# Humanities & Anthropology > Anthropology & Ethnography > Guess the Ethnicity >  Classification

## Heracles

Im Greek. Can you classify me? Do I have any non European elements in my phenotype? Thanks







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## Heracles

If height has anything to do, im 1.94m tall

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## Angela

You look Greek to me. Some Turks look like you too. Neighboring regions have some overlap.

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## Heracles

Turks are originally, mongoloid with a lot of armenoid and kurdish admixture. In western turkey, due to originally inhabited by Greek populations, many of those so called "turks" have Greek origin.

Do I have anything non European in my features? 
Non European = Mongoloid, arabid, negroid, armenoid.

Thanks for responding :)

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## brg12007

I remember hearing once that moles are considered a levantine trait? I'm balkan and I, my mom and dad all have at least 1 facial mole, they seem to be a common southern european trait, who knows, maybe its from stronger exposure to the sun... But I can't seem to find anything online corroborating this :P so, some food for thought!

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## Heracles

I didnt always have the moles. They were created by lot of sun exposure.

Also, who are the levantines? Are they considered white Europeans?

Edit: i just looked at levantine people. They have nothing in common with my phenotype :P

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## Blanco

I think you can fit anywhere from Iberia to Iran, but you look Greek first and foremost.

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## Heracles

What do you mean i can fit anywhere ? Do i have iranian features? Arent iranians heavily arab mixed? 

Can you elaborate the phenotypical features that makes you think i have arab features?

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## oreo_cookie

Phenotype would be "Pontid" and I could see you as Albanian also.

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## Heracles

Albanian? Are you kidding me? They are dinarics and many are armenoids. 
The albanians who look like me, are mostly of southern Epirus, who are Greek descendants. 

Pontid? Is that a Euro phenotype? Or a mixed ?

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## Blanco

> What do you mean i can fit anywhere ? Do i have iranian features? Arent iranians heavily arab mixed? 
> 
> Can you elaborate the phenotypical features that makes you think i have arab features?


Some Iranians and you share similar look, it doesn't mean that you look Iranian the same way some Spanish people share similar look with you. You can fit in those plases because you likely have both West Mediterranean (Neolithic Farmer) and also Anatolian Farmer/Neolithic Levantine genetic heritage which is a shared genetic heritage anywhere the Mediterranean regions. 
Some Iranians can look like North Europeans, because they have some Indo-European ancestry, there is no "uniform" Iranian or any kind of look. I think you would fit better in parts of the Middle East than in Britain because British people have a completely different genetic heritage than an average Greek person.

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## Heracles

Thats a depressing thought. So, what do I have different than these ancient Greek statues I see? 



ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

There is nothing to ask about, you are typical Greek.


You are Europid, mediterranid not mediterranoid a small but respectable chunk of dinaroid and armenoid features. Alpine elements are not visible from me. (pretty common receipe of the Hellenic people)


To clear some things I use the old fashion terminology and just naming things is a game which you have to agree at first hand with the variations of the Family of the European stock, so with few words Armenides are Europids. 


Anyway you are familiar for me, I would place you at first sight to central and with a lot of disperse in Aegean Sea, not abscent at Ionian islands.


Your set of eyes strikes me mostly as north aegean and north Anatolian but not levantine.
I wonder your parents origins? -Probably today you are somewhere close to Patra ? -Corinthian gulf, Kineta? Beotia?
-Just guessing...


I dont recognize any respectable non european element.


No offense but ...I.94???
From the pictures I saw I would guess about 1.85 ,max


Keep on good shape, use a trimmer for your moustache, kiss deadly, pay your taxes.
Now you are Greek.  :Grin:

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## Heracles

aahahahahahahahah PANAX you made my night :)
Yea im 1.94m and 98 kg.

Armenoids i thought are brachychephalic and you are the first to tell me i have features of an armenoid. What made you think this? Armenoids are brachychepalic, extreme forehead inclination, hooked nose, big jaw, etc. I have exactly the opposite of these features.

Both my parents are from Thrace.

Here is another photo so you can see my height clearly

IMG_20160904_110616[1].jpg

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## LABERIA

> Albanian? Are you kidding me? They are dinarics and many are armenoids. 
> The albanians who look like me, are mostly of southern Epirus, who are Greek descendants. 
> 
> Pontid? Is that a Euro phenotype? Or a mixed ?


There is nothing Albanian in you. 
There are no Albanians of greek descendants. There is a small minority of greeks in south, but they are hellenised vlachs with few Albanians also assimilated in greeks.

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## Heracles

I know that Dinaric phenotype always existed in Greece and that some Albanians are Dinarics, so they can pass for Greeks. But i have no Dinaric influence, as i see myself next to them.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

We all mixed enough so pure samples is almost idealistic concept allthough there are some but rare, usually the modern population is a mix of many elements, maybe two ,three or more...


(sorry for the greeks)
so we say: 
-ίδης = φυλή σωματολογικώς κατά το ήττον καθαρή. π.χ Ευρωπίδης, Νεγρίδης κλπ.


-οείδης= φυλή μικτή, όπου κυριαρχούν μερικώς τα γνωρίσματα της φυλής, που δηλώνει το πρώτο μέρος της λέξεως. π.χ Μογγολοείδης 


I never meant that you are Armenide or Dinarid but for some features which all modern population of greece in a respectable deegree we all share.
Without doubt you are dolihocephalic which by itself indicate what i say to previous post that:
*"You are Europid, mediterranid not mediterranoid " + minor features of other stocks.*

Armenide features? - Long face, rich facial hair...
Dinaroid features? - the same
both mostly dark pigmented.


Anyway photos like maps can easily mislead us... your fourth picture strokes me different ...and both parents Thrace?

Now we have it
Europid ganzolid (thrace) gagaroid (athens).  :Good Job: 

I Love Thrace, I served army sixteen months to the borders... Mine three AAA's of my life:
Athens/ Arta/ Alexandroupolis  :Heart: 


I am Saracatsan both parents Valley of Acheloos (paleo balkano Chimpoid!)

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

... and not to forget is just a "game"...

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## Heracles

This is an armenoid. I believe I have nothing in common.

Also, rich facial hair had all ancient Greeks and im pretty sure, they werent armenoids. Also, scandinavians have rich facial hair. I think mediterranean, nordic and all their sub categories have rich facial hair.

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## LeBrok

You are a perfect Greek, obviously descendent of Greek Gods of Olympus.

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## LeBrok

> *Turks are originally, mongoloid with a lot of armenoid and kurdish admixture.* In western turkey, due to originally inhabited by Greek populations, many of those so called "turks" have Greek origin.
> 
> Do I have anything non European in my features? 
> Non European = Mongoloid, arabid, negroid, armenoid.
> 
> Thanks for responding :)
> 
> ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ


Not really. Turks (as citizens of Turkey) are mostly of Anatolian or local origin since bronze/iron age, with about 10-15% of central asian Turkish admixture.

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## Heracles

LeBrok, thanks for the replying, mate :)

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> You are a perfect Greek, obviously descendent of Greek Gods of Olympus.


The gods left long ago the place but still are some heroes and very few semi-gods still living in Athens. !!!


I woke up morning I put my laundry,-allready done-, I prepare my meal, -almost done-, I will watch the news, I will take an afternoon coffee at Philopappou. (2km from home, 1 km from Acropolis - a spectacular sight of the sacred rock.)


I will come for the symposium at night...

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

I have seen that guy...

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## LeBrok

> This is an armenoid. *I believe I have nothing in common.*
> 
> Also, rich facial hair had all ancient Greeks and im pretty sure, they werent armenoids. Also, scandinavians have rich facial hair. I think mediterranean, nordic and all their sub categories have rich facial hair.
> 
> ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ


 Long oval face, shape of forehead, hair, skin tone, eyes and eyebrows, long nose with high roots, triangular chin, cheekbone shape. To say that you have nothing in common is a stretch, and sound like a very defensive position.

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## Heracles

How can you compare my photos with that armenoid? 

Defensive? Yes, because I consider armenoids non europeans

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## Angela

Another one...just what we needed.

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## Heracles

> Another one...just what we needed.


Mmm?

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## LeBrok

> How can you compare my photos with that armenoid? 
> 
> Defensive? Yes, because I consider armenoids non europeans
> 
> ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ


 We are comparing you to another human being and you are getting defensive! Are you feeling superior to non-Europeans?

