# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Bronze Age >  R1b-M269 / L23 and the diffusion of early metallurgy

## Tomenable

In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ice-Age-Europe

Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.

These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:

http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300

Rapid diffusion of metallurgy in the 4th millennium BC can be linked with expansion of R1b M269/L23:



Metallurgy expanded north with Maykop culture, which contributed R1b-Z2103 to Yamnaya:



Metallurgy expanded to Iberia across the Mediterranean region and later with Bell Beakers:



And a map showing how R1b-L51 or maybe pre-L51 L23 (ancestral to ATP3 and Bell Beaker) migrated:



Previously I've pointed out, that some of the most basal lineages of L51 can be found* in Sardinia:*

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## bicicleur

the article starts with the Uruk expansion, no mention of the prior furnace metallurgy in the Balkans

earliest known Y DNA associated with metallurgy are Ötzi (G2a) and Remedello (I), next is Yamnaya (R1b-Z2103)

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## Tomenable

> earliest known Y DNA associated with metallurgy are Ötzi (G2a) and Remedello (I)


G2a and I were just Neolithic natives in the area, not immigrant smiths who introduced metallurgy.

This is so patently obvious that they were not immigrants.

What you are just saying is like saying that Q introduced horses to North America because they also rode them.

There is no evidence that Ötzi was a smith and that he personally produced his copper axe/knife.

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## Tomenable

R1b-L23 initially dispersed as smiths & traders who travelled alone and married local women in each region.

This is why they acquired autosomal DNA of other groups.

In most regions it was initially a peaceful dispersal. Ötzi was not a producer of metal items, he was a consumer.

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## MOESAN

> R1b-L23 initially dispersed as smiths & traders who travelled alone and married local women in each region.
> 
> This is why they acquired autosomal DNA of other groups.
> 
> In most regions it was initially a peaceful dispersal. Ötzi was not a producer of metal items, he was a consumer.




_Almost all the new threads about ancient DNA this week are concerned by the Y-R1b story, in some way. Localization, date...
I find interesting the smiths hypothesis but I find very hard to swallow the fact a handfull of first pacific smiths became the basis of Western Europe Y-DNA. It needed surely some well constitued groups of people with other arguments than only metallurgy skills, but I can be wrong, it's true. THat said, surely the most of the Y-R1b bearers associated to the demic "boom" of the 3000 BC in Europe had among them good metallurgists.
The big dominance of subsequent Y-R1b in tombs in some cultures could very well be explained by this smiths theory, thinking in the elites question in burying of these times. But in today populations?
_

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## Tomenable

*ATP3* (suspected R1b) and ATP20 did not have the same auDNA as other ATP samples:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...anish-genomes/

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post466264

Copper Age Iberia samples show clear evidence of two distinct origins of that population.

As for those R1b-Z2103 men who brought metallurgy to the Steppe (together with CHG ancestry):

Let's underline that while the PIE did *not* invent metallurgy (and were *not* responsible for its initial diffusion), they most likely *did* acquire the knowledge of metallurgy from some Non-IE group before they started to diverge into branches (i.e. before the end of the PIE linguistic unity). That's probably why the majority of IE ethnic groups have the legend about *"the Smith and the Devil"* in one variant or another:

http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.o...ent/3/1/150645

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35358487




> *(...) And a folk tale called The Smith And The Devil, about a blacksmith selling his soul in a pact with the Devil in order to gain supernatural abilities, was estimated to go back 6,000 years ago (...)*


L23 goes back 6,200 years ago (TMRCA according to YFull), linking it with the origins of metallurgy and of this folk tale.

This folk tale was later adopted by the PIE community, at the same time when it adopted metallurgy from R1b-L23.

*Quote:*




> (...) In some cases, it may also be possible to evaluate inferences about ancestral tale corpora in relation to other sources of information about past societies, such as historical, archaeological, linguistic and genetic data.* Our findings regarding the origins of ATU 330 ‘The Smith and the Devil’ are a case in point. The basic plot of this tale—which is stable throughout the Indo-European speaking world, from India to Scandinavia—concerns a blacksmith who strikes a deal with a malevolent supernatural being* (e.g. the Devil, Death, a jinn, etc.). The smith exchanges his soul for the power to weld any materials together, which he then uses to stick the villain to an immovable object (e.g. a tree) to renege on his side of the bargain. *The likely presence of this tale in the last common ancestor of Indo-European-speaking cultures resonates strongly with wider debates in Indo-European prehistory, since it implies the existence of metallurgy in Proto-Indo-European society.* (...)


Unfortunately the authors don't say whether this tale about "the Smith & the Devil" exists also in Non-IE folklore traditions.

My theory is that R1b (mainly M269/L23) were spreading copper metallurgy from the Middle East or/and from the Balkans.

*They likely brought CHG ancestry (aka "Teal" or "Armenian-like") to the Steppe, but were no longer hunter-gatherers by that time.* It is not a coincidence that this ancestry appeared in the Volga Steppes in substantial amount for the first time in Khvalynsk folks, who had the knowledge of agriculture (e.g. domesticated cattle and sheep-goat)?:

Excerpts from page 35 out of 46: http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...16477.full.pdf

"The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River, 
6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). *Bones of domesticated
cattle and sheep-goat*, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
in 10 sacrificial deposits."

The richest of the three graves from Khvalynsk also happened to be R1b, even though not yet L23:

"*The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe.* Together with high 15N in
the human bones from Khvalynsk, which might have caused a reservoir effect making 14C
dates too old, the circulation of so much copper, which increased in SE Europe after 4700
BCE, suggests that a date after 4700 BCE would be reasonable for many graves at
Khvalynsk. Copper was found in 13 adult male graves, 8 adult female graves, and 4 sub-adult
graves. The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and
northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the
northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here."

80% of all copper objects were buried together with the R1b man (surely a _"coincidence"_ - he wasn't a smith or a copper trader?):

"Y- 10122 / SVP35 (grave 12)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 20-30, positioned on his back with raised knees, *with 293
copper artifacts, mostly beads, amounting to 80% of the copper objects in the combined
cemeteries of Khvalynsk I and II. Probably a high-status individual, his Y-chromosome
haplotype, R1b1, also characterized the high-status individuals buried under kurgans in later
Yamnaya graves in this region, so he could be regarded as a founder of an elite group of
patrilineally related families.* His MtDNA haplotype H2a1 is unique in the Samara series."

And the other guy was one "commoners" (or "R1a outliers" who were in fact the majority - according to my theory):

"Y- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
copper ring and a copper bead. *His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves.* His U5a1i
MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series."

After Khvalynsk we see the influx of even more CHG ancestry into the Steppe, and the influx of more R1b.

Do you think that the gradual increase of CHG ancestry had *nothing* to do with immigration of R1b ???

Do you think that people who brought that ancestry did not bring agriculture and copper with them ???

Also - my idea is that R1b was never the majority, but always the minority, of the Yamna male population.

But they were smiths - and as such they were considered to be men with magical abilities, therefore they were initially overrepresented in kurgan burials.

Later that changed, and R1a men assumed the elite status previously attributed to R1b-Z2103. So I don't think that there was ever such a thing as "replacement of R1b by R1a in the Steppe after Yamna". Yamna was probably R1b-Z2103 minority (but "smiths-shamans") + R1a majority (but "commoners"). And what we see later on, is the loss of high status by R1b-Z2103 and R1a men becoming "chieftains". However, Z2103 continued to exist as a minority lineage and went to India (there is in fact a small minority of R1b-Z2103 in India).

