# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Paleolithic & Mesolithic >  Video of the Loschbour man

## motzart

Yes they managed to catch him on a surveillance cam, no not really, great video about the individual though. Any french speakers care to translate?

Interesting that he is only 5 foot 3 inches tall, HGs are supposed to be tall! I guess he would have lived a little bit of a malnourished life considering the whole caveman thing.

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## Fire Haired14

This is from 2011, two years before the Laz study. I expected an interesting reconstruction like they made for La Brana-1. The picture of his skull provided by Laz was very archaic looking but in that 3d video you get to see the whole thing and it looks like a typical Caucasoid skull, just with non-typical heavy brow ridges. I have a Chemistry teacher from France who looks identical to the Loschbour skull and facial reconstruction.

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## motzart

Where can I see the reconstruction of La Brana?

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## Fire Haired14

> Where can I see the reconstruction of La Brana?


What, you haven't seen it yet?!!! He was all over the media and was famous in the last days of January.

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## motzart

Ah now that you post it I have seen it. The Y DNA C in Iberia is so confusing, especially given the autosomal mix.

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## MOESAN

> Yes they managed to catch him on a surveillance cam, no not really, great video about the individual though. Any french speakers care to translate?
> 
> Interesting that he is only 5 foot 3 inches tall, HGs are supposed to be tall! I guess he would have lived a little bit of a malnourished life considering the whole caveman thing.



thanks for video
The high stature of HGs is a popularbelief based upon the high statured attributed to 'Cro-magnon' (1m80at first, corrected to 1m74) – all the 'cromagnon' upperpaleolithicmen was very high, about this 1m74... the upper-mesolithic men ofCombe-Capelle (9000/7000 BC) types were less high statured, about1m65-1m67 and the means for mesolithic men in western Europe werebetween 1m60 and 1m65 (we have less yet : Teviec men and Mugemmen : 1m55/1m58, around 6000/5000 BC, so the HGs giants... thehigher statured during Mesolithic were, according to someones, theeastern Europe ones (I have not the means) ; the northern oneswere rather short, like the western ones (french scholars dixit,1977) - 
we still have to explain thisshortening for Cro-Magnon evident descendants in western Europe :a crossing with more 'mediterranean' people from East Mediterranea orNorth-Africa is very possible, but it seem it was limited enoughbefore plain Neolithic (even if evident for me) – a selection undernatural pressure linked to climate and food is very possible, alliedto drift (small populations as it seems), but drift here could haveplayed very early to can explain the general phenomenon ; theselittle men stayed very robust concerning bones, nevertheless – thequite evident crossings (Cr-Mn+C-C/Brünn) in some places did notcreate evident increase of stature, for I know... - the eastern ones(higher) were more on the 'capelloid-brünnoid' side - 
the old believing that short staturesalways came by South is wrong ; the first ancestors of'high-statured-mediterranen', southern people from East Mediterraneamore akin for crania to 'c-c/brünnoid' types, found in North Africaat those times, were about 1m68, not dwarves like Mugemians orTeviecians ! - even the « gracile » 'mediterraneans'associated to Cardial were about 1m62 -
concerning the crania (skull AND face),the *Loschbour* type is very definitely on the 'c-c/brünnoid'side and there is no reason to be astonished by his likeness topresent day people (a number of them) – the reconstitution« numeric » picture concerning body skeleton seems to mea bit too gracile -the distribution of « archaic » skullschanged with time but they never disappeared – their diminution in%s in current population is more the effect of the arriving ofdifferent 'europoids' than to their evolution in situ in Europe ;by the way, the 'cromagnoids' (more especially the westernmost ones)had lateral profiles very more « evolved » concerning thefrontal, spite their anteriority in the place ! -

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## bicicleur

> thanks for video
> The high stature of HGs is a popularbelief based upon the high statured attributed to 'Cro-magnon' (1m80at first, corrected to 1m74) – all the 'cromagnon' upperpaleolithicmen was very high, about this 1m74... the upper-mesolithic men ofCombe-Capelle (9000/7000 BC) types were less high statured, about1m65-1m67 and the means for mesolithic men in western Europe werebetween 1m60 and 1m65 (we have less yet : Teviec men and Mugemmen : 1m55/1m58, around 6000/5000 BC, so the HGs giants... thehigher statured during Mesolithic were, according to someones, theeastern Europe ones (I have not the means) ; the northern oneswere rather short, like the western ones (french scholars dixit,1977) - 
> we still have to explain thisshortening for Cro-Magnon evident descendants in western Europe :a crossing with more 'mediterranean' people from East Mediterranea orNorth-Africa is very possible, but it seem it was limited enoughbefore plain Neolithic (even if evident for me) – a selection undernatural pressure linked to climate and food is very possible, alliedto drift (small populations as it seems), but drift here could haveplayed very early to can explain the general phenomenon ; theselittle men stayed very robust concerning bones, nevertheless – thequite evident crossings (Cr-Mn+C-C/Brünn) in some places did notcreate evident increase of stature, for I know... - the eastern ones(higher) were more on the 'capelloid-brünnoid' side - 
> the old believing that short staturesalways came by South is wrong ; the first ancestors of'high-statured-mediterranen', southern people from East Mediterraneamore akin for crania to 'c-c/brünnoid' types, found in North Africaat those times, were about 1m68, not dwarves like Mugemians orTeviecians ! - even the « gracile » 'mediterraneans'associated to Cardial were about 1m62 -
> concerning the crania (skull AND face),the *Loschbour* type is very definitely on the 'c-c/brünnoid'side and there is no reason to be astonished by his likeness topresent day people (a number of them) – the reconstitution« numeric » picture concerning body skeleton seems to mea bit too gracile -the distribution of « archaic » skullschanged with time but they never disappeared – their diminution in%s in current population is more the effect of the arriving ofdifferent 'europoids' than to their evolution in situ in Europe ;by the way, the 'cromagnoids' (more especially the westernmost ones)had lateral profiles very more « evolved » concerning thefrontal, spite their anteriority in the place ! -


from the skelletons found near the grotte de spy - meuse valley Belgium :

Neanderthals 35000 years old were 1m55 , Cro Magnons 30000 year old were 1m80

spy 027 - kopie.JPG

interbreeding between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon in Europe is questioned, it probably happened elsewhere before entry of Cro Magnon into Europe
stature depends on DNA but also on good health people growing up in times of food shortage are shorter
Loschbourg was I2a1b
I1 was probably rather tall judging from the posture of modern Scandinavians
I'd think all haplogroup I were relatively tall

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## MOESAN

> from the skelletons found near the grotte de spy - meuse valley Belgium :
> 
> Neanderthals 35000 years old were 1m55 , Cro Magnons 30000 year old were 1m80
> 
> spy 027 - kopie.JPG
> 
> interbreeding between Neanderthal and Cro Magnon in Europe is questioned, it probably happened elsewhere before entry of Cro Magnon into Europe
> stature depends on DNA but also on good health people growing up in times of food shortage are shorter
> Loschbourg was I2a1b
> ...


I was talking about 'cro-magnon' descendants and the complex 'brünn-combe-capelle' of mesolithic, not about 'Neanderthal' people (I know very little about them, as a lot of people indeed - 
stature is linked to food and life conditions but ALSO to lack of body exercice (the today growth of people is linked to the two, I think: in the last case, the growing concerns more the vertical growth than the horizontal one, ans skeletons and muscles are les robust - but selection can occur, with genetical definetively acquired stature aside the only "during life post natal" phenotypical stature linked to life conditions (sorry for my imaginative english !)

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