# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics >  Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

## noUseForAname

Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....

As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13. 

We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

*Region/Haplogroup*
*I1*
*I2*/I2a*
*I2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*
*G*
*J2*
*J*/J1*
*E-V13*

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5

*Kosovo Albanians*
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5

*Albanians (Macedonia)*
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1

*Greece (Peloponnese)*








47

*Greece (South)*
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

*Greece (North)*
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4

*Greece (Crete)*

13

8.8
17

39

8.8

*Greece (Thrace)*

19

22
12

19

19

*Greece (ethnic Greeks)*

19

16
11.7
9
17

19

*Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)*
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1

*Bulgaria*
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5

*Bosniaks*
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10

*Bosnian Croats*
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9

*Bosnian Serbs*
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5

*Croatia*
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10

*Serbia*
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18

----------


## Maleth

100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time. 

As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.

----------


## bicicleur

E-V13 

1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

*Notes[edit]**^α* Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]

9000 year ago in Anatolia : 
http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
(these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture

----------


## albanopolis

> Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....
> 
> As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13. 
> 
> We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.
> 
> I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...
> 
> 
> ...


Pellasgian preancient Greeks?
Seriously?
If they were pre ancient greeks, why are they pellasgians?

----------


## Maleth

> E-V13 
> 
> 1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture
> 
> *Notes[edit]*
> 
> *^α* Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]
> 
> 9000 year ago in Anatolia : 
> ...


Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)

I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.

----------


## noUseForAname

> 100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time. 
> 
> As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.


Thats what ive ben reading too, So as far as we know E-V13 is born in South East (parts of Albanian Speaking regions and Greek speaking regions) and it didnt came from anywhere else...
Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a *7000 year old skeleton* in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being *similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence*. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, *E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic*, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, *much earlier than the Bronze age*.

Therefore, my intention is to know to which population E-V13 was the highest, Ancient Greeks, Pelasgians, or some other tribes...

----------


## bicicleur

> Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)
> 
> I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.


you are right, I just pointed out a possibility

here are some more elements :

the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia

the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
hence the move of E-V13 toward SW Asia

as for the Balkans :

yes, most of E-V13 arrived in the Balkans 7200 years ago and spread from there (few stayed in SW Asia)
note that first neolithic people arrived in the Balkan only some 8600 years ago, and they were probably G2a
also note mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece, 
in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago
this makes mesolithic presence of E-V13 in the Balkans very unlikely

----------


## Yetos

> you are right, I just pointed out a possibility
> 
> here are some more elements :
> 
> the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
> you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia
> 
> the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
> this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
> ...



Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by, 

*Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%*

*pelasgians were J2 and G2 people*, or else the ones we call eteoCretans or the Arzawa/assuwa if not IE (anatolian branch)


The Konya E-V13 date fits exactly with the Kadmeians, not with Pelasgians,

In NORTH EPIRUS a city was Build by Kadmeians named Phoinike, the E-V13 came from levant, the myth of Phoenician Alphabet,

if Pelasgians were E-V13 Raetia and Tuscany and sud Tyrol should have high E-V13, 
*It is not found in Etruscan tombs,* 

Pelasgians and Etruscans are the same,


I have wrote many times about that, but Albanian propagandistic agenda in order to prove that E-V13 is before and ancient of all other Hgroups insist in the Iberian E-V13,
so as to make Kadmeians as Pelasgians and Etruscans,

so I am to post the result of Dienekes about Balkanic E-V13 to show that is not pelasgian, 
Besides all ancient Historians connect Pelasgians with Thyrrenians (Etruscans sardinians etc)
and the archaiological found prove that with Lemnean stele.

no if someone wants to connect Etruscans Sardinians and Generally Villanovans with E-v13 it is his problem,

----------


## noUseForAname

> E-V13 
> 
> 1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture
> 
> *Notes[edit]*
> 
> *^α* Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]
> 
> 9000 year ago in Anatolia : 
> ...



Very interesting theories, however I support the Maleth claim that the export came from Balkans to the costal north Egypt and not the other way around...

E-V13 coming from Levant is not supported by DNA links...it is at at the very lowest % on that region, i think just about 2%...and in north Africa even lower 0.9%

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

----------


## Angela

I fail to see how any of you could *know* when E-V13 was first present in southeastern Europe. 

The only E-V13 ancient sample we have is indeed 7,200 years old, of course. It was found in a Neolithic context in western Europe. I think the evidence is persuasive that it was part of the Neolithic migrations from the eastern Mediterranean, if not specifically the Balkans. 

So, presumably, it would have been present at least some time before 7,200 years ago in the area of dispersal of the Neolithic. How much before is just guesswork. Until we have an ancient E-V13 sample from the Balkans, or perhaps from the Aegean, we won't have the answer.

See the following thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...plogroup+E-V13

_From that thread:
"What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance. 

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in  Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge. 

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...E1b1bRoute.png

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not. 

The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...autBrucato2011

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-con...urope-map1.gif
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wo...e15_image1.jpg

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress..../ancient-y.png

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean. 

If someone wishes to quibble with the Bronze Age date (based on pedigree type rates) for the expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans, that's fine. The alternative is to use the Zivitovsky rate which is 2 1/2 times slower, which would mean it had its massive expansion way back in the Neolithic.

There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, linking E-V13 to the Caucasus (that is G and J2 country) or the Turks, or some mythical group of Egyptians. Nor is there any indication so far that it came to Europe by way of Gibraltar. That is highly probable, of course, for at least some of E-M81, which has a very different history and distribution. 

We try to deal with science and recorded history here, not myths or things used as calumnies of one sort or another. 

It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers._ "

As I discussed with Maleth, I am not married to the opinion that the precise E-V13 mutation took place in the Levant. Maybe it took place somewhere in the Aegean or the Balkans. I'm not sure yet. 

This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.

----------


## LeBrok

> _From that thread:
> "What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.
> 
> _


The excellent time for expansion of new clads are the cultural/economic collapses, and we had quite few of them through Neolithic to present. I think we are going to see a dominance of G and E haplogroups in Neolithic. Then shift to J2 and J1 during copper age. After Bronze Age collapse we see dominance of R1b and R1a. They arrived in Bronze Age but true expansion of the them happened after the collapse. This might have been good time for E-V13 expansion, or it expanded to current coverage after Dark Ages when Balkans were depopulated, together with I2a-Din. Expansion happened from small secluded communities who survived fairly intact.

----------


## bicicleur

> This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.


definition of who/what pelasgians were is not clear
i'd say they were the indogenous people of Greece before the arrival of the Myceneans some 3700 years ago
so they were a mixed people from many different haplogroups, E-V13 is (probably) only one of them

----------


## Sile

Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

The answer is that it arrived late into Europe

----------


## bicicleur

> _
> What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.
> _


as I mentioned above :  
mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece, 
in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago

----------


## Maleth

> they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.


This is something we very often ignore. Many ancient groups of peoples have been living in a particular geographical area for a long period of time before expanding further so the opportunity to mix was big. While one haplogroup could have a higher percentage then other they would have been pretty mixed already, very much like today. When one considers that homosapien migration from Africa started around 70,000 years ago, the entries in Europe (comparitively) are pretty recent ;)

----------


## Maleth

> Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?
> 
> Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?
> 
> The answer is that it arrived late into Europe


Which haplogroup is dispersed evenly in Europe? Not sure what your assumption has got to do with E-V13 age? Let science work on it, it can give better answers

----------


## noUseForAname

*...........*

----------


## noUseForAname

> Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
> date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by, 
> 
> *Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%*


*
Pelasgians seem to be all around north to the south, Peloponnese area too, Check the map of HOMER
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Pelasgians.jpg

So according ti Homer this looks like its actually the opposite.... Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13












Greece (Peloponnese)








47

Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4












Greece (ethnic Greeks)

19

16
11.7
9
17

19













http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

FYI there is no such thing as 6% of E-V13 in Greece, current modern greeks have 19% of E-V13*

----------


## Taranis

I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked. 

It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.

----------


## albanopolis

> I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked. 
> 
> It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.


There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2

----------


## Aaron1981

> Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?
> 
> Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?
> 
> The answer is that it arrived late into Europe


I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.

----------


## noUseForAname

This is what i found so far...according to some sources Pelazgians (also called minoans) were the inhabitants living in those regions....

The name *Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified** as "barb**aric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians.**
**Homer[edit]*The Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer: those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the _Iliad_ are among the allies of Troy. In the section known as the_Catalogue of Trojans_, they are mentioned between mentions of the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-eastern Europe (i.e., on the Hellespontine border ofThrace).[11] Homer calls their town or district "Larisa"[12] and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus, thus giving all of them names that were Greek or so thoroughly Hellenized that any foreign element has been effaced.
In the _Odyssey_, Odysseus, affecting to be Cretan himself, instances Pelasgians among the tribes in the ninety cities of Crete, "language mixing with language side by side".[13]
The _Iliad_ also refers to "Pelasgic Argos",[14] which is most likely to be the plain of Thessaly,[15] and to "Pelasgic Zeus", living in and ruling over Dodona,[16] which must be the oracular one in Epirus. However, neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Myrmidons, Hellenes, and Achaeans specifically inhabit Thessaly and the Selloi are around Dodona. They all fought on the Greek side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


*The name Pelasgians, was used by ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the White Hellenes in Greece. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language that at the time, Greeks identified as not Greek. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. Archaeological excavations during the 20th century have unearthed artifacts in areas traditionally inhabited by the Pelasgians, like Thessaly and Attica and Lemnos. Archaeologists excavating at Sesklo and Dimini have described Pelasgian material culture as Neolithic.*
*Since next to nothing is known about the Pelasgians, The question of who built Mycenae (The first great city on mainland Greece), looms large. According to the White Greeks (the Hellenes) myth of Danaus, the building of Mycenae was a collaborative effort between Crete and Egypt. But since Mycenae was build at about 2,000 B.C, almost one thousand years before the Hellenes arrived in Greece, there can be no confidence that the hellenic myth has any factual basis.
*http://realhistoryww.com/world_histo..._Greece_1a.htm

I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...

1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.

6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home

Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....

----------


## joeyc

> I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.


E-v13 is quite rare anywhere in Italy.

----------


## Taranis

> There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2


Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.




> I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...


Might be?  :Rolleyes: 




> 1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.


Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the _Aegean_.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.




> 6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
> http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
> 
> Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....


Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics...  :Vomitting: 

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

----------


## albanopolis

> Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> Might be? 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the _Aegean_.
> ...


Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.
Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
I don't know if if this makes sense to you?

----------


## Yetos

*Expansion of E-V13 explained* 

by Dienekes

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html


an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,

It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


*Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans*

----------


## Taranis

> Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.
> 
> Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
> I don't know if if this makes sense to you?


I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:

1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the _Aegean_).

2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).

3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.

The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you _ad-hoc_ define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (_without actually caring_ where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.

The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including the Albanians), no doubt, have a partial ancestry in the Neolithic population of that area, but please, lets keep the term "Pelasgian" out of that discussion.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians


How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?




> And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the _Aegean_.


 The beginning of the formation of communities with populations of ethnic traits is an evolutionary process, long and complicated, which belongs to the Neolithic (New Stone) and Eneolithic era (copper). As time span these eras capture millennium period between the seventh and fourth millennium B.C.
In these two era major and essential, changes occurred, without knowledge of which can not here understand that originated the process of formation of peoples and languages ​​of the Balkan Peninsula. 
And to understand these qualitative changes the only sources are of archaeological evidence, coming from the territory of Eastern Europe, including the Aegean and Anatolia (Turkey's western coasts). Therefore it is necessary to become acquainted with these discoveries.
Many are the data from the territory of Albania and the Albanian territories. With intensive research of the past 50 years, made to the cultures of the time of Neolithic and copper is achieved major representative of recognized cultures, their characteristics and peculiarities of the development level from one period to another. Early Neolithic culture in Albania is represented by the Vlushta (Korce), the Podgories (Korce), the Kolshi (Kukes); Middle Neolithic culture of Dunavec (Korce) of Cakran (Fier) and Blazin (Mat), while the late Neolithic culture represented by Maliq I Barç I (Korce) and Kamnikut (Cologne). (Prendi, F. 1976, 21-99; Korkuti, M. 1995, 11-261). These are representative of the Neolithic cultures of Albania, which show a dense housing (for the time) and geographic reach that covers almost the entire territory. Starting from the earliest cultures Vlushta (seventh millennium B.C.) until to Maliq I, has a residential consistently demonstrates a sedentary life, which was conditioned from birth and development of agriculture and livestock, two basic branches economy and interdependent on each other since their birth. In some settlements (Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq, Cakran, etc.) took priority to agriculture, which made possible the establishment of reserves for living based products, and consequently, significant changes occurred in the social life. For this reason, these new aspects of Neolithic and Eneolithic some scholars have termed as "agricultural revolution". 

Continuity of life and culture finds its expression primarily in the technology of preparation of earthen vessels, as well as the addition of large working tools of flint, stone and bones and all about perfecting the technique in their paper, proven these rich collections of work tools and the multitude of vessels of clay, found in Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq etc..
Important new feature of this era was the begining rate relationships, not only between neighboring communities, but also between remote communities, as evidenced by import objects from backgrounds genuine culture of Thessaly (Greece), found these in Dunavec the Cakran (Korkuti, M. Andrea, Zh. 1974). These swaps, which were the initial however, show that our Neolithic cultures have not been closed, isolated, but have given the deal with each other. Conversely, in one of the capitals of the Neolithic cultures of Thessaly, on the acropolis of Diminit found objects imported from Dunavec culture. (Korkuti M. 1995.127)
The Neolithic cultures in Albania are referred to the construction of wooden frame housing, fence walls, smeared with mud. But the most difficult buildings were wooden huts, raised on the water, such as the remarkable waterlogged residence (on stakes) of Dunavec, which nowadays is the earliest in the Balkans (the middle of the fifth millennium Pesona. According to analysis laboratory carbon (C14) this settlement dates in 4800 B.C.

Indoeuropeanisation Western Balkan territory became part of the overall process of the whole Balkan indoeuropeanized, so this problem will be referred to, firstly, to the conclusions reached. They can be summarized in these views more representative. 

- Most of Albanian and foreign archaeologists the indoeuropeanisation of South East Europe see as a long process that took place as a result of several waves of invasions nomadic neighbors, come from the steppes of Asia in the third millennium B.C. 

A variant of this view, constitutes another thesis according to which non-Indo-European population, of the Mediterranean, Neolithic and Eneolithic was indoeuropeanisate during the large influx of pastoral peoples, who came from the steppes in the early Bronze Age.
However, when we think about the implications of this process, *we should note that the movement of the peoples of the steppe has been strongest in the eastern territories of the Balkan Peninsula and less in the regions of West Balcan, which constituted the terminal ends of the extent of this influx, the role* *of symbiosis of the  immigrant's with the local population may not be the same as in the eastern Balkan territories.*
The first record for the label of this population will find older authors of ancient Greece, Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus and to over 100 other authors, Greek and Latin, who speak for the Pelasgians as a population not Greek. (In order to complete these data are found in the work of Fr.Lochner-Hüttenboch, Die Pelasger). Homer mentions the Pelasgians as the inhabitants of Thessaly, Crete; younger writers as Hesiod, Herodotus, Hecataeus, Thucydides, give us other releases, placing Pelasgians once in in Peloponnesus , once in Asia Minor and once in Italy, and their language, Pelasgian, call barbaric languages ​​ie . not Greek. 

From the viewpoints of scholars of the twentieth century can mention those of some linguists, as M.Budimir, V.Georgiev, Fr.Lochner -Hüttenbach, G, Bonfante etc.., Who expressed the opinion that there is a connection between the language of this population pregreek Mediterranean ancient languages ​​of the Balkans later, as thracian and illyrian. Other researchers, like B.Gavela, the pellazgic substrate of Balkan-Aegean region pose as an Indo-European indigenous determine from the geographical and cultural point of view (Gavela, B. 1971.24). On the basis of these studies can be said that the Pelasgians are a population that has resided in Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean and Asia Minor before the formation of the Greek ethnos and that their language is Indo-European and is not related to the Greek.

*So, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in Western Balcan.*

----------


## albanopolis

> I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:
> 
> 1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the _Aegean_).
> 
> 2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).
> 
> 3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.
> 
> The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you _ad-hoc_ define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (_without actually caring_ where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.
> ...


Greek authors made clear that Pellasgians spoke different language. Sometimes they switched to Greek. Greek historians were boasting with pride that Hellens never switched their language. Homer is just one writer who mentioned them. There are about ten others who also mentioned them. It appears that Pellazgs were not a uniform ethnic group. According to the writings they too spoke different languages in different regions. Its not clear how related their languages were.
Since no special ability were mentioned about them we suppose that their culture was not in the Hellenic level.

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## King Bardhyl

I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.

Someone as example *Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan* _Les Etrusques commencent a parler_ (_The Etruscans Begin to Speak_). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians 
http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html 


The position of linguists, historians and albanolog (Albanian and foreign) is that albanian are the descendants of the illyrian .
So this theory of * "linguist-ethnologist, clinical nutritionist and author Marios Dimopoulos about the Greek-Pelasgian (Greek-Albanian) civilization, the ancient Greek philosophical view of the world and the creation of a new Hellenic (Greek-Albanian) superstate in Balkan.*" is a foolish.
According to Aristir Kola :" there is no greek that don`t have an albanian grandparents." But he refers to modern greeks.
There is an immutable constant in movement of the population in the Balkans, permanently from the mountains of southern Albania (Epirus), large or small groups of higlanders who descended below on areas of Greece.This phenomenon recorded since ancient times ( Epirotes i.e Illyrians to Thessaly, etc) until nowadays.
These populations are known in the Middle Ages (when there are more accurate records and when this movement peaked) with the name of Arvanites, i.e Albanians.
This movement waned during the twentieth century, reaching a minimum during communism, to be exploded after the fall of communism. Today in Greece there are about one million Albanian. There is not any Albanian who was not once in Greece.

----------


## Angela

> Yetos;442118]*Expansion of E-V13 explained* 
> 
> by Dienekes
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html



You are confusing when a "Y" lineage underwent a major expansion, and when it might have first appeared in an area.




> It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


You are apparently using the term "Pelasgian" to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans, which would be a case of inaccurate attribution of the term. If you want to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants (with whatever WHG they had incorporated), then you should do so.

E-V13 is indeed not too young for the Neolithic in Europe. We've already found it in that context. We haven't yet found it in Neolithic Greece or the Balkans, but it would hardly be surprising since the Cardial migration path went from there to the western Mediterranean.




> G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
> I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


Just who is doing this considering? We have yet to find a single ancient J2 sample (i.e.)Neolithic or before anywhere in Europe, so such pronouncements are misplaced. 

Who on earth is saying that the R1a homeland is in the Balkans?

Based on the ancient samples so far found in Europe, only the "I" and "C" y dna groups are older than the Neolithic.

Please post relevant _scientific_ papers for your assertions, and when you do post them, please do not change their meaning. 





> *Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans*


I fail to see the significance of this statement whatsoever.

----------


## Taranis

> How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?


In my opinion, its too much of a leap to label Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians".

Lets put the archeology of the Neolithic for a moment to the side and look at the linguistic perspective: if the "Pelasgian" hypothesis (that "there is a common substrate of an ancient language on the Balkans") was true, then you'd find a lexicon of common Albanian and Greek words that are shifted according to the respective sound laws. In another thread over in linguistics (this really doesn't belong here in genetics, in my opinion), Kentel and I recently had a discussion which included common items found in the Celtic and Germanic languages (not elsewhere) which may be 'shared inheritances'. Such "shared inheritances" do to my knowledge not exist for Greek and Albanian (they are in fact, very different Indo-European branches). 

We do have non-Indo-European languages attested from the Aegean (e.g. Minoan and Lemnian, and I said there may have been others), and you might label these languages as "Pelasgian" (which I don't perceive as a particularly smart move, because they have nothing in common), but there is no evidence that would tie these to the area of Albania, or to the Albanian language.

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## Maleth

> E-v13 is quite rare anywhere in Italy.


are you sure its so rare?

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28660-Distribution-of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29

and according to the Eupidia Map it reaches 10 to 20% in Genoa, Abruzzo, Veneto, Apulia and Central Sicily

----------


## joeyc

> are you sure its so rare?
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29


The average frequency for the E-V13 haplogroup is between 5 and 10%, with few hot spots. Germany and most of Central Eastern Europe follows a similar pattern.

----------


## Angela

> are you sure its so rare?
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tini-et-al-%29


You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's _rare_. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "_quite rare_" in Italy. 

If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.

----------


## Maleth

> You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)
> 
> My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's _rare_. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "_quite rare_" in Italy. 
> 
> If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.


Indeed. Also we seem to forget that we have Mtdna's and Grandfathers and Grand Mothers and Great grand fathers and Great grand mothers and so on who probably belong to different haplogroups and have injected their dna to the wonderful homosapiens we are today :).

----------


## Yetos

> how'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the neolithic and eneolithic period in albania?
> 
> *so, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in western balcan.*


*
you are confusing Kadmeians and PHOENICIA of Illyros 
with aegean, minor asian Pelasgians* 


There is no connection among them
except the Pyrgi tablets

----------


## Yetos

> I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
> http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
> He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
> The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.
> 
> Someone as example *Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan* _Les Etrusques commencent a parler_ (_The Etruscans Begin to Speak_). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians 
> http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html 
> 
> 
> ...



and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan 
and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,






*WHEN YOU DECIDE WITH WHOM YOU ARE CONNECTED?*


besides Arbanites were according census of 1876 about 54 000 and estimated by global organisations as almost the same today,
A kolla wrote bullshit, he was a lawer that wanted to play it as linguist,
for example he wrote that Albanians are pure Greeks and Greeks are not,
and to confirm that he wrote words to compare like door

english door
Alb Dera
Anc Greek Θυρα
modern Greek Πορτα (used for house doors, for big doors word Πυλη, and for bigger doors central and outer is Θυρα)
etc etc

THE ONLY HE PROVED BY HIS METHOD IS THAT ALBANIAN IS NOT A SOUTH BALKANIC LANGUAGE BUT A NORTH EAST BALKAN LANGUAGE

*cause Dera fits to IE aspirations of Door, a Germano-Slavic,*

not with Homeric Θυρα neither with Romano-celtic Port,

*so A Kolla in his mind believed that Albanians are ancient Greeks,*
*but he proved that Albanian IF IS NOT A CREOLE LANGUAGE, is from EAST AND NORTH and possibly away from balkans*.

he made a significant work, but with wrong believes, 
in fact his work proves the oposite, that is why all linguists laugh with him.

*besides soon we might have Georgiev's entire work*,
wich after Duridanov is a remarkable work in Balkanic languages.

----------


## bicicleur

> *Expansion of E-V13 explained* 
> 
> by Dienekes
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html
> 
> 
> an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,
> 
> ...


the article is 6 years old
even today there are no reliable expansion dates for Y-DNA
I hope some day soon they'll be able to compare the full genome of a very old and well-dated skeleton with a dataset of present-day full genomes, and use the age of the skeleton for calibration
and even then, who says all SNP's in the Y-DNA have the same mutation rate?

recently neolithic 8000 year old I1 has been found
I don't think it matches nordtvedts 4500 year old expansion time, unless the neolithic 8000 year old I1 got extinct or it waited another 3500 years for expansion

sorry to be off-topic here

----------


## joeyc

> You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)
> 
> My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's _rare_. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "_quite rare_" in Italy. 
> 
> If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.


Of course it's relative to other countries. Nearly 50% of North Albanians carry the E-V13 haplogroup for example.

----------


## Sile

I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them

thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,

----------


## Maleth

Subject closed. New evidence  :Cool V:  :Cool V:  :Cool V: 

DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum

 :Grin:

----------


## Sile

> Subject closed. New evidence 
> 
> DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum


looks greek to me,

----------


## Garrick

> and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
> and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan 
> and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians* (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

(Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

*Georgiev* argues:

1) *Illyrian toponims* from antiquty *are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws*;

2) *Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian)* and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

3) *Marine terms in Albanian* is borrowed from different languages suggesting that *Albanians were not coastal people*;

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that *Albanians and Greeks have no link*;

5) There is no reference in *any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age*;

6) *Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words*, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that *Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania*.

These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.

----------


## Angela

> Subject closed. New evidence 
> 
> DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum.



MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!

This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity. 

For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps _more_ scientific than most of the posts on this thread.

----------


## Maleth

> looks greek to me,


Thats what they say, unless its morton toe they used to consider as a disorder .....but not anymore I think :)

----------


## Maleth

> MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!
> 
> This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity. 
> 
> For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps _more_ scientific than most of the posts on this thread.


HELLO SISTA.....I Promise Im not going to compare any other body parts with Zeus  :Shocked:  Thats a great piece of art especially for that era. :Rolleyes:

----------


## King Bardhyl

> *Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians* (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.
> 
> According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.
> 
> Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.
> 
> (Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).
> 
> *Georgiev* argues:
> ...


I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.

----------


## Yetos

> I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them
> 
> thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,




that is part of the knowledge we have,

we also know that Athens was inhabited by Pelasgians,
thoukidides recogn the thyrrenians as pre-Greek athenean language,
we know the pre-Greek connection of Athens with Minoans,
and we know that did not participate in troyan war,
and main of all we know that Attica Orchomenos etc is a pelasgian language.
Herodotos describe Ionians mostly as the Εθνος πελασγικον,
we know that Phokaeis and pelasgians lived beside each other,
we know that island of Lemnos village of Καμινια Caminia was inhabited by Etruscans, who tend to move west,
and pelasgian mostly occupy the North part of Aeagean, as you already said, the Pelasgian Argos, that is why some connect it with Troyans and Arzawa/Assuwa if the last were not IE speakers, while south was eteo-cretans, but both had connection with minor Asia and Attica,
that is why tend to speak about eteo-cretans as relatives of pelasgians,

----------


## Garrick

> I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.


You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.

----------


## King Bardhyl

> You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.
> 
> It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.


There is no unnecessary confusion, you have to be sure, evrything is clear.


P.S.
BTW, did you speak with your teacher of history?

----------


## Yetos

> There is no unnecessary confusion, you have to be sure, evrything is clear.
> 
> 
> P.S.
> BTW, did you speak with your teacher of history?




question,


are you a teacher of history?

----------


## Sile

> that is part of the knowledge we have,
> 
> we also know that Athens was inhabited by Pelasgians,
> thoukidides recogn the thyrrenians as pre-Greek athenean language,
> we know the pre-Greek connection of Athens with Minoans,
> and we know that did not participate in troyan war,
> and main of all we know that Attica Orchomenos etc is a pelasgian language.
> Herodotos describe Ionians mostly as the Εθνος πελασγικον,
> we know that Phokaeis and pelasgians lived beside each other,
> ...


it would seem to me that the pelasgians where later replaced by the 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

----------


## noUseForAname

> This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.


As we know for certain that the Pelasgians were the inhabitants living in those regions before the Ancient Greece period, then my point was that their major DNA could be E-V13, because as of today the Greek speaking and Albanian speaking regions have the highest percentage of E-V13.

It is also argued that greek and Albanian languages are 5,000 years old...here are the recent research papers...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm

I will also post a Pelasgian transcripts with a translated Albanian language.

----------


## noUseForAname

Originally Posted by *Maleth* 
_Subject closed. New evidence 

My foot Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum



Haha Maleth, a very nice idea actually, i recently saw those things online...

You have done your test right?.... i see it said E-V13...

I also saw other ancient greeks statue foots and they looked the same....

Would that mean that that specific foot is E-V13?

Anyone who has done the test please take a pic...I havent done the test yet though..._

----------


## Maleth

> Originally Posted by *Maleth* 
> _Subject closed. New evidence 
> 
> My foot Zeus foot at Athens archeological museum
> 
> 
> 
> Haha Maleth, a very nice idea actually, i recently saw those things online...
> 
> ...


I only learned about this by a thread someone started here some time ago, which I thought was funny  :Smile: .....But its true they call it Greek foot because nearly all statues in Greece have this kind of foot. Even statue of Liberty in New york has it :). I don't believe it would be something just reserved to E-V13's that could be inherited to anyone from one side or other of the family.....maybe would be more prevalent if there is some e-v13 in the mix? Don't know. 

I read (if true, not sure) that Spartans used to choose this kind of foot for athletics as it had some kind of benefits. Maybe that has something to do why so many Greek statues have it.

----------


## Angela

> I only learned about this by a thread someone started here some time ago, which I thought was funny .....But its true they call it Greek foot because nearly all statues in Greece have this kind of foot. Even statue of Liberty in New york has it :). I don't believe it would be something just reserved to E-V13's that could be inherited to anyone from one side or other of the family.....maybe would be more prevalent if there is some e-v13 in the mix? Don't know. 
> 
> I read (if true, not sure) that Spartans used to choose this kind of foot for athletics as it had some kind of benefits. Maybe that has something to do why so many Greek statues have it.


For a joke I tried to send you a PM with a picture of my feet so you could tell me if I'm pure or admixed. :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  Unfortunately, unlike the regular board, the PM system doesn't seem to let you upload from your computer...at least _I_ couldn't figure out how to do it, which is, of course, a very different thing.  :Smile:

----------


## Angela

Sorry, double post.

----------


## Maleth

> For a joke I tried to send you a PM with a picture of my feet so you could tell me if I'm pure or admixed. Unfortunately, unlike the regular board, the PM system doesn't seem to let you upload from your computer...at least _I_ couldn't figure out how to do it, which is, of course, a very different thing.


Okie dokie, Angela. Feet can help  :Good Job:  BUT I would also please need nose pic (sides please and no cheating), hair texture and measurement between ears and top of head to chin. Then we can start a full analysis. I am also pleased to inform you that it will be possible to find out if you come from a clan of warrior women or just enjoyed spending the day cooking  :Satisfied:   :Smile:

----------


## motzart

I think it is a lost cause to try to associate a Y DNA haplogroup to Pelasgians. By the Mycenaean era in Greece every single major European Y DNA lineage had been there for a thousand years or more.

----------


## Angela

> Okie dokie, Angela. Feet can help  BUT I would also please need nose pic (sides please and no cheating), hair texture and measurement between ears and top of head to chin. Then we can start a full analysis. I am also pleased to inform you that it will be possible to find out if you come from a clan of warrior women or just enjoyed spending the day cooking



Unfortunately, as I said, I can't seem to PM pictures from my computer.  As for the rest, I have been feeling rather Amazon-like lately, in a Renaissance sort of way, like Caterina Sforza, perhaps, besieged by Cesare Borgia...(who met a most deserved if untimely end) and sundry others throughout her life. I would never be so power mad, or unfeeling, however, or vulgar for that matter...so, maybe Isabella D'Este? I would love to be even the palest imitation of her. 

Then, of course, I don't have legions of servants and retainers. We 're expected to do it all nowadays, career, home, children, husband...
Just call me.... W O M A N...just no lard from the can of drippings...horrors! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWFhlVvYOno :Laughing:  :Laughing:

----------


## Maleth

> Then, of course, I don't have legions of servants and retainers. We 're expected to do it all nowadays, career, home, children, husband...
> Just call me.... W O M A N...just no lard from the can of drippings...horrors! 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWFhlVvYOno


Okie Dokie, research cancelled, until later. And I have to say thanks to the Palasgians and Zeus foot I have discovered Peggy Lee, more kick back music with a good glass of red wine. Thank you for posting  :Good Job:  :Laughing:

----------


## noUseForAname

Originally Posted by *Taranis* 
_Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.

Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.
Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... 

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again._


noUseForAname 

FYI, my intention is to find dna links, and this is nothing related to nationalities. 

Hopefully we will soon have ancient greeks dna, and i am suspecting that it might be E-V13 because in those areas it is with its highest percentage in the world...

Of course there is a common substrate of greeks and albanians, (still referring to dna not history), just look at the dna percentage...E-V13 is almost the same, and this is a *FACT,* so call them pelazgian or some other tribes, E-V13 looks like its *NATIVE* at least for some thousands of years...

As for civilizations, you are right, but i was still referring and trying to make sense with dna links and not what we know through history...

what about the bosnian pyramid that is argued to be 20,000 years old....predating Giza and so one?...

bosnia-pyramid.jpg

----------


## noUseForAname

motzart



> I think it is a lost cause to try to associate a Y DNA haplogroup to Pelasgians. By the Mycenaean era in Greece every single major European Y DNA lineage had been there for a thousand years or more.


You are correct, however we are trying to maybe determine which particular y dna was with highest percentage (of course thers mixture everywhere)...as with R1b at celts....so to E-V13 to Ancient greeks or to native pre greek inhabitants....

----------


## noUseForAname

What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....

----------


## LeBrok

> What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
> 20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....


It is a scam.

----------


## bicicleur

> What can we say we really know about history and civilizations?...well it seems not a lot...
> 20,000 years pyramid and its oldest in the world found in Europe....


extraterrestials

----------


## noUseForAname

> extraterrestials


So apparently the bosnian piramid of the so called sun is a "cruel hoax"...lol...

----------


## noUseForAname

> Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> Might be? 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the _Aegean_.
> ...


FYI, my intention is to find dna links, and this is nothing related to nationalities. 

Hopefully we will soon have ancient greeks dna, and i am suspecting that it might be E-V13 because in those areas it is with its highest percentage in the world...

Of course there is a common substrate of greeks and albanians, (still referring to dna not history), just look at the dna percentage...E-V13 is almost the same, and this is a *FACT,* *so call them pelazgian or some other tribes, E-V13 looks like its NATIVE at least for some thousands of years...**

As for civilizations, you are right, but i was still referring and trying to make sense with dna links and not what we know through history...*

----------


## Gorgonzola

So what was the most possible haplogroup for the pelasgians?

----------


## noUseForAname

LemnianStele3.jpg
Untitled-TrueColor-03.jpg
Untitled-TrueColor-04.jpg
Untitled-TrueColor-05.jpg
Untitled-TrueColor-06.jpg 

This is what i have found so far...

This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the *pelasgo-illyrian language*, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the *Albanian language*, this is the translation

This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:

_MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!
_
_Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!
_
_Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!


_http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.o...n_english.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALemnian_language

----------


## noUseForAname

> the E-V13 came from levant, the myth of Phoenician Alphabet,


How can E-V13 come from Levant to Balkans when it is proved that those areas have only 2%...this doesnt make any sense...

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the *Near East (2.0%)*, and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

So this looks like it proves that current *Greek and Albanian speaking regions* are the *ROOTS* of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...

----------


## Ike

> So this looks like it proves that current *Greek and Albanian speaking regions* are the *ROOTS* of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...


No it doesn't prove anything. It just suggests.

----------


## Taranis

> This is what i have found so far...
> 
> This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
> But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the pelasgo-illyrian language, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the *Albanian language*, this is the translation
> 
> This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:
> _MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
> anguish, ill luck all over,
> women covered with black veils.
> ...


Where do you keep digging up this nonsense?
No offense to you, but this is yet more nonsense from an somebody who has no understanding of linguistics and who just wishes to magically "prove" the 'ancientness' of Albanian (ignorant of the fact that the internal history of Albanian tells us very clearly that the language, 2000 years ago, would have been very different), without caring what's actually written down in the Lemnos inscription, namely an entirely different language.

The Lemnos inscription isn't written in some wild-eyed, cranky "Pelasgo-Illyrian", but in a language closely related with Etruscan.



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ALemnian_language


Why do you link to something in the commentaries of wikipedia, while the Wikipedia article itself is a lot better written (ironically enough) and shows us the actual situation:




> A relationship between Lemnian, Etruscan, and Raetian as a Tyrsenian language family is widely accepted due to demonstrations of close connections in vocabulary and grammar. For example,
> 
> both Etruscan and Lemnian share two unique dative cases, type-I *-si and type-II *-ale, shown both on the Lemnos Stele (Hulaie-ši "for Hulaie", Φukiasi-ale "for the Phocaean") and in inscriptions written in Etruscan (aule-si - "To Aule" - on the Cippus Perusinus as well as the inscription mi mulu Laris-ale Velχaina-si, meaning "I was blessed for Laris Velchaina").
> They also share the genitive in *-s and a simple past tense in *-a-i (Etruscan -⟨e⟩ as in ame "was" (< *amai); Lemnian -⟨ai⟩ as in šivai, meaning "lived").


In contrast, the Illyrians were speakers of Indo-European languages.

Would you be happier if I claim that Albanian is descended from Martian? It would make just as much sense as this "Pelasgo-Illyrian" fantasy.  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Sile

> How can E-V13 come from Levant to Balkans when it is proved that those areas have only 2%...this doesnt make any sense...
> 
> Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the *Near East (2.0%)*, and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
> —Cruciani et al. (2007)
> 
> So this looks like it proves that current *Greek and Albanian speaking regions* are the *ROOTS* of E-V13 as it percentages go above 40%...


I read E-V13 came via* cyrene* in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks :Satisfied:

----------


## Maleth

> I read E-V13 came via* cyrene* in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks


Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?  :Rolleyes:  

Cyrene *owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera* in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/

----------


## Ike

> Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?


It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.

----------


## Maleth

> It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.


Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?

----------


## Ike

> Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?


I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.

----------


## noUseForAname

> I read E-V13 came via* cyrene* in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks


Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced. 


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

----------


## Sile

> Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
> E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...
> 
> My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced. 
> 
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml


We keep coming back to this scenario
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008...explained.html
The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians

another post
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

----------


## Sile

> Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
> E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...
> 
> My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced. 
> 
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml


most people where replaced in north Africa by the arabian migration from Arabia to morocco, .......first Negev people, then Egyptians, then greeks, then liby-phonecians, then numidians and finally berbers

----------


## noUseForAname

> *Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians* (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.
> 
> Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.
> *Georgiev* argues:
> 
> 4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that *Albanians and Greeks have no link*;
> 
> 6) *Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words*, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that *Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania*.


1. Of course there are links between greeks and albanians...have you checked the *DNA facts* that i have listed?....

2. Although current modern greek and albanian language is quite different, it is argued that both languages are very different with the current modern ones...
It is argued recently that *Greek and Albanian* languages are *5,000 years old*, it might be possible that they were the same or different tribes living at those regions and also speaking different languages or dialects...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ml?src=mv&_r=0

3. Can you send me some same words as with an romanian language?...
Because albanian language is 5,000 years old romanian language later might have adopted some words from albanian...but again albanian language is very different with the old one....

As far as i have read there is no link at all with romanians and albanians...at least not genetically, linguistically, nor historically...

Also, if you look at the E-V13 (and my table) Albanians have actually the *highest percentage in the world,* and it is clear that E-V13 was spread from the south east balkans and later probably spread up to north west and east....

----------


## Maleth

> I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.


Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on. It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 mutation occurred in the Balkans proper. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.

----------


## Maleth

> We keep coming back to this scenario
> 
> another post
> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69


Thank you for posting this interesting info Sile:- 

"On the other hand, E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans"

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

----------


## Ike

> Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on.


Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess. 




> It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 *mutation occurred in the Balkans prope*r. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.


My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?

It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.

----------


## noUseForAname

> We keep coming back to this scenario
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008...explained.html
> The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians
> 
> another post
> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69



1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...

2. Thanks for the second post it said "*E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans*" [13,14]

3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily

4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the *highest E-V13 in the world* (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is *47.5%*

FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there *no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks*, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or *ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?*...

(Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes *Pelasgus** as the first man,* born of the earth.[19]
"Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as *"**barbaric**"* people from the *Pindus Mountains* (see the pic)

pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png220px-Pelasgians.jpg

----------


## Sile

> 1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...


 and ?

Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.





> 3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
> According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily




Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania 




> 4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the *highest E-V13 in the world* (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is *47.5%*





> 




there was no albanians in the bronze-age, the area was doric, the oldest people I know there where dorians. 




> FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there *no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks*, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
> If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or *ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?*...


I man with E-v13 who became king or chief and had a policy of a concubine system can, in 4 generations multipy 10 fold 

We see this happen as late as the 19th century with the Zulus of africa



> 





> (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes *Pelasgus** as the first man,* born of the earth.[19]
> "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as *"**barbaric**"* people from the *Pindus Mountains* (see the pic)
> 
> pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png220px-Pelasgians.jpg


Pindu mountians was home to th molossians...one of the 14 epirote tribes

----------


## Sile

> It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, .


the only one that is logical

----------


## Yetos

there is no possibility that Dorians inhabited Albania or came from Albania,

Georgiev's map is clear 




Dorians had an epithet, Tριχακες meaning from Trikke Τρικαιοι a area in Thessaly near by Epirus

----------


## Ike

> the only one that is logical


Indeed is, if we want to fit the theory with the current findings, but what are the probabilities for it to happen? To have a very small M78 population, and at the same time to have V13 mutation happening, and at the same time to have a line of events that would eradicate all M78 except that one V13 which would then spread itself in Balkans? I agree that it is possible, but I'm placing my money on 100x more probable hypothesis, even though current findings suggest different. I don't think that current findings are indicative enough to be conclusive.

----------


## noUseForAname

> and ?
> 
> Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.
> 
> [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]
> 
> 
> Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania 
> 
> ...



Can you send the link please...

1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....r*emember the 7,000 years* *skeleton** was found and it was E-V13...*


2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)

*Region/Haplogroup*
*I1*
*I2*/I2a*
*I2b*
*R1a*
*R1b*
*G*
*J2*
*J*/J1*
*E-V13*

*Albania*
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5

*Kosovo Albanians*
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5

*Albanians (Macedonia)*
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1

*Greece (Peloponnese)*








47

*Greece (South)*
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5

*Greece (North)*
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4















3: So are you arguing that Dorians (ancient greek tribe) are descendants of Albanians?

There were *no Albanians at the early bronze age but there were also no ancient greeks*...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at *Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%*....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like *north Pindus mountain in current Albania* up to areas where it is known there are high mountains in* south Kosovo and West Macedonia were E-V13 is above 40%*...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...

----------


## kamani

> 4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at *Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%*....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like *north Pindus mountain in current Albania* up to areas where it is known there are very high mountains above 2,000 metres high in* south Kosovo and West Macedoni were E-V13 is above 40%*...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...


Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.

----------


## Yetos

> Can you send the link please...
> 
> 1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....remember the 7,000 years skeleton was found and it was E-V13...
> 
> 
> 2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
> We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
> It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)
> 
> ...


i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

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## MOESAN

I think too the 'pelasgian' label doesn't tell us a lot... as very often it is a exogamic name

concerning Y-E-V13 I have not too much to add to what was said - someones here put solid arguments and we have now to wait for a chanceous ancient DNA in the right places and times - 
here under a discussion I found in the forum "For what they were we are" - maybe I have red to quickly but I didn't see Y-DNA SNPs in it - but could it explain an old BUT neolithic presence of y-E1b and subclades in Europe??? just to feed the "war" (keep cool, it's my aperitive hour)



There are severalinteresting studies in my "to do" list and I will becommenting them in the following days (I am quite busy these weeksand therefore I concentrate my efforts on weekends).


In this entry we have arather interesting analysis of ancient mtDNA from the Pre-PotteryNeolithic B of Syria (NE and South) and its legacy on modernpopulations of West Asia and SE Europe, as well as on ancientEuropean Neolithic ones. 


*Eva Fernández et al.,*_Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern FarmersSupports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of MainlandEurope through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands_*. PLoSGenetics 2014.* *Open access**→ LINK*[doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401]


I understand that thesequences are not really new but that they were first discussed inFernández 2005 (thesisin Spanish) and 2008.What is new is the comparison with ancient and modern populations insearch of their possible legacy.


 

 Early PPNB (from CONTEXT C14 database)


In spite of the relevanceof this analysis, it must be cautioned thaPPNBancient mtDNA and its legacyt the Tell Ramad and Tell Halulasites may not be fully representative of the actual genetic diversityof PPNB as a whole, a cultural area that spanned all the Levant, fromthe Kurdish mountains to the Sinai and Cyprus.


If, as the authors argueand I have already suggested in relation to the NE African affinitiesof European Neolithic ancestry, the arrival of Neolithic to Thessalyhappened via a coastal route, inland PPNB sites may well not be asinformative as Palestinian or Cypriot ones.


But this is what we havefor now, so let's see what these ancient Syrian farmers tell us,while we await further Neolithic sequences from potentially morerelevant sites.


 

 Table 1. Mitochondrial DNA typing of 15 Near Eastern PPNB skeletons.




40% of the sequencesbelong to haplogroup K, a U8-derived lineage unknown in Europe beforethe Neolithic. Most of the other lineages (40%) belong to R0 but halfof them belong to R0(xHV), extremely rare in Europe (common in Arabiainstead) and the H sequences cannot be identified either withanything common nowadays. The remaining 20% of lineages (U*, N* andL3*) are not too helpful either.


So when the authorscompare them with modern and ancient populations most of the affinitycorresponds to *a single basal haplotype of K (16224C,16311C)*as described in supplementary table 5.


 

 *Figure 2. Contour map displaying the percentage of individuals of the database carrying PPNB haplotypes.*
Only populations with clear geographic distribution were included. Gradients indicate the degree of similarity between PPNB and modern populations (dark: high; clear: small).




The SE European and WestAsian populations with the greatest legacy of this haplotype are: theCsángó ofMoldavia (22%), Cypriots (13%), Ashkenazi Jews (11%), Crimean Tatars(10%) and Georgians (9%). Cardium Pottery farmers from Catalonia(23%) and a pooled Central European Danubian Neolithic sample (10%)also score high for this lineage.


Some other PPNB matrilineages also show some lessermodern prevalence:

16223T (L3) →	Qatar, Yemen (not necessarily the same L3(xM,N) lineage, it must be	said)16224C,16311C,16366T	(K) → Druze16256T (H) → Bedouin
The other haplotypes havenot been detected in modern nor European Neolithic populations.


The obvious conclusion isthat only the 16224C+16311C K haplotype was, of all the EuphratesPPNB lineages active in the Neolithic European founder effect. Thishaplotype was present only in 1/15 individuals from the EuphratesPPNB, so rather marginal over there, although a close relative foundtoday among the Druze was more common (3/15).


Another conclusion isthat the *Csángó* probably have a quite direct line ofancestry to the early European farmers, shedding some light on theorigin of this mysterious population at risk of extinction.


The *coastal route toThessaly* proposed here makes all sense to me because, on oneside, early Anatolian Neolithic cultures do not seem to have anyobvious cultural affinity with the first European Neolithic of Sesklo(Painted Pottery) and Otzaki (Cardium Pottery), and, on the otherside, there is clear evidence of some NE African genetic legacymediated by Palestine: Y-DNA E1b-V13 naturally but also the "BasalEurasian" speculation of Lazaridisthat ended up being revealed as Dinka affinity in fig. S7 of Skoglund& Malström. 


This theory can only bestrongly confirmed if Palestinian and Cypriot ancient DNA issequenced and fits well in it. Similarly ancient Balcanic DNA wouldbe most interesting to have as well for a more direct reference. But,in any case, the theory seems at the very least plausible andsupported by some important evidence. 


 

 My hypothetical reconstruction of a plausible coastal route of Neolithic towards Thessaly (dashed red line)
on a base map of Middle PPNB from the CONTEXT database.




It is also important tonotice that the Syrian PPNB sequences are different from the modernmtDNA pool of West Asia, dominated by lineages like J, T1 and U3.This suggests that, at the very least in this region of the SyrianEuphrates, there have been important demographic changes sinceNeolithic, something confirmed by data from the same are but of laterdates (which anyhow is not yet modern either). 


Fernández et al. discuss this issue in some detail:
Our PPNB population includes a high percentage(80%) of lineages with a Palaeolithic coalescence age (K, R0 and U*)and differs from the current populations from the same area, whichexhibit a high frequency of mitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3(TableS7). The latter have been traditionallylinked with the Neolithic expansion due to their younger coalescenceage, diversity and geographic distribution [11],[12],[49].In addition to the PPNB population, haplogroup T1 is also absent inother Early Neolithic populations analyzed so far [17],[22],[26],[30].Haplogroup U3 has been found only in one LBK individual and it hasbeen suggested that it could have been already part of thepre-Neolithic Central European mitochondrial background[19].

HaplogroupJ is present in moderate frequencies in Central European LBK-AVKpopulations (11.75%) and it has been proposed as part of the CentralEuropean “mitochondrial Neolithic package” [19].However, it has also been described in one late hunter-gathererspecimen of Germany, raising the possibility of a pre-Neolithicorigin [23].Haplogroup J is present in low frequency (4%) in Cardial/EpicardialNeolithic samples of North Eastern Spain [27],[28],[31].Absence of Mesolithic samples from the same region prevents makingany inference about its emergence during the Mesolithic or theNeolithic. However, its absence in the PPNB genetic backgroundreinforces the first hypothesis.

Thesefindings suggest that (1) late Neolithic or post-Neolithicdemographic processes rather than the original Neolithic expansionmight have been responsible for the current distribution ofmitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3 in Europe and the Near Eastand (2) lineages with Late Paleolithic coalescent times might haveplayed an important role in the Neolithic expansive process. Thefirst suggestion alerts against the use of modern Near Easternpopulations as representative of the genetic stock of the firstNeolithic farmers while the second will be explored in depth in thefollowing section.
From the viewpoint ofmaterial Prehistory, it is of course correct, that PPNB wasoverwhelmed by later cultural processes, which may have implied demicexpansions and replacements of some sort, even if many of them seemto originate within West Asia.


First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well. All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region. 


But unless we get moreancient West Asian DNA it will be most difficult to discern clearlyhow all that played out. After all the Syrian Euphrates can beexceptional in many aspects, being right in the middle of all: a truepivot of the Fertile Crescent, subject to pressure from alldirections. 
_
AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro) 
​I'll try to think again about it but..._

----------


## LeBrok

Great job Moesan, good compilation on first farmers.



> First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well.* All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region.*


On scale of few thousand years dominant haplogroups change dramatically. I came to accept the fact, which is very transparent from latest research papers, that effect of fading and exploding of new haplogroups is more important than population movement. Sure population movements will introduce new hgs into natives, but the rest is done by founder effects or most successful hg effect, I suppose. Most notable example is explosion of I2a Dinaric in Balkans, or R1b L21 in England to over 50% of male population in some areas. At the same time popular in Paleolithic hg C is gone, though hg I is still successful. Very populous and successful Neolithic hg G2 seems to be in minority everywhere these days, and few other farmers' haplogroups, except new clades of EV13.
Thinking along these lines perhaps the first of farmers were J1 people, that's why this hg is widespread but fairly rare now?

----------


## LeBrok

> _ AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro)_ 
> 
> 
> _​I'll try to think again about it but..._


G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.

----------


## MOESAN

> G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.


sensible points
I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly *less rapidly* in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -

----------


## MOESAN

That said I put this in this topic where a a big part was given to Y-E-V13 and ancestors, because of the first supposed position of these early farmers (PPN):
central coastal Levant and proximity of Lebanon so Druzes, and proximity of Egypt... as a whole, compare do "northern" G and eastern J, E is more coastal and western -

----------


## noUseForAname

> Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.


I dont think about Spain and France it is very low there....and those are very big countries to compare with, the key is to find the highest percentages in populations which might show or help us in their migrations...For example R1a thought to be born in central Russia or west Asia is very high in current central Russians with over 50%...

As per *Italy...I have found very high E-V13* in some areas *above 28%* (see table) and it might have helped to some degree a pretty large migrations of Albanians to Sicily, Calabria and Puglia (see the Italian documentary at minute 6:00).......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGY1lUP_U-Q
Italians (South)
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
26.0
—
15.0
—
3.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

Italians (Sicily)
IE (Italic)

—
—
8.8
27.3
23.8
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

Italians (East Sicily)
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
29.0
—
5.0
—
5.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

----------


## noUseForAname

> Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess. 
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?
> 
> It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.


You should ask *Maciamo* for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...*to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention*....

Originally Posted by *Cobol19* 
_I think E1b1b was probably hanging out in West Asia for a while until the movement happened to Europe, and among them there was likely J2 men as well.

_*Maciamo*
That was what I thought before too. But that does not explain why E1b1b has a higher frequency than J2 in Western Iberia or the Southern Balkans. J2 is far more common than E1b1b in West Asia (ratio of almost 3:1). *It also fails to explain* why there is so little E-V13 in West Asia and the Levant. *Furthermore, if Neolithic farmers and herders were only G2a*, then how did E1b1b reach Iberia at all from the Middle East ?

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. *It is almost undeniable* that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). *If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.*

----------


## noUseForAname

> the only one that is logical


Yes i think so too, E-M78 (maybe even very small groups) came directly to (South East balkans) *9,000 years ago* and from there mutated and formed E-V13, then from there since that time spread out through Europe slowly....on the other side *E-M78* which is at the very north east Africa is *18.000 years* *ago*. This i guess makes pretty much sense and it is also argued at europedia....

*E-V13 is one of the major markers of the* *Neolithic diffusion** of farming from the Balkans to central, eastern and western Europe. Like all the other subclades of E-M78, E-V13 originated in north-east Africa toward the end of the last Ice Age.* 

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...-DNA.shtml#M78
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

----------


## Angela

> sensible points
> I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
> that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly *less rapidly* in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -


I don't doubt that's true, but whether or not there were slight differences in "phenotype", these early Neolithic farmers were all extremely similar in terms of overall genetics.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Ed: Otzi and Gok4 are very close to them indeed, even though Gok4 is more admixed, and if the Portalon Iberian farmer and the Iberian Cardial farmers were included, I have no doubt they would show up there as well.

----------


## Ike

> You should ask *Maciamo* for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
> Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...*to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention*....*.*


There are no scientific sources.Only one ancient E-V13 we have is in Spain, which is very far away and long ago from Pelasgians. That's why (at the moment) no one can give you anything except mathematical estimate, which may not even be true. 

I'm more inclined to think according to LeBrok's hypothesis, that founder effect is much more important in Hg dynamics than we give it credit.

----------


## noUseForAname

> i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
> some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1


I dont see how religion would have any effect on this....Just during the Otoman empire and when Gjergj Kastrioti skanderbeg died January 17, 1468, it was the same religion in those areas....In addition if you have seen the table above how come then Peleponnese area have 47 % of E-V13 and Kosovo 47.5%?....My opinion is that This has nothing to do with religion...

----------


## Maleth

> i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
> some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1


And what religion is E_V13?  :Grin: . With the same measuring stick the most successful multiplication in Europe to date is R1b. What religion does R1b have? and forget national percentages but go in population numbers were R1b is common. UK = 64 million, Spain = 47 Million, Germany 84 Million compared to Kosovo 1 million, Greece 11 million and Albania 3 million were E-V13 is all the more common. 

Religions do not come labeled with a particular hapolgroup as we all very well know  :Wink:

----------


## kamani

So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).

----------


## Maleth

> So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).


Kamani, at present ancient dna sampling is only possible north to the alps so we are not going to have much data about ancient dna south of the alps until we have more sophisticated tools to make it possible. The current speriodic data was probably available to special circumstances to were they were found and preserved, but its very very minimal compared to studies that are ongoing to the north of the Alps. At least that what I was told by some professor in the field. There will be a time when things will be more clear. (at least I was told)

----------


## Ike

> Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. *It is almost undeniable* that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). *If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.*


You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...

----------


## noUseForAname

> You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...


That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....

FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"

----------


## noUseForAname

> Where do you keep digging up this nonsense?
> No offense to you, but this is yet more nonsense from an somebody who has no understanding of linguistics and who just wishes to magically "prove" the 'ancientness' of Albanian (ignorant of the fact that the internal history of Albanian tells us very clearly that the language, 2000 years ago, would have been very different), without caring what's actually written down in the Lemnos inscription, namely an entirely different language.
> 
> The Lemnos inscription isn't written in some wild-eyed, cranky "Pelasgo-Illyrian", but in a language closely related with Etruscan.
> 
> 
> Why do you link to something in the commentaries of wikipedia, while the Wikipedia article itself is a lot better written (ironically enough) and shows us the actual situation:
> 
> 
> ...


According to recent and older scientific research *Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD*, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
Sources....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm
indoeuro02c.jpg

You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

----------


## Sile

> According to recent and older scientific research *Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD*, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
> Sources....
> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0
> http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm
> indoeuro02c.jpg
> 
> You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....


the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

----------


## Skerdilaidas

> the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
> it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)


Judging by that graph, Albanian and Greek went their separate ways about 5000 years ago, which most likely is correct. But, that tree is not correct on the relationships of Greek and Armenian. There is a new theory/hypothesis regarding Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, and Albanian. All four languages are grouped under the Balkan branch of Indo-European languages, and Armenian-Phrygian-Greek creates/form the Eastern branch, while Albanian is alone on the Western branch (the only Paleo-Balkan survivor). Anyways, check it out for yourself:

----------


## noUseForAname

> the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
> it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)


It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....

It also shows on the map that the Albanian speaking regions were in the area of todays Albania, Kosovo, west Montenegro, south Serbia, the whole of todays Macedonia, south west Bulgaria and even the very south of Italy.

----------


## LeBrok

> It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....


Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.

Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

----------


## Taranis

> According to recent and older scientific research *Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD*, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...


It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.

For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.

Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not _closely_ related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European _*o_ shifted to _*a_ (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).

About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary:

mik (friend - 'amicus')
qen (dog - 'canis')
qytet (town/city - 'civitas')
peshk (fish - 'pisces')
pulë ('chicken' - pullus)
shok (friend - 'socius')

If Albanian borrowed all these words from Latin, and they are subject to subsequent phonetic evolution, by what logic is Albanian "5000 years old" if the language was a very different one 2000 years ago?




> You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....


About E-V13, as you know it has been found in one of the Neolithic sites from Spain, suggesting it was once widespread in Europe in the Neolithic, considerably older than PIE.

----------


## Skerdilaidas

Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity. Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages. To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans? 


E-V13 was found in Spain, and it seems that it probably got there via Balkan: 




> The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes

----------


## Taranis

> Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity.


I won't disagree with you here that Albanian was - likely - descended from one of the Paleo-Balkan languages (the situation is too ambiguous to tell for certain).




> Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages.


Exactly. Greek, however, is a special case in so far as it has one of the longest written histories of any Indo-European languages, thanks to Mycenaean Greek (written in Linear B, from circa 1500 BC) - even though there is that 'dark age' between the Linear B becoming extinct (during the Bronze Age collapse), and the Greeks adopting the alphabet from the Phoenicians (circa 800s BC).




> To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans?


I was mainly pointing this out as a counter-example for noUseForAname's earlier posts, in particular the absurd claim that it would be possible to 'translate' Lemnian (a non-Indo-European, Tyrsenian language, closely related with Etruscan) using cherrypicked _modern_ Albanian:




> Attachment 6832
> Attachment 6833
> Attachment 6834
> Attachment 6835
> Attachment 6836 
> 
> This is what i have found so far...
> 
> This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
> ...


Because by *no* means, Albanian has anything to do with the pre-Greek languages of the Aegean region.

----------


## Ike

> That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....
> 
> FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
> I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"


Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...





> Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. *It is almost undeniable* that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). *If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.*

----------


## noUseForAname

> Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.
> 
> Otherwise it is just an educated guess.


I see here Albanian and Hellenic separate at 1,000 BC which is 3,000 years, the other source shows 5,000 years ago Albanian and Greek separate...
I don't understand what are you referring too....

----------


## noUseForAname

> Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...


Maciamo was arguing that E-V13 didn't came from Levant nor Anatolia. Therefore it *didn't mixed* with J2 or other haplogroups.

FYI, y dna (E-V13) cannot be mixed with say J2, admixed with lets say when E-V13 was there J2 came and admixed, meaning from there both y dna might have mixed with female counterpart as E-V13 and J2 cannot be mixed, they are both from male genes.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> *Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians* (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.
> 
> According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.
> 
> Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.
> 
> (Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).
> 
> *Georgiev* argues:
> ...


