# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Who where the Sabines?

## adamo

Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )

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## Nobody1

Indo-Europeans for starters and all linked to the (Indo-European) Umbrians

*Isaac Taylor* - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
_Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland._



*Pliny* - Natural History (79 AD)
_"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." 
"They suppose that the Umbri, or, as the Greeks call them, Ombrioi, are so named, because they survived the inundation of the world by floods of rain (imbribus)." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)_

*James C. Prichard* - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
_Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period._
[*Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse*]
[*Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago*]

---

*Sabines & Samnites*

_Sabines_ as well as the _Samnites_ were *Umbrian*_ Indo-European_ branches, that mixed with the pre-Indo-European _Oenotrian-Pelasgians_ in South Italy and the pre-Indo-European Ligurians in North and Pelasgians in Central Italy.

*James Cowles Prichard* - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
_Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,_

*Thomas Henry Dyer* - The history of the kings of Rome (1886)
_These various races are commonly ranked under the three grand divisions of Umbrians, Sabellians, and Latins; though some writers, as Dr. Mommsen, recognise only two, including under the Umbrians those races which others call Sabellian. The Sabellian races included the Sabines and the Samnites, with the tribes which sprung from them, as the Marsi, Marrucini, Peligni, Picentes, Hirpini, and others. The near connexion between theSabines and the Samnites is shewn by the fact that the latter called themselves Safini with a change of b into f And that the term Sabellus was applied both to Samnites and Sabines appears from several passages in ancient authors. Horace uses it of both races. Pliny says that the Samnites were called Sabelli, and Livy identifies the Sabellian territory with that of Samnium._

Also the _Sacrani_ are identified with the *Sabines* and their _Ver Sacrum_ (Sacred Spring).

*Princely tomb from the Sabine Hills* - all in NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK (Denmark) 
http://www.glyptoteket.com/explore/t...b-sabine-hills

*Sabine* - Bronze shields from the Sabine Hills (near Rome) - NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK


*Sabine* - Sun Disk from the tomb from _Fara in Sabina_


*Samnite* warrior - [Capua fresco 4th cen BC] / *Samnite* helmet from_ Lavello_
 

Needless to say that the _Samnites_ had massive influence from _Magna Graecia_, same for the _Lucani_ and _Brutii_. 

But the Greeks considered them all (incl. Romans) Barbarians.

*Dionysius of Halicarnasses* - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
_But, if any are, naturally, slow in giving credit to accounts of ancient transactions without examination, let them be so in believing them to be Ligures, Umbri, or any other Barbarians;_

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## Nobody1

*Pelasgians

John Denison Baldwin* - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
_Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race._

The Pelasgians from Thessaly are described to have entered Italy via the Mouth of the Po. 
*
Dionysius of Halicarnasses* - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
_greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines_.

2 waves of Pelasgians, first from Arcadia (_Oenotri_) and the second from Thessaly (_Tyrsenoi_)

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## adamo

Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?

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## Nobody1

> Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?


Not Thessalian Greeks, just Pelasgians from Thessaly.
However you are correct, *Herodotus* places the origin of the _Tyrsenoi_ in Lydia (_West Asia Minor_); its *Dionysius* who places the origins of the _Tyrsenoi_ in Thessaly.
Personally i think its absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean the Tyrsenoi-Pelasgians originated.
*Sabines* are proper_ Umbrians_,* Samnites* and* Marsi* just mixed Umbro-Pelasgians (_Oenotrians_) in the South of Italy (Saturnia).

Whats really interesting is that the Pelasgians on Lemnos were also called Tyrsenoi.

*Jan Gijsbert Pieter Best* - Thracians and Mycenaeans (1989)
_Now, at this point it is interesting to note that the Pelasgoi, who according to Strabo fled from Boeotia to Athens and settled at the foot of the Hymettos, are identified by Thucydides with the  Tyrrhenoi (= Tyrsenoi or Tarsinoi), occupying Lemnos and Chalkidike during the historical period_

and its no coincident that exactly at Lemnos (East Aegean) , was were found the famous _Stele_ 
resembling the Etruscan (Tyrsenoi) language.

Lemnos stele [6th cen BC]

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## adamo

So Samnites and marsians are Umbrians that picked up pelasgian element. Where did the Thessalians originally come from? If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"

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## Nobody1

> Where did the Thessalians originally come from?


*Strabo* - Geographica (23AD)
_As for the Pelasgi_, _almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly_.

*Peter Derow* - Herodotus and his World (2003)
_Herodotos claims, in various statements, that all Greeks except the Dorians were originally Pelasgians. In 1.56-8 he characterizes the lonians as Pelasgians, whom he represents as non-Greeks who became Hellenized. Elsewhere he says that the Aeolians and the Arcadians were Pelasgian,_




> If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time


Apparently the Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) were chased out of Lemnos and then settled near Mount Athos.

*Simon Hornblower* - A Commentary on Thucydides: Books IV-V (1991)
_Thucydides, still talking about the ethnic make-up of the Athos peoples, mentions Pelasgians descended from the Tyrrhenians, i.e. Etruscans, who once inhabited Lemnos.

_


> being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"


Sea Peoples, are a very interesting point also in connection with Sardinia. But its mostly all not very conclusive, so it will remain a mystery.

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## dublin

I can't believe that you have opened this thread. Now that is synchronicity. It is the Samnites who led me to Vinca, via Illyria, Arcadia, Thessaly and Thrace. I have pile of material and was planning to present it all on the vinca culture tread. 

