# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Bronze Age >  Corded Ware Culture Signals Population Change in Europe

## Angela

The study is not yet available, but this is the abstract from a Lazaridis and Haak et al paper to be read at the ASHG Conference in October: 

*Capture of 390,000 SNPs in dozens of ancient central Europeans reveals a population turnover in Europe thousands of years after the advent of farming.* I. Lazaridis, W. Haak, N. Patterson, N. Rohland, S. Mallick, B. Llamas, S. Nordenfelt, E. Harney, A. Cooper, K. W. Alt, D. Reich.

_To understand the population transformations that took place in Europe since the early Neolithic, we used a DNA capture technique to obtain reads covering ~390 thousand single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) from a number of different archaeological cultures of central Europe (Germany and Hungary). The samples spanned the time period from 7,500 BP to 3,500 BP (Early Neolithic to Early Bronze Age periods) and most of them were previously studied using mtDNA (Brandt, Haak et al., Science, 2013). The captured SNPs include about 360,000 SNPs from the Affymetrix Human Origins Array that were discovered in African individuals, as well as about 30,000 SNPs chosen for other reasons (that are thought to have been affected by natural selection, or to have phenotypic effects, or are useful in determining Y-chromosome haplogroups). By analyzing this data together with a dataset of 2,345 present-day humans and other published ancient genomes, we showthat late Neolithic inhabitants belonging to the Corded Ware culture were not a continuation of the earlier occupants of the region.Our results highlight the importance of migration and major population turnover in Europe long after the arrival of farming._ 

So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture. I'm sure there will be lots of goodies in the paper. I can't wait to read it.

Thanks to Dienekes for giving excerpts on his blog about all the upcoming papers.

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## LeBrok

> The study is not yet available, but this is the abstract from a Lazaridis and Haak et al paper to be read at the Conference in October: 
> 
> _To understand the population transformations that took place in Europe since the early Neolithic, we used a DNA capture technique to obtain reads covering ~390 thousand single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) from a number of different archaeological cultures of central Europe (Germany and Hungary). The samples spanned the time period from 7,500 BP to 3,500 BP (Early Neolithic to Early Bronze Age periods) and most of them were previously studied using mtDNA (Brandt, Haak et al., Science, 2013). The captured SNPs include about 360,000 SNPs from the Affymetrix Human Origins Array that were discovered in African individuals, as well as about 30,000 SNPs chosen for other reasons (that are thought to have been affected by natural selection, or to have phenotypic effects, or are useful in determining Y-chromosome haplogroups). By analyzing this data together with a dataset of 2,345 present-day humans and other published ancient genomes, we showthat late Neolithic inhabitants belonging to the Corded Ware culture were not a continuation of the earlier occupants of the region.Our results highlight the importance of migration and major population turnover in Europe long after the arrival of farming._ 
> 
> So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture. I'm sure there will be lots of goodies in the paper. I can't wait to read it.
> 
> Thanks to Dienekes for giving excerpts on his blog about all the upcoming papers.


Yep, could bring lots of excitement, can't wait either.




> So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture.


 Well, they might have been new to Central Europe (Germany and Poland area), but coming from Ukraine possibly (Yamna/Maykop cultures) makes them Europeans too. I hope they've tested someone from Yamna or other steppe culture to let us know where they were from, finally.

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## Fire Haired14

This paper will be online in a month?!! 

[QUOTE/]So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture.[QUOTE]

I'm a perfectionist so this is just a minor correction. Corded ware was not the first or only introduction of ANE ancestry into "Europe".

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## Fire Haired14

> Well, they might have been new to Central Europe (Germany and Poland area), but coming from Ukraine possibly (Yamna/Maykop cultures) makes them Europeans too. I hope they've tested someone from Yamna or other steppe culture to let us know where they were from, finally.


I'd like to see Corded ware, Yamna, Andronovo, and Urnfield genomes.

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## Aberdeen

Great find, Angela. I wonder how much detail will be forthcoming for those of us who won't be attending the conference. Hopefully, the paper will be published immediately after the conference, but that doesn't usually seem to be what happens.

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## motzart

Given what we know from the recent farmer study (and others prior) I don't think there are going to be any surprises about who the corded ware men were[spoiler]They are y DNA R1a[/spoiler]. Lactose tolerance and other physical characteristics will be very interesting though.

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## T101

> Given what we know from the recent farmer study (and others prior) I don't think there are going to be any surprises about who the corded ware men were[spoiler]They are y DNA R1a[/spoiler].


Right, but it will be interesting nonetheless to see if they are R1a-Z280, R1a -Y2395, R1a-CTS4385, R1a-L664, or some extinct line. Also, it will be quite informative to learn the the percentages of ANE, WHG, and EEF, along with lactose tolerance and pigmentation as you mentioned.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there was some I1 mixed in there also.

Finally the drought of summer is over and some exciting papers are on the way!

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## Angela

> Given what we know from the recent farmer study (and others prior) I don't think there are going to be any surprises about who the corded ware men were[spoiler]They are y DNA R1a[/spoiler]. Lactose tolerance and other physical characteristics will be very interesting though.


All very interesting issues, no doubt, but the most interesting question for me is how do they break down autosomally, i.e. in terms of EEF/ANE/WHG, as well as in terms of comparisons with modern populations? Given that Lazaridis is one of the lead authors, let's hope they provide all of that information.

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## Alan

> Given what we know from the recent farmer study (and others prior) I don't think there are going to be any surprises about who the corded ware men were[spoiler]They are y DNA R1a[/spoiler]. Lactose tolerance and other physical characteristics will be very interesting though.


Not only R1a* at all. If I am not wrong, three yDNA where identified so far. two R1a* and one either J,I or E*.

But it seems that Corded Ware brought R1a* into Europe. It would be interesting to know if Corded Ware wasn't just an extensdion of Proto_IndoIranian

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## LeBrok

> Not only R1a* at all. If I am not wrong, three yDNA where identified so far. two R1a* and one either J,I or E*.
> 
> But it seems that Corded Ware brought R1a* into Europe. It would be interesting to know if Corded Ware wasn't just an extensdion of Proto_IndoIranian


I was always thinking about Corded Ware as mixture of Yamna hunter-gatherers and Cucuteni farmers. Yamna rich in R1a and Cucuteni J2 and other farmer haplogroups like G and E.

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## bicicleur

> I was always thinking about Corded Ware as mixture of Yamna hunter-gatherers and Cucuteni farmers. Yamna rich in R1a and Cucuteni J2 and other farmer haplogroups like G and E.


Cucuteni farmers were sedentary.
Corded Ware were mobile herders just like Yamna, alltough some corded ware finally settled indeed.

