# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups > T >  Y dna haplogroup T

## rene

hi
i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
regards

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## adamo

I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

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## zanipolo

> I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
> 1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
> 2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive



Hi , I am T as well

firstly, the terminology m70 is no longer used as the base, its M184
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Pre 2008 it was K2

Have you done any SNP tests?
I have I am L446 positive which is ( as per link)
*T1a2b (L446) Found in Northwest Europe and eastern Alps.*

I have tested for the palestine, jordanian and druze markers...all negative. so I checked with the 
Armenian ftdna project site .......no luck ( although its a good site).

I only have matches with british people ( usually irish, cornish and scots ), central alpine people ( north italians, austrians and swiss ), some germans and a norwegian.

Also...check Isogg site ...it has some updates on SNP changes

And contact Mr. Henson at T project..he is helpful.

my chromosones via doug McDonald Audna admixture tests - below



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## adamo

All I know currently is that I am L299 positive which would put me in T1a1 ( found in northern Anatolia and Germany). What I have been wondering is where does this haplogroup originate? Is it a Jewish genetic marker? Is it very rare or have geneticists not quite yet analyzed samples from the correct places to find other hotspots? Is it true as stated in my genographic 2.0 results that 21% of Jordanian men have haplogroup T? I haven't come across any studies claiming this and information on the exact origin point of this lineage is so scarce that it is depressing to be a member of it lol... It seems to me as though every time Jewish people are involved the percentage goes higher for example Kurds and Iraqis don't have much haplogroup T but when we start talking of Kurdish JEWS and Iraqi JEWS its like an extra 10% of haplogroup T bringing it to 18-20%

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## zanipolo

> All I know currently is that I am L299 positive which would put me in T1a1 ( found in northern Anatolia and Germany). What I have been wondering is where does this haplogroup originate? Is it a Jewish genetic marker? Is it very rare or have geneticists not quite yet analyzed samples from the correct places to find other hotspots? Is it true as stated in my genographic 2.0 results that 21% of Jordanian men have haplogroup T? I haven't come across any studies claiming this and information on the exact origin point of this lineage is so scarce that it is depressing to be a member of it lol... It seems to me as though every time Jewish people are involved the percentage goes higher for example Kurds and Iraqis don't have much haplogroup T but when we start talking of Kurdish JEWS and Iraqi JEWS its like an extra 10% of haplogroup T bringing it to 18-20%


currently this marker is classified west-asian......basically old Persia.
The russians are talking about it being re-classified central-asian ...caspian sea area

It is not jewish , only some alleles are noted jewish and these are in nearly all haplogroups.....I have no jewishness ( tested)

here is more info
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=news

armenians and ancient assyrians have a lot of T

Jews stand out because they can afford the tests. but since I joined project T over a year ago , the numbers have doubled, usually more northern european and americans are the extra numbers , again costs.

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## adamo

So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages

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## zanipolo

> So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages


I agree with Iran ( persia) that what I said as its birthplace. The african part is the so call back to africa theory which i placed a link on another T thread. The east african part for T was explained by someone, that it refers to Arab slave trade of africans in the 11th century onwards, there seems to be a lot of Gedrosian ( east iran ) T numbers in somalia

On the armenian thread , you can click the word map to bring up maps of T

My theory is that T will disappear in a 1000 year because I believe the older the markers the less sperm count...means less children.

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## adamo

But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will

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## zanipolo

> But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will


http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinborland/6243496848/

and also read the link inside this link

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## zanipolo

> But we can't say that haplogroup T is Armenian.... It's found in only 6-8% of Armenians except for a village called Sasun in Anatolia that had 20% of T. Maybe they did not test regions of Armenia enough but I know that Armenians are high in J2 and R1b with some J1. Even Iran has such low levels except pockets of 10-13% in what I call the "Elamite" region of Iran near ancient Susa. Could this be the haplogroup of the ancient Elamites civilization but their numbers where dramatically reduced? The map on that website also does not show the 20% of Jordanians. And what about the 20% in Sasun, is this only for that city, did they test anywhere else near Sasun and the levels where low or they didn't even test? There must be some region where the levels are higher but they didn't even test yet, such a confusing haplogroup...... I am obsessed with finding a big national hotspot of more than 15-20% , I wonder if they will


 In europe you will never get in one area more than 10%.

I believe in went to central europe very early with the hunter gathers and pastoral farmers, possibly with G2a and J2 people. Ftdna ALPGEN shows are lot of people with this.

a man like doug form the university of Illinois, can find your Ydna back ground up to 2500 years....he is free..
I forgot his email link..maybe someone here has it.....or I can try to find it in my old PC

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## adamo

Wow so Dravidian languages coincide with the minor spread of haplogroup T in India..... I still don't think at all that haplogroup T originated there in the high percentages areas of India or Horn of Africa or south Egypt or Oman area but I suppose in India it may have made a immigration linguistic impact. According to dating techniques the T in Egypt and Horn of Africa are older than the relatively young T from Oman supporting my hypothesis of T moving to Horn of Africa from Egypt with a much later movement from Middle East/Arabia to Oman. India I dont know the age of the haplogroup T but with the data there is Middle East T is the oldest of all thus signalling its origin point. In my opinion and according to the Wikipedia T-M184 map, T originally came either from the big 9-13% zone in southern Iran near the Elamite zone or the 7% zone covering Iraq

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## zanipolo

> Wow so Dravidian languages coincide with the minor spread of haplogroup T in India..... I still don't think at all that haplogroup T originated there in the high percentages areas of India or Horn of Africa or south Egypt or Oman area but I suppose in India it may have made a immigration linguistic impact. According to dating techniques the T in Egypt and Horn of Africa are older than the relatively young T from Oman supporting my hypothesis of T moving to Horn of Africa from Egypt with a much later movement from Middle East/Arabia to Oman. India I dont know the age of the haplogroup T but with the data there is Middle East T is the oldest of all thus signalling its origin point. In my opinion and according to the Wikipedia T-M184 map, T originally came either from the big 9-13% zone in southern Iran near the Elamite zone or the 7% zone covering Iraq


here is a 2008 post ....remember k2 was T then

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/

Yes, I saw egypt is older than the horn.....its also stated that thomas jefferson the USA president ( a long time ago ) and a T person, has origins in egypt pre the pharaohs....so there was early movement of markers then.

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## adamo

I read somewhere that some geneticists thought T was the Phoenicians haplogroup because its found near Ibiza, In Sicily , in other Mediterranean Sea areas... But haplogroup T is barely found in Lebanon the so-called Phoenician "homeland". But then again Jordan is very near by so maybe this was the Phoenicians homeland. Other people say the Phoenicians where J2. Maybe the geneticists didn't test yet enough people or areas to find other high percentages I hope they test many more villages in the Middle East and find many more high percentages in isolated villages across Iraq or turkey, or maybe the haplogroup just isn't really there, maybe it does not follow or imitate J2, maybe it's a group going extinct with a history lost forever in some old destroyed civilization like the Elamites or Sumerians or something.... I'm trying to find studies or n formation on Jordanian people because their 21% takes place on a national level so understanding the Jordanian people may be my closest understanding of haplogroup T considering Iraq, Ian and the rest have it at too low a frequency to be considered Haplogroup T home or territory

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## adamo

They need to do more genetic testing, write more studies and publish more conclusive results on our haplogroup, not enough info on it!! Makes me sad lol oh well then I guess I'll continue studying on the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan knowing that slightly more than twenty percent of them as T

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## zanipolo

> They need to do more genetic testing, write more studies and publish more conclusive results on our haplogroup, not enough info on it!! Makes me sad lol oh well then I guess I'll continue studying on the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan knowing that slightly more than twenty percent of them as T


you will find something in one of the links inside this link

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

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## adamo

Thank you, interesting website. I have also found an area stretching from Sasun in turkey (eastern turkey near Erzurum) bypassing Armenia (excluding it) but including northern Iraq and the Azerbaijan Gharbi (west Azerbaijan province and other nearby regions of northwest Iran) as an area of probable 10-13% haplogroup T

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## adamo

Also I read that haplogroup T may have originated near the Persian gulf or the Red Sea. This would put the origin point significantly closer to Jordan's 20% hg T. But again this is just a personal theory

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## zanipolo

> Also I read that haplogroup T may have originated near the Persian gulf or the Red Sea. This would put the origin point significantly closer to Jordan's 20% hg T. But again this is just a personal theory


Your L299+ in the russian site, semagyl is mostly comprised of only kurds, assyrians and armenians.
Considering that cilicia ( on the med. coast, border of modern day turkey and syria ) was armenian for many centuries, there is one more consideration of your line from the northern Levant area to Italy via the link on the Phoenician traders ( which I have previously linked) .

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## adamo

Where is semagyl though I can't find it off a map, and where did you read that it would be amazing if I could read that myself! : )

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## zanipolo

> Where is semagyl though I can't find it off a map, and where did you read that it would be amazing if I could read that myself! : )


for dna matches and maps etc
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/

post 12 for phoenicians article

and I have more

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## adamo

I still don't know where to find it lol...and what else do you haz?? : ) can't find what section of the website that is its all RussianRussian

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## adamo

I'm L299 but its written for me that I'm PF7443 as a snp I think

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## adamo

I'm going to upload my haplogroup T L299 map soon I just need to figure out how to do it as someone has uploaded a J2b frequencies map I don't know how

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## zanipolo

> I'm going to upload my haplogroup T L299 map soon I just need to figure out how to do it as someone has uploaded a J2b frequencies map I don't know how


use imageshack, its free, u only need to register

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## adamo

I'll get some help and figure it out soon I will post a map of T soon, I just need to get my hands on a computer and not this iPad lol I'm not too good with computers : )

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## Yaan

Haplogorups have absolutely nothing to do with looks and please never write such crazy stuff here again. I am J2a4h and look like a mix of South and Eastern European, my brother is also J2a4h and looks like a mix between Eastern and Central European. I look like the Mom of my Dad(also like my Dad,but the look comes from her) and my brother looks like the Mom of Mom,so both of us look like persons in our family which do not even have y haplogorups. We look like all people in our line, including the women and the men which gene we do not carry,so linking haplogorups to looks is crazy. In 23andme the lighest Bulgarians are E-V13,R1a and J2, the darkest G2a and I2a, this of course means nothing. But lets not speak about looks here. Cheers :)

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## zanipolo

> Haplogorups have absolutely nothing to do with looks and please never write such crazy stuff here again. I am J2a4h and look like a mix of South and Eastern European, my brother is also J2a4h and looks like a mix between Eastern and Central European. I look like the Mom of my Dad(also like my Dad,but the look comes from her) and my brother looks like the Mom of Mom,so both of us look like persons in our family which do not even have y haplogorups. We look like all people in our line, including the women and the men which gene we do not carry,so linking haplogorups to looks is crazy. In 23andme the lighest Bulgarians are E-V13,R1a and J2, the darkest G2a and I2a, this of course means nothing. But lets not speak about looks here. Cheers :)


which post are you referencing this comment on?
or do you have the wrong thread

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## Yaan

I meant the guy T, from Italy Adamo I think was his name, linking black hair and olive skin to haplogorups I would search for the post and also I am saying to him so he knows it has nothing to do, not in a bad way :)

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## Yaan

Here is what he wrote : 
_I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians)._

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## zanipolo

> I meant the guy T, from Italy Adamo I think was his name, linking black hair and olive skin to haplogorups I would search for the post and also I am saying to him so he knows it has nothing to do, not in a bad way :)


i agree that hair and eye colour has nothing to do with haplogroups. my paternal line which is T has a majority of green, grey or blue eyes, some blond and some black, but majority light brown hair.

The only thing that could make some sense on hair colour is , the further east one goes the more black hair dominates.

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## adamo

That's correct to a certain degree because one can inherit from either or both family sides loll

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## adamo

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/imageqxwu.jpg/ Link to global prevalence map of haplogroup T, can someone downloaded it and post it on the site please cant do with iPad lol.

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## Yaan

Can u see it ? T.jpg

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## adamo

Yes! Thank you yaan! : ) these are the only zones on the genographic project 2.0 map that have hg T. It's all yellow zones, or about 10% maybe 15%. It seems it arrived from Africa to northern Saudi Arabia, where one branch split to south-central Iraq and the other to Egypt. The Egypt branch later brought T to the Horn of Africa. On this map, from what I can see, are covered most of Egypt, south/central Iraq, stretches of northern Saudi Arabia and all of Jordan.

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## Yaan

Sure :) But there is two kinds right? 
One is big in Somalia and Ethiopia and Arabs and the other kind(u) is 1-4 % in South Europe and parts of Middle East,Jews ,Switzerland and Austria right?

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## adamo

We would have to consult Zanipolo for more information on this, he knows more than I do on this haplogroup, but yes there is T1 and T2, T2 is the African variety I believe, T1 is found in Middle East parts of Europe, all of this at low frequencies of course. Hopefully he will log on soon and takeaway look at the map : ) from my own personal speculations though I see a link between T and wandering north Arabian Bedouin people's such as the Quraish tribe in which many men are hg T, in the Hejaz regions of western Red Sea Arabia. Many Jordanians are hg T and they are a Hashemite kingdom as many wandering Arabs where in those areas also and Hashemites are linked to Mecca and the prophet Muhammad.

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## zanipolo

> We would have to consult Zanipolo for more information on this, he knows more than I do on this haplogroup, but yes there is T1 and T2, T2 is the African variety I believe, T1 is found in Middle East parts of Europe, all of this at low frequencies of course. Hopefully he will log on soon and takeaway look at the map : ) from my own personal speculations though I see a link between T and wandering north Arabian Bedouin people's such as the Quraish tribe in which many men are hg T, in the Hejaz regions of western Red Sea Arabia. Many Jordanians are hg T and they are a Hashemite kingdom as many wandering Arabs where in those areas also and Hashemites are linked to Mecca and the prophet Muhammad.


I gave you the link on post #9

There is no African variety , the T marker is west-asian ( Russian claim it to be central asian ), basically Iran ( Persia) 

what is T1 and T2?

pre 2008 T was known k2
then it became T1 , T2 and T3 ..........T1 ended up being a private line and disused, T2 became T1a and T3 became T1b.

Now from last year, T1a became T1a1 and T1b became T1a2 
and T1a3 was introduced a Kuwait Saudi arabian line ...a line said to be the Thomas Jefferson line

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## zanipolo

@adamo

whats this one-eyed focus on being Jordanian because they have a higher percentage?

T is a very old marker and would have been more likely a hunter-gatherer marker along with G and others.

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## adamo

I don't know lol genographic project told me 20% of Jordanians. Didn't say anything about Persia, and the map as you saw has no T in Iran. So if I'm T1a1 that means I'm T1a? It says I'm M70 then next I'm L299 mutation. (T1a1). What does all that mean? And I'm T-PF7443 whatever that is, where is that found or originate from? That subclade

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## zanipolo

> I don't know lol genographic project told me 20% of Jordanians. Didn't say anything about Persia, and the map as you saw has no T in Iran. So if I'm T1a1 that means I'm T1a? It says I'm M70 then next I'm L299 mutation. (T1a1). What does all that mean? And I'm T-PF7443 whatever that is, where is that found or originate from? That subclade


The base for T is M184, out of this is M70
PF7443 ?.....is this correct or is it PF7463

Where did you get this map?

northern iranian 2012 percentages of Ydna
Eb1b1b1a1a (9.5%) 
E1b1b1c (1.6%) 
G2a* (1.6%) 
G2a* (3.2%) 
G2a3b2 (1.6%) 
G2c (1.6%) 
J1c3 ( 4.8%)
J2a* (4.8%) 
J2a3 (4.8%) 
J2a3a (4.8%) 
J2a3b (3.2%) 
J2a3h (3.2%) 
L* (1.6%) 
L1 (1.6%) 
L3 (1.6%) 
N (1.6%) 
Q1a2 (1.6%) 
Q1a3% (1.6%)
Q1b1 (1.6%) 
R1a1a (19.0%) 
R1b (3.2%) 
R1b1a2* (1.6%) 
R1b1a2a* (12.7%) 
T (7.9%)


from Grugni

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## adamo

No it is M184 then M70 then I'm L299. ( T1a1) I'm very well T-PF7443 and NOT T-PF7463. The map I posted above on this thread is my genographic 2.0 haplogroup T map.

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## zanipolo

> No it is M184 then M70 then I'm L299. ( T1a1) I'm very well T-PF7443 and NOT T-PF7463. The map I posted above on this thread is my genographic 2.0 haplogroup T map.


is this genographic 2.0 a company ? because I have never seen this type of map in FTDNA, 23andme and Nat geno

PF7443 does not exist in ISOGG which has all markers up to date
the closest markers for T from NAt geno complete SNP testing for T is:
*PF7460, PF7463, PF7464, PF7465, PF7466, PF7480


and last update is
Added PF5547, PF5596, PF5597, PF5618, PF5621, PF5626, PF5629, PF5631, PF5636, PF5637, PF5641, PF5646, PF5651, PF5655, PF7447, PF7471, PF7472 on 11 February 2013,
*

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## adamo

The national geographics genographic project 2.0 I had my DNA analyzed and this is the frequency map they gave me for my hg T. Seems to be spread at 10% across much of Egypt, northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and south-central Iraq if you ask me.

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## adamo

M70 defines T1. It is suggested the older hg T was overwhelmed across the Middle East by incoming E, J and G males. So what doesit mean if I'm PF7443? I'm the only one in the project with this SNP. Hg t seems to be rampant across Saudi Arabia with the Quraish tribes of Mohammad in the Najd/Hejaz regions of north-west/central Arabia in particular having much.

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## zanipolo

> The national geographics genographic project 2.0 I had my DNA analyzed and this is the frequency map they gave me for my hg T. Seems to be spread at 10% across much of Egypt, northern Saudi Arabia, Jordan and south-central Iraq if you ask me.


Did they designate you as Greek for #1 ?, because Nat Geno use DNATribes and there is no south Italian, south Italian is under the term Greek ( from naples to silcily)

I am also surprised they gave you only a H for mtDna as their policy is to give you a subclade as they detect all your maternal SNPs

I can put you in contact with a T project guy who specialises in T in mesopatamia / arabian areas. He is with 23andme but is also active in FTDNA. He actually looked at mine in detail and lumped me in a project called Atlantic-T .

Let me know and I will give you his email address , he will ask you to register with 23andme ( no fee) to discuss in their forums just the T for middle east, he will also present you with a migrational area/zones of your line

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## adamo

I would be honoured to have his email, thanks zanipolo you are a god! : ) yes they only designated me as "H" for some reason, and my admixture of haplogroups was clustered as "Georgian" for some reason...

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## zanipolo

> I would be honoured to have his email, thanks zanipolo you are a god! : ) yes they only designated me as "H" for some reason, and my admixture of haplogroups was clustered as "Georgian" for some reason...


email address sent to you privately. 

hmm Georgian...not Bulkar or Azeri

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## adamo

The assignment of regional affiliation is less precise I suppose, but with y-DNA T and mtdna H I was apparently classified nearest to Georgians...lol

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## Hashimi

> So I guess even though haplogroup T is found in maybe 10-13% of Assyrians, 10% of Druze people, 8% of Armenians, OVERALL it is found abundantly in a large number of these men from West Asia. This is in a sense the global maximum. It seems less to be found in entire populations and more to be found in certain isolated Middle East communities. Where the haplogroup T men overwhelmed or destroyed by haplogroup J1-J2 men and other more common Middle East lineages? Where their levels ALWAYS this low even in the " highest frequencies" of the Middle East? What about Jordan with its massive 21% of T, why all the T in this isolated pocket? Could this be the radiation point, the home of T? I know that T got to the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and Somalia) from Egypt (and then subsequently to Fulbe of Cameroon from Horn of Africa) and it got to high percentage but small isolated pockets of India from the Iranian peninsula but can Jordan be the home of all T? I believe so but this is conflicting because the sister haplogroup of T , haplogroup L only significantly overlaps with T ( even if at, again, low percentages) in Iran thus symbolizing this may be the origin point of T , In Iran, a little more far out from the central Fertile Crescent (Iraq). This is evident if I look at maps of both haplogroup T and L, they overlaps in Iran, albeit, even if at unsatisfiyingly low percentages


Could T group be the result of the Umayyad Empire family. It spread from Iran to Spain (which match the t haplogroup map) and when it was taken over by the Abbasid one they were chased and executed massively. That could explain the spread and the low population. I also think so because many of the Arab families whos known from that family are T1 haplogroup.

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## adamo

I keep looking and re-looking at my T results on genographic project; the three action ally highest frequencies of T are Jordan (15-20%) Egypt (10-20%) Somalia ( 15-20%, a middle eastern backdraft arriving in Africa via Egypt) and Iraq with accounts varying from 7-15%. There are many T's though across Saudi Arabia, Oman, the Middle East in general and even in Europe , all at much lo wer frequencies, the % getting lower as we move away from Arabia/ Fertile Crescent, although there are bizarre higher pockets across Europe, such as Chios island, campania Italy, 10% across parts of central Italy or weird minuscule 20% zones in Austria/Bavaria, 20% on south-western Sicily, a few 5-8% hotspots on Iberian peninsula etc. but Jordan,Egypt, Iraq,Somalia, highest national levels probably; to me it originated in Jordan by the Red Sea, where it was linked to ancient Phoenicians.

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## MOESAN

> I keep looking and re-looking at my T results on genographic project; the three action ally highest frequencies of T are Jordan (15-20%) Egypt (10-20%) Somalia ( 15-20%, a middle eastern backdraft arriving in Africa via Egypt) and Iraq with accounts varying from 7-15%. There are many T's though across Saudi Arabia, Oman, the Middle East in general and even in Europe , all at much lo wer frequencies, the % getting lower as we move away from Arabia/ Fertile Crescent, although there are bizarre higher pockets across Europe, such as Chios island, campania Italy, 10% across parts of central Italy or weird minuscule 20% zones in Austria/Bavaria, 20% on south-western Sicily, a few 5-8% hotspots on Iberian peninsula etc. but Jordan,Egypt, Iraq,Somalia, highest national levels probably; to me it originated in Jordan by the Red Sea, where it was linked to ancient Phoenicians.


_I 'm very amazed when looking at the Y-T distribution (it seems effectively we are speaking about Y DNA and not mt DNA):
some hotpots very far one from another very often near to sea shores, except in some points - the spread suggests founder effects of maritime populations - in Europe, Jews could be important in the inland spreading -Phoenicians could be ONE of the spreaders, but the total distribution don't allow me to tell ALL Y-T were linked to Phoenicia - Switzerland is a problem, because it knew cardial and post-cardial arrivals by Rhône river from Provence and Mediterranea, and TOO surely some heavy persence of Jews so, a more precise SNPs based analysis is needed -
_

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## adamo

I don't think hg-T is linked to Jews, the only high frequency is found in Tras O Montes Portuguese Jews (15%). Maximum frequencies: Jordan (20%) Egypt (16%) Iraq (13%) near Anatolia (10-13% Assyrian populations) Horn of Africa (Somalia 13%) Oman (10%) also in Kurdish Jews (20%) Iraqi Jews (18%) Iranian Jews (14%) (some Jewish diasporas have it) island of Chios off turkey (20%) Samsun (Turkish village) 20% Sicily (5-17%) small pocket of southern Bavaria (20%) small spots across south-central Italy can have up to 10%, Balearics islands off Iberian coast (15%); really weirdly distributed haplogroup, my genographic results are my reference for all this by the way, T may have originated, in my opinion, either on the iranian plateau, Jordan right by the Red Sea near Egypt, or maybe even near northern Saudi Arabia.

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## adamo

To me personally, haplogroup T is linked to the Phoenicians, as it is found in southwestern Sicily, Ibiza, Corsica, the Egyptian coast; all areas where Phoenician maritime expansion took place. The ancestors of Phoenicians where the Canaanites. The Persians account is that the Phoenicians originally came from the erythrean sea (modern Persian gulf, eastern Arabia.) near Bahrain or east-central Arabia southern Iraq southwestern Iran region (Persian gulf). The Greeks for example, spoke of two islands Tylos and Aradus (modern day Bahrain) which boasted they where the motherland of the semitic Phoenicians and held ancient relics of Phoenician/Canaanite temples. The Phoenicians of Tyre in particular had long maintained their ancient Persian gulf origins. They moved from the Persian gulf region towards the Levantine coast near modern day Lebanon/Jordan.

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## zanipolo

> _I 'm very amazed when looking at the Y-T distribution (it seems effectively we are speaking about Y DNA and not mt DNA):
> some hotpots very far one from another very often near to sea shores, except in some points - the spread suggests founder effects of maritime populations - in Europe, Jews could be important in the inland spreading -Phoenicians could be ONE of the spreaders, but the total distribution don't allow me to tell ALL Y-T were linked to Phoenicia - Switzerland is a problem, because it knew cardial and post-cardial arrivals by Rhône river from Provence and Mediterranea, and TOO surely some heavy persence of Jews so, a more precise SNPs based analysis is needed -
> _


Originally T came from K2 which came from K. K came from south Asia, of which the oldest K9 went to south-east Asia and Australia. From south-asia K2-M184 went and settled Iran and parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. M70 a branch of M184 was created (as per these scientists) in the Pamir Knot area, from there the M70 branched out north of the Caspian sea, and south of the Caspian sea. This southern branch arrived in Kurdish/Assyrian areas...from there it went to Europe.
The northern branch went to estonia ( some say cimmeranians had some T ) then gotland, sweden, norway and the faroe and orkney islands. ( there is a paper on this )

The funny thing is that the Greeks say the Dorians came from Pamir in the Himalayas , they migrated along the south Anatolian coast and settled in Samos, Chios, Rhodes, Crete, south Peloponnese and Corfu.......they all hold T ydna haplogroup. The came about 1200BC ( bronze-age migrations )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_Mountains

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## adamo

Zanipolo you deserve a medal for that post, awesome.

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## adamo

So T originated in the Afghanistan/Tajikistan region?

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## adamo

So shouldn't more tests be done on Tajiks, afghans, Iranians, Pakistanis? If this is where T first came from, is there any data on these regions or is data especially scarce over there.

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## adamo

According to my genographic project, hg T is linked to emirian and kebaran culture of the levant (Syria,Palestine,Lebanon) area during the upper/middle Paleolithic.

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## adamo

Does anyone have info on T1a1 (L299) also known as T-M320 in particular? It's downstream from M70 (T1) and T1a.

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## zanipolo

> So T originated in the Afghanistan/Tajikistan region?


Tajiks are persian and not afghan people, basically NE persian

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## adamo

So Tajiks and Persians but not afghans?

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## adamo

This is my genographic description for M70: age of haplogroup, mutation took place: 33,750-19,250 years ago.This step of your paternal ancestors journey took place in the fertile climate of west Asia during the upper Paleolithic. Early members of this lineage where hunter gatherers who took part in Emirian culture and other advances in weapons technology. From west Asia, this lineage spread to north Africa, South Asia, and Europe. Today, it is a significant part of the male lineages of west Asia. It is around 21% of male lineages in Jordan. It and several of its subtypes are present in Jewish diaspora groups such as Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews. In North Africa, it is 6 to 7% of male Egyptian lineages and about 7% of the male Ethiopian population. In South Asia, it is 53% of the isolated Bauris Indian male lineages and 7 to 11 % of Gond indian male lineages. In Europe, this branch contributes to between 5 and 17% of Sicilian male lineages. It is about 5% of male lineages on mainland Italy. It varies between 3 and 24% of male lineages across different regions of Germany. (Then there are photos associated with M70) they say: (photo #1): Some 20% of all Jordanian men are members of the M70 lineage which arose in West Asia during the fertile Upper Paleolithic and remains common here. (Photo#2): Many groups of the Jewish diaspora, including Iraqi Jews and Kurdish Jews, such as this man, share the M70 lineage. (Photo#3): This Iraqi man may be part of the M70 lineage which rose among hunter gatherers in the fertile climes of west Asia. From there, other branches spread to South Asia, North Africa and Europe. (Photo#4): This Baghdad girl lives in an ancient cradle of civilizations. The fertile lands of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spawned early agriculture and legendary cities like Babylon. (Photo#5): Boys from Kashan, Iran live in an ancient centre of human civilization. The nearby site of Tepe Sialk includes evidence of human settlement 8,000 years ago.

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## adamo

Then there is another description for my L299 subclade: age: 26,500-14,500 years ago: This man and his earliest descendants lived in western Asia during the time of Kebaran culture. The wide-traveling hunter-gatherers of west Asia were some of the earliest groups to use and collect cereal grains. The fertile land of the Levant and increasing utilization of grains set the stage for the Neolithic revolution. Though the Neolithic revolution did not push this lineage to dominance as it did others, the new agriculture-based settlements did help it expand across west Asia, and into North Africa, Anatolia, and Southern Europe. Today, the highest frequencies of the lineage are in Jordan (16%) Egypt (16%) Somalia (14%) and Iraq (13%). It is present throughout West Asia, and is about 8% of the Druze male population. Toward Anatolia, it is between 10 and 13% of male Assyrian populations. It is present in England and the Netherlands at trace frequencies of less than 1%. It and its descendant branches are present in Jewish diaspora populations. That's my L299 description, is it just re-stating M70, or describing L299 in particular, I do not know, although this was written as information of specifically L299, the T1a1 subclade of M70 (T1).

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## adamo

And I also posted the heatmap a while ago showing Egypt, north Saudi Arabia Jordan and parts of Iraq highlighted in 10% yellow areas (10-15% of males in those regions are T).my theory is that they haven't done enough tests on central Asians ( afghans, Tajiks, n-e Iranians) to find the real "power core" of T, its probably in Afghanistan or some war-torn/risky area of Tajikistan, that's probably the home of T.

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## adamo

If hg T is in fact linked to emirian and later kebaran culture as my geno 2.0 results tell me, then they are linked to a culture that is named after Kebara cave (northern Israel) and that encompasses parts of the Sinai peninsula , Syria,Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine near the Red Sea.

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## adamo

From what I understand T came from K that came from F. F originated somewhere in southern Iraq, one branch migrated to north-central Iran (where K originated.) then K migrated to Afghanistan. That is where T originated. Then one branch went through India to Southeast Asia and into Australia, another went above the Caspian Sea to Russia and Estonia and another branch went under the Caspian Sea from Afghanistan to Iran to Iraq Syria and the levant right by the Red Sea and Mediterranean ( near Jordan/Egypt).

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## zanipolo

> From what I understand T came from K that came from F. F originated somewhere in southern Iraq, one branch migrated to north-central Iran (where K originated.) then K migrated to Afghanistan. That is where T originated. Then one branch went through India to Southeast Asia and into Australia, another went above the Caspian Sea to Russia and Estonia and another branch went under the Caspian Sea from Afghanistan to Iran to Iraq Syria and the levant right by the Red Sea and Mediterranean ( near Jordan/Egypt).


sounds good

On wiki link T-M184 ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184
the tested people in regards to where they are from, seems to be too old. I have 9 x 3 to 7 step matches with T people from the British isles, I have 4 people with step matches of 4 to 9 with Germans and poles and I have 3 people with step matches of 2 to 7 in Nordic and Finn lands.............all are missing. 
I also have 2 matches in central Italy, 4 matches in western Austria and Swiss lands, 3 matches in the lowlands, the USA matches I do not count but assume they are Irish or welsh migration of early settlement to the new world.
These T people do appear on the semargl site 
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/

even stranger is that I have no South American matches......clearly a lack of iberian markers

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## zanipolo

> So Tajiks and Persians but not afghans?


yes tajiks are persian/modern iranian and not afghans

*Most of Tajikistan's population belongs to the Persian-speaking Tajik ethnic group, who share language, culture and history with Afghanistan and Iran. Once part of the Samanid Empire, Tajikistan became a constituent republic of the Soviet Union in the 20th century, known as the Tajik Soviet Socialist Republic (Tajik SSR). Mountains cover over 90% of this Central Asian republic.*

Russian geneolists are trying to make *T* a central-asian group and not a west-Asian group...this has been talked about since 2009.

