# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  The Sea Peoples Were Italic Speakers From Sicily, Sardinia and Mainland Italy?

## Angela

Thanks to Dienekes for alerting us to this new paper:
http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/upl...172-DeLigt.pdf

"An Eteocretan Inscription from Praisos and the Homeland of the Sea Peoples" by Luuk de Ligt.

"The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century."

Goodness, Italic speakers were one of the large contributing causes for the collapse of the great Bronze Age palatial civilizations? I've just gone on record in another thread about how I'm always on the side of the civilized core and here the Italic speakers were the "Barbarians at the Gate". :Startled:  Ah well, I guess everyone is descended from people of the civilized core and the Barbarians as well. :Smile: 

I'm not competent to judge his linguistic argument. Perhaps others can chime in...

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## Angela

I have moved the following interesting post from a U-152 thread to this specific thread on the paper.



> Moesan:I cannot know where first Y -R1b-U152 appeared but the demographic developpment could have begun lately between Germany-France-Switzerland-Italy Alps and South Hungary-North Croatia (so in a possible Celtic-Italic area, exposed in the past "future" to Qw- >> P- switch) - 
> the U152 of Archaic Creta was a question for me, because I didn't link its presence to later Veneto (Venitian state in late Middle Age) but a recent extract found in Dienekes Blog could give us the clue

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## Yetos

@ Αγκελα

well i try to read it,

when i said about Hatti, some people above the academic were annoyed,
the problem is Arzawa or as I mentioned Arzawa/Assuwa league, if Arzawa were sea people, that means Troyans were not speaking Luwang or any IE language, but Etruscan.


but it can be also the oposite, we find part of ancient eteocretan language, using the remnants of eteocretan/possibly para-Thyrrenian in italic languages (umbrian)



PS thank you for the link,
I found more Pelasgian words that survived in Greek language!!!!!!
like 'ais' = sacred so word Αισθημα = sentiments means sacred subject, and not black subject like the Greek Ais from IE meaning black, (Aισωνος= black river (swhartz))

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## Robert6

Eteo-Cretan were OscanUmbrian
this is very interesting.

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## Robert6

Philistine as an Indo-European language 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine_language

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## Yetos

cherethims!!!! sea coast!!!
*Ezekiel 25:16

genesis 37 36


translation of 70 cretans in Ezekiel guards in genesis*

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## Aberdeen

> cherethims!!!! sea coast!!!
> *Ezekiel 25:16
> 
> genesis 37 36
> 
> 
> translation of 70 cretans in Ezekiel guards in genesis*


I'm not sure I completely understand the point you're making. Could you expand on your comments?

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## DMc

I think Yetos' point is that the Philistines (traditionally linked to the Sea Peoples) are also linked, in the Old Testament, to the Cherethim/Cherethites, which could be a Hebraic gloss for "Cretans." It's hard to say if that's right-- there are other possible translations-- but it is worth noting that the translators of the Septuagint rendered "Cherethites" as "Cretans." I think Yetos' point is an interesting one.

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## Yetos

> I'm not sure I completely understand the point you're making. Could you expand on your comments?


Aberdeen, DMc cover me well
ΑΖΩΤΟΣ the ancient name of Gaza, 
as also the God Draco, is also connected with the Thyrrenian presence in Athens, the pre Hellenic rulling class
Dracon laws, κυλωνειον αγος, Σολων etc
as also the word Tyrrant is from Thyrrenian origin, and we find it as SeReN in Philistine (Seren)

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## Aberdeen

> Aberdeen, DMc cover me well
> ΑΖΩΤΟΣ the ancient name of Gaza, 
> as also the God Draco, is also connected with the Thyrrenian presence in Athens, the pre Hellenic rulling class
> Dracon laws, κυλωνειον αγος, Σολων etc
> as also the word Tyrrant is from Thyrrenian origin, and we find it as SeReN in Philistine (Seren)


I'm still not following you. I don't know what ideas these comments are intended to convey. The experts do seem to believe there may have been some IE influence on the Philistine language but most of the available evidence supports the idea that it was mostly a Middle Eastern language. I'd have to go to the university library to find you actual quotes, and I'm not going to do that because it's very cold and wintery here right now. But you can find some discussion of the controversy on line, including on Wikipedia.

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## Yetos

> I'm still not following you. I don't know what ideas these comments are intended to convey. The experts do seem to believe there may have been some IE influence on the Philistine language but most of the available evidence supports the idea that it was mostly a Middle Eastern language. I'd have to go to the university library to find you actual quotes, and I'm not going to do that because it's very cold and wintery here right now. But you can find some discussion of the controversy on line, including on Wikipedia.


the link Angela gave gives well (intro) the 3 possible theories of what we Greeks call Pelasgians, and rest world sea people,
a good question is Arzawa/Assuwa language IE or not,
for IE elements you can also search Hatti language, although is unknown language

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## Aberdeen

> the link Angela gave gives well (intro) the 3 possible theories of what we Greeks call Pelasgians, and rest world sea people,
> a good question is Arzawa/Assuwa language IE or not,
> for IE elements you can also search Hatti language, although is unknown language


Yes, there are some interesting theories about who the Sea People were, but the Phoenicians seem to have been primarily Canaanite, according to most scholars. If the Sea People did leave their mark on the territory of the Phoenicians, that might explain any IE element that might have been present, but you certainly can't say "Phoenicians=Sea People, because they seem to have been Semetic, according to the archeological evidence. And the Hittites were IE but the Hatti were not.

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## Yetos

> Yes, there are some interesting theories about who the Sea People were, but the Phoenicians seem to have been primarily Canaanite, according to most scholars. If the Sea People did leave their mark on the territory of the Phoenicians, that might explain any IE element that might have been present, but you certainly can't say "Phoenicians=Sea People, because they seem to have been Semetic, according to the archeological evidence. And the Hittites were IE but the Hatti were not.


