# General Discussion > Opinions >  Why is homo- and bisexuality on the rise in the West?

## Tomenable

If sexual orientation is not influenced by culture and environment, then why is this taking place?:

*1) UK:*

Sexual orientation *(Kinsey scale)* in the British pop. (YouGov 2015, n=1632 adults):

Orientation
Age 18-24 y.o.
Age 25-39 y.o.
Age 40-59 y.o.
Age 60+ y.o.

Strictly straight
46%
58%
78%
88%

Bisexual spectrum
43%
29%
16%
7%

Homosexual
6%
9%
3%
1%

Asexual
1%
1%
1%
1%

Unsure
3%
3%
2%
2%



Sexual orientation *("description")* in the British pop. (YouGov 2015, n=1632 adults):

Orientation
Age 18-24 y.o.
Age 25-39 y.o.
Age 40-59 y.o.
Age 60+ y.o.

Heterosexual
83%
81%
91%
96%

Bisexual
3%
4%
2%
1%

Gay/lesbian
10%
11%
4%
1%

Other
2%
1%
1%
0%

Prefer not to say
2%
3%
3%
2%



"If the right person came along at the right time, do you think it is conceivable that you could have a relationship with a person of the same (gays/lesbians: opposite) sex?" (YouGov 2015, n=1632 adults):

Orientation (Kinsey scale)
Absolutely not
Unlikely, but not impossible
Maybe, if I really liked them
Definitely
Don't know

Strictly straight
69%
21%
4%
1%
4%

Homosexual
(31%)
(20%)
(50%)
(0%)
(0%)

Asexual
0%
88%
0%
0%
12%

Unsure
37%
14%
6%
15%
28%



Source: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...0Sexuality.pdf

*2) US:*

Sexual orientation in the American population (GLAAD 2017 survey, n=2037 adults):

Orientation
Age 18-34 y.o.
Age 35-51 y.o.
Age 52-71 y.o.
Age 72+ y.o.

Heterosexual
84%
91%
94%
98%

Bisexual*
8%
5%
3%
2%

Gay/lesbian
3%
3%
2%
0.5%

Asexual
4%
1%
1%
0.5%

Unsure
1%
0%
0.5%
0%



*Pansexual added.

Source: http://www.glaad.org/files/aa/2017_G...Acceptance.pdf

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## Sennevini

Assuming a natural origin of sexuality, the number probably doesn't rise or fall much throughout the ages.
I think that more people feel safe to open up about themselves, because of rising acceptance by the society.
That means more visibility, creating a probably false sense that the total number of lgbt people is rising, whereas
it's just a rise of people opening up about themselves. That's the way I see it.

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## LeBrok

> Assuming a natural origin of sexuality, the number probably doesn't rise or fall much throughout the ages.
> I think that more people feel safe to open up about themselves, because of rising acceptance by the society.
> That means more visibility, creating a probably false sense that the total number of lgbt people is rising, whereas
> it's just a rise of people opening up about themselves. That's the way I see it.


Exactly. People in the West don't need to hide their true sexuality anymore.

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## bicicleur

I think homosexual people make more children than heterosexual people these days, that's why

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## LeBrok

> I think homosexual people make more children than heterosexual people these days, that's why


These days is too late to have more adult homosexuals now. They needed to make more kids 20 years ago and earlier, to have more homesexuals now. You also have to keep in mind that when homosexuals had to hide and merry opposite sex, they were making kids too.
However I don't think it is the case in general today. Could you find statistics to support your suspicion?

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## bicicleur

> These days is too late to have more adult homosexuals now. They needed to make more kids 20 years ago and earlier, to have more homesexuals now. You also have to keep in mind that when homosexuals had to hide and merry opposite sex, they were making kids too.
> However I don't think it is the case in general today. Could you find statistics to support your suspicion?


my comment wasn't meant to be taken serious
but now I see it could
I guess there are many theories and little data on the subject

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## LeBrok

> my comment wasn't meant to be taken serious
> but now I see it could
> I guess there are many theories and little data on the subject


I see. It is even more funny now. ;)

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## srdceleva

It is just scientifically untrue to act like homosexuality is not influenced by culture. There is no genetic basis for homosexuality and it has been shown again and again to be a very malleable. Just the fact that bi sexuality exists should be enough to show people how these things are not set in stone. What is set in stone is the fact that we have a sex drive, not exactly where that drive is geared. Any honest person woukd know that if we stated every weird desire weve had we would not be just considered straight , gay, or whatever. Teenagers have all sorts of desires. Of course your experiences are going to affect you and affect where those desires are geared . I'm surprised how much former girl friends changed what I look for and find attractive in a women. It's not surprising to me that it's growing, more exposure to homosexuality leads more people to consider and become curious about that lifestyle.

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## Angela

Interesting difference between Britain and the U.S.

@srdceleva

I totally disagree. The vast majority of gay men I know report knowing they were gay from a very young age. 

My own observations bear that out.

That doesn't mean there aren't some people who would now try it who wouldn't have in the past. That would inflate the bi-sexual number.

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## Maleth

> If sexual orientation is not influenced by culture and environment, then why is this taking place?:


Because sexual orientation is not influenced by culture and environment but depending on how honest one can be about what they feel, as in not thrown in jail (like used to happen in most of Europe up to just 55 years ago, or thrown from a roof top, stoned and hanged in public (like Isis, Alqaeda, Iran and some other Islamic countries) I wonder what such a survey would be like in these countries including many in East Europe too by the way. I was introduced to an obvious sissish Libyan guy and is so petrified of the whole issue because of the culture he comes from that he kept saying that he is a hetero (straight guy) who occasionally has a fling with a guy. That's how absurd this situation when living under oppressive societies as the ones I mentioned  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Grow up Tomenable  :Rolleyes:

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## Sennevini

> my comment wasn't meant to be taken serious
> but now I see it could
> I guess there are many theories and little data on the subject


Do we even know it isn't true? Birth rates are so low these days, it might even be  :Wink:

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## Maleth

> That doesn't mean there aren't some people who would now try it who wouldn't have in the past. That would inflate the bi-sexual number.


indeed, there are also a good number of bi-curious men and women and are honest enough to admit it (such as in surveys)
publicly in an environments that are safe and no risking being bullied or harassed. That would not mean that they would actually be able to get in the act or even fall in anyway under the homosexual category. Its just a fine tuned definition of peoples feelings on the subject in modern societies.

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## Angela

Fwiw, I went to a university with a very open attitude toward alternative sexual lifestyles. One of the most prominent sign up desks for "clubs" during orientation was the Gay/Lesbian one. Two Lesbian girls were on my dormitory floor. I became quite friendly with one of them because we shared a lot of interests. I think I got my fair share of propositions, and from quite attractive women, contrary to the stereotype, but all the "exposure" in the world, and importuning as well, had absolutely no influence. I'm attracted sexually to men, not women. (well, certain men) That's one thing about which I'm very sure, and I'm sure it's true for the majority of people that they are only attracted to people of the opposite sex. That doesn't mean that in certain circumstances some people might not "experiment" or turn to a person of the same gender for sexual satisfaction. That's a different matter.

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## bicicleur

> indeed, there are also a good number of bi-curious men and women and are honest enough to admit it (such as in surveys)
> publicly in an environments that are safe and no risking being bullied or harassed.


it is like Ali G always repeating 'is it because I is black' whenever he gets offended

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## bicicleur

> Fwiw, I went to a university with a very open attitude toward alternative sexual lifestyles. One of the most prominent sign up desks for "clubs" during orientation was the Gay/Lesbian one. Two Lesbian girls were on my dormitory floor. I became quite friendly with one of them because we shared a lot of interests. I think I got my fair share of propositions, and from quite attractive women, contrary to the stereotype, but all the "exposure" in the world, and importuning as well, had absolutely no influence. I'm attracted sexually to men, not women. (well, certain men) That's one thing about which I'm very sure, and I'm sure it's true for the majority of people that they are only attracted to people of the opposite sex. That doesn't mean that in certain circumstances some people might not "experiment" or turn to a person of the same gender for sexual satisfaction. That's a different matter.


so you're quite sure, but do you mean people exist that aren't sure who are stimulated by society to experiment ?

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## Maleth

> true for the majority of people that they are only attracted to people of the opposite sex. That doesn't mean that in certain circumstances some people might not "experiment" or turn to a person of the same gender for sexual satisfaction. That's a different matter.


Indeed. I believe it also depends how highly sexed is an individual. There is a wide range of sexual appetite from none to insatiable, both men and women and any orientation. As usual never a Black and white situation, but many shades of grey. (probably more then 50  :Laughing: )

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## Fire Haired14

One has to consider that almost every TV show nowadays has a gay character and almost every adult TV show displays plenty of gay affection. Gay affection on TV isn't love or long-term relationships or whatever, like pro-gay activists would want to think, it's lustful and "bad" and whatever other adjective you want to use. One also has to consider that nowadays more than ever in recent memory homosexuality has been in the spotlight a lot and seen as fetishy, "bad", edgy which are triggers for heterosexuality and can raise the chances a heterosexual person does homosexual stuff. 

^All of that can lead to higher rates of homosexual behavior. 

Lebrok, being a hardcore pro-gay person who sees no faults in the gay acceptance trend is being dishonest. There's radicalism in it. Furthermore, "homophobia" isn't comparable to racism just as "pedaphobia"(Fear of pedaphiles) isn't comparable to racism. Yes, many people view homosexuals as adulteriers comparable to pedaphiles. And no they aren't ignorant hateful idiots for doing so. They do so because Gay people haven't in history been a race with a community that others can observe and make conclusions about their moral character. Homosexuals have been in the closet, they've been a rumor, and so it is perfectly understandable that normal heterosexual people have thought of them as devients, has perverted, and corrupt. The fear in "homphobia" is the same as the fear in "pedaphile." 

