# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Are these Argentine admixture percentages accurate?

## ratchet_fan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argent...netics_studies

This is not at all what I expected.

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## Ygorcs

Argentines are more mixed than they're generally thought to be (and also most of them themselves think they are). But the truth is that it varies A LOT between regions. People in Buenos Aires (I can affirm that because I've visited the city twice and walked _a lot_ around in several distinct neighborhoods) has an unquestionable white majority, but lots of mestizo-looking people (but mostly mestizos with a more Europe-shifted phenotype than you think if your idea of a Hispanic mestizo is Mexicans or Peruvians ones). In Buenos Aires the capital and the province of Buenos Aires I won't be surprised if at least ~75-85% of the local gene pool is of European background. In that sense of strong regional structure, Argentina almost parallels what happens in Brazil, though Brazil has an even more varied genetic makeup,a more mixed populace within each region (most of them at least) and a much higher relevant contribution of African ancestry. 

I find it intriguing, though, that while in my experience foreign people severely overestimate the European ancestry in average Argentines, those same people usually severely underestimate the European ancestry in Brazil, to the point that a lot of white and light-skinned mixed-race (who appear white-passing in many nations) people from Brazil tell stories about people who were totally surprised when they told them they were Brazilians and had pretty ordinary looks for Brazilian people. In fact, the difference between Brazil and Argentina as a whole is mainly in the amount of African ancestry. Brazilians are ~60-65% European on average, Argentines, probably ~65-75% on average. What really sets them apart is that African admixture is ~15-25% in Brazil, and at most ~2-4% in Argentina.

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## Duarte

Argentines with more European characteristics are porteños, that is, those who was born and live in Buenos Aires. In other regions of Argentina, Argentines have striking Amerindian characteristics. See Diego Maradona, world football idol.

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## Duarte

See the wonderful Mercedes Sosa

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## ratchet_fan

> Argentines are more mixed than they're generally thought to be (and also most of them themselves think they are). But the truth is that it varies A LOT between regions. People in Buenos Aires (I can affirm that because I've visited the city twice and walked _a lot_ around in several distinct neighborhoods) has an unquestionable white majority, but lots of mestizo-looking people (but mostly mestizos with a more Europe-shifted phenotype than you think if your idea of a Hispanic mestizo is Mexicans or Peruvians ones). In Buenos Aires the capital and the province of Buenos Aires I won't be surprised if at least ~75-85% of the local gene pool is of European background. In that sense of strong regional structure, Argentina almost parallels what happens in Brazil, though Brazil has an even more varied genetic makeup,a more mixed populace within each region (most of them at least) and a much higher relevant contribution of African ancestry. 
> 
> I find it intriguing, though, that while in my experience foreign people severely overestimate the European ancestry in average Argentines, those same people usually severely underestimate the European ancestry in Brazil, to the point that a lot of white and light-skinned mixed-race (who appear white-passing in many nations) people from Brazil tell stories about people who were totally surprised when they told them they were Brazilians and had pretty ordinary looks for Brazilian people. In fact, the difference between Brazil and Argentina as a whole is mainly in the amount of African ancestry. Brazilians are ~60-65% European on average, Argentines, probably ~65-75% on average. What really sets them apart is that African admixture is ~15-25% in Brazil, and at most ~2-4% in Argentina.


Its interesting because from what you read about Aregentines on anthro forums you would think they are essentially 50% Spaniard and 50% Italian. I agree with you on the stereotype of Brazilians.

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## ratchet_fan

> Argentines with more European characteristics are porteños, that is, those who was born and live in Buenos Aires. In other regions of Argentina, Argentines have striking Amerindian characteristics. See Diego Maradona, world football idol.


True. You always hear of the romantic tales of European descended gauchos and such and I guess it gives a misguided picture.

Also Messi doesn't help either.

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## Ygorcs

> Its interesting because from what you read about Aregentines on anthro forums you would think they are essentially 50% Spaniard and 50% Italian. I agree with you on the stereotype of Brazilians.


I think that has a lot to do with self-image, too, a social concept of racial identity and patterns of racial classification. Brazil's white population decreased from ~60% to ~44% in the last 60 years or so. That was most certainly not caused (mostly, only partly) by a massive demographic decline of white people in comparison with non-white people, but by new patterns of racial identification of others and of oneself that are more accepting of _visible_ non-white ancestry (Brazilians never cared about having mixed ancestry... as long as you looked as white as possible, so phenotype mattered, genotype not really).No wonder the proportion of black and especially mixed/multiracial people (those who self-declare as such in census and poll surveys) increased tremendously since the 1990s even in the absence of any dramatic difference in fertility rates between whites, mixed-race and blacks. People who claimed to be "mixed/brown-skinned" are starting to accept that they are in fact more black than anything, and people who are visibly multiracial but were reasonably white-passing are starting to have no problem admitting they are mixed-race/brown/swarthy (_pardo/moreno_ in Brazilian jargon) instead of trying to make themselves and others believe they are white just like every white person in the country. No wonder the group of people that has increased their population the most (far above their real natural population growth) is that of self-declared mixed-race/brown/swarthy people since the 1940s. Genetics is not changing that much. How people perceive looks is what is changing.

I think the same issue happens in Argentina and Chile, but they're far more outdated than us in that respect. I have seen poll surveys in which Chileans claimed they were more than 60% white. No way that is true: I was in Santiago, one of the "whitest" zones in the country (though not more than the underpopulated southern region), and if even 40% of the people were really European-looking, not European-ish mestizo or even very Amerindian-ish mestizo, that was already an upper estimate. Even more striking is what I've seen in surveys on Argentine people. One of them claimed 97% of the population is white. That's just ridiculous. Even in Buenos Aires, at least in my experience, definitely no more than ~80-85% of the population looks white. In the inland provinces those numbers will be much lower. I can only assume a lot of mestizo-looking people believe they are European-shifted enough to claim they are actually white.

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## Ygorcs

Btw there are some very good studies on the Argentine genetic structure. I recommend reading these:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0196325

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26636962/

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....917898v2.full (very recent pre-print from May 2020)

Basically a lot of genetic structure on a regional and individual basis, but basically mostly European on average with the non-European part being mainly, but not totally, Native American.

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## Angela

Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?



Then, of course, there's the Papa Francesco type, here as a young man and an old one, Piemontese and Genovese.



As a middle aged man he has a bit of a doppelganger: the actor Jonathan Pryce from North Wales.


Gauls and Italics were a bit related, after all, plus, North Wales has an awful lot of E-V13. 

Notable Argentines of Italian descent. There's a whole heap of them, and not all from Northern Italy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...Notable_people

Diego Molito; from the surname I'm guessing southerner.


I can't say they're notable, but I have family who emigrated there. Some married only other Italians; some married "locals", all in Buenos Aires province.

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## Duarte

> Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?
> 
> 
> 
> Then, of course, there's the Papa Francesco type, here as a young man and an old one, Piemontese and Genovese.
> 
> 
> 
> As a middle aged man he has a bit of a doppelganger: the actor Jonathan Pryce from North Wales.
> ...


These Argentines are very handsome and also very porteños, but I think the probability of they having not Amerindian ancestry is very low, like in Southeast ou South of Brazil.

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## Angela

> These Argentines are very handsome and also very porteños, but I think the probability of they having not Amerindian ancestry is very low, like in Southeast ou South of Brazil.


I'm sure most "Portenos" do, but not Papa Francisco: pure Italian. :) Both his parents were immigrants from Italy.

Well, the Polo player is certainly gorgeous, if not Papa Francisco. :)

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## Duarte

> I'm sure most "Portenos" do, but not Papa Francisco: pure Italian. :) Both his parents were immigrants from Italy.
> 
> Well, the Polo player is certainly gorgeous, if not Papa Francisco. :)


I do not know the biography of our dear Pope Francisco, but the massive immigration of Italians to Brazil and, I believe, also Argentina, ended in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Soon after, the immigration became sporadic.

The descendants of unmixed Italian immigrants in Brazil are concentrated in not very large geographical areas in the Serra Gaúcha, State of Rio Grande do Sul, and are mainly from Veneto, like most Italian immigrants who arrived in Brazil during the long history of Italian immigration to here.

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## Angela

> I do not know the biography of our dear Pope Francisco, but the massive immigration of Italians to Brazil and, I believe, also Argentina, ended in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Soon after, the immigration became sporadic .


