUŽIĆ and his HRVATSKA POVIJEST DEVETOGA STOLJEĆA. He places first Croats settlers in Lika and Krbava. Around them he places other Slavs, Latin people, Dalmatians…. 
Therefore, I would not go so far to place Red Croats on modern soil of Montenegro so easily. The fact that they have made wars latter conquering each other territories, intermarriages of nobles and inheritance of the thrones are not proving Croat, Serb or Bosnian ethnical movements towards Montenegro

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## Maciamo

Old thread, but I haven't contributed yet. So here are my thoughts.

The Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian-speakers. Like all Indo-Iranian people, they descended from the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), itself descended from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE) in the forest-steppe zone of central European Russia. As such, the Scythians and Sarmatians were essentially an R1a people. 

However, the Proto-Iranians conquered other Indo-European tribes from the Pontic Steppe and Central Asia, notably in Chorasmia, Margiana and Bactria. These people must have included a substantial number of R1b (M269 and M73) lineages, as well as minorities of G1, G2a3b1 and J2. Around modern Ukraine it is reasonable to think that I2a1b (M423) people were assimilated by the Scythians and Sarmatians, although I doubt that I2a1b lineages were part of the original Iranian speakers.

Judging from the haplogroups found among the Pashtuns of Afghanistan, speakers of an East Iranian language descended from Scythian, and the Ossetians, who claim to descend from the Alans/Sarmatians and speak a language descended from Sarmatian, it is very likely that the Scytho-Sarmatians were an admixture of R1a, R1b, G2a and J2a. It is odd, however, to see the huge discrepency between the haplogroups of the Ossetians (mostly G2a, with some R1b and J2a, but hardly any R1a) and the Pashtuns (55% of R1a, with some G2a and J2a). That may be because the Alans were an ethnically different people from the mainstream Sarmatians. The Alans were probably not even an ethnic group in themselves, but rather a coalition of different people, as the 4th-century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus explained.

Overall, I believe that over 50% (perhaps as much as 80%) of Scythians and Sarmatians paternal lineages must have been R1a, and mostly the eastern R1a-Z93 (+ subclades). The biggest minority haplogroup would have been R1b (10-20% of the total). Then minor percentages of G2a, J2 and maybe traces of T.

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## Robert6

Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex. 
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/...3e6362.jpg/htm

"Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru...e4bb03.jpg/htm
http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg

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## LeBrok

> Map of work "Early Scythians and the ancient East. On the history of the formation of the Scythian culture "Pogrebova M.N, Raevskii D.S, 1992, showing the boundary of the formation of the early Scythian culture complex. 
> http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s52.radikal.ru/...3e6362.jpg/htm
> 
> "Borders" of early Scythian culture(West Caucasus, and North-West Iran) and haplogroup G
> http://f-lite.ru/lfp/s017.radikal.ru...e4bb03.jpg/htm
> http://alterling2.narod.ru/Il/ScythMeison1R.jpg


Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?

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## Robert6

> Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East. Instead they expanded West into Ukraine area. However the back migration from Near East might explain their linguistic similarities to Iranian varieties of Near East than to old IE Sanskrit.
> Can we find flow of specific Anatolian haplogroups into Ukraine area in fairly substantial level?


There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
*Eastern European Karaites have
6*J2,, 30%
5*E1b1b1,, 25%
4*G2a,, 20%
3*J1,, 15%
1*L2a,, 5%
1*R1b1a2,, 5%*

In 1971 Academician V.P. Alekseev based on craniological parameters study of population from Khazar town Sarkel (Lower Don) came to the conclusion that the Karaites are the product of mixing of Khazars with local (Crimean) tribes (such as the Sarmatians, Sarmato-Alanians, Alans, Goths and perhaps the Greeks).

Some pictures of Karaites people http://www.agatov.com/content/view/3731/58/
http://www.religion.in.ua/uploads/po...76483331_0.jpg
http://bike-crimea.com/blog/wp-conte...02/karaimi.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories...u/p1600875.jpg
http://www.agatov.com/images/stories...u/p1600817.jpg
http://pantikapei.ru/wp-content/uplo...8/karaimy4.jpg

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## Vedun

> Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
> Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?


occult nonsense. Those territories never belonged to any "Avar Khaganate".

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## Goga

> Interesting. I always thought Scythians were leftovers of Iranian tribes who didn't migrated South and East.


Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.

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## Robert6

> Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.


More possibly one of the first proto-Iranian cultures was the *Yaz culture(southwest Turkmenistan)* and not the BMAC(BMAC is very old).
According to linguists North Pontic Scythians had *west.Iranian substratum*, and east.Iranian superstrate.
And there is the inscription with *Luwian Hieroglyphs* about *Scythian King Partitava*(in *Saqqez Kurdestan*) is in a language that is very close to modern Ossetian. http://landofkarda.blogspot.gr/2010/...scription.html

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## Goga

You have got some point. Indeed, the original Scythians came most probably from Yaz. But wasn't Yaz actually proto-*East* Iranic, and not proto-Iranic in general? It's still uncertain to me whether proto-Iranic peoples lived around BMAC or more to the west of the Iranian Plateau. I believe that the proto-Iranic race was born when J2a1* (or even J2a*and G2a) blended with R1a, but that could happen everywhere between the western parts of the Iranian Plateau (Zagros Mountains) or the eastern parts (SouthCentral Asia). And the thing is that SouthCentral Asia is HEAVILY influenced, culturally, genetically and linguistically (ergativity, Sumerian vocabulary etc.), by folks from West Asia.....

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## John Doe

> There are some tested Karaites(Kipchak-Cuman speaking people, they recognize the Old testament, but they don't recognize the Torah) mostly from Crimea
> http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html
> *Eastern European Karaites have
> 6*J2,, 30%
> 5*E1b1b1,, 25%
> 4*G2a,, 20%
> 3*J1,, 15%
> 1*L2a,, 5%
> 1*R1b1a2,, 5%*
> ...



Not exactly, the Karaites accept the old Testament (the old Testament includes the Torah, the Torah is simply the first 5 books of the bible) but they don't accept the Talmud.

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## Vedun

"Maybe 'Amazones' were just wild/barbaric people without any respect for rules."

Amazone is a Greek transliteration for current Ukrainian, Russian word for *AМУЖЁНКA*, *ОМУЖЁНКA, ОМУЖЁНA; Amoženka; Omoženka, Omožena Ženščina*, Možata ženička. Where A transmuted into O, like in "Agni" into Agonj and into Ogonj, Ogenj. And from Agnistaha or Agnistha (अग्निष्ठ) into Ognjišče (fireplace). Greeks were renaming many words; like Trojan Vilusha into Ilios, Venetic Trojans into Enedae, Skoloti or Sokoli into Skolotoi (falcons), Truvid into Druids, Amozhena/Amozhenka into Amazones, etc 

Amazons were women who were forced into a self-preservation, when their men(husbands) were butchered by enemies; we know the story from Troy(The correct transliteration was Vilusha or Wheelusha; rounded (wheel) city). Other Trojan (amazone) women were enslaved, their men were all killed. 



They-women (ženke, žene) became "machist" (možate). When woman was married she also became "omožena" (part of man).

Amoženka - Sokolotka (Etruscan art)

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## Ostoja

Hello,

I see interesting discussion here about Sarmatian origin and DNA. I will try to add my knowledge in this subject although I can not present any final conclusions of my own since its to early for that. However, You might find this interesting.

