# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  New map of Red Sea (Horn of Africa) admixture

## Maciamo

I thought it'd be interesting to visualise the distribution of the K10a's Red Sea admixture. It peaks in Ethiopia and Somalia, the region of origin of Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b,and correlates fairly well with the distribution of E1b1b, except in northwestern Europe. Looks like E1b1b lineages were progressively diluted from the Levant to north-west Europe via the Balkans by intermarrying with local women for several millennia.



Here is the E1b1b map.




UPDATE:

One intriguing thing is the higher "Red Sea" admixture in southern Italy than in Greece and the Balkans. That could mean, as I had hypothesised, that E-V13 might have entered Europe by crossing over from Tunisia to Sicily, then to southern Italy and only after that to Greece and the Balkans. It is almost certain that E-M81 crossed directly from Morocco to Iberia sometime between the Late Palaeolithic and the Neolithic, so why wouldn't E-V13 (+ some E-M81 ?) been able to do the same ? That would explain the lower incidence of E-V13 in the Near East, especially in Anatolia and Syria, compared to Southeast Europe. That would also explain why there is also more E-M81 in southern and central Italy than in the Balkans. If it had come through the Near East its frequency would have diminished progressively from Anatolia to southern Italy. 

I am not saying that E1b1b didn't come with Neolithic farmers from the southern Levant to the Balkans as well. That could have been an additional migration, bringing more Southwest Asian admixture with such lineages as E-M34, E-V22, E-V12, J1 and T, and perhaps more E-V13 too.

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## Toscano

I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.

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## adamo

"What it is to be an italian"....Being italian means the northern half of your nation of origin received many Celtic invasions of which the majority had a Gallic origin, certain few tribes where Germanic and the Lombards may have been Scandinavian. It also means that the southern half of your country received much ancient greek colonizations and arrivals of anatolian peoples/Cretans and it clusters genetically much closer to countries in the Balkans such as Greece or Turkey and such similar regions of the Middle East; as an average I would use the Aegean Sea that separates Greece and Turkey as the "medium" southern italian. XD North Italy is a different country. In the northern half, maybe 15-20% of the males have Neolithic genetics; this % touches almost 50% in southern Italy; a European high along with Greece and such east Mediterranean regions and islands (Sicily,Crete).

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## Petter

As usual with cluster analyses, I wonder what kind of component this is. Is it a hybrid of European and Subsaharan African, or something which exists solely around the horn of Africa? Does the admixture signal mean shared ancestry, or actual admixture?

I think that the correlation with E1b looks too weak, though. There is a general cline of genes in that same direction. E was probably spread by the same early farmers which carried for example G.

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## Wilhelm

For Spain, some observations : 

Aragon is 0.7% and you have it mostly on the 1-2.5% range. 
Andalusia is 1.8% and you have it mostly on the 2.5-5.0% range

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## Nobody1

might be connected or might not be connected to E-M35 and its sub-clades M81/M78/M123 
very interesting none the less;

i think those are the K10a results (Red Sea incl.); 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0VVZPR0E#gid=0

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## Yaan

Well Bulgaria has about 1.5% combined for E-V12 and E-V22 and about 1.9% for E-M123.
Also I would like to see map for E-V13, it would be between 0% and 1% for North Africa, absent in the rest of Africa and about 2-3% for Near East. Yes E-V13 is European, but some people are afraid, because it does not serve their R1b dreams. E-M78 is North East African and Near East. E-V13 100% European. I would like to see map with E-V13 :)

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## Yaan

Is is strange that maps for T,J1,E-M81 and Q exist and for such big thing as E-V13 not!!!!

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## Fire Haired

It seems like it came to Iberia with E M81 from north Africa. I don't kno how to explain how it got to east Europe could be a lot of explaintions. It is probably somewhat popular in Italy and Greece mainly southern Italy because of inte rmarraige in Greco Roman age which I have been pushing a lot and everyone just thinks it is crazy. It is so obvious in aust dna and even y DNA there was huge amounts of mid eastern inter marriage in Italy, Greece, and southeast Europe that came in the GRECO ROMAN AGE NOT NEOITHIC. They are way too different from other Europeans and it is centered in the southern areas and why Italy and Greece maybe because of ancient Italian and Greek civilizations like Rome that were so connected to mid eastern civilization's. Look at Sardine how much west Asian and southwest Asian do they get in globe13 and what about Swiss they are right next to Italy but have west Asian and southwest Asian in the range as the rest of Europe. It came when the Italian ethnicity and identity had formed. I don't get why no thinks about this and assume everything mid eastern in Europe is Neolithic it gets really annoying.

