# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  23andme and AncestryDNA, post your Southern European results

## Twilight

Good morning, I was comparing my 23andme and Ancestry.com results and my Mediterranean ancestry seems really similar on both sites. I'm curious to see if this is a common theme or if my eyes are deceiving me. :) 


*23andme*

Iberian:0.6
Italian: 0.3
Balkans:0
Broadly Southern European: 2.4

*AncestryDNA*

Iberian:>1%
Italy/Greece:2%

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## mwauthy

Ancestry DNA:
Iberian Peninsula 25%
Italy/Greece 3%

23andMe:
Southern European 10.8%
Iberian 0.8%
Sardinian 0.7%
Italian 0.3%
Broadly Southern European 9%

Discrepancy = 17.2%

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## I1a3_Young

They both use the Sorenson lab (23andMe uses the same chip then adds mtdna for finding a haplo).

If they are both recent tests then the differences should only be in the interpretation of the exact same data.

It seems like most "british isles" people have 1-3% "Iberian" and 1-3% "Italian" without having any ancestors from those places. Meaning that those were absorbed in to "british isles" previously. The Iberian component seems to come from the pre-Celtic inhabitants or perhaps even the Celts brought it. The Italian is more puzzling. I don't think it correlates to the Romans, but perhaps some component of near eastern farmer base.

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## mwauthy

I could be wrong but I think Ancestry includes South Western France into their Iberian Peninsula category. DNA Land correctly labels South Western France as Southwestern Europe. On the contrary I think that 23andMe, FTDNA and Natgeo differentiate between Southwestern France and the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe. I still don't understand how many of these companies create an overlapping category of Western Europe to describe someone from Berlin and Marseille.

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## Twilight

> They both use the Sorenson lab (23andMe uses the same chip then adds mtdna for finding a haplo).
> 
> If they are both recent tests then the differences should only be in the interpretation of the exact same data.
> 
> It seems like most "british isles" people have 1-3% "Iberian" and 1-3% "Italian" without having any ancestors from those places. Meaning that those were absorbed in to "british isles" previously. The Iberian component seems to come from the pre-Celtic inhabitants or perhaps even the Celts brought it. The Italian is more puzzling. I don't think it correlates to the Romans, but perhaps some component of near eastern farmer base.


Probably, been thinking along those lines also, either genetically unidentifiable Balkan or Middle Eastern. 


Genetic Ydna clues: I don't think R1A-Z93 has a noticeable presence in England. However genetically I supposed the best clue to the "Middleeastern farmer theory" is R1b-Z2103 Anatolian Branch witch has its presence in Britain but I could be wrong, just educated guessing.
How do you think both R1b-Z2103 ended up in England? 

Roman Documents: As far as paper trail goes, do you know where specifically the Romans got their Merchants/Farmers?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...reco-Anatolian

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## Twilight

> They both use the Sorenson lab (23andMe uses the same chip then adds mtdna for finding a haplo).
> 
> If they are both recent tests then the differences should only be in the interpretation of the exact same data.
> 
> It seems like most "british isles" people have 1-3% "Iberian" and 1-3% "Italian" without having any ancestors from those places. Meaning that those were absorbed in to "british isles" previously. The Iberian component seems to come from the pre-Celtic inhabitants or perhaps even the Celts brought it. The Italian is more puzzling. I don't think it correlates to the Romans, but perhaps some component of near eastern farmer base.


If you put it that way, Roman auxiliaries were rewarded some farmland if they survived into retirement and apparently according to the documentary "Meet the Romans" the soldiers were pretty good catches for local woman. The regiment's names tend to be Celtic, Germanic, Iberian and Thracian/Illyrian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma...ies_in_Britain

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## Salento

-Southern European 87.1%-
Italian 68.2%
Balkan 8.09%
Broadly Southern European 10.0%

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## Angela

See:


Reconstruction of Roman settler in Wales. Maybe he came from Campania or Basilicata.



He looks like a grim version of a Mark Ruffalo type. (He really should lose weight; he used to be so handsome. :))

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## Apsurdistan

Ancestry results 18% Italy/Greece.

