# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Are Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks clustered with Cretans/Greek Islanders?

## Beelzebub

Are Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks autosomally clustered with Cretans/ and non Cypriot Greek Islanders?

* Eurogenes K13 Averages has a "Central Greek" average and that puts them in autosomal range of Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazim Jews. 

Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazim Jews have been shown to have close genetic affinity to Greek Islanders.
Does anyone have good regional autosomal data on Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks?*


Central Greek Eurogenes K13 Averages:

*North Atlantic - 16.86*
*Baltic - 10.38*
*West Med - 21.47*
West Asian - 15.44
East Med - 29.25
Red Sea - 5.03
South Asian - 0.29
East Asian - 0.24
Siberian - 0.14
Amerindian - 0.32
Oceanian - 0.56
North-East African - 0.03
Sub-Saharan African - 0.01

*East Sicilian*

*North Atlantic - 16.46*
*Baltic - 9.03*
*West Med - 21.26*
West Asian - 13.83
East Med - 29.91
Red Sea - 6.26
South Asian - 0.67
East Asian - 0.11
Siberian - 0.04
Amerindian - 0.17
Oceanian - 0.38
North-East African - 1.37
Sub-Saharan African - 0.56

*South Italian*

*North Atlantic - 16.72*
*Baltic - 5.91*
*West Med - 22.77*
West Asian - 15.02
East Med - 31.82
Red Sea - 5.12
South Asian - 0.66
East Asian - 0.08
Siberian - 0.17
Amerindian - 0.53
Oceanian - 0.23
North-East African - 0.44
Sub-Saharan African - 0.53

*Ashkenazi Jews*

*North Atlantic - 15.31*
*Baltic - 10.15*
*West Med - 18.44*
West Asian - 10.28
East Med - 34.60
Red Sea - 5.98
South Asian - 1.04
East Asian - 0.79
Siberian - 0.97
Amerindian - 0.46
Oceanian - 0.29
North-East African - 1.14
Sub-Saharan African - 0.50

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## Diomedes

Even if they do not cluster (which I reckon it ain't true), what matters the most is culture and common traits.

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## Beelzebub

> Even if they do not cluster (which I reckon it ain't true), what matters the most is culture and common traits.


Hard to imagine that a tiny distance from The Peloponnese and Crete could possibly separate a seafaring people that are culturally and linguistically bridged, into distinct genetic clusters.
I would say the genetic difference between Peloponnesian's and Cretan's is no more pronounced than the difference between Sicilians and Maltese.

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## Angela

One hypothesis is that prior to the Slavic invasions the populations of Crete and the other islands were much more similar to those of the mainland, since those invasions would have had more of an effect on the mainland. I think that's logical and supported by the evidence. 

On the other hand, there were other migrations which might have differentially affected the mainland, such as the Goths or even any northern shifted "steppe" group. Then, the islands, being closer to Anatolia, might have a bit more of that ancestry, although mitigating against that is the fact that there has been constant and continuing contacts between the islands and many parts of the mainland.

So, I'm waiting for the ancient DNA.

If you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the thread on the recent paper on Greek genetics. Just use the search engine to find it.

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## Beelzebub

> One hypothesis is that prior to the Slavic invasions the populations of Crete and the other islands were much more similar to those of the mainland, since those invasions would have had more of an effect on the mainland. I think that's logical and supported by the evidence. 
> 
> On the other hand, there were other migrations which might have differentially affected the mainland, such as the Goths or even any northern shifted "steppe" group. Then, the islands, being closer to Anatolia, might have a bit more of that ancestry, although mitigating against that is the fact that there has been constant and continuing contacts between the islands and many parts of the mainland.
> 
> So, I'm waiting for the ancient DNA.
> 
> If you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the thread on the recent paper on Greek genetics. Just use the search engine to find it.


I briefly reviewed the paper on the Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks.
Sequencing ancient Greek autosomal DNA is really key to answering some very lingering questions on the origins of the Greek Genome.

