# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Kosovo Albanians Haplogroups?

## Dale Cooper

I was wondering is there any data about haplogroups of Kosovo albanians because I'm interested to see is there any big difference between them and albanians from Albania? Because on this table there is nothin about Kosovo yet: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

----------


## Eldritch

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full

This is the only one i can find from Kosovo Albanians.

----------


## FBS

This is from wikipedia:

A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[91] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total:

*N*
*E-M78**
*E-V13*
*E-M81*
*E-M123*
*J2*
*I*
*R1b*
*R1a*
*P*

114
1.75%
43.85%
0.90%
0.90%
16.70%
7.96%
21.10%
4.42%
1.77%


J2 should be represented by J2b2. We did the tests for our family (parents/uncles) and we got the E-V13 & J2b2 Y-DNA according to 23andme. mtDNA is much more diverse (J1c3, H5, H13a1...,I1a1). For at least 500 years (even longer) we have the identity of the northern Albanians/Kosovar and Malcor (highlanders).

----------


## zanipolo

> This is from wikipedia:
> 
> A study by Peričić et al. in 2005[91] found the following Y-Dna haplogroup frequencies in Albanians from Kosovo with haplogroup E1b1b and its subclades representing 47.4% of the total:
> 
> *N*
> *E-M78**
> *E-V13*
> *E-M81*
> *E-M123*
> ...


compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

----------


## FBS

> compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html


I do not see that they had any sample of Kosovo Albanians.

----------


## Beast

Seems like Albanians have more E, J2 and R1b than their slavic neighbors. Could it be that R1b comes from Celts?

----------


## MOESAN

I don't see why Celts could have had so a strong influence on Albanians and Kossovars compared to other balkanic people?
surely these Y-R1b are of old stock (H-35, upstream to Y-R-L51 or L11?) - if I-E (not proved) it could be a leg of Thracians??? (albania language is associated nowaday to dacian-thracian-illyrian satem) - I'm more confident about partial celtic+italic Y-R1b's in Croatia...

----------


## Beast

The region of Dardania was inhabited by Celts, Thracians and Illyrians. there were Celtic tribes that assimilated and were later in time seen as illyrians) by historians.

----------


## Malsori

> Seems like Albanians have more E, J2 and R1b than their slavic neighbors. Could it be that R1b comes from Celts?


Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.

----------


## Eldritch

> Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.


It must be said that the J2 in Albanians is rarely found outside them in the Balkans. Most of it it's J2b2.

----------


## Yetos

> The region of Dardania was inhabited by Celts, Thracians and Illyrians. there were Celtic tribes that assimilated and were later in time seen as illyrians) by historians.




According Myths and History we have 

1) A possible devastasion of Celts Before Hommer at Kadmus times (1500-2000 BC) which create a retaliation movement of Ilyros and its Pelasgians That mix is considered the genesis of Illyrians, 
as Son of Illyros is mentioned the Keltos (Celt) so we see a connection with Celts

1b) Bryges (Phrygians) are mentioned by some as celtic Brigandi but in ancient times their taxonomy was as Thracians or para-Thracians


2) Scordisci Serdi Galates (gauls) 

In historical times Celts manage to penetrate Illyria even Greece and Delphi, 
the term Scordisci is Celtic and means scattered it is probably an esonyme 
Scordisci are mentioned to draw back at Nis Serbia parts of Kossovo and then pass Istros (Dunav) 
as Scordisci origin are mentioned some Byzantine Emperrors like Ioustinianus 
Scordisci are also considered to Build the white city (Belingrand)
we don't have linguistic evidence of Scordisci but we know that had society and inner construction like the La Tene ones

Serdi are mention to settled around Sofia Bulgaria 

Galates after the repel of their entrance to Greece are mention to settled in ROmania first, then to Bulgaria in Scanza Mountains (today area of Haskovo till sea) and then moved to minor Asia next Pontic Mountains, 
WE know that they Speak a language simmilar to Belgae


so as a conclusion in what ROmans say Illyricum there was Celtic activity, 
Greeks mention Half Pannoni Basin as the land of Keltos, 
in what we call Illyricum proprie Dicti (Illyria) we don't have historical data about Celtic
but we have myths that mention Celts (early or proto -Celts since we speak about 1500-2000) and Pelasgians are the fathers of Illyrians

The Historical data show a possible settlement of Scordisci to Kossovo areas since their center area was Naissus. as also that scordisci passed North of Dunav and even build the city upon which Belingrad is Built, 
Scordisci at 2nd 3rd Century AD are considered to be fully Romanised and mainly serve Roman Legions especially the IV Flavia,

THERE IS POSSIBILITY THAT SOME Latinophones, AROMANI (VLACH) POPULATION IN THE AROUND AREA TO BE FROM SCORDISCI ORIGIN

----------


## FBS

If we compare the data given in Eupedia for Albanians of Albania:

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0


*Region/Haplogroup*
I1
I2* + I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J* + J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N




We see that Kosovar Albanian have a much higher E-V13 and higher R1b (according to Pericic et al. table on my previous post). I strongly believe that E-V13 is a Dardanian (Dorian) marker and J2 Illyrian (Cadmus, Illyros).

----------


## Eldritch

Actually Eupedia data on Albanians should be refreshed.

----------


## Yetos

> If we compare the data given in Eupedia for Albanians of Albania:
> 
> *Albania*
> 2
> 12
> 1.5
> 9
> 16
> 1.5
> ...


considering History, especially the Illyrian wars with Romans, we know that huge devastation from sea was done to mountain Illyria and Dardania.
It is more possible that the alliance of Greek colonies with Pelasgoid Illyrians against Romans is the 'father' of E HGroup in Dardania, which multiplied and in late byzantine and ottoman era spread around, 

the spread of E hg in balkans show that once was near sea, the vital element of Pelasgians, but the expand in Moesia and Mt Pindus might be a later spread when Albanians had some priviledges, 

So I beleive that E is more Pelasgian connected Illyrians and Phoenicians and Greek colonists(also share Pelasgian), 

Interesting would be the % of R1b among these populations as also its subclades, 
the most interesting whould the analogy of minor Asian Hettit M-23 which is considered basical in Mycenean populations (E-V13 + R1b M-23)

The J2b is strange case since exist also in Thessaly Makedonia and parts of Italy in parts of Bulgaria and European Turkey and in parts of Albania as interesting amounts,

----------


## neonimrod

Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology this is what I have come with so far:
1) That the E 
Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to the usage of 
Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the 
Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called 
Caucasians)
2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by 
Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
3) 
Googled I found that the E-V13 gene pool are Original Roman-Trojan genes (Since 
Saturn Jupiter and Zeus are associated with Nimrod, a descendant of Cush via 
Ham, and histories of Nimrod seeking refuge on the 7 hills of Rome and from that 
point on the Original Romans called him Saturn, Originating the Feast of 
Saturnilia on December 25)
4) The E-V13 gene root Ancestor was Nimrod the 
Powerful Hunter Before the Lord also called as well the Orion, Zeus and 
Jupiter﻿ and Saturn etc
5) Ham would be the E Halopgroup ==> 
Cush (Cronus)= E-M35 ==> Nimrod (Zeus)= E-V13 ==> Dardanus = Dardania 
==> Tros = Troy (Trojans)==> Ilus =(Illum) Illyria (Albania)==> Latinus 
= Latin (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos) Lateo "to lie hid" or the hidden 
one)==> Romulos = Founder of the Roman Empire ==> Me an E-V13
6) The 
Clue for my findings were the Ethiopians and the Yemeni E-M35﻿ as 
they fit perfectly the Biblical account of Being the descendants of 
Cush
7) Famous Hamitics E-M35 include Albert Einstein, The wright 
Brothers, and even Hittler. However looks like throughout history there has been 
lots of converts of this Hamitic Branch to Judaism which makes 40% of the Jewish 
Population on the Ashkenazi and Sephardi groups

----------


## zanipolo

> I do not see that they had any sample of Kosovo Albanians.


its the one called FYROM-albanians , because you take areas into consideration. so, these are northern macedonia and southern kosovo. Its because northern kosovo is serbian and if this is taken into account ( which it is not in the chart) then it distorts the data.

you do not base ancient dna based on today's national borders. Correct data would be based on cultural borders

----------


## zanipolo

> Nope. It probably comes from IE Illyrians who came from Central Europe anyway. EV13 and J2b2 are the assimilated Paleo-Balkanites.


2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .

but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed

----------


## Malsori

> 2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .
> 
> but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed


There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.




> Combining the DNA, the Bible and Roman and Greek Mythology this is what I have come with so far:
> 1) That the E 
> Halopgroup is Hamitic or descendants of Ham (similar to the usage of 
> Jews for Semites using for it the Biblical Character Shem, or similar to the 
> Biblical character Japheth which his descendants now are called 
> Caucasians)
> 2) I Read a good book called the Faces of the Hamitic People by 
> Khamit Raamah Kush which I found let some light to my Hamitic roots
> 3) 
> ...


What you have done here with your points taken here is making a fool out of yourself.

----------


## MOESAN

leaving some stupefying elucubrations on the side, I give here an humble thought of mine: presence at a point of History of some tribe (celtic or else) for some time in a region is not sufficient for heavy demic imput - some mercenaries sets of bigger tribes ran Europe on every direction, settling here and there and getting away after, and even if sometimes they kept some of their proper wives with them, they did not populate whole Europe with their warriors Y-DNA (only leave some genes) - study the subclades for big HG's is still and more necessry -

----------


## zanipolo

> There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Link me in which you refer, 

Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.

The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more

----------


## Beast

> Link me in which you refer, 
> 
> Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.
> 
> The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more


So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.

And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.

And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.

Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.

And Illyrians, Greeks, Epirots, Thracians, ancient-macedonians etc. mixed and intermarried eachother all the time. I think this is enough to explain the close genetic similarities between Albanians and Greeks.

The I2a in greeks and Albanians comes from mixing with South-Slavs. Intermarriages that have been done through time. The Malesors have intermarried Montenigrins through time. Maybe this is why I2a is high in there. The E in Serbs also comes from Albanians that have been Serbianized and these things have actually happened. Albanians that became Serbs and vice versa. Also we are forgetting the Ottoman empire where not only Turks were generals and Pashas but also Albanians, Bosnians, Serbs, Greeks etc. and haplogroups might of spread through this way too.

Why is E so low in Croatians? Maybe because they never had any real contact with Albanians and Greeks?

And I agree with the other post. haplogroups might of come at different times from different areas. But is it a coincidence that celts seem to of been R1b and they were in the Balkans and R1b is also found there in high amounts. is it a coincidence?

So with that logic the I2a in Albanians and Greeks might not come from south slavs, but it's found in high amounts in south slavs, so why not assume it came from them?

----------


## Beast

As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.

I can't post links.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi


I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.

The Serboi settled in todays Poland in a place and this place became known as white Serbia or white Croatia. meaning West. i.e West-Serbia. because they lived in West Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/white_serbia

They became slavicized in culture and language. intermarriages were done. hence why r1a is found too. i think slavs were originally r1a carriers.

Then they migrated to the Balkans.

I think there was also a Scythian or Sarmatian tribe called Hrvati.

There is still a group of people in Poland that are Known as Sorbs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

(paste that in)

Could there be done any genetic test on these or has there been done?

Also I2a seems to be high in east Ukraine and east Romania (close to the black sea)

Sarmatians settled there too.

----------


## zanipolo

> So what your trying to tell me is that Romans and Greeks called them Illyrians even though they were different people? No. The Illyrians were called Illyrians because they spoke the same language and culture. Even though they didn't have a civilized nation like the Greeks and Romans. of course they didn't call themselves
> Illyrians this is a name from Greeks and Romans, but for some reason Liri means free in Albanian. Anybody know if this word is from Latin or Greek? And yes, they vaged war against eachother. There was an arguement that Albanians don't have war against eachother.. ummm Albanians have blood feuds against eachother more than any other Balkan nation, statistics from the 90's shows 3000 people died a year due to Blood feuds between Clans. And this is probably still the same but the murders are not recorded because nobody reports to the police. It's an eye for an eye, they take the law into their own hands, and if you must know the region of Tropoja in North Albania, bordering Kosovo.. is the most lawless place in the Balkans. Police have no control over that place, it's run by outlaws. illyria was like the wild wild west? well Albania is known for being europes wild wild west. Still this isn't any arguement at all.. And if Illyrians were sea people? So what? They couldn't all of been. they lived in a mountanious region, at some point in time when invadors came they must of moved to the mountains? Some Illyrian tribes are described by historians as mountanious people. Maybe this is where the Albanian language developed. also Marin Barleti accompanyon of Skanderbeg, a historian and priest from 16th century wrote in this book that Albanians were descendants of Epirotans and ancient-macedonians, he claimed Albanians at one point in time lived in Pelponnese and Macedonia but imigrated north. (Believe it or not but Alexander the great and Pyro of Epirus are national heroes in Albania. They named their currency after them from 1912. Lek which means Alexander. with his head on the currency but yet people are ignoring this all the time, you are ignoring what Medieval Albanians wrote. Albanians didn't make this up, Albanians aren't claiming these things just for national pride but these claims date back 600-700 years ago and interesting enough neither greece, or Bulgarians or whatever fyroms are claimed this ancestry at that time it was only medieval Albanians that did this it was not until after independence from Ottoman empire that FYROMS and Greeks started claiming these people and groups. ) Show me a source of Greeks or Bulgarians during Byzantium empire claim ancient macedonians and Epirots? Alexander and Pyrro? These group of people were only celebrated by medieval Albanians ... but still this is nothing, so many unsolved questions.. the thing is we don't know the truth. anything could of happened in the Balkans. who knows maye Albanians don't have one single ancestor? But I think the problem that we are facing in this mystery to find out the truth, the biggest problem is the arrival of the Slavs, history records this.. I don't know if illyrians mixed with them or what happened, but I think some Illyrians escaped to the mountains, but if the Slavs hadn't come there I think this wouldn't of been such a mystery to find out who is descendant from what group, but now we got so many countries like Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Croatia, Albania etc and we don't know for sure.
> 
> And by some historians Dardania isn't even included in Illyria. Seems like Dardanians had their own state and were more civilized. But they were Thraco-Illyrian. So if you mean claiming Kosovo as a land. I don't think south slavs are descendants of Dardanians. If they are Illyrians then why do they speak Slavic? Did Illyrians accept Slavic language but didn't mix with Slavs? No. I don't think so. Because where else did the Slavs go? The Slavs didn't just leave their language in the Balkans and move. history records itself that they settled exactly where today Croatia and Serbia is. Illyrians spoke the same language, that we know for sure, it was closely related to Thracian, some say in Dardania the language became a blend of Thracian and Illyrian. I think during the arrival of the Slavs Illyrians settled for the mountains. And like 80% of Albania is mountains. So how could Illyrians not of been mountanious people? You can't live there without being a highlander unless you live on the sea.
> 
> And Dacian is also included with close connection to Illyrians and Thracians. Dacian-Thracian, Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian.
> 
> Another theory by a professor is that the ancestors of Albanians lived in central europe.
> 
> ...


I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
2) the Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
3) the Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
4) the Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
5) the Pannonians in the northern lands

These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.

The reason there is no E in northern Illyricum is because they are different people, different languages, different customs, as an example, the Liburni had only queens as rulers and tatooed their necks, no others did this.

you can tell form this link, chart 2, that certain haplogroups change as you move north south east and west
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

----------


## Beast

Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.

Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.

But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.

Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.

----------


## zanipolo

> As for I2a in South-Slavs, I don't think it's from Illyrian or Thracian. I actually think it came from Sarmatians and Scythians. My theory is that the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated from the Caucasus to Ukraine and to Central Europe. There is a Sarmatian tribe that was called Serboi. They were Iranic speaking.
> 
> I can't post links.
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi
> 
> 
> I think Croatians and Serbs have the same ancestor. Some Croats still trace their roots from Iranic.
> ...


Sarmatians, Alans would have arrived as part of the Ostrogoths , who resided on the northern parts of the black sea for 200 years,( from 200CE to 400CE or thereabouts) then they invaded the balkans and Italy and stayed there for 200 years

----------


## Beast

look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.

As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.

Thraco-illyrian became one language...

Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?

Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.

But the name Illyrian was originally a tribe from todays albania that came in contact with Greeks but then Greeks started using this Illyrian name for all the people around there that spoke the same language.

And interesting enough allot of the findings of Illyrian writings etc. have been found in greek

----------


## Beast

So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.

----------


## Beast

What I'm saying is the Serboi tribe from Sarmatia settled in West-Poland, they called this place white-Serbia (White: West so West Serbia) they became slavicized in culture, they stayed there assimilated, and then the Slavs moved to the Balkans.

----------


## Beast

Also, I am Albanian from Kosovo. to be exact from the Drenica valley. This region has a history of resistance against Ottoman Turks and Serbs. And I wonder what result I would get if I did a genetic test. According to the map of Dardania in ancient times, the Drenica valley was located in the middle of ancient Dardania, today it's in north-kosovo.

Also, I don't care if Albanians are Illyrians or not. I'm not claiming to be one.. I'm here because I find it interesting. I'm not here to argue or spread nationalism. But I find this very interesting.

Balkan history is a mysterium.

----------


## Beast

I know this is about Kosovar Albanians but here is some interesting stuff I found about South-Slavs, I remember even some member here talking about this that South-Slavs originally might of originated from the border north italy, and close. around czechia.. Maybe this deserves it's own thread.


Facts that support this theory are, the sharing of the linguistical grammar structure between the West Slav (Czech, Slovak, Polish) and the South Slav (Serb and Croat) language, that differs from the grammar structure of the Bulgarian language that also belongs to the South Slavic group, the toponyms found in the region, north Bohemia (Srbsko, Srbská Kamenice etc. as well as the toponyms containing the ethnonym Chorvat, in the adjacent regions). Lusatian Slavic population still bearing the name Serbs in their native language. The region of Bohemia was known as the region of the Boii to the Romans, as well as the Byzantines, after the Celtic Boii tribe settling the region before Slavs. Byzantines often described people by the region (Tribalians, Thracians, Illyrians) they inhabited, eventhough the eponymous tribes were long extinct, rather than by the native names of the tribes they were carrying. The region called Boiheim by the western Rome (German suffix -heim) and Boika by the eastern Rome (Slavic suffix -ka) relates to the current region of Bohemiaand corresponds to the ancestral region of _White Serbia (stated as Boika in the De Administrando Imperio, chapter 32).

