# Europe Forum > Travelling & Living in Europe > Eastern Europe >  Which countries are considered Eastern European?

## Starlight

Are Balkans and West Slavic countries,such as Slovakia and Czech Republic in Eastern Europe too?

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## Amber87

I get a bit angry when I hear I am from Eastern Europe. I am from Poland and I believe the most of us don't consider ourselves as Eastern Europeans. We are Central Europeans (or Central-Eastern Europeans)! We are Slavic like Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainian, but we have been Catholics since the Middle Ages (whereas they have been Orthodox). Our history, architecture, culture and identity (and often roots) have much more to do with our west neighbour than the east ones. I can't accept that many people in the West think that we are from "the other world", just because we were under Soviet control for 44 years in our 1052 years' history. I like, respect and consider interesting Eastern Europeans but I don't wish to be called like that, because I don't even know how to read their alphabet. I think the people who do it, are ignorants. It feels like: "You are not like us. We have nothing in common. Go away and make friends in your Russia." I know that it is technically easier to call us like that, but it is misleading. Why can't you create two or more divisions instead of one (Central-Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe)? We are much more varied than you believe.

For your information:
WESTERN EUROPE ("former colonisators"):
in the south - Portugal, Spain, Italy
in the north - Ireland, UK, France, Benelux
CENTRAL EUROPE (formerly under German/Austrian influence):
in the west - Switzerland, Germany, Austria
in the east - Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary
NORTHERN EUROPE ("light blondes"):
in the west - Island, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland
in the east - Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
EASTERN EUROPE ("orthodox"):
in the north - Russia, Belarus, Ukraine
in the south - Romania and Moldavia, West Balkans, East Balkans, Greece

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## LeBrok

> *I get a bit angry* when I hear I am from Eastern Europe. I am from Poland and I believe the most of us *don't consider ourselves as Eastern Europeans*. We are Central Europeans (or Central-Eastern Europeans)! We are Slavic like Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainian, *but we have been Catholics* since the Middle Ages (whereas *they have been Orthodox*). Our history, architecture, culture and identity (and often roots) *have much more to do with our west neighbour than the east ones*. I can't accept that many people in the West think that we are from "the other world", just because we were under Soviet control for 44 years in our 1052 years' history. I like, respect and consider interesting Eastern Europeans but I don't wish to be called like that, because* I don't even know how to read their alphabet.* I think the people who do it, are ignorants. It feels like: "You are not like us. We have nothing in common. *Go away and make friends in your Russia.*" I know that it is technically easier to call us like that, but it is misleading. Why can't you create two or more divisions instead of one (Central-Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe)? We are much more varied than you believe.
> 
> For your information:
> WESTERN EUROPE ("former colonisators"):
> in the south - Portugal, Spain, Italy
> in the north - Ireland, UK, France, Benelux
> CENTRAL EUROPE (formerly under German/Austrian influence):
> in the west - Switzerland, Germany, Austria
> in the east - Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary
> ...


Do you mean that there are better people in the West, than in the East, to makes you want to identify with? Is it hard to be proud Eastern European? 
I'd say, Polish language belongs to Slavic family and which belongs to Eastern Europe. Polish food and drinks are more like Eastern European. Traditional elite dresses were more like Eastern European. Traditions were Slavic/Eastern European. Polish people are more traditional and conservative like most Eastern Europe. Less economically develop like Eastern Europe. More religious like most of Eastern Europe. Etc.
I have to add, that on top of it Poles are much closer genetically to many of Eastern Europe than anyone of Western Europe.

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## don_joe

> I get a bit angry when I hear I am from Eastern Europe. I am from Poland and I believe the most of us don't consider ourselves as Eastern Europeans. We are Central Europeans (or Central-Eastern Europeans)! We are Slavic like Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainian, but we have been Catholics since the Middle Ages (whereas they have been Orthodox). Our history, architecture, culture and identity (and often roots) have much more to do with our west neighbour than the east ones. I can't accept that many people in the West think that we are from "the other world", just because we were under Soviet control for 44 years in our 1052 years' history. I like, respect and consider interesting Eastern Europeans but I don't wish to be called like that, because I don't even know how to read their alphabet. I think the people who do it, are ignorants. It feels like: "You are not like us. We have nothing in common. Go away and make friends in your Russia." I know that it is technically easier to call us like that, but it is misleading. Why can't you create two or more divisions instead of one (Central-Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe)? We are much more varied than you believe.
> 
> For your information:
> WESTERN EUROPE ("former colonisators"):
> in the south - Portugal, Spain, Italy
> in the north - Ireland, UK, France, Benelux
> CENTRAL EUROPE (formerly under German/Austrian influence):
> in the west - Switzerland, Germany, Austria
> in the east - Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary
> ...


I don't know who made this list above but there is a big mistake there. 

In your last line at least, you put West Balkans under EASTERN EUROPE ("orthodox") and that's completely wrong. First let's go back to you, where you correct some ignorants that the Poles are actually Central Europeans and in addition also Catholics, which have historically and culturally more in common with West Europeans than their eastern neighbours. I suppose the same goes for West Balkans. The big part of it are Catholics, connected since the Early Middle Ages to Western states and the Pope. Not less than Poland.

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## LeBrok

> I don't know who made this list above but there is a big mistake there. 
> 
> In your last line at least, you put West Balkans under EASTERN EUROPE ("orthodox") and that's completely wrong. First let's go back to you, where you correct some ignorants that the Poles are actually Central Europeans and in addition also Catholics, which have historically and culturally more in common with West Europeans than their eastern neighbours. I suppose the same goes for West Balkans. The big part of it are Catholics, connected since the Early Middle Ages to Western states and the Pope. Not less than Poland.


 The funny thing is that she considers herself open minded, kind and tolerant person, but at the end of the day she has strongly nationalistic/superiority agenda. She considers Poland and herself better than the rest of Eastern Europe. She belongs to the West, the superior part of Europe. Eastern Europe stinks, nothing to be proud of. Croatia? Who cares!
Perhaps she wants to humor us if Ukrainian and Belarusian Catholics should be called Western or Central Europeans too. Compartmentalize, segregate, build walls, feel proud.