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## Aberdeen

> Not only R1a* at all. If I am not wrong, three yDNA where identified so far. two R1a* and one either J,I or E*.
> 
> But it seems that Corded Ware brought R1a* into Europe. It would be interesting to know if Corded Ware wasn't just an extensdion of Proto_IndoIranian


The samples from Corded Ware sites simply show that initially the R1a brought by the newcomers was mixed with some Neolithic farmer ancestry, and while R1a became quite dominant in parts of Eastern Europe, it didn't wipe out other haplotypes - Eastern Europe is still somewhat of a mixture, although G2 certainly seems to have dwindled a lot.

My guess is that Proto-Indo-Iranian is just an extension of Corded Ware DNA.

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## Goga

> My guess is that Proto-Indo-Iranian is just an extension of Corded Ware DNA.


Are you serious? What happened to the Germanic and proto-Germanic folks, lol! Germans speak Germanic and NOT some kind of Iranic. You will find Iranic speakers in Kurdistan, Iranian Plateau and South Central Asia. As far as I know proto-Iranic people were J2a and (West-Asian type of) R1a + some other minor haplogroups like G2 etc.

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## Goga

> Well, they might have been new to Central Europe (Germany and Poland area), but coming from Ukraine possibly (Yamna/Maykop cultures) makes them Europeans too. I hope they've tested someone from Yamna or other steppe culture to let us know where they were from, finally.


Folks that Indo-Europized Yamna came from Maykop. And it has been proven many times from different fields that folks than belonged to the South-Central Caucasian Maykop culture came from the Iranian Plateau, not far from the south of the Caspian Sea.

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## Robert6

> I was always thinking about Corded Ware as mixture of Yamna hunter-gatherers and Cucuteni farmers. Yamna rich in R1a and Cucuteni J2 and other farmer haplogroups like G and E.


Yamna people had 75%-80% mtdna like the European Neolithic mtdna, and 20-25% Hunter-gatherer mtdna
*
Yamna*
BEN3 : H33c
KAL1 : N1a1a
KAL2 : H*
MAJ3 : U5a1
MAJ4 : U5b2
MAJ5 : X2h (?)
NIK1 : T1a
NIK7 : H (rCRS)
OLE1 : T2
OLE7 : J2b
OVI2 : K
OVI3 : U/K
PEJ1 : U5a1
PES7 : H1a1 or H5a1j
POD1 : W6
POD2 : T2
POP1 : T2a1b
POP3 : U2e
POP4 : U5a1
RIL3 : K1
SUG2 : I1a
SUG6 : H1, H3 or H6
SUG7 : H (rCRS)
SUG8 : H (rCRS)
TET2 : U4a1
VIN2 : T1a
VIN5 : T1a
VIN12 : T1

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...k-pigmentation

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## LeBrok

> Cucuteni farmers were sedentary.
> Corded Ware were mobile herders just like Yamna, alltough some corded ware finally settled indeed.


 And farmers are known to move and settle new areas, even far away.

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## LeBrok

> Yamna people had 75%-80% mtdna like the European Neolithic mtdna, and 20-25% Hunter-gatherer mtdna
> *
> Yamna*
> BEN3 : H33c
> KAL1 : N1a1a
> KAL2 : H*
> MAJ3 : U5a1
> MAJ4 : U5b2
> MAJ5 : X2h (?)
> ...


Are you talking about 75% in variety of mtDNA or frequency of all farmer haplogroups to HGs.

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## Aberdeen

> Are you serious? What happened to the Germanic and proto-Germanic folks, lol! Germans speak Germanic and NOT some kind of Iranic. You will find Iranic speakers in Kurdistan, Iranian Plateau and South Central Asia. As far as I know proto-Iranic people were J2a and (West-Asian type of) R1a + some other minor haplogroups like G2 etc.


I wasn't entirely serious, no. I was responding to what I thought was a ridiculous comment with another ridiculous comment. It's clear that R1a split between Asian and European on the steppes, right about where the Indo-European homeland is assumed to be, and that one branch moved to Iran and became Indo-Iranians and another branch moved into Europe. It appears that the Corded Ware folk brought R1a to Europe, and they seem to have been closely related genetically to the Indo-European R1a types who later followed the same path, branishing bronze weapons, apparently after undergoing some major cultural change, the process of which still doesn't seem to me to be all that clear. But I know you want to believe that everything happened on Mount Zagros, and if you were a christian you'd no doubt believe that the garden of eden was located there.

As has been discussed elsewhere, German developed rather late in the game, as a result of the fusion of IE and non-IE languages, so references to early proto-Germans are of dubious validity, IMO.

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## Robert6

> Are you talking about 75% in variety of mtDNA or frequency of all farmer haplogroups to HGs.


75%-80% of Yamna people had mtDNA haplogroups close to Balkanian Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups

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## Goga

> It's clear that R1a split between Asian and European on the steppes, right about where the Indo-European homeland is assumed to be, and that one branch moved to Iran and became Indo-Iranians and another branch moved into Europe.


100% impossible! Why? Because the ancestral R1a* to the European types of R1a and the Asian types of R1a has been found around the Zagros Mountains and *NOT* in the steppes. And what is your 'proof' of the R1a split in the Steppes? Facts don't lie. But you can still believe in fairytales with you wishful thinking...

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## Alan

> The samples from Corded Ware sites simply show that initially the R1a brought by the newcomers was mixed with some Neolithic farmer ancestry, and while R1a became quite dominant in parts of Eastern Europe, it didn't wipe out other haplotypes - Eastern Europe is still somewhat of a mixture, although G2 certainly seems to have dwindled a lot.
> 
> My guess is that Proto-Indo-Iranian is just an extension of Corded Ware DNA.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. It will be interesting to find out if the individual was actually J* If so, this is initially the prove that J* was part of the Indo European expansion into Europe because no where else was J* jet identified.

As I said in the past and it is getting more and more clear J* expanded most likely during Bronze and Iron Age.

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## Alan

> Yamna people had 75%-80% mtdna like the European Neolithic mtdna, and 20-25% Hunter-gatherer mtdna
> *
> Yamna*
> BEN3 : H33c
> KAL1 : N1a1a
> KAL2 : H*
> MAJ3 : U5a1
> MAJ4 : U5b2
> MAJ5 : X2h (?)
> ...


Interesting no HV* there but 10% HV* in Andronovo, Corded Ware and some Scandinavian culture which its name I don't remember. Another thing which Andronovo and Corded Ware share.