For now guys all i can say is follow the wolf.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samnium

Look at the Samnite flag....

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## adamo

Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians and not J2 "Sannoi" Tzannoi of Georgia Armenia region. But then why where Sabines often in fatal conflict with the latins who eventually "subdued" the rest of the italics....also there is the Osco-Umbrian linguistic link of these R1b men, but I always thought that oscans ( Opici) where somehow pelasgians linked to greek opus or the Opsician area of influence in northwestern Anatolia near Troad (Troy.) also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...

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## dublin

> Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians


Yes germano-Celtic-Illyrian but I2, not R1b, haplogroup.

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## Nobody1

> also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...


Correct, (thats why i gave you the plus)

But who exactly was Dardanus? Dardanus was son of Corythus, *King of Cortona*

*Brian Benjamin Shefton* - Greek identity in the Western Mediterranean (2004)
_According to Hellanicus (FGrHist 4 F 4), the Pelasgians founded Cortona in Etruria, coming from Spina._

from post#3
*
Dionysius of Halicarnasses* - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
_And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines_.[Spina]

we are talking about the exact same Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi), as mentioned before (2nd wave - Tyrsenoi). Your link to Asia Minor is very cool, might indicate that *Herodotus* was correct and not *Dionysius*.

The Tyrsenoi-Umbrian link is also well attested:

*Cambrian Institute* - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius _(Frag._ _De._ _Ital.);_
_"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."_

The Villanova culture [Villanova I 1100-900 BC _and_ Villanova II 900-700 BC] of the Urnfield complex was an Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) _hybrid.

from:_ *Kristian Kristiansen* - Europe before History (1998)


The *Umbrians* were Indo-Europeans of the Bronze age (Terremare culture) and akin to the Indo-European Kelts.

*Pliny* - Natural History (79 AD)
_"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)_

*Cambrian Institute* - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius _(De_ _Divis._ _Ital.,)_;
_"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."_
[*Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.*]

*James C. Prichard* - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
_Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period._
[*Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse*]
[*Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago*]

the linguistic link between Keltic and Italic, via _Umbrian_

*Luke Owen Pike* - The English and their Origin (1866)
_If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;_

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## adamo

Maeonians in Italy..amazing so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...they absorbed dardanian/Tyrrhenian elements? Same for oscans as well? A mix maybe?

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## Nobody1

> so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....


If *Herodotus* is correct yes, if *Dionysius* is correct its Thessaly. But again absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean they originated from. Pelasgians are Pelasgians.




> the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...


Whats not to get???

*The Umbrians*

*Isaac Taylor* - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
_Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland._

*Pliny* - Natural History (79 AD)
_"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)_

*Cambrian Institute* - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
_"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."_
[*Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.*]

*James C. Prichard* - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
_Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period._
[*Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse*]
[*Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago*]

*James Cowles Prichard* - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
_Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

_Umbrians are Bronze age Indo-Europeans akin to Kelts and the Sabines, the Oscans etc. were all Umbrians.


*The Pelasgians*

*John Denison Baldwin* - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
_Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race._

*Dionysius of Halicarnasses* - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
_greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines._

The Pre-Indo-European Pelasgians came to Italy in 2 waves from Arcadia (Oenotrians) and from the East Aegean (Tyrsenoi)


*The scenario in Italy*
*
Cambrian Institute* - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius (Frag. De. Ital.);
_"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."_*

The result* = _Villanova culture_ I (1100-900 BC) - II (900 - 700 BC)


*The other Umbrians* 

*Dionysius* - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
_The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people._ 

not all Umbrians were absorbed into the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi [_becoming the Etruscan Civilization_] - there were many other Umbrians in Italy.
Other Umbrians remained independant until Roman times [Sabines or as Umbrians]
Others like the Insubres (IsOMBRI) absorbed Ligurians [Umbro-Ligures], others absorbed Pelasgian Oenotrians [Samnites]

the Greek *Polybius* wrote about Italia during the Early Roman Republic: 

*Polybius* - Histories (focus: *225 BC*)
_Next come the Etruscans and after them both slopes are inhabited by the Umbrians.....The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani......The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani.....but the main body of the Insubres, Boii, and Taurisci, once the javelineers had withdrawn into the ranks and the Roman maniples attacked them, met the enemy and kept up a stubborn hand-to‑hand combat. For, though being almost cut to pieces, they held their ground, equal to their foes in courage, and inferior only, as a force and individually, in their arms._ - Battle of Telamon - 

Umbrians, Sabines and Insubres all still a multitude during the Early Roman Republic and beyond.-


*Stele of Bormio* [4th cen BC] - _Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy_ (Raetic warriors)

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## Yetos

@ Nobody 

I don't know about 2 waves but yes I agree that Pelasgians went to Italy and named Etruscans.
a minor Asian population.

Ομβριοι Ubrians yes means rain people,

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## adamo

Look at the text he contributed....then you come along to confirm "Ubrians is rain people's".....nice! Thanks for that yetos : )

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## zanipolo

when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy. the cenomanni came from marseilles area in the south of france , they where neigbours of the volcae ( who eventually went to bavaria) and pushed the raetic people into the alps, they ( cenomanni ) eventually settled in verona and cremona areas. The taurisci went as far as vienna and there "related" namesakes the taurini settled in piedmont. The carni ( gascon celts) settled in friuli and western slovenia. 

The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.

