# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  HarappaWorld Gedmatch, post and compare your admixtures to ancient and contemporary.

## LeBrok

HarappaWord admixtures. Use Gedmatch calculator:
https://www.gedmatch.com
First upload your genome data file to Gedmatch, if you there for the first time.
Go to Analyze Your Data, then click on Admixture (heritage), then select HarappaWorld, continue, type your Kit Number in the window, and continue. In about 15 seconds you should see your results.

*Latest results for Europe and Ancient samples.
*
Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Norway
7
0
9
4
56
0
3
0
0
1
1
25
0
0
0
0
0

Sweden
11
0
8
5
56
0
0
0
0
0
0
28
1
0
0
0
0

Ireland
2
0
12
4
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
33
0
0
0
0
0

Scotland
4
0
10
6
51
0
0
0
0
0
1
31
0
0
0
0
0

Wales
3
0
10
6
50
0
0
0
0
1
0
32
0
0
0
0
0

England
7
0
10
7
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
0
0
0
0
0

Holland-North
4
0
10
6
54
0
0
0
0
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Germany, North
8
0
9
8
53
0
0
0
0
1
0
27
1
0
0
0
0

Germany, South
2
0
9
12
43
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
3
0
0
0
0

Switzerland-French
3
0
8
15
41
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
4
0
0
0
0

French
Harappa
0
9
10
42
0
0
0
0
0
0
36
2
0
0
0
0

South France
hrvclv
0
7
12
39
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
4
0
0
0
0

Portugal
7
0
5
13
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
8
0
1
0
1

Spain
Harappa
1
6
10
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
45
5
0
1
0
0

Basque
4
1
6
1
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
58
1
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Malta
7
0
7
33
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
14
0
1
0
1

Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Saami
4
1
3
0
59
1
18
3
1
2
4
5
0
0
0
0
3

Finland
6
1
4
3
71
0
6
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

Russia
Harappa
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

Belorussia
Harappa
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

Ukraine
Harappa
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
3
0
8
11
56
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
2
0
0
0
0

Czechy
3
1
9
9
52
0
0
0
0
1
0
26
2
0
0
0
0

Slovenia
3
0
7
15
50
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
3
0
0
0
0

Croatia
8
0
7
17
45
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
4
0
0
0
0

Bosnia
2
0
9
21
41
0
1
0
0
1
0
23
5
0
0
0
0

Serbia
1
0
8
20
40
0
1
0
0
1
0
27
4
0
0
0
0

Austria
2
0
7
15
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
30
4
0
0
0
0

Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0

Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0

Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0

Lebanon
7
0
11
45
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
24
0
1
0
0

Samaritans
3
0
7
45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
31
0
2
0
0

Palestine
Harappa
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2

Iran
Harappa
4
27
40
5
1
2
1
1
0
1
5
13
0
0
0
0

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Ancient samples


















WHG




78



1


21






SHG




90



1
2
1
7






EHG


14

76




10








CHG

1
34
51
6
1
1









6

Iran Neolithic

6
63
25








4



2

Levant BA


4
37

1





12
45





Yamnaya


33
7
56




2
1





1

Armenia BA


23
39
19

1

1
1
1
9
5



2

Anatolia LN


9
48
6






27
9





Hungary LN



19
17






56
8





Hungary BA


3
15
46






32
3





Italy BA



11
21
1





61
5



1

Spain MN



19
11






58
12





Spain LN



4
24






63
5



3

Unetice BA


16
6
58




1

19






Ireland BA

1
13
2
53

1


1

27




2

BellBeaker


11
2
54






32






Hungary IA


15
15
44

3


2

21






Sarmatian, IA


25
6
51

4


2
1
11






England IA


11
6
50





1
31




1

Sweden IA


10

61




1

28




1

Andronovo, BA

1
21
3
56

2


1
1
14




1

Greece LN


0
35
4
1





44
13



3

Minoan, average



47
1






39
13





Mycenaean, average

3
39
13






36
9







Here are the source/ancient best matching populations of Harappa admixtures:

Admixtures
Iranian Neolithic
10,000 Years Ago
CHG
13KYA
Natufian
13 KYA
EHG Samara
7.5 KYA
Anatolian EF
8 KYA
WHG
Hungary K01
7.5 KYA
EEF
Stuttgart
7.5 KYA
Yamnaya
Rise 522
4.5 KYA
Notes

S-Indian
6.13
0.62








*Baloch*
*62.71*
36.63

14.33



33.24
Ancient Central Asian, high in Early Iranian Farmer, also present in Steppe

*Caucasian*
24.97
*54.15*
13.98

37.64

30.6
6.58
CHG mostly

*NE-Euro*

3.84

*71.08*
0.86
82.06
7.82
56.02
EHG, mostly WHG/ANE

SE-Asian

0.59








Siberian

0.77








NE-Asian










Papuan
0.35

0.68


0.2




American



6.89



2.46


Beringian



1.7



0.75


*Mediterranean*


27.39

*47.24*
17.44
49.46

Anatolian EF and WHG mix

*SW-Asian*
3.88

*53.62*

14.00

12.01

Mostly Natufian

San
0.18





0.11



E-African


4.33







Pygmy

0.25








W-African
1.78
3.01

0.13
0.27
0.26

0.98



Some observation:
Baloch is maxed out in Iranian Neolithic population, and 1/3 in CHG. Interestingly it exists also in EHG. In EHG it didn't come from INF or CHG because EHG lacks Caucasian admixture. It must be ancient?
Caucasian is highest in Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, and spills over to Natufians and Iranian Early Farmers. But it didn't spill over Caucasus mountain to European Hunter Gatherer. This is rather surprising.
Caucasian admixture is seen first time on other side of Caucasus in Yamnaya sample. Proportions of Baloch and Caucasian in Yamnaya point of its mediation from Iranian Farmers and not from CHG.
South West Asian admixture is highest in Natufian, which is almost not found in CHG or Iranian farmer. This admixture can easily identify Natufian genes.
Mediterranean admixture is highest in Anatolia. It also in part Natufian and in part WHG as we can see it in Hungarian Hunter gatherer at almost 20% level.

Here are the links to ancient samples with Kit Numbers:
http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8462.0
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-6947.html



Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:

Admixtures
Kostenki
Black Sea
36 KYA
Mal'ta boy
Siberia
24 KYA
Notes

S-Indian
13.18
10.13


*Baloch*
12.49
24.09
Early Iranian Farmer admixture mostly

*Caucasian*
*0.00*
*0.00*
CHG mostly

*NE-Euro*
29.02
40.14
EHG, SHG and most of WHG/ANE

SE-Asian
4.28



Siberian
1.75



NE-Asian




Papuan
5.16
0.7


American
3.32
17.71


Beringian
1.43
6.74


*Mediterranean*
18.76
*0.00*
Anatolian EF and WHG mix

*SW-Asian*
5.89
*0.00*
Mostly Natufian, high in semitic countries

San
1.24
0.3


E-African
1.82



Pygmy
0.92
0.19


W-African
0.73




Mal'ta contains only Baloch and NE Euro. Pretty much what was present in EHG, and likewise they miss Mediterranean and SW-Asian.
Kostenki lived north of Black Sea area though much earlier. It contains all the admixtures, even in relation to Natufians, but it is missing Caucasian admixture, same as Mal'ta boy. It seems that Caucasian admixture was a late arrival to the area. These two have even the connection to S-Indian but not to Caucasian!? Where did Caucasian come from? Perhaps it is a young admixture of secluded HGs in Caucasus mountains, separated from Baloch group.


Ethnicity
Dataset
N
C1
C2
C3
C4
C5
C6
C7
C8
C9
C10
C11
C12
C13
C14
C15
C16




S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

basque
hgdp
24
0%
8%
1%
33%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
58%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

belorussian
behar
9
1%
5%
10%
64%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
16%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

bulgarian
yunusbayev
13
0%
5%
28%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

cypriot
behar
12
0%
7%
49%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
19%
17%
0%
0%
0%
0%

finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

french
hgdp
28
0%
9%
10%
42%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
36%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%

hungarian
behar
19
0%
7%
15%
49%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
24%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

italian
hgdp
13
0%
5%
22%
29%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
37%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%

lithuanian
behar
10
0%
7%
5%
72%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
15%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

romanian-a
behar
14
1%
6%
26%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

russian
behar
2
1%
4%
13%
64%
1%
3%
0%
1%
1%
1%
13%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
60%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%

serbian
harappa
1
0%
8%
23%
42%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
22%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

slovenian
xing
25
1%
6%
15%
51%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

spaniard
behar
12
0%
7%
11%
32%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
44%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-istanbul
hodoglugil
20
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

tuscan
1000genomes
11
0%
6%
29%
24%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
32%
8%
0%
0%
0%
0%

ukranian
yunusbayev
20
1%
6%
12%
58%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
17%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%




Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

algeria
0.46
2.32
2.82
0.53
0.32
0.36
0.14
0.25
0.19
0.58
38.88
30.20
0.46
10.30
0.34
11.83

assyrian
0.24
19.37
51.67
1.19
0.05
0.09
0.37
0.42
0.15
0.26
8.17
17.89
0.02
0.04
0.00
0.07

egypt
1.02
2.55
28.48
0.76
0.14
0.26
0.10
0.42
0.23
0.25
16.60
32.75
0.08
11.30
0.54
4.53

egyptian
0.26
3.06
30.48
0.36
0.27
0.14
0.11
0.35
0.19
0.29
12.84
33.11
0.26
12.42
0.15
5.69

iraqi-arab
3.80
18.72
37.81
2.05
0.18
0.92
0.97
0.77
0.17
0.76
8.03
21.89
0.48
2.33
0.57
0.56

iraqi-mandaean
0.84
20.18
47.80
0.00
0.06
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.59
0.60
7.08
22.21
0.00
0.45
0.00
0.00

jordanian
0.59
9.43
38.85
1.22
0.24
0.22
0.50
0.31
0.21
0.43
11.89
28.28
0.15
5.05
0.27
2.36

lebanese
0.54
10.84
41.42
2.87
0.61
0.58
0.61
0.33
0.24
0.21
13.09
23.47
0.19
3.35
0.14
1.49

lebanese-christian
0.36
9.86
49.26
0.10
0.34
0.45
0.32
1.06
0.50
0.72
11.66
22.86
0.66
1.63
0.23
0.00

lebanese-druze
0.76
10.65
49.86
0.35
0.44
0.46
0.20
1.27
0.47
1.07
10.58
20.74
0.54
1.93
0.51
0.17

lebanese-muslim
0.95
10.98
45.29
1.55
0.35
0.98
0.44
1.08
0.65
1.11
10.71
20.83
0.66
3.16
0.60
0.67

libya
0.45
1.09
10.75
0.81
0.37
0.36
0.22
0.27
0.36
0.47
26.54
38.71
0.10
10.73
0.36
8.40

moroccan
0.90
0.30
3.71
0.58
0.07
0.20
0.08
0.21
0.19
0.05
35.13
32.21
0.00
10.61
0.02
15.75

morocco-n
0.70
1.15
1.69
1.13
0.34
0.37
0.10
0.51
0.25
0.49
46.28
28.24
0.29
10.20
0.05
8.20

morocco-s
0.31
0.00
0.05
0.06
0.18
0.32
0.04
0.28
0.04
0.17
36.35
23.01
0.26
12.53
0.40
25.99

mozabite
0.39
0.32
0.56
0.54
0.08
0.61
0.03
0.10
0.03
0.26
39.57
33.74
0.01
10.07
0.00
13.67

palestinian
0.88
7.40
39.30
1.03
0.26
0.14
0.10
0.35
0.19
0.17
11.81
31.00
0.23
4.70
0.19
2.26

saudi
0.86
4.89
26.18
1.16
0.16
0.16
0.16
0.22
0.30
0.16
3.39
57.74
0.31
3.03
0.34
0.93

syrian
1.74
12.18
41.07
2.97
0.28
0.46
0.21
0.22
0.19
0.43
10.07
25.36
0.19
2.64
0.26
1.73

yemenese
2.44
7.85
26.76
0.93
0.46
0.24
0.21
0.43
0.28
0.55
5.40
35.59
0.33
8.24
1.44
8.85

ashkenazi
0.87
5.36
33.87
19.33
0.48
0.49
0.63
0.16
0.19
0.25
24.00
13.60
0.14
0.46
0.15
0.03

ashkenazy-jew
0.69
6.61
34.46
15.63
0.38
0.71
0.40
0.38
0.28
0.28
24.14
14.88
0.16
0.88
0.07
0.07

azerbaijan-jew
0.90
17.34
53.58
1.42
0.30
0.43
0.00
0.19
0.40
0.28
8.01
17.02
0.04
0.08
0.03
0.00

bene-israel-jew
34.93
26.16
21.28
1.09
0.24
0.48
0.32
0.81
0.24
0.83
4.67
8.08
0.11
0.49
0.12
0.16

ethiopian-jew
0.05
0.03
6.46
0.00
0.12
0.10
0.04
0.26
0.08
0.12
4.10
35.35
2.69
50.04
0.48
0.10

georgia-jew
0.34
15.80
52.14
2.36
0.51
0.12
0.04
0.12
0.42
0.30
7.96
19.42
0.00
0.46
0.00
0.00

iranian-jew
0.47
18.93
49.60
0.00
0.50
0.20
0.33
0.15
0.19
0.22
7.06
21.97
0.04
0.26
0.07
0.00

iraq-jew
0.54
17.27
48.77
0.15
0.30
0.00
0.00
0.36
0.13
0.05
8.65
23.57
0.02
0.17
0.02
0.00

morocco-jew
0.86
6.36
32.76
8.33
0.16
0.04
0.06
0.13
0.10
0.15
27.54
20.00
0.22
1.96
0.06
1.26

sephardic-jew
0.79
6.61
36.38
9.22
0.18
0.33
0.09
0.28
0.10
0.15
25.60
18.42
0.10
1.07
0.19
0.49

uzbekistan-jew
1.44
20.59
46.03
3.99
0.22
0.42
0.16
0.70
0.29
0.25
7.41
18.31
0.00
0.19
0.00
0.00

yemen-jew
0.78
1.53
35.81
0.03
0.15
0.07
0.00
0.27
0.14
0.12
5.87
50.72
0.17
4.34
0.03
0.00




Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

abhkasian
0.33
18.49
69.15
7.62
0.40
0.83
0.42
0.26
0.30
0.71
0.67
0.71
0.02
0.02
0.01
0.07

adygei
0.53
18.38
56.60
16.37
0.58
3.10
1.01
0.30
0.53
0.67
1.70
0.23
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

armenian
0.41
17.07
57.29
5.35
0.10
0.29
0.16
0.26
0.22
0.23
8.21
10.40
0.00
0.01
0.00
0.00

armenian
2.12
18.25
46.35
3.32
0.13
0.72
0.92
1.63
0.07
0.62
10.29
14.55
0.57
0.35
0.11
0.00

armenian
0.52
17.65
56.61
2.95
0.13
0.09
0.09
0.27
0.18
0.20
8.40
12.91
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

azeri
3.03
19.73
45.69
7.84
0.04
3.83
1.41
0.29
0.27
1.36
6.36
9.50
0.12
0.13
0.21
0.17

chechen
0.15
22.44
51.00
20.05
0.40
1.89
0.62
0.30
0.91
0.70
0.87
0.67
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

georgian
0.29
17.46
71.97
6.38
0.12
0.33
0.23
0.32
0.24
0.37
1.10
1.16
0.02
0.00
0.00
0.00

georgian
0.05
19.93
62.40
6.08
0.40
0.26
0.79
0.55
0.18
0.86
1.83
6.38
0.22
0.06
0.00
0.00

iranian
3.93
27.42
38.80
4.14
0.47
0.95
0.52
0.39
0.34
0.48
4.98
15.08
0.14
0.81
0.30
1.26

iranian
3.69
27.14
40.66
5.33
0.54
1.80
1.49
0.65
0.39
1.11
5.17
11.35
0.21
0.30
0.14
0.03

kumyk
0.38
21.20
47.50
16.16
0.57
3.73
2.85
0.36
0.67
0.61
2.82
3.12
0.00
0.00
0.03
0.00

kurd
3.01
25.64
41.13
4.69
0.43
1.29
0.58
0.81
0.62
0.87
6.38
13.37
0.38
0.55
0.24
0.00

kurd
0.75
27.90
44.12
4.87
0.30
0.57
0.28
0.39
0.75
0.51
4.86
13.94
0.12
0.32
0.13
0.19

kurd
1.56
26.52
45.34
5.55
0.32
0.49
0.58
0.38
0.38
0.19
5.67
12.81
0.09
0.05
0.07
0.00

lezgin
0.02
28.15
46.69
20.10
0.14
1.05
0.32
0.14
0.92
0.84
0.74
0.88
0.02
0.01
0.00
0.00

stalskoe
0.07
23.71
40.73
20.55
1.65
2.76
0.81
0.59
1.56
1.34
3.97
1.55
0.20
0.07
0.24
0.21

urkarah
0.27
27.90
43.17
24.08
0.45
1.05
0.00
0.39
1.10
0.90
0.11
0.29
0.06
0.06
0.12
0.05

north-ossetian
0.28
19.35
45.41
13.79
0.97
5.35
3.10
1.41
1.32
0.57
4.12
3.08
0.51
0.00
0.75
0.00

north-ossetian
0.10
18.43
56.38
14.71
0.27
3.91
2.92
0.39
0.55
1.14
1.08
0.10
0.01
0.01
0.00
0.00



Maximums in modern populations:
Ethnicity
Dataset

S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

paniya
chaubey
3
*84%*
0%
3%
0%
4%
2%
2%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

brahui
hgdp
25
12%
*58%*
12%
2%
1%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
10%
0%
1%
0%
1%

georgian
behar
20
0%
17%
*72%*
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
*80%*
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

iban
xing
25
5%
0%
0%
0%
*87%*
4%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

nganassan
rasmussen
12
0%
1%
1%
3%
0%
*89%*
1%
0%
0%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

japanese
1000genomes
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
*99%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

papuan
hgdp
17
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

colombian
hgdp
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

chukchi
rasmussen
15
0%
0%
1%
5%
0%
12%
0%
0%
1%
*80%*
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*60%*
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%

saudi
behar
20
1%
5%
26%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
*58%*
0%
3%
0%
1%

san
hgdp
6
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%

gumuz
pagani
18
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
1%
*93%*
3%
0%

mbutipygmy
hgdp
13
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%

yoruba
1000genomes
5
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%

*



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dd4/edit#gid=0

----------


## Goga

> Interesting Iran_Recent had elevated NE Euro and more Caucasian. Can you run Neolithic Iranian through this calculator?


Nothing special. In general Kurds from Northern Kurdistan (Turkish occupied) score also more 'Caucasian' and 'NE Euro' than me or Kurds from South East Kurdistan (Iran) in general.


Native Caucasian speakers (like Adygeans) have also more 'Caucasian' and 'NE Euro' than Iranians.


So, Iran_Recent is more shifted toward Caucasus, while Southern Kurds / modern Iranians are slightly more shifted toward the Iranian Plateau.

----------


## Tomenable

> Interesting Iran_Recent had elevated NE Euro and more Caucasian. Can you run Neolithic Iranian through this calculator?


I couldn't find that Neolithic Iranian on GEDmatch, but I found the Chalcolithic one (kit number M124870):

HarappaWorld:

*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Irn1400s:*
*IrnCopperAge*
*IrnNeolithic*

Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
?

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
?

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
?

NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
?

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
?

S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
?

Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
?

W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
?

SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
?

Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
?

NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
?

Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
?

American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
?

San
0,63
-
-
-
-
?

E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
?

Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
?

----------


## LeBrok

> I couldn't find that Neolithic Iranian on GEDmatch, but I found the Chalcolithic one (kit number M124870):
> 
> HarappaWorld:
> 
> *Admixture:*
> *Zoran:*
> *Arya:*
> *Goga:*
> *Irn1400s:*
> ...


Wow, now it is getting interesting. Copper Age guy has fewer admixtures. He/she is of much "purer" origin. Mainly two sources, Caucasus and Baloch. Is Baloch same as Gedrosia?
Could it be run by something showing Yamnaya/Afansievo or Step admixtures?

NE Euro and Mediterranean is missing completely. When did it come to The middle East? Greek/Roman/Anatolian/Turkic conquests?
Half of Mediterranean admixture in this run could contain Semitic/Arabic admixture, and some in SW Asian I suppose.

It'd be interesting to check other guys from the area to see what was native and what came with Steppe invasion of IEs, or source of Gedrosia. Even to check if Steppe theory holds water.
Mesolithic guys from Iran, Caucasus and Yamnaya. Whoever they have in this calculator, please.

----------


## Angela

He already had almost 11% SW Asian, and modern people have only 13-15%. 

It's the North East European and Mediterranean that he's missing. The North East European could have come with steppe people in the Bronze or even the Iron Age, and so could the little bit of Mediterranean as well perhaps. The Srubnaya, Andronovo type people were, what, 40% Middle Neolithic as well as EHG?

----------


## LeBrok

> He already had almost 11% SW Asian, and modern people have only 13-15%. 
> 
> It's the North East European and Mediterranean that he's missing. The North East European could have come with steppe people in the Bronze or even the Iron Age, and so could the little bit of Mediterranean as well perhaps. The Srubnaya, Andronovo type people were, what, 40% Middle Neolithic as well as EHG?


 Good point angela NE European could have been connected to the Steppe admixture. In this case this copper age Iranian could have been Iranian Neolithic Farmer like before Steppe invasion.

----------


## Tomenable

I share 701 matching segments with RISE150 and 921 with BR2.

Numbers such as 701 - 921 matching segments seem to be a lot.

*I made a similar comparison with ancient and modern Iranians:*

Kit T637158 (Medieval Iranian) shares 758 segments with a modern Iranian.

Kit M124870 (Copper Age Iranian) shares 597 segments with a modern Iranian.

Finally, T637158 and M124870 share 380 matching segments with each other.

Criteria of comparison were the same in each case:




> Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 25 SNPs
> Mismatch-bunching Limit = 25 SNPs
> Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

----------


## Goga

> It seems that there was a some kind of a migration from the Balkans into the western parts of the Iranian Plateau, and Aryans (West Iranian like the Medes and Persians) mixed a little bit with those people. Maybe from the Indo-European West Anatolians like the Hittites and Phrygia or something???
> 
> 
> Y-DNA hg. I2a and E-V13 are not native to Iranian/Aryans otherwise there would be some Y-DNA hg. I2a and E-V13 in BMAC and SouthCentral Asia or even in India.


Has to be either from the Lydians who lived on the western side of the Aryan Medes or has to be from the East Iranized Scythians who lived just north of the first Aryan mighty Median Empire. Or both, from Lydians AND Scythians. Althought we have DNA of Alano-Sarmatians, but they were not I2a & E-V13, BUT J1, J2, G2a, R1a-Z93 which are very common among the modern day Aryan people (Kurds & Persians) of the western Iranian Plateau




media.gif




Median-Empire-580x348.jpg

http://ancientworldlibrary.com/throu...april-3-5-2016

----------


## Tomenable

*LeBrok*, you have a lot of Hindu Kush as well, and your wife too.

Interesting, where did it come from? Why do we have so much?




> How did Hindu Kush got to Poland? With Gypsies?


Check how much of *"South India"* do you have in HarappaWorld.

Someone with Gypsy ancestry should score a lot of South India.

On the other hand, "Hindu Kush" is more similar to *"Baloch"*.

My results:

----------


## LeBrok

> *LeBrok*, you have a lot of Hindu Kush as well, and your wife too.
> 
> Interesting, where did it come from? Why do we have so much?
> 
> 
> 
> Check how much of *"South India"* do you have in HarappaWorld.
> 
> Someone with Gypsy ancestry should score a lot of South India.
> ...


Population


S-Indian
0.62

Baloch
7.47

Caucasian
10.05

NE-Euro
57.28

SE-Asian
0.54

Siberian
1.22

NE-Asian
0.35

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
0.07

Mediterranean
21.53

SW-Asian
0.86

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-



Nothing extraordinary here, though I have bunch of many small admixtures. Some of my far ancestors have been around, lol.

----------


## Tomenable

This 0,62 South Indian is not enough for Gypsy ancestors. At least not anything recent. 

Gypsies most probably have some "Hindu Kush", but they have even more of S-Indian.




> It is too elevated to be explained with few Gypsies in Poland


Maybe it is from Armenians in Poland ???

You are from southern regions (Cracow and Galicia, right?) so maybe "Hindu Kush" is higher there.




> Surprisingly, for a guy who loves HGs, your Farmer/Near Eastern is the highest, Tomenable. ;)


Maybe that's why I love HGs, lol. ;)




> The "average" group of Poles was really high on WHG and Steppe and low on Farmer. *I wonder what region they were from?*


Perhaps from North-Eastern Poland? It is Davidski's calculator, so he probably chose the sample.

----------


## LeBrok

How do you check who from ancient samples they have in Gedmatch calculator? I would like to see Yamnaya folks, Afansievo, and Samara HGs in K15.

----------


## Goga

> Maybe it is from Armenians in Poland ???
> 
> You are from southern regions (Cracow and Galicia, right?) so maybe "Hindu Kush" is higher there.


Armenians are also receivers and not donors of this component. Armenians don't have as much of the so called 'Gedrosia' "Hindu Kush" component as Iranians and native people of the Iranian Plateau.


from Dodecad K12b results Armenians score between 15 - 178 % of Gedrosian.


My Dodecad K12b results :


*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
37.76

2
Gedrosia
28.04

3
Southwest_Asian
14.71

4
Atlantic_Med
8.76

5
North_European
4.87

6
South_Asian
2.69

7
Northwest_African
1.76

8
Siberian
0.88

9
Southeast_Asian
0.32

10
East_Asian
0.21




from Spreadsheet for Dodecad K12b

Population
Gedrosia
Siberian
Northwest_Africa
Southeast_Asia
Atlantic_Med
North_Europe
South_Asia
East_Africa
Southwest_Asia
East_Asia
Caucasus
Sub_Sahara

Armenian
16.82
0.00
0.00
0.00
10.31
3.00
0.00
0.00
14.01
0.00
55.86
0.00

Armenians
15.80
0.00
0.00
0.00
9.80
4.50
0.20
0.00
9.90
0.00
59.80
0.00

Armenians_15
18.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
8.80
3.40
0.40
0.00
13.70
0.00
55.70
0.00

----------


## LeBrok

HarappaWorld:
Added late Afanasevo Culture samples Rise 509, or (early Andronovo?).

*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Irn1400s:*
*IrnCopperAge*
*Afansevo
Rise 509*

Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-

NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89

S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-

Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64

W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72

SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-

Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45

NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-

Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-

American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40

San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-

E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-

Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-



Interestingly Rise 509 has a lot of Baloch, but almost no Caucasian. Perhaps the Baloch is same as Early Neolithic Iranian Farmer, who migrated to the Steppe. 
It has a lot of Euro at 63%. In this case, if Rise 509 is a good proxy of IE who invaded South, the ratio would need to be 1 invader to 9 locals. In order to leave only 7% of NE Euro in ancient Iranian (Iran1400).

----------


## LeBrok

[QUOTE=LeBrok;490734]HarappaWorld:
Added Catacomb Culture (post Yamanya) Rise 552, ~2000 BC, just North of Caucasus. It has more Caucasian and Baloch. I'm starting to think that Caucasian admixture in this run is the same as Anatolian/Levant Neolithic and Baloch is the Iranian Neolithic. NE European is all the WHG/ANE from hunter gatherers. Well, all very roughly counted, I should add.

*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Irn1400s:*
*IrnCopperAge*
*Afansevo
Rise 509*
*Catacomb
Rise 552*

Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
6.58

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
33.24

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-


NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
56.02

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89


S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.95

SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45
0.75

NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-


Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-


American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40
2.46

San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-


E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-


Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

----------


## LeBrok

HarappaWorld:
Added mine and extra description.
*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Irn1400s:*
*IrnCopperAge*
*Afansevo
Rise 509*
*Catacomb
Rise 552*
Modern
Polish


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
6.58
10.05
Part of EEF

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
33.24
7.47
Iranian Neolithic

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-

0.86
Semitic?

NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
56.02
57.25
EHG

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89

21.53
Part of EEF

S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-

0.62


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64

1.22


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.95



SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-

0.54


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45
0.75
0.07


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-




Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-




American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40
2.46



San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-




E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-




Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

----------


## Goga

> HarappaWorld:
> Added late Afanasevo Culture samples Rise 509, or (early Andronovo?).
> 
> Interestingly Rise 509 has a lot of Baloch, but almost no Caucasian. Perhaps the Baloch is same as Early Neolithic Iranian Farmer, who migrated to the Steppe. 
> It has a lot of Euro at 63%. In this case, if Rise 509 is a good proxy of IE who invaded South, the ratio would need to be 1 invader to 9 locals. In order to leave only 7% of NE Euro in ancient Iranian (Iran1400).


Nice try.


*It was actually the other way around.*


proto-East Iranians from proto-BMAC culture from SouthCentral Asia went to the Eastern Steppes and 'Iranized' the natives of the Andronovo horizon. 



Caucasian and Baloch components were brought into the Yamnaya Horzion by PIE folks from Maykop/Leyla Tepe. Those PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe were folks with 2 main components: Caucasian and Baloch. Than Yamnaya invaded Europe and brought Baloch/Gedrosia component into Europe.


Afansevo *can't* be directly from Yamnaya Horizon (second stage of PIE) because there is not much of Caucasian auDNA there.


That means that there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes who Indo-Europized ( / Iranized ) native people of the Steppes. 


By the time when Iranians from proto-BMAC invaded the Steppes, the Eastern Steppes were not Indo-European yet because there was not enough Caucasian auDNA yet, while in Yamnaya was a lot Caucasian auDNA.



Baloch components is true PIE and later even an Iranian (Aryan) component.

----------


## Goga

" _Hints of a northward movement from the Southern Central Asian oases are also in Ferghana, a region rich in tin deposits, because there has been found a store of bronze and silver objects of southern origin (op. cit., pp.243-244). It is remarkable that Bactrian camels are among the animals bred in the Andronovo cultures succeeding Sintashta culture (they are dated 1800-1000 BC), and camels were domesticated in Turkmenistan at least in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC (see here); they had an Indo-Iranian name (*uštra-), which was borrowed into Finno-Ugric and Turkic languages._ "

http://new-indology.blogspot.nl/2013...spectives.html

----------


## LeBrok

> Nice.
> 
> It was the other way.
> 
> proto-East Iranians Iranians from proto-BMAC culture from South Central Asia went to the Eastern Steppes and 'Iranized' the natives of the Andronovo horizon.


We don't have genetic from this place, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.





> Caucasian and Baloch components were brought into the Yamnaya Horzion by PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe. Those PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe were folks with 2 main components: Caucasian and Baloch.


Baloch yes, we see lots of it in the Steppe, but Caucasian is barely trickling. It look like Iranian Farmers were mostly Baloch admixtures went to the Steppe. Caucasian, which I'm guessing is like Levant Neolithic here, came later and slowly trickled down through Caucasus. Look at Rise samples, not much Caucasian there. It means that at the time farmers of Maykop crosse the mountains they had mostly Baloch admixture and nothing else.




> Afansevo can't be directly from Yamnaya Horizon (second stage of PIE) becasue there is not much of Caucasian auDNA there.


Caucasian in this run is not Caucasian you expect. I think it must be Anatolian Neolithic, which came later to this area.





> That means that there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes who Indo-Europized ( / Iranized ) native people of the Steppes.


 There was, nobody can deny it. In this run it shows in Baloch admixture in steppe people.

----------


## LeBrok

HarappaWorld:
Added Sintashta, which is a better fit for Steppe invasion of South with their R1a Z-93 marker.
*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Irn1400s:*
*IrnCopperAge*
*Afansevo
Rise 509*
*Sintashta
Rise 395*
Modern
Polish


Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
45,47
49,91
2.03
0.00
10.05
Part of EEF

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
26,89
37,82
29.56
17.64
7.47
Iranian Neolithic

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
13,13
10,88
-

0.86
Semitic?

NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
7,27
-
63.24
58.44
57.25
EHG

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
4,87
-
1.89
23.06
21.53
Part of EEF

S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
1,23
1,05
-

0.62


Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0,65
-
1.64

1.22


W-African
-
-
-
0,2
0,33
0.72
0.82



SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0,18
-
-

0.54


Beringian
-
0,26
-
0,12
-
1.45

0.07


NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
-
-
-




Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
-
-
-




American
0,67
-
0,98
-
-
1.40




San
0,63
-
-
-
-
-




E-African
0,07
0,14
-
-
-
-




Pygmy
-
-
-
-
-
-

----------


## Goga

> We don't have genetic from this place, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.
> 
> 
> Baloch yes, we see lots of it in the Steppe, but Caucasian is barely trickling. It look like Iranian Farmers were mostly Baloch admixtures went to the Steppe. Caucasian, which I'm guessing is like Levant Neolithic here, came later and slowly trickled down through Caucasus. Look at Rise samples, not much Caucasian there. It means that at the time farmers of Maykop crosse the mountains they had mostly Baloch admixture and nothing else.
> 
> Caucasian in this run is not Caucasian you expect. I think it must be Anatolian Neolithic, which came later to this area.
> 
> 
> There was, nobody can deny it. In this run it shows in Baloch admixture in steppe people.


No, the first (original) wave of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe who invaded and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were partly Caucasian, partly Baloch folks. Native Caucasian auDNA is actually bordering the Yamnaya Horizon. So it has be that a lot Caucasian auDNA entered the Yamnaya with the PIE. Even due to some geneflow from Caucasus there would be alot Caucasian component in Yamnaya Horzion. There is more Caucasians auDNA in Northern Caucasus (*CHG* !!!), than Baloch compotent.

So, I'm not sure about ratio between Caucasus-Baloch of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe that entered the Yamnaya Horizon. It could be that at that time the ration of original PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe was in favor of Baloch component.

Caucasian component in Northern Caucasus is from CHG!!!

I'm sure that Y-DNA haplogroups R1a* and R1b* were correlated with that Baloch component.


Afanasevo culture is older than Sintashta culture. That's why I take Afanasevo as example.

Afanasevo = 2.03 % Caucasian and 25.56 % Baloch. 

100 / (2.03 + 29.56 ) = 3.166
2.03 x 3.166 = 6.43
29.56 x 3.166 = 93.57

*East* Iranians from BMAC who invaded the Steppes and Iranized the Andronovo Horizion were for about 6.43 % Caucasian and 93.57 % Baloch, that makes sense since BMAC was located not far from Gedrosia/Hindu Kush area.

The ratio between Caucasian/Baloch of West Iranian folks like the Medes and Persians was much more balanced..

----------


## Goga

> HarappaWorld:
> Added Sintashta, which is a better fit for Steppe invasion of South with their R1a Z-93 marker.


It is even chronologically impossible!!

proto-*East* Iranian BMAC culture from the Iranian Plateau is OLDER than Sintashta..

----------


## Goga

about BMAC (Oxus culture) and Kopet-Dag. Kopet-Dag is an ancient prehistoric village located within BMAC and predate all Steppe Cultures by *THOUSANDS* of years!!!


" _The_ *ancient Oxus culture*_ may have arisen at sites like Anau, a settlement at the base of the Kopet-Dag mountains, which dates back to_ *6500 B.C.

*_Pumpelly clung to his vision of an early civilization that thrived along the rivers flowing down from the Kopet-Dag. Years later, Soviet archaeologists working along the mountain foothills confirmed that as early as 6500 B.C., small bands of people were living in the Kopet-Dag, raising wheat and barley and grazing their sheep and goats on the mountains' foothills and slopes. That's a few thousand years after these grains were domesticated in the Near East but much earlier than most researchers had thought likely, supporting Pumpelly's view that Central Asian culture developed much sooner than commonly believed.

_
_By 3000 B.C., the people of the Kopet-Dag had organized into walled towns. They used carts drawn by domesticated animals, and their pottery resembles the kind later found in Gonur. Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture._ "





abc.jpg

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov...d-turkmenistan

----------


## Goga

> _Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture._ "
> 
> 
> http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov...d-turkmenistan


And it is a FACT that ARYANS (proto-*East* Iranian speakers) who invaded INDIA came from BMAC area. They did not come from the Steppes, but from BMAC. And BMAC predate the Indo-Europized / Iranized cultures in the Steppes by THOUSANDS of years. So, those Aryans from BMAC who invaded India belonged mostly to a Caucasian-Baloch (Iranid / Irano-Afghano) race at the first place...

----------


## LeBrok

> No, the first (original) wave of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe who invaded and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were partly Caucasian, partly Baloch folks. Native Caucasian auDNA is actually bordering the Yamnaya Horizon. So it has be that a lot Caucasian auDNA entered the Yamnaya with the PIE. Even due to some geneflow from Caucasus there would be alot Caucasian component in Yamnaya Horzion. There is more Caucasians auDNA in Northern Caucasus (*CHG* !!!), than Baloch compotent.


You are confusing Caucasian region with Caucasian admixture in this run. *It is not what usually we call Caucasian, like per Caucasian Hunter Gatherer.* In this run it seems Caucasian is really Anatolian Neolithic.
What is the True Caucasian is actually called Baloch here, which is Iranian Neolithic and CHG, both almost identical anyway. *So Baloch is True Caucasian, and what is called Caucasian is Anatolian Neolithic.*



> So, I'm not sure about ratio between Caucasus-Baloch of PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe that entered the Yamnaya Horizon. It could be that at that time the ration of original PIE from Maykop/Leyla Tepe was in favor of Baloch component.


 We can only say that Maykop brought part of PIE, especially farming technology. We don't know their language and religion.






> Caucasian component in Northern Caucasus is from CHG!!!


Again, it is called Baloch here, and it is as CHG as Iranian Neolithic.




> I'm sure that Y-DNA haplogroups R1a* and R1b* were correlated with that Baloch component.


Unless my R1b clade was found in Iran. ;)





> Afanasevo culture is older than Sintashta culture. That's why I take Afanasevo as example.
> 
> Afanasevo = 2.03 % Caucasian and 25.56 % Baloch.





We just need to find genome of CHG or Iranian Neolithic guy in Gedmatch to solve the rest of the puzzle.

----------


## LeBrok

> about BMAC (Oxus culture) and Kopet-Dag. Kopet-Dag is an ancient prehistoric village located within BMAC and predate all Steppe Cultures by *THOUSANDS* of years!!!
> 
> 
> " _The_ *ancient Oxus culture*_ may have arisen at sites like Anau, a settlement at the base of the Kopet-Dag mountains, which dates back to_ *6500 B.C.
> 
> *_Pumpelly clung to his vision of an early civilization that thrived along the rivers flowing down from the Kopet-Dag. Years later, Soviet archaeologists working along the mountain foothills confirmed that as early as 6500 B.C., small bands of people were living in the Kopet-Dag, raising wheat and barley and grazing their sheep and goats on the mountains' foothills and slopes. That's a few thousand years after these grains were domesticated in the Near East but much earlier than most researchers had thought likely, supporting Pumpelly's view that Central Asian culture developed much sooner than commonly believed.
> 
> _
> _By 3000 B.C., the people of the Kopet-Dag had organized into walled towns. They used carts drawn by domesticated animals, and their pottery resembles the kind later found in Gonur. Many Soviet and Western archaeologists suspect that the Oxus civilization—at least in Margiana, the region in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan—evolved from this Kopet-Dag culture._ "
> ...


Good, so farmers lived there in organized settlements. Then the army of horsemen came from north and conquered them like many other farming civilizations. You know, we have good records how an army of horsemen conquered half the world not that far back. The world of farmers with much bigger populations and money. They were called Mongols. Remember?

----------


## Goga

> You are confusing Caucasian region with Caucasian admixture in this run. *It is not what usually we call Caucasian, like per Caucasian Hunter Gatherer.* In this run it seems Caucasian is really Anatolian Neolithic.
> What is the True Caucasian is actually called Baloch here, which is Iranian Neolithic and CHG, both almost identical anyway. *So Baloch is True Caucasian, and what is called Caucasian is Anatolian Neolithic.*
>  We can only say that Maykop brought part of PIE, especially farming technology. We don't know their language and religion.
> 
> 
> Again, it is called Baloch here, and it is as CHG as Iranian Neolithic.
> 
> Unless my R1b clade was found in Iran. ;)
> 
> ...


You are wrong big time. Now you revealed yourself that you understand anything about it. What you are saying is nothing but bull. 


You are confused big time. CHG and Iranian Neolithic folks were 2 separate groups. Iosif Lazaridis study proved that. Maybe they were related to each other but they were separated. Caucasian component is at it's highest in Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component peaks in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component is highly related to CHG, period.


Anatolian farmers could have both Caucasian + Mediterranean component.

SW_Asian component is related to the Levant farmers, while Mediterranean component could be related to both of them, Levant & Anatolian Farmer.


Again you are very confused. Yamnaya Horizon folks were partly West Asian in nature and partly native (Indo-Europized) Steppe folks. West Asian PIE folks Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon. It has been proven by DNA, archeology etc..


*They found some crazy ancient R1b in West Asia (Armenia, next to Iran) and those R1b lineages were ancestral to the Yamnaya R1b lineages.* *FACT**!!!*


In Iran they found some ancient Y-DNA P1 haplogroups. Where is P1 there has to be R1* and R2* haplogroups. Like, where is smoke there is fire. It is impossible that R1* evolved far way from P1.

----------


## Goga

double post

----------


## Goga

> Good, so farmers lived there in organized settlements. Then the army of horsemen came from north and conquered them like many other farming civilizations. You know, we have good records how an army of horsemen conquered half the world not that far back. The world of farmers with much bigger populations and money. They were called Mongols. Remember?


LMAO, you don't know what you are talking about. Well, if farmers in organized settlements were conquered how is it possible that they left so much of their DNA in the Steppes? There is so much of Iranian DNA in the Steppes that is obvious that the Steppe folks were invaded and conquered by the Iranians from the Iranian Plateau. They were only linguistically and culturally Iranized, but not fully genetically Iranizied, since they still kept for 66% of their native Steppe ancestry. Iranians/Aryans from BMAC left only 30% of their Aryan DNA in the Steppes and were later assimilated and their Aryan DNA was after some time diluted in the Steppes


It were the highly ADVANCED mighty Aryans (East Iranian speakers) from the (proto-)BMAC (Iranian Plateau) who brought some civilization into the Steppes. There are huge archeological evidences for that!


Those who were conquered by the Mongols, didn't left much of their genetic traces *IN* Mongolia, lol. *Is there Arabian/Egyptian DNA in Mongolia*??? But there IS Iranian DNA in the Steppes.


At that time there was MUCH MORE Iranian (Aryan) DNA in the Steppes (more than 30% !!), than vice versa (Steppes DNA in Iran). And now tell me, *who conquered who*? Who was just a passive receiver of DNA and who was the real active DONOR of the conquest DNA? 


Y-DNA R1a entered the Steppes together with the MASSIVE amount of the Iranian auDNA. If R1a was not related to the Iranian auDNA (Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush), then what haplogorup could bring more than 30% of Iranian DNA in the Steppes? It has to be only R1a, there are no other options and haplogroup which we can take into consideration.



East Iranias / East Aryans were so highly sexual active in their conquest of the Steppes, that they left more that 30% of their DNA in the Steppes and R1a lineages with those more than 30% of their auDNA, this is a fact. This was unprecedented, even the Mongols couldn't do that thousands of years after them...

----------


## LeBrok

> You are wrong big time. Now you revealed yourself that you understand anything about it. What you are saying is nothing but bull. 
> 
> 
> You are confused big time. CHG and Iranian Neolithic folks were 2 separate groups. Iosif Lazaridis study proved that. Maybe they were related to each other but they were separated. Caucasian component is at it's highest in Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component peaks in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasian component is highly related to CHG, period.
> 
> 
> Anatolian farmers could have both Caucasian + Mediterranean component.
> 
> SW_Asian component is related to the Levant farmers, while Mediterranean component could be related to both of them, Levant & Anatolian Farmer.
> ...


Put it finally through your thick skull that what is called Caucasian or South-West Asian in Lazaridis paper is not the same as the Caucasian or South-West Asian in this calculator. These are not universal terms!
How could you explain lack of S-W Asian and low level of Caucasian in Yamnaya/Catacomb Rise 552! Same goes to Afansievo and Sintashta. Can you see it, or you just pretend you can read and understand these calculator runs?

----------


## LeBrok

> LMAO, you don't know what you are talking about. Well, if farmers in organized settlements were conquered how is it possible that they left so much of their DNA in the Steppes? There is so much of Iranian DNA in the Steppes that is obvious that the Steppe folks were invaded and conquered by the Iranians from the Iranian Plateau. They were only linguistically and culturally Iranized, but not fully genetically Iranizied, since they still kept for 66% of their native Steppe ancestry. Iranians/Aryans from BMAC left only 30% of their Aryan DNA in the Steppes and were later assimilated and their Aryan DNA was after some time diluted in the Steppes
> 
> 
> It were the highly ADVANCED mighty Aryans (East Iranian speakers) from the (proto-)BMAC (Iranian Plateau) who brought some civilization into the Steppes. There are huge archeological evidences for that!
> 
> 
> Those who were conquered by the Mongols, didn't left much of their genetic traces *IN* Mongolia, lol. *Is there Arabian/Egyptian DNA in Mongolia*??? But there IS Iranian DNA in the Steppes.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh you didn't get how it went yet? We have all the puzzle pieces in place, well almost. Have a listen:
First Iranian Farmers went through Caucasus and settled in the Steppe around European Hunter Gatherers. Iranian Farmers brought Caucasus admixture (here called Baloch) and HGs where EHG kind (here as NE Europeans) They mixed together, became herders/farmers and domesticated horses. Their genetic example here is Rise 552, basically half NE European and half Baloch+Caucasian. Once they learned how to ride horses and move across the steppe they started spreading and conquering. That's how they brought Baloch-Caucasian to the rest of Asia and Europe. They also migrated and conquered South Asia as Indo-Aryans. They are the cause of NE European admixture in Iran today and since the Bronze Age. Check Iran1400 sample, having over 7% of it. For comparison check the Copper Age Iranian sample. It doesn't have NE European at all! Why is that? That's because Indo-Aryan invaded Iran during Bronze Age. So, it makes a lot of sense that the copper/neolithic Iranian guy couldn't have NE European admixture yet. He live before the invasion.
I hope it will help you imagine how it all went down.

----------


## Goga

> Put it finally through your thick skull that what is called Caucasian or South-West Asian in Lazaridis paper is not the same as the Caucasian or South-West Asian in this calculator. These are not universal terms!
> How could you explain lack of S-W Asian and low level of Caucasian in Yamnaya/Catacomb Rise 552! Same goes to Afansievo and Sintashta. Can you see it, or you just pretend you can read and understand these calculator runs?


OMG. You don't understand anything.

If Afansievo and Sintashta are not the same as Yamnaya, then it is a great evidence that Yamnaya never Indo-Europized Afansievo & Sintashta. Afansievo & Sintashta were NEVER directly Indo-Europized by the Maykop/Leyla Tepe folks. It was Yamnaya that was DIRECTLY Indo-Europized by Maykop/Leyla Tepe.


And Yamnaya was Indo-Europized by people from Leyla-Tepe and not by people from Northern Caucasus.


And we are using just 1 calculator, maybe other calculators would be better and will tell a different story! Dont rely on just 1 calculator!


What don't you understand??


According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld

Abhkasian (Northern Caucasians) have 69.15 % Caucasian and 18.49 % Baloch.





abc.jpg


Are you saying that Abhkasians who live in the NORHTERN Caucasus are ONLY 18.49% CHG and 69.15 % Anatolian Farmers. This is definitely a very stupid thing to say.


*Sindhi* from INDIA !!! score only 9.68 % Caucasian and 46.18 % Baloch? Are you saying that Sindhi from INDIA are MORE CHG than Abhkasians from NORHTERN Caucasus?


Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi from India : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


So according to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. This is crazy..


Are you from real??

----------


## Fire Haired14

Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.

----------


## LeBrok

> OMG. You don't understand anything.
> 
> If Afansievo and Sintashta are not the same as Yamnaya, then it is a great evidence that Yamnaya never Indo-Europized Afansievo & Sintashta.
> 
> 
> What don't you understand??
> 
> 
> According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld
> ...


Never mind Sintashta.

Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50% not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?

----------


## LeBrok

> Goga, *Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians* just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.


I'm so regretting we don't have Iranian Neolithic guy in this calculator. Things would become obvious even for Goga.

----------


## Goga

> Oh you didn't get how it went yet? We have all the puzzle pieces in place, well almost. Have a listen:
> First Iranian Farmers went through Caucasus and settled in the Steppe around European Hunter Gatherers. Iranian Farmers brought Caucasus admixture (here called Baloch) and HGs where EHG kind (here as NE Europeans) They mixed together, became herders/farmers and domesticated horses. Their genetic example here is Rise 552, basically half NE European and half Baloch+Caucasian. Once they learned how to ride horses and move across the steppe they started spreading and conquering. That's how they brought Baloch-Caucasian to the rest of Asia and Europe. They also migrated and conquered South Asia as Indo-Aryans. They are the cause of NE European admixture in Iran today and since the Bronze Age. Check Iran1400 sample, having over 7% of it. For comparison check the Copper Age Iranian sample. It doesn't have NE European at all! Why is that? That's because Indo-Aryan invaded Iran during Bronze Age. So, it makes a lot of sense that the copper/neolithic Iranian guy couldn't have NE European admixture yet. He live before the invasion.
> I hope it will help you imagine how it all went down.


Only in YOUR dreams it was this way? It is a wishful thinking of the Eurocentric Europeans and wannabe Aryans and racist who can handle the real truth.

What happened was NOT that difficult. It was much simpler. 


Leyla Tepe Proto-Indo-Europeans migrated into the Yamnaya Horzin from the Maykop culture. They Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks of the Steppes. Than those Indo-Europized Yamnaaya folks invaded Europe.



Afansievo, Sintashta etc. never got Indo-Eurpized by Yamnaya folks. Native Afansievo / Sintashta folks were not Indo-Europeans at all, and definately not Iranian, not by language, not by culture and not by race.


Only LATER the Eastern Steppes cultures were Iranized by Aryans from the Iranian Plateau/BMAC. Aryans of BMAC/Iranian Plateau were much more advanced than primitive folks of the Steppes.

This was the case. And now we have GENETIC evidences for this.




10dsaoh.jpg

----------


## Goga

> Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying.


Listen dude, I'm not 100% like those fellas of Iran Neolithic. Nobody is. But what I'm trying to say is that those people came from the Iranian Plateau. I'm talking about the migration patters and migration routes and URHEIMAT of original PIE and Aryan (Iranid) folks.

And it was NOT in the Steppes and not in Europe. 

Iranian language evolved on the Iranian Plateau and NOT in the Steppes.




> Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.


Those wannabe Aryans are not my enemies. I'm not Semitic and I'm not a Jew. 

They want to be like me and want to have my history. My people the Medes, were the only one who called themselves the Aryans and were the true Aryans who found the real Great Aryan Empire.


Those wannabe Aryans are stealing MY history and are talking about MY ancestors. Of course I will denounce and fight their lies. Because they do lie about ME and my history and my mighty Aryan ancestors.

At the first day they will stop trying to steal my history, I'll stop to fight them. I'm not trying to steal their history, they are trying to steal MY history.


The Medes were the ORIGINAL Aryan people and they were native to the Iranian Plateau, period!

----------


## LeBrok

> Only in YOUR dreams it was this way? It is a wishful thinking of the Eurocentric Europeans and wannabe Aryans and racist who can handle the real truth.
> 
> What happened was NOT that difficult. It was much simpler. 
> 
> 
> Leyla Tepe Proto-Indo-Europeans migrated into the Yamnaya Horzin from the Maykop culture. They Indo-Europized the Yamnaya folks of the Steppes. Than those Indo-Europized Yamnaaya folks invaded Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Leave your fantasies alone and let's talk empirical evidence. Again how can you explain this, because I have a hunch that you don't understand this calculator at all:
Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50%, as per Lazaridis, not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?

----------


## Goga

> Leave your fantasies alone and let's talk empirical evidence. Again how can you explain this, because I have a hunch that you don't understand this calculator at all:
> Tell me why Yamnaya/Catacomb, the guy who lived just behind Caucasus-Rise 552, is so low on Caucasian admixture in this run? Should it be at 50%, as per Lazaridis, not mere 6? Tell us how you make sense out of it?


Very EASY.


First of all like I wrote earlier we are using only 1 calculator. Maybe other calculators would be better and a show us a better and different picture.


You don't get it, man. What is wrong with you? You think like a child. You are blinded by your willingness to be somebody else. Be proud of you are and simply don't try to steal history of other people.



According to Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld:

Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi from India : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


And according to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. Are Abhkasians only 9.68 % CHG? Really? Are you serious? OPENYOUR EYESS!!!



*Yamnaya/Catacomb folks were NEVER Indo-Europized by CHG folks*. Yamnaya Horzion was Indo-Europized by people from Leyla Tepe / Iranian Plateua via Maykop. 
There are many evidences that culture of Maykop was closely related to Leyla Tepe.


" _It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe_ *were the founders*_ of the_ _Maykop culture__.

__The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments,[4] in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region (Arslantepe, Coruchu-tepe, Tepechik, etc.)._
_An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC_ "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture

http://www.paleog.ru/hazna.html





It was all from Leyla Tepe / Iranian Plateau. They were the same people who brought CIVILIZATION to the Mesopotamia and Egypt.


People from Leyla Tepe/Iranian Plateau went through Northern Caucasus/Maykop and from there they migrated and Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon.



P1, R*, R2, R1*, R1b* and R1a* are *not* related to CHG. (Caucasian)
P1, R*, R2, R1*, R1b* and R1a* are related to the Iranian Plateau folks. (Gedrosia, Balcoh, Hindu Kush)

----------


## Goga

> I'm so regretting we don't have Iranian Neolithic guy in this calculator. Things would become obvious even for Goga.


Very simple. I see a very clear pattern. Folks from Iran more closer to the prehistoric times are getting more Gedrosia. So, pure Iranian Neolithic people would be mostly Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush people. Nothing to do with the Steppes.

Later on, actually during very recently, only 2000 years ago, there was some back migration of East Iranized Scythians from the Steppes who migrated into the Median Empire / West Asia and those brought some Steppe ancestry with them. Again, nothing to do with PIE and proto-Indo-Iranians. But it was not much and much, much less than Indo-Europeans from the Iranian Plateau who left their Iranian/Indo-European DNA in the Steppes..

----------


## LeBrok

> Very EASY.
> 
> 
> *First of all like I wrote earlier we are using only 1 calculator. Maybe other calculators would be better and a show us a better and different picture.*
> 
> 
> You don't get it, man. What is wrong with you? You think like a child. You are blinded by your willingness to be somebody else. Be proud of you are and simply don't try to steal history of other people.


Oh, you don't like the calculator, lol, tough lack. The world is not what you like it to be. In the real world you learn how it works from the data. 
Now we know that you don't have a clue and don't have an explanation to my question. You have no idea what are the admixtures here, and you confusing them with Lazaridis ones. 
No problem then for you to imagine your perfect fantasy world.
Then you went straight to insults. Not nice.

----------


## Goga

> Oh, you don't like the calculator, lol, tough lack. The world is not what you like it to be. In the real world you learn how it works from the data. 
> Now we know that you don't have a clue and don't have an explanation to my question. You have no idea what are the admixtures here, and you confusing them with Lazaridis ones. 
> No problem then for you to imagine your perfect fantasy world.
> Then you went straight to insults. Not nice.


I did not insult you. You gave me an infraction for nothing. Like always, how cute.

I gave a correct answer to your question and now you can't counter it.


My answer was that Indo-Europeans from Maykop who Indo-Europized the Yamnaya Horizon were not CHG folks, but they came originally from Leyla Tepe and were therefore native Iranid people full of Gedrosia/Baloch/Hindu Kush auDNA. R1b was not related to CHG, but to the Iranian Plateau.
The same people who came from Leyla Tepe, brought also civilization in the Mesopotamia and Egypt. Those folks were the true civilization builders.


According to YOU Sindhi are more CHG than Abhkasians who are actually native to Northern Caucasus. Because Sindhi from India have more Baloch auDNA, while Abhkasian from Northern Caucasus have only 9.68 % Baloch and *69.15* !!! Caucasian. I mean, really? 

Abhkasian : Caucasian = 69.15 vs. Baloch = 9.68 %
Sindhi : Caucasian = 9.68 % vs. Baloch 46.18 %


And now you're talking about the lala lulaby worlds.



When my people know that they are on the right side and when we are speaking the truth we never give up. We are fighting for thousands of years and we never give up. You should have studied our history and learned something from it.
As long as I'm on the right side and speaking in accordance with science, the truth and have enough knowledge about the topic, I will NEVER give up and will fight the lies on internet.

----------


## Tomenable

*LeBrok, Goga:*

Iran Neolithic samples are on Gedmatch as well:

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8462.0

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

From the first link (forum molgen):

I1290-IranN - Gedmatch kit *M967114*
I1671-IranLN - Gedmatch kit *M937770

=====================
*
When using HarappaWorld calculator:

*Kit M967114 (Iran Neolithic):

Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Baloch
62.71

2
Caucasian
24.97

3
S-Indian
6.13

4
SW-Asian
3.88

5
W-African
1.78

6
Papuan
0.35

7
San
0.18


*
Kit M937770 (Iran Late Neolithic):

Admix Results (sorted):

**#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Baloch
56.25

2
Caucasian
32.91

3
SW-Asian
8

4
S-Indian
2.64

5
Pygmy
0.21

----------


## LeBrok

HarappaWorld:
Comparing Goga (Pure Aryan) with Ancient Iranian (supposed source of IEs)

*Admixture:*
*Zoran:*
*Arya:*
*Goga:*
*Iranian 
Neolithic*
*IrnCopperAge*
*Afansevo
Rise 509*

Caucasian
40,79
40,88
40,84
24.97
49.91
2.03

Baloch
27,95
29,33
27,86
62.71
37,82
29.56

SW-Asian
13,29
14,96
13,9
3.88
10.88
-

NE-Euro
4,3
4,75
3,92
0
-
63.24

Mediterranean
8,05
4,17
8,27
0
-
1.89

S-Indian
2,99
3,71
2,23
6.13
1.05
-

Siberian
0,96
0,22
1,08
0
-
1.64

W-African
-
-
-
1.78
0.33
0.72

SE-Asian
-
0,27
0,57
0
-
-

Beringian
-
0,26
-
0
-
1.45

NE-Asian
-
0,39
-
0
-
-

Papuan
0,28
0,92
0,36
0.35
-
-

American
0,67
-
0,98
0
-
1.40

San
0,63
-
-
0.18
-
-

E-African
0,07
0,14
-
0
-
-

Pygmy
-
-
-
0
-







> Listen dude, I'm not 100% like those fellas of Iran Neolithic.


Not even close.
You and Neolithic guy are like from different planets. Your fantazy about purity of "your" race is gone. The hard truth of dynamic and ever changing world is obvious. Lots of mixing and remixing happened since.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> HarappaWorld:
> Comparing Goga (Pure Aryan) with Ancient Iranian (supposed source of IEs)
> 
> *Admixture:*
> *Zoran:*
> *Arya:*
> *Goga:*
> *Iranian 
> Neolithic*
> ...


He's close to Iran Copper Age. There's more continuity almost everywhere that what many would have supposed, although what you said is also true.

People who believe that Afanasevo was Proto-Iranian are delusional.

----------


## Tomenable

*Kit M381564 (Iran Iron Age, 971-832 BC):*

*HarappaWorld - Admix Results (sorted):*

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
47.6

2
Baloch
29.17

3
SW-Asian
13.43

4
Mediterranean
6.66

5
NE-Euro
3.01

6
W-African
0.11

7
Pygmy
0.03



*Single Population Sharing:*

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
Kurd (xing)
4.36

2
Kurd (yunusbayev)
4.4

3
Kurd (harappa)
7.61

4
Iranian (harappa)
8.38

5
Iranian (behar)
9.29



So now we have a lot of Iranians to compare with each other:

Neolithic, Late Neolithic, Copper Age, Iron Age, Medieval and modern Iranians.

Only a Bronze Age Iranian is still missing.

----------


## LeBrok

> *Kit M381564 (Iran Iron Age, 971-832 BC):*
> 
> *HarappaWorld - Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> #
> Population
> Percent
> 
> 1
> ...


 Seems like Kurds changed the least in the area from Iron Age, though Iranians drifted quite a bit.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

There's continuity since the Copper Age. Mediterranean and NE Euro slightly increase in Iron Age. A few samples aren't enough but let's assume that they are represantative.

So:
1) Either the languages are native there (I don't believe that)
2) or some people with mostly Caucasian and some South West Asian admixture brought IE during the Copper Age
3) or some people with Mediterranean (~2/3) and NE Euro (~1/3) admixture brought IE after the Copper Age

Baloch admixture peaks in Brahui people, Baloch etc
Caucasian admixture peaks in Georgians, Abkhasians etc
NE Euro admixture peaks in Finnish, Lithuanians etc
Mediterranean admixture peaks in Sardinians, Basque etc
SW Asian admixture peaks in Saudis, Bedouins etc

Baloch decreases though, so I think it's unlikely that the culture which brought IE had it.

[I personally don't accept kurgan theory at all, though I believe Western 'steppes' were IE]

----------


## LeBrok

HarappaWorld:
Genetic transformation and similarities of Iranians through times.

*Admixture:*
*Goga:*
*Iranian
Medieval*
*Iranian 
Iron Age*
*Iranian
Copper
Age*
*Iranian 
Late 
Neolithic*
*Iranian 
Neolithic*
Source
of 
Admixtures

Caucasian
40,84
45.47
47.6
49.91
32.91
24.97
Mostly in CHG

Baloch
27,86
26.89
29.17
37,82
56.25
62.71
Mostly in Iranian Farmer

SW-Asian
13,9
13.13
13.43
10.88
8.00
3.88
Mostly in Natufians

NE-Euro
3,92
7.27
3.01
0
0
0
EHG

Mediterranean
8,27
4.87
6.66
0
0
0
Anatolian EF/20% in WHG

S-Indian
2,23
1.23
0
1.05
2.64
6.13


Siberian
1,08
0.65
0
0
0
0


W-African
0
0.20
0.11
0.33
0
1.78


SE-Asian
0,57
0.57
0
0
0
0


Beringian
0
0.12
0
0
0
0


NE-Asian
0
0
0
0
0
0


Papuan
0,36
0
0.35
0
0
0.35


American
0,98
0
0
0
0
0


San
0
0
0
0
0
0.18


E-African
0
0
0
0
0
0


Pygmy
0
0
0.03
0
0.21
0

----------


## Tomenable

> There's continuity since the Copper Age.


If not counting *~15% of European-like* admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).

Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (*Timurid invasion* added East Asian-Siberian?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

Here is a comparison with use of *Dodecad K12b calculator:*

http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png



*^^^*
By the way, *Arya is of Bakhtiari descent* (they are* a Lurish tribe* from South-Western Iran):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakhtiari_people

----------


## Goga

> If not counting *~15% of European-like* admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).
> 
> Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (*Timurid invasion* added East Asian-Siberian?):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty
> 
> Here is a comparison with use of *Dodecad K12b calculator:*
> 
> http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png
> ...


Thank you for your work man! You did a great job!

As people know I ever said that I'm a direct descent of unevolved prehistoric 10,000 years old Iranian Farmer, lol. Over time people are changing and evolving andmixing with others. 

What I said is that Kurds are DIRECT descendants of the Medes. The Medes lived in the Iron Age in Media/Persian/Iran. Kurds and Kurdish language are NATIVE to their homeland.

Era before the Iron Age, the Bronze age  was an era of the Medes, Persians, Cimmerians, Alanians, Scythians and other Iranians in Kurdistan.

Bronze Age was also an age when the Scythians from the Steppes migrated into the Media/Kurdistan, the land of the Medes. Those people migrated and settled down in Media/Kurdistan. And by the time when some Scythians arrived they brought Atlantic-Med and Northern Europe componentswith them. I think that most Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan is from the Bronze Age belonged to Steppe people who settled down in Media.


Scythian stelae in Hakkari (Central Kurdistan)







6088941772_a1a3b58aee.jpg37546902074c97dfd9d5ae5a80b21991.jpgHakkari.jpgkurg8.jpgPKKstele.jpg

----------


## Coriolan

> Goga, Iran Neolithic wasn't the same as modern Iranians just as Europe Neolithic isn't the same as modern Europeans. 50% or more of Iranian's ancestry is from different sources, mostly people related to Anatolia Neolithic. Don't treat them as the same people as modern Iranians or any nearby people(Kurds). Stop with the Iranian-supremacist bull shit. No matter how often your fantasies are proven incorrect you stick to them, it is very annoying. Why do you copy the idea of a superior Aryan race from white supremacist? You're copying from your enemies. Kurds are just people, they're not superior to anyone.


Really, Iranians aren't superior to everyone else? But look at Goga, a fine representative of that proud Aryan race; hasn't genetic data confirmed times and again that his supremacist fantasies were true, er, fantasies - as no sane and intelligent person could have doubted.  

Sent from my LG-D855 using Eupedia Forum mobile app

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> If not counting *~15% of European-like* admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).
> 
> Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (*Timurid invasion* added East Asian-Siberian?):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty
> 
> Here is a comparison with use of *Dodecad K12b calculator:*
> 
> http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png
> ...


Probably a migration after the Copper Age brought Mediterranean & NE Euro. (SW Asian increases also after the Copper Age too. I didn't see it before). For me, these people could have been IE but not necessarily, since both components are found in non-IE people too and peak in Finnish people and Basques respectively. And we don't know if they were a single mixed group or multiple unrelated groups. SW Asian peaks in Saudis. 'Baloch' peaks in some Brahuis probably who speak Dravidian, then Balochs. Caucasian in Kartvelian speakers.
But there's 'continuity' in the sense that there wasn't any massive population replacement. 
The Timurids may have brought extra Siberian, East Asian, minor North / South East Asian? but also NE Euro too imo since it existed in the Steppes.

A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.



So, SW Asian too existed in Europe.

Neolithic to Copper Age Iran
Caucasian +24,97 
SW Asian +3,88 

Copper Age to Iron Age Iran
Mediterranean +6,66
NE Euro +3,01 
SW Asian +2,55 

Sorry if I made any mistakes.

----------


## LeBrok

> Probably a migration after the Copper Age brought Mediterranean & NE Euro. (SW Asian increases also after the Copper Age too. I didn't see it before). For me, these people could have been IE but not necessarily, since both components are found in non-IE people too and peak in Finnish people and Basques respectively. And we don't know if they were a single mixed group or multiple unrelated groups. SW Asian peaks in Saudis. 'Baloch' peaks in some Brahuis probably who speak Dravidian, then Balochs. Caucasian in Kartvelian speakers.
> But there's 'continuity' in the sense that there wasn't any massive population replacement. 
> The Timurids may have brought extra Siberian, East Asian, minor North / South East Asian? but also NE Euro too imo since it existed in the Steppes.
> 
> A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.
> 
> 
> 
> So, SW Asian too existed in Europe.
> ...


SW Asian is highest in Natufians, it is their signature admixture.

----------


## LeBrok

I wonder if we should open a new thread for Harappa Admixture and move related posts there.

----------


## Goga

> A sample from Neolithic Hungary I found while googling.


I do like Dodacad K12b more. Maciamo is using this calculator for his maps.


So, here are the results of that person from Neolithic Hungary:



Naamloos.jpg

----------


## LeBrok

Here are the source/ancient best matching populations of Harappa admixtures:

Admixtures
Iranian Neolithic
10,000 Years Ago
CHG
13KYA
Natufian
13 KYA
EHG Samara
7.5 KYA
Anatolian EF
8 KYA
WHG
Hungary K01
7.5 KYA
EEF
Stuttgart
7.5 KYA
Yamnaya
Rise 522
4.5 KYA

S-Indian
6.13
0.62







*Baloch*
*62.71*
36.63

14.33



33.24

*Caucasian*
24.97
*54.15*
13.98

37.64

30.6
6.58

*NE-Euro*

3.84

*71.08*
0.86
82.06
7.82
56.02

SE-Asian

0.59







Siberian

0.77







NE-Asian









Papuan
0.35

0.68


0.2



American



6.89



2.46

Beringian



1.7



0.75

*Mediterranean*


27.39

*47.24*
17.44
49.46


*SW-Asian*
3.88

*53.62*

14.00

12.01


San
0.18





0.11


E-African


4.33






Pygmy

0.25







W-African
1.78
3.01

0.13
0.27
0.26

0.98


Some observation:
Baloch is maxed out in Iranian Neolithic population, and 1/3 in CHG. Interestingly it exists also in EHG. In EHG it didn't come from INF or CHG because EHG lacks Caucasian admixture. It must be ancient?
Caucasian is highest in Caucasian Hunter Gatherer, and spills over to Natufians and Iranian Early Farmers. But it didn't spill over Caucasus mountain to European Hunter Gatherer. This is rather surprising.
Caucasian admixture is seen first time on other side of Caucasus in Yamnaya sample. Proportions of Baloch and Caucasian in Yamnaya point of its mediation from Iranian Farmers and not from CHG.
South West Asian admixture is highest in Natufian, which is almost not found in CHG or Iranian farmer. This admixture can easily identify Natufian genes.
Mediterranean admixture is highest in Anatolia. It also is part Natufian and in part WHG as we can see it in Hungarian Hunter gatherer at almost 20% level.

----------


## LeBrok

Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:

Admixtures
Kostenki
Black Sea
36 KYA
Mal'ta boy
Siberia
24 KYA
Notes

S-Indian
13.18
10.13


*Baloch*
12.49
24.09
Early Iranian Farmer admixture mostly but also found in EHG.

*Caucasian*
*0.00*
*0.00*
CHG mostly

*NE-Euro*
29.02
40.14
EHG and most of WHG/ANE

SE-Asian
4.28



Siberian
1.75



NE-Asian




Papuan
5.16
0.7


American
3.32
17.71


Beringian
1.43
6.74


*Mediterranean*
18.76
*0.00*
Anatolian EF and WHG mix

*SW-Asian*
5.89
*0.00*
Mostly Natufian

San
1.24
0.3


E-African
1.82



Pygmy
0.92
0.19


W-African
0.73




Mal'ta contains only Baloch and NE Euro. Pretty much what was present in EHG, and likewise they miss Mediterranean and SW-Asian.
Kostenki lived north of Black Sea area though much earlier. It contains all the admixtures, even in relation to Natufians, but it is missing Caucasian admixture, same as Mal'ta boy. It seems that Caucasian admixture was a late arrival to the area. These two have even a connection to S-Indian but not to Caucasian?! Where did Caucasian come from?

----------


## Goga

> Here is something very interesting, genomes of Kostenki and Mal'ta boy which are very connected to ancient populations of this region:
> 
> Admixtures
> Kostenki
> Black Sea
> 36 KYA
> Mal'ta boy
> Siberia
> 24 KYA
> ...


According to David Reich --> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tory-of-Europe

Kostenki clusters VERY close to the Caucasians and Iranian. 'Pure' ANE Mal'ta (MA1) is also the closest to Caucasians and Iranians. Here is the evidence:






a.jpgb.jpg

----------


## Goga

> According to David Reich --> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tory-of-Europe
> 
> Kostenki clusters VERY close to the Caucasians and Iranian. 'Pure' ANE Mal'ta (MA1) is also the closest to Caucasians and Iranians. Here is the evidence:


Also it seems that Kostenki's genome looked VERY similar to CHG & Neolithic Iran.



c.jpg

----------


## LeBrok

Possibly CHG was original Beloch group, separated and secluded in Caucasus mountains for 10k years. Genome drifted away and developed CHG admixture there. Likely, it is fairly young admixture not existing in Kostenki yet. Both CHG and Iranian Farmer are composed of Caucasian and Beloch just in different proportions. If CHG was from far away they would also plot fare away from Iranian Neolithic, even if they had partially mixed with locals.

----------


## Goga

Wow, just WOW! Anatolian/European Farmers were genetically so far away from CHG/Neolithic Iran, while they (Anatolian Farmers) were close to Neolithic Levant.

After the agriculture revolution, the Iranians + CHG folks totally replaced the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Asia Minor. This proces occurred during the Copper (Chalcolithic) Age. Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Anatolians were already slightly moving toward Caucasians/Iranians.

Also, Anatolian Farmers influenced Neolithic Iranian a little bit, that's why Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Iranians are just a little bit shifted toward south.

Later those Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Iranians got some minor Bronze Age Steppe ancestry, so they shifted a little bit toward west toward Middle Bronze Age Steppe. So there was a some kind of minor back migration from the Steppes into West Asia again AFTER the Bronze Age. And we have archeological evidence for that and we know that some Northwestern (European) Scythians migrated into and settled down in Kurdistan & Iran

----------


## Goga

> Possibly CHG was original Beloch group, separated and secluded in Caucasus mountains for 10k years. Genome drifted away and developed CHG admixture there. Likely, it is fairly young admixture not existing in Kostenki yet. Both CHG and Iranian Farmer are composed of Caucasian and Beloch just in different proportions. If CHG was from far away they would also plot fare away from Iranian Neolithic, even if they had partially mixed with locals.


Yeah, I do also believe that at one point CHG and Neolithic Iranian belonged to the same group. But it seems that when CHG broke away from Neo_Iran and settled down in the Caucasus Mountains it received some minor gene flow from EHG, thousands and thousands of years ago. That's why CHG is just a little bit more shifted toward ancient EHG.

My guess is

CHG *=* _97-98 %_ 'Neolithic Iranian' *+* _2-3 %_ EHG

or

'Neolithic Iranian' *=* _97-98 %_ CHG *+* _2-3 %_ ??? (something unknown)

----------


## Goga

> Wow, just WOW! Anatolian/European Farmers were genetically so far away from CHG/Neolithic Iran, while they (Anatolian Farmers) were close to Neolithic Levant.
> 
> After the agriculture revolution, the Iranians + CHG folks totally replaced the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Asia Minor. This proces occurred during the Copper (Chalcolithic) Age. Copper Age (Chalcolithic) Anatolians were already slightly moving toward Caucasians/Iranians.


Now we are getting somewhere!

This is for me the *ULTIMATE* evidence that during the copper age Anatolia & Mesopotamia was replaced by the same people who invaded Yamnaya. Iranians (Aryans) from Leyla Tepe moved toward Yamnaya and Anatolia/Mesopotamia simultaneously !!!

I don't why, but Anatolian farmers were the weakest link and got replaced by the CHG/Neo_Iran folks during the Copper Age. It was the time of and correspondents well with the Sumerians of the Ubaid (and later Uruk) period.


According Carleton Stevens Coon the Sumerians were 'Iranid' people (belonged to the Iranian/Aryan race) !!!

" _It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen,_ "

" _These early Sumerians, like the inhabitants of the Iranian plateau, had already acquired the projecting, aquiline noses so characteristic of the modem Near East. Like the plateau dwellers, these early Sumerians were Afghanian in race._ "

https://archive.org/stream/RacesOfEu...0Coon_djvu.txt

----------


## Fire Haired14

Results for Iron age Sycthian.

S-Indian
1.53

Baloch
24.12

Caucasian
8.80

NE-Euro
40.81

SE-Asian
1.38

Siberian
6.27

NE-Asian
2.00

Papuan
0.32

American
2.43

Beringian
2.00

Mediterranean
9.35

SW-Asian
-

San
-

E-African
0.32

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.64



1

68.2%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
31.8%
brahui (hgdp)
@
5.69

2

67.3%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.7%
balochi (hgdp)
@
6.06

3

67.7%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
+
32.3%
makrani (hgdp)
@
6.07




1 brahui + chuvash + mordovian + mordovian @ 6.364490
2 brahui + lithuanian + lithuanian + uzbek @ 6.455594

----------


## Goga

> Results for Iron age Sycthian.
> 
> S-Indian
> 1.53
> 
> Baloch
> 24.12
> 
> Caucasian
> ...


Thanks! 

As you can see Scythians were heavily mixed people. Native people in the Steppes (North Central Asia) were linguistically Iranized by proto-East Iranian BMAC folks. Scythians were also mixed with East Asian people.

Later those East Iranian speaking Scythians of Central Asia moved West toward Ukraine. Some of them back migrated toward and settled down in the land of the Medes (Media in Kurdistan/Western Iran/Iranian Plateau).


It were the Scythians who brought some Siberians and East Asian DNA to Kurdistan in the Iron Age. That's why Kurds have some of it.


Kurds and some other *Western* Iranians have between 10-15 % of that Bronze/Iron Age Scythian's DNA, because Kurds have between 4-7 % NE-Euro component. (4/40 = 10 % & 7/40 = 17,5 %)


PS. Kurds have ~ 75 % ancient Aryan Medo-Persian DNA, ~13 % Scythian, ~7 % Hurrian/Armenian and ~5 % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egypt)

----------


## johen

> According Carleton Stevens Coon the Sumerians were 'Iranid' people (belonged to the Iranian/Aryan race) !!!


Has Iranian or Kurd people still kept some kind of Sumer tradition or customs until now?


Sumer wrestling


Altai wrestling


korean wrestling

----------


## LeBrok

> Results for Iron age Sycthian.
> 
> S-Indian
> 1.53
> 
> Baloch
> 24.12
> 
> Caucasian
> ...


 This Scythian sort of resembles Andronovo sample, but with more Caucasian and way more Siberian-Beringian admixtures. Is he turning Mongolian?

Andronovo

Population


S-Indian
0.54

Baloch
21.23

Caucasian
2.4

NE-Euro
56.39

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
1.93

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
1.05

Beringian
1.22

Mediterranean
14.37

SW-Asian
-

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.06

W-African
0.81

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> Yeah, I do also believe that at one point CHG and Neolithic Iranian belonged to the same group. But it seems that when CHG broke away from Neo_Iran and settled down in the Caucasus Mountains it received some minor gene flow from EHG, thousands and thousands of years ago. That's why CHG is just a little bit more shifted toward ancient EHG.
> 
> My guess is
> 
> CHG *=* _97-98 %_ 'Neolithic Iranian' *+* _2-3 %_ EHG
> 
> or
> 
> 'Neolithic Iranian' *=* _97-98 %_ CHG *+* _2-3 %_ ??? (something unknown)


What you should explain is why the Baloch component decreases from Neolithic to Copper Age and from Copper Age to Iron Age? (according to HarappaWorld calculator)
Why the Caucasian component increases significantly from Neolithic to Copper Age. Is it a back migration?
And then it's the Mediterranean + NE Euro + SW Asian admixture after the Copper Age.

----------


## Goga

> What you should explain is why the Baloch component decreases from Neolithic to Copper Age and from Copper Age to Iron Age? (according to HarappaWorld calculator)
> Why the Caucasian component increases significantly from Neolithic to Copper Age. Is it a back migration?
> And then it's the Mediterranean + NE Euro + SW Asian admixture after the Copper Age.


Honestly, I don't know for sure what happened between late Neolithic and Copper Age. Caucasian and Neolithic_Iranian admixture are almost the same. So, maybe calculators have some trouble to separate both admixtures.

I think between late Neolithic and Copper Age Neolithic_Iranian mixed a little bit with the Anatolian Farmers. That's why we see at the map that they shift a little it toward south. But as you can see Caucasians and Iranians didn't shift that much from Neolithic_Iranians and CHG.


Mediterranean + some SW_Asian admixture could be native to Anatolia. Anatolian farmers had most of Mediterranean admixture, that's why we have also very high Mediterranean admixture in the Neolithic European farmers.

Neolithic Anatolian (European) Farmers = Mediterranean + some SW_Asian + ? Caucasian ???


After the Copper Age the SW_Asian admixture didn't increase that much and stayed almost the same.


I already explained why we see NE_Euro in Kurdistan/Western Iran.

----------


## Goga

> Has Iranian or Kurd people still kept some kind of Sumer tradition or customs until now?


Native Kurdish religion (Yezidism) resembles many things with the Sumerian mythology.

Like ancient Kurds & the modern day Ezdi Kurd (Yezidi), Sumerians were the SUN worshippers and they believed in *7 angels* (Annunaki)


Sumerians *Birdlike* God (Annunaki):






Ezdi Kurds portrait the GOD also as a SUN adn have 7 archangels with *Tausî Melek* as a chiefangel. We do also believe in the creation of cosmos from the cosmic egg (the big bang theory).






*
*
Ezdi sanjak 




Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE' with the WINGED DISK:



http://treeoflifemeaning22.blogspot....e-of-life.html


About the Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE':

" _There are several later paintings and drawings of the Tree of Life, but this Sumerian Clay tablet (however crude it might appear) is one of the earliest, if not the first. It is among the original Sumerian Cylinders and clay tablets excavated circa 2, 500 BCE._ 




_The clay tablet is prepared by rolling the carved metal seal on wet clay, which is then baked. Once baked the tablet cannot be altered. The original Sumerian (Indo-Iranian) concept was that wisdom is likened to a tree whose fruit endows those who eat it with health and longevity. The symbol of an elixir of life had already been well established in antiquity by the Indo-Iranian cultures long before Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other cultures had the opportunity to recognise it. This 4,500 year old clay tablet shows a man and a woman seated below the Tree of Life. Behind the woman is seen a serpent allegedly ‘tempting’ the woman. 