Is not proven yet, illyrian was centum. There are indices of both, satem and centum. The majority of the serious scholars agree that Albanian evolved fron illyrian . There are all the indices showing this fact. If you like to dream, this is your problem, go on. Georgeiev, is the only one supporting the Albanian connection with dacian. He failed. There is none ancient source of a migration spreading from Romania to Albania. Of course, except Slavic tribes. Romans knew all the population movements spreading inside empire. Those claims are becoming ridiculous.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.
> 
> It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.


Georgiev theory, failed times ago,. So, stop proclaiming his theory.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks.


Absolutely true.

----------


## noUseForAname

> It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.
> 
> For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.
> 
> Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not _closely_ related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European _*o_ shifted to _*a_ (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).
> 
> About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary:
> 
> mik (friend - 'amicus')
> ...



of course it has some latin or other words (as all the languages have), however by no means it is not "large part" as you mentioned
Check the *Illyrian words* borrowed by modern albanian....

*Cognates with Illyrian[edit]*

_See also: Illyrian languages_

Andena/Andes/Andio/Antis — personal Illyrian names based on a root-word _and-_ or _ant-_, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. _andë_ (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and _ëndë_ (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish"; _Andi_ proper name, _Andizetes_, an Illyrian people inhabiting the Roman province of Panonia.[64]_aran_ "field"; cf. Alb. _arë_; plural _ara_[65]_Ardiaioi/Ardiaei_, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. _ardhja_ "arrival" or "descent", connected to _hardhi_ "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both _stem, tree stalk_ and _tribe, lineage_. However, the insufficiency of this theory is that so far there is no certainty as to the historical or etymological development of either _ardhja/hardhi_ or _Ardiaioi_, as with many other words.[64]_Bilia_ "daughter"; cf. Alb. _bijë_, dial. _bilë_[66]_Bindo/Bindus_, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. _bind_ "to convince" or "to make believe", _përbindësh_ "monster".[67]_bounon_, "hutt, cottage"; cf. Alb _bun_[68]_brisa_, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb _bërsí_ "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *_brutiā_)[69]_Barba-_ "swamp", a toponym from _Metubarbis_; possibly related to Alb. _bërrakë_ "swampy soil"[69]_can-_ "dog"; related to Alb. _qen_[69]_Daesitiates_, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. _dash_ "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic _dasa_ "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).[64]_mal_, "mountain"; cf. Alb _mal_[70]_bardi_, "white"; cf. Alb _bardhë_[71]_drakoina_ "supper"; cf. Alb. _darke_, _dreke_[72]_drenis_, "deer"; cf. Alb _dre, dreni_[68]_delme_ "sheep"; cf. Alb _dele_, Gheg dialect _delme_[73]_dard_, "pear"; cf. Alb _dardhë_[74]_Hyllus_ (the name of an Illyrian king); cf. Alb. _yll_ (_hyll_ in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. _hyj_ "god", _Ylli_ proper name.[72]_sīca_, "dagger"; cf. Alb _thikë_ or _thika_ "knife"[75]_Ulc-_, "wolf" (pln. _Ulcinium_); cf. Alb _ujk_ "wolf", _ulk_ (Northern Dialect)[76]_loúgeon_, "pool"; cf. Alb _lag_, _legen_ "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA *_lauga_), _lëgatë_ "pool" ( < PA *_leugatâ_), _lakshte_ "dew" ( < PA _laugista_)[77]_mag-_ "great"; cf. Alb. _i madh_ "big , great"[69]_mantía_ "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb _mandë_ "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb _mën, man_)[_citation needed_]_rhinos_, "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb _ren_ "cloud" (mod. Alb _re, rê_) ( < PA *_rina_)[78]_Vendum_ "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)[72]
*
Early Greek loans[edit]*

There are some 30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian.[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.[11]

bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic _mélitta_ "bee" (vs. Ionic _mélissa_).[80]drapër; "sickle" < (NW) _drápanon_[81]kumbull; "plum" < _kokkúmelon_[81]lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < _láchanon_ "green; vegetable"[82]lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < _lápathon_[83]lyej; "to smear, oil" < *_liwenj_ < *_elaiwā_ < Gk _elai(w)ṓn_ "oil"[_clarification needed_]mokër; "millstone" < (NW) _māchaná_ "device, instrument"[79]mollë; "apple" < _mēlon_ "fruit"[84]pjepër; "melon" < _pépōn_presh; "leek" < _práson_[82]shpellë; "cave" < _spḗlaion_trumzë; "thyme" < (NW) _thýmbrā, thrýmbrē_[81]
*
Gothic loans[edit]*

Some Gothic loanwords were borrowed through Late Latin, while others came from the Ostrogothic expansion into parts of Praevalitana around Nakšić and the Gulf of Kotor in Montenegro.

fat; "groom, husband" < Goth _brūþfaþs_ "bridegroom"[85]

horr; "scoundrel", horrë; "hussy, whore" < Goth _hors_ "adulterer", *_hora_ "whore"[_citation needed_]

shkulkë; "boundary marker for pastures made of branches" < Late Latin _sculca_ < Goth _skulka_ "guardian"[_citation needed_]shkumë; "foam" < Late Latin < Goth _skūma_[_citation needed_]tirq; "trousers" < Late Latin _tubrucus_ < Goth *_þiobrok_ "knee-britches"; cf. OHG _dioh-bruoh_, Eng thigh, breeches[_citation needed_]

After the Slavs arrived in the Balkans, the Slavic languages became an additional source of loanwords. The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkishwords; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Many Albanian names (such as Enver Hoxha) are of Turkish origin. Some loanwords from Modern Greek also exist especially in the south of Albania. A lot of the borrowed words have been re-substituted from Albanian rooted words or modern Latinized (international) words.


*E-V13 Widespread from south east balkans* to Europe, do you have any info about E-V13? its all around this site, yet you have given me nothing on *DNA similarities of ancient greece locations and albanians*.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. .


Also Italian loanwords.

Source: 

* Paolo Di Giovine, Dal dukát all'investitór: nove secoli di italiano in Albania (http://www.treccani.it/lingua_italia...digiovine.html)

* Brunilda Dashi, Italianismi nella lingua albanese, Edizioni Nuova Cultura, 2013 (https://books.google.it/books?id=xGFvGn8dheYC)





> Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.
> 
> Otherwise it is just an educated guess.



LeBrok, another educated guess.





http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeolo...ine-and-russia


*The sound of Proto-Indo-European*

http://news.sciencemag.org/2015/02/s...-indo-european

----------


## noUseForAname

So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, *Ancient Greek 3,500* - *Modern Albanian 1,000* - *Modern Greek 500 years old*.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is *Epirus* - Roots of Ancient Greek *Thessaly* and *Lydia*.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/

----------


## noUseForAname

> Jez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... 
> 
> - Sumerian is an isolate language.
> - Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
> - Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.


Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)

Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....

You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, *Archaeology doesn't lie here*

----------


## Taranis

> Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)
> 
> Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
> it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....
> 
> You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, *Archaeology doesn't lie here*


There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

----------


## Garrick

> So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, *Ancient Greek 3,500* - *Modern Albanian 1,000* - *Modern Greek 500 years old*.
> This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.
> 
> It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is *Epirus* - Roots of Ancient Greek *Thessaly* and *Lydia*.


But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.

According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.

This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.

----------


## hrvat22

> *Taranis*





> sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.


Croats are not always on the Balkans at least these present. I2a haplogroup is European and has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans

Croats originally were not Indo-Europeans, but they have become Slavs and Indo-Europeans in White Croatia or southern Poland, where they began to speak Slavic language and genetic partly became Indo European nation mixing with Slavic tribes R1a haplotype..

All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....

Maybe there were people, probably are with I2a haplogroups earlier on the Balkans but today Croats genetically come from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia and have nothing to do with Vinca etc...

Serbs are partly Albanian origin and they have second haplotype in population E1b haplogroup which is probably native in Balkans and they are partly always on the Balkans as well large part of Albanians so they could have something with vinca culture if is E1b haplotype on Balkans 7000 years old, if not then they have nothing to do with Vinca...It is the logic

----------


## Ike

@Hrvat22

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject :)

----------


## hrvat22

> @Hrvat22
> 
> The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject :)


Croat has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356, earlier mutation is I2a1b2a1a S17250 that has a source in southern Poland and south-western Ukraine.... 

Only people and state mentioned there is a White Croatia..

Which origin is Bosnian with that haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 ....he arrived in the same hour and minute from the same place as his neighboring Croat... They came from White Croatia and one is Bosnian, one is Montenegrin, one is Serbian one is Croatian... They have the same common ancestor in White Croatia




> The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing


The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...Obvious is that Croats came from White Croatia as Montenegrins..

----------


## Ike

> The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...


Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?

croats.jpg

----------


## hrvat22

> Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?
> 
> croats.jpg



For Bulgaria and Romania has yet to be see .... Most of the Bosnians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenians less, all those who have mutation Y3548 are White Croatian origin..

People with mutation Y3548 now exist in Bulgaria, Belarus, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Russia ...which means that migration White Croats were in different directions and how much people have White Croatian origin in these countries remains to be seen... In Bosnians, Montenegrins and Serbs White Croatian or Croatian origin has half or little less of these population..in other populations remains to see percentage of haplotypes with this mutation...then you can draw a new map...

----------


## Garrick

> All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....


It is useless.

On one side we do not know a lot and science is trying to establish the facts through numerous studies.

On the other side haplogroups have nothing to do with nations.

That you're talking about is not a science, not even pseudoscience.

It will take plenty of water Sava and Danube while science does not consider all the dices, every new research can contribute to that direction, but it can refute previous opinions.

----------


## LeBrok

> \
> 
> The way I interpreted haplogroups is *logic*.


 Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?

----------


## hrvat22

I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed. 

Serbs coming from area of Lusatian Serbs to Greek and from a little village in Greek they settling half Balkans ... It's genetic unconfirmed, therefore Porphyrogenitus speaks about Serbs based on settlement of Croats and position of 10th century when in fact in these area existed Serbia..

1526 Turks take inventory of troops in that area (Bosnia, southwestern Serbia and Montenegro) and there is not a single soldier which is Serb...
There exist Anadoli or Turk, Bosnian and Croat soldier.. In present-day southern Serbia is heart of Serbia and there was soldiers who declare themselves as Croats as well as in Montenegro and eastern Bosnia, where Serbs living now ...and it was all Serbian one hundred years earlier in the history...

I remind you that it was after Battle of Nicopolis where are Turks together with Serbs as allies fought against Christian europe..so there is no reason why anyone year 1526 should not declared as Serbian soldier...


I note that parts of these nations are Croatian origin not all nations... among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc. Croats are partly Vlach or Albanian origin...

----------


## Yetos

> I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...
> 
> It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
> In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...
> 
> 
> Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
> Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...
> 
> ...


The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss,
the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic

----------


## hrvat22

> The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
> now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss,
> the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
> now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania
> 
> that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
> but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic






> that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic


Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..

It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...





> f we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic



In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..

----------


## Garrick

> I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...
> 
> It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
> In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith (later small number is converted to Protestantism). And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?

It doesn't matter. *Today's nations are social constructions*, not genetic. Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA), no matter whether I2a, E-V13 etc. Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians who converted in Islam today are Bosniacs, the same is true for those who have converted to Catholicism, they are Croats today, and for those who have converted to Orthodox Christianity, they are Serbs. But haplogroups of these male people are same.

Nations and religions have nothing to do with haplogroups.

If someone wants find differences between male Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs, etc. he or she can analyze R1a.

Clades of R1a have differences:

 

According it is:




> Much better thanks.
> 
> I can see few groups, proportionally regarding R1a clads to each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Slavs that group together.
> 
> - Serbs, Bosniaks, Macedonians and some Russian and Belarusian places.
> ...


Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a (plus in Serbia was found R1a Z95 that is different than typical clades of population of Slavic countires).

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick








> Plus Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia not only are similar but have the lowest percentage of R1a





> Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs have same genetics (Y-DNA),


How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..

Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..




> And probably larger part of Serbs in the time of Ottoman Empire converted to Islam and Roman Catholic faith


Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...




> And Serbs were Roman Catholic in substantial numbers before Ottoman Empire came to the Balkans. And what?


religion, language, customs, can not to change genes .. still on the Balkans comes only Croats who later divided and become this or that ... that is genetically irrefutably...

It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...

----------


## Yetos

> Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..
> 
> It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..


I think, and from what I can read,
Croatia has primary R1a in the west of Dinaric Alps, and I2 in the east,
I2 is also very high and relative/common with Bosnia Srbia Bulgaria and Skopje and considerable in Romania.
Bosnia Serbia Croatia for linguists is almost the same language that evolute after 800 Ad
plz when you say Makedonia, identify, cause Greece has high enough R1a in Makedonia bigger than any other Balkan country except Dalmatia. even bigger than Zagreb area
so R1a is showing Greece, none, Dalmatia, none, Poland Germany, 
meaning that in Bulgaria Romania we know that is from the Severi and came from the east of Europe, 
but in Bosnia Serbia came from abone Hungary,
so, I am not speaking about Croatia, a country and modern nationality, but for the 'original' tribe/nation before 1500 years
if it was I2 or R1a,
the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
so what do you believe?
original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?

the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)

Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.

I think you understand me well, but it is difficult for you to choose, cause modern ethnicities, are 'what we have'

----------


## LeBrok

As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!

----------


## hrvat22

> As I said before, judging by ratio of R1a clads Croatians relate the most to Czechs. Also not too far from Ukrainian Czerkasy region. It is what genetic says, it is logic!



What's wrong with you ?

Croats do not have R1a M458, they have R1a Z280 type...I told you that a hundred times..

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ymap

Croats haplogroup R1a represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subclade Z280 CTS3402

I. Rozhansky 

2013/10/18 


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel...j-civilizacii/

----------


## Garrick

> How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..
> 
> Second haplotype in the Serbian population is E1b type ... and that is different between Serbs and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..


Yes, Y-DNA is same/similar, the difference is in proportion.

You can see in Eupedia (where Maciamo collected all scientific studies):

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

I1: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 5.5% (Do you think that someone can knows according I1 who is Serb, who is Croat?)

I2a: Serbia 33%, Croatia 37% (Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?)

R1a: Serbia 16%, Croatia 24% (Do you think that someone can knows according R1a who is Serb, who is Croat? Maybe only for Z95, and other atypical clades of population of Slavic countries which exist in Serbia).

R1b: Serbia 8.5%, Croatia 8.5% (same question).

G: Serbia 2%, Croatia 2.5% (same question).

J2: Serbia 8%, Croatia 6% (same question).

E-V13: Serbia 18%, Croatia 10% (same question; this is difference only in proportion, and not drastically big).

T: Serbia 1%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).

Q: Serbia 1.5%, Croatia 1% (same question).

N: Serbia 2%, Croatia 0.5% (same question).





> Turks fought against Catholic Europe and the Serbs as Turkish allies switch to Catholicism ..... do not fool around...


Maybe you don't know the history or you're malicious?

Turks destroyed Serbian state.

Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman...an-Ottoman_War

*Austria and Serbia* *European powers, and Austria in particular, fought many wars against the Ottoman Empire, relying on the help of the Serbs that lived under Ottoman rule.* During the Austrian–Turkish War (1593–1606), in 1594, the Serbs staged an uprising in Banat, the Pannonian part of Turkey. Sultan Murad III retaliated by burning the remains of Saint Sava the most sacred saint of all Serbs. Serbs created another center of resistance in Herzegovina, but when peace was signed by Turkey and Austria, they were abandoned to Turkish vengeance. This sequence of events became usual in the centuries that followed.


About Military Frontier (Military Krajina):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Frontier

*Military Frontier or Military Border (Serbian/Croatian Vojna granica, Vojna Krajina)*The *Military Frontier* (also known as *Military Border* and *Military Krajina*; Croatian: _Vojna granica, Vojna krajina_; Serbian: Vojna granica / Војна граница, Vojna krajina / Војна Крајина; Slovene: _Vojna krajina_; German: _Militärgrenze_; Hungarian: _Katonai határőrvidék_; Romanian: _Graniţă militară_) was a* borderland of Habsburg Austria and later the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which acted as the cordon sanitaire against incursions from the Ottoman Empire*.




Demographics:

*1857*The first modern population census in the Austrian Empire was conducted in 1857 and recorded the religion of the population. The population of the Military Frontier numbered 1,062,072 inhabitants,[10] while the religious structure of the Military Frontier was:


587,269 (55,30%) Eastern Orthodox448,703 (42,26%) Roman Catholics20,139 (1,91%) Protestants5,533 (0,53%) Greek Catholics404 (0,05%) Jews

Population data by divisions:


Croatian-Slavonian Military Frontier (Total 675,817)[11]


396,843 (58,72%) Roman Catholics272,755 (40,36%) Eastern Orthodox5,486 (0,81%) Greek Catholics733 (0,11%) others

Banat Military Frontier (Total 386,255)[12]


314,514 (81,43%) Eastern Orthodox51,860 (13,43%) Roman Catholics19,418 (5,03%) Evangelists393 (0,1%) Jews70 (0,01%) others

Someone can reads:

Eastern Orthodox = Serbs;
Roman Catholics = mainly Croats and Hungarians.

You can see Serbs, Croats, Hungarians, Germans etc. were on the same side in wars with Ottomans.

Austrian Turkish wars were from 16th to 18th century. 





> It is not possible that from White Croatia comes Bosnians, Turks, Chinese and Germans .. they can come only and exclusively as Croats...it is logic..how they feel today, and which nation they belong can not change their White Croatian origin...


You can read what LeBrok wrote:




> Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?


...
By the way.

It is completely wrong to think that a haplogroup comes from some of the nation. 

At a time when haplogroups emerged nation did not exist.

Nations have formed incomparably much later from carriers of different haplogroups and they are social constructions.

----------


## hrvat22

> Yetos





> the existance of E is another case, as also the J the R1b, which are connected possibly with substractum populations like R1b can be from Mycenean times (vatin and Vucocar) or Celtic/Aromani plus R1a from 5,5ky from Vinca destruction or recent Slavic from times of Cymeon or Dusan ( I doupt, concentrations reaching more than 28% have not beeen found in found Balkans except Dalmatia)


Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick






> Serbs have been for centuries one of the main ally of Austria and Hungary against the Turks.


*Battle of Nicopolis*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis





> Do you think that someone can knows according I2a who is Serb, who is Croat?


If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...




> 587,269 (55,30%) Eastern Orthodox


 most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin

----------


## Yetos

> Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know...If it is proved that E1b comes from Greek to Albania when it was mentioned Greek state or Greek(Hellenes) as people then E1b could be Greek origin. If ancestors of White Croats live in southe Poland I can not say that these are White Croats because there is no mention White Croats before 2,000 thousand years...There at that time live there some other tribes for which I can not confirm that they are White Croats because are not mentioned as Croats same with Mycenean in Greece...You can Myceneans call Greeks but they're not called Greeks they are Myceneans..Only if their haplotypes same with Greek then we could say that this is one nation ..


you avoid answer me, and you say tottaly different,

plz read again, and aswer me clearly,

----------


## hrvat22

> Yetos





> Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones,
> in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.


In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..

----------


## hrvat22

> Yetos






> the distribution of R1a and I2 in Crotia shows clearly what I am saying,
> so what do you believe?
> original Hrvats/Croats before 1500 were I2? or R1a? I mean the ones in Zagreb I2 core? or the ones in Dalmatia R1a core?


Croatian type R1a has epicenter in southern Poland around Krakow...whether is there his source I do not know but we can assume ....when the first data about that arrive then we can talk about it, until then I do not know..

----------


## hrvat22

> you avoid answer me, and you say tottaly different,
> 
> plz read again, and aswer me clearly,


Ask me......

----------


## Garrick

> *Battle of Nicopolis*
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis


And it is irrelevant to the general conclusion. Serbia was at that time a vassal state.

Incomparably more important that the Serbs were the allies of Austria and Hungary by centuries. Serbs were defending long southern border against the Turks. And for it Serbs were highly regarded by the Austrian emperors.





> If it has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and mutation I-Y3548 everything is clearly his ancestors come to the Balkans as Croats...It is the logic...


It is only your logic. 

Every man who has that haplogroup and he is not Croat you say to him: "You must be Croat because I say it".
...

Nations are not genetic categories.





> most part of them they Orthodox Vlachs or Albanians by genetic and Croatians... smaller number of them were Serbian origin


And here you try to be malicious, but why, you don't like... ?


I gave sources with Wikipedia, here is more:

http://feefhs.org/links/croatia/milz.html

In order to stem the Turkish tide, the Habsburg court created in 1528 a zone in Croatia ruled directly from Vienna (instead of through the Hungarian nobility), in which land ownership was dependent on providing military service. *These frontier troops were predominantly Serb, Croat and German.* This zone was called the Militär Grenze (Military Frontier, Vojna krajina).
...

Rieber, A. The Struggle for the Eurasian Borderlands

https://books.google.rs/books?id=s6r...0Serbs&f=false

The soldiers, mainly Serbs, who had served during the war received tax free farm plots as frontier colonists. Their dual function was to protect the borders against the Turks... The Austrians attempted to separate the civil (tax-paying) and military (tax-exempt) elements among the Serbs...

...

http://www.h-net.org/~fisher/bosnia/...Jelavich3.html

The Serbian population of the empire lived in circumstances quite different from those of the majority of the inhabitants of the Habsburg Empire. They controlled no definite portion of territory, and they were of the Orthodox religion, which was under attack in other parts of the monarchy.

...
Billinis A., The Eagles Has Two Faces

https://books.google.rs/books?id=jrj...0Serbs&f=false

*Serbian irregulars had fought doggedly and well for the Austrians, and Serbs certainly posseded a hattred of the Turks* and the desire to live in a more developed society and economy.

...
Sorry hrvat22.

There were no Albanians in Krajina. In Military Krajina (Frontier Border) orthodox Chrisitans were Serbs (and partly in Banat, Romanians). 
...

I have no desire to bicker with you, you can find some another person.

But I will tell you why I appreciate Tito. He has tried to build brotherhood and unity and elevates above the destructive nationalisms of all kinds. He was on the right track when Yugoslav communists won the war. They made a solid basis but nationalists have acted and with support from outside they tried to undermine foundations of SFRY. Maybe that Tito allowed democratization of the country in the seventies, when he was alive, maybe the whole country was in the EU as Spain in eighties, and maybe we all would have much higher standard, and ethnic differences were as in another european multinational countries.
...

But it doesn't matter. This is not topic about Mlitary Krajina, or Croatia or another Slavic countries, etc., this is thread about Pelasgians and their DNA.

----------


## Yetos

> In the western Croatia I2a is in second place, first is R1a .... this same type R1a has a big part of 16 percent Serbs in Serbia ...Serbs have E1b haplotype second in population which has no connection with immigration Slavs and with Slavs, and western Croatia is something else...What's your logic ? ...What does language, folk customs have with genes, E1b is not Slavic haplotype and in Serbia 20 percent of the population with that haplotype speak Slavic..


ok to put the question correct,
First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats

then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
then we see the distribution in wide balkans, 
the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,

so my question is,
what do you believe?
original tribal Croats were R1a or I2?
if you 
notice and observe locally maps and distribution its easy to understand what I am talking about,
cause if Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje, 
but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2, 
and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that)

----------


## hrvat22

> ok to put the question correct,
> First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats
> 
> then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
> then we see the distribution in wide balkans, 
> the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
> while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
> watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,
> 
> ...





> f Croats were major I2 as ALL THE REST SOUTH SLAVIC, Then they possibly were 'relatives' with Bosnians and Serbs and even Skopje,



what relatives .... I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype comes from White Croatia with Croatian people to balkans who later become Bosnians, Montenegrins, etc ...what if that haplotype exists in Macedonia or Bulgaria.. same exists in Belarus, Ukraine, Slovenia, Russia and still has its source in White Croatia...Albanian E1b exists in Croatia, and again this E1b is Albanian origin, what does it matter if exists in Croatia or Slovenia..I told you that I do not know that in Macedonia exists I2a1b2a1a3 A356 haplotype...give me data which is Macedonian and Bulgarian I2a..there are more haplotypes who have White Croatian mutation....

I2a1b2a1a S17250/YP204
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a1 Z16971
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a2 Y4882
• • • • • • • • • I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983





> the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
> while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,


So what then, when we get data for age and time R1a Z280 in Balkans then we can talk, until then we can talk fairy tales .. Only thing I know is that the R1a has epicenter in the area where is source of Croatian I2a, whether it is related or not we will see...


Russian geneticist
 I. Rozhansky
2013/10/18

Apparently White Croats from Carpathians and Croats to the Adriatic they are really related peoples. About _Lusatian Sorbs_  and Danubian Serbs we can not say - they are too different lineage ...


http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel...j-civilizacii/




> but if Croats were primary R1a then Croats have nothing to do with rest South Slavic populations of I2,


How can be R1a primary when I2a which Croats have is formed in White Croatia and is in the epicenter of Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Dalmatia up to 70 percent....

It is logical that for Croats is primary I2a...It possible that is R1a formed in the southern Poland and then he will be primary for Croats along with I2a haplotype...




> and the strange the thesis of Linguists which gave Hravt and Srbian as dialects coming from one same language. (I consider Bosnian if we can identify as dialect/language, sprunk also from that


If we cam as one people Croats which language we are speak, logically Croatian..

----------


## Garrick

> ok to put the question correct,
> First we exclude E J G R1b I1 as previous, before slavic migrations, synthesis, as non characteristic of 'tribal' Serbs or Croats
> 
> then we see the 2 major or possible hgs I2 and R1a
> then we see the distribution in wide balkans, 
> the result is that in Croatia the R1a is high west of Dinaric Alps and low East,
> while I2 is high in East, in Zagreb area,
> watching Bosnia we see also something simmilar, and same in Serbia, while the r1a/I2 in more south Skopje IS OBVIOUS, south lacks of R1a, you have to travel to mainland Greek Makedonia Thessaly to find again considerable R1a quantities,
> 
> ...


He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.

But you showed him that the people of Herzegovina and the Croatian mainland is very different in haplogroups.

He didn't told me next questions:

Do you think that someone can knows according I1a (or another haplogroup) who is Serb, who is Croat?

*I2a*: Serbia *33%* about *1.170.000* males, Croatia *37%* about *790.000* males.

There are much more males I2a carriers In Serbia than in Croatia.

And some Serbian nationalist can say: I2a are Serbs by origin, they are from *White Serbia*.

Nationalists are as children.
...

But we are trying to come up with some knowledge. You can see in this forum opinions are divided: if I2a Dyn S is Balkan origin or I2a carriers came from North.

Mihaitzateo gives one interesting research:




> Here is a genetic study about Aromanians:
> Lowest Y DNA I they have is 17%:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians#Genetic_studies
> Highest I they got is 42%.
> Also,they got plenty of J2 and plenty of R1b.
> Also,they have low R1A,some group of Aromanians even have 0% R1A.
> So guess again what Y DNA mostly brought the Slavic speakers that moved around 600 AD.
> I think it is R1A clades.
> 
> ...


According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a) but much lower percentage haplogroup R1a (except for Macedonia where it is possible that R1a came from Slavic males).

(But maybe Aromanians came from White Croatia or White Serbia, hm....)

And it is possible Thracians and Illyrians were I2a carriers. According Maciamo *I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians*.




> I have given more thought about the origin of I2a-Din (L621>L147.2) and came to the following conclusion.
> 
> During the Mesolithic the I2a1 (P37.2) hunter-gatherers must have occupied a vast part of western, central and eastern Europe. Central and western European I2a1 lineages only survive at low frequencies in three newly identified subclades: L1286, L1294 and L880. The south-western M26 branch was absorbed by Neolithic farmers of the Cardium Pottery culture, whose descendants are found mostly in modern Sardinians and Basques.
> 
> The eastern branch, I2a1b (M423) were hunter-gatherers from the Carpathian region and/or from further north (Poland, Belarus, western Ukraine). Those in the Carpathian basin would have mixed with Middle Eastern Neolithic farmers and founded the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). The whole region from Romania to Poland would then have been absorbed by the Proto-Indo-European Corded Ware culture (2900-2400 BCE).
> 
> After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.
> 
> The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples (I2a1b) and Indo-Europeans (R1a) sometime between 3000 and 1500 BCE. 
> ...


...
When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed. One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people (third time).

...
Yetos, what is important to reveal.

Original I2 languages. It is probably these languages existed but they dissapeared.

Today people in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. speak Slavic language. It is same language every Serb, Bosniac and Croat can communicate each other without problems, because differences are minor.

There are opinions among some scientists that Thracian language was similar Balto Slavic, and Dacian, etc... It is not track.

But we are not without hope, maybe we can search some of I2 language but in another places (maybe Nuragic in Sardinia?).

...
Many more are not known. Important dices of knowledge is missing. Science is now going in the direction that reveals haplogroups Europeans in earlier epochs, and it brings significant new knowledge. When we know haplogroups of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians and another peoples in Balkans in the past in different epocs (for example Vinca culture, Starcevo, Dudesti etc.), progress will be evident.

----------


## Ike

> I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...
> 
> *It* *is no secret* that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..*it was logical* ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and *it is quite evident* in genetics ...
> In the record is *mentions* Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...
> 
> 
> Porphyrogenitus *stated* that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
> Priest of Duklja *wrote* about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...
> 
> *Therefore it is genetically confirmed.*


 :Useless: 




> The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
> now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss


It is a different lanaguge, as same as Australian and American are ;)





> How we have same genetics when you have less R1a haplotype then Croats..
> Second haplotype in the *Serbian* population is E1b type ... and that is different between *Serbs* and Croats in which on the second place in population is R1a..


You're intermixing Serbs and Serbians.





> *Personally I believe that 'original' tribal' Croats are the Zagreb area ones*, and were and are connected with Serbs and Bosnians, but created their own culture and nationality, as also the Bosnians, and Serbs and not the Dalmatian R1a ones, in case of oposite, R1a to was the primary of 'tribal croats, the linguistic relativity can not be explained with rest South Slavs.


That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control, derogatory terminology evaporated and they started claiming the opposite - that those no good dirty peasants, as they once used to call them, are in fact the real Croats :)

It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.




> Whether is E1b Chinese, Russian, Turkish or Mycenean does not matter because in Croatia they coming with Vlach people.....*E1b is Albanian today so this Vlacs are part of Albanian origin*...whether they were before Chinese, Turks or Greeks for me is not important because I'm not interested with this haplogroup and I do not know....


Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?

----------


## hrvat22

> Ike






> 


In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia is correct... 





> That's exactly what "real" Croats thought of themselves throughout the history. And they had disrespectful attitude towards the other part of population. Now that it turned out that there is more I2a on the territories that Croatian clergy would like to control,



ahaha biggest nationalists in the history of Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..




> It's funny to watch now, how nationalistic branches fight to be what they hated the most.


Zagreb hahaha, therefore Croatian eternal politics is borders on Drina river...





> Facepalm x2. Really? Today it is, and it wasn't before? How did it come to be Albanian? How does a nation gets an ownership over a haplogroup anyway?


Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha

They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic

----------


## noUseForAname

> There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.
> 
> Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.


Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture. 

And Definitely *Vinca Culture is not a predecessor of Mesopotamia and Egypt*

But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates *8,000 ybp* and the archeology is there *it doesnt lie*, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts. Looks like its Archaic kind of writing or symbols which obviously have meaning and could communicate through those. However definitely not as complex writing as of PEI.
Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. *Do you agree or disagree please?

*http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancie...g-world-001343

----------


## hrvat22

> Garrick






> He thinks in terms: nation = haplogroup (for example: I2a DYN S are Croats, E-V13 are Albanians etc.), but it is nonsense. And every reasonable discussion is not possible.


 I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...Is not Chinese haplotype..





> According that Aromanians have significant percentage of haplogroup I (mainly I2a)


Which specific haplotype..there are hundreds I2a..





> When Slavic peoples came to the Balkans probably I2a and R1a carriers already existed.


I2a1b2a1a3 A356 comes from White Croatia and did not come before Croats, logic..

I have no data for R1a therefore is necessary to give me data for R1a Z280 CTS3402 in Balkans...





> One study in Serbia conducted from American scientists tells that R1a came to the Serbia three times in different epochs, and two times much earlier than with Slavic people


There are hundreds haplotypes R1a that could reach Balkan thousand times, I ask you for R1a Z280 CTS3402 ...

----------


## noUseForAname

> But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.
> 
> According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.
> 
> This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.
> 
> On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.


Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...

----------


## noUseForAname

_Originally Posted by Maciamo 
Norwegians have a higher combined percentage of R1a + R1b than Belarussians and Ukrainians. Plenty of Central Asians invaded eastern Europe over the last 5000 years, almost completely eliminating R1b in the region. I explained 5 years ago that this was why R1b was so low today in its original homeland. 

The huge Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture didn't just vanish in thin air. They were gradually absorbed by PIE people (probably already since the Globular Amphora culture). Don't forget that Cucuteni-Trypillian towns were the largest in the world at the time. That explains the very significant percentage of both male and female Near Eastern lineages in western Ukraine and southern Belarus today.

Additionally, Ukrainians also have partial Greek ancestry in the south (lots of J2a).

It is especially northern Belarus and eastern Ukraine that are very high in R1a, and that is just a sign of higher recent Slavic ancestry, not a sign of more surviving Yamna ancestry. The Slavic branch descends from the Corded Ware and Abashevo cultures, not from Yamna.

_

Are you saying that most of *Greeks are descends of J2a?*....if so any more info related to this?....i would gladly appreciate it...._

 Originally Posted by Alan 
I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.


_
Would this table had an explanation as the following below?

1: Most of Early Neolithic (9,000 years) - were already populated and lived (majority) at the current modern populations (and locations) such as: Sardinian, Tuscan, Greek, Albanian, Bergamo, Spanish, South French, Basque. it looks like, more south is more ancient. Doesn't that explain that all the R1b or R1a expansion came much later to Europe?..then it would look like the R lineage came from central Asia above the baltic and through steppe as Maciamo noted (and not through Asia minor). and J2 migrated even much later towards Europe?

Then would anyone argue *which is the major Y Dna* in these south regions already within early Neolithic?

2. There are 2 hypothesis for the *roots* of indoEuropean language (9,000 years): north of Black sea and *south west Anatolia*....recent study is pretty conclusive about the south west Anatolia. This might correlate with migrations and Cultures spreading from south west Anatolia to east forming *Mesopotamia* (6,000 years) and west possibly forming *Vinca* Culture (7,500 years). 

I suppose after migration to Mesopotamia, at the same time another big migration went through Caucus above Black Sea and through the Steppe around 6,000 years ago (Maciamo noted 4,000 years ago) (probably majority of R1b and R1a)

On the other side migration from south west Anatolia through *south east balkans 7,500* years ago forming Vinca culture, although there is no evidence yet that they spoke indo european. Might this group be* E-V13?*.... as we know so far it is 10,000 years old and its roots are the far south east balkans. 


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/



*Edit Post Reply Reply With Quote *

----------


## noUseForAname

_Originally Posted by Angela 
If you look at the chart on page 25, the division is very clear. The orange is Neolithic Farmer, although I don't know if it's exactly the same as the component in the prior Lazardis paper. Here, the standard is Starcevo and LBKT, and thus Stuttgart shows a little WHG, as does the Spanish early Neolithic. Still, it's Early Neolithic Farmer in Europe and EEF is the closest term, as Alan pointed out above. The blue is, of course, WHG, based on Loschbour. The green is Yamnaya. That component is not based on the R1b1 hunter gatherer who was so similar to the R1a1 hunter gatherer but who was, indeed, found in the Samara Valley. The green Yamnaya component is based on the later and downstream R1b samples from Yamnaya, and thus autosomally are half Eastern Hunter Gatherer and half "Near Eastern". I agree with Alan that this is the "West Asian" component that Dienekes has been chasing all these years. In my opinion, however, it should not be seen as some totally foreign component. I think they could have extracted the majority EEF like component. 


(Alan is also right that ENF has no place in the discussion. That is a component found through modeling by Eurogenes. It is not, unlike these components, based on an ancient set of genomes.)

It's interesting that a little sliver of Yamnaya made it into the Gamba samples. You can also see how the blue WHG component made something of a comeback in the MN of Germany. Obviously, that didn't happen in other areas. Then there's the big explosion of it with Corded Ware, and lower levels in Bell Beaker. 

There are all sorts of questions that arise as to why individual groups have their own particular set of percentages, as well. The Greeks (I believe the samples were taken in a northern part of the mainland) and the Albanians, for instance, why do they have less Yamnaya, when in addition to what might have come originally, they were invaded by Slavic speaking tribes who would have carried some with them? Also, why do they have more WHG than their immediate neighbors? The PCA is also interesting:

The PCA is also interesting:
Attachment 7074
You can see how the later Yamnaya samples cluster right between the EHGs and the Near Easterners.
Does anyone know, by the way, where the authors talk about the percentage of population replacement in the south?

_
*noUseForAname*

Great point *Angela*...
Greeks and Albanians have less later Yamna *maybe cause* (if we can suppose this way) as the predominant % of their dna is E-V13 (over 40%), if we add another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% EEF and WHG. 
Yamna is only 15% (graph above) and it could be mainly through R1b and R1a, however it tops 25% (Greek and Albanian), we miss the 10%, maybe the 10% (R1b or R1a) was already at those regions *before Yamna?* 
Then how about J2 which has 18%?...i don't have any comments here for now...

Albanians have mostly E-V13 (39%) Modern Greeks (19%), then R1b (18.6%) Modern Greeks (11.7%) migrated from steppe, then J2 (18.6%) Modern Greeks (17%) from middle east and in the end slavic tribes R1a (5%) Modern Greeks (16%)
now historically speaking modern greeks were slavinized (R1a) much more than the Albanians

----------


## noUseForAname

_ Originally Posted by Sile 
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations

Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N

Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1

Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1

Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1

Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1

Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1

Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1

Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5

Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1







Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1

Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1

Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2

Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1

Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1

Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5

Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1

Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1

Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2

Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1




_
So if *Maciamo* haplogroup timeline is correct, and according to *early neolithic skeletons found*:

_1:_ Can we say that the early Neolithic people *indigenous natives of Europe* (at least as per ybp noted) are *E-V13* (10,000 ybp) *G2a2* (9,000) and *I2a1* (8.000 ybp) ? 
Current populations with highest I2a are:

Bosnian Croats 71%
Bosnians 56%
Sardinians 42.3%
Norwegians 40.2%
Swedes 40%
Danes 38.7%
Slovenians 38.7%
Croats 37%
Serbians 33%
Bosnians Serbs 31%
Icelanders 34%
Dutch 32.9%
Sami 31%
Peak or *roots of I2a1* seems to be current Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and south west Serbia
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the 5 of them in Sweeden.


Current Populations with highest G2a2 are:
Osetians 60%
Georgians 32%
Although G2a2 already in Europe at the early Neolithic its roots looks like its current Georgia and Osetia (caucasus mountains)
And it has much lower numbers with that of E-V13 and !2a1


Current populations with highest E-V13 are:
Albanians in Kosovo 47.3%
Albanians in Macedonia 39%
Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania 39%
Greeks in Greece 31%
Italians in Sicily 27.3%
Peak or *roots of E-V13* seems to be current borders of Kosovo, west Macedonia, Albania, Greece (especially Peloponnese and south Greece with higher %)
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the one in Spain


_2:_ Then came the migrations at early 5,000 ybp with R1 across black sea through *Yamna

3:* Then looks like *J2* migrated the latest from middle east to Europe

for more quality info please go below..

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22

----------


## Taranis

> Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture. But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates *8,000 ybp* and the archeology is there *it doesnt lie*, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts. 
> Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. *Do you agree or disagree please?
> 
> *http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancie...g-world-001343


You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.

----------


## noUseForAname

> You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.


Thank you for agreeing (*at last*), my point was not to argue about higher level Culture and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culture or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the *only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13*

Your point about true PEI (Minoan) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete (Minoan) would probably had take much and much more time.
http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue *Pelazgians* had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "_...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
_ This message belongs to *Herodot*, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that *Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek* population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands.
That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered *Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian
*
According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete.

Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt *Lemnos's signs* are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European.

It could also mean that *Anciant Greek* (PEI) language came there at around 3,000 ybp from the steppe *through Yamna*

Therefore i only suppose that indigenous native inhabitants (Neolithic) of those areas were mostly *E-V13* (probably small numbers and spread around Europe) untill at least 3,000 ybp period, then came the R* lineage who brought higher civilization and *PEI through* *Yamna* and were probably more in numbers. It might also be that the majority of Yamna were R1b with some R1a and J2. Therefore population grew much faster with the coming of R1b J2 and R1a.

I still argue from the starting of this thread That Pelasgians were the indigenous inhabitants before Ancient Greeks came, and now with the newest study it makes even more sense that they came through Yamna with PEI. Maciamo noted that Ancient greeks might have J2 as its major group, i argue it could be either J2 or R1b. (if we find the ancient greek skeletons we would know)
Therefore i argue (as only one possibility is arisen), that Pelazgians or whatever they were called are the descendent of *E-V13* and they were Neolithic inhabitants of current locations of Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions. 

To put in one word and not taking into account the later names like Greeks and Albanians, before 3,000 ybp there were inhabitants called Pellazgians, then through Yamna and its population the new name *ancient greeks* or *Mycenaean* appeared (who mostly were these new inhabitants who conquered Pelazgian regions). Then we have modern Greeks or Hellenes who mostly descend from inhabitants of Yamna (who were called Ancient Greeks) and they also descend from Pelazgians in smaller numbers. And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI *Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp*.

----------


## Yetos

> Thank you for agreeing (*at last l*), my point was not to argue about higher level Culture and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culture or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
> And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the *only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13*
> 
> Your point about true PEI  Minoan) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete  Minoan) would probably had take much and much more time.
> http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124
> 
> This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of menaings), some argue *Pelazgians* had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.
> 
> Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "_...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
> ...



what?

how you exclude J2?
in fact J2 is the main HG that might be the Pelasgians, since is connected with all naval and historical possiblities of sea peoples,

E-V13 is found in Iberia not in balkans or in minor asia,

IT IS LATER THAN HETTIT, BY THE FACTS,

ONLY BY ASSUPTION WE DARE TO SAY IT NEOLITHIC IN BALKANS,
NO EVIDENCE THAT EXISTED IN NEOLITHIC BALKANS OR MINOR ASIA

*AND CAN YOU GIVE A LINK ABOUT PELASGIANS IN DODONA?*
CAUSE MAINLY ARE MENTIONED AS MINOR ASIA AND AEGEAN,

cause Δωδωνη is the homeland of Greek/Hellenic language according all Linguists, and not home of Pelasgians


the thing is that Pelasgians lived in Aegean before Hellenes, but keep coming even at the times after Myceneans
by the remnants in cyclades Islands we know that start decreasing after the sea peoples era, and around 700 BC existed few towns/villages, or where Hellenized 
and by the connection with others we know that were not Vinca's although they knew and trade with Varna
Vinca's might the ones called καυκωνες

the most possible if we compare Hettit with Mycenean archaiological is that Pelasgians are connected with Τελχινοι, Αριμαιοι Κρανοι and generally Hatti or Arzawa/assuwa
Κρανοι might means helmet wearers (we knew pelasgians as also thyrrenians wear extraordinary helmets)
or from Κραγος mountain Cragus,
τελχινοι were people considered as half human half snake, or half human half fish(dolphin) (compare medussa, gorgon etc)
both are also found in Thyrrenia and minor Asia palaces

considering that these areas Agean N Greece, Crete, lower Thrace, SW minor Asia lack or have low E-V13 but high J2 then is more possible Pelasgians to was J2 than E-V13
that also fits with the rest areas of the possible Sea Peoples like Phillistine Cyllikia except Sardinia,

----------


## Garrick

> I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...


This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.

Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.

Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?

Wrong.

Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.

And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.

Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.

Place of origin?

It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.

People were moving, changing places and mixing.

In one tribe, someone could find people with different haplogroups and origin.

For example, over time, in the tribe could become dominant descendants of a stranger that has nothing to do with the original members of the tribe.

Are the carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, Americans, Germans etc.

Yes, members of different nations in the world can be carriers, who cares.

Of course, Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs are close but unfortunately according the recent history far from friendly, other factors affecting, and here is the crucial religious moment.
...

Those who attempt to bind the nation with haplogroup they fall into an unsolvable problem.

What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?

For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).

But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.

----------


## hrvat22

> What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?
> 
> For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).
> 
> But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.



E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..

----------


## Yetos

> E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.
> 
> 
> You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..
> 
> In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..



???
example
I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?

----------


## noUseForAname

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with *Armenian-Phrygian-Greek*, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch. If we are talking for the same period then how did it get there?..... as with the *newest Yamna theory* all the European languages derived from the steppe and corded ware 4,500 ybp and spread PEI into Europe. This looks like its the contrary to what i thought that PEI came to regions of Greece and Albania through Yamna and the steppe at least 3,000 ybp. Or it might have *got there before Yamna*, which might be possible as south east Anatolia is very close to Greece and Albania. Any other scientific source and commenting would be gladly appreciated





http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124
http://www.shh.mpg.de/36925/Nature_02_2015

----------


## Maleth

> ???
> example
> I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
> and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
> and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?


With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779

----------


## Maleth

> _ Originally Posted by Sile 
> in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations
> 
> Culture
> Country
> YBP
> Hg
> Simple hg
> N
> ...



Do not forget that all the sites that have been studied are more or less alps and above were dna was possible to be extracted. The Spanish one was lucky as it was far north bordering on France. Here you are discussing a half baked story (Just to be generous) When one considers the climate conditions of a mere few thousands years ago there is so much yet you to discover south the Alps were hardly any dna have been taken yet (and that includes Middle east and North Africa) and were it seems that life was more populous. At this stage until we have the full picture no one can come to any final conclusions. Just speculation and assumptions, although we can say we can have a* part* of the picture but far off from a whole one.

----------


## Ike

> In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia *is correct*...


That could be correct if those people came from White Croataia 50 years ago, and if Porphyrogenitus lived to write about it some 40 years ago. But, since we don't know what was the genetic background of White Croatia 1500 years ago, and since we are not even 100% sure where it was, it is only an assumption.





> ahaha biggest nationalists* in the history of* Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..


Your history spans back only 30-70 years. 

If that was the "epicenter of Croatian people", why isn't it in Croatia today? Why had Croatia fought to capture territories of Krajina which were +80% Serbian in majority, and left the core of Croatian nationality (which was 95% Croatian) out of the Croatian borders? There were no Serbian or Bosniak soldiers there, Croatians had a sovereignty over there.





> Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha
> They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic


Vlach and Albanians are not the same.

----------


## Ike

> This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. *Surely not PEI*.
> 
> And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) *looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians* as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp.


OK, we had Pelasgians who were surely not IE, and now we have their "direct descendants" Albanians who are PIE, but separate brunch from other bordering peoples. How did Pelasgians start to speak this new language? What people came and learned them to speak it, and gave them a new name?

----------


## Yetos

> With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779


*
@ maleth*,

search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,

what you do not see is hidden,
compare this 2 and you will realize that are the same,

I do not have phobia with E, simply I wonder why some demonising it? and push the limit, to prove that is something that is not, aren't you?
search deep, and then learn the Balkanic propaganda of all balkans, 
then you will realize, what these 2 want to prove and claim

usage of parahistory, and paralinguistc was the propaganda of yesterday, 
usage of genetic is the propaganda of future,

 next thing is that E spoke IE, since the mtDNA of the area is more IE,
J1 is Semitic not Caucasian origin, since some J1 are marks of arabs and jews
and I2b1 is brother of R1a, but came same time from Heaven, and split, and habitant different, but are same

and the other is showing as naval and minor Asian the E, the most indifferent hg of all, and exclude J the most possible Hg, and most naval of all in Mediterenean, and not only

combine, what you get?
my phobia?

----------


## Garrick

> E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.
> 
> 
> You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..
> 
> In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..



Mutations are root of human variation. About 99.9% of human genome is exactly the same across the whole human race. Most regions of DNA are surveyed by looking at representative sections, i.e. markers. Every marker has specific variations called alleles. Looking at allele values for several markers across a stretch of DNA can be important. The set of allele values for a set of markers across a strech of DNA is haplotype. People with similar haplotypes for a certain region of DNA are more closely related than people with different haplotypes. The number of differences between someone's haplotype and that of another person tell us approximately how many generations we have to go back in order to find common ancestor.

What I wrote:




> This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.
> Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.
> *Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?*
> *Wrong.*
> *Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.*
> And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.
> Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.
> Place of origin?
> It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.
> ...


You can go in nationalistic sites and there you can have like-minded. But here is different situation. It is pure waste of time.

And 39% Croats (42% is random mistake) according Eupedia are not I2a or R1a. And they are not Croats?!

Perhaps this is pretentious but maybe some Croats really trying to think in terms of blood and soil.

I'm half Serb (paternal), for me it is not important if I I2a1b2a1a3 A356 , or I1, or E-V13, or etc.

Because "*nations are not biological units.Human history is a constant story of migration, warfare, intermarriage, assimilation, synthesis and imitation*" (Maseland).

In Belgrade there are about 10.000 people from north Africa/Middle East who are second and third generation and lot of them voluntarily declare themselves as Serbs.




> among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.


Realy you think that E1b is Albanian?

It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).

You can read: E1b1b

Austria 8%
Belarus 4%
Belgium 5%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12%
Bulgaria 23.5%
Czech Republic 6%
Cyprus 20%
Denmark 2.5%
...
France 7.5%
Germany 5.5%
Greece 21%
Hungary 8%
Italy 13.5%
...
Macedonia 21.5%
Malta 9%
Moldova 13%
Montenegro 27%
...
Chuvash (Russia) 13%
Mordvins (Russia) 9%
Tatars (Russia) 10%
...
Serbia 18%
Slovakia 6%
Slovenia 5%
...
Ukraine 5.5%
Etc.


And all of them are Albanians just they doesn't know that they are Albanians.

----------


## Garrick

> With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
> 
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779


I think that there is a misunderstanding.

Yetos explained that with haplogroup G2a3a he is Greek, he only answered to the wrong logic interlocutor that E1b is Albanian i.e. haplogroup = nation.

Someone can notice that the two interlocutors try to squeeze propaganda style rather than serious discussion.

----------


## Maleth

> *
> @ maleth*,
> 
> search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
> if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,


Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.
> 
> Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.


True that Maleth, looks like Yetos is not transparent at all, comments likeMy E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), this is unacceptable, Yetos please give and comments on the sources or you will be pushing me *to report* your posts. And this *applies to others too,* we are welcomed to give on the opinions based on sources but not giving our own ideas (sometimes ridiculous) based on nothing, give a source and then comment based on that and not like saying E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian *PLEASE*.

----------


## noUseForAname

> There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.


I dont see how a scientific paper can be so "badly dissected" as you mention with only couple of comments on that thread, and from them that (i think) are not scientist. 

The proposed homelands by this paper is *indeed south west Anatolia* and not north of Black Sea, therefore i think it spread from south east Anatolia to north Mesopotamia and even further to Tocharian, on the other side it spread through Caucus and then the steppe through Yamna at around 4,500 ybp. This might also correlate with the newest research of Yamna and PEI. So this make pretty much sense about the balto slavic....

http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

----------


## Ike

> My E-V13 neighbor *is Palestinian baptised Albanian* (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.


He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.

----------


## Maleth

> He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.


How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.

----------


## Yetos

@ Maleth

read this




> You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... *if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived.* How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..
> 
> In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..



there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, at 1860 moved to 5th Avenue NY most, some still live here,
and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?

after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessaloniki and around towns,
some are living  'next door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?

and to go more deep.

Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
were E Hg carriers IE speakers?

so search better who is the racist,


*now to be honest,* 
I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density?????? I am not a calcutator neither a genetist, but I believe someone can help, or you understand
I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century lived in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, *which might be due to rate of reproduction*, what I mean? search Deutshland, which might have not for example X hg, suddenly X enters antd reproduce with 2 woman (that is allowed and legal, if you make 2 marriages and a divorce) having 4-6 children with each and 50% of boys gives an average of 4-6 sons X carriers,
and the Z Hg due to religion makes one or none marriage with average of 2-3 children means reproduce with 1,5 factor per generation,
result????

and to finalize,
*even if E is neolithic*, why an E carrier in Bulgaria for example should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times, and assimilated by Bulgarians?

*if you do not understand* the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians, so they are autochthonus pre IE, and all E in Balkans are Albanians, and they their Language is not a language of IE (R1xyz) but the mother of IE language,
 away from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, or a later migration, (both possible) who got assimilated by IE,
*so I ask you,* a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?
*your problem is what? the word Palestinian? ok if I used word Cypriot or Maltese, would make any difference?
*
*plz feel free to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above and bellow first,*


and post again?
"*if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors  lived."
*I ask,
could that man in Croatia to be son of a Sicilian or a Cillician that followed a Roman legion? or a Roman master? or a Roman officer at his villa? or a Christian priest? even a forgoten hunted Jew? why we baptise him Albanian or Serb or Greek?

----------


## Maleth

> @ Maleth
> 
> read this
> 
> there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, some still live here,
> and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessaloniki and around towns,
> some are living 'next door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?


1) There are E's and E's and other E's. If one is not specific the one is creating a confused and unspecific picture that will help no argument or debate

2) minority of Jews in Makedonia would come in J1's J2's and mostly E-34 and probably never be part of any study on Greek population as when studies are conducted the people are chosen for authenticity and not everyone can participate, so the argument of Jews in Makedonia visa vi the high amount of E-V13 in Greece as a whole holds no water and defiantly not related to Palestians or Jews. Lets be reasonable. Not difficult.

3) The same with Palestinians. They come in G2a, E (but minimal E-V13 definatly not majority in the E group) J's. The other haplogroups seem non existant to you and never seem to comment on them. So 2) is very relevant in this case too. I am E-V13 and been baptized a Christian but Im not an Albanian and Albanians are not just E-V13 but a considerable percentage like all the countries in the region. 




> and to go more deep.
> 
> Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
> were E Hg carriers IE speakers?
> 
> so search better who is the racist,


Its possible the main driving force for IE was R1a but the region is made up of much more then just R1a so how come you feel E should be excluded from the assimilation of so many Haplotypes that characterise the region, then console yourself that E foreigners have intruded and had lots of babies? But the rest seems to fit in well. Im just trying to understand your logic. What about the J's that make a big chunk of your population? My Goodness, what a crisis!

T_he rise of_ _archaeogenetic evidence which uses genetic analysis to trace migration patterns also added new elements to the origins puzzle. In terms of genetics, the subcladeR1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroupR1a1 is thought to have originated in either theEurasian Steppe_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans


*



now to be honest,


*


> I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
> But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
> and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
> besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density??????
> I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
> if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century lived in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
> as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, which might be due to rate of reproduction,
> 
> and to finalize,
> *even if E is neolithic*, why an E carrier in Bulgaria should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times?


Of course I do not agree with you and I have made my opinion known backed by studies around. Its no secret
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

I am open to new theories as long as they are scientifically based and not just some theory to fit an agenda or an illusion to kind of justify a phobia.

E-V13 has nothing to do with Jews or Palestinians but I prefer to rely on professionals with serious studies when I am searching for knowledge and understanding. I have no problem if E-V13 (which is only found in the Balkans in any significant numbers) originate with Australian Aborigines or with the Sami's. But correct information is what matters most and not what feeds a fantasy.

_We found that the Y-chromosome gene pool in modern Bulgarians is primarily represented by Western Eurasian haplogroups with ~ 40% belonging to haplogroups E-V13 and I-M423, and 20% to R-M17. Haplogroups common in the Middle East (J and G) and in South Western Asia (R-L23*) occur at frequencies of 19% and 5%, respectively. Haplogroups C, N and Q, distinctive for Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations, occur at the negligible frequency of only 1.5%...........

Eastern Bulgaria indicating that the Balkan Mountains have been permeable to human movements. The lineage analysis provided the following interesting results: (i) R-L23* is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

_http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779_

_

*



if you do not understand


*


> the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians,
>  away from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, who got assimilated by IE,
> *so I ask you,* a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?
> 
> plz feel free to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above first,


I dont agree that Albanians have some kind of patent on E-V13 if they think that, they are ridiculous but its not even possible to think that because the regions is very similar in its percentages mix of haplogroup. E-V13 is not the only haplogroup found in modern Albanians. What happened 10,000 years ago and all the events that followed are not the same. However as an outsider I feel that I also know that Albanians are unjustly being told about their genealogy often nastily as if they have dropped in the Balkans from outer space with a malicious agenda in mind. The fact is they have a right like everybody else to defend their position like everybody else does. Dna results do show that Albanian People *did* *not* fall from space and are very much part and parcel of the Balkans no matter the petty arguments that are brought without any serious scientific backing.

----------


## Yetos

@ Maleth,


your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,
but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,

again you tell me nothing more, and clearly since you did not deny that E-v13 is not a mark of a ceratin population,
BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST 
"my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?"s
since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?
as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)

Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube

perhaps you are refering to this
<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

*and this?*
<<In the plot of Figure 3C, the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the oposite, nothing
possibilities

----------


## noUseForAname

_Originally Posted by LeBrok 
In order to make such maps we need a lot of data from all over the Europe. By the nature of this data collection it will be a self reporting project. It is not the best way, but it might be the only way to gather data for these maps. Please post your EEF, WHG, EEF numbers with place of birth, or place of birth of your parents if they came from different region than you were born in.

Little explanation of these admixtures:

These admixtures can roughly tell you about your origin. 
WHG - West Hunter Gatherers, were the Mesolithic Europeans spread pretty much all over the Europe around 10 to 5 thousand BCE.
EEF - Early European Farmers, were the Neolithic inhabitants of Europe, the first farmers who came 10 thousand years ago from Near East and first settled in Balkans and the rest of South Europe. In next 5 thousand years they've spread to every corner of Europe.
ANE - Ancient North Eurasians, the hunter-gatherers and nomads from far East Europe and Central Asia. Latest research papers point to Indo-Europeans bringing ANE to every place in Europe.

Example:
Poland, Siedlce (country, city or region)
EEF - 45
WHG - 39
ANE - 16

One can say that I'm 39% very ancient European, 45% farmer from Near East, and 16% Indo-European. Or that I'm 55% Hunter-Gatherer and 45% Farmer.

More information:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html

Some data from the paper by Lazaridis:
EEF WHG ANE 
0.781 0.092 0.127 -- Albanian
0.931 0 0.069 -- Ashkenazi_Jew
0.593 0.293 0.114 -- Basque
0.418 0.431 0.151 -- Belorussian
0.715 0.177 0.108 -- Bergamo
0.712 0.147 0.141 -- Bulgarian
0.561 0.293 0.145 -- Croatian
0.495 0.338 0.167 -- Czech
0.495 0.364 0.141 -- English
0.322 0.495 0.183 -- Estonian
0.554 0.311 0.135 -- French
0.675 0.195 0.13 -- French_South
0.792 0.058 0.151 -- Greek
0.558 0.264 0.179 -- Hungarian
0.394 0.456 0.15 -- Icelandic
0.364 0.464 0.172 -- Lithuanian
0.932 0 0.068 -- Maltese
0.411 0.428 0.161 -- Norwegian
0.457 0.385 0.158 -- Orcadian
0.713 0.125 0.163 -- Pais_Vasco
0.817 0.175 0.008 -- Sardinian
0.39 0.428 0.182 -- Scottish
0.903 0 0.097 -- Sicilian
0.809 0.068 0.123 -- Spanish
0.746 0.136 0.118 -- Tuscan
0.462 0.387 0.151 -- Ukrainian
Here is the explanation how you can calculate your admixtures:
http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html

_

_noUseForAname_
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (*possibly from Balkans*) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?). 

This might correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.
It also correlates with I2a1...So only possible early Neolithic in Europe I2a1 and E-V13?....Then I2a1 and E-V13 has nothing to do with near east farmers nor even migrating from the near east

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

On the other side looks like its pretty complicated, if we can say the more Yanmaya R* (4,500) from the graph the less Mesolithic or Neolthic, and more the WHG and EEF then more Mesolithic and early Neolithic. Credit goes to Sardinains and Bulgarians with pretty high I2a1 and Albanians and Greeks with E-V13
How come then Spain, tuscany, basques, Bergamo has one of the highest EEF and its very very high in R1b?....