*There is even such a legend in the Aryan Veddas about the Asvins killing Dadhyak Atharvan because he didn't want to reveal to them the secrets of metallurgy. Then they cut of his head, replaced it with a horse's head - which started talking and revealed the knowledge to them. Believe it or not but such a burial of a decapitated man with attached horse's head has been found near Poltavka, and archaeologically (as well as chronologically) it corresponds to the replacement of R1b-dominated Poltavka culture by the R1a-dominated Potapovka culture.*

That decapitated man has not yet been tested for Y-DNA, it would be nice to see if he was one of Poltavka "mainstream" or one of Poltavka "outliers" (but of course according to my theory "outliers" were actually the majority of Poltavka population, but "mainstream" - being smiths with "magical knowledge" - were overrepresented in kurgan graves; same in Yamnaya).

*L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.*

So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.

The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. *Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center.* This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.

=================

As for Western European R1b being derived directly from Yamna (rather than from "original" Bell Beaker):

In Bell Beaker we have only L11+, or even just P312+. In CWC we have a whole diverse bunch of R1a subclades.

We have M198*, L664, M417*, M417+, Z283+ (including Z284). Likely also some R1b M269(xL51) was in CWC too.

This shows that CWC was a "wholesale" migration wave from the Steppe, with all lineages from very basal to more diverged moving at once. And all those guys had 75%+ Yamnaya/Steppe autosomal DNA (or Yamnaya-cousin autosomal DNA if you prefer).

German Beaker was not such a thing, as it had a shortage of Y-DNA diversity (only L11+) and less of Steppe admixture.

You need to explain why there was no L23(xL51) in Bell Beaker, and why there is none in modern Western Europe.

Populations descended from CWC (such as Slavs) actually have ca. 5% of R1b-L23(xL51). See: Myres 2010.

Which confirms that Corded Ware had some L23(xL51) from Yamna *or* Yamna-cousin population.

By contrast, there is absolute lack of Yamna-related L23(xL51) in BB and modern West Europe.

Eastern Europeans have *10x* more of Yamna-related R1b (ca. 5.0%) than Germans (ca. 0.5%).

===========================

Bell Beaker was probably Indo-Europeanized by Corded Ware in Germany and acquired Steppe admixture there.

According to Carleton S. Coon, there was intense mixing between German Bell Beaker and German Corded Ware:

*Carleton S. Coon wrote:*


"(...) In their Rhineland center, the more numerous Bell Beaker people had
constant relationships with the inhabitants of Denmark, who were still
burying in corridor tombs. *Furthermore, the Corded people, one branch
of whom invaded Jutland and introduced the single-grave type of burial,
also migrated to the Rhine Valley, and here amalgamated themselves
with the Bell Beaker people*, who were already in process of mixing with
their Borreby type neighbors. *The result of this triple fusion was a great
expansion, and a population overflow down the Rhine, in the direction
of Britain.*

(8) THE BRONZE AGE IN BRITAIN

The consideration of the Bell Beaker problem leads naturally to that of
the Bronze Age in the British Isles, where the Beaker people found their
most important and most lasting home. Coming down the Rhine and out
into the North Sea, they invaded the whole eastern coast of England and
of Scotland, and also the shore of the Channel.
*The Beaker invasion of Britain was not a simple affair. Not only did the
newcomers land in many places, but they brought with them somewhat
different traditions. Although most of them brought zoned beakers and
battle axes, in consequence of their blending with the Corded people in
the Rhinelands* (...)"

====================

*Indeed there is a lot of overlap in mitochondrial haplogroups between Corded Ware and German Beakers:

*https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=852847213

Bride exchanges ??? Or some other type(s) of hybridization.

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## Tomenable

> I find interesting the smiths hypothesis but I find very hard to swallow the fact a handfull of first pacific smiths became the basis of Western Europe Y-DNA. It needed surely some well constitued groups of people with other arguments than only metallurgy skills


Those R1b Beakers first expanded eastward, towards Germany and Central Europe in general. Later in Germany (or in Central Europe in general) they mixed with immigrants from the Steppe, acquired Steppe admixture (perhaps mediated mostly via women) and some cultural elements. After that, there was a "back-migration" from Germany to Britain and other parts of Western Europe.

That's when modern subclades of R1b - such as L21, U152, etc. - really started to dominate numerically.

Those Beakers that had initially expanded from Iberia or South France were not necessarily already L21 or U152.

*They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312*, U106*, etc.*. More common lineages likely expanded later.

===============================

As for smiths and/or traders of metal objects being high-status individuals - check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo#t=6m20s

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## Tomenable

*Furnace smelting of copper was invented by semi-nomadic people (Caucasians and/or Anatolians).*

This is according to Nissim Amzallag, "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" (screenshot):



This further strengthens my case that the spread of CHG admixture and R1b was related to this.

CHG stands for Caucasian admixture after all.

========================




> *L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.*
> 
> So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.
> 
> The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. *Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center.* This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.


More about Varna (see the English summary):

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...l&client=opera

*"E. Neustupný suggested using a term “Eneolithic” instead of the copper age and
replacing its distinctive raw material criterion (copper) by a complex of cultural, social
and economic elements. Importantly he recognized the emergence of the plough in
agronomy instead of burning techniques, the replacement of large settlements by smaller
ones, burying the dead in cemeteries on land outside the inhabited areas and the
strengthening role of the male (“patriarchy”) in societies of that time."*

*"A sequence of the Hamangia-Varna cultures, beginning from the 3rd development
phase of the former, is thought to be the oldest and most representative cultures of the
copper age/eneolithic. They are dated from 4900 to 4400 BC. The wealthiest in metal
product sites is an eponymic cemetery at Varna.* All metal artifacts from the graves of
the Hamangia and Varna cultures may be qualified to a group of symbolic finds, which
had little in common with the notion of utilitarism. Similar functions were performed
by other artifacts made of different raw materials. Among others, long flint blades or
ornaments made of _Spondylus_ shells and many others may be mentioned. It is thought
that in the cemeteries of the Hamangia-Varna cultures circle, with particular consideration
of the cemetery at Varna, there were traces of serious inner differentiation of
societies that were using it."

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## Tomenable

> *L23 has the highest variance in the Middle East and/or in the Balkans.*
> 
> So my idea that L23 mutation emerged in the Middle East is not improbable.
> 
> The maximum variance in the Balkans is truly meaningful with respect to their migration history and last archaeological discoveries. *Apparently Varna on the Black Sea coast was a quite important early metallurgy center.* This could coincide with the R1b-L51 expansion.


More about Varna (see the English summary):


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...l&client=opera


*"E. Neustupný suggested using a term “Eneolithic” instead of the copper age and
replacing its distinctive raw material criterion (copper) by a complex of cultural, social
and economic elements. Importantly he recognized the emergence of the plough in
agronomy instead of burning techniques, the replacement of large settlements by smaller
ones, burying the dead in cemeteries on land outside the inhabited areas and the
strengthening role of the male (“patriarchy”) in societies of that time."*


*"A sequence of the Hamangia-Varna cultures, beginning from the 3rd development
phase of the former, is thought to be the oldest and most representative cultures of the
copper age/eneolithic. They are dated from 4900 to 4400 BC. The wealthiest in metal
product sites is an eponymic cemetery at Varna.* All metal artifacts from the graves of
the Hamangia and Varna cultures may be qualified to a group of symbolic finds, which
had little in common with the notion of utilitarism. Similar functions were performed
by other artifacts made of different raw materials. Among others, long flint blades or
ornaments made of _Spondylus_ shells and many others may be mentioned. It is thought
that in the cemeteries of the Hamangia-Varna cultures circle, with particular consideration
of the cemetery at Varna, there were traces of serious inner differentiation of
societies that were using it."