This concept was expurgated in the Bible as the tree of life in the Garden of Eden by the Jews and Christians. The Book of Genesis 3.22 mentions such a tree as 'the giver of eternal life.'_ "

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/vohuma...0of%20Life.htm



Prominence of the Irano-Afghan Race in Mesopotamia since Sumerian Times. The Iranic or Irano-Afghan race has dominated the plains of Mesopotamia since Sumerian times, as the learned American anthropologist Prof. C. S. Coon notes,

"_The Irano-Afghan race, prominent since Sumerian times in Mesopotamia, is the chief population element in the entire highland territory from the western border of Iran to northern India._" (Coon 1939, "The Mediterranean World: (4) - The Irano-Afghan Race", p.415)

http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/

----------


## LeBrok

CHG, Satsurblia


Armenian Chalcolithic


Samara HG


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
0.62

S-Indian
0.27

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
36.63

Baloch
17.64

Baloch
14.33

Baloch
30.06

Caucasian
54.15

Caucasian
41.35

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
7.57

NE-Euro
3.84

NE-Euro
20.25

NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
59.14

SE-Asian
0.59

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.77

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.15

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
0.55

American
9.62

American
2.21

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.15

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
11.12

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.81

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.25

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
3.01

W-African
-

W-African
0.2

W-African
-


Anatolian EF


Anatolian Chalcolithic

Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14

Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.14

NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
6.45

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
26.7

SW-Asian
14.00

SW-Asian
9.27

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.27

W-African
0.13




Looks to me that by Chalcolithic there was a massive invasion of Steppe/Yamnaya people into Armenia. It pulled amount of Baloch and Caucasian down and substantially increased NE Euro. I would say 20 to 30% of new population. "Armenians" were also affected by another 20% of population influx from Anatolia EF, this transferred 20% of Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures. However in Chalcolithic the trend reverses and we can see huge effect of Armenian Chalcolithic on Anatolian Chalcolithic.

I'm surprised however of low level of Caucasian admixture into Yamnaya. Seems that with Iranian Farmer movement into the Steppe, mostly Baloch admixture was transferred. Looking at NE ratio dropping from Samara (EHG) to Poltavka (Yamnaya), that's like taking roughly 25% of Iranian Farmer genes.


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
6.13

Baloch
30.06

Baloch
62.71

Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
24.97

NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.99

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.35

American
2.21

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
3.88

San
-

San
0.18

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

W-African
1.78

----------


## Boreas

> Anatolian EF
> 
> 
> Anatolian Chalcolithic
> 
> Population
> 
> 
> Population
> ...


Boreas-Harappa.jpg

Without Caucausian increases during the Chalcolithic, all other changes are in same direction  :Grin:

----------


## Angela

> CHG, Satsurblia
> 
> 
> Armenian Chalcolithic
> 
> 
> Samara HG
> 
> 
> ...



Whatever "Caucasian" represents in this calculator, the Satsurblia number indicates it was present from very early times in the Caucasus. It's also clear that while it increased in Anatolia in the Chalcolithic, it was already present in the Anatolia EF; 37.64 is a significant number. For all the data shows that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia EF were distinct populations, they shared substantial percentages of the same component. (Caucasian)

There's an interesting comparison between Satsurblia and Iran Neolithic as well for "Caucasian":
Satsurblia: 54.15
Iran Neolithic: 24.97

Then we can look at the two Anatolia samples:
Anatolia EF: 37.64
Anatolia Chalcolithic: 48.14

Is it that the "Caucasian" was first in the area of the Iran Neolithic and then "Baloch" type ancestry entered from the southeast?

Do we have an Armenian Neolithic sample? I'd wait to draw any larger conclusions until we see those numbers.

----------


## Tomenable

Gedmatch calculators seem to be rather good for ancients as well (not only for modern people).

Here is a PCA of ancient samples based on their admixture results in Eurogenes K15 calculator:

http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png



If we project also some of modern Europeans onto this PCA, I believe they will plot in this area:

http://s9.postimg.org/rkmjd7cr3/Europeans.png



=================================================

*Data used for creating that PCA:* https://s9.postimg.org/h9vj9gi9p/K15_Ancients.png

Perhaps a PCA based on HarappaWorld results would be very similar.

----------


## Goga

> Looks to me that by Chalcolithic there was a massive invasion of Steppe/Yamnaya people into Armenia. It pulled amount of Baloch and Caucasian down and substantially increased NE Euro. I would say 20 to 30% of new population. "Armenians" were also affected by another 20% of population influx from Anatolia EF, this transferred 20% of Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures. However in Chalcolithic the trend reverses and we can see huge effect of Armenian Chalcolithic on Anatolian Chalcolithic.



Wow, There was even a difference between Iranian Chalcolithic and Armenian Chalcolithic ! Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranian were 2 (two) different populations


*Admixture* 
*Neolithic Iran*
*Iran Chalcolothic/CopperAge* 
*Armenian Chalcolithic/CopperAge*

Caucasian
24.97
49.91
41.35

Baloch
62.71
37,82
17.64

SW-Asian
3.88
10.88
8.81

NE-Euro
-
-
20.25

Mediterranean
-
-
11.12

S-Indian
6.13
1.05
0.27

Siberian
-
-
-

W-African
1.78
0.33
-

SE-Asian
-
-
-

Beringian
-
-
-

NE-Asian
-
-
-

Papuan
0.35
-
-

American
-
-
0.55

San
0.18
-
-

E-African
-
-
-

Pygmy
-
-
-




It seems that *Iron Age* Iranians (Medes/Persians) got some of their NE_Euro admixture from Copper/Bronze Age Armenians and maybe NOT everything from the Scythians.

----------


## Goga

*Eureka*!! Now the picture is getting more clear to me about what happened in Anatolia/Armenia and Western Iran.


About Armenian/Anatolia

First we have got the Anatolian Farmers in Anatolia/Armenia. Those neolithic farmers were the same who migrated into Europe. Later those farmers were hugely replaced by Yamnaya-kind of people (those Yamnaya folks were already mixed with Iranians). Those Yamnaya folks brought some NE-Euro and Baloch admixture into Armenia. On the third stage Armenia/Anatolia experienced a 3rd migration wave from Iran. And therefore they got some extra Baloch ancestry.


*So ancient Armenia/Anatolia*:

1st stage: Anatolian Farmers
2nd stage: Anatolian Farmers + Iranians
3rd stage: Anatolian Farmers + Iranians + Yamnaya-type people


About Western Iran/Kurdistan/Media/Persia

Copper Age WESTERN Iranians mixed with those *3rd stage Armenians* to some degree and that was the point when also those Iranians received a minor geneflow from those Armenians who contributed some Mediterranean & NE_Europe admixture to the western part of the Iranian Plateau. This was my first prediction before I saw Armenian Chalcolithic auDNA:


*Iron Age Western Iranian - modern Kurds:* 

~ _75 %_ ancient Aryan Medo-Persian
~_13 %_ Scythian
~_7_ % Hurrian-Armenian
~_5_ % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egypt)


*This is my new prediction on Iron Age Western Iranian to modern Kurdish DNA.
*
~ _75_ % ancient Medo-Persian Aryan
~ _15_ % Hurro-Armenian
~ _5_ % Scythian (brought some Siberian and other East Asian admixtres to West Asia)
~ _5_ % Semitic (Chaldean/Babylonian/Egyptian)

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

This is from Kura-Araxes, kit number M536324, labeled ArmeniaEBA

Kura-Araxes
Armenia
Talin [I1658 / TA3/R8]
Female
3347-3092 calBCE (4492±29 BP)



U3a2

Lazaridis 2016




Population


S-Indian
0.27

Baloch
25.53

Caucasian
56.75

NE-Euro
4.79

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
5.88

SW-Asian
6.45

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.33




Geographical position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talin,_Armenia

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Armenia Chalcolithic was the following
Armenia
Areni-1 (Bird's Eye Cave) [I1631/ARE 1/43C]
Female
4250-4050 BCE



K1a8

Lazaridis 2016



Population


S-Indian
0.27

Baloch
17.64

Caucasian
41.35

NE-Euro
20.25

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
0.55

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
11.12

SW-Asian
8.81

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-


Geographical position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

So, Kura-Araxes had one sample with R1b1-M415 but this particular sample (which is female, like 'Armenia Chalcolithic') at least doesn't have significant NE Euro. 

ArmeniaMLBA has though.

I used Gedmatch for the first time. If anything is wrong, please inform me.

----------


## Tomenable

> Armenia Chalcolithic was the following


A lot of European admixture. One of Armenian Chalcolithic samples also had a European mtDNA haplo U4a:



Here are characteristic Mesolithic European mtDNA haplos: U8a, U8c, U5b, U5a (U5a1 + U5a2), U4 and U2.

U5a1, U4, U2e, U5b2a1a1 were most common in Eastern Europe. U5b, U5a2, U8a, U8c were more Western.

============================

Bronze Age Steppe had a mixture of Eastern European Mesolithic and other mtDNA haplos.

From Eastern European hunters they had mostly: U5a1, U4, U2e, U2d2 and U5b2a1a1.

They also had (most certainly from other groups) for example the following mtDNA:

K1b, T1a, T2a1, T2c1, H6a1, H5, H2, H13, J1b, J2b1, I3, W6, W3a1a, X2b, N1a1, R1, C4a3

----------


## Tomenable

Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:

*Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:*

M828815
Yamnaya-RISE552

M655536
Yamnaya-I0231

M343758
Yamnaya-I0443

F999968
Yamnaya-RISE548

F999942
Afanasievo-RISE509

M828784
Afanasievo-RISE511

M766878
Poltavka-I0440

F999946
Catacomb-RISE552



*If you check them with HarappaWorld:*

Proportion of NE_Euro to Mediterranean admixture is about 2:1 for all these samples.

So if Armenian Chalcolithic scores 20 NE_Euro + 10 Med, it could all be from Yamnaya.

And Amerindian suggests some ANE (which could also be from Yamnaya).

----------


## Tomenable

Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:

*Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:*

M690970
Sintashta-RISE386

M277797
Sintashta-RISE395

M608028
Andronovo-RISE505

F999947
Andronovo-RISE500

F999961
Andronovo-RISE503

M472767
Srubnaya-I0232

M217196
Srubnaya-I0430



==================================

Here is a comparison of ancient samples with use of Eurogenes K15:

*File with data:* http://www85.zippyshare.com/v/E6DR0qQl/file.html

----------


## LeBrok

> Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:
> 
> *Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:*
> 
> M828815
> Yamnaya-RISE552
> 
> M655536
> Yamnaya-I0231
> ...


Nope, Yamanya didn't have Med. Only Sintashta and Andronovo did. 
Yamnaya Rise522


Poltavka, mid Yamnaya


Afansievo Rise511


Sintashta


Andronovo

Population


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.54

Baloch
33.24

Baloch
30.06

Baloch
28.13

Baloch
17.64

Baloch
21.23

Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
7.57

Caucasian
2.18

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
2.4

NE-Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
59.14

NE-Euro
63.76

NE-Euro
58.44

NE-Euro
56.39

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99

Siberian
1.64

Siberian
-

Siberian
1.93

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
2.46

American
2.21

American
3.56

American
-

American
1.05

Beringian
0.75

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.22

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
23.06

Mediterranean
14.37

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.06

W-African
0.95

W-African
-

W-African
0.72

W-African
0.82

W-African
0.81




Surprising that they Sintashta and Andronovo don't have Caucasian. How could they get Mediteranean without getting Caucasian? WHG or maybe from Cucuteni farmers who were low on SW Asian and Caucasian? Here is Hungarian farmer:
NE7 Hungary


Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
19.04

NE-Euro
16.69

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

*Mediterranean*
*56.18*

SW-Asian
7.96

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.11



And WHG
K01, hungary, hunter gatherer


Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
-

NE-Euro
82.06

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.2

American
-

Beringian
-

*Mediterranean*
*17.44*

SW-Asian
-

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.26

----------


## LeBrok

> Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe samples:
> 
> *Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:*
> 
> M690970
> Sintashta-RISE386
> 
> M277797
> Sintashta-RISE395
> ...


Srubna is similar to Sintashta and Andronovo. Different from Yamnaya and Catacomb culture. Baloch is half of Yamnaya and up to 20% Med.
Srubna culture, 3.5kya

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
19.64

Caucasian
6

NE-Euro
56.05

SE-Asian
0.09

Siberian
0.66

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
0.2

Beringian
0.15

Mediterranean
16.91

SW-Asian
-

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.29



Similar to Corded Ware
Corded Ware, Germany


Population


S-Indian
0.24

Baloch
7.51

Caucasian
8

NE-Euro
47.75

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.71

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.97

American
-

Beringian
0.08

Mediterranean
31.31

SW-Asian
3.25

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.18

----------


## LeBrok

> Whatever "Caucasian" represents in this calculator, the Satsurblia number indicates it was present from very early times in the Caucasus. It's also clear that while it increased in Anatolia in the Chalcolithic, it was already present in the Anatolia EF; 37.64 is a significant number. For all the data shows that Iran Neolithic and Anatolia EF were distinct populations, they shared substantial percentages of the same component. (Caucasian)
> 
> There's an interesting comparison between Satsurblia and Iran Neolithic as well for "Caucasian":
> Satsurblia: 54.15
> Iran Neolithic: 24.97
> 
> Then we can look at the two Anatolia samples:
> Anatolia EF: 37.64
> Anatolia Chalcolithic: 48.14


Caucasian is a mystery, where it was hiding and when it came out.





> Is it that the "Caucasian" was first in the area of the Iran Neolithic and then "Baloch" type ancestry entered from the southeast?


 Nope, Baloch is also present in EHG and in Mal'ta. It was always in the area.
Samara HG


Mal'ta


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
10.13

Baloch
14.33

Baloch
24.09

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

NE-Euro
75.62

NE-Euro
40.14

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.7

American
9.62

American
17.71

Beringian
0.15

Beringian
6.74

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
0.3

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.19

W-African
0.2

W-African
-






> Do we have an Armenian Neolithic sample? I'd wait to draw any larger conclusions until we see those numbers


Still missing.

----------


## Angela

> LeBrok:
> Surprising that they Sintashta and Andronovo don't have Caucasian. How could they get Mediteranean without getting Caucasian? WHG or maybe from Cucuteni farmers who were low on SW Asian and Caucasian?


Srubnaya, Sintashta, and Adronovo are, what, 1000 years later, and a quite different people from Yamnaya and Catacomb, whether they have ancestry from them or are merely descended from some of the same people.

----------


## Tomenable

> Gedmatch calculators seem to be rather good for ancients as well (not only for modern people).
> 
> Here is a PCA of ancient samples based on their admixture results in Eurogenes K15 calculator:
> 
> http://s16.postimg.org/d5v0tx1et/PCA_described.png


That PCA looks similar to PCAs from Lazaridis (which shows that Eurogenes K15 works quite well with ancients):

https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png



http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re13673-f2.jpg

----------


## Tomenable

> Srubnaya, Sintashta, and Adronovo are, what, 1000 years later, and a quite different people from Yamnaya and Catacomb, whether they have ancestry from them or are merely descended from some of the same people.





> Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka/Catacomb samples:
> 
> *Gedmatch kit / culture and sample:*
> 
> M828815 / Yamnaya-RISE552
> M655536 / Yamnaya-I0231
> M343758 / Yamnaya-I0443
> F999968 / Yamnaya-RISE548
> F999942 / Afanasievo-RISE509
> ...


I made a comparison of these samples in GedrosiaK12 and EurasiaK14 calculators:

http://s15.postimg.org/i0j40q2xn/Ged...K12_Steppe.png



http://s16.postimg.org/xktrcr9px/Eurasia_K14_Steppe.png



*Graphs:

*http://s11.postimg.org/wo3d4i5wj/Ged...K14_graphs.png

----------


## Tomenable

And in Eurogenes K15:

Pop.
North
Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
East
Euro
West
Med
West Asian
East
Med
Red
Sea
South Asian
Southeast Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
Northeast African
Sub Saharan



Yamnaya-RISE552
30,98
0
12,12
28,8
0
21,88
0
0
4,5
0
0
1,72
0
0
0

Yamnaya-I0231
31,56
0
10,57
31,93
0
17,7
0
0
4,52
0
0
3,73
0
0
0

Yamnaya-I0443
29,29
5,28
11,4
27,67
0
20,02
0
0
3,46
0
0
2,88
0
0
0

Yamnaya-RISE548
35,58
1,53
13,39
33,08
0
15,91
0
0
0
0
0
0,5
0
0
0

Afanasievo-RISE509
32,72
3,36
13,39
33,37
0
16,21
0
0
0
0
0
0,95
0
0
0

Afanasievo-RISE511
30,66
0,11
18,32
28,76
0
15,98
0
0
2,27
0
0
3,9
0
0
0

Poltavka-I0440
28,69
0
14,87
30,62
0
20,84
0
0
3,08
0
0
1,9
0
0
0

Catacomb-RISE552
30,98
0
12,12
28,8
0
21,88
0
0
4,5
0
0
1,72
0
0
0

Sintashta-RISE386
40,16
22,94
12,34
14,68
0
7,74
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2,14

Sintashta-RISE395
36,69
23,23
15,26
19,86
0
4,96
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0

Andronovo-RISE505
26,06
18,42
14,95
25,31
0
9,4
0
0
4,34
0
0
1,51
0
0
0

Andronovo-RISE500
30,05
24,33
14,72
22,36
0
8,23
0
0
0,32
0
0
0
0
0
0

Andronovo-RISE503
38,88
25,87
5,74
21,6
0
7,91
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0

Srubnaya-I0232
30,53
19,79
16,73
19,03
0
11,25
0
0
2,69
0
0
0
0
0
0

Srubnaya-I0430
44,75
14,28
12,68
17,27
0,34
10,02
0
0
0,48
0
0
0,18
0
0
0

----------


## Tomenable

The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.

This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.

Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.

Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.

----------


## LeBrok

> That PCA looks similar to PCAs from Lazaridis (which shows that Eurogenes K15 works quite well with ancients):
> 
> https://s32.postimg.org/qi9jt7u0z/wykres_PCA.png
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re13673-f2.jpg


Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.

----------


## LeBrok

> The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.
> 
> This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.
> 
> Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.
> 
> Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.


Perhaps Atlantic is what in HarappaWorld is called Mediterranean. WHG have it but not EHG. SHG have a bit of Med too.

----------


## LeBrok

Does anyone know Jews or Arabs, semitic people, run their genome through HarappaWorld? I wonder what admixture composition they brought in.

----------


## Hauteville

> If not counting *~15% of European-like* admixture after the Copper Age (migration from Bronze Age Steppe?).
> 
> Later also some Siberian-East Asian and African after 1400 AD (*Timurid invasion* added East Asian-Siberian?):
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty
> 
> Here is a comparison with use of *Dodecad K12b calculator:*
> 
> http://s17.postimg.org/vj5yem6jz/Iranians.png
> ...


Wow good to see this comparison. It seems that modern Iranians are basically almost the same from the iron age Persians, while in the copper age and neolithic there are differences like much less Caucasus in the neolithic and the lack of Atlanto Med and North Europe admix. Modern Iranians have again South Asian admix (that iron age Persians don't have), while SW Asian increased a bit (effects of Arab conquest?), Caucasus dropped a bit and appear a small African (African slaves?there is a black Iranian community afaik) and Asian admix.

----------


## Goga

> Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
> Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
> Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
> Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.


If you look closer you can see that modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. 

Modern Iranians still plot MUCH closer to the Neolithic Iran than to Bronze Age Steppe. And VERY close to Chalcolithic Iran. It seems that Iranians didn't change much since the Chalcolithic Iran.


What do mean with 'Levant/Baloch' in the same sentence? You mean because Levant went up & Baloch went down? Baloch is very different from Levant and both have nothing to with each other. Actually because of Baloch Iranians were shifted up north, closer to ancient ANE.

----------


## Goga

> Wow good to see this comparison. It seems that modern Iranians are basically almost the same from the iron age Persians, while in the copper age and neolithic there are differences like much less Caucasus in the neolithic and the lack of Atlanto Med and North Europe admix. Modern Iranians have again South Asian admix (that iron age Persians don't have), while SW Asian increased a bit (effects of Arab conquest?), Caucasus dropped a bit and appear a small African (African slaves?there is a black Iranian community afaik) and Asian admix.


If you look at the PCA you can clearly see that modern day Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) are very close to Chalcolithic (Copper Age) Iran. As you can see the closest population to Chalcolithic Iran are Kurds first and Iranians (Persians) second.


But I do agree with you that modern Iranians are practically the same to Iron Age Iranians. The Iron Age was the time of the Medes and Persians, it is when the Medes came to power. The Medes established the FIRST Aryan Empire, the Median Empire and therefore were responsible for the later Achaemenid, Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanian Empires. Although all of them were Aryan in nature. So, Kurds are basically the same as their direct Aryan ancestors the Medes who already existed at least in the Iron Age.


The most important fact (for me personally) is that there is a continuation between the ancient Medes/Persians and modern Kurds/Persians.

----------


## Goga

> Does anyone know Jews or Arabs, semitic people, run their genome through HarappaWorld? I wonder what admixture composition they brought in.


Your wish is my command. Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld :


Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

algeria
0.46
2.32
2.82
0.53
0.32
0.36
0.14
0.25
0.19
0.58
38.88
30.20
0.46
10.30
0.34
11.83

assyrian
0.24
19.37
51.67
1.19
0.05
0.09
0.37
0.42
0.15
0.26
8.17
17.89
0.02
0.04
0.00
0.07

egypt
1.02
2.55
28.48
0.76
0.14
0.26
0.10
0.42
0.23
0.25
16.60
32.75
0.08
11.30
0.54
4.53

egyptian
0.26
3.06
30.48
0.36
0.27
0.14
0.11
0.35
0.19
0.29
12.84
33.11
0.26
12.42
0.15
5.69

iraqi-arab
3.80
18.72
37.81
2.05
0.18
0.92
0.97
0.77
0.17
0.76
8.03
21.89
0.48
2.33
0.57
0.56

iraqi-mandaean
0.84
20.18
47.80
0.00
0.06
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.59
0.60
7.08
22.21
0.00
0.45
0.00
0.00

jordanian
0.59
9.43
38.85
1.22
0.24
0.22
0.50
0.31
0.21
0.43
11.89
28.28
0.15
5.05
0.27
2.36

lebanese
0.54
10.84
41.42
2.87
0.61
0.58
0.61
0.33
0.24
0.21
13.09
23.47
0.19
3.35
0.14
1.49

lebanese-christian
0.36
9.86
49.26
0.10
0.34
0.45
0.32
1.06
0.50
0.72
11.66
22.86
0.66
1.63
0.23
0.00

lebanese-druze
0.76
10.65
49.86
0.35
0.44
0.46
0.20
1.27
0.47
1.07
10.58
20.74
0.54
1.93
0.51
0.17

lebanese-muslim
0.95
10.98
45.29
1.55
0.35
0.98
0.44
1.08
0.65
1.11
10.71
20.83
0.66
3.16
0.60
0.67

libya
0.45
1.09
10.75
0.81
0.37
0.36
0.22
0.27
0.36
0.47
26.54
38.71
0.10
10.73
0.36
8.40

moroccan
0.90
0.30
3.71
0.58
0.07
0.20
0.08
0.21
0.19
0.05
35.13
32.21
0.00
10.61
0.02
15.75

morocco-n
0.70
1.15
1.69
1.13
0.34
0.37
0.10
0.51
0.25
0.49
46.28
28.24
0.29
10.20
0.05
8.20

morocco-s
0.31
0.00
0.05
0.06
0.18
0.32
0.04
0.28
0.04
0.17
36.35
23.01
0.26
12.53
0.40
25.99

mozabite
0.39
0.32
0.56
0.54
0.08
0.61
0.03
0.10
0.03
0.26
39.57
33.74
0.01
10.07
0.00
13.67

palestinian
0.88
7.40
39.30
1.03
0.26
0.14
0.10
0.35
0.19
0.17
11.81
31.00
0.23
4.70
0.19
2.26

saudi
0.86
4.89
26.18
1.16
0.16
0.16
0.16
0.22
0.30
0.16
3.39
57.74
0.31
3.03
0.34
0.93

syrian
1.74
12.18
41.07
2.97
0.28
0.46
0.21
0.22
0.19
0.43
10.07
25.36
0.19
2.64
0.26
1.73

yemenese
2.44
7.85
26.76
0.93
0.46
0.24
0.21
0.43
0.28
0.55
5.40
35.59
0.33
8.24
1.44
8.85

ashkenazi
0.87
5.36
33.87
19.33
0.48
0.49
0.63
0.16
0.19
0.25
24.00
13.60
0.14
0.46
0.15
0.03

ashkenazy-jew
0.69
6.61
34.46
15.63
0.38
0.71
0.40
0.38
0.28
0.28
24.14
14.88
0.16
0.88
0.07
0.07

azerbaijan-jew
0.90
17.34
53.58
1.42
0.30
0.43
0.00
0.19
0.40
0.28
8.01
17.02
0.04
0.08
0.03
0.00

bene-israel-jew
34.93
26.16
21.28
1.09
0.24
0.48
0.32
0.81
0.24
0.83
4.67
8.08
0.11
0.49
0.12
0.16

ethiopian-jew
0.05
0.03
6.46
0.00
0.12
0.10
0.04
0.26
0.08
0.12
4.10
35.35
2.69
50.04
0.48
0.10

georgia-jew
0.34
15.80
52.14
2.36
0.51
0.12
0.04
0.12
0.42
0.30
7.96
19.42
0.00
0.46
0.00
0.00

iranian-jew
0.47
18.93
49.60
0.00
0.50
0.20
0.33
0.15
0.19
0.22
7.06
21.97
0.04
0.26
0.07
0.00

iraq-jew
0.54
17.27
48.77
0.15
0.30
0.00
0.00
0.36
0.13
0.05
8.65
23.57
0.02
0.17
0.02
0.00

morocco-jew
0.86
6.36
32.76
8.33
0.16
0.04
0.06
0.13
0.10
0.15
27.54
20.00
0.22
1.96
0.06
1.26

sephardic-jew
0.79
6.61
36.38
9.22
0.18
0.33
0.09
0.28
0.10
0.15
25.60
18.42
0.10
1.07
0.19
0.49

uzbekistan-jew
1.44
20.59
46.03
3.99
0.22
0.42
0.16
0.70
0.29
0.25
7.41
18.31
0.00
0.19
0.00
0.00

yemen-jew
0.78
1.53
35.81
0.03
0.15
0.07
0.00
0.27
0.14
0.12
5.87
50.72
0.17
4.34
0.03
0.00

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
> Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
> Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
> Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.


I don't understand what you are seeing. A movement of a Yamnaya-like population to Iran seems impossible to me. A movement from Europe is theoretically possible after the Copper Age (from a population which had Mediterranean, NE Euro and SW Asian admixture)

Neolithic to Copper Age Iran
Caucasian +24,97 
SW Asian +3,88 
*Baloch -24,89
*
Copper Age to Iron Age Iran
Mediterranean +6,66
NE Euro +3,01 
SW Asian +2,55 
*Baloch -8,65%*

----------


## Tomenable

> from a population which had Mediterranean, NE Euro


Yamnaya did not have Mediterranean, but Sintashta did have it:

*HarappaWorld:*

*Kit F999968 (Yamnaya RISE548):*

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
*1 NE-Euro 63.87*
2 Baloch 30.14
3 Caucasian 3.64
4 American 1.32
*5 Mediterranean 0.67* (noise-level)
6 W-African 0.36
7 E-African 0.01

*Kit M690970 (Sintashta RISE386):*

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
*1 NE-Euro 57.8
2 Mediterranean 19.92*
3 Baloch 18.5
4 Caucasian 2.01
5 W-African 1.2
6 Beringian 0.56

----------


## Tomenable

*Kit M217196 (Srubnaya I0430):*

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
*1 NE-Euro 55.13*
*2 Mediterranean 21.67*
3 Baloch 19.86
4 Caucasian 2.35
5 American 0.91
6 E-African 0.07

----------


## Tomenable

SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.

----------


## Goga

> Yamnaya did not have Mediterranean, but Sintashta did have it:*HarappaWorld:**Kit F999968 (Yamnaya RISE548):*Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent*1 NE-Euro 63.87*2 Baloch 30.143 Caucasian 3.644 American 1.32*5 Mediterranean 0.67* (noise-level)6 W-African 0.367 E-African 0.01*Kit M690970 (Sintashta RISE386):*Admix Results (sorted):# Population Percent*1 NE-Euro 57.82 Mediterranean 19.92*3 Baloch 18.54 Caucasian 2.015 W-African 1.26 Beringian 0.56


But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1

while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.

so it is:

*2.9 : 1* _vs._ *1 : 1.73*


Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.


Also, there was absolutely no migration from Sintashta. That's impossible! BMAC which was proto-East Iranian was much older than Sintashta!


And now we have got now enough evidence that the Steppes were massively colonized / Iranized by ancient Iranians. Both archeological and ancient DNA that Iranians from the Iranian Plateau colonized the Steppes

----------


## Goga

> But it is in a very different ration NE_Euro vs. Mediterranean = 2.9 : 1
> 
> while those who brought NE_Euro/Med had a different proportion, that means they belonged to a different ethnic group, their ratio was 1 : 1.73.
> 
> so it is:
> 
> *2.9 : 1* _vs._ *1 : 1.73*
> 
> 
> Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much.


Copper Age Armenians are much closer to this ration and a better match! And it is much more credible, since Copper Age Armenians were neighbors of Copper Age Iranians. This is the main reason why Caucasian auDNA didn't drop that much, while Baloch dropped much more.

Caucasian auDNA went from 49.91 to 47.6 = (47.6 - 49.91) / 49.91 x 100 = -4.63 %
Gedrosia auDNA went from 37.82 to 29.17 = (29.17 - 37.82 ) / 37.82 x 100 = -22.88 %


Gedrosia dropped by 22.88 % , while Caucasian dropped by just 4.63 %! If there was a migration from the Steppes, Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 % , while Caucasian auDNA drop just by 4.63 %..

According to HarappaWorld calculator the Steppes don't have much of Caucasian auDNA. If there was a migration from the Steppes into Iran, the Caucasian auDNA in Western Iran would drop by much, much more than 4.63 %, while Gedrosia would never drop by 22.88 %.

This is the *best EVIDENCE* that there was no migration from the Steppes, but from the Armenian Plateau into Iran between Copper and Bronze Age!

----------


## Angela

> The main difference in Eurogenes K15 is much higher "Atlantic" for Sintashta/Andronovo/Srubnaya.
> 
> This "Atlantic" is strange, because both Mesolithic HG and Early Neolithic Anatolian Farmers score it.
> 
> Anatolian and Early European Farmers score a lot of West Med and East Med. Steppe people do not.
> 
> Samara & Karelia EHG don't score "Atlantic", but share "North Sea", "Baltic" & "East Euro" with WHG.


The Eurogenes K15 calculator is obviously much less helpful for these purposes because it includes a very mixed "component" like "Atlantic". 

The Eurasia K14, on the other hand, seems very helpful. In the thousand year period between Yamnaya and Srubnaya, there was significant admixture with a mixed EEF/WHG-SHG population. Those samples from Srubnaya and Sintashta are 40-45% "farmer". (I'm not including the perhaps 40% "southern" ancestry in Yamnaya because I don't know if those people were already "farmers" when they entered the steppe.)




> Tomenable: SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.


I don't see any evidence of that. The admixture analysis is pretty clear that the admixture was with MN type people. Even in the EEF, the "SW Asian" was around, what, 12%? It was there, but in minor percentages. By the MN it had gotten whittled down. Then the further admixture with Yamnaya like people made it disappear. That's all I see happening here. 




> LeBrok:Chalcolithic Anatolia and Armenia is strongly pulled towards Europe/Steppe. It is closer to it than to Iranian Neolithic or CHG. This is what I'm getting from Harappa admixtures too.
> Chalcolithic Iran is also pulled down and left. Down due to Levant/Baloch admixture and left due to Steppe/NE Euro.
> Iran Recent plots with Armenia, again half way to Steppe/Euro from Iranian Neolithic.
> Often I find PCA distances more telling than admixtures.


Chalcolithic Anatolia is certainly different from Neolithic Anatolia, but they weren't pulled toward EHG, were they? Doesn't it seem like they're pulled way up toward Iran Neolithic? Chalcolithic Iran does look like it's pulled some way toward EHG. I don't know about Armenia Chalcolithic. Until we have Neolithic samples from there it's hard to say. Was Neolithic Armenia similar to Neolithic Anatolia or were they always closer to Iran Neolithic?

This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?

----------


## LeBrok

> If you look closer you can see that modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. 
> 
> Modern Iranians still plot MUCH closer to the Neolithic Iran than to Bronze Age Steppe. And VERY close to Chalcolithic Iran. It seems that Iranians didn't change much since the Chalcolithic Iran.


Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?





> What do mean with *'Levant/Baloch*' in the same sentence? You mean because Levant went up & Baloch went down? Baloch is very different from Levant and both have nothing to with each other. Actually because of Baloch Iranians were shifted up north, closer to ancient ANE.


Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.

----------


## Goga

> Isn't there Iran Recent (down pointing triangle) among Armenians?
> 
> 
> Right, I meant Neolithic Levant/SW Asian.


Just look at the little *blue squares* which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
*Blue circles* represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.


Modern population:






And here is the old population:

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> SW Asian and some fraction of Mediterranean came in a separate migration.


I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.

If a culture had, let's say:

Mediterranean ~55
NE Euro ~25
SW Asian ~20 

it would fit better.

Not that this is how it happened, though. I am not doing science now..

I don't know if what you say is mathematically possible because Shintasha has ~19% 'Baloch', but 'Baloch' decreases.

----------


## Goga

> I didn't do the math but that fraction would be more than 2/3 of it.
> 
> If a culture had, let's say:
> 
> Mediterranean ~55
> NE Euro ~25
> SW Asian ~20 
> 
> it would fit better.
> ...


And Shintasha has apparently not much Caucasian admixture. That Baloch decreases is not an issue. Baloch decreases by 22.88 %!!! That's a lot. While Caucasian auDNA in Iron Age Iranians decrease only by 4.63%. How is it possible when Shintasha doesn't have Caucasian at all ?

It has to be other population. Those who mixed with Copper Age Iranians should have at least 40 % Caucasian admixture. And voila: Armenian Chalcolithic (Copper Age) had 41.35 % of Caucasian. That's why Caucasian auDNA in Iranian dropped just by 4 % points !!!

Everything makes sense, from Caucasian auDNA to Baloch/Gedrosia, NE_European, Mediterranean, SW_Asian. Copper Age Armenians are the best proxies who mixed with the Copper Age Iranians. And it makes lots of sense, since both groups are neighboring each other.

Shintasha is absolutely disqualified as a source of Euro ancestry in Iranians. While the Copper Age Armenians are at this moment the best source population!

----------


## Fire Haired14

Other calculators are consistent with the idea of excess Iran Neolithic/CHG ancestry in the Sycthian. Check out this new calculator. Looks very real. It could be from admixture with Yamnaya-types(They still existed after rise of R1a-Z93 folk. A few have been found in Timber Grave R1a-Z93 burials) or anywhere from the Caucasus to Southern Asia. The Sycthian's R1a is definitely from his Bronze age European ancestors and not from Asia.

----------


## LeBrok

> Just look at the little *blue squares* which represent modern Iranians. Modern Iranians still plot closer to Chalcolithic Iran than to Armenia. Modern Iranians are even more shifted up to north than Chalcolithic Iran.
> *Blue circles* represent modern Armenians. Armenians are more shifted toward south.


They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.

----------


## Goga

> They are in between Iran Ch and Armenia Ch/EBA. Definitely today's Iranians are pulled in straight line towards Bronze Age Steppe. From PCA looks like they have mixed about 15% with Bronze Age Steppe, judging by the distance shift. On other hand EHG (2ky before that) were pulled in straight line towards Iranian Neolithic. From the shift distance I would assume about 25% Mix with IN. It means that IN went to Steppe for mixing, IN in Iran wasn't affected. Iranian farmers migrated there.
> Later it reversed and in Bronze Age "Steppe Bronze Age" went to Iran and mixed in, shifting ICh to the left, on the chart.


Of course. This is undeniable.

But so what?

A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians. Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians. There is enough documention for this and if you examine the Y-DNA of Western Iranians/Kurds you will find out that there is also Y-DNA hg. I2a in West Asia. And that hg. I2a is not from Central Asia..

----------


## LeBrok

> Of course. This is undeniable.
> 
> But so what?
> 
> A lot North West Asians (non Iranics) have Steppes admixture. People in Northern Caucasus have much more Steppes ancestry. Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Iran is very minor. And it is from a very different population that you have in mind. *Steppe ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran is obviously from Copper Age Armenians.* Just very little is from the European part of the Steppes that came with the backmigration of the Scythians.


PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.

It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.

----------


## Goga

> PCA chart doesn't agree with it. If Steppe admixture came from CA Armenia, then modern Iranians would be pulled towards CA Armenia. Instead Modern Iranians are pulled towards BA Steppe. This agrees with the theory of Steppe invasion of Middle East during Bronze Age.
> 
> It is interesting how Modern Armenians plot so differently than Copper Age ones. They must have mixed substantially with Syria/Jordan/Arab people. CA Armenians were more like Modern Turkey population.


Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.

Modern day Iranians plot *between* Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.

Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.


I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.

Like I said, modern Western Iranians (Kurds & Persians) have for about ~15 % of Hurrian/Armenian ancestry..

How could that happen in Bronze Age WHEN Copper Age Armenians already had NE_European ancestry...

----------


## Goga

> Huh? I don't see it. PCA is actually in agreement with my point.
> 
> Modern day Iranians plot *between* Copper Age Armenians and Copper Age Iranians.
> 
> Iranians assimilated also many Hurrians that's why modern Iranians shift a little bit more toward the Northern Caucasians that Copper Age Iranians. I'm sure that the Hurrians had also some NE_European ancestry.
> 
> 
> I think that many Copper Age Armenians were assimilated by the Iranid (Aryan) people.
> 
> ...


To make my point more clear here is *Population Spreadsheet for HarappaWorld* for *Caucasian people* + *Kurds* + *Iranians*.

As you can see Caucasians/Hurrians have more NE_European component than Iranians. NE_Europe component has NOTHING to do with Iranians. Only Baloch/Gedrosia is actually the PUREST Iranid component.


As I said to you Western Iranians assimilated many Hurrians/Caucasians. Some of NE_European in Iranians came from the Hurrians/Caucasians, some from Copper Age Armenians and very little directly from Europe with the Scythians

Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

abhkasian
0.33
18.49
69.15
7.62
0.40
0.83
0.42
0.26
0.30
0.71
0.67
0.71
0.02
0.02
0.01
0.07

adygei
0.53
18.38
56.60
16.37
0.58
3.10
1.01
0.30
0.53
0.67
1.70
0.23
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

armenian
0.41
17.07
57.29
5.35
0.10
0.29
0.16
0.26
0.22
0.23
8.21
10.40
0.00
0.01
0.00
0.00

armenian
2.12
18.25
46.35
3.32
0.13
0.72
0.92
1.63
0.07
0.62
10.29
14.55
0.57
0.35
0.11
0.00

armenian
0.52
17.65
56.61
2.95
0.13
0.09
0.09
0.27
0.18
0.20
8.40
12.91
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

azeri
3.03
19.73
45.69
7.84
0.04
3.83
1.41
0.29
0.27
1.36
6.36
9.50
0.12
0.13
0.21
0.17

chechen
0.15
22.44
51.00
20.05
0.40
1.89
0.62
0.30
0.91
0.70
0.87
0.67
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

georgian
0.29
17.46
71.97
6.38
0.12
0.33
0.23
0.32
0.24
0.37
1.10
1.16
0.02
0.00
0.00
0.00

georgian
0.05
19.93
62.40
6.08
0.40
0.26
0.79
0.55
0.18
0.86
1.83
6.38
0.22
0.06
0.00
0.00

iranian
3.93
27.42
38.80
4.14
0.47
0.95
0.52
0.39
0.34
0.48
4.98
15.08
0.14
0.81
0.30
1.26

iranian
3.69
27.14
40.66
5.33
0.54
1.80
1.49
0.65
0.39
1.11
5.17
11.35
0.21
0.30
0.14
0.03

kumyk
0.38
21.20
47.50
16.16
0.57
3.73
2.85
0.36
0.67
0.61
2.82
3.12
0.00
0.00
0.03
0.00

kurd
3.01
25.64
41.13
4.69
0.43
1.29
0.58
0.81
0.62
0.87
6.38
13.37
0.38
0.55
0.24
0.00

kurd
0.75
27.90
44.12
4.87
0.30
0.57
0.28
0.39
0.75
0.51
4.86
13.94
0.12
0.32
0.13
0.19

kurd
1.56
26.52
45.34
5.55
0.32
0.49
0.58
0.38
0.38
0.19
5.67
12.81
0.09
0.05
0.07
0.00

lezgin
0.02
28.15
46.69
20.10
0.14
1.05
0.32
0.14
0.92
0.84
0.74
0.88
0.02
0.01
0.00
0.00

stalskoe
0.07
23.71
40.73
20.55
1.65
2.76
0.81
0.59
1.56
1.34
3.97
1.55
0.20
0.07
0.24
0.21

urkarah
0.27
27.90
43.17
24.08
0.45
1.05
0.00
0.39
1.10
0.90
0.11
0.29
0.06
0.06
0.12
0.05

north-ossetian
0.28
19.35
45.41
13.79
0.97
5.35
3.10
1.41
1.32
0.57
4.12
3.08
0.51
0.00
0.75
0.00

north-ossetian
0.10
18.43
56.38
14.71
0.27
3.91
2.92
0.39
0.55
1.14
1.08
0.10
0.01
0.01
0.00
0.00

----------


## Goga

Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian *Alanians-* have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians

Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian *Lezgins* from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.

Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.


And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component. 


Many of those *Hurrians* were assimilated by the Copper Age Iranid (Aryan) people. So, this is also the source of NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan/Western Iran.


NE_European ancestry in Kurdistan and Western Iran is mostly from the Copper Age Armenians and Hurrians !



So sport, who are you kidding? And stop dreaming and get real ...

----------


## Sile

> Just notice how much East Iranian Ossetians -who are direct descendants of Eastern Iranian *Alanians-* have of that NE_Euro admixture. Those Eastern Iranian speaking Alanians were related to the Scythians
> 
> Notice also how much of NE_Europe admixture in Hurrian *Lezgins* from Dagestan Lezgins are Hurrians people and speak a Northeast Caucasian language (Hurrian). Of all Hurrians they have actually even more Baloch admixture than Kurds/Iranians. I think those Lezgians are heavily Iranized by ancient Medes who lived in Azerbaijan. Genetically Lezgians are even more Iranid than their East Iranian speaking neighbors the Ossetians. Also Hurrian Urkarah from Dagestan are very similar to Lezgin brothers.
> 
> Look also at the Hurrians Chechens. They have also very much Baloch & NE_European ancestry. But like all other Hurrians Baloch is always higher than NE_European ancestry.
> 
> 
> And REAL modern Hurrians don't have much of SW_Asian admixture. Instead they have more NE_Europe component. 
> 
> ...




I hope you are not following this ....below

http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf

The *very basic* principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...............

who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............

.but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it

----------


## Goga

> I hope you are not following this ....below
> 
> http://aschmann.net/BibleChronology/Genesis10.pdf
> 
> The *very basic* principal is that if a haplogroup comes from K-M9 tree it is west-asian and south-asian and hence non-semitic ...........religious fables ..............
> 
> who does not have this marker has a chance to be an origin of the semitic race , so many jews claim they are jewish when their origins say otherwise...............
> 
> .but we all know semitic is now part of a language tree and so anyone ( haplo marker ) can have it


Thank you very much for sharing it. This is new for me, so I don't follow it. I'll read it.

I do agree with you that haplogroups are older than 'races'. I still do believe that Semitic languages were born when some clades of Y-DNA 'E' mixed with some subclades of Y-DNA hg. 'J1'.

Jews are VERY mixed people. Jews from Europe, Africa and Central Asia are all very different from each other. Still they share the same religion and language. But I do believe that deep roots of all Jews lie in the Levant (Judea). There is still something Semitic about all kind of Jews. European Jews are still not really European. They are between Southern Europe and Levant. African Jews are still not the same as black African. African Jews are still more shifted toward the Levant.

----------


## MarkoZ

> This is the same process (for Anatolia Chalcolithic) as for Italians and south Europeans in general, isn't it? Modern populations aren't any more or only slightly more pulled toward WHG and EHG than were MN central Europeans. Most of the pull is due to increased "CHG" type admixture. How is that possible though, if the Indo-Europeans who arrived were mixed EHG/CHG like? I've been asking the same question since these papers came out. Unless, perhaps, by that time the Indo-Europeans who arrived in southern Europe weren't very "EHG" or "WHG" like. Still, they weren't Srubnaya like with all that CHG were they?



Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.

Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: *Lolita Nikolova*. Balkan-*Anatolian* Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the *Baden Cultural* Complex]. 

Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.

----------


## Angela

> Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.
> 
> My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age.
> 
> Ivanova believes that the emergence of the Baden complex, for example, was one the results of these impetuses from the Near East. Recently specialists alluded to similar affinities of the early Baden culture and see the Bulgarian Yunatsite and Ezero cultures as early entry points into Europe from West Asia [source: *Lolita Nikolova*. Balkan-*Anatolian* Cultural Horizons from the Fourth Millennium BC and Their Relations to the *Baden Cultural* Complex]. 
> 
> Irrespective of the precise nature of these migrations, Ivanova's "The Black Sea and the Early Civilizations of Europe, the Near East, and Asia" is a rare gem and the processes she describes might be key for understanding the peopling of southern Europe.


Extremely helpful and interesting, Marko Z. I'm going to see if I can get hold of it. Thanks.

----------


## Dibran

I'm Albanian. R1a1a ydna and H11a mtdna. What do these results mean?

Population 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	4.61
Caucasian	30.35
NE-Euro	26.52
SE-Asian	0.05
Siberian	0.41
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	0.10
American	- 
Beringian	0.24
Mediterranean	29.62
SW-Asian	8.05
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## Tomenable

*Ancient Armenians on Gedmatch:*

kit *M926386* - sample I1631 Armenia *Copper Age*
kit *M340653* - sample I1635 Armenia *Early Bronze Age*
kit *M536324* - sample I1658 Armenia *Early Bronze Age*
kit *M182163* - sample I1656 Armenia *Middle Bronze Age*
kit *M575241* - sample RISE423 Armenia *Middle Bronze Age
*kit *M930063* - sample RISE423 Armenia *Middle Bronze Age**
kit *M497255* - sample RISE397 Armenia *Late Bronze Age
*kit *M691697* - sample RISE407 Armenia *Late Bronze Age*

***RISE423 has been uploaded twice by two different persons.

----------


## Tomenable

*Dodecad K12b:*

Orange = changes associated with Copper Age; red = with Bronze-Iron Age:

https://s10.postimg.org/dymkjnhwp/Metal_Transition.png



*^^^ Armenia is interesting.*

Copper Age Areni-1 (I1631) has a high % of "NorthEurope", then it declines in Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes samples (I1658 and I1635), and then it once again increases in Middle-Late Bronze Age samples (all of Armenian RISE + I1656).

Copper Age Armenian sample (I1631) was from this place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_cave_complex

----------


## Tomenable

*Here are some ancient DNA samples from Asia Minor on Gedmach:* 

Kum4 (from *Kumtepe*) is Indo-European, and has a lot of Steppe admixture:

Age in years
Period/culture
*Gedmatch kit*
Sample ID

~8635
Neolithic
*Z145547*
Tep002

~8350
Neolithic
*M411713*
I1583

~8350
Neolithic
*M754279*
I0746

~8350
Neolithic
*M936428*
I0709

~8350
Neolithic
*M897077*
I0707

~5826
Copper Age
*M091434*
I1584

~5150
Early Bronze
*M300627*
Kum4

----------


## Tomenable

I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:

*GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:*

https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png



Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe




> *Around 3700 BC [~5700 years ago] new settlers came to Kumtepe. The people of this new culture, Kumtepe B*, built relatively large houses with multiple rooms, sometimes a porch. They also practiced animal husbandry and agriculture. The main domestic animals were goats and sheep, bred not only for meat but for milk and wool as well. They knew lead and bronze along with copper. *Shortly after 3000 BC Yassıtepe and Hisarlık (Troy) were colonized probably from Kumtepe.*


*Edit:*

One Neolithic sample - *I0746* - actually scored 2,5% Yamnaya-Afanasievo, but I added it to "other".

All the remaining four Neolithic samples scored zero (-) of Yamnaya-Afanasievo, exactly as expected.

----------


## LeBrok

> I tested those ancient Anatolian samples with this calculator:
> 
> *GedrosiaDNA - Eurasia K14 Neolithic:*
> 
> https://s17.postimg.org/vsy61q40f/St...n_Anatolia.png
> 
> 
> 
> Kum4 = Kumtepe B period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumtepe
> ...


That's what I was getting from Harappa Armenian runs. Sharp increase of Steppe NE European admixture in Armenia and Anatolia since Bronze Age. Yamnaya expansion? Here we can see even earlier encroachment almost 4000 BC! Well, at least in Western Turkey. Kind of bizarre. Perhaps by way of sea?
Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?

----------


## Tomenable

> Kumtepe is also incredible. No SW Asian?


David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture***, but only Steppe and Neolithic EEF - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.

Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain, but they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.

====================

***SW Asian = more or less Levantine.

----------


## LeBrok

> David W. Anthony wrote that Proto-Anatolian speakers came from the Steppe to the Balkans ca. 4200-4000 BC. Those who came to Kumtepe ca. 3700 BC were the same wave of IE migrants who had settled in the Balkans before. This explains why Kum4 had no any SW Asian admixture***, but only Steppe and Neolithic EEF - they mixed with farmers in the Balkans, then moved to Anatolia.
> 
> Yamnaya admixture in Areni-1 is harder to explain, but they didn't have as much of it as Kumtepe B.
> 
> ====================
> 
> ***SW Asian = more or less Levantine.


How would Yamnaya person look in K14?

----------


## LeBrok

These are Harappa runs of Copper and Bronze age Iberians, first two rows. I have found their best match, comparing tens of other genomes, to be Neolithic European Farmers in general, but not exactly. All farmers are high in Mediterranean admixture. Notably, CA Iberian has the highest ever at 63%! The elevated NE admixture of CA Iberian is from WHG, and is higher than in Hungarian Copper Age (next column). I think it is typical for Iberian Neolithic. I wish Gedmatch had Early Neolithic sample from Iberia to confirm.

Now, Iberian Bronze Age (ATP9) has lower Med admixture, and elevated NE Euro and Caucasus. This points to more WHG/EHG admixture. Obviously the CA Iberians mixed with other population to become BA Iberians. Who could have been the source of these changes? I'm presenting two more rans, Bronze Age Hungarian and Unetice Culture samples, in Harappa runs. Seems like BR1 Hungarian is much better fit for Bronze Age invaders into Iberia. It has very low Baloch, which can easily vanish ones it gets to Iberia, unlike Unetice Baloch admixture which is at 12%. 
Baloch is similar to Gedrosia and always existed in Iran, Caucasus and Steppe HGs populations.

I suspect that Hungarian Bronze could have come from West Yanaya or North Cucuteni or from mix of West Yamnaya and Cucuteni, which theoretically should have had lower Baloch, being farther away from Steppe.







CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224
BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary


Unetice I0116, M425717

Population


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15

Baloch
12.21

Caucasian
4.19

Caucasian
7.33

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73

Caucasian
2.27

NE-Euro
24.19

NE-Euro
36.77

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18

NE-Euro
58.33

SE-Asian
0.23

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.23

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
0.88

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
63.33

Mediterranean
55.74

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73

Mediterranean
26.25

SW-Asian
5.14

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.07

W-African
2.69

W-African
0.15

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48

W-African
-




Is Bronze Age Hungary a place where R1b developed their bronze weapons and military prowess before moving South and West? Baden Culture?

----------


## LeBrok

BR1 Hungary


IR Hungary


scythian


Srubna culture, 3.5kya

Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.67

S-Indian
-

Baloch
3.15

Baloch
14.83

Baloch
24.99

Baloch
19.64

Caucasian
14.73

Caucasian
15.12

Caucasian
7.68

Caucasian
6

NE-Euro
46.18

NE-Euro
43.91

NE-Euro
45.27

NE-Euro
56.05

SE-Asian
0.2

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.83

SE-Asian
0.09

Siberian
-

Siberian
2.97

Siberian
6.39

Siberian
0.66

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
1.31

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.18

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
2.03

American
2.85

American
0.2

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
1.4

Beringian
0.15

Mediterranean
31.73

Mediterranean
21.14

Mediterranean
8.62

Mediterranean
16.91

SW-Asian
3.33

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.48

W-African
-

W-African
-

W-African
0.29




Looks like Iron Age Hungarian is a cross of about 50% Bronze Age Hungarian and 50% Scythian, the Steppe new invader. Interestingly there seems to be a connection of IR Hungarian and Srubna Culture, though not directly as Srubna is many centuries older than IR Hungary.

----------


## Joey D

My Harappa results:

1
Caucasian
37.71

2
Mediterranean
24.56

3
NE-Euro
15.28

4
SW-Asian
10.94

5
Baloch
8.96

6
Papuan
0.77

7
W-African
0.76

8
E-African
0.5



*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.34

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.68

3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.31

4
morocco-jew (behar)
12.1

5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
12.89

6
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.74

7
tuscan (hgdp)
14.33

8
tuscan (hapmap)
14.98

9
cypriot (behar)
15.52

10
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.03



*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
1.83

2

65.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.9%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.07

3

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
assyrian (harappa)
@
2.13

4

63.6%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
36.4%
lebanese-druze (haber)
@
2.48

5

66.2%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
33.8%
armenian (yunusbayev)
@
2.55

6

71%
cypriot (behar)
+
29%
french (hgdp)
@
2.56

7

53.4%
italian (hgdp)
+
46.6%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
2.6

8

52.6%
italian (hgdp)
+
47.4%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.78

9

67.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
32.9%
iranian-jew (behar)
@
2.8

10

61.7%
tuscan (hapmap)
+
38.3%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@
2.99



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.035586
2 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.038698
3 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.058087
4 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.093112
5 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.115652
6 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.121329
7 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.160678
8 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.188504
9 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.190425
10 armenian + sephardic-jew + tuscan + tuscan @ 1.206224

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My Harappa results:
> 
> # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
> 1 65.8% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.2% azerbaijan-jew (behar) @ 1.83
> 2 65.1% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.9% georgia-jew (behar) @ 2.07
> 3 65.8% tuscan (1000genomes) + 34.2% assyrian (harappa) @ 2.13
> 4 63.6% tuscan (1000genomes) + 36.4% lebanese-druze (haber) @ 2.48
> 5 66.2% tuscan (1000genomes) + 33.8% armenian (yunusbayev) @ 2.55
> 6 71% cypriot (behar) + 29% french (hgdp) @ 2.56
> ...


Which part of East Sicily? Italian HGDP is North Italian from Bergamo on Harappa.

----------


## Joey D

> Which part of East Sicily? Italian HGDP is North Italian from Bergamo on Harappa.


Four generations, that I am aware of, all from that area immediately east of Parco dell'Etna, from Acireale in the South to Fiumefreddo in the North (close to the border of Provincia di Messina).

----------


## LeBrok

> My Harappa results:
> 
> 1
> Caucasian
> 37.71
> 
> 2
> Mediterranean
> 24.56
> ...


Very storn Caucasian admixture. Strong like in Northern Part or Near East. I wonder if all Sicily is like this?

----------


## Joey D

> Very storn Caucasian admixture. Strong like in Northern Part or Near East. I wonder if all Sicily is like this?


I don't know, but on other forums, like on GEDMatch, my results look typically Sicilian.

I'm really curious to find out more - one reason why I'm here - there's a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm just not quite getting my head around - either these high Caucasus readings are going back to Neolithic migrations, and/or are also carried by the earliest Greek migrations...or they are a hint on the origins of the Sicels - or we are talking about the same thing - that all these groups are actually closely related, and the differences are temporal (which is interesting in its own right).

----------


## LeBrok

> I don't know, but on other forums, like on GEDMatch, my results look typically Sicilian.
> 
> I'm really curious to find out more - one reason why I'm here - there's a piece of the jigsaw puzzle that I'm just not quite getting my head around - either these high Caucasus readings are going back to Neolithic migrations, and/or are also carried by the earliest Greek migrations...or they are a hint on the origins of the Sicels - or we are talking about the same thing - that all these groups are actually closely related, and the differences are temporal (which is interesting in its own right).


Caucasian admixture might as well be normal for Sicily, though it is a bit higher what Neolithic EEF brought to Europe, and invasions of IEs and Northern Europeans would lower it further. In this case there must have been substantial migration from Anatolia or Costal Near East to Sicily since Bronze Age to increase Caucasian admixture. Possibly few events including Greeks, Phoenicians, Jews, etc

Do someone from Eupedia members know where we can find Harappa runs for European countries?

----------


## Joey D

The previous page has a map showing what I assume to be the Harappa plots, and unsurprisingly, Sicily, Malta and Ashkenazi plot very close together.

The closest ancient plot is Chalcolithic Anatolia, which makes some sense.

Then there is this interesting post from MarkoZ on the same page:

"Mariya Ivanova in her study of the pre-historic cultures around the Black Sea stresses that the technology from the Chalcolithic onward tended to spread across what she calls the 'Royal Road' - a corridor connecting the Near Eastern highlands, Anatolia and the Balkans, terminating in the Carpathian Basin. The grasslands north of the Caucasus on the other hand weren't very well suited to the spread of innovation due to their low effective population density and the lack of discernible social organization, the Royal Road thus being the most immediate vector for the dispersal of technology into Europe.

My hypothesis that there was a separate migration emanating out of the Taurus-Zagros range or the surrounding areas (which comprises most hotbeds of human innovation from the Chalcolithic until historic times) into south-eastern Europe, causing the somewhat elevated affinity to the Iran-Caucasus populations found in the Balkans, the Aegean and parts of Italy today. Indeed, the sudden appearances of the various deliberately produced bronze alloys in the European Mediterranean and the hypothetical concomitant migrations could have already had a enough of an impact to cause a substantial shift to the Near East before the onset of the Iron Age. "

----------


## New Englander

#	Population	Percent
1	Caucasian	27.99
2	Mediterranean	25.86
3	NE-Euro	24.09
4	SW-Asian	10.42
5	Baloch	9.4
6	American	0.64
7	SE-Asian	0.49
8	W-African	0.39
9	Papuan	0.25
10	Beringian	0.24
11	S-Indian	0.23


Single Population Sharing:


#	Population (source)	Distance
1	tuscan (1000genomes)	7.36
2	tuscan (hgdp)	7.73
3	tuscan (hapmap)	8.33
4	ashkenazi (harappa)	8.52
5	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	10.95
6	bulgarian (yunusbayev)	12.4
7	romanian-a (behar)	12.79
8	italian (hgdp)	14.03
9	sephardic-jew (behar)	17.35
10	morocco-jew (behar)	17.79
11	turk-aydin (hodoglugil)	18.63
12	romanian-b (behar)	24.65
13	spaniard (behar)	24.67
14	turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)	25.19
15	spaniard (1000genomes)	25.5
16	turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)	26.07
17	french (hgdp)	26.43
18	hungarian (behar)	26.61
19	cypriot (behar)	26.69
20	turk (behar)	27.29


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1 56.2%	french (hgdp)	+	43.8%	lebanese-druze (haber)	@	1.61
2 56.2%	french (hgdp)	+	43.8%	lebanese-christian (haber)	@	1.67
3 56.7%	cypriot (behar)	+	43.3%	british (1000genomes)	@	1.87
4 58.4%	cypriot (behar)	+	41.6%	orcadian (hgdp)	@	1.96
5 77.7%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	+	22.3%	orcadian (hgdp)	@	2.26
6 76.5%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	+	23.5%	british (1000genomes)	@	2.32
7 55.6%	cypriot (behar)	+	44.4%	utahn-white (1000genomes)	@	2.33
8 75.7%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	+	24.3%	utahn-white (1000genomes)	@	2.33
9 75.9%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	+	24.1%	n-european (xing)	@	2.65
10 50.2%	french (hgdp)	+	49.8%	cypriot (behar)	@	2.65
11 54.1%	french (hgdp)	+	45.9%	lebanese-muslim (haber)	@	2.83
12 57.1%	french (hgdp)	+	42.9%	georgia-jew (behar)	@	2.96
13 71.4%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	+	28.6%	french (hgdp)	@	3.08
14 59.5%	french (hgdp)	+	40.5%	druze (hgdp)	@	3.09
15 82.4%	ashkenazi (harappa)	+	17.6%	orcadian (hgdp)	@	3.11
16 81.4%	ashkenazi (harappa)	+	18.6%	british (1000genomes)	@	3.16
17 60.8%	sephardic-jew (behar)	+	39.2%	hungarian (behar)	@	3.19
18 80.9%	ashkenazi (harappa)	+	19.1%	utahn-white (1000genomes)	@	3.3
19 77%	ashkenazi (harappa)	+	23%	french (hgdp)	@	3.38
20 58.6%	romanian-a (behar)	+	41.4%	morocco-jew (behar)	@	3.41

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% french +25% georgia-jew +25% sephardic-jew @ 1.555397




Using 4 populations approximation:
1 ashkenazy-jew + british + georgia-jew + italian @ 0.868904
2 basque + cypriot + iraq-jew + ukranian @ 0.960263
3 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.020719
4 cypriot + iraq-jew + spain-basc + ukranian @ 1.072419
5 basque + cypriot + iranian-jew + ukranian @ 1.098566
6 ashkenazy-jew + assyrian + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.110787
7 ashkenazy-jew + azerbaijan-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.119947
8 ashkenazy-jew + iraq-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.132655
9 georgia-jew + italian + orcadian + sephardic-jew @ 1.140920
10 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.151600
11 ashkenazi + iraq-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.186620
12 iraq-jew + tuscan + tuscan + utahn-white @ 1.206571
13 british + cypriot + french + lebanese-christian @ 1.240409
14 ashkenazi + french + italian + uzbekistan-jew @ 1.245210
15 iranian-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.246615
16 ashkenazy-jew + georgia-jew + hungarian + spaniard @ 1.286285
17 iraq-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.287919
18 ashkenazi + iranian-jew + italian + utahn-white @ 1.292424
19 basque + cypriot + georgia-jew + ukranian @ 1.302049
20 iraq-jew + serbian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.311692

----------


## LeBrok

Did someone see Harappa admixture table done per European countries?

----------


## LeBrok

Where can I find a recent Gedmatch list with descriptions and numbers of ancient samples, please? Any new ancient samples added?

----------


## Joey D

> Modern population:


Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?

On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).

Why do they plot so closely together?

----------


## LeBrok

> Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?
> 
> On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).
> 
> Why do they plot so closely together?


 Without getting into detail (which I might not know, lol) they both have similar source populations, like Levant Neolithic, EEF, some ANE to start with, plus Ashkenazy "formulated" some of their genome in Southern Europe, probably during Roman Empire. With all of this they should fit closer to Turkish Jews, to the right of their current position. However, because they had spent some time in Eastern Europe they got a bit of their genetics and this pulled them more to the left towards Ukraine and Belarus, placing them accidently where Sicilians are. 
Populations don't need to be 100% identical to plot in the same place, sometimes it is accidental. We know that Spanish or Sardinians are not exactly EEF, but they plot like they were.

----------


## Joey D

> Without getting into detail (which I might not know, lol) they both have similar source populations, like Levant Neolithic, EEF, some ANE to start with, plus Ashkenazy "formulated" some of their genome in Southern Europe, probably during Roman Empire. With all of this they should fit closer to Turkish Jews, to the right of their current position. However, because they had spent some time in Eastern Europe they got a bit of their genetics and this pulled them more to the left towards Ukraine and Belarus, placing them accidently where Sicilians are. 
> Populations don't need to be 100% identical to plot in the same place, sometimes it is accidental. We know that Spanish or Sardinians are not exactly EEF, but they plot like they were.


So you have touched on a few possible, inter-related theories:
1. similar source populations, from the Near East, Levant, etc (a bit to that I think)
2. Jewish migrations during the Roman epoch (hmmm, maybe)
3. Coincidental plotting, an historical quirk, different bits of DNA have accidentally pulled them close together (a possibility, except for the myriad opportunities which have existed to cross paths, except for the last 4 or 5 centuries).

On the coincidental plotting, and I have come across this elsewhere doing my own amateur research, would the various GEDMatch tests be able to recognise bits of DNA which are only superficially similar to Ashkenazi? Why do these tests keep throwing up Ashkenazi, not just me, but other Sicilians, in fact, often putting Ashkenazi before Sicilian/Sth Italian/Greek, etc.

So, to my mind, none of this is explaining it all well enough (unless the simple answer is that these tests are not very accurate, in which case, it becomes all a pointless discussion).

----------


## LeBrok

> So you have touched on a few possible, inter-related theories:
> 1. similar source populations, from the Near East, Levant, etc (a bit to that I think)
> 2. Jewish migrations during the Roman epoch (hmmm, maybe)
> 3. Coincidental plotting, an historical quirk, different bits of DNA have accidentally pulled them close together (a possibility, except for the myriad opportunities which have existed to cross paths, except for the last 4 or 5 centuries).
> 
> On the coincidental plotting, and I have come across this elsewhere doing my own amateur research, would the various GEDMatch tests be able to recognise bits of DNA which are only superficially similar to Ashkenazi? Why do these tests keep throwing up Ashkenazi, not just me, but other Sicilians, in fact, often putting Ashkenazi before Sicilian/Sth Italian/Greek, etc.
> 
> So, to my mind, none of this is explaining it all well enough (unless the simple answer is that these tests are not very accurate, in which case, it becomes all a pointless discussion).


Found few genomes to compare. Unfortunately I don't have European populations yet except mine. Nobody cares doing it for Europe I guess.


Polish


Joey D


Ashkenazy


Palestinian


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
 1

S-Indian


S-Indian
1

S-Indian
1

Baloch
 7

Baloch
 9

Baloch
7

Baloch
7

Caucasian
 10

Caucasian
 38

Caucasian
34

Caucasian
39

NE-Euro
 57

NE-Euro
 15

NE-Euro
16

NE-Euro
1

SE-Asian
 1

SE-Asian


SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

Siberian
 1

Siberian


Siberian
1

Siberian
0

NE-Asian
 0

NE-Asian


NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

Papuan
 -

Papuan
 1

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

American
 -

American


American
0

American
0

Beringian
 0

Beringian


Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Mediterranean
 22

Mediterranean
 25

Mediterranean
24

Mediterranean
12

SW-Asian
 1

SW-Asian
 11

SW-Asian
15

SW-Asian
31

San
 -

San


San
0

San
0

E-African
 -

E-African
 1

E-African
1

E-African
5

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy


Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

W-African
 -

W-African
 1

W-African
0

W-African
0

----------


## Joey D

^ Very close fit, I have 4% more Caucasian, the Ashkenazi has 4% more SW-Asian, no wonder I keep returning high Ashkenazi in all these various tests, especially Harappa:

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.34

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.68

3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.31

4
morocco-jew (behar)
12.1

5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
12.89

6
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.74

7
tuscan (hgdp)
14.33

8
tuscan (hapmap)
14.98

9
cypriot (behar)
15.52

10
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.03



*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
1.83

2

65.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.9%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.07

3

65.8%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
34.2%
assyrian (harappa)
@
2.13

4

63.6%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
36.4%
lebanese-druze (haber)
@
2.48

5

66.2%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
33.8%
armenian (yunusbayev)
@
2.55

6

71%
cypriot (behar)
+
29%
french (hgdp)
@
2.56

7

53.4%
italian (hgdp)
+
46.6%
azerbaijan-jew (behar)
@
2.6

8

52.6%
italian (hgdp)
+
47.4%
georgia-jew (behar)
@
2.78

9

67.1%
tuscan (1000genomes)
+
32.9%
iranian-jew (behar)
@
2.8

10

61.7%
tuscan (hapmap)
+
38.3%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@
2.99

----------


## Hauteville

> Just wanted to get this map up again from the previous page, has anyone here ever discussed why Sicilian, Maltese and Ashkenazi plot so close together?
> 
> On this map, Sicilians are plotting closer to Ashkenazi than Greek (Sicilian mid-way between Greek and Turkish Jew).
> 
> Why do they plot so closely together?


In this map the Greeks were from the North of the country, if they use Southern Greeks and Islander they plot very similar of us, you should see it in this map.

image hosting

----------


## LeBrok

Please post your HarappaWorld admixtures. I'm going to compile a table for European countries.

----------


## clarbg

1 NE-Euro 48.21
2 Mediterranean 33.12
3 Baloch 9.66
4 Caucasian 5.36
5 S-Indian 1.75
6 American 0.86
7 NE-Asian 0.46
8 SE-Asian 0.4
9 Papuan 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1 utahn-white (1000genomes) 2.93
2 british (1000genomes) 3.78
3 utahn-white (hapmap) 4.8
4 n-european (xing) 5.26
5 orcadian (hgdp) 6.38
6 french (hgdp) 7.77
7 hungarian (behar) 12.33
8 slovenian (xing) 13.54
9 ukranian (yunusbayev) 18.91
10 spaniard (behar) 19.52
11 spaniard (1000genomes) 20.39
12 belorussian (behar) 22.51
13 romanian-a (behar) 23.81
14 mordovian (yunusbayev) 23.83
15 italian (hgdp) 24.17
16 russian (behar) 25.03
17 russian (hgdp) 25.8
18 spain-basc (henn2012) 26.18
19 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 26.18
20 lithuanian (behar) 27.26

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.6%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 6.4%	puerto-rican (1000genomes) @ 1.98
2 93.3%	british (1000genomes) + 6.7%	romanian-b (behar) @ 1.99
3 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	kharia (reich) @ 2.01
4 97.6%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.4%	santhal (reich) @ 2.01
5 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	ho (chaubey) @ 2.01
6 97.2%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.8%	onge (reich) @ 2.02
7 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	kharia (chaubey) @ 2.02
8 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	savara (chaubey) @ 2.02
9 97.7%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.3%	pulliyar (metspalu) @ 2.02
10 97.6%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.4%	asur (chaubey) @ 2.02
11 97.8%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.2%	paniya (chaubey) @ 2.02
12 97%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 3%	great-andamanese (reich) @ 2.04
13 97.7%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.3%	irula (xing) @ 2.04
14 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	juang (chaubey) @ 2.04
15 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	bonda (chaubey) @ 2.04
16 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	nihali (metspalu) @ 2.06
17 97.4%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.6%	sahariya (reich) @ 2.07
18 95%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 5%	colombian (1000genomes) @ 2.07
19 90.7%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9.3%	spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.08
20 97.5%	utahn-white (1000genomes) + 2.5%	gond (metspalu) @ 2.11

----------


## Joey D

what does utahn mean? is that referring to the state of Utah?

----------


## Angela

> what does utahn mean? is that referring to the state of Utah?


Yes. Years ago, a sample was taken from the Mormon community in Utah, and was often used as a surrogate for "European" ancestry. It's actually a good surrogate for northwestern European ancestry, as the Mormons are basically of British Isles descent, along with some more minor German and Scandinavian ancestry.

----------


## Joey D

> Yes. Years ago, a sample was taken from the Mormon community in Utah, and was often used as a surrogate for "European" ancestry. It's actually a good surrogate for northwestern European ancestry, as the Mormons are basically of British Isles descent, along with some more minor German and Scandinavian ancestry.


But the original population can be what, 200 years old?

----------


## Angela

> But the original population can be what, 200 years old?


That's right. It's a modern sample. It's included in the 1000 genomes set.

Ed.
I'll walk that back a bit. Mormonism came into being in the mid 19th century, but the "colonial" Americans who converted to it had been in the New World from the late 1600s to the mid 1700s. 

Then, in the mid-to-late 19th century the Mormons went on missions to the British Isles and Scandinavia and made converts there. That's a more minor element from what I remember. 

Since then, the ones in Utah have been isolated in terms of intermarriage.

----------


## Joey D

It just seems odd to me that we would bother labelling a community maybe a few hundred years old, when clearly, they have all come from the British Isles and Northern Europe.

I know there's always a temporal question involved with these sorts of tests, whether you go back to pre-history or medieval times, etc, but 2 or 3 centuries when there is a very obvious backstory which predates that period doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.

----------


## Azzurro

My Results

*#**Population**Percent
*1 Caucasian29.78
2 Mediterranean28.81
3 NE-Euro18.17
4 SW-Asian14.68
5 Baloch7.08
6 W-African1.13

Using 1 population approximation:
1 ashkenazi @ 6.947908
2 ashkenazy-jew @ 7.312261
3 tuscan @ 9.810319
4 tuscan @ 10.379184
5 tuscan @ 10.957203
6 morocco-jew @ 11.819502
7 sephardic-jew @ 12.251520
8 italian @ 18.351109
9 turk-aydin @ 20.673489
10 bulgarian @ 20.816389


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 french + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew @ 1.490275
2 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.740170
3 italian + italian + morocco-jew + syrian @ 1.758904
4 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.766780
5 french + morocco-jew + sephardic-jew + sephardic-jew @ 1.769253
6 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.790575
7 italian + italian + lebanese + morocco-jew @ 1.799032
8 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.808096
9 french + morocco-jew + samaritian + tuscan @ 1.857893
10 ashkenazy-jew + samaritian + spaniard + tuscan @ 1.892028

----------


## Angela

^^
Wow, this calculator gives you very poor fits. (Plus, I've never seen a Tuscan reference population show up anywhere near Ashkenazim, much less in between Ashkenazim and Moroccan Jews. Very odd. )

Do other Europeans get such bad "fit" numbers and such an inconsistent gradient of populations ?

Is this calculator better for Near Easterners and Indians than for Europeans?

----------


## New Englander

Edit, this was a double post. Not sure how it happened.

----------


## New Englander

Why is it strange? He is about half way between Jews and Tuscan, although a bit closer to Jews. He is closer to Tuscan than Moroccan Jews though. All this means is that he has a bit higher SW Asian, and a bit lower Caucasian than other Italians, but thats just regional.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> ^^
> Wow, this calculator gives you very poor fits. (Plus, I've never seen a Tuscan reference population show up anywhere near Ashkenazim, much less in between Ashkenazim and Moroccan Jews. Very odd. )


Because of the lack of samples. I mean, not all the populations are covered. His first population ashkenazi is @ 6.947908. So not a best fit.

Tuscan is @ 9.810319, @ 10.379184, @ 10.957203, they are all considerable distances.

In fact using 2 populations approximation, in the same results he is modelled as 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924.

While using 3 populations approximation, he is modelled as 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904 (Italian in this calculator is North Italian from Bergamo HGDP).





> Do other Europeans get such bad "fit" numbers and such an inconsistent gradient of populations ?
> 
> Is this calculator better for Near Easterners and Indians than for Europeans?


Likely, it was made by Zack Ajmal.

----------


## LeBrok

> Because of the lack of samples. I mean, not all the populations are covered. His first population ashkenazi is @ 6.947908. So not a best fit.
> 
> Tuscan is @ 9.810319, @ 10.379184, @ 10.957203, they are all considerable distances.
> 
> In fact using 2 populations approximation, in the same results he is modelled as 50% morocco-jew +50% tuscan @ 3.031924.
> 
> While using 3 populations approximation, he is modelled as 50% italian +25% morocco-jew +25% syrian @ 1.758904 (Italian in this calculator is North Italian from Bergamo HGDP).
> 
> 
> ...


Good observation. He's best fit is obviously missing.

----------


## Azzurro

Thanks for your feedbacks everyone!

@Angela, yes it is off, I believe you are right that it is more catered to Near Easterners, Gedrosia gives me similar results. For me personally I think MDLP is the best calculator, they have K11 and K16 coming out soon should be interesting.

@NewEnglander, my results are always a little bit skewed because my direct paternal line is Jewish-Convert (Neofiti), I am rare for Southern Italians and Sicilians in the sense that I have actual IBD matches with Jews.

@Pax Augusta, I agree with you 100% on this one, too little reference populations and samples used without Southern Italian or Sicilian used it is impossible to give me the best fit.

@Lebrok, like I told Pax, not having Southern Italian or Sicilian is tough to give an accurate prediction.

----------


## Northener

> Found few genomes to compare. Unfortunately I don't have European populations yet except mine. Nobody cares doing it for Europe I guess.
> 
> 
> Polish
> 
> 
> Joey D
> 
> 
> ...


And a NW European Result (mine):

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Ok it are just four figures, but it looks like if in Northern Europe, the HG component is about 55%. To the west the Caucasian component drops down. In my case even below Baloch! Why does the Baloch component pops up higher than the Caucasian? And wat is very remarkable that my Med. is percentages higher than that of Joey (Sicily) or the Ashkenazim! Any explanations? Guesses?

----------


## New Englander

^ I would say you are either Basque or Corsican?

But your clearly not, so maybe Western Europe is classed "Med" in this calculator. I would need to look at the spread sheet. I think it peaks in North Italians and Sardinia. 

Meaning R1b Celts = Med

----------


## Angela

If someone wants to know how much "hunter-gatherer" they have, they should be using a calculator where the reference samples are something like Loschbour and Karelia. (Actually, all our ancestors were once hunter-gatherers, including the ones we inherited from "farmers". It's just that some of them invented agriculture.)

You certainly can't use clusters modal in modern populations* today.*​ North east Europeans, for example, already have some "farmer", as well as "Caucasian" from their Yamnaya ancestry.

----------


## LeBrok

This is all I have so far. Please, whoever posts, with intention to be used in our European stats, make sure your parents and grand parents came from the same region or a country.



Polish


Sicilian


Netherlands


LeBrok


Joey D


Northerner


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
 1

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 -

Baloch
 7

Baloch
 9

Baloch
 9

Caucasian
 10

Caucasian
 38

Caucasian
 6

NE-Euro
 57

NE-Euro
 15

NE-Euro
 55

SE-Asian
 1

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 -

Siberian
 1

Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

Papuan
 -

Papuan
 1

Papuan
 1

American
 -

American
 -

American
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Mediterranean
 22

Mediterranean
 25

Mediterranean
 29

SW-Asian
 1

SW-Asian
 11

SW-Asian
 -

San
 -

San
 -

San
 -

E-African
 -

E-African
 1

E-African
 -

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
 -

W-African
 -

W-African
 1

W-African
 -

----------


## LeBrok

Europeans
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Sicily
Joey D
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
1
0
0
25
11
0
1
0
1

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0




More volunteers please. :) Men and women, kids and grandparents. Just remember to state region or a country of birth of your parents.

----------


## LeBrok

> And a NW European Result (mine):
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 55.26
> 2 Mediterranean 28.6
> 3 Baloch 8.79
> 4 Caucasian 6.09
> 5 Papuan 0.77
> 6 S-Indian 0.49
> ...


Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks. 
Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.

----------


## Northener

> Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks. 
> Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
> Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.


Thank you for your information!!!Gives more insight. I've aDNA which is according to DNA land 97% Northern European. According to my genealogical information all Northern Dutch and a bunch of NW Germans. 2% is Mediterranen Island. That's my Y-DNA E-V22 (I suppose). White ravens in NW Europe. The best guess is that's from a raid in Friesland (1586) of the Spanish army. This consisted of soldiers recruited from places in Southern Europe whit some more E-V22 namely 5% in stead of the average Southern 1%, these are Andalusia, Asturias, Sicily, Naples. But this is a small line from 12 generations ago. But left most probably his mark on my Y-DNA! (But may be there is another cause, still a mystery). But this has not that much impact on my aDNA tot explain a substantial higher Med.. So probably the Mediterranen EEF is in the Netherlands somewhat higher than in Eastern Europe? But also Sicily....that looks weird.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> More volunteers please. :) Men and women, kids and grandparents. Just remember to state region or a country of birth of your parents.


If it's ok with you I can post two or three results of Italians who have 4 grandparents from same region.