----------


## noUseForAname

_Originally Posted by noUseForAname 
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).
_
_LeBrok
_To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

_noUseForAname 
__This correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.
_
_LeBrok
_If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.

----------


## noUseForAname

_Originally Posted by LeBrok 
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.
_

_noUseForAname
_Recent discoveries in Europe, such as Cyprus and mainland Greece has shown that farming started early in south east Europe. In Franchthi Cavein Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested before c. *11,000 bc**,* although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bc appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19][20] in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc*

*Anthropological and archaeological evidence from sites across Southwest Asia and North Africaindicate use of wild grain (e.g., from the c. 20,000bc site of Ohalo II in Israel, many Natufian sites in theLevant and from sites along the Nile in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops of agriculture appear: first emmer andeinkorn wheat, then hulled barley, peas,lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas and flax. These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) sites in the Levant
By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

What i understand is not the near East (considering Syria, Anatolia, Mesopotamia) but the far north east Africa (M-78 peak) and the very south west Levant like Ohalo.
So that might mean that by *10,000 BC* there was already *farming* in the far *south east Balkans* that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.
It looks like the peak was south east Africa which at the same time spread in one direction at Crete and then Peloponnese and the other spread through Levant Syria and reached Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC. 

It also correlates with M-78 and E-V13 link through north east Africa and not the other way around through north Levant and Anatolia.

Maybe not as a minority as you mention because who else was there before G2a I2a1 and E-V13 and with higher numbers?, i Would suppose (at *early Neolithic through mid Neolithic*) the Majority in Europe was:

1: I2a1 & I1
2: E-V13 
3: G2a1 (dont know why or how by today is still low) 
4: R1b (became a majority after 4,000 ybp)
5: R1a (pushed more south to current Europe from Today Russia after around 4,500 ybp)
J2 not much info, (probably came in more numbers after the bronze age

----------


## Maleth

> @ Maleth,
> 
> 
> your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
> your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,


Jolly good




> but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,


Its not a problem for me, it is kind of obvious that E-V13 is a Balkanic marker which did not happen with the arrival of Turks or whatever causes so much hate in your region, but obvious it has been there for thousands of years and VERY MUCH INCLINED to believe that it has been born there too (Bulgaria maybe?!). But I would not be too presumptions to say that is a fact because its not yet. The indications neither lay to Palestinians neither with slaves and neither with Gypsies, or North Africans for that matter (all absurd comments presented on this forum with a particular agenda of course). E-V13 has a different route, its not the same as E-M81 and neither as E-M34. What baffles me is your lack of pride in your own people since E-V13 is also often called a Greek Marker (which like all others it is not as its shared by a group of countries anyway) Now If I had to reason that with my own people I would consider myself to have a problem espesially in an autosmal contest when most haplogroups have become intertwined one way or another. 






> BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST


I symatitically mentioned you have a phobia never said you were racist. Phobia and racism are two different things. I believe nationalism is a huge thing in the balkans not only with Albanians but that is a result of more recent event and maybe terrible memories and nothing to do with DNA. DNA shows you are brothers and sisters but decided on different carriers so you all hate each other for it.




> "my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?




fine you mentioned this the forth time. You are telling me to understand it. Maybe you can use more appropriate words? 

*)Palestinians are people who live in the Middle east and passed their amount of tromas with deplacments and so on.
*) Baptism is a religious term not sure what your connotation is in regards to Albanians




> since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?


You are making big efforts to find some kind of justification for your E-V13 in the Balkans. What I told you is E-V13 is only 1 to 3 % in Palestine. There are much more E-V34 and E-M124, but why you need to single out E-V13 is beyond me - seriously. E-V13 comes in 45% in the Peloponnese (are they your enemies?) for example so how can you compare? E-V13 is not E-M81 and neither E-M124 also not E-V34. We are talking about splits here that happened far much earlier the Ottoman occupation in the Balkans.




> as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
> and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)


Again you are using same tactic to single out E-V13 as some kind of foreign additions to a homogeneous ancient group. Even on today genetic studies E-V13 in Jewish groups is minmal. The strongest is E-M34 and lots of J1's and J'2s. So you chose for whatever reason to single out E-V13 amoungst a Jewish group. So according to your logic the Jews gave the balkans their E-V13 marker. If so there should be MUCH more J1's and we know there are much J2 (which incorrectly used to be called the Phoenician marker). Lets add this theory with that of Slaves, gypsies, and north Africans to keep the debate lively and well. 




> Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
> Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube
> 
> perhaps you are refering to this
> <<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>
> 
> *and this?*
> <<In the plot of Figure 3C, the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
> PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the opposite, nothing
> possibilities


I did not say it, the paper does and it does not look amateurish to me either. Do you think all these papers have a nationalistic agenda?

Ed. and to be more complete and hope I do not add to your horrors (sorry if it upsets you) that all the minimal E-V13 admixtures in Jewish Arab and North Africa societies can well be a result of Greek expansion in Greek classical times as Greek migrations to these lands is VERY WELL documented and defiantly not the other way round.

----------


## Ike

> How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.


Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.

----------


## Maleth

> Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.


ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it.  :Rolleyes:   :Grin:

----------


## Yetos

> ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it.


baptise and βαφω βαφη baphe βαπτιζω,

word in Koine and modern Greek wich means I GIVE NEW STATUS/PAINT/NAME,

Βαπτω = Ι paint
Baptise = I input in liguid paint or chemicals something to become clean,

it originally had the meaning in mettalurgy, in works like plating

in Christianity Christians confess
'Eν βαπτισμα εις αφεσιν αμαρτιων'

one baptism in oρder of sin absolution

means the old man enters the dye/water cleans and transform and GETS A NEW NAME AND A NEW ID,

*so the word Baptise means to give a new ID to someone*

so by the phrase 
My Palestinian neighor , should I baptise him Albanian?

means that with




> You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... *if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors  lived.* How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..
> 
> In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..



*we baptise people to something, WHICH IS WRONG

and is not my phobia ΦΟΒEΙΑ (Φοβος the dog of Ares/March)


*besides* a*bout the Link you gave I read it,
it combines PC123 with Y-Dna to get the age,
but little bit southern
only I1 is PC1 and E is PC4 much later than PC2 
how you combine that? what you get from that combination?

----------


## Garrick

Yes Yetos, reputation.

People make fudge "to prove" what can not be proved.

Some wrong need to fabricate a "national superiority".

----------


## Garrick

> Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...


Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.

The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.

But I will open new thread.

...
My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.

----------


## Maleth

> besides* a*bout the Link you gave I read it,
> it combines PC123 with Y-Dna to get the age,
> but little bit southern
> only I1 is PC1 and E is PC4 much later than PC2 
> how you combine that? what you get from that combination?


It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) *haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15*,* J-M410* representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)

----------


## Garrick

> It means:-
> 
> Conclusion,
> 
> Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) *haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15*,* J-M410* representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.
> 
> Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)


Maleth
Yetos spoke about different things, that someone cannot identify haplogroup with nation, these are two completely different things. 

For example:




> among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.


And I reacted:




> Really you think that E1b is Albanian?
> 
> It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).
> 
> You can read: E1b1b
> 
> Austria 8%
> Belarus 4%
> Belgium 5%
> ...


...
I think to understand what confuse you.

In the Balkans when we say *baptised* (it doesn't matter which language) it has more meanings, not only administering baptism (in the church).

Meanings: to mark, to designate, to name, to address etc.

He said in the following meaning to hrvat22:

"*my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I* (because he is carrier of haplogroup E-V13) *consider him as Albanian*?"

In another words, he said that haplogroup is completely different than nation, that members of different nations can be E-V13 carriers; for that he can only be right.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.
> 
> The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.
> 
> But I will open new thread.
> ...
> My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.


Can you send me the *source please?*

Once again if you have gone through the threads (and if your interested to read more) and online there is a majority that claim that Ancient Greek and Albanian language is already split at around 3,000 ybp, i don't want to reiterate thing over and over again....

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while* Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic* and unrelated to the eastern branch, therefore it is not a brach of an Indic/Iranian language.*
*






http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/

----------


## noUseForAname

This is why i meant that more south is more ancient in current Europe, as far as we are talking about early Neolithic, and if we are talking about indigenous *natives of European DNA* (at least for Early Neolithic period), not taking into account current Russia


Haplogroup
Possible time of origin
Possible place of origin




I2
17,000 years ago
Balkans







I2b
13,000 years ago
Central Europe







I2a
11,000 years ago
Balkans












E1b1b-V13
8,500 years ago
Balkans


I2b1
9,000 years ago
Germany


I2a1
8,000 years ago
Sardinia


I2a2
2,500 years ago
Poland, Central Europe


E1b1b-M81
5,500 years ago
Maghreb


I1
5,000 years ago
Scandinavia


R1b-L21
4,000 years ago
Central or Eastern Europe


R1b-S28
3,500 years ago
around the Alps


R1b-S21
3,000 years ago
Frisia or Central Europe


I2b1a
< 3,000 years ago
Britain







this is the thread...http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

----------


## Sile

> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0
> http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
> pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf
> https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/


It is AMAZING that albanian is such an old language that Greek and Roman historians have never mention or recorded it , they mention and recorded all the Anatolian branch as per above the Albanian group and they mention and recorded what is below the Albanian branch.................it seems very very strange that Albanian which sits in the middle is completely missing.

----------


## noUseForAname

Here is the E-V13 percentage for specific populations and specific locations.

Very interesting percentage by a specific location


*Population*
*--------------------------*
*

Albanians(Kosovar)*
*Language*
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
 R1b
-------


21.10
 R1a
-------


4.42
 I 
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
 *E-V13*
---------


*47.37*
 J
---------


J2=16.7
 G
-----


0
 N
---


0
 T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
*R*eference 
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]

*Greeks (Peloponnese)*
IE (Greek)
36
—
—
—
*47*
—
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Greeks (South)*
IE (Greek)
46
19.6
2.2
23.9
*43.5*
—
6.5
—
2.2
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Cantabrians(Pasiegos)*
IE (Italic)
56
—
—
—
*42.9*
—
—
—
—
—
Cruciani2004[20]

*Albanians(Macedonia)*
IE (Albanian)
64
18.8
1.6
I1=4.5
I2a=12.5
*39.1*
J1=6.3
J2=15.6
1.6
0.0
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Greeks (North)*
IE (Greek)
96
14.6
18.8
12.5
*35.4*
—
5.2
—
2.1
L=1
Zalloua2008[31]

*Italians (East Sicily)*
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
*29.0*
—
5.0
—
5.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Italians (Sicily)*
IE (Italic)

—
—
8.8
*27.3*
23.8
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Cypriots*
IE (Greek)
45
9.0
2.0
—
*27.0*
—
—
—
—
—
Rosser2000[13]

*Italians (South)*
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
*26.0*
—
15.0
—
3.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Albanians*
IE (Albanian)
55
18.2
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
*27.5*
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Greeks*
IE (Greek)
84/92
—
—
—
*21.0*
6.5
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Greeks (Macedonia)*
IE (Greek)
57
14.0
12.3
I1=8.8
I2a=21.0
*22.9*
J1=1.8
J2=14.1
1.8
—
1.8
—
Battaglia 2008[5]

*Ashkenazi Jews*
IE (Germanic, West)
79
—
12.7
—
*22.8*
43.0
—
—
—
—
Nebel2001[9]

*Serbs (Bosnia)*
IE (Slavic, South)
81
6.2
13.6
40.7
*22.2*
9.9
1.2
6.2
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Aromuns(Kruševo, Macedonia)*
IE (Italic)
43
27.9
11.6
20.9
*20.9*
11.6
7.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Bulgarians*
IE (Slavic, South)
127
11.0
17.3
27.5
*19.7*
18.1
1.6
—
0.8
—
Karachanak2009[17]

*Greeks (Thrace)*
IE (Greek)
41
12.2
22.0
19.5
*19.5*
19.5
4.9
—
—
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Sephardic Jews*
Afro-Asiatic (Semitic)
78
29.5
3.9
11.5
*19.2*
28.2
—
—
—
—
Nebel2001[9]

*Italians (West Sicily)*
IE (Italic)
125
27.0
2.4
11.0
*19.0*
—
13.0
—
3.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Minorca islanders*
IE (Italic)
37
73.0
2.7
2.7
18.9
—
0.0
—
0.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Aromuns (Štip, Macedonia)*
IE (Italic)
65
23.1
21.5
16.9
18.5
20.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*ethnic Macedonians*
IE (Slavic, South)
211
11.4
14.2
31.3
18.0
16.0
3.8
0.5
1.9
L=0.5
Noveski2010[34]

*Aromuns(Dukasi, Albania)*
IE (Italic)
39
2.6
2.6
17.9
17.9
48.7
10.3
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Serbs*
IE (Slavic, South)
179
4.5
14.5
48
17.3
5.6
2.2
3.3
—
L=0.6
Mirabal,V.2010[39]

*Portuguese (South)*
IE (Italic)
57
56.0
2.0
—
17.0
—
—
—
—
—
Rosser2000[13]

*Romanians(Ploieşti)*
IE (Italic)
36
8.3
5.6
38.9
16.7
19.4
8.3
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Gagauz(Kongaz)*
Altaic (Turkic)
48
10.4
12.5
31.3
16.7
8.3
10.4
4.2
6.3
—
Varzari2006[27]

*Italians (Calabria)*
IE (Italic)

32.4[2]
—
5.4[6]
16.3[3]
24.6[8]
—
—
—
—


*Aromuns(Andon Poci, Albania)*
IE (Italic)
19
36.8
0.0
42.1
15.8
5.3
0.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Italians (Apulia)*
IE (Italic)

—
—
2.6[6]
13.9[8]
31.4[8]
—
—
—
—


*Italians*
IE (Italic)

—
2.7[16]
—
13.0[13]
—
—
—
—
—




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

----------


## Garrick

> It is AMAZING that albanian is such an old language that Greek and Roman historians have never mention or recorded it , they mention and recorded all the Anatolian branch as per above the Albanian group and they mention and recorded what is below the Albanian branch.................it seems very very strange that Albanian which sits in the middle is completely missing.


The first document in the Albanian language (as spoken in the region around Mat) was recorded in 1462 by Paulus Angelius (whose name was later Albanized to Pal Engjëll), the archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Durazzo (modern Durres).

...
New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.



...
My assumption is that Albanian originated somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), J2 and probably R1a created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.

One of possible route moving carriers of mentoined haplogroups is Caucasus, areas around in front of Black Sea region, today's areas of Southern Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. Somewhere in Moldavia (or Southern Ukraine, or Romania) E-V13 carriers mixed with R1b ht35, J2 and R1a carriers, and they received their language. As this is the area Romania, Moldavia, Southern Ukraine, a lot of Latin Romanian and Slavic words entered in that precursor of modern Albanian language.

...
It is interesting, we have no original language of E-V13 carriers. Nowhere in the world. My assumption is that original language of E-V13 carriers was Afro-Asiatic. In today's Albanian there are words that could be Afro-Asiatic but it is very hard to say if they originate from E-V13 carriers or these are later impacts.

----------


## Maleth

> It is interesting, we have no original language of E-V13 carriers. Nowhere in the world. My assumption is that original language of E-V13 carriers was Afro-Asiatic. In today's Albanian there are words that could be Afro-Asiatic but it is very hard to say if they originate from E-V13 carriers or these are later impacts.


It would be interesting to know, however I doubt if any haplogroup (except for the R group which probably always carried and indo European language) carried a particular language. Do we know what the first J1 and J2 carried or even the G's or T's soon after they mutated?....even the I's? The I's split from the J's. (what language did they speak?) or is it a matter that groups split and assimilated into other larger groups and adopted to whatever was the most important language in the region. I think there were some issues in Babel although they could have been mostly a mixture of Afroasiatic dialects rather then total different language trees. Not an easy thing to know. If not mistaken there are some minor common roots between indo European and Afroasiatic, so Albanian will not be the only one, unless you are refering to semetic words which could have entered more recently. Spanish still has a few semetic words in its language and also Sicilian dialect. Maltese is Semetic with a high percentage of loan words from Latin, but its a result of history and not DNA I believe linguists believe that both indo european and afroasiatic languages had a common ancestor some 25,000 years ago.

----------


## Yetos

> It means:-
> 
> Conclusion,
> 
> Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) *haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15*,* J-M410* representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.
> 
> Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)


again



<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

*cause*

<<In the plot of Figure 3C, the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>

PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the oposite, nothing
possibilities

do you understand the combo logic?
it is a possibility by crossing 2 variants,
*NOT a DETERMING METHOD*

----------


## Angela

Gentlemen, if you are using older papers which depended on the "evolutionary" mutation rate, the interpretations aren't necessarily reliable. 

We know a form of E-V13 was present in a Cardial culture site in the western Mediterranean. We know that the current hot spot is in southeastern Europe. It seems pretty clear that there was a Bronze Age/Iron Age spread from that area.

Until we get more ancient samples of E-V13, better resolution of clades, and better dating of those clades, I personally am not very sure _when_ it arrived or with whom. I feel more confident in saying that it expanded in the Bronze Age from somewhere in the Balkans, and into Italy, in particular, in the Bronze Age, and later with Greek colonization in the first millennium BC.

----------


## noUseForAname

> New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.
> 
> 
> 
> I have found your source (although i asked 3 times to send the source and not just the picture)
> You have *misrepresented* *this source* (*see below*) from (Russell D. Gray 2003 year) for the following reasons. I will interpret this study (although more recent studies of 2012 and 2015 show more details)
> 
> 1: Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic 
> 2: Indic/Iranic split 4,600 years ago (own separate branch), *Albanian split 6,000 years ago* (own separate branch). Colours show separate branches (read the whole source in details please) 
> ...



Yet again, are you reading my post at all?....it could be *Pelazgian...*read my post and sources please i dont want to reiterate over and over again..


https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf

----------


## Fluffy

How many times will I have to say it? Haplogroup G is not Semitic.

----------


## Maleth

> How many times will I have to say it? Haplogroup G is not Semitic.



National Geographic places G origins in the Middle east some 30,000 year ago, Cinnioglu et al and Semino et al also suggest a middle eastern origin but do not agree on dates of mutations from Haplogroup F. They suggest a more recent date. 

The word Semetic is a more recent term to describe a family of languages derived from the Afroasiatic ones. Other G subclades like others would have mutated in different regions. G2a is found freaquently in neolotical sites in Europe where dna extraction is possible in cooler climates. G2a is found in low freaquencies in current populations in many parts of Europe, Western Asia, Middle east and North Africa, however G1 is rarely found in Europe, highest found is in Iran.

----------


## Garrick

> Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic.


What I wrote:



> Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.


According New Zealand scientists:
Greek and Armenian have same root.
Albanian and Indic & Iranian language have same root.
Baltic and Slavic languages have same root.
Romance, Germanic and Celtic languages have same root.

Albanian and Indic & Iranic languages split 6000 years ago, according them. But it split from Indic & Iranic languages, not from Armenian, or Slavic, or Celtic.

What I wrote more times, it is possible that R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype) had most impact in creating proto Albanian. Maybe J2 and R1a carriers participated too.

It is possible that proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).

For J2 there are two assumptions:

J2 carriers participated in creating proto Albanian and in the movement from Caucasus, area around Black sea to Moldavia (Southern Ukraine, Romania) orJ2 carriers entered in Albanian substratum late, in area of today’s Romania, Bulgaria or later, in area of today’s Albania.

Dienekes once wrote that J2 carriers entered very late in Albanian substratum in area present-day Albania.

Moldavia/Romania is key area for creating modern Albanian which probably created between 4 and 6 century in this area. Latin loanwords in Albanian show East Balkan Latin phonetics (Romanian), but no West Balkan Latin phonetics (Dalmatian). Also in the area Albanian came in contact with Balto Slavic languages. And Dacian before Romanization probably was Balto Slavic. And Thracian was probably Balto Slavic. Albanian is Satem, as Balto Slavic, Dacian and Thracian languages.

Albanian has strong links with Romanian and Balto Slavic.

But Albanian has relative absence of Greek influence. Influence of Greek came much later, in area present day Albania. Greek loanwords in Albanian should be much higher if Albanians lived with Greeks a much longer time.
...

Pelasgian probably was not IE language.
Illyirian was IE language, but Satem.
Someone can ask, why Albanian linguists try to reduce links Albanian with Romanian and Balto Slavic, and search non-existent links Albanian with Pelasgian and Illyrian.
And, what is interesting, some Albanian linguists say Albanian is close to Illyirian, Albanian is close to Pelasgian, what is nonsense because Illyiran and Pelasgian have no connection.

...
What Albanian can have with Pelasgian if it has no link, linguistic, geographic, by age.

Albanian has no connection with Pelasgian. No.
And Albanian as Satem language has no connection with Illyrian.

We here just wasting time searching the links that don’t exist.
...

Linguists using traditional methods had problem to classify Albanian and they wandered to find appropriate solution. Maybe Armenian was the closest about whom they thought. However New Zealand scientists went innovative way, they using computational method determined that Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from the Armenian.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;458186]What I wrote:




> Albanian and Indic & Iranic languages split 6000 years ago, according them. But it split from Indic & Iranic languages, not from Armenian, or Slavic, or Celtic.


*Incorrect*, According to the *source* Albanian is before Indic/Iranic, _6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are:_ *Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian,* Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....
Therefore Albanian *is split 6,200 years*, on the other side Indic/Iranic 4,600 years ago (*Check the source below with years noted*)
All those main Languages (colorized) are split as a main *separate branches* from indo-European.
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf





> It is possible that proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).


If language came from somewhere that doesn't mean all the people too (it might be by smaller numbers), in this case we have E-V13 over 40% + !2 and !1 to *57.5%, l*ets say most R1b (with 20%) brought PEI, and it cannot be before 6,000 years ago cause thats when they migrated through Yamna. So population might grew for another 20% to 77.5%. And then J2 came later with 18%. Those are current dna numbers at it makes pretty much sense this way.

Therefore arguing that *Albanian originated from Caucus is wrong*, because its language could have originated from there (like all the other PEI languages), and if we are supposing that R1b brought PEI from around today Caucus north Mesopotamia and north east Anatolia.

Thats why i asked you and am *asking you again* how can current Albanians originated (not language) from Caucus _when altogether_ *E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%* 





> Dienekes once wrote that J2 carriers entered very late in Albanian substratum in area present-day Albania.


Yes i think too J2 entered much later and in small numbers, thats why its *18%


*


> Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from the Armenian.


Baluchi?....you seem not to understand the basics (although i explained everything above)

*Albanian is split 6,200* years as a separate and own branch from PEI, on the other side *Indic/Iranic 4,600* years ago (according to study)...just read above my explanation and check the study and years.....hope you understand by now.

https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf

----------


## Fluffy

> National Geographic places G origins in the Middle east some 30,000 year ago, Cinnioglu et al and Semino et al also suggest a middle eastern origin but do not agree on dates of mutations from Haplogroup F. They suggest a more recent date. 
> 
> The word Semetic is a more recent term to describe a family of languages derived from the Afroasiatic ones. Other G subclades like others would have mutated in different regions. G2a is found freaquently in neolotical sites in Europe where dna extraction is possible in cooler climates. G2a is found in low freaquencies in current populations in many parts of Europe, Western Asia, Middle east and North Africa, however G1 is rarely found in Europe, highest found is in Iran.


I was simply implying that Semitic haplogroups are E and J1.

----------


## Ike

> baptise and βαφω βαφη baphe βαπτιζω,
> 
> word in Koine and modern Greek wich means I GIVE NEW STATUS/PAINT/NAME, ...


It was all clear from day one, I don't see why would anyone interpret it different than that.

----------


## Maleth

> I was simply implying that Semitic haplogroups are E and J1.


Semitic means a sub language from the Afro Asiatic group normally including Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Phonetician and so on not a haplogroup description. For example we can say that G haplogroup was mutated in an area were a Semitic language was spoken. (which can never be the case as there is no language that is termed Semetic from the time that haplogroups were mutated and haplogroups mutations and their subclades have mutated in regions were the languages were not known as they were never written down. In the event of hisotry (where we have written documents) haplogroups have been mixing around for thousands of years.

----------


## Angela

With all due respect, gentlemen, while kudos are to be given to many of our members for posting in English when they are not native speakers or don't have long years of practice communicating in it, it is still a fact that it is difficult to grasp the logic of some posts, never mind the subtleties. Then there is the fact that certain "attitudes", shall we say, seem to "color" a lot of these posts and so it is natural to interpret such posts in light of those "attitudes". 

So, enough, yes?

----------


## Maleth

> It was all clear from day one, I don't see why would anyone interpret it different than that.


Indeed as clear as a foggy day  :Good Job:

----------


## Ike

> Indeed as clear as a foggy day


So, you decide to choose your version of the story, and stick to it even though I pointed out to you that it is wrong. Damn good logic.

----------


## Piro Ilir

Probably E- V 13 is somehow related with pelasgians, illyrians, hellenes, etc. Unfortunately this looks to be true.

----------


## Maleth

> Probably E- V 13 is somehow related with pelasgians, illyrians, hellenes, etc. *Unfortunately* this looks to be true.


 :Angry:  What a disaster  :Grin:

----------


## hrvat22

> Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.
> 
> Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.


I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...

If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...

I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...

If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...

----------


## noUseForAname

> I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...
> 
> If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...
> 
> I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...
> 
> If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...


I think you have plenty of information regarding E-V13 in this Thread if you read from the start to the end.

I wouldn't say there is "Albanian types E1b" nor for any other populations (as dna are pretty mixed to all populations). 
E-V13 is 10,000 ybp and its a subcalde of M -78. Therefore there is non European E1b because E1b is very old 40,000 ybp. (everyone is descend from Africa if we go way back)

Also, we couldn't say (if we look at wording) if Croatians have E-V13 their ancestor is Albanian cause at those times of course there was no Albanians nor Greek. However, we can say that current populations of so called Albanians have highest E-V13 in the world (if we are talking about population or ethnicity) and are descent from E-V13. 


Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were inhaplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as beingsimilar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] *The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world*, and it is thought that the majority of *E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic*, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

----------


## Maleth

> I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...
> 
> If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...
> 
> I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...
> 
> If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...



I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.

----------


## hrvat22

> I think you have plenty of information regarding E-V13 in this Thread if you read from the start to the end.
> 
> I wouldn't say there is "Albanian types E1b" nor for any other populations (as dna are pretty mixed to all populations). 
> E-V13 is 10,000 ybp and its a subcalde of M -78. Therefore there is non European E1b because E1b is very old 40,000 ybp. (everyone is descend from Africa if we go way back)
> 
> Also, we couldn't say (if we look at wording) if Croatians have E-V13 their ancestor is Albanian cause at those times of course there was no Albanians nor Greek. However, we can say that current populations of so called Albanians have highest E-V13 in the world (if we are talking about population or ethnicity) and are descent from E-V13. 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
> ...


I ask for specific Albanian E1b....Croatian is *I2a1b2a1a3**A356 not I2a..*

Croatian I2a is 15,000 years old .. what does I2a has with Croats as a nation...

Today Croats are mix R1a Z280 type and I2a1b2a1a3 A356 type...who was I2a not even god knows...

Distant ancestor of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is *I2a1b2a1**CTS5966* that has nothing to do with the Croats as nation or people in Croatia, southern Poland or Germani....maybe these people with *I2a1b2a1* called themselves Chinese..

But direct ancestor Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is *I2a1b2a1a**S17250* or by experimental genealogy tree mutation I-Y354 which has its source in the place and time of existence White Croatia in southern Poland. Only for those people, with this mutation I can say that they Croatian origin and previously they could be called Arabs or Mongols..

----------


## hrvat22

> I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
> 
> These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.


All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

----------


## Maleth

> All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...
> 
> Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..
> 
> 
> You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml


I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.

----------


## hrvat22

> I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.


Far as I know E1b V13 exist about 4,000 years in the Balkans...what does 4000 years BC has do with the Greek, perhaps even I2a was in Greek and that would mean that Croat are descendants of some Greeks because our old ancestors were there before 8000 years..

Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?

It is not quantum physics... if source of V13 is in Greece at the time of Greeks and if Albanians have that tipe V13 then Albanians are Greek origin, they came from Greek.. logic..

V13 comes into Croatia through Vlach who are Albanian origin ... maybe are Greek origin...you prove that there Greeks and that we will respect..

----------


## Maleth

> Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?


You got a non quantum physics answer, and for the third time you ask the same questions. So no offence but I give up, I have better things to do. Enjoy your debate

----------


## Angela

> All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...
> 
> Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..
> 
> 
> You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1b_Y-DNA.shtml


Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious? 

I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:

Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043

I find it astounding that there is this degree of animosity among the various Balkan groups when you're all so similar to one another.

Balkan autosomal variation.jpg

----------


## hrvat22

> Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious? 
> 
> I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group
> 
> Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:
> 
> Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043
> ...



I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...





> Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043



When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..


*Croatian mainland from Barac´ et al. (2003)

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten.../1964.full.pdf

----------


## Angela

> I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.

In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.

----------


## hrvat22

> . Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.



I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..

----------


## Yetos

> I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.
> 
> R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.
> 
> R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..
> 
> About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...
> 
> Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..



I see you continue play your music, in a solo violin,

Well NOOOOOOOOO
R1a in Balkans has nothing to do with ex-I2a2 Din,
*
Reason*
Were R1a exists in High, I2a1b is Low,
were I2ab1 is high R1a is low, 
So stop bullshit,
go little south, R1a in N Greece, were R1a exists are areas Full of Greek Speakers and Gaulish/Aromanian, in the heart of Dorian homeland, areas away from even what Skopje claim as Slav existance
and I2a1b is almost upsent,
Take a look at nearby Bulgaria? where is R1a and where is I2a1b? are they same spot? *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*
take a look at you country, Croatia,
DO DALMATIAN AND ZAGREB HAVE SAME ANALOGIES OF R1a AND I2a1b? *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

*why?*
cause R1a existed in Balkans before the entrance of Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians

so by observing better the spots better, you make wiser conclusions

except if you want to tell me that almighty Slavs who cross all the way from Poland or Ukraine and conguer Balkans, siege Con/polis, defeated Romans, Byzantines Turks Avars etc etc
Had the great ones, Dusan and Cymeon
ended to become Greeks without a fight,  :Useless: 

*even in the chronicles of st Dimitrios, were all slavic tribes who entered Greece are mentioned, with the areas that dwell, we do not have R1a,*

*maybe something is wrong,*
either my observation,
either your conclusion!!!!!!
*
thank you
I love you too
*

----------


## Garrick

> Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.
> 
> In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.


There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.

In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.

But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.

Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.

It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.

R1a is larger in Croatia than in Serbia and hence some Croatian and Serbian nationalists are sad.

Balkan skirmishes, it is very hard for nonBalkans to understand it.

----------


## Garrick

> I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.
> 
> R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.
> 
> R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..
> 
> About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...
> 
> Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..


Someone can find Serbs, Bosniacs etc. in the Balkans with haplogroup I2a1b2a1a3 A356 all he or she wants.

Did Croats gain a certificate of this haplogroup? It is stupid.

*White Croatia is myth*. *Nobody knows if White Croatia existed and where it was*.

(Of course and White Serbia is myth).

In these myths only children can believe.

Someone can read serious scientists, for example: *Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats*, by *Daniel Dzino*:

Danijel Dzino is Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin.

page 112

The story of the *arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia'* is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a *misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity*. The narrative is *no different* from too *obviously fictive story* that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, *we cannot see it is realistic, or even original*, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople.

page 114

Therefore, if the *story of the arrival of the Croats* in the DAI is indeed part of the Croat oral discourse, then we can see it as *politically and ideologically motivated myth* that legitimated the existing situation and the political domination the group over Dalmatia and Pannonia through common ancestors: the imaginary brothers and sisters mentoined in the DAI.

DAI = De Administrando Imperio

----------


## Angela

> There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.
> 
> In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.
> 
> But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.
> 
> Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.
> 
> It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.
> ...


I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it. 

It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.

----------


## Garrick

> I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it. 
> 
> It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.


Serbia and Croatia are pretty countries, with reach cultures and much other things.

And as to the origin, everyone can see that Serbs and Croats have a similar haplogroups, differences are small.

But the conflict between them, most irrational by its nature, is difficult for someone from the outside to understand, which is a shame because cooperation is much better.

There are some historical reasons, when modern nations formed in XIX century, ethnicity in the Balkans is determined by religion, religion brings people together but different religions can divide people.

But there are good role models, the Serbs and Croats can learn how Scandinavian nations know how to cooperate with each other

----------


## Tomenable

^ As for the _"R1a = Slavs; I2a = Non-Slavs"_ notion:

Do you think that the guy with R1a Z280 who died 3100 years ago near Halberstadt was Slavic-speaking?

The TMRCA and modern distribution of I2a-Din looks like a better candidate for a haplogroup that spread with Slavs.

Of course assuming that early Slavs had only one haplogrup, or one subclade of one haplogroup, is ridiculous to start with.

In general the more I research this, the more I think that associating a given hg with one specific ethno-linguistic group is ridiculous. For example there is absolutely no evidence that such R1b-U106 was originally and exclusively Germanic, and that it only spread with Germanics. Its TMRCA is much older than Germanic language. There is also no evidence that Slavs had a monopoly for R1a. It seems that the modern range of distribution of R1a in North-Eastern Europe was already established in the Bronze Age, considering recent ancient DNA finds.

For example Copper-Bronze Age patterns in Y-DNA show that the boundary of R1b (to the west) and R1a (to the east) was in Central Germany. This looks the same way today - if anuthing, nowadays the boundary is more to the east, closer to the Oder River.

But I2a-Din is a fairly young subclade of I2, and it could be spreading with Slavs. Though maybe with someone else too.

----------


## noUseForAname

It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient *indigenous* current populations of *Europe* are:
(Considering *Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY,* because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

_


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

_http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf

----------


## LeBrok

> It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:
> 
> According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient *indigenous* current populations of *Europe* are:
> 
> 1: Sardinian
> 2: Albanian
> 3: Greek
> 4: Spanish
> 5: Bergamo
> ...


Please don't mix the EEF, ANE and WHG, which are part of autosomal (whole genome - Y DNA) composition of Europeans with uni-parental haplotype markers of E-V13, R1b and others, which are indicators of Y chromosome only (2% of whole genome). Technical we can have E-V13 person with 30 percent of EEF. There also might be R1a person in Sardinia with 90% of EEF.
WHG and ANE were admixtures of original European hunter-gatherers, ANE was in Eastern Eruope. EEF, or rather Early Neolithic Farmers admixture, came from Near East about 10 years ago.

----------


## Yetos

Again crossing 2 different variants to extract a conclusion, 
that can work as possibility but not as determing method,

logic is not

Policeman is an instrument (of law)
Guitar is a (musical) instrument
so Policeman is a Guitar,

Crossing 2 different variants, can give only possible, but not certain/determing results,


possibility of might be like this, is not 100% certain, and sometimes can be correct, and some not, cause Policeman is not a Violin,

*it can be used, to create an hypothesis, a possible scenario, which might be TRUE or FALSE* using logic, etc
*but not to determing or certify something, a THEORY, or a LAW*

----------


## Garrick

> It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:
> 
> 
> According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient *indigenous* current populations of *Europe* are:
> (Considering *Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY,* because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)
> 
> 
> 1: Sardinian
> 2: Albanian
> ...


This is misinterpretation. Mixing two different entities. Therefore conclusions are completely wrong.

----------


## noUseForAname

> This is misinterpretation. Mixing two different entities. Therefore conclusions are completely wrong.



So you think you are *smarter than 45 scientist* of this study and coming up with your one worded conclusions as of *completely wrong?*....Give me a break please. 


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including 1 E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are *mostly outside Europe (Current Russia) 
*Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that *Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd* (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists(this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.

----------


## Garrick

> So you think you are *smarter than 45 scientist* of this study and coming up with your one worded conclusions as of *completely wrong?*....Give me a break please. 
> 
> 
> So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including 1 E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)
> 
> And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are *mostly outside Europe (Current Russia) 
> *Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.
> 
> in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that *Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd* (are most indigenous in Europe)?
> ...


Very confused, as said previous interlocutors.

You mixed ANE, WHG and EEF with uni-parental markers E-V13, R1a, I2a what is nonsense.

Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc.

In the base, you can not come to terms with the fact that no found E samples, only one, but in Spain!

But *G2 = 41 & I2 = 18*, you probably sow these data.

----------


## Maleth

This thread is about Palasgians and the possibility if they might had E-V13 Haplogroup. Do we have any dna samples from ancient burial sites in the Balkan area? No. So who can say? theories assumptions hypothesis. I read that the theory of Johann George that Albanians are descendants of Palasgians on the base of language has been generally scrapped by scholars, but had nothing to do with DNA and haplogroups as no science was around at that time. Some people need to get used to the idea that E-V13 has been around BEFORE slavery, gypsies the Ottoman empire and North African Berbers. I augur Courage :)

----------


## noUseForAname

> Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc



Study argues, as i am only *representing* this Study.

Don't you understand EEF means (Early* European* Farmers, early Neolithic) the *orange* color Albanians = *65%*
WHG means (Wester* European* huntergathers) *blue* color Albanians = *17 %*

So only *one question i have*, how this is not European?...... EEF + WHG = Albanians *82%*

ANE means (Yamnaya) green color Albanians = 18%


Of course this means that *Albanians* are descend from south east Europe *since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.* 


*2nd Question* is how could origin be *Anatolia or Caucus* when we are talking (*indigenous* inhabitants) from the early *European* Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?

----------


## Garrick

> Of course this means that *Albanians* are descend from south east Europe *since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago.*


No, it doesn't mean. You didn't understand the text. You can read again posts above.

----------


## noUseForAname

> No, it doesn't mean. You didn't understand the text. You can read again posts above.



If you say so, can you *answer the 2 questions* above then?

----------


## LeBrok

> Study argues, as i am only *representing* this Study.
> 
> Don't you understand EEF means (Early* European* Neolithic) the *orange* color Albanians = *65%*
> WHG means (Wester* European* huntergathers) *blue* color Albanians = *17 %*
> 
> So only *one question i have*, how this is not European?...... EEF + WHG = Albanians *82%*
> 
> ANE means (Yamnaya) green color Albanians = 18%
> 
> ...


All Europeans, except new immigrants, descend from these three genetic groups, only in different proportions.

----------


## Garrick

> If you say so, can you *answer the 2 questions* above then?


You pull one piece of the puzzle and say: Eureka. But things don't operate so. Whole puzzle is important.

*EEF* is complex. This contains *ENF* and *WHG*. (EEF = ENF + WHG). But much more ENF than WHG.

Do you know what is ENF?

*ENF = Early Neolithic Farmers
*
It is component from the *ancient Near East* (including Anatolia, Caucasus, near).

If someone found 82% for Albanians it means:

ENF + WHG = 82%

We have no knowledge how much in ENF is from the Near East/Anatolia/Caucasus/Balkans/South Western Europe etc.

It needs a lot of researches in different epochs to know more.

Do you understand, EEF is hybrid component.

----------


## noUseForAname

> We have no knowledge how much in ENF is from the Near East/Anatolia/Caucasus/Balkans/South Western Europe etc.
> Do you understand, EEF is hybrid component.



Thats why i mentioned Early Neolithic through mid Neolithic (10,000 - 5,000 ybp) because through that period we have early Neolithic Farmers from *south east Europe*.
Now we are not talking here before 10,000 (please pay attention to wording)

Therefore, *Albanians and Greeks* are *descendants* from early European Farmers from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago*.


*Thats why I also placed a 2nd Question like below (scientist didn't go deeper as of where did those inhabitants *Sardinians Albanians Greeks* came from *before* early Neolithic and Mesolithic)
2nd Question is how could origin be Anatolia or Caucus when we are talking (indigenous inhabitants) from the early European Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?....so we are not talking where did those early Neolithic European farmers came from.


Havent read the whole paper but it looks like they have found those populations which have admixure with near east...

Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: *Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers*2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~90% descent from them
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while *Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern* admixture *not mediated via early European farmers*2.

----------


## noUseForAname

> All Europeans, except new immigrants, descend from these three genetic groups, only in different proportions.


Correct, so it looks like the proportion of Sardinians Albanians and Greek have the highest percentage as per descendents from the early Neolithic European Farmers


Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: *Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers*2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~90% *descent* from them
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while *Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern* admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

----------


## Yetos

> Thats why i mentioned Early Neolithic through mid Neolithic (10,000 - 5,000 ybp) because through that period we have early Neolithic Farmers from *south east Europe*.
> Now we are not talking here before 10,000 (please pay attention to wording)
> 
> Therefore, *Albanians and Greeks* are descend from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago*.
> 
> 
> *Thats why I also placed a 2nd Question like below (scientist didn't go deeper as of where did those inhabitants *Sardinians Albanians Greeks* came from *before* early Neolithic and Mesolithic)
> 2nd Question is how could origin be Anatolia or Caucus when we are talking (indigenous inhabitants) from the early European Neolithic (10,000 ybp)?....so we are not talking where did those early Neolithic European farmers came from.
> 
> ...


there many varriants you need to search,
for example PC1 shows much back in time possibilities, like possible palaiolithic

do not mix Shardinians with Balkans,
Shardinians seem so old due to other varriants, not the one that are in Balkans,

in Balkans there is a group, that might (possible) is palaiolithic, but is not connected with Shardinians,

----------


## Angela

It would appear from this incoming paper that what has been apparent for quite a while is true, to wit, that the "Slavs" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are newcomers to the Balkans, arriving in the last 1200 years or so. 

http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417

----------


## Garrick

> _
> So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.
> 
> This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
> And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.
> _





> It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage





> Thats why i mentioned Early Neolithic through mid Neolithic (10,000 - 5,000 ybp) because through that period we have early Neolithic Farmers from *south east Europe*.
> Now we are not talking here before 10,000 (please pay attention to wording)
> 
> Therefore, *Albanians and Greeks* are descend from south east Europe since the early Neolithic Period 10,000 years ago*.
> *


You mix grandmothers and frogs. And, of course, conclusions are wrong. 

*First*
You mix EEF, ANE and WHG with uniparental markers E-V13, I2a, R1a etc.
Are you confused?
Conclusion: Wrong

*Second*
You speak about E1b
You speak about 69 samples but you can see: G2 = 41, I2a = 18.
How many E1b do you see?
E1b = 1
Where?
In Spain!
It didn't find in Balkans.
Confused?
Conclusion: Wrong

*Third*
You don't understand what is EEF.
And scientists can be imprecise, what makes confusion at you.

Because EEF (differently from WHG and ANE) is hybrid component:

EEF = ENF + WHG,
whereby ENF is much larger than WHG in EEF.

ENF: Early Neolithic Farmers

ENF is componet from Near East including Anatolia, Caucasus and near.

ENF is appropriate not EEF (and term EEF is not in use).
Confused?
Conclusion: Wrong

*Fourth*
And where you are confused you try to project on today's nations.
It is nonsense.
For example.
Can you imagine someone who is carrier of haplogroup E-V13, and he lived in Anatolia, or Causacus, or Near East, in XIX century, and with Turkish army he came to the Albania. (I don't generalize, only I give example).
And his descendants had Y-DNA testing.
The results are that they are E-V13 carriers.
Someone sees these results and thinks that they are 10000 years in the Balkans.
Confused?
Conclusion: Wrong

...
Plus: nations are result XIX and XX centuries, not 10000 before, and they are social constructions, not genetical.

...
Your conclusions that Albanians are 10000 years in the Balkans is completely wrong.
It is childish.
...

In the base we are in old debate. This paper (Lazaridis et al) changed nothing, and it was not its purpose.

It will be clearer when much more DNA samples be tested, from different epochs. Also it will be clearer when new discoveries in different science: history, archeology, linguistics, philology, anthropology etc. lead to new knowledge.

----------


## Piro Ilir

Hahaha. Saying, Albanians came with ottomans is so childish. Still people around using this kind of arguments, so boring . One is trying to learn new stuff on forums but people came up over and over with these kind of things. E- V13 and I2 are the indigenous DNA lineages throughout Balkans. Keep calm and sup it. ....

----------


## Angela

The mass of E-V13 in the Balkans has nothing to do with some stray Turk who arrived during the Ottoman occupation. It has an expansion date in The Bronze Age. It has a start burst expansion from right around the area where it is currently the most frequent in the Balkans. It spread from there into Italy, much of it perhaps during the first millennium BC, as we know from Boattini et al's relative dating of the arrival of different haplogroups into Italy. The most parsimonious and scientific explanation is that it has been in that area since _at least_ the Bronze Age. Anything else is just more Balkan obfuscation for ethnic partisanship and an attempt to make the Albanians and anyone else who carries it "foreign" to the area when in fact it is the "Slavs" and whatever yDna they carried who are the most recent arrivals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13

Ed. I should add that neither can one say that all the EEF in modern Balkan peoples has been in situ since the Neolithic. Slavs also carry EEF, along with WHG and ANE, as did the Thracians and other Indo-European peoples. However, ANE was definitely not present in the Neolithic so it is the latest of the major ancient population groups to arrive.

----------


## Garrick

> It would appear from this incoming paper that what has been apparent for quite a while is true, to wit, that the "Slavs" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are newcomers to the Balkans, arriving in the last 1200 years or so. 
> 
> http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417


Good finding, reputation, it would be very interesting, but it depends if authors used old studies or they have new data.

Because some old studies in the Balkans are not quite correct.

Scientists are probably from Estonia, Bosnia, Croatia, etc., but not to comment now, for the first to wait the article.

----------


## Garrick

> Hahaha. Saying, Albanians came with ottomans is so childish. Still people around using this kind of arguments, so boring . One is trying to learn new stuff on forums but people came up over and over with these kind of things. E- V13 and I2 are the indigenous DNA lineages throughout Balkans. Keep calm and sup it. ....


You didn't understand.

You just confirmed what I said.




> I don't generalize, only I give example.


Someone will have wrong conclusion if he or she interpret data mistakenly.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Serbia and Croatia are pretty countries, with reach cultures and much other things.
> 
> And as to the origin, everyone can see that Serbs and Croats have a similar haplogroups, differences are small.
> 
> But the conflict between them, most irrational by its nature, is difficult for someone from the outside to understand, which is a shame because cooperation is much better.
> 
> There are some historical reasons, when modern nations formed in XIX century, ethnicity in the Balkans is determined by religion, religion brings people together but different religions can divide people.
> 
> But there are good role models, the Serbs and Croats can learn how Scandinavian nations know how to cooperate with each other


In Albanian population are three important religions: orthodox, Catholic, Sunni, bektashi. But even a little percentage of Protestants also. Their national hero is called Gjergj Kastrioti (George kastriota). Is the only place in Balkans where you can see a church and a mosque on front to each other.

----------


## Garrick

> In Albanian population are three important religions: orthodox, Catholic, Sunni, bektashi. But even a little percentage of Protestants also. Their national hero is called Gjergj Kastrioti (George kastriota). Is the only place in Balkans where you can see a church and a mosque on front to each other.


Why you comment this, nobody spoke about Albanians.

When formed modern Serbian, Croatian and Bosniac nation, religion played main role, Eastern Orthodoxs and some Protestants become Serbs, Roman Catholics become Croats, and Muslim become Bosniacs.

Josip Broz Tito wanted to create brotherhood and unity between Yugoslav nations, especially between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs.

He could have success, number of people who declared themselves as Yugoslavs grew.

If Yugoslavia is now it would be a million people who would declared as Yugoslavs, and in 2050 probably all Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs would be Yugoslavs.

...
And please, thread is Pelasgian, we can discuss about other things in the other threads.

----------


## Yetos

> In Albanian population are three important religions: orthodox, Catholic, Sunni, bektashi. But even a little percentage of Protestants also. Their national hero is called Gjergj Kastrioti (George kastriota). Is the only place in Balkans where you can see a church and a mosque on front to each other.


Not Again, it is boring

----------


## Garrick

> The mass of E-V13 in the Balkans has nothing to do with some stray Turk who arrived during the Ottoman occupation. It has an expansion date in The Bronze Age. It has a start burst expansion from right around the area where it is currently the most frequent in the Balkans. It spread from there into Italy, much of it perhaps during the first millennium BC, as we know from Boattini et al's relative dating of the arrival of different haplogroups into Italy. The most parsimonious and scientific explanation is that it has been in that area since _at least_ the Bronze Age. Anything else is just more Balkan obfuscation for ethnic partisanship and an attempt to make the Albanians and anyone else who carries it "foreign" to the area when in fact it is the "Slavs" and whatever yDna they carried who are the most recent arrivals.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13
> 
> Ed. I should add that neither can one say that all the EEF in modern Balkan peoples has been in situ since the Neolithic. Slavs also carry EEF, along with WHG and ANE, as did the Thracians and other Indo-European peoples. However, ANE was definitely not present in the Neolithic so it is the latest of the major ancient population groups to arrive.


Of course, Angela, E-V13 carriers arrived earlier, and what is interesting, Ottoman Turks didn't change significantly genetic picture of Balkans.

I gave a example how someone will have wrong conclusion if he or she interpret data mistakenly, wrenches out of context, pulls out a piece of the puzzle.
...

Yes we know when Slavs arrived, but populations of the Balkans have no very significant R1a component. And R1a carriers arrived to the Balkans not only as Slavs, but much before Slavs, there are Y-DNK researches.

If we look R1a we can see in the Balkans (source Eupedia): Albania 9%, Greece 11,5%, Macedonia 13,5%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria 17%, Romania 17,5%, Croatia 24%.

Except for Croatia, differences between countries are not big.

All nations in the Balkans are mixed, indigenous populations with newly arrived populations.

For example, someone can see Serbs and Romanians are similar but Serbs speak Slavic language and Romanians speak Romance language and there is explanation for this.

Dacians (probably Thracian tribe) spoke Dacian language (maybe close to Balto Slavic) which disappeared in 6th century due to Romanization.

On the other side Southern Slavs are Slavic by language and culture, not by genetic.

----------


## Sile

> In Albanian population are three important religions: orthodox, Catholic, Sunni, bektashi. But even a little percentage of Protestants also. Their national hero is called Gjergj Kastrioti (George kastriota). Is the only place in Balkans where you can see a church and a mosque on front to each other.


but they all pray to the same God .................so what's the issue?

----------


## Angela

> Of course, Angela, E-V13 carriers arrived earlier, and what is interesting, Ottoman Turks didn't change significantly genetic picture of Balkans.
> 
> I gave a example how someone will have wrong conclusion if he or she interpret data mistakenly, wrenches out of context, pulls out a piece of the puzzle.
> ...
> 
> Yes we know when Slavs arrived, but populations of the Balkans have no very significant R1a component. And R1a carriers arrived to the Balkans not only as Slavs, but much before Slavs, there are Y-DNK researches.
> 
> If we look R1a we can see in the Balkans (source Eupedia): Albania 9%, Greece 11,5%, Macedonia 13,5%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria 17%, Romania 17,5%, Croatia 24%.
> 
> ...


We're in agreement. That's why I said "whatever dna the Slavs carried"! I was hedging my bets. :)

In terms of the I2a controversy that's one that only ancient dna is going to solve, in my opinion.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Angela;458944]


> The mass of E-V13 in the Balkans has nothing to do with some stray Turk who arrived during the Ottoman occupation.


There was also a high scale media obscurement by some Balkan Countries that Albanians came with Ottomans as they picked these people from Caucus as slaves and brought them in today Albania, apparently there was a place called Caucasian Albania in Caucus and they made people believe that Albanians came from there. Therefore i don't blame the people but the system and education was so strong that apparently majority of them believed in it.

And Caucus Albania has nothing to do with it, also there is a place called Albania in Scotland...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_%28placename%29
Albanian is just an english word, because they are called Skipetar and before that Arbër, nowadays Shqipetar.




> Anything else is just more Balkan obfuscation for ethnic partisanship and an attempt to make the Albanians and anyone else who carries it "foreign" to the area when in fact it is the "Slavs" and whatever yDna they carried who are the most recent arrivals.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#E-V13


Indeed "Slavs" are the most recent rivals to the balkans, I was always so amazed as to how so many balkan countries acquired slavic language fully (and in a very short timeframe) as genetically they have nothing to do with Slavs, say Bulgaria and its inhabitants are so ancient that at that time Slavic people majority (probably R1a) still lived far north of today Russia.

I think all this obscured system came from Russians (as obviously very powerful) and we know historically that they always tried to push as far as south as possible, probably cause they were always dreaming about beaches of Mediterranean LOL.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;458942]




> You speak about E1b
> You speak about 69 samples but you can see: G2 = 41, I2a = 18.
> How many E1b do you see?
> E1b = 1
> Where?
> In Spain!
> It didn't find in Balkans.
> Confused?


So you are saying that all the *42 scientist* of this study are *confused*?.....They are concluding that the most current (*in highest %*) populations that descends directly from *early Neolithic European* inhabitants (early European farmers) and *WHG* are:
_1: Sardinian_
_2: Albanian_
_3: Greek_
_4: Spanish_
_5: Bergamo_
_6: Basque_

*I AM NOT SAYING* this, The study is.

So you are saying that scientist are Confused, OK, its your opinion.





> And scientists can be imprecise, what makes confusion at you.
> Because EEF (differently from WHG and ANE) is hybrid component:
> EEF = ENF + WHG,
> whereby ENF is much larger than WHG in EEF.
> 
> ENF is componet from Near East including Anatolia, Caucasus and near.



OK so now 42 scientist are *imprecise* (according to you)

Study argues that those populations who have *near easter component* are ashkenazi Jews, Maltese, Sicilians etc
There you *go its all here*


*Table* *S9.3:* Populations that improve _resnorm_ for European outlier populations when added to a model of EN/WHG/EHG admixture as a 4th ancestral population. We show the top 20 populations that reduce _resnorm_ the most when added to the mixture model. For Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazi Jews these populations *tend to be from the Middle East and North Africa*

* M**a**ltese** Sicilian Ashkenazi Jew*

4th anc. pop. _resnorm_  4th anc. pop. _resnorm_ 4th anc. pop._resnorm_ 
Moroccan_Jew 0.000006 Turkish_Jew 0.000006 Cypriot 0.000006 
Lebanese 0.000010 Cypriot 0.000006 Iraqi_Jew 0.000018 
Syrian 0.000010 Moroccan_Jew 0.000009 Turkish_Jew 0.000018 
Tunisian_Jew 0.000011 Druze 0.000012 Moroccan_Jew 0.000020 
Saudi 0.000014 Iraqi_Jew 0.000012 Druze 0.000025 
Turkish_Jew 0.000016 Syrian 0.000014 Lebanese 0.000027 
Libyan_Jew 0.000017 Lebanese 0.000016 Syrian 0.000028 
Jordanian 0.000017 Tunisian_Jew 0.000019 Tunisian_Jew 0.000037 
Palestinian 0.000019 Saudi 0.000021 Saudi 0.000039 
Druze 0.000022 Jordanian 0.000022 Iranian_Jew 0.000039 
Yemenite_Jew 0.000022 Libyan_Jew0.000025 Jordanian 0.000039 
BedouinB 0.000022 Palestinian 0.000026 Palestinian 0.000044 
BedouinA 0.000023 BedouinB 0.000027 Libyan_Jew 0.000044 
Tunisian 0.000024 Yemenite_Jew 0.000028 Yemenite_Jew 0.000045 
Mozabite 0.000024 Tunisian 0.000028 BedouinB 0.000045 
Algerian 0.000025 Mozabite 0.000028 BedouinA 0.000046 
Egyptian 0.000025 BedouinA 0.000028 Tunisian 0.000046 
Saharawi 0.000026 Egyptian 0.000028 Egyptian 0.000046 
Yemen 0.000028 Algerian 0.000029 Mozabite 0.000047 
Esan 0.000030 Saharawi 0.000029 Algerian 0.000047 


Check the *Figure S9.27* (pg 124) please, Albanians have:

0% Beduine (*Which is of Near Eastern component*)
*77% EN* (Early Neolithic)
2.2% Nagasan 
3.3% WHG
17.5% Yanmaya

So *Albanians and Greeks* actually don't even have a slightest % from the components of Near eastern farmers.





> Your conclusions that Albanians are 10000 years in the Balkans is completely wrong.
> It is childish.


You are definitely a funny individual, 
Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: *Sardinians* are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ *90% descent* from them. *Albanians are second and Greeks third*
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

Therefore according to this study current *Albanians* are de facto a direct *descent* from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp)


So what is completely wrong your idea or the study that 42 scientist together with myself are confused?

----------


## noUseForAname

> If we look R1a we can see in the Balkans (source Eupedia): Albania 9%, Greece 11,5%, Macedonia 13,5%, Serbia 16%, Bulgaria 17%, Romania 17,5%, Croatia 24%.
> .



Albanian speaking regions have R1a around 5.8% average.

Albanians in Kosovo (2 mil) 4.4%, Albanians in Macedonia (800,000) 1.6%, Albanians in Albania (4 mil) 9.1%

----------


## Angela

I never said nor meant to imply that there was no movement from the north of actual Slavic speaking peoples into the Balkans. The "South Slavs" are a mixture of these peoples and the prior inhabitants. How much is new admixture from the time of the Slavic migrations, I don't know in precise terms, but there is definitely IBD sharing between these populations and populations like Poles and Russians. 

You guys should really be poring over Ralph and Coop as well as the Kovacevik paper, in my opinion, but who asked me, right? :)

Ralph and Coop: http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555



Ralph and Coop # of common ancestors by period in Balkans.jpg

The top row is 0-540 years ago the next row down is 555-1500 years ago, the next is 1515-2535 years ago, and the bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Why you comment this, nobody spoke about Albanians.
> 
> When formed modern Serbian, Croatian and Bosniac nation, religion played main role, Eastern Orthodoxs and some Protestants become Serbs, Roman Catholics become Croats, and Muslim become Bosniacs.
> 
> Josip Broz Tito wanted to create brotherhood and unity between Yugoslav nations, especially between Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs.
> 
> He could have success, number of people who declared themselves as Yugoslavs grew.
> 
> If Yugoslavia is now it would be a million people who would declared as Yugoslavs, and in 2050 probably all Serbs, Croats and Bosniacs would be Yugoslavs.
> ...


First, you were posting about Balkan people and how was formed their nationality, therefore I said that. Second, you diverted the thread firstly.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Not Again, it is boring


Boring is the situation of a country in Balkan, were is not permitted the free choice of religion. In this country is permitted only one religion. Even only one ethnicity. You know for sure which is that country  . 
And to be back on the thread, E- V 13 throughout modern Greece is probably spread with Albanian migration during millennia. (Last Greek president was of Albanian origin) . But of course maybe is not true, this is just my theory

----------


## Piro Ilir

> but they all pray to the same God .................so what's the issue?


Did you read the posts above my post, or you just want to tease me. 
You are misinterpreting my post, maybe.

----------


## noUseForAname

> I never said nor meant to imply that there was no movement from the north of actual Slavic speaking peoples into the Balkans. The "South Slavs" are a mixture of these peoples and the prior inhabitants. How much is new admixture from the time of the Slavic migrations, I don't know in precise terms, but there is definitely IBD sharing between these populations and populations like Poles and Russians. 
> 
> You guys should really be poring over Ralph and Coop as well as the Kovacevik paper, in my opinion, but who asked me, right? :)
> 
> Ralph and Coop: http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555
> 
> 
> 
> Ralph and Coop # of common ancestors by period in Balkans.jpg
> ...



Thanks for posting this Angela, it looks like the study is pretty consistent with the last one as per *Albanians and Greeks* although this one goes more into details.