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## LATGAL

The "Central Greek" sample is a mixed bag and has some islanders in it too from what I recall (I could be misremembering but the 'geographical' name tells one little either way). It's well-established that Italy runs on a cline and mainland Greece is probably the same too, considering there wasn't a recent population expansion there either.

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## Beelzebub

> The "Central Greek" sample is a mixed bag and has some islanders in it too from what I recall (I could be misremembering but the 'geographical' name tells one little either way). It's well-established that Italy runs on a cline and mainland Greece is probably the same too, considering there wasn't a recent population expansion there either.


One would hope that "Central Greek" samples wouldn't have Greek Islanders in the sample, other than perhaps Evia.
Regardless, the Peloponnese is not Central Greece, and is southern mainland Greece.
I think it's clear that the Peloponnese population cluster with Sicilians and a good chunk of Southern mainland Italians, rather than with Southern Slavic populations. 
I'm not sure on where the bulk of "Central Greeks" cluster.
Probably a mixed bag and bridge between Sicilians/Southern Italians and Southern Slavic populations.

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## New Englander

No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....

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## Beelzebub

> No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....


Below are the Greek Cypriot samples from Eurogenes K13.
By "Jews," I'm assuming that you mean Ashkenazi Jews?
I don't see much in the way of "clustering" in these 2 population averages.
I don't agree with that at all, at least not including Cypriots in your post.
And we really need to define "Central Greece" too.
The Peloponnese is mainland Southern Greece, and I don't believe they cluster with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria.
The Peloponnese populations share genetic affinity with the Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazi Jews.

*Greek Cypriot*

*North Atlantic - 5.67*
*Baltic - 2.81*
West Med - 19.86
*West Asian - 20.34*
East Med - 41.08
Red Sea - 8.17
South Asian - 0.50
East Asian - 0.07
Siberian - 0.23
Amerindian - 0.00
Oceanian - 0.47
North-East African - 0.30
Sub-Saharan African - 0.54

*Ashkenazi Jews*

*North Atlantic - 15.31*
*Baltic - 10.15*
West Med - 18.44
*West Asian - 10.28*
East Med - 34.60
Red Sea - 5.98
South Asian - 1.04
East Asian - 0.79
Siberian - 0.97
Amerindian - 0.46
Oceanian - 0.29
North-East African - 1.14
Sub-Saharan African - 0.50

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## Pax Augusta

> No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....


Greek Thessalians are somewhat closer to Tuscans (the Tuscan dot is based on southern Tuscans though), but not the rest of Greek mainlanders.

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## Beelzebub

> Greek Thessalians are somewhat closer to Tuscans (the Tuscan dot is based on southern Tuscans though), but not the rest of Greek mainlanders.


That makes perfect sense to me.
Plenty of autosomal DNA studies support your post.

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## Angela

Pax is correct. In no PCA I've ever seen do any Greeks,not even those from Thessaly, cluster with Tuscans although the ones from Thessaly are pretty close. Still, they're south and east of the Tuscans.

New Englander's post is just a continuation of theapricity twaddle. Even the new Sarno paper with its NatGeo samples from only the northern Peloponnesus doesn't support the assertions in that post. Feel free to ignore, imo

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## New Englander

So than its: 

Spain 
Portugal
Northern Italy
Sardinia 

Bulgaria
Tuscany
Central Italy
_Thessalians
Albania

Central greece
Ashkenazi
South Italians/West Sicily
Crete / Sparta
East Sicily/Sephardi Jews 

Cyprus/Anatolian Greeks 

_

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## Beelzebub

> So than its: 
> 
> Spain 
> Portugal
> Northern Italy
> Sardinia 
> 
> Bulgaria
> Tuscany
> ...


Reads like a well compiled list to me.
As new data comes in, it's not likely to shift much.