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

@Hercules
No kidding you look like Pericles -and that is not an irony- which is very common and there is no doubt about that. but if that is so, why we dont speak about grekanides and grecanoids?- hellenides or hellenoids ? etc.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

Pour some water on your wine... 


_(for the game-s)_ 
* The "game" have many levels of understanding, and pleasure which comes from understanding.


*There many "set of games" as recently noticed to the age of internet for example the trend is to describe stocks with names like: Iranian Neolithic, WHG, CHG, etc


_(how we play)_
*First we have to agree that we have to agree with the terminations and the game we use to end in a common accepted conclusion.


*keep the lines of every different games occasionaly played.


_(how we classify, give a name and order to things_ )
We begin to say what "it is" and not what it is'nt. What "is not" is crucial to a second deegree, so first we are generic and after particullar and specifigue.


_(for the armenides and the armenoids.- people and features)_
For the people: and from anthropological perspective, I have the feeling they are very old in our region. I saw them on mainland as also to the islands. I saw them up on boat ,I saw them as sheppards. I also thing they match well with the Paleo/mesolithic remnant which introduced; the pig herdership -firstly- to our region heading to the transitions for the neolithic evolutions to come. The last one is mine speculation - We said to play... :Rolleyes: 
Did you notice some thing common with what we -propably- say as Alpinides Dinarides, Armenides, Iranides?
For the features: I believe that convex hook type nose is one characterisic among others characteristics. Having one or more characteristics dont make you armenide fro the example.
Some Armenides as well Dinarides have nice straight and long noses. One feature dont say nothing for the whole composite, as the abscence of a feature also.

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## Angela

> @Hercules
> No kidding you look like Pericles -and that is not an irony- which is very common and there is no doubt about that. but if that is so, why we dont speak about grekanides and grecanoids?- hellenides or hellenoids ? etc.


He does indeed. Of course, that's impossible, because the "original" Greeks are supposedly extinct. :) I know a lot of Italians who look like the supposedly extinct Greeks and Romans too, including me, at least a bit.

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

Unfortunately for @Ηercules the fleshy lips are absent.Anyway If anyone wish like ΠΑΝΑΞ's & Pericles lips here's a tip:
Kiss passionate a sandpaper and put peppers on them.  :Laughing: 


What to say about the finger toes. I had a girlfriend once (amazing person, a queen with all means) which use to name my feets as: "the Hands" -so long in other words.
That was true, I use to spend alot of time up on a high positioned drawing desk and usually work at home barefoot, when a pencil dropped down I used to grab them with the toes.-a profoundly heritaged Hellenoid feature.

*Ergonomy is the epitome of lazyness* . _( παναξ 1972)_ -if you ask more greek you go to Hades. (rhetoric sic) :Good Job: 


@Angela your avatar is amazing, Medieval and late I suppose. So beauty.  :Heart:

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## Heracles

Here I have sborten bearb you can see my lips clearer  

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## Heracles

> He does indeed. Of course, that's impossible, because the "original" Greeks are supposedly extinct. :) I know a lot of Italians who look like the supposedly extinct Greeks and Romans too, including me, at least a bit.


If you look anything like your avatar, can I marry you??  



> Unfortunately for @Ηercules the fleshy lips are absent.Anyway If anyone wish like ΠΑΝΑΞ's & Pericles lips here's a tip:
> Kiss passionate a sandpaper and put peppers on them. 
> 
> 
> What to say about the finger toes. I had a girlfriend once (amazing person, a queen with all means) which use to name my feets as: "the Hands" -so long in other words.
> That was true, I use to spend alot of time up on a high positioned drawing desk and usually work at home barefoot, when a pencil dropped down I used to grab them with the toes.-a profoundly heritaged Hellenoid feature.
> 
> *Ergonomy is the epitome of lazyness* . _( παναξ 1972)_ -if you ask more greek you go to Hades. (rhetoric sic)
> 
> ...



ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## tahir0010

Did you just say a lot of Turks have Kurdish admixture... that is hard to see unless you live in the south then yes I could see it but even then most people from the south of Turkey usually are more ethnically Arab then they are Kurdish. Example my family originally came from Mardin and northern Iraq long ago so most likely I do probably have Kurdish blood. But I think you'd pass for Greek like you said I think it's hard to classify a certain person now. Based just off looks. You are probably mixed with Turk or Arab as the Greeks were ruled for a very long time by the ottomans. This is true only if your family has been in Greece for 400-500 years. It is also possible that could have migrated from North Africa, Eastern Europe, Italy. So we are all mixed you do have some Arab features like nose, but even then it's hard to base someone's ethnicity just off there nose. For example I have red hair and light complexion. I have pictures under guess me also, but I'm a Turk. Check out my column if you don't mind.

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## Angela

My avatar is a sculpture supposedly of Beatrice d'Este, one of my favorite Italian Renaissance women. (Another one is Caterina Sforza, who was a bit of a she wolf!) She was a highly educated woman and a great patron of the arts; her salon included Da Vinci, Castiglione, and Bramante. She also seems to have possessed some ability at politics and governance and appears to have been a good and faithful wife despite the fact that her husband doesn't seem to have done much to deserve it. Unfortunately, she died young in childbirth. She has a slightly pensive, melancholy look to me. 


Ah yes, the "Greek" toes. I have them too, although the second toe is not longer than the big toe; they're the same size. Very long and narrow though. It's hell when shoes have a very short toe piece. :) I've never tried picking things up with them, but maybe I could if I practiced. I got them from my father, who used to call them “intelligent” feet. J Now when I look at statuary of the Classical period, I always look at the feet, and most of the time I see that pattern. Who knows, it may just be that they thought that was an attractive look for feet and so gave them to everybody! :) My daughter would agree. Every time we get pedicures she bemoans the fact that she has short, stubby toes. Girls! This should be her biggest problem.

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## oreo_cookie

> You are probably mixed with Turk or Arab as the Greeks were ruled for a very long time by the ottomans. This is true only if your family has been in Greece for 400-500 years.


There is no genetic proof of recent Turkish or Arab mixture in Greece nor does he look Arab....

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## ΠΑΝΑΞ

@Angela
Yes i think also there is a quite melancholic mood but stoic also... like always prepared for the tragedy...
Don't know... When the end comes so unfortunate, we use to say that God -both- wish them. Im touched of her, you gave me a good and very compact view of her. 


...
She is opposing her -left !- cheek. Looking back, maybe somewhere away , somewhere far from here, far -from her heart-, without despise but away from every today's now. But she is there, steady and strong and wait for the drama to complete. ?
- Maybe is a work of art after her's death or maybe i motivated from your words about her. 

(Marbles and toes)
There is -was, and will be- always a "trend" among the artists eveywhere.
It is also true that exists as a feuture for some among us, at least as I can say for today modern greeks, -who know's about the ancients.
For some are beautifull, for others maybe not, but i think is other the deep reason for that, and I mean about the sculpting issues and not to anthropological ones. I hope to find you an other time about that.


(Pedicure)
Walking barefoot to a beach - with very small pebbles- is the ideal. Oil them after. Repeat that as much you can even seasonally.  :Good Job:

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## tahir0010

> There is no genetic proof of recent Turkish or Arab mixture in Greece nor does he look Arab....


I am not talking about recently. I am saying if his family has been in greece at least 400 years they are probably mixed, but because it is highly unlikely for someone to stay in that region for that long. I would guess that they probably migrated from another country. He could pass for someone from the levant.

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## Angela

> @Angela
> Yes i think also there is a quite melancholic mood but stoic also... like always prepared for the tragedy...
> Don't know... When the end comes so unfortunate, we use to say that God -both- wish them. Im touched of her, you gave me a good and very compact view of her. 
> 
> 
> ...
> She is opposing her -left !- cheek. Looking back, maybe somewhere away , somewhere far from here, far -from her heart-, without despise but away from every today's now. But she is there, steady and strong and wait for the drama to complete. ?
> - Maybe is a work of art after her's death or maybe i motivated from your words about her. 
> 
> ...


I think the sculpture captures a big part of her personality, and I've read a lot of her correspondence. Her marriage was an affair of state; Ludovico of Milan wanted her elder sister, but they switched it. He was also in no hurry to marry her, and from some things I've read continued to pursue his pleasures elsewhere. It's certainly not the life a young girl dreams of, even in the Renaissance. Yet, she seems to have done her duty towards him and his city-state in every possible way, including trying to continue the line, giving birth every two years until she died very young. At the same time she continued to pursue her own intellectual and artistic interests, including in poetry and music. It's to his credit that he seems to have respected her and her abilities, and made her his confidant in matters of state. They also write of her that she loved fashion and introduced many new styles to the courts of Italy; I think it's nice that she had some fun and frivolity in her short life. She also had her human failings; she loved to be noticed and admired.:)

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## Blanco

> I am not talking about recently. I am saying if his family has been in greece at least 400 years they are probably mixed, but because it is highly unlikely for someone to stay in that region for that long. I would guess that they probably migrated from another country. He could pass for someone from the levant.


