# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Photo-real portraits of Roman emperors

## Maciamo

Using the neural-net tool Artbreeder, Photoshop and historical references, Daniel Voshart have created photoreal portraits of Roman Emperors. For this project, I have transformed, or restored (cracks, noses, ears etc.) 800 images of busts to make the 54 emperors of The Principate (27 BC to 285 AD). He posted about it on Medium and explained in detail how he recreated the face of each emperor one by one. The realism is absolutely amazing!

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## Ygorcs

Amazing work! Very realistic features and hair and eye colors. Really life-like. I just wondered if some of them were really as darker-skinned as he depicted them, some also have a brownish skin tone that I don't think is very realistic, I mean, it's a sort of pale grey-ish brown that you just don't see (usually) in Mediterranean people nor in Near Eastern and North African people, who even when very tanned or even brown-skinned have more "reddish" or bronze-like tones, not that kind of pale grey-ish brown of his depiction of Numerian (for example). I'd also like to know why he depicted Numerians' father Carus so dark when he was probably from Gaul, along with some other emperors. Is there any evidence that they had ancestry from other parts of the empire?

Btw did Hostilian (what a name...) really have such Hollywood looks?  :Thinking:  :Smile:

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## Salento

Is it just my impression, but did they make Augustus look like James Bond (Daniel Craig)?

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## Salento

... imho:

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## Jovialis

Interesting comments made by the artist on his twitter page.

Turns out he wasn't trying to make Augustus blonde, but rather dirty-blonde leaning towards brown. He was actually trying to gray his hair due to his age, but the filter he used made it look blonder than it was supposed to be:




> Some of the confusion may stem from the fact that I aged the busts in an effort not to romanticize history. I grayed Augustus' hair.The mosaic filter may have made it look blond by blending the pixels. Dirty-blond leaning brown with blue eyes. That was my goal.
> https://twitter.com/dvoshart/status/1288465640966291462

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## real expert

> Amazing work! Very realistic features and hair and eye colors. Really life-like. I just wondered if some of them were really as darker-skinned as he depicted them, some also have a brownish skin tone that I don't think is very realistic, I mean, it's a sort of pale grey-ish brown that you just don't see (usually) in Mediterranean people nor in Near Eastern and North African people, who even when very tanned or even brown-skinned have more "reddish" or bronze-like tones, not that kind of pale grey-ish brown of his depiction of Numerian (for example). I'd also like to know why he depicted Numerians' father Carus so dark when he was probably from Gaul, along with some other emperors. Is there any evidence that they had ancestry from other parts of the empire?
> 
> Btw did Hostilian (what a name...) really have such Hollywood looks?



Believe it or not there will be no shortage of people that will complain about the photo- real portraits depicting Romans as Anglo-Saxon-like instead of proper olive -skinned Mediterraneans.

Many insist that ancient Romans looked like the very swarthy Italo- Americans from the Mafia movies and that real Italians are never pale-rosy pink skinned people. So probably the artist who made these portraits didn't want them to appear too pale. However, I think the creation of the photo-real reconstruction is very nicely done. Besides, the ethnic Roman emperors on the portraits are very Italian looking.

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## Ygorcs

> Is it just my impression, but did they make Augustus look like James Bond (Daniel Craig)?


Well, I ALWAYS thought Daniel Craig looked like some Roman busts (probably I even thought so because I had the busts of Augustus in mind subconsciously). lol

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## real expert

> ... imho:


In my opinion that is based on how Sueton described Augustus, he had most likely sandy blond hair. Hence, this hair color is a bit too dark.

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## Salento

> In my opinion that is based on how Sueton described Augustus, he had most likely sandy blond hair. Hence, this hair color is a bit too dark.


Suetonius never met Augustus!

... older:

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## Joey37

Is it just me, or does Nero have an incredibly punchable face?

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## Jovialis

Here is Augustus' haircolor according to the retored version of his painted statue. It looks like a light brown to me:

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## Jovialis

> Believe it or not there will be no shortage of people that will complain about the photo- real portraits depicting Romans as Anglo-Saxon-like instead of proper olive -skinned Mediterraneans.
> 
> Many insist that ancient Romans looked like the very swarthy Italo- Americans from the Mafia movies and that real Italians are never pale-rosy pink skinned people. So probably the artist who made these portraits didn't want them to appear too pale. However, I think the creation of the photo-real reconstruction is very nicely done. Besides, the ethnic Roman emperors on the portraits are very Italian looking.


Italians are heterogenous in terms of phenotype, even those from the same region, and even family. My brother looks different from me, and my sisters. But genetically, we are the same. Ironically, he is the most "northern", yet is the darkest. But so are many other groups, example of two brothers that look different:

Donald Trump Jr. has more of a "Roman" look, compared to Eric:

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## Jovialis

> Here is Augustus' haircolor according to the retored version of his painted statue. It looks like a light brown to me:


My hair color, back when I had longer hair. It looks darker when it is shorter. Either that, or the genes switched off, I was 19 in this photo, and haven't had long hair since.

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## Carlos

I have felt identified with Dacio or Decio when enlarging the photo it is blurred. I'll see who it is.


That of different skin tones does not mean anything to me in any sense but well I see that in more modern or multiracial countries that take it very up to date or give it more importance, here it is difficult to fit and export.

If everyone had the same skin tone it would be weird and abnormal, I would suspect them, mmmm

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## Dimanto Ruben

> Italians are heterogenous in terms of phenotype, even those from the same region, and even family. My brother looks different from me, and my sisters. But genetically, we are the same. Ironically, he is the most "northern", yet is the darkest. But so are many other groups, example of two brothers that look different:
> 
> Donald Trump Jr. has more of a "Roman" look, compared to Eric:


That is true indeed, though I think this is true in every family except extremely endogamous ones. I look a lot like my Italian father actually, even though my head-shape is longer and more similar to his father and he's a bit darker than me. My other full Italian half siblings look much more like their mom actually and usually people would think I'm fully Italian even though I'm half Dutch.

By the way these two guys look German.

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## Dimanto Ruben

> Here is Augustus' haircolor according to the retored version of his painted statue. It looks like a light brown to me:


Going by Pompeii's depictions of Roman men, they were much darker in complexion than their women  :Poh:

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## Dimanto Ruben

> Interesting comments made by the artist on his twitter page.
> 
> Turns out he wasn't trying to make Augustus blonde, but rather dirty-blonde leaning towards brown. He was actually trying to gray his hair due to his age, but the filter he used made it look blonder than it was supposed to be:


Augustus looks Italian imho.

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## Dimanto Ruben

> Using the neural-net tool Artbreeder, Photoshop and historical references, Daniel Voshart have created photoreal portraits of Roman Emperors. For this project, I have transformed, or restored (cracks, noses, ears etc.) 800 images of busts to make the 54 emperors of The Principate (27 BC to 285 AD). He posted about it on Medium and explained in detail how he recreated the face of each emperor one by one. The realism is absolutely amazing!



This one is very badly done. He looks more British now instead of Italian. Especially the mouth region is off as well as the eyes and ears.

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## Stuvanè

Appreciable attempt and rather realistic results in my opinion. You can see very current and common "Italian" faces among the ranks. Especially between Claudius and Nerva there are physiognomic traits found especially in central/northern Italy, from internal Lazio to go back to Umbria, Marche and Tuscany up to Romagna

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## Angela

> Appreciable attempt and rather realistic results in my opinion. You can see very current and common "Italian" faces among the ranks. Especially between Claudius and Nerva there are physiognomic traits found especially in central/northern Italy, from internal Lazio to go back to Umbria, Marche and Tuscany up to Romagna


I recognized that stretch of the emperors too; the remains of the heartland, perhaps. :)

There's definitely something subjective about what's going on. There's nothing written about the coloring of the hair of some of them, so I don't know why he chose to make them blonde. Also don't know how Vespasian, having seen numerous busts of him, turned out looking a bit too much like our American president LBJ. :)

Also, why on earth would he make Marcus Aurelius look admixed with Moor or something? Just because he was born in Spain? He came from a family of colonists; even if he had a bit of Spanish admixture he wouldn't turn out looking like that.

Part of it, perhaps, is the very nature of a program which "averages" the features. You're going to get a very "neutral", bland, not necessarily "real" look. When they average out the faces of Europeans by region you can barely tell them apart minus some of the East Europeans. 

Still, generally on the right track I think, and fun to look at...

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## Stuvanè

> I recognized that stretch of the emperors too; the remains of the heartland, perhaps. :)
> 
> There's definitely something subjective about what's going on. There's nothing written about the coloring of the hair of some of them, so I don't know why he chose to make them blonde. Also don't know how Vespasian, having seen numerous busts of him, turned out looking a bit too much like our American president LBJ. :)
> 
> Also, why on earth would he make Marcus Aurelius look admixed with Moor or something? Just because he was born in Spain? He came from a family of colonists; even if he had a bit of Spanish admixture he wouldn't turn out looking like that.
> 
> Part of it, perhaps, is the very nature of a program which "averages" the features. You're going to get a very "neutral", bland, not necessarily "real" look. When they average out the faces of Europeans by region you can barely tell them apart minus some of the East Europeans. 
> 
> Still, generally on the right track I think, and fun to look at...


You're right Angela.
In some examples the result is somewhat questionable. I agree on Marcus Aurelius or Adrianus, which have become really too exotic. (But I believe for the same reasons that the emperors whose Italic ancestry is known become automatically blond and pink in complexion...).


It's difficult to get rid of certain stereotypes :)

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## Carlos

https://es.euronews.com/2019/07/19/d...romano-adriano

Found a bust of Emperor Adriano very close to where he was born (Contains video)

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## Archetype0ne

> Italians are heterogenous in terms of phenotype, even those from the same region, and even family. My brother looks different from me, and my sisters. But genetically, we are the same. Ironically, he is the most "northern", yet is the darkest. But so are many other groups, example of two brothers that look different:
> 
> Donald Trump Jr. has more of a "Roman" look, compared to Eric:


Do we know their haplogroup?

I can see a similarity between Edit: Eric Trump ( Its obvious I dont know their names xD) nose and mine. Although we differ on the forehead, hairline, cheekbones and chin.

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## Angela

> Do we know their haplogroup?
> 
> I can see a similarity between Edit: Eric Trump ( Its obvious I dont know their names xD) nose and mine. Although we differ on the forehead, hairline, cheekbones and chin.


I believe I read somewhere that Trump is I1. Makes sense given his father's family came from Germany. The mother's line is from Scotland, I believe.

Interesting how both of them came out with certain "Roman" looking noses, but that doesn't come from Trump. Their mother is Czech.

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## Archetype0ne

> I believe I read somewhere that Trump is I1. Makes sense given his father's family came from Germany. The mother's line is from Scotland, I believe.
> 
> Interesting how both of them came out with certain "Roman" looking noses, but that doesn't come from Trump. Their mother is Czech.


I wonder if autosomal DNA contributes more to looks than YDNA. My intuition surely supports such line of thinking.

I agree they both have some semblance to the roman look, judging by busts and art.

I found this:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

Seems the Trumps as a line are not homogenous in their YDNA... for whatever reason. There is an I1 there, so you might be right though.

I wonder why you think their Roman looks come from their Czech side? Afaik neither Czech nor German were really influenced more than the other from Roman DNA, given they weren't part of the empire.

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## Jovialis

> I wonder if autosomal DNA contributes more to looks than YDNA. My intuition surely supports such line of thinking.
> 
> I agree they both have some semblance to the roman look, judging by busts and art.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
> 
> Seems the Trumps as a line are not homogenous in their YDNA... for whatever reason. There is an I1 there, so you might be right though.
> ...


I think what is considered to be classic "Roman" look, which can be found in many parts of Europe, i.e. prominent nose bridge, and chiseled facial features, comes from CHG via Yamnaya admixture. Which is why it can be found in populations that aren't associated with actual Roman settlement or occupation.

Example, General Michael Flynn:

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## Angela

> ... imho:


That's much better. I have no idea how the four busts shown above could produce Daniel Craig. :)

The artist didn't get the memo, I guess, that Republican Era Romans looked like Spaniards and North/Central Italians, not like Scandinavians. :)

Now, this baker from Bagnone isn't all that far off, imo. He would be called "biondo" btw. Different definitions in different places.

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## Angela

> I wonder if autosomal DNA contributes more to looks than YDNA. My intuition surely supports such line of thinking.
> 
> I agree they both have some semblance to the roman look, judging by busts and art.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
> 
> Seems the Trumps as a line are not homogenous in their YDNA... for whatever reason. There is an I1 there, so you might be right though.
> ...


I don't know where their noses "come from" in terms of lineage. I just meant that it doesn't look like Trump has that kind of nose, i.e. high nose bridge so it's almost a straight line from forehead to nose, or Roman "bump" half way down. 



As a young man I see a resemblance more to Eric than Donald Jr. except for the pigmentation. The nose looks "thicker" around the bridge, don't you think? Maybe he had it altered?



His parents:


It looks like the Roman "bump" came from Trump's father. Nice looking man; better looking than his son at the same time of life. 

It's hard to tell, but I don't think either of the sons got the nose from Ivana.

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## Ygorcs

> I wonder if autosomal DNA contributes more to looks than YDNA. My intuition surely supports such line of thinking.
> 
> I agree they both have some semblance to the roman look, judging by busts and art.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
> 
> Seems the Trumps as a line are not homogenous in their YDNA... for whatever reason. There is an I1 there, so you might be right though.
> ...


The entire Y chromosome is tiny, less than 2% of a male's genome, and most of it has nothing to do with physical features at all. I doubt it has even some minor but non-negligible influence on one's looks. There are lots of men who are the spitting image of their mothers.

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## Angela

> You're right Angela.
> In some examples the result is somewhat questionable. I agree on Marcus Aurelius or Adrianus, which have become really too exotic. (But I believe for the same reasons that the emperors whose Italic ancestry is known become automatically blond and pink in complexion...).
> 
> 
> It's difficult to get rid of certain stereotypes :)


Yes, Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, who was of his family, are the most egregiously wrong imo. 