I'm tired of people treating homosexuals like they're an oppressed race. And I'm tired of you and others viewing "homophobes" as terrible people. I think the way in which liberals have pushed a deviant form of homosexuality into popular media(eg, TV shows) and creepily pushed for homosexual influence in society in general has been radicle and an injustice. This movement is more than a social justice, "be nice to people", movement.

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## Fire Haired14

@Lebrok,

Listing homophobia as one of the great forms of discrimination along with racism and sexism makes little sense for two simple reasons...

1) There are few homosexuals to discriminate.
2) Discrimination of homosexuals is a rare occurrence.

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## Angela

> so you're quite sure, but do you mean people exist that aren't sure who are stimulated by society to experiment ?


Yes, I think that's true. As I said upthread, there are probably people whose sexuality is more "fluid" who feel it's ok now to be bi-sexual. I would believe that percentage of the population has increased. You can see it in the survey numbers. 

I would think there are also people who might just want to "try it out" given the atmosphere, but that doesn't make them homosexual in my opinion. Whatever experimentation people might engage in, if someone of the same sex just isn't sexually appealing to them they just aren't going to continue it if there are other choices, are they? Why would they? What would be the point?

There's also the situation where people starved of sexual contact for whatever reason might turn to a person of the same sex for satisfaction. It did occasionally occur to me when slaving away at The Odyssey that those soldiers and sailors away for twenty years might want to question the women friends of their spouses more than the young men thronging the gates. Who would risk a pregnancy you couldn't explain? It all depends on the strength of someone's sexual desires, as Maleth pointed out, and how strong a societally induced traditional id they possess. That wouldn't make people who do this homosexual either as far as I'm concerned.

Look, people know who sexually arouses them, men even more than women. If they say I'm definitely heterosexual, or I'm definitely homosexual, I think they can be trusted to know, and they probably are being honest, especially in surveys like this where there are no consequences. 

I think it varies by culture as well. Certain ones really do have higher levels of it in my opinion. 

@Fire-Haired,
That's an exceptionally silly and uninformed post. You have a lot to learn about human nature, including sexuality.

I'll add logic to that. There aren't as many homosexuals to discriminate against as, say, blacks, so it's less bad? Really? Maybe it's a lesser societal impact, but less bad? Explain that to some teenage boy who gets beaten half to death, or to the families of gay teens who have committed suicide. Where do you get this nonsense?

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## LeBrok

> It is just scientifically untrue to act like homosexuality is not influenced by culture. There is no genetic basis for homosexuality and it has been shown again and again to be a very malleable. Just the fact that bi sexuality exists should be enough to show people how these things are not set in stone. What is set in stone is the fact that we have a sex drive, not exactly where that drive is geared. Any honest person woukd know that if we stated every weird desire weve had we would not be just considered straight , gay, or whatever. Teenagers have all sorts of desires. Of course your experiences are going to affect you and affect where those desires are geared . I'm surprised how much former girl friends changed what I look for and find attractive in a women. It's not surprising to me that it's growing, more exposure to homosexuality leads more people to consider and become curious about that lifestyle.


If you think sexuality is cultural, please tell us who taught you how to erect your penis when you were presented with a beautiful woman (assuming you are a straight man)? I don't remember any classes about this, not even books about this. How do we teach penis to get up when the right time comes? If it is a cultural phenomenon than this need to be a learned thing, right?

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## LeBrok

> @Lebrok,
> 
> Listing homophobia as one of the great forms of discrimination along with racism and sexism makes little sense for two simple reasons...
> 
> 1) There are few homosexuals to discriminate.
> 2) Discrimination of homosexuals is a rare occurrence


oh, you discovered a limit for discrimination? It still exists, right? Or if it is lower than 100 we can proclaim it doesn't exist?
Lets not forget about the rest of the world were homosexuals are still afraid for their lives. How about homosexuals in Saudi Arabia, India or Zambia? Perhaps we shouldn't care either, because they are Muslims or Africans. Just a bunch of foreigners. 
* You shall love your neighbor as yourself*

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## Fire Haired14

> oh, you discovered a limit for discrimination? It still exists, right? Or if it is lower than 100 we can proclaim it doesn't exist?


I didn't argue homophobia isn't a form of discrimination. I argued homophobia is not a comparable form of discrimination to racism and sexism. 

I called you out to confront you about the flaws in the pro-gay movement. Furthermore "homophobes" have been unjustly demonized and anyone today who shows any indication of opposing the pro-gay agenda is shot down. Nothing human do is perfect, if you're objective you can certainly see flaws in the pro-gay movement, and yet I haven't seen public supporters or you admit this.

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## stevenarmstrong

> [...] just as "pedaphobia"(Fear of pedaphiles) isn't comparable to racism.


Pedaphobia means fear of children. This post makes me think I'm coming down with an acute case of stultophobia.

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## stevenarmstrong

> @Lebrok,
> 
> Listing homophobia as one of the great forms of discrimination along with racism and sexism makes little sense for two simple reasons...
> 
> 1) There are few homosexuals to discriminate.
> 2) Discrimination of homosexuals is a rare occurrence.


By that logic, concerns over anti-Jewish sentiments are even less worth mentioning, as there are far fewer Jews throughout the world than homosexuals (especially when you expand that label to include bisexuals and transgendered).

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## Fire Haired14

> Pedaphobia means fear of children.


Whatever. You know what I mean by "Pedaphobia." I won't waste my time researching Greek to create a new word meaning fear of pedaphiles. 




> This post makes me think I'm coming down with an acute case of stultophobia.


Knowledge of isolated facts isn't intelligence, lack of knowledge of isolated facts isn't stupidity. My lack of knowledge of the precise meaning of the Greek root words of pedaphila doesn't mean I'm stupid. 

Accusing me of stupidity because I don't know isolated facts isn't a real argument it's an ad hominem argument.




> By that logic, concerns over anti-Jewish sentiments are even less worth mentioning, as there are far fewer Jews throughout the world than homosexuals (especially when you expand that label to include bisexuals and transgendered).


But Jews are an ethnicity and a religion, Homosexuals are not. Homosexuals can't be discriminated in the same way as Jews can be.

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## Maleth

Lets have a survey in Chechnya........no homosexuals in Chechnya............saying that there are gay people in Chechnya is fake news......  :Grin: , sorry it should be this :Vomitting: 

http://www.euronews.com/2017/04/06/c...i-gay-campaign

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## srdceleva

> If you think sexuality is cultural, please tell us who taught you how to erect your penis when you were presented with a beautiful woman (assuming you are a straight man)? I don't remember any classes about this, not even books about this. How do we teach penis to get up when the right time comes? If it is a cultural phenomenon than this need to be a learned thing, right?


In my comment I said sex drive is what we all have and is genetic and set in stone. However sexual orientation is something that is not set in stone and is affected by your experiences and is malleable, it's why identical twins can have different t orientations and why many people can be in homosexual relationships at one time in their life and then straight ones later. Some people may feel rejected by the opposite sex and find acceptance and love from same sex community. More exposure to this life style can lead more people into it, it's a natural affect of it.

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## Maleth

> In my comment I said sex drive is what we all have and is genetic and set in stone. However sexual orientation is something that is not set in stone and is affected by your experiences and is malleable, it's why identical twins can have different t orientations and why many people can be in homosexual relationships at one time in their life and then straight ones later. Some people may feel rejected by the opposite sex and find acceptance and love from same sex community. More exposure to this life style can lead more people into it, it's a natural affect of it.


Any of this ever happened to you? I am homosexual and I can tell you what you are saying is not correct. I know many heteros rejected by opposite sex but still where turned on by opposite sex and had new relationships with opposite sex, the same with those attracted to same sex. Probably anyone would have a very clear idea of where there preferences lay by puberty and this obsessive argument that sexual excitement changes as we please is a total fallacy.

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## srdceleva

> Interesting difference between Britain and the U.S.
> 
> @srdceleva
> 
> I totally disagree. The vast majority of gay men I know report knowing they were gay from a very young age. 
> 
> My own observations bear that out.
> 
> That doesn't mean there aren't some people who would now try it who wouldn't have in the past. That would inflate the bi-sexual number.


Of course many homosexuals claim to be born that way, the notion gains them acceptance and forces their lifestyle to be held to a standard like race or sex. It's just completely untrue. I've known many homesxuals in the past and almost all of them had identity issues insecurities with the other sex and all sorts of mental complexes. My best friend at 14 genuinely liked girls. I remember him always talking about this one girl and trying to talk to her. He's now gay. People can claim he was faking at that age but he wasn't there was no need to and I could see he genuinely​ liked girls. I've also met many lesbian girls who after talking to them and getting to know them I could see they liked me. I don't buy into the absurd notion that orientation is set in stone. Actually that goes against almost all serious studies and even in nature where homesxual behavior is found, exclusive homosexuality is essentially non existent. The ancient world also for example had no notion of exclusive homosexuality only of all sexuality. Now in modern times we claim exclusive homosexuality is innate...This is obviously affected by culture. 

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2016...-born-this-way 

I only ever see emotionally charged arguments in favor of homosexuality, never seriously thought out explanations or scientific evidence to back it up.