Ostoja is old Polish CoA and it evolved from Sarmatian Tamga (Helmut Nickel, _Tamgas and Runes, Magic Numbers and Magic Symbols_ or Princke). and as You can see on the Avtar - there is also Sarmatian Dragon. Ostoja is old Battle Cry of group of knights, its older than 800 years but we dont know when it was in use first time and what it origin from. Ostoja mean mainstay and we believe that its about a place that people can seek protection or a place where people come together, where the Standard is situated. Oldest notes about members of the clan tell about Scibor that have been widely used by members of the Clan in Medieval times. Scibor (czcic bor) means _Honor Battle_ and oldest notes we found are from year 1174. This information could be of importance...Honor Battle...since I think there is somethiing similar in Sarmatian culture.

In order to investigate Clan origin, we run the Ostoja Clan DNA project on FTDNA - see below:

* google on *Ostoja Clan FTDNA* - and see results (i cant post link here since I need to write 10 posts before i can do that) 

In the beginning, we thought that families are blood related to each other since around year 1400 they lived in groups very close to each other. However, the DNA tell us something else. Many of the families are blood related to each other by changing their names after properties mainly between 1450 and 1550. So for example Blociszewski in Gaj started to use surname Gajewski or Biel in Kiedrzyn started to use Kiedrzynski. There are lot of such examples and in the end we have over 200 names that are linked to Ostoja. But from the begining, before they started to use names after their properties - they where a group of knights that in most where not blood related to each other (we think ab. 30-40 families). Interesting fact is that Blociszewski and Roguski have common ancestor that lived ab. 700 years ago and that Solecki have common ancestor with both of them ab. 1500 years ago. I doubt that this is coincidence. Interesting that as late as 1400 families had so strong contact with each other. Was the _Dragon_ heritage so strong that is survived many hundreds of years?

As You can see there is a strong group belonging to R1a-west european origin. From this group we have prominent member in Jakusz de Blociszewo (later Blociszewski) that was voivode (duke ) of Lviv year 1374 although Blociszewo is placed in Greater Poland around Poznan and Bydgoszcz. This informatkion is usefull in order to determine from which Sarmatian tribe this group origin. Very close to Blociszewo, we have property of Ilowiec and we thought that Ilowiecki family could be blood related with Blociszewski but as You can see, Ilowiecki hold haplgroup R1b and most probably (we are doing sub-tests) of German origin. Both families lived very close to each other in year 1400 which indicate strong connection between them. The allover picture is the same. Regardless blood connection, families stick together and if they moved to other area in Poland, they moved to area where other Ostoja lived.

The CoA you see is pretty close to earliest stamps we discovered. Later...the cross become a sword and the CoA lost the dragon on helmet - but original version is very clear. A cross between increscent and decrescent. We still dont know if the cross was added because of Christianity, it might refer to dynastic power, Christianity or Crusaders. But the most important is Sarmatian dragon! This lead us to a tribe that was called Royal Sarmatians and suppose to origin from Royal Scythians that was the noblemen and aristocracy...or dynasty.

You clearly see the DNA of this Sarmatian Clan and in case of Marchocki and Chrzastowski, we will do subtests since its seems that both families are of Italo-Celtic origin. More test are on the way and we will see better picture in time.

You also see the DNA of Rylski and Danielewicz (R1a-Z280-Z92), those families are long distant cousins - should be ab 1800-2000 years ago. Both families origin from Sarmatian tribe Alans. Rylski settled down in Poland but Danielewicz in Lithuania so yes - Alans moved also north. They moved north to Russia and settled down around Novgorod and Pskov. How do we know that? Because prince Boriatynski (DNA, see Russian Nobility DNA project on FTDNA) family and Danielewicz (both of Ostoja) are of Alan origin and moved in medieval times from Novgorod and Pskov to Lithuania and Belarus - its well documented. Same with prince Palecki (also Ostoja, here no DNA) family. Danielewicz seems to origin from boyar family as common ancestor with Pushkin family lived ab. 800-1000 years ago. And we can trace Pushkin family origin down to ab. 1200 - to Novgorod.

As we can see, Alans did move up to Lithuania and North West Russia. But how did they then join Ostoja Clan? Royal Sarmatians and Alans might be cousins but they Alans where not the _Dragon_ (Draco) like Royal Sarmatians. We believe that families used similar Tamgas to Ostoja and that they in this way joined the Clan. Only other option would be adoption year 1450 but there are no records that confirm such adoption. Most likely, its about Sarmatian Tamga - and most likely similar Ostoja. Or...did those Novgorod families also belong to Sarmatian _Dragons_? In Polish -very specific - heraldry, many CoA with 2 moons was called Ostoja with modificaton, we have many such modifications. So everything was in same basket (sic!). But we know of course that Ostoja with modification is NOT Ostoja. Important here is the procedure...so that is why we think its same with Tamga that looked similar to Ostoja. But what Tamga was that?

More research on Tamga and more DNA should in future tell much more. 

I hope that what I wrote is interesting and can add something of value to the discussion.

Best regards,
O.

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## LeBrok

@ Ostoja. Welcome to Eupedia.

Do we have Sarmatian Y DNA to extrapolate paternal lines for Ostoja descendents?

Supposedly Alan Y hg was mainly G2, nothing more precise though.



> *Genetics[edit]*In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 12 Alanic burials on the Don River, 6 samples turned out belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 samples belonging to mtDNA I. This is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2* either


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans


You mentioned some genetic relations, very distant cousins, going back 1,500. In this time scale every Pole should be related.

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## Ostoja

Hello Lebrok and thank You!

Well...Ostoja is clearly Sarmatian Tamga with Sarmatian Draco so naturally, we want to know the Y DNA of this Sarmatian Clan. The results so far are presented as mentioned on FTDNA, the Ostoja Clan DNA project. Based on the results, we try to match it with existing knowledge. What You see is composition of R1a (M458-L260) + R1b (italo-celtic+german) and I2a (M438) which lead us to conclusion that not only Sarmatians fight in the units with Draco standard. The Sarmatian part of Ostoja should then be R1a (458-L260) but we need more samples to do better conclusions.

Yes, You are right on Alan haplogroup being G2 but here, Western Alans will show haplogroup R1a. According to Ammianus M. that lived around year 350, Alans lived in Scythia and by the time they united with other people so they consisted of two groups that lived in different part of the Empire but both where called Alans. It means that those two groups have different YDNA.

Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280. What we see is that Sarmatian tribes have slightly different DNA although majority is of R1a. In this way we can separate Alans from other Sarmatian tribe that show M458-L260. But again, we need lot more samples to be more exact and also, DNA Technics move forward and we are able to sub-group the results in better way.

If I look at my own DNA (Z280-Z92), it match almost perfectly the rout Western Alans did down to Africa. And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate. You can see ab. 20 person with confirmed Z92 might be concidered. And Slavic origin might not be same as Sarmatian. And for 458-L260 its not even that, there are very few people in this sub-group.

Best regards,
Ostoja

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## arvistro

Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland? 
I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?

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## LeBrok

> Hi Ostoja, interesting story.
> Btw, do you have proportions of y-dna haplos of clan? And how do they differ if at all from general haplo proportions of Poland? 
> I read on wiki it was 60% of r1a, is not it close to Polish average?


There might be some truth in it, that some polish noblemen came from Sarmatians. Though, after 1,500 years looking for Sarmatian paternal line of Y dna in well mixed population, without Sarmatian source DNA, is an impossible task. As well it might be just a legend, carried away by romantic people, who imagined that they belong to something great from the past.

I never could understand why people cling to their grand x 50 father, who left only 2% of DNA in them, and very mutated after so many generations, who they never knew. As well could have been a psychopathic killer. But that is just me.