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## Yetos

oh boy

it depends the criteria always,

it is another West the Carlomagnenian Europe and East Byzantine Europe
Another the Catholic and Orthodox and Protestanding North
another West the outside and inside ex- Iron curtain line 
another the EU and non EU East
another the Slavic East Europe vs non Slavic West
etc etc 

the criteria of Division,
as for geographical terms

West is West of Alps
Center is from Alps to Tatra and carpathian mountains
and East is East of Tatra and carpathian mountains
but that creates other problems

so better use the correct criteria each time we divide Europe to East and West

for example Greece
can pass to East due to Byzantine
can pass to East due to Orthodox
can pass to West due to ex-Iron Curtain line
can pass to West due to non Slavic country
can pass to central due to geographical length, west of carpathian mts

which you choose?

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## Salento

The Former Soviet/Eastern Communist/Socialist Bloc.

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## LABERIA

> The Former Soviet/Eastern Communist Bloc.


It’s a short period of time, only 40 years, nothing in comparison with thousands of years of divisions.

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## Salento

> It’s a short period of time, only 40 years, nothing in comparison with thousands of years of divisions.


Here is the Soviet Bloc.

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## LABERIA

> Here is the Soviet Bloc.


I know which countries were part of Communist Bloc. But let me repeat again that 40 years of communism are nothing. History didn't started with the Iron Curtain.
Albania was part of this Bloc for less than 15 years. Meanwhile we are in good relations in the last 30 years with West, we are part of NATO and we have asked to be part of EU. Following your logic we are now an western country.

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## Salento

> I know which countries were part of Communist Bloc. But let me repeat again that 40 years of communism are nothing. History didn't started with the Iron Curtain.
> Albania was part of this Bloc for less than 15 years. Meanwhile we are in good relations in the last 30 years with West, we are part of NATO and we have asked to be part of EU. Following your logic we are now an western country.


By picking and choosing a time frame the answer change.

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## LABERIA

> By picking and choosing a time frame the answer change.


But excuse me, there are 1.000 years of Byzantine and 500 years of Ottoman Empire legacy.

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## Salento

I mean no disrespect.
Right or wrong, Up to recently, we associated The Soviet Bloc as East Europe. :) 
Also I’m 9%, 7, 5, 2.2, 0.2 Eastern European according to all the Main Ancestry Sites.

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## LABERIA

> I mean no disrespect.
> Right or wrong, Up to recently, we associated The Soviet Bloc as East Europe. :) 
> Also I’m 9%, 7, 5, 2.2, 0.2 Eastern European according to all the Main Ancestry Sites.


Balcan Peninsula in my opinion is East Europe.

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## Yetos

> Balcan Peninsula in my opinion is East Europe.


nah

I think the 4-5 most south Aimos peninsula countries
are a group of their own,

call it the ex-Ottoman countries

neither west neither east just Balkans

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## Salento

@Laberia @Yetos
East Europe according to LivingDNA:

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## Yetos

> @Laberia @Yetos
> East Europe according to LivingDNA:



well as I said,

Not East, not West

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## 50cal

> The funny thing is that she considers herself open minded, kind and tolerant person, but at the end of the day she has strongly nationalistic/superiority agenda. She considers Poland and herself better than the rest of Eastern Europe. She belongs to the West, the superior part of Europe. Eastern Europe stinks, nothing to be proud of. Croatia? Who cares!
> Perhaps she wants to humor us if Ukrainian and Belarusian Catholics should be called Western or Central Europeans too. Compartmentalize, segregate, build walls, feel proud.


Let's call everyone Eastern European in that case. Down with the compartmentalization!

People from North America, but also a lot of people from Europe and other parts of the world tend to throw around the term 'Eastern Europe' as if it doesn't mean anything. Words have meanings.

Eastern Europe can be a geographical term. Or it can be a political term. A cultural term. You decide.

But once you've made up your mind, you have to try to activate your neurons to use the term in a fitting context.

This subforum relates to traveling. What does Albania have in common with, say, Estonia in terms of traveling? Nothing. There's literally no overlap. Not in terms of geography, culture, architecture, religion, language, economy, politics. There's not a single unique thing in common between these two nations.

Now, what could be the reason why the Benelux countries, which are the size of Latvia, have a subforum of its own, yet a couple of dozen allegedly Eastern European nations are thrown together randomly?

The reason is intellectual laziness or a complete lack of knowledge. Or casual racism. Because it's OK to be racist towards white people, right? I'm not being facetious, by the way.

Give me a single valid reason why the use of this subforum in its current form makes sense.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

This:



The reason being that Eastern Europe is defined in contrast to Western Europe, much in the same way that Asia is separate from Europe despite both Europe and Asia being clearly part of the same continent - Eurasia. It's basically Western European "exclusiveness" bias (everyone else is seen as somewhat more backwards, even barbarian). So, what ends up happening is that the countries that aren't seen as related to the West are just lumped together.

The only countries that I would say are borderline are Czechia, Hungary and Croatia. Czechia and Hungary could be seen as somewhat Central European rather than Eastern Europe, for the simple reason that they are perceived as more culturally sophisticated (basically, Prague and Budapest), and as a rule Eastern Europe is backwards. And Croatia is often seen as more Mediterranean due to their beach tourism.

And to clear things up, NOBODY sees Poland as part of Central Europe. Whenever anybody mentions Eastern Europe, they think Poland. This isn't necessarily so for Russia, because Russia is seen as more distantly European and, well, Russian. If I were to list the basic regions of Europe as envisioned by Western eyes, it would be as follows: "true" Western Europe (the UK, France, Germany etc.), the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland etc.), the Mediterranean countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece), Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania, Lithuania etc.), and Russia.

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## LABERIA

> This:
> 
> The reason being that Eastern Europe is defined in contrast to Western Europe, much in the same way that Asia is separate from Europe despite both Europe and Asia being clearly part of the same continent - Eurasia. It's basically Western European "exclusiveness" bias (everyone else is seen as somewhat more backwards, even barbarian). So, what ends up happening is that the countries that aren't seen as related to the West are just lumped together.
> The only countries that I would say are borderline are Czechia, Hungary and Croatia. Czechia and Hungary could be seen as somewhat Central European rather than Eastern Europe, for the simple reason that they are perceived as more culturally sophisticated (basically, Prague and Budapest), and as a rule Eastern Europe is backwards. And Croatia is often seen as more Mediterranean due to their beach tourism.
> And to clear things up, NOBODY sees Poland as part of Central Europe. Whenever anybody mentions Eastern Europe, they think Poland. This isn't necessarily so for Russia, because Russia is seen as more distantly European and, well, Russian. If I were to list the basic regions of Europe as envisioned by Western eyes, it would be as follows: "true" Western Europe (the UK, France, Germany etc.), the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland etc.), the Mediterranean countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece), Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania, Lithuania etc.), and Russia.