----------


## Angela

_@NE

_Stop trying to order populations based on two dimensional PCA's which only capture a fraction of genetic variability because that's all you understand. (I'll take that back: you only think you understand them.)

Get back on topic, and reread both the Sarno paper and the paper on Peloponnesian genetics. I'll repeat what I've said: Anyone who distorts or cherry picks data is out of here.

As for Spain and Potugal, let's revisit it on the proper thread when the sample for Spain isn't based on Catalonia and perhaps the part of Andalusia which was heavily resettled from the north.

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## New Englander

*"Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4**%**. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population".

meaning some are more Bulgarian like, while others are more Sicilian like.....*

----------


## Angela

The question at hand is: Do Central Greeks and Peloponnesus Greeks cluster with Cretans and Greek Islanders. Any off topic posts will be summarily deleted. If it becomes clear to me this is a ***** thread I'll close it.

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## Pax Augusta

> Pax is correct. In no PCA I've ever seen do any Greeks,not even those from Thessaly, cluster with Tuscans although the ones from Thessaly are pretty close. Still, they're south and east of the Tuscans.


Yes, Tuscans and Thessalians don't cluster together, are somewhat closer but Thessalians are always more east. That map uses the HGDP sample, TSI30, another Tuscan sample, is a bit closer to North Italy.




> So than its: 
> 
> Spain 
> Portugal
> Northern Italy
> Sardinia 
> 
> Bulgaria
> Tuscany
> ...


That map is based on Eurogenes K15, Sardinians in a PCA are usually more outlying than that. Northern Italian in that map is Bergamo, North Italy is more diverse than that, Northeastern Italians can be in that map intermediate between the North Italian and Serbian dots. Abruzzo is more Southern Italian or Central-Southern Italian rather than properly Central Italian.




> "Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population".


It's a range, not all Peloponneseans have 14.4 of Slavic ancestry, it's just their peak according to the paper.

----------


## New Englander

But I would expect the less Slavic, the more West Asian. That is the range, what is the mode?

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## A. Papadimitriou

I don't understand why so many people seem to care.

Either way my prediction is that Classical Greeks would be more Southern shifted than modern 'mainland' Greeks but the possible movements from North, West and East are many.

'Anatolian Greeks' are not uniform, btw. We saw that even Peloponnesians aren't.

The most important difference between various Greek groups is the East European admixture, which is brought by non-Greeks imo but it isn't correct to attribute all of it to Slavs either. (We know that there were Thracians in Greek Macedonia and now we are seeing that the Steppe component -which imo has nothing to do with IE- arrives early in East Balkans)

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## Pax Augusta

> But I would expect the less Slavic, the more West Asian.


Why? I don't get the problem.

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## New Englander

The range for Slavic is 1-14% correct? Well, I would assume its regional. SO what is the mode? Now, if it is not regional, would we suspect to find individuals with 14% Slavic, and an elevated West Asian level? I would assume those with elevated Slavic ancestry, to have lesser amounts of West Asian, while the more Sicilian like individuals to have less Slavic, hence why they cluster with Sicilians....

----------


## LATGAL

> So than its: 
> 
> Spain 
> Portugal
> Northern Italy
> Sardinia 
> 
> Bulgaria
> Tuscany
> ...


I'm not sure what this is supposed to be about, exactly. Sardinians in particular are a highly drifted and genetically 'special' population.

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## Angela

> I'm not sure what this is supposed to be about, exactly. Sardinians in particular are a highly drifted and genetically 'special' population.


You beat me to it. The Sardinians don't really cluster with anyone.

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## Yetos

> You beat me to it. The Sardinians don't really cluster with anyone.



don't be so sure,

I am expecting a group from Greece to be next to them,

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## Angela

> don't be so sure,
> 
> I am expecting a group from Greece to be next to them,


Now, don't be coy. Which group and why?