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## Stuvanè

Mine 23andme (from eastern Emilia and Romagna):

Southern European 83.3%
- Italian 54.6%
- Balkan 6.5%
- Iberian 6.0%
- Sardinian 0.3%
- Broadly Southern European 16.0%

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## Apsurdistan

That Roman Wales guy bares a striking resemblance to this Bosnian MMA fighter
Attachment 8834

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## clarbg

AncestryDNA:

Italy/Greece 5%
Iberian Peninsula 2%

23andme: 

Iberian 0.3%
Broady Southern European 0.5%

Based on family stories, I expected to get at least SOME Italian, Balkan or Jewish on 23andme (which imo is more accurate for Euros), but nope. Then again, I can't find any Middle Eastern or Southern European in my family tree.

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## AdeoF

Here is mine from ancestry.com (Both sides of the family is from Galicia/Spain)
Iberian Peninsula 36%
Italy/Greece 36%

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## Bosnian Boss

23andMe only:

Balkan 54.1%
Broadly Southern European 8.7%

I still don't see how the very diverse Balkan population can be simply labeled "Southern European"  :Rolleyes:

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## brg12007

Attachment 9267

here are my results 52% med, 54% if the euro jewish counts

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## felipeschmidt25

23andme:
10.1% Italian 
26.8% Broadly Southern european 
6.2% Iberian
I m half North italian, 1/8 Portuguese and 1/4 German(1/16 ashkenazi, 1/16 native)

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## Coolheaded

Here are my 23andMe scores.
I would NOT recommend this site for testing and feel that they need much work to refine their results.
Italian 0.4%
Balkan 0.2%
Iberian 0.1%
Broadly Southern European 3.4%

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## Angela

> Here are my 23andMe scores.
> I would NOT recommend this site for testing and feel that they need much work to refine their results.
> Italian 0.4%
> Balkan 0.2%
> Iberian 0.1%
> Broadly Southern European 3.4%


I hate to break it to you, but you have a lot more "southern" ancestry than that, if that's what's bothering you.

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## Coolheaded

> I hate to break it to you, but you have a lot more "southern" ancestry than that, if that's what's bothering you.


Actually, my post was complaining that my MASSIVE Italian component, was not detected by 23andMe.
I have no issues with southern euro ancestry, and in a nutshell I'm strongly plotting Italian or mainland Greek on an autosomal level.
23andMe didn't capture any of my quite strong Roman ancestral component and gave me me "Italian 0.4%."
I generally plot in Abruzzo or mainland Greece on accurate calculators like MDLP K16.
Not sure you were reading my post as I intended.
I'm a new poster so perhaps it's reasonable to infer that I have some issues with Southern Euros.
I did however mention in the introductions forums that I have disdain for the northern vs southern Euro flame wars on many childish forums.
I'm disappointed at 23andMe for FAILING to accurately detect my Italian ancestry.
I do NOT recommend 23andMe and stand strongly by my post.

MDLP K16.1
Italian (Abruzzo)
4.51

2
Greek (Macedonia)
5.21

3
Greek (Greece)
5.7

4
Greek (Peloponnes)
5.99

5
Italian (SouthItaly)
6.07

6
Jew (Ashkenazi)
6.32

7
Sicilian (Sicily)
6.57

8
Greek (Athens)
6.86

9
Jew (Ashkenazim)
7.18

10
Albanian (Albania)
7.27



*MDLP K23b*


1
Sicilian_Siracusa ( )
4.93

2
Italian_Abruzzo ( )
5.5

3
Greek_Northwest ( )
5.68

4
Sicilian_West ( )
5.69

5
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
5.81

6
Sicilian_Agrigento ( )
5.96

7
Kosovar ( )
6.48

8
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
6.61

9
Ashkenazi_Jew ( )
6.64

10
Greek_Thessaly ( )
7.2

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## Angela

> Actually, my post was complaining that my MASSIVE Italian component, was not detected by 23andMe.
> I have no issues with southern euro ancestry, and in a nutshell I'm strongly plotting Italian or mainland Greek on an autosomal level.
> 23andMe didn't capture any of my quite strong Roman ancestral component and gave me me "Italian 0.4%."
> I generally plot in Abruzzo or mainland Greece on accurate calculators like MDLP K16.
> Not sure you were reading my post as I intended.
> I'm a new poster so perhaps it's reasonable to infer that I have some issues with Southern Euros.
> I did however mention in the introductions forums that I have disdain for the northern vs southern Euro flame wars on many childish forums.
> I'm disappointed at 23andMe for FAILING to accurately detect my Italian ancestry.
> I do NOT recommend 23andMe and stand strongly by my post.
> ...


My apologies for assuming. In my defense, we still get refugees from racist anthrofora, although it has slowed down considerably. 