----------


## Sile

All from North-East Italy .............including parents , grandparents and great grandparents

my father

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
33.55

2
Mediterranean
32.2

3
Caucasian
19.5

4
Baloch
6.87

5
SW-Asian
6.2

6
S-Indian
0.82

7
SE-Asian
0.54

8
Pygmy
0.32



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
italian (hgdp)
6.88

2
romanian-a (behar)
10.45

3
tuscan (hapmap)
11.67

4
tuscan (hgdp)
12

5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.11

6
tuscan (1000genomes)
12.43

7
french (hgdp)
13.18

8
spaniard (behar)
13.73

9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.86

10
hungarian (behar)
16.76

11
slovenian (xing)
18.73

12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
20.94



.................................................. .....................................

myself

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Mediterranean
32.49

2
NE-Euro
32.28

3
Caucasian
20.13

4
Baloch
8.21

5
SW-Asian
5.89

6
S-Indian
0.85

7
W-African
0.15



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
italian (hgdp)
6.28

2
tuscan (hapmap)
10.65

3
romanian-a (behar)
10.83

4
tuscan (hgdp)
11

5
tuscan (1000genomes)
11.47

6
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
12.37

7
spaniard (behar)
13.8

8
french (hgdp)
14.03

9
spaniard (1000genomes)
14.94

10
hungarian (behar)
17.96

11
slovenian (xing)
19.97





.................................................. ........

one of my sons

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
35.62

2
Mediterranean
31.79

3
Caucasian
19.42

4
Baloch
8.18

5
SW-Asian
4.34

6
NE-Asian
0.38

7
Papuan
0.17

8
W-African
0.11



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
italian (hgdp)
8.7

2
romanian-a (behar)
10.06

3
french (hgdp)
11.69

4
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.93

5
tuscan (hapmap)
13.5

6
tuscan (hgdp)
13.81

7
tuscan (1000genomes)
14.26

8
spaniard (behar)
14.32

9
hungarian (behar)
14.76

10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.62

11
slovenian (xing)
16.82

12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19





.................................................. ..........

my wife

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
35.15

2
Mediterranean
32.16

3
Caucasian
20.17

4
Baloch
7.11

5
SW-Asian
4.17

6
NE-Asian
0.58

7
Papuan
0.46

8
W-African
0.16

9
Siberian
0.06



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
italian (hgdp)
7.8

2
romanian-a (behar)
9.92

3
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11.6

4
french (hgdp)
12.35

5
tuscan (hapmap)
12.67

6
tuscan (hgdp)
12.99

7
tuscan (1000genomes)
13.45

8
spaniard (behar)
14.26

9
hungarian (behar)
15.43

10
spaniard (1000genomes)
15.54

11
slovenian (xing)
17.44

12
utahn-white (1000genomes)
19.84

----------


## Pax Augusta

> All from North-East Italy .............including parents , grandparents and great grandparents
> 
> my father
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> ...


North-East Italy is now covered. :)

----------


## LeBrok

> If it's ok with you I can post two or three results of Italians who have 4 grandparents from same region.


 Of course, indicate regions too.

Europeans
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Sicily
Joey D
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
1
0
0
25
11
0
1
0
1

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
Multiple
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0

----------


## Northener

> Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks. 
> Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
> Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.


LeBrok compared with others it looks like typical N(W)European:
Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.60
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09




Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.


--------------------------------


Least-squares method.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 n-european @ 3.403369
2 utahn-white @ 4.032901
3 utahn-white @ 6.361325
4 british @ 7.447022
5 orcadian @ 7.508000
6 slovenian @ 11.829170
7 hungarian @ 11.970489
8 ukranian @ 13.656387
9 french @ 15.719910
10 belorussian @ 16.431705
11 mordovian @ 18.768982
12 russian @ 19.622629
13 russian @ 20.481249
14 lithuanian @ 21.314024
15 serbian @ 23.040863
16 romanian-a @ 28.488033
17 chuvash @ 28.780073
18 spaniard @ 28.987589
19 spaniard @ 29.979937
20 bulgarian @ 30.920256


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% n-european +50% n-european @ 3.403369

----------


## Hauteville

Sicilian results

1
*
Admix Results (sorted):
**
#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
34.05

2
Mediterranean
25.06

3
NE-Euro
17.84

4
SW-Asian
12.38

5
Baloch
8.57

6
E-African
1.49

7
SE-Asian
0.46

8
Siberian
0.07

9
Papuan
0.05

10
W-African
0.03



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
3.86

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
3.88

3
sephardic-jew (behar)
10.07

4
tuscan (1000genomes)
10.99

5
tuscan (hgdp)
11.62

6
morocco-jew (behar)
11.73

7
tuscan (hapmap)
12.31

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
14.44

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.54

10
cypriot (behar)
18.77

11
romanian-a (behar)
19.68

12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
19.82

13
italian (hgdp)
19.95

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
20.17

15
turk (behar)
21.57

16
lebanese (behar)
21.66

17
turkish (harappa)
22.4

18
lebanese-muslim (haber)
23.96

19
armenian (harappa)
24

20
syrian (behar)
24.1


*

2

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
32

2
Mediterranean
28.04

3
NE-Euro
18.25

4
SW-Asian
11.54

5
Baloch
8.31

6
S-Indian
0.76

7
Papuan
0.43

8
E-African
0.38

9
San
0.29



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.48

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.08

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.16

4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.73

5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.34

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.47

7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.26

8
italian (hgdp)
16.95

9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.05

10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.98

11
romanian-a (behar)
18.86

12
cypriot (behar)
21.39

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
22.72

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
23.1

15
lebanese (behar)
24.49

16
turk (behar)
24.52

17
romanian-b (behar)
24.66

18
turkish (harappa)
25.14

19
armenian (harappa)
26.78

20
lebanese-muslim (haber)
26.92




*3

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
30.11

2
Mediterranean
28

3
NE-Euro
18.32

4
SW-Asian
12.7

5
Baloch
8.87

6
E-African
1.23

7
W-African
0.61

8
Beringian
0.16

9
SE-Asian
0.01



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.28

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.65

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.57

4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.08

5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.64

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.73

7
morocco-jew (behar)
11.85

8
italian (hgdp)
16.66

9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.8

10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.18

11
romanian-a (behar)
18.85

12
cypriot (behar)
22.43

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
23.68

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24

15
lebanese (behar)
24.53

16
romanian-b (behar)
25.06

17
turk (behar)
25.46

18
turkish (harappa)
25.79

19
syrian (behar)
26.91

20
palestinian (harappa)
26.97




*4

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
27.85

2
Mediterranean
27.21

3
NE-Euro
19.67

4
SW-Asian
12.49

5
Baloch
9.03

6
E-African
1.11

7
Papuan
0.56

8
W-African
0.54

9
NE-Asian
0.51

10
Pygmy
0.34

11
Beringian
0.34

12
Siberian
0.31

13
San
0.06



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
7.2

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
8.2

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.3

4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.73

5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.27

6
morocco-jew (behar)
13.48

7
sephardic-jew (behar)
13.63

8
italian (hgdp)
15.58

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
16.8

10
romanian-a (behar)
17.22

11
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
18.2

12
cypriot (behar)
24.38

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
24.61

14
romanian-b (behar)
24.65

15
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
25.07

16
spaniard (behar)
25.65

17
lebanese (behar)
25.8

18
spaniard (1000genomes)
26.26

19
turk (behar)
26.5

20
turkish (harappa)
26.66


*

----------


## Hauteville

Mainland Southern Italians results

Puglia

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
35.34

2
Mediterranean
28.16

3
NE-Euro
15.91

4
SW-Asian
11.53

5
Baloch
7.1

6
Papuan
0.71

7
American
0.62

8
Pygmy
0.34

9
W-African
0.16

10
Siberian
0.11



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
5.19

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.92

3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.32

4
tuscan (1000genomes)
10.58

5
morocco-jew (behar)
11.02

6
tuscan (hgdp)
11.15

7
tuscan (hapmap)
11.76

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
16.32

9
cypriot (behar)
18.3

10
italian (hgdp)
19.68

11
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
20.48

12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
21.24

13
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
21.38

14
romanian-a (behar)
21.68

15
lebanese (behar)
22.72

16
turk (behar)
22.82

17
turkish (harappa)
23.82

18
lebanese-muslim (haber)
24.81

19
armenian (harappa)
24.98

20
syrian (behar)
25.48


*
Basilicata

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
30.34

2
Mediterranean
26.46

3
NE-Euro
19.21

4
SW-Asian
13.57

5
Baloch
9.02

6
E-African
0.66

7
SE-Asian
0.2

8
W-African
0.19

9
San
0.16

10
Papuan
0.13

11
American
0.07



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.27

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.03

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
9.32

4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.88

5
tuscan (hapmap)
10.5

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.73

7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.15

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
16.99

9
italian (hgdp)
17.41

10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.49

11
romanian-a (behar)
18.21

12
cypriot (behar)
22.06

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
22.93

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
23.29

15
lebanese (behar)
23.87

16
romanian-b (behar)
24.65

17
turk (behar)
24.74

18
turkish (harappa)
25.07

19
syrian (behar)
26.08

20
palestinian (harappa)
26.21


*
3 Campania

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
36.26

2
Mediterranean
24.24

3
SW-Asian
14.72

4
NE-Euro
13.51

5
Baloch
9.92

6
E-African
0.7

7
S-Indian
0.39

8
Pygmy
0.2

9
Papuan
0.06



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
4.06

2
sephardic-jew (behar)
6.19

3
ashkenazi (harappa)
7.2

4
morocco-jew (behar)
8.9

5
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
13.64

6
cypriot (behar)
14.56

7
tuscan (1000genomes)
15.53

8
tuscan (hgdp)
16.13

9
tuscan (hapmap)
16.76

10
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
17.25

11
lebanese (behar)
17.31

12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
17.49

13
turk (behar)
18.83

14
turkish (harappa)
19.23

15
lebanese-muslim (haber)
19.68

16
syrian (behar)
19.9

17
armenian (harappa)
20.04

18
palestinian (harappa)
20.06

19
jordanian (behar)
21.11

20
iraqi-arab (harappa)
21.55


*
4 Campania bis

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
31.29

2
Mediterranean
28.33

3
NE-Euro
18.65

4
SW-Asian
12.66

5
Baloch
7

6
S-Indian
0.93

7
SE-Asian
0.55

8
Papuan
0.32

9
E-African
0.18

10
San
0.11



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.1

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.05

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
7.88

4
tuscan (hgdp)
8.49

5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.09

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.41

7
morocco-jew (behar)
11.89

8
italian (hgdp)
16.49

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
17.86

10
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.97

11
romanian-a (behar)
18.7

12
cypriot (behar)
21.9

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
23.84

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24.16

15
lebanese (behar)
24.8

16
romanian-b (behar)
25.04

17
turk (behar)
25.6

18
turkish (harappa)
26.23

19
syrian (behar)
27.22

20
spaniard (behar)
27.31


*

5 Puglia

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.25

2
Mediterranean
27.99

3
NE-Euro
18.4

4
SW-Asian
13.06

5
Baloch
8.82

6
Siberian
0.64

7
American
0.63

8
S-Indian
0.53

9
Papuan
0.3

10
W-African
0.29

11
E-African
0.07



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.56

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
7

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
8.61

4
tuscan (hgdp)
9.08

5
tuscan (hapmap)
9.63

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
12.04

7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.04

8
italian (hgdp)
16.41

9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.97

10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.13

11
romanian-a (behar)
18.69

12
cypriot (behar)
22.97

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
24.09

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
24.38

15
romanian-b (behar)
24.65

16
lebanese (behar)
24.88

17
turk (behar)
25.86

18
turkish (harappa)
26.07

19
spaniard (behar)
26.61

20
syrian (behar)
27.16


*

----------


## Northener

> Your increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area. Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.


Most probably is the Med. component the EEF component in Northwestern Europe. Coming from the Med. Northwestern Europe is by sea more logical than the Balticum and even more inwards Eastern Europe....
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-s...ranean-1.10541

----------


## Northener

> ^ I would say you are either Basque or Corsican?
> 
> But your clearly not, so maybe Western Europe is classed "Med" in this calculator. I would need to look at the spread sheet. I think it peaks in North Italians and Sardinia. 
> 
> Meaning R1b Celts = Med


Thanks New Englander but I don't think so, all other tools like eurogenes etc point me in Northwest Europe (see above Happa places me also in the North), North-sea territory, no connections with the Celts. You can make a spread for the 22 chromosomes and Med is in all those chromosomes, these are chromosomes of people from North-Dutch descent, as you can see only one drops below 10, no single connection with Basque or Corsica:

26.1

28.9

34.7

28.1

28.1

32.9

26.9

27.1

31.0

31.5

21.0

39.7



9.2

34.0

28.2

25.7

20.8

18.8

27.9

27.0

19.3

28.1


Or Celtic area's. I sincerely think this is the EEF component in NW Europe....

Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Northener

And look @ at a previous posting of Le Brok:




> CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224
> BA Iberian, ATP9, M116706
> 
> 
> CO1 Hungary
> 
> 
> BR1 Hungary
> 
> ...


# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.26
2 Mediterranean 28.6
3 Baloch 8.79
4 Caucasian 6.09
5 Papuan 0.77
6 S-Indian 0.49

Compared with those results it fits more or less with the Unetice results, the Unetice culture influenced the Nordic Bronze Age heavily (Eureka!? ;)

----------


## LeBrok

> And look @ at a previous posting of Le Brok:
> 
> 
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 55.26
> 2 Mediterranean 28.6
> 3 Baloch 8.79
> 4 Caucasian 6.09
> ...


Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).

----------


## LeBrok

Thanks guys for posting your admixtures. Here is what we have.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
3
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

Here are the details of Italians that I have. Interestingly a huge diversification in Sicilians.

Italy, NE
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Sile's father
0.82
6.87
19.50
33.50
0.54





32.20
6.20


0.32


2
Sile
 0.85
 8.21
 20.13
 32.28






 32.49
 5.89



0.15

3
Sile's wife

 7.11
 20.17
 35.15

 0.06
 0.58
 0.46


 32.16
 4.17



0.16




















Italy, NE
3
1
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
5
0
0
0
0




Sicily
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Joey D

 8.96
37.71
15.28



 0.77


24.56
10.94

0.50

0.76

2
Hauteville 1

 8.57
 34.05
 17.84
 0.46
 0.07

 0.05


 25.06
 12.38

1.49

0.03

3
Hauteville 2
 0.76
 8.31
 32.00
 18.25



 0.43


 28.04
 11.54
0.29
0.38



4
Hauteville 3

 8.87
 30.11
 18.32
 0.01




 0.16
 28.00
 12.70

1.23

0.61

5
Hauteville 4

 9.03
 27.85
 19.67

 0.31
 0.51
 0.56


 27.21
 12.49
0.06
1.11
0.34
0.54




















Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0




Italy, South
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Puglia

 7.10
 35.34
 15.91

 0.11

 0.71
 0.62

 28.16
 11.53

1.00
0.34
0.16

2
Puglia 2
0.53
 8.82
 29.25
 18.40

 0.64

 0.30
 0.63

 27.99
 13.06

0.07

0.29

3
Basilicata

 9.02
 30.34
 19.21
 0.20


 0.13
 0.07

 26.46
 13.57
0.16
0.66

0.19

4
Campania
 0.39
 9.92
 36.26
 13.51



 0.06


 24.24
 14.72

0.70
0.20


5
Compaina 2
 0.93
 7.00
 31.29
 18.65
 0.55


 0.32


 28.33
 12.66
0.11
0.18






















Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

----------


## Northener

> Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).


Given the place of Northern Netherlands, more westwards, at the North-Sea so open for influences from the Atlantic/ Med sea sounds plausible.

Isn't in the NE Euro not also WHG or SHG included????

The link with Unetice result was a nice eye opener thanks!

----------


## LeBrok

> Give the place of Northern Netherlands, more westwards, at the North-Sea so open for influences from the Atlantic/ Med sea sounds plausible.
> 
> Isn't in the NE Euro not also WHG or SHG included????
> 
> The link with Unetice result was a nice eye opener thanks!


Samara HG


Loschbour


Motala 12


K01, hungary


Villabruna 14KYa

Population


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
 14.33

Baloch
 -

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
 -

Caucasian
 -

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

Caucasian
-

NE-Euro
 75.62

NE-Euro
 77.83

NE-Euro
90.24

NE-Euro
82.06

NE-Euro
74.57

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 0.44

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.65

Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

Siberian
0.07

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
 -

Papuan
 0.84

Papuan
0.57

Papuan
0.2

Papuan
0.31

American
 9.62

American
 -

American
1.58

American
-

American
-

Beringian
 0.15

Beringian
 -

Beringian
0.68

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
 -

Mediterranean
 20.66

Mediterranean
6.83

Mediterranean
17.44

Mediterranean
23.43

SW-Asian
 -

SW-Asian
 -

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
-

San
 -

San
 -

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
 -

E-African
 -

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.07

W-African
 0.20

W-African
 0.17

W-African
-

W-African
0.26

W-African
0.95



To bad we don't have Karelia EHG in Gedmatch. Seams like Motala SHG is almost the source of NE Euro.

----------


## Sile

> Here are the details of Italians that I have. Interestingly a huge diversification in Sicilians.
> 
> Italy, NE
> Population
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> ...


you left my son out ( one of )

----------


## LeBrok

> you left my son out ( one of )


We have you and your wife. Your son contains your both genetics, so we already have his DNA.

----------


## Northener

Brainwave. Aren't we in danger to be in the act of constant relabeling? EEF, HG and Steppe in different blends? What is brand new in or about Happa....Just some considerations!

----------


## Sile

> Brainwave. Aren't we in danger to be in the act of constant relabeling? EEF, HG and Steppe in different blends? What is brand new in or about Happa....Just some considerations!


Harappa is an old 2013 program , concentrating on more middle-east than the other programs .............you should see a lot of jewish in the results as well


like, my uncle via my maternal side ...........whose origins are friulian/istrian/slovenian areas

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
42.57

2
Mediterranean
30.05

3
Caucasian
15.15

4
Baloch
6.42

5
SW-Asian
4.18

6
Siberian
0.81

7
S-Indian
0.53

8
SE-Asian
0.25

9
San
0.04



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
hungarian (behar)
8.14

2
french (hgdp)
8.3

3
slovenian (xing)
10.19

4
n-european (xing)
12.52

5
utahn-white (1000genomes)
12.69

6
romanian-a (behar)
12.79

7
utahn-white (hapmap)
13.65

8
british (1000genomes)
14.46

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.03

10
italian (hgdp)
15.37



1

83.40%
hungarian (behar)
+
16.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
1.28

4

80.10%
slovenian (xing)
+
19.90%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
1.79

16

75.80%
n-european (xing)
+
24.20%
sephardic-jew (behar)
@
2.88

13

72.30%
n-european (xing)
+
27.70%
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
@
2.73

9

70.10%
n-european (xing)
+
29.90%
ashkenazi (harappa)
@
2.46

15

69.90%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
30.10%
ashkenazi (harappa)
@
2.85

5

69.60%
hungarian (behar)
+
30.40%
spaniard (1000genomes)
@
2.22

7

68.20%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
+
31.80%
sardinian (hgdp)
@
2.44

2

67.30%
italian (hgdp)
+
32.70%
lithuanian (behar)
@
1.65

8

66.20%
hungarian (behar)
+
33.80%
italian (hgdp)
@
2.46

20

64.80%
italian (hgdp)
+
35.20%
russian (hgdp)
@
3.01

10

64.40%
slovenian (xing)
+
35.60%
spaniard (1000genomes)
@
2.54

3

63.20%
n-european (xing)
+
36.80%
tuscan (1000genomes)
@
1.74

6

62.70%
slovenian (xing)
+
37.30%
spaniard (behar)
@
2.37

11

61.60%
italian (hgdp)
+
38.40%
belorussian (behar)
@
2.58

12

61.30%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
38.70%
tuscan (1000genomes)
@
2.66

14

60.70%
slovenian (xing)
+
39.30%
italian (hgdp)
@
2.85

18

55.40%
italian (hgdp)
+
44.60%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
@
2.97

19

53.20%
romanian-a (behar)
+
46.80%
british (1000genomes)
@
2.98

17

51%
british (1000genomes)
+
49%
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
@
2.9

----------


## LeBrok

I found populations averages, and some of them are the source of admixtures for this calculator.
Ethnicity
Dataset

S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

paniya
chaubey
3
*84%*
0%
3%
0%
4%
2%
2%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

brahui
hgdp
25
12%
*58%*
12%
2%
1%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
10%
0%
1%
0%
1%

georgian
behar
20
0%
17%
*72%*
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
*80%*
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

iban
xing
25
5%
0%
0%
0%
*87%*
4%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

nganassan
rasmussen
12
0%
1%
1%
3%
0%
*89%*
1%
0%
0%
4%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

japanese
1000genomes
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
*99%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

papuan
hgdp
17
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

colombian
hgdp
7
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

chukchi
rasmussen
15
0%
0%
1%
5%
0%
12%
0%
0%
1%
*80%*
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*60%*
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%

saudi
behar
20
1%
5%
26%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
*58%*
0%
3%
0%
1%

san
hgdp
6
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%
0%
0%

gumuz
pagani
18
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
1%
*93%*
3%
0%

mbutipygmy
hgdp
13
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*
0%

yoruba
1000genomes
5
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
*100%*



And a full list:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dd4/edit#gid=0

----------


## LeBrok

> Harappa is an old 2013 program , concentrating on more middle-east than the other programs .............you should see a lot of jewish in the results as well
> 
> 
> like, my uncle via my maternal side ...........whose origins are friulian/istrian/slovenian areas
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> ...


 Yes, he has 10% more NE Euro than average NE Italian. Must be the Slovenian side of his ancestry.

----------


## LeBrok

We have almost complete set of Italians, except Sardinians.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0




The most interesting thing here, if it comes to Italians, is that Baloch is rising the farther South we go. From 6 in North to 9 in Sicily. There were two sources of Baloch in the past, one was Indo European/ Steppe invasion, second one South Caucasus populations, like Iranian Farmer, CHG, and by Bronze Age infiltrated to Anatolia/Syria area. If the heightened Baloch in South Italy came from Steppe, then we would also see heightened NE Euro, but we don't. NE Euro drops by half but Baloch goes up by 50%. Steppe can be responsible for 2-3% of Baloch in South by not for 9%. It means that someone else brought additional 5-6% of Baloch. Source population needed to have substantial Baloch and Caucasian, and also some SW Asian and Med, and very low NE Euro. Unfortunately we don't have enough ancient samples in GedMatch to find close match for them, but I'm guessing this area will be around Bronze Age Central/East Anatolia and Syria.
Well, Bronze Age migration of Trojans and alike from Anatolia might be revisited. ;) Or possibly, Bronze Age migration and trade by Sea was much bigger than we expected and centered on Near East. The Minoans and their cousins to the East?

----------


## Sile

> Yes, he has 10% more NE Euro than average NE Italian. Must be the Slovenian side of his ancestry.


My Grandmothers line going back to ~450AD was from western istria ............that is what my second cousin told me ...........they then moved along the coast to venice and are part of the 24 first families that settled in the Venice lagoon area



Basegio .......now written as Baseggio

----------


## Sile

> We have almost complete set of Italians, except Sardinians.
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> ...


The only difference between NW and NE is the Med part...........Genoa area is more open to the Med than the Venice enclosed adriatic sea

----------


## Fire Haired14

> Unfortunately we don't have enough ancient samples in GedMatch to find close match for them, but I'm guessing this area will be around Bronze Age Central/East Anatolia and Syria.
> Well, Bronze Age migration of Trojans and alike from Anatolia might be revisited. ;) Or possibly, Bronze Age migration and trade by Sea was much bigger than we expected and centered on Near East. The Minoans and their cousins to the East?


My guess is it came from North of the Levant because our Iron age(This one is from Roman Britain) and Bronze age Levant genomes have less Iran Neo/CHG than modern Levanties(including the non European side of Ashkenazi Jews). My guess is a more Iran Neo/CHG source is needed for Southern Europe. BTw, a Neolithic Iranian had J2b*, J2b2 is consider Balkan and J2b1 Indian.

----------


## LeBrok

> My guess is it came from North of the Levant because our Iron age(This one is from Roman Britain) and Bronze age Levant genomes have less Iran Neo/CHG than modern Levanties(including the non European side of Ashkenazi Jews). My guess is a more Iran Neo/CHG source is needed for Southern Europe. BTw, a Neolithic Iranian had J2b*, J2b2 is consider Balkan and J2b1 Indian.


Generally yes, but it can't be Iron Age movement. If it were, ancient Greeks would have noticed and written about this.

----------


## LeBrok

Now I added Sardinians and Turks from Istanbul. Sardinians look like true EEF with a bit of Steppe in them. One surprise is that they don't carry any Baloch. Sardinia didn't go through Bronze age changes rest of Italy did. 
Istanbul's Med is low, which is very surprising for part of Turkey by Mediteranean sea, SW low too. Very high Caucasian and Baloch points to very strong genetic push from Armenia/Georgia region into whole Anatolia, some time ago. This could have pushed previous occupants of Anatolia into Balkans/ Italy, possibly by means of the sea?

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0


Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0


Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0


Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0


Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0


Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0


Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0


Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0


turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

This is Boreas' run.

Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Boreas
 3
 11
 29
 22

 6
 3



 19
 7





turk
1%
16%
47%
9%
0%
4%
2%
0%
1%
1%
10%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-aydin
1%
12%
38%
14%
0%
6%
4%
0%
0%
1%
14%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-istanbul
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-kayseri
1%
15%
45%
8%
1%
4%
2%
0%
0%
1%
11%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turkish
2%
17%
40%
9%
1%
4%
2%
1%
1%
1%
11%
11%
1%
1%
0%
0%

turkmen
5%
26%
30%
10%
1%
7%
8%
0%
1%
1%
4%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%



To me it looks like almost half of it comes from South Europe giving strong Euro and Med. Other almost half is local Anatolia/Caucasus, giving strong Caucasian. And about 10% of Turkic DNA, Siberian and NE Asian. 
Interesting that your Siberian and NE Asian are in similar proportions to each other as Tuvinian/Tuvan Turks of Central Asia, though in 10 times smaller amount.

----------


## Sile

> This is Boreas' run.
> 
> Population
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> ...


He looks like a pre-turk , ie a Anatolian before the turks moved in around 1100AD

----------


## Pax Augusta

> He looks like a pre-turk , ie a Anatolian before the turks moved in around 1100AD


He has 5.56 Siberian though. Likely some Balkan/Slav admixture as well I think.

----------


## LeBrok

Added Greeks from mainland, islands and Cyprus. Though I'm not sure if from Cyprus are greeks or turks, so I named them Cyprus only.
Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0

Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
7
39
16
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
15
0
1
0
0

turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## New Englander

So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite. 

Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian. So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite.


There is a huge diversification in both Sicilians and South Italians. They can both range from Italian_Abruzzo to Southern_Italian (based on Calabria). I wouldn't focus too much on the difference of one point, but I would look more to the general trend.





> Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian. So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.


I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European.

----------


## LeBrok

> So the average South Italian has about 1 point higher SW Asian than Sicilians, and 1 point lower NE Euro and Balouch? I would have thought the opposite.


 I thought so too, that the farther south you go the more EEF Neolithic Farmer population you find. It means higher Med, SW and Caucasian. Especially Med grew with time in European Farmers, while SW and Caucasian declined. Med was the highest in Europe by Copper Age.




> Also, both groups have a large range on the Caucasian component, usually the higher meaning a bit less Mediterranean and SW Asian.


 This means population change. I think about immigration of about 25% of new population. Bronze Age Anatolia/North Syria/Armenia would fit the bill for source of Caucasian and Baloch.




> So is SW Asian associated with Mediterranean more so than Caucasian? Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.


 IE invasion from North would definitely increased NE Euro and lower Caucasian. Increased SW Asian is harder to explain. Perhaps these Bronze Age Anatolians were rich in SW Asian. All Anatolian samples that I've seen have low SW component. Or it came separately later via phoenicians and other Near Eastern traders or conquerors like Arabs.
Actually, a good proxy for these Bronze Age migrants is Cyprus. They have all the right components.

----------


## New Englander

"I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European."

Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.

----------


## LeBrok

> I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European.


Good observation. Bulgarians are very close to the source of both, and they started with pretty high level of both in Neolithic. This are samples from Hungarians, not too far away.

NE7 Hungary


CO1 Hungary


Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1



Anyway, to get to Bulgarian admixture levels we will need two migrations, in size of quarter to half population change. One from Anatolia/Armenia with very high Caucasian. And one from Steppe with very high NE Euro. Bronze Age Hungarian already shows situation after Steppe migration.
BR1 Hungary


Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
3.15

Caucasian
14.73

NE-Euro
46.18

SE-Asian
0.2

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.18

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
31.73

SW-Asian
3.33

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.48



Now if we get migration from Anatolia, even modern Anatolia, it will increase Caucasian dramatically and add to Baloch and SW Asian, and will also lower Med.

----------


## New Englander

Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?

And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.

----------


## Sile

> "I don't know if less Caucasian means more NE European. For example Bulgarians and Romanians can have both relatively high Caucasian and NE European."
> 
> Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.


Should we even investigate a 1 point difference ! ...............to me they are the same , if there is a 2 point or more difference, then that is another matter

----------


## Sile

> Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?
> 
> And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.


Because humans left Africa for south-asia under Haplogroup F 

F
F1F3F-Y27277
F2 GHIJK 


when haplogroup F split into haplogroup GHIJK the split occurred north of the Zargos mountains...........north of the Alpide belt ( not alpine )

so migration, the bulk , into SW-Asian occurred from north to south

----------


## LeBrok

> Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related?


 These are the original levels when EEF left Anatolia. Next two are EEF from Europe. Caucasian drops due to mixing with WHG, who don't have it. They have Med at 20% so it doesn't affect much level of Med in EEF. Later we even see Med increasing by Copper Age for some reason. We don't know why? Perhaps this is a component which developed here with time, mutations and adaptation?
Anatolian EF


Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
37.64

NE-Euro
0.86

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
47.24

SW-Asian
 14.00

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.27



Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary


Population


Population


S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
-

Baloch
 -

Baloch
-

Caucasian
 30.60

Caucasian
28.27

NE-Euro
 7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
 -

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
 -

Papuan
-

American
 -

American
-

Beringian
 -

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
 49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

SW-Asian
 12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

San
 0.11

San
-

E-African
 -

E-African
-

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
0.05

W-African
 -

W-African
0.35











> I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade?


 SW picks in Natufian Farmer but it didn't penetrate to Anatolia much. Later it drops when population from Caucasus moves in by Bronze Age. 



> While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?


IE/Steppe have very low Caucasian. Caucasian mostly came with Anatolian Farmer, later EEF, and much later in BA with someone we don't know yet. Check post #1 for more info.




> And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.


 Yes. EEF didn't have it at all. Some came with Steppe, some with BA and later migrations from Anatolia/Near East.

----------


## LeBrok

> Should we even investigate a 1 point difference ! ...............to me they are the same , if there is a 2 point or more difference, then that is another matter


 We mostly ignore 1%, but in this case we see a steady trend of 1% up with every group going south. It is one directional and steady trend, not a random up and down. We've found a pattern. That's why it means something.
Now we have fun figuring out what it means.

----------


## Angela

There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles *presently* modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.

Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.

Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis. 

If any of our members did keep a copy, it would be helpful if you could post it. 

Oh, there wasn't one Neolithic wave and then nothing else until the Bronze Age. There seem to have been a few waves of migrations. One pre-pottery Neolithic, one pottery Neolithic. One perhaps closer to the Copper Age. One of the later waves might have brought the J2 and pre-E-V13 found in Sopot and Lengyel?

Anyway, that's how I see it.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?


Roman slave trade? Just saying, but SW Asian is also found in Finnish, Germans, French, Spaniards, Romanians, Austrians, Hungarians, Slovenians, Croats, Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbians, Albanians, Sardinians. I am listing the ones that come to mind only. 

A SW Asian component is spread in Europe at least since the Chalcolithic.




> I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well.


Not true, Kurds have 14% on average, so more than most Italians. Turkish, who are pretty varied, range from 7 to 13% with the latter closer to their average.




> Well Im speaking for South Italians and Sicilians specifically.


So what you said could only go well for the Italian cline. But everything needs to be set within the context of a broader perspective in my opinion.

----------


## Angela

There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles *presently* modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.

Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.

Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis. 

If any of our members did keep a copy, it would be helpful if you could post it. 

Anyway, that's how I see it.

----------


## Boreas

> This is Boreas' run.
> 
> Population
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> ...


Let me give up all results and also my bro's

Mine:
S-Indian
2.78

Baloch
11.05

Caucasian
29.17

NE-Euro
21.96

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
5.56

NE-Asian
2.78

Papuan
0.38

American
0.05

Beringian
0.47

Mediterranean
18.64

SW-Asian
6.72

San
0.14

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.29

W-African
-



My Bro:
Population


S-Indian
2.19

Baloch
10.07

Caucasian
28.16

NE-Euro
20.57

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
4.12

NE-Asian
4.50

Papuan
0.68

American
0.06

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
21.83

SW-Asian
7.40

San
0.16

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.25

W-African
-



Less Anatolian, more Balkan and Med, I guess I am not like average Turk

----------


## LeBrok

> There is a problem with using an admixture calculator's modern "clusters" to trace ancient movements, other than in the broadest and most general sense. Northeast Euro contains Med. Caucasian includes other layers. These are just geographic descriptions of the alleles *presently* modal in those areas. It's not the same as seeing what percentage of a modern group can be attributed to Satsurblia, or LBK, or even MN etc.


It is good enough to play with it for fun. Comparison samples to their contemporaries is rather precise, but much less through time with new mutations and drifting complicates things.




> Also, you can't use modern Turks (and their percentages of these modern "clusters") as a proxy population for any group that would have moved into southern Europe from the east. There have continued to be large population movements across the whole Near East since the Bronze Age. Modern Anatolians, for example, have from 6-12% Siberian/East Asian etc. from the movement of Turkic populations into Anatolia only within the last 1000 years. That would necessarily have lowered their percentages of other components. That's only one example.


Aside of Siberian admixture, modern Turk was just example who we need to look up in the past for the source. Someone alike but 4 ky older without Syberian and NE Asian. Whoever it was in Bronze Age, I'm guessing, modern Turks have huge genetic continuity with them.




> Specifically, to the best of my recollection, some of the modelers at anthrogenica looking closely at the Near Eastern Copper Age and Bronze Age samples found that after the Neolithic there was a movement of a more heavily SW Asian "like" population north and east across the region. This may be closer to the population that moved into southern Europe. I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, I didn't save a copy of the analysis.


 I'm sure there were movements of populations in Neolithic Europe, but by looking at admixtures, the movements were of local "stock" only. No new admixtures popping up, or dramatic changes, or rise of Near Eastern admixtures like Caucasian, SW Asian and Baloch indicating migration from Near East or Anatolia. Till Bronze Age when we see huge jump of Steppe admixtures. If there were bigger movements, Hungarian area was insulated, or cultural achievements and changes were introduced only by small traveling artisan groups, small bands, nothing dramatic.

Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary


NE7 Hungary


CO1 Hungary


BR1 Hungary


Population


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
 -

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
3.15

Caucasian
 30.60

Caucasian
28.27

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
14.73

NE-Euro
 7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
46.18

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.2

Siberian
 -

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
 -

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.18

American
 -

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
 -

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
 49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
31.73

SW-Asian
 12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
3.33

San
 0.11

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
 -

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
0.05

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
 -

W-African
0.35

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1

W-African
0.48

----------


## Angela

> It is good enough to play with it for fun. Comparison samples to their contemporaries is rather precise, but much less through time with new mutations and drifting complicates things.
> 
> Aside of Siberian admixture, modern Turk was just example who we need to look up in the past for the source. Someone alike but 4 ky older without Syberian and NE Asian. Whoever it was in Bronze Age, I'm guessing, modern Turks have huge genetic continuity with them.
> 
> I'm sure there were movements of populations in Neolithic Europe, but by looking at admixtures, the movements were of local "stock" only. No new admixtures popping up, or dramatic changes, or rise of Near Eastern admixtures like Caucasian, SW Asian and Baloch indicating migration from Near East or Anatolia. Till Bronze Age when we see huge jump of Steppe admixtures. If there were bigger movements, Hungarian area was insulated, or cultural achievements and changes were introduced only by small traveling artisan groups, small bands, nothing dramatic.
> 
> Stuttgart
> 
> 
> ...


I know that you understand that these numbers can't be precise in terms of ancient movements, but other people reading these posts may not. (Comparisons between modern populations are a different story, of course.) 

I agree that any movement from the east in the Bronze Age would have had more "Caucasian" than the Anatolian farmers. What we don't know, because of the internal migrations within the Near East and from the Arabian peninsula *into* the Near East, is *how much* more "Caucasian", how much "SW Asian", how much "Mediterranean"? I agree that modern Turks have a lot of ancestry from the Bronze Age; I just think our best proxies are and will be ancient samples from the Near East.* 

As for movements into Europe up to and including the Copper Age, we know there were different waves from archaeology. I agree that they were roughly similar people, but your own data in this post does indeed show differences in the percentages of components like SWAsian, Caucasus etc. and I think some of that may come from slight variations in the composition of the different Neolithic waves.

Ed. * Given how much variation there is in Turkey even today, I think it's quite likely that variation existed in the Bronze Age as well.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> Why did the Caucasian components get spread around Europe, while the SW Asian did not, if they are both EEF related? I notice that Turks and Kurds do not have as much SW Asian than Italians as well. Was the SW Asian a direct result of Roman slave trade? While the Caucasian mixture was from much earlier via Bronze age and Indo European?
> 
> And as far as Baloch is concerned, its seems to be around 8% everywhere for the most part.


If you are willing to do that, Germanic admixture can be attributed to slave trade as well.

----------


## New Englander

@Pax Augusta , Not on this run, but Iv seen plenty of GED spread sheets that show Sicilians and South Italians with more SW Asian than Turks and Kurds. it might mean different things on different calculators though, so Im not sure if it would be relevant to Harppa world.

----------


## Angela

> If you are willing to do that, Germanic admixture can be attributed to slave trade as well.


What of all the Gauls (one-third of their entire population), Britons, Spaniards, Greeks, Thracians, Dacians, and on and on. It's always amazed me that certain people think the Romans enslaved only Syrians. Or, that all the slaves taken were sold in Italia; many, perhaps, but not all. Aren't all these ancient dna samples from Britain, for example, who are genetically Levantine or Arabian, or Egyptian, or African proof of that? Nor were all the slaves sold in Italia sold in Sicily and the south. It doesn't really make sense to me. Where is the indication that only slaves from Syria were sent to Italy, and moreover, that they were all sent to the south?



It doesn't matter what we say, however. The same people will continue to claim the same things.

I don't want to be mis-understood, however; some slaves in Italy undoubtedly passed on their dna. It's just more complicated that these kind of people are willing to admit.

----------


## New Englander

^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction. 

But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.

----------


## Angela

> ^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction. 
> 
> But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.


Where is your proof that this happened? Was there some huge slave market in, say, Sicily, where all slaves from the east were sent? 

By contrast, we have a lot of information, including carvings on major triumphal arches in Rome, as well as actual writings, that slaves taken in battle were brought to Rome and marched in the triumphal processions for the conquering general. You can go to the Arch of Titus and look at the depictions of all the Judean slaves. Or you can go and see the depictions of the Dacians, the Gauls, and on and on. 

A certain number were executed, but the rest were sold by the general to slave traders. It's said that Caesar sold so many Gaulish slaves that there was a glut on the Roman market and they brought half the normal going rate. The slave traders then transported them to wherever in the Roman world there was a need for certain types of slaves: strong men for the mines, the galleys, or latifundia in various parts of the Roman world, pretty girls for the brothels. None of the preceding was likely to survive long enough to be manumitted and have offspring. People with specialized skills would be disposed of accordingly. 

People were also sold into slavery, or sold themselves into slavery, including poor farmers in Italia, or captured by pirates, etc. Every town had a slave market and slave dealers. This was a business. They would send the slaves where they could get the best price, where they were needed. Or, if they had been captured in war, they in fact sent them as far away as feasible. Supposedly, many of my own Celt-Liguri were settled in Samnite country. You can see that distance didn't really pose a problem for the Romans. North Africans incorporated into the Roman military machine were sent to the Wall in Britain and stayed there for a long time. By your reasoning they should have been sent to Iberia. Balkan troops were also stationed there.

The immigrants who came to America in the late 19th/early 20th century didn't wind up along the eastern seaboard because it was closer to Europe. They wound up there because middle men hired by factory owners etc. had gone to small towns in Italy and persuaded people to sign up to go to America to work in the factories in the industrial belt in the east, or on the railroads, or, they themselves had heard about these jobs. Scandinavians made the much further trip out to the midwest because cheap land had been advertised to them. The Irish worked on the railroads for the same reason. There's an economic motive for most things if you know anything about history.

Your proposal is sheer speculation unsupported by any shred of data, and, indeed, contradicted by the data we do have. You can continue to pull it out of your hat for eternity, and I'm sure you will. It won't make it any more credible. 

Nor, by the way, does this explain why there are similar percentages of Caucasian in Greece and southern Italy, and, in fact, southern Italians have less Caucasian, Mediterranean, and SW Asian than Greek Islanders. Were all the eastern slaves dumped there? The islands would have sunk under the weight. Nor was there that kind of need there.

Of course, should something come to light that proves differently, that's fine. What difference does it make? I just like my history as objectively interpreted as possible, not agenda driven.

Now, I'm tired of talking about it. I can't believe I got drawn into this dance once again.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> ^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away.


It's not supported by any historical source, and to be honest it doesn't make any sense. Btw slaves were in the entire Roman Empire and in Italy mostly concentrated in Rome.

More than 200 skeletons found in three Cemeteries from Imperial Rome (non-elite Imperial-era cemeteries) have been examined in two reaserches, 2007 and 2016.

From the 2007 paper abstract:




> *We hypothesize that migrants most likely came from higher elevations to the East and North of Rome*. One individual with a higher δ18O value may have come (as a child) from an area isotopically similar to North Africa.


Source: Isotopic evidence for age-related immigration to imperial Rome 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...20541/abstract


In the 2016 paper 1 out of 189 individuals examined is of supposed North African origin. Others come from the Alps.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...e-imperial-era

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> ^ Why cant it be than slaves from Northern and Eastern Europe were more likely to end up in the Italian North, while slaves from the middle east were more common in the South specifically. This could be due to simple geography, you import the slaves that are closet to you, not from farther away. Not saying all slaves ended up in Italy, or in one place to that matter. Nor am I saying only Syrians were enslaved. Im saying maybe the slaves brought in were related to a geographical restriction. 
> 
> But it this way. Most Italians live in Jew Jersey and New York. That does not mean I cannot find them in Wyoming, just that they are less able to make a genetic contribution.


Why 'Middle eastern' admixture has to be attributed to slavery, especially when we know that slaves were quite often local and also quite often imported from the north too. And some 'SW Asian' admixture seems to have already existed in Neolithic Hungary, for example. Besides, some of it can be attributed to 'Phoenicians' too. Also Herodotus writes for example.




> I said as far back as Perseus, and I took the matter no further than that, because no one is named as the mortal father of Perseus, as Amphitryon is named father of Heracles. So I used correct reasoning when I said that the Greek record is correct as far back as Perseus; farther back than that, if the king's ancestors in each generation, from Danae daughter of Acrisius upward, be reckoned, then the leaders of the Dorians will be shown to be true-born Egyptians.


That may be wrong but I think we should take it into account. There might be prehistorical flows somewhat like that in Italy too.

----------


## Fire Haired14

So everyone knows the extra CHG/Iran Neo in Europe doesn't only exist in Southern Europe it exists in all of France, some German speaking Central European countries, Moldova/Romania/SW Ukraine, and it's most northern extent might be England. One piece of data one can use to try to deceiver where in West Asia it is from is parental markers(Y DNA, mtDNA). E1b1b and J2 are pretty popular in Southern Europe. This indicates it came from Natufian/Levant Neo+Iran Neo/CHG mixed populations. 

Everyone in the Middle East was that way by 4500-3000 BC so that doesn't narrow it down much. Local popular Mid eastern Y DNA haplogroups in Southern Europe; E-V13 and J2b2, indicates this admixture has been there for a while. Like how local Steppe Y DNA haplogroups indicate Steppe admixture has been in Europe for a while. 

This doesn't indicate it came mostly from Mid Eastern slaves brought to Europe in Roman times, I can't imagine slaves making impact anyways. Plus, as hard as it is to detect, a higher frequency of Mid Eastern-specific mtDNA is documented in Italy and Greece. If enough is found, with high coverage mtDNA, it'll be good evidence it was a migration not sporadic immigration. 

Also btw Italy is one of the few spots in Europe mega Bronze age lineages(R1b, R1a, I2a1b, I1, N1c) don't completely dominate the Y DNA and because of that you do you see a decent amount of Anatolian Neolithic G2a2.

----------


## LeBrok

Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion. 
Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African




















Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0























I would guess that IE Greeks invaders were something like Bronze Age Hungarian. Roughly we would need 1 IE invader to 3-4 locals to make Cypriots look like Greek islanders.

BR1 Hungary


Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
3.15

Caucasian
14.73

NE-Euro
46.18

SE-Asian
0.2

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.18

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
31.73

SW-Asian
3.33

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.48

----------


## Angela

> Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
> Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion. 
> Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> ...


Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)

Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced. 

The thing about Egyptians, which, if my memory serves, was often said about Crete, has been proved incorrect by ancient dna.

This is the population that first hit Crete, perhaps a population that originated in southern Anatolia. Ancient dna should tell us more.

----------


## Hauteville

> Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
> Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion. 
> Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> ...


Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.
Regarding the slight differences of South Italians and Sicilians on average, it has to do with the samples selected and the calculator, the Italian website Ethnopedia use Eutest and the slight difference is 1 point more of Middle East for Sicilians and one point more of East Med for South Italians on average, and 0.5/0.7 point of more African for Sicilians.

----------


## Boreas

*Joey D*

# Population (source) Distance
1 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 5.34
2 ashkenazi (harappa) 6.68
3 sephardic-jew (behar) 9.31
4 morocco-jew (behar) 12.1
5 turk-aydin (hodoglugil) 12.89
6 tuscan (1000genomes) 13.74
7 tuscan (hgdp) 14.33
8 tuscan (hapmap) 14.98
9 cypriot (behar) 15.52
10 turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 17.03
*
New Englander* 

# Population (source) Distance
1 tuscan (1000genomes) 7.36
2 tuscan (hgdp) 7.73
3 tuscan (hapmap) 8.33
4 ashkenazi (harappa) 8.52
5 ashkenazy-jew (behar) 10.95
6 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 12.4
7 romanian-a (behar) 12.79
8 italian (hgdp) 14.03
9 sephardic-jew (behar) 17.35
10 morocco-jew (behar) 17.79

*clarbg* 

# Population (source) Distance
1 utahn-white (1000genomes) 2.93
2 british (1000genomes) 3.78
3 utahn-white (hapmap) 4.8
4 n-european (xing) 5.26
5 orcadian (hgdp) 6.38
6 french (hgdp) 7.77
7 hungarian (behar) 12.33
8 slovenian (xing) 13.54
9 ukranian (yunusbayev) 18.91
10 spaniard (behar) 19.52

*Azzurro
*
1 ashkenazi @ 6.947908
2 ashkenazy-jew @ 7.312261
3 tuscan @ 9.810319
4 tuscan @ 10.379184
5 tuscan @ 10.957203
6 morocco-jew @ 11.819502
7 sephardic-jew @ 12.251520
8 italian @ 18.351109
9 turk-aydin @ 20.673489
10 bulgarian @ 20.816389

*Sile*


# Population (source) Distance
1 italian (hgdp) 6.28
2 tuscan (hapmap) 10.65
3 romanian-a (behar) 10.83
4 tuscan (hgdp) 11
5 tuscan (1000genomes) 11.47
6 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 12.37
7 spaniard (behar) 13.8
8 french (hgdp) 14.03
9 spaniard (1000genomes) 14.94
10 hungarian (behar) 17.96

*Northener
*
Using 1 population approximation:
1 n-european @ 3.403369
2 utahn-white @ 4.032901
3 utahn-white @ 6.361325
4 british @ 7.447022
5 orcadian @ 7.508000
6 slovenian @ 11.829170
7 hungarian @ 11.970489
8 ukranian @ 13.656387
9 french @ 15.719910
10 belorussian @ 16.431705



This is mine
*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
11.94

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
12.13

3
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
13.66

4
tuscan (1000genomes)
15.12

5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.2

6
tuscan (hgdp)
15.46

7
romanian-a (behar)
15.65

8
tuscan (hapmap)
15.99

9
nogai (yunusbayev)
18.83

10
sephardic-jew (behar)
19.68






The closest population is close as 2 digits  :Sad: 

By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> The closest population is close as 2 digits


Indeed, you're very distant from any Turkish sample on Harappa, and Harappa has many Tuskish samples, at least 6. 





> By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?


I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them). 





> Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced.


Modern Tuscans have slightly less SW Asian, around 7-8%. Is there any Copper Age Otzi GedMatch id?

----------


## Hauteville

> I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).


A very good explanation of Italian genetic.

----------


## Angela

Sorry, I don't know; I don't really work much with these calculators.

So, the SW Asian would be about 5% for the north, 7-8% for Tuscans, and 11-14% in the south? The southern scores are similar to Greek Islanders? 

Well, from what LeBrok posted above the original Anatolian farmers had 14%, then it went down, but was still 10 and higher, yes?How much did Otzi and Remedello have precisely?

Without ancient dna it's impossible, imo, to know exactly what happened. Admixture with Hungarian Bronze Age would have brought it down again, but how many of them actually crossed the Alps? Were they fewer in number by the time they reached the south? What were they like genetically by the time they got here? Then, what effect did a migration from Anatolia/Aegean have? Clearly, the Gaulish migrations in the north had an effect. What about the Greeks of the first millennium B.C.? What were those Greeks like, anyway? Were they more like Islanders or even Cypriots? After all, that was before the Slavic migrations.

It's very frustrating that there is ancient Dna from so many places and virtually nothing from relevant periods in Italy.

----------


## Northener

> Less Caucasian also means more NE European it seems.


I guess North-Dutch isn't NE Europe but NW Europe......

----------


## LeBrok

> Sorry, I don't know; I don't really work much with these calculators.
> 
> So, the SW Asian would be about 5% for the north, 7-8% for Tuscans, and 11-14% in the south? The southern scores are similar to Greek Islanders? 
> 
> Well, from what LeBrok posted above the original Anatolian farmers had 14%, then it went down, but was still 10 and higher, yes?*How much did Otzi and Remedello have precisely*?
> .


Unfortunately I'm unable to find kit numbers for these guys in GedMatch, or they are not in calculator.

----------


## LeBrok

> Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.


It would be nice to have samples from different parts of mainland, Sparta, Athens and Thessaloniki. Of course from surrounding villagers and not the cities.

----------


## LeBrok

> *Joey D*
> 
> This is mine
> *#*
> *Population (source)*
> *Distance*
> 
> 1
> turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
> ...


For a mixed origin guy like you this doesn't work. By means of whole genome or pca distances you will plot close to these guys but you are quite different.

# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

Boreas
3
11
29
22

6
3
0
0
0
19
7
0

0


turk-aydin
1
12
38
14
0
6
4
0
0
1
14
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

> I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).





> By the way, what is the connection with Italian and Ashkenazy-Jews. They are seeing even in my results. Are they really Ashkenazy or assimilated Sephardi Jews who were assimlated in North America or West Europe Ashkenazy community?


Greek Islanders are the closest match for Ashkenazi of all populations. Ashkenazi have somewhat more NE Euro, obviously from their history in central Europe, otherwise it is almost a perfect fit. Although, they had spent some time in Southern Europe and picked up similarities, big part of this "perfect" fit is accidental. What I mean is that they didn't "grew up" on Greek islands together to mix so much to be identical. Somehow their history of traveling around Europe and picking up various European genetics made them look like Greek Islanders. As we know Greek Islanders have lots of ancient farmer genetics, share a lot of North Near Eastern genetics, and also North European/Steppe genetics. They both share similar amount of various admixtures coming from same ancient populations, but collected through very different ethnic history, different journey through time. 
I think they started as ethnic group looking more like Palestiniens. Once in Europe, they have mixed with locals from South Europe and started to look more like today's Sephardic Jews. And Sephardic genetically look more like Cypriots. This is how proto-Ashkenazi looked 2,000 years ago living in Rome or Greece, I guess.
Later, after picking up North European genes, when living in Germany, Poland or Ukraine they became Ashkenazi as we know them today. As I said, it is an accident that they look like Greek Islanders, especially when looked through rough genetic comparisons of admixtures and pca distances.

# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Greek, Islands, East
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

sephardic-jew
1%
7%
36%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
26%
18%
0%
1%
0%
0%

palestinian
1%
7%
39%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
12%
31%
0%
5%
0%
2%

----------


## Sile

> Unfortunately I'm unable to find kit numbers for these guys in GedMatch, or they are not in calculator.


below is the 9000 year old T1 Ydna ancient sample from Jordan who is stated to have origins from NE-Anatolia

*HarappaWorld Oracle results:*

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit M897077

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Mediterranean
47.24

2
Caucasian
37.64

3
SW-Asian
14

4
NE-Euro
0.86

5
W-African
0.27



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
morocco-jew (behar)
21.8

2
sephardic-jew (behar)
22.91

3
sardinian (hgdp)
23.29

4
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
26.36

5
tuscan (1000genomes)
27.49

6
tuscan (hapmap)
27.57

7
tuscan (hgdp)
27.61

8
ashkenazi (harappa)
28.14

9
cypriot (behar)
29.46

10
italian (hgdp)
31.89

11
lebanese (behar)
35.02

12
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
36.43

13
egypt (henn2012)
36.59

14
morocco-n (henn2012)
36.93

15
lebanese-christian (haber)
37.06

16
lebanese-muslim (haber)
37.07

17
jordanian (behar)
37.11

18
samaritian (behar)
37.14

19
palestinian (hgdp)
37.74

20
lebanese-druze (haber)
37.95



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

65.3%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
34.7%
 druze (hgdp)
 @ 
9.47

2

63%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
37%
 samaritian (behar)
 @ 
10.08

3

63.1%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
36.9%
 lebanese-christian (haber)
 @ 
10.39

4

57%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
43%
 cypriot (behar)
 @ 
10.6

5

63.8%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
36.2%
 lebanese-druze (haber)
 @ 
10.7

6

66.6%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
33.4%
 georgia-jew (behar)
 @ 
11.68

7

67%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
33%
 azerbaijan-jew (behar)
 @ 
11.7

8

66.5%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
33.5%
 iraq-jew (behar)
 @ 
11.73

9

63.7%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
36.3%
 lebanese-muslim (haber)
 @ 
11.86

10

67.6%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
32.4%
 iranian-jew (behar)
 @ 
12.03

11

67.3%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
32.7%
 assyrian (harappa)
 @ 
12.12

12

62.5%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
37.5%
 lebanese (behar)
 @ 
12.49

13

68%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
32%
 iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
 @ 
12.5

14

64.5%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
35.5%
 palestinian (hgdp)
 @ 
12.63

15

68.2%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
31.8%
 armenian (behar)
 @ 
12.64

16

64.2%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
35.8%
 jordanian (behar)
 @ 
12.86

17

65.1%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
34.9%
 syrian (behar)
 @ 
13.01

18

50.6%
 sephardic-jew (behar)
 + 
49.4%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 @ 
13.24

19

74.3%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
25.7%
 georgian (behar)
 @ 
13.31

20

65.5%
 sardinian (hgdp)
 + 
34.5%
 palestinian (harappa)
 @ 
13.31



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% cypriot +50% sardinian @ 12.105780


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% cypriot +25% sardinian +25% sardinian @ 12.105780


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 cypriot + cypriot + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.105780
2 cypriot + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.127272
3 druze + sardinian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.393720
4 druze + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.457637
5 druze + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.614016
6 cypriot + lebanese-christian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.629835
7 cypriot + druze + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.725721
8 samaritian + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.827868
9 cypriot + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 12.941006
10 cypriot + lebanese-druze + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.941720
11 morocco-jew + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.987662
12 cypriot + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 12.997843
13 lebanese-christian + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 13.105631
14 lebanese-christian + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.151128
15 lebanese-druze + sardinian + sardinian + sephardic-jew @ 13.332189
16 lebanese-druze + morocco-jew + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.340966
17 lebanese-christian + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.348898
18 druze + samaritian + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.368311
19 cypriot + lebanese-muslim + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.419899
20 cypriot + lebanese + sardinian + sardinian @ 13.447776



"His migration into Europe or affinity" below

*puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle results:*

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

Kit M897077

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Anatolian_NF
64.54

2
Near_East
17.25

3
Caucasus_HG
9.06

4
European_HG
8.78

5
Sub-Saharan
0.31

6
Oceanian
0.06


 
*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Starcevo_MN_I0174
4.44

2
LBK_EN_I0054
5.52

3
Stuttgart_SG
5.92

4
Iberia_EN_I0412
10.18

5
Hungary_EN_I0495
10.81

6
Iceman_MN_SG
12.2

7
Hungary_CA_I1497
14.59

8
Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489
16.93

9
Epserstedt_MN_I0172
18.76

10
Baalberge_MN_I0560
21.81

11
Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300
21.82

12
Iberia_M_ I0406
23.35

13
Anatolian Neolithic_I0746
38.11

14
Anatolian Neolithic_I0745
38.91

15
Hungary_BA_I1502
43.39

16
Vatya_SG_RISE479
43.58

17
Alberstedt_LN_I0118
45.34

18
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
46.96

19
Halberstadt_LBA_I0099
47.79

20
Unetice_EBA_I0117
48.09


 
*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*


*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1


90.9%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
9.1%
 Anatolian Neolithic_I0745
 @ 
2.11

2


90.7%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
9.3%
 Anatolian Neolithic_I0746
 @ 
2.11

3


70%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
30%
 Stuttgart_SG
 @ 
4.03

4


73.6%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
26.4%
 LBK_EN_I0054
 @ 
4.25

5


89.9%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
10.1%
 Iberia_EN_I0412
 @ 
4.32

6


98.8%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
1.2%
 Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489
 @ 
4.43

7


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 LaBrana
 @ 
4.44

8


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Motala12
 @ 
4.44

9


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Loschbour_SG
 @ 
4.44

10


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Karelia_HG_I0061
 @ 
4.44

11


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Iberia_Mesolithic_I0585
 @ 
4.44

12


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Hungary_HG_I1507
 @ 
4.44

13


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Bichon
 @ 
4.44

14


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Samara_HG_I0124
 @ 
4.44

15


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Samara_Eneolithic_I0433
 @ 
4.44

16


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Afanasievo_SG_RISE511
 @ 
4.44

17


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395
 @ 
4.44

18


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386
 @ 
4.44

19


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00
 @ 
4.44

20


100%
 Starcevo_MN_I0174
 + 
0%
 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549
 @ 
4.44



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Stuttgart_SG +50% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Stuttgart_SG +25% Starcevo_MN_I0174 +25% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.272701
2 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.449605
3 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.494658
4 LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.496826
5 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.641380
6 Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.702582
7 Iberia_EN_I0412 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 4.816988
8 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.044842
9 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.066800
10 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.114842
11 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.179961
12 Iberia_EN_I0412 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.282451
13 Iberia_EN_I0412 + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.285719
14 Iceman_MN_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.658989
15 Hungary_EN_I0495 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.691091
16 Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.826201
17 LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.834327
18 Hungary_EN_I0495 + Stuttgart_SG + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.878696
19 Stuttgart_SG + Stuttgart_SG + LBK_EN_I0054 + LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.898808
20 Hungary_EN_I0495 + LBK_EN_I0054 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 + Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 5.949750


or maybe one prefers his analysis from russian scholars

*Near East Neolithic K13 4-Ancestors Oracle* This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

gedrosia K13 Oracle

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC
70.65

2
CHG_EEF
18.32

3
NATUFIAN
7.07

4
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
2.93


 

Finished reading population data. 145 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Stuttgart @ 14.097481
2 Europe_EN @ 21.053988
3 Europe_MNChL @ 24.525970
4 Anatolia_N @ 29.972769
5 Anatolia_ChL @ 35.950886
6 Sardinian @ 36.162647
7 Sicilian @ 53.648846
8 Albanian @ 54.318569
9 Armenia_ChL @ 54.480675
10 Greek @ 55.342281
11 Jew_Moroccan @ 55.618534
12 Jew_Libyan @ 56.403713
13 Italian_South @ 56.427704
14 Cypriot @ 56.513802
15 Jew_Tunisian @ 56.605286
16 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 57.473385
17 Bulgarian @ 58.344040
18 Levant_N @ 58.826546
19 Romanian @ 61.076805
20 Turkish @ 61.601536

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Anatolia_N +50% Sardinian @ 6.029018


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Anatolia_N +25% Italian_South +25% Stuttgart @ 4.967160


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Anatolia_N + Stuttgart + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 4.389101
2 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Italian_South + Stuttgart @ 4.967160
3 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sardinian + Stuttgart @ 4.990949
4 Albanian + Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Stuttgart @ 5.371789
5 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sicilian + Stuttgart @ 5.390258
6 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Greek + Stuttgart @ 5.596020
7 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Sardinian + Stuttgart @ 5.647186
8 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Ashkenazi + Stuttgart @ 5.831095
9 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 6.029018
10 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Bulgarian + Stuttgart @ 6.497656
11 Europe_EN + Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 6.638557
12 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Moroccan + Stuttgart @ 6.773542
13 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Romanian + Stuttgart @ 6.827176
14 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Italian_South + Stuttgart @ 7.032627
15 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Sicilian + Stuttgart @ 7.050203
16 Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 7.135321
17 Europe_EN + Stuttgart + Stuttgart + Stuttgart @ 7.220714
18 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Cypriot + Stuttgart @ 7.250607
19 Anatolia_N + Anatolia_N + Jew_Tunisian + Stuttgart @ 7.254900
20 Albanian + Anatolia_N + Europe_EN + Stuttgart @ 7.343131

----------


## LeBrok

> below is the 9000 year old T1 Ydna ancient sample from Jordan who is stated to have origins from NE-Anatolia
> 
> *HarappaWorld Oracle results:*
> 
> 23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.
> 
> Kit M897077
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> ...


This one is from Barcin, West Turkey, not Jordan.

----------


## Sile

> This one is from Barcin, West Turkey, not Jordan.


this is what I got ..............is what I got wrong?...not by chart below

Isn't I0707 the T1a ( ydna ) jordanian sample


Edit - you could be right as 

*Ain Ghazal T	
ID	I1707 AG83_5 
Y DNA	T1-PF5610 (xT1a1-Z526, T1a1a-CTS9163, T1a1a-CTS2607, T1a2-S11611, T1a2-Y6031, T1a2a1-P322, T1a3a-Y9189)
Population	Neolithic Farmers
Language	-
Culture	Late Middle PPNB
Date (YBP)	9573 ± 39
House / Location	Ain Ghazal
mtDNA	R0a
Eye Color: Green or Hazel
Hair Color: Brown
Skin Pigmentation	Light
ABO Blood Group	Likely O or B
*

----------


## LeBrok

@ Joey D, your best match is Greek East-Islander. You have a tiny bit more LN farmer that lowers SW Asian and raises Med, I would say. Like your ancestors come from Ancient Greece (before Slavic invasion) who survived in Sicilian village secluded and not mixing since. Or just coincidental mixing of genetics made you look like East Greek islander. ;)
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Joey D

 9
 38
 15



 1


 25
 11

 1

 1

Greek, East
0
 9
 38
 14
 0
 0
 1
 0
 0
 0
 23
 14
 0
 0
 -
 0

Sicily
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Ashkenazy
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

----------


## Sile

> @ Joey D, your best match is Greek East-Islander. You have a tiny bit more LN farmer that lowers SW Asian and raises Med, I would say. Like your ancestors come from Ancient Greece (before Slavic invasion) who survived in Sicilian village secluded and not mixing since. Or just coincidental mixing of genetics made you look like East Greek islander. ;)
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> NE-Asian
> ...


some more from gedmatch ..............I will see on getting more if you are interested

*M825671* I1293 Iran Mesolithic [9100-8600 BC]	HV2	J2a-M410>CTS1085
*M595455* I1670 Iran Chalcolithic [4839-4617 BC]	U3a'c	-
*M902476* I1662 Iran Chalcolithic [4831-4612 BC]	K1a12a	J2a-M410>PF5008
*M155294* I1674 Iran Chalcolithic [3972-3800 BC]	I1c	G1-M342>GG372
*M873184* I1665 Iran Chalcolithic [3956-3796 BC]	U7a	-
*M381564* F38 Iran EIA [971-832 BC]	N1a3a	R1b-Z2103>L584>Y23838
*T637158* I1955 Iran Late Medieval [1430–1485 AD]	U1a1	-

*M417230* I1407 Armenia Chalcolithic [4350-3700 BC]	H	L1a-M27
*M133098* I1409 Armenia Chalcolithic [4229-3985 BC]	U4a	-
*M162111* I1632 Armenia Chalcolithic [4230-4000 BC]	K1a8	L1a-M27
*M734029* I1634 Armenia Chalcolithic [4330-4060 BC]	H2a1	L1a-M27
*M731608* I1633 Armenia EBA [2619-2410 BC] H1u	-
*M340653* I1635 Armenia EBA [2619-2465 BC] X2f	R1b-M343>L389>V1636
*M487536* RISE413 Armenia MBA [1906-1698 BC]	T2c1f	R1b-M343>L389>P297
*M124777* RISE416 Armenia MBA [1643-1445 BC]	K1a17a	E-M84
*M575241* RISE423 Armenia MBA [1402-1211 BC]	T2a	E-M84>CTS1096 (Y5412-, Y14899-, PF6751-)
*M578721* RISE408 Armenia LBA [1209-1009 BC]	I5c	J2b-M102>L283>CTS3681
*M263493* RISE412 Armenia LBA [1193-945 BC]	U4c1a	-
*M062682* RISE396 Armenia LBA [1192-937 BC]	H6b	-
*M497255* RISE397 Armenia LBA [1048-855 BC] T1a2	R1b-Z2103>Z2106>BY3296

*M471006* I1705 Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC]	H14a J1-P58>Z2324
*M682666* I1730 Jordan EBA [2489-2299 BC]	R0a1a	J2b-M205>PF7331

*M987765* Tep001 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7014 BC]	K1a	n/a
*M830273* Tep003 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC]	N1b1a	G2a-P287>P15>PF3159
*M300627* Kum4 Anatolia EBA [3500–2800 BC]	n/a	-

*M733797* RISE109 Unetice EBA Poland [1954-1772 BC]	U4 -
*M453254* RISE154 Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC]	K1a4a1 -
*M239638* RISE586 Unetice EBA Czech Republic [?] K1b1a -
*M484113* RISE139 Unetice Poland [2135-1923 BC]	U2e1f1	n/a
*M069028* RISE145 Unetice Poland [2188-1958 BC]	H6a1b	-

*M483824* RISE598 Lithuania LBA [908-485 BC]	H2a2	R1a-L62>M417

*M669778* RISE1 Corded Ware Poland [2865-2578 BC]	K1b1a1	R1b-M343>L754
*M191719* RISE431 Corded Ware Proto-Unetice Poland [2286-2048 BC]	T2e	R1a-M417

*M631469* RISE349 Hungary MBA [2034-1748 BC]	T2b3 -
*M375165* RISE373 Maros Hungary [1886-1696 BC]	K1a2a -
*M974598* RISE374 Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC]	T2	G2a-P287>P15>PF3177	

*M130094* RISE61 Battle Axe Denmark [2650-2300 BC]	J1c4	R1a-M417>Z284>CTS8401

*M370663* I0419 Potapovka [2200-1900 BC] U2e1h	R1a-M417>Z93
*M630274* I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC]	U5a1c	R1a-M417>Z94

*M214301* RISE595 Montenegro LBA [?] U5a2	-
*M836655* RISE596 Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3	-

*M030961* K8 Bulgaria IA [450-400 BC]	n/a	-
*M212372* P192-1 Bulgaria IA [800-500 BC]	U3b	E-M78>Z1919
*M540478* T2G2 Bulgaria IA [850-700 BC]	HV(16311)	-
*M777769* V2 Bulgaria LBA [1500-1100 BC]	n/a	-

----------


## LeBrok

> Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)


It will be interesting to figure out if these BA Hungarian like (possibly from SW Yanaya/Cucuteni mix, because they completely lack steppe Baloch admixture), were the Italo-Celtic stock or not? We see similar genetic effect, of these BA Hungarian like, on BA Spain. 
Interestingly, we can explain changes in Greek genetics using this BA Hungarian, but there is one caveat. If these BA people from North Balkans spoke Italo-Celtic, how could they speak also such archaic IE like Greek? This probably make BA Anatolian rout for BA Greeks more likely. Well, could have been both, but at the end the Anatolian IE gave Greeks their language.

This Northern Anatolian from Early BA comes handy, and pretty good candidate of IE Greek invasion.
Anatolia EBA 3500-2800
M300627 Kum4

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
12.04

Caucasian
15.06

NE-Euro
41.42

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
4.53

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
13.9

SW-Asian
11.92

San
0.49

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.63

W-African
-

----------


## LeBrok

> some more from gedmatch ..............I will see on getting more if you are interested


All you can get. Thanks Sile.

----------


## Boreas

> Now I added Sardinians and Turks from Istanbul. Sardinians look like true EEF with a bit of Steppe in them. One surprise is that they don't carry any Baloch. Sardinia didn't go through Bronze age changes rest of Italy did. 
> Istanbul's Med is low, which is very surprising for part of Turkey by Mediteranean sea, SW low too. Very high Caucasian and Baloch points to very strong genetic push from Armenia/Georgia region into whole Anatolia, some time ago. This could have pushed previous occupants of Anatolia into Balkans/ Italy, possibly by means of the sea?
> 
> 
> Europeans # of samples S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African 
> Poland LeBrok 1 7 10 57 1 1 0 0 0 0 22 1 0 0 0 0 
> Netherlands Northerner 0 9 6 55 0 0 0 1 0 0 29 0 0 0 0 0 
> Albania Dibran 0 5 30 27 0 0 0 0 0 0 30 8 0 0 0 0 
> Italy, NE 7 0 7 20 34 0 0 0 0 0 0 31 6 0 0 0 0 
> ...



Everybody says Turks are mixed people but that guy from Istanbul is more pure then rest of Italian except Sardinians 





> He has 5.56 Siberian though. Likely some Balkan/Slav admixture as well I think.



Good guess, my grandparents from father side are from Bulgaria. :Good Job: 





> Indeed, you're very distant from any Turkish sample on Harappa, and Harappa has many Tuskish samples, at least 6.



I means that I am wierd combination  :Laughing: 





> I think it's more a generic connection that Ashkenazy Jews have with the south-eastern European cluster. Italians range from the southern-western cluster (north-western Italians who tend to be closer to Iberians and southern French) to the southeastern European cluster (with South Italians and Sicilians who tend to be intermediate between Greek mainlanders and Greek Islanders, tendentially closer to the latter but more north-western shifted than them).



When you think Greek colonies in South Italia, it makes sense (Magna Graciea) However all Sicilain results say that they are more close-2 times to Askenazy Jews then Italians.


I could easily understand, if in the all Italian's results first 5-10 population groups were again from Italia and after that Askhenazy Jews samples were as number 11-13 in South Italians results and Spanish-French samples were at 12-15 in North Italian results.


Italian range is very much larger then other Europe nations. Actually the largest one.








Whatever, it is good to see people who are as far as me to their average national statistics.  :Laughing: 





> For a mixed origin guy like you this doesn't work. By means of whole genome or pca distances you will plot close to these guys but you are quite different.



Yes, in generaly Turks are mix but there is some connection between other Turkish samples

Boreas 3% 11% *29%* 22% 0% 6% 3% 0% 0% 0% 19% 7% 0% 0% 0% 0%


turk-aydin 1% 12% *38%* 14% 0% 6% 4% 0% 0% 1% 14% 9% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk-istanbul 1% 16% *45%* 11% 1% 3% 3% 0% 0% 1% 11% 9% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk 1% 16% *47%* 9% 0% 4% 2% 0% 1% 1% 10% 10% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turk-kayseri 1% 15% *45%* 8% 1% 4% 2% 0% 0% 1% 11% 10% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turkish 2% 17% *40%* 9% 1% 4% 2% 1% 1% 1% 11% 11% 1% 1% 0% 0%


There are high similarity between other Turks just Aydın sample (from West Turkey) is a bit close to me. Clear Caucausian genetic structure. My Anatolian/Causcasian admix is 10-15% below then others and NE-Europe - Med admix are clearly higher. 


I am like a missing link between Anatolian Turks and Balkan People  :Grin: 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And this is my table, which shows mixed nations who have less then 30% in all groups.(as me)


In Americans, Mexican and Colombian; in Old World, Western Central Asian and East Iranic.


kazakh harappa 2% 10% 8% 14% 0% 29% 29% 0% 2% 2% 4% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%
uzbek behar 5% 18% 17% 14% 0% 17% 20% 0% 1% 2% 4% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%
turkmen yunusbayev 5% 26% 30% 10% 1% 7% 8% 0% 1% 1% 4% 7% 0% 0% 0% 0%
hazara harappa 7% 18% 13% 8% 2% 15% 25% 1% 1% 3% 4% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0%
parsi harappa 16% 28% 28% 5% 1% 1% 0% 0% 1% 2% 4% 12% 1% 1% 0% 0%
tajik harappa 6% 19% 16% 15% 0% 12% 20% 1% 2% 3% 3% 1% 1% 0% 0% 0%
hazara hgdp 6% 20% 13% 9% 1% 18% 28% 1% 1% 1% 2% 1% 0% 0% 0% 0%

----------


## Boreas

I guess, I have to learn how to do tables  :Sad:

----------


## Angela

Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?

----------


## Milan.M

> Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?


In most cases there was just changing religion and automaticaly becoming "Turks" or Ottomans.Even today people that are Muslims but speaking Slavic languages consider themselves Turks in regions of Bulgaria,Macedonia etc,most of them don't know a word in Turkish unless they learn it in school,even prior dissolution of ottoman empire(I guess Boreas ancestors immigrated in that period of time) they learned it uppon imigrating into Turkey.Religion=ethnicity in the old system.I wonder what is with Boreas family,whether they were Turks or islamized locals?

----------


## LeBrok

> Everybody says Turks are mixed people but that guy from *Istanbul is more pure then rest of Italian* except Sardinians


What do you mean?




> I could easily understand, if in the all Italian's results first 5-10 population groups were again from Italia and after that Askhenazy Jews samples were as number 11-13 in South Italians results and Spanish-French samples were at 12-15 in North Italian results.


Check my post 232.

----------


## Sakattack

> Samples from Greece are interesting. It is possible that all Greece was like Cyprus before IE Greeks invasion. We just need to subtract 6 points of NE Euro.
> Greek east islands are not too much different, they just have more NE Euro, which dilutes other components. This must be close to state of Greek population before Slavic invasion. 
> Greek mainland, original occupants of mid Bronze Age + IE Greeks + Slavs.
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> ...





> Good call. I've seen some formal stats for Italians that show the best "mixing" population is indeed Bronze Age Hungarian. (If I mis-remembered that, Fire-Haired can correct it.)
> 
> Fwiw, Copper Age Otzi had the same amount of SWAsian as modern Tuscans (about 9-10%, I think). Now, obviously there were genetic changes after that, but it's unlikely, in my opinion, that it was totally wiped out and then totally replaced. 
> 
> The thing about Egyptians, which, if my memory serves, was often said about Crete, has been proved incorrect by ancient dna.
> 
> This is the population that first hit Crete, perhaps a population that originated in southern Anatolia. Ancient dna should tell us more.





> Greek Islanders as always are the most similar of South Italians and Sicilians, but with some differences: we score 6 point less of Caucasian, 3/4 point more of North East European and 1/2 point less of SW Asian. I really like to see Asia Minor Greeks, Egyptian Greeks and Antiochian Greeks' results, they mostly live in mainland Greece nowadays afaik.
> Regarding the slight differences of South Italians and Sicilians on average, it has to do with the samples selected and the calculator, the Italian website Ethnopedia use Eutest and the slight difference is 1 point more of Middle East for Sicilians and one point more of East Med for South Italians on average, and 0.5/0.7 point of more African for Sicilians.


Hi all! 

I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek. I would agree with Lebrok, that maybe the Greek DNA before the IE and the Slavic migration (and the Arvanite during the middle ages I would add) would be kind of similar with the Cypriots' DNA. Cretans are not to so far either, and I would add them to the discussion too. 

The bad thing with this Harappa calculator is that does not include Greek samples. Even though that I have some distance, my closest matches on other calcs (MDLP has relevant many samples) are the Cretans, the Cypriots and the islanders (and of course the other Asia Minor Greeks). For example: 




> 1
> Cretan ( )
> 5.93
> 
> 2
> Greek_Smyrna ( )
> 5.99
> 
> 3
> ...


So, in harappa, my results are the following: 




> S-Indian
> 0.11
> 
> Baloch
> 11.30
> 
> Caucasian
> 46.20
> 
> ...


Having in mind that my genetic make up lacks slavobalkan admixture and probably is to lower degree exposed to the IE, I think that the Pre/ProtoGreeks were kind of similar to me. Most likely Anatolia, Greek peninsula, Crete, Islands Cyprus and maybe Northern Levant were inhabited by populations with the same genetic characteristics.

----------


## Boreas

> Boreas, given that half your ancestry is from Bulgaria, is there any possibility that there was some intermarriage while your ancestors were there? That could possibly explain it, yes?


Unfortunately, I have no information about it but, that would explain my blond haired-blue eyed grandmother.

Maybe a bulgarian girl got into family, maybe they took orpham bulgarian boy or islamisation and Turkification, no idea :Sad 2: 

I have no idea how close them but this is y-25 marker results
ssss.png




> In most cases there was just changing religion and automaticaly becoming "Turks" or Ottomans.Even today people that are Muslims but speaking Slavic languages consider themselves Turks in regions of Bulgaria,Macedonia etc,most of them don't know a word in Turkish unless they learn it in school,even prior dissolution of ottoman empire(I guess Boreas ancestors immigrated in that period of time) they learned it uppon imigrating into Turkey.Religion=ethnicity in the old system.I wonder what is with Boreas family,whether they were Turks or islamized locals?


They came just before end of the WW2 or just after the war, but they are from Turk villages in Central Bulgaria / near Kazanlak. But not mucth Turk left in Central Bulgaria. 




> What do you mean?


I mean Turk-İstanbul sample high Caucausian rate but none of Italian has that much high results in any group(expect Sardinian Med rate)




> Hi all! 
> 
> 
> I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek.


Nice results, just like a puzzle you are fitting in Anatolian Greek structure. 

ΜΑΣΑΛΛΑΧ  :Grin:

----------


## Northener

> Yep, not bad at all. You just have a tiny bit more EEF in you, which gives more Med and Caucasian and less NE Euro (EHG).


There are lies and statistics hahahah

According to this no Unetice at all!

David from Eurogenes/Gedmatch: 

Based on the Global 10 datasheet, which has more Nordic LN samples than the K7 sheet, this is how you come out:

Nordic_LN 64.2 
Bell_Beaker_Germany 35.8 
Corded_Ware_Germany 0.0 
Unetice_EBA 0.0


Any thoughts about this LeBrok?

----------


## LeBrok

> Hi all! 
> 
> I thought that maybe my results would be somehow useful, since I am 100% Cappadocian Greek. I would agree with Lebrok, that maybe the Greek DNA before the IE and the Slavic migration (and the Arvanite during the middle ages I would add) would be kind of similar with the Cypriots' DNA. Cretans are not to so far either, and I would add them to the discussion too. 
> 
> The bad thing with this Harappa calculator is that does not include Greek samples. Even though that I have some distance, my closest matches on other calcs (MDLP has relevant many samples) are the Cretans, the Cypriots and the islanders (and of course the other Asia Minor Greeks). For example: 
> 
> 
> 
> So, in harappa, my results are the following: 
> ...


That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspected proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?

----------


## LeBrok

> That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspecting proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
> I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
> Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?


I've compiled changes in Anatolia, from EN to today. First two samples are from EN one from West Turkey and one from Central South. They are very close to European EEF, EEF has a bit more WHG in them. There is one Chalcolithic, showing influence of Caucasus and Steppe during Late Neolithic. Forth is from our member Sakatack, very likely like Greek Cappadocia (central Turkey). Chalcolithic Anatolia and Sakattack (Cappadocia) is very close to today's Cyprus genome. (in previous posts).

M897077


M830273 Tep003

M091434 I1584




Anatolian EF
Barcin

Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC]
Anatolian Chalcolithic
Sakattack

Population


Population


Population

Population

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
0.11

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
9.14

Baloch
11.3

Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.07

Caucasian
48.14

Caucasian
46.2

NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
3.95

NE-Euro
6.45

NE-Euro
8.85

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian


Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.16

Siberian
0.61

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian


Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.16

American
-

American
-

American
-

American


Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
0.23

Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
34.67

Mediterranean
26.7

Mediterranean
19.89

SW-Asian
 14.00

SW-Asian
13.19

SW-Asian
9.27

SW-Asian
12.64

San
-

San
-

San
-

San


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African


Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy


W-African
0.27


0.13

W-African


W-African




Here are samples from modern Turkey.