So, according to you 45 years of Cold War decide which countries are East or Ovest in a continent with thousands of years of history?

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## LeBrok

> So, according to you 45 years of Cold War decide which countries are East or Ovest in a continent with thousands of years of history?


Roughly the divide goes through center of Europe so it helps to solidify this view. What baffles me is that Eastern Europeans take offence to this!

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## 50cal

> This:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason being that Eastern Europe is defined in contrast to Western Europe, much in the same way that Asia is separate from Europe despite both Europe and Asia being clearly part of the same continent - Eurasia. It's basically Western European "exclusiveness" bias (everyone else is seen as somewhat more backwards, even barbarian). So, what ends up happening is that the countries that aren't seen as related to the West are just lumped together.
> 
> The only countries that I would say are borderline are Czechia, Hungary and Croatia. Czechia and Hungary could be seen as somewhat Central European rather than Eastern Europe, for the simple reason that they are perceived as more culturally sophisticated (basically, Prague and Budapest), and as a rule Eastern Europe is backwards. And Croatia is often seen as more Mediterranean due to their beach tourism.
> 
> And to clear things up, NOBODY sees Poland as part of Central Europe. Whenever anybody mentions Eastern Europe, they think Poland. This isn't necessarily so for Russia, because Russia is seen as more distantly European and, well, Russian. If I were to list the basic regions of Europe as envisioned by Western eyes, it would be as follows: "true" Western Europe (the UK, France, Germany etc.), the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland etc.), the Mediterranean countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece), Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania, Lithuania etc.), and Russia.


So casual racism it is then. Got it.

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## 50cal

Protestant Riga and Tallinn, a Western outpost in the Baltic for nearly a millenium, with its Gothic roof gables and Hanseatic red brick facades, with its church staples, with its narrow cobblestone streets and fortresses, canals, and city walls built by the Teutonic Order. 
Two nations that have always been on the frontline against invaders from the East, be it Mongolian hordes, Slavic tribes or totalitarian 
tyrants with their delusions of grandeure. We have always bore the brunt of it all. There's a couple of million Russian bodies buried in our lands from all the wars we have fought against them throughout the centuries. If it wasn't for us and the sacrifices we made, the Iron Curtain would lie far further to the West.
Our economies were crippled by the Soviet experiment. My great grandfather waged guerrila warfare against the Russians for 14 years up until the early 1950s. My father was a part of the independence movement in the 1980s. We laid our lives, were deported, imprisoned, shot, maimed and killed in the fight against them. Yet somehow we are being reduced to this nondescript Eastern Euro label by a soft-bodied Anglo-Saxon ignoramus drowned in postmaterialist sludge all because of a few decades of Soviet military occupation.
I'd wager we're one of the last truly Western places left.
As for being backwards, look up some freedom indices, education rankings, economic growth rates. Go read a history book. Educate yourself.

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## LeBrok

> Protestant Riga and Tallinn, a Western outpost in the Baltic for nearly a millenium, with its Gothic roof gables and Hanseatic red brick facades, with its church staples, with its narrow cobblestone streets and fortresses, canals, and city walls built by the Teutonic Order. 
> Two nations that have always been on the frontline against invaders from the East, be it Mongolian hordes, Slavic tribes or totalitarian 
> tyrants with their delusions of grandeure. We have always bore the brunt of it all. There's a couple of million Russian bodies buried in our lands from all the wars we have fought against them throughout the centuries. If it wasn't for us and the sacrifices we made, the Iron Curtain would lie far further to the West.
> Our economies were crippled by the Soviet experiment. My great grandfather waged guerrila warfare against the Russians for 14 years up until the early 1950s. My father was a part of the independence movement in the 1980s. We laid our lives, were deported, imprisoned, shot, maimed and killed in the fight against them. Yet somehow we are being reduced to this nondescript Eastern Euro label by a soft-bodied Anglo-Saxon ignoramus drowned in postmaterialist sludge all because of a few decades of Soviet military occupation.
> *I'd wager we're one of the last truly Western places left*.


Nicely soaked through with nationalistic hatred towards others. I knew you must be the pinnacle of humankind, nevermind the Western delight.

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## 50cal

> Nicely soaked through with nationalistic hatred towards others. I knew you must be the pinnacle of humankind, nevermind the Western delight.


Being a part of the West includes a set of values that one subscribes to.

It has got nothing to do with hatred of others.

You don't have to hate others in believing that freedom of speech, freedom of thought, economic freedom, political freedom, justice and a moral compass makes a society better overall. Not willing to be associated with parts of the world, which do not share anything of the like with you, is not an act of hatred.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and what you stand for.

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## davef

If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.

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## markod

> Being a part of the West includes a set of values that one subscribes to.
> 
> It has got nothing to do with hatred of others.
> 
> You don't have to hate others in believing that freedom of speech, freedom of thought, economic freedom, political freedom, justice and a moral compass makes a society better overall. Not willing to be associated with parts of the world, which do not share anything of the like with you, is not an act of hatred.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and what you stand for.


"The West" is hardly a scientific category. You'll just have to come to terms with the fact that mostly everyone considers Latvia to be an Eastern European country. Some humility might help against your quite comical anti-Russian bigotry.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.


That's just so dumb

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> So, according to you 45 years of Cold War decide which countries are East or Ovest in a continent with thousands of years of history?


No, you haven't got it. 50cal did though.

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## LABERIA

> Protestant Riga and Tallinn, a Western outpost in the Baltic for nearly a millenium, with its Gothic roof gables and Hanseatic red brick facades, with its church staples, with its narrow cobblestone streets and fortresses, canals, and city walls built by the Teutonic Order. 
> Two nations that have always been on the frontline against invaders from the East, be it Mongolian hordes, Slavic tribes or totalitarian 
> tyrants with their delusions of grandeure. We have always bore the brunt of it all. There's a couple of million Russian bodies buried in our lands from all the wars we have fought against them throughout the centuries. If it wasn't for us and the sacrifices we made, the Iron Curtain would lie far further to the West.
> Our economies were crippled by the Soviet experiment. My great grandfather waged guerrila warfare against the Russians for 14 years up until the early 1950s. My father was a part of the independence movement in the 1980s. We laid our lives, were deported, imprisoned, shot, maimed and killed in the fight against them. Yet somehow we are being reduced to this nondescript Eastern Euro label by a soft-bodied Anglo-Saxon ignoramus drowned in postmaterialist sludge all because of a few decades of Soviet military occupation.
> I'd wager we're one of the last truly Western places left.
> As for being backwards, look up some freedom indices, education rankings, economic growth rates. Go read a history book. Educate yourself.