By far the *highest rates of IBD* within any populations is found between *Albanian speakers*—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (*so high that we left them out of* Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (*from Albania and Kosovo*), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

*The migration period.
*One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The “smooth” estimates of Figure 4 (and more generally Figures 5 and S17) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small.This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]. This period begins with the Huns moving into eastern Europe towards the end of the fourth century, establishing an empire including modern-day Hungary and Romania, and continues in the fifth century as various Germanic groups moved into and ruled much of the western Roman empire. This was followed by the expansion of the Slavic populations into regions of low population density beginning in the sixth century, reaching their maximum by the 10th century [52]. The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis.


For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, *provide generally reliable, consistent patterns*, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3.


period in Balkans.jpg

----------


## Garrick

> Indeed "Slavs" are the most recent rivals to the balkans, I was always so amazed as to how so many balkan countries acquired slavic language fully (and in a very short timeframe) as genetically they have nothing to do with Slavs, say Bulgaria and its inhabitants are so ancient that at that time Slavic people majority (probably R1a) still lived far north of today Russia.
> 
> I think all this obscured system came from Russians (as obviously very powerful) and we know historically that they always tried to push as far as south as possible, probably cause they were always dreaming about beaches of Mediterranean LOL.


Don't project today's political affairs with situation before 2000-5000 years before and beyond.All came from Russians? Where do you see the Russians? Are really Thracians, Getae, Dacians, Scythians, Sarmatians and other R1a carriers (among other haplogroup who were carriers) who arrived to the Balkans Russians? Are really unknown tribes with R1a in old times who arrived to the Balkans Russians? Are really Poles, Ukrainians, Serbs, Slovaks, Bulgarian, Czechs, Croats and other Slavic nations, and nonSlavic Hungarians, Romanians etc with significant percent R1a Russians? And all other people with R1a are Russians? Nine percent people in Albania are Russians, hm? People in Iran and India with R1a are Russians? All people with R1a all over the world, in all epochs are Russians. Those Russians, R1a, they're everywhere.

----------


## Garrick

> First, you were posting about Balkan people and how was formed their nationality, therefore I said that. Second, you diverted the thread firstly.


You are probably from Bosnia because Bosnians were Illyrians.

We can discuss but in other themes, not here.

----------


## Garrick

> Albanian speaking regions have R1a around 5.8% average.
> 
> Albanians in Kosovo (2 mil) 4.4%, Albanians in Macedonia (800,000) 1.6%, Albanians in Albania (4 mil) 9.1%


*Again you make mistake, not 5.8% but 7.8%.*

I used data census, Population in Albania = 2,831,741 (census 2011), of course, there are nonAlbanians, percentage is 12%, (but it doesn't matter, because data are for Albania, and we ignore, and it doesn't change result)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania
Albanian population in Macedonia = 509,083 (census 2002). I can agree that today number of Albanians can be larger but these are official data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania...c_of_Macedonia
Albanian population in Kosovo = 1,616,869 (census 2011)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo

You can see: R1a in Albania is 9% (Eupedia). Number of males in Albania = 1.416.000.
R1a among Albanians in Slavic Macedonia (capital Skopje) is 12.6% (link is beneath). Number of Albanian males = 254,000
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
R1a among Albanians in Kosovo is 4.42% (link is beneath). Number of Albanian males = 808.000.

(Number of males is calculated as mean, it is not precise by census but it doesn't change the result because in one population approximately 1/2 are males).

*Number of R1a of Albanian males = 194,488 (total Albanian males = 2,478,000)*

*Percentage of Albanian R1a, (total Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo) = 7.8%.*

(If we take 9.1% R1a for Albania, result is 7.9%).

----------


## Yetos

> Boring is the situation of a country in Balkan, were is not permitted the free choice of religion. In this country is permitted only one religion. Even only one ethnicity. You know for sure which is that country  . 
> And to be back on the thread, E- V 13 throughout modern Greece is probably spread with Albanian migration during millennia. (Last Greek president was of Albanian origin) . But of course maybe is not true, this is just my theory



oh really? why you don't come too? we may make you president,


 :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing:

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname
You think if you repeat something like a parrot that has more weight (excuse, it is non offensive).

I gave four points, where you made mistakes.
For one, two, and four you don’t try to answer. It is elaborated.

The rest is still point 3, something confused you yet.
But this is last time.

You can see Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html
*
Early European Farmer (EEF)*: apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans.


What is EEF?

http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html

*EEF: mixed European/Near Eastern Neolithic farmers*

(Proportion somewhere in Europe can be 5:1 or similar for Neolithic farmers with Near East with regard to WHG, of course it can be different and it depends of location, but it is not point).

You can see example:
Ethnicity: Assyrian
Rounded to the nearest percent.
My Results

EEF 101%
WHG -7.61%
ANE 6.6%

Assyrians live in Syria and Iraq. He has EEF 101%, if it means that his ancestors lived in Europe 10,000 years, or more?

*Dude, people in Near East, Anatolia and South Caucasus can have bigger EEF than people in Europe, do you understand it.*

...
But to back to fact that EEF is complex (hybrid component)
...
EEF is imprecise

Scientific community use term Early Neolithic Farmers, ENF.EEF is hybrid component, ENF is based component, if we want to do with WHG and ANE and we should use ENF. 

For example, a simple case.

We analyze three categories pupils in primary school: excellent > 4.5, very good between 3.5 and 4.5 and average between 2.5 and 3.5. It is all right.
But can you imagine that someone takes other rule: excellent, very good and good, whereby good are mix between average and very good.

You can see Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project:

However, this is essentially *a stop-gap model* (for model in paper Lazaridis et al), which *will in all likelihood be replaced by a partly revised and more robust model* once someone manages to sequence a genome or two from *the Neolithic Near East.* *That's because EEF is clearly a hybrid component, largely made up of ancient Near Eastern ancestry and something very WHG-like, sometimes in very different proportions depending on the location and archeological context of the EEF genomes being analyzed*.

So what will this new model look like, you might ask? *Probably like this, where EEF is replaced by an Early Neolithic Farmer (ENF) component from the ancient Near East*, or something very similar.

...
It is not critics of paper of Lazaridis et al. Only clarification.

...
And how someone can give wrong conclusions if he or she pulls one piece from the puzzle.

...
We'll probably know of more ancient European meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Eurasia. But projections from today’s political situations and nations are completely wrongly. Only for the nationalistic bickering. But for it you can find someone else, not me.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Don't project today's political affairs with situation before 2000-5000 years before and beyond.All came from Russians? Where do you see the Russians? Are really Thracians, Getae, Dacians, Scythians, Sarmatians and other R1a carriers (among other haplogroup who were carriers) who arrived to the Balkans Russians? Are really unknown tribes with R1a in old times who arrived to the Balkans Russians? Are really Poles, Ukrainians, Serbs, Slovaks, Bulgarian, Czechs, Croats and other Slavic nations, and nonSlavic Hungarians, Romanians etc with significant percent R1a Russians? And all other people with R1a are Russians? Nine percent people in Albania are Russians, hm? People in Iran and India with R1a are Russians? All people with R1a all over the world, in all epochs are Russians. Those Russians, R1a, they're everywhere.


Seems like you are prejudging everything, of course name as Russian came late (probably 1,000), however proto Slavs would definitely have R1a as a majority (and some of other slight mixtures) according to *Maciamo* 

Also according to the research "*Slavs*" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are *newcomers to the Balkans*, arriving in the last 1200 years or so. 

http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417 


This might also be the right time when slavic languages were incorporated to Countries like Serbia Bosnia Croatia (and the language serbo-croatian is around 900 ybp) then slavic Macedonian language (nothing related to Macedonia in Greece) 600 ybp and slavic bulgarian 600 ybp. So these newcomers surely had as a majority R1a and maybe some I2a as Maciamo noted because proto slavs are from today west Russia and Belarus, then pushed south to Poland pretty early like around 4,000 ybp and became a majority there since today.

Thats why i noted before those south countries currently speaking slavic languages have nothing related genetically with proto-slavs, but looks like they incorporated their language fully and their culture at around 1,000 ybp.

----------


## Милан М.

> Seems like you are prejudging everything, of course name as Russian came late (probably 1,000), however proto Slavs would definitely have R1a as a majority (and some of other slight mixtures) according to *Maciamo* 
> 
> Also according to the research "*Slavs*" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are *newcomers to the Balkans*, arriving in the last 1200 years or so. 
> 
> http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417 
> 
> 
> This might also be the right time when slavic languages were incorporated to Countries like Serbia Bosnia Croatia (and the language serbo-croatian is around 900 ybp) then slavic Macedonian language (nothing related to Macedonia in Greece) 600 ybp and slavic bulgarian 600 ybp. So these newcomers surely had as a majority R1a and maybe some I2a as Maciamo noted because proto slavs are from today west Russia and Belarus, then pushed south to Poland pretty early like around 4,000 ybp and became a majority there since today.
> 
> Thats why i noted before those south countries currently speaking slavic languages have nothing related genetically with proto-slavs, but looks like they incorporated their language fully and their culture at around 1,000 ybp.


Not true LOL

----------


## Piro Ilir

> *Again you make mistake, not 5.8% but 7.8%.*
> 
> I used data census, Population in Albania = 2,831,741 (census 2011), of course, there are nonAlbanians, percentage is 12%, (but it doesn't matter, because data are for Albania, and we ignore, and it doesn't change result)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Albania
> Albanian population in Macedonia = 509,083 (census 2002). I can agree that today number of Albanians can be larger but these are official data.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania...c_of_Macedonia
> Albanian population in Kosovo = 1,616,869 (census 2011)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo
> 
> ...


Most of R 1 and I 2 in Albanian population is of illyrian-thracian origin. Illyrian and thracians were IE people, therefore they had R1 and I2 lineages. Slavs have much more R1 and I 2 because they came after the Albanians and Greeks in Balkans. Slavs are more recent IE migration than Albanians , therefore they have more R 1 and I2 . I2 and E-V13 is pre IE paternal lineage throughout Balkans, probably I think.

----------


## Garrick

> Most of R 1 and I 2 in Albanian population is of illyrian-thracian origin. Illyrian and thracians were IE people, therefore they had R1 and I2 lineages. Slavs have much more R1 and I 2 because they came after the Albanians and Greeks in Balkans. Slavs are more recent IE migration than Albanians , therefore they have more R 1 and I2 . I2 and E-V13 is pre IE paternal lineage throughout Balkans, probably I think.


I can't say if Albanians or Slavs came to the Balkans first.

Albanian created between 4 and 6 century in Romania/Moldavia (and maybe part of South Ukraine). Ancestors of Albanians came to todays Albania over Romania/Bulgaria and Slavic Macedonia. Maybe they came before Slavs, maybe no.

But, we know that R1a and I2a existed in the Balkans before Slavs. We know that Serbs and Romanians, and another peoples are similar. We know that Thracians and Dacians were similar, and that Thracians and Dacians are among Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians. We know that Bosnians and part of Serbs (Western Serbs) have Illyirian component (and part of Croats, too). It is possible and Albanians, especially Tosk Albanians, who have fairly significant I2 haplogroup (Geg Albanians no, the have the lowest I2 in the whole Balkans, and beyond).

Slavs were not drastically change the haplogroups in the Balkans, how someone wrongly thinks. They were most numerous in the North in the Panonian Basin (Plain), todays whole Hungary, Baranja, Slavonia, Medjimurje (Croatia), Srem, Banat, Backa (Serbia), and parts of Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.

More detailed studies and in different epochs will give better picture. But, one thing we cannot skip. Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, Serbs, Croats and other Balkan people cannot create history which didn't exist. I can understand that myths can be good for national unity but facts are facts. 

All Balkan nations to a lesser or greater extent have some jealousy towards the Greeks, and some people are paranoid. We must say Greeks have great history, Greece is the cradle of European democracy and civilization. Any attempt of appropriation of Greek history by others is foolishness.

----------


## Милан М.

> Seems like you are prejudging everything, of course name as Russian came late (probably 1,000), however proto Slavs would definitely have R1a as a majority (and some of other slight mixtures) according to *Maciamo* 
> 
> Also according to the research "*Slavs*" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are *newcomers to the Balkans*, arriving in the last 1200 years or so. 
> 
> http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417 
> 
> 
> This might also be the right time when slavic languages were incorporated to Countries like Serbia Bosnia Croatia (and the language serbo-croatian is around 900 ybp) then slavic Macedonian language (nothing related to Macedonia in Greece) 600 ybp and slavic bulgarian 600 ybp. So these newcomers surely had as a majority R1a and maybe some I2a as Maciamo noted because proto slavs are from today west Russia and Belarus, then pushed south to Poland pretty early like around 4,000 ybp and became a majority there since today.
> 
> Thats why i noted before those south countries currently speaking slavic languages have nothing related genetically with proto-slavs, but looks like they incorporated their language fully and their culture at around 1,000 ybp.


Balto-Slavic or Slavic was always spoken in Central,Eastern and South Eastern Europe by majority depends in which form the language was changing in it's history,but it's old and stable in it's zone less or more 3000 years.

----------


## noUseForAname

> I can't say if Albanians or Slavs came to the Balkans first.



You "cant say" are your some kind of *Scientist*?
read below some science please


The most parsimonious and scientific explanation is that Albanians hav been in that area since _at least the Bronze Age. Anything else is just more Balkan obfuscation for ethnic partisanship and an attempt to make the Albanians and anyone else who carries it "foreign" to the area when in fact it is the "Slavs" and whatever yDna they carried who are the most recent arrivals_

By far the *highest rates of IBD* within any populations is found between* Albanian speakers*—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (*so high that we left them out of* Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (*from Albania and Kosovo*), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

*The migration period.
*One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The “smooth” estimates of Figure 4 (and more generally Figures 5 and S17) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small.This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]. This period begins with the Huns moving into eastern Europe towards the end of the fourth century, establishing an empire including modern-day Hungary and Romania, and continues in the fifth century as various Germanic groups moved into and ruled much of the western Roman empire. This was followed by the expansion of the Slavic populations into regions of low population density beginning in the sixth century, reaching their maximum by the 10th century [52]. The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis.


For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3.
*

**
*period in Balkans.jpg


bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian* is the red *colour* and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at *2550-4335* years ago*.
*i suppose proto-slavs (majority R1a as per Maciamo) at that time 4,300 weren't even still in high numbers at today Polad, bur rather located in today west Russia and north Belarus.*

*Therefore as the study argues Slavs are the most *recent arrivals*.*
*
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

----------


## Милан М.

> You "cant say" are your some kind of *Scientist*?
> read below some science please
> 
> 
> The most parsimonious and scientific explanation is that Albanians hav been in that area since _at least the Bronze Age. Anything else is just more Balkan obfuscation for ethnic partisanship and an attempt to make the Albanians and anyone else who carries it "foreign" to the area when in fact it is the "Slavs" and whatever yDna they carried who are the most recent arrivals_
> 
> By far the *highest rates of IBD* within any populations is found between* Albanian speakers*—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (*so high that we left them out of* Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.
> 
> The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (*from Albania and Kosovo*), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.
> ...


Proto-Slavic-* unnatested, reconstructed proto-language of all the Slavic languages* and there is Slavic speaking group.

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname
Do not make quick conclusions on the basis of one or two articles.

You made four mistaken conclusions based on article of Lazaridis et al.

You said that based on this articles Albanians are 10,000 years in the Balkans.

No. Wrong.

You can read #253 (and earlier) and #276.

And today in the another thread:




> We should have in mind EEF is hybrid component:
> ...


You should be thanking me what I pointed out some your misconceptions. I put some free time and effort to explain.
...

What is point. This matter is very complex and multidisciplinary, it requires a lot of knowledge from different disciplines, and it goes beyond the knowledge of one person. Many many studies in many different sciences are required to come up with some proper conclusions. One half-cocked conclusion today can be wrong tomorrow because new studies arrive.

----------


## noUseForAname

> You can see Eurogenes Genetic Ancestry Project:
> http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html
> *
> Early European Farmer (EEF)*: apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans.
> 
> 
> What is EEF?
> http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html
> 
> *EEF: mixed European/Near Eastern Neolithic farmers*



Study gives percentages of those *populations* who have near eastern component


*Sardinian Albanian and Greek* has *nothing to do with* (at least not before 10,000 ybp) with near eastern component, or they might have the very very lowest % then the rest of populations from the source.
You are either not understanding English (not reading my sources) or you just don't want to be reasonable. Those that they *have near eastern* component (highest %) are *Maltese, Sicilian, ashkenazi jews* (read below)

If so than why would the scientists put *Sardinian (90%)* Albanian and Greek to the top for *Early European Farmers* (10,000 ybp)?
Its all about amount of percentages as for sure *everyone would have slight* *mixtures*.


Check the *Figure S9.27* (pg 124) please,* Albanians* have*:

*0% Beduine (*Which is of Near Eastern component*)

*77% EN (Early Neolithic European)*
2.2% Nagasan 
3.3% WHG
17.5% Yanmaya


Fig. S9.24 shows that *when WHG admixture is added to EN*, residuals for most European populations are reduced, *consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe*. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: *Sardinians* are the population that is *closest to early European farmers* 2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ *90% descent* from them. *Albanians are second and Greeks third*
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

Table S9.3: Populations that improve _resnorm for European outlier populations when added to a model of EN/WHG/EHG admixture as a 4th ancestral population. We show the top 20 populations that reduce resnorm the most when added to the mixture model. For Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazi Jews these populations tend to be from the Middle East and North Africa_*

Maltese Sicilian Ashkenazi Jew

*_4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop.resnorm 
Moroccan_Jew 0.000006 Turkish_Jew 0.000006 Cypriot 0.000006 
Lebanese 0.000010 Cypriot 0.000006 Iraqi_Jew 0.000018 
Syrian 0.000010 Moroccan_Jew 0.000009 Turkish_Jew 0.000018 
Tunisian_Jew 0.000011 Druze 0.000012 Moroccan_Jew 0.000020 
Saudi 0.000014 Iraqi_Jew 0.000012 Druze 0.000025 
Turkish_Jew 0.000016 Syrian 0.000014 Lebanese 0.000027 
Libyan_Jew 0.000017 Lebanese 0.000016 Syrian 0.000028 
Jordanian 0.000017 Tunisian_Jew 0.000019 Tunisian_Jew 0.000037 
Palestinian 0.000019 Saudi 0.000021 Saudi 0.000039 
Druze 0.000022 Jordanian 0.000022 Iranian_Jew 0.000039 
Yemenite_Jew 0.000022 Libyan_Jew0.000025 Jordanian 0.000039 
BedouinB 0.000022 Palestinian 0.000026 Palestinian 0.000044 
BedouinA 0.000023 BedouinB 0.000027 Libyan_Jew 0.000044 
Tunisian 0.000024 Yemenite_Jew 0.000028 Yemenite_Jew 0.000045 
Mozabite 0.000024 Tunisian 0.000028 BedouinB 0.000045 
Algerian 0.000025 Mozabite 0.000028 BedouinA 0.000046 
Egyptian 0.000025 BedouinA 0.000028 Tunisian 0.000046 
Saharawi 0.000026 Egyptian 0.000028 Egyptian 0.000046 
Yemen 0.000028 Algerian 0.000029 Mozabite 0.000047 
Esan 0.000030 Saharawi 0.000029 Algerian 0.000047_

----------


## Yetos

@ 
and what about the 14 % Altaic in Albanians?

Devils advocate

----------


## noUseForAname

> You said that based on this articles Albanians are 10,000 years in the Balkans.
> No. Wrong.



*I said* (as study argues) *current* populations of Sardinian, Albanian and Greek are de facto a *direct descent* (with *highest % then other populations*) from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp). (read above for more explanation)

*I never said* Albanian or greek that they were in Balkans at the year 10,000 ybp with the same names (nationalities) as of now (of course not), however current populations of Sardinian, Albanian and Greek are de facto a direct descent (with highest % then other populations) from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp).

I already gave you a lots of facts from above, if you don't want to believe for whatever reason then thats your opinion and i respect that, its just you cannot say "wrong immediately" to a study or to me because i was just representing this study and i wasn't adding anything from my self as per the conclusions above.
And because you are not a scientist if you want to back something then *you are welcome* to give other studies which criticize the later.

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname
What do you don't understand.

See these data for two men (I wrote without decimals):

1.
EEF : 84
WHG: 8
ANE: 8

2.
EEF: 91
WHG: 2
ANE: 7

What do you conclude?

...
Model of Lazaridis et al is imperfect, it is only first iteration in the way to better, robust models. I wrote why. Don't give wrong conclusions.
...

EEF = ENF + WHG. It will be sequenced ENF, but it will pass the time.

*ENF is Eearly Neolithic Farmers, Near Eastern/European Neolithic farmers*
 (Nobody spoke about bedouins. Near East in this sense is area which mostly covers Anatolia/Turkey, Southern Caucasus, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq).

We have no sequence a genome or two from the Neolithic Near East. We will know much more when we sequenced genomes across from Western Asia and North Africa and wider. 

Newer, better, robusted models will give us much more accurate and better picture. And we can use them.

----------


## Angela

> Study gives percentages of those *populations* who have near eastern component
> 
> 
> *Sardinian Albanian and Greek* has *nothing to do with* (at least not before 10,000 ybp) with near eastern component, or they might have the very very lowest % then the rest of populations from the source.
> You are either not understanding English (not reading my sources) or you just don't want to be reasonable. Those that they *have near eastern* component (highest %) are *Maltese, Sicilian, ashkenazi jews* (read below)
> 
> If so than why would the scientists put *Sardinian (90%)* Albanian and Greek to the top for *Early European Farmers* (10,000 ybp)?
> Its all about amount of percentages as for sure *everyone would have slight* *mixtures*.
> 
> ...


What do the resnorm statistics of the Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim have to do with the Albanians?

Also, how could the results shown in S9.27 (in the Supplementary Info of Haak et al, not Lazaridis et al, btw) possibly lead you to believe that they are consistent with most Europeans *not* being descendents of EN farmers? ALL Europeans have some descent from EEF.

Plus, where do you think the majority of the ancestry of the EEF came from? At least 80% of it came from the Near East. Most likely they embarked for Europe from the area where southeast Anatolia meets the Levant, and are probably in part descended from the Natufians. Do you think this ancestry is different in kind if it came 7,000 years ago with the Neolithic versus 4,000 years ago with the Bronze Age? When it came in the Bronze Age to southern Europe it just was mixed with ANE instead of with some WHG. Maybe a little south central Asian was mixed in too, but the Early Near Eastern farmer portion was the same.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Angela;459115]


> What do the resnorm statistics of the Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazim have to do with the Albanians?


That was just a reply to *Garrick* and to show which European populations have more components % of near eastern. 
Because he was the one saying that *Albanians came from Caucus area* not even *1,000 years ago*, and apparently said that he didn't know if "slavs " or Albanians came as the recent newcomers....where the studies show the different.

*Garrick
*_Proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).
__He even said that 
_*Garrick*
_Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from t_he Armenian.*

*And this was actually from the study *HE HIMSELF* *sourced* (completely misrepresented)
This is the video do_ne by business insider from the same source (Albanian came from Baluchi?)_*

*<b style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);"><span style="font-family: Tahoma;"><em><font color="#333333">

*

*Russell D. Gray & Quentin D. Atkinson, University of Auckland, New Zealand*
*https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf


Then he comes into *Albanian and Berber language* similarity 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...tic-similarity


All this makes me think one of those individuals whom for whatever reason want to show *Albanian as foreign as possible*. No matter what (facts or no facts) and by consistently attacking and even supposing that Albanians came with Ottomans as they picked them as slaves from Caucus. Believe it or not some Countries still get educated by this in their history books.




I noted that of course all the european populations have a mixture with near eastern component and EN farmers, however *Sardinians Albanians and Greeks* have the lowest % (for near eastern component) as their descend *more* from Early European farmers, and if you read the older posts we were talking only for *Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic* because before 10,000 ycp Early European farmers either came from Africa or near east (so probably from near eastern farmers)




> Also, how could the results shown in S9.27 (in the Supplementary Info of Haak et al, not Lazaridis et al, btw) possibly lead you to believe that they are consistent with most Europeans *not* being descendents of EN farmers? ALL Europeans have some descent from EEF.


Of course all the Europeans have some descend from EEF, i was only noting that (as per study) *Sardinians Albanians and Greeks* have the *highest %* as their descend more from *Early European farmers*, and if you read the older posts we were talking only for *Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic* because before 10,000 ycp *Early European farmers either came from Africa or near east* (probably from near eastern farmers).



Recent discoveries in Europe, such as Cyprus and mainland Greece has shown that farming started early in *south east Europe*. In Franchthi Cavein Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested *before c.** 11,000 bc*, although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bc appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19][20]in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc

Anthropological and archaeological evidence from sites across Southwest Asia and North Africa indicate use of wild grain (e.g., from the c. *20,000**b c* site of Ohalo II in Israel, many Natufian sites in the Levant and from sites along the Nile in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops of agriculture appear: first emmer and einkorn wheat, then hulled barley, peas,lentils,bitter vetch, chick peas and flax. These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) sites in the Levant
*By 7000 bc*, sowing and harvesting reached *Mesopotamia*.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture


So that might mean that by 10,000 ybp there was already farming in the far south east Balkans that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.

It looks like the peak was south east Africa (could be M-78 Peak) end the far south west Levant (Ohalo) which at the same time might have spread in one direction at *Crete and then Peloponnese* 10,000 BC (reaching south East Europe without going across through Levant and Anatolia) and the other group spread through Levant Syria and reached *Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC*.

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname
Now you change the subject, again. In the Balkans were hunter gatherers 20,000 years ago and more, and what. 

Model of Lazaridis et al is imperfect and it will be replaced with new, more robust model, with more data. Especially when it will be sequenced a genome from the Neolithic Near East, of course and other genomes across Asia and Africa.

But what you tell now has nothing to do with Albanians. Now it seems that once again interfering admixtures with parental markers.

See, we don't know from the model of Lazaridis et al when different populations arrived in the Balkans, nor the model deals wit it. Generally it is stupid to use today's national terms for old times' sake, but it is a different story, and there's no chance to convince you not to associate.

Therefore, if we see what Lazaridis et al find for todays Albanians, it can be much later then you think. I gave admixtures two men what you can conclude, what do you think.

----------


## Милан М.

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459123]


> That was just a reply to *Garrick* and to show which European populations have more components % of near eastern. 
> Because he was the one saying that *Albanians came from Caucus area* not even *1,000 years ago*, and apparently said that he didn't know if "slavs " or Albanians came as the recent newcomers....where the studies show the different.
> 
> *Garrick
> *_Proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).
> __He even said that 
> _*Garrick*
> _Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from t_he Armenian.*
> 
> ...


The map you posted Anatolian hypothesis of IE clearly show that Balto-Slavic or conservative Slavic if you like was one of the first in Europe,according to this map you should admit that Thracians were nothing else but conservative speakers of Slavic language like Mario Alinei explain,why you push South Slavic(Serbo-Croat,Bulgarian) to be 900 years old when maps you post push it back to B.C era and more older then any of the modern Western and Eastern Slavic,how can this migration be from the North then?are you debunk yourself lol,so when i said that the people that conquered the Balkans from the Romans were for the most part one and the same with the one within the empire at least in genetics,there was no major genetic change,neither was migratio gentium en masse but a military conquest.

----------


## Garrick

> *
> *<b style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);"><span style="font-family: Tahoma;"><em><font color="#333333">
> 
> *
> *


*You're big Balto-Slavic promoter here.

You can see, first Balto-Slavic is created, 0:23.

And Albanian originated from Balto-Slavic, 0:29.*

Yes, there is a theory that Albanian is branch of Balto-Slavic, of course Albanian is Satem as Balto-Slavic and they have a lot of similarity.

But I think facts that Albanian is close to Balto-Slavic languages (Dacian, Thracian, modern Slavic and Baltic languages etc.) is because modern Albanian created in Romania probably between 4 and 6 century. A lot of Balto-Slavic/Dacian/Thracian words and of course Eastern Latin (Romanian) entered in Albanian in that time. 

Russel Gray and Quentin Atkinson still be right that Albanian have same root as Iranian (and Indic) languages. My assumption is that proto Albanian is created somewhere between speakers of Armenian and speakers of North Iranian languages. Probably in Caucasus or near (maybe Eastern Anatolia or Northern Iran).

----------


## Piro Ilir

> I can't say if Albanians or Slavs came to the Balkans first.
> 
> Albanian created between 4 and 6 century in Romania/Moldavia (and maybe part of South Ukraine). Ancestors of Albanians came to todays Albania over Romania/Bulgaria and Slavic Macedonia. Maybe they came before Slavs, maybe no.
> 
> But, we know that R1a and I2a existed in the Balkans before Slavs. We know that Serbs and Romanians, and another peoples are similar. We know that Thracians and Dacians were similar, and that Thracians and Dacians are among Romanians, Serbs, Bulgarians. We know that Bosnians and part of Serbs (Western Serbs) have Illyirian component (and part of Croats, too). It is possible and Albanians, especially Tosk Albanians, who have fairly significant I2 haplogroup (Geg Albanians no, the have the lowest I2 in the whole Balkans, and beyond).
> 
> Slavs were not drastically change the haplogroups in the Balkans, how someone wrongly thinks. They were most numerous in the North in the Panonian Basin (Plain), todays whole Hungary, Baranja, Slavonia, Medjimurje (Croatia), Srem, Banat, Backa (Serbia), and parts of Slovakia, Slovenia and Romania.
> 
> More detailed studies and in different epochs will give better picture. But, one thing we cannot skip. Albanians, Slavic Macedonians, Serbs, Croats and other Balkan people cannot create history which didn't exist. I can understand that myths can be good for national unity but facts are facts. 
> ...


Nobody mentioned Greeks and their civilization, which in my opinion has nothing to do with modern Greece. You are the first claiming that Albanians came from south Ukraine or North east Romania. This is something really silly and you know it. At a post above you said Albanians came from Anatolia and at another post you said they came from Caucasus . You need to make clear your mind sir. There is not even a single source mentioning an Albanian migration from Ukraine to illyria nor to epirus (except any silly nationalistic theory) . Genetically and linguistically is proven that Albanians are indigenous in West Balkan, at least BC era. If we study the genetic and the tongues of Balkans populations we will have a clear picture of all the spread of populations throughout Balkans.

----------


## Garrick

> Nobody mentioned Greeks and their civilization, which in my opinion has nothing to do with modern Greece.


This is your opinion.




> You are the first claiming that Albanians came from south Ukraine or North east Romania. This is something really silly and you know it.


No, it is not silly. On the contrary. One of theory is that Albanian created in 4-6 century in Romania. You probably know for Baltic theory and that Albanian is the branch of Balto Slavic. In the video which your college gave you can see that Albanian originate from Balto-Slavic. Albanian has similarities as Balto-Slavic languages, do you know it. And you probably know that Latin words in Albanian came from Romanian (Eastern variant) not from Dalamatian (Western variant). Etc.

But your college and I have other discussion about New Zealand scientists, who give the model in which Albanian has root as Iranian and Indic languages. And according it Proto Albanian could be in the Caucasus or near. According them Greek and Armenian have same root, and Albanian and Iranian and Indic languages same root. Albanian has some familiarity with Armenian, but if their model is appropriate, more with Iranian/Indic. These scientists are very cited, their model is new, and different from traditional model. Yes, they claim about Anatolian hypothesis, that Proto Indo European originated in Anatolia (contrary from Kurgan hypothesis).

If they are right it is possible that movement of Proto Albanian speakers people were: Caucasus-area near Black Sea-South Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. There are people in this forum who pointed this. We will see new scientific findings. For now, for me it can be interesting new paper forthcoming:

*BALKAN GENETIC SIGNALS IN THE ARMENIAN PATERNAL GENE POOL
*
http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=365

From Abstract:

*On the whole, our results only partly support the version of Balkan origin of the Armenians, and in contrast to it, mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe.
*

----------


## noUseForAname

> The map you posted Anatolian hypothesis of IE clearly show that Balto-Slavic or conservative Slavic if you like was one of the first in Europe,according to this map you should admit that Thracians were nothing else but conservative speakers of Slavic language like Mario Alinei explain,why you push South Slavic(Serbo-Croat,Bulgarian) to be 900 years old when maps you post push it back to B.C era and more older then any of the modern Western and Eastern Slavic,how can this migration be from the North then?are you debunk yourself lol,so when i said that the people that conquered the Balkans from the Romans were for the most part one and the same with the one within the empire at least in genetics,there was no major genetic change,neither was migratio gentium en masse but a military conquest.


That was just a reply to Garick because he mentioned that Albanian language is a root or derived from Baluchi from the same study he sourced *BY HIMSELF.
*

Bouckaert et al argues that Serbo Croatian is 900 ybp derived from old church Slavonic around 1,200 ybp and old church Slavonic deriving from Slovenian 1,400 ybp then we have Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp.

This is consistent with the most recent complex dna study that one group (possibility) of PEI spread from Anatolia through the steppe. However we dont know exactly if Ancient Greek language and Albanian came from steppe or (because it was very close to Anatolia) pushed straight to current Greece and Albania (south east Europe).
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf

Bouckaert et al argues that Greek and Albanian split 6,000 ybp from Anatolian and balto slavic split 5,700 ybp. 
We can see that *Slavic languages started at 3,100 ybp* as the oldest one being Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp. Consistent with my *suppositions* that *Slavic languages came from the steppe (north)*. 
Therefore we have Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp following Slovenian 1,400 ybp, then 1,200 ybp and old church Slavonic and following Serbo Croatian is 900 ybp


On the other side Bouckaert et al argues that Ancient Greek and Albanian started at around 5,100 ybp as a separate branches (also separate from balto-slavic and Slavic Languages). So my guess is it couldn't had came from the steppe that early since it started around 5,100 ybp but rather coming straight from Anatolia and not all way around north of black sea and threw the steppe.


https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/

----------


## noUseForAname

Originally Posted by *Garrick* 



> Yes, there is a theory that Albanian is branch of Balto-Slavic, of course Albanian is Satem as Balto-Slavic and they have a lot of similarity.



Albanian is a *separate branch of Balto-slavic*, that is known to everyone and the majority of studies say so (especially the recent ones) (see below)

Bouckaert et al argues that *Greek and Albanian split 6,000* ybp from *Anatolian* and *Balto slavic split 5,700 ybp*. 

We can see that *Slavic* languages* started at 3,100 ybp* as the oldest one being Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp. Consistent with my suppositions that *Slavic languages came from the steppe (north)*. 
Therefore we have Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp following Slovenian 1,400 ybp, then 1,200 ybp and old church Slavonic and following Serbo Croatian is 900 ybp*

O*n the other side Bouckaert et al argues that Ancient Greek and *Albanian* *started* at around *5,100 ybp* as a separate branches (also separate from balto-slavic and Slavic Languages). So my guess is it couldn't had came from the steppe that early since it started around 5,100 ybp but rather coming straight from Anatolia and not all way around north of black sea and threw the steppe.
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/


This is *consistent* with the most recent complex dna study that (possibility) of *PEI spread from Anatolia through the steppe*. However we dont know exactly if Ancient Greek language and Albanian came from steppe or (because it was very close to Anatolia) pushed straight to far south east Europe.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf






> But I think facts that Albanian is close to Balto-Slavic languages (Dacian, Thracian, modern Slavic and Baltic languages etc.) is because modern Albanian created in Romania probably between 4 and 6 century. A lot of Balto-Slavic/Dacian/Thracian words and of course Eastern Latin (Romanian) entered in Albanian in that time.



Oh now your saying *modern Albanian* (because you were saying that *proto* *Albanian originated from Caucus Area not even 1,000* ybp). You think that proto Albanians came with Ottoman turks who picked them as slaves from Caucus area?

Ancient Greek and Albanian started at around 5,100 ybp (south east Europe) as a separate branches (also separate from balto-slavic and Slavic Languages) thousands of years ago before Dscians and Thracian names came in, therefore they are out of the Context here.






> Russel Gray and Quentin Atkinson still be right that Albanian have same root as Iranian (and Indic) languages. My assumption is that proto Albanian is created somewhere between speakers of Armenian and speakers of North Iranian languages. Probably in Caucasus or near (maybe Eastern Anatolia or Northern Iran).


Seems like (from the same source you placed) you haven't even read the source when you said that Albanian language derives from Baluchi 2.500 ybp when *Albanian is 6,500* ybp. *Even before indic/Iranian* which is 4,600 ybp. 

according to the study these are all* separate branches* (*separating straight from Anatolia*) _(from older to recent) are:_ *Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian,* Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....


Therefore don't give *false interpretations* of the same study you are sourcing please.


https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf

----------


## Милан М.

> That was just a reply to Garick because he mentioned that Albanian language is a root or derived from Baluchi from the same study he sourced *BY HIMSELF.
> *
> 
> Bouckaert et al argues that Serbo Croatian is 900 ybp derived from old church Slavonic around 1,200 ybp and old church Slavonic deriving from Slovenian 1,400 ybp then we have Lithuanian (north steppe region) 1,900 ybp.
> 
> This is consistent with the most recent complex dna study that one group (possibility) of PEI spread from Anatolia through the steppe. However we dont know exactly if Ancient Greek language and Albanian came from steppe or (because it was very close to Anatolia) pushed straight to current Greece and Albania (south east Europe).
> http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf
> 
> Bouckaert et al argues that Greek and Albanian split 6,000 ybp from Anatolian and balto slavic split 5,700 ybp. 
> ...


Lithuanian is not a Slavic language,so attested Serbian predate the language itself nice theory of yours,Old Church Slavonic is made of Slavic Macedonian dialect not Slovene,but i think all languages in Europe evolve from Albanian,it is at least 10000 years old,i hope you are happy now.

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## Garrick

> You think that proto Albanians came with Ottoman turks who picked them as slaves from Caucus area?


I don't think so. I never said this.

----------


## Garrick

> according to the study these are all* separate branches* (*separating straight from Anatolia*) _(from older to recent) are:_ *Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian,* Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....
> 
> 
> Therefore don't give *false interpretations* of the same study you are sourcing please.


What false interpretations?

Before this study I thought that Proto Albanian was the closest to Armenian. 

When New Zealand scientists gave their model I corrected this opinion.

Now I think that speakers of Proto Albanian were somewhere between speakers of Armenian and speakers of North Iranian languages, in the Caucasus or near (East Anatolia, Northern Iran). It is possible that Proto Albanian is closer to forerunners of North Iranian languages than Armenian.

I mentioned Baluchi and Singhalese only in the context of their model and the picture they gave:



Everyone can see according their model: Greek and Armenian have same root; Albanian and Iranian and Indic language have same root (of course distance of separation is long); Baltic and Slavic languages have same root; Celtic, Germanic, Italic languages have same root. And of course all IE languages have same root. And they all separate branches.

Yes, they are proponents of Anatolian hypothesis, Proto Indo European originated in Neolithic Anatolia (different than Kurgan hypothesis). If their hypothesis has real base I think that J2a carriers played much more role in creating IE languages, not only R (R1a and R1b) carriers.

I don't know when speakers of Proto Albanian moved from Caucasus or near to Southern Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. It could be a long process. Maybe trace is different than I (and some members in the forum) mention.

Dacian theories tell us that modern Albanian created in Romania in new era, started from 2nd century. According them Albanians come very late in the areas today's Albania, till 10 century, one of possible interpretation is in the picture:




Dacian and Baltic Slavic theories are much more based on facts in comparing with mythical fictional theories about Illyrian or Pelasgian or Ancient Egyptian etc. origin of Albanian.

...
Dacian and Baltic Slavic theories however, don't say us how Albanian speakers came to Carpathian mountains and Romania and where is created Proto Albanian.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> This is your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not silly. On the contrary. One of theory is that Albanian created in 4-6 century in Romania. You probably know for Baltic theory and that Albanian is the branch of Balto Slavic. In the video which your college gave you can see that Albanian originate from Balto-Slavic. Albanian has similarities as Balto-Slavic languages, do you know it. And you probably know that Latin words in Albanian came from Romanian (Eastern variant) not from Dalamatian (Western variant). Etc.
> 
> But your college and I have other discussion about New Zealand scientists, who give the model in which Albanian has root as Iranian and Indic languages. And according it Proto Albanian could be in the Caucasus or near. According them Greek and Armenian have same root, and Albanian and Iranian and Indic languages same root. Albanian has some familiarity with Armenian, but if their model is appropriate, more with Iranian/Indic. These scientists are very cited, their model is new, and different from traditional model. Yes, they claim about Anatolian hypothesis, that Proto Indo European originated in Anatolia (contrary from Kurgan hypothesis).
> 
> If they are right it is possible that movement of Proto Albanian speakers people were: Caucasus-area near Black Sea-South Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. There are people in this forum who pointed this. We will see new scientific findings. For now, for me it can be interesting new paper forthcoming:
> ...


Even the school kids know that Albanian is a separate branch of IE. Serious scholars arguing that proto Albanians before coming in west Balkans were neighbors with proto Baltic people. Albanian have some connections with Baltic languages, but it's a completely distinct branch. Albanian language have archaic doric loans, north west greek loans, archaic Latin loans, east romance loans, west romance loans. So you are again wrong sir. And all this is going to be boring, because I really think you know all those facts.  . Albanian have both West and east vulgar Latin word loans, but the loans of east made up the majority of vulgar Latin. If Albanians came so late in Balkans how they have all those archaic words in their language, and the Slavs don't. And even the vlachs don't have archaic Latin words. Albanians have ancient doric loans by the colonies on the coast (Corcyra). They are indigenous there, and you know it, so stop with your claims, because none is believing you . Probably they are more indigenous than Greeks if you see carefully their DNA, unfortunately .

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## Piro Ilir

In the end if you guys see carefully the Greek myth about Illyrians , you'll find some real stuff there. King Cadmus came in west Balkans with his son and his people from middle east or Egypt. This happened before the IE people came to Balkans. They were mostly E V13 . They spoke not a IE language. Those people absorb with them some I 2 DNA lineages (hunter gatherers ) and became mostly EV13 plus some few I2 .When the IE people came in Balkans they begin to assimilate those descendents of king Cadmus, and brought with them the first R1 and more I 2 DNA throughout Balkans. When the Romans invaded Balkans there were no more remains of descendents of Illyrians of Cadmus, but there were some new Illyrians (EV13, I2 R 1 )who all we know . Ancient sources said that illyrian proper dicty were settled exactly in the areas where we found today mostly the E- V 13. Illyrian is a Albanian word with roots from pre- IE Balkans people maybe pelasgian or Minoan. But in the end Albanians are mostly IE people , not afro Asiatic people, this is clear.

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## noUseForAname

> Lithuanian is not a Slavic language,so attested Serbian predate the language itself nice theory of yours,Old Church Slavonic is made of Slavic Macedonian dialect not Slovene,but i think all languages in Europe evolve from Albanian,it is at least 10000 years old,i hope you are happy now.



Its *not my theory* as i am not saying this, scientific study argues about that. I never say something from the thin air. I place a source, i represent it and i might give some suppositions based on the source and some possibilities. The post above is straight (*copy paste* ) from the study. 

So don't get mad with me, if you want to criticize than criticize the study or find some relevant scientific study who might criticize the later.

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## noUseForAname

> I don't think so. I never said this.



Thanks for clarification, however you said this....
*Garrick
*_Proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today)._

According to you then what period they came to south east Europe from Caucus?

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## Maleth

> In the end if you guys see carefully the Greek myth about Illyrians , you'll find some real stuff there. King Cadmus came in west Balkans with his son and his people from middle east or Egypt.


Cadmus was originally a Phoenician prince not from Egypt. Pierre Zaloua (From National Geographic) had found from a Phoenician King in Tyre that haplogroup was J2 and thats were J2 was mistakenly called the Phoenician Marker. (We know its not just a Phoenician marker as its found all over south west Europe and no reference for it these days, However J2 all over the balkans andmostly south Italy, like in Lebanon and Israel has very high percentages. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

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## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]*Garrick*[/B];459226]




> Everyone can see according their model: Greek and Armenian have same root; Albanian and Iranian and Indic language have same root (of course distance of separation is long); Baltic and Slavic languages have same root; Celtic, Germanic, Italic languages have same root. And of course all IE languages have same root. And they all separate branches.



Sorry but wrong again. *Have a closer look*: Albanian is 6,500 ybp separate from *Anatolian* and Indo-Iropean (not indic/iranic) is separate from Anatolian at 6,500, *THEN* we have indic/iranic separate from its root Indo-Iranian at *4,600 ybp*

If you check the colour indo-iranian at 6,500 with black colour and going to iranian (light violet colour) at 4,600 and indic with (violet colour) at 4,600 seperate from indo-iranian.
*Albanian RED colour* separate from Anatolian at 6,500 ybp

Albanian is not even separate from indo-iranian as both branches separated *from Anatolian* at the same time 6,500 ybp by one (separate branch) going straight west and the other going straight east. Even if Albanian would come from indo-iranian (not indic/iranic) then how could it reach the same time *6,500* when it would had to cross from indo-iranian location to Anatolia then to south east Europe?





> Yes, they are proponents of Anatolian hypothesis, Proto Indo European originated in Neolithic Anatolia (different than Kurgan hypothesis). If their hypothesis has real base I think that J2a carriers played much more role in creating IE languages, not only R (R1a and R1b) carriers.



If Ancient Greek and Albanian language came straight from Anatolia at around 6,000, then this might mean that *ALL* PEI was not spread through Yamna (mostly R1b) (through the steppe at around 4,000 ybp) which i previously believed, however Hittites with mostly R1b might have spread around before 5,000. (i have read somewhere in the threads that most possible major group for Hittites might have been R1b). Its hard to tell and more research is needed in this case. And i dont believe at J2a because according to everyone at eupedia argues that J2a might have come much later to South east Europe then V-13, R1b, G2a, I2a, we are talking about around 6,000 ybp.





> Dacian theories tell us that modern Albanian created in Romania in new era, started from 2nd century. According them Albanians come very late in the areas today's Albania, till 10 century, one of possible interpretation is in the picture:



Dacia is around *100 BC*, i don't know how Dacians can write theories (Albanian came very late, 2nd Century) when Albanians are at least (at south east Europe) *4,335 ybp* and with language even more. 
We are talking about *thousands of years apart*.
The Carpathian Mountains were located in the middle of Dacia. It thus corresponds to the present day countries of Romania and Moldova

We shoudn't even talk about these as they look like a cherry picked fairytales in comparing with *recent genetic and linguistic science*.
We should thank the technology be transparent and be happy about that (no matter nationalities). 

By far the *highest rates of IBD* within any populations is found between* Albanian speakers*—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (*so high that we left them out of* Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the *rates of IBD drop* to levels typical *for other populations in the eastern grouping*.
So it has a *HUGE* difference (genetically) with other surrounding eastern grouping.

*Albanian is the red colour
*period in Balkans.jpg

bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian* is the red *colour* and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at *2550-4335 years ago*
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555





> Dacian and Baltic Slavic theories are much more based on facts in comparing with mythical fictional theories about Illyrian or Pelasgian or Ancient Egyptian etc. origin of Albanian.



Well, if you want to *give more weight* to "mythical fictional theories" than scientific theories based on genetics and other linguistic science than *its up to you*

----------


## Милан М.

> Its *not my theory* as i am not saying this, scientific study argues about that. I never say something from the thin air. I place a source, i represent it and i might give some suppositions based on the source and some possibilities. The post above is straight (*copy paste* ) from the study. 
> 
> So don't get mad with me, if you want to criticize than criticize the study or find some relevant scientific study who might criticize the later.


I does not get mad but on the contrary,I didn't saw that in those links.What is scientific study?it is arguing about what that Lithuanian is Slavic language?well primary school kids know that Lithuanian is Baltic and that Slovene language has nothing to do with OCS,but a dialect spoken in now Greek Macedonia is from where Old Church Slavonic derrive,nowadays i can barely understand it,but once my ancestors spoke it, and it was pretty understandable from there to Kievian Rus and Bohemia.The vicinity of the Slavic language is Danube basin at least for the prominent Slavists i follow like Horace Lunt,Johanna Nichols,Oleg Trubachev etc not steppe or the Arctic  :Good Job:

----------


## Garrick

> Albanian is not even separate from indo-iranian as both branches separated *from Anatolian* at the same time 6,500 ybp by one (separate branch) going straight west and the other going straight east. Even if Albanian would come from indo-iranian (not indic/iranic) then how could it reach the same time *6,500* when it would had to cross from indo-iranian location to Anatolia then to south east Europe?


You don't read me carefully. Before paper of New Zealand scientists I thought that Albanian is closest to Armenian. And there are classifications where Armenian and Albanian are same branch.

There are researchers who speak about similarities between Armenian and Albanian, for example:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...anian-Armenian 

Carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype) are probably creators of Armenian and Albanian, somewhere in the Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia.

But paper of New Zealand scientists is important because it makes link Albanian with Iranic and Indic languages. Of course, someone cannot agree with it. Their method is new and maybe they should research more.

If we see Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iran, there is geographic approximity between Armenian and North Iranian speakers. And logic tell us that speakers of forerunners of North Iranian could influence on speakers of Proto Albanian. It means that speakers of proto Albanians were between speakers of Proto Armenian and speakers of Proto Iranian. With this knowledge and haplogroups from that time we could quite precise locate where speakers of Proto Albanian lived.




> Even the school kids know that Albanian is a separate branch of IE. Serious scholars arguing that proto Albanians before coming in west Balkans were neighbors with proto Baltic people. Albanian have some connections with Baltic languages, but it's a completely distinct branch. Albanian language have archaic doric loans, north west greek loans, archaic Latin loans, east romance loans, west romance loans. So you are again wrong sir. And all this is going to be boring, because I really think you know all those facts. Albanian have both West and east vulgar Latin word loans, but the loans of east made up the majority of vulgar Latin. If Albanians came so late in Balkans how they have all those archaic words in their language, and the Slavs don't. And even the vlachs don't have archaic Latin words.





> Dacia is around *100 BC*, i don't know how Dacians can write theories (Albanian came very late, 2nd Century) when Albanians are at least (at south east Europe) *4,335 ybp* and with language even more. 
> We are talking about *thousands of years apart*.
> 
> Well, if you want to *give more weight* to "mythical fictional theories" than scientific theories based on genetics and other linguistic science than *its up to you*


Serious scientists in the world argue Dacian (and Balto Slavic) theory. Modern Albanian probably started to create somwhere in Romania, in time when Dacian language was still alive.

Albanians from political reasons prefer to speak of Illyrian or Pelasgian orygin, but without facts. Moreover evidence completely refute these claims.

For example according to Georgiev, Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics.Combined with the fact that the Romanian language contains several hundred words similar only to Albanian, Georgiev proposes the Albanian language formed between the 4th and 6th centuries in or near modern-day Romania, which was Dacian territory. According to Georgiev if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, the number of Greek loanwords in the Albanian language should be higher.

Dan Ungureanu give common lexic in Romanian and Albanian, everyone can see same or similar *Albanian and Romanian words which origin is: Dacian, Slavic and Latin* (Latin words in Albanian mostly came from Romanian, only later when Albanians moved to today's Albania, probably 5-10 century, some Latin words came from Italian, etc.).

*Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian Substrate and Loanwords*

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords





> They are indigenous there, and you know it, so stop with your claims, because none is believing you. Probably they are more indigenous than Greeks if you see carefully their DNA, unfortunately .


I "admire " some Albanians and Slavic Macedonians as they prefer to usurp Greek history. Reasons are political (plus jelaousy), and unfortunately there is no connection with science. Greeks have great history, *Greece is the cradle of European democracy and civilization*. Attempts in the 21 century to change antique and construct false are silliness.

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## Piro Ilir

> I does not get mad but on the contrary,I didn't saw that in those links.What is scientific study?it is arguing about what that Lithuanian is Slavic language?well primary school kids know that Lithuanian is Baltic and that Slovene language has nothing to do with OCS,but a dialect spoken in now Greek Macedonia is from where Old Church Slavonic derrive,nowadays i can barely understand it,but once my ancestors spoke it, and it was pretty understandable from there to Kievian Rus and Bohemia.The vicinity of the Slavic language is Danube basin at least for the prominent Slavists i follow like Horace Lunt,Johanna Nichols,Oleg Trubachev etc not steppe or the Arctic


 Baltic languages compose together with Slavic languages a distinct branch of IE. Baltic people are different by other Slavs. They are not Slavs. Maybe before 5000 years proto Albanians and proto Baltics were neighbors. They both have some same roots, maybe .

----------


## Милан М.

> Baltic languages compose together with Slavic languages a distinct branch of IE. Baltic people are different by other Slavs. They are not Slavs. Maybe before 5000 years proto Albanians and proto Baltics were neighbors. They both have some same roots, maybe .


Who said that Balts are Slavs? that was your friend lol

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## Piro Ilir

> I does not get mad but on the contrary,I didn't saw that in those links.What is scientific study?it is arguing about what that Lithuanian is Slavic language?well primary school kids know that Lithuanian is Baltic and that Slovene language has nothing to do with OCS,but a dialect spoken in now Greek Macedonia is from where Old Church Slavonic derrive,nowadays i can barely understand it,but once my ancestors spoke it, and it was pretty understandable from there to Kievian Rus and Bohemia.The vicinity of the Slavic language is Danube basin at least for the prominent Slavists i follow like Horace Lunt,Johanna Nichols,Oleg Trubachev etc not steppe or the Arctic


Proto Slavs were settled much more away from Danube basin. The Danube was the borderline of Roman empire, and Romans never mentioned any Slavic tribe there at least since the time when the empire begin to rotting. I think Slav migration was the last IE migration throughout Europe.  . I don't see nothing bad nor offensive that they came from the steppes. We all came from there and spread throughout Europe. In the end we are all IE, and is not important who came the first. Oh, I forgot that we spread throughout the world after having destroyed the Europe. We like to fight   .

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## Piro Ilir

> Cadmus was originally a Phoenician prince not from Egypt. Pierre Zaloua (From National Geographic) had found from a Phoenician King in Tyre that haplogroup was J2 and thats were J2 was mistakenly called the Phoenician Marker. (We know its not just a Phoenician marker as its found all over south west Europe and no reference for it these days, However J2 all over the balkans andmostly south Italy, like in Lebanon and Israel has very high percentages. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus


Yes, but Phoenicians were middle eastern people also. I didn't said that all the Illyrian myth is true, but something about that might be true, maybe. To understand the truth, we need to use everything we got, like genetics, historic writing records, archaeology, and even the myths .

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## Милан М.

> Proto Slavs were settled much more away from Danube basin. The Danube was the borderline of Roman empire, and Romans never mentioned any Slavic tribe there at least since the time when the empire begin to rotting. I think Slav migration was the last IE migration throughout Europe.  . I don't see nothing bad nor offensive that they came from the steppes. We all came from there and spread throughout Europe. In the end we are all IE, and is not important who came the first. Oh, I forgot that we spread throughout the world after having destroyed the Europe. We like to fight   .


How do you know which tribe in Roman historiography was Slavic,Germanic or anything else speaking unless their language is attested,like Roman historians were asking them who which language spoke when writing for them.Proto Slavs are imagination in this sence yours,Proto Slavic language exist Proto Slavs as unique "single tribe" does not.Nothing offensive there but the one that conquered the Balkans were in the Danube basin and in Pannonia not in the steppe,what is your argument that they came from somewhere else?they couldn't appear in 3 places at once,the steppe were Iranic and then Turkic after Kievan Rus conquered that become Slavic speaking,plus isolated Slavic groups could live well within the empire much prior,nothing weird in that,when 'Slavs" and other ethnic groups started to write we heard about their ethnic designations but not by outsiders,Serbs constantly were called Tribalians(Thracian tribe) by their South neighbors Greeks,but not the Serbs themselves except for the Tribalian coat of arms they used some times,you need arguments perhaps to prove that Slavic wasn't spoken there where exactly was the power base of those groups conquering the Balkans.

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## Piro Ilir

> How do you know which tribe in Roman historiography was Slavic,Germanic or anything else speaking unless their language is attested,like Roman historians were asking them who which language spoke when writing for them.Proto Slavs are imagination in this sence yours,Proto Slavic language exist Proto Slavs as unique "single tribe" does not.Nothing offensive there but the one that conquered the Balkans were in the Danube basin and in Pannonia not in the steppe,what is your argument that they came from somewhere else?they couldn't appear in 3 places at once,the steppe were Iranic and then Turkic after Kievan Rus conquered that become Slavic speaking,plus isolated Slavic groups could live well within the empire much prior,nothing weird in that,when 'Slavs" and other ethnic groups started to write we heard about their ethnic designations but not by outsiders,Serbs constantly were called Tribalians(Thracian tribe) by their South neighbors Greeks,but not the Serbs themselves except for the Tribalian coat of arms they used some times,you need arguments perhaps to prove that Slavic wasn't spoken there where exactly was the power base of those groups conquering the Balkans.


I am just referring to the sources of Roman empire. There were avars some dacians and other tribes, but not Slavs on the Danube since the late Roman period. There are no sources for them till the last period

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## Garrick

> Oh, I forgot that we spread throughout the world after having destroyed the Europe. We like to fight.


In fight you can lose everything.
...

But I don't know who is "we".

Cooperation is better.

Someone can read in the forum:

Arvistro

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...304#post459304

I like the idea of Yamna culture being a cocktail of many things (farmers, hunters, Caucasians, EHG, and so on). Message it gives is great and modern - Diversity is Power! 

*Exchange of cultures, ideas and lifestyles that produced a new global impulse*.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> You don't read me carefully. Before paper of New Zealand scientists I thought that Albanian is closest to Armenian. And there are classifications where Armenian and Albanian are same branch.
> 
> There are researchers who speak about similarities between Armenian and Albanian, for example:
> 
> http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...anian-Armenian 
> 
> Carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype) are probably creators of Armenian and Albanian, somewhere in the Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia.
> 
> But paper of New Zealand scientists is important because it makes link Albanian with Iranic and Indic languages. Of course, someone cannot agree with it. Their method is new and maybe they should research more.
> ...


I read about georgeiev theory, and you should mentioned earlier that. Georgeiev is the only one claiming such thing form Albanians, no one else. Illyrian theory is not something created by Albanians, but by the majority or scholars, and you know it. Georgeiev theory is not supported by other scholars. In Albanian language are loan words by archaic Latin and doric Greek, but those are not in vlachs and Romanian languages. You don't have even a single silly source mentioning any Albanian migration from Danube. Albanians always been there and this is accepted by all the scholars. Albanian language have two dialects ,tosk south and gheg north. Those two dialects are quite different, and the split had begun at least since Roman invasion. The border line between the two, is the ancient highway Via Egnatia . Even today, who speak gheg is from North via Egnatia, and who speak tosk is from south via Egnatia. Thanks the Greek language we have the evidence that Albanians were settled North east ancient Greece since classical historic era.  . Albanian language has some connection even with Celtic language, so I am not surprised that they have some connection with iranic or Armenian language. There are some possibilities that Armenians migrate from Balkans before settling south Caucasus. Even the phrygians firstly dwell in Balkans before going at west Anatolia. For 50 years thracia was subjugated by Persian empire around fifth century bce. 
And yes the ancient Hellenic civilization was really something very impressive, but I don't see any connection with the inhabitants of modern Greece.  . And nobody said something against helenes on the posts above.

----------


## Милан М.

> I read about georgeiev theory, and you should mentioned earlier that. Georgeiev is the only one claiming such thing form Albanians, no one else. Illyrian theory is not something created by Albanians, but by the majority or scholars, and you know it. Georgeiev theory is not supported by other scholars. In Albanian language are loan words by archaic Latin and doric Greek, but those are not in vlachs and Romanian languages. You don't have even a single silly source mentioning any Albanian migration from Danube. Albanians always been there and this is accepted by all the scholars. Albanian language have two dialects ,tosk south and gheg north. Those two dialects are quite different, and the split had begun at least since Roman invasion. The border line between the two, is the ancient highway Via Egnatia . Even today, who speak gheg is from North via Egnatia, and who speak tosk is from south via Egnatia. Thanks the Greek language we have the evidence that Albanians were settled North east ancient Greece since classical historic era.  . Albanian language has some connection even with Celtic language, so I am not surprised that they have some connection with iranic or Armenian language. There are some possibilities that Armenians migrate from Balkans before settling south Caucasus. Even the phrygians firstly dwell in Balkans before going at west Anatolia. For 50 years thracia was subjugated by Persian empire around fifth century bce. 
> And yes the ancient Hellenic civilization was really something very impressive, but I don't see any connection with the inhabitants of modern Greece.  . And nobody said something against helenes on the posts above.