Yes, that's probably why it's much more likely the old who are still "pure" in their ancestry. 

It works the same in the U.S. At a certain point, immigration from Italy was cut off. 

Once you start looking at "Italian-Americans" in their thirties or even forties, while a LOT of them are mixed we still do have people of 100% Italian ancestry.

Bradley Cooper: half Sicilian/half Irish


John Travolta: same mix


James Gandolfini of the Sopranos: half Southern Italian and half Northern Italian


In the Sopranos


Michael Imperioli, also in the Sopranos, 100% Southern Italian


Leonardo DiCaprio: despite the name, only one quarter Italian


Bruce Springsteen: half Irish/half Sicilian


Chris Cuomo: news anchor, half Neapolitan/half Sicilian.


On the other hand, the assimilation and admixture in Argentina and Brazil might have been faster and easier for cultural, religious, and language reasons, so maybe only the really old have no admixture there.

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## Duarte

> Yes, that's probably why it's much more likely the old who are still "pure" in their ancestry. 
> 
> It works the same in the U.S. At a certain point, immigration from Italy was cut off. 
> 
> Once you start looking at "Italian-Americans" in their thirties or even forties, while a LOT of them are mixed we still do have people of 100% Italian ancestry.
> 
> Bradley Cooper: half Sicilian/half Irish
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful people.  :Good Job: 
I don't know much about how immigrant integration took place in the USA. Immigrant neighborhoods were very common in São Paulo until the late 1960s. Today they are no longer immigrant neighborhoods. São Paulo is a cosmopolitan city of about 22,000,000 inhabitants. Buenos Aires is also very cosmopolitan and has about 13,000,000. The Italians of Serra Gaúcha in Brazil (mountain region) remained isolated. The others don't. I think that the history of the integration of immigrants in Buenos Aires was not very different from São Paulo.

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## Angela

> Beautiful people. 
> I don't know much about how immigrant integration took place in the USA. Immigrant neighborhoods were very common in São Paulo until the late 1960s. Today they are no longer immigrant neighborhoods. São Paulo is a cosmopolitan city of about 22,000,000 inhabitants. Buenos Aires is also very cosmopolitan and has about 13,000,000. The Italians of Serra Gaúcha in Brazil (mountain region) remained isolated. The others don't. I think that the history of the integration of immigrants in Buenos Aires was not very different from São Paulo.


Well, most of them are actors. They don't let you into the union unless you're reasonably attractive. :)

Even Meryl Streep had a difficult time. One producer said she was too plain to be an actress.



It was probably the nose.


I always thought that was really harsh; she may not ever have been a raving beauty, but I think she was at least attractive, and is so even today at 70 something when she puts in a little effort.



All of that said, there's a saying around here that Southern Italians and the Irish make beautiful babies. I tend to agree. :)

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## Duarte

> Well, most of them are actors. They don't let you into the union unless you're reasonably attractive. :)
> 
> Even Meryl Streep had a difficult time. One producer said she was too plain to be an actress.
> 
> 
> 
> It was probably the nose.
> 
> 
> ...


Lol. I believe in that saying. It's a nice mix. I think Meryl is beautiful. The new gray-haired look is being copied by women around the world, including younger women who do not yet have white hair, or if they have white hair, they have very few. This is great proof of how influential and admired Meryl is.

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## Palermo Trapani

Duarte: Dr. Fauci, like the Cuomo sons of Mario, is Sicilian-Campanian. For movie buffs, Francis Ford Coppola is Basilicata-Neopolitan. Martin Sorcese's ancestry 100% from Sicily as was Frank Capra. Frank Sinatra was a Sicilian-Ligurian mix, his father coming from the same town as Lucky Luciano!!. Tony Bennett (Anthony Benedetto) was from Calabria, or his family was. Dean Martin, I think his family 100% from Abruzzo where Mayor Rudy's family is from Tuscany on his Fathers side (maybe Angela knows the exact town and its history, its foods, festivals, etc). Not sure where his Mother's family was from.

Now not saying there the same as the actors, but does give a good picture of the Americans of Italian ancestry in the USA.

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## Duarte

> Duarte: Dr. Fauci, like the Cuomo sons of Mario, is Sicilian-Campanian. For movie buffs, Francis Ford Coppola is Basilicata-Neopolitan. Martin Sorcese's ancestry 100% from Sicily as was Frank Capra. Frank Sinatra was a Sicilian-Ligurian mix, his father coming from the same town as Lucky Luciano!!. Tony Bennett (Anthony Benedetto) was from Calabria, or his family was. Dean Martin, I think his family 100% from Abruzzo where Mayor Rudy's family is from Tuscany on his Fathers side (maybe Angela knows the exact town and its history, its foods, festivals, etc). Not sure where his Mother's family was from.
> 
> Now not saying there the same as the actors, but does give a good picture of the Americans of Italian ancestry in the USA.


Thank you @PT. 
All of these people you mentioned are great personalities known and admired not only in the United States, but around the world.  :Good Job:

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## Angela

> Lol. I believe in that saying. It's a nice mix. I think Meryl is beautiful. The new gray-haired look is being copied by women around the world, including younger women who do not yet have white hair, or if they have white hair, they have very few. This is great proof of how influential and admired Meryl is.


Well, I'm glad to hear you say so, since every one of my friends thinks that when we were both younger, if you darkened her hair she looked a lot like me (except I have a better nose. :)) In fact, after seeing "It's Complicated", they all told me, men and women both, that it's as if she channeled me; speech patterns, movement, mannerisms, personality, and behavior. Fwiw, I agree. Of course, at work I had to present a different persona.:)

I have to admit that a bit of Judge Judy has crept in. You lose patience as you get older and I've lived for a long time among people who tell it like it is.

Fwiw, I don't think she's beautiful; but certainly attractive enough to be an actress. What that producer said was wrong, as well as downright cruel.

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## Duarte

> Well, I'm glad to hear you say so, since every one of my friends thinks that when we were both younger, if you darkened her hair she looked a lot like me (except I have a better nose. :)) In fact, after seeing "It's Complicated", they all told me, men and women both, that it's as if she channeled me; speech patterns, movement, mannerisms, personality, and behavior. Fwiw, I agree. Of course, at work I had to present a different persona.:)
> 
> I have to admit that a bit of Judge Judy has crept in. You lose patience as you get older and I've lived for a long time among people who tell it like it is.
> 
> Fwiw, I don't think she's beautiful; but certainly attractive enough to be an actress. What that producer said was wrong, as well as downright cruel.


Yes Angela. That producer was cruel to her. 

IMO, Maryl calls attention to the elegance too. For me, beauty is the “work as a whole” and includes: Physical appearance, intelligence, good humor, culture, sympathy, empathy. Here in Brazil the maxim always applies: “You shouldn't judge the book by its cover”. We are a people who undress a lot in beaches, clubs and other places of leisure. The cult of the beautiful body here is a fever. That is why we always need to remember this saying. Here in Brazil what most afflicts a person is not ethnicity, but whether you look ugly or beautiful to others. 

I can also be very grouchy, and the older I get, the more grouchy I get, too. lol. :Good Job:  :Laughing:

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## Angela

> Yes Angela. That producer was cruel to her. 
> 
> IMO, Maryl calls attention to the elegance too. *For me, beauty is the “work as a whole” and includes: Physical appearance, intelligence, good humor, culture, sympathy, empathy.* Here in Brazil the maxim always applies: “You shouldn't judge the book by its cover”. We are a people who undress a lot in beaches, clubs and other places of leisure. The cult of the beautiful body here is a fever. That is why we always need to remember this saying. Here in Brazil what most afflicts a person is not ethnicity, but whether you look ugly or beautiful to others. 
> 
> I can also be very grouchy, and the older I get, the more grouchy I get, too. lol.


Very wisely put. :)

If you haven't seen the film, here's a featurette; it's very funny, and heart warming. I get tired of all the doom sometimes.

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## Duarte

> Very wisely put. :)
> 
> If you haven't seen the film, here's a featurette; it's very funny, and heart warming. I get tired of all the doom sometimes.


Thanks for the suggestion, Angela. In fact, seems a very complicated plot, lol. Cool.

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## Ygorcs

Wow, I happen to think young Meryl Streep was no classic, seamless beauty, but very attractive a in a unique way, especially in the Choice of Sophia. At least you could never accuse her of having too ordinary looks. She had a strikingly personal figure.

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## Ygorcs

> Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?