The pentapolis does seem to be Phoenician,
besides even among Phoenician we recogn 2 major sub-cultures, Tyros is not clear same culture as Sidon and byblos


generally I am conviced that Arzawa were not IE, neither Hatti, neither Phoenician, but another people, whose start homeland was near by Phoenician (Cilicia) but went West, and after hettit entrance and Destruction of Troy, moved West to Italy,
Although the link Angela provide says the oposite, which is among 'survived' theories, one of the 3,
yet the link adds another linguistic connection among Eteocretans (minoans) with Italic people

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## Fire Haired14

> Thanks to Dienekes for alerting us to this new paper:
> http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/upl...172-DeLigt.pdf
> 
> "An Eteocretan Inscription from Praisos and the Homeland of the Sea Peoples" by Luuk de Ligt.
> 
> "The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century."
> 
> Goodness, Italic speakers were one of the large contributing causes for the collapse of the great Bronze Age palatial civilizations? I've just gone on record in another thread about how I'm always on the side of the civilized core and here the Italic speakers were the "Barbarians at the Gate". Ah well, I guess everyone is descended from people of the civilized core and the Barbarians as well.
> 
> I'm not competent to judge his linguistic argument. Perhaps others can chime in...


The ancient world was ruled by Italy(Rome) for hundreds of years and then you have the Roman Catholic church, which isn't as powerful as it used to be but still. That's where you have your civilization glory.

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## Sennevini

I know the writer; he is not a linguist; though he is a historian knowing
a lot about demography in the Roman empire.

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## Aberdeen

> The pentapolis does seem to be Phoenician,
> besides even among Phoenician we recogn 2 major sub-cultures, Tyros is not clear same culture as Sidon and byblos
> 
> 
> generally I am conviced that Arzawa were not IE, neither Hatti, neither Phoenician, but another people, whose start homeland was near by Phoenician (Cilicia) but went West, and after hettit entrance and Destruction of Troy, moved West to Italy,
> Although the link Angela provide says the oposite, which is among 'survived' theories, one of the 3,
> yet the link adds another linguistic connection among Eteocretans (minoans) with Italic people


If you're talking about the Philistine pentapolis, the Philistines were neighbours of the Phoenicians and may have been related to them, but they weren't the same people. Scholars seem to believe that the Philistines were a mixture of Greek and Canaanite, whereas the Phoenicians seem to have been at least primarily local Semetic types, rather than having the large Greek admixture that their Philistine neighbours seem to have had.

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## Angela

> The ancient world was ruled by Italy(Rome) for hundreds of years and then you have the Roman Catholic church, which isn't as powerful as it used to be but still. That's where you have your civilization glory.


You forgot the Renaissance...and a few other things, but I won't quibble. :Smile:  Imperfect civilizations and institutions all, as is true of anything created by man. 

I've spent a lot of years reading and thinking about these kinds of things, and, as I've said before, I think it's a recurring pattern: we claw ourselves up and form some semblance of a civilization, imperfect and still brutal in some ways as it may be, and then it weakens from environmental and/or intrinsic causes and the less civilized groups on the periphery bring it all crashing down so we can start the process all over again with often now admixed people. There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it, which is a pity. As LeBrok pointed out once, think of how much further ahead our knowledge would be if we hadn't had to stop and back pedal all these times.

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## Sile

i saw a TV program 3 days ago done by Israeli archelogists on philistines settlements and all pots, jewelry, ruling seals, cranium skeletons all led to the same conclusion, the philistines have the same as what the eastern minoan populace had ....................did these minoans get displaced by the Doric "sea peoples"

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## MOESAN

I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?

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## Sile

> I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
> YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?


The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.

*However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. 

http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One_...d_Ottoman_Rule
*

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## Yetos

> I'm not competant enough to give an opinion about the linguistic aspect (first importance in the link) even if I find it holds few certain facts, but if this analysis is correct for language, and because it seems speaking about the eastern part of the Island of Creta, it is very interesting because it is only in this part Y-R1b (and its SNP U-152) has some weight in percentage...
> YETOS: I don't understand well your links between I-Ean, Troia, Arzawa and Sea People ?(in this last country people were supposed speaking louwitian = I-Ean - but what evident link with Troia? maybe could you give me some details you have at ahnd?


Moesan
with All respect the subject has to do with Arzawa and Hettits,
if Arzawa were IE, that means IE is old, far old than Hettit, 
now do you realize if Arzawa spoke IE, how theories change?
Troy was in Arzawa/Assuwa land.
ARZAWA/ASSUWA ARE OLDER THAN HATTI AND HETTIT,
Arzawa can be Arcadia/Arkadia in a z-c or z-k change, we might speak about the same population of eteo-Cypriots and Eteo-cretans etc etc

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## Angela

I once thought that Venetian rule of Crete for almost 500 years and Venetian and Genoese presence in many places in Greece, the greater Aegean, and even the Levant during the Medieval period might have provided one source for the "Italian" percentages that used to (I don't know if they still do) show up in some Greeks at 23andme. That may be less true for Genoa's settlements than for those of Venice, as Genoa's footprint was more like that of the European powers in China than like that of the English in Ireland, for example.

Speaking of that, I came across an entire English language book devoted to the period of Venetian rule in Crete. I am going to see if I can get it from my library. I'll also look out for some Italian language treatments. Anyway, the point is that in the online introduction from the book, the author makes some very interesting points about the nature of Venetian rule, and for those with an interest in Ireland there's also some nice material about English control of Ireland and the development of the rule of the Anglo-Irish.
See here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Nz...page&q&f=false

The Kingdom of Candia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

Somewhere, to the best of my recollection, I have read that the Venetians seem to have been around 10,000 in number, an aristocracy and military class, but I can't find the paper right now. I will try to track it down. The book cited above does indicate what I had read before that for quite some time inter-marriage was forbidden. However, the "Italian" or "Latin" and the "Greek" aristocracies seem to have merged after a while, but nothing is mentioned about mass migration and intermarriage with the other classes. I'll have to wait until I read the book cited above for the details. 

I don't know where this idea came from that the Venetians all settled in the Lasithi Plateau, or had palaces there or whatever, where most of the U-152 was found. Does anyone have a source for that? The Venetians didn't want anything to do with it. 