I didn't know that Baltic Republics defended Europe for thousands of years. 
A friendly advice, forget these imaginary millions of Russians bodies buried in your land and be careful from the real Russians because they are winning elections in your countries.

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## LABERIA

> Roughly the divide goes through center of Europe so it helps to solidify this view. What baffles me is that Eastern Europeans take offence to this!


There is also a "great" "intellectual" discussion which state can be considered part of the Balkan Peninsula and who is not.
We are watching overturn some basic principles we learned at school when we were children.

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## 50cal

> If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.


The geographical center of Europe is found a lot further East than you probably imagine. But otherwise it's an obvious point, which makes perfect sense.

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## 50cal

> I didn't know that Baltic Republics defended Europe for thousands of years. 
> A friendly advice, forget these imaginary millions of Russians bodies buried in your land and be careful from the real Russians because they are winning elections in your countries.


Deary me, I guess you're not being taught history in Albania.
The part about million bodies wasn't hyperbole. If you're willing to challenge that point further, I'll give you a fair chance and let you do some research of your own first before schooling you.
Also:
a) you should probably educate yourself on how proportional election systems work — having the most votes doesn't mean you won,
b) granting people voting rights is the right thing to do.
As for being careful, we don't have any reason to be careful. I am prepared, though, if you're wondering. I'm keeping my assault rifle and sidegun at home, just like a good deal of my friends are. If need be, we're going to add another million bodies to our lovely soil. It makes it more fertile.

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## 50cal

> "The West" is hardly a scientific category. You'll just have to come to terms with the fact that mostly everyone considers Latvia to be an Eastern European country. Some humility might help against your quite comical anti-Russian bigotry.


The Americans thought the Natives were Indians. It doesn't constitute an argument.

And, yes, 'the West' is a term in social sciences. 

In fact, any term - whether academic or not - has a definition. If you're using language as a means of communication, you'll have to stick to that principle.

So, once again, please provide a definition that suits your understanding of the term 'Eastern Europe' and explain why it applies to Latvia.

Otherwise you're just throwing words around senselessly.

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## markod

> The Americans thought the Natives were Indians. It doesn't constitute an argument.
> 
> And, yes, 'the West' is a term in social sciences. 
> 
> In fact, any term - whether academic or not - has a definition. If you're using language as a means of communication, you'll have to stick to that principle.
> 
> So, once again, please provide a definition that suits your understanding of the term 'Eastern Europe' and explain why it applies to Latvia.
> 
> Otherwise you're just throwing words around senselessly.


It is obvious that you are a mentally ill man seeing as you have vivid fantasies about shooting people with your assault rifle, so I'm not going to have a discussion with you. Whatever your grievances, you might want to reflect upon the fact that your country and your people owe their very existence to the great sacrifices of the people whose bodies you want to fertilize your soil with.

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## LeBrok

> Being a part of the West includes a set of values that one subscribes to.
> 
> It has got nothing to do with hatred of others.
> 
> You don't have to hate others in believing that freedom of speech, freedom of thought, economic freedom, political freedom, justice and a moral compass makes a society better overall. .


Oh, now you are dividing West and East in different way than first time, when you plastered religious denomination map. You see the freedoms and justice that you listed have nothing to do with religious dogma, and more about going away from it.
What's wrong with dividing Europe just geographically for West and East, or North and South?

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## 50cal

> It is obvious that you are a mentally ill man seeing as you have vivid fantasies about shooting people with your assault rifle, so I'm not going to have a discussion with you. Whatever your grievances, you might want to reflect upon the fact that your country and your people owe their very existence to the great sacrifices of the people whose bodies you want to fertilize your soil with.


I'm not having fantasies about it, I just wouldn't mind doing it if my land was invaded, since I have the skills and the inclination and a contractual obligation with the Latvian military.

Resorting to ad hominem arguments was your only way out of this, so you opted for that cowardly route.

How do my people own existence to Russia? That sounds like a joke. Only Russians, some East Slavs and Serbs would think of something like that.

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## markod

> I'm not having fantasies about it, I just wouldn't mind doing it if my land was invaded, since I have the skills and the inclination and a contractual obligation with the Latvian military.
> 
> Resorting to ad hominem arguments was your only way out of this, so you opted for that cowardly route.
> 
> How do my people own existence to Russia? That sounds like a joke. Only Russians, some East Slavs and Serbs would think of something like that.


They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.

The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.

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## 50cal

> Oh, now you are dividing West and East in different way than first time, when you plastered religious denomination map. You see the freedoms and justice that you listed have nothing to do with religious dogma, and more about going away from it.
> What's wrong with dividing Europe just geographically for West and East, or North and South?


Excuse me, the Reformation was all about being against mindless religious dogma, about being against an unfair, corrupt way of doing things. It's one of the great paradigm shifts of modern history. It's got nothing to do with religion. I'm not religious. It's just one of the main layers that define 'Northern Europe'.

There's nothing wrong with dividing Europe geographically. The problem with is that people's geography knowledge isn't any better than their understanding of history. Latvia and Estonia lie North of Denmark and West of Finland. If they're Eastern European, neither Denmark, nor Finland are Northern European.

The eastern edge of Europe is located thousands of kilometres East in the Urals. Most North Americans are not aware of it. The centre of Europe is to the Southeast of the centre of Latvia, if you're using the gravitational method and not including far away islands off the continent.

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## 50cal

> They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.
> 
> The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.


I actually have done research on Nazi racial policies in the Baltics. As in, I've read through the archives. Most of what you wrote here is outright incorrect. Actually, upon further inspection, every single statement you made is factually incorrect.