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## Maleth

> Of course many homosexuals claim to be born that way, the notion gains them acceptance and forces their lifestyle to be held to a standard like race or sex. It's just completely untrue. I've known many homesxuals in the past and almost all of them had identity issues insecurities with the other sex and all sorts of mental complexes. My best friend at 14 genuinely liked girls. I remember him always talking about this one girl and trying to talk to her. He's now gay. People can claim he was faking at that age but he wasn't there was no need to and I could see he genuinely​ liked girls. I've also met many lesbian girls who after talking to them and getting to know them I could see they liked me. I don't buy into the absurd notion that orientation is set in stone. Actually that goes against almost all serious studies and even in nature where homesxual behavior is found, exclusive homosexuality is essentially non existent. The ancient world also for example had no notion of exclusive homosexuality only of all sexuality. Now in modern times we claim exclusive homosexuality is innate...This is obviously affected by culture. 
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2016...-born-this-way 
> 
> I only ever see emotionally charged arguments in favor of homosexuality, never seriously thought out explanations or scientific evidence to back it up.


 Regarding the article I don't think anyone denied that there is such thing as bisexuality. I used to be very skeptical of Bisexuals in my younger days, thinking it was just a transition from living a fake hetero life into the gay one ( although these cases are common too) but through experience I know it is a fact that genuine bisexuals do exist and are comfortable with it. 

In my case I have always been homo and I had no reason to be, if it depended on the fake assumption that environment is to blame. I never had experiences to make me feel sexually attracted sexually to the opposite sex, and it wasn't like there was no opportunity. I know scores of people and many other heteros that really did not need to switch for any silly reason. The whole concept is so vague and unrealistic. 

where are your seriously thought explanations and scientific evidence.? You claim to be a hetero? so how can you talk on behalf of homosexuals? what would you know about it?

srdceleva, tell us something about you. Do you find switching easy?

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## srdceleva

> Regarding the article I don't think anyone denied that there is such thing as bisexuality. I used to be very skeptical of Bisexuals in my younger days, thinking it was just a transition from living a fake hetero life into the gay one ( although these cases are common too) but through experience I know it is a fact that genuine bisexuals do exist and are comfortable with it. 
> 
> In my case I have always been homo and I had no reason to be if it depended on the fake assumption that environment is to blame. I never had experiences to make feel sexually attracted sexually to the opposite sex and I know scores of people and many other heteros that really did not need to switch for any silly reason.
> 
> srdceleva, tell us something about you. Do you find switching easy?


I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested. have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.

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## Maleth

> I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested. have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.


I really appreciate your honesty. So isn't it possible that you are a repressed bisexual? Maybe the culture and environment is not letting you be who you are? I cannot perform sexually with a woman and was never inclined too. Until I came out as a homosexual I have told a thousand lies to please my family and friends of the time, also been out with a number of women. But it was all fake. Not a life I recommend to anyone. Luckily I live in a safe environment and do not need to be fake no more. I have spoken to scores of gay people and all have same story. I also have many Hetero friends and when discussing they all say that they are 100% hetero and cannot perform with same sex even if they tried. There are very few exceptions so its not the norm. What more evidence do the deniers need? We had a couple of gays that joined the Evengalical church and said they were 'cured' meaning they are attracted to women. One of them admitted that he is only suppressed, and the other is once again back to gay life.........so these testimonies can easily be theatrical, while they can cause a lot of harm.

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## stevenarmstrong

> But Jews are an ethnicity and a religion, Homosexuals are not. Homosexuals can't be discriminated in the same way as Jews can be.


Let's set the other silliness aside, and focus on this statement, which does seem to be the crux of your argument. 

For many years, homosexuality was classified by psychologists as a disorder. Let's assume psychological disorders can be divided into two broad categories: inherited and acquired. Acquired disorders usually result from some kind of physical, emotional and/or psychological trauma (e.g. PTSD). Let's play devil's advocate and categorize homosexuality as an acquired disorder. Even if that were the case, such people cannot and should not be discriminated against. And for you or anyone to claim that homosexuals are not subject to various forms of discrimination around the world (ranging from teasing in the boys locker room at best to torture and murder at worst), and therefore should not be acknowledged by the greater society, is ignorant (or dishonest) and counterproductive.

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## srdceleva

> I really appreciate your honesty. So isn't it possible that you are a repressed bisexual? Maybe the culture and environment is not letting you be who you are? I cannot perform sexually with a woman and was never inclined too. Until I came out as a homosexual I have told a thousand lies to please my family and friends of the time, also been out with a number of women. But it was all fake. Not a life I recommend to anyone. Luckily I live in a safe environment and do not need to be fake no more. I have spoken to scores of gay people and all have same story. I also have many Hetero friends and when discussing they all say that they are 100% hetero and cannot perform with same sex even if they tried. There are very few exceptions so its not the norm. What more evidence do the deniers need? We had a couple of gays that joined the Evengalical church and said they were 'cured' meaning they are attracted to women. One of them admitted that he is only suppressed, and the other is once again back to gay life.........so these testimonies can easily be theatrical, while they can cause a lot of harm.


The problems with humans is we try to put everything into a neat little box. I'm not a repressed bi sexual or anything I'm just a 100 percent normal male. Many straight men are insecure and afraid to admit that a lot of their desires aren't always the straight and narrow. It's not the case for any man on this planet. However experiences and mindsets can lead us to take those desires and enhance them. Some men feel emotionally more comfortable with other men and then they get involved sexually with them, the same for women. Not because they were born inheritantly gay but because of other factors. Actually I feel like these boxes do gay people a big injustice, they ostracise them in society. I think the world would be a lot better if people just spoke honestly instead of putting everything into a box

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## Maleth

> The problems with humans is we try to put everything into a neat little box. I'm not a repressed bi sexual or anything I'm just a 100 percent normal male. Many straight men are insecure and afraid to admit that a lot of their desires aren't always the straight and narrow. It's not the case for any man on this planet. However experiences and mindsets can lead us to take those desires and enhance them. Some men feel emotionally more comfortable with other men and then they get involved sexually with them, the same for women. Not because they were born inheritantly gay but because of other factors. Actually I feel like these boxes do gay people a big injustice, they ostracise them in society. I think the world would be a lot better if people *just spoke honestly* instead of putting everything into a box


srdceleva there is not one moment I was not honest in what I said, and I do not really care what people think about me. All I can tell you is that I am happy with the friends around me as I can be who I am without having to pretend or please. There were a few times I have felt emotionally more comfortable with a female friend/s in difficult moments, but I never got sexually turned on. Homosexuality has been around since time immemorial and we also now know its very prevalent in the animal kingdom. Some homosexuals (male and female) even show signs pre puberty with their behavior while others are very much less obvious. I think its an obsession to always hear the same argument of the environment vs innate.

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## Bergin

The entire concept of homosexuality is not a black or white definition anymore, at least for me.
The major gaps between the genders have are clearly being filled, especially in the west. Just an example: the idea of the smelly strong man and the delicate fragile woman are very obsolete. Nowdays, women are as strong and independent as men, and man are as self caring as women. 
So if you look for certain attributes in a person (beyond sexuality) the chances that you will find them inside or outside your gender are getting closer. Same holds for friendships and many other relations. 

please don't misinterpret: I am saying that increased gender equality influences homosexuality rates, but that is just one factor!

----------


## Maleth

> please don't misinterpret: I am saying that increased gender equality influences homosexuality rates, but that is just one factor!


I don't think that would make a difference to whether one would DECIDE or CHOOSE be a homosexual or not. Being honest is a safe environment will bring about the true figures. Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense. Sexuality (sexual attraction) does not switch as readily or as easily as some people make it out to be. Besides of having my own experiences I have spoken to scores of homosexual and heteros on the subject. Enough to say what I say with confidentiality.

----------


## Tomenable

> Assuming a natural origin of sexuality, the number probably doesn't rise or fall much throughout the ages.
> I think that more people feel safe to open up about themselves, because of rising acceptance by the society.
> That means more visibility, creating a probably false sense that the total number of lgbt people is rising, whereas
> it's just a rise of people opening up about themselves. That's the way I see it.


AFAIK, those were anonymous surveys, people didn't have to be afraid about their privacy. So your suggestion that many older people lied when claiming that they are straight, due to being afraid, doesn't make much sense.




> Exactly. People in the West don't need to hide their true sexuality anymore.


It doesn't make sense because they never needed to hide it in anonymous surveys like these.

============

By the way:

*"Why Does the Search for a Gay Gene Freak Everyone Out?":*

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...freak_out.html

"(...) While researching _Identically Different_, my book on the effect of epigenetics on twins, *I interviewed several sets of identical twins where one was gay and one straight* (which is more common than both being gay). 

*All pairs were puzzled by their eventual differences, which often didn’t emerge until well after puberty.* In these genetic clones, genes might explain their increased susceptibility but clearly were not enough to be in any way “deterministic.”

Importantly, while genes couldn’t explain the differences, the relatively new mechanism of epigenetics—which can differ between twins—was the probable reason. *When I discussed these results last year on the radio, gay rights activists seemed to get even more upset at the idea of epigenetics rather than plain genetics. They were worried that as these changes were theoretically reversible, epigenetic drugs might become a future anti-gay treatment in oppressive societies. (...)"
*
I know a police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. 

Now he has a "boyfriend". I guess that it could be some *epigenetic occurence* which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation.

----------


## Tomenable

> I am homosexual


Out of curiosity - what is your WeGene "Rainbow Index"?

I wonder how much of WeGene "Rainbow Index" do males who identify as gays score?:

Anthrogenica (works only for males, apparently female sexuality is 100% non-genetic):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-6843.html




> One thing that I found interesting in the WeGene report and that does not exist in the 23andme report is the "rainbow index", which basically is supposed to say if you are straight or gay, the spectrum is 1-100. This app is based on following literatures:
> 
> 1. Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation.Psychol Med. 2015 May;45(7):1379-88
> 2. A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation.Hum Genet. 2005 Mar;116(4):272-8
> 3. Linkage between sexual orientation and chromosome Xq28 in males but not in females.Nat Genet. 1995 Nov;11(3):248-56
> 
> (...)