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## LeBrok

> .And no, going back 1500 years does not make every Pole related :) Its far from that - you need many thousands of years, not 1500. You see this in the R1a project on FTDNA and that Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history administrate. 
> 
> Best regards,
> Ostoja


1,500 years means roughly 60 generations. This number gives 576 quadrillion grand parents per person. One person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 grand grand..., etc. There were never as many people on this planet, so it means that people needed to share grandparents, especially in same geographical area. My hunch is confirmed by recent scientific discovery about sharing common ancestors.




> BERLIN (AP) — Europeans appear to be more closely related than previously thought.
> Scientists who compared DNA samples from people in different parts of the continent found that most had common ancestors living just 1,000 years ago.
> The results confirm decade-old mathematical models, but will nevertheless come as a surprise to Europeans accustomed to thinking of ancient nations composed of distinct ethnic groups like "Germans," ''Irish" or "Serbs."
> "What's remarkable about this is how closely everyone is related to each other," said Graham Coop of the University of California, Davis, who co-wrote the study published Tuesday in the journal PLoS Biology.
> Coop and his fellow author Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California used a database containing more than 2,250 genetic samples to look for shared DNA segments that would point to distant shared relatives.
> While the number of common genetic ancestors is greater the closer people are to each other, even individuals living 2,000 miles (3,220 kilometers) apart had identical sections of DNA that can be traced back roughly to the Middle Ages.
> The findings indicate that there was a steady flow of genetic material between countries as far apart as Turkey and Britain, or Poland and Portugal, even after the great population movements of the first millennium A.D. such as the Saxon and Viking invasions of Britain, and the westward drive of the Huns and Slavic peoples.
> The study did find subtle regional variations. For reasons still unclear, Italians and Spaniards appear to be less closely related than most Europeans to people elsewhere on the continent.
> "The analysis is pretty convincing. It comes partly from the enormous number of ancestors each one of us have," said Mark A. Jobling, a professor of genetics at the University of Leicester, England, who wasn't involved in the study.
> ...


http://news.yahoo.com/europeans-had-...210129852.html

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## Alan

> Actually, the original Scythians came from SouthCentral Asia (BMAC) and migrated into the steppes where they heavily mixed with the natives of those areas. Scythians (together with Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) were East Iranic folks, while other Iranic tribes, like the Medes and Persians were West Iranic folks.


The original Scythians came probably from Northeast of the Caspian. They were pushed out by the Massagatae and moved into Pontic Steppes by driving out the local Cimmerians into Western Asia. Among those Scythians who settled on the Pontic steppes was a tribal group who became known as the "Royal Scythians".* It is said by Heredotus that the Western Scythians crossed into the Pontic Steppes through Media and the Caucasus. This would explain why West Scythian has a strong West Iranic substratum.* And it would also explain the obsession of Scythians with Media and their several campaigns to conquer it.

Those Royal Scythians with their King Bartatua came back and attacked Media and settled there building up their county of Sagapeni in Eastern Kurdistan/Northwest Iran. His Son Madya became the new ruler of Media.

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## Alan

As I said in the past. It is very unlikely that the Iranoaryan groups belonged exclusively to one Haplogroup. Especially when this group was so widespred and modern descends of them have significant frequencies in allot of Haplogroups. The reason why some Iranoaryan groups are more dominated by one Haplogroup while other more diverse is most probably because of founder effect. Imagine IndoIranian groups spreading from their homeland in every direction. Through Bottleneck effect. Some groups might end up beeing dominant in only one or two Haplogroups while some other have the full package of yDNA diversity.

As example the region once settled by the Dahae has very high levels of Haplogroup R1b*, the same is the case for some regions of Western Iranian Groups. Than we have the Alans and their descends the Ossetians and Jasz from Hungary who are dominant in Haplogroup G2* but also have some R1b* and I*. The people of the former regions of Bactria, Sogdia, Massagatae and Saka(east Scythians) are dominant by Haplogroup R1a* (up to 50%) but have also significant frequency of other Haplogroups as J2a, R2*, Q1b, G*, L*, C* and some H-M69*. Regions of what was once Western Scythia/Cimmeria are dominant by Haplogroup such as R1a*, R1b*, I2a*, G2a and J*, N* and C*.
And when it comes to West Iranian Groups you have a whole varity of significant Haplogroups. In Northwest Iranians such as various subclades of R1a*, R1b*/R2a*, J2a/J1b, G*, I* T*, L2*, Q1b. And among Southwest Iranians the same just with less R1b and add some H-M69*.

If Haplogroups are as old as 30000 years, I can't think of any ethno-linguistic group beeing exclusively dominant in one Haplogroup. So no suprise to find out that some Sarmatian tribes such as the Alans and Jazyges were more dominant by Haplogroup G2a*, R1b*, while other like the Roxalani, Aorsi, Siraces probably by Haplogroup R1a* and J2a*.

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## Alan

> Alans are refered to be of Sarmatian-Scythian origin and Scythians show haplogroup R1a-Z280.


As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.

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## arvistro

I think if Ostoja clan has ~ same haplo % as modern Poland then there are two options:
a) Sarmats had same haplo % as modern Poland
b) Ostoja was a romantic banner for folk that came of random Polish nobles. 

There are similar Legends. Lithuanian and Russian Princes believed they came from brother of Caesar Augustus who arrived to Prussia :)

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## Ostoja

Lebrok,

Yeah, its like in six degree of separation :) But here I think study You presented have nothing to do with the Clans and I believe that it is based on too little and to old samples, I personally doubt those conclusions, for me its more like indication. If You look at the DNA of several Clans You will very seldom see any relation closer than 800 years between any of Clan members and anyone else in the database on FTDNA or ysearch.org. So clearly, the publication You presented does not apply on Clans - 1500 years is almost nothing. Why dont You check several projects on FTDNA to see that more clearly?

It have been stated that Sarmatian heritage of Polish nobility is romantic nonsense but past 2 years picture have changed and researchers now claim that it is partly true. What we do is correcting huge amount of errors in history books and DNA projects help us to make those corrections. Nobility by itself is completely of no interest. We just wish to come closer to the truth. Today - Im sorry to say that - most historians with phd and most professors in Poland are presenting crap. So basically, you need to read all this crap for ab. 20 years and just to come to the conclusion that You need to start over and start with translating sources. You can easily translate french vulgar Latin in different way. Researching Clans is interesting because those are more "closed" societies. We researched Awdaniec (Abdank) clan since scholars thought that this Clan might origin from Scandinavia. The DNA project of this Clan failed to confirm that. We also are waiting for the DNA of Piast dynasty - this is very interesting issue and the results might make revolution in the way to see what really happened 1000 years ago on Polish ground. Another interesting DNA project is of Bajor claiming that most of princely families from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine that clam Rurikid origin is of haplogroup N. Almost all researchers refer to the study of Bajor but again, this project failed to point on haplogroup N and we can only confirm 50% haplogroup N and 50% R1a so clearly we cant come to any conclusion jet.

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## Ostoja

Furtheremore, counting Clan population past 1000 years we can ruffly count on 40 families in Ostoja that developed slightly over 150 ancient lines and of them 60 are extinct so in Ostoja we are talking about max. 1000 members - that is only 25 times more Clan members in 1000 year or ab. 40 generations. Same should apply on other Clans.

As mensioned earlier, researching Clans give some value since they are more "closed societies" and in this way I think it is possible to verify DNA of Sarmatians. The mix You talk about Lebrok refer to mtDNA, not Y-DNA. Here we talk about ruffly 1 mutation in 100 years in specific markers. 