"The fertile soil of the plateau, due to alluvial run-off from melting snow, has attracted inhabitants since Neolithic times (6000 BC).[3] Minoans and Dorians followed and the plateau has been continuously inhabited since then, except a period that started in 1293 and lasted for over two centuries during the Venetian occupation of Crete. During that time and due to frequent rebellions and strong resistance, villages were demolished, cultivation prohibited, and natives were forced to leave and forbidden to return under a penalty of death. A Venetian manuscript of the thirteenth century describes the troublesome plateau of Lasithi as _spina nel cuore (di Venezia)_ - a thorn in the heart of Venice. Later, in the early 15th century, Venetian rulers allowed refugees from the Greek mainland (eastern Peloponnese) to settle in the plain and cultivate the land again. To ensure good crops, Venetians designed a large system of drainage ditches (linies, Greek: λίνιες) that were constructed between 1514 - 1560 and are still in use. The ditches transfer the water to Honos (Greek: Χώνος), a sinkhole in the west edge of the plateau, that feeds the river Aposelemis.

During the Greek War of Independence in January 1823, Hassan Pasha led an army of Ottoman and Egyptian forces sent by Muhammad Ali that seized the plateau killing most residents who had not fled to the mountains. In May 1867 during the great Cretan revolt, Ottoman and Egyptian forces under the command of Pashas Omar and Ismail Selim marched towards the Lasithi plateau. Their aim was to strike a decisive blow on the revolutionaries who used it as their hideout. After fierce fighting, the outnumbered rebels were defeated and forced to retreat to the slopes of Dikti. Between 21 and 29 of May, many village dwellers were slaughtered or taken slaves, their homes were set ablaze after being looted and livestock and crops were destroyed.[4] The monastery of Kroustalenia that was the seat of the revolutionary committee was also demolished.
During the Axis occupation of Greece in 1941–1944, the peaks surrounding the plateau were used as hideouts by local resistance fighters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasithi_Plateau

The only other thing I could find is that there was for centuries a Venetian military installation not too far from Lasithi. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinalonga

Given that the area was depopulated of most of its inhabitants twice, I don't know what we can deduce other than the fact that there was a founder effect of some kind. I'm not leaning in one direction more than another. This looks like another situation where the answer is going to have to wait for more detailed subclade resolution and aDna. Bottom line, I don't think an Italic speaking Sea Peoples source can be ruled out, which would have implications for other areas in Greece, Anatolia, and the Near East.

SPECULATION ALERT: Dare I hint that perhaps it might account, via the "Philistines" in the Levant, for that "Italian", or perhaps more precisely some of that "European" component in Jews?


If I have time, I want to take a look at the yDna pattern in Crete. If the Venetians had a significant impact on Cretan genetics, then shouldn't we see some of the U-106 and I1 that the Venetians received by way of the Lombard invasions? If anyone has some sources, that would be great.

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## oriental

There was a war going on in the Mediterranean Sea area between the Hittites and west Anatolians. If the legend of Anneus is true that Etruscans descended from these western Anatolians after Troy then the western Anatolians would be "Italic speakers". They were the primary people of the Sea Peoples with refugees from Europe and pirates from the Balkans destroying the capitals of the Mitannis and Hittites.

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## Sile

> I once thought that Venetian rule of Crete for almost 500 years and Venetian and Genoese presence in many places in Greece, the greater Aegean, and even the Levant during the Medieval period might have provided one source for the "Italian" percentages that used to (I don't know if they still do) show up in some Greeks at 23andme. That may be less true for Genoa's settlements than for those of Venice, as Genoa's footprint was more like that of the European powers in China than like that of the English in Ireland, for example.
> 
> Speaking of that, I came across an entire English language book devoted to the period of Venetian rule in Crete. I am going to see if I can get it from my library. I'll also look out for some Italian language treatments. Anyway, the point is that in the online introduction from the book, the author makes some very interesting points about the nature of Venetian rule, and for those with an interest in Ireland there's also some nice material about English control of Ireland and the development of the rule of the Anglo-Irish.
> See here:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=Nz...page&q&f=false
> 
> The Kingdom of Candia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia
> 
> ...


The dna completed by nat.gen on venetians from 2005 to 2010 shows



of the 54% of R1b ...11% is U106


see cioa paper ..............if I recall the bulk L2
*This Early Bronze Age phenomenon may explain why L2 as a percentage of U152 is highest in north-east Italy and makes up a larger amount of U152 outside of Italy.*

this found similar
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053355/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3572090/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24312576

the bulk of these people would be u106
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17712356
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407130/

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## oriental

Youtube does have a few videos on the Sea Peoples.

Secrets of the Aegean apocalyse. It suggests "Arab spring" uprising and peace time creates unemployed soldiers who then revolted. It is a very complex situation. As new research provide new clues we could understand things better maybe.

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## oriental

I deleted the video.

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## Pax Augusta

> The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.
> 
> *However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. 
> 
> http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One_...d_Ottoman_Rule
> *


Good point.

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## oriental

I deleted the video after going through it. Sorry, I posted before seeing it.

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## Angela

[QUOTE=oriental;451058]

I can't see half the screen,so I can't easily access the information, but I'm going to make a wild guess and say this wasn't created by an academic. :Grin: 

Shouldn't it be obvious by now that any one of any level of education and training, and who knows what obscure motivations can make a youtube video, or post nonsense on anthroboards, for that matter?

This is absurd.

When someone has a genome from one of the Sea Peoples then we'll chat. :Smile:

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## Yetos

Understanding Crete and eteo-Cretans
*
Crete has 6 major teritories,*

2 in the Chania (North part, South Part)
1 Rethymno 
1 The Mountains
1 Herakleion (Lasithi)
1 soutth (of Herakleion and mountains, Ierapetra Moires Martsalo tymbaki)
1 is total East part ( Setia )

from antique we know that true Cretans were Minoans or ekatopolis (eteo-Cretans)
later *Dorians* invade the island But Dorians manage to occupy and setlle only West part till the mountains
Roman empire was in charge of island, but not serious colonisation or inhabitation we see, CRETE HAS NO AROMANI population,
Arabs manage to step on island and try to take control of herakleion (Handakas that time, The Venician/Italian Candia is after name Handak, the defensive pit outside castles filled with water)
That time we have a small devastation of the 12 rulling Byzantine families, most of them from Smyrne, and Thrace)
later the Crusades gave Crete to Bonifat de Monferrat which sold it,
The venician occupation in Crete is after all these,
*But lets see some remarkable points,*
East Crete Setia (ΣΗΤΕΙΑ) *is heavily J2a* 
East Crete was never serious colonized or occupied or inhabited by someone, neither by Ancients Hellenes the IE part of Greeks (Eteo-cretans should have serious J2a percentage)
same about South parts
Mountain Crete show *serious deposits of I Hg* and R1xyz
which probably can be from Mycenean or Dorian entrance.
West crete shows more Normal distribution of Hgs
now about Crusaders and Venician occupation
if someone travels to these cities, especially Chania which is also called small or 2nd Venice will see the venetian influence, which is obvious
we can find also venetian influence in toponymes around some cities, 
*but that is limited around some wall defended ports or villages.