> Originally Posted by lifeisdandy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by AJL
> 
> ...


http://i.imgur.com/2GwfK4e.png

----------


## Bergin

Hi Maleth (#37), 
I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging and sex - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence. 

Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'

----------


## LeBrok

> Hi Maleth (#37), 
> I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging and sex - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence. 
> 
> Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
> I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'


Use Reply With Quote button. ;)

----------


## LeBrok

> I only ever see emotionally charged arguments in favor of homosexuality, never seriously thought out explanations or scientific evidence to back it up.


There is a lot research done. Most point to differences in brain structure, and as we know the most sexual organ is our brain.
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=...xeCdwQgQMIGDAA

----------


## LeBrok

> I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. *However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested.* have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.


In your case, you might be in a group of bisexual people, who can chose a sex to identify with. This actually can make all the sexuality subject a bit muddy to understand. If you extrapolate your feelings on other people you can come to the conclusion that everybody can make similar choices. The problem is that most of us can't. For example, I'm a strictly hetero man. I never played with dolls, though I had access to, and I never cared about women clothes either. Pretty much from onset of puberty I immediately knew I was sexually attracted to women only. Nobody taught me to be attracted to women, nobody taught me how to pump my blood to my penis to get excited when seeing a woman. The reaction was always spontaneous, often surprising (when in wrong moment), uncontrollable and simply automatic. No choise. This could be only explained by my brain being hardwired to recognize feminine beauty as sexual beauty. Also, I never fantasized about touching other a man, being in relationship with a man, kissing a man. I never had smallest erection looking at naked handsome young man. Never. No choice again. Obviously no man sexual beauty compartment in my brain to activate my desire for them.
Now, I can easily understand a gay man, who by design of his brain, have brain architecture in sexuality compartment like a women. In this case he will get sexually excited seeing young handsome man, not a woman. He will have no choice. You see, we all carry male and female brain "schematics" in our genes. Y chromosome makes male brain to be built a bit different than female, and this includes sexual department. Which tells you which sex to be attracted to. Genetic mistakes happen very often and it is conceivable that some people will have mixed female/male mixture of brain architecture. This problem was exacerbated in humans due to arranged marriages in the past. Even intolerance against gays in previous decades. I know few gays that still pretend to be hetero in their relationships. I know few from my high school who never had girlfriends and eventually became priests. I also know couple who finally stopped pretending and divorced to live with boyfriends. I know many of these people from way back, and I doubt that they made a conscious free choice to become gay. 

Who would want to make their lives more difficult, go against family, religious preaching, becoming laughing stock of neighborhood, being beaten up by bullies, harder to find mates, and create problems having children, if they had a choice?

Even if epigenetics has something to do with sexuality, it is still genetics, and give no choice to individuals.

----------


## Maleth

> Out of curiosity - what is your WeGene "Rainbow Index"?
> 
> I wonder how much of WeGene "Rainbow Index" do males who identify as gays score?:
> 
> Anthrogenica (works only for males, apparently female sexuality is 100% non-genetic):
> 
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-6843.html
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think it works being that I tested with FTDNA. It would have been interesting to find out. Female sexuality according to the forum says no genes have been identified yet, but be rest assured its not different from the males. Many butch (Masculine) Lesbians act pretty much like boys even pre puberty. Some can be so obvious (fight, play football, in love with fast cars and so on) that I do not understand how on earth can anyone think that the environment can bring this on.

----------


## Maleth

> Hi Maleth (#37), 
> I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging *and sex* - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence. 
> 
> Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
> I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'


I agree with what you said except for the sex. Again I have every reason to believe that deep down we know our sexual preferences and for most it is quite clear. However sexual frustrations (which can be common) can maybe lead to weird scenarios such as mentioned before as in cases were men are away from their wife or women for a very long time or maybe prisons.....but this will not make a person a homosexual. Do not be fooled or impressed by people who were repressed homosexuals for a number of reason (even in Western world) who finally decided to be themselves at some point in their life. thinking they changed their sexuality. It simply doesn't exist.

----------


## Maleth

> AFAIK, those were anonymous surveys, people didn't have to be afraid about their privacy. So your suggestion that many older people lied when claiming that they are straight, due to being afraid, doesn't make much sense.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't make sense because they never needed to hide it in anonymous surveys like these.
> 
> ============


How are these anonymous surveys carried out? Most surveys are done over the phone (normally with someone happens to be in the same room, or the chances are you have to fill it in online or on paper, with someone being aware of it anyway. Total anonymity is very hard to achieve. I believe the vast majority of surveys are still conducted over land lines which are becoming more and more passe. Survey companies need to start finding more Avant guard methods to get more accurate data.

----------


## Bergin

Hi Maleth, 

Somehow I am having problems to communicate my idea. I am not saying that people change sexual preferences. I am saying that we are tending to become gender blind, unisex. In strong daylight you can' t distinguish anymore the color of the traffic light, so other mechanisms provide priority. And, again, in extreme darkness and oppressive fog, you simply try not to get off the road.

One last point. 
The closest connection I can think to homosexuality is mixed marriages (ethnicity as compared to gender). Don't you really see that all these concepts such as ethnicity, gender, and sexuality are getting grayer and grayer by the day in what is probably one of the major achievements of the actual western society. In another post here, was asked how racist is europe... can you connect the dots?

----------


## Angela

> Hi Maleth, 
> 
> Somehow I am having problems to communicate my idea. I am not saying that people change sexual preferences. I am saying that we are tending to become gender blind, unisex. In strong daylight you can' t distinguish anymore the color of the traffic light, so other mechanisms provide priority. And, again, in extreme darkness and oppressive fog, you simply try not to get off the road.
> 
> One last point. 
> The closest connection I can think to homosexuality is mixed marriages (ethnicity as compared to gender). Don't you really see that all these concepts such as ethnicity, gender, and sexuality are getting grayer and grayer by the day in what is probably one of the major achievements of the actual western society. In another post here, was asked how racist is europe... can you connect the dots?


Sorry, I don't get this either. I think sexuality is hard-wired in your brain. You're either sexually aroused by people of your own gender or you're not. If you're not, it doesn't matter how acceptable it is or fashionable or how much you love certain women as friends, as I do my women friends. I don't want to have sex with them, period. It has never once entered my mind, and I've been in "intimate" situations with them, on numerous trips, for example. 

When most women watch an erotic scene in a movie, for example, they're not fantasizing caressing the beautiful actress, they're fantasizing_ being_ her so they can be with that man. That's what all that teen-age girl hysteria for certain actors is all about. As LeBrok pointed out, men carry around their own barometer. It either gets "activated" or it doesn't, and by puberty you know your sexual orientation by that alone. You might hide it, but you know it. Not to be too gross about it, but there are all sorts of experiments done on women as well as men measuring erotic "response", and it bears this out. 

If someone can easily contemplate wanting to have sex with their same gender friends, then that person is probably either gay or bi-sexual, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

There's absolutely no correlation to things like racism. It's not impossible that I'd be attracted to a part black man, but I won't ever be attracted to a part black woman.

That's why I think all this concern about Hollywood putting so many gay relationships out there is so unnecessary. Relax guys. Look at the numbers for gays and lesbians combined even today. They're a very decided minority, and they're not going to increase because it's fashionable or whatever. We are who we are in this matter imo.

----------


## Bergin

Hi Angela

Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference? 
Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think. 

Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.



All i am sayi

----------


## epoch

> If sexual orientation is not influenced by culture and environment, then why is this taking place?:
> 
> *SNIP*
> 
> Source: http://www.glaad.org/files/aa/2017_G...Acceptance.pdf


I would love to see a break down between sexes.

BTW: It is not very scientific, I assume. Online poll if I understand correctly.

----------


## Maleth

> Hi Angela
> 
> Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference? 
> Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think. 
> 
> Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.
> 
> 
> 
> All i am sayi


There are the exceptions and there are the rules. One should not perceive the exceptions as rules.

----------


## Angela

> Hi Angela
> 
> Just for the sake of philosophy: what would the barometer tell regarding a hermaphrodite? (maybe a transgender ). Actually would be really curious to know about experiments. So for me the main question is: if you are aroused by a transgender, what is your sexual preference? 
> Now try to put this scenario in a teenager environment... that is my all point I think. 
> 
> Again, there is neither good or bad in it, but I do see it as a great change and sign of acceptance.
> 
> 
> 
> All i am sayi


I totally agree with you that it is much more acceptable today. I also agree with you that there is more experimentation among young people today. I just don't think it really affects your actual sexual orientation or your future life to any large degree.

From what I recall reading some years ago, most men in these studies are only sexually aroused by pictures or videos of women. The minority of men who were only or also aroused by pictures or videos of male sexual activity, when asked, identified as homosexual or bisexual. I don't think you can fake your physical response when you're hooked up to monitors. 

It was different for women. A lot of them were aroused by any sexual activity, although not by just photos of naked men, or women, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, some researchers took it to mean most women, unlike men, are inherently bi-sexual. If the latter is true then I guess I'm the exception. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, however. I think it has to be looked at in context. Perhaps it is the activity, even the relationship between the parties which is arousing, but that doesn't necessarily mean most women don't have a decided preference. I do agree, however, that there are probably more women than men who could be either with a man or a woman. With men, I think it's usually either women or men, with fewer having a more fluid sexuality. That's just my subjective impression from the people I know, of course.

