# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

## Alpenjager

Among the several samples found in the recently published Mathieson et al study is found the sample of a Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture, this ruler was the priest-king of a powerful metallurgical civilisation (the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts anywhere in the world), with male dominance and the first fully developed hierarchy. 
His grave counts with around 1000 pieces of Gold like a War Axe, Bulls and a penis protection. This is the most richest grave in the world at this time period, as far as known.

He is found to be positive for T-M184 equivalent SNPs: 
Y3804/FGC1231+
Z7767/FGC1179+

This sample: ANI152 / VAR43 is dated as 6495yBP and his mtDNA is U2

Varna skull grave 43 T-M184 Гроб-43-Череп-и-възстановка-на-главата.gifSkull 43 Varna VHNI-Гроб-43-череп.jpgSkull 43 Varna Портретна-реконструкция-на-човек-от-халколи.jpgSkull 43 Varna VHNI-Гроб-43-очертания-през-черепа.jpgtreasure-varna_43.jpg

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## Alpenjager

Gold decorated tray ( Varna ) restored.pngГроб-43-Възстановка-на-главата-по-черепа-експозиция-20.jpgVarna Necropolis Neolithic Balkans 2b.jpgKulturi.jpg

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## Salento

Golden Man
Hope this pic is Legit.


http://badamba.info/english/en_live/...rcheology.html

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## davef

Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was

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## Salento

> Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was


That’s because people I’m my House think that he looks a bit like me.
Later I changed the Avatar again to an older one. (That’s me and Neandy by the way)

(I’m also Y T)

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## FIREYWOTAN

Thank you for spelling out a connective tissue of both the Verna Culture and it's Priest- King. The ability to organizing the facts adds credibility to a search for a point of entry.
The hardest part of organizing my thoughts was answered.

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## Angela

According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184".

Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...

Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?




https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...west_yamna.png

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## Salento

> According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184".
> 
> Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...
> 
> Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...west_yamna.png


Is it this maybe?

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## Angela

> Is it this maybe?


That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.

It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?

In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like 

I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?

On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".

I'm going to try to get a visual of it, but I'm not as good as you. :)

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## Salento

> That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.
> 
> It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?
> 
> In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like 
> 
> I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?
> 
> On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".
> ...


In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

Those Numbers are very small.

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## davef

Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

A bit confused

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## Salento

> Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?
> 
> A bit confused


I spent over a year in Florence.
Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eo_Renzi_2.jpg
Roberto Benigni

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## Salento

Sile input in this Thread would be Highly Appreciated. He has extended Knowledge of the T-M184 Haplogroup!

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## Angela

> I spent over a year in Florence.
> Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
> Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
>  https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Matteo_Renzi_2.jpg
> Roberto Benigni


We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?

Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.

Also, Benigni, whom I adore, is hardly "typical" of more "Mediterranean" looking Tuscans, although he's maybe a funnier looking version of Dante.



There is certainly a range among Tuscans, however. These are the ones that immediately come to my mind. 

Yves Montand:


Luigi Ugolini:


Paolo Ruffini:



Gianna Nannini when she was young:


Oriana Fallaci:


Irene Grandi:


Stefania Sandrelli:


Massimiliano Allegri-maybe closer to Varna man?


Maybe more what you're thinking of when you say showing more of the "Celtic" influence? (although it could very well be Italic influence as well) It's my impression that these "types" are more common in the northwestern part of Toscana proper, like Livorno, Viareggio, etc., and that people get more "Mediterranean" as you go toward Lazio. However, that's not always the case. There are really no hard and fast rules for this sort of thing in Italy: you can always find exceptions. Zeffirelli, for example, was born around Firenze, while Allegri comes from the northwest. 

Jovanotti:


Marcello Lippi when he was young and a player:


Franco Zeffirelli:



As for Sile, if he had the slightest modicum of civility, he would be still here, even if he has a reputation for posting material which is totally incorrect and confused.

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## Salento

> We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?


I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
Lorenzo De Medici:

La Gioconda:

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## Pax Augusta

> I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
> Lorenzo De Medici:



If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.

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## Angela

> In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.
> 
> Those Numbers are very small.


I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC. 

If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

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## Salento

> I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC. 
> 
> If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.


I meant the Numbers in the picture are very small, and hard to read. We couldn’t see it. lol

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## Pax Augusta

> I spent over a year in Florence.
> Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.


Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.

Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.

Blondism in Italy








Height in Italy 1879-1883



Roberto Benigni is a comedian, hardly comedians are average faces. Roberto Benigni with his wife who is a north Italian actress from Romagna. Anyway, Benigni is not a Med type.

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## Angela

> Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.
> 
> Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.
> 
> Blondism in Italy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly right, Pax.

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## Salento

> If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.


I had not intention to offend anybody, and I don’t believe I did.
Che cosa ho detto per meritare questo?
(What did I say to merit this?)
Va bè dai, non fa niente.
(It’s ok, it doesn’t matter.)

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## Ygorcs

> I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC. 
> 
> If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.


This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.

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## Angela

> I meant the Numbers in the picture are very small, and hard to read. We couldn’t see it. lol


That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:




> _In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans._


I didn't know what you meant by it.

As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC. 

So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.

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## Pax Augusta

> Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.


Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.

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## Salento

> That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know what you meant by it.
> 
> As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC. 
> 
> So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.


In this context, It only meant that when somebody mention Tuscans it’s not always easy to understand f they also mean Etruscans too.
Sorry from my part for not been clear.

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## Salento

> Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.
> 
> It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.


Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.

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## Angela

> This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.


Another possibility is that the elites of the first millennium BC were a mix of prior elites with a more "northern" orientation because of input from various prior "Indo-European" speaking migrants from over the Alps, locals absorbed over time, and perhaps some input from the southeast. I'm definitely not sure that this input, perhaps including J2, of which there is quite a bit in Toscana, came in the first millennium BC. 

I have been saying for years that I think it will turn out that J2 (and bearers of other haplogroups as well) who carried more Caucasus like ancestry started entering Europe long before the first millennium BC, starting, indeed in the late Neolithic. 

I think I may be right, although when precisely this reached Italy has to wait for some more ancient dna from Italy.

From Roy King:
"Focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean areas: *The late Neolithic Peloponnese samples are shifted toward BA Anatolia and Chalcolithic Anatolia with presumptive CHG input.* The *earlier Neolithic sample from the Peloponnese aligns with the early Greek Neolithic samples. The later samples are about 4000 BCE in dating and also cluster with Minoan Crete samples. The one Minoan--I9130--who is G2a in Y chromosome looks like the Early Greek Neolithic samples; the rest cluster with the late Peloponnese and the late Anatolian (Chalcolthic/BA) samples.* The *data strongly suggest a movement circa 4000 BCE from Anatolia to mainland Greece, perhaps associated with J2a1* and the pre-Greek substrate languages (-ss- and -nth1 toponyms).

This would explain why some of these samples are "like" modern Tuscans despite the fact that modern Tuscans supposedly have excess "Caucasus".

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## Angela

Sorry, content deleted.

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## Pax Augusta

> Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.


This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.



and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

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## Angela

> This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.
> 
> 
> 
> and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.


Thank you for interjecting some sanity, here. 

Marcello Lippi should have someone do his genealogy and see if he's a descendent of Fra Lippo Lippi. :)

Self portrait of Filippino Lippi:




I did see it in an article that Renzi has ancestry from the Marche, but I can't find it now. Maybe the author was wrong.

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## eastara

Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/

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## Angela

> Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and* probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.*
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
> https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/


Thanks, Eastara,

Yes, I wondered upthread if maybe the Varna outlier with quite a bit of Yamnaya was the one who landed near Tuscans, given the genetic make-up of modern Tuscans, and not the "King" or chieftan or wealthiest man, however we would define him. 

I need someone who isn't slightly colorblind to read these for me. :)

Which WHGs would have been near Varna? Would it have been Ukraine samples? Does Genetiker have pigmentation data for them?

I know there was a blonde, blue-eyed Neolithic sample that Gamba et al showed quite a while ago. KO1 would have been the WHG in the area, yes?


I know there was at least one in Anatolia.

Then there are all the Globular Amphora ones. I don't know which particular hunter-gatherers they would have encountered.

All of this said, I don't know what algorithm Genetiker is using, with how many snps.

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## davef

> Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
> https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/


There's a Sicilian like Iron Age Balkan as well, it's the red dot with the green dot inscribed in it. The other Iron Age balkans are, um, with the various Neolithic farmers directly below the Sicilians? My eyes hurt

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## Angela

Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.

