# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Haplogroup T

## Sprinkles

Is this why Ethiopians don't look as black as pure Africans - high cheek bones (mongoloid characteristic).

High percentages in northern Italy and Sicily. Must have crossed into Europe in Sicily and southern Iberian peninsula. 

I also question whether E-V13 took this same route through Tunisia into Italy, as well as through Anatolia into Greece.

I don't see how the diffusion would have occured from Italy to Nothern Afirca since either this haplogroup crossed into Spain, to italy, to northern africa again, or crossed in both locations (Morocco, Tunisia) into europe.

If it did cross in both Morocco and Tunisia, Tunisia may be an explanation for E-V13 from Tunisia to Sicily, to Albania.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...T_Y-DNA_II.svg

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## Ferreiro_

I've always been intrigued with this haplogroup, because it is very rare in Europe. 
The highest concentrations in Europe are given in the Spanish island of Ibiza, with almost 17%!!! Then in Andalusia with 6%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

It is believed that it was originated in the Middle East and was brought to Spain by the Phoenicians, as Ibiza was colonized by Phoenicians. Anyway, I guess now some compatriot will come to tell that is not true, that its origin is European and was led to Middel East by people from Ibiza. But we're used to reading the same thing again and again.

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## Knovas

Eupidia show quite different frequencies of this haplogroup in Europe. The map showed in wikipedia is completely absurd, just looking at the frequencies showed near Central Europe it's easy to notice. Also, Africa is incomplete since Cameroon is not represented, and a large etc.

Eupidia is by far more reliable.

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## Drac

> I've always been intrigued with this haplogroup, because it is very rare in Europe. 
> The highest concentrations in Europe are given in the Spanish island of Ibiza, with almost 17%!!! Then in Andalusia with 6%.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups
> 
> It is believed that it was originated in the Middle East and was brought to Spain by the Phoenicians, as Ibiza was colonized by Phoenicians. Anyway, I guess now some compatriot will come to tell that is not true, that its origin is European and was led to Middel East by people from Ibiza. But we're used to reading the same thing again and again.


 
I am glad that you are "intrigued" about it, because it actually happens to occur at higher frequencies among the Italians you desperately try to defend than the Spaniards you stupidly keep trying to attack:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA)

Like I said before, stop worrying so much about Spaniards and start worrying about your Italian people.

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## Knovas

It's really curious that he only talks about Spaniards seeing higher frequencies in other parts of Europe, specially near Central Europe. Of course, as I said, the map is completely wrong. Just note the fact he only uses the information (wrong or not) at his convenience.

No credibility at all.

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## Ferreiro_

> It's really curious that he only talks about Spaniards seeing higher frequencies in other parts of Europe, specially near Central Europe. Of course, as I said, the map is completely wrong. Just note the fact he only uses the information (wrong or not) at his convenience.
> 
> No credibility at all.


 
I regret that the scientific report was not to your liking. By the way, I am not the author of the report. And I did not put that map!!! Again you are so ignorant!!!

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## Knovas

You are not the author, but perhaps you are so stupid to give credibility to something you can compare here in Eupidia, and see by yourself the kind of nonsense it is.

But the truth is that you know it perfectly, but prefer to show you didn't just to continue with your Ibero-Phobic agenda, your real and unique purpose.

Why do you continue since you can check Eupidia and see that Wikipedia isn't reliable for this so? You are showing with your personal effort what you really are, trolleiro ;)

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## Ferreiro_

> You are not the author, but perhaps you are so stupid to give credibility to something you can compare here in Eupidia, and see by yourself the kind of nonsense it is.
> 
> But the truth is that you know it perfectly, but prefer to show you didn't just to continue with your Ibero-Phobic agenda, your real and unique purpose.
> 
> Why do you continue since you can check Eupidia and see that Wikipedia isn't reliable for this so? You are showing with your personal effort what you really are, trolleiro ;)


Learn to read!
I have not said anything about that map, neither for nor against.
As for the percentage of 17% of Ibiza, the data is scientific. If you do not believe it, it's your problem, ignorant!

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## Knovas

It's not only for the map, the % are from Wikipedia (the same as the wrong map) and you can perfectly see the difference comparing with Eupidia. Look how Enthusiastic you were posting: oh! Andalusia 6%! XD, while checking Eupidia the score is just 3%.

Do you like The global Italian score of haplogroup T? And what about Sicily? It looks so good when you check Eupidia!  :Laughing: 

It's bad you still saying anything about this, and focus only in Spaniards. Sorry, but you can't fool anyone here since everybody knows your intentions. You are obsessed, absolutly brain damaged.

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## Ferreiro_

> It's not only for the map, the % are from Wikipedia (the same as the wrong map) and you can perfectly see the difference comparing with Eupidia. Look how Enthusiastic you were posting: oh! Andalusia 6%! XD, while checking Eupidia the score is just 3%.
> 
> Do you like The global Italian score of haplogroup T? And what about Sicily? It looks so good when you check Eupidia! 
> 
> It's bad you still saying anything about this, and focus only in Spaniards. Sorry, but you can't fool anyone here since everybody knows your intentions. You are obsessed, absolutly brain damaged.


I repeat the same: 17% from Ibiza is a scientific data, and not mine!!! 
I do not know the percentage in Sicily, as the link that I put it doesn't say it. If you know what percentage in sicily is, you share it with us!
Now you can keep hitting your head against the wall. It's not my fault.

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## Knovas

You don't know how to check Eupidia trolleiro? Do you think we are stupid or what? Insane! XD

You can't deny this anymore. Mentioning Ibiza is not bad, but Andalusia is very suspicious since there isn't there not much haplogroup T for being remarkable. You could mention lot's of places before, but not, comming for you is imposible to expect this, like is imposible to expect you get the proper information, and not the one you need to follow your pathologic agenda.

Go away to the emergency.

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## Ferreiro_

> I repeat the same: 17% from Ibiza is a scientific data, and not mine!!! 
> I do not know the percentage in Sicily, as the link that I put it doesn't say it. If you know what percentage in sicily is, you share it with us!
> Now you can keep hitting your head against the wall. It's not my fault.


I have to rectify because the data for Sicily does appear: 5% in East Sicily and 3% in West Sicily. How terrible it must be for you, Canovas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

Knovas, again you prove to be an ignorant man.

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## Ferreiro_

This is the list ordered from highest to lowest (green rectangle). Some samples (on the right of the green rectangle) are small and the percentages will be modified in the future, but the data of Ibiza is awesome.
I am not racist, so these rare mixtures are very attractive to me.
The problem with this haplogroup T is yours.

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## Knovas

You are the only who prove his own ignorance checking not reliable information again, since several averages (for example your loved Andalusians) are wrong.

Well, It's your choice. You can remain clueless for life if you want.

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## Ferreiro_

> You are the only who prove his own ignorance checking not reliable information again, since several averages (for example your loved Andalusians) are wrong.
> 
> Well, It's your choice. You can remain clueless for life if you want.


It's not my choice, it's a scientific choice. 
I'm sorry for you.

In my opinion anyone who does not accept the scientific results should not participate in a forum on Y-DNA.

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## Knovas

Then, you are late closing your account XD

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## Ferreiro_

> Then, you are late closing your account XD


 :Laughing:  Poor man.

Here we have another file, from Wikipedia too. Some samples are very small, careful with that.

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## Drac

> Poor man.
> 
> Here we have another file, from Wikipedia too. Some samples are very small, careful with that.


Even when considering the larger (100+) samples, Italians still have more of it. Nice way of shooting yourself in the foot, t-r-o-l-l.

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## Knovas

And now check here and realise that haplogroup T is not significant in Spain and Andalusians: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Come on guy, you have work now observing other places with more significant presence of haplogroup T. Learn a little ;)

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## Canek

No offense to Maciamo. But wikipedia is more reliable than this website. Ferreiro made a great point as always.  :Good Job: 

This site is only managed by Maciamo, while wikipedia is managed by a lot of recognized genetists.

