# General Discussion > Opinions >  A pagan nation with pretentious manners

## Tonysoong

The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.

In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself. 

But unlike the Americans and the Europeans who developed their humanistic ring in their Christian culture(s), the Japanese as a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners. In the meantime, they view other oriental nations and cultures as inferior. That's why the Japanese tend to treat other oriental nations as barbarians in a barbaric manner while in the meanwhile behaving themselves in front of westerners in a humble and elaborated civilised manner.

Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core. 

This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.

Thanks

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## Iron Chef

I moved your thread here as it seems a more appropriate place for such discussions. Btw, to quote yourself from another thread you recently started:

"What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility..."

Might want to be careful you aren't accused of doing the same...

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## Tim33

I fail to see how immitation means something bad.

If something is good then copy yes???

Some might say the chinese way and other oriental ways of doing things are not so good. your inability to move on and put the past behind you. The rich nations generally are these western cultures so what is wrong with being like them. Japan is a reasonably wealthy country also after doing things more the western way.

As for splitting with your past its really the only way to move on is it not??

As for western nations we to have split from our past as you call it. Its Evolution of society.

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## kirei_na_me

> Btw, to quote yourself from another thread you recently started: "What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility..." Might want to be careful you aren't accused of doing the same...


Exactly...

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## Doc

Can't we all just get along? I guess not. :Sad: 

Doc :Ramen:  :Joyful:

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## Tim33

> Can't we all just get along?


Agreed. Im sick to death of all this Chinese/Japanese bickering.

Would be nice to see people just move on.

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## budd

some might say that for the racial situation in this country as well
look like op just registered to start stuff though

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## RockLee

The Chinese had several Foreign architects come over to build their new infrastructure in Beijing, mainly because they want to get more westernlike...soon there will be the olympics in 2008...And you tell me the Japanese are copycats ??? I think you should reconsider your opinion my friend ! :)

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## Ikyoto

Tonysoong - can you show me one period of time in which any nation is perfect? Show me one span of time in which any nation can claim to be without any fault.

You cannot.

In your eyes, what should be done to Japan for not being perfect in your eyes? Or for that matter any nation?

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## miu

I wrote more on this but my pc crashed and naturally I lost everything, so here's a concised version:

Imitation is one of the most basic thing in the human nature - we learn things through imitation. I wouldn't say, however,
that the Japanese only imitate things. They adopt bits and pieces elsewhere just like any other culture. I could give you
examples of borrowing in the Chinese culture as well but I don't think you're interested in that. 

As for the claim that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation', I think it's not valid. I don't see how others view this but I think one
of the key features in the Japanese culture is the 'uchi-soto' concept. It might be applied to the 
study of non-japanese cultural adoption as well - on the surface something can seem familiar and like a copy but when you dig deeper it has
more Japanese traits than similarities to the original model. If you think about politics, LDP and the way it works, for example,
one could say it's rather different from the American model... As for things such as tea and the tea ceremony, Chanoyu and Chad&ocirc; as a whole
both feature distinctively Japanese traits - such as raku ceramics and the ideology for using that particular style. 

As for the etnocentric approach, it could be traced back to the Nation State as well as the traditional ie concept
in the Japanese family. Similar way of thinking can be seen in the Chinese clan system, so if you're failiar with it,
I think it should not be difficult to understand why the Japanese work as a whole and not as individuals. I'm not trying
to say that one fact or another justifies anything, I just want to point out that there's always a cause and an effect
so nothing ever happens out of the blue and without a reason. As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do *you* view Africa?

If all imitation is prohibited, we wouldn't have rich culture. There's a difference between imitation and adoption.

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## Tonysoong

Pity that only my Japanese friend Iron Chef truly understands my post in a very misunderstanging way and that he takes offense. Any way it shows that communication between Chinese and Japanese is easier than that in other contexts. It's nothing strange of course---we are both oriental nations.

