# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

## Alex D.

Maciamo
In the Serb and Croat genes thread below this one you told me that bosnians are actually much closer to croats than they are to Serbs and that there is no difference between the three ethnic groups in bosnia I would like to state otherwise according to some things. First your haplogroups for Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia 

Bosnia
2.5
*50*
0.5
13.5
4
2
6
1
14.5
2.5
0
0 

Croatia
8
42
1
29
8
1
3.5
0
6
1.5
0
0 

Serbia
2
29
4
15
7
1
10
1
24
*7*
0
0 

Now if we add up the lowest haplgorup percentage for each country i assume we get % similarity or who similar or not they are.

Croats to bosnians similarity 74.5%

Serbs to Bosnians similarity 74%

Dont understand how bosnians are much more similar to croats as you had stated before. Difference in similarity between Serbs and bosnians and bosnians and croats is only 0.5% i dont consider that much. 

Now the second thing in regards to all three ethnicites being the same. your source says otherwise.as you see considerable difference between I and E values amoung bosnia's three ethnic groups. bosnian Serbs are significantly closer to Serbs than the bosnian average is so to speak. Bosnians Serbs are closer to Serbs than they are to either bosniaks or bosnian croats.

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## Maciamo

That's not how you should count. Try grouping the haplogroups by origin.

Paleolithic European haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) :

Croatia = 51%
Bosnia = 53%
Serbia = 35%

Near-Eastern haplogroups (E, J, T) :

Croatia = 11%
Bosnia = 24%
Serbia = 42%

Indo-European/Caucasian haplogroups (G2a, R1a, R1b)

Croatia = 38%
Bosnia = 19.5%
Serbia = 23%


The dominant category is Paleolithic for both Croatia and Bosnia, but Near-East for Serbia. Croatia has more Indo-European lineages than Bosnia though.

Note that the data you copied if for Bosnia-Herzegovina, not for ethnic Bosniaks only. It also includes ethnic Serbs and Croats living in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

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## cordobesforever

Good job!

Maciamo, you know by chance which was the genetic makeup (in haplogroups) of pre-Roman Italy?

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## maltesekid

serbia is more near eastern of the 3 but not as much as albania and greeks obviously

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## Joro

well, Serbia falls much more with Albania and Greece speaking of Near Eastern Lineages.
Croatia has Near Eastern genes as much as Netherlands,and Bosnia(without Bosnian Serbs) could almost fall in that group as well,although they show more tendencies towards 'classic Balkan DNA' than Croatia.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

Croatia is much more Paleolithic than its neighbors.

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## Joro

Except Bosnia-Herzegovina,of course.

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## Sprinkles

Maciamo, please refrain from using nomenclature that does not properly address the distinct divergence of genotypes found in Herceg-Bosna. The Croatian lineage is highly correlated with lower portions of Dalmatia - of which, both show divergence from northern Croatia. Reproductive isolation from geographic boundaries should not be dismissed when trying to understand genetics. Rather, you are purporting a flawed methodology of boundary analysis. Croatians in Herceg-Bosna are Croatian. The analysis of the country that disregards addressing the differences within sub-populations has no value in attempting to understand those populations. This type of analysis is scientifically imprudent and not worth-becoming of someone who wishes to be taken seriously when discussion genetic differences.



Herceg-Bosni:

Paleolithic European haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) :
Croats = 73.3%
Bosnia = 50.1%
Serbs = 40.8%

Near-Eastern haplogroups (E, J, T) :
Croats = 11.1%
Bosnians = 27.5%
Serbs = 29.7%

Indo-European/Caucasian haplogroups (G2a, R1a, R1b)
Croats = 15.5%
Bosnians = 19.1%
Serbs = 19.8%

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## Joro

> Croatia is much more Paleolithic than its neighbors.