Turkey
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
turk
1
15.71
46.74
8.9
0.33
3.66
2.36
0.29
0.52
0.67
9.83
9.72
0.07
0.11
0.04
0.07

2
turk-aydin
0.86
11.66
38.15
14.31
0.35
6.04
3.98
0.46
0.48
0.68
13.63
8.64
0.09
0.25
0.02
0.4

3
turk-istanbul
1.13
15.51
45.12
10.68
0.53
3.04
3.09
0.38
0.21
0.71
10.66
8.72
0.05
0.11
0.05
0.01

4
turk-kayseri
0.82
15.41
45.47
8.48
0.69
3.55
2.3
0.41
0.34
0.79
11.13
10.48
0.03
0.05
0.02
0.03



They are all much lower in Med and showing more Steppe/Siberian input of Baloch, Siberian, NE Asian, and other NE/Central asian admixtures. I think, this is the change of last 2,000 years, especially since Turkic invasion of Anatolia. My guess is that they gave 10-15% new genetic input in Anatolia.

----------


## Sakattack

> That's amazing, thanks for sharing! You are like Cypriot, the suspecting proxy for Early/Mid Bronze Age population of Greece and Anatolia, just with less SW Asian. Additional SW Asian could have been brought to Cyprus by Phoenicians, or more from original inhabitants, first farmers of Cyprus.
> I'm expecting to see in Copper/Early/Mid Bronze age, replacement or very heavily mixed of population of Anatolia and Greece, with newcomers from East Anatolia/Armenia/and some Steppe mix. This could have been carried farther to Italy and Sicily by Greeks, and Cretans and other islanders before them.
> Other explanation for your extreme likeness to Cypriots is that your ancestors Greeks emigrated to Central Anatolia not long ago and didn't mix much with local population. Some population movement within Turkish Empire, forced resettlement?


I am glad you found my results interesting! 

As for the bold, I am unaware for any movement of my ancestors quite recently. Although, this maaaay be the case a bit further back in time, since there are rumors that the small town from which all of 4 grandparents come, was founded a) from Cretans (there is a much older settlement in Crete with the same name) b) from islanders from Naxos c) from migrants from Istanbul. It is for sure, though, that the town exists from around 1600 (and maybe earlier with other name) in Cappadocia. 

Your interpretation in total sounds like a good call.

----------


## LeBrok

> There are lies and statistics hahahah
> 
> According to this no Unetice at all!
> 
> David from Eurogenes/Gedmatch: 
> 
> Based on the Global 10 datasheet, which has more Nordic LN samples than the K7 sheet, this is how you come out:
> 
> Nordic_LN 64.2 
> ...


 I don't like this Global 10. How can one be sure that EEF farmer part or WHG part of our genome is from Nordic LN or Corded Ware or Unetice genome? Especially when they are all contemporaries carrying same or almost same alleles.
Nordic LN Rise 71 is similar to Corded Ware guys. 

Corded Ware, Germany


Nordic LN, Rise 71
M671253

Population


Population


S-Indian
0.24

S-Indian
-

Baloch
7.51

Baloch
9.29

Caucasian
8

Caucasian
10.55

NE-Euro
47.75

NE-Euro
51.89

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.71

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.97

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
0.08

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
31.31

Mediterranean
27.34

SW-Asian
3.25

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
0.22

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.18

W-African
0.7

----------


## Northener

> I don't like this Global 10. How can one be sure that EEF farmer part of WHG part of our genome is from Nordic LN or Corded Ware of Unetice genome? Especially when they are all contemporaries carrying same or almost same alleles.
> Nordic LN Rise 71 is similar to Corded Ware guys. 
> 
> Corded Ware, Germany
> 
> 
> Nordic LN, Rise 71
> M671253
> 
> ...


Correct he stated that these separations aren't easy to make....

----------


## Sile

Give these Northern-Italians a try

Remedello RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1 - GEDmatch kit T699825 
Remedello RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T135721 
Remedello RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T319214

----------


## Sile

All the remendello samples are similar

*HarappaWorld Oracle results:*23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit T319214

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Mediterranean
52.24

2
NE-Euro
21

3
Caucasian
12.73

4
SW-Asian
10.38

5
W-African
1.95

6
SE-Asian
1.54

7
Pygmy
0.16



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
sardinian (hgdp)
13.6

2
spaniard (1000genomes)
13.98

3
spaniard (behar)
15.01

4
italian (hgdp)
19.26

5
spain-basc (henn2012)
19.41

6
basque (hgdp)
20.01

7
tuscan (hapmap)
23.73

8
tuscan (hgdp)
24.36

9
tuscan (1000genomes)
24.84

10
puerto-rican (1000genomes)
24.88

11
french (hgdp)
26.92

12
morocco-n (henn2012)
29.47

13
tunisia (henn2012)
30.24

14
puerto-rican (bryc)
33

15
ashkenazi (harappa)
33.1

16
morocco-jew (behar)
33.24

17
romanian-a (behar)
33.52

18
algeria (henn2012)
33.53

19
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
33.94

20
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
34.35






2

85.30%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
14.70%
finnish (1000genomes)
@
6.15

4

83.30%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
16.70%
lithuanian (behar)
@
6.73

17

82.90%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
17.10%
chuvash (behar)
@
7.83

7

82.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
17.40%
russian (hgdp)
@
6.79

14

82.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
17.40%
russian (behar)
@
7.41

12

82.20%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
17.80%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
@
7.16

11

81.90%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
18.10%
belorussian (behar)
@
7.05

13

80.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
19.40%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
@
7.27

15

77.50%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
22.50%
slovenian (xing)
@
7.46

16

76.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
23.40%
hungarian (behar)
@
7.52

5

76.40%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
23.60%
orcadian (hgdp)
@
6.76

6

76%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
24%
utahn-white (hapmap)
@
6.77

3

75.80%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
24.20%
n-european (xing)
@
6.7

8

75.10%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
24.90%
british (1000genomes)
@
6.84

9

75%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
25%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
@
6.84

10

69%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
31%
french (hgdp)
@
6.93

20

64.20%
basque (hgdp)
+
35.80%
morocco-jew (behar)
@
9.18

18

62.80%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
37.20%
spain-basc (henn2012)
@
9.03

19

62.60%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
37.40%
italian (hgdp)
@
9.04

1

50.90%
sardinian (hgdp)
+
49.10%
spaniard (1000genomes)
@
5.84

----------


## Pax Augusta

> All the remendello samples are similar
> 
> *HarappaWorld Oracle results:*23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.
> 
> Kit T319214
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> *#*
> ...


No Baloch like the Sardinians but higher NE-Euro component than Sardinians.

----------


## Sile

> No Baloch like the Sardinians but higher NE-Euro component than Sardinians.


Harappaworld NE-Euro = from finland to mordovia

The issue is the high SW-Asian , which equals the arabian peninsula and the sinai in harrappaworld

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Harappaworld NE-Euro = from finland to mordovia
> 
> The issue is the high SW-Asian , which equals the arabian peninsula and the sinai in harrappaworld


SW-Asian most likely arrived from North, Central-East Europe. The other Remedellos samples have much less SW Asian than the one you've posted, around 5-6%, with one of the Remedello sample with 0% of SW Asian. 


- Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary NE6

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	56.96
2	Caucasian	25.18
3	SW-Asian	12.29
4	NE-Euro	5.52
5	W-African	0.06

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	sardinian (hgdp)	9.59
2	tuscan (hapmap)	29.04


- Polgár-Ferenci-hát, Hungary NE1

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	45.75
2	Caucasian	28.27
3	SW-Asian	13.45
4	NE-Euro	12.13
5	W-African	0.35
6	Pygmy	0.05

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	sardinian (hgdp)	16.71
2	tuscan (hapmap)	17.93
3	tuscan (hgdp)	18.19


- Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary NE7

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	56.18
2	Caucasian	19.04
3	NE-Euro	16.69
4	SW-Asian	7.96
5	W-African	0.11
6	San	0.02

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	sardinian (hgdp)	5.97
2	spaniard (1000genomes)	19.63
3	spaniard (behar)	20.33
4	italian (hgdp)	21.86

- Stuttgart, Germany

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	49.46
2	Caucasian	30.6
3	SW-Asian	12.01
4	NE-Euro	7.82
5	San	0.11

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	sardinian (hgdp)	15.17
2	tuscan (hapmap)	22.5
3	tuscan (hgdp)	22.77


- Kompolt - Kigyósér, Hungary NE5

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	56.74
2	Caucasian	23.8
3	SW-Asian	9.92
4	NE-Euro	9.55

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	sardinian (hgdp)	6.01
2	italian (hgdp)	26.27
3	spaniard (1000genomes)	26.58
4	tuscan (hapmap)	26.74
5	spaniard (behar)	27.17
6	tuscan (hgdp)	27.23

----------


## LeBrok

> Give these Northern-Italians a try
> 
> Remedello RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1 - GEDmatch kit T699825 
> Remedello RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T135721 
> Remedello RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T319214





> LeBrok, as per some earlier questions...
> 
> These are the Remedello samples: 
> *GedMatch Number: T699825, T319214, T135721
> 
> **I still haven't found the gedmatch number for Otzi.*


Can't find Otzi either. Here are the Remedellos:

T699825
 4.07

T135721
5.32

T319214
4.66

Remedello Average

Remedello RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1
Remedello RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a
Remedello RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a


Population


Population


Population


Population


S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
 -

Baloch
0

Baloch
0

Baloch
0

Baloch
 -

Caucasian
9.8

Caucasian
10.56

Caucasian
12.73

Caucasian
 11.03

NE-Euro
23.46

NE-Euro
19.3

NE-Euro
21

NE-Euro
 21.25

SE-Asian
0.28

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
1.54

SE-Asian
 0.61

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
 -

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
 -

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
 -

American
0

American
0

American
0

American
  -

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
 -

Mediterranean
65.64

Mediterranean
63.94

Mediterranean
52.24

Mediterranean
 60.61

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
6.11

SW-Asian
10.38

SW-Asian
 5.50

San
0

San
0

San
0

San
 -

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
 -

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0.09

Pygmy
0.16

Pygmy
 0.08

W-African
0.8

W-African
0

W-African
1.95

W-African
 0.92



Pretty good samples except one completely missing SW Asian, which is impossible for EEF. Sample quality issue. At the end I averaged them, to get most likely very good one representative. There is one thousand years temporal spread between oldest and youngest, but I think they represent pretty much same unchanged genome. The differences that they show are more due to incomplete DNA (sample quality) than anything else. Pretty much a solid EEF farmer.
More details in the post below:

----------


## LeBrok

Here are the other European Farmers to compare: 
EN


EN


MN


LN


LN


Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary

NE7 Hungary

CO1 Hungary

CA Iberia, ATP2, M849224

Population

Population

Population

Population

Population

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
30.6

Caucasian
28.27

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
19.26

Caucasian
4.19

NE-Euro
7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
16.74

NE-Euro
24.19

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
0.23

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0.23

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
55.37

Mediterranean
63.33

SW-Asian
12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
8.52

SW-Asian
5.14

San
0.11

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

W-African
0.35

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.1

W-African
2.69




Things to notice:

- Mediterranean admixture increases during Neolithic to 55% in Central Europe to 60% in Italy and Spain. The highest level ever.

- Caucasian admixture is constantly falling during Neolithic to 20% in Central Europe and as little as 5% in Spain and 10% in Italy. 

- All NE- Euro in Neolithic samples come from WHG. It steadily increases during Neolithic to 16% in Central Europe and max 24% in Spain. Higher in South than in Center of Europe is surprising and reversed should be expected. I'm looking for an explanation.

- SW Admixture is also dropping during Neolithic and more in south than in Europe center.



Remedello samples look like typical Mid/Late Neolithic EEF, with a bit of Southern flavour of lower Caucasian admixture and higher Med and NE Euro. The youngest Remedello doesn't show slightest signs of Steppe invasion yet.


Edit: I think the gross of changes happen from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic and stabilise till invasions of Bronze Age. And changes look like mixing in more WHG genome into farmers. Perhaps it took from Early to Mid Neolithic to "vacuum" all of the free living WHG of South and Central Europe. By Mid Neolithic WHG where all gone and changes in Farmer's genome stopped. I think some of the changes could have been from WHG's alleles of better fitness taking hold in farmers, who needed to adapt to European environment.

----------


## Angela

The northeast Euro here is picking up WHG, not steppe. Remedello clusters with Middle Neolithic people despite the fact that the culture exhibits indicia of "steppe" culture. A level of 19% is perfectly normal for a MN culture. See below: 

In PCAs, Remedello clusters with MN cultures like Baalberge.

See also the following from Mathiesen:


What we need to see from ancient dna and not from endless speculating is when the steppe ancestry appears and how high it was...

----------


## Angela

> Here are the other European Farmers to compare: 
> EN
> 
> 
> EN
> 
> 
> MN
> 
> ...


I posted almost the same thing on the problematic samples spin off thread :)

CO1 above is Baden. So, another such case. Gimbutas said it was a steppe culture. It may have a "steppe like" culture, like Remedello, but neither had "steppe ancestry".

The entrance of actual "steppe genes" was patchy in certain areas. I would guess it took a long time for things to become more homogenized.

----------


## LeBrok

> SW-Asian most likely arrived from North, Central-East Europe. The other Remedellos samples have much less SW Asian than the one you've posted, around 5-6%, with one of the Remedello sample with 0% of SW Asian.


As I mentioned in post 259, missing SW Asian in one of Remedello is most likely due to missing parts of DNA in this sample. All of the other Neolithic farmers contain substantial SW, and it came with Anatolian farmer.
M897077
9.65

EN


EN


Anatolian EF
Barcin

Stuttgart


NE1 Hungary

Population

Population

Population

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
30.6

Caucasian
28.27

NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
7.82

NE-Euro
12.13

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
49.46

Mediterranean
45.75

SW-Asian
14

SW-Asian
12.01

SW-Asian
13.45

San
-

San
0.11

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05

W-African
0.27

W-African
-

W-African
0.35



By mid Neolithic Caucasian and SW-Asian dropped by about half. NE-Euro got to 20% due to mixing with WHG. 

Loschbour


K01, hungary, hunter gatherer


Population


Population


S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
-

Baloch
 -

Baloch
-

Caucasian
 -

Caucasian
-

NE-Euro
 77.83

NE-Euro
82.06

SE-Asian
 0.44

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
 -

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
 0.84

Papuan
0.2

American
 -

American
-

Beringian
 -

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
 20.66

Mediterranean
17.44

SW-Asian
 -

SW-Asian
-

San
 -

San
-

E-African
 -

E-African
-

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
-

W-African
 0.17

W-African
0.26



The only question mark is why Med admixture rose to 60% even though it should drop due to lower Med in WHG? Perhaps Med is an admixture which has been developing in Europe during Neolithic? Is based on European genetic drift in Neolithic.

----------


## LeBrok

Is there hunter-gatherer from Karelia on GedMatch?

----------


## Sile

> SW-Asian most likely arrived from North, Central-East Europe. The other Remedellos samples have much less SW Asian than the one you've posted, around 5-6%, with one of the Remedello sample with 0% of SW Asian. 
> 
> 
> - Apc-Berekalja I., Hungary NE6
> 
> Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 Mediterranean 56.96
> ...


what modern areas does SW-Asian represent in genetics?

I was told - all nations in Arabian peninsula plus jordan ...................does not include syria, iraq or kuwait

----------


## Pax Augusta

> what modern areas does SW-Asian represent in genetics?
> 
> I was told - all nations in Arabian peninsula plus jordan ...................does not include syria, iraq or kuwait


The correct question should be: where does SW-Asian component peak among modern populations? Sw-Asian is a just name given by the calculator's creator.

SW-Asian is mostly Natufian/Basal Eurasian component. Likely Natufians were a bit assimilated by the northern Anatolian populations who settled Europe, later known as EEF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

I don't know which is the source, but in many forums it's accredited as the sample of an epipaleolithic Natufian hunter-gatherer from Raqefet Cave in the Levant (12,000-9,800 BCE)


HarappaWorld Oracle results:

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit M041601

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	SW-Asian	53.62
2	Mediterranean	27.39
3	Caucasian	13.98
4	E-African	4.33
5	Papuan	0.68

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	libya (henn2012)	17.73
2	bedouin (hgdp)	21.01
3	saudi (behar)	25.75
4	qatari (henn2012)	26.13
5	egypt (henn2012)	26.78
6	saharawi (henn2012)	28
7	yemen-jew (behar)	28.18
8	moroccan (behar)	28.74
9	mozabite (hgdp)	28.96
10	egyptian (behar)	29.44
11	algeria (henn2012)	29.51
12	yemenese (behar)	31.45
13	morocco-n (henn2012)	33.04
14	palestinian (hgdp)	34.82
15	jordanian (behar)	36.52
16	morocco-jew (behar)	36.72
17	tunisia (henn2012)	37.44
18	samaritian (behar)	39.09
19	sephardic-jew (behar)	39.77
20	lebanese (behar)	40.8

----------


## Angela

From other types of analyses, Mentese seems to be the best fit for the farmers who went to Europe, although all the early Anatolian farmers were pretty similar. 

Maybe that would be a good sample to run.(south/central Anatolia)

From other analysis I've seen they all have a good chunk of Natufian (as Natufian has some "Anatolia Neolithic"), and that makes sense as the earliest evidence of farming is from approximately the border area between Anatolia and northern Syria, and the coastal area near there is also the beginning of the migration route.

We've known for a long time that the Bedouin were a reasonable proxy, although the fit numbers are by no means good.

Even the Bedouin have absorbed some Iran Neolithic etc., as well as SSA.

----------


## Sile

> Give these Northern-Italians a try
> 
> Remedello RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1 - GEDmatch kit T699825 
> Remedello RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T135721 
> Remedello RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - Y-DNA I2a1a1a - GEDmatch kit T319214



More ancient samples in Gedmatch all from Ydna T1

I0795 KAR6 7076 ± 90 years old ..........central Germany ....Gedmatch= M671535

I0797 KAR16a 7087 ± 725 years old..........central Germany ...Gedmatch = M789703

I1707 AG83 9573 ± 39 years old ............Ain Ghazal Jordan....Gedmatch = M632231

----------


## Hauteville

Is there Otzi GEDmatch id available?

----------


## Angela

For comparison purposes here is a qdAdm analysis done by Eurogenes of modern Europeans plus some ancient samples like German Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Unetice etc. It's divided into Barcin Neolithic, Caucasus HG, (which together total a sort of "Near Eastern" component), plus EHG, WHG, and Onge/Nganasan/SSA. I haven't gone back to find it in those huge papers, but this reminds me of the analysis that was done in the Lazaridis and Haak papers.

See:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t#gid=89445169

----------


## LeBrok

> From other types of analyses, Mentese seems to be the best fit for the farmers who went to Europe, although all the early Anatolian farmers were pretty similar. 
> 
> Maybe that would be a good sample to run.(south/central Anatolia)
> 
> From other analysis I've seen they all have a good chunk of Natufian (as Natufian has some "Anatolia Neolithic"), and that makes sense as the earliest evidence of farming is from approximately the border area between Anatolia and northern Syria, and the coastal area near there is also the beginning of the migration route.
> 
> We've known for a long time that the Bedouin were a reasonable proxy, although the fit numbers are by no means good.
> 
> Even the Bedouin have absorbed some Iran Neolithic etc., as well as SSA.


I have one more Anatolian Farmer from Tepecik in South Turkey, North West fringe of Fertile Crescent. It is more Caucasian and less Med. Same people with local variations. Barcin seems to be a better quality sample.

M897077
 9.65

M830273 Tep003
5.17

Anatolian EF
Barcin

Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC]

Population


Population


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
48.07

NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
3.95

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
34.67

SW-Asian
 14.00

SW-Asian
13.19

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.27


0.13

----------


## LeBrok

> More ancient samples in Gedmatch all from Ydna T1
> 
> I0795 KAR6 7076 ± 90 years old ..........central Germany ....Gedmatch= M671535
> 
> I0797 KAR16a 7087 ± 725 years old..........central Germany ...Gedmatch = M789703
> 
> I1707 AG83 9573 ± 39 years old ............Ain Ghazal Jordan....Gedmatch = M632231


Here they are. Not very good quality samples but they fit in ballpark.

EN Germany
5k BC

EN Germany, Karsdorf
5k BC

EN Jordan, .Ain Ghazal
7.5k BC

 M671535
I0795 KAR6

M789703
I0797 KAR16a

 M632231
I1707

Run time
2.88

Run time
3.22

Run time
3.31

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
26.38

Caucasian
22.84

Caucasian
27.79

NE-Euro
8.49

NE-Euro
16.09

NE-Euro
2.52

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
56.16

Mediterranean
48.88

Mediterranean
34.48

SW-Asian
8.97

SW-Asian
11.79

SW-Asian
34.6

San
-

San
-

San
0.51

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

W-African
0.41

W-African
0.1

----------


## LeBrok

> Is there Otzi GEDmatch id available?


 Probably not.

----------


## Sile

> Here they are. Not very good quality samples but they fit in ballpark.
> 
> EN Germany
> 5k BC
> 
> EN Germany, Karsdorf
> 5k BC
> 
> EN Jordan, .Ain Ghazal
> ...



All are different ..........even the 2 Germans have different "migrational " routes...one more Med other more steppe

----------


## brg12007

Heres mine... I'm surprised at how much NE Euro there is..*
Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
34.86

2
Caucasian
25.19

3
Mediterranean
24.76

4
SW-Asian
6.82

5
Baloch
6.22

6
Siberian
1.17

7
Beringian
0.51

8
SE-Asian
0.46



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
romanian-a (behar)
2.66

2
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
3.83

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
12.65

4
tuscan (hgdp)
12.65

5
tuscan (hapmap)
12.83

6
italian (hgdp)
13.2

7
hungarian (behar)
16.35

8
ashkenazi (harappa)
17.32

9
slovenian (xing)
17.77

10
french (hgdp)
19.57

11
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
20.74

12
spaniard (behar)
22.43

13
spaniard (1000genomes)
23.58

14
n-european (xing)
24.43

15
utahn-white (1000genomes)
24.92

16
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
25.56

17
ukranian (yunusbayev)
25.62

18
utahn-white (hapmap)
25.68

19
british (1000genomes)
26.71

20
sephardic-jew (behar)
27.54

----------


## LeBrok

> All are different ..........even the 2 Germans have different "migrational " routes...one more Med other more steppe


 Keep in mind that these are very low quality samples, therefore the numbers are off. Stuttgart from post 262 is very good quality and points to true admixtures for Neolithic Germany, and it is even closer to Neolithic Hungary, than these to low quality samples to each other.

----------


## LeBrok

> Heres mine... I'm surprised at how much NE Euro there is..*
> Admix Results (sorted):*
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> NE-Euro
> ...


Go to post #1 for explanation of these admixtures. Below is table of some Europeans. I've put you in.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0

Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

Few more europeans:
Ethnicity
Dataset
N
C1
C2
C3
C4
C5
C6
C7
C8
C9
C10
C11
C12
C13
C14
C15
C16




S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

basque
hgdp
24
0%
8%
1%
33%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
58%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

belorussian
behar
9
1%
5%
10%
64%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
16%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

bulgarian
yunusbayev
13
0%
5%
28%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

cypriot
behar
12
0%
7%
49%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
19%
17%
0%
0%
0%
0%

finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

french
hgdp
28
0%
9%
10%
42%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
36%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%

hungarian
behar
19
0%
7%
15%
49%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
24%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

italian
hgdp
13
0%
5%
22%
29%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
37%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%

lithuanian
behar
10
0%
7%
5%
72%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
15%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

romanian-a
behar
14
1%
6%
26%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

russian
behar
2
1%
4%
13%
64%
1%
3%
0%
1%
1%
1%
13%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

sardinian
hgdp
28
0%
0%
20%
12%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
60%
7%
0%
0%
0%
0%

serbian
harappa
1
0%
8%
23%
42%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
22%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

slovenian
xing
25
1%
6%
15%
51%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

spaniard
behar
12
0%
7%
11%
32%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
44%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-istanbul
hodoglugil
20
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

tuscan
1000genomes
11
0%
6%
29%
24%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
32%
8%
0%
0%
0%
0%

ukranian
yunusbayev
20
1%
6%
12%
58%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
17%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%

----------


## brg12007

cool, that is very helpful seeing the side by side comparisons! thanks for taking the time! :)

----------


## Sile

> Keep in mind that these are very low quality samples, therefore the numbers are off. Stuttgart from post 262 is very good quality and points to true admixtures for Neolithic Germany, and it is even closer to Neolithic Hungary, than these to low quality samples to each other.


IMO, Harappa is too weird for ancient samples.......better is too keep ancient samples with ancient programs . like this below

Kit Num: M632231
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
*Gedmatch.Com*

*puntDNAL K12 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle*

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Anatolian_NF
54.49

2
Near_East
27.18

3
Caucasus_HG
15.94

4
European_HG
2.38




Finished reading population data. 55 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 15.719886
2 LBK_EN_I0054 @ 19.231976
3 Stuttgart_SG @ 21.498976
4 Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 23.618074
5 Iceman_MN_SG @ 25.145157
6 Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 25.165730
7 Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 26.337315
8 Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 32.972553
9 Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 33.302784
10 Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 34.398289
11 Iberia_M_ I0406 @ 36.878693
12 Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 36.995884
13 Armenian_MBA @ 49.138161
14 Armenian_MBA @ 49.138161
15 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 49.909016
16 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 51.175419
17 Vatya_SG_RISE479 @ 51.291199
18 Hungary_BA_I1502 @ 51.633827
19 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 52.314507
20 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 52.927113

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Starcevo_MN_I0174 +50% Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 15.719886


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Starcevo_MN_I0174 +25% Starcevo_MN_I0174 +25% Armenian_MBA @ 14.740172



or


Kit Num: M789703
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
*Gedmatch.Com* *puntDNAL K12 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle* This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

*Admix Results (sorted):*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Anatolian_NF
60.35

2
European_HG
26.49

3
Near_East
8.90

4
Sub-Saharan
2.20

5
Caucasus_HG
2.06




Finished reading population data. 55 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 3.873823
2 Iberia_M_ I0406 @ 4.704161
3 Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 @ 5.045290
4 Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 5.161288
5 Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 @ 7.016410
6 Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 7.940047
7 Iceman_MN_SG @ 10.812458
8 Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 10.886922
9 Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 12.627630
10 Stuttgart_SG @ 15.341813
11 LBK_EN_I0054 @ 16.395153
12 Starcevo_MN_I0174 @ 19.567595
13 Hungary_BA_I1502 @ 28.603504
14 Vatya_SG_RISE479 @ 29.307850
15 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 36.559303
16 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 38.185360
17 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 38.409035
18 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 38.591011
19 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 40.806362
20 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 40.817520

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Baalberge_MN_I0560 +50% Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 2.534427


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Iberia_M_ I0406 +25% Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 +25% Iceman_MN_SG @ 2.312664



At least we tie ancients with other ancients and leave the modern with modern tests

----------


## Angela

Unfortunately, no matter what calculator is used, a poor quality, low coverage sample is not going to give reliable results.

----------


## bicicleur

> Unfortunately, no matter what calculator is used, a poor quality, low coverage sample is not going to give reliable results.


I also think it would be better if genomes could be constructed that could be ancestral to the anciant DNA studied, instead of present day populations.

That being said, there is no straightforward method to construct such 'ancestral genomes'.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Unfortunately, no matter what calculator is used, a poor quality, low coverage sample is not going to give reliable results.


I agree with you. But this is also true for the peer-reviewed papers.

----------


## Angela

> I also think it would be better if genomes could be constructed that could be ancestral to the anciant DNA studied, instead of present day populations.
> 
> That being said, there is no straightforward method to construct such 'ancestral genomes'.


I'm sorry, Bicicleur, I'm not following. What do you mean by "construct ancestral genomes" that are "ancestral" to the ancient dna? 

Do you mean you think that calculators or analysis based on ancient dna is preferable to trying to use "clusters" based on distributions of alleles in modern populations? 

If so, I very much agree. Clusters like "West European", or "Northern European" are just the alleles present in those areas today. They "cover" lots of "other" ancestry. Dienekes explained that years ago with reference to his own calculators. "Northern European", for example, contains "EEF like" ancestry. Another way of saying something similar is that these are "drifted" populations. 

Still, no matter what reference populations you use, whether you're still trying to use Admixture, or you're using dstats, or other statistical methods, poor coverage samples shouldn't be used to build any grand theories, imo.

----------


## Sile

> I agree with you. But this is also true for the peer-reviewed papers.


Yes, agreed ............but over half of all ancient samples are of poor quality..................it still does not stop scholars and the populace discussing these samples .

----------


## LeBrok

> IMO, Harappa is too weird for ancient samples.......better is too keep ancient samples with ancient programs . like this below
> 
> Kit Num: M632231
> Threshold of components set to 1.000
> Threshold of method set to 0.25%
> Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
> *Gedmatch.Com*
> 
> *puntDNAL K12 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle*
> ...


Actually we can learn more from HarappaWorld than from simplified runs like K12 or K15. From K12 above we see CaucasianHG, but we don't know if it came from Caucasian HG or Iranian Farmer or maybe it is much more ancient from pure Caucasian admixture source. From HarappaWorld I know the source, therefore relationship to other populations of Near East. Both Caucasian HG and Iranian Farmer contain Baloch admixture in Harappa run. Now Jordan EN fellow doesn't have Baloch at all, so I know that Caucasus HG and Iranian Farmer didn't come here yet to Levant. I also know from Harappa that European HG portion came from WHG and not from EHG. Harappa also calculates much longer than K12 or 15 and I think have more complexity and precision. K12 calculated in 0.82 seconds compared to Harappa 3.31 seconds.

EN Jordan, .Ain Ghazal
7.5k BC

 M632231
I1707

Run time
3.31

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
27.79

NE-Euro
2.52

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
34.48

SW-Asian
34.6

San
0.51

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.1







> *puntDNAL K12 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle*
> 
> This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
> Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
> Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
> Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
> 
> puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle
> 
> ...


Here again I can be more precise which source contributed to Caucasus (was it Caucasian HG or Iranian Farmer) or European HG (was it from WHG or EHG/Steppe). Harappa has 16 population sources to 12 of K12, therefore more could be learned from Harappa. I can see more, that's why I like it and use it.

----------


## LeBrok

> I agree with you. But this is also true for the peer-reviewed papers.


 Caution is required for sure. 
With more and more of low quality samples we still can build statistical view of ancient inhabitants. This is what I did with low quality Remedello samples to get one decent average "person".

----------


## bicicleur

> Do you mean you think that calculators or analysis based on ancient dna is preferable to trying to use "clusters" based on distributions of alleles in modern populations?


yes, that is what I mean
the question is which anciant dna

----------


## Sile

> Actually we can learn more from HarappaWorld than from simplified runs like K12 or K15. From K12 above we see CaucasianHG, but we don't know if it came from Caucasian HG or Iranian Farmer or maybe it is much more ancient from pure Caucasian admixture source. From HarappaWorld I know the source, therefore relationship to other populations of Near East. Both Caucasian HG and Iranian Farmer contain Baloch admixture in Harappa run. Now Jordan EN fellow doesn't have Baloch at all, so I know that Caucasus HG and Iranian Farmer didn't come here yet to Levant. I also know from Harappa that European HG portion came from WHG and not from EHG. Harappa also calculates much longer than K12 or 15 and I think have more complexity and precision. K12 calculated in 0.82 seconds compared to Harappa 3.31 seconds.
> 
> EN Jordan, .Ain Ghazal
> 7.5k BC
> 
>  M632231
> I1707
> 
> Run time
> ...


Maybe, but more pop sources does not mean more accuracy.

Take K36 program, I have never found accuracy in this ............then again I found MDLP K23b accurate, but he ( mr. V ) uses a different system

But, for me , I ignore everything under 10%

----------


## davef

I bet my scores would turn out more like the mainland greek or albanian.

----------


## Angela

> yes, that is what I mean
> the question is which anciant dna


 Yes, I agree. The most cautious thing to do when you have low coverage samples is to do as LeBrok has done and average them. I think the data also has to be looked at in multiple ways as well: Admixture, PCA, formal stats. There should be general agreement or something is wrong. Not all calculators are created equal as well, and not everybody knows what they're doing when they're playing around with these things and popping numbers into the equations. Then there's the whole issue of interpretation. I've seen some hair-raising interpretations of these kinds of results popping up.

All of that said, I think that LeBrok has pulled some interesting and informative information out of this calculator and a lot of it makes sense.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Is there hunter-gatherer from Karelia on GedMatch?


Sample Gedmatch ID Snips
*Karelian-HG M652848 180k*
Yamna 1 M951285 250k
Yamna 2 M020637 200k

*Karelian-HG (EHG_Oleniy_Ostrov I0061) M652848*
Yamna 1 (Yamnaya_Sok_River I0443) M951285
Yamna 2 (Yamnaya I0231) M020637

Alberstedt I0118 - M467300
Halberstadt LBA I0099 M344778
Corded Ware I0104 M622615
Els Trocs Spain EN R1b1 I0410 M684242*
LBK I0054 - kit M206308*
Corded Ware I0103 - kit M966366
Unetice I0047 - kit M370010
Bell Beaker I0112 M117132
Esperstedt I0172 M303249

T185931 - RISE560 Bell Beaker - Ausburg, Germany

Ostuni1 - Ostuni, Brindisi, Italy - Gravettian (27,810-27,430 cal BP) Gedmatch ID: T947885

M987765	Tep001 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7014 BC] K1a n/a
M830273	Tep003 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC] N1b1a G2a-P287>P15>PF3159
M471006	I1705 Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC] H14a J1-P58>Z2324
M682666	I1730 Jordan EBA [2489-2299 BC] R0a1a J2b-M205>PF7331 

M631469	RISE349 Hungary MBA [2034-1748 BC] - T2b3
M370663	I0419 Potapovka [2200-1900 BC] R1a-M417>Z93 U2e1h
M630274	I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC] R1a-M417>Z94 U5a1c
M191719	RISE431 Corded Ware Proto-Unetice Poland [2286-2048 BC] R1a-M417 T2e
M974598	RISE374 Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC] G2a-P287>P15>PF3177 T2b 

M733797	RISE109 Unetice EBA Poland [1954-1772 BC] - U4
M453254	RISE154 Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] - K1a4a1
M239638	RISE586 Unetice EBA Czech Republic [?] - K1b1a
M375165	RISE373 Maros Hungary [1886-1696 BC] - K1a2a
M130094	RISE61 Battle Axe Denmark [2650-2300 BC] R1a-M417>Z284>CTS8401 J1c4 

M235073	I0354 Srubnaya Outlier [2014-1692 BC] U5a1 -
M328175	I0423 Srubnaya [1850-1200 BC] J2b1a2a R1a-M417>Z93
M396326	I0803 Unetice EBA Germany [2132-1942 BC] H4a1a1a -

M825671	I1293 Iran Mesolithic [9100-8600 BC] HV2 J2a-M410>CTS1085
M595455	I1670 Iran Chalcolithic [4839-4617 BC] U3a'c -
M902476	I1662 Iran Chalcolithic [4831-4612 BC] K1a12a J2a-M410>PF5008
M155294	I1674 Iran Chalcolithic [3972-3800 BC] I1c G1-M342>GG372
M873184	I1665 Iran Chalcolithic [3956-3796 BC] U7a -
M381564	F38 Iran EIA [971-832 BC] N1a3a R1b-Z2103>L584>Y23838
T637158	I1955 Iran Late Medieval [1430–1485 AD] U1a1 -

M417230	I1407 Armenia Chalcolithic [4350-3700 BC] H L1a-M27
M133098	I1409 Armenia Chalcolithic [4229-3985 BC] U4a -
M162111	I1632 Armenia Chalcolithic [4230-4000 BC] K1a8 L1a-M27
M734029	I1634 Armenia Chalcolithic [4330-4060 BC] H2a1 L1a-M27
M731608	I1633 Armenia EBA [2619-2410 BC] H1u -
M340653	I1635 Armenia EBA [2619-2465 BC] X2f R1b-M343>L389>V1636
M487536	RISE413 Armenia MBA [1906-1698 BC] T2c1f R1b-M343>L389>P297
M124777	RISE416 Armenia MBA [1643-1445 BC] K1a17a E-M84
M575241	RISE423 Armenia MBA [1402-1211 BC] T2a E-M84>CTS1096 (Y5412-, Y14899-, PF6751-)
M578721	RISE408 Armenia LBA [1209-1009 BC] I5c J2b-M102>L283>CTS3681
M263493	RISE412 Armenia LBA [1193-945 BC] U4c1a -
M062682	RISE396 Armenia LBA [1192-937 BC] H6b -
M497255	RISE397 Armenia LBA [1048-855 BC] T1a2 R1b-Z2103>Z2106>BY3296

M471006	I1705 Jordan EBA [2198-1966 BC] H14a J1-P58>Z2324
M682666	I1730 Jordan EBA [2489-2299 BC] R0a1a J2b-M205>PF7331

M987765	Tep001 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7014 BC] K1a n/a
M830273	Tep003 Anatolia Early Neolithic [7174 BC] N1b1a G2a-P287>P15>PF3159
M300627	Kum4 Anatolia EBA [3500–2800 BC] n/a -

M733797	RISE109 Unetice EBA Poland [1954-1772 BC] U4 -
M453254	RISE154 Unetice EBA Poland [1925-1765 BC] K1a4a1 -
M239638	RISE586 Unetice EBA Czech Republic [?] K1b1a -
M484113	RISE139 Unetice Poland [2135-1923 BC] U2e1f1 n/a
M069028	RISE145 Unetice Poland [2188-1958 BC] H6a1b -

M483824	RISE598 Lithuania LBA [908-485 BC] H2a2 R1a-L62>M417

M669778	RISE1 Corded Ware Poland [2865-2578 BC] K1b1a1 R1b-M343>L754
M191719	RISE431 Corded Ware Proto-Unetice Poland [2286-2048 BC] T2e R1a-M417

M631469	RISE349 Hungary MBA [2034-1748 BC] T2b3 -
M375165	RISE373 Maros Hungary [1886-1696 BC] K1a2a -
M974598	RISE374 Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC] T2 G2a-P287>P15>PF3177

M130094	RISE61 Battle Axe Denmark [2650-2300 BC] J1c4 R1a-M417>Z284>CTS8401

M370663	I0419 Potapovka [2200-1900 BC] U2e1h R1a-M417>Z93
M630274	I0432 Poltavka outlier [2925-2536 BC] U5a1c R1a-M417>Z94

M214301	RISE595 Montenegro LBA [?] U5a2 -
M836655	RISE596 Montenegro IA [?] X1'2'3 -

M030961	K8 Bulgaria IA [450-400 BC] n/a -
M212372	P192-1 Bulgaria IA [800-500 BC] U3b E-M78>Z1919
M540478	T2G2 Bulgaria IA [850-700 BC] HV(16311) -
M777769	V2 Bulgaria LBA [1500-1100 BC] n/a -

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...es-on-GEDmatch

----------


## LeBrok

> Sample Gedmatch ID Snips
> *Karelian-HG M652848 180k*
> Yamna 1 M951285 250k
> Yamna 2 M020637 200k
> 
> *Karelian-HG (EHG_Oleniy_Ostrov I0061) M652848*
> Yamna 1 (Yamnaya_Sok_River I0443) M951285
> Yamna 2 (Yamnaya I0231) M020637


Thanks PA for effort, but this kit doesn't work:
ERROR: Kit number M652848 not found.

----------


## LeBrok

Any more volunteers? What about so many Albanians here, can you post your Harappa, and indicate if you have ancestors from North or South.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Thanks PA for effort, but this kit doesn't work:
> ERROR: Kit number M652848 not found.


I'm sorry, they have probably deleted it, not able to find another Karelian-HG Gedmatch Id.

----------


## Dibran

What do my results generally mean? Is that relatively common for people in the Balkans are in Albania generally?

----------


## brg12007

@dibran, if you look at the chart a few posts up you'll see your results seem pretty similar to mainland greece and my results personally as well, which i guess indicates some north european ancestry, some med ancestry who i presume were the earliest inhabitants of the region? although i could be wrong on this, and you don't have s. indian or se asian percentages so that would indicate you dont have any roma ancestry. the near east/caucasus could suggest maybe some turkish or jewish ancestry? because a small percentage seems common in lots of southern europeans but thats just my take on things.

----------


## Dibran

> Any more volunteers? What about so many Albanians here, can you post your Harappa, and indicate if you have ancestors from North or South.



LeBrok I was included in the result. I am Gheg Albanian from Diber. Fathers origins from Mirdita. 

It says im close to a Greek mainlander (if I'm interpreting that correctly). 


I don't know of any Greek ancestry. My moms side are part of the Shpata clan who claim descent from Gjin Bua Shpata of Epirus. As far as I know he was Arvanite. Maybe that's the connection? But my moms family has been in Puka Albania and Montenegro(Hoti/Gruda) for the last 300 years. 

My paternal grandmother had the surname Stefa/Stafa. Interestingly I had some Greek relatives with the surname Stefas. Idk if there is a connection but it was through my fathers side. She was T1(my father took the test). Her cousin(paternal uncles son) came up E-V13. So now I have my grandmothers maternal and paternal line. I'm just missing my maternal grandfathers line. 

My mothers grandmother bore the surname Pitsari which I had an Italian and Greek show up with some form of that last name, related through my mothers side. My mothers line through her father may be from Epirus. Her mother is from Gjakova in Kosova. We don't know any further back. My fathers line has been between Mirdita and Diber Vogel as far as we know.

----------


## Dibran

> @dibran, if you look at the chart a few posts up you'll see your results seem pretty similar to mainland greece and my results personally as well, which i guess indicates some north european ancestry, some med ancestry who i presume were the earliest inhabitants of the region? although i could be wrong on this, and you don't have s. indian or se asian percentages so that would indicate you dont have any roma ancestry. the near east/caucasus could suggest maybe some turkish or jewish ancestry? because a small percentage seems common in lots of southern europeans but thats just my take on things.


Are you Macedonian?

My family has been in Diber Vogel for a few hundred years now. We have had family between Diver(Debar) and Ohrid for a while. Maybe there is the connection?

An overwhelming majority of my genetic relatives showed up Greek. Before 23andme removed the map feature, i snapped a picture of it. 

16215854_10154000525646076_433966837_n.jpg

----------


## Dibran

14478444_111096732687534_2642522128292773888_n.jpg

My Kit Number is in the picture(in case you want to compare kits or results.

----------


## LeBrok

> LeBrok I was included in the result. I am Gheg Albanian from Diber. Fathers origins from Mirdita. 
> 
> It says im close to a Greek mainlander (if I'm interpreting that correctly). 
> 
> 
> I don't know of any Greek ancestry. My moms side are part of the Shpata clan who claim descent from Gjin Bua Shpata of Epirus. As far as I know he was Arvanite. Maybe that's the connection? But my moms family has been in Puka Albania and Montenegro(Hoti/Gruda) for the last 300 years. 
> 
> My paternal grandmother had the surname Stefa/Stafa. Interestingly I had some Greek relatives with the surname Stefas. Idk if there is a connection but it was through my fathers side. She was T1(my father took the test). Her cousin(paternal uncles son) came up E-V13. So now I have my grandmothers maternal and paternal line. I'm just missing my maternal grandfathers line. 
> 
> My mothers grandmother bore the surname Pitsari which I had an Italian and Greek show up with some form of that last name, related through my mothers side. My mothers line through her father may be from Epirus. Her mother is from Gjakova in Kosova. We don't know any further back. My fathers line has been between Mirdita and Diber Vogel as far as we know.


Cool got it, thanks. Yes you plot very close to Greek Mainland. I was hoping for more Albanians to post their results. We need more Albanians to see how you fit in the big picture. Slavic countries around Albania and Greece plot much higher in Steppe admixtures.
Here is yours among other Mainland Greeks I have.

Greek, mainland
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Mainland

 6
 33
 24
 0




 1
 24
 12





2
Mainland

 8
 31
 26
 1


 0


 26
 9





3
Mainland

 4
 31
 24


 1
 0

 0
 28
 12
 0


 0

Albania, Gheg, Diber
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0



I would say you have a little bit more Neolithic Farmer and Steppe than mainland Greece.

----------


## brg12007

cool! I drove through Tirana and crossed the border at Qafe Thane with my dad a few years ago. It's such beautiful countryside, those winding mountain highways are pretty terrifying/awe inspiring.
I have some family around Ohrid/Struga as well! In response to my earlier post, I just meant you, me, and greek mainlanders share more or less the same soup of ancesters, give or take a few percentage differences in each category. I am Macedonian, with my grandparents coming from around either Prilep or Bitola, I don't have 23andme, but on ancestry I noticed I had quite a few distant relations (5-8th cousin range) who were Albanian, Kosovar Albanian, and Greek, in addition to the expected Bulgarian, so maybe the region was more admixed in the past than current divisions would have us believe!
My kit number is A074272, I tried to see if we were related but I'm not that handy with gedmatch yet, what I got says we have 1 matching segment of 6.8cM, maybe cousins?

----------


## Dibran

> cool! I drove through Tirana and crossed the border at Qafe Thane with my dad a few years ago. It's such beautiful countryside, those winding mountain highways are pretty terrifying/awe inspiring.
> I have some family around Ohrid/Struga as well! In response to my earlier post, I just meant you, me, and greek mainlanders share more or less the same soup of ancesters, give or take a few percentage differences in each category. I am Macedonian, with my grandparents coming from around either Prilep or Bitola, I don't have 23andme, but on ancestry I noticed I had quite a few distant relations (5-8th cousin range) who were Albanian, Kosovar Albanian, and Greek, in addition to the expected Bulgarian, so maybe the region was more admixed in the past than current divisions would have us believe!
> My kit number is A074272, I tried to see if we were related but I'm not that handy with gedmatch yet, what I got says we have 1 matching segment of 6.8cM, maybe cousins?


If we have a matching segment it means we are distantly related I think! I could be wrong(still new to this). But I assume if we share any segments we are related. Typically if you have no shared segments on 23andme they dont connect you as genetic relatives.

Interesting indeed. the map shows a couple people around prilep and Struga. maybe common ancestors?

I honestly believe the regions were way more admixed than now. Think about it. Nationalism is rather a recent phenomena. Back then people married based on similar rites and religions.

It was more common that catholics married catholics, and christians married christians etc. I have stories of a few distant cousins marrying Torbes Muslims which are typically Macedonian Muslims right?

I think the Balkans are a mixed bag in general. The closest ethnic groups on my Gedmatch were Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Tuscan, Romanian, Montenegrin etc. Interestingly, my father tested closer to Greeks than Albanians on his Gedmatch. Which is peculiar considering we are Ghegs. My only guess is maybe my grandmother added significant greek ancestry. But her family were Ghegs as well.

----------


## Dibran

> cool! I drove through Tirana and crossed the border at Qafe Thane with my dad a few years ago. It's such beautiful countryside, those winding mountain highways are pretty terrifying/awe inspiring.
> I have some family around Ohrid/Struga as well! In response to my earlier post, I just meant you, me, and greek mainlanders share more or less the same soup of ancesters, give or take a few percentage differences in each category. I am Macedonian, with my grandparents coming from around either Prilep or Bitola, I don't have 23andme, but on ancestry I noticed I had quite a few distant relations (5-8th cousin range) who were Albanian, Kosovar Albanian, and Greek, in addition to the expected Bulgarian, so maybe the region was more admixed in the past than current divisions would have us believe!
> My kit number is A074272, I tried to see if we were related but I'm not that handy with gedmatch yet, what I got says we have 1 matching segment of 6.8cM, maybe cousins?


|


Hmm I just checked our kits together and there are no shared segments. weird. Maybe a typo?

----------


## LeBrok

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0
100

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0
99

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0
100

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0
100

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0
100

serbian
harappa
0%
8%
23%
42%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
22%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%


bulgarian
yunusbayev
0%
5%
28%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0
100

Albania, Gheg
Dibran
0
5
30
27
0
0
0
0
0
0
30
8
0
0
0
0
100

Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0
100

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0
100

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
100

Ashkenazy
?
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0
99

turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0
100

bulgarian
yunusbayev
0%
5%
28%
36%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
23%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

----------


## Sile

> LeBrok I was included in the result. I am Gheg Albanian from Diber. Fathers origins from Mirdita. 
> 
> It says im close to a Greek mainlander (if I'm interpreting that correctly). 
> 
> 
> I don't know of any Greek ancestry. My moms side are part of the Shpata clan who claim descent from Gjin Bua Shpata of Epirus. As far as I know he was Arvanite. Maybe that's the connection? But my moms family has been in Puka Albania and Montenegro(Hoti/Gruda) for the last 300 years. 
> 
> My paternal grandmother had the surname Stefa/Stafa. Interestingly I had some Greek relatives with the surname Stefas. Idk if there is a connection but it was through my fathers side. She was T1(my father took the test). Her cousin(paternal uncles son) came up E-V13. So now I have my grandmothers maternal and paternal line. I'm just missing my maternal grandfathers line. 
> 
> My mothers grandmother bore the surname Pitsari which I had an Italian and Greek show up with some form of that last name, related through my mothers side. My mothers line through her father may be from Epirus. Her mother is from Gjakova in Kosova. We don't know any further back. My fathers line has been between Mirdita and Diber Vogel as far as we know.


Maybe the original Pitsari was really Pizzari ...........as the first z has a T sound , like Pizza


http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...aliani/PIZZARI

Pitsari does not exist in Italy

----------


## brg12007

i lowered the default match length from 7 to 3 to pick up on any smaller chunks, try that!

----------


## Dibran

> Cool got it, thanks. Yes you plot very close to Greek Mainland. I was hoping for more Albanians to post their results. We need more Albanians to see how you fit in the big picture. Slavic countries around Albania and Greece plot much higher in Steppe admixtures.
> Here is yours among other Mainland Greeks I have.
> 
> Greek, mainland
> Population
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> ...


 Great Info bro thank you!. I have my fathers GedMatch results, if that helps to include another Albanian and draw the distinction between his and my mother contributions? Here is my fathers result.

*HarappaWorld Oracle results:*23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Kit M504390

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.8

2
Mediterranean
29.29

3
NE-Euro
24.86

4
SW-Asian
7.82

5
Baloch
6.43

6
Beringian
0.45

7
American
0.44

8
Siberian
0.36

9
Papuan
0.29

10
San
0.27





*

----------


## davef

Lol Dibran, If I were to take a dna test my results would be close to yours! The only significant difference would lie in tbe Mediterranean and sw asian scores-your mediterraneab would be higher and my sw asian would be higher.

----------


## Dibran

> Maybe the original Pitsari was really Pizzari ...........as the first z has a T sound , like Pizza
> 
> 
> http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...aliani/PIZZARI
> 
> Pitsari does not exist in Italy



Lol` Idk. The greek relative was a Pitsaris. The Italian one was Picari if I recall.

----------


## Dibran

> i lowered the default match length from 7 to 3 to pick up on any smaller chunks, try that!


Ok now I see. Interesting. Maybe a distant relation. I tested with LivingDNA so I cant wait for their results.

----------


## Joey D

> @ Joey D, your best match is Greek East-Islander. You have a tiny bit more LN farmer that lowers SW Asian and raises Med, I would say. Like your ancestors come from Ancient Greece (before Slavic invasion) who survived in Sicilian village secluded and not mixing since. Or just coincidental mixing of genetics made you look like East Greek islander. ;)
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> NE-Asian
> ...


I remember there was a thread which translated your DNA results to map coordinates, and I did indeed end up on an Eastern Greek island, from memory, just East of Crete.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Lol` Idk. The greek relative was a Pitsaris. The Italian one was Picari if I recall.


In Italian Picari can be of Spanish origin (from the Spanish "picaro", trickster, rogue or rascal, see picaresque). In Italian "c" (/k/ or a soft ⟨c⟩) never represents the "t͡s".

----------


## Dibran

> In Italian Picari can be of Spanish origin (from the Spanish "picaro", trickster, rogue or rascal, see picaresque). In Italian "c" (/k/ or a soft ⟨c⟩) never represents the "t͡s".


So most likely the link would be with the Greek Pitsaris?

----------


## LeBrok

> Great Info bro thank you!. I have my fathers GedMatch results, if that helps to include another Albanian and draw the distinction between his and my mother contributions? Here is my fathers result.
> 
> *HarappaWorld Oracle results:*
> 
> 23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.
> 
> Kit M504390
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):
> ...


Added, your father looks a bit more like Greek than you. I suppose, your mother must have a bit more Steppe NE Euro than you.



Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0
100

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0
99

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0
100

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0
100

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0
100

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0
100

Albania
2
0
6
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
29
8
0
0
0
0
100

Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0
100

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0
100

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0
100

Ashkenazy
?
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0
99

turk-istanbul
?
1
16
45
11
1
3
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0
100

----------


## Dibran

> Added, your father looks a bit more like Greek than you. I suppose, your mother must have a bit more Steppe NE Euro than you.
> 
> 
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> ...


Interesting. I don't see how Greek ancestry works in there. For my mom it made sense given oral history. But her family have been in Malesi for sometime. So the higher steppe makes sense. But my fathers line were always in Mirdita and Diber. Mirdita is very isolated or was any ways. Some of the purely Albanian place names exist there. The only thing I could suggest, maybe my paternal grandmother added Greek ancestry?

I would assume Muslim Greeks such as Muslim Torbes would marry into Albanian Muslim or Slavic Muslim households. 

But I don't see how Greeks would go up north. Unless they were Muslim Greeks? Idk. Lol

----------


## LeBrok

> Interesting. I don't see how Greek ancestry works in there. For my mom it made sense given oral history. But her family have been in Malesi for sometime. So the higher steppe makes sense. But my fathers line were always in Mirdita and Diber. Mirdita is very isolated or was any ways. Some of the purely Albanian place names exist there. The only thing I could suggest, maybe my paternal grandmother added Greek ancestry?
> 
> I would assume Muslim Greeks such as Muslim Torbes would marry into Albanian Muslim or Slavic Muslim households. 
> 
> But I don't see how Greeks would go up north. Unless they were Muslim Greeks? Idk. Lol


Differences are small, could have been anyone in 3rd or 4th generation, or these are typical genetic variations of modern Albanian population. We won't know till we have more samples.

----------


## New Englander

Dibran, your much closer to my results I think. I usually dont plot with Albanians, but I seem to drift to South East Europe, than the Levant, and than Western Europe. You might have some Greek, your Caucasian and SW Asian seem kinda high.

----------


## Dibran

> Differences are small, could have been anyone in 3rd or 4th generation, or these are typical genetic variations of modern Albanian population. We won't know till we have more samples.


Good point. Still inconclusive as of yet. I'm sure it's possible though. My father seems more Mediterranean as opposed to Dinaric which is common with Ghegs. I seem to be a mix I think. My mom seems dinaric-med. does taxonomy help at all? I have been told I look typically Albanian. I'll post a pic shortly.

----------


## Dibran

> Dibran, your much closer to my results I think. I usually dont plot with Albanians, but I seem to drift to South East Europe, than the Levant, and than Western Europe. You might have some Greek, your Caucasian and SW Asian seem kinda high.


You do look like a Celtic Balkanite. Similar appearance to some norther Gheg Albanians. I had a drop of British and Irish ancestry. Maybe that influences it in some way? I'm realllly white lol. While most Albanians seem to be a medium white to olive. I burn really easily. Lol

----------


## New Englander

^ Well anyway, I ran your results into Eurogenes 36K, and it placed you in Egypt. Im not sure why. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/30...1!4d26.9763052

----------


## Dibran

> ^ Well anyway, I ran your results into Eurogenes 36K, and it placed you in Egypt. Im not sure why. 
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/30...1!4d26.9763052


Yea idk lol. Last time I ran that it placed me off the coast of Spain lmao.

----------


## Dibran

> Differences are small, could have been anyone in 3rd or 4th generation, or these are typical genetic variations of modern Albanian population. We won't know till we have more samples.



Lebrok,

this is a picture of me. What taxonomy classification would this fall into? i tell myself Dinaro-Med but Im a laymen in this sort of stuff.

IMG_7784.jpg

1910427_60759891075_3413548_n.jpg

----------


## Hauteville

New results from Sicily:

1

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
30.28

2
Mediterranean
28.87

3
NE-Euro
20.19

4
SW-Asian
10.47

5
Baloch
7.46

6
SE-Asian
0.9

7
E-African
0.81

8
American
0.41

9
W-African
0.37

10
Papuan
0.24



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
tuscan (1000genomes)
5.71

2
tuscan (hgdp)
6.26

3
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.75

4
tuscan (hapmap)
6.88

5
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
8.33

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
13.93

7
morocco-jew (behar)
14.3

8
italian (hgdp)
14.33

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
16.09

10
romanian-a (behar)
16.82

11
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
18.67

12
cypriot (behar)
23.98

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
24.81

14
spaniard (behar)
25.35

15
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
25.35

16
romanian-b (behar)
25.68

17
spaniard (1000genomes)
26.02

18
turk (behar)
26.72

19
lebanese (behar)
26.95

20
turkish (harappa)
27.45




2-

*​*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
32.47

2
Mediterranean
27.74

3
NE-Euro
16.47

4
SW-Asian
13.28

5
Baloch
6.66

6
W-African
1.38

7
E-African
0.75

8
Papuan
0.59

9
SE-Asian
0.55

10
Pygmy
0.09

11
Siberian
0.01



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
4.52

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
5.07

3
sephardic-jew (behar)
9.16

4
morocco-jew (behar)
9.8

5
tuscan (1000genomes)
10.08

6
tuscan (hgdp)
10.67

7
tuscan (hapmap)
11.26

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
17.14

9
italian (hgdp)
18.72

10
cypriot (behar)
19.82

11
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
19.86

12
romanian-a (behar)
20.84

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
22.67

14
lebanese (behar)
22.69

15
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
22.78

16
turk (behar)
24.28

17
turkish (harappa)
24.91

18
syrian (behar)
25.29

19
lebanese-muslim (haber)
25.36

20
romanian-b (behar)
25.6


*

----------


## Hauteville

Mainlander Southern Italian from Basilicata

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
31.34

2
Mediterranean
27.15

3
NE-Euro
17.46

4
SW-Asian
11.64

5
Baloch
10.62

6
San
0.77

7
Papuan
0.39

8
S-Indian
0.32

9
E-African
0.16

10
W-African
0.08

11
NE-Asian
0.07



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.54

2
ashkenazi (harappa)
6.68

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
9.74

4
tuscan (hgdp)
10.21

5
tuscan (hapmap)
10.78

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
11.53

7
morocco-jew (behar)
12.28

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
16.22

9
italian (hgdp)
18.02

10
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
18.77

11
romanian-a (behar)
19.5

12
cypriot (behar)
21.3

13
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
21.74

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
22.1

15
turk (behar)
23.56

16
lebanese (behar)
23.71

17
turkish (harappa)
23.78

18
romanian-b (behar)
24.04

19
armenian (harappa)
25.57

20
palestinian (harappa)
26.01


*
Puglia

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
32.4

2
Mediterranean
24.29

3
NE-Euro
20.94

4
SW-Asian
11.75

5
Baloch
8.52

6
Papuan
0.96

7
American
0.79

8
Beringian
0.34



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
ashkenazi (harappa)
4.25

2
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
6.38

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
9.56

4
tuscan (hgdp)
10.16

5
tuscan (hapmap)
10.9

6
sephardic-jew (behar)
13.09

7
morocco-jew (behar)
14.49

8
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
15.1

9
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.38

10
romanian-a (behar)
16.47

11
italian (hgdp)
18.11

12
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
21.1

13
cypriot (behar)
21.49

14
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
21.77

15
turk (behar)
23.03

16
turkish (harappa)
23.86

17
lebanese (behar)
24.09

18
romanian-b (behar)
24.16

19
armenian (harappa)
25.93

20
syrian (behar)
26.2


*

----------


## DNZ

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
30.32

2
Caucasian
26.21

3
Mediterranean
20.02

4
Baloch
10.18

5
SW-Asian
6.87

6
Siberian
4.64

7
Beringian
0.95

8
S-Indian
0.54

9
E-African
0.25

10
Pygmy
0.04



*Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
romanian-a (behar)
8.22

2
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
8.39

3
tuscan (1000genomes)
14.39

4
tuscan (hgdp)
14.57

5
tuscan (hapmap)
14.95

6
ashkenazi (harappa)
15.32

7
italian (hgdp)
17.79

8
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
18.1

9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
19.51

10
hungarian (behar)
21.09

11
slovenian (xing)
22.41

12
nogai (yunusbayev)
24.19

13
french (hgdp)
24.79

14
sephardic-jew (behar)
24.89

15
romanian-b (behar)
25.37

16
stalskoe (xing)
25.63

17
morocco-jew (behar)
25.81

18
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
26.74

19
spaniard (behar)
27.04

20
spaniard (1000genomes)
28.11



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

*

----------


## New Englander

1 ashkenazy-jew + british + georgia-jew + italian @ 0.868904

I think this is the most accurate result I have ever got.

50% cypriot +50% french

Europe is going to look like me in about 20 years

----------


## brg12007

because i like to look at the closest population results as well, here's mine 

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 romanian-a @ 2.845284
2 bulgarian @ 4.204067
3 serbian @ 9.017660
4 tuscan @ 13.798425
5 tuscan @ 13.824872
6 tuscan @ 13.974961
7 italian @ 14.184108
8 hungarian @ 18.116261
9 ashkenazi @ 19.119286
10 slovenian @ 19.673925
11 french @ 21.550350
12 ashkenazy-jew @ 22.871231
13 spaniard @ 24.360323
14 spaniard @ 25.616423
15 n-european @ 27.133020
16 utahn-white @ 27.646441
17 turk-aydin @ 28.065548
18 ukranian @ 28.281336
19 utahn-white @ 28.508957
20 british @ 29.625639

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% ashkenazi +50% hungarian @ 2.048637


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% romanian-a +25% serbian +25% tuscan @ 1.948910


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 bulgarian + cypriot + russian + spaniard @ 0.978163
2 ashkenazi + romanian-a + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.047893
3 cypriot + romanian-a + russian + spaniard @ 1.109338
4 ashkenazi + romanian-a + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.115703
5 ashkenazy-jew + serbian + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.212638
6 ashkenazi + romanian-a + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.235345
7 cypriot + french + russian + tuscan @ 1.235592
8 cypriot + french + russian + tuscan @ 1.253803
9 ashkenazi + bulgarian + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.264051
10 ashkenazy-jew + serbian + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.280938
11 ashkenazy-jew + serbian + tuscan + ukranian @ 1.286016
12 ashkenazy-jew + belorussian + bulgarian + tuscan @ 1.295771
13 cypriot + hungarian + italian + ukranian @ 1.302889
14 bulgarian + cypriot + russian + spaniard @ 1.308660
15 armenian + finnish + sardinian + serbian @ 1.331063
16 ashkenazy-jew + bulgarian + bulgarian + n-european @ 1.334111
17 armenian + finnish + sardinian + serbian @ 1.347548
18 georgia-jew + russian + sardinian + ukranian @ 1.356054
19 cypriot + french + russian + tuscan @ 1.366426
20 ashkenazy-jew + bulgarian + italian + ukranian @ 1.374152

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Europe is going to look like me in about 20 years


I thought that the American schools were better than that. I was absolutely wrong. ;)

In about 20 years all like you in Europe? Lol 

But above all, why?

----------


## DNZ

Selectimevri,ти си българин?Do you have a Bulgarian ancestry?

----------


## brg12007

@dnz macedonian, we're neighbours! rumour has it i'm related to either georgi sugarev or dame gruev on my dads side, that was something supposedly my grandpa was told, even though today no one knows who specifically, so that could account for some bulgarian ancestry! i certainly plot close

----------


## New Englander

The influx of Muslims into France and Central-Northern Europe. Im about that mix.

----------


## Boreas

> *
> #
> Population (source)
> Distance
> 
> 1
> romanian-a (behar)
> 8.22
> 
> ...


It is good to see a person who is as far as with other nations as me :)

----------


## DNZ

You are right.All The Balkan populations have similar results and unique differences.

----------


## DNZ

> It is good to see a person who is as far as with other nations as me :)


My fathers grandmother is a Tatar.Probably,This is so effective for the Harappa results.

----------


## Belmonde

> Unfortunately, I have no information about it but, that would explain my blond haired-blue eyed grandmother.
> 
> Maybe a bulgarian girl got into family, maybe they took orpham bulgarian boy or islamisation and Turkification, no idea
> 
> I have no idea how close them but this is y-25 marker results
> Attachment 8374
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My guess is that your haplogroup may be descended from the tribe Severians. They were settled in the eastern Balkan Mountains to guard the Bulgar-Byzantine frontier. Earlier they were just where your two matches in Ukraine are located. How recent relatives are they? How common is blond hair in Istanbul and Anatolia?

----------


## brg12007

i think blonde hair and blue eyes or a combo of one or the other is more common than people think in turkey

----------


## LeBrok

> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> NE-Euro
> 30.32
> 
> 2
> ...


 You guys are so unique, you could start your own race, or at least ethnic group.
Turkey - Bulgaria mix
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


1
Boreas
 2.78
 11.05
 29.17
 21.96

 5.56
 2.78
 0.38
 0.05
 0.47
 18.64
 6.72
 0.14

 0.29

99.99

2
Boreas' brother
 2.19
 10.07
 28.16
 20.57

 4.12
 4.50
 0.68
 0.06

 21.83
 7.40
 0.16

 0.25

99.99

3
DNZ
 0.54
 10.18
 26.21
 30.32

 4.64



 0.95
 20.02
 6.87

 0.25
 0.04

100.02

4

















0.00



















0.00

Turkey - Bulgaria mix
3
2
10
28
24
0
5
2
0
0
0
20
7
0
0
0
0
100



You all have same amount of base, like Anatolian or Early European Farmer and Anatolian/Balkan Bronze Age. You also have a chunk off Turkic admixture, though somehow DNZ managed to get rid of all NE Asian of it. Which is very interesting how his DNA recombined without it? All Turks have it. ;)
Other big difference is way more NE European in DNZ, possibly thanks to his Tatar ancestry from up North (Ukraine?).

----------


## New Englander

I dont know about all Turks, but My Turkish Jewish relatives (going on old pictures) seem to be very fair looking.

Example: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...a2&oe=594B6D84

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ae&oe=59143E7B

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...9b&oe=59221243

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...5e&oe=591C1E00

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b5&oe=59136F7F

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...71&oe=5912F0DC

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...a5&oe=59090223 

I dont even know what phenotype they are, like a mix of Baltid and Asian Alpine.

----------


## DNZ

Thanks for your comparisons.I have 1/8 Tatar ancestry.My paternal grandfathers mother.And,I was born in a Northern-Eastern parts of Bulgaria.You did a some correct determinations.But,I dont think like you for just one thing.She was a Nogay from Crimea.Nogay's are more West Asian and Siberian than a NE Euro.I will share with you my ancestral origins too.Maybe Then,We can talk about different things.

And Yes,They have a NE Asian admixture.But,I have not.Her ancestry can be a Turkified Fin-Ugric origin,or more ancient connections.Maybe,It can be just a special for the Harappa Results.

----------


## LeBrok

I've found Karelian EHG. Peculiar fellow, related to Samara EHG, but with less Baloch and much more American and Beringian. Interestingly modern Finns (the closest modern genome I have for this area) don't have much in common with this EHG. They have 0% American and Beringian and only 1% Baloch, but they have 5% Siberian instead. Finns have 80% of NE Euro, but it had to come rather from SHG than EHG.

M643041
I0061

Karelia, N Russia
5.25 kya

Run time
9.88

S-Indian
-

Baloch
9.46

Caucasian
-

NE-Euro
72.66

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
12.6

Beringian
5.16

Mediterranean
-

SW-Asian
-

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.07

W-African
-







S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

finnish
1000genomes
100
1%
1%
2%
80%
0%
6%
0%
0%
0%
1%
5%
5%
0%
0%
0%
0%

----------


## Boreas

> My guess is that your haplogroup may be descended from the tribe Severians. They were settled in the eastern Balkan Mountains to guard the Bulgar-Byzantine frontier. Earlier they were just where your two matches in Ukraine are located. How recent relatives are they? How common is blond hair in Istanbul and Anatolia?





> i think blonde hair and blue eyes or a combo of one or the other is more common than people think in turkey


Well said, between East Blacksea/Pontus and people who has Balkan origin, it is very common. But most of blond is also dark blond. There are huge difference between when they kid and grow up.

But I am the Uruk-hai in the my elvish father family.  :Grin:

----------


## Fire Haired14

> I dont know about all Turks, but My Turkish Jewish relatives (going on old pictures) seem to be very fair looking.


Are you a Turkish Jew? Are your relatives sephederic Jewish?

----------


## Boreas

> My guess is that your haplogroup may be descended from the tribe Severians. They were settled in the eastern Balkan Mountains to guard the Bulgar-Byzantine frontier. Earlier they were just where your two matches in Ukraine are located. How recent relatives are they? How common is blond hair in Istanbul and Anatolia?


Thanks for info about Severians.

I am L366, fifth blue from the top. I guess somewehere between Eastern Carpats and Pomeria fit me.

----------


## New Englander

My relatives are Sephardi Jews. I consider myself Neapolitan for the most part. I have pictures of My Great Great Grandparents form the Turkish side though, but I cant find them.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My relatives are Sephardi Jews. I consider myself Neapolitan for the most part. I have pictures of My Great Great Grandparents form the Turkish side though, but I cant find them.


Which is exactly the connection between Sephardi Jews and Neapolitans? Neapolitans have a very strong identity. I struggle to see how someone who wasn't born and raised there and he's not even fully Neapolitan can consider himself Neapolitan. But probably that's just me.

----------


## brg12007

> Which is exactly the connection between Sephardi Jews and Neapolitans? Neapolitans have a very strong identity. I struggle to see how someone who wasn't born and raised there and he's not even fully Neapolitan can consider himself Neapolitan. But probably that's just me.


maybe they meant neopolitan in the sense that they're strawberry vanilla and chocolate?

----------


## New Englander

My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.

----------


## New Englander

This is my Uncle, this is My Aunt. This is my Dad. Neapolitan.... 

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...6a&oe=59006BCD

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...2c&oe=591DA4D2

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...23&oe=59190B31

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.


Salerno is definitely a common southern Italian surname. I see, so you identify with your paternal ancestry. Do you speak Italian and Neapolitan?




> maybe they meant neopolitan in the sense that they're strawberry vanilla and chocolate?


More pastiera, sfogliatella and babà.

Is this your father, right?




> https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...23&oe=59190B31

----------


## New Englander

I dont know where the Salerno family (Paternal Great Grandmother Zizza) came from, but my Grandmothers family DiGiacomo was from Candida, and Baldasaro from Naples. 

No, I cant speak Italian, I think my Great Grandparents all did. I have no idea about the dialect.

----------


## New Englander

Grandprents, and Great Grand Fathers. 

pic_2.jpg

----------


## Dibran

> My Ancestry is 50% Neapolitan, English-Scottish 25%, and Ashkenazim/Sephardi 25%. My Dad is Full Italian, I consider myself Italian. My Last name is Salerno.


I went to school with a kid who was Neapolitan with the last name Salerno. Any family from New Jersey that you are aware of?

----------


## Angela

It doesn't surprise me that half-Italian-American people identify as "Italian". My younger relatives here are mostly only half "Italian", and yet they identify in the same way. It's an "American" thing. It seems to me that people here identify with the most "recent" immigrant nationality, because usually the rest is a jumble. Also, the Italians have a habit of "taking over" in terms of food, family structure and traditions etc. :)

What surprises me is that someone with maternal Jewish ancestry wouldn't also identify as Jewish, given that being Jewish, at least since Talmudic times, is dependent on the mother's ancestry. I've never seen that, but it's possible, of course.

----------


## New Englander

^ Because 2 reasons. Its my Mothers paternal father that is Jewish, and my mother was adopted by a different Father.

----------


## Seanp

Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.

Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.



Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan

Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.

----------


## Pax Augusta

it seems that the cage has been reopened.  :Laughing: 




> Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.


Because Jews weren't originally from Italy, that's very simple. Yours is a perfect example of wrong argument based on an incorrect starting point/assumption.




> Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.


Calabrese have never spoken Arabic.

----------


## Angela

I have to say I've rarely seen so much incorrect information in one post as in seanp's post #355. For any unsuspecting newcomer reading it, just disregard. If anyone wants to read fact based discussions of Ashkenazi/Sephardi ethnogenesis use the search engine to find the relevant threads.

@Pax, The whole thing is too ridiculous to discuss in depth. The only hypothesis for Ashkenazi ethnogenesis that ever included Italians proposed that the Ashkenazim were formed by the admixture following the fall of the Roman Empire with some Italian women before they left for the Rhineland. Since there is no IBD sharing between the two groups that now seems highly unlikely. The proposal in the prior thread is even more far fetched than that one, because even if it were true, it would say nothing about the Jews of North Africa, the Levant, the Near East etc. etc. Also, some people don't at all understand the difference between genetic and cultural identity and political borders. 

They also, I'm sorry to say, should not take the opinions of most Italians of the diaspora, descendants in some cases many generations removed from people who were almost illiterate when they left their regions, about Italian history or language or ethnogenesis or identity as dispositive. I don't mean any disrespect or disparagement of them by saying so; I married a man of whom this was true. He didn't even know the towns of his ancestors, much less any of the language or history. The only reason he once set foot in his ancestral villages is because I thought it was a pity his family didn't have the information, investigated, found them, and nagged until he agreed to go. :) I thought it was important for the children to have another "anchor" in terms of identity, not just mine or their "American" one. I felt badly that they identified so much with "my" Italy, and not their father's.

----------


## Sile

> Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.
> 
> Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan
> 
> Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.


once the congress of vienna was settled the italian states ( see map in link below ) lost the majority of their jews to the other realms of the hapsburg empire ,
There was far more opotunities to make money in Vienna and prague than in Milan or Venice ( murano glass was shut down by the austrians and prague became the glass capital )

Of the 20000 jews in lombardy and Veneto in 1815 ..........the hapsburg dispersed many of them to Piedmont and Modena/romagna ............once all was settled by 1834 the census was only 7830 jews in lombard-Venetia "kingdom", over 5000 went north of the alps and the remainder preferred to go south ( esp. Tuscany Legnano )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna

EDIT - According to the Ethnographic map of Karl von Czoernig-Czernhausen, issued by the k.u.k. Administration of Statistics in 1855, the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia had a population of 5,024,117 people, consisting of the following ethnic groups: 4,625,746 Italians; 351,805 Friulians; 12,084 Germans (Cimbrians in Venetia); 26,676 Slovenians and 7,806 Jews.

7806 Jews

----------


## Azzurro

> Most Jews were originally from Italy before they got expelled, if we consider genetic as a factor apart many things to base someone's identity i don't see how thousands, millions of Italian Jews living today in Turkey, Israel, Tunisia has less right to consider themselves Italian than someone who borned in America of Italian descent, but back then such thing as "Italian" didn't even exist.
> 
> Consider the idea of Italian as an ethnic group was never a deal untill 1900s for instance most Calabrese didn't even speak Italian but a dialect of Greek with Italic, Arabic and Aberesche influences because those groups were the dominant factor to make the bases of Southern Italy.
> 
> 
> 
> Even today ask a Neapolitan are you Italian? - No I'm Neapolitan
> 
> Majority of South Italians are of Greek, Iberian, Carthaginian/Jewish, Aberesche and as well Native Mediterranean descent through the Neolithic with little influence from the North other than recent cultural unification.


 Jews are not from Italy, they might be close in Gedmatch calculators (Ashkenazi and Sephardics) but it stems more likely from a neolithic source or there is the theory that the reason Southern Italians and Jews are very close is due to the Greeks, during the Hellenistic period. Both Jews and Southern Italians have some Greek Y-dna and Mt-dna but further research needs to be done to confirm or see IF this is viable. But to a degree what you are saying has some truth in it, there is definite Italians (me) that do descend from Jewish converts in the inquisition period, BigY and snp testing along with very close str markers show this, to which percentage we are not sure in total, maybe 1-2% of Southern Italians descend from Jewish converts, this too needs more work and research.

That is not true that Italian did not exist, throughout the entire peninsula some form of Vulgar Latin which would become Italian was spoken, yes it is true that Greek was spoken in certain areas until the end of the middle ages and still certain words in dialect reflect Greek words and not latin. And there is still Salento and Griko that exist which are Greek, and Arbereshe is from the the Albanian villages formed for the Albanian refugees, they kept up their Albanian traditions and also adopted Italian ones. As for Arabic it is was only spoken in Sicily and was the hybridized Siculo-Arabic which Maltese still speaks today, like Greek Arabic derived words still exist in local dialects, it may vary from one side of the island to the other, I can say we have quite a few in my village.

Southern Italians are primarily Italic and Neolithic Farmer, with a nice chunk of Greek and other minor influences, it depends from person to person.

----------


## New Englander

Just because they were uneducated, and lost their identity does not make them any less Italian Genetically. Im not, nor did I mean to imply a social identification. In modern day Italy, my family would find very similar people genetic wise, more so than anywhere else on Earth, thus they are Italian in the modern sense. 

Maybe I should say Im a Mixed Italian-American.....

----------


## Angela

@Azzurro,
All very true.

@New Englander,
Never said they aren't genetically Italian. The man I married is 100% genetically Italian and very proud of it, and identifies as Italian*, and that's great, but, with all due respect, he shouldn't be on anyone's go to list for information about Italian history, language, culture etc. Being a very intelligent man he wouldn't pretend to a knowledge he doesn't have.

I actually find it endearing that all these half and quarter Italians genetically, including most of my younger relatives in America, identify with Italy. I have absolutely no problem with that. My only objection is when they assume that the few half understood or misunderstood things they've picked up from grandparents and great-grandparents makes them an authority on Italy.

Ed. As well, of course, as American.

----------


## New Englander

I agree with you on that.

----------


## Seanp

double post

----------


## Seanp

Jews aren't originally from Italy, but again what % of today Italy's population originally lived in Italy even before the 15th century? probably not much if we consider many Southerners weren't being able to speak any form of Italic simply because those people were Greek/Byzantine origin and never heard such thing as "Italian identity". 

Jews might be more native to Italy at least Italian Jews than many Northerners of recent Germanic origin as well as Sicilians of Norman descent or we should note that people from any regions of Europe did migrate to Italy since the Middle Ages. 

Modern Italy is built based on a cultural and linguistically form of agreement other than military domination and forced assimilation.




> Calabrese have never spoken Arabic.


Never claimed them as Arabic speakers, i was referring to the Arabic/Berber/Syriac influence in the Siculo-Calabrese language. They never spoke Italian either. Calabria has always been culturally connected to Byzantium and Greece since it's called Magna Gracia and most of it's citizens were Greeks who spoke Greek and still today the minority who survived forced cultural assimilation speak Griko dialect.

----------


## New Englander

I thought the general population structure of Italy has been unchanged for the most part, since the Greek colonization period. Just because they did not speak Italic, does not mean they have not been in Italy since the time of Homer. As far as later mixture goes, yes it did happen, but on the overall it was not very significant to change the population in any way. Maybe in Western Sicily to some extant.

----------


## Sakattack

> I thought the general population structure of Italy has been unchanged for the most part, since the Greek colonization period. Just because they did not speak Italic, does not mean they have not been in Italy since the time of Homer. As far as later mixture goes, yes it did happen, but on the overall it was not very significant to change the population in any way. Maybe in Western Sicily to some extant.


Even back then, the Greek settlers most likely were genetically similar to the locals, so the drift was minor. 

* Greek colonisation period was a dozen centuries after Homer's time :)

Sent from my Robin

----------


## Angela

> Jews aren't originally from Italy, but again what % of today Italy's population originally lived in Italy even before the 15th century? probably not much if we consider many Southerners weren't being able to speak any form of Italic simply because those people were Greek/Byzantine origin and never heard such thing as "Italian identity". 
> 
> Jews might be more native to Italy at least Italian Jews than many Northerners of recent Germanic origin as well as Sicilians of Norman descent or we should note that people from any regions of Europe did migrate to Italy since the Middle Ages. 
> 
> Modern Italy is built based on a cultural and linguistically form of agreement other than military domination and forced assimilation.
> 
> 
> 
> Never claimed them as Arabic speakers, i was referring to the Arabic/Berber/Syriac influence in the Siculo-Calabrese language. They never spoke Italian either. Calabria has always been culturally connected to Byzantium and Greece since it's called Magna Gracia and most of it's citizens were Greeks who spoke Greek and still today the minority who survived forced cultural assimilation speak Griko dialect.