Interesting article for the Balkans and the "Illyrian thing" 
*Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words*

Viennese researchers upset traditionally minded Albanians by pouring cold water on the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria.

Besar Likmeta
[COLOR=#666666 !important]Tirana and Vienna[/COLOR]

Joachim Matzinger and Stefan Schumacher |_ Photo by : Besar Likmeta_


Deep in the bowels of Vienna University, two Austrian academics are poring over the ancient texts of a far-away people in the Balkans. 

Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.

“The way that languages change can be traced,” Schumacher declares, with certainty. 

Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists. 

The root of the controversy is their hypothesis that Albanian does not originate from the language of the Ancient Illyrians, the people or peoples who inhabited the Balkans in the Greek and Roman era. 

According to Classical writers, the Illyrians were a collection of tribes who lived in much of today’s Western Balkans, roughly corresponding to part of former Yugoslavia and modern Albania. 

Although Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common, judging from the handful of Illyrian words that archeologists have retrieved, the Albanian link has long been cherished by Albanian nationalists. 

The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.  

It is popular because it suggests that Albanians descend from an ancient people who populated the Balkans long before the Slavs and whose territory was unfairly stolen by these later incomers.

“You’ll find the doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians everywhere,” Matzinger muses, “from popular to scientific literature and schoolbooks. “There is no discussion about this, it’s a fact. They say, ‘We are Illyrians’ and that’s that,” he adds.

*What’s in a name?* 

The names of many Albanians bear witness to the historic drive to prove the Illyrian link.
 

 Pandeli Pani | Photo by : Idem Institute


Not Pandeli Pani. When he was born in Tirana in 1966, midway through the long dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, his father told the local registry office that he wished to name him after his grandfather. 

Pani recalls his father’s hard-fought battle not to have to give his son an Illyrian name. 

Staff at the civil registry office apparently said that naming the future linguistics professor after his grandfather was not a good idea, as he was dead. They suggested an approved Illyrian name instead. 

“But the Illyrians aren’t alive either,” Pani recalls his father as quipping.

Many members of Pani’s generation born in the Sixties did not have such stubborn fathers. Their parents subscribed to the government policy of naming children after names drawn from ancient tombs. 

In the eyes of the world, they aimed to cement the linkage between modern Albania and its supposedly ancient past. 

“While I was named after my grandfather, keeping up a family tradition, other parents gave their children Illyrian names that I doubt they knew the meaning of,” says Pani, who today teaches at Jena university in Germany. 

“But I doubt many parents today would want to name their children ‘Bledar’ or ‘Agron,’ when the first means ‘dead’ and the second ‘arcadian,” he adds. 

Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.

“The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said. 

But while the Illyrian theory no longer commands universal support, it hasn’t lost all its supporters in Albanian academia. 

Take Mimoza Kore, linguistics professor at the University of Tirana. 




Mimoza Kore | Photo by : Photo by : Albaneological Institute


Speaking during a conference in November organised by the Hanns Seidel Foundation, where Pani presented Schumacher’s and Matzinger’s findings, she defended the linkage of Albanian and Illyrian, saying it was not based only on linguistic theory.

“Scholars base this hypothesis also on archeology,” Kore said. Renowned scholars who did not “subscribe blindly to the ideology of the [Hoxha] regime” still supported the idea, she insisted.

One of the key problems in working out the linguistic descendants of the Illyrians is a chronic shortage of sources. 

The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.

Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common. 

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans. 

The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light. 

“One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added. 

*Bastard tongues:*

Linguists say different languages spoken in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite a lack of evidence of a common origin. 

This phenomenon of linguistic “areas” is also evident in the Balkans, where such different languages as Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and Romanian all share words and structures.
*First written words in Albanian*

The first written record of Albanian is a baptismal formula written in 1462 by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli. The first book in Albanian, a missal, was written in 1554 by Gjon Buzuku, a Catholic priest from the Shkodra region.
Pjeter Budi, Archbishop of Sape, also translated and adapted several Italian texts to Albanian in the same period.
Schumacher and Matzinger are concentrating their scholarship mostly on the work of Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop of Prizren, who wrote half-a-century later. He is considered the most interesting Albanian early writer and the “father” of Albanian prose.
Bogdani’s most famous work, The Story of Adam and Eve, his account of the first part of the Bible, is written in both Albanian and Italian. Matzinger says that when Bogdani published the book he was under some pressure from the Inquisition. As the Inquisition did not know Albanian, and were not sure what he wrote, they forced him to make an Italian translation, which is published in the left column of the book.
“That is most useful because it means that no sentence in the book [in Albanian] is incomprehensible,” Matzinger says.
Although numerous texts by Bogdani, Budi and some others survive, the variety of authors, mainly Catholic clerics, is small. “It would be interesting if we had a bigger variety of authors, though we’re grateful enough for what we do have,” Schumacher says.


According to Schumacher, from the Middle Ages onwards, languages throughout the Balkans tended to become more similar to one another, suggesting a high level of linguistic “exchange” between populations in the region. 

“A lot of people used a number of languages every day, and this is one way in which languages influence each other,” Schumacher says. “The difficult thing is that this runs counter to nationalist theories,” he adds. 

Drawing on genetic terminology, linguists term this process of language exchange language “bastardization”. 

Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the phenomenon of language bastardization has taken a new twist, moving in the opposite direction, as each newly formed state acts to shore up its own unique linguistic identity. 

Before the common state collapsed, four of the six constituent republics, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro, shared a common language known as Serbo-Croat.

But since declaring independence in 1991, Croatia has consciously highlighted the distinct character of its language, now called “Croatian”. 

Bosnian Muslims have made similar efforts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, promoting official use of a codified “Bosniak” language.

Montenegro, which remained in a loose state union with Serbia until 2006, then appeared content not to have its own separate language. But after independence, a new constitution adopted on October 2007 named the official language as Montenegrin. 

Similar calls to foster a separate national language have been heard in Kosovo, drawing on the northern Albanian “Gegh” dialect, though none of these initiatives has received official encouragement. 

*Out of language, an identity:* 

The study of Balkan languages came of age in the later 19th century as the Ottoman Empire began disintegrating and as intellectuals tasked with creating new nations out of its rubble turned to language to help forge national identities.


Cover of Adam and Eve, from Pjeter Bogdani | Photo by : Stefan Schumacher


According Schumacher, each country in the Balkans forged its own national myth, just as Germany or the US had done earlier, with a view to creating foundations for a shared identity. 

“In the late 19th century, language was the only element that everyone could identify with,” says Schumacher. 

He described the use of linguistics in national mythology as understandable, considering the context and the time when these countries gained independence.

“It’s not easy to create an identity for Albanians if you just say that they descend from mountains tribes about whom the historians of antiquity wrote nothing,” he notes. 

The friction between ideological myth and reality, when it comes to forging national identity, and laying claim to territory, is not unique to Albania. 

Schumacher points out that Romanian history books teach that Romanians descend from the Roman legionnaires who guarded the Roman province of Dacia – a questionable theory to which few non-Romanians lend much credence, but which shores up Romania’s claim to Transylvania, a land to which Hungarians historically also lay claim. 

“The Romanian language developed somewhere south of the Danube, but Romanians don’t want to admit that because the Hungarians can claim that they have been there before,” notes Schumacher.

“None of them is older or younger,” says Schumacher. “Languages are like a bacterium that splits up in two and than splits up in two again and when you have 32 bacteria in the end, they are all the same,” he added. 

The two Austrian linguists say that within European academia, Albanian is one of the most neglected languages, which provides an opportunity to conduct pioneering work. 

Although the extant texts have been known for a long time, “they hardly ever been looked at properly”, Schumacher says. “They were mostly read by scholars of Albanian in order to find, whatever they wanted to find,” he adds.

----------


## Maleth

> Interesting article for the Balkans and the "Illyrian thing" 
> *Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words*


Interesting opinions. Would you have a link to the source please?

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;459292]




> There are researchers who speak about similarities between Armenian and Albanian, for example:
> http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...anian-Armenian



You have given me *some script* from a *student* who said "Although not an expert in Historical and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics myself.

We are dealing here mostly with scientific studies and comparative Linguistics, good try finding a student who found some words (as all the languages in some form or the other borrow words from another) 





> But paper of New Zealand scientists is important because it makes link Albanian with Iranic and Indic languages. Of course, someone cannot agree with it. Their method is new and maybe they should research more.


I dont know how many times i have to explain it to you that there is *no link from indic/iranic to Albanian* (as per study). Again you just reiterate with NO (own opinion) at least *try to answer* the *study arguing below*.

Albanian is 6,500 ybp *separate from Anatolian* and Indo-Iropean (not indic/iranic) is separate from Anatolian at 6,500, *THEN* we have indic/iranic separate from its root Indo-Iranian at 4,600 ybp

If you check the colour indo-iranian at 6,500 with black colour and going to iranian (light violet colour) at 4,600 and indic with (violet colour) at 4,600 separate from indo-iranian.
*Albanian RED* colour separate from Anatolian at 6,500 ybp

Albanian is not even separate from indo-iranian as both branches separated from Anatolian at the same time 6,500 ybp by one (separate branch) going straight west and the other going straight east. Even if Albanian would come from indo-iranian (not indic/iranic) then how could it reach the same time 6,500 when it would had to cross from indo-iranian location to Anatolia then to south east Europe?

Hope you understand by now....





> Serious scientists in the world argue Dacian (and Balto Slavic) theory. Modern Albanian probably started to create somwhere in Romania, in time when Dacian language was still alive.



You mean serious scientist who give "*mythical fictional theories*" and those _Dacians (who are 100BC coming from north Carpathian) who write_ _fairytales__ (Albanian came very late, 2nd Century) when Albanians are at least (at south east Europe)_ *4,335 ybp (genetically) and with language even more (Linguistic studies).* 
*
We are talking** about* *thousands of years apart.
*
At least you should try to find some study who criticizes (one below) 
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555





> For example according to Georgiev, Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics.Combined with the fact that the Romanian language contains several hundred words similar only to Albanian, Georgiev proposes the Albanian language formed between the 4th and 6th centuries in or near modern-day Romania, which was Dacian territory. According to Georgiev if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, the number of Greek loanwords in the Albanian language should be higher.



As Милан М mentions *modern Greek* is derived from* old church slavonic.*

Albanian has *early Greek loans* but of course *not modern Greek* loans because they are derived from old chuch Slavonic _around 1,000 ybp and Early Greek is around 3,500 ybp_
Early Greek loans[edit]
There are some *30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian*.[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.[11]

bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic _mélitta_ "bee" (vs. Ionic _mélissa_).[80]drapër; "sickle" < (NW) _drápanon_[81]kumbull; "plum" < _kokkúmelon_[81]lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < _láchanon_ "green; vegetable"[82]lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < _lápathon_[83]lyej; "to smear, oil" < *_liwenj_ < *_elaiwā_ < Gk _elai(w)ṓn_ "oil"[_clarification needed_]mokër; "millstone" < (NW) _māchaná_ "device, instrument"[79]mollë; "apple" < _mēlon_ "fruit"[84]pjepër; "melon" < _pépōn_presh; "leek" < _práson_[82]shpellë; "cave" < _spḗlaion_trumzë; "thyme" < (NW) _thýmbrā, thrýmbrē_[81]


Georgiev's Daco-Thracian theory picked up some momentum when linguists thought Illyrian was a centum language because of its affinity with Venetic. Then it turned out Venetic is very closely related to Latin. So far, we do have some Thracian inscriptions and one Dacian inscription. Nothing shows any relation to Albanian, especially Thracian.We also have no records of any significant migrations into Albania. The Byzantines recorded all Slavic, Gothic, and Avar incursions into the Balkans, so again it would be far fetched to consider Daco-Thracian as a main theory.

In addition Georgiev Draco-thracian theory *is rejected by majority of scholars*, and even so more with the new genetical studies which i have sourced and they attest to Albanian at the same current locations of Albanian speaking regions of *at least 4,335 ybp.*





> Dan Ungureanu give common lexic in Romanian and Albanian, everyone can see same or similar *Albanian and Romanian words which origin is: Dacian, Slavic and Latin* (Latin words in Albanian mostly came from Romanian, only later when Albanians moved to today's Albania, probably 5-10 century, some Latin words came from Italian, etc.).
> *Common Lexic in Romanian and Albanian Substrate and Loanwords*
> http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords



As per above and majority of recent studies (genetically and linguistically) *conclude* that *ancient Greek* and* Albanian* is at least* 5,000 ybp,* and that there was no link of migrations of Albanians from the north especially Romania (there is no link at all genetically too).
Then this looks actually quite the opposite then (and logical) that Romanian language actually borrowed some Albanian as it is 5,000 ybp. Now am not saying that Albanians migrated to Romania but rather Romanian language borrowed from the south languages which were thousands of years older and came from the south. 
I saw some areas of Romania have a quite of E-V13, so there might have been some migrations too, as we know that E-V13 never moved from north to south but rather south to north.

----------


## Милан М.

> Interesting opinions. Would you have a link to the source please?


This work was published in one news outlet you have the names of the two scholars maybe they have something online.

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## Милан М.

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459381][QUOTE=Garrick;459292]

As Милан М mentions *modern Greek* is derived from* old church slavonic.*

I never said such a thing,i said that Old Church Slavonic was based on a Slavic dialect once spoken in what is now Macedonia in Greece.

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## Garrick

> There are some *30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian*.[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.[11]


These words could come from Northern Epirotes, when they assimilated in Albanians, between 5-10 century. These words have little.

No one genetic study says that Albanians are 4.000 years in the Balkans. It would be nonsense, because Albanian as nation don't exist 4.000 years.

But there are a lot Romanian words in Albanian (which have Dacian, Slavic and Latin origin). Dacian was language of inhabitants of Dacia (today Romania) before Romanization.)

*agjёroj* (Alb.) to fast (Eng.)*a ajuna* (Rom.), Origin: Latin
*argёsh*; crude raft; harrow; *Argeş*; Dacian
*argjend*; silver; *argint*; Latin
*arqitё*; willow; *rachita*; Slavic
*ashkё*; wood splinter; *aşchie* Latin
*avull*; steam, vapor; *abur*; Dacian
*baltё*; swamp, marsh; *balta*; Dacian
*bardhё*; white; *barza* Ciconia sp.; Dacian
*bark*; belly, abdomen; *burta*; Dacian
*barkё*; boat; *barca*; Latin
*bashkё*; fleece, wool; *basca*; Dacian
*begatё*; rich; *bogat*; Slavic
*bijё*; daughter; cf. *baiat* boy; Dacian
*bishtajё*; pod, hull, pea; *pastaie* pod; Dacian
*blude*; wooden bowl; *blid*; Slavic
*braz(d)ё*; furrow; *brazda*; Slavic
*brekё*; pants; *a se imbraca*, *bracinari*; Latin
*breshkё*; tortoise; *broasc*a frog; Dacian
*brez*; belt; *briu*, *brin*e; Dacian
*brushtull*; heather; *brustu*re; Dacian
*bryme*; frost; *bruma*; Latin
*buku*r; beautiful; *bucuros* happy; Dacian
*but*; big barrel; *bute*; Latin
*buzё*; lip, edge; *buza*; Dacian
*cicё*; breast, nipple; *tita*; Dacian
*cjap*; he-goat; *tap*; Dacian
*ças*; time; *ceas*; Slavic
*çetё*; clan, armed group; *ceata*, group; Slavic
*çetinё*; pine-tree; *cetina*, fir needles; Dacian

(to be continued) .

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## Yetos

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459381]


> You have given me *some script* from a *student* who said "Although not an expert in Historical and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics myself.
> 
> We are dealing here mostly with scientific studies and comparative Linguistics, good try finding a student who found some words (as all the languages in some form or the other borrow words from another) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know how many times i have to explain it to you that there is *no link from indic/iranic to Albanian* (as per study). Again you just reiterate with NO (own opinion) at least *try to answer* the *study arguing below*.
> 
> ...


you are funny,

Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,
the E-V13 of Bulgaria might be older than Albanian and Kossovo and Greece, (might = possible) since is crossed with PC2 and not PC4,
you take searches about G2a2 and you claim of E-V13

----------


## Yetos

> I read about georgeiev theory, and you should mentioned earlier that. Georgeiev is the only one claiming such thing form Albanians, no one else. Illyrian theory is not something created by Albanians, but by the majority or scholars, and you know it. Georgeiev theory is not supported by other scholars. In Albanian language are loan words by archaic Latin and doric Greek, but those are not in vlachs and Romanian languages. You don't have even a single silly source mentioning any Albanian migration from Danube. Albanians always been there and this is accepted by all the scholars. Albanian language have two dialects ,tosk south and gheg north. Those two dialects are quite different, and the split had begun at least since Roman invasion. The border line between the two, is the ancient highway Via Egnatia . Even today, who speak gheg is from North via Egnatia, and who speak tosk is from south via Egnatia. Thanks the Greek language we have the evidence that Albanians were settled North east ancient Greece since classical historic era.  . Albanian language has some connection even with Celtic language, so I am not surprised that they have some connection with iranic or Armenian language. There are some possibilities that Armenians migrate from Balkans before settling south Caucasus. Even the phrygians firstly dwell in Balkans before going at west Anatolia. For 50 years thracia was subjugated by Persian empire around fifth century bce. 
> And yes the ancient Hellenic civilization was really something very impressive, but I don't see any connection with the inhabitants of modern Greece.  . And nobody said something against helenes on the posts above.


Albanian provocative Propaganda again,
Boring,
and lack of evidence,
just words, for consum

----------


## Yetos

> I am just referring to the sources of Roman empire. There were avars some dacians and other tribes, but not Slavs on the Danube since the late Roman period. There are no sources for them till the last period


Yes but Duridanov's work as other also Connect Thracian with balTo-Slavic
so again you tell nothing,
cause Slavic although was not Balkanic language before 5 century, was familiar in sounds and aspirations and propbably in big vocabulary with Thracian,
Thracian are connected in a vocabulary with Albanian, but not only, also with Brygian Greek Balto-Slavic Armenian Aryan even Scottish Celtic

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## Yetos

> Yes, but Phoenicians were middle eastern people also. I didn't said that all the Illyrian myth is true, but something about that might be true, maybe. To understand the truth, we need to use everything we got, like genetics, historic writing records, archaeology, and even the myths .


How about the ancient city Phoenice in modern Albania?

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## Yetos

> Baltic languages compose together with Slavic languages a distinct branch of IE. Baltic people are different by other Slavs. They are not Slavs. Maybe before 5000 years proto Albanians and proto Baltics were neighbors. They both have some same roots, maybe .


*Albanian is a language of its own, but also Belongs to Balto-Germanic languages, the ones we call Northen IE,*
it is dera like door and not Thyra or porta
Albanian keeps the D aspiration of Norhern non Balkanic languages

it is not a south Balkanic language, neither an Illyrian Celtic

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## Maleth

> Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,
> the E-V13 of Bulgaria might be older than Albanian and Kossovo and Greece, (might = possible) since is crossed with PC2 and not PC4,
> you take searches about G2a2 and you claim of E-V13


My inclination is to believe that south (east) Bulgaria would be the epicenter for E-V13. Black sea Deluge had something to do with expansion further into the western and southern Balkans mixing further with J2's and I2's as it moved south and west.

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## Garrick

Words which Albanian (Alb.) took from Romanian (Rom.), words have Latin, Dacian, Slavic origin (continue):
*
çë* (Alb); what (Eng.); *ce* (Rom.); Origin: Latin
*daltë*; chisel; *daltă*; Slavic
*derdh*; to pour out; (*derdelu**ș*?) frozen slope; Dacian
*detyrë*; debt, duty; *datorie*; Latin
*dërmoj*; to plummet down, cut in pieces; *a dărîma*, tear off; Latin
*dobis*; to win; *a dobîndi*; Slavic
*dojkë*; wet-nurse; *doică*; Slavic
*drejtë*; straight, right; *drept*; Latin
*dru*; tree, wood; *druete* (archaic); Dacian
*edh*; he-goat; *ied* kid; Latin
*engjëll*; angel; *înger*; Latin
*ergjënd*; silver; *argint*; Latin (argentum)
*eshkë*; fungus; *iască*; Dacian, not Latin
*fame*; fame, reputation; *faimă*; Latin
*faqe*; face, cheek; *fa**ț**ă*; Latin
*farkë*; smithy ; from lat. Fabrica; *faur*, smith from faber; Latin
*fat*; friend (not from fatum); *făt*; Latin
*femër*; woman; (*femeie*); Latin
*fëmijë*; child, family, spouse; *femei*e; Latin
*flakë*, pl. *Flakëra*; flame; *flacără*; Latin (flamma)
*flojere*; flute; *fluier*; Dacian
*flok*; hair; *floc*; Latin
*flutur*; butterfly; *future*; Dacian
*fraq*; biting cold; *frig*; Latin
*frashër*; ash-tree; *frasin*; Latin
*fre*; bridle; *frîie*; Latin
*fruer* February *făurar* Latin
*fryt*; fruit; *frupt*; Latin
*fshat*; village; *sat*; Latin
*fshikë*, *pshik*ë; blister; *bă**ș**ică*; Latin
*ftujë* (*vëtulë*); one year old she-goat; *vătui*; Dacian
*furkë*; fork, distaff; *furcă* distaff, fork; Latin (furca)
*fytyrë*; face; *făptură* body; Latin
*gamule*; heap, mound; *măgură*; Dacian
*gardh*; fence; *gard*; Dacian
*gatuaj*; make ready, prepare; *a găti*; Slavic
*gavër*; hole; *gaură*; Dacian
*gëlbazë*; liver, fluke; *gălbează*; Dacian
*gërmadhë*; ruin; *grămadă* heap; Slavic
*gilcë*; sinew, groin; *gîlci*; Slavic
*glasë*; bird’s droppings; *găina**ț*; Latin
*gozhup*; lambskin, waistcoat; *cojoc*; Slavic
*grabis*; to steal, rob; *a grăbi* (arch. to steal); Slavic
*gradinë*; garden; *grădină*; Slavic
*grazhd*; manger; *grajd* horse stall; Slavic 

(to be continued)

Dacian territories (blue and black) in Europe 125 year AD, Roman Empire

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## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]*Garrick*[/B];459449]




> Words which Albanian (Alb.) took from Romanian (Rom.), words have Latin, Dacian, Slavic origin (continue):



Why the most *scientist* place *Albanian before Romanian* than?


*If Albanian derived* from Romanian then Scientist would have placed something like this (*main branches from oldest to newest*)

Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, *ROMANIAN*, indo-iranian, Balto-slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Italic

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## noUseForAname

> Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,



I meant Ancient Greek is 3,500 ybp, however split *at least* around 5,000 from Anatolian.

Is Mycenean PEI?...i don't see it nowhere in the studies.

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## Yetos

> I meant Ancient Greek is 3,500 ybp, however split *at least* around 5,000 from Anatolian.
> 
> Is Mycenean PEI?...i don't see it nowhere in the studies.


Ancient Greek is a strange case, but well explained through time due to written,

the oldest Greek known is Mycenean and Homeric (certianly 1500 BC) , Ancient Greek (Doric/Hesiodos) is after both (certainly 900BC),

Mycenean shows more connectivity with latin, than Homeric which is closer with Aryan and Eastern languages,
while more 'true' Greek with all aspirations and vocabulary is the language of Hesiodos which even today it is easier to understand at once by modern Greek than previous 2
for example Mycenean βασιλευς basileus = King from ga-si-reus reus rois reich 
Homeric uses aga for ga but king is αναξ (ανακτος) and female ανακις ανακισσα anakissa compare anahitta the queen in Aryan,


in many modern models there is a strong repeat mistake,
see this to understand 

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31280-Mismodeling-Indo-European-Origins-The-Assault-On-Historical-Linguistics

----------


## Garrick

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459454]


> *Garrick*[/B];459449]
> 
> 
> Why the most *scientist* place *Albanian before Romanian* than?
> 
> 
> *If Albanian derived* from Romanian then Scientist would have placed something like this (*main branches from oldest to newest*)
> 
> Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, *ROMANIAN*, indo-iranian, Balto-slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Italic


No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian.
...

Armenian and Albanian have specifically place in IE structure. Once there were a lot of IE languages in Anatolia and Caucasus but now no.

Sometimes someone give classification of IE languages where Armenian and Albanian are in the same branch.



I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.

It is interesting question if Armenians and Albanians can be considered as fraternal people. Today, no, because big changes haven take place both Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian. Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!

But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion).

When speakers of proto Albanian left Caucasus, where they were all moving until they came to the Southern Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, it is very hard to someone gives answer.

What is about Southern Ukraine/Moldova/Romania?

I have no all answers, of course. Who has?

I gave territories of Roman Empire and beyond in first century. Greco-Egyptian geographer Claudius Ptolemy gave list of twelve Dacian tribes. Of course, there are more tribes. Here one list:


Albocenses - lived west of the PotulatensesAnarti - lived in the north westApuli - lived in central Transylvania with their capital at Apulum (Piatra Craivii)Biephi - lived west of the BuridavensesBuridavenses - lived in northern Moldavia with their citadel BuridavaCalipizi - lived between the Dnestr and the Bug riversCarpi - lived east of the Carpathians and west of the Dnestr river. The name of the Carpathian Mountains probably comes from the name of this tribeCaucoenses - lived to the eastCiagisi - between the Saldenses and PiephigiCostoboci - lived in northern and north-eastern Dacia, reaching the territory of modern Ukraine and MoldaviaCotenses - live east of the BuridavensesCrobobizi and the Trizi - lived in DobrogeaKeiasigi - lived in TransylvaniaPiephigi - lived in Moldavia and eastern MunteniaPotulatenses - between the Albocenses and SiensesPredavenses - lived in the westRatacenses - between the Predavenses and the CaucoensesSaldenses - lived in the Banat and CrisanaSienses - lived east of the PotulatensesSuci - lived in Oltenia with their citadel Sucidava at the mouth of the river OltTeurisci - lived in the northTyragetae - lived at the mouth of the river Dnestr. 

In literature there can be more tribes, but, for now, it is enough.

Could Ptolomy and other Greek and Romanian smart people from that time make difference between languages which tribes used. Somwhere yes, somewhere no. Because in this list there are tribes from different branches, not only Dacian. Languages which were not Greek or Latin were Barbarian languages, no matter if Dacian, Balto-Slavic, Celtic, Iranian, etc.

If any of these tribes is Albanian and not Dacian, what is probability that the Greek and Roman intellectuals noticed this. Very little.
It is possible that any of these (or another not in this list) tribes is Albanian and not Dacian. It is possible that better candidates are tribes from Carpathian part of Romania, Moldavia or Southern Western Ukraine (of course in today’s boundaries).
Some experts considered tribe of *Carpi* as Albanians. And *Costoboci* tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about *Piephigi* tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.

(Speculations: Albanians often have “je”, for. example pjell = give birth; other words can have roots: fe = faith, belief; gjej = find; fe gjej = find belief).

Here only Romanian and Moldavian members of forum can help, nobody second can know better Dacia and neighbor history, then they.

In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;459572]



> No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian.


Ok then it should be the *contrary* of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, *thousands of years difference.*





> I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.
> Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
> Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!


I don't know why you are so fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with *Armenian-Phrygian-Greek*, while* Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic.*

<b style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);"><font color="#333333">







> I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian.


Where does it say that speakers of proto Albanians lived more eastern in new New Zeland Study? *can you source it please?*
The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from *Anatolian* 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)





> But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion).


The relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

*Maciamo* argues Dorians with major R1b came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp. 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml

He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient *Armenians originated in the southern Balkans* in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia. 

The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the *8th century BCE*. Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that *R1a were the latest new comers* at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.





> Some experts considered tribe of *Carpi* as Albanians. And *Costoboci* tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about *Piephigi* tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.
> In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.



Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (do you have the source?), this are surely not studies but "mythical theories" as you mentioned before.

These are *AD periods*, are e you aware of *Albanians genetically* and language were at South east Europe since *at least 4,000* ybp?....read the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “*identical by descent*” are at the south east Europe Balkanic since at least 4,000 ybp.










bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian* is the red *colour* and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at *2550-4335 years ago.


*http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname
I told you that model of Lazaridis et al is imperfect/imprecise it is only way to come to better, more robust models.

For example, you can see:




> That explains why someone with inside information said Armenians are 30% European H&G. *Using modern Bedoins as proxy for ENF is absolut nonsense.* They also seem to simply put all UHG ancestry under WHG. Not taking into account that EEF is mostly UHG + Basal Eurasian.


They had no ancient genome from Near East. I wrote more times, we'll know of more ancient European meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Eurasia and Northern Africa. 

You sholudn't compare today's populations. Today Armenians and Albanians are not same as people who spoke Proto Armenian and Proto Albanian, they were much more similar. Big changes were for 5,000 years and more. I think that Armenians today and Neolithic Armenians are different! My opinion that South Western Asian component came later in Armenian substratum. And if you see Albanians have relatively strong West Asian ancestry and lesser North European.

And more, it is possible that speakers of Proto Armenian and speakers of Proto Albanians had same haplogroups! (for Y-DNK: R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype and E-V13, maybe in different proportions.

For me, it will be interesting the paper:

*BALKAN GENETIC SIGNALS IN THE ARMENIAN PATERNAL GENE POOL*

http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=365

*On the whole, our results only partly support the version of Balkan origin of the Armenians, and in contrast to it, mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe.*

...
The area where speakers of Proto Armenian and Proto Albanian lived can be Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia or even Northern Iran. In these areas were a lot of languages IE Anatolia-Caucasus branch, and it seems only Armenian and Albanian survived.

And it is area where speakers of Proto Armenian, Proto Albanian and Proto Northern Iranian languages could be linked. 

I know that some words in Albanian could come from standard Persian, in time of Ottomans, but North Iranian languages are specifically and quite far from today's Persian. It would be unbelievable if even today's Albanian has similar some words with North Iranian languages in Caucasus and near that these words came from standard Persian, which has no these words.

...
What is interesting for area of * Northern-Eastern Romania, Moldavia and South-Western Ukraine* in the Roman Empire time. Wider area was full of tribes of different branches. You can find not only Dacian tribes, but Balto-Slavic, Celtic, German, Iranian etc. Probably it is reason why Albanian could took words from different languages. And it is possible that one or two of tribes for who Greek and Latin considered as Dacian, were Albanian.

Serious researchers linked Albanians with some Dacian tribes. I told you for *Carpi* and *Costoboci*. For me *Piephigi* are interesting too but I didn't find about them and I can say nothing, and any another tribes in that region. In reality some of tribe addressed as Dacian wasn't (or these tribes weren't) Dacian, but Albanian, but Greek and Latin smart people didn't make difference, didn't notice it. What is not surprise, because for them, all languages non Latin or Greek, were Barbarian.

But these researchers mostly are not Albanians and they are not known among Albanians.

...
It is not offense but I must say who was big promoter Albanian - Illyrian connection.

Albanian communist Enver Hoxha.

And for it the reason exists.

Stalin embraced idea of Internationale, trying for global world movement of working class. 

Tito embraced idea of brotherhood and unity, trying for all South-Slavic people to be one nation - Yugoslavs.

What Enver Hoxha could embrace?

He abolished religion, he isolated country (cooperating only with China), he held population in submissiveness. He had to have some glue. And he found it, he embraced idea about Balkan antiquity and connection Pelasgians, Illyrians, etc. with Albanians.

Facts were not important, everything was in service of "idea" of Albanian antiquity, morever in such a environment, even Greek history in engineering Enver Hoxa's quasiexperts "became Albanian history, Greek gods became Albanian gods", etc.!?

And after Enver Hoxha, unfortunately, some Albanians, but not all, continued his cliches.

I will give only one example, because it is nonsense:*

Why the greeks have stolen the ancient culture of Albanian- Pelasgean people?
*
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...022811AAAf3ib#

What someone who is serious can say on this (plus Greeks is written in small letter).

Enlightement or tomfoolery.

...
It is not problem when people come with different ideas. But problem is when propaganda is trying to supress different opinions.

...
There are researches who link any Dacian tribe with Albanians.

For example the *Romanian historian Russu* has originated the theory that *Albanians represent a massive migration of the Carpi*. 

In Albanian _karpë_ is rock.

Maybe *Carpathians* means "*mountains of the Carpi*", there is this opinion.

*Costoboci* have also been associated with *Albanians*.

We will see. I gave a list of the tribes. Researchers in next years will come to new knowledge.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]*Garrick*[/B];459595]

Can we discuss by *multiple quotes* please, WORD by words, cause it is getting messy and usually you never answer.

*Lets start over again*, then i answer your last long text.....FYI no political discussions please (only genetical and linguistics studies)





> _No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian._



Ok then it should be the *contrary of those word similarities you have posted,* it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.





> _I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable._
> _Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people._
> _Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!
> _


I don't know why you are so fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with *Armenian-Phrygian-Greek,* while* Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic.

*<strong><strong>







> _I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian.
> _


Where does it say that speakers of proto *Albanians lived more eastern* in new New Zeland Study? *can you source it please?
*The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from Anatolian 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)





> _But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion)._


the relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

*Maciamo* argues Dorians with major R1b came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp. 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml
He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia. 

The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the 8th century BCE. Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that R1a were the latest new comers at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.





> _Some experts considered tribe of_ *Carpi as Albanians.* And Costoboci tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about Piephigi tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.
> In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.


Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (*do you have the source?*), this are surely not studies but "mythical theories" as you mentioned before.

These are *AD periods,* are e you aware of Albanians genetically and language were at South east Europe since at least 4,000 ybp?....
*How can they migrate from AD times* from north especially Carpatians Current Moldova and far north Romania?

read the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “identical by descent” are at the *south east Europe Balkanic* since at least *4,000* ybp.*










*bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian is the red* colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the other neighbours at *2550-4335 years ago*.*


*http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

----------


## Garrick

> Ok then it should be the *contrary* of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, *thousands of years difference.*





> Ok then it should be the *contrary of those word similarities you have posted,* it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.


Please, do you believe in this really? You think that Romanians (Dacians) borrowed words from Albanians?!

Smaller nation can give the language to bigger nation if members of smaller nations are rulers. But I don’t know that Albanians ruled Dacia.

Ancestors of Albanians lived in “Dacian sea”. Can someone think that Dacians who dominated in big area took words from ancestors of Albanians who had one or several tribes, were much smaller numerous and lived somewhere in isolated areas, in mountains. 

No, it is not possible.

It would be good that Romanian members of forum comment this.

*There are “sea of words” in Albanian which borrowed from Romanian*, this is third part:

*grebash* (Alb.), rake (Eng.), *greblă* (Rom.), Origin: Slavic 
*grope*, hole, grave, *groapă*, Slavic
*grunë*, wheat, *grîne* wheat, Latin
*gurmaz*, gullet, *grumaz*, Dacian
*gushë*, crop, not throat, *gu**ș**ă*, Dacian
*gjelbën*, green, *galben* yellow, Latin
*gjobë*, fine, penalty, *gloabă*, Slavic
*harabel,* sparrow, *vrabie*, Slavic
*harmëshor*, stallion, stud, *armăsar*, Latin
*hirrë* /*ksira, whey, *zer* Dacian
*iriq*, hedgehog, *arici,* Latin 
*kaçule*, hood, *căciulă*, Dacian
*kade*, barrel, *cadă*, Latin
*kale*, horse, *cal,* Latin
*kalibe*, hut, *colibă*, Greek or Dacian or Wanderwort
*kangjel*, song, *cîntec*, *cîntecel*, Latin
*kapruall*, roebuck căprior, *căprioară*, Latin
*karrabisht*, earwig, *cărăbu**ș*, bug, Latin or Greek
*kastravet*, cucumber, *castravete*, Slavic
*katund*, village (old Wanderwort) Mongol, Ainu qotan, *cătun*, Dacian or Wanderwort
*kelbazë*, spleen inflammation, liver fluke, *gălbează*, Dacian
*këmishë*, shirt, *căma**ș**ă*, Latin
*këndoj,* to sing, *a cînta*, Latin
*këngë*, song, *cîntec*, Latin
*këputë*, sole, *căpută*, Latin
*këpurdhë*, mushroom, *ciupercă*, Dacian
*këpushë*, tick, *căpu**ș**ă*, Dacian
*kërkoj*, to seek, to look for, *a cerca*, Latin
*kobë*, bad augury, *cobe*, Dacian
*kofshë*, hip, thigh coxa, *coapsă*, Latin
*kom*, mane, *coamă*, Latin
*kopil,* bastard, *copil*, unknown
*korb*, raven, *corb*, Latin
*kosë*, scythe, *coasă*, Slavic
*kosë*, plait, *cosi**ț**ă*, Slavic
*kosis*, to mow, *a cosi*, Slavic
*kosore*, small, scythe, *cosor* pruning knife, Slavic
*kosh*, basket, *co**ș*, Slavic
*kreshmë*, Lent Quadragesima, *păresimi*, Latin
*krënd*, foliage, brushwood, leaves, *creangă*, *crîng*, Dacian 

(to be continued)

----------


## Angela

Garrick, I'm really not getting the point of your constant attempt to connect Albanian to Armenian. Both languages, and also the Balto-Slavic languages and a host of others, are "Indo-European". I'm sure you agree with that. Most linguists believe that these languages expanded from the Pontic Caspian steppe. Do you agree with that? OK, assuming that you do, this is a graphic for the presumed dispersal of the people and languages.




The dotted line is for the* Anatolian* languages (*Hittite* etc, *not* Armenian). Some scholars posit that Anatolian also moved into Anatolia from the Balkans. 



Whichever version you choose, *Armenian* still moves from the* Balkans to Anatolia*, not the other way around.


Now, if you want to go with Grey and Atkinson, who have been excoriated by linguists, this is the spread.



Even with this model, it seems to me that Albanian was in the Balkans before Slavic. In fact, to me it seems that perhaps the Slavic speakers mostly went down the middle of the Balkans, separating Romanians/Bulgarians from Albanians. I don't know how likely it is that instead Albanians later moved from the east to the west of the Balkans. Regardless, I think it's extremely likely that Slavic was the last language to appear in the Balkans.

Maybe if Taranis is around, he could correct me if I've gone wrong. :) He has a wealth of knowledge about linguistics.

----------


## Sile

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459612]


> *Garrick*[/B];459595]
> 
> Can we discuss by *multiple quotes* please, WORD by words, cause it is getting messy and usually you never answer.
> 
> *Lets start over again*, then i answer your last long text.....FYI no political discussions please (only genetical and linguistics studies)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


is this why gheg and tosk differ ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line

----------


## Garrick

> Garrick, I'm really not getting the point of your constant attempt to connect Albanian to Armenian. Both languages, and also the Balto-Slavic languages and a host of others, are "Indo-European". I'm sure you agree with that. Most linguists believe that these languages expanded from the Pontic Caspian steppe. Do you agree with that? OK, assuming that you do, this is a graphic for the presumed dispersal of the people and languages.
> The dotted line is for the* Anatolian* languages (*Hittite* etc, *not* Armenian). Some scholars posit that Anatolian also moved into Anatolia from the Balkans. 
> Whichever version you choose, *Armenian* still moves from the* Balkans to Anatolia*, not the other way around.


Yes, Angela, I know it. But, what it is interesting, Armenians mostly refuse such opinions. They think that earliest record for which someone can say it has Armenian component is Armenic-Summer inscription from about 2.700 year BC. Next early record is from 2.300 year BC in Diabekr region linked with Akkadians. 

Armenians think that inhabitants of kingdom of Mitanni are the ancestors of the modern day Armenians:



https://narinnamkn.wordpress.com/201...e-in-armenian/



Therefore this scientific study is important:

http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=365

And in Abstract authors write "in contrast to it, *mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe*".

Look at this:


Ancient Armenians: R1b and E1b!

Armenians have R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype. Is E1b = E-V13?

I supposed this result when I linked IE proto languages in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and beyond, and it is confirmation of said above.

Plus Ancient Armenians had no South West Asian genes!. We have Armenians in Bronze age vs Armenians today. South West Asian genes came later.

It is obvious that for Armenians there are many unknowns but new researches can say more than before. 
...




> Even with this model, it seems to me that Albanian was in the Balkans before Slavic. In fact, to me it seems that perhaps the Slavic speakers mostly went down the middle of the Balkans, separating Romanians/Bulgarians from Albanians. I don't know how likely it is that instead Albanians later moved from the east to the west of the Balkans. Regardless, I think it's extremely likely that Slavic was the last language to appear in the Balkans.
> 
> Maybe if Taranis is around, he could correct me if I've gone wrong. :) He has a wealth of knowledge about linguistics.


My intention wasn't that compare the time of coming one or other languages. For me it does not matter. Honestly, few people know about beginnings of Slavic languages.

This is map of Europe in 3rd century. Nobody can see Slavs here.



But for 150-200 years half of Europe speak Slavic. I don't know how it is possible.
...

Slavic languages are not the thread here and I had not paid attention.

But what it is important what I put. It is very high dependence Albanian language from Romanian. Albanian linguists know it but they don't write, and of course, other experts write. I gave a lot of words which Albanian borrowed from Romanian. But these words have many many more, maybe thousands.

It cannot be accidentally. In one longer periods Albanians lived with Romanians (Dacians) and they borrowed their words. Albanians didn't rule in Dacia that Dacians (Romanians) take Albanian words. When Albanians moved from North-East to South-West of Balkans, there aren't records, but I gave sources which tell about 5-10 century.

It is impossible that Albanians have a lot of Romanians words if they lived in today's areas. Who cannot understand that Albanians in longer period of time lived in the territory of today Romania (in this time Dacia) he or she cannot understand movements. 

We should here to speak about Pelasgians, but evidence for link between Pelasgians and Albanians don't exist. Evidence for link between Illyrians and Albanians don't exist. No one Greek or Roman source mentions Albanian. *First source in the Albanian language* (as spoken in the region around Mat) *was recorded in 1462 by Paulus Angelius* (whose name was later Albanized to Pal Engjëll), *the archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Durazzo* (modern Durres).

But what exists there are hard facts about link Romanian and Albanian, and words which Albanian borrowed from Romanian.

All what need is to find which tribe (or tribes) in Dacia were not Dacian but Albanian. I gave list of Dacian tribes. 

Romanian scientist Russu gave theory that Carpi tribe migrated from Carpathian mountains and near to Albania. This migration was from the 5th century. Migration was due Hunnic invasion.

It is not new. Romanian philologist Hasdeu studied that Albanians are descedants of Costoboci. Costoboci and Carpi lived in neighborhood, Costoboci were more Eastern (territory todays Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania). It is interesting scientists are not sure if Costoboci were Dacian, or Sarmatian, or what.

We have no records about some other Dacian tribes. I trying to find data for Piefigi tribe but I didn't find. We will see new findings. Romanian and other scientists will continue researches.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;459616]


Thanks for the first answer, how about the next ones too, *can you answer please?*





> _I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.
> Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
> Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!
> _


I don't know why you are so *fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus*, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with *Armenian-Phrygian-Greek,* while Albanian is of a *Western branch Balkanic*.
<strong><strong>

*


*


> _I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian._


Where does it say that speakers of proto Albanians lived more eastern in new New Zeland Study? *can you source it please?*
The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from Anatolian 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)


> _But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion)._


the relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

*Maciamo* argues *Dorians* with *major R1b* came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp. 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml
He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia. 

*The East European R1a*-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the *8th century BCE.* Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that R1a were the latest new comers at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.





> _
> Some experts considered tribe of Carpi as Albanians. And Costoboci tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about Piephigi tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.
> In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania._*
> *


Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (*do you have the source?*), this are surely not studies but "*mythical theories*" as you mentioned before.

*These are AD periods*, are e you aware of *Albanians* genetically and language were at *South east Europe since at least 4,000 ybp?*....

*How can they migrate from AD times from north especially Carpatians Current Moldova and far north Romania?*
*
r*ead the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “*identical by descent*” are at the south east Europe *Balkanic* since at least4,000 ybp.*










*bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian is the red* colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the other neighbours at *2550-4335 years ago*.*


*http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

----------


## noUseForAname

> is this why gheg and tosk differ ?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line



*Jireqek line* is history of Slavic people at 1911, we are talking here for *much earlier periods*. 


Gegh and tosk share the same language and genetically not much of a difference.

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## Garrick

Unfortunately I will not be able for some time to participate in the forum. Long hot summer is made for enjoyment.

But I will come back, with new and fresh information, and probably I will open new thread.

…
I think it said much of what is important in this moment.

Paper by Lazaridis et al is imperfect/imprecise. The explanation is simple for this, researches did not have a lot of important data. For example they took Bedoins as proxy what is nonsense. They had no ancient genome from Near East. We'll know of more ancient European meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Eurasia and Northern Africa.

But, what they give, we can see interesting things. For example Albanians have little WHG and bigger ANE, similar to population of Anatolia/Caucasus. Someone based only this fact can think that they came later to the Balkans. For some who lived longer in Europe it is logical that WHG is bigger and ANE is smaller and this should be different from population of Anatolia/Caucasus. But let me not be understood. I would not speculate further about it since I told that conclusions drawn on the basis Lazaridis et al can be misleading.

The situation is similar to model by Ralf, Coop. They said that there are many possible histories shared ancestry. And this model is approximation and someone can have wrong conclusions based on it. 

If the models can be misleading because they are approximation and due to the lack of appropriate data why they important. They are important for science because it is way to come to better, more robust models which will be lesser approximate and more to match the truth. For hobbyists however these models are irrelevant because they can be wrong concluded and lead to complete misinterpretations.

It is obvious that the population of Anatolia/Caucasus at near in ancient times (BA) is important for the interpretation of the movement of the population of the Balkans. In this regard it is also important to determine which routes were moving languages (their speakers), whether from Anatolia/Caucasus/near to the Balkans or inversely.

Here is the essential disagreements: whether the languages (their speakers) arrived from the Balkans to Anatolia/Caucasus/near or languages (their speakers) arrived from Anatolia/Caucasus/near to the Balkans. In ancient times it is a population with similar genomes, and with similar haplogropus. The approximate models can’t determine which population with similar genomes is older: in Anatolia/Caucasus/near or in Balkans.

My opinion is that in the case of Armenians and Albanians proto language originated in Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus or near. Anatolia/Caucasus/near are the cradle of language (their speakers) and bearers of haplogroups. From there were further movements of these populations including the part of them finished to the Balkans. Yes, there were reverse movements, from Balkans to Anatolia, but they were lesser important.

This is fundamental question that must be understood and concerns 50% of this discussion and refers to the ancient times:


Inhabitants of Anatolia/Caucasus/near mostly originate from BalkansThe part of Balkan population (here we will focus only in today’s Albanians due to thread) mostly originate from Anatolia/Caucasus/near. 

The other 50% of this discussion refers to where it has developed a modern Albanian. There are two opinions:


Modern Albanian is developed on the territory today’s Romania/Moldavia/Southern Ukraine (Dacian areas and near)Modern Albanian is emerged from Pelasgian (or Illyrian). 

Two members of forum in this thread (Albanian origin) think that Albanian is continuity of Pelasgian. But we didn’t see evidence in this thread to support this claim. We have nothing to link Albanian with Illyrian, too.

Vis-a-vis 2. which is without evidence, I strongly support 1. . I presented arguments and proofs that the Albanian language is developed in Romania/Moldavia/SouthWest Ukraine, in the areas where majority were Dacians. I gave the sources which corroborate it, and more than 110 words which Albanian took from Romanian, and I can give much more (there are thousands).

In the science assumption about Pelasgian link with Albanian is rejected. It is old idea, from 1854, but it is obsolete now, and it is not in focus of serious scientists (except nationalists) for a long time.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]Garrick[/B];459689]



> Unfortunately I will not be able for some time to participate in the forum. Long hot summer is made for enjoyment.
> But I will come back, with new and fresh information, and probably I will open new thread.


Well except *you are like running* and leaving behind the questions you haven't answered, because you just write a lot usually without scientific arguments and all of those you had were from "mythical fictional theories" (you have mentioned by yourself).
Hopefully if you come back *you answer those*...





> Albanians have little WHG and bigger ANE, similar to population of Anatolia/Caucasus. Someone based only this fact can think that they came later to the Balkans.


Yes of course ANE is later, and *Albanian descend* from *ANE 17%*, that is the percentage of newcomers, and ANE is not Anatolia nor Caucus but Yamna (and we are not going back where Yamna came from) which seem for the Albanians to descend from there around 3,500 (probably majority R1b)...current R1b within Albanians is 18% (very close number up to now still).

So to your answer, *YES* around *17%* are late Albanian R1b newcomers at around 3,000 ybp. (if we can say this way)

*However*, Albanians have *77% of EN*, and scientist argue that *Sardinians* are the population that is closest to early European farmers 2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ 90% *descent** from them*. *Albanians are second* and Greeks third. Now we all know that Early European farmers probably descend from the far south west Levant and far north East Egypt. *But we are not going back from 10,000 ybp*, and we know that Early European farming started very early at the very south east Europe as early as 10,000. 





> The situation is similar to model by *Ralf, Coop*. They said that there are many possible histories shared ancestry. And this model is approximation and someone can have wrong conclusions based on it.


The study argues that By far the *highest rates of IBD* within any populations is found between *Albanian speakers*—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (*so high that we left them out of* Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of *IBD drop to levels* typical for other *populations* *in the eastern grouping*.
*Albanian* is the red *colour* and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at *2550-4335 years ago.
*
Furthermore, our *Greek* and *Macedonian* samples share much *higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors*, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled *Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other*. The *Albanian language* is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods *when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek*, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

I dont know why you say *i got wrong conclusions* when i *ONLY copy paste* the study arguing (above).
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555





> This is fundamental question that must be understood and concerns 50% of this discussion and refers to the ancient times:
> 
> Inhabitants of Anatolia/Caucasus/near mostly originate from BalkansThe part of Balkan population (here we will focus only in today’s Albanians due to thread) mostly originate from Anatolia/Caucasus/near.


Neither the 1st nor 2nd were the questions, until you came to this thread and started arguing that Albanians originate from Caucus AD periods then originate from Carpi AD periods, then trying to link Albanian language with berber (non PEI), Romanian (AD periods) and Armenian. When clearly major studies argues that Albanian split from PEI directly at least 3,000 ybp and its a separate branch with no other links.
On the other side genetics has shown that Albanians are descend from south east Europe at least 4,000 ybp. So dont know how they came from Carpi (Moldavia) AD periods, you were only missing thousands of years though.
You have actually came with the *least possible suppositions,* with that of scientist (maybe you have some dislike for Albanians because it clearly shows you were one sided), 





> The other 50% of this discussion refers to where it has developed a modern Albanian. There are two opinions:
> 
> Modern Albanian is developed on the territory today’s Romania/Moldavia/Southern Ukraine (Dacian areas and near)Modern Albanian is emerged from Pelasgian (or Illyrian).


There is no such thing as modern Albanian (you came with this). its widely argued that Albanian language is at least 3,000 ybp. And current Albanians genetically descend from south east Europe of at least 4,000 ybp.
Now call them Pelazgian or Illyrian or any other names, it is obvious they were there (south east Europe) at least 4,000 ybp. 





> Two members of forum in this thread (Albanian origin) think that Albanian is continuity of Pelasgian. But we didn’t see evidence in this thread to support this claim. We have nothing to link Albanian with Illyrian, too.


*Maciamo* argues that E-V13 is since around 8,000 at the Peloponnese area South Greece, and we know that Albanians have the highest of E-V13 in the world (over 40%)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml

So Even if they are not descend from Pelazgian, its sure they have the same dna since Early Neolithic at the south east Europe.





*By 6,000 ybp* all Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions majority E-V13, including current Serbia mid to south (excludes Bulgaria and Romania)......*Confirming* that E-V13 spread from south (supporting that Albanians E-V13 never migrated from Carpi Moldovia)



By 5,000 ybp Helladic Greece majority E-V13....even *Vinca Culture* majority E-V13



Then some R1a came at 4,000 to Mycenean Greece and Macedonia (probably in small number as still R1a is very low at south east Europe)

Then we have Dorians R1b at 3,000 ybp (probably in much more numbers than R1a as R1b is pretty high still around 17%)


So according to *Maciamo* overall it looks like since 9,000 ybp E-V13 was a majority in the south east (Albanian speaking regions and Greek), I2a pretty old (probably at the very small numbers and coming from Dalmatia).....R1b at high numbers around 3,000 and R1a in small numbers in 4,000. 
J2 who is the 3rd major group after R1b (i have got not much info regarding that)





> Vis-a-vis 2. which is without evidence, I strongly support 1. . I presented arguments and proofs that the Albanian language is developed in Romania/Moldavia/SouthWest Ukraine, in the areas where majority were Dacians. I gave the sources which corroborate it, and more than 110 words which Albanian took from Romanian, and I can give much more (there are thousands).


You have shown no scientific papers *except "mythical fictional theories"* as you mentioned. And borrowings between languages show no evidence, the evidence is that Albanian is thousands of years older than Romanian and dacian. Dont know what do you want to show with language borrowings as all the language do borrow through time.

----------


## Garrick

I will not participate some time in the forum, but only here I will say that someone cannot see your appropriate arguments (it is not offense). All of these revolves around carriers of E-V13, but this haplogroup is prevalent in many nations and you can try calculate how small percent of E-V13 carriers in the world are Albanians, you cannot all E-V13 carriers to identify as Albanians. You’ll be surprised when I get back, and I will show that New Zealand scientists didn’t design their model accidentally, it is really Albanian has similarities with (Northern and Western) Iranian languages of Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and near. Also, I don’t know why you underestimate Dacian and Romanian language, and Albanian loans from this language, and where you have evidence that Albanian is older than Dacian, maybe you here think about proto languages but it is different story plus proto Dacian can be old; I showed that Albanian borrowed a lot of words from Romanian, and I will give more, plus modern Albanian is not term that I invented, you can see this term is widely used. Science rejected link between Pelasgian and Albanian, you can see it in books and in Internet, I said nothing new.

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## Piro Ilir

> Who said that Balts are Slavs? that was your friend lol


Balts are not Slavs but are the the closest branch of IE to Slavs. All the tables of IE show thus. Before millennia they were the same people.

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## Piro Ilir

> How do you know which tribe in Roman historiography was Slavic,Germanic or anything else speaking unless their language is attested,like Roman historians were asking them who which language spoke when writing for them.Proto Slavs are imagination in this sence yours,Proto Slavic language exist Proto Slavs as unique "single tribe" does not.Nothing offensive there but the one that conquered the Balkans were in the Danube basin and in Pannonia not in the steppe,what is your argument that they came from somewhere else?they couldn't appear in 3 places at once,the steppe were Iranic and then Turkic after Kievan Rus conquered that become Slavic speaking,plus isolated Slavic groups could live well within the empire much prior,nothing weird in that,when 'Slavs" and other ethnic groups started to write we heard about their ethnic designations but not by outsiders,Serbs constantly were called Tribalians(Thracian tribe) by their South neighbors Greeks,but not the Serbs themselves except for the Tribalian coat of arms they used some times,you need arguments perhaps to prove that Slavic wasn't spoken there where exactly was the power base of those groups conquering the Balkans.


Panonians were not Slavs. They were yllirians, as we know from ancient sources. As much as we read, in Danube were not Slavic tribes till the 5 and 6 century. Sarmatians as we know were not Slavs

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## Piro Ilir

> These words could come from Northern Epirotes, when they assimilated in Albanians, between 5-10 century. These words have little.
> 
> No one genetic study says that Albanians are 4.000 years in the Balkans. It would be nonsense, because Albanian as nation don't exist 4.000 years.
> 
> But there are a lot Romanian words in Albanian (which have Dacian, Slavic and Latin origin). Dacian was language of inhabitants of Dacia (today Romania) before Romanization.)
> 
> *agjёroj* (Alb.) to fast (Eng.)*a ajuna* (Rom.), Origin: Latin
> *argёsh*; crude raft; harrow; *Argeş*; Dacian
> *argjend*; silver; *argint*; Latin
> ...


Serbs and Bulgarians don't have archaic words of Greek, why so? If Albanians came so late after the Slavs why Slavs don't have those loans. Especially in south Albania ( epirus ) are too many place names of Slavic origin. If the Slavs came first why they don't have early Greek words and neither earlier Latin words. East and West vlach dialects don't have archaic Latin words which show that this language is formed much later the early Roman invasion. Albanians have archaic loans from the Latin and Greek but the Slavs don't, even that Albanians came after the Slavs in West Balkans, what kind of logic is this of yours  ? If Slavs came first why they don't borrowed nothing from the populations there? For Albanians is too easy to learn the Italian language, because of 500-600 years of Roman occupation their language is now closest to Italian language. We have some words which are proven to be Illyrian but for few of them we know the meaning. I like one of those words: Illyrian sika-English knife -Albanian thika . Sicar-ius, in Albanian Thikar or thikar-as . I can say to you Aphrodite , but this goddess name is of pelasgian origin not Illyrian, and try to decipher it in Albanian . ...

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## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]Garrick[/B];459739] 


> you cannot all E-V13 carriers to identify as Albanians.


Of course, *i never said all E-V13 is Albanian*. They are *descend from E-V13* (highest in the world) and that confirms (genetically) *that at least half* of them *never moved from Carpi Moldovia* or Romania as you claim (because as shown E-V13 never moved from north to south)....Also never moved from east Anatolia/Caucus (see *Maciamo* maps).

I1 and I2a (15 %) *confirms* it never came from those areas.
*R1b (19%)* came from Dorians from *Hallstat Culture* at around 3,000 ybp (*confirms* it never came from those areas)
*J1 (5%)* might have came from central Anatolia (not Caucus) probably 4,000 ybp
*J2 (14%)* might have came from central Anatolia (not Caucus) probably 3,000 ybp
*R1a (7.5%)* This might be those* slavic peoples* and the *most recent newcomers* (1,000 ybp), surelly from much northers areas, it could be Carpi or today Poland.
Although R1a according to Maciamo came 4,000 ybp as (non yet slavic) to Mycenaean Greece far south and Peloponnese Trciniec Culture (probably as a minority bringing around 7%), and to current Albanian speaking regions bringing less than 5% at that period.


*Slavic Haplogroup
*




You see *what you don't understand* is, if say 5% or even 10% came from somewhere else you come up with a claim immediately that all Albanians originate from there (we know that all the Europeans are mixed by level of %)....Therefore claiming that Albanians came from *Carpi* (*AD periods*) is *really funny* because everyone who understands English here and from all the studies know that that is not the case. (especially when studies claims that slavic people are the most recent arrivals in south east Europe)





> I don’t know why you underestimate Dacian and Romanian language,


*I never underestimate* Dacian and Romanian language, i just showed that as per major studies that Albanian is not derived from those languages nor even migrated (as people) from there. 




> and Albanian loans from this language, and where you have evidence that Albanian is older than Dacian,


Well you have seen that from so many studies that Albanian and ancient greek Language is older than Dacian. And we know that Albanian and ancient Greek language have *old archaic* where Dacian or Romanian doesn't. 





> I showed that Albanian borrowed a lot of words from Romanian, and I will give more


Borrowing (as all the languages borrow from one another) from Romanian/ Dacian (current Moldova) does not mean language came from there, neither migration came from there (as you claim). i don't know what you intention is with that. 
There are thousands of Albanian words and they have the borrowings from Latin, because of course smaller populations will always borrow from larger ones (even if they are geographically far). Then Illyrian, ancient greek loans, Gothic loans etc....