*another emarkablepooint are the churches, and minorities/nationalities streets,
for example in chania we can see the Catholic cathedral, the Orthodox, and the Jew synagogue, and behind them the 'followers'
by the laws of Venice which even in her islands had economic class and religious criteria were to habbit, it was not posibble, almost forbided to contact each other, even to marry,
in Venice there is a bridge were people suicide due to such cases, and st Giorgio was build due a much later law of annex.
the impossible was to change religion, so the estimated population of crusaders and Venice, and generally 'West Europe' could be counted as religious followers with the statistical mistake of poverty and religion change,
*EVEN IN VENICIAN OCCUPATION CRETE WAS RULED BY THE 12 BYZANTINE FAMILIES* (Καλλεργη Χορτατζη etc) *PAX ALEXI KALLERGI
*and the main Venitian familes were *Gradonico* and *Venier* (for Gradonico there is an argue of origin, since some consider them as Greek who turned Catholic, to take Venitian citizenship although that is under discuss)MOST Venician left till *1720* and the Turkish effort to occupy the islandin their areas after that time Jews show more population that CatholicsThe Turkish effort, the Egyptian settlers, and the islamization*,
*that is a violent era
Cretans exile the Cretans who turn to Muslim, and slain all turks and egyptians (Καλημερηδες)
the Muslim Cretans today live in Syria and Turkey 
if you want I can show you video's and info's of what happened that time,

now I can not say about Genetic origin of cretan HGs
but the distribution of some is clear of the genetic influence of each colonists from Neolithic era,
some R1b might be from Venitian or Roman occupation, *but limited in certain areas*, as PAX KALLERGI allowed, since they mostly left from 1650 to 1720
as also the East deposits and the mountain Deposits of certain HGs show the genetical history of the island.

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## Sile

> *But lets see some remarkable points,*
> East Crete Setia (ΣΗΤΕΙΑ) *is heavily J2a* 
> East Crete was never serious colonized or occupied or inhabited by someone, neither by Ancients Hellenes the IE part of Greeks (Eteo-cretans should have serious J2a percentage)
> same about South parts


Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.



> another emarkablepooint are the churches, and minorities/nationalities streets,
> for example in chania we can see the Catholic cathedral, the Orthodox, and the Jew synagogue, and behind them the 'followers'
> by the laws of Venice which even in her islands had economic class and religious criteria were to habbit, it was not posibble, almost forbided to contact each other, even to marry,
> in Venice there is a bridge were people suicide due to such cases, and st Giorgio was build due a much later law of annex.
> the impossible was to change religion, so the estimated population of crusaders and Venice, and generally 'West Europe' could be counted as religious followers with the statistical mistake of poverty and religion change,


This is because , if you did change religion , where you classified as a non-believer ( pagan ) and expelled from venetian lands plus venice was secular government, religion played no part in government,
th evenetian government selected the religious representives for each religion, they executed religious leaders with the same rules and the common man and that is also why the greeks, armenian, slavs, germans all had there own religious churches in venice.





> *EVEN IN VENICIAN OCCUPATION CRETE WAS RULED BY THE 12 BYZANTINE FAMILIES* (Καλλεργη Χορτατζη etc) *PAX ALEXI KALLERGI
> *and the main Venitian familes were *Gradonico* and *Venier* (for Gradonico there is an argue of origin, since some consider them as Greek who turned Catholic, to take Venitian citizenship although that is under discuss)MOST Venician left till *1720* and the Turkish effort to occupy the islandin their areas after that time Jews show more population that CatholicsThe Turkish effort, the Egyptian settlers, and the islamization*,
> *


gradenigo is the name ...............igo is 100% pure venetian surname ending ....mocenigo, barbarigo etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Gradenigo




> now I can not say about Genetic origin of cretan HGs
> but the distribution of some is clear of the genetic influence of each colonists from Neolithic era,
> some R1b might be from Venitian or Roman occupation, *but limited in certain areas*, as PAX KALLERGI allowed, since they mostly left from 1650 to 1720
> as also the East deposits and the mountain Deposits of certain HGs show the genetical history of the island.


If they find the R1b-U152 has L2 , then it most likely is the venetian that left their mark in crete ......the other venetian haplogroups are too hard to examine in crete

----------


## Yetos

> Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.


The difference is that Minoans were not Phillistines neither the opposite,
we know the true Minoan cities in Egypt and Syrria, 
Phillistines belong to another civilization, which was close to Minoans, but also to 'old' Atheneans which ancient writers say spoke thyrrenian,
All these civilizations are connected

by a discuss i head whit my cretan friends, seems like there were exclusive sea trade roots in ancient world, upon which minoans played the roll of 'traffic police' and phoenicians of 'heavy cargo truckers', 
the destruction of minoan navy by volacnoes and tsunami, left world with out trading goods, and opened the road to piracy,
many connect *Thyrrenian* with island of *Thera* (Θηρα, Santa Eirina) 
Ι even heard about *Fallisti* in Italy that are connected with *Phillistines*,
It is difficult to say even today,
but for sure Sea people took advantage of Minoan navy collapse, loss of sea roads merchantise, and by descriptions are connected with Sardinians Sicilians Etruscans, Aegeans, Phillistines, Lycaonians/Carians, Aegeans, West minor Asians, Tyros-Phoenicians
generally that stops with the Dorian descend 911 BC and Greek colonisation (restore of sea merchant roads) plus the build of Hatria and the raise of Etruscan and dissapears with raise of Rome in the West,
so the connectivity with Helladic and Italic space is obvious, while in minor Asia probably has to do with Brygian devastation, either in an empty space, either by push/occupation.
Empty space cause maybe indeed they left to a final way West to Italy, to build a new homeland, as Brutos of Lemnean stele
Push/occupation cause we know Hettit Mycenean Brygian expansions,
It seems that either Hatti, either Arzawa were 'tough guys', and their collapse caused sea paoples, a chain reaction from Hettit entrance to Minor Asia and Aegean volcanoes and earthquakes