I feel wronged with Iron Chef suspecting me of something that i suspect some other posters of on this forum --- fanning hostility. But no, I am not. Instead, i have always been trying to help mitigate that.

Can I or you name any nation with no fault? No, definitely no. The Chinese as I know have serious faults. Realising your own fault is the beginning of tolerance and repentance.

And as for Japanese, copying, as i have said, is good in itself. Copying the west has brought about economic prosperity in the industrial and the post-industrial eras as well as copying classic Chinese culture has contributed much to their iINTERNAL social harmoney.

But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.

This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance

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## Tim33

> This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance


Back to the war again is it???

I thought you were finally moving on to another topic for a change.
Does everything have to lead back to the Japanese not realising the past.

As i stated before, immitation is not a bad thing, they are merely trying to improve themselves and move on. True maybe they are doing it a little to fast but that is better then not doing it at all.




> As for regarding other Asian nations as inferior, I doubt
> that similar approaches wouldn't ve present elsewhere as well - how do people in general view Africa? How do you view Africa?


Now you mention that i think i would consider them as inferior, i know this make me sounds like an *** but i do. Lack of technology, evolved society, education.

Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?

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## Void

> But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.
> 
> This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance


Sorry, but i think your conclusion is wrong. What they didn`t "digest" is their own cultural and historic inheritance (though, digest is not a proper word). In fact, you can`t cut off your past. It`s your culture, your roots, national Self, if you want, it`s the history you must learn from. And when it is deeply suppressed with adopted bits and pieces (even if they benefit the nation), what do you think will happen after while? I think it will come out (or even burst out), and most of the times in an agly form of nationalistic pride (or rather arrogance)

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## lexico

> But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it. The aftermath is a civilisation devoid of a humanistic core, biased brutality in disguise of humble manners.
> 
> This, I think, helps explain why the Japanese lack an ethic for repentance.





> Sorry, but i think your conclusion is wrong. What they didn`t "digest" is their own cultural and historic inheritance (though, digest is not a proper word). In fact, you can`t cut off your past. It`s your culture, your roots, national Self, if you want, it`s the history you must learn from. And when it is deeply suppressed with adopted bits and pieces (even if they benefit the nation), what do you think will happen after while? I think it will come out (or even burst out), and most of the times in an agly form of nationalistic pride (or rather arrogagance).


I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times, and in this thread, you can also see the Emperor. the press, and the people are all thinking differently. If there was any lack in social progress or awareness as in healthy self-awareness, even the leaders themselves have been swayed by the trends of the times. But as both of you seem to suggest, Not knowing one's past is a great disadvantage. Whatever that may turn out to be. Knowledge is definitely liberating instead of making for more bigotry or arrogance, which only befits an ignorant, savage culture.

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## Iron Chef

"Pity that only my Japanese friend Iron Chef truly understands my post in a very misunderstanging way and that he takes offense."

"I feel wronged with Iron Chef suspecting me of something that i suspect some other posters of on this forum --- fanning hostility."

"But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying"

LOL, dude... first of all, all I did was move your thread to the APPROPRIATE forum for discussion. It has not in any way shape or form been altered or edited for content. So what exactly is the problem where you feel the need to make statements like those above? If you feel wronged as a result of me doing my job then that's on you. I suggest you click on the link I have below in my sig re: the forum rules to familiarize yourself with the site a bit more.

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## Tim33

Maybe deep down he thought what he doing was wrong and so when you moved it he assumed that was the reason.

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## Void

Tim33, why we just don`t let Tonysoong explain for himself what he thought (no matter how deep)

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## Tonysoong

We are not being reasonable enough not to be so constantly derailed. You see, I posted a thread and a friend moved it, and dozens more friends have read it, but then what do we see happening here?

I was just intending to share some of my philosophical thinking and i knew there must be people not interested in it just as there are people interested. If you are interested, just follow this thread. If uninterested, move on to other threads or start your own. Ok?

This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?

Thanks

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## Doc

Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual). 

