# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  How did Proto-Indo-Europeans (R* R1b/R1a) lose Mongoloid characteristics?

## Ack

The emergence of haplogroup R * is related to the Siberian culture of Mal'ta – Buret '. But it has been shown that the boy from Malta had a Mongoloid phenotype very similar to today's Siberian populations, dark eyes and hair. We know that people from Yamnaya Culture had a fairly high percentage of ANE genetics, but how did Yamnaya people become 'Caucasian' in the process? Was the ANE population losing its Mongoloid character as they advanced on the steppe and possibly mixed with other populations on the way? 

By the term 'Caucasian' I am referring to the craniofacial characterization that we are used to seeing in Europeans and other western Asian populations today.

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## etrusco

[QUOTE=Ack;590783]The emergence of haplogroup R * is related to the Siberian culture of Mal'ta – Buret '. But it has been shown that the boy from Malta had a Mongoloid phenotype very similar to today's Siberian populations, dark eyes and hair. We know that people from Yamnaya Culture had a fairly high percentage of ANE genetics, but how did Yamnaya people become 'Caucasian' in the process? Was the ANE population losing its Mongoloid character as they advanced on the steppe and possibly mixed with other populations on the way? 


Likely because of two interactions 

the first is the formation of the EHG which is EHG= WHG+ANE ( nobody is able to indicate in which proportions I always ask on AG but the only replay is a deafening silence) 

the second is the interaction that gave rise to the proper steppe signal ( steppe eneolithic) which is basically CHG ( roughly 50% ) and 50% EHG 

then steppe eneolithic mixed again with a western source ( EEF +WHG in different proportions from 15 to 50 per cent)

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## Ack

Interesting. Thanks for the answer.



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## Angela

I think the jury is out on EDAR as to whether it is just old, or indeed if that's what the anthropologists who examined Mal'ta were seeing.

However, there was EDAR in Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, and if I'm not mistaken it showed up in a few scattered early remains as well.

As was pointed out, most of it just got swamped by other genes.

Still, though, where it can still sometimes be seen even in modern populations is precisely in far northeastern Europe where there is more if not Mal'ta, ANE through Afontova Gora. 

See Jovialis' Post 433 in the Moots paper thread, page 17.

Of course there was a later migration from Siberia which could have contributed some of that ancestry.

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## halfalp

Why Lose? Nothing is Lost, it's just used to create new things. If, Mongoloid traits there was, they just evolved by mixing, they did not disappear. They are in details, sometimes hard to see. And who said that Mongoloid traits were Mongoloid at the beginning and not that Mongoloid traits are just the evolution of an older form?

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## Duarte

Well, IMHO, the Y DNA do not have any relashionship with the physical traits of an individual or, at least, almost none. In this case is much more important the autosomal analyses of SNPs contained in a particular gene linked to appearance and whether the allele pairs of analysed SNPs are homozygous or heterozygous for the specific trait. I think that the yDNA or the mtDNA will not determine what an individual looks like physically.

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## Joey37

I've often been suspected of being part east Asian, due to the epicanthal folds on the eyes (all Caucasian fetuses have them, but they go away in the last four weeks of gestation; I was born four weeks premature, so I still have mine) and the heavy brows (borealization?), but save the 0.5% Native American I inherited from my Acadian great-great-grandfather (which is from the Micmac people), I am otherwise European. Maybe I'm just reverting to my natural R1a self!

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## Ack

It's not just about determining appearance based on Y DNA. Autosomal analyzes show that ANE had / has autosomal and Siberian phenotypic characteristics.

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## Ack

> Well, IMHO, the Y DNA do not have any relashionship with the physical traits of an individual or, at least, almost none. In this case is much more important the autosomal analyses of SNPs contained in a particular gene linked to appearance and whether the allele pairs of analysed SNPs are homozygous or heterozygous for the specific trait. I think that the yDNA or the mtDNA will not determine what an individual looks like physically.


It's not just about determining appearance based on Y DNA. Autosomal analyzes show that ANE had / has autosomal and Siberian phenotypic characteristics.

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## Ack

> Why Lose? Nothing is Lost, it's just used to create new things. If, Mongoloid traits there was, they just evolved by mixing, they did not disappear. They are in details, sometimes hard to see. And who said that Mongoloid traits were Mongoloid at the beginning and not that Mongoloid traits are just the evolution of an older form?