> Same as the israeli finds about philistines being originally east creatan people...archeology, pots, jewellery and genetics.
> 
> If they find the R1b-U152 has L2 , then it most likely is the venetian that left their mark in crete ......the other venetian haplogroups are too hard to examine in crete


and if such HG exist in Palestine/Levant or even south shores of black sea (Homers Enetoi)  :Thinking: 
 :Hell Boy: 

 :Innocent:   :Innocent:

----------


## Maciamo

> The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.
> 
> *However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. 
> 
> http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One_...d_Ottoman_Rule
> *


It would be useful to get the TMRCA for the R1b-U152 samples from Crete. It should be easy to determine whether they are medieval or Late Bronze Age, as they are 2000 years apart. We also can't rule out that the Italic 'Sea People' brought indigenous (Mesolithic + Neolithic) folks from the southern Italian peninsula with them, namely G2a, J1(xP58), T1a and E-M78 lineages. The problem is that all these lineages would already have been present in the Eastern Mediterranean, so it will be difficult to tell them apart without knowing all the very deep subclades with the TMRCA and try to find which clades could have come from Italy c. 1200 BCE. It may takes years before we get enough full Y-DNA data for both Italy and Greece. Now it's even hard to get data about common subclades in Greece (e.g. R1b-L23, R1b-Z2123, I2a subclades, I1 subclades).

----------


## Sile

> It would be useful to get the TMRCA for the R1b-U152 samples from Crete. It should be easy to determine whether they are medieval or Late Bronze Age, as they are 2000 years apart. We also can't rule out that the Italic 'Sea People' brought indigenous (Mesolithic + Neolithic) folks from the southern Italian peninsula with them, namely G2a, J1(xP58), T1a and E-M78 lineages. The problem is that all these lineages would already have been present in the Eastern Mediterranean, so it will be difficult to tell them apart without knowing all the very deep subclades with the TMRCA and try to find which clades could have come from Italy c. 1200 BCE. It may takes years before we get enough full Y-DNA data for both Italy and Greece. Now it's even hard to get data about common subclades in Greece (e.g. R1b-L23, R1b-Z2123, I2a subclades, I1 subclades).


the mtdna for crete

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2871.html

I will see what I can do for the Y



one of the Ydna below......I cannot open it

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17264870


edit

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201769a.html

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## Yetos

I copy the object

The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau--a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island.* The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1*, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the *close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans*, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, *Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans


*That is why I believe that J2a is old enough in Aegean, older than sea people, reaching early copper age, and a major naval travel HG
and Dorians were R1a from the deposits of North Greece an expand that pass through Doris Lokris to S Italy,
about R1b I accept that a % came with Venician occupation, but in limited areas and numbers, around 'fortetsa' (small castle)
Yet we must exclude that this R1b of Venice wasn't before in East mediteranean, or Black sea and travel West,
and also define if came with sea peoples or with venicians, cause such cases can act controversary.
That does not exclude the Venician genetical influence in Crete 

an Alternative is the I Hg in mountain crete


correct meif I am wrong

----------


## Sile

> I copy the object
> 
> The island of Crete, credited by some historical scholars as a central crucible of western civilization, has been under continuous archeological investigation since the second half of the nineteenth century. In the present work, the geographic stratification of the contemporary Cretan Y-chromosome gene pool was assessed by high-resolution haplotyping to investigate the potential imprints of past colonization episodes and the population substructure. In addition to analyzing the possible geographic origins of Y-chromosome lineages in relatively accessible areas of the island, this study includes samples from the isolated interior of the Lasithi Plateau--a mountain plain located in eastern Crete. The potential significance of the results from the latter region is underscored by the possibility that this region was used as a Minoan refugium. Comparisons of Y-haplogroup frequencies among three Cretan populations as well as with published data from additional Mediterranean locations revealed significant differences in the frequency distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups within the island.* The most outstanding differences were observed in haplogroups J2 and R1*, with the predominance of haplogroup R lineages in the Lasithi Plateau and of haplogroup J lineages in the more accessible regions of the island. Y-STR-based analyses demonstrated the *close affinity that R1a1 chromosomes from the Lasithi Plateau shared with those from the Balkans*, but not with those from lowland eastern Crete. In contrast, *Cretan R1b microsatellite-defined haplotypes displayed more resemblance to those from Northeast Italy than to those from Turkey and the Balkans
> 
> 
> *That is why I believe that J2a is old enough in Aegean, older than sea people, reaching early copper age, and a major naval travel HG
> and Dorians were R1a from the deposits of North Greece an expand that pass through Doris Lokris to S Italy,
> about R1b I accept that a % came with Venician occupation, but in limited areas and numbers, around 'fortetsa' (small castle)
> Yet we must exclude that this R1b of Venice wasn't before in East mediteranean, or Black sea and travel West,
> ...


In regards to my marker of T1a-M70 group, I see the east cretan has between 7 to 9 % , I also know that the Egyptian T1a is younger than the levant T1a, the Levant is younger than the Syrian T1a and the Syrian is younger than the Kurdish/armenian T1a................how old can this T1a in crete be?

----------


## Yetos

> In regards to my marker of T1a-M70 group, I see the east cretan has between 7 to 9 % , I also know that the Egyptian T1a is younger than the levant T1a, the Levant is younger than the Syrian T1a and the Syrian is younger than the Kurdish/armenian T1a................how old can this T1a in crete be?





from your knowledge? do we find small deposits of that Venitian R1b elsewhere? outside Venice's occupations land?


and what time do you believe that my G2a3* came to N Greece?
was it before or after your T1a? and how many centuries different?