Yes, and also people looking pretty much like this. In Buenos Aires I'd say not more than 20% of the people I saw were like this or more Amerindian-looking (a few even black, but I was told they are often Uruguayans, where dilution of black ancestry was much lower than in Argentina for many historic and social reasons).


_
Argentine singers Gary and Sandro_

But I don't know how to judge the greatest of all Argentine actors of our days, Ricardo Darín (amazing actor in some of the best movies I've seen from the last 15 years). He looks virtually Southern European-like, but there is something different that I don't know what it is.

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## Ygorcs

I'd say a sizeable minority (at last 10%) of Buenos Aires people are also more like Mercedes Sousa, a more Amerindian-looking people but clearly admixed with Europeans, but in the northwestern and central-western provinces I'm sure the proportion of people with type of look are a lot higher. By the way, this is SOOOOO beautiful (also note the way she pronounces "Parra", with /r/ turning into a /zh/-like sound, which is typical of some northern Argentine, Bolivian and Peruvian dialects, again suggesting the closer links of Northern Argentina to the more Amerindian-shifted Andean area) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjAOk6BX8g

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## Duarte

> Yes, and also people looking pretty much like this. In Buenos Aires I'd say not more than 20% of the people I saw were like this or more Amerindian-looking (a few even black, but I was told they are often Uruguayans, where dilution of black ancestry was much lower than in Argentina for many historic and social reasons).
> 
> 
> _
> Argentine singers Gary and Sandro_
> 
> But I don't know how to judge the greatest of all Argentine actors of our days, Ricardo Darín (amazing actor in some of the best movies I've seen from the last 15 years). He looks virtually Southern European-like, but there is something different that I don't know what it is.


The Latin American spice, I think.  :Thinking: 
Maybe that’s the difference in he and what turns he so unique, lol. 
Cheers dear fellow. 
Meryl is also a unique kind of beauty. :Good Job:  :Smile:

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## Duarte

> I'd say a sizeable minority (at last 10%) of Buenos Aires people are also more like Mercedes Sousa, a more Amerindian-looking people but clearly admixed with Europeans, but in the northwestern and central-western provinces I'm sure the proportion of people with type of look are a lot higher. By the way, this is SOOOOO beautiful (also note the way she pronounces "Parra", with /r/ turning into a /zh/-like sound, which is typical of some northern Argentine, Bolivian and Peruvian dialects, again suggesting the closer links of Northern Argentina to the more Amerindian-shifted Andean area) 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjAOk6BX8g

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## Angela

It was the elder Dino de Laurentiis who called her "brutta" or ugly. She describes it here:




Her co-guests didn't seem to think it was the case even when she was closer to 60. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH87lb_gc5U

At the end she says: I was just looking for an excuse. I'm sure most women would feel the same way. :)


As for Ricardo Darin, is it something across the eye area? Everything else can be seen in lots of places in Europe. Yet I feel silly saying it because the shape of them is not really different. Can it be a certain "look" in them? 

Maybe I'm being too fanciful.

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## Ygorcs

> The Latin American spice, I think. 
> Maybe that’s the difference in he and what turns he so unique, lol. 
> Cheers dear fellow. 
> Meryl is also a unique kind of beauty.


As a totally disinterested party, I have to agree.  :Grin:  :Laughing:

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## Duarte

> As a totally disinterested party, I have to agree.


I know  :Laughing:

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## Duarte

> It was the elder Dino de Laurentiis who called her "brutta" or ugly. She describes it here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her co-guests didn't seem to think it was the case even when she was closer to 60. :)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH87lb_gc5U
> 
> ...


What sympathy. Meryl Streep is really unique.

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## Ygorcs

> As for Ricardo Darin, is it something across the eye area? Everything else can be seen in lots of places in Europe. Yet I feel silly saying it because the shape of them is not really different. Can it be a certain "look" in them? 
> 
> Maybe I'm being too fanciful.


Thanks, now I can feel a bit better because I'm not imagining crazy things.  :Laughing:  I always thought there is a certain specific "Argentine" look. Not the majority, but a lot of people have it there. It's not Italian, not Iberian, not Amerindian. It's a certain defined type, but I can't pinpoint what exactly it is. As you say, m main clue is in the eye area: a bit like an averaged European+Amerindian eye shape... Maybe that's what happens when you intensively mix Iberians, Italians and Amerindians?

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## Duarte

Rodolfo "Fito" Páez is an Argentine composer, singer and pianist. 





Fito was born in the province of Santa Fé on March 13, 1963. Below is a performance in Brazil with the Brazilian Pop Rock Band “Titãs”.

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## Regio X

> The descendants of unmixed Italian immigrants in Brazil are concentrated in not very large geographical areas in the Serra Gaúcha, State of Rio Grande do Sul, and are mainly from Veneto, like most Italian immigrants who arrived in Brazil during the long history of Italian immigration to here.


A relatively big area in Serra Gaúcha is indeed an important hotspot of unmixed Italians (of course there're lots of mixed Italians as well), however, I'd say it's not the only area where you can find them somewhat easily. Roughly speaking, they may also be found in a Central area of the state, "Quarta Colônia" (around Santa Maria-RS), other parts of the North of the state, West - and parts of North - of Santa Catarina, also in the area around Criciúma/Urussanga etc., parts of South of Paraná... Not saying they're majority in these areas, naturally. In many places there're much higher chances of finding them already mixed mainly with Iberians+NA+SSA (this one is the typical "gaúcho") and/or Germans. Many of these "Italians" in West of Santa Catarina and South of Paraná descend from 'Italians" firstly settled in Rio Grande do Sul, who "expanded" from Serra Gaúcha soon or later. You can also find some unmixed in Espírito Santo (as my mother-in-law) and also in São Paulo (even if at lower frequencies). I believe they will be absolutely rare everywhere in few generations. Normal process. My son and all my siblings' children are already mixed Italians, for example.
Now, the number of people with some Italian ancestry is very, very high in some parts of Brazil, especially in São Paulo. Probably many millions.

Bty, like Argentina pretty much. Have been there several times in the last years.

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## Ygorcs

About the main question of the thread, this study indicates a dramatic regional structure in Argentina between Buenos Aires (capital & province), where the majority of the national population lives, and the other generally less populated regions, especially in the North (until the late colonial era the most populous one) and the South (only definitely conquered by Argentines in the late 19th century). Certainly a much bigger regional difference than in Brazil, where, according to most genetic studies, all regions have a minimum of ~50-55% and a maximum of ~75-80% European ancestry.

_"Most of the studies that evaluated the distribution of genetic ancestry in Argentina included samples from the Buenos Aires province, where a great proportion of the population resides [1], [4], [5], [6]. The ancestry proportion estimates for this region by these studies ranged between 78–90% European, 15–19% Indigenous American and 2–4% African. A report on genome admixture proportions among Latin American Mestizos that included a small set of individuals from three provinces in the Argentine Northwest, Tucuman, Catamarca and Salta, reported ancestry estimates of 30%, 42% and 72% Indigenous American ancestry, respectively [7]"

__The mean European ancestry for BA was 76% (95%CI: 73–79%), for NWA was 33% (95%CI: 21–41), for NEA 54% (95%CI: 49–58%) and for the South 54% (95"%CI: 49–59%). These observed differences in estimated proportions of European and Indigenous American ancestry across regions were statistically significant (p = 0.0001_).