Hadrian, who was of a colonial Italic/Hispanic family originally from Picenum winds up looking like an Arab, and Marcus Aurelius, born in Rome, not Spain as I erroneously said, looks Arab admixed. How that would have happened given it was years before the Muslim invasions is beyond me.

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## Carlos

Caligula had him as a partner in one of my first jobs, his family was from Jáen, reserved and sly. Marcus Aurelio has been a client of mine, he is Catalan and I find him walking many afternoons when I am in Catalonia.


Totally, it's them.

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## Archetype0ne

> I don't know where their noses "come from" in terms of lineage. I just meant that it doesn't look like Trump has that kind of nose, i.e. high nose bridge so it's almost a straight line from forehead to nose, or Roman "bump" half way down. 
> 
> 
> 
> As a young man I see a resemblance more to Eric than Donald Jr. except for the pigmentation. The nose looks "thicker" around the bridge, don't you think? Maybe he had it altered?
> 
> 
> 
> His parents:
> ...


Defitively not Ivana imo. Probably from their grandpa. Although there is a difference between Trump and his sons noses I still see similarities.
The biggest ones being that their nose is relatively thin, ie not bulky running down, long and a bit arching, ie not a straight line.





I think DT Juniors nose is closer to his grandfathers. While Erics is a mix between his gp and Trump.

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## Archetype0ne

Here is how I imagine/envision the roman nose:



The ratios between the forehead, brow, nose, cheekbones, chin and jaw are really specific when it comes to these busts from the Roman Era. I find them similar to the ratios used in some of the Classical Greek statues.

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## Jovialis

> Here is how I imagine/envision the roman nose:
> 
> 
> 
> The ratios between the forehead, brow, nose, cheekbones, chin and jaw are really specific when it comes to these busts from the Roman Era. *I find them similar to the ratios used in some of the Classical Greek statues.*


That is already considered to be a "Greek Nose".

Fredrick Trump, up thread has what would be traditionally considered a "Roman Nose".

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## Ailchu

Frederick Trumps nose is imo too straight for a roman nose. at least from the angle on that picture. i've got kind of a roman nose though my tip is not pointing down but it's got quite a hook. and i always imagine a roman eagles beak when i think of a roman nose.
and the nose shape is called aquiline after all.
edit:it looks roman here. even more roman than mine since the tip is pointing down. maybe it's becasue he is smiling. but it's a bit less hooked.

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## Archetype0ne

> That is already considered to be a "Greek Nose".
> 
> Fredrick Trump, up thread has what would be traditionally considered a "Roman Nose".


You are probably right. Although that image I found some 1-2 years ago googling Roman bust/statue/sculpture. Can not find the source right now even reverse image google searching.

So would this type of nose fall under Roman or Greek?




Although what I have in mind is the above nose, just a bit longer nostrils to point.

As for female version of the nose... here is this model I absolutely have a crush on. She is from Massachusets I think, could not find info about her ethnicity/parents.







I highly suspect she has Italian ancestry... can not verify/confirm tho.

Here is her instagram for better reference to her nose.

https://www.instagram.com/jessicaclements/?hl=en





Does she look Italian to you?

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## Angela

Well, a lot of Romans had quite different noses. I don't think that's the most common one at all.

Marcus Porcius Cato:


Scipio Africanus the elder:


Cicero:

Caesar:


Marius:



Sulla:


Pompei


Marc Antony


These were the most prominent men of their day. As far as their noses are concerned I'd say the most common trait was a high bridge and the sort of "bump" right below it, with Pompei being the exception.

I think you're confusing A "Grecian" nose and a "Roman" nose.

They didn't have that straight "Grecian" nose, which may have been just an idealized version of a nose even in Greece, used for every statue, but not necessarily on most people.

Romans, especially of that period, produced very realistic busts of their leaders, imo.

The most common "feature" imo was that distinctive very broad skull coupled with a tapering almost triangular face, and the small mouth.

Richard Armitage has a Roman nose in my opinion; Italian as well. :) If his eyes were different I'd definitely guess Italian.



Jovialis too has a Roman nose, although not as long. My son and father had it too, minus the slight dip right at the eyes.

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## Jovialis

> Frederick Trumps nose is imo too straight for a roman nose. at least from the angle on that picture. i've got kind of a roman nose though my tip is not pointing down but it's got quite a hook. and i always imagine a roman eagles beak when i think of a roman nose.
> and the nose shape is called aquiline after all.
> edit:it looks roman here. even more roman than mine since the tip is pointing down. maybe it's becasue he is smiling. but it's a bit less hooked.


I posted mine here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post609854

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## Archetype0ne

> Well, a lot of Romans had quite different noses. I don't think that's the most common one at all.
> 
> Marcus Porcius Cato:
> 
> 
> Scipio Africanus the elder:
> 
> 
> Cicero:
> ...


You are right. Blame my confusion to the similarities between Ancient Greek and Roman era art I have consumed... Their statues have a lot of similarities.

About the questions upthread, what do you think, does Jessica look Italian? What about the reconstructed nose... I see features of both Grecian and Roman. What would you classify the nose as?

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## Dimanto Ruben

I have a cousin who looks just like Scipio Africanus. One thing that is typically Italian are dimples on both ends of the lips. I also have this and many family members. I've noticed many Roman statues having it as well and they forgot to properly imitate it with the reconstruction attempts.

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## Carlos

Totally. I have also worked with him, I do not remember exactly if he came from Granada or Córdoba.

By the way in Jerez there are quite a few Romans-Romans I have had them sitting next to in the bus and I have even seen groups of young people in their twenties 4 or 5 and all of them were Romans, they probably didn't even know it, God raises them and they get together.

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## Angela

> You are right. Blame my confusion to the similarities between Ancient Greek and Roman era art I have consumed... Their statues have a lot of similarities.
> 
> About the questions upthread, what do you think, does Jessica look Italian? What about the reconstructed nose... I see features of both Grecian and Roman. What would you classify the nose as?


I'll reply on this thread as it seems the more appropriate place.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ty-by-the-nose

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## Carlos

If the Young Lady really is Nefertiti the busts of important personalities of antiquity could be idealized. In the case of the Roman emperors, I think that the one who would be the most idealized would be those of Augustus and Claudius, another version of Caligula that is out there, I think it is better than this one here where he is decanted towards Britain like the rest of the most frequented for the cinema.




In this ring of a Roman patrician, a portrait of the owner of the jewel seems to be seen.

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## Jovialis

> In this ring of a Roman patrician, a portrait of the owner of the jewel seems to be seen.


Fascinating!

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## Jovialis

Ludovisi Battle Sarcophagus

Some of the soldiers here exhibit the classic "Roman" nose, along with others. However, so do some of the Goths as well.

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## Carlos

http://loradelriotk.blogspot.com/201...o-augusto.html

Bust of Augustus that must have belonged to a statue found in Lora del Río (Seville), cohesive to the time of the emperor.

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## kingjohn

> Using the neural-net tool Artbreeder, Photoshop and historical references, Daniel Voshart have created photoreal portraits of Roman Emperors. For this project, I have transformed, or restored (cracks, noses, ears etc.) 800 images of busts to make the 54 emperors of The Principate (27 BC to 285 AD). He posted about it on Medium and explained in detail how he recreated the face of each emperor one by one. The realism is absolutely amazing!



wow very cool  :Good Job: 
augustus looks like a cross of this french actor 
https://www.fandango.com/people/thie...ermitte-400681
and putin  :Smile: 

p.s
even if not this actor has a roman look  :Thinking:

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## Aretas

Philip the Arab, Philip II, Caracalla, Geta, Elagabalus, and Severus Alexander have Arab ancestry. You can tell from their photos they have Middle Eastern features.

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## Carlos

> Philip the Arab, Philip II, Caracalla, Geta, Elagabalus, and Severus Alexander have Arab ancestry. You can tell from their photos they have Middle Eastern features.




Do you think Adriano looks like an Arab?

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## Aretas

His front profile photo does look Arab. However, his Roman busts don't.

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## kingjohn

> Philip the Arab, Philip II, Caracalla, Geta, Elagabalus, and Severus Alexander have Arab ancestry. You can tell from their photos they have Middle Eastern features.


given that carcalla and geta father septimus was *punic lybian paternally ( his mother was italian though)*
there is this option for there y haplogroups to be : j1, e-m81, e-v65 :Thinking: 
with the bigest chances for e-m81 .... :Smile: 
it is cool that you belong to e-m81 from jordan ....  :Good Job: 


p.s
yes some of the *late* roman emperors were from outside rome

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## Pax Augusta

> *There's definitely something subjective about what's going on*. *There's nothing written about the coloring of the hair of some of them, so I don't know why he chose to make them blonde*. Also don't know how Vespasian, having seen numerous busts of him, turned out looking a bit too much like our American president LBJ.


I completely agree 100%.

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## Aretas

The mother of Carcalla and Geta is Julia Domna, who was an Arab born in Emesa (modern day Homs) in Syria. Her sister Julia Maesa, who was married to a Syrian, is the grandmother of emperors Elagabalus and Severus Alexander.

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## Carlos

_I have done a little sociological survey_

*Who was Caracalla?

*A pirate
A moorish king

*Who was the most famous Roman emperor?

*I Claudio
Julius Caesar

*Who was the ugliest Roman emperor?*

Everyone

*Who was the baddest Roman emperor?

*Caligula because he killed his mother

*Which country did Rome love the most?

*Spain
Greece

*Which country did Rome hate the most?

*France
England

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## Salento

Caligula didn't kill his mother, she and his brother died in prison (credit to Tiberius)  :Sad:  

... Nero is the matricide  :Petrified:

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## Carlos

> Caligula didn't kill his mother, she and his brother died in prison (credit to Tiberius)  
> 
> ... Nero is the matricide


Time mixes things up. 


I had omitted the question but about Nero I asked:


*Was Nero really bad?*


It wasn't that bad but he started casting Christians to lions by increasing his circus shows more and more.

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## kingjohn

> The mother of Carcalla and Geta is Julia Domna, who was an Arab born in Emesa (modern day Homs) in Syria. Her sister Julia Maesa, who was married to a Syrian, is the grandmother of emperors Elagabalus and Severus Alexander.


I know carcalla and geta had syrian mom
I was speaking about there father septimus severus which his mom did have italian roman roots...  :Thinking: 
His mother's ancestors had moved from Italy to North Africa; they belonged to the gens Fulvia, an Italian patrician family that originated in Tusculum.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusculum

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## Angela

> His front profile photo does look Arab. However, his Roman busts don't.


Hadrian didn’t look anything like an Arab; it’s just this creator’s subjective interpretation. If you think you’re going to start t-rolling here I suggest you think twice.

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## Aaron1981

The modern Saudi prince is representative of "Arab", probably then and now. Eye shape, nose shape, overall facial shape is absolutely nothing like the vast majority of these Roman emperors. I can see some Middle Eastern look in a few, as well as definitely some African/North African, but the vast majority all have a generic west European look to them. Caligula looks most like how I imagine ancient Italians in north-central Italy to look.

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## Salento

> Time mixes things up. 
> I had omitted the question but about Nero I asked:
> *Was Nero really bad?*
> It wasn't that bad but he started casting Christians to lions by increasing his circus shows more and more.


Your scale of evil is different from mine,

Nero's mother (Agrippina the younger) was Caligula's sister and Claudio's 4th wife / niece, ... yep  :Startled: 

... so Caligula is Nero's uncle.

oops ... I went off topic, .. again 

Agrippina was the Matrix, a very interesting, goals oriented, ambitious and Powerful woman.

If she was born in our time, she would have ruled the World :)

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## Carlos

> Your scale of evil is different from mine,
> 
> Nero's mother (Agrippina the younger) was Caligula's sister and Claudio's 4th wife / niece, ... yep 
> 
> ... so Caligula is Nero's uncle.
> 
> oops ... I went off topic, .. again 
> 
> Agrippina was the Matrix, a very interesting, goals oriented, ambitious and Powerful woman.
> ...


The questions are mine, the answers are not, it is a survey of other people.

The world has already been ruled by another woman: Isabel l de Castilla

----------


## Angela

> Your scale of evil is different from mine,
> 
> Nero's mother (Agrippina the younger) was Caligula's sister and Claudio's 4th wife / niece, ... yep 
> 
> ... so Caligula is Nero's uncle.
> 
> oops ... I went off topic, .. again 
> 
> Agrippina was the Matrix, a very interesting, goals oriented, ambitious and Powerful woman.
> ...


Completely agree.

I also think Livia was formidable, and with the same Claudian lack of ethics. I deeply admire Antonia major.

Don’t you love how no matter how many busts are produced of the great men of the Republican Era, including Julius, the Nordicists all pick the most Northern European looking one they can find and persist in thinking the ancient Romans all looked like him? Amazing.

----------


## Salento

> Completely agree.
> 
> I also think Livia was formidable, and with the same Claudian lack of ethics. I deeply admire Antonia major.
> 
> Don’t you love how no matter how many busts are produced of the great men of the Republican Era, including Julius, the Nordicists all pick the most Northern European looking one they can find and persist in thinking the ancient Romans all looked like him? Amazing.


I think that's their way of being relevant, they don't like the idea that they could have been left out of such an important Empire,

... in a Sense it is gratifying to know that they want to be associated with our Ancestors :)

----------


## Angela

> I think that's their way of being relevant, they don't like the idea that they could have been left out of such an important Empire,
> 
> ... in a Sense it is gratifying to know that they want to be associated with our Ancestors :)


Couldn’t have said it better. :)

The Romans of the Republican Era whom they wanted so badly to claim were Southern Europeans. Nothing to do with them.End of story.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Appreciable attempt and rather realistic results in my opinion. You can see very current and common "Italian" faces among the ranks. Especially between Claudius and Nerva there are physiognomic traits found especially in central/northern Italy, from internal Lazio to go back to Umbria, Marche and Tuscany up to Romagna


I agree with you, but as we have already said elsewhere, this reconstruction work is not entirely reliable, there is a lot of subjective interpretation of the creator and his work is based on patently false sources (including Apricity, and what could be expected from Apricity?).