----------


## Sile

> from your knowledge? do we find small deposits of that Venitian R1b elsewhere? outside Venice's occupations land?
> 
> 
> and what time do you believe that my G2a3* came to N Greece?
> was it before or after your T1a? and how many centuries different?


your G2a3* is not enough info...but I have this from Greece 

In adjacent *Greece*, SNP testing determined that half of eight G samples were G2a3a. The G samples represented 5% of 171 Greek samples. In contrast in nearby Crete, G2a3a was only 20% of the 21 G samples, with G samples representing 11% of 193 island samples.[3] Though treated separately in this study, Crete is part of Greece but with a different settlement history. Farther out in the Mediterranean, in a smaller sample size from *Cyprus* 4 of 7 G samples have the distinctive 21 value seen overwhelmingly in G2a3a persons.[4]

so you need more info

----------


## Yetos

> your G2a3* is not enough info...but I have this from Greece 
> 
> In adjacent *Greece*, SNP testing determined that half of eight G samples were G2a3a. The G samples represented 5% of 171 Greek samples. In contrast in nearby Crete, G2a3a was only 20% of the 21 G samples, with G samples representing 11% of 193 island samples.[3] Though treated separately in this study, Crete is part of Greece but with a different settlement history. Farther out in the Mediterranean, in a smaller sample size from *Cyprus* 4 of 7 G samples have the distinctive 21 value seen overwhelmingly in G2a3a persons.[4]
> 
> so you need more info


thank you,
but this was kind of 'questioning' answer to your guestion, about T1a in Crete and how old it is.
if it is found in Central Makedonia among the ex- Bottiaeans j2 (cretan settlers) or in Thessalian J2 then came with them,
if it is found in Smyrne with G2a3a then came with them,
so what your statistics say?
and is it the Aithiopean branch? or the steppe one?

----------


## Sile

> thank you,
> but this was kind of 'questioning' answer to your guestion, about T1a in Crete and how old it is.
> if it is found in Central Makedonia among the ex- Bottiaeans j2 (cretan settlers) or in Thessalian J2 then came with them,
> if it is found in Smyrne with G2a3a then came with them,
> so what your statistics say?
> and is it the Aithiopean branch? or the steppe one?


I do not think so, more like Chios or Antalya ( lycia ) with their 13% ..........but more analysis needs to be done..............but I think more north anatolia/steppe one , pontus lands.

the g2a3 is in my opinion , western black sea thraki to go to boetia

----------


## Yetos

> I do not think so, more like Chios or Antalya ( lycia ) with their 13% ..........but more analysis needs to be done..............but I think more north anatolia/steppe one , pontus lands.
> 
> the g2a3 is in my opinion , western black sea thraki to go to boetia


Βοιωτια Βοττιαια 2 different areas ?
1 is in south Grece, next to Attica and Theba of Kadmos
2 is in N Greece a known Minoan colonisation, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottiaea

<< ” ἧκον οὖν σὺν Φαλάνθῳ οἱ Παρθενίαι, καὶ ἐδέξαντο αὐτοὺς οἵ τε βάρβαροι καὶ οἱ *Κρῆτες* οἱ προκατασχόντες τὸν τόπον. τούτους δ᾽ εἶναί φασι τοὺς μετὰ *Μίνω* πλεύσαντας εἰς *Σικελίαν*, καὶ μετὰ τὴν ἐκείνου τελευτὴν τὴν ἐν *Καμικοῖς* παρὰ Κωκάλῳ συμβᾶσαν ἀπάραντας ἐκ Σικελίας κατὰ δὲ τὸν ἀνάπλουν δεῦρο παρωσθέντας, ὧν τινὰς ὕστερον πεζῇ περιελθόντας τὸν *Ἀδρίαν* μέχρι *Μακεδονίας Βοττιαίους προσαγορευθῆναι*. *Ἰάπυγας* δὲ λεχθῆναι πάντας φασὶ μέχρι τ*ῆς** Δαυνίας ἀπὸ Ἰάπυγος*, ὃν ἐκ Κρήσσης γυναικὸς Δαιδάλῳ γενέσθαι φασὶ καὶ ἡγήσασθαι τῶν Κρητῶν: *Τάραντα* δ᾽ ὠνόμασαν ἀπὸ ἥρωός τινος τὴν πόλιν. 

Strabo. ed. A. Meineke, Geographica. Leipzig: Teubner. 1877.>>

a good question on a linguistic subject
καμικοις, καμινια (lemnos) Val cammunico, Larissa Labyritnh, Lavrio Lassa 

more from Strabo, 

<<κατ᾽ ἀρχὰς μὲν οὖν ἄνδρες ἦσαν οἱ προφητεύοντες: καὶ τοῦτ᾽ ἴσως καὶ ὁ ποιητὴς ἐμφαίνει: ὑποφήτας γὰρ καλεῖ, ἐν οἷς τάττοιντο κἂν οἱ προφῆται: ὕστερον δ᾽ ἀπεδείχθησαν τρεῖς γραῖαι, ἐπειδὴ καὶ σύνναος τῷ Διὶ προσαπεδείχθη καὶ ἡ Διώνη. Σουίδας μέντοι Θετταλοῖς μυθώδεις λόγους προσχαριζόμενος ἐκεῖθέν τέ φησιν εἶναι τὸ ἱερὸν μετενηνεγμένον ἐκ τῆς περὶ *Σκοτοῦσσαν Πελασγίας （ἔστι δ᾽ ἡ Σκοτοῦσσα τῆς Πελασγιώτιδος Θετταλίας）*, συνακολουθῆσαί τε γυναῖκας τὰς πλείστας, ὧν ἀπογόνους εἶναι τὰς νῦν [p. 453] προφήτιδας: ἀπὸ δὲ τούτου καὶ Πελασγικὸν Δία κεκλῆσθαι: Κινέας δ᾽ ἔτι μυθωδέστερον.

