# Humanities & Anthropology > Anthropology & Ethnography > Guess the Ethnicity >  What do you think is the ethnic make-up of this woman?

## Strudel

On the left and her mother at right

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## Balkan1992

Sicilian !

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## Joey37

As a person with a half-Sicilian Nana, I agree with Balkan1992.

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## Angela

German, or Czechoslovakian, somewhere around there.

They don't look Italian.

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## Strudel

Well, this is interesting! Thanks for the input to all.

It's funny that I get two replies saying Sicilian. My mother told me that after she emigrated as a teenager, with her family to Canada, she was repeatedly taken to be Italian or asked if she was Italian. Maybe Tyrol? But, she always insisted that no she is German. 

She was born in Trier, Germany as was her mother. My maternal grandfather is also German with family background mainly in the old German territory called Prussia, as far as I know (still not certain as he died very young, and I have had trouble getting exact information about my mother's line). Linguistically, they are all German. There might be Swiss area ties further back on my grandma's side and possible (very slight clue) Sudetenland area on my grandfather's side. But, I don't know any of this for sure yet. I will hopefully get more of a picture and some clues when I receive my 23andme DNA results. 

Angela, may I ask what makes you say Czech? I am curious.

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## Angela

> Well, this is interesting! Thanks for the input to all.
> 
> It's funny that I get two replies saying Sicilian. My mother told me that after she emigrated as a teenager, with her family to Canada, she was repeatedly taken to be Italian or asked if she was Italian. Maybe Tyrol? But, she always insisted that no she is German. 
> 
> She was born in Trier, Germany as was her mother. My maternal grandfather is also German with family background mainly in the old German territory called Prussia, as far as I know (still not certain as he died very young, and I have had trouble getting exact information about my mother's line). Linguistically, they are all German. There might be Swiss area ties further back on my grandma's side and possible (very slight clue) Sudetenland area on my grandfather's side. But, I don't know any of this for sure yet. I will hopefully get more of a picture and some clues when I receive my 23andme DNA results. 
> 
> Angela, may I ask what makes you say Czech? I am curious.


My first choice was German, but I thought there might be a bit of a more "eastern" strain there. I have a very good friend whose family is German speaking, from what used to be the Sudetenland, and the family had intermarried a bit with Slavic speakers. She had dark hair and eyes but pale skin, as do I, and when we went out to lunch, or shopping, people often thought we were sisters, or at least related. In actuality, she looked central European, and I look Italian if you really know both groups, but I could see why people thought that.

There's a group I discovered after getting into this hobby, the Gorals, who live in the Carpathians, most of whom look very "Slavic", but some of whom look like her. I just think it's some ancient EEF ancestry rising to the surface, although mixed with other things. 

"The Gorals are an ethnographic group primarily found in their traditional area of southern Poland, northern Slovakia, and in the region of Cieszyn Silesia in the Czech Republic."




If I didn't know he was a Goral from Poland I would swear he was Italian.




I can see why people would ask your mother if she was from the Austrian Tyrol, and that's sort of what I meant. They're Austrians, and so Germanic, after all. She could easily pass there, imo.








People don't really know what Italians look like, as per the other thread on guessing a bunch of Italian women, and that's especially true of North Americans. Your mother could "pass" in Northern Italy or Central Italy, but only just. She doesn't look at all Sicilian or Southern Italian to me.