Latvians and Estonians were deemed suitable for Germanization. Only Latgalians and Lithuanians were to be deported (and even then not exterminated) and either sent further East or used as guards and overseers of Slavic forced labour camps in Siberia on an industrial scale. Latgalians, just like the Belarusians, were deemed culturally backwards, based on their century-long connection to the Russian Empire under the Vitebsk Governorate. 'They were so backwards, they should not be considered a threat' is very close to a quotation of one Nazi official.

Note that I'm talking about Nazi policy after the invasion of the Soviet Union and after the Baltics were occupied. That was the first time they carried actual 'research' measuring skulls and the like. Their policies were updated accordingly based on what they saw on the ground.

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## 50cal

> They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.
> 
> The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.


Oh, and you seem absolutely clueless about the Soviet genocide that followed WWII. Basically, you just said that 'the state of Israel should be thankful to Nazi Germany, because they owe their existence to them'. It is so mind-blowingly offensive, indecent even, that I don't even know where to begin.

But I'm not offended by idiots, so I'm not going to further elaborate on that.

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## markod

> I actually have done research on Nazi racial policies in the Baltics. As in, I've read through the archives. Most of what you wrote here is outright incorrect. Actually, upon further inspection, every single statement you made is factually incorrect.
> 
> Latvians and Estonians were deemed suitable for Germanization. Only Latgalians and Lithuanians were to be deported (and even then not exterminated) and either sent further East or used as guards and overseers of Slavic forced labour camps in Siberia on an industrial scale. Latgalians, just like the Belarusians, were deemed culturally backwards, based on their century-long connection to the Russian Empire under the Vitebsk Governorate. 'They were so backwards, they should not be considered a threat' is very close to a quotation of one Nazi official.
> 
> Note that I'm talking about Nazi policy after the invasion of the Soviet Union and after the Baltics were occupied. That was the first time they carried actual 'research' measuring skulls and the like. Their policies were updated accordingly based on what they saw on the ground.


You got duped. Quoted directly from the Generalplan Ost document:




> Auch bei den baltischen Völkern, führte Schubert weiter aus,sei die Zahl der rassisch Wertvollen nicht so erheblich. Eine Besiedlung des Landesmit Deutschen sei nicht unmöglich.


Plug it in a translator. Schubert, the Nazi racial scientist, compares the percentage of desirables to Poland, where it was 3-5%.

Mind you that's the moderate perspective - Himmler wanted a clean slate.

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## markod

> Oh, and you seem absolutely clueless about the Soviet genocide that followed WWII. Basically, you just said that 'the state of Israel should be thankful to Nazi Germany, because they owe their existence to them'. It is so mind-blowingly offensive, indecent even, that I don't even know where to begin.
> 
> But I'm not offended by idiots, so I'm not going to further elaborate on that.


No, Russian soldiers literally died in droves defending Eastern Europe against genocidal colonization. Are you joking now?

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## 50cal

> You got duped. Quoted directly from the Generalplan Ost document:
> Plug it in a translator. Schubert, the Nazi racial scientist, compares the percentage of desirables to Poland, where it was 3-5%.
> Mind you that's the moderate perspective - Himmler wanted a clean slate.


The planned Nazi racial policy towards the Baltic peoples has been clearly outlined in: "Abschlußbericht der rassischen Musterungskommission Ostland, 05.11.1942. R90/148, BA."
The distinction between ethnic Latvians and the people of Latgale has been clearly implied in "Betrifft: Dr. H. Schlau: Rassenpolitische Erwagungen zur Umvolkung der Letten, Schlau, 15.02.1942. R 70/5/89, LVVA."
There's a lot of information on future Nazi racial policies in the reports by Nazi ethnographic researcher Dr. Georg Leibbrandt and in the reports compiled by Dr. Gunther Holz that were sent to Leibbrandt. They are available in Latvian historical archives.
The initial Nazi racial policies were radically changed during the course of the occupation of Latvian and Estonian territories, as they had no anthropometric data and had not carried out any extensive ethnographic research beforehand.
Your quoation speaks of the Baltic peoples as a single entity, while it has been well documented that Lithuanians, Latgalians, Latvians and Estonians were all measured separately, as I explained previously.
In any case, your original point collapses on itself irrespective of Nazi policies. What we experienced was forced expulsion, mass murder and mass deportations with the intent of Russifying our nation under the hands of the Soviets. The difference between the Nazis and the Soviets is that the Soviets actually tried to do it.
To say that we should he thankful for that is immoral, evil and only a degenerate would think of something like it.

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## Angela

Gee, I guess we just don't get it, Markod.

50cal's whole point seems to be that there's something wrong with being "Eastern European", because that means "Slavic", and for him as well as for the Nazis, according to him, SLAVS would eventually all go to the crematoria, but Latvians and Estonians weren't and aren't "Untermenschen" and would be spared after being "Germanized". 

I guess it was true for some: lots of Latvian guards at extermination camps.

Nobody brought up the Hajnal line? St. Petersburg to Trieste, guys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

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## 50cal

> Gee, I guess we just don't get it, Markod.
> 50cal's whole point seems to be that there's something wrong with being "Eastern European", because that means "Slavic", and for him as well as for the Nazis, according to him, SLAVS would eventually all go to the crematoria, but Latvians and Estonians weren't and aren't "Untermenschen" and would be spared after being "Germanized". 
> I guess it was true for some: lots of Latvian guards at extermination camps.


There's nothing wrong with being Eastern European. It is wrong to label other countries Eastern European when they, in fact, are not Eastern European.

Did I make my point simple enough for you to understand?

As for Nazi concentration camps, one of my great grandfathers was imprisoned in Salaspils. I guess it is too tempting to resort to ad hominem attacks when your worldview is challenged, you have no counter-arguments, yet you are too weak to accept new information and adjust your views accordingly.

Just point at me, call me a Nazi and make it easier for you, you coward.