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## New Englander

Well Sardinia can be in a cluster separate from the top one. All I was showing were micro clusters within Mediterranean Europe, With the South West, and East Med divide, with a intermediate group having either Atlantic/Slavic and West Asian....Based on about every GEDmatch oracle I have ever seen, not sure why this is such a radical idea.

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## Hauteville

> So than its: 
> 
> Spain 
> Portugal
> Northern Italy
> Sardinia 
> 
> Bulgaria
> Tuscany
> ...


Actually the right cataloging of the samples judging by the spreadsheet is the following:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape...4535&t=5673629

Basque
Spain
Bergamo
Portugal
Tuscany/Bulgaria
Albania
Thessaly
Abruzzo/West Sicily
Central Greece/East Sicily
South Italy (actually only Calabria)
Ashkenazi
Sephardi
Cyprus

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## Angela

I will give everyone an hour to copy their off-topic material to the Balkanian disagreements thread. After that it's all deleted.

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## LATGAL

> The influence of Tosk Albanians in South Balcan during the history, i mean at least in the last millenium, is enormus. From Shkumbin river to the greek islands was Toskëri.





> we are not disagreeing for anything. We are contributing in clarifying the topic of Greek autosomal large discrepancies among regions of Greece, and suggesting that the reason behind this is because if Greek genetics is taken into account, Greece is not a country. Greece is actually a collection of Balkan populations, an accidental creation of Big Powers of 19 century. So there is no point of talking about Greek genetics. And there is not room for subjectivity for what I am saying. Everything is documented from Greeks themselves.


Not sure what Albanian national mythology has to do with this thread.




> I will give everyone an hour to copy their off-topic material to the Balkanian disagreements thread. After that it's all deleted.


There are two Albanian users who do this to every Balkan-related thread. It will just keep happening, you know.

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## Yetos

> Greek Thessalians are somewhat closer to Tuscans (the Tuscan dot is based on southern Tuscans though), but not the rest of Greek mainlanders.



@Pax

if what you said before is certain,

start thinking about what I say long time ago

Thessaly is also known as *Pelasgian Argos
*
and many ancient writers connect Lemnos and other Pelasgian areas with Thyrrenians,

is that possible (not certain, but possible) by the genetics you post?

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## Angela

After this point, each and every post which is off topic will result in an infraction. If you see such a post, DO NOT RESPOND. Contact me and I will issue the infraction.

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## LATGAL

My bad, was typing.  :Laughing:

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## Angela

I'm assuming we cross posted, so I 'm giving you a pass, but it's the last one on this thread.

People, do not respond to off topic posts. CONTACT ME!

I guess LeBrok has been right all along. Some people only understand the hammer.

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## LABERIA

> My bad, was typing.


Don't worry, something was saved :




> Not sure what Albanian national mythology has to do with this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> There are two Albanian users who do this to every Balkan-related thread. It will just keep happening, you know.

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## spartan owl

I belive even the question of the thread is stupid. Ofcourse central greece and peloponnese would clouster better with the aegean islands and north greece than anyone else.They belong to the same nation.
(Do you new englander have dna results from sparta that you use on your classification or you just meant laconia?If you do as a spartan i whould be really intersted in them.But if you meant laconia why should be as a whole different than the rest of peloponnese?Arcadia and argolis seems to share even less ancestry with france for example, even if laconia have within her a population (mani)that do not clust with no one like sardinia.)
If this is an excuse to make an north to south clasification then just say it clear.But even in that case why do you compare states with regions?

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## New Englander

I just meant Sparta as in Southern mainland Greece, or Laconia. I pretty much base what I know on GEDmatch results, and it seems that as someone who charts as 75% Ashkenazim, and 25% Swedish most of the time, I consistently cluster in Southern mainland Greece and Abruzzo, Italy. I than get Sicilian, Jewish, Turkish, and than Northern Italy and Spain. Sometimes I end with Cyprus. My point is, that its not hard to see what groups go with what if we are only concerned with similarities in admixture. 

