# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics >  Y-DNA of Sumerians?

## Dale Cooper

Well considering that Sumerians are the first human civilization in true meaning of word: civilization, and they are pre-semitic people of Mesopotamia with unknown origin and with non-semitic language, I am very curious does anyone know to which y-dna haplogroup they belonged? I mean, is there any relevant theory at least? or some research? 

Thank you

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## adamo

Probably a heavy J1 y-DNA predominance with minor T and E3b substratums ( every tenth man for each I would say.) I would suspect the first Sumerians of southern Iraq to have a genetic composition more similar to Saudi Arabians, Jordanians, Yemenites etc. (Semitic Arabs proper). J2 probably came about more towards turkey/Syria/Iraq with the Assyrians and Urartians; the latter being a proto-Armenian people. The J1 sphere of influence is more like southern Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, parts of Syria, Israel, Palestine, Yemen, Oman, UAE; the Arabian peninsula proper has the highest J1 frequencies. "Peninsular Arab" J1 is also found in a quarter to a fifth of north-African men from Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria, frequencies are lower but present in morocco (10-15%) parts of Saudi Arabia and Yemen and southern Iraq have 60-80% J1. j2 on the other hand is most frequent in turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, Georgia, Iran, Azerbaijan, northern Iraq,parts of Israel etc. it is more associated with the Assyrians.

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## Alan

> Probably a heavy J1 y-DNA predominance with minor T and E3b substratums ( every tenth man for each I would say.) I would suspect the first Sumerians of southern Iraq to have a genetic composition more similar to Saudi Arabians, Jordanians, Yemenites etc. (Semitic Arabs proper). J2 probably came about more towards turkey/Syria/Iraq with the Assyrians and Urartians; the latter being a proto-Armenian people. The J1 sphere of influence is more like southern Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, parts of Syria, Israel, Palestine, Yemen, Oman, UAE; the Arabian peninsula proper has the highest J1 frequencies. "Peninsular Arab" J1 is also found in a quarter to a fifth of north-African men from Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria, frequencies are lower but present in morocco (10-15%) parts of Saudi Arabia and Yemen and southern Iraq have 60-80% J1. j2 on the other hand is most frequent in turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, Georgia, Iran, Azerbaijan, northern Iraq,parts of Israel etc. it is more associated with the Assyrians.


 I think you didn't read what he wrote. The Summerians were the first and *non semitic* population of southern Mesopotamia. scientists believe they had a more ancient connections with some groups of Anatolia, Caucasus, Elam and Dravidian groups. But what kind of language family they belonged to is still unknown. Modern Iraqi Arabs (Semites) are not representative for ancient Sumerians. With South Iraqis you probably mean Marsh Arabs.

Well one think about this theory doesn't fits. The Marsh Arabs might or might not be descend of ancient Sumerians. Lets assume they have ties to Sumerians. What is so interesting about Marsh Arabs autosomal just like all Iraqi Arabs, they show *most* of their genetic ties to Northern West Asia (Kurds, Assyrians, Iranians, Anatolians) but than show strong signs of Southern West Asia (Saudi Arabia) inpact. 
Based on yDNA they are almost exclusively J1c3d, this explains the Southern West Asian input. This high frequency, even more than Saudi Arabs themselves, can be explained through bottle-neck-effect.

their maternal line shows as expected connection to surrounding populations of Northern West Asia. 

In other words it appears like Marsh Arabs are autosomal descend predominantly of Sumerians BUT based on ydna and mtdna it appears like an Arabian Islamic "Elite" took allot of local Mesopotamian women (as we know in Islam heterogamy is allowed and people can took up to 4 women). This explains why yDNA and autosomal DNA contradict each other.


As to Sumerians I assume they were some kind of yDNA G*, J*, LT* and some R* lineages.

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## Maciamo

Nobody can know at present to which haplogroups the Sumerians belonged without ancient Y-DNA tests. The population of Mesopotamia underwent perhaps more changes due to wars, conquests, diseases, etc. than almost any other population on Earth in the last 6000 years. Semitic people are mostly associated with haplogroups E-M123 and J1-P58. Nowadays J1-P58 is the most frequent haplogroup in southern Iraq, but I seriously doubt that it was present at all at the time of ancient Sumer. 

A few Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and include haplogroups L2a1, R, H14a, J1a1 and U4. The presence of hg L is surely a sign that E1b1b (probably E-M123) was already present among ancient Sumerians. Other Neolithic lineages like G, J2, R1b(xL23) and T are also likely. The presence of mtDNA U4 is, I believe, a sign that ancient Sumerians carried some R1 paternal lineages. It's unlikely that R1a had penetrated in Mesopotamia so early, so I would rather go for older subclades of R1b.

EDIT : the Sumerian mtDNA was from the Syrian city of Mari, not from Sumer itself, and from the Late Sumerian period. The U4 might indeed be linked to the presence of R1a or R1b people, perhaps the Gutians or early Indo-European invasions. 

After reconsideration of the age of J1-P58 in southern Mesopotamia, I think that the original Sumerians and Akkadians belonged mostly to haplogroups J1-P58, E-M123, G2a and T.

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## adamo

Are you trying to imply that there is no genetic continuity in the Sumer region since Sumerian times to now? They were a non-Semitic rare people's......what were they hg T,L,F? I personally doubt it; there must be genetic continuity in the region over the past 5,000-10,000 at the minimum.

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## adamo

Hg L? Lol. What does that have anything to do with Sumerians; L peaks in Pakistan and is also "present" in parts of Iran, Afghanistan, India, Tajikistan etc; I don't see the link. T seems much more plausible as a substratum among the first Sumerians though.

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## RHAS

> Well considering that Sumerians are the first human civilization in true meaning of word: civilization, and they are pre-semitic people of Mesopotamia with unknown origin and with non-semitic language, I am very curious does anyone know to which y-dna haplogroup they belonged? I mean, is there any relevant theory at least? or some research? 
> 
> Thank you


"While noting that multiple haplogroups are likely involved in the spread of languages through the middle east, Dr. King noted a correlation between very old Middle Eastern languages of uncertain origin and Haplogroup J2 while at the same time theorizing that Haplogroup J1 may have been involved in spreading Semitic languages through the region. These old languages possibly linked to J2 are known to have existed in Mesopotamia and the Northern Levant and this substratum is sometimes referred to as "Banana" languages due to their syllabic duplication."
*M172 Blog - Neolithic Migrations in the Near East and Aegean, 2009.
*http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/07/neolithic-migrations-in-near-east-and.html

"Proto-Euphratean was considered by some Assyriologists (for example Samuel Noah Kramer), to be the substratum language of the people that introduced farming into Southern Iraq in the Early Ubaid period (5300-4700 BC). Benno Landsberger and other Assyriologists argued that by examining the structure of Sumerian names of occupations, as well as toponyms and hydronyms, one can suggest that there was once an earlier group of people in the region who spoke an entirely different language, often referred to as Proto-Euphratean. Terms for "farmer", "smith", "carpenter", and "date" (as in the fruit), also do not appear to have a Sumerian or Semitic origin. Post-Soviet linguists coined a different term, "banana languages," proposed by Igor Dyakonov and Vladislav Ardzinba, based on a characteristic feature of multiple personal names attested in Sumerian texts, namely reduplication of syllables (like in the word banana): Inanna, Zababa, Chuwawa, Bunene etc. The same feature was attested in some other unclassified Oriental languages, including Minoan language." 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Euphratean_language



(Image: Inanna)



(Image: Asasara)

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## Alan

> Hg L? Lol. What does that have anything to do with Sumerians; L peaks in Pakistan and is also "present" in parts of Iran, Afghanistan, India, Tajikistan etc; I don't see the link. T seems much more plausible as a substratum among the first Sumerians though.


 First of I would never use the names of modern artificially states like Pakistan, to describe the geographic origin of an Haplogroup, if these countries are made up of much older, geographically from each other good separated different populations. 

To be more precise Haplogroup L* peaks in Balochistan parts of Balochistan are modern day West Pakistan (geographically actually part of West Asia) and Southeast Iran. 

But as we should already know from now on. A Haplogroup does not have to originate there, where it peaks. More important is where this Haplogroup shows it's highest diversity.

For example Haplogroup R1a* peaks among some Indian groups up to 80%! But all of this belong to one and the same subclade, which brings us to the conclusion that it ist the result of one male dominated wave of migration into this area.

The same is with Haplogroup L*. It has it's highest diversity in Balochistan, Mesopotamia and the rest of the Iranian plateau. So we can assume that it's origin lies in either of these three locations. And considering that the Dravidians very likely came from somewhere in Mesopotamia/Iran and reached the Indus Valley through a route on the coastline of Iran. I assume this Haplogroup is an introduction to Baluchistan from further West.

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## bicicleur

> "While noting that multiple haplogroups are likely involved in the spread of languages through the middle east, Dr. King noted a correlation between very old Middle Eastern languages of uncertain origin and Haplogroup J2 while at the same time theorizing that Haplogroup J1 may have been involved in spreading Semitic languages through the region. These old languages possibly linked to J2 are known to have existed in Mesopotamia and the Northern Levant and this substratum is sometimes referred to as "Banana" languages due to their syllabic duplication."
> *M172 Blog - Neolithic Migrations in the Near East and Aegean, 2009.
> *http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/07/neolithic-migrations-in-near-east-and.html
> 
> "Proto-Euphratean was considered by some Assyriologists (for example Samuel Noah Kramer), to be the substratum language of the people that introduced farming into Southern Iraq in the Early Ubaid period (5300-4700 BC). Benno Landsberger and other Assyriologists argued that by examining the structure of Sumerian names of occupations, as well as toponyms and hydronyms, one can suggest that there was once an earlier group of people in the region who spoke an entirely different language, often referred to as Proto-Euphratean. Terms for "farmer", "smith", "carpenter", and "date" (as in the fruit), also do not appear to have a Sumerian or Semitic origin. Post-Soviet linguists coined a different term, "banana languages," proposed by Igor Dyakonov and Vladislav Ardzinba, based on a characteristic feature of multiple personal names attested in Sumerian texts, namely reduplication of syllables (like in the word banana): Inanna, Zababa, Chuwawa, Bunene etc. The same feature was attested in some other unclassified Oriental languages, including Minoan language." 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Euphratean_language


very interesting
my guess was J2 too
Summerians still descend from the first farmers in Mesopotamia, and they should be J2.
Akkadians came from elsewhere and spoke Semitic. I'd say J1, but that is allready a more uncertain.