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## autochthon

> I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.


Why would it make you sad to be Italian?

The interesting thing to me about this map is how low E1B concentration is in Crete even though the Red Sea distribution seems to conform.

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## Angela

I thought I would put all my comments in one post, or I would clog up the Board. 

Just generally, in Dienekes' own words, the Red Sea component is very similar to the Southwest Asian component.
"At *K=7*, a *Southwest Asian* component emerges which is highest in Arabia and East Africa. I could've called this Red Sea, but I've reserved this name for a similar component that emerges at higher K."

This Red Sea component, is, I think, perhaps related to female lines, and perhaps to y dna E, although I think the movement is from the Levant into the Horn of Africa rather than the reverse. I have wondered whether it is connected to the first groups of stationary hunter gatherers in the Levant.

As I stated in the SouthWest Asian cluster thread, I am becoming increasingly persuaded that y dna E separated from DE after the initial migration Out of Africa, and there was then back migration into Africa of different clades at different times. I think the autosomal portraits of people from the Horn of Africa and the content of recent papers makes that very clear.

The high prevalence of certain clades of J1 in the Arabian peninsula is, in some ways, a red herring, I think. The initial movement of J1 seems to have been from the northern near east into the southern areas, where it expanded dramatically, and dominated because of founder effect, and the patterns of endogomy practiced there. While in Arabia, the population would have picked up additional African which would at that point have been mostly female mediated in my opinion. The Islamic expansion would have moved more J1 north into the Levant, and along with it some additional African.

I would agree with previous posters that tracking the various clades of E1b1b is very important. The migration history and cultural affiliations of E-M81 and E-V13 are very different. 

@Fire Haired
You really should read Ralph and Coop et al

@Autochthon,
There are Italians, and then there are Italians.

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## Nobody1

> I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.


How so;
Did you really think Italy (founded 1861) was a genetic unity? 
Italians [North/Central/South] are genetically diverse to each other in fact not even related; 
this map about the _Red Sea admix._ once again illustrates it;

Ever thought about chopping your Italy tattoo into three parts?

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## Fire Haired

> How so;
> Did you really think Italy (founded 1861) was a genetic unity? 
> Italians [North/Central/South] are genetically diverse to each other in fact not even related; 
> this map about the _Red Sea admix._ once again illustrates it;
> 
> Ever thought about chopping your Italy tattoo into three parts?


Nobody1 so what if Italy was founded in 1861 that means nothing about Genetics just politics'. The Italic tribes from Urnfield culture just north of the Alps with mainly R1b S28(dominate in north and central Italy) migrated into Italy 3,200-3,000ybp and spread from their. They don't tell the full ancestry of course of Italian people there deifntley is a big junk probably bigger of the people who were already there apart of Terrmare culture. Sardine people who live in a island next to Italy are really a surprise. In aust dna they are very different than mainland Italians for example in globe13 they have 71% med, 16.1% north euro, 8.7% southwest Asian, and 4,1% west Asian. Main land Italian vary from north to south but basically they range from 40-43% med, 25-35% north Euro, 14-24% west Asian, 9-18% southwest Asian. Sardine also have surprisingly high I2a1a M26 at about 36% and G2a at 15%. They are the closest match to aust dna samples of Neolithic farmers in Europe Gok4 5,000ybp south swedan and otzie 5,300ybp alps Italy. Mainland Italians got a extra amount of mid eastern in the Greco Roman age it is pretty significant Greeks and southeast Europeans southwest Asian vs west Asian percentage is the same as Italians and it is most popular in southern Italy and Greece they get it from the same source probably around Syria. It is true the genetic history of Italians is complicated but even Sicilans and North Italians are very related they are mixed in a similar way. So the idea that Italians in different regions are totally diff is wrong. The Genetic;s of any ethnic group in Europe is pretty complicated mainly because of migrations in Neolithic and then after that,. The most simple I would guess is Finnish. Mid eastern ethnic groups and regions genetic history is so freaking complicated it gets annoying trying to figure it out. But native Americans is extremely simple.

