# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Age estimates of T ( ydna )

## Sile

CT-M168 formed 84300 ybp, TMRCA 68300 ybp
CF-P143 formed 68300 ybp, TMRCA 65700 ybp
F-M89 formed 65700 ybp, TMRCA 48200 ybp
GHIJK-M3658 formed 48200 ybp, TMRCA 48000 ybp
HIJK-M578 formed 48000 ybp, TMRCA 48000 ybp

K - P128/PF5504 formed 46700 ybp, TMRCA 44600 ybp
K*LT - PF5531/M2425 * L298/P326 * CTS3648/M2493, formed 44600 ybp, TMRCA 42000 ybp
L - Y5514 , formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 16500 ybpT - CTS10618 * Y3821 * PF5610., formed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 36700 ybp 



The TMRCA of* T ( ydna ) is 20000 years older than L ( ydna )* even though they originated together under LT ydna marker

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## bicicleur

both L and T split right after formation, but the splitted tribes did not survive till today
36700 years ago, T* split from T1 and people from both branches survived till today
30000 years ago some T1* survived
next split was 15800 years ago

TCTS10618 * Y3821 * PF5575... 262 SNPsformed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 36700 ybp
T*T1L490 * L206formed 36700 ybp, TMRCA 30000 ybp
T1*T1aPAGE78 * M70/PAGE46/PF5662formed 30000 ybp, TMRCA 15800 ybp
T1a*

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## Sile

> both L and T split right after formation, but the splitted tribes did not survive till today
> 36700 years ago, T* split from T1 and people from both branches survived till today
> 30000 years ago some T1* survived
> next split was 15800 years ago
> 
> TCTS10618 * Y3821 * PF5575... 262 SNPsformed 42000 ybp, TMRCA 36700 ybp
> T*T1L490 * L206formed 36700 ybp, TMRCA 30000 ybp
> T1*T1aPAGE78 * M70/PAGE46/PF5662formed 30000 ybp, TMRCA 15800 ybp
> T1a*


thanks

Interesting that the age of T in the Levant is 13500 years ago
- the southern Arabian peninsula 2500 years ago
- Egypt is 11000 years ago


L and its "missing" 20000 years from T would be interesting to find out

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## bicicleur

> thanks
> 
> Interesting that the age of T in the Levant is 13500 years ago
> - the southern Arabian peninsula 2500 years ago
> - Egypt is 11000 years ago


interesting, where did you find this info?


[/QUOTE] L and its "missing" 20000 years from T would be interesting to find out[/QUOTE]

please note, L2 and L1b are missing on the YFull Tree
L2 is European

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## Sile

[QUOTE=bicicleur;456245]interesting, where did you find this info?


paper by Luis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/


it was 1600 years ago for the southern arabian area....so I was wrong


but since the Dulik 2011 paper has found 38% of T inKazakhs
from

Kosh-Agachski Raion which is part of the Altai Republic, Russia...........




then , somewhere around north of the himalyans seems the best fit for the break of T and L

Also - the TL union has origins in the sind valley of Kashmir ( north India )



The one issue I have for myself as per my markers is that it states.......... 
Possible time of origin
19,000-30,000 years BP[1]

Possible place of origin
West Asia[1][2]

Ancestor
LT

Descendants
T-M193




Testing from 3 different companies has found I am negative for T-M193 , but I am positive for the LT marker P326

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## bicicleur

have you been tested for T-M184 ? or L-M20 ?
I see you state your Y-DNA as CTS12108 ; where does this SNP fit in the tree ?
the Luis paper is dated 2004 and based on STR analyses, I don't think their ages are very accurate
I associate T with cattle herders
maybe they domesticated the auroch in Anatolia 10500 years ago and the zebu in India 7000 years ago
so, I think T entered Africa with cattle coming from Anatolia 8000 - 8500 years ago (just like R1b-V88 did)
you can see in the YFull tree, each of the 3 branches T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 have expansions between 8 and 9000 years ago
and T seems to have spread very far : Africa, India, Arabia, Europe, but I don't find anything about the spread of the subclcades
do you have sources for that?

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## Sile

> have you been tested for T-M184 ? or L-M20 ?
> I see you state your Y-DNA as CTS12108 ; where does this SNP fit in the tree ?
> the Luis paper is dated 2004 and based on STR analyses, I don't think their ages are very accurate
> I associate T with cattle herders
> maybe they domesticated the auroch in Anatolia 10500 years ago and the zebu in India 7000 years ago
> so, I think T entered Africa with cattle coming from Anatolia 8000 - 8500 years ago (just like R1b-V88 did)
> you can see in the YFull tree, each of the 3 branches T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 have expansions between 8 and 9000 years ago
> and T seems to have spread very far : Africa, India, Arabia, Europe, but I don't find anything about the spread of the subclcades
> do you have sources for that?


Ftdna and 23andme do not test for T-M184 ( well they do not give your answers for it , it is presumed ) they test for T-M70, but natgeno did and I am T-M184+ ................ftdna still did not accept this after I transferred my natgeno to them ............they state , it was not necessary to update my tree

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post450991

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## Sile

Looking through the amended *Paolo Francalacci* sardinian paper, 
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1756-0500/8/174

I found that of all the T1a in Sardinia , only 2 where from the T1a-L131 branch, all the others where from the T1a-L208 branch *L208/PAGE2 * L905formed 14900 ybp, TMRCA 8600 ybp

*All where L905( apart form the L131 ones )

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