Arvistro - the DNA of different Clans differ. Some Clans show closer connection and some differ a lot. Difference between Ostoja and Adwaniec is significant. We believe that R1a in Adwaniec is mistake. I give you example. In the property of Rogusze in north Masovia there where 2 families sharing a village. Both families apply suraname *Roguski* around year 1500. One family was from the clan Ostoja and one of clan Adwaniec. In sources we see only Adwanbiec in Roguski family but DNA results showed not just R1a but also match Blociszewski family that belong to Ostoja. Common ancestor lived 700 years ago and it is specific markers that match and that give us confidence in the results. 700 years is pretty close match when talking about Clans. Without the DNA tests, it would be impossible to separate those families. We therefore think that the DNA of Clans will differ more the more samples we have.

And no, Ostoja is not any romantic banner of different noble, it would be waste of time to research fairy tells :) Every element in Ostoja CoA is Sarmatian. Only thing we still cant establish is if the Cross is of Christian origin or of Sarmatian.

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## Ostoja

Alan,

You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.

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## Ostoja

When looking at the DNA results of Ostoja clan members, some of them can not be considered in the research of Sarmatian origin. So far we have following:

4 persons showing M458-L260 (R1a)
3 persons showing I2a2
2 persons showing R-M269 (R1b)
1 person showing R-U106 (R1b)

This is composition of the Clan right now if we consider oldest lines and not adopted or where we believe DNA is not broken. The east part of the Clan is not considered right now. We have far to little DNA samples to make conclusions but we have indication that M458-L260 might be of Sarmatian tribe origin since families in this group are one of the leading in the Clan and well documented. The research lead us to Royal Sarmatians. Some scholars tell that Royal Sarmatians origin from Royal Scythians but other tell that they are minor Sarmatian tribe. No clue what is more correct. Only thing we know for sure is that Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and that they used Draco standard. The rest we have to research and I think that DNA project will in time give us the key we search.

Some information I present might be of interest for You since its based on very solid sources. Also, Your input and knowledge is interesting for me. Soon I will be able to add links so it will be easier for me to present interesting sources.

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## arvistro

When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos:) to avoid circle logic.

M458 as Sarmats, now that is interesting idea. It is different enough and at common level with Z280 and their Germanic brother (forgot name). 

Mainstream opinion currently links m458 and i2 to Slavic expansions. Sarmats were supposed to be Iranic folk. Slavs have some Iranic influences - "Bog", but is it enough to believe m458 was Sarmatian marker before 500? Scyths were z93, could Sarmats be m458? I havent read much on that subj, so sorry if speak non-sense. Hope someone corrects me.

Btw, from antique authors is it known which archeo cultures were in those places East of Vistula where they find Sarmats?

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## Robert6

> As far as I know most tested Scythian remains were z93. Of course it is likely that they had some Z280 among their lines too.


There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet

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## Alan

> There is no paleo-Dna from Scythians yet


There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture

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## Alan

> Alan,
> 
> You are right on Z93 but we still have to little samples to determine. Also, we talk about 2 different tribes that where called Alans and there could be more than 2 tribes. I still cant proof my Alan origin but Im pretty sure that we will soon be able to establish that since every year the DNA science move on quickly forward. For the moment I can just tell that Alan route they make to Africa match perfectly my own DNA. Problem we face is that any relation that is older than 1500 years is not reliable. More than 15 (of 67) markers difference tell relation but it can be 1600 years or 3000 years. We can therefore consider max 15 markers difference in Y-67 test to be able to tell more exact relation between families.


You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.

As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.

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## Robert6

> There is Scythian DNA from pazyryk culture


Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay

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## Alan

> Yes only mtdna is tested it is N1a(mtdna N1a is so called Neolithic European signature)
> Which mtdna N1a is abcent in Bronze age Altay


As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*. 

Also Andronovo, which is seen as Scythian culture was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/...age-altai.html

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## LeBrok

> You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.
> 
> As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. *Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them*.


 I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.

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## Robert6

> As far as I know also yDNA is tested from Bronze Age Altais in West Mongolia, which was inhabited by both Scythian and Mongol people. As seen from DNA some were Mongolian Q1a* and some were Scythian R1a*. 
> 
> Also Andronovo culture connected to Scythians was dominant in Haplogroup R1a*
> http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/06/...age-altai.html


The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.

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## Alan

> The Scythian culture from 8 century BC have Iron Akinakes(Sword) Bronze age Altayans do not have it.
> When the Scythians were in Iron Age, in Altay were Bronze age.
> The only culture in the east close to the Scythians is Pazyryk culture, which culture is "Scythian type" or "from Scythian cycle" culture and not exactly Scythian.
> The Andronovo is not a one culture, it is a Horizon of many cultures.
> The western Andronovo have 100% Western mtdna,
> and eastern Andronovo have 40-50% of eastern mtdna.


Pzayrk is clearly identified as Scythian. proven by typical West Eurasian y as well mtDNA which Mongols lack (HV1, HV2 and N1a) though more and more admixed with some of the native mongols. Bronze Age Altai samples are from West Mongolia, which just a few centuries later became part of the pazyrk culture.

Andronovo is definitely one culture or to be more exact, a horizont of few related cultures.

I have heard that there was one Haplogroup C* additional to R1a in Andronovo. It was thought to be East Eurasian but today we know C* is much more than just East or West Eurasian. At the beginning Andronovo was almost completely West Eurasian but with time it became more mixed in the East with East Eurasian mtDNA. The only thing this proofs is that Andronovo with time absorbed some neighboring DNA.




> Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one the haplogroup C-M130 (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.
> 90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.[18]
> A 2004 study also established that, during the Bronze/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the thirteenth to seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.[19]


If we agree that C-M130 is just Eurasian . Than we come to only one East Eurasian mtDNA. That is on the usual range of other Indo_Iranian groups.

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## Ostoja

> When we calculate % for all project samples we see almost perfect mini-modern Poland but with boosted R1b.
> So my first idea was that banner to Poland was taken by r1b former Roman mercenaries who served their time in that particular unit. And further local Poles joined the game.
> But if some are truer Ostojas than others, I hope others are fake because of smth else and not of "wrong" haplos:) to avoid circle logic.


Everything is possible, also roman mercenaries with haplo R1a as we know that Sarmatian joined roman legions. See Roxolani, Yazygz and the cataphracts. 

There is no fake in the Ostoja DNA projet but we have doubts about some of memebrs like the one with N1c - its possible that the DNA line is broken here. In other cases, we know that some of people tested origin from families that where co opted to the Clan in medieval times so I dont include them in this research. I therefore listed 10 results that we are very sure about and where the line is not broken. We will soon have more samples to examine. I think that m458 is indication and if we will see more of it in future tests, we could maybe establish something in the future.

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## Robert6

*Alan* 
The Pazyryk people are untested for Y-dna
Pazyryk culture is a mix of Locals and plus Iranian influence(from N.Iran-Baktria) possibly from Massagetae or other Iranian tribe.


The central Siberia (Krasnoyarskiy Kray) is the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont, and only the most eastern part of Andronovo horizont is tested. In Andronovo horizont they are all Anthropologically different in the west they were mostly Dolichocephalic in the east they were mostly Mesocephalic and Brachycephalic.

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## Ostoja

> I think it is true in general sense, same as some German, Lithuanian, Prussian, Russian, Ukrainian, Tatar ancestry. However I'm very sceptical about connecting "clans" to certain ethnicities from 1,500 years ago, in lack of slightest autosomal or uniparental DNA of said ethnicity. Nothing more than a legend and Sarmatians' symbols some polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200. That's 800 years after last records of Sarmatians. That's a very long time for things to get very muddy. Not mentioning another 800 years since.