Coon actually noted UP strain in Montenegro,as can be seen on his map:http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troemap9.jpg

however,he didn't pay much attention on Herzegovina,which is at least UP as Montenegro,and Bosnia and Dalmatia,where UP is also very strong,maybe not as exactly much the first two,but more than enough to register it.But we can't blame him,since he needed to fill his map,and therefore he rather used his imagination than scientific studies,in his characteristical fashion :Rolleyes:

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> Coon actually noted UP strain in Montenegro,as can be seen on his map:http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troemap9.jpg
> 
> however,he didn't pay much attention on Herzegovina,which is at least UP as Montenegro,and Bosnia and Dalmatia,where UP is also very strong,maybe not as exactly much the first two,but more than enough to register it.But we can't blame him,since he needed to fill his map,and therefore he rather used his imagination than scientific studies,in his characteristical fashion


Too right, Joro... :Good Job:

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## rogers

Yes I agree that Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina have a strong UP presence. Also they have a distinct Borreby admix that is very unusually placed as the only other regions where such a phenotype predominates is in North Germany, Denmark, Iceland and Norway.

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## Iadera56

> Yes I agree that Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina have a strong UP presence. Also they have a distinct Borreby admix that is very unusually placed as the only other regions where such a phenotype predominates is in North Germany, Denmark, Iceland and Norway.


I am a CM too  :Good Job:

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## Joro

> I am a CM too


we all have some :Satisfied:

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## bosna501

Bosnians are Illyrians they have 50% of I2a (Illyrian)
and the Name Bosnia is real ancient Illyrian Name BOSONA.

The Propaganda of our Neighbourgs is Fall,
we are not Serbs and not Croats we are Bosnians
and the Bosnian christians are Bosnians too but they
are victims of the centauryold Propaganda of our Neighbourgs
and the DNA Tests have shown that all Bosnians are very Similar
and more similar than with croatia or Serbia.

The Truth will EVER Win

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## bosna501

in 1991 john wilks﻿﻿ (Wilkes is the foremost LIVING﻿ authority﻿﻿ on the Illyrians)﻿ said that bosnians are﻿ of illyrian decend. ten years after ALBANIAN accademics﻿ agreed with﻿ him: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu also other experts worlwide like: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and﻿﻿ many others. And then we got the genetic﻿ facts from﻿﻿ Igenea, genograpic and familytreedna.

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## Joro

Maciamo, could you please somehow take care of these spamming posts?

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## bosna501

Spaming Posts???

I think you are a Spamer with your more than Funny comments.

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## LeBrok

lol, yeh, Joro is a guardian of purity and uniqueness of Croatia. You're messing up his point of view. :)

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## Joro

> Spaming Posts???
> 
> I think you are a Spamer with your more than Funny comments.


please, do us a favor and stop vandalizing this noble forum.
It's not my fault you Muslims are so lost and frustrated.

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## bosna501

Muslims oh man have you a Islamophobia???

This is a Genticly and not a Religious Forum.

Hey Joro you are a Joke with really big Complexes
accept the reality its better, your Propagandamachine is a Ruin.

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## bosna501

Croat or Hrvat is a Persian/Iranic Word or Tribe thats never be a nativ
balkanic People your Homeland is not Balkan and you have no more rights than Bosnians on this Region. Bosnians are the real nativ Balkan People and your
Propaganda tried to hide it for centuries.

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## bosna501

"Serb" in the language Bizantinaca is the word that means﻿ "slaves", and that language is usually word "serbula"﻿ means the shoes of slaves, and the word "tzerboulianous" means those who wear cheap,shoes of the poor﻿ . The Serbs were given the name because they have become slaves of the emperor Bizantinaca.

SERBS DONT EXISTS SERBS LIVES ONLY FROM STEELING AND COPYD FROM OTHERS﻿ ! ! !

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## bosna501

The Bosnian﻿ Simbol the Golden Lily
is a ancient﻿ bosnian Simbol
they are archeological founds in bosnia older than 2000 Years with lily simbols.
The bosnian Lily are exist only in Bosnia
is calles international.
LILIUM BOSNIACUM and not Lilium Croaticum or Lilium Serbiacum.

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## bosna501

Ancient﻿ Names of Bosnia

Bathinus, Bosthicus, Bostoensis, Bosona, Bissena,﻿ Bessena, Bosonium Bosnae and today Bosnia.