Perhaps it was up thread, but I didn't see the entire 23andme run down. Could you post or re-post it. I ask because I've never seen a half Italian get virtually no Italian in 23andme.

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## Coolheaded

> My apologies for assuming. In my defense, we still get refugees from racist anthrofora, although it has slowed down considerably. 
> 
> Perhaps it was up thread, but I didn't see the entire 23andme run down. Could you post or re-post it. I ask because I've never seen a half Italian get virtually no Italian in 23andme.


Never been on anthrofora.
I have posted on the Apricity, and deeply loathe that horrid site.
I'm indeed more or less half Italian, from northern Italy dating to the Roman Era. 
23andMe (and others) ascribe that to the "Ashkenazi Jewish" ethnic group and are disregardful of my Italian roots.
I attribute that to middle eastern politics and religious divisiveness.
I understand that ALL autosomal testing sites play this game.
I don't like it at all.
I have to go to an amateurish site, (GEDmatch) to load my raw data, to try and get some reasonable computations of my ACTUAL ethnic breakdown.
My Italian scores on most tests exceed many people that are "full Italians" on sites like 23andMe. 

Here is my data from 23andMe, Angela.
Ashkenazi Jewish 73.5%
British and Irish (UK) 11.8%
Italian 0.4%
Balkan 0.2%
Iberian 0.1%
Broadly North West European 5.4%
Broadly southern European 3.4%
Broadly European 2.7%

West Asian and North African 2.2%
North African/Arabian 0.9%
Broadly west Asian and North African 1.0%
Unassigned 0.3%

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## Angela

> Never been on anthrofora.
> I have posted on the Apricity, and deeply loathe that horrid site.
> I'm indeed more or less half Italian, from northern Italy dating to the Roman Era. 
> 23andMe (and others) ascribe that to the "Ashkenazi Jewish" ethnic group and are disregardful of my Italian roots.
> I attribute that to middle eastern politics and religious divisiveness.
> I understand that ALL autosomal testing sites play this game.
> I don't like it at all.
> I have to go to an amateurish site, (GEDmatch) to load my raw data, to try and get some reasonable computations of my ACTUAL ethnic breakdown.
> My Italian scores on most tests exceed many people that are "full Italians" on sites like 23andMe. 
> ...


Oh dear, my instincts are indeed infallible.

If 23andme says you're close to 75% Ashkenazi, then that's what you are. You can't fool the algorithm about that. You'll have a couple of thousand Ashkenazi cousins to prove it. Southern Italians and Sicilians have virtually none. 

End of story.

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## davef

> Never been on anthrofora.
> I have posted on the Apricity, and deeply loathe that horrid site.
> I'm indeed more or less half Italian, from northern Italy dating to the Roman Era. 
> 23andMe (and others) ascribe that to the "Ashkenazi Jewish" ethnic group and are disregardful of my Italian roots.
> I attribute that to middle eastern politics and religious divisiveness.
> I understand that ALL autosomal testing sites play this game.
> I don't like it at all.
> I have to go to an amateurish site, (GEDmatch) to load my raw data, to try and get some reasonable computations of my ACTUAL ethnic breakdown.
> My Italian scores on most tests exceed many people that are "full Italians" on sites like 23andMe. 
> ...


The calculators you did on gedmatch guessed you as italian due to how you scored against Italians, not due to having actual italian ancestry. You should read the article in this thread, it covers ashkenazi genetics quite well. 

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Ashkenazi-Jews

And scoring that low Italian implies you don't have much or any italian ancestry, but western Jews do have a lot of Southern Europe like admixture.

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## Coolheaded

> Oh dear, my instincts are indeed infallible.
> 
> If 23andme says you're close to 75% Ashkenazi, then that's what you are. You can't fool the algorithm about that. You'll have a couple of thousand Ashkenazi cousins to prove it. Southern Italians and Sicilians have virtually none. 
> 
> End of story.


Of course I'm PART (3/4) Ashkenazi Jewish.