As far as Sardinia, I'm not sure what you mean, but they might group with Baskids somehow, I'm not sure. 

Now, Im sure most Greeks have direct ancestry in common, but of course there will be regional variations. Some Greeks with have much more in common with Bulgarians, while others will have more in common with Cyprus and whatever groups are close to them.

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## spartan owl

> I just meant Sparta as in Southern mainland Greece, or Laconia. I pretty much base what I know on GEDmatch results, and it seems that as someone who charts as 75% Ashkenazim, and 25% Swedish most of the time, I consistently cluster in Southern mainland Greece and Abruzzo, Italy. I than get Sicilian, Jewish, Turkish, and than Northern Italy and Spain. Sometimes I end with Cyprus. My point is, that its not hard to see what groups go with what if we are only concerned with similarities in admixture. 
> 
> As far as Sardinia, I'm not sure what you mean, but they might group with Baskids somehow, I'm not sure. 
> 
> Now, Im sure most Greeks have direct ancestry in common, but of course there will be regional variations. Some Greeks with have much more in common with Bulgarians, while others will have more in common with Cyprus and whatever groups are close to them.


yes there will be regional variations but they will cluster amongst them anyhow.So the question of the thread are central and peloponnesean greeks clustered with cretan and aegean greeks? is a pointless question ofcourse they do! As for the sardinian part what i meant is that mani is like the sardinians in the sense that they are a case of isolated population like the reggio calabria greeks of bova that differs from their neighbours because of the isolation.In fact if you see the paper on peloponnese you will see in the suplementary information that they share the lowest percentage of dna with the italians amongst all peloponnesean populations and not the highest like the rest of the laconians.
But i did not uderstand you have a series of resuls in gedmatch specific for laconias?If you have i would like to see them.

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## New Englander

*Project*

*Calculator*

*Population*


MDLP Project

MDLP K11 Modern

Greek_Neolithic


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K16 Modern

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Azov_Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Central_Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Athens


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Islands


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Macedonia


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Northwest


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Peloponnesos


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Phokaia


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Smyrna


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Thessaloniki


MDLP Project

MDLP K23b

Greek_Thessaly


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_Azov


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_Center


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_North


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_East


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_Cretan


MDLP Project

MDLP World

Greek_South


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_Azov


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_Center


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_Cretan


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_East


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_North


MDLP Project

MDLP World-22

Greek_South


Eurogenes

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15

Central_Greek


Eurogenes

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15

Greek


Eurogenes

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15

Greek_Thessaly


Eurogenes

Eurogenes K13

Central_Greek


Eurogenes

Eurogenes K13

Greek_Thessaly


Dodecad

Dodecad K12b

Greek


Dodecad

Dodecad K7b

Greek


Dodecad

Dodecad V3

Greek


Dodecad

World9

Greek


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K10 Ancient

Greek


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K12 Modern

Greek


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K13 Global

Greek_Central


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K13 Global

Greek_Thessaly


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K15

Greek_Thessaly


puntDNAL

puntDNAL K15

Greek_Central


GedrosiaDNA

Ancient Eurasia K6

Greek


GedrosiaDNA

Eurasia K9 ASI

Greek


GedrosiaDNA

Gedrosia K12

Greek


GedrosiaDNA

Gedrosia K3

Greek


GedrosiaDNA

Near East Neolithic K13

Greek

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## matadworf

Here's mine (SW Pelop)
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.31
2 North_Atlantic 22.16
3 West_Med 20.22
4 Baltic 14.81
5 West_Asian 11.9
6 Red_Sea 3
7 Amerindian 0.61

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## curiouscat

Most common patterns tend to be: Northern Mainland Greece shifts towards Bulgaria and Southern Balkans Southern Mainland makes a gate between Northern Mainland and Greek Islands Greek Islands make a gate between Southern Mainland and Cyprus Cyprus makes a gate between Greek Islands and Anatolia/Northern Levant

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## matadworf

Could you please provide a Thessalian sample.