__"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking a moiety of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination."..._
_..."Now, after some time these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. But when they had crossed the river Danube, they changed their minds and sent a request to the emperor Heraclius, through the military governor then governing Belgrade, that he would grant them other land to settle in."..._
_..."And since what is now Rascia (Serbia) and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumi and Trebounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries had been made desolate by the Avars (for they had expelled from those parts the Romans who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium), therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries, and they were subject to the emperor of the Romans; and the emperor brought elders from Rome and baptized them and taught them fairly to perform the works of piety and expounded to them the faith of the Christians."..._
_..."And since Bulgaria was beneath the dominion of the Romans * * * when, therefore, that same Serbian prince died who had claimed the emperor's protection, his son ruled in succession, and thereafter his grandson, and in like manner the succeeding princes from his family"..._

-De Administrando Imperio chapter 32, Constantine VII[7]





According to the historical and archeological data present at time, Serbs and Sorbs (South and North Serbs), were around 1400 years ago the same Polabian Slavic tribe. At the beginning of the 7th century it came to a split in between the tribe, the northern Serbs that stayed (now known as Lusatian Sorbs or Wends) were largely assimilated by the greater Slavic tribes (Poles, Czechs) as well as non-Slavic nations (Germans) immensely influencing their language and culture by the Polish and the German one. The southern Serbs on the other hand, conquered and assimilated lesser Slavic tribes, as well as the romanised Illyrian and Thracian population[9] of the Roman empire in Southeastern Europe, into their own Slavic tribe, thus laying the foundation for the medieval Serbian state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

turkey in the text I think it means magyars from hungary, as it says.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't want to revisit this again but the Hungarian Alfoldy ,English Wilkins and others all state the same 5 power tribes of the Illyrians as the Romans did
> Illyria identified as five principal onomastic provinces within the Illyrian area:
> 1) the "real" Illyrians Autariates, south of the river Neretva in Dalmatia and extending south to Drin river besides Epirus
> 2) the Dalmatians, who occupied the middle Adriatic coast between the Autariates to the south and the Liburnians to the north
> 3) the Liburnians, a branch of Venetic in the northeast coastal Adriatic area
> 4) the Iapodes, who live north of the Dalmatians and inland of the coastal Liburnians
> 5) the Pannonians in the northern lands
> 
> These are the same as what the Romans called them, of course there are minor tribes inside each of these.
> ...


that is correct. 
these are the Illiricum tribes and only the first first Autariates are connected with what Greeks call Illyrians, and surely with today Albanian population.

----------


## Yetos

> look at my other post where I explained to the I2a. This theory is supported by researchers that I2a came from Sarmatians that were slavicized from Central Europe. Called Serboi. You don't find it interesting? They called their place White-Serbia and White Croatia. But interesting enough nobody is picking up on this.
> 
> As for the Illyrians. They spoke the same language and had the same culture, they were different tribes yes, but they were seen by outsiders as the same people this is why they were called Illyrians. I really don't understand your point. You are also forgetting Dardanians were Illyrians. but mixed also with Thracians.
> 
> Thraco-illyrian became one language...
> 
> Illyrians didn't speak different languages, they spoke the same... you don't call a people the same name if they are different in culture and language. if they spoke different language how did they communicate when they reunited against macedonians and other neighbors?
> 
> Yes, they were different tribes. they didn't consider themselves Illyrians.
> ...


the case of I2a in Dalmatian ALps is written in a special post, it seems central EUropean subclade origin, you can read the posts in the forum, they almost say the same you describe.

Correct, Ancient Illyrians had the same curse of Thracians and Greeks, Thracian in Greek means broken, divided,
the historical data give same for Illyrians major division in Dardanians and Illyro thracian culture didvided in major 2 tribes, and Illyria proprie divided to 4-6 tribes like Taulanti Autariates etc

The different languages is not among Ilyrian tribes but among Illyricum tribes, 
Iapodes Liburnians are not Illyrians to ancient Greeks, the are named as Illyrians from Roman Illyricum
Pannonians Dalmatians might be relative to the one component that synthesize Illyrians, the one I called Celtic, which surely is Central European, that component with the Pelasgian is the basic components of Illyrian (Albanian population) nations.

hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,

Until second century in Illyria there was the tomp of Illyrus, I beleive that Illyrians would be proud to Have it and use the name, that was until Christianity times, In christianity times except the destruction of ancient Greek monuments we also have destruction of Thracian and Illyrian monuments, 
All people in East Roman empire were named Romans and only Christianity was allowed, 
it is even possible that some Illyrians to be accused for paganism.

so for me Illyri is an esonyme, an endonyme meaning the sons of Illyros, 
consider that same philosophy we find in Danaoi (sons of Danae) Makednoi (sons of Makedon) etc


So the population of Albania and Kossovo at a big % seems to be the old Illyrian, the main problem is the Language, 
Albanian language show elements of all neighborhood and not IE Pelasgian, but follows aspirrations of Northern languages, like Germanic Slavic Baltic, that is making it a more North-East language than the area of today Albania, 
The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations, 
Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language
The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania
a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation
The Maniakis army (Arbanites) 
the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles

The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one, 

for example in some areas in Makedonia still call Slavic Makedonians and Serbs as Triballi, 
we all say Bulgaria but it is a mix of Thracian Greeks Slavic and Turkic (Bulgars) population
Greece a mix of ancient Greeks Romans but also includes Slavic Bulgaric Moesian and Arbanitan population
Consider Turkey, how many older populations exists there.
yet today majority speaks Turkish and accept Islam as religion,

----------


## MOESAN

> Also, looking at it again, the R1b in Albanians might not of come from Proto-Celts but rather from the Roman empire. We are forgetting the Roman Empire.
> 
> Come to think of it the R1b in Britain might also be from Romans.
> 
> But of course these might be different subclades or how it's called.. excuse me for my english.
> 
> Somehow the Albanians were Catholics and South Albanians Greek Orthodox, some still are. meaning they must of been around during Roman empire.. they couldn't of migrated there after, or else it would of been historically recorded.


_I repeat, for I know Y-R1b in Balkans (except in some parts of Croatia) is of very different subclades compared to the celtic countries ones_
_Y-DNA of Roman soldiers and some marchants is surely very light among present day celtic countries of Brittain,even if not unsignificant -_ 
_North-West Balkans population share HG's and other genes with South Balkans or N-E Balkans, but in very different proportions - so I see there some mixings but some different origins at the same time_
_for linguists it seams that now populations from North Illyria WAS closer to venetic tribes than to true illyrian or thracian-illyrian ones -_ 
_albanian would seam send there by a previously more eastern population (some phonetic links with Dacians or Getians) according to specialists, yet related even if not too closely, to thracian - I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???_

----------


## Malsori

> Link me in which you refer, 
> 
> Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.
> 
> The naming of Illyria was firstly a greek name and later used by the Romans to indicate varoius tribes/people who had different cultures and languages in a geographical area named Illyria/Illyricum. Its like the Sarmatians where all different peoples and their huge lands had different races..........another is the Golden Horde and many many more


I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too. 




> _ I suppose that the Tosques are more autochtonous than the Geghs (+ Kossovars) and less "albanian" by the fact: Epirots??? links with Macedonians???_


Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.

----------


## zanipolo

> I ask you to link your study and you came out with the same ad-nauseum fact. Linking Albanians with Illyrians have no real land pretensions. It is just as it is. Albanians have preserved their language and the preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.


As per post 20 , link me who you referred too as ......... Because the usual thing that happens is anything the placed is ridiculed by nationalistic sentiment

----------


## zanipolo

> There is no data on Illyrian DNA. Enlighten me and post that data but before you do that don't link that Croatian pseudo-study pdf crap please.
> 
> 
> What you have done here with your points taken here is making a fool out of yourself.


link it , I want to read this crap

----------


## neonimrod

I find interesting that although Shem or Sem for Semite is fictional supposedly as Ham or the Hamitics, they still chose to use the term Semitics?

Science, Religion and even Mythology have always been manipulated by certain groups, and on science on the Genetic side they claim the E-V13 as farmers, what a doubious claim, then the Bible explicitly talks about Cush and Nimrod, yet He is trying to be discredited by the Semites and the Japhetics
and Mythology even Saturn is clearly Nimrod, they picture him totally as anything but an E-v13

the whole world is divided in the following way:
Either you are
1) Hamitic (Halopgroups D or E or O among others)
2)Semitic (Halopgroups I or J)
3)Caucasian-aryan-Japhethic (R or P or Q or G Halopgroups)

yet over and over we see the last two groups falsely claim the the Hamitic achievements as follows:

The Semites falsely claim as Semites the following:
Albert Einstein He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Shalom Ben Amram Samaritan High Priest He is an E-M35 a Hamitic

Japhethics or Caucasians Falsely Claim as Caucasians the Following:
The Wright Brothers they are E-M35 Hamitics
Hittler He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Pope Paul V He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
Caravaggio He is an E-M35 a Hamitic
So see guys E-M35 comes in White Brown Yellow Black
And it can be found in:
Europe Latin America North America the Middle East Asia and Africa

----------


## Malsori

> link it , I want to read this crap


You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.




> 2007 data on illyrian dna has nothing for kosovo and on albania it gets only 27% ( E3b1-M178 ...renamed now to something else ) and 14.30% ( J2-M172) of illyrian from the Taulantii tribe of illyrians. The kosovo where , if they existed there in the ancient times , the dardanians .
> 
> but there is speculation that the Taulanti where Epirotes and not illyrian ...........this is still being discussed


^ Here is what you exactly said in your post. I just know there is a Croatian pseudo-scientific paper about Y-DNA distribution among Illyrian tribes. So your assumption comes from that i guess if not link the 2007 datas upon Illyrians.

----------


## MOESAN

Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania. 

_amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree - 
I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?_

----------


## kesi

> Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania.


can you say what are these sources, I would like to know where these slavic settlements were in south of Albania

----------


## kesi

[QUOTE=Yetos;398299]



> hmmm Do toy suggest that Illyria is an exonyme? Historical facts show that used the name of Illyros so it could be an esonyme,


sorry for intruding just wanted to say that whether Illyria is an exonym is open to interpretation. To us Albanians it's easy to understand the word as "i lir"=free one (person)




> The only Northern population that is known in Albania is the Goranjie but they do not seem to enter these aspirations, 
> Goranjie population does not seem to give these aspirations to Albanian language


I would like to know what is this population, do you mean people called the Gora people? the muslim slavs?




> The only Historical data that can explain this phenomenon is the Getan colonists, especially in Dardania as also Germidava and others in Albania a possible Visigothic or ostrogothic influence or devastation, The Maniakis army (Arbanites) , the Hunjiades army which we know settled in Albania after the battles


people discussing Albania have gone through all the above alternatives but they do not have factual support they are simply theories, some even wild ones.




> The truth is that all modern Balcanic nationalities comes from a mix of an older, with a new one,


agree

----------


## neonimrod

All Humanity is divided among 3 lineages as follows:

1) Hamtics: 
would be Halopgroup DE O > Halopgrou
D and Halopgroup E Halopgroup 0(Original Romans=E-V13, Latin Americans, Egyptians, Chinese, Ethiopians, Libyans, Morrocans, Palestinians...)

2)Semites:
IJ (S2) > J (M304) > J1 (M267) and J2 (M175) (Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, Iraquis, Chechens, Jordans...)

3)Japhethics-Caucasians would be 
P (M45) > R (M207) > R1 (M173) > R1b (M343) > R1b1 (P25) > R1b1c (M269) (Rusians, Slavics, Celtics)
P (M45) > Q (M45) (Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, Native Americans)

----------


## zanipolo

> You were the one who mentioned about study upon Illyrian Y-DNA not me. Don't act goofy. I don't know the name of the study exactly since i didn't even take and read seriously.


Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos

Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

----------


## MOESAN

I 'm lost among all these biblic references... Romans = Chineses? OK, no problem, I'm going to take some medical pills with a taste of fresh water...
joke?

----------


## Malsori

> Well whats the point then, you make decisions without reading anything..............I already posted this once before on another thread, its from Anthropos congress written by Anita Sujoldzic and Marjeta Kos
> 
> Just check my link on modern day albanians DNA 2008
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title


No i didn't made decisions without reading since i have putted an eye to that pseudo-study. It is crazy to argue about the percentages of tribes of rather not well documented ancient peoples. You people give the impression as if they have tested the Illyrian skulls.

----------


## zanipolo

> No i didn't made decisions without reading since i have putted an eye to that pseudo-study. It is crazy to argue about the percentages of tribes of rather not well documented ancient peoples. You people give the impression as if they have tested the Illyrian skulls.


yes they tested some skulls as part of the skulls found in illyrian helemts ( not all helmets had skuills)

http://ffri.academia.edu/martinablec...lyrian_helmets

----------


## Eldritch

> Tosks have absorbed Slavic blood. They have high I2a2-Din and R1a1a(in Balkans much of R1a1a seems to be of Slavic origin). I think it approaches 25-30%. There is also historical sources of Slavic settlements in South Albania. 
> 
> _amazing what you are saying (writing) here!
> a lot of Slavs descendants among Tosks? I partially disagree - 
> I2a1b-Din was not arrived there with Slavs only - there was a lot of bearers among Balkans populations before yet - Y-R1a is common among Slavs but some of them could be older in Balkans too (even some Hellenes could have hadsome variants of Y-R1a) - I do not know where your data are coming from, but Albanians as a whole do not show too much R1a (about 9%?) nor too much I2a1b (about 14%?) - the only very striking difference with Kossovars is about Y-E1b1 by far higher among Kosovars (about 25% to 43%?)... So I do not think that Slavs influence is very heavy in S-Albanians (it is confirmed apparently by phenotypes): I should put the % of 10% at most, not discarding history ; I think yet Kosovars are "purest", but alos for other causes: true Albanians was more "central" and they push on previous Epirus populations taking a foot on Adriatic seashores only recently enough - maybe have you some precise data about Tosks and Kosovars?_


albanians.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03...pulations.html

Check here

----------


## Malsori

> yes they tested some skulls as part of the skulls found in illyrian helemts ( not all helmets had skuills)
> 
> http://ffri.academia.edu/martinablec...lyrian_helmets


I am done with you. You are not able to make a distinction between fiction and reality. I cannot believe i must debate basical nonsense.

----------


## Dianatomia

Tosc Albanians are much closer to Greeks in many respects. That makes sense if you consider that the population of Albania around 1600 is estimated to be around 200.000 inhabitants. The Greek colonisation in antiquity could have had an impact. 

Genetically Northern Greece has 21% of E. Central and South Greece have around 29 %. Tosk Albanians have 28 %, very similar to the Greeks. While Ghegh Albanians with 42% are in a league of their own. Also, central and northern Greece have around 4.5-6% of G, Tosc Albanians have 3.5% while Gheghs have only 1%. So Kosovars who, if we could argue that they have mixed less, have almost no G. 

Toscs have far higher frequencies of 'I' compared to both Greeks and Kosovars. Greeks in general have around 12%, Gheghs have 9%, while Toscs have almost 26%. Very similar to South Slavs. However, we should note the Northern Greeks have 22% of 'I' also. 

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/...pulations.html

----------


## MOESAN

> albanians.png
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03...pulations.html
> 
> Check here


it is not too precise for SNPs *but I thank you* - the %s about Y-E1b1 in Ghegs is very high as the one I first saw for Kosovars -other survey give only about 34% I think, but all the way, Ghegs and Kosovars show more Y-E1b than Tosks - 
have a good night ('if you're not sleeping yet!)

----------


## Zemra

Something is really wrong with that study. Jevg and Gabel are just two names used for Gypsies. I don't understand that "all" in the end. All Albanians 12.78% H1? How did they count them? Did they considered 25% of the population Gheg, 25% Tosk, 25% Jevg and 25% Gabel to reach those conclusions? Gypsies are not 50% of the Albanian population. Gypsies are not 50% of any population in Europe. Also the Gheg-Tosk speakers are not equal in number either either. I would say there are more Ghegs (considering Ghegs reside in Kosovo, Northern and Central Albania<not counting Tirana which is a mixed bag, however the families that have been in Tirana before 1921 (when it was made the capital) preserve the two Gheg features: r-to-n and a-to-o shift> while Tosks in South with some minorities in Greece and Italy; division line is Shkumbin river) but I can't find official statistics, so I'm just gonna have to accept those results.

Those are my main concerns, but I don't see a problem with the results ignoring the "all" part.

----------


## Eldritch

> it is not too precise for SNPs *but I thank you* - the %s about Y-E1b1 in Ghegs is very high as the one I first saw for Kosovars -other survey give only about 34% I think, but all the way, Ghegs and Kosovars show more Y-E1b than Tosks - 
> have a good night ('if you're not sleeping yet!)


With that map i wanted to point out the fact that Tosks have an Higher presence of Slavic HG compared to Ghegs.
I is clearly on majority I2a1b, R1a should be higher in South Albania and R1b the reverse.

----------


## kamani

It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken. 
This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous pre indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to 
consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
european populations.

----------


## Yetos

> It all makes sense if one considers the mountains of northern albanian to be the source of E V-13 in the balkans
> Even the illyrian "invaders" with their R1b might not have been able to fully control some of those mountain areas.
> These mountaineous people have even saturated the slavic serbs with some 20% V-13, if I am not mistaken. 
> This makes ghegs closer to the indigenous non indo-european pelasgians, and tosks a more indo-european mix.
> Greeks of today have some J2a cretan influences that albanians dont have. And then there is that mysterious
> 15% J2b2 that both gheg and tosk have in common, which greeks dont have. So there are multiple dimensions to 
> consider and it is hard to tell who the tosks are closer to. But this is a quite commons situation with a lot of
> european populations.


that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants, 

Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war, 
in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE, 

all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.

there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe, 

but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.

better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,

J2 is older than E in Balkans, 
maybe older than any IE R1 that is why we find the Aryan elements in Greek and Thracian languages, 
and that is that creates the question of IE as a Neolithic agriculture language or as steppe Bronze age language, 

to understand that search Varna Necropolis, 
gold mettalurgy and burial rituals exist in Balkans still today, 
and they are much before bronze IE, meaning that Masks of Thracians and Myceneans was not a teppe culture but a Balkanic one, 
the body position in intermediate kingdom follows that also, meaning that Varna affected even Egypt, 
all Kurgans are much later than Varna, so we see that Balkans learn Kurgan people to use gold in burial rituals, 
considering that the oldest Kurgan is in Syria but archaiologists found it much after then might speak about a J2 population that existed in Neolithic Balkans

E in Balkans can not be neolithic for 2 reasons,
1) if is Neolithic in Spain then it should found in France Italy swiss Slovenia Austria Croatia etc. 
but it is not, on the other hand it is found in minor Asia and Greece which surely is tied with Crucciani estimation, 

2) early Neolithic people were G2, isolation of Swiis mountains surely helped G2 to survive the later incoming tribes, if E came from spain why did not create a pocket in Alps? or in North Italy? or in Dinaric Alps or in Tatra and Transylvania?
(the map you show us is definetly clear that E from spain has nothing to do with Balkanic E, instead the existance in Portugal shows a Levantine connection (Phoenician colonise Portugal in antigue time)

3) the mother land of an Hg is the land that has the more diversities, 
How many diversities have Albanian E considering with other Blaknic E and with Levant where probably had a founder effect?
When and where that founder effect happened?
Hg do not follow hydraulic laws neither political desires.


4) Both Armenian Hypothseis (Thracians) and Greco-Aryan can be explained with an Anatolian connection of IE and J2 populations as also with R1b (M21 if I remeber correct)
but they can also be explained if we consider Balkans as homelend of R1, 
the diversities of R1a in Balkans are indeed many, but until today that is consider to happened as a sink phenomena and not as motherland ( I heard it from Macciamo), 
although the case of Sesklo Varna Vinca shows a connection ( The case of pommerania is still a question if being connected with Vinca or with IE)

the key is the Varna Necropolis, which I bet had I1 and J2 population and misses R1b R1a 
or has R1b and R1a and misses J2, but surely misses E
the problem is that 6700 years old radiocarbon estimation does give very reliable results. 

but we see that burial customs with Gold, with hands croossed and the weapons-scepters was not an egyptian custom neither a steppe one but a Balcanic one,
that burial chamber tumulus-kurgan was an anatolian-Near-middle-East custom,



a good question for you, 

if E Y-DNA in Albania is neolithic? and they vanquish in thin air from spain to kossovo? what about their female population? the mtDNA that mate with them?