Losing was just a way of saying that the phenotype changed in the process. I know that the genetics and some phenotypic details related to Siberia have not 'disappeared'.

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## Duarte

> It's not just about determining appearance based on Y DNA. Autosomal analyzes show that ANE had / has autosomal and Siberian phenotypic characteristics.


Reinterpreting what I said, even if the individuals R1a or R1b had some Mongol appearance at first, mixtures with peoples that were absorbed on the way to west and, also, when they arrived on west, diluted these traits in R’s individuals, that is, the genes that determine the so-called “Caucasian” traits prevailed over the years, over those that determine the Mongol characteristics. Otherwise the Scandinavians and Northeastern Europeans would look like Native Americans, who are the people of the world who have the most ANE. The Karitiana Indians of the Brazilian Amazon have 60% of ANE. I think you know about, but I bring the following excerpt from Wikipedia in English, just read only:

“The ANE lineage is defined by association with MA-1, or "Mal'ta boy", the remains of an individual who lived during the Last Glacial Maximum, 24,000 years ago, discovered in the 1920s. Populations genetically similar to MA-1 were an important genetic contributor to Native Americans, Central Asians, Europeans, South Asians, and East Asians, in order of significance. Lazaridis et al. (2016:10) note "a cline of ANE ancestry across the east-west extent of Eurasia." Flegontov et al. (2015) found that the global maximum of ANE ancestry occurs in modern-day Kets, Mansi, Native Americans, Nganasans and Yukaghirs. Additionally it has been reported in ancient Bronze-age-steppe Yamnaya and Afanasevo cultures. 42% of South American Native American ancestry originates from ANE peoples, while between 14% and 38% of North American Native American ancestry may originate from gene flow from the Mal'ta Buret people. This difference is caused by the penetration of posterior Siberian migrations into the Americas, with the lowest percentages of ANE ancestry found in Eskimos and Alaskan Natives, as these groups are the result of migrations into the Americas roughly 5,000 years ago. The other gene flow in Native Americans appears to have an Eastern Eurasian origin. Gene sequencing of another south-central Siberian people (Afontova Gora-2) dating to approximately 17,000 years ago, revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures to that of Mal'ta boy-1, suggesting that the region was continuously occupied by humans throughout the Last Glacial Maximum.

Genomic studies also indicate that ANE was introduced to Western Europe by way of the Yamna/Yamnaya culture, long after the Paleolithic. The ANE genetic component is visible in tests of the Yamnaya people, and seems to make up 50% of their ancestry indirectly. It is also reported in modern-day Europeans (7%–25% ANE admixture), but not of Europeans predating the Bronze Age.” 

Cheers :)


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## Regio X

R is too old, and all pops those times must have been very different from moderns. Still, we know certain traits common to East Asians and Native Americans predate the "colonization" of Americas. 
Interestingly, P*, ancestral to R and Q, was identified among the isolated pop of Andamanese, considered a "relic". (There is also a P1-BY49600 from Philipines.) 
P1 must have migrated from South to far North (Siberia) before 30k years ago. If we check the ages of Siberian ancient DNAs Yana1 and Yana2, both P-P337*, and clades' below in YFull, we'll see that R and Q must have formed in Yakutia or at least not too far from there. (ANE rich Malta Boy, R*, was also "Siberian".) The ancestors of Native Americans migrated to America between 20k and 15k years ago, so there was room for important changes in physical traits since 30k ybp. Not sure coverage allowed getting clues on certain traits of the Yanas and Malta, still, it seems possible, in theory, that Rs and Qs firstly "correlated" with peculiar traits we see in modern Native Americans and East Asians. If so, I wouldn't know when some of first Rs "lost" them. Mind you, R1b was already around Central Europe ~15k years ago, as proven by Villabruna. Then some R1bs probably migrated West way earlier, while others would have remained in Asia?

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## Regio X

> Well, IMHO, the Y DNA do not have any relashionship with the physical traits of an individual or, at least, almost none. In this case is much more important the autosomal analyses of SNPs contained in a particular gene linked to appearance and whether the allele pairs of analysed SNPs are homozygous or heterozygous for the specific trait. I think that the yDNA or the mtDNA will not determine what an individual looks like physically.


Yes.
Off-topic: Interesting to think on how autosomal may "converge" independently of the Y, even being something simple to explain. For example, you and the Andamanese share a patrilineal ancestor who lived abt. 41500 ybp, whereas mine and yours lived abt. 7000 years before. Still, we are far closer to each other in autosomal.