I don't know who Davide Cocci is but he has a lot of points here.

"Were Roman Emperors Blonde?" 

https://medium.com/@davieco/were-rom...e-2255ec77d123

----------


## Henrique

I don't know if the reconstructions were based on objective descriptions, but it is a very interesting job anyway.

----------


## Jovialis

> I agree with you, but as we have already said elsewhere, this reconstruction work is not entirely reliable, there is a lot of subjective interpretation of the creator and his work is based on patently false sources (including Apricity, and what could be expected from Apricity?).
> 
> I don't know who Davide Cocci is but he has a lot of points here.
> 
> "Were Roman Emperors Blonde?" 
> 
> https://medium.com/@davieco/were-rom...e-2255ec77d123


Great find, Pax



_To sum up, out of the 46 emperors for which we have a recorded physical description, as reported by H. V. Canter, only 4 can be described as having “fair hair”, of which one wasn’t naturally fair and used to dye his hair blonde (Commodus), one described as “flavium” was naturally blonde (Lucius Verus), Nero and Augustus described as “subflavum” were probably ligh brown as explained above.

_It is also good to see the Apricity is being called out for being a Neo-Nazi website by platforms like Medium.

----------


## Angela

> Great find, Pax
> 
> 
> 
> _To sum up, out of the 46 emperors for which we have a recorded physical description, as reported by H. V. Canter, only 4 can be described as having “fair hair”, of which one wasn’t naturally fair and used to dye his hair blonde (Commodus), one described as “flavium” was naturally blonde (Lucius Verus), Nero and Augustus described as “subflavum” were probably ligh brown as explained above.
> 
> _It is also good to see the Apricity is being called out for being a Neo-Nazi website by platforms like Medium.


What this points out in a dramatic way is how much false information is on the internet. Some Neo-Nazi at theapricity makes up a chart with blatantly false information, posts it on the internet, and people just accept it and create a whole picture gallery based on it. 

If the guy who created the one which is the subject of this thread is made aware of this, and isn't some Nordicist himself, he should change them. If, after being informed, he doesn't change them, then we have his measure. 

Our saying on this thread that there is no data from the time indicating all this blondeness, as I said upthread, doesn't reach enough people. 

When I think how many people believed posters from theapricity when they made all their protestations that they are Italian, or part Italian and are the antithesis of Nordicists, while pushing Nordicism with every post, well, it's enraging, as is the fact that people who knew who they really were and the agenda they were promoting, pretended to be unaware of it all.

----------


## ihype02

> It is also good to see the Apricity is being called out for being a Neo-Nazi website by platforms like Medium.


Racism towards Black people out of all in that site is enormous beyond point. I have a concrete example of one person just recently wishing cancer on Black people for simply living in his country, legally, and he didn't got banned until he wished cancer on 2 white members and only for severall days. He is not the first or the last to display this type of behaviour. 
Alt-right ideas such as holocaust denial, white supremacy and to a lesser extend nordicism are very wide speard in there.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...%99-is-a-Fable

----------


## Jovialis

> Racism towards Black people out of all in that site is enormous beyond point. I have a concrete example of one person just recently wishing cancer on Black people for simply living in his country, legally, and he didn't got banned until he wished cancer on 2 white members and only for severall days. He is not the first or the last to display this type of behaviour. 
> Alt-right ideas such as holocaust denial, white supremacy and to a lesser extend nordicism are very wide speard in there.
> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...%99-is-a-Fable


This kind of purile trash would be grounds for immediate banning here on Eupedia. As Apricity members continue to populate Anthrogenica, it further distinguishes Eupedia as one of the only respectable forums for archeogenetics.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Tbh as extreme as Eupedia is on banning people, I think Anthrogenica is even more extreme. It feels like half the forum is banned there. Also, doubt anyone could deny the Holocaust in Anthrogenica either without getting insta yeeted out of there. As for Apricity, I don't have an account, but from lurking, I fluctuate between cringing at their ethnocentric and often supremacist/fascist edginess and laughing at some idiotic arguments.

----------


## kingjohn

Make no mistake 
They are not crazy on jews there either
It is not only against blacks...🤔
They are not denay the holocoust
But they are happy it happned  :Wary: 
( from my experience as a jew there 
i was in this forum for few months)
As much as i didn't like that forum 
And experienced anti-semetic attack 
First in my life... 
Still i believe in the freedom of speech 
Even if i didn't liked the horrible way they think🤔

P.s 
But yes buttom line 
Eupedia is better than both apricity and anthrogenica

----------


## Jovialis

> Tbh as extreme as Eupedia is on banning people, I think Anthrogenica is even more extreme. It feels like half the forum is banned there. Also, doubt anyone could deny the Holocaust in Anthrogenica either without getting insta yeeted out of there. As for Apricity, I don't have an account, but from lurking, I fluctuate between cringing at their ethnocentric and often supremacist/fascist edginess and laughing at some idiotic arguments.


I don't think there is anything extreme about our moderation. Everyone that is banned, is for legitimate reasons.

----------


## Jovialis

The only thing that makes me cringe are smarmy hubblebraggarts.

----------


## Dorquest

When a Holocaust is brought up IMO all peoples suffering should be included. China lost 20,000,000 people at the hands of Imperial Japan. They too had horrible death camps. I think in Europe the total number who lost their lives is 12,000,000.

----------


## kingjohn

I never said we have a taboo monopol on suffering 
There are other tragedies/ holocoust ... 
( armenian genocide, african atlantic slave 
trade) 
Human beings can be a true monsters..

P.s 
And what happned in syria when asad
Killed 2 milion people of his own country
And part of it with gas...
Not for nothing i dont have kids 
Not to this world man...
No way :Thinking:

----------


## angeleyes2

> given that carcalla and geta father septimus was *punic lybian paternally ( his mother was italian though)*
> there is this option for there y haplogroups to be : j1, e-m81, e-v65
> with the bigest chances for e-m81 ....
> it is cool that you belong to e-m81 from jordan .... 
> 
> 
> p.s
> yes some of the *late* roman emperors were from outside rome


If they were marked as Syrian they would be Neolithic. E-M18 is likely from Natufian farmers. 
This is a real adaptation of the leaders

https://scontent.fgba1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...23&oe=5F642651

----------


## angeleyes2



----------


## angeleyes2

> I don't know where their noses "come from" in terms of lineage. I just meant that it doesn't look like Trump has that kind of nose, i.e. high nose bridge so it's almost a straight line from forehead to nose, or Roman "bump" half way down. 
> 
> 
> 
> As a young man I see a resemblance more to Eric than Donald Jr. except for the pigmentation. The nose looks "thicker" around the bridge, don't you think? Maybe he had it altered?
> 
> 
> 
> His parents:
> ...


That woman's features are maybe Armenian even though she is registered as being  a C Republic citizen. Clearly, the hair is bleached.

----------


## Angela

> That woman's features are maybe Armenian even though she is registered as being  a C Republic citizen. Clearly, the hair is bleached.


Everybody with a nose that has a tip that turns down is Near Eastern?

She doesn't look like any Armenian I've ever seen. Look at pictures of her as she got older. She couldn't be more Slavic in type.

Go through the whole thread. Lots of what people used to call Near Eastern noses sprinkled throughout Europe, even if it isn't the dominant shape for their country.

Oh, and you made some of the Emperors too dark. Verus was specifically described by contemporaries as having "natural" blonde hair and blue eyes, and yes, that would have been possible among the ancient Romans, even if uncommon. No reason for Marcus Aurelius to be so dark either.

----------


## angeleyes2

> Everybody with a nose that has a tip that turns down is Near Eastern?
> 
> She doesn't look like any Armenian I've ever seen. Look at pictures of her as she got older. She couldn't be more Slavic in type.
> 
> Go through the whole thread. Lots of what people used to call Near Eastern noses sprinkled throughout Europe, even if it isn't the dominant shape for their country.
> 
> Oh, and you made some of the Emperors too dark. Verus was specifically described by contemporaries as having "natural" blonde hair and blue eyes, and yes, that would have been possible among the ancient Romans, even if uncommon. No reason for Marcus Aurelius to be so dark either.
> 
> Almost everybody on this topic has some sort of personal agenda.


I know people from the C Republic and who have been there physically her look isn't typical at all. C Republic's are a East Germanics people, even Poles are more Slavic. Her look is something Semitic or whatever this is more typical though. 

https://www.beautiful-women-pedia.co...ra-nemcova.jpg


That was not my picture of the Romans, someone else made it I just knew the Roman elite were of a Mediterranean subset nothing ''British'' or blonde looking about the elite at all.

----------


## angeleyes2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZG1R9Q5uCs

----------


## kingjohn

> I know people from the C Republic and who have been there physically her look isn't typical at all. C Republic's are a East Germanics people, even Poles are more Slavic. Her look is something Semitic or whatever this is more typical though. 
> 
> https://www.beautiful-women-pedia.co...ra-nemcova.jpg
> 
> 
> That was not my picture of the Romans, someone else made it I just knew the Roman elite were of a Mediterranean subset nothing ''British'' or blonde looking about the elite at all.




Only agree with you 
On this the elite were not scandinavian looking
More likely med features...  :Cool V: 
All those are busts....
No one know how they realy looked like...  :Thinking: 
But simple logic and geography point to med look

----------


## angeleyes2

> Only agree with you 
> On this the elite were not scandinavian looking
> More likely med features... 
> All those are busts....
> No one know how they realy looked like... 
> But simple logic and geography point to med look


Agreed, nothing British about them at all they were from a Mediterranean subset. Probably a mixture of Alpines and Dinarics.

https://www.slaveplanet.net/index.ph...7y2ivxYyQdG-aY
Two of Trumps three wives, Ivana Zelníčková and Melania Knauss are from Eastern Europe , where many *Jews like John Kerry (Kohn) and Madeleine Albright (Jana Korbel) “converted” to Catholicism and started using Christian names Marla Maples despite supposedly being Christian keeps Shabbat, eats kosher, and studies Kabbalah*Trumps wives Ivana Zelnickova Melania Knauss and Marla Maples . Both* Ivana and Melania both have a certain Khazarian look*Ivana Zelníčková was born in the Moravian town of Zlín , Czechoslovakia, the daughter of Miloš *Zelníček, who was Czech, and Marie Francová. Moravia and Zlin have a long history of Jews If you drop the second e in Zelnicek you get the Jewish Zelnick*
Malenia Trump is certainly 100 percent Slavic though

----------


## Angela

> I know people from the C Republic and who have been there physically her look isn't typical at all. C Republic's are a East Germanics people, even Poles are more Slavic. Her look is something Semitic or whatever this is more typical though. 
> 
> https://www.beautiful-women-pedia.co...ra-nemcova.jpg
> 
> 
> That was not my picture of the Romans, someone else made it I just knew the Roman elite were of a Mediterranean subset nothing ''British'' or blonde looking about the elite at all.


How could I have missed how Semitic looking she is? :Grin: 



Petra Nemcova in real life, real hair, nose not photoshopped so half of it is gone. Are you a t-roll?


I could do the same with Bianca Balti





Maybe we should all just stick to politicians.

Mediterranean the early Romans were; that doesn't mean they were all dark. 

Claudio Marchisio-half southern Italian, btw. Coloring is perhaps "Augustus" like...


Ignazio Abate


Actually "blonde" Italian man...a cousin. Perhaps a Verus type coloring.


You can certainly find the same thing among Spaniards.

Fine, you didn't make it. The point remains. Where you have contemporary accounts and you DON'T use them you have an agenda. Where you don't have contemporary accounts and you make it up according to your agenda it's unreliable.

Just play it straight, everybody.

----------


## angeleyes2

> How could I have missed how Semitic looking she is?
> 
> 
> 
> Petra Nemcova had half her nose chopped off. She's typical of nowhere. Posting her would be like my posting Bianca Balti and saying she's the typical Italian woman. Please...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They both got plastic surgery common among Ashkenazis I guess. Her daughter did too who looks similarly Khazarian  :Laughing: 




Malenia Trump looks typically Slavic / Slovenian just compare the two eyes and nose shape 



Without airbrushed glossy magazine covers. The above link explained how they ''Christianize'' their names 



Not my contemporary accounts. Some people have different opinions, it's called life. I find it easier to believe that the elite of Roman generals were Mediterranean and didn't have a uniform of blonde hair and blue eyes and were British looking. 

This isn't about the percentage of modern Italians with blonde hair and blue eyes which proves nothing apart from the fact that some South Europeans can have blonde hair and blue eyes.

----------


## kingjohn

honestly i think totti has a roman look 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Totti



p.s
angela you might have a point you could be southern european with light hair and eyes  :Thinking: 
abate has realy a roman face and his blond hair .....
do roman sources say all emperors were blond or only verus ?

----------


## angeleyes2

> honestly i think totti has a roman look 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Totti


I think magazines and celeb pics airbrush and white wash people, their different ethnic groups and their physical traits.

----------


## Angela

> honestly i think totti has a roman look 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Totti
> 
> 
> 
> p.s
> angela you might have a point you could be southern european with light hair and eyes 
> abate has realy a roman face and his blond hair .....
> do roman sources say all emperors were blond or only verus ?


The only word for "natural" "real" blonde that the contemporaries used was for Verus.

A few others were described with a word meaning "fairish", light brown/dark blonde, including Augustus. It's all detailed in the site Pax posted upthread, along with who among the contemporaries of these people said it and about which emperors. 

We also know that most of the Republican inhabitants of Rome were genetically between northern Italians and Spaniards so obviously just from that, logically, some of these Republicans were "fair haired and eyed". Not, seemingly, the majority. It's always the unusual which is mentioned, not the common.

We also have data from these Republicans.

He's just another t-roll; this time an anti-Semitic one.

----------


## Angela

angleeyes2, you missed the real Petra. :)



Yes, every person in eastern Europe with a downward pointing tip is a secret Jew.

Goodbye to another anti-Semitic Slavicist t-roll.