By "Germanic ancestry" I assume you mean the Langobards. If the Langobards were "Germanic", and given that "Germans" today are very high in Ydna I1 and R1b U-106, and R1a, and there are such small percents of those lineages in Italy today, the "Germanic" element is not very large. If you knew any history you would know that the Normans were a few dozen soldiers, hardly enough to change the autosomal composition of Sicilians. You might also want to look at the percents of "Berber" yDna in southern Italy and Sicily. If I thought you were really interested in learning about genetics and Italian genetics in particular, I would post links to papers and to these uniparental marker maps. Since I don't believe that for a second, I'm not going to waste my time. 

Bottom line, though, none of this matters. There are no "pure" populations. Anyone who has been paying attention to the genetics papers published in the last five years or so would know that.

You purport to be Hungarian. I don't necessarily believe it, but let's assume it's true for the moment. Your ancestors are WHG hunter-gatherers, a lot of Near Eastern farmers, some far eastern European EHG, and some Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Later on you have the movement of Magyars, with their Eastern Eurasian ancestry. You even speak a non-Indo-European language. Later on still, you have Germans moving in and who knows who else. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but please don't pretend you, if you are Hungarian, come from some pure "Hungarian" race. It's nonsense.

More importantly, I won't tolerate you trying to bring your anthrofora flame wars here. Please read the rules for this site. You are constantly violating them, with predictable results.

----------


## New Englander

I thought that the Odyssey was almost like a representation of the first Trojan and Greek migration to Sicily, and Italy?  8th century BC is the first colonization period, "It is generally accepted that the poems were composed at some point around the late eighth or early seventh century B.C".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia

----------


## Seanp

> By "Germanic ancestry" I assume you mean the Langobards. If the Langobards were "Germanic", 
> and given that "Germans" today are very high in Ydna I1 and R1b U-106, and R1a, and there are such small percents of those lineages in Italy today, the "Germanic" element is not very large.


We can't associate Germanic haplogroups to modern Germans. Northern Italy was colonized by tonns of Germanic tribes who might be genetically the same as North Italians now than German speakers today.




> . If you knew any history you would know that the Normans were a few dozen soldiers


Yet many Sicilians or Italian Americans today claim Norman heritage. (It's a solely mistake all these people concern on anthroforums)

for contrary I don't see what's the problem for someone to mention the Berber/Carhagian ancestry in South Italy but not the Norman or Lombard. - Maybe those groups can't be viewed as European to fit someone's agenda. **Cough cough**

The same exact phenomenon exist among Antro Iberians who tries to distract themselves from Moors/North Africans but can't delete the 800 years of Moorish rule in Iberia. 





> Bottom line, though, none of this matters. There are no "pure" populations. Anyone who has been paying attention to the genetics papers published in the last five years or so would know that.


So what prevents people like you calling Italians Jews non Italians when there's no strict definition on what Italian means to be. If a Jew identifty as Italian he has the right to be called as such, the same
way someone of Lombard, Germanic, Italic ancestry is not less Italian than someone of Greek ancestry from the South. 




> You purport to be Hungarian. I don't necessarily believe it, but let's assume it's true for the moment. Your ancestors are WHG hunter-gatherers, a lot of Near Eastern farmers, some far eastern European EHG, and some Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Later on you have the movement of Magyars, with their Eastern Eurasian ancestry. You even speak a non-Indo-European language. Later on still, you have Germans moving in and who knows who else. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but please don't pretend you, if you are Hungarian, come from some pure "Hungarian" race. It's nonsense.


That's my identity and i don't identify myself based on DNA results. I have no problem to embrace "European" and "Asian" heritage of my ancestry as that's what makes someone Hungarian. 
But to us these are just meaningless labels as we know Europe didn't even exist before the entry of Judo-Christianity which made this pseudo term "European"
I can't degrade myself to identify with modern French or Germans who sooner or later become a land of Turks and Muslims and redefine the definition of European under the blue flag.

----------


## Sakattack

> I thought that the Odyssey was almost like a representation of the first Trojan and Greek migration to Sicily, and Italy?  8th century BC is the first colonization period, "It is generally accepted that the poems were composed at some point around the late eighth or early seventh century B.C".
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia


Your are right, I messed it up. You said "Homer", I got it as "Troyan War" (for some reason... ). 

Sent from my Robin

----------


## Sile

According to the Ethnographic map of Karl von Czoernig-Czernhausen, issued by the k.u.k. Administration of Statistics in 1855, the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia had a population of 5,024,117 people, consisting of the following ethnic groups: 4,625,746 Italians; 351,805 Friulians; 12,084 Germans (Cimbrians in Venetia); 26,676 Slovenians and 7,806 Jews.

----------


## New Englander

Thats a lot of German and Slovenian. How can that not possible have any kind of impact genetically?

----------


## Angela

Excuse me, have you done the percentages?

There's also the fact that some of these people have been very endogamous, living in isolated villages. That's why they still form separate groups, and that's why some of them get studied for inherited diseases.

See the following discussion here at Eupedia for an example. They are very drifted populations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-eastern+Italy

----------


## New Englander

Well, do they eliminate the out lairs when they form these percentages, or do they average into the regional population structure, like in GEDmatch spreadsheets?

And if they were isolated, and did not mix with Italians, 1) Are they still distinguishable today? 2) How much inbreeding took place, and how far do they drift from the rest of point of origin population? Unless, they took in Italians, and not vise versa...

----------


## New Englander

With modern industrialization, and western culture, I find it odd that this 8% of the population has not at least in the last 100 years, blended into the population. The only exception may be the Jews. 

The only thing wrong with this, is that the world wars may have changed the population, along with immigration to the Americas.

----------


## Angela

I think perhaps you should redo your math. Your post was about the Germans and Slovenes. Even combined they represent less than 1% of the population. The Friulani, although their language is recognized, are still Italians. 

If you are interested in these genetic isolates perhaps you should read the paper.

----------


## New Englander

I just used the number of "Italians", that was about 92%.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I thought that the Odyssey was almost like a representation of the first Trojan and Greek migration to Sicily, and Italy?  8th century BC is the first colonization period, "It is generally accepted that the poems were composed at some point around the late eighth or early seventh century B.C".
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Graecia


It's more complicated. Many ancient people claimed to be of Trojan origin because it was prestigious to take those roots. Also ancient peoples who are definitely unrelated, even the Franks and medieval noble families in the Middle Ages, like the Swiss Habsburg, who was one of the most influential royal houses of Europe and occupied "The throne of the Holy Roman Empire" continuously between 1438 and 1740. Ironically, the Habsburg are R1b U152 L2+, so Italo-Celtic.

"In one case, the Habsburgs went back to the Trojans via a number of Roman families, Julius Caesar, and Aeneas, while in another their line of descent from the Trojans passed through the Carolingians, Merovingians, and Franks – it was even claimed that they were descendants, via Osiris and Jupiter, of Ham and Noah. Another claim made was that they shared common blood with the Babenbergs."


http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter...ly?language=en





> Thats a lot of German and Slovenian. How can that not possible have any kind of impact genetically?



In the stats posted by Sile German and Slovenians are around 0,5 % of the population, how can they have any kind of impact genetically?

According to Sile the Germans are the Cimbrians, and they settled Italy in the Middle Ages. Instead Slovenians live in the Slavia Friulana, they settled in this area in the Middle Ages, since the beginning of the 8th century AD.





> Well, do they eliminate the out lairs when they form these percentages, or do they average into the regional population structure, like in GEDmatch spreadsheets?


GEDmatch uses mostly for North Italians a HGDP sample from Bergamo, there are no Germanic or Slovenian minorities overthere.





> With modern industrialization, and western culture, I find it odd that this 8% of the population has not at least in the last 100 years, blended into the population. The only exception may be the Jews.


Most of Jews were concentrated in Venice and Trieste.




> I just used the number of "Italians", that was about 92%.


The rest, 8%, are Furlans/Friulani, who are people from Friuli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli. They are Italian but being that they spoke a Rhaeto-Romance language and they have a strong identity were counted separately.

----------


## Sile

> It's more complicated. Many ancient people claimed to be of Trojan origin because it was prestigious to take those roots. Also ancient peoples who are definitely unrelated, even the Franks and medieval noble families in the Middle Ages, like the Swiss Habsburg, who was one of the most influential royal houses of Europe and occupied "The throne of the Holy Roman Empire" continuously between 1438 and 1740. Ironically, the Habsburg are R1b U152 L2+, so Italo-Celtic.
> 
> "In one case, the Habsburgs went back to the Trojans via a number of Roman families, Julius Caesar, and Aeneas, while in another their line of descent from the Trojans passed through the Carolingians, Merovingians, and Franks – it was even claimed that they were descendants, via Osiris and Jupiter, of Ham and Noah. Another claim made was that they shared common blood with the Babenbergs."
> 
> 
> http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter...ly?language=en
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the Bergamo admixture representing.?...................is it pure NE-Lombard people only.....

or

a mix of Lombards, Veneti, Tyrolese and eastern Swiss ( grisons ) ?

there should also be as well Ladin ( romansch tyrolese and friuliani ) 


Friuli and Veneti belong to the *ancient indigenous Euganei people* ..........only language divides them not genetics


...........................

*it is not* according to me that cimbrians are germans ..........it is part of the article ...........so you can refrain from giving me negative ratings just because I place articles on the forums

----------


## Pax Augusta

> What is the Bergamo admixture representing.?


Bergamo is the HGDP sample used in calculators like Eurogenes to represent North Italians.

----------


## DNZ

*12 Marker**EXACT MATCH*Country
Match Total
Country Total
Percentage
Comments

Albania
1
81
1.2%


Austria
1
1140
0.1%


Belarus
2
1245
0.2%


Bulgaria
2
430
0.5%


Croatia
1
381
0.3%


Czech Republic
1
1137
0.1%


England
1
38191
< 0.1 %


Germany
3
19996
< 0.1 %
Saxony (1)

Greece
1
1064
0.1%


Hungary
2
1910
0.1%


Italy
1
5401
< 0.1 %


Lithuania
3
1752
0.2%


Macedonia
1
124
0.8%


Poland
8
6212
0.1%


Romania
3
852
0.4%


Russian Federation
9
7014
0.1%


Slovakia
2
790
0.3%


Slovenia
1
276
0.4%


Ukraine
6
2917
0.2%





*GENETIC DISTANCE -1*Country
Match Total
Country Total
Percentage
Comments

Albania
2
81
2.5%


Austria
2
1140
0.2%


Belarus
10
1245
0.8%


Bosnia and Herzegovina
9
188
4.8%


Bulgaria
6
430
1.4%


Croatia
8
381
2.1%


Czech Republic
3
1137
0.3%


Denmark
1
1342
0.1%


England
3
38191
< 0.1 %


Finland
1
4695
< 0.1 %


France
1
5681
< 0.1 %


Georgia
1
489
0.2%


Germany
13
19996
0.1%
German (1)

Greece
11
1064
1%


Hungary
8
1910
0.4%


Italy
2
5401
< 0.1 %


Kazakhstan
1
533
0.2%


Latvia
1
404
0.2%


Lithuania
4
1752
0.2%


Macedonia
3
124
2.4%


Moldova
1
145
0.7%


Montenegro
2
65
3.1%


Poland
37
6212
0.6%
Galicia (1)
Prussia (1)

Qatar
1
597
0.2%


Romania
4
852
0.5%


Russian Federation
32
7014
0.5%


Serbia
3
222
1.4%


Slovakia
11
790
1.4%


Slovenia
2
276
0.7%


Sweden
1
4877
< 0.1 %


Syrian Arab Republic
1
362
0.3%


Turkey
1
1266
0.1%


Ukraine
35
2917
1.2%


United Kingdom
1
14062
< 0.1 %


Uzbekistan
1
232
0.4%







*25 Marker**GENETIC DISTANCE -1*Country
Match Total
Country Total
Percentage
Comments

Lithuania
1
1238
0.1%





*GENETIC DISTANCE -2*Country
Match Total
Country Total
Percentage
Comments

Belarus
1
939
0.1%


Croatia
1
216
0.5%


Italy
1
3078
< 0.1 %


Lithuania
1
1238
0.1%


Poland
4
4256
0.1%


Slovenia
1
157
0.6%


Ukraine
1
2114
< 0.1 %







*37 Marker**GENETIC DISTANCE -4*Country
Match Total
Country Total
Percentage
Comments

Lithuania
1
1175
0.1%


Poland
1
4078
< 0.1 %


Ukraine
1
2033
< 0.1 %







*67 Marker*No Matches Found



*111 Marker**You have not purchased the upgrade to this level of testing.*

----------


## Angela

> Seanp; We can't associate Germanic haplogroups to modern Germans. Northern Italy was colonized by tonns of Germanic tribes who might be genetically the same as North Italians now than German speakers today.


What??? So, Germanic groups in pre-history had totally different haplogroups than they have today??? Where is your proof of that? Believe me, I don't think following the y lineages is the only way to track migrations, but it's certainly one way. What are you substituting in the absence of uniparental markers, ancient dna, etc., a crystal ball?






> Yet many Sicilians or Italian Americans today claim Norman heritage. (It's a solely mistake all these people concern on anthroforums)


What's the problem with claiming Norman heritage? Given how good our church records are, it's perfectly plausible that someone would be able to prove descent from one of the Norman lords or men at arms. The males of that line might possess yDna connected to either Scandinavia or France. That doesn't mean that there was much autosomal impact, although with enough endogamy in the family or village there might be some.




> for contrary I don't see what's the problem for someone to mention the Berber/Carhagian ancestry in South Italy but not the Norman or Lombard. - Maybe those groups can't be viewed as European to fit someone's agenda. **Cough cough**


The only one with an agenda on this thread is you. Who says there's a problem with carrying a "Berber" y line? Who says there's a problem with having some minor ancestry from the Saracens? Certainly not me. Granted, I'm not southern Italian myself, but I assure you it doesn't bother my husband, who is southern Italian, one iota that he carries a small percentage of NA and some tenths of a percent of SSA on 23andme. 

The point is to strive for accuracy, and the evidence shows that the percentage of what could be called "Berber" lines in Sicily and adjacent southern Italy is low, as you would know if you had been following the genetics instead of just posting the the same unsourced generalities on site after site. As for the Carthaginians, so far as I know, they only had two emporia in northwestern Sicily. I doubt that made a huge impact autosomally. If you're talking about J2a, I don't know where or when most of it arrived. We await ancient dna.




> The same exact phenomenon exist among Antro Iberians who tries to distract themselves from Moors/North Africans but can't delete the 800 years of Moorish rule in Iberia.


I think people should realize that anthrofora Italians, Iberians, Poles, Americans and any other ethnic group don't necessarily speak for all members of their group. 




> So what prevents people like you calling Italians Jews non Italians when there's no strict definition on what Italian means to be. If a Jew identifty as Italian he has the right to be called as such, the same way someone of Lombard, Germanic, Italic ancestry is not less Italian than someone of Greek ancestry from the South.


Where the heck did I ever say that I don't consider Italian Jews Italians? Italian Jews have been patriotic Italians ever since they were freed from the ghettos and given their civil rights. They were a very well assimilated group and have contributed mightily to Italian culture.

The fact remains that their genetic history is different, a combination of ancient settlers in Rome, Sephardim who arrived after the expulsions in other parts of Europe, and then some Ashkenazim as well. Their own religious and cultural laws have meant that they have remained very endogamous. That was true to some extent even within the Jewish community, with separate marriage patterns, liturgy and liturgical languages etc. For example, there are Ashkenazi rite Italian Jews, Sephardic rite Italian Jews, and Italkim, who have their own unique Italian rite. 




> That's my identity and i don't identify myself based on DNA results. I have no problem to embrace "European" and "Asian" heritage of my ancestry as that's what makes someone Hungarian. 
> But to us these are just meaningless labels as we know Europe didn't even exist before the entry of Judo-Christianity which made this pseudo term "European"
> I can't degrade myself to identify with modern French or Germans who sooner or later become a land of Turks and Muslims and redefine the definition of European under the blue flag.


Oh, I see, it's only Italians who have to identify themselves strictly genetically? Hungarians like yourself don't have to follow that rule?

What I also see is that you don't understand genetics and that you contradict yourself at every turn. 

There's no point to any further interaction on this topic.

----------


## Sile

> Bergamo is the HGDP sample used in calculators like Eurogenes to represent North Italians.


thanks, it still does not answer the question

what about 

Dodecad North_Italian ( HGDP ) must then = Eurogenes Bergamo ............is this correct?


It was once said ( and I cannot find it ) that dodecad has................. N_italian was NE-Italian , their N-Italian was NW-Italian, their O_Italian where out of Italy italians ( ie, istrians, dalmatians, tyrolese etc ) and of course North_Italian their Bergamo ..............is this correct?


1 
N_Italian (Dodecad)
6.68

2
O_Italian (Dodecad)
9.29

3
North_Italian (HGDP)
9.84




We do not even have clarity in this

----------


## New Englander

@DMZ, what is that chart you posted? Iv never seen that kind of set up, or analysis. Is that your results?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> thanks, it still does not answer the question
> 
> what about 
> 
> Dodecad North_Italian ( HGDP ) must then = Eurogenes Bergamo ............is this correct?



Yes, it's correct. Dodecad North_Italian (HGDP) is the same of Bergamo HGDP used also by Eurogenes, sometimes labelled as Italian_Bergamo, and it's definitely the North-Western Italian sample. The sample is composed of 13 individuals from Bergamo (but not always the calculators' population average is based on the entire sample, Dodecad usually has 11 out of 13).

N_Italian (Dodecad) is a north Italian sample collected by Diekenes himself, there are surely at least one or two Northern-Eastern Italians in this sample, but likely also someone else from other parts of North Italy, it's not clear. Anyway this sample is composed of 5 individuals, if I remember correctly.

O_Italian is Other Italian, a sample collected by Dodecad/Diekenes of ethnic Italians with probably mixed Italian roots and they are originally from historical Italian communities abroad (Istria, Dalmatia...). They were labelled Other_Italians because they don't come from a specific Italian area.

----------


## Hauteville

Luckily this study can answer to many questions on this thread. Germanic Y-DNA in Southern Italy and Sicily are much bigger than Berber one, and the same few Berber or Arabic Y-DNA are not introduced by Muslim conquest, who only touched mostly the Western part of Sicily, while in the East was much more shorter and with no cultural penetration. Mainland South Italy had only some coastal conquest for shorter time, but in both cases nothing comparable to Arabo-Berber conquest of Iberia and Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.
Only two of five E-M81 detected in this study (four in Sicily and one in Calabria in 326 samples) have the same haplotype of North African E-M81, while J1 is introduced in the Bronze age not with muslims conquest, our J1 usually do not belong to J1 L222 which is the typical Arabian marker, but with our haplotype.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0096074

At this respect, the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M81 is widely associated in literature with recent gene flows from North-Africa [49]. Besides the low frequency (1.5%) of E-M81 lineages in general observed in our SSI dataset, the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 [8] has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool.

However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (32611345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained

----------


## Seanp

> What??? So, Germanic groups in pre-history had totally different haplogroups than they have today??? Where is your proof of that? Believe me, I don't think following the y lineages is the only way to track migrations, but it's certainly one way. What are you substituting in the absence of uniparental markers, ancient dna, etc., a crystal ball?


Neolithic Stuttgart who lived in Germany was genetically more southern (Neolithic farmer) than any Southern European living today, if we consider that the EHG/SHG waves of migrations started since the Bronze age it's quite possible that tribes who might had been Germanic speakers were more Southern/Neolithic genetically and it had nothing to do with their cultural identity. 

My theory is that before the appear of Pestilence most of Europe was genetically significantly more Southern shifted than now. 
After the appeal of Pestilence North European tribes migrated to South and started to spread Northern genes. 







> What's the problem with claiming Norman heritage? Given how good our church records are, it's perfectly plausible that someone would be able to prove descent from one of the Norman lords or men at arms. The males of that line might possess yDna connected to either Scandinavia or France. That doesn't mean that there was much autosomal impact, although with enough endogamy in the family or village there might be some.


There's nothing wrong with claiming North European/Norman heritage. 




> The only one with an agenda on this thread is you. Who says there's a problem with carrying a "Berber" y line? Who says there's a problem with having some minor ancestry from the Saracens? Certainly not me. Granted, I'm not southern Italian myself, but I assure you it doesn't bother my husband, who is southern Italian, one iota that he carries a small percentage of NA and some tenths of a percent of SSA on 23andme.


People should understand that Y-dna displays little to no evidence of population exchanges due to bottleneck effect and cases of inbreeding. Take consider that Argentinean people often end up 80-95% European yet 80-90% of their Female (mtdna) lineages trace back to Native American, African women due the lack of European women and inbreeding. 

Othervise the 90% R1b Northern Cameroonians should be 40% West Eurasian but they end up 100% Sub Saharan just like their southern E1a, B2 countymen. 

Yes the recent North African input is minimal in Europe except parts of Iberia.

----------


## Azzurro

> Luckily this study can answer to many questions on this thread. Germanic Y-DNA in Southern Italy and Sicily are much bigger than Berber one, and the same few Berber or Arabic Y-DNA are not introduced by Muslim conquest, who only touched mostly the Western part of Sicily, while in the East was much more shorter and with no cultural penetration. Mainland South Italy had only some coastal conquest for shorter time, but in both cases nothing comparable to Arabo-Berber conquest of Iberia and Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.
> Only two of five E-M81 detected in this study (four in Sicily and one in Calabria in 326 samples) have the same haplotype of North African E-M81, while J1 is introduced in the Bronze age not with muslims conquest, our J1 usually do not belong to J1 L222 which is the typical Arabian marker, but with our haplotype.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0096074
> 
> At this respect, the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M81 is widely associated in literature with recent gene flows from North-Africa [49]. Besides the low frequency (1.5%) of E-M81 lineages in general observed in our SSI dataset, the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 [8] has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool.
> 
> However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (3261�1345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained



Very true with the Germanic impact is higher than the Berber one in Sicily, both collectively probably impact 5% of total Sicilian dna. I1 and R1a seem to be from the Germanic tribes into Sicily, however further snp testing needs to be done to determine whether Vandals and Ostrogoths were the main source, I would assume R1a but for I1 Normans and Swabians could have brought it. In terms of Berber I do not know which specific clade is associated with the Berbers of the Emirate period but I was able to find 4 on ftdna in Sicily, 1 E-M183 in the province of Messina, 2 in Caltanissetta under E-CTS12555 and E-PF6789, those 3 are under E-M81 and there is one E-V65 in Catania I would say this is Berber as well very frequent in North Africa and is rare in Sicily. Not sure about J1 as there is quite a few clades in Sicily, the most frequent seems to be the J-CTS1460 branch which seems to be Caucasian, might be a neolithic farmer clade in the case.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> My theory is that before the appear of Pestilence most of Europe was genetically significantly more Southern shifted than now. 
> After the appeal of Pestilence North European tribes migrated to South and started to spread Northern genes.


Which source is your theory based on? There are no migrations of North European tribes recorderd after the 1346–1353 pestilence. Your theory is based on conjecture, which approaches pure flights of fantasy.

Early Germanic Y-DNA in southern Europe, and specifically in Italy, dates back to Ancient Roman times. The most numerous North European tribes migrations to South happened after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and descreased around 1100/1200 AD.





> That's my identity and i don't identify myself based on DNA results.


You're a good example of double standard.





> Luckily this study can answer to many questions on this thread. Germanic Y-DNA in Southern Italy and Sicily are much bigger than Berber one, and the same few Berber or Arabic Y-DNA are not introduced by Muslim conquest, who only touched mostly the Western part of Sicily, while in the East was much more shorter and with no cultural penetration. Mainland South Italy had only some coastal conquest for shorter time, but in both cases nothing comparable to Arabo-Berber conquest of Iberia and Ottoman conquest of the Balkans.


Indeed.

----------


## DNZ

> @DMZ, what is that chart you posted? Iv never seen that kind of set up, or analysis. Is that your results?


Familytreedna,Y-dna67 marker Ancestral Origins results of mine.

----------


## Hauteville

> Very true with the Germanic impact is higher than the Berber one in Sicily, both collectively probably impact 5% of total Sicilian dna. I1 and R1a seem to be from the Germanic tribes into Sicily, however further snp testing needs to be done to determine whether Vandals and Ostrogoths were the main source, I would assume R1a but for I1 Normans and Swabians could have brought it. In terms of Berber I do not know which specific clade is associated with the Berbers of the Emirate period but I was able to find 4 on ftdna in Sicily, 1 E-M183 in the province of Messina, 2 in Caltanissetta under E-CTS12555 and E-PF6789, those 3 are under E-M81 and there is one E-V65 in Catania I would say this is Berber as well very frequent in North Africa and is rare in Sicily. Not sure about J1 as there is quite a few clades in Sicily, the most frequent seems to be the J-CTS1460 branch which seems to be Caucasian, might be a neolithic farmer clade in the case.


Germanic YDNA is bigger than 5% while E-V65 could not be entered in the short muslim period. Passa is an expert of E-V65 and he tolds me there are two haplotypes, one specific of Europe and another for Maghreb. Anyway muslims were expelled, Germanic peoples not.

----------


## Azzurro

> Germanic YDNA is bigger than 5% while E-V65 could not be entered in the short muslim period. Passa is an expert of E-V65 and he tolds me there are two haplotypes, one specific of Europe and another for Maghreb. Anyway muslims were expelled, Germanic peoples not.


I'm not sure Germanic YDNA accounts more than 5% maybe in certain areas, it just does not show in autosomal, just look at all the people who tested on ftdna and nat geo you rarely hear people getting % of Scandinavian or Western Central European, I get zero. Though that does not mean it's the total picture, I agree with you Germanic if you include Swabians and Normans does surpass North African, as for the Vandal and Ostrogoths they had Sicily for 110 years, the Emirate of Sicily was in place for close to 240 years in some places nearly double, yes certain parts of Sicily particularly the East, like Taormina with all the revolts and somewhat were under Muslim control less than 120 years, but still... As for the expelled yes Muslim Berbers were expelled to Lucera and a couple of other Southern Italian villages, but there was conversions, for North African to still appear in Sicilian autosomal, there must of have quite a few converts, as for numbers I don't know. Whatever the numbers it cannot be comparable to the Iberian peninsula as you mentioned earlier parts of Spain (Andalucia) were almost under Muslim control for 700 years, its apples and oranges for a comparison. I don't think E-V65 in Sicily is European but rather Berber, it is so rare that I wouldn't see how any neolithic expansion could have brought it, E-V22 has a strong case of being an earlier diffusion, it is still rare but more common that E-V65 in Sicily.

----------


## Seanp

There's no genetic difference between East and West Sicily, as we can't take account that the Western part of the Island was under Norman, Phoenician etc. rules when migrations happened on the island from West to East and barely any people descend from the same village they were born. It's just as absurd as to say someone from Berlin had the same roots living there since 1000 A.D 

The genetic study of Sicily worth as much as if we would make a genetic study on East vs West Cyprus (basically zero sense) the only difference comes when people get tested from Lombard towns which has recent North Italian input and when it comes to genetic all Sicilians (and South Italians) cluster somewhere between Central Italians and Greek Islanders because the only significant foreign input was from Greeks apart from Lombards.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> There's no genetic difference between East and West Sicily, as we can't take account that the Western part of the Island was under Norman, Phoenician etc. rules when migrations happened on the island from West to East and barely any people descend from the same village they were born. It's just as absurd as to say someone from Berlin had the same roots living there since 1000 A.D 
> 
> The genetic study of Sicily worth as much as if we would make a genetic study on East vs West Cyprus (basically zero sense) the only difference comes when people get tested from Lombard towns which has recent North Italian input and when it comes to genetic all Sicilians (and South Italians) cluster somewhere between Central Italians and Greek Islanders because the only significant foreign input was from Greeks apart from Lombards.


You're derailing completely this thread, moreover with a lot of misinformation. There are no people from the Lombard towns in Sicily tested in any study. Recent North Italian/Lombard input in Sicily? It's 900/800 years old, very recent indeed.

In any case you should tell your friend Sikeliot that he can directy post his nonsense and conjecture. He has still an account in this forum.




> I'm not sure Germanic YDNA accounts more than 5% maybe in certain areas


This map was made by anthrogenica's user Passa based on specific subclades. Of course it's not a peer-reviewed stuff.

----------


## Seanp

^^ Sicily has been receiving migrations from Mainland Italy as well from all corners of Europe and the Mediterranean basin. Nobody claims Saracen heritage but it's clear that if we consider Autosomal dna the estimated North European ancestry is the lowest there after Sardinia. The study which was linked to prove the weak Arabic compared to North European ancestry stated what Autosomal studies display that the Southern part of Italy (inc Sicily, Malta) hasn't changed much since the late Bronze age being primarly Neolithic Levant-Anatolian with minor Indo-European like ancestry.

----------


## Angela

OK. Enough is enough. This is not the thread for an extensive and detailed analysis of Italian genetics. Is that clear? You're on notice, seanp.

----------


## cylnlts

my results



Kit Num: T220060 
1.000 ayarlanmış bileşenlerin Eşik 
% 0.25 olarak ayarlanmış yntemin Eşiğinde 
Kişisel veriler okundu. 20 yaklaşımlar modu.
*Gedmatch.Com**HarappaWorld 4-Atalar Oracle*Bu program, Alexandr Burnashev gre 4-Ata Oracle srm 0.96 dayanır. 
[email protected]: sonular hakkında sorular kendisine gnderilmesi gerekmektedir 
Sergey Kozlov tarafından nerilen Orijinal kavram. 
Bize yardımcı olduğunuz iin Alexandr iin ok teşekkr ederiz, bu web srm geliştirdi olsun. 

23 Nisan 2013 - Oracle referans nfus yzdeleri revize edilmiştir. 

*Admix Sonular (sıralı):

#
nfus
Yzde

1
Kafkas
39.44

2
Baloch
14.37

3
Akdeniz
13.89

4
SW-Asya
11.74

5
NE-Euro
10.46

6
NE-Asya
2.68

7
S-Hint
2.20

8
Beringian
1.78

9
Sibirya
1.37




Nfus verileri okuma bitirdi. 377 poplasyonları bulundu. 
16 bileşenler modu. 

-------------------------------- 

En kk kareler yntemi. 

1 nfus yaklaşımı kullanılarak: 
1 turk-kayseri 7.651587 @ 
7,653186 @ 2 turk-istanbul 
3 turk-aydin 7,767722 @ 
4 Trk 8,824174 @ 
5 turk @ 9,285530 
6 ermeni 11,905169 @ 
7 Azeri 12,057047 @ 
8 uzbekistan-yahudi 14,820162 @ 
15.110064 @ 9 kurd 
10 Lbnan @ 15.264257 
11 Lbnan-mslman 15,303683 @ 
12 Kıbrıslı 15,349828 @ 
13 Aşkenaz-yahudi @ 15,399670 
14 iraqi-arab 15,537961 @ 
16,303885 @ 15 kuzey-Oset 
16,317814 @ 16 Sefarad-yahudi 
16,476582 @ iranian 17 
16,639181 @ Filistinli 18 
16.753130 @ Suriyeli 19 
20 16.832850 @ kurd 

2 nfusları kullanma Yaklaşım: 
1% 50 Aşkenaz-yahudi +% 50 azeri 3.283274 @ 


3 nfusları kullanma Yaklaşım: 
1% 50 Kıbrıslı +% 25 tajik +% 25 turk aydin-2.098772 @ 


4 nfusları kullanma Yaklaşım: 
1 Ashkenazi + georgian + fas-yahudi + turkmen 1,670837 @ 
1,803299 @ 2 Aşkenaz-yahudi + Grc + fas-yahudi + Trkmenlerin 
3 Drzi + trk + turkmen + tuscan 1,870414 @ 
4 Drzi + trk + turkmen + tuscan @ 1,875345 
5 + Lbnan-mslman ermeni trkmen + Toskana @ 1,920042 
6 + Lbnan-mslman ermeni + turkmen + tuscan 1,920232 @ 
1,932068 @ 7 Aşkenazi + Kıbrıslı + trk + turkmen 
1,939520 + tuscan 8 ermeni + Lbnan + Trkmenler 
9 Drzi + trk + turkmen + tuscan @ 1,948603 
10 ermeni + italyan 1.962133 + turkmen + Lbnan-drzi 
1,963442 + tuscan 11 + Lbnan-mslman ermeni + Trkmen 
1,965451 + tuscan 12 ermeni + Lbnan + Trkmen 
1,970183 + tuscan 13 ermeni + Suriye + Trkmenler 
14 ermeni + Lbnan-mslman + Trkmenlerin + Toskana @ 1.987924 
15 Aşkenaz + azeri + Kıbrıslı + turkmen @ 1,991716 
16 + Lbnan-mslman ermeni + turkmen + tuscan @ 2,006990 
17 ermeni + Suriye + turkmen + tuscan @ 2,015513 
18 ermeni + Lbnan + turkmen + tuscan @ 2,023961 
19 ermeni + Suriye + turkmen + Toskana 2,034332 @ 
2.035268 @ Toskana 20 Lbnan-Drzi + turk + Trkmenler + 

Bitti.
*

----------


## tahir0010

Where did you find these charts.

----------


## LeBrok

> Where did you find these charts.


Please use the "Reply With Quote" button when communicated with someone or responding to a post. Otherwise we don't know who you are talking to, and what you mean.

----------


## Northener

> Baloch is from EHG and Iranian Farmers/CHG mix, both came from East with Indo Europeans/Corded Ware/Celts and Greeks. 
> Main source of Caucasian was EEF in Europe. IE brought some too, but they rather diluted what was already there than added.
> Mediterranean was present in WHG, especially the ones closer to the Med Sea, later some more came with EEF farmers. The highest level so far was in Neolithic Spain up to 60%. Your *increased Med might point to some relationship with Spain and area.* Netherlands in general or you personal. With more contemporary European samples we should know better soon.


On second thought: could the Bell Beakers mean the difference between the (North) Dutch and Polish guys like you or Tomenable? The Spanish connection was an eye opener for me. North Dutch (=NW European gene pool) and Poland (=NE European gene pool) share much of the same genetic, population developments, but when it comes to a (tiny) difference it could be the Bell Beakers and the influence from Iberia.....or?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2016/06...ontext-of.html

----------


## LeBrok

Here is expended table. I added Finland, Latvia and Lithuania samples. (samples with percentage sign are from original Harappa database).
Latvia and Lithuania look almost the same. Lithuania has a tiny bit more EEF farmer, I would say.
Finland is a surprise. It has 3% of SW Asian. SW Asian peaks in ancient Natufians. It got to Europe through EEF farmers. The problem is that Finnish people have very little of EEF. So where did it come from?
Another surprise is that I don't see much of Yamnaya input in them. For me their genome looks like 80% SHG 10% EEF and 10% Siberian. Well, at least at first glance.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Finland
4
1
4
2
72
0
5
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

russian
behar
1%
4%
13%
64%
1%
3%
0%
1%
1%
1%
13%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

belorussian
behar
1%
5%
10%
64%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
16%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

ukranian
yunusbayev
1%
6%
12%
58%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
17%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

slovenian
xing
1%
6%
15%
51%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
23%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0

hungarian
behar
0%
7%
15%
49%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%
24%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
2
0
6
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
29
8
0
0
0
0

Greek, mainland
3
0
6
32
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
11
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

As I mentioned in the post above, I'm finding the Finish HarappaWorld run weird. It shows elevated SW Asian at 3%, way higher than any North European country. I would expect it at 0%. How did it get there from Near East?

Second thing is that they don't have much common with Yamnaya or Corded Ware. Their Baloch is extremely low, North Euro too high and they have Med admixture. Not mentioning lots of North Eurasian and extra SW Asian. With high NE Euro and some Med, they resemble more of Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer than anything else. Have a look: First one is Motala the SHG, Second - Modern Finnish, third - Yamnaya guy

 F999917
 I-L416

 Modern

 M828815
 Rise552

 Motala 12 Östergötland, Sweden
 7 kya

 Finnish

 Ulan iV, Yamnaya
 4.5 kya

 Run time
 8.67

 Run time
 15.00

 Run time
 9.08

 S-Indian
 -

 S-Indian
 1.00

 S-Indian
 -

 Baloch
 -

 Baloch
 4.00

 Baloch
 33.24

 Caucasian
 -

 Caucasian
 2.00

 Caucasian
 6.58

 NE-Euro
 90.24

 NE-Euro
 72.00

 NE-Euro
 56.02

 SE-Asian
 -

 SE-Asian
 -

 SE-Asian
 -

 Siberian
 0.07

 Siberian
 5.00

 Siberian
 -

 NE-Asian
 -

 NE-Asian
 1.00

 NE-Asian
 -

 Papuan
 0.57

 Papuan
 -

 Papuan
 -

 American
 1.58

 American
 -

 American
 2.46

 Beringian
 0.68

 Beringian
 1.00

 Beringian
 0.75

 Mediterranean
 6.83

 Mediterranean
 11.00

 Mediterranean
 -

 SW-Asian
 -

 SW-Asian
 3.00

 SW-Asian
 -

 San
 -

 San
 -

 San
 -

 E-African
 -

 E-African
 -

 E-African
 -

 Pygmy
 -

 Pygmy
 -

 Pygmy
 -

 W-African
 -

 W-African
 -

 W-African
 0.95

----------


## LeBrok

First one is Yamnaya, Second SHG, Third is Hungarian Neolithic and Fourth is Unknown Siberian, Fifth is the Model, and Sixth is the real modern Finnish, to compare the model to.




0.13


0.7


0.1


0.07







M828815
Rise552

F999917
I-L416

F999928
NE7, I-L1228
Unknown Siberian

Modelled Fin

Modern


Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Motala 12 Östergötland, Sweden
7 kya

Hungary, Apc-Berekalja I
6.4kya







Fin


Run time
9.08

Run time
8.67

Run time
6.72

Run time
0

Run time


Run time
15

S0Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 1.00

Baloch
33.24

Baloch
0

Baloch
0

Baloch
0

Baloch
 4.32

Baloch
4

Caucasian
6.58

Caucasian
0

Caucasian
19.04

Caucasian
0

Caucasian
 2.76

Caucasian
2

NE0Euro
56.02

NE-Euro
90.24

NE-Euro
16.69

NE-Euro
20

NE-Euro
 73.52

NE-Euro
72

SE0Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0.07

Siberian
0

Siberian
80

Siberian
 5.65

Siberian
5

NE0Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
1

Papuan
0

Papuan
0.57

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
 0.40

Papuan
0

American
2.46

American
1.58

American
0

American
0

American
 1.43

American
0

Beringian
0.75

Beringian
0.68

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
 0.57

Beringian
1

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
6.83

Mediterranean
56.18

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
 10.40

Mediterranean
11

SW0Asian
0

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
7.96

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
 0.80

SW-Asian
3

San
0

San
0

San
0

San
0

San
 -

San
-

E0African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
 -

E-African
-

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
-

W0African
0.95

W-African
0

W-African
0.11

W-African
0.11

W-African
 0.14

W-African
-

----------


## cyeeyc

Regarding the Harappaworld calculator:
South Indian: 1.05
Baloch: 10.80
Caucasian: 8.25
NE European: 47.00
NE-Asian: .68
Papuaun: .14
Beringian: .47
Mediterranean: 29.79
SW Asian: 1.15
San: .23
W-African: .11

----------


## LeBrok

> Regarding the Harappaworld calculator:
> South Indian: 1.05
> Baloch: 10.80
> Caucasian: 8.25
> NE European: 47.00
> NE-Asian: .68
> Papuaun: .14
> Beringian: .47
> Mediterranean: 29.79
> ...


From what I have you fit Netherlands the best, although your lower NE Euro would put you more south off it. Check post 401 above. You can go to first page where components are explained.

----------


## LeBrok

Common guys and girls we need more samples from around Europe. Keep them coming.

----------


## Gaga

> Common guys and girls we need more samples from around Europe. Keep them coming.


Anything, in particular, you're after? I know a few Europeans. 

Not sure if you'd want mine (below) either. I'm British. But as Tomenable said 1st page Romanichal/Gypsy ancestry gives more than just a little S. Indian. 

# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 35.20
2 Mediterranean 25.16
3 Caucasian 17.35
4 Baloch 12.39
5 S-Indian 8.27
6 SE-Asian 0.61
6 American 0.35
7 Papuan 0.31
8 Beringian 0.31
9 Siberian 0.05

----------


## LeBrok

> Anything, in particular, you're after? I know a few Europeans. 
> 
> Not sure if you'd want mine (below) either. I'm British. But as Tomenable said 1st page Romanichal/Gypsy ancestry gives more than just a little S. Indian. 
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 35.20
> 2 Mediterranean 25.16
> 3 Caucasian 17.35
> 4 Baloch 12.39
> ...


Thanks Gaga, post 401 shows what we have right now and what is needed. You can refer to post 1 for explanation of admixtures. Mostly people with grandparents from one country are needed, or even better from one region. I have nothing against your genome, but this is the nature of this beast. :)

And welcome to Eupedia.

----------


## LeBrok

> Anything, in particular, you're after? I know a few Europeans. 
> 
> Not sure if you'd want mine (below) either. I'm British. But as Tomenable said 1st page Romanichal/Gypsy ancestry gives more than just a little S. Indian. 
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 35.20
> 2 Mediterranean 25.16
> 3 Caucasian 17.35
> 4 Baloch 12.39
> ...


 Compared to NW European you have 7.5% S Indian more, 4% more Baloch and 8% more Caucasian. I think your S Indian ancestors stopped in Near East and picked up extra Caucasian, before arriving in Europe. Or maybe a population in West India or Pakistan has these proportions?

----------


## Gaga

> Thanks Gaga, post 401 shows what we have right now and what is needed. You can refer to post 1 for explanation of admixtures. Mostly people with grandparents from one country are needed, or even better from one region. I have nothing against your genome, but this is the nature of this beast. :)
> 
> And welcome to Eupedia.


Thanks for the welcome. By the way, all my great-grandparents are British-born. Romanichals have been in the country for a while.

----------


## Stuvanè

That's mine from Italy (Eastern Emilia/Romagna)

1
Mediterranean
29.75

2
NE-Euro
28.85

3
Caucasian
26

4
SW-Asian
8.93

5
Baloch
5.51

6
Siberian
0.35

7
SE-Asian
0.26

8
W-African
0.2

9
Beringian
0.13

----------


## LeBrok

> That's mine from Italy (Eastern Emilia/Romagna)
> 
> 1
> Mediterranean
> 29.75
> 
> 2
> NE-Euro
> 28.85
> ...


Thanks, very useful. I had nothing from this part of Italy. It seems very close to Tuscan DNA. Welcome to Eupedia.

----------


## Pratt

Three results from Italy


Italy, NW (Piedmont)

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 33.98
2 Mediterranean 31.87
3 Caucasian 19.48
4 Baloch 7.13
5 SW-Asian 6.97
6 S-Indian 0.35
7 W-African 0.21

Italy, NE (Veneto)

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 34.04
2 NE-Euro 33.47
3 Caucasian 18.66
4 SW-Asian 7.13
5 Baloch 5.66
6 Siberian 0.43
7 SE-Asian 0.25
8 Beringian 0.20
9 American 0.13
10 San 0.04


Italy, Tuscany

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 34.01
2 NE-Euro 28.14
3 Caucasian 22.71
4 SW-Asian 8.29
5 Baloch 6.02
6 S-Indian 0.51
7 E-African 0.21
8 American 0.07

----------


## LeBrok

> Three results from Italy
> 
> 
> Italy, NW (Piedmont)
> 
> Admix Results (sorted):
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 33.98
> 2 Mediterranean 31.87
> ...


Thanks Pratt.

----------


## Stuvanè

> Thanks, very useful. I had nothing from this part of Italy. It seems very close to Tuscan DNA. Welcome to Eupedia.


Thanks for the welcome, LeBrok. Yes, as you say it's very similar to average tuscan results. 
In my mixed mode population sharing it refines the result combining about 80-90% tuscan + 10-20% eastern european (russian, ukrainan, hungarian...).
And that's so running some other calculators (Dodecad, Eurogenes...)

----------


## DNZ

Mother
*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
31.4

2
Caucasian
25.78

3
Mediterranean
20.03

4
Baloch
9.95

5
SW-Asian
5.73

6
Siberian
3.22

7
SE-Asian
1.73

8
Beringian
0.76

9
S-Indian
0.62

10
NE-Asian
0.54

11
E-African
0.23


*
Father
#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
30.64

2
Caucasian
26.96

3
Mediterranean
18.62

4
Baloch
9.44

5
SW-Asian
6.88

6
Siberian
4.42

7
NE-Asian
1.35

8
Beringian
0.56

9
Papuan
0.52

10
S-Indian
0.32

11
San
0.13

12
E-African
0.08

13
Pygmy
0.07




































*

----------


## Apsurdistan

harapa.gif

that's mine on harapa

----------


## LeBrok

Modeled Yamnaya.
First 3 are the source with proportions on the top. I'm not sure about Hungarian Neolithic but it helps the numbers.
Forth is Modeled Yamnayan out of first 3 dudes. Fifth is actual Yamnayan for comparison.


0.27


0.68


0.05







M967114 I1290

M737081


M325047
KO1, I-L68

Modeled Yamnaya

M828815
Rise552

Iranian Neolithic
10 kya

Kvalinsk HG (I0122+I0124+I0433)
Hungarian, Tiszaszőlős-Domaháza
7.7 kya




Ulan iV, Yamnaya
4.5 kya

Run time
7.91

Run time
8.15

Run time
9.43

Run time


Run time
9.08

S-Indian
6.13

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
 1.66

S-Indian
0

Baloch
62.71

Baloch
20.2

Baloch
0

Baloch
 30.67

Baloch
33.24

Caucasian
24.97

Caucasian
0

Caucasian
0

Caucasian
 6.74

Caucasian
6.58

NE-Euro
0

NE-Euro
71.08

NE-Euro
80.37

NE-Euro
 52.35

NE-Euro
56.02

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
 -

Siberian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
0

Papuan
0.35

Papuan
0

Papuan
0.53

Papuan
 0.12

Papuan
0

American
0

American
6.89

American
0

American
 4.69

American
2.46

Beringian
0

Beringian
1.7

Beringian
0

Beringian
 1.16

Beringian
0.75

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
0

Mediterranean
18.59

Mediterranean
 0.93

Mediterranean
0

SW-Asian
3.88

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
0

SW-Asian
 1.05

SW-Asian
0

San
0.18

San
0

San
0

San
 0.05

San
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
 -

E-African
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
0

W-African
1.78

W-African
0.13

W-African
0.5

W-African
 0.59

W-African
0.95

----------


## Dibran

Im surprised its still just me and my father on the Albanian sample. Would it help if i got some kit results for other Albanians to add?

----------


## LeBrok

> Im surprised its still just me and my father on the Albanian sample. Would it help if i got some kit results for other Albanians to add?


Couple more wouldn't hurt. :)

----------


## Promenade

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
47.43

2
Mediterranean
31.21

3
Baloch
10.88

4
Caucasian
8.06

5
SW-Asian
1.68



looks eerily similar to the results some other Americans received

----------


## Aha

My HarappaWorld results
Ukrainian, Kyiv

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
56.66

2
Mediterranean
18.58

3
Caucasian
9.57

4
Baloch
8.59

5
S-Indian
2.38

6
SW-Asian
2.03

7
Siberian
1.81

8
E-African
0.37


*Must say I am surprised and cannot explain some of these numbers

----------


## LeBrok

> My HarappaWorld results
> Ukrainian, Kyiv
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> #
> Population
> Percent
> 
> ...


 Generally speaking you fit in Ukrainian landscape, however there are little nuances to mention. You have lower Caucasian and higher Baloch than average Ukrainian, together with higher S-Indian and Siberian might indicate more eastern influence of one of far ancestors...., after a second look, I think perhaps we are talking about 2 ancestors who were not typical Ukrainians. One from around Lithuania, the second from East Ukraine or even farther east. The "Lithuanian" ancestor can explain higher Baloch, lower Caucasian and higher Mediterranean. The one from East can explain lower NE Euro, higher S Indian and Siberian.

Your numbers of Baloch and lower Caucasian, and NE Euro are also typical for NW Europe, and might pull you this way on some calculators, but this is coincidental I think. From conglomeration of your ancestors. If your Med was 10 points higher your admixtures would say that you are Dutch. ;)

PS. We need more samples from all over Ukraine. And of course more from everywhere!

----------


## bix

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
48.49

2
Mediterranean
30.71

3
Baloch
9.19

4
Caucasian
8.23

5
Beringian
1.71

6
S-Indian
0.73

7
Papuan
0.55

8
SE-Asian
0.21

9
Siberian
0.16

10
SW-Asian
0.02

----------


## Dibran

> Couple more wouldn't hurt. :)


I got you! I have plenty through my gedmatch relatives. Il post their results shortly.

----------


## LeBrok

> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> NE-Euro
> 48.49
> 
> 2
> ...


You look pretty much NW European, though I don't have Swiss or South German genome to compare. Beringian is interesting, but no American admixture. That's something. Perhaps one of your ancestors 6-7 generations ago was Inuit?

----------


## Dibran

> Couple more wouldn't hurt. :)



Here you go LeBrok. There is more(which I will post later). All these kits are Albanian.


Kit# - M968981(Trojet)

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
28.66

2
NE-Euro
27.72

3
Mediterranean
26.01

4
SW-Asian
10.12

5
Baloch
6.41


*
Kit# - A486577

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.84

2
NE-Euro
27.60

3
Mediterranean
26.47

4
SW-Asian
8.79

5
Baloch
6.09


*

Kit#- M145528

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
29.58

2
Mediterranean
28.48

3
Caucasian
27.62

4
SW-Asian
6.79

5
Baloch
5.86

6
S-Indian
1.39


*
Kit#- M124104

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
28.04

2
Mediterranean
27.10

3
Caucasian
26.39

4
SW-Asian
9.59

5
Baloch
6.83

6
NE-Asian
1.31


*
Kit#- A906072

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
33.05

2
Mediterranean
25.72

3
Caucasian
25.15

4
SW-Asian
8.11

5
Baloch
6.71


*

Kit#- M205340

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
28.00

2
Caucasian
27.55

3
Mediterranean
26.32

4
SW-Asian
8.28

5
Baloch
8.25


*
Kit#- M549149( Montenegrin Albanian)

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
32.54

2
Mediterranean
24.41

3
Caucasian
24.34

4
SW-Asian
9.18

5
Baloch
8.05


*
Kit#- T511884(Kelmendasi)

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.02

2
NE-Euro
28.94

3
Mediterranean
28.68

4
SW-Asian
7.95

5
Baloch
4.99


*
Kit#- A566427


*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
32.88

2
Mediterranean
28.44

3
Caucasian
26.37

4
SW-Asian
7.14

5
Baloch
4.68


*
Kit#- A229969


*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
30.39

2
NE-Euro
28.59

3
Caucasian
26.66

4
Baloch
7.05

5
SW-Asian
6.11


*
Kit#- M507707

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.53

2
NE-Euro
27.90

3
Mediterranean
26.73

4
SW-Asian
8.65

5
Baloch
6.11


*
Kit#- M499066

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
29.17

2
NE-Euro
27.76

3
Caucasian
27.56

4
Baloch
7.31

5
SW-Asian
6.90

6
Siberian
1.10


*
Kit#- M697668

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
31.85

2
NE-Euro
30.35

3
Mediterranean
23.99

4
Baloch
7.03

5
SW-Asian
5.96


*
Kit#- A871425

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
29.34

2
NE-Euro
27.39

3
Mediterranean
26.18

4
SW-Asian
9.73

5
Baloch
6.54


*
Kit#- A906637

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasian
30.69

2
Mediterranean
27.84

3
NE-Euro
25.17

4
SW-Asian
8.85

5
Baloch
6.32


*


Kit#- A889964

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
29.31

2
Mediterranean
28.34

3
Caucasian
27.30

4
Baloch
7.10

5
SW-Asian
6.80


*

----------


## bix

> You look pretty much NW European, though I don't have Swiss or South German genome to compare. Beringian is interesting, but no American admixture. That's something. Perhaps one of your ancestors 6-7 generations ago was Inuit?


The odd thing is that wherever there's "Beringian" in a calculator I tend to be elevated--especially PuntDNAL, it's like 2.7. If there's no Beringian, then other things like South Asian and Siberian are higher. It's mildly perplexing.

Most of my family tree is is pretty nailed down and nobody got remotely near the arctic--the only wildcard is one great great granddad, my mom's dad's grandfather was allegedly born in southern Russia, probably associated with Melochna River Mennonites. I'm guessing some kind of Tatar, or some wayward group not well sampled. MDLP 4 ancestor oracle throws Cossack in the mix. Upon reflection that would probably be an apt description of my grandpa.

----------


## LeBrok

> The odd thing is that wherever there's "Beringian" in a calculator I tend to be elevated--especially PuntDNAL, it's like 2.7. If there's no Beringian, then other things like South Asian and Siberian are higher. It's mildly perplexing.
> 
> Most of my family tree is is pretty nailed down and nobody got remotely near the arctic--the only wildcard is one great great granddad, my mom's dad's grandfather was allegedly born in southern Russia, probably associated with Melochna River Mennonites. I'm guessing some kind of Tatar, or some wayward group not well sampled. MDLP 4 ancestor oracle throws Cossack in the mix. Upon reflection that would probably be an apt description of my grandpa.


Remember that if we go 6 generations back we had 64 ancestors. Is it possible to find all 64 of them from 150 years ago? 
You have only Beringian, without other admixtures which are popular in North/East Asia. Like NE Asian, Siberian or American. This means that the source of Beringian needed to be very clean and high, like Chukchi or Inuit. 
Having said that, with such small amount of admixture some other genetic forces can play tricks on us. So take it with a grain of salt. :)

----------


## LeBrok

> Here you go LeBrok. There is more(which I will post later). All these kits are Albanian.


Thanks, a nice collection. Should we split them into Gheg and Tosk, and then make an average Albanian? There is quite wide range, for example NE Euro can be 25 to 32 and similar with Med and Caucasian. Surprisingly a strong diversity in small population.
When I look at your personal numbers, gheg, they are the closest to Neolithic farmer admixtures from all Balkan ethnic groups. Well, from all I have. Gheg genetics did change with IE and other invasions, but the least of all.

----------


## Dibran

> Thanks, a nice collection. Should we split them into Gheg and Tosk, and then make an average Albanian? There is quite wide range, for example NE Euro can be 25 to 32 and similar with Med and Caucasian. Surprisingly a strong diversity in small population.
> When I look at your personal numbers, gheg, they are the closest to Neolithic farmer admixtures from all Balkan ethnic groups. Well, from all I have. Gheg genetics did change with IE and other invasions, but the least of all.


That would make sense. How would you do that exactly? I am uncertain about whether most of these are Gheg or Tosk. I know Trojet, and Kelmendasi are Ghegs. Unless you would be able to tell Gheg from Tosk based on their results?

Surprisingly for a Gheg my father plots south about. even in K36 oracle he gets predominantly southern Albanian with Greek Macedonian percentages and finally northern Albanians. 

I show as northern Albanian, southern Albanian and Greek Peloponnesus. Not sure how reliable these are but it would explain my father being an R1a Gheg. Perhaps displaced Greek R1a Thessaly or Greek Macedonia being assimilated into the northern Ghegs at some point in time?

Or is it possible that it was just via marriage(possibly through my grandmother). Being that autosomes recombine generationally. 

Could this minimal change be due to the mountain ranges in the north and the relative isolation it provided?

----------


## bix

> Remember that if we go 6 generations back we had 64 ancestors. Is it possible to find all 64 of them from 150 years ago? 
> You have only Beringian, without other admixtures which are popular in North/East Asia. Like NE Asian, Siberian or American. This means that the source of Beringian needed to be very clean and high, like Chukchi or Inuit. 
> Having said that, with such small amount of admixture some other genetic forces can play tricks on us. So take it with a grain of salt. :)


It's good to have a little bit of ambiguity in one's past. 

There's also this:

puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle results:
puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 46.68
2 ENF 26.04
3 CHG 21.36
4 Beringian 3.7
5 ASI 1.23
6 Amerindian 0.68
7 Sub-Saharan 0.17
8 Oceanian 0.16

A little bit of a stronger signal. Still, no clue where this could be coming from. Probably no way to find out either.

----------


## LeBrok

> It's good to have a little bit of ambiguity in one's past. 
> 
> There's also this:
> 
> puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle results:
> puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle
> 
> Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> ...


Right on, more pronounced. Looking at proportions of Beringian to Amerindian it must have been someone from Chukchi/Inuit/Eskimo like group. About 5-6 generations ago. Knowing racism of people way back, it must have been a big secret and shame for the whole family. No wonder it is so hard to find out now.

----------


## LeBrok

> That would make sense. How would you do that exactly? I am uncertain about whether most of these are Gheg or Tosk. I know *Trojet, and* *Kelmendasi are Ghegs*. Unless you would be able to tell Gheg from Tosk based on their results?
> 
> Surprisingly for a Gheg my father plots south about. even in K36 oracle he gets predominantly southern Albanian with Greek Macedonian percentages and finally northern Albanians. 
> 
> I show as northern Albanian, southern Albanian and Greek Peloponnesus. Not sure how reliable these are but it would explain my father being an R1a Gheg. Perhaps displaced Greek R1a Thessaly or Greek Macedonia being assimilated into the northern Ghegs at some point in time?
> 
> Or is it possible that it was just via marriage(possibly through my grandmother). Being that autosomes recombine generationally. 
> 
> Could this minimal change be due to the mountain ranges in the north and the relative isolation it provided?


They do look more Southern. I'll check the numbers more carefully tonight. Gheg has more Neolithic and Greek/Anatolian Bronze influences. Tosk, I believe, look more Northern/Steppe, but not as Northern as Macedonians, who has very obvious Slavic/Northern influence.

----------


## Dibran

> They do look more Southern. I'll check the numbers more carefully tonight. Gheg has more Neolithic and Greek/Anatolian Bronze influences. Tosk, I believe, look more Northern/Steppe, but not as Northern as Macedonians, who has very obvious Slavic/Northern influence.


Interesting. I figured it was the reverse. Higher steppe with Ghegs, and more Neolithic with tosks. Assuming because Neolithic climbs southward into Greece?

But given the low plains of the south, your stance makes more sense.

----------


## LeBrok

> Interesting. I figured it was the reverse. Higher steppe with Ghegs, and more Neolithic with tosks. Assuming because Neolithic climbs southward into Greece?
> 
> But given the low plains of the south, your stance makes more sense.


I think Greeks, let's say in Bronze Age, turned towards Armenian Bronze like, away from Neolithic. This shows in sharply rising Caucasian and falling Med. Ghegs look most Neolithic to me of all the Balkans. They should plot closest to Sardinians of all the Balkans. Well, unless the three Ghegs we have are not representative?

----------


## bix

> Right on, more pronounced. Looking at proportions of Beringian to Amerindian it must have been someone from Chukchi/Inuit/Eskimo like group. About 5-6 generations ago. Knowing racism of people way back, it must have been a big secret and shame for the whole family. No wonder it is so hard to find out now.


There may have been an adoption, one of my gg grandfathers, but there's no record. He would be this lady's father.

Ida.jpg

We were always told she was French.

----------


## Dibran

> I think Greeks, let's say in Bronze Age, turned towards Armenian Bronze like, away from Neolithic. This shows in sharply rising Caucasian and falling Med. Ghegs look most Neolithic to me of all the Balkans. They should plot closest to Sardinians of all the Balkans. Well, unless the three Ghegs we have are not representative?


Interesting. I known Trojet(if memory serves) is from Albanians of Western Macedonia. They still are classified as Gheg. 

Kelmendasi is Gheg from tribe of Kelmend in northern Albania. Me and my father from Diber in northeast Albania. 

On a PCA plot for the K15 me and my father did plot southward closer to Thessaly and Greek Macedonia, while kelmendasi among others plotted further north. 

That makes sense. When I looked at some of my results, thought not that close, I did notice Sardinian were closer on some percentages.

----------


## LeBrok

> There may have been an adoption, one of my gg grandfathers, but there's no record. He would be this lady's father.
> 
> Ida.jpg
> 
> We were always told she was French.


Yep, this might be your Inuit connection!

----------


## I1a3_Young

Gmom


Mom


Dad


Me


Bro


































#
Population
Percent
#
Population
Percent
#
Population
Percent
#
Population
Percent
#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
48.34
1
NE-Euro
48.94
1
NE-Euro
47.4
1
NE-Euro
48.27
1
NE-Euro
49.47

2
Mediterranean
30.62
2
Mediterranean
30.81
2
Mediterranean
31.63
2
Mediterranean
30.73
2
Mediterranean
30.54

3
Baloch
11.26
3
Baloch
9.53
3
Baloch
10.39
3
Baloch
10.01
3
Baloch
10.2

4
Caucasian
8.73
4
Caucasian
9.18
4
Caucasian
7.7
4
Caucasian
7.77
4
Caucasian
8

5
SW-Asian
0.94
5
SW-Asian
0.98
5
SW-Asian
2.24
5
SW-Asian
2.3
5
SW-Asian
0.95

6
W-African
0.07
6
American
0.26
6
S-Indian
0.43
6
Papuan
0.54
6
American
0.55

7
E-African
0.05
7
E-African
0.22
7
Papuan
0.11
7
American
0.24
7
Papuan
0.13




8
Papuan
0.07
8
Pygmy
0.08
8
E-African
0.13
8
Beringian
0.08







9
E-African
0.02



9
S-Indian
0.07

Single Population Sharing:










10
E-African
0.01

















#
Population (source)
Distance
#
Population (source)
Distance
#
Population (source)
Distance
#
Population (source)
Distance
#
Population (source)
Distance

1
utahn-white (1000genomes)
4.26
1
utahn-white (1000genomes)
4.24
1
utahn-white (1000genomes)
4.08
1
utahn-white (1000genomes)
3.93
1
utahn-white (1000genomes)
3.3

2
n-european (xing)
5.01
2
n-european (xing)
4.34
2
n-european (xing)
5.37
2
n-european (xing)
4.47
2
n-european (xing)
3.52

3
utahn-white (hapmap)
5.22
3
utahn-white (hapmap)
4.99
3
utahn-white (hapmap)
5.52
3
utahn-white (hapmap)
4.88
3
utahn-white (hapmap)
3.92

4
british (1000genomes)
5.99
4
british (1000genomes)
6.19
4
british (1000genomes)
5.66
4
british (1000genomes)
5.72
4
british (1000genomes)
5.24

5
french (hgdp)
8.22
5
french (hgdp)
8.15
5
french (hgdp)
6.89
5
french (hgdp)
7.92
5
orcadian (hgdp)
7.37

6
orcadian (hgdp)
8.22
6
hungarian (behar)
8.34
6
orcadian (hgdp)
8.17
6
orcadian (hgdp)
7.99
6
french (hgdp)
8.86

7
hungarian (behar)
9.02
7
orcadian (hgdp)
8.52
7
hungarian (behar)
9.91
7
hungarian (behar)
9.12
7
hungarian (behar)
9

8
slovenian (xing)
10.44
8
slovenian (xing)
9.69
8
slovenian (xing)
11.38
8
slovenian (xing)
10.46
8
slovenian (xing)
10.19

9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
16.44
9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
15.85
9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
17.61
9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
16.46
9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
15.74

10
spaniard (behar)
20.46
10
belorussian (behar)
20.1
10
spaniard (behar)
19.03
10
spaniard (behar)
20.07
10
belorussian (behar)
19.77

11
belorussian (behar)
20.72
11
spaniard (behar)
20.44
11
spaniard (1000genomes)
20.02
11
belorussian (behar)
20.67
11
mordovian (yunusbayev)
21.08

12
romanian-a (behar)
20.87
12
romanian-a (behar)
20.64
12
romanian-a (behar)
21.09
12
spaniard (1000genomes)
21.05
12
spaniard (behar)
21.17

13
spaniard (1000genomes)
21.52
13
mordovian (yunusbayev)
21.47
13
belorussian (behar)
21.85
13
romanian-a (behar)
21.08
13
romanian-a (behar)
21.68

14
mordovian (yunusbayev)
21.76
14
spaniard (1000genomes)
21.5
14
italian (hgdp)
22.37
14
mordovian (yunusbayev)
21.83
14
russian (behar)
22.17

15
russian (behar)
23.02
15
russian (behar)
22.35
15
mordovian (yunusbayev)
22.94
15
russian (behar)
23.03
15
spaniard (1000genomes)
22.18

16
italian (hgdp)
23.12
16
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
22.91
16
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
23.45
16
italian (hgdp)
23.06
16
russian (hgdp)
23.33

17
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
23.2
17
italian (hgdp)
22.95
17
russian (behar)
24.2
17
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
23.43
17
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
23.98

18
russian (hgdp)
24.18
18
russian (hgdp)
23.83
18
russian (hgdp)
25.2
18
russian (hgdp)
24.08
18
italian (hgdp)
24.05

19
lithuanian (behar)
26.18
19
lithuanian (behar)
25.71
19
lithuanian (behar)
27.22
19
lithuanian (behar)
26.09
19
lithuanian (behar)
25.09

20
chuvash (behar)
28.45
20
chuvash (behar)
28.53
20
spain-basc (henn2012)
27.4
20
chuvash (behar)
28.45
20
chuvash (behar)
28.25



Americans predicted to be British by most calculators (next most common is German/Dutch). I'll have to check the first page to figure out what Utahn means.

----------


## LeBrok

> Americans predicted to be British by most calculators (next most common is German/Dutch). I'll have to check the first page to figure out what Utahn means.


 Thanks for posting, and welcome to Eupedia. Is your parents ancestry from specific place or a country in Europe, or mixed ethnicities?

----------


## I1a3_Young

> Thanks for posting, and welcome to Eupedia. Is your parents ancestry from specific place or a country in Europe, or mixed ethnicities?


Thank you for the welcome!

My mother's tree is "early Americans of mainly British origin that came through the Carolinas and Virginias." My father's is half the same as my mother, a quarter of "recent immigrant (Oslo, Cornwall, London), a quarter old New England Plymouth type families.

By looking at BritainsDNA projects and other calculators, we closely match English and Scottish people today. The mix of our (fewer) German immigrants still kept a balance in the proportion to match the West Euro component of modern English/Scottish.

Apparently "Utahn_White" is a control group of white Americans living in Utah for the 1,000 genomes project (most likely old Mormon groups who migrated out there and were composed mostly of old American British families). No wonder they are a match :Laughing:

----------


## MsJ

Trying to get to the bottom of the West Asian/Indian ancestry that keeps popping up. 
*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

92.1%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
7.9%
yemenese (behar)
@ 
1.37

2

91.6%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.4%
iraqi-arab (harappa)
@ 
1.38

3

91.9%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.1%
jordanian (behar)
@ 
1.44

4

91.8%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.2%
syrian (behar)
@ 
1.46

5

91.8%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.2%
palestinian (harappa)
@ 
1.49

6

80.3%
orcadian (hgdp)
+ 
19.7%
ashkenazi (harappa)
@ 
1.6

7

91.7%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.3%
lebanese (behar)
@ 
1.62

8

92%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8%
egyptian (behar)
@ 
1.66

9

92.1%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
7.9%
lebanese-muslim (haber)
@ 
1.74

10

88.2%
orcadian (hgdp)
+ 
11.8%
druze (hgdp)
@ 
1.74

11

89.6%
british (1000genomes)
+ 
10.4%
syrian (behar)
@ 
1.75

12

91.8%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
8.2%
egypt (henn2012)
@ 
1.75

13

81.6%
orcadian (hgdp)
+ 
18.4%
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
@ 
1.77

14

87.9%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+ 
12.1%
morocco-jew (behar)
@ 
1.81

15

92.7%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
7.3%
samaritian (behar)
@ 
1.85

16

93.4%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
6.6%
yemen-jew (behar)
@ 
1.85

17

92.6%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
7.4%
iraq-jew (behar)
@ 
1.87

18

92.6%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+ 
7.4%
iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
@ 
1.88

19

89.8%
british (1000genomes)
+ 
10.2%
jordanian (behar)
@ 
1.88

20

87.5%
orcadian (hgdp)
+ 
12.5%
lebanese-christian (haber)
@ 
1.88

----------


## LeBrok

> Trying to get to the bottom of the West Asian/Indian ancestry that keeps popping up.


You look typical NW European. Your SW-Asian is normal and comes from EEF first farmers whose ancestors came from Anatolia and Levant to Europe bringing it with them. 1% of South Indian is again normal for all Europeans. Paleolithic hunter gatherers had it, Iranian Neolithic had it, central asian/siberian people had it. Looks like a conglomeration of many sources leftovers.

----------


## Dibran

> Thanks for posting, and welcome to Eupedia. Is your parents ancestry from specific place or a country in Europe, or mixed ethnicities?



Do you plan on posting an update with the added albanian results? out of curiosity I want to see how much its shifted compared to just me and my father.

----------


## LeBrok

> Do you plan on posting an update with the added albanian results? out of curiosity I want to see how much its shifted compared to just me and my father.


Thanks for reminder. Got very busy recently. 
Just finished.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Finland
4
1
4
2
72
0
5
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

russian
behar
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

belorussian
behar
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

ukranian
yunusbayev
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

slovenian
xing
1
6
15
51
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
3
0
0
0
0

hungarian
behar
0
7
15
49
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
3
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
2
0
0
23
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
48
11
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
18
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Greek, mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazy
?
1
5
34
19
0
0
1
0
0
0
24
14
0
1
0
0

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## Dibran

> Thanks for reminder. Got very busy recently. 
> Just finished.
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> ...



Awesome! Thank you kindly.

----------


## Stuvanè

My Harappa results:

Mediterranean 29.75
NE-Euro 28.85
Caucasian 26
SW-Asian 8.93
Baloch 5.51
Siberian 0.35
SE-Asian 0.26
W-African 0.2
Beringian 0.13

----------


## LeBrok

> My Harappa results:
> 
> Mediterranean 29.75
> NE-Euro 28.85
> Caucasian 26
> SW-Asian 8.93
> Baloch 5.51
> Siberian 0.35
> SE-Asian 0.26
> ...


 You look like someone from central Italy.

----------


## Stuvanè

> You look like someone from central Italy.


Very close: eastern Emilia/Romagna

----------


## LeBrok

> Awesome! Thank you kindly.


 When compared to average Albanian, you and your father are shifted a tiny bit towards Greece, and a tiny bit towards Sardinia (the first european farmer). Both could be due to the region of Albania you are coming from. Otherwise, you are in a range of general Albanian numbers.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> When compared to average Albanian, you and your father are shifted a tiny bit towards Greece, and a tiny bit towards Sardinia (the first european farmer). Both could be due to the region of Albania you are coming from. Otherwise, you are in a range of general Albanian numbers.


He's from north-eastern Albania and from a village near my mothers so I was expecting him to be more northern shifted like me and other Ghegs, but perhaps it's due to isolation of the Neolithic farmers, I would like to test my mothers side and see if they have a similar admix due to them being from a nearby village

----------


## Kelmendasi

> I think Greeks, let's say in Bronze Age, turned towards Armenian Bronze like, away from Neolithic. This shows in sharply rising Caucasian and falling Med. Ghegs look most Neolithic to me of all the Balkans. They should plot closest to Sardinians of all the Balkans. Well, unless the three Ghegs we have are not representative?


Ghegs plot near Tuscans and sometimes north Italians and Bulgarians. Tosks seem to plot more south near with Greeks and Sardinians

----------


## LeBrok

> He's from north-eastern Albania and from a village near my mothers so I was expecting him to be more northern shifted like me and other Ghegs, but perhaps it's due to isolation of the Neolithic farmers, I would like to test my mothers side and see if they have a similar admix due to them being from a nearby village


Yes, when we compare you to to Dibran, he is shifted more to Sardinia than you, a tiny bit. However even you, when compared to other Albanians are shifted this way too.

Albania
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Dibran's father, Albania, Gheg
0.00
4.61
30.35
26.52
0.05
0.41
0.00
0.10
0.00
0.24
29.62
8.05
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00

2
Dibran, Albania, Gheg
0.00
6.43
29.80
24.86
0.00
0.36
0.00
0.29
0.44
0.45
29.29
7.82
0.27
0.00
0.00
0.00

3
Trojet
 6.41
 28.66
 27.72






 26.01
 10.12





4
A486577

 6.09
 29.84
 27.60






 26.47
 8.79





5
M145528
 1.39
 5.86
 27.62
 29.58






 28.48
 6.79





6
M124104

 6.83
 26.39
 28.04


 1.31



 27.10
 9.59





7
A906072

 6.71
 25.15
 33.05






 25.72
 8.11





8
M205340

 8.25
 27.55
 28.00






 26.32
 8.28





9
M549149, Montenegro
 8.05
 24.34
 32.54






 24.41
 9.18





10
 Kelmendasi, Gheg
 4.99
 29.02
 28.94






 28.68
 7.95





11
A566427

 4.68
 26.37
 32.88






 28.44
 7.14





12
A229969

 7.05
 26.66
 28.59






 30.39
 6.11





13
M507707

 6.11
 29.53
 27.90






 26.73
 8.65





14
M499066

 7.31
 27.56
 27.76

 1.10




 29.17
 6.90





15
M697668

 7.03
 31.85
 30.35






 23.99
 5.96





16
A871425

 6.54
 29.34
 27.39






 26.18
 9.73





17
A906637

 6.32
 30.69
 25.17






 27.84
 8.85





18
A889964

 7.10
 27.30
 29.31






 28.31
 6.80
























Albania
18
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

----------


## Kelmendasi

^^
Interesting. Maybe it's because my maternal side is from a really nearby village to his. My fathers side on the other hand should be the one that shifts me north

----------


## Dibran

> When compared to average Albanian, you and your father are shifted a tiny bit towards Greece, and a tiny bit towards Sardinia (the first european farmer). Both could be due to the region of Albania you are coming from. Otherwise, you are in a range of general Albanian numbers.



Interesting. I'm doing a fullgenomes test right now. Also after speaking to a Albanian from Mirdita(where we claim descent), the oral history says the Pershpalaj(assuming it was our paternal line and not a woman who married into our line) were descended from A Condottieri from the Apennines named Paul. He was supposedly hired by the King of Albania in the 1400s and brought to Albania to fight the Ottomans. 

If this is true, could it explain the shift towards Sardinia and Greece? 550 years being more than enough time to autosomally become predominantly Albanian. It would explain my fathers and my atypical "Italian marker" in the K36. Perhaps it was more elevated in medieval Italy, and due to isolation in the Albanian Alps, retained the higher marker?

Just spit balling here. Could be completely wrong. It would explain our shift towards Tuscans, more than common for Albanian. Especially with 0 Italian ancestry on record. 

We also form our own cluster next to Albanians(me and my father) on the PCA plot. LukaszM suggesting possible Proto-Albanian connection. I don't see how though(being R1a). 

I am testing with full genomes right now. I'm sure it will bring this matter to light, once the Yelite is ready. 

Interestingly(from speaking with Kelmendasi) there is a Tuscan R1a-Z93 individual in Italy. Perhaps we belong to this clade? As I do not score really any Slavic admixture. Other than perhaps Bulgarians. Which is still far off. 

Perhaps Thracians or Scythians maybe sarmatians? Idk.

----------


## Dibran

> ^^
> Interesting. Maybe it's because my maternal side is from a really nearby village to his. My fathers side on the other hand should be the one that shifts me north



It could be explained by your haplogroup maybe? Being linked to Phoenicians who settled in Greece and Sardinia. Especially being its uncommon among Albanians. Maybe that's why you shift with me and my father? 

Maybe something about Okshtun peoples is a little different autosomally. Perhaps due to isolation.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> Interesting. I'm doing a fullgenomes test right now. Also after speaking to a Albanian from Mirdita(where we claim descent), the oral history says the Pershpalaj(assuming it was our paternal line and not a woman who married into our line) were descended from A Condottieri from the Apennines named Paul. He was supposedly hired by the King of Albania in the 1400s and brought to Albania to fight the Ottomans. 
> 
> If this is true, could it explain the shift towards Sardinia and Greece? 550 years being more than enough time to autosomally become predominantly Albanian. It would explain my fathers and my atypical "Italian marker" in the K36. Perhaps it was more elevated in medieval Italy, and due to isolation in the Albanian Alps, retained the higher marker?
> 
> Just spit balling here. Could be completely wrong. It would explain our shift towards Tuscans, more than common for Albanian. Especially with 0 Italian ancestry on record. 
> 
> We also form our own cluster next to Albanians(me and my father) on the PCA plot. LukaszM suggesting possible Proto-Albanian connection. I don't see how though(being R1a). 
> 
> I am testing with full genomes right now. I'm sure it will bring this matter to light, once the Yelite is ready. 
> ...


If you are Z93 which I think you are, then your paternal ancestor most likely was a Thracian or a Scythian but I would say Thracian.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> It could be explained by your haplogroup maybe? Being linked to Phoenicians who settled in Greece and Sardinia. Especially being its uncommon among Albanians. Maybe that's why you shift with me and my father? 
> 
> Maybe something about Okshtun peoples is a little different autosomally. Perhaps due to isolation.


It's possible, but I doubt it as I don't seem to have much or any Levantine admix meaning that my paternal ancestor's admix got diluted quick when they settled in the Balkans. I think it's due to the region as my mothers side is from a nearby village

----------


## Kelmendasi

People from Dibra e vogel perhaps are Ghegs that didn't get any further admix from their neighbors due to isolation

----------


## Dibran

> People from Dibra e vogel perhaps are Ghegs that didn't get any further admix from their neighbors due to isolation



A lot of Diber Vogel is not that rugged compared to Malesia Madhe. Wouldn't this then be more prevalent in Malesia then? 

As I understand it, Okshtuni Vogel(our area) Moreso than Okshtuni madhe is very isolated. Okshtuni Madhe is as well. However Vogel has no roads and is very cut off. To this day most of the houses up there are mostly our distant relatives.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> A lot of Diber Vogel is not that rugged compared to Malesia Madhe. Wouldn't this then be more prevalent in Malesia then? 
> 
> As I understand it, Okshtuni Vogel(our area) Moreso than Okshtuni madhe is very isolated. Okshtuni Madhe is as well. However Vogel has no roads and is very cut off. To this day most of the houses up there are mostly our distant relatives.


Yes but Malsors took Slavic or Vlach brides from time to time unlike Dibrans

----------


## Dibran

> Yes but Malsors took Slavic or Vlach brides from time to time unlike Dibrans


True. But only certain areas of Diber Vogel are isolated. Peshkopi, Maqellara Zerqan are traveled well. By even Macedonians and Bulgarians and Greeks. 

My father said according to stories that Okshtun Vogel wasn't that settled until our ancestors showed up. Very unpopulated when they arrived. 

This could explain the shift. I would think 300 years is enough to do that.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> True. But only certain areas of Diber Vogel are isolated. Peshkopi, Maqellara Zerqan are traveled well. By even Macedonians and Bulgarians and Greeks. 
> 
> My father said according to stories that Okshtun Vogel wasn't that settled until our ancestors showed up. Very unpopulated when they arrived. 
> 
> This could explain the shift. I would think 300 years is enough to do that.


I would like to see my maternal sides autosomal so that I can see if it's a Dibran thing, Dibrans seem to be more neolithic shifted for example on ancient origins Trojet get 60% Neolithic you get 62% and I although I am half Dibran I get 60% Neolithic

----------


## Dibran

> I would like to see my maternal sides autosomal so that I can see if it's a Dibran thing, Dibrans seem to be more neolithic shifted for example on ancient origins Trojet get 60% Neolithic you get 62% and I although I am half Dibran I get 60% Neolithic



Well Lika/Likaj are from Okshtun. Assuming that, your moms side would fall within our range. If it's unique to Okshtun and not something with me and my father. 

To see if it's a Dibran thing, we need to get dibran from Peshkopi and other areas outside Okshtuni to test.

----------


## Kelmendasi

^^
My mothers maiden name shows that they live/lived in a mountainous and isolated area, Mali(Mountain in English)

----------


## Dibran

> ^^
> My mothers maiden name shows that they live/lived in a mountainous and isolated area, Mali(Mountain in English)



Could be originated from Okshtun like us.

----------


## Kelmendasi

> Could be originated from Okshtun like us.


Will have to test their Ydna to know, but I doubt it as they say that they have been in Borove for forever lol, although I have a suspicion that they could be Krasniqi

----------


## Kelmendasi

They could also be Trieshi

----------


## LeBrok

> Interesting. I'm doing a fullgenomes test right now. Also after speaking to a Albanian from Mirdita(where we claim descent), the oral history says the Pershpalaj(assuming it was our paternal line and not a woman who married into our line) were descended from A Condottieri from the Apennines named Paul. He was supposedly hired by the King of Albania in the 1400s and brought to Albania to fight the Ottomans. 
> 
> If this is true, could it explain the shift towards Sardinia and Greece? 550 years being more than enough time to autosomally become predominantly Albanian. It would explain my fathers and my atypical "Italian marker" in the K36. Perhaps it was more elevated in medieval Italy, and due to isolation in the Albanian Alps, retained the higher marker?
> 
> Just spit balling here. Could be completely wrong. It would explain our shift towards Tuscans, more than common for Albanian. Especially with 0 Italian ancestry on record. 
> 
> We also form our own cluster next to Albanians(me and my father) on the PCA plot. LukaszM suggesting possible Proto-Albanian connection. I don't see how though(being R1a). 
> 
> I am testing with full genomes right now. I'm sure it will bring this matter to light, once the Yelite is ready. 
> ...