I'm sure google scholar would have these studies, and probably more current ones.

----------


## Angela

> I totally agree with you that it is much more acceptable today. I also agree with you that there is more experimentation among young people today. I just don't think it really affects your actual sexual orientation or your future life to any large degree.
> 
> From what I recall reading some years ago, most men in these studies are only sexually aroused by pictures or videos of women. The minority of men who were only or also aroused by pictures or videos of male sexual activity, when asked, identified as homosexual or bisexual. I don't think you can fake your physical response when you're hooked up to monitors. 
> 
> It was different for women. A lot of them were aroused by any sexual activity, although not by just photos of naked men, or women, for that matter. If I'm not mistaken, some researchers took it to mean most women, unlike men, are inherently bi-sexual. If the latter is true then I guess I'm the exception. I don't necessarily agree with that interpretation, however. I think it has to be looked at in context. Perhaps it is the activity, even the relationship between the parties which is arousing, but that doesn't necessarily mean most women don't have a decided preference. I do agree, however, that there are probably more women than men who could be either with a man or a woman. With men, I think it's usually either women or men, with fewer having a more fluid sexuality. That's just my subjective impression from the people I know, of course.
> 
> I'm sure google scholar would have these studies, and probably more current ones.


This study isn't based on hooking people up to machines, but it seems pretty legit. It's interest lies mostly in the fact that people are reporting on actual sexual contact. I'd caution, though, that the "lifetime" numbers are unlikely to be accurate as they probably include a lot of adolescent fumbling around and experimentation.

https://contexts.org/blog/sexual-ori...men-and-women/

I wouldn't take the Kenzey numbers as reliable. From what I remember, he was testing a lot of prison inmates. Of course they would have had more same sex encounters. 

Wiki doesn't have much, although it gives some data by country. Even though they seem to be random samples, they're on-line surveys or paper and pen surveys. Still...It seems to me that the number of those who've reported same sex activity rounds out to about 6-7% of the population. The number drops if the researchers specifically include intercourse. "Actual" homosexuality is probably a little lower. Anyway, it seems to be well under 10%, although in certain professions, for example, it's going to be higher. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...al_orientation

Gallup: Americans over-estimate the frequency of homosexuality.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/am...y-lesbian.aspx

The numbers may be slightly higher than the surveys show, however.

----------


## Bergin

Thanks for the info.
Was just reading news and found something that kind of might be related. Thought to share it

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-39513543

----------


## Tomenable

> Many butch (Masculine) Lesbians act pretty much like boys even pre puberty. Some can be so obvious (fight, play football, in love with fast cars and so on) that I do not understand how on earth can anyone think that the environment can bring this on.


Not every masculine woman is a lesbian and not every lesbian is masculine. Also I think that among women bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. And bisexuality is more common among women than among men.

----------


## srdceleva

> In your case, you might be in a group of bisexual people, who can chose a sex to identify with. This actually can make all the sexuality subject a bit muddy to understand. If you extrapolate your feelings on other people you can come to the conclusion that everybody can make similar choices. The problem is that most of us can't. For example, I'm a strictly hetero man. I never played with dolls, though I had access to, and I never cared about women clothes either. Pretty much from onset of puberty I immediately knew I was sexually attracted to women only. Nobody taught me to be attracted to women, nobody taught me how to pump my blood to my penis to get excited when seeing a woman. The reaction was always spontaneous, often surprising (when in wrong moment), uncontrollable and simply automatic. No choise. This could be only explained by my brain being hardwired to recognize feminine beauty as sexual beauty. Also, I never fantasized about touching other a man, being in relationship with a man, kissing a man. I never had smallest erection looking at naked handsome young man. Never. No choice again. Obviously no man sexual beauty compartment in my brain to activate my desire for them.
> Now, I can easily understand a gay man, who by design of his brain, have brain architecture in sexuality compartment like a women. In this case he will get sexually excited seeing young handsome man, not a woman. He will have no choice. You see, we all carry male and female brain "schematics" in our genes. Y chromosome makes male brain to be built a bit different than female, and this includes sexual department. Which tells you which sex to be attracted to. Genetic mistakes happen very often and it is conceivable that some people will have mixed female/male mixture of brain architecture. This problem was exacerbated in humans due to arranged marriages in the past. Even intolerance against gays in previous decades. I know few gays that still pretend to be hetero in their relationships. I know few from my high school who never had girlfriends and eventually became priests. I also know couple who finally stopped pretending and divorced to live with boyfriends. I know many of these people from way back, and I doubt that they made a conscious free choice to become gay. 
> 
> Who would want to make their lives more difficult, go against family, religious preaching, becoming laughing stock of neighborhood, being beaten up by bullies, harder to find mates, and create problems having children, if they had a choice?
> 
> Even if epigenetics has something to do with sexuality, it is still genetics, and give no choice to individuals.


I'm not I'm just like any other straight man, I love women and have never even considered changing that but my point is that sexual desire is sexual desire. If we let it control us we can all behave like animals. Dogs will hump objects, humans legs, male dogs, and mate with female dogs. Bonobos our closest relatives are essentially bi sexual. Exclusive homosexuality is almost never found in the animal kingdom and even ancient Greeks and Romans didn't have it. As teenagers pumped up with hormones many weird and strange things can turn you on. You can see a pencil and it reminds u of something sexual and can turn you on. It all depends how you look at things. When someone looks at a hole he can either look at it as an innocent hole or as a sexual object. Everything is in the mind. Just the fact that lesbians have to use male objects to have sex and even sex between men has to resemble sex between men and women by one receiving and one giving we can already see that it's all an immitation of the natural relationship between men and women. This is also exhibited by homosexual couples where one will play the masculine role and one the feminine role. Ive literally seen male gay couples walking around in NY where one dressed like a women and the other behaved like a dominant masculine man. All of this talk about it being hardwired into their brains is nonsense. Many gay men are extremely masculine and not effeminate at all. The same with some lesbian women who are very feminine and not masculine at all. And to the comments about gay men being only attracted to men it's also nonsense George Michael even said he was physically attracted to women and slept with many of them but he didn't feel connections in the relationship also a gay guy I knew at work said the same thing. People are trying to oversimplify something that can't be simplified. What we can say for sure is though is that if you are a 100% normal man with no deformation then your body is literally designed for a women's and the same for 100 percent healthy women being designed for a man's. This is a biological fact and the fact that gay men can sleep with gay women and have 100 % healthy normal children attests to that. I'm speaking about a natural secular design.

----------


## LeBrok

> I'm not I'm just like any other straight man, I love women and have never even considered changing that but my point is that sexual desire is sexual desire. If we let it control us we can all behave like animals. Dogs will hump objects, humans legs, male dogs, and mate with female dogs. Bonobos our closest relatives are essentially bi sexual. Exclusive homosexuality is almost never found in the animal kingdom and even ancient Greeks and Romans didn't have it. As teenagers pumped up with hormones many weird and strange things can turn you on. You can see a pencil and it reminds u of something sexual and can turn you on. It all depends how you look at things. When someone looks at a hole he can either look at it as an innocent hole or as a sexual object. Everything is in the mind. Just the fact that lesbians have to use male objects to have sex and even sex between men has to resemble sex between men and women by one receiving and one giving we can already see that it's all an immitation of the natural relationship between men and women. This is also exhibited by homosexual couples where one will play the masculine role and one the feminine role. Ive literally seen male gay couples walking around in NY where one dressed like a women and the other behaved like a dominant masculine man. All of this talk about it being hardwired into their brains is nonsense. Many gay men are extremely masculine and not effeminate at all. The same with some lesbian women who are very feminine and not masculine at all. And to the comments about gay men being only attracted to men it's also nonsense George Michael even said he was physically attracted to women and slept with many of them but he didn't feel connections in the relationship also a gay guy I knew at work said the same thing. People are trying to oversimplify something that can't be simplified. What we can say for sure is though is that if you are a 100% normal man with no deformation then your body is literally designed for a women's and the same for 100 percent healthy women being designed for a man's. This is a biological fact and the fact that gay men can sleep with gay women and have 100 % healthy normal children attests to that. I'm speaking about a natural secular design.


Again you made a cardinal mistake assuming that all people feel like you do. Your sexual examples of everything making a young man aroused are completely strange to me. I had couple of friends like this, though.
Anyway, did you managed to read some of scientific research I pointed you to?

----------


## srdceleva

> Again you made a cardinal mistake assuming that all people feel like you do. Your sexual examples of everything making a young man aroused are completely strange to me. I had couple of friends like this, though.
> Anyway, did you managed to read some of scientific research I pointed you to?


Well I think we all can only judge the world from our own perspective.

I didn't see any studies directly addressed to me but I'll go and look through the thread and read them.

----------


## LeBrok

> Well I think we all can only judge the world from our own perspective.


How come only? We people can communicate rather precisely with each other and by this we can learn experience, knowledge, feelings, point of view of others. I appreciate your perspective and Maleth and incorporated them in understanding other people, understanding human nature. There was a time in my life when I was trying to understand others through only my experiences. A lot of conflicting conclusions and not much progress.




> I didn't see any studies directly addressed to me but I'll go and look through the thread and read them.


Like the ones pointing to feminine architecture of gay brain?

----------


## srdceleva

> How come only? We people can communicate rather precisely with each other and by this we can learn experience, knowledge, feelings, point of view of others. I appreciate your perspective and Maleth and incorporated them in understanding other people, understanding human nature. There was a time in my life when I was trying to understand others through only my experiences. A lot of conflicting conclusions and not much progress.
> 
> Like the ones pointing to feminine architecture of gay brain?