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## sparkey

> And now check here and realise that haplogroup T is not significant in Spain and Andalusians: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
> 
> Come on guy, you have work now observing other places with more significant presence of haplogroup T. Learn a little ;)


 If we assume that T is Phoenician, I think that is maybe a little unexpected. Wasn't there significant Phoenician settlement in Spain, compared to the absurdly high T in Estonia (3.5%), which should have little? Perhaps that reflects odd sample sizes... I wish Maciamo would make his sources clearer, although they're usually decent estimates.

Also, Maciamo's tables are for T+L... it may be useful to separate those.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> And now check here and realise that haplogroup T is not significant in Spain and Andalusians: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
> 
> Come on guy, you have work now observing other places with more significant presence of haplogroup T. Learn a little ;)


2.5% (T + L) in both Spain and Portugal. Let's assume that T makes up half of the category, so we are essentially dealing with ~ 1.25% for Iberia in total. And we are talking about haplogroups, which have no effect on phenotype. What a sick agenda the faux Galego has. 

Even the Alcase region of France has 5% of T + L.

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## Knovas

The peculiarity of T is that is quite old in origin, more than 30.000 years. So it wasn't difficult to find it in Asia a long time ago and, of course, it seems that finally entered Northern Europe. Not all T's did, but the most probable explanation for Estonia is this. Some clades are more related to Africa or the Middle/east, and I supose there would be others related to Asia and Europe, but I don't know much about it.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> The peculiarity of T is that is quite old in origin, more than 30.000 years. So it wasn't difficult to find it in Asia a long time ago and, of course, it seems that finally entered Northern Europe. Not all T's did, but the most probable explanation for Estonia is this. Some clades are more related to Africa or the Middle/east, and I supose there would be others related to Asia and Europe, but I don't know much about it.


Good post. Something worth investigating.

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## Knovas

According to Eupidia T is one of the most ancient haplogroups found in Eurasia, so there is really no better explanation for Estonia. The missing information is about the subclades, I don't know if there are subclades originated in Europe (I just figured) and, in case of existance, wich ones.

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## Drac

> No offense to Maciamo. But wikipedia is more reliable than this website. Ferreiro made a great point as always. 
> 
> This site is only managed by Maciamo, while wikipedia is managed by a lot of recognized genetists.


It's the other way around. WikiPedia is a "public encyclopedia". There are no "recognized geneticists" there writing articles at all. All articles are written by amateurs from the general public. Any clown with an agenda (like you) can waltz in and write and/or alter any article at his whim and fancy. Thus the quality of any given WikiPedia article varies greatly. Some are pretty well researched and written, others (the majority) are crap.

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## Knovas

Subclades of T, if it could be useful: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> It's the other way around. WikiPedia is a "public encyclopedia". There are no "recognized geneticists" there writing articles at all. All articles are written by amateurs from the general public. Any clown with an agenda (like you) can waltz in and write and/or alter any article at his whim and fancy. Thus the quality of any given WikiPedia article varies greatly. Some are pretty well researched and written, others (the majority) are crap.


In fact, the moderators responsible for the Wikipedia Spanish and Portuguese people sections are clearly racist. They frame research information to make it seem that Iberians have large amounts of extra-European genetic influences - outrageously untrue. They even erase autosomal DNA studies, since these demonstrate that both peoples have exceedingly high European genetic affinities; Spain ~ 91% and Portugal ~ 85-86%, going by the latest updates.

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## Drac

> In fact, the moderators responsible for the Wikipedia Spanish and Portuguese people sections are clearly racist. They frame research information to make it seem that Iberians have large amounts of extra-European genetic influences - outrageously untrue. They even erase autosomal DNA studies, since these demonstrate that both peoples have exceedingly high European genetic affinities; Spain ~ 91% and Portugal ~ 85-86%, going by the latest updates.


Yes, indeed, and this fake-Galician Italian clown is in fact a WikiPedia Vandal that goes by the name of "Galician77". He goes around altering WikiPedia articles in order to make the casual reader (whom we all know does not bother to check with other sources) think that Spain is some sort of extension of Morocco in Europe, while at the same time he tries to lower and minimize any of these Middle Eastern and North African haplogroups in Italy, which this self-hating racist hypocrite buffoon with a massive inferiority complex obviously thinks are a "blemish" on his Italian ancestral land. You can see him in action here, altering passages and percentages in the article about E1b1b that he keeps dishonestly presenting here as some sort of "authority":

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=436450507


Notice some examples that once again show his idiotic & blatant anti-Spanish & pro-Italian agendas. This, for example:
　
The E1b1b clade is presently found in various forms in the [[Horn of Africa]], [[North Africa]], parts of [[Eastern Africa|Eastern]], [[Western Africa|Western]], and [[Southern Africa]], [[West Asia]], and [[Europe]] (especially the [[Mediterranean]] and the [[Balkans]]).

He dishonestly changed to this:
　
The E1b1b clade is presently found in various forms in the [[Horn of Africa]], [[North Africa]], parts of [[Eastern Africa|Eastern]], [[Western Africa|Western]], and [[Southern Africa]], [[West Asia]], and [[Europe]] (especially the [[Mediterranean Spain ]] and the [[Balkans]])

Obviously trying to fool the casual reader who is not better informed into thinking that 
E1b1b is highest in Spain than anywhere else in the Mediterranean parts of Europe, which is obviously a total lie.

This:

European distribution has a frequency peak centered in parts of the [[Balkans]] (up to almost 50% in some areas)<ref name=Semino2004/><ref name=Pericic2005>{{Harvcoltxt|Peričic et al.|2005}}</ref>) and Italy, and declining frequencies evident toward western, central, and northeastern Europe. 

To this:
　
The European distribution has a frequency peak centered in parts of the [[Balkans]] (up to almost 50% in some areas)<ref name=Semino2004/><ref name=Pericic2005>{{Harvcoltxt|Peričic et al.|2005}}</ref>) and Sicily, and declining frequencies evident toward western, central, and northeastern Europe. 


As he can't bear to have Italy (except Sicily, which he does not give a rat's ass about) be somehow associated with high frequencies of a haplogroup of ultimate North African origin.
　
Once again:
　
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the [[Iberian Peninsula]],

To this:
　
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the [[Iberian Peninsula]] Spain, 


Another one (this time inflating the frequency of E-M81 in Western Andalusia):
　
Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 10% in Western [[Andalusia]] 

Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in [[Extremadura]] and South Portugal, 9% in [[Galicia (Spain)|Galicia]], 18% in Western [[Andalusia]]

I think that you get the picture of what this dishonest & fanatical anti-Spanish Italian clown devotes much of his time doing on the Internet. The reason why he does not like Eupedia as much as WikiPedia is because here he can't go around altering tables and frequencies, whereas in WikiPedia he has a much better chance of getting away with it. More honest people, specially Spaniards, should get involved in WikiPedia, BTW, and oppose & expose this (and other anti-Spanish) Wiki Vandal. He is so brazen and shameless that he actually had the balls of accusing another user of being a troublesome Vandal (what he actually is!) to one of those pseudo-moderators that Wiki has:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Andrew_Lancaster

Scroll down to where it says "Vandalism from IP..." That's the pot calling the kettle "black" right there!