There is also class/socioeconomic genetic structure just like in Brazil (but in Brazil much of the non-European ancestry in poorer people is African, but also with relevant Native American contributions):

_Individuals from Buenos Aires city were ascertained from two large hospitals, one private (n = 79) and one public (n = 89). Individuals from the private hospital had more European ancestry (80%; 95%CI: 76–85%) compared to individuals ascertained from the public hospital (76%; 95%CI: 72–80%), p = 0.028. To investigate the potential cause for this heterogeneity within the city of Buenos Aires, we determined the association between place of residence and genetic ancestry. Individuals recruited in these hospitals were residents of either the city of Buenos Aires proper, or the immediate surrounding urban areas (urban belts 1 and 2, Figure S1). Even though there was high variance of individual European and Indigenous American ancestry within every urban belt and within the city of Buenos Aires proper (Figure S2), we observed statistically significant differences in the average estimate of European or Indigenous American ancestry across these three regions, in particular, when we compared individuals from the city of Buenos Aires proper and the 1st urban belt to individuals from the 2nd urban belt (p = 0.01) (Table 1). Moreover, the differences in genetic ancestry estimates between the two hospitals in the city of Buenos Aires can be completely explained by the higher proportion of 2nd urban belt residents in the public hospital (19% in the public vs. 11% in the private). When 2nd urban belt residents were removed from the analysis, there were no significant differences in European ancestry between the two hospitals._

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## Duarte

> A relatively big area in Serra Gaúcha is indeed an important hotspot of unmixed Italians (of course there're lots of mixed Italians as well), however, I'd say it's not the only area where you can find them somewhat easily. Roughly speaking, they may also be found in a Central area of the state, "Quarta Colônia" (around Santa Maria-RS), other parts of the North of the state, West of of Santa Catarina (and parts of North), also in the area around Criciúma/Urussanga etc., parts of South of Paraná... Not saying they're majority in these areas, naturally. In many places there're much higher chances of finding them already mixed mainly with Iberians+NA+SSA (this one is the typical "gaúcho") and/or Germans, of course. Many of these "Italians" in West of Santa Catarina and South of Paraná descend from 'Italians" firstly settled in Rio Grande do Sul, who "expanded" from Serra Gaúcha soon or later. You can also find some unmixed in Espírito Santo (as my mother-in-law) and also in São Paulo (even if at lower frequencies). I believe they will be absolutely rare everywhere in few generations. Normal process. My son and all my siblings' children are already mixed Italians, for example.
> Now, the number of people with some Italian ancestry is very, very high in some parts of Brazil, especially in São Paulo. Likely many millions.
> 
> Bty, like Argentina pretty much. Have been there several times in the last years.


The miscegenation of Iberians and Italians in Brazil has always been very common. Italians have completely integrated into our culture. My son is a miscegenation of a Iberian-Brazilian guy (me, lol) with an Italian-Brazilian girl (my wife) of a family from the Veneto . She was born on the border between Minas and Espírito Santo (Serra do Caparaó region). She wanted to impress me by showing all of her family's land and farm headquarters in the region. But I was just impressed only with her, lol. Her aunt owned the only hotel in town and I stayed hosted there. 

PS: 30% of population of BH has Italian ancestry and the Cruzeiro Esporte Clube (I'm sorry, but I “hate” the Cruzeiro, former Palestra Itália of Belo Horizonte) was founded by people of the Italian colony. Today this second-rate football team (lol) is plotting a game with the Italian selection of football to celebrate its 100 years of foundation. Poor. My Galo, my heart club is a hundred years old it's been a long time . lol.

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## Regio X

> The miscegenation of Iberians and Italians in Brazil has always been very common. Italians have completely integrated into our culture. My son is a miscegenation of a Iberian-Brazilian guy (me, lol) with an Italian-Brazilian girl (my wife) of a family from the Veneto . She was born on the border between Minas and Espírito Santo (Serra do Caparaó region). She wanted to impress me by showing all of her family's land and farm headquarters in the region. But I was just impressed only with her, lol. Her aunt owned the only hotel in town and I stayed hosted there. 
> 
> PS: 30% of population of BH has Italian ancestry and the Cruzeiro Esporte Clube (I'm sorry, but I “hate” the Cruzeiro, former Palestra Itália of Belo Horizonte) was founded by people of the Italian colony. Today this second-rate football team (lol) is plotting a game with the Italian selection of football to celebrate its 100 years of foundation. Poor. My Galo, my heart club is a hundred years old it's been a long time . lol.


Cool! There're this little city in that area (closer to Minas) called Vila Nova do Imigrante. It's possibly one of the few places in Espírito Santo where some Talian speakers can still be found. My mother-in-law's family is from around Cachoeiro though, a more "Brazilian" city compared to Vila Nova. My father-in-law is a typical Brazilian from Central-West.

Yeah, I know about Cruzeiro's old name. Nice! Same as Palmeiras. I'm Grêmio (not related to Italian immigration in origin), but also Juventude (this one yes is related). 
Like Galo, btw. I was very happy for your Libertadores in 2013. :)

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## Duarte

[QUOTE=Regio X;608989]Cool! There're this little city in that area (closer to Minas) called Vila Nova do Imigrante. It's possibly one of the few places in Espírito Santo where some Talian speakers can still be found. My mother-in-law's family is from around Cachoeiro though, a more "Brazilian" city compared to Vila Nova. My father-in-law is a typical Brazilian from Central-West.

Yeah, I know about Cruzeiro's old name. Nice! Same as Palmeiras. I'm Grêmio (not related to Italian immigration in origin), but also Juventude (this one yes is related). 
Like Galo, btw. I was very happy for your Libertadores in 2013. :)[/QUOTE]

That's it Regio.  :Good Job:  
The Palestra Itália of São Paulo, today Palmeiras, was founded by people from the Italian colony of São Paulo. Incredibly, the fans of Galo and Palmeiras are brothers. The Palmeiras fans are the bro of the Galo fans and not the Cruzeiro fans (see the integration). My wife and her whole family support Cruzeiro and my son, following me and my whole family support Galo. My son is part of the “Torcida Organizada Galo Metal”.

PS: Thanks Regio. I have a great admiration for Grêmio and Renato Gaúcho.

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## Angela

Astor Piazzola, child of Italian immigrants to Argentina, who developed "Nuevo Tango" and was called the foremost composer of tango music in the world.

It's my favorite dance, as it was my father's favorite dance, who taught it to me by the traditional method of having me put my feet on top of his. 



His Libertango, one of my favorites, as interpreted by YoYo Ma and Nestor Marconi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUAPf_ccobc

A great dance performance of it:



Another favorite is Oblivion. This is among my top five tango performances 'ever'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Hy6WE0SHU

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## Ygorcs

Tango is really amazing. By far IMO the most beautiful and sensual (sexy, not vulgar) dance of all. Have you ever seen a traditional tango show? My eyes couldn't even capture all the tiny little and extremely fast leg movements, it's really impressive, and I'm not even a diehard dance lover, but tango and also traditional gaucho dances with "boleadoras" (also practicted in the Brazilian pampas; in the show I attended it was a father and his little but talented child doing it together) really impressed me in Argentina.

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## Ygorcs

Ah, I also LOVE Piazzolla's music. And I found his music is really the "musical face" of Argentina and certainly Buenos Aires. Every time I listen to his music, especially the amazing "Concierto para bandoneón", I immediately remind my long hours walking kilometers and kilometers in Buenos Aires (that's how I like my trips: walking a lot and wandering a lot around and a bit further from the touristy places to really see the "soul" of the place). One of my most pleasurable moments there was when I put my headphones and started walking on the streets of the Buenos Aires downtown and Recoleta while listening to Piazzolla's "Adiós nonino" and "Concierto para bandoneon" on my smartphone. Good memories!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEkGs71OIE

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## Angela

Tango shows are constantly coming to NYC, and I often go. I'm a dance nut. When I was flush with money because I had no children yet I had season's tickets to The New York City Ballet. Now I have to be more selective, especially because there are so many wonderful dance companies of all kinds in New York. It's one of the reasons I can never move too far away from here: dance, music, museums, galleries, lectures. 

Forever Tango and Tango House are just two of them. It's more mesmerizing in person than in video. I can't take my eyes off them.

I am no fan of the British and American show versions I see on TV. 

One of my favorite tangos is by two young Argentines in Robert Duval's movie Assassination Tango.