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## markod

> The planned Nazi racial policy towards the Baltic peoples has been clearly outlined in: "Abschlußbericht der rassischen Musterungskommission Ostland, 05.11.1942. R90/148, BA."
> The distinction between ethnic Latvians and the people of Latgale has been clearly implied in "Betrifft: Dr. H. Schlau: Rassenpolitische Erwagungen zur Umvolkung der Letten, Schlau, 15.02.1942. R 70/5/89, LVVA."
> There's a lot of information on future Nazi racial policies in the reports by Nazi ethnographic researcher Dr. Georg Leibbrandt and in the reports compiled by Dr. Gunther Holz that were sent to Leibbrandt. They are available in Latvian historical archives.
> The initial Nazi racial policies were radically changed during the course of the occupation of Latvian and Estonian territories, as they had no anthropometric data and had not carried out any extensive ethnographic research beforehand.
> Your quoation speaks of the Baltic peoples as a single entity, while it has been well documented that Lithuanians, Latgalians, Latvians and Estonians were all measured separately, as I explained previously.
> In any case, your original point collapses on itself irrespective of Nazi policies. What we experienced was forced expulsion, mass murder and mass deportations with the intent of Russifying our nation under the hands of the Soviets. The difference between the Nazis and the Soviets is that the Soviets actually tried to do it.
> To say that we should he thankful for that is immoral, evil and only a degenerate would think of something like it.


You are references sources that aren't available anywhere - whatever they contained, they were irrelevant to the policies of the SS. If you are interested in learning what was actually happening in the Baltics, I would recommend Tilman Plath's work on this particular topic. The SS policemen made no difference between Latvians and Slavs, and there was no intention whatsoever to assimilate them. Himmler wanted the Baltic populations gone. He refers to the 'former states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia" in his letters - they considered the extirpation of Baltic national identity a fait accompli.

I assume you pulled these things from some Latvian Nazi site? Get a grip.

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## 50cal

> You are references sources that aren't available anywhere - whatever they contained, they were irrelevant to the policies of the SS. If you are interested in learning what was actually happening in the Baltics, I would recommend Tilman Plath's work on this particular topic. The SS policemen made no difference between Latvians and Slavs, and there was no intention whatsoever to assimilate them. Himmler wanted the Baltic populations gone. He refers to the 'former states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia" in his letters - they considered the extirpation of Baltic national identity a fait accompli.
> 
> I assume you pulled these things from some Latvian Nazi site? Get a grip.


You're obviously not very academically oriented or competent in historical research. BA = Bundesarchiv. Do I need to tell you how to access it? PM me if you're interested.

As for pulling these things out of some Nazi site, the author of this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ezergailis.

Germanization entailed exactly the same thing the Soviets carried out in Latvia during the Soviet occupation (and almost succeeded). Latvians would be wiped out culturally and assimilated. Which is what I already said previously. Assimilation doesn't mean extermination.

I have read correspondences between Rosenberg (who was half Estonian/Latvian himself) and Hitler's representatives regarding the racial policies towards the Baltic peoples. There was never a plan to ethnically cleanse any of the Baltic aboriginal populations.

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## Angela

> There's nothing wrong with being Eastern European. It is wrong to label other countries Eastern European when they, in fact, are not Eastern European.
> 
> Did I make my point simple enough for you to understand?
> 
> As for Nazi concentration camps, one of my great grandfathers was imprisoned in Salaspils. I guess it is too tempting to resort to ad hominem attacks when your worldview is challenged, you have no counter-arguments, yet you are too weak to accept new information and adjust your views accordingly.
> 
> Just point at me, call me a Nazi and make it easier for you, you coward.




You're the one who said that the Nazis distinguished between Slavs, whom we know were all to be exterminated, and Latvians/Estonians, who were capable of being "Germanized", and so clearly were not untermenschen.

The clear implication was that the Germans were just recognizing an obvious difference. In addition to Protestantism, the obvious difference was, what? Genetic? Racial?

Regardless, Eastern European for you clearly means Slavic, and equally clearly you find having your country grouped with them extremely troublesome, perhaps insulting. Is that right? Or are we getting the wrong impression?

If my reference to Latvian guards in Nazi extermination camps is what made you lose your temper, I'm afraid facts are facts. It happened. Don't shoot the messenger. It happened in my country too, if to a lesser extent. At least we don't hold parades to honor these people, however.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject....z/lativia.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Legion

Oh, you may have missed some of our threads dealing with religion and the Nazis. Protestants were much more likely to vote for Hitler than Catholics. Put that in your hat and smoke it. 

Just generally, I'm trying to be more tolerant, so I didn't give you an infraction. If you continue with these over the line insults, however, there will be consequences.

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## markod

> You're obviously not very academically oriented or competent in historical research. BA = Bundesarchiv. Do I need to tell you how to access it? PM me if you're interested.
> 
> As for pulling these things out of some Nazi site, the author of this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ezergailis.
> 
> Germanization entailed exactly the same thing the Soviets carried out in Latvia during the Soviet occupation (and almost succeeded). Latvians would be wiped out culturally and assimilated. Which is what I already said previously. Assimilation doesn't mean extermination.
> 
> I have read correspondences between Rosenberg (who was half Estonian/Latvian himself) and Hitler's representatives regarding the racial policies towards the Baltic peoples. There was never a plan to ethnically cleanse any of the Baltic aboriginal populations.


You might want to produce a single piece of evidence that the Generalplan Ost changed in the years of the Baltic occupation.

The treatment of the general population by the SS shows no evidence of it. There's no indication that Himmler changed his mind, or that Ehlich changed his mind. With Himmler inevitably gaining power the policies outlined in GO would have actually been the better option.

Plans to expel Latvians predate WWII and the Nazis:




> „Kann nicht auch Kurland, einem autonomen Polen vorgelagert, für uns brauchbarwerden als bäuerliches Kolonisationsland, wenn wir die Letten nach Rußland abschieben?Früher hätte man das für phantastisch gehalten, und doch ist es nicht unausführbar.“


There was widespread sentiment among Germans that the Baltic countries were theirs. One can see manifestations of this already in the atrocities committed by the Freikorps long before WWII.

I think you might have read propaganda by the Reichskommissariat - they made prolific attempts to win over native populations especially in the later years of the war. Himmler and the SS never intended to assimilate Latvians. Tilman Plath explicitly mentions this in his book 'Zwischen Schonung und Menschenjagden'. It was Himmler and the SS who were responsible for the ethnic cleansings - and I assure you Himmler wanted Latvians gone. Even Volksdeutsche like Rosenberg himself were considered suspect.

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## 50cal

> Nobody brought up the Hajnal line? St. Petersburg to Trieste, guys.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line


You do realize that Latvia and Estonia are West of the Hajnal line, right? Apart from the Catholic Latgale region, which I don't mind calling Eastern European.