But that crude ethnic designation is in reality roughly 50% Canaanite (Israelite) and 50% what today you call "Northern Italian."
Basically what you call a "Sicilian" is roughly the same 50% Canaanite (Phoenician ) and 50% what today you call "Northern Italian."
You have again misinterpreted my post in a way that was not intended.
Somewhat rudely and unnecessarily so.
I never said I wasn't Ashkenazi, but I did mention that we're basically half Italian on or maternal lines.
MOST Jews are very hostile to me even mentioning this, and pretty much EVERY Italian I have discussed this with has been closed-minded and scornful of these FACTS.
Matters not to me Angela, you can interrupt my post anyway you want.
I was actually 100% correct and straight forward, and you insinuated that I'm denying being Ashkenazi, when I did no such thing.
I never denied my family or roots and all I did was factually state that I have a very large amount of Roman ancestry.
You think I'm trying to "fool" people?
You really are insulting me, and I have NOTHING to gain as a Jewish person by honestly embracing my Roman heritage, both sides of the equation; Jews and Italians are haters on me for it.
I'm trying to talk population genetics and strictly stick to data and facts, you're injecting ethnic divisiveness.

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## Angela

> Of course I'm PART (3/4) Ashkenazi Jewish.
> 
> But that crude ethnic designation is in reality roughly 50% Canaanite (Israelite) and 50% what today you call "Northern Italian."
> Basically what you call a "Sicilian" is roughly the same 50% Canaanite (Phoenician ) and 50% what today you call "Northern Italian."
> You have again misinterpreted my post in a way that was not intended.
> Somewhat rudely and unnecessarily so.
> I never said I wasn't Ashkenazi, but I did mention that we're basically half Italian on or maternal lines.
> MOST Jews are very hostile to me even mentioning this, and pretty much EVERY Italian I have discussed this with has been closed-minded and scornful of these FACTS.
> Matters not to me Angela, you can interrupt my post anyway you want.
> ...


No one yet knows what precise European groups helped to create the Ashkenazi genome. Your certainty is totally misplaced. 

You also clearly don't understand how modern dna testing works. 23andme and every other testing company out there is comparing your genome to those of other modern people. In doing that, 23andme correctly discovered that you're 75% Ashkenazi. 

When someone comes up with a good calculator based on a classical era Judean genome and some southern European ancient samples from proximate time periods, you and everyone else will be able to see how the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis took place. Until then neither you nor anyone else knows.

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## Angela

Don't let the door hit you in the rear on your way out you freaking nutcase. 

You don't have a clue who I am or what I'm about. Make up your baseless, fairy stories about someone else.

Can I call 'em or can I call 'em? My instincts are vindicated once again.

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## Sile

> Actually, my post was complaining that my MASSIVE Italian component, was not detected by 23andMe.
> I have no issues with southern euro ancestry, and in a nutshell I'm strongly plotting Italian or mainland Greek on an autosomal level.
> 23andMe didn't capture any of my quite strong Roman ancestral component and gave me me "Italian 0.4%."
> I generally plot in Abruzzo or mainland Greece on accurate calculators like MDLP K16.
> Not sure you were reading my post as I intended.
> I'm a new poster so perhaps it's reasonable to infer that I have some issues with Southern Euros.
> I did however mention in the introductions forums that I have disdain for the northern vs southern Euro flame wars on many childish forums.
> I'm disappointed at 23andMe for FAILING to accurately detect my Italian ancestry.
> I do NOT recommend 23andMe and stand strongly by my post.
> ...


I do not know why you concern yourself with 23andme ancestry breakdown when we all know they are in error ............my father, my son and myself have always ranged between 21 to 33% in italian even though we have 5 dots for italian and no dots elsewhere

23andme has no idea about Audna mixture.....they are only slightly better than AncestryDNA and equal to Ftdna my origins

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## davef

You get 5 dots in spite of scoring 20-30 something italian because you match enough of the longer identical by descent sections with other Italians in the database. In total they make up 30 percent or less of your DNA.

I read about IBD through wiki, so my understanding might not be sufficient

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## Angela

> You get 5 dots in spite of scoring 20-30 something italian because you match enough of the longer identical by descent sections with other Italians in the database. In total they make up 30 percent or less of your DNA.
> 
> I read about IBD through wiki, so my understanding might not be sufficient


The reality is that all the Southern European that Sile gets is also "Italian". The dots are because he happens to have "relatives" in the 23andme "universe".