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## adamo

It peaks at 10% in southeast Iran; even afghanistan's Pashtun people have 15% L; but this is certainly not a spread across the entire country. Pakistan has at least 10% across most of the country with small pockets of up to 20-25% hg L.

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## adamo

As for the Dravidians, they are in no way characterized by y-DNA L (10%) having much more y-DNA H (35% on average). R1a is found in 50% of Indian males to most peoples surprise, with a peak towards the north of course where the indo-Aryan's would have settled.

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## Alan

> It peaks at 10% in southeast Iran; even afghanistan's Pashtun people have 15% L; but this is certainly not a spread across the entire country. Pakistan has at least 10% across most of the country with small pockets of up to 20-25% hg L.


 I think you slightly misunderstood me. As I said where it peaks is not very relevant. It has a high diversity in Iran, Balochistan, Mesopotamia and Central Asia. R1a* peaks at almost 80% among some Indian groups but it's all downstream z93.

So L has either a South_Central Asian, Balochi, Iranian or Mesopotamian origin. All four are a possibility. That It's frequency peaks in South_Central Asia (especially among Kalash it is very frequent) doesn't mean much.

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## adamo

I know, just making observations. Well I guess L's diversity is high in Mesopotamia but what are it's frequencies there; less than a percentage point?

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## adamo

Keeping in mind that y-DNA L descends from K as it's sister T was; I presume a Pakistani origin for y-DNA L. The k mutation took place in central Iran I estimate; further out from it's father F that probably originated near southern Iraq. Same for y-DNA T, they give it an east Iranian/afghan origin.

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## Alan

> I know, just making observations. Well I guess L's diversity is high in Mesopotamia but what are it's frequencies there; less than a percentage point?


No considerably higher. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Y-DNA.svg.png

In Balochistan (Southeast Iran and West Pakistan) it reaches over 16%. In South Iran/South Mesopotamia it reaches over 5%. In Central Asia, especially Afghanistan, it also reaches very high level.


So it must have originated somewhere around modern day Iran. Either in Iran or, slightly West or East of it.

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## Alan

> Keeping in mind that y-DNA L descends from K as it's sister T was; I presume a Pakistani origin for y-DNA L. The k mutation took place in central Iran I estimate; further out from it's father F that probably originated near southern Iraq. Same for y-DNA T, they give it an east Iranian/afghan origin.


As far as I am aware, scientists place the origin of T in Western Asia. Only some of its subclades are believed to have mutated in Central Asia.

This is another indication in favor of an West Asian origin of yDNA L. But as mentioned L could have it's roots in Iran or slightly further West (Mesopotamia) or East (Balochistan,Afghanistan).

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## Goga

I believe that the Sumerians were J2a, R1a* and maybe even R1*

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## adamo

The sumerians of southern iraq? probably none of those lineages.

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## Goga

> The sumerians of southern iraq? probably none of those lineages.


Sumerians came from Eastern Anatolia or Zagros mountains. They were not Semitic. They were the first sun and bull worshipers. Later, the Semites (Assyrians, Akkadians, Arabs) that came from the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula erased Sumerian heritage in Southern Iraq.

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## adamo

So you believe that the sumerians, first colonists of southern iraq were made up of the first indo-european men with the most basal R1 branches, what ever made you believe that? Suddenly y-dna F , T and L seem alot less farfetched. In fact i dont even see why J1 was fully eliminated as a possibility.

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## Goga

Some Sumerians farmers migrated into the Indus Valley. Inthat area there's a lot J2a (& G2a) and R1a* and almost no other 'West Asian' haplogroups or 'Near Eastern' like J1. So West Asians (Sumerians and other proto-Iranics) that migrated into Indus valley belonged most probablyto J2a and R1a!

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## adamo

Listen, R1a was certainly among the indo-European indo-Iranians that invaded Iran, but I truly don't think R1a has anything to do with early Sumerians.

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## adamo

R1a has been present in India from a very different source than Sumerian invaders lolllll, trust me, the indo-Aryan's where R1a and a branch of indo-Europeans; R1a is certainly present in Central Asia, but this is due to indo-European expansions.

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## Goga

R1a is originally either from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau. Even R1a* type to which I do belong is much older than the most modern subclades of R1a in Eastern Europe. My R1a* is ANCESTRAL to the European R1a and not vice versa. The R1a* haplogroup to which I do belong is not from Euriope. So, I mean, if R1* is from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau, if R1b is from that region, if R2 is from that region, why should R1a NOT be from that region? That wouldn't make any sense. R1a folks didn't have wings, they couldn't fly, lol. Like R1*, R2*, R1b is also R1a originally not far from the source... The Sumerians were not Semitic, so it's a HUGE chance that the Sumerians also belonged to R1a, because there's a lot R1a in the area where Sumerians lived...

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## Goga

> Listen, R1a was certainly among the indo-European indo-Iranians that invaded Iran, but I truly don't think R1a has anything to do with early Sumerians.


Indo-Iranians NEVER invaded the Iranian Plateau. Why? Because proto-Iranic tribes ARE and were native to the Iranian Plateau! I mean, my race is Iranic, I've almost for 30% Gedrosia genes in me, I do belong to hg. R1a*. So where do you thing my Gedrosia genes are from???

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## adamo

All R1a stems from the Russian plains just north of the Caspian Sea in my opinion, then some of it re-entered the Iranian plateau and Central Asia; think of the indo-European homeland as the home of pretty much all R.

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## adamo

I would put the home of R somewhere in central or western Kazhakstan. OUT of the Middle East, a tad north of the Caspian Sea, westernmost Kazakhstan-ish region.

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## adamo

From here some would head west into Europe, other branches south and east, back into Iran for example and most notably Central Asia (India,Afghanistan, the Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan etc. region).

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## Goga

> All R1a stems from the Russian plains just north of the Caspian Sea in my opinion, then some of it re-entered the Iranian plateau and Central Asia; think of the indo-European homeland as the home of pretty much all R.


Impossible. It's a well known fact that subclades of R1a* hg. in West Asia are older than in Europe. R1a entered Western-Eastern Europe from West Asia, like it's big brother hg. R1b did.

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## Ike

Even if it's true that R1a emerged in Asia, it could be that it passed between Caspian and Black sea, settled there, populated area, and only later started spreading to East and South Europe, Iran, and India.
All scenarios are possible, so don't be so persuasive.

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## adamo

Can we get more opinions on this matter? I see a debate on its way within the next 24-72 hours lol

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## Goga

> Even if it's true that R1a emerged in Asia, it could be that it passed between Caspian and Black sea, settled there, populated area, and only later started spreading to East and South Europe, Iran, and India.
> All scenarios are possible, so don't be so persuasive.


What you're claiming is indeed possible. But If R1a came to Eastern Europe directly from the Steppes it should took a passage between the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountais. But in north of the Caspian Sea area they didn't find any old subclades of R1a. And I don't think that R1a arrived in Russia through the Ural Mountais, because Ural Mountains are not really that high but it's very cold there. It could serve like a natural barrier, like Hindu Kush or Himalaya against such a massive migration wave. Also, I don't think R1a arrived in West Asia via the Caucasus either, because there's not so much R1a in the Caucasus and the Caucasus mountains are very high and rough. And how do you explain that R1a in Western Europe is older than R1a in Eastern Europe if R1a entered Europe from (Eur)Asian Steppes? The only explanations must* be the CentralAsian - Iranian Plateau corridor* that served as a natural passage of R1a like it happened with R1b. And yet, with your theory it's still possible that the Sumerians belonged partly to R1a! R1a in West Asia is maybe older than the Sumerians.
But I don't understand where some fellas get wicked ideas that R1a is from Eastern Europe? There's absolutely no indication for it. No facts, no archaeological proves, no R1a lineages that support this, nothing…

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## Ike

> What you're claiming is indeed possible.


Possible just as any other option. As for now, this is the theory that suits well with the other data.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...ration_map.jpg




> But If R1a came to Eastern Europe directly from the Steppes it should took a passage between the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountais. But in north of the Caspian Sea area they didn't find any old subclades of R1a.


Not finding any doesn't mean that there were none 10 thousand years ago. How many skeletons of that age were tested?




> And I don't think that R1a arrived in Russia through the Ural Mountais, because Ural Mountains are not really that high but it's very cold there. It could serve like a natural barrier, like Hindu Kush or Himalaya against such a massive migration wave. Also, I don't think R1a arrived in West Asia via the Caucasus either, because there's not so much R1a in the Caucasus and the Caucasus mountains are very high and rough.


Not that high, there are passages. FRIW they could have canoed by the shore :)




> And how do you explain that R1a in Western Europe is older than R1a in Eastern Europe if R1a entered Europe from (Eur)Asian Steppes?


Is and was are two different things. You can't make definite theories about what the situation was before, just by using current distributions. They can be used as indication for archaeologists where to search.