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## Nobody1

@ FH_

Veeramah et al 2011_ 
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html



You are 100% correct, Politics and Political boundaries have little meaning; thats why the Spaniards and the Portuguese cluster with each other and are closer (the closest) to each other (despite being 2 diff. nations) than the N Italians are to the S Italians (despite being 1 nation);
This could be a reason:

_Coop & Ralph et al 2013_ 
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555
_Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.

_Whether _Veeramah 2011_, _DiGaetano 2012_ or _Nelis 2009_ all show the same picture of clear genetic diversity within the Italian people (North/Central/South) towards each-other; 
Reason being that they never greatly inter-mixed with each-other; and why should they have they dont even speak the same languages (mother-tongues) within Romanic family;

Or just look at the _Red Sea_ admix. map and the results:
Sicily 5.3%/S Italy Sicily 6.1%/C Italy 3.5%/Tuscany 2.3%/N Italy 1.6%/N Italy 0.8%/Sardinia 0.2%

_DODECAD_ and also _HGDP Stanford Uni._
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadC1kRjhxcHNfSGhPYlUxbEI0VVZPR 0E#gid=0

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## Tabaccus Maximus

I would think the 'Red Sea Admixture', if there is such at thing, would also correspond to the distribution of 
Haplogroup T, which is concentrated in the Horn of Africa where the Red Sea Admixture also reaches its peak.

As Maciamo has hypothesized before, the early agricultrualists of Europe may have included G, E and T folks from the Middle East. Maybe the so called 'R-S-A' could be more appropriately called the 'Levant Agriculturalist Admixture' (?)

Regardless of how agriculturalists entered Europe, the apparent cline is probably not so much diffusion Northward as it is a blotting effect of Northwestern Europeans expanding Southward. Northern Italy would be one example.

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## Fire Haired

> I would think the 'Red Sea Admixture', if there is such at thing, would also correspond to the distribution of 
> Haplogroup T, which is concentrated in the Horn of Africa where the Red Sea Admixture also reaches its peak.
> 
> As Maciamo has hypothesized before, the early agricultrualists of Europe may have included G, E and T folks from the Middle East. Maybe the so called 'R-S-A' could be more appropriately called the 'Levant Agriculturalist Admixture' (?)
> 
> Regardless of how agriculturalists entered Europe, the apparent cline is probably not so much diffusion Northward as it is a blotting effect of Northwestern Europeans expanding Southward. Northern Italy would be one example.


It doesn't just peak in northern tip of Africa it peaks in all of North Africa and Arabia. Also more specifically Y DNa G2a, E1b1b M78(mainly V13), and possibly some J1,J2, and T spread to Europe with farming mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. The reason why it is popular in Ieria mainly western Iberia is probably the same reason African admixture is 2,5-5% in eastern Iberia and why E1b1b M81 is 10-20% and 5-10% in eastern Iberia. Probably has nothing to do with the spread of farming. The reason why red sea is popular in Greece in Italy is the same reason why I say west Asian and southwest Asian in globe13 are so popular in Italy GRECO ROMAN AGE!!!! it seems no one listens and assime for some reason it is Neolithic. Even though in globe13 there are trends of west Asian vs southwest Asian percentages in Europe and Italy and southeast Europe are in the same trend it peaks in southern Italy and Greece. I mean come on why doesn't anyone suspect Greco Roman age why does Italy and Greece keep popping up maybe because those were the only areas in Europe with civilizations like Rome strongly connected near eastern civilizations and before the middle ages really the only civilizations in Europe.

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## Angela

> _Veeramah et al 2011 -_
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html
> 
> 
> 
> How is its possible that Portuguese and Spaniards are closer to each other (2 diff. nation) N Italians to South Italians?
> Heres an answer;
> 
> _Coop & Ralph et al 2013_ 
> ...


That's all very true...and, in fact, all the components are on a north/south cline in Italy, or perhaps more precisely a northwest/southeast cline. 

Still, there is a slight break in the general European cline at the Alps found as long ago as Lao et al. (There is another major one at the border of Finland.) The Alps have been more of a barrier to gene flow than people have realized. So much of a barrier that within the pages of Ralph and Coop you will also find statements to the effect that the last significant IBD sharing with non-Italian populations was around 400 B.C. 