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## Sile

> The reality is that all the Southern European that Sile gets is also "Italian". The dots are because he happens to have "relatives" in the 23andme "universe".


agree.....here they are
Italy (110)
Has 1+ grandparents (110)
Has 2+ grandparents (82)
Has 3+ grandparents (46)
Has 4 grandparents (39) .......main paternal , surname cocchetto ...100% european...G-L497 ydna, T1a1 mtdna ..........my paternal grandfather was mtdna T1a1e
.
.
.
Germany (19)
Has 1+ grandparents (19)
Has 2+ grandparents (5)
Has 3+ grandparents (3)
Has 4 grandparents (2) ...........surname Thran .....european 100% ..........mtdna U2e1a .....married into paternal family line circa 1700
.
.
.
Austria (11)
Has 1+ grandparents (11)
Has 2+ grandparents (5)
Has 3+ grandparents (2)
Has 4 grandparents (1) ..................surname yautz .......99% european...G-L30 ydna .......married into my paternal side 
.
.
.
United Kingdom (22)
Has 1+ grandparents (22)
Has 2+ grandparents (16)
Has 3+ grandparents (9)
Has 4 grandparents (8) ................surname Hinds ...related to surname Hintz from Padoa Italy ....who married into Paternal line from Morgano Veneto circa 1800
.
.
Sweden (7)
Has 1+ grandparents (7)
Has 2+ grandparents (3)
Has 3+ grandparents (1)
Has 4 grandparents (1) ........surname Tang ..........100% european ,....I-P109 ydna ...same marker as my great grandfather maternal side .....also share with surname Frasson ...via paternal ..K1c2 mtdna .....................................from Venice proper
.
.
France is Zero
USA is 193..........

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## davef

> The reality is that all the Southern European that Sile gets is also "Italian". The dots are because he happens to have "relatives" in the 23andme "universe".


say a French person gets 1 star for France, would he score five stars if his sibling is added (and no other French person is added by then)?

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## Salento

> say a French person gets 1 star for France, would he score five stars if his sibling is added (and no other French person is added by then)?


A few days ago I added the AncestryDNA raw data to 23andme for free (was a 24h only offer). I created a new 23 account.
They gave me 2 dots for Italy. 
Got 1 dot on the original 23andme results.
I think that by duplicating my DNA-data caused the extra dot in the new results, but in the original I still have 1 dot.
The other dots didn’t change.
I have also found 1 “Close Family to Second Cousins”. lol lol ( I’m my own relative).

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## davef

Uh, ok. Shouldn't they like, avoid comparing close relatives? Wasn't there a cousin matcher which showed who you actually share ibd with? Why replace it with this stupid dot thing? 

lame

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## Salento

> Uh, ok. Shouldn't they like, avoid comparing close relatives? Wasn't there a cousin matcher which showed who you actually share ibd with? Why replace it with this stupid dot thing? 
> 
> lame


I bet, that if I buy a new 23andme kit, and create again a new account, I’ll get 3 dots for Italy.
The more matches on their system, the more dots you get.
(Clones Included, for now) :)
——————
Changing Topic for a sec, About a previous post:
If scoring 0.4% Italian is considered to be a “Massive Amount” then by applying this logic Angela (and us) could easily be the Clone of 
“Agrippina”: 
Related to Emperor Augustus (Pax Augusta), daughter of Germanicus (Sile), sister of Emp. Caligula (Salento), wife of Emp. Claudius (Jovialis), and mother of Emp. Nero (Davef). lol  
(All in good fun) :)

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## davef

Lol! I'm Nero. 

Wow, lol so you can go up to five if you keep spamming clones into the system. So five dots means you have at least five matches in their db, but why be vague? They could've returned the number, assuming that's the case

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## Salento

> Lol! I'm Nero. 
> 
> Wow, lol so you can go up to five if you keep spamming clones into the system. So five dots means you have at least five matches in their db, but why be vague? They could've returned the number, assuming that's the case


We already know that the dots calculation variables favor an incremental value (numbers) on DNA matches, and lower interest value to the ancestry %, regardless of the % amount.
I don’t know specifically if 5 close relatives will result in 5 dots, but will surely help.

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## Angela

> I bet, that if I buy a new 23andme kit, and create again a new account, I’ll get 3 dots for Italy.
> The more matches on their system, the more dots you get.
> (Clones Included, for now) :)
> ——————
> Changing Topic for a sec, About a previous post:
> If scoring 0.4% Italian is considered to be a “Massive Amount” then by applying this logic Angela (and us) could easily be the Clone of 
> “Agrippina”: 
> Related to Emperor Augustus (Pax Augusta), daughter of Germanicus (Sile), sister of Emp. Caligula (Salento), wife of Emp. Claudius (Jovialis), and mother of Emp. Nero (Davef). lol  
> (All in good fun) :)


Decided to add that "and us" did you?