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## adamo

That map is excellent; why is R1a predominantly only found in eastern Iran at 35%; unlike the opposite side of Iran (the west) that has a total combination 40% J (30% J2 and 10% J1) and very little R1a. Why is there very little R1a in the Caucasus region (inability to cross from Russian plains towards Caucasus possibly), this map explains it all. It originated somewhere a tad north of the Caspian Sea in more of the Russia/Kazakhstan region; not peninsular Iran., it would subsequently have spread from its origin location, the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.

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## adamo

R1a first migrated from the plains of Central Asia south wards towards northeastern Iran (indo-Iranians) and not the other way around; same for the indo-Aryan's and the branches found across Uzbekistan,Tajikistan,Afghanistan,Turkmenistan,Pak istan, Nepal etc. they arrived there more recently. This puts it's origin farther to the east of "north of the Caucasus mountains", possibly extreme western Kazakhstan just north and east of the Caspian Sea.

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## elghund



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## Goga

> Possible just as any other option. As for now, this is the theory that suits well with the other data.
> http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...ration_map.jpg


This is only a VERY speculative map about R1a1a1 and NOT about R1a*. the R1a* to which I do belong and which we can find in the Iranian Plateau predates any R1a1a1...

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## Goga

> 


This map is about R1a*1a1* and not about R1a*!

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## Goga

> That map is excellent; why is R1a predominantly only found in eastern Iran at 35%; unlike the opposite side of Iran (the west) that has a total combination 40% J (30% J2 and 10% J1) and very little R1a. Why is there very little R1a in the Caucasus region (inability to cross from Russian plains towards Caucasus possibly), this map explains it all. It originated somewhere a tad north of the Caspian Sea in more of the Russia/Kazakhstan region; not peninsular Iran., it would subsequently have spread from its origin location, the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.


B*llcrap. Kurds (the Medes) *and* Persians have the same amount of Gedrosia component in them, around *30%*. that means that ancient Iranic people had at least 30% of Gedrosia component in them. Gedrosia is a West Asian component and native to the Iranian Plateau.

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## Goga

Once again, the R1a* hg. to which I do belong is older than R1a1a1 (M17). My haplogorup R1a* *PREDATES* 'M17'. And i'm native to the Zagros Mountains/the Iranian Plateau. How do you guys explain this???

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## Goga

This map is about * R1a**  , *much older* than *R1a1a1* (*M17*) !

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## elghund

This map of R1a* shows R1a* being dispersed across Britain, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, the Iranian Plateau, the United Arab Emirate and Oman. The area between the Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau look good for the origin. Has anyone looked at the STR diversity of R1a*?

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## Goga

The hg. R1a* to which I do belong is NOT *even* M17. I'm R1a: L62+, L63+, SRY10831.2-, M17*-* !!!! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/1...zidi-kurd.html . I'm sure that the Sumerians that came from the Kurdish mountains in West Asia and migrated into the Mesopotamia, Indus Valley and Arabia, belonged to R1a* and J2a...

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## Ike

> This is only a VERY speculative map about R1a1a1 and NOT about R1a*. the R1a* to which I do belong and which we can find in the Iranian Plateau predates any R1a1a1...


 I agree that is speculative, but that consequently makes your assumptions speculative².

While making that map, Maciamo decided to draw the start line at M417, which was probably for the lack of indicators where the ancestors could have been in a time before that. It is obvious that R1a emerged somewhere between Hg P (it's parent Hg) and M417 (it's descendant Hg). Hg P peaks around China today, but it doesn't mean it emerged there. Wiki says that Hg P is distributed commonly in Europe, Central Asia, North-East Asia, North America, South America, and possible region of origin os South-Central Asia, while for R417 we're guessing Ukraine.

1. It could be that P emerged in Mesopotamia, that R emerged at Iranian plateau, that R1b went to Europe through Anatolia, but R1a went around Caspian sea. R1a found IE speaking aliens at Pontic-Caspian steppe. Then was a back-migration of R1a towards Iran (and India) Majority of Iranian R1a are descendants of those IE speaking M417>Z93, but there is still a small sample (like <3 %) of old R1a/R1b in Iran which hadn't move anywhere. Note that I'm not claiming that it really happened like this.

2. "_Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian steppes, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which is why such high STR diversity is found within Balkanic R1a nowadays. It is not yet possible to determine the ethnic origin for each variety of R1a, apart from the fact that about any R1a is associated with tribes from Eurasian steppe at one point in history_."

Klysov uses data like this to place R1a origin at Balkans in like 9000 BC, but we all know it's very stretched theory, so we don't take it so serious.

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## skaheen15

Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?

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## Goga

> Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?


Not only Mittani (Matiene), but also Gutians, Kassites, Parthians, Medes etc. All those people were known as Umman Manda = Aryans (speakers of an *Iranic / proto-Kurdic* language) of the Near East. They lived in the Kurdish Mountains. But the thing is that the Sumerians do predate the Umman Manda. I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples). Notice that right after when Sumerians disappeard, the name of Umman Manda appears in the northern mountanious parts of the Near East. Sumerians that lived in Zagros Mountains became later Umman Manda. Sumerians that migrated into Arabia were later assimilated by the Semites..

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## skaheen15

> I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples).


You sure about that? You don't think that the Sumerians were basically absorbed by the later Mesopotamian populations?
They did live in a kind of symbiosis with the Akkadians, in a bi-lingual society, for centuries before finally disappearing.
I'm no expert on the Sumerians, but I don't see how they could be _ancestral_ to the Iranic peoples.

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## skaheen15

> the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.


Agreed, wouldn't make much sense. I've always suspected J2 or maybe T.

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## adamo

I agree with the Parthians being R1a but the Medes where iranic; Javan (Ionian Greeks) in the bible where classified with the Medes. Certainly an indo-Iranian people such as Parthians would explain the definitive and confirmed presence of R1a in eastern Iran. But then you make an error when trying to associate the general bulk of Kurds with these indo-Iranians, which is false, I believe they would have been mre similar (Kurds) to Medes for example. And then you go on to associate these indo-Europeans with the early Sumerians, which I believe to be false, regardless of the fact that the sumerians where great inventors (invented the wheel, for example) I remain convinced that the Sumerians were not indo-Europeans, as of now. Now what haplogroups did they belong to? Very difficult to tell; instinct says J1 , but this can't be because it apparently wasn't in the area at the time (although I personally still believe it's a possibility) probably weren't J2, maybe T, basal F branches, G? Who knows.

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## Dale Cooper

> As for the Dravidians, they are in no way characterized by y-DNA L (10%) having much more y-DNA H (35% on average). R1a is found in 50% of Indian males to most peoples surprise, with a peak towards the north of course where the indo-Aryan's would have settled.


This is true, also modern day Gypsies troughout Europe are mainly carriers of Y-DNA haplogroup H, isn't that right? Gypsies came from India/Pakistan area, and I would say they are descendants of Dravidians, ofcourse mixed in racial terms like almost all Indians today.




> Nobody can know at present to which haplogroups the Sumerians belonged without ancient Y-DNA tests. The population of Mesopotamia underwent perhaps more changes due to wars, conquests, diseases, etc. than almost any other population on Earth in the last 6000 years. Semitic people are mostly associated with haplogroups E-M123 and J1-P58. Nowadays J1-P58 is the most frequent haplogroup in southern Iraq, but I seriously doubt that it was present at all at the time of ancient Sumer. 
> 
> A few Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and include haplogroups L2a1, R, H14a, J1a1 and U4. The presence of hg L is surely a sign that E1b1b (probably E-M123) was already present among ancient Sumerians. Other Neolithic lineages like G, J2, R1b(xL23) and T are also likely. The presence of mtDNA U4 is, I believe, a sign that ancient Sumerians carried some R1 paternal lineages. It's unlikely that R1a had penetrated in Mesopotamia so early, so I would rather go for older subclades of R1b.


I would agree with this the most, out of all what has been written here about Sumerians :)

----------


## Dale Cooper

> Impossible. It's a well known fact that subclades of R1a* hg. in West Asia are older than in Europe. R1a entered Western-Eastern Europe from West Asia, like it's big brother hg. R1b did.



I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?

I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)

----------


## bicicleur

> I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?
> 
> I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)


I agree. I was very surprised when I saw this map here.
I can't find any logic to explain this.

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## Goga

> I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?
> 
> I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)


What don't you understand my friend? http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html Here you can find the ages of mutations that belong to a blue colored line. As you can see I do only belong to SRY10831.2- !! So my mutation falls only inside the blue line. That mutation occurred about *7500 - 8000* years ago. At that time R1a* was already present in Kurdistan! Kurgan peoples belonged to a much later mutations, like Z283 . Z283 is between *6000 - 7000* years old . As you can see my mutation PREDATES Kurgan types by *500 - 1000* years . Also, Iranic peoples in Central Asia and Iranian Plateau are mostly Z93, and even Z93 is older than Z283. Kurgan types were SRY10831.2*+ (plus)* and I'm SRY10831.2*- (min)* (M17-)! SRY10831.2*- (min)* mutation is older than SRY10831.2*+ (plus) ! 
SNP
age in years based on tree
age in years based on STR111 variability

M420
8000
8000

SRY10831.2
7798
7907

L664
4965
4375

Z645/Z647
6117
7294

Z283
5938
6751

M458
4625
3931

L260
3598
2411

CTS11962
4013
3069

L1029
4341
3078

Z280
5614
6050

Z92
4597
3996

CTS1211
5322
5381

P278
3719
2473

CTS3402
5046
4937

L366
3079
1038

L365
4095
2041

L1280
3281
2169

Z284
5063
4688

L448
4069
2857

CTS4179
3740
2212

L176
2956
1128

Z287/Z288
4908
4499

Z93
5989
6979

Z94
5795
6900

Z2121/Z2124
5322
5319

Z2122
4124
2457

Z2123
4781
3998

L657
4729
4131

Y7
3885
2197


*

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## Goga

> I agree with the Parthians being R1a but the Medes where iranic; Javan (Ionian Greeks) in the bible where classified with the Medes.