The fact that there is great diversity in Italy, greater as you say than exists between many countries in Europe, and that the differences were mostly established almost 2500 years ago doesn't change the fact that Italians form a cluster, albeit a large one, of their own. Italians don't overlap, or perhaps it's more correct to say that they minimally overlap, with non-Italians. That can be seen in any PCA plot...despite all the anthrofora speak, southern Italians don't cluster with Greeks, and northern Italians don't cluster with the Swiss or the French, much less the Spaniards. They all cluster within the larger Italian group.

This can be seen even at 23andme with the Ancestry Comp. I'm aware of the overfitting problem with the reference samples, but at the same time, when 23andme checked all those samples on a PCA plot, there was a definite Italian cluster. I have looked at the results of a lot of Italians there, even the ones who are later arrivals and conscientiously did not fill out the ancestry questionnaire, and I've never seen a score much less than 70% Italian. Most of the northern European groups don't get anywhere near that specificity.

I want to emphasize that it remains true that in the past the regional differences were pronounced; the same Lao et al study found a break in the Italian cline just south of Rome. In my own individual case for example, I have very few RF matches...the vast majority and all of the ones above the default reliable level are not only Italian, they're all either northwest Italian or Tuscan.

Italian genetics are a complicated business.

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## Angela

> It doesn't just peak in northern tip of Africa it peaks in all of North Africa and Arabia. Also more specifically Y DNa G2a, E1b1b M78(mainly V13), and possibly some J1,J2, and T spread to Europe with farming mainly 9,000-6,000ybp. The reason why it is popular in Ieria mainly western Iberia is probably the same reason African admixture is 2,5-5% in eastern Iberia and why E1b1b M81 is 10-20% and 5-10% in eastern Iberia. Probably has nothing to do with the spread of farming. The reason why red sea is popular in Greece in Italy is the same reason why I say west Asian and southwest Asian in globe13 are so popular in Italy GRECO ROMAN AGE!!!! it seems no one listens and assime for some reason it is Neolithic. Even though in globe13 there are trends of west Asian vs southwest Asian percentages in Europe and Italy and southeast Europe are in the same trend it peaks in southern Italy and Greece. I mean come on why doesn't anyone suspect Greco Roman age why does Italy and Greece keep popping up maybe because those were the only areas in Europe with civilizations like Rome strongly connected near eastern civilizations and before the middle ages really the only civilizations in Europe.


As I mentioned before, you really should read Ralph and Coop. We are beyond the point where we should be drawing conclusions based on the often contradictory and always obscure comments of the ancient authors, or the shaky conclusions drawn by "modern" historians before the advent of genetic testing. 

Their results may someday be proven to be erroneous, but until that occurs, the best analysis of gene flow into Italy is the Ralph and Coop IBD analysis which I have mentioned numerous times. The last significant gene flow from non-Italian sources into Italy is before about 400 B.C. So, was there input into Italy from Greece before that time? Yes, there was, obviously, mainly in the form of Greek settlements of the coastlines of Sicily and southern Italy, although, how much of that was male mediated, and whether there was actual replacement even in the Greek settlements can't yet be determined, nor how much actual difference there would have been in the two populations in the first place. There would also have been Bronze Age movements from the area of the Aegean even earlier. Those are the two time periods during which the West Asian component, in my opinion, underwent it's major expansion in Italy. 

If you want to know what the Neolithic inhabitants of ltaly were like, we have Oetzi, and for the northwestern regions, Gok 4 as well. In Oetzi's case, in some analyses, he has a trace of West Asian, but that's all it is. However, he, and Gok 4, in addition to the extremely dominant Mediterranean component, had quite a bit of Southwest Asian, more than some northern Italians have today. As I posted before, the Red Sea component is similar to the Southwest Asian component. So, it has most probably been in Italy since the Neolithic. Was it perhaps enriched in southern Italy by the Greek migrations, and slightly decreased in the north by the migrations from central Europe? Probably. An entrance into Italy during the Neolithic, and subsequent gene flow in other periods *are not* mutually exclusive for this component.