----------


## kingjohn

> The only word for "natural" "real" blonde that the contemporaries used was for Verus.
> 
> A few others were described with a word meaning "fairish", light brown/dark blonde, including Augustus. It's all detailed in the site Pax posted upthread, along with who among the contemporaries of these people said it and about which emperors. 
> 
> We also know that most of the Republican inhabitants of Rome were genetically between northern Italians and Spaniards so obviously just from that, logically, some of these Republicans were "fair haired and eyed". Not, seemingly, the majority. It's always the unusual which is mentioned, not the common.
> 
> We also have data from these Republicans.
> 
> He's just another t-roll; this time an anti-Semitic one.



you think he is an apricity refugge ?

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE=Angela;610922]angleeyes2, you missed the real Petra. :)



Yes, every person in eastern Europe with a downward pointing tip is a secret Jew.

Goodbye to another anti-Semitic Slavicist t-roll.
Strangely, we share the same face shape, forehead and chin. Even the eyes are not dissimilar, but hers are too close together. Isn't that supposed to be a "Semitic" or Near Eastern trait? :) Ditto for the full lipped mouth. I thought Northern Europeans were supposed to have small mouths. That's' what they considered beautiful for centuries, along with an oval face. You people don't read enough history.

Fwiw, I don't think that's a picture of an outstandingly beautiful woman. I do envy her mouth, though.

More than anything else models are chosen for their weird and rare bodies, often with the breasts then augmented. In the industry there were always a lot of rumors that some of them have weird chromosomal patterns in terms of x and y. Maybe one of the reasons so many never have children.. In recent decades they also deliberately DON'T choose women who have "perfect", "harmonious" faces. They say it's because they're more "interesting". I just think they're uglier.

----------


## kingjohn

> Strangely, we share the same face shape, forehead and chin. Even the eyes are not dissimilar, but hers are too close together. Isn't that supposed to be a "Semitic" or Near Eastern trait? :)
> 
> Fwiw, I don't think that's a picture of an outstandingly beautiful woman.



i think she is pretty  :Thinking: 
not miss universe but defiently pretty  :Smile: 
i was i czech republik with my brothers few years ago 
woman there are indeed there pretty generally speaking  :Thinking: 
and they drink to much bear 
like i drink water  :Laughing:

----------


## Archetype0ne

> i think she is pretty 
> not miss universe but defiently pretty 
> i was i czech republik with my brothers few years ago 
> woman there are indeed there pretty generally speaking 
> and they drink to much bear 
> like i drink water


Can you blame them? Their beer is on another level. Becherovka is nice as well if you managed to try.

On another note... Everyone says Czech women are beautiful... and maybe it is a thing of people hyping up something too much so when you see it for yourself you feel let down... but imo Czech women despite being pretty on average have got nothing on... say for example Bulgarian women :).

Also... Why does everything have to fall as either Semite phenotype or Nordic phenotype (?)... there is a whole rainbow in between. I know some Swedish women who after a couple of weeks on a Southern European vacation get a gorgeous tan and look really similar to the minor, light Balkan phenotype (light eyes, blonde/fair hair). I have to admit they are taller on average tho, and with sharper features/less round face/ more pronounced jaws.

My point is that even these supposedly really light phenotype Nordic people after a couple of weeks of proper tanning (not burning up a skin rash) look "similar" to Southern Europeans in skin tone. And their eye/hair phenotype is not absent from Southern Europe to begin with. Personally only their morphology gives them away in Southern Europe.

----------


## kingjohn

> Can you blame them? Their beer is on another level. Becherovka is nice as well if you managed to try.
> 
> On another note... Everyone says Czech women are beautiful... and maybe it is a thing of people hyping up something too much so when you see it for yourself you feel let down... but imo Czech women despite being pretty on average have got nothing on... *say for example Bulgarian women* :).
> 
> Also... Why does everything have to fall as either Semite phenotype or Nordic phenotype (?)... there is a whole rainbow in between. I know some Swedish women who after a couple of weeks on a Southern European vacation get a gorgeous tan and look really similar to the minor, light Balkan phenotype (light eyes, blonde/fair hair). *I have to admit they are taller on average tho, and with sharper features/less round face/ more pronounced jaws.*
> 
> My point is that even these supposedly really light phenotype Nordic people after a couple of weeks of proper tanning (not burning up a skin rash) look "similar" to Southern Europeans in skin tone. And their eye/hair phenotype is not absent from Southern Europe to begin with. Personally only their morphology gives them away in Southern Europe.



agree on bulgarian woman was in sofia 
very pretty indeed  :Cool V: 
i personally less attracted to woman with sharp features 
pronounced jaw ( dolf lundgren jaw )
but it is a matter of taste  :Laughing: 
on skin tone agree many sweeds can get tan like southern europeans .... :Thinking:

----------


## Angela

> i think she is pretty 
> not miss universe but defiently pretty 
> i was i czech republik with my brothers few years ago 
> woman there are indeed there pretty generally speaking 
> and they drink to much bear 
> like i drink water


We don't disagree; attractive, pretty, but not classically beautiful or just drop dead gorgeous whether "classical looking or not". A lot of models and actresses used to be classically beautiful.


Candid shot of a young Elizabeth Taylor...


Marilyn Monroe:

----------


## kingjohn

[QUOTE=Angela;610927]


> angleeyes2, you missed the real Petra. :)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, every person in eastern Europe with a downward pointing tip is a secret Jew.
> 
> Goodbye to another anti-Semitic Slavicist t-roll.
> Strangely, we share the same face shape, forehead and chin. Even the eyes are not dissimilar, but hers are too close together. Isn't that supposed to be a "Semitic" or Near Eastern trait? :) Ditto for the full lipped mouth. I thought Northern Europeans were supposed to have small mouths. That's' what they considered beautiful for centuries, along with an *oval face*. You people don't read enough history.
> 
> ...



she have oval face in the picture you posted 
(oval type the perfect for woman less perfect for man i have oval face  :Rolleyes: )
her jaw look like the clssical slavic one in this photo 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra_...nes_2018_2.jpg

----------


## Angela

Why do you think it's a particularly Slavic trait? I'd say it's northern European but can show up in other groups. 

Grace Kelly: stunningly beautiful in her youth, and still lovely in middle age, but she looks like she could crack walnuts with those jaws. :)




She was half German for what it's worth.

I'm not saying this to be mean or catty. I have a pretty strong jaw too.

Gisele Buendchen



Honestly, in a lot of her pictures I don't even think she looks pretty.

It's all the big international models nowadays, though, nothing particular to one ethnicity.

----------


## kingjohn

i dont know 
my mother also have this jaw and she probably got from her mom 
so i thought it is was slavic trait .... :Thinking: 
gisele Buendchen is maybe not classical beauty but she is hot  :Smile: 
she is german brazilian from south brazil

----------


## Jovialis

> 


It is clear from the article posted back thread that the color of their hair and eyes is unknown, with the exception of 4 emperors.

----------


## Carlos

I have consulted my respondents and they tell me that there was only one emperor with light blonde hair, he was also light skinned and even blue eyes, but the hair was not straight, they made him some curls although it was not very thick hair, thin face towards the chin and sharp nose.


There may have been some other light brown and normal-looking emperors, as we see in the West that beige skin color. They tell me that they were not dark or super light, so I understand what the usual color is for us in the West.

----------


## Joey37

My maternal grandfather was known for his strong jaw, still pronounced among his great-grandchildren (like my nephew), and he was 100% English, well, mixed with Danish Viking, as most of his ancestors came from the East Midlands in the Danelaw. So it is true certain features like nose or jaw can be pronounced in a line of descent, fwiw I don't think Hadrian's portrait is Arab at all, to me he looks very southern Spanish, Andalusian specifically.

----------


## Carlos

> My maternal grandfather was known for his strong jaw, still pronounced among his great-grandchildren (like my nephew), and he was 100% English, well, mixed with Danish Viking, as most of his ancestors came from the East Midlands in the Danelaw. So it is true certain features like nose or jaw can be pronounced in a line of descent, fwiw I don't think Hadrian's portrait is Arab at all, to me he looks very southern Spanish, Andalusian specifically.


If this recreation can be very Andalusian, also of any other place in Spain since the only difference between Andalusians and the rest of Spain is that Andalusians are more handsome. The recreation of Hadrian in the set of Emperors from the first post of this thread would be very atypical in Andalusia or the rest of Spain. 

With the fact that the Moors were in Andalusia there is a lot of legend, clichés and mythology. I have seen people in the forums posing as Andalusian with distances with Iberia of 80. Some people believe that because the Moors were there, anything can trickle down to Andalusia and not. My own mother in 70´years when she was giving birth in Barcelona the Catalan nurse felt her and without the doctor being there she told her that she had a three-headed phenomenon and it was that my sister was born by feet. But what goes, we are very normal that yes more handsome.









He reminded me of this Andalusian actor Dani Rovira I have even Juan Pardo a Galician singer with an Andalusian ancestor from Cádiz





I also see this recreation very simple, it is not recognizable to me either.




I don't know what's going on with Adriano and some reenactments.



Some of Adriano's so exotic recreations would almost be easier to find in the United States because of its enormous diversity than in Andalusia.

----------


## halfalp

> Suetonius never met Augustus!
> 
> ... older:


He has in both photos an extremely Frenchy face. I can imagine it with a right earring. Looking like a french rockstar. Like a fusion between Alain Delon and Bertrand Cantat.

----------


## Angela

> He has in both photos an extremely Frenchy face. I can imagine it with a right earring. Looking like a french rockstar. Like a fusion between Alain Delon and Bertrand Cantat.


Well, Alain Delon had a Corsican grandmother...

I still don't really see it though.



Maybe an uglier version of Stefano Casiraghi?



The skull shape and face shape is right but the nose is wrong.


One of the sons have a bit of it too.



I agree with Carlos. All of the recreations of Hadrian are terrible. They all make him look like an Arab, which he didn't.

----------


## real expert

I don‘t understand all the fuss about blond hair and Romans. It’s a matter of fact that the majority of native Romans were not blond-haired and blue-eyed folks, but they were not as swarthy as some people want them to be, either. Referring to blond and blue-eyed Romans as Nordic is ridiculous. However, that some people pretend that it's impossible for native Romans to be naturally blond or red-haired is also absurd. I read plenty complains all over the internet that the Roman emperors were looking too “white“ or too “Northern European“ despite many of them being depicted with a beige skin tone. Anyway, what made Germanic people so remarkable in the eyes of Romans, Greeks or Arabs who encountered them is the fact that they were nearly uniformly or largely light-haired, very pale and blue-eyed people. Plus Roman sources talk about the white hair of the Germanics. So some of them were not just blond, golden- haired but had platinum, whitish blond hair too. In my opinion even the blond Romans didn‘t display this very light blond hair color. The bottom line is that blond or red-haired Romans were not very common, nevertheless they were not totally uncommon either.

Besides, there are information from ancient sources about the physical appearance, hair and eye color of the emperors Commodus, Nero, Augustus, Lucius Verus, Caligula and General Sulla:

Plutarch's description of Sulla.




> „His personal appearance, in general, is given by his statues; but the gleam of his gray eyes, which was terribly sharp and powerful, was rendered even more fearful by the complexion of his face. This was covered with coarse blotches of red, interspersed with white. For this reason, they say, his surname was given him because of his complexion, and it was in allusion to this that a scurrilous jesterat Athens made the verse:—„
> 
> 
> "Sulla is a mulberry sprinkled o'er with meal."


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...es/Sulla*.html


Discription of Lucius Verus:




> Verus was well-proportioned in person and genial of expression. His beard was allowed to grow long, almost in the style of the barbarians; he was tall, and stately in appearance, for his forehead projected somewhat over his eyebrows. 7 He took such pride in his yellow hair, it is said, that he used to sift gold-dust on his head in order that his hair, thus brightened, might seem even yellower. 8He was somewhat halting in speech, a reckless gambler, ever of an extravagant mode of life, and in...



http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...us_Verus*.html


In addition to that Latin cognomes indicate that there were Italics, native Romans that were blondes or redheads. 
Ahenobarbus for example, was a cognomen used by a plebeian branch of the gens Domitia in the late Roman Republic and early Empire. The name means"red-beard"(literally, "bronze-beard") in Latin. Wiki. Neros‘father was called Ahenobarbus.


The name Rufus is a boy's name of Latin origin meaning"red-head".There is another Roman family name Flavius meaning "golden"or "yellow-haired". 
from Latin flavus "yellow, golden".

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## real expert

Here the reconstructed famous Augustus statue based on the remnant of the original pigmentation on the marble. On this statue Augustus looks like a ginger, redhead.







The reconstruction of ara pacis based on original pigmentation. Here Augustus appears to have blond hair.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/hen-ma...n/photostream/

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0f/64/f3/0f64f38c044c9d878958aeb52c49bae8.jpg






other members of the Royal family. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hen-ma...n/photostream/


https://www.flickr.com/photos/hen-ma...n/photostream/


Clips in Italian about the reconstructed original colors of ara pacis. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkzvQs6dRJI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkzvQs6dRJI



Besides, I asked Latin teachers, and they said that word "subflavo" in Latin can mean light or dark blond or red. So context and further explanation are needed to know exactly whether the term sublavo means red- haired or blond.

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## Jovialis

> Here the reconstructed famous Augustus statue based on ther remnant of the original pigmentation on the marble. On this statueAugustus looks like a ginger, redhead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reconstruction of ara pacis based on original pigmentation. Here Augustus appears to have blond hair.
> ...


I think Augustus was about as _subflavum_ as I was:

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## Carlos

I have always been clear that the emperors or the elite were not from northern Europe, why or how, who is going to believe something like that. What's more, I even think that some family of emperors had a lot to keep quiet about and hide about their origins and some other issues before they got to where they arrived.

On the pigmentation of the statue of Augustus, the hair had to be brown and in the statue perhaps they wanted to pay homage or identification with Mars in the person of the emperor himself, intensifying the hair towards red.

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## Cato

The romans were mostly Central European actually according to Moots paper...R1b and 30% circa steppe 

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## Angela

> The romans were mostly Central European actually according to Moots paper...R1b and 30% circa steppe 
> 
> Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk


Ethnicity is not determined by ydna. Central Europeans are close to 50% steppe, not 30%. 