The Parthians, the Medes and Persians belonged to the same 'Aryan' race. They called themselves 'Aryans', and they were called by others 'Aryans'. The Medes were 'Western Iranians', the Persians were the 'Central Iranians' and Parthians were the 'Eastern Iranians'. Those peoples were descendants of the proto-Iranic Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites). In turn Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites) were descendants of the Sumerians. All those peoples were mostly J2a & R1a* (Caucasia & Gedrosia) folks ..

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## Dale Cooper

> What don't you understand my friend? http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html Here you can find the ages of mutations that belong to a blue colored line. As you can see I do only belong to SRY10831.2- !! So my mutation falls only inside the blue line. That mutation occurred about *7500 - 8000* years ago. At that time R1a* was already present in Kurdistan! Kurgan peoples belonged to a much later mutations, like Z283 . Z283 is between *6000 - 7000* years old . As you can see my mutation PREDATES Kurgan types by *500 - 1000* years . Also, Iranic peoples in Central Asia and Iranian Plateau are mostly Z93, and even Z93 is older than Z283. Kurgan types were SRY10831.2*+ (plus)* and I'm SRY10831.2*- (min)* (M17-)! SRY10831.2*- (min)* mutation is older than SRY10831.2*+ (plus) ! 
> age in years based on tree
> age in years based on STR111 variability
> 
> M420
> 8000
> 8000
> 
> SRY10831.2
> ...


But friend, what this map is showing would mean that R1a practically came from Middle East and Arabian peninsula? I would never suspect somethin like that, it's shocking to be honest if this is true :) Or did I misinterpreted the blue lines on that map, are they saying that R1a was "created" where? in Anatolia, or somewhere else? Or let me just ask you, where do you think R1a is created/occured for the first time as such? And also, before R1a, where do you think R1 occured first time? Thx

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## Goga

> But friend, what this map is showing would mean that R1a practically came from Middle East and Arabian peninsula? I would never suspect somethin like that, it's shocking to be honest if this is true :) Or did I misinterpreted the blue lines on that map, are they saying that R1a was "created" where? in Anatolia, or somewhere else? Or let me just ask you, where do you think R1a is created/occured for the first time as such? And also, before R1a, where do you think R1 occured first time? Thx


Original R1a* is NOT from Arabian Peninsula, mate! But most probably from the Iranian Plateau. That's why we can find R1a* from all sides of the Iranian Plateau. As we all know the ancestor of R1a* is R1*, and the ancestor of R1* is R*. R* is from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau. *R1a in Europe didn't fall from the sky*, lol. It came from somewhere. Some say it came directly form Central Asia. But other say that R1* first evolved into R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau and then migrated into Europe. The second school makes more sense because in Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains we find older subclades of R1a* than those in Europe.

The first 'R*' was Asian, the first 'R2*' was Asian, the first 'R1*' was Asian, the first R1b* was Asian, and the first carriers of R1a* were like R1b* 'Asian' and not from Europe. I'm sure that like R1b* also original R1a* came from the Iranian Plateau! Why is it difficult to accept that also R1a* like all other related haplogroups of R1a* came from Asia, most likely from the Iranian Plateau?

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## adamo

Because those older subclades may have migrated more easily and rapidly from the plains of Russia towards eastern Iran due to the region's general vicinity to the R1a* origin point.

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## Goga

Hunter-gatherers that lived in the Russian Steppes before 'R' were most likely Mongoloid N or Q. Russians and other people in that region are still partly Mongoloid! I don't understand what you're saying, but all other 'R' (R1*, R1b*, R2*) came from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the Russian plains. 'R*' itself was evolved out of 'P'. Why should R1a* be an exception? Doesn't make any sense to me, at all !!!

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## Dale Cooper

> Original R1a* is NOT from Arabian Peninsula, mate! But most probably from the Iranian Plateau. That's why we can find R1a* from all sides of the Iranian Plateau. As we all know the ancestor of R1a* is R1*, and the ancestor of R1* is R*. R* is from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau. *R1a in Europe didn't fall from the sky*, lol. It came from somewhere. Some say it came directly form Central Asia. But other say that R1* first evolved into R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau and then migrated into Europe. The second school makes more sense because in Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains we find older subclades of R1a* than those in Europe.
> 
> The first 'R*' was Asian, the first 'R2*' was Asian, the first 'R1*' was Asian, the first R1b* was Asian, and the first carriers of R1a* were like R1b* 'Asian' and not from Europe. I'm sure that like R1b* also original R1a* came from the Iranian Plateau! Why is it difficult to accept that also R1a* like all other related haplogroups of R1a* came from Asia, most likely from the Iranian Plateau?


But I always thought (and I still have that opinion) that R1a came to Iran and Afghanistan (once Persia) - Iranian Plateau with IndoEuropean migration (so called Aryan branch) 2500-3000 BC, who founded Andronovo Culture, which will later emerge Persian civilization, also from that area of Andronovo culture (Iranian Plateau) they invaded northern India around 1750 BC...

So if someone would ask where is the homeland of R1a, well... I would say today eastern Ukraine, southern European Russian, and somewhat to east from southern european russia, or to be more precise I will show the map:



So in my opinion... R1a homeland is where stands PIE on the map :)

So you see, I don't have any problem to accept that R1 came from Asia, that is a fact, but I'm sure that R1a came from this border-line of Europe and Asia, from proto-indoeuropeans, I really don't believe that R1a came as R1a from Iranian Plateau, but R1a came to Iranian Plateau from eastern Ukraine, Southern european Russia...

It's one thing to talk about R1, but it's another thing to talk about R1a, and I strongly believe R1a was not present in area of today Iran and Afghanistan before it came from proto-IndoEuropean homeland shown on this map.

Also to support this what Im saying here, here is the map of R1a distribution, it perfectly fits with History events shown on first map I shown...

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## Goga

These maps are misleading and they give you a very wrong image of the whole picture. First of all it's impossible that proto-indo Europeans came from Ukraine. This theory is destroyed and buried a long time ago. But then again it’s a different topic. And I spent hour on this issue on this forum, I’m not going to do it again.

Fact is that West Asian R1a* is *older* than R1a in Europe, you like it or not. R1a* to which I do belong came NOT from Europe, lol. This is *true* science and not a dream world. You're free to believe to whatever you want, even in Santa Clause, it's ok with me..

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## Alan

> The Parthians, the Medes and Persians belonged to the same 'Aryan' race. They called themselves 'Aryans', and they were called by others 'Aryans'. The Medes were 'Western Iranians', the Persians were the 'Central Iranians' and Parthians were the 'Eastern Iranians'. Those peoples were descendants of the proto-Iranic Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites). In turn Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites) were descendants of the Sumerians. All those peoples were mostly J2a & R1a* (Caucasia & Gedrosia) folks ..


You are mixing things a little bit too much up again.

Sumerians are not known of which origin they are. There is still absolutely no prove for an Indo European origin of them.

Persians were not Central Iranian but Southwest and Parthians were not East Iranians. You are mixing science again too much with your assumptions. 

The location of their homeland has not much to do with their origin. Parthians were basically Medes with more Scythian admixture. They started in North and Northeast Iran but spread rapidly all the way into Mesopotamia, Anatolia and Syria.

----------


## Alan

> Hunter-gatherers that lived in the Russian Steppes before 'R' were most likely Mongoloid N or Q. Russians and other people in that region are still partly Mongoloid! I don't understand what you're saying, but all other 'R' (R1*, R1b*, R2*) came from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the Russian plains. 'R*' itself was evolved out of 'P'. Why should R1a* be an exception? Doesn't make any sense to me, at all !!!


Slavs in general are the result of Balts crossing with Iranians. In Russian case you can add some Germanic into it.

Russians still are predominanlty West Eurasian with only some 3-4% East Eurasian admixture. Thats on the same level as Persians.

----------


## Goga

??? First of all I'm not saying that the Sumerians were Indo European, but I'm saying that the Sumerians were maybe related to proto-Indo Europeans. Also I'm not even sure if *R1a** was part of PIEans, maybe it was hg. *J2a* that was PIEan. According to me the probabilty that proto-Indo Europeans were actually J2a folks, but once again that's a different topic. According to me the Sumerians were J2a* & R1a* folks. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Persians lived between the Medes and the Parthians. Parthians lived in the eastern parts of the Iranian plateau, the Medes lived in the western parts of the Iranian Plateau = Zagros Mountains / Kurdistan and Persians lived in the middle. Are you denying that?

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## Goga

But the thing is that Parthians spoke almost the same language as the Medes, a Western Iranian language, closely related with Kurdish language

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## adamo

No. The early proto-indo-Europeans of the PIE region where strictly y-DNA R1 and it's derivatives; not J2a.

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## Ike

> These maps are misleading and they give you a very wrong image of the whole picture. First of all it's impossible that proto-indo Europeans came from Ukraine. This theory is destroyed and buried a long time ago. But then again it’s a different topic. And I spent hour on this issue on this forum, I’m not going to do it again.
> 
> Fact is that West Asian R1a* is *older* than R1a in Europe, you like it or not. R1a* to which I do belong came NOT from Europe, lol. This is *true* science and not a dream world. You're free to believe to whatever you want, even in Santa Clause, it's ok with me..


You still don't understand. Let's put it this way. Fact is that Afro-American's haplogroups are older the than ones of native Indians. Does that mean that black people were in America before Indians?

----------


## matbir

> No. The early proto-indo-Europeans of the PIE region where strictly y-DNA R1 and it's derivatives; not J2a.