What seems not to have happened is any substantial input during the period of the empire...no matter what the movies and popular wisdom might say. Either there weren't as many slaves imported into the peninsula as has been conjectured (after all, they were shipped all over the empire, not just to Italy), or mines, and galleys, and latifundia and brothels are antithetical to longevity and they just didn't get a chance to breed...or both. Those few who were manumitted in time to marry, the vast majority of whom would have been Celts, Germanics, Balkan people, people from Asia Minor and some from North Africa, would just have blended into the large population, which would have been made possible in part because their genetic signatures were not that different from people already present in the peninsula.

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## Sile

> I would think the 'Red Sea Admixture', if there is such at thing, would also correspond to the distribution of 
> Haplogroup T, which is concentrated in the Horn of Africa where the Red Sea Admixture also reaches its peak.
> 
> As Maciamo has hypothesized before, the early agricultrualists of Europe may have included G, E and T folks from the Middle East. Maybe the so called 'R-S-A' could be more appropriately called the 'Levant Agriculturalist Admixture' (?)
> 
> Regardless of how agriculturalists entered Europe, the apparent cline is probably not so much diffusion Northward as it is a blotting effect of Northwestern Europeans expanding Southward. Northern Italy would be one example.


sorry , you need to update your theory on T , its either Babylonian or levant and the red-sea , ethiopia, somalia and arabia theories are over 10000 years to young.
*
The Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula appears to have been the main route of entry, as the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp).* 

If you want to live with the error of T as a red-sea admixture to any degree, then so be it. I get never more than 5% for SW-Asian ( which is th earea in question), but when I did my personnel one with Doug and others , I get zero for red-sea admixture.
I do get 6 points of 150 points in my X- chromosome as south-asian...........but as you know X is not my paternal T side

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## apulomilan

> I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.


You should be only proud of the italian amazing variety of genes....

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## MOESAN

I did not already studied deeply this new question for me but as Tabaccus Maximus I thought in Y-DNA T because it don't suit so well the total y-E1b distribution - 
for me this grouping "red sea" is not too homogenous (mixture 'east-african'-'southwest asian'

lakait hoh empennoù da labourad stard!

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## Toscano

> You should be only proud of the italian amazing variety of genes....


To good its made by a Nordicist who hates southeuropeans and there is not much truth in the maps.
The italians are people are more homogen than for example Germany.

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## Maciamo

I have added a new shade for 0.5% to 1% so as to clearly see who (almost) completely lacks the Red Sea admixture. It is the case of Northwest Europeans, but also the Basques (0%) and the Sardinians (0.2%). That's very interesting considering that the latter two are population isolates who share a high level of I2a1a (M26).

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## silkyslovanbojkovsky

> @ FH_
> 
> Veeramah et al 2011_ 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201165a.html
> 
> 
> 
> You are 100% correct, Politics and Political boundaries have little meaning; thats why the Spaniards and the Portuguese cluster with each other and are closer (the closest) to each other (despite being 2 diff. nations) than the N Italians are to the S Italians (despite being 1 nation);
> This could be a reason:
> ...


How the heck is Slovakia all the way down below Italy away from its neighbors??

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## adamo

Lol true....only a rare few tribes as the Boii migrated to northern Italy towards central Emilia-Romagna from the Germany/Czech region but overall there should be very little cluster between Italians and Slovaks; right off the bat 50% of men from both cultures are R1, the Italians being Celtic B and the Slovaks having Slavic A; in fact there is no excuse at all for this dramatic scenic iris misinterpretation lol. Slovaks defdinetly cluster with Russians Ukrainians Belorussians poles Czechs Slovenes more than they ever could with Italians.

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## silkyslovanbojkovsky

> Lol true....only a rare few tribes as the Boii migrated to northern Italy towards central Emilia-Romagna from the Germany/Czech region but overall there should be very little cluster between Italians and Slovaks; right off the bat 50% of men from both cultures are R1, the Italians being Celtic B and the Slovaks having Slavic A; in fact there is no excuse at all for this dramatic scenic iris misinterpretation lol. Slovaks defdinetly cluster with Russians Ukrainians Belorussians poles Czechs Slovenes more than they ever could with Italians.


yea that's what I would think, the only thing I could think of that possibly would connect Slovakia to Italy could maybe be some kind of Vallachian connection, though supposedly the original vlachs were not related to Italians but who knows. Though I do know quite a few Slovaks who look exactly like Italians. My father looks like he could be al pacinos cousin lol :)

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## Alexandros

Great map! Thanks! Before I saw this map, I had identified the Red Sea component with the Arab expansion, but it does not seem to be the case..