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## Garrick

> We have some words which are proven to be Illyrian but for few of them we know the meaning. I like one of those words: Illyrian sika-English knife -Albanian thika . Sicar-ius, in Albanian Thikar or thikar-as .


Boring (it is not offense), how many time I hear/see it (you don’t want my holiday).

According experts maybe Messapic language is the closest to Illyrian. Of course some influences were from Liburnian, Celtic, Greek, Thracian , Latin etc.

There are some Illyrian words:

(Illyrian) *abeis* = (Eng.) *snakes*
(Latin) *angius*; (Lith.) *angis*; (Schytian) *ahis*; (Arm.) *auj*; (Tocharian) *auk*
(Nothing to do with Albanian = gjarpër, gjarpërinjtë)

(Illyrian) *Bagaron*, (Eng.) *warm*
(Phyrgian) *bekos* = bread; (Irish) *goba* = blacksmith; (Greek) *phogein* = to roast; (Arm.) *Bots* = flame
(Nothing to do with Albanian = ngrohtë)

(Illyrian) *deuádai*, (Eng.) *satyr, satyrs*
(Schytian) *dhūnoti* = he shakes, (Greek) *thýein* = to rage, seethe; (Old English) *dwæs* = , foolish; (Lith.) *dvesiù* = to perish, die (animals); (Hittite) *tuhhai* = to gasp; (Serbian) *dvodelan* (two words: dva deo) = two piece.
(Nothing to do with Albanian = njeri i shthurur)
(Albanian demon is from Romanian demon, Orygin: Latin daemon)

(Illyrian) *sabaia*, *sabaium*, *sabaius*, (Eng.) a type of beer
(Latin) *sapere* = to taste, (Schytian) *sabar* = sap, juice, nektar, (Avest.) *višāpa* = having poisonous juices; (Old Church Slavonic) *svept**ǔ* = bee's honey 
(Nothing to do with Albanian birrë = beer; shijoj = taste; lëng = juice etc.)

Toponyms, hydronyms, anthroponyms, etc.:

(Illyrian) *Bindus* = (Eng.) *river god*; 
(Old Irish) *banne* = drop; (Scythian) *bindú, vindú* = drops, gob, spot 

(Illyrian) *Bulsinus* = Büžanim hill
(IE) *bhl.kos*; (Eng) *balk*; (Middle Irish) *blog* = piece, fragment, (Greek) *phálanx* = trunk, log, (Lith.) *balžiena* = crossbar; (Serbian) *bla**ž**ína* = roof beam; (Schytian) *bhuríjāu* = cart arms;

(Illyrian) *Tergitio* = (Eng.) *merchant*;
(Old Church Slavonic) *trĭgĭ*; (Serbian) *trg* = market; (Old Russian) *t**ǔ**rg**ǔ* = market, (Latvian) *tirgus* 

(Illyrian) *Tómaros*, mountain in Eastern Pindus
(Old Irish) *temel* = darkness; (Middle Irish) *teimen* = dark grey; (Lat.) *tenebrae* = darkness, (Schytian) *tamas* = darkness, (Old Church Slavonic) *tima* = darkness; (Serbian) *tama* = darkness;


Someone can see some Serbian words similar to Illyrian. Should I say that Illyrian is forerunner of Serbian? No.

But Illyrian words nothing to do with Albanian. Does someone want yet?

Link Illyrian with Albanian is obsolete. Illyrian and Albian are different. They are not even in the same group: *Illyrian* is* Centum*, but Albanian is Satem.

...
*Albanian borrowed thousands words from Romanian*. Albanians probably lived in Dacian homeland or in neighborhood and it is logical why so many words in Albanian are Romanian.

For example Serbian borrowed much less words from Greek, but it gives a wealth of language and allows to people to better understand the concepts that would be harder expressed that these Greek words didn’t enter in Serbian, so it is same for words from another languages.

...
*Albanian tribes* were in *Dacia and/or neighborhood*. Greek and Roman intellectuals *all tribes Eastern from Dacians named as Schytians*, but we know that term *Schytians* addressed a lot of tribes which were not the same origin. It is believed that Schytians are *Iranian people* but not all tribes were Iranian origin. There were tribes of *Turkish* origin, and *nonIranian tribes with Caucasus and near*.

Romanian experts claimed that tribes *Karpi* and *Costoboci* came to today's Albania. It is possible that tribes (or some others) were not Dacian nor Scithyans of Iranian origin but *Albanian*.

History notices invading *Costoboci to Greece in 2nd century*. Greek intellectuals noticed that Costoboci were very aggressive, and that local Greek inhabitants had to give hard resist to these barbarian invaders how these Greeks called them.

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## Garrick

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;459783]


> Garrick[/B];459739] 
> 
> Of course, *i never said all E-V13 is Albanian*. They are *descend from E-V13* (highest in the world) and that confirms (genetically) *that at least half* of them *never moved from Carpi Moldovia* or Romania as you claim (because as shown E-V13 never moved from north to south)....Also never moved from east Anatolia/Caucus (see *Maciamo* maps).


From where you know it? Direction of moving *Caucasus, Stepes, Carpathians, Balkan* is very possible. And all is land (not sea, not needs for boats). 




> I1 and I2a (15 %) *confirms* it never came from those areas.
> *R1b (19%)* came from Dorians from *Hallstat Culture* at around 3,000 ybp (*confirms* it never came from those areas)
> *J1 (5%)* might have came from central Anatolia (not Caucus) probably 4,000 ybp
> *J2 (14%)* might have came from central Anatolia (not Caucus) probably 3,000 ybp
> *R1a (7.5%)* This might be those* slavic peoples* and the *most recent newcomers* (1,000 ybp), surelly from much northers areas, it could be Carpi or today Poland.
> Although R1a according to Maciamo came 4,000 ybp as (non yet slavic) to Mycenaean Greece far south and Peloponnese Trciniec Culture (probably as a minority bringing around 7%), and to current Albanian speaking regions bringing less than 5% at that period.


Speculations or no, it is not much important for the thread. This is important moving of speakers Proto Albanians (probably carriers R1b ht35 and E-V13, maybe still some haplogroups participated but it is enough) from Caucasus and near to Southern Ukraine/Moldavia/Romania. What's interesting, Ancient Armenians had R1b and E1b!

...



> You see *what you don't understand* is, if say 5% or even 10% came from somewhere else you come up with a claim immediately that all Albanians originate from there (we know that all the Europeans are mixed by level of %)....Therefore claiming that Albanians came from *Carpi* (*AD periods*) is *really funny* because everyone who understands English here and from all the studies know that that is not the case. (especially when studies claims that slavic people are the most recent arrivals in south east Europe)


You make mistake. I used only Romanian and nonSlavic sources, I have friends who give me data. I didn't use Slavic sources, I don't know that sources.

Serious scientists wrote about coming Carpi tribe (and Costoboci) from Romania/Moldavia to Albania. I would not underestimate these scientists.




> Borrowing (as all the languages borrow from one another) from Romanian/ Dacian (current Moldova) does not mean language came from there, neither migration came from there (as you claim). i don't know what you intention is with that.


Only intention is human and intellectual curiosity. I like to know movements of populations from old times to today. Once haplogroup E-V13 was much numerous in Near East/Anatolia/Caucasus than today. What's happened, where these carriers went is very interesting. Of course once I carriers hold the Balkans and almost all Europe. Haplogroup G, too. Etc. For me, changes are interesting, and causes. For example for me it is very interesting model of New Zealand scientists, they bring some new, modern in science. And I like to know about extincted languages and haplogruop carriers. For example, E-V13 carriers surely spoke Afro Asiatic languages, but these languages are extinct. Maybe in any language including Albanian some old words from these extinct languages survived. It is same story for languages of I (I1, I2) carriers. They surely had their languages (not IE!) but the languages extinct. I like intellectual challenges and lot of things, but unfortunately the day is 24 h, not 48 h.

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## Arame

This stuff is so complicated.
I will say my opinion based on the Armenian example. 
I think Albanians should search their origin of IE in the R1b-ht35. Because it is starting to become clear that isolates like Armenian, Greek and Albanian are related to this R1b distribution. 
E-V13 is not relevant to the IE question. E-V13 is substratic. Maybe Greeks have a second Dorianic layer related to R1a that makes them close to Iranic languages.
The Armenians have substratic words with Greek but also with Albanian. Most certainly these substratic words are related to E-V13 and G2a. 

You can take a look at this substratic words here. Armenian, Greek, Albanian and Latin

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-origin/page2

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## Angela

> This stuff is so complicated.
> I will say my opinion based on the Armenian example. 
> I think Albanians should search their origin of IE in the R1b-ht35. Because it is starting to become clear that isolates like Armenian, Greek and Albanian are related to this R1b distribution. 
> E-V13 is not relevant to the IE question. E-V13 is substratic. Maybe Greeks have a second Dorianic layer related to R1a that makes them close to Iranic languages.
> The Armenians have substratic words with Greek but also with Albanian. Most certainly these substratic words are related to E-V13 and G2a. 
> 
> You can take a look at this substratic words here. Armenian, Greek, Albanian and Latin
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-origin/page2



Thanks Arame, that makes a lot of sense.

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## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=[B]Garrick[/B];459848]




> From where you know it (*regarding E-V13*)? Direction of moving *Caucasus, Stepes, Carpathians, Balkan* is very possible. And all is land (not sea, not needs for boats).


Are you reading the whole text what i write ? (it seems you only read two three words and start with your own opinion)
please let me know *if you want to learn further* or just want to be fixed (as you would just *waste my time*)

*Maciamo* *confirms* that E-V13 *never moved from north to south* and neither from Baltic nor Caucus nor even straight from Anatolia.
He confirms that E-V13 was indigenous at least since 8,000 ybo at south east Europe especially south Greece and Peloponnese

Albanians descend from that (*highest % in the World*) how can they come from Carpi (Moldovia Area)?


So Even if they are not descend from Pelazgian, its sure they descend (majority) from the south east Europe since Early Neolithic




*By 6,000 ybp* all *Albanian speaking* regions and Greek speaking regions majority E-V13, *including current Serbia mid to south* (excludes Bulgaria and Romania)......*Confirming* that E-V13 spread from south (*supporting* that Albanians E-V13 never migrated from Carpi Moldovia)



By 5,000 ybp Helladic Greece *majority E-V13*....even *Vinca Culture* majority *E-V13*

----------


## Rethel

> indigenous NATIVE at least since 8,000 ybo



Don't you see Nameless, that this is an oxymoron? :Rolleyes:

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## noUseForAname

> This stuff is so complicated.
> I will say my opinion based on the Armenian example. 
> I think Albanians should search their origin of IE in the R1b-ht35. Because it is starting to become clear that isolates like Armenian, Greek and Albanian are related to this R1b distribution. 
> E-V13 is not relevant to the IE question. E-V13 is substratic. Maybe Greeks have a second Dorianic layer related to R1a that makes them close to Iranic languages.
> The Armenians have substratic words with Greek but also with Albanian. Most certainly these substratic words are related to E-V13 and G2a. 
> 
> You can take a look at this substratic words here. Armenian, Greek, Albanian and Latin
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n-origin/page2



Yes (looks like it), although distribution of language does not mean that all of the migration came with it.

Maciamo argues that *Hittite* (central Anatolia) were mostly R1b and they spoke EI, it is consistent with the most studies that Albanian separated from Anatolian branch 5,000 or 3,000 ybp.
We know Hittites were around 4,000, so *its very likely* Albanian *language* derived from R1b Hittites and formed the language in the south east Europe 3,500 ybp.

That might mean also that R1b grew since 4,000 ybp at current Albanians to 19%, majority seem to be descend from south east Europe since 7,000 from E-V13 (over 40%)

My *supposition* is that Albanian *genetically* descend from south east Europe since around *6,000* ybp.
E-V13 (over 40%) and another I and Ie2 by 15% = 55%
R1b Hittite came around *4,000* ybp, *bringing EI* = 19%
Then J2 came (some from Hittite J2) around 3,000 ybp = 19%
R1a - M458 (slavic tribes) came around 1,000 ybp = 7%


That is why in this thread the intention is to link weather before the Greek inhabitants in the south east Europe Pelazgians or other tribes were mostly E-V13 genetically.
It is interesting that Maciamo gives *Vinca Culture* 6,000 ybp E-V13 as a majority, it might be that PElazgians mostly E-V13 and other tribes with major E-V13 spread from south current Greece forming Vinca Culture 6,000 years ago.

----------


## Garrick

> We know Hittites were around 4,000, so *its very likely* Albanian *language* derived from R1b Hittites and formed the language in the south east Europe 3,500 ybp.


In Hittite language some features of IE language lack. Hittite language technically is not Proto IE, but sister language Proto IE.

If your hypothesis is accurate it means that Albanian is not utterly IE.

But Albanian is IE.

And you can see where New Zealand scientists which put it:



Of course, and lot of other classifications of IE exist.

But nowhere Albanian and Hittite make same branch.

According it your hypothesis is not accurate.





> It is interesting that Maciamo gives *Vinca Culture* 6,000 ybp E-V13 as a majority, it might be that PElazgians mostly E-V13 and other tribes with major E-V13 spread from south current Greece forming Vinca Culture 6,000 years ago.


What to do Vinca culture with Albanians?

We do not know which haplogroups people of Vinca culture had. But anyway, you keep trying this nonsense, that all E-V13 in the world, in history and now, is connected with Albanians.

No, it is big foolishness.

You can see E1b1b in Europe and Turkey:

Austria 8% (339.000 males)
Belarus 4% (189.320)
Belgium 5% (270.990)
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12% (232.290)
Bulgaria 23.5% (846.650)
Croatia 10% (214.530)
Czech 6% (316.860)
Cyprus 20% (83.890)
Denmark 2.5% (71.110)
England 2% (530.120)
Estonia 2.5% (16.410)
Finland 0.5% (13.600)
France 7.5% (2.486.930)
Germany 5.5% (2.229.800)
Greece 21% (1.161.600)
Hungary 8% (395.090)
Latvia 0.5% (4.950)
Lithuania 1% (14.540)
Macedonia FYROM 21.5% (136.290 withot Albanians)
Malta 9% (19.040)
Moldavia 13% (231.370)
Montenegro 27% (83.880)
Netherlands 3.5% (296.080)
Norway 1% (25.530)
Poland 3.5% (670.690)
Portugal 14% (739.350)
Romania 15% (1.509.120)
Russia 2.5% (1.753.380)
Scotland 1.5% (39.720)
Serbia 18% (639.620)
Slovakia 6.5% (176.020)
Slovenia 5% (51.530)
Spain 7% (1.627.770)
Sweden 3% (146.210)
Switzerland 7.5% (300.790)
Turkey 11% (4.273.270)
Ukraine 5.5% (1.249.220)
Wales 4% (62.260)

Albania 27.5% (389.360)
Kosovo (Albanians) 47.5% (372.570)
Macedonia (Albanians) 32.4% (82.470)

Total Europe + Turkey = 24.293.220
Total Albanians = 844.400

%E1b1b Albanians in whole Europe + Turkey = 3.48%

For Europeans/Turks and Albanians absolute amonunts would be lower if we take E-V13 but %Albanians in Europe would be similar (perhaps a little higher but it do not change anything).

(And percent was even lesser that we took in amount population of Caucasus, Lebanon, Syria etc.)

Only 3.48% E1b1b in Europe plus Turkey are Albanians but you claim that all about E1b1b carriers in history Europe/Turkey from 10.000 years before and earlier to today is linked with these 3.48%.

----------


## noUseForAname

> In Hittite language......



Can you please reply* to your post i wrote above* (#354)*?*......please don't interfere when i wrote to other people's post....

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;459953]




> And you can see where New Zealand scientists which put it:


For the 7th time...you have *misrepresented* the whole study completely by taking the *FAKE* picture (from some other study) 

This is the *real PICTURE* from the stydy of Atkinson, New Zeland....

_1: Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic_ 
_2: Indic/Iranic split 4,600 years ago (own separate branch),_ Albanian split 6,000 years ago (own separate branch). Colours show separate branches (read the whole source in details please) 
3: On the other side Greek and Armenian split 6,800 years ago (therefore own Branch), although it mentions Greek only 800 years old (probably this is only for the modern Greek and not ancient Greek). And Albanian 600 years old (probably this is only for a modern Albanian) 
4: The main language groupings are colourcoded. Branch lengths are proportional to the inferred maximum-likelihood estimates ofevolutionary change per cognate....
5: For example *Italic also includes the French/Iberian subgroup, So Italic main branch and subgroups are French/Iberian.
6: So the main groups branches (*from older to recent*) are: *Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian*, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....

Now my question to you is: Why the study then shows Albanian as its own Main branch?
Did you even read the source or you just found that pic and wanted to be one sided no matter what?*

*

https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf




> What to do Vinca culture with Albanians?
> you keep trying this nonsense, that all E-V13 in the world, in history and now, is connected with Albanians


(who said about Albanians) i think you are *not understanding English* sufficiently 
*Maciamo* argues that E-V13 is indigenous from South Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp...and inhabitants of Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp where *majority E-V13* and they came there from South Greece/Peloponnese.





> No, it is big foolishness.


Well, You say that to Maciamo buddy....

----------


## Arame

noUseforAname

I think the Hittite branch is to early. Yes probably it was R1b but most certainly it was from different branch. I think Albanian branch will be under R1b-Z2103. The same as Armenians and Greeks.
How much Albanians have this specific subclade? Is there any information about that?

----------


## Garrick

> Can you please reply* to your post i wrote above* (#354)*?*......please don't interfere when i wrote to other people's post....


It doesn't matter. This is a free forum, everything what someone write, members of forum can replicate. You can answer all my posts, what does it matter whether I wrote you or other people, it is your right as member of forum.




> Well, You say that to Maciamo buddy....


Why do you impute? Does not make sense.




> (who said about Albanians) i think you are *not understanding English* sufficiently
> *Maciamo* argues that E-V13 is indigenous from South Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp...and inhabitants of Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp where *majority E-V13* and they came there from South Greece/Peloponnese.


You don't understand.

*E-V13 carriers from Peloponesse, 6000 years Before Christ, have nothing with today's Albanians*.

Stop that all E-V13 in history and today connect with Albanians, it is nonsense.
*...*

You confused because mix what Serbs in the jargon say grandmothers and frogs.

And I told you that only 3.48% E1b1b carriers in Europe and Turkey today are Albanians.

You can see Serbs in Serbia, about 639.620 males are E-V13 carriers, in Republic of Serbian (Bosnia and Herzegovina) 176.000 males are E-V13 carriers. If we take in account Serbs in Montenegro, Croatia, etc in the Balkans *about 840.000 or more Serbian males are E-V13 carriers*.

*About 844.400 Albanians in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers* (if we are precise, it is small lower because other E subclades, but it doesn't change much this amount).

*Practically almost same Serbian and Albanian males in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers*. Hm, if we take your logic. If in Vinca were E-V13 carriers, and because Vinca is in heart of Serbia, todays E-V13 carriers in Serbia are Vinca's descendants, Serbs are Vinca's descendants.

And we can write more. Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia was E-V13 carrier. Do you love Milosevic because he belonged to this haplogroup?

Can you see how thinking that all E-V13 carriers are linked with Albanian is *grotesque*.

...
And what do you think of this assertion (one member of this forum):

*No modern population can claim that their ethnogenesis has formed during the Bronze Age*.

----------


## noUseForAname

> noUseforAname
> 
> I think the Hittite branch is to early. Yes probably it was R1b but most certainly it was from different branch. I think Albanian branch will be under R1b-Z2103. The same as Armenians and Greeks.
> How much Albanians have this specific subclade? Is there any information about that?



I have found just few Clans, and from those looks like the major group is *L23,* however *Clans* (like one surname) are identified with a large group from a certain region.

Maciamo - R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../about/results




*Population*
*--------------------------*
*

Albanians(Kosovar)*
*Language*
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b
-------


*21.10*
R1a
-------


4.42
I 
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
*E-V13*
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
*R*eference 
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]















*Albanians*
IE (Albanian)
55
*18.2*
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
27.5
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;460043]



> It doesn't matter. This is a free forum, everything what someone write, members of forum can replicate. You can answer all my posts, what does it matter whether I wrote you or other people, it is your right as member of forum.


Yes of course you can reply anywhere, but you are rather leaving you own posts unanswered, so *can you answer the previous post* (multi quotes by multi quotes?)....(#354......#344......#341.......#336)





> You don't understand.
> *E-V13 carriers from Peloponesse, 6000 years Before Christ, have nothing with today's Albanians*.
> Stop that all E-V13 in history and today connect with Albanians, it is nonsense.


_(who said all E-V13 connect with Albanians) Don't pre concept (prejudge) please..._Maciamo argues that E-V13 is indigenous from South Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp...and inhabitants of Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp where majority E-V13 and they came there from South Greece/Peloponnese.

*Albanians* are a direct descend from E-V13, and *as per population* (Albanian speaking regions) they have the *highest E-V13* in the world.




> You can see Serbs in Serbia, about 639.620 males are E-V13 carriers, in Republic of Serbian (Bosnia and Herzegovina) 176.000 males are E-V13 carriers. If we take in account Serbs in Montenegro, Croatia, etc in the Balkans *about 840.000 or more Serbian males are E-V13 carriers*.
> *Practically almost same Serbian and Albanian males in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers*. Hm, if we take your logic. If in Vinca were E-V13 carriers, and because Vinca is in heart of Serbia, todays E-V13 carriers in Serbia are Vinca's descendants, Serbs are Vinca's descendants.



I am not sure if you are taking into the account the spread of E-V13 (from south) and how there were migrations at all times in low mid to high percentages. Having the roots from around current Albanian/Greek speaking regions since 8,000 ybp, and the area is not small, it makes sense since 8,000 it expanded from there to all directions and reached higher numbers outside (Albanian/Greek), because if they expand and expand without spreading from their current locations (is rather not possible) 

Maciami culture maps explains pretty much, south Greece/Peleponesse the roots of E-V13 9,000 ybp, spread from there probably by very low numbers all directions. they reached as a majority Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp, black and Grey Pottery and Neolithic Greece. that is today (borders) Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Mid to south Serbia. Still as a majority by 4,500 expanded to West Bulgaria. Expanded from these areas to all the Europe as a minority.

Then a big shift came at around 4,000 ybp. Curent Serbia no more as a majority of E-V13, (probably majority pushed back to south east and some might even expanded all directions by low numbers, plus others might have came in bigger numbers )
however Maciamo notes Illyria very high (by 4,000) in E-V13 and Ancient Macedonia even higher (see maps), Ancient Macedonia with current parts of mid/north Greece Thessaly, Albania and Kosovo.

We can say that *18%* of current *all Serbs* are a descend from (from E-V13) either parts of mid to south Serbia Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp, or current Albania Kosovo Macedonia 7,000 ybp, or South Greece/Peloponnese 8,000 ybp.......whatever makes you happy... 





> And we can write more. Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia was E-V13 carrier. Do you love Milosevic because he belonged to this haplogroup?


No political discussions please, we all know who Milosevic is and what he has done to Bosnians, Croatians and Albanians.

----------


## noUseForAname

> noUseforAname
> I think the Hittite branch is to early. Yes probably it was R1b but most certainly it was from different branch. I think Albanian branch will be under R1b-Z2103. The same as Armenians and Greeks.
> How much Albanians have this specific subclade? Is there any information about that?


Maciamo notes that R1b L23 might be a Hittite group.....And we see that it's *especially high at Albanian speaking* regions (*L23*), personally i didn't know L23 is that old around 4,000 ybp, already there.....he gives some possibilities of *Hittites coming from Balkans* to Anatolia....If first hypotheses is correct then L23 of Balkans is around 5,000 ybp older than Hittities (it might be as a post-Yamna expansion)


*R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)*

Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians.

 


The *Hittites* (c. 2000-1178 BCE) were the first Indo-Europeans to defy (and defeat) the mighty Mesopotamian and Egyptian empires. There are two hypotheses regarding the origins of the Hittites. *The first is that they came from the eastern Balkans and invaded Anatolia* by crossing the Bosphorus. That would mean that they *belonged either to the L23* or the Z2103 subclade*. The other plausible scenario is that they were an offshoot of the late Maykop culture, and that they crossed the Caucasus to conquer the Hattian kingdom (perhaps after being displaced from the North Caucasus by the R1a people of the Catacomb culture). In that case the Hittites might have belonged to the R1b-M269* or the R1b-M73 subclade. *The first hypothesis has the advantage of having a single nucleus, the Balkans, as the post-Yamna expansion of all Indo-European R1b*. The Maykop hypothesis, on the other hand, would explain why the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Palaic) is so archaic compared to other Indo-European languages, which would have originated in Yamna rather than Maykop.There is substantial archaeological and linguistic evidence that *Troy* was an Indo-European city associated with the steppe culture and haplogroup R1b. The Trojans were Luwian speakers related to the Hittites (hence Indo-European), with attested cultural ties to the culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The first city of Troy dates back to 3000 BCE, right in the middle of the Maykop period. Troy might have been founded by Maykop people as a colony securing the trade routes between the Black Sea and the Aegean. The founding of Troy happens to coincide exactly with the time the first galleys were made. Considering the early foundation of Troy, the most likely of the two Indo-European paternal haplogroups would be R1b-M269 or L23.

The *Phrygians* and the *Proto-Armenians* are two other Indo-European tribes *stemming from the Balkans*. Both appear to have migrated to Anatolia around 1200 BCE, during the 'great upheavals' of the Eastern Mediterranean (see below). The Phrygians (or Bryges) founded a kingdom (1200-700 BCE) in west central Anatolia, taking over most of the crumbling Hittite Empire. The Armenians crossed all Anatolia until Lake Van and settled in the Armenian Highlands. Nowadays 30% of Armenian belong to haplogroup R1b, the vast majority to the *L23 subclade* (=> see The Indo-European migrations to Armenia).Most of the R1b found in *Greece* today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. *L23 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia* during the *Dorian invasion* (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (M269 or L23) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to the Catacomb culture and theSeima-Turbino phenomenon of the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a1a tribe.Greek and Anatolian S116 and some S28 lineages could be attributed to the La Tène Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BCE. The Romans also certainly brought S28 lineages (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), and probably also the Venetians later on, notably on the islands. Older clades of R1b, such as P25 and V88, are only a small minority and would have come along E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Middle East.

The great upheavals circa 1200 BCE

1200 BCE was a turning point in European and Near-Eastern history. In Central Europe, the Urnfield culture evolved into the Hallstatt culture, traditionally associated with the classical Celtic civilization, which was to have a crucial influence on the development of ancient Rome. In Italy, the Terramare culture comes to and end with the Italo-Celtic invasions. In the Pontic steppes, the Srubna culture let place to the Cimmerians, a nomadic people speaking an Iranian or Thracian language. The Iron-age Colchian culture (1200-600 BCE) starts in the North Caucasus region. Its further expansion to the south of the Caucasus correspond to the first historical mentions of the Proto-Armenian branch of Indo-European languages (circa 1200 BCE). In the central Levant the Phoenicians start establishing themselves as significant maritime powers and building their commercial empire around the southern Mediterranean.But the most important event of the period was incontestably the destruction of the Near-Eastern civilizations, possibly by the Sea Peoples. The great catastrophe that ravaged the whole Eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Egypt circa 1200 BCE is a subject that remains controversial. The identity of the Sea Peoples has been the object of numerous speculations. What is certain is that all the palace-based societies in the Near-East were abruptly brought to an end by tremendous acts of destruction, pillage and razing of cities. The most common explanation is that the region was invaded by technologically advanced warriors from the north, probably Indo-Europeans descended from the steppes via the Balkans.The Hittite capital Hattusa was destroyed in 1200 BCE, and by 1160 BCE the empire had collapsed, probably under the pressure of the Phrygians and the Armenians coming from the Balkans. The Mycenaean cities were ravaged and abandoned throughout the 12th century BCE, leading to the eventual collapse of Mycenaean civilization by 1100 BCE. The kingdom of Ugarit in Syria was annihilated and its capital never resettled. Other cities in the Levant, Cyprus and Crete were burned and left abandoned for many generations. The Egyptians had to repel assaults from the Philistinesfrom the East and the Libyans from the West - two tribes of supposed Indo-European origin. The Lybians were accompanied by mercenaries from northern lands (the Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden and Shekelesh), whose origin is uncertain, but has been placed in Anatolia, Greece and/or southern Italy.The devastation of Greece followed the legendary Trojan War (1194-1187 BCE). It has been postulated that theDorians, an Indo-European people from the Balkans (probably coming from modern Bulgaria or Macedonia), invaded a weakened Mycenaean Greece after the Trojan War, and finally settled in Greece as one of the three major ethnic groups. The Dorian regions of classical Greece, where Doric dialects were spoken, were essentially the southern and eastern Peloponnese, Crete and Rhodes, which is also the part of Greece with the highest percentage of R1b-L23.Another hypothesis is that the migration of the Illyrians from north-east Europe to the Balkans displaced previous Indo-European tribes, namely the Dorians to Greece, the Phrygians to north-western Anatolia and the Libu to Libya (after a failed attempt to conquer the Nile Delta in Egypt). The Philistines, perhaps displaced from Anatolia, finally settled in Palestine around 1200 BCE, unable to enter Egypt.

----------


## Garrick

> We can say that *18%* of current *all Serbs* are a descend from (from E-V13) either parts of mid to south Serbia Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp, or current Albania Kosovo Macedonia 7,000 ybp, or South Greece/Peloponnese 8,000 ybp.......whatever makes you happy...


Neither satisfied or dissatisfied. Only as you know it is pointless to connect 3.48% population Albanians with all E-V13 in the world before 10000 years and today. 

All those wonderful pictures whose Maciamo put about ancient Europe, haplogroups G, I, E etc. nothing to do with today Albanians.

Beginnings of the Albanian language are in eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, and probably carriers of R1b ht35 haplogroup, are creators this language, as for Armenian language, not E-V13 carriers. In comparing with Proto Armenian, speakers of Proto Albanian lived close to people who spoked Iranian languages, and therefore even in modern Albanian there are words from Western (Anatolian) and Northern (Caucasus) Iranian languages. 

If E-V13 carriers were creators of Albanian, this language today was AfroAsiatic not IE.

I tried to find connection Armenian and Albanian with Hittite but the difference is insurmountable. Hittite language for example has no distinction between masculine and feminine grammatical gender. According some luinguists Hittite language is not doughter language to Proto Indo European, but sister language to PIE. In any case Hittite split from PIE very early. In classifications IE there are no link Hittite with Armenian and Albanian. They are very very far.

----------


## noUseForAname

> [QUOTE
> Some experts considered tribe of *Carpi* as Albanians. And *Costoboci* tribe, too. 
> In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.


This is why Albanians have no links (lowest %) with either Carpathian's Dacians or Thracians....*We should speak by percentages* because we are all mixed....

Maciamo:
*The Thracians, Dacians 
*According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups.A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the *Carpathians* and is thought to have *migrated* to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE, this is why Bosnia Croatia Serbia have very high I2a following R1a....

So you can see major % in *Dacians and Thracians* are R1a 30% and I2a 30%, these groups have the the *lowest % especially at Albanians* 

Albanian speaking regions have around 7.5% of R1a and 10% I2a1 (descend from Germany Scandinavia so irrelevant here and I2a2 is that of Carpathians)......I1 is around 5% (I1 Scandinavia is irrelevant here)

So we have only R1a with 7.5% that might have came from Carpathian's


Therefore theories about Albanians descending from Dacians or Thracia would not make much sense.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;460133]



> Neither satisfied or dissatisfied.


To make it more precise and from the thread above *Serbians* looks like Descend by the following (in %):

Older to newer
18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (8,000 ybp)
5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
48% I2a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp - *Majority
*15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp
5% J 

So around *65%* of current* Serbs* genetically descend from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) and they came to current Serbia 3,000 ybp (and of course at those periods there were no such name as Serbs)





> Beginnings of the Albanian language are in eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, and probably carriers of R1b ht35 haplogroup, are creators this language, as for Armenian language, not E-V13 carriers. In comparing with Proto Armenian, speakers of Proto Albanian lived close to people who spoked Iranian languages, and therefore even in modern Albanian there are words from Western (Anatolian) and Northern (Caucasus) Iranian languages.


You are not differentiating the language spread with genetics....see the post above from Maciamo, Armenians originate from Balkans and Hittities R1b L23 too might originated from Balkans, so if Albanian language derived from R1b L23 it is very old already in balkans 5,000 ybp Albania/Macedonia (read above there are lots of details) #364 post

E-V13 is different story, all the language spread does not bring the all genetics with it (thats why i told you you should talk in percentages)

----------


## Arame

If someone speak about genetic nativity, both Albanians and Serbs, Croats and even Bulgarians are native since Neolithic. Only R1b and R1a could come later. During Bronze Age. If we go further in the past then E-V13 is from Anatolia. But it is most probably a Neolithic time and has no connection to this linguistic issues. Greeks also have E-V13. Armenians also have some E-V13 (6-7%).

Maciamo's texts are great but there are some outdated information in them. The Armenian R1b didn't came after 1200BC. We already know that it is not correct. 
So I think the main problem is now to understand the origin of Albanian R1b. Also to understand the place of origin Proto-Slavic. I think it must be near North of Balkans because of some cognates with Paleo-Balkanic languages.

The Phrygian language is not related to Armenian.
Everybody can see this himself. It is a Greek like language with some connections to Celtic and Slavic languages.
http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Phrygian

----------


## Sile

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;460137]


> To make it more precise and from the thread above *Serbians* looks like Descend by the following (in %):
> 
> Older to newer
> 18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
> 5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
> 48% I2a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp - *Majority
> *15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp
> 5% J 
> 
> ...


the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...530637007P.pdf

when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

----------


## Diurpaneus

From Edi Shukriu's "Prehistory and Antique History of Kosova"(I can't find it anymore,so I'll copy-paste it) :

"The integration processes went on during the Bronze Age (2100 – 1200), relying on mine and trade economy, along with the agricultural and farming ones. The small number of dug localities of Bronze Age enables only general conclusions on the existence of settlements on lower hills (Vlashnjë, Teneshdoll) and on the plain (Ljushtë, Qëndresan/Gllarevë, Glladnicë, Nasalë/Nosalë, Berrnicë); of tumular necropolises of the mid Bronze Age (Rugovë, Ujz, Përçetë/Përçevë) and of field necropolises with urns (Berrnicë, Grashticë) in the transition from Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The findings in Kosova proved commercial links with the developed Mycenaean culture, during the mid Bronze Age (XVI-XV centuries) and this heralds the possibility of earlier contacts and influences with Mediterranean civilizations."


"The settlements of Proto-Dardanian stage are located on elevated terraces near rivers (Kllokot, Nasalë, Fafos II), whilst in the Dardanian stage they were located on higher hills. The Dardanian stage settlements are multilayered, which is an expression of empowerment of Dardanians and of their sustainable economic resources (Upper Gadime, Hisar and Kasterc of Suharekë, Veletin, Big Bardh, Cernicë, Dubofc, Vlashnjë, Cermnjan, Zatriq, Pidiq, Teneshdoll, Artanë/ Novobërdë etc.). In the Iron Age surrounding earth ramparts mixed with stones were constructed (Kulinë/Teneshdoll) or only stone ramparts (Veletin). Hilly settlements are mainly known by the name gradina and g(r)adisha (Indo-European.: gard, Albanian: gardh=fence).7 In the Pre-Dardanian stage the burying was done also in flat graves with urns – Berrnica culture (Berrnicë, Grashticë), whilst during the Dardanian stage in tumular necropolises, practicing both rituals, the one of cremation and that of coffin-burials (Romajë, Rogovë, Ujz, Shirokë, Dibiçak, Porodime, Përçetë/Përçevë, Bajë of Pejë, Llashtishtë, Gurëz/ Gërlicë, Biti, Moklikë). Tumular necropolises of Kosova belong to the Glasinac complex and are related to tombs of Kukës, Mat and Gllasinac."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac_culture

Brnjica(Bernice),cremation,using cinerary urns=Daco-Moesian culture

Glasinac,inhumation=Illyrian


"The numerous Roman settlements prove about a life dynamics, and about the increase of inhabitants in it, with the settlement of Roman administrators and soldiers. The municipiums like Ulpiana near Prishtina, Municipium DD near Soçanica, Vendenis near Gllamnik, Viciano and Theranda became administrative centres. Near other roads axes larger centres were developed, such as Gradina in the southeast of Pejë and the municipiums at Dersnik of Klinë, Çiflak of Gjakovë and Gushica of Viti."


"The polytheist tradition allowed along the respect of local gods, in special of Dardanian Goddess, god Andindus or of gods related to the cult of horses and the cavalry tradition, also other gods to be appropriated and respected, who came along with the Roman rule. Such were the Roman gods Jupiter, Minerva, Fortune, Mercury, Diane or the others as Mithra, Isida, Serapis and Jupiter Dolihen, Nemezis, Orpheus, Hecate, Asclepius, Hygia or Telesphont. It seems that it belongs to the earlier tradition also the respecting of the Thracian Knight and Danubian Knight, as interpretations of local gods, and of Thracian goddess Zbeltiurdus."


"Local elements bear also the vulgar Latin language and the onomastic, mainly Illyrian, such as the names: Longarus, Bato, Monunius, Etuta, Andia, Andio/Andinus, Annus, Anna, Catulla(?), Cinna, Cito, Dasius/Dassius, Dicco, Epicadus, Epicaris, Mesius/Messa, Nanea, Plannius, Scervidaeus, Sita, Tata/Tatta, Times, Turanis, Turelius, Vanno, Varanus, Vananilla, Varadius).60 Within the onomastic also Thracian names and names present only for the Dardanian territory have been proved, such as Ambia, Blicites, Bubita, Cocaius, Ettela, Maema, Mescena, Mesta, Momonia, Ninis, Passades, Pitta, Romma, Sausa, Utinadus



That's nice:


"The created Dardanian entity, the subjectivity of pre-Roman Dardania and the long resistance against the Romans, made the Dardanians to evade the complete Romanisation and at the same time to appropriate plenty of elements of Roman provincial culture, and, afterwards, of the early Byzantine on"

----------


## Diurpaneus

"The Roman itinerary road Lissus–Naissus–Ratiaria was, as is well-known, a transversal communication across the central Balkans connecting the Adriatic coast and the Danube Basin. Taking into account the maritime route between the Italic port of Brundisium and Lissus, it was the shortest link between the capital of the Empire and the Danubian limes. Namely, the Appian Way led from Rome to Brundisium, and thence ships sailed to the Balkan Peninsula, where an overland route from Lissus continued along the Drim valley and across the highlands of present-day Albania and Serbia (mostly Kosovo and Metohija) to the Niš Basin with the ancient city of Naissus at its centre. From Naissus, the road ran along the Timok river valley, took a northeast turn across Kadibogaz, a pass on Stara Planina (north-western part of the Balkan Mountain range), and ended at Ratiaria, a Roman colony (present-day Archar on the Danube, Bulgaria). In the period of the Empire’s expansion and consolidation of the border on the Danube, the road was predominantly used for military purposes, for the transportation of troops and supplies to the Danubian limes. With the onset of mining activities in Upper Moesia, this important road began to be used for exporting ores and thus assumed economic, i.e. commercial, importance."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...entury.svg.png


http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&...96041959,d.bGg

----------


## Garrick

> the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
> http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...530637007P.pdf
> 
> when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


Sile, yes today is such situation.

But in Middle century was completely different.

You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):

13.000 Serb dwellings
75 Vlach dwellings
46 Albanian dwellings
17 Bulgarian dwellings
5 Greek dwellings
1 Jewish dwelling
1 Croat dwelling

One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...tory_of_Kosovo

In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.

Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. Austrian and other European forces in war Austria-Turkey, reached Skopje, Serbs fought with Austrians and other European Christians against Ottoman Muslims, but Ottomans won, and lot of Serbs had to go to exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...s_of_the_Serbs

...
What we Sile don't know?

We don't know which haplogroups had Serbs in the time when they accounted almost entire population of Kosovo. We don't know haplogroups in the time of Dardania. We don't know haplogroups before Dardania, etc.

We know very little. Today situation is recent and it doesn't reflect situation as it was yesterday, the day before yesterday, or further in the past.

...
And this thread is very hard because we have a little valid data. Existence I or E or other haplogroup does not say much. One my Polish friend once told me, it is nonsense that without precise data trying to find the essence, maybe Slavic population from the North carried E-V13, and maybe domestic population had I or R1a or R1b. Because we can see E-V13: 670,670 in Poland, 1,249,220 in Ukraine (1/3 more than all Albanian males) and even 1,753,380 in Russia (2 x more than all Albanian males).

In other words, always among Slavs existed numerous E-V13 population, and theoreticaly it is possible, that one part of E-V13 carriers came with Slavs.

E-V13 are everywhere, in Slavic countries, in Caucasus, in Romania/Moldavia, in Turkey (over 4 million), even in the Western Europe. If we want know more we must know subclades of E-V13, what the more accurately it is better, we must know spatial distribution E-V13 in the past and by epochs, we should try find extinct languages of E-V13 in past etc.

----------


## Sile

> Sile, yes today is such situation.
> 
> But in Middle century was completely different.
> 
> You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):
> 
> 13.000 Serb dwellings
> 75 Vlach dwellings
> 46 Albanian dwellings
> ...


if you read the paper you will understand that Roman surveyors, Major Roman roads etc went through modern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc etc, so they knew about the ethnicity , language and customs of the peoples in these areas.
- The Roman system of splitting areas of control within the Roman lands was always based on ethnicity ( +custom and language ) , it was done this way to punish all the people who where the same if they revolted.
see map of the splits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardan...th_century.svg

The borders where changed from time to time as the populace changed ( either via migrations within the empire ( force Roman displacements) or refugees from outside of Roman control. 

In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but because it was not diluted there by other markers over time

----------


## Garrick

> if you read the paper you will understand that Roman surveyors, Major Roman roads etc went through modern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc etc, so they knew about the ethnicity , language and customs of the peoples in these areas.
> - The Roman system of splitting areas of control within the Roman lands was always based on ethnicity ( +custom and language ) , it was done this way to punish all the people who where the same if they revolted.
> see map of the splits
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardan...th_century.svg
> 
> The borders where changed from time to time as the populace changed ( either via migrations within the empire ( force Roman displacements) or refugees from outside of Roman control. 
> 
> In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but because it was not diluted there by other markers over time


Sile, I'm not denying but new findings are needed. What's interesting a lot of Serbs from Kosovo are E-V13. Theoretically maybe main Serbian dynasty Nemanjici were E-V13, who knows, nobody. Today 18% Serbs are E-V13, maybe I'm E-V13, when I do test I will say.

I spoke about interesting these one my Polish friend that part of E-V13 to the Balkans arrived with Slavs. It is possible, who know. Romania and Moldavia have numerous E-V13, some Romanian scientists wrote that Carpi and Costoboci are tribes ancestors of Albanians who came from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania,Moldavia to Albania, from 5th century. We don't know a lot. Therefore new researches will give us more complete picture.

----------


## Tomenable

What do you think about R1a M458 in Crete ???

Was this brought to Crete by Slavs, or by Achaeans?

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Sile;460160]




> the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
> http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...530637007P.pdf



It is very likely for the Epicentre of E-V13 to be Ancient Dardani, however at much older times Early Neolithic it looks like it was all over (as majority) in South Greece/Peleponese, current Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. then spread by 6,000 ybp to Vinca Culture mid to south Serbia and west Bulgaria.

It might be that in Mid to south Serbia and West Bulgaria the majority was E-V13 since 6,000 to 4,500, then after that it looks like as Maciamo argues Crapathians (I2a R1a) came in at around 3,000 ybp and therefore untill today we have very high % of I2a and R1a at those regions. 
It could also be that Maciamo argues that CArpathians actually migrated (straight) and found home in Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, and after that probably as a majority they pushed north east again at current Serbia and Bulgaria around 2,000

I mean people always moved around, however if we see the highest percentages E-V13 in certain locations, the roots are: South Greece, Peloponnese, and Kosovo.





> when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani



That might be correct, however what about very high percentages 47% in Peloponnese and South Greece?

----------


## Ike

> In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but *because it was not diluted* there by other markers over time


Dardani population was swept away - first time by Slavs, and second time by Albanians. It was not just diluted, it evaporated.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Arame;460147]I



> Only R1b and R1a could come later. During Bronze Age.


(check above posts) there is a hypothesis that R1b L23 *originated* in current locations of Macedonia Albania west Bulgaria around 5,000 ybp and they might have migrated to Anatolia founding Hittite empire 4,000 ybp, (it was an post-Yamna), and if we go back more L23 came from Maycop Culture

And as per R1a to Balkans, yes it looks like they are the most recent arrivals in the balkans
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555





> If we go further in the past then E-V13 is from Anatolia. But it is most probably a Neolithic time and has no connection to this linguistic issues. Greeks also have E-V13. Armenians also have some E-V13 (6-7%).


As per Maciamo there is no link with E-V13 and Anatolia, (check Maciamo maps) it was at south Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp.

----------


## noUseForAname

> One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...tory_of_Kosovo
> 
> In Ottoman time (*from 17th century*) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.



OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)


*2% Albanians in Kosovo OMG*, no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG. 


*No Serbian propaganda* please....*we talk* here* ONLY dna* and* linguistics* onlyfrom* international* scientific papers 




*Gheg* Albanian language (north Albania and Kosova) is actually older than Tosk Albanian, so Albanians in Kosova are actually more ancient than Albanians in the south. (all studies confirm that)


Maciamo (some Ottomas Sultans had R1a and some J2a, we know Ottomans were majority J2a)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...roup-R1a-or-J2
http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...3292&langid=42


*If Albanians came* *with Ottomans 17 Century* (J2a) how come than Albanians in Kosova have 16% of J2. (also J2 and J1 is clearly much older than ottoman J2a)


Albanians in Kosova have E-V13* 47.5%* highest in the world (*descend from South Greece/Albania* * 8,000* ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have R1b* 21%* with *L23* majority (*descend from Albania, Macedonia 4,000* ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have I1 5.3% (*descend from Scandinavia 7,000* ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have I2a2 2.6% (*descend from Germany, Scandinavia 7,000* ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have R1a 4.4% (*descend from either current north Poland or Carpathian's* Moldavia)

*Population*
*--------------------------*
*

Albanians(Kosovar)*
*Language*
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b
-------


21.10
R1a
-------


4.42
I 
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
*E-V13*
---------


*47.37*
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
*R*eference 
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]


So from all of the worlds location you have picked (the least by%) Ottomans who have J2a and not even J2 or J1?....Are you really believing that?
I don't blame you, i blame Serbian Propaganda who brainwashed their people since their childhood, we saw the latest when Serbian regime conducted ethnic cleansing to Bosnians and Croatians 1992 then following ethnic cleansing to Albanians in Kosovo 1999 (which their were always more than 90% Albanians)....


some more *SCIENCE.....*




Bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that *Albanian* is the red *colour* and sufficiently at the very high percentage in *Balkans* then the others at *2550-4335 years ago.


*



*Angela*
"Slavs" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are newcomers to the Balkans, arriving in the last *1200* years or so. 
http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417




As per Maciamo noting that !2a1 and R1a Descend from Carpathian's current Moldova and North Romania and that it migrated south pretty late, and as per paper above that we show a very late slavic migration from current north east Poland to Serbia then *Serbians* (I2a1 + R1a = 65%) *came not earlier than 1,200 ybp in current Serbia*. 

And as Angela said these kind of people (new arrivals) always tended to show Albanians as more foreign as possible, something like Garrick who went from AD periods, to Caucus AD periods, to Carpathians AD Periods to even Berbers LOLLOL





> In other words, always among Slavs existed numerous E-V13 population, and theoreticaly it is possible, that one part of E-V13 carriers came with Slavs.


E-V13 came with Slavs?....you mean E-V13 came from the north pole LOL




Here you find more info, *Gheg Albanians* were even *a majority at current south Serbia by 1877*, but then pushed more south to current Kosovo
Toplica, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]
January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37] Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37] 
Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...ttoman_Muslims
http://balkanologie.revues.org/265

Slavs crossed the Danube and moved into the Balkans by the 6th century. These migrations weakened the Byzantium Empire sufficiently that Illyrian speaking people, known to their neighbors as Albanians moved eastward from the Adriatic into the Kosovo region of the Balkans. Their language became known as Albanian and their culture became allied with Byzantium after the breakup of the Catholic Church into Eastern and western branches in 1054. Slavs migrating into the Balkans divided into three groups; Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, as is still true today. By the 12th century almost all arable land in the region now known as Northern Albania and Kosovo was in Slavic hands.
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/kosovohistory.html

----------


## Yetos

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;460281]


> It is very likely for the Epicentre of E-V13 to be Ancient Dardani, however at much older times Early Neolithic it looks like it was all over (as majority) in South Greece/Peleponese, current Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. then spread by 6,000 ybp to Vinca Culture mid to south Serbia and west Bulgaria.
> 
> It might be that in Mid to south Serbia and West Bulgaria the majority was E-V13 since 6,000 to 4,500, then after that it looks like as Maciamo argues Crapathians (I2a R1a) came in at around 3,000 ybp and therefore untill today we have very high % of I2a and R1a at those regions. 
> It could also be that Maciamo argues that CArpathians actually migrated (straight) and found home in Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, and after that probably as a majority they pushed north east again at current Serbia and Bulgaria around 2,000
> 
> I mean people always moved around, however if we see the highest percentages E-V13 in certain locations, the roots are: South Greece, Peloponnese, and Kosovo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



plz

the high peaks are there,
but seems by possibilities the roots are in Bulgaria,
yet although in E-V13 we play with cross-checking possibilities,
nothing clear and determing, except 'birth' date

----------


## Милан М.

> Sile, I'm not denying but new findings are needed. What's interesting a lot of Serbs from Kosovo are E-V13. Theoretically maybe main Serbian dynasty Nemanjici were E-V13, who knows, nobody. Today 18% Serbs are E-V13, maybe I'm E-V13, when I do test I will say.
> 
> I spoke about interesting these one my Polish friend that part of E-V13 to the Balkans arrived with Slavs. It is possible, who know. Romania and Moldavia have numerous E-V13, some Romanian scientists wrote that Carpi and Costoboci are tribes ancestors of Albanians who came from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania,Moldavia to Albania, from 5th century. We don't know a lot. Therefore new researches will give us more complete picture.


The thing is that the arival of "Slavs" was never proven,even Marija Gimbutas the author of Kurgan hypothesis,which i consider maybe the most biased in Slavic studies,has said that there is no archeological proves for the migration in the Balkans.And let alone linguistic if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.

----------


## Милан М.

> As per Maciamo noting that !2a1 and R1a Descend from Carpathian's current Moldova and North Romania and that it migrated south pretty late, and as per paper above that we show a very late slavic migration from current north east Poland to Serbia then *Serbians* (I2a1 + R1a = 65%) *came not earlier than 1,200 ybp in current Serbia*. 
> 
> And as Angela said these kind of people (new arrivals) always tended to show Albanians as more foreign as possible, something like Garrick who went from AD periods, to Caucus AD periods, to Carpathians AD Periods to even Berbers LOLLOL
> E-V13 came with Slavs?....you mean E-V13 came from the north pole LOL
> 
> Here you find more info, *Gheg Albanians* were even *a majority at current south Serbia by 1877*, but then pushed more south to current Kosovo
> Toplica, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]
> January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37] Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37] 
> Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]
> ...


Topomyns that you mention show exactly who inhabited that region,even in Albania 50% or more are of Slavic origin regardless you all neighbors change them,Albanians are first mentioned as far 12th century,first alphabet in the 20th century,you should thank the Ottoman Turks and the Muslim faith for which you spread all over the region and on the Christians was made exodus from elsewhere after every rebelion,which 12th century Slavic migration you are talking about,7th century Byzantines armies withdraw from the Balkans,entire was in Slavic dominance,maybe for someone is painful but most of Greece and the Balkans was Slavic speaking until 9th century when Byzantines came back with exception of some coastal cities,bringing people from Asia minor etc,if we didn't had our northern Slavic brethen which have a bit problems finding their origin long ago we could be proclaimed as descendants of Thracians,our language is much more similar unlike Albanian and Illyrians which you claim that have perhaps nothing in common.

----------


## Милан М.

Zdzisław Skork Polish archeologist writes:
At the time of the Roman Empire, that is, until the mid 5th century, nobody had heard of them. When the Western Empire suddenly collapsed under the siege of German barbarians, they emerged from the dark abyss of Balkan provinces.The Byzantines describe them as people with red hair, but at times also black, as well as a color very similar to the ripe crops of June. A rather tall, but also skinny people, with an audacious gaze.These people wanted to survive in a situation of total threat, and they found a way for this. Survivors typical of a time when nothing was certain and everything was potentially a threat to life,Florin Curta archeologist South-East Europe(Balkans) in research on ancient Slavs, states they are a product of Byzantine intelligentsia,and the product of the fortification of Danube limes and the inflation within the empire, who blended all tribes attacking their provinces into one. According to Curta, it was impossible for the Byzantines to study these societies in more detail, and they invented one word Sclavenes.

----------


## Garrick

> To noUseForAname
> 
> 
> plz
> 
> the high peaks are there,
> but seems by possibilities the roots are in Bulgaria,
> yet although in E-V13 we play with cross-checking possibilities,
> nothing clear and determing, except 'birth' date



Yes. And other members of forum noticed it.




> the spread of E-V13 is still a mystery

----------


## Garrick

> OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)


Don't be comical, you make mistake, because I don't use Slavic sources. No one source which I gave is Slavic. Even I don't use Serbian sources because they don't use new researches, especially genetic. But what is interesting Russian traditional historical school is totally obsolete. Yes, you can notice I never use sources from Russian school. Never.
...

Nemanjici were Serbian dynasty, Kosovo is Serbian land in Middle age, for example Tzar Stephan Dushan had capital in Prizren, it was Serbian city in that time. Cadastral tax census (defter) from 1455, for which I gave data, is Turkish, not Serbian. About Great migration of Serbs from Kosovo 1690, 1737-1739 wrote western sources, you can find where want. Christian Serbs were in the side with Christian Europe against Muslim Turks and their allies.

Albanians in that time were already converted to Islam. About Islam in Albania one short Muslim source:

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/albania1.htm

"By 1479, the entire country, except for Durres, Dulcigno and Antivari, was under Ottoman suzerainty. The lenient terms of capitulation required by Islamic law gave Albanians the right to retain their religious beliefs. It was not until the early seventeenth century that Islam began to gain hold in Albania. This is proof in itself that the so-called theories that Islam was forced upon Albanians and other Balkan peoples hold no ground in historical fact. Islam gave them a way to God without the entanglements of intermediaries and without the complex theological doctrines that typified medieval Christianity. Islam also gave Albanians a voice in the administration of not only their own lands but of the whole Ottoman State. Prominent Vizirs and Pashas hailed from Albania, and were appointed to their posts long before the majority of Albanians professed Islam."

This is about religion, of course, I think probably Turks didn't change genetic situation in the Balkans to a significant extent, except in the situations when they expelled the part of populations (Christian people) from the Balkans.

...
Yes I mostly use Western European sources and Anglo-Saxon sources, and of course Greek, Roman, Romanian, Turkish, Armenian, Iranian, North African sources etc. Of course I love authentic sources if I can find them. And today's sources can be international. Team of scientists from different countries of the world participate in scientific projects.

I look to avoid politics when it is possible. But Sile's thesis about Dardania was very interesting and I had to use historical facts. I'm not sure that he is right. Too many soldiers was passing those areas and populations have changed. Of course how Bicicleur, member of the forum says: " The spread of E-V13 is still mystery".

----------


## noUseForAname

> if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.


You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does *Garrick* find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that *E-V13 was brought by slavs*. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.

----------


## Милан М.

> You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does *Garrick* find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that *E-V13 was brought by slavs*. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.


There is no older or younger Slavs,language,variant or dialect,like which proves that Slavs moved from North to South? there is no prove,rather 19th century inception which some still follow,Slavs are where they are.

----------


## noUseForAname

Originally Posted by *Милан М.*



> even in Albania 50% or more are of Slavic origin


I woudnt say so (check the threads above) Albanians have very low R1a and *I2a1* (which are considered slavic) especially Gheg Albanian.

Gegh Albanian have only 4.4% R1a and I1 4.3% and *I2a2* 2.6% (roots are Germany Scandinavia) and I2a1 is Slavic north Carpathians

So slavic is only 4.4% to Gegh Albanians







> first alphabet in the 20th century,you should thank the Ottoman Turks and the Muslim faith for which you spread all over the region and on the Christians was made exodus from elsewhere after every rebelion,


surviving documents written in Albanian are the "formula e pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula), _Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spertit Senit. ("I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit") recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durrës in 1462 in the Gheg dialect. (found in Vatican) All Albaniains before Ottomans were majority Roman Catholics and Pagans then later some orthodox and Islam.


_


> which 12th century Slavic migration you are talking about,7th century Byzantines armies withdraw from the Balkans,entire was in Slavic dominance,maybe for someone is painful but most of Greece and the Balkans was Slavic speaking until 9th century when Byzantines came back with exception of some coastal cities,bringing people from Asia minor etc,


You mean they might have been colonized by north Slavs because Greeks nor Albanians nor Macedonians nor Bulgarians *were never slavic* as a majority.


1000BC: Slavs settle by the Dnieprs river - *Today Ukraine*558 AD: defeated by the Avars the Slavs move east from the Russian steppes575: the East Slavs inhabit western Russia, *the South Slavs inhabit the Balkan peninsula*, the West Slavs inhabit Poland, Czechoslovakia and Prussia582: *South Slavs settle near Salonika ("Servia")* under tsar Heraclius584: South Slavs mix with Bulgars612: *South Slavs invade Greece* and reach Thessalonica
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavs.html



http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/serbia_1915.htm




You can see how *Slavs* reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500

----------


## Garrick

> You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does *Garrick* find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that *E-V13 was brought by slavs*. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.


Do not make confusion. Different populations may carry E-V13, it's clearly because it is everywhere in Turkey, Lebanon, Caucasus, Eastern Europe, Southeast of Europe, in Italy, Spain, in the West of Europe and others.

It said as criticism of your insistence that all E-V13 connect with Albanians, and we know that only 3.48% of E-V13 population in Europe and Turkey belongs to Albanians.

----------


## Garrick

> So slavic is only 4.4% to Gegh Albanians


Again you one haplogroup (R1a) equating with Slavs. It is nonsense. Not all Slavic people are R1a, not all R1a are Slavic. I told you that Slavic people could carry E-V13, and other haplogroups, and in the Balkans R1a could be from Thracians, Dacians, Minoans?, etc.




> You can see how *Slavs* reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500


Then Serbs have nothing with Slavs. First known monarch of Serbian lands in the Balkans by name was Prince Viseslav (fl. 768–814). Of course Serbian lands existed earlier but there are disagreements between scientists about their rulers.

But if (according some Romanian scientists) Carpi and Costoboci came to Albania from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania and Moldavia, maybe Albanians and Slavs came together. Hm?



Carpi and Costoboci, if they were Dacian, Scythian or Albanian?

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## Милан М.

[QUOTE=Garrick;460361]
But if (according some Romanian scientists) Carpi and Costoboci came to Albania from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania and Moldavia, maybe Albanians and Slavs came together. Hm?

I think that Albanian and Slavic was in the Balkans prior to Romans conquest and earlier,but don't know which region,you can't just trace Slavic as modern(Serbo-Croat,Bulgarian) what about the archaic form Balto-Slavic which many words we still keep,languages developed trough time,most of the settlements,words are explainable and some identical especially Thracian.

----------


## Sile

the majority of Serbs are from ancient Triballi Thracians and some Moesian people. Even the serbian government has noted this.
They E-v13 would also be part of these triballi

*Exonym of Serbs* The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[13][14][15][16][17] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18][19][20][21][22] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "_... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..._"[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: _"... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."_[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25]
 


The Seal of the Serbian Parliament, 1805.