Impossible, R1a and R1b are too old for PIE, they are about 18000 years old while IE language family is about 6000 years old. In my opinion spread of IE is connected to R1a1a1b (S224) or maybe to R1a1a1 (M417).
Sumerians most likely ware mix of haplogroups found today around that area. Middle East was crossing of migration roads for millennia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had J1, J2, G, T, R*, R1*, R1a, R1b, E, C, F*.

Interesting OT aroused about origin of R1a, I would gladly discuss this it in appropriate topic, but I haven’t time to start it, so I suggest moderators to move discussion about R1a to R1a section in order to continue debate.

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## Goga

> You still don't understand. Let's put it this way. Fact is that Afro-American's haplogroups are older the than ones of native Indians. Does that mean that black people were in America before Indians?


No, you don't get it! haplogroups of Aframs you can also find inside Africa. mtDNA of Aframs is from Africa and very common in Africa. (Y-DNA of Aframs is mostly Europe, but that's again a different topic.) But there's no R1a* in Eastern Europe to my knowledge. R1a in West Asia/Kurdistan is older. FACT, you like it or not...

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## Goga

> Impossible, R1a and R1b are too old for PIE, they are about 18000 years old while IE language family is about 6000 years old.


Exactly, this is what I'm telling them. R1a* is older than PIE language, but I believe that PIE is older than 6000 years. Sumerians and PIEans could have the same ancestors. PIE didn't came out of nowhere, they had also relatives, distant cousins, you know. R1a* is either from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau, that's for sure...

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## Ike

> Exactly, this is what I'm telling them. R1a* is older than PIE language, but I believe that PIE is older than 6000 years. Sumerians and PIEans could have the same ancestors. PIE didn't came out of nowhere, they had also relatives, distant cousins, you know. R1a* is either from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau, that's for sure...


Did you in fact read my post, or you're just continuing your rant regardless :)

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## Goga

You guys are continuing with this Santa Clause theories without any substantiated propositions and facts. I've got the feeling that I'm in defense, while in reality I'm providing more valid arguments than all your guys combined. IF you CLAIM something you have to underpin your CLAIMS otherwise it’s useless to discuss. R1a*, R1*, R* etc came never originally from Europe. *Even last glacial ice age in Europe, when Europe was mostly unlivable, empty and covered with ice is younger than hg. R1a**, lol.  :Smile:

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## Goga

Last glacial period in Europe ended only 12000 years ago. R1a* predate last glacial period in Europe by thousands of years!

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## Ike

You still don't understand, FFS. You are the one claiming something. You have to prove it. And DNA tests on people today don't prove anything about the people of the past.

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## Goga

You’re not really honest at this moment. How can I prove something for 100% when I don't have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians? As long as we don’t have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians, *nobody* can give 100% waterproof evidence. All I know is that the Sumerians entered Southern Mesopotamia from the mountains in north. Sumerians were NOT Semitic. Also, there're many cultural links between Kurds and the ancient Sumerians. Kurdish 'Iranic' calendar is derived from the Sumerian calendar. Even ancient Kurdish 'Iranic' religion is derived from the Sumerian mythology.

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## Ike

> You’re not really honest at this moment. How can I prove something for 100% when I don't have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians? As long as we don’t have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians, *nobody* can give 100% waterproof evidence.


 Exactly. Nobody. So there's no need for any of this. All these are just a good speculations. I don't know why you even bother trying to prove that your speculation is better than anyone else's. 





> All I know is that the Sumerians entered Southern Mesopotamia from the mountains in north. *Sumerians were NOT Semitic.* Also, there're many cultural links between Kurds and the ancient Sumerians. Kurdish 'Iranic' calendar is derived from the Sumerian calendar. Even ancient Kurdish 'Iranic' religion is derived from the Sumerian mythology.


 Good starting point. That could be resolved with minimal investments pretty soon with the help of Iraqi government, Institute of Archaeology and couple of labs.

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## Alan

> If I am not mistaken this sub clade is also found in Central Asia.



Well I seem to have been wrong in this point. According to Wikipedia at least, R1a* is not found in Central Asia.

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## Alan

> But the thing is that Parthians spoke almost the same language as the Medes, a Western Iranian language, closely related with Kurdish language


Exactly my point but this wasn't what you said at first. You said Parthians were Eastern Iranians. But I corrected you by saying they were basically Medes with more Scythian admixture. So if they were Medes they couldn't be East Iranians but Northwest Iranians.

The reason why it is so closely connected to Kurdish is because it is the intermediate state between Medic and Kurdish.

Parthians were basically a successors of the Medes with an early Scythian Elite (the Parni).

This wasn't the first time Medes came in contact with Scythians. This is why I wrote "*more* Scythian admixture". Even earlier they had the Royal Scythian marching into Media and ruling it for several decades. Also Cimmerians are attested in Media. The Medes were in frequent contact to Scythians.

Also I red somewhere that sources say the Medes were basically the Mitanni Elite who were forced out by the Assyrians.

----------


## Goga

And I wrote before that the Medes, Persians and Parthians were almost identical to each other. They came from the same source of ancestors, like 3 blood brothers from the same parents. They were the Umman Manda (Aryans) of the Iranian Plateau. And yeah, the direct ancetors (parents) of the Medes, Persians and Parthians were the Mitanni / Matiene. Mitanni succeeded Sumerians in Kurdistan. Mitanni were 'proto-Iranic' and not 'Vedic' at all like some ignorant folks claim.

----------


## MOESAN

> Are you trying to imply that there is no genetic continuity in the Sumer region since Sumerian times to now? They were a non-Semitic rare people's......what were they hg T,L,F? I personally doubt it; there must be genetic continuity in the region over the past 5,000-10,000 at the minimum.


yet linguisitcally it seems there were more than a strata in Sumer - I'm almost sure it occurred more than a tribe move in this region with time, as says Maciamo - some modifications in Culture seem come from North at that time, and surely more recently just the opposite: moves of semitic tribes from South - the first Y-J1 were surely based in the Zagros region and surroundings, not far, and they colonized the present days Arabia and other semitic countries perhaps at the depends of some early Y-E1b population, before giving birth to specific semitic downstreams of Y-J1 - so a partial continuity at big scale but not in the details, I think - for the autosomals aspect I suppose Sumerians had more 'west-asian' than today compared to 'south-west asian'

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## adamo

No, members here stated J1 was NOT present among the Sumerians and certainly J2 wasn't either, in the case of J1 it is hard to believe as Iraqi marsh Arabs have some 85% J1 (southern Iraq region). But apparently this was not present here during the Sumerian era. I guess the main contenders are T and L; I doubt G and E3b were there.

----------


## MOESAN

> No, members here stated J1 was NOT present among the Sumerians and certainly J2 wasn't either, in the case of J1 it is hard to believe as Iraqi marsh Arabs have some 85% J1 (southern Iraq region). But apparently this was not present here during the Sumerian era. I guess the main contenders are T and L; I doubt G and E3b were there.


_the number does not always the work even if it helps very often - I have no sound religion for now, just doing some tries to understand the today distribution - I never said Sumerians were ONLY Y-J people, but I think this Y-HG was already present among them, maybe come from close North. Y-T? Why not, maybe more in South - Y-L? very possible too (maybe more among the neighbours Elamites, and yet it is not sure)_ - _I shall not fight against you because I need more data to go into the competition -_

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## adamo

I also thought J1 was present among Sumerians but many here say otherwise. I doubt L was present in the region but T is more of a likely candidate.

----------


## Sile

> I also thought J1 was present among Sumerians but many here say otherwise. I doubt L was present in the region but T is more of a likely candidate.



correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt Maciano state that J1 and T1 where herder/hunters, originating from the zargos mountains moving south ward?
clearly L is more southern than T and E must have been in arabia at that time too.

The scenario to me is that J1 and T1 moved south and replaced ( partly) L and E. J1 went basically on the red sea side and T1 went on the persian gulf side. They both went into africa and madagscar. .......my scenario is based on thousands of years

If I had to name T1 as a tribe, its origin, it would be either Bactrian or Pathian. The elams seem more L to me .

----------


## Alan

> I also thought J1 was present among Sumerians but many here say otherwise. I doubt L was present in the region but T is more of a likely candidate.


If you actually red my comment correctly you would have seen no one dismissed J1* as Haplogroup present among Sumerians. But your explanation for your assumption about this Haplogroup among Sumerians was what I disagreed. You said "since Sumerians are Semites (what they aren't) they must had allot of J1*. But in reality it is much more likely allot of the J1* was given to Semites, through the Akkadians BY the Sumerians, who originated somewhere in North Mesopotamia/Zagros and moved into South Mesopotamia.

I clearly wrote in my post I assume LT* (includes yDNA T and L), J* (includes J1 and J2), G* as well some R* (includes R1a, R1b and R2) among them.

With my words I tried to say anything from the above Haplogroups are possible. Only on T* I was more sure.

----------


## Alan

> correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt Maciano state that J1 and T1 where herder/hunters, originating from the zargos mountains moving south ward?
> clearly L is more southern than T and E must have been in arabia at that time too.
> 
> The scenario to me is that J1 and T1 moved south and replaced ( partly) L and E. J1 went basically on the red sea side and T1 went on the persian gulf side. They both went into africa and madagscar. .......my scenario is based on thousands of years
> 
> If I had to name T1 as a tribe, its origin, it would be either Bactrian or Pathian. The elams seem more L to me .



L* which is the closest to T* likely had a Persian Gulf origin. It's highest diversity is also in and around Iran.

----------


## adamo

Sumerians were pre-Semites if I'm not mistaken. Wow, so L has highest diversity in Iran, what about T?

----------


## J1c3d

Hello, my origin is from the xinaliq village, Azerbaijan. But i'm J1c3d, close to marsh arabs. So i'm originally from the Mesopotamia Region? But my village is 2350 m high above the sea level. It can be that people of xinaliq descended to the mesopotamia?