Yes of course it's good to hear and consider other peoples perspectives, and I hope I am always open and trying to do that. I just meant that at the end of the day, we can all only come to conclusions by the way we perceive and see things. Even when we try our best to understand other peoples perspectives our conclusions still end up being interpreted to how we perceive things.

Ok I see what you mean I somehow didn't see that post it was separate from the other one you addressed to me. I'll read them tomorrow .

----------


## LeBrok

> Yes of course it's good to hear and consider other peoples perspectives, and I hope I am always open and trying to do that. I just meant that at the end of the day, we can all only come to conclusions by the way we perceive and see things. Even when we try our best to understand other peoples perspectives our conclusions still end up being interpreted to how we perceive things.
> 
> Ok I see what you mean I somehow didn't see that post it was separate from the other one you addressed to me. I'll read them tomorrow .


I think, someone smart in the past said, that to understand others we have to start thinking like them. Sort of paradox, isn't it?

----------


## Angela

It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done. 

Every study I've read indicates that they don't _choose_ to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause. 

I think what heterosexuals_ believe_ is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.

----------


## Maleth

> Not every masculine woman is a lesbian and not every lesbian is masculine. Also I think that among women bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. And bisexuality is more common among women than among men.


Indeed but that wasn't my point. My point is that the there are still people who even denies the homosexuality of the very obvious masculine lesbian and feminine males (but not trans gender type) that are so obvious even acting so pre puberty. How can anyone be so blind to this obvious reality?

----------


## Maleth

> It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done. 
> 
> Every study I've read indicates that they don't _choose_ to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause. 
> 
> I think what heterosexuals_ believe_ is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.


Amen...............................

----------


## davef

This supports the view that homosexuality is genetic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homose...ior_in_animals

----------


## srdceleva

> There is a lot research done. Most point to differences in brain structure, and as we know the most sexual organ is our brain.
> https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=...xeCdwQgQMIGDAA


The studies seem very pseudo-scientific in my opinion. Similar to studies done on lesbians where they claimed longer length in certain fingers was due to more testosterone levels and was more common among lesbians.

Im not surprised homosexuals have similar brain development and sexual parts of their brains react when exposed to masculine things. Gay men are living in a sexually active gay lifestyle, we already know how malleable the brain is, obviously if you are practicing a similar activity your brain will develop accordingly, this doesn't mean you were born that way. If we examined the brains of professional tennis players they would also have similar brain structures due to years of practicing and playing tennis. This doesn't contradict anything I said. I think the fact that gay men and gay women can have 100 percent normally healthy children, and that they cant with eachother is biological proof enough for what their bodies are made for. 

With this next question im not trying to be offensive or insult Maleth, regardless of his sexuality he seems like a nice guy and we have reasonable discussions even if we have widely different views. However, no one can ever properly answer this question for me and I need it to be answered. 

Are you(Same Sex marriage proponents) against adult children marrying and living in sexual relationships with their adult parents? Im speaking about adults not children. All of the same arguments can be made in favor of them marrying as well, so whats the difference?

this last question is addressed to everyone in the thread.

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## srdceleva

> It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done. 
> 
> Every study I've read indicates that they don't _choose_ to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause. 
> 
> I think what heterosexuals_ believe_ is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.


This article is very relevant to this thread and is written by a Gay man. 

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/19/no...istorians-say/

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## Angela

I've heard all of this before. I found it unpersuasive then, and I find it unpersuasive now. You're free to believe what you wish.

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## srdceleva

> I've heard all of this before. I found it unpersuasive then, and I find it unpersuasive now. You're free to believe what you wish.


How is it unpersuasive that exclusive homosexuality didn't exist in the past? 

Romans and Greeks and the vast majority of the ancient world didn't even have the concept and they had no stigma towards gays. It's just interesting how it didn't exist untill modern times and how exclusive homosexuality is almost never seen in the animal kingdom. It's just interesting how only peoples opinions who agree with you count. 

Did you read my previous question?

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## Angela

Do you still believe that R1b L51+ originated in western Europe and spread from there? I don't. I think all the modern genetic evidence shows that it spread from the east. However, up until a few years ago a lot of people believed just that. You can still find people, including people in the field, who do believe that. You can go back just a little bit further and look at the disputes over whether agriculture reached Europe through cultural diffusion or arrived with a new population. 

This situation is analogous. Yes, you can find isolated people in the field who still hold homosexuality isn't innate, but the evidence is mounting that this is indeed the case. Notice that I said homosexuality itself, not people who sometimes engage in homosexual sex. For goodness' sakes I sometimes wonder if some of the people writing these things are parents. Or maybe they're the kind of parents where only the nanny takes the kids to the playground. You can see it in some little boys when they're as young as four or five. One of the little boys at our club was like that, and he wasn't the only one I've observed. Are all homosexuals like that? No, they're not, but a good number certainly are. Why do you think even barely pubescent boys are singled out for beatings? It's because they're different. 

As for this claim that none of the Greeks and Romans were exclusively homosexual, that's an absurd claim, imo. For one thing, there's absolutely no way that anyone can know that. More importantly, however, the indications from actual writings of the Greeks, for example, is that there were men who did focus exclusively on younger men, and they were condemned or at least mocked for that. The writer of the article obviously never studied the classics.

As for your last question, incest taboos exist for a very good reason. Most people have inculcated them. So, I think it would be extremely rare for anyone as an adult to develop a sexual "love" for their own parent. 

In addition, however, I think there is a state interest in ensuring that marriage should not occur between close relatives because of the danger of defective children, and the burden of them eventually falling upon the community as a whole. That's why in the west most jurisdictions forbid marriage between siblings, first cousins, etc.

I've only ever heard of one case similar to what you're suggesting. A woman met her birth father as an adult and they began a sexual relationship. I don't know if it was a hoax or legit, but that's what the parties said. She also said they would never have children. I can't even contemplate such a thing, but if you're asking me if they should be stoned to death or something, no, I wouldn't agree with that.

Now, I've said about all I have to say on the subject.

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## LeBrok

> The studies seem very pseudo-scientific in my opinion. Similar to studies done on lesbians where they claimed longer length in certain fingers was due to more testosterone levels and was more common among lesbians.


Wow, I'm not sure if we can have any serious conversation with such strong confirmation bias you represent.

Im not surprised homosexuals have similar brain development and sexual parts of their brains react when exposed to masculine things. Gay men are living in a sexually active gay lifestyle, we already know how malleable the brain is, obviously if you are practicing a similar activity your brain will develop accordingly, this doesn't mean you were born that way. If we examined the brains of professional tennis players they would also have similar brain structures due to years of practicing and playing tennis. This doesn't contradict anything I said. I think the fact that gay men and gay women can have 100 percent normally healthy children, and that they cant with eachother is biological proof enough for what their bodies are made for. [/QUOTE]And how homosexuality starts, before the brain got "malleabled" into homosexuality? You explain how brain keeps homosexuality (once it learned) but you can't explain how it starts? On other hand people who can explain are the pseudo scientists. Bravo.




> With this next question im not trying to be offensive or insult Maleth, regardless of his sexuality he seems like a nice guy and we have reasonable discussions even if we have widely different views. However, no one can ever properly answer this question for me and I need it to be answered. 
> 
> Are you(Same Sex marriage proponents) against adult children marrying and living in sexual relationships with their adult parents? Im speaking about adults not children. All of the same arguments can be made in favor of them marrying as well, so whats the difference?
> 
> this last question is addressed to everyone in the thread.


What heterosexual relationship has to do with homosexuality? Shouldn't we stop heterosexuality instead, because it can lead to father-daughter thing?
I'm sorry, but not understanding this subject or momosexual nature, leads to phobias. In middle ages *everybody knew* this established and confirmed *fact* that witchcraft is real and shouldn't be tolerated. Authority cleaned up society burning sinful people alive. Aren't you glad that now we live on this earth without these bad witches? 
The heck with scientists, lets believe in what people always knew.

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## Angela

> Do you still believe that R1b L51+ originated in western Europe and spread from there? I don't. I think all the modern genetic evidence shows that it spread from the east. However, up until a few years ago a lot of people believed just that. You can still find people, including people in the field, who do believe that. You can go back just a little bit further and look at the disputes over whether agriculture reached Europe through cultural diffusion or arrived with a new population. 
> 
> This situation is analogous. Yes, you can find isolated people in the field who still hold homosexuality isn't innate, but the evidence is mounting that this is indeed the case. Notice that I said homosexuality itself, not people who sometimes engage in homosexual sex. For goodness' sakes I sometimes wonder if some of the people writing these things are parents. Or maybe they're the kind of parents where only the nanny takes the kids to the playground. You can see it in some little boys when they're as young as four or five. One of the little boys at our club was like that, and he wasn't the only one I've observed. Are all homosexuals like that? No, they're not, but a good number certainly are. Why do you think even barely pubescent boys are singled out for beatings? It's because they're different. 
> 
> As for this claim that none of the Greeks and Romans were exclusively homosexual, that's an absurd claim, imo. For one thing, there's absolutely no way that anyone can know that. More importantly, however, the indications from actual writings of the Greeks, for example, is that there were men who did focus exclusively on younger men, and they were condemned or at least mocked for that. The writer of the article obviously never studied the classics.
> 
> As for your last question, incest taboos exist for a very good reason. Most people have inculcated them. So, I think it would be extremely rare for anyone as an adult to develop a sexual "love" for their own parent. 
> 
> In addition, however, I think there is a state interest in ensuring that marriage should not occur between close relatives because of the danger of defective children, and the burden of them eventually falling upon the community as a whole. That's why in the west most jurisdictions forbid marriage between siblings, first cousins, etc.
> ...