Doc :Ramen:  :Joyful:

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## Tonysoong

> The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.
> 
> In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself. 
> 
> But unlike the Americans and the Europeans who developed their humanistic ring in their Christian culture(s), the Japanese as a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners. In the meantime, they view other oriental nations and cultures as inferior. That's why the Japanese tend to treat other oriental nations as barbarians in a barbaric manner while in the meanwhile behaving themselves in front of westerners in a humble and elaborated civilised manner.
> 
> Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core. 
> 
> This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.
> ...


What do you have on ur mind now? My friends?

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## Tonysoong

> Look societies and cultures copy off of each other all the time. It's not because they want to forget their past or imitate others, it's because people choose to have a better living when it's made avaiable to them. It's a part of human nature. People copy off each other all the time to make their lives better, that in no way takes away their individuality. They're still unique and individual in their own right still with knowledge of their own past. It's just that they change certain apparences, situations, concepts, etc to make their life better. No matter how much copying a society or culture does from others, they still stay true to their roots (well for the most part they do depending on the individual). 
> 
> Doc


The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?

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## miu

> I get the strange feeling that you two are referring to the same phenemenon that nobody truly understands. Japan as any other country is not uniform, as has been pointed out many times


Exactly - in Japan, the idea of Japan and its people as an entity did not really exist before the Nation State. Before that the ordinary people had little or no idea who the emperor was. It's true that Japan has many invented traditions, such as the kimono for example, but I suppose you could speculate this has all been brought about along the Nation State. Invented traditions and concepts were introduced in order to unify a very heterogenous people. This still doesn't mean that Japan is completely without any 'serious' tradition. 




> Therefore maybe the statement by Tonysoong about the Japanese seeing the other asian countries as inferior should be altered to include other nations and there views about other cultures?


Exactly. I very much doubt that many Americans or Europeans consider Thailand, for example, to have an equal status with their country. 




> But, perhaps as Iron Chef has noticed, there is a serious problem behind the Japanese copying --- They have imitated so much both from classic China and the modern west (too much) without digesting it.


You might want to revise what you wrote. I don't think that you can claim that for example the kanji still exist in a mere copied state in the Japanese writing system. Chinese characters work perfectly with Chinese - they work less perfectly with Japanese as it is an agglutinating language. They first tried to make it fit, found out it doesn't work quite right and changed the system to suit Japanese better. It is still quite evident that kanji derives from hanzi but even a Chinese speaker would have to study kanji before being able to use them. This, I think, Would not be the case if the kanji were only a copy of something. A copy means something identical, doesn't it?

Besides, classical Chinese culture itself has borrowed elements in it. For example in stage arts, the Jin dynasty zaju was brought about by the Jurcen people from Manchuria - they were not Han Chinese. And still, the Jin dynasty was a great era for stage arts in China. As for other examples, I think you would be quite capable of distinguishing Japanese ukiyo-e from Chinese art. As for having similar style, isn't it the same to claim that all impressionists copied one person only because they have a similar style? Why do we distinguish different impressionists from one another if they all 'copy' something? Because they are able to differentiate themselves even while executing a similar style.

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## Tonysoong

I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core

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## kirei_na_me

> This is a forum --- for exchange of views and debates --- not for Karade or boxing?





> I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, _dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core_


Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above? 

Hmmm...

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## Doc

> The question is "for better or for worse as a whole--- or for better and for worse in different aspects". Right?


For lack of a better term yes. Take a look at Bulgaria for example. Their culture centers around that of their ancestors and western ideas for the past ten years. However, there is a gap in history textbooks spanning almost over fifty years. Do you know why? It's because the society as a whole feels that it's best to forget about the Nazi rule and then Communist rule in their country. Children are all about western ideals and have no knowledge of those years of hell in the past for their parents and grandparents. Yet despite all that they stay true those their knowledge of their ancestors and past culture. It all depends on how societies and cultures see fit on intergrating new ideals western or not.