For the record, my children adore me, Salento. :)

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## Sizzles

Ancestry
36% southern euro Sicily
26% east euro Croatian north 
Italy, bosnia Herzegovina
4% Caucasus
2% middle east

23&me
43.4% balkan Croatia
14.5% italy
10.7% broadly southern euro
2.1% eastern euro slovenia

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## New Englander

*Total:* 58.30% 

*Italian:* 36.40%
*Broadly Southern European:* 20.00%
*Balkan:* 1.90%

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## AdeoF

I already posted mine in a different post. But I go 3 dots for Spain and 1 dot for Portugal. I find it odd that Sile has 5 dots for Italy

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## bigsnake49

AncestryDNA results: 47%Italian/Greek, 31%East European, 19% Caucasus. About what I expected. My folks have lived in Thrace, first Eastern Thrace then Western Thrace for a long time.

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## Sile

> I already posted mine in a different post. But I go 3 dots for Spain and 1 dot for Portugal. I find it odd that Sile has 5 dots for Italy


Until the time that 23andme place more interest and data into the genetics of the alpine peoples , they will fail, they care little for the alps and any admixture in that area..............I see the same flaws for the Pyrenees area

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## Dibran

> AncestryDNA results: 47%Italian/Greek, 31%East European, 19% Caucasus. About what I expected. My folks have lived in Thrace, first Eastern Thrace then Western Thrace for a long time.


Try uploading your AncestryDNA file to https://ytree.morleydna.com/extractFromAutosomal

They are usually quite accurate in the prediction of your paternal YDNA. 9 times out of 10 they are correct in terminal placement. Almost 100 percent of the time in general placement. R1a/I2a tend to be more common in Thrace given Slavic settlements. Let us know what you get!

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## bigsnake49

> Try uploading your AncestryDNA file to MorleyDNA
> 
> They are usually quite accurate in the prediction of your paternal YDNA. 9 times out of 10 they are correct in terminal placement. Almost 100 percent of the time in general placement. R1a/I2a tend to be more common in Thrace given Slavic settlements. Let us know what you get!


How am I supposed to read the results?
From the most likely box on the lefthand side: R1b1a2a1a2a1b3~2 *R1b-L421 (R1b-L433, R1b-L88).* That's with the experimental tree:
Using ISOGG tree: _R1b-L23 (R1b-L49, R1b-L150)_

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## Dibran

> How am I supposed to read the results?
> From the most likely box on the lefthand side: R1b1a2a1a2a1b3~2 *R1b-L421 (R1b-L433, R1b-L88).* That's with the experimental tree:
> Using ISOGG tree: _R1b-L23 (R1b-L49, R1b-L150)_


R1b-L23 is very common in the Southern Balkans. Likely tied to Dorians in your case. Its very common in Albanians Greeks and Vlachs. You would need to test further to see what clusters you belong to. It would give an idea on recent ancestry, and possibly more specific clade assignment. L23 was discovered in Vucedol sample bronze age Balkans. Seems to have a strong prominence in Eastern Thrace given what you mentioned above.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

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## bigsnake49

> R1b-L23 is very common in the Southern Balkans. Likely tied to Dorians in your case. Its very common in Albanians Greeks and Vlachs. You would need to test further to see what clusters you belong to. It would give an idea on recent ancestry, and possibly more specific clade assignment. L23 was discovered in Vucedol sample bronze age Balkans. Seems to have a strong prominence in Eastern Thrace given what you mentioned above.


Thanks, it is as it should be. Neolithic farmers settling in fertile land and staying there through the centuries. I am having a living DNA test done and we'll see what it says.

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## Dibran

> Thanks, it is as it should be. Neolithic farmers settling in fertile land and staying there through the centuries. I am having a living DNA test done and we'll see what it says.


While we Albanians and Greeks have much Neolithic autosomal ancestry, YDNA R1a/R1b is due to indo european arrival from the steppe. R1b-L23 is believed to be responsible for carrying the Proto-Greek and Proto-Albanian languages to the Balkans. Let us know what you get with LivingDNA! I took the test as well. It should give a more downstream YDNA.

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## bigsnake49

What do these admixtures mean? and when did these mixtures happen? In ancient or more recent times?

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## Dibran

> What do these admixtures mean? and when did these mixtures happen? In ancient or more recent times?


It’s too hard to really tell. I recommend going to the genetics papers thread to get a wider understanding of autosomal population genetics.