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## zanipolo

> Yes, indeed, and this fake-Galician Italian clown is in fact a WikiPedia Vandal that goes by the name of "Galician77". He goes around altering WikiPedia articles in order to make the casual reader (whom we all know does not bother to check with other sources) think that Spain is some sort of extension of Morocco in Europe, while at the same time he tries to lower and minimize any of these Middle Eastern and North African haplogroups in Italy, which this self-hating racist hypocrite buffoon with a massive inferiority complex obviously thinks are a "blemish" on his Italian ancestral land. You can see him in action here, altering passages and percentages in the article about E1b1b that he keeps dishonestly presenting here as some sort of "authority":
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=436450507
> 
> 
> Notice some examples that once again show his idiotic & blatant anti-Spanish & pro-Italian agendas. This, for example:
> 　
> The E1b1b clade is presently found in various forms in the [[Horn of Africa]], [[North Africa]], parts of [[Eastern Africa|Eastern]], [[Western Africa|Western]], and [[Southern Africa]], [[West Asia]], and [[Europe]] (especially the [[Mediterranean]] and the [[Balkans]]).
> 
> ...



was it galician 77 or andrew lancaster, because andrew lancaster is the later one

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## Drac

> was it galician 77 or andrew lancaster, because andrew lancaster is the later one


Andrew Lancaster is one of the several so-called moderators they have over at WikiPedia, and "Galician77" is the same anti-Spanish t-r-o-l-l as "Ferreiro".

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## Knovas

Absolutely PATHETIC.

What an obsession...

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## Ferreiro_

The team of New Fantastic 4 again barking, barking, barking. I am very calm because I have always provided a scientific data I have put the link where you can see such data. These 4 pretend to hide data from the haplogroup E-M81, T, H... in Spain. It is so laughable. Science has shown that 18% of the samples in southwest Spain (Cadiz, Seville, Huelva...) correspond to haplogroup E-M81. Do you really think you can hide the data? You are a waste of time. I Do not even read what they write, because their speech is the same in all the forums: there is nothing from North Africa in Spain, and Ferreiro is a *****. They think that if I am discredited the scientific study will be discredited too  :Rolleyes: . 


Continuing with serious things.
18% of E-M81 in SW Spain = 1 in 5 individuals in Seville, Cadiz, Huelva (the same in Leon, NW of Spain) shares the same haplogroup that the typical resident of Rabat, Casablanca and Marrakech. In Morocco E-M81 gets 80%.

Extract:
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, *18% in Western* *Andalusia* and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[18][29][30][31][32] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 10.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 17% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[33]


The complete link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

Authors (not me, hahaha): Adams 2008, Flores 2005, Beleza 2006, Capelli 2009, Maca-Meyer N., Sánchez-Velasco P., Flores C. _et al._, Larruga JM, González AM, Oterino A, Leyva-Cobián F (2003)

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## Ferreiro_

Now one of the New Fantastic 4 (Grey Moss) starts talking about racism on the Internet against Spain, and international scientific conspiracy against Spain  :Sleepy:

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## Ferreiro_

As for haplogroup T, the same.
This was my first message in this forum about haplogroup T. I put the link too.

I've always been intrigued with this haplogroup, because it is very rare in Europe. 
The highest concentrations in Europe are given in the Spanish island of Ibiza, with almost 17%!!! Then in Andalusia with 6%, according to the following genetic research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

*Ibiza: 16.7% (54 samples) are haplogroup T*
Zalloua et al. (2008), Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean, The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 83, Issue 5, 633-642 17 November 2008 

*Andalucía: 6.9% (29 samples) are haplogroup T*
A; Passarino G, Oefner PJ, Lin AA, Arbuzova S, Beckman LE, De Benedictis G, Francalacci P, Kouvatsi A, Limborska S, Marcikiae M, Mika A, Mika B, Primorac D, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA (2000)."The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic _*** sapiens sapiens_ in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective" (PDF). _Science_ *290* (5494): 1155–59. doi:10.1126/science.290.5494.1155. PMID11073453. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2000_v290_p1155.pdf. 


I am not the author of the results. They insult me​, trying to discredit me, but that changes nothing :).

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## Drac

> The team of New Fantastic 4 again barking, barking, barking. I am very calm because I have always provided a scientific fact I have put the link where you can see such data. These 4 pretend to hide data from the haplogroup E-M81 in Spain. It is so laughable. Science has shown that 18% of the samples in southwest Spain (Cadiz, Seville, etc.). correspond to haplogroup E-M81. Do you really think you can hide the data? You are a waste of time. I Do not even read what they write, because their speech is the same in all the forums: there is nothing from North Africa in Spain, and Ferreiro is a *****. They think that if I am discredited the scientific study is discredited too . 
> 
> 
> Continuing with serious things.
> 18% of E-M81 in SW Spain = 1 in 5 individuals in Seville, and so on. Share the same haplogroup that the typical residents of Rabat, Casablanca and Marrakech.
> 
> Extract:
> In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula Spain, where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia, 18% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[18][29][30][31][32] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 10.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 17% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[33]
> 
> ...


New Pinocchio, you keep presenting a ridiculous WikiPedia article which I have plainly shown that you yourself have altered with your "Galician77" Vandal account. You have shown no scientific work whatsoever that says that E-M81 is 18% in Western Andalusia. You know perfectly well that the original article said 10% and then you changed it at your whim and fancy.

Capelli et al. 2009 says nothing about "Western Andalusia". It lumps all Andalusians together, and the frequency it gave for them was 5.4%, not "18%".

Adams et al. 2008 gave 13.69% for West Andalusia.

As far as I can remember, Beleza et al. 2006 did not even use Andalusians! It was a study about the Portuguese.


The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

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## Drac

> As for haplogroup T, the same.
> This was my first message in this forum about haplogroup T. I put the link too.
> 
> I've always been intrigued with this haplogroup, because it is very rare in Europe. 
> The highest concentrations in Europe are given in the Spanish island of Ibiza, with almost 17%!!! Then in Andalusia with 6%, according to the following genetic research
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups
> 
> *Ibiza: 16.7% (54 samples) are haplogroup T*
> ...


And this was my first post directed at you stupidly shooting yourself in the foot:




> I am glad that you are "intrigued" about it, because it actually happens to occur at higher frequencies among the Italians you desperately try to defend than the Spaniards you stupidly keep trying to attack:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA)
> 
> Like I said before, stop worrying so much about Spaniards and start worrying about your Italian people.


 
I am not the author of the results, yet the New Pinocchio gets angry and starts t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g and spamming the same old nonsense and manipulated Wiki stuff trying to discredit anything that goes against his transparent agenda, but that changes nothing :)

Even the distribution map posted in the thread's first post shows that Italy has higher frequencies :)

The nose, Pinocchio, the nose!

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## Knovas

He can't stand that Spaniards are categorically Europeans. All the racist anti-Iberian agenda is going through the culvert.

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## Ferreiro_

In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía. 
Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).

The complete link (page 6)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
> in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía. 
> Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).
> 
> The complete link (page 6)
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf


So, who cares? Apparently you are obsessed with E (Y-DNA) in Iberia. BTW, Alentejo province represents ~ 7% of the entire Portuguese population. Once again, haplogroup frequencies do not measure admixture. 

Latest autosomal research (Eurogenes and Dodecad) show that Portugal has ~ 6% NW African affinities and Spain < 3%. In addition, Portugal is ~ 86% Euro ( ~ 40% North / West European and ~ 2% Eastern European). Spain is about 91% Euro, with about 43% N / W / E Euro combined.

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## Knovas

He thinks we must be worried for something, when we know perfectly what we are. If we really had a strong link with North Africans,there would be no problem in recognize the fact. However, we are not closer to them, autosomal analysis have proven this since a long time.

So what, ¿must we cry for this?. It's ridiculous at this level being discussing a theme there is no doubt about it. Seriously Ferreiro, you are a pathetic desperate buffon. Solve your problem.

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## Drac

> In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
> in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía. 
> Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).
> 
> The complete link (page 6)
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf


"Border with Andalucia" does not = "Andalucia"

Pinocchio: You've been busted lying through your teeth again. 

It's getting bigger!

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> He can't stand that Spaniards are categorically Europeans. All the racist anti-Iberian agenda is going through the culvert.


He just thinks that if he keeps repeating Y-DNA haplogroup information people will think that Spaniards / Iberians have huge amounts of extra-European DNA. Pathetic.