Why do I mention this , because the celtic invasion down lombardy sweeping into romagna to the adriatic happened around 500BC , the umbrians where already isolated further south and played no part in northern Italy ( if they ever did ). Unless you are leading to some conclusion which I cannot see, then please advise what is the point

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## adamo

Didn't the cenomani come from French cenomani of north-western France near Brittany? Carnutes are also from north-central France near the same area more or less, no? Insubres has a name of a regional "canton" of the Aeudui tribe.

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## Nobody1

> when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy


No Kidding, 




> The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.


really,

*Giovanni Battista Giani* - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
_Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume_
*TRANSLATION -*
_The same Livio (Livy) then by saying that the Roman army crossing the Ticino, leading the field in the agrum Insubrium,....peoples from one to the other shore; being well-known that the Insubres inhabited between the 'Adda and Ticino, also forwarded beyond this river_

*Tabula Peutingeriana* - ~500AD - _Roman map_
[_Insubres_ - between Tessin - Adda - Oglio]


*Polybius* - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
_The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani_

*John T. Koch* - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
_The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature._

Thats were History and Archaeology go hand in hand;


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area 



So its safe to say that the Insubres dwelt between Tessin and Adda (a good part of Lombardy) and were def. one of the largest tribes. 


*The Insubres*

*Matthias Koch* - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
_Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,_
*TRANSLATION -*
_Strikingly, however, always remains that the Umbrians name is in the Insubres name. Polybius, the first who called the Insubres, writes oi'Iσομβροι, and 'Oμροι and 'Oμßρixoi called by the Greeks the Umbrians,_

*Edward Gibbon* - Miscellaneous Vol.5 (1814)
_I reckoned the Insubres among the Gauls, on the authority of all the ancients;....Polybius indeed calls them Isombri, which in Celtic signifies the Lower Ombri. But Polybius acknowledges them for Gauls;_

*Sir William Smith* - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1861)
_But Livy has not explained the origin of the Insubres; and if the Insubres were in North Italy before this invasion, and were a Celtic people, they must have come in a former immigration; and if Is-umbri is the genuine form of the word, we may assume that they were Umbri, who had long been settled in the basin of the Po._ 
*
Christian Keferstein* - Ansichten über die keltischen Alterthümer Vol.2 (1849)
_Die Olombri (von ol im Keltischen hoch) bewohnten, die Gebirge, die Isombri oder (Insubres (von is im Keltischen niedrig) die Ebenen und hatten Mailand zum Mittelpunkt, die Vilombri (von bei das Ufer) die Ufergegenden, das Umbria am adriatischen Meere, im heutigen Kirchenstaate, war ein sehr blähendes Land, mit 358 Städten, das etwa 4 Jahrhunderte vor Roms Erbauung sehr mächtig war; die Umbrer verbreiteten sich sehr weit, auf der Ostseite Italiens durch einen Theil von Etrurien und bis über die Tiber; zu ihnen gehörten die Sabini (nach Dionys. von Halicarnass), auch die Aborigines in Latinm, die auch (nach Ammian. Marcell. I. 15. 9.) als Kelten oder Galater bezeichnet werden. 
TRANSLATION -
The Olombri inhabited (ol in Celtic high), the mountains, the Isombri or (Insubres (is the Celtic low), the plains and had Mailand (Mediolanum) as their center, the Vilombri (of at the shore) the waterfronts, the Umbria on the Adriatic sea in today's Church state, was a very packed country, with 358 cities, which was about 4 centuries before Rome edification very powerful, and the Umbrians spread very far, on the east side of Italy by a part of Etruria and beyond the Tiber; of them were the Sabini (by Dionysius. Halicarnass), the Aborigines in Latium, which are also known (by Ammianus. Marcell. I. 15 9) as Celts or Galatians._


The Insubres are just [Is-Umbri] low-land Umbrians.

all of this is of course supported by:

*Dionysius* - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
_The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people._ 

*Pliny* - Natural History (79 AD)
_The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy._ —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

*James Cowles Prichard* - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
_Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,_

also important to note:

*Henry Malden* - History of Rome (1830)
_It is possible however that the Symbri [sYMBRI], whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti, may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration._


*Anymore Questions!*

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## zanipolo

> No Kidding, 
> 
> 
> 
> really,
> 
> *Giovanni Battista Giani* - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
> _Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume_
> *TRANSLATION -*
> ...



ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss , part Piemont and zero east lombard .......maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue


anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...ne_Insubre.GIF

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## julia90

Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe

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## Nobody1

> Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe


Strictly concerning Anthropology of the Caucasoid sub-races [_Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Armenoid_] 

Not just the* Mediterranid* [Caucasoid] sub-race (_Dolichocephalic_) inhabited *Pre*-Indo-European Italy, 
also the* Alpinoid* [Caucasoid] sub-race (_Brachycephalic_)

*Smithsonian Institution* - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
_In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race._


This *Alpinoid* (_Brachycephalic_) is associated with the *Pre*-Indo-European _Ligurians_ 
[akin to the *non*-Indo-European _Lapps_]

*Roberto Bosi* - The Lapps (1977)
_Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain._

*Lucan* - Pharsalia (65 AD)
_Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations [Barbarians], on whose necks Once flowed the auburn [reddish-brown] locks in pride supreme;_


Needless to say that the *Indo-European* _Umbrians_ mixed with these *Pre*-Indo-European _Ligurians_ 
as is attested by Archaeological/Anthropological studies and Historical testimony:

*Anthropological Society of London* - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
_"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans._

*Plutarch* - Lives (120 AD)
_the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin._

---

also north of the alps such a mix happened between the *Indo-European*_ Kelts_ and a *Pre*-Indo-European _Brachycephalic_ *Alpinoid* people, as attested in the diff. between the Hallstatt and Swiss-lake dwellers.