I wouldn't read too much into your family history. I think the shift to Sardinia, has no relation to Sardinia itself or Italy. I think it comes from original population of Albania, the Neolithic European Farmers (Sardinian like, high Med and low Baloch). You, Albanians, have more of their admixture than Greeks or Macedonia or Bosnia, that's all. The pull to Greece, might not have anything to do with Greece either. This could easily come from Bronze Age migration from Anatolia, the elevated level of Caucasian Admixture. All Balkans have it, but Greeks the most.

And of course, Kelmendasi shift towards NE Euro, is associated with more IE, and perhaps some additional Slavic migrations. Again, most likely very ancient stuff.

----------


## Dibran

> I wouldn't read too much into your family history. I think the shift to Sardinia, has no relation to Sardinia itself or Italy. I think it comes from original population of Albania, the Neolithic European Farmers (Sardinian like, high Med and low Baloch). You, Albanians, have more of their admixture than Greeks or Macedonia or Bosnia, that's all. The pull to Greece, might not have anything to do with Greece either. This could easily come from Bronze Age migration from Anatolia, the elevated level of Caucasian Admixture. All Balkans have it, but Greeks the most.
> 
> And of course, Kelmendasi shift towards NE Euro, is associated with more IE, and perhaps some additional Slavic migrations. Again, most likely very ancient stuff.


Very interesting! Did not think of that. I figured being Balkan peoples moved around a lot that it was just unknown assimilations intermixed.

----------


## LeBrok

> Very interesting! Did not think of that. I figured being Balkan peoples moved around a lot that it was just unknown assimilations intermixed.


 Actually, it doesn't look like Albanians in Albania moved a lot, or rather mixed a lot. At least since dark ages. Your DNA fits perfectly between Greeks and Balkan Slavic Nations. You are very very close to Greek Mainland genome, and not too far away from Slavic Macedonia. Greek Mainlanders are much closer genetically to Albanians than to Greek Islander.

----------


## Dibran

> Actually, it doesn't look like Albanians in Albania moved a lot, or rather mixed a lot. At least since dark ages. Your DNA fits perfectly between Greeks and Balkan Slavic Nations. You are very very close to Greek Mainland genome, and not too far away from Slavic Macedonia. Greek Mainlanders are much closer genetically to Albanians than to Greek Islander.


Interesting. Could the similarities with Greeks be due to Arvanite settlers in Greece over time?

Or is this correlation more a product of antiquitous migration patterns of European Neolithic Farmers? 

I presume the similarity with Macedonia is due to western Macedonian Albanians?

----------


## Kelmendasi

> Actually, it doesn't look like Albanians in Albania moved a lot, or rather mixed a lot. At least since dark ages. Your DNA fits perfectly between Greeks and Balkan Slavic Nations. You are very very close to Greek Mainland genome, and not too far away from Slavic Macedonia. Greek Mainlanders are much closer genetically to Albanians than to Greek Islander.


Yh, Albanians are the most homogeneous European ethnic group in terms of IBD sharing and autosomal

----------


## LeBrok

Do you guys care to split samples into Gheg and Tosk to see how they plot and if there is any difference?

----------


## Dibran

> Do you guys care to split samples into Gheg and Tosk to see how they plot and if there is any difference?


I don't mind. Not sure how we can tell though. Maybe some of the names for the kit appear to be Southern. But that's not always the case.

----------


## LeBrok

> I don't mind. Not sure how we can tell though. Maybe some of the names for the kit appear to be Southern. But that's not always the case.


Mention only the samples of which you are sure. Thanks.

----------


## LeBrok

Here is what I have so far. I added Cretans, and they look like Greeks from East Islands. I also added Bulgarians and Romanians and they look almost exactly the same, which is a bit of surprise having very different languages. One more addition are Hungarians, who plot closer to Slovenians, and stand out from Romanians and Bulgarians.
Now we need all the former Yugoslav nations, and Balkans are complete. It would be nice to get samples from Moldova too.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Finland
4
1
4
2
72
0
5
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

russian
behar
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

belorussian
behar
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

ukranian
yunusbayev
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

slovenian
xing
1
6
15
51
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
3
0
0
0
0

Austrians
1
0
6
17
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
28
4
0
0
0
0

Hungarian
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romanians
4
0
8
23
34
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
7
0
0
0
0

Bulgarians
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
18
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Greek, mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Cretans
3
0
9
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunesia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## Icarian Porphyrogene

Thank you for your reply, it's very interesting although I doubt about the validity of the results by clustering together all the Aegean Islands (eastern) as in most cases they have totally different historical and anthropological backgrounds

----------


## Pratt

I made a PCA based on that spreadsheet.

----------


## Pratt

HarappaWorld lacks North-Western component, but overall it's a good.

----------


## LeBrok

> Thank you for your reply, it's very interesting although I doubt about the validity of the results by clustering together all the Aegean Islands (eastern) as in most cases they have totally different historical and anthropological backgrounds


This is what I have for Greek Islanders. I'll be glad if you know gedmatch kit numbers of more Greek Islanders, or you can send me yours. :)


There are 3 groups here, with Total line for each group. All Greek Islanders look similar, except Cyprus, which is shifted towards Near East.

Greek, Islands, East
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
 Chios

 8.96
 38.99
 13.77
 0.34
 0.29

 0.03

 0.54
 23.55
 13.86



 0.21

2
Dedocanese

 9.21
 43.68
 11.16


 0.67
 0.28
 0.78
 0.51
 19.72
 13.67

 0.32



3
Dedocanese

 9.42
 41.22
 12.77

 0.28

 0.35


 21.21
 14.58



 0.18

4
Andros

 8.72
 32.35
 15.68

 0.61
 1.57
 0.98
 0.37

 25.74
 13.96
 0.03




5
Andros

 9.49
 32.61
 16.25

 0.43
 1.17
 0.04
 0.64
 0.19
 24.89
 13.15
 0.23
 0.91






















Greek, Islands, East
5
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0




















Cretans
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
M720376

 7.80
 37.96
 14.90


 0.52
 0.46
 0.21
 0.21
 20.79
 16.31

 0.46
 0.36


2
M360120

 8.87
 39.94
 13.39


 1.37
 0.11


 21.85
 13.70

 0.06
 0.70


3
M838603

 9.02
 38.82
 16.71
 0.17
 0.97

 0.41
 0.20

 20.19
 13.07

 0.18

 0.18

4


















5





































Cretans
3
0
9
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0




















Cyprus
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Cyprus
 2.27
 10.32
 44.15
 3.95
 1.53


 0.36


 19.67
 17.11

 0.33
 0.31


2
Cyprus

 7.67
 43.01
 8.00
 0.77


 0.08
 0.40

 21.30
 18.22

 0.55



3
Cyprus
 0.76
 10.49
 42.94
 8.24
 0.09
 0.82

 0.03


 19.50
 16.74

 0.05

 0.33

4
Cyprus
 1.15
 10.28
 43.97
 4.98
 0.06
 0.31
 0.68
 0.33


 20.88
 16.64
 0.02
 0.29
 0.32
 0.07




















Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

> I made a PCA based on that spreadsheet.


This is great, thanks for doing it, Pratt.

----------


## LeBrok

Here we go again. Updated chart. Added Croatian and Tosk Albanian. Also Armenia and Georgia. Interestingly they look in 80% like CHG/Iranian Neolithic, with surprisingly low East Euro. I wonder where they got their Med from and when?

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Finland
4
1
4
2
72
0
5
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

Russia
behar
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

Belorussia
behar
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

Ukraine
yunusbayev
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Slovenia
xing
1
6
15
51
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
3
0
0
0
0

Croatia
1
1
9
14
48
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Austria
1
0
6
17
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
28
4
0
0
0
0

Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0

Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, East Islands
7
0
9
38
14
0
0
1
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0

Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0

Palestine
46
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2

----------


## noman

Harappa World gives so strange results. I am Pakistani Kashmiri, but it gave me 41% Baloch. I don't know why.

----------


## LeBrok

Here is a comparison of Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Armenia with today's Armenia and Georgia. They really look way different. 

M926386
I1631

M691697
RISE407

Modern


Modern


Armenian Chalcolithic
Armenia LBA


Armenian

Georgian


Run time
 9.37

Run time
3.92

Run time


Run time


S-Indian
 0.27

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
1

S-Indian
0

Baloch
 17.64

Baloch
28.22

Baloch
20

Baloch
21

Caucasian
 41.35

Caucasian
30.75

Caucasian
52

Caucasian
58

NE-Euro
 20.25

NE-Euro
24.77

NE-Euro
3

NE-Euro
7

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
1

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
 0.55

American
1.54

American

American

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
 11.12

Mediterranean
6.98

Mediterranean
10

Mediterranean
5

SW-Asian
 8.81

SW-Asian
6.38

SW-Asian
13

SW-Asian
6

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

W-African
1.36

W-African

W-African



BA has way more NE Euro and lowered Caucasian admixture. I bet this is from BA/Chalcolithic invasion from Steppe. No way so much of NE Euro came from other source. The surprise is that BA Armenian left Armenia, evaporated.

Below are the sources of BA and Modern Armenians and Georgians. Caucasian and Baloch, gifts from Caucasian Hunter Gatherer. Mediterranean and SW Asian admixtures, from Neolithic Anatolia. And source for NE Euro. All sources local or very close by.

M603839


M54279
I0746

M766878
I0440

Kotias CHG
8 KYA

Anatolian EF

Poltavka Yamnaya
4.7 kya

Run time
13.98

Run time
10.2

Run time
10.78

S-Indian
0.62

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
36.63

Baloch
-

Baloch
30.06

Caucasian
54.15

Caucasian
35.9

Caucasian
7.57

NE-Euro
3.84

NE-Euro
3.91

NE-Euro
59.14

SE-Asian
0.59

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.77

Siberian
-

Siberian
0.99

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.15

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
2.21

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
46.12

Mediterranean
-

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
14.03

SW-Asian
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.25

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
3.01

W-African
-

W-African
-

----------


## LeBrok

> Harappa World gives so strange results. I am Pakistani Kashmiri, but it gave me 41% Baloch. I don't know why.


 Like it should be. Baloch is ancient central Asian admixture. The center of it is in Iran and Pakistan these days, and probably always has been. Check post #1 of this thread for more info.

----------


## Seanp

> Here we go again. Updated chart. Added Croatian and Tosk Albanian. Also Armenia and Georgia. Interestingly they look in 80% like CHG/Iranian Neolithic, with surprisingly low East Euro. I wonder where they got their Med from and when?
> 
> Europeans
> # of samples
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> ...


Can you add these? 


Bosniak:

A903976 

Pontian Greek:

T002825 
M844814
T508879

Ionian Islander (Greek)

A369427 
M932252 

Kytheria Islander (Greek)

T989434 
T605151 
T013566
T335961 

Chios Islander (Greek)

A242426 
A494945 
A680256 
M297994 
A286177 
M485001 
M168143 
A518543 









Slovenian:

M612701 

North Italian (Aosta)

Z231483 
Z407200
Z394662
Z479660
Z017901 
Z333116
Z136630
Z062958
Z835914
Z481541
Z269797

South Italian (Calabria)

M360226 
M102854
M900442
M473529 
A695965 
A552689 
A675077 
A176776
M211419

Italy, Campania:

A174213 
A809174 
A705648 
A977888 
M148245 
A640566 
A076721

Maltese:

M882107 
A625797 
M190851
T128716 
T766795 
T522489 
A394177 
M006275 


Lebanese:

M082752
A348010
A386085
M201211
M978009
M752647
T286199
M952740
A975400

Samaritan:

T027079
T631829
T610600

Iranian:

A103188 
M346537
A969963
M508781
M470761
T524191
A184337
A114871

Uyghur (Western China)

T115458
M361178

Portuguese: 

A733541 
T410362
T667335 
M673849
T953680
A056309 
M833688
M398834
T066340
T698974

Basque:

T442422 
T602958
T621170

----------


## Angela

> Can you add these? 
> 
> 
> Bosniak:
> 
> A903976 
> 
> Pontian Greek:
> 
> ...


How do we know that these are accurately attributed to these areas? We're supposed to go on faith here?

----------


## Seanp

> How do we that these are accurately attributed to these areas? We're supposed to go on faith here?


These are collected by Ancestry DNA, 23andme database with reported ancestry including family tree. Some were sent by other users including genealogists.
There's no 100% Italian or Irish, we know that if we go back to thousands of years our ancestry came from different directions but these results are representative for the region their ancestors came from.

----------


## davef

Can I see the Basque results? :)

----------


## Angela

> These are collected by Ancestry DNA, 23andme database with reported ancestry including family tree. Some were sent by other users including genealogists.
> There's no 100% Italian or Irish, we know that if we go back to thousands of years our ancestry came from different directions but these results are representative for the region their ancestors came from.


You miss the point. These are gedmatch kit numbers. Gedmatch doesn't check that you are who you say you are.

Theoretically, I could be a Spaniard from Barcelona and run my raw data through gedmatch and then go on some internet site and claim I'm Basque while giving out my kit number. Or maybe I come from Basque country but have a non-Basque grandmother, but I don't realize it's relevant. 

Let's take another example. How about someone has been given 20 sets of results by people purporting to be of a certain ancestry, but cherry picks and includes only 10 for some point being made? See the problem?

This is why you would prefer representative sampling by academics. It's also why anything you see by amateurs on the internet should be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. Honestly, I think everyone would benefit from spending some time in the fraud division of some court.

----------


## Seanp

> You miss the point. These are gedmatch kit numbers. Gedmatch doesn't check that you are who you say you are.
> 
> Theoretically, I could be a Spaniard from Barcelona and run my raw data through gedmatch and then go on some internet site and claim I'm Basque while giving out my kit number. Or maybe I come from Basque country but have a non-Basque grandmother, but I don't realize it's relevant. 
> 
> Let's take another example. How about someone has been given 20 sets of results by people purporting to be of a certain ancestry, but cherry picks and includes only 10 for some point being made? See the problem?
> 
> This is why you would prefer representative sampling by academics. It's also why anything you see by amateurs on the internet should be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. Honestly, I think everyone would benefit from spending some time in the fraud division of some court.


I see your point and that's true someone can fake his ethnicity for some reason, but I checked these results and if someone let's say claims to be Irish but clusters with Saudi Arabians then he obviously lies about his ancestry or been adopted. DNA doesn't lie there are different patterns for each regions and you can see a person from Veneto will get other Venetian or North Italian matches on Gedmatch and so. Even if he has let's say 1/32 other ancestry it won't make him genetically different from the rest of Venetians. 

Let's see my point: The Basque result I posted

Gedmatch kit: T442422

It's very unlikely this person lies about his ancestry or just doesn't know where his ancestors came from. 

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
North_Atlantic
54.02

2
West_Med
43.12

3
Red_Sea
1.47

4
South_Asian
0.85

5
Sub-Saharan
0.47

6
Northeast_African
0.07



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
French_Basque
9.1

2
Spanish_Aragon
19.64

3
Southwest_French
20.88

4
Spanish_Cantabria
21.28

5
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
22.15

6
Spanish_Andalucia
23.25

7
Spanish_Valencia
24.14

8
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
24.44

9
Spanish_Murcia
24.76

10
Spanish_Cataluna
24.78

11
Spanish_Extremadura
25.13

12
Spanish_Galicia
25.45

13
Portuguese
26.4

14
French
29.86

15
North_Italian
32.4

16
Southwest_English
32.42

17
South_Dutch
33.66

18
Sardinian
34

19
Southeast_English
34.11

20
West_German
35.06



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

96.1%
 French_Basque
 + 
3.9%
 Sardinian
 @ 
9

2

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Abhkasian
 @ 
9.1

3

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Adygei
 @ 
9.1

4

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Afghan_Pashtun
 @ 
9.1

5

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Afghan_Tadjik
 @ 
9.1

6

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Afghan_Turkmen
 @ 
9.1

7

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Aghan_Hazara
 @ 
9.1

8

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Algerian
 @ 
9.1

9

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Algerian_Jewish
 @ 
9.1

10

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Altaian
 @ 
9.1

11

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Armenian
 @ 
9.1

12

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Ashkenazi
 @ 
9.1

13

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Assyrian
 @ 
9.1

14

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Austrian
 @ 
9.1

15

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Austroasiatic_Ho
 @ 
9.1

16

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Azeri
 @ 
9.1

17

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Balkar
 @ 
9.1

18

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Balochi
 @ 
9.1

19

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Bangladeshi
 @ 
9.1

20

100%
 French_Basque
 + 
0%
 Bantu_N.E.
 @ 
9.1




Other example is a Maltese M882107 again it's very unlikely this person has some outside influences and even if he has it doesn't make him different from the rest of his countrymen. Genealogists occasionally can screw up different DNA results too but it's usually a statistical noise and won't change the genetic of the reference population drastically. 

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
34.73

2
European_Early_Farmers
24.95

3
Near_East
12.29

4
European_Hunters_Gatherers
10.41

5
North_African
8.11

6
South_Central_Asian
4.01

7
Ancestral_Altaic
1.62

8
Melano_Polynesian
1.28




Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Maltese_ @ 3.044078
2 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 3.185654
3 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 3.535299
4 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.251839
5 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.570505
6 Sicilian_East_ @ 4.832802
7 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.029501
8 French_Jew_ @ 5.283175
9 Italian_Jew_ @ 7.181714
10 Turk_Jew_ @ 7.431051
11 Ashkenazi_ @ 7.596139
12 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 7.654933
13 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.758188
14 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 8.172043
15 Romanian_Jew_ @ 8.212935
16 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 8.991903
17 Cretan_ @ 9.512802
18 Italian_South_ @ 10.034826
19 Greek_Phokaia_ @ 10.924088
20 Greek_Athens_ @ 11.476445

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Maltese_ +50% Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 2.682282


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Piedmont_ +25% Lebanese_ +25% Libyan_Jew_ @ 1.858735




Academic samples by Dodecad provided samples from people of verified Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, but if you look closely you see 2-3 individuals who score as high as 30-40% North European ancestry. These individuals are obviously recently admixed and not fully Jewish, yet Dienekes Pontikos still used these in his "Ashkenazi Jewish" sample

See below

----------


## IronSide

These are my results:

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
SW-Asian
43.76

2
Caucasian
30.15

3
Mediterranean
9.34

4
Baloch
6.34

5
E-African
6.27

6
S-Indian
1.62

7
NE-Euro
0.79

8
Papuan
0.77

9
NE-Asian
0.57

10
Siberian
0.3

11
Beringian
0.08

12
American
0.01



*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
yemen-jew (behar)
10.1

2
yemenese (behar)
13.08

3
egyptian (behar)
13.74

4
bedouin (hgdp)
14.15

5
egypt (henn2012)
14.52

6
palestinian (hgdp)
14.87

7
saudi (behar)
15.02

8
jordanian (behar)
16.97

9
qatari (henn2012)
17.68

10
samaritian (behar)
20.43

11
syrian (behar)
20.83

12
palestinian (harappa)
21.41

13
lebanese (behar)
22.34

14
iraqi-arab (harappa)
24.63

15
lebanese-muslim (haber)
25.81

16
libya (henn2012)
26.4

17
lebanese-christian (haber)
26.51

18
iraq-jew (behar)
27.57

19
lebanese-druze (haber)
28.29

20
iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
29.01

----------


## LeBrok

> These are my results:
> *#*
> *Population (source)*
> *Distance*
> 
> 1
> yemen-jew (behar)
> 10.1
> 
> ...


Name your ethnicity please. Was it the same for last 2 generations?

----------


## IronSide

> Name your ethnicity please. Was it the same for last 2 generations?


Sure, I should be Saudi Arabian for the last 4 generations. When I took the test I hoped that it may shed light on how I got this Y-dna of mine, but I'm now more confused than before.

Sparkey made a map for I2c

frequencyi2c.jpg

I personally invoke the sea peoples  :Grin:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian#Pottery

----------


## Pax Augusta

> South Italian (Calabria)
> 
> M360226 
> M102854
> M900442
> M473529 
> A695965 
> A552689 
> A675077 
> ...



Most of these are American mutts, and some are even not of Italian ancestry, while others are not from Calabria or Campania, but instead they have ancestors from different regions of south Italy. Only a minority are what you claim they are.

----------


## Seanp

> Most of these are American mutts, and some are even not of Italian ancestry, while others are not from Calabria or Campania, but instead they have ancestors from different regions of south Italy. Only a minority are what you claim they are.


How would you define which is Italian or not when they came from a region of a generally heterogeneous history. "American Mutts" Some are still living in Italy while the majority are Italian Born or first generation Italian American. Most second/thrird generation Italian Americans are mixed with Irish, British so they would be significantly more North European genetically than a full South Italian would be, if that was the case.
Calabrian Y-dna study: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/calabria_dna/

"Founded in 2002, this project has been established to study the genetic heritage of Calabria, which has been a crossroads of civilization for almost 3000 years of recorded history. DNA testing, both yDNA for paternal lines and mtDNA for maternal lines, can provide a picture of the deep and recent ethnic background of Calabrians and their descendants. This includes Greek, Italian, Arab, Sephardic Jewish, Norman and Spanish backgrounds, among others."

All these people are native Calabrese or Campanians who happen to have different influences from historical groups like Iberians who ruled South Italy for a short period time and the Byzantines as well.



South Italian author of Calabrian DNA project from Reggio Calabria with verified family tree: http://www.calabriadna.com/family-trees/family-tree/

"In 2002 I found a company called FAMILY TREE DNA, and I tested my own Y-DNA, which I inherited pretty much unchanged from my original Loccisano ancestor 1000s of years ago. I found out that my Loccisano ancestor was not a European line, and infact, he came from around the Caucauses mountains/Middle East region and carried a unique mutation called M406 on his Y-DNA (which I have on my Y-DNA also). As more people from around the world are sampled, we can figure out which Middle Eastern groups carry M406, and will be able to determine which ancient group of people my Loccisano ancestor came from before reaching Calabria. It would be great to get other Calabrians to take a Y-DNA test to find the origins of their father's family and an mtDNA to show the origins of their mother's maternal line."

Gedmatch ID: M102854


*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
41.68

2
Neolithic
25.56

3
Steppe
9.59

4
NearEast
9.15

5
NorthEastEuropean
7.11

6
NorthAfrican
3.75

7
EastAfrican
1.55

8
Subsaharian
0.68

9
Indian
0.61

10
Oceanic
0.3

11
Amerindian
0.03



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Jew (Italian)
4.12

2
Jew (Bulgaria)
4.14

3
Jew (Ashkenazim)
4.61

4
Jew (Turkish_Sephardim)
4.74

5
Jew (Ashkenazi)
4.85

6
Italian (SouthItaly)
5.18

7
Jew (Turkey)
5.37

8
Sicilian (Sicily)
5.4

9
Jew (Sephardim)
5.7

10
Greek (Greece)
6.01

11
Maltese (Malta)
6.24

12
Greek (Athens)
6.25

13
Jew (Algeria)
6.84

14
Jew (Ashkenazi)
7.74

15
Italian (Abruzzo)
7.74

16
Jew (Morocco)
7.86

17
Greek (Macedonia)
8.5

18
Greek (Peloponnes)
9.23

19
Jew (Syria)
9.78

20
Greek (Greece)
9.9



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

60.6%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
39.4%
 Corsican (Corsica)
 @ 
1.39

2

70.8%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
29.2%
 Spanish (Spain)
 @ 
1.5

3

67.2%
 Sicilian (Sicily)
 + 
32.8%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 @ 
1.54

4

68.7%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
31.3%
 Portuguese (Portugal)
 @ 
1.86

5

58%
 Jew (Turkish_Sephardim)
 + 
42%
 Greek (Athens)
 @ 
2.01

6

76.9%
 Sicilian (Sicily)
 + 
23.1%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 @ 
2.09

7

61.4%
 Jew (Italian)
 + 
38.6%
 Greek (Greece)
 @ 
2.09

8

81%
 Sicilian (Sicily)
 + 
19%
 Jew (Iraqi)
 @ 
2.19

9

71.4%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 + 
28.6%
 Spanish (Pais_Vasco)
 @ 
2.26

10

68.2%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
31.8%
 Provencal (Provence)
 @ 
2.28

11

64.8%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
35.2%
 Italian (Bergamo)
 @ 
2.28

12

70.8%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 + 
29.2%
 French (SouthFrance)
 @ 
2.29

13

66.4%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 + 
33.6%
 Spanish (Aragon)
 @ 
2.4

14

70.7%
 Sicilian (Sicily)
 + 
29.3%
 Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon)
 @ 
2.47

15

74%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 + 
26%
 Basque (France)
 @ 
2.5

16

79.4%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
20.6%
 French (SouthFrance)
 @ 
2.51

17

53.8%
 Greek (Greece)
 + 
46.2%
 Jew (Algeria)
 @ 
2.54

18

74.2%
 Cypriot (Cyprus)
 + 
25.8%
 French (France)
 @ 
2.54

19

63%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 + 
37%
 Spanish (Andalucia)
 @ 
2.56

20

78.6%
 Italian (SouthItaly)
 + 
21.4%
 Druze (Mount_Carmel)
 @ 
2.58

----------


## Angela

> Sure, I should be Saudi Arabian for the last 4 generations. When I took the test I hoped that it may shed light on how I got this Y-dna of mine, but I'm now more confused than before.
> 
> Sparkey made a map for I2c
> 
> frequencyi2c.jpg
> 
> I personally invoke the sea peoples  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian#Pottery


Very interesting, Ironside. Does this calculator perhaps not have a reference population for Saudis? 

@seanp
Don't play games. Obviously, if someone is really Saudi and says he's Basque, it will be easy to tell it's fraudulent. However, if you're trying to find fine scale substructure within one country, you want to make absolutely certain that at least all four grandparents of that person come from exactly the same spot. Hopefully, you'd want to go even further back into the family tree. If you're talking about Italian-Americans, I know hundreds if not thousands of them, and even the ones who are in their 80s are often "mixed", i.e. half Barese/half Sicilian, half Calabrese/half Neapolitan etc. These are people born here in America. You don't seem to have a grasp of how long ago most Italians arrived in the U.S. and Canada, so long ago that these first generation Italo-Americans sometimes don't even know the precise area from which their ancestors came. People have told me they're from Lazio when upon questioning they're from an area which is now Lazio but used to be Campania. I've had Arbereshe tell me they're Calabrian or Sicilian, people who think they're from Campania because the ship's manifest says that they departed from Napoli. It's a mess.

That's even assuming that I trust the "gatherer" of the information, which in this case would be you, I suppose. I'll say it directly. I don't trust any "friend" of Sikelliot. All I've ever gotten from them is doctored or cherry-picked data, photos, history, you name it. They're as bad as the Spaniards who used to post here.

So far as I'm concerned, the way to look at the data from Italo-Americans is Sicily vs mainland southern Italy. I'm skeptical of anything else. 

My two cents.

----------


## Azzurro

> Very interesting, Ironside. Does this calculator perhaps not have a reference population for Saudis? 
> 
> @seanp
> Don't play games. Obviously, if someone is really Saudi and says he's Basque, it will be easy to tell it's fraudulent. However, if you're trying to find fine scale substructure within one country, you want to make absolutely certain that at least all four grandparents of that person come from exactly the same spot. Hopefully, you'd want to go even further back into the family tree. If you're talking about Italian-Americans, I know hundreds if not thousands of them, and even the ones who are in their 80s are often "mixed", i.e. half Barese/half Sicilian, half Calabrese/half Neapolitan etc. These are people born here in America. You don't seem to have a grasp of how long ago most Italians arrived in the U.S. and Canada, so long ago that these first generation Italo-Americans sometimes don't even know the precise area from which their ancestors came. People have told me they're from Lazio when upon questioning they're from an area which is now Lazio but used to be Campania. I've had Arbereshe tell me they're Calabrian or Sicilian, people who think they're from Campania because the ship's manifest says that they departed from Napoli. It's a mess.
> 
> That's even assuming that I trust the "gatherer" of the information, which in this case would be you, I suppose. I'll say it directly. I don't trust any "friend" of Sikelliot. All I've ever gotten from them is doctored or cherry-picked data, photos, history, you name it. They're as bad as the Spaniards who used to post here.
> 
> So far as I'm concerned, the way to look at the data from Italo-Americans is Sicily vs mainland southern Italy. I'm skeptical of anything else. 
> 
> My two cents.


You are absolutely right about the whole mixed Italian ethnicities in North America, In Montreal majority of Italian immigration came in the 50's and 60's as did my 4 grandparents, so I and most of my friends are second generation Italo-Canadians, and I do not know or grew up with of these second generations who is fully from the same ancestral village let alone the same region, but all of our parents being first generation would be good representations, so first generation Italo-Canadians from Montreal would qualify.

----------


## Angela

@Seanp,

If you have any ability to think rationally, it has escaped me. You also seem to have a big problem with creating straw man arguments. Where precisely did I bring up whether these people are "real" Italians?

That's not the issue. The issue is whether Italians from the New World are the best subjects for refining Italian regional genetic substructure. The answer to that is that in my opinion they're not. There's too much admixture, and they often know too little about their origins. As to whether Canada is different, perhaps it is. In the U.S., the vast majority of the immigration was over by the 1920s and 1930s.

----------


## Sile

> Harappa World gives so strange results. I am Pakistani Kashmiri, but it gave me 41% Baloch. I don't know why.


maybe because baloch is pakistans neighbour

----------


## Angela

@ Azzurro,

Stop presuming to speak for all New World Italians. 

You keep up this nonsense and you will go the way of Seanp. Keep your posts on topic and supported by data.

Hai Capito?


You have also now engaged in a personal attack. It was reported and you will get an infraction. As a result you now have 10 infraction points and will be banned for 10 days. Keep it up, and it will be months, like Seanp.

You wouldn't dare try this at Anthrogenica, so you know what, don't try it here. We try to keep things a little looser and more fun, but that doesn't mean you can bring your agenda driven, stupid, flame wars here. Got it? 

And that goes for everyone.

----------


## Angela

> Sure, I should be Saudi Arabian for the last 4 generations. When I took the test I hoped that it may shed light on how I got this Y-dna of mine, but I'm now more confused than before.
> 
> Sparkey made a map for I2c
> 
> Attachment 8975
> 
> I personally invoke the sea peoples  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian#Pottery


Ironside, do your ancestors come from near Yemen, or are there any tribal ties with the Yemen? 

Wasn't Bin Laden, for example, actually of Yemeni origin? Or am I mis-remembering that?

I thought perhaps there might be some fluidity across the borders.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Harappa World gives so strange results. I am Pakistani Kashmiri, but it gave me 41% Baloch. I don't know why.


Read this, it probably helps you.

"Thus, I have renamed "Pakistani/Caucasian" as "Balochistan/Caucasus". I didn't use the shorter Baloch as this component is equally high among the Baloch, Brahui and Makrani, all populations living in the province of Balochistan. "

http://www.harappadna.org/2011/03/balochistancaucasian/

----------


## LeBrok

> Sure, I should be Saudi Arabian for the last 4 generations.


 You don't really fit any population in my database well. Saudi tribes might be varied genetically.

Saudi Arabia
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
IronSide
1.62
6.34
30.15
0.79

0.30
0.57
0.77
0.01
0.08
9.34
43.76

6.27



2
Saudi
1.00
5.00
26.00
1.00






3.00
58.00

3.00

1.00

3
Yemen
2.00
8.00
27.00
1.00





1.00
5.00
36.00

8.00
1.00
9.00

4
Yemen jew
1.00
2.00
36.00







6.00
51.00

4.00



5
Bedouin

5.00
21.00
2.00






7.00
56.00

5.00

3.00

----------


## IronSide

> Ironside, do your ancestors come from near Yemen, or are there any tribal ties with the Yemen? 
> 
> Wasn't Bin Laden, for example, actually of Yemeni origin? Or am I mis-remembering that?
> 
> I thought perhaps there might be some fluidity across the borders.


Well it's rather complicated, paternally I'm from the Quraysh tribe in Mecca and around the Hejaz, low numbers today, and from my maternal side I'm from Ghamid, who migrated from Yemen 2000 years ago to Western Arabia, and this migration is authentic because the tribe is mentioned in Sabaean inscriptions, and also Bani Malik, another tribe in the Hejaz.

this is a guy from Ghamid, very similar to my results:

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
SW-Asian
42.42

2
Caucasian
31.11

3
Mediterranean
9.35

4
Baloch
6.43

5
E-African
6.38

6
S-Indian
2.8

7
SE-Asian
0.75

8
NE-Euro
0.48

9
American
0.15

10
W-African
0.12



*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
yemen-jew (behar)
10.73

2
yemenese (behar)
12.53

3
egyptian (behar)
12.93

4
palestinian (hgdp)
13.51

5
egypt (henn2012)
13.83

6
jordanian (behar)
15.64

7
bedouin (hgdp)
15.72

8
saudi (behar)
16.42

9
qatari (henn2012)
18.87

10
samaritian (behar)
19.18

11
syrian (behar)
19.47

12
palestinian (harappa)
20.11

13
lebanese (behar)
21.01

14
iraqi-arab (harappa)
23.37

15
lebanese-muslim (haber)
24.45

16
lebanese-christian (haber)
25.17

17
iraq-jew (behar)
26.27

18
libya (henn2012)
26.79

19
lebanese-druze (haber)
26.92

20
iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
27.73



and this is another guy in my matches:

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
SW-Asian
45.71

2
Caucasian
29.7

3
Mediterranean
7.55

4
Baloch
6.96

5
E-African
6.73

6
NE-Euro
1.22

7
NE-Asian
0.67

8
S-Indian
0.62

9
American
0.34

10
Siberian
0.25

11
Beringian
0.13

12
San
0.12



*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
yemen-jew (behar)
9.22

2
bedouin (hgdp)
12.41

3
saudi (behar)
12.93

4
yemenese (behar)
13.76

5
egyptian (behar)
15.47

6
qatari (henn2012)
15.98

7
egypt (henn2012)
16.6

8
palestinian (hgdp)
16.87

9
jordanian (behar)
18.91

10
samaritian (behar)
22.26

11
syrian (behar)
22.56

12
palestinian (harappa)
23.04

13
lebanese (behar)
24.27

14
iraqi-arab (harappa)
26.14

15
libya (henn2012)
27.58

16
lebanese-muslim (haber)
27.62

17
lebanese-christian (haber)
28.31

18
iraq-jew (behar)
28.98

19
lebanese-druze (haber)
30.05

20
iraqi-mandaean (harappa)
30.28

----------


## LeBrok

> Well it's rather complicated, paternally I'm from the Quraysh tribe in Mecca and around the Hejaz, low numbers today, and from my maternal side I'm from Ghamid, who migrated from Yemen 2000 years ago to Western Arabia, and this migration is authentic because the tribe is mentioned in Sabaean inscriptions, and also Bani Malik, another tribe in the Hejaz.
> 
> this is a guy from Ghamid, very similar to my results:
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> ...


Wow, this is freakishly close to yours! Probably quite normal for isolated tribes to be so uniformly mixed by endogamy. Everybody is having almost exactly same genome. Tribe is you, and you are the tribe. A perfect union. :) No mater who will survive from the tribe, will carry everybody's DNA.
Do you guys look like brothers or even like twins?

----------


## LeBrok

New update. We have samples from Portugal and Basque. Basque is weird and will take some explaining.
We have Malta, which turned to be very close to Sicily and Ionian Greeks. Yes, I added Ionian Greeks.
As curiosity, I added Samaritans, who plot between Lebanese and Palestinians. Most likely like Jews of Roman/Iron Age era used to.


Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Finland
4
1
4
2
72
0
5
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Netherlands
Northerner
0
9
6
55
0
0
0
1
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

Russia
Harappa
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

Belorussia
Harappa
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

Ukraine
Harappa
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Slovenia
2
1
7
15
50
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
2
0
0
0
0

Croatia
8
0
7
17
45
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
4
0
0
0
0

Bosnia
2
0
9
21
41
0
1
0
0
1
0
23
5
0
0
0
0

Serbia
1
0
8
20
40
0
1
0
0
1
0
27
4
0
0
0
0

Austria
1
0
6
17
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
28
4
0
0
0
0

Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0

Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

French
Harappa
0
9
10
42
0
0
0
0
0
0
36
2
0
0
0
0

Portugal
7
0
5
13
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
8
0
1
0
1

Spain
Harappa
1
6
10
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
45
5
0
1
0
0

Basque
5
1
6
1
32
0
0
0
0
0
0
56
2
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Malta
7
0
7
33
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
14
0
1
0
1

Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0

Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0

Lebanon
7
0
11
45
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
24
0
1
0
0

Samaritans
3
0
7
45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
31
0
2
0
0

Palestine
46
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2

----------


## LeBrok

Here is how we can explain Basque admixtures. They look very much like Neolithic or Chalcolithic farmers from Spain, who admixed with Yamnaya/West Corded Ware invaders. In ratio of something like 3 to 1 respectively. The latter brought Baloch, increased NE Euro and lower Med. I'm not sure why their Caucasian admixture diminished to almost nothing, perhaps a local drift, though it wasn't high to start with. Basque genetics remained unchanged since Bronze Age, I suppose.

Now, modern Spanish look almost like Basque, but with a twist. Caucasian admixture rose in them to 10 and also SW-Asian to 5. This is what we also see, but on much bigger scale on Balkans and Italy. Some kind of big Bronze Age migration from Anatolia/Armenia. The farther West they went the smaller was the effect. Looks like Basque were sheltered from this Anatolian Bronze invasion.
Off course the Greeks, Phoenicians, Romans and Germans had some effect but I don't think it was overwhelming in any way. It is hard to say exactly, because of lack of samples from many eras. 

M815035
 I0406

M849224 ATP2
ATP2

M422959
ATP 16

Modern


Modern


Spain MN

Spain Chalcolithic
5kya

Spain
Pre BB, 4.5kya
Basque


Spanish


Run time
9.08

Run time
11.46

Run Time
6.67

Run Time


Run Time


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
1

S-Indian
1

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
6

Baloch
6

Caucasian
5

Caucasian
4

Caucasian
7

Caucasian
1

Caucasian
10

NE-Euro
25

NE-Euro
24

NE-Euro
21

NE-Euro
32

NE-Euro
31

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
0

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
62

Mediterranean
63

Mediterranean
70

Mediterranean
56

Mediterranean
45

SW-Asian
8

SW-Asian
5

SW-Asian
3

SW-Asian
2

SW-Asian
5

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0

W-African
3

W-African
0

W-African


W-African

----------


## IronSide

> Wow, this is freakishly close to yours! Probably quite normal for isolated tribes to be so uniformly mixed by endogamy. Everybody is having almost exactly same genome. Tribe is you, and you are the tribe. A perfect union. :) No mater who will survive from the tribe, will carry everybody's DNA.
> Do you guys look like brothers or even like twins?


I don't know about endogamy, my parents and their parents come from different villages of the three tribes I mentioned, I think Western Arabia is different from the samples collected by Behar, he probably collected them from the central region where the capital is.

And no we don't look like brothers, that would be weird :)

The thing that annoys me is that if anyone here gets a haplogroup other than J1, he is immediately assumed to be a descendant of some bastard, while I don't care personally, this behavior has discouraged anyone without J1 from joining projects. There is a clan called Bani Shaiba, these guys held the keys to the Kaaba from the time of Muhammad, father to son in a continuous line, their results turned to be R1a-L657.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ia/dna-results

----------


## noman

> Like it should be. Baloch is ancient central Asian admixture. The center of it is in Iran and Pakistan these days, and probably always has been. Check post #1 of this thread for more info.


Central Asian; how come it's Central Asian admixture, when Balochistan region is South Western Pakistan, Southern Afghanistan and Eastern Iran? All these 3 countries lie in South Asia.




> Read this, it probably helps you.
> 
> "Thus, I have renamed "Pakistani/Caucasian" as "Balochistan/Caucasus". I didn't use the shorter Baloch as this component is equally high among the Baloch, Brahui and Makrani, all populations living in the province of Balochistan. "
> 
> http://www.harappadna.org/2011/03/balochistancaucasian/


It doesn't make any sense to me. I am from Kashmir region of Chauhan ethnicity. This ethnic group could be a part of any ethnic groups like: Rajput, Gujjar, or Jatt. DNA results show most of my close matches are Jatt. Now, Jatts are predominant in Punjab region of both Pakistan and India.




> maybe because baloch is pakistans neighbour


Balochistan is Pakistan's South Western province. Ancient Balochistan includes: South Western Pakistan, Southern Afghanistan and Eastern Iran.

Don't know why calculator shows *41% Baloch* for me.

----------


## LeBrok

> I don't know about endogamy, my parents and their parents come from different villages of the three tribes I mentioned, I think Western Arabia is different from the samples collected by Behar, he probably collected them from the central region where the capital is.
> 
> And no we don't look like brothers, that would be weird :)
> 
> The thing that annoys me is that if anyone here gets a haplogroup other than J1, he is immediately assumed to be a descendant of some bastard, while I don't care personally, this behavior has discouraged anyone without J1 from joining projects. There is a clan called Bani Shaiba, these guys held the keys to the Kaaba from the time of Muhammad, *father to son in a continuous line, their results turned to be R1a-L657.
> *
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ia/dna-results


I like that. It is eye opener for people to understand how things really are.

----------


## LeBrok

> Central Asian; how come it's Central Asian admixture, when Balochistan region is South Western Pakistan, Southern Afghanistan and Eastern Iran? All these 3 countries lie in South Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me. I am from Kashmir region of Chauhan ethnicity. This ethnic group could be a part of any ethnic groups like: Rajput, Gujjar, or Jatt. DNA results show most of my close matches are Jatt. Now, Jatts are predominant in Punjab region of both Pakistan and India.
> 
> 
> 
> Balochistan is Pakistan's South Western province. Ancient Balochistan includes: South Western Pakistan, Southern Afghanistan and Eastern Iran.
> ...


I called it central Asia where Baloch is usually found, but its epicenter is in South/Central Asia to be precise. Didn't I say Iran/Pakistan?

This component goes beyond any ethnic group of today. It started forming 40 thousand years ago!




> Don't know why calculator shows 41% Baloch for me.


What should it show for you to be happy?

----------


## noman

> I called it central Asia where Baloch is usually found, but its epicenter is in South/Central Asia to be precise. Didn't I say Iran/Pakistan?
> 
> This component goes beyond any ethnic group of today. It started forming 40 thousand years ago!
> 
> 
> What should it show for you to be happy?


Baloch ethnic group is not found in Central Asia, but rather South-West Asia.
Take a look at maps. Do you see Balochistan in Central Asia?
*Kashmir is the region I belong to.

*Balochistan

*Maps


It's not about being happy or sad from my results. It's just unbelievable that I am such huge percentage of Baloch ethnicity. I am just curious about it. Simple!

----------


## LeBrok

> Baloch ethnic group is not found in Central Asia, but rather South-West Asia.
> Take a look at maps. Do you see Balochistan in Central Asia?
> *Kashmir is the region I belong to.
> 
> *Balochistan
> 
> *Maps
> 
> 
> It's not about being happy or sad from my results. It's just unbelievable that I am such huge percentage of Baloch ethnicity. I am just curious about it. Simple!


 I see your confusion now. Baloch *is not ethnicity* in admixture composition. It is just happened that creator of these admixtures, known as HarappaWorld, borrowed a name for this admixture from Baloch people. Same as NE Euro or Mediterranean is not ethnicity, and are found all over Europe, Near East and even in North Africa. Besides a fact that ethnicity is strictly a cultural phenomenon and it is not engraved in DNA. It is highly unlikely that your "Baloch" component even came from Balochistan or Iran. Unless you were adopted from there, so technically not impossible.

Let's go back thousands of years ago to the first samples we discovered from this area. They were hunter gatherers of Caucasus and Iran. Keep in mind that 10 kya there was no Iran and Caucasus Mountains had different name. We call it this way so people can localise these samples on modern maps. In these samples, dated 11-9 thousand years ago we discovered that they contained similar genetic components as people of today.

You can see that the highest Baloch component ever registered was in people who lived 10 thousand years ago in what is now Iran. Today this component is the highest in Pakistan in Brahui people.
This component also came to Europe together with Steppe population of West Asia. Almost every European carries it. People of Eurasia always moved around and mixed. That's why we all have similar components, genetics, just in different proportions.



M677694


M967114 I1290

Modern


Satsurblia CHG
11KYA

Iranian Neolithic
10 kya

Brahui


Run time
12.66

Run time
7.91

Run time


S-Indian
-

S-Indian
6

S-Indian
12

Baloch
41.00

Baloch
63

Baloch
58

Caucasian
41

Caucasian
25

Caucasian
12

NE-Euro
6

NE-Euro
-

NE-Euro
2

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
1

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
1

Papuan


Papuan
1

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
-

Mediterranean
2

SW-Asian
-

SW-Asian
4

SW-Asian


San


San


San


E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
1

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy


W-African
2

W-African
2

W-African
1

----------


## noman

> I see your confusion now. Baloch *is not ethnicity* in admixture composition. It is just happened that creator of these admixtures, known as HarappaWorld, borrowed a name for this admixture from Baloch people. Same as NE Euro or Mediterranean is not ethnicity, and are found all over Europe, Near East and even in North Africa. Besides a fact that ethnicity is strictly a cultural phenomenon and it is not engraved in DNA. It is highly unlikely that your "Baloch" component even came from Balochistan or Iran. Unless you were adopted from there, so technically not impossible.
> 
> Let's go back thousands of years ago to the first samples we discovered from this area. They were hunter gatherers of Caucasus and Iran. Keep in mind that 10 kya there was no Iran and Caucasus Mountains had different name. We call it this way so people can localise these samples on modern maps. In these samples, dated 11-9 thousand years ago we discovered that they contained similar genetic components as people of today.
> 
> You can see that the highest Baloch component ever registered was in people who lived 10 thousand years ago in what is now Iran. Today this component is the highest in Pakistan in Brahui people.
> This component also came to Europe together with Steppe population of West Asia. Almost every European carries it. People of Eurasia always moved around and mixed. That's why we all have similar components, genetics, just in different proportions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got it now. I kept thinking that Baloch in the calculator means Baloch ethnicity. In this case, I won't be wrong, if I assume that R2 haplogroup originated in West Asia. Right?

*Population*
*%*

Baloch
41.15

S-Indian
30.57

Caucasian
12.79

NE-Euro
8.90

SW-Asian
2.39

Siberian
1.92

----------


## LeBrok

> Got it now. I kept thinking that Baloch in the calculator means Baloch ethnicity. In this case, I won't be wrong, if *I assume that R2 haplogroup originated in West Asia*. Right?


We don't know exactly where it originated, yet. Possibly South or Central Asia. There is really a shortage of ancient samples from this area. IIRC the only R2 samples come from ancient Iran.




> *Population*
> *%*
> 
> Baloch
> 41.15
> 
> S-Indian
> 30.57
> 
> ...


You have very high NE Euro and Siberian admixture for Pakistan. About 15% of your DNA comes from Steppe, Central Asia or perhaps Eastern Europe. Or you had a great grandfather from Central Asia? I wonder if your admixtures are typical for Kashmir. Do you know other people from your area who did DNA test? Brahui of Pakistan have somewhat different proportions of admixtures, though not that far away.

----------


## noman

> We don't know exactly where it originated, yet. Possibly South or Central Asia. There is really a shortage of ancient samples from this area. IIRC the only R2 samples come from ancient Iran.
> 
> 
> You have very high NE Euro and Siberian admixture for Pakistan. About 15% of your DNA comes from Steppe, Central Asia or perhaps Eastern Europe. Or you had a great grandfather from Central Asia? I wonder if your admixtures are typical for Kashmir. Do you know other people from your area who did DNA test? Brahui of Pakistan have somewhat different proportions of admixtures, though not that far away.


I don't know anything about my family history. I just know that we are Kashmiri. My ethnicity is Chauhan, but someone told me that caste doesn't matter since it used to variate time to time based on people's occupation. I know another guy from Kashmir. His Y DNA is R2a, and he is of Jatt ethnic group. On 23andme, most of my close matches are Jatt/Sikhs. Most of Kashmir region is very remote area, so not many people do DNA tests. I don't have more than 14.3 cM matche on GEDmatch. On 23andme, I share 0.34% with someone anonymous, which is the highest one.

My Y DNA on 23andme says *R-L266*, which is I guess South Asian.

----------


## Pratt

Updated PCA

----------


## LeBrok

Thanks Pratt. I'll try to add few ancient samples for reference next time.

----------


## Dibran

> Thanks Pratt. I'll try to add few ancient samples for reference next time.



I recall you mentioning me and my fathers kits shifted towards sardinia and greece. Could you include my living dna results and see how it differs?

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
29.7

2
Caucasian
28.32

3
NE-Euro
26.35

4
SW-Asian
9.72

5
Baloch
5.52

6
Beringian
0.39


*

----------


## LeBrok

> I recall you mentioning me and my fathers kits shifted towards sardinia and greece. Could you include my living dna results and see how it differs?
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> #
> Population
> Percent
> 
> 1
> ...


I don't see any significant change.

----------


## LeBrok

Here is an update. Added Germany, Sweden, Norway, Saami and important ancient samples. Whole database is split into 4 parts, West Europe, East Europe, Near East and Ancient.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Norway
7
0
9
4
56
0
3
0
0
1
1
25
0
0
0
0
0

Sweden
11
0
8
5
56
0
0
0
0
0
0
28
1
0
0
0
0

Ireland
2
0
12
4
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
33
0
0
0
0
0

Scotland
4
0
10
6
51
0
0
0
0
0
1
31
0
0
0
0
0

Wales
3
0
10
6
50
0
0
0
0
1
0
32
0
0
0
0
0

England
7
0
10
7
50
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
0
0
0
0
0

Holland-North
4
0
10
6
54
0
0
0
0
0
0
29
0
0
0
0
0

Germany, North
8
0
9
8
53
0
0
0
0
1
0
27
1
0
0
0
0

Germany, South
2
0
9
12
43
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
3
0
0
0
0

Switzerland-French
3
0
8
15
41
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
4
0
0
0
0

French
Harappa
0
9
10
42
0
0
0
0
0
0
36
2
0
0
0
0

Portugal
7
0
5
13
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
8
0
1
0
1

Spain
Harappa
1
6
10
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
45
5
0
1
0
0

Basque
4
1
6
1
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
58
1
0
0
0
0

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, NW
5
0
6
20
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
34
6
0
0
0
0

Italy, Tuscany
4
0
7
25
28
0
0
0
0
0
0
32
8
0
0
0
0

Italy, South
5
0
8
32
17
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
13
0
1
0
0

Sicily
5
0
9
32
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
12
0
1
0
0

Malta
7
0
7
33
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
14
0
1
0
1

Sardinia
5
0
0
24
16
0
0
0
1
0
0
49
10
0
0
0
0




















Saami
4
1
3
0
59
1
18
3
1
2
4
5
0
0
0
0
3

Finland
6
1
4
3
71
0
6
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

Russia
Harappa
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

Belorussia
Harappa
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

Ukraine
Harappa
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Slovenia
3
0
7
15
50
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
3
0
0
0
0

Croatia
8
0
7
17
45
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
4
0
0
0
0

Bosnia
2
0
9
21
41
0
1
0
0
1
0
23
5
0
0
0
0

Serbia
1
0
8
20
40
0
1
0
0
1
0
27
4
0
0
0
0

Austria
2
0
7
15
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
30
4
0
0
0
0

Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0

Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0




















Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0

Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0

Lebanon
7
0
11
45
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
24
0
1
0
0

Samaritans
3
0
7
45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
31
0
2
0
0

Palestine
Harappa
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2

Iran
Harappa
4
27
40
5
1
2
1
1
0
1
5
13
0
0
0
0




















Ancient samples


















WHG




78



1


21






SHG




90



1
2
1
7






EHG


14

76




10








CHG

1
34
51
6
1
1









6

Iran Neolithic

6
63
25








4



2

Yamnaya


33
7
56




2
1





1

Armenia BA


23
39
19

1

1
1
1
9
5



2

Anatolia LN


9
48
6






27
9





Hungary LN



19
17






56
8





Hungary BA


3
15
46






32
3





Italy BA



11
21
1





61
5



1

Spain MN



19
11






58
12





Spain LN



4
24






63
5



3

Unetice BA


16
6
58




1

19






Ireland BA

1
13
2
53

1


1

27




2

BellBeaker


11
2
54






32






Hungary IA


15
15
44

3


2

21






Sarmatian, IA


25
6
51

4


2
1
11






England IA


11
6
50





1
31




1

Sweden IA


10

61




1

28




1

Andronovo, BA

1
21
3
56

2


1
1
14




1

----------


## Pratt

new updated PCAs. 


with ancient samples















without ancient samples

----------


## Angela

> new updated PCAs. 
> 
> 
> with ancient samples
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent work. Thank you.

Lots of food for thought there.

Hungary Bronze Age, which so often shows up when looking at Italian genetics is very close to Germany South. Since Remedello, Northern Italy moved a bit "north", Tuscany a bit "south", but the real movement has been "east". 

Does Greece Ionia refer to the Ionian islands off the west coast of Mainland Greece or Ionian Greece in antiquity?

----------


## LeBrok

> Excellent work. Thank you.
> 
> Lots of food for thought there.
> 
> Hungary Bronze Age, which so often shows up when looking at Italian genetics is very close to Germany South. Since Remedello, Northern Italy moved a bit "north", Tuscany a bit "south", but the real movement has been "east". 
> 
> Does Greece Ionia refer to the Ionian islands off the west coast of Mainland Greece or Ionian Greece in antiquity?


Modern Ionian Sea Greek islands.

----------


## Angela

> Modern Ionian Sea Greek islands.


Thanks, LeBrok...

Interesting: on the PCA they appear to be the closest Greek population to South Italy/Sicily, yes? In the Greek dna paper the Peloponnese, which is also across the Ionian Sea from those parts of Italy, was the closest population to Sicily. Of course, this could just be coincidence based on a small sample size, but interesting none the less. Those Greek islands might have been relatively insulated from Slavic genetic flow in the early Middle Ages.

----------


## Angela

LeBrok, are there any decent ancient Cardial samples from southern areas? As you said, it would be great if a Greek Neolithic sample was available too.

It would be interesting to compare them both to the Greek samples from relatively isolated areas and to Italy South and Sicily samples, especially Italy South because you don't have any confounding Medieval Berber or Levantine/Arabian admixture.

----------


## LeBrok

> LeBrok, are there any decent ancient Cardial samples from southern areas? As you said, it would be great if a Greek Neolithic sample was available too.
> 
> It would be interesting to compare them both to the Greek samples from relatively isolated areas and to Italy South and Sicily samples, especially Italy South because you don't have any confounding Medieval Berber or Levantine/Arabian admixture.


 Maybe this one is from Spain:

 M471235
I0412

M405327
I1506 NE1
M572125
I0054

Spain, Els Trocs
7kya

Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát
7.2kya

Stuttgart
LBK

Run time
5.2

Run time
19.95

Run time
8.99

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
13.46

Caucasian
28.27

Caucasian
30.6

NE-Euro
7.07

NE-Euro
12.13

NE-Euro
7.82

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
72.28

Mediterranean
45.75

Mediterranean
49.46

SW-Asian
7.08

SW-Asian
13.45

SW-Asian
12.01

San
-

San
-

San
0.11

E-African
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.11

Pygmy
0.05

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

W-African
0.35

W-African
-




It is somewhat different than the guys from Central Europe, but still in the family. It is shifted towards Mediterranean, classic for Spain and Italy. It bares no relation to Levant Neolithic which is very high in SW Asian, and much lower Med.

M115616
I0867

Levant Neolithic

Run time
9.93

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
25.97

NE-Euro
-

SE-Asian
0.07

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
0.06

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
32.53

SW-Asian
39.86

San
-

E-African
1.52

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

----------


## Sneakysalami69

Phoenician?

----------


## Angela

> Maybe this one is from Spain:
> 
>  M471235
> I0412
> 
> M405327
> I1506 NE1
> M572125
> I0054
> ...


Thanks, LeBroc

Interesting that Cardial has less SWAsian, and less "Caucasian", but much more Mediterranean than the others.

Also interesting that South Italians and Sicilians today have the same amount of SW Asian today as Stuttgart and Hungary Neolithic had thousands of years ago. Quite a coincidence if that's what it is.

----------


## davef

Wow! Mr Levant Neolithic is the king of southern-ness...
.25 Caucasus, .32 mediterranran, .39 percent sw asian? Nobody scores at least .25 across all three of these components. Ancient samples can be fascinating

----------


## LeBrok

> Thanks, LeBroc
> 
> Interesting that Cardial has less SWAsian, and less "Caucasian", *but much more Mediterranean* than the others.
> 
> Also interesting that South Italians and Sicilians today have the same amount of SW Asian today as Stuttgart and Hungary Neolithic had thousands of years ago. Quite a coincidence if that's what it is.


So far I can't explain it in another way that genetic drift. Some Caucasian admixture have changed into Med.

----------


## Sile

> Wow! Mr Levant Neolithic is the king of southern-ness...
> .25 Caucasus, .32 mediterranran, .39 percent sw asian? Nobody scores at least .25 across all three of these components. Ancient samples can be fascinating


maybe nat-geno old tests for phoenician ( north levant admixture )

*Ancient maritime traders of the Mediterranean may have left behind a large genetic footprint in the region, where 1 in 17 men still harbors Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.

The findings could fill a gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, which originated two to three thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean—in what is now Lebanon and Syria—and included prominent traders, according to Chris Tyler-Smith, lead author and associate researcher at National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. (The National Geographic Society owns National Geographic News.)
Genetics gives an alluring clue. The Lebanese, the descendants of the Phoenicians, cluster with the Northern Middle East (along with Kurds and Armenians). This is significant because both Kurds and Armenians are Indo-Iranian groups—nations that speak Indo-European languages (not Semitic ones).
*

revealed that north-levant peoples came from the north of the zargos mountains and the south-levant came from negrev/North-east africa .............the admixture "war" happened in modern south lebanon

It fits with the late bronze age hittite empire of the levant

----------


## LeBrok

Thanks to Mlukas, we have two decent quality Neolithic Greek samples. Seems that Geek Neolithic wasn't much different from the rest of Balkans and West Anatolia. This is from Zuzana Hofmanova paper.
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/25/6886.abstract

First one is Early Neolithic from mainland Greece, the other is Late Neolithic from close by. Third sample is from Barcin Anatolia, forth is from EN Hungary. We can see that Greek samples plot between them, and generally in group of Anatolian and European Neolithic samples.

Z394045
I0406

Z732775
klei10




M897077
I0707

M405327
I1506 NE1

Greece, Revenia
EN, 8.5kya
Greece, Kleitos
LN, 6.5kya



Anatolia, Barcin
EN, 9kya

Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát
7.2kya

Run time
6.86

Run time
8.36




Run time
12.07

Run time
19.95

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-




S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
-




Baloch
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
28.9

Caucasian
34.58




Caucasian
37.64

Caucasian
28.27

NE-Euro
4.28

NE-Euro
3.84




NE-Euro
0.86

NE-Euro
12.13

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
1.04




SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
-




Siberian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
1.15

NE-Asian
-




NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.61

Papuan
-




Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
0.12




American
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Beringian
-




Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
45.25

Mediterranean
44.45




Mediterranean
47.24

Mediterranean
45.75

SW-Asian
12.2

SW-Asian
13.14




SW-Asian
14

SW-Asian
13.45

San
-

San
0.08




San
-

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-




E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

Pygmy
-




Pygmy
-

Pygmy
0.05

W-African
7.56

W-African
2.74




W-African
0.27

W-African
0.35



The late Neolithic Greek is almost identical to Barcin Anatolia, though 2ky younger. It just has 3 point more of NE Euro, which is understandable going deeper into WHG country. However, the EN Greek is a bit peculiar with much less Caucasian and interestingly 7.56% of West African. Some W African in ancient european samples is noise but not 7 percent. I believe it must be due to this sample being a bit small, which can affect admixture proportions. Unless someone has alternative explanation?

----------


## New Englander

7.56% West African?

----------


## LM22

opulation 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	8.07
Caucasian	25.87
NE-Euro	28.30
SE-Asian	0.12
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	- 
American	0.19
Beringian	- 
Mediterranean	28.61
SW-Asian	8.81
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## LeBrok

> 7.56% West African?


 I added a comment at the end of that post.

----------


## LeBrok

> opulation 
> S-Indian - 
> Baloch 8.07
> Caucasian 25.87
> NE-Euro 28.30
> SE-Asian 0.12
> Siberian - 
> NE-Asian - 
> Papuan - 
> ...


Thanks, are you Gheg Albanian?

----------


## davef

> maybe nat-geno old tests for phoenician ( north levant admixture )
> 
> *Ancient maritime traders of the Mediterranean may have left behind a large genetic footprint in the region, where 1 in 17 men still harbors Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.
> 
> The findings could fill a gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, which originated two to three thousand years ago in the eastern Mediterranean—in what is now Lebanon and Syria—and included prominent traders, according to Chris Tyler-Smith, lead author and associate researcher at National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. (The National Geographic Society owns National Geographic News.)
> Genetics gives an alluring clue. The Lebanese, the descendants of the Phoenicians, cluster with the Northern Middle East (along with Kurds and Armenians). This is significant because both Kurds and Armenians are Indo-Iranian groups—nations that speak Indo-European languages (not Semitic ones).
> *
> 
> revealed that north-levant peoples came from the north of the zargos mountains and the south-levant came from negrev/North-east africa .............the admixture "war" happened in modern south lebanon
> ...


Cool post, Sile. Phoenicians are interesting...I read from a cracked article that they've been recorded by various monarchs throughout the Middle East and Southern Europe....yet no one could figure out where they came from or who they even were to begin with. They were a real mystery!!

----------


## davef

http://www.cracked.com/article_22138...n-explain.html

----------


## Pratt

I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians. 


Updated PCA with Minoans and Mycenaeans. Greece_N is I2937.

----------


## LeBrok

> I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians.


Thanks Pratt, could you share their GEDmatch kit numbers in this thread, please:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...th-kit-numbers

----------


## Falco

> I did some tests with the Minoans and Mycenaeans. Their results ​​change a lot from calculator to calculator, but there is a constant, especially the Mycenaeans are very Sardinian-shifted. Not all samples are of the same quality, often the gedmatch's calculators use only a small number of SNPs for their evaluation. The most problematic is Crete Armenoi, indeed a low quality sample, it has very inconsistent results on gedmatch, and seems to vary a lot from calculator to calculator, shifting sometimes towards northwestern Europe, sometimes towards northeastern Europe, and sometimes even towards Sardinians. 
> 
> 
> Updated PCA with Minoans and Mycenaeans. Greece_N is I2937.


Interesting that the Mycenaeans plot so differently here (and on other amateur calcs) compared to the Lazaridis PCA. Also of note is how much more southerly they are compared to Sicilians and south Italians here, whereas in the Lazaridis plot they're very close. Any reason for such contrast?

----------


## Pratt

> Thanks Pratt, could you share their GEDmatch kit numbers in this thread, please:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...th-kit-numbers



yes of course

----------


## davef

The bottom most mycenaean is quite an outlier. He can't play well with the others : p

----------


## LeBrok

Have a look at the pic below. It thic PCA means anything, it indicates that shift from Minoans to Mycenaeans occurred through mix from Yamnaya rather than Armenica BA. I made three circles, one for Minoans, one for Mycenaeans and one for Modern Greeks. Greeks move with time in straight line towards Yamnaya. 

HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks.jpg

However if Minoans were not representative of Greeks on mainland, and were totally replaced by Mycenaeans, then it makes sense to use Greek Neolithic as a starting point and draw a line to Bronze Age Armenia. Interestingly we go through Mycenaeans and East Islanders with Crete included, all in straight line. We are missing Greece Mainland, because it was shifted towards East Europe by Slavs and maybe few others.

HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks2.jpg

----------


## Angela

> Have a look at the pic below. It thic PCA means anything, it indicates that shift from Minoans to Mycenaeans occurred through mix from Yamnaya rather than Armenica BA. I made three circles, one for Minoans, one for Mycenaeans and one for Modern Greeks. Greeks move with time in straight line towards Yamnaya. 
> 
> HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks.jpg
> 
> However if Minoans were not representative of Greeks on mainland, and were totally replaced by Mycenaeans, then it makes sense to use Greek Neolithic as a starting point and draw a line to Bronze Age Armenia. Interestingly we go through Mycenaeans and East Islanders with Crete included, all in straight line. We are missing Greece Mainland, because it was shifted towards East Europe by Slavs and maybe few others.
> 
> HarappaWorld PCA, Greeks2.jpg


Very interesting.

In case you don't have all these numbers for the ancient samples:

M063398 Bar31 Anatolian Neolithic, Barcin, Turkey, 6419-6238 calBCE
M220828 AH2 Early PPN Tepe Abdul Hosein Iran 8205-7756 calBCE (10215-976)
M249214 GD13A-I1290 Early Neolithic Ganj Dareh Iran 8179-7613 calBCE
M392829 WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Iran 7455-7082 calBCE (9465-9092 ybp)
M417000 Bon002 Early PPN Central Anatolia Boncuklu 8279-7977 BCE)
M423599 I0867 Levant PPNB Motza Israel 7300-6750 BCE (9310-8760 BP)
M510029 tep002 Tepecik-Çiftlik (level 5) c. 6500 BCE (> 8500 BP)
M572712 Klei10 L. Greek Neolithic, Kleitos, 4230–3995 BCE (6240-6005 BP)
M608390 Hotu IIIb Hotu Cave Iran Mesolithic 9100-8600 BCE)
M658611 Rev5 Greek Neolithic Revenia 6438–6264 BCE (8448-8274 BP)
M701826 Bon002 depth>=2 Early PPN Central Anatolia Boncuklu 8279-7977 BCE
M711494 Bar8 Anatolian Neolithic, Barcin, 6212-6030 BCE (8222-8040 ybp)

----------


## JajarBingan

Isn't this calculator a bit outdated at this point?

Anyway, here's my contribution.

Population


S-Indian
0.44

Baloch
8.00

Caucasian
19.49

NE-Euro
41.45

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.96

NE-Asian
1.51

Papuan
0.39

American
-

Beringian
1.30

Mediterranean
22.71

SW-Asian
3.74

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

----------


## JajarBingan

Here are my results.

Population


S-Indian
0.44

Baloch
8.00

Caucasian
19.49

NE-Euro
41.45

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.96

NE-Asian
1.51

Papuan
0.39

American
-

Beringian
1.30

Mediterranean
22.71

SW-Asian
3.74

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-






I've also got around 50 Romanian GEDmatch kits from different regions in the country. So, if that can contribute to an interesting analysis then let me know and I could find some time to process them.

----------


## LeBrok

> Here are my results.
> 
> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> 0.44
> 
> Baloch
> ...


Sounds great. Welcome to Eupedia JajarBingan. 
Yes, you can send these kits via my PM, and indicate regions they are from, or try putting them in bigger geographical or ethnic regions at your discretion, and ease my workload. We need about 7-10 samples by region to create statistical data at full point of admixture.

----------


## LeBrok

> Very interesting.
> 
> In case you don't have all these numbers for the ancient samples:
> 
> M063398 Bar31 Anatolian Neolithic, Barcin, Turkey, 6419-6238 calBCE
> M220828 AH2 Early PPN Tepe Abdul Hosein Iran 8205-7756 calBCE (10215-976)
> M249214 GD13A-I1290 Early Neolithic Ganj Dareh Iran 8179-7613 calBCE
> M392829 WC1 Wezmeh Cave, Iran 7455-7082 calBCE (9465-9092 ybp)
> M417000 Bon002 Early PPN Central Anatolia Boncuklu 8279-7977 BCE)
> ...


I might have all of them, but didn't put them into the PCA for transparency, not to crowd samples too much. Though it is very hard to decide which ones are the most important.

----------


## LeBrok

> Have a look at the pic below. It thic PCA means anything, it indicates that shift from Minoans to Mycenaeans occurred through mix from Yamnaya rather than Armenica BA. I made three circles, one for Minoans, one for Mycenaeans and one for Modern Greeks. Greeks move with time in straight line towards Yamnaya. 
> 
> Attachment 9012
> 
> However if Minoans were not representative of Greeks on mainland, and were totally replaced by Mycenaeans, then it makes sense to use Greek Neolithic as a starting point and draw a line to Bronze Age Armenia. Interestingly we go through Mycenaeans and East Islanders with Crete included, all in straight line. We are missing Greece Mainland, because it was shifted towards East Europe by Slavs and maybe few others.
> 
> Attachment 9011


I forgot to mention that buy above measures, Mycenaeans shifted pre-Greeks islanders only half the way to modern location. It means that later arrival of other IE Greeks, the Dorians, Ionians and others, had to do the other half of the shift. Quite substantial shift.

----------


## Angela

> I forgot to mention that buy above measures, Mycenaeans shifted pre-Greeks islanders only half the way to modern location. It means that later arrival of other IE Greeks, the Dorians, Ionians and others, had to do the other half of the shift. Quite substantial shift.


How substantial can it be if the authors modeled modern Greeks as 70% Mycenaean? Or am I mis-remembering that?

----------


## LeBrok

> How substantial can it be if the authors modeled modern Greeks as 70% Mycenaean? Or am I mis-remembering that?


Roughly, twice what Mycenaeanians brought.

----------


## Angela

> Roughly, twice what Mycenaeanians brought.


Well, in terms of actual Yamnaya steppe admixture the Greeks have nowhere near 43% steppe, as the graphic above shows. I'm sure the paper would have the percentages, but it looks half that.

The groups which arrived after the Mycenaeans would have had their own Anatolian Neolithic like, CHG, WHG, in addition to steppe ancestry.

----------


## Pratt

I added a lot of ancient samples to the PCA




Changing perspective

----------


## Pratt

The position of Hungary Maros is very interesting. Who do they represent? What kind of culture? I find too little information.

----------


## Pratt

What is noticeable is the great variability that exists between the ancient samples, in many cases. 

The 4 Mycenaeans are varied. The ones who have likely more Yamnaya admixture are Mycenaean I9033 and Mycenaean I9041 but on average all 4 are closer to EEF. All Mycenaeans have Caucasian and Mediterranean. Mycenaean I9006 has higher Caucasian than Mediterranean, Mycenaean I9010 has higher Mediterranean than Caucasian.

Greece Neolitich and Minoans are both a mix of Mediterranean and Caucasian. But Greece Neolitich has a higher Mediterranean, Minoans have higher Caucasian.

I've added also 4 samples from Armenia ChL, they are also varied. Armenia_ChL I1409 has a high NE-Euro (25.52%), in the other Armenia ChL samples NE-Euro range from 9% to 14%. They have also Mediterranean, from 10% to 17%. Obviously their higher component is Caucasian but they seem a bit more European-shifted than modern-day Armenians. Armenia ChL I1632 and Armenia ChL I1634 are close to Greek Cretans, Armenia_ChL I1409 seems to be a bit Yamnaya-shifted.

Jordan EBA samples are more homogeneous and have no NE-Euro and very high SW-Asian but seem a bit different from Levant Neolithic.

----------


## Angela

> I added a lot of ancient samples to the PCA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Changing perspective


Interesting split between South Germany and North Germany. Also interesting how close, using this calculator, France is to Hungary BA. Greece Ionian is very close indeed to the Ashkenazim.

As for Maros Culture, have you seen this?
https://www.academia.edu/2100199/200...Central_Europe

----------


## Pratt

> As for Maros Culture, have you seen this?
> https://www.academia.edu/2100199/200...Central_Europe


No, thanks.

----------


## davef

Pratt, i was also surprised at the variation. The only two Mycenaeans that group tightly are great friends with the South Italians. As for the one far to the left near the neolithic groups...why is it plotting so far out? I'm beginning to question whether he/she's an actual mycenaean and not just a foreign visitor. I know they are mostly Anatolian, but that one plots too far from the rest. 

Were the Mycenaens this diverse?

----------


## Angela

Three of the Mycenaeans group roughly together. Only one is more Neolithic Anatolian and EEF like. Plus, this is a calculator based on modern clusters. It's interesting but by no means definitive. Do I really have to repeat this ad nauseam?

@Pratt,
I read somewhere that only one of the Mycenaean samples is of really good quality. Do you happen to know which one it was?

----------


## LeBrok

Lets use average Mycenaean. The last, far right numbers.

M209270
I9006

M472594
I9010

M665102
I9033

M866617
I9041, J2a1
Average


Greece
Mycenaean
Greece
Mycenaean
Greece
Mycenaean
Greece
Mycenaean
Greece
Mycenaean

Run time 4.43

Run time 4.43
4.1

Run time 4.43
3.4

Run time 4.43
4.87

Total run time
12.37

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

S-Indian
0

Baloch
2.89

Baloch
0

Baloch
4.34

Baloch
2.66

Baloch
2

Caucasian
45.1

Caucasian
35.14

Caucasian
37.45

Caucasian
39.9

Caucasian
39

NE-Euro
10.44

NE-Euro
11.1

NE-Euro
16.58

NE-Euro
13.12

NE-Euro
13

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

SE-Asian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

Siberian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

NE-Asian
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

Papuan
0

American
0.31

American
0

American
0

American
0

American
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Beringian
0

Mediterranean
31.21

Mediterranean
43

Mediterranean
35.17

Mediterranean
34.44

Mediterranean
36

SW-Asian
9.97

SW-Asian
10.75

SW-Asian
6.15

SW-Asian
9.88

SW-Asian
9

San
0.07

San
0

San
0

San
0

San
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

E-African
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

W-African
0

W-African
0

W-African
0.31

W-African
0

W-African
0




Can we add Natufian. I have a feeling that Minoans are on a cline exactly between Greek Neolithic and Natufians. If it is true, it would mean that Minoans had nothing to do with Anatolian Chalcolithic/BA, but could be a product of Natufian Neolithic 1/3 and mixed with Later Greek Neolithic 2/3. Though 2/3 Anatolian EN and 1/3 Jordan Neolithic fits the bill too. Anyway, they really look like a mixture of EN populations.

----------


## LeBrok

> No, thanks.


Is there a lot of work to flip the first PCA left-right, so the samples will agree geographically with typical PCA charts that we are used to? Will be less confusing for inexperienced peole.

----------


## LeBrok

I think Maros is composition of 2 lesser quality samples. Here it is, plus Iron Age Hungarian.

M974598
RISE374 and 373
F999929
IR1, N-M231

Maros Hungary [1866-1619 BC] T2 G2a-P287>P15>PF3178
IR Hungary
900 BC

Run time
5.26

Run time
 6.96

S-Indian
-

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Baloch
14.83

Caucasian
18.58

Caucasian
15.12

NE-Euro
39.65

NE-Euro
43.91

SE-Asian
-

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

Siberian
2.97

NE-Asian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

Papuan
-

American
-

American
2.03

Beringian
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
40.09

Mediterranean
21.14

SW-Asian
0.98

SW-Asian
-

San
0.17

San
-

E-African
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.15

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.39

W-African
-




Ed. I see there are both samples on PCA. 

Interestingly Modern Spaniards are exactly in straight line, and two thirds of the way, between Spain LN and Hungarian BA (Baden Culture?), with Moros samples close by. 
Anyway, extending this line even farther leads us North to half the way between Yamnaya and Armenia Chl.

----------


## Angela

> Three of the Mycenaeans group roughly together. Only one is more Neolithic Anatolian and EEF like. Plus, this is a calculator based on modern clusters. It's interesting but by no means definitive. Do I really have to repeat this ad nauseam?
> 
> @Pratt,
> 
> I read somewhere that only one of the Mycenaean samples is of really good quality. Do you happen to know which one it was?


Whatever the quality of the more "Neolithic" southern Mycenaean sample, I guarantee you the usual suspects will attempt to us it so that the corresponding percentage of more "northern" groups will go up, i.e. Corded Ware, Sintashta. 

Btw, why would anyone attempt to model modern Tuscans by using Corded Ware when later Bell Beaker samples are available?

----------


## LeBrok

> Whatever the quality of the more "Neolithic" southern Mycenaean sample, I guarantee you the usual suspects will attempt to us it so that the corresponding percentage of more "northern" groups will go up, i.e. Corded Ware, Sintashta. 
> 
> Btw, why would anyone attempt to model modern Tuscans by using Corded Ware when later Bell Beaker samples are available?


Westernmost Corded Ware and Northern BB should be very similar genetically. Definitely more mixing with farmers in the West than in East Corded Ware.

----------


## davef

Which Mycenaen is the best one?

@Angela
I read some of the thread regarding the Mycenaen study on Anthrogenica (I don't often go there, it seems questionable) and I've seen attempts at modeling Tuscans as a mixture of Mycenaen and other groups. I saw one result that gave 68 percent Mycenaen. Anyone who isn't completely clueless or stupid would find that surprising and highly dubious. Maybe there's a Mycenaen-Tuscan connection I'm unaware of  :Poh:  .

I still wonder why people were trying to model Tuscans to begin with...they don't seem relevant to the study.

----------


## Angela

> Corded Ware were Westernmost Corded Ware and Northern BB should be very similar genetically. Definitely more mixing with farmers in the West than in East Corded Ware.



I made the comment because in the analyses I've seen, Bell Beaker has quite a bit more "southern" ancestry than the Corded Ware samples, but I guess it depends on which Corded Ware sample is being used.

When doing an analysis of southern Europeans, using a sample very shifted toward the south and east is going to require a more northern and eastern shifted admixture, and vice versa. You could get a decent fit in something like nmonte that doesn't reflect what actually happened at all. 

@Davef, Tuscans can be modeled as 68% Mycenaean because that's a stand in for lots of Early Neolithic Farmer admixed with some eastern farmer and some steppe. Then the algorythm will pull in other samples to get the total to fit modern Tuscans. It doesn't mean a mass migration of Mycenaeans arrived in Tuscany. On the other hand, I'm sure some Mycenaeans and Minoans did migrate to Italy.

People have to stop being so literal and figure out how to interpret these kinds of results.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I still wonder why people were trying to model Tuscans to begin with...they don't seem relevant to the study.


Because someone is trying, desperately, to prove something about the origins of the Etruscans, and at the same time, to overstimate the Slavic influence in the Greeks. And it's funny, because they are producing in this way contradictory results. The Greeks, if you consider the average, are always more eastern/southern-eastern than Tuscans (the sample usually used for Tuscans are southern Tuscans, who are to the west of Greek Thessalians). As you have noticed, they've tried to involve the Tuscans at all costs in that discussion. But Gravetto-Danubian is a good and capable poster. On others I'm not so sure.

There were Mycenaeans in Italy, especially in southern Italy, but also in central Italy (nortern Lazio and southern Tuscany) and in some ports of the Adriatic coast like Spina or Adria. Mycenaean pottery have been found not only in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, but even in France and Spain (and according to an old book, also in Great Britain and Germany. I don't know if it's accurate). Although it was more often the result of trade rather than settlements.

The Mycenaeans have, without shadow of doubt, played an important role, especially in Italy. Some Italians could even descend from the Mycenaeans, but Mycenaeans were never in such a large number that it could have completely changed the entire genome of the local population.

----------


## davef

> I made the comment because in the analyses I've seen, Bell Beaker has quite a bit more "southern" ancestry than the Corded Ware samples, but I guess it depends on which Corded Ware sample is being used.
> 
> When doing an analysis of southern Europeans, using a sample very shifted toward the south and east is going to require a more northern and eastern shifted admixture, and vice versa. You could get a decent fit in something like nmonte that doesn't reflect what actually happened at all. 
> 
> @Davef, Tuscans can be modeled as 68% Mycenaean because that's a stand in for lots of Early Neolithic Farmer admixed with some eastern farmer and some steppe. Then the algorythm will pull in other samples to get the total to fit modern Tuscans. It doesn't mean a mass migration of Mycenaeans arrived in Tuscany. On the other hand, I'm sure some Mycenaeans and Minoans did migrate to Italy.
> 
> People have to stop being so literal and figure out how to interpret these kinds of results.


Thanks! Not to worry, I wasn't taking it literally. Is d stats just some glorified oracle that bases it's predictions on results from a gedmatch calculator?

----------


## davef

> Because someone is trying, desperately, to prove something about the origins of the Etruscans, and at the same time, to overstimate the Slavic influence in the Greeks. And it's funny, because they are producing in this way contradictory results. The Greeks, if you consider the average, are always more eastern/southern-eastern than Tuscans (the sample usually used for Tuscans are southern Tuscans, who are to the west of Greek Thessalians). As you have noticed, they've tried to involve the Tuscans at all costs in that discussion. But Gravetto-Danubian is a good and capable poster. On others I'm not so sure.
> 
> There were Mycenaeans in Italy, especially in southern Italy, but also in central Italy (nortern Lazio and southern Tuscany) and in some ports of the Adriatic coast like Spina or Adria. Mycenaean pottery have been found not only in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, but even in France and Spain (and according to an old book, also in Great Britain and Germany. I don't know if it's accurate). Although it was more often the result of trade rather than settlements.
> 
> The Mycenaeans have, without shadow of doubt, played an important role, especially in Italy. Some Italians could even descend from the Mycenaeans, but Mycenaeans were never in such a large number that it could have completely changed the entire genome of the local population.