----------


## Cambrius (The Red)

> In Portugal, according to Beleza (2006), 12% of natives are haplogroup E.
> in certain regions and cities the figure is much higher. Example, the city of Beja in the south has 37.5% of haplogroup E (8 samples). Portalegre 25% (28 samples). Both of them are in the region called Alentejo, border with Andalucía. 
> Even Lisboa gets 17.2% (35 samples).
> 
> The complete link (page 6)
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...05.00221.x/pdf


This post is a perfect example of how absurdly tendentious the Ferreiro T-R-O-L-L is. He makes certain to mention that Beja recorded 37.5% E (Y-DNA) in the Beleza et al. (2006) study, then conveniently fails to mention that the same research also shows that I (Y-DNA), a haplogroup that is fundamentally associated with Northern European population groups, was recorded at near 18% in the Braga region, 16% in Braganca, ~ 14% in Evora *(part of Alentejo province)*, over 14% in Leiria, 12.5% in Santarem and *12.5% in Beja, which is located in the Alentejo* - all I (Y-DNA) clades counted. This charlatan is pathologically driven to distort and lie about the genetics of Iberians, even at the expense of looking like a total fool. :Useless:

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## Knovas

He is an insult for all people who really enjoy with genetics and want to learn as much as posible. Fortunately, it's good to see real serious people with interesting contributions.

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## archaiocapilos

Haplogroups E1b1b and T are the next after I to settle in Europe...so they are more European (South) than R1b or R1a are (North) European. Why are you t-r-o-l-l-i-n-g Ferreiro? Are you racist against South Europeans?

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## Carlitos

He must have a very fat problem.

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## Knovas

He is a racist specially against Iberians. He never says anything about Italians because he is of significant Italian descent, but like most South Americans, it's almost sure he is of Spanish descent too. As you can see, the nonsense has reached the maximum level on this guy, totally about to get into the asylum for life.

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## Carlitos

Although it has an Italian forefather and suspects that Spaniard could have it, he will always be a South Americans native for his aspect and also it will never manage to gain the contest of Miss Universe, for snub.

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## Noman

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/07...e-san-via.html

Mybe T corresponds to part of this "west eurasian admixture"? Then I wouldn't assume it's anything to do with phoenicians. Considering the massai culture it doesn't seem anything like what I'd expect for phoenicians and doesn't seem to be native either.

Or is that why people are angry, an implication if came to spain from north africa?

Also you can always update wikipedia but if you don't even know the sources eupedia is using then I wouldn't.

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## Sile

> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/07...e-san-via.html
> 
> Mybe T corresponds to part of this "west eurasian admixture"? Then I wouldn't assume it's anything to do with phoenicians. Considering the massai culture it doesn't seem anything like what I'd expect for phoenicians and doesn't seem to be native either.
> 
> Or is that why people are angry, an implication if came to spain from north africa?
> 
> Also you can always update wikipedia but if you don't even know the sources eupedia is using then I wouldn't.


LOL, it arrived in africa last.

Its west-asian for westerners and central asian ( uzbekistan ) for the russian geneologist.

its age is equal to J and G...and its older then R

Edit: what a crap paper , Dienekes is giving info which was already known 4 years ago. they must be desperate for inforamtion.
below is the conclusion of the paper

*Conclusions.

Based on these analyses, we can propose a model for the spread of west Eurasian ancestry in
southern and eastern Africa as follows: rst, a large-scale movement of people from west Eurasia into Ethiopia
around 3,000 years ago (perhaps from southern Arabia and associated with the D'mt kingdom and the arrival
of Ethiosemitic languages) resulted in the dispersal of west Eurasian ancestry throughout eastern Africa.
This was then followed by a migration of an admixed population (perhaps pastoralists related to speakers
of Khoe-Kwadi languages) from eastern Africa to southern Africa, with admixture occurring approximately
1,500 years ago. Advances in genotyping DNA from archaeological samples may allow aspects of this model
to be directly tested*

So west-asian only entered east and south africa 3000 years ago

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## Noman

> LOL, it arrived in africa last.
> 
> Its west-asian for westerners and central asian ( uzbekistan ) for the russian geneologist.
> 
> its age is equal to J and G...and its older then R
> 
> Edit: what a crap paper , Dienekes is giving info which was already known 4 years ago. they must be desperate for inforamtion.
> below is the conclusion of the paper
> 
> ...


Yeah I did not think it came from africa. But I thought maybe that's why the little drama a few posts back, implication it came from the conquista, or something.

But I too find T to be an interesting group and admittedly don't know too much about it.

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## adamo

After J2, T is the most common y-DNA haplogroup in the Turkish city of Antalya (14%).

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## adamo

So the italian city of Aquila, which has like 22% T, is like a mini Antalya on the southern coast of western Asia Minor.

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## Sile

> So the italian city of Aquila, which has like 22% T, is like a mini Antalya on the southern coast of western Asia Minor.


Russian genetic scholars have stated since 2011...........
*
It seems that the most surprising fact of the above data has not attracted attention. 
Fact one, that the basic haplotypes R1a1 and T1 are almost identical:
The feeling that T - is an early R1a1, which mutated DYS426 12 -> 11, but DYS392 = 13 survived from ancient R1a1 (by the way, is the same and R1b).

*
We associate the basic haplotypes of haplogroup T with the youngest haplogroups on a tree - R1a1 and R1b1a2 the Russian Plain and in Europe, respectively: 

12 12 11 - 11 11 - 11 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1a, RusR) 
12 12 13 - 11 11 - 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1b1a2, EB) 

11 12 13 - 11 13 - 9 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 12 11 12 (T1) 

The similarity of the base haplotype subclades T1 (and other subclades of haplogroup T1) with R1a1 and R1b1a2 immediately obvious, especially in the last panel of the basic haplotypes, particularly haplogroups R1a1 and T1 (identical alleles identified). 

Haplogroup T and R1a1 shares according to their base haplotypes of 8-11 mutations. This is - the minimum distance around the tree haplogroup. Distance T and haplogroup R1b1a2 on basic haplotypes - 10-13 mutations. Thus, the place of haplogroup T - at the top of the tree haplogroup. 

8-11 mutations with haplogroup R1a1 - is 40600-60700 years between their common ancestors. In this case, the common ancestor of haplogroup T and R1a1 lived between (40600 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 28,000 years ago (60700 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 38,000 years ago. This - the approximate time of haplogroup R, but this pattern is not consistent with current knowledge of the phylogeny of haplogroups R and T. But phylogenetics is not consistent with the view base haplotype haplogroup. It is clear that the experts it needs to be carefully considered, and possibly make adjustments. Haplogroup T definitely does not fit into an existing tree haplogroups after a series of 2009-2011, side moves. 


Literature 

Klesov, AA (2011) DNA-Genealogy major haplogroups of the male half of humanity (Part 1). Bulletin of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy (ISSN 1942-7484), 4, № 5, 988-1014. 

Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.

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## adamo

I really don't understand why you posted that, or what it means. Wha? The similarity between R1a1 and T? Just no.

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## Sile

> I really don't understand why you posted that, or what it means. Wha? The similarity between R1a1 and T? Just no.


this is one part of the paper from April 2013

http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~ak...06_04_2013.pdf

its basically a similarity of Haplotypes. from what I read , the theory is about that humans as not all out of africa, but that a second branch came out in central asian area


EDIT: this theory is also a Spencer Wells (Natgeno 2.0) theory,

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## adamo

Also found in 12% of men from surkhandarya (extreme southern Uzbekistan, on the border with northern Afghanistan.) also 12% of Mongol "turan/Altaic" types and 18% of Turkic uyghurs or something like that, and high frequencies of Tuvans from Xinjiang, extreme western china. Many extreme central Asians such as people as far as Tajikistan/western china and even parts of china bordering Mongolia where T frequencies become elevated again, but it certainly did not originate there, just branched off there.