*Sir William Ridgeway* - The early age of Greece Vol.1 (1901)
_It has been pointed out by Dr Verneau "that there is a strong likeness between the skulls from the tumuli of Glasinatz and those found in the graves of Hallstatt, the majority being in both cases dolichocephalic, a craniological phenomenon which is reversed in the case of the Swiss Lake-dwellers._

*George Bradshaw* - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
_Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed._

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## Nobody1

> ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss


swiss? 
Thats Historical Lombardy [_Tessin - Misox - Bergell - Puschlav_], Swiss couldnt conquer it (Battle of Crevola) so they made a treaty with the French and annexed it.

Historical Lombardy





> maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue


Issues with whom? 
Lombardy was never a state just an historical region; _fiefdom_ of the Holy Roman Empire.
The medieval _Lombard League_ (Battles: _Legnano, Cortenuova, Parma, Fossalta_) is the closest the Lombards ever came to unity; but even there half the Lombard comunes were Imperial Loyal.

Lombard League_
Cremona - Brixia - Bergamum - Mediolanum_ - *Porta Romana* _relief_ 1171, Milan





> anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres


Good map, goes to show how the Iron-age is still manifested in many regions.

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## adamo

I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

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## Nobody1

> I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.


Yup, 
thats the *Gallic* (LaTene) Iron-age migration of ~400 BC; _Senones - Cenomani - Boii - Lingoni_
All from Gaul, except the *Boii*, they came from Bohemia via the eastern Alps.

For me personally the *Boii* are the most interesting and the once with the greatest legacy.

_perfect example_ of a *Boii* -_ Montefortino type_ helmet; from Monterenzio Vecchio, Bologna - North Italy

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## adamo

Don't forget bellovesus's bituriges cubii, aedui, arverni, ambarri and aulerci also!

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## adamo

Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)

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## MOESAN

> Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)


Sorry Adamo, I seem answering you in this post but in fact I 'm just doing some more general remarks:
in this thread I saw a huge quantity of old, TOO old surveys about history and linguistic - (even if I know old works keep always some worth in some aspect:) they would be balanced by more fresh studies - 
and antrhopological studies too have to be refreshed - brachy- & dolichocephally by themselves have few value, they are only part of numerous traits we have to examine; it 's not saying they have none as say someones -
for I red Osco-Umbrians came lately enough (Iron Age) into N-E Italy first before going down in the "high boot" - and as I said (and other than me) in other thread, 'pelasgian' is a very IMPRECISE term concerning ethny and language, helas! I think Latines (and Sabines considered by linguists as cousins to them) came before Osco-Umbrians, even if from a same primitive old human stock) - maybe the 'terramare' ab- 1500 BC?(there were 'terramare' in Hungary, according to some scholars) of the Pô valley were the first Latines colonizing more ancient mix of Ligurians and predecessors (history in often a succession of sediments layers (strata))

I have no detailed opinion - just let's be carefull with some old studies

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## Nobody1

@ binx

Yes, *

Euganei* and *Stoni* were _Ligurians_, 
*Eneti* were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the *Raeti* and there connections to the *Etruscans* are more complex;

-The *Etruscans* were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European *Umbrians*;

*Dionysius of Halicarnassus* - 
_And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece._
-
_Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli._ 
-----
*
Aborigines* were identified by *Strabo* as the _Umbrians_;



*John Denison Baldwin* - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
_Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race._

These other _Pelasgians_ from _Thessaly_ are as *Dionysius* informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. *Herodotus* places the _Tyrsenoi_ in Lydia;

The *Pelasgi* _Oenotrians_ [from Arcadia (first wave)] and 
the *Pelasgi* _Tyrsenoi_ [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the *Raeti* is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the _Pelasgian_ Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

*Dionysius of Halicarnasses* - 
_greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines_.

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## binx

> Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )


Sabines, Samnites, Oscans, Umbrians, Brutii, Volscians, Marsi and Latins... are all Italic people of indoeuropean origins.

Probably also the Sicels (Italian and Latin: Siculi) were an indoeuropean people, linked with the Italics.

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## binx

> @ binx
> 
> Yes, *
> 
> Euganei* and *Stoni* were _Ligurians_, 
> *Eneti* were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)
> 
> But the *Raeti* and there connections to the *Etruscans* are more complex;
> 
> -The *Etruscans* were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European *Umbrians*;


I completely agree with you. 

And I agree, the connection between *Raeti* and *Etruscans* are more complex. But if there is a connection, and probably there's, this connection brings us to the Northern Caucasus.

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## Yetos

> @ binx
> 
> Yes, *
> 
> Euganei* and *Stoni* were _Ligurians_, 
> *Eneti* were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)
> 
> But the *Raeti* and there connections to the *Etruscans* are more complex;
> 
> ...


I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd, 
the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war. 
significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea.
and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.

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## Nobody1

> I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd, the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war. significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea. and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.