Serbia is byzantin Servia﻿ = Land of Slave

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## bosna501

Dezitijati, Liburni, Autarijati, Mezeji, Ardani, Labodi, Daorsi, this is only some off Iliryans tribes that lived in Bosnia...﻿

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## doku

Benedict Kuripesic in his travel very well illustrates the Turkish conquest of Bosnia 1531 years, also describes the deserted parts of going through, Herzegovina can't be considered separately truth has parts that are very inaccessible but there are also parts with the best climate in Europe. Many other sources to confirm, so that on a "standing people" in Bosnia in one place 1,400 years can't be spoken. Whatever the IMO that the major haplogroups of indigenous peoples in the Balkans I2a and E-V13, we call them Southern Slavs or Vlachs (Illyrians were missing in the 1st century AD)

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## pxi3351

If you knew anything you would first and foremost know about some basic manners, and refrain from posting provocative language on a forum where factual knowledge is shared.Byzantians pronounced Servia as Serbia because they pronounced V as a B.It is a misconception that the word Slav comes from slave, this is disputed today."Slavs" call themselves Slovenes, the root of the word is Слов/Slov (It means "word" in majority of languages). For Slavene you can use the fact that Слава/Slava means glory in all Slavic languages. The theory that Golden Lily is autonomous to Bosnia region can be argued as well since 90% of the scientists that propose this are of Bosnian origin. Imagine if there was a group of Croatian scientists that publish a research on how Croatians are the most intelligent people in Europe, would you believe it or would you rather believe what a group of scientists with different national backgrounds claim. On the Illyrian tribes: Ardani,Labodi and particulary Daorsi are tribes that are native to Albanian population. These surnames are common even today in Kosovo and northern Albania. None of these however seem to connect to Bosnia.

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## pxi3351

Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.

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## Angela

> Croats do look blondish, Bosnian's do have blondes as well although you will find a lot more Mediterranean look, one thing I noticed as well is the exaggerated Aquiline noses (hook nose) which is present in people of Semitic and Arab origin. I think you would make a difference easily between Croat and Bosnian.


Well, their genetics are very similar indeed, so there goes that...

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## Bachus

> That's not how you should count. Try grouping the haplogroups by origin.
> 
> Paleolithic European haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) :
> 
> Croatia = 51%
> Bosnia = 53%
> Serbia = 35%
> 
> Near-Eastern haplogroups (E, J, T) :
> ...


Serbia has 42,5% Paleolitic-Europeans haplogroups (I2a 34%, I1 8%, I2b 0,5%) https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

Percentage of Paleolitic European haoplogroups among ethnic Serbs is higher for few percents, because Serbia is an multiethnic country with 20% non-Serbs, and because of that genetic of Serbia is not exactly the same as genetic of ethnic Serbs.

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## Angela

It doesn't matter if the y was found in Europe in the Paleolithic. The amount of "Paleolithic" autosomal dna in any modern Europeans is tiny.

We have I1 and I2 ancient samples which are EEF farmer autosomally.

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## Litovoi

> Benedict Kuripesic in his travel very well illustrates the Turkish conquest of Bosnia 1531 years, also describes the deserted parts of going through, Herzegovina can't be considered separately truth has parts that are very inaccessible but there are also parts with the best climate in Europe. Many other sources to confirm, so that on a "standing people" in Bosnia in one place 1,400 years can't be spoken. Whatever the IMO that the major haplogroups of indigenous peoples in the Balkans I2a and E-V13, we call them Southern Slavs or Vlachs (Illyrians were missing in the 1st century AD)


Many/most of the Bosnian stecci,stecak,belonged to the Vlach people,they have scenes with funerary dances,surely connected to the Roman,Samnite and Etruscan traditions from Campagna and S Italy,for example,the Albanella dance or The Tomb of the Dancers from Ruvo.
The dance survived in Western Wallachia,where it's called Hora de Pomana,speaking of stecci,beyond the fancy anthropological links,one thing is clear,they surely knew how to live their lives,because this was oftenly written on the stones.
A good example of living a life comes from the same region,where we can see a detached ,springhtly(desinvolte),direct ,but not a linear ,attitude.

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## Wonomyro

> Many/most of the Bosnian stecci,stecak,belonged to the Vlach people,they have scenes with funerary dances,surely connected to the Roman,Samnite and Etruscan traditions from Campagna and S Italy,for example,the Albanella dance or The Tomb of the Dancers from Ruvo. The dance survived in Western Wallachia,where it's called Hora de Pomana,speaking of stecci,beyond the fancy anthropological links,one thing is clear,they surely knew how to live their lives,because this was oftenly written on the stones.