IE as we know took the women from the locals, 
but mtDNA that can could coperate with E is found in an arc from Spain to Lapland scan, almost misses rest Europe and the in Balkans, 
I wonder how come Neolithic population get married? so Neolithic E Hg of Kossovo people storage their women where? 
why you don't search and that? 
*if E hg in kossovo was neolithic then it should have also the mtDNA that fits with it? at least in perfect % analogy. does it?*

why should we consider kossovo an exception from the rule?
I mean if in Europe bronze people took the women of local neolithic, then same should happened in kossovo, meaning that if kossovo E-V13 was neolithic the mt-DNA should also be from Africa or Levant but in bigger % cause some of the women were taken by IE R1a and R1b. meaning that in Kossovo we must have above 60% African or Levantine mt-DNA. 
Do we?

plz answer that question?

----------


## kamani

> that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants, 
> 
> Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war, 
> in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
> that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE, 
> 
> all data, all genetic results fits with Cruciani and al, and the history of Kadmos father of Illyros.
> 
> there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe, 
> ...


To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.

You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.

All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court? 

To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying. 

Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.

----------


## Yetos

> To my knowledge they haven't found J2 or R1 which is older than V-13 in europe. Correct me with a source if I am wrong.
> 
> You're right to doubt me calling V-13 people as pellasgian because pellasgian has been used as a general term for the people that were in greece before the ancient greeks. But V-13 seems to fit them better that any other hg, an older member of this forum (Maciamo) was of the same opinion in another thread.
> 
> All that stuff about greek mythology is more fiction than fact. Can you bring beowulf tales to a Law Court? 
> 
> To my knowledge mt-DNA is pretty homogenous in this area even though y-DNA might vary, plus combining both to form conclusions is more complex than what you're saying. 
> 
> Why did V-13 vanquish from spain to kosovo? It hasn't really vanquished, it is still one of the most common hg-s in europe. If you're expecting a trail of human fossils accross europe from 10000 yrs ago with clear y-DNA on them, good luck with that.


well lets see, 
the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts, 
Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin, 
meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era) 
the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples, 

now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans, 
Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach, 
the difference among the myth is that Dienekes gives a slowly expand to North while the myth gives a fast, 
both myths are connecting a North Central European Celtic or para-Caltic (the ones named as Illyrians) with an African or levantine admixture, 
now if E of Kossovo is same with E of Greece or one is arcado-Cypriot and the other Sicilian I can not tell, but seems to me that both entered same time about. 

the thread of sea peoples gives some interesting opinions, as also the thread about Pelasgians, 
you can read it, 
Pelasgians seems to be connected with Palestine and Aegean before move to Italy, 
Thoukidides and the rest can help us identify them as the Thyrrenians (Lemnos stele) a west Akkadian, or Aegean phoenician culture, sure is that Falisti Pelasgi Philistines where the same people probably.

now i am not passing a judge so I don't go to court, but when archaiology, Historians, Myths, Genetics, linguistic say the same. I don't need to go to a court, 

to your knowledge Greece has more apreciate mtDNA with E-v13 people than Kossovo.
I am not posting anything about that, since you are an Albanian then you must know about that, cause Zeus10 partners said that Greek are gypsies from Sahara Desert due to some mtDNA evidences and Albanians are Arian race, pure and white Europeans, yet political and not scientific claims always booming bubbles. so ask them in which search that mt-DNA was found in Greece, 

ok you claim a Spanish population which is beside Africa (how long is Gibraltar?) to come to Kossovo having 46% of population while in its path we find none of its trails? not even a pocket in France in Italy Alps etc, and we have in nearby minor Asia and Greece and cyprus Levant Egypt Historical facts, bones, archaiology, linguistic, genetic.

about R1 in Balkans don't ask me, some claim that entered much after Varna Necropolis and is connected with both Mycaneans and Thracians. 
so most possible is that R1a entered much after Varna culture and Vinca,
except if homeland of R1a is Balkans (has enough diversity) 

to understand balkans you must watch the 4rth, 
choirokoitia Cyprus, Sesklo/dimini/ Vinca and Varna, Cyclades and IEans
Balkan has almost zero mesolithic, but from an epipaleolithic pass sudenly to Neolithic (Sesklo archaiological) 
meaning that had 2 waves of agricultural neolithic people, 
probably G2 was the first wave and a second entered at about 5 000 BC, 
the most logical is to be J2-I1 population since R1b and R1a entered at 3000-3500 stoping Varna and Vinca cultures with arsenic Bronze, 
or R1 is local Balcanic- minor Asian that expand to steppe and destroy it shelf, in the last case J2 entered at iron age, 
but from the burial masks we seek for an hg that was in both Varna and then Thracian and Mycenean, that kept the tradition, 
guess which can these be.

----------


## kamani

> well lets see, 
> the greek mythology Gives explanation of Illyrians as mix of Kadmeians and Celts, 
> Herodotus say that Kadmus brother of Egypt brother of Phoenix (E-V13 probably accadocypriot) entered in south Greece and moved to Illyria to stop the incoming Northerns (Celts -R1b?)
> so from the mix of Illyros we find Keltos but as son of Illyros, not in Gaulish land but in Pannoni Basin, 
> meaning that North of Trballi Thracian existed Celtic population, and we see the connection with Illyrians which probably where a sub-clade of Celtinf speaking people (Not Gauls of Roman era) 
> the other myth of Epidameians (today Duress) say about a Cyclop (one eye-Choros -eye of Ra) came from Sicily, Sikelia was full of Phoenician colonies and has also connection with sea peoples, 
> 
> now in homer we also see the existance of Αιθιωψ (ethiopean royal warrior) so we know that these people co-existed with IE in south perts of Balkans, 
> Thebes city of Kadmos is estimated to build around 2000 Bc which fits the myth with Crucciani approach and Dienekes aproach, 
> ...


I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age. 
How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia. 
why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years. 
why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13. 
where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers. 
I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.

----------


## Yetos

> I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age. 
> How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia. 
> why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years. 
> why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13. 
> where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers. 
> I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
> And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.



ok we have a total 12000 years v-13 in balkans that came from Africa to middle east to anatolia to kossovo, to go to Spain, while oposite of Spain in NW Africa, what a road?
and we know that if someone bears 10 children and the other 2 then surely that creates a density of a Hg raising to high %, but what about the law of diversities, 12 000 and how many mutations we have.

----------


## Dale Cooper

> So the name Illirian was actually a word in ''Illyrian'' .. interesting enough liri means free in Albanian.. so this tribe called Ilirian might of called themselves free, or land of the free... so the greeks picked this word up from the tribe and started calling all the tribes around this region that spoke the same language for 'Ilirians' even though they were tribes with their own names.


Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.

One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.

Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.

And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup. 

Jesus Christ... :)

----------


## Yetos

> Or... check this out: Illyrians is not ethnic term if you are reffering on roman province Illricum, why? Because Romans did not care how or how much land will they call by certain name into their province, so "Illyrians" as you call them, and I see many of you on this forum are making the same mistake with this term, were NOT HOMOGENUS people, just like today germans are not homogenus people, just look from today perspective the past in certain cases.
> 
> One side of "Illyrians" those northern one (today Croatia, Bosnia) which were called by tribes: Dalmati, Liburni, Japodi etc, were all carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, later romanized by romans into roman citizens, and after fall of roman empire, they will be named by "Vlachs" from slavic settlers who will mixed with them on such high scale, that today croatian dominant haplogroup is I2a2 42%.
> 
> Now, the southern Illyrians, means from today central Montenegro trough entire Epirus, were carriers of E1b1b haplogroup, from that ancient times, till today.
> 
> And while many of you think that term "Illyrians" should apply on one genetic haplogroup, I cannot believe sometimes that so many of you cannot comprehend that "Illyrians" were not homogenus people, they didn't shared one genetic haplogroup. 
> 
> Jesus Christ... :)



I have wrote about that, 
Pliny gives the difference among Illyria and Illyricum,
a clear definition among Illyria proprie Dicti (Illyria) and the roman province of Illyricum,
Roman always did that,
they name Makedonia also Paionia and Sintica, 
Achaia the Dorian lands etc.

----------


## gashi91

Hi! I am new on this forum. 
I did my test on iGENEA / FTDNA and the results got like this:
Deep clade is still running, most likely to be L-23. Sub-groups "attached" to western europe are tested negative, which left these remaining: 

*R1b1a2a* - L23*
*R1b1a2a1* - L150*
*R1b1a2a1a* - L51*
*R1b1a2a1a1* - P310*

Y-DNA: 
Haplogroup - R1b1a2
Ancient tribe: still to be determined
Region of origin: South-East Europe

mt-DNA:
Haplogroup - U
Ancient tribe: Slavs, Ancient peoples of Italy
Region of origin: Eastern Europe

----------


## gashi91

I am ethnic Albanian from the Republic of Kosovo.

----------


## GloomyGonzales

> I am ethnic Albanian from the Republic of Kosovo.


In fact Albania is a kinda Urhemait for European R1b clades. R1b folks (*Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware*) entered Europe via Albania and it's the place where the first European clade below R1b-L23 sprung up to life. Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.
ImpressedWare.jpg

----------


## gashi91

I didn't know that. Thank you a lot for the information!
I am still waiting for full results from iGENEA. With your expertise, what do you think would be my ancient tribe? Even though I am R1b1a2.

----------


## MOESAN

> that is the problem, you can not combine Pelasgians (sea people) with an epipaleolithic remnant in a mountain area, Pelasgians were intruders in Balkans, not paleolithic or neolithic habitants, 
> 
> Pelasgians enter after IE and before troyan war, 
> in Ilias homers names them as Ethiopeans Αιθιωψ.
> that means that until Troyan war they were in kind of seperation with IE, 
> 
> there is no Neolithic evidence of E HG people except Spain in the rest of Europe, 
> but there is the Cyprus and the Konya that fits with all written histories and Myths, and all genetical scientific conclusions.
> better find who were the Pelasgians, from where they came and where they went, and left behind them,
> ...


_sorry I answer some questions here very late:
I have no very positive answer for bow, but some remarks:
Y-E1b- and subgroup V13 are not absent in northern and central and north-eastern Europe: there are found I think everywhere where danubian neolithic ("rubané"/"LBK" derived) can have prospered - so I think E1b was there at least at 6000 BC and I'm pushed to believe they were even older and put on march by some Y-G2a and some Y-J2b from Near Eastern with teached them rairculture and breeding - in Iberia the question is different because some E1B are of the North Maghreb stock - 
E-V13 coudl well have been doped by founder effect among N-Albanians - but if I remember well, their center of variance were before in SW Bosnia & Montenegro? Correct me if I'm wrong here... if true it coul prove they were almost "autochtonous" at neolithic times
_- _the mt DNA and the autosomals of Neareasterners are not absent from Blakans_: _and some of the so called 'mediterranean' and 'caucasian'/'westeurasian' are there as they are in Iberia at some serious levels, and not only in Italy or Greece_ -
_- I doubt Phoenicians could have had a so heavy genetic influence upon Portugal and Western Europe nor elsewhere out of their cradle - Portugal seams to me having known a dense demic neolithical arrival on the males side as southern France._ _and not only at male level - all the way if Lebanians of today are for the most offsprings of Phoenicians, they would have send varieties of genes close enough to the ones send by Neolithical colonizators-only a detailed survey about downstream Hgs could help -_

----------


## ukaj

> I guess I am not explaining myself fully. I am not saying V-13 came to kosovo from spain, I am saying the opposite, it went to spain from kosovo. Since the spanish one is proved to be from 7000 BC, that makes the one in kosovo even older, probably around 10000 BC, which is well into the stone-age. 
> How did it get to kosovo? probably from the middle east through anatolia. 
> why the fountain was kosovo and not somewhere else in the balkans? because thats what the map visually shows, the epicenter of v-13 seems to be kosovo. That kind of circular spread through multiple countries and languages did not happen overnight, it takes thosands of years. 
> why v-13 has no mutations in kosovo? who is to say that it doesn't. There have been found only a handful of people in the world that have subclades of v-13. 99.9% of V-13 people are just v-13. 
> where does J2 fit into all this? I dont know. If it makes you happy, I am willing to accept that it came around the same time with the first farmers. 
> I do agree with you that Illyrians were a mix of v-13, R1b, and probably some I.
> And lets not get carried away too much with the colors here, V-13 was probably fair or olive-skin since even the big E was born around egypt. I am starting to imagine sub-saharan africans wearing greek battle armor and helmet, and singing rap tunes.


Hear is something for use all.have any albanian in this forum forgot about who most of albanians are an from?most albanians of kosova come from hoti,an kelmendi that fled from turks an slavs pushing their way into north albania,,the birth place of ev-13 couldnt be from north strait away,,because ev-13 migrated from asia minor as did the greeks did from asia minor,I think ghegs were pushed upwards to north albania herzgovinia long time ago maybe pushed upwards of the people settled in greece,,3 wakve came from asia minor to greece then spread,I do know why ghegs have such high percent ev-13 because they only mixed with same tribe as still do..

----------


## Ike

What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?

----------


## kamani

> Hear is something for use all.have any albanian in this forum forgot about who most of albanians are an from?most albanians of kosova come from hoti,an kelmendi that fled from turks an slavs pushing their way into north albania,,the birth place of ev-13 couldnt be from north strait away,,because ev-13 migrated from asia minor as did the greeks did from asia minor,I think ghegs were pushed upwards to north albania herzgovinia long time ago maybe pushed upwards of the people settled in greece,,3 wakve came from asia minor to greece then spread,I do know why ghegs have such high percent ev-13 because they only mixed with same tribe as still do..


It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.

----------


## ukaj

> compare the 2008 article ......2nd chart
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html


I can give you a little idea,The map that you showed is part of kosova an north albania where it is high as i thought,,the kosova albanians well most come from north albania from 2 tribes hoti,an kelmendi,,so the kosova albanians would be the same as north albanians because they are all from same tribes,kosova albanians have such high percent of ev-13 because they only mixed in same tribes as does northerns,,so my question who are greeks if albanians have a high percent of ev-13?an its not southern albanian genetics its gheg albanian,,,

----------


## ukaj

> It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.


I agree 100% with you kelmendi is huge in kosova as you know such as rugova albanians they are from kelmendi an krasnichi is from hoti,,both 2 huge tribe of kosova id say krasnichi is biggest..

----------


## ukaj

> I agree 100% with you kelmendi is huge in kosova as you know such as rugova albanians they are from kelmendi an krasnichi is from hoti,,both 2 huge tribe of kosova id say krasnichi is biggest..


sorry kelmendi is tribe of north albania many albanians from that tribe fled to kosvova,,as well as krasnichi

----------


## ukaj

> What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?


not possiable, both speak same language same tribes same traditions same kanuni..it cant happen

----------


## ukaj

> It looks like we need a genetic study specific to people from Kelmendi, Bajram Curri, Plave dhe Gucie, and Kosovo. I bet they would find higher percentages than the surrounding regions for: E v-13, R1b, and I1. In my opinion the bulk of this mountain population was pushed up there with the coming of the Albanian speaking Indo-Europeans in the Bronze Age. Their old language would be whatever Pelasgians spoke.


I think albanians were their much before the other halpgroups,im not saying this because im albanian im a open minded albanian but when it comes to tribes an people i know ell of..something is interesting is that most albanians of kosova an north albania has green eyes,hazel an blue,but their feature is not seen to others in balkans not surrounding countrys,,im 6ft hazel eyes brown hair,my whole family have blue hazel eyes,,this is common features of tribes of kelmendi an hoti in north albania and in kosova,,but we have less slavnic blood than others in balkans,,this would explain how we lived sicluded in tribes and away from invading slavnics,,an if I2a2 were in balkans before us then we would have more I2 than what we have now witch is not much not even 7% because their is far more slavnics than us in balkan coast.its just logic,,

----------


## ukaj

> With that map i wanted to point out the fact that Tosks have an Higher presence of Slavic HG compared to Ghegs.
> I is clearly on majority I2a1b, R1a should be higher in South Albania and R1b the reverse.


Tosks dont live in tribes,It would make sense tha ghegs would have more slavnic genetics because they lived close to them,,but check out the slavnic migration and where they settled,You may find your answer their,,

----------


## Ike

> not possiable, both speak same language same tribes same traditions same kanuni..it cant happen


 Well, very high percentage of nations that thought to be homogenic are proved to be very heterogenic nowdays. Which language someone speaks, or what one thinks he is, is not of much concern for us if we're making a realistic map. Studies show a J prevalence in Albania, and E dominance in Kosovo.

I think that there is a reasonable doubt that major part of Albanians came form southern Italy.


p.s. I'm using these terms to denotate physical lines of the states, not national identity.

----------


## Eldritch

> Studies show a J prevalence in Albania, and E dominance in Kosovo.


Where are you getting this from?

----------


## Luan

> What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?


There is no such thing as Kosovars. We are Albanians or as we call ourselves Shqiptars from a different reagion.

----------


## Ike

No, you still don't understand. There are only Kosovars, Albanians, Macedonians , Greeks, etc. and they are only defined with the state borders. Those terms are deprived of ethnological element for the purpose of this forum. They are only used for better geographical orienteering. If you can't transcend national identity and have an argumentative debate, you should not participate here.

----------


## Luan

> No, you still don't understand. There are only Kosovars, Albanians, Macedonians , Greeks, etc. and they are only defined with the state borders. Those terms are deprived of ethnological element for the purpose of this forum. They are only used for better geographical orienteering. If you can't transcend national identity and have an argumentative debate, you should not participate here.


You seem to not understand, if you want to be specific of which Ethnicity you are refering in kosova then write Albanians from kosova, or serb from kosova, turks from kosova ect. Thats all I'm telling you.

----------


## Ike

We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view. 

The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).

----------


## Luan

> We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view. 
> 
> The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).


"people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians"
You're making this way to complicated. Its simple I'm Albanian from Kosova, Its says in my Ethnic group under my avatar plain and simple Shqiptar(Albanian).The fact you have dought of people origin, is not my problem.

----------


## Ike

Yes but that doesn't mean that they are what they say. I'm trying to avoid ethnological and national classification.

----------


## Yetos

> We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view. 
> 
> The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).


I agree to a point, 

Ethnicity, nationality, cultural belong, relativity, are defined many times different according to a person, 

origin of someone is another problem.

historical events religious matters culture and folklor, even basic food production etc can create ethnicities, nations, etc

----------


## Ike

Anyway, I first got th idea of different geneology of Albanians and Kosovars from the third row of the table which shows prevalence of J haplotype in Albania:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

Than I looked upon the maps on J and E haplo, and E is clearly related to inland Kosovo:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E1b1b.jpg


while J is related to the seaside Albania:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--SgfQ_zyYv...oup-J2+Map.jpg


As soon as you go down from Kosovo, into Albania, green color diminishes:
http://oi54.tinypic.com/10yqc07.jpg


Than I looked for other sources, and found that Aromuns (Dukasi, Albania) have almost 50 % of J haplotype:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

Click on Dukasi, to see where it's located, for reference.


Old Greeks called indigenous tribes of those area Pelasgians, so I looked up for those maps, and I found the map of tribes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M...d_environs.png

My guess is that black tribes are Greek and they are J haplotype. Kosovars are the red (called Illyrians on the map. Not sure if only Kosovars are included, Greeks may have counted all the infidels as Illyrians) and they are E haplotype.