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## adamo

Well it's still present in west Asian populations such as Jordanians, but it does in fact seem to originate near Afghanistan/Tajikistan...you are T1a2b, that has an "Atlantic ocean" distribution? Tell me about that, I don't get it, and how could I know better what my subgroup (L299/T1a1) is from? The guy with the email you gave me never answered back lol

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## Alan

> hi
> i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
> i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
> regards



Please be more precise. The Zand is a Laki Kurdish (small Lor) tribe. You are mixing them up with the Bakhtiyaris (Big Lors).

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## zanipolo

> Well it's still present in west Asian populations such as Jordanians, but it does in fact seem to originate near Afghanistan/Tajikistan...you are T1a2b, that has an "Atlantic ocean" distribution? Tell me about that, I don't get it, and how could I know better what my subgroup (L299/T1a1) is from? The guy with the email you gave me never answered back lol


the guy...hmm......its been 36 days since he has been on 23andme site. I will see what I can find out for you.

my T1a2b is the northern migrational route people that the project and genealogist state for me. remember that the north of the danube river in the balkans is classified northern, the alps are northern and then from rhone river west side to the atlantic is northern. Unsure on iberia though.
Whats to tell..
PF places me on the french-italian border
BGA places me on the austrian-italian border
ISOGG states me as eastern alps
Doug , says ancient northern yugoslavia area ( i guess illyrian) 
T project still undecided , but northern european
ALPGEN project state me as Venetic-adriatic
DNAtribes states me as east austrian but beginning in north caucasus on the black sea.
eurogenes guy - on the swiss-italian-austrian border

I used to believe in admixture results , but they are only partly correct, the chromosome results as per some from above seem better

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## adamo

Did your T go north of Caspian Sea to north Europe or south through Middle East,

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## adamo

Alright I appreciate it : )

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## zanipolo

> Did your T go north of Caspian Sea to north Europe or south through Middle East,


I was told, north of caspian and then along the danube river ............but are they sure

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## adamo

Considering that Rene is a Feyli Kurd ( Kurds that live between extreme eastern Iraq and extreme western Iran) maybe this group of 6 million Feyli Kurds are high in the T marker. They live in Baghdad, iraq's diyala province, Khanaqin and mandali, and across the border in Iran manly in Luristan, kermanshah and Ilam provinces. Some believe they are integral to the Kurdish populatin of Iraq, others say they are much more similar to iranian people's such as Lurs. They seem to inhabit the area on the Wikipedia T map that has 9-13% T. The Zand where Feyli Kurds and they had anciently set up in Shiraz.

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## adamo

Ancient Shiraz is intimately linked to the ancient Elamites, and it is was the capital of both the Zand dynasty and all of Persia for a brief time.....where hg T possibly Persian/iranian elites?

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## Alan

> Ancient Shiraz is intimately linked to the ancient Elamites, and it is was the capital of both the Zand dynasty and all of Persia for a brief time.....where hg T possibly Persian/iranian elites?


 No one denied that ancient Elamite homeland is in the province of Fars but the Elamites stretched also in Southeastern ends of Kurdistan into the province of Ilam, where Laki speaking Kurds reside and which was former known as Lakestan. It is well documented that Kurdish tribes lived all the way into the Pars province. Most of them being nomadic Lors. And there are still Kurds in Shiraz. 

The Zand Dynasty was actually of Laki (small Lors) Kurdish origin.




> Die Zand-Dynastie war ein iranisches[1] Herrscherhaus, das 1750–1794 in Persien regierte und aus dem kurdischen Stamm der Lak hervorging.[2]


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zand-Dynastie

Use google Translater.


I also knew a Kurd from Ilam province who is also yDNA T funnily enough he looks very Bud Spencer like.

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## Alan

> Considering that Rene is a Feyli Kurd ( Kurds that live between extreme eastern Iraq and extreme western Iran) maybe this group of 6 million Feyli Kurds are high in the T marker. They live in Baghdad, iraq's diyala province, Khanaqin and mandali, and across the border in Iran manly in Luristan, kermanshah and Ilam provinces. Some believe they are integral to the Kurdish populatin of Iraq, others say they are much more similar to iranian people's such as Lurs. They seem to inhabit the area on the Wikipedia T map that has 9-13% T. The Zand where Feyli Kurds and they had anciently set up in Shiraz.


Well if Rene is a Feyli (Lak) Kurd than he should mentioned that. Since he is a Feyli from Sweden now I am sure he is the person I am talking about  :Laughing:  He looks kinda Bud Spencer.


I don't know if he remembers me.


Well I know a few Feylis and most of the are a blend of R1b, R1a and some J1* + T.


Look you seem to mix things up. "Iranian people" is a general term collecting all Iranian speaking ethnicities and is not only bound to the boundaries of modern state Iran. Ossetians, Tajiks and Pashtuns are also Iranians by wider sense. 

The Lors just a century ago where all considered as major Kurdish tribe. And it is well documented in Iranian and as well Kurdish source of the first century to 16 century AD. In the Serefname written in 16 century Sherefhan el Betlisi mentions the Lors as a major tribe of the Kurds.


throughout the centuries there was a "brotherwar" between the two Lor groups (big and small Lors). The small Lors preserved there original language which is in fact part of the Northwest Irannian group and clustered under Kurdish dialects.

The Kurdish language has two main groups of the Northwestern branch one bigger the Kurdish proper and a secondary smaller Goran-Dimli group.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Tree_v2.0.png

There under the larger Kurdish proper bough you will see Laki.

unfortunately the big Lors through geographic proximity to Persian speakers where influenced by them and through time started slightly turning more and more into the Southwestern linguistic direction. Today they are classified linguistically into the Southwestern branch but distinct to both Persian and Kurdish. 
Though their traditions and clothings are undeniably still Kurdish. They have the typical Kurdish circle dances on weddings while Persians/Iranians do not know this.

the Laks are even more clear, they speak, cloth and dance Kurdish.

Of course it is in the interests of the Iranian regime to convince them the opposite though its clear as water what they are.

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## adamo

I don't look very bud spencer. Lol

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## adamo

Haplogroup T seems to have a "high" in the ancient Elamite region of southwestern Iran. ( on maps anyways) and this is also not too far from where our shirazi friend originates.

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## Alan

> I don't look very bud spencer. Lol



I meant him "Rene" not you  :Laughing:

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## adamo

I know but I'm in hg T also so I thought you where talking about us T's.

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## adamo

I think hg T is linked especially to bakhtiaris from bakhtiaris province near ilam, the southwestern corner of Iran touching extreme southeastern Iraq. They speak a Lurish language. They live in parts of Lorestan, khuzestan and Isfahan provinces. They are descendants of "Fereydun" a national iranian hero in ancient Persian religion/mythology such as Zoroastrianism.

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## zanipolo

> I don't look very bud spencer. Lol


*Bud Spencer* (born *Carlo Pedersoli*; 31 October 1929) is an Italian actor
Spencer was born in Santa Lucia, a historical rione of the city of Naples

*Terence Hill* (born *Mario Girotti*; 29 March 1939) is an Italian actor.
Hill was born in Venice, Italy. 

an unlikely pair who made a nmae for themselves

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## Yetos

> *Bud Spencer* (born *Carlo Pedersoli*; 31 October 1929) is an Italian actor
> Spencer was born in Santa Lucia, a historical rione of the city of Naples
> 
> *Terence Hill* (born *Mario Girotti*; 29 March 1939) is an Italian actor.
> Hill was born in Venice, Italy. 
> 
> an unlikely pair who made a nmae for themselves


yeah I remember the 2 most famous Italian duet.

Ciccio and Franco

Buldozer and trinita, bud spencer terence hill.

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## adamo

Amazing : )

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## adamo

I recently found out I'm P77, a sub-group of T that runs high in Kurdish, Iraqi, iranian and Yemenite Jews. It is speculated that T1a1 either originated In Canaan and then with the Jewish exile to Assyrian/Babylonian lands was absorbed by other mesopotamians or maybe it originated among the Jews when they had already arrived in Mesopotamia and it originated there, either way P77 seems to be high in Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews and Jordanians. What do you guys think?

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## adamo

Did P77 originate in Canaan or in north Mesopotamia?

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## Eldritch

Where are your closest matches found Adamo?

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## adamo

I don't know.

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## zanipolo

> I don't know.


?

who did you test with?

I have tested with Ftdna of which I have 26 matches between step 2 and step 4
13 from british isles
4 from germany
4 from italy
3 from baltic area (pomeranian, estonia, lithuania) 
1 slovenian
1 norwegian

I presume this testing place also did your mtDna


If you went with 23andme, they are just as good

Natgeno....err......well they find a lot of SNPs

genomes ....unsure but I think you can transfer to ftdna

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## adamo

Yeah but I have to pay ftdna thing, I would love to know with who P77+ or L299+ is clustered with, European or Assyrian samples, I wonder.

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## zanipolo

> Yeah but I have to pay ftdna thing, I would love to know with who P77+ or L299+ is clustered with, European or Assyrian samples, I wonder.


what ever search engine you use, you need to read up on advanced searching. you need to find a way, only you know your line.

I found these in a few minutes - all L299+

-ftdna 231809 surname = philipps from devon, cornwall, England
-ftdna 97565 from wales
-ftdna 244570 from ghana ( portuguese descent)
-ftdna 156487 surname = metaxopoulos greece

E8011 from Cantabria spain
E5174 surname Al-khalifa from Saudi Arabia
and one other , a high priest from the Quaraish tribe - I do not know where that is

Semaghl (russian site) has 2 only, both in mexico from Spanish hereditary

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## adamo

Yeah difficult to find extensive information on my subclade....

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## adamo

The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya). According to this study, T has highest age and diversity in the levant.

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## zanipolo

> The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya). According to this study, T has highest age and diversity in the levant.


from the Assyrian project 

N=*107* 06/10/13
24.3%	R1b
18.7%	J1
*15.9%	T*
13.1%	J2
8.4%	E1b1b1
8.4%	G
4.7%	R2a
2.8%	Q1b
1.9%	R1a
0.9%	F
0.9%	L 

as of today.

Checking on Cappodocian line as well for you.

basically this is northern Levant, aleppo area, start of the ancient silk road to China

----------


## adamo

Woah! 16% hg T? Assyrian project, where is this???

----------


## zanipolo

> Woah! 16% hg T? Assyrian project, where is this???


talk to one of the guys in the email

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...t/default.aspx

only 1 x T1a2b
1 x the new T1a3

all the rest are your type

----------


## adamo

I know I'm T1a1, don't know if T1a1a or T1a1b or if in an Assyrian cluster or not.

----------


## zanipolo

> I know I'm T1a1, don't know if T1a1a or T1a1b or if in an Assyrian cluster or not.


write your numbers ( DYS ) down and I see what I can do

the site does split into different groupings

----------


## adamo

What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a 
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"

----------


## zanipolo

> What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:
> 
> 
> 21% T
> 14% G2a
> ...


where you get the numbers from?..........because the guy i told you just sent me an email and he is a 23andme project person.
he stated these numbers as above, plus


*The Sabine tribe could belong mostly to haplogroup T

I think he is from Ibiza or from galicia Spain.

*DYS, ....hundred or so numbers like
DYS393 =13 ..........is a marker with many other markers to distinguish your haplogroup.
Whoever did your test must have given you something

Mythology stated that Sabines are laecomenians people which means Dorians which means tajiks which means from the pamir mountains ............greeks mythology states the dorians from the Pamir knot replaced the myceneans in 1200BC ..............Believe what you want .......I find mythology to much fantasy

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## adamo

Genographic project did, they did not give me DYS whatever that is. Where can I find my DYS?

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## zanipolo

> Genographic project did, they did not give me DYS whatever that is. Where can I find my DYS?


they should give it to you or something.............how else did they predict your type

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## adamo

They basically just said I'm T-M70+ and within it I'm L299+ and classed me as T-PF7443... They ave me nothing else.

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## zanipolo

> They basically just said I'm T-M70+ and within it I'm L299+ and classed me as T-PF7443... They ave me nothing else.


then log in to Nat-geno site and if you have no log account , email them for one since you are a testee.

then IF you want you can transfer your results to FTDNA for free ( i think its still free )


when did you do this test?

----------


## adamo

A while ago, I transferred my results then forgot my code and password .... And the transfer didn't really work ..

----------


## adamo

My results according to ftdna : 

HAPLOGROUP INFOYour Haplogroup Tests Taken
T-M70 : V9+ V205+ V189+ V186+ PF970+ P187+ P166+ P160+ P159+ P158+ P151+ P148+ P146+ P145+ P141+ P14+ P138+ P136+ P135+ P132+ P131+ P128+ M94+ M89+ M70+ M42+ M294+ M272+ M168+ M139+ L566+ L498+ L490+ L470+ L468+ L455+ L454+ L453+ L350+ L299+ L298+ L208+ L162+ L16+ L15+ L132+ F1046+ CTS8004+ CTS3654+ CTS11556+

----------


## adamo

Then they tell me some junk about further testing to see which subgroup I am. Now its currently trying to charge me some 500$ to take a test to see which one of the subclades I am...can anyone help me better? Lol what do the above results mean.... I see whee M-70+ starts then I don't get it

----------


## zanipolo

> Then they tell me some junk about further testing to see which subgroup I am. Now its currently trying to charge me some 500$ to take a test to see which one of the subclades I am...can anyone help me better? Lol what do the above results mean.... I see whee M-70+ starts then I don't get it


I am no expert, but you look like being the old marker of Pages00002 , which is now part of 

*T1a1a* L208/Page2, L905

write to either of these guys and explain you joined FTDNA but forgot ID, they will help


 Gareth Henson [email protected] , Group Administrator Peter Hrechdakian [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator 

from their site
*Results are in for Deep Clade Tests and most clusters have been confirmed as either L208+ (aka PAGES00002) and P77-, or P77+.*
so Pages00002 is now called L208+ , which you have.

The $500 that someone asked for was for a WTY to be done (walk the Y ), dont do anything until you here from them. You could have a unique line like mine and they will pay for ONE SNP test with FTDNA that they choose for you. They did this for me, that is tested L446 before it came out "officially"


from M-184 site
*T1a1a (L208/Page2, L905) Mostly found in western Europe, eastern Anatolia, Iran, Arabian Peninusla, Upper Egypt and Horn of Africa. Some spots in western Morocco, Sahrawis and Canarias.*

----------


## zanipolo

L208+ in Italy

60% of T in Campania
53% of T in Molise, Abruzzo and Romagna
14% of T in Calabria
.................................
elsewhere the majority noted as L208+ is in Armenia and southern England. Looks like a eastern anatolian starting point

----------


## adamo

Is it P77+ or p77- I can't tell, but somehow my code looks very similar to other P77+ people.

----------


## zanipolo

> Is it P77+ or p77- I can't tell, but somehow my code looks very similar to other P77+ people.


you do not have this P77 as its not tested in your results, you have the one below L208+ ( which was called Page00002 before)

+ means tested and confirmed positive

- means tested and not of this mark

call, the guys i mentioned and see if they will test you for P77

----------


## adamo

Yeah but then I have 2 test M320, P77 and like 7 others to see which one i am costing me like 300$

----------


## zanipolo

> Yeah but then I have 2 test M320, P77 and like 7 others to see which one i am costing me like 300$


M320 is the old T1 mark which ended up being a* private marker*. a single person ...unique

your line is the *old T2* , which has L208, P77 etc

my line is the old T3, which is L131 line


so, T1 became private

*T2 became T1a1* group 

and T3 became T1a2 group


check ISOGG t group and you do not need to do all the SNP once you are confirmed in one line , 

as an example I do not do P322 because it does not belong to my line

----------


## adamo

Basically I know I'm T1a1 and within it I'm T1a1a but now the question is wether in T1a1a1 (P77) or T1a1a2 (P321) , and even then I have virtually no information on these two subgroups.

----------


## zanipolo

> Basically I know I'm T1a1 and within it I'm T1a1a but now the question is wether in T1a1a1 (P77) or T1a1a2 (P321) , and even then I have virtually no information on these two subgroups.


you only have *1 option* ...to do a *P77* test...........if you are negative, then you remain at *L208+*
if you are positive for P77 then there are 2 branches only

*P321* which is T1a1a1 ...........then later you can do P317 test

or

do a *Z709* test and you remain at T1a1a1* and wait for this branch to expand.

....but you can take a risk and do the P321 test first which bypasses P77, but if you are negative result then you still need to do the P77 test...if you are postive then you are positive in P77

----------


## adamo

I saw several individuals on genographic 2.0 classed under Z709, I don't know what it is

----------


## adamo

So basically I'm somehow kurdish or Iraqi Jewish as this is the highest % areas of P-77, also the Quaish tribe of Saudi Arabians Nejd/Hejaz regions have quite some P-77, do you have any more info on P-77?

----------


## albanopolis

[QUOTE=adamo;409992]What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?



Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:


21% T
14% G2a
14% R1b1a2a1a2
10% L
10% E-V13
10% J2a
7% R1b1a2
3.5% I2b1
3.5% J1e
3.5% R1a 
3.5% R1b1a2a1a
3.5% R1b1a2a1a1"[/QUOTE
The way the sampling is carried out is very misleading. The population of Italy should be divided in areas with equal number of populations, and out of them should be extracted the same sample size. I am sure the genetists have taken statistics at school but they should tell us, how they did it. People like me are very sensitive in mathematical way the study was carried. Othewise the generalisations are misleading. I have seen the Greek studies and they will tell you how the Egean Islands population Cluster genetically and then they average it out with the rest of the areas to come with national numbers. Bot when you see it closely, Egean Island population is 150 000 you cant average it out with 7 milion that live in south, even if the sample size is the same. South and Central Italy are predominntly middle Eastern extraction. I never thought about it.

----------


## adamo

I already anticipate zanipolo will ignore your post and continue on the correct subject probably : ) but thank you for your input albanopolis

----------


## zanipolo

> I saw several individuals on genographic 2.0 classed under Z709, I don't know what it is


Z709 is only a few months old and IMO is west-med. ( Iberia -Italy ) its found in central and south american old spanish lands.

You are ATM a *L208+* which is eastern anatolia .............either Armenian or Kurdish....maybe even Azeri. 
You do not seem to have south-west asian numbers ( i.e saudi-arabia or Jordan areas )

----------


## zanipolo

> So basically I'm somehow kurdish or Iraqi Jewish as this is the highest % areas of P-77, also the Quaish tribe of Saudi Arabians Nejd/Hejaz regions have quite some P-77, do you have any more info on P-77?


you are not P77 because you have not been tested for it

----------


## adamo

What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...

----------


## zanipolo

> What would south-west Asian numbers be? I guess we can confirm I'm Fertile Crescent kurdish/Iraqi type T? But even then I need to further test to find out...


talks to the guys I linked, I cannot help anymore, I do not know enough

----------


## zanipolo

[QUOTE=albanopolis;410165]


> What's a dys, all I know Is I'm T-PF7443. For anyone who's interested btw, here's the genetic composition of L'aquila, btw how do I figure out what my DYS is?
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup composition of L'Aquila:
> 
> 
> 21% T
> 14% G2a
> ...


the numbers are justified because it deals with ONLY one area, if it was done by nation or split it will be 100% wrong and results for some markers would be diluted.
its like rome numbers would be different from taranto numbers and a person can read it better, but if they where joined then the numbers would be irrelevant . 

Genetics does not recognise national borders, its only people like us that carry on about national borders and what genetic place we are from.

----------


## adamo

It seems that the Elamites where the ancestors of all Persians, so judging on haplogroup T's low but relatively higher frequency in that region, hg T was probably a first, ancestral substratum of Persians ( Iranians) as using the term Persians would be incorrect, considering they where an indo-European group, the Persians where new foreign migrants whereas the Elamites where the original iranian group.

----------


## zanipolo

@Adamo

Haplogroup T (known as Haplogroup K2 until May 2008) is defined by SNP M184 and is found at low frequencies in the Middle East, Europe and North Africa. Most lines in T belong to subgroup T1a defined by SNP M70 which until March 2011 was considered equivalent to M184.
T1a in turn splits into T1a1 (T-L162), T1a2 (T-L131) and T1a3 (T-L1255).
T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.

Recent developments including the Geno 2.0 chip have identified the following major subgroups of T1a:

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)
Most lineages in T will belong to one of these 5 branches. The first two are strictly speaking paragroups and may split into several branches when more data is available.

Thomas Jefferson is believed to have belonged to haplogroup T, based on tests carried out on individuals sharing his paternal line.
For more information on T and the Jefferson family link see:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...08057/ABSTRACT
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6332545.stm

..................................
You are L208, you need to test for either Z709 or P77 ...........you cannot be positive in both. your decision. Once you are positive ignore the other unless the first tested is negative

----------


## adamo

T1a P-77 dominates mizrahim Jews (Iraqi,Kurdish,Iranian) and Ashkenazi Jews. European members of early T1a branches, such as T1a or T1a1, probably reflect older Neolithic gene flow to Europe coming from Jordanians or Assyrians, for example. Once we touch T1a2 (P77), these Europeans cluster heavily with middle eastern/European branches of Jewish diaspora. Within the T network, there are 29 links to middle eastern populations, 27 links to Jews, 8 to Europeans and 5 to Africans. The entire P77 family is predominantly Jewish.

----------


## adamo

Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?

----------


## adamo

The early a branch you are, the more Assyrian/Jordanian you are...anything more downstream ( younger or as young as) P77 (other than T3 kuwait)is probably spread by Jews. Whereas many T1a's are ancient Neolithic non-Jewish.

----------


## Sile

> Jefferson was a T1a, very basal. He clustered with 7 Jews from different countries, 5 Egyptians, 2 Europeans, 1 Turk, 1 Syrian, 1 Jordanian. What populations is Z709 most found in? I thought it was equivalent to P77. If I'm neither and just L-208, what would that imply?


Z709 is before P77 , IIRC its only a few months old

L-208 is found in russian site only in assyria and britain

----------


## adamo

So L-208 is found in Russians, British and Assyrians, P77 is found predominantly in various Jewish communities from the mizrahim to the Ashkenazim, where is Z709 found, any more areas where L208 can be found?

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## adamo

T2 for example, (L131) is found in Northern Europe, east and south Eastern Europe and parts of Anatolia.it is also prevalent among African Lemba, and some people from XInjiang and parts of southeastern Iberia and Tunisia. The main sub-branches of T2 , P322 and P327 are found predominantly in middle eastern Palestinians and Yemenite Jews. In Europe, these sub branches are found in parts of Scandinavia, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands.

----------


## adamo

The T1a2 network is composed of 5 Jewish, 5 middle eastern, 5 African and 5 European links. Some of the most basal branches of haplogroup T (L206) have been found in Syrians (T-M184). As for T1 (M70), it is first attested in Iranian Jews and Iraqi Jews, from where it probably arrived from further eastwards of Iran ( keeping in mind that K2 mutated after the K-M9 polymorphism. ( K-M9 originated in north-central Iran and K2 originated afterwards, probably further east.) As for T1a (PS21) which is first attested as being found in "Iran", it makes up the vast majority of Egyptian, Ethiopian, Druze, Jordanian, Assyrian, Iranian, Moroccan Jewish, Ethiopian Jewish and Ashkenazi Jewish T haplotypes; also most haplogroup T is T1a in Iraqi and Syrian samples, as well as 40% of Turkish samples. A more downstream mutation T1a-P77, is found primarily in mizrahim Jews ( Iraqi, Kurdish, Iranian Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.) so most Jewish T is downstream forms of T1a as well. P77 is found in a minute (minimal) amount of Egyptian, Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian and half of Iraqi T is also P77, not to mention half of Turkish Jews. The P77 network has something like 14 Jewish links, 5 middle eastern, 2 European 1 African link. Downstream of that P330, is found in Assyrians. Downstream of that P321 is found once more, in Syrians and Ashkenazi Jews. P317 further downstream, is found only in "Syrians and italian Jews."

----------


## adamo

It seems that F ( southern Mesopotamia ) gave birth to I,J,H,G and K. K was born in central Iran. It produced P which moved to the plains of kazakhstan and would create R and Q. K also created N and O which would penetrate deep into east Asia, (N would move into Siberia and then to extreme northeastern Europe,). L would move from central iran, through southern pakistan and into India. T would move from central Iran to southern Afghanistan/ extreme east Iran.

----------


## Sile

Paper below is an important ancient history for T

http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-08-01.pdf

it follows this paper below

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013...-caucasus.html

they involve Sumerians, Elamites and the important Uruk people

Note: In Dnatribes, terms are different to most others, example...Greek means , Greece, Albania and southern Italy.
Thracian means Bulgarian, Romanian and Moldovian
Belgic means Kent ( England ) Netherlands, Belgium and parts of NE France

----------


## adamo

Given the inhospitable climatic conditions4 and paucity of archaeological remains3 in Armenia from the millennia preceding the Neolithic, the predominance of Neolithic Y-chromosomes in Armenia suggests that the region was sparsely settled before the arrival of early farmers.5 Settlement during the Mesolithic, such as those observed near Sasun,4 were likely only fleeting. We envision a hypothetical, yet compelling, scenario in which Neolithic agriculturalists from the Levant occupied a vacant Armenian Plateau. This is reflected in the contour plots in Figure 4, where variance estimates indicate a demic decreasing gradient from the Levant toward Armenia, while frequencies illustrate an inverse cline, supporting the idea that the migrants from the Levant constitute a great proportion of the Armenian population. According to this contention, most Paleolithic genetic signals currently detected in the Armenian highlands represent influx of chromosomes from continuously settled areas and not vestiges from older occupations. This is supported by time estimates for Haplogroup T-M184, a clade believed to have originated in the Near East during the Paleolithic,46 as we observe dates in Armenia (~12–13 kya) lower than those in other regions of the Near East, including Iran and the Levant (~20 kya). Such a disparity suggests the Haplogroup T lineages presently observed in Armenia were introduced by migrations that are more recent than those that carried Haplogroup T to the Levant and Iran. Given the difficulties associated with absolute dating, it is also possible that these markers were carried by migrants entering Armenia during an even later era, such as the Bronze Age if the T lineage within genetic contributors has been lost to genetic drift. Interesting information on hg T

----------


## adamo

The haplotypes of the 35 individuals belonging to Haplogroup T are provided in Supplementary Table 4. The distribution of haplotypes within Haplogroup T-M184 illustrated in an MJ network (Supplementary Figure 4) depicts a positioning of clusters composed almost entirely of Levantine individuals in the center of the diagram, with all other groups emanating from this area. This potentially points toward an origin of these haplotypes in the Levant, a supposition that is further supported by the observation of high genetic diversity in the network among levantine individuals within haplogroup T-M184 in the Levant. Time estimates for T-M184 individuals (Supplementary Table 5) corroborate the supposition that the lineage originated in the Levant and entered the Armenian Plateau at a later time, as the dates generated from Levantine (6.2±1.8 kya using Ravid-Amir and Rosset34) and Iranian (5.9±1.3 kya) individuals are older than those yielded from Turkey (5.7±1.2 kya), Sasun (5.0±1.2 kya) and the remaining three Armenian populations (average 3.9±1.0 kya).

----------


## adamo

According to a study on Armenian haplogroups, it seems haplogroup T arrived later there than in the levant or Iran, for example. The center of the T diagram depicts a Levantine network, with all other groups radiating out from there. This potentially points to a Levantine origin for T, further supported by a very high network diversity in the levant as well.

----------


## adamo

Can anyone tell me what this means about haplogroup T1a1a (L208), there are a large number of new SNPs relevant to Haplogroup T on the Geno 2.0 chip. Z709 appears to be the most significant as it splits the large T-L208 paragroup into 2 roughly equal branches - a redefined T-L208* and T-Z709. T-P77 is a subgroup of T-Z709. So I'm either T-Z709 (P77) is downstream of this branch or I'm a redefined L-208, which is what I believe I am, with no further Z-709 mutation.

----------


## Sile

for Adamo

2010 T-M70 only confirmation from Russian site

Had a work colleague decifer, but I am unsure. Female russian from socie ( maybe I need a new translation )

http://gentis.ru/info/ydna-tutorial/hg-t/m70

oldest area by years ( oldest at top ):
irak and syria
then 
anatolia
greece and egypt
spain and russia
central europe
arabia
somalia at 3300 years ago is the youngest

----------


## bicicleur

> hi
> i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
> i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
> regards


the last ice age was not only very cold, it was also a dry and arid climate
many tribes had to look for a refuge

the Iranian plateau was an exception during the ice age : it had about 50 % more rainfall than today
mainly haplogroup G came to Iran for a refuge, but also some haplogroup T

after the ice age the climate on the Iranian plateau became arid again, forcing these people to look for a new territory once again . that was long before the invasion of the aryans

----------


## Sile

> the last ice age was not only very cold, it was also a dry and arid climate
> many tribes had to look for a refuge
> 
> the Iranian plateau was an exception during the ice age : it had about 50 % more rainfall than today
> mainly haplogroup G came to Iran for a refuge, but also some haplogroup T
> 
> after the ice age the climate on the Iranian plateau became arid again, forcing these people to look for a new territory once again . that was long before the invasion of the aryans


Ancestry.com label haplogroup T as "Tigris valley farmers"

----------


## Alan

> It seems that the Elamites where the ancestors of all Persians, so judging on haplogroup T's low but relatively higher frequency in that region, hg T was probably a first, ancestral substratum of Persians ( Iranians) as using the term Persians would be incorrect, considering they where an indo-European group, the Persians where new foreign migrants whereas the Elamites where the original iranian group.


Persian origin is most likely the result of Iranian nomads merging with Elamites. So in other words. without this merging Persians as we know wouldn't have existed.

----------


## adamo

There is significant evidence for a Jewish diaspora origin of hg T. Some of the highest levels of hg T are found in middle eastern Jews, as well as Portuguese Jews. The city of Samsun in eastern turkey is named after Shamshoun/Shimshon, he was a legendary "strong-man" from the tribe of Dan (one of the 12 lost tribes of Israel, including Simeon,Judea,Manasseh,etc.) thus creating a Jewish link between this city. Also, we know that hg T-P77 was probably spread by Assyrians exiling the Jews to their mizrahim communities (Jews of Babylon/Mesopotamia). There is also hg T in Ethiopia, where Jews where also exiled by the Assyrians, for example. The reality is that hg T may e a sort of "definite" Jewish marker, or I may be wrong.

----------


## Sile

latest count from assyrian studies ................T group keeps growing in percentage.

 N=109 (August 2, 2013)
24.8%--*R1b*
18.3%--J1
16.5%--*T*
12.8%--J2
8.3%--E1b1b1
8.3%--G
4.6%--R2a
2.8%--Q1b
1.8%--R1a
0.9%--F
0.9%--L  

Note:
the R1b.....must be part of the very old assyrian-Hittite wars ( my guess).
Nearly 3% of Q.
Low L ...hmmm, .......where did North-Italy get the 8.2% of L and 4.5% of T from?