90% of Southern Europeans, Turks, Caucasians can pass in the Levant without being Levantine/Arab admixed, because original Anatolian/Neolithic farmers came from the Fertile Descent.

BTW the OP looks like this Irish/American guy

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## Angela

Actually, the genetic signature of the Early Anatolian farmers is far more present in Southern Europe, where it can be 50-60% of the genome, than in the Near East, where it may only be 20-30% of the genome.

Clearly you haven't read any of the papers about the difference between the Anatolian Neolithic and the Iranian Neolithic, and the gradual movement of the Iranian Neolithic into Anatolia and the Levant, not to mention further movements into Arabia and the Levant from North Africa and Africa itself. 

You know, just because some people have made apricity and biodiversity and all those other sites completely ridiculous, if they weren't so before, with all their unscientific *****ing doesn't mean people can come here and try to do the same thing.

Please catch up on your reading. 

Start with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27502179

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311

Btw, to even suggest that 90% of Southern Europeans would "fit" in the Levant is so ridiculous that it doesn't really merit a response.

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## Heracles

> I am not talking about recently. I am saying if his family has been in greece at least 400 years they are probably mixed, but because it is highly unlikely for someone to stay in that region for that long. I would guess that they probably migrated from another country. He could pass for someone from the levant.


My family lived in Thrace for hundrends of years. We are indigenous Greeks. Mixing with turk or any other non Greek was not allowed and the punishment was death. You know shit about Greece and Greeks. 

Constantinos Triantafyllidis proved that no correlation exists between modern Greeks and mongoloids or arabids or negroids. So your premise is faulty and based on feelings instead of actual research.



ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## Heracles

> 90% of Southern Europeans, Turks, Caucasians can pass in the Levant without being Levantine/Arab admixed, because original Anatolian/Neolithic farmers came from the Fertile Descent.
> 
> BTW the OP looks like this Irish/American guy


Thanks Angela, I love you  

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## tahir0010

> My family lived in Thrace for hundrends of years. We are indigenous Greeks. Mixing with turk or any other non Greek was not allowed and the punishment was death. You know shit about Greece and Greeks. 
> 
> Constantinos Triantafyllidis proved that no correlation exists between modern Greeks and mongoloids or arabids or negroids. So your premise is faulty and based on feelings instead of actual research.
> 
> 
> 
> ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ


Of course a Greek is not going to admit they mixed with Turks, but Ataturk even though I do not like him was a greek was he not? Look at Sahin in Greece it is mostly a Turkish city but you are seriously going to sit her and tell me that the Greeks who used to live there did not mix and marry turks that is complete crap. You are going to tell me that after Mehmet Fetih conquered the Constantinople and eventually when the Ottomans conquered the Greeks that they did not mix. Whether you want to call cypriots greeks you seriously do not think that turks and the greek cypriots have not mixed. That is ridiculous. Greece is still pissed that the ottomans conquered you guys. Also Greece still thinks they are some high and mighty country. You guys were conquered people mixed Greece is not some pure race. did not Secondly if you are from Thrace why are you on here asking people if you have none European Phenotype. If you are an indigenous greek then obviously you would have no other phenotypes then greek. So you are basically just trying to prove you greekness?

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## tahir0010

https://s6.postimg.org/cb1p4unnl/greek_turkey_map.png

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## Heracles

> Of course a Greek is not going to admit they mixed with Turks, but Ataturk even though I do not like him was a greek was he not? Look at Sahin in Greece it is mostly a Turkish city but you are seriously going to sit her and tell me that the Greeks who used to live there did not mix and marry turks that is complete crap. You are going to tell me that after Mehmet Fetih conquered the Constantinople and eventually when the Ottomans conquered the Greeks that they did not mix. Whether you want to call cypriots greeks you seriously do not think that turks and the greek cypriots have not mixed. That is ridiculous. Greece is still pissed that the ottomans conquered you guys. Also Greece still thinks they are some high and mighty country. You guys were conquered people mixed Greece is not some pure race. did not Secondly if you are from Thrace why are you on here asking people if you have none European Phenotype. If you are an indigenous greek then obviously you would have no other phenotypes then greek. So you are basically just trying to prove you greekness?


Im here to ask experienced anthropologists if I have any non european features. You came here to post your poison. 

Again, OFFICIAL genetic study of Constantinos Triantafyllidis, proved all that I previously said. Your retarded low intelligence cannot coprehend it. And you keep insulting my nation, like a good butthurt barbarian that you are.

Come and say to my face that I mixed with a turk, and see what you will get. Shithead

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## tahir0010

> Im here to ask experienced anthropologists if I have any non european features. You came here to post your poison. 
> 
> Again, OFFICIAL genetic study of Constantinos Triantafyllidis, proved all that I previously said. Your retarded low intelligence cannot coprehend it. And you keep insulting my nation, like a good butthurt barbarian that you are.
> 
> Come and say to my face that I mixed with a turk, and see what you will get. Shithead
> 
> ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ


I am not talking crap just saying facts. Ill just ignore you crap talking about you "doing something" Greeks are not some ayran race. No race is pure. I am not even a full blooded Turk, I am a mix of Kurd, Arab, Eastern Europe, and Laz. You cannot look at someone, and guess where they are from. There are people like you that are assyrian. Even Richard Hammond from Top Gear does not look like a typical norther european he has dark hair bushy eyebrows. He could pass for southern France. Even Audrey Hepburn could pass for southern European. So if you already know your 100% greek you do not need anyone to tell you what you look like.

----------


## Heracles

> I am not talking crap just saying facts. Ill just ignore you crap talking about you "doing something" Greeks are not some ayran race. No race is pure. I am not even a full blooded Turk, I am a mix of Kurd, Arab, Eastern Europe, and Laz. You cannot look at someone, and guess where they are from. There are people like you that are assyrian. Even Richard Hammond from Top Gear does not look like a typical norther european he has dark hair bushy eyebrows. He could pass for southern France. Even Audrey Hepburn could pass for southern European. So if you already know your 100% greek you do not need anyone to tell you what you look like.


Can you just leave my thread. Shoo

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

----------


## oreo_cookie

The one thing I have learned is, Turks as a whole are never objective when discussing anything to do with Greece. There is too much bias, historically, for them to do so.

With that said I think you just look Southern European. I don't see anything Levantine and frankly I cannot imagine you'd even pass in Lebanon or Syria let alone Jordan and Palestine.

----------


## Heracles

> The one thing I have learned is, Turks as a whole are never objective when discussing anything to do with Greece. There is too much bias, historically, for them to do so.
> 
> With that said I think you just look Southern European. I don't see anything Levantine and frankly I cannot imagine you'd even pass in Lebanon or Syria let alone Jordan and Palestine.


I appreciate your input. Thanks

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

----------


## tahir0010

> The one thing I have learned is, Turks as a whole are never objective when discussing anything to do with Greece. There is too much bias, historically, for them to do so.
> 
> With that said I think you just look Southern European. I don't see anything Levantine and frankly I cannot imagine you'd even pass in Lebanon or Syria let alone Jordan and Palestine.


Oreo tell me that you do not think Turks, and Greeks mixed. There is no way that it did not happen.. In history. Maybe in modern greece it has not happened. I am talking about in Ottoman rule people did mix. If you did a DNA test from Greeks I am sure some would have Turkish mixture. Maybe not 100% of the population, but as the map that I showed. There is similarities in DNA between Turks and Greeks.

----------


## tahir0010

Okay we are never going to agree on this. They mixed this is no aryan race. People are mixed. That is it. End of story.

----------


## Walhaz

OP, you look like a Turk.

----------


## Heracles

I guess t roll is a forbidden word

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

----------


## tahir0010

> Ironic coming from a closet neo-Nazi who looks like a hairball. Being an insecure racist is the exact opposite of attractive. 
> 
> Did you know that yogurt is Turkish? And that Alexander was a Macedonian, not an Athenian?


Hahaha. Walhaz do you mind checking out my column it is under turkish. Tell me what you think.