----------


## Tomenable

*ATP3* (who was R1b-M269+ ???) from Iberia was among burials classified as *"Pre-Bell Beaker"* by archaeologists:

Check this paper - *"An unusual Pre-bell beaker copper age cave burial context from El Portalon de Cueva Mayor site (Sierra de Atapuerca, Burgos)":*

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...apuerca_Burgos

https://www.academia.edu/16986146/Pr...puerca_Burgos_

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## LeBrok

Do you think Varna Culture will be R1b in substantial degree?

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## Greying Wanderer

If correct there's no reason to believe they started in the middle east.

The most likely place(s) for it to start are areas with large copper deposits like for example the Kargaly copper field which just so happens to be right next to Yamnaya.

(Although there may have been multiple start points.)

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## LeBrok

> If correct there's no reason to believe they started in the middle east.
> 
> The most likely place(s) for it to start are areas with large copper deposits like for example the Kargaly copper field which just so happens to be right next to Yamnaya.
> 
> (Although there may have been multiple start points.)


I'm not sure if place of natural resources can dictate where idea is born. Pots were not invented in place where most clay exists. Steam engine wasn't invented in a country with most wood or water, or nuclear reactor close to uranium ore. It is just enough if resource is available for the invention. Good ideas spread quickly, and people are enough mobile and inventive to get the material for the idea to keep going and going.

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## LeBrok

I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)

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## Tomenable

> I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA.


Smith is the most common surname in Britain. Kowalski (= "Smithski") is the most common surname in Poland. The profession was hereditary. If one clan invented furnace metallurgy, they kept the secret to themselves for as long as possible. 

And all early smiths around Western Eurasia were likely descended from those very first smiths.

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## Tomenable

> I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA.


After ENF = 60% G2a does anyone still believe in rapid cultural transitions without migrating people involved? :) It is obvious that early diffusion of advanced metallurgy = a demographic event (migrations of hereditary smiths). "Early Blacksmith Modal Haplotype" surely existed.

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## Tomenable

> Do you think Varna Culture will be R1b in substantial degree?


I guess so.

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## Greying Wanderer

> I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)


There are hereditary smithing clans in Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...de_blacksmiths




> A single family in the village is designated to produce blacksmiths.





> Bamana society is also endogamous, so blacksmith families are the only Blacksmiths in the village and they hold a very high status, due to the extreme power and responsibility that they possess


.

Note the connection to magic.

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## Greying Wanderer

> I'm not sure if place of natural resources can dictate where idea is born. Pots were not invented in place where most clay exists. Steam engine wasn't invented in a country with most wood or water, or nuclear reactor close to uranium ore. It is just enough if resource is available for the invention. Good ideas spread quickly, and people are enough mobile and inventive to get the material for the idea to keep going and going.


If no copper how could they get the idea?




> It is just enough if resource is available for the invention.


If basic copper working had already become a thing so people elsewhere imported copper and then one of those groups invented a new process and there was a secondary expansion because of that new process then yes I agree - and that could have been the middle east or anywhere else - but I think the first, basic form of copper working would start where it was found naturally.

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## Tomenable

Thanks Greying Wanderer, great find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...de_blacksmiths




> The Mande blacksmiths hold important positions in society. Blacksmiths are often called upon by the chief for guidance in major decisions regarding the village. The power of the blacksmith is thought to be so great that they are also feared. Mande Blacksmiths control a force called nyama. This means that they control all energy and power in the village as well as the makeup and workings of the Mande society (Ross). The ability to control such a force is not given to just anyone. A single family in the village is designated to produce blacksmiths. The boys from that family are taught the daliluw, “the secret knowledge about the use and nature of nyama”(Ross).
> 
> “Nyama is the foundation that nourishes the institution of smithing, so that it may nourish society, is the simple axiom that knowledge can be power when properly articulated…. One must first possess it (nyama) in substantial amounts and then acquire the knowledge to manipulate and direct it to capitalize on its potential benefits. Acts that the difficult or dangerous—like hunting, or smelting, and forging iron—demand that a greater responsibility of energy and a higher degree of knowledge be possessed by the actor." (Perani, Smith 1998: 71)
> 
> They begin training at an early age, as an apprentice in order to master the techniques of blacksmithing by the time they reach adulthood and become a Mande Blacksmith.
> 
> The Bamana society is very similar to the Mande. Bamana society is also endogamous, so blacksmith families are the only Blacksmiths in the village and they hold a very high status, due to the extreme power and responsibility that they possess. Bamana Blacksmiths are also experts in divination, amulet making, as well as the practice of medicines due to their extensive knowledge of the Spirit of Ogun. Bamana Blacksmiths are responsible with the well being of the villagers and the safety of the village. This power like the Mande is driven by their control over nyama.
> 
> The Bamana training of young blacksmiths lasts about eight years. After completion of the apprenticeship the young blacksmith is ready to begin forging tools, weapons, and ritual masks and staffs, used for ceremonial purposes. “When used actively and sacrificed to, iron staffs continue to gain and radiate power, the power to protect, cure, fight, honor, lead, and repel” (Perani, Smith 1998: 71-72).


You will also notice that in Africa within the same tribe there are often genetic differences between farmers and blacksmiths:

*"Ari Blacksmith"* is in terms of autosomal DNA not the same as *"Ari Cultivator"* (probably also different clades of Y-DNA):

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## Tomenable

More:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...western_Africa




> Blacksmiths emerged in western Africa around 1500 BC. They are feared in some societies for their skill in metalworking, which is considered a form of magic, but universally revered by for their technological pioneering. While common people fear the power of the blacksmith, they are highly admired and hold high social status. Because the trade is so specialized and dangerous, blacksmiths are often requisitioned by towns and villages where there are none (Ross). Other ironworking societies such as the Mande people of Mali and the Bamana exist in West Africa.


Someone should test Y-DNA haplogroups of different Western African blacksmiths.

It might turn out that most of them share a common ancestor who lived ca. 1500 BC.

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## ElHorsto

> *ATP3* (who was R1b-M269+ ???) from Iberia was among burials classified as *"Pre-Bell Beaker"* by archaeologists:
> 
> Check this paper - *"An unusual Pre-bell beaker copper age cave burial context from El Portalon de Cueva Mayor site (Sierra de Atapuerca, Burgos)":*
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...apuerca_Burgos
> 
> https://www.academia.edu/16986146/Pr...puerca_Burgos_


When they say "Pre-Bell-Beaker" do they mean that he was no BB or that he was ancestral to BB?

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## Angela

> I'm sceptical if one haplogroup could capture an idea, like bronze smelting, and run with it for centuries or even millennia spreading their Y DNA. It seems to be more of a Superhero realm than normal people. It is a nice read though, and kept me going for a while. :)


I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others? Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker? Corded Ware barely had copper metallurgy when it was expanding.

As for J2, it's obvious that at some point J2 dominated cultures became highly skilled metalworkers. 

I'm skeptical about all this speculation in the absence of hard data. 

As for Iberian Bell Beaker, we should know very soon what yDna and autosomal signature they carried. I will say that a lot of the Beaker settlements in Iberia look coastal, with the large riverine ones perhaps spreading from the coast:

For another view of the origin of Bell Beaker-The dogma of the Iberian origin of Bell Beaker:
http://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php...e/view/112/113

If it didn't originate in Iberia all bets would be off.

Does anyone know whether the Bell Beaker samples being tested by the Reich Lab include any from Los Millares? You'd have to be very careful about the dating though, as there are definitely different stages, an earlier Megalithic one and then a Bell Beaker one. Also, it's always looked to me as if there was definitely a new population movement into the area, and not necessarily from Europe.

Where they came from and what y signatures they carried is a whole other story.