The inscriptions are Slavic: 




> A fraction of stećci (384[36]) bear inscriptions, mostly in extinct Bosnian Cyrillic, some in Glagolitic and Latin script. *The language has some archaic phrases, characterized by Ikavian while toward the end by Ijekavian yat reflex*.[37]


Ikavian is still spoken by the Croats in Dalmatia, Bosnia, Istria, Slavonia and Vojvodina and partly by the Bosnian muslims in Central and western Bosnia.

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## Litovoi

> The inscriptions are Slavic: 
> Ikavian is still spoken by the Croats in Dalmatia, Bosnia, Istria, Slavonia and Vojvodina and partly by the Bosnian muslims in Central and western Bosnia.


The stecci confirm what we all already knew about the strategic role of the Vlachs within the Slavic states ,they had complete military and commercial responsabilities.At that time,they spoke both Slavic and Romanian,with the traditional form of organization ,katun,preserved,while many toponims and even original names have also survived until the modern period.
These Slavic states have offered lots of opportunities for them,so that's why they choose Slavic,because they were some of the representatives of the Serbian,Croatian,Bosnian kings and nobles ,it legitimized them.
Many stecci have bows and swords carved,while the right hand raised means vassality.Lots of Vlachs were very wealthy,they traded with Venice,that's why the most important site seems to be Radimlja.The Venetians didn't liked them that much ,because they oftenly caused unrest in their cities,some laws chased them away after trading.
Things were different in the Bulgarian Empire,this was a very large state,conquered by the Greeks,we definitely had an extended autonomy.
Not to mention that I have personally met them,very nice people,by the way.
Still,they have that strong Byzantine-Orthodox manners,which made me think that Ochrid was quite far from us,because our elders had clearly seen Orthodoxy differently,a matter of pride,status,more individualistic,probably that's why the Patriarch from Constantinople used to call the Early Wallachian Orthodoxy heretic.
Gentlemen,there is a Romanian Orthodoxy,in Curtea de Arges ,you could still hear' Domne miserere' in the 16th,17th c.

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## Angela

The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics. 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

Click to enlarge...

Attachment 9553

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## Wonomyro

> The stecci confirm what we all already knew about the strategic role of the Vlachs within the Slavic states ,they had complete military and commercial responsibilities.At that time,they spoke both Slavic and Romanian,with the traditional form of organization ,katun,preserved,while many toponims and even original names have survived also until the modern period. These Slavic states have offered lots of opportunities for them,so that's why they choose Slavic,because they were some of the representatives of Serbian,Croatian,Bosnian kings and nobles ,it legitimize them. Many stecci have bows and swords carved,while the right hand raised means vassality.Many were very wealthy,they trade with Venice,that's why the most important site seems to be Radimlja.The Venetians didn't liked them that much ,because they oftenly caused unrest in their cities,some laws chased them away after trading. Things were different in the Bulgarian Empire,this was a very large state,conquered by the Greeks,we definitely had an extended autonomy. Not to mention that I have personally met them,very nice people,by the way.


 The name "Vlach" was initialy used by the Slavs to name speakers of the Latin language. However, when the Vlachs were first mentioned in Croatia and Bosnia they were speaking Slavic language and had Slavic names. It is obvious that the term Vlach got more meanings over time. The funny fact is that mostly Latin speaking citizen of Dubrovnik called the Slavic speaking people in the hinterland - Vlachs, and at the same time they hated when someone called THEM "Vlach"! 

The way of life is not a proof of ethnicity, rather a result of adaptation to a different environment. The "Vlachs" who switched to agriculture quickly lost their "Vlach" label, and started to call other shepherds by that name. The word "Vlach" had different meanings in different times. Present day Croatian genetics does not "see" Vlachs.

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## Lenab

Can you guys help me in my GED match results thread?

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## Lenab



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## Angela

> 


It doesn't matter. Y dna doesn't tell you over all autosomal or "ethnic" similarity. Ydna is less than 2% of a man's make up. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have R1b West Africans.



Bosniaks, Serbian Bosnians, and Croatian Bosnians are virtually indistinguishable from each other in terms of overall genetic similarity. Everything people in the Balkans were told about their "ethnicity" seems to be way off base.

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## Wonomyro

> The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090
> 
> Click to enlarge...


In the Figure 2 one can see that the Hungarian sample shows almost identical proportions but for some reasons it is moved away from "Western Balkan" and paired with French in a group called "West Europe" (!?)