There is no specific date for the second wave;

The _first wave_ of Pelasgians from Arcadia [_Oenotrians_] is recorded as _17 generations before the Trojan war_; *- Dionysius*
The *second wave* is only mentioned in connection with a famine *- Herodotus* ; and upon arrival in Saturnia (italy) with the expulsion of the _Siculi_ from the Apennines *- Strabo*;

However *Thucydides* informs us that the arrival of the _Siculi_ in Sicily was many years after the Trojan war; so the _second wave_ [Tyrsenoi / Tyrrenean] must have occurred after the Trojan war;

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## zanipolo

> @ binx
> 
> Yes, *
> 
> Euganei* and *Stoni* were _Ligurians_, 
> *Eneti* were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)
> 
> But the *Raeti* and there connections to the *Etruscans* are more complex;
> 
> ...



2 other euganei tribes you did not mention
among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia and the Camunni of Val Camonica.[2]

It is impossible that the etruscans and raeti are related, the raeti arrived in europe more than 2000 years before the etruscans. There only association was due to raeti using etrucan as a trade language, but the venetics did that too in the "TRADE" junction between brescia and verona. Only one tablet of etruscan was found north of brescia and that was at bolzano

someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of

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## zanipolo

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Middle bronze-age period....blue are ligurians as per italian historical papers

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## binx

> someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of


Someone (some of the most well-known Russian historical linguists) stated that Etruscans language is North-Caucasian, to be precise. You can easily find all the references You need about that. 

Etruscans had a very complex story, and They were not G2 only.


From Università Ca' Foscari Venezia

*Il retico
*
_Le iscrizioni 'retiche' sono così definite dal nome di una popolazione anticamente stanziata nell'area alpina, i Reti, e provengono dall'area prealpina ed alpina orientale, in particolare dalle attuali province di Verona e Vicenza, dal Trentino-Alto Adige, dal Tirolo e dalla Val Engadina. Sono circa duecento iscrizioni, in un alfabeto derivato da quello etrusco, con pochi adattamenti. Si tratta di testi, spesso brevi e frammentari, di difficile inquadramento anche per i problemi di interpretazione finora posti dalla lingua. Il retico infatti è una lingua non indeuropea, per cui gli studi più recenti hanno accertato una consistente affinità con l'etrusco. Tra le iscrizioni si riconoscono nuclei consistenti a carattere votivo; i principali luoghi di ritrovamento sono Magrè (Vicenza), Sanzeno (Bolzano) e la Valpolicella (Verona).


http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412


_*«* _His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto._ *»

*


(*Plinius Maior*, _Naturalis historia_, III, 133)


_

_

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## zanipolo

> _
> 
> _*«* _His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto._ *»
> 
> *
> 
> 
> (*Plinius Maior*, _Naturalis historia_, III, 133)
> 
> ...


with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me

concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe

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## MOESAN

> I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.


I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps - 
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old - 
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think - 
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

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## binx

> with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me
> 
> concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe


This is the right translation

_With them (the Norici=Celts also called_ Taurisci_) confine Raeti and Vindelici, all divided into many communities. It is believed that the Raeti, descendants of the Etruscans, led by Reto, were driven out by the Gauls._

This is the whole paragraph. If You need, I can help You translating it.

_Incolae Alpium multi populi, sed inlustres a Pola ad Tergestis regionem Fecusses, Subocrini, Catali, Menoncaleni iuxtaque Carnos quondam Taurisci appellati, nunc Norici. his contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. verso deinde in Italiam pectore Alpium Latini iuris Euganeae gentes, quarum oppida XXXIIII enumerat Cato._

2) This is from Titus Livius, _Historiae R.,_ V, 33

_Tuscorum ante Romanum imperium late terra marique opes patuere. Mari supero inferoque quibus Italia insulae modo cingitur, quantum potuerint nomina sunt argumento, quod alterum Tuscum communi uocabulo gentis, alterum Hadriaticum [mare] ab Hatria, Tuscorum colonia, uocauere Italicae gentes, Graeci eadem Tyrrhenum atque Adriaticum uocant. Ei in utrumque mare uergentes incoluere urbibus duodenis terras, prius cis Appenninum ad inferum mare, postea trans Appenninum totidem, quot capita originis erant, coloniis missis, quae trans Padum omnia loca,—excepto Venetorum angulo qui sinum circumcolunt maris,—usque ad Alpes tenuere. Alpinis quoque ea gentibus haud dubie origo est, maxime Raetis, quos loca ipsa efferarunt ne quid ex antiquo praeter sonum linguae nec eum incorruptum retinerent._

Before the Roman empire the influence of the Etruscans was much more extended by land and by sea; how very powerful they were in the upper and lower seas, by which Italy is encompassed like an island, the names of these seas is a proof; the one of which the Italian nations have called the Etruscan sea, by the name of the people; the other, the Hadriatic, from Hadria, was a an Etruscans' colony. The Greeks call these seas the Tyrrhenian and Hadriatic. This people inhabited the country extending to both seas in twelve cities, colonies equal in number to the mother cities having been sent, first on this side the Apennines towards the lower sea, afterwards to the other side of the Apennines; who obtained possession of all the district beyond the Po, even as far as the Alps - except the corner of the Veneti, who dwell round the extreme point of the Hadriatic sea. The Alpine nations have also this Etruscan origin, more especially the Raetians; whom their very situation has rendered savage, so as to retain nothing of their original, except the accent of their language, and not even that without a corruption.