Doc :Ramen:  :Joyful:

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## Tonysoong

> I mean no derogation of copying. I am try to, with ur consent and assistance, dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core


Me? Instigator? How?

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## miu

If you're looking for faults in the Japanese society, you should atleast give some valid proof for your claims. I can think of flaws in the Japanese society but what I don't do is to singulate Japan as the only nation that does this. Discrimination, war crimes - we can find these elsewhere as well. In China, for example. You wrote that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation' and I gave some _evidence_ which shows that borrowed elements in the japanese culture are not mere copies. If you want to examine 'the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core' (and I assume you mean Japan), give some valid proof for your claims?

You might also want to consider differentiating your own, possibly emotional, idea of Japan from the concept of copying. Of course people are going to assume you mean copying is something negative if say "Japan copies other nations" and surround it with negative words and sentences.  :Sou ka:

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## Tonysoong

> Ok, you make that comment about the forum's purpose being for exchange of views and debates, not for karate and boxing, but then you make some comment like the one in bold italics above? 
> 
> Hmmm...


 I am derailing you?

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## bossel

> dig into the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core


Humanism (from M-W):
1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason

Could you please be a bit more specific about what exactly is missing in Japanese culture which is so much more present in other cultures?

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## Tonysoong

[QUOTE=miu]If you're looking for faults in the Japanese society, you should atleast give some valid proof for your claims. I can think of flaws in the Japanese society but what I don't do is to singulate Japan as the only nation that does this. Discrimination, war crimes - we can find these elsewhere as well. In China, for example. You wrote that 'the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation' and I gave some _evidence_ which shows that borrowed elements in the japanese culture are not mere copies. If you want to examine 'the deformed civilisation which is devoid of its humanistic core' (and I assume you mean Japan), give some valid proof for your claims?


You may well defend Japan juat as I have many positive impressions about this island country --- their diligence, effeciency, and rigidity. But....

Their war atrocities were not just killing. It was killing of civilians. It was chemical weapon tests on living humans who they called MARUDA. Their military fought in utter ignorance of established international law.

Their so-called unconditional surrender was just that without repentance. 

Any nation has the right to shuffle off certain parts of their history for their own sake, but that does not mean they can be exempt from their moral responsibilities to other nations.

Any civilisation has its defects and faults, but if a civilisation refrains from facing its own defects and faults, we need to help dig into it, urging its members to take due responsibilities.

In China, for example, it is well accepted that the CCP owes justice to those killed in the 1989 pro-democratic movement.

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## Tonysoong

> Humanism (from M-W):
> 1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
> 2 : HUMANITARIANISM
> 3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason
> 
> Could you please be a bit more specific about what exactly is missing in Japanese culture which is so much more present in other cultures?




Nazi Germany was by no means humanistic, but today's Germany is humanistically responsible with its hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness from its victmised European nations.

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## miu

> Their war atrocities were not just killing. It was killing of civilians. It was chemical weapon tests on living humans who they called MARUDA. Their military fought in utter ignorance of established international law.


I am quite aware of the fact that Japan committed war crimes - they not only killed civilians they tortured them. You might also consider Hiroshima and the Americans' idea of it as 'testing'. 

It's a very different thing to present a claim about war crimes than to disguise it as another claim. You are either unable to differentiate the two or saying that Japan imitated Western countries in cruelty. I doubt that you meant the latter, though. People might be fed up with the discussion about the relationship between China and Japan as well as war crimes, so I think it would be only fair to start a discussion on war crimes with an appropriate title and not call it a discussion about copying other nations. Cultural and other borrowings affect so many other fields besides politics, so you're bound to be told you're misusing a topic.

