# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Who were and are the Greeks and their DNA

## DejaVu

Who were and are the Greeks and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

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## willy

R1a G2a J2a E1

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## how yes no 2

ancient Greeks were people with amazingly high cultural and civilization development for the period in which they lived... 


in my current opinion in genetic sense they were of somewhat diverse origin:

Doric Greeks = J2b + I2a2+ R1a

Arcado-Cypriot Greek = E-V13, J2b and I2a2
Achean Greek = E-V13, J2b and I2a2 (same as Arcado-Cypriot)

Aeolic Greek = E-V13+ R1b
Attic Greek = Aeolic (E-V13, R1b) + some Doric (J2b + I2a2 +R1a)

Ionic Greek = Doric (J2b + I2a2) + some Aeolic(E-V13 + R1b)


as for ancient Macedonians it is hard to say whether they were Hellenic people, hellenized people or people with Hellenic elite, but since they have spread Hellenic culture throughout Asia, I mention them here too:

ancient Macedonians = R1a + J2b + I2a2, G2a (?)
thus mostly Doric like but with stronger R1a.... also Slavic (or Veneti) like but with stronger J2b...

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## Marianne

> R1a G2a J2a E1


G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.

Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b

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## iapetoc

I2a was never Greek, it is north Balkan haplogroup
it came south at peace times or small war times

I believe in roman times and also in byzantine or ottoman
it is known the history of Suliotet, probably it is not the only
when a revolt happened then every body has to move area
Kazantzakis wrote a book about that
Jesus Christ recrucified

J2 is the pelasgian the Κadmus

E-V13 is the Danaus the Achaic 

G2 has to do with Larissa-Thessaly and Makedonia only,

it has 3 explanations

1 is from Hettites (minor asia) and later Lydia cause Larissa Means Walls of stone in Hettites (Luwang)
meaning that some Hettites colonize the area and there is somewhere a mention for that

2 it is Turkish from the Ottoman empire from rapes, Yenicars etc all know of that times
or people that have stayed and did not exchanged

3 a big jew community that lived there until 1870 (today few)


Doric came from Cadmus they are J2
Atheneans before theseus J2 
Ionic Cretan J2
Achaic E-V13
Aeolians Epirotans E-V13
Aitolians J2
Arcadians J2 (Iapetus worshipers Japhet)
Messinians E-V13
south Thessaly Phthia J2 
north Thessaly larissa J2 (G ?)
west Thessaly E-V13
Pontian Greeks J2
Kappadokian Greeks J2
Magna Cregia J2 E-V13
Myssians E-V13
Argians E-V13


Ancient Makedonians Argites J2 (Dorians central Makedonia) Lokroi E-V13 (Aeolians west Makedonia)
clear R1a or G (kings) since they were kings Phillip from Karamos from Makednos from Hercules
also in a game it is mentioned that dorian lakedaimonians did not understand th Dorian Makedonians, and aeolians did very well understand them and were used as translators (???)

Mycenaeans probably first R1a (or G) 

after
the only invation less know is an invasion by Gallicians they reach even Delphi
their leader was Βρέννος Brennus at 281 BC
also the 4rth Crusade and the Latin and later Venician and Genoa ruling of Greek Areas may raise the R1b 
In Greek History is mentioned as Φραγκοκρατια (France rulers)

From Herodotus we know the 2 big Kings and Fathers,
Danaus brother of Egyptus from Libya
Kadmus brother of Phoenix from Levant (also brother of Europa)
from Thukididis we know that Atheneans spoke Thyrrsenian before Greek
also Minoans, Cyclades, and Thessaly 
as also Serbian and Bulgarian occuations raise the R1a,
for example R1b is bigger in crete that was under Venice,
and R1a in Thessaly and Makedonia were Dusan and Simeon conquered
the fact that I2a is bigger in the areas that were conquer by serbs and Bulgarians 
as R1a gives the suspicion that maybe both came same time (about 1000 +-250 AD)
or earlier at roman times but together

who gave Greeks the IE language is still on search 
1 hettites from minor asia
2 myceneans from north .......

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## Marianne

G2a is only 2% in Greece. It's really not common here Iapetoc. If you check this link http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml you can check the current % of haplogroups. 

Greeks didn't mix with the jews that used to live in Makedonia because jews tend to marry each other and not mix with the rest of the population in the country they reside in. Also the mix with Turks happened within Turkish grounds and not Greek. In Greece the mix was almost zero. Each rape doesn't lead to a kid. Many women killed themselves after the rapes and many kids would die at birth or a few months after. Also rapes don't exclusively happen when a woman is ovulating... If you want to see Greeks mixed with Turks go to the Aegean coast line in Turkey  :Laughing: . The 2% of G2 is more likely to come from the Hettites as you say rather than Jews and Turks. 