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## Twilight

> I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.



Just because you are Italian with haplogroup E ancestry doesn't make you African American, heck you might have distant ancestors who were in the cutting edge of farming thanks to the Neolithic. :)

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## silkyslovanbojkovsky

> I hope this is not true. I makes me very sad to be italian.


I don't know why this would make you said? Is it because you think it makes Italians less European? because according to Maciamos maps Haplogroup E and the Red Sea component are virtually everywhere in Europe except for the North west. If Italians aren't European I don't know who is then

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## tlangford18

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

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## IberoAtlantid

> For Spain, some observations : 
> 
> Aragon is 0.7% and you have it mostly on the 1-2.5% range. 
> Andalusia is 1.8% and you have it mostly on the 2.5-5.0% range


Thanks for the info.

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## dominique_nuit

Pertaining to Otzi's autosomal DNA and to the concerns of this thread /////

I found these results posted on an old thread on Apricity, from 2013, and wonder if this information is correct. Perhaps more sophisticated calculators would yield different numbers today?

Gedrosia 0
Siberian 0
Northwest_African 5.7
South_Asian 1.5 
Atlantic_Med 57.7
Caucasus 22.3
North_European 0 
Southeast_Asian 
East_African 2.4
East_Asian 0.7
Southwest_Asian 7.6
West_African 0

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?94485-%D6tzi-the-Iceman-s-Autosomal-Dna

In particular, the South Asian, East Asian & Southeast Asian findings seem doubtful.

However, the East African finding is perhaps more plausible in light of the fact that many of today's Mediterranean populations appear to have about 2 to 5% East African or Red Sea admixture. Perhaps this reflects very ancient structuring, perhaps even pre-dating the Neolithic? Could it be that East Africans migrated north and mixed with WHG during the Mesolithic era?

In essence, I am asking the same question that Maciamo posed in 2013 at the very beginning of this thread . . . .

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## Kenshiro

> I don't know why this would make you said? Is it because you think it makes Italians less European? because according to Maciamos maps Haplogroup E and the Red Sea component are virtually everywhere in Europe except for the North west. If Italians aren't European I don't know who is then


I have none (0%) and i am South Italian (Apulia) it's really a shame, because from what i understand it could be linked to the ancient Egyptians, and I would have liked a bit of Egyptian DNA

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## Kenshiro

> How so;
> Did you really think Italy (founded 1861) was a genetic unity? 
> Italians [North/Central/South] are genetically diverse to each other in fact not even related; 
> this map about the _Red Sea admix._ once again illustrates it;
> Ever thought about chopping your Italy tattoo into three parts?


it can be true up to a certain point, I plot in the middle, on closer inspection I am connected to both places, and I am 100% southern Italian (north of Puglia) on closer inspection Italy in the most historical sense of the term is the central, central south and central northern Italy, because it follows a perfect Greek-Italic cline, I would say that the cline goes from Emilia Romagna to the north of Puglia/north of Campania, in fact they are the areas where there is more direct descent from the ancient Italics, northern Italy is too more Celtic and southern Italy is too more Greek

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## torzio

> it can be true up to a certain point, I plot in the middle, on closer inspection I am connected to both places, and I am 100% southern Italian (north of Puglia) on closer inspection Italy in the most historical sense of the term is the central, central south and central northern Italy, because it follows a perfect Greek-Italic cline, I would say that the cline goes from Emilia Romagna to the north of Puglia/north of Campania, in fact they are the areas where there is more direct descent from the ancient Italics, northern Italy is too more Celtic and southern Italy is too more Greek



sounds like you are referring to the well known linguistic divide of Italy................where the linguistic syntax is split

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spe...%93Rimini_Line

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## Angela

> it can be true up to a certain point, I plot in the middle, on closer inspection I am connected to both places, and I am 100% southern Italian (north of Puglia) on closer inspection Italy in the most historical sense of the term is the central, central south and central northern Italy, because it follows a perfect Greek-Italic cline, I would say that the cline goes from Emilia Romagna to the north of Puglia/north of Campania, in fact they are the areas where there is more direct descent from the ancient Italics, northern Italy is too more Celtic and southern Italy is too more Greek


Emilia-Romagna, Liguria, Toscana, imo, are the "heartland", and not because my ancestry is from there, but because indeed in the Veneto and Lombardia and even in parts of Piemonte there's a bit of Langobard, although it's still not very much, and the south is very Greek. I think once you get to Campania, however, the heavy Greek influence sets in, as can be seen in the analyses which Jovialis has done. Lazio virtually doesn't exist any more as a real "Central Italian" entity, so I don't count it, and the Abruzzi is already half southern.