*that toponym exist even today*

no need to expand to the greeks Herodotos thoukidides


Chios belong to the Pelasgian pop (Pelasgian Argos) later inhabited by Aeolian Greeks a short time colony of Genouates, *almost genocide* in 1821, resettled by minor Asian Greeks at 1923 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Massacre_at_Chios

Chios Island was monopoly of Ottoman's merchandise due to the unigue masticha (natural chewing gum) and gave a lot of rich to High gate

----------


## MOESAN

> The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.
> 
> *However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. 
> 
> http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One_...d_Ottoman_Rule
> *


_I' ll read your link but the matter was already discussed, and the Y-R1b weight in Creta is only in the eastern quarter of the island and in what is considered as the "_

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## MOESAN

END:
sorry: "considered as the "archaic" part of the plateau - it's true I don't know what they mean by "archaïc" - this venitian occupation is perhaps not the right explanation??? why only in this small south-eastern part?
wait formore details if possible
good night

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## Hauteville

Fascinating theory, many historicians want to link Shardana with ancient Sardinians, Shekelesh with ancient Sicanians and Teres with Etruscans.
Regarding Elymians, the legend of their Trojan exiles origins is nowadays disproved by linguistic studies who link them with Italic.




> Lipotesi di un'affinit con gli idiomi del gruppo anatolico non trova oggi consensi e allelimo viene riconosciuta unitalicit linguistica, pur in assenza di evidenze incontrovertibili che permettano di precisarla ulteriormente. In questa prospettiva, per la Sicilia nord-occidentale lelimo si configurerebbe come una parlata italica, per quanto di un'italicit diversa da quella testimoniata nellEst dellisola dai documenti provenienti da Montagna di Marzo o dal Mendolito di Adrano.





> The hypothesis of an affinity with the idioms of the Anatolian groups do not find consensus and today is recognized at the Elymian an Italic affinity, despite the absence of incontrovertible evidence that allow to specify it further. In this perspective, the northwestern Sicily the elimo would appear as a spoken Italic, as of a different Italic from that witnessed in the East of the island from the documents from Mountain of March or Mendolito Adrano.


http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?...81ad8c10a9c486

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## giuseppe rossi

Indeed Elymians had also strong links with the Celtic speaking Ligurians dating back to the Megalitich-Bell Beaker cultures.

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## Taranis

The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European language_s_ spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.

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## Sile

> The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European language_s_ spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.


Minoan has some merit, because , a recent documentary I saw , dated from 2013 by Israeli archaeologists working on the philistines, stated, pottery, jewellery, genetics and others of the philistines match perfectly the finds they studied in the eastern part of Minoan Crete

----------


## MOESAN

> The idea that some of the Sea Peoples were Italic (geographically or linguistically) is in itself fairly uncontroversial. The Sea Peoples were obviously no homogenous ethnic group, but a multitude of peoples, some which were probably Anatolian (speakers of the Luwic languages), some which may have been Greek (including Minoan), some which may have even been Etruscan. The idea that some of them were Italic isn't controversial. However, the idea that the pre-Roman inhabitants of Sardinia, of all places, were Italic, is not only controverial to me but also absurd, for several reasons: On the genetic side, modern Sardinians seem to be genetically speaking a relatively good representative of Neolithic Europeans in Western Europe. At least, I'm under that impression from a comparison between the various Haplogroups found in Neolithic sites in Spain and France, with the modern-day makeup of the Sardinians. Hence, if you have such a great deal of genetic continuity (as opposed to mainland Europe), chances are that you also had a linguistic continuity until the Roman conquest of Sardinia. On the linguistic side there's clear evidence for non-Indo-European language_s_ spoken in pre-Roman Sardinia, which formed a substrate in Sardinian Romance. On Sicily, I might point out that ancient Greek authors thought that the Sicules were indeed recent immigrants from Italy, while the other ethnic groups of pre-Greek Sicily were natives.


_

I wait for more precise sibclades and datations (TMRCA) - I agree with Taranis concerning heterogeneity of Sea People, some of them victims and allies according to time, mercenaries for the Egyptians too at some times - Sure Sardinians of these times were not Italic nor I-Ean speakers, for I think - but the question of R-U152 in Eastern Creta and its surprising but possible link to an italic language is still a good question!_

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## Giacomo Pozza

My hypothesis is that it was a coalition formed by many different European and western Anatolian ethnicities, The Akawasa and Deynen probably came From Mycenan Greece, the Lukka according to most archeologists are to be identidied with the Lycians, the Sherden obviously are the Nuragic Sardinians (They had the same type of armor and weapons of the Sherden, and the Nuragic civilization flourished around the same time of the sea people invasion, also Nuragic pottery dated to the bronze age is found in a site in Cyrpus which was conquered by the sea people, and there is evidence of frequent contacts between Nuragics and near eastern people). Shekelesh could be Sicilians but we don't have substuntial proves for that, and Pelesets were obviously Philistines, so people of European origins which later settled in Palestine, as proved by the Mycean type of pottery that they used and by their language. I have no idea about Weshesh but my guess is that they were from the adriatic sea, probably Villanovian culture people. Tjekers could be Teucrans and I don't know about Teresh, Etruscans weren't really active during that time.

The route taken by the Uluburum relict, classified by many archelogists to be a sea people's relict, touched all these regions, it's a shame that I can't still post the link since this is my second post.

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## Yetos

> My hypothesis is that it was a coalition formed by many different European and western Anatolian ethnicities, The Akawasa and Deynen probably came From Mycenan Greece, the Lukka according to most archeologists are to be identidied with the Lycians, the Sherden obviously are the Nuragic Sardinians (They had the same type of armor and weapons of the Sherden, and the Nuragic civilization flourished around the same time of the sea people invasion, also Nuragic pottery dated to the bronze age is found in a site in Cyrpus which was conquered by the sea people, and there is evidence of frequent contacts between Nuragics and near eastern people). Shekelesh could be Sicilians but we don't have substuntial proves for that, and Pelesets were obviously Philistines, so people of European origins which later settled in Palestine, as proved by the Mycean type of pottery that they used and by their language. I have no idea about Weshesh but my guess is that they were from the adriatic sea, probably Villanovian culture people. Tjekers could be Teucrans and I don't know about Teresh, Etruscans weren't really active during that time.
> 
> The route taken by the Uluburum relict, classified by many archelogists to be a sea people's relict, touched all these regions, it's a shame that I can't still post the link since this is my second post.