I'm not sure if this all is correct, but I can't resolve it by myself so I presented it to you guys, to see what you think.

----------


## LeBrok

> "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians"
> You're making this way to complicated. Its simple I'm Albanian from Kosova, Its says in my Ethnic group under my avatar plain and simple Shqiptar(Albanian).The fact you have dought of people origin, is not my problem.





> Yes but that doesn't mean that they are what they say. I'm trying to avoid ethnological and national classification.


Lol, trying to define something in big mixing pot of nations and ethnicities, welcome to humankind. Just wait for Zanipolo to join with his definitions. ;)

----------


## zanipolo

> Lol, trying to define something in big mixing pot of nations and ethnicities, welcome to humankind. Just wait for Zanipolo to join with his definitions. ;)


 :Confused: 

your turn,........... I am tired of talking to  :Useless:  people about albanians.

----------


## FBS

I loved this post by Maciamo in antoher thread started by Zanipolo http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...rench?p=411082: 

I am pasting it here completely. 

Quote: You can see in this table the degree of genetic diversity for each population. 



The 'self' column shows the number of shared IBD ("identical by descent") blocks with other individuals of that country. The 'other' column compares IBD blocks with other countries. The higher the value the more recent the common shared ancestry. The Italians have the lowest self value (0.6), followed by the French (0.7) then the Belgians, Germans and Swiss (all 1.1). These are Europe's most genetically diverse populations according to this study. This coroborates my own research on surname diversity, which I found to be the highest in Italy, then France, then Belgium.

The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population. 

However the Albanians, Kosovars and Montenegrins have the highest percentage of shared IBD blocks with the rest of Europe. This is surprising considering the very different Y-DNA lineages found among these populations, notably the very high frequencies of E-V13 and J2b. Perhaps it is the result of the Balkans being the starting point of the Neolithic diffusion on the one side, and that the region was also invaded by all kinds of Europeans (Celts, Greeks, Goths, Slavs) who all left their genetic print in the Balkans. So it works both ways. All Europeans have a bit of Albanian, but all Albanians also have a bit of other Europeans in them.

The Spaniards, the Cypriots, and oddly enough also the Macedonians appear to be the most isolated populations from the rest of Europe. They are closely followed by the French, Swiss, Italians, Portuguese and Turks.

The study also supports a recent Slavic expansion, which not only includes the northern Slavs, but also the southern Slavs (Serbs, Croatians, Slovenes, Bulgars) who all share a lot of IBD blocks with other Slavic populations. That _could mean that the Eastern European Y-haplogroup I2a1b-Din was spread around the Balkans during the Slavic migrations, and was not present in the region since the Mesolithic, Neolithic or even Bronze Age. End of quote.

Very elegant explanation!_

----------


## albanopolis

> We first have to define what is Albanian ethicity? Some who believe to be 'Albanians' may have a 'Greek' ancestry, and some who believe to be 'Serbs' may have 'Albanian' ancestry. It's also understood, that Serbian or Greek ethnicity is yet to be defined, thats why I marked all these terms, because they are not quite clear from genealogical point of view. 
> 
> The better words would be "people from Kosovo that believe for themselves to be Albanians", but that seems too much complicated, and it also brings in the ethnic definition of Albanian (still uncertain), rather than geographical (which I called for).


Albanian ethnicity is defined. Anyone who feels Albanian, speaks Albanian, has given the pledge to the flag, has at least one parent with these qualities, is Albanian.
Albanians are not a race. DNA shows that. Time ater time, different people migrated to the area mixed, learned the language and became Albanians. Same is true for Greeks, Serbs and other nations.
What appears to be a clean race for me are Irish, Scots, Basques and Finns.

----------


## albanopolis

> What if Albanians are originally J2 and Kosovars are E-V13?


If they were different, why should they speak the same language? Who's language was Albanian? 
I beleive that there is genetic disbalance between Albanians from Albania and those from Kosovo.
There are reasonably accurate studies about Kosovo Albanians (from Pericic) and Albanians of Macedonia.
There are not accurately enough studies about Dna of Albanians from Albania.
There are physical differences between Kosovars and Albnians.
Gegh Albanians are considered "Beautiful people in their own way". I don't know exactly what this means, but every anthropologist that has written about Albanians has emphasized this fact.
Gegh male beauty appeared extremely appealing to the foreign European women and made jelous the counterpart men.  :Smile:

----------


## Ike

> Albanian ethnicity is defined. Anyone who feels Albanian, speaks Albanian, has given the pledge to the flag, has at least one parent with these qualities, is Albanian.
> Albanians are not a race. DNA shows that. Time ater time, different people migrated to the area mixed, learned the language and became Albanians..


That is a national identity. Just like Americans speak their language, sing a national anthem and have their flag, and say for themselves they are American, but in fact only an extremely small group of them is native American.





> If they were different, why should they speak the same language? Who's language was Albanian?


In the old times there was a strong tendency to relate ethnic and linguistic identity of the tribe/people. Nowdays we know better.


For example - some group of _Outsider_ warriors enters a continent and gains a control over a certain small area. They rape, pillage and kill all the men and children available. Word spreads around continent about their mischief, and it gets to the _Throne Divinorus_ (regional interpreter of divine words), which starts calling kings, dukes and maharajas of his realm to gather the army in the name of God. Word about this army getting organized also gets to the _Outsiders_ leaders, and what they hear is if they don't pledge to the _Throne Divinorus_ they'll get crushed by the army of the seven nations. If they do pledge and promise to pay racket and send a certain number of warriors when called, they can retain their position. If they are smart, they agree to this, and they get a Crown. Neither _Outsiderian_ rulers, nor neighbouring kingdom, nor _Throne Divinorus_ care what local population feels about it, as long as they can collect gold and food from them.

If someone wants to get his children educated or working by the Court, etc. he has to give his child to the school to learn _Outsiderian_. So, in a century or two, all the smart and educated men in the Kingdom end up speaking and writing in _Outsiderian_. They probabaly know their native languge too, but they use it only to talk to dirty peasants and uneducated mass. If the region was not culturally strong (no books, writings, stone plates, statues, stone buildings to remember them what they are) by the time of renaissance you have a whole nation of _Outsiderians_, speaking _Outsiderian_, while in fact NOT being it.

----------


## Marko94

> If someone wants to get his children educated or working by the Court, etc. he has to give his child to the school to learn _Outsiderian_. So, in a century or two, all the smart and educated men in the Kingdom end up speaking and writing in _Outsiderian_. They probabaly know their native languge too, but they use it only to talk to dirty peasants and uneducated mass. If the region was not culturally strong (no books, writings, stone plates, statues, stone buildings to remember them what they are) by the time of renaissance you have a whole nation of _Outsiderians_, speaking _Outsiderian_, while in fact NOT being it.


I do not think like you, remember that for culture (at the time) there was a need of "hofmeister" (tutor).
Who are the "Hofmeister"? Were teachers who were going into homes and taught, they were instructed by vatican.
Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, Montenegrins we have not had a renaissance or a wide cultures because those who "wanted to" study had to go to Turkey.
If the Ottoman Empire had not existed today we could have a view of culture and be influenced by the various currents eg. Enlightenment, Romanticism, and etc..
I often hear people say "Albania is a semi turkish" or "Greeks are Turks" and so on. I think that Turkey is composed by us.

#Srry for my bad english.

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

> Anyway, I first got th idea of different geneology of Albanians and Kosovars from the third row of the table which shows prevalence of J haplotype in Albania:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group
> 
> Than I looked upon the maps on J and E haplo, and E is clearly related to inland Kosovo:
> http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E1b1b.jpg
> 
> 
> while J is related to the seaside Albania:
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--SgfQ_zyYv...oup-J2+Map.jpg
> ...



wow what seriouse sources tinypic blogspot wikipedia and eupedia hahahaha
this drawn maps have no meaning and for sure are not seriouse
there is no difference between kosovo-albanains and albanians from albania like you want it

and the term kosovar does not exist there is no such ethnicity like kosovars
what you mean are albanains which popullate kosovo so north albanians

----------


## zanipolo

> wow what seriouse sources tinypic blogspot wikipedia and eupedia hahahaha
> this drawn maps have no meaning and for sure are not seriouse
> there is no difference between kosovo-albanains and albanians from albania like you want it
> 
> and the term kosovar does not exist there is no such ethnicity like kosovars
> what you mean are albanains which popullate kosovo so north albanians


The title of this thread makes you wrong. this is about haplogroups and not language, customs, nationality or modern borders.

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

> The title of this thread makes you wrong. this is about haplogroups and not language, customs, nationality or modern borders.


yeah about haplogroup in kosovo which is 97% albanian
i was not talking about borders i was just saying that the term kosovar does not exist

----------


## zanipolo

> yeah about haplogroup in kosovo which is 97% albanian
> i was not talking about borders i was just saying that the term kosovar does not exist


the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

> the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread


i know but the thread is about the haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo
and some serbs come up with nonsese like kosovars

----------


## Luan

> the term Albanian is not a haplogroup term............learn about haplogroups or write in another thread


You know exactly what he meant. Its what I been saying.

----------


## zanipolo

> You know exactly what he meant. Its what I been saying.


his post#94 means what ............?

The topic was the difference in J2 and E haplogroups between kosovo people and people in albania
These markers are not 97% albanian markers, many people share these markers. 

haplogroups are meant to destroy the theory of nationality, because haplogroups have no nationality...learn this

----------


## Ike

h


> i know but the thread is about the haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo and some serbs come up with nonsese like kosovars


There is a Republic of Kosovo, and population living there are Kosovars.
That's a territory everyone is familiar with, and the logic of deriving terms is consistent with other examples.

Germany - Germans
Andalusia - Andalusian
Sicilia - Sicilians

Whether it's a kingdom, state, republic, island, principality, county or any other recognizable geographical region used for administrative or other purposes, terms are marking the population of the region whatever ethnicity it may be.

I understand your need to underline the Albanian ethnicity of the majority of Kosovo population, but this is not a place for that. I think that everyone here already know that, or can easily obtain detailed demographic data from Wiki if interested.


You can't talk about "haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo" because we don't know who are Albanians on Kosovo. What if there were Serbs that converted to Islam and took over Albanian national identity for opportunistic reasons? What if there are Serbs on Kosovo, that you don't count as 'Kosovo Albanians', but in fact were Albanians 300 years ago? In the end, in what context am I using term Serb here? Do I think of linguistical R1a Serbian? Or maybe I2 Serbian from Bosnia? Or do I think of today Serbian as a citizen of Republic of Serbia which is 1/5 of all that? It all easily breaks apart, if we try to use these terms for ethnic denotation, and that's why we don't.

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

[QUOTE=Ike;411138]h

There is a Republic of Kosovo, and population living there are Kosovars.
That's a territory everyone is familiar with, and the logic of deriving terms is consistent with other examples.

Germany - Germans
Andalusia - Andalusian
Sicilia - Sicilians

Whether it's a kingdom, state, republic, island, principality, county or any other recognizable geographical region used for administrative or other purposes, terms are marking the population of the region whatever ethnicity it may be.

I understand your need to underline the Albanian ethnicity of the majority of Kosovo population, but this is not a place for that. I think that everyone here already know that, or can easily obtain detailed demographic data from Wiki if interested.[/QUOTE

i understand you but the term "kosovar" still does not exist it was invented in 2008 
"kosovar" comes from albanian medias the end "var" is albanian





> You can't talk about "haplogroups of the albanian population in kosovo" because we don't know who are Albanians on Kosovo. What if there were Serbs that converted to Islam and took over Albanian national identity for opportunistic reasons? What if there are Serbs on Kosovo, that you don't count as 'Kosovo Albanians', but in fact were Albanians 300 years ago? In the end, in what context am I using term Serb here? Do I think of linguistical R1a Serbian? Or maybe I2 Serbian from Bosnia? Or do I think of today Serbian as a citizen of Republic of Serbia which is 1/5 of all that? It all easily breaks apart, if we try to use these terms for ethnic denotation, and that's why we don't.



hahhahahah time for some : facepalm.gif

if one group is not homogenic than for sure its the serbs 
before you could occupy the regions around nish the sanxhaks and kosovo all south serbia and montenegro were albanian majority popullated http://ids.lib.harvard.edu/ids/view/...uBdYxdHZtYo%3D


if you take the islam as a serb this makes you to a bosnian but not an albanian we have idenity you can not be "albanized" just like that

423px-Serbia1817_1913.png

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfere...chengr%C3%A4tz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Berlin_(1878)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_(1913)

----------


## Ike

1. Term Kosovar does exist. For f**k sake, you yourself just said it was invented 5 years ago! 
I don't get it. Do you better like Kosovian, Kosovo-Metohian, Kosovics, Kosovci? What is your problem with that word?


2. As for occupation of Kosovo, read #87 from FBS again:
"The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population."

Do you even read what other people say? It's on the very same page as your post.


3. I've never said that just converting to Islam could make a Serb into Albanian. But leaving that aside, you said that it could make him a Bosnian. So, you agree that there was a way to change national identity throughout the history. Maybe there were other ways? More complex ones...

In the light of your own words, do you now see the need to break away from using those national qualifications in a way that you do?

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

> 1. Term Kosovar does exist. For f**k sake, you yourself just said it was invented 5 years ago! 
> I don't get it. Do you better like Kosovian, Kosovo-Metohian, Kosovics, Kosovci? What is your problem with that word?


 metohija is an invented serbian word the orginial word is dukagjini 
no we dont call ourself kosovar it never existed it was made up at the begining of independence 
we call ourself simple albanians no var no kosovo nothing of this invented stuff
just because you live in belgrad you dont call yourself belgradian or do you?




> 2. As for occupation of Kosovo, read #87 from FBS again:
> "The most homogeneous by far are the Albanians (14.5) and the Kosovars (9.9), followed by the Slovenes (5.0), the Russians (4.3), the Poles (3.8), and other Slavic peoples. It means that the Albanian and the Kosovan populations expanded quite recently from a much smaller source population."
> 
> Do you even read what other people say? It's on the very same page as your post.


'87 fbs? what you mean with that




> 3. I've never said that just converting to Islam could make a Serb into Albanian. But leaving that aside, you said that it could make him a Bosnian. So, you agree that there was a way to change national identity throughout the history. Maybe there were other ways? More complex ones...
> 
> In the light of your own words, do you now see the need to break away from using those national qualifications in a way that you do?


that with converting to another religion and become another ethnicity works only at southslavs
you are the same but still invent every 20 years a new "nation" like montengrians, macedonians, serbians, bosnians, croatians, slovenians although you are just southslavs or in your language yugoslavs
and of every dialect you invent a new "language" although its all the same southslavic one

----------


## Yetos

> metohija is an invented serbian word the orginial word is dukagjini 
> no we dont call ourself kosovar it never existed it was made up at the begining of independence 
> we call ourself simple albanians no var no kosovo nothing of this invented stuff
> just because you live in belgrad you dont call yourself belgradian or do you?
> 
> 
> 
> '87 fbs? what you mean with that
> 
> ...



SIMPLY BORING 

METOHIA IS A GREEK WORD AS ALSO KOSSYFOPEDIO 

BOTH WORDS KOSSOVO AND METOHIA ARE GREEK.

ΜΕΤΟΧΙΑ-METOXI-METOXH-*METOXOΣ* ->Metohja
After Greek words μετα+εχω 
KΟΣΣΥΦΑΣ -*KOΣΣΥΦΟΠΕΔΙΟ*- Kossovo
after the black bird that sings amazing Κοσσυφας Κοτσυφας

Simply boring propaganda,

----------


## Athelti Albanoi

> SIMPLY BORING 
> 
> METOHIA IS A GREEK WORD AS ALSO KOSSYFOPEDIO 
> 
> BOTH WORDS KOSSOVO AND METOHIA ARE GREEK.
> 
> ΜΕΤΟΧΙΑ-METOXI-METOXH-*METOXOΣ* ->Metohja
> After Greek words μετα+εχω 
> KΟΣΣΥΦΑΣ -*KOΣΣΥΦΟΠΕΔΙΟ*- Kossovo
> ...


i dont now if they are really greek but nodbody uses this words if they are really greek than they might be from the byzantian era 
and you know that the greek language was the language of the church and has nothing to do with you right? greek in the byzantian era was a universal language for all christians


the orginal name of kosovo is dardania and the orginal name for the serbian name mathoija is dukagjini
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...px-Map2344.png

i dont understand what you mean with propaganda and what is boring??

----------


## Ike

It's boring that you're pulling off your nationalistic propaganda here on genetic part of forum.
Why are you explaining to us what the territory was called like 2000 years ago by some local tribes? I know, and maybe Yetos knows because he lives somewhere around. But what the heck should Dardania mean to some forum member from Portugal or Japan? That's why you should use legitimate terms, that are easily recognizable. STOP bringing chaos into this thread.

----------


## Marko94

*Stop with this nationalism.

----------


## Marko94

> SIMPLY BORING 
> 
> METOHIA IS A GREEK WORD AS ALSO KOSSYFOPEDIO 
> 
> BOTH WORDS KOSSOVO AND METOHIA ARE GREEK.
> 
> ΜΕΤΟΧΙΑ-METOXI-METOXH-*METOXOΣ* ->Metohja
> After Greek words μετα+εχω 
> KΟΣΣΥΦΑΣ -*KOΣΣΥΦΟΠΕΔΙΟ*- Kossovo
> ...


The source?

----------


## Dale Cooper

> Link me in which you refer, 
> 
> Its odd that croatians, bosnians, montenegrians, albanians and serbians all want a piece of the illyrian DNA solely to justify their identity and lay claims to lands . But Illyrians did not see themselves as Illyrians, they all had different DNA, they all had different dynasties, they warred against each other and never aligned with each other in any major degree except Teuta in the south against the Romans and previuosly when 2 tribes united against Macedonia of Philip II and his son Alexander. The illyrians never laid claims beyond the Drin river as south of this was either epirote and later macedonian lands.


First of all, let me ask you this: where is the written historical evidence that pre-roman tribes and cultures of area of today Croatia, Bosnia and western Serbia called themselfs as "Illyrians"? Plz, show to me that kind of evidence where that tribes said that for themselfs, show me the proof where they considered themselfs as "ILLYRIANS". You know what is the real truth here?

Tribes of pre-roman area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia not only that they DIDN'T HAD SAME HAPLOGROUPS as THE REAL Illyrians from Epirus and areas of today Montenegro, BUT THEY WERE NOT ILLYRIANS in the first place. 

There is no proof where you can claim that tribes of pre-roman Croatia (Liburnes, Delmati, Japodes, Desitijati, Brekues etc...) were "Illyrians", by who or what they were "Illyrians"? By Romans? Let me laugh at that, you know why? Because Romans did not care much how they will name borders of their provinces, means they didn't cared which tribes will be included into that name of Province, so they would name the province by name of the tribe they had great problems with, in this case - ILLYRIANS from EPIRUS (Teuta & company), means today area of Albania and parts of Montenegro (along with parts of Kosovo etc...)

Now, I will end with this: PEOPLE/TRIBES of PRE-ROMAN time in area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia HAD I2a2 haplogroup dominant back than like they have it dominant TODAY, and tribes of EPIRUS (today Albania) had E1b1b dominant back than as they have it today.