But it might also be just be a sample bias in the Yamnaya samples. Since N* and H* was found so logically their should be some HV* too (child of N* and mother of H*)

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## Angela

This is rank speculation, but I thought I would just put it out there. _If_ ANE existed along a sort of front from the Baltic (with some Mesolithic leakage laterally west into places like Scandinavia) all the way down to at least Iran/Afghanistan, is it possible that the "Indo-European" signal in the northern part of that range (i.e. Corded Ware) was dominated by R1a, but in Iran and the Caucasus was also J2, or at least that J2 became an ANE bearing lineage? 

I ask, because it seems that the ANE component is actually higher in the Caucasus and certain areas of the Near East than it is in Europe, and J2 has not yet been found in a Neolithic context in Europe. Then there's the fact that the Neolithic samples in Europe totally lack the ANE component. What if metal ages J2 also brought ANE to southern Europe? Is that possible? I've been saying for years that the Neolithic farmers who went to Europe from the Middle East, if indeed they were all that different from the inhabitants of, say, the Aegean of the Mesolithic, were different from the Middle Easterners of today, and not just because of some more recent SSA in the Levant and further south. I think the arrival of ANE bearing people may be the larger difference.

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## Angela

> Interesting no HV* there but 10% HV* in Andronovo, Corded Ware and some Scandinavian culture which its name I don't remember. Another thing which Andronovo and Corded Ware share.
> 
> But it might also be just be a sample bias in the Yamnaya samples. Since N* and H* was found so logically their should be some HV* too (child of N* and mother of H*)


I think part of the problem with the analyses of the "H" mtDna lineages is that "H" is treated as a monolithic entity. It isn't, and the distribution in Europe varies depending on the subclade. What I think is pretty clear is that it has a star burst pattern centered on the Middle East. However, I find it totally plausible that it started to move in the late Mesolithic in various directions. So, it may have reached Europe with different migrations at different times.

I've also been saying for ages that mtDna is very much linked to health and fitness, and we already have preliminary results indicating that "H" may confer some selective advantages.

Ed. I hasten to add that I have no personal stake in the matter. I am U2e, and we seem to have lost out in the survival sweepstakes!

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## LeBrok

> 75%-80% of Yamna people had mtDNA haplogroups close to Balkanian Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups


It means that this is how they became farmers. They took EEF genetic admixture, and predisposition to farming lifestyle, from farmers' women overwhelmingly. I suppose paternal line was mostly hunter-gatherer R1a. Having both traits, predisposition to farming (digestion of starches and repetitive work) and hunters' predispositions to living in colder climate of higher latitudes, they became first successful farmers who spread in whole Central-East-North Europe and stayed there forever. First true hybrid, farmers of the north. In contrast to pure Neolithic EEF farmers from south who spread North during warm periods and retreated south during cold spells.

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## Aberdeen

> 100% impossible! Why? Because the ancestral R1a* to the European types of R1a and the Asian types of R1a has been found around the Zagros Mountains and *NOT* in the steppes. And what is your 'proof' of the R1a split in the Steppes? Facts don't lie. But you can still believe in fairytales with you wishful thinking...


And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.

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## Sile

> And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.


It was not R1a*............it was R* ...........it was neither R1 or R2 branch and now this R* is noted as extinct.

Basal R-M207 origins is in south-east asia ( sundaland) ...read the karafet paper of June 2014

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## Alan

Sile and Aberdeen it is not extinct it is still found in South_Central Asia among Kalash. P* is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia but I doubt that R* originatedn there.

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## Alan

> And the ancestor of R1a* was found in Siberia 24,000 years ago. So, using your logic, Indo-Iranians must be Siberian. Or maybe it would make more sense to admit that where ancestral R was 24,000 years ago doesn't tell us where R1a* must have been 15,000 years ago and that where R1a* was 15,000 years ago doesn't tell us where RZ283 or RZ93 must have been 5000 years ago. People migrate, and sometime they back-migrate.


Just because it was fuound in Siberia doesn't mean it originated there It simply meeans it has reached Siberia already 24000 years ago. Another Indication for that is that this individuals autosomal DNA is more akine to West Eurasians. so he must have migrated there from further West. 

Also we don't have any South_Central or West Asian dna from the same timeline yet. Who tells us that we will not find any 24000 year old R* in South_Central Asia too?




> Genetic analysis of Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) by Firasat et al. (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of these Y-DNA Haplogroups: L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%).

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## Sile

> Sile and Aberdeen it is not extinct it is still found in South_Central Asia among Kalash. P* is believed to have originated in Southeast Asia but I doubt that R* originatedn there.


I am saying that the Karafet paper plus Big-Y and Yfull people have all placed the origins of R-M207 in java, borneo and sumatra

the new dating for R is not older than 29000 and not younger than 22500

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## Alan

> I am saying that the Karafet paper plus Big-Y and Yfull people have all placed the origins of R-M207 in java, borneo and sumatra
> 
> the new dating for R is not older than 29000 and not younger than 22500




But regarding R* they have absolutely no proof or indication for that. They simply did that based on their own assumption (similar to the paleolithic R1b story ) because we now know P* probably originated somewhere between Southeast and South Asia. It must have been some euphoric decision. I bet in a few years new studies will point to South_Central Asian origin of it.

There is absolutely nothing which could indiciate a Southeast Asian origin of R*. But allot of reasons to assume a South_Central Asian origin for it.

I personally believe this. P* originated in Southeast Asiia/South Asia. moves into South_Central Asia becomes R* moves into various directions and becomes either in West Asia or Central Asia R1* and mutates into R1b and R1a* either in West Asia , Central Asia or the Pontic Steppes.

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## Sile

> But regarding R* they have absolutely no proof or indication for that. They simply did that based on their own assumption because we now know P* probably originated somewhere between Southeast and South Asia.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing which could indiciate an Southeast Asian origin of R*. But allot of reasons to assume a South_Central Asian origin for it.
> 
> I personally believe this. P* originated in Southeast Asiia/South Asia. moves into South_Central Asia becomes R* moves into various directions and becomes either in West Asia or Central Asia R1* and mutates into R1b and R1a* either in West Asia , Central Asia or the Pontic Steppes.


There is no indication that R* is anywhere until we find it in siberia, but karafet and these others have found basal R-M207 in the areas I noted above @7% and also 8000years before the creation of the next R subclade

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## Alan

And adding to that the Mal'ta individual was something like 70% West Eurasian autosomally and only some 10-15% Southeast Asian like. How could such an individual originated in Southeast Asia?