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## Alpenjager

All of you should relativize these Mathieson et al autosomal results.

If you take a look into the numbers of the genomes, you will see quickly that Varna Outlier have 14 times more information than Varna Elite Leader. We can't talk about autosomal "FACTS" with a BAM file with less than 30k SNPs and mostly 1-2 reads/SNP

The Varna Outlier female is in fact a reliable genome, ~400k but not the autosomal results of Varna Elite leader. He still could be blond perfectly because most of his linked SNPs have not been sequenced yet.

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## eastara

> Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?
> 
> One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.
> 
> As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.


Yes, a detailed context with original photos of the excavations are given in the Supplementary Data:
https://media.nature.com/original/na...re25778-s2.pdf

It seems the Bulgarian Iron Age was accidentally included into the Neolithic/Chalcolithic samples from Dzhulyunitza. No indication this young woman could be a sacrifice.

_The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

 I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.



_

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## Angela

I went back and re-read that section. I don't understand why some people have concluded this sample represents a new wave of migrants from Anatolia or other areas of the Mid-east. There's nothing in the archaeological context to indicate that from what I can see.

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## Salento

Migration Map of T-M184
(Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)

What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, and goes back towards North Africa, and the Horn of Africa.

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## Alpenjager

> Migration Map of T-M184
> (Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)
> 
> What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, North Africa, and towards the Horn of Africa.


This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.

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## Salento

> This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png
> 
> Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.


Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age) 
This is what NatGeo Helix got.

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## Alpenjager

> Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
> Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
> Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age) 
> This is what NatGeo Helix got.


Al of these maps has a very poor research behind it. Too limited references. Don't take into account them. I have talked with 23andMe team some years ago and they use close to nothing to make these maps. Genographic project also have outdated maps.

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## FIREYWOTAN

The amount of information that we currently have at our fingertips seems to open our minds to a field of possibilities. I'm starting my second month and all I can say is thank you for sharing the high and lows of knowing about where to start.

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## Salento

> Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?
> 
> A bit confused


IMO, a Tuscan mean: an Individual with more or less North/Center Italy + Etruscan Ancestry.
Some on my results specifically single out the Tuscans, asserting that I match the reference DNA from Tuscans individuals with Italian Ancestry. (In other results I also match the Center and South Italians.)

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## Angela

You mean these Etruscans? :)

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## Salento

I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!

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## Angela

> I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!


Stick with academic papers and you'll be fine. :)

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## Alpenjager

I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:

GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions

Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
East European HG---------------------------29%
Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
Karitiana------------------------------------------8%

Single Population Sharing:
#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Anatolia_ChL	22.89

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## Salento

> I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:
> 
> GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions
> 
> Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
> East European HG---------------------------29%
> Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
> Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
> Karitiana------------------------------------------8%
> ...


Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.

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## Alpenjager

> Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.


Z002783
ANI152 (VAR43)



Z017041
I0700 Malak Preslavets



Z113504
I1108 Malak Preslavets

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## Salento

> Z002783
> ANI152 (VAR43)
> 
> 
> 
> Z017041
> I0700 Malak Preslavets
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the Kit numbers Alpenjager. :)

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## Salento

Golden Man (Var43) Eurogenes K36 Results. As Alpenjager stated earlier the Kit has only 11K snp’s, Just for Curiosity.

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## Salento

> Golden Man (Var43) Eurogenes K36 Results. As Alpenjager stated earlier the Kit has only 11K snp’s, Just for Curiosity.


lol this Fossil scores more Italian than me. (I’m 27.65 IT on K36)

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## Salento

Golden Man var43 *puntDNAL K10 Ancient*
Kit Z002783 (11K SNP’s only - limited accuracy)

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1ENF60.72
2WHG29.03
3CHG10.25

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Sardinian10.58
2Sicilian18.4
3Italian_South21.11
4Sephardic_Jew21.34
5Tuscan22.18
6Spanish_Southwest22.31
7Ashkenazi_Jew24.14
8Italian_North24.33
9Albanian25.63
10Spanish_Northeast25.71
11Moroccan26.32
12Greek26.38
13Tunisian26.64
14Cypriot26.97
15Lebanese30.55
16Egyptian30.67
17Basque_Spanish30.75
18Jordanian31.13
19Algerian31.16
20Bulgarian31.35

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## Sile

a bit on the varna gold

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nf52u

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## Salento

> a bit on the varna gold
> 
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nf52u


Interesting video. After the Flood, the few survivors spread all over. Just like the Y T.