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## curiouscat

Greek from Thessaly:


*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
20.08

2
Baltic
16.76

3
West_Med
13.33

4
West_Asian
13.25

5
Atlantic
12.49

6
North_Sea
11.85

7
Eastern_Euro
6.76

8
Red_Sea
3.55




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bulgarian @ 6.201607
2 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.703343
3 Greek @ 8.452314
4 Romanian @ 8.989216
5 Central_Greek @ 13.355317
6 Ashkenazi @ 13.375912
7 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.126357
8 Serbian @ 14.146462
9 East_Sicilian @ 14.518414
10 Tuscan @ 15.491569
11 West_Sicilian @ 16.513288
12 South_Italian @ 17.361965
13 Moldavian @ 18.105959
14 North_Italian @ 19.502514
15 Croatian @ 20.604506
16 Hungarian @ 21.546749
17 Austrian @ 21.826361
18 Italian_Jewish @ 22.274914
19 Sephardic_Jewish @ 22.820105
20 Algerian_Jewish @ 23.602068

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.493837


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Central_Greek +25% Lithuanian @ 3.223526

----------


## matadworf

I haven't seen any Pelopennisian results to compare to Thessalians and/or Central Grreks. I believe that there might be sections of the the peninsula that may, on average cluster north of Thessaly. Would these be outliers? I've always contended that there was a pretty significant Slavic admixture in portions of the Pelop.

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## LeBrok

Here are results of Greeks from samples that I got. According to this, there is not much difference between Greeks on mainland.
Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Greece, mainland
15
0
8
31
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Macedonia
5
0
8
31
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Peloponnese
5
0
9
31
24
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Other mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Greek, island and mainland average
0
8
34
20
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
11
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

----------


## curiouscat

> I haven't seen any Pelopennisian results to compare to Thessalians and/or Central Grreks. I believe that there might be sections of the the peninsula that may, on average cluster north of Thessaly. Would these be outliers? I've always contended that there was a pretty significant Slavic admixture in portions of the Pelop.


Peloponnesian from Korinthos

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
25.45

2
West_Med
18.81

3
West_Asian
16.01

4
North_Sea
13.81

5
Atlantic
8.95

6
Baltic
8.25

7
Red_Sea
4.13

8
Eastern_Euro
3.16

9
Southeast_Asian
1.13




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Central_Greek @ 6.261033
2 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.228187
3 East_Sicilian @ 7.569451
4 Ashkenazi @ 8.438622
5 South_Italian @ 9.444893
6 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.470657
7 Greek @ 10.700311
8 West_Sicilian @ 12.387382
9 Tuscan @ 13.703315
10 Italian_Jewish @ 13.977630
11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 15.965655
12 Algerian_Jewish @ 16.239784
13 Bulgarian @ 16.878223
14 Romanian @ 18.867550
15 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.267750
16 Tunisian_Jewish @ 19.992113
17 North_Italian @ 20.263763
18 Cyprian @ 20.644209
19 Turkish @ 22.086815
20 Serbian @ 22.834698

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.122398


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Greek_Thessaly +25% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.122398

----------


## matadworf

Ok these are K 12 averages and only Central Greeks and Thessalians were included on the spreadsheet. I was curious because the three elements considered as Nothern shifting; Baltic, West Med and Northern Atlantic were a bit higher in my profile than the Thessalian avg. and my family is full Southern mainland. I guess I would just be on the high end of the Pelop. avg. for NE or NW shifted.