*
Sherden can also be the Sardeis the pre-Vrygian asian minor

----------


## Yetos

> Minoan has some merit, because , a recent documentary I saw , dated from 2013 by Israeli archaeologists working on the philistines, stated, pottery, jewellery, genetics and others of the philistines match perfectly the finds they studied in the eastern part of Minoan Crete


Minoan not only is connected with Pentapolis, but also with Αβαρις Avaris Egypt and a port in Syrria

and minoans knew Italy well and they probably started colonization

----------


## Giacomo Pozza

> *
> Sherden can also be the Sardeis the pre-Vrygian asian minor


I don't think so for many reasons:
1)The Sherden first appered in 1350 BC and Sardis didn't exist back then, and even if a small urban core existed, the town was known with a different name before.
2)Sardis is 150 km away from the sea, while Sherden are described by the Egyptians to be sailors and to come from "the midst of the sea", so most likely an island.
3)While there are many nuragic statues and bronze figures resembling Sherden in Sardinia, we have nothing that suggests the presence of Sherden near Sardeis.
Also due to recent discoveries we know that the first nuragic bronze sculptures were produced around the XIIIth century bc, so in a time really close to that of the sea people invasions, furthermore bronze age stele statues closely resembling Sherden can be found in Corsica too.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't think so for many reasons:
> 1)The Sherden first appered in 1350 BC and Sardis didn't exist back then, and even if a small urban core existed, the town was known with a different name before.
> 2)Sardis is 150 km away from the sea, while Sherden are described by the Egyptians to be sailors and to come from "the midst of the sea", so most likely an island.
> 3)While there are many nuragic statues and bronze figures resembling Sherden in Sardinia, we have nothing that suggests the presence of Sherden near Sardeis.
> Also due to recent discoveries we know that the first nuragic bronze sculptures were produced around the XIIIth century bc, so in a time really close to that of the sea people invasions, furthermore bronze age stele statues closely resembling Sherden can be found in Corsica too.


so do you believe also that the 2 horn helmet, is mark of mediterenean and not of IE?
i ask cause in people's mind, is connected with IE,
but archaiologically is a mark of mediterennean and especially Shardinia


Anyway, Sher Ser Sier in Mediterenean wide glossary means mountains 
Sher also means irrigated agriculture Godess Sirris etc
Sher shar in Afroasitic glossary also means palace, big house, temple

----------


## Giacomo Pozza

> so do you believe also that the 2 horn helmet, is mark of mediterenean and not of IE?
> i ask cause in people's mind, is connected with IE,
> but archaiologically is a mark of mediterennean and especially Shardinia


What do you mean by IE?

During the bronze age and early iron age depictions of bronze helmets are found mostly in Sardinia (and Corsica too), there are some other scarce depictions found in mediterranean area, like the two bronze figures in Cyprus, one mycenean jar and something in Syria, but those are much less and do not represent the typical militar and ceremoniall outfit of the warriors, while those in Sardinia are so many that it is clear that they represent the typical militar and ceremonial outfits of the time.

Not only the nuragics generally wore a horned helmet in battle, but the bronze figures and some statues have the typical round shield, skirt and type of armor that the Sherden wore. Also triangular swords identical to those of the Sherden were found in Sardinia dating back to 1650 BC, bulls, deers and generally horned animals were the most sacred beasts to the Nuragics and appear very often in Nuragic objects (bronze figures, protomes, pottery, etc...).

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## Yetos

> What do you mean by IE?
> 
> During the bronze age and early iron age depictions of bronze helmets are found mostly in Sardinia (and Corsica too), there are some other scarce depictions found in mediterranean area, like the two bronze figures in Cyprus, one mycenean jar and something in Syria, but those are much less and do not represent the typical militar and ceremoniall outfit of the warriors, while those in Sardinia are so many that it is clear that they represent the typical militar and ceremonial outfits of the time.
> 
> Not only the nuragics generally wore a horned helmet in battle, but the bronze figures and some statues have the typical round shield, skirt and type of armor that the Sherden wore. Also triangular swords identical to those of the Sherden were found in Sardinia dating back to 1650 BC, bulls, deers and generally horned animals were the most sacred beasts to the Nuragics and appear very often in Nuragic objects (bronze figures, protomes, pottery, etc...).



I mean that this helmet 





was not a mark of IE culture that time, as some connected with the much later

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## Giacomo Pozza

yeah Vikings did not wear horned helmets in battle, the horned helmets that were found and were believed to be viking helmets were actually made during the Nordic bronze age so of course those did not belong to the medieval vikings, and it appears that those contained holes to hold feathers too.

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## Regio X

> The R1b-U152 in crete comes from the 10000 venetians who settled in crete in the 12th century and departed in the early 17th century. The venetians annexed the island from the byzantines.
> 
> *However, R-U152 occurs in 7.3% of Cretans, suggesting introgression Y-chromosomes of North Italian (Venetian) origin, from the 4-century period of Venetian rule of the island. 
> 
> http://www.academia.edu/2381255/One_...d_Ottoman_Rule
> *


Interesting! The "alpine" L42 (bellow L497) was found in some Ionian Islands (such Corfu and Kythira) and in Montenegro coast. This is probably related to the Venetian domination too.

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## Maleth

> yeah Vikings did not wear horned helmets in battle, the horned helmets that were found and were believed to be viking helmets were actually made during the Nordic bronze age so of course those did not belong to the medieval vikings, and it appears that those contained holes to hold feathers too.


You are correct. The popular association with Viking horned helmets probably came with Karl Doepler who was a designer for opera costumes that took part in a festival in Germany in the mid 1800's

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## Giacomo Pozza

A bronze mask found in Sardinia belonging to the Nuragic civilization compared to a bronze mask found in the near east and classified as a sea peoples' mask: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...89&oe=561D051F

Another picture that shows cultural links between the bronze age Sardinians and the mycenean/agean people: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ab&oe=5633EC3E
This type of helmet is also found in some Nuragic bronze sculptures.

Philistine like helmet depicted in a bronze Nuragic sculpture: https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...4b&oe=5633A246

Distribution of the copper oxhide ingots in the mediterranean, typical of the bronze age and of Cyprus, as you can see an enormous quantity of these was found in Sardinia, showing how the island was at the centre of the trade network of the bronze age: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8FaqOi3Z-c...0/Immagine.png

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