----------


## adamo

Wow, so in Assyrian populations T stacks between J1 and J2 in importance (put it this way, the J family is VERY important to Assyrian heritage.) So it is a "main" Assyrian marker. At 16% of them positive for T, this makes them competitors with Egyptians,Jordanians and Iraqi/Kurdish/Iranian Jewish groups (16% for all) and iraqis and Somalians are not too far behind (13%).

----------


## Mikewww

> Wow, so in Assyrian populations T stacks between J1 and J2 in importance (put it this way, the J family is VERY important to Assyrian heritage.) So it is a "main" Assyrian marker. At 16% of them positive for T, this makes them competitors with Egyptians,Jordanians and Iraqi/Kurdish/Iranian Jewish groups (16% for all) and iraqis and Somalians are not too far behind (13%).


What are T's frequency numbers for Jordan and for Lebanon.

Originally, if I have it right, Wells et al (National Geno) were saying that T went along with J2 as common in Phoenicians but that would include people in present day Lebanon.

----------


## Sile

> What are T's frequency numbers for Jordan and for Lebanon.
> 
> Originally, if I have it right, Wells et al (National Geno) were saying that T went along with J2 as common in Phoenicians but that would include people in present day Lebanon.


ALL T have = T-M184 marker: 3% in Jordan, 5% in Lebanon, Armenian Sasuntzis 21%, Zoroastrians Persians 13%, SW Armenians/Cilicia 12%.

90% of T have T-M70+ : 28% (7/25) of Lezginians , 16% Assyrians 

Also depends on which of the 2 main branches you inquiring about.

I seen claims of 22% for jordanians, but I have never seen this

----------


## Mikewww

> ALL T have = T-M184 marker: 3% in Jordan, 5% in Lebanon, Armenian Sasuntzis 21%, Zoroastrians Persians 13%, SW Armenians/Cilicia 12%.
> 
> 90% of T have T-M70+ : 28% (7/25) of Lezginians , 16% Assyrians 
> 
> Also depends on which of the 2 main branches you inquiring about.
> 
> I seen claims of 22% for jordanians, but I have never seen this


Thank you, Sile.

My father-in-law is of Spanish descent and is T-M70 of the alpha cluster. We are somewhat swayed by the Phoenician/Mediterranean story that National Geno has presented, but I guess there is a possibility of Jewish descent or perhaps even Moorish descent. I would like to get some kind of inclination but I have no idea what's most likely.

----------


## Sile

> Thank you, Sile.
> 
> My father-in-law is of Spanish descent and is T-M70 of the alpha cluster. We are somewhat swayed by the Phoenician/Mediterranean story that National Geno has presented, but I guess there is a possibility of Jewish descent or perhaps even Moorish descent. I would like to get some kind of inclination but I have no idea what's most likely.


T-M70 splits in 2 in old Anatolia, with T1a1 being mostly southern and T1a2 being mostly northern european.

A person named Humanist on another forum specializes in assyrian Y-dna and T for assyrians is 16%. Assyrians would be also northern lebanese. If this is the link with Phoenicians you seek. Then again phoenicians where in ancient egypt to

maybe your ancestor was like the USA president Thomas , from ancient Egypt to Iberia to Wales

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## adamo

T is not very present in Lebanon (3-5%). As for Jordan, I've seen frequencies between 3 and 21%. The genographic project claims 15-20% T for Jordanians. I've seen studies of 3 to 12% for Palestinians, 8-15% of Egyptians, 6-13% of Iraqis, 13% of Turkish Kurds, but it seems more present in Iraqi Jews, iranian Jews and Kurdish Jews 14-22%. Also found at 12-15% frequencies across much of southwestern Iran.

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## adamo

It is found in many Jewish diaspora groups predominantly Iraqi Jews (22%), Kurdish Jews (18%) and Iranian Jews (14%). It is also found in north Portuguese Jews 15%). Oddly enough, T is rare in Israel itself and in nearby Lebanon and Syria. T is present, but at very low frequencies (3%) in Ashkenazi Jews. To counter this "Jewish" origin link, some 20% of Hashemite Arab Jordanians, also have T. It is a marker present in Assyrian (16%) and Turkish Kurd (13%) populations. It can also be found in many Iranian men.

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## adamo

https://www.google.ca/search?q=haplo...%3B3301%3B2006

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## adamo

according to this map T1a has a more assyrian distribution originating from north-central Iran, pushing to Armenia/Azerbaijan and then spilling into anatolia slightly and the levant (syrians,Lebanese) spilling into egypt and parts of arabia as well. WHEREAS T3 seems to radiate from anatolia from where it spilt into saudi arabians, kuwaitis and bakhtiaris in the middle east.

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## adamo

T2 VARIETY (L162,L208,L1117): 90% of north-central Iranians (high diversity/age) 50% of southern Iranians, 100% of Azerbaijani T, 100% OF armenian (high diversity and age), 100% of Lurs people, 100% of Chechen, 100% of syrian and 92% of Lebanese T is T1a. 100% of Druze, 75% of Egyptian and 90% of Ethiopian. About 57% of Saudi Arabian(high diversity), 75% of Omanian, and 82% of T near Dubai (high diversity). Also about 45% of Turkish T is T2. T1a probably originated in north-central Iran, moved near Urartu (the Armenia/Azerbaijan area) and then dipped towards syria/Lebanon, continuing across the levant/Canaan region and penetrating Africa to reach the Horn of Africa. T3 on the other hand, originated later on, in Turkey. it would move south to many saudi arabian, kuwaiti and bakhtiari bedouin tribes.

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## Sile

I got my 23andme test back...............I still think FtDna is far superior.

anyway here goes .



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

conservative numbers ABOVE
.......................................
speculative numbers BELOW

below is me
99.9% European


Southern European
33.2% Italian
2.4% Iberian
1.0% Balkan
0.0% Sardinian
16.2% Nonspecific Southern European

Northern European
22.6% French and German
0.8% British and Irish
0.0% Scandinavian
0.0% Finnish
17.2% Nonspecific Northern European

1.2% Eastern European
0.1% Ashkenazi
5.1% Nonspecific European

0.1% Middle Eastern & North African
0.1% North African
0.0% Middle Eastern
0.0% Nonspecific Middle Eastern & North African
0.0% Sub-Saharan African

0.0% South Asian
0.0% East Asian & Native American
0.0% East Asian

0.0% Native American
0.0% Nonspecific East Asian & Native American

0.0% Oceanian
< 0.1% Unassigned

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## Sile

> I got my 23andme test back...............I still think FtDna is far superior.
> 
> anyway here goes .
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> 
> ...


T Migrational map and theory by project managers a year ago



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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## adamo

It seems to be present in Italy mostly where Phoenicians settled. For example, many T samples are from Palermo (ancient Phoenician "Ziz", was passed on to succeeding Carthaginians). Mazara del vallo (anciently Phoenician city of Mazar) ,there was also much Phoenician presence near Sciacca.

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## Sile

> It seems to be present in Italy mostly where Phoenicians settled. For example, many T samples are from Palermo (ancient Phoenician "Ziz", was passed on to succeeding Carthaginians). Mazara del vallo (anciently Phoenician city of Mazar) ,there was also much Phoenician presence near Sciacca.


The chart is from 2010 to May 2013, it a combination of older name markers and new ones, so here is a summary of the markers.

All T1a1* + T2 = modern T1a1a ( ie P77 branch)

All T1a2 + T1b = modern T1a2a ( ie L131 branch )

All T1a3 = the new find from May 2013

All T1a* = mix of the top 2 branches

I agree with you on the Phoenicians

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## silkyslovanbojkovsky

Do you know what sub group of HG T Thomas Jefferson had?

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## adamo

Jefferson was T1a.

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## Sile

using y-predictor, below is Thomas Jefferson 

N Haplogroup Probability
1 T1a*-L162(xP77) 94%

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## Sile

> T Migrational map and theory by project managers a year ago
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


from interpretome, 

my results from this company, ...black square is me



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

accurate from what I know ( above)

and



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I don't know why I am in with swedes and finns

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## adamo

What is weird is that 3.8 out of 10 Kazakhs from the Altai region have hg T. And 10% of Tuvinians from Kyzl near Northern Mongolia have T as well.

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## adamo

It's interesting to note some of the youngest branches of T are found in Gaziantep, Adana, Diyarbakir, Harran, Latakia on the Turko-Syrian border.

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## adamo

It can also be found in areas of a turkey such as Antalya, Van in the Kurdish eastern regions, Sivas etc.

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## Sile

antalya has 13.3% since tested in 2012 and not the 3.3% as previously noted.

why the russians believe T-M184 is origin of babylonian and that T-M70 is central asian.

Kazakhs
Kazakh (Turkic)
Kosh-Agachski Raion
19/49
38.8%
[7]
K(xL, NOP). According to Dulik 2011 only T fit.

Tuvinians
Tuvan (Turkic)
Kyzyl and Ubsunur Hollow
10/102
9.8%
[8]




Haplogroup T-M184 is not associated with the R1, G and J lineages that entered Africa from Eurasia relatively recently. Luis et al. (2004) suggest that the presence of the clade on the African continent may, like R1* representatives, point to an older introduction from Asia. *The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).* 

The distribution of haplogroup T-M184 in most parts of Europe is patchy or regionalized; for example, haplogroup T-M184 was found in 1.7% (10/591) of a pool of six samples of males from southwestern Russia, but it was completely absent from a pool of eight samples totalling 637 individuals from the northern half of European Russia.[6] The Russians from the southwest were from the following cities: Roslavl, Livny, Pristen, Repyevka, and Belgorod; and Kuban Cossacks from the Republic of Adygea.

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## adamo

Ok so ....I don't get it; is it the Babylonian ones or the central asian guys?

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## adamo

Or did it simultaneously spring up among Babylonians in particular and central Asians as well?

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## adamo

So please explain to me how it happened geographically.

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## Sile

> Ok so ....I don't get it; is it the Babylonian ones or the central asian guys?


M184 the base ( fountation) of T formed with the Babylonians/Mesopotamians in the Tigris valley as per ancestry, nat geo and others companies stated, the M70 line formed in the pamir mountain areas, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan areas . 
so, everyone states T is west-asian ( justified IMO ) because of the babylonian area and its founder M184, but russians state its central-asian because M70 ( which is 90% of all T ) was created east of the caspian sea.

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## Sile

Antalya is 13.3% T1 haplogroup . the ancient people there where called the Lycians . Under the leadership of Sarpedon they travelled to support the trojans in their wars agaunst the myceneans. 
- Hittites could never conquer their lands
- They where renowned as being great sailors and pirates.
- Ancient tales state they originated from Crete and where originally a branch of the minoans.

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## adamo

So every man with T-M70 has an ancestor that traveled out further than the caspiann which makes sense, because L is found at 10-15% across Pakistan, southern India, and Tajikistan has like 10%, Iran like 5% and T neighboured L but slightly more to the west of Pakistan, towards neighbouring countries to the west.

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## adamo

Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province. 



Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?

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## Sile

> Did the men of T belong to Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex? Consistently I am told that T is linked to Uzbeks, tajiks (iranic group), It has been found in 2/4 samples of Dari speaking Tajik's in Afghanistan's Logar province. 
> 
> 
> 
> Dari (Persian: دری‎ [dæˈɾiː]) or Dari Persian (Persian: فارسی دری‎ [fɒːɾsije dæˈɾiː]) is a name given to the New Persian language at a very early date and widely attested in Arabic and Persian texts since the 10th century.[5] Farsi-Dari, can be classified linguistically as a continuation of Middle Persian, the official religious and literary language of Sassanian Iran, itself a continuation of Old Persian, the language of the Achaemenids.[6][7] In Afghanistan, Dari refers to a modern dialect form of Persian that is the standard language used in administration, government, radio, television, and print media in Afghanistan, as well as in parts of Iran and Tajikistan (where the Cyrillic script is used in place of Perso-Arabic). Because of preponderance of Dari native speakers, who normally refer to the language as Farsi, it is also known as Afghan Persian in some Western sources.[8][9] Dari is the term officially recognized and promoted in 1964 by the Afghan government for the Persian language.[10] As defined in the Constitution of Afghanistan, it is one of the two official languages of Afghanistan; the other is Pashto.[11] Dari is the most widely spoken language in Afghanistan and the native language of approximately 50%[8][12][13][14] of the population, serving as the country's lingua franca.[15] The Iranian and Afghan types of Persian are highly mutually intelligible, with differences found primarily in the vocabulary and phonology. In historical usage, Dari refers to the Middle Persian court language of the Sassanids.[16]
> Dari, spoken in Afghanistan, should not be confused with Dari or Gabri of Iran, a language of the Central Iranian sub-group, spoken in some Zoroastrian communities.[17][18]. Dari is spoken in parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan; could these people be linked to T? What studies are there on T in those mentioned regions?


yes on the areas you mentioned. basically from east of the caspian sea to the aral sea.

aral sea, at end of bronze-age it was 260metres deep, today its about 3 metres deep maximum.

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## Sile

*T* L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• *T** -
• *T1* L206, L490, M193
• • *T1** -
• • *T1a* M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
• • •  *T1a** -
• • • *T1a1* L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• • • • *T1a1** -
• • • • *T1a1a* L208/Page2, L905
• • • • • *T1a1a** -
• • • • • *T1a1a1* Z709
• • • • • • *T1a1a1** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a1a* P77
• • • • • *T1a1a2* P321
• • • • • • *T1a1a2** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a2a* P317
• • • *T1a2* L131
• • • • *T1a2** -
• • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* L446
• • • *T1a3* L1255

August branches of T

latest is that 
*T1a1a2* P321
• • • • • • *T1a1a2** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a2a* P317 
from above will be renamed *T1a4* branch

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## adamo

So T1a is in fact M70, where are the basal T branches most common?

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## Sile

new SNP's for T

*CTS6507, CTS9882 are located downstream of P77. Listed 5 December 2013.
**CTS2157, CTS11796, CTS12108 are possibly equivalent to L446. Listed 5 December 2013.* 

T1a1 clusters along an east-west axis from Iran to Spain. T1a2 is found both in northern Europe and southern Africa but is rarer in the eastern and western edges of T's distribution zone. To date, T1a3 has only been found in Kuwait.


discrepencies found in Nat Geo for T
*L206 and M193 are at the haplogroup T level according ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html and ISOGG_HapgrpK.html, and at the T1 level according to ISOGG_HapgrpT.html. (Only 2 of 11 haplogroup T Geno kits have been scored L206+ and 1 of 11 scored M193+.)*

I have M193+ and L206- ....both are on same branch ..........so I think it means little

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## adamo

What about T-PF7443; there are two of us on genographic project, me and some German fellow, my last genographic PowerPoint slide is T-M70+ followed by L299+.

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## Sile

@adamo

you have as you say I2a

well by *greatgrandmothers father* on my *paternal side*, came from capodistria ( istria ) and is I2c marker, arriving in Veneto under the early austrian rule of 1820

EDIT - I think the austrians where setting up a slavic buffer lands there which became known as the Austrian Littoral - so they where moving people out of these "slovene/croat" areas before they put more slavs there

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## adamo

Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup

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## Sile

> Wow dude....we have virtually the same genetic makeup


I doubt it, your line seem to arrive in Italy by sea, my line as I gathered from various scholars I spoken and wrote to, came into Italy by Germanic/italic/tyrolese alpine area previous to this via bulgaria/romania pontid area, previous to this azeri/south caucasus ( with a small north caucasus chance......balkar people) and earlier still to bactrian/sogdian lands

Azeri/south caucasus would be middle bronze-age

Thats basically what I was told, of course there is some minor flexibility in this

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## adamo

So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?

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## Sile

> So I guess there's more chances my line is Phoenician right?


yes or lived with them and then sailed with them

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## adamo

The big Sile was a sailor

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## adamo

The only man I know that is T-M272* at its most basal is an Avar man (avar live just north of Azerbaijan) who now lives in turkey. These people are originally said to have migrated from the Khorasan region of Iran towards the northeastern Caucasus (Dagestan region more or less).

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## adamo

Sile, what is T-pages00002?

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## adamo

T-CTS6901; which form of t is that?

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## RZA79

FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.






> I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. Those are the paternal haplogroup results I received from the genographic project 2.0. I'm one of those Italians that has jet black hair and olive skin so naturally I always suspected I had some form of Assyrian or Mesopotamian influence in my blood. I was surprised that I don't harbour the J-M172 lineage (haplogroup j2) as this is the typical northern middle-eastern Fertile Crescent haplogroup,( it is also found in 20-25% of italian men.) instead, belonging to hg T this is MUCH rarer ( 4% of Italians). Information on our haplogroup is as scarce as the lineage itself but according to information given to me upon having received my results, haplogroup T is found in 20% of Jordanian men, up to 16% of Egyptian men in certain regions, 5 to 17% of Sicilian males, 13% of Iraqi men, and it is quite prevalent in Mizrahim Jews ( middle eastern Jews) such as Iraqi Jews (18%) iranian Jews (14%) and Kurdish Jews (22%) It is also found in 10 to 13% of Assyrian males near Anatolia. In Europe, it is found in a few isolated hotspots: the Balearic islands off the coast of Spain (16%) , Italy (4%) Sicily (5-17%) and small isolated regions of Germany (3-24%). Surprisingly, Somalia and Ethiopia both have about 14% haplogroup T but I can confirm from my own Assyrian/ Mesopotamian looks that it did not originate there; it must have arrived there from the Middle East. There are also a few tiny hotspots in India belonging to Bauris and Gond Indians but there too the haplogroup T arrived from a different source location, the Middle East. What is so confusing about this lineage is its patchy distribution ad it's low percentages all across the map even in it's middle eastern hotspots of 10-15%. Thus it is difficult to discover EXACTLY where it first originated or whether it is a Jewish diaspora genetics or rare middle eastern blood. I have never seen a study say this but I can 100% confirm that JORDAN males have , on a national level, approximately 21% haplogroup T thanks to my genographic project 2.0 "results" presentation. Other people in the project that HAVE haplogroup T and that was placed very similar to me in the "Our Story" section was :
> 1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
> 2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive

----------


## LeBrok

> FYI- I belong to the J2 haplogroup but came to this thread due to interest about the Y-haplogroup on my maternal side. My cousin (mother's brother's son) recently received his Genographic Project 2.0 results and he belongs to the T-Z710 lineage (M70, L299). Both of my grandfathers' backgrounds are Ashkenazi Polish Jewish. My cousin has olive skin with dark hair and eyes, while his brother is fair with blond hair and green eyes. I hope this helps.


Welcome to Eupedia RZA79

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## adamo

There are Jewish clusters within the T network, that is correct. T is very rare in Ashkenazi Jews (making up significantly less than 5% of their lineages). It's interesting that you point out that you are y-DNA J, as it is the dominant haplogroup in the Middle East (Arabs,Semites,Turks etc.) It is a mutation shared with both Arabs and Jews (Semites). As for T, it is also present in Jewish and non-Jewish populations, and certainly originated long before the creation of the Jewish ethnos, somewhere on the Iranian peninsula. It is far more frequent in mizrahim Jews than in European ones. Welcome to the forum, RZA79! : )

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## adamo

J2 is another interesting haplogroup, I consider it to be the "Mesopotamian one" as it originated somewhere between southern turkey and northern Syria/Iraq. It is the dominant male lineage in the Fertile Crescent (northern Middle East). It is found in 35% of Lebanese, Cretans and Azeris, 30% of Syrians, Iraqis,Georgians,armenians,turks, Cypriots and at a similar frequency in southern Italians and Greeks. It is also found in 20% of Jews. Overall, the J marker represents about half of all Iraqi, Jordanian , Jewish, Lebanese and Syrian lineages, regardless of the subclade. You should be proud of having a subclade of this marker : )

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## adamo

So your a paternal J-L210 and your other grandfather is T-M70+, do you know what your maternal lineages are?

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## adamo

Interesting fact: Zoroastrian fire temples were built on the island of Zanzibar. The Zoroastrian religion originated in Iran.

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## RZA79

Thanks LeBrok!

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## RZA79

Hi adamo, thanks for the warm welcome. My direct maternal lineage is M33, but not sure about my father's maternal side. Perhaps I can convince him to do Geno 2.0. My wife (Hungarian Ashkenazi) is H1b.

While membership in the J2 paternal haplogroup makes perfect sense to me, I was very surprised with my "Indian" M mtDNA....

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## Sile

> Sile, what is T-pages00002?


just a different genetic tester person

all are below

AF = Fernando Mendez, Ph.D., University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona
CTS = Chris Tyler-Smith, Ph.D., The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, England
DF = anonymous researcher using publicly available full-genome-sequence data, including 1000 Genomes Project data; named in honor of the DNA-Forums.org genetic genealogy community
F = Li Jin, Ph.D., Fudan University, Shanghai, China
FGC = Full Genomes Corp. of Virginia and Maryland
G = Verónica Gomes, IPATIMUP Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology of the University of Porto)
IMS-JST = Institute of Medical Science-Japan Science and Technology Agency
KHS = Functional Genomics Research Center, Korea Research Institute of Bioscience and Biotechnology
KL = Key Laboratory of Contemporary Anthropology, School of Life Sciences and Institutes of Biomedical Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai, China
L = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center; snps named in honor of the late Leo Little
M = Peter Underhill, Ph.D. of Stanford University
N = The Laboratory of Bioinformatics, Institute of Biophysics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing
NWT = Northwest Territory, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
P = Michael Hammer, Ph.D. of University of Arizona
Page, PAGES or PS = David C. Page, Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research
PF = Paolo Francalacci, Ph.D., Università di Sassari, Sassari, Italy
PK = Biomedical and Genetic Engineering Laboratories, Islamabad, Pakistan
PR = Primate (gorilla and chimpanzee), Thomas Krahn's WTTY
S = James F. Wilson, D.Phil. at Edinburgh University
SA = South America, Theodore G. Schurr, Ph.D., Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
TSC = Gudmundur A. Thorisson and Lincoln D. Stein, The SNP Consortium, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, Cold Spring Harbor, NY
U = Lynn M. Sims, University of Central Florida; Dennis Garvey, Ph.D. Gonzaga University; and Jack Ballantyne, Ph.D., University of Central Florida
V = Rosaria Scozzari and Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “Charles Darwin” , Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy.
VL = Vladimir Volkov, Tomsk University, Russia
Y = Y Full Team using data from the 1000 Genomes Project
YSC = Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.) of Family Tree DNA's Genomics Research Center
Z = Gregory Magoon, Ph.D., Richard Rocca, Vince Tilroe, David F. Reynolds, Bonnie Schrack, Peter M. Op den Velde Boots, Ray H. Banks, Roman Sychev, Victar Mas, Steve Fix, Christian Rottensteiner, and an anonymous individual, independent researchers of publicly available whole genome sequence datasets, and Thomas Krahn, MSc (Dipl.-Ing.), with support from the genetic genealogy community.

----------


## adamo

Mtdna M is way "out there" for a middle easterner, but it just comes to solidify that you aren't European in terms of genetic composition.

----------


## adamo

Also, your wife seems to be a rare Jew with a more European maternal side. Your markers though are overwhelmingly middle eastern from the little we know, with an additional M marker thrown in there (I don't know how it got in a Jew) which seems to have an Indian/southeast Asian center of weight, although basal M1 seems to be found in Egypt, the Horn of Africa and a small portion of the Arabian peninsula , it has North African + mild middle eastern presence. All other forms of M past M1 (M2 and etc.) seem to have India as a center of weight.

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## adamo

Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.

----------


## Sile

> Your wife's mtdna may make sense due to her being Ashkenazi Jewish (east-Central European Jews) , thus I postulate her ancestors had contact with Hungarians on the maternal side.


Hungarians came from the Ural mountains, are you saying central asians or the much much later magyar hungarians?

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## RZA79

Adamo- do you have an academic background in genetic anthropology or did you gain all your knowledge from personal interest and practice?


And are you saying that you feel my M mt-DNA more likely originates from a westward migration from India to the Near East in ancient times, rather than admixture with Eastern Europeans in relatively more modern times? Apparently the M33c subclade is somewhat commonly found in Belarus/Russia.

My outward features are more typically northern European- I'm 6'2" (188 m), fair skin, light hair, blue eyes. But this seemingly contrasts with my autosomal DNA makeup, according to NG Geno 2.0 and with the analysis you made, based on my haplogroups.

Mediterranean: 59%
SW Asian: 20%
N European: 16%
NE Asian: 3%
Subsaharan Africa: 2%

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## RZA79

Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!

What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.

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## Sile

> Interesting point on my wife's mtdna!
> 
> What do you postulate regarding your T1a1a3? What region of Italy are you from? Beautiful country by the way.


so, your uncle is *T1a1* L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454, Found in northern Anatolia and Germany. why are you talking about your J marker?

Your uncle would have come from anatolia either via the danube or via the pontic steppes

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## John123

So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.

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## Sile

> So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.


I agree with a Phoenician origin, 

pisans where involved heavily in merchant trade in the levant, engaged in the crusades and had a "warehouse" in pala in constantinople. The genoese basically destroyed the pisan merchants by the 13th century.

you never know , your pisan line could be associated with the ibelins  :Shocked:  
from the film...kingdom of Heaven
*The Ibelin family rose from relatively humble origins to become one of the most important noble families in the Crusader states of Jerusalem and Cyprus. The family claimed to be descended from the Le Puiset viscounts of Chartres, but this appears to be a later fabrication. They were more probably from Pisa Italy, the name 'Barisan' being found in Tuscany and Liguria related to Azzopardi family.*
They originally took a lot of their people( household) back with them to Italy once their lands in the levant got taken by the saracens

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## Sile

> So I have created a new account based on the fact that my previous one has been blocked by one of the more active administrators (probably lebrok or Maciamo) which is quite disappointing and deceiving actually. Sile, I am saying there may have been contact with regular Europeans (Hungarians). Your M33c is difficult to figure out as it is far downstream from M1. I postulate a Phoenician origin for my T1a1a3. This line hails from Caserta region of northern Campania. My other side is from the Pisa region with a very different paternal signature.


what is this M33c? is this your Italian or ?

I found this
M33c seems to be the clade related to *Belarus, and Ashkenazi Jews in the Lithuania/Belarus/Russian region*.

There is also a mtDNA M* project in Family Tree DNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/M%2 ... Haplogroup
Background
Family Tree DNA's haplogroup description of M: Haplogroup M cluster has been characterized as generally of east Eurasia—a geographic region that includes south Asia, east Asia, and Australasia.

this talks about M33c in India , but I see no M33c in the tree
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0007447

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## John123

No Sile, my pisan side is I2a3 paternal. Southern italian (south-central) is T1a1a3.

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## John123

M33 belongs to RZA79 not me. Again, I'm typing from an iPad so bear with me it takes a long time to type things out. Also, RZA79's cousin is T-Z10, which I know has both middle eastern and Jewish clusters on ftdna, same for Z709, it is one of the T subclades that is most present in Jews (T-P77).

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## RZA79

Sile: I initially explained my interest in the T1a1 haplogroup despite belonging to J2 and then adamo was nice enough to give me general information on J2, then elaborate on my personal background. I hope you don't mind me going off topic from the thread.

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## Sile

> No, my account was blocked. I know because of the "denied access" error code I received. I don't give a rats patoonia who I pissed off, there gonna fix this issue.


ok, i was confused in that I thought you where also RZA79

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## RZA79

Obviously all we can do is speculate, but a Phoenician origin seems the most logical based on history and geography. Have you considered the possibility of descent from Near Eastern POWs or slaves taken to ancient Rome, then later absorbing into the Roman/Campanian general population. Or perhaps descent from expelled 15th century Sicilian (or even Spanish/Portuguese) Jews who became neofiti? I've read that Ferdinand I of Naples protected these Sicilian exiles. Maybe it's just my personal bias :)

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## John123

Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).

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## John123

Slaves taken to Rome or near eastern POWs are "way out there" suggestions. I would think of it more like my T marker being part of the natural southern italian landscape, having arrived via some Phoenician ancestor to the general region long ago. I highly doubt it has anything to do with Sephardic or Portuguese Jews, who seem to be higher in the younger T1b variants (T2).

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## RZA79

I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?

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## Sile

> I'm confused with the differing nomenclature between Geno 2.0 and FTDNA. Is T-PF7443 different or more precise than L299? I thought my maternal side was T1a, not T1b?


You confusing yourself and everybody else

Ydna ( paternal)
*T* L445, L452, L455/PF5670, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129
• *T1* L206, L490, M193
• *T1a* M70/Page46/PF5662, Page78
* T1a1* L162/Page21, L299/PF5675, L453/PF5617, L454
• *T1a1a* L208/Page2, L905
 • *T1a1a3* PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458

Above is your uncle's line if he has PF7443.........basically your uncle has one or more markers of every line in his ydna to get to T1a1a3


Do you have also a Maternal T marker which is completely different from the paternal T marker *?*......see maternal below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28mtDNA%29

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## Sile

> Sure; it's just like the J2 marker: upon being positive for it, one must check if it is of Jewish origin. But many non-Jewish Cretans, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians are also positive for J2. So is my T of Jewish origin? Could be, based on the fact that it is the T marker. But T probably originated 30,000 years ago on the Iranian peninsula. J2 originated between southern turkey and northern Iraq. As for how my particular subclade clusters, I suspect a Phoenician origin as the only other people I know with T-PF7443+ are from Mediterranean Europe (a southern spaniard, a canary islander, a southern Sardinian, me).
> These locations were all visited by the Phoenicians of Lebanon. In fact, everywhere where the Phoenicians visited has slightly inflated T frequencies. Also, I am a T1a variant, which could be signal of Neolithic arrival too Europe some 5,000-10,000 years ago; most T1b's though (downstream) are associated with medieval Jews in Europe. I for one, have no known Jewish ancestry and I've tested on ftdna for this. Take P-77 for example; it is very present in mizrahim Jews (Iraqi, Kurdish and Iranian Jews) that never left the Middle East. This could mean the T marker was brought there via the general Canaan/levant region. Within T-P77, according to ftdna, you'll get different clusters made up of Ashkenazi Jews, mizrahim Jews and other non-Jewish populations (Jordanians, Saudis, Kuwaitis and Omanis).


Every marker has a small jewish percentage in it, i cannot understand you, that if you say T is 30000 years old, how does it match with jews, when Judaism is only 6000 years old. the numbers do not match. Makes zero sense to me.
Sorry, I believe there is* NO* such thing as a jewish marker, no such thing as a slavic marker or Germanic marker etc etc

Either your marker was part Phoenician or it went with the Phoenicians.

T1b, which I am.....is stated by genetics as the northern branch of T and my tests reveals this. The lowest part of the world I sit is in chios island or ancient lycians , everything else is north of this line. the amazing thing is that I have less than 1% iberian, zero african, ........basically as per Ftdna 100% European and 99.8% European by 23andme

below are the basic 5 branches of T
3 with T1a and 2 with T1b

T-L208 (T1a1a* on the current ISOGG tree http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html)
T-Z709 (T1a1a1*)
T-P77 (T1a1a1a)
T-P322 (T1a2a)
T-L446 (T1a2b)

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## John123

So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.

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## Sile

> So then resume to us everything you know about T, I can't seem to find much info on it anywhere. I remain highly unsatisfied with my understanding of my own genetic group.


there are papers to read on the bottom of 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

and
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

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## Goga

Haplogroup T can be originally from the Persian Gulf before it was flooded 9,500 years ago !   http://historycycles.org/flood.html

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## John123

I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.

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## Sile

> I've glanced both those documents hundreds of times Sile.