----------


## Walhaz

It's a busy life, being a keyboard warrior. Anyone who points out how stupid I am _is_ the retard.

----------


## Angela

You cannot call each other names, curse, and even attack one another's children on this site. 

ENOUGH. Each time you do it you will get an infraction. 

Any more of this and the thread will be closed.

Herakles, you asked, and you were answered. Basta. Any more and you're spamming.

----------


## Yetos

> Of course a Greek is not going to admit they mixed with Turks, but Ataturk even though I do not like him was a greek was he not? Look at Sahin in Greece it is mostly a Turkish city but you are seriously going to sit her and tell me that the Greeks who used to live there did not mix and marry turks that is complete crap. You are going to tell me that after Mehmet Fetih conquered the Constantinople and eventually when the Ottomans conquered the Greeks that they did not mix. Whether you want to call cypriots greeks you seriously do not think that turks and the greek cypriots have not mixed. That is ridiculous. Greece is still pissed that the ottomans conquered you guys. Also Greece still thinks they are some high and mighty country. You guys were conquered people mixed Greece is not some pure race. did not Secondly if you are from Thrace why are you on here asking people if you have none European Phenotype. If you are an indigenous greek then obviously you would have no other phenotypes then greek. So you are basically just trying to prove you greekness?



TahiritisnotcaseofKemal,alsoismentionedMohame
damn this posts, 
I have problem with space bar every first line,

Tahir, he is correct,
the stories about Kemal, Mohamet B, Barbarossa etc, are saying about a Greek-Rum Mother,
there is also the father case like the case of Imbrahim Pargali (Greek father), who ended as Turk married Suleiman's sister.
even today is strangely tabboo, cause you change not only language, not only religion, but even friends, social circles, and most of times your homeland,
*At Ottoman empire the priviledge citizen was the Turk, so to mary a Greek girl, or a Greek man,Ment by force or choice to baptise Muslim and Turk,*
To understand this, the pre-Con/polis fall like Sebasteia(Sivas) Magnisia-Philadelpheia (Manissa) dilemma language or religion, gave results for Ottoman empire but not in big% until 1923,
the existance and exchange of Turkophonoi shows clearly the clear limit and division of society to the 2 cells the old Greek-Rum and the new Ottoman-Turkish,
*major assimilations happened at 1923,* and the dilemma-choice, leave or stay, 
Today is different, today they follow the man's nationality language and religion, but not at that times,
(sorry for the sufragettes, that is the way it is done) 
as there are plenty of cases of famous Turks that have a Greek ancestor,
Same way there are plenty of runaways who ended to live at exile, or comitted suicide to avoid married a 'different'.
women they even killed their kids if it was rape, or suicide

*So among GreeK-Turkish if any mix happened ended as Turk*,

so to end, there are many admixtures among Greeks, before 1860 where is considered the most of searches limit.
But the Turkish admixture is out of disqusion,
and is not only the Turkish, it should be also the Roman admixture if Scythopolis did not existed, and christianity overlaped Polytheism.

and if you speak about 400 years of Ottoman occupation, 
consider the 800 Roman occupation, and Scythopolis.

It is wide known from a holy book,
'You can not beat the Rums',

----------


## tahir0010

> TahiritisnotcaseofKemal,alsoismentionedMohame
> damn this posts, 
> I have problem with space bar every first line,
> 
> Tahir, he is correct,
> the stories about Kemal Mohamet B Barbarossa etc, are saying about a Greek-Rum Mother,
> there is also the father case like the case of Imbrahim Pargali (Greek father), who ended as Turk married Suleiman's sister.
> even today is strangely tabboo, cause you change not only language, not only religion, but even friends, social circles, and most of times your homeland,
> *At Ottoman empire the priviledge citizen was the Turk, so to mary a Greek girl, or a Greek man,Ment by force or choice to baptise Muslim and Turk,*
> ...


Sorry who is correct me or Hercules. So you are saying at the time of the Ottomans there was mixing among the Greeks, and Turks. Now obviously it is not as common. I know that now Turks and Greeks do not get along there is no denying that. Even I had a friend in school who was a Cypriot and his mother hated me for no other reason than I am a Turk. Obviously the younger generation cares less about the Greek, Turk rivalry. Also the village of Şahin or Echinos in Greece is a mainly Turkish village is it not? I am sure if you traced there ancestry back there were probably greeks who converted to Islam.

----------


## Guivre

> Sorry who is correct me or Hercules. So you are saying at the time of the Ottomans there was mixing among the Greeks, and Turks. Now obviously it is not as common. I know that now Turks and Greeks do not get along there is no denying that. Even I had a friend in school who was a Cypriot and his mother hated me for no other reason than I am a Turk. Obviously the younger generation cares less about the Greek, Turk rivalry. Also the village of Şahin or Echinos in Greece is a mainly Turkish village is it not? I am sure if you traced there ancestry back there were probably greeks who converted to Islam.


I do not know the exact situation in Greece, but I know what happened in Bulgaria. It is as Yetos described, when there was mixing the result ended up with the Turkish. Under Turkish rule my dad's village was called "Bulgarian Ovajik" nearby there was a village called "Turkish Ovajik", where the Turks lived. People lived separately. Bulgarian converts to Muhammadism (what it is called in Bulgaria, not an affectation on my part) were classified differently than Turks.

----------


## Yetos

> Sorry who is correct me or Hercules. So you are saying at the time of the Ottomans there was mixing among the Greeks, and Turks. Now obviously it is not as common. I know that now Turks and Greeks do not get along there is no denying that. Even I had a friend in school who was a Cypriot and his mother hated me for no other reason than I am a Turk. Obviously the younger generation cares less about the Greek, Turk rivalry. Also the village of Şahin or Echinos in Greece is a mainly Turkish village is it not? I am sure if you traced there ancestry back there were probably greeks who converted to Islam.



First,
yes I say that there was no general mixing among Greeks and Turks, 
and the limited one (by force or choice) ended to Turks, like the cases of Barbarossa, Imbrahim Pargali, Mohamet.
Not to Greeks, 
If there is a mix in East Greek populations it is in Pontos and Cappadokia Greeks with Laz Iranian and local Anatolia population (Mithridates)
and in minor Asia with Phrygian and Galates
and through a social procces of 1400 years and common religion 

Echinos is another story, At West Thrace live Greeks, Turks and Pomakoi
Geneticks have prove their existance more than 2000 ago at the area, stronlgy endogamous, (HBO's results)
Pomaks might come from ancient Thracians or more East from Meditterean , their old language needs to be researched,
Pomaks are not Turks neither Greeks nether Bulgarians,
their older linguistic idiom is closer to Bulgarian due to their own Satem language (they assimilated Slavic easily due to satem, than Greek Centum)
The terminaton Pomaks is given by Ottoman's in area to all thosewho converted to Islam, 
But they are not all Pomaks, Pomaks have nothing to do with these Pomakoi,
But Politics and religion is giving them either Bulgarian, either Turks, either Greeks,
Officially they are Greek Muslims by international treaty, 
They are Smart, once they had 2-3 passports, Greek German Turkish Bulgarian
Today only 2 one from Eu and one Turkish

But Turkish policy wants them Turks, cause they are Muslims
there was a possibility to exile them at 1952-5 When turkish progrom Greeks of Con/polis,
But no Need, 80% of Pomaks do not have Turkish concious, only their priests,
it is another case the Turks of W Thrace and another the Pomakoi,
for you officially they are all Turks,
For me offcially they are all Greeks,
for a Bulgarian they are Bulgarians
but for them they are Pomakoi neither Greeks neither Turks neither Bulgarians.


there is astrange kind ofEndogamy in Greeks especially at villages from Antique,
and not only with foreigners but sometimes even among Greeks due to origin,
that code broke one time from Roman empire due to christianity,
after that at least she should Christian,
and at modern times especially the last 40 years,

*in ancient Greeks the primary marriage was designed by parents,*
not by love, 
*even today that code exists,* but major marriages are by love, with parents agreement,
due to convert to christianity,
BUT still it is a curse not to have the parents agreement,
it might drive you out of family conectivity. 
Although you can steal your wife, and marry her, but if parents do not agree,
then exile was the way, well not so strong today, but still is tabboo,

generally Greek are not endogamous, but they had a strange code,
the last 50 years, it is open, so open that I am afraid, the future scientists will say about a raid in Greece  :Laughing:  by the results comparing the pre-1860 and after 2017,

----------


## LABERIA

Of course there was mixing. What's the point now? Ottoman Empire was good and Sultan was the chief of Helsinki Humans Right Watch? 
BTW, this story of Barbarossa, Imbrahim Pargali, being greeks was something new for me. Everyday we learn new things.