3) This is from Marcus Junianus Justinus, _Historiarum Philippicarum T. Pompeii Trogi_, XX, V

_His autem Gallis causa in Italiam veniendi sedesque novas quaerendi intestina discordia et adsiduae domi dissensiones fuere, quarum taedio cum in Italiam venissent, sedibus Tuscos expulerunt et Mediolanum, Comum, Brixiam, Veronam, Bergomum, Tridentum, Vincentiam condiderunt. Tusci quoque duce Raeto avitis sedibus amissis Alpes occupavere et ex nomine ducis gentem Raetorum condiderunt._ 

The Etruscans also when They were driven out from their old settlements, betook themselves, under a leader (dux) named Rhaetus towards the Alps, where they founded the nation of Rhaetia, so named after their leader.

----------


## Nobody1

> I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps - 
> this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old - 
> was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think - 
> a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -


have you even understood the source?
the source [Dr. Rudolf Carl Virchow - Charite, Berlin] does not claim the ancient-Ligurians to be descendent from the Lapps, its states that the ancient-Ligurians and the Lapps are of a broader common stock of peoples that once occupied a broader area in Europe. Dr. Virchow than continues and lists all the craniological similarities that are exclusive to Lapps and ancient-Ligurians.

*Roberto Bosi* - The Lapps (1977)
_Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain....__The mandible of the Lapps is always small, the bone/formation unemphasized and the chin of a receding pattern not exactly repeated in any other human group - with the very exception of these almost entirely extinct Ligurians._

I doubt you ever even read Virchow;

The Ligurians were later absorbed into/by an Indo-European [*Ambronen*] people; 

Which is attested: 

*Archaeologically* [Urnfield] - 

*Linguistically* [Prof. Altheim - Prof. Whatmough] - 

*Historically* [Polybius] ...._for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin._

and _Anthropologically_:

*Anthropological Society of London* - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
_when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans._

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## Nobody1

@ binx

This is correct, _Livius_ records that the expelled _Etruscan_ from the Po Valley became the _Raeti_; 
But a closer look is needed;

_Titus Livius_,
records that the Celtic migrations occurred (beginning) in the times of _Tarquinius Priscus_ (~600 BC), and were started by the adventurous migrations of the two Celtic brothers _Bellovesus_ & _Segovesus_; 

*Segovesus* crossed the Rhine and settled the _Hercynian Forest_ 
*Bellovesus* crossed the Alps and settled the _Po Valley_ - _expelling the Etrsucans_

_Titus Livius_ continues the Celtic migrations into several waves with _
Bellovesus_ being the first wave;

However this migration and the legend of the two _celtic brothers Bellovesus and Segovesus_ is a *fable* and Archaeologically *not* attested;

The _Golasecca culture_ remained consistant [no break] and the _Etruscans_ remained in the Po Valley until the fall of *Melpum* (north) and *Felsina* (south);

*Plinius* - [III / 125] Nat. Hist. - quoting C. Nepos
_item Melpum opulentia praecipuum, quod ab Insubribus et Bois et Senonibus deletum eo die, quo Camillus Veios ceperit, Nepos Cornelius tradidit_

The fall of *Melpum* is put with the conquest of *Veii* by _Marcus Furius Camillus_ ~396 BC; 

So if the _Etruscan_ of the Po Valley have had an influence on the _Raeti_ than it must be ~390 BC with the def. expulsion of the _Etruscan_ from the Po valley;

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## MOESAN

> I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps - 
> this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old - 
> was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think - 
> a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -


I know this post is not very centered on the subject of this thread, only an aside look :
I correct myself : Y-N is heavy enough among Saami but they have plenty of of Y-I1a too - I think Y-I1 came partly through South partly from South-East (Finland) when Y-N came only through South-East (Finland)

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## Nobody1

The _Tropaeum Alpium_ records all the known Alpine tribes of the Augustan reign;




Most of those tribes are recorded by _Classical_ Historians with an ethnical/tribal description;
Most notably by *Pliny* and *Strabo*;


Most of the Alpine *Raetic* tribes had adopted the _Etruscan alphabet_ and hundreds of inscriptions are documented;

Raetic _Bronze-horse_ with inscription: _Pirikanisnu_ / Dercolo, Trentino - 450 BC


*Raetic* language is connected to the _Tyrsenian_ and East Medit. _Lemnian_

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## Sile

> The _Tropaeum Alpium_ records all the known Alpine tribes of the Augustan reign;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of those tribes are recorded by _Classical_ Historians with an ethnical/tribal description;
> Most notably by *Pliny* and *Strabo*;
> 
> 
> ...


The 45 tribes of the raeti where not all raeti, strabo states the Brevni and Genavnes are Illyrian.
The the camvnni and Trvpilini along with the not listed Stoeni are the Euganei people who occupied all of veneto and friuli, before they where thrown out by the Veneti and carni tribes.
*According to Pliny the Elder the Stoni people from Trentino were of the same stock as the Euganei.* *Cato the Elder, in the lost book of Origines, counted among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia and the Camunni of Val Camonica.[2]*
*According to Livy they were defeated by the Adriatic Veneti and the Trojans. Their descendants settled west of the Athesis (Adige) river, around the lakes Sebinus, Edrus, and Benacus, where they occupied 34 towns, which were admitted by Augustus to the rights of Latin cities.*


IIRC the etruscan is a non indo-european language and raeti is a indo-european language like Venetic, how are they similar?
Where does it raeti say it was actually was an etruscan language?, the raeti language is a semetic language coming from north caucasus area, did the etruscans come to italy via the alps.

http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/Tot...ner_Raetic.pdf

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## Nobody1

> The 45 tribes of the raeti where not all raeti


Do you mean the 45* Alpine* tribes were not all Raeti?
Thats true and Strabo and Pliny describe them the best and precise;




> IIRC the etruscan is a non indo-european language and raeti is a indo-european language like Venetic, how are they similar?
> Where does it raeti say it was actually was an etruscan language?, the raeti language is a semetic language coming from north caucasus area, did the etruscans come to italy via the alps.