You must be asking yourself, how can this be the case with Croatians, Serbians and Bosnians if they are slavic by linguistic and background origin of their tribes, well, let me enlighten you: original Croats and Serbs were slavic tribes and carriers of R1a, they mixed with romanized population of today Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia on SUCH HIGH LEVEL, that today dominant haplogroup of this three countries IS HAPLOGROUP of people before Croats and Serbs CAME HERE, so in fact YOU COULD TELL that today Croats and Serbs (majority) are BY GENETIC, the autochthonous people of pre-croatian, and pre-serbian time, even though today they are Croats and Serbs, why? Because NATION has nothing to do with ethnic background, and not to mention genetic background. That's all.

Respect and take care, do not take this post as some kind of "attack" on you, I was writting this more for others than for you :) cheers

----------


## sanja

Isn't it interesting how quickly any subject is spoiled when serbs, albanians, greeks, macedonians, bulgarians etc. have something to say on that? And i am contibuting farther: Kosovo is word for one kind of blackbird in serbian and many more slavic languages, not necessarily south slavic; in greek, but in many balkan languages also, an example of balkan sprachbund, just like word drum. Metohija is word of greek origin, and is related to monastic grange of serbian ortodox chirch in middle ages in region called Hvosno. After that the name of Kosovo and Metohija, and Metohija consequently, has been changed several times for political reasons. Can we, balkan people, overcame these past tenses, at least when it comes to eupedia and science, and educate ourselves, be openminded and contibute, please?

----------


## LeBrok

> Isn't it interesting how quickly any subject is spoiled when serbs, albanians, greeks, macedonians, bulgarians etc. have something to say on that? And i am contibuting farther: Kosovo is word for one kind of blackbird in serbian and many more slavic languages, not necessarily south slavic; in greek, but in many balkan languages also, an example of balkan sprachbund, just like word drum. Metohija is word of greek origin, and is related to monastic grange of serbian ortodox chirch in middle ages in region called Hvosno. After that the name of Kosovo and Metohija, and Metohija consequently, has been changed several times for political reasons. Can we, balkan people, overcame these past tenses, at least when it comes to eupedia and science, and educate ourselves, be openminded and contibute, please?


I can sign under this.
Welcome to Eupedia sanja.

----------


## Yaan

> Isn't it interesting how quickly any subject is spoiled when serbs, albanians, greeks, macedonians, bulgarians etc. have something to say on that? And i am contibuting farther: Kosovo is word for one kind of blackbird in serbian and many more slavic languages, not necessarily south slavic; in greek, but in many balkan languages also, an example of balkan sprachbund, just like word drum. Metohija is word of greek origin, and is related to monastic grange of serbian ortodox chirch in middle ages in region called Hvosno. After that the name of Kosovo and Metohija, and Metohija consequently, has been changed several times for political reasons. Can we, balkan people, overcame these past tenses, at least when it comes to eupedia and science, and educate ourselves, be openminded and contibute, please?


Yes, this is true. In Bulgarian also Kos is blackbird . Kosovo was populated by South Slavs(Serbs, Bulgarians) but Albanians start to come after the Ottoman conquest. Albanians change their faith so they can do what they want and torture Christian Slavs. The R1b in Albanians is R1b-23 also know as R1b-Ht35. It has 0 to make with Celts and Germanics it is seen in Armenians,Turks,Greeks,Albanians,Romanians, Bulgarians,Serbs a bit in Hungarians. Just like J2b2 and E-V13 it is a Balkan marker, connected with ancient Balkan people such as Thrachians,Dachians,Ilyrians, Hellenics etc. But some Albanians on Internet thing that it is Celtic.No it is not deal with it. The Celtic one is 0.9 in Bulgaria and Bulgaria and Turkey are the places where there was actually some Celtic setelment. As for Balkan people they are really connected but Greeks and Albanians have more of the native R1b-23,E-V13 and J2b2, while Serbs and Bulgarians have more of the Slavic I2a-Din, R1a-m458 and R1a-Z280.

----------


## Yetos

> i dont now if they are really greek but nodbody uses this words if they are really greek than they might be from the byzantian era 
> and you know that the greek language was the language of the church and has nothing to do with you right? greek in the byzantian era was a universal language for all christians
> 
> 
> the orginal name of kosovo is dardania and the orginal name for the serbian name mathoija is dukagjini
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...px-Map2344.png
> 
> i dont understand what you mean with propaganda and what is boring??



WRONG, search lexicons

----------


## Yetos

> the source?


all lexicons

----------


## Yetos

> Isn't it interesting how quickly any subject is spoiled when serbs, albanians, greeks, macedonians, bulgarians etc. have something to say on that? And i am contibuting farther: Kosovo is word for one kind of blackbird in serbian and many more slavic languages, not necessarily south slavic; in greek, but in many balkan languages also, an example of balkan sprachbund, just like word drum. Metohija is word of greek origin, and is related to monastic grange of serbian ortodox chirch in middle ages in region called Hvosno. After that the name of Kosovo and Metohija, and Metohija consequently, has been changed several times for political reasons. Can we, balkan people, overcame these past tenses, at least when it comes to eupedia and science, and educate ourselves, be openminded and contibute, please?


Correct. the original terminology

----------


## Marko94

> Yes, this is true. In Bulgarian also Kos is blackbird . Kosovo was populated by South Slavs(Serbs, Bulgarians) but Albanians start to come after the Ottoman conquest. Albanians change their faith so they can do what they want and torture Christian Slavs. The R1b in Albanians is R1b-23 also know as R1b-Ht35. It has 0 to make with Celts and Germanics it is seen in Armenians,Turks,Greeks,Albanians,Romanians, Bulgarians,Serbs a bit in Hungarians. Just like J2b2 and E-V13 it is a Balkan marker, connected with ancient Balkan people such as Thrachians,Dachians,Ilyrians, Hellenics etc. But some Albanians on Internet thing that it is Celtic.No it is not deal with it. The Celtic one is 0.9 in Bulgaria and Bulgaria and Turkey are the places where there was actually some Celtic setelment. As for Balkan people they are really connected but Greeks and Albanians have more of the native R1b-23,E-V13 and J2b2, while Serbs and Bulgarians have more of the Slavic I2a-Din, R1a-m458 and R1a-Z280.


OMG AGAIN.
Stop with this fake dream about albanian enter in balkan with empire ottoman maked by slavs*
Albanian stay in balkan in 1200 and is dimostred by Charles 1 of Naples.
In 1246 conquest Durazzo and a little bit of albanian coast.
Charles 1 of Naples moved Arbaresh (in this time caleed arbaresh) in italy for be farmer.
Arbaresh of south builded church ortodox and Arbaresh of north use church catholic, but never builded church catholic (in this time).
In 1400 and old, so many arbaresh begin to build church Catholic and Ortodox.
Is just a dream of slavs, stop plis.
And stop with this "muslim kill christian".
The change of religion is caused for taxes in empire ottoman, not because albanian enter in ottoman empire.

----------


## Yetos

> Yes, this is true. In Bulgarian also Kos is blackbird . Kosovo was populated by South Slavs(Serbs, Bulgarians) but Albanians start to come after the Ottoman conquest. Albanians change their faith so they can do what they want and torture Christian Slavs. The R1b in Albanians is R1b-23 also know as R1b-Ht35. It has 0 to make with Celts and Germanics it is seen in Armenians,Turks,Greeks,Albanians,Romanians, Bulgarians,Serbs a bit in Hungarians. Just like J2b2 and E-V13 it is a Balkan marker, connected with ancient Balkan people such as Thrachians,Dachians,Ilyrians, Hellenics etc. But some Albanians on Internet thing that it is Celtic.No it is not deal with it. The Celtic one is 0.9 in Bulgaria and Bulgaria and Turkey are the places where there was actually some Celtic setelment. As for Balkan people they are really connected but Greeks and Albanians have more of the native R1b-23,E-V13 and J2b2, while Serbs and Bulgarians have more of the Slavic I2a-Din, R1a-m458 and R1a-Z280.


The ones you mention are the ones Greeks call Galates Γαλατες, they enter balkans, repelled in Delphi moved back to Nis to Sofia and Rumania, then Stranza mountains Bulgaria to finally settle in minor Asia Cappadokia which alternate name is Galatia

About R1a is another story since is found in Thracian tomps by what I know which means that R1a could exist in south Balkans from 3500 BC

----------


## Marko94

> all lexicons


I don't understand, but this f****g (srry) name is Slavs or Greek!!!
Is impossible slavs say "but is slavs!" and now greek "but is greek!".
The one is option, not two.

----------


## Yetos

> OMG AGAIN.
> Stop with this fake dream about albanian enter in balkan with empire ottoman maked by slavs*
> Albanian stay in balkan in 1200 and is dimostred by Charles 1 of Naples.
> In 1246 conquest Durazzo and a little bit of albanian coast.
> Charles 1 of Naples moved Arbaresh (in this time caleed arbaresh) in italy for be farmer.
> Arbaresh of south builded church ortodox and Arbaresh of north use church catholic, but never builded church catholic (in this time).
> In 1400 and old, so many arbaresh begin to build church Catholic and Ortodox.
> Is just a dream of slavs, stop plis.
> And stop with this "muslim kill christian".
> The change of religion is caused for taxes in empire ottoman, not because albanian enter in ottoman empire.


No matter some extra nationalistic Albanians here are provoking to the degree of Stupidity, 
I admit that you are right, Terminology Albanian is older than Ottoman empire entrance in Balkans.

about Muslim and Christians, is another story.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't understand, but this f****g (srry) name is Slavs or Greek!!!
> Is impossible slavs say "but is slavs!" and now greek "but is greek!".
> The one is option, not two.


Lexicons give clear terminology. 
Metohja is the SLavic borrow of Greek work Mετοχια, 
Is Like Holy mountain Athos, Jerusalem Meca etc, Means holy land dedicated to God (Gods) 
Kossovo Kossova Kos Kossyfopedio Κοσσυφοπεδιο means land of the blackbirds word is almost same in Slavs and Greeks, 
Kossyfas in Greek, Kos in Bulgarian etc
it is not the only common sound word, typical among IE or Neighbour countries, 
want more words?

----------


## Marko94

> No matter some extra nationalistic Albanians here are provoking to the degree of Stupidity, 
> I admit that you are right, Terminology Albanian is older than Ottoman empire entrance in Balkans.
> 
> about Muslim and Christians, is another story.


Is normal, when historican german in 1800 and for 200 years continue to say "albanian are descendent of illyrian" and now, no, no albanian are descendent of....of what?
The balkan is just a territory when all abuse of hystory of population like a vinca culture.
If albanian don't stay in empire roman and old why we have 60/70% latin? and why words greek are taked from doric language??
Mhhh, is just abuse, Albania and Albanian is simbol of change every 200 years.
Is dimostred by fact historical, empire turk (500 years, not 1 years), communism and other.

----------


## Yetos

> First of all, let me ask you this: where is the written historical evidence that pre-roman tribes and cultures of area of today Croatia, Bosnia and western Serbia called themselfs as "Illyrians"? Plz, show to me that kind of evidence where that tribes said that for themselfs, show me the proof where they considered themselfs as "ILLYRIANS". You know what is the real truth here?
> 
> Tribes of pre-roman area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia not only that they DIDN'T HAD SAME HAPLOGROUPS as THE REAL Illyrians from Epirus and areas of today Montenegro, BUT THEY WERE NOT ILLYRIANS in the first place. 
> 
> There is no proof where you can claim that tribes of pre-roman Croatia (Liburnes, Delmati, Japodes, Desitijati, Brekues etc...) were "Illyrians", by who or what they were "Illyrians"? By Romans? Let me laugh at that, you know why? Because Romans did not care much how they will name borders of their provinces, means they didn't cared which tribes will be included into that name of Province, so they would name the province by name of the tribe they had great problems with, in this case - ILLYRIANS from EPIRUS (Teuta & company), means today area of Albania and parts of Montenegro (along with parts of Kosovo etc...)
> 
> Now, I will end with this: PEOPLE/TRIBES of PRE-ROMAN time in area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia HAD I2a2 haplogroup dominant back than like they have it dominant TODAY, and tribes of EPIRUS (today Albania) had E1b1b dominant back than as they have it today.
> 
> You must be asking yourself, how can this be the case with Croatians, Serbians and Bosnians if they are slavic by linguistic and background origin of their tribes, well, let me enlighten you: original Croats and Serbs were slavic tribes and carriers of R1a, they mixed with romanized population of today Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia on SUCH HIGH LEVEL, that today dominant haplogroup of this three countries IS HAPLOGROUP of people before Croats and Serbs CAME HERE, so in fact YOU COULD TELL that today Croats and Serbs (majority) are BY GENETIC, the autochthonous people of pre-croatian, and pre-serbian time, even though today they are Croats and Serbs, why? Because NATION has nothing to do with ethnic background, and not to mention genetic background. That's all.
> ...


Illyrians is a termination given by Greeks to tribes North of Epirus, Not Epirus.
later Romans with their favorite techique named Illyria all Dinaric Alps territory but Pliny the elder gives clear terminology of difference among Illyria and Illyricum. 
you are right, above a part of Montenegro there was never Illyria and even Illyrians never used that terminology since it is an exonym.
But later scientists found that Celts from Pannoni Basin moved west of Dinaric Alps to modern Albania, that is mentioned also in Herodotus, were Illyros went away from Thebes to stop Celt invasion, 
what left of Illyros and celts created what Greeks call Illyrians and later Pliny names as Illyria proprie Dicti.
simply the misunderstanding (by ignorance or in purpose) is that modern scientists use terminology Illyrian or Illyro -Celts for that part of East Celts, and not to determine Illyrian Proprie populations

----------


## Marko94

> No matter some extra nationalistic Albanians here are provoking to the degree of Stupidity, 
> I admit that you are right, Terminology Albanian is older than Ottoman empire entrance in Balkans.
> 
> about Muslim and Christians, is another story.


Yes, ok all know what is happened in Chameria, muslim use law for kill greek ortodox and albanian ortodox.
But is the history, now only for this we must hate us??

----------


## Marko94

> Lexicons give clear terminology. 
> Metohja is the SLavic borrow of Greek work Mετοχια, 
> Is Like Holy mountain Athos, Jerusalem Meca etc, Means holy land dedicated to God (Gods) 
> Kossovo Kossova Kos Kossyfopedio Κοσσυφοπεδιο means land of the blackbirds word is almost same in Slavs and Greeks, 
> Kossyfas in Greek, Kos in Bulgarian etc
> it is not the only common sound word, typical among IE or Neighbour countries, 
> want more words?


U think in byzantium empire the kosovo is called *KOΣΣΥΦΟΠΕΔΙΟ.

*

----------


## Yetos

> Yes, ok all know what is happened in Chameria, muslim use law for kill greek ortodox and albanian ortodox.
> But is the history, now only for this we must hate us??


Don't put words in my mouth, 

I just said is another story.

----------


## Yetos

> U think in byzantium empire the kosovo is called *KOΣΣΥΦΟΠΕΔΙΟ.
> 
> *


I just said that Kossovo Kossova Κοσσυφοπεδιο is the same word with same root. 

I also explain what metohja is. 

It is not what I believe, it is fact, 

if as you say every 200 years someone is changing his history, then do not do it, 

Κοσσυφοπεδιον as terminology was a metohi of Serbian Patriarch, and then something like a vakif. with a Greek name, Kossyfopedion
then after the battle of Kossovo the whole area named Kossovo after the battle.

Kossyfopedion was just a field outside today Pristina, after that become synonyme of the wider area,

before the battle, no one knew the territory with that name.

vakif and metohja is almost the same, 
Kossyfopedion was the name one of them.

As for Kossovo solution I agree with what Georgievski (VMRO) of FYroM wrote, after the discussion with Jaferi (Tzaferi) of DPA, Serbian Tzintzic (somethink like that, i have the book translated) and USA Albright. 
the solution given is not vital, an exchange of lands and population would be a better solution.

----------


## Yaan

> OMG AGAIN.
> Stop with this fake dream about albanian enter in balkan with empire ottoman maked by slavs*
> Albanian stay in balkan in 1200 and is dimostred by Charles 1 of Naples.
> In 1246 conquest Durazzo and a little bit of albanian coast.
> Charles 1 of Naples moved Arbaresh (in this time caleed arbaresh) in italy for be farmer.
> Arbaresh of south builded church ortodox and Arbaresh of north use church catholic, but never builded church catholic (in this time).
> In 1400 and old, so many arbaresh begin to build church Catholic and Ortodox.
> Is just a dream of slavs, stop plis.
> And stop with this "muslim kill christian".
> The change of religion is caused for taxes in empire ottoman, not because albanian enter in ottoman empire.


Better read and learn before u write something!!Where did I said that Albanians entered Balkan in Ottoman time? They did not, but they did entered Western Macedonia and Kosovo in the Ottoman time. 
Albanians become Muslim only to be able to do their mafia thing, which they do since the down of time, but this is not the topic here, we speak about genes. R1b-L23,E-V13 and J2b2 are Balkan genes.R1b-L23 has nothing to do with Celtic people, so the fake dream of Albanians to feel Western European is crushed into pieces, lets not argue about stupid things.

----------


## Yaan

Which R1a, there are so many types that has absolutelty nothing to do with each other. R1a-M458 and R1a- Z280 has nothing to do with Thrachians and entered with Slavs. The Thrachins were of course mostly E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-L23 people but they may have had some R1a- M198 also called Old European, u r right about this, but u should not R1a means nothing, u should say which subtype u mean ) There is Slavic, Paki, Mongolian, Viking, Old European etc :)

----------


## Marko94

> Don't put words in my mouth, 
> 
> I just said is another story.


Ok, this another story is other.




> I just said that Kossovo Kossova Κοσσυφοπεδιο is the same word with same root. 
> 
> I also explain what metohja is. 
> 
> It is not what I believe, it is fact, 
> 
> if as you say every 200 years someone is changing his history, then do not do it, 
> 
> Κοσσυφοπεδιον as terminology was a metohi of Serbian Patriarch, and then something like a vakif. with a Greek name, Kossyfopedion
> ...


Event for change history is don't caused by "normal" albanian.
I'm not aware of what is happening now in the Balkans, but I'm sure that hatred will remain.
However, after these pacts also republika srpsk, novi sad and Sanjak want independence.

----------


## Marko94

> Better read and learn before u write something!!Where did I said that Albanians entered Balkan in Ottoman time? They did not, but they did entered Western Macedonia and Kosovo in the Ottoman time. 
> Albanians become Muslim only to be able to do their mafia thing, which they do since the down of time, but this is not the topic here, we speak about genes. R1b-L23,E-V13 and J2b2 are Balkan genes.R1b-L23 has nothing to do with Celtic people, so the fake dream of Albanians to feel Western European is crushed into pieces, lets not argue about stupid things.


Mhhh, i think u are just a stupid.
The change of religon is contribuided by ottoman empire, u say "albanian make mafia".
But is just a fake, go in italy, in italy russian and ukrainian are wors of albanian mafia or italian mafia.
Albanian of today are only angry for governament, past and many things.
In other topic, many people confirmed e-v13 enter in neolithc in europe.
According to "utent of forum", kosovo is center of gene for Albanian.
For me don't interest enter in UE or european feel.
U have origin in vodkaland and we in africa.
A no srry u can descendent from turkey.