My theory is that T originated between and including Zargos mountains to the caspian sea SE area ( including modern Tehran)........which is why I associated the marker with more modern tribes of Bactrian and Parthian

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## John123

Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?

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## Sile

> Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?


HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GOING TO ASK ME THE SAME QUESTIONS?

will you stop if i agree with your philosophy ?

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## John123

I asked if you knew of any direct sources claiming that T has officially "the oldest" haplotypes on the Iranian peninsula. What the **** did you not understand?

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## Sile

> Do you know of any particular studies mentioning age-diversity of T in Iran or the levant? These two regions show the oldest T diversity as compared to younger Egyptian and Turkish samples but the youngest are on the Arabian peninsula, Horn of Africa and Europe if I'm not mistaken. In other words, is there a direct proof that T is oldest on he Iranian peninsula?


No, you tell me

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## John123

I'm always telling everyone; and then getting banned for it, sorry for my completely unprofessional attitude, don't answer that as it embarrasses me completely to lose my composure there.

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## RZA79

Sile: Yes I'm confusing me, but no need to spew insults about me confusing everybody else. I'm brand new to this site and the field itself. Please be patient with me, but if I'm annoying you, you are free to ignore my posts.

Despite being an amateur, I do know that I do not have any mtdna T markers and have never brought this up. When I said T on my maternal side, I meant all the males on my mother's side (uncles, cousins, etc) have T Y-DNA.

I initially thought Adamo/John123 had L299 just like my family, hence my "out there" theories.

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## RZA79

Sile: I'm not saying T matches solely with Jews at all! Of course it's older than the 3000+ years of Jewish civilization. I think when you said 6000 years you're confusing things with the Judeo-Christian age of the Earth, according to literal interpretations of the Bible. I'm also not saying that Adamo has a "Jewish" marker, but simply that besides the conventional wisdom of a Phoenician origin to his specific family history, it's possible that his relatively recent forefathers could potentially have reached southern Italy by other means, including a Jewish background of Judean slaves brought to Rome ~2000 years ago (I believe hundreds of thousands came to Rome and most blended into the population) following the destruction of the Second Temple or Sicilian Jews in the 15th century. It could even be from Saracen pirates, it's anyone's guess.

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## John123

Highly doubt it; I've tested for Jewish ancestry via ftdna recently and I have none. Saracens (Arabs) seems more likely to me. If a southern italian is positive for J2, does that make him Jewish? No, it likely makes him Ancient Greek, something that is very common in the southern half of the peninsula. T wasn't brought by Greeks that's for sure, it has a middle eastern source. Anything is possible, but I put my $ on a Phoenician non-Jewish origin.

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## John123

My family name is Latinized (standard italian) whereas most members of Italo-Jewish communities have retained their Jewish surnames or culture/practices/beliefs. My family traces to the same village in Italy for some 800 years at the least on the paternal side, and the record only runs out because of distance from present times. Thus I suspect them having been there for over 1000+ years, effectively ruling out medieval Jews or Judeo-Sicilian theories. I have tested for Jewish ancestry and have something like 1% of it, which I personally won't take as being a significant sign of Jewish ancestry. Due to these factors, notably a very long presence of my ancestors on the italian peninsula, I will shoot for either a Phoenician origin or simply a product of Neolithic migrations towards southern italy. With a fully italian name that sounds quasi French (most italian names do) and no recent history of Jewish relation, I feel my ancestors were present on the italian peninsula long enough to have been heavily assimilated and latinized, probably arriving some 3,000-5,000 years ago to southern italy.

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## Sile

> My family name is Latinized (standard italian) whereas most members of Italo-Jewish communities have retained their Jewish surnames or culture/practices/beliefs. My family traces to the same village in Italy for some 800 years at the least on the paternal side, and the record only runs out because of distance from present times. Thus I suspect them having been there for over 1000+ years, effectively ruling out medieval Jews or Judeo-Sicilian theories. I have tested for Jewish ancestry and have something like 1% of it, which I personally won't take as being a significant sign of Jewish ancestry. Due to these factors, notably a very long presence of my ancestors on the italian peninsula, I will shoot for either a Phoenician origin or simply a product of Neolithic migrations towards southern italy. With a fully italian name that sounds quasi French (most italian names do) and no recent history of Jewish relation, I feel my ancestors were present on the italian peninsula long enough to have been heavily assimilated and latinized, probably arriving some 3,000-5,000 years ago to southern italy.


The italian government "forced" names to be italianized, up until mussolini times. They are just *racists*.
One of my relative was documented in 1780 as Pelligrin .........forced name change to Pelligrini ........and now revert back a decade ago ( after much italian government delays ) back to original. 
you see more J and K in surnames when before where forced into i and ch

Test with Doug how long your marker has been in Europe, then you can make that 3000 year claim

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## John123

That's cool. How can I contact "Dougie?" XD

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## Sile

> That's cool. How can I contact "Dougie?" XD


http://www.isogg.org/wiki/McDonald%27s_BGA_project

When you write to him , you need to tell him your current location in the world ( where you live) and *not* where you came from

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## RZA79

Thanks for explaining, you make a convincing case. I also falsely thought you had the same markers as my relatives, hence my theories.

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## John123

No problem : )

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## Sile

my ancient tree


green boxes are my positive SNPs

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## Sile

From my post #239...........the only one positive SNP which fundora has and I do not have is L455/PF5670 ( which is in the T bracket of SNP's )

The ftdna tree is corrupted in this point in time 

The following Tree from April 2014 is the only confirmed tree............Error examples, CTS11984 appears in the T1a1 group ?, Pages00113 is a L marker, L25 is a J marker ..........and other errors



*T1a2.*.........*L131*.......[19/19] (between T1a2 and T1a2b–1:*CTS2157*[3/3],*CTS11796*[3/3],*CTS12108*[3/3])

from Germany
from East England
from Mordovia
from France
.................................................. .....................

*T1a2a* .........*P322*[2/2],*P328*[1/1]

from Norway
from Netherlands
.............................
*T1a2b*...........*L446*[10/10]

from Germany 
from Italy 
from south England 
from Czech
................................
*T1a2b–1*..............*PAGES00011*[1/1]

.............................
*T1a2b-2*................*L1322/CTS549/PF5598*


so, Pages00011 and L1322 should be the next to step further down from the L446 branch

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## Sile

latest numbers for kurds and assyrians for T and others

*N=157 N=126 
KRD ASY 
7% --25% -- R1b
30% --13% -- J2
15% -- 2% -- R1a
5% -- 14% -- T
16%-- 8% -- E
11% -- 17% -- J1
0%-- 4% -- Q1b 
3%-- 1% -- L
3% --1% -- I
7% --9% -- G
0% --2% -- F
3% -- 4% -- R2
1% -- 0% -- H
1% -- 0% -- R1*

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## Giacomo

> I'm italian from campania province southern Italy. I also have haplogroup t (M70) lineage and my sub-group is L299. 
> 1.An italian man from Rofrano city, Salerno , campania , southern Italy
> 2. An Assyrian Iraqi man from Nineveh , Iraq 3. A Jew from Poland. 4. A man from Lucca, Italy. 5. Ashkenazi Jew from Germany/Austria. 6. A second polish Jew. 7. Man from Urmia , Iran ( according to personal family stories he may be a Kurdish Jew). 8. An American man who's ancestors came from England for as many generations as he can remember. 9. 10. Two men from Peru and El Salvador that believe they have Sephardic Jewish roots. 11. Me. 12. You. So there you have it, 12 individuals from various different ethnic origins that are haplogroup T (M70) positive


Hello Adamo, I am the son of that man from Lucca. I suggest that this subclade, since it is found also in Anatolia, and we are from Tuscany and Campania, is connected also with the Etruscans coming from Anatolia and inhabiting Tuscany and Campania (including the region of Rofrano, Cilento, mentioned by the Italian-American of the Genographic). Which is exactly your area of origin in Campania?

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## Giacomo

I add a quotation from an abstract citing K2-M70 as an Etruscan haplogroup found in Tuscany and Anatolia:
*
A. Piazza, N. Cerutti et al : Origin of the Etruscans: novel clues from the Y chromosome lineages. 
Quote:
...Here we show the genetic relationships of modern Etrurians, who mostly settled in Tuscany, with other Italian, Near Eastern and Aegean peoples by comparing the Y-chromosome DNA variation in 1,264 unrelated healthy males from: Tuscany-Italy (n=263), North Italy (n=306), South Balkans (n=359), Lemnos island (n=60), Sicily and Sardinia (n=276). The Tuscany samples were collected in Volterra (n=116), Murlo (n=86) and Casentino Valley (n=61). We found traces of recent Near Eastern gene flow still present in Tuscany, especially in the archaeologically important village of Murlo. The samples from Tuscany show eastern haplogroups E3b1-M78, G2*- P15, J2a1b*-M67 and K2-M70 with frequencies very similar to thoseobserved in Turkey and surrounding areas, but significantly different from those of neighbouring Italian regions. The microsatellite haplotypes associated to these haplogroups allow inference of ancestor lineages for Etruria and Near East whose time to the most recent common ancestors is relatively recent (about 3,500 years BP) and supports a possible non autochthonous post-Neolithic signal associated with the Etruscans.




European Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 15 supp. 1 June 2007, session C.17, pg. 19.*

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## isatis

Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am *T1a* M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......

my opinion:
we have some old culture who can be T like:
-sumerians
-elamites
-jiroft culture 
-kulli culture

but you have to know, in the old levante area were Indo-Europeans not semitic people, the people know speaking semitic languages and got probable more semitic race now, but before semitic people came to this area, they were indo-europeans....

only the semitic people came over egypt to israel, all other people were coming over horn of africa/persian gulf
so amorites, philistines, hurrians, mitanni, kizzuwatna, hittites, arzawaians were all indoeuropeans not semitic
especially the western sience says amorites/phonecians are semitic, iranian science they were indoeuropean, but the etymology is indoeuropean!
but also we have a lot of questions, why the fulbes have a lot of T, and why east indians have a lot of T
the semitic people ruled over the levante area, so they got all semitic languages
the old persians (not iranians(after splitting)) were coming from the "hamun lake"
we don't got enough tests from iranians/afghanians/tajiks and so on......we need more tests
where is the connection from fulbes and east indians, where between phonecians and hittites

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## isatis

Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am *T1a* M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......

my opinion:
we have some old culture who can be T like:
-sumerians
-elamites
-jiroft culture 
-kulli culture

but you have to know, in the old levante area were Indo-Europeans not semitic people, the people know speaking semitic languages and got probable more semitic race now, but before semitic people came to this area, they were indo-europeans....

only the semitic people came over egypt to israel, all other people were coming over horn of africa/persian gulf
so amorites, philistines, hurrians, mitanni, kizzuwatna, hittites, arzawaians were all indoeuropeans not semitic
especially the western sience says amorites/phonecians are semitic, iranian science they were indoeuropean, but the etymology is indoeuropean!
but also we have a lot of questions, why the fulbes have a lot of T, and why east indians have a lot of T
the semitic people ruled over the levante area, so they got all semitic languages
the old persians (not iranians(after split)) were coming from the "hamun lake"

----------


## Sile

> Ciao guys, let me tell you, that I got a Y DNA test few years ago and I am *T1a* M70 (via ftdna). My father line is from Yazd (Iran) and 200 years ago my family were Zoroastrians. So you have to know that since Islam came to Iran, Zoroastrians only marriage with Zoroastrians. Also was Yazd a not important city to conquer for enemies because it's only desert. And Yazd was also a Diaspora point for all religions (sp. Jews) (google Moshee Katzav) a lot of politican of Israel are coming from Iran/Yazd. So actually this area looks very original and they people speaking more clean persian than other Iranians. Yazd and north of Kerman are closed together. Actually we have only 3 areas were the old persians resided, Shiraz, Kerman, Yazd. All other provinces of Iran are more meds/parthians/bactrians and so forth......
> 
> my opinion:
> we have some old culture who can be T like:
> -sumerians
> -elamites
> -jiroft culture 
> -kulli culture
> 
> ...


Hi

I have always suspected Zaroastrians ( the worshippers of fire ) to have something to do with T, but I thought more around the BMAC area or the Ariana area of eastern Persia.

I doubt very much that T was semitic because it would mean that so to must L be semitic ( LT-P326 go hand in hand for many many centuries before they split apart )

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## Sile

There is a little bit of an article of a T1 branch which is the only one to go to egypt from the levant ...see link

http://www.academia.edu/3642572/Unra...Neolithisation

This is the T-L162 line or some prefer the T1-P77 ( not my line )

----------


## Caucasus

I also found out I belong to T Haplogroup. I was born in Azerbaijan. According to little research I have done, this haplogroup originated in Zagros mountains. Its high incidence among Kurdish Jews, Assyrians, Lurs etc. further strengthens this argument. It is most encountered in communities that have been isolated for centuries from the outside world. 
It feels great to know other members belonging to this rare group!

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## Alpenjager

> I also found out I belong to T Haplogroup. I was born in Azerbaijan. According to little research I have done, this haplogroup originated in Zagros mountains. Its high incidence among Kurdish Jews, Assyrians, Lurs etc. further strengthens this argument. It is most encountered in communities that have been isolated for centuries from the outside world. 
> It feels great to know other members belonging to this rare group!


These incidences of T belong to different branches of T, and are due to separated demographic events but have nothing to do with origin. To predict origin is most important the diversity.

You can see this diversity by looking into my phylogenetic tree work here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

----------


## Sile

> Hi
> 
> I have always suspected Zaroastrians ( the worshippers of fire ) to have something to do with T, but I thought more around the BMAC area or the Ariana area of eastern Persia.
> 
> I doubt very much that T was semitic because it would mean that so to must L be semitic ( LT-P326 go hand in hand for many many centuries before they split apart )


origin of zarostrian is from gonur tepe turkmenistan

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## Sile

> These incidences of T belong to different branches of T, and are due to separated demographic events but have nothing to do with origin. To predict origin is most important the diversity.
> 
> You can see this diversity by looking into my phylogenetic tree work here:
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png


I believe you should consider T1a2-CTS1848+ as a celtic marker especially since we have it appearing in Belgium and south Germany..........the Andulusi seems later , maybe celtic migration

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## Salento

@Sile 
Do you have any Info on Z19945?
We both have some ancient Illyrian (I think), and there’s not that many of us. Could it be that there’s the Haplogroup connection with them?

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## Sile

> @Sile 
> Do you have any Info on Z19945?
> We both have some ancient Illyrian (I think), and there’s not that many of us. Could it be that there’s the Haplogroup connection with them?




These are ancient sardinian sample....second one is ours

All other T1a2 ancient I found are northern balkans or beyond

You are the closest to me from the south of europe, I have nobody else in southern italy or southern Balkans

----------


## Alpenjager

> These are ancient sardinian sample....second one is ours
> 
> All other T1a2 ancient I found are northern balkans or beyond
> 
> You are the closest to me from the south of europe, I have nobody else in southern italy or southern Balkans


Sile, they are not ancient sardinians but modern sardinian samples.

----------


## Salento

CTS8862 - Z19945 - CTS1848 
Some Geo Locations.IMG_8612.JPG
Now. I could theorize a migration.

----------


## Sile

add reddick ............next to myself in markers
his story
*My Reddicks are German in origin, having had the surname recorded as Radick upon arrival in Savannah, GA in 1737. Back in the Odenwald region of southwest Germany the name had been Rettich / Rettig and a century earlier the family was named Retgen. Rettich is German for the vegetable radish.* 
origins in Odenwald germany
.....................................
Do you have a cognome ...Benedetto ...from Toretto Italy ............mother German ..................


....................................
since z19945 formed in 1460BC ..........I would like to know how many steps are there between us

----------


## Salento

Never mind. Got it.

----------


## Sile

> Never mind. Got it.


I see you are now in my group in ftdna T project.......but we differ by over 20 ...........we may have split apart on the creation of Z19945 circa 1460BC

----------


## Salento

> I see you are now in my group in ftdna T project.......but we differ by over 20 ...........we may have split apart on the creation of Z19945 circa 1460BC


Not disputing your assumptions, 
Z19945 is 3100 years old, how do you know so precisely (1460BC) when we may have split apart. (80 Years after the creation)
STR value Differences maybe? Still ...
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Z19945/

----------


## Sile

> Not disputing your assumptions, 
> Z19945 is 3100 years old, how do you know so precisely (1460BC) when we may have split apart. (80 Years after the creation)
> STR value Differences maybe? Still ...
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Z19945/


because it says 3100ybp

ybp = year before present
Before Present (BP) years is a time scale used mainly in geology and other scientific disciplines to specify when events occurred in the past. Because the "present" time changes, standard practice is to use *1 January 1950* as the commencement date of the age scale,

3100 years from the year 1950

----------


## Salento

> because it says 3100ybp
> 
> ybp = year before present
> Before Present (BP) years is a time scale used mainly in geology and other scientific disciplines to specify when events occurred in the past. Because the "present" time changes, standard practice is to use *1 January 1950* as the commencement date of the age scale,
> 
> 3100 years from the year 1950


I was referring to something else, but this is also good to Know. 
I guess we add 68 Years for YBP.
Thank You.

----------


## Salento

It doesn’t matter.

----------


## Sile

This paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692336/
.
looking at Albanians from Brescia ......of which there is 83 in number are split as
.
E1B1B1 = 27
J2 = 14
K = 12 ..........( 9 x T ydna and 3 x L ydna )
R1 = 11
I = 10
J1 = 4
H1 = 2
P = 2
F = 1
.
.
all T with DYS448 = 20 are matching Eastern European peoples ( Ukrainians and Belarus usually ) …..there are 5 of these easterners and 2 are Western Europeans ( Italians and Portuguese usually)
.
all T with DYS635 = 23 are matching middle-east people and/or Portuguese

----------


## Sile

an interesting read
.
http://www.genlinginterface.com/upda...20-and-t-m184/

5.11.5. Conclusions.
LT-L298 has not received much attention because L-M20 and T-M184 generally attain
a low frequency among the surveyed populations. Accordingly, the distribution of internal
variation within LT-L298 is poorly understood because researchers generally devote more
time to unraveling the phylogeny of high frequency mutations. More data would be helpful.
For example, future exploration of LT-L298 variations should examine the rare L2-L595
mutation in Europe. Is this a Paleolithic or Neolithic relic?

Another problem with deciphering LT-L298 variation is also associated with LR-M9 ( K-M9 )
mutations as a whole, and with this, how to classify the phylogeny of this paragroup.

----------


## TL442

Hi
and am T as well as well... TL442. Grandfather was born in Sciacca Sicily ... came to America as a child... I am also currently living in Australia but was born in New York. DNA moves around a lot faster in modern times.

----------


## TL442

> Hi
> and am T as well as well... TL446. Grandfather was born in Sciacca Sicily ... came to America as a child... I am also currently living in Australia but was born in New York. DNA moves around a lot faster in modern times.


I made a typo I am TL 446 hence my user name is wrong LOL

----------


## Sile

> I made a typo I am TL 446 hence my user name is wrong LOL


you mean 
T-L446
which is the T1a2 branch

----------


## Sile

> an interesting read
> .
> http://www.genlinginterface.com/upda...20-and-t-m184/
> 
> 5.11.5. Conclusions.
> LT-L298 has not received much attention because L-M20 and T-M184 generally attain
> a low frequency among the surveyed populations. Accordingly, the distribution of internal
> variation within LT-L298 is poorly understood because researchers generally devote more
> time to unraveling the phylogeny of high frequency mutations. More data would be helpful.
> ...


In regards to this .........someone should try to see if the T-M184 and the L-M20 have similar matching places around the world ...........I did a quick check on Italy and there are very many places/towns/regions that these to haplogroups live together

----------


## Sile

for what it is worth
https://authenticgathazoroastrianism...plogroup-t1a2/
.
*While the original I haplogroups appear to go back to the Magis of Zarathustra and BMAC culture, the latter T1a2 haplogroup must hail back to the Median Magi from the West. T1a2 or (T L131) has been found as far East as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. T1a2 penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe of Eurasia during the Neolithic, and became integrated to the indigenous R1a peoples (Proto Indo Iranians) before their expansion to Central Asia during the Bronze Age.*
about 20% to 25% percent Of Iranian mobeds or “Zoroastrian priests” belong to T1a. But the great majority 75%-80% belong to I* to I2*. That is Haplogroups I M170 and I P215 respectively. The closest population group to Iranian Zoroastrians are the Bakhtiaris. The Bakhtiaris likewise show a high percentage of Haplgroups G, T1a as well as I M170.

----------


## Salento

@Sile
We see more and more people lately pushing biased agenda related conclusions, and wishful thinking Religious Book outcomes.
Many are laughable and irritating at the same time. lol
Too Bad. :)

----------


## Sile

> @Sile
> We see more and more people lately pushing biased agenda related conclusions, and wishful thinking Religious Book outcomes.
> Many are laughable and irritating at the same time. lol
> Too Bad. :)


like the Parsi corsicans with T-M184
.
I cannot read french
http://www.parsi-corsica.com/origine.html

----------


## Sile

3 albanians with T1a I recently found....not related to me, though one is Z19945 .............I keep asking if he is a Petrov from Bulgaria which matches me , but I continually get no reply.
he is from Kosovo , part of Hoti clan ..........no other info
.
next, T1a1 from Gjakova region ......no other info
.
lastly, T1a2-CTS0933, from Vlore, coastal Abania, came from Corfu and stated where originally from western crete
.
I will try to get more info

----------


## Emathia

Actually there are 4 of us in the Albanian project. Two samples T-CTS933 and two T-CTS8862. I am the one from Gjakova-Kosovo, terminal SNP CTS933.

----------


## Salento

> Actually there are 4 of us in the Albanian project. Two samples T-CTS933 and two T-CTS8862. I am the one from Gjakova-Kosovo, terminal SNP CTS933.


Welcome Emathia.
So what you're saying is that the Z19945 individual mentioned above is not part of your project, and to look somewhere else for his origins.

----------


## Emathia

Last name Petrov is probably from Bulgarian project.

----------


## td120

There is a Petrov, T1a2 in the Bulgarian project.
Google Bulgarian Dna ftdna results

----------


## torzio

> There is a Petrov, T1a2 in the Bulgarian project.
> Google Bulgarian Dna ftdna results


There are 5 bulgarians on this site who are T1a haplogroup, what is the ID of Petrov?

----------


## td120

The only name with cyrillic letters...

----------


## torzio

Thank you
One is a macedonian that went to Bulgaria , as stated ...............he too looks like T1a2 branch

----------


## Yaan

> Thank you
> One is a macedonian that went to Bulgaria , as stated ...............he too looks like T1a2 branch


Just to clarify he is Bulgarian from a region called Macedonia, !

----------


## td120

If you google the Bulgarian DNA results at FTDNA you'll bump into the map of most distant ancestors of the participants (among them are the T-hg's too). A great part will show origins outside the present political map of the country...

----------


## torzio

Hapogroup T has been in bulgaria since neolithic period, can we confirm if any of these 5 ones in the project are slavic or non-slavic in origin ?

----------


## Salento

> If you google the Bulgarian DNA results at FTDNA you'll bump into the map of most distant ancestors of the participants (among them are the T-hg's too). A great part will show origins outside the present political map of the country...




Don’t blame us. :) 
In this thread alone I counted 3 different Macedonias. 
even Alexander would get confused.

----------


## td120

yup...

Torzio, them T's are ethnic Bulgarians . Autosomally not very different than other Bulgarians participating in the project .Minority groups are listed in separate graphs.
There are some among the others with non-Bulgarian parents ,but very few (half Russian, American etc.). Check out the map, will give you a better idea.

----------


## torzio

td120
thankyou

Are they ancient bulgars that came from the north caucasus or could they be Avars or mabe even Gepid/Goths ?

----------


## Yaan

> If you google the Bulgarian DNA results at FTDNA you'll bump into the map of most distant ancestors of the participants (among them are the T-hg's too). A great part will show origins outside the present political map of the country...


So who is talking about maps? People who identified and feel Bulgarian lived in what is today Turkey, Greece, North Macedonia,Serbia, Romania etc. Just like with Turks, Hungarians,Germans, Poles we are b y no means restricted into what is today Bulgaria. Anyways all T's in our Project listed in the main group are Bulgarians, there are separate categories for Turks ,others and even Pomaks. People from Bulgaria are not always Bulgarians, some are Gypsies and Turks and others, and Bulgarians often have roots in North Macedonia, Greece and European Turkey.
Just like Somalian from Stockholm is not Swedish he is Somalian and a guy with roots in Germany born in New York is not having direct line Native American, but German.

----------


## torzio

> So who is talking about maps? People who identified and feel Bulgarian lived in what is today Turkey, Greece, North Macedonia,Serbia, Romania etc. Just like with Turks, Hungarians,Germans, Poles we are b y no means restricted into what is today Bulgaria. Anyways all T's in our Project listed in the main group are Bulgarians, there are separate categories for Turks ,others and even Pomaks. People from Bulgaria are not always Bulgarians, some are Gypsies and Turks and others, and Bulgarians often have roots in North Macedonia, Greece and European Turkey.
> Just like Somalian from Stockholm is not Swedish he is Somalian and a guy with roots in Germany born in New York is not having direct line Native American, but German.


Are these T's bulgars from the caucasus of ancient thracians ?

----------


## Yaan

> Are these T's bulgars from the caucasus of ancient thracians ?


They are Bulgarians. When there are tests of ancient Bulgars and Thrachians we can compare with modern people :)

----------


## torzio

apparently my sample did not qualify in this site stringent 5 tests

----------


## torzio

Gubina paper 2012 for kazaks

1/30 of T1a found = 3.33% in Altai Kazaks

19/49 of T1a found = 39% in Kosh Kazaks

----------


## torzio

@salento

in the latest ftdna branch split ...they have this 



ft62750 are all ukraines, belarussians ............is this what you referred to many months ago ?

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> 
> in the latest ftdna branch split ...they have this 
> 
> 
> 
> ft62750 are all ukraines, belarussians ............is this what you referred to many months ago ?


It’s unlikely, FT62750 is new to me, but many pages00113 were Ashkenazy from that general area.

----------


## torzio

> It’s unlikely, FT62750 is new to me, but many pages00113 were Ashkenazy from that general area.


thanks

BTW...they moved us around in ftdna T project......only person in that group which matches me in ftdna is Mr. Hoff

I have recently spoken to new T person name Bartosiak who has T-Z19945 .........I think he is a polish-american or a Slowian ( scythian-slav ) if such a thing exists, i am unsure


The more and more I check my line , the more I see a non-anatolian passage into Europe

----------


## Salento

> thanks
> 
> BTW...they moved us around in ftdna T project......only person in that group which matches me in ftdna is Mr. Hoff
> 
> I have recently spoken to new T person name Bartosiak who has T-Z19945 .........I think he is a polish-american or a Slowian ( scythian-slav ) if such a thing exists, i am unsure
> 
> 
> The more and more I check my line , the more I see a non-anatolian passage into Europe


In our group you’re right under me, I don't know if it means anything, or if it's just a coincidence.

----------


## torzio

> In our group you’re right under me, I don't know if it means anything, or if it's just a coincidence.


it means you rule me ...as I am below you


Spoke to the Pole , he has done BigY and is emailing Gareth

----------


## torzio

> In our group you’re right under me, I don't know if it means anything, or if it's just a coincidence.


We do not match in Ftdna ..................I do not know why

nor do I match with Benningfield from Kentucky 
nor
the Montenegrian just above him

I am 1 step from Hoff ..........which is useless to me as 1 step could be 2000 years

I have spoken to Lee and his ancestors have always been from York England

and the Irish person is also 1 step from me in ftdna but is a distant relative in yfull

IN18012 ...I was told is a connecicut family ............either surname frost or coleman, but I could be wrong

N184890 .....could be associated with Lee

the Iraqi I was told is from Mosul


In yfull..............brooks and curtiss are my direct matches ........which confuses me on why ftdna separated us ...........there is clearly a difference between ftdna and yfull in terms of matching


It is like in ftdna has me as a 3rd cousin name of Cristina Tax ( who has ydna of T ) of the netherlands .............no idea where they get 3rd cousin from

----------


## torzio

> apparently my sample did not qualify in this site stringent 5 tests


I do not know where ftdna are going with Big-y tree for Z19945

I now get under Z19945 branch

my line ....plain Z19945 with 33 private variants ?
CTS1848 which I am negative for
Pages00113 which I am negative for
FT62750 which I am negative for
BY64684 which I am negative for

It seems Z19945 is a major snp in the T-L131 branch

----------


## torzio

@ salento

Yfull just placed the polish flag on that new T-Z19945
gives him these snp so far

CTS10538, CTS9984, CTS8862, Z19944, Z19953, BY143483, Z19945, Z19946, PH3117, Y26649

says he is from 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Pomeranian_Voivodeship

actually below is the spot
https://www.britannica.com/place/Zachodniopomorskie


damn ...ysearch ...........I had a another person with T-Z19945 from that land .................pity ftdna , closed it

----------


## Salento

probably unrelated, but ... 

I heard stories of ww2 Italian soldiers captured/injured in Poland,

after the war ended some were forced to stay there, 

eventually many got married (although some of them were already married in Italy)

Many were declared Fallen or Missing in action by the Italian Government.

All this came to light in the early ‘90s, when all of a sudden they came back to Italy with their entire families.

----------


## torzio

> probably unrelated, but ... 
> 
> I heard stories of ww2 Italian soldiers captured/injured in Poland,
> 
> after the war ended some were forced to stay there, 
> 
> eventually many got married (although some of them were already married in Italy)
> 
> Many were declared Fallen or Missing in action by the Italian Government.
> ...


not to say his origins are from there ..............but he comes from Old Prusi lands ( not prussians ) ....but West-balts ethnicity , ancient Warmians etc.....fought crusaders in the 13th century because they where pagans .........crusaders came there only from saxons and thuringians

for what it is worth

https://web.archive.org/web/20120204...mbutas-01.html

----------


## torzio

all ancient T samples found so far

----------


## Salento

some of my dod k12 distances with some y Ts

9.82862147
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia



10.18438020
Szolad36



11.55739590
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea



12.80411262
R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese



24.88493118
ANI152_Varna



25.80391056
I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE

----------


## torzio

Another T1a2-CTS8862 found in Kosovo-Bosnia area ...............no relation with myself ..............matches a russian living in Macedonia who originally came via east of moscow

----------


## Salento

SNP Tracker
y DNA Path to T-BY143483 (final)

... not a Tourist :) Totally Italian (Roman too)








http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## Salento

EDIT ... deleted

... talking to myself  :Sad:

----------


## ratchet_fan

Where do you think the split between L and T occurred?

----------


## Salento

> SNP Tracker
> y DNA Path to T-BY143483 (final)
> 
> ... not a Tourist :) Totally Italian (Roman too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Phylogeographer (below) vs SNP-Tracker (above)

EDIT  :Thinking: (probably R1’s Boyfriend)  :Grin: 




https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/

----------


## Salento

> Where do you think the split between L and T occurred?


I wasn’t around when L and T split, ... I’m sure @Torzio would have remembered it :)

----------


## torzio

> Phylogeographer (below) vs SNP-Tracker (above)
> 
> EDIT (probably R1’s Boyfriend) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/



in SNP tracker ...T-SK1480 is placed in SE Tuscany , around modern Archidosso .....................and T-BY143483 is now placed in ancient Picene lands on the adriatic coast

----------


## Salento

> in SNP tracker ...T-SK1480 is placed in SE Tuscany , around modern Archidosso .....................and T-BY143483 is now placed in ancient Picene lands on the adriatic coast


Thanks for the update, in a way, T-SK1480 is located almost half way between our 2 Regions,

Besides you and I, are you aware of any other SK1480 ?