----------


## tahir0010

> First,
> yes I say that there was no general mixing among Greeks and Turks, 
> and the limited one (by force or choice) ended to Turks, like the cases of Barbarossa, Imbrahim Pargali, Mohamet.
> Not to Greeks, 
> If there is a mix in East Greek populations it is in Pontos and Cappadokia Greeks with Laz Iranian and local Anatolia population (Mithridates)
> and in minor Asia with Phrygian and Galates
> and through a social procces of 1400 years and common religion 
> 
> Echinos is another story, At West Thrace live Greeks, Turks and Pomakoi
> ...


I am laz but I have never heard of Laz Iranians do they share the same phenotypes us laz in Turkey?

----------


## Yetos

> I am laz but I have never heard of Laz Iranians do they share the same phenotypes us laz in Turkey?


sorry I do not understand you?

----------


## tahir0010

> sorry I do not understand you?


Pontos and Cappadokia Greeks with Laz Iranian and local Anatolia population. You said this, and I was saying that there are laz people in Iran as a question.. My family comes from Trabzon, and we are laz, but I have never heard of iranian laz.

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## Yetos

to other forum

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## Blanco

> Actually, the genetic signature of the Early Anatolian farmers is far more present in Southern Europe, where it can be 50-60% of the genome, than in the Near East, where it may only be 20-30% of the genome.
> 
> Clearly you haven't read any of the papers about the difference between the Anatolian Neolithic and the Iranian Neolithic, and the gradual movement of the Iranian Neolithic into Anatolia and the Levant, not to mention further movements into Arabia and the Levant from North Africa and Africa itself. 
> 
> You know, just because some people have made apricity and biodiversity and all those other sites completely ridiculous, if they weren't so before, with all their unscientific *****ing doesn't mean people can come here and try to do the same thing.
> 
> Please catch up on your reading. 
> 
> Start with:
> ...


 


The Early Neolithic Farmer related genome is the most dominant in both Southern Europe and most parts of the Near East, we can call it "Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Neolithic or Natufian" most of these components have a shared origin and don't differ as dramatically as some tests would suggest it. 
Just to make it clear here's the most common autosomal component:

Early Neolithic Farmer/"Near Eastern" related ancestral component is one of the most dominant autosomal admixture in good parts of Europe and the whole West Eurasian region. Fertile Descent is the homeland of the Western civillization and it seems most likely it was the home of the first Early Neolithic farmers who conquered most parts of Europe and pushed the Mesolithic/Paleolithic related people to Northern areas such as modern day Finns and Saamis. 





On the subject what percent of Southern Europeans and Caucasians can fit in the Fertile descent the 90% figure may sound ludicrous, but if we take consider what the relatively unmixed native Levantine stock people such as Druzes and Christian minorities look like then it may be more reasonable. 

Maronite Lebanese don't look very different from most Cypriots and Greeks as well as from other Southern European groups.

----------


## binx

> Maronite Lebanese don't look very different from most Cypriots and Greeks as well as from other Southern European groups.


Lebanese people

----------


## Angela

> The Early Neolithic Farmer related genome is the most dominant in both Southern Europe and most parts of the Near East, we can call it "Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Neolithic or Natufian" most of these components have a shared origin and don't differ as dramatically as some tests would suggest it. 
> Just to make it clear here's the most common autosomal component:
> 
> Early Neolithic Farmer/"Near Eastern" related ancestral component is one of the most dominant autosomal admixture in good parts of Europe and the whole West Eurasian region. Fertile Descent is the homeland of the Western civillization and it seems most likely it was the home of the first Early Neolithic farmers who conquered most parts of Europe and pushed the Mesolithic/Paleolithic related people to Northern areas such as modern day Finns and Saamis. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Outdated analyses and maps based on them won't help you understand population genetics.  :Rolleyes: 

Did you read the papers I linked? You probably didn't, or you wouldn't remain so confused about these basic distinctions. I'm not going to do your work for you and post all the relevant quotes from those papers and the first Lazaridis paper and the Haak paper. Every regular poster here already knows these things. I'm also not going to do a search here for you to find all the discussions, particularly those which contain d-stats for the different types of Neolithic ancestry. Do it yourself both here and on anthrogenica. 

The point, in brief, is this:

The farmers who went to Europe and brought the Neolithic along with them were *not* Iranian Neolithic people. They were from Anatolia, some from the border region between southeastern Anatolia and the northern Levant. The EEF people, or Early European Farmers, whose ancestry is all over Europe but particularly so in the south, were extremely similar to them, picking up at most a few percent of WHG in Europe. The best information we have so far is that they had only a very small minority of Iranian Neolithic ancestry. The people of western Anatolia and nearby regions, and the people of the Zagros Neolithic were quite genetically distinct. Do you understand? The Iranian Neolithic ancestry drastically increased in time and place as they moved south and west across the entire Near East, into India, Central Asia etc. 

D stat and other formal statistical analysis shows that EEF like/Anatolian like farmer ancestry is vastly more frequent in Europe than it is in the modern Near East/Middle East, whatever you want to call it. 

You have to stop relying on calculators based on modern populations. Now that we have formal statistical methods, we know how misleading they can be, particularly in the hands of people who don't even understand how they work.

As to your photo, cherry picking much? Anyone who has ever looked at a picture in a magazine or turned on the television news, or followed world affairs knows that picture is not representative of the entire population. It would be like watching a Bollywood movie and thinking all Indians look like that.

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## Heracles

As always, your answer couldnt be better :)

----------


## Blanco

> Outdated analyses and maps based on them won't help you understand population genetics. 
> 
> Did you read the papers I linked? You probably didn't, or you wouldn't remain so confused about these basic distinctions. I'm not going to do your work for you and post all the relevant quotes from those papers and the first Lazaridis paper and the Haak paper. Every regular poster here already knows these things. I'm also not going to do a search here for you to find all the discussions, particularly those which contain d-stats for the different types of Neolithic ancestry. Do it yourself both here and on anthrogenica. 
> 
> The point, in brief, is this:
> 
> The farmers who went to Europe and brought the Neolithic along with them were *not* Iranian Neolithic people. They were from Anatolia, some from the border region between southeastern Anatolia and the northern Levant. The EEF people, or Early European Farmers, whose ancestry is all over Europe but particularly so in the south, were extremely similar to them, picking up at most a few percent of WHG in Europe. The best information we have so far is that they had only a very small minority of Iranian Neolithic ancestry. The people of western Anatolia and nearby regions, and the people of the Zagros Neolithic were quite genetically distinct. Do you understand? The Iranian Neolithic ancestry drastically increased in time and place as they moved south and west across the entire Near East, into India, Central Asia etc. 
> 
> D stat and other formal statistical analysis shows that EEF like/Anatolian like farmer ancestry is vastly more frequent in Europe than it is in the modern Near East/Middle East, whatever you want to call it. 
> ...







> D stat and other formal statistical analysis shows that EEF like/Anatolian like farmer ancestry is vastly more frequent in Europe than it is in the modern Near East/Middle East, whatever you want to call it.


Early European Farmer admixture is ENF (Early Neolithic Farmer) which peaks in Bedouins and Samaritans + some WHG (Mesolithic Iberian admixture). This component itself peaks in Southernmost Europe, in Western Jewish groups and parts of the Near East. 
This component was based on genomes from Stuttgart, Oetzi and has genetic relatedness to Anatolian farmers and Levant Neolithic with WHG admixture which is already a Mesolithic European component. 

 







> The farmers who went to Europe and brought the Neolithic along with them were not Iranian Neolithic people. They were from Anatolia, some from the border region between southeastern Anatolia and the northern Levant. The EEF people


You didn't understand what i said. Iran Neolithic peaks in modern day Iran and further West Asia but this genetic component has ancestral links towards other Anatolian related genetic components. It's closely related to CHG which is an existent component in all Europeans. 



Anatolian Neolithic for example has around 40% Iran Neolithic related genomes, while the rest is Levant Neolithic and WHG related components. 







> As to your photo, cherry picking much? Anyone who has ever looked at a picture in a magazine or turned on the television news, or followed world affairs knows that picture is not representative of the entire population. It would be like watching a Bollywood movie and thinking all Indians look like that.