----------


## Yaan

1. Do not call me stupid little boy or u will be reported
2. Kosovo was populated by Albanians after the Ottoman conquest of Europe
3. No I did not originate in Vodkaland and u do not originate in Africa , I am Balkan Slav and u r Italian and Albanian
4. Maybe learn some English and something about genetics, and do not be ashamed that Albanians are Muslims I am not ashamed we are Christians

----------


## Marko94

> 1. Do not call me stupid little boy or u will be reported
> 2. Kosovo was populated by Albanians after the Ottoman conquest of Europe
> 3. No I did not originate in Vodkaland and u do not originate in Africa , I am Balkan Slav and u r Italian and Albanian
> 4. Maybe learn some English and something about genetics, and do not be ashamed that Albanians are Muslims I am not ashamed we are Christians


I think u don't know.
But the term of slavs in italy have significated slaves or gypse.
Is confirmed u are stupid, u say "albanian enter with empire ottoman", and i have shut up you.
U not accept shut up? 
In kosovo stay albanian before of ottoman, Skanderbeu before of death he wil go in kosovo ( or center of balkan) for called other arbaresh or make a crusades and go in greece for free them. This is write all by vatican and confirmed by vatican.
Ok, now u "must" report me.
And albanian are much more Christian than you, i remember pope arbaresh, Pope Clement XI.

----------


## Yaan

1. No u did not shut me up, coz I said entered Kosovo and u said noting 
2. Nobody cares what Italians say about Slavs, Slav come from Slovo(the people that can talk) we call the Germanics Nemci(the numb one)
3. Bulgarian were Christian before such country as Albania existed

----------


## albanopolis

> 1. No u did not shut me up, coz I said entered Kosovo and u said noting 
> 2. Nobody cares what Italians say about Slavs, Slav come from Slovo(the people that can talk) we call the Germanics Nemci(the numb one)
> 3. Bulgarian were Christian before such country as Albania existed


Go easy my friend! 
Kostandine the Great an(Illyrian) Albanian from Nisus signed a law that made christianity a religion. 
How come you were christian before the one who invented it?
When Albanians were christians Bugars were a Mongol tribe, later they mixed with slavs.
Get your facts right when yu debate,.!!

----------


## Yaan

1. Konstantin was not Albanian, he was Roman, Nish is city populated by Bulgarians and Serbs in the past and only Serbs now, r u crazy, there was no Albanian state before 20th century 
2. Show we one genetic or linguistic proof that we were even Mongols, we are mixture of Thrchains and Slavs, language and genes prove me right and u wrong
3. Learn history nobody ever claim Bulgars were Mongols, some Russians historians in 19th century claimed Turkic 
4. If we are Mongols Turkic then u are Azeris, coz there was a state called Albania there 
5. Bulgaria official exist as country since 681 and we are Christians since late 9 century 
So maybe in the bar with the other Albanians somebody believes u stories, but not here 
All the best

----------


## zanipolo

> First of all, let me ask you this: where is the written historical evidence that pre-roman tribes and cultures of area of today Croatia, Bosnia and western Serbia called themselfs as "Illyrians"? Plz, show to me that kind of evidence where that tribes said that for themselfs, show me the proof where they considered themselfs as "ILLYRIANS". You know what is the real truth here?
> 
> Tribes of pre-roman area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia not only that they DIDN'T HAD SAME HAPLOGROUPS as THE REAL Illyrians from Epirus and areas of today Montenegro, BUT THEY WERE NOT ILLYRIANS in the first place. 
> 
> There is no proof where you can claim that tribes of pre-roman Croatia (Liburnes, Delmati, Japodes, Desitijati, Brekues etc...) were "Illyrians", by who or what they were "Illyrians"? By Romans? Let me laugh at that, you know why? Because Romans did not care much how they will name borders of their provinces, means they didn't cared which tribes will be included into that name of Province, so they would name the province by name of the tribe they had great problems with, in this case - ILLYRIANS from EPIRUS (Teuta & company), means today area of Albania and parts of Montenegro (along with parts of Kosovo etc...)
> 
> Now, I will end with this: PEOPLE/TRIBES of PRE-ROMAN time in area of today Croatia, Bosnia and parts of Serbia HAD I2a2 haplogroup dominant back than like they have it dominant TODAY, and tribes of EPIRUS (today Albania) had E1b1b dominant back than as they have it today.
> 
> You must be asking yourself, how can this be the case with Croatians, Serbians and Bosnians if they are slavic by linguistic and background origin of their tribes, well, let me enlighten you: original Croats and Serbs were slavic tribes and carriers of R1a, they mixed with romanized population of today Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia on SUCH HIGH LEVEL, that today dominant haplogroup of this three countries IS HAPLOGROUP of people before Croats and Serbs CAME HERE, so in fact YOU COULD TELL that today Croats and Serbs (majority) are BY GENETIC, the autochthonous people of pre-croatian, and pre-serbian time, even though today they are Croats and Serbs, why? Because NATION has nothing to do with ethnic background, and not to mention genetic background. That's all.
> ...


I said they did not call themselves illyrian, the term illyrian is a geographical term, same as iberian, italian, british, scandinavian etc
Even the term thracian is geographical which is why historians with some brains further refine them to getae, dacians, triballi, bessi, moesians etc.

So to be clear, there are NO people actually called Illyrian. 

These "illyrians" where around centuries before the slavic people entered the balkans. By the time the slavs entered, the "illyrians where already firstly celtinized and then romanized. They did not exist after 50AD

----------


## kamani

It is kind of hard to get people to accept stories that go against their interest, even if they're true. That's why in the Balkans everybody beats their own drum from their own mountain top. Every attempt to unite these people fails miserably, like Jugoslavia for example.

----------


## Marko94

> 1. No u did not shut me up, coz I said entered Kosovo and u said noting 
> 2. Nobody cares what Italians say about Slavs, Slav come from Slovo(the people that can talk) we call the Germanics Nemci(the numb one)
> 3. Bulgarian were Christian before such country as Albania existed


Ahaha, so funny.
I don't answer because is so stupid.
I shut up u again with Skanderbeu and crusades.




> 1. Konstantin was not Albanian, he was Roman, Nish is city populated by Bulgarians and Serbs in the past and only Serbs now, r u crazy, there was no Albanian state before 20th century 
> 2. Show we one genetic or linguistic proof that we were even Mongols, we are mixture of Thrchains and Slavs, language and genes prove me right and u wrong
> 3. Learn history nobody ever claim Bulgars were Mongols, some Russians historians in 19th century claimed Turkic 
> 4. If we are Mongols Turkic then u are Azeris, coz there was a state called Albania there 
> 5. Bulgaria official exist as country since 681 and we are Christians since late 9 century 
> So maybe in the bar with the other Albanians somebody believes u stories, but not here 
> All the best


1)Kostantino was illyrian, not roman, i think u don't know who are roman and illyrian.
U came in europe in 300, he is born in 274 and now answer to me how he is slavs??
2)LOL, in other post people say u descendent from tribe turk, LOL.
3)Yea, before of 2000 nothing contrasted albanian are descendent of illyrian, but today is discord.
4)Now see the map.
800px-Ancient_countries_of_Transcaucasia.jpg
If u can see, with albania look iberia.
Now, iberia caucasic has nothing to do with the iberia european (spanish).
Name Albania (used for we) for arbaresh and historican italian think born in 1600 or 1700, maked by italian. Alba=tentum--nia=place.
And if we are causic, why in my language have Latin,Illyrian or traco-dacio-greek(doric words)-slavs and nothing words caucasic.
Slavs are so many because when enter in europe, your family is compose with 10-15 sons.
5)Not is correct, u forget empire ottoman.

----------


## Yetos

> Ok, this another story is other.
> 
> 
> Event for change history is don't caused by "normal" albanian.
> I'm not aware of what is happening now in the Balkans, but I'm sure that hatred will remain.
> However, after these pacts also republika srpsk, novi sad and Sanjak want independence.


it is a right of populations to unite, and to divorse, 
when ex-almighty Yugoslavia the 2nd biggest in 3rd world BOOM, there were areas and populations like Slovenia and Fyrom where the blood was less than a weekend's car accidents. 
while in Bosna and Kossovo was enough, too much, 
and I have to agree with you, hatred is a big problem, and many people earn by selling it. 
and many suffer by believing them.

----------


## Yetos

> Go easy my friend! 
> Kostandine the Great an(Illyrian) Albanian from Nisus signed a law that made christianity a religion. 
> How come you were christian before the one who invented it?
> When Albanians were christians Bugars were a Mongol tribe, later they mixed with slavs.
> Get your facts right when yu debate,.!!


SINCE WHEN? 
NIS WAS A ROMAN CITY, WHERE FLAVIANS SETTLE. 
CONSTANTINE WAS FLAVIAN. 
I wonder did ever heard of Flavian Dynasty and their Legions?

----------


## Yetos

> I said they did not call themselves illyrian, the term illyrian is a geographical term, same as iberian, italian, british, scandinavian etc
> Even the term thracian is geographical which is why historians with some brains further refine them to getae, dacians, triballi, bessi, moesians etc.
> 
> So to be clear, there are NO people actually called Illyrian. 
> 
> These "illyrians" where around centuries before the slavic people entered the balkans. By the time the slavs entered, the "illyrians where already firstly celtinized and then romanized. They did not exist after 50AD


Sorry zani, I think is mostly like a wider trbal/ethnic family. Like with Germans we mean Deutsch, but we could also mean Dutch Austrians Goths Dans etc, 
with Slavs we could mean Polish Slovaks Croats etc. 
Getai Dacians triballi Odrysse Paeoni etc is like Goths Deutsch Dutch etc today.

But I agree that Illyrian was an exonyme used by Greeks to describe some tribes/nations above Epiros, and then used by Romans as Geografical division-State terms. 
so in some geographers we can see that triballi lived in Illyricum, but we know that they were not Illyrians

----------


## albanopolis

> 1. Konstantin was not Albanian, he was Roman, Nish is city populated by Bulgarians and Serbs in the past and only Serbs now, r u crazy, there was no Albanian state before 20th century 
> 2. Show we one genetic or linguistic proof that we were even Mongols, we are mixture of Thrchains and Slavs, language and genes prove me right and u wrong
> 3. Learn history nobody ever claim Bulgars were Mongols, some Russians historians in 19th century claimed Turkic 
> 4. If we are Mongols Turkic then u are Azeris, coz there was a state called Albania there 
> 5. Bulgaria official exist as country since 681 and we are Christians since late 9 century 
> So maybe in the bar with the other Albanians somebody believes u stories, but not here 
> All the best


Were not Romans inhabitants of Rome? Nisus is not Rome I think. Acoording to your confused judgement since Greece were occupied by Romans, so greeks to were Roman?
Nish was populated by Dardanians (today's Kosovo Albanians). Slavs came to the area at 7th centuary a.d, so today's Servs and Bullgars were still in Russian stepes. Albanians were Bizantine christians at that time.
Why the hell you deny your Mongol ancestry my friend?
Where did that Q and N haplogroups you harbour came from?
Bulgaria is a 19th centuary creation of Russia. It will be destroyed within this centuary. Most of your lands are Turkish or Romanian.
Don't read your slavic history my friend. In the west that history is discredited as falce.

----------


## Yaan

1. Albanians are not Romans, but people fro the moutian,which did not had a country again early 20th cenury 
2. Todays Kosovo Albanians are Muslim people which come from what is today Albania in 16th and 17th century 
3. There is no such thing as Bullgars, is is Bulgars 
4. N and Q are not Mongol, N is huge in Lithuanians and Finnish are they Mongols,Q in Europe is the biggest in Scandianvia are the Mongols 
5. Bulgarians have no Q and N, combine maybe 1% Albanians would have a simmiliar ammount 
6. Turkish state did not exist until 20th century and Romania is a new creation 
7. The countries in the Balkan are Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia - Romania,Albania and Turkey are new states created on stolen territory 
8. It is funny how a nation of Muslim mafia criminals invent a whole new history, in the West but also in the East u r seen as the lowest European country

----------


## Marko94

> 1. Albanians are not Romans, but people fro the moutian,which did not had a country again early 20th cenury 
> 2. Todays Kosovo Albanians are Muslim people which come from what is today Albania in 16th and 17th century 
> 3. There is no such thing as Bullgars, is is Bulgars 
> 4. N and Q are not Mongol, N is huge in Lithuanians and Finnish are they Mongols,Q in Europe is the biggest in Scandianvia are the Mongols 
> 5. Bulgarians have no Q and N, combine maybe 1% Albanians would have a simmiliar ammount 
> 6. Turkish state did not exist until 20th century and Romania is a new creation 
> 7. The countries in the Balkan are Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia - Romania,Albania and Turkey are new states created on stolen territory 
> 8. It is funny how a nation of Muslim mafia criminals invent a whole new history, in the West but also in the East u r seen as the lowest European country


1)Infact nobody say, roman when conquest diffondend just a culture latin or taked and used for soldier or gladiator.
2)Again, don't important a religion, important history and gene.
3)I don't understand u.
4)I'm not genetist, next.
5)i'm not genetist, next.
6)Romanian or Vlachs*, are a people of roman empire oriental, called by "ROMAN".
Empire russian will kick ottoman, and for kick need help.
what's is the best plan? diffuse patriotism, before begin to serbs and after to all balkan.
Just a little bit of romanian stay in empire ottoman. 
If empire roman would have lived more and don't divide with bizantium empire, u don't stay in EU.
Romanian and albanian stay, but u....mhhh, change discussion.
7)Yea, it is funny how in ww2 we have support by italian and nazist, is funny how Mario Draghi need Albania and Swiss in UE.
It is funny how slavs offend america,ovest europe and u go to find work in america or ovest europe.
It is funny how for russia enter drug and mafia, yes is very funny.
A no srry, drug enter before in Kosovo and after diffonded in europe.

----------


## Marko94

> SINCE WHEN? 
> NIS WAS A ROMAN CITY, WHERE FLAVIANS SETTLE. 
> CONSTANTINE WAS FLAVIAN. 
> I wonder did ever heard of Flavian Dynasty and their Legions?


Don't is so correct.
For many teachers from university of pisa think the family have possible descendent illyrian, because the culture latin is very strong and many tribe united with roman. 
so as to erase their origins.
About roman emperors in bizantium empire is in contrast for many teacher and studios.

----------


## albanopolis

> 1. Albanians are not Romans, but people fro the moutian,which did not had a country again early 20th cenury 
> 2. Todays Kosovo Albanians are Muslim people which come from what is today Albania in 16th and 17th century 
> 3. There is no such thing as Bullgars, is is Bulgars 
> 4. N and Q are not Mongol, N is huge in Lithuanians and Finnish are they Mongols,Q in Europe is the biggest in Scandianvia are the Mongols 
> 5. Bulgarians have no Q and N, combine maybe 1% Albanians would have a simmiliar ammount 
> 6. Turkish state did not exist until 20th century and Romania is a new creation 
> 7. The countries in the Balkan are Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia - Romania,Albania and Turkey are new states created on stolen territory 
> 8. It is funny how a nation of Muslim mafia criminals invent a whole new history, in the West but also in the East u r seen as the lowest European country


You must be a drummer, since you don't know N and Q haplos are Mongolic
Albanians have not a single person of haplo N and Q.
You wished you have 1% N and Q! It's over 5%.
It could be true that East see us as a low point, I don't know, but guess who lives in East? Russsia,Ucraine, Vulgaria. All lost causes, countries that never done anything in human history
Bulgarians are seen in West as Gypsies. Ridiculously ugly dark individuals live there. It's a prevalent opinion.
You are a lost cause to debate further. Turkey was an Empire until 100 yrs ago, you are saying it did not exist.
Vullgarians managed to get to the EU but guess what is happening there. It became a laughing stock.
It will not be long before Turkey overtakes you.
If we are the same like Azeris I will be proud of it. They are noble people, not trash like Vulgarians.

----------


## Yaan

1. N is North East European- Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, another subclades of N are big in Siberia
2. Q one subclade is big in America others are observed at low % in Europe,especially North 
3. C is Mongolian
4. In Bulgaria combined C,N and Q and N and Q are seen in all Europeans, C also is 1.4, this is lower than majority of European 
5. Read it and cry like a girl http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6Bq0iUu8AQ...56779.g002.png
6. No Bulgarians are not seen as Gypsies, but Albanians are seen as Gypsies, Muslims and Al Qaida and mafia, sorry but nothing can changed it 
7. There is not such thing as Vulgarians, but one Muslim fundamentalist can not understand this 
8. Learn something about genetics and history or stop writing here

----------


## IllyrianWarrior1990

Hahahahahahahha this thread is so funny I'm laughing myself to death. An honest question, have there been any threads about Albania/Kosovo where Serbs,Greeks, Fyromanians or other shit mix haven't replied??

Albanians/Illyrians are probably the most homogenetic group because of their traditions and cultures. For example Greeks are not te old Greeks that lived there, they are a mix of all kinds, mainly Turks and slaves (read about Ottoman Empire where Greeks where their pets)

Secondly without the Albanians Greece would still wipe their ass with their hands. (Read about the Greece independent war where Albanians was the factor that made them win the war). Greece was so thankful that they attacked Albania and sacked Janina and the region around there and massacred the Albanians that had been living there for centuries (read about Cameria).


The third, there are records of the salves invasion and when the Illyrians had advanced society, the Serbs and other slaves where still climbing trees in Sibiria... 

Fourth, there are absolutely no evidence of Albanians coming from Africa like some slaves are saying about te Albania-Egypt connection. Modern Egypt was more or less invented by the Albanians (read about Muhamed Ali of Egypt)

Before the invasion Albanians could be found all the way up to Nis and Shkupi (Skopje) was meant to be its Capital but the powers took away 2/3 of Albnians land and one day the Albanian eagle will fly once again from Janina all the way up to Nis. 

Think ur self what will happened if u take away 2/3 of someone's land. Ofc there will be conflict and when people try to "steal" heroes like Alexander the Great whom was in fact Albanian.

after a lot of suffering and bloodshed Kosovo is once again under Albanian rule and the development that happened there in the past 5 years is a lot more than under slavish rule for the last 50 years.

An it's also funny when a slave from Bulgaria think he is some white meat. Bro, in our eyes u are an untermenschen with a Mongolian/Turkish blood...

----------


## albanopolis

> 1. N is North East European- Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, another subclades of N are big in Siberia
> 2. Q one subclade is big in America others are observed at low % in Europe,especially North 
> 3. C is Mongolian
> 4. In Bulgaria combined C,N and Q and N and Q are seen in all Europeans, C also is 1.4, this is lower than majority of European 
> 5. Read it and cry like a girl http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6Bq0iUu8AQ...56779.g002.png
> 6. No Bulgarians are not seen as Gypsies, but Albanians are seen as Gypsies, Muslims and Al Qaida and mafia, sorry but nothing can changed it 
> 7. There is not such thing as Vulgarians, but one Muslim fundamentalist can not understand this 
> 8. Learn something about genetics and history or stop writing here


Escimos are northern Europeans?
For gods sake are you serious? 
N,Q,C are escimez haplogroups and escimos are a Mongolic branch.
So, don't try to hide your Mongol ancestry
Yes, Fins,Estonians, Lithuanians, Russians have a large part of their ancestry escimez.
Have you heard that English, French, Italians have a drop of Escomo ancestry, since you are claiming all Europeans have it?
You are kidding yourself that Bulgars are not seen as a dark stock or Gypsies or that matter!
At least that is the way you are seen in my country.
If others see my people as gypsies, who gives a shit, my people are made of fine stock.
I am not claiming knowdelge of history, that's why I keep my history local where I know something. To learn about history I look to western, balanced sources, not eastern fictions.