Have you ever seen Carlos Saura's movie "Tango"? It's fabulous. He shows the whole evolution of tango.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCL4aLaCTsM

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## kingjohn

> Argentines are more mixed than they're generally thought to be (and also most of them themselves think they are). But the truth is that it varies A LOT between regions. People in Buenos Aires (I can affirm that because I've visited the city twice and walked _a lot_ around in several distinct neighborhoods) has an unquestionable white majority, but lots of mestizo-looking people (but mostly mestizos with a more Europe-shifted phenotype than you think if your idea of a Hispanic mestizo is Mexicans or Peruvians ones). In Buenos Aires the capital and the province of Buenos Aires I won't be surprised if at least ~75-85% of the local gene pool is of European background. In that sense of strong regional structure, Argentina almost parallels what happens in Brazil, though Brazil has an even more varied genetic makeup,a more mixed populace within each region (most of them at least) and a much higher relevant contribution of African ancestry. 
> 
> I find it intriguing, though, that while in my experience foreign people severely overestimate the European ancestry in average Argentines, those same people usually severely underestimate the European ancestry in Brazil, to the point that a lot of white and light-skinned mixed-race (who appear white-passing in many nations) people from Brazil tell stories about people who were totally surprised when they told them they were Brazilians and had pretty ordinary looks for Brazilian people. In fact, the difference between Brazil and Argentina as a whole is mainly in the amount of African ancestry. Brazilians are ~60-65% European on average, Argentines, probably ~65-75% on average. What really sets them apart is that *African admixture is ~15-25% in Brazil*, and at most ~2-4% in Argentina.



i am not sure about it  :Thinking: 
durate is a white brazilian from this forum and show only 4-5% sub -sharan 
how do you reach this high number ? ...... :Thinking: 
and not even speaking on german brazilians in the deep south brazil who are 2-3% amerindian 
if any....
and don't score sub -sharan or only 1-3% of it

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## Ygorcs

> i am not sure about it 
> durate is a white brazilian from this forum and show only 4-5% sub -sharan 
> how do you reach this high number ? ......
> and not even speaking on german brazilians in the deep south brazil who are 2-3% amerindian 
> if any....
> and don't score sub -sharan or only 1-3% of it


At least 3 different autosomal genetic studies show that.
Duarte is a very white Brazilian. He's not the average Brazilian. Average white Brazilians will have something like ~5-10% Subsaharan African ancestry and ~5-10% Amerindian ancestry on average. But white Brazilians are "just" ~43-45% of the population.

Averages are, well, averages. You will have people who are 99.99% European, and you will have people who are just 10% European. The average, though, is ~60-65%, and the vast majority of the population will be between ~40% and ~80% European ancestry.

German Brazilians are like Italian Brazilians: only still mostly unmixed in tiny inland towns. The majority, especially people younger than 50 years old, are already mixed with people from other backgrounds, fully European or not. Moreover, German Brazilians are not a majority in the Brazilian South. There is a lot of mostly Iberian and Amerindian pre-Great Migration (the period from ~1870 to ~1930 in which Brazil received 6 million immigrants, joining USA, Argentina and Canada as the main destinations of worldwide European emigration) substrate in the region, which already had about 8% of Brazil's population (i.e. ~800,000 people) when the massive-scale immigration to the South started by the early 1870s (not it has about 15% of the country's population). On average ~75% to ~87% of the Southern Brazilian genetic makeup is European, so there is a substantial non-European contribution, too. Few people know this, but Rio Grande do Sul (Brazil's southernmost country) also has one of the largest black populations of Brazil and is (this is what is really surprising) the Brazilian state where the highest proportion of people claim to practice Afro-Brazilian religions. 

My opinion is that Porteño Argentines, Chileans and Southern Brazilians usually and deliberately underestimate the non-European contributions to their culture and demographics. Actually, many of them go as far as denying or at least underrating the Iberian contribution, as if it weren't a decisive part of those regions' origins, perhaps even the most one.

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## Regio X

> i am not sure about it 
> durate is a white brazilian from this forum and show only 4-5% sub -sharan 
> how do you reach this high number ? ......
> and not even speaking on german brazilians in the deep south brazil who are 2-3% amerindian 
> if any....
> and don't score sub -sharan or only 1-3% of it


There're important variations in South Brazil. The region is somewhat heterogeneous in ancestry proportions, as Brazil as a whole. I believe Ygorcs referred to averages. 

ED: just saw that Ygorcs already answered.

@Ygorcs
Nice to see Milton Manica again, after so much time. I remember him. Apparently he's from Brazil (South).
http://www.artistasgauchos.com.br/portal/?id=10107
https://br.pinterest.com/pin/556968678888672651/

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## Ygorcs

> There're important variations in South Brazil. The region is somewhat heterogeneous in ancestry proportions, as Brazil as a whole. I believe Ygorcs referred to averages. 
> 
> ED: just saw that Ygorcs already answered.
> 
> @Ygorcs
> Nice to see Milton Manica again, after so much time. I remember him. Apparently he's from Brazil (South).
> http://www.artistasgauchos.com.br/portal/?id=10107
> https://br.pinterest.com/pin/556968678888672651/


Indeed, I think the South is probably more heterogeneous even than the Northeast, North and Center-West. Probably second only to the Southeast. The cultural and demographic difference e.g. between the gaúcho Pampas region and the northern mountainous areas of Rio Grande do Sul, and between the coastal plain of Santa Catarina and the high plateus in the interior. Some parts have much more non-white people, some parts are far more Iberian in the dominant European ancestry, some others more Italian and German, some even more Slavic. 

I didn't know him before. Very thrilling dancing performance!  :Wink:

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## kingjohn

Thanks for answere both of you  :Good Job: 
I didn't know brazil is that mixed... :Thinking: 
About white brazilians scoring 5-10% subsharan
And 5-10% amerindian sound logic 
Dont see it in there phenotypes :Thinking: 
When i think of white brazilian person
This guy come to my head :Cool V: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Ara%C3%BAjo

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## Ygorcs

Yes, Brazil is very mixed both across different phenotypic groups (I wouldn't really call them "races", the classification is entirely based on subjective perception of looks) and also within each of those phenotypic groups, in individuals' genetic makeup. I think it is the true melting pot, because it did truly melt at least partly the original genetic and phenotypic makeup of the peoples that composed the Brazilian society. I see the USA (at least until the 1960s) as a sort of patchwork, but not melting pot like Brazil. No phenotypic group of Brazil is not mixed (on average) to relevant degrees, some of them even very much so. I'd say you can break it down a bit like this:

Whites: ~80-85% European, ~5-10% African, ~5-10% Amerindian
Pardos/morenos (brown/mixed/swarthy, translations vary): ~50-55% European, ~20-30% African, ~15-30% Amerindian
Blacks: ~50-60% African, ~30-35% European, ~5-20% Amerindian
Other groups (indigenous and East Asians): ~80-90% Amerindian (or East Asian), ~10-20% others

White and black Brazilians are some of the most mixed in the world. You can see it in the looks of the majority of the Brazilian blacks: while they're about ~40-45% non-African, non-African admixture in African-Americans are ~20-25% non-African genetically.

----------


## Regio X

> Indeed, I think the South is probably more heterogeneous even than the Northeast, North and Center-West. Probably second only to the Southeast. The cultural and demographic difference e.g. between the gaúcho Pampas region and the northern mountainous areas of Rio Grande do Sul, and between the coastal plain of Santa Catarina and the high plateus in the interior. Some parts have much more non-white people, some parts are far more Iberian in the dominant European ancestry, some others more Italian and German, some even more Slavic. 
> 
> I didn't know him before. Very thrilling dancing performance!


Agreed. 
The Southern half of the state is way more "gaúcho", with very few exceptions, São Lourenço do Sul being one of them (this city has a good frequency of people with Pomeranian background, but they're not necessarily the majority anyway). 

That said, perhaps even the gaúchos proper may be different from each other. I have the impression that those from Pampas have more SSA contribution than those from the Campos de Cima da Serra and Missões, even if NA is the predominant non-Iberian ancestry in both. I may be mistaken though (regarding these regions being significantly different on this). 
As for SSA ancestry itself, I believe two important hotspots are Pelotas and the capital Porto Alegre, but obviously it shows up in many other areas. Santa Catarina must have less SSA contribution than Rio Grande do Sul. 
Perhaps the most important "cultural" item in Rio Grande do Sul (not exclusive, of course), important for ALL "ethnicities" in the state, is the "chimarrão", which is NA in origin. You may be German in ancestry, North Italian or whatever, chimarrão will likely be important for you. Generally speaking (obviously not all people use it). :)
When it comes to Euro ancestry in South (or actually any ancestry), perhaps one way to think it is using "cities". You have, say, the "Iberian" city (gaúchos, generally Portuguese+NA+SSA in whatever proportions), the Italian, the German (also some fewer Polish and Ukrainian), the Italian mixed more with gaúchos (or vice-versa), the German mixed more with gaúchos (or vice-versa), the Italian mixed more with Germans, all mixed, and on and on. It's really interesting, because sometimes you travel just few kilometers and voilà, you're in a city with a completely different predominant ancestry. 
In some rare cases, you have internal divisions, such in Nova Petrópolis. Here, you have some districts with more bohemians (such in Linha Imperial) - probably mixed already with other kind of "Germans" -, in other you may have more Pomeranian, or Rennans etc. I remember to have read that the city had to be "descentralized", i.e., some of these Germans had to be separated from each other, since the beginning, due to rivalry (possibly related to religion) or something.