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## Sile

> And adding to that the Mal'ta individual was something like 70% West Eurasian autosomally and only some 10-15% Southeast Asian like. How could such an individual originated in Southeast Asia?


the individual's marker is stated as *not* R1 nor R2 branches..........could be a rogue marker ............at one stage he could have been any of 5 different haplogroups.

read the karafet paper, it is accepted and the new groupings are accepted by all, they are IIRC
k1 = T and L
K2a = N and O
K2b = P331
K2b2 = P - P295 .................from this came 
R-M207 ,
8000 years later came R-M420 and R-M173, 
3000 years later R-M417

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## Alan

> There is no indication that R* is anywhere until we find it in siberia, but karafet and these others have found basal R-M207 in the areas I noted above @7% and also 8000years before the creation of the next R subclade


OK so they found 7% R* in Southeast Asia. And who is going to prove that this is not simply an indiciation of an early or even late migration from South_Central Asia to there? this basal R* was also found in Kalash @7% and other Central Asians too. But additional to that the Kalash are also autosomaly allot closer to the Mal'ta individual. This is a strong indiciation that Mal'ta came from somewhere in South_Central Asia and not Southeast Asia.

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## Alan

> the individual's marker is stated as *not* R1 nor R2 branches..........could be a rogue marker ............at one stage he could have been any of 5 different haplogroups


But aren't we talking about R* here? I also never claimed the individual was R1 or R2.

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## Sile

> OK so they found 7% R* in Southeast Asia. And who is going to prove that this is not simply an indiciation of an early or even late migration from South_Central Asia to there? this basal R* was also found in Kalash @7% and other Central Asians too. But additional to that the Kalash are also autosomaly allot closer to the Mal'ta individual. This is a strong indiciation that Mal'ta came from somewhere in South_Central Asia and not Southeast Asia.


no, they found 7% of R-M207

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## Sile

> But aren't we talking about R* here? I also never claimed the individual was R1 or R2.


ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone

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## Alan

> ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone



I think we are talking past each other. That R* have no association with R1 or R2 has not much to do with Mal'ta with haplogroup R* having autosomally up to 70% West Eurasian DNA and so is unlikely to have arrived from somewhere in Southeast Asia.

Thats the point.

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## MOESAN

I agree with Angela (hello!) concerning mt-H: a lot of mt-H is not of "neolithical" origin: "neolithical" is confusing, Corded W people were "neolithical" too but distinct from the earlier farmers of Europe passed through Anatolia - Finns have a lot of mt-H and are not too "neolithical", not more than the Atlantic forefront people -

concerning farming and nomadisme, mor than a scientist thinks that some of the Cucuteni-Tripolye cultures people turned into a half-nomadic breeding way of life for climatic reasons (the cattle among Pontic people would have been from Balkans or Carpathinas regions)

physically, even if not of a pure stock, the Corded people send into Europe types very distinct from the neolithical Danubians, were a modern 'nordic' type is strongly represented, and something evocating the 'indo-irano-afghan' type -
genetically, someones say their mt-DNA evocates the Baltic people, but this statute could have changed with time, with crossings with local females in central-noerthern Germany

concerning language I think Corded spoke already an I-Ean maybe on the way to satemization, a trait common (seemingly) to descendants of steppic tribes (turkic influences??? or some Ugric ones??? - not sure but?) - they took part in the germanic cristallization like others but THEY WERE NOT THE PROTO GERMANIC (maybe here we have the explanation of apparently strong links between germanic and slavic languages, to take with caution neverhteless) - by the way theirphysical means apparented them, partially, to supposed Iranic people of Antiquity (not today Iranians) - to tell they were an iranic speaking people is for the fun, but maybe they were not strangers to the proto-Iranics

that said, Corded shew culturally affinities with the Battle-Axes people of South-Baltic and the 'boat-shaped Axes' ('haches naviformes') of Scandinavia were a proto-satem language could have been spoken before germanic: first I-E introgression into SW Finnland?

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## MOESAN

I add:
that said, Corded shew culturally affinities with the Battle-Axes people of South-Baltic and the 'boat-shaped Axes' ('haches naviformes') of Scandinavia were a proto-satem language could have been spoken before germanic: first I-E introgression into SW Finnland?
*and before finnic language*

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## MOESAN

> ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone


R207 is not R*??? yes it is

by the fact you seem assuming that a human being bearing a y-R* HG has nothing to do autosomally with an other human being bearing a "son" successive SNP on the chain??? Curious, or I didn't understand your point ? according to the time passed and to crossings and drifts, they could have very different genes but also very close genes, no?
every separation by added mutation on the Y-HG does not cut brutally the chain of heredity -

it's true that two ligneages bearing the same Y-SNP can have different lifs and histories with the subsequent modification in autosomals

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## Aberdeen

> It was not R1a*............it was R* ...........it was neither R1 or R2 branch and now this R* is noted as extinct.
> 
> Basal R-M207 origins is in south-east asia ( sundaland) ...read the karafet paper of June 2014


I never said that Mal'ta Boy was R1a - I said that it was ancestral R. Please learn how to read. And R1a would have evolved from some line of R1*, which would have evolved from some line of R*. I think that's fairly obvious, at least if one is using R* to denote R haplotype not yet further differentiated. However, it seems that some people are instead using the asterisk to denote an extinct line.

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## Aberdeen

> Just because it was fuound in Siberia doesn't mean it originated there It simply meeans it has reached Siberia already 24000 years ago. Another Indication for that is that this individuals autosomal DNA is more akine to West Eurasians. so he must have migrated there from further West. 
> 
> Also we don't have any South_Central or West Asian dna from the same timeline yet. Who tells us that we will not find any 24000 year old R* in South_Central Asia too?


You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.

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## Aberdeen

> ok, still R* has no association with R1 or R2 , so there is no point in trying to say that this R* siberian is this amount of western markers or that amount of markers. R* stands alone


Edited version:

Some people use R* to refer to people who have the R haplotype not yet further differentiated, so that's how I was using the term. For example, in his discussion of R1a, Maciamo said:

"Haplogroup R1a probably branched off from R1* during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about its place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia."







However, I had a quick look around the internet and found that some sites do use the asterisk to denote a subclade that became extinct. So I guess the usage is not consistent.

----------


## Sile

> R207 is not R*??? yes it is
> 
> by the fact you seem assuming that a human being bearing a y-R* HG has nothing to do autosomally with an other human being bearing a "son" successive SNP on the chain??? Curious, or I didn't understand your point ? according to the time passed and to crossings and drifts, they could have very different genes but also very close genes, no?
> every separation by added mutation on the Y-HG does not cut brutally the chain of heredity -
> 
> it's true that two ligneages bearing the same Y-SNP can have different lifs and histories with the subsequent modification in autosomals


_ The Mal'ta boy, MA-1, carried distinct yDNA R* and mtDNA U* lineages. While both are clearly related to those dominant in Europe and parts of Asia (West, South) nowadays, they are also distinct from any specific dominant lineage today.
_

_ R* (yDNA) is neither R1 nor R2 but another distinct branch of R. This kind of R(xR1, R2) is most rare today and found mostly in and around NW South Asia. Following Wikipedia, this "other R" is found in:_

_10.3% among the Burusho__6.8% among the Kalash_
_3.4% among the Gujarati
_
_
study by Wei-Hua Shou et al. (2010) titled Y-chromosome distributions among populations in Northwest China identify significant contribution from Central Asian pastoralists and lesser influence of western Eurasians, published by Nature (doi:10.1038/jhg.2010.30).