My father was R1b-U152, like most men in his area. Most men in his area are from 25-30% steppe. Fwiw he also had fairish hair and green eyes. They plot right where they should, north central Italy and nowhere near Central Europeans.

Did you ever actually read the Moots paper? Two of the Republican Era Romans plot with Southern Italians, and the rest of the "Roman area" ancients of the Republic plot between Spain and Northern Italy, NOT ANYWHERE NEAR Central Europe. So stop talking nonsense on a serious site. 

@Real Expert,

The topic under discussion was the photo "reconstruction" of the EMPERORS, not Sulla or the other few prominent Romans who were described as blonde. The reconstruction of the emperors is FALSE, because it is not based on contemporary reports but on a chart created by someone at theapricity who in turn got it from a report written in 1938 by some Nazi propagandist who based it on wishful thinking. 

From contemporary reports only one was "blonde" as we would describe it: Lucius Verus. Three others had fairish hair, two in the early period. This was all documented above in a link to an analysis. Perhaps people should re-read it. Now please count how many of the early emperors were depicted as "blonde". CLEARLY incorrect.

Then we get one where everyone is "browned" up. Hadrian, who had a very Italian or Spanish or even Balkan looking face in modern terms winds up looking like an Arab. It's ridiculous.

This is all just proof that this "hobby" is crawling with people with agendas who couldn't do an objective analysis of something if their lives depended on it.

Fwiw, I pointed out that Sulla was famously blonde. The Claudians also were supposed to have some fair haired people among them. What people don't seem to understand is that the unusual is what is described. 

Then as now there were/are some fair-haired inhabitants of the Italian peninsula, i.e. dark blonde/light brown hair. They are a minority. IT WAS NOT AND IS NOT Central Europe. I don't know how many of the ancients had light eyes. It's rarely talked about by contemporaries. Lucius' blue eyes are mentioned, as are Caesar's "black eyes". Today, blue eyes appear sometimes in southern Italy, not infrequently at all in Northern Italy. 

It doesn't matter. That doesn't make someone Central European.

The definition of Southern European, which the Republican inhabitants of Rome certain were autosomally, might indeed be 20-30% steppe. No one is denying it.

As to cultural achievements, the Romans improved upon and then spread innovations which they adopted from the Near East directly, or from the Greeks who in turn had adopted them from the Near East. Sorry, nothing to do with steppe people. The language is steppe, SOME of the religion is steppe, some of the clientage part of the culture is steppe etc., but not the things which made them great.

You guys, and the Nazis, and the late 19th century anthropologists have been proved completely wrong by the science of modern genetics. This cultural appropriation has come to stop. Ancient Rome had nothing to do with Northern Europe except to try to keep it at bay.

End of story.

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## Cato

They plot close to North Italy because they had neolithic Italian EEF admixture but a great part of their ancestry was Indo-European from Central Europe.. Am I wrong? 

Modern Italians are more or less the same genetically, Bergamo and Tuscan are 50-60% LN BA Europeans in Haak 2015 study.. 

I'm not saying that they looked like Germans 

I hate nazis ;) 

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## Jovialis

The Iron age & Republican Romans do not look like central Europeans.

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## Angela

> The Iron age & Republican Romans do not look like central Europeans.


Honestly, don't you get tired of having to repeat the same things over and over again? I sure do.

Of course the Italics admixed with the local more "farmer" like population, but they were already admixed with the same kind of people before they arrived. 

I highly doubt the arriving Italics were "pure" steppe people when they set foot on the Italian peninsula.

No one is denying they had some steppe ancestry. Everyone in Europe has some steppe ancestry. We've known that since Haak et al. The point is that the Italics and then the following Republican Era inhabitants of central Italy had nowhere near the level of steppe ancestry that Germanics of the time possessed.

The development of the Roman Empire had nothing to do with holy Germanic Aryans arriving in Italy and creating a great civilization. 

I don't know why this is difficult to comprehend.

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## real expert

> Ethnicity is not determined by ydna. Central Europeans are close to 50% steppe, not 30%. 
> 
> 
> @Real Expert,
> 
> The topic under discussion was the photo "reconstruction" of the EMPERORS, not Sulla or the other few prominent Romans who were described as blonde. The reconstruction of the emperors is FALSE, because it is not based on contemporary reports but on a chart created by someone at theapricity who in turn got it from a report written in 1938 by some Nazi propagandist who based it on wishful thinking........



Sorry Angela in all respect but Sueton, Pliny, Plutarch and other ancient Roman historians were not Nordicists. Plus I didn't quote the apricity site but other sites who use primary sources. Furthermore, I brought up Sulla because he was a native Roman like some Roman emperors were. Please be fair I wrote that Romans were not Nordic and mostly brunettes and nowhere did I wrote they were Central European. With that being said some could pass by their phenotype in Central Europe, like some Brits could pass in Southern Europe. It's not like that Northern and Southern Europeans belong to different races. I showed reconstructions of Augustus statue based on original colors and explained based on Latin teachers what the term subflavo means. For instance, the Ara Pacis Augustae color reconstruction was made by ITALIAN experts and not Nazis. Seriously I don't understand, what's wrong with blond- haired Romans? Why is blond hair that existed in Northern Europe and to a much lesser degree in Southern Europe prior to Nazis always connected to them? 

Anyway, please stop lumping me in one group with Nordicists. I'm not a Nordicist in any shape, form or fashion and anyone who reads my comments can see that. However, this a thread about the reconstructed looks of the emperors since we don't have their human remains, all we can do is speculate or give educated guesses. I just wanted to bring some balance into that discussion. There are people who claim all native Romans, including the emperors were brown-skinned, olive people with jet black hair and eyes who look more like Northern Africans and Middle Easterners than any Central Europeans and there are others who claim that native Romans were Nordic.

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## Cato

IMO Light traits among Romans and present day Italians are due mostly to this Central European/Indoeuropean (Urnfield?) influx.. That's what I wanted to say


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## real expert

> IMO Light traits among Romans and present day Italians are due mostly to this Central European/Indoeuropean (Urnfield?) influx.. That's what I wanted to say
> 
> 
> Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk



Half of the ancestry of the Italics came from Central European Bell Beaker people. So the genetic connections Italics, Latins/early Romans had with Central Europe was via Beaker folks.

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## Jovialis

> Honestly, don't you get tired of having to repeat the same things over and over again? I sure do.
> 
> Of course the Italics admixed with the local more "farmer" like population, but they were already admixed with the same kind of people before they arrived. 
> 
> I highly doubt the arriving Italics were "pure" steppe people when they set foot on the Italian peninsula.
> 
> No one is denying they had some steppe ancestry. Everyone in Europe has some steppe ancestry. We've known that since Haak et al. The point is that the Italics and then the following Republican Era inhabitants of central Italy had nowhere near the level of steppe ancestry that Germanics of the time possessed.
> 
> The development of the Roman Empire had nothing to do with holy Germanic Aryans arriving in Italy and creating a great civilization. 
> ...


It is tiring, but I will keep repeating myself, and repost the same charts, excerpts, and studies, one hundred thousand times if that is what it takes to repudiate these falsehoods.

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## Angela

> Sorry Angela in all respect but Sueton, Pliny, Plutarch and other ancient Roman historians were not Nordicists. Plus I didn't quote the apricity site but other sites who use primary sources. Furthermore, I brought up Sulla because he was a native Roman like some Roman emperors were. Please be fair I wrote that Romans were not Nordic and mostly brunettes and nowhere did I wrote they were Central European. With that being said some could pass by their phenotype in Central Europe, like some Brits could pass in Southern Europe. It's not like that Northern and Southern Europeans belong to different races. I showed reconstructions of Augustus statue based on original colors and explained based on Latin teachers what the term subflavo means. For instance, the Ara Pacis Augustae color reconstruction was made by ITALIAN experts and not Nazis. Seriously I don't understand, what's wrong with blond- haired Romans? Why is blond hair that existed in Northern Europe and to a much lesser degree in Southern Europe prior to Nazis always connected to them? 
> 
> Anyway, please stop lumping me in one group with Nordicists. I'm not a Nordicist in any shape, form or fashion and anyone who reads my comments can see that. However, this a thread about the reconstructed looks of the emperors since we don't have their human remains, all we can do is speculate or give educated guesses. I just wanted to bring some balance into that discussion. *There are people who claim all native Romans, including the emperors were brown-skinned, olive people with jet black hair and eyes who look more like Northern Africans and Middle Easterners than any Central Europeans** and there are others who claim that native Romans were Nordic*.


No need to get excited. I take you at your word. 

As for your last sentence (bolded), I completely agree. I said basically the same thing when I said that both sets of reconstructions were incorrect. 

I brought up theapricity because one of the links above shows that the first "artist" or reconstructor used a chart created by theapricity based on a 1938 paper by some Nazi "race scientist". I didn't mean to imply that's where you got your information. The fact remains that based on the contemporary descriptions which have come down to us only two of the early emperors were described as fair, not the whole line which is so depicted.

And I myself, as I mentioned have posted here about the descriptions of Sulla, and there are some about the Claudian gens as well. 

The point is that the ancient Romans were not a "fair" people as a whole, just as not even northern Italians today could be described as predominantly "fair". It's a minority trait on the Italic peninsula and apparently has been for a very long time. Neither were they Arabic looking, i.e. the depictions of Hadrian for example. 

That's all. 

The old stories have been proved to have been a lie, as the old stories about the Mycenaeans were fantasy. 

Ancient genetics is a powerful tool for setting the record straight.

And before you think I have something against fair haired people, my beloved father and my beloved aunts and uncles were all fair, that or red haired. My mother was a dark haired, dark eyed, typical Mediterranean type, and I adored her, and I've been in love for decades with a man who if he grew a mustache and beard might have been stopped at airports in the years right after 9/11. Imo, by the chance blending of traits from both parts of his family he could pass for Iranian I think. So, I have no "favorites", no team for which I'm rooting. I'm just trying to be objective from the evidence we have, both historical and genetic.

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## Ygorcs

> The romans were mostly Central European actually according to Moots paper...R1b and 30% circa steppe 
> 
> Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk


Excuse me, but R1b and circa 30% steppe? So basically modern North Italian or modern Spaniard-like, right? And those were _some_ of the early Italic samples, not all of them. In my opinion early Italics who arrived as far south as Latium were Bell Beaker-descending people (therefore already ~40-60% EEF themselves) who had been absorbing even more EEF people along the long journey from their initial homeland (probably IMO somewhere in the broad zone between Northeastern Italy and Austria and Hungary or thereabouts). Therefore, I'd be surprised if they were any more than 35-40% steppe from the start, which honestly makes them at most something French-like. They would also have a higher ANF:WHG ratio than most modern Central Europeans, with the possible exception of some Swiss people. And I'm talking about Proto-Italic people. The Romans from the time they were really becoming an advanced civilization under very strong Etruscan influence were probably and increasingly even more southern-shifted. That mixed origin is partly what caused Romans to have such varied looks.

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## Cato

I didn't say that they were 100% Central European but that a good part of their ancestry came from there, i was wrong when I said mostly it's more like 50%. Obviously they plot with Southern Europeans because they were admixed with the local EEF

And I believe that bronze age Central Europeans were darker than modern day Central European because they lacked Germanic admixture

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## real expert

> The modern Saudi prince is representative of "Arab", probably then and now.


Not really since the Saudi prince Mohammed bin Salman looks SSA admixed. Arabs with the classical Arabic phenotype have sharper and finer features than him and are more gracile built. In my opinion, the Saudi Prince has rather a Northern African vibe. Besides, the photo-real portraits of Philip the Arab and his son turned out very well. 
I have seen Lebanese, Iraqi, Syrian and even peninsular Arabs who strongly resemble Philip on this portrait. His son has the typical Levantine look.

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## real expert

Dan Voshart is now virtue signalling like crazy and demonstrating his wokeness. He stated Black lives matter on Twitter and updated the photo-real portraits of Roman emperors and depicted several emperors including Hadrian with SSA skin tones. He depicts Severus Alexander who was Syrian and even Hadrian with dark brown skin in order to counter white supremacy and show diversity. The thing is that Severus looks like a Somali and not like a Syrian that he was. Truly pathetic when people can‘t keep their ideology, emotions and politics out of their work for the sake of objectivity and professionalism. Voshart claims that Septimus Severus was black and arrogantly dismissed the complaints of North Africans and Middle Easterners who try to educate him about the fact that their historical people were not dark-brown folks but looked like them. He told them to deal with it and insisted on Septimius being black. So disrespecting and distorting the history of Non-European people is fine as long it happens in the name of wokeness and anti-white supremacy.







Septimius was black according to Voshart on twitter, and he justifies making Macrinus and his son looking dark- brown cause he think he was whitewashed.




https://twitter.com/tonyapc42/status...02486221139968

https://twitter.com/dvoshart/status/1296664860563058693

https://twitter.com/tonyapc42/status...02486221139968


https://twitter.com/dvoshart/status/...136193/photo/1

https://twitter.com/dvoshart/status/1296664872357367814


On Voshart's twitter account one woman wrote Italians can't naturally and genetically display white skin like Northern Europeans. It's getting ridiculous now. I think Voshart needs someone who talks some sense into him.

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## Angela

^^His work is a complete joke.

These men are Syrians too, and I have a hunch that before the Saudi tribes moved in after Islam swept that part of the world, there were a lot more Syrians who looked like that.



The Alawites kept themselves apart.

It's as Melanie Phillips said on my link on the election thread: facts no longer matter; only feelings. So if it makes us feel good to make the early Emperors more "northern" looking we'll do it, and if it makes us feel good to make some Emperors look SSA admixed then we'll do it.

It's all to create a better world, didn't you know?

The Jacobins are taking over.

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## Carlos

Which of the three images do I best fit in ancient Rome? Con las 3, con 2, con ninguna? The application does it but the catharsis is mine.