"Los Millares was constructed in three phases, each phase increasing the level of fortification. The fortification is not unique to the Mediterranean area of the 3rd millinnum; other sites with bastions and defensive towers include the sites of Jericho, Ai, and Aral (in Palestine) and Lebous, Boussargues and Campe of Laures( in France)."
http://archaeology.about.com/od/mter...s_millares.htm

Their y signature might have been J2 for all we know.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares
"Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi inSardinia have been noticed.

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## Tomenable

> I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?


Is it about me ??? Of course I'm not saying that metallurgy came to Europe from Yamnaya.

I'm saying that R1b men from the Balkans or from the Middle East introduced metallurgy to Yamnaya.




> Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker?


They were just native Farmers of the area - not people responsible for spreading metallurgy.

What does it mean "copper worker" - physical labourer, simple miner? Surely not a skilled blacksmith.

----------


## Tomenable

> Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally


Powhatan were autosomally 100% Native Americans in 1620. But it doesn't disprove the existence of Jamestown.  :Smile: 

When John *Smith* (what a coincidence!) came to North America, he did not immediately fell in love with Pocahontas.

Admixture between locals and newcomers always takes time (both groups are initially genetically distinct). When a new population mixes into a pre-existing gene pool, the percentage of the invader's genes within the population must be ~0 at time=0, by definition. The growth of admixture must be something like a linear slope, from a percentage of 0 at time=0 to a percentage X at time T. A population can't "start off as pretty heavy" anything. Individuals interbreed one by one. Entire cultural groups do not instantaneously interbreed. 

Intermarriages of two groups result in a continuous change in admixture from zero to X, and do not require a large percent at t=0.

It could be that most of Remedello population was still Middle Neolithic autosomally, but some immigrants were already there.

----------


## Tomenable

> When they say "Pre-Bell-Beaker" do they mean that he was no BB or that he was ancestral to BB?


I'm not 100% sure, but I think that they mean "ancestral to BB".

----------


## Tomenable

> and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools


This doesn't really tell us anything about Oetzi's profession.

Right now I'm using a smartphone - but I didn't produce it.

Why do you assume that Oetzi personally made those tools?

----------


## bicicleur

> I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others? Have they also forgotten that Remedello in northern Italy had copper metallurgy and were I2a typically Middle Neolithic people autosomally, and that G2a Oetzi used copper tools and more importantly had arsenic in his blood and so might have been a copper worker? Corded Ware barely had copper metallurgy when it was expanding.
> 
> As for J2, it's obvious that at some point J2 dominated cultures became highly skilled metalworkers. 
> 
> I'm skeptical about all this speculation in the absence of hard data. 
> 
> As for Iberian Bell Beaker, we should know very soon what yDna and autosomal signature they carried. I will say that a lot of the Beaker settlements in Iberia look coastal, with the large riverine ones perhaps spreading from the coast:
> 
> For another view of the origin of Bell Beaker-The dogma of the Iberian origin of Bell Beaker:
> ...


just for the record, Los Millares were not BB, at least not in origin
first BB appeared *outside* the walls of Zambujal in Portugal
Zumbujal was a walled city in which copper ores were smelted, just like Los Millares
Los Millares is a few centuries older than first BB

anyway it would be nice to have some early Iberian BB DNA, and Csépel BB DNA would be very interesting too

----------


## LeBrok

> If no copper how could they get the idea?


I was just saying that invention of metallurgy doesn't need to correlate with areas of most abondance of metal.

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## Tomenable

> anyway it would be nice to have some early Iberian BB DNA


David Reich's team is currently working on it, AFAIK.

*As for me* - I expect R1b to be *a minority* in early Iberian BB, but I think some will be there.

The majority will be typically Megalithic haplogroups.

It seems that Davidski (Eurogenes/Polishgenes) thinks that there will be no R1b in Iberian BB.

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## Angela

> Tomenable;479662]Is it about me ??? Of course I'm not saying that metallurgy came to Europe from Yamnaya.
> 
> I'm saying that R1b men from the Balkans or from the Middle East introduced metallurgy to Yamnaya.


No, I wasn't thinking of you. As to the second statement, how can we possibly know whether the metal workers of the Balkans were R1b? The likelihood is surely greater at this point that they were either G2a like Oetzi or I2a. That's not to say there might not have been some R1b among them. The point is that this is total speculation with not one scrap of data upon which to base it. 




> They were just native Farmers of the area - not people responsible for spreading metallurgy.


No, actually they weren't just native farmers of the area. They had many of the indicia of an Indo-European culture. That's why Gimbutas, David Anthony, and Jean Manco were originally convinced that they were people of the steppe. They were also indeed skilled metallurgists.

See:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-2685.html
"Yamnaya elements in the Remedello culture, such as single graves, copper-arsenic alloys and tanged daggers."

"The Remedello-Rinaldone complex (3200-2500 B.C.) bears all the marks of an Indo-European invasion: a new style of ceramics, a new burial rite, changes in the social structure, the introduction of a warrior aristocracy, the introduction of metallurgy, the horse and the chariot."

The Remedello samples from Allentoft et al are all I2a and are dated as follows:
Sample: RISE487
cal BC: 3483-3107 cal BC (Remedello I)
Sample: RISE489
cal BC: 2908-2578 cal BC (Remedello I-II)
Sample: RISE486
cal BC: 2134-1773 cal BC (Remedello III)

Two out of the three are after David Anthony's dates for the move up the Danube of the Yamnaya people (the earliest date given is 3100 BC and the later one is 2800 BC). One out of the three is very late indeed. Yet, still I2a and still autosomally Oetzi like. 

Obviously, they were also already working with arsenical copper in Remedello I, before any of these movements, because Oetzi was carrying a Remedello style copper ax in 3300 BC.

I think the early technology probably thus did come from the Balkan However, there's no R1b around to date. (That early mine in Liguria is dated to 3500 BC.)

The Bell Beaker phase is not until 2400 BC, and the Bell Beaker metallurgy here is actually less advanced, which makes me think that if there was any influx of steppe people, this is when it took place. 

The only autosomal change is in the very late Bell Beaker phase, in one sample, and it's very slight.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/...hp/t-1389.html

See: Allentoft et al:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture14507.html

Cultural and technological changes are not always brought about by large movements of people. The Fu et al paper has pointed that out in showing that regardless of the cultural similarities the Gravettian of Europe had nothing to do with Mal'ta. 




> What does it mean "copper worker" - physical labourer, simple miner? Surely not a skilled blacksmith.


All we know is that he carried a Remedello style ax, from metal mined in Italy, and they found copper and arsenic during an analysis of his hair, so metallurgy was taking place and he was taking part in it.

"Ötzi’s hair also offered clues about the time in which he lived and his potential occupation. Analysis of Ötzi’s hair found traces of arsenic and copper particles and when combined with the copper axe which was found alongside his remains, some researchers have determined that he was involved in copper smelting."

*A close examination – Ötzi’s axe*The metal for the axe edge was smelted from copper ore. It was then heated into a molten state and cast. Finally shaping was accomplished by cold-forging. The edge shows clear signs of use and resharpening with a whetstone. 

I suppose it's also possible that Otzi got that copper and arsenic in him when sharpening the blade?

Now, since Otzi and his ax are dated to 3300 BC, and the axe is Remedello type, the people of Remedello were doing this work before any movement from the steppe. (In fact, Otzi's axe is older than the oldest Remedello axe found.)Again, I think it's Balkan and if the technology was not brought by G2a people, might have been brought by I2a people. After all, Remedello seems to be all I2a, and for hundreds of years.

https://books.google.com/books?id=kQ...20type&f=false

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> More:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacks...western_Africa
> 
> 
> 
> Someone should test Y-DNA haplogroups of different Western African blacksmiths.
> 
> It might turn out that most of them share a common ancestor who lived ca. 1500 BC.