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

 :Useless:

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## Wonomyro

Present day autosomal genetics fits well with this 12th century country (orange): 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_mediterranean_1190_cropped.jpg

...much better then with this 20th century one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sfrj.png

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## Lenab

> It doesn't matter. Y dna doesn't tell you over all autosomal or "ethnic" similarity. Ydna is less than 2% of a man's make up. If that weren't the case, we wouldn't have R1b West Africans.
> 
> 
> 
> Bosniaks, Serbian Bosnians, and Croatian Bosnians are virtually indistinguishable from each other in terms of overall genetic similarity. Everything people in the Balkans were told about their "ethnicity" seems to be way off base.


Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?

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## Lenab

It does matter, however it's just a average idea everyone in the world depends actually.

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## Lenab

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...278#post527278

I made a thread about my GED match results which reflected perfectly on a haplogroup test I did a few years before.

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## Angela

^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?

If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for... 

Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?

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## davef

> Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?


One French sibling inherits autosomes from a great great great granddad, his brother inherits nothing from him. Can we say they are different kinds of French?

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## Angela

> Silly comment isn't it? Saying haplogroups don't matter, haplogroups are your genetic common ancestor, even different Africans don't have common ancestors which makes them different kind of Africans. If haplogroups don't matter and don't reflect a persons race and ethnic groups why has every race got their own haplogroups?


Please do some reading on population genetics. Uniparental markers like the y can be helpful for migration movements, but they can be very unhelpful for an individual's ancestry.

A group of Y chromsome R1b herders goes to Africa, ultimately deriving from EUROPE. They bring very few women with them. By 5-10 generations in of mixing with African women, they are no longer EUROPEAN in any meaningful sense. They are African, they speak African languages, and they look African. 

You have very outmoded ideas. See, if you're rude, people will be rude back.

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## srdceleva

> The Bosniacs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs are virtually identical to one another in terms of overall genetics. 
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090
> 
> Click to enlarge...
> 
> Attachment 9553


Ive seen a lot of former Yugoslavian kits on gedmatch and there are some differences. Croats are more slavic genetically and more nothern shifted while serbs are more bulgarian and med shifted. Hungarians and croats cluster closer on a pca plot than croats and serbs for the most part. Bosnians are everything in between.

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## Wonomyro

> ^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?
> 
> If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for... 
> 
> Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?


Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?

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## Lenab

> One French sibling inherits autosomes from a great great great granddad, his brother inherits nothing from him. Can we say they are different kinds of French?


People have more than one haplogroup usually their main haplogroup links up to their main ancestry like ultimately that's what they are every country has a list of haplogroups

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## Wonomyro

> ^^How many times do I have to agree that Croatians are a lot like Hungarians?
> 
> If you had ever read the paper, or if you read it, understood it, you'd know Kovacevic says the same thing, so the snide emoji is uncalled for... 
> 
> Do you want a tee shirt that says Croatians=Hungarians, or Croatians are not Balkan for Christmas? Would that make you happy?


Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?

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## Angela

> Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?


They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.

Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?

@srdceleva,
Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.

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## Lenab

> Not necessarily. I am just curious about the criteria the authors used to group countries in the graph. Genetic clustering? Geography? Language? Shoe sizes?


Serbians are genetically closer to Croats it varies like South Serbia is closer to Albania and Former Yugo Macedonia

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## Lenab

> They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.
> 
> Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?
> 
> @srdceleva,
> Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
> Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.


What study? me I am not even from Bosnia or whatever

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## srdceleva

> They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.
> 
> Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?
> 
> @srdceleva,
> Gedmatch is no substitute for the kind of analysis done in the study. Plus, my post was limited to three groups:
> Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs.


Ah ok, yes with in bosnia there is no genetic divide. 

Yes gedmatch is super limited but it is interesting how its still capable enough to tell us something. 

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

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## Wonomyro

> They use ADMIXTURE program, Tree Graph, PCA, and IBD. If you don't know what they are you're incapable of understanding the paper, so look them up.
> 
> Why are some of you so proud of your ignorance?


Of course they do. They use nice fancy tools. However they put Hungary into West Europe.

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## Wonomyro

> Serbians are genetically closer to Croats it varies like South Serbia is closer to Albania and Former Yugo Macedonia


Actually Bosnian Serbs are closer to Croats. Serbians (=from Serbia) are more Bulgarian-like as PCA shows.