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## Eochaidh

My 23andMe results just came in and they got my Italian grandfather somewhat better than the others. His mother was from Frosinone and his father was from L'Aquila. My other grandparents were 2 Irish and 1 West Jersey Quaker. West Jersey was the name of the first Quaker colony in the Delaware Valley and distinct from William Penn's colony. AncestryDNA has separate Genetic Communities for them and they generally were poor people from the Pennine Mountain area of northwest England in the west Yorkshire area. My mtDNA is H4a1a4b which points to Scandinavia and Yorkshire. 

I used the Timeline section to group Italian and French & German for him.

Comparison.JPG

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## Angela

> My 23andMe results just came in and they got my Italian grandfather somewhat better than the others. His mother was from Frosinone and his father was from L'Aquila. My other grandparents were 2 Irish and 1 West Jersey Quaker. West Jersey was the name of the first Quaker colony in the Delaware Valley and distinct from William Penn's colony. AncestryDNA has separate Genetic Communities for them and they generally were poor people from the Pennine Mountain area of northwest England in the west Yorkshire area. My mtDNA is H4a1a4b which points to Scandinavia and Yorkshire. 
> 
> I used the Timeline section to group Italian and French & German for him.
> 
> Attachment 10306


Well, if you add the Italian, Broadly Southern European, and Broadly European together, you get 16%. Some of the northwest European is from him too, so, yes, it's pretty close, especially because it's one grandparent. 

The others are terrible.

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## bigsnake49

I got my results from livingDNA, here they are:

Europe East 60.9%
Europe South 14.4%
Europe North and West 9.9%
GB & Ireland 5.8%
Unassigned 6.2%
Near East 2.8%
Levant 1.7%

Y-Haplogroup R-M269, no further subclade
MtDNA Haplogroup U5a1b

To say I am surprised is an understatement. I will export the autosomal and import it in the GEDMatch.

Eurogenes V2 K15 Results:
*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
21.22

2
Atlantic
15.92

3
Baltic
15.07

4
West_Med
14.92

5
West_Asian
13.41

6
North_Sea
8.19

7
Eastern_Euro
8.01

8
Red_Sea
1.42

9
Sub-Saharan
0.84

10
South_Asian
0.58

11
Oceanian
0.38

12
Amerindian
0.03

13
Northeast_African
0.02

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## Angela

> I got my results from livingDNA: here they are:
> 
> Europe East 60.9%
> Europe South 14.4%
> Europe North and West 9.9%
> GB & Ireland 5.8%
> Unassigned 6.2%
> Near East 2.8%
> Levant 1.7%
> ...


The results are probably typical for that company for a Greek. 

You'll be able to tell once you run the gedmatch calculators.

I would suggest that you take 23andme. At least they'll probably figure out that you're from the Balkans somewhere.

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## leperrine

Haplogroup J2a1h2a1 L70 [L397, L398]

Here's mine from AncestryDNA. 

Europe West: 41
Ireland/Scotland/Wales: 25
Great Britain: 18
Scandinavia: 8
Iberian Peninsula: 4
Europe East: 2
Europe South: 1
Middle East: <1

GEDMatch 

Eurogenes V2 K15

North_Sea: 41.42
Atlantic: 25.27
West_Med: 9.76
Baltic: 8.58
Eastern_Euro: 7.66
West_Asian: 4.08
Red_Sea: 1.37

Population Sharing

Orcadian: 4.54
North_Dutch: 5.86
West_Norwegian: 5.9
Southwest_English: 6.56
West_Scottish: 6.74
Norwegian: 6.85
Southeast_English: 6.93
Danish: 7.17
Irish: 7.32
Swedish: 8.62
West_German: 8.84
North_German: 9.58
South_Dutch: 10.8
North_Swedish: 12.37
French: 13.6
East_German: 16.3
Southwest_Finnish: 18.94
Hungarian: 20.45
Spanish_Galicia: 20.86
Austrian: 21.2



Eurogenes K36

Basque: 3.90
Central_Euro: 9.40
East_Balkan% 0.86
East_Central_Euro: 5.55
Eastern_Euro: 2.00
Fennoscandian: 6.83
French: 9.49
Iberian: 13.03 
Italian: 6.67 
North_Atlantic: 17.45
North_Caucasian: 3.81
North_Sea: 20.56
West_Med: 0.43



MDLP K16 Modern

Neolithic: 30.83
NorthEastEuropean: 26.62
Steppe: 23.11
Caucasian: 19.23

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## bigsnake49

> The results are probably typical for that company for a Greek. 
> 
> You'll be able to tell once you run the gedmatch calculators.
> 
> I would suggest that you take 23andme. At least they'll probably figure out that you're from the Balkans somewhere.