Yes I've been hoping someone would do that.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

@Angela





> I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?



It's a bunch of ideas jumbled together so to clarify what I'm saying is:


1) The idea of endogamous metal working castes spreading certain dna in small amounts over wide areas. This possibility is a thing in itself - separate from what specific dna it was and where from.


2) Then if (1) is correct a debate over where from.


3) The idea that if (2) is correct there might be stages to it related to basic vs advanced metallurgy i.e. basic copper working is cold working - hammering copper into simple shapes like beads - like the steppe guy with 200+ copper beads. Later advances brought smelting etc into the mix. My view is that the first stage would most likely occur where copper is easily found on the surface. Later advances might happen elsewhere and lead to similar but possibly different dna caste expansions on that basis.


My view probably wasn't clear but it's that the first cold working stage would likely start in regions like Kargaly (there may be others as well) because of the size of the copper field. I don't think the more advanced stages necessarily did - and in fact I think it is *unlikely* simply due to lack of wood - so a backflow of the more advanced processes onto the steppe wouldn't surprise me.


If the Kargaly part is true - and maybe it isn't - then for me the most likely location for the smelting advance would be nearby locations that had both lots of copper and lots of wood e.g. Caucasus, Balkans and *if* there were secondary expansions caused by advances in metallurgy *and* the caste idea is correct then the ydna associated could flip with the advances (if you see what I mean).


For example
- cold working caste with dna y1 from Kargaly
- dna y1 moves to Caucasus/Balkans, develops more advanced metallurgy, picks up dna y2
- dna y2 moves to Cyprus
- dna y2 moves to Iberia


#


so
- agree with the possibility of the metal working caste
- disagree over where the first stage may have started
- neutral where secondary stages may have started

That may be clearer.

----------


## LeBrok

> Smith is the most common surname in Britain. Kowalski (= "Smithski") is the most common surname in Poland. The profession was hereditary. If one clan invented furnace metallurgy, they kept the secret to themselves for as long as possible. 
> 
> And all early smiths around Western Eurasia were likely descended from those very first smiths.


It prove your point you would need to present data that haplogroups of Kowalski or Smiths are substantially different from haplogroups of general population. Are there Kowalski or Smith families projects, and results available online?

----------


## LeBrok

> After ENF = 60% G2a does anyone still believe in rapid cultural transitions without migrating people involved? :) It is obvious that early diffusion of advanced metallurgy = a demographic event (migrations of hereditary smiths). "Early Blacksmith Modal Haplotype" surely existed.


There is a difference. Spreading farming required spreading farming genes. So far there was no HG genetic community in Eurasia who learned to farm without genetic transfer, not even recent prairie Indians or Australian Aborigines. Don't take me wrong, they can understand the concept, they just don't care for it. And of course some individuals in these communities will be up for it, but not the general population.
Now unlike farming, spread of metallurgy didn't require spreading genes with knowledge. Sure a trade used to run in family as hereditary thing, but I'm not sure if it had trans-cultural effect. However if it is true, then we need to find out who had spread clay pots and ceramic in general into all hunter gatherer communities of Eurasia?

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## Tomenable

> Spreading farming required spreading farming genes.


What ??? Sorry but farming is much easier to learn than mastering the art of metal working.

So spreading advanced metallurgy required spreading even more of metallurgical genes.

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## Tomenable

BTW - it is clear that modern so called "EEF" admixture in Europe is not in fact EEF, but something which came later.

Because G2a in Europe is almost extinct today, but EEF is not. Probably more "EEF-like" admixture came with R1b.

Unless you believe that all of EEF admixture in Europe today was mediated via women!

But Steppe admixture could be mediated to Western Europe via CWC women as well.

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## LeBrok

> What ??? Sorry but farming is much easier to learn than mastering the art of metal working.
> .


Nobody said it is very hard to learn. It is about changing life style, liking it, working all the time tending to animals and fields, eating a lot of starches and liking it and staying healthy with such diet, etc. Most of these adaptations are genetic in core. Teaching and learning farming skills is an easy part. Doing it and living it is difficult for HGs. ;)

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## Tomenable

> Doing it and living it is difficult for HGs. ;)


And that's why modern Europe is entirely dominated by Hunter-Gatherer Y-DNA haplogroups - R1b, R1a, I1 and I2 ???

All those haplogroups were part of WHG, SHG, EHG (perhaps also CHG): none of them came with Early Neolithic Farmers.

ENF males failed in Europe, they almost got exterminated by descendants of Hunter-Gatherers, who took their women.

Even your and my Y-DNA comes from either EHG, WHG or CHG - despite your Pro-Farmer attitude... :)))

----------


## Tomenable

Well, R1a and R1b could be originally ANE haplogroups.

----------


## LeBrok

> And that's why modern Europe is entirely dominated by Hunter-Gatherer Y-DNA haplogroups - R1b, R1a, I1 and I2 ???
> 
> All those haplogroups were part of WHG, SHG, EHG (perhaps also CHG): none of them came with Early Neolithic Farmers.
> 
> ENF males failed in Europe, they almost got exterminated by descendants of Hunter-Gatherers, who took their women.
> 
> Even your and my Y-DNA comes from either EHG, WHG or CHG - despite your Pro-Farmer attitude... :)))


Y is only 2% of DNA, responsible for making a man, not making a farmer or not. All Europeans have at least 40% of EEF genes, and this is where farming predisposition is. Prove me wrong and find pure HG community who took to farming. All existing HGs were exposed to farmers and their knowledge of farming for few hundred years now. You shouldn't have a problem finding them, right? All it takes, according to you, is to learn how. It should be easy. :)))

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## Greying Wanderer

> It prove your point you would need to present data that haplogroups of Kowalski or Smiths are substantially different from haplogroups of general population. Are there Kowalski or Smith families projects, and results available online?


Difficult in Europe but in places like Nepal there are groups which still contain caste based professions and some of those groups have been dna tested but as far as i'm aware there wasn't any attempt to see if the group dna had professional structure within it i.e. if the copper workers were one thing and the saddle makers something else.

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## Greying Wanderer

> There is a difference. Spreading farming required spreading farming genes. So far there was no HG genetic community in Eurasia who learned to farm without genetic transfer, not even recent prairie Indians or Australian Aborigines. Don't take me wrong, they can understand the concept, they just don't care for it. And of course some individuals in these communities will be up for it, but not the general population.
> Now unlike farming, spread of metallurgy didn't require spreading genes with knowledge. Sure a trade used to run in family as hereditary thing, but I'm not sure if it had trans-cultural effect. *However if it is true, then we need to find out who had spread clay pots and ceramic in general into all hunter gatherer communities of Eurasia?*


Personally I think that is maybe where the East Asian admixture comes from. There were pottery using sedentary HGs around the Black Sea before pottery reached the middle east.

edit: which hints at the route taken

----------


## arvistro

I think it was easier to inherit smith profession than chieftain's. If we talk about military democracy societies?
Or so I heard. Happy to be proven wrong.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

Fun Fact. In late medieval / early modern Greek we used the term 'γύφτος' (='gypsy') with the meaning "smith, ironworker". I wonder where they got their "metallurgical genes".

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## Greying Wanderer

> I think it was easier to inherit smith profession than chieftain's. If we talk about military democracy societies?
> Or so I heard. Happy to be proven wrong.


Yes. If there were metal working castes in the copper age like the existing ones in India, Africa etc then you'd imagine they wouldn't stay completely endogamous forever especially if that caste system broke down - but maybe they did for a while?