While it does add some information about unmistakable R(xR1,R2) and P(xQ,R) among Central Asian populations (from P.R. China territory). In detail:
_
_R* is found in 5/31 Tayiks, 1/41 Kazakhs and 1/50 Uyghurs.__P* is found in 1/31 Tayiks and 1/43 Kirgizes._

----------


## Angela

> You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.


I think that's correct. If we've learned anything, it's that our predictions about y dna, in particular, can be very wrong. Who expected E-V13 in the western Mediterranean Neolithic, or that we wouldn't have found J2 in the European Neolithic? I think we've also learned that ancient populations moved around _a lot._

----------


## Sile

> Edited version:
> 
> Some people use R* to refer to people who have the R haplotype not yet further differentiated, so that's how I was using the term. For example, in his discussion of R1a, Maciamo said:
> 
> "Haplogroup R1a probably branched off from R1* during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about its place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please, please read Karafet June 2014 paper or will it upset you to find that R is not west-asian , but south-east Asia in origin.

The bulk of people who *you read that are* claiming this marker is R1a or R1b this or that in origin *always leave out the subclade* , because they want that R1a or R1b to be western . Read the paper to check how ydna trees work

Mal'ta should have been noted as R0 and not R* as he is 71 SNPs away from R1 and 260 SNP's away from R2 . As i said he does not belong to R1 or R2
*In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades
*
On plotting charts he sits on his own

----------


## Sile

> I think we are talking past each other. R* have no association with R1 or R2 has not much to do with Mal'ta with haplogroup R* having autosomally up to 70% West Eurasian DNA and so is unlikely to have arrived from somewhere in Southeast Asia.
> 
> Thats the point.


*In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades

*Mal'ta has no association with west eurasian , south Eurasian , martian Eurasian or anything else in relation to people today, this is because it will count for nothing, his SNP's are too far from modern man, you are only "tricking" people in thinking they might be related to this person back in the ancienrt times

----------


## Goga

R1a in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains is not only the oldest but also one of the most DIVERSE. You can find all kind of types of R1a in Kurdistan and not only 1 specific R1a lineage of 1 branch (bottleneck). But many different branches.

----------


## Sile

> R1a in Kurdistan Zagros Mountains is not only the oldest but also one of the most DIVERSE. You can find all kind of types of R1a in Kurdistan and not only 1 specific R1a lineage of 1 branch (bottleneck). But many different branches.


here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero

----------


## Goga

> here we go again...............which subclade ? ..........the R1a on its own means zero

----------


## Goga

As you CAN see here : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html , R1a in West Asia is MUCH more diverse than R1a elsewhere, be it in Europe, the Steppes or Central Asia! R1a in the eastern Europe is mostly from Z283. R1a in Central Asia is mostly from Z93. R1a in West Asia has EVERYTHING!

----------


## Sile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4

just look at the above link...........vanOven has already updated the haplogroup trees ( see bottom one ) ...*updated June 2014*

Everyone in genetics has accepted it..............move on

----------


## Goga

R1a in West Asia = the oldest : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html
R1a in West Asia = the most diverse! : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html

----------


## Sile

> As you CAN see here : http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/0...t-al-2014.html , R1a in West Asia is MUCH more diverse than R1a elsewhere, be it in Europe, the Steppes or Central Asia! R1a in the eastern Europe is mostly from Z283. R1a in Central Asia is mostly from Z93. R1a in West Asia has EVERYTHING!


Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is *8000 years younger* than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

M420 is not a basal marker of R ...it is a "basal" marker for R1a ...if the term basal is accepted in this method

----------


## Goga

> Everyone in genetics has accepted it..............move on


Accepted what?

----------


## Goga

> Ok, R1a-M420 is what you say, but that marker is *8000 years younger* than R-M207 and R-M207 is Basal for R and its in South-east Asia...read the karafet paper
> 
> http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
> 
> M420 is not a basal marker


I'm not denying that R could be from South-East Asia. I'm only saying that R1a AND R1b evolved somewhere around the Iranian Plateau, Zagros Mountains and migrated into Europe AND India with proto-Indo-European speaking folks. The SPLIT between Z283 and Z93 of R1a occurred in West Asia! 1 branch (Z283) migrated into the Steppes, second branch (z93) went into South Central Asia. Why? Because R1a is in West Asia the oldest and the most diverse. That's why!

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

Vs.

----------


## Goga

As you can SEE the R1a in Europe and Central Asia is VERY young AND *monotonous*. Which suggest that R1a in those areas is heavily bottlenecked and very recent immigrant in those areas!

----------


## Alan

> You're making my point for me. Saying that a particular haplotype was in a particular location at a particular time does not prove that a downstream version must have evolved in that location. And that was the only point I was really making. Even if Goga can prove that some R1a* types were living in Iran 15000 years ago, that doesn't prove anything about where Z283 and Z93 evolved.


Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is that it lacks z93 and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.

So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.

But thats just my opinion.

----------


## LeBrok

> Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is *that it lacks z93* and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.
> 
> So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.
> 
> But thats just my opinion.


Z93 is not very old. It might happen after the split of IE into West and East (Indo-Iranian) groups in the Steppe.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Sure that doesn't prove it but the point what makes an Pontic_Caspian Steppe origin of R1a* unlikely is that it lacks z93 and anyother upstream R1a in that region. So we would have to assume R1a* migrated from the Steppes into West and South_Central Asia and than died out in it's original homeland. That would be too much of coincidence for my taste.
> 
> So no I rather stay on my theory that P* originated somewhere in Southeast Asia close to South Asia. Moved into South_Central Asia evolved to R* and somewhere between South_Central Asia and West Asia evolved to R1a and R1b.
> 
> But thats just my opinion.