----------


## nancyburson

How do you know Zeffirelli is a J2? I have heard that he is only related to Da Vinci by marriage.

Thank you

----------


## BMW

> Among the several samples found in the recently published Mathieson et al study is found the sample of a Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture, this ruler was the priest-king of a powerful metallurgical civilisation (the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts anywhere in the world), with male dominance and the first fully developed hierarchy. 
> His grave counts with around 1000 pieces of Gold like a War Axe, Bulls and a penis protection. This is the most richest grave in the world at this time period, as far as known.
> 
> He is found to be positive for T-M184 equivalent SNPs: 
> Y3804/FGC1231+
> Z7767/FGC1179+
> 
> This sample: ANI152 / VAR43 is dated as 6495yBP and his mtDNA is U2
> 
> Attachment 9777Attachment 9775Attachment 9774Attachment 9773Attachment 9772


Hello to all!

I have the above mentioned Y3804/FGC1231+ and Z7767/FGC1179+ SNPs in my Y Tree.
What significance should I read into that?

----------


## Salento

> Hello to all!
> 
> I have the above mentioned Y3804/FGC1231+ and Z7767/FGC1179+ SNPs in my Y Tree.
> What significance should I read into that?


All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think.

Papà below: lol

----------


## BMW

> All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,
> 
> T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think.
> 
> Papà below: lol


ooooo my Papaaaaa :77:  :Innocent:

----------


## BMW

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html appears to have CTS8489 right where the Elite leader of the Varna Culture ( western Black sea coast ) would have been.

----------


## BMW

"All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,

T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think..."

Wouldn't it be just as probable for him to be a brother or uncle of the "Golden Man"?...or am I missing something?

----------


## Salento

> "All y Ts should be positive with Golden Man,
> 
> T-M184 is the Top Dog, the Father of all of us, I think..."
> 
> Wouldn't it be just as probable for him to be a brother or uncle of the "Golden Man"?...or am I missing something?


The Varna sample is way too young to be directly related to the first T-M184, by thousands of years.

The T-M184 that you posted is the Golden Man from the Varna culture.

the image I posted is supposedly from a real recreation.

Golden Man is the nickname of ANI152 VAR 43 

... Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture ...

... The oldest gold treasure in the world, dating from 4,600 BC to 4,200 BC ...










http://badamba.info/english/en_live/...rcheology.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_Necropolis

----------


## BMW

I get all of that....for the most part.
Just wondering if sharing SNPs with him tends to favor more towards him being a direct ancestor....as opposed to an incredibly distant "cousin".

----------


## BMW

This deals with the subject of Anatolia, in reference to Varna:

https://indo-european.eu/tag/varna/

----------


## torzio

> This deals with the subject of Anatolia, in reference to Varna:
> 
> https://indo-european.eu/tag/varna/


You need to include this
https://indo-european.eu/2019/02/the...teppe-ecotone/

The wallacian plain has a few ydna T from the neolithic , not including varna

----------


## BMW

> You need to include this
> https://indo-european.eu/2019/02/the...teppe-ecotone/
> 
> The wallacian plain has a few ydna T from the neolithic , not including varna


Thanks for that, torzio.

----------


## torzio

There is still no morereads on Golden man except M184 snp

There is reads on the third neolithic karsdorf T sample KARS537.....using BWA MEM

he is the same as the other 2 samples I0795 and I0797 ...which is T-Y63197 ( x Y152024)

----------


## Salento

_one to one
_
R1 vs var43 (Golden Man)

Largest seg. 9.5 cM
Half seg. 21.9 cM

----------


## Salento

_one to one_

Golden Man vs Salento

Largest seg. 12.8 cM
Half seg. 49.9 cM

----------


## Salento

@Torzio

... unrelated to y T, but ... :