In which case evidence might show up in ancient dna or in cultures where the caste system lasted longest? For example the Newars of Nepal have a variety of ydna and also profession castes. It would be interesting if there was structure to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_...nd_communities

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...mportant-races

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## LeBrok

> Difficult in Europe but in places like Nepal there are groups which still contain caste based professions and some of those groups have been dna tested but as far as i'm aware there wasn't any attempt to see if the group dna had professional structure within it i.e. if the copper workers were one thing and the saddle makers something else.


Perhaps there is some validity to it.

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## MOESAN

to Greying Wanderer:
your #32 post is a good starting point, I think

----------


## Angela

> BTW - it is clear that modern so called "EEF" admixture in Europe is not in fact EEF, but something which came later.
> 
> Because G2a in Europe is almost extinct today, but EEF is not. Probably more "EEF-like" admixture came with R1b.
> 
> Unless you believe that all of EEF admixture in Europe today was mediated via women!
> 
> But Steppe admixture could be mediated to Western Europe via CWC women as well.


None of that is clear at all. In fact, the data points to the exact opposite conclusion.

See the following analysis which has two "farmer" clusters and a Yamnaya cluster as well. Look at the "farmer" numbers for the Nordic Bronze Age. You can even see when the Yamnaya came in and the drop in the farmer numbers began. They're not very different at all from the Haak et al numbers for the ancient samples. They're also not far from from modern levels.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-O...RzQ/view?pli=1



Areas to the south are going to have higher levels in part because there wasn't as large a refugia or reservoir for the WHG, and partly because of population crashes in central Europe. 

Whether some people like it or not, the Near Eastern farmers had a large input into the genomes of all Europeans. 

As for this question of uniparental markers, haven't we learned, with J2 EHGs, Spanish farmer R1bs, and now an R1b WHG that they are unreliable in terms of total genetic make-up?

In terms of this association of certain yDna lines with certain professions, it's possible, but I'm personally wary of generalizing what may be the case in India, for example, to the situation everywhere in the world. They're quite mad for divisions of people into multiple isolated breeding groups, with the unavoidable consequences for genetic fitness. 

Generally, also, it's important to keep in mind, I think, that civilization grows by increments. Farming was a huge leap forward. Actual metallurgy arose in that context.

----------


## Rethel

> Y is only 2% of DNA, responsible for making a man, not making a farmer or not.


But this 2% makes you who you are.

Your identity is not based on your liver or intestine,
which can be even 100% genetically pygmies, but
you are who you are, becasue of your sex 2% gene.
98% id about flesh form. 2% is about humanity. 
And this is most important part of you, not toes.

----------


## LeBrok

> But this 2% makes you who you are.
> 
> Your identity is not based on your liver or intestine,
> which can be even 100% genetically pygmies, but
> you are who you are, becasue of your sex 2% gene.
> 98% id about flesh form. 2% is about humanity. 
> And this is most important part of you, not toes.


Oh now I understand, 2% makes your humanity, which is your penis and mustache, lol. The rest, 98% of "inhumanity" genes give you brain with logic and emotions, skin colour, handsome face (or not), coordination, sense of rhythm or lack of it, digestive preferences for certain foods, traits of character, ability to speak and love, etc. However in your case, your 98% definitely lacks logic, kindness and good manners. Perhaps, your 2% can help you with it. ;)

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## Rethel

> Oh now I understand, 2% makes your humanity, which is your penis and mustache, lol. The rest, 98% of "inhumanity" genes give you brain with logic and emotions, skin colour, handsome face (or not), coordination, sense of rhythm or lack of it, digestive preferences for certain foods, traits of character, ability to speak and love, etc. However in your case, your 98% definitely lacks logic, kindness and good manners. Perhaps, your 2% can help you with it. ;)


As always...

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## MOESAN

It is only a thought newly come to my mind:
Metals could be linked to Y-R1 or Y-J2 fellows, even if I think that the Y-R1 fellows were perhaps not the best placed to promote them; it's true Y-R1a or Y-R1b are large bags and were in fact a family whose children lived very different lifes. 
But I begin to see that at Chalcolithic and Early BA in Central Europe Y-I2 of any kind (but more some of the Y-I2a2) begun to improve their health or their reproductive rate, as in Hungary or in Unetice (not speaking of too "familial" Liechtenstein Cave/Untrut); Would it be a resurgence at metals after Neolithic? Linked to what precisely? more attrait or skills for metallic weapons send by others? I 'm eager to see more ancient Y-DNA of these times.

----------


## Voyager

> I tend to agree. I see some people still pushing the whole "metallurgy in western Europe came from Yamnaya people" scenario. Have they forgotten that Yamnaya was initially very primitive in terms of metallurgy, and borrowed the technology from others?


Concerning the Yamnaya steppe scenario.Let 's note that Corded Ware people are so far mostly R1a and Yamnaya R1b. Furthermore, all R1b-L51 aDNA are in Western Europe in Bronze Age but nothing in Pontic Steppe. It's look like that the strange Yamnaya migration scenario had wheels, horses but, more importantly, it missed the men and his Y-DNA.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> It is only a thought newly come to my mind:
> Metals could be linked to Y-R1 or Y-J2 fellows, even if I think that the Y-R1 fellows were perhaps not the best placed to promote them; it's true Y-R1a or Y-R1b are large bags and were in fact a family whose children lived very different lifes. 
> *But I begin to see that at Chalcolithic and Early BA in Central Europe Y-I2 of any kind (but more some of the Y-I2a2) begun to improve their health or their reproductive rate*, as in Hungary or in Unetice (not speaking of too "familial" Liechtenstein Cave/Untrut); Would it be a resurgence at metals after Neolithic? Linked to what precisely? more attrait or skills for metallic weapons send by others? I 'm eager to see more ancient Y-DNA of these times.


Speculating

if ydna I
- was associated with mountainous regions for some reason
- in the metal ages, miners and metal workers moved to those mountainous areas looking for ore
that might have led to a local alliance between ydna I and R1 in one or more regions

then

if miners and metal workers were generally the first to get a good supply of
- copper weapons
- bronze weapons
- iron weapons
you might see dramatic expansions of ydna R1 and I together from ore producing regions at various times.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> Concerning the Yamnaya steppe scenario.Let 's note that Corded Ware people are so far mostly R1a and Yamnaya R1b. Furthermore, all R1b-L51 aDNA are in Western Europe in Bronze Age but nothing in Pontic Steppe. It's look like that the strange Yamnaya migration scenario had wheels, horses but, more importantly, it missed the men and his Y-DNA.


If the R1b in modern Europeans did start on the steppe then it seems they must have expanded first and were then displaced on the steppe by the R1a expansion.

----------


## Voyager

> If the R1b in modern Europeans did start on the steppe then it seems they must have expanded first and were then displaced on the steppe by the R1a expansion.


This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.


true enough

----------


## MOESAN

> Speculating
> 
> if ydna I
> - was associated with mountainous regions for some reason
> - in the metal ages, miners and metal workers moved to those mountainous areas looking for ore
> that might have led to a local alliance between ydna I and R1 in one or more regions
> 
> then
> 
> ...