As has been said multiple times, when we talk about the IE homeland, one of the issues is not where R1a first evolved, but where the separation between Z283 and Z93 occurred. That probably happened about 5000 years ago, just about when the IE folk first started spreading east and west from their steppe homeland.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Please, please read Karafet June 2014 paper or will it upset you to find that R is not west-asian , but south-east Asia in origin.
> 
> The bulk of people who *you read that are* claiming this marker is R1a or R1b this or that in origin *always leave out the subclade* , because they want that R1a or R1b to be western . Read the paper to check how ydna trees work
> 
> Mal'ta should have been noted as R0 and not R* as he is 71 SNPs away from R1 and 260 SNP's away from R2 . As i said he does not belong to R1 or R2
> *In human genetics, * is used to denote that someone is a member of a haplogroup and not any of its subclades
> *
> On plotting charts he sits on his own


I've read the Karafet paper, and I'd like to note that assumptions can be wrong. When you can show me old DNA from south-east Asia that support the view taken in that paper, then we can talk. And the issue of where R first evolved is not really relevant for this thread anyway. I just mentioned Siberia and Mal'ta Boy to show that results from a much earlier time period aren't really relevant to a discussion of where downstream subclades may have evolved, since people migrate. I'm not sure why some of you have trouble keeping different time periods separate.

----------


## Sile

> I've read the Karafet paper, and I'd like to note that assumptions can be wrong. When you can show me old DNA from south-east Asia that support the view taken in that paper, then we can talk. And the issue of where R first evolved is not really relevant for this thread anyway. I just mentioned Siberia and Mal'ta Boy to show that results from a much earlier time period aren't really relevant to a discussion of where downstream subclades may have evolved, since people migrate. I'm not sure why some of you have trouble keeping different time periods separate.


What do you mean assumptions?, there is always assumptions, that is how we have moved on in the last 10, 20, 30 years ...with assumptions. Its now the current format and will remain the format until the geneticists decide to change it............since its accepted by all geneticts, then we live with it.
see this 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4

vanOven runs all the mtdna and all the ydna for all the genetic papers, they follow this paper , until a point in time that it is proven wrong.

On Mal'ta boy, he is R*..........he has no other subclades and never will be found any other subclades within him. I do not know why people even mention him. 
* = no more subclades........end of the line
someone asked to name him R0, but was denied because it was found he had no other markers

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## gyms

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf 
The position of MA-1 on the phylogenetic tree is established by
the state of the 313 basal mutations separating hgs DE and R, where MA-1 has 143
informative positions. Of these, 138 are in the derived and 5 in the ancestral state,
placing MA-1 as a lineage basal to hg R. With only a few exceptions characterized
below, all other informative positions in MA-1 are in the ancestral state, further
supporting the phylogenetic positioning of MA-1 on the tree.
Among the derived markers in the final dataset only a few (11) mutations were
detected that are likely to be false positives based on the phylogenetic analysis, where
it is assumed that recurrent mutation is less likely than a sequencing error. One
position among the 35 private to MA-1 is characteristic of a distant hg – namely
C3c14. Based on current data, 10 additional phylogenetically non-concordant
positions in MA-1 were found – 1 position for hgs E, G, Q, R1b, R1 each, 2 defining
positions for hg I and 3 private mutations for R1b individuals (shown in red on Figure
SI 5a). Additionally, among the mutations originally excluded (the reference-private
mutations), two positions were found where MA-1 is in derived state.

----------


## Aberdeen

> What do you mean assumptions?, there is always assumptions, that is how we have moved on in the last 10, 20, 30 years ...with assumptions. Its now the current format and will remain the format until the geneticists decide to change it............since its accepted by all geneticts, then we live with it.
> see this 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragro...-vanOven2014-4
> 
> vanOven runs all the mtdna and all the ydna for all the genetic papers, they follow this paper , until a point in time that it is proven wrong.
> 
> On Mal'ta boy, he is R*..........he has no other subclades and never will be found any other subclades within him. I do not know why people even mention him. 
> * = no more subclades........end of the line
> someone asked to name him R0, but was denied because it was found he had no other markers


It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy was an early form of Y haplotype R, since that's what the tests show. It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy died without leaving any direct descendants, since his skeleton shows that he died before reaching adolescence. It is an assumption that a child wasn't wandering around Siberia hunting mammoths on his own, but it's a fairly reasonable assumption. And, given how small the Eurasian population was 24000 years ago, and given that R hadn't yet developed into subclades at that point, it's quite reasonable to assume that one of Mal'ta Boy's close relatives was the ancestor of the folk who became R1a and R1b thousands of years later. And that's why so many people mention Mal'ta Boy. As for the paper about R and southeast Asia that you think is conclusive, it seems to me to do a lot of mental gymnastics and unproven assumptions to get to where it gets to.

Maybe you should do a bit of reading about how genetics actually works. I've been reading up on the subject, and it's quite fascinating.

----------


## Angela

> It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy was an early form of Y haplotype R, since that's what the tests show. It's not an assumption that Mal'ta Boy died without leaving any direct descendants, since his skeleton shows that he died before reaching adolescence. It is an assumption that a child wasn't wandering around Siberia hunting mammoths on his own, but it's a fairly reasonable assumption. And, given how small the Eurasian population was 24000 years ago, and given that R hadn't yet developed into subclades at that point, it's quite reasonable to assume that one of Mal'ta Boy's close relatives was the ancestor of the folk who became R1a and R1b thousands of years later. And that's why so many people mention Mal'ta Boy. As for the paper about R and southeast Asia that you think is conclusive, it seems to me to do a lot of mental gymnastics and unproven assumptions to get to where it gets to.
> 
> Maybe you should do a bit of reading about how genetics actually works. I've been reading up on the subject, and it's quite fascinating.


And there you have it, proving yet again that the one thing that is absolutely necessary for this as for any intellectual endeavor is the ability to think logically. It helps if you can see the forest instead of obsessing on the trees too. :)

----------


## kamani

It's strange we find R* in Siberia 24000 years ago, and F* in the Central Europe/Balkans 5000 years ago. Did all the population booms extinctions and evolutions between F and R, happen in Russia?

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## Robert6

> It's strange we find R* in Siberia 24000 years ago, and F* in the Central Europe/Balkans 5000 years ago. Did all the population booms extinctions and evolutions between F and R, happen in Russia?


Neolithic European F* didn't extinct, they are in central Europe 
https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

----------


## Robert6

> So, as per the paper, the third genetic wave to hit Europe has now been proven to have been manifested in Corded Ware Culture. I'm sure there will be lots of goodies in the paper. I can't wait to read it.


Component ANE peaks among East Caucasians and Burusho people
So possibly the people of Corded ware culture brought the Pre-Germanic substrate. 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...rthern-Eurasia

----------


## Robert6

Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.