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## John123

There is a small pocket near the Caucasus, in people such as Dargins, Avars and Lezgins that have high J1 frequencies (50-75%) but this is an exception as most of the northern Middle East (Fertile Crescent) is low in the Semitic j1 marker and higher in the Mesopotamian J2 marker. About 15% of Azerbaijani males are positive for the J1 marker. About 10% of Iranians, Turks and slightly lower frequencies for Armenians, are positive for it too. When we approach Iraq (the south in particular), Syria, Saudi Arabia, the frequencies for J1 can get very high (50+% of males) your particular sub-type of J1 is J1c3d.

some info on it: The expansion of Haplogroup J1c3d is closely tied to the expansion of the Semitic languages, they themselves both linked to the expansion of herder–hunters moving into the arid regions of the Arabian Peninsula.[1] Kitchen et al propose the divergence within Semitic languages occurred approximately 5750 years ago in the Levant[2], which is both consistent with J1c3d's age estimate and its parent clade's place of highest diversity.People of the Haplogroup J1c3 orginally possibly spoke a language similar to Alarodian derived languages. Semitic shows an interesting degree of relatedness with Nakho-Daghestani of Anatolia (including Turkey, Armenia, and Georgia) as Roy King has shown through his works[3], this language also could have hypothetically been involved in the formation of Afroasiatic as Haplogroup J1.
Some of its clades have been found in non-negligible frequency amongst Copts, Bejas and Guanches all of whom are non-Semitic Afroasiatic speakers while retaining the fact that African branches of Afroasiatic contain Caucasian and Sumerian loanwards, thus making another case for the lineage's Near Eastern origin.
Afroasiatic languages spread from the Levant into Africa between 7000 and 12,000 years ago, probably in more than one movement. Subsequent history has seen an enormous spread of Semitic languages, including Ethiopian Semitic and, of course, Arabic, on such a scale that the original phylogenetic geography of the Afroasiatic language family must have been considerably erased.[4]

----------


## John123

J1c3d is found in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman; it has a very Arabian peninsular distribution origin and is also found in the Canaan region. it's father J1c3 probably originated in southern Iraq

----------


## Alan

> There is a small pocket near the Caucasus, in people such as Dargins, Avars and Lezgins that have high J1 frequencies (50-75%) but this is an exception as most of the northern Middle East (Fertile Crescent) is low in the Semitic j1 marker and higher in the Mesopotamian J2 marker. About 15% of Azerbaijani males are positive for the J1 marker. About 10% of Iranians, Turks and slightly lower frequencies for Armenians, are positive for it too. When we approach Iraq (the south in particular), Syria, Saudi Arabia, the frequencies for J1 can get very high (50+% of males) your particular sub-type of J1 is J1c3d.


J1* is not semitic not even Proto-Afroasiatic. The J1 you are meaning is J1c3d and this is the only relevant Semitic subgroup all other have more significance in non Semite people.

----------


## Sile

> L* which is the closest to T* likely had a Persian Gulf origin. It's highest diversity is also in and around Iran.


I agree with your L statement and to follow up I regard T as north to northwest of L

----------


## skaheen15

> do sümerians anything do with Anatolians?if they have j2 like Anatolians they must be Anatolian immigrant who live mesopotamia.


J2 is believed to have originated somewhere in Mesopotamia, or maybe in the Levant, as far as I'm aware, not in Anatolia.
The fact that it's common in Anatolia does not mean that it originated there. The Sumerian identity very likely developed in Mesopotamia itself, and in any case their dominant Y-haplogroups are unknown. While Anatolia has a very important place in history, not every single middle eastern culture originated in Anatolia. You're barking up the wrong tree.

----------


## Alan

> Hello, my origin is from the xinaliq village, Azerbaijan. But i'm J1c3d, close to marsh arabs. So i'm originally from the Mesopotamia Region? But my village is 2350 m high above the sea level. It can be that people of xinaliq descended to the mesopotamia?



If you are J1c3*d* your yDNA is very likely semite. Either Mountain Jew, Arab or even Assyrian.





> J1c3d is found in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman; it has a very Arabian peninsular distribution origin and is also found in the Canaan region. it's father J1c3 probably originated in southern Iraq


Exactly this. J1c3d is only found in high frequency among Arabs, Jews etc namely the Semites. J1c3 on the other hand is probably Mesopotamian.

----------


## Alan

> J2 is believed to have originated somewhere in Mesopotamia, or maybe in the Levant, as far as I'm aware, not in Anatolia.
> The fact that it's common in Anatolia does not mean that it originated there. The Sumerian identity very likely developed in Mesopotamia itself, and in any case their dominant Y-haplogroups are unknown. While Anatolia has a very important place in history, not every single middle eastern culture originated in Anatolia. You're barking up the wrong tree.


Agreed, but it is unlikely to have originated in the Levant. With the recent testings and studies, an origin around the Zagros mountains appears very likely.

----------


## skaheen15

"an origin around the Zagros mountains appears very likely.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I hadn't heard that, in fact I'd like to see more on that if you could link me to a study or something.
It did _not_ originate in Anatolia, though.

----------


## Alan

> Fair enough, I hadn't heard that, in fact I'd like to see more on that if you could link me to a study or something.
> It did _not_ originate in Anatolia, though.



I remember to have red quite a few times the theory that it came from the Zagros mountains. According to new data this Haplogroup is absent in farmers, who likely originated in northwestern part of the fertile crescent (the Area between Levant, northern Mesopotamia and Anatolia), the parent or close cousin IJ* was found in Iran, additional the macro group of IJKLT is all connect to ANE/WHG ancestry, which once again makes it unlikely that J* evolved in the Levant which would have been more farmer like during that time.

Another reason is that J* is quite diverse/frequent around the Zagros mountains.

----------


## skaheen15

> the parent or close cousin IJ* was found in Iran


Now that's interesting.

----------


## Alan

> Now that's interesting.


Yes, thats indeed interesting. The first ever "IJ*" to be found. Grugni et al. 2012 is the study.

----------


## skaheen15

> Yes, thats indeed interesting. The first ever "IJ*" to be found. Grugni et al. 2012 is the study.


Thank you for that, I'm going to find that study and hope it's not behind a paywall. Fascinating.

----------


## Ike

> about zagros mountain. Turkish archaeologist found tablet in Anatolia. The Assyrians always attack Anatolians and people of zagros. Assyrians enslave those people. the archaeologist say people in anatolia and zagros mountain spoke similar language almost same! :))


 You have to give more data. Which two people have spoken the same language? When? What language? Who claims that? What tablets were found? What do they say? Pictures? Etc...

----------


## Alan

> You have to give more data. Which two people have spoken the same language? When? What language? Who claims that? What tablets were found? What do they say? Pictures? Etc...


Nothing new though, Anatolia and the Zagros was settled by Hurrian related/descend groups like the Lullubi for example, who were either Caucasic/Indo European or Isolated. Than there were the Gutians and Kassites, who were in my opinion Indo European and the ancestors (also according to some Greek and Iranian sources) , or at least related, to Mitanni and the Medes.

Something about the Kassite language



> The Kassite language has not been classified.[2] However, several Kassite leaders bore Indo-European names, and they might have had an Indo-European elite similar to the Mitanni.[7][8]


Not been classified means to me they weren't able to connect it to any modern language due to the scarcity of extant texts in the Kassite language. But I believe that they were Indo Europeans. That their leaders bore Indo European names speak for that hypothesis too.

I am pretty convinced that Kassites and Gutians from the Zagros mountains were related Indo_European tribes.

----------


## Sile

> Nothing new though, Anatolia and the Zagros was settled by Hurrian related/descend groups like the Lullubi for example, who were either Caucasic/Indo European or Isolated. Than there were the Gutians and Kassites, who were in my opinion Indo European and the ancestors (also according to some Greek and Iranian sources) , or at least related, to Mitanni and the Medes.
> 
> Something about the Kassite language
> 
> 
> Not been classified means to me they weren't able to connect it to any modern language due to the scarcity of extant texts in the Kassite language. But I believe that they were Indo Europeans. That their leaders bore Indo European names speak for that hypothesis too.
> 
> I am pretty convinced that Kassites and Gutians from the Zagros mountains were related Indo_European tribes.


Are these gutians related to the elamites ?

----------


## Pirro

Sumere are ancient people. But this word have significance in albanian language; sumere - does it mean shume here- or in english - a lot of time.

----------


## XipeTotek

They language come from asia. and similar like turkic languages so much. i think they must be Q or R1a hablogroup because turkic peoples and native americans come from Q hablogroup. but they are looking like(i talking about imagery and blue eyes statutes.) like R1a hablogroup. R1a hablogroup mostly have on Turkic peoples from altai mountain. (they say we are mountain peoples and coming from mountain.) altai meaning is altın altın is meaning gold.

and there is a reality about all european-asian nomadic peoples coming from central asia. Scythians,Turkics,Hungarians,Germans,Russians,Nati ve Americans,İndians and Englands. and i think maybe they have common language first. this is a asiatic language like a sumerian. and later aryans invade and change the language like a assyrians. (that is my theory because indo european aryan theory is not match with genetic hablogroups.)

(you have search about genetics you can see, native americans, turks, west europeans and east europeans come from common hablogroup = P and later Q, and R.)

they are later relationship with native semitic peoples. and looking like them like a turkey turks now. we have similar history.

exactly they language must be relevant ural, altai, korean, japanese or native american people. because west or east europeans language is very different from sumerian language. so if that is reality they are not semitic peoples. where they come from? only left few options. Uralic, Altaic, Korean, Japanese, Native Americans. Uralic option highest probability for me. and sumerians says we are kengirs and come from mountains. only 2 great mountains in central asia. Altai and Ural mountains.

(i don't say this is a reality only thinking.)