----------


## torzio

> Thanks for the update, ... in a way, T-SK1480 is located almost half way between our 2 Regions,
> 
> ... Besides you and I, are you aware of any other SK1480?



The Polish-Prussian guy from the Baltic sea Polish area ..............who said to me , his ancestors where old east-germans, not far west of modern Silesia

Ftdna has taken both of us under Big Y block tree under 
T-SK1480
Y79536 ..................this is its equivalent in Yfull


There are now 7 groups under T-Z19945

----------


## Salento

thanks again @Torzio

Looks like that T-BY143483 is around the Rubicon, ... wondering if the mutation to T-SK1480 happened before or after the Crossing of the Rubicon :)

----------


## Salento

> thanks again @Torzio
> 
> Looks like that T-BY143483 is around the Rubicon, ... wondering if the mutation to T-SK1480 happened before or after the Crossing of the Rubicon :)


I’m not sure of their dating protocol,

... just guessing: about 2000 years ago they Crossed the Rubicon too :)

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> thanks again @Torzio
> 
> Looks like that T-BY143483 is around the Rubicon, ... wondering if the mutation to T-SK1480 happened before or after the Crossing of the Rubicon :)


Maybe one of yours and Torzio's ancestors were part of the "Die has been cast" crossing of the Rubicon.

----------


## torzio

> I’m not sure of their dating protocol,
> 
> ... just guessing: about 2000 years ago they Crossed the Rubicon too :)



are you talking about the Umbri-etruscan war ..............or the Sabine people part of Sabellic people ( they have a higher % of T )
all part of Umbrian and other languages belonging to the Sabine languages, such as Volscian, Sabine, South Picene, Marsian, Paeligni, Hernican, Marrucinian, Pre-Samnite and Sidicini. 


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22677

Filettino 11.8% T
Pesaro 11.6% T
Vallepietra 11.1% T
L'Aquila 9.7% T 
Fano 8.8% T
Saracinesco 7.7% T
Jenne 4.6% T

all central italian isolated mountain towns except for Pesaro which is on the marche adriatic coast

----------


## Salento

> are you talking about the Umbri-etruscan war ..............or the Sabine people part of Sabellic people ( they have a higher % of T )
> all part of Umbrian and other languages belonging to the Sabine languages, such as Volscian, Sabine, South Picene, Marsian, Paeligni, Hernican, Marrucinian, Pre-Samnite and Sidicini. 
> 
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22677
> 
> Filettino 11.8% T
> Pesaro 11.6% T
> Vallepietra 11.1% T
> ...


I don't remember which tribe crossed the Rubicon first,  :Thinking:  LOL

... I’m aware of the constant changing of dates and migration paths in all sites, ... but just for fun ... speculate about it :)

----------


## Salento

> Maybe one of yours and Torzio's ancestors were part of the "Die has been cast" crossing of the Rubicon.


imho there were two brothers, after a quick crossing, one of them went back North and recrossed the Rubicon in reverse  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

> I don't remember which tribe crossed the Rubicon first,  LOL
> 
> ... I’m aware of the constant changing of dates and migration paths in all sites, ... but just for fun ... speculate about it :)



some of the T samples




all are 23 ...........we are 22, most likely earlier than these samples


the majority came from 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/67...74!4d13.254805

----------


## Salento

> some of the T samples
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all are 23 ...........we are 22, most likely earlier than these samples
> 
> 
> the majority came from 
> ...


as you said, our line could be older (str), even the Abruzzesi that I should be autosomally closer to are younger.

----------


## Salento

> all ancient T samples found so far


I counted only four T1a2 like us in the y T ancient list, some cool Romans, ... and even a Viking ... :)

----------


## torzio

> I counted only four T1a2 like us in the y T ancient list, some cool Romans, ... and even a Viking ... :)



You need to take care as some scientific papers call T1a2 ...as T1a1b...like below ( T1a1 is T1a1a in these papers ).....difference is either a or b

*I3403* ( 147 ± 92 yBP )
Y-DNA: *T1a1b1a1b-Y21207*
mtDNA: X2d

This sample is your R39 as per above


another example below of a T1a2 noted as T1a1b 

*CL23* ( 1310 -1380 yBP )
Phase: I
Y-DNA: *T1a1b1a1-CTS6071* (x Y21207, CTS7303)
mtDNA: H


.................................

this below is now noted as T1a2

*Tepe Hissar C ( 4100 yBP - Bronze Age ) Tepe Hissar Culture**I2512* ( 4265 ± 25 yBP / 4846 yBP )


with this summary
*While the original I haplogroups appear to go back to the Magis of Zarathustra and BMAC culture, the latter T1a2 haplogroup must hail back to the Median Magi from the West. T1a2 or (T L131)** has been found as far East as the Volga-Ural region of Russia and Xinjiang in north-west China. T1a2 penetrated into the Pontic-Caspian Steppe of Eurasia during the Neolithic, and became integrated to the indigenous R1a peoples (Proto Indo Iranians) before their expansion to Central Asia during the Bronze Age.

*To me , it looks like around the Caspian sea originates or group ..............i always thought it was on the eastern side near the Aral sea

----------


## Andraste

Torzio
I noticed in Salento's post a list of ancient T samples which you posted, I see 2x T-CTS 2214 T1a1a1b2 listed.
I am wondering if either of you can help me understand if it is of Jewish origin or am I getting confused.
Thanks for any help

----------


## torzio

https://jewishdna.net/T.html

start with this .................and then is another site which goes down specific branches of T which are Jewish .......................but your line has no jewish link ( IIRC there was 49 samples ) ........I will try to refind this other link, but it should be on this forum somewhere already

----------


## Andraste

Thank you Torzio, I can see no link now. I think what confused me was that I had T-L208 which appears often in that list.
Thanks

----------


## dahutu

Torzio, My haplogroup is T and is in the process of further testing to determine which branch I belong to. I am quite interested to study this, do you have the up-to-date excel file : all ancient DNA? Thanks.

----------


## torzio

> Torzio, My haplogroup is T and is in the process of further testing to determine which branch I belong to. I am quite interested to study this, do you have the up-to-date excel file : all ancient DNA? Thanks.



this site has not been updated for a year

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/es/map...#3/47.34/46.58

Note ................Haplogroup T came out of Haplgroup LT and this group came out of Haplogroup K-M9
*K-M9 has the following haplogroup.....R1a, R1b, R2, Q, N, O, L, T, M and S .............*

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> I counted only four T1a2 like us in the y T ancient list, some cool Romans, ... and even a Viking ... :)


Is T likely to have been spread by Phoenicians? Or at least T1a2

Which other y dna would they have belonged to in addition to this?

----------


## Salento

> Is T likely to have been spread by Phoenicians? Or at least T1a2
> Which other y dna would they have belonged to in addition to this?


maybe some, ... but probably not, ... 

y T was already in Central Europe at least 7000+ years ago, long before the Phoenicians.

imho T is too low-rate and widespread for being spread by a particular civilization or other Haplogroups.

----------


## torzio

> Is T likely to have been spread by Phoenicians? Or at least T1a2
> Which other y dna would they have belonged to in addition to this?



very much doubt this, actually 100% wrong ................the Phoenicians began 1500BC in modern Israel ..............modern Lebanon was still Hittite lands until 1100BC and spoke Luwian language in that area, luwian in that area was the last place it disappeared and that was in 600BC

T was already in Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary in the Neolithic times....that is more than 4000 years before any Phoenicians where around ...............

----------


## Salento

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## torzio

> http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html



ybp of 360 for sk1480, is that correct ?..............................

----------


## Salento

> ybp of 360 for sk1480, is that correct ?..............................


according to SNP Tracker ... yes, 
about**:

*T-SK1480* ybp 360 (1600 AD) *Modern*
*
T-BY143483* ybp 1700 (220 AD) *Roman

*Edit - Geno Invicta :) 



> _Geno Invicta
> _

----------


## torzio

> according to SNP Tracker ... yes, 
> about**:
> 
> *T-SK1480* ybp 360 (1600 AD) *Modern*
> *
> T-BY143483* ybp 1700 (220 AD) *Roman
> 
> *Edit - Geno Invicta :)



1600 AD...ok ..............knowing my paternal family tree ......at that time my line was in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonzaso

shortly to move east to Feltre and then south to Pederobba


...............................

the BY143483 is also interesting for that time period


............................

period for Z19945 ......pannonian people

----------


## Salento

... in a nutshell:

y *T-SK1480* - mtDNA _H12a_

23&me - AncestryDNA - LivDNA - NatGeo :

----------


## torzio

mine ................do not have living dna anymore nor natgeno

----------


## torzio

a newish map of T ydna by 

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_...t&searchfor=T-

----------


## torzio

> a newish map of T ydna by 
> 
> https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_...t&searchfor=T-



the one sample I do not know about is from link

I4055 - Plaza Einstein, Granada, Andalusia
T1a2-L490 

The period is when the vandals under Gunderic ( king of the Vandals ) and Elisa ruled southern Spain and north Africa ( morocco and algeria ) ......Gunderic eventaully invaded Rome from North africa with his vandal army

*Vandals: 335-435AD*

In AD 409/410 the Roman frontier was breached and the* Vandals* crossed the Pyrenees into the Iberian peninsula. There, they received land from the Romans in Hispania Baetica (roughly modern-day Andalucia). Other tribes who also arrived around this time were the *Suevi* and *Alani*. The Vandals crushed the Alani, killing the western Alan *King Attaces*. The remainder of his people subsequently appealed to the Vandal *King Gunderic* to accept the Alan crown.

I need to get further info on this period and sample


This below was also a leader of the Vandals in the same area...not sure how each ruler fitted

*GENSERIC* [Gaiseric], illegitimate son of GODEGISL King of the Vandals & his concubine --- ([400]-477). Procopius names “_Gizerichus notus_” as son of “_Godigisclo_”*[17]*. He succeeded his half-brother in 427 as *GENSERIC King of the Vandals*. Isidor's _Historia__ Gothorum__, Wandalorum, Sueborum_ names "_Gesericus frater Gunderici_" when recording that he succeeded the latter as Vandal king in Spain*[18]*. The Vandals crossed into North Africa en masse in May 429, although what prompted this move is unclear*[19]*. The _Chronicon_ of Bishop Idatius records that “_Gaisericus Rex…cum Wandalis omnibus_” left “_Bæticæ Provinciæ litore_” and went “_ad Mauritaniam et Africam_” in May 429*[20]*. According to Iordanes, the Romans lost the province of Africa to the Vandals "_per Bonifatium_"*[21]*, although this does not explain why they arrived there in the first place. The exploits in Africa of "_Geiserici ducis_" are described in detail in the _Victoris Vitensis Historia_*[22]*. Genseric conquered Hipona in 429, and Carthage in 439, where they established their capital. The Vandal nobles rebelled against their leader in 442*[23]*. Genseric sacked Rome in 455. The Eastern Roman Empire's first expedition against the Vandals in Africa in 468, led by Basiliscus, brother-in-law of Emperor Leo I, failed despite numerical superiority*[24]*. The Vandal kingdom dominated the western Mediterranean, with Corsica and Sardinia. King Genseric made an agreement with Odoacar King of Italy about Sicily, the latter retaining control over the island in return for yearly tribute*[25]*. The _Victoris__ Tonnennensis Epsicopi Chronicon_ records the death in 464 of "_Gensericum Wandalorum rex_" after reigning for 40 years*[26]*.

----------


## Salento

> the one sample I do not know about is from link
> 
> I4055 - Plaza Einstein, Granada, Andalusia
> T1a2-L490 
> 
> The period is when the vandals under Gunderic ( king of the Vandals ) and Elisa ruled southern Spain and north Africa ( morocco and algeria ) ......Gunderic eventaully invaded Rome from North africa with his vandal army
> 
> *Vandals: 335-435AD*
> 
> ...


y T-L490 - mt U3a1

*I4055* Dodecad K12 coordinates:

RomanVillaGranadaSpain_I4055,6.34,0.29,11.67,0.00, 35.87,20.88,0.00,3.68,15.38,0.36,5.46,0.06

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

----------


## torzio

> y T-L490 - mt U3a1
> 
> *I4055* Dodecad K12 coordinates:
> 
> RomanVillaGranadaSpain_I4055,6.34,0.29,11.67,0.00, 35.87,20.88,0.00,3.68,15.38,0.36,5.46,0.06
> 
> http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/




Distance to:
Torziok12b

22.17713011
RomanVillaGranadaSpain_I4055

----------


## torzio

I4055 comes from an area and time of the Silingi Vandals in Iberia

..............this is the best possibility , but not the only one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silingi

if you check the germanic map in link ...............then the Vandal confederation ( Vindili confederation ) is on the baltic sea 

The silingi on the map are SE to the Burgundians , just outside the Vindili confederation ( looks like that area falls under the Suevi )


Following the fortunes of the Vandals and Suebi into the Iberian peninsula (Hispania, comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409,[34] the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of Lusitania and Carthaginensis.[35] The Kingdom of the Alans was among the first Barbarian kingdoms to be founded. The *Silingi Vandals* settled in Baetica, the Suebi in coastal Gallaecia, and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia. Although the newcomers controlled Hispania they were still a tiny minority among a larger Hispano-Roman population, approximately 200,000 out of 6,000,000.[8]

----------


## torzio

on yfull

T-CTS2214 ....CTS2214 * FGC4681/Y4118formed 8400 ybp, TMRCA 8400 ybpinfoT-Y15127 ..Y19378/FGC40379(H) * Y15127formed 8400 ybp, TMRCA 8400 ybpinfo
*id:SZ36 HUN [HU-SO]age i new*T-Y15127*

id:YF06061*LBN [LB-JL]*iT-CTS2214*T-BY31173BY31298/Y58222 * BY31188/Y49465 * BY31229/Y55797+51 SNPs formed 8400 ybp, TMRCA 300 ybpinfo
id:YF12581*USA [US-NC]*id:YF03062*USA [US-TX]*

----------


## torzio

my father ( result below ) has I4055 in MTA ( I do not )

*15.66* - I4055 
Top 97 % match vs all users

----------


## torzio

The conclusion from the Haber paper 2019 is that our T ydna is not african at all .................it is South-East Asian

we belong to the F-M89 group

*So where did the haplogroup F lineage go after having left Africa? New discoveries at FamilyTreeDNA provide some clues.*




*Before the new haplogroup F branches were added, the haplogroup F tree looked like this. There were known basal F lineages, but FamilyTreeDNA did not have any Big Y testers that belonged to those branches of haplogroup F and were not at that time making use of NGS results from academic studies to define tree branches.
*
*Since then, among the thousands of new Big Y test results, a few haplogroup F lineages have been identified.

*
*The view of the Y DNA tree at FamilyTreeDNA shows the locations of the various test results. Please note that people in the F-M89 haplogroup may simply have not tested beyond that level today, and would benefit from the Big Y test.*
*The Y tree now includes the new branch F-F15527 (F1) with four immediate subclades with samples from Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and the southern border of China, as shown on this map.

*
*Finding F1 exclusively in Southeast Asia is significant because it represents the first split of haplogroup F.*
*Additionally, it gives some clues about where haplogroup F was before it split between F1 and GHIJK, which represents all the haplogroups F through T.*
*It is also significant that they all belong to different branches, four immediate subclades of F1, dated to circa 48,000 years ago. This shows a rapid expansion where several lineages quickly diverged then and survived for tens of thousands of years until present day. It is very likely that we will discover other ancient lineages in this part of the tree as more people from this part of the world take a high coverage Y-DNA test.
*

----------


## Salento

... 48.000 years ago around Southeast Asia, ... as he went back West, y T must have battled Neanderthal, ... or dated  :Satisfied:

----------


## Salento

new:

Z19945 Bronze Age Italy ... to Iron Age ... to BY143483 Roman Era to SK1480 Modern Italy:





http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## Salento

@Torzio

... maybe SK1480 late migration related:
North to South or South to North ...

under the MyHeritage *Bari* genetic group I’m getting *Friuli-Venezia-Giulia*,
Are you getting any *Apulian* ???

... under 1750 - 1800, *Lecce* _(Salento)_ genetic group, I’m getting *Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes*, _Rhineland-Palatinate_ in Germany, and more, 

... though in the 1600 - 1650 I’m all *Italian*, _Lecce, Marche, Rome, ...
_


Lecce 1750 - 1800


Lecce 1600 - 1650

----------


## torzio

Sorry , No ...I do not get any apulia

The lowest in italy is Molise region for myself



so 1600-1650 is

Sossano, Veneto, Italy
and 
a large area on the french-german border , between the cities of Metz and Saarbrucken Germany ( majority is in france ) place called 
*Saint-Avold*

*France*


...............................

1650-1700 , I get

Asigliano Veneto, Veneto, Italy

Rovaré, Veneto, Italy

and as above in france again

.................................................. .................................................. ...............................................


I already put my fathers results in another post ...so for him its 

1600-1650

Fontane, Veneto, Italy

Zernez, Grisons, Switzerland


Babenhausen, Hesse, Germany

Canizzano, Veneto, Italy

on the map he gets Hesse and only this other place in germany ......so I think the french place is only for me and might be some maternal part


*Aschaffenburg*


*Germany*





..............................................

1650-1700 there is an abruzzo for my father

Carbonera, Veneto, Italy

Fontane, Veneto, Italy

Fontanelle, Veneto, Italy

Grasciano, Abruzzo, Italy

Lancenigo, Veneto, Italy

...............................

1750-1800

Veneto, Italy

Treviso, Veneto, Italy

Belluno, Veneto, Italy

Fontanelle, Veneto, Italy

Abruzzo gone by 1750

----------


## Salento

... with the Chieti (Abruzzo) genetic group I also get Bolzano - South Tyrol - Italy:

----------


## torzio

mine

----------


## torzio

my guess is your maternal plays a big part

----------


## Salento

> my guess is your maternal plays a big part


I think we all inherit more maternal genes than the paternal.

----------


## Salento

It’s not the first time that I get Friuli-Venezia-Giulia, the Rhone Alps and the Tyrol, 

... I guess SK1480 must have traveled a North to South path after all.

... (partial) from Ethnogene:

----------


## torzio

> It’s not the first time that I get Friuli-Venezia-Giulia, the Rhone Alps and the Tyrol, 
> 
> ... I guess SK1480 must have traveled a North to South path after all.
> 
> ... (partial) from Ethnogene:



it is more maternal.........my sons data ...........his mother maternal line comes from san stino di livenza and 



*Portogruaro*

3 km from friuli

his mother paternal comes from Gaiarine and Ceneda ( vittorio Veneto )


His 

Top places 1650 - 1700
Artegna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy

Dueville, Veneto, Italy

Gemona, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy

Ovaro, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy

Rigolato, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Italy

----------


## torzio

I once got Rhone area and Provenzal france ....but not anymore ..............I also used to get a lot of French Basque ...no more


your line comes from ancient Liburnians/north dalmatian ...........only explanation IMO

----------


## torzio

> it is more maternal.........my sons data ...........his mother maternal line comes from san stino di livenza and 
> 
> 
> 
> *Portogruaro*
> 
> 3 km from friuli
> 
> his mother paternal comes from Gaiarine and Ceneda ( vittorio Veneto )
> ...



Ovaro friuli is where I have DNA matches with the families of *Bet , Rechenbach ( with Corso line ) and Hintz* ..............Bet family still there, Rechenbach gone to swiss and Hintz is in Morgano Veneto ........I am talking about circa 1700 ............

----------


## Salento

... guessing: if it’s Liburnia I’m assuming Late Bronze Age or earlier.

----------


## torzio

> ... guessing: if it’s Liburnia I’m assuming Late Bronze Age or earlier.



They arrived firstly near foggia circa 1000Bc from what I read ...........

----------


## torzio

> They arrived firstly near foggia circa 1000Bc from what I read ...........



Now 

Z19945 arrived in ancient Picene lands

----------


## Salento

> Now 
> 
> Z19945 arrived in ancient Picene lands



to get to Firenze I took part of the same Italian route by Train as Z19945, many times.

from Lecce ... 14+ Hours of Hell, I probably mutated a couple of clades into SK1480 right then, ... lol

by Train, ... depending on the time of the day, years ago, from Lecce it was faster to get to Florence by going to Bologna than by Rome.

----------


## torzio

> to get to Firenze I took part of the same Italian route by Train as Z19945, many times.
> 
> from Lecce ... 14+ Hours of Hell, I probably mutated a couple of clades into SK1480 right then, ... lol
> 
> by Train, ... depending on the time of the day, years ago, from Lecce it was faster to get to Florence by going to Bologna than by Rome.


LOL


I took ........about 3 hours from Bergamo to Lucca via Genoa ............and 2 hours from Lucca to Firenze

----------


## Salento

> Now 
> 
> Z19945 arrived in ancient Picene lands

----------


## torzio

> 



what does chieti represent ?

is it

Their territory was placed under Roman municipal jurisdiction after the Social War.[6] In imperial times, Chieti's population reached 60,000 inhabitants but, after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, it was destroyed by Visigoths and Heruli. Later it was seat of a gastaldate under the Lombard kings. After its destruction by Peppin, it became a fief of the Duchy of Benevento. 

I do not recall Visigoths in Italy ( visi = western ) ..........but Ostrogoths ( ostro = eastern ) whose capital was Ravenna ............but they only stayed in Italy as rulers for about 100 years replaced by Lombards after losing a war to them.

Heruli seem like a mix of Goths and Sycthians coming from the black sea ( romania area ) 

But , papers also say
*The Heruli are specifically believed to have spoken an East Germanic language. These languages were also spoken by the Goths, Burgundians, Rugii, Vandals, Gepids and others.[9][10][11] It has however also been proposed that they spoke a North Germanic language.[12]*

----------


## Salento

Chieti is my 2nd place _myheritage_ Genetic Group,
1st is Bari, ... 3rd Lecce (Salento), ...

the Chieti genetic group spreads around close to the Piceni areas

----------


## Salento

... from your video:

the southern border of the Piceni reached into Abruzzo, ... the River Matrinus (Torrente Piomba), ... then Aternum (Pescara) and its river, ...

... that’s why my Chieti (Abruzzo) Genetic Group makes sense:

----------


## torzio

> ... from your video:
> 
> the southern border of the Piceni reached into Abruzzo, ... the River Matrinus (Torrente Piomba), ... then Aternum (Pescara) and its river, ...
> 
> ... that’s why my Chieti (Abruzzo) Genetic Group makes sense:



https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapodi...ricum_40BC.png

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapodi

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Roman_Liburnia

----------


## Salento

23 vs LivDNA Haplogroups

LivingDNA trumps 23andme mtDNA :)

----------


## torzio

> 23 vs LivDNA Haplogroups
> 
> LivingDNA trumps 23andme mtDNA :)



What is this all about ....moving Jefferson from a T1a1 branch to a T1a2 branch ?

----------


## Salento

> What is this all about ....moving Jefferson from a T1a1 branch to a T1a2 branch ?


... that's not what it says,

... the “your” in the images is about me, and not Jefferson.

23 and LivDNA use Jefferson as the y T general point of reference.

... from my 23andme results:



I can see how it can be confusing :)

----------


## torzio

Another T match 

Surname CAUS ( original )......some changed surname to Causin

3 places they appear , need to check......Venice, Spresiano and Udine

some now living in Brazil

trying to check austrian records, since veneto and friuli where under austria from 1820-1870

----------


## torzio

> ... that's not what it says,
> 
> ... the “your” in the images is about me, and not Jefferson.
> 
> 23 and LivDNA use Jefferson as the y T general point of reference.
> 
> ... from my 23andme results:
> 
> 
> ...


The T project stated that the Jefferson is this in Yfull...T-PF7444
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-PF7444/...FUDDISYQ6t-xto

others in Yfull state, state the top ID is Jefferson line ....USA flag VA in link below
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS3767/

----------


## torzio

from this paper 

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...SgndXhDAF-9ZFo

I was given this below

----------


## Salento

> The T project stated that the Jefferson is this in Yfull...T-PF7444
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-PF7444/...FUDDISYQ6t-xto
> 
> others in Yfull state, state the top ID is Jefferson line ....USA flag VA in link below
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS3767/


@Torzio 
the 1st Jefferson link is T1a1... 
the 2nd Jefferson link is T1a2... 

just sayin’ :)

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio 
> the 1st Jefferson link is T1a1... 
> the 2nd Jefferson link is T1a2... 
> 
> just sayin’ :)



I am saying he is T1a1 with PF7455

----------


## torzio

these are not all of the T

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_...-&ybp=500000,0

----------


## Salento

y T Vikings coordinates

VK398 ... T-BY215080 (T1a2...)
VK17... T-Y138678 (T1a...)



```
VK398_Dod_K7b,0.12,13.33,2.25,1.52,13.17,69.62,0.00

VK398_Dod_W9,0.75,0.00,1.42,68.75,0.43,1.96,13.85,12.84,0.00

VK398_Dod_K12b,8.51,1.82,0.00,0.00,35.33,41.96,0.00,0.00,0.68,0.00,10.07,1.61

VK398_Dod_13,1.67,0.32,1.81,0.00,2.08,0.00,31.67,0.33,0.56,10.18,51.37,0.00,0.00

VK398_MDLP_K16,0.22,0.27,22.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,20.55,0.00,25.21,0.01,29.39,0.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.38

VK398_EU_K13,47.61,23.05,11.16,7.28,4.35,3.52,0.30,0.00,0.84,0.68,0.72,0.00,0.49

VK398_EU_K15,26.70,35.27,12.81,6.71,5.98,6.62,0.54,3.19,0.39,0.00,0.71,0.32,0.47,0.09,0.22

VK398_EU_K36,0.01,0.00,0.00,3.79,0.00,6.69,0.00,0.00,4.72,0.00,5.41,0.00,4.35,8.85,8.71,20.80,0.00,2.35,0.00,0.00,0.00,13.14,3.26,13.81,0.00,0.16,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.26,0.48,2.21,0.00
```




```
VK17_Dod_K7b,0.00,6.60,3.86,1.43,5.59,82.52,0.00

VK17_Dod_W9,0.59,0.00,1.46,81.54,0.03,3.55,8.16,4.67,0.00

VK17_Dod_K12b,2.57,2.93,0.02,0.50,28.20,60.64,0.00,0.12,0.01,0.00,3.78,1.23

VK17_Dod_13,1.94,0.00,0.85,0.81,1.12,0.00,23.14,0.21,1.13,1.24,69.56,0.00,0.00

VK17_MDLP_K16,0.00,0.06,20.77,0.19,1.64,0.00,16.74,0.00,35.60,0.00,23.00,0.00,0.00,0.96,0.00,1.05

VK17_EU_K13,44.12,42.69,5.90,0.11,2.74,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.98,0.00,0.07,0.09,1.28

VK17_EU_K15,39.67,17.44,20.45,17.47,2.27,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.54,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.16

VK17_EU_K36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.44,0.42,4.20,0.00,0.00,2.69,0.00,12.13,0.00,12.56,32.45,9.80,5.29,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,6.43,0.00,13.58,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
```


http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/

----------


## torzio

> y T Vikings coordinates
> 
> VK398 ... T-BY215080 (T1a2...)
> VK17... T-Y138678 (T1a...)
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> VK398_Dod_K7b,0.12,13.33,2.25,1.52,13.17,69.62,0.00
> ...



Interesting is that Balkar origin was the first ancient association I was given 8 plus years ago from DNATribes ...............Balkar is north-caucasus area, Abazin is next to Balkar

Distance to:
VK398_Dod_K12b

2.28707676
72.80% English_South + 27.20% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely

2.30413031
70.60% French_Northwest + 29.40% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely

2.31116802
70.20% English_mixed + 29.80% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely

2.32041397
91.00% English_mixed + 9.00% Nogai

2.37198490
83.20% English_North + 16.80% Turk_Deliorman

2.40465688
92.00% English_South + 8.00% Nogai

2.41783457
*9.20% Abazin + 90.80% English_North*

2.42418700
35.60% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely + 64.40% Scottish

2.42853886
90.00% English_North + 10.00% Nogai

2.44031696
12.40% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + 87.60% English_North

2.44658575
84.80% English_North + 15.20% Turk_Trakya

2.45314411
40.00% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely + 60.00% Irish

2.45341965
90.40% English_North + 9.60% Kabardin

2.45546904
9.20% Circassian + 90.80% English_North

2.47154730
*9.20% Balkar + 90.80% English_North
*

2.47207525
77.40% French_Northwest + 22.60% Moldavian_North

2.47412826
91.00% English_North + 9.00% Karachay

2.49350876
67.80% English_North + 32.20% Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely

2.49603742
91.40% English_North + 8.60% Ossetian

2.51064294
81.00% English_South + 19.00% Moldavian_Center

2.52665496
*8.00% Balkar + 92.00% English_mixed
*

2.52871666
*8.20% Abazin + 91.80% English_mixed*

2.54496788
79.00% English_mixed + 21.00% Moldavian_Center

2.54662778
82.60% English_North + 17.40% Pomak_Greece

2.55147141
91.60% English_mixed + 8.40% Kabardin

----------


## Mr. T

Y Haplogroup T ancient samples in timeline order. Any additional samples please forward me

India Roopkund Lake B ( 150 yBP )
I3403 ( 147 ± 92 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1b-Y21207
mtDNA: X2d

Lebanon Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )
SI-42
Y-DNA: T1a - M70
mtDNA: J1b1a

Sweden Varnhem ( 950 yBP - Viking Age )
VK398
Y-DNA: T1a1b2a
mtDNA: H1b1+16362

Russia near Finland Ladoga Varangians ( 950 yBP - Viking Age )
VK17
Y-DNA: T1a1a1
mtDNA: U5a2a1b

Italy near France Collegno ( 1350 yBP - Early Medieval ) Longobard Period
CL23 
Y-DNA: T1a1b1a1 - CTS6071
mtDNA: H

Hungary Szólád ( Early Medieval ) Lombard Period no carbon date
SZ36
Y-DNA: T1a1a1a1a2b2 - PF7275
mtDNA: U4c2a

Lebanon Qornet ed-Deir ( 1794 yBP - Roman )
QED-2
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2b2b1a - P77
mtDNA: T1

Kazakhstan Kok-Mardan ( 1800 yBP - Late Antiquity ) Kaunchi Culture ( Kangju )
DA125 ( 1755 ± 41 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a1-Y13279
mtDNA: U2e2a1

Israel Tel Abel Beth Maccah
I2201, Iron Age, 1011-846 calBCE
I2201
mtDNA: X2
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2b2b1a1a2 - CTS6280

Turkmenistan Gonur Depe ( 3600 yBP - Bronze Age ) Bactria Margiana (BMAC)
I1781 ( 3550 ± 30 yBP / 3841 yBP )
Y-DNA: T-M184 
mtDNA: T1a1q

Israel Tel Megiddo
Middle-Late Bronze Age, 1971-1278 calBCE
I4518
mtDNA: HV2a1
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214

Syria Alalakh site
Middle-Late Bronze Age, 2111-1303 BC
ALA015
mtDNA: K1a
Y-DNA: T1a1a - L208

Syria Elba site
Middle Bronze Age I(Eblaite), 2000-1800 BCE
ETM026
mtDNA: K1a4
Y-DNA: T1a1 - L162

Iran Tepe Hissar C (4100 yBP- Bronze Age) Tepe Hissar Culture
I2514 ( 3915 ± 25 yBP / 4341 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a2a1a-Y13284
mtDNA: W3b

I2512 ( 4265 ± 25 yBP / 4846 yBP )
Y-DNA: T-M184 
mtDNA: HV / HV9

Morocco Kehf-el-Baroud ( 4950 yBP - Late Neolithic )
( 4940 ± 30 yBP ) other: 5565 ± 65 yBP
KEB.6
Y-DNA: T1a1a - L162
mtDNA: K1a4a1

Russia Ipatovo 3 ( 5400 yBP - Early Bronze Age ) Early Steppe Maykop Culture
IV3002 ( 5383 ± 64 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1 -CTS6004 probablyT1a2a-Y8614
mtDNA: X1'2'3

Israel Peqi'in Cave ( 6150 yBP - Late Chalcolithic ) 9 Samples !! ! Most ever found in one place and 4th oldest samples
I1155
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: K1a

I1160
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: N1a1b

I1165
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: HV1a’b’c’

I1166
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: H

I1170
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: T1a2

I1172
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: K1a

I1178
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: I6

I1180
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: T

I1187
Y-DNA: T1a1a1b2 - CTS2214
mtDNA: U6d
Peqi'in Cave atDNA notes: Northern origin. They also carry the WHG G allele for Blue eyes at Rs12913832.