----------


## LeBrok

Post your Harappa admixtures from GEDmatch and I can tell you how you fit with other Peloponnese samples that I have.
In this thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...d-contemporary

----------


## curiouscat

Other Greek results

Symrna, Asia Minor 
*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
33.88

2
West_Med
18.52

3
West_Asian
16.63

4
North_Sea
9.89

5
Atlantic
8.20

6
Red_Sea
6.60

7
Baltic
3.23

8
Eastern_Euro
2.59




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Jewish @ 7.405468
2 South_Italian @ 8.050717
3 Sephardic_Jewish @ 9.217436
4 Algerian_Jewish @ 9.542070
5 Central_Greek @ 9.649453
6 East_Sicilian @ 9.654523
7 Ashkenazi @ 10.559334
8 Cyprian @ 11.008551
9 Libyan_Jewish @ 11.217402
10 Tunisian_Jewish @ 11.835511
11 Italian_Abruzzo @ 13.327325
12 West_Sicilian @ 14.023601
13 Lebanese_Muslim @ 15.398743
14 Syrian @ 16.311251
15 Greek_Thessaly @ 16.428387
16 Greek @ 16.898632
17 Samaritan @ 18.113977
18 Lebanese_Christian @ 19.536530
19 Jordanian @ 19.547615
20 Turkish @ 19.612806

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +50% Cyprian @ 5.189705


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.392044

Kalymnos

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
35.87

2
West_Med
18.06

3
West_Asian
16.19

4
Atlantic
11.10

5
Red_Sea
5.52

6
North_Sea
5.37

7
Eastern_Euro
2.63

8
Baltic
2.57

9
South_Asian
2.20




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.825840
2 Italian_Jewish @ 7.090623
3 Algerian_Jewish @ 7.385592
4 South_Italian @ 8.436271
5 Cyprian @ 8.575014
6 Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.172720
7 East_Sicilian @ 11.356441
8 Central_Greek @ 11.526863
9 Libyan_Jewish @ 11.845531
10 Ashkenazi @ 12.704471
11 West_Sicilian @ 13.978880
12 Lebanese_Muslim @ 13.985982
13 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.589229
14 Syrian @ 15.479359
15 Samaritan @ 16.617407
16 Greek @ 17.618773
17 Lebanese_Christian @ 18.073690
18 Jordanian @ 18.665810
19 Greek_Thessaly @ 19.186825
20 Turkish @ 19.215681

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cyprian +50% South_Italian @ 3.691948


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese_Druze +25% Sardinian +25% Turkish @ 3.273368


Laconia

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
26.21

2
West_Asian
15.88

3
West_Med
14.90

4
Atlantic
14.39

5
North_Sea
11.14

6
Baltic
10.29

7
Red_Sea
4.02

8
Eastern_Euro
2.49




Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Central_Greek @ 4.549251
2 Italian_Abruzzo @ 6.042953
3 East_Sicilian @ 6.116654
4 Greek @ 7.254793
5 South_Italian @ 7.736206
6 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.985965
7 Ashkenazi @ 8.031886
8 West_Sicilian @ 9.450727
9 Tuscan @ 12.085972
10 Italian_Jewish @ 13.544551
11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 14.138050
12 Bulgarian @ 14.460215
13 Algerian_Jewish @ 15.464900
14 Romanian @ 17.041328
15 Tunisian_Jewish @ 18.499628
16 North_Italian @ 19.108631
17 Libyan_Jewish @ 20.338245
18 Cyprian @ 20.408590
19 Turkish @ 21.108168
20 Serbian @ 21.480677

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +50% Greek @ 4.458888


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Central_Greek +25% Romanian +25% South_Italian @ 3.563117

----------


## matadworf

Harappa World Admixture
Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
7.62

Caucasian
29.17

NE-Euro
25.27

SE-Asian
0.13

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
0.84

Mediterranean
27.28

SW-Asian
9.65

San
-

E-African
0.05

Pygmy
-

W-African.
-

----------


## matadworf

Harappa World
Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
7.62

Caucasian
29.17

NE-Euro
25.27

SE-Asian
0.13

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
0.84

Mediterranean
27.28

SW-Asian
9.65

San
-

E-African
0.05

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

----------


## davef

> Here are results of Greeks from samples that I got. According to this, there is not much difference between Greeks on mainland.
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> ...