----------


## FIREYWOTAN

:Good Job: Thank you for sharing just what the scope of this period of time actually encompassed. Learning from history only so many times to see it repeated. Each of the players of the past find themselves living a self-fulfilling prophecy. I keep trying to understand how we keep running and circles but the need to find answers and solutions demands a deeper insight


*One of the first scholars to perform genetic studies was Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He used classical genetic markers to analyze DNA by proxy. This method studies differences in the frequencies of particular allelic traits, namely polymorphisms from proteins found within the human blood (such as the ABO blood groups, Rhesus blood antigens, HLA loci, immunoglobulins, G6PD isoenzymes, among others). Subsequently, his team calculated genetic distance between populations, based on the principle that two populations that share similar frequencies of a trait are more closely related than populations that have more divergent frequencies of the trait.**[*2] 



Serkan
Dogan
1
*
,
Cemal
Gurkan
2,3
,
Mustafa
Dogan
1
,
Hasan
Emin
Balkaya
1
,
Ramazan
Tunc
1
,
Damla
Kanliada
Demirdov
2
,
Nihad
Ahmed
Ameen
4
,
Damir
Marjanovic
1,5
1
Department
of
Genetics
and
Bioenginee
ring,
International
Burch
University
,
Sarajevo,
Bosnia
and
Herzegov
ina,
2
Turkish
Cypriot
DNA
Laborat
ory,
Committe
e
on
Missing
Persons
in
Cyprus
Turkish
Cypriot
Member
Office,
Nicosia
(North
Cyprus
),
Turkey,
3
Dr.
Fazıl
Ku
»
c
À
u
»
k
Faculty
of
Medicine,
Eastern
Mediterr
anean
University,
Famagus
ta
(North
Cyprus
),
Turkey,
4
Departm
ent
of
Biology,
College
of
Educatio
n,
University
of
Salahaddin
,
Erbil,
Iraq,
5
Institute
for
Anthropolo
gical
Research,
Zagreb,
Croati

----------


## XipeTotek

Sumerians must be q hablogroup

----------


## XipeTotek

i think they may be r1a but their language different from indo european language. and we see today they language have similarity and more close to with native american/turkic/altai/japanese/ural languages. and native americans doing migration 15.000 years ago from siberia with bering to america. how is possible? i think about they are related with altai/turkic/native american people. and they are main hablogroup are q. but altai peoples mostly r1a today. (higher on the world.) i think they could be 2 hablogroup related r1a and q. if you look at language too. they must be q hablogroup and come from altai mountain. (golden mountain)
and they have common myths (aztecs, mayans, sumerians, also tibet) flood myth like a noah myth. i think lost continent mu is possible. because in the pacific ocean have hawaii mauris i cant believe how they live in there. i can see when i look at pacific there could be most bigger continent

----------


## XipeTotek

guys totally wrong for explain sumerians with focused indo european peoples.

in the turkey we come from central asians turks but we dont have connected genetic so much with them. so sumerians country invaded by other messopotamian/middle eastern peoples.

and you must be know sumerians are not indo european. their language close to turkic languages. (sad but true)

if you wanna see who is real first sumerians you must be look at turks and native americans

----------


## johen

> guys totally wrong for explain sumerians with focused indo european peoples.
> 
> in the turkey we come from central asians turks but we dont have connected genetic so much with them. so sumerians country invaded by other messopotamian/middle eastern peoples.
> 
> and you must be know sumerians are not indo european. their language close to turkic languages. (sad but true)
> 
> if you wanna see who is real first sumerians you must be look at *turks and native americans*


Is it your personal opinion to connect turks to native americans or major opinion in turkey now?
As far as I know, turkish people dislike to do ancient turk to american indian in forum.

Anthropologically chandman, late bronze people in mongol altai, was an ancestor to east Hun turk and mongol turk. East Hun people have R1a-z93 and Q1a2. If you traces R1a-93 and Q1a2 in bronze age, you will meet two different mayan pyramids in two civilization. 
According to Dr. C Loring Brace, the chandman ties with black foot indian and UP people. I think okunevo people is the same type of UP people, who are the direct descendant of malta boy.

----------


## XipeTotek

> Is it your personal opinion to connect turks to native americans or major opinion in turkey now?
> As far as I know, turkish people dislike to do ancient turk to american indian in forum.
> 
> Anthropologically chandman, late bronze people in mongol altai, was an ancestor to east Hun turk and mongol turk. East Hun people have R1a-z93 and Q1a2. If you traces R1a-93 and Q1a2 in bronze age, you will meet two different mayan pyramids in two civilization. 
> According to Dr. C Loring Brace, the chandman ties with black foot indian and UP people. I think okunevo people is the same type of UP people, who are the direct descendant of malta boy.


nope. this is a reality opinion from scientists. 

https://dnaconsultants.com/american-...deep-ancestry/

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...icas-dna-shows

https://www.rbth.com/science_and_tec...cousins_569517

we are come from same ancestors from q hablogroup. and i think language too (very similar)

and you can watch this documentary from created by national gheographic's opinion.

also sumerian connected with altai/turkic languages theory have some scientist opinion like this. 




so you can see this is a not opinion. this is a science.

i clearly see how is first turkic peoples are for looking like at native americans. they are very similar culture and beliefs.

i respect for them life struggle. (siberia,canada,eskimos,and native americans.) very hard areas for living.
but so sad for ending of their history.

i think our ancestors living in siberian forests and some people going to canada and america. others go to central asia and relationship with iranians and mongol peoples. and turks created/borned with that relationship (Scythians,Hunnic Empire,Gokturks, Seljuks our history contunie like this)

----------


## johen

> also *sumerian* connected with altai/turkic languages theory have some scientist opinion like this.


Modern altai people still have a same type of wresting as sumerian did. you can find it by googling the word of "sumerian wrestling."

by the way, do you have any information about sumerian skull type?

----------


## XipeTotek

> Modern altai people still have a same type of wresting as sumerian did. you can find it by googling the word of "sumerian wrestling."
> 
> by the way, do you have any information about sumerian skull type?


no, i dont know anything about skull type of sumerians. but i did see somethings about news ; sumerian genetics close to marsh arabs (i think this is could be about relationship with akkadians)

and i know this wrestling. we know this is a our ancestor sport. and still doing in turkey.

i think about sumerian's peoples genetic history like us(turkey turks.) they going relationship others, far away and lost their own genetics and invaded by middle eastern/indo european peoples.

----------


## johen

> no, i dont know anything about skull. but i did see somethings about news sumerian genetics close to marsh arabs
> 
> and i know this wrestling. we know this is a our ancestor sport. and still doing in turkey


There is american Indian gene of *b* in modern Iran. I don't know how to get it, but just consider it

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

jar nal! (good day)

----------


## XipeTotek

> There is american Indian gene of *b* in modern Iran. I don't know how to get it, but just consider it
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912
> 
> jar nal! (good day)


this is possible. because in modern iran have so much azeri turks(15 or 30 million.)

damiq ud ( jaqsı kün )

----------


## johen

> this is possible. because in modern iran have so much *azeri turks*(15 or 30 million.)


maybe, but the pie in Iran has farmer and american indian, not having siberian.

----------


## XipeTotek

> maybe, but the pie in Iran has farmer and american indian, not having siberian.


this is interesting. and sumerians have connection with turkmenistan area. (i see something about news tablets or stones founding in there i dont know.)

other one in turkmenistan/kırgızistan, and other close to iraq center of sumerians.

they ancestors must be first sumerian farmers and come from amerindians.

in the tablets write about sumerians look like a dark skin and dark heads with sloped eyes. its compatible with native americans.

Forensic archaeologist Jane Shuter studied several Sumerian burial grounds that contained skeletons. According to her, Sumerians were short and solid. They had thin lips, straight thin noses, and eyes that sloped downward. Shuter and other archaeologists suggest that Sumerians were dark-skinned, dark-eyed and dark-haired. Sumerians also referred to themselves as “the dark-haired people.”

----------


## Ygorcs

> There is american Indian gene of *b* in modern Iran. I don't know how to get it, but just consider it
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912
> 
> jar nal! (good day)


As I understood it the admixture graphs are related to ancient populations. The "American" admixture most clearly corresponds to what most scientists call ANE, Ancient North Eurasian. It fits perfectly with the fact that the early Iranian farmers had a good chunk of a ANE or ANE-like admixture mixed with Basal Eurasians. Native Americans also had ANE admixture, but not just that, actually it is in the minority (~30%), while the rest comes from an East Asian source. So I think the labels of the admixtures can't be read literally. "American" detects an ancient North Eurasian ancestry that contributed to both West Eurasians, North Asians and Native Americans.

----------


## XipeTotek

Attachment 9909

Attachment 9910

Attachment 9911



Attachment 9912


Attachment 9914

d879571e43440becac71494fe0b5f175.jpg

mayaking.jpg

thats nose type looking similar to me

https://www.dkfindout.com/uk/history...mia/ziggurats/

32487-ziggurat-mesopotamia[1].jpg

maya-pyrami_1024.jpg

----------


## MOESAN

This late tableau of two ways orientations is a bit weird to me - it gaves an oversimplified and mistaking picture of reality -

----------


## XipeTotek

> This late tableau of two ways orientations is a bit weird to me - it gaves an oversimplified and mistaking picture of reality -


i think they are not sumerian they are akkadian. also sumerians and semitic peoples have relationship.

so you cant say original turks are hairy. they came from central asia. but today in turkey we are so much hairy. its doing in 1000 years. sumerians so many years mixed with akkadians.