I don't need to cherry pick to show that certain Near Eastern populations remained relatively unmixed and show greater affinity towards some Mediterranean groups.
With proper lighting this is what most look like, other than you barely find light haired individuals the average looks seem not so far off compared to what you can find in Greece, Spain and Southern Italy. OP can easily fit among these better than in North Italy, France, Austria.

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## Heracles

With the only people i share some similarity, are the third photo. All the other, are very different from me, and all the Greeks i have seen. No Greek looks like those people. Yo are mistaken.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Outdated analyses and maps based on them won't help you understand population genetics.


That map was made by one of the Apricity's admins. From where Blanco comes from.

----------


## Yetos

yet I can still recognise a Greek a Cypriot from a Lebanese , 
when I see the photos Had the Feeling that are not Greeks,

----------


## Yetos

@ Hercules,

Are you from around Eleytheroupoli?
I 've seen such characteristics around there

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## Heracles

Alexandroupolis :) Both my parents

----------


## Angela

> Early European Farmer admixture is ENF (Early Neolithic Farmer) which peaks in Bedouins and Samaritans + some WHG (Mesolithic Iberian admixture). This component itself peaks in Southernmost Europe, in Western Jewish groups and parts of the Near East. 
> This component was based on genomes from Stuttgart, Oetzi and has genetic relatedness to Anatolian farmers and Levant Neolithic with WHG admixture which is already a Mesolithic European component. 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is *not* what you said in your post upthread. *This* is is what you said upthread:




> *Blanco:The Early Neolithic Farmer related genome is the most dominant in both Southern Europe and most parts of the Near East, we can call it "Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Neolithic or Natufian" most of these components have a shared origin and don't differ as dramatically as some tests would suggest it. 
> 
> *


That is completely and utterly incorrect. *There are no academic papers* which state that the *Anatolian Farmers and the Iranian Neolithic Farmers* have a shared origin, and academic analysis from the best genetics labs in the world state exactly the opposite and point out that *they are genetically distinct.*  To jumble it all together and state that the names don't matter and can be applied interchangeably shows that you don't really understand the findings of modern genetics.

What precisely are your qualifications, and where is your proof that they don't differ dramatically? Some amateurish analysis of gedmatch calculators based on modern populations? Save it, that's nonsense.


The Natufians were hunter-gatherers, so again you're completely confused.

When your errors were pointed out to you, instead of admitting that you were wrong you've come up with a new post with a substantially different analysis, and pretend that's what you meant all along. 

Plus, you're still wrong. EEF like/Anatolian farmer like ancestry peaks in southern Europe, reaching levels of 50-60%. It's at much lower levels in the Near East. You keep referring to bits of outdated analysis you picked up along the way. Time to move on. You could check the d-stats and other formal statistical analysis on some threads in Anthrogenica. Oh wait, I forgot. You're banned there. 

Oh, and it is *not* Iranian Neolithic farmer which went into the steppe and from there into Europe with the steppe populations and perhaps also into Southern Europe in the Bronze Age. It is CHG, a related component, or we may find out it was that CHG and/or some Chalcolithic people from the area. Regardless, since that ancient genome was discovered, that ancestry is never included in the percentages for "farmer" data in Europe. It is always buried in the steppe population percentage or sometimes as CHG. So, someone who wanted to compute "southern" or "Near Eastern" ancestry could add up all the EEF or Anatolian Neolithic plus all the CHG in Europe. It would come out way over 50% everywhere in Europe except perhaps in the Baltics. However, that number would *not* be the Early Farmer percentage.

To add insult to injury you use *exactly* the same graphics which *I* gave to *you* when we last discussed this exact same issue on a different thread. Did you think I had forgotten? 

I'm perfectly willing to discuss these issues with people, and particularly if I can learn from them, but I'm *not* willing to have discussions with dishonest people who play these kinds of games. Do not expect any serious, thoughtful responses from me in the future.

As for your picture spam, if I thought you truly believed those people are interchangeable with Southern Europeans I would say that you need glasses. I don't think you're serious, however. I think you're deliberately being provocative and disruptive, so I'm warning you that if you continue with these kinds of posts you'll get the infraction you so richly deserve.

----------


## Blanco

> This is *not* what you said in your post upthread. *This* is is what you said upthread:
> 
> 
> 
> That is completely and utterly incorrect. *There are no academic papers* which state that the *Anatolian Farmers and the Iranian Neolithic Farmers* have a shared origin, and academic analysis from the best genetics labs in the world state exactly the opposite and point out that *they are genetically distinct.*  To jumble it all together and state that the names don't matter and can be applied interchangeably shows that you don't really understand the findings of modern genetics.
> 
> What precisely are your qualifications, and where is your proof that they don't differ dramatically? Some amateurish analysis of gedmatch calculators based on modern populations? Save it, that's nonsense.
> 
> 
> ...


According to you if someone is a hunter gatherer and another one is a farmer then these individuals have to differ because of their supposed "job". Genetic doesn't work this way
It seems you completely don't understand autosomal components and have a 2 way thinking "It's European and the other component not" but in a nutshell i try to explain why this is nothing but a logical fallacy. 

Anatolia Neolithic: (Used to peak in Asia Minor, nowadays it's distributed among the Mediterranean shores. As I've seen it peaks in Sardinia followed by North Africa and Southernmost Europe)

38.7% Iran Neolithic
33.9% Levant_Neolithic (mostly Natufian)
27.4% WHG

EEF (European Early Neolithic) - Basically the same as Anatolia Neolithic 

92.9% Anatolia Neolithic
7.1% WHG

CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer) 

71.6% Iran_Neolithic
21.4% EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer)

As you can see both the Anatolian Neolithic and the CHG has major Iran Neolithic related genomes which is basically no different from Iran Neolithic because these components share the same with Iran Neolithic as well with Levant Neolithic and WHG/EHG. I don't care to explain furthermore wither you understand it or not.

Yes you're right about the spamming, but it's interesting how some people think all Europeans look the same and the Middle East is completely different, because in their book being European is something unique rather a dynasty which is about to downfall forever due to migrations, low birthrates and because of the same agenda which tries to throw any European nations under the bus.

----------


## Angela

> According to you if someone is a hunter gatherer and another one is a farmer then these individuals have to differ because of their supposed "job". Genetic doesn't work this way
> It seems you completely don't understand autosomal components and have a 2 way thinking "It's European and the other component not" but in a nutshell i try to explain why this is nothing but a logical fallacy. 
> 
> Anatolia Neolithic: (Used to peak in Asia Minor, nowadays it's distributed among the Mediterranean shores. As I've seen it peaks in Sardinia followed by North Africa and Southernmost Europe)
> *
> 38.7% Iran Neolithic
> 33.9% Levant_Neolithic (mostly Natufian)
> 27.4% WHG*
> 
> ...


Those numbers are not, I repeat *NOT* the breakdown for the early Anatolian farmers who went to Europe. 

That kind of breakdown is for later periods, when the Iranian farmer input had moved south and west. The proof is that the EEF, who are the Anatolian Neolithic people plus a few percent WHG, have almost no Iranian Neolithic.

Even your beloved, outdated gedmatch analyses show that.

Don't ever again present data without citations or references. One more attempt to cheat and present false data and you're out of here.

----------


## MarkoZ

> According to you if someone is a hunter gatherer and another one is a farmer then these individuals have to differ because of their supposed "job". Genetic doesn't work this way
> It seems you completely don't understand autosomal components and have a 2 way thinking "It's European and the other component not" but in a nutshell i try to explain why this is nothing but a logical fallacy. 
> 
> Anatolia Neolithic: (Used to peak in Asia Minor, nowadays it's distributed among the Mediterranean shores. As I've seen it peaks in Sardinia followed by North Africa and Southernmost Europe)
> 
> 38.7% Iran Neolithic
> 33.9% Levant_Neolithic (mostly Natufian)
> 27.4% WHG
> 
> ...


Most of the relatedness probably comes from the shared substratum that derives from the 'WHG' branch that seems to be evenly spread in the Middle East. The intrusive Basal Eurasian reached North Iran already in the Epipaleolithic, so it's another likely factor in drawing those populations closer together. This shared ancestry makes it possible to create all kinds of models, since there are no samples that ante-date the convergence of populations in Asia Minor and vicnity. I wouldn't put too much stock into these, at least not until they are carefully tested against others models to see how they hold up. Judging from the models published by Lazaridis and others, Iran_Neolithic seems to be only very weakly related to those Anatolians, despite geographic proximity. The authors of the recent paper about Neolithic Iberians whose names I forgot dubbed the former he 'Central Asian', which the Spanish farmers had at near-noise levels only.