Thanks! Yeah I guess they shoot themselves in the foot using south Tuscans given where they "plot" . 
I appreciate the history lesson with regards to Mycenaeans in Italy, very interesting!

----------


## Angela

> Because someone is trying, desperately, to prove something about the origins of the Etruscans, and at the same time, to overstimate the Slavic influence in the Greeks. And it's funny, because they are producing in this way contradictory results. The Greeks, if you consider the average, are always more eastern/southern-eastern than Tuscans (the sample usually used for Tuscans are southern Tuscans, who are to the west of Greek Thessalians). As you have noticed, they've tried to involve the Tuscans at all costs in that discussion. But Gravetto-Danubian is a good and capable poster. On others I'm not so sure.
> 
> There were Mycenaeans in Italy, especially in southern Italy, but also in central Italy (nortern Lazio and southern Tuscany) and in some ports of the Adriatic coast like Spina or Adria. Mycenaean pottery have been found not only in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, but even in France and Spain (and according to an old book, also in Great Britain and Germany. I don't know if it's accurate). Although it was more often the result of trade rather than settlements.
> 
> The Mycenaeans have, without shadow of doubt, played an important role, especially in Italy. Some Italians could even descend from the Mycenaeans, but Mycenaeans were never in such a large number that it could have completely changed the entire genome of the local population.


I agree with everything you've posted. 

Another thing to consider in the discussion about genetic continuity in terms of modern Greeks is that I think the Greek modern samples used are still overwhelmingly from Thessaly (if the PCA is any guide), and therefore probably higher in "Slavic" ancestry than, say, samples from the Peloponnese. (If the Peloponnese samples and others were included, perhaps someone could correct the record.)

I don't know why, given that the author of the paper on the modern Peloponnese is a cited author here, they didn't do an analysis of the Mycenaean samples they have from the Peloponnese versus modern Greeks strictly from the Peloponnese. Perhaps they didn't do that because the emphasis was on ancient samples?

What people have to understand about programs like nmonte is how sensitive they are to the populations chosen. If you're picking very northern shifted admixture groups, the algorithm may pick a very "southern" population to get to "modern" levels. None of the groups may have actually migrated to the subject area. This makes the program highly susceptible to either just mistakes or abuse.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> What people have to understand about programs like nmonte is how sensitive they are to the populations chosen. If you're picking very northern shifted admixture groups, the algorithm may pick a very "southern" population to get to "modern" levels. None of the groups may have actually migrated to the subject area. This makes the program highly susceptible to either just mistakes or abuse.


Exactly so.

----------


## noman

Guys, is there a way I could figure out, who my ancestors were, just by looking at the ancestry admixtures?

----------


## LeBrok

> Guys, is there a way I could figure out, who my ancestors were, just by looking at the ancestry admixtures?


In the future yes, but currently there has been not much research done of modern and ancient samples in your area. The best bet for you is through 23andMe and alike to find your matches.

----------


## noman

> In the future yes, but currently there has been not much research done of modern and ancient samples in your area. The best bet for you is through 23andMe and alike to find your matches.


I hope to see in the near future. 
I did my test from 23andme. I am fine with it, but I would like to go for Living DNA. A lot of people are appreciating the results.

----------


## Falco

> Because someone is trying, desperately, to prove something about the origins of the Etruscans, and at the same time, to overstimate the Slavic influence in the Greeks. And it's funny, because they are producing in this way contradictory results. The Greeks, if you consider the average, are always more eastern/southern-eastern than Tuscans (the sample usually used for Tuscans are southern Tuscans, who are to the west of Greek Thessalians). As you have noticed, they've tried to involve the Tuscans at all costs in that discussion. But Gravetto-Danubian is a good and capable poster. On others I'm not so sure.
> 
> There were Mycenaeans in Italy, especially in southern Italy, but also in central Italy (nortern Lazio and southern Tuscany) and in some ports of the Adriatic coast like Spina or Adria. Mycenaean pottery have been found not only in Italy, Sicily and Sardinia, but even in France and Spain (and according to an old book, also in Great Britain and Germany. I don't know if it's accurate). Although it was more often the result of trade rather than settlements.
> 
> The Mycenaeans have, without shadow of doubt, played an important role, especially in Italy. Some Italians could even descend from the Mycenaeans, but Mycenaeans were never in such a large number that it could have completely changed the entire genome of the local population.


The palace at the Pantalica Necropolis in Sicily was, at the very least, inspired by the Mycenaeans if not actually built by them.

----------


## Pratt

> Interesting that the Mycenaeans plot so differently here (and on other amateur calcs) compared to the Lazaridis PCA. Also of note is how much more southerly they are compared to Sicilians and south Italians here, whereas in the Lazaridis plot they're very close. Any reason for such contrast?


PCAs aren't calibrated at cardinal points. They are not made to see who is more north or who is more south, which is irrelevant. A PCA, a statistical procedure, is based on components. These components influence the position of the various samples in a PCA, and the samples in turn affect each other, and every calculator is different from the other. Lazaridis uses more sophisticated tools, while ancient samples on gedmatch are often of low quality or of variable quality. Always check how many SNPs are used in the calculator's evaluation. Ancient samples less and less than any modern sample. Anyway Mycenaeans are not much more southerly compared to Sicilians and south Italians in this PCA, Mycenaeans are simply more Neolithic-shifted (Greece-Neolithic or Sardinian-shifted), and the position of the Sardinians, which are a genetically isolated population, still varies greatly from admixture calculator to admixture calculator.





> @Pratt,
> I read somewhere that only one of the Mycenaean samples is of really good quality. Do you happen to know which one it was?



Likely I9041? Based on gedmatch SNPs all the Mycenaeans seem to be of lower quality than Minoans. But I could be wrong.





> Pratt, i was also surprised at the variation. The only two Mycenaeans that group tightly are great friends with the South Italians. As for the one far to the left near the neolithic groups...why is it plotting so far out? I'm beginning to question whether he/she's an actual mycenaean and not just a foreign visitor. I know they are mostly Anatolian, but that one plots too far from the rest.
> 
> Were the Mycenaens this diverse?


You mean Mycenaean I9010? Because it has greater percentage of Mediterranean/EEF.

I would be dishonest if I tell you I know the reason. In forums there are already too many users who have the answers, often wrong, and never ask the right questions. 

Trying to find a common sense answer it may be that the ancient samples, already from the start lower in quality than the modern ones, in the process of converting to gedmatch uploadable formats, may lose even more quality. On gedmatch all these samples tend to have very few components, and this could distort their position in a PCA as well. Especially with the oldest samples, many SNPs had not yet formed, and on gedmatch all these samples have less SNPs evaluated than modern samples.

Another common sense explanation it may be that the ancient samples are different because they have always been so: southern Europe has already been inhabited and the process of assimilation of new migrants (Yamnaya-like or Caucasian-like or whatever) has never been homogeneous, because that is how it happens also in real life. Someone blends with newcomers first and more than others. Others, on the other hand, mingle less, but then, culturally, are assimilated by the dominant culture imposed by new migrants. For a whole picture we need more ancient samples.

----------


## Pratt

> Lets use average Mycenaean. The last, far right numbers.


PCA with the average Mycenaean.







> Can we add Natufian. I have a feeling that Minoans are on a cline exactly between Greek Neolithic and Natufians. If it is true, it would mean that Minoans had nothing to do with Anatolian Chalcolithic/BA, but could be a product of Natufian Neolithic 1/3 and mixed with Later Greek Neolithic 2/3. Though 2/3 Anatolian EN and 1/3 Jordan Neolithic fits the bill too. Anyway, they really look like a mixture of EN populations.


Have you Natufian results?




> Is there a lot of work to flip the first PCA left-right, so the samples will agree geographically with typical PCA charts that we are used to? Will be less confusing for inexperienced peole.


I can try, but I think it's not possible with the kind of software I'm using.

----------


## LeBrok

> Have you Natufian results?


M041601
 Merged

Natufian


Run time
 6.39

S-Indian
 -

Baloch
 -

Caucasian
 13.98

NE-Euro
 -

SE-Asian
 -

Siberian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

Papuan
 0.68

American
 -

Beringian
 -

Mediterranean
 27.39

SW-Asian
 53.62

San
 -

E-African
 4.33

Pygmy
 -

W-African
 -



And Levant Neolithic

M115616
I0867

Levant Neolithic

Run time
9.93

S-Indian
-

Baloch
-

Caucasian
25.97

NE-Euro
-

SE-Asian
0.07

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
0.06

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
32.53

SW-Asian
39.86

San
-

E-African
1.52

Pygmy
-

W-African
-






> I can try, but I think it's not possible with the kind of software I'm using.


How about flipping values (negative/positive) on just Component 1 axis? By the way, what kind of software is this?

----------


## Sile

> PCA with the average Mycenaean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you Natufian results?
> 
> ...


he is a natufian

*Kit Num: M632231*
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

23 April 2013 - Oracle reference population percentages revised.

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1 SW-Asian 34.60
2 Mediterranean 34.48
3 Caucasian 27.79
4 NE-Euro 2.52

----------


## LeBrok

> he is a natufian
> 
> *Kit Num: M632231*
> Threshold of components set to 1.000
> Threshold of method set to 0.25%
> Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
> Gedmatch.Com
> HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle
> This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
> ...


He is Levant/Jordan Neolithic, not real Natufian from Israel or Palestine area. Also this sample is 2,000 years younger than Natufian Culture. But thanks for helping. :)

----------


## Sile

> He is Levant/Jordan Neolithic, not real Natufian from Israel or Palestine area. Also this sample is 2,000 years younger than Natufian Culture. But thanks for helping. :)


what age are you looking for ................the age of this sample is 9573 ± 39ybp which equals 1950AD missus 9573 gives ..........
granted , it is stated/assumed he was from north-east anatolia

----------


## LeBrok

I added Mycenaean, the averaged sample and matadwarf.
Mat fits in Peloponnese and Greece mainland in general very well. Mycenaean is closest to Greek East Islander but is missing a bit of Steppe and even more Levant component SW Asian. It also has way more Med left from Neolithic farmers.

Greeks
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Greece, mainland
15
0
8
31
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Macedonia
5
0
8
31
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Peloponnese
5
0
9
31
24
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

matadworf
1
0
8
29
25
0
0
0
0
0
1
27
10
0
0
0
0

Other mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Mycenaeans
Average
0
2
39
13
0
0
0
0
0
0
36
9
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Greek, island and mainland average
0
8
34
20
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
11
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

----------


## LeBrok

Here is matadwarf among other Peloponnese samples:

Greece, Peloponnese
Population
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

1
Peloponnese
 0.06
 8.61
 34.61
 19.84
 0.87
 0.28

 0.48

 0.29
 24.07
 10.59

 0.28



2
Peloponnese
 8.46
 27.25
 24.97
 -
 0.93

 0.21
 0.40

 28.67
 9.10





3
Peloponnese
 7.60
 32.93
 24.56

 0.15
 0.78
 0.49


 25.20
 8.03


 0.27


4
Peloponnese
 9.62
 28.79
 25.05
 1.31


 0.17

 0.36
 23.63
 11.02





5
Peloponnese
 9.12
 30.48
 24.60




 0.36

 26.44
 8.60

 0.16
 0.25


6
matadworf

 7.62
 29.17
 25.27
 0.13




 0.84
 27.28
 9.65

 0.05






















Greece, Peloponnese
6
0
9
31
24
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

----------


## davef

Peleponese number 1 seems more islander like. Didn't get as much slavic or steppe admixture i suppose.

----------


## matadworf

Thanks for the comparison. BTW three grandparents are from Messinia, one from the Arcadian/Laconian border NE of Sparta (city).

----------


## LeBrok

> Peleponese number 1 seems more islander like. Didn't get as much slavic or steppe admixture i suppose.


 Yes people move around and one can spot outlier everywhere, but surprisingly Greece mainland is very uniform, together with Tosk Albanians. Modern greek movements from Turkey or islands or elsewhere didn't register much of effect, or the effect could have been evenly distributed.

----------


## LeBrok

> Thanks for the comparison. BTW three grandparents are from Messinia, one from the Arcadian/Laconian border NE of Sparta (city).


 You are welcome. I added location to your name in my database.

----------


## Pratt

Harappaworld does not seem to be able to distinguish Minoans from Levant_N and Natufian_merged. Yet, they are not exactly the same. Interesting then how the Bronze Age of the Levant is different from the Neolithic era and more like the modern Levant.

----------


## Bosnian Boss

My results here:

#	Population	Percent
1	NE-Euro	44.54
2	Mediterranean	24.98
3	Caucasian	17.06
4	Baloch	7.05
5	SW-Asian	3.93
6	NE-Asian	1.53

----------


## Pratt

> My results here:
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 NE-Euro 44.54
> 2 Mediterranean 24.98
> 3 Caucasian 17.06
> 4 Baloch 7.05
> 5 SW-Asian 3.93
> 6 NE-Asian 1.53


Thanks for sharing.

How many ethnic groups do you belong? 

Ethnic group _Bosniak, Serb, Croat, Czech, German_

----------


## LeBrok

> Harappaworld does not seem to be able to distinguish Minoans from Levant_N and Natufian_merged. Yet, they are not exactly the same. Interesting then how the Bronze Age of the Levant is different from the Neolithic era and more like the modern Levant.


I think you flipped them on both axes, can you flip them only on component 2 axis. If imposible, leave them the way they were.




They are so different they should not plot that close. Could you check the numbers again please.

M041601
 Merged

Average


Natufian


Greece
Minoan

Run time
 6.39

Total run time
 11.63

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 -

Baloch
 -

Baloch
 -

Caucasian
 13.98

Caucasian
 47.12

NE-Euro
 -

NE-Euro
 1.33

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 -

Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

Papuan
 0.68

Papuan
 -

American
 -

American
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Mediterranean
 27.39

Mediterranean
 38.91

SW-Asian
 53.62

SW-Asian
 12.66

San
 -

San
 -

E-African
 4.33

E-African
 -

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
 -

W-African
 -

W-African
 -

----------


## Bosnian Boss

> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> How many ethnic groups do you belong? 
> 
> Ethnic group _Bosniak, Serb, Croat, Czech, German_


No problem. 

My dad was fully Bosniak, as far as I know, so 50% there. My mom is more mixed, primarily Croat (Bosnian and Croatian) and Serb (Bosnian and Serbian) in different proportions, and more distantly my great-great grandfather was Bavarian German, and another one was most likely Czech or Polish (we haven't been able to confirm either way 100%).

----------


## LeBrok

> No problem. 
> 
> My dad was fully Bosniak, as far as I know, so 50% there. My mom is more mixed, primarily Croat (Bosnian and Croatian) and Serb (Bosnian and Serbian) in different proportions, and more distantly my great-great grandfather was Bavarian German, and another one was most likely Czech or Polish (we haven't been able to confirm either way 100%).


 You are almost indistinguishable from Chroats. Your 1.53% of NE Asian is peculiar though. Usually in Balkans it is found in sub 1%. Could be Turkish in origin, Bulgar or Hun. I have it too, but in Poland it is more likely of Tatar and Mongolian origin.

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African




















Saami
4
1
3
0
59
1
18
3
1
2
4
5
0
0
0
0
3

Finland
6
1
4
3
71
0
6
1
0
0
1
11
3
0
0
0
0

Latvia
5
1
7
7
65
0
1
0
0
0
0
19
0
0
0
0
0

Lithuania
5
1
8
7
62
0
0
0
1
0
1
20
1
0
0
0
0

Russia
Harappa
1
4
13
64
0
3
0
0
1
1
13
0
0
0
0
0

Belorussia
Harappa
1
5
10
64
1
1
0
0
0
0
16
1
0
0
0
0

Ukraine
Harappa
1
6
12
58
0
1
0
0
0
0
17
2
0
0
0
0

Poland
LeBrok
1
7
10
57
1
1
0
0
0
0
22
1
0
0
0
0

Czechy
3
1
9
9
52
0
0
0
0
1
0
26
2
0
0
0
0

Slovenia
3
0
7
15
50
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
3
0
0
0
0

Croatia
8
0
7
17
45
0
1
0
0
0
0
24
4
0
0
0
0

Bosnian Boss

0
7
17
45
0
0
2
0
0
0
25
4
0
0
0
0

Bosnia
2
0
9
21
41
0
1
0
0
1
0
23
5
0
0
0
0

Serbia
1
0
8
20
40
0
1
0
0
1
0
27
4
0
0
0
0

Austria
2
0
7
15
43
1
0
0
0
0
0
30
4
0
0
0
0

Hungary
3
0
9
15
47
0
1
0
0
1
0
25
2
0
0
0
0

Romania
5
0
8
23
35
1
1
0
0
0
0
25
6
0
0
0
0

Bulgaria
5
0
9
25
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
7
0
0
0
0

Macedonia
selectivememri
0
6
25
35
0
1
0
0
0
1
25
7
0
0
0
0

Albania
17
0
6
28
29
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
8
0
0
0
0

Albania, Tosk
7
0
7
30
25
0
0
0
0
0
0
27
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Mainland
5
0
7
30
26
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
9
0
0
0
0

Greece, Ionian
2
0
9
34
18
0
0
0
0
0
0
26
12
0
0
0
0

Greek, Islands, East
13
0
9
38
15
0
0
0
0
0
0
23
14
0
0
0
0

Crete
5
0
8
39
15
0
0
1
0
0
0
21
14
0
0
0
0

Cyprus
4
1
10
44
6
1
0
0
0
0
0
20
17
0
0
0
0

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African

Ashkenazi
11
0
7
33
16
0
0
0
0
0
0
25
15
0
1
0
0

Sephardi, Tunisia
6
1
7
33
8
0
0
0
0
0
0
24
22
0
3
0
1

Turkey
4
1
15
44
11
0
4
3
0
0
1
11
9
0
0
0
0

Armenia
7
1
20
52
3
0
0
0
0
0
0
10
13
0
0
0
0

Georgia
6
0
21
58
7
0
1
0
0
0
0
5
6
0
0
0
0

Lebanon
7
0
11
45
2
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
24
0
1
0
0

Samaritans
3
0
7
45
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
15
31
0
2
0
0

Palestine
Harappa
1
7
39
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
12
31
0
5
0
2

Iran
Harappa
4
27
40
5
1
2
1
1
0
1
5
13
0
0
0
0

----------


## Pratt

> Thanks! Not to worry, I wasn't taking it literally. Is d stats just some glorified oracle that bases it's predictions on results from a gedmatch calculator?


Those predictions you see on anthrogenica are mostly nMonte based on Global 10. nMonte is a R script that runs a Monte Carlo simulation, it does not analyze the genome, it's Statistics and Probability. nMonte is extremely malleable but its results are also very manipulable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method

You can play a lot with nMonte.

I’ve used Mycenaean average as a fixed population reference, and from time to time I added a single modern ethnicity. 3 for Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Romania, Poland), 3 for Western Europe (French_East, England_Kent, Irish), 1 for Northern Europe (Swedish). All the averages are from Global 10. 

These are the results for Greeks, Italian_Tuscan, Italian_Bergamo, and Italian_South. Greeks (Greek average) on Global 10 and Basal 7 are Northern Greeks from Greek Macedonia.

Unfortunately there aren't other Greek samples (neither mainlanders nor islanders) on Gobal 10 except the current sample from Thessaloniki.


*Eastern Europe
*

*A) Mycenaean + Bulgarian* 


1- Greek:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Bulgarian
0.01895134 0.01912255


[1] "distance%=0.2851 / distance=0.002851"

* Greek*

*Mycenaean 50.2*
*Bulgarian 49.8*


2- Italian_Tuscan:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Bulgarian Mycenaean
0.01752737 0.02128371

[1]"distance%=0.4699 / distance=0.004699"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Bulgarian 55.1*
*Mycenaean 44.9


*3- Italian_Bergamo:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Bulgarian Mycenaean 
0.01275418 0.03002748 


[1] "distance%=0.903 / distance=0.00903"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*Bulgarian 76.0*
*Mycenaean 23.9


*4-Italian_South:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Bulgarian 
0.01165325 0.03379267 


[1] "distance%=1.0296 / distance=0.010296"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 85.5*
*Bulgarian 14.5*


5 - Italian_CentralSicilian:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Bulgarian 

[1] "distance%=0.8053 / distance=0.008053"

* Italian_CentralSicilian*

*Mycenaean 84.5*
*Bulgarian 15.4*



*B) Mycenaean + Romanian*


1- Greek:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Romanian Mycenaean
0.01888201 0.01895134

[1] "distance%=0.2883 / distance=0.002883"

* Greek

Romanian 50.1
Mycenaean 49.9*


2- Italian_Tuscan:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Romanian Mycenaean
0.01682399 0.02128371

[1] "distance%=0.3651 / distance=0.003651"

*
Italian_Tuscan

Romanian 56.1
Mycenaean 43.9
*

3- Italian_Bergamo:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Romanian Mycenaean
0.01198668 0.03002748

[1] "distance%=0.8391 / distance=0.008391"

* Italian_Bergamo

Romanian 77.1
Mycenaean 22.9
*

4- Italian_South:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Romanian 
0.01165325 0.03310893 


[1] "distance%=1.0077 / distance=0.010077"

* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 84.3*
*Romanian 15.7*


5- Italian_CentralSicilian:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Romanian 
0.009930509 0.032354286 


[1] "distance%=0.79 / distance=0.0079"

* Italian_CentralSicilian*

*Mycenaean 83.9*
*Romanian 16.1*



*C) Mycenaean + Polish* 


1- Greek:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Polish
0.01895134 0.04971803


1] "distance%=0.5474 / distance=0.005474"

* Greek

Mycenaean 73.2
Polish 26.9
*

2- Italian_Tuscan:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Polish 
0.02128371 0.04745861 


[1] "distance%=0.5853 / distance=0.005853"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Mycenaean 69.7*
*Polish 30.3*



3- Italian_Bergamo:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Polish 
0.03002748 0.03876120 


[1] "distance%=0.6419 / distance=0.006419"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*Mycenaean 56.6*
*Polish 43.4*


4- Italian_South:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Polish 
0.01165325 0.06411999 


[1] "distance%=1.0808 / distance=0.010808"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 93.55*
*Polish 6.45*


5- Italian_CentralSicilian:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES" 
Mycenaean Polish 
0.009930509 0.063157290 


[1] "distance%=0.8587 / distance=0.008587"


* Italian_CentralSicilian

Mycenaean 92.6
Polish 7.4
*

*Western Europe*

*
D) Mycenaean + French_East


*1- Greek:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean French_East 
0.01895134 0.02993343 


[1] "distance%=0.666 / distance=0.00666"


* Greek*

*Mycenaean 62.2*
*French_East 37.8


*2- Italian_Tuscan:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean French_East 
0.02128371 0.02748697 


[1] "distance%=0.6585 / distance=0.006585"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Mycenaean 56.9*
*French_East 43.1


*3- Italian_Bergamo:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
French_East Mycenaean 
0.01815305 0.03002748 


[1] "distance%=0.5284 / distance=0.005284"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*French_East 63*
*Mycenaean 37*


4-Italian_South:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean French_East 
0.01165325 0.04431207 


[1] "distance%=1.095 / distance=0.01095"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 91.5*
*French_East 8.5*



5 - Italian_CentralSicilian:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean French_East 
0.009930509 0.043130787 


[1] "distance%=0.8752 / distance=0.008752"


* Italian_CentralSicilian*

*Mycenaean 90*
*French_East 10*

*

E) Mycenaean + England_Kent


*1- Greek:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean English_Kent 
0.01895134 0.03793397 


[1] "distance%=0.5471 / distance=0.005471"


* Greek*

*Mycenaean 67.4*
*English_Kent 32.6


*2- Italian_Tuscan:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean English_Kent 
0.02128371 0.03576606 


[1] "distance%=0.5996 / distance=0.005996"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Mycenaean 63.3*
*English_Kent 36.7
*

3- Italian_Bergamo:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
English_Kent Mycenaean 
0.02716300 0.03002748 


[1] "distance%=0.6516 / distance=0.006516"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*English_Kent 52.6*
*Mycenaean 47.4*


4-Italian_South:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean English_Kent 
0.01165325 0.05255509 


[1] "distance%=1.0847 / distance=0.010847"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 92.35*
*English_Kent 7.65*


5 - Italian_CentralSicilian:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean English_Kent 
0.009930509 0.051521945 


[1] "distance%=0.8643 / distance=0.008643"


* Italian_CentralSicilian*

*Mycenaean 91.2*
*English_Kent 8.8*

*
F)* *Mycenaean + Irish

*
1- Greek:average[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Irish 
0.01895134 0.04114518 

[1] "distance%=0.4333 / distance=0.004333"


* Greek*

*Mycenaean 68.9*
*Irish 31.1
*

2- Italian_Tuscan:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Irish 
0.02128371 0.03905056 


[1] "distance%=0.5137 / distance=0.005137"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Mycenaean 65.2*
*Irish 34.8


*3- Italian_Bergamo:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Irish 
0.03002748 0.03097496 


[1] "distance%=0.7017 / distance=0.007017"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*Mycenaean 50.8*
*Irish 49.2


*4-Italian_South:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Irish 
0.01165325 0.05559131 


[1] "distance%=1.062 / distance=0.01062"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 91.9*
*Irish 8.1*



5 - Italian_CentralSicilian:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Irish 
0.009930509 0.054719330 


[1] "distance%=0.8401 / distance=0.008401"


* Italian_CentralSicilian*

*Mycenaean 91.1*
*Irish 8.9*


*
Northern Europe


**G) Mycenaean + Swedish


*1- Greek:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Swedish 
0.01895134 0.04555579 


[1] "distance%=0.5702 / distance=0.005702"


* Greek*

*Mycenaean 71.5*
*Swedish 28.6


*2- Italian_Tuscan:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Swedish 
0.02128371 0.04307875 


[1] "distance%=0.554 / distance=0.00554"


* Italian_Tuscan*

*Mycenaean 67.5*
*Swedish 32.5*


3- Italian_Bergamo:average


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Swedish 
0.03002748 0.03426947 


[1] "distance%=0.5707 / distance=0.005707"


* Italian_Bergamo*

*Mycenaean 53.4*
*Swedish 46.6

*
4-Italian_South:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Swedish 
0.01165325 0.05958714 


[1] "distance%=1.0685 / distance=0.010685"


* Italian_South*

*Mycenaean 92.65*
*Swedish 7.35


*5 - Italian_CentralSicilian:average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
Mycenaean Swedish 
0.009930509 0.058629904 


[1] "distance%=0.8429 / distance=0.008429"


*Italian_CentralSicilian

Mycenaean 91.7
Swedish 8.3*

----------


## davef

Very interesting Pratt, thanks!

----------


## Pratt

> I think you flipped them on both axes, can you flip them only on component 2 axis. If imposible, leave them the way they were. They are so different they should not plot that close. Could you check the numbers again please.


I've inverted the two principal components, PC2 on X axis, PC1 on Y axis. 

The numbers seem correct (I had already checked them). But tomorrow morning I check them again.

----------


## LeBrok

> I've inverted the two principal components, PC2 on X axis, PC1 on Y axis. 
> 
> The numbers seem correct (I had already checked them). But tomorrow morning I check them again.


This is the common direction used on PCA, try to flip it these directions. Europe to the left, near east to the right, Neolithic South.

----------


## davef

So I guess people enjoy messing with nMonte bc they either don't understand it or want to show off how "group x" they are? If it doesn't go by actual genes I fail to see how useful it is.

----------


## ABC123

*Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
7.24

Caucasian
21.22

NE-Euro
38.63

SE-Asian
0.36

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
0.70

Papuan
0.23

American
-

Beringian
0.70

Mediterranean
25.16

SW-Asian
5.69

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-


*

----------


## ABC123

Population 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	7.24
Caucasian	21.22
NE-Euro	38.63
SE-Asian	0.36
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	0.70
Papuan	0.23
American	- 
Beringian	0.70
Mediterranean	25.16
SW-Asian	5.69
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## LeBrok

> Population 
> S-Indian - 
> Baloch 7.24
> Caucasian 21.22
> NE-Euro 38.63
> SE-Asian 0.36
> Siberian - 
> NE-Asian 0.70
> Papuan 0.23
> ...


You fit anywhere in central Balkans: Bosnia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria or even Macedonia. Perhaps you are mixed, because I can't pinpoint your exact ethnicity. Your caucasian is more like Bosna-Serbia. Your NE Euro and SW Asian sits between Serbia and Bulgaria. Your Mediterranean admixture is good for all central Balkans.
Definitely, not from Madagascar. ;)

----------


## ABC123

> You fit anywhere in central Balkans: Bosnia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria or even Macedonia. Perhaps you are mixed, because I can't pinpoint your exact ethnicity. Your caucasian is more like Bosna-Serbia. Your NE Euro and SW Asian sits between Serbia and Bulgaria. Your Mediterranean admixture is good for all central Balkans.
> Definitely, not from Madagascar. ;)


I am northwest romanian. 

About the other results what can you say? 

Thanks!

----------


## Pax Augusta

Rob/Gravetto performed this interesting global10/basal rich7 pca with all the main ancient samples


Italy North = Italian_Bergamo:HGDP

Tuscan = Italian_Tuscan:NA

Greek = Greek:GREEKGRALPOP = Greek Thessaloniki (more north you can't go in Greece)

East Sicily = Italian_Sicilian_East:EastSicilian

Sth Italy = Italian_South:SouthItalian

Sardinian = Sardinian:HGDP

----------


## Angela

Too bad that the only South Italian sample everyone seems to be using is that strange one that has terrible FST with virtually everyone.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Too bad that the only South Italian sample everyone seems to be using is that strange one that has terrible FST with virtually everyone.


In fact. What is the origin of that sample? 

Strange also that the Thessaloniki sample is used to represent all the Greeks; it is like a sample from Treviso was used for all Italians.

----------


## Angela

> In fact. What is the origin of that sample? 
> 
> Strange also that the Thessaloniki sample is used to represent all the Greeks; it is like a sample from Treviso was used for all Italians.


I e-mailed them to ask but they wouldn't tell me out of privacy concerns. If I remember correctly they said it was on the Ionian side. I should probably e-mail them again and tell them how strangely this sample behaves, and that they might be using a highly drifted and not very representative sample for South Italians. 

I've been complaining about the samples used for some of these countries for years, not that anyone cares. In addition to the actually Thessalonian sample used for Greece (which is why it plots so close to Toscana), there's the half Catalan sample used for Iberia. If you listen to the Catalans, they're in no way Iberians, and that includes genetically! :)

Hold on. I see that there's no Iberian sample in this particular plot, only one labeled Catalan. If it's the oft used academic sample, it's actually half Catalan. Generally, it's pretty clear to me that Iberians list north not because of additional "Celtic", given that they have so little "steppe" ancestry, but because they absorbed a bit more WHG than people in the southeast. 

These researchers seem to have blind spots that won't be dislodged by "amateurs" e-mailing them. Take, for example, the Hellenthal/Busby supposed analysis of "recent" dna absorption. I think a lot of it is wrong or at least questionable. For example, I'm not sure they can tell if there was an inflow of more southeastern, Greek like (farmer heavy) dna into more central Euro type people in Italy after the fall of Rome, or the opposite, i.e. "Celtic", "Lombard" admixture into a much more "Mediterranean" population, which they date too late because as is always the case with the program they use, it picks up only the date of the latest admixture.

----------


## curiouscat

> I e-mailed them to ask but they wouldn't tell me out of privacy concerns. If I remember correctly they said it was on the Ionian side. I should probably e-mail them again and tell them how strangely this sample behaves, and that they might be using a highly drifted and not very representative sample for South Italians. 
> 
> I've been complaining about the samples used for some of these countries for years, not that anyone cares. In addition to the actually Thessalonian sample used for Greece (which is why it plots so close to Toscana), there's the half Catalan sample used for Iberia. If you listen to the Catalans, they're in no way Iberians, and that includes genetically! :)
> 
> Hold on. I see that there's no Iberian sample in this particular plot, only one labeled Catalan. If it's the oft used academic sample, it's actually half Catalan. Generally, it's pretty clear to me that Iberians list north not because of additional "Celtic", given that they have so little "steppe" ancestry, but because they absorbed a bit more WHG than people in the southeast. 
> 
> These researchers seem to have blind spots that won't be dislodged by "amateurs" e-mailing them. Take, for example, the Hellenthal/Busby supposed analysis of "recent" dna absorption. I think a lot of it is wrong or at least questionable. For example, I'm not sure they can tell if there was an inflow of more southeastern, Greek like (farmer heavy) dna into more central Euro type people in Italy after the fall of Rome, or the opposite, i.e. "Celtic", "Lombard" admixture into a much more "Mediterranean" population, which they date too late because as is always the case with the program they use, it picks up only the date of the latest admixture.


Iberian are genetically homogeneous, there's been millions of Northern Spaniards who migrated to Andalusia, because the Moors has been expelled, so there's virtually no genetic difference between Northern and Southern Spaniards.

----------


## curiouscat

> Rob/Gravetto performed this interesting global10/basal rich7 pca with all the main ancient samples
> 
> 
> Italy North = Italian_Bergamo:HGDP
> 
> Tuscan = Italian_Tuscan:NA
> 
> Greek = Greek:GREEKGRALPOP = Greek Thessaloniki (more north you can't go in Greece)
> 
> ...


So South Italians almost make it halfway between Cypriots and Thessalonian Greeks. Where's their Germanic influence? That should make them more Northward towards Swiss or Austrians.

----------


## noman

Is someone updating the calculator? Last I checked, Zack, author of this calculator, has stopped working on it.

----------


## Pratt

> This is the common direction used on PCA, try to flip it these directions. Europe to the left, near east to the right, Neolithic South.


I've tried but not possible with the soft I'm using. I'm learning a new statistical software package, I hope to succeed within a very short time.

----------


## Valerius

S-Indian
0.21

Baloch
6.85

Caucasian
22.33

NE-Euro
36.58

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.88

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.82

American
0.90

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
24.78

SW-Asian
6.65



Pretty normal for the region I believe, still not sure what Caucasus stands for though.

----------


## Pratt

> So I guess people enjoy messing with nMonte bc they either don't understand it or want to show off how "group x" they are? If it doesn't go by actual genes I fail to see how useful it is.


Yes, more or less. Often results are groundless, it is who uses it to decide which models to use, nMonte alone doesn't determine which are the best samples.

----------


## LeBrok

> S-Indian
> 0.21
> 
> Baloch
> 6.85
> 
> Caucasian
> 22.33
> 
> ...


Yes, quite normal, though you plot closer to average Romanian than Bulgarian.

Caucasian element came from CHG, Anatolian and Iranian Farmers. It was also reintroduced in Europe by Anatolian BA.

----------


## LeBrok

> I've tried but not possible with the soft I'm using. I'm learning a new statistical software package, I hope to succeed within a very short time.


Can't wait. :)

----------


## Wheal

Here is my father's 
Attachment 9295

----------


## LeBrok

> Here is my father's 
> Attachment 9295


Typical NW European, no surprise here. You don't fit any country exactly, though the closest one country fit is (according to my quick eyeballing) North Germany, but with a bit more of EEF/Farmer, perhaps due to some French or South German influence. I don't have all the countries yet in my database, so maybe Belgium would be your father's best one country fit?

----------


## Wheal

His G Grandfather was born in Baden, His Grandfather Ravensburg. Family is untraceable in Germany. I think it's possible that his name was Germanized from a French word meaning butcher IF the last name was not changed when them migrated. Several of the brothers were avoiding German draft in late 1800's and one was found in Southern Illinois and taken back to Germany. Stories about their migration are terribly wrong with their ages... who they came with .... (Age 6 and started a butcher business... I think not!)

----------


## Wheal

Attachment 9296

This is mom. I know that her paternal line is German, French, Irish, Scot... mother's line is German, Swedish

----------


## LeBrok

> His G Grandfather was born in Baden, His Grandfather Ravensburg. Family is untraceable in Germany. I think it's possible that his name was Germanized from a French word meaning butcher IF the last name was not changed when them migrated. Several of the brothers were avoiding *German draft in late 1800's and one was found in Southern Illinois and taken back to Germany.*  Stories about their migration are terribly wrong with their ages... who they came with .... (Age 6 and started a butcher business... I think not!)


 Wow, that's incredible. Bismarck had really long arms!

----------


## LeBrok

> Attachment 9296
> 
> This is mom. I know that her paternal line is German, French, Irish, Scot... mother's line is German, Swedish


Can't open the attachment. Try to copy text of admixtures from Gedmatch and past like text directly to your post.

----------


## Wheal

Population


S-Indian
0.41

Baloch
8.71

Caucasian
11.36

NE-Euro
47.00

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
29.20

SW-Asian
3.33

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-












I would imagine the Mediterranean again came from the German, road blocks again for Germany in two lines

----------


## LeBrok

> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> 0.41
> 
> Baloch
> 8.71
> 
> ...


The best fit is South Germany, but with higher NE Euro, the latter complements of Irish and Scots probably. Higher NE Euro came with Steppe invasion of Indo Europeans, and some from West Hunter Gatherers. Neolithic farmers were high in Med, Caucasian and SW Asian, but WHG also carried some Med but no SW Asian nor Caucasian.

----------


## Bergin

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
6.78

Caucasian
26.96

NE-Euro
27.32

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
1.20

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
26.44

SW-Asian
11.00

San
0.30

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

----------


## LeBrok

> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> -
> 
> Baloch
> 6.78
> 
> ...


I would say Gheg Albanian, though your SW Asian is higher than anyone from my database. Perhaps from same area or family as Trojet?

----------


## Bergin

Thanks LeBrok. 
Don't know where Trojet is from...

I am 50-50 Gheg-Tosk.
Cool, I have some more sw asian genes. I don'k know if Rhodes counts, but I know that one of my ggggmother was from there.

----------


## LeBrok

> Thanks LeBrok. 
> Don't know where Trojet is from...
> 
> I am 50-50 Gheg-Tosk.
> Cool, I have some more sw asian genes. I don'k know if Rhodes counts, but I know that one of my ggggmother was from there.


 Yes, Rhodes, Greek East Islands in General, definitely would help SW Asian.

----------


## Wheal

Out of curiosity I re-ran my mother's using phased data from my brother's dna for comparison..

Population 
S-Indian	0.29
Baloch	8.84
Caucasian	9.93
NE-Euro	48.78
SE-Asian	- 
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	0.31
American	- 
Beringian	- 
Mediterranean	28.78
SW-Asian	3.08
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## LeBrok

> Out of curiosity I re-ran my mother's using phased data from my brother's dna for comparison..
> 
> Population 
> S-Indian 0.29
> Baloch 8.84
> Caucasian 9.93
> NE-Euro 48.78
> SE-Asian - 
> Siberian - 
> ...


 No it looks a bit more North European shifted.

----------


## Wheal

> No it looks a bit more North European shifted.


As far as I can tell, that would be more accurate. North Eastern European, Scandinavia, Sweden, at least for origination of mtDNA. I found the hint of a couple of dropped "vons" on the German.

----------


## Thracian88

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
28.20

2
NE-Euro
25.43

3
Mediterranean
19.96

4
Baloch
11.38

5
SW-Asian
8.36

6
S-Indian
2.09

7
Siberian
1.90

8
Beringian
1.68

----------


## LeBrok

> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> Caucasian
> 28.20
> 
> 2
> ...


You do look like Bulgarian-Turkish mix. The closest match for you, that I have in my database, is with eupedia member Boreas, he is from Turkey. The only difference is that he has much higher Siberian and NE Asian, and you have somewhat higher NE Euro. Though you might belong to the same root community, because your both admixtures are alike, but quite different than average person from Turkey or Bulgaria.

----------


## matadworf

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
29.17

2
Mediterranean
27.28

3
NE-Euro
25.27

4
SW-Asian
9.65

5
Baloch
7.62

6
Beringian
0.84

7
SE-Asian
0.13

8
E-African
0.05

----------


## Johane Derite

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
6.04

Caucasian
31.34

NE-Euro
28.46

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
0.56

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
26.68

SW-Asian
6.92

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-




*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
31.34

2
NE-Euro
28.46

3
Mediterranean
26.68

4
SW-Asian
6.92

5
Baloch
6.04

6
Papuan
0.56


*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
tuscan (1000genomes)
6.85

2
tuscan (hgdp)
7.16

3
tuscan (hapmap)
7.69

4
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
8.12



Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 tuscan_1000genomes @ 7.406848
2 tuscan_hgdp @ 7.741580
3 tuscan_hapmap @ 8.312163
4 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 8.894974

----------


## LeBrok

> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> Caucasian
> 29.17
> 
> 2
> ...


You are very typical Greek from mainland, probably north mainland. Though there are not big differences between mainland of any place. Mainland is well mixed through.

----------


## LeBrok

> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> -
> 
> Baloch
> 6.04
> 
> ...


You are well mixed Albanian. It is impossible to determine if you are Tosk or Gegh from your admixtures.

----------


## Dibran

> You are well mixed Albanian. It is impossible to determine if you are Tosk or Gegh from your admixtures.


Do you still have me and my fathers? I recently had my mom test too. Shes a northern Albanian with supposed origin from a Southern Albanian Despot 400 years ago. Southern influence probably washed out.

*Mom:*




*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Mediterranean
27.87

2
Caucasian
27.74

3
NE-Euro
27.61

4
SW-Asian
8.76

5
Baloch
7.35

6
Beringian
0.55

7
E-African
0.12



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
tuscan (1000genomes)
5.65

2
tuscan (hgdp)
5.84

3
tuscan (hapmap)
6.28

4
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
9.43

5
romanian-a (behar)
9.81




*My new AncestryDNA test:*

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
29.64

2
Caucasian
29.1

3
NE-Euro
27.2

4
SW-Asian
7.99

5
Baloch
5.65

6
Siberian
0.33

7
Beringian
0.09



Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
tuscan (1000genomes)
3.74

2
tuscan (hgdp)
3.97

3
tuscan (hapmap)
4.42

4
italian (hgdp)
9.84

5
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
10.29


*

----------


## Johane Derite

> You are well mixed Albanian. It is impossible to determine if you are Tosk or Gegh from your admixtures.


Interesting. I have no known Tosk heritage on either side of the family. How do Tosk and Gheg results differ generally?

----------


## matadworf

> You are very typical Greek from mainland, probably north mainland. Though there are not big differences between mainland of any place. Mainland is well mixed through.


75% Messinian, 25% Arcadian (Peloponnese). Yes I agree that there isn't much variation between North and South. I tend to cluster near Thessaly and/or Epirus. Do you think that there is any variation in the Peloponnese or just not enough data. Thanks!

----------


## LeBrok

> Interesting. I have no known Tosk heritage on either side of the family. How do Tosk and Gheg results differ generally?


Unfortunately I didn't have enough Gheg samples to make it happen. On first page of this thread you'll see Tosk admixtures and Albanian Average. If someone knows at least 5 Gheg kit numbers from GedMatch, please post them here.

----------


## LeBrok

> 75% Messinian, 25% Arcadian (Peloponnese). Yes I agree that there isn't much variation between North and South. I tend to cluster near Thessaly and/or Epirus. Do you think that there is any variation in the Peloponnese or just not enough data. Thanks!


 All the research points to the fact that there is not much variation. It will be interesting to know if it was like this since antiquity or just last few hundred years of dynamic greek history in action.
Check page 1 for various Greek regions.

----------


## IronSide

> You don't really fit any population in my database well. Saudi tribes might be varied genetically.
> Saudi Arabia
> Population
> S-Indian
> Baloch
> Caucasian
> NE-Euro
> SE-Asian
> Siberian
> ...


You were right, Saudi tribes are varied genetically, after going through many Saudi samples on Gedmatch I saw that they don't fit the "Saudi" sample collected by Behar reported in this calculator, that seems to have been one group of tribes in the central region that are historically related, that is they were one tribe originally, I know that from Arab Genealogy books, I guess it could be considered as evidence of their claimed heritage.

My tribe is descended from the Azd group, a Yemeni tribe originally, residents in the Kingdom of Sheba, according to legend, they migrated after the destruction of the Great Dam of Ma'rib, spreading north and east.

In the Bible, Sheba is the son of Jokshan the son of Abraham through his third wife Keturah(possibly meaning "incense"), Jokshan is said to have migrated to Arabia Felix.



another evidence for a northern origin is language



> It was originally thought that all four members of this group were dialects of one Old South Arabian language, but in the mid-twentieth century Beeston finally proved that they did in fact constitute independent languages.[6] The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use *which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite/Hebrew in a Central Semitic group*;[7] leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabian and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.


Something I didn't provide when I shared my results is how the calculator models me, my cluster of Azd tribes are close genetically, best modelled as a mixture of Levantine and Bedouin.

1 yemen-jew (behar) 10.1
2 yemenese (behar) 13.08
3 egyptian (behar) 13.74
4 bedouin (hgdp) 14.15
5 egypt (henn2012) 14.52
6 palestinian (hgdp) 14.87
7 saudi (behar) 15.02
8 jordanian (behar) 16.97
9 qatari (henn2012) 17.68
10 samaritian (behar) 20.43
11 syrian (behar) 20.83
12 palestinian (harappa) 21.41
13 lebanese (behar) 22.34
14 iraqi-arab (harappa) 24.63
15 lebanese-muslim (haber) 25.81
16 libya (henn2012) 26.4
17 lebanese-christian (haber) 26.51
18 iraq-jew (behar) 27.57
19 lebanese-druze (haber) 28.29
20 iraqi-mandaean (harappa) 29.01

51.3% bedouin (hgdp) + 48.7% palestinian (hgdp) @ 3.2
54.8% bedouin (hgdp) + 45.2% jordanian (behar) @ 3.38
65.1% bedouin (hgdp) + 34.9% lebanese-muslim (haber) @ 3.42
67.2% bedouin (hgdp) + 32.8% lebanese-druze (haber) @ 3.53
65.7% bedouin (hgdp) + 34.3% lebanese-christian (haber) @ 3.53
61.7% bedouin (hgdp) + 38.3% lebanese (behar) @ 3.73
53.3% saudi (behar) + 46.7% jordanian (behar) @ 4
60.1% bedouin (hgdp) + 39.9% syrian (behar) @ 4.09
50.3% Palestinian + 49.7% saudi (behar) @ 4.21
60.9% bedouin (hgdp) + 39.1% palestinian (harappa) @ 4.26
70.1% bedouin (hgdp) + 29.9% cypriot (behar) @ 4.4
60.4% saudi (behar) + 39.6% lebanese (behar) @ 4.57
71.8% bedouin (hgdp) + 28.2% azerbaijan-jew @ 4.59
70.1% bedouin (hgdp) + 29.9% georgia-jew (behar) @ 4.59
59.8% bedouin (hgdp) + 40.2% samaritian (behar) @ 4.62
75.3% bedouin (hgdp) + 24.7% armenian (behar) @ 4.64
71% bedouin (hgdp) + 29% druze (hgdp) @ 4.79
67.1% bedouin (hgdp) + 32.9% iraq-jew (behar) @ 4.79
71.4% bedouin (hgdp) + 28.6% assyrian (harappa) @ 4.86
51% egypt + 49% saudi (behar) @ 4.89

----------


## Thracian88

> You do look like Bulgarian-Turkish mix. The closest match for you, that I have in my database, is with eupedia member Boreas, he is from Turkey. The only difference is that he has much higher Siberian and NE Asian, and you have somewhat higher NE Euro. Though you might belong to the same root community, because your both admixtures are alike, but quite different than average person from Turkey or Bulgaria.


Thank you so much. However, I feel more confused. I found the MDLP k23b and it has more population than HarappaWorld (620 vs 377). On the other hand, the results that I saw were meaningful almost every people. So, I decided to run it. My results are;

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
31.87

2
European_Early_Farmers
19.12

3
European_Hunters_Gatherers
18.5

4
Near_East
9.7

5
South_Central_Asian
8.85

6
South_Indian
3.51

7
Ancestral_Altaic
3.46

8
East_Siberian
1.7

9
Arctic
1.47

10
South_East_Asian
0.69

11
Amerindian
0.44

12
North_African
0.33

13
Australoid
0.27

14
Khoisan
0.08



*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Serb_Serbia ( )
9.29

2
Montenegrian ( )
9.35

3
Bulgarian ( )
9.98

4
Serb_BH ( )
10.04

5
Croat ( )
10.32

6
Macedonian ( )
10.34

7
Bosnian ( )
10.35

8
Sicilian_West ( )
10.45

9
Hungarian_Budapest ( )
10.65

10
Croat_BH ( )
11.04

11
Slovenian ( )
11.35

12
Romanian ( )
11.4

13
Greek_Northwest ( )
11.64

14
Hungarian ( )
11.69

15
Czech ( )
11.93

16
Ashkenazi_Jew ( )
12.26

17
Slovak ( )
13.01

18
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
13.07

19
Sicilian_Agrigento ( )
13.14

20
Austrian ( )
13.14



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance

1

82.2%
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )

17.8%
Burusho ( )

4.18

2

57.2%
Belgian ( )

42.8%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.4

3

65%
German-Volga ( )

35%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.41

4

59.3%
Belgian ( )

40.7%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.45

5

56%
Irish ( )
+
44%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.53

6

57.5%
Frisian ( )
+
42.5%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.55

7

52.6%
Norwegian_West ( )
+
47.4%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.57

8

55%
English_Kent_GBR ( )
+
45%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.61

9

64.9%
South_German ( )
+
35.1%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.61

10

53.7%
Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( )
+
46.3%
Druze ( )

4.62

11

62.9%
South_German ( )
+
37.1%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.63

12

59.8%
Dutch ( )
+
40.2%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.63

13

67%
German-Volga ( )
+
33%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.63

14

58.1%
South_German ( )
+
41.9%
Iraqi_Chaldean ( )

4.64

15

80.9%
Greek_Thessaly ( )
+
19.1%
Burusho ( )

4.64

16

60.3%
German-Volga ( )
+
39.7%
Iraqi_Chaldean ( )

4.65

17

83.9%
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
+
16.1%
Sindhi ( )

4.66

18

56.1%
Irish ( )
+
43.9%
Lebanese_Druze ( )

4.66

19

50.5%
Norwegian_West ( )
+
49.5%
Iraqi_Jew ( )

4.7

20

55.4%
North_European ( )
+
44.6%
Jew_Tat ( )

4.7



*I also ran interpretome and my Asian Ancestry results are matching with my results from family finder and Gedmacth MDLP k23b. Unfortunately I can not share a link because I had to write minimum 10 posts (I tried couple times). According to Interpretome my Asian Ancestry is close to Burusho and Pathan people. As you see in #1 and #15 my results are matching with both FTDNA and Interpretome.

----------


## LeBrok

> You were right, Saudi tribes are varied genetically, after going through many Saudi samples on Gedmatch I saw that they don't fit the "Saudi" sample collected by Behar reported in this calculator, that seems to have been one group of tribes in the central region that are historically related, that is they were one tribe originally, I know that from Arab Genealogy books, I guess it could be considered as evidence of their claimed heritage.
> 
> My tribe is descended from the Azd group, a Yemeni tribe originally, residents in the Kingdom of Sheba, according to legend, they migrated after the destruction of the Great Dam of Ma'rib, spreading north and east.
> 
> In the Bible, Sheba is the son of Jokshan the son of Abraham through his third wife Keturah(possibly meaning "incense"), Jokshan is said to have migrated to Arabia Felix.
> 
> 
> 
> another evidence for a northern origin is language
> ...


Yep, very interesting. Can you somehow use GedMatch search engine and find people of various Arab tribes and get their kit numbers. Perhaps we will be able to build database for different tribes? Even if we start with 2-3 peeps per tribe.

----------


## LeBrok

> Thank you so much. However, I feel more confused. I found the MDLP k23b and it has more population than HarappaWorld (620 vs 377). On the other hand, the results that I saw were meaningful almost every people. So, I decided to run it. My results are;
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> Caucasian
> 31.87
> ...


 Because you are a mix of two ethnicities the calculators always will be confused and give you the closest approximations, but not direct/close matches. 
Serb match at distance 9, is still pretty far from close match, even though it is the closest match to any group. The ethnic Serb distance to Serb_Serbia mode in this dataset will show 2 or 3. For example I'm Polish, and it well give me distance to polish at 3 and few positions lower Hungarian at 9. So for you Serbian at 9 is the closest to any one ethnic population, because your dna is mixed that way, and because this simple database is confused and very imperfect.

IIRC Boreas parents, one was from Turkey and one from Bulgaria.

----------


## matadworf

My wife's results. She knows that her mom is half Polish/half French but not sure about her dad. She was told he was full German but suspects he may have been Irish. Any guesses or is this not an appropriate calculator for her? Thanks 

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
51.88

2
Mediterranean
30.07

3
Baloch
10.05

4
Caucasian
5.84

5
Siberian
1

6
Papuan
0.65

7
W-African
0.29

8
American
0.19

9
Pygmy
0.05



*Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
utahn-white (hapmap)
1.78

2
n-european (xing)
2.06

3
utahn-white (1000genomes)
2.86

4
british (1000genomes)
4.24

5
orcadian (hgdp)
5.35

6
hungarian (behar)
10.61

7
slovenian (xing)
11.27

8
french (hgdp)
11.36

9
ukranian (yunusbayev)
15.01

10
belorussian (behar)
18.31

11
mordovian (yunusbayev)
19.69

12
russian (behar)
20.96

13
russian (hgdp)
21.55

14
lithuanian (behar)
22.92

15
spaniard (behar)
23.54

16
romanian-a (behar)
24.33

17
spaniard (1000genomes)
24.48

18
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
26.62

19
italian (hgdp)
27.01

20
chuvash (behar)
27.44



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance

1

87.9%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
12.1%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
@
0.93

2

89%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
11%
russian (hgdp)
@
1.07

3

97.3%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.7%
nogai (yunusbayev)
@
1.13

4

88.9%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
11.1%
russian (behar)
@
1.16

5

98%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2%
north-ossetian (yunusbayev)
@
1.24

6

98%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2%
balkar (yunusbayev)
@
1.25

7

98%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2%
adygei (hgdp)
@
1.25

8

97.6%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.4%
stalskoe (xing)
@
1.26

9

97.9%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.1%
chechen (yunusbayev)
@
1.26

10

97.8%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.2%
kumyk (yunusbayev)
@
1.26

11

98.2%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
1.8%
ket (rasmussen)
@
1.28

12

98.5%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
1.5%
dolgan (rasmussen)
@
1.28

13

97.7%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.3%
urkarah (xing)
@
1.28

14

98%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2%
selkup (rasmussen)
@
1.28

15

98.6%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
1.4%
yakut (hgdp)
@
1.29

16

97.9%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.1%
lezgin (behar)
@
1.29

17

95.7%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
4.3%
chuvash (behar)
@
1.29

18

98.7%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
1.3%
evenki (rasmussen)
@
1.29

19

98.8%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
1.2%
nganassan (rasmussen)
@
1.3

20

97.7%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
2.3%
uzbek (behar)
@
1.3


*

----------


## LeBrok

> My wife's results. She knows that her mom is half Polish/half French but not sure about her dad. She was told he was full German but suspects he may have been Irish. Any guesses or is this not an appropriate calculator for her? Thanks 
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> NE-Euro
> 51.88
> ...


Interesting, because from the admixtures she looks like a typical British.

----------


## matadworf

> Interesting, because from the admixtures she looks like a typical British.


If she were definitively half German what would be different in the admixture results?

----------


## matadworf

Or let me re-phrase-anything about her results that would be odd for someone who is half German, 1/4 French, 1/4 Polish?

----------


## LeBrok

> Or let me re-phrase-anything about her results that would be odd for someone who is half German, 1/4 French, 1/4 Polish?


 Actually, if the German and French ancestors were from North Germany and North France respectively, the admixtures could have been very close to what you posted. Except her Caucasian could have been at 8-9 not at 6, which is 30% discrepancy, that is hard to explain. Though knowing that our DNA is not exactly 50/50 from each parent, it is plausible. However, if one of ancestors was from South or East Germany or South France, it gets harder.

----------


## Jangozo

My results :

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Mediterranean
25.33

2
NE-Euro
19.88

3
Caucasian
16.6

4
W-African
13.96

5
American
8.75

6
SW-Asian
6.26

7
Baloch
4.98

8
S-Indian
2.19

9
SE-Asian
0.77

10
Pygmy
0.46

11
San
0.43

12
E-African
0.23

13
Papuan
0.16




A curious point here is that I'm all Italian by mother side (with some Balkanic too), half-Italian by father side and "I don't know what" from the other half. I know part of my family came from Iberia (mixed with Native Americans and Africans) and some from Lebanon BUT after some studies it seems they are from Central Asia. So, dunno how do get with this mess.

----------


## IronSide

> My results :
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> Mediterranean
> 25.33
> ...


Wow, cool results, you have something from everything it seems :)

If you don't mind can you post your Oracle-4 results? that might give a hint for the unknown part of your ancestry.

----------


## Jangozo

Double post.

----------


## Jangozo

Double post.

----------


## Jangozo

> Wow, cool results, you have something from everything it seems :)
> 
> If you don't mind can you post your Oracle-4 results? that might give a hint for the unknown part of your ancestry.


I sent it, but since it's too long maybe a mod will have to accept it lol

Anyway, I think I can put something here so : I don't think the Oracle-4 at Harappa can help a lot since there are some Latin American models there; so it makes just a bit closer if I try to compare with other ones:

Harappa 


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% italian_hgdp +25% mexican_hapmap +25% siddi_reich 5.216998


Using 4 populations approximation:


1 dominican_bryc + mexican_hapmap + morocco-jew_behar + serbian_harappa 3.873184
2 colombian_bryc + dominican_bryc + morocco-jew_behar + serbian_harappa 3.878793
3 cypriot_behar + dominican_bryc + french_hgdp + mexican_hapmap 3.932633
4 colombian_bryc + cypriot_behar + dominican_bryc + french_hgdp 4.006118
5 ashkenazi_harappa + dominican_bryc + italian_hgdp + mexican_hapmap 4.026695
6 colombian_1000genomes + dominican_bryc + morocco-jew_behar + serbian_harappa 4.096041
7 colombian_bryc + dominican_bryc + sephardic-jew_behar + serbian_harappa 4.145119
8 ashkenazy-jew_behar + colombian_bryc + dominican_bryc + romanian-a_behar 4.154835
9 dominican_bryc + mexican_hapmap + morocco-jew_behar + romanian-a_behar 4.175187
10 ashkenazy-jew_behar + dominican_bryc + italian_hgdp + mexican_hapmap 4.203468
11 ashkenazy-jew_behar + colombian_1000genomes + dominican_bryc + romanian-a_behar 4.212704
12 colombian_bryc + dominican_bryc + morocco-jew_behar + romanian-a_behar 4.239083
13 cypriot_behar + dominican_bryc + mexican_hapmap + utahn-white_1000genomes 4.261373
14 colombian_1000genomes + dominican_bryc + sephardic-jew_behar + serbian_harappa 4.262915
15 ashkenazy-jew_behar + dominican_bryc + puerto-rican_bryc + romanian-a_behar 4.273150
16 colombian_bryc + cypriot_behar + dominican_bryc + utahn-white_1000genomes 4.292156
17 ashkenazi_harappa + colombian_bryc + dominican_bryc + romanian-a_behar 4.312644
18 colombian_1000genomes + dominican_bryc + morocco-jew_behar + romanian-a_behar 4.316189
19 british_1000genomes + cypriot_behar + dominican_bryc + mexican_hapmap 4.325225
20 dominican_bryc + mexican_hapmap + spaniard_behar + turk-aydin_hodoglugil 4.340933

So, I tried something at Gedrosia:

Eurasia K9 ASI


1 Masai + Russian + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.554582
2 Estonian + Masai + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.578542
3 Estonian + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Afghan 4.608371
4 Lithuanian + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Afghan 4.650091
5 Lithuanian + Masai + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.661232
6 Belarusian + Masai + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.734346
7 Masai + Russian + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.812964
8 Belarusian + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Afghan 4.846671
9 Belarusian + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.846885
10 Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri + Ukrainian 4.881301
11 Masai + Norwegian + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.884840
12 Lezgin + Masai + Russian + Stuttgart 4.914491
13 Finnish + Masai + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.956182
14 Karelia + Lezgin + Masai + Stuttgart 4.956242
15 Masai + Norwegian + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 4.970801
16 Czech + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.972188
17 Masai + Scottish + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.975801
18 Finnish + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 4.991052
19 Icelandic + Masai + Stuttgart + Tajik_Pomiri 5.013173
20 Icelandic + Masai + Stuttgart + Uzbek_Afghan 5.01581

Dunno how to deal with it.

----------


## IronSide

> I sent it, but since it's too long maybe a mod will have to accept it lol
> 
> Anyway, I think I can put something here so : I don't think the Oracle-4 at Harappa can help a lot since there are some Latin American models there; so it makes just a bit closer if I try to compare with other ones:
> 
> Harappa 
> 
> 
> Using 3 populations approximation:
> 1 50% italian_hgdp +25% mexican_hapmap +25% siddi_reich 5.216998
> ...


Lithuanian and Stuttgart together would mean something European, Masai is an East African population with both sub-saharan and Levantie ancestry, both of which you have, and interestengly as you said, central Asian :)

----------


## Jangozo

> Lithuanian and Stuttgart together would mean something European, Masai is an East African population with both sub-saharan and Levantie ancestry, both of which you have, and interestengly as you said, central Asian :)


Yeah, the Lithuanian/Stuttgart probably "fill" the Italian/Balkanic sides. The rest of this 4.5 to 0 would be Amerindian, probably.

I'm an insane melting pot, typical brazilian.

----------


## IronSide

> Yeah, the Lithuanian/Suttgart probably "fill" the Italian/Balkanic sides. The rest of this 4.5 to 0 would be Amerindian, probably.
> 
> I'm a insane melting pot, typical brazilian.


I think it feels great to be connected to everyone, right ?

----------


## Jangozo

> I think it feels great to be connected to everyone, right ?


At some point, yes. I mean, my family culturally speaking is Italian/Brazilian everywhere, so it's somewhat hard to explain for them (especially my father, which has the Sub-Saharian/Amerindian/Central Asian side) that all his family is a big group of different ethnical groups. Since he lost his father when he was very young, he never had those connections.

But for me? I like it. I always made some jokes about it lol

----------


## LeBrok

> At some point, yes. I mean, my family culturally speaking is Italian/Brazilian everywhere, so it's somewhat hard to explain for them (especially my father, which has the Sub-Saharian/Amerindian/Central Asian side) that all his family is a big group of different ethnical groups. Since he lost his father when he was very young, he never had those connections.
> 
> But for me? I like it. I always made some jokes about it lol


At least half of your DNA looks European, but the rest belongs to the whole world,.... almost. Nice mix.

----------


## Jangozo

> At least half of your DNA looks European, but the rest belongs to the whole world,.... almost. Nice mix.


Just 0 E-Asian or Siberian, I think.

----------


## IronSide

> Just 0 E-Asian or Siberian, I think.


If it weren't for that you would truly be the embodiment of the whole world  :Grin: 

And then you could become the ambassador of Earth to the Aliens ...

----------


## davef

Aliens, Salento lol

----------


## Salento

> Aliens, Salento lol


I see you have Spoken my Mighty Name.
You should Know that in less than 12 hours, I’ve been mutating from Italian, to Puglyrian, to Apennine Illyrian, and back to Italian.
And now you are Calling me an Alien too.
lol lol  

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...477#post534477

----------


## davef

Nah, I meant ancient aliens (just to clarify). Let's not get too carried away with that show in this thread btw :)

----------


## Tomoe

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
37.58

2
Mediterranean
26.71

3
Caucasian
23.73

4
Baloch
7.63

5
SW-Asian
2.47

6
SE-Asian
0.51

7
Beringian
0.37

8
American
0.36

9
NE-Asian
0.34

10
Papuan
0.3


*

----------


## italouruguayan

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	26.37
2	NE-Euro	22.41
3	American	19.05
4	Caucasian	16.56
5	SW-Asian	6.85
6	Baloch	3.87
7	W-African	2.52


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 mexican_hapmap @ 14.555709
2 colombian_1000genomes @ 16.019730
3 puerto-rican_1000genomes @ 16.048594
4 colombian_bryc @ 20.546848
5 puerto-rican_bryc @ 20.929077
6 tuscan_hgdp @ 23.618700
7 italian_hgdp @ 23.703411
8 tuscan_hapmap @ 23.712833
9 tuscan_1000genomes @ 23.803040
10 romanian-a_behar @ 25.583813
11 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 26.416424
12 ashkenazi_harappa @ 26.933561
13 ashkenazy-jew_behar @ 28.323313
14 spaniard_behar @ 28.499174
15 spaniard_1000genomes @ 28.863825
16 serbian_harappa @ 29.270920
17 french_hgdp @ 30.897539
18 morocco-jew_behar @ 31.672659
19 mexican_1000genomes @ 31.848198
20 sephardic-jew_behar @ 32.750092

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% bulgarian_yunusbayev +50% colombian_bryc @ 4.951550


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% colombian_bryc +25% hungarian_behar +25% sephardic-jew_behar @ 3.333802


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.131399
2 colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.208290
3 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.221877
4 colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + hungarian_behar + sephardic-jew_behar @ 2.277056
5 colombian_1000genomes + mexican_1000genomes + sephardic-jew_behar + slovenian_xing @ 2.283185
6 colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + sephardic-jew_behar + slovenian_xing @ 2.291576
7 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.298923
8 colombian_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + mexican_1000genomes + sephardic-jew_behar @ 2.308340
9 colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.338288
10 colombian_1000genomes + ecuadorian_bryc + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.442700
11 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.447449
12 colombian_1000genomes + mexican_1000genomes + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.490095
13 colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.510849
14 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_1000genomes @ 2.517408
15 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.537231
16 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.549104
17 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.570498
18 colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hgdp @ 2.589331
19 colombian_bryc + mexican_1000genomes + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.608614
20 bulgarian_yunusbayev + colombian_1000genomes + mexican_1000genomes + tuscan_hapmap @ 2.621033

----------


## Jangozo

> Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> # Population Percent
> 1 Mediterranean 26.37
> 2 NE-Euro 22.41
> 3 American 19.05
> 4 Caucasian 16.56
> 5 SW-Asian 6.85
> 6 Baloch 3.87
> ...


Hey fellow South American, we are somewhat similar hahah

You just have more Amerindian than me, but I've more W-African instead.

----------


## italouruguayan

Hello Jangozo!
Apparently, we are typical specimens of the genetic admixtures of the Southern Cone of South America!

----------


## Tomenable

*LeBrok*, you can add my family to your Polish samples:

My father (FTDNA):

Population


S-Indian
0.16

Baloch
6.58

Caucasian
12.15

NE-Euro
55.98

SE-Asian
0.76

Siberian
0.27

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
22.10

SW-Asian
1.86

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.07

W-African
-



My mother (FTDNA):

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
9.61

Caucasian
9.82

NE-Euro
56.11

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.89

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
0.20

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
21.51

SW-Asian
1.86

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-



Maternal grandma (FTDNA):

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
10.35

Caucasian
8.32

NE-Euro
55.89

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.08

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
0.23

Mediterranean
23.86

SW-Asian
1.27

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
- 



My results (FTDNA):

Population


S-Indian
-

Baloch
9.22

Caucasian
10.95

NE-Euro
56.20

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
-

Beringian
0.34

Mediterranean
22.10

SW-Asian
1.19

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
-

----------


## hrvclv

Hi, LeBrok. Results from Auvergne, France. Quite predictable, I guess...

NE Euro : 38.97
Mediterranean : 37.48
Caucasian : 11.91
Baloch : 6.90
SW Asian : 4.32
Siberian : 0.20
E-African : 0.17

----------


## LeBrok

> *LeBrok*, you can add my family to your Polish samples:
> 
> 
> Maternal grandma (FTDNA):
> 
> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> ...


Appreciated. Your maternal grandma looks interesting, more like someone from East Germany. I'm assuming, because I don't have East German samples yet, but definitely she has more Germanic like influance.

----------


## LeBrok

> Hi, LeBrok. Results from Auvergne, France. Quite predictable, I guess...
> 
> NE Euro : 38.97
> Mediterranean : 37.48
> Caucasian : 11.91
> Baloch : 6.90
> SW Asian : 4.32
> Siberian : 0.20
> E-African : 0.17


Thanks, tables of page one updated.

----------


## Mark

Mine:
Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1NE-Euro50.95
2Mediterranean32.96
3Baloch9.44
4Caucasian4.74
5SW-Asian0.83
6Papuan0.49
7Siberian0.18
8Beringian0.14
9Pygmy0.14
10W-African0.13

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1utahn-white (1000genomes)1.16
2british (1000genomes)2.06
3utahn-white (hapmap)2.49
4n-european (xing)3.57
5orcadian (hgdp)4.43
6french (hgdp)9.66
7hungarian (behar)12.5
8slovenian (xing)13.38
9ukranian (yunusbayev)17.76
10belorussian (behar)20.88
11spaniard (behar)21.45
12spaniard (1000genomes)22.29
13mordovian (yunusbayev)22.65
14russian (behar)23.69
15russian (hgdp)24.31
16lithuanian (behar)25.18
17romanian-a (behar)25.22
18italian (hgdp)26.13
19bulgarian (yunusbayev)27.51
20spain-basc (henn2012)27.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance
1 91.9%utahn-white (hapmap)+8.1%spain-basc (henn2012)@0.62
2 85%utahn-white (1000genomes)+15%british (1000genomes)@1.12
3 99%utahn-white (1000genomes)+1%basque (hgdp)@1.12
4 98.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+1.1%spain-basc (henn2012)@1.13
5 90.9%utahn-white (hapmap)+9.1%spaniard (1000genomes)@1.14
6 95.4%utahn-white (1000genomes)+4.6%orcadian (hgdp)@1.15
7 99.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.2%papuan (hgdp)@1.15
8 99.7%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.3%tunisia (henn2012)@1.15
9 99.6%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.4%finnish (1000genomes)@1.15
10 99.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.1%melanesian (hgdp)@1.16
11 99.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.1%aus (reich)@1.16
12 99.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.2%morocco-n (henn2012)@1.16
13 99.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.2%mozabite (hgdp)@1.16
14 99.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.2%saharawi (henn2012)@1.16
15 95.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+4.2%utahn-white (hapmap)@1.16
16 99.6%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.4%spaniard (1000genomes)@1.16
17 99.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.1%morocco-s (henn2012)@1.16
18 99.8%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.2%sardinian (hgdp)@1.16
19 99.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.1%moroccan (behar)@1.16
20 99.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+0.1%algeria (henn2012)@1.16

Father’s:
Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1NE-Euro48.88
2Mediterranean36.51
3Baloch9.88
4Caucasian3.21
5SW-Asian0.58
6Papuan0.53
7American0.32
8San0.09

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1british (1000genomes)3.56
2utahn-white (1000genomes)4.5
3orcadian (hgdp)5.83
4utahn-white (hapmap)6.41
5n-european (xing)7.59
6french (hgdp)8.47
7hungarian (behar)15.72
8slovenian (xing)16.9
9spaniard (behar)19
10spaniard (1000genomes)19.72
11ukranian (yunusbayev)21.82
12spain-basc (henn2012)23.69
13belorussian (behar)24.89
14basque (hgdp)25.33
15italian (hgdp)25.43
16mordovian (yunusbayev)26.59
17romanian-a (behar)26.81
18russian (behar)27.72
19russian (hgdp)28.17
20lithuanian (behar)28.86

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance
1 87.3%british (1000genomes)+12.7%spain-basc (henn2012)@0.9
2 88%british (1000genomes)+12%basque (hgdp)@0.92
3 79%utahn-white (hapmap)+21%spain-basc (henn2012)@1.13
4 88.6%orcadian (hgdp)+11.4%sardinian (hgdp)@1.16
5 85.7%utahn-white (1000genomes)+14.3%basque (hgdp)@1.57
6 77.8%orcadian (hgdp)+22.2%spaniard (1000genomes)@1.58
7 84.9%utahn-white (1000genomes)+15.1%spain-basc (henn2012)@1.62
8 93.5%british (1000genomes)+6.5%sardinian (hgdp)@1.81
9 86.7%british (1000genomes)+13.3%spaniard (1000genomes)@1.89
10 77.7%n-european (xing)+22.3%basque (hgdp)@2.33
11 95.4%british (1000genomes)+4.6%tunisia (henn2012)@2.34
12 81.6%orcadian (hgdp)+18.4%spain-basc (henn2012)@2.36
13 76.6%n-european (xing)+23.4%spain-basc (henn2012)@2.39
14 82.7%orcadian (hgdp)+17.3%basque (hgdp)@2.45
15 95.6%british (1000genomes)+4.4%morocco-n (henn2012)@2.55
16 60.7%orcadian (hgdp)+39.3%french (hgdp)@2.64
17 77.6%british (1000genomes)+22.4%french (hgdp)@2.7
18 96.4%british (1000genomes)+3.6%mozabite (hgdp)@2.86
19 96.3%british (1000genomes)+3.7%algeria (henn2012)@2.86
20 96.6%british (1000genomes)+3.4%saharawi (henn2012)@2.9

Mother’s:
Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1NE-Euro50.15
2Mediterranean27.3
3Baloch10.92
4Caucasian8.54
5American1
6Siberian0.75
7SW-Asian0.72
8Papuan0.41
9San0.21

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1n-european (xing)4.48
2utahn-white (hapmap)5.33
3utahn-white (1000genomes)5.85
4hungarian (behar)7.43
5british (1000genomes)7.56
6slovenian (xing)8.34
7orcadian (hgdp)8.81
8french (hgdp)11.52
9ukranian (yunusbayev)13.19
10belorussian (behar)17.51
11mordovian (yunusbayev)18.2
12russian (behar)19.69
13russian (hgdp)20.69
14romanian-a (behar)21.1
15lithuanian (behar)23.15
16bulgarian (yunusbayev)23.41
17spaniard (behar)23.66
18spaniard (1000genomes)24.71
19italian (hgdp)25.42
20chuvash (behar)25.53

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance
1 92%n-european (xing)+8%urkarah (xing)@1.46
2 90.5%utahn-white (hapmap)+9.5%urkarah (xing)@1.48
3 91.3%utahn-white (hapmap)+8.7%chechen (yunusbayev)@1.56
4 90.1%utahn-white (hapmap)+9.9%stalskoe (xing)@1.57
5 92.6%n-european (xing)+7.4%lezgin (behar)@1.57
6 91.2%utahn-white (hapmap)+8.8%lezgin (behar)@1.62
7 91.8%n-european (xing)+8.2%stalskoe (xing)@1.63
8 91.3%utahn-white (hapmap)+8.7%kumyk (yunusbayev)@1.7
9 92.2%utahn-white (hapmap)+7.8%north-ossetian (yunusbayev)@1.79
10 92.1%utahn-white (hapmap)+7.9%adygei (hgdp)@1.79
11 91.9%utahn-white (hapmap)+8.1%balkar (yunusbayev)@1.8
12 93%n-european (xing)+7%chechen (yunusbayev)@1.86
13 92.9%n-european (xing)+7.1%kumyk (yunusbayev)@1.92
14 90.2%utahn-white (hapmap)+9.8%nogai (yunusbayev)@1.98
15 91.9%n-european (xing)+8.1%tajik (yunusbayev)@2.01
16 54.6%hungarian (behar)+45.4%orcadian (hgdp)@2.08
17 93.6%utahn-white (hapmap)+6.4%abhkasian (yunusbayev)@2.13
18 93.8%n-european (xing)+6.2%north-ossetian (yunusbayev)@2.13
19 93.2%utahn-white (hapmap)+6.8%georgian (harappa)@2.14
20 93.7%n-european (xing)+6.3%adygei (hgdp)@2.15

----------


## LeBrok

> Mine:
> 
> Father’s:
> Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> #PopulationPercent
> 1NE-Euro48.88
> 2Mediterranean36.51
> 3Baloch9.88
> ...


Your father's numbers look very interesting. Possible Irish-South French mix? It is hard to be sure. Definitely West European with North/South mix.

----------


## Mark

> Your father's numbers look very interesting. Possible Irish-South French mix? It is hard to be sure. Definitely West European with North/South mix.


Afaik my father’s family is English and Scottish, nothing else. His 23andme shows trace Iberian though... having a difficult time IDing anything in my family tree...

His 23andme, for what it’s worth:
European
99.9%
British & Irish
71.7%
United Kingdom
French & German
10.1%
Netherlands
Scandinavian
2.5%
Iberian
0.1%
Broadly Northwestern European
15.0%
Broadly Southern European
0.3%
Broadly European
0.3%
East Asian & Native American
0.1%
Southeast Asian
0.1%

So, who knows?

----------


## LeBrok

> Afaik my father’s family is English and Scottish, nothing else. His 23andme shows trace Iberian though... having a difficult time IDing anything in my family tree...
> 
> His 23andme, for what it’s worth:
> European
> 99.9%
> British & Irish
> 71.7%
> United Kingdom
> French & German
> ...


His mediterranean admixture is much higher than typical Brit. There is definitive South European connection.

----------


## Mark

Interesting, I’d wonder which way I came by that... direct male ancestry seemingly came out of nowhere 5 generations back @ 1800 N. Carolina. Somebody had suggested to me he may have been a privateer who changed his identity. Perhaps the Spaniard admixture is a clue. On ancestry.com DNA tests I show mostly “Europe West”:

IMG_2324.JPG

The mixed mode on my mother is what I find most interesting: 

1 92%n-european (xing)+8%urkarah (xing)@1.46

----------


## LeBrok

> Interesting, I’d wonder which way I came by that... direct male ancestry seemingly came out of nowhere 5 generations back @ 1800 N. Carolina. Somebody had suggested to me he may have been a privateer who changed his identity. Perhaps the Spaniard admixture is a clue. On ancestry.com DNA tests I show mostly “Europe West”:
> 
> IMG_2324.JPG
> 
> The mixed mode on my mother is what I find most interesting: 
> 
> 1 92%n-european (xing)+8%urkarah (xing)@1.46


 To me she looks rather English with bit of North Germanic. Tiny amount of American and Siberian admixture is typical for North Europeans, or perhaps in her case might be a tiny signal of Native American ancestry, like 1%. Hard to say.

----------


## Mark

This is why I don’t put much trust in these models, whereas my parents had each “trace” American and San I magically dropped them completely and picked up Pygmy, W-African, and Beringian out of nowhere, seemingly. What I see is somewhat necessary overselection based upon tiny bits of autosomal patterns. One pattern that looks like something seen in San and Papuan samples respectively in my father instead look like Beringian and Pygmy in me when placed next to what was seen as Siberian, Med or Baloch in my mother.

----------


## Ygorcs

Hi, I don't know if this is the appropriate venue for that, but I'm intrigued about these results of a Spaniard man (so, they're not mine, I was asked by him exactly about these apparently unusual percentages). 

He says he was surprised by his results mainly because, being a Spaniard from a region closer to the Basque Country than to Portugal (yet he clusters closer to Portuguese people) he appears in the Gedmatch calculator for ancient admixtures with a relatively low "Neolithic" (42%) and a really excessive WHG (25.8%), as well as a significant proportion of EHG (18.1%). But I found it a bit weird that "Neolithic", which includes a big chunk of Basal Eurasian, is lumped together with a muuuuuch later admixture than Basal Eurasian. Doesn't that kind of thing cause some distortions due to some overlap?

Also, I notice that there is no admixture that, at least as far as I can see, is a good proxy for CHG or Iranian_Neolithic (though Basal Eurasian was also quite prevalent in the latter). Could it be that his relatively huge % of WHG and EHG are simply an artifact of the lack of a set of admixtures that would be a better fit to his real Neolithic/Mesolithic ancestral admixtures? 

I don't know, I just find it a bit implausible that this Modern Spaniard, who clusters on the PCA as very close to other Spaniards and especially to Portuguese people, would have just 42% of "EEF proper" ancestry and almost 26% of "real" WHG. Also, this 18.1% EHG would mean something like 35% of Bronze Age steppe admixture. 

Wouldn't he plot in a quite different position from that of average Iberians if those were his ACTUAL genetic makeup?