----------


## T101

More evidence of Corded Ware bringing population change in Northern Europe over at _Anthropologie:_

http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/article.php?ID=1549

An analysis by David on the topic over at Polishgenes Blog:

Corded Ware people: more versatile and healthier than Neolithic farmers

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014...atile-and.html

----------


## LeBrok

> Corded Ware people: more versatile and healthier than Neolithic farmers


 Eventually they have turned in fully blown farmers themselves a thousand years later. 
This cultural turnover was mainly caused by climatic changes and collapse of Neolithic farming in this part of the world. Corded Ware nomads were more suited for the harsher conditions and filled the vacuum, so to speak.

----------


## MOESAN

> Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
> So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.


_it's not sure - Corded could have been proto-satem language speakers, close to proto-slavo-baltic tribes - 
I see them becoming 'germanic' in N-W Europe after assimilation into a mix of others people where neolitihical descendants were very seldom, and new ones, rather Y-R1b-U106 and Y-I1 people were the bulk -
the first proto-germanic (centum) element could have been some Y-R1b-U152 group (old northwestern I-Ean, akin to celtic, italic, ligurian, germanic) acculturating the others in the Saale area and then into Jutland and Scandia, with a consonnant drift due, perhaps, to Y-I1 population (not to the haplogroup!)_

----------


## Robert6

> _it's not sure - Corded could have been proto-satem language speakers, close to proto-slavo-baltic tribes - 
> I see them becoming 'germanic' in N-W Europe after assimilation into a mix of others people where neolitihical descendants were very seldom, and new ones, rather Y-R1b-U106 and Y-I1 people were the bulk -
> the first proto-germanic (centum) element could have been some Y-R1b-U152 group (old northwestern I-Ean, akin to celtic, italic, ligurian, germanic) acculturating the others in the Saale area and then into Jutland and Scandia, with a consonnant drift due, perhaps, to Y-I1 population (not to the haplogroup!)_


Slavic and Baltic language families, separated 3100-3400 years ago, this is 1000-1500 years less than the Corded Ware culture Era, while Slavic languages are 1400-1600 years old.
Possibly Slavic languages came from Steppe region, together with Huns(Hunnic words Strava Med).
The Suobeni/Suoveni (Sloveni?) were between Rha(Volga) river and southern Urals.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Also in Poland before the Slavic language were spoken Germanic dialects.
> So the R1a is possibly Pre-Germanic in Europe.


The Corded Ware folk arrived in Europe long before the German language evolved. We don't know what language Corded Ware people spoke, but it certainly wasn't Proto-German.

----------


## Robert6

> The Corded Ware folk arrived in Europe long before the German language evolved. We don't know what language Corded Ware people spoke, but it certainly wasn't Proto-German.


My mistake, I wanted to say that R1a in Europe are Pre-Germanic people, people who were there before(pre=before) of those who brought Germanic languges, and those who gave substratum to Germanic languges

----------


## Aberdeen

> My mistake, I wanted to say that R1a in Europe are Pre-Germanic people, people who were there before(pre=before) of those who brought Germanic languges, and those who gave substratum to Germanic languges


No, probably not. R1a seems to have first entered Europe about 5000 years ago, bringing ANE ancestry with them, so they're clearly related genetically to the Indo-Europeans who followed them, and although we don't know whether they spoke an IE language, some people seem to think they did. We can't say for sure they didn't.

----------


## Robert6

> No, probably not. R1a seems to have first entered Europe about 5000 years ago, bringing ANE ancestry with them, so they're clearly related genetically to the Indo-Europeans who followed them, and although we don't know whether they spoke an IE language, some people seem to think they did. We can't say for sure they didn't.


ANE clearly is peaking among Macro-Caucasians, like the Burusho and N.Caucasians

----------


## Robert6

R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic, 
and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.

----------


## Aberdeen

> ANE clearly is peaking among Macro-Caucasians, like the Burusho and N.Caucasians


So? That does nothing to alter the fact that R1a Corded Ware folk were ANE.

----------


## Robert6

> So? That does nothing to alter the fact that R1a Corded Ware folk were ANE.


So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian

----------


## Aberdeen

> R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic, 
> and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.


No, the pre-IE substratum in German would have come from Neolithic farmers who kept their language and culture in the forests of Germany long after the IE folk had triumphed elsewhere.

----------


## Robert6

> So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian


Also Corded Ware ceramics(*Pengtoushan culture*) were found in Chinese Neolithic

----------


## Robert6

> No, the pre-IE substratum in German would have come from Neolithic farmers who kept their language and culture in the forests of Germany long after the IE folk had triumphed elsewhere.


Germanic begin to spread in Iron age mostly together with hidden in Scandinavia Neolithic I1 haplogroup, so the substratum should be from Bronze age(R1a).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0BC-1AD%29.png

Red: Settlements before 750 BC
Orange: New settlements by 500 BC
Yellow: New settlements by 250 BC
Green: New settlements by AD 1

----------


## Aberdeen

> Also Corded Ware ceramics(*Pengtoushan culture*) were found in Chinese Neolithic


So what? That just proves that R1a had a wide distribution in Asia even before Corded Ware and IE spread it to Europe. I'm sure any Neolithic Chinese R1a folk spoke a different language that Corded Ware or IE folk.

----------


## Aberdeen

> So the R1a Corded Ware folk were Macro-Caucasian


No. Where ANE peaks in current populations only gives you information about current populations.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Germanic begin to spread in Iron age mostly together with hidden in Scandinavia Neolithic I1 haplogroup, so the substratum should be from Bronze age(R1a).
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0BC-1AD%29.png
> 
> Red: Settlements before 750 BC
> Orange: New settlements by 500 BC
> Yellow: New settlements by 250 BC
> Green: New settlements by AD 1


German may have spread from Germany or it may have spread from Scandinavia. In either case, that does not preclude the survival of pre-IE languages during the Bronze or Iron Age in that area. Pre-IE languages survived into the Iron Age in other parts of Europe, even though they didn't contribute as much to IE languages as the Neolithic substratum did in Germany or Scandinavia.

----------


## Robert6

> So what? That just proves that R1a had a wide distribution in Asia even before Corded Ware and IE spread it to Europe. I'm sure any Neolithic Chinese R1a folk spoke a different language that Corded Ware or IE folk.


Chinese Neolithic came from southern part of Central Asia via Wakhan Corridor that is close to Burusho(Macro-Caucasian, Sino-Caucasian) people.

----------


## Aberdeen

> Chinese Neolithic came from southern part of Central Asia via Wakhan Corridor that is close to Burusho(Macro-Caucasian, Sino-Caucasian) people.


The Burusho are a modern people who are mainly R2a not R1a and don't appear to be native to the area where they now live, according to Wikipedia.