My GEDMatch K15 calculator comparison:

Population
Ancestry
LivingDNA

North_Sea
6.81
8.19

Atlantic
17.38
15.92

Baltic
13.14
15.07

Eastern_Euro
10.51
8.01

West_Med
15.42
14.92

West_Asian
14.56
13.41

East_Med
19.46
21.22

Red_Sea
1.02
1.42

South_Asian
0.26
0.58

Southeast_Asian
0.16
-

Siberian
-
-

Amerindian
0.08
-

Oceanian
0.15
0.38

Northeast_African
0.53
-

Sub-Saharan
0.52
0.84

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## Angela

> My GEDMatch K15 calculator comparison:
> 
> Population
> Ancestry
> LivingDNA
> 
> North_Sea
> 6.81
> 8.19
> ...


What does it give as your population matches, though. Just click on Oracle.

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## bigsnake49

For V2 K15, living DNA input:

*Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
Greek
4.54

2
Bulgarian
6.35

3
Greek_Thessaly
8.31

4
Romanian
9.61

5
Central_Greek
10.83

6
Italian_Abruzzo
11.15

7
Ashkenazi
12.09

8
East_Sicilian
12.1

9
Tuscan
12.44

10
West_Sicilian
12.45

11
Serbian
13.65

12
South_Italian
13.71

13
North_Italian
15.95

14
Moldavian
17.72

15
Italian_Jewish
18.42

16
Sephardic_Jewish
18.54

17
Algerian_Jewish
19.05

18
Croatian
19.26

19
Austrian
19.65

20
Hungarian
20.73



*Depending on the calculator and the project I cluster with either Greeks or Bulgarians. Since my folks came from Eastern Thrace it does not surprise me that I sometimes cluster with Bulgarians or Romanians. Thracians and Dacians occupied that area in antiquity.

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## bigsnake49

For comparison between living DNA and AncestryDNA:

Single Population Sharing:




LivingDna

Ancestry


#
Population (source)
Distance
Population (source)
Distance

1
Greek
4.54
Greek
6.01

2
Bulgarian
6.35
Bulgarian
7.34

3
Greek_Thessaly
8.31
Romanian
10.25

4
Romanian
9.61
Greek_Thessaly
10.39

5
Central_Greek
10.83
Italian_Abruzzo
11.8

6
Italian_Abruzzo
11.15
Central_Greek
12.03

7
Ashkenazi
12.09
Tuscan
12.91

8
East_Sicilian
12.1
West_Sicilian
13.07

9
Tuscan
12.44
East_Sicilian
13.28

10
West_Sicilian
12.45
Ashkenazi
13.3

11
Serbian
13.65
Serbian
13.8

12
South_Italian
13.71
South_Italian
14.9

13
North_Italian
15.95
North_Italian
15.93

14
Moldavian
17.72
Moldavian
17.99

15
Italian_Jewish
18.42
Sephardic_Jewish
19.4

16
Sephardic_Jewish
18.54
Croatian
19.4

17
Algerian_Jewish
19.05
Italian_Jewish
19.49

18
Croatian
19.26
Austrian
19.55

19
Austrian
19.65
Algerian_Jewish
20.07

20
Hungarian
20.73
Hungarian
21.24

----------


## Angela

As I suspected, since Greek comes out first on both tests, your "ancestry" scores must be typical for Greeks. 

That doesn't mean I think the clusters are correct, however, because I don't. That's a separate issue.

----------


## bigsnake49

> As I suspected, since Greek comes out first on both tests, your "ancestry" scores must be typical for Greeks. 
> 
> That doesn't mean I think the clusters are correct, however, because I don't. That's a separate issue.


I agree with you. Their raw data is pretty close to Ancestry's. Their reference populations are way off.

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## zagortenay

My European Results from 23andme: 

EUROPEAN 75.3%

Balkan

55.10%

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Italian

10.30%

Eastern European

1.30%

Ashkenazi Jewish

0.10%

Broadly Southern European

6.10%

Broadly Northwestern European

0.10%

Broadly European

2.40%



And this is from ancestry:


Caucasus

33%

Europe South

28%

Europe East

24%

----------