I shouldn't have expected you guys to take my word for it.

"It was certainly shameful when a man with a beard remained the passive partner (_pathikos) and it was even worse when a man allowed himself to be penetrated by another grown-up man. The Greeks even had a pejorative expression for these people, whom were called kinaidoi. They were the targets of ridicule by the other citizens, especially comedy writers. For example, Aristophanes (c.445-c.380) shows them dressed like women, with a bra, a wig and a gown, and calls them euryprôktoi, "wide arses"."

_"In the fourth century, it was not uncommon when two grown-up men shared a home. There must have been jokes about these men, but obviously, they found this an acceptable price to pay for living with their beloved one. There was a large discrepancy between the official morals, which were expressed in the ancient laws, and everyday life."

http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/greek-homosexuality/ 

Most of the scholars who've dealt with this subject believe that it derived from male initiation rites practiced by the Indo-Europeans.

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## Tomenable

> and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause.


Identical twins can have different sexual orientation, so it can't be mainly genetic.

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## Angela

I said genetics or epigenetics. 

Then there's all the questions about whether one of the twins has the same orientation but just doesn't act on it.

Anyway, even though it's definitely not always the case, it can certainly "run" in certain families. 

K.D. Lang is one of my all time favorite singers. I don't think she's had the success she so richly deserved mostly due to her flamboyant lesbianism. Three out of the four children in her family are gay, which may be a record.





Rusty, unrehearsed, with no synthesizers or cleaning up, this is how she did a spontaneous version of Roy Orbison's "Crying". It's like every grieving heart in the world took voice. 

That's a singer, not a lot of these idiots on the charts. 





I really don't understand the phobia some men have about this. They're definitely a minority population, and what do straight men think they're going to do to them? If you're propositioned, politely say no and take it as a compliment. That's it. It's no big deal.

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## IronSide

bisexuality is not uncommon in Saudi Arabia, in fact I think it scores the highest in the bisexuality metric worldwide, I have to clarify two things before I start though, I'm talking about males only, because that's the group i'm more familiar with, and that very few identify themselves as bisexual, but almost all whom I deem bisexual would not mind having sex with the same gender, which is not a heterosexual position I guess.

It all starts in high-school, because in Saudi we don't have mixed schools (boys and girls together .. yes, that's our term for it), in this critical period in one's life, when we all start experimenting and discovering our sexuality, we find that most of the people we meet daily, are males, basically we don't have options, and so for most of us, the mind unconsciously adapts to like people of the same sex, but also the opposite, since the first is merely a temporary replacement of the second.

I myself have experienced such an environment, out of nowhere I started to like one of my classmates, he was kinda cute, of mixed central Asian and Arabic blood, he had adorable green eyes and silky hair, a handsome face and a slender body ahh god bless his heart, and I'm sounding like a faggot right now hahahhha.

And that's the irony of the situation, the islamo-fascist government tried to suppress human nature by segregating the genders, to force us to be chaste, and it backfired on them, and now we have one of the largest crypto bisexual and homosexual populations, not that it matters anyway, everyone should be free to do whatever he/she wants, as long as it doesn't break the law, well ... it depends on the law  :Grin: 

and after writing all this I forgot the subject was on western Europe, consider it useful knowledge.

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## Apsurdistan

Undermining of traditional natural order of things
I blame capitalism first and foremost, feminism is at first glance the obvious reason but it was created by capitalism which is a cannibalistic system of obsession with materialistic profit being worshiped above all else.

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## LeBrok

> Undermining of traditional natural order of things
> I blame capitalism first and foremost, feminism is at first glance the obvious reason but it was created by capitalism which is a cannibalistic system of obsession with materialistic profit being worshiped above all else.


Yah, yah, yah, "cannibalistic system" which exists 500 years and growing exponentially. You should have stayed in Yugoslavia/Bosnia and not migrated to US, the bastion of capitalism. But I guess, money talks and bulshit walks. You are doing the walk, but still can't grasp it. Congratulation on education. As for the rest, ture parochial and hyper conservative way of thinking of most Eastern Europeans.

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## Angela

Yes, women are too* masculine*; that's why men turn more to other *men* for sexual release. It's simple Logic 101. :)

@Ironside,
That's actually what I was thinking about when I said it's more prevalent in certain countries than others. It's the same in Afghanistan from what I've read, and other parts of the Near East; really, it's the same wherever men are denied any access to women, like seamen in the past, or prisons etc. To some extent that explains the high incidence in ancient Greece as well. The women were in virtual purdah. 

You're going to get more homosexual behavior, although I don't think you actually necessarily get more homosexuality. It's just that if the sex drive is strong enough, the person will find release somehow.

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## LeBrok

> Yes, women are too* masculine*; that's why men turn more to other *men* for sexual release. It's simple Logic 101. :)
> 
> @Ironside,
> That's actually what I was thinking about when I said it's more prevalent in certain countries than others. It's the same in Afghanistan from what I've read, and other parts of the Near East; really, it's the same wherever men are denied any access to women, like seamen in the past, or prisons etc. To some extent that explains the high incidence in ancient Greece as well. The women were in virtual purdah. 
> 
> You're going to get more homosexual behavior, although I don't think you actually necessarily get more homosexuality. It's just that if the sex drive is strong enough, the person will find release somehow.


For bi-sexuals yes, because they have a choice. When women are not available, no problem, there are so many men around to love. For the rest of us, the strict hetero and homo, it won't work. You can't switch your sexuality at will.
The biggest perpetuation of home and bi sexuality is arrainged mariage, and strict prohibition of homo unions. Because homosexuality is genetic, it will be "sent" to next generation.

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## Apsurdistan

> Yah, yah, yah, "cannibalistic system" which exists 500 years and growing exponentially. You should have stayed in Yugoslavia/Bosnia and not migrated to US, the bastion of capitalism. But I guess, money talks and bulshit walks. You are doing the walk, but still can't grasp it. Congratulation on education. As for the rest, ture parochial and hyper conservative way of thinking of most Eastern Europeans.


I migrated to the US when I was 12 and didn't know anything, and after a civil war. And it's even worse cannibalistic capitalism in former Yugoslavia right now than it is in the west. The workers are treated like cattle. Same shit is being promoted there now only there's less jobs and smaller pay. Yes capitalism is growing exponentially so is homosexuality and low birth rate in the most "developed" capitalist countries. Depression, divorce rates, drug abuse. And we're basically on the brink of ww3 despite the fact nuclear weapons exist.
And I don't wanna go into all the reasons why this system sucks, anyone with a gram of brains can see it's leading to a very bizarre unpredictable future, most likely a bad one. I don't give a shit to explain to someone who doesn't understand or wants to understand, waste of my time.

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## Templar

There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Twin studies hint at that it is not. I think they came up with the genetic argument to make it more socially acceptable.

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## Bergin

> There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Twin studies hint at that it is not. I think they came up with the genetic argument to make it more socially acceptable.


I think is well accepted that genetics plays a role in it. the question is what else plays a role?

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## Tomenable

> There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Twin studies hint at that it is not. I think they came up with the genetic argument to make it more socially acceptable.


My observation (it might be wrong though) is that for people like LeBrok, everything must be genetic unless there are striking racial differences. When there are striking statistical differences between racial groups, then it must be 100% cultural, because claiming otherwise would be racist.

However, he seems to be racist himself against Native Canadians (he claimed that they lag behind due to - quote - "shortage of farmer genes").

I have heard from my Canadian friend, that racism against "First Nations" is still very acceptable for most people in North America. Just like racism against Eastern Europeans (which is why you see LeBrok slandering Eastern Europeans and Native Canadians all the time - these are his two favourite scapegoats, which is kind of funny considering that he is an Eastern European living in a land which formerly belonged to Native Canadians). 

And racism against Blacks, Middle Easterners, and some other groups, is of course Non-PC. He is driven first of all by current trends in political correctness and by his "trendy" leftist views, before logic.

My guess is that racism against Natives is more PC probably because they don't fit into the multicultural narrative. Only immigrants of all kinds fit into the multicultural narrative, not aboriginal inhabitants.

All other kinds of POCs increase "diversity" and "multiculturalism", but Natives do not. Natives just happen to be there, and always have been, so they are not making Canada more multicultural than it already is, and this differentiates them from all other groups, making them _"less attractive"_ for various SJWs etc.

PS:

I was told that accusing someone of racism might be Non-PC if they are leftist or part of another group which enjoys preferential treatment in the West (if they are right wing then it's OK). It is better to call such leftists "nitpicky", "angry" or *"bossy"*. And that's what LeBrok seems to be.




> How is it unpersuasive that exclusive homosexuality didn't exist in the past?


Not only in the past. 

Even at present it does not exist in some societies. 

For example the San Bushmen and the Pygmies.

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## LeBrok

> My observation (it mightu be wrong though) is that for people like LeBrok, *everything must be genetic* unless there are striking racial differences. When there are striking statistical differences between racial groups, *then it must be 100% cultural*, because claiming otherwise would be racist.


And I say it is only in your head, because you can't find me saying that. Go ahead and quote me.




> However, he seems to be racist himself against Native Canadians (he claimed that they lag behind due to - quote - "shortage of farmer genes").


 How difficult is it to recognize differences in races but still treat all equally, inclusive and with respect to all? I guess very, because it is something incomprehensible to you!