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## brg12007

i do agree that south eastern europeans do seem to appear on a continuum ethnically with the middle east towards central europe. in any given family you're able to find relatives who look like the above photos of various west asian populations, just as you might have a relative who could look like a fairer northern european. OP to me could probably pass most places in europe, though he may not definitively look like a native.

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## Heracles

> i do agree that south eastern europeans do seem to appear on a continuum ethnically with the middle east towards central europe. in any given family you're able to find relatives who look like the above photos of various west asian populations, just as you might have a relative who could look like a fairer northern european. OP to me could probably pass most places in europe, though he may not definitively look like a native.


Where would I pass as a native in your opinion?

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## brg12007

haha, well bear in mind i'm not very good at classifications, there is something kind of celtic about your appearance, but you definitely don't look like your typical irishman. i would say greece, parts of italy, maybe croatia or poland?

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## Heracles

> haha, well bear in mind i'm not very good at classifications, there is something kind of celtic about your appearance, but you definitely don't look like your typical irishman. i would say greece, parts of italy, maybe croatia or poland?


Heard all these resemblances before so maybe you are right. I gather opinions to extract a summary.
I wish I knew a professional anthropologist who isnt bound by PC police and race blindness 

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## Boreas

There is no such a Greek Type, 

As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North. 

Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.

East Roman Hellenism

Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek. 

I don't metion about Greek people exodus from Egypt to Russia. Greeks who mixed with locals but kept Greek identity during the all time, run to Greece in the past century.

For me, Heracles 

You are looking more Balkanic then Mediterrean type. 

BTW Why do you torture us? Do the test and share the results  :Grin:

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## Heracles

> There is no such a Greek Type, 
> 
> As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North. 
> 
> Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.
> 
> East Roman Hellenism
> 
> Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek. 
> ...


What the hell is balkanic? 
If you mean dna test, if I had the money I would

ΑΙΕΝ ΑΡΙΣΤΕΥΕΙΝ ΚΑΙ ΥΠΕΙΡΟΧΟΝ ΕΜΜΕΝΑΙ ΑΛΛΩΝ

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## Odysseus

Here in South-Africa where I live white people are mostly mixed-European and come from different European backgrounds like Dutch , British , Scandinavian , Italian , French ect.
one of my brother's gym partners is 6'6 ft tall guy & almost look identical to you , Overall I think you look more Spanish than Greek , that's just my opinion.

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## Yetos

> There is no such a Greek Type, 
> 
> As in Italy, there are clear difference between Greeks in South - North. 
> 
> Let's remember Alexander's Hellenism.
> 
> East Roman Hellenism
> 
> Hellenism in Ottoman, Yes in Turk-Greek marriage, people became Turk. Similarily, Levantine people of Ottoman usually did marriage with Greeks and these people latinazed too. However in Bulgar/Serb-Greek marriage, people became Greek. 
> ...


AboutGreek
About Greek Serb BulgarIan and generally Slavic mixed marriage you are wrong,
In Greece and in Serbia and Bulgaria there were populations that had a small % of mix,
But after the revolts and especially the 1 WW that ended, 
many Greeks and Serbs and Bulgarians change country, and those who remained changed nativity,
there was an equality among them, 
even among Greece and Fyrom there was an unoffcial exchange of population,
except the case of civil war.

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## Boreas

> AboutGreek
> About Greek Serb BulgarIan and generally Slavic mixed marriage you are wrong,


No, I am not. I couldn't tell what I mean or you didn't get it well.

Greek culture is one of the dominant Culture in History. It was like that also in Ottoman. 

Not more then Dominant from Turk (Turk-Greek mariages ended with Turk, this is your opinion and I totally agree with it)

In same way, Bulgar-Greek marriages ended with Greeks. Secondly probably as a result of one of the biggest acceptted culture in Ottoman many non greek orphants rase in Greek schools. 




> In Greece and in Serbia and Bulgaria there were populations that had a small % of mix,
> But after the revolts and especially the 1 WW that ended, 
> many Greeks and Serbs and Bulgarians change country, and those who remained changed nativity,
> there was an equality among them, 
> even among Greece and Fyrom there was an unoffcial exchange of population,
> except the case of civil war.


I was talking about Hellenisation/Greekification during all the history, not last century.

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## Pratt

You look Greek.

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## Diomedes

C'mon OP. Do not be defensive. You look like a typical Greek of today's Greece. We Greeks, and generally the people around the Mediterranean, tend to have similar phenotypes. Specifically for us Greeks, we can find similarities with people in Southern Italy (Magna Graecia), Southern Albania (Northern Epirus), and parts of Turkey close to the Aegean and Pontus Euxinus.

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## Yetos

> No, I am not. I couldn't tell what I mean or you didn't get it well.
> 
> Greek culture is one of the dominant Culture in History. It was like that also in Ottoman. 
> 
> Not more then Dominant from Turk (Turk-Greek mariages ended with Turk, this is your opinion and I totally agree with it)
> 
> In same way, Bulgar-Greek marriages ended with Greeks. Secondly probably as a result of one of the biggest acceptted culture in Ottoman many non greek orphants rase in Greek schools. 
> 
> 
> ...


Hellenisation is a true and a strange story,
but same as Hellenisation worked,
worked Italization Romanisation Slavisation Albanisation Arabisation and Ottomanisation,
and although marriages contribute to that, 
major factor are other reasons,
for example in Syria the time of Seleukids we had big Hellenisation, 
but that was not due to marriages,
same at Philadelpheia Magnesia (Manissa)
we had Ottomanisation and force to change language, but that does really mean a big mix due to marriages,
but after 2-3 generations the one change become one with the ones who change them as conserns the marriage

The difference among Greek or Slav -Turkey marriages was major that islam was primary religion at Ottoman times,
but at an common marriage, among the rest major role played the male origin,
for example a marriage among a Greek male and a Bulgarian female turns to Greek
but a marriage among a Bulgarian male and a Greek female ends to Bulgarian
That rule is far old as I know, (except Aegean islands and some isolated villages) for Haimos peninsula and Turkey
and is a kind of a small shame to stay at your wifes house family

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## Heracles

I am not defensive, I just want to figure out my genetic and phenotype past. 
When you say, of todays Greece, what do you mean? How were the ancient Greeks different? Can you ellaborate?

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## Nik

I'll share my opinion as I've lived among many ethnicities you were compared to and in several regions of the world. 

1. Races/subraces are not defined by modern borders, so being from the Mediterranean and asking if there are non European influences makes no sense. You fit perfectly in the country you come from, as well as in the region you come from. 

2. If you want to compare your phenotype to that of other countries, let me tell you that i've met Bulgarians and Macedonians that are similar to you, seen guys from Thessaloniki that have more or less an identical mix of features as you, and I know many Spaniards (lived there) that look like you, and I spend most of the year in the middle east for work and have known plenty of Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians (not Syrians though) who look just like you, being very tall as well. In general, since I'm Albanian, what separates the Albanians from Greeks in appearance is the Lebanese-like features in Greeks, while Albanians could overlap only with Syrians. 

3. Strangely, although Italy has been almost like my second home, I haven't really seen Italians looking similar to you (including the height). 

4. Not really addressed to you but in general to people who think that South Albanians can overlap with Greeks or that you can fit in Albania, I completely disagree for the simple reason that what is called a typical South Albanian is really just the excessive Alpine type, which has nothing to do with what is known as the typical Greek look. You're more likely to find your type in the coastal areas of Albania from North to South (especially North), on the coastal Montenegro, or even in Kosovo, where the Mediterranoids are far more present and mixed with Dinaroids (or CM) just like you (my opinion). 

So about your phenotype, I believe you're Mediterranean (eastern version of Atlanto-Mod) blended Dinaroid, hence your Ancient Greek ideal appearance which was a Dinaricized Med. 

I would like to share that interestingly enough, many very tall Albanian, Montenegrin, and Serbs are not Dinaroids but Dinaric+Meds, and from my personal experience they're way taller than their Dinaric/Borreby-like fathers. I always assumed it has something to do with the disproportional long lengs of the Dinaroids, that when mixed with Atlanto-Meds the body tries to make itself more proportional and develops a longer trunk :P If anyone has noticed the same and has a better explanation behind the reason why Dinaric+Atlanto-Med end up taller than Dinarics please share as I've wondered all my life.