It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes. I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it. What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject. You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt.

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## LeBrok

> It is necessary to be sceptical but we are on the way to determine DNA of some of Sarmatian tribes. Few years ago, Srmatian symbols liked to Polish Clans where considered as a legend or romantic stories but not now. It is now common knowledge that some Clans (part of it) origin from Saramtian tribes.


 With all due respect, your definition of Common Knowledge must be way different than the common definition suggests.




> I dont think that we have any good publication about this jet but I know that people that research this subject are sure about it.


 How can it be a common knowledge without even one good publication about this?






> What I write is not my opinion but opinion of historians that do the research. Like opinion of Lukasz Lapinski, phd in Polish history and leading authorities in reading the DNA test with haplogroup R1a. Claiming that its nothing more than legend is Your subjective input and against all common knowledge in subject.


 Just present Sarmatian DNA and you have the case. Right now what you have are common polish uniparental DNA lines in your clan.




> You write that Polish nobles implemented on their emblems around year 1,200 - we have CoA that is identical with Ostoja from year 980 of prince Iziaslaw. Like in oldest versions of Ostoja...the cross link the moons and also the moons are linked in middle part of the CoA. We can see almost exact version of this CoA in the seal of duke Jan z Jani of Ostoja from around 1450. Coincidence? We dont know. We can not tell that people did not use symbols between year 400 and 1200. We know about such symbols that we consider being proto-CoA from year 800 and earlier. We also know that Ostoja is Samatian Tamga and that the dragon in Ostoja is Sarmatian Draco. Our research lead us to Royal Sarmatian but here we still are not completely sure since we dont have proof that is enough to make statement beyond any doubt.


 All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans? We know they are not. Same could have happen with adaptation of Sarmatian dragon. Dragon was a symbol of powerful Sarmatians, so why not adopt it?

Having said that, there is still possibility that some polish clans came from Sarmatian genetic lines. However after so many generation you won't find much of genetic connection to the founders. With more members you might have found something statistically significant, but not with 10 members.

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## Ostoja

I write what i hear from people that are researching Sarmatian origin. I think its to early for publication but I know that one is on the way.

Yes, I will soon try to present some more interesting information and if its possible also add DNA to it. Sarmatian dragon was adopted by Bosporan Kingdom and by Roman legions so of course, it could be adopted. However, as earlier mentioned - Ostoja evolved from Sarmatian Tamga. In this case, Sarmatians used Sarmatian dragon - its simple.

I dont understand why I can not find genetic connection with Sarmatian tribes? If You talk about mtDNA yes, its to much mixed but when talking about Y-DNA You can in simple way determine who You are blood related to up to 1500 years back in time in more exact way. I know what families I have common ancestor with 1400-1500 years ago. More back in time we are not sure about correct century, thats all. But it does not mean that we can not go 2000 back in time and predict. If You read specific markers in test that consist of at least 67 markers, it is sometimes possible to make correct prediction and DNA science is moving very quickly forward. With Big-Y test we will soon be able to do new subgroups. 

Yes, its correct that 10 tests are far to little, thats why I write about indications but its of course to little to draw any conclusions. We will have more interesting DNA results incoming soon to add to what we have. But Ostoja is not the only DNA project, there are several other and much bigger so this will also help Ostoja DNA project. The DNA test show us also that in some cases, two families with common ancestor that for example lived 1200 years back in time entered two different Clans. In that way, we have a lot more than 10 samples to investigate.

If we have DNA samples of for ex. Roxolani and Yazyges, we will soon be able perfectly match it with people that have same DNA subgroup. We just need to get those sub-groups ready, its just question of time and we will know for sure.

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## Alan

> All of this doesn't mean much. Germany and Russia have Roman eagle as their symbols, but are they genetically Romans? 
> .


Hmm I would not be sure about that. the Eagle is one of the most symbolic animals among Iranic speaking tribes and I have heard rumors that the Eagle was brought to Germanic people by contact with Sarmatians.

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## Ostoja

> You probably mean different Sarmatian tribes.
> 
> As I said Alans were probably dominant by G2a* mostly but with other less significant lineages as I*, R1b and R1a. But there are also other Sarmatian groups like Aorsi and Roxalani. Maybe Poles have some ancestry from them.


Seems that G2 is dominant but as You said, there are also less significant lineages. We have indications that Iazyges could have haplo I2a2a (M223) dinaric. Dont know the Roxolani or Aorsi DNA. It seems that the DNA of different Sarmatian tribes differ. We should in time know more when more Big-Y tests are done. There are already new subclades. Interesting to see if some Sarmatian tribes really origin from Scythians, then we should have dominating haplo R1a.

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## Goga

Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some *East* Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.

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## Ostoja

> Before they were assimilated completely by the Europeans, some *East* Iranic tribes originally from the SouthCentral Asia were already heavily mixed with the native East Europeans. And like I said, later on they were completely blended in with the natives of Europe. Like they (some East Iranic tribes) did with Turco-Mogoloid folks in Central Asia.


True, that is why its interesting to investigate Clans, some of them could preserve the original DNA as they where ruling Class and could be less mixed with others. Also, its more likely that we find unbroken DNA line.

Not sure about Iranian heritage though, I cant see any evidence of that excet sources that claim that Scythians and Sarmatian speak Iranian language. Haplogroup R1a is one of the dominating in Iran. This article is very well sourced and is FA art so we could presume that there is no rubbish there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

In point 6 - genetics, there are interesting information. Read about R1a-M198. Also, I see nothing about haplo I2a2 and R-I223 suppose to be of the Iazyges. So Alans and Iazyges dont mach - the DNA of Sythians does since its Z93. But it is also stated that this tribe did not origin from Iran.

It could also be of interest to examine Aorsi tribe which was the biggest Sarmatian tribe. Could this tribe show Z93 as Scythians? Not sure about that. According to several historians, Antes people origin from Aorsi and claim that Aorsi was spelled Antsai, later Antae and finally Halans, Polans. The tribes of Aorsi, Royal Samratians and Sirace - all of them used Tamga signs and some of those tamgas is believed to have later transformed to Polish CoA. Brajaczewski could prove that Antes in greek is Polans in slavic language. There is still a world "polanka" that refer to woman hero although in modern Polish its now "bohater" that evolved from turkish "bagadyr".

The Ostoja CoA clearly evolved from Sarmatian Tamga and the dragon is also Sarmatian dragon. So in that way, further reaserch on the DNA of Ostoja Clan might give us some more interesting indications in the future regarding the DNA of Sarmatian tribe that is called Royal Sarmatians. Royal Sarmatians is relatively little Sarmatian tribe but of many reasons very interesting to investigate.

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## arvistro

Antsai, Antai - now that is lovely for Lithuanian plural grammar :)
In modern Slavic it would be spelled something like Vutj (modern city Lodz), after all the de-nasalisations and prothesys thingy believed in-between proto-Balto-Slavic and Slavic. At least that is my take on reading through developments on Common Slavic from wiki. Have not consulted with pro-linguist there, also it is only true if we believe proto-Balto-Slavic/early proto-Slavic was spoken around at times of Anti (or at least that de-nasalisation happened late, which actually did happen late, since in Kiev Rus times, there was a ruler attested as Swentoslav by Greeks, which only in later Slavic development became Svjatoslav). en-ya change, similarly an-o-u.