_one to one_

*SZ1 vs R1*

Largest Segment 4.6 cM

----------


## Salento

*Golden Man vs SZ1

*Largest seg. 18.1 cM

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio
> 
> ... unrelated to y T, but ... :
> 
> _one to one_
> 
> *SZ1 vs R1*
> 
> Largest Segment 4.6 cM


interesting that SZ1 is noted as a Other Italian


Kit JX1962641

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Atlantic_Med
28.25

2
North_European
25.33

3
Caucasus
22.96

4
Southwest_Asian
7.27

5
Gedrosia
5.21

6
East_Asian
3.28

7
Siberian
2.98

8
Northwest_African
2.62

9
South_Asian
0.84

10
East_African
0.63

11
Southeast_Asian
0.36

12
Sub_Saharan
0.28



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
O_Italian (Dodecad)
9.22

2
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
12.61

3
Romanians (Behar)
12.69

4
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
12.88

5
N_Italian (Dodecad)
13.24

6
TSI30 (Metspalu)
13.33

7
C_Italian (Dodecad)
13.61

8
Tuscan (HGDP)
13.67

9
Greek (Dodecad)
14.84

10
North_Italian (HGDP)
15.96

----------


## torzio

R1 sample...also noted as a Other Italian



Kit AG4512653

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Atlantic_Med
34.51

2
North_European
26.56

3
Caucasus
24.76

4
Southwest_Asian
5.79

5
Gedrosia
4.58

6
Siberian
1.6

7
Northwest_African
1.57

8
Sub_Saharan
0.64



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
O_Italian (Dodecad)
6.32

2
N_Italian (Dodecad)
7.32

3
TSI30 (Metspalu)
8.83

4
Tuscan (HGDP)
9.77

5
North_Italian (HGDP)
10.16

6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
11.38

7
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
13.28

8
Romanians (Behar)
13.41

9
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
13.67

----------


## Salento

@Torzio
one to one ... this settings:


... if nothing, _Extra_: add another 3 on the last rectangular input, ... and check the B38 Checkbox.

not y T, but:
Salento vs I3313 - I4331 - I4332 - I3499
(... without the last _Extra_ settings)

----------


## Salento

_... y T ...

Salento vs SZ36 & CL23_

----------


## Salento

one to one

y T Elite Leader vs y T SZ36 & CL23
... 15 cM & 10.3 cM

(... not me, I’m not the “Elite”)  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

,me and I3313


Largest segment = 3.9 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 21.1cM (0.589 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

294009 SNPs used for this comparison.

64.297 Pct SNPs are full identical

chr.....1, 8, 17, 18, 19, 21

----------


## torzio

me and Kit RL6378186 (I4331 Ancient Croatia J2b2a)



Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 19.3cM (0.539 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

259257 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.284 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

me and and Kit TX8387837 (I4332 Ancient Dalmatia) [-]


Largest segment = 4.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 43.8cM (1.222 Pct)

12 shared segments found for this comparison.

265764 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.982 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

me and Kit JM8436604 (I3499 Vucedol R1b) [-]


Largest segment = 3.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 10.4cM (0.291 Pct)

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

148549 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.185 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

nothing with golden man or SZ36 or CL23


my ancestors where in the mist ......................*They find strange things in the mist*

----------


## torzio

my ancestors came from here ............mixing with central-european Illyrians circa 2000BC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubnaya_culture

----------


## Salento

> nothing with golden man or SZ36 or CL23


... try this:
_
B37 - B38
SNP window size threshold ... 25
Minimum segment cM size ... 3
Size (in SNPs) of Mismatch... 3

_

----------


## torzio

me and Kit SZ4327468 (CL23) [-]

Largest segment = 3.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 11.1cM (0.309 Pct)

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

294410 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.408 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

me and Kit BY5848416 (SZ36.SG) [-]


Largest segment = 3.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 10.5cM (0.293 Pct)

3 shared segments found for this comparison.

392737 SNPs used for this comparison.

51.457 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

me and Kit Z002783 (*VAR43) [Migration - F2 - Z]

Largest segment = 16.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 71cM (2.182 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

6335 SNPs used for this comparison.

58.642 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

interesting .............CL23 is

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
N_Italian (Dodecad)
5.77

2
O_Italian (Dodecad)
7.66

3
North_Italian (HGDP)
8.46

4
TSI30 (Metspalu)
8.7

5
Tuscan (HGDP)
10.3

6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
11.84




.................................................. ........................

and I3313 dalmatian

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
N_Italian (Dodecad)
4.97

2
TSI30 (Metspalu)
7.06

3
North_Italian (HGDP)
7.17

4
O_Italian (Dodecad)
7.43

5
Tuscan (HGDP)
8.17

6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
11.1

----------


## torzio

me and the Liburnian sample R1


Largest segment = 6.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 123.3cM (3.437 Pct)

*33 shared segments* found for this comparison.