Bulgaria Varna (6500 yBP-Chalcolithic) Varna Culture
ANI152
Y-DNA: T-Y3804 (x T1-Y3813)
mtDNA: U2

Germany Karsdorf ( 7100yBP - Early Neolithic ) LBK Culture
I0795 
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: H1 or H1au1b*

I0797 
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: H46b

Kars537 ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: J1c6a

Bulgaria Malak Preslavets ( 7600yBP - Mesolithic/Early Neolithic ) Criș Culture
I0700
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e

I1108
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e

Jordan 'Ain Ghazal ( 9600 yBP - Early Neolithic ) Late Middle PPNB ( 9573 ± 39 yBP )
Oldest Haplogroup T sample on record
I1707
Y-DNA: T1a - M70
mtDNA: R0a
Oldest Haplogroup T sample ever found

----------


## Salento

@MrT 

... R850 Latin Tribe Ardea 650 BC
Y-DNA T1a1a T-L208 
mtDNA T2c1f

----------


## Salento

*I3403* _Skeleton Lake Traveler_ 1805 AD
Y-DNA _T1a2 (L131)_ - mtDNA *X2d*

coordinates:
_Dodecad K7 K12b K13 - MDLP K16 - EU K13 K15 K36
_


```

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Dod_K7b,0.00,27.35,0.00,0.40,34.38,37.09,0.77

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Dod_K12b,4.91,0.00,1.54,0.70,25.57,17.55,0.36,0.48,11.88,0.00,37.00,0.00

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Dod_K13_G,0.00,0.24,0.41,0.00,16.56,0.87,36.11,0.00,0.27,24.98,20.56,0.00,0.00

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_MDLP_K16,0.00,0.00,9.57,0.00,0.72,0.16,44.88,0.44,12.51,3.62,24.82,2.88,0.00,0.39,0.00,0.00

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_EU_K13,16.10,8.21,23.64,14.20,32.79,2.25,0.71,1.45,0.00,0.13,0.00,0.00,0.51

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_EU_K15,11.31,11.46,6.92,0.22,20.25,13.18,30.80,2.89,1.16,1.01,0.00,0.21,0.00,0.00,0.59

I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_EU_K36,0.00,2.33,6.50,0.00,0.00,6.11,0.00,0.00,10.17,0.00,0.00,20.73,0.00,1.83,1.13,1.08,0.00,16.65,0.00,13.26,0.00,5.34,0.86,2.33,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.21,8.48
```

http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/




Distance to:
I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Dod_K13

2.13883146
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R57

2.37934865
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R54

2.49481462
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R64

2.70242484
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R58

3.08019480
Imperial_Era_Palestrina_:R436

3.59062669
Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche_:R835

3.84728476
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R65

4.00051247
Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche_:R836

4.17557182
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R59

4.28486873
Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro_:R136

4.29489232
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R52

4.56857746
Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis_:R49

4.64731105
Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_:R973

4.65300978
Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_:R131

4.69716936
Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_:R1544

4.76908796
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R53

4.89778521
Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R117

5.14442417
Late_Antiquity_Celio_:R35

5.20579485
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R1290

5.50892912
Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R121

5.64719399
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R60

5.73303584
Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_:R970

5.76404372
Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R118

5.96233176
Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna_:R56

6.01774044
Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_:R122

----------


## Salento

... by “coincidence” _ R120_ _(T1a2... T-L446) ..._ Dodecad K12 top ancient match has my mtDNA :) 
(R1283 mtDNA H12 - Y-DNA J2b)



R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia,5. 11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.2 1

----------


## torzio

> ... by “coincidence” _ R120_ _(T1a2... T-L446) ..._ Dodecad K12 top ancient match has my mtDNA :) 
> (R1283 mtDNA H12 - Y-DNA J2b)
> 
> 
> 
> R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia,5. 11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.2 1



is R120 on gedmatch?

----------


## Salento

> is R120 on gedmatch?


I doubt it, ... many ancient sample files are not in compliance with the new GedMatch standard and therefore are rejected.

I’ll try and get the the R120 file, ....

----------


## Salento

R120 nMonte K36 and Traits



R120_EU_K36,0.00,6.36,1.18,1.73,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0,3.18,0.00,0.00,9.17,2.24,0.00,4.30,19.08,0.00,25 .36,0.00,12.20,0.00,6.15,0.00,0.20,0.00,0.00,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.36,7.48

----------


## Salento

*R120* 500 AD - S. Ercolano Necropolis, Ostia 

Y-DNA: T-L446 / T-Y6055 (T1a2...) - mtDNA: I1c

_Dodecad_ K7 K12b K13gl - _MDLP_ K16 - _EU_ K13 K15 K36 Coordinates:



```
R120_Dod_K7b,0.00,20.48,0.15,1.32,34.13,43.93,0.00

R120_Dod_K12b,5.11,0.47,2.10,0.00,33.79,17.98,0.00,1.11,11.27,0.00,27.96,0.21

R120_Dod_13gl,0.00,0.00,1.19,0.00,17.69,0.00,39.40,0.00,0.52,15.97,24.92,0.00,0.31

R120_MDLP_K16,0.00,0.39,12.38,0.00,0.00,0.00,34.07,0.00,10.09,4.43,33.12,5.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00

R120_EU_K13,27.93,6.61,22.63,6.72,29.07,5.86,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.36,0.45

R120_EU_K15,13.26,20.63,3.23,2.45,19.30,8.07,26.09,6.24,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.73,0.00

R120_EU_K36,0.00,6.36,1.18,1.73,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.18,0.00,0.00,9.17,2.24,0.00,4.30,19.08,0.00,25.36,0.00,12.20,0.00,6.15,0.00,0.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.36,7.48
```

----------


## Salento

*R120* top Roman matches on official PCA:

Dod K7 and Dod K12 (R1283) - Dod K13 (R107)




Dod K7b
0.74505033
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1283_Cancelleria



Dod K12b
2.10130912
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria



Dod K13
4.27562861
Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi_:R107

----------


## Salento

*R120*  K36 Map:
Rome (Lazio) and Toscana, ...

----------


## Salento

I’ve noticed that as the Official Ancient Roman PCA goes, ...the Dodecad K12 *top* “Distance” might be the most accurate.

----------


## torzio

> *R120* 500 AD - S. Ercolano Necropolis, Ostia 
> 
> Y-DNA: T-L446 / T-Y6055 (T1a2...) - mtDNA: I1c
> 
> _Dodecad_ K7 K12b K13gl - _MDLP_ K16 - _EU_ K13 K15 K36 Coordinates:
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Seems like R120 was ancient etruscan 

in Yfull T-Y6055 is known as T-Z19917 and is 7800ybp ..............similar times/period to the neolithic german and bulgarian T samples

----------


## Salento

*R1543* (1 CE - 400 CE) Mazzano Romano, Necropolis of Monte Agnese
Y-DNA T-Z709 / T-CTS5299
mtDNA H1e






```
R1543_Dod_K7b,0.54,32.30,0.00,1.56,39.30,26.31,0.00

R1543_Dod_K12b,8.92,0.00,5.86,0.00,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95,0.00,38.92,0.31

R1543_Dod_13gl,0.00,1.03,0.92,0.61,22.37,0.26,35.18,0.00,0.00,28.28,10.65,0.67,0.02

R1543_MDLP_K16,0.00,0.00,10.00,1.33,0.00,0.00,45.35,0.00,7.09,7.57,23.94,3.30,0.00,0.00,0.37,1.03

R1543_EU_K13,16.59,0.91,17.01,14.98,40.18,7.37,1.27,0.74,0.00,0.15,0.00,0.24,0.56

R1543_EU_K15,4.64,14.75,3.57,0.00,13.01,14.86,39.84,7.00,0.80,0.69,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.73,0.11

R1543_EU_K36,0.00,5.86,6.13,0.63,0.00,0.30,0.00,0.00,1.61,0.00,1.41,23.59,0.00,0.00,1.32,2.37,0.00,21.90,0.00,15.88,3.88,0.00,6.32,2.47,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.23,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.01,3.11
```

----------


## Salento

*R850* - _Latin Tribe Ardea_ - 800 BCE - 500 BCE
Y-DNA_ T-L208 (T1a1a)_
mtDNA T2c1f

K36 MAP, Dodecad K7b K12b K13 - MDLP k16 -EU K13 K15 K36 coordinates:






```
R850_Dod_K7b,0.00,32.01,0.00,1.09,39.03,27.20,0.67


R850_Dod_K12b,7.30,0.00,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0.00,0.43,14.77,0.00,40.10,0.00


R850_Dod_13gl,0.00,0.00,0.69,0.33,21.44,0.46,35.17,0.00,0.50,27.91,13.33,0.00,0.17


R850_MDLP_K16,0.53,0.00,10.75,0.00,0.00,0.00,44.23,0.00,5.28,7.74,27.94,1.34,0.25,0.69,0.00,1.25


R850_EU_K13,11.62,6.21,21.32,16.86,32.99,9.34,0.00,0.69,0.66,0.00,0.00,0.31,0.00


R850_EU_K15,0.39,14.49,7.18,0.00,18.05,19.14,29.44,9.85,0.00,0.18,0.86,0.13,0.00,0.28,0.00


R850_EU_K36,0,1.51,5.87,0,0,0,0,0,6.01,0,0.29,18.68,0,0.59,2.02,10.96,0,15.30,0,20.76,0.20,0,2.10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8.95,6.75
```

----------


## Salento

*I4055* (200-400 CE) Plaza Einstein, Granada, Andalucía, Spain
(Roman Villa Granada)
Y-DNA T-L490
mtDNA U3a1

... coordinates:



```
I4055_Dod_K7b,0.00,8.83,2.52,4.38,35.66,48.60,0.00

I4055_Dod_K12b,6.34,0.29,11.67,0.00,35.87,20.88,0.00,3.68,15.38,0.36,5.46,0.06

I4055_Dod_K13gl,1.98,0.00,0.70,0.80,18.09,0.00,37.31,2.52,0.06,10.63,23.75,0.00,4.16

I4055_MDLP_K16,0.00,0.00,11.53,0.00,0.00,0.00,33.10,0.00,13.59,9.60,28.96,1.06,0.00,0.66,1.51,0.00

I4055_EU_K13,20.45,18.45,18.77,0.00,21.79,11.72,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.50,0.57,4.75

I40551_EU_K15,8.70,17.77,8.33,10.61,15.49,0.00,19.27,11.84,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.78,1.73,3.48

I4055_EU_K36,0.00,0.00,0.00,5.90,0.00,4.44,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,14.75,22.34,3.48,3.25,0.00,16.59,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,12.10,2.55,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.69,0.00,0.57,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,10.36
```

----------


## Salento

_Shared DNA Segments ... 
_(my settings on results)

Salento vs R120 (Ostia - Rome ~ 500 AD) & I3403 (Skeleton Lake Traveler ~ 1805 AD)

*R120* (total Mb 4.02)


*I3403* (2.30 Mb)



https://www.math.mun.ca/~dapike/FF23utils/pair-comp.php

----------


## Salento

_Shared DNA Segments ..._ 
(my settings on results)

Salento vs: y T Vikings  :Grin: 

*VK17*


*VK398*



https://www.math.mun.ca/~dapike/FF23utils/pair-comp.php

----------


## torzio

> _Shared DNA Segments ..._ 
> (my settings on results)
> 
> Salento vs: y T Vikings 
> 
> *VK17*
> 
> 
> *VK398*
> ...



I found you ( roots ) ...................so, name change for you.....Salento Ragner

----------


## torzio

not sure what the code is for VK398 in gedmatch

----------


## torzio

G25

Sweden_Skara:VK398,0.129758,0.128972,0.053174,0.03 3592,0.029852,0.008367,0.00423,0.008077,0.00225,0. 001822,-0.004709,0.006145,-0.01115,0.001651,0.022937,-0.004906,-0.021905,0.000127,0.006662,-0.001251,0.011105,0.010016,0,0.010363,0.00479

----------


## torzio

Target: Sweden_Skara:VK398
Distance: 2.2692% / 0.02269218


71.4
Germanic_Frisii



22.2
Italic-Illyrian



3.2
Germanic_Longobard



2.8
Mongol



0.4
Iranic_Persian

----------


## Salento

> not sure what the code is for VK398 in gedmatch


... that’s not GedMatch, ... see the Link on the posts, 

edit: Ged... #

VK398 # PQ6174821

VK17 # EZ7862915

----------


## Salento

_one to one ... vs VK398 & VK17

VK398
(... 25 3 3)
_
_
VK17
(... 25 3)
_

----------


## Salento

_... where there's a will there's a way_ :) 

... one to one vs R120
(25 3 3)

----------


## Salento

_one to one:
_
Iapygian_me vs y T Latin R850 and R1b Latin R437  :Grin: 
(25 3 3)

*R850*


*R437
*

----------


## torzio

> _one to one ... vs VK398 & VK17
> 
> VK398
> (... 25 3 3)
> _
> _
> VK17
> (... 25 3)
> _


myself and VK398

Largest segment = 4.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 37cM (1.033 Pct)

11 shared segments found for this comparison.

511845 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.794 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

> _one to one:
> _
> Iapygian_me vs y T Latin R850 and R1b Latin R437 
> (25 3 3)
> 
> *R850*
> 
> 
> *R437
> *


me and R850

Largest segment = 4.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 38.8cM (1.083 Pct)

11 shared segments found for this comparison.

362601 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.172 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

myself and VK17


Largest segment = 4.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 36.3cM (1.014 Pct)

10 shared segments found for this comparison.

307749 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.119 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

Interesting

*"Haplotype Diversity in mtDNA and Y Chromosome in Populations of Altai–Sayan Region"*, where *T is found among a Kazakh group with* *38,8%(19/49)*. Also, the same study finds 6,1%(3/49) of J2 and 6,1%(3/49) of R1a1 among the same Kazakh group. These results should be related to the ancient DNA results of the *Otyrar Kangju population* (and also related to the individuals from previous other studies which included Turk, Karakhanid, Karluk population analysis, all very close to the BMAC ancestry like the Kangju) in the recent "*Ancient genomic time transect from the Central Asian Steppe unravels the history of the Scythians" study and the earlier "Damgaard" study.*

----------


## torzio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otrar


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangju


The individuals from the ancient city of Otyrar Oasis in southern Kazakhstan show a quite distinct genetic profile. Three of five individuals (“Konyr_Tobe_300CE”) fall close to the published Kangju_250CE individuals from a similar time period and region (_11_),* between Sarmatians and BMAC* (Fig. 2C).


During this period, Otyrar was a main center of the Kangju kingdom and a crossroad along the Silk Road (_29_). In the neighboring region of the Tian Shan mountains,

----------


## Salento

R120 vs Etruscan (R473)

(25 3 3)

----------


## Salento

Messapo_me vs Signorina Etrusca :) 
(R473 - mtDNA U5a1)

(25 3)

----------


## Salento

off topic - out of curiosity,

R473 K36 map:

----------


## Salento

... one to one:

S vs: T1a1... R1543 (Mazzano Romano) & T1a2... I3403 (Skeleton Lake Traveler)

_R1543_


_I3403
_

----------


## Salento

... just because ... ,

one to one - Ancient Italian Women:

R1 (Proto-Villanovan) vs R473 (Etruscan)

----------


## Salento

y T-L208 (T1a1a) *Latin R850* _vs_ y J-451881 (J2b) *R474* *Etruscan*:





Salento _vs_ R474 Etruscan

----------


## Salento

one to one

_​S vs R1543 (T-Z709) & I3403 (T1a2 / T-L131)_

... vs R1543


... vs I3403


# HM8000490 - R1543
# SE8331548 - I3403

----------


## Salento

one to one ... Skeleton Lake Travelers:_

I3403 (y T1a2 / T-L131) vs (mtDNA H12a) I3404 & I6937

_I3403 vs I3404


I3403 vs I6937



# SE8331548 - I3403
# FL2511377 - I3404
# JP7368712 - I6937

----------


## Salento

> *R120* top Roman matches on official PCA:
> 
> Dod K7 and Dod K12 (R1283) - Dod K13 (R107)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dod K7b
> 0.74505033
> ...



R120 (y T1a2 - T-L446) closest matches are R1283 (mtDNA H12) and R107 (... kind of similar to a modern Pugliese, I think).

_one to one:_

R120 vs R1283


S vs R107


# SQ3766558 - R120
# TX7344781 - R1283
# QM2020145 - R107

----------


## torzio

myself with R120

Largest segment = 4.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 40.5cM (1.128 Pct)

*12 shared segments* found for this comparison.

304988 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.143 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

myself with R1283


Largest segment = 3.8 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 30.5cM (0.851 Pct)

9 shared segments found for this comparison.

474346 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.547 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## torzio

this is still my closest

me and R1


Largest segment = 6.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 123.3cM (3.437 Pct)

*33 shared segments* found for this comparison.

648286 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.59 Pct SNPs are full identical

----------


## Salento

*134* _GedM_... # *R* :

_127 Ancient from Central Italy & 7 Bronze/Copper Age Sardinians:_

----------


## Salento

_Raw-Data - Combined and AncestryDNA format_

y T Romans & y T Vikings


_R120:
_
Combined
https://www.mediafire.com/file/twooo...Ostia.zip/file

AncestryDNA
https://www.mediafire.com/file/5bk2h...ryDNA.zip/file

_R1543:_

Combined
https://www.mediafire.com/file/sscrn...gnese.zip/file

AncestryDNA
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ldw28...ryDNA.zip/file



_R850:

_Combined
https://www.mediafire.com/file/7ex73...Ardea.zip/file

AncestryDNA
https://www.mediafire.com/file/88pbb...ryDNA.zip/file

_VK17:
_
Combined
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ddm1j...bined.zip/file

AncestryDNA
https://www.mediafire.com/file/3h6oi...ryDNA.zip/file


_VK398:

_Combined
https://www.mediafire.com/file/ucg3m...bined.zip/file

AncestryDNA
https://www.mediafire.com/file/cv3vm...ryDNA.zip/file

----------


## Mineiro25

> hi
> i know my paternal linage back to 1730 from city of shiraz from a lore tribe called zand and i found i have Y HG T.
> i wonder which ancient peoplein iran or mesoptamie had this kind of Y HG before arrival of aryans with R1a y hg ?
> regards


Nice Topic

----------


## Salento

... on the Roof of the World, though Romans like ... I3403 (y T1a2...) & I3404 (mt H12a),
... they are next to each other on my # chrome :)

----------


## torzio

> ... on the Roof of the World, though Romans like ... I3403 (y T1a2...) & I3404 (mt H12a),
> ... they are next to each other on my # chrome :)



in the Sicilian paper there are 34 x T ..........26 are T1a1 .........8 are T1a2 ................do you have any records apart that they are T1a2-CTS933....this group https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS933/

----------


## torzio

This split basically breaks off from T1a2-CTS3767 .............formed 7500 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp

so we have split off a very very long time ago

----------


## Salento

> in the Sicilian paper there are 34 x T ..........26 are T1a1 .........8 are T1a2 ................do you have any records apart that they are T1a2-CTS933....this group https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS933/


I’m not familiar with this particular Sicilian paper, but I'd like to read it,

... if only I had the link to it ... :)

----------


## torzio

> I’m not familiar with this particular Sicilian paper, but I'd like to read it,
> 
> ... if only I had the link to it ... :)


I will see what I can do

----------


## torzio

*Kars537* ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )


House/Phase: O / 2
Y-DNA: *T1a1a2-Y63197* (xBY154289)
mtDNA: J1c6a
Sr isotope: Native to Unstruttal ( Rang Group limit )
Diet (d13C%0 / d15N%0): -19.7 / 8.9 (highest Animal Protein)
Age at Death: 25–30
Death Position: Stretched Dorsal southeast
Other ID: Feature 537 / Museum no 2004:26340a / 14C id KIA-40357
Sample: Skull
Read Pairs: 122,568,310
Mean Coverage: 2.96X
Virus: Hepatitis B ( HBV )
Autosomal notes: High CHG
Files: FASTQ / FASTQ (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-SAM=>sorted BAM)



The first of the Karsdorf 3 neolithic ancient T samples to be added by Yfull

----------


## Salento

The Hackers are probably having an impact, MTA doesn’t list I0797 Kar16a haplogroups, … the Research Link goes to the “_edited_” Wikipedia page  :Annoyed: 

… I uploaded one of the Karsdorf sample to MTA:

----------


## torzio

> The Hackers are probably having an impact, MTA doesn’t list I0797 Kar16a haplogroups, … the Research Link goes to the “_edited_” Wikipedia page 
> 
> … I uploaded one of the Karsdorf sample to MTA:


you should do a Malek one as well and see if the two are linked .ie Germany and Bulgaria

----------


## Salento

> you should do a Malek one as well and see if the two are linked .ie Germany and Bulgaria


_I1108 Malak Preslavets_
Timiline + … :








_I0700 Malak Preslavets
_Timiline + … :










```
I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Dod_K12b,0.00,0.00,2.21,0.37,42.93,36.24,0.00,0.00,7.78,0.22,9.65,0.61
I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Dod_K12b,0.00,0.00,2.08,1.14,49.17,30.37,0.00,0.00,6.38,0.00,10.05,0.81


I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,0.86,0.04,7.96,0.00,42.48,1.35,0.73,0.00,46.23,0.00,0.37
I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.86,0.00,8.47,0.08,46.21,0.22,0.68,0.00,42.47,0.00,0.00
```

----------


## torzio

> _I1108 Malak Preslavets_
> Timiline + … :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great

So we know that karsdorf 3 samples and Malek 2 samples have the same ydna marker of *T1a1a2-Y63197*

----------


## Salento

… double checking  :Grin: 

I0700 & I1108 general y Haplogroup overview:

… they’re y T … !!!

----------


## Salento

.. my new MTA civilization video (… to gif) :

… the Roman Standard has a Tarantula, … they’re obviously Salentini  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

> .. my new MTA civilization video (… to gif) :
> 
> … the Roman Standard has a Tarantula, … they’re obviously Salentini



looks like a scorpion to me ...........though it has too many legs

----------


## Salento

> looks like a scorpion to me ...........though it has too many legs


 … lol ………..

----------


## torzio

*Ftdna BigY split for Haplogroup T under snp Z19945 block*

There are extra splitting off of snp from the big Z19945 ...........see below

BY143483 - Italians and Poles

FT62750 - Poles, Ukraine's and Belorussians

FT158444 - Belgium's

Z19950 - Belgium's, Czechs and Germans


*23 samples in total*

----------


## Salento

the R outliers according to M.L. Antonio:

… y T Iron-Age Latin R850 does NOT rise to official Outlier status, … please stop calling him that :) 



https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

----------


## Salento

There’s a campaign of sabotage against some y T samples to the point that they are hacking and replacing T with R1b and other stuff, … I don’t know the reasons, … besides total lack of respect towards all the Ancient Y T Tribes, modern Y T members, and me! … not cool !

----------


## Duarte

> There’s a campaign of sabotage against some y T samples to the point that they are hacking and replacing T with R1b and other stuff, … I don’t know the reasons, … besides total lack of respect towards all the Ancient Y T Tribes, modern Y T members, and me! … not cool !


Hi Salento. 
*Hackers* came from the ‘*deep web*’ (dark side of web) to eliminate *yT* from the ‘*surface web*’ (clean side of web). *Yamnas* came from the *steppe* to eliminate *yT* from the *Europe*. Perhaps the resemblance is not a mere coincidence.  :Petrified:  :Laughing: 

I think I tried to make a joke. But I also know that I’m not very good at it, so the joke can seems to be not funny, lol.

Good Night dear friend Salento  :Good Job:  :Smile:

----------


## Salento

You’re OK Duarte :) … lol
… I thought the same thing, … the Descendants of the ‘Steppe’ want to finish the job  :Petrified:

----------


## torzio

> *Kars537* ( 6958 ± 49 yBP )
> 
> 
> House/Phase: O / 2
> Y-DNA: *T1a1a2-Y63197* (xBY154289)
> mtDNA: J1c6a
> Sr isotope: Native to Unstruttal ( Rang Group limit )
> Diet (d13C%0 / d15N%0): -19.7 / 8.9 (highest Animal Protein)
> Age at Death: 25–30
> ...



notes below from the T ydna project team at Ftdna
.................................

Finally, one of the Karsdorf remains BAM files, has been uploaded to the YFULL tree.



Looks like we have a 3th branch basally splited from T-Y63197 in eastern Europe. 

This results, potentially push the T-L162 presence in europe from the 7600 ybp of Malak Preslavets to 9000 ybp.

This is just 3000 years after the connection with T-L208, the biggest modern T lineage.



*Since the most basal L208 split is found in the ancient Italian Peninsula*, I find very likely that our common T-L162 ancestor was found very close to the eastern Balkans if not in anyplace between the European Steppes and the Aegean Sea.



The whole T-L162 modern community could have started our Mesolithic Journey in this ancient european landscape.



This looks well supported by the fact that T and specially T-L162 is completly non-existent among all the early Neolithic Anatolian samples and most importantly, not found among the most ancient Neolithic cities of southeast Anatolia.



The earliest T-L162 sample (Malak Preslavets) harbor a significant ~50% eastern european Mesolithic DNA pattern (aside of the fact that exist significant incidence of Aegean DNA among Balkan Mesolithic individuals).

----------


## Hawk

It should be a PPNB lineage, many of them joined early Proto Afro-Asiatics as well, i would expect Cushites, Egyptians to carry some Y-DNA T.

Relatively rare all over the globe.

----------


## torzio

> It should be a PPNB lineage, many of them joined early Proto Afro-Asiatics as well, i would expect Cushites, Egyptians to carry some Y-DNA T.
> 
> Relatively rare all over the globe.



Only T ydna I have seen which is ancient belongs to T-pages004 ....it went into Egypt from the levant with R-V88

I have already placed the paper ( from ms Smith ) on this a year or 2 ago

----------


## Salento

@Torzio from Post #441,

if the most basal L208 split is found in Ancient Italy, … Latin Ardea R850 (T-L208) is undoubtedly a mainstream Sample.

… bet you that if R850 was R1b nobody would have falsely called him an Outlier, regardless of his ancestral background.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> You’re OK Duarte :) … lol
> … I thought the same thing, … the Descendants of the ‘Steppe’ want to finish the job


I am honestly confused as to why some people do these things... Like it has to be some obsession. Not sure which page they hacked, or why people would mess with wikipedia and stuff. My only hunch leads me to mental instability as an answer.

----------


## Salento

> I am honestly confused as to why some people do these things... Like it has to be some obsession. Not sure which page they hacked, or why people would mess with wikipedia and stuff. My only hunch leads me to mental instability as an answer.


… Thread about it:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post624736

compromised Wikipedia page, .. the 2 samples are not R1b, they are both y T !
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains

----------


## Archetype0ne

> … Thread about it:
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post624736
> 
> compromised Wikipedia page, .. the 2 samples are not R1b, they are both y T !
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karsdorf_remains


Interesting. Did not pay much attention to T before. Looks like some branches, such as T1a1* and some other sub branches could have been incorporated into the IE peoples before coming to Europe, just a remark looking at the ancient samples and the diversity of flags for this very specific sub branch (as if you look at other branches, it is a very old haplogroup that probably spread much much earlier with HG).

About this guy on wikipedia, it seems he is confused or something.

*removed sensitive information

Using Occam's razor, he is probably just confused. Have not read the paper myself, but yeah, unless there is a supplementary table with the results clearly laid up, his ignorance might a valid alibi. But if the info is smack on a table in the supplements of the paper, this could be malicious intent and disinformation.

I will delete the image in a bit. Don't want to expose this guys IP, although it is in the public domain.

----------


## torzio

> Interesting. Did not pay much attention to T before. Looks like some branches, such as T1a1* and some other sub branches could have been incorporated into the IE peoples before coming to Europe, just a remark looking at the ancient samples and the diversity of flags for this very specific sub branch (as if you look at other branches, it is a very old haplogroup that probably spread much much earlier with HG).
> 
> About this guy on wikipedia, it seems he is confused or something.
> 
> *removed sensitive information
> 
> Using Occam's razor, he is probably just confused. Have not read the paper myself, but yeah, unless there is a supplementary table with the results clearly laid up, his ignorance might a valid alibi. But if the info is smack on a table in the supplements of the paper, this could be malicious intent and disinformation.
> 
> I will delete the image in a bit. Don't want to expose this guys IP, although it is in the public domain.


that is not the case , I wrote to the person ( a administrator for T and L ydna ) who presented the initial data about karsdorf samples and other ancient T samples, and he stated to me on messenger that it has been 2 years that people from Africa have been trying to change all T ydna to either R1b or R1a and so leave Africa as purely a T and E ydna zone ..............apparently to justify their ideas

----------


## torzio

> *Ftdna BigY split for Haplogroup T under snp Z19945 block*
> 
> There are extra splitting off of snp from the big Z19945 ...........see below
> 
> BY143483 - Italians and Poles
> 
> FT62750 - Poles, Ukraine's and Belorussians
> 
> FT158444 - Belgium's
> ...




Another *3 x Poles and 2 x Ukraine's* added to Ftdna T project .................all are positive for Z19945 plus positive for pages000113

----------


## torzio

Another T1a2 from old Eneti lands ie ancient Pala area in Northern Anatolia

Location Paphlagonia

Ethnicity Paphlagonian

Nationality Turkish RepublicY-DNA 

(P)T1a2b

mtDNA (M) HV1A3

----------


## Salento

_Raw Comparer (DNA Kit Studio) …_ kind of similar to GedMatch 1-to-1, though it is local (files on Hard Drive) 

I’m still experimenting with it :) ... y T R850 / R120 / R1543 vs y T Salento:
_

R850 vs Salento :_


_

R120 vs Salento :_


_

R1543 vs Salento :_

----------


## torzio

what ftdna use to track T-M70

----------


## nbvcxz028

What site is this ?

----------


## torzio

Lemba Jews are T1a2-Y47963 only found in South Africa, their story is that they arrived in Africa circa 2200BC. Also Interestingly, there is found at least 9........... Y47963 in China.

In Yfull .....Y47963 sits under T-Y13244

----------


## torzio

> what ftdna use to track T-M70



SNP tracker now has T-Z19945 now in Marche Italy .................ftdna has 17 branches coming out of Z19945

----------


## Salento

> SNP tracker now has T-Z19945 now in Marche Italy .................ftdna has 17 branches coming out of Z19945


Our terminal y is in Etruria, regardless of findings  :Grin: 

… rare and widespread, in antiquity too.