In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper _Сабор у Констанци_.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.[30]

----------


## Yetos

> the majority of Serbs are from ancient Triballi Thracians and some Moesian people. Even the serbian government has noted this.
> They E-v13 would also be part of these triballi
> 
> *Exonym of Serbs*
> 
> The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[13][14][15][16][17] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18][19][20][21][22] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "_... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..._"[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: _"... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."_[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25]
>  
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree with that, 
Serb fathers are
ancient Triballi, and around Thracian tribes and population Dinaric,Moesian, Pannoni
Roman-Celtic dwellers, like Scordisci could left some population, or Flavians in Nis
Sorbs as Slavic newcomers from North with some Avaric allies possible.

----------


## Милан М.

> I do agree with that, 
> Serb fathers are
> ancient Triballi, and around Thracian tribes and population Dinaric,Moesian, Pannoni
> Roman-Celtic dwellers, like Scordisci could left some population, or Flavians in Nis
> Sorbs as Slavic newcomers from North with some Avaric allies possible.


Serbinum was recorded in present day Bosnia by Ptolemy and other authors which perhaps derrive it's name from the Sarmatian tribe Serboi and we don't know how Tribalians called themselves,The Triballi were a Thracian tribe that received influences from Celts, Scythians and Illyrians.So they could take the name from this people,the name Serb is most probably Sarmatian or Schyntian,In his _Roman History (ca. 200 AD), Cassius Dio adds:_ In ancient times, it is true, Moesians and Getae occupied all the land between Haemus and the Ister; but as time went on some of them changed their names, and since then there have been included under the name of Moesia all the tribes living above Dalmatia, Macedonia, and Thrace, and separated from Pannonia by theSavus, a tributary of the Ister. Two of the many tribes found among them are those formerly called the Triballi, and the Dardani, who still retain their old name.So he say that Triballi already changed their name.

----------


## Ike

> OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)
> 
> *2% Albanians in Kosovo OMG*, no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG. 
> 
> *No Serbian propaganda* please....*we talk* here* ONLY dna* and* linguistics* onlyfrom* international* scientific papers


You should stick to the facts and stop poisoning this thread. There was no Albanians on Kosovo 1000 years ago.

----------


## Garrick

> no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG.


Why do you impute me what I did not speak. I never argued that Albanians came with Turks as slaves in Caucasus area.

My opinion about movement speakers of Proto Albanians from Caucasus, area around Black sea, Ukrainian steppes, to Moldavia and Romania nothing do what you talking about.

And it has evolved, some members of forum (different nationality, no one is Slavic) helped me to develop thoughts.

You can see what I wrote two years before:

It means that based in haplogroups and another things we can fairly precisely to locate place in Romania or somewhere in region from which Albanian came to the south Adriatic coast and nearby mountains.
...

Then I did not know that some Romanian scientists wrote about tribes Carpi and Costoboci moved from their locations in Romania, Moldavia, SouthWestern Ukraine to Albania. I thank my Romanian friends for these information.
...

For Berber language I told more time, I like discover where are extinct languages, E-V13 haplogroup and I (I1, I2) haplogroup. It is possible that some words from AfroAsiatic languages saved in Albanian. Yes, Albanian is IE language, Proto Albanian probably was the closest to Proto Armenian and foreruners of West and North Iranian languages. I think, probably haplogroup R1b ht35 played central role in creating of Proto Albanian. But E-V13 carriers could give the contribution.

Why Berber as Afro Asiatic language, but no Coptic or Egyptian language, how some Albanian intellectuals wrote. Because I had my African friends who give me Berber words, I could not find Copts or appropriate dictionary of Coptic words.
...




> You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does *Garrick* find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that *E-V13 was brought by slavs*. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.


You did not understand him. He critiqued me just because I told that maybe Slavs (with Albanians) came from Carpathian mountains to the Balkans. I told as irony but his critique may be in place.

...
I cannot believe what confuse you. In every Slavic country exist significant E-V13. If Slavs came from North to South they brought some E-V13, it is logical, it would be illogical if someone thinks vice versa.
...
You can see here that some members think that Tribali and other tribes Thracian etc. are Serbian. It is possible, for this historical sources exist.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;460361]



> Again you one haplogroup (R1a) equating with Slavs. It is nonsense. Not all Slavic people are R1a, not all R1a are Slavic. I told you that Slavic people could carry E-V13, and other haplogroups, and in the Balkans R1a could be from Thracians, Dacians, Minoans?, etc.


Of course not (as said before everyone is mixed, we have to talk with percentages)
Maciamo argues Carpathian's Dacian's Thracians belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a.

So R1a and I2a1 = 60%..........*Gheg* *Albanians* on both R1a I2a1 = *4.4% (*Carpathian Dacian Thracian)


And he argues as primarily (*so majority*) Slavic are R1a M458 (*root Poland*) and I2a1 (*root Ukraine*) ..........Gheg Albanian 4.4% (Slavic)





*Maciamo*
*The ancient Slavs
*Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2





> Then Serbs have nothing with Slavs. First known monarch of Serbian lands in the Balkans by name was Prince Viseslav (fl. 768–814). Of course Serbian lands existed earlier but there are disagreements between scientists about their rulers.



AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, *Serbs* descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... *so 63% Slavic*

*Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic*, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Serbinum was recorded in present day Bosnia by Ptolemy and other authors which perhaps derrive it's name from the Sarmatian tribe Serboi and we don't know how Tribalians called themselves,The Triballi were a Thracian tribe



This might Correlate with Maciamo arguing that I2a1 migrated to around Dalmatia 3,000 ybp from Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (West Ukraine, Moldova, north east Romania), so Sarmatian were around Ukraine....
and Serbs have very high !2a1 48%,

----------


## Garrick

> AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, *Serbs* descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... *so 63% Slavic*
> 
> *Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic*, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.


You gave wrong dates:




> You can see how *Slavs* reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500


Of course I was ironic when you made mistake in the centuries. Nothing offensive, everyone can make errors, but look at data.

Now, you give wrong percents. Serbs have no 48% I2a1 (it would be nice).

----------


## Garrick

> The thing is that the arival of "Slavs" was never proven,even Marija Gimbutas the author of Kurgan hypothesis,which i consider maybe the most biased in Slavic studies,has said that there is no archeological proves for the migration in the Balkans.And let alone linguistic if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.



Your thoughts are fresh. Reputation. Of course you can be right, perhaps traditional schools sow things incorrect, many people doubt it, and can you get some data.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;460484]


> You gave wrong dates:


what has your answer (wrong dates) got to do with the below?
_AS per Maciamo, it would look like this,_ *Serbs* descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... *so 63% Slavic*

*Gheg* Albanians are *4.4% Slavic*, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.

dates no dates it looks like that Serbs are 63% Slavic, and Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic.





> Now, you give wrong percents. Serbs have no 48% I2a1 (it would be nice).


This is what i have from below, you have other data?

*Serbs*
IE (Slavic, South)
179
4.5
14.5
48
17.3
5.6
2.2
3.3
—
L=0.6
Mirabal,V.2010[39]

----------


## Sile

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;460492]


> what has your answer (wrong dates) got to do with the below?
> _AS per Maciamo, it would look like this,_ *Serbs descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... so 63% Slavic
> Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.*
> 
> dates no dates it looks like that Serbs are 63% Slavic, and Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Spreadsheet #3 of that paper states ..........I2a ( xI2a1) for 100% of all these.

So Serbs have zero I2a1

----------


## Garrick

> This is what i have from below, you have other data?
> 
> *Serbs*
> IE (Slavic, South)
> 179
> 4.5
> 14.5
> 48
> 17.3
> ...


You made mistake again, but it does not matter.

Yes, I know, my opinion is this American study is the best of all which were in Serbia. But you can see in Eupedia, data are something different because Maciamo took all studies which performed in Serbia. And I2a is 33%.

It is interesting Serbian project base (according peoples who give data) gives same result as Eupedia for I2a!, but some differences exist among other haplogroups. For better findings Serbia must do serious study with bigger samples and by regions. But for our discussion Serbia must do tests ancient samples, from Lepenski Vir, Vinca etc, and samples from BA/IA, period before and after Christ, etc. It will give cleaner picture.

Personally I like results for Serbia, we have several admixtures, we are vital. Without problems we tolerated different temperatures and extreme heat and extreme cold, we are neither too bright not too dark, etc. I had interesting discussions with LeBrok about hunter-gatherers and farmers, and it is good have mix of both worlds.

...
But to return to the thread. We have 17 pages but nothing to do between Pelasgian and Albanian, what it is normal because connection does not exist.

It is impossible to show that link exists between carriers of E-V13 and Pelasgian. Pelasgian definitely is not extinct language of E-V13.

Realistically, the thread does not make much sense and we here wasting time writing about completely different things.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Nemanjici were Serbian dynasty, Kosovo is Serbian land in Middle age, for example Tzar Stephan Dushan had capital in Prizren, it was Serbian city in that time. Cadastral tax census (defter) from 1455, for which I gave data, is Turkish, not Serbian. About Great migration of Serbs from Kosovo 1690, 1737-1739 wrote western sources, you can find where want. Christian Serbs were in the side with Christian Europe against Muslim Turks and their allies.



You mean Kosovo part might have been conquered, you don't really believe that there was ever 2% Gheg Albanians in Kosovo. No offence to you but that is pure Serbian Propaganda defter from 1455 turks, this is nonsense…… 


The below are from the very *Transparent* sources covering from most countries (so its not one sided nor either a propaganda)


*Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars* *1913* *Argues* (Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)

The various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (the *indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian* having been either *driven out or assimilated*) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "Great Servia" or "Great Bulgaria." 

The Balkan League (comprising: Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria) jointly attacked the Ottoman Empire and during the next few months *partitioned* all Ottoman territory *inhabited by Albanians*.[1] 
A series of massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars were committed by the Serbian and Montenegrin Army and paramilitaries, according to international reports.[1]
Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of *regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians*.[1]

From this time on nationalism distinctly gained ground in Servia. The whole of Macedonia was identified with "Old Servia" and "Young Servia," in its map, claimed the entire territory occupied under the rule of Stephen Douchan, in the fourteenth century. At this period the net work of Servian schools spread specially fast, thanks to the aid of the Turks, You can see how *Turks and Servians* collaborated with each other

official *Turkish statistics admitted* only one principle of discrimination between the ethnic, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc. 
So you gave me the turkish defter where it was with collaboration with Servians and you can see the admitted discrimination.

The War and the Nationalities 1. Extermination, Emigration, Assimilation 
On September 20 last (new style), the Servian army carried off all the cattle of the Malesia of Dibra. and then began pillaging and burning all the villages on their way: Pechkapia, Pletza and Dochichti, in lower Dibra; Alai, Beg, Machi, Para, Oboku, Klobotchichta, and Solokitzi, in upper Dibra. 
In all these villages the Servians committed acts of horrible massacre and outrage on women, children and old people. 

The means employed by the Greek against the Bulgarian, by the Turk against the Slav, by the *Servian against the Albanian*, is no longer *extermination* or emigration; it is an indirect method which must, however/ lead to the same end, that of *conversion and assimilation*. 
They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the *Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metchia*), despite the fact that *this historic domain was strongly Albanian*.

https://archive.org/details/reportofinternat00inteuoft


i have showed you the source how *Gheg* ALbanians except from Kosovo they were *majority even in the south Serbia by 1877*....
_Toplica__, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]_
_January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37]Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37]_ 
_Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]_
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...ttoman_Muslims_
_http://balkanologie.revues.org/265

Danish Source....

_

*Vilajet Kossowo:418.000
Mahomedaansche Albaneezen

9.000
Mahomedaansche Turken

14.000
Mahomedaansche Bulgaren

250.000
Christene Bulgaren

113.000
Orthodoxe Serviërs

900
Orthodoxe Wallachen

200
Orthodoxe Grieken

22.000
Gemengd


*

Albanians with Serbs from *100% Albanian Serbs have 25%* (Except from current Kosovo, even covering large part of South west Serbia, north east Montenegro, parts of western Macedonia)

*Vilajet Skutari1:
80.000
Mahomedaansche Albaneezen

40.000
Mahomedaansche Serviërs

1.200
Mahomedaansche Turken

5.000
Mahomedaansche Zwitsers

14.000
Katholieke Albaneezen

30.000
Christene Serviërs

10.000
Orthodoxe Wallachen

5.000
Jode


*
*Vilajet Janina:180.000
Mahomedaansche Albaneezen

10.000
Mahomedaansche Turken

180.000
Orthodoxe Wallachen

110.000
Orthodoxe Albaneezen

110.000
Orthodoxe Grieken

25.000
Katholieke Albaneezen

20.000
Christen Bulgaren

7.000
Christen Zigeuners

6.000
Joden


*

*Vilajet Monastir:219.000
Mahomedaansche Albaneezen

11.500
Mahomedaansche Turken

24.000
Mahomedaansche Bulgaren

331.000
Christene Bulgaren

62.000
Orthodoxe Grieken

65.000
Orthodoxe Wallachen

35.000
Gemengde


*
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html





_You don't seem to know about Gjergj KAstrioti (skanderbeg) from a Kastrioti family Gheg Albanian fought agains the ottomans for so long,_ and he was considered by many in western Europe to be *a model of Christian resistance* against the Ottoman. He has united all the Albanian prince's agains the Ottomans 
Gjergj Kastrioti was born in 1405[G] in one of the two villages owned by his grandfather Pal Kastrioti.[A] Skanderbeg's father was Gjon Kastrioti, lord of Middle Albania, which included Mat, Mirditë and Dibër.[21]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg


Another battle occurred between the Hungarian troops supported by the *Albanian ruler* George *Kastrioti* Skanderbeg on one side, and *Ottoman troops supported by the* *Branković dynasty* in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.
Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.


You see how even in above post (International commission) and this one here Serbians collaborates with Ottomans, and you were sourcing Brankovic Dynasty collaboration with turks, and therefore making your *so called "facts"* (defteri) one sided, highly suspicious and unreliable. (therefore i sourced you the *international* sources)

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname

Ridicuously. You are talking about 1877, 1913. It is good that you don’t speak about present day situation. We are talking about Middle Age not 19th or 29th century.

…
You can see *Serbia in Middle age (1265) in the time of Serbian dynasty Nemanjici. Kosovo is in Serbia.* (Albanians are far.)


These are facts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

*1321–31*
The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contains a detailed list of households and villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. The first charter concludes that this region was ethnically Serb.[15] *89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded, out of which 86 were Serb (96,6%)*, and 3 were Albanian (3,3%); there were 2,166 livestock households of *2,666 agricultural households, out of which 2,122 were Serb (98%)*, and 44 were Albanian (2%).[16]

*1455*
Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands
The Ottoman cadastral tax census (defter) of 1455 in the Branković lands (covering most of present-day Kosovo) recorded:

480 villages,13,693 adult males,12,985 dwellings,14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males).

Yugoslav and Serbian scholars have researched the defter, concluding that:[17]

*13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and town*s75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn1 Croat dwelling

Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo, *95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin*, 1.90% of Roman origin, 1.56% of uncertain origin, 0.26% of Albanian origin, 0.25% of Greek origin, etc.[18][19]
...

Battle of Kosovo was 1389. Christian Serbs had fewer soldiers than Muslim Turks. Serbs fought honourably defending Europe. Unfortunately Ottomans won and after that Serbia falls under Muslim rule.

Occupation of Balkans was costing for the Europe. Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies invaded deeper in Europe. Austria, Hungary and allies led one of the longest wars in history. Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies. Because of that Turks did the terrible retribution against Serbs. Of course during the centuries of occupation not only Serbs, all Balkan Christians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Tsintsars, etc. suffered greatly due to the depredations of the Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies. 

Unfortunately Serbs had to migrate from their lands. Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo. In that time Albanians already were mostly Muslim. Albanians mostly converted to Islam in 15 and 16 century.

*Kosovo is known as Old Serbia*. *The name of Kosovo is Serbian origin*. It is Serbian neuter possessive adjective of word *kos* (= *blackbird*), an ellipsis for *Kosovo Polje* = *field of the blackbirds*. But *full name of province is Kosovo and Metohija*. *Word Metohija is Greek origin* and it means *monastic estates* (*Gr. μετόχια =metókhia, metochion*).

...
Haplogroups in the Kosovo and Metohija changed. Probably several centuries ago haplogroup I2a was dominated. Now it is E-V13. It is example how judging from current situation means that misleads.

----------


## noUseForAname

> From Edi Shukriu's "Prehistory and Antique History of Kosova"(I can't find it anymore,so I'll copy-paste it) :
> 
> "The integration processes went on during the Bronze Age (2100 – 1200), relying on mine and trade economy, along with the agricultural and farming ones. The small number of dug localities of Bronze Age enables only general conclusions on the existence of settlements on lower hills (Vlashnjë, Teneshdoll) and on the plain (Ljushtë, Qëndresan/Gllarevë, Glladnicë, Nasalë/Nosalë, Berrnicë); of tumular necropolises of the mid Bronze Age (Rugovë, Ujz, Përçetë/Përçevë) and of field necropolises with urns (Berrnicë, Grashticë) in the transition from Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The findings in Kosova proved commercial links with the developed Mycenaean culture, during the mid Bronze Age (XVI-XV centuries) and this heralds the possibility of earlier contacts and influences with Mediterranean civilizations."
> 
> 
> "The settlements of Proto-Dardanian stage are located on elevated terraces near rivers (Kllokot, Nasalë, Fafos II), whilst in the Dardanian stage they were located on higher hills. The Dardanian stage settlements are multilayered, which is an expression of empowerment of Dardanians and of their sustainable economic resources (Upper Gadime, Hisar and Kasterc of Suharekë, Veletin, Big Bardh, Cernicë, Dubofc, Vlashnjë, Cermnjan, Zatriq, Pidiq, Teneshdoll, Artanë/ Novobërdë etc.). In the Iron Age surrounding earth ramparts mixed with stones were constructed (Kulinë/Teneshdoll) or only stone ramparts (Veletin). Hilly settlements are mainly known by the name gradina and g(r)adisha (Indo-European.: gard, Albanian: gardh=fence).7 In the Pre-Dardanian stage the burying was done also in flat graves with urns – Berrnica culture (Berrnicë, Grashticë), whilst during the Dardanian stage in tumular necropolises, practicing both rituals, the one of cremation and that of coffin-burials (Romajë, Rogovë, Ujz, Shirokë, Dibiçak, Porodime, Përçetë/Përçevë, Bajë of Pejë, Llashtishtë, Gurëz/ Gërlicë, Biti, Moklikë). Tumular necropolises of Kosova belong to the Glasinac complex and are related to tombs of Kukës, Mat and Gllasinac."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture
> 
> ...




Very interesting info regarding the Ancient Dardania, the link below shows some links with Dardanian, Greek and Roman.... 

Two labyrinths and Dardanian, Greek and Roman relations by Dea Dardanica’s monument









https://www.academia.edu/1787671/Two...oman_relations

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Garrick;460670]noUseForAname




> You can see *Serbia in Middle age (1265) in the time of Serbian dynasty Nemanjici. Kosovo is in Serbia.* (Albanians are far.)


We are not arguing about the kingdoms nor empires, everyone knows that they *conquer (colonize)* and inhabit already inhabited indigenous peoples soil. (again you are sourcing mostly Serbian Sources), 
Major *international* studies argue....


Despite the facts that ancient tribe of *Dardani* which inhabited the region prior to the Roman conquest (*28 BC–6 AD*).
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the *Albanian word "dardha"* meaning pear. [1]*Bardyllis* was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from *Bardh(White) and Yll(Star)*.[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)


Since 238, *Moesia* was constantly invaded or raided by the *Carpi*, and the Goths, who had already invaded Moesia in 250. You see here Moesia and not Dardania, and as we discussed before *serbs have very high Carpi genetics* and its exactly (moesia not Dardania) at the *current far north Serbia*. Also Carpi never invaded Dardania.




1994, p. 74 
the Hungarian attack launched in 1183 with which Nemanja was allied [...] was able to conquer Kosovo and Metohija, including Prizren.

You see what i mean Nemanja Dynasty *conquer Kosovo*, (probably from the very north)


You see what *Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars 1913 Argues (*Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)T

he various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (the *indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian* having been either *driven out or assimilated*) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "*Great Servia*" or "Great Bulgaria." 

So Serbs are *not indigenous* of these Soils, (now if they colonized the area it doesn't mean it's Serbian)

From this time on *nationalism* distinctly gained ground in Servia. The whole of Macedonia was identified with "*Old Servia*" and "Young Servia," in its map, claimed the entire territory occupied under the rule of Stephen Douchan, in the fourteenth century. At this period the net work of Servian schools spread specially fast, thanks to the aid of the Turks, so they collaborated with Turks to gain more Soil, and Old Servia as you can see is just a Serbian nationalism (this is from the international detailed report)

The means employed by the Greek against the Bulgarian, by the Turk against the Slav, by the *Servian against the Albanian*, is no longer *extermination* or emigration; it is an indirect method which must, however/ lead to the same end, that of conversion and assimilation. 
They have not merely resumed possession of their ancient domain, the Sandjak of Novi-Bazar and *Old Servia proper (Kosovo Pole and Metchia)*, despite the fact that this *historic* domain was* strongly Albanian*.

You see middle ages you mention Kosovo strongly Albanian, even Novi Bazar, you see Old Servia is just a nationalistic by Serbs (this is from the international detailed report)
*
https://archive.org/details/reportofinternat00inteuoft
*

If they would have been so indegineous then why the most recent study does not include Serbs as early inhabitants of South east Europe? but they include *Greeks Albanians Bulgarians Croats*?





> *1321–31*
> The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contains a detailed list of households and villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. The first charter concludes that this region was ethnically Serb.[15] *89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded, out of which 86 were Serb (96,6%)*, and 3 were Albanian (3,3%); there were 2,166 livestock households of *2,666 agricultural households, out of which 2,122 were Serb (98%)*, and 44 were Albanian (2%).[16]


*Pure Serbian propaganda*, from these *2 sources* their Serbian (i told you *please no Serbian Sources* only international) You call these *facts*?
(16) Prof. Djordje Janković, Ph.D Archaeological department. Faculty of Philosophy, *Belgrade* University
(17) Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, Dečanske hrisovulje, *Serbian*




> *
> 1455*
> Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands
> The Ottoman cadastral tax census (defter) of 1455 in the Branković lands (covering most of present-day Kosovo) recorded:


official *Turkish statistics admitted* only one principle of *discrimination between the ethnic*, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc. (this is from the international detailed report), you see how the statistics are unreliable....

I have sourced how Brankovic collaborated with turks and together they fought agains Ghegj Kastrioti (so no Tukish and Serbian sources please)

Another battle occurred between the Hungarian troops supported by the Albanian ruler George Kastrioti Skanderbeg on one side, and Ottoman troops supported by the Branković dynasty in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.
Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.*

*



> Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo, *95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin*, 1.90% of Roman origin, 1.56% of uncertain origin, 0.26% of Albanian origin, 0.25% of Greek origin, etc.[18][19]


OMG all *Serbian* propaganda *Sources again* (please no Serbian sources)

(19) Slavica Jovovic, Veroqub Nikolic, Beograd - *Serbian*
(18) In 1972 the Sarajevo Institute of Middle Eastern Studies - Bosnian *Serbian*





> Battle of Kosovo was 1389. Christian Serbs had fewer soldiers than Muslim Turks. Serbs fought honourably defending Europe. Unfortunately Ottomans won and after that Serbia falls under Muslim rule.


All Balkan inhabitants fought against Ottomans, Gjergj Kastrioti was considered by many in western Europe to be *a model of Christian resistance against the Ottoman,* however Serbs collaborated in various occasions with turks, whilst gaining more land inhabited mostly by Gegh Albanians.

Battle of Kosovo is a big myth
*Miloš Obilić* (Serbian Cyrillic: Милош Обилић, pronounced [mîloʃ ôbilit͡ɕ]; died 1389) was a Serbian knight in the service of Prince Lazar, during the invasion of the Ottoman Empire. He is not mentioned in contemporary sources, but he features prominently in later accounts of the Battle of Kosovo as the assassin of the Ottoman sultan Murad I. Although the assassin remains anonymous in sources until the late 15th century, the dissemination of the story of Murad's assassination in Florentine, Serbian, Ottoman and Greek sources suggests that versions of it circulated widely across the Balkans within half a century after the event.
It is not certain whether Obilić actually existed, but Lazar's family – strengthening their political control – "*gave birth to the myth of Kosovo*", including the story of Obilić.[1]

*Venetians* were uncertain if news about the assassination of Sultan Murat were true.[15]

There are two main views about the creation of the Kosovo legend. In one view, its place of origin lies in the region in which the Battle of Kosovo was fought. In the other view, the legend sprang up in more westerly Balkan regions under the influence of the French _chansons de geste._


This is why i mention to you no Serbian sources please...

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Very interesting info regarding the Ancient Dardania, the link below shows some links with Dardanian, Greek and Roman.... 
> 
> Two labyrinths and Dardanian, Greek and Roman relations by Dea Dardanica’s monument
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Nice slabs,thanks for sharing!



Reminds me of a couple of guys, that acted in a pretty offensive manner:*

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Justin_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I



"The new emperor was already elderly and his background was humble.
He originated from Latin-speaking Illyricum, having been born at
Bederiana, near Naissus (Nis), and he owed his success to his career in the
guard."


"Justin reopened relations with Rome;
Theoderic’s son-in-law Eutharic became western consul for 519 with Justin
himself as his eastern colleague, and the ending of the Acacian schism
between Constantinople and the papacy was announced in Constantinople
in terms favourable to Rome at the end of March, 519.13 Predictably, this
led to discontent among eastern Christians, which was met by repression;
this was to cause difficulties for Justinian later,14 and the 520s also saw the
appearance of other doctrinal issues, with which he had to struggle as
emperor"

*Justinian relied on his Balkaneers,but the Plague ,with its dreadful consequences,ruined their plans(since words are meaningless,and forgettable,I rely on copy-paste):

*"The Balkan peninsula alone supplied nearly
half the eastern emperors, while Constantinople or its environs apparently
gave birth to only one western (Anthemius) and two eastern emperors
(Theodosius II and Justin II).

The geographic pattern is closely connected with emperors’ professional
backgrounds, since the army recruited heavily in the Balkans. In fact,
military careers or families supplied at least half of the emperors, whereas
fewer than a fifth had significant backgrounds in the civilian bureaucracy."

"In spite of the best efforts of emperors, especially Anastasius and
Justinian, the Balkan provinces remained an unsettled area. Anastasius’
actions in the eastern Balkans were undermined by the troubles associated
with Vitalian’s revolt, which was centred on the lower Danube and the
Black Sea coast, while under Justinian the Balkans had to cede precedence
to military activity elsewhere in the empire: after the start of the western
reconquest this became a serious problem – Balkan military commanders
are found in action in Italy and large numbers of troops were recruited in
the Balkans for service in the west."




*He did everything for the ladies,not by the ladies,because the Roman society was patriarchal:*


"Justinian’s activity as codifier of imperial Roman law was of immense
importance in its later transmission and adoption in western Europe. But
he was also an energetic legislator himself – indeed, restless innovation is
one of Procopius’ charges against him. Vehement against homosexuals, his
legislation on family matters gives more rights to mothers and recognizes
women as being in need of protection, also allowing them to initiate
divorce, even if on restricted grounds."


*Now, 100% seriously*

*As for Edi's last remark(from my previous post), it's undeniable that the Roman presence here was significant,simply because the Balkans had a strategic importance,especially the Danube's limes,which was the core of Romanization.
Certain events hastened this process:*


"Most cities survived the period of Gothic ravaging
and settlement, partly because Goths were not skilled besiegers, but
rural hinterlands upon which the vitality of cities depended had been seriously
affected. This stimulated a significant change in the pattern of settlement,
with the abandonment of isolated rural villages that previously had
served as nuclei for exploiting the countryside and a migration of population
to the safety of urban defences or upland refuges.2 Some cities might
benefit from an influx of wealthy rural inhabitants who now relocated their
grand villas inside the walls, while others in more exposed places received
impoverished country people but lost their élites. Walls were strengthened
or rebuilt, perhaps to enclose a restricted, more defensible, circuit, though
habitation might still extend beyond the central defended area, as at Athens"(Cambridge Ancient History,vol.14)

P.S.

Justinian,Justin,The Romans/Dardanians/Thracians/Illyrians,NoUser,Angela, the slabs,were not involved in the irony.

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname

Step by step especially about your word which you use very much: propaganda. Which propaganda?

1.
Ah that non-existent Serbian propaganda. Serbs are everywhere. Map is from *William R. Sheperd’s Historical Atlas 1911*. He had to be Serb, what do you think. William R. Sheperd spreads Serbian propaganda.

Good joke.

But come one once again to look up this map from 1265.



Not only Kosovo and Metohija was Serbian, even present day North Albania was Serbian. Historically Skadar was Serbian city. One time Skadar was the Serbian capital.

What do more we see in the map?

Albanians lived in Despotat of Epirus. Whole area wasn’t Albanian, I will not here about percentages of Albanians. There lived Epirotes Greeks and Tsintsars (or Vlachs or Aromanians).
…

2.
What were *Decani charters* signed by Serbian king Uros?

The *Dečani chrysobulls* or *Dečani charters* are *chrysobulls dating to 1321-1331*, signed by *Stefan Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, the Serbian King*, which contains a detailed list of households and villages in what is today *Metohija* and *northwestern Albania*.
(Metohija is Western part of Kosovo and Metohija).



King Stefan Dečanski (r. 1321–1331) mentioned that the court dignitaries present at the Dečani assembly were the kaznac, tepčija, vojvoda, sluga and stavilac.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De%C4%8Dani_chrysobulls
Demographics

*The first charter concludes that the region was ethnically Serb.*
89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

*86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)*
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)
2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:
*2,122 Serbian households (98%)*
44 Albanian households (2%)

You can claim this is Middle age Serbian propaganda (!?) but you must know that 1321-1331 things were different. At that time nations did not exist in modern sense. To landlord was completely irrelevant who were his serfs: Serbs, Albanians, Martians etc.

There were not Albanians in Metohija (Eastern part of Kosovo and Metohija) and very small Albanian community in present day North Albania. Whole area was Serbian.

You can see this document.


Ok. You can say: “The Earth does not revolve around Sun”. Who cares.
…

3.
*Turkish defter of Brankovics land* (*cadastral tax census of area which mostly covers present day Kosovo and Metohija*) is not Serbian propaganda, too. 

You don’t know details and you’re trying to shout: Serbian propaganda. Serbian propaganda.

But there is no propaganda.

Because *Serbs didn’t study Turkish defters*!

You don’t know relations in *Tito’s Yugoslavia*. In this country was brotherhood and unity, no one nation was hegemonistic. You know, Albanians from Albania in the time of Enver Hoxha fled to Yugoslavia (SR Serbia, SR Montenegro, etc.) because life in Yugoslavia was much better and freedom was incomparably greater than in Albania.

Yugoslav communists and scientists wanted to reveal the *truth about history*. *Researches were very serious* and *findings were respected from International scientific community*.

Since the Turkish defter from 1455 was a sensitive issue, and since Bosnian scientists were the best experts for medieval Turkish, this and other *Turkish defters* didn’t study scientists Serbian nationality but *scientists Bosniacs nationality, Muslims by faith*. For this defter And they consulted *Turkish experts*.

*Scientists* are: *Hamid Hadzibegic, Adem Handzic and Esref Kovacevic*, all *Muslim Bosniacs*. Authors are not ethnic Serbs.
Their book is published and everyone can see, *publisher is: Oriental Institute Sarajevo, Bosnia*.

*Original data are in Turkey, Istambul*, who don’t believe he or she can go to the Turkey.

noUseForAname
Do you know what nonsense you said. *Scientists Muslim Bosniacs and Turks spread Serbian propaganda*!?
No, they don’t spread propaganda, they translated original documents with Medieval Turkish and prepared according science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_d...vi%C4%87_lands

Findings:
*There were 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns*. 

*There were only 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages*, *it is smaller than 75 Vlach (Aromanian) dwellings in 34 villages*.

Findings of Muslim Bosnian scientists say *that in Kosovo of 1455 lived Serbs in all 480 dwellings*.

There were no Albanians in significant percent (*only 0.3% Albanian dwellings*).

Out of all names mentioned in this census, conducted by the Ottomans in 1455, covering areas of most of present-day Kosovo:

*95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin*,
1.90% of Roman origin, (Vlachs or Aromanians)
1.56% of uncertain origin,
*0.26% of Albanian origin*,
0.25% of Greek origin, etc.

The mostly names in defter are:
*Radislav* (male name)*1.478*
*Bogdan* (male name) *1.209* and
*Radica* (female name) *1.204*.

Maybe these are Albanian names, what do you think noUseForAname?

But everyone who knows Serbian or Slavic names for him or her it is clear that *they are Serbs*.

*It is 66 years after Battle of Kosovo which Turks won, and Serbia 1455 is under Turkish rule*.

I can give in every post names and surnames Serbs in defter and whole Turkish defter if you want to study, side by side, but not in this thread, of course I can open new thread.

----------


## noUseForAname

Garrick 


I think you are not reading my posts entirely, or maybe you also lack understanding of English language, (but here i explain again *for the last time*).

*1:* 
William R. Sheperd’s Historical Atlas 1911.

We are not arguing about the kingdoms nor empires, everyone knows that they conquer (colonize) and inhabit already inhabited indigenous peoples soil, Do you see Bulgaria map so different from now?, you see kingdom of Armenia in south Turkey, *Macedonia is not even on the map*, Greece all divided in small pieces....do you understand now, how can you claim it's Serbian?, do you see Hungary took all of the Serbia north to mid up to Beograd?...do you understand now that we are not talking about who took what, but talk about indigenous populations and where they were mostly located.

Now from the same year 1911, and as we were talking about populations (not kingdoms) check the Danish source about populations before and during ottomans....
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html

If we claim as you are claiming then we should also claim that the whole area was Bulgarian because Bulgarian empire covered all those areas. Bulgarian Empire (839 to 1241)Now i think you must understand better....


*2:* 
1321–31 The Dečani chrysobullsfrom - 2% Albanian

this ALL sources are Serbian (i told you please no Serbian Sources only international) 
(16) Prof. Djordje Janković, Ph.D Archaeological department. Faculty of Philosophy, Belgrade University
(17) Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, Dečanske hrisovulje, Serbian

Look at the source you placed in wilki - *all Serbian fairy tales*...not even one international
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De%C4%8Dani_chrysobulls
Demographics

Srđan Šarkić (1996). Matica srpska. p. 66.
Milica Grković, 2004, First charter of Dečani: 
Pavle Ivić and Milica Grković, 1976

*
3:*
1455 Main article: 1455 defter of the Branković lands

Brankovic dynasty is only medieval noble family and dynasty, how can you claim because they colonized the lands all inhabitants were Serbian
So probably they would try to defend their colonized lands by claiming everyone was serbian. what about Bulgarian empire (*839 to 1241*) of all those areas *should we claim it was all Bulgarian*?...So *Kosovo* is Bulgarian now?

official *Turkish statistics admitted* only one principle of discrimination between the ethnic, groups dwelling in Macedonia, namely religion. Thus all the Mahommedans formed a single group although there might be among them Turks, Albanians, Bulgarian "pomaks," etc. : all the patriarchists in the same way were grouped together as ''Greeks," although there might be among them Ser- vians, Wallachians, Bulgarians, etc. (this is from the international detailed report), you see how the statistics are unreliable....

I have sourced how Brankovic collaborated with turks and together they fought agains Ghegj Kastrioti (so no Tukish and Serbian sources please)
Another battle occurred *between the Hungarian troops supported by the Albanian* ruler George Kastrioti Skanderbeg on one side, and *Ottoman troops supported by the Branković dynasty* in 1448. Skanderbeg's troops which were going to help John Hunyadi were stopped by the Branković's troops, who was more or less an Ottoman vassal.Hungarian King John Hunyadi lost the battle after a 2-day fight, but essentially stopped the Ottoman advance northwards. Kosovo then became vassalaged to the Ottoman Empire, until its direct incorporation as the Vilayet of Kosovo after the final fall of Serbia in 1459.

Look what source you have given all Cyrillic Serbian 
http://www.eparhijaprizren.com/sites...is_pregled.pdf

And we know *who controlled former Yugoslavia*, it was all Serbia and with its propaganda, they controlled everything even the army thats why they started the war in 1992 agains Croatia Slovenia and Bosnia thus intending to occupy and create *Great Serbia*. Plus everyone knows about the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo done by Serbia. Now imagine how big was this Propaganda in the year 1992 despite the fact that people had TV's and internet, now imagine the propaganda at 14th Century without TV nor internet....they could have written whatever they wanted, fairy tales and so fourth.... 


*4:*
Slavs are mentioned in the area since the 520s AD, with the Slav tribe of Sklavenoi settling the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum(Constantine Porphyrogenitus: De administrando imperio)...

Despite the facts that ancient tribe of *Dardani* which inhabited the region prior to the Roman conquest (28 BC–6 AD).
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the *Albanian word "dardha"* meaning pear. [1]*Bardyllis* was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from *Bardh(White) and Yll(Star)*.[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)*

*Check the posts above how *Ancient Dardania* had links with *Ancient Greece,* Genetics also support this why *Gheg Albanians* have highest E-V13 which was descend from south east Europe.*


*


Since 238, *Moesia* was constantly invaded or raided by the *Carpi,* and the Goths, who had already invaded Moesia in 250. You see here Moesia and not Dardania, and as we discussed before *serbs have very high Carpi genetics* and its exactly (moesia not Dardania) at the current far north Serbia. Also Carpi never invaded Dardania.*


*

1994, p. 74 
the Hungarian attack launched in 1183 with which Nemanja was allied [...] was able to conquer Kosovo and Metohija, including Prizren.

You see what i mean Nemanja Dynasty *conquer Kosovo,* (probably from the very north)


Now you see if we go back it was Serbian kingdom colonizing, before that Bulgarian kingdom, but we see Dardania before the both....now see what Dardania means....
The etymology of the name Dardania has been associated with the *Albanian word "dardha"* meaning pear. [1]*Bardyllis* was a king of Dardania whose name in Albanian literally means "White-Star" from *Bardh(White) and Yll(Star)*.[2] The region was inhabited by Illyrians,Celts[3][4] and Thracians.[4][5]
(sources are International)

And see what *Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars* 1913 Argues (Austria, France, Russia, Great Britain, Germany, USA)T

The various peoples who had occupied the different regions from the third to the sixth century, A. D. (*the indigenous population, Greek, Albanian, or Roumanian* having been either *driven out or assimilated*) served only to swell the armies or figure in the imposing titles assumed by the autocrats of all these, Servians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, conjoined in a sort of Imperial organization, a "Great Servia" or "Great Bulgaria." 

So Serbs are *not indigenous of these Soils*, (now if they colonized the area it doesn't mean it's Serbian)


i give you the answers multi quote by multi quote, you never answer my international sources, and instead you lack understanding and plus source Serbian Sources were we agreed not to (only international)

----------


## Yetos

@ noUseforaname

ok are you tired?
what are you trying to prove?
that Albanianas were before Serbians?
the αυτοχθονες crap of Rama?

tell me
1) were Albanians before Triballi τριβαλλοι?
2) is the Albanian Vallavan pasha the father of modern Albanians?
3) in which group Albanian language belong? in South European or in North European?
4) Hunjades what nationality he was? Avar or Cuman/Kuman?

don't answer with the last linguistic crap with the continuous adding mistake of input loan words that makes mistakes, and is very common in this forum, although there is a thread telling how mistaken is,

----------


## Yetos

@ garrick,

what are trying to prove?

1) that Serbs were before Thracians?
2) that Albanians came from Iran?
3) That last Serb died in Kossovo, and had Skopje as capital, but they moved North?

----------


## Garrick

> @ garrick,
> 
> what are trying to prove?
> 
> 1) that Serbs were before Thracians?
> 2) that Albanians came from Iran?
> 3) That last Serb died in Kossovo, and had Skopje as capital, but they moved North?


Yetos
Your questions are very good, but everyone can see why I wrote about this.

If someone looks up reason *I only replicated to Sile's thesis that haplogroups in Dardania didn't change*. I think haplogroups had changes, big changes because inhabitants changed completely.




> the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
> http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...530637007P.pdf
> 
> when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani





> Sile, yes today is such situation.
> 
> But in Middle century was completely different.
> 
> You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):
> 
> 13.000 Serb dwellings
> 75 Vlach dwellings
> 46 Albanian dwellings
> ...


In Middle age in Kosovo lived Serbs, almost 100%. Today situation is different. Because haplogroups of inhabitants of Kosovo in Middle time and today are different, I think my answer to Sile is correct.

I liked to discuss with Sile about it. But other member challenged what I wrote, he probably didn't know that Kosovo was Serbian land in Middle age and I gave hard proofs. But it took several pages our discussion.
...

Now my answers to your questions.

1) *I never wrote that Serbs were before Thracians*. I would like see where I wrote about something that someone can have this conclusion. My messages were to say that Albanians nothing to do with Pelasgians (no one proof about it) in discussions with members of forum in this thread. And of course I don't think Serbs are oldest in Europe.

2) I'm a supporter of theory that *Albanians originate from Eastern Anatoila/Caucasus* (not Iran). It is legitimate theory in science, I think French scholars first supposed about it. You can see in this forum several members from different countries think so. According some scientists Proto Albanian has similarity with Armenian and Iranian languages, and it developed between speakers of these languages (area Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and near). Today's Albanian has similarities with Armenian, North Iranian, even Caucasus languages which are no IE, (but this can be logical, there is scientific theory that IE languages created as mix between Eurasian languages and Caucasus languages). This is very interesting field of researching in different disciplines (genetic, linguistical, historical, etc.). I give evidence about it in different threads.

There are Albanians who claim that they are descendants of creators ancient cultures in Near East (even descendants of Ancient Egyptians, too). Theoretically it can be possible that E-V13 carriers sometimes had developed cultures in Near East, but South Asian tribes pushed toward north. 

Everyone can see that Ancient Armenians had R1b ht35 and E-V13 haplogrous. R1b ht35 carriers are creators of Proto Armenian. I think that R1b ht35 carriers are creators of Proto Albanian, too. It can be possible that some words of E-V13 carriers who mixed with R1b ht35 carriers, survived in Albanian. And, because they lived in near with speakers of forerunners of Iranian (and speakers of non IE Caucasus languages), words of these languages came in Proto Albanian.

In different classifications of IE authors put Albanian together with Armenian and Iranian, for example:



But speakers of Proto Albanian left their territory and probably they reached areas of present day Romania, Moldavia, Southern Western Ukraine. In these areas Albanian became close with Dacian, and later Romanian.

It is interesting, Dienekes in his respectable blog, wrote that it is possible J2 haplogroup came very late in Albanian substratum. It is possible when Albanians reached areas of present day Albania, that they assimilated Greek colonies in the Adriatic sea.

3) *This your question is right in center, excellent*.

Because, question is excellent but it is not a problem. I explained more times, I'm not nationalist, I am moderate Tito's fan (of course I'm noncommunist). I don't agree with Tito's politics in a lot of things. For example, Tito acted against Greece and he supported aspirants of Greater Macedonia what is nonsense. Inhabitans of today's Former republics of Macedonia have haplogroups similar as Serbs. Greater Macedonia as Macedonian communists and nationalists thought is died idea, and it is waste a time and energy for nothing.

But Tito had another idea which was not bad, although not withstood a test of time. Tito claimed brotherhood and unity Yugoslav people. It is much better than senseless hatred. Unfortunately across history religion divided Yugoslav people. They speak same language, they have same/similar haplogrops but they divided by religion.

We now come to key problem which Albanians here in forum or don't understand or try to pass over. I will give a example:



This is *Ali Pasha of Tepelana*. He is Albanian. He lived 1740-1822. He was appointed pasha, ruler of Sanjak of Ioanina. I will say here only that *his troops completely destroyed Moscopole, center of Aromanians (Tsintsars)*. Unfortunatelly, Aromanias mostly had to flee from region, and they went to Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. It is possible Aromanians today would have their state if Ali Pasha did not destroy their region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

Historians have attributed the decline of the city to a series of raids by Muslim Albanian bandits,[8] that almost destroyed the town in 1769 following the participation of the residents in the preparations for the Orlov Revolt in 1770,[9] and culminated with the abandoning and destruction of Moscopole in 1788.[10][11] Moscopole, once a prosperous city, was reduced to a small village by Ali Pasha.

...
Turks in Balkans found allies in people who converted to Islam. Very often problems for Balkan inhabitants (Christians, Atheists etc.) didn't make Turks, but their Balkan Muslim allies. Balkan Christians and Atheists have for centuries suffered greatly. Freedom of the Ottomans and their Balkan Muslim allies in 19 and in start of 20 century was a great epopoeja for a strugling Balkan nations.

But what we see today. 

*Is Turkey attempting to resurrect the Ottoman Empire*

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/22243

*Territories of the Balkans belong to Turkey*

http://www.blazingcatfur.ca/2013/12/...ong-to-turkey/

*Kosovo Is Turkey*

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...vo-turkey.html

Several days ago Turks and Albanians in Kosovo organized ceremony about Turkish conquest of Balkans and win of Turkish army in the Kosovo battle.

In the picture are Turkish and Albanian officials in front of Tomb of sultan Murat




...
Yetos, it is not problem that different peoples in the Balkans learn different histories. But if of that arises a tendency to return what was once (Muslim rule of the Balkans, Ottoman empire etc.) problem becomes much bigger. Now at the time of ISIS and construction of Oropba, even much more bigger.

...

But it is not the thread, and I will not speak about it. I will repeat again, we here waste energy and time, because Albanians nothing to do with Pelasgians how setter of thread tried to suggest in introduction.

...
Yetos, I hope I answered your questions. If I missed something, tell me, and I will respond.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Yetos;460777]




> ok are you tired?


Pretty tired actually, thanks for asking how about you?




> what are you trying to prove?


nothing much, just sourcing studies




> that Albanianas were before Serbians?


Read the genetic studies i have sourced and you will understand better




> the αυτοχθονες crap of Rama?


 Have you done your dna?....we could be brothers LOL

tell me



> 1) were Albanians before Triballi τριβαλλοι?


It said Tribali is just a tribe from hundreds and thousands of other tribes around the area, I read that Serbs might be Tribali, well first of all you cannot make up a large population from only one tribe and second whatever i have read Serbs are not Thracians (maybe 5% as everyone is mixed) but rather.... Serbinum was recorded from the Sarmatian (5th century BC) tribe Serboi 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...race_and_Dacia




> 2) is the Albanian Vallavan pasha the father of modern Albanians?


I have no idea what are you talking about




> 3) in which group Albanian language belong? in South European or in North European?


You have a lots of scientific studies here to read, hope you have read all of them.




> 4) Hunjades what nationality he was? Avar or Cuman/Kuman?


 I have no idea what are you talking about

----------


## Garrick

> And we know who controlled former Yugoslavia, it was all Serbia and with its propaganda


You are completely wrong. You don't know about socialist Yugoslavia. It was state of six republics. Serbs didn't have hegemony, president was not Serb, and all institutions were in favor of idea brotherhood and unity of Yugoslav nations. Serbian nationalists say that Yugoslavia was a dungeon of Serbian people. Yes, and Croatian nationalists didn't love SFR Yugoslavia, and other. But Yugoslav communists fought with nationalistic aspirations with a lot of success.

Bosnian scientists who translated Turkish defter of 1455 were scientists. About what pressures you speak. All data are in Turkey in Istanbul. Everyone who knows medieval Turkish can translate it. I read this document. Almost all names and surnames in this defter are Serbian. Turks know it, nobody is denied findings of Bosnian scientists. According this Turkish defter in Kosovo lived Serbs, 95.88% names are Serbian and 0.26% names are Albanian, and what. Albanian scientists know for defter, they read it.

It was 1455, situation changed after that. Serbs were allies with European Christian nations, Austrians, Hungarians and Balkan Christians. Turks and their Balkan Muslim allies terrorized Non-Muslim inhabitants, and Non-Muslims were fleeing. Do you know where in Europe Serbs settled because they had to have fled Kosovo since the Turkish terror. Not only Serbs, all Christians and Atheists suffered due Ottoman terror, Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Romanians etc. Fortunately, Christian people in the Balkans were free from Ottoman empire in 19th and in start of 20th century.

----------


## Yetos

guys plz stop

----------


## Dalmat

3000 years BC there was a culture in west Balkans what we call today Vučedol 


By modern standars, people today living in area covered by that culture share high genetic similarity

http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png



Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.

Those are facts

Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.

Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.
I would even dare to say that antic phrase tracko-ilirian is basically modern serbo-croatian.


Another funny fact that for sure will be interesting, as that Iliran tribes in western balkans as per Roman description of their territory, even today have provincial specific cultures customs and mentality in same borders as in antic times.
Croatians+ Bosnians are basically conglomerate of tribes in a sense even today, that more or less correspond to locality of major ilirian tribes as per Roman historians

----------


## Милан М.

> 3000 years BC there was a culture in west Balkans what we call today Vučedol 
> 
> 
> By modern standars, people today living in area covered by that culture share high genetic similarity
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We can say some similarities,The Dinaric region of ex-Yugoslavia comprises some of the most impenetrable country anywhere in Europe.Its inhabitants never submited to central authority,as local loyalties prevail and the fragmented terrain hinders contact even between adjacent communities.By the same token,resistance to the would be conqueror has always determined:the struggles of Pannonian Illyrians against the Romans and those of Montenegrins against the Turks were emulated by Yugoslavs during world war two  :Grin:

----------


## Diurpaneus

The innocent/extremely-developed culture of Cucuteni-TryPolsce(I guess they had haplos) peacefully...


"Huns, Slavs and Antes, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/proc/shp/shp21.htm

...expanded southwards after launching Yersiniaization.



The few remainig...


"For in each of these incursions, I should say, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."



... pale/ruthless/raw/E-V13-lucky Vlachs were kidnapped for further research.



They were,initially, urbanized/decent people,but the Trypillian jealousy made its place. 


Latin "monumentum",Romanian "mormant"(not "Tumulus",but a hi-tech "grave" with a fancy slab).

Latin "pavimentum",Romanian "pamant"("ground","earth",which for the Early Romanians was kinda stony,so the Trypillians had invited them to go to the(ir)country,just to escape...the abstractization).



P.S.

Just for two(non-European guys):

"I'm not trying to cause a big s-s-sensation
Just escaped from abstractization"

----------


## Милан М.

The Vlachs were sheepherders,mountanious tribes,like the Albanians, would rather suppose them some Dacian origin.

----------


## Diurpaneus

No offense,the above post was not addressed to you.As far as I know,you are a European.
I don't hate Serbs,on the contrary,you misunderstood me.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> The Vlachs were sheepherders,mountanious tribes,like the Albanians, would rather suppose them some Dacian origin.


They BECAME shepherds,indeed,but if we rewind further back...
Romanian inherited plenty of agricultural words(regarding farming) from Latin.



In this case,"Dacians" and "Bessi" are geographic,not ethnic,notions:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...0bessi&f=false


"Latin dominance along the Lower Danube, in the military bases, towns and extramural settlements near legionary fortresses and auxiliary forts, is unquestionable for the entire period of Roman rule. The rapid Romanization of this zone in the 1st century AD was due to the army and veterans settling in the region, but also civil colonists originating from Italy. Greek-speaking newcomers appearing with time in ever larger numbers from the Greek-language provinces in the Balkans and the East adopted Latin out of necessity. This was apparently the case of the poorly or not at all Hellenized Thracians (_Lai_ and _Bessi_) moved to Dobrogea from Thrace, as well as of the _Getai_ resettled from beyond the Danube and the craftsmen and traders flowing into Moesia in more or less unorganized fashion, mainly from the eastern, but sometimes also the western reaches of the Empire.

Attested in this group are, for example, stonemasons, shoe-makers, fullers, also eye specialists among the physicians. Latin-speaking veterans were also strongly rooted in the area, having started to stream in already in the end of the 1st century and settling in the vicinity of army camps, but also in well watered areas with good quality soils in the hinterland of the Roman limes, chiefly around the later town of Nicopolis ad Istrum. The situation continued in the 2nd century with veterans of local origin joining in once local recruitment into the army took on greater importance under Hadrian and later."


http://www2.rgzm.de/Transformation/B...rienVIIIEN.htm


"Miracula testifies, hundreds of thousands of refugees, who had escaped from the teeth of death, left their fertile lands in Moesia, Panonnia, Mediterranian Dacia and Naissus to settle 
in Dardania and the mountainous regions of Prevalitania, in the mounts. "

http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1135550894/Contemporaneous+Proof+of+Slavic+Invasion


I can assure you that,even as shepherds,they weren't fairy-queens:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMj...20lamb&f=false

----------


## Милан М.

> They BECAME shepherds,indeed,but if we rewind further back...
> Romanian inherited plenty of agricultural words(regarding farming) from Latin.
> 
> 
> 
> In this case,"Dacians" and "Bessi" are geographic,not ethnic,notions:
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...0bessi&f=false
> 
> ...


Vlad Draculesti is my hero  :Cool V:

----------


## noUseForAname

> You are completely wrong. You don't know about socialist Yugoslavia. It was state of six republics. Serbs didn't have hegemony, president was not Serb, and all institutions were in favor of idea brotherhood and unity of Yugoslav nations. Serbian nationalists say that Yugoslavia was a dungeon of Serbian people. Yes, and Croatian nationalists didn't love SFR Yugoslavia, and other. But Yugoslav communists fought with nationalistic aspirations with a lot of success.



Yes all were in favour of idea of brotherhood unity except Serbian state (propaganda) (am not saying all population), they brainwashed their own people....now you are telling me Serbian state favoured brotherhood?.....you are blaming Croatia now?

These are undoubtedly *facts* from international Hague Tribunal - (all high rank state officials and not individuals) - list for *only high level state officials*.
Ethnic cleansing in Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo.



Died before trial complete
Slobodan Milošević
*Serb, president of Serbia*, president of Yugoslavia
Indicted for *genocide; deportation; murder; persecutions;*  *extermination*; on political, racial or religious grounds in *Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia*
Died in detention on 11 March 2006.[66]



*President of Serbia* *from* 26 December *1990* (He was the *main head Commander of all*), read more below
http://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan...lobodan_en.pdf

Sentenced by ICTY
Vlastimir Đorđević
*Serb, army general*
*Deportation, persecution and murder* of *Kosovo Albanians*
Sentenced to 27 years' imprisonment on 23 February 2011. Upon appeal, in 2014, his sentence was reduced to 18 years.[36]



Sentenced by ICTY
Nikola Šainović
*Serb, Prime Minister of Serbia*
Charges of *war crimes, deportation and forcible transfer, murder and persecution.*
Sentenced to 22 years' imprisonment on 26 February 2009.[57]



Sentenced by ICTY
Sreten Lukić
Serb, *Serbian police general*
Command authority for* crimes against humanity* in *Kosovo*
Sentenced to 22 years' imprisonment on 26 February 2009; appeal filed.[57]



At trial
Vojislav Šešelj
*Serb, President of the Serbian Radical Party*(SRS)
Three counts of crimes against humanity; six counts of violations of the laws or customs of war
At trial.[89]



Sentenced by ICTY
Ljubiša Beara
Bosnian Serb, *colonel* of Military Police
Srebrenica massacre; also war crimes in Žepa
Sentenced to life imprisonment.[17]



Sentenced by ICTY
Milan Babić
Croatian *Serb, prime minister* of Republika Srpska Krajina
For his part in ethnic cleansing in Croatia
Sentenced to 13 years' imprisonment on 18 July 2005.[8] He was found dead in his prison cell in The Hague in March 2006, an apparent suicide.



Sentenced by ICTY
Vidoje Blagojević
Bosnian Serb, *Bosnian Serb Army officer*
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 9 May 2007.[18] On 3 February 2012, Blagojević was granted early release, effective 22 December 2012.



Sentenced by ICTY
Ljubomir Borovčanin
*Bosnian Serb, Commander* of the Republika Srpska Ministry of Interior Special Police
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 17 years on 10 June 2010.[17]



Sentenced by ICTY
Radoslav Brđanin
Bosnian Serb, president of the crisis staff of theAutonomous Region of Krajina
Indicted in connection with deportations, murders, torture, and persecution in theAutonomous Region of Krajina
Sentenced to 32 years originally, his sentence was reduced to 30 years on appeal in 2007, which he is serving in Denmark.[24]



Sentenced by ICTY
Ranko Ćešić
Bosnian Serb, member of the Intervention Squad in the Reservist Corps of the Bosnian Serb police force
Murder and sexual abuse in the Luka camp
Sentenced to 18 years' imprisonment on 11 March 2004; granted early release on 30 April 2014 (effective 25 May 2014).[27]



Sentenced by ICTY
Miroslav Deronjić
Bosnian Serb, president of theBratunac Crisis Staff
For attack on the village of Glogova
Sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment on 25 July 2005.[32] While serving his sentence, Deronjić died in hospital in 2007, aged 52, from cancer.