If you check the link I gave you and scroll down you will see the pies of haplogroups for each country. Turkey has many haplogroups that are absent in Greece, like L, N and Q and if you check this link http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...pegenetics.jpg you will see that Turks do not overlap with Greeks or any other Europeans when it comes to autosomal DNA

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## iapetoc

marianna although i dont believe so, I have to mention that,
the possibilty that is spread has a chance that is Turkish and didn't exchange,
but the concentration around Gods mountain Olymp probably has to do a immigration
I believe Hettites most,
there is a chance of Gauls also as I mentioned but they were only 10 000 men and most of them killed, maybe some survivors ?!!!

the fact that Greeks placed their Gods at Olymp as also the cyclopean structures I believe that must be Hettit before Lidyan (luwan) even before or same times with Mycenae

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## DejaVu

*Greece 
*I1 4%
I2a 10%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 12%
R1b 12%
G2a 3,5%
J2 25%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27%
T 3%

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## iapetoc

dejavu you said were and are

well 
that is are

not were

T is imported from around the world Diaspora and has nothing to do with 'were'
but only with today 'are'

also I came from North and has to do with today 'are' not the past 'were'

all I and T are imported 
and R is Invaders IE

if you cut I and T and (G?) then you have the 'were'

if G is minor asia Hettit Lydian (luwan) then has connection with were,
if it is Turkish then it is 'are'

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## how yes no 2

> all I and T are imported 
> and R is Invaders IE
> 
> if you cut I and T and (G?) then you have the 'were'


I do not believe that is really true.. 

R1a does not match spread of early Slavic tribes in Greece, but it exactly matches in shape ancient Macedonians... and is higher in that area than in neighboring Slavic countries...



not all I2a2 in Greece is recent arrival....
in ancient Greece was also some I2a2.. 
Illyrians did too have I2a2.... look at spread of I2a2 in Italy along Adriatic coast, that is due to Illyrians as historic Slavs never really settled that area... 

look at I2a2 in Asia minor, historic Slavs never settled there...
look at I2a2 in Greece and compare it with historic Slavic tribe settlements...except for Draguvites, all other Slavic tribes in Greece seems to have had less I2a2 than neighbouring Greeks as I2a2 is more elevated in areas that were Greek than in those that were settled by Slavs...










> if G is minor asia Hettit Lydian (luwan) then has connection with were,
> if it is Turkish then it is 'are'


that's the same G...modern Turks got it from previous inhabitants, who origin from Hittite...

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## Cambrius (The Red)

Haplogroups are fine to determine the influences of ancient migrations but autosomal DNA tells the full story as regards ancestry. You can have a very Nordic looking person testing into a Sub-Saharan haplogroup but does that make him Black African? I don't think so.

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## Marianne

What Cambria Red said is very true. Autosomal DNA is used to tell one's ancestry and Greek autosomal DNA studies prove that we are Europeans and of course cluster with them and not with Africans or Asians.

This sum of Dienekes is very interesting, although most of you have probably read it already, but it sums up that greek genetic legacy is is clearly detectible today (direct quote from the text) and that Greeks are Europeans. http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/greekadna/

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## how yes no 2

> This sum of Dienekes is very interesting, although most of you have probably read it already, but it sums up that greek genetic legacy is is clearly detectible today (direct quote from the text) *and that Greeks are Europeans*. http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/greekadna/


No one reasonable denies that Greeks are Europeans.
Europe is about shared culture, and culture of ancient Greece is one of the key corner stones of the European civilization.

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## Carlitos

Reading this thread has come to my mind the strength of the Mediterranean, this ancient land bathed by the sun and the sea, steeped in history to overflowing, it is wonderful to belong to it, the wind cool the percentage of blond hair and light eyes If we in the Mediterranean more connection to Africa or the Middle East is perfect wonderful, now are ours and the Mediterranean, we must not let pass by Northern European obsessions scrutinizing genetics to demonstrate that they are Neardhental, are we not going crazy and we are going crazy to the rest?, it feels to be awarded the term Europe and Europe is as much ours as theirs.