I red this suggestion some time ago. I suppose it was yours?
All the way, it's not stupid at all and deserves attention.
Mountains? Curiously enough, a lot of the today peaks in Europe are in mountainous regions. But we would need to have more detailed subclades of y-I2a2. The mountainous aspect could look evident enough if we consider that during first developments of Neolithic way of life, the newcomers could have pushed or induced the "autochtonous population" (Y-I2 for the most) into remote corners of the lands, far from fertile plains. What puzzles me is the very spotty distribution of Y-I2a2 compared to big bits of lands occuped by Y-I2a1b as a whole. Which I2a2 took part in the metals story? I don't know for sure. The L28 one? (if I don't mistake the subclade name): I think into the big concentration of I2a2 in Switzerland (Celts?) but I'm not sure it's the same dominant clade in Northern Germany. I 'll have to go deeper if I find data.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> I red this suggestion some time ago. I suppose it was yours?
> All the way, it's not stupid at all and deserves attention.
> Mountains? Curiously enough, a lot of the today peaks in Europe are in mountainous regions. But we would need to have more detailed subclades of y-I2a2. The mountainous aspect could look evident enough if we consider that during first developments of Neolithic way of life, the newcomers could have pushed or induced the "autochtonous population" (Y-I2 for the most) into remote corners of the lands, far from fertile plains. What puzzles me is the very spotty distribution of Y-I2a2 compared to big bits of lands occuped by Y-I2a1b as a whole. Which I2a2 took part in the metals story? I don't know for sure. The L28 one? (if I don't mistake the subclade name): I think into the big concentration of I2a2 in Switzerland (Celts?) but I'm not sure it's the same dominant clade in Northern Germany. I 'll have to go deeper if I find data.


Yes. It struck me some time ago if you subtracted the ydna I1 that is thought to have been carried along with the Germanic expansion then what you have left correlates quite strongly with mountainous regions.

If that correlation was correct then it made me think ydna I might be connected to refuge survival and then later in some places (Pyrenees? Harz? Scandi?) a later movement into those mountains of miners/metalworkers might have forged an alliance with the local variety of ydna I.

In other regions maybe that mining connection was never made and so the local variety of ydna I never expanded out of the refuge.

If correct it will very much be a local sub-clade thing rather than ydna I as a whole (although the pattern may have repeated more than once).

#

edit

I was thinking something similar with G and J a while back (as IJ are related). I was thinking J in mountain refuges somewhere getting picked up by a farmer expansion somehow and carried along with it like rocks in a glacier - although not so sure about that now.

----------


## MOESAN

IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe. 
When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.

----------


## Greying Wanderer

> IN fact in previous dreams of mine I wondered if some Y-I2a2 were not the "first" BBs taking Y-R1b in a metals trip around Western Europe. 
> When calculating the ratio of Y-I2a2 opposed to Y-I2a1 and Y-I1, the denser places are in Western Europe, not in North or South or East, as well among future Celtic as among Ligurian or Italic world, born in some way around the BBs network.


Yes if the correlation (ydna I and mountains) exists it could be the other way round.

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## MOESAN

> This does not solve the fact that there is no R1b-L51 in the Steppes at all so far but only among early Bronze Age Bell Beakers in Western Europe. If R1b came from the Steppes in 4500 bp we should find this 6000 years old mutation R1b-L51 there, this is not the case so far then I doubt. I would wait for an R1b-L51 in the Steppe aDNA first to clear these doubts.


Good remark. Without any prejudice, I say: have we Y-DNA of Western Yamnaya??? I think we have only the Samara sort?
If you know other Yamnaya people studied for Y-DNA, let me know. I know some other sites had been studied but I forgot their localization. Perhaps I missed some posts.
Thanks in advance.

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## Tomenable

Sample I1635 (2619-2465 BC) from Kura-Araxes culture is R1b:

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...92603424456704

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1635/

This culture is definitely linked with the diffusion of metallurgy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture

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## LeBrok

> Sample I1635 (2619-2465 BC) from Kura-Araxes culture is R1b:
> 
> https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...92603424456704
> 
> This culture is definitely linked with the diffusion of metallurgy:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E...Araxes_culture


More precisely:
I1635 (Armenia_EBA) is R1b1-M415(xM269)

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## Tomenable

Yes it is not M269 but some very rare (?) branch. It is also not V88.

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## Tomenable

It may be L389*, which exists in Armenia also today, albeit at low frequency.

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## MOESAN

withoutdenying the possible specific link of Y-R1b with metallurgy, I keepon with my Y-I2a2 story, at the mergin.
Y-I2a2a-M223,roughly today Germano-Scandinavian, withpicks in Germanyand North-East Sweden,is present at lower levels around the Black Sea, inNorth Russia, Eastern Romania/Moldova, Italy,Greece, West , North-Westand Southern Franceand also a bit in Near-East and North Africa. The presence in S-EEurope could be the result of Goths and other Varengians. Maybe a too"general" andspred SNPtomake conclusions?Accordingto Maciamo its other subclades check diverse events among whoseVikings and Normans moves.
itssubclade Y-I2a2a1-M284 is present in Britain and Portugal, rarer inIrelandexceptNorth-East butlinked there to supposed Pictish elites surely come from ScotlandspiteWikipedia speaks of Gaelic surnames.ALa Tène package doesn'nt infirm nor confrm both celtic origin.Itsown subcladeY-I2a2a1a-L126/S165 is the densest in Scotland, surely not an hazardresult evocatingPicts.Sure we could see in it a pre-Germanic haplo having participated inthe Germanics moves, maybe even before the great barbarian migrationsinto Britain and Iberia. A possible ancient mix germanic-celtic amongsome Picts? Ormore simply two distinct successive arrivals in North Britain, thelast with Anglo-Saxons and other Germanics ?
Y-I2a2b-L38/S154,found in Lichtenstein cave linked to Unstrut lateral culture ofUrnfields, seems more strictlylinked to Celtic or proto-Celtic ina post-BB context;thedominance of mt-H before mt-U5 there points also to a post-BB stage;it could be come from SouthernGermanyas the relatively high incidence in Switzerlandand Alsace among future places of La Tène seemspermitting.Ahigh enough density in Alpine Italy, Eastern France, Beneluxand Britain except Western Britain seems confirming that ; itcould be exemplary of celtic tribes of Belgia (other tribes weregermanic and maybe old macro-italic remote tribes living alongside).Someones spoke of a possible Dniestr-Carpathian trail until CentralEurope.
Iwould be glad iif I had confirmation of it. The Carpathian Romaniaseems having been rich for mt-H (H5 the most) since LN. Y-I2a2has been found among anDNA in Steppes too, but what subclade andwhere from ? One of my old dreams was some subclades of Y-I2a2were strong enough around the Cucuteni-Tripolye area and after sometime of isolation, participated in the metals development ofEast-Central Europe along bearers of other Y-haplos.
Justfor the fun. 
Concerning Y-R1b in Armenia and Southern Caucasus I maintain to date my first statements: seems more kind of dead end than the center of diffusion of the M269 clades involved in Eurasia big trips. Maybe North Armenia was crossed by other R1b people not staying there and passing northward. I don't know just now.

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## Tomenable

Bump. 

I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!

Including Varna culture!

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## MOESAN

I confess I never did guess this! (shame on me)
I 'll try - if I can - to look at the geographic/mesologic localization of all these Y-R1b and also I2a2 of ancient Balkans

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> Bump. 
> 
> I was right about R1b all over Mesolithic and Post-Mesolithic Balkans!
> 
> Including Varna culture!


What exactly does that mean? As in, not literally, but inference-wise?

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## Saetrus

Hovhannisyan et al, 2014 also found that the variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in eastern Anatolia, the Kura-Araxes sample belonging to a brother clade ofR1b-M269 also supports those findings.