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## adamo

So the highest frequencies really are in Turkish cities (Antalya,Samsun) several Iranian cities, a Uzbek city etc. on top of all that we already know.

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## adamo

Also found in about 11% of Azeris and 15.4% in another Turkish city, but also in 10-15% of certain Mongols, Chinese and Kazakhs particular sub tribes such as uyghurs or Tuvans or turans, who inhabited the eastern fringe of Central Asia (not only Tajikistan/Turkmenistan but as far as Kazakhstan and tiny fractions of china and Mongolia, the turans (turanids?) are ultimately of iranic origin. T is also found rarely and sporadically across India in Dravidian or Bengali populations.

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## adamo

In all of Central Asia though, it is to be noted that the Tajiks, in particular, must have the highest T frequencies, as they look the part the most; the Uzbeks and Kyrgyz have a more asiatic character and Uzbekistan follows along those same lines as well, whereas the Tajiks are an Iranian type lineage.

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## Sile

> Also found in about 11% of Azeris and 15.4% in another Turkish city, but also in 10-15% of certain Mongols, Chinese and Kazakhs particular sub tribes such as uyghurs or Tuvans or turans, who inhabited the eastern fringe of Central Asia (not only Tajikistan/Turkmenistan but as far as Kazakhstan and tiny fractions of china and Mongolia, the turans (turanids?) are ultimately of iranic origin. T is also found rarely and sporadically across India in Dravidian or Bengali populations.


Are azerbajani and azeri the same people?....they might be now, but in the past I doubt it.
The medes had a major inpact for the area.
What about the circassians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

lots of T belong to these ( 14% )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

also, this has a part
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire

and bronze-age for the area in question:
The *Kaska* (Turkish: _Kaşkalar_, Georgian: ქაშქები, Kashkebi) (also *Kaška*, later Tabalian *Kasku*)[1] were a loosely-affiliated Bronze Age non-Indo-European tribal people, who spoke the unclassified Kaskian language and lived in mountainous Pontic Anatolia, known from Hittite sources.[2] They lived in the mountainous region between the core Hittite region in eastern Anatolia and the Black Sea, and are cited as the reason that the later Hittite empire never extended northward to that area.

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## adamo

True Zoroastrianism is deeply rooted in Persia and can be linked to hg T, I wish someone would expand on the hg in a more descriptive and interesting way though lol.

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## Sile

The only areas where my subclade L446 appears in Europe and middle-east ( required was 67 or more markers tested)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Total number = 7

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## adamo

Weird distribution right there

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## adamo

It's funny, cause according to the genographic project 2.0, haplogroup T's trail starts in east-central Africa and travels across the straight of Hormuz into Yemen on the southern Arabian peninsula. It continues doing this until reaching extreme northern saudi arabia. At this point, two branches separate. One branch moves from extreme north-central Arabian peninsula towards south-central Iraq in the Tigris valley region. The other branch spreads From northern Saudi Arabia,across the Sinai, and into Egypt. Somehow from here, high levels of hg T would arrive either from Egypt to the Horn of Africa (Somalia,Ethiopia), or from the Arabian peninsula showing Neolithic gene flow from the Middle East back to Africa. The correct answer is probably BOTH.

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## Sile

Same parameters as above but for main L131 line ( T1a2)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## Sile

> It's funny, cause according to the genographic project 2.0, haplogroup T's trail starts in east-central Africa and travels across the straight of Hormuz into Yemen on the southern Arabian peninsula. It continues doing this until reaching extreme northern saudi arabia. At this point, two branches separate. One branch moves from extreme north-central Arabian peninsula towards south-central Iraq in the Tigris valley region. The other branch spreads From northern Saudi Arabia,across the Sinai, and into Egypt. Somehow from here, high levels of hg T would arrive either from Egypt to the Horn of Africa (Somalia,Ethiopia), or from the Arabian peninsula showing Neolithic gene flow from the Middle East back to Africa. The correct answer is probably BOTH.


Then that company has blundered as the african T marker is the youngest of the other ones, middle-east, Europe and Asia

Haplogroup T-M184 is not associated with the R1, G and J lineages that entered Africa from Eurasia relatively recently. Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of the clade on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. *The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).*

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## adamo

Well I added that last part about it coming from Egypt, they didn't quite specify where it came from, only that there's a 13% high form certain Somalis and Ethiopians.

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## adamo

We know that Saudi Arabian tribes linked to Banu Hashim, Quraish, the Mecca/Hejaz regions of Saudi Arabia crossed the straight of Hormuz back into the Horn of Africa relatively recently , a Eurasian haplogroup expanding back towards Africa.

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## adamo

It's interesting to know that Egyptian T has more diversity/age than Turkish T by about 4,700 years in advance, leading me to believe that hg T may certainly have originated near the Levant, but it could certainly have arrived from much further east as well, I heard that diversity was greater in the "levant" (don't know which specific region.) than in Iran, but I would like to see further testing done on this.

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## adamo

But then again, diversity is higher in Iran than in Egypt, so it makes this all the more complicated as there are two power cores of "oldest age"; the Levantine coast region and Iran.

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## Sile

The only 2 x T -M184 ( which are not M-70 ) in europe and middle-east which have 67 or more markers tested.
note: this M184 is the base of all T as all M70 have this M184 marker. Estimation is that only 5% of T is not M70
I heard of only one other M184 in Syria.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## adamo

Map coming shortly? What map?

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## Sile

> Map coming shortly? What map?


see above now

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## adamo

So those are the only places the most basal branches have been found? What countries exactly, Syria,turkey,Iran according to this?

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## Sile

> So those are the only places the most basal branches have been found? What countries exactly, Syria,turkey,Iran according to this?


Turkey and Iran

The Turkey person is named Karamanukian and was originally from Trabzon and is of Armenian stock.
There is another in syria and another in central France...both only tested for 37 markers. The french guy from auvergne was part of the Ramos-Luis paper of 2009

the paper stated 3 x T1-M70 plus 1 x K (xM9, xM70 ). Ftdna T project stated he has only M184 and no M70 or no L206

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## adamo

I wonder if these are individuals have any mizrahim Jewish links.

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## Sile

> I wonder if these are individuals have any mizrahim Jewish links.


Do some Armenians have Jew religion?

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## adamo

Maybe? I don't know : )

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## Sile

> Maybe? I don't know : )


when a jew stopped practicing his jewish faith he became know as a Gentile. 
Another reason why this genetic jewish marker makes no sense at all.

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## adamo

What's very interesting is that haplogroup T is said to have arisen along with Emirian culture, which sprang up across the Levant during the Upper Paleolithic period, between 50,000 and 40,000 years ago, in the regions of Syria,Lebanon,Palestine to be more precise.) They claim that this is a more "archaic" Levantine lineage. The "Emireh" culture in itself is named after a site in Israel. The most archaeologically significant site related to the Emirian culture is the city of Meyrouba in central Lebanon; many "Emireh" points have been discovered there.

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## adamo

Some interesting information on K*, it's found in 28% of Lezgi men from Dagestan, 15% of Kabardinian males, 15% of Turkish males, 14% of Iranian men from Isfahan, 14% of Abazninian men, and 11% of Chechen and Azerbaijani men; all of this could be hg T or a good indicator to where T populations sprung up.

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## Sile

> Some interesting information on K*, it's found in 28% of Lezgi men from Dagestan, 15% of Kabardinian males, 15% of Turkish males, 14% of Iranian men from Isfahan, 14% of Abazninian men, and 11% of Chechen and Azerbaijani men; all of this could be hg T or a good indicator to where T populations sprung up.