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## Angela

> What study? me I am not even from Bosnia or whatever


That wasn't addressed to you, if you check. It was addressed to Wonomyro

I've given him the link to the paper two if not three times.

Here it is again...
"Standing at the Gateway to Europe: The genetic structure of the Western Balkan populations
L. Kovacevic et al

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

The ADMIXTURE graph I posted comes from that paper.

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## Lenab

> That wasn't addressed to you, if you check. It was addressed to Wonomyro
> 
> I've given him the link to the paper two if not three times.
> 
> Here it is again...
> "Standing at the Gateway to Europe: The genetic structure of the Western Balkan populations
> L. Kovacevic et al
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090
> ...


I see thank you for your opinion on my thread

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## Lenab

> Actually Bosnian Serbs are closer to Croats. Serbians (=from Serbia) are more Bulgarian-like as PCA shows.


I mean Southern Serbians

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## Angela

> I see thank you for your opinion on my thread


Perhaps this is as good a time as any to start learning the rules here. 

Any member may comment on any thread.

Newbies should be willing to learn from people who know a lot more than they do...

Perhaps you might want to start with the dedicated paper for the Balkans, but you should also read all of the papers listed in the newbie thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ation-Genetics

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## Lenab

> Perhaps this is as good a time as any to start learning the rules here. 
> 
> Any member may comment on any thread.
> 
> Newbies should be willing to learn from people who know a lot more than they do...
> 
> Perhaps you might want to start with the dedicated paper for the Balkans, but you should also read all of the papers listed in the newbie thread:
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ation-Genetics


Angela I know a lot more than the average person about history in general...But I have some things to learn about certain regions still. I am not only interested in Mediterranean history but general history there's also some questions I want to learn about the Steppes so maybe I should do a general question and list the areas that I am interested in?

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## Wonomyro

> I mean Southern Serbians


The PCA plot does not seem to distinguish between Southern Serbians and the rest of Serbians rather between Serbs from Bosnia (light green letters: "Srb") and Serbians (red letters: "Srb"):

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0105090.s002

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## Lenab

Illyrians are not exclusive to one type of people

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## Lenab

> The PCA plot does not seem to distinguish between Southern Serbians and the rest of Serbians rather between Serbs from Bosnia (light green letters: "Srb") and Serbians (red letters: "Srb"):
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...e.0105090.s002


Yeah I know but it does vary sub racially though PCA plots are more based on racial grouping like Jews South Italians Circassians Greeks Turks etc

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## Lenab

They might not feel their genetics is enough to differentiate between them, like North and South Italy, I don't know I am not that much of an expert

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## Litovoi

> The name "Vlach" was initialy used by the Slavs to name speakers of the Latin language. However, when the Vlachs were first mentioned in Croatia and Bosnia they were speaking Slavic language and had Slavic names. It is obvious that the term Vlach got more meanings over time. The funny fact is that mostly Latin speaking citizen of Dubrovnik called the Slavic speaking people in the hinterland - Vlachs, and at the same time they hated when someone called THEM "Vlach"! 
> The way of life is not a proof of ethnicity, rather a result of adaptation to a different environment. The "Vlachs" who switched to agriculture quickly lost their "Vlach" label, and started to call other shepherds by that name. The word "Vlach" had different meanings in different times. Present day Croatian genetics does not "see" Vlachs.


Jirecek's theory is not reliable anymore,the Vlachs from Serbia,Bosnia and Croatia had typical positions and forms of organization,recorded later as well,during the Ottoman Empire,like,premikurs,katunars,protogers,kjelators ,lagators,voyvods and knezes(only the last two are Slavic).
The Morlachs were initially Orthodox,while the Istro-Romanians speak/spoke a language that shares the n-r rhotacism with Tosk Albanian and some Transylvanian dialects,the Romanian-Latin names with this feature are recorded in Bosnia,in the regions towards Serbia, until the late 19th-early 20th c.
They had preserved their identity,for instance,by having an important military role in the Croatian frontier for both the Ottomans and Austrians,"see" a not that complicated link called Statuta Valachorum.
EDIT
I believe that the"Vlachs" are just as good at replying quotes like any other Serb,Bosnian,Croatian.