Eichner (2012) - Univeristy Vienna [_German_]
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2882%29jlr...%289-32%29.pdf

J. Whatmough - _Harvard Studies in Classical Philology Vol. 47_
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21102545422911

Elżbieta Mańczak-Wohlfeld -
http://books.google.de/books?id=nP4e...raetic&f=false

Maybe it was a Semitic language; 
either way not Indo-European;


*Raetic* Archaeology: TIROLER LANDESMUSEUM
http://www.landesmuseum.at/pdf_frei_..._0211-0233.pdf

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## Sile

> Do you mean the 45* Alpine* tribes were not all Raeti?
> Thats true and Strabo and Pliny describe them the best and precise;



I am unsure as the euganei are also described as liguri 

the illyrians where there, some call them Nori (pannonian-illyrians), venetics where there, ladins also ( basically raeti that took the latin language and stuck with it over time) , vindelici there as well. 

Clearly by the time the romans invaded the raeti where heavily celtinized/gallic

further proof from 2012 paper that by 300BC the venetics where celtinized in language
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf

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## Nobody1

> I am unsure as the euganei are also described as liguri 
> 
> the illyrians where there, some call them Nori (pannonian-illyrians), venetics where there, ladins also ( basically raeti that took the latin language and stuck with it over time) , vindelici there as well. 
> 
> Clearly by the time the romans invaded the raeti where heavily celtinized/gallic
> 
> further proof from 2012 paper that by 300BC the venetics where celtinized in language
> http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf


Great link;
But i wouldnt associate the *Veneti* with the *Raeti* to begin with;
The *Veneti* are proper wholly Indo-Europeans whereas the *Raeti* was a confederation of numerous tribes;
As you pointed out the _Euganei_ were considered *Liguri* and _Camunic_ is still not classified as a language;

*Polybius* - Book II
_The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language._ 

from your source: _J. Gvozdanovic_ - [Uni. Heidelberg]
Within Indo-European, Venetic is predominantly grouped with the western languages, but details still remain to be clarified (cf. also Untermann 1980). Venetic was a _centum_ language (cf. Venetic ke < IE _*k'e_ 'and', and IE _*kwe_ > Venetic _-­kve_ 'and'). 
As a prominent and relatively specific phonological feature, there was an _a-_reflex of IE laryngeals between consonants with parallels in Italic and Celtic, e.g. Venetic _vha.g.sto_ 'made (an offering)', Latin _facit_, Oscan _fakiiad_ from zero-grade of _*dheh1_ with _-­k-_ extension (IE _*dhh1-k-­_) (cf. Wallace 2008: 126).
In morphology, Venetic probably shared with Latin and Celtic the _ŏ-_stem genitive singular ending _­-ī_ (e.g. _keutini_ 'of Keutinos').
---

Not sure whether its Italic or Keltic that _Venetic_ shares greater similarities 
-Since Italic and Keltic share a common root themselves
Venetic was Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic and has also been described 
as proto-Slavic [_Matej Bor_]; 

*Ventic* inscription - Vicenza - 6th-4th cen. BC

.o.s..t..s. katus.ia.i.io.s. tona.s.to. a.tra.e..s. te.r.mon.io.s te.i.vo.s.
_Osts Katusiaios donasto atraes termonios deivos_

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## Sile

> Great link;
> But i wouldnt associate the *Veneti* with the *Raeti* to begin with;
> The *Veneti* are proper wholly Indo-Europeans whereas the *Raeti* was a confederation of numerous tribes;
> As you pointed out the _Euganei_ were considered *Liguri* and _Camunic_ is still not classified as a language;
> 
> *Polybius* - Book II
> _The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language._


I was trying to note that the previous link ( raeti language) states raeti and venetic where very similar




> From your source: _Gozdanovic_ [Uni. Heidelberg]
> Within Indo-European, Venetic is predominantly grouped with the western languages, but details still remain to be clarified (cf. also Untermann 1980). Venetic was a _centum_ language (cf. Venetic ke < IE _*k'e_ 'and', and IE _*kwe_ > Venetic _-­kve_ 'and'). 
> As a prominent and relatively specific phonological feature, there was an _a-_reflex of IE laryngeals between consonants with parallels in Italic and Celtic, e.g. Venetic _vha.g.sto_ 'made (an offering)', Latin _facit_, Oscan _fakiiad_ from zero-grade of _*dheh1_ with _-­k-_ extension (IE _*dhh1-k-­_) (cf. Wallace 2008: 126).
> In morphology, Venetic probably shared with Latin and Celtic the _ŏ-_stem genitive singular ending _­-ī_ (e.g. _keutini_ 'of Keutinos').
> ---
> 
> Not sure whether its Italic or Keltic that _Venetic_ shares greater similarities 
> -Since Italic and Keltic share a common root themselves
> Venetic was Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic and has also been described 
> ...


What italic was there if the etruscan was not italic and non indo-european, plus of the 360 venetic written finds, 6 are in western Slovenia, 21 in austria as far as innsbruck and the rest only in modern veneto, friuli and south tyrol/trentino areas. Clearly the ancient script was non celtic-italic but became celtic-italic by about 300BC ( note: the veneti went under Rome as an ally ( no wars ) from 189BC ) even though Veneti troops fought alongside Romans against Hannibal.