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## Kenshiro

> Emilia-Romagna, Liguria, Toscana, imo, are the "heartland", and not because my ancestry is from there, but because indeed in the Veneto and Lombardia and even in parts of Piemonte there's a bit of Langobard, although it's still not very much, and the south is very Greek. I think once you get to Campania, however, the heavy Greek influence sets in, as can be seen in the analyses which Jovialis has done. Lazio virtually doesn't exist any more as a real "Central Italian" entity, so I don't count it, and the Abruzzi is already half southern.


[/QUOTE]
Screenshot_2022-03-04-10-55-26-261_com.miui.gallery.jpg
This is my plot on G25, and i'm from the Gargano, a plot closer to Tuscany than to Apulia and closer to Umbria than Lazio, in my opinion, central Italy proper (excluding Abruzzo and Molise which are central-southern) is quite homogeneous

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## Palermo Trapani

Screenshot_2022-03-04-10-55-26-261_com.miui.gallery.jpg
This is my plot on G25, and i'm from the Gargano, a plot closer to Tuscany than to Apulia and closer to Umbria than Lazio, in my opinion, central Italy proper (excluding Abruzzo and Molise which are central-southern) is quite homogeneous[/QUOTE]

Hi Kenshiro: If possible, can you post your Dodecad 12B plots using all available samples from all political regions in Italy. Just curios to see the Dodecad 12B as I don't have G25 coordinates (others here I think also do not have G25 coordinates).

Cheers, PT

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## Kenshiro

> Screenshot_2022-03-04-10-55-26-261_com.miui.gallery.jpg
> This is my plot on G25, and i'm from the Gargano, a plot closer to Tuscany than to Apulia and closer to Umbria than Lazio, in my opinion, central Italy proper (excluding Abruzzo and Molise which are central-southern) is quite homogeneous


Hi Kenshiro: If possible, can you post your Dodecad 12B plots using all available samples from all political regions in Italy. Just curios to see the Dodecad 12B as I don't have G25 coordinates (others here I think also do not have G25 coordinates).

Cheers, PT[/QUOTE]
Yes absolutely, Screenshot_2022-03-22-21-14-18-775_com.android.chrome.jpg

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## Palermo Trapani

Kenshiro: Thanks, your results look good, My experience here (and I think others will agree, Angela, Jovialis, Salento) is that Dodecad 12B models Italian populations better than most other models. With Dodecade K12, you plot closer to Apulia which is where you are from.

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## brick

> Screenshot_2022-03-04-10-55-26-261_com.miui.gallery.jpg
> This is my plot on G25, and i'm from the Gargano, a plot closer to Tuscany than to Apulia and closer to Umbria than Lazio, in my opinion, central Italy proper (excluding Abruzzo and Molise which are central-southern) is quite homogeneous




Very unlikely. From what you posted your closest population is the Greeks from the Peloponnese.

Dodecad K12b results make much more sense in your case, as mentioned by Palermo Trapani.

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## Papayaseeds

I dont know, i find it hard to believe that finns and balts have more "Red Sea" then northwestern europeans, dagestanis , georgians and sardinians?

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## Kenshiro

> Very unlikely. From what you posted your closest population is the Greeks from the Peloponnese.
> 
> Dodecad K12b results make much more sense in your case, as mentioned by Palermo Trapani.


Usually all calculators give me 60/70% Italic/Hellenic, the main difference is that I almost completely lack or have a very low southwest Asian component and a little more North European and Gedrosia, let's say, that in principle i'm are decomposable as 30/35% Minoan/Mycenaean-30/35% Iron age Latin/Protovillanovan/BronzeageIllyrians, the rest is divisible into Baltoslavian and Caucasus, however cool, I like it, it seems almost perfectly in line with the ancient Greco-Roman world

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