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## Diomedes

I just stated what I have seen given my own experience in our country, that is why I used the term in "today's Greece". I am not expert whatsoever on phenotypes. For this, there are other people who can help you and I believe quite a few have given you an answer.

I feel you try to prove your "greakness(sic)" based on your looks. I believe there's no point in doing this. We are Greeks, some will say Neo-Hellenes, and that's all. 




> I am not defensive, I just want to figure out my genetic and phenotype past. 
> When you say, of todays Greece, what do you mean? How were the ancient Greeks different? Can you ellaborate?

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## Heracles

> I just stated what I have seen given my own experience in our country, that is why I used the term in "today's Greece". I am not expert whatsoever on phenotypes. For this, there are other people who can help you and I believe quite a few have given you an answer.
> 
> I feel you try to prove your "greakness(sic)" based on your looks. I believe there's no point in doing this. We are Greeks, some will say Neo-Hellenes, and that's all.


No, you cannot disregard the ancestry or phenotype when you characterize "greekness". Being Greek is foremost genetic and ancestral. A mongoloid or negroid or arabid cannot be greek. 
Along and after ancestry comes the spirituality.

And yes, I try to find my past, since we cant find data beyond 1700 in my family history. And im trying to trace my ancestry through anthropology and genetics(i have ordered a DNA paternal and maternal test!).

Wanting to find your genetic and national identity isnt to be looked down, but to be encouraged.

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## Heracles

> I'll share my opinion as I've lived among many ethnicities you were compared to and in several regions of the world. 
> 
> 1. Races/subraces are not defined by modern borders, so being from the Mediterranean and asking if there are non European influences makes no sense. You fit perfectly in the country you come from, as well as in the region you come from. 
> 
> 2. If you want to compare your phenotype to that of other countries, let me tell you that i've met Bulgarians and Macedonians that are similar to you, seen guys from Thessaloniki that have more or less an identical mix of features as you, and I know many Spaniards (lived there) that look like you, and I spend most of the year in the middle east for work and have known plenty of Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians (not Syrians though) who look just like you, being very tall as well. In general, since I'm Albanian, what separates the Albanians from Greeks in appearance is the Lebanese-like features in Greeks, while Albanians could overlap only with Syrians. 
> 
> 3. Strangely, although Italy has been almost like my second home, I haven't really seen Italians looking similar to you (including the height). 
> 
> 4. Not really addressed to you but in general to people who think that South Albanians can overlap with Greeks or that you can fit in Albania, I completely disagree for the simple reason that what is called a typical South Albanian is really just the excessive Alpine type, which has nothing to do with what is known as the typical Greek look. You're more likely to find your type in the coastal areas of Albania from North to South (especially North), on the coastal Montenegro, or even in Kosovo, where the Mediterranoids are far more present and mixed with Dinaroids (or CM) just like you (my opinion). 
> ...


Thank you for your response. It was very helpful!!

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## Aaron1981

My answer is a little different from others. You look more south European (Iberian especially) or west European to me with some mild Middle Eastern features. The main difference I see from Europeans is your eye shape and eye folds which is more Middle Eastern, otherwise the facial structure could pass anywhere in Europe really. (but esp west or south Europe)

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## Heracles

> My answer is a little different from others. You look more south European (Iberian especially) or west European to me with some mild Middle Eastern features. The main difference I see from Europeans is your eye shape and eye folds which is more Middle Eastern, otherwise the facial structure could pass anywhere in Europe really. (but esp west or south Europe)


What the hell is middle eastern features? Middle east isnt a race. Define racial type and exact features. What in my eyes made you think I have mongrel heritage?

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## Blanco

> What the hell is middle eastern features? Middle east isnt a race. Define racial type and exact features. What in my eyes made you think I have mongrel heritage?


There's no need to act uncivil, because we don't tell you that you look 'Irish'. People been classified you as "Greek looking". If you were reading about the toughs of Ancient Greek philosophers as I recall their view on the Greek race were "We're darker than the Northern barbarians, but lighter than the Egyptians, therefore Greek is the ideal race".

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## stevenarmstrong

Here in California we'd classify you as "d-bag."

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## Angela

There is no such thing as a "mongrel" race. All human groups are a mixture of divergent human groups from the past. Greeks are a mix, like all Europeans, of WHG, EHG, EEF, and CHG. Only the proportions change. 

Those alleles came with different "host" populations which carried some or all of those ancestries in different proportions, sometimes with farmers from the Near East 7,000 years ago, EHG and CHG 5,000 years ago with steppe peoples as well as some more EEF like ancestry, some more EN along with Iran Neolithic ancestry perhaps with Copper or Bronze Age peoples, and then some "Celtic", "Slavic" etc. in more proximate times in the first millennium BC and in the early Medieval period.

Physical "appearance" will come from alleles from all those people. Depending on the migration history of any one place certain traits will appear in varying frequency.


Enough has been said. This is starting to look like spamming to get a different answer. The OP looks indeed like a Greek who is the product of all these ancient migrations.

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## Blanco

deleted. wrong quote

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## Lenab

> I remember hearing once that moles are considered a levantine trait? I'm balkan and I, my mom and dad all have at least 1 facial mole, they seem to be a common southern european trait, who knows, maybe its from stronger exposure to the sun... But I can't seem to find anything online corroborating this :P so, some food for thought!


Hi moles aren't exclusive to any race of people

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## Lenab

> yet I can still recognise a Greek a Cypriot from a Lebanese , 
> when I see the photos Had the Feeling that are not Greeks,


Many Cypriots are Hellenic still they have slightly more West Asian aka Greco Anatolian admixture but not much

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## Lenab

> Im Greek. Can you classify me? Do I have any non European elements in my phenotype? Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my PE-TL10 using Eupedia Forum mobile app


Hey did you get kicked off that silly other forum?

Anyway you are a Dinaric Mediterranean, typical for North Greece. You look a bit Italian too

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## Lenab

> Some Iranians and you share similar look, it doesn't mean that you look Iranian the same way some Spanish people share similar look with you. You can fit in those plases because you likely have both West Mediterranean (Neolithic Farmer) and also Anatolian Farmer/Neolithic Levantine genetic heritage which is a shared genetic heritage anywhere the Mediterranean regions. 
> Some Iranians can look like North Europeans, because they have some Indo-European ancestry, there is no "uniform" Iranian or any kind of look. I think you would fit better in parts of the Middle East than in Britain because British people have a completely different genetic heritage than an average Greek person.


You mean the Steppes goofy. You have it the wrong way around Neolithic farmers and WHG are South East European in genetics 

Read and learn http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-European.html

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## Lenab

> The Early Neolithic Farmer related genome is the most dominant in both Southern Europe and most parts of the Near East, we can call it "Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Neolithic or Natufian" most of these components have a shared origin and don't differ as dramatically as some tests would suggest it. 
> Just to make it clear here's the most common autosomal component:
> 
> Early Neolithic Farmer/"Near Eastern" related ancestral component is one of the most dominant autosomal admixture in good parts of Europe and the whole West Eurasian region. Fertile Descent is the homeland of the Western civillization and it seems most likely it was the home of the first Early Neolithic farmers who conquered most parts of Europe and pushed the Mesolithic/Paleolithic related people to Northern areas such as modern day Finns and Saamis. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maronite Lebanese have Ghassanid and Assyrian admixtures they are not European.

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## Balkan1992

Authentic greek

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## PRAETOR

You are a typical Greek looking man. We Greeks, can recognice a non Greek person by the look. We look different from Slavic Balkan People, different from Albanian People, Different from Caucasian People and North African People. We look more close to South Italians and West Turkey (Μικρά Ασία) people but still different. We are not a pure race but a mixed one like the most people in the world. Through history a lot of diffrent ethnic groups came to Greece. In mine opinion the main Genetic Pool is the same and there are a few differences from person to person maybe through an intermix years ago. Its is the language we talk, the way we think and we behave that makes as Greeks. If you have read Homerus you can see that the way we think and we react is exactly the same like our ancestors. These things make as Greeks. I believe we were a quite mix race in the ancient times too (but from close and related populations). I can't see a clear non Greek characteristic at you.

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## ihype02

> What the hell is middle eastern features? Middle east isnt a race. Define racial type and exact features. What in my eyes made you think I have mongrel heritage?


Well you just bashed your head to the Aristotle statue. Hope it did not hurt much.

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