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## Kardu

New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and AlansSarmat.jpg

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## Alan

> New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and AlansSarmat.jpg


 

There we have it. Finally a prove, typical Iranic y and mtDNA. I knew it and said it, impossible that Iranic groups were dominated by just one Haplogroup. So R1a, J1, J2 and G found there. And I am pretty sure with more sampling, R1b, I and some L,T and R2 will also appear.

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## Goga

> New Paleo-Dna results of Sarmats and AlansSarmat.jpg


Nice! This is a prove for me that Iranic folks evolved from Mitanni, Kassites and other ancient proto-Iranics related to the Sumerians. One part went straight to Northern Caucasus and became known as Sarmatians. Second part went to BMAC first and became known as Eastern Iranic tribes. Later on some of those Eastern Iranic tribes (Parthians, Sogdians, Bactrians, Saka, Scythians) migrated out of BMAC into the Steppes.

But the URHEIMAT of the Iranic people is eventually Northwest Iranian Plateau (Zagros/Kurdistan).

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## Goga

Iranid People (Aryans) who stayed in their own homeland (URHEIMAT) became known as the Medes (Umman Manda). The Medes remained the purest (*Iranoid*) of all Iranic tribes, because they didn't mixed much with *Mongoloid* & *Europoid* folks in the Steppes. Of all modern populations Kurds are the closest people to the ancient Iranid folks. Kurds are mostly descendants of the mighty Medes. Like Kurds, the Medes were NorthWest Iranid folks. Also, Kurdish language is the closest language to the ancient Iranic (language of the ancient Iranid people). It has still that ancient Iranic ergativity construction, most archaic ...

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## F117stealth

> Another interesting DNA project is of Bajor claiming that most of princely families from Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine that clam Rurikid origin is of haplogroup N. Almost all researchers refer to the study of Bajor but again, this project failed to point on haplogroup N and we can only confirm 50% haplogroup N and 50% R1a so clearly we cant come to any conclusion jet.


So much information has been gained since your post and now I guess nobody from genetic world would doubt about N haplogroup origin of Rurikids.

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## Goga

> There we have it. Finally a prove, typical Iranic y and mtDNA. I knew it and said it, impossible that Iranic groups were dominated by just one Haplogroup. So R1a, J1, J2 and G found there. And I am pretty sure with more sampling, R1b, I and some L,T and R2 will also appear.





> Iranid People (Aryans) who stayed in their own homeland (URHEIMAT) became known as the Medes (Umman Manda). The Medes remained the purest (*Iranoid*) of all Iranic tribes, because they didn't mixed much with *Mongoloid* & *Europoid* folks in the Steppes. Of all modern populations Kurds are the closest people to the ancient Iranid folks. Kurds are mostly descendants of the mighty Medes. Like Kurds, the Medes were NorthWest Iranid folks. Also, Kurdish language is the closest language to the ancient Iranic (language of the ancient Iranid people). It has still that ancient Iranic ergativity construction, most archaic ...


Do they have auDNA of those J1 of those Sarmatians? I guess they would have lot's of the Steppes ancestry too, since they have been found in the Steppes, where I suppose they're heavily mixed with the locals. But hey would still have some of their original Iranid/Aryan DNA preserved I guess...


Why is nobody talking about those J1 Sarmatians anymore???

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## XipeTotek

i think scythians are ancestors of the turkic peoples. scythians mainly hablogroup must be r1a. r1a is first turkic peoples hablogroup and today have most r1a hablogroups with the central asian turkic peoples.(higher than slav) turks are mixed with mongoloid/amerindians/caucasoid everybody knows it. and first turkic ancesters have more white and caucasoid later they are more relationship with mongoloid and amerindian peoples. and huns/turks going be created. but i cant understand why turkic language different from indo-european languages.

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## LeBrok

> i think scythians are ancestors of the turkic peoples. scythians mainly hablogroup must be r1a. r1a is first turkic peoples hablogroup and today have most r1a hablogroups with the central asian turkic peoples.(higher than slav) turks are mixed with mongoloid/amerindians/caucasoid everybody knows it. and first turkic ancesters have more white and caucasoid later they are more relationship with mongoloid and amerindian peoples. and huns/turks going be created. but i cant understand why turkic language different from indo-european languages.


We have DNA of Scythians and they don't look like Turks/Mongolians steppe nomads, which came to Turkey/Anatolia.

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## XipeTotek

first turkic peoples come from amerindian Q hablogroup. later we mixed with R1a scythians and mongolian C hablogroup peoples.and today mostly R1a hablogroup peoples are turkic. look at altaians and kyrgyz peoples. and slav peoples have r1a too bot not so much like turkic people.turkic and slavic people have same ancestors come from scythians. but turkic people firstly main group are amerindians. and we get languages from them. and slavic peoples get language from scythians.scythians people not only 1 group they are have so many ethnich and languages. i think scythians are not only about slavic or iranians or turkics. they are ancestors of all central asian origin peoples. like a hunnic empire.

if you read about scandinavian viking mythologies. you can see odin/woden come from tyrkland with asian peoples. they are scythians.

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## howyesno

Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts.... 
myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia




> It journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage peoples, but nowhere could it be subdued by any people, however barbarous. Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today.


http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf

Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in *Albania* we find tribe name *Chelidones* (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg, 
in Spain we find tribal name *Caladuni* (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name _Caledones_ or *Caledonii*; Greek: Καληδώνες, _Kalēdōnes_) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: *Albannaich* while Scotland is Alba.

thus we have claims of Declaration of Arborath supported by tribal names Chelidones-Caladuni- Caledonii and Albania -Albannaich link 
Scotish people that are proud to origin from Greater Scythia (extension of Scythia) are R1b so Scythians are probably also R1b

Scythians attacked Cimmerians in 8th century BC causing them to move from area north of Black sea to west becomming spread in whole east Europe.. Cimmerians were in my opinion I2a Din..they merged with R1a Thracians giving Thraco-Cimmerians with archeological findoings of their culture being spead all the way to Denmark and north Italy..this spread far away from Thrace means that name Thracian in wider sense included Pannonians and Veneti..

Sarmatians subjugated Scythians... Sarmatians were in my opinion G2a...reason to claim this is that Osetians are thought to be direct offspring of Alani the main Sarmatian tribe and they are speaking iranic language and are G2a.. Being iranian some Sarmatian tribes might have been R1a but not European clades like M458 and M558..

Slavic people and language come mainly from Veneti as Jordanes clearly stated it saying that Antes and Slavi are two biggest tribes left over from numerous race of Veneti... only part of Slavic people used Slavi as self name..like today only Slovaks and Slovenians do...they were Veneti..their halpogroups are R1a and they have I2a din admixture of Cimmerians...
Thracians (and related Dacians) were in my opinion very similar to Veneti in both genetics, language and culture.. so they were easily assimilated by Slavic people in 6th century ...

some Veneti/Pannonian tribes lived on Balkan north of Illyrians long time before Slavic arrival in 6th century.. Pannonians were in my opinion also among numerous Veneti race.. and in wider sense so were Dacians and Thracians..
Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs and among them Serbs, white Croats and Carantanians (Slovene) living around Danube (In nowadays Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary) prior to Vlachs (roman empire) invasion...after which they moved to Vistula river in Poland ...so south Slavs in 6th century move back to their previous settlement place....