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## Wonomyro

> Jirecek's theory is not reliable anymore,the Vlachs from Serbia,Bosnia and Croatia had typical positions and forms of organization,very oftenly recorded later as well,during the Ottoman Empire,like,premikurs,katunars,protogers,kjelators ,lagators,voyvods and knezes(only the last two are Slavic). The Morlachs were initially Orthodox,while the Istro-Romanians speak/spoke a language that shares the n-r rhotacism with Tosk Albanian and some Transylvanian dialects,the Romanian-Latin names with this feature are recorded in Bosnia,in the regions towards Serbia, until the late 19th-early 20th c.


 Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages. 

“Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians. 

The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.

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## Sile

> Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages. “Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians. The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.


The venetians did believe in what you say and also that the balkans was comprised of mostly ancient thracians and greeks until the iron-age.

I also believe in this as I see the Dalmatians arrived on the adriatic coast from southern Austria not before 600BC.

Italians match better with romanians, bulgarians, albanians and greeks , which is this greek and thracian only theory for the balkans ...............we see little slavic matching with Italians except a bit in NE-Italy , but this is usually I1 marker which seems to be ancient Illyrian from Noricum ( east -Austria ) ..........although in mtdna , the big big difference is the plus 14% extra of T2b over any other area of Italy. This T2b matches northern Romania - Moldavia area ...............a

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## Litovoi

> Some common features that Dalmatian shepherds shared with Vlach and Albanian speakers could be very easily due to the cultural contacts as well as a result of intermarriages. 
> “Morlachs” never existed as ethnicity except in the minds of Venetians. 
> The existence of "Statuta Valachorum" is a direct proof that "Vlachs" were also a social category.


You force me to become more technical,
The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.

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## Wonomyro

> You force me to become more technical, The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.


There were different peoples speaking different languages under the umbrella terms "Vlach" and "Morlack". A distinct lifestyle and a special social status made them appear as a homogeneous group for an external observer. A small group from Istria (Ćići) is bilingual so there is no reason to favour one origin over another. Vlach status was attractive for Slavs, especially serfs, and AFAIK in order to become Vlach, no one was required a blood test. 

If you dont believe what I said, just take a look at the Romanian autosomes. Even with the massive Slavic influx in the past, present day Romanians still appear far "more Balkan" than Croats.

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## Bachus

> You force me to become more technical,
> The Morlachs and Vlachs were firstly recorded in those regions at exactly the same time,their movement to Istria is well-documented ,while the language is definitely not Dalmatian.


Language of Ćići (Morlachs) known as Istro-Romanian is not Dalmatian (Romance) language.

Istro-Romanian is eastern Romance language such as Romanian and Aromanian, on the other hand Dalmatian language was Italic branch of Romance language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

Morlachs were not native Latin speakers of western Balkans, they were imigrants from central or southern Balkans.
They came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century, and from there they migrated to Istria and Kvarner in late 15th and early 16th century. 
They settled in Istria and Kvarner, and there they were known as Ćići.

Language of native Latin spekers of eastern Adriatic coats was Dalmatian, and that population are originates from Illyrians, some of them are slavized in early middle age and some in the late middle age, last speaker of Dalmatian language was Tuone Udaina and he died in year 1898 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuone_Udaina

This is Istro-Romanian (aka Morlach) language

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## Wonomyro

> Morlachs were not native Latin speakers of western Balkans, they were imigrants from central or southern Balkans. They came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century, and from there they migrated to Istria and Kvarner in late 15th and early 16th century.



There is no proof that the people called Vlachs came from central or southern Balkans to Dalmatian Hinterland in 14th century. The mountain shepherds existed before 14th century in Dalmatia but only around 14-15th century the local sources started to use that term for them. 

The term itself emerged in the Balkans (e.g. Serbian charters) where the pastorals were mostly real Vlachs:





> The Vlach law refers to various *special laws and privileges enforced upon pastoralist communities in Europe in the Late Middle Ages* and Early modern period. The term "Vlachs" originally denoted Romance-speaking populations, primarily concerned with pastoralism; *the term became synonymous with "shepherds"*.[1] The *concept originates in the laws enforced on Vlachs in the medieval Balkans*.[2] In medieval Serbian charters, the pastoral community, primarily made up of Vlachs, were held under special laws due to their nomadic lifestyle.[3] In late medieval Croatian documents Vlachs were held by special law in which "those in villages" pay tax and "those without villages" (nomads) serve as cavalry.[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlach_law

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