648286 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.59 Pct SNPs are full identical



all 22 chr have matches ....only blank in chr 4, 7, 9 and 13

----------


## Salento

y T one to one

_Salento vs Karsdorf’s LBKs_

I0795 KAR6
I0797 KAR16a
Kars537







https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains

----------


## Salento

_y T 

Elite Leader (Golden Man) vs Kars537 

_

----------


## torzio

me and Kit M671535 (I0795_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]


Largest segment = 13 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 549.3cM (15.38 Pct)

*111 shared segments* found for this comparison.

29944 SNPs used for this comparison.

59.949 Pct SNPs are full identical


Every chr is used

----------


## torzio

me and Kit M789703 (I0797_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]


Largest segment = 11.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 475.1cM (13.304 Pct)

*89 shared segments* found for this comparison.

25488 SNPs used for this comparison.

59.138 Pct SNPs are full identical


all 22 chr has data

----------


## torzio

me and Kit JM7481206 (Kars537) [23andMe]


Largest segment = 3.6 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 13.1cM (0.366 Pct)

4 shared segments found for this comparison.

518214 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.409 Pct SNPs are full identical



9, 15 and 22 only chr that have data

----------


## torzio

> _y T 
> 
> Elite Leader (Golden Man) vs Kars537 
> 
> _



the 3 x T karsdorf and the 2 x Malek bulgarian T are suppose to have nearly identical snp's

----------


## torzio

*Comparing Kit JM7481206 (Kars537) [23andMe] and Kit M789703 (I0797_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]*

Largest segment = 9.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 218.4cM (6.11 Pct)

*47 shared segments* found for this comparison.

30624 SNPs used for this comparison.

82.599 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

*not related these 2 x T from Karsdorf*

Comparing Kit M671535 (I0795_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M] and Kit M789703 (I0797_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]



No shared DNA segments found

3805 SNPs used for this comparison.

----------


## torzio

Kit M671535 ....................karsdorf I0795

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Atlantic_Med
66.85

2
Caucasus
23.54

3
Southwest_Asian
9.61



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Sardinian (HGDP)
6.02

2
Andalucia (1000Genomes)
25.39

----------


## Salento

> *not related these 2 x T from Karsdorf*
> 
> Comparing Kit M671535 (I0795_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M] and Kit M789703 (I0797_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]
> 
> 
> 
> No shared DNA segments found
> 
> 3805 SNPs used for this comparison.


 



195 cM ... if you check the bottom 2 checkboxes ... :)

----------


## torzio

me and and Kit Z017041 (I0700 Malak Preslavets) [Migration - F2 - Z] ................


Largest segment = 14.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 1177.7cM (32.894 Pct)

*265 shared segments* found for this comparison.

94926 SNPs used for this comparison.

58.411 Pct SNPs are full identical


all 22 chr has data for myself

----------


## torzio

me and Kit Z113504 (I1108 Malak Preslavets) [Migration - F2 - Z]


Largest segment = 19.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 1543.6cM (43.142 Pct)

*320 shared segments f*ound for this comparison.

73036 SNPs used for this comparison.

57.922 Pct SNPs are full identical



all 22 chr has data

----------


## torzio

*Comparing Kit Z017041 (I0700 Malak Preslavets) [Migration - F2 - Z] and Kit Z113504 (I1108 Malak Preslavets) [Migration - F2 - Z]
*

Largest segment = 35.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 2645.9cM (74.032 Pct)
*
344 shared segments* found for this comparison.

42286 SNPs used for this comparison.

89.595 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

same group of ancient neolitihic T people from germany and bulgaria

*Comparing Kit Z017041 (I0700 Malak Preslavets) [Migration - F2 - Z] and Kit M671535 (I0795_Karsdorf) [Migration - V3 - M]


*
Largest segment = 38.4 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 914.7cM (25.716 Pct)

*103 shared segments* found for this comparison.