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## XipeTotek

> Many Europeans in Central and Northeast Europe claim their ancestry. But those people were Euroasian and not entirely European and they spoke Iranic (Aryan) languages. But people in Europe don't speak Aryan languages.
> I know nothing about these peoples, but somehow they got my attention and I got interested in these people, because many folks link them to the ancient West Asian Aryan Medes (Mitanni).
> I'm a West ASIAN Kurd and Kurds in general claim their ancestry to the West ASIAN Iranic Medes. In Kurdistan there're many archaeological traces left of these Aryan folks and of their Zoroastrian and other Aryan religions. So I truly believe that Aryan ancestors of the Kurds were West Asian too.
> If it is true that Scythians/Sarmatians were related to the Medes, then it's possible that these Scythians/Sarmatians were and admixture of North EUROPEAN and West ASIAN DNA, it is also possble that these folks had mostly West Asian DNA. Because I believe that the proto-Aryans came from West Asian/South Caucasus.
> So I think that these Scythians/Sarmatians that live in North Caucasus were: 
> mostly R1a, I2a, J2a. With some Caucasian G2a, R1b, R2a, J1 & T and East European Q & N elements, but not so much.
> What are your thoughts about these folks?


 brothers scythians from turkic land of central asia. we can clearly see they life style come from common ancestor also genetic(r1a have most on the altai turks on the world, and i think they come from scythians.) i think they are tribe of the central asian turkic/hunnic/mongol/east and west iranian peoples. and i dont think they speak one common language. this area make always tribal federation empire like hunnic. so why today some peoples say clearly they are iranic or europeans say we are scythians and turks not so absurd. finally i think they are come from mostly r1a and ancestor of turks sogdian and east iranian.
scythians are ancestor of west iranian and turkic common peoples. and i think they dont have a common one language.

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## PabijanBrzeski

I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.

Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.

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## Polska

That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.

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## Wonomyro

> Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.


That is very intersting. Could you pls. give us some links.

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## hrvat22

> I believe that the Scythian/Indo Iranic peoples did contribute to certain Slavic populations. Some Slavic words, like Bog(God) are said to be loanwords from Iranian languages. There is also high levels of similarity between Slavic/Baltic languages and Sanskrit, which is an Indo European tongue.
> 
> Polish nobility always claimed descent from the Sarmatians. Recent studies have shown that Polish coats of arms were different than western heraldry, and bears imagery and cult symbols found among Scythian/Alanic peoples.


For now we do not have migration of R1a peoples from Iran, India or that direction to Europe except Scythian R1a-Z93 but they come later.




> The *history of the Slavic languages stretches over 3,000 years, from the point at which the ancestral Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up (c. 1500 BC) into the modern-day Slavic languages which are today natively spoken in Eastern, Central and Southeastern Europe as well as parts of North Asia and Central Asia.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...avic_languages





> Vedic Sanskrit and tracing its linguistic ancestry back to Proto-Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

Migration of R1a peoples.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

This for now means that Indo-European language could only come from the Russian steppes to India, Iran and that area. This is if we look at Slavic language and its similarity to Sanskrit.




> For nearly 2,000 years, Sanskrit was the language of a cultural order that exerted influence across South Asia, Inner Asia, Southeast Asia,


As far as I can see, migration of R1b people from that direction exist but they come to Europe before Sanskrit being mentioned and Slavs were probably speaking Slavic at that time. So it's my opinion that Sanskrit comes from the Russian steppes to India and that area.
Which would mean that Slavic language is older than Sanskrit and that same language is mix between old Slavic language and languages in that area.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration-map.jpg


Indo-European migration is also seen here, everything goes from *Yamnaya culture*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I...migrations.gif




> The *Yamna people or Yamnaya culture(traditionally known as the Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture) was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Ageculture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

*3300–2600 BC and Yamnaya culture* is time before Sanskrit is mentioned and probably in that area of Yamnaya culture they speaks some old archaic Slavic language. In migration map of haplogroup R1a it can be seen that Indo-Aryans come to India and that area 1700 BC with mutation L657 and probably that tribe brings Slavic words to Sanskirt.


As far as the influence of Scythians is concerned, I think that they brought some old Slavic word to Europe which some Slavs had previously brought to India, Iran and Sanskirt.






> The Scythians first appeared in the historical record in the 8th century BC.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

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## Sile

> Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts.... 
> myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia
> 
> 
> http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf
> 
> Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in *Albania* we find tribe name *Chelidones* (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg, 
> in Spain we find tribal name *Caladuni* (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name _Caledones_ or *Caledonii*; Greek: Καληδώνες, _Kalēdōnes_) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: *Albannaich* while Scotland is Alba.
> 
> ...


*(Postquam vero Theodosius amator pacis generisque Gothorum rebus excessit humanis coeperuntque eius filii utramque rem publicam luxuriose viventes adnihilare auxiliariisque suis, id est Gothis, consueta dona subtrahere, mox Gothis fastidium eorum increvit, verentesque, ne longa pace eorum resolveretur fortitudo, ordinato super se rege Halarico, cui erat post Amalos secunda nobilitas Balthorumque ex genere origo mirifica, qui dudum ob audacia virtutis Baltha, id est audax, nomen inter suos acceperat. Mox ergo antefatus Halaricus creatus est rex, cum suis deliberans suasit eos suo labore quaerere regna quam alienis per otium subiacere, et sumpto exercitu per Pannonias Stilicone et Aureliano consulibus et per Sirmium dextroque latere quasi viris vacuam intravit Italiam nulloque penitus obsistente ad pontem applicavit Candidiani, qui tertio miliario ab urbe aberat regia Ravennate. Quae urbs inter paludes et pelago interque Padi fluenta unius tantum patet accessu, cuius dudum possessores, ut tradunt maiores, ainetoi,* id est laudabiles, dicebantur.)


Thus, Ravenna is described in Getica as founded by a people called Ainetoi – the name of those people, it is said, meant the “brave ones”. Of course, Ravenna is also very close to Venezia .


So, in the simplest of terms it would seem that the Goths’ rampage resulted in the conquest of the Veneti on the Baltic and, possibly drove, at least some of them, the newly anointed “Antes” and “Slavs” south. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that, in subsequent passages about the Goths and in the works of Procopius, the Veneti are no longer discussed (except perhaps indirectly via the name of Vinitharius). Instead, the focus is on the Byzantine borders (not northern Scythia) and, consequently, on the Antes and the Slavs – not the Veneti.

But what about the Sporoi? That name seems to suggest a “multitude” or “largeness” as per modern Slavic language. It should not take a Mensa member to note that Jordanes observes on more than one occasion (on two in fact!) that the Veneti were a “populous race” (Getica 5) that was “strong in numbers” (Getica 23). This would seem to connect the Sporoi with the Veneti.[3] Further, something that has not been noted is the similarity of the name s-Poroi to the word Poruse or, Prussians. The “s” or “z” in most Slavic languages means “from”. The Prussians were known to the Roman cartographers (see Ptolemy) as either being part of or living next to the Veneti.*

The Baltic Veneti/Venedi became the Warmians of Old Prussia eventually to be eliminated in the 13th century by the teutons..............they have nothing to do with Pannonians

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## Dibran

> Scythians were in my opinion R1b and closely related to Celts.... 
> myth of origin of Scotish people written down in Declaration of Arbroath says they come from Greater Scythia
> 
> 
> http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/...onArbroath.pdf
> 
> Greater Scythia is parts of Balkan.. there in *Albania* we find tribe name *Chelidones* (Greek Χελιδόνες) see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...English%29.svg, 
> in Spain we find tribal name *Caladuni* (next to Seurbi and Helleni see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Peninsula.png) and in Scotland we find tribal name _Caledones_ or *Caledonii*; Greek: Καληδώνες, _Kalēdōnes_) and alternative name for Scotish people is Scottish Gaelic: *Albannaich* while Scotland is Alba.
> 
> ...


Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.

I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din. 

Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed. 

The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. 

I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae. 

Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians. 

Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs. 

Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars. 