Can you throw in the Mycenaeans?

----------


## matadworf

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
29.17

2
Mediterranean
27.28

3
NE-Euro
25.27

4
SW-Asian
9.65

5
Baloch
7.62

6
Beringian
0.84

7
SE-Asian
0.13

8
E-African
0.05


*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
tuscan (1000genomes)
5.36

2
tuscan (hgdp)
5.81

3
tuscan (hapmap)
6.46

4
ashkenazi (harappa)
8.69

5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.25

6
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
11.57

7
romanian-a (behar)
11.93

8
italian (hgdp)
12.55

9
sephardic-jew (behar)
18.02

10
morocco-jew (behar)
18.59

11
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
19.74

12
spaniard (behar)
23.9

13
spaniard (1000genomes)
24.76

14
french (hgdp)
25.79

15
hungarian (behar)
26.05

16
romanian-b (behar)
26.12

17
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
26.25

18
cypriot (behar)
27.15

19
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
27.19

20
slovenian (xing)
27.62

----------


## matadworf

Harappa World
1
Caucasian
29.17

2
Mediterranean
27.28

3
NE-Euro
25.27

4
SW-Asian
9.65

5
Baloch
7.62

6
Beringian
0.84

7
SE-Asian
0.13

8
E-African
0.05



1
tuscan (1000genomes)
5.36

2
tuscan (hgdp)
5.81

3
tuscan (hapmap)
6.46

4
ashkenazi (harappa)
8.69

5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.25

6
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
11.57

7
romanian-a (behar)
11.93

8
italian (hgdp)
12.55

9
sephardic-jew (behar)
18.02

10
morocco-jew (behar)
18.59

11
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
19.74

12
spaniard (behar)
23.9

13
spaniard (1000genomes)
24.76

14
french (hgdp)
25.79

15
hungarian (behar)
26.05

16
romanian-b (behar)
26.12

17
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
26.25

18
cypriot (behar)
27.15

19
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
27.19

20
slovenian (xing)
27.62

----------


## matadworf

Yes have tried to post Harappa results but have been unable to. Will keep trying

----------


## LeBrok

I added Mycenaean, the averaged sample and matadwarf.
Mat fits in Peloponnese and Greece mainland in general very well. Mycenaean is closest to Greek East Islander but is missing a bit of Steppe and even more Levant component SW Asian. It also has way more Med from Neolithic farmers.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517332

----------


## ihype02

Why are there so many Jews in GedMatch results?

----------


## Angela

> Why are there so many Jews in GedMatch results?


There shouldn't be, imo. The reason they're there is because the creators of some calculators include them in the reference populations. They shouldn't. The Ashkenazim, in particular, are a very unique population in that they formed very recently from ancestral strains already present in Europe. Admixture matches to them are just picking up a mix of ancestry, nothing particular to them. The worst offenders of the "private" companies was FTDNA. May still be for all I know. The geniuses put the Ashkenazim as a Near Eastern reference even though they're at least 40-50% European. Madness.

If someone wants to know if they're related to Ashkenazim, they should test with 23andme. If you come up with thousands of "Jewish" cousins, you'll know. You can even figure out if it was a grandparent, great grandparent, great-great grandparent, etc. 

If it tells you you have some, even under 1%, you probably do.

As for ancient Jews, when they give us the results for a couple of Jewish genomes from the days of King David or the Hasmoneans or the time of the revolt, we'll know. I gave my opinion years ago that either the Philistines brought some Southern European ancestry to Israel, or migrants to Europe picked it up there. We'll know when we get the ancient genomes. Until then, all the speculating going on is just people who like to hear themselves talk or have an agenda to push. I have no time to waste on things like that.

----------