What to say about E, such common in Europe? It's separated from the other main "European" haplogroups by 68500 years! Also curious how the nomenclature may induce a notion of proximity even when it's not there, as if, say, E1 and E2 were closer to each other than for example R and Q are. :)

Funnily (not really!), we find D (TMRCA of 46500 ybp) from Africa (D0) to Japan, including among Andamanese. So completely different pops when it comes to autosomal.
https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421

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## Duarte

> Yes.
> Off-topic: Interesting to think on how autosomal may "converge" independently of the Y, even being something simple to explain. For example, you and the Andamanese share a patrilineal ancestor who lived abt. 41500 ybp, whereas mine and yours lived abt. 7000 years before. Still, we are far closer to each other in autosomal.
> 
> What to say about E, such common in Europe? It's separated from the other main "European" haplogroups by 68500 years! Also curious how the nomenclature may induce a notion of proximity even when it's not there, as, say, E1 and E2 were closer to each other than for example R and Q are. :)
> 
> Funnily (not really!), we find D (TMRCA of 46500 ybp) from Africa (D0) to Japan, including among Andamanese. So completely different pops when it comes to autosomal.
> https://www.genetics.org/content/212/4/1421


Hi Regio. It is true. So far and so close at the same time. I think this leads us to reflect on the fact that we are all human, descendants of an Adam and an Eve who lived in Africa over 200,000 years ago and that racism is a great stupidity. 
A great hug dear friend :)

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## Ack

[CITAÇÃO = Duarte; 590878] Reinterpretando o que eu disse, mesmo que os indivíduos R1a ou R1b tivessem alguma aparência mongol no início, misturas com povos que foram absorvidos no caminho para o oeste e, também, quando chegaram ao oeste, diluíram essas características nos indivíduos de R, isto é, os genes que determinam os chamados traços "caucasianos" prevaleceram ao longo dos anos, sobre aqueles que determinam as características mongóis. Caso contrário, os escandinavos e os europeus do nordeste se pareceriam com os nativos americanos, que são as pessoas do mundo que têm mais ANE. Os índios Karitiana da Amazônia brasileira possuem 60% da ANE. Acho que você conhece, mas trago o trecho a seguir da Wikipedia em inglês, apenas para leitura:

“A linhagem da ANE é definida pela associação com o MA-1, ou" garoto Mal'ta ", os restos mortais de um indivíduo que viveu durante o Último Máximo Glacial, há 24.000 anos, descoberto na década de 1920. As populações geneticamente semelhantes ao MA-1 foram um importante contribuinte genético para os nativos americanos, asiáticos centrais, europeus, sul-asiáticos e asiáticos orientais, em ordem de importância. Lazaridis et al. (2016: 10) observam "um cline de ascendência da ANE em toda a extensão leste-oeste da Eurásia". Flegontov et al. (2015) descobriram que o máximo global de ancestralidade da ANE ocorre nos dias atuais Kets, Mansi, nativos americanos, nganasans e yukaghirs. Além disso, foi relatado nas culturas Yamnaya e Afanasevo da antiga estepe da idade do bronze. 42% da ascendência nativa americana da América do Sul é originária dos povos da ANE, enquanto que entre 14% e 38% da ascendência norte-americana nativa americana pode se originar do fluxo gênico do povo Mal'ta Buret. Essa diferença é causada pela penetração das migrações posteriores da Sibéria nas Américas, com as menores porcentagens de ancestralidade da ANE encontradas nos esquimós e nos nativos do Alasca, pois esses grupos são o resultado de migrações para as Américas há cerca de 5.000 anos. O outro fluxo genético nos nativos americanos parece ter uma origem da Eurásia Oriental. O sequenciamento genético de outro povo da Sibéria, no centro-sul (Afontova Gora-2), datado de aproximadamente 17.000 anos atrás, revelou assinaturas genéticas autossômicas semelhantes às de Mal'ta boy-1, sugerindo que a região era continuamente ocupada por seres humanos ao longo do Último Glacial Máximo. Essa diferença é causada pela penetração das migrações posteriores da Sibéria nas Américas, com as menores porcentagens de ancestralidade da ANE encontradas nos esquimós e nos nativos do Alasca, pois esses grupos são o resultado de migrações para as Américas há cerca de 5.000 anos. O outro fluxo genético nos nativos americanos parece ter uma origem da Eurásia Oriental. O sequenciamento genético de outro povo da Sibéria, no centro-sul (Afontova Gora-2), datado de aproximadamente 17.000 anos atrás, revelou assinaturas genéticas autossômicas semelhantes às de Mal'ta boy-1, sugerindo que a região era continuamente ocupada por seres humanos ao longo do Último Glacial Máximo. Essa diferença é causada pela penetração das migrações posteriores da Sibéria nas Américas, com as menores porcentagens de ancestralidade da ANE encontradas nos esquimós e nos nativos do Alasca, pois esses grupos são o resultado de migrações para as Américas há cerca de 5.000 anos. O outro fluxo genético nos nativos americanos parece ter uma origem da Eurásia Oriental. O sequenciamento genético de outro povo da Sibéria, no centro-sul (Afontova Gora-2), datado de aproximadamente 17.000 anos atrás, revelou assinaturas genéticas autossômicas semelhantes às de Mal'ta boy-1, sugerindo que a região era continuamente ocupada por seres humanos ao longo do Último Glacial Máximo. como esses grupos são o resultado de migrações para as Américas há cerca de 5.000 anos. O outro fluxo genético nos nativos americanos parece ter uma origem da Eurásia Oriental. O sequenciamento genético de outro povo da Sibéria, no centro-sul (Afontova Gora-2), datado de aproximadamente 17.000 anos atrás, revelou assinaturas genéticas autossômicas semelhantes às de Mal'ta boy-1, sugerindo que a região era continuamente ocupada por seres humanos ao longo do Último Glacial Máximo. como esses grupos são o resultado de migrações para as Américas há cerca de 5.000 anos. O outro fluxo genético nos nativos americanos parece ter uma origem da Eurásia Oriental. O sequenciamento genético de outro povo da Sibéria, no centro-sul (Afontova Gora-2), datado de aproximadamente 17.000 anos atrás, revelou assinaturas genéticas autossômicas semelhantes às de Mal'ta boy-1, sugerindo que a região era continuamente ocupada por seres humanos ao longo do Último Glacial Máximo.

Estudos genômicos também indicam que a ANE foi introduzida na Europa Ocidental por meio da cultura Yamna / Yamnaya, muito depois do Paleolítico. O componente genético da ANE é visível nos testes do povo Yamnaya e parece representar indiretamente 50% de seus ancestrais. Também é relatado nos europeus modernos (mistura ANE de 7% a 25%), mas não nos europeus anteriores à Idade do Bronze. ” 

Felicidades :) 


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I agree that Caucasian appearance prevailed in R * YDNA populations. I didn't say that people of Indo-European descent have a Mongoloid appearance these days. I was just trying to understand from the mix with which peoples the hunters and gatherers of the east were becoming Caucasian over time. I related the mogoloid appearance to the appearance of y dna R pq because it was in fact related to siberia in its emergence as haplogroup

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## Aaron1981

It seems like mesolithic hunter gatherers west of the Urals, but east of the carpathian mountains had mutations for light skin and hair. Even some of the WHG rich Baltic hunter gatherers acquired these traits, but the ones in the far west such as Cheddar Man lacked them. In addition, the CHG reference samples from Georgia had one of the light skin mutations as well. As we know one of the two common mutations for light skin was fairly common in the EEF as well. The common element in all of this is a subset of WHG population, or perhaps one of the EHG rich populations had the derived mutation, and there is some relationship between WHG-EHG that dates back to the LGM. In addition, I believe the Levantine Neolithic populations lacked these mutations, but it pops up in the Chalcolithic ones I believe who brought Anatolian (EEF) southwards.

In any case, I suspect the old Darwinian natural selection still remains true. While it may have popped up in southern populations, I still think northern climates with low Vitamin D + transition to farming allowed it to propagate.

In terms of facial structure, modern Europeans are about 40% Middle Eastern outside the Baltic and Finnic regions. Longer heads and Roman noses are far more common in the core European population, whether it's British, Italian, or even Polish. However, rarely do I ever see a Roman nose in a northern Russian or Finn, leading me to believe these were not physical characteristics of those populations rich in WHG + especially EHG. (pseudo science I know, but my observation) Longer heads are also more typical of populations with higher Mediterranean ancestry, especially the women, whom we know were dominant in propagating in modern Europe. (H1 rich)

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