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## CrazyDonkey

From _Ancient Europe_ by Stuart Piggott (an Oldie but Goodie, p. 102-3):




> Our technological enquiry into the beginnings of European metalworking can now be taken to its final stage with the examination of some rather puzzling phenomena. In an area of southern central Europe, north of the Alps and lying roughly between the modern towns of Bern, Vienna, Frankfurt, and Dresden, a consistent series of new types of copper tools, weapons, and ornaments appear overlapping with the end of the Bell-Beaker phase, but not themselves of beaker forms. Furthermore, they replace the beaker metal types and are the prototypes for the whole rich series of bronzes which follow thereafter and dominate the greater part of Europe. The new features include the techniques of riveting a dagger-blade into its haft instead of using a tang as in the beaker tradition; the use of ornaments including spiral wire pendants and ingot-torcs (necklets with returned ends that could also be used as units of copper); and the use of garments fastened by pins instead of buttons....They owe nothing to anything which goes before in Europe, but riveted daggers were the normal Near Eastern type, and the ingot-torcs and specific pin forms do in fact occur in several Near Eastern sites, but especially those in Syria such as Byblos and Ugarit, during a limited period of time around 2000—1800 B.C. Furthermore, the grave-finds in central Europe show a swing-over in the warrior's equipment from the beaker tradition of bow and arrow, to that of the dagger and axe: this change in weapons means a change in tactics to one also current in contemporary Syria. (Fig. 56) 
> 
> It looks therefore as if shortly after 2000 B.C. contact was established between the metal-smiths and merchants of Syria and the peoples and copper ores of south-central Europe; spectrographic analysis shows that the metal deposits of the Tyrol and elsewhere in central Europe were now being worked. But by what route could such contact be made? The distribution in Europe of the types in question show that while some are found as far east as the River Tisza, they do not occur further east, and the majority are not found further down the Danube than just beyond Vienna. A route up the Danube from the east to south-central Europe seems then unlikely, and we must consider the possibility of trade from the head of the Adriatic over a 200 mile-long route probably crossing the Alps by the St Gothard Pass....And if we look for occasions which might prompt such merchant venturing from the Levant, the disturbed conditions precipitated by the Amorite and other raids at the beginning of the second millennium might well play their part, with the dislocation of previous trading arrangements, and a consequent impetus to seek new metal resources in the outer barbarian world.

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## Angela

> From _Ancient Europe_ by Stuart Piggott (an Oldie but Goodie, p. 102-3):


Very interesting. I need to look into it further.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> In another thread (link) I've argued that R1b-L51 (or pre-L51 ancestral lineages of L23) was never present on the Steppe, but was responsible for spreading early metallurgy directly from the Middle East to Western Europe:
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ice-Age-Europe
> 
> Here I present some evidence linking the rapid expansion of L23 lineages with the spread of metallurgy.
> 
> These are excerpts of "From Metallurgy to Bronze Age Civilizations" by Nissim Amzallag:
> 
> http://www.ajaonline.org/article/300
> ...


Great point about the Sardinians. I totally agree about L51 crossing the Med. to form the Beaker culture, again despite Olalde. L23 could be from West Asia or the Balkans, I'm not sure, but I suspect the Balkans. If not L23, then M269.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

> Those R1b Beakers first expanded eastward, towards Germany and Central Europe in general. Later in Germany (or in Central Europe in general) they mixed with immigrants from the Steppe, acquired Steppe admixture (perhaps mediated mostly via women) and some cultural elements. After that, there was a "back-migration" from Germany to Britain and other parts of Western Europe.
> 
> That's when modern subclades of R1b - such as L21, U152, etc. - really started to dominate numerically.
> 
> Those Beakers that had initially expanded from Iberia or South France were not necessarily already L21 or U152.
> 
> *They could be mostly L51*, L11*, P312*, U106*, etc.*. More common lineages likely expanded later.
> 
> ===============================
> ...



Entirely agreed, I can't see any other alternative that can explain the phylogeny. M269 in the Balkans, to L23 in Anatolia, to L51 across the Mediterranean in SW Europe and Z2103 still somewhere in West Asia. All the way, it seems like they were accompanied by I2a folks, which explains its presence in West Asia but also in Sardinia, Iberia etc. Then we have Z2103 migrating to the Steppe, and the Yamnaya expansions into the Balkans. L51 eventually meets with Corded Ware as L11 and they blend together under the dominance of the Beaker males to form Unetice. U106 then travels West in the direction of the Netherlands, further blending with Corded types in NW mainland Europe (picking up mainly R1a and I1). U106 would also go to Scandinavia. P312 is formed somewhere in between France and Germany, with DF27 going to Iberia, L21 travelling to Britanny as a launching point to Britain and Ireland, and also NW Iberia, and U152 going alpha as Hallstatt and later Le Tene. I'm also reasonably confident that the group that went to the Netherlands and later to Eastern Britain would have been pre-Germanic U106 - it seems likely to me.

Only points of issue are with languages and with metallurgy. With languages, given the Basque, this hypothesis only works if Western European languages are actually from the Corded Ware culture - they can't be from the Beaker folk, as that's way too old to fit in with the Indo-European family tree. This is completely reasonable as you'd be hard pressed to explain how a minority like the Beakers would change the language of the CWC that far out numbered them. In the case of the IE invasion of India, it's very different and on a much larger scale. With metallurgy, we have to explain how Bronze Age technology spread from East to West - it didn't come from Corded Ware and because it's from East to West it couldn't come from Iberian Beakers, so they would have had to pick it up, perhaps from the nearby Yamnaya. We know the Beakers and Yamnayas came into contact with one another from the spread of Beaker pottery, and we know that metallurgy isn't always spread by invasions (the Bronze Age wasn't entirely spread by R1b...), so it's not too unreasonable that the Beaker folk picked up the techniques.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

I genuinely think, through deduction, there's enough information to be very confident in the L51 Iberian Beaker hypothesis. Where the **** did the L51 come from basically! It can't have come from the Balkans as part of the Yamnaya expansion, which was so clearly Z2103 given the Z2103:L51 ratio of the Balkans, which discounts that as the source of Eastern Beaker Steppe. It can't have come from the Steppe through Europe via the Northern European plain with the Corded Ware culture, and it can't have come before it either (otherwise we would have Steppe DNA much earlier in Europe). It is also extremely unlikely it powered all the way to East-Central Europe from the Steppe through Corded Ware, firstly because the Steppe was dominated by Z2103 in the South and R1a in the North with no evidence of any L51 at all, but also because if it had done that it would have left virtually no trace, as we have none to follow - this is very unlikely. So it couldn't have come to Western Europe from the East.

If we imagine a mixture event, where the Steppe ancestry comes from blending with the Corded Ware folk, THEN we have a good picture. Here, the only plausible picture is that the R1b L51 comes from an Eastwards Beaker migration. 

This, to me, is foolproof. There's lots of other small hints, such as with phenotypes (looking at Baskid+Corded=North Atlantid), but there are a few potential holes (as mentioned above). 

First is language, which can easily be resolved by saying that the Beaker folk who imposed themselves above CW did so as a minority (like we know the Beaker folk always were), and so simply adopted the language of the CWC. When there isn't large scale population replacement, this tends to be the case - for example in Britain the incoming group did replace the language, but not so much in Iberia, where the population was far larger. The second issue is the spread of Bronze metallurgy clearly being from East to West - this can only truly be explained by the Beaker folk learning it somewhere, and we know that the Beaker folk came into contact with the Balkan arm of Yamnaya, where being metallurgists themselves they probably picked up the techniques. 

FOOLPROOF I SAY - FOOLPROOF!

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## MOESAN

Globular Amphora and CWC "cohabited" in some places some time, and we see BB's living almost side by side with CWC in some regions with here and there subsequent crossings, so we cannot do this statement that a clannic culture prevents by force and everytime another clannic culture to take some parts of lands, it occurred more than a time when these cultures were not in a too tight concurrence concerning economy; to allow just a passage accross their lands was even more easy I think.

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## ToBeOrNotToBe

I think this is pretty visionary to be honest - obviously some parts are wrong, but the gist of it I mean.

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