Lot of T here, the Sigynnae people of pannonia ( circa 500BC )....Herodotus says they are medes from the medes empire of anatolia......strabo says they are from the caspian sea area.

there name means traders/retailers, but there is a lot in crete who are said to be blacksmiths in making spears with a similar name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae

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## Sile

> Some interesting information on K*, it's found in 28% of Lezgi men from Dagestan, 15% of Kabardinian males, 15% of Turkish males, 14% of Iranian men from Isfahan, 14% of Abazninian men, and 11% of Chechen and Azerbaijani men; all of this could be hg T or a good indicator to where T populations sprung up.


plus 7% of north Ossetians and 1% of South Ossetians .....strange?
39% kazahs
25% chios Greeks
13% of Persian Zorastrians ..................but Zorastrians started in Tajikstan

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## adamo

Iranians and Turks at least have T/K* type stuff at 15% on average about. Iranians and Turks definitely should be further analyzed for hg T.

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## adamo

Several different Caucasus people's along with Azeris, Turks and Iranians should be further analyzed as long with Chechens, kabardinian a etc.

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## Sile

> Several different Caucasus people's along with Azeris, Turks and Iranians should be further analyzed as long with Chechens, kabardinian a etc.


Maybe they need to investigate the LT haplogroup before it Split apart into L and T

SNPs are
*Z1*
PF5525
PF5543
PF5548
PF5549
P326
L298
CTS753
CTS2888
CTS4783
CTS5175


*LT,Approx. hg: LT* (ISOGG: LT,LT)  P326, L298, L811

The PF numbers are the newest finds

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## adamo

T seems to have originated in southern Afghanistan and migrated from southern Iran through southern Iraq towards Jordan and the Sinai peninsula. A northern branch moved across Turkmenistan and northern Iran towards the Georgia region.

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## adamo

Another branch traveled from it's Afghani origin point into ancient Australia as well

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## Sile

> Another branch traveled from it's Afghani origin point into ancient Australia as well


IIRC, only K-M9 went to Australia and this K began in south-east asia

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## Sile

DYS390=22 seems to be a purely northern european marker. 

i wonder if the 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 which represent european for DYS390 can indicate how old it is , as an example 22 being older than 23 etc. The Heyer study for DYS390 states this marker very rarely changes/mutates



Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

NOTE: these are only* 67 or more tested markers*

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## Sile

@adamo

your line is split, info as per ftdna T project site

*
July 2013 - there are a large number of new SNPs relevant to Haplogroup T on the Geno 2.0 chip. Z709 appears to be the most significant as it splits the large T-L208 paragroup into 2 roughly equal branches - a redefined T-L208* and T-Z709. T-P77 is a subgroup of T-Z709.*

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## Sile

following my line
I have been checking STR geographical mutations and found only a line from coastal Romania to low Scotland ( argyle). The following STR 390 ( very very slow mutation ), 385 ( again slow ) and 464 ( quicker one, but moves back and forward) , seems to follow other Ydna and have traveled together with my line, G1-M285 and I2-isles..........need more checking
I wonder how much of geographical location for ydna over time, mutates original similar ydna from one nation/region to another

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## adamo

Look at this guy, trying to talk us into believing his daddy is a pure "Veneti"

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## Sile

> Look at this guy, trying to talk us into believing his daddy is a pure "Veneti"


are you talking about me or Piero, if it's me , is this meant to be a joke or an insult.?
In regards to veneti, Piero is by far more veneto than me and neither of us are venetian. Piero might even be from the noble family of Fava ( although this is not his surname).
my sole aim here is to find my line prior to venetic or alpine or southern germany or whatever alpine area as noted by geneticists.
I have already been noted as eastern black sea area by some experts.

If this is an issue, I can simply ignore your comments in future, just let me know.

----------


## Alan

> The only 2 x T -M184 ( which are not M-70 ) in europe and middle-east which have 67 or more markers tested.
> note: this M184 is the base of all T as all M70 have this M184 marker. Estimation is that only 5% of T is not M70
> I heard of only one other M184 in Syria.
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


 As we see on this map again, T located in former Elamite territory. Of course it was likely common among other ancient communities too, like the Phoenicians andSumerians.

----------


## Alan

> Lot of T here, the Sigynnae people of pannonia ( circa 500BC )....Herodotus says they are medes from the medes empire of anatolia......strabo says they are from the caspian sea area.
> 
> there name means traders/retailers, but there is a lot in crete who are said to be blacksmiths in making spears with a similar name.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigynnae


 Could explain the relatively frequent distribution among some Kurds in Anatolia

----------


## Sile

> Could explain the relatively frequent distribution among some Kurds in Anatolia


it seems to me that kurds is under assyrian forum.

this is latest - 9th of September 2013

N=113	09/09/13
25.7%	R1b
18.6%	J1
*15.9%	T*
13.3%	J2
8.0%	E1b1b1
8.0%	G
4.4%	R2a
2.7%	Q1b
1.8%	R1a
0.9%	F
0.9%	L 


in august it was
N=*110* 08/08/13
25.5%	R1b
18.2%	J1
*16.4%	T*
12.7%	J2
8.2%	E1b1b1
8.2%	G
4.5%	R2a
2.7%	Q1b
1.8%	R1a
0.9%	F
0.9%	L

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyri...vity_of_Israel
assyrian territory in brown is also kurdish

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## Sile

> As we see on this map again, T located in former Elamite territory. Of course it was likely common among other ancient communities too, like the Phoenicians andSumerians.


it was also azeri and zoraastrian, although the zorastrians commenced in uzbekistan and kyrgystan.

the 10000 jewish war prisoners captured by the babylonians and brought to mesopotamia to live the rest of their lives could have brought later T marker to europe via the romans

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## Alan

> it seems to me that kurds is under assyrian forum.


How do you mean Kurds under Assyrian forum?

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## Sile

> How do you mean Kurds under Assyrian forum?


kurds are writing in the assyrian forum when dealing with their ancient theories/genetics/culture etc

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## Alan

> kurds are writing in the assyrian forum when dealing with their ancient theories/genetics/culture etc


 No they don't, most Kurds who tried to write about their origin were banned by the racist, pathetic, lying Admin and most of his racist and equally pathetic comrades (Birko19 was exception and to lesser extend Humanist). Especially if Kurds try o disprove the lies spread by them they get banned. So the "informations" provided on this Assyrian Forum are biased and not shared by Kurds. Some Kurds are active on the Forum of the Italian Admin "RacialReality".

I heard the Forum of this madman EliasAlucard was hacked again by a Palestinian whom he banned for whatever reason. Normally I am totally against hacking of websites but allot of people (not only Kurds) will tell you with a smile that he deserved it.

So if you want to learn something about Kurdish history or Genetics watch out for KurdishDna blog or RacialRealities website. EliasAlucards forums is the least place I would recommend you.

You have no chance to argue against Elias. When your arguments are to strong for him he usually gives you a QBQ ban ("Quality before Quantity"). His way to get rid of members whose arguments he feels annoyed about and couldn't find any real reason for banning. 


You will never see EliasAlucard trying to argue with someone on a neutral platform because he knows 90% of the things he claims is dung.

----------


## Sile

> No they don't, most Kurds who tried to write about their origin were banned by the racist, pathetic, lying Admin and most of his racist and equally pathetic comrades (Birko19 was exception and to lesser extend Humanist). Especially if Kurds try o disprove the lies spread by them they get banned. So the "informations" provided on this Assyrian Forum are biased and not shared by Kurds. Some Kurds are active on the Forum of the Italian Admin "RacialReality".
> 
> I heard the Forum of this madman EliasAlucard was hacked again by a Palestinian whom he banned for whatever reason. Normally I am totally against hacking of websites but allot of people (not only Kurds) will tell you with a smile that he deserved it.
> 
> So if you want to learn something about Kurdish history or Genetics watch out for KurdishDna blog or RacialRealities website. EliasAlucards forums is the least place I would recommend you.
> 
> You have no chance to argue against Elias. When your arguments are to strong for him he usually gives you a QBQ ban ("Quality before Quantity"). His way to get rid of members whose arguments he feels annoyed about and couldn't find any real reason for banning. 
> 
> 
> You will never see EliasAlucard trying to argue with someone on a neutral platform because he knows 90% of the things he claims is dung.


ok

so , the data i gave you was from humanist...do these represent who if we are talking about assyrians. I ask because armenians have their own forum

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## Alan

> ok
> 
> so , the data i gave you was from humanist...do these represent who if we are talking about assyrians. I ask because armenians have their own forum


the Data provided by Humanist about Assyrian dna must be correct I assume.