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## Pax Augusta

> Dan Voshart is now virtue signalling like crazy and demonstrating his wokeness. He stated Black lives matter on Twitter and updated the photo-real portraits of Roman emperors and depicted several emperors including Hadrian with SSA skin tones. He depicts Severus Alexander who was Syrian and even Hadrian with dark brown skin in order to counter white supremacy and show diversity. The thing is that Severus looks like a Somali and not like a Syrian that he was. Truly pathetic when people can‘t keep their ideology, emotions and politics out of their work for the sake of objectivity and professionalism. Voshart claims that Septimus Severus was black and arrogantly dismissed the complaints of North Africans and Middle Easterners who try to educate him about the fact that their historical people were not dark-brown folks but looked like them. He told them to deal with it and insisted on Septimius being black. So disrespecting and distorting the history of Non-European people is fine as long it happens in the name of wokeness and anti-white supremacy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Septimius was black according to Voshart on twitter, and he justifies making Macrinus and his son looking dark- brown cause he think he was whitewashed.
> ...



Dan Voshart has even had too much luck with his reconstructions that have become much more famous than they really deserved. 

Dan Voshart is just a North American graphic artist with almost no knowledge of ancient history, ethnography and genetics. And like all ignorant people in his answers he shows great arrogance and great prejudice.

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## Pax Augusta

> The romans were mostly Central European actually according to Moots paper...R1b and 30% circa steppe 
> 
> Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk



Your'e wrong, first of all those are the Latins and not the Romans and 30% Steppe is what the Iberians/North Italians/Tuscans can have. Also Albanians and northern Greeks can have 30% Steppe. Central Europeans have more than 30% Steppe.

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## Cato

> Your'e wrong, first of all those are the Latins and not the Romans and 30% Steppe is what the Iberians/North Italians/Tuscans can have. Also Albanians and northern Greeks can have 30% Steppe. Central Europeans have more than 30% Steppe.


Ok but that steppe admixture came from Central or Eastern Europe north of the Alps. I'm dark haired I m not a blond supremacist lol

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## real expert

> Dan Voshart has even had too much luck with his reconstructions that have become much more famous than they really deserved. 
> 
> Dan Voshart is just a North American graphic artist with almost no knowledge of ancient history, ethnography and genetics. And like all ignorant people in his answers he shows great arrogance and great prejudice.



I agree with your statement. The thing is there were people who tried to educate and correct Voshart, but he refused to listen. The reconstruction of ancient Roman emperors was not diverse enough, and "too white" for the taste of SJWs and woke folks. So he is wilfully ignorant.  Anyway,  this is beyond me. What the heck does ancient Roman history have do with the cultural war and the identity politics in the USA today? 

Regular North Africans and Syrians back then (like today) didn't display such dark skin tone.





Here, for example, the skin tone of Peninsular Arabs when not overexposed to the sun.




Vorshart is really a left-wing moron for thinking that Hadrian from Iberia and Alexander Severus were much darker than Peninsular Arabs. Zero common sense. Besides, Maximinius Thrax was a Barbarian emperor, half Goth and half Alan, so he was most likely pale, yet Voshart just decides out of the blue to make him look darker than the ancient Egyptians from Fayum for the sake of diversity and a better world. Hence not only the Romans but also Barbarians like Goth had to be dark according to him.

​

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## kingjohn

> Which of the three images do I best fit in ancient Rome? Con las 3, con 2, con ninguna? The application does it but the catharsis is mine.



in my opinion 
maybe the first ... :Thinking: 
you can fit the best in *Renaissance paintings*  :Smile:

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## Carlos

> in my opinion 
> maybe the first ...
> you can fit the best in *Renaissance paintings*


If I chose 1 for my avatar my status in ancient Rome is clearly seen, the 2 also provokes me but evokes me, inevitably dragging me on adventures that end in drama or doom and the 3 is already when you have a very good son; although who knows, maybe it's the worst of the three


My God how is it possible I can say that I have been in ancient Rome my results and my images are showing it much better than those of that type. I have had to do with ancient Rome which others cannot say.

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## Ygorcs

> I agree with your statement. The thing is there were people who tried to educate and correct Voshart, but he refused to listen. The reconstruction of ancient Roman emperors was not diverse enough, and "too white" for the taste of SJWs and woke folks. So he is wilfully ignorant.  Anyway,  this is beyond me. What the heck does ancient Roman history have do with the cultural war and the identity politics in the USA today? 
> 
> Regular North Africans and Syrians back then (like today) didn't display such dark skin tone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here, for example, the skin tone of Peninsular Arabs when not overexposed to the sun.
> ...


The obsession of American people (whether racist or self-purportedly anti-racist ones) with skin color is just unhealthy, and their overwhelming soft power influence over the rest of the world is unfortunately exporting these nonsensical and increasingly polarized white vs. black and light vs. dark classifications to the rest of the world, with little room for subtlety, mixed and intermediate positions. It's either X or Y, nothing in between. And the skin color thing is really getting ridiculous. EVEN IF, I mean, IF (of course this is false) ancient people of Iberian, Italian, Gothic, Alan, Syrian or whatever extraction were dark-skinned, even darker-skinned than they are shown in these reconstructions, what the hell would it change? They would still be nothing like nor even an inch more closely related to modern Africans, Indians, Arabians or whatever. All it would mean is that selection for increasingly lighter skin tones was particularly more powerful in the last 2,000 years than we'd thought before - and that's all, folks. 

These people seem to be so stuck in their white-or-back mindset that they can't possibly conceive that a light-skinned European or West Asian may descend from dark-skinned ancestors who weren't even that different (in genome-wide ancestry) from them, or that dark-skinned Eurasian doesn't have to have any modicum of African ancestry to have significant skin pigmentation (after all, all Eurasians were dark-skinned until not "so long" ago, i.e. at least ~15-25 kya, and some remained so for much longer or even until today). People like Vorshart, if they are reeeeally meaning it when they say they are trying to destroy systemic racism, should start by denying the very premises around which racism was founded, so they should stop thinking about diversity as basically a matter of diverse skin colors (while they apparently couldn't care less about different ethnic, cultural and linguistic identities) and about identity as a mere matter of looks.

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## Salento

@Ygorcs 
Where I live, people don't give a damn what color you are, and generally we’re very kind with each other.

What you watch on TV is the exception to the rules.

... and you, as a Brazilian should know better ... than bashing America for ... that!

... is also Election season and the bias media sensationalize stuff ...

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## Carlos

I have to make a huge effort to talk about these issues because the andaluza education I have received does not address these issues as I have discovered in the forums that deal with these issues, in fact foreigners are not usually criticized for good or bad. The most difficult to fit the vision of the younger countries of America, perhaps it is due to the enormous variety of tones they have or their history, I don't know but we should not import that way of seeing things to Europe.

http://Spaniards are not white, acco...New York Times

*Spaniards are not white, according to the New York Times*

The American newspaper carried out an analysis of the 922 most powerful people in the country and concluded that 80% of them are white


I imagine that the United States has a powerful Ibero-American community and when they see Spanish surnames they must have opted for a Hispanic classification that for them must be South Americans.


In Spain this article has been very bad.


*These Spaniards for the New York Times are not white*

Pablo Isla



John Garamendi




Neither does Devin Nunes who is of Portuguese origin

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## kingjohn

> I have to make a huge effort to talk about these issues because the andaluza education I have received does not address these issues as I have discovered in the forums that deal with these issues, in fact foreigners are not usually criticized for good or bad. The most difficult to fit the vision of the younger countries of America, perhaps it is due to the enormous variety of tones they have or their history, I don't know but we should not import that way of seeing things to Europe.
> 
> http://Spaniards are not white, acco...New York Times
> 
> *Spaniards are not white, according to the New York Times*
> 
> The American newspaper carried out an analysis of the 922 most powerful people in the country and concluded that 80% of them are white
> 
> 
> ...


maybe because the anglo-saxon world only consider themselfs as white ....
who knows ..... :Thinking: 
i never been to spain so i can't judge 
but i did visit england and they are( native british ) very very pale  :Thinking:

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## Jovialis

> I have to make a huge effort to talk about these issues because the andaluza education I have received does not address these issues as I have discovered in the forums that deal with these issues, in fact foreigners are not usually criticized for good or bad. The most difficult to fit the vision of the younger countries of America, perhaps it is due to the enormous variety of tones they have or their history, I don't know but we should not import that way of seeing things to Europe.
> 
> http://Spaniards are not white, acco...New York Times
> 
> *Spaniards are not white, according to the New York Times*
> 
> The American newspaper carried out an analysis of the 922 most powerful people in the country and concluded that 80% of them are white
> 
> 
> ...


It seems that for many Leftists, Spaniards are _white_ when they talk about New World colonization. They become _non-white_, when they want to court them for solidarity against Anglo-Americans. I think nordicist racists almost have a similar mentality. Both of them think in terms of outmoded 19th, and 20th century physical anthropology, and political polarization.

----------


## Carlos

> maybe because the anglo-saxon world only consider themselfs as white ....
> who knows .....
> i never been to spain so i can't judge 
> but i did visit england and they are( native british ) very very pale


It seems incredible to me that you say that you have never been to Spain to give an opinion. Truly throughout the American continent from top to bottom there are criteria on this subject that are not the ones we have in Western Europe, perhaps in Eastern Europe they are also different or it is convenient for them to do so. I already said that I have to make an effort to talk about these issues since it is not a priority issue nor is strictly observed a white tone literally speaking since the most natural or normal here in addition to the literal white go to beige and what perhaps for A European from Eastern Europe is dark here it is not so dark, it is possible that in North America or the entire American continent it is even more strict than in Eastern Europe, I don't know, I am based on what I am seeing on the forums.

----------


## Carlos

> It seems that for many Leftists, Spaniards are _white_ when they talk about New World colonization. They become _non-white_, when they want to court them for solidarity against Anglo-Americans. I think nordicist racists almost have a similar mentality. Both of them think in terms of outmoded 19th, and 20th century physical anthropology, and political polarization.


The Spanish leftists I can not with them are distorting and manipulating everything and it is something that surpasses me since I hate the lie as my mother taught me.


Really, all the history about America we see it very far and at the same level as any other ancient era, however I see that the world has it very present and updated, perhaps the younger countries have that very latent and present period because they hardly have more history than that, but we see it very far away and when we receive so much criticism as if those events had happened before yesterday it is a problem because you realize that for them it is important and they live it as something recent but for us no, we do not say nothing and we have to play the role of the script but we find it as hard as if we had to update Rome, Visigoths, Al Andalus, etc. We must bear in mind that we are an old country in Europe and we establish ourselves quickly, I do not know if it will be possible for the younger countries to understand it, perhaps in 1000 years when they have more history.


The Spanish left supports everything, anything that is not European, they go against their own ethnic group, I don't know, it's surreal, I can't understand them.

----------


## kingjohn

> *It seems incredible to me that you say that you have never been to Spain to give an opinion*. Truly throughout the American continent from top to bottom there are criteria on this subject that are not the ones we have in Western Europe, perhaps in Eastern Europe they are also different or it is convenient for them to do so. I already said that I have to make an effort to talk about these issues since it is not a priority issue nor is strictly observed a white tone literally speaking since the most natural or normal here in addition to the literal white go to beige and what perhaps for A European from Eastern Europe is dark here it is not so dark, it is possible that in North America or the entire American continent it is even more strict than in Eastern Europe, I don't know, I am based on what I am seeing on the forums.



well 
i don't live in space 
i saw the spanish national basketball team 
to me they are white 
don't know what other crazy people thinks

----------


## MOESAN

1- for phenotypes, true Arabs are only a variation of the 'europoid' type, 1 point! (only some mixings at the margins through SSA females mating): among Jew Arabs, this relatively recent admixture is almost = 0 - 
2- the most of today 'Europoids' have a rather light skin when protected from sunlight, whatever the nuances - it's under sunlight t that differences grow up -
3- Agree that this obsession on skin colour- which accounts for very little in Humans differenciation - is boring. As if intelligence or any thing linked to positive evolution was linked to skin colour... What doesn't signify skin colour is without incidence on sexual or other choices.
4- I agree this Voshart choices are ridiculous.
5- I'm personally rather leftist in the political sense and I think "leftist" or "rightist" attractions have not their place in the research of objective knowledges, even in the sociological ones. Before making sociologic political choices, we have to try to weight reality objectively.

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## Carlos

I do not know how it can be sociologically but I could have sexual relations with someone of another race but if I have the information that someone is a pro-independence or extreme leftist who supports the pro-independence movement, they would not have sexual relations, nor would they be desperate.

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## Dorquest

""The obsession of American people (whether racist or self-purportedly anti-racist ones) with skin color is just unhealthy,""
Should be more... Multicultural. I heard the East Asian are obsessed with light skin, and a lot of people from India. Further a lot of Europeans. For me skin color is just that, nothing more. But differences do exist, doesn’t make anybody better. Not every place has to look like Queens New York or Brazil. That’s what makes the world unique, Ireland, Japan, Italy, Iran, Nigeria, Israel, Etc. I for one don’t want us all to blend. That destroys diversity.

----------


## Ailchu

> It seems incredible to me that you say that you have never been to Spain to give an opinion. Truly throughout the American continent from top to bottom there are criteria on this subject that are not the ones we have in Western Europe, perhaps in Eastern Europe they are also different or it is convenient for them to do so. I already said that I have to make an effort to talk about these issues since it is not a priority issue nor is strictly observed a white tone literally speaking since the most natural or normal here in addition to the literal white go to beige and what perhaps for A European from Eastern Europe is dark here it is not so dark, it is possible that in North America or the entire American continent it is even more strict than in Eastern Europe, I don't know, I am based on what I am seeing on the forums.



don't use the term white. that simple. use westeurasian or caucasian if you have to, but there is no reason anymore to talk about "whites".

----------


## Ygorcs

> @Ygorcs 
> Where I live, people don't give a damn what color you are, and generally we’re very kind with each other.
> 
> What you watch on TV is the exception to the rules.
> 
> ... and you, as a Brazilian should know better ... than bashing America for ... that!
> 
> ... is also Election season and the bias media sensationalize stuff ...