----------


## suyindik

> i think they are not sumerian they are akkadian. also sumerians and semitic peoples have relationship.
> 
> so you cant say original turks are hairy. they came from central asia. but today in turkey we are so much hairy. its doing in 1000 years. sumerians so many years mixed with akkadians.


aton.ttu.edu Bahaeddin_Ogel.asp

*Description of Oğuz Kağan in the Oğuz Kağan Epic:*

Bir insan idi fakat, tüyleri dolu idi(*He was a human, but he was hairy*),
Vücudu kıllı idi, çok uzun boylu idi(*His body was hairy, he was very tall*).
Güder at sürüleri, tutar, atlara biner,
Daha bu yaşta iken, çıkar, avlara gider.
Geceler günler geçti, nice seneler doldu.
Oguz da büyüyerek, bir yahşi yiğit oldu!

----------


## halfalp

Not sure if Q1a2 is a central asian or even siberian lineage, it looks very linked with eastern european R1b and migrate with them to found Afanasievo. Looks more like turkish people who replaced tocharians take that lineage with them. Turko-Mongols must have mostly be C2 and other clades of Q.

----------


## firetown

> Not sure if Q1a2 is a central asian or even siberian lineage,


It is. Among isolated tribes such as the Dayak people in Indonesia and parts of Northern Thailand. the "Q people" are also the ancestors of most native American tribes. And another thing they have in common: tribes exclusively from that line tend to be 100 percent blood group O positive.

In Sumer however, rh negative blood was present.

----------


## MOESAN

> It is. Among isolated tribes such as the Dayak people in Indonesia and parts of Northern Thailand. the "Q people" are also the ancestors of most native American tribes. And another thing they have in common: tribes exclusively from that line tend to be 100 percent blood group O positive.
> 
> In Sumer however, rh negative blood was present.


blood groups are not too informative markers taken under these forms; it could be better to have the subgroups + rhesus groups, not only O, A or B -
the same for Y-Q haplo: very broadly spred and not too informative under this rough form -
no offense

----------


## firetown

> it could be better to have the subgroups + rhesus groups,


that is exactly what I am saying. R1b y-DNA carriers these days carry some of the largest amounts of rh negatives. If the original natives of the Americas carried r1b, how do you explain the complete absence of rh- blood?

----------


## halfalp

> It is. Among isolated tribes such as the Dayak people in Indonesia and parts of Northern Thailand. the "Q people" are also the ancestors of most native American tribes. And another thing they have in common: tribes exclusively from that line tend to be 100 percent blood group O positive.
> 
> In Sumer however, rh negative blood was present.


I was talking about the specific Q1a2, not the haplogroup Q in general. Q1a2 is found in mesolithic Latvia and Chalcolithic Khvalynsk alongside Afanasevo. It would be crazy that the same subclade would be found in baltic mesolithic and modern indonesia.

----------


## firetown

> I was talking about the specific Q1a2, not the haplogroup Q in general. Q1a2 is found in mesolithic Latvia and Chalcolithic Khvalynsk alongside Afanasevo. It would be crazy that the same subclade would be found in baltic mesolithic and modern indonesia.


I was not aware of that one and I find limited data on it. None on Latvia, but loads on Afghanistan. Of course, the mongols come to mind. How about frequencies in Hungary and Finland?

----------


## halfalp

> I was not aware of that one and I find limited data on it. None on Latvia, but loads on Afghanistan. Of course, the mongols come to mind. How about frequencies in Hungary and Finland?


Sorry, the Khvalynsk individual is only Q1a with mtdna U4a2, it was from the paper " Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe " from Iain Mathieson et al. The Q1a2 of mesolithic baltic was from the paper " The neolithic transition in the baltic was not driven by admixture with early european farmers ". I also believe if i'm not wrong that Q1a and or Q1a2 is found in modern Scandinavia without any recent siberian or native american input.

----------


## firetown

A 4,000 year old Paleo-Eskimo in Greenland was Q1a:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08835

----------


## halfalp

> A 4,000 year old Paleo-Eskimo in Greenland was Q1a:
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08835


Yes it seems a very widespread marker in all north eurasia / america.

----------


## firetown

But Goetaland in Southern Sweden shows up for 5 percent of y-DNA being just that. Why?

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

How do we explain Swastikas in pre-Sumerian and Sumerian-era Mesopotamia? Even in clearly non-IE cultures nearby, like with the Phoenicians (much later) we often see Swastikas. Yet it (the Swastika) seems to originate from the Balkans/Ukraine. It would be a bit odd if all these Swastikas didn’t have anything to do with the Indo-Europeans...
I think Maciamo’s long-standing theory is spot on to be honest, and it also matches what Reich has been saying recently. 
R1b crossed the Caucasus into the PC Steppe as the IE culture-bearers.
The only question I really have is why R1b seems to be so associated with Gedrosian admixture, if it spread from the Balkans (and not Iran) into West Asia. I mean, the Irish have roughly the same amount of Gedrosian as Armenians...

----------


## halfalp

> How do we explain Swastikas in pre-Sumerian and Sumerian-era Mesopotamia? Even in clearly non-IE cultures nearby, like with the Phoenicians (much later) we often see Swastikas. Yet it (the Swastika) seems to originate from the Balkans/Ukraine. It would be a bit odd if all these Swastikas didn’t have anything to do with the Indo-Europeans...
> I think Maciamo’s long-standing theory is spot on to be honest, and it also matches what Reich has been saying recently. 
> R1b crossed the Caucasus into the PC Steppe as the IE culture-bearers.
> The only question I really have is why R1b seems to be so associated with Gedrosian admixture, if it spread from the Balkans (and not Iran) into West Asia. I mean, the Irish have roughly the same amount of Gedrosian as Armenians...


There is Swastikas all over eurasia in the paleolithic. That's not a specific middle-eastern symbolic sign.

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

> There is Swastikas all over eurasia in the paleolithic. That's not a specific middle-eastern symbolic sign.


Yup, R1 tribes were mammoth hunters, so they roamed a wide expanse. R1b was probably intrusive into the Middle East, but mainly developed there. I think.

----------


## MOESAN

Rhesus is only one marker for blood which countains a lot of others - by the way some markers are linked to very selective genes and mesologic causes can make it vary quickly in some places? concerning Y-R1b among native Amerindians (of North) it seems its still subejct of debates... I cannot say more to date.

----------


## MOESAN

I thought in this possibility: a Groenland origin among Scandinavians; but it concerns more Danes than Swedes, whose viking "trade" was rather centered on Eastern Europe; someones proposed a Turkic (Hunnic) element, send home by coming back Goths. I cannot answer, some ancient and current DNA with deep subclades could help. And the today presence in Eastern France in anciently Burgundian ruled lands seems having preceded the Gorenland conquest by Vikings...

----------


## MOESAN

'gedrosian' concerns a modern pop of Western Asia; this pop has surely more than a "parent" or/and have underwent a bit of dirft since old times - 'gedrosia' (a part of it) is found in anDNA of Russia at Paleolithic times, so having SOME KIND OF 'gedrosia' "modern" component is not the proof of a too southern origin; what is important is the LACK of 'georgian' in N-W Europe pops (Germanics, Celts) compared to southeastern pops - 
without knowing more to date I think it is possible that the 'gedrosia' component in N-Europe came from Steppes, not by force accross Caucasus or Anatolia - everything seems showing that a southern road would have send more 'georgian' -
by the way, a possible remote Carpathian origin of some Y-R1b involved in IE colonization does not imply these first ones would have had 'gedrosia' at the beginning; it seems (see metric anthropo and DNA that maybe since the 4000's BCA central and east Europeans fared very far eastwards -

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

> I expect to see R1b, R2, G, J, and T.


J and R1b mainly agreed - I suspect more J(2, and some 1) though.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> No. If you go back far enough far in time every haplogroup is intrusive to somewhere. The parental haplogroup P of R1/2 and Q likely evolved in Southeast Asia. In so far your example is bogus. The defining marker of R1b (M343) happened in the Near East. I actually do not know from where Maciamo got the information that R1 people were Mammoth hunters during the Pleistocene.


Well I believe it's based from Mal'ta. But the oldest Swastika is also carved into some mammoth tusk or something like that. Plus it explains why the super basal forms of R1b and I think R1a too are found all across Eurasia

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## XipeTotek

Attachment 10186

i think they are mixed with q(turkic,native american,siberian) and r1a(proto-europeans of central asia) hablogroups. and their language more close to turkic/native american languages.

look at marsch arabs genetic map. only different(not native that area.) are q and r1a. they language says to us they come from asia. 

i think they come from central asia. and they are caucasoid/mongoloid like turks.

also they language close to turkic/native american languages. not indo-european




http://www.turkishculture.org/litera...ricans-459.htm

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## Sile

> Attachment 10186
> 
> i think they are mixed with q(turkic,native american,siberian) and r1a(proto-europeans of central asia) hablogroups. and their language more close to turkic/native american languages.
> 
> look at marsch arabs genetic map. only different(not native that area.) are q and r1a. they language says to us they come from asia. 
> 
> i think they come from central asia. and they are caucasoid/mongoloid like turks.
> 
> also they language close to turkic/native american languages. not indo-european
> ...


This might be due to ancient migrations from north syrian direction towards the persian gulf ( the gulf was also once a river only until the "great flood")

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## XipeTotek

> This might be due to ancient migrations from north syrian direction towards the persian gulf ( the gulf was also once a river only until the "great flood")


i believe that lost continent mu theory

Attachment 10188

Attachment 10189

Attachment 10190

i have curiosity about hawaii native peoples how live on there. and how they go. i think this theory is real and sumerian people come from there

and this is explain to me why native americans and sumerians have some similarity in language and beliefs

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## Celtic warrior

I think some G must be found because people with haplogroup G (Y DNA) spoke an ergative language that is the common ancestor of Basque, Sumerian, Georgian and other Caucasian languages. The "Urheimat" of these languages is probably the Caucasus and the surrounding area, from where the people moved south to Mesopotamia. (See the Sumerian mythology about the origin in mountains.)

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