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## davef

I think she looks English

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

She is incredibly un-English. I would have guessed Hungarian. She seems of Northern Balkan origin, even if she is not.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> My first choice was German, but I thought there might be a bit of a more "eastern" strain there. I have a very good friend whose family is German speaking, from what used to be the Sudetenland, and the family had intermarried a bit with Slavic speakers. She had dark hair and eyes but pale skin, as do I, and when we went out to lunch, or shopping, people often thought we were sisters, or at least related. In actuality, she looked central European, and I look Italian if you really know both groups, but I could see why people thought that.
> 
> There's a group I discovered after getting into this hobby, the Gorals, who live in the Carpathians, most of whom look very "Slavic", but some of whom look like her. I just think it's some ancient EEF ancestry rising to the surface, although mixed with other things. 
> 
> "The Gorals are an ethnographic group primarily found in their traditional area of southern Poland, northern Slovakia, and in the region of Cieszyn Silesia in the Czech Republic."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gorals is spot-on, pin-point accuracy with the phenotype there (again, even if she isnt from there)

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## Strudel

Angela, Wow. There are such striking similarities with the phenotype of some of the Gorals and my maternal family members that I am astounded. 

The guy who you wrote is Goral but could be thought Italian, has such similarity to my maternal uncle and my cousin (his son) and of course I can also see how the woman in the first photo does have my mom's look. But, what is really getting me is the photo of a family with three daughters on the left. The girl second from left is the spitting image of one of my daughters, except the eye colour. Other than that she could be her twin, which kind of floors me. My daughter would have my husband's fully Scottish/English in the mix. Add that to my generic German, and one would guess she would have a "not so Central/Eastern European look" anymore, but I have always felt she carried it still somehow. It's a combination of things, but one that stands out after looking at the locals is the nose. 

I did some reading on ethnic history in this area and looking up phenotypes. I'm a beginner so I just searched Gorals and also Silesians. From what I see there could be a good chance of some of ethnic brew coming from here. You have a good eye.  :Good Job:

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## Angela

> Angela, Wow. There are such striking similarities with the phenotype of some of the Gorals and my maternal family members that I am astounded. 
> 
> The guy who you wrote is Goral but could be thought Italian, has such similarity to my maternal uncle and my cousin (his son) and of course I can also see how the woman in the first photo does have my mom's look. But, what is really getting me is the photo of a family with three daughters on the left. The girl second from left is the spitting image of one of my daughters, except the eye colour. Other than that she could be her twin, which kind of floors me. My daughter would have my husband's fully Scottish/English in the mix. Add that to my generic German, and one would guess she would have a "not so Central/Eastern European look" anymore, but I have always felt she carried it still somehow. It's a combination of things, but one that stands out after looking at the locals is the nose. 
> 
> I did some reading on ethnic history in this area and looking up phenotypes. I'm a beginner so I just searched Gorals and also Silesians. From what I see there could be a good chance of some of ethnic brew coming from here. You have a good eye.


Just for clarity, the photo with three daughters on the left is from the Tyrol.

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## Pax Augusta

> Just for clarity, the photo with three daughters on the left is from the Tyrol.


Yes, from Austrian Tyrol.

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## Strudel

> Just for clarity, the photo with three daughters on the left is from the Tyrol.


Ah, yes. I see this, now. I had missed noticing this piece of information. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

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## Strudel

I did the 23andme kit and uploaded my raw data to GEDmatch Genesis. Here is my K13 Oracle results. 

It contains a few happy illuminations as per finding some migration and admixture in my family tree. 

My conjectures, based on scant known family history is that the Baltic might come from my maternal grandfather's side (Prussian), but other than that the Baltic is still a mystery for me. 

The West Med/Tuscan/Sicilian might be from my maternal grandmother. 

The Hungarian and Serb (the latter is a surprise) is obviously from my dad's side as they lived in the Transdanubian area since the mid-1700s. 





Kit Num: EV2099920
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.


*Gedmatch.Com*
*Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle*
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.


K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013


*Admix Results (sorted):* 


*#* *Population* *Percent*
1 North_Atlantic 39.99
2 Baltic 22.87
3 West_Med 14.46
4 East_Med 10.58
5 West_Asian 7.22
6 Red_Sea 2.18




Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.