I was specifically talking about Kurdish history/origin/genes on which Elias forum is not a reliable source. 

In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence. 

Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.


Elias Alucard claims Kurds are "acculturated" Assyrians, Armenians mixed with Persians and Turks lol, while if anyone is acculturated it is rather the Assyrians who appear like acculturated Armenians admixed with Levantines and Kurds. he himself is not even purely Assyrian but half Armenian. Also the language spoken by modern Assyrians does not descend from ancient Assyrians but seem like a Aramaic branch. Yet no Kurd would care if they claim Assyrian descend.

But than if Kurds, who have strong Iranian, native Mesopotamian and Caucasian genetic signature, speak a Northwest Iranian language, which is the same branch as Median and Parthian.



> The Russian historian and linguist Vladimir Minorsky suggested that the Medes, who widely inhabited the land where currently the Kurds form the majority, are likely to be the forefathers of the modern Kurds, also on the basis of historical and linguistic evidence that he gathered.
> 
> Gernot Windfuhr (professor of Iranian Studies) identified Kurdish dialects as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum.
> 
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ropeanTree.svg


 and who live on the very same territory as Medes, Parthians, Gutians and Hurrians/Urartains lived and the halaf culture fits perfectly the geography of Kurdistan and than have allot of tribal names like Alan, Aryan, Saka (Scythes), Guti(Gutians) or Gorani/Gawri (Cimmerian in iranian languages) among them and even been called by Armenians "Medes" and because of that claim to have at least some Median heritage or connection to any other of the above listed people like Gutians, Parthian etc., EliasAlucard and comrades are one of the first to protest and call us "acculturated people with identity crises".

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## Sile

> the Data provided by Humanist about Assyrian dna must be correct I assume.
> 
> I was specifically talking about Kurdish history/origin/genes on which Elias forum is not a reliable source. 
> 
> In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence. 
> 
> Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.
> 
> 
> ...


In regards to medes...........the Greek historians named everyone asiatic if they wore pants in the ancient times......even to say they where persians. even phrygians where "asiatic" in their eyes.
Medes live in modern NW Iran , basically azeri area, the parthians where much east and the bactrians further still.
The medes would surely also be mixed with the pontic cimmerians ( known to greeks as related to thracians )

As for modern times...my idea is to allow anyone who wants out of a nation and gain independence should be allowed without bloodshed....similar to split of czechoslovakia . I think its time for the UN to wake-up

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## Alan

> In regards to medes...........the Greek historians named everyone asiatic if they wore pants in the ancient times......even to say they where persians. even phrygians where "asiatic" in their eyes.
> Medes live in modern NW Iran , basically azeri area, the parthians where much east and the bactrians further still.
> The medes would surely also be mixed with the pontic cimmerians ( known to greeks as related to thracians )
> 
> As for modern times...my idea is to allow anyone who wants out of a nation and gain independence should be allowed without bloodshed....similar to split of czechoslovakia . I think its time for the UN to wake-up


 The Greeks called indeed everyone "Persians" but this because they were foreigners to the region and knew Iranian tribes as "Persians" just like Iranians, Arabs and Turks call Greeks "Younan" yet Ionians were only a tribe among the large Greek people.

The Parthians did not live much further East. They started in Northeast Iran but spread into other areas (especially Western Iran and Mesopotamia) they were descend of Parni (Scythian) tribe which was in usual contact and admixed with Medes. This contact created the Parthians. The Parthians though living in Northeast Iran had definitely Northwest Iranian heritage. As we see on their language. And they had not much to do with Bactrians (beside being neighbors) which spoke a Northeast Iranian language. And they did also spread and lived throughout Mesopotamia, Caucasus, Anatolia and the rest of North and West Iran. This is evident from archeological traces.

In other words based on scientists, Parthians were basically Medes+Scythian which had adopted a language rather descend of the former but started as a tribe of the letter.



The Medes did not live exclusively in Azeri area. This believe is probably based on misinformation on other Forums or on the idea that "West Azerbaijan" province is Azeris because of its name. The name of the province has absolutely nothing to do with the history or population of it. It was given to this place after the Kurdish republic of Mahabad was crushed with help of British-Persian cooperation. The Medes even started in the Zagros mountains in what is modern day Kirmashan and Kordestan (both Kurdish provinces) They spread pretty much all around modern Kurdish region and than Azeri and even Persian territory too. But contrary to Azeris or Persians, Kurds have linguistic connection to them too. 

Azeris are basically turkified Kurds and other Northwest Iranian people. Shah Ismail is a prime example. Kurdish dialects/languages are by far the largest group among the Northwest Iranian languages just like Persian is the largest in Southwest Iranian. Kurdish is indeed that prominent and large that some linguists had the tendency to call Northwest Iranic language family simply "Kurdic".



And now to the independence. As long as the UN does nothing because the countries involved are strong allies of world powers like NATO or the Russian axis. The Middle East will never change. I go that far and claim the borders drawn in this area are the main factor for the wars and dictatorial systems there.

to make the Middle East a more peaceful place at least a Kurdish, Druze, Baloch, Allawite and maybe Assyrian (if they would start to do something for it against the Iraqi central government), in the southern Niniveh plains were the make up a small majority, country must be established.

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## LeBrok

> And now to the independence. As long as the UN does nothing because the countries involved are strong allies of world powers like NATO or the Russian axis. The Middle East will never change. I go that far and claim the borders drawn in this area are the main factor for the wars and dictatorial systems there.
> 
> to make the Middle East a more peaceful place at least a Kurdish, Druze, Baloch, Allawite and maybe Assyrian (if they would start to do something for it against the Iraqi central government), in the southern Niniveh plains were the make up a small majority, country must be established.


I have a problem understanding the hesitance and lack of initiative of Iraq Kurds to form their own country after fall of Saddam, or even now. One would think that perfect time for independence is when dominant country is weakened.

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## Alan

> I have a problem understanding the hesitance and lack of initiative of Iraq Kurds to form their own country after fall of Saddam, or even now. One would think that perfect time for independence is when dominant country is weakened.


 There are several reasons and the Iraqis are one of the smallest of them. Back than when Kurds gained the control over their land in Iraq, Turkey tried everything in it's power to destroy the Kurdish gains and success. Under the pretext of "fight against PKK" they bombed several villages in Iraqi Kurdistan. Turkey threatened to attack if Iraqi Kurds would have moved towards independence. Later Iran tried to gain control over Kurdish land by using the Shia Arabs and el Maliki. And not only because of Turkey but also because of "stability in Iraq" it was not in US interest either. Now the situation has drastically changed and Kurdish regional government has made smart moves and gained importance in World economics. 

I can't guarantee but I assume 2014 will be the year of Independence.

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## Sile

> In my opinion Haplogroup T is generally and especially a lower Mesopotamian haplogroup which is where it shows also strong presence. 
> 
> Medes in my opinion, just like Scythians or Parthians must have been strong in R (especially R1a with allot R1b and some R2a) and J2 and some G. Ancient Persians were very similar but most likely had additionally allot of T too which they got from the Elamites whom were one of the factors forming the Persian identity.
> 
> But than if Kurds, who have strong Iranian, native Mesopotamian and Caucasian genetic signature, speak a Northwest Iranian language, which is the same branch as Median and Parthian.
> 
> 
> and who live on the very same territory as Medes, Parthians, Gutians and Hurrians/Urartains lived and the halaf culture fits perfectly the geography of Kurdistan and than have allot of tribal names like Alan, Aryan, Saka (Scythes), Guti(Gutians) or Gorani/Gawri (Cimmerian in iranian languages) among them and even been called by Armenians "Medes" and because of that claim to have at least some Median heritage or connection to any other of the above listed people like Gutians, Parthian etc., EliasAlucard and comrades are one of the first to protest and call us "acculturated people with identity crises".