----------


## italouruguayan

> Tango shows are constantly coming to NYC, and I often go. I'm a dance nut. When I was flush with money because I had no children yet I had season's tickets to The New York City Ballet. Now I have to be more selective, especially because there are so many wonderful dance companies of all kinds in New York. It's one of the reasons I can never move too far away from here: dance, music, museums, galleries, lectures. 
> 
> Forever Tango and Tango House are just two of them. It's more mesmerizing in person than in video. I can't take my eyes off them.
> 
> I am no fan of the British and American show versions I see on TV. 
> 
> One of my favorite tangos is by two young Argentines in Robert Duval's movie Assassination Tango.
> 
> 
> ...



For those who are not from Rio de la Plata, tango is basically a dance. But for Argentines and Uruguayans, tango is an expression of life due to the depth of its lyrics. I, just after my 50 years of age, began to appreciate it (before it was "the music of old people" for me), and only then did I understand the phrase that says: .. tango knows how to wait for you. And when you get to it ... it hits you in the chest ...

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## Duarte

> Yes, Brazil is very mixed both across different phenotypic groups (I wouldn't really call them "races", the classification is entirely based on subjective perception of looks) and also within each of those phenotypic groups, in individuals' genetic makeup. I think it is the true melting pot, because it did truly melt at least partly the original genetic and phenotypic makeup of the peoples that composed the Brazilian society. I see the USA (at least until the 1960s) as a sort of patchwork, but not melting pot like Brazil. No phenotypic group of Brazil is not mixed (on average) to relevant degrees, some of them even very much so. I'd say you can break it down a bit like this:
> 
> Whites: ~80-85% European, ~5-10% African, ~5-10% Amerindian
> Pardos/morenos (brown/mixed/swarthy, translations vary): ~50-55% European, ~20-30% African, ~15-30% Amerindian
> Blacks: ~50-60% African, ~30-35% European, ~5-20% Amerindian
> Other groups (indigenous and East Asians): ~80-90% Amerindian (or East Asian), ~10-20% others
> 
> White and black Brazilians are some of the most mixed in the world. You can see it in the looks of the majority of the Brazilian blacks: while they're about ~40-45% non-African, non-African admixture in African-Americans are ~20-25% non-African genetically.





> Agreed. 
> The Southern half of the state is way more "gaúcho", with very few exceptions, São Lourenço do Sul being one of them (this city has a good frequency of people with Pomeranian background, but they're not necessarily the majority anyway). 
> 
> That said, perhaps even the gaúchos proper may be different from each other. I have the impression that those from Pampas have more SSA contribution than those from the Campos de Cima da Serra and Missões, even if NA is the predominant non-Iberian ancestry in both. I may be mistaken though (regarding these regions being significantly different on this). 
> As for SSA ancestry itself, I believe two important hotspots are Pelotas and the capital Porto Alegre, but obviously it shows up in many other areas. Santa Catarina must have less SSA contribution than Rio Grande do Sul. 
> Perhaps the most important "cultural" item in Rio Grande do Sul (not exclusive, of course), important for ALL "ethnicities" in the state, is the "chimarrão", which is NA in origin. You may be German in ancestry, North Italian or whatever, chimarrão will likely be important for you. Generally speaking (obviously not all people use it). :)
> When it comes to Euro ancestry in South (or actually any ancestry), perhaps one way to think it is using "cities". You have, say, the "Iberian" city (gaúchos, generally Portuguese+NA+SSA in whatever proportions), the Italian, the German (also some fewer Polish and Ukrainian), the Italian mixed more with gaúchos (or vice-versa), the German mixed more with gaúchos (or vice-versa), the Italian mixed more with Germans, all mixed, and on and on. It's really interesting, because sometimes you travel just few kilometers and voilà, you're in a city with a completely different predominant ancestry. 
> In some rare cases, you have internal divisions, such in Nova Petrópolis. Here, you have some districts with more bohemians (such in Linha Imperial) - probably mixed already with other kind of "Germans" -, in other you may have more Pomeranian, or Rennans etc. I remember to have read that the city had to be "descentralized", i.e., some of these Germans had to be separated from each other, since the beginning, due to rivalry (possibly related to religion) or something.


The Human Development Index (IDH) - of Belo Horizonte is 0.810, which places the municipality in the Very High Human Development range (IDH between 0.800 and 1). The Human Development Index (IDH) - of Porto Alegre is 0.805, in 2010, which places this municipality in the Very High Human Development Index, also. Development range (IDH between 0.800 and 1). BH has a higher IDH than Porto Alegre. As mentioned, the BH’s Human Development Index is considered very high, according to data from the United Nations Development Program. According to data from the 2010 report, released in 2013, its value was 0.810, being the second largest in Minas Gerais, after Nova Lima (0.813). Therefore, the BH’s IDH is higher than that of Porto Alegre, capital of Rio Grande do Sul. The vast majority of whites in BH live in these places: “There are neighborhoods that have very high human development indexes in BH (equal to or greater than the indexes of some Scandinavian countries): Carmo / Sion (0.973): greater than Iceland - 0.968; Cruzeiro / Anchieta / Funcionários (0.970): greater than Iceland - 0.968; Grajau / Gutierrez (0.965): greater than Australia - 0.962; Belvedere / Mangabeiras / Comiteco (0.964): greater than Australia - 0.962; Serra / São Lucas (0.953): equal to Japan, Netherlands - 0.953”. The people who live in these neighborhoods have the phenotype equivalent to mine and I, in particular, do not believe they have more than 5% SSA. I do not believe that. They are the elite of the state.
Come and do “a search in loco” in Belo Horizonte‘. :Good Job:  :Smile:

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## Angela

In some places in Brazil perhaps it was the way it used to be in Cuba? I've known a few "white" Cubans quite well, children and grandchildren of people who fled Castro's Cuba. 

They never suspected that they had any non-European ancestry; they only found out when they did one of the retail ancestry tests. 

In all of the ones I knew, most had a few percent SSA, and a few also had a few percent Amerindian, and carried Amerindian mtDna. The latter was the biggerr shock as the history books had said that the "natives" were exterminated. If I remember correctly, the Amerindian showed up in the eastern part of the island. 

The totals were never more than around 5-7%, and it certainly wasn't visible.

In the case of Cuba, these people, who were indeed the "elite", all fled when their properties were confiscated. One of them returned for a visit, to the anger of his family and friends, and said from what he could see there were no "white" Cubans left. That entire part of Cuban history is gone.

Many of the people who remain do carry European ancestry, of course.

I suppose another example is the Afrikaners. The first settlers were men; they took mates from among the locals or the slaves, but some of the children of those unions then only admixed with full Europeans, and so the other ancestry was diluted. 

Coincidentally, there was a clip on my youtube feed yesterday about Sally Hemings, the slave "concubine" of President Thomas Jefferson. Historians and his white descendants have always denied it, but recent dna testing is pretty conclusive.

This poor mulatto or quadroon girl gave birth to six or seven children, starting when she was just sixteen years old. Even more appalling, she was the half sister of his deceased wife and much older. He never treated them in a "fatherly" way, but she, and they, received "special treatment", and when they were 21, two of the children, a boy and a girl, were "allowed" and actually aided by him in "running away". They "passed" into the white community and their descendants are unknown.

Two boys, Eston and Madison, remained with their mother, whom he never freed. She was freed after his death by Jefferson's daughter. He did free the two boys in his will. Madison chose to remain in the "colored" community and he has African American descendants today. Eston took the Jefferson name and claimed Thomas Jefferson as his father. He married another mostly white woman, and his descendants were part of the white community. The connection was a family legend but dna testing has proved the males carry Thomas Jefferson's specific yDna. 

There are no pictures of Sally Hemings or of Eston Hemings Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson's son, but this is his son Beverly.


This is another of Eston's sons, John Wayles Jefferson, who became a rich and successful cotton broker.


Clearly, 5% SSA doesn't "show". 

The whole thing disgusts me. I think he freed them but not her because be believed (the statement is found among his account books) that if a slave is an octoroon, or only one-eighth African, they perhaps might be considered "white" enough to be freed. I think he said something like one sixteenth or one thirty-secondth is "better". Don't quote me but it was something horrible like that.