--------------------------------


Least-squares method.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_German @ 4.294094
2 South_Dutch @ 6.113008
3 Austrian @ 8.041118
4 French @ 8.296420
5 East_German @ 10.818999
6 North_German @ 11.585999
7 Hungarian @ 11.922753
8 Southeast_English @ 12.497251
9 Danish @ 13.801004
10 North_Dutch @ 13.920059
11 Orcadian @ 14.498380
12 Southwest_English @ 14.689142
13 Serbian @ 14.788725
14 Irish @ 15.654822
15 Swedish @ 16.148348
16 Norwegian @ 16.229862
17 West_Scottish @ 16.254747
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 16.442003
19 Portuguese @ 16.995619
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.150969


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanian +50% West_Scottish @ 2.602191




Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Swedish +25% West_German +25% West_Sicilian @ 1.456963




Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Austrian + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.086914
2 French + Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + Norwegian @ 1.239619
3 Austrian + Norwegian + Orcadian + West_Sicilian @ 1.241491
4 Austrian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.257649
5 Austrian + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.283994
6 Hungarian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.311514
7 East_Sicilian + Norwegian + South_Dutch + Swedish @ 1.337555
8 Austrian + Danish + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.346398
9 French + Italian_Abruzzo + North_Dutch + North_Swedish @ 1.346660
10 East_German + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.351238
11 Austrian + Orcadian + Swedish + West_Sicilian @ 1.354627
12 South_Dutch + South_Italian + Swedish + Swedish @ 1.357394
13 Austrian + Irish + Swedish + West_Sicilian @ 1.383722
14 Austrian + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.386936
15 Austrian + Danish + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.431488
16 East_Sicilian + North_Dutch + South_Dutch + Swedish @ 1.437659
17 Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.442919
18 Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 1.449991
19 Swedish + Swedish + West_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.456963
20 Hungarian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Tuscan @ 1.458228


 ************


My maternal grandparents, born in the Kingdom of Prussia. 

Grandmother, born 1908



Grandfather, born 1903

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> I did the 23andme kit and uploaded my raw data to GEDmatch Genesis. Here is my K13 Oracle results. 
> 
> It contains a few happy illuminations as per finding some migration and admixture in my family tree. 
> 
> My conjectures, based on scant known family history is that the Baltic might come from my maternal grandfather's side (Prussian), but other than that the Baltic is still a mystery for me. 
> 
> The West Med/Tuscan/Sicilian might be from my maternal grandmother. 
> 
> The Hungarian and Serb (the latter is a surprise) is obviously from my dad's side as they lived in the Transdanubian area since the mid-1700s. 
> ...


What's your JTest score (under Eurogenes on Gedmatch)? Grandpa doesn't look very Prussian

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## Strudel

@ToBeOrNotToBe,

3.45 Ashkenazi 

On 23andMe I have >1% match with Ashkenazi. Eurogenes, I would think is probably closer to the right admixture. But, at any rate, my Opa's not-so-typical-Prussian look is I don't think coming from much Ashkenazi. He does look like Dutch that I know, so maybe his ethnic situation is moreso around BeNeLux.

Or, it could be Sweden I have no idea about any ancestor lines in Scandinavia, but it keeps coming up. I highly doubt the Scandinavian can be from my dad's side. It most likely is from either of my mom's parents. I do have some preliminary verification of this via the DNA matches of people I have from 23andme as well as GEDmatch. My matches that are clearly Ashkenazi Jewish or have more than the minimal (like most European's do) are all very clearly related to me (2nd to 4th cousin) from on my dad's side, by exact geo location and also by distinctive surnames. 

Also, my Opa was a Nazi, not something I easily say or want to bring up, and it would be ironic, if he was Jewish, but just to say, it is strongly unlikely he is Jewish. 


Here is my Jtest: 


Kit Num: EV2099920
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
*Gedmatch.Com*

*Jtest 4-Ancestors Oracle*

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

Jtest Oracle population reference data revised 06 Nov 2012. 