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## 50cal

> You're the one who said that the Nazis distinguished between Slavs, whom we know were all to be exterminated, and Latvians/Estonians, who were capable of being "Germanized", and so clearly were not untermenschen.
> The clear implication was that the Germans were just recognizing an obvious difference. In addition to Protestantism, the obvious difference was, what? Genetic? Racial?
> Regardless, Eastern European for you clearly means Slavic, and equally clearly you find having your country grouped with them extremely troublesome, perhaps insulting. Is that right? Or are we getting the wrong impression?
> If my reference to Latvian guards in Nazi extermination camps is what made you lose your temper, I'm afraid facts are facts. It happened. Don't shoot the messenger. It happened in my country too, if to a lesser extent. At least we don't hold parades to honor these people, however.
> http://www.holocaustresearchproject....z/lativia.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Legion
> Oh, you may have missed some of our threads dealing with religion and the Nazis. Protestants were much more likely to vote for Hitler than Catholics. Put that in your hat and smoke it. 
> Just generally, I'm trying to be more tolerant, so I didn't give you an infraction. If you continue with these over the line insults, however, there will be consequences.


You're not being rational.

I can discuss Nazi racial policies and challenge the view that everyone was about to be mass murdered without being associated with the ideology. Do you not agree?

My entire point was that the Nazis and the Soviets had the same plans in mind for us. Complete assimilation, deportations and the settlement of Russians/Germans in our lands.

How exactly does that make you believe I somehow subscribe to that hogwash? You seem to have forgot the original point markod made.

"I must be thankful to the Russians for trying to wipe us out." This is the statement that started it all. It would be a borderline hate speech offence here.

After that statement was made, I went on to explain why it makes no sense on two levels:
a) the Nazis were not going to exterminate us,
b) the Soviets did try to wipe us out culturally, just like the Nazis would.

I can put it into very simple, vulgar even, terms. Maybe this will help some people understand my point. Somehow I'm a Nazi, because I'm not thankful a rapist beat up another rapist. Both were trying to rape me. I'm definitely a Nazi, because I'm explaining that one of them wasn't a murderer, but a rapist. What you're saying is "oh, I bet you loved being raped by that one guy". No. I didn't. Do you not realize how offensive that is?

Eastern European means Eastern Orthodox. When I think of Eastern Europe, I think of Byzantium. I think of the Hajnal line. I think of East Slavs. I don't consider Czechs or, say, Croatians to be Eastern European. That label makes little sense. I think of late industrialization, I think of late urbanization, I think of high illiteracy rates in the 20th century. I think of illiterate slave-like serfs living off the land and then being herded into living in cities and being taught how to read. I think of track suits and alcoholism, I think of Soviet-styled apartment blocs. I think of spitting on the streets, golden teeth and babushkas. I think of a highly ostentatious sense of style. Of bright, shiny things and gold. Of bright red and bright green and light blue being used at the same time. I think of corruption, authoritarianism and officials riding in fancy SUVs, while others sputter around in Ladas. I think of a very parochial, sexist society. I think of domestic violence. I think of gays being beat up in public. I think of censorship. I think of general poverty. I think of women dressing like prostitutes. 

I don't think they're inferior in any way, but I do believe they have been extremely unlucky in the way the dice has rolled for them. The way history has played out. It has a lot to do with the vast territory, lack of exchange of ideas throughout the last few hundred years, lack of trade, lack of investment and the fact that backwards authoritarianism has helped to keep it all together. But, unfortunately, it is what defines it as a political/cultural region of Europe.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't use this term at all. And, yes, Angela, it is offensive to be labeled 'Eastern European' in such a context. I would be slightly upset if I was called a Southern European as well, but the label 'Eastern Europe' contains a lot more layers to it than geography alone, which makes it especially insulting.

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## markod

> You're not being rational.
> 
> I can discuss Nazi racial policies and challenge the view that everyone was about to be mass murdered without being associated with the ideology. Do you not agree?
> 
> My entire point was that the Nazis and the Soviets had the same plans in mind for us. Complete assimilation, deportations and the settlement of Russians/Germans in our lands.
> 
> How exactly does that make you believe I somehow subscribe to that hogwash? You seem to have forgot the original point markod made.
> 
> "I must be thankful to the Russians for trying to wipe us out." This is the statement that started it all. It would be a borderline hate speech offence here.
> ...


The problem is you're wrong, and you haven't managed to cite a single piece of evidence for your assertions. If you think an ominous report bei Leibbrandt, who was laid off and replaced by one of Himmler's SS men, changed anything about Generalplan Ost you are absolutely delusional. Rosenberg himself was suspected of sympathizing with easterners due to his background, and he had absolutely zero reach. His plans to grant a state to Ukrainians were completely ignored, as was his proposed repatration of Jews in Madagascar or Guyana.

Himmler and Hitler were 100% aligned when it came to the treatment of eastern populations. Himmler and his SS were going to get rid of everyone in the Baltics, and assimilation was never on the table.

Oh and you might not realize it, but all those awful stereotypes might as well apply to your country in many peoples minds. Many indubitably Eastern European countries are better developed than Latvia: Poland, Slovenia, the Czech republic. Everyone considers those countries Eastern European. Latvia's PPP is only barely higher than Russia's, and the former has been an EU member for a while. As for your hatred of Russia, I'd like to remind you of the many achievements in literature, science and the arts that came from this country.These should be enough to call your laughable prejudices into question.

Your citations earlier in the thread only lead back to your reddit account, where you made exactly the same kind of posts (word for word, it seems you just copypasted some of them) which weren't received well. After 3 years you might just want to accept that Latvia is in Eastern Europe and that the Nazis didn't like you.

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## Angela

> You're not being rational.
> I can discuss Nazi racial policies and challenge the view that everyone was about to be mass murdered without being associated with the ideology. Do you not agree?
> My entire point was that the Nazis and the Soviets had the same plans in mind for us. Complete assimilation, deportations and the settlement of Russians/Germans in our lands.
> How exactly does that make you believe I somehow subscribe to that hogwash? You seem to have forgot the original point markod made.
> "I must be thankful to the Russians for trying to wipe us out." This is the statement that started it all. It would be a borderline hate speech offence here.
> After that statement was made, I went on to explain why it makes no sense on two levels:
> a) the Nazis were not going to exterminate us,
> b) the Soviets did try to wipe us out culturally, just like the Nazis would.
> I can put it into very simple, vulgar even, terms. Maybe this will help some people understand my point. Somehow I'm a Nazi, because I'm not thankful a rapist beat up another rapist. Both were trying to rape me. I'm definitely a Nazi, because I'm explaining that one of them wasn't a murderer, but a rapist. What you're saying is "oh, I bet you loved being raped by that one guy". No. I didn't. Do you not realize how offensive that is?
> ...