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## Nobody1

> I was trying to note that the previous link ( raeti language) states raeti and venetic where very similar


How is that even possible?
Raetic is non-Indo-European and Venetic is Indo-European;

Your second study perfectly explains Venetic;
*J. Gvozdanovic* - [Uni. Heidelberg]
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf

As for your first study; 
Im not sure how credible [Brunner-Toth] linking Raetic to Semitic even is;
Apparently most of Brunner-Toths adventurous linguistics has been rejected;
Here Brunner-Toth is linking _Hungarian_ and _Finno-Ugric_ to *Sumerian*
http://www.mathematical-semiotics.co...and%20FU-U.pdf


Either way Raetic is non-Indo-European (_whether Tyrsenian, Semitic or Isolated_) so no link with the Indo-European Venetic;




> What italic was there if the etruscan was not italic and non indo-european, plus of the 360 venetic written finds, 6 are in western Slovenia, 21 in austria as far as innsbruck and the rest only in modern veneto, friuli and south tyrol/trentino areas. Clearly the ancient script was non celtic-italic but became celtic-italic by about 300BC ( note: the veneti went under Rome as an ally ( no wars ) from 189BC ) even though Veneti troops fought alongside Romans against Hannibal.


What Etruscans are you refferring to?

*Livy* recorded the _Euganei_ in the Area before the _Veneti_ pushed them out;
*Polybius* records the _Veneti_ to be ancient inhabitants of that region;

_Venetic_ is Indo-European but *not* of the Italic branch / pos. akin to; 
Once again the study from _J. Gvozdanovic_ perfectly explains that;

_J. Gvozdanovic_ -
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf
Of these, only the Northern Adriatic Veneti left a set of mainly votive and funerary texts, classified by Lejeune (1974: 21) with some approximation into periods called *Archaic* (550–475 BC), *Ancient* (475–300 BC), *Recent* (300–150 BC), and *Veneto-Latin* (150–100 BC)./
Discussions about the linguistic classification of Venetic among the western Indo-European languages gear towards two major solutions: either treating Venetic as a relatively archaic Indo-European language with some similarities, but not unequivocally attributable to any other western Indo-European group (cf. especially Krahe 1950 and Polomé 1966), or assuming a close connection with Italic (especially Beeler 1949, or Euler 1993, who considers Venetic to be closely connected with Italic, but with archaic morphological traits)
---. 

Yes the Veneti were always allys of Rome;

*Polybius* - Book II [~390 BC / Allia - Sack of Rome]
_Not long afterwards they defeated the Romans and their allies in a pitched battle, and pursuing the fugitives, occupied, three days after the battle, the whole of Rome with the exception of the Capitol, but being diverted by an invasion of their own country by the Veneti, they made on this occasion a treaty with the Romans, and evacuating the city, returned home._

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## Sile

> How is that even possible?
> Raetic is non-Indo-European and Venetic is Indo-European;
> 
> Your second study perfectly explains Venetic;
> *J. Gvozdanovic* - [Uni. Heidelberg]
> http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf
> 
> As for your first study; 
> Im not sure how credible [Brunner-Toth] linking Raetic to Semitic even is;
> ...


ok

I thought I read raeti was indo-european since it was next to lepontic and venetic

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## Nobody1

> ok
> 
> I thought I read raeti was indo-european since it was next to lepontic and venetic


No problem;

Dont know if you have read about this already, but thats also a pretty good study on ancient _Venetic_

*Prof. Wallace -* (2008)
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf

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## Sile

> No problem;
> 
> Dont know if you have read about this already, but thats also a pretty good study on ancient _Venetic_
> 
> *Prof. Wallace -* (2008)
> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf


your above have been replaced by this 2012 paper
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf






In regards to some words in your paper:

*Tola(e)r* is still used in venetian today, but it means "too take", it is broken down further to
*Tor* = Take as in take it if you like or
*Tol* = I want you to take it

the ego for I is interesting , it is represented in surnames from mainland Veneto ie Martinego etc, while Igo endings are true Venetian like Mocenigo , Barbarigo etc

The *Dei* is *Di* in venetian and it means *day*.
like Lunadi =......... luna=moon,........... di=day....moonday, is Monday
Italian say Giorno, go figure???, Giorno for venetians is between noon and evening
so
Notte = night
Notorada = day light
mattina = Morning
Mexodi = mid day
Giorno = early afternoon
Mexogiorno = mid afternoon
Sera = evening

Mego , is* I have* and Me ga is also used.
me = me

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## Nobody1

Definitely;

But i wouldnt say that _Guozdanovic_ replaced_ Wallace_;
Both of them are def. good studies on ancient-_Venetic_;

*Guozdanovic -*
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf
*Wallace -*
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf


*Venetic* alphabet(variants) and Inscription distribution;


Not sure from what year the map is; 
maybe even more inscriptions have been discovered by now;


Funerary stele / Warrior on Horseback - Padova 

-.e.nogene.i.e./neϑiio.i.e.p.pe/ϑtari.s.a.l.ϑa/reniio.i. 
-_enogenei enetioi eppetaris albarenioi_

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## Sile

> Definitely;
> 
> But i wouldnt say that _Guozdanovic_ replaced_ Wallace_;
> Both of them are def. good studies on ancient-_Venetic_;
> 
> *Guozdanovic -*
> http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr...2833-46%29.pdf
> *Wallace -*
> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf
> ...


Map must be not before 500BC as cennomani and carni are on it

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