I know we shouldn't judge the people of the past by the standards of today, but by that time some people were already indeed appalled by such callous and immoral behavior, among them President John Adams and his wife Abigail, who fell out with Jefferson when they found out and never really spoke again.

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## kingjohn

Angela a good example
of
A white cuban 
Is andy garcia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Garc%C3%ADa

To me he looks full iberian
Or full south italian...😉
Auosomally he might carry some % 
Sub- sharan or some % amerindian
But it is not visible in his phenotype
Not for nothing they took him for godfather😉

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## Angela

> Angela a good example
> of
> A white cuban 
> Is andy garcia
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Garc%C3%ADa
> To me he looks full iberian
> Or full south italian...������
> Auosomally he might carry some % 
> Sub- sharan or some % amerindian
> ...


I agree that he looks completely Iberian, or at least Southern European. If you really look closely, at least when he got older, there's something not quite Italian about him, but when he was young he was indeed a good "fit" phenotypically imo.



Desi Arnaz from I LOVE LUCY is another one.


Gloria Estevan, on the other hand, who I'm sure never thought she had "minority ancestry" either, to me does show some hints of it. 



When she was "hot". God, I love 80s music, even when it's trashy. :)

Gloria Estevan and the Miami Sound Machine...



By the way, another one who was a good fit for a certain type of Italian in The Godfather was the Ashkenazi Jewish James Caan, who brilliantly played Sonny. He even got the walk, the mannerisms, everything right.



Maybe overdone a bit, but good; maybe more Neapolitan than Sicilian, who in my experience can often be very, very, controlled.

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## Ygorcs

> In some places in Brazil perhaps it was the way it used to be in Cuba? I've known a few "white" Cubans quite well, children and grandchildren of people who fled Castro's Cuba. 
> 
> They never suspected that they had any non-European ancestry; they only found out when they did one of the retail ancestry tests. 
> 
> In all of the ones I knew, most had a few percent SSA, and a few also had a few percent Amerindian, and carried Amerindian mtDna. The latter was the biggerr shock as the history books had said that the "natives" were exterminated. If I remember correctly, the Amerindian showed up in the eastern part of the island. 
> 
> The totals were never more than around 5-7%, and it certainly wasn't visible.
> 
> In the case of Cuba, these people, who were indeed the "elite", all fled when their properties were confiscated. One of them returned for a visit, to the anger of his family and friends, and said from what he could see there were no "white" Cubans left. That entire part of Cuban history is gone.
> ...


Interesting (and sad, too) examples, Angela.

Yes, I think some parts of Brazill, mainly in the South and the southern portion of the Southeast (mainly São Paulo), were pretty similar to Cuba. In other parts of Brazil the so-called "miscigenation ideology" has become very deep-rooted, so I think most white people will acknowledge they have Amerindian an African ancestry, too, and sometimes even overestimate it (I have read about Brazilians who were kind of "underwhelmed" by the little exotic results of their DNA tests when it turned out that they were 95%> European and nothing else). But in the South and parts of São Paulo a lot of white people were under the impression they were almost "purely" European until DNA tests arrived, though they are still not nearly as popular as they've become in the USA (few companies are available in Brazil AFAIK). The _branqueamentoear_("whitening") policy of late 19th century and early 20th century Brazilian national and state governments (i.e. a eugenics-based policy to "improve tha racial stock" of Brazil by diluting Amerindian and African ancestry as much as possible through large-scale immigration and a strong encouragement to multi-generational white+non-white mixing) seems to have been not only much more successful, but also much more enduring in the people's mindset in the Southeast and especially in the South. 

I have seen some Southern Brazilians espouse a lot of quibbles against the autosomal DNA tests that indicate the region is "only" ~75% to ~87% (results vary) European in ancestry. Never mind that even in the "whitest" of all states, Santa Catarina, a full 1/5 of the population self-declares as non-white, and in the other southern states (including São Paulo, which is a sort of transition zone between Southeast and South) that proportion is even lower: about 20-25% in Rio Grande do Sul, 30% in Paraná and 40% in São Paulo. So, I think those results of already published autosomal studies must be pretty much accurate, even accounting for some small margin of error. In my experience I think ~5-15% non-European ancestry usually don't show up clearly in one's looks. A lot of visibly very European-like people may have that amount of African and Amerindian ancestry and never even know it.

----------


## Ygorcs

> The whole thing disgusts me. I think he freed them but not her because be believed (the statement is found among his account books) that if a slave is an octoroon, or only one-eighth African, they perhaps might be considered "white" enough to be freed. I think he said something like one sixteenth or one thirty-secondth is "better". Don't quote me but it was something horrible like that.
> 
> I know we shouldn't judge the people of the past by the standards of today, but by that time some people were already indeed appalled by such callous and immoral behavior, among them President John Adams and his wife Abigail, who fell out with Jefferson when they found out and never really spoke again.


Wow I didn't know that part of the story. I had sometimes wondered why it was so horrible according to many Americans, considering that concubine relationships between slaves or former slaves and wealthier white man was once pretty common stuff in many parts of the Americas, but the details are much more complicated... I was under the impression he had freed Sally after some years, too, but he didn't, and the reason why he didn't is incredibly petty and prejudiced even for the standards of the early 19th century (by that time, there were already a lot of abolitionists, and even a racist and still even more slavery-based country like Brazil already had hundreds of thousands of _black_ - indeed black or partly black-looking, not just having African ancestry - people freed by their former owners because of many non-racial reasons, including purely emotional/affectionate ones).

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## Angela

> Wow I didn't know that part of the story. I had sometimes wondered why it was so horrible according to many Americans, considering that concubine relationships between slaves or former slaves and wealthier white man was once pretty common stuff in many parts of the Americas, but the details are much more complicated... I was under the impression he had freed Sally after some years, too, but he didn't, and the reason why he didn't is incredibly petty and prejudiced even for the standards of the early 19th century (by that time, there were already a lot of abolitionists, and even a racist and still even more slavery-based country like Brazil already had hundreds of thousands of _black_ - indeed black or partly black-looking, not just having African ancestry - people freed by their former owners because of many non-racial reasons, including purely emotional/affectionate ones).


The "Anglo-Saxon" attitude toward this cross racial sexual contact was very different from that in the Spanish, Portuguese and French colonies. 

In the northern and midwestern states the vast majority of people didn't have slaves, and given the Calvinism of religious beliefs about sexuality, they found the idea that southern slave owners had sexual congress with black women appalling on all sorts of levels.

The rumors about Jefferson almost brought him down and put the government in turmoil.

In the slave holding states of the south people obviously had to know it was going on. Why were these obviously mixed people in the population, after all. 

I've read a lot of accounts from the period both from white people and former or escaped slaves, and there was a sort of conspiracy of silence and almost pathological denial.

In response to Abolitionist diatribes about the practice you'll be amused to hear that one common response was to blame it on the sailors on the slave ships, often Spanish and Portuguese. When the babies were pointed out it was usually blamed on the often Irish overseers, anything rather than admit that English men were the fathers.

Both things undoubtedly happened, but it was also the slave owners themselves. Jefferson's father in law fathered six children on a mulatto woman, Elizabeth Hemings, never freed any of them, and on his death this whole family was bequeathed to his daughter Martha Wayles and ended up on Jefferson's Monticello, waiting on and working for their half sister and her family. 

People went to great lengths to hide it, and it was never spoken of in "white" society. Jefferson wasn't unusual in that regard. The pretense was that Sally was just the housekeeper, with the added duty of looking after Jefferson's room and clothing. Convenient, that. Only after rather recent restorations of Monticello was it discovered that there was a hidden staircase from Sally's downstairs room into the President's bedchamber. Even more recently a "secret bedroom" with no windows was discovered where it is suspected Sally Hemings gave birth to her children.

The closest Jefferson's legitimate children ever got to acknowledging a genetic relationship was to blame it on a young nephew who was an alcoholic and ne'er-do-well who died young. They had to acknowledge some sort of relationship because there were so many accounts by northern visitors to Monticello of all these white red-haired slaves they'd seen. 

French-Spanish New Orleans was different. They developed a whole system called "placage" where contracts were signed between white men and women of color, providing for them economically, and any children of the union, as well as freeing them in some situations. Of course, I'm sure there was also "extra-legal" contact as well, with violence and coercion involved, but no matter how some revisionist historians want to make the white slave owners as "bad" as possible there are too many accounts from the women themselves to the practice to deny it. 