13541 SNPs used for this comparison.

*89.609 Pct* SNPs are full identical

----------


## Salento

@Torzio 

… I just watched “Mystery of the Golden King” (Hunting Atlantis) …

… they investigate Ani152 a 7,000-year-old skeleton buried in gold treasure, and uncover evidence of an ancient catastrophe that could be the basis for Noah's flood and the destruction of Atlantis … and I would add the low y T ratio :)

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> … I just watched “Mystery of the Golden King” (Hunting Atlantis) …
> … they investigate Ani152 a 7,000-year-old skeleton buried in gold treasure, and uncover evidence of an ancient catastrophe that could be the basis for Noah's flood and the destruction of Atlantis … and I would add the low y T ratio :)



what is your conclusion ?

----------


## Salento

> what is your conclusion ?


*We are Atlantis*  :Grin:  y T line is whats left of it, … make sense :) 

The y T Varna King treasure and findings show signs of a sophisticated civilization, just like Atlantis and even though the Varna City is underwater, supposedly it got gradually submerged vs the more aggressive Atlantis catastrophe story, but who knows.

----------


## torzio

> *We are Atlantis*  y T line is whats left of it, … make sense :) 
> 
> The y T Varna King treasure and findings show signs of a sophisticated civilization, just like Atlantis and even though the Varna City is underwater, supposedly it got gradually submerged vs the more aggressive Atlantis catastrophe story, but who knows.



ok...I will change ethnicity from italian to atlantian

----------


## Salento

> ok...I will change ethnicity from italian to atlantian


I see Aquaman, but I wouldn’t … in the comic books Atlantians and Amazons didn’t always get along, Wonder Woman hunted down Atlantians :)

----------


## torzio

i am stuck like my avatar , then

----------


## Philjames100

> @Torzio 
> … I just watched “Mystery of the Golden King” (Hunting Atlantis) …
> … they investigate Ani152 a 7,000-year-old skeleton buried in gold treasure, and uncover evidence of an ancient catastrophe that could be the basis for Noah's flood and the destruction of Atlantis … and I would add the low y T ratio :)


Sticking together two unrelated stories... sight problem is Atlantis is in the Atlantic not the Black Sea. Black Sea flood as the origin of the Noah Flood story is credible though.

----------


## Salento

> Sticking together two unrelated stories... sight problem is Atlantis is in the Atlantic not the Black Sea. Black Sea flood as the origin of the Noah Flood story is credible though.


as legend goes, … Varna, Crete, Canary, … are all probable candidates for Atlantis, 

… imho Atlantis is a symbolic place of a much wider devastation, and there are many Atlantis’.

from his point of view, Plato biasly says that the conquering Atlanteans were defeated by the Athenians and friends,

… metaphorically the Athenians could have been the Mycenaeans and the Atlanteans were the Minoans devastated by earthquakes and tsunamis from the big Thera (Santorini) volcanic eruption.

----------


## torzio

> as legend goes, … Varna, Crete, Canary, … are all probable candidates for Atlantis, 
> 
> … imho Atlantis is a symbolic place of a much wider devastation, and there are many Atlantis’.
> 
> from his point of view, Plato biasly says that the conquering Atlanteans were defeated by the Athenians and friends,
> 
> … metaphorically the Athenians could have been the Mycenaeans and the Atlanteans were the Minoans devastated by earthquakes and tsunamis from the big Thera (Santorini) volcanic eruption.



https://www.martinpetkov.com/your-op...lantis-english

----------


## torzio

https://atlantisblacksea.wordpress.com/


http://www.varnamall.bg/en/events/95...%BD%D0%B0.html

https://www.rferl.org/a/archaeologis.../30908943.html


https://steemit.com/history/@nakedch...-the-black-sea


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86grrGoCqXQ

----------


## bicicleur 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_...me_Inundations

EEI deposits in the Black Sea basin occur in the New Euxinian series. On the continental slope and in the deep-sea basin, they are a light reddish-brown and a pale yellow mud .5–1 metre (20–39 in) thick.[9] In color they resemble the chocolate clays of the Caspian basin, and their age is near that of the latter (15,000 BP).

The spilover from the Caspian Sea into the Black Sea happened 15 ka.
Because of the Ice caps the rivers flowing to the Northern Ice Sea were blocked and their flow was reversed into the Aral Lake and Caspian Sea

----------