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
26.31

2
ATLANTIC
20.96

3
SOUTH_BALTIC
13.26

4
WEST_MED
11.29

5
EAST_EURO
10.16

6
EAST_MED
8.68

7
WEST_ASIAN
4.44

8
ASHKENAZI
3.45




Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
14 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_&_Central_German @ 5.316481
2 NL @ 6.994631
3 AT @ 8.391496
4 English @ 8.741648
5 Cornish @ 10.235704
6 FR @ 10.563787
7 DK @ 10.598955
8 Orcadian @ 11.701970
9 NO @ 12.078046
10 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 12.187727
11 IE @ 12.633269
12 Scottish @ 13.878890
13 HU @ 14.485706
14 Serbian @ 14.987904
15 North_Swedish @ 15.323325
16 PT @ 16.897486
17 ES @ 18.520056
18 RO @ 18.852076
19 North_Italian @ 19.015169
20 South_Finnish @ 22.496929

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English +50% Serbian @ 4.528761


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% South_&_Central_Swedish +25% Tuscan +25% West_&_Central_German @ 2.311399


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German + West_&_Central_German @ 2.129222
2 North_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German + West_&_Central_German @ 2.281364
3 South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.311399
4 NO + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German + West_&_Central_German @ 2.374415
5 NL + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.400682
6 DK + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.412587
7 NO + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.424723
8 NL + North_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.453044
9 English + North_Swedish + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.482784
10 English + GR + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 2.521938
11 English + GR + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 2.568635
12 English + GR + NO + NO @ 2.579059
13 English + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.585495
14 DK + English + GR + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 2.611220
15 NO + NO + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 2.634077

******



*

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## Strudel

> What's your JTest score (under Eurogenes on Gedmatch)? Grandpa doesn't look very Prussian


By the way, Prussia was just really a geo-political entity, not an ethnicity.

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## Angela

Most people don't have an "eye" for ethnic phenotypes at all. 

That's why they thought the subject of the OP was Sicilian, of all things. :)

If someone has a prominent nose, or one which dips at the end, or has dark hair and eyes, they can't be British or German. It's silly, but there it is.

I thought of that this evening because I just finished watching an old British series. Such features are by no means unknown among the British aristocratic families. 

I don't think you get more English aristocrat looking than Nigel Havers: that's why he plays himself constantly.



Actually, German would probably have been my first choice for your grandfather, largely having to do with the shape of his head and features.

Helmut Kohl

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## Strudel

> Most people don't have an "eye" for ethnic phenotypes at all. 
> 
> That's why they thought the subject of the OP was Sicilian, of all things. :)
> 
> If someone has a prominent nose, or one which dips at the end, or has dark hair and eyes, they can't be British or German. It's silly, but there it is.
> 
> I thought of that this evening because I just finished watching an old British series. Such features are by no means unknown among the British aristocratic families. 
> 
> I don't think you get more English aristocrat looking than Nigel Havers: that's why he plays himself constantly.
> ...


Helmut Kohl is a good example, Angela. To be honest, in my view out of all of my 4 grandparents, my grandfather on my mom's side (pictured above) looks the most Germanic, even with some Baltic influence, which I will get to. I can't be sure what exactly @ToBeOrNotToBe is seeing that doesn't fit, but if it is indeed the prominent nose, to jump to Jewish from this facial characteristic, is unwise. Firstly, as you rightly point out, a big nose is found on many Germans and also the British, among other ethnicities, I might add. Actually, as far as I have seen, it's not uncommon for Frenchmen as well. But, it is not solely the mindset of "doesn't look Prussian or German" -really a broad mixed ethno-type given to some regional variation - that is problematic. It is also the jumping to a narrow presumption of Jewish mixture. If it is indeed the nose that ToBeOrNotToBe is hung up on, this is not a de facto physical marker of Jewish heritage. Too simplistic. 