----------


## torzio

> Our terminal y is in Etruria, regardless of findings 
> 
> … rare and widespread, in antiquity too.


I thought it was more in the area between umbria to romagna area of the adriatic sea.....i could not see it on the western sea side

----------


## Salento

> I thought it was more in the area between umbria to romagna area of the adriatic sea.....i could not see it on the western sea side


our “Terminal” (SK1480) is in Toscana or at the edge, or a bit over … Z19945 and … are Adriatics (East towards North East Italy)

----------


## Salento

We’re too picky and annoying, that’s why we’re going extinct, … I’ve been told  :Petrified:

----------


## torzio

> our “Terminal” (SK1480) is in Toscana or at the edge, or a bit over … Z19945 and … are Adriatics (East towards North East Italy)


There has been a lot of old T found around L'Aquila town and lands and also its surrounding mountains

some tribes involved

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraceni_(tribe)

check
Messina F, Finocchio A, Rolfo MF, De Angelis F, Rapone C, Coletta M, Martínez-Labarga C, Biondi G, Berti A, Rickards O (2015). "Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight". _American Journal of Human Biology_. *27* (4): 508–19. doi:10.1002/ajhb.22677. PMID 25728801. S2CID 30111156.

----------


## Salento

> There has been a lot of old T found around L'Aquila town and lands and also its surrounding mountains
> 
> some tribes involved
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraceni_(tribe)
> 
> check
> Messina F, Finocchio A, Rolfo MF, De Angelis F, Rapone C, Coletta M, Martínez-Labarga C, Biondi G, Berti A, Rickards O (2015). "Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight". _American Journal of Human Biology_. *27* (4): 508–19. doi:10.1002/ajhb.22677. PMID 25728801. S2CID 30111156.


Not everyone thrives on the mountains, some of us do better than others:




…Some people are susceptible to high altitude illness after rapidly ascending from plains. The syndrome is called acute mountain sickness (AMS) and is characterized by headache, anorexia, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, and sleep disturbance. The main cause of the syndrome is believed to be lack of the oxygen in the body, but a recent study suggested that the genetic factors play an important role in the development of AMS …

----------


## bigsnake49

> There has been a lot of old T found around L'Aquila town and lands and also its surrounding mountains
> 
> some tribes involved
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraceni_(tribe)
> 
> check
> Messina F, Finocchio A, Rolfo MF, De Angelis F, Rapone C, Coletta M, Martínez-Labarga C, Biondi G, Berti A, Rickards O (2015). "Traces of forgotten historical events in mountain communities in Central Italy: A genetic insight". _American Journal of Human Biology_. *27* (4): 508–19. doi:10.1002/ajhb.22677. PMID 25728801. S2CID 30111156.


My wife's maternal grandfather come from Rocca di Mezzo which is very close to L' Aquila. I wonder what his Y-DNA would have been.

----------


## kingjohn

only abstract : 

The Dutch Y-chromosomal landscape from the Early Middle Ages to present day


DNA is a powerful source of information in reconstructing past population demographic processes. *Here we present historical Y-chromosomal data from nearly 350 medieval and Early Modern Period (450-1850 CE) individuals from 13 locations across the Netherlands.* With these data, in combination with comparable data from the present-day population of the Netherlands, we are able to test for geo-genetic patterns during different periods and population continuity. This contributes to the reconstruction of the male population history of the Netherlands over the past 1.5k years from a genetic perspective.

Using different methods we observed statistically significant differences in time and space. We could, however, not reject population continuity. The changes in geo-genetic patterns for the Y-chromosome in the Netherlands from the Early Middle Ages to present day indicate that the modern patterns formed only recently. Since we cannot reject population continuity, drift (changes of allele frequency due to chance) needs to be considered as a key factor in these changes. We should therefore be careful to assign frequency changes of genetic markers over time to specific historical events.

*We also made an interesting observation on a local level. Only one of the sites from which we collected historical samples, the town of Eindhoven, contained samples attributed to Y-chromosomal haplogroup T and also in relatively high frequencies.* This haplogroup, however, is very rare today in the Netherlands and Europe overall, but considered to have been brought along to Europe with the medieval Jewish diaspora. Since Eindhoven was founded around 1200 CE as a market place, and Jews were typically restricted to working in finance and trade during this period in Europe, we may have an indication for a Jewish community in Medieval Eindhoven, something that had not been observed in the archaeological record otherwise.


source: 
https://submissions-e--a--a-org.tran...,se,op,elem,sc



p.s
i disagree
*haplogroup T* is not common in jews the source should be other than jews 
or earlier

----------


## torzio

> only abstract : 
> 
> The Dutch Y-chromosomal landscape from the Early Middle Ages to present day
> 
> 
> DNA is a powerful source of information in reconstructing past population demographic processes. *Here we present historical Y-chromosomal data from nearly 350 medieval and Early Modern Period (450-1850 CE) individuals from 13 locations across the Netherlands.* With these data, in combination with comparable data from the present-day population of the Netherlands, we are able to test for geo-genetic patterns during different periods and population continuity. This contributes to the reconstruction of the male population history of the Netherlands over the past 1.5k years from a genetic perspective.
> 
> Using different methods we observed statistically significant differences in time and space. We could, however, not reject population continuity. The changes in geo-genetic patterns for the Y-chromosome in the Netherlands from the Early Middle Ages to present day indicate that the modern patterns formed only recently. Since we cannot reject population continuity, drift (changes of allele frequency due to chance) needs to be considered as a key factor in these changes. We should therefore be careful to assign frequency changes of genetic markers over time to specific historical events.
> 
> ...



there is a jewish site which gives all the branches of T ( based on snp ) which are Jewish or non-Jewish .....................it also does other Ydna branches


I have only 1 x T.... DNA match in the Netherlands ..................East Frisian in origin, ...Christina Tax family line ...............Tax surname, impossible to use on the net



https://sites.google.com/view/ashken...ashkenazi-jews

----------


## torzio

Awaiting response from a swiss woman who has 3 x T1a2 ydna relatives in her family tree ( age range looks 1780 to 1950 )

surnames are
Carrara ................. ( I think it was originally Carrera from Songrio Lombardy, my guess )
Steiner
Seitz

area in question ..........East Switzerland ( I presume the Italian section ) .........North Tyrol and South Tyrol

----------


## Salento

Kars537:





SZ36:





raw-data (comb. and standard 23, Ancestry, …):

Kars537
https://www.mediafire.com/file/8ob06...rs537.zip/file

SZ36
https://www.mediafire.com/file/7ylbk.../sz36.zip/file


GedM...:

# HZ8647162 - Kars537
# QG2674693 - SZ36

----------


## torzio

New finding of T-L162 in the Luka Papac et al. paper. "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe"


settlement of Kolín-Šťáralka ( Central Bohemia ), are found to belong to T-L162.



Site: Kolín-Šťáralka
Culture: Funnelbeaker Culture / Trichterbecherkultur
SubCulture: Baalberge Group
Period: Early Eneolithic ( Late Neolithic )
Years Before Present: 4908±25

----------


## torzio

Ancient DNA from Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis (Olalde et al 2021) "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples"



They found T-L131

ID: *I15532*



mtDNA: J2b1c


Grave type: Freely buried deceased
Period: Roman Empire
Province: Moesia (Balkans)

----------


## kingjohn

> Ancient DNA from Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis (Olalde et al 2021) "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples"
> 
> 
> 
> They found T-L131
> 
> ID: *I15532*
> 
> 
> ...


cool :Cool V: 
it is close to your branch under T :Smile:

----------


## Salento

> New finding of T-L162 in the Luka Papac et al. paper. "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe"
> 
> 
> settlement of Kolín-Šťáralka ( Central Bohemia ), are found to belong to T-L162.
> 
> 
> 
> Site: Kolín-Šťáralka
> Culture: Funnelbeaker Culture / Trichterbecherkultur
> ...


@Torzio … all of them? If not, … does he have a name / ID?

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio … all of them? If not, … does he have a name / ID?



you mean ID ?

KOB003 - T1a1 ..............mtdna N 

KOB007 - T1a1 ..............mtdna U5

----------


## Salento

> you mean ID ?
> 
> KOB003 - T1a1 ..............mtdna N 
> 
> KOB007 - T1a1 ..............mtdna U5


I said ID too :) … thanks, … so they’re two y T Kobs out of the six on ENA.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...006?show=reads

----------


## Salento

> you mean ID ?
> 
> KOB003 - T1a1 ..............mtdna N 
> 
> KOB007 - T1a1 ..............mtdna U5


GedM...:
KOB003 # RJ1593240
KOB007 # TP8762010

Distance to:
KOB003_Dod_K12b

1.79097739
I1926_Trypillia

3.61076169
I2110_Trypillia

5.01568540
I16163_Sardinia_IA_Anghelu_Ruju

7.01876057
I8561_Sicily_EBA_Isnello

8.07154880
I3124_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II



Distance to:
KOB007_Dod_K12b

5.64938935
I2440_Globular_Amphora

5.65888682
I1926_Trypillia

6.85803179
I2110_Trypillia

7.11959268
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

7.36768620
I0559_QLB15D_Baalberge_MN_Quedlinburg_IX_Germany_3 645-3537_calBCE






```
KOB003_Dod_K12b,0.00,0.00,3.81,0.00,53.94,16.35,0.00,0.00,8.50,0.00,17.40,0.00
KOB007_Dod_K12b,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,57.20,17.89,0.00,2.49,6.68,0.00,15.74,0.00
```



```
KOB003_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.02,11.20,0.00,57.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,29.45,0.00,1.74
KOB007_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,0.24,0.31,9.92,0.00,56.73,0.30,0.00,0.00,31.53,0.00,0.97
```

----------


## torzio

> GedM...:
> KOB003 # RJ1593240
> KOB007 # TP8762010
> 
> Distance to:
> KOB003_Dod_K12b
> 
> 1.79097739
> I1926_Trypillia
> ...



As per T project admin ...............these two samples are related to KARS537


BTW
Have you got a list of every T ydna that has K12b info ?....................I like to compare myself with all the T and see if I can see a trend for my line

----------


## Salento

> As per T project admin ...............these two samples are related to KARS537
> 
> 
> BTW
> Have you got a list of every T ydna that has K12b info ?....................I like to compare myself with all the T and see if I can see a trend for my line


… they are scattered around the forum, I’ll consolidate them, … later :)

----------


## Salento

> As per T project admin ...............these two samples are related to KARS537
> 
> 
> BTW
> Have you got a list of every T ydna that has K12b info ?....................I like to compare myself with all the T and see if I can see a trend for my line


... from various sources, ... most y T Dodecad K12b coordinates of interest:
(I can try to get some more, but you have to be specific)



```
ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32.93,0
R850_Ardea_Latin,7.3,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.1,0
R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21
R1543_Imperial_Rome,8.92,0,5.86,0,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95,0,38.92,0.31
CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom,6,1.15,3.48,0,36.14,24.04,0.16,0.59,7.04,0,21.33,0.07
SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary,5.31,0,2.69,0,32.16,22.1,0.15,0,9.96,0,27.22,0.41
I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern,4.91,0,1.54,0.70,25.57,17.55,0.36,0.48,11.88,0,37,0
I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD,6.34,0.29,11.67,0,35.87,20.88,0,3.68,15.38,0.36,5.46,0.06
Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0,3.81,0.14,50.90,0,0,0.68,15.71,0,28.76,0
Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0,2.60,0,45.47,0,0,0,14.99,0,36.19,0.75
kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0.45,3.45,0,59.31,0,0,0.53,15.77,0,20.49,0
VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga,2.47,2.89,0.05,0.68,28.23,60.27,0,0,0.06,0,3.77,1.58
VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara,8.38,2.47,0.53,0,35.05,41.08,0,0,0.48,0,9.88,2.14
I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic,0,0,2.21,0.37,42.93,36.24,0,0,7.78,0.22,9.65,0.61
I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic,0,0,2.08,1.14,49.17,30.37,0,0,6.38,0,10.05,0.81
KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia,0,0,3.81,0,53.94,16.35,0,0,8.50,0,17.40,0
KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia,0,0,0,0,57.20,17.89,0,2.49,6.68,0,15.74,0
```

----------


## torzio

> ... from various sources, ... most y T Dodecad K12b coordinates of interest:
> (I can try to get some more, but you have to be specific)
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32.93,0
> R850_Ardea_Latin,7.3,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.1,0
> R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21
> ...



i just thought it would be helpful to put them all together 

regards

----------


## torzio

Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 2.2306% / 2.23061290 | ADC: 0.25x RC


45.6
CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom



29.9
SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary



24.5
VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara





very different from MTA in regards to ydna T

----------


## torzio

Distance to:
Torziok12b

4.82277928
CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom

10.29711610
SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary

13.60258064
R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome

17.30128608
I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic

18.43716627
VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara

18.84040870
I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic

22.17713011
I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD

22.56245332
I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern

23.18973911
KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia

25.41673858
KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia

31.09767515
R850_Ardea_Latin

31.47556195
ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic

31.51982392
R1543_Imperial_Rome

34.91681543
Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany

35.19496271
Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany

38.27756523
VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga

38.50644881
kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany

----------


## Salento

… deleted …

----------


## Salento

… none of the latest Etruscans and Daunians are y T.

Etrusco-Latin? … according to modern scholars, the Rutuli (capital Ardea) were probably connected with the Etruscan or Ligurian peoples .

… and we have one Iron-Age y T in Ardea.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutuli

----------


## Salento

I’ve read many papers, … I counted a total of about 50 *Ancient* y T … out of thousands of ancient samples (though I haven't read them all).

Although y T is not a popular Haplogroup even today, the number of ancient samples found is proportionally way too small.

I don’t understand…….

----------


## kingjohn

> ... from various sources, ... most y T Dodecad K12b coordinates of interest:
> (I can try to get some more, but you have to be specific)
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32.93,0
> R850_Ardea_Latin,7.3,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.1,0
> R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21
> ...



look to me like an *early neolithic european* haplogroup :Smile:

----------


## torzio

@salento

Looking at our SK1480 I found a history of a genetic line for sample ERS256892 which sits with me and the pole in yfull

the link states that SK1480 is equal to L131 ...............what does this mean to you ?

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...cordID=1555752

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> Looking at our SK1480 I found a history of a genetic line for sample ERS256892 which sits with me and the pole in yfull
> the link states that SK1480 is equal to L131 ...............what does this mean to you ?
> https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...cordID=1555752


… the link says *equal or downstream* of L131.

… SK1480 is obviously a downstream of L131.

You already know that L131 is our Great great great … Grandpà, Z19945 is Grandpà and BY143483 is our SK1480 Father :)

----------


## torzio

> … the link says *equal or downstream* of L131.
> 
> … SK1480 is obviously a downstream of L131.
> 
> L131 is our Great great great … Grandpà, Z19945 is Grandpà and BY143483 is our SK1480 Father :)



so all the lines are directly linked with SK1480 .................interesting their is no link with ancient Spain

I will chat with T project people

ERS256892 from Sardinia, Italy. is linked directly with me and the Pole .....................Yfull know about SK1480 but do not use it

----------


## torzio

SK1480 found in 2014 ...............are registered with this site?

https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...0&chromosome=Y

----------


## Salento

> so all the lines are directly linked with SK1480 .................interesting their is no link with ancient Spain
> I will chat with T project people
> ERS256892 from Sardinia, Italy. is linked directly with me and the Pole .....................Yfull know about SK1480 but do not use it


I have no idea of any ancient geo links, … you and the Polish man, who’s not a Pole, are the only SK1480 I’m aware of (besides my family)  :Smile:

----------


## Salento

We can only go back a few hundred years, … and they didn’t find any ancient SK1480 or a nearby upstream of it.

… the snptracker map makes an educated guess, … it kind of places SK1480 halfway between our regions of origin:

----------


## torzio

> I have no idea of any ancient geo links, … you and the Polish man, who’s not a Pole, are the only SK1480 I’m aware of (besides my family)


yes........we 3 ..............a type of Musketeer unit 

Pole says .........Thuringia to Netherlands to Gdansk Poland .............and will retire in Norway as family lives there .............

your line moving from Italy to USA

mine from Italy to Australia

We are the nomads, trailblazers ................we have deep seated WHG in our markers

----------


## torzio

a map of T-Z19945 that match me and who are tested with ftdna, yfull or myheritage


we know the canary island member and the trentino marker is myself

----------


## torzio

> a map of T-Z19945 that match me and who are tested with ftdna, yfull or myheritage
> 
> we know the canary island member and the trentino marker is myself



the Turkish marker is Aydin area

earliest history of the area states..............................

Aydin was known as Tralles in ancient times

*According to Strabo Tralles was founded by the Argives and Trallians.

The Trallians, Tralles or Tralli (Greek: Τράλλεις, Tralleis) were a Thracian tribe that served Hellenistic kings.[1] They were barbarians, employed as mercenaries, executioners and torturers in Asia.[2] Livy (59 BC–17 AD) called them Illyrians.[3] Strabo (64 BC–24 AD) in Geographica attributed the foundation of the ancient city of Tralles, in the valley of the Maeander River in Asia Minor to Trallians and Argives. This tradition has been deemed fictitious and coincidental.[1] W. M. Ramsay (1851–1939) believed that the Trallians, a warrior tribe, had crossed the Hellespont and settled Mysia, Lydia, Phrygia, Caria and Lycia,[4] in what is today western Turkey. A part of the tribe seems to have migrated to Illyria.[5]*

----------


## torzio

@salento
I presume the Lecce sample I found in genetichomeland is you , but it only appears if I use T-CTS8862 to search...............it comes with 1 other match only ...a bulgarian from Permik
The site shows two other T1a2 ancient samples ...1 x Silistra bulgaria and other from Somogy hungaria
I think the program *must run also on MyHeritage samples* ( they use ftdna programmers, but different snp and areas of ones DNA ).............I say this because I get a match from year 1600 in Grand Est France........this program shows me, a person with T-Z19945 from Waldersbach in Grand Est France
It also shows me 2 x Czech samples with T-Z19945

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> I presume the Lecce sample I found in genetichomeland is you , but it only appears if I use T-CTS8862 to search...............it comes with 1 other match only ...a bulgarian from Permik
> The site shows two other T1a2 ancient samples ...1 x Silistra bulgaria and other from Somogy hungaria
> I think the program *must run also on MyHeritage samples* ( they use ftdna programmers, but different snp and areas of ones DNA ).............I say this because I get a match from year 1600 in Grand Est France........this program shows me person with T-Z19945 from Waldersbach in Grand Est France
> It also shows me 2 x Czech samples with T-Z19945


I haven't seen it, but it is possible, though if it’s me it is outdated as we’re T-SK1480.

----------


## torzio

> I haven't seen it, but it is possible, though if it’s me it is outdated as we’re T-SK1480.



they must only check certain testing companies as I mentioned

----------


## torzio

Another T1a2

Marotte family from Belgium T1a2 - FT384286 .............year 1580

and a

Czech T1a2 - FTA53658 ..........................year 1615

both of the above are from CTS1848 branch

.................................................. ....

on my branch

Johann Adam Wolff, b.1688 ..........in Austria

Charles Sheppard Vinson Jones , 1760 ...........found in USA

John Atwell b. 1727 ...Wales

Antonio Gariti, b. 1700 Italy

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

Anyone been able to figure out cts933 yet? Also any progress on who carried T1 lines in europe or were they just slaves in the roman empire from middle east?

----------


## Salento

> Anyone been able to figure out cts933 yet? Also any progress on who carried T1 lines in europe or were they just slaves in the roman empire from middle east?


No, … and absolutely Not !!!
Y T was in Rome long before the Empire !!! and was already in Germany during the Neolithic!

Ardea (Rome):



Karsdorf (Germany):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197/

----------


## Salento

@TaktikatEMalet … one of the richest graves (the richest ever in its time period - 4545 BC) belongs to y T ANI152 - (Varna) The Golden King, … 

Just because y T isn't popular, doesn't mean it wasn't important historically, it already ruled parts of Europe at least 6000 years ago!

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ck-sea-coast-)

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> No, … and absolutely Not !!!
> Y T was in Rome long before the Empire !!! and was already in Germany during the Neolithic!
> Ardea (Rome):
> 
> Karsdorf (Germany):
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197/


Wow thats nice, ardea were basically in rome before rome existed? It makes sense why T isnt rare in italy unlike rest of europe, seems to have a hotspot in and around rome

----------


## torzio

> Wow thats nice, ardea were basically in rome before rome existed? It makes sense why T isnt rare in italy unlike rest of europe, seems to have a hotspot in and around rome


there are 3 x T ydna from neolithic central Germany .................another 2 x T in neolithic bulgaria ..............plus a new T neolithic sample found a month or so ago in czech lands 
my conclusion ...............*T ydna are early ( ancient ) pure hunters.*.........very early ydna in europe......most probably hunting the red deer in northern Germany

----------


## Salento

… Bronze-Age England Migration, 803 samples (Zero y T).
There are y T Neolithic and Iron-Age samples, but none in the Bronze Age? 
… from the Roman paper:

… “The T1a haplogroup, although absent in our samples prior to Iron Age, has previously been found in early farmers in Bulgaria (5,800-5,400 calBCE) and Germany (5,500-4,850 BCE)” …

https://www.science.org/action/downl...antonio_sm.pdf

----------


## torzio

In the T project ( modern ) ..............
after many tests , these below seem unique

there is a tested Y37 ..........who is K-M9 and is a Kurdish Iraqi ....................I wonder why they placed it in the T ydna ............could have also went with R ydna, or N, O, P, M, S, L

there is also a tested Y67 .............T-M184 from East Germany

and last
T-PH110 from Black sea Georgia ..................we now have Germany, Armenia and Bhutan and Georgia

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> … Bronze-Age England Migration, 803 samples (Zero y T).
> There are y T Neolithic and Iron-Age samples, but none in the Bronze Age? 
> … from the Roman paper:
> … “The T1a haplogroup, although absent in our samples prior to Iron Age, has previously been found in early farmers in Bulgaria (5,800-5,400 calBCE) and Germany (5,500-4,850 BCE)” …
> https://www.science.org/action/downl...antonio_sm.pdf


This means that most T1a found in england now was likely from roman settlement, though it is still rare

According to torzio T was near Rome prior to Roman empire. So it would have been assimilated and moved with the roman conquests. Does anyone know how common T1a is in spain and portugal?

----------


## torzio

> This means that most T1a found in england now was likely from roman settlement, though it is still rare
> 
> According to torzio T was near Rome prior to Roman empire. So it would have been assimilated and moved with the roman conquests. Does anyone know how common T1a is in spain and portugal?


They came via illyrian or alpine ( augustus conquered the alps circa 15BC , the last place in modern italy to become Roman colony ) subjects 


Italy has about 4% ...similar with Spain, Portugal, Germany, Austria, France and Belgium

check this site out for T ydna ..............I have not checked for more than a year...not sure if maciano updated T ydna

----------


## Salento

@Torzio …maybe you’re confusing threads, the Ardea sample is 100s of years older than Augustus, … maybe R850 went to school with Romulus' kids :)

----------


## Salento

> This means that most T1a found in england now was likely from roman settlement, though it is still rare
> According to torzio T was near Rome prior to Roman empire. So it would have been assimilated and moved with the roman conquests. Does anyone know how common T1a is in spain and portugal?


They didn't find BA T samples, but it doesn't mean they weren't there.
Surely more y T were brought to England by Rome and then by the Vikings (VK398 Sweden, Skara).

Out of 1000s of Ancient samples, only about forty plus are y T, … they’re rare and not easily found, …though we have Neolithics and Iron-Age y T samples, … I assume they were also present in the Bronze-Age.

----------


## torzio

> @Torzio …maybe you’re confusing threads, the Ardea sample is 100s of years older than Augustus, … maybe R850 went to school with Romulus' kids :)



I keep forgetting about this etruscan from the Rutuli tribe in modern Lazio region  :Big smile:

----------


## Salento

> I keep forgetting about this etruscan from the Rutuli tribe in modern Lazio region


_Ardea_: … “The area was once the main urban center of the Rutuli, a population belonging to the "*Latin lineage*" … :) 

https://www.science.org/action/downl...ntonio_sm.pdf&

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> They came via illyrian or alpine ( augustus conquered the alps circa 15BC , the last place in modern italy to become Roman colony ) subjects 
> Italy has about 4% ...similar with Spain, Portugal, Germany, Austria, France and Belgium
> check this site out for T ydna ..............I have not checked for more than a year...not sure if maciano updated T ydna


Difficult to link t1a with illyrians, the spread doesnt seem to suggest it. Like salento mentioned t1a is linked to latin people, though etruscan may be possible? T1a doesnt seem like an indo european line and most people say etruscans didnt speak a european language

----------


## torzio

> Difficult to link t1a with illyrians, the spread doesnt seem to suggest it. Like salento mentioned t1a is linked to latin people, though etruscan may be possible? T1a doesnt seem like an indo european line and most people say etruscans didnt speak a european language


not indo-european .............then all its brothers are not as well

----------


## torzio

the only ancient T samples so far in YFull

----------


## torzio

I only see 2 x T ydna in the upcoming celtic paper .....so far

T1a1-Z709

T1a1 -Y11151

----------


## torzio

> the only ancient T samples so far in YFull


I asked yfull if they would place the following ancient T

CL23

also

the 2 x Bulgarian Neolitihic samples from Malek

and

Golden man

----------


## torzio

> I only see 2 x T ydna in the upcoming celtic paper .....so far
> T1a1-Z709
> T1a1 -Y11151



I14837:Result (-33.3% 2 -1 +1): T-Y180921

I13751:Result (-33.3% 2 -1 +1): T-FGC63786

----------


## Salento

> I14837:Result (-33.3% 2 -1 +1): T-Y180921
> I13751:Result (-33.3% 2 -1 +1): T-FGC63786


… K12b Coordinates.
… I am not convinced that they are y T
… I didn't get the y results I expected. :) 



```
I13751_Dodecad_K12b,12.50,0.00,0.99,0.05,36.65,41.95,0.70,0.13,0.00,0.00,5.73,1.29
I14837_Dodecad_K12b,9.90,0.16,0.76,0.00,39.50,44.35,0.00,0.04,0.27,0.00,4.55,0.48
```

----------


## torzio

> … K12b Coordinates.
> … I am not convinced that they are y T
> … I didn't get the y results I expected. :) 
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> I13751_Dodecad_K12b,12.50,0.00,0.99,0.05,36.65,41.95,0.70,0.13,0.00,0.00,5.73,1.29
> I14837_Dodecad_K12b,9.90,0.16,0.76,0.00,39.50,44.35,0.00,0.04,0.27,0.00,4.55,0.48
> ```



Thats whats the paper states .................what makes you think it is not?

top one comes from Hittite old capital area of konya Turkey in origin

second one...is northern Armenian in origin

----------


## torzio

Distance to:	Torziok12b
22.29031853	I13751_Dodecad_K12b
24.37320455	I14837_Dodecad_K12b

----------


## torzio

questions from the T project team
I started to order tests for kit 327232 belonging to the Kruger lineage.
The origin of this Kruger lineage is known to be "Germany", but still is not confirmed which German region. Two possible places are west Germany and Danzig. A third possibility is Bessarabian Germans.

The line is an ancient line

----------


## Salento

> Thats whats the paper states .................what makes you think it is not?
> top one comes from Hittite old capital area of konya Turkey in origin
> second one...is northern Armenian in origin


You saw the paper and I didn’t, … I won’t challenge it, I’ll go with the flow, but I’m skeptical of it !

----------


## torzio

> You saw the paper and I didn’t, … I won’t challenge it, I’ll go with the flow, but I’m skeptical of it !


I doubt these T1a1 as well .............though the Hittites did come from modern armenia/georgia area before entering Anatolia/Asia Minor


BTW....there is chit chat that our T1a2 in on the north side of the black sea in origin ( proto-scyhians )................I will get more information

----------


## Salento

one-to-one - S vs CL23 and SZ36 

… at 60 SNPs (as for MTA) minimum segments threshold size, … input cM as needed as to get lowest results:

----------


## Salento

1-to-1 … 60 SNPs, cM as needed.

S vs Latin R850 - Romans R120 and R1543

----------


## Salento

One-to-One … 60 SNPs, cM as needed 

… S vs VK17 and VK398:

----------


## torzio

> one-to-one - S vs CL23 and SZ36 
> 
> … at 60 SNPs (as for MTA) minimum segments threshold size, … input cM as needed as to get lowest results:



what are we doing here ?

----------


## Salento

> what are we doing here ?


I’m using MTA Deep Dive settings (60 SNPs) on GedMatch One-to-One, and trying to get a “_minimum”_ result:

… on GedMatch “One-to-One Autosomal DNA Comparison”, input the Ancient Kit ID and Yours,

… Write *60* where it says: “_SNP window size threshold. Leave blank for default to vary dynamically between 200-400”,

…_ run it! … if no results go back and Write *6* where it says: _“Minimum segment cM size to be included in total: (Must be at least 3 cm. Leave blank for default value = 7)”,

…_ run it again, … if no results go back and change it to *5*, … if no results go back and lower to *4* or *3* and run it,

… if still no results go back, and add a *3* where it says: “_Size (in SNPs) of Mismatch-Bunching limit. (Leave blank for default mismatch eval window / 2)”_ and run it again.

… good luck :) lol

… for example: me vs R1 … see the settings in the red squares that I had to use to get results with the 60 SNPs threshold.

----------


## torzio

> I’m using MTA Deep Dive settings (60 SNPs) on GedMatch One-to-One, and trying to get a “_minimum”_ result:
> 
> … on GedMatch “One-to-One Autosomal DNA Comparison”, input the Ancient Kit ID and Yours,
> 
> … Write *60* where it says: “_SNP window size threshold. Leave blank for default to vary dynamically between 200-400”,
> 
> …_ run it! … if no results go back and Write *6* where it says: _“Minimum segment cM size to be included in total: (Must be at least 3 cm. Leave blank for default value = 7)”,
> 
> …_ run it again, … if no results go back and change it to *5*, … if no results go back and lower to *4* or *3* and run it,
> ...


for myself .v. R1
all chr used except 3, 6, 9 and 12

*Largest segment = 6.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 123.3cM (3.437 Pct)

33 shared segments found for this comparison.

648286 SNPs used for this comparison.

54.59 Pct SNPs are full identical*

----------


## torzio

on min segment size of 5 ....i only get
Chr B37 Start Pos'n	B37 End Pos'n	Centimorgans (cM)	SNPs
19	.......7,663,317	....... 9,939,831	.....6.5	.....560

----------


## torzio

@salento

you are closer than I for R1 ..........is this the same for MTA ?