I'm not bashing America at all. Quit this silly nationalism. You can "bash Brazil" all you want as long as it's about racism as it really is in Brazil's historical journey. Why would I care? I want my country to get past its mistakes, not defend it where its worst social aspects just because it's my country. I'm not even talking about what people give a damn about, but about the excessive focus on skin color to determine who is white or non-white, black or non-black, with little room for other racial labels and other concepts, which makes a lot of people, even American and US-influenced blacks, suppose out of the blue that North Africans, Arabs and other generally brown-skinned people can only be "blacks that mixed too much with whites" or vice-versa. The binary dichotomy is deeply ingrained. It doesn't necessarily mean people will treat you different because of that, but the simplistic and extremely color-based racial ideas are still there, even if just lurking the public debate so subtly that people who grew up into it can't even notice it anymore (but foreigners like me, raised in other environment, are, believe me, much more likely to notice those culturally different concepts about people and the world than a local).

It's simply a fact that the kind of racism that exists in the USA has a history of a much more binary, literally black-and-white racial classification. The vast majority of the laughably simplistic reduction of the racial debate to the amount of melanin in one's skin (generally with an implied notion that white is the standard, everything else is automatically lumped together as something black or closer to black) came and still come from the USA or via USA-influenced social movements elsewhere, it's a fact, and there are very clear historical reasons for that. Nowhere else did the racial classification system get as marked by a clear-cut dichotomy as in the USA (perhaps not even in apartheid South Africa, where coloreds did get official acknowledgement as not really white, but not really black either). Don't get personal and defensive. Maybe being American you don't notice that, particularly since - you're assuring us of this - you live in such a marvelous place surrounded only by great people, so you're away from the elements of society that have spread that kind of thought about race, with its insane obsession over paleness (to the point that everything less than really white was usually supposed to imply some "hybridization" with blacks). You wouldn't get one drop rule anywhere else if a lot of people didn't already think about race in those strictly binary terms, thus serving as justifying premises for that policy. 

As a Brazilian I do know better, rest assured, so I do know that Brazilian-style racism is different, and people have usually had a much more nuanced, complicated and less binary (white vs. black) system to classify other people, so people have always been perfectly capable of always getting that having dark skin doesn't mean you're black in the sense of someone of African origin. Hardly would a Brazilian progressive trying to be "woke" believe that they'd making a huge favor to black people''s role in History simply by depicting people of Iberian, Italian or Gothic origin with much more melanin than they certainly had, because it'd still be obvious to most of us that that doesn't make them "black", just darker-skinned Europeans that are not ancestral to any discriminated against minority today, but just ancestral to the Europeans. In a Brazilian mindset people are used to the idea that there are lots of different races and skin tones since the colonial era, even siblings can be said to be "different" racially. Skin color and racial/genetic origin are conceptualized as more clearly distinct things. It's a racist country, but racist in a different way and on a distinct historical basis. So, you can talk about Brazilian racism. I have no problem with that. I actually want people to talk more about it. Problems are not solved if we just keep telling us that it's all past and only some random and rare exceptions.

----------


## Ygorcs

> ""The obsession of American people (whether racist or self-purportedly anti-racist ones) with skin color is just unhealthy,""
> Should be more... Multicultural. I heard the East Asian are obsessed with light skin, and a lot of people from India. Further a lot of Europeans. For me skin color is just that, nothing more. But differences do exist, doesn’t make anybody better. Not every place has to look like Queens New York or Brazil. That’s what makes the world unique, Ireland, Japan, Italy, Iran, Nigeria, Israel, Etc. I for one don’t want us all to blend. That destroys diversity.


I'm not talking about that kind of "obsession" (which is more aesthetic than racial, i.e. East Asians don't believe they can classify people as different races simply based on how much melanin they have, they don't see their darker-skinned fellows as "another race" or a "hybrid with blacks"). I'm rather commenting about the debate and attitudes about race and ethnicity (actually, even the utter conflation between the two so common in the Anglo-Saxon world is another proof of what I'm saying), which is right under the surface still very influenced by a very polarized black vs. white racial dichotomy even in groups that claim to be fighting racism. E.g. just yesterday I saw some black activist claiming Egypt was black even if they had indeed come from a heavily Natufian-like population because Natufians were black Africans... his main point? The Mahra/Mehri people are dark-skinned and have curly hair, so apparently that makes them black Africans instantly; another one was claiming that if you're dark-skinned then you're black - hmm, so apparently racial origin = melanin -, so all the world was black until the "pale invaders" or something crazy like that came and stole their legacy; and the same comments, always still marked by a kind of thought steeped in "one drop rule" and a very simple racial dichotomy, are seen in comments by white "nationalists". Only such a kind of deeply ingrained and underlying conceptualization of race, extremely obsessed about paleness vs. darkness (darkness being anything less than reeeeeally white), can explain the kinds of things we read and see, like these ridiculously dark-skinned reconstructions of Roman emperors: it's obvious that the author thinks he's promoting diversity and black pride simply by making ancient Europeans have more melanin.

----------


## Carlos

> don't use the term white. that simple. use westeurasian or caucasian if you have to, but there is no reason anymore to talk about "whites".


They are terms that are used so that we can understand each other according to the context, whether or not they are more or less current, otherwise any topic will be impossible to deal with. Is it the crystal generation or what is this? It must be global from what I see. In generations ago people hunted things and concepts on the fly, these generations now have to give it all chewed up and you can't use your imagination and you pretend not to understand this or that, well, the older generations can also start to demand little things. to the crystal generation to see what happens.

I will use the terms that I deem appropriate at all times.

In any case, in this part of the world, I think that the morphology or structure of the face is more recognizable for Europe.


I trust that the patterns and way of looking at these issues will be rejected in Europe Although perhaps for socio-economic reasons Eastern Europe will be interested depending on its relations socioeconomic with the U.S.A.

Since the American countries seem to be eager for Europeanity, ok that they take away Spain and Portugal and some more and they put themselves with a bridge or a tunnel.

----------


## ihype02

White in terms of race is a non scientific term.

----------


## [email protected]

> White in terms of race is a non scientific term.


When I was a youngster I was taught that race did not exist as a scientific concept. That was the liberal/progressive viewpoint as well. What changed?

----------


## Ailchu

> When I was a youngster I was taught that race did not exist as a scientific concept. That was the liberal/progressive viewpoint as well. What changed?


white as a racial category makes only sense if it means westeurasian. otherwise it is not a racial group and more based on culture. in the US it is used for westeurasian at least officially. unofficially i'm not that sure, i mean, why would people still use the term white when caucasian or westeurasian is way better? but in europe it certainly is not the same. so in europe it is 100% having 0 sense as a racial category. you can see that very well because everyone has a different opinion on who is white and who isn't but in terms of beeing caucasian or westeurasian it is more clear. not completely clear either but certainly better.

----------


## Ailchu

> They are terms that are used so that we can understand each other according to the context, whether or not they are more or less current, otherwise any topic will be impossible to deal with. Is it the crystal generation or what is this? It must be global from what I see. In generations ago people hunted things and concepts on the fly, these generations now have to give it all chewed up and you can't use your imagination and you pretend not to understand this or that, well, the older generations can also start to demand little things. to the crystal generation to see what happens.
> 
> I will use the terms that I deem appropriate at all times.
> 
> In any case, in this part of the world, I think that the morphology or structure of the face is more recognizable for Europe.
> 
> 
> I trust that the patterns and way of looking at these issues will be rejected in Europe Although perhaps for socio-economic reasons Eastern Europe will be interested depending on its relations socioeconomic with the U.S.A.
> 
> Since the American countries seem to be eager for Europeanity, ok that they take away Spain and Portugal and some more and they put themselves with a bridge or a tunnel.


but "white" doesn't equal european in the US, where it is mostly used. first it was meant only for anglos then it opened up and included more and more people until it included most westeurasian people. that's probably because you can't just stop somewhere since there are too many overlaps. and honestly if you think europeans form a seperate racial group then i think it is not that much more illogical if someone else tries to exclude spaniards from that group while including all the other westeurasians or if he thinks that for example anglos form a seperate racial group.

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## Salento

> don't use the term white. that simple. use westeurasian or caucasian if you have to, but there is no reason anymore to talk about "whites".


right or wrong, some of my State IDs have a “W” on it, so like it or not, white is a ‘Legal’ and perfectly appropriate word to use :) 

... it’s just an extra Identification feature in a multi-ethnic society, I think.

----------


## Duarte

Nothing has changed, at least in US, I think.Yes, I agree with Ygorcs about the ‘binary vision’ of Anglo-Saxons about ethnicity: It’s black or white, and just one drop turns you a black, even if your specific phenotype seems very white. If your name or surname seems ‘Hispanic’, this turns you automatically a ‘non white’ as said Carlos. It’s things of Puritans, I think. Many immigrants suffered discrimination along the timelines when arrived in US, although its European origin, like Irish, Italian , South-Germans, just to pointed some ethnicities. Afrocentrism and white suprematism are, basically, American phenomena. In Brazil an organization like KKK never would be considered legal, even in the current misgovernment in which we live . Yes, There is racism in Brasil. Brazil is a racist country. But the racism is not directed simply in reason of the color of your skin, but, basically, to your appearance and social status. The police will not approach you at random in a street if you look white. The same is not true of those who look like 'non-whites': Sad truth in Brazil.

In Brazil, no identification document will indicate your ethnicity, except on your birth certificate and, for men, on your reservist certificate, that shows your ethnicity, the color of your eyes and your height.

----------


## [email protected]

Ailchu,

Where do you get this? It seems you’re just making this up. Site some sources.

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## Ygorcs

> In Brazil, no identification document will indicate your ethnicity, except on your birth certificate and, for men, on your reservist certificate, that shows your ethnicity, the color of your eyes and your height.


Just a small correction: for 99.5% of Brazilians (those who aren't still indigenous in an ethnic sense, i.e. with their own distinctive cultural identity and so on), those documents will only indicate your skin color/physical phenotype. The concept of race in Brazil became so blurred and variable (very far from the black vs. white dichotomy I was talking about in other comments, which lead "woke" people to think they're doing something pro-black by depicting veeeeeery tanned European emperors) that when peope talk about "race" they're really saying how someone looks like in skin complexion and a few other traits (generally lips, nose and hair texture): white, brown, black, yellow (i.e. East Asian-like looks). As I said, it's different. There is a lot of racism, but the concepts that underly it are just different. Race is not as conflated with ethnicity and with one's origins as in US-style racial thought. To the large majority of Brazilians it is pretty "obvious" that a light-skinned Pakistani or Saudi is white, no matter where their roots come from. Conversely, an individual with pretty brown skin, but not that dark, but of mostly European origin (and very visibly so in traits like face, hair, eyes etc.), will hardly be described as black, but as "brown" or "tanned" or something like that. That's why I notice very easily when a black activist in Brazil is being heavily influenced by US racial discourse and debate or not. The way to think about phenotype, genotype and racial classification is just not the same.

----------


## Duarte

> Just a small correction: for 99.5% of Brazilians (those who aren't still indigenous in an ethnic sense, i.e. with their own distinctive cultural identity and so on), those documents will only indicate your skin color/physical phenotype. The concept of race in Brazil became so blurred and variable (very far from the black vs. white dichotomy I was talking about in other comments, which lead "woke" people to think they're doing something pro-black by depicting veeeeeery tanned European emperors) that when peope talk about "race" they're really saying how someone looks like in skin complexion and a few other traits (generally lips, nose and hair texture): white, brown, black, yellow (i.e. East Asian-like looks). As I said, it's different. There is a lot of racism, but the concepts that underly it are just different. Race is not as conflated with ethnicity and with one's origins as in US-style racial thought. To the large majority of Brazilians it is pretty "obvious" that a light-skinned Pakistani or Saudi is white, no matter where their roots come from. Conversely, an individual with pretty brown skin, but not that dark, but of mostly European origin (and very visibly so in traits like face, hair, eyes etc.), will hardly be described as black, but as "brown" or "tanned" or something like that. That's why I notice very easily when a black activist in Brazil is being heavily influenced by US racial discourse and debate or not. The way to think about phenotype, genotype and racial classification is just not the same.


Yes, thanks for the clarification, Ygor. The birth certificate and the reservist certificate are non-mandatory personal documents and must only be displayed in situations provided for law. In the mandatory document of carry, which may be the ID, the driver's license, the ID issued by an regulated profession council or the functional identity, the last one in case of a public servant, there is no reference to the ethnicity or skin’s color.

----------


## Salento

_none of the Emperors had just a big full Mustache, :-I ... just sayin’_ 

_... beard doesn't count :)_

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## Duarte

> none of the Emperors had just a big full Mustache, :-I ... just sayin’ 
> 
> ... beard doesn't count :)


 :Good Job:  It is true Salento.I never saw a representation of a Roman emperor wearing a mustache. The smooth face of many Roman emperors may be due to the fact that it was in the Roman Civilization that the first shaving creams, based on olive oil, appeared. The custom of using the mustache in Europe came with the Visigoths who lived in the Iberian Peninsula and were known for their great mustaches. In English, “bigot” is someone intolerant of different opinions, which is consistent with the fame of the Visigoths. The word came from “bigoth”, i.e., “visigoth”. In Portuguese “mustache” means “bigode”, I.e. “Visigoth”.

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## Ailchu

> right or wrong, some of my State IDs have a “W” on it, so like it or not, white is a ‘Legal’ and perfectly appropriate word to use :) 
> 
> ... it’s just an extra Identification feature in a multi-ethnic society, I think.


in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?

----------


## Ailchu

> Ailchu,
> 
> Where do you get this? It seems you’re just making this up. Site some sources.


what exactly?

----------


## Salento

> in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?


I don’t know, I didn’t ask, they just looked at me, ...

----------


## Carlos

> but "white" doesn't equal european in the US, where it is mostly used. first it was meant only for anglos then it opened up and included more and more people until it included most westeurasian people. that's probably because you can't just stop somewhere since there are too many overlaps. and honestly if you think europeans form a seperate racial group then i think it is not that much more illogical if someone else tries to exclude spaniards from that group while including all the other westeurasians or if he thinks that for example anglos form a seperate racial group.