Just to illustrate with a few examples from the former Prussian Kingdom, who are ethnically Germanic and have a big schnozzola: 




Louis Ferdinand, Prince of Prussia





Friedrich III, Emperor and King of Prussia 





WilhelmII ("Kaiser Wilhelm"), Emperor and King of Prussia 







Albrecht Graf Von Roon, Prussian General (born in Pomerania/Poland, of Flemish descent)

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## Strudel

Picking up on what @Angela mentioned about British phenotype, this relates to the discussion about my maternal grandfather. Based on a number of factors (DNA testing database cousin matches, surname history, religion, largely illuminating my dad’s side as the origin), I have deduced that probably the major if not all of my Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic admixture genetic results comes from him. 

This grouping has a long historic human connection through trade and military. I was going to make a map, but to save my time and effort, I found this map which shows very well the area - the blue lines. Connections like this should not be under-estimated as to the effect over many years of continuous contact and how it will create a geographically/regionally based hybrid mixture of ethnic look as well as of course a genetic kind of “breed”. 

European Trade Routes in the Middle Ages 
__
_Source Link: https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/rise-europe-middle-ages/_
_“Several vast, large-scale commercial networks emerged. For example, there was one that connected the North and the Baltic Seas, which linked together the British Isles, the Low Countries, as well as northern Germany and southern Scandinavia.”_ 


Main Trading Routes of the Hanseatic Era


Moving ahead to the Early Modern Period, connections continued: 

“_On the Continent the Thirty Years War, which was mainly fought in Germany, attracted thousands of Scottish soldiers, mainly to enrol in the service of Sweden, and many of whom later settled in Germany as well as in Scandinavia and the Baltic lands. Similarly, the Dutch Revolt against Spanish rule led to substantial numbers of Scottish soldiers being recruited to aid their Calvinist brethren in their struggle. These soldiers were mostly formed into the Scotch Brigade in the service of the United Provinces which existed for nearly two hundred years. Many of these soldiers later settled in the Netherlands._

_One of the most important destinations for Scottish emigrants in the early modern period was Poland, which by the middle of the seventeenth century was the home of around 30,000 Scots. Some had arrived as Catholic refugees, many others as economic migrants attracted by opportunities offered there by the existing social system. Society was divided between the aristocracy and the peasantry, with the gap between them filled by merchants and craftsmen from the Netherlands, Germany and Scotland._ 

_Some of the Scots that settled in centres such as Gdańsk/Danzig or Kraków were former soldiers in the service of Sweden and Poland, who became wandering merchants or cramers. The shipping links that existed between Danzig and east coast Scottish ports such as Aberdeen facilitated emigration. Emigration to Poland and the southern Baltic began to decline from around 1650 in favour of locations to the west of Scotland._

_Scottish emigration to the Scandinavian lands of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland was largely, though not completely, by soldiers of fortune seeking employment generally under Gustavus Adolphus but also under the Danish kings. Those who survived the campaigns of the Thirty Years War were often granted land and encouraged to settle. As well as soldiers, the Scandinavian kings also recruited seafarers. Merchants and craftsmen, mainly from burghs in eastern Scotland and the Northern Isles, moved to Scandinavia attracted by economic opportunities there.”_

_Source Link:_ https://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2015/11/13/migration-from-scotland-before-1700/



My working hypothesis that will be proved or not when I complete my family tree with DNA matches and paper trail documentation, is that the Northern admixture that comes up British, specifically Orcadian, is in fact from my maternal grandfather and has to do with historic inter-migration from Scotland to the north of Europe. Some Orcadians: 


_Source Link_: http://www.aboutorkney.com/people.html


My maternal grandfather’s surname although found in Germany, does not sound German at all. In fact it is very Anglo and found mostly in Britain and being associated mainly with Scot lines. I always wondered about my maiden name which can be Germanized, but is clearly not original to Deutschland and where it really came from. Surnames are an interesting clue and legacy that continues a straight line, much like ydna, but in civil form.

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