I stated a while ago......looks like we came via dalmatia/liburnia area .........to Marche .....your line went south ( Picene and Daunian) and my line went north

something like SNP tracker

----------


## Salento

> @salento
> you are closer than I for R1 ..........is this the same for MTA ?
> I stated a while ago......looks like we came via dalmatia/liburnia area .........to Marche .....your line went south ( Picene and Daunian) and my line went north
> something like SNP tracker


… not on MTA anymore, you’re way closer to R1 than me, … 

…though I do get the “Modern” MyHeritage Chieti (Abruzzo) Genetic Group (Martinsicuro is in Abruzzo)

----------


## Salento

… my Lecce Genetic Group has Marche (and Rome) in 1600 - 1650 … this genetic group is hundreds of years old, … maybe it’s a clue indicating a common genetic link of Piceni and Iapigi (Daunians - Peuceti - Messapi)
I Think :)

----------


## torzio

> … my Lecce Genetic Group has Marche (and Rome) in 1600 - 1650 … this genetic group is hundreds of years old, … maybe it’s a clue indicating a common genetic link of Piceni and Iapigi (Daunians - Peuceti - Messapi)
> I Think :)


this is my new #1 , replacing sample R1 .................but R1 has double the SNP's

----------


## Salento

_​one-to-one_ R120 (Late Antiquity Roman) vs R850 (Ardea Latin) and 1543 (Imperial Roman)

----------


## torzio

It seems many are confused with which T it belongs to which branch
Currently 
T1a1
T1a2 
T1a3
T-PH110
are the branches
.................................
But some scientific testers use
T1a1a for T1a1
T1a1b for T1a2
T1a2a for T1a3


in the distant past 2011 to 2014 it was as the map below states
T2 = T1a1 branch

T3 = T1a2 branch

----------


## Salento

Distance to:
DER031

8.70873699
Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany

10.63597198
Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany

12.86849253
ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic

15.31279530
kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany


_
Dodecad K12b:
_


```
DER031,0,0,0.95,0,54.58,0,0,0,10.37,0,33.76,0.35
ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32.93,0
R850_Ardea_Latin,7.3,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.1,0
R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome,5.11,0.47,2.1,0,33.79,17.98,0,1.11,11.27,0,27.96,0.21
R1543_Imperial_Rome,8.92,0,5.86,0,21.15,9.11,0.41,0.36,14.95,0,38.92,0.31
CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom,6,1.15,3.48,0,36.14,24.04,0.16,0.59,7.04,0,21.33,0.07
SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary,5.31,0,2.69,0,32.16,22.1,0.15,0,9.96,0,27.22,0.41
I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern,4.91,0,1.54,0.70,25.57,17.55,0.36,0.48,11.88,0,37,0
I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD,6.34,0.29,11.67,0,35.87,20.88,0,3.68,15.38,0.36,5.46,0.06
Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0,3.81,0.14,50.90,0,0,0.68,15.71,0,28.76,0
Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0,2.60,0,45.47,0,0,0,14.99,0,36.19,0.75
kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany,0,0.45,3.45,0,59.31,0,0,0.53,15.77,0,20.49,0
VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga,2.47,2.89,0.05,0.68,28.23,60.27,0,0,0.06,0,3.77,1.58
VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara,8.38,2.47,0.53,0,35.05,41.08,0,0,0.48,0,9.88,2.14
I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic,0,0,2.21,0.37,42.93,36.24,0,0,7.78,0.22,9.65,0.61
I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic,0,0,2.08,1.14,49.17,30.37,0,0,6.38,0,10.05,0.81
KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia,0,0,3.81,0,53.94,16.35,0,0,8.50,0,17.40,0
KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia,0,0,0,0,57.20,17.89,0,2.49,6.68,0,15.74,0
```

----------


## torzio

Distance to:	Torziok12b
4.82277928	CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom
10.29711610	SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary
13.60258064	R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome
17.30128608	I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
18.43716627	VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
18.84040870	I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
22.17713011	I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD
22.56245332	I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern
23.18973911	KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
25.41673858	KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
31.09767515	R850_Ardea_Latin
31.47556195	ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic
31.51982392	R1543_Imperial_Rome
34.91681543	Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
35.19496271	Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
36.99720665	DER031
38.27756523	VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
38.50644881	kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany



Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 1.8050% / 1.80501612
50.6	SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary
37.6	VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
6.3	DER031
2.9	CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom
2.6	KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia

----------


## torzio

Interesting.......my 1st cousin, once removed from Trentino

Target: TrentinoCles
Distance: 1.8336% / 1.83361321
34.4	DER031
32.2	VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
32.0	I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern
1.4	VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara



Distance to:	TrentinoCles
6.50109222	CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom
7.97467241	SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary
10.61070214	R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome
19.11735599	I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern
20.18327278	I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
20.54872259	I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
21.75104135	KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
23.55030998	VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
24.31628261	KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
25.64338316	I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD
27.11581826	ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic
28.26651730	R850_Ardea_Latin
29.12351799	R1543_Imperial_Rome
30.80966082	Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
31.43546723	Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
32.88626917	DER031
36.19962431	kar16a_I0797_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
42.12987301	VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga

----------


## torzio

@Salento

Matt Verona ( Vironet line )

Shared info on his close matches which I do not have................maybe you have them

*Jason LaBenne ( from the Bear man you linked a while ago ) ...............Hubert LaBenne b.1629 Tilleur , Belgium

John Zeno ...................Domenico Ziino , Messina Italy

Kenneth Wike ...............Germany*

----------


## torzio

All above are T1a2 ydna branch

----------


## Salento

T-SK1480 and Parent still overlap, … same place for 2000 years, … They loved Italy and the Roman Empire :)

----------


## torzio

> T-SK1480 and Parent still overlap, … same place for 2000 years, … They loved Italy and the Roman Empire :)


2000 years?
Are you saying the roman invasions of the Alps anywhere from 15BC to 35AD is where our ancestors came from , captured and enslaved in Rome?

----------


## Salento

> 2000 years?
> Are you saying the roman invasions of the Alps anywhere from 15BC to 35AD is where our ancestors came from , captured and enslaved in Rome?


I only said what the map shows! 
… surely, in 15BC our ancestors were allies of the Romans, and rewarded with a beautiful Villa in Tuscany, … better climate than the Alps  :Grin:

----------


## torzio

> I only said what the map shows! 
> … surely, in 15BC our ancestors were allies of the Romans, and rewarded with a beautiful Villa in Tuscany, … better climate than the Alps



looking at the map you presented ..............we fit in a map in the link somwhere

https://second.wiki/wiki/augusteische_alpenfeldzc3bcge

----------


## Salento

Deleted … …

----------


## Salento

yfull dates BY143483 to 2998 ybp, that’s 1048 BC … some members may have been in Italy since then, and eventually mutating into SK1480.



… _from snptracker:_

----------


## torzio

> yfull dates BY143483 to 2998 ybp, that’s 1048 BC … some members may have been in Italy since then, and eventually mutating into SK1480.
> 
> 
> 
> … _from snptracker:_



is the ybp still the year 1950 ?

or you stating this year?

----------


## Salento

> is the ybp still the year 1950 ?
> or you stating this year?


yes, bp is the year 1950, usually.

1950 - 2998 = -1048 or 1048 BC

----------


## Salento

ybp relates to radiocarbon dating, … the resulting dates are an approximation, … there’s not need to tweak them.

I see sites adding / subtracting 50 years to the ybp converted results, … waist of time.

----------


## Salento

_August 2022 - The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the Early English Gene pool
_*
I3011* - _UK, Lincolnshire, Lincoln, Lincoln Castle_
_y_ T1a1a1b2b2b1a
_mt_ H1a3



```
I3011_Early-Medieval_UK_Lincoln-Castle_Dod_K12b,8.36,1.05,0,0,43.18,29.04,1.46,0.12,4.78,0,11.06,0.97
```





... "_The history of the British Isles and Ireland is characterized by multiple periods of major cultural change, including the influential transformation after the end of Roman rule, which precipitated shifts in language, settlement patterns and material culture. The extent to which migration from continental Europe mediated these transitions is a matter of long-standing debate. Here we study genome-wide ancient DNA from 460 medieval northwestern Europeans – including 278 individuals from England – alongside archaeological data, to infer contemporary population dynamics. We identify a substantial increase of continental northern European ancestry in early medieval England, which is closely related to the early medieval and present-day inhabitants of Germany and Denmark, implying large-scale substantial migration across the North Sea into Britain during the Early Middle Ages. As a result, the individuals we analysed from eastern England derived up to 76% of their ancestry from the continental North Sea zone, albeit with substantial regional variation and heterogeneity within sites. We show that women with immigrant ancestry were more often furnished with grave goods than women with local ancestry, whereas men with weapons were as likely as not to be of immigrant ancestry. A comparison with present-day Britain indicates that subsequent demographic events reduced the fraction of continental northern European ancestry, while introducing further ancestry components into the English gene pool, including substantial southwestern European ancestry most closely related to that seen in Iron Age France_." ...

ENA Browser (ebi.ac.uk)

----------


## torzio

far from me ...............I know its the other T branch

Distance to:	Torziok12b
12.74404175	I3011_Early-Medieval_UK_Lincoln-Castle_Dod_K12b

----------


## Salento

dod K12b


```
ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a,5.50,0.00,3.83,0.00,27.98,21.55,0.57,0.05,8.73,0.00,31.43,0.36
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6,24.77,0.00,0.00,0.01,6.82,17.69,1.57,0.00,7.02,0.00,41.83,0.28
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b,0.06,0.00,3.38,0.00,34.64,9.52,0.00,0.00,13.96,0.00,38.41,0.03
GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833_y-T1a2b1a_mt-H,10.29,0.00,1.72,1.05,19.47,7.73,0.00,0.21,17.41,0.01,41.68,0.42
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20143_y-T1a2_mt-J1b3b1,12.52,0.66,2.52,0.00,22.00,3.34,0.00,0.00,15.70,0.00,42.39,0.88
TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I4530_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-U3a2a1,8.14,0.00,1.51,0.00,23.12,6.78,0.00,0.00,15.66,0.48,43.92,0.38
TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I14799_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-I1,8.08,0.00,0.00,0.00,24.57,5.51,0.00,0.00,16.85,0.78,44.05,0.16
TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A:I14797_y-T1a1a_mt-N2a,9.86,0.39,3.08,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,0.56,21.37,0.92,50.55,0.00
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788_y-T1a1a1_mt-K1a15,11.56,0.00,1.79,0.00,11.74,1.59,0.00,0.78,25.53,0.07,46.80,0.14
TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA:I4615_y-T1a2_mt-N1,12.32,0.00,2.21,2.29,11.88,0.00,0.97,0.07,20.42,0.00,49.26,0.57
```

----------


## torzio

all very far from myself

Distance to:	Torziok12b
15.05875825	ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a
27.57585538	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b
35.07276294	TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I4530_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-U3a2a1
35.28608649	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833_y-T1a2b1a_mt-H
35.82466469	TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I14799_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-I1
37.16133071	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20143_y-T1a2_mt-J1b3b1
41.24376438	ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6
48.36993488	TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788_y-T1a1a1_mt-K1a15
48.93004087	TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA:I4615_y-T1a2_mt-N1
49.08648185	TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A:I14797_y-T1a1a_mt-N2a

----------


## Salento

Distance to:
S_Dod_K12b

6.71502792
ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a

13.05905816
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b

15.27089716
TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I4530_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-U3a2a1

15.69188644
GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833_y-T1a2b1a_mt-H

16.35741422
TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I14799_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-I1

18.29612801
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20143_y-T1a2_mt-J1b3b1

29.02033770
TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA:I14788_y-T1a1a1_mt-K1a15

29.16227872
TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A:I14797_y-T1a1a_mt-N2a

29.29489205
ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6

29.31824176
TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA:I4615_y-T1a2_mt-N1

----------


## torzio

> Distance to:
> S_Dod_K12b
> 
> 6.71502792
> ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a
> 
> 13.05905816
> GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b
> 
> ...


what is this all about ?

----------


## Salento

> what is this all about ?


y Ts Southern Arc samples ... S aka Salento, ... me.

----------


## torzio

> y Ts Southern Arc samples ... S aka Salento, ... me.



ok

who did test with ............just ftdna?

----------


## Salento

> ok
> who did test with ............just ftdna?


… Those 10 Y T samples are from Lazaridis et al. Science 2022 !

I tested Y and mtDNA of some of those samples too:






https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ronzeAge_1.pdf

----------


## Huracan

ID
Date mean in BP
Date standard deviation in BP
Full Date (95.4% CI)
Analysis_Label
Locality
Country
Lat.
Long.
Y-DNA
mtDNA

I20143
975
188
650-1300 CE
TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz
Stratonikeia-West Church (Aegean, Muğla, Yatağan)
Turkey
37.3
28.03
T-L131
J1b3b1

I4615
4991
73
3263-2925 calBCE (4415±20 BP, PSUAMS-3063)
TUR_SE_Şırnak_BA
Tatika (Southeast, Şırnak, Güçlükonak, Koçtepe köyü)
Turkey
37.5432
41.8662
T-L131
N1

I14622
1121
36
773-885 calCE (1205±20 BP, PSUAMS-7198)
ALB_Mdv
Kënetë (Norteastern, Kukes District)
Albania
42.036944
20.397222
T-FGC47678
H11a

I17962
2594
67
773-544 calBCE (2500±20 BP, PSUAMS-7825)
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc
Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)
Greece
38.399083
22.575
T-S27463
U8b1b

I7833
1610
47
252-412 calCE (1715±25 BP, PSUAMS-3469)
GRC_Marathon_Rom
Vranas Marathon
Greece
38.122207
23.946392
T-CTS3767
H

I14799
1575
14
350-400 CE
TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A
Basilica (Marmara, Iznik)
Turkey
40.42
29.71
T-CTS9984
I1

I4530
1648
34
241-362 calCE (1755±20 BP, PSUAMS-4141)
TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A
Cedit, Basarabya (Black Sea, Samsun, llkadım)
Turkey
41.313
36.33
T-CTS8489
U3a2a1

----------


## Salento

… is I17962 (773-544 calBCE) Mycenaean or Ancient Greek? … Maybe at the edge of both?
He’s very close to the Mycenaeans.

----------


## torzio

23mofang (a company based in Chengdu, Sichuan,) has two members of T-PH110/T-PH196: a Mr. Hu 胡 from Changchun, Jilin and a Mr. Ma 馬 from Linxia Hui Autonomous Prefecture, Gansu. 

23mofang currently estimates the TMRCA of T-PH110/T-PH196 to be a whopping 28,210 ybp (compared to an estimated TMRCA of 31,840 ybp for the entire haplogroup T-M184 and an estimated TMRCA of 19,260 ybp for T-L206).

T-M184 split into T1a1, T1a2, T1a3 ..........13500ybp , south of Baku on the Caspian Sea

----------


## Salento

SB696 ... antisemitic violence victim - 6th Feb 1190 AD - Norwich UK - y T1a1a - mt U6a1b1b 



```
SB696_Dod_K12b_Norwich-UK_1190-AD_y-T1a1a_mt-U6a1b1b,4.20,0.00,7.03,0.00,28.76,6.10,2.68,1.08,16.33,0.54,32.77,0.51
```

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...223?show=reads

https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(22)01355-0

----------


## Jovialis

> … is I17962 (773-544 calBCE) Mycenaean or Ancient Greek? … Maybe at the edge of both?
> He’s very close to the Mycenaeans.


According to the new study, the Mycenaean-like genetic profile (minority Yamnaya-Minoan substratum) was pervasive in the region including some samples in Bulgaria. Perhaps also in south Italy according to my analysis. Which means it could be an ancestry that spans multiple cultures. Sort of like how modern South Italians and Greeks share genetic similarities but have significant differences in culture (language, religion)

----------


## Angela

> … is I17962 (773-544 calBCE) Mycenaean or Ancient Greek? … Maybe at the edge of both?
> He’s very close to the Mycenaeans.


Is his best match, the Olalde sample, the Greek from the trading post in Northeast Spain?

----------


## torzio

> y Ts Southern Arc samples ... S aka Salento, ... me.



we are 9 points apart in our admixture results...................do you remember our STR differences ?.......was it 6 or more ?

----------


## Salento

@Jovialis ... Thanks :) 
@Torzio ... I don't know. 
@Angela ... _I8215_ : 746-415 calBCE - mtDNA HV11 - Girona, Empuries, necropolis Centre de Visitants, Spain.

----------


## Salento

... with Dodecad Globe 13 _I17962 is closer to the_ _Myceneans, ... Olalde_ _I8215_ _is 4th ._

Distance to:
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962

1.66784292
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514

2.51071703
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20184

3.07468698
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13506_d

3.09870941
I8215:I8215

3.77253231
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20180

3.84854518
BGR_RomByz:I18792

4.52581484
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579

4.65062361
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516

4.65791799
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518

4.82399212
ASH068:ASH068

4.95284767
I12220:I12220

5.01447904
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA:I20186

5.38526694
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

5.44192980
Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_ :I9010

5.49989091
BGR_Diamandievo_IA:I19481

5.60134805
I10366:I10366

5.65023008
Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese_ :I9041

5.65164578
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578

5.72441263
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571

5.73365503
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709

5.92776518
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428

6.26365708
I8208:I8208

6.31040411
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532

6.82116559
_Bulgaria_IA_:I5769

7.03256710
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577

----------


## Jovialis

Wow! that is extraordinary!

Would you be able to re-process the modern academic samples in G13 format? I know it is asking for much, but it would be very much appreciated.

----------


## Salento

> Wow! that is extraordinary!
> 
> Would you be able to re-process the modern academic samples in G13 format? I know it is asking for much, but it would be very much appreciated.


Yes, … It will be a new project :)

----------


## torzio

> we are 9 points apart in our admixture results...................do you remember our STR differences ?.......was it 6 or more ?



we have a difference of 18 in Y111 ....................about 15%

so we knew each other early iron-age

----------


## Salento

> we have a difference of 18 in Y111 ....................about 15%
> so we knew each other early iron-age


You have a memory of steel, … I don't remember much about my time in the Iron-Age., … I should have kept a diary. lol

----------


## torzio

> You have a memory of steel, … I don't remember much about my time in the Iron-Age., … I should have kept a diary. lol


aah memories, ...........hunting Boars and Stags

----------


## Salento

... not yet available to the public, hopefully the data is OK.
... two y T-S27463* / T1a2b:_ The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army_



```
I7218_Himera_480_BCE_Battle_Med,1.53,0.56,1.25,0,38.25,9.27,0,0.74,13.01,0.56,33.99,0.85
I7224_Himera_409_BCE_Battle_Med,0.86,0,2.28,0.62,37.93,12.11,1.09,0,9.92,0,33.83,1.36
```

----------


## Salento

Latest … Età del Bronzo - Toscana / Bronze-Age - Central Italy … obviously  :Grin: 




http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

----------


## Salento

... two modern:

PG731 - _Montepulciano SI Southern Tuscany_ - *T* (Reitsema_2022)
Pu8 - _Apulia_ - *T1a / T-M70* (Raveane_Aneli_Montinaro_2019)

----------


## torzio

> Latest … Età del Bronzo - Toscana / Bronze-Age - Central Italy … obviously 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html



I noticed on this tracker , over time, the final position colour has become older and older in classification

----------


## torzio

> ... not yet available to the public, hopefully the data is OK.
> ... two y T-S27463* / T1a2b:_ The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army_
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> I7218_Himera_480_BCE_Battle_Med,1.53,0.56,1.25,0,38.25,9.27,0,0.74,13.01,0.56,33.99,0.85
> I7224_Himera_409_BCE_Battle_Med,0.86,0,2.28,0.62,37.93,12.11,1.09,0,9.92,0,33.83,1.36
> ```



in the paper, one is Western Steppe other is Southern Siberia ................even though they are the same branch ..............is this not strange ?

----------


## Salento

> in the paper, one is Western Steppe other is Southern Siberia ................even though they are the same branch ..............is this not strange ?


Both samples show an asterisk *** at the end of the y Haplogroup, … It could mean that it’s not a final prediction, but an approximation, I guess.

W2737
I7218
480 BCE battle
y T-S27463*
T1a2b
mt H5+709
780-400 BCE
Sicily, Himera


W4651
I7224
409 BCE battle
y T-S27463*
T1a2b
mt U1a1a
770-540 calBCE
Sicily, Himera

----------


## torzio

> Both samples show an asterisk *** at the end of the y Haplogroup, … It could mean that it’s not a final prediction, but an approximation, I guess.
> 
> W2737
> I7218
> 480 BCE battle
> y T-S27463*
> T1a2b
> mt H5+709
> 780-400 BCE
> ...



do you mean that the 2 samples came via either place and they are not sure

I know there was T in southern Siberia from other papers ...............these look more like they are both from western steppe

----------


## Huracan

Both samples were listed as T-S27463 (xT-Y174326) in supplemental file 6 (see attached). Their locations and dating are confirmed, the asterisk meant terminal SNP designation.

pnas.2205272119.sd06.xlsx

----------


## torzio

post 535 + 551

results below

Distance to:	Torziok12b
4.82277928	CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom
10.29711610	SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary
13.60258064	R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome
15.05875825	ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a
17.30128608	I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
18.43716627	VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
18.84040870	I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
21.86613820	I7224_Himera_409_BCE_Battle_Med
22.17713011	I4055_SE_Iberia_300AD
22.56245332	I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern
23.18973911	KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
24.61253542	I7218_Himera_480_BCE_Battle_Med
25.41673858	KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
27.57585538	GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b
31.09767515	R850_Ardea_Latin
31.47556195	ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic
31.51982392	R1543_Imperial_Rome
34.91681543	Kars537_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
35.07276294	TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I4530_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-U3a2a1
35.19496271	Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany
35.28608649	GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833_y-T1a2b1a_mt-H
35.82466469	TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I14799_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-I1
36.99720665	DER031
37.16133071	TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20143_y-T1a2_mt-J1b3b1
38.27756523	VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga


Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 1.0378% / 1.03782676
24.8	ARM_Karashamb_LBA
22.3	KOB003_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
18.6	VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
13.0	I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
10.3	KOB007_Kolin-Staralka_Funnelbeaker_Bohemia
4.1	DER031
3.9	I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
3.0	ALB_Mdv


Distance to:	Torziok12b
2.24904578	31.20% ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6 + 68.80% I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
2.51586974	57.80% R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome + 42.20% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
2.90597506	82.60% CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom + 17.40% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
2.94489342	91.00% CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom + 9.00% VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
2.99713097	39.80% GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962_y-T1a2b1_mt-U8b1b + 60.20% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
3.09967820	57.40% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara + 42.60% I7218_Himera_480_BCE_Battle_Med
3.14825654	65.00% SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary + 35.00% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
3.38549892	54.40% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara + 45.60% I7224_Himera_409_BCE_Battle_Med
4.13632204	87.20% CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom + 12.80% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
4.62001622	33.80% Kar6_I0795_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany + 66.20% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
4.66711964	93.80% CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom + 6.20% I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
4.82119522	0.40% ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6 + 99.60% CL23_Collegno_Italy_Longobard_Kingdom
4.89606474	64.60% SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary + 35.40% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
4.96557340	53.80% ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a + 46.20% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
5.02448704	28.80% ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345_y-T1a1a1b2b_mt-J1d6 + 71.20% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
5.17637059	75.00% R120_Late_Antiquity_Rome + 25.00% VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
5.23408596	33.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_A:I14799_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-I1 + 66.80% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
5.54162863	56.20% ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a + 43.80% I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
5.65336252	55.80% ALB_Mdv:I14622_y-T1a2b1_mt-H11a + 44.20% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
5.70409037	33.60% TUR_BlackSea_Samsun_Anc_A:I4530_y-T1a2b1a1_mt-U3a2a1 + 66.40% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
5.74454003	30.80% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Stratonikeia_Byz:I20143_y-T1a2_mt-J1b3b1 + 69.20% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
5.82851171	81.60% SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary + 18.40% VK17_Viking_Russia_Ladoga
5.86236854	67.80% SZ36_Longobard_Migration_Hungary + 32.20% I1108_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic
5.95858740	36.00% ANI152_Varna_Golden_King_Eneolithic + 64.00% VK398_Viking_Sweden_Skara
6.02724356	42.80% I3403_Skeleton_Lake_Traveler_Modern + 57.20% I0700_Malak_Preslavets_Balkans_MP_Neolithic

----------


## Salento

23andme gives me only two y T distant relatives:

T-M70 - N. Frassanito - … there’s is a seaside small village near Otranto (Salento) called Frassanito.

T-CTS8512 - C. Vecchio - San Marzano di San Giuseppe, Apulia, Italy

----------


## Salento

… my only two 23andme y T DNA Relatives are T1a and T1a1, though I’m T1a2 ! … weird.

----------


## torzio

> … my only two 23andme y T DNA Relatives are T1a and T1a1, though I’m T1a2 ! … weird.



I have zero...unless I am looking in the wrong place

----------


## Salento

> I have zero...unless I am looking in the wrong place


… go to the 23andme site, go to DNA Relatives and click the filter, click the Haplogroups and then type: T- 

… see the image on my previous post.
good luck :)

----------


## torzio

> … go to the 23andme site, go to DNA Relatives and click the filter, click the Haplogroups and then type: T- 
> 
> … see the image on my previous post.
> good luck :)



I have v3 version 

I do not have haplogroups in the filter...have

notifications
profiles
mother/father side
ancestor birthplaces
connections
family names


that is it


one of my sons V4 version is the same

----------


## Salento

I have the v5, … you’re lucky, your v3 raw-data is better than my v5 on GedMatch style calculators.

----------


## torzio

> I have the v5, … you’re lucky, your v3 raw-data is better than my v5 on GedMatch style calculators.


Gedmatch
using 20cm size
Bolzan from Fonte-Alto Veneto
Louis Lello ( USA ) ancestor from Veneto Alps............2nd cousin twice removed - 5th cousin?
Giaochino D'Acqua from Valle de Agordo - Provincia de Belluno - Itália
Nascimben from Veneto

----------


## torzio

> Gedmatch
> using 20cm size
> Bolzan from Fonte-Alto Veneto
> Louis Lello ( USA ) ancestor from Veneto Alps............2nd cousin twice removed - 5th cousin?
> Giaochino D'Acqua from Valle de Agordo - Provincia de Belluno - Itália
> Nascimben from Veneto



Bolzan and Lello are maternal side

Lello is from Tresche Ronca Veneto........................Treschè Conca is a village in Vicenza and has about 506 residents 


......................
others are Paternal

Nascimben from Silea Veneto ( name Silea changed to Melma , once Veneto went under Italy )


forgot one

Vendrasco ( paternal side ) from Ceneda in Veneto..................Ceneda now called Vittorio Veneto

----------


## torzio

Silea

*Silea, a suburb that takes
its hydrotoponym from the river Sile, the reason why Treviso and these villages
were located there. It was first mentioned by Pliny the Elder in his Naturalis
Historia (as Silis)*

maybe Italy did not like Pliny. LOL


Vernacular place names in Venetian cartography
(17th-18th centuries): a case study
Arianna Lorenzon✳

----------


## Salento

> Silea
> *Silea, a suburb that takes
> its hydrotoponym from the river Sile, the reason why Treviso and these villages
> were located there. It was first mentioned by Pliny the Elder in his Naturalis
> Historia (as Silis)*
> maybe Italy did not like Pliny. LOL
> Vernacular place names in Venetian cartography
> (17th-18th centuries): a case study
> Arianna Lorenzon✳


Pliny the Elder was the commander of the Roman Navy rescue ships during the 79 AD Vesuvius eruption, he died in that event trying to save the people and his friends , … he sacrificed his life for them.
… we like him :)

----------


## torzio

@Salento

an ancestor of Thomas Jefferson Davis (1862 - 1926) has DNA .......result T-CTS3767 ( T1a2 branch )

his father ...Andrew Jackson Davis Sr. (1830 - 1910) and wife was Louisa Owen

his father ...Robert A Davis (1801 - 1852) and wife Augusta Ann Shumate

Isaac Davis II (1754 - 1835) and wife Elizabeth Kirtley
he was Born 9 Jun 1754 in Albemarle County, Colony and Dominion of Virginia


Isaac Oliver Davis (1710 - 1805) and wife Sarah Elizabeth Winston

to finally....... Daniel Samuel Davis
Born 1677 in Saint Andrews, Fife, Scotland

----------


## Salento

> @Salento
> an ancestor of Thomas Jefferson Davis (1862 - 1926) has DNA .......result T-CTS3767 ( T1a2 branch )
> his father ...Andrew Jackson Davis Sr. (1830 - 1910) and wife was Louisa Owen
> his father ...Robert A Davis (1801 - 1852) and wife Augusta Ann Shumate
> Isaac Davis II (1754 - 1835) and wife Elizabeth Kirtley
> he was Born 9 Jun 1754 in Albemarle County, Colony and Dominion of Virginia
> Isaac Oliver Davis (1710 - 1805) and wife Sarah Elizabeth Winston
> to finally....... Daniel Samuel Davis
> Born 1677 in Saint Andrews, Fife, Scotland


Cool, … … …

----------


## torzio

> Cool, … then it means that Thomas Jefferson could be T1a2 too, y T isn’t popular, He’s one of us


where do you get this from ?

as far as i know he is T1a1

The one I presented was born during the civil war

----------


## Salento

> where do you get this from ?
> as far as i know he is T1a1
> The one I presented was born during the civil war


I read it wrong, … I was at a red light, lol
… traffic light.

----------


## torzio

> I read it wrong, … I was at a red light, lol
> … traffic light.


oh

no excuse.................unless it was a Red Light district ......hehe

----------


## Salento

> oh
> no excuse.................unless it was a Red Light district ......hehe


Polar Bears outnumber our y T finals by a lot, … whatever it takes, … lol

----------


## torzio

> Polar Bears outnumber our y T finals by a lot, … whatever it takes, … lol



the person tested on 23andme



check the haplogroups for T-CTS3767 as your have V5 version 

will send person name privately

----------


## torzio

Another T1a2 test result

T1a2-Y6033

Felipe Araújo
Massapê, Ceara, Brazil

----------


## Salento

> Another T1a2 test result
> T1a2-Y6033
> Felipe Araújo
> Massapê, Ceara, Brazil


Messapê ? …Apulian connection? Or Maybe it means something different in Brazilian / Portuguese.

----------


## torzio

> Messapê ? …Apulian connection? Or Maybe it means something different in Brazilian / Portuguese.



surname seems fabricated

Portuguese and Galician: habitational name from any of various places called Araújo in Portugal

----------


## Salento

… my T-M70 23andme DNA-Relative (Post # 581) is under Trentino South-Tyrol.

… the filter:


… maybe there's something more about his story, Frassanito (his surname) is a place near Otranto.

----------


## torzio

> … my T-M70 23andme DNA-Relative (Post # 581) is under Trentino South-Tyrol.
> 
> … the filter:
> 
> 
> … maybe there's something more about his story, Frassanito (his surname) is a place near Otranto.



both are in apulia ..............frassanito beach is near otranto

Frassanito Beach - Puglia

Otranto is a coastal town in southern Italy’s Apulia region


must be a cousin of yours


whats with Trentino south =Tyrol..........is it Giovanni Erspamer ? 
or
Fave', from Canazei, Trentino ?

----------


## Salento

> both are in apulia ..............frassanito beach is near otranto
> 
> Frassanito Beach - Puglia
> 
> Otranto is a coastal town in southern Italy’s Apulia region
> 
> 
> must be a cousin of yours
> 
> ...


He’s in a group under the South-Tyrol (3rd cousin) … I only speculated about his name and Otranto.

----------


## Salento

> … my T-M70 23andme DNA-Relative (Post # 581) is under Trentino South-Tyrol.
> 
> … the filter:
> 
> 
> … maybe there's something more about his story, Frassanito (his surname) is a place near Otranto.


My 2nd and last 23andme y T DNA-Relative is from Puglia (C. Vecchio).

----------


## Salento

I only got two y T DNA-Relatives on 23andme, … regardless of their line and provenance, it's better than none … Don't steal my Thunder :)

----------