----------


## Mark

I would definitely need to see more results of Spaniards to speak on that. He has more Neolithic than me on the same test. I will say that peoples of Portugal and into the former region of Leon should have some Suebi ancestral elements, for what it’s worth. I have seen pictures of people from Northern Portugal who look rather Germanic.Image1523163459.019600.jpg

----------


## LeBrok

> Hi, I don't know if this is the appropriate venue for that, but I'm intrigued about these results of a Spaniard man (so, they're not mine, I was asked by him exactly about these apparently unusual percentages). 
> 
> He says he was surprised by his results mainly because, being a Spaniard from a region closer to the Basque Country than to Portugal (yet he clusters closer to Portuguese people) he appears in the Gedmatch calculator for ancient admixtures with a relatively low "Neolithic" (42%) and a really excessive WHG (25.8%), as well as a significant proportion of EHG (18.1%). But I found it a bit weird that "Neolithic", which includes a big chunk of Basal Eurasian, is lumped together with a muuuuuch later admixture than Basal Eurasian. Doesn't that kind of thing cause some distortions due to some overlap?
> 
> Also, I notice that there is no admixture that, at least as far as I can see, is a good proxy for CHG or Iranian_Neolithic (though Basal Eurasian was also quite prevalent in the latter). Could it be that his relatively huge % of WHG and EHG are simply an artifact of the lack of a set of admixtures that would be a better fit to his real Neolithic/Mesolithic ancestral admixtures? 
> 
> I don't know, I just find it a bit implausible that this Modern Spaniard, who clusters on the PCA as very close to other Spaniards and especially to Portuguese people, would have just 42% of "EEF proper" ancestry and almost 26% of "real" WHG. Also, this 18.1% EHG would mean something like 35% of Bronze Age steppe admixture. 
> 
> Wouldn't he plot in a quite different position from that of average Iberians if those were his ACTUAL genetic makeup?


Interestingly WHG admixture increased in farmers from EN to LN, and then jumped even higher during Bronze Age, adding EHG at same time too. We also have to keep in mind that Neolithic Farmers from Anatolia already contained 10% of WHG, which could have been separated and included in this K11 run as WHG.

----------


## Angela

42% Neolithic farmer is normal for Southern Europeans on the MDLP K 11 modern. It's what I get. The total "European hunter gatherer" is about the same for me as for the Spaniard, just reversed, with me getting more EHG and less WHG.

Neolithic 42.72
EHG 24.013
WHG 18.424

The only other difference is that I get no African, but I get more Basal (13%)

Those scores make absolutely no sense to me and don't correlate with scores on other calculators. Also, according to academic analyses, Italians from my part of Italy should have about 25-30% steppe, so how could I have such high EHG; it should be about 15%.

Imo, people shouldn't take this amateur stuff so seriously. Who knows how they form their clusters.

----------


## Johane Derite

> 42% Neolithic farmer is normal for Southern Europeans on the MDLP K 11 modern. It's what I get. The total "European hunter gatherer" is about the same for me as for the Spaniard, just reversed, with me getting more EHG and less WHG.
> 
> Neolithic 42.72
> EHG 24.013
> WHG 18.424
> 
> The only other difference is that I get no African, but I get more Basal (13%)
> 
> Those scores make absolutely no sense to me and don't correlate with scores on other calculators. Also, according to academic analyses, Italians from my part of Italy should have about 25-30% steppe, so how could I have such high EHG; it should be about 15%.
> ...


This is what it gives me:

Basal
13.20

Iran-Mesolithic
3.55

Neolithic
39.62

Oceanic
0.92

EHG
24.47

SEA
-

Siberian
-

WHG
18.25

----------


## Mark

> This is what it gives me:
> 
> Basal
> 13.20
> 
> Iran-Mesolithic
> 3.55
> 
> Neolithic
> ...


Bro, nice.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Bro, nice.


lol, XD. Still wondering what this oceanian i keep getting is  :Laughing:

----------


## Mark

> lol, XD. Still wondering what this oceanian i keep getting is


Back migration from Tazmania. 🤪 Obviously.

----------


## Tomenable

> Appreciated. Your maternal grandma looks interesting, more like someone from East Germany. I'm assuming, because I don't have East German samples yet, but definitely she has more Germanic like influance.


It depends on calculator. 

She seems northern-shifted but I'm not sure if it is more Germanic or Baltic (in Eurogenes K15 she has high North Sea but also high Baltic - she has the highest Baltic of us four, while my mom has the highest North Sea, my dad and me have high Atlantic).

Our Eurogenes K15 (grandma / mom / dad / me):

North Sea - 23.25 / *26.77* / 24.18 / 22.24
Atlantic - 17.26 / 14.93 / *19.34* / 19.65
Baltic - *27.75* / 23.96 / 24.98 / 25.41
East Euro - 17.96 / *19.95* / 15.86 / 18.22
West Med - 6.29 / 5.53 / 5.16 / 5.35
West Asian - 4.97 / 4.42 / 4.74 / 6.36
East Med - 1.23 / 3.32 / 4.53 / 2.70
Red Sea - 0.87 / 0.24 / 0.00 / 0.00
South Asian - 0.43 / 0.17 / 0.00 / 0.07
Amerind - 0.00 / 0.54 / 0.00 / 0.00
Oceanian - 0.00 / 0.00 / 0.23 / 0.00
NE African - 0.00 / 0.17 / 0.96 / 0.00

Eurogenes K36 (from FTDNA data) for comparison:
(grandma has the highest North Sea in this case)

Eurogenes K36
Grandma
Mom
Dad
Me

Amerindian





Arabian

0.65



Armenian





Basque
1.25

0.29
0.91

Central African


0.05


Central Euro
5.66
8.82
10.15
9.80

East African





East Asian





East Balkan
5.16
5.10
8.33
8.54

East-Central Asian





East-Central Euro
23.68
22.14
19.23
22.87

East Med





Eastern Euro
16.77
14.63
13.70
13.99

Fennoscandian
7.50
11.95
11.05
9.32

French
4.10
6.50
5.28
4.93

Iberian
6.59
2.00
6.23
0.39

Indo-Chinese





Italian
5.57
6.62
3.34
5.96

Malayan





Near Eastern


1.93


North African





North Atlantic
9.20
6.55
9.10
8.14

North Caucasian
1.62
4.14

2.15

*North Sea*
*12.12*
10.89
10.51
11.81

Northeast African





Oceanian





Omotic





Pygmy





Siberian





South Asian





South-Central Asian





South Chinese





Volga-Ural


0.36


West African





West Caucasian
0.78

0.24


West Med


0.17
1.20

----------


## Angela

> This is what it gives me:
> 
> Basal
> 13.20
> 
> Iran-Mesolithic
> 3.55
> 
> Neolithic
> ...



We're really close again. :)

The only difference is that you get that 3.55 Iran Chalcolithic. I only get less than .5%. If you add that to your 39.6 Neolithic you get to my 42%.

You're unusually close to Italians for an Albanian, yes?

----------


## Johane Derite

> We're really close again. :)
> 
> 
> You're unusually close to Italians for an Albanian, yes?


I don't know. In gedmatch albanians do tend to show up in the top 3 results so I'm guessing there must be enough like me. But maybe its also these calculators are not as good at distinguishing from balkans/south euros?

No clue, confusing and exciting though

----------


## Tomenable

> I don't have East German samples yet


I have a lot with GEDCOMs but I wasn't checking what they score in HarappaWorld so far.

----------


## LeBrok

> I have a lot with GEDCOMs but I wasn't checking what they score in HarappaWorld so far.


Could you post 5 of them for this statistic. Thanks

----------


## Ygorcs

Thanks for your answers, guys and girls! They were quite clarifying for me.  :Wink:

----------


## maratmilano

My Harappa results:

Caucasian 48.75
Baloch 19.75
SW Asian 10.72
Mediterranean 7.16
NE Euro 7.08
NE Asian 1.75
South Indian 1.57
Siberian 1.42

Top result by Least Squares is Azeri, then Turk, and Armenian third. Being half Azeri half Armenian Harappa ended up being fairly accurate predictor

----------


## LeBrok

> My Harappa results:
> 
> Caucasian 48.75
> Baloch 19.75
> SW Asian 10.72
> Mediterranean 7.16
> NE Euro 7.08
> NE Asian 1.75
> South Indian 1.57
> ...


Right on. Looking at your numbers, some of them fit very well Armenians some Azeris. Though all of the nations below are very closely genetically related.




S Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE Euro
SE Asian
Siberian
NE Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW Asian
San
E African
Pygmy
W African

stalskoe, Dagestan
xing
5
0%
24%
41%
21%
2%
3%
1%
1%
2%
1%
4%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%

north-ossetian
harappa
1
0%
19%
45%
14%
1%
5%
3%
1%
1%
1%
4%
3%
1%
0%
1%
0%

kumyk
yunusbayev
14
0%
21%
47%
16%
1%
4%
3%
0%
1%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%

chechen
yunusbayev
20
0%
22%
51%
20%
0%
2%
1%
0%
1%
1%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

adygei
hgdp
17
1%
18%
57%
16%
1%
3%
1%
0%
1%
1%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%

abhkasian
yunusbayev
20
0%
18%
69%
8%
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
1%
1%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0%

georgian
harappa
4
0%
20%
62%
6%
0%
0%
1%
1%
0%
1%
2%
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%

armenian
harappa
2
2%
18%
46%
3%
0%
1%
1%
2%
0%
1%
10%
15%
1%
0%
0%
0%

azeri
harappa
3
3%
19%
43%
7%
0%
4%
3%
1%
1%
1%
7%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk
behar
19
1%
16%
47%
9%
0%
4%
2%
0%
1%
1%
10%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-aydin
hodoglugil
20
1%
12%
38%
14%
0%
6%
4%
0%
0%
1%
14%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-istanbul
hodoglugil
20
1%
16%
45%
11%
1%
3%
3%
0%
0%
1%
11%
9%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turk-kayseri
hodoglugil
23
1%
15%
45%
8%
1%
4%
2%
0%
0%
1%
11%
10%
0%
0%
0%
0%

turkish
harappa
11
2%
17%
40%
9%
1%
4%
2%
1%
1%
1%
11%
11%
1%
1%
0%
0%

----------


## halfalp

Hello ! here my result with HarappaWorld and Oracle.


*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
french (hgdp)
7.11

2
hungarian (behar)
11.04

3
slovenian (xing)
13.19

4
utahn-white (1000genomes)
13.34

5
romanian-a (behar)
13.61

6
italian (hgdp)
13.62

7
n-european (xing)
14.06

8
utahn-white (hapmap)
14.75

9
spaniard (behar)
14.77

10
british (1000genomes)
14.85

11
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
15.72

12
spaniard (1000genomes)
16.12

13
orcadian (hgdp)
17.64

14
tuscan (hapmap)
19.41

15
tuscan (hgdp)
19.77

16
tuscan (1000genomes)
20.26

17
ukranian (yunusbayev)
21.86

18
spain-basc (henn2012)
27.05

19
belorussian (behar)
27.24

20
mordovian (yunusbayev)
27.81



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

88.5%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
11.5%
 adygei (hgdp)
 @ 
2.15

2

90.7%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
9.3%
 georgian (behar)
 @ 
2.21

3

90.4%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
9.6%
 abhkasian (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.22

4

88.3%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
11.7%
 balkar (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.24

5

69.8%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
30.2%
 bulgarian (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.29

6

88.7%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
11.3%
 north-ossetian (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.29

7

57%
 utahn-white (hapmap)
 + 
43%
 tuscan (hapmap)
 @ 
2.4

8

66.7%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
33.3%
 romanian-a (behar)
 @ 
2.4

9

59.5%
 utahn-white (1000genomes)
 + 
40.5%
 tuscan (hapmap)
 @ 
2.44

10

87.9%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
12.1%
 chechen (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.47

11

60.5%
 utahn-white (1000genomes)
 + 
39.5%
 tuscan (1000genomes)
 @ 
2.51

12

57.9%
 british (1000genomes)
 + 
42.1%
 tuscan (1000genomes)
 @ 
2.82

13

58.2%
 n-european (xing)
 + 
41.8%
 tuscan (hapmap)
 @ 
2.84

14

87.8%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
12.2%
 kumyk (yunusbayev)
 @ 
2.9

15

53.5%
 orcadian (hgdp)
 + 
46.5%
 tuscan (1000genomes)
 @ 
3.02

16

88.2%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
11.8%
 lezgin (behar)
 @ 
3.12

17

59.4%
 n-european (xing)
 + 
40.6%
 tuscan (1000genomes)
 @ 
3.21

18

86.7%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
13.3%
 stalskoe (xing)
 @ 
3.22

19

87.7%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
12.3%
 urkarah (xing)
 @ 
3.23

20

89.6%
 french (hgdp)
 + 
10.4%
 armenian (behar)
 @ 
3.24


1
NE-Euro
40.59

2
Mediterranean
32.41

3
Caucasian
15.99

4
Baloch
8.64

5
SW-Asian
1.28

6
Papuan
0.89

7
E-African
0.2



So what exactly does it say ? I played a little with GEDmatch calculator like Eurogenes. Being new into the pleasure of dna ancestry result, i'm like a little kid who wants to understand what he does.

----------


## davef

What's your enthicity halfalp? I guess you're half swiss (going by your username and location)?

----------


## LeBrok

> What's your enthicity halfalp? I guess you're half swiss (going by your username and location)?


His numbers are very close to Swiss-French mix from database on page one.

----------


## Mark

> His numbers are very close to Swiss-French mix from database on page one.


I’m betting French-Canadian with some English and/or some other maybe East or South German and Slavic background.

----------


## Angela

Well, from the previous analyses, French speaking Swiss seem French like, Italian speaking Swiss are Italian like, and I presume, therefore, that German speaking Swiss are German like. 

Switzerland is not genetically homogeneous.

----------


## halfalp

I'm swiss but my grand-mother from maternal side is from Dresden germany, but the paternal side of my german born maternal grand-mother is from Berne switzerland. I do not have any French proper ancestry to my knowledge.

----------


## halfalp

> Well, from the previous analyses, French speaking Swiss seem French like, Italian speaking Swiss are Italian like, and I presume, therefore, that German speaking Swiss are German like. 
> 
> Switzerland is not genetically homogeneous.


But in Eurogenes test my highest component is Italian following by Iberian and North-Atlantic, and according to 23andme i have a 100% italian ancestor between the last 200 years but also a 100% balkans ancestor.

----------


## mwauthy

> I’m betting French-Canadian with some English and/or some other maybe East or South German and Slavic background.


My mom is French Canadian and only has a distance of 2 with French HGDP.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> But in Eurogenes test my highest component is Italian following by Iberian and North-Atlantic, and according to 23andme i have a 100% italian ancestor between the last 200 years but also a 100% balkans ancestor.


There are many Swiss (Swiss French or Swiss Germans) who have high Italian component on Eurogenes K36 without having any Italian ancestor.

Italian on K36 doesn't imply necessarily Italian ancestry.

----------


## Angela

> But in Eurogenes test my highest component is Italian following by Iberian and North-Atlantic, and according to 23andme i have a 100% italian ancestor between the last 200 years but also a 100% balkans ancestor.


Sorry, halfalp, I just saw this response to me.

Are you from the French speaking part of Switzerland? If yes, then your results correlate with that, in that you are closest to French people, although the fit is very bad because you're not actually French.

You have to understand what these tests are telling you. Harappa World is not telling you that you have actual French ancestors in your genealogy within even hundreds of years. They're saying your genome is closest to the genome of French people who are, after all, neighbors of the French (which makes perfect sense and was to be expected), although you obviously have other ancestry, which is why the fit is so bad.

For another thing, that particular Eurogenes calculator is ridiculous. 

You also can't interpret 23andme in the way you're doing. Ignore the timeline. It just confuses everyone. 23andme is picking up ancient admixture, not recent.

----------


## halfalp

> Sorry, halfalp, I just saw this response to me.
> 
> Are you from the French speaking part of Switzerland? If yes, then your results correlate with that, in that you are closest to French people, although the fit is very bad because you're not actually French.
> 
> You have to understand what these tests are telling you. Harappa World is not telling you that you have actual French ancestors in your genealogy within even hundreds of years. They're saying your genome is closest to the genome of French people who are, after all, neighbors of the French (which makes perfect sense and was to be expected), although you obviously have other ancestry, which is why the fit is so bad.
> 
> For another thing, that particular Eurogenes calculator is ridiculous. 
> 
> You also can't interpret 23andme in the way you're doing. Ignore the timeline. It just confuses everyone. 23andme is picking up ancient admixture, not recent.


Thanks for the response. Yes i understand that the French-German thing is about a genetic transition between modern north-eastern french and south germans, somthing like that. My father is from the french part and my mother from the german part, with my maternal grand mother coming from eastern germany. For the Eurogenes calculators, yes it's pretty confusing. Whats actually confusing me with the 100% Italian and Balkan ancestor from the 23andme test is that, me, my father and my mother, we look extremelly balkans-like, dinaric or albanese, if i tell to anybody that i've made a genetic test and i'm mostly from the alpine celtic parts, nobody believes me, wich was one of the reason i made a test and it's fascinating, i like to think that i look something coming from an ancestral migration.

----------


## halfalp

> There are many Swiss (Swiss French or Swiss Germans) who have high Italian component on Eurogenes K36 without having any Italian ancestor.
> 
> Italian on K36 doesn't imply necessarily Italian ancestry.


So i know haplogroups and component dont are necessarily related above all in a modern context, but being R1b-S28 wich the high spot is in Northern Italy, isn't that could show an ancestral relationship ? Maybe an Italo-Celtic one. Switzerland is a pretty enclosed land.

----------


## Angela

> Thanks for the response. Yes i understand that the French-German thing is about a genetic transition between modern north-eastern french and south germans, somthing like that. My father is from the french part and my mother from the german part, with my maternal grand mother coming from eastern germany. For the Eurogenes calculators, yes it's pretty confusing. Whats actually confusing me with the 100% Italian and Balkan ancestor from the 23andme test is that, me, my father and my mother, we look extremelly balkans-like, dinaric or albanese, if i tell to anybody that i've made a genetic test and i'm mostly from the alpine celtic parts, nobody believes me, wich was one of the reason i made a test and it's fascinating, i like to think that i look something coming from an ancestral migration.


There's a lot of shared ancestry between the Swiss and the Northern Italians, half alp. You can see that, as you say, in the yhaplogroup. There's "Celtic" in Switzerland, and Celtic migrations into Northern Italy starting in the first millennium BC. There was a German migration down into Switzerland and also into Italy with the Goths and the Lombards. Flowing from the other direction, there is lots of Neolithic farmer ancestry. It's just the proportions that are different, although the Italian Swiss are not all that different from the French Swiss.

As for appearance, you can never tell what's going to come out. My first cousin married a Swiss German from Liestal. Although his features weren't particularly Italian, he had black hair, dark brown eyes and the most beautiful long, sable like, eyelashes. Meanwhile, my father's family are all red or fair haired with light eyes. It's all just a roll of the genetic dice.

----------


## halfalp

> There's a lot of shared ancestry between the Swiss and the Northern Italians, half alp. You can see that, as you say, in the yhaplogroup. There's "Celtic" in Switzerland, and Celtic migrations into Northern Italy starting in the first millennium BC. There was a German migration down into Switzerland and also into Italy with the Goths and the Lombards. Flowing from the other direction, there is lots of Neolithic farmer ancestry. It's just the proportions that are different, although the Italian Swiss are not all that different from the French Swiss.As for appearance, you can never tell what's going to come out. My first cousin married a Swiss German from Liestal. Although his features weren't particularly Italian, he had black hair, dark brown eyes and the most beautiful long, sable like, eyelashes. Meanwhile, my father's family are all red or fair haired with light eyes. It's all just a roll of the genetic dice.


I got those eyelashes too ! What's funny is that, people confusing me with an albanian but when i ask to an albanian if i look albanian, they tell me that i look more italian because of my dark features ( black hair, brown eyes ).

----------


## Salento

> I got those eyelashes too ! What's funny is that, people confusing me with an albanian but when i ask to an albanian if i look albanian, they tell me that i look more italian because of my dark features ( black hair, brown eyes ).


Italians don’t look all the same:
View of Italy - Italian Men: 



French vs Italian Women:
https://youtu.be/fP6Q3q9pPqw

----------


## Aspar

Harapa World results:

*#* *Population* *Percent
*1 NE-Euro 32.24
2 Caucasian 26.67
3 Mediterranean 24.03
4 SW-Asian 9.42
5 Baloch 6.22
6 American 0.71
7 SE-Asian 0.45
8 E-African 0.11
9 Siberian 0.1
10 Papuan 0.04

----------


## IronSide

some Arabian results I got from Gedmatch:

-a guy from the tribe of Otaibah, historically a large nomadic tribe in central and western Arabia, I expect most Otaibians to be like him:

1	SW-Asian	61.69
2	Caucasian	24.98
3	Mediterranean	4.86
4	E-African	2.81
5	Baloch 2.58
6	Beringian	1.21
7	Pygmy 0.66
8	San 0.45
9	S-Indian	0.44
10	NE-Asian	0.22
11	NE-Euro 0.09

- a Zahrani individual, historically an agriculturist tribe inhabiting southwestern Arabia, in the mountains of Sarawat, which are the southern portion of the Hejaz, they're historically from Yemen:

1	SW-Asian	43.76
2	Caucasian	30.15
3	Mediterranean	9.34
4	Baloch 6.34
5	E-African	6.27
6	S-Indian	1.62
7	NE-Euro 0.79
8	Papuan 0.77
9	NE-Asian	0.57
10	Siberian	0.3
11	Beringian	0.08
12	American	0.01

-Ghamid tribe, closely related to Zahran:

1	SW-Asian	42.42
2	Caucasian	31.11
3	Mediterranean	9.35
4	Baloch 6.43
5	E-African	6.38
6	S-Indian	2.8
7	SE-Asian	0.75
8	NE-Euro 0.48
9	American	0.15
10	W-African	0.12


- Enezi tribe, one of the largest tribes in Arabia, mostly in the North, there are many clans in Syria and Iraq also:

1	SW-Asian	50.85
2	Caucasian	28.03
3	Mediterranean	8.15
4	Baloch 5.26
5	E-African	4.32
6	S-Indian	1.78
7	NE-Euro 0.44
8	San 0.38
9	W-African	0.34
10	Beringian	0.33
11	Pygmy 0.07
12	American	0.06

-Mutairi tribe, in central, western, and eastern Arabia, nomads historically, they're theorized to be closely related to Otaibah, earliest poetry mentions them together, no wonder they share the same deep clade of J1:

1	SW-Asian	60.43
2	Caucasian	27.22
3	Mediterranean	5.51
4	E-African	5.07
5	San	0.64
6	S-Indian	0.44
7	Baloch	0.23
8	American	0.2
9	Beringian	0.17
10	Papuan	0.08

-tribe of Harb, migrated from Yemen after the rise of Islam, settled in Western Arabia in the Hejaz, but there also large contingents in central and northern Araba, their results vary and I couldn't find a "profile" so I'll post all three that I could find:

1	SW-Asian	52.47
2	Caucasian	28.18
3	Mediterranean	8.71
4	E-African	4.74
5	Baloch 4.38
6	Papuan 0.96
7	S-Indian	0.3
8	SE-Asian	0.17
9	Pygmy 0.11


===========




1	SW-Asian	56.28
2	Caucasian	27.97
3	Mediterranean	6.98
4	E-African	5.04
5	Baloch 2.59
6	NE-Asian	0.53
7	San 0.52
8	Pygmy 0.06
9	Papuan 0.02


===========


1	SW-Asian	55.23
2	Caucasian	25
3	E-African	9.68
4	Mediterranean	7.78
5	Baloch 1.5
6	Beringian	0.33
7	W-African	0.2
8	Pygmy 0.2
9	S-Indian	0.08


-an individual from Garn(or Qarn), a southern tribe, historically an agriculturist tribe, in Arab genealogy books, they share a lineage with Ghamid and Zahran and the same story of migration from Yemen:

1	SW-Asian	47.6
2	Caucasian	31.25
3	Mediterranean	9.62
4	Baloch 4.82
5	E-African	4.73
6	Papuan 1.01
7	SE-Asian	0.82
8	NE-Asian	0.11
9	San 0.03

-Tamim tribe, historically from the central Nejd plateau, a complex history of nomadism and urbanism, in the early Islamic era they were one of the largest tribes that participated in the Islamic conquests, and may have caused them to spread too thin and reduced their numbers in Arabia, still many people in Eastern Gulf cities and families in Nejd who claim ancestry from them:

1	SW-Asian	49.7
2	Caucasian	27.76
3	Baloch 7.75
4	Mediterranean	6.51
5	E-African	3.39
6	S-Indian	3.03
7	SE-Asian	0.57
8	American	0.54
9	NE-Euro 0.52
10	Papuan 0.22

-Azmi tribe, in Eastern Arabia but migrated from the west, one of the most important tribes in Kuwait, their individuals hold the highest number of seats in the Kuawiti parlament:

1	SW-Asian	65.09
2	Caucasian	26.02
3	Mediterranean	5.25
4	S-Indian	1.86
5	E-African	0.79
6	NE-Euro 0.59
7	San 0.18
8	SE-Asian	0.11
9	NE-Asian	0.11

-Asir tribe, who inhabit the province of Asir in southern Saudi Arabia, strangely their Y-dna shares an ancestry with the Enezi tribe, leading some to suggest a common origin, interestingly Asir appears as an obscure name in the same genealogical clade linking them known as "Rabiah", so they either migrated from the north or the Enezah migrated from the south:

1	SW-Asian	53.45
2	Caucasian	31.12
3	Mediterranean	9
4	Baloch 2.51
5	E-African	2.45
6	Papuan 0.63
7	American	0.52
8	S-Indian	0.32

-Harthi tribe, in classical Arab genealogy books, Haritha is a large tribe that inhabited Najran in the south, but they're mostly found today in western Arabia around the city of Taif, so they either migrated from there or are different tribes:

1	SW-Asian	51.06
2	Caucasian	28.17
3	Mediterranean	7.14
4	E-African	6.47
5	Baloch	3.79
6	San	0.83
7	W-African	0.6
8	SE-Asian	0.59
9	Siberian	0.58
10	S-Indian	0.56
11	American	0.21





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

these are not all the tribes in Arabia of course, but what I could find from Gedmatch, I hope you found it interesting :)

----------


## Sizzles

Here is mine
37.46 n e euro
27.04 Mediterranean 
17.64 Caucasian 
9.57 baloch
6.38 s w asian
0.73 s-indian
0.5 american
O. 36 beringian
0.28 san
0.04 papuan

Single
Romanian behar 8.76
Bulgarian yunusbagev 11.2
Hungarian behar 11.85
French hgdp 12.85
Italian hgdp 13.47
Slovenian xing 13.76
Tuscan hapmap 16.74
Tuscan 1000 genome 17.12
N euro xing 17.88
Utahn white 1000 genome 17.92
Spainard behar 18.14
British 1000 genome 19.55
Orcadin hgdp 21.94
Ukranian yunusbagev 22.3
Ashkenazi harrappa 22.39
Ashkenazi jew behen 26.34
Puerto rican 1000 genome 26.97

Anybody knows what it means?

----------


## noman

Results of Western Utter Pardesh Jatt of Sheoran clan.

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Baloch
35.24

2
S-Indian
25.99

3
NE-Euro
21.59

4
Caucasian
10.70

5
Mediterranean
2.13

6
Beringian
1.97

7
American
1.09


*
Using 1 population approximation:
1 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 4.921370
2 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 10.091839
3 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 10.791029
4 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 12.489895
5 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 13.064401
6 nepali_harappa @ 13.221250
7 pathan_hgdp @ 13.682179
8 nepalese-a_xing @ 13.999750
9 kashmiri_harappa @ 14.526115
10 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 14.567084
11 sindhi_harappa @ 14.720355
12 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 14.901998
13 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 14.926667
14 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 15.311931
15 bhatia_harappa @ 15.319475
16 burusho_hgdp @ 15.464457
17 punjabi_harappa @ 15.635611
18 pashtun_harappa @ 16.412382
19 up-muslim_harappa @ 16.463779
20 kalash_hgdp @ 16.468153

----------


## bigsnake49

Population


S-Indian
0.54

Baloch
9.11

Caucasian
28.70

NE-Euro
29.51

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
0.54

Papuan
-

American
0.11

Beringian
0.43

Mediterranean
24.00

SW-Asian
6.50

San
-

E-African
0.49

Pygmy
0.07

W-African
-



Greek whose ancestors lived in Eastern Thrace.

----------


## Sile

> Italians don’t look all the same:
> View of Italy - Italian Men: 
> 
> 
> 
> French vs Italian Women:
> https://youtu.be/fP6Q3q9pPqw


I see zero difference between french and italian women..........impossible to tell apart

----------


## Salento

> I see zero difference between french and italian women..........impossible to tell apart


That’s because you’re not focusing at their Faces.
Keep your eyes up, and don’t get distracted by looking below the neck. LoL :)

----------


## Tomenable

*LeBrok*, you can add *Réunion* results.

100% of ancestors of this person up to 7 generations back are from Réunion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réunion

First Non-Réunionian ancestor (from Azores) appears in 8th generation back.

HarappaWorld:

Admixtures:

S-Indian 5.86
Baloch 7.69
Caucasian 7.73
NE-Euro 31.39
SE-Asian 2.66
Siberian 0.50
NE-Asian 2.06
Papuan 0.58
American 0.48
Beringian 0.24
Mediterranean 24.21
SW-Asian 2.14
San 0.38
E-African 0.15
Pygmy 1.01
W-African 12.93

Oracles:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 french (hgdp) 21.06
2 puerto-rican (1000genomes) 21.86
3 romanian-a (behar) 22.1
4 hungarian (behar) 22.4
5 puerto-rican (bryc) 23.27
6 italian (hgdp) 23.32
7 slovenian (xing) 23.46
8 spaniard (behar) 23.82
9 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 23.99
10 utahn-white (1000genomes) 24.25
11 spaniard (1000genomes) 24.3
12 n-european (xing) 24.38
13 utahn-white (hapmap) 25.13
14 british (1000genomes) 25.19
15 tuscan (hapmap) 26.19
16 tuscan (hgdp) 26.34
17 tuscan (1000genomes) 26.62
18 orcadian (hgdp) 26.81
19 ukranian (yunusbayev) 29.47
20 dominican (bryc) 30.81

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72% french (hgdp) + 28% siddi (reich) @ 4.51
2 69.4% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 30.6% siddi (reich) @ 7.18
3 68.7% british (1000genomes) + 31.3% siddi (reich) @ 7.86
4 69.5% n-european (xing) + 30.5% siddi (reich) @ 7.91
5 58.9% hungarian (behar) + 41.1% dominican (bryc) @ 8.72
6 80.8% french (hgdp) + 19.2% fang (henn2012) @ 8.86
7 79.5% french (hgdp) + 20.5% bantusouthafrica (hgdp) @ 8.93
8 71.8% hungarian (behar) + 28.2% siddi (reich) @ 8.95
9 79.3% french (hgdp) + 20.7% pedi (xing) @ 9
10 80.7% french (hgdp) + 19.3% kaba (henn2012) @ 9.01
11 79.2% french (hgdp) + 20.8% nguni (xing) @ 9.03
12 81.4% french (hgdp) + 18.6% kongo (henn2012) @ 9.03
13 56.6% n-european (xing) + 43.4% dominican (bryc) @ 9.1
14 81.9% french (hgdp) + 18.1% bamoun (henn2012) @ 9.17
15 56.7% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 43.3% dominican (bryc) @ 9.18
16 60.8% french (hgdp) + 39.2% dominican (bryc) @ 9.2
17 78% french (hgdp) + 22% african-american (1000genomes) @ 9.2
18 57.7% slovenian (xing) + 42.3% dominican (bryc) @ 9.23
19 73.6% hungarian (behar) + 26.4% fulani (henn2012) @ 9.28
20 67.6% orcadian (hgdp) + 32.4% siddi (reich) @ 9.49

^^^ These are the Siddi:




About ethnic composition of the island:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...#Ethnic_groups

"Ethnic groups present include people of European, African, Malagasy, Indians and Chinese origin as well as many of mixed race. Local names for these are used: Yabs, Cafres, Malbars and Zarabes (both ethnic groups of Indian origin) and Chinois.

The proportion of people of each ethnicity is not known exactly, since the 1958 constitution bans questions about ethnicity in compulsory censuses in France,[8] and applies in Réunion. Extensive and long-going intermarriage also blurs the issue. Whites are estimated to make up approximately one-quarter of the population, Indians also roughly a quarter, and people of Chinese ancestry to form roughly 3%. The percentages of racially mixed people and those of Afro-Malagasy origins vary wildly between estimates. Some people of Vietnamese ancestry also live on the island, though they are very few in number.[9][10][11]

People of Tamil origin make up the majority of the Indo-Réunionnais people; Gujarati, Bihari and other origins form the remainder of the population. The island's community of Muslims from modern region of Pakistan and North India and elsewhere is also commonly referred to as Zarabes.

Creoles (a name given to those born on the island, of various ethnic origins), make up the majority of the population. Groups that are not creole include people from Metropolitan France (known as Zoreilles) and those from Mayotte and the Comoros."

----------


## Tomenable

LeBrok, please add AV2: 

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551637

----------


## kirrun

Mine:

NE-Euro 68.68
Mediterranean 15.67
Baloch 6.97
Caucasian 4.31
Siberian 2.32
NE-Asian 1.64
Beringian 0.41

----------


## DarknessC

Population	Percent
1	Mediterranean	39.85
2	NE-Euro	29.33
3	Caucasian	14.78
4	SW-Asian	8.05
5	Baloch	3.61
6	W-African	1.63
7	E-African	1.29
8	Papuan	0.6
9	Pygmy	0.53
10	American	0.34

----------


## halfalp

> Population Percent
> 1 Mediterranean 39.85
> 2 NE-Euro 29.33
> 3 Caucasian 14.78
> 4 SW-Asian 8.05
> 5 Baloch 3.61
> 6 W-African 1.63
> 7 E-African 1.29
> 8 Papuan 0.6
> ...


That's very weird results is in't ? Being 29.33 NE-Euro and 39.85 Mediterranean but no sign of Western Euro and French-German, are those made up?

----------


## Remund

New member, my results. Where would the Beringian and San come into play?
NE-Euro 49.34



Mediterranean
30.64


Caucasian
9.79


Baloch
8.17


SW-Asian
1.16



Beringian
0.48


San
0.42

----------


## LeBrok

> New member, my results. Where would the Beringian and San come into play?
> NE-Euro 49.34
> 
> 
> 
> Mediterranean
> 30.64
> 
> 
> ...


Beringian and San are just noise, ignore it. You can check your results against Europeans in post 1.

----------


## Tomenable

Beringian and San can come from minor Native American and Black African ancestry. Or they can be noise.

----------


## Tomenable

Based on *Yang et al. 2011*, White Americans are on average 98% European. Another study claimed 99%.

So minor Non-European admixtures such as minor Native and SSA are not so rare. *Moreau et al. 2013* found out that average White Canadian is 2% Native American. But I know that this figure is higher for Acadians (this includes also Cajuns in the USA), who range from 2% to 30% Amerindian (average is probably about 10%). Acadians are concentrated in New Brunswick (30% of the population) and Nova Scotia (6%). Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Quebec and Prince Edward Island also have Acadians (1% each).

There is also Acadian descent in France, and they could bring Amerindian admixture back to France:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians

French mixed with Amerindians more, because New France had a much smaller White population.

New France also had a deficit of White women, at least according to its first census of 1665/1666:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130517...es/jt1-eng.htm

----------


## Angela

> Based on study Yang et al. 2011, White Americans are on average 98% European.
> 
> So minor Non-European admixtures such as minor Native and SSA are not so rare.
> 
> Moreau et al. 2013 found out that average White Canadian is 2% Native American. But I know that this figure is higher for Acadians (this includes also Cajuns in the USA), who can have between 2% and 30% Amerindian. Acadians are concentrated in New Brunswick (30% of the population), Nova Scotia (6%). Louisiana, Massachusetts , Maine, Quebec and Prince Edward Island also have Acadian populations (1% each).
> 
> There is also Acadian descent in France, and they could bring Amerindian admixture back to France:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Acadians


You can't compare Europeans to Americans. As far as Americans are concerned, in certain states which had high percentages of slaves there were admixed slaves who "passed" when they got light enough. Pretty ironic when you consider southern racial attitudes, especially from the Civil War to the 50s of the 20th century. A lot of these people would have had no idea.

There's nothing comparable in Europe.

----------


## Tomenable

> There's nothing comparable in Europe.


Well, Europe never had so many African slaves. And lack of Amerindian in Europe is self-explanatory.

White Canadians have 0% of SSA admixture, unlike White Americans especially in the south. Easy to explain (no cotton plantations in Canada).

On the other hand, White Canadians - especially the ones of French extraction - tend to score some Amerindian. Also easy to explain, as French colonies always struggled to get immigrants from Europe and they had to rely on alliances with various tribes against the English and against other tribes.

Moreover, New France apparently was a little bit like New Spain in terms of proportions of male to female population, at least at the beginning.

At the time of English-French wars in the 1700s, white population in English colonies was at least 10 times that of whites in French colonies.

----------


## Userius

1
NE-Euro
55.33

2
Mediterranean
26.28

3
Caucasian
9.34

4
Baloch
7.3

5
American
1.36

6
SW-Asian
0.27

7
Papuan
0.11

----------


## davef

Is it me or are these gedmatch calculators totally unreliable when it comes to measuring Neolithic ancestry? Here it's measured using the Mediterranean component. The Mycenaeans score low 30 in that yet they are well over twice that in terms of total Neolithic ancestry based on professional data. Is it based on Sardinians (in one thread I learned they themselves took on a lot of extra whg when they formed). 

To me, the best calculator out there in terms of measuring how much European Neolithic farmer (or like) ancestry you have is the one Kurd released last year (with the west/east Euro, Levant and Iran farmer components). Nothing else out there accurately measures farmer components nearly as well imo.

----------


## LeBrok

> 1
> NE-Euro
> 55.33
> 
> 2
> Mediterranean
> 26.28
> 
> 3
> ...


Definitely North East Europe, very close to Polish admixtures.

----------


## Remund

puntDNAL K10 Ancient Admixture Proportions:

WHG 44.36
ENF 32.21
CHG23.44

No "noise" on this one.

----------


## LeBrok

Finnall

Population


S-Indian
1.38

Baloch
4.98

Caucasian
13.78

NE-Euro
29.43

SE-Asian
0.60

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
0.33

Papuan
-

American
0.44

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
39.89

SW-Asian
7.51

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
0.90

W-African
0.76



The closest match for you, I have in my database, is Portugal. Could be West Spanish, but I don't have Spain by regions.

Your paternal haplogroup could have something to do with Celts or Romans actually or some other emigrants to Iberia from these regions, but it's only 2 percent of your DNA.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_....shtml#R1b-S28

----------


## canadienne

Population 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	11.74
Caucasian	29.88
NE-Euro	22.94
SE-Asian	- 
Siberian	3.39
NE-Asian	1.17
Papuan	1.00
American	- 
Beringian	0.69
Mediterranean	19.24
SW-Asian	9.81
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	0.07

----------


## canadienne

LeBrok;

I'm waiting your considerate.

Thank you.

----------


## LeBrok

> Population 
> S-Indian - 
> Baloch 11.74
> Caucasian 29.88
> NE-Euro 22.94
> SE-Asian - 
> Siberian 3.39
> NE-Asian 1.17
> Papuan 1.00
> ...


I think you are Bulgarian/Turkish mix.

----------


## canadienne

> I think you are Bulgarian/Turkish mix.


I'm a Balkan Turk from Thessaloniki. Also i have a Albanian ancestry. Good analyze.

----------


## LeBrok

> I'm a Balkan Turk from Thessaloniki. Also i have a Albanian ancestry. Good analyze.


Thanks canadienne

----------


## tortieflower

Me:
NE-Euro 48.23
Mediterranean 31.37
Baloch 9.38
Caucasian 8.44
SW-Asian 1.21
S-Indian 0.61
Beringian 0.46
American 0.15
Pygmy 0.14

My mom:
NE-Euro 47.37
Mediterranean 29.39
Caucasian 10.57
Baloch 8.86
SW-Asian 1.12
NE-Asian 0.75
S-Indian 0.68
American 0.45
San 0.43
Pygmy 0.22
Beringian 0.17

My husband:
NE-Euro 45.16
Mediterranean 30.01
Caucasian 10.37
Baloch 7.63
W-African 3.46
Papuan 1.05
E-African 0.88
American 0.61
SW-Asian 0.44
Pygmy 0.30
San 0.07

My mom is quite noisy lol, a little noisier than me. My husband not so much. His noise is legit ancestry within the past 10 generations.

----------


## Ghani

Population


S-Indian
4.95

Baloch
26.27

Caucasian
34.29

NE-Euro
4.06

SE-Asian
1.71

Siberian
2.64

NE-Asian
4.56

Papuan
0.35

American
0.38

Beringian
0.95

Mediterranean
5.51

SW-Asian
12.37

San
0.58

E-African
0.27

Pygmy
0.41

W-African
0.69

----------


## Joey37

Me-
1NE-Euro 45.04
2Mediterranean 31.78
3Caucasian 12.05
4Baloch 9.24
5American 0.98
6Siberian 0.32
7NE-Asian 0.26
8Beringian 0.17
9SW-Asian 0.15
Closest population match-French

----------


## mitty

My Harappa world results:

N.E. European - 51.42

Mediterranean - 30.29

Baloch - 9.73

Caucasian - 7.68

----------


## LeBrok

You can check tables on page one to find out how you fit in the world.

----------


## RobbieMink

My harappa results
Population 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	9.98
Caucasian	6.72
NE-Euro	47.65
SE-Asian	- 
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	- 
American	- 
Beringian	0.40
Mediterranean	32.55
SW-Asian	2.57
San	- 
E-African	0.09
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## LeBrok

> My harappa results
> Population 
> S-Indian - 
> Baloch 9.98
> Caucasian 6.72
> NE-Euro 47.65
> SE-Asian - 
> Siberian - 
> NE-Asian - 
> ...


Everything but elevated level of SW Asian is typically English. I think, 3-4 generations back you had an ancestors from South Europe. Or 5-6 generations ago from Near East or North Africa.

----------


## LeBrok

> Me-
> 1NE-Euro 45.04
> 2Mediterranean 31.78
> 3Caucasian 12.05
> 4Baloch 9.24
> 5American 0.98
> 6Siberian 0.32
> 7NE-Asian 0.26
> 8Beringian 0.17
> ...


North France

----------


## RobbieMink

Thanks very much interesting..

----------


## RobbieMink

My Fathers results. the sw Asian is 1.5% and my mothers has 0.8% sw Asian 
so why have I got higher reading.

----------


## RobbieMink

My Dads results 
Population 
S-Indian	- 
Baloch	8.35
Caucasian	8.16
NE-Euro	48.43
SE-Asian	- 
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	- 
American	- 
Beringian	1.05
Mediterranean	32.75
SW-Asian	1.22
San	- 
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African

----------


## RobbieMink

My Mums results 
Population 
S-Indian	0.46
Baloch	10.38
Caucasian	7.00
NE-Euro	47.11
SE-Asian	- 
Siberian	- 
NE-Asian	- 
Papuan	0.08
American	1.08
Beringian	- 
Mediterranean	33.22
SW-Asian	0.08
San	0.57
E-African	- 
Pygmy	- 
W-African	-

----------


## LeBrok

> My Mums results 
> Population 
> S-Indian 0.46
> Baloch 10.38
> Caucasian 7.00
> NE-Euro 47.11
> SE-Asian - 
> Siberian - 
> NE-Asian - 
> ...


Actually it says 0.08% not 0.8%. We might have a mystery here. ;)

Your mother's run looks typical british. Your father however is partially looking like North German, or some interesting combination from his parents.

----------


## noman

Zack Ajmal, who the founder of this project stated on his blog that he would not be working on this project again. He also mentioned that Razib Khan is continuing the similar project. Take a look: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/...otype-project/

----------


## RobbieMink

Thanks very much, your spot on I think my Father Great Grandfather was half North German and the rest where British as far as I can tell.
but his maternal side the majority are British but his great grandmother doesn't show her surname.

----------


## Adam1971

Hi - Hoping someone can help me. Total newbie and my appologies in advance if I am posting in the wrong spot. I did a DNA test with 23&me, I uploaded raw data to Gedmatch. I then ran my HarappaWorld admixture z- below are my results. trying to figure out what this means? on 23&me it stated I was 99.7% South Asian and .03% Broadly European. As a result I dont know how to interpret my admixture

Population


S-Indian
31.57 Pct

Baloch
39.26 Pct

Caucasian
15.18 Pct

NE-Euro
10.43 Pct

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
0.45 Pct

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
-

American
0.49 Pct

Beringian
0.30 Pct

Mediterranean
0.37 Pct

SW-Asian
0.85 Pct

San
0.32 Pct

E-African
0.78 Pct

Pygmy
-

W-African

----------


## LeBrok

> Hi - Hoping someone can help me. Total newbie and my appologies in advance if I am posting in the wrong spot. I did a DNA test with 23&me, I uploaded raw data to Gedmatch. I then ran my HarappaWorld admixture z- below are my results. trying to figure out what this means? on 23&me it stated I was 99.7% South Asian and .03% Broadly European. As a result I dont know how to interpret my admixture
> 
> Population
> 
> 
> S-Indian
> 31.57 Pct
> 
> Baloch
> ...


By numbers you fit Punjab or Pakistan-Afghanistan area.

----------


## Duarte

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
39.04

2
NE-Euro
28.92

3
Caucasian
12.6

4
Baloch
5.63

5
SW-Asian
4.78

6
W-African
4.63

7
E-African
1.35

8
American
0.84

9
Pygmy
0.81

10
Papuan
0.72

11
NE-Asian
0.4

12
SE-Asian
0.3

13
S-Indian
-

14
Siberian
-

15
Beringian
-

16
San
-


I'm from the Southeast Region of Brazil, city of Belo Horizonte.

----------


## LeBrok

> #
> Population
> Percent
> 
> 1
> Mediterranean
> 39.04
> 
> 2
> ...


I'd say that your origin is definitely Iberian with 5 percent sub saharan African admixture. I have too few samples to pinpoint a region from Iberia. I'd guess more Spanish than Portuguese though.

----------


## Duarte

> I'd say that your origin is definitely Iberian with 5 percent sub saharan African admixture. I have too few samples to pinpoint a region from Iberia. I'd guess more Spanish than Portuguese though.


Thank you for the attention and courtesy of reply, Dr. LeBrok. What you say seems to confirm the impression that I had when I saw the results of the autosomal tests I did on MyHeritage and the Family Tree DNA-FTDNA.Now that I have the answer of an expert like you, my suspicious became an almost absolute assurance. Warm Greetings.
Duarte

----------


## Ygorcs

> Thank you for the attention and courtesy of reply, Dr. LeBrok. What you say seems to confirm the impression that I had when I saw the results of the autosomal tests I did on MyHeritage and the Family Tree DNA-FTDNA.Now that I have the answer of an expert like you, my suspicious became an almost absolute assurance. Warm Greetings.
> Duarte


If I remember your results and your account of your family history correctly, I was under the impression that the fact that some of the calculators estimated Spanish_Extremadura (that is, the westernmost part of Spain bordering Portugal) as the closest fit to your ancestry can just be a misleading consequence of the specific Portuguese + Spanish mix (did you say one of your female ancestors were from Andalucia?) that contributed to most of your genetic makeup. Is it perhaps possible that Extremadurans are kind of Portuguese-shifted in comparison with Castillians and Andalusians and therefore an Andalusian + Portuguese mixed person like you end up being closer to some western Spanish population? Do you know where exactly your Portuguese ancestors came from (I find it a hard task as the Portuguese immigrants came from everywhere in the country, unless your ancestry in Brazil is very recent and mostly unmixed with "old stock" Brazilians)?

----------


## Duarte

> If I remember your results and your account of your family history correctly, I was under the impression that the fact that some of the calculators estimated Spanish_Extremadura (that is, the westernmost part of Spain bordering Portugal) as the closest fit to your ancestry can just be a misleading consequence of the specific Portuguese + Spanish mix (did you say one of your female ancestors were from Andalucia?) that contributed to most of your genetic makeup. Is it perhaps possible that Extremadurans are kind of Portuguese-shifted in comparison with Castillians and Andalusians and therefore an Andalusian + Portuguese mixed person like you end up being closer to some western Spanish population? Do you know where exactly your Portuguese ancestors came from (I find it a hard task as the Portuguese immigrants came from everywhere in the country, unless your ancestry in Brazil is very recent and mostly unmixed with "old stock" Brazilians)?


Hello Yorcs,
The ancestry of my maternal great-grandmother's family is certain. She is portuguese from the Minho Region, bordering Galicia.
Her husband, my maternal great-grandfather, is son of Andaluzes.
In this sense I estimate that my maternal grandmother was 50% Portuguese (from Minho) and 50% Spanish (Andalusian).
My maternal grandfather is of colonial Portuguese origin (uncertain origin in Portugal). In the same way, the whole of my paternal family (uncertain origin in Portugal).
From my paternal family, and from my maternal grandfather's family, probably, comes my SSA DNA (probably slaves of Yoruba origin comimg from State of Bahia to work in the gold mines of the State of Minas Gerais).
Thanks by reply.

----------


## TardisBlue

*Me (French - Italian):*

Population Percent

1 Mediterranean 31.3
2 NE-Euro 30.63
3 Caucasian 20.36
4 SW-Asian 9.46
5 Baloch 6.69
6 Siberian 0.77
7 S-Indian 0.6
8 Pygmy 0.18

*Single Population Sharing:*

Population (source) Distance

1 italian (hgdp) 7.14
2 tuscan (hapmap) 9.67
3 tuscan (hgdp) 9.87
4 tuscan (1000genomes) 10.16

*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance

1 73.3% french (hgdp)+ 26.7% samaritian (behar) 1.76
2 55.1% french (hgdp)+ 44.9% ashkenazy-jew (behar) 2.03
3 61.2% french (hgdp)+ 38.8% sephardic-jew (behar) 2.18
4 51.6% french (hgdp)+ 48.4% ashkenazi (harappa) 2.27
5 50.4% british (1000genomes)+ 49.6% sephardic-jew (behar) 2.72
6 51.8% utahn-white (1000genomes)+ 48.2% sephardic-jew (behar) 2.75

*4-ancestors oracle:*

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% ashkenazi_harappa +50% french_hgdp 2.497094

Using 3 populations approximation:

1 50% ashkenazi_harappa +25% spaniard_1000genomes +25% utahn-white_hapmap 1.499977

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 basque_hgdp + n-european_xing + romanian-a_behar + samaritian_behar 0.736129
2 basque_hgdp + bulgarian_yunusbayev + samaritian_behar + utahn-white_hapmap 0.827741
3 basque_hgdp + bulgarian_yunusbayev + n-european_xing + samaritian_behar 0.915656
4 n-european_xing + romanian-a_behar + samaritian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 0.999701
5 bulgarian_yunusbayev + samaritian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 + utahn-white_hapmap 1.020037

*My mother (French):*

Population Percent

1 NE-Euro 45.55
2 Mediterranean 32.97
3 Caucasian 10.07
4 Baloch 6.38
5 SW-Asian 4.4
6 E-African 0.25
7 NE-Asian 0.13
8 American 0.13
9 Papuan 0.12

*Single Population Sharing:*

Population (source) Distance

1 french (hgdp) 5.32
2 utahn-white (1000genomes) 8.09
3 n-european (xing) 8.58
4 utahn-white (hapmap) 9.34

*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance

1 57.8% spaniard (1000genomes)+ 42.2% belorussian (behar) 1.26
2 52.5% spaniard (1000genomes)+ 47.5% ukranian (yunusbayev) 2.23
3 69.9% slovenian (xing)+ 30.1% spain-basc (henn2012) 2.38
4 63.3% spaniard (1000genomes)+ 36.7% lithuanian (behar) 2.39

----------


## Davidtab

These are my results, I am Galician, northwestern Spain:

Population


S-Indian
2.18

Baloch
5.41

Caucasian
15.84

NE-Euro
30.64

SE-Asian
-

Siberian
-

NE-Asian
-

Papuan
1.05

American
0.35

Beringian
-

Mediterranean
38.42

SW-Asian
5.80

San
-

E-African
-

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.28

----------


## Carlos

_These are my results. I'm Andalusian. Western Andalusia.
_*# Population Percent

1 Mediterranean 40´53
2 NE-Euro 33´16
3 Caucasian 12´19
4 Baloch 6´23
5 SW-Asian 4´71 
6 E-African 1´37
7 Siberian 0´81
8 W-African 0´4
9 San 0´39
10 NE-Asian 0´17
11 S-Indian 0´03
*

----------


## LeBrok

Thanks guys, it would be nice to have more samples from Spain. Anyone else?
I have 7 from Portugal but only 2 from Spain, and already somewhat different than Spanish "default" in Harappa.

----------


## LeBrok

I just noticed how Basque samples, I have, are so much different than modern Spanish and Portuguese ones. 

Europeans
# of samples
S-Indian
Baloch
Caucasian
NE-Euro
SE-Asian
Siberian
NE-Asian
Papuan
American
Beringian
Mediterranean
SW-Asian
San
E-African
Pygmy
W-African


South France
hrvclv
0
7
12
39
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
4
0
0
0
0
100

Portugal
7
0
5
13
31
0
0
0
0
0
0
37
8
0
1
0
1
100

Spain
2
1
6
14
32
0
0
0
1
0
0
39
5
0
1
0
0
100

Basque
4
1
6
1
33
0
0
0
0
0
0
58
1
0
0
0
0
100

Italy, NE
7
0
7
20
34
0
0
0
0
0
0
31
6
0
0
0
0
100




Look at Caucasian and SW-Asian. Basque has almost nothing. I think the Basques hid away from some sort of Anatolian/Armenian/Caucasian migration of Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age. Their Mediterranean is much higher. Spanish Late Neolithic sample had Mediterranean at 63 (highest in all Europe in place and time)
Here is an average guy from Chalcolithic/Bronze Age Iberia:

Average


Spain
Chalc/Bronze

Run Time
 7.57

S-Indian
 -

Baloch
 -

Caucasian
 4.80

NE-Euro
 26.53

SE-Asian
 -

Siberian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

Papuan
 -

American
 -

Beringian
 -

Mediterranean
 64.19

SW-Asian
 3.49

San
 -

E-African
 -

Pygmy
 -

W-African
 0.79



It is closer to modern Basque than to modern Spanish and Portuguese.

----------


## LeBrok

I've run samples through modeling and found the best fit for Modern Basque. It's pretty close, I took the average Bronze Age Iberian and mixed it with Bronze Age Steppe, sample from Samara 2000 BC, but it is similar to Sintashta and Andronovo. 70% of Iberian Bronze and 30% of Steppe Bronze.

First column is for Bronze Age Spain, second for Steppe Bronze Age, third is for combining first two with proportions 7:3 (the calculated experimental values), and 4th is Real life modern Basque sample.
As you can see that last two are very close, therefore the two components from Bronze Age and their proportions might be true.


0.7


0.3







 Average


 M370663
 I0419

Modeled


Modern


 Spain
 Chalc/Bronze
 Samara, Potapovka, R1a-M417>Z93
 2200-1900 BC
Basque


Basque


 Run Time
 8

 Run time
 6

Run time


Run Time


 S-Indian
 -

 S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
1

 Baloch
 -

 Baloch
 22

Baloch
 7

Baloch
6

 Caucasian
 5

 Caucasian
 1

Caucasian
 4

Caucasian
1

 NE-Euro
 27

 NE-Euro
 53

NE-Euro
 34

NE-Euro
32

 SE-Asian
 -

 SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
-

 Siberian
 -

 Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

Siberian
-

 NE-Asian
 -

 NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

 Papuan
 -

 Papuan
 -

Papuan
 -

Papuan
-

 American
 -

 American
 0

American
 0

American
-

 Beringian
 -

 Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
-

 Mediterranean
 64

 Mediterranean
 24

Mediterranean
 52

Mediterranean
56

 SW-Asian
 3

 SW-Asian
 -

SW-Asian
 2

SW-Asian
2

 San
 -

 San
 -

San
 -

San
-

 E-African
 -

 E-African
 -

E-African
 -

E-African
-

 Pygmy
 -

 Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
 -

Pygmy
-

 W-African
 1

 W-African
 0

W-African
 1

W-African




I'm also getting fairly close numbers if the Bronze Invasion came from Lusatian Culture, though half of Baloch is missing. Further on the list was Ireland Bronze and Unetice. So the best much is with Steppe Bronze, so far.

I think that modern Basque might be a good proxy for Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Iberian. Same way as Sardinian person is a good proxy for Early Neolithic European.

----------


## LeBrok

Let's assume that in Early/Mid Iron Age all Iberians looked genetically like today's Basques. The question is what genetic/migratory events produced today's Spaniards and Portuguese?

I played with numbers for some time yesterday and this is the closest model I came with. It has a big chance to be right based on known historical events.

There are 3 components:
1. Early/Mid Iron Age Iberian/Basque like - 60%
2. Modern South Italian/ Core of Roman Empire proxy - 30%. Possible genetic contribution of Roman Empire to Romanization of Iberian peninsula.
3. Modern North German/ Germanic tribes proxy - 10%. Possible genetic contribution of Germanic Tribes, the Visigoths, Suevi and Vandals.

4. Fourth column are the calculated values for hypothetical modeled Iberian.
5. Last column is for real life average Spaniard.

As we can see the last two columns are very similar giving validity to the model.



0.6


0.3


0.1







 Iron Age proxy

 Average





Modeled


Modern


 Basque


 Italy, South

North German

Spanish


Spanish


 Run time


 Total run time
 -

Run time


Run time


Run Time


 S-Indian
 -

 S-Indian
  -

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
 -

S-Indian
1

 Baloch
 7

 Baloch
 8

Baloch
 9

Baloch
 7

Baloch
6

 Caucasian
 4

 Caucasian
 32

Caucasian
 8

Caucasian
 13

Caucasian
14

 NE-Euro
 34

 NE-Euro
 17

NE-Euro
 53

NE-Euro
 31

NE-Euro
32

 SE-Asian
 -

 SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
 -

SE-Asian
-

 Siberian
 -

 Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

Siberian
 -

Siberian
-

 NE-Asian
 -

 NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
 -

NE-Asian
-

 Papuan
 -

 Papuan
 -

Papuan
 -

Papuan
 -

Papuan
-

 American
 0

 American
 0

American
 -

American
 0

American
-

 Beringian
 -

 Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
 -

Beringian
-

 Mediterranean
 52

 Mediterranean
 27

Mediterranean
 27

Mediterranean
 42

Mediterranean
39

 SW-Asian
 2

 SW-Asian
 13

SW-Asian
 1

SW-Asian
 5

SW-Asian
5

San
0

San
0.0175

San
0

San
 0

San
-

E-African
0

E-African
1

E-African
0

E-African
 0

E-African
1

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
0

Pygmy
  -

Pygmy
-

W-African
0.634

W-African
0.0775

W-African
0

W-African
 0

W-African



PS. Look at post above for Basque/Iron Age Iberian for compositions. And two posts above for Late Bronze Age Iberian.

----------


## Davidtab

Very interesting, but where 1% South Indian and 1% E-African came from in modern Iberians?

----------


## LeBrok

> Very interesting, but where 1% South Indian and 1% E-African came from in modern Iberians?


East African might be the Muslim/Arab invasion plus some noise level. It also pops up in South Italians and Malta. West African countries like Libya and Morocco have it at 10%. 
South Indian is probably all noise and it lingers in few European populations without historical connections. Everything around 1 percent and below could be treated as noise.

----------


## Aspen

These are my results:

1. NE-Euro 41.16
2. Mediterranean 25.44
3. W-African 11.41
4. Caucasian 9.23
5. Baluch 9.19
6. American 1.11
7. SW-Asian 1.05

----------


## Armonia

My results 
I come from Tuscany - Italy

Baloch	7.10
Caucasian	23.81 
NE-Euro	28.00 
SE-Asian	0.76 
Siberian	0.36 
Papuan	0.98 
American	0.13 
Mediterranean	32.58 
SW-Asian	6.07 
Pygmy	0.21

----------


## halfalp

Actually i need to edit my latest post, because i saw something. So i just discovered the MDLP project K11 and i would want to know how it is really relatable? And how actually interprete the results?

----------


## Duarte

> Let's assume that in Early/Mid Iron Age all Iberians looked genetically like today's Basques. The question is what genetic/migratory events produced today's Spaniards and Portuguese?
> 
> I played with numbers for some time yesterday and this is the closest model I came with. It has a big chance to be right based on known historical events.
> 
> There are 3 components:
> 1. Early/Mid Iron Age Iberian/Basque like - 60%
> 2. Modern South Italian/ Core of Roman Empire proxy - 30%. Possible genetic contribution of Roman Empire to Romanization of Iberian peninsula.
> 3. Modern North German/ Germanic tribes proxy - 10%. Possible genetic contribution of Germanic Tribes, the Visigoths, Suevi and Vandals.
> 
> ...


Hello LeBrok.
First of all I would like to greet you for sharing the conclusions of your studies with all of us. In fact a valuable contribution to the understanding of the ethnic composition of the modern Iberian population. I have always shared the idea that the contribution of the Germanic peoples and the Romans had been significant for the formation of modern Iberians, contrary to the sense of many scholars. Their conclusions support this view.
I share with you my results of Oracle 4, obtained in the GEDmatch Eurogenes K13 (Using 4 populations approximation) calculator that are headed towards your conclusions.
Although my sample differs slightly from the average of the typical Iberians, since it contains 4.88% of SSA DNA, I believe that this does not affect the gradient of the results, which show, on average, 50% Basque, 25% Germanic and 25% of Tunisia or from other regions of the Maghreb (Algerian or Mozabite Berber). I believe that the displacement from southern Italy to Tunisia or other regions of the Maghreb is due to SSA DNA's greatest contribution to my overall ethnic composition.
However, we can not fail to consider that during the Roman period the area of ​​present-day Tunisia had a huge development. The economy, especially during the Roman Empire, thrived on account of agriculture. Called the "barn of the Empire", the area of ​​Tunisia and Tripolitania, according to one estimate, produced one million tons of grain per year, a quarter of what was exported by the Empire. Additional crops included beans, figs, grapes and other fruits. Roughly, I can consider this as a Roman contribution. LOL.
Greetings and congratulations for the conclusions.
Duarte.
*
Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
North_Atlantic
37.44

2
West_Med
28.54

3
East_Med
11.17

4
Baltic
8.95

5
Sub-Saharan
4.88

6
West_Asian
2.32

7
Northeast_African
2.29

8
Red_Sea
1.67

9
Amerindian
1.42


**








*
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.875919
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.084557
3 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.363086
4 Spanish_Galicia @ 6.723697
5 Spanish_Murcia @ 6.738213
6 Portuguese @ 6.779630
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 6.817693
8 Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.959575
9 Spanish_Valencia @ 7.106572
10 Spanish_Cataluna @ 7.740384
11 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.586516
12 Southwest_French @ 9.309721
13 North_Italian @ 13.181855
14 French @ 14.848392
15 Tuscan @ 19.700567
16 French_Basque @ 19.831991
17 South_Dutch @ 21.213432
18 West_German @ 21.421259
19 Southeast_English @ 25.737713
20 Southwest_English @ 25.943127

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Spanish_Andalucia +50% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.562061

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Tunisian +25% West_German @ 4.243699

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian + West_German @ 4.243699
2 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.309890
3 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + West_German @ 4.334445
4 Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.384938
5 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.396873
6 French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Serbian @ 4.468435
7 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French @ 4.478426
8 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.521615
9 French_Basque + French_Basque + South_Dutch + Tunisian @ 4.522835
10 French + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.588130
11 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Tunisian @ 4.598396
12 Algerian + Austrian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.606368
13 East_German + French_Basque + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber @ 4.606632
14 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + West_German @ 4.647876
15 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 4.655926
16 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + South_Dutch + Southwest_French @ 4.658337
17 French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Southwest_French + West_German @ 4.662471
18 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Tunisian @ 4.713262
19 French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian + Tunisian @ 4.717680
20 French + French_Basque + Mozabite_Berber + Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.717741

----------


## Carlos

My life has taken a 360 turn because it's late, there are trains that only pass once, I'm sorry, it's too late.

----------


## LeBrok

> Hello LeBrok.
> First of all I would like to greet you for sharing the conclusions of your studies with all of us. In fact a valuable contribution to the understanding of the ethnic composition of the modern Iberian population. I have always shared the idea that the contribution of the Germanic peoples and the Romans had been significant for the formation of modern Iberians, contrary to the sense of many scholars. Their conclusions support this view.
> I share with you my results of Oracle 4, obtained in the GEDmatch Eurogenes K13 (Using 4 populations approximation) calculator that are headed towards your conclusions.
> Although my sample differs slightly from the average of the typical Iberians, since it contains 4.88% of SSA DNA, I believe that this does not affect the gradient of the results, which show, on average, 50% Basque, 25% Germanic and 25% of Tunisia or from other regions of the Maghreb (Algerian or Mozabite Berber). I believe that the displacement from southern Italy to Tunisia or other regions of the Maghreb is due to SSA DNA's greatest contribution to my overall ethnic composition.
> However, we can not fail to consider that during the Roman period the area of ​​present-day Tunisia had a huge development. The economy, especially during the Roman Empire, thrived on account of agriculture. Called the "barn of the Empire", the area of ​​Tunisia and Tripolitania, according to one estimate, produced one million tons of grain per year, a quarter of what was exported by the Empire. Additional crops included beans, figs, grapes and other fruits. Roughly, I can consider this as a Roman contribution. LOL.
> Greetings and congratulations for the conclusions.
> Duarte.


I'm glad you share my conclusion. I went where the numbers has lead me. With time and more samples we will know better.

----------


## Pan

Greek with parents from Thessaly and Central Greece:

Admix Results (sorted):


#	Population	Percent
1	Caucasian	33.96
2	NE-Euro	27.6
3	Mediterranean	23.53
4	SW-Asian	7.87
5	Baloch	5.75
6	Papuan	0.99
7	Pygmy	0.21
8	San	0.07


Single Population Sharing:


#	Population (source)	Distance
1	bulgarian (yunusbayev)	9.24
2	ashkenazi (harappa)	9.35
3	tuscan (1000genomes)	9.69
4	tuscan (hgdp)	10.19
5	tuscan (hapmap)	10.84
6	romanian-a (behar)	11.12
7	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	12.8
8	italian (hgdp)	16.79
9	turk-aydin (hodoglugil)	18.01
10	sephardic-jew (behar)	19.62
11	morocco-jew (behar)	21.31
12	turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)	24.04
13	turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)	25.34
14	cypriot (behar)	25.95
15	turk (behar)	26.19
16	hungarian (behar)	26.37
17	nogai (yunusbayev)	26.53
18	romanian-b (behar)	26.63
19	stalskoe (xing)	26.98
20	slovenian (xing)	27.6

----------


## Carlos

*HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle**Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Mediterranean
40.53

2
NE-Euro
33.16

3
Caucasian
12.19

4
Baloch
6.23

5
SW-Asian
4.71

6
E-African
1.37


*

Using 1 population approximation:
1 spaniard_behar @ 4.192164
2 spaniard_1000genomes @ 5.461362
3 french_hgdp @ 11.024232
4 italian_hgdp @ 11.484737
5 spain-basc_henn2012 @ 19.923342
6 tuscan_hapmap @ 20.075504
7 tuscan_hgdp @ 20.741625
8 utahn-white_1000genomes @ 21.305820
9 tuscan_1000genomes @ 21.413197
10 basque_hgdp @ 21.718237
11 british_1000genomes @ 22.084120
12 romanian-a_behar @ 22.236473
13 puerto-rican_1000genomes @ 22.834148
14 hungarian_behar @ 22.981686
15 n-european_xing @ 23.255035
16 utahn-white_hapmap @ 23.500351
17 serbian_harappa @ 23.748753
18 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 24.170973
19 orcadian_hgdp @ 25.183092
20 slovenian_xing @ 25.215593

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% basque_hgdp +50% romanian-a_behar @ 3.103465


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% basque_hgdp +25% morocco-jew_behar +25% ukranian_yunusbayev @ 1.715293


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
1 french_hgdp + italian_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + spaniard_1000genomes @ 1.584900
2 ashkenazy-jew_behar + basque_hgdp + slovenian_xing + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.712517
3 basque_hgdp + basque_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar + ukranian_yunusbayev @ 1.715293
4 ashkenazy-jew_behar + basque_hgdp + basque_hgdp + slovenian_xing @ 1.717854
5 french_hgdp + italian_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + spaniard_behar @ 1.775419
6 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + hungarian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.775457
7 basque_hgdp + basque_hgdp + sephardic-jew_behar + ukranian_yunusbayev @ 1.792903
8 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + slovenian_xing + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.838932
9 ashkenazi_harappa + hungarian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.849397
10 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 1.887787
11 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + basque_hgdp + slovenian_xing @ 1.887826
12 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + basque_hgdp + hungarian_behar @ 1.891542
13 ashkenazy-jew_behar + slovenian_xing + spain-basc_henn2012 + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.896737
14 ashkenazy-jew_behar + basque_hgdp + hungarian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.911557
15 basque_hgdp + morocco-jew_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 + ukranian_yunusbayev @ 1.921234
16 ashkenazi_harappa + basque_hgdp + british_1000genomes + spaniard_1000genomes @ 1.941660
17 mordovian_yunusbayev + sardinian_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + spaniard_1000genomes @ 1.945382
18 ashkenazy-jew_behar + hungarian_behar + spain-basc_henn2012 + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 1.993223
19 ashkenazi_harappa + slovenian_xing + spain-basc_henn2012 + spain-basc_henn2012 @ 2.008394
20 mordovian_yunusbayev + sardinian_hgdp + spaniard_1000genomes + spaniard_behar @ 2.014917

----------


## LeBrok

> *HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle*
> 
> *Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> #
> Population
> Percent
> 
> 1
> ...


Are your parents from same region of Spain? If yes which one, please.

----------


## Carlos

^^^

My father and my mother are from a town in the province of Cádiz. My mother's oldest ancestress was from Grazalema and her great-grandmother's father was from Parauta (Malaga). The oldest paternal ancestor of my father was from Montejaque (Málaga) and that of his mother from a village near Alahurin de la Torre (Málaga) Torrealquería I remember.

----------


## Carlos

This is the geographical area of my father and mother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_C%C3%A1diz
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_C%C3%A1diz




Share the result of your conclusion.

----------


## Tomenable

GEDmatch kits of many ancient samples from Poland and surroundings:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...hbouring-areas

----------


## voloh

Admix Results (sorted):
#
Population
Percent

1
NE-Euro
39,98

2
Mediterranean
28,32

3
Caucasian
18,25

4
Baloch
7,22

5
SW-Asian
4,33

6
Siberian
1,13

7
Papuan
0,57

8
American
0,19



Single Population Sharing:
#
Population (source)
Distance

1
romanian-a (behar)
9,01

2
hungarian (behar)
9,7

3
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
11,3

4
french (hgdp)
11,35

5
slovenian (xing)
11,7

6
italian (hgdp)
13,59

7
n-european (xing)
16,03

8
utahn-white (1000genomes)
16,25

9
utahn-white (hapmap)
17,15

10
tuscan (hapmap)
17,73

11
spaniard (behar)
17,83

12
tuscan (hgdp)
17,9

13
british (1000genomes)
18,01

14
tuscan (1000genomes)
18,22

15
spaniard (1000genomes)
19,09

16
ukranian (yunusbayev)
20,47

17
orcadian (hgdp)
20,55

18
ashkenazi (harappa)
25,27

19
mordovian (yunusbayev)
26,27

20
belorussian (behar)
26,29



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance

1

55,9%
romanian-a (behar)
+
44,1%
french (hgdp)
at
1,67

2

66%
italian (hgdp)
+
34%
mordovian (yunusbayev)
at
1,72

3

64,9%
hungarian (behar)
+
35,1%
tuscan (hapmap)
at
1,81

4

50,1%
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
+
49,9%
french (hgdp)
at
2,01

5

58,6%
hungarian (behar)
+
41,4%
italian (hgdp)
at
2,02

6

60,3%
italian (hgdp)
+
39,7%
ukranian (yunusbayev)
at
2,09

7

65,7%
hungarian (behar)
+
34,3%
tuscan (1000genomes)
at
2,18

8

53,9%
slovenian (xing)
+
46,1%
italian (hgdp)
at
2,23

9

68,7%
italian (hgdp)
+
31,3%
russian (hgdp)
at
2,27

10

67,2%
romanian-a (behar)
+
32,8%
british (1000genomes)
at
2,29

11

61,8%
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
+
38,2%
british (1000genomes)
at
2,34

12

73,5%
n-european (xing)
+
26,5%
cypriot (behar)
at
2,36

13

61,4%
n-european (xing)
+
38,6%
ashkenazi (harappa)
at
2,44

14

64,9%
romanian-a (behar)
+
35,1%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
at
2,46

15

59,3%
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
+
40,7%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
at
2,57

16

60,6%
slovenian (xing)
+
39,4%
tuscan (hapmap)
at
2,61

17

72,2%
utahn-white (hapmap)
+
27,8%
cypriot (behar)
at
2,65

18

65,7%
tuscan (hapmap)
+
34,3%
lithuanian (behar)
at
2,65

19

77,5%
utahn-white (1000genomes)
+
22,5%
druze (hgdp)
at
2,68

20

66,8%
italian (hgdp)
+
33,2%
russian (behar)
at
2,73



*oracle 4 works better for me:*

Least-squares method,

Using 1 population approximation:
1 serbian_harappa at 8,760172
2 romanian-a_behar at 9,946224
3 hungarian_behar at 10,642172
4 french_hgdp at 12,429471
5 bulgarian_yunusbayev at 12,515975
6 slovenian_xing at 12,824835
7 italian_hgdp at 14,818053
8 n-european_xing at 17,801136
9 utahn-white_1000genomes at 18,036180
10 utahn-white_hapmap at 19,052050
11 spaniard_behar at 19,269522
12 tuscan_hapmap at 19,592007
13 tuscan_hgdp at 19,799326
14 british_1000genomes at 19,994846
15 tuscan_1000genomes at 20,165638
16 spaniard_1000genomes at 20,645649
17 ukranian_yunusbayev at 22,415787
18 orcadian_hgdp at 22,848253
19 ashkenazi_harappa at 27,938974
20 mordovian_yunusbayev at 28,640678

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% bulgarian_yunusbayev +50% french_hgdp at 2,095524


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% tuscan_hapmap +25% ukranian_yunusbayev +25% utahn-white_hapmap at 1,060937


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 orcadian_hgdp + tuscan_1000genomes + tuscan_1000genomes + ukranian_yunusbayev at 0,993646
2 tuscan_hapmap + tuscan_hgdp + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap at 1,025296
3 tuscan_hapmap + tuscan_hapmap + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap at 1,060937
4 british_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_1000genomes at 1,075627
5 tuscan_hgdp + tuscan_hgdp + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap at 1,078473
6 hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hapmap + utahn-white_1000genomes at 1,104432
7 orcadian_hgdp + tuscan_1000genomes + tuscan_hgdp + ukranian_yunusbayev at 1,106740
8 tuscan_1000genomes + tuscan_hapmap + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap at 1,107176
9 hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes at 1,112130
10 british_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hgdp at 1,120447
11 british_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_hapmap at 1,153988
12 mordovian_yunusbayev + serbian_harappa + spaniard_behar + tuscan_hapmap at 1,163233
13 tuscan_1000genomes + tuscan_hgdp + ukranian_yunusbayev + utahn-white_hapmap at 1,164900
14 hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + tuscan_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes at 1,165334
15 hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + serbian_harappa + spaniard_behar at 1,171497
16 british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + hungarian_behar + tuscan_hapmap at 1,178269
17 hungarian_behar + romanian-a_behar + serbian_harappa + spaniard_1000genomes at 1,183230
18 british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + hungarian_behar + tuscan_hgdp at 1,187933
19 bulgarian_yunusbayev + hungarian_behar + orcadian_hgdp + tuscan_1000genomes at 1,190704
20 orcadian_hgdp + tuscan_1000genomes + tuscan_hapmap + ukranian_yunusbayev at 1,199835

----------


## ntindeo

From _Podișul Getic

__NE-Euro ............... 32,43% 
Mediterranean ...... 27,55% 
Caucasian ............ 23,14% 
Baloch ................. 7,16% 
SW-Asian ............. 6,17% 
SE-Asian .............. 1,68% 
Siberian ............... 0,59% 
W-African ............. 0,5% 
San ..................... 0,4% 
American ............. 0,21% 
S-Indian .............. 0,1% 
Papuan ................ 0,06%_

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## ntindeo

> From _Podișul Getic
> 
> __NE-Euro ............... 32,43% 
> Mediterranean ...... 27,55% 
> Caucasian ............ 23,14% 
> Baloch ................. 7,16% 
> SW-Asian ............. 6,17% 
> SE-Asian .............. 1,68% 
> Siberian ............... 0,59% 
> ...


What are the margins of error for these estimates? 5%?!
lol... _
SE-Asian .............. 1,68% 
Siberian ............... 0,59% 
W-African ............. 0,5% 
San ..................... 0,4% 
American ............. 0,21% 
S-Indian .............. 0,1% 
Papuan ................ 0,06%
Total ................. 3.54%
_

----------


## Joey37

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
NE-Euro
45.04

2
Mediterranean
31.78

3
Caucasian
12.05

4
Baloch
9.24




Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 french_hgdp @ 6.357331
2 utahn-white_1000genomes @ 8.947128
3 hungarian_behar @ 9.462353
4 n-european_xing @ 9.702411
5 utahn-white_hapmap @ 10.403712
6 british_1000genomes @ 10.768258
7 slovenian_xing @ 11.632404
8 orcadian_hgdp @ 13.781578
9 serbian_harappa @ 15.811398
10 spaniard_behar @ 18.887596
11 romanian-a_behar @ 19.348148
12 ukranian_yunusbayev @ 20.000473
13 spaniard_1000genomes @ 20.195496
14 italian_hgdp @ 20.799503
15 bulgarian_yunusbayev @ 21.885542
16 belorussian_behar @ 25.398611
17 mordovian_yunusbayev @ 26.089188
18 russian_behar @ 27.139664
19 tuscan_hapmap @ 27.578447
20 tuscan_hgdp @ 27.957283

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% french_hgdp +50% hungarian_behar @ 3.072458


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% french_hgdp +25% serbian_harappa +25% utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.171589


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 british_1000genomes + french_hgdp + french_hgdp + serbian_harappa @ 2.170443
2 french_hgdp + french_hgdp + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.171589
3 british_1000genomes + british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp @ 2.206906
4 french_hgdp + french_hgdp + serbian_harappa + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.219246
5 french_hgdp + french_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + serbian_harappa @ 2.224763
6 british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.237161
7 british_1000genomes + french_hgdp + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.349733
8 french_hgdp + romanian-a_behar + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.349883
9 bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.391636
10 bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.393918
11 british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp + utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.411680
12 french_hgdp + french_hgdp + n-european_xing + serbian_harappa @ 2.423537
13 italian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp + serbian_harappa @ 2.427488
14 british_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + italian_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.445189
15 british_1000genomes + british_1000genomes + french_hgdp + romanian-a_behar @ 2.491683
16 hungarian_behar + italian_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_1000genomes @ 2.495655
17 british_1000genomes + bulgarian_yunusbayev + french_hgdp + orcadian_hgdp @ 2.498017
18 british_1000genomes + british_1000genomes + hungarian_behar + italian_hgdp @ 2.506257
19 tuscan_hapmap + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_hapmap + utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.517503
20 tuscan_hgdp + utahn-white_1000genomes + utahn-white_hapmap + utahn-white_hapmap @ 2.535552
I don't know if I've commented this before, so here it is.

----------


## Hawk

Albanian.

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
30.73

2
NE-Euro
29.61

3
Mediterranean
26.42

4
SW-Asian
6.8

5
Baloch
5.73

6
Beringian
0.56

7
Papuan
0.16




*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
bulgarian (yunusbayev)
6.93

2
tuscan (1000genomes)
7.55

3
tuscan (hgdp)
7.81

4
tuscan (hapmap)
8.28

5
romanian-a (behar)
8.29

6
ashkenazi (harappa)
11.89

7
italian (hgdp)
12.73

8
ashkenazy-jew (behar)
15.33

9
turk-aydin (hodoglugil)
21.46

10
sephardic-jew (behar)
22.06

11
hungarian (behar)
23.07

12
morocco-jew (behar)
23.08

13
spaniard (behar)
24.39

14
slovenian (xing)
24.49

15
french (hgdp)
24.5

16
spaniard (1000genomes)
25.43

17
turk-istanbul (hodoglugil)
27.87

18
romanian-b (behar)
27.97

19
nogai (yunusbayev)
29.13

20
turk-kayseri (hodoglugil)
29.17

----------