----------


## IllyrianWarrior1990

Bulgarians and Romanians are seen by most as gypsies who sell their girls very cheap. Go to London or France and u will be able to speak bulgarian with most of them. That's how much worth is the Bulgarian honour...

----------


## Yaan

> Bulgarians and Romanians are seen by most as gypsies who sell their girls very cheap. Go to London or France and u will be able to speak bulgarian with most of them. That's how much worth is the Bulgarian honour...


I am not even going to justify this, coming from an Albanian Gypsy Al Qaida supporter. Albanians sell their children as slaves and support Al Qaida, also u r like Gypsies.

----------


## Yetos

> Hahahahahahahha this thread is so funny I'm laughing myself to death. An honest question, have there been any threads about Albania/Kosovo where Serbs,Greeks, Fyromanians or other shit mix haven't replied??
> 
> Albanians/Illyrians are probably the most homogenetic group because of their traditions and cultures. For example Greeks are not te old Greeks that lived there, they are a mix of all kinds, mainly Turks and slaves (read about Ottoman Empire where Greeks where their pets)
> 
> Secondly without the Albanians Greece would still wipe their ass with their hands. (Read about the Greece independent war where Albanians was the factor that made them win the war). Greece was so thankful that they attacked Albania and sacked Janina and the region around there and massacred the Albanians that had been living there for centuries (read about Cameria).
> 
> 
> The third, there are records of the salves invasion and when the Illyrians had advanced society, the Serbs and other slaves where still climbing trees in Sibiria... 
> 
> ...


Just Boring.

----------


## IllyrianWarrior1990

> I am not even going to justify this, coming from an Albanian Gypsy Al Qaida supporter. Albanians sell their children as slaves and support Al Qaida, also u r like Gypsies.


Hahhah alqaida supporters? Is that why Albanians said no to mujaheddin support? Haha look at ur country, full of Turks, man you were Turkish dogs for 500 years that's why u are so gypsielooking? Mongols+slaves+Turkish=Bulgarian

----------


## IllyrianWarrior1990

> Just Boring.


Haha nice one, what can u expect from a backstabbing blackskinned Turk?

----------


## Taranis

What the hell? Stop insulting each other.

----------


## Yaan

> Hahhah alqaida supporters? Is that why Albanians said no to mujaheddin support? Haha look at ur country, full of Turks, man you were Turkish dogs for 500 years that's why u are so gypsielooking? Mongols+slaves+Turkish=Bulgarian


Look who is speaking of Turkish, Albanian and Turkish is all the same. Turkish + Gypsy + Serb= Albanian

----------


## Yetos

> Haha nice one, what can u expect from a backstabbing blackskinned Turk?


more Boring, 

haven't you learn any new Joke?

----------


## Marko94

> Haha nice one, what can u expect from a backstabbing blackskinned Turk?



Stop with this against greek.
try to have respect and answer if u need.
We're lucky that after 2WW greek don't take all north epiro.

----------


## Marko94

> Look who is speaking of Turkish, Albanian and Turkish is all the same. Turkish + Gypsy + Serb= Albanian


If is so same why we have 70% words latin??

----------


## Yetos

> [/COLOR]
> Stop with this against greek.
> try to have respect and answer if u need.
> We're lucky that after 2WW greek don't take all north epiro.


That is also another story, away from Thread and Forum, 

MicroPolitical and Diplomacy is for Politicians and Diplomacers and has nothing to do with thread.

----------


## Marko94

> That is also another story, away from Thread and Forum, 
> 
> MicroPolitical and Diplomacy is for Politicians and Diplomacers and has nothing to do with thread.


U don't understand, just albanian can to understand.

----------


## Dale Cooper

It's very sad to see that people insult each other here on racial and nationalistic levels, this forum is better than that... We cannot allow ourselfs to be slaves of our emotions sometimes (like some users here considering their nations) and react unciviliazed to other user here... so plz, as author of this thread, I'm asking you: chill out :)

----------


## Bosniak

> if one group is not homogenic than for sure its the serbs 
> before you could occupy the regions around nish the sanxhaks and kosovo all south serbia and montenegro were albanian majority popullated
> 
> 
> if you take the islam as a serb this makes you to a bosnian but not an albanian we have idenity you can not be "albanized" just like that
> 
> Attachment 5919


Sandzak has never been Albanian. The Muslim population of Sandzak are definitely of Bosniak roots. Sure I don't deny that there lived some Albanians but they were not in majority. I have Bosniak friends who are from Kosovo and they can speak Albanian perfectly but they are way more Bosniak patriotic then the Bosnian Bosniaks. What am say is not even the Bosniaks who lived among Albanians in Kosovo and can speak Albanian perfectly don't feel Albanian at all. And they are of Sandzak roots.

And Bosnia has never been in position to "Bosniakize" the Sandzak population.

----------


## ukaj

its funny how greeks insult about the truksih crap when infact the greek language has over 11 thousands words of turkish from the ottomans from when they were in greece,the insults are crazy from both albanians an greeks if you can call them greeks i ashume more on the lines of albanians an turkish christians of modern day greece.An Yan do yu know where the word bulgar comes from?I see you are bulgarian?Then i suggest you find out where that word comes from before calling albanians turkish gypsys because the word bulgar is from the turks themselfs they were a mixed people slavnic an turkish,,lol sill fool.bulgarians are pure turkishslavnics,,their is nothing pure of turks than your people

----------


## ukaj

Hello my friend,,do you know much about albanians from herzgovinia?their was a albanian tribe whom came from herzgovinia highlands many many years ago,,

----------


## ukaj

It doesnt matter what the meaning is for kosovo if it is bulgarian slavnic or serbian slavnic,the word kos<<has nothing to do with kosovo other than it been changed from darda,darde,dardania etc,the pre name of kosova is a albanian word not slav,just as NIS it also is 100% albanian word, :Grin: .just like arta chemeira,etc all albanian words,,lol,,the slavnic dna i2a2 is no older than 2200bc it is a genetic drift.if I2a was dominate in croatia bosnia etc,then what was dominate before the slavnics migrated an please dont tell me they have been their since day one because it is a stupid statement,,as i said to this lobby,ev_13 is high in gheg albanians an they are north,kosova the highest an from kelmendi tribes and hoti,so this would mean again that most of north albanians are high percent of ev-13,witch means i2a2 could only be new settlers of that reigion,

----------


## ukaj

> Just Boring.


The *Bulgars (also Bolgars, Bulghars, Proto-Bulgarians,[1] Huno-Bulgars[2]) were a semi-nomadic people who flourished in the Pontic Steppe and theVolga basin in the 7th century. Ethnically, the Bulgars are thought to have been Oghur Turkic,[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] with Scytho-Sarmatian[14][15]and Sarmatian-Alan[16][17] elements. There is a discussion whether these Sarmatian elements in the cultural characteristics of the Proto-Bulgars are based on Sarmatized Turks or Turkicized Sarmatians.*

----------


## ukaj

> Look who is speaking of Turkish, Albanian and Turkish is all the same. Turkish + Gypsy + Serb= Albanian


Originating as nomadic equestrians of Central Asia, they became sedentary during the 7th century, establishing the polity (khanate) of Old Great Bulgaria in the Pontic steppe. However it was absorbed by the Khazar Empire in 668 AD. In 680 AD Khan Asparukh conquered Scythia Minor, opening access to Moesia, and established the First Bulgarian Empire, which was however slavicized by the 10th century. Another state calledVolga Bulgaria was established on the middle Volga circa 670 AD. Volga Bulgars preserved their national identity well into the 13th century by repelling the first Mongol attacks in 1223. But they were eventually subdued, and their capital Bolghar city became one of major cities of the Mongol Golden Horde. Later, the Volga Bulgars adopted the Kipchak language (with some or no Kipchak admixture) and became the Volga Tatars of the Khanate of Kazan and later modern Tatarstan.

----------


## ukaj

> Originating as nomadic equestrians of Central Asia, they became sedentary during the 7th century, establishing the polity (khanate) of Old Great Bulgaria in the Pontic steppe. However it was absorbed by the Khazar Empire in 668 AD. In 680 AD Khan Asparukh conquered Scythia Minor, opening access to Moesia, and established the First Bulgarian Empire, which was however slavicized by the 10th century. Another state calledVolga Bulgaria was established on the middle Volga circa 670 AD. Volga Bulgars preserved their national identity well into the 13th century by repelling the first Mongol attacks in 1223. But they were eventually subdued, and their capital Bolghar city became one of major cities of the Mongol Golden Horde. Later, the Volga Bulgars adopted the Kipchak language (with some or no Kipchak admixture) and became the Volga Tatars of the Khanate of Kazan and later modern Tatarstan.


The *early Slavs* were a diverse group of tribal societies during theMigration period and early medieval Europe (ca. 5th to 10th centuries) whose tribal organizations indirectly created the foundations for today’sSlavic nations (via the Slavic states of the High Middle Ages).[1]
The first mention of the name _Slavs_ dates to the 6th century, by which time the Slavic tribes inhabited a vast area of central-eastern Europe. Over the following two centuries, the Slavs expanded further, towards the Balkans and the Alps in the south and west, and the Volga in the north and east. [2]
From the 9th century, the Slavs were gradually Christianised, and by the 12th century, they formed the population within a number of medieval Christian states, the East Slavs in the Kievan Rus' andLithuania, the South Slavs in Bulgaria, Croatia and Serbia, and theWest Slavs in Poland and the Holy Roman Empire (Pomerania,Bohemia).

----------


## LeBrok

> The *early Slavs* were a diverse group of tribal societies during theMigration period and early medieval Europe (ca. 5th to 10th centuries) whose tribal organizations indirectly created the foundations for today’sSlavic nations (via the Slavic states of the High Middle Ages).[1]
> The first mention of the name _Slavs_ dates to the 6th century, by which time the Slavic tribes inhabited a vast area of central-eastern Europe. Over the following two centuries, the Slavs expanded further, towards the Balkans and the Alps in the south and west, and the Volga in the north and east. [2]
> From the 9th century, the Slavs were gradually Christianised, and by the 12th century, they formed the population within a number of medieval Christian states, the East Slavs in the Kievan Rus' andLithuania, the South Slavs in Bulgaria, Croatia and Serbia, and theWest Slavs in Poland and the Holy Roman Empire (Pomerania,Bohemia).


When you copy text from other websites you have to also past the link to the source document.

----------


## Marko94

> When you copy text from other websites you have to also past the link to the source document.


Wikipedia.
U can find to wikipedia.
I have just a question for you.
Why yaan don't is banned??
He in many post offend albanisns......

----------


## LeBrok

> Wikipedia.
> U can find to wikipedia.
> I have just a question for you.
> Why yaan don't is banned??
> He in many post offend albanisns......


He was already temporarily banned.

----------


## ukaj

I have been banned for standing up for my people hey leBrok,It kind of sucks for me to defend my people an culture an whom we are as a people.I wonder if you have banned the person above whom insulted me an other albanians,Anyway thanks

----------


## Jovan

You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.

----------


## Sile

> You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.


Dardanians where ancient people of modern Kosovo, you are missing over 1000 years of history talking about slavs and Ottomans , what happened to this history?

----------


## Jovan

> Dardanians where ancient people of modern Kosovo, you are missing over 1000 years of history talking about slavs and Ottomans , what happened to this history?


I don't know about that period. I can come with a theory, but I don't want. I just wanted to show you the real picture of how this people get there. They are recent immigrants and that there is no continuity between the people living there now and 500 years ago. On the first page some people said that kosovars ancestors were dardanians and that's why I wrote my post.  :Smile:

----------


## LeBrok

> You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.


I"m advising you to tone down your rhetoric against other ethnic groups or nationalities. Please be more objective in your posts.

----------


## Jovan

> I"m advising you to tone down your rhetoric against other ethnic groups or nationalities. Please be more objective in your posts.


From all those people cursing and insulting each other you quoted me and said this to me? I didn't say anything non-objective.. I knew that you (non-balkanic people) would think like that, but i'm just telling the truth. Come here and live 1 month and you'll see what I'm talking about. Their brains are washed by the propaganda of some radicals. For the ottoman time and the terror against the christians, we have lot of evidence.

----------


## FBS

> From all those people cursing and insulting each other you quoted me and said this to me? I didn't say anything non-objective.. I knew that you (non-balkanic people) would think like that, but i'm just telling the truth. Come here and live 1 month and you'll see what I'm talking about. Their brains are washed by the propaganda of some radicals. For the ottoman time and the terror against the christians, we have lot of evidence.


This thread is about Kosovar Albanian haplogoups. It does not say "what is your personal unscientific opinion about Gheg Albanians". Maybe you should test your haplogroup first as a start. :Good Job:

----------


## Marko94

> You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.


You slavs taking a hystory and believe to the people and country without having any connection.
Nationalism+Slavs=Fake hystory.
Look montenegro.
According to Venetian this place was inhabitates just by albanians, and now? Not just the place but also the name "Montenegro" is taked.
Montenegro is a name maked by Venetian used for albanians and the place...........

----------


## Ike

That is just a small part of todays Montenegro, and it's clearly stated where Slavs lived, and where did Albanians:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...enegro.svg.png

"Albanians lived in the south of the Venetian Albania around Ulcinj and Durrës. The area around Kotor was populated by Croats and Romance-speakers and was fully Catholic."

If you have DNA evidence that suggest different, present it. If not, stop with those pompous statements.

----------


## Marko94

> That is just a small part of todays Montenegro, and it's clearly stated where Slavs lived, and where did Albanians:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...enegro.svg.png
> 
> "Albanians lived in the south of the Venetian Albania around Ulcinj and Durrës. The area around Kotor was populated by Croats and Romance-speakers and was fully Catholic."
> 
> If you have DNA evidence that suggest different, present it. If not, stop with those pompous statements.


"The area around Kotor was populated by Croats and Romance-speakers and was fully Catholic."
*Facepalm".

"Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava, specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento.
Paulucci inoltre scrisse che vicino al confine con l'Albania vi erano grosse comunità di lingua albanese: Dulcigno era per metà albanese, per un quarto veneziana e per il rimanente quarto slava.[2]."
This is the right.
The Albania Venetians according to venetian was inhabited just by albanian and italian (venetian).

After 700 there was a great migration by the Slavs in Venetian Albanian. 
However for the DNA that serve? Is confirmed by Venetian, do not like the truth?
And for place is all coast annd is 30\35% of Montenegro.
And the name "Montenegro" was given by the Venetians for Venetian Albania.
How do you explain this?
Ventian think just Italian and Albanian living here.
After 700 with a big "immigration" by slavs had exceeded the local population.

----------


## Ike

I don't see a problem. Everyone agrees there was big Slav migration around 560 AD. 

Luigi Paulucci wrote about who was speaking what language. Look at your quote, do you see the underlined words _lingua Slava_ and_ lingua Albanese?_ This is genetics part of the forum. Someone speaking Venetian doesn't make him Venetian. What Hg were those people? Do you have any data about that?

I gave you negs for last 2 posts. Stick to the subject.

----------


## Marko94

> I don't see a problem. Everyone agrees there was big Slav migration around 560 AD. 
> 
> Luigi Paulucci wrote about who was speaking what language. Look at your quote, do you see the underlined words _lingua Slava_ and_ lingua Albanese?_ This is genetics part of the forum. Someone speaking Venetian doesn't make him Venetian. What Hg were those people? Do you have any data about that?
> 
> I gave you negs for last 2 posts. Stick to the subject.




What? What? What?
The Venetians when they conquered were divided administration.
A part made ​​her the Venetians and the other the local population.
Croats in Dalmatia also had a role in the administration.
He divided them with the language because the Venetian is not a Slavic language (and I hope you know) and Albanian is not a Slavic language.
You think that Montenegrins speak the Venetian? German? Let me understand this?
Montenegrin language don't is a language slav? A ok, i'm sorry.
According to you montenegrin language is a neolatin...........mhhhhhh, stop with this.
Listen me, don't continue.
In other thread you complained that "There are no official data on the Albanians".
Now i show to you "official census" and you say thngs no sense.
Your answer is no sense.

----------


## Ike

As the matter of fact your answer make no sense, but literally no sense. And it's all off topic, so we should end this.

----------


## Devils Advocate

> You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.


Excuse me, We are like Tribals? I am from these "Tribals" and Have a BSc and a MSc in Economics and Finance (From two of the top50 schools in the world), I know even more that are even higher educated than me from these "Tribals". But what can you do when most Macedonians are naive and think these "Tribals" are uneducated fools, also some of these "Tribals" are in the government too, we are all doomed!. Keep that thinking going, you will see what the future brings for you then :) I bet 100% that you live in one of the big cities and have never visited one of these "tribal" areas. My village is firstly described in greek books in the 1300, with an Illyrian name (still has the same name). We have never had Slav-Macedonians living there, been purely Albanian Catholics (Muslims from 1800s) (documented). Due to this, the neighbouring villages (both albanian and macedonian villages) thought that we killed any Macedonian that tok a step inside our "territory" (lol). This story was told to me by a Macedonian who I employed to build my house and water systems. After working there for 3 days he told me how afraid he had been before entering the village. I can say that I had a good laugh at that. He then said that he hadn't meet so nice people in ages. I get the same feeling about you from your comments. It seems that you really think the albanian villagers are like tribes from the ancient times, which in itself is rather extreme that anyone can believe that.... Id say it says more about you than anything else. I'll end this tirade with this comment, sorry mods but I just cannot leave stupid comments like those alone.

Ps: You give most Macedonians a bad name.

----------


## Ike

1. If we want to be fair we have to admit that half of Balkans have tribal mentality. Education independent. Goes for all nationalities.
2. Why don't you renounce Islam? It's obvious that you've been pushed into Arabic faith not so long ago.

----------


## Devils Advocate

2. We dont care about religion, im Albanian rest doesn't matter.

----------


## ukaj

> I didn't know that. Thank you a lot for the information!
> I am still waiting for full results from iGENEA. With your expertise, what do you think would be my ancient tribe? Even though I am R1b1a2.


So your surname is gashi from what i see in your name,,yes your dna will be diffrent from many tribes of albania such as krasnichi tribe whom were from north albania,,In my family i am not allowed to mix with your tribe for some reason.

----------


## ukaj

> Mhhh, i think u are just a stupid.
> The change of religon is contribuided by ottoman empire, u say "albanian make mafia".
> But is just a fake, go in italy, in italy russian and ukrainian are wors of albanian mafia or italian mafia.
> Albanian of today are only angry for governament, past and many things.
> In other topic, many people confirmed e-v13 enter in neolithc in europe.
> According to "utent of forum", kosovo is center of gene for Albanian.
> For me don't interest enter in UE or european feel.
> U have origin in vodkaland and we in africa.
> A no srry u can descendent from turkey.


You are wrong my friend if you think about an if you know about albanians an their tribes then you will know that most of kosova albanians are from north albania only a few albanians are from kosova an the albanians who were in kosova before the albanians from north albania were catholic albanians an were most of all albanians from north,Take this the biggest tribe of kosova is krasnichi they are from the region of troopja shkodra,,

----------


## gashi91

> So your surname is gashi from what i see in your name,,yes your dna will be diffrent from many tribes of albania such as krasnichi tribe whom were from north albania,,In my family i am not allowed to mix with your tribe for some reason.