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## Tonysoong

> I am quite aware of the fact that Japan committed war crimes - they not only killed civilians they tortured them. You might also consider Hiroshima and the Americans' idea of it as 'testing'. 
> 
> It's a very different thing to present a claim about war crimes than to disguise it as another claim. You are either unable to differentiate the two or saying that Japan imitated Western countries in cruelty. I doubt that you meant the latter, though. People might be fed up with the discussion about the relationship between China and Japan as well as war crimes, so I think it would be only fair to start a discussion on war crimes with an appropriate title and not call it a discussion about copying other nations. Cultural and other borrowings affect so many other fields besides politics, so you're bound to be told you're misusing a topic.


Perhaps you will be in a better position to understand relevance between a hearty epentance for war atrocities and a humanistic core of a civilisation, the latter of which can hardly be obtained through mere copying, only when one day you live in a situation lacking either of the two.

I didn't start this thread expecting everyone to enjoy it. Any way it is not about sex or travelling, it is about some nations being victmised by one other nation in the era of modern civilisation. And even though we are reasonable enough to have realised that the best way out of all this agony is a hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness, yet both are way off. We need to talk about it. Most of us, i believe, are not here to fight. So you, as an outsider, don't in the least need to worry or to get fed up. And there are so many other threads for you to follow and have fun.

BTW, It's obvious that many Europeans and Americans don't seem to understand the agony of us Chinese and Koreans with Japan's WW2 atrocities. So when you start a respective thread, hoping to communicate with Japanese friends, some Europeans and Americans would surround you with bitter remarks, with our Japanese friends standing aloof watching you trapped and giggling.

Be liberal minded and you will enjoy this nice forum.

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## Tim33

You are getting onto another topic now and back to the war. Can you not argue about anything else.

Is everything the Japanese do bad and wrong because of the war???

Was this just another topic for you to bring up another war thread. Is this as far as your mind can go??

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## kirei_na_me

> BTW, It's obvious that many Europeans and Americans don't seem to understand the agony of us Chinese and Koreans with Japan's WW2 atrocities. So when you start a respective thread, hoping to communicate with Japanese friends, some Europeans and Americans would surround you with bitter remarks, with our Japanese friends standing aloof watching you trapped and giggling.
> 
> Be liberal minded and you will enjoy this nice forum.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...328#post203328

I hope no one interprets this as spam.

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## Tonysoong

> You are getting onto another topic now and back to the war. Can you not argue about anything else.
> 
> Is everything the Japanese do bad and wrong because of the war???
> 
> Was this just another topic for you to bring up another war thread. Is this as far as your mind can go??



Ok, I will try, bur perhaps later, my friend, as it's already early morning here in China, and in Japan too.

Oh, I should say GOOD DAY before my departure.

Good day, all my dear friends

Thanks

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## Duo

Herrrre we gooooooooo, another Japan has faults thread, they did atrocities they dont accept them etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etccccccc........ we all know that the Japanese don't have a clear concience and are intransigent in accepting their ghost from the past. Howeverrrrr, it seems to me that China also has a few ghosts of its own, if you guys recongize the mistakes of Japan, why did you repeat them ?

An example, Tibet, and this is in modern history, the cultural revolution, the barefoot doctors; every country has it's own s**t that stinks up from the sewer from time to time, the problem is to recognize that you can't try to give me moral judgment on Japan without considering your legacy. It would be like well, like a Belgian accusing a French person of the negative effects of the colonlization of Africa.

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## miu

I don't claim to have any first-hand experience of WW2 since I'm too young for that - how about you? How about the post-2WW generations of Japanese people? As a Chinese person you are probably aware that China has a history of jailing people for saying the wrong things and they government is still continuing this. The things that happen to those people are probably not something you would want to go through yourself. And this is only one thing in addition to what Duo alreayd pointed out. Yet, I cannot judge all Chinese people as thoroughly evil and incapable of establishing civilized culture. How can I judge millions of people that have absolutely no say in what the government does? What I can do is see what the government and people
in power do but I still have to be aware that 'the Chinese' does not mean 'the people in power', it for the most part means people who have absolutely nothing to do with what the officials issue. 