You probably don't see it, but you've proved my point. Your hysteria over this possible labeling of your country by a quasi "geographical" term is because of your hateful attitudes toward Slavic people. You consider them "lower", less evolved than your people, and presumably Germans etc, and that is why you're so incensed that anyone would associate your country with them. I'm sure Hitler and Himmler would have completely agreed with you. The only thing you don't do is publicly ascribe it to "race". 

Not good enough.

I don't debate people with such hateful viewpoints. 

As to one of your main, what, supporting points, that the Nazis considered you worthy of assimilation, sorry for the disappointment, but you haven't proved it. All you're doing is culling incorrect information from racist Latvian sites written by people who desperately don't want to believe that their beloved Nazis didn't consider them "ubermensch". Pathetic.

I know very well what the hajnal line means and which countries are and are not in it. Why else would I bring it up? I was trying to be objective. That's lost on people like you. Nor, fwiw, do I completely "buy" it, but that's for another discussion.

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## LABERIA

> Deary me, I guess you're not being taught history in Albania.
> The part about million bodies wasn't hyperbole. If you're willing to challenge that point further, I'll give you a fair chance and let you do some research of your own first before schooling you.


Of course we learn history in Albanian schools but to be honest the history of Latvia is not studied as a separate branch. Maybe is wrong but, never heard of any Latvian civilization or Empire. You are free to share some knowledge here and in this way to promote your country. 



> Also:
> a) you should probably educate yourself on how proportional election systems work — having the most votes doesn't mean you won,


I have some knowledge about proportional and majority voting systems. Here we have a mix, a very complex system. 



> b) granting people voting rights is the right thing to do.


The rights of the minorities are granted in our Constitution. 



> As for being careful, we don't have any reason to be careful. I am prepared, though, if you're wondering. I'm keeping my assault rifle and sidegun at home, just like a good deal of my friends are. If need be, we're going to add another million bodies to our lovely soil. It makes it more fertile.


From what i have been able to read here in this thread, during the twentieth century you have been threatened with being extirpated on one hand by the Germans and on the other side by the Russian genocide as you personally admitted and which is seen from the results of the elections.
However, i hope that one day i will have the possibility to visit your beautiful country as a tourist and not obliged by article 5 of NATO, because on that occasion, this map of yours would be ..... a funny game.
I also have a curiosity, why in your map Montenegro is in the Western part of Europe?

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## gidai

Looking on the map, the geometrical map center of gravity of Europe seems to be between north Romania, south-east Poland and western Ukraine. So Romania, Poland, W Ukraine, Slovakia, Hungary seem to be physically no way east, but the center of Europe.

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## ooogra

According to tripsavvy.com/countries-of-eastern-europe-explored-1501460 Eastern European countries are:

RussiaCzech RepublicPolandCroatiaSlovakiaHungaryRomania and MoldovaSerbiaLithuania, Latvia and EstoniaSloveniaBulgariaUkraine and BelarusMontenegro, Bosnia and HerzegovinaAlbania, Kosovo, and Macedonia 
But according to Wikipedia all countries on Balkan peninsula as well as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia are also Eastern European countries. I guess because geographical Europe sweeps from the Iberian peninsula to the Ural Mountains

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## Tutkun Arnaut

> Of course we learn history in Albanian schools but to be honest the history of Latvia is not studied as a separate branch. Maybe is wrong but, never heard of any Latvian civilization or Empire. You are free to share some knowledge here and in this way to promote your country. 
> 
> I have some knowledge about proportional and majority voting systems. Here we have a mix, a very complex system. 
> 
> The rights of the minorities are granted in our Constitution. 
> 
> From what i have been able to read here in this thread, during the twentieth century you have been threatened with being extirpated on one hand by the Germans and on the other side by the Russian genocide as you personally admitted and which is seen from the results of the elections.
> However, i hope that one day i will have the possibility to visit your beautiful country as a tourist and not obliged by article 5 of NATO, because on that occasion, this map of yours would be ..... a funny game.
> I also have a curiosity, why in your map Montenegro is in the Western part of Europe?


countries with orthodox Christianity are close to Islam. So Only Catholic countries are considered western with the exception of Hungary, Finland, Estonia who are not genetically European.
I have heard when Mohamed created Islam in 7 century ad, Christianity of Greeks served as a model, so again Orthodox countries are closer to islam

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## Boreas

Topic has been turned to one of crazy Balkan Topics 

Check United Nations Geoscheme

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## Angela

Half the threads on this site are ruined by Balkan ignorance and hyper-Nationalism. Amazing.

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## gidai

> According to tripsavvy.com/countries-of-eastern-europe-explored-1501460 Eastern European countries are:
> 
> RussiaCzech RepublicPolandCroatiaSlovakiaHungaryRomania and MoldovaSerbiaLithuania, Latvia and EstoniaSloveniaBulgariaUkraine and BelarusMontenegro, Bosnia and HerzegovinaAlbania, Kosovo, and Macedonia 
> But according to Wikipedia all countries on Balkan peninsula as well as Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia are also Eastern European countries. I guess because geographical Europe sweeps from the Iberian peninsula to the Ural Mountains


I think, they should learn a little geography first. :) Then they will understand better.

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## Angela

By all means keep down-voting my posts, "Laberia", and "Gidai", and sundry others for other posts. With your reputation scores it turns out you give me points when you do it, if it mattered to me, which it doesn't. :) Now, if it were from people who aren't a byword for idiocy and everything that's wrong with the Balkans, it would be a different story.

I guess the truth hurts.

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## gidai

> By all means keep down-voting my posts, "Laberia", and "Gidai", and sundry others for other posts. With your reputation scores it turns out you give me points when you do it, if it mattered to me, which it doesn't. :) Now, if it were from people who aren't a byword for idiocy and everything that's wrong with the Balkans, it would be a different story.
> 
> I guess the truth hurts.


So... ;) You still deserve other after this post. I give it to you negatively. Is there a problem?

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## Angela

If they gave out rewards for stupidity...

This thread is closed. Too many complaints.

If members have complaints about other threads ruined by Balkan members please pm me.

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