Sentenced by ICTY
Damir Došen
Bosnian Serb, shift commander at the Keraterm prison camp
Keraterm camp
Sentenced to 5 years' imprisonment on 13 November 2001.[34]



Died before trial complete
Đorđe Đukić
Bosnian Serb, member of the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army
Indicted for shelling civilian targets in Sarajevo
Died on 18 May 1996 during provisional release.[37]



Transferred to national courts
Dušan Fuštar
Bosnian Serb, shift commander at Keraterm prison camp
Persecution, inhumane acts and murder of non-Serb Bosnians around Prijedor
Case transferred to Bosnia and Herzegovina on 9 May 2006. Sentenced by the Bosnian Court to 9 years' imprisonment.[9]



Died before trial complete
Dragan Gagović
Bosnian Serb, chief of police in Foča
For his role in persecutions in Partizan Sports Hall detention centre
Died before transfer to the Tribunal.[40]



Sentenced by ICTY
Stanislav Galić
Bosnian Serb, commander of Sarajevo Romanija Corps
Indicted for shelling and sniping of Sarajevo
Sentenced to life imprisonment on 30 November 2006.[41]



At trial
Goran Hadžić
Croatian Serb, president of Republic of Serbian Krajina
Persecution, murder, torture deportation and wanton destruction in Serbian Krajina
At trial.[42]



Died before trial complete
Janko Janjić
Bosnian Serb, sub-commanders of the military police
Gang rape, torture and enslavement at Foča prison camp
Died before transfer to the Tribunal.[40]



Transferred to national courts
Gojko Janković
Bosnian Serb
Gang rape, torture and enslavement at Foča prison camp
Transferred to the State Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 8 December 2005. Sentenced by the Bosnian Court to 34 years' imprisonment on 19 November 2007.[44]

Sentenced by ICTY
Goran Jelisić
Bosnian Serb, held a position at Luka camp
Indicted for genocide, murder, plunder, and inhumane acts at camps in Luka and Brcko
Sentenced to 40 years' imprisonment on 5 July 2001.[45] His wife, Monika Karan-Ilić, a native of Brcko, she had been in custody since 21 December 2011. She was found guilty of having participated in torture, inhumane treatment and infliction of suffering on Bosniak and Croat civilians in the Luka camp and Brcko police station between May and June 1992, when she was a teenager. Her sentence was reduced to to two-and-a-half years of prison in 2013.[46]



Sentenced by ICTY
Miodrag Jokić
*Serb, admiral in Yugoslav Navy*
Siege of Dubrovnik
Sentenced to 7 years’ imprisonment on 30 August 2005.[47



At trial
Radovan Karadžić
*Bosnian Serb, former President* of Republika Srpska
Genocide, Crimes against humanity, Violations of the laws or customs of war and Grave breaches of the Geneva conventions of 1949
At trial.[48]



Transferred to national courts
Vladimir Kovačević
Montenegrin Serb, Yugoslav army commander
Siege of Dubrovnik
Case transferred to Serbia on 17 November 2006; initially ruled mentally unfit to stand trial.[52]



Sentenced by ICTY
Momčilo Krajišnik
*Bosnian Serb, prime minister* of Republika Srpska
Genocide
Sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment on 17 March 2009; granted early release on 1 September 2013.[53]



Sentenced by ICTY
Milorad Krnojelac
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander
Gang rape, torture and enslavement at Foča prison camp
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 17 September 2003.[54]



Sentenced by ICTY
Radislav Krstić
Bosnian Serb, *Bosnian Serb Army general*
Genocide
Sentenced to 35 years' imprisonment on 19 April 2004.[55]



Sentenced by ICTY
Vladimir Lazarević
Serb, Army general
Charges of war crimes, deportation and forcible transfer, murder and persecution.
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 26 February 2009.[57]



Sentenced by ICTY
Milan Lukić
Bosnian Serb, commander of a paramilitary group called "Avengers" or "White Eagles"
Indicted for killing of up to 100 Muslims in vicinity of Višegrad
Sentenced to life imprisonment on 20 July 2009.[58]



Sentenced by ICTY
Milan Martić
Croatian Serb, prime minister of Republika Srpska Krajina
Attacks on Zagreb; see Prosecutor v. Milan Martić
Sentenced to 35 years' imprisonment on 8 October 2008.[62]



At trial
*R*atko Mladić
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian *Serb Army commander* of the main staff
Genocide, complicity in genocide, crimes against humanity, and violations of the laws and customs of war
At trial.[67]



Sentenced by ICTY
Darko Mrđa
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb police unit commander

Sentenced to 17 years' imprisonment on 31 March 2004; granted early release on 10 October 2013.[68]



Sentenced by ICTY
Mile Mrkšić
Croatian Serb, *Yugoslav Army colonel,* laterRepublika Srpska KrajinaArmy commander
Indictment in relation to Vukovar
Sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment on 5 May 2009.[69]



Sentenced by ICTY
Dragan Nikolić
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander
Sušica camp
Sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment on 4 February 2005.[70]



Sentenced by ICTY
Drago Nikolić
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army officer
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 35 years' imprisonment on 10 June 2010.[17]



Sentenced by ICTY
Momir Nikolić
Bosnian Serb, Assistant Commander of VRS Bratunac brigade
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment on 8 March 2006.[71]



Sentenced by ICTY
Dragan Obrenović
Bosnian Serb, VRS lieutenant colonel
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 17 years' imprisonment on 10 December 2003.[72]



Sentenced by ICTY
Dragoljub Ojdanić
*Serb, Chief of the General Staff of theYugoslav Army*, Federal Defence minister of Yugoslavia
Charges of war crimes, deportation and forcible transfer, murder and persecution.
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 26 February 2009.[57]



Sentenced by ICTY
Vinko Pandurević
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army general
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to 13 years' imprisonment on 10 June 2010; granted early release on 9 April 2015.[17]



Sentenced by ICTY
*N*ebojša Pavković
*Serb, Chief of the General Staff of theYugoslav Army*
Charges of war crimes, deportation and forcible transfer, murder and persecution.
Sentenced to 22 years' imprisonment on 26 February 2009.[57]



Sentenced by ICTY
Biljana Plavšić
Bosnian *Serb, former* *Presiden*t of Republika Srpska
Crimes against humanity [_clarification needed_]
Sentenced to 11 years' imprisonment on 27 February 2003; released after serving two thirds of her sentence.[75]



Sentenced by ICTY
Vujadin Popović
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army lieutenant colonel
Srebrenica massacre
Sentenced to life imprisonment on 10 June 2010.[17]



Died before trial complete
Željko "Arkan" Ražnatović
*Serb, paramilitary leader*

Died before transfer to the Tribunal.[78]



Sentenced by ICTY
Duško Sikirica
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb prison commander
Keraterm camp
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 13 November 2001.[34]



Sentenced by ICTY
Milomir Stakić
Bosnian Serb, former mayor ofPrijedor in northern Bosnia
Persecution, inhumane acts and murder of non-Serb Bosnians around Prijedor
Sentenced to 40 years' imprisonment on 22 March 2006.[84]



Sentenced by ICTY
Mićo Stanišić[85]
Bosnian Serb, former *Bosnian Serb interior minister*
Crimes against humanity; violations of the laws or customs of war [_clarification needed_]
Sentenced to 22 years' imprisonment[86]



Died before trial complete
Vlajko Stojiljković
*Serb, former Serbian interior minister*
Indicted with Slobodan Milošević
Died before transfer to the Tribunal.[57]



Sentenced by ICTY
Pavle Strugar
Montenegrin, *Yugoslav Army general*
Siege of Dubrovnik
Sentenced to 7.5 years' imprisonment on 17 July 2008.[87]



Sentenced by ICTY
Veselin Šljivančanin
Montenegrin, *Yugoslav army battalion commander*
Ovčara massacre after the Battle of Vukovar
Sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment on 8 December 2010.[69]



Sentenced by ICTY
Duško Tadić
Bosnian Serb,Serbian Democratic Party leader in Kozarac and member of paramilitary force
Omarska camp
Sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment on 26 January 2000; granted early release from prison on 17 July 2008.[21]



Sentenced by ICTY
Miroslav Tadić
Bosnian Serb, chairman of the Bosanki Šamac "Exchange Commission"[_clarification needed_]
Bosanski Šamac war crimes
Sentenced to 8 years' imprisonment on 17 October 2003.[64]



Died before trial complete
Momir Talić
Bosnian Serb, general of 1st Krajina Corps
Genocide in the Krajina case
Died on 28 May 2003 during provisional release.[90]



Sentenced by ICTY
Stevan Todorović
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb police head for the municipality of Bosanski Šamac
Bosanski Šamac war crimes
Sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment on 31 July 2001.[64]



Transferred to national courts
Savo Todović
Bosnian Serb, prison commander
Gang rape, torture and enslavement at Foča prison camp
Transferred to the State Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 3 October 2006; sentenced by the Bosnian Court to 12.5 years' imprisonment on 28 February 2008.[77]



Sentenced by ICTY
Zdravko Tolimir
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb Army assistant commander
Crimes against humanity; violations of the laws or customs of war
Sentenced to life imprisonment on 12 December 2012. Appeals court dismissed several counts of extermination and genocide, but left sentence of life imprisonment in place.[92]



Transferred to national courts
Milorad Trbić
Bosnian Serb, Captain in military police
Srebrenica massacre
Transferred to the State Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina on 11 June 2007. Sentenced by the Bosnian Court to 30 years' imprisonment.[93]



Sentenced by ICTY
Mitar Vasiljević
Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Serb paramilitary
Murder and crimes against humanity in vicinity of Višegrad
Sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment on 25 February 2004. On 6 July 2004, Vasiljević was transferred to Austria to serve his sentence. Credit was given for time served since 25 January 2000. On 12 March 2010, he was granted early release.[94]



Sentenced by ICTY
Simo Zarić
Bosnian Serb, former major ofŠamac
Bosanski Šamac war crimes
Sentenced to 6 years' imprisonment on 17 October 2003.[64]



Sentenced by ICTY
Stojan Župljanin
Bosnian Serb, senior police official in the Autonomous Region of Krajina
Indicted for persecution, wanton destruction, deportation, torture, murder in Krajina
Sentenced to 22 years imprisonment[86]

----------


## Garrick

> Yes all were in favour of idea of brotherhood unity except Serbian state (propaganda) (am not saying all population), they brainwashed their own people....now you are telling me Serbian state favoured brotherhood?.....you are blaming Croatia now?


Do not put words that I did not say. I didn't blame Croatia or any other Yugoslav nation. SFR Yugoslavia was respectable country. I'm Tito's fan, I appreciate Yugoslav nations. Croatia is very beautiful country and I wrote about beauty of Istria, of course I will write about other parts of Croatia, I toured the whole country, including some islands. Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, have similar genetics, and the language is practically same, we understand each other.

----------


## Garrick

> guys plz stop


You are right 100%, I am trying to stop.

We here waste time, because connection between Albanians comparing to Pelasgians doesn't exist, how member who set this thread tried to suggest in introduction.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Do not put words that I did not say. I didn't blame Croatia or any other Yugoslav nation. SFR Yugoslavia was respectable country. I'm Tito's fan, I appreciate Yugoslav nations. Croatia is very beautiful country and I wrote about beauty of Istria, of course I will write about other parts of Croatia, I toured the whole country, including some islands. Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, have similar genetics, and the language is practically same, we understand each other.



How can you say than Serbian State (not all population) was for the *brotherhood* in SFR when you saw above all those *high level Serb state officials* sentenced by International *Hague* Tribunal?

----------


## DejaVu

0% relevant information about topic.
Close this thread at once.

----------


## Ike

No need to close. Just stop indoctrinated Albanians post in E-V13 threads, and that's good enough.

----------


## Garrick

> No offense,the above post was not addressed to you.As far as I know,you are a European.
> I don't hate Serbs,on the contrary,you misunderstood me.


Serbs are Europeans, they fought for European interests over the centuries

According to Eupedia haplogroup I, Old European, in Serbia is 42%, according some studies even 48%.

Serbs and Romanians are close people, genetic similarities are significant.

----------


## noUseForAname

> You are completely wrong. You don't know about socialist Yugoslavia. It was state of six republics. Serbs didn't have hegemony, president was not Serb, and all institutions were in favor of idea brotherhood and unity of Yugoslav nations. Serbian nationalists say that Yugoslavia was a dungeon of Serbian people. Yes, and Croatian nationalists didn't love SFR Yugoslavia, and other. But Yugoslav communists fought with nationalistic aspirations with a lot of success.



FYI, i didn't start this (cause its of the topic), i told you before no political discussion PLEASE when you said Slobodan Miloshevic has E-V13 etc....but you started with your later funny propaganda. (at least if you put international transparent sources it would be ok)

Ok so i guess you don't have an answer, cause you don't need to, international war crimes tribunal already sentenced all the key figures of Serbian state. At least you should deny and note that everything what happened after 1985 in Yugoslavia was definitely not an approach to brotherhood by an Serbian State official (not saying about the population).

And we agreed not to place sources of say (only of you country or neighbours) but rather international because they are usually more transparent and we learn more this way.....about the turkish defter 1445 and bosnian/Serbian i have an answer....next post...

and for The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, i don't even want to go through cause it's pure only serbian and serbian sources....

----------


## noUseForAname

> *Turkish defter of Brankovics land
> *
> *95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin*,
> 1.90% of Roman origin, (Vlachs or Aromanians)
> 1.56% of uncertain origin,
> *0.26% of Albanian origin*,
> 0.25% of Greek origin, etc.
> 
> The mostly names in defter are:
> ...



Although the source is Serb and Bosnian source in SFR period, i will represent you how you have completely *misrepresented the source* yet again (apart from the other one when said Albanian language came from Beluchi indic/Iranian)


You can see from the map below the approximate current Kosovo borders, and as seen that other parts were taken into account (south east Serbia, south west Serbia, South central Serbia, North Montenegro), we can say its very close to all Kosovo Vilajet 1400 (excluding the Bulgarian part/inhabitants in south easter part of the map)


map brankovic.jpg
(red circles major cities), far western part (close to Albania left uncounted)


13,600 males in overall *480 villages*
13,600 males (you can see all the peoples names are typical Serbian up to 98%) — Therefore it only represents ethnic serb demography (not others ethnicities)

you can see Balaban, Banja etc villages - 4 people only each (on whole Village) (all Serbian only)
278-810ad48977.jpg


lets say we double up males females, 27,000 Serbs overall

you claim *total population of 480 villages* is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000?, 

This means for every village only *56* inhabitants?….is that even possible?…its as for an average house (5 people), *11 houses* for one village?


Lets say a village would have at least 900 people (male female) - 180 houses (5 average)
We have overall *432,000* inhabitants (excluding Bulgarians see map in black lines)

373,000 Albanians
27,000 Serbs
32,000 others, Bulgarians, turks vallachen, greeks.


This is actually *consistent with the Danish source* of Kosovo Vilajet Population
very close to the below (they even gave more % of Serbs)
*
Vilajet Kossowo:*
418.000
Mahomedaansche Albaneezen

9.000
Mahomedaansche Turken

14.000
Mahomedaansche Bulgaren

250.000
Christene Bulgaren

113.000
Orthodoxe Serviërs

900
Orthodoxe Wallachen

200
Orthodoxe Grieken

22.000
Gemengd




KaartGodsdBalkan.jpg



The data (you have given) consist of only one ethnic background* (serbian)*, (and this is why it would make pretty much sense)


Therefore *it does not represent* all other ethnic populations: as Albanian Bulgarian Serbian Greek Romanian etc....




https://www.scribd.com/doc/98035320/...Iz-1455-Godine
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html

----------


## Ike

> and for The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, i don't even want to go through cause it's pure only serbian and serbian sources....


What did you expect? Albanian or British sources of 14th century Kosovo?




> This is actually *consistent with the Danish source* of Kosovo Vilajet Population
> very close to the below (they even gave more % of Serbs)
> *
> Vilajet Kossowo:*
> 418.000
> Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
> 
> 9.000
> Mahomedaansche Turken
> ...


Yes, this is correct, but this is 1912. which is 600 years later. 






Now let me ask you another thing. According to Danish chart there was total of 827.000 inhabitants in *1912*. of which:

Albanians - 418.000 (*51%*)
Others - 409.000 (*49%*)


Today we have (http://www.beinkosovo.com/en/kosovo-population):

Albanians - 88%
Others - 12 %


What did you do with all the Christene Bulgaren, Orthodoxe Servies and others? Why did we have 53% Muslims just 100 years ago, and now we have 90% of them? What are the magic conditions in which number of Albanians had risen from 418.000 to approximately 1.800.000 in a hundred of years? And please open a separate thread if you intend to reply, because this has absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Balkan population.

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname

You're trying to confuse readers, you putting data from 1912, Kosovo and Metohija: 51% Albanians (1% more than 1/2).

Can you compute time difference between 1455 (and earlier) and 1912.

In Middle time there are no Albanians in the Kosovo and Metohija, it is Serbian land.

Due to terrible retribution made by Turks and Muslim Balkan allies Serbs had to leave their lands, small numbers of Serbs converted to Islam.

Albanians in greater numbers began to settle in Kosovo and Metohija in 17th century, it is history and Albanian historians know it.

You can't stop disscussion about things which that has nothing to do with the thread.

*And the reason is because new scientific findings are not what you want*.




> E-V13 is spread all over Europe
> little is known how and when this happened
> *there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
> the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
> 3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
> because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago*





> When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture. As for the Near Eastern haplogroups, it has since transpired that G2a was the main lineage of Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. But I am still convinced that E1b1b, J1 and T1a were also present among Neolithic farmers. 
> 
> *The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa.* That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. *E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders.* Therefore I doubt that E-V13 was already present in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the Neolithic period.
> 
> As for R1a and R1b, this is more difficult. There surely could be some of them in the eastern Cucuteni-Tripillian, especially in the later phase when they started advancing into the Pontic steppe, due to the proximity and possible intermingling with Yamna people. But I seriously doubt that they would more than occasional trace lineages. The way I see it is that the Corded Ware expansion, which started in the northern forest-steppe zone of the Yamna horizon, absorbed the remnant of the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture. So as soon as R1a and R1b Corded Ware people moved _en masse_ to western Ukraine, the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture collapsed.
> 
> 
> One possible alternative scenario is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture was really an almost purely R1a or R1b culture. This is *very unlikely based on archaeological evidence*, but we could imagine two possible scenarios in which the Cucuteni-Tripillian is one of the cradles of Proto-Indo-European people : 
> 
> ...



If Maciamo and Bicicleur are right E-V13 carriers arrived in Europe from North Africa (Berber land) via Gibraltar. They came to the Balkans very late.

----------


## Maleth

> If Maciamo and Bicicleur are right E-V13 carriers arrived in Europe from North Africa (Berber land) via Gibraltar. They came to the Balkans very late.


So far I only read Maciamo with this theory :). After scanning the internet I did not find it anywhere else. Of course everything is possible and never say never, but its obvious that the mainstream understanding at present is the below. If you do find reliable sources to state something different I will appreciate to pass on link or post. Many thanks.



However, in 2010, researchers have studied the genetic diversity of modern populations to throw light on the processes involved in these ancient events. The new study, funded by the Wellcome Trust, examines the diversity of the Y chromosome. Mark Jobling, who led the research, said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosome lineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows a gradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100% frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed, how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is." The results suggested that the lineageR1b1b2 (R-M269), *like* *E1b1b or J lineages, spread together with farming from the Near East. Priorarchaeological[23][24][25][26][27][28] and metrological[29][30] studies had arrived at similar conclusions in support of the migrationist model.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe

*

----------


## Garrick

> So far I only read Maciamo with this theory :). After scanning the internet I did not find it anywhere else. Of course everything is possible and never say never, but its obvious that the mainstream understanding at present is the below. If you do find reliable sources to state something different I will appreciate to pass on link or post. Many thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> However, in 2010, researchers have studied the genetic diversity of modern populations to throw light on the processes involved in these ancient events. The new study, funded by the Wellcome Trust, examines the diversity of the Y chromosome. Mark Jobling, who led the research, said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosome lineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows a gradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100% frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed, how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is." The results suggested that the lineageR1b1b2 (R-M269), *like* *E1b1b or J lineages, spread together with farming from the Near East. Priorarchaeological[23][24][25][26][27][28] and metrological[29][30] studies had arrived at similar conclusions in support of the migrationist model.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe
> 
> *


Maleth, I am only trying to get back to the thread. You can see pages and pages nothing to do with thread. I hope we have materials to discuss about thread now.

----------


## Maleth

> Maleth, I am only trying to get back to the thread. You can see pages and pages nothing to do with thread. I hope we have materials to discuss about thread now.


The original title of the thread has been worn out and exhausted over and over again, and nothing new is coming out. Just repetitions. I think Yetos explained it good. All there is left now the usual arguments that we have been hearing ad naseum Albania vs Serbia. Its just going round in circles. But I feel you are both having lots of fun and enjoying it. Apparently looking into old posts, its not even a recent thing but an ongoing venture. Im happy for you both. I would still would be interested in papers with links and posts in regards to Maciamos theory that E-V13 migrated from North Africa. I would highly appreciate it as Im quite interested in the subject, but I cannot locate the North African crossing to the Balkans anywhere.

you can reply here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

Many thanks :)

----------


## Милан М.

In 1854, an Austrian diplomat and Albanian language specialist, Johann Georg von Hahn, identified the Pelasgian language with Ur-Albanian. This theory has been rejected by modern scholars but is still supported by some Albanian nationalists.  :Good Job:

----------


## Ike

> . All there is left now the usual arguments that we have been hearing ad naseum Albania vs Serbia.


This has nothing to do with Albania vs. Serbia, but it is indoctrinated Albanians against history and common sense. It is a shame that more other nationalities don't stand against them. It seems like most of the people just don't care about it, and maybe even Serbians wouldn't pay much attention if it wasn't about Kosovo for which they have strong cultural and historical relations. 

I can't guess instead of Serbians, but if it was about some other part of Serbia, they probably wouldn't be bothered as much, and cultural propaganda of Albanians would prevail the facts. In order to manipulate these facts more, they are polluting all the history threads since the beginning of internet. They have no written records older then ~100 years, they had no schools, history books, absolutely nothing at all, but they claim nonsense all over internet. If they are so convinced in that story, why are they too lazy to grab a shovel and dig some evidence? Is it so hard?

----------


## noUseForAname

> Now let me ask you another thing. According to Danish chart there was total of 827.000 inhabitants in *1912*. of which:
> Albanians - 418.000 (*51%*)
> Others - 409.000 (*49%*)
> Today we have 
> 
> Albanians - 88%
> Others - 12 %



Today Kosovo borders are at least *3 times smaller* than Kosovo Vilajet, have a closer look....

ks.jpg



12.jpg


You can see *Bulgarians* are at the south east of Kosovo Vilajet thats why they have 250,000, and Serbs 113,000 probably at the north side of Montenegro (see the map)

----------


## noUseForAname

> You're trying to confuse readers, you putting data from 1912, Kosovo and Metohija: 51% Albanians (1% more than 1/2).
> Can you compute time difference between 1455 (and earlier) and 1912.
> In Middle time there are no Albanians in the Kosovo and Metohija, it is Serbian land.



There is only one Question:


You claim *total population of 480 villages is 28,000* and in all of them are Serbs 27,000? 

This means *for every village only 56 inhabitants*?….is that even possible?…its as for an average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village?

----------


## Ike

You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.


Considering Vilayet, you were right, the borders are different. But the situation is even worse. Austrains claim that in 1899. there was ~180.000 Albanians on Kosovo, and we know that 100 years later there was ~1.800.000. That's like 10x in a 100 years :)

P.S. *Mods* should transport these last 3 pages into a new thread - "Kosovo ethnic composition AD", starting selective somewhere around #363.

----------


## noUseForAname

> You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.



Nope, have a closer look, the study *includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).

*Stepan. Sin Branislava - *"Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
*Durad, sin Hrle....etc


278-810ad48977.jpg



So in the *Village* Maqar:* Total 4 males:* Sin "son" Branislav, Sin "son" Hrle - And Stepan, Durad.


You think 4 inhabitants include the whole Village?...and Concluding from all 480 Villages Serbs are 98%?


It is a total *misrepresentation* of the study, the *study was de facto based* on representing *ONLY* one ethnic background (*Serbs*) 



Hopefully this clears up you understanding....

----------


## Garrick

noUseForAname

In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century there are no Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it, there are data in Istanbul. For change the situation in Kosovo and Metohija Albanians are grateful to the Turks. Therefore when Turkish president Erdogan says in Kosovo in front of Albanians "Kosovo is Turkey" he receives ovation and applause from Albanians:




...

But, back to the topic. You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger. And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.

Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.

----------


## noUseForAname

> noUseForAname
> 
> In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century *there are no Albanians in Kosovo* and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it,



Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445


You claim *total population of 480 villages is 28,000* and in all of them are Serbs 27,000

For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village


*ANY THOUGHTS....?*



The map and villages are pretty large, considering the current Kosovo and South west/east Serbia.


map brankovic.jpg

----------


## Garrick

> Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445
> 
> 
> You claim *total population of 480 villages is 28,000* and in all of them are Serbs 27,000
> 
> For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village
> 
> 
> *ANY THOUGHTS....?*


Again, you're confused.

All is clear, Turks numbered only heads of households. It was a matter for tax to them.

In this defter is 14,087 household heads, 13,607 adult males household heads and 480 widows.

Turks wrote son of somebody because identification. For example: Ranko son of Miroslav is household head. He may have a lot of household members, in that time families were big.

Here is the one village (household heads):

Village Ahovac

Ranko son of Miroslav
Radenko son of Radislav
Radislav
Djuradj brother of Ranko
Vlkota son of Radislav
Pribil son of Miroslav
Dobracin son of Radenko
Bozic son of Nikola
Jovan son of Pribilo
Nejak
Belosava widow

Houses 10, widows 1
Income: 986 (akches)

You can see, they numbered 10 household heads in this village (no 10 inhabitants of village). The number of inhabitants is much bigger, but to the Turks for tax was important household head.

Also, you can see here Serbian names. 95.88% of all names in the whole defter are Serbian.

Result this defter is:


13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn1 Croat dwelling. 

...
Of course, good question is how many people could be under one household head. It depends if there were one-family household or something else. It is middle age, not today's situation.

Looking the history books, family in Serbia had 6-10 members. If someone counts children and older people, all members, it could be more for one-family household. But it was much more in cooperatives (more-family household) which are comprised relatives greater or lesser degree of closeness. Therefore it is not easy to determine multiplier with which to multiply 14,087. 

...
That Serbs converted to Islam after Kosovo battle today Serbs would have over 95% of Kosovo and Metohija population. Probably a large part of Balkan would be Serbian and there would no division between Serbs and Bosniacs. But Serbs have chosen much more harder way. They remained Christians no matter how difficult it was under rule of Muslim invaders. Not only Serbs, and Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Romanians chose this difficult path preserving Christian faith.

But Albanians relatively quickly massively converted to Islam becoming spearhead of Turkish rule in the Balkans. Many Muslim leaders, aghas, pashas, beys etc. who Balkans Christians and Atheists remembered because they brought them suffering, were ethnic Albanians, not Turks.
...

And it can be political, but only one short question, what do you think which nation is in the top by giving people to ISIS (relative to population).
...

Again, we should discuss about E-V13 and Pelasgians.

----------


## Ike

> Nope, have a closer look, the study *includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).
> 
> *Stepan. Sin Branislava - *"Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
> *Durad, sin Hrle....etc
> 
> 
> 278-810ad48977.jpg
> 
> 
> ...


Once again, you don't read well. I don't know what have you attached up there, but this is census of 1455:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_d...vi%C4%87_lands





> It is a total *misrepresentation* of the study, the *study was de facto based* on representing *ONLY* one ethnic background (*Serbs*) 
> Hopefully this clears up you understanding....


It clears up that you are misinterpreting the study. WHY THE HELL??? What's your problem?

----------


## Maleth

> But, back to the topic.


Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.





> You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger.


Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?




> And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.


There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate




> Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.


Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.

----------


## Garrick

Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.




> Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?


We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/




> There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate


I was very precise, yes in this forum is confusion. If you want to set what members of forum wrote about E-V13, someone who is not in the forum would be in confusion. I think it is consequence because we have no enough knowledge about expansion of this haplogroup. I told you, it is possible that I'm carrier of this haplogroup. I'm "multinational", I have origin from three nations. And scientists write different about this haplogroup. You can see different times in different scientific paper. Scientists often speaks of post neolithic expansion haplogroup of E-V13 in Europe. 





> Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.


We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings.

----------


## Maleth

> Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.


Oh jolly thanks  :Smile: 




> I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.


 :Thinking: 18 Pages and hardly anything about Palasgians can be painful.




> We have:
> 
> NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
> K8 NG21-10
> ANE 0
> South_Eurasian 0
> ENF 41.1
> East_Eurasian 0
> WHG 58.9
> ...


much much more sampling is needed. It does not surprise me at all if I haplo's is part of it or even maybe main Haplogroup considering the age. Other classical civilizations would have been created later to the south and the Northern migrations came later too. Much much more work is needed tho but Vinca would be an interesting story.

----------


## Ike

> Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.


It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.

----------


## Angela

> Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.
> 
> I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:
> 
> http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
> ...


According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007). 

As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.

I think it's also just as well to clear up any confusion about E-V13. A sample was indeed found in a Neolithic sample from 5,000 BC. It was in the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia.

This is the link to the paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/1...df?with-ds=yes

This is the table where it is clearly labeled as E-V13:
Attachment 7341

It also so appears in Jean Manco's online table of ancient DNA:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

This is why the author said that it was definitely related to the E-V13 in the Balkans.

Attachment 7342


This is the map of the current distribution of E-V13. It may not be totally current, but the general parameters are clear.

So, we do indeed know that E-V13, and moreover an E-V13 related to the E-V13 now present in the Aegean and surrounding areas, was present in Neolithic Europe 5,000 BC in a Cardial context. Once again, Cardial was an east to west Neolithic migration that began in the Aegean and/or the Balkan area. 
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif


Given all of that, until some new piece of ancient DNA is proffered which would change the picture, the movement into Europe of E-V13 would seem to have been from east to west and probably during the Neolithic, as numerous scholars have posited. 

It's true that we don't know for certain where the "father" of the E-V13 cluster that is most common in the Balkans originated. However, I hardly think it's parsimonious, looking at all this data, to posit he came from Spain or Africa or some other rather bizarre scenario. The likelihood is that he came from somewhere near by. 

I also think it has to be borne in mind that TMRCA should not be conflated with "date of arrival". The particular TMRCA of a certain group could be consistent with the arrival of a lineage long before. 

The expansion certainly seems to have taken place in the Bronze Age and probably continued in the Iron Age, to Italy, among other places.

----------


## Maleth

> It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.


Albania is not the only hotspot for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No? We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.

----------


## Maleth

> According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.
> 
> From the paper:
> "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).


indeed, and it also confirms the ages between haplogroup EM215 (38.6 kya to 31.4-45.9 kya) and sub-haplogroup E-M35 (25.0 kya; 0-30.0 kya)., the later mutation of M78 happened between 20.3 kya and 14.8 kya in East North Africa (we already knew that). *The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) which is consistent with previous papers that suggested a post-Neolithicexpansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).9un* So basically its a confirmation of past papers as to

That would mean that we can roughly calculate 10,000 years of M78 roaming around and expanding before the E-V13 and other subclades were mutated later on.

----------


## Angela

This is Maleth's post from the E-V13 thread. I think it bears re-posting here for some clarity.

"This what Steve Bird (author of the Roman theory for E-V13 in Britian) has to say on the new paper from the E-V13 forum:

(quote) We can improve on this estimate further, however, by recalling that a V13 aDNA skeleton, carbon dated to 7 kya, was found in northeastern Spain recently. This gives us a firm lower boundary for the appearance of V13. Since it is unlikely that the skeleton found in the Spanish cave was the founder of the V13 subclade, an older date of coalescence must be found. We can now say that V13 is AT LEAST 7,000 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,800 years old. The central estimate of 8.1 kya for the TMRCA actually fits quite nicely with the appearance of the V13 skeleton on the Mediterranean coast 7 kya. (It should also be noted that the rho estimate barely overlaps the known 7 kya lower fence but just barely, with the upper 95% CI at 7.3 kya). We are left with a strong estimate of the TMRCA for V13 of 7-10.8 kya (97.5% CI, since we can ignore the portion of the tail that is younger than 7 kya). There is only a 2.5% probability that the "true" TMRCA is older than 10.8 kya and there is zero probability that it is younger than 7 kya.

*Another interesting finding is that of Figure S4 (Supplementary Figures). Using a posterior probability of ancestral geographic location, the authors predict a nearly 100% probability of the geographic origin of V13 being in Europe**. The analysis includes one Druze male subject (from Israel), which accounts for the extremely small sliver of Asian probability seen in the pie chart of S4. This is very significant because it moves the theoretical origin of V13 from the Levant/Anatolia to the Balkan peninsula proper*. (/quote)"

Is it still possible that the specific "father" of the E-V13 cluster that dominates the Balkans today came to the area from somewhere nearby in the Aegean? Yes, I think it is, because the upstream clade might have been pretty widespread, if perhaps scarce, and the one that got his break in the Bronze Age need not have been specifically in one precise area. However, I'm persuaded that this cluster has been in the Balkans from at least the Bronze Age, and probably since the Neolithic.

The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians. 

"The name *Pelasgians* (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, _Pelasgoí_; singular: Πελασγός, _Pelasgós_) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:

Location of Pelasgians based on ancient authors.jpg

Is this proof that the "Pelasgians" were E-V13 pre Greeks? No it doesn't. We will have to wait for ancient Greek samples from before the time of the steppe migrations, but even then, I don't know if the issue can be settled, because we don't have specific cultural artifacts, burials, etc. that we can definitely label as "Pelasgian". We will get an idea, however, as to whether E-V13 was already in Greece and the areas north of it before the steppe people came. 

My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.

----------


## Garrick

I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

"The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, *the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago*, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, *E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia*. "

----------


## noUseForAname

> In 1854, an Austrian diplomat and Albanian language specialist, Johann Georg von Hahn, identified the Pelasgian language with Ur-Albanian. This theory has been rejected by modern scholars but is still supported by some Albanian nationalists.



Milan, up to now, there is no scientific links between Albanian and Pelazgian language, we dont even know what Pelazgian language is or was....The link here however might be genetical (greek, albanian), language is a different topic and so too genetics.

----------


## Angela

> Garrick: I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:
> 
> "The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, *the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago*, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, *E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia*. "


It appears that Cruciani has changed his mind, as he is a co-author of the new Trombetta et al paper quoted above. In fact, correspondence is to be addressed to him.


*"Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent.*


Beniamino Trombetta1,^,Eugenia D’Atanasio1,^,Andrea Massaia1,2,Marco Ippoliti1,Alfredo Coppa3,Francesca Candilio3,Valentina Coia4,Gianluca Russo5,Jean-Michel Dugoujon6,Pedro Moral7,Nejat Akar8,Daniele Sellitto9,Guido Valesini10,Andrea Novelletto11,Rosaria Scozzari1 andFulvio Cruciani1,9,* 
+ Author Affiliations

1Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;2The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, U.K. (present address);3Dipartimento di Biologia Ambientale, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;4Accademia Europea di Bolzano (EURAC), Istituto per le Mummie e l'Iceman, Bolzano, Italy;5Dipartimento di Sanità Pubblica e Malattie Infettive, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;6Laboratoire d’Anthropologie Moléculaire et Imagerie de Synthèse, UMR 5288, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS), Université Toulouse-3–Paul-Sabatier, Toulouse, France;7Department of Animal Biology-Anthropology, Biodiversity Research Institute, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain;8Pediatrics Department, TOBB-Economy and Technology University Hospital, 06510, Ankara, Turkey9Istituto di Biologia e Patologia Molecolari, CNR, Roma 00185, Italy;10Dipartimento di Medicina Interna e Specialità Mediche, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;11Dipartimento di Biologia, Università di Roma “Tor Vergata”, Rome 00133, Italy. 

↵*Author for Correspondence: Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, Tel: +39 06 49912826, Fax: +39 06 4456866; e-mail: [email protected]"

----------


## Angela

@Garrick,

I think the following part of your post upthread more appropriately belongs in the Pinhasi et al thread discussing ancient dna results than in a thread about Pelasgians and E-V13, so I am going to repost it there.

"We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings."

----------


## Garrick

> My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, *it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans*.


I must give answer, it can be important for thread. 

The matter is very complex and we should much more knowledge and new studies.

We know a little about subject, what we know about Slavs is group of nations who speak one family of language.

Generally assumption is that Slavic haplogroup is R1a and that I2a carriers are like some "heelers", all culture and IE language is from R1a. We think languages of I2, and I1 too, are extinct. It is "actual wisdom." The picture is not much "happy" for the oldest haplogroup in Europe.

But, is it really so?

A lot of that we don't know. However, knowledge arises with newer studies.

First Vinca sample from Serbia which we saw tell us that WHG is very big. In different forums people write that high probability is that Vinca people were I carriers, more precise, I2 carriers.

Of course, several samples in Europe says that haplogroup I2 was found in Mesholitic!, and they were all hunter gatherers. We know that carriers of haplogropup I are old Europeans.

We can see in Eupedia:

*Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there* (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. In other words, Cro-Magnons most probably belonged to IJ and I (alongside older haplogroups like F and C6).
...

Now, we will see Cucuteni Trypillian culture. According to Macimo:




> When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why *I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup*, if not the dominant one of this culture.


It is very interesting,* older Vinca (5700-4500 BC) and younger Cucuteni-Trypillia (4800-3000 BC), probably both have dominant I2*! We will see if it is true.

(Vinca: place in Serbia; Cucuteni, place in Romania; Trypillia: place in Ukraine.)

But we can see more interesting things. For example:




*Mother Earth in Cucuteni Trypolye culture*

We can compare:



*Mother Earth with her baby from Vinca/Starcevo culture*

We can see similarity. It is possible that continuity exists between two cultures! Of course probability is higher if carriers of same haplogroup created these culture.
...

With website: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

*Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.*

*Vinca letters*

Attachment 7344

These I2 carriers weren't unintelligent, maybe they invented the letters before ancient Egyptians and Summerians.
...

We will not go away. But what if exists continuity between these two cultures and later cultures?

Angela do not get me wrong, but some R people (R1a, R1b anyway) think everything flowed from them.

But what *if R1a carriers received culture of I2 carriers*? (Or at least it was a mutual exchange where I2a carriers were not subaltern.)

How you see we don't know a lot. *We cannot come to speak about Slavs* *until we understand the moving and expansion of haplogroups, especially I2, and complex relations and exchange cultures and languages between I2 and R1a carriers, and certainly carriers of other haplogroups who* *have contributed creating Proto Slavs*.

It is possible that Vinca culture and Cucuteni Trypilla culture played significant role.
...

Vinca culture, territory:



Cucuteni Trypillia culture, territory:

----------


## Angela

^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?

None of the above post has anything to do with the topic of this thread. The topic is the Pelasgians, or by a reasonable extension, E-V13. All the twisting and turning by the Serb members, even to trying to bring up Cruciani et al 2007, when Cruciani is an author of the present study, is not going to make E-V13 a "foreign" y dna lineage in the Balkans. It would have been intellectually honest and gracious to admit you were wrong about that.

All of you also keep conflating and confusing ydna lineages, autosomal dna and language. You can't understand population genetics and the ethnogenesis of any people until you stop doing that. 

We don't know the yDna line of this Vinca sample. Probably there was I2a among them. At the time the sample lived, he was a Neolithic farmer. Some I2a moved to the steppe perhaps, where the autosomal signature might have changed when they became steppe dwellers. The I2a people who lived either in the steppe or in more northern parts of Europe and who might have been picked up in the "Slavic" migrations and _then_ come to the Balkans would have been different yet.

So, you could have three yDna I2a men of related yDna lineages who were very different from one another autosomally as well as in terms of culture.

Nobody is saying that some of the I2a in the Balkans _might_ not have been there continuously since the Mesolithic. The "Slavic" speaking people and the I2a they carried, if any, were not...they were late entrants into the Balkans.

I really can't put it any more simply than that. If you don't see it, you don't.

I must say that I find people's changing positions on these cultures rather extraordinary. The "Old Europe" cultures were all but called "wimpy", "weak" farming cultures with a too female oriented culture who were infinitely inferior to hunter gatherers and steppe people both. Now all of a sudden because they think they can make them look more "WHG" in calculators, they want to "claim" them and their culture.

Amazing.

If you want to pursue this with these kinds of lengthy expositions, please find an appropriate thread. This isn't it.

----------


## noUseForAname

[QUOTE=Dalmat;460794] 



> http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png
> 
> Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
> There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.



Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.

Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.

If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml




> Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.


I wouldn't say all (majority) similar with Thracian Bulgarian and Romanian.....

_Older to newer - (it does not imply say Greek/Albanian cause they didn't exist at those periods, it's just to base the current locations)_
_18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)_
_5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)_
_45% I2a1 coming from far Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania - Cucutemy/Trypillian culture Ukraine) 3,000 ybp -_ Majority
15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania or current Poland) 3,000 ybp
5% J 




> Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.


Also (check Maciamo maps) - Vinca had a majrity E-V13 following by others at 6,000 ybp



Your source might also correlate with Maciamo maps - Tuscan, South Italy, Greek Albanian share the same groups 

do you have the link of this study?

----------


## Garrick

> Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.
> 
> Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.
> 
> If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
> If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml
> 
> 
> ...


noUseForAname
Why you put Illyirans in this thread. What Illyrians have with Pelasgians? They have nothing, two completely different populations, different origin, in different times, in different locations.

Here is one opinion about Pelasgians, Calvin Evans, American author and historian:

*The Pelasgians: The Black Original inhabitants of Ancient Greece*

https://saggigga.wordpress.com/2014/...ncient-greece/

...
What do you think about it?

This is for discussion. Lets all we members try to strictly hold thread.

----------


## Sile

Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other

----------


## Sile

[QUOTE=noUseForAname;461127]


> do you have the link of this study?


where did you get this from?

----------


## Maleth

> The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians. 
> 
> "The name *Pelasgians* (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, _Pelasgoí_; singular: Πελασγός, _Pelasgós_) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1]In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians
> 
> I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:
> 
> Location of Pelasgians based on ancient authors.jpg
> ...


Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.

We have lots of references and indications that the


Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythologyWe also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabetWe also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.

Here is also something that seems to be common in all of these cultures, just to add a little more spice.


Egyptian temple



Phoenician temple



Greek temple




Roman temple



All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)

In my opinion Greeks from the classic era are a mixture of tribes of different origins who eventually intermixed to be one people with common dieties, law and culture, like they are today pooling in different attributes. Yellow mixed with blue makes Green, but Yellow is not Green and Green is not Blue.


The whole thing does not look too mysterious to me.

Will we ever get results from Neolithic and classical times from these regions?  :Thinking:

----------


## Ike

> Albania *is not the only hotspot* for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history *then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No?* We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.


1. I am talking exclusively about Kosovo. The fact that it is a current hotspot it is being used for deriving wild theories about ancient times, while we all know it is utter nonsense.
2. No. I am talking about a specific region, which AD history we know about.

----------


## Ike

> ^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?


There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.

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## Angela

> There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.


You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.

----------


## Angela

There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy 
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age. 

Kudos to Maciamo for always holding out for J2 having made it into Europe by the Neolithic. Do I get any points for saying it might have made it by the Late Neolithic? :)

Here is a map so you know where they are:

----------


## noUseForAname

> Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.
> 
> We have lots of references and indications that the
> 
> 
> Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythologyWe also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabetWe also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.
> 
> All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)
> 
> ...



Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.

Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...





Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes *Pelasgus** as the first man*, born of the earth.[20]

Maybe this might be another link, maybe those first man born in Africa?....maybe another link that they might be M78 (north east Africa) than mutated in Europe E-V13?


i have sourced before that they lived around Pindus Mountains, they were barbaric and probably not people from the sea

Plain of Thessaly, to the west of classical Pelasgiotis, but in the original range of the Pelasgians. The Pindus Mountains are visible in the background. The river is the Peneus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

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## noUseForAname

> You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.



Mild clashes as IKE said LOL, so mild that if you see the list i sourced you'll understand, all the highest level state officials found guilty by International Tribunal for ethnic cleansing (genocide) in Bosnia Croatia Kosovo, and now imagine what paramilitary had done, you are right there should be much much more in prison for that....

These atrocities should be condemned no matter the nationalities, this is what i still don't understand that a lot of people still don't even after 20 years...

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## noUseForAname

> Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other



That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that T_erramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13_ 
_if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece. 
if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....


Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp...._

----------


## Sile

> That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that T_erramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13_ 
> _if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece. 
> if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....
> 
> 
> Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp...._


Do you actually know where Illyria is on the map?...............the bulk of it ( 80% ) is only in modern Croatia and Bosnia

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## Sile

> Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.
> 
> Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes *Pelasgus** as the first man*, born of the earth.[20]
> ...


Pindus mountains, home of the Molossians, one of the 14 tribes that make up the Epirote people

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## noUseForAname

> Do you actually know where Illyria is on the map?...............the bulk of it ( 80% ) is only in modern Croatia and Bosnia



Of course i know, check the Maciamo map i sourced....i doesn't matter if its a bit far because as I noted E-V13 traveled around and spread, they didn't get stuck in one place.

It would make sense _that T__erramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 following by other groups..._

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## noUseForAname

> Pindus mountains, home of the Molossians, one of the 14 tribes that make up the Epirote people



Yes however we are arguing about pre Molossians pre Mycenaean, probably around 4,500 ybp, and not labeling it with any names, it's just E-V13.....Molossians might have descend from E-V13 though (we don't know), we know that E-V13 is pretty high in those areas....

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## noUseForAname

> 



I can't find the map, can you source it please?....i can only see colourful colours lol.

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## Maleth

> 1. I am talking exclusively about Kosovo. The fact that it is a current hotspot it is being used for deriving wild theories about ancient times, while we all know it is utter nonsense.
> 2. No. I am talking about a specific region, which AD history we know about.


Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots

----------


## Maleth

> There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.
> 
> Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy 
> http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf
> 
> 
> Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.
> 
> The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.
> ...


For a moment I thought you were referring to the one of Marie La Can et al. So these are pretty recent ones, one from Sopot other from Lengyal. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for posting

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## Maleth

:Grin: 


> Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...


Not just the foot NUFAN but other body parts  :Satisfied:  which I would not get into detail. Oh Nannu Zeus  :Grin: . Enough now back to topic please. :Smile:

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## Garrick

> Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots


Nobody cares, populations are changing. I gave data, of all E-V13 males in Europe and Turkey, Albanians are 3.48%. But some Albanians try to convince that all E-V13 are by origin Albanians (you can see how they write indefinite, when they should be concrete).
...

However, Dienekes calculated age and everyone can see:

In my previous post, I estimated a *Late Bronze Age for E-V13 in Greece and areas affected by historical Greek colonizatio*n. I now used Ken Nordtvedt's Generations2 program to obtain estimates of the age of E-V13 in three different datasets: the King set, 12-marker data from the E-M35 Phylogeny Project (Haplozone), as well as E-M78 data -most of which should be E-V13- from Bosch et al. (2006). In the latter set, I used two marker sets: *all 12 markers common between Generations2 and Bosch, as well as 8 markers common between them, but excluding markers after DYS392* (in the Generations2/FTDNA order).

Nea Nikomedeia Age (25y/gen) *1,725* BC Age (30y/gen) *2,470* BC
Sesklo/Dimini Age (25y/gen) 225 AD Age (30y/gen) 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi Age (25y/gen) 1000 BC (30y/gen) 1,600 BC
Crete Age (25y/gen) 300 AD (30y/gen) 40 BC
Haplozone (25y/gen) 1,350 BC (30y/gen) 2,020 BC
Aromuns (12) (25y/gen) 225 AD (30y/gen) 130BC
Aromuns (8) (25y/gen) 175 AD (39y/gen) 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) (25y/gen) 525 AD (30y/gen) 230 AD
Albanians (12) *250* AD (30 y/gen) *100* BC
Albanians (8) *525* AD (30y/gen) *230* AD

Albanians are the youngest. It is interesting these ages are similar with ages which some Romanian scientists give as possible time of arrival of tribes from Romania/Moldavia to Albania!

According Dienekes, Greeks from Nea Nikomedeia are descendants of the oldest E-V13 carriers of these in table.

Nea Nikomedeia is in Central Macedonia, Greece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Nikomedeia

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## Garrick

> There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.
> 
> Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy 
> http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf
> 
> 
> Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.
> 
> The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.
> ...


There is all logical. I see nothing surprising, maybe only F* is bigger than I would expect.

I wonder, is this really F or this is G. Today there are no F* in Europe. I read example for two Portuguese men with F* but assumption is that they are descendants from India.

Starcevo culture is predecessor of Vinca (Starcevo is in Serbia, too).

Starcevo/Vinca I2a1, G2a (and F*). *Now** it is obvious that there has been adaptation*, and the *Hungarian paper argue about cooperation*. When I wrote that hunter gatherers adapted, some members have refused this possibility.





...
E-V13 is logical too. It is found in Lengyel (Hungary) and Sopot (Croatia) culture. 
These culture are something younger than Starcevo and Vinca, and tey are more mixed. In these cultures are G2a, F*, I2/I2a1, E-V13, J2 and C.

Once G2a was much more frequent than today. What happened to the G2a?

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## Ike

> Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots


Agreed. So, lets get back on the track.


1.(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...CE.BF.CE.AF.29)

The modern English noun _Greek_ (Old English _Grecas_ or _Crecas_) is derived from the Latin Graeci, which in turn originates from Ancient Greek Γραικός (_Graikos_). It seems that the word is related with the Greek word γέρων *geron, "old man"* (from the PIEbase _*ǵerh2-_, "to grow old") via Proto-Greek _*gera-_, "old age" and later _kera_ /geras/, "gift of honour" in Mycenean Greek and_grau-j-_, "old lady".




2. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians#Tribe)

According to Strabo, the Thesprotians (along with the Chaonians and the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, as they once ruled over the whole region. The Chaonians ruled Epirus first while the Thesprotians and Molossians ruled afterwards. Plutarch tells us that the Thesprotians, the Chaonians and the Molossians were the three principal clusters of Greek tribes that had emerged in Epirus, and all three were the most powerful among all other tribes. Strabo also records that the Thesprotians, Molossians, and Macedonians *referred to old men as pelioi and old women as peliai* (PIE: _*pel-_ means _grey_; Ancient Greek: _pelitnós_– "grey", _peleia_ – "pigeon", so-called because of its dusky grey color, _poliós_ – _grey_, and _pollós_ – "dark"). Their senators were called _Peligones_, similar to the Macedonian Peliganes. A mid-4th century BC inscription from Goumani indicates that the organisation of the Thesprotian state was similar to that the other Epirotes. 



3.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi)

The Selloi were inhabitants of Epirus in ancient Greece, in a region between Dodona—site of the oldest reported oracle—and the Achelous river; Aristotle named the area ancient Hellas. A group who were formerly called Graeci (_Graikoi_) and later Hellenes lived there as well.


4. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona#Herodotus)

Herodotus adds:
"But my own belief about it is this. If the Phoenicians did in fact carry away the sacred women and sell one in Libya and one in Hellas, then, in my opinion, the place where this woman was sold in what is now Hellas, but was formerly called Pelasgia, was Thesprotia; and then, being a slave there, she established a shrine of Zeus under an oak that was growing there; for it was reasonable that, as she had been a handmaid of the temple of Zeus at Thebes, she would remember that temple in the land to which she had come.


5.(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Γραικός)

Γραικός - Uncertain origin. Aristotle wrote that it was an Illyrian word used to describe the Dorian tribes in Epirus, from _Graii,_ an indigenous name of peoples in the coastal region.



From all this it seems that Greek and Pelasgoi may be the same thing.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> Agreed. So, lets get back on the track.
> 
> 
> 1.(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...CE.BF.CE.AF.29)
> 
> The modern English noun _Greek_ (Old English _Grecas_ or _Crecas_) is derived from the Latin Graeci, which in turn originates from Ancient Greek Γραικός (_Graikos_). It seems that the word is related with the Greek word γέρων *geron, "old man"* (from the PIEbase _*ǵerh2-_, "to grow old") via Proto-Greek _*gera-_, "old age" and later _kera_ /geras/, "gift of honour" in Mycenean Greek and_grau-j-_, "old lady".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, by ancient writers we had in Crete dorians, pelasgians, mycenians, minoans etc. Yes, we had the pelasgians among the allies of troy. Definitely they were non Hellenic population, and probably non IE population either. By ancient Hellenic writers we know that pelasgians tongue was intelligible by the hellenes. Those writers wrote that those non Greek people lived till the 500 bce in south Greece. Probably fully assimilated later , or forced to leave.

----------


## Piro Ilir

> noUseForAname
> Why you put Illyirans in this thread. What Illyrians have with Pelasgians? They have nothing, two completely different populations, different origin, in different times, in different locations.
> 
> Here is one opinion about Pelasgians, Calvin Evans, American author and historian:
> 
> *The Pelasgians: The Black Original inhabitants of Ancient Greece*
> 
> https://saggigga.wordpress.com/2014/...ncient-greece/
> 
> ...


The maximum you should say here is different location, not different times. Illyrians came to Balkans around early bronze age or late Neolithic as I have read by serious writers. Pelasgians were mentioned during the war of troy 1130 circa . Also they have been mentioned later in Crete and in south Greece till the 500 bce in some isolated pockets. But we have epirus region, where we have Illyrians, hellenes and pelasgians too. The site of Dodona was the only one important worshiping site for them.

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## ukaj

> Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots


You should be worried because over half population of albania are ghegs.their is 1.5 million in kosova an another 1.5 million in albania an their is another 600 thousand in macedonia an 90 thousand in serbia an 30 thousand in montenegro.An every single one of these groups are related through tribes,now since the population of albania is only 2.775 million im sure you can do your maths.An when you look at the percent of ev-13 in kosova i think around 47% an add the other percent of ev-13 in albanian would give a much bigger percentage as im betting most of the population in albania carring the ev-13 would most likey be gheg.so im guessing around 65% of gheg albanian even more would carry ev-13.Then add the 40% of greek ev-13 holders in peloponnese an population of their is only 1,100,071 makes it very much less since greece population is 11 million.dont forget the albanian population in peloponnese take away the population of them an arvantie albanians an you wil have less ev-13 in greece.ot to mentions ghegs are really much a sicluded people with seprate language to everyone else.an also tosk has you guys have 20 diffrent dilects..seems to me everywhere albanians are their is a high percent of ev-13. peloponnese has the highest ammount of ev-13 than any place in greece..

Population of macedonia is 2.1 million an 600 thousand albanians living their is a percentige or 35% now whats amount of ev-13 in macedonia?Im sure its close to 33%..hmmm interesting.

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## noUseForAname

So here I am back after some couple of years, did not do much research though but would like to start again and see what are the new findings for E-V13 and R1b.

Anyone who has anything interesting please share...

----------


## halfalp

> So here I am back after some couple of years, did not do much research though but would like to start again and see what are the new findings for E-V13 and R1b.
> 
> Anyone who has anything interesting please share...


Welcome back Megalophias.

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## Wanderer

Pelasgians were not true hellens. They are aboriginals and indigenous before hellens. But dorians, or Lacedaemons hellenized them. Just as they did with many other surrounding peoples before them.

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## Wanderer

> The maximum you should say here is different location, not different times. Illyrians came to Balkans around early bronze age or late Neolithic as I have read by serious writers. Pelasgians were mentioned during the war of troy 1130 circa . Also they have been mentioned later in Crete and in south Greece till the 500 bce in some isolated pockets. But we have epirus region, where we have Illyrians, hellenes and pelasgians too. The site of Dodona was the only one important worshiping site for them.


The carrians were the first islanders of the aegean sea before greeks. When they were under minos rule, they didnt pay tribute but instead manned the ships of minos navy. This reason is why carians were among the most respected nation. But later Ionians drove them out of the aegean back to west asia. Their homeland before they colonized the agean before ionians
As the carians living in Caria say they have always lived in caria but the minoans said the carians were tje first in the aegean before them. I have not finished reading the histories by heordotus but this is where you can find the information

Colchians by the caucus were egyptians. They were remenants of an egyptian army of Sesostris

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## noUseForAname

> Pelasgians were not true hellens. They are aboriginals and indigenous before hellens. But dorians, or Lacedaemons hellenized them. Just as they did with many other surrounding peoples before them.


Yes, most likely and this is according to history i believe...

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## xiaodragon

As current Albanian Speaking regions have the *highest E-V13 in the world* (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is *47.5%， interesting。*

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## xiaodragon

*Eva Fernández et al.,Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers　Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland　Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands. PLoSGenetics 2014. Open access→ LINK[doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401]　　eager to read this. 
*

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## noUseForAname

Hi Everyone, I was quite off for quite a while, and was wondering if anyone has any new good studies regarding E-V13?

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## Hawk

> Hi Everyone, I was quite off for quite a while, and was wondering if anyone has any new good studies regarding E-V13?


Hi, still no. We are still wondering about the origin, it looks less and less likely that it is a Balkanite Y-DNA ( EBA upwards). The oldest clade related with this Y-DNA are 1-2 E-L618 from Early Neolithic Cardial Ware. From the actual E-V13 mutation the oldest ones are from Germany, Poland and further south, some in Italy. Would be interesting to know how and when did it enter Balkans.

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## noUseForAname

> Hi, still no. We are still wondering about the origin, it looks less and less likely that it is a Balkanite Y-DNA ( EBA upwards). The oldest clade related with this Y-DNA are 1-2 E-L618 from Early Neolithic Cardial Ware. From the actual E-V13 mutation the oldest ones are from Germany, Poland and further south, some in Italy. Would be interesting to know how and when did it enter Balkans.


I do believe that EV13 crossed directly from far north Africa very very long time ago, since from history read that pre-ancient greek time there were people living on those surroundings called Pelasgian, at that time since 2014 were I was still a rookie, and I still am https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...287#post610287 and from this old post, tried to maybe these so called Pelazgic people mostly caried EV13.

I still believe in it, of course since there are only few ancient samples we can suppose and speculate I guess, I think we also find quite high EV13 on VINCA culture, i think read a post on this from Maciamo, so surely after north Africa it spread all over Europe, and why not some to Spain, Italy, balkan region and Grece also, however how about they have found a best and most convinient place for them in Vinca Culture 7000 ybp? then to more southern Balkans like current Albania North Macedonia and Greece around 6000 ybp? Then came Minoans and Myceneans, we do have reseach Lasaridis I believe that says Minoans and Myceneans look the most likely with current modern people of Greece, north Macedonia and Albania, than ancient Greece etc, which still does not have to be formed all from this group of course but they could have been the majority ....And people always move right, so they could have moved as mentioned above as well, who knows only time will tell

So, I would not conclude (as you mention) as of now yet, because we found only few ancient E-V13 in Spain, Germany etc it does not mean, yes it can enter from north Africa 7000 BC years ago from Spain Italy and Greece etc, as people move all the time they sure went north like Germany, then why not found home and gathered mostly in Vinca area 7000 ypb, then went south Balkans, and gathered there again after 6000 ybp? 

As current south Balkans have the highest E-V13 can we suppose that the biggest expansion after 6000 ybp was indeed from South Balkans? or even from the Vinca culture location?

Well only some very interesting suppositions, we need so many more of the ancient samples

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## Aspurg

> I do believe that EV13 crossed directly from far north Africa very very long time ago, since from history read that pre-ancient greek time there were people living on those surroundings called Pelasgian, at that time since 2014 were I was still a rookie, and I still am https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...287#post610287 and from this old post, tried to maybe these so called Pelazgic people mostly caried EV13.
> 
> I still believe in it, of course since there are only few ancient samples we can suppose and speculate I guess, I think we also find quite high EV13 on VINCA culture, i think read a post on this from Maciamo, so surely after north Africa it spread all over Europe, and why not some to Spain, Italy, balkan region and Grece also, however how about they have found a best and most convinient place for them in Vinca Culture 7000 ybp? then to more southern Balkans like current Albania North Macedonia and Greece around 6000 ybp? Then came Minoans and Myceneans, we do have reseach Lasaridis I believe that says Minoans and Myceneans look the most likely with current modern people of Greece, north Macedonia and Albania, than ancient Greece etc, which still does not have to be formed all from this group of course but they could have been the majority ....And people always move right, so they could have moved as mentioned above as well, who knows only time will tell
> 
> So, I would not conclude (as you mention) as of now yet, because we found only few ancient E-V13 in Spain, Germany etc it does not mean, yes it can enter from north Africa 7000 BC years ago from Spain Italy and Greece etc, as people move all the time they sure went north like Germany, then why not found home and gathered mostly in Vinca area 7000 ypb, then went south Balkans, and gathered there again after 6000 ybp? 
> 
> As current south Balkans have the highest E-V13 can we suppose that the biggest expansion after 6000 ybp was indeed from South Balkans? or even from the Vinca culture location?
> 
> Well only some very interesting suppositions, we need so many more of the ancient samples


An E-M35 admin made years ago thesis that E-V13 began spreading with Cetina culture. It still seems correct, as is spreading of CTS1273 with Glina III culture already in BA. Yamnaya (GS) nomads created pre-Cetina culture proper and Z1057 gave one of his sons to them. Already in EBA they were all over the Balkans. Glina III is really the only way to explain the spread of V13.

Who were these Yamnaya? I suspect the likes of R-KMS67 and R-Y5587.

The oldest historical E-V13 find is Glinoe "Scythian" from 300 BC, that is Getae from Glinoe who was E-FGC44169*. Autosomally Getae were almost identical to the Thraco-Cimmerian find from 900 BC, so there was some continuity there. And ofc the entire area was partly descended from Glina III..

From years ago (Spanish E-V13 find) we know E-L618 has strong Cardial connection, we know there was only one Cardial element which survived for thousands of years until the EBA, and of course we know Cetina culture had this element. So it's a no brainer and it is based actually on an aDNA find (Dalmatian E-L618), current spread, diversity and very strong archaeological evidence. 
From a purely logical PoV, how come E-V13 does not descend from one of very few E-L618 enclaves in Europe which happened to participate in an EBA culture (which is E-V13's TMRCA) which began in the same area.. No it should rather start expanding from G2a cultures and those made up 95+ % of the Neolithic Europe.. :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

Were these "Pelasgians"? I guess some of those were the Peleset, or Philistines.. Generally all those cultures are considered to have been IE. 
Various E-V13 clades already look certainly connected to the Bronze Age collapse.

My system means: V13 is in Dalmatia, CTS1273 is in modern day Romania, various BY3880's