If you think about 2WW and Germany, for example, there are reasons why the Nazis were able to take power into their hands and one of the reasons was to use the plight of the German people. They employed a whole nation to help Germany prepare to take over the world: do you seriously think they told everyone "Will you join this party and help us destroy thousands of innocent people?". I hope you get my point. 

Moreover, if you consider the situation in effect in Japan after 2WW, was it not the case that the USA was pretty much telling the Japanese what to do and remodeling their legal system - how would it have looked if the Japanese would have gotten friendly with communist China? It may also be partly the case that the USA was afraid of Japan turning into a communist state, so and this would only elaborate the point why admitting anything to a communist state such as China would be very difficult. The situation has changed now, but after having such a long tradition in not admititng anything, is it ever easy to turn around? When you accuse other people of not being able to see the viewpoint of others, you might also consider are you doing the same.

Also, when you talk about humanism, humanitarianism and culture, it is slightly off-topic to claim that a certain culture is thoroughly rotten by examining one aspect or point in the lifespan of the culture or a nation. I'm not here to fight with anyone, I just wanted to point out--like Tim33 said-- that if you want to talk about the Second World War, don't give us a topic about a culture copying other nations and title your topic more appropriately.

If I may quote you, you said 'Anyhow, the Japanese have never gone beyond imitation. And the Japanese civilisation can be regarded as a civilisation of imitations which is devoid of its humanistic core. 

This core can only be achieved through digestion of what they have imitated, either oriental or western, rather than through mere imitation.' This, in my oppinion, would refer to culture and humanities such as literature and arts for example, rather than Japan's war crimes during the Second World War.

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## bossel

> Nazi Germany was by no means humanistic, but today's Germany is humanistically responsible with its hearty repentance endorsed with forgiveness from its victmised European nations.


I can't really follow your interpretation of humanistic, perhaps humane would fit better. 

& in that regard I can definitely say that Japanese are not really worse than other nations. All humans are pretty similar in such characteristics. The Japanese government doesn't own up to its historical responsibilities, but blaming all Japanese (as _the_ society/civilisation) for that & denying them inherent human capabilities goes a bit far. You should weigh your words a bit better, or give better definitions of what you actually mean.

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## alexriversan

yesterday, i have seen on tv, every 45 minutes, one irish person commits suicide.

and, ireland was "the" land were christianity was introduced, around the year 400 CE.

if that's not deformed.

now, 6 million irish people, 1 suicide every 45 minutes.
the numbers for japan?

sorry for being rude, christianity does not provide answers to our time.

probably, it is not affecting the thread, but the author introduced the western concepts "humanity" "pagan" "christianity"

hence, it is required to understand what christianity is, and how christianity has affected the environment where it was applied.

if this is denied, it would be equal to: "christianity shall be applied as an obligatory mystery, which does not need to be understood". indeed, such formulations were common, not so long ago.

---------------

and, not too much off-topic: this is an imitation of what? (i mean the sega case design)

http://uk.geocities.com/irlalx/segams2/

history is so disgusting...

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## miu

Hm... Maybe you could explain it with pressure from other nations rather than Christianity? If you think about Germany, it's surrounded by other countries demanding it to come clean with its war crimes... Not quite the case with Japan, maybe...

Besides, don't many of the 'main' religions share similar thought? And Confucianism? Religion can be bent to justify a lot of thing (crusades) and Europe has been pretty much secularised since the Middle Ages :P Another example of the oddness of Christian values is sending missionaries to other countries: 'good Christians' go to to the heart of darkness (  :Poh:  ) to make it a better place - what right do Christians have to go to another continent (be it Africa or Asia) and judge people who have been living there for thousands of years and impose their own values on them? There is nothing wrong with humanitarian help but cultural imperialism is still a rather questionable concept atleast for me.

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## Bramicus

> Japanese [are] a pagan oriental nation who think of their own past as humble and even shameful, chose to split with its own past and to imitate the westerners.