They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them. 

They already had adopted Slavic as a lingua Franca before entering the Balkans, so it’s not out of reason that at the collapse of their power structure they largely absorbed into Slavic ethnos. Z280/I2a1b-Din are the strongest and most characteristic of the Slavic migration. 

They may well be connected to Getae or in small part to late Iron Age Dacians given over lap of modern Slavic and Baltic territories.

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## Dibran

> That’s very interesting. My only very close match is a prominent member of the Lubomirski noble family from Poland. We’re J2b2 L283, specifically PH1602. I’m wondering if that could have come from Sarmatia.


While your clade is not common in Albanians J2b2 L283 is. Perhaps an assimilated Illyrian that went with the Roman auxiliary to Central Europe. Don’t see how it’s Sarmatian. Even though we don’t have their remains they were similar to Scythian and those remains were mostly R1a-Z93, J1, G and N for east Scythian

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## Sile

> Opinions don’t matter in the face of facts. Scythian remains this far have been R1a-Z93, J1, G, N.
> I2a1b-Din in south Slavs is extremely young and remains discovered were in a medieval Slav. Nothing to do wit Cimmerians which were probably connected to I2 found in Kavkaz that is different from I2a1b Din. 
> Sarmatians were the result of mixing between scythians and other peoples. Whilst G2a is almost a definite, we can’t be sure what other lines they possessed. 
> The only ancient Thracian remains discovered so far are R-a-Z93 and I2a2a(Balkanic) which was found in Pomaks and Greeks. The Thracian R1a has not been discovered in living peoples. They did not have I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. 
> I am not privy to any ancient remains discovered if Dacians but it’s not impossible to assume they may have had I2a1b being shifted further north among other lines like Z280 they would have surely existed in their northern kin the Getae. 
> Illyrian remains were already discovered in Bronze Age Dalmatia and they were J2b2 L283. Found predominantly in Albanians but also in some Southern Slavs as well. Including Vlachs. Older lineages like V13 and R1b were also discovered and likely participated in the ethnogenesis of both Illyrians and Dardanians. 
> Additionally M458 is yet to have any ancient DNA discovered from 500AD or earlier. We can’t say for certain who it moved with based on modern distribution alone. However, M458 is rather uncommon outside of Germans, Poles. In the Balkans it’s mainly common in Bulgarians and Romanians. Even Greeks have more of it compared to other South Slavs. 
> Given that M458 reaches upwards of 22 percent in Turkic tribes like Nogays and Kipchaks and Kavkaz in the north and south such as Circassians, it’s possible it moved with Pannonian Avars and Volga Bulgars. 
> They have more M458 than the entire Balkans combined. Only in Bulgaria does it reach 10 percent. Given the geographical sphere of Pannonian Avars and Volgar Bulgars in Poland and Bulgaria, it makes sense that some clades of M458 were carried by them. 
> ...


thracian samples
Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis.....*.belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b
*
Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis.....*.belonged to R1b-Z2103.*
Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......*belonged to J2-Z7402*

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## Guachelin

I haven't post in a few years. I was under impression, due to suggestions from other members of this forum, that my YDNA was Sarmatian, because it is R-Z93, since then I've tested Big Y at FTDNA and I am R-Z93>YP5585>YP5578>BY30053>Y28816>YP5905>YP27595.

Let's disregard all after YP5578, as I know from research and YFULL when and even who was the original "bearer of that SNP.

I want to concentrate on YP5585 and YP5578.

YP5578 is unique. It virtually stands alone as to origin and time of appearance, being in the north of England (Northumbria at the time) and about the time of the returning crusaders. It also appears at the time when English castles were being rebuilt from mud, wattle and timber affairs on motte and baileys to stone castles and English steel was upgraded from the crude steel the crusaders used to the high quality of Damascus steel. And the area in which the DNA was originally centered is also a rich iron ore bearing area called Cleveland (Clifflands) in Yorkshire.

So far there are 20 men, most who have the same surname or a variation, who have tested YP5578, all have an ancestral origin in the north of England (Dane and Angle Northumbria, modern Yorkshire).

Now the kicker. There is also an Indian (subcontinent) whose DNA is YP5585. We know that the Scythians swept into the Indus Valley, the so called Aryan Invasion, and left their DNA in what is now the Brahim class, and of course converts to Islam especially in Pakistan, but I do not have an inkling as to their subclades, and subclades are important. R-Z93 is too broad, covers too much territory, too many peoples.

I have arrived at a tentative conclusion that my first English ancestor was actually a Christian Dhimmi, perhaps an expert in forging Damascus steel (the late 13th, 14th and 15th century spelling of the name was Ferror, a ferror is a maker of iron, as opposed to a smith who works iron.

He was a descendant of an Indian, who was taken captive during the Arab conquest of the Indus Valley in the 8th Century, he survived the trek over the mountains named for them, Hindu Slaughter or Hindu Kush, and was sold in a slave market, perhaps in Damascus.

As a kufr, unbeliever or infidel, and not a Peoples of the Book (Christian or Jew) he would have been given a choice to say the Shahada or die, however he was also a valuable commodity and one does not waste their property or investment, so Hindu slaves, during the reign of the Umayyad caliphate which considered Islam to be an Arab only religion, allowed or persuaded their Hindu and pagan slaves to Christianity. Conversion to Judaism required instruction and cooperation of Rabbi's, not forthcoming. Christianity required only baptism by a priest.

Life as a Christian under Islam meant living as a second class citizen and paying a poll tax (jizzyah).

Thus when the Crusaders appeared and marveled at the technology and techniques of the old Greco Persian empire as inherited by the Arabs, they were like kids in a candy shop. Enamored of their masons and forgers of steel, they wasted little time in convincing these dhimmi's to return with them to England, and the skilled dhimmi's, saw relief from paying jizzyah and living as second class citizen and eagerly boarded crusader ships for transport to Europe and England.

The transformation of Europe and England and it's climb out of the dark ages actually started with the Crusades, when the encountered the philosophy, science, technology and techniques of the old Greco Roman Persian empire as brought together and synthesized by the Arabs.

The Arabs who themselves were amazed and enthralled by the philosophy, technology, skill, medicine of the Greeks, Romans and Persians who they conquered and very much like the Christians later, were like kids in a candy shop, absorbing everything new that they found, and taking it one step further by amalgamating all, improving and enhancing such as the mathematics of al Jabr which bears his name today in albebra.

Too bad it has gone backwards in the modern era, but the same retrograde, conservative tendency is apparent in Christianity and Judaism as so called fundamentalism or fear or discomfort with modernity and progress is on the uptick. But I wander afield as I always do.

Point is that a "son" of R-Z93 apparently landed in England between 1000 and 800 ybp, by the circuitous route of India and Damascus. At least that is the idea for now.

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## Dibran

> thracian samples
> Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations. An upper wisdom tooth from an adult male was used for DNA analysis.....*.belonged to haplogroup E1b1b1a1b-Z1919........mtdna U3b
> *
> Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008. A canine tooth from an inhumation burial of a child (c.12 years old) inside a dolium was used for DNA analysis.....*.belonged to R1b-Z2103.*
> Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004. A molar from a juvenile male (age 16–17) was used for DNA analysis.
> Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008. A molar from one individual, probably male, was used for DNA analysis......*belonged to J2-Z7402*


And your point being? This doesn't negate what I said. There was also a R1a-Z93 sample discovered in a Thracian from Bulgaria. Additionally, the 2 Cimmmerians tested in a recent paper were Q and R1b-Z2103(if I am not mistaken). Which furthers my point that Cimmerians were not I2a1b-Din.

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