In that same New York Times article, the Moroccan character has been classified as white, the Spanish have not, it must be too much for them to classify someone with Spanish surnames as white.


I believe that these issues are paid, someone pays, as I also believe that they pay in directed genetic studies.


What interests can they be?


On the one hand, I think there are the aspiring countries to be considered whiter than they are, others to improve their reviled image in Europe and the world and have found that the perfect spring to do so is the Iberian Peninsula,


They may seem insignificant or even frivolous topics but I think they are more important than they seem at first glance and they can affect investments and the economy.


The United States is the world power today and everything will turn according to the minorities that that country has? Will they exclude Spain and some other country will accept it as a pet according to the minorities they have there? It must be insurmountable for them to accept someone with Spanish surnames as white even when it comes to Spain?


From the rich partner countries of Eastern Europe he cannot trust you, one less competitor, incredibly they are still found in foreign forums that dream of another dictatorship in Spain, they must be crazy, we do not want that even in dreams.


The Iberian Peninsula, well, it seems the perfect spring for the North African countries because of that small percentage of Iberomaurusian from 12,000 years ago of some super deteriorated samples and that, well, we obtain them even in the national identity document and with the reinforcement of the Muslim era in Spain It must be that of: if they can, we too, we are not so different, we have something to do with it, all in order to convince or create opinion in the face of the rich countries of Eastern Europe and the United States. 

There are paying people in forums even in tik tok there are systematically campaigning to improve their image using Spain.


Then there are the aspiring countries of the rest of America, who also want to improve their image and be considered whiter than they are and also find in the Iberian Peninsula in this case unlike the North African countries more in a sense that it appears This part of Western Europe bone the Iberian peninsula with a mentality of the 17th century or perpetuate in negative the conquest of the new world, victims and executioners.


That so many interests are for something, it is not for entertainment and these issues do affect investments and the economy, otherwise there would not be so much interest in them.

----------


## ihype02

> When I was a youngster I was taught that race did not exist as a scientific concept. That was the liberal/progressive viewpoint as well. What changed?


The definition of whiteness has changed 46886427 times.

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## real expert

> in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?


I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.

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## Salento

> I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.


... not on my State IDs, 



... US weight is in pounds :) 

for the Feds is white too.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...orms/n-400.pdf

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## Duarte

> ... not on my State IDs, 
> 
> 
> 
> for the Feds is white too:
> https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...orms/n-400.pdf


Please Salento, I ask you to kindly forward the form to the identification service of your state. Thanks in advance. These are my answers to some questions. I think that the ID service will put my race as “B” or exists the letter “L” for Latino.



1. Hispanic or Latino
2. White
3. 5’ 11”. 4. 190
5. Blue
6. Gray

 :Thinking:  :Grin: 

Cheers dear friend.  :Laughing:

----------


## Salento

> Please Salento, I ask you to kindly forward the form to the identification service of your state. Thanks in advance. These are my answers to some questionds. I think that the ID service will put my race as “B”.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Hispanic or Latino
> 2. White
> 3. 5’ 11”. 4. 190
> 5. Blue
> 6. Gray
> ...


 if you lie, first they’ll change it, and then I'll go to visit you in prison  :Grin:

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## Duarte

> if you lie, first they’ll change it, and then I'll go to visit you in prison


 :Shocked:  :Petrified:  :Startled:  :Grin:  :Laughing:

----------


## real expert

The point is that historical accuracy does matter. It's a matter of respect for the heritage of people, and their ancestry that scientists try to be historical accurate when reconstructing the physical appearance of historical people. So I‘m not criticizing Voshart for making Hadrian, Severus as dark as SSAs because I begrudge blacks their Roman heritage or emperors, not at all, but because I do care about historical accuracy. Therefore, not only Nordicist but also leftist lies don‘t matter to me. Hence, if scholars want to reconstruct the physical appearance of historical people they better be as accurate as possible instead of being as political correct as possible. So in that sense getting the skin color fairly right, does matter. The leftists who distort and rewrite history are like muh distortion is better than yours because I'm misleading and cheating for the sake of a better world and anti-racism. Nordicistic distortion of history is outrageous but so is Voshart insisting on the misrepresentation of North African, Syrian Roman emperors by making them look how he wants them to look. North African and Middle Easterners are upset with Voshart and not white supremacists or Nordicists, to begin with.

Here critical comments of North Africans/Middle Easterners that are on point. 

https://twitter.com/ndehouche/status...616512/photo/1

https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1300874984273870852

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## Salento

> 


that was a Federal Form, If you're bald and you say you have gray hair, .. it's a Federal Offense !!!  :Laughing:  Seriously !

----------


## Angela

Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.

So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)

I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.

”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)

The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)

Some North African from the Rif would be considered “white” but the majority, who are about a quarter black and look it, probably wouldn’t. Well, unless he looked like Omar Sharif, officially Egyptian but actually Syrian, who when young passed as a Central Asian admixed Russian in “Doctor zhivago”. The one drop rule is dead and buried in America except for Nordicists on anthrofora. Oh, and except for some African admixed people who refuse to identify as mulatto (Halle Berry), or quadroon ( the daughter of the founder of Motown Records), and insist on identifying as black. So some of them are to blame for this two part division now too. In fact, a whole list of professors was recently published who lied and claimed some minority ancestry to get preferential hiring and promotion. One woman started doing it for grad school and it’s been going on for decades. I think she even teaches African Studies!

It’s all madness. 

Of course, in today’s BLM era the New York Times is calling people with this kind of ancestry people of color. I guess now it’s an honor. They want everyone who doesn’t look Nordic to “join” the movement.

This was all inherited from the English settlers so let’s blame them! :). Seriously, they had a very different attitude than the Spanish and Portuguese, or the Italians in their short lived African colonies or the French in their colonies. Even “one drop” of African blood tainted you.They always denied any miscegenation by them, blaming it on the Spanish and Portuguese sailors during the crossing, and sometimes on Irish overseers. The English and Scots men would never do such a disgusting thing, so they claimed, and so they never or almost never claimed these children. It was denial, denial, denial. That’s why there was no separate classification for them. It’s all clearly recorded in documents from the period.

it was insanity and horrible. These were their children they were selling and sometimes deliberately feeding for sale.

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## Duarte

> Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.
> 
> So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)
> 
> I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.
> 
> ”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)
> 
> The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)
> ...


Very nice see you back, Angela. Cheers :)

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## Angela

Not for long. :)

I sold my house and bought a new one on Tuesday; back to back closings. It was hellish for two months: finding a buyer, finding a new house, negotiating the deals and PACKING. 

We moved yesterday: 12 hours of hell on earth. After it was over all I did was make the beds and set out the coffee maker. Today I slept with my feet up on bags of ice. It was a great look.

AND, I have no internet till at least the 25th so this is by phone. 

Tomorrow starts the unpack time, new doctors, new stores, new license, new everything. 

If some paper on Italy gets published I hope someone will pm me. :)

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## Duarte

> Not for long. :)
> 
> I sold my house and bought a new one on Tuesday; back to back closings. It was hellish for two months: finding a buyer, finding a new house, negotiating the deals and PACKING. 
> 
> We moved yesterday: 12 hours of hell on earth. After it was over all I did was make the beds and set out the coffee maker. Today I slept with my feet up on bags of ice. It was a great look.
> 
> AND, I have no internet till at least the 25th so this is by phone. 
> 
> Tomorrow starts the unpack time, new doctors, new stores, new license, new everything. 
> ...


Good luck in your new home, Angela. I went through this eight years ago. I know that this is very exhausting. When I moving to my new apartment, the cabinets in the bedrooms were not ready and the clothes had to be in rented clothes racks. There was a lot to be done because service providers delayed the work and I had to hand over the old apartment to the new owner who had bought it from me. Well, I tried not to stress too much, but it was difficult, sometimes.

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## Ailchu

> Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.
> 
> So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)
> 
> I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.
> 
> ”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)
> 
> The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)
> ...


the chechen bombers really do look white though. if they aren't "white" then what are they? they certainly do not look like a different race and the fact that there were certain people who immiediately said they aren't white proves my point. 

i don't get it, why is the US still using the misleading term "white" when its definition changed several times and everyone has a different opinion. 

the zarnaevs say they aren't white because they still have a different understanding of what the term white means. for them it is probably also not just a racial group but also political. the term white should be removed because it is a pseudo racial category that has a lot to do with politics. armenians are white because they are christians?! so certain people who would actually belong in it are still excluded or do not identify with it.

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## Ailchu

> I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.


no, the official term is white. also, you say the official term in the US is caucasian, but that the regular people equate caucasian with "white" or european. i don't think so. that would mean that regular people in the US have no real term for non-european caucasians. but it's rather the other way around the official term for all caucasians is white but many of the regular people in the US still seem to equate white with just the europeans or not even all europeans.

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## Ailchu

> In that same New York Times article, the Moroccan character has been classified as white, the Spanish have not, it must be too much for them to classify someone with Spanish surnames as white.
> 
> 
> I believe that these issues are paid, someone pays, as I also believe that they pay in directed genetic studies.
> 
> 
> What interests can they be?


don't know do you have any ideas for why someone could pay them? 

also i wonder what does white mean for you anyways if you are so eager to be called white?

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## [email protected]

> no, the official term is white. also, you say the official term in the US is caucasian, but that the regular people equate caucasian with "white" or european. i don't think so. that would mean that regular people in the US have no real term for non-european caucasians. but it's rather the other way around the official term for all caucasians is white but many of the regular people in the US still seem to equate white with just the europeans or not even all europeans.


As a German, why do you insist on telling Americans what the official American term for 'white' people is or how 'regular people' refer to the subject? I promise you, I'm not going to tell you what German people think.

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## Dagne

> Please Salento, I ask you to kindly forward the form to the identification service of your state. Thanks in advance. These are my answers to some questions. I think that the ID service will put my race as “B” or exists the letter “L” for Latino.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Hispanic or Latino
> 2. White
> 3. 5’ 11”. 4. 190
> 5. Blue
> 6. Gray
> ...


I love the classification of the eye colour - PINK!?

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## Ailchu

> As a German, why do you insist on telling Americans what the official American term for 'white' people is or how 'regular people' refer to the subject? I promise you, I'm not going to tell you what German people think.


why do you not also question what real_expert wrote? my take from this would be that he was right? maybe you can explain to me what american people really think. are mena people really white in the eyes of the common american white person and are they accepted as real whites or just as some "whitish" people?

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## Angela

I'd say this is a pretty good "modernized" portrait of a bust of Julius Caesar, and the man would totally fit into today's Italy. In fact, he looks a lot like my mother's father and somewhat like my mother herself, i.e. a masculine version.

Of course, whether the bust really is a good representation of Caesar, we don't know, but it was certainly modeled on someone of the period.



The creator has a facebook page where she does this for a lot of ancient people. Most of them look pretty good to me, except perhaps Nefertiti, who wouldn't have been as "African" looking from what we know of ancient Egyptian genetics, and unless the coins of her are inaccurate, Cleopatra really wasn't that pretty.

Indeed, Agrippina and Lady Jane Grey are the only really pretty women, but make up and modern hair do wonders.:) It seems she made a really silly mistake with the latter. She clearly should have blue eyes.

https://www.facebook.com/RoyaltyNow/photos

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## Angela

> I'd say this is a pretty good "modernized" portrait of a bust of Julius Caesar, and the man would totally fit into today's Italy. In fact, he looks a lot like my mother's father and somewhat like my mother herself, i.e. a masculine version.
> 
> Of course, whether the bust really is a good representation of Caesar, we don't know, but it was certainly modeled on someone of the period.
> 
> 
> 
> The creator has a facebook page where she does this for a lot of ancient people. Most of them look pretty good to me, except perhaps Nefertiti, who wouldn't have been as "African" looking from what we know of ancient Egyptian genetics, and unless the coins of her are inaccurate, Cleopatra really wasn't that pretty.
> 
> Indeed, Agrippina and Lady Jane Grey are the only really pretty women, but make up and modern hair do wonders.:) It seems she made a really silly mistake with the latter. She clearly should have blue eyes.
> ...


Wow, I look even more like a female version of him in this reconstruction. 



Anyway, here is a coin issued by Caesar himself while he was in Gaul. The laurel leaf hides the fact that he was balding. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity. :)

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## Jovialis

> I'd say this is a pretty good "modernized" portrait of a bust of Julius Caesar, and *the man would totally fit into today's Italy.* In fact, he looks a lot like my mother's father and somewhat like my mother herself, i.e. a masculine version.
> 
> Of course, whether the bust really is a good representation of Caesar, we don't know, but it was certainly modeled on someone of the period.
> 
> 
> 
> The creator has a facebook page where she does this for a lot of ancient people. Most of them look pretty good to me, except perhaps Nefertiti, who wouldn't have been as "African" looking from what we know of ancient Egyptian genetics, and unless the coins of her are inaccurate, Cleopatra really wasn't that pretty.
> 
> Indeed, Agrippina and Lady Jane Grey are the only really pretty women, but make up and modern hair do wonders.:) It seems she made a really silly mistake with the latter. She clearly should have blue eyes.
> ...


Absolutely, I agree.

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## Angela

> Absolutely, I agree.


I added my children's favorite picture of me for comparison; I'm about 30 there. 

The reconstruction looks more like he could be my brother than my brother does. He's a totally different type.

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## Carlos

That image of Julius Caesar above is very idyllic. Angela I'm sorry, but I don't see the resemblance hahahahaha

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## Angela

> That image of Julius Caesar above is very idyllic. Angela I'm sorry, but I don't see the resemblance hahahahaha


I'm not so fond of that one, although the only thing "wrong" in my opinion is that the eyes are too close together. It's more the expression in the eyes, or lack of expression, that I find wanting. 

This is still my favorite. 


It's as if he's about to speak.

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## Carlos

Julius Caesar was the great protagonist of the last period of Republican Rome. He was a majestic orator, strategist, writer and poet, he stood out mainly as a politician and military badge, he had a personality,* impulsive, ambitious but also generous and subtle.

*

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