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## archaiocapilos

> G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.
> 
> Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b


J2a is common in some places like Peloponnese (around 15%) Aegean (15%) Asia Minor Greeks, Cretans etc. It is normally around 10% in other Greeks. J2b is always less than J2a except for western Greece (Epiros and Aetolia) and Thessaly where J2b is equal with J2a.E-V13 is widespread all around Greece.
G2a is above 5% in Thessaly, Aegean, Crete and Asia Minor while below 5% in Peloponnese,Macedonia,Epirus.There is no real structure in these haplogroups while R1b seems to correlate with southern Greeks and R1a and I2a2 with northern Greeks

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## archaiocapilos

> G2a and J2a are not common in Greece.
> 
> Greeks are mainly R1a, I2a, J2b, E1b1b and R1b


Marianne you keep saying that G2a and J2a are not common in Greece but that's not true. J2a is always more than J2b (except for Epirus) while G2a is around 5-6% not 2% as you say.
Greek y-dna is (Cretans are not included):
E1b1b = 24%
J2a = 13%
J2b = 6%
J1 = 3%
G2a = 6%
R1b = 16%
R1a = 12%
I = 15%
T(+L) = 4%
other(A,C,F,N,R2) = 1%

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## iapetoc

> J2a is common in some places like Peloponnese (around 15%) Aegean (15%) Asia Minor Greeks, Cretans etc. It is normally around 10% in other Greeks. J2b is always less than J2a except for western Greece (Epiros and Aetolia) and Thessaly where J2b is equal with J2a.E-V13 is widespread all around Greece.
> G2a is above 5% in Thessaly, Aegean, Crete and Asia Minor while below 5% in Peloponnese,Macedonia,Epirus.There is no real structure in these haplogroups while R1b seems to correlate with southern Greeks and R1a and I2a2 with northern Greeks


correct the J2a is connected with south and minor asian Pelasgians the J2b is connected with Cadmeians North pelasgians, 
the G is connected with Etruscan who habit in Thessaly and Makedonia Emathia (Mat Thea = Land of Gods) North pelasgians.

the R1b is connected with IE Greeks probably Hettit times, 
an imported R1b also from Romano-Celtic times especially in Aromani
R1a is connected with an ancient Driopes (Fathers of Greeks in Thessaly), and Thracians
a later R1a from slavic is rather small cause even south slavic have smaller R1a than Greeks
I2 probably was the people that inhabit before J G And R1 came,

in any case I am wrong you may correct me,

A cypriot imported E-v13 is mentioned in homer Εθιοπας, 
Ε-V13 probably came from Cyprus with Bronze at DANAUS times,
Danaus brother of Egypt.

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## archaiocapilos

> correct the J2a is connected with south and minor asian Pelasgians the J2b is connected with Cadmeians North pelasgians, 
> the G is connected with Etruscan who habit in Thessaly and Makedonia Emathia (Mat Thea = Land of Gods) North pelasgians.
> 
> the R1b is connected with IE Greeks probably Hettit times, 
> an imported R1b also from Romano-Celtic times especially in Aromani
> R1a is connected with an ancient Driopes (Fathers of Greeks in Thessaly), and Thracians
> a later R1a from slavic is rather small cause even south slavic have smaller R1a than Greeks
> I2 probably was the people that inhabit before J G And R1 came,
> 
> ...


Mythology says Belos (E-M78?) became the father of Aegyptos (E-V12?) and Danaos (E-V13?) It does rings a bell, doesn't it?

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## iapetoc

> Mythology says Belos (E-M78?) became the father of Aegyptos (E-V12?) and Danaos (E-V13?) It does rings a bell, doesn't it?


Especially the connection with Tyros,
the case of Alexander and Tyros is well known,
Alexander was allowed to enter city, but not the holy places, 
that means they accepted him as conqueror but not as one of them, Not as son of Hercules or Another Semi-deity, 

the other Belus the Babylonian we have well informations about the tomb and the Giants and Xerxes, hmmmm
So I am correct 
if you notice the wrote of Pausanias I am correct, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belus_%28Egyptian%29

Indeed some words are not same by accident 

the only that make me still wondering is a R1b that entered in Egypt, could that be connected with Belus? 
I mean a IndoEuropean tribe that entered both?

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## Alan

Haplogroup J2a is very typical for Groups of the Caucasus. especially North Caucasus ~25% and Kazbegi a district of Georgia 72%! It is also common in East European Countries like Ukraine.