What then would you say about the Chinese? Would you say that they chose to completely annihilate their own past with the "Cultural Revolution" -- far more than the Japanese did -- and imitate the Soviet Bolsheviks?

My own impression is that both the Chinese and Japanese are now trying to move ahead as best they can, retaining what is good (of what is left) of the past, while trying to adapt the best ideas of the present, to make a good future.

Why all this continual badmouthing of the other's culture? Sure, the militaristic Japanese government and army of 60-70 years ago -- which no longer exist -- committed terrible atrocities in China. But those people are long gone. Why carry all the past animosities into new generations? Will that help either people?

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## kirei_na_me

Bramicus, you said it perfectly. At least, as far as I'm concerned.

Your level-headedness, I appreciate.

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## Pararousia

Hi Tonysoong,
I only come in and check posts every few days, so I found your original post in my thread on rudeness and then saw it continued here. 




> The Japanese are largely an oriental pagan nation who admire civilised nations and would do their best to imitate them, which is nothing bad in itself.
> 
> In ancient times, the Japanese imitated the Chinese though they now have turned their back on the oriental civilisation. In modern times, the Japanese turned to imitate the west and successfully industrialised their country, which is a good thing in itself.


I'm staying out of that whole Chinese/Japanese hostility thing, but I would like to understand what you meant by "pagan nation". Do you mean Japan is pagan compared to China or compared to Europe and the U.S.? Do you mean religiously or in some other sense. 

And if you do mean religiously, then may I ask what religion you hold in order to call Japan pagan. 

Thank you very much in advance.

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## Otosan-no-Conan

You say pagan like it's a bad thing...

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## lexico

Obviously Tony's dealing with his hurt-anger and trying to make some sense of it. I hope this thread is helping him. Words can kill, or words can heal. What will it be*

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## Void

o_O and we are all called 'homo sapiens'... so much for that  :Sou ka:

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## Tonysoong

> Hi Tonysoong,
> I only come in and check posts every few days, so I found your original post in my thread on rudeness and then saw it continued here. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm staying out of that whole Chinese/Japanese hostility thing, but I would like to understand what you meant by "pagan nation". Do you mean Japan is pagan compared to China or compared to Europe and the U.S.? Do you mean religiously or in some other sense. 
> 
> And if you do mean religiously, then may I ask what religion you hold in order to call Japan pagan. 
> 
> Thank you very much in advance.


Do i need to hold any religion other than Christianity just in order to call Japan pagan?? What's your expectation of me to justify your pride?

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## Pararousia

Tony,
I didn't understand your answer, so maybe you didn't understand my question. How do you define pagan? Still curious.

Peace,
P.

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## lexico

Pagan is defined in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate 10th;

"*Pagan*. noun. first used in the 14th century.
etymology of pagan < ME _pagan_ << Late Latin _paganus_ < Latin _paganus_ 'country dweller' << Latin _pagus_ 'country district'; akin to Latin _pangere_ 'to fix.'

1: heathen, especially a follower of a polytheistic religion.
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods: an irreligious and hedonistic person."

"*Polytheism*. noun. first used in 1613.
etymology of polytheism. < French _polytheisme_ << Late Greek _polytheos_ 'polytheistic' < Greek polytheos 'of many gods'
belief or worship of more than one god."

As of Oct. 17, 1992, the Yasukuni shrine has enshrined a total of 2,466,427 spirits according to Koyabu Nobukuni's account in _Kokkato Saishi_, Seidosha, 2004. 

According to these bits of information, a worshipper participating in the Yasukuni rites is polytheistic, and a pagan. To characterize the Japanese nation as a whole in summary fashion may need some qualification. 

Nevertheless a governmental head who visits the shrine in the official capacity (during normal work hours of a public servant) making offerings with taxpayer's monies makes Japan's national policy 'pagan' if we go by the books. 

But everybody's entitled to one's view. It's just that objectivity seems to be what is at risk here.

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