Yes, my surname is Gashi. My family are from the "Dukagjin Region" in Kosovo in a small village called Qabiq (they traveled from a place/village called 'Buzhala/Buzhalë' in Albania some generations ago. Qabiq was not the first destination they settled to, but several other places in the Dukagjin Region). We're descendants from the Gashi tribe which by the way lived close to the 'Krasniqi (Krasnichi) tribe' in Northern Albania. I do not know the case in your family which forbids you to 'mix' with 'us', but as for the old traditions in the Gashi tribe/clan: One from the Gashi tribe cannot marry another from the Gashi tribe. 

*What do you mean with ' ...yes your DNA will be different from many tribes of Albania ' ?*

----------


## ukaj

> From all those people cursing and insulting each other you quoted me and said this to me? I didn't say anything non-objective.. I knew that you (non-balkanic people) would think like that, but i'm just telling the truth. Come here and live 1 month and you'll see what I'm talking about. Their brains are washed by the propaganda of some radicals. For the ottoman time and the terror against the christians, we have lot of evidence.


Jovan let me tell you something,My great granfather lived in kosova an he was very wealthy an didnt have issue with slavs,until they started to bully him for money,now my great grandfather was asked by 3 serbian policemen for money just because of the wealth he had an the vine yard he owned,, he refused,so they shot him in the head,for no reason does that sound peaceful?no it doesnt,my grandfather took revenge an killed all 3 policemen for killing his father as would any other man would around the world..the problem with serbian an albanian thing is that albanians dont take shit from serbians so if the slavs just stop the insults or desciminate them,or try to assimultae them,then their would not be a problem,also about dardania or kosova the modern name,i urge you to go in the church of decan a look at the 13ctry paintings on the wall then come back hear an tell me what you see on walls,i didnt know serbians wear the albanian plis,or the serbians were catholics,because my friend,all through that church you see catholic preists an albanians wearing the plis,,an another thing without being rude,macedonia is greek land from the old times,the modern people of macedonia are of bulgraian origion an yugoslavian aka serbians,so the was migration also from the slavs to macedonia in the 12ctry or 13thcrty,an in kosova catholic albanians fought with serbians against the ottomans so albanians were their hands down in thats time ask a educated serbian an he will say samething,,also macednia shkopje is albanian word from old times they live their because they have always lived their,no hard feeling an sorry if you are offended..god bless :Grin:

----------


## ukaj

> Jovan let me tell you something,My great granfather lived in kosova an he was very wealthy an didnt have issue with slavs,until they started to bully him for money,now my great grandfather was asked by 3 serbian policemen for money just because of the wealth he had an the vine yard he owned,, he refused,so they shot him in the head,for no reason does that sound peaceful?no it doesnt,my grandfather took revenge an killed all 3 policemen for killing his father as would any other man would around the world..the problem with serbian an albanian thing is that albanians dont take shit from serbians so if the slavs just stop the insults or desciminate them,or try to assimultae them,then their would not be a problem,also about dardania or kosova the modern name,i urge you to go in the church of decan a look at the 13ctry paintings on the wall then come back hear an tell me what you see on walls,i didnt know serbians wear the albanian plis,or the serbians were catholics,because my friend,all through that church you see catholic preists an albanians wearing the plis,,an another thing without being rude,macedonia is greek land from the old times,the modern people of macedonia are of bulgraian origion an yugoslavian aka serbians,so the was migration also from the slavs to macedonia in the 12ctry or 13thcrty,an in kosova catholic albanians fought with serbians against the ottomans so albanians were their hands down in thats time ask a educated serbian an he will say samething,,also macednia shkopje is albanian word from old times they live their because they have always lived their,no hard feeling an sorry if you are offended..god bless


This happen over 60 years ago so i can speak of this because my grandfather past,

----------


## noUseForAname

..........

----------


## noUseForAname

> I was wondering is there any data about haplogroups of Kosovo albanians because I'm interested to see is there any big difference between them and albanians from Albania? Because on this table there is nothin about Kosovo yet: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml


This is nothing related to nationalism but rather intent to shed light the whereabouts of real natives on their various locations based mostly on their recent DNA. 
When I mean NATIVES it would mean native for some specific timeframes because if we go even backwards in the human migrations and history everyone is a MIGRANT.
The very first human created is ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.

I may hypothesize based on DNA facts (listed below) the following:

1: I may hypothesize that Ancient Greeks and Ancient Macedonia (taking into account the ethnic majority) were comprised by current ethnic Albanians and Hellenic people
2: I may hypothesize based on the DNA facts data below that “*Illyrians* are direct descendants of *I2a haplogroup**.*
3: I may also hypothesize (based on DNA data and the current locations of modern Albanians and Greeks) that current modern Greeks are not the only descendants of Ancient Greeks but it comprises of other ancient tribes (see below 1 to 7). 
4: I may also hypothesize that current ethnic Albanians are neither the descendants of: Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Carpians (Carpathian) (and at that time there were no Greeks yet), but rather NATIVE people with the DNA of E-V13 which was pre Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, Carpian (Carpathian) and Ancient Greek and Macedonian.

If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current *ethnic Albanians* live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16% and I2a of 19%. In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.

1: *Arvanitas* based on Southwest Greece (*Arberesh,* who spoke a dialect of the Albanian language). It is also argued that Arvanitas were also on Peloponnese area of Greece. 
2: *Epirus* (Where Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg declared that he is a descendant of Epirus king of Pyrrhus), 
3: *Dardania* (current Kosovo)
4: Current *Albania* 
5: West (current) *Macedonia*. 
6: the Very South of current *Serbia*
7: South East and north East part of current *Montenegro*

E-V13 is 10,000 years old, then we can argue that current *ethnic Albanians* are *NATIVE* inhabitants of Europe, it should be interested to see what DNA would the kings of Ancient Greeks have. 
This also verifies why *Greek and Albanian language is 5000 years old* as argued in the recent study.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...bias%3Aw&_r=2&

It is argued that relatively small populations and the very non mixed of...Saami (Norway, Sweden, finish), Sardinians (Sardinia, very south of Mediterranean Dalmatia), Basques (North Spain) and *Kosovar Albanians* (Republic of Kosovo) are the very *NATIVES* of the European region.
Please refer to what native Saami, Sardinians, Basques and Kosovar Albanians should look alike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Kosovo

Autosomal DNA[edit]
Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of *identity by descent sharing*, suggesting that both *Albanians from Albania and Kosovo* derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous, as they share a significant amount of descent with nearby Macedonian, Greek and Italian populations.[103]The recent growth is particularly evident in Kosovar Albanians, which show particularly high levels of homogeneity, in contrast to the diversity otherwise found in other Balkan populations.[104]
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf
Novembre J. et al. (2008) Genes mirror geography within Europe, Nature doi:10.1038/nature07331

R1b (kelts, 22,000 years) J2 (middle-east 15,000 years) I1 (Vikings Scandinavians 20,000 years) R1a (Slavs - Russia, Poland 23,000 years) I2a1 (Sardinia, Dalmatia 8,000 years). E (54,000 years), E1b1b (42,000 years). E-V13 (10,000 years)

*Region/Haplogroup*
*I1*
*I2*/I2a*
*I2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*
*G*
*J2*
*J*/J1*
*E-V13*

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5

*Kosovo Albanians*
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5

*Albanians (Macedonia)*
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1

*Greece (Peloponnese)*








47

*Greece (South)*
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

*Greece (North)*
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4

*Greece (Crete)*

13

8.8
17

39

8.8

*Greece (Thrace)*

19

22
12

19

19

*Greece (ethnic Greeks)*

19

16
11.7
9
17

19

*Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)*
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1

*Bulgaria*
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5

*Bosniaks*
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10

*Bosnian Croats*
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9

*Bosnian Serbs*
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5

*Croatia*
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10

*Serbia*
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18



[IMG]file://localhost/Users/macpro/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image002.png[/IMG]
[IMG]file://localhost/Users/macpro/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image004.png[/IMG]

[IMG]file://localhost/Users/macpro/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0clip_image006.png[/IMG]
Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around *Albanian speaking regions* has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence*. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, *E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic*, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, *much earlier than the Bronze age*.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

This would claim that *E-V13 is not originated from Egypt* n*or even north Africa* as the percentage of E-V13 in those regions is minimal. This also claims that E-V13 is 10,000 years way before the Egypt era. Now if we are about to go even more backwards then E-V13 is originated from E1b1b , however because E1b1b is 42,000 years it would be almost impossible to find what race or their appearance are.

References:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Agawf3IRD4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M99ze151HvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqMmFS14JjA

----------


## noUseForAname

> You can't simply connect kosovars with dardanians. Before ottomans, people in kosovo were slavic speakers. The muslims were 1 class people in the ottoman empire, so the feudals in Kosovo were ghegs (albanians) and that's how the they came there. Gheg families always had more children than the slavic ones. Old people say that if the son was sterile, his father or brother would make "his" children. Also they are very aggressive and slavic people are peaceful, so they were (and still are) emigrating from their birthplaces. There wasn't law for the ghegs in the ottoman empire, they were raping, stealing, burning whole villages etc. In Macedonia people are leaving their birthplaces where albanians are majority (or 50-50) and they're migrating to more peaceful places. You can't live in the same village with them, they're like tribe although it's 21st century.


All that you are saying is only your Opinion, and this thread is only based on facts with DNA, if you dont have DNA facts and claim your opinion with sources then obviously this is not your place to be.

please see below the recent findings...i dont give opinions here, i only represent *scientific Sources*....

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, *E-V13*.[68] The area in and around *Albanian speaking regions* has the *highest known percentages E-V13 in the world*, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence*. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, *E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic*, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, *much earlier than the Bronze age*.

R1b (kelts, 22,000 years) J2 (middle-east 15,000 years) I1 (Vikings Scandinavians 20,000 years) R1a (Slavs - Russia, Poland 23,000 years) I2a1 (Sardinia, Dalmatia 8,000 years). E (54,000 years), E1b1b (42,000 years). E-V13 (10,000 years)

*Region/Haplogroup*
*I1*
*I2*/I2a*
*I2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*
*G*
*J2*
*J*/J1*
*E-V13*

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5

*Kosovo Albanians*
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5

*Albanians (Macedonia)*
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1

*Greece (Peloponnese)*








47

*Greece (South)*
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

*Greece (North)*
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4

*Greece (Crete)*

13

8.8
17

39

8.8

*Greece (Thrace)*

19

22
12

19

19

*Greece (ethnic Greeks)*

19

16
11.7
9
17

19

*Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)*
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1

*Bulgaria*
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5

*Bosniaks*
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10

*Bosnian Croats*
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9

*Bosnian Serbs*
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5

*Croatia*
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10

*Serbia*
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18



If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current *ethnic Albanians* live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo Albanians 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16% and I2a of 19%. In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.

So almost 50% of E-V13 which is 10,000 years is still in Kosovo up to this date, *how it is possible then as you said that it was all slavic before Ottomans?*.
*Slavic is R1a and in Kosovo its only 4.5% and Albania 9%.*

References:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

----------


## Ike

> So almost 50% of E-V13 which is 10,000 years is still in Kosovo up to this date, *how it is possible then as you said that it was all slavic before Ottomans?*.


You've missed the fact that you're using 2000 AD distribution, and drawing conclusions about 1300 AD?

Not to mention that there is not a single evidence that E-V13 was on Kosovo 10,000 years ago. Or even 5,000 years ago.

----------


## noUseForAname

> You've missed the fact that you're using 2000 AD distribution, and drawing conclusions about 1300 AD?
> 
> Not to mention that there is not a single evidence that E-V13 was on Kosovo 10,000 years ago. Or even 5,000 years ago.


1: I am referring to e-V13 10,000 YBP
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

2: The evidence is that Kosovo has 47.5% E-V13 (people that live there), and its known that E-V13 is 10,000 ybp old. Recently they have found a 7,000 year skeleton wich was E-V13...please see the references 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence*. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, *E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic*, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, *much earlier than the Bronze age*. 

So with facts we know that it is 7000 years old but it is argued that its at least 10,000 years old
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

----------


## Ike

Not another one...

----------


## noUseForAname

> Not another one...


I dont understand your quote sir...

----------


## Ike

> I dont understand your quote sir...


Not another one to make conclusions like this:




> The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, *E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic*, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, *much earlier than the Bronze age*. 
> 
> So with facts we know that it is 7000 years old but it is argued that its at least 10,000 years old
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

----------


## Angela

Neither do I. That particular post is solid science.

It's incontrovertible that E-V13 was in Europe 7,000 years ago, and it's incontrovertible that this ancient sample is related to modern samples in the countries listed. 

It's also a fact that the current distribution is due to an expansion during the Bronze Age.

Inter-ethnic conflicts should play no part in analyses of the data.

Ed. See post 150 for the relevant citations:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...259#post440259

----------


## noUseForAname

> Not another one to make conclusions like this:


*Sir* it is a scientific facta *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence
*They tested the skeletons DNA, This is *a solid scientific fact* and it is recent, when the DNA is involved it makes it even more *conclusive*.
I suggest you read the whole paper of Lacan et al. (2011)
Speculations about his look….
http://www.livescience.com/42838-eur...sequenced.html

Some more facts with resources...
Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, *E-V13*.[68] The area in and around *Albanian speaking regions* has the *highest known percentages E-V13 in the world*, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere *descend from a common ancestor* who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that *men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic*, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about *85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes* with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

*Region/Haplogroup*
*I1*
*I2*/I2a*
*I2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*
*G*
*J2*
*J*/J1*
*E-V13*

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5

*Kosovo Albanians*
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5

*Albanians (Macedonia)*
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1

*Greece (Peloponnese)*








47

*Greece (South)*
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

*Greece (North)*
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4

*Greece (Crete)*

13

8.8
17

39

8.8

*Greece (Thrace)*

19

22
12

19

19

*Greece (ethnic Greeks)*

19

16
11.7
9
17

19

*Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)*
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1

*Bulgaria*
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5

*Bosniaks*
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10

*Bosnian Croats*
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9

*Bosnian Serbs*
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5

*Croatia*
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10

*Serbia*
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

----------


## Ike

> Neither do I. That particular post is solid science.
> 
> It's incontrovertible that E-V13 was in Europe 7,000 years ago, and it's incontrovertible that this ancient sample is related to modern samples in the countries listed.


He was not talking about Europe, but about Kosovo.




> It's also a fact that the current distribution is due to an expansion during the Bronze Age.


Sorry but it isn't. Those are *not* called facts. Those are only statistical predictions. And they don't prove anything.




> Inter-ethnic conflicts should play no part in analyses of the data.


What do you mean ethnic? How is one supposed to know the ethnicity of E-V13 some 5-10 years ago?!

----------


## Ike

> *Sir* it is a scientific facta *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence
> *They tested the skeletons DNA, This is *a solid scientific fact* and it is recent, when the DNA is involved it makes it even more *conclusive*.
> I suggest you read the whole paper of Lacan et al. (2011)
> Speculations about his look….
> http://www.livescience.com/42838-eur...sequenced.html
> 
> Some more facts with resources...
> Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, *E-V13*.[68] The area in and around *Albanian speaking regions* has the *highest known percentages E-V13 in the world*, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere *descend from a common ancestor* who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that *men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic*, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]
> 
> ...



I've read the whole paper, and checked all the data tables while ago. You still seem not to understand what's the problem with your conclusions.
You understand that "it is though" in not the same as "it is certain"?

----------


## Angela

> He was not talking about Europe, but about Kosovo.
> 
> 
> Sorry but it isn't. Those are *not* called facts. Those are only statistical predictions. And they don't prove anything.
> 
> 
> What do you mean ethnic? How is one supposed to know the ethnicity of E-V13 some 5-10 years ago?!


I have no idea what either of you is trying to prove, but it seems to have something to do with "ethnic" or "nationalistic" rivalry in the Balkans. What I do know is that such concerns should not affect scientific analysis.

What is *fact* is that E-V13 is *7,000 years old in Europe.* What is *fact* is that this sample is related to samples in *Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence.

*That is not mathematical projection. It is based on the *testing and comparison* of actual yDna. 

The actual yDna of men bearing E-V13 in the Balkans has also been tested. It's phylogeny is clear. It is also a *fact* that *most* of it forms one cluster, with very little variation. 

It is the scientific consensus that when there is very little variation in yDna lineages, it indicates a relatively recent expansion from a small founder population. If you want to argue that the dates are off and the expansion did not take place in the Bronze Age because of the controversy over mutation rates, be my guest. The alternative to using the pedigree rate is to use the Zhivitosky rates, which are *2 1/2 times older,* and which would put the expansion in the Balkans way back into the Neolithic. 

I have yet to see any *scientific* data or analysis contradicting any of this. 

As to the exact location of the specific E-V13 mutation, the jury is still out. Arguments can be made either way. The precise migration route taken by E-V13 is also not totally settled, but it *is* clear that it formed part of the Cardial expansions, and Cardial is intimately associated with the Adriatic coastal area of the Balkans, as was made clear in the map I posted.

Ed. Of course, yDna is sometimes a poor predictor of autosomal similarity, as it is subject to founder effect, drift and possible natural selection factors etc. There is also an unfortunate tendency among some men to forget that they have mothers. Given what we know of situations where there has been primarily male mediated gene flow, the offspring in a very few generations might not share very much of the autosomal make up of the original yDna founder.

----------


## noUseForAname

> I've read the whole paper, and checked all the data tables while ago. You still seem not to understand what's the problem with your conclusions.
> You understand that "it is though" in not the same as "it is certain"?


Sir, again, whatever you are pointing out is your opinion and i respect that. I am showing you scientific facts and you are coming with what is certain and what it is thought.
whom do you give *more weight* regarding the facts, to your individual opinion or to scientific papers, research and DNA tests?

It is certain that *7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man.* It is certain that *Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13. (this is even higher than those of current greeks)
*It is certain that E-V13 is at least since the *Neolithic period*
It is certain that E-V13 r_epresents about_ *85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes* (this shows that it didnt came from north Africa nor western Europe nor West Asia cause of lower frequencies _western Europe 2.5%_ _Anatolia (3.8%)_ _Near East (2.0%)_ _Caucasus (1.8%)__ A__frica at a low frequency (0.9%) Therefore it is certain that_ _that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere_ *descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic.* Now this is only certain for the Neolithic period which is 10, 000 years. What happened before is a different topic.

----------


## Ike

My mistake. Sorry for interrupting. You're right.

----------


## Arban Hoti

maybe i'm wrong , i might have misunderstood you , but do you say that the Slavs have two HG's , R1a and I2 , if yes than i now 'see' that I is descendant of E.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> albanians are hamitic people coming from natoufians , they are the first people of europe their langage is a mix of aramaic and sumerian
> erebos : dawn in greek ; ereb : dawn in albanian ( homeric langage ) ; ereb: dawn in arabic


With the term ‘hamitic’ do you mean ‘african ‘?!

----------


## Dibran

> With the term ‘hamitic’ do you mean ‘african ‘?!


He does. However, he's entirely wrong. Also, judging by one post, probably a T-Roll.

----------


## Fatherland

> He does. However, he's entirely wrong. Also, judging by one post, probably a *T-Roll*.


Why is that word even censored here?  :Laughing:

----------


## Dibran

> Why is that word even censored here?



Lol I wonder the same hahah

----------