Kazbegi and its people

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## iapetoc

> Mythology says Belos (E-M78?) became the father of Aegyptos (E-V12?) and Danaos (E-V13?) It does rings a bell, doesn't it?



indeed the E-v13 follows the way you just say 
so pelonese got bronze age before the north

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## iapetoc

> Haplogroup J2a is very typical for Groups of the Caucasus. especially North Caucasus ~25% and Kazbegi/Georgia 72%! It is also common in East European Countries like Ukraine.
> 
> Kazbegi and its people


J2a follows strange rules, in fact j2a does have one origin,

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## archaiocapilos

J2a propably originated in C/E Anatolia (Cappadocia & Armenia & Kurdistan) long before any known nation was formed. From there it spread in all directions (north into Caucasus, south into Mesopotamia and Levant, east into Iran and India and west into the Balkans and Italy).

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## iapetoc

> J2a propably originated in C/E Anatolia (Cappadocia & Armenia & Kurdistan) long before any known nation was formed. From there it spread in all directions (north into Caucasus, south into Mesopotamia and Levant, east into Iran and India and west into the Balkans and Italy).


hmmmm Cretans Hath-cretans or eteocretans have J2a8 wich is domestic to them, 
so minoans have J2a 

j2a is connected with with pre IE greeks some of J2a prove original Greek ancestry, j2a7 j2a8 
some of j2a prove anatolian ancestry 
j2 is connected with G2a3 in Pelasgians both in Greece and in Italy (etruscans) (the G raise around mount Olymp)

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## Alan

> J2a propably originated in C/E Anatolia (Cappadocia & Armenia & Kurdistan) long before any known nation was formed. From there it spread in all directions (north into Caucasus, south into Mesopotamia and Levant, east into Iran and India and west into the Balkans and Italy).


At least a point were we can agree.

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## Italian Norman

IMO the ancient Hellenes had these haplogroups:

Achaeans: E-V13, J2a
Dorians: J2a, J2b
Epirotes: E-V13, J2b
Makedonians: E-V13, I2a, J2a, J2b
Thracians: J2a, E-V13, I2a

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## Kari

Epirotes were mainly E-V13,J2a and R1b not J2b

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## TaktikatEMalet

We have very little ancient greek dna so far - only j2a, g2a and one j1? -

I predict dorians and epirotes to carry v13 and r1b (or j2a for epirotes) but let's wait for ancient dna

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## Ralphie Boy

There is also an unofficial R1b from Ambrakia of the Classical age.

EE4F3838-A4E1-472D-ADD7-81779C5979EF.jpeg

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## TaktikatEMalet

> There is also an unofficial R1b from Ambrakia of the Classical age.
> 
> EE4F3838-A4E1-472D-ADD7-81779C5979EF.jpeg


In 294 BC, after forty-three years of semi-autonomy under Macedonian suzerainty, Ambracia was given by the son of Cassander to Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who made it his capital, and adorned it with palace, temples and theatres. In the wars of Philip V of Macedon and the Epirotes against the Aetolian League (220–205) Ambracia passed from one alliance to the other, but ultimately joined the latter confederacy. During the struggle of the Aetolians against Rome, it stood a stubborn siege,[2] including the first known use of poison gas against the Romans' siege tunnels.[3]

Ambracia was captured and plundered by Marcus Fulvius Nobilior in 189 BC, after which it was declared by Rome a "free city", and gradually fell into insignificance.

The Molossians briefly sided with the anti-Roman Macedonian-Illyrian pact in the Third Macedonian War. After the Roman victory, a total of 150,000 Epirotes, mostly Molossians, were enslaved and sent to Italy, by decision of the Roman Senate. This decision is the only such act of the Roman senate and the largest, single, slave-hunting operation in Roman history. In the following years, Epirote slaves in Italy outnumbered slaves of other origins and the majority of slave marriages were between Epirotes.[27] In historiography, the decision of the senate has been the subject of much debate, as the two main anti-Roman powers of the time in that region, the Macedonians and the Illyrians, suffered few consequences in contrast to the Molossians in terms of punishment. Howard Hayes Scullard had proposed the most recognized theory in the past. He connected the measures taken by the Romans to Charops of Epirus, member of a rival tribe the Chaonians – a Roman ally – who in order to gain command of the region, pushed for the extermination of the Molossians.[28] This interpretation is based on the negative assessment of Charops, already in ancient sources, as Polybius calls him "the most savage and degenerate of all men".

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## Denis87

> IMO the ancient Hellenes had these haplogroups:
> 
> Achaeans: E-V13, J2a
> Dorians: J2a, J2b
> Epirotes: E-V13, J2b
> Makedonians: E-V13, I2a, J2a, J2b
> Thracians: J2a, E-V13, I2a


Is this from testing remains or is it your guess ?

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