> I have heard from my Canadian friend, that racism against "First Nations" is still very acceptable for most people in North America. Just like racism against Eastern Europeans (which is why you see LeBrok slandering Eastern Europeans and Native Canadians all the time - these are his two favourite scapegoats, which is kind of funny considering that he is an Eastern European living in a land which formerly belonged to Native Canadians).


 Wow, what a sharp logic, lol. So if Vietnamese comes to work and live in Poland, he or she must be racist.



> And racism against Blacks, Middle Easterners, and some other groups, is of course Non-PC. He is driven first of all by current trends in political correctness and by his "trendy" leftist views, before logic.


And another great logic of yours "current political correctness is racist to Blacks and Middle Easterners". I hope you will never be an attorney or a judge, or god save your clients!




> *My guess is* that racism against Natives is more PC probably because they don't fit into the multicultural narrative. Only immigrants of all kinds fit into the multicultural narrative, not aboriginal inhabitants.


LOL, your guesses. I know that racism is due to intolerant and close minded people like you. Ether like it or not, you represent this conservative past, which enslaved others and lead nationalist and religious wars. In the past the world was full of people like you.




> All other kinds of POCs increase "diversity" and "multiculturalism", but Natives do not. Natives just happen to be there, and always have been, so they are not making Canada more multicultural than it already is, and this differentiates them from all other groups, making them _"less attractive"_ for various SJWs etc.


Oh, teach me about Canada. 





> I was told that accusing someone of racism might be Non-PC if they are leftist or part of another group which enjoys preferential treatment in the West (if they are right wing then it's OK). It is better to call such leftists "nitpicky", "angry" or *"bossy"*. And that's what LeBrok seems to be.


 You don't like to be a racist, it hurts you? Stop being one. Try to be tolerant, inclusive and respectful to others.

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## Maleth

> There is no conclusive evidence that homosexuality is genetic. Twin studies hint at that it is not. I think they came up with the genetic argument to make it more socially acceptable.


I very much doubt it. As for those of you who console your believes on some kind of Twin study prove...read this. Also to add further to my personal experience the only identical twins I know in my area happen to be both gay.

_For example, one twin in Bruder's study was missing some genes on particular chromosomes that indicated a risk of_ _leukemia__, which he indeed suffered. The other twin did not.

_https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...not-identical/

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## Maleth

> Undermining of traditional natural order of things
> I blame capitalism first and foremost, feminism is at first glance the obvious reason but it was created by capitalism which is a cannibalistic system of obsession with materialistic profit being worshiped above all else.


What is wrong with feminism? Can someone explain?. I guess its an evil word for those who think that a woman's place irrelevant to her abilities is to stay at home cooking and making babies. There is nothing natural about that. That could have been a system that worked well during some era in human development, but not relevant as a system today. I have seen some women in some cultures were they are *literally* servants of their husbands. Its simply disgusting and unacceptable. It doesn't mean its all well when a woman has no say totally dependent on her husband with chauvinistic laws that back up the abuses. A chauvinistic environment normally goes hand in hand with Homosexual persecution and does not add for men to get more excited sexually with each other. That is total nonsense.

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## LeBrok

> I very much doubt it. As for those of you who console your believes on some kind of Twin study prove...read this. Also to add further to my personal experience the only identical twins I know in my area happen to be both gay.
> 
> _For example, one twin in Bruder's study was missing some genes on particular chromosomes that indicated a risk of_ _leukemia__, which he indeed suffered. The other twin did not.
> 
> _https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...not-identical/


A great point. They should read studies pointing to the fact that identical twins are not 100 percent identical.

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## Angela

One thing I have learned on this forum, or better yet, what has been confirmed, is that most people are incapable of objectively looking at evidence or engaging in logical thought. That's why I increasingly don't bother to debate certain ideas with certain people. There's no point.

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## srdceleva

> One thing I have learned on this forum, or better yet, what has been confirmed, is that most people are incapable of objectively looking at evidence or engaging in logical thought. That's why I increasingly don't bother to debate certain ideas with certain people. There's no point.


It's amazing how if we don't agree with you guys it's us who are incapable of thinking objectively. All of my thoughts have been very objective and quite well reasoned. It isn't strange or not objective for me to believe that if a girl was raped by a man at a young age that one day she may grow up and have a mental block or fear of men. It's not unreasonable to think that maybe a boy who didn't grow up with a loving father, grows up and is looking for masculine affection. There is much more evidence to suggest this than any of those pseudo scientific studies. LeBrok tries to label me as someone who just denies science but I don't even know if he read the studies he sent me. One of them claimed homosexuals had different brain structure than straight men, even though in that study homosexuals with aids were used as the proxy for just "homosexuals." This is why the scientific community has never ever said being homosexual is for sure genetic as there is no study that has proven this.

@Lebrok 
Conservatives were not the ones enslaving people. The abolitionist movement in North America was a Christian one, this is a fact. The same Christians today who oppose homosexuality would also be the same people to protect them and help them if someone really was trying to persecute them just as they helped the slaves. There is a reason why Christianity has produced figures like mother Theresa and John Paul the second. Those people both staunchly opposed homosexuality and sexual immorality, yet no one would label them like you try to label us. 

It's clear to anyone who uses reason that a relationship that is the reason for all of human existence ( heterosexually) is not equal to a relationship which isnt. If there were no gays in the world anymore life would go on regularly, if there were no straights, civilization would cease to exist. 

You all will say a father sleeping with his daughter is nasty even if they are adults and not normal. Yet just 15 years ago people were saying the exact same thing about homosexuality. If anyone isn't being honest and objective it's you guys. Also Angela's argument about incest creating unhealthy babies is nonsense. This is the modern age where contraceptives and abortion are easier to get than candy. Also there are surgeries to prevent pregnancy. All of the same arguments for homosexuals can be used to support incest between adults. If you don't agree with this, your a biased non reasonable person and no one can discuss with you.

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## LeBrok

> It's amazing how if we don't agree with you guys it's us who are incapable of thinking objectively. All of my thoughts have been very objective and quite well reasoned. It isn't strange or not objective for me to believe that if a girl was raped by a man at a young age that one day she may grow up and have a mental block or fear of men. It's not unreasonable to think that maybe a boy who didn't grow up with a loving father, grows up and is looking for masculine affection. There is much more evidence to suggest this than any of those pseudo scientific studies. LeBrok tries to label me as someone who just denies science but I don't even know if he read the studies he sent me. One of them claimed homosexuals had different brain structure than straight men, even though in that study homosexuals with aids were used as the proxy for just "homosexuals." This is why the scientific community has never ever said being homosexual is for sure genetic as there is no study that has proven this.


 One of them? Just don't be shy and link it here. I'll be glad to have reasonable discussion with you. Ah, did you noticed other studies which came to same conclusions?




> @Lebrok 
> Conservatives were not the ones enslaving people. The abolitionist movement in North America was a Christian one, this is a fact.


 You mean there were Christians involved in it, great. Keep in mind that in Christian predominantly country almost all organizations will consist mostly of Christians. For the same reason mostly Christians had slaves in America.





> The same Christians today who oppose homosexuality would also be the same people to protect them and help them if someone really was trying to persecute them just as they helped the slaves. There is a reason why Christianity has produced figures like mother Theresa and John Paul the second. Those people both staunchly opposed homosexuality and sexual immorality, yet no one would label them like you try to label us.


 In free and inclusive world homosexuals don't need help from Christians or any other religious group. Just let them be and treat them like full value human beings. 




> It's clear to anyone who uses reason that a relationship that is the reason for all of human existence ( heterosexually) is not equal to a relationship which isnt. If there were no gays in the world anymore life would go on regularly, if there were no straights, civilization would cease to exist.


 Who knows, maybe with genetic engineering and designer babies there will be no gays in the future. They exist now though and there should be place for them to have good life like for anyone else. It also would be nice if whole world spoke one language, there wouldn't be a need to waste time and money to learn second or third one.




> You all will say a father sleeping with his daughter is nasty even if they are adults and not normal.


 Who is saying this?!!! There is higher risk of conceiving unhealthy baby, yes. Otherwise if daughter is of legal age, who will stop them and what is the harm for society or people involved? However, such partnerships or even partnerships between siblings are very unusual and will never become mainstream. There is something in us, an instinct, that makes siblings and parents unattractive.




> Yet just 15 years ago people were saying the exact same thing about homosexuality.


50 years ago women couldn't vote, 100 years ago there was only one democracy in the world. There are places even today that prohibits homosexuality, democracy and women voting. All of these old prohibitions were eventually dropped, in the West, on grounds of benefits or not being harmful to society, therefore these should be for people to freely chose. You might also check statistics and studies done to access adopted children and raised by gay couples. What do these studies say?

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## Maleth

> It's clear to anyone who uses reason that a relationship that is the reason for all of human existence ( heterosexually) is not equal to a relationship which isnt. If there were no gays in the world anymore life would go on regularly, if there were no straights, civilization would cease to exist.


 :Grin:  there is artificial insemination.....but joking apart one cannot base an argument on bogus ifs. The world is what it is. If your believes are based on any religious connotations as you are implying in this particular post then one can argue that god is perfect and that's how he wanted things to be, so why all the resistance to prove otherwise?

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## Northener

I don't see any rise. In the west is, at least since the sixties, LGTB more and more accepted. So that may be can considered as a rise. But imo that's no rise but something what once was 'hidden' can know be expressed openly.
In my opinion it's one of the biggest achievements of the enlightement that people (individuals) can express their sexuality in the way they want (as long as they don't harm others). I don't see any pro in restricted, hidden or frusty kind of sexual behaviour because of close tied social norms.
But this 'enlightement achievement' is never certain, because fundamentalist of different kind have one thing in common: they can't stand free (individual) expression....

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