I agree that T-M184 is Mesopotamian, ........but T-M70 is from ( mutated) Uzbekistan area/zone. Somewhere are the mutation of M70 in the area stated they went westward and northward and then later southwards . The south anatolian, crete, chios, samos and other aegean islands have a lot of T-M70 and zero "pure" T-M184

thanks for inforamtion...I will check on the names you mentioned and also carians, lecians and other minor people in western anatolia

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## adamo

Is it just me or is there a minor link between Circassians (Adyghe type people) and hg T? the Adyghe once heavily flooded Samsun in Turkey as migrants and Kabardians, modern day remnants of the Circassians have 15% hg T.

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## adamo

Kabardians are an Adyghe people anciently known as Circassians that migrated everywhere that inflationary f hg T are found: Around half of all Circassians live in Turkey, mainly in the provinces of Samsun and Ordu (in Northern Turkey), Kahramanmaraş (in Southern Turkey), Kayseri (in Central Turkey), Bandırma and Düzce (in Northwest Turkey).Significant communities live in Jordan, Syria and smaller communities live in Israel (in the villages of Kfar Kama and Rehaniya)
Egypt and Libya have communities as well.

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## adamo

But I like it when Sile showed us that T-M184 in t's basal form was found only in southern turkey, western Iran and I believe Syria, makes it all so difficult to understand as clade age would point at the central Middle East as T's origin point.

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## Sile

> Is it just me or is there a minor link between Circassians (Adyghe type people) and hg T? the Adyghe once heavily flooded Samsun in Turkey as migrants and Kabardians, modern day remnants of the Circassians have 15% hg T.


what is your source for this?

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## adamo

Well I figured since Kabardians have 15% K* probably all T.

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## Alan

> I agree that T-M184 is Mesopotamian, ........but T-M70 is from ( mutated) Uzbekistan area/zone. Somewhere are the mutation of M70 in the area stated they went westward and northward and then later southwards . The south anatolian, crete, chios, samos and other aegean islands have a lot of T-M70 and zero "pure" T-M184
> 
> thanks for inforamtion...I will check on the names you mentioned and also carians, lecians and other minor people in western anatolia


No problem, its always good to be able to give information about your own people.


Here I will give you another few hints.

About the Medes. The first King of the Medes was Diyako/Diako his name in Greek is Deioces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deioces


Now the name Diyako is a very old traditional Kurdish name and as far as I can tell but not guarantee it is only common among Kurds in the Near East.



And since you said Medes were mixed with Cimmerians (which they were obviously and also with Scythians). Here is another scientific theory about the Kurdish linguistic/tribal name used by the majority of Kurds.

It is Kirmanji/Kurmanji. Now I have red that some scientist believe that this term is made up of two words. Kir which can be associated with the term Kimmerian just like the iland of Krim/Crimea.

And Manji which is believed to have derived from the word Maji. The Maji also known as Mager, was the Religious Caste among the Medes. This term is the origin of the word Magican used in modern Europe. The Maji were known throughout the antique world as "sorcerer"

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## Sile

Some facts about Basal T-M184

The German in Ftdna is tested for M184+ M193- M70- Lineage 1.1 but FTDNA is not updated and M184 is not recognized as T. so its branded K in Ftdna T project.

The M184 from Turkey is really an Armenian from Nagorno-Karabakh in the Southern Caucasus M184+ M193- M70- Lineage 1.2 He is tested for L445+ L455+ and FTDNA outdated nomenclature recognize as T.
Other close to 1.2 is found in Palestine but with Aegean origin. 

The Syrian M184 is tested M184+ M193+ M70- Lineage 2.1
All M193+ are less basal than plain M184+.

1.So the two oldest splitted branches of M184 are found in *Germany and Caucasus*. 
2.The second oldest is found in Syria from an Amenian
3.Other less older lineages are found in Armenians from Anatolia also in Iran and Kuwait.

There are other non confirmed as M70- but the y-STR or their tested SNPs looks rather close: *one from Aeolian Islands, one from Eivissa and one Balkar (Caucasus).*
The Aeolian one in the FTDNA T project, ...............the Balkar (caucasus) in 23andme, .............. the Eivissans can be found in the last study of the Iberian Peninsula (2013).

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## aprilk

This thread makes for an interesting read. My great grandfather from France belongs to Y-DNA T1a1a1 P77+.

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## Sile

this link below places T in northern Iran, while J is in meopotamia

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2...urasian-y.html

Its about eurasia migration routes - paper is 2013

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## adamo

Excellent find Sile, seems that F originated near southern Iraq and moved towards central Iran were at originated; G would then push towards the Caucasus (Georgia,Azerbaijan). K seems to have originated on the Iran/Afghanistan border. From here L would push towards Pakistan/India in the east. T would migrated from eastern Iran/Afghanistan towards the western Iranian/ Iraqi border.

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## adamo

The position of IJ isn't correct though in my opinion; it's too far towards Central Asia in one of the photos.

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## adamo

How exactly does genographic project work, it says I'm M70+ with this description: Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages in West Asia. It is around 21 percent of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish Diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews.

In North Africa, it is 6 to 7 percent of the Egyptian male population and about 7 percent of the Ethiopian male population. In South Asia, it is 53 percent of Bauris male lineages and 7 to 11 percent of Gond male lineages (India). In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany.

Then it links hg T's originswith Emirian culture which sprung up across the levant.

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## adamo

It then shows my last mutation as L299+. Description: Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16 percent), Egypt (16 percent), Somalia (14 percent), and Iraq (13 percent). It is present throughout West Asia and is about 8 percent of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13 percent of male Assyrian populations. In Europe, it is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1 percent. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish Diaspora populations.
It then links hg T with kebaran culture. M-70+ sprung up 25,000-30,000 years ago whereas L299 arose 14,000-20,000 years ago according to this......is it safe to assume I'm T1a1 (L299)?

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## Sile

> How exactly does genographic project work, it says I'm M70+ with this description: Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages in West Asia. It is around 21 percent of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish Diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews.
> 
> In North Africa, it is 6 to 7 percent of the Egyptian male population and about 7 percent of the Ethiopian male population. In South Asia, it is 53 percent of Bauris male lineages and 7 to 11 percent of Gond male lineages (India). In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17 percent of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5 percent of male lineages in mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24 percent of male lineages in Germany.
> 
> Then it links hg T's originswith Emirian culture which sprung up across the levant.


It would most likely be the Uruk people ....who traveled to the north Caucasus and beyond, and also traveled into Anatolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk

And the Elamites

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## adamo

So basically you cut it down to iraq's Sumerians and Iran's Elamites; which would make sense considering the frequencies across Iran and Iraq.....so am I L299+; that's what it says my last mutation is and my heat map as well.

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## adamo

Wow, who's the imbecil that made that map by the way? How is it sure that F took place in central Iran? (Most studies place it's origins near northern/central Saudi Arabia and southern Iraq. How is it sure that the DE mutation took place outside of Africa in southern Iraq (Lol) and then E re-entered Africa (who said the E3a men ever left for sure?). Also, I seriously doubt IJ originated near the Iran/Afghanistan Central Asia region. I would give it a more conservative origin in the Middle East proper.

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## adamo

It is confirmed that the nimrod, isaaq etc. clans that entered the Somalia region descended from one "Shaykh Ishaq ibn Ahmad al-Hashimi from Arabia, a descendant of one of the Prophet Muhammad's early followers". The key word is Hashimi, and he was a Hashemite Arab from the Mecca region of Saudi Arabia. Anything linked to Quraysh or Hashemites I would link to hg T; Hashemite countries are Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Jordan etc.

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