----------


## Robert6

> R1a possibly gave Macro-Caucasian substratum to Germanic, 
> and after that, the R1a possibly gave Germanic adstratum to Slavic.


For example the Burusho people have a Suffix "sk"(Burusha-ski)

This Suffix "sk" is also in Germanic languages
Sven-ska(as substratum from Macro-Caucasian)

And in Leto-Slavic languages
Pol-ska(as adstratum from Germanic)

----------


## Robert6

> The Burusho are a modern people who are mainly R2a not R1a and don't appear to be native to the area where they now live, according to Wikipedia.


No the R1a among Burusho is 25,8+2,1=27.9%
And also Burusho people have the highest diversity of haplogroup P in the Region
R1a_ 27.9%
R1*_ 1%
R2__ 14.4%
R*__ 10,3%
Q___ 2.1%
P*__ 1%


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201726a.html

----------


## Aberdeen

> For example the Burusho people have a Suffix "sk"(Burusha-ski)
> 
> This Suffix "sk" is also in Germanic languages
> Sven-ska(as substratum from Macro-Caucasian)
> 
> And in Leto-Slavic languages
> Pol-ska(as adstratum from Germanic)


You just made a good case for sk being IE. A modern composite population like the Burusho may have acquired DNA, culture and/or language from a variety of sources but you really need to know your history before guessing about those sources.

----------


## MOESAN

> Slavic and Baltic language families, separated 3100-3400 years ago, this is 1000-1500 years less than the Corded Ware culture Era, while Slavic languages are 1400-1600 years old.
> Possibly Slavic languages came from Steppe region, together with Huns(Hunnic words Strava Med).
> The Suobeni/Suoveni (Sloveni?) were between Rha(Volga) river and southern Urals.


_I'm not sure of what your answer want assert - cultures are n't born suddenly, they have had all of them some previous stage or stageS (if cultural admixtures_ or _assimilations) -Corded began about the 3000/2900 BC, OK, but that don"t disrpove they could have been already an I-Ean language, and even a proto-satem one (not completely evolved satem)... some of their genetic traits seem link them to Baltic people, accroding to some surveys._.._that said, my proposition was a bet, nothing more, waiting for more reliable data_

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## Robert6

> Z93 is not very old. It might happen after the split of IE into West and East (Indo-Iranian) groups in the Steppe.


Migration of proto-Indo-Aryans, but the R1a-Z93 is in the opposite side 
http://i023.radikal.ru/1407/59/cd24245b498a.png

Around the Dnieper river, L. Kleijn place the proto-Indo-Aryans, 
but there is no R1a-Z93 around the Dnieper river.

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## LeBrok

It is fine. Indo Europeans has spread along the steppe from Ukraine to Mongolia. The ones around Kazakhstan developed Z93 and around same time became Indo-Iranians. From Kazakhstan they have moved down South. That's why Z93 is only there.
We had this discussion here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...an-split-of-IE

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## John Doe

> It is fine. Indo Europeans has spread along the steppe from Ukraine to Mongolia. The ones around Kazakhstan developed Z93 and around same time became Indo-Iranians. From Kazakhstan they have moved down South. That's why Z93 is only there.
> We had this discussion here:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...an-split-of-IE


While it's unconfirmed, I wouldn't be surprised if they were predominantely ANE.

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## Robert6

> It is fine. Indo Europeans has spread along the steppe from Ukraine to Mongolia. The ones around Kazakhstan developed Z93 and around same time became Indo-Iranians. From Kazakhstan they have moved down South. That's why Z93 is only there.
> We had this discussion here:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...an-split-of-IE


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...220#post441220
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...p-did-they-had

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## MOESAN

suppositions based upon an inextricable mix of diverse data:
the Yamna People were a mix of dominent 'corded' physical type (not culture), so high statured dolichocephalic people where I see the robust longiligne 'nordic' type mixed with robust ess longiligne 'brünnoids' + sub-dolichocephalic broader faced 'cromagnoid' - the Kurgans cultures of the Steppes show everytime high %s of dolichocephalic robust people mixed with a minority of brachycephals, planoccipital = 'dinaroid' or 'armenoid' (# armenian!) - very often the brachycephals are females! - 
as the planocciptal brachycephals appeared lately in Armenia and South Caucasus, I think the most of this component came from the Carpathian mountains, rich enough even in the 1950's, forthe 'dinaric' type: this population, surely local Hunters-Gatherers at first, underwent (for some time) domination of southern or northeastern dolichocephalic newcomers at Neolithic, then at bronze Ages or just before - they were in the "Hurricane Eye" between Neolithic agricultors and then metallurgists, and the seppic folks - 
if I believe Coon, the cultures associated to the *Corded CWC in Ukraina show more mixture than the Corded (dolichos) of Germany* and the element present among special BBs of Britain (# other BBs of South), so I suppose the original Corded people were the 'non-dinaric' ones - we can suppose the brachycephalic element was of Y-I2a1 or I2a2 ligneages, when the dolichicocephallic one was of Y-R1a ligneage (+ some others Y-I >> Y-I1, not dinaricized, and rare enough? - 
Russian scholars think the 'cromagnoids' came from South Baltic West (Maglemose?) to East and met high dolichocephals in N-Russia before Neolithic; we can suppose they spoke a non-uralic language: the region at the N-E of Moscow in Russia show still today some percentages of Y-I2a2 (5-8%) and Y-I1 (10-12%), drowned among Y-R1a and Y-N1...
I suppose _northern_ Y-R1a and the neighbours had some serious ANE autosomals component in them and the presence of this ANE in today Iran, Kurdistan, Pakistan and so on, doesn' tprove this ANE came from South: I prefer think it's the result of the constant contacts between Steppes semi-nomadic pastors and the southern people East the Caspian Sea (Bogdiana, Ferghana etc...) reinforced by Iranic tribes, later -maybe original Y-R1a had not, how to know? and the current presence of oldest clades of Y-R1a in the Zagros region and surroundings _don' prove us_ *they had always been there* -
R1a can have colonized at some time a huge territory, speaking at some stage a proto-indo-iranic language (contacts: loanwords proto-I-E and proto-Iranic in Finnic-Ugric languages) even if it was not (I 'm not sure) their primary language? the European y-R1a are the product of a demographic boom upon a R1a root closer to the origin ("iranic-like")??? To conclude, I prefer see the origin of ANE in South-central Asia, not in South-Asia - the today presence in Near-East can be explained by more than an historical event (Hurrits, even Sumerians, and after Iranians of Steppes, a bit with Mongols and Turks... with different cultures - 
reading other threads about Germanics and first Finns (history) and germanic language or slavic (linguistic) is interesting too because human beings history links all these aspects and some links can be dragged -

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