The French novelist Alexandre Dumas, one of my favorites, was the child of such a union. 



"*Plaçage* was a recognized extralegal system in French and Spanish slave colonies of North America (including the Caribbean) by which ethnic European men entered into civil unions with non-Europeans of African, Native American and mixed-race descent. The term comes from the French _placer_ meaning "to place with". The women were not legally recognized as wives but were known as _placées_; their relationships were recognized among the free people of color as _mariages de la main gauche_ or left-handed marriages. They became institutionalized with contracts or negotiations that settled property on the woman and her children and, in some cases, gave them freedom if they were enslaved. The system flourished throughout the French and Spanish colonial periods, reaching its zenith during the latter, between 1769 and 1803.It was widely practiced in New Orleans, where planter society had created enough wealth to support the system.[_clarification needed_] It also took place in the Latin-influenced cities of Natchez and Biloxi, Mississippi; Mobile, Alabama; St. Augustine and Pensacola, Florida;[1] as well as Saint-Domingue (now the Republic of Haiti). Plaçage became associated with New Orleans as part of its cosmopolitan society."


The whole thing horrified the "Yankees" when they took over; they viewed it as institutionalized cross racial prostitution. 

Latins have a different attitude clearly. I saw it in histories of the second world war as well, with the attitude of the Italian colonial governments in places like Eritrea and Somalia.

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## Henrique



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## Murlock

Hi all,

Sorry if I am bringing up and old thread, but I am new here and find the discussion interesting as I am an Argentine (although I currently live in NYC). Regarding "Argentine whiteness", I agree that it is often exaggerated and that some of the reasons already brought up here play a role. Basically, that, as is common in LATAM, anyone looking white would be considered white and there was historically (and to some extent there still is) some prestige attached to being white. Also, most foreigners usually visit Buenos Aires and keep to upper and midddle class neighborhoods (Recoleta, Palermo, etc).

However, I also think that it should be taken into account that, much like what has and is happening in the US, the demographic composition of Argentina has changed considerably during the last 5o or 60 years. Mainly because of the following factors:

1) Provinces where people usually have higher amerindian admixture have historically had much higher birth rates than Buenos Aires, Santa Fe or other provinces with higher european populations.

2) From the 60s onwards, European immgration was largely replaced by immigration from neighboring countries (mainly Bolivia, Peru, Chile and Paraguay, which of course have much higher amerindian populations). For example, today there are about 550k Parguayans and 350k bolivians living in Argentina (the country has approx. 44 million inhabitants). People of paraguayan or bolivian descent are of course many more, as anyone born in Argentina automaticallly becomes Argentinian because of Ius Soli rules.

3) Many middle and upper-middle class Argentines have been steadily living the country in recent decades for economic reasons (also, most Argentines who travel and visit foreign countries are usually upper middle class, which may also contribute to the perception of Argentines being white). 

That said, If DNA tests would have been available in the 1940s I have no doubt that european admixture would have been considerably higher. So, the stereotype of Argentina being whiter than it is may be based on what Argentina used to look like. I tried to post a picture with percentages of foreign born population in Argentina as per the 1914 census but I was not allowed to do it.

I think the same can be said about the US. When is was little I had the stereotypical image of Americans being blond gringos. That is certainly not what I see when I walk the streets today. I can safely say that Buenos Aires is much whiter than NYC.

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## Murlock

> See the wonderful Mercedes Sosa


Maradona's parents where orginally from the Province of Corrientes and Mercedes Sosa came from Tucuman. Both provinces with significant amerindian admixture. None of them, of course, were considered white in Argentina (the great Mercedes Sosa was affectionately nicknamed "La Negra").

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## Murlock

> These Argentines are very handsome and also very porteños, but I think the probability of they having not Amerindian ancestry is very low, like in Southeast ou South of Brazil.


People of full Euopean descent are not rare in Argentina at all (although they are of course not the majority). I have plenty of friends whose grandparents were all born in Europe. In my case, 3 of my grandparents were not only of european descent but born in Europe.

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## kingjohn

> Maradona's parents where orginally from the Province of Corrientes and Mercedes Sosa came from Tucuman. Both provinces with significant amerindian admixture. None of them, of course, were considered white in Argentina (the great Mercedes Sosa was affectionately nicknamed "La Negra").



Mardonna was 1/ 4 croatian (maternal grandmother)
Doesn't show in his features but thats the magic of dna  :Smile: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Argentines

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## Murlock

It certainly did not. His daughter Dalma is much lighter than him. Maybe the croatian genes skipped a generation? haha.

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## Murlock

> As for Ricardo Darin, is it something across the eye area? Everything else can be seen in lots of places in Europe. Yet I feel silly saying it because the shape of them is not really different. Can it be a certain "look" in them? 
> 
> Maybe I'm being too fanciful.


Darin is Italian and Lebanese. No amerindian as far as I know.

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## Angela

> Darin is Italian and Lebanese. No amerindian as far as I know.


I just knew he wasn't totally European looking and certainly didn't look like someone from the Veneto, and not thinking of Middle Eastern ancestry, I put the difference down to Amerindian perhaps.

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## Duarte

On June 9, 2021, Alberto Fernández made a racist joke at a press conference alongside Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez at the Casa Rosada. “Mexicans came out of the Indians, Brazilians came out of the jungle, but we Argentines arrived in boats. And they were boats that came from Europe,” Fernández told Sánchez, in an attempt to describe the Argentines as “Europeans from Latin America”. Fernandez also erroneously attributed the quote to the Mexican poet, essayist and diplomat Octavio Paz (1914-1998), when it was about lyrics by Argentine rocker Litto Nebbia. Faced with the negative repercussion of his racist speech, Alberto Fernández went to social media on the same day to apologize.

Just as Bolsonaro submits the Brazilians to ridicule in front of the world, this self-image that the Argentine’s President and the Argentines created for themselves, that has the intent of to hide part of their history that, for them, are unwanted ,and, above all, demonstrates ignorance of the real genetic makeup of country, ends to submit them to ridicule in front the world too. I recommend Mr. Alberto Fernandez run an autosomal DNA test. As we know and I think that they know too, there are several companies on the market that does these tests and that charge honest prices, such as Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, FamilyTreeDNA. I think Fernandez will be surprised by how much of his ancestry did not come on the boats. The same advice applies to all Argentines who think they are different from their neighbors in Latin America, including the Porteños.

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## Davidtab

Hello, only seeing the physical appaerance of argentines, its easy for an Iberian to see many of them are not pure europeans. Overall, the poorer part of the argentine society its notorious most of them are from mixed origin.

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## Duarte

> Hello, only seeing the physical appaerance of argentines, it�s easy for an Iberian to see many of them are not pure europeans. Overall, the poorer part of the argentine society it�s notorious most of them are from mixed origin.


Hi  :Good Job:

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## kingjohn

To me both white brazilians 
Look european even if they have some
African or amerindian admixture 
In most cases it doesnt show in there facial features
And they look european :Thinking: 
Same goes for white argentinians
I fail to see forgein admixture for example 
Battistuta
Look european to me ...
But i am not an expert on anthropology.. :Thinking: 

P.s
So white brazilans came from europe
Not the jungle

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## Angela

I happen to have some Italian-Argentinian relatives. Some have only Italian ancestors but some married "native" Argentinians. Of those, and they have tested, they all have Amerindian mtDna.

It doesn't mean they look Amerindian, but there are some Argentinians where you can definitely see it. It all depends on the particular mix.

Nacho Figueras, a famous Argentinian Polo player who is also a model for Ralph Lauren's "Polo" line shows, to me, a bit of that admixture. No less handsome for it. :)

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## italouruguayan

What Alberto Fernandez said is surprising because he belongs to a party, and heads a government, which has brought "political correction" almost to the limit of ridiculousness. However, it is also true that these ideas are deeply rooted in the Argentine mentality.The idea has some foundations: Argentina, like Uruguay and southern Brazil, is one of the countries that received the most European immigration at the end of the 19th century. and early twentieth century. And also, at least until the 1940s, Argentina was constantly on the list of 10 richest countries in the world. From there came the idea of ​​rich white Argentina, surrounded by poor and non-white neighbors. And from there, a certain superiority complex. But times change, Argentina is getting poorer, and people of purely European origin, living mainly in Buenos Aires and other large cities, have been mixing with people from the interior, with an important Amerindian component, often referred to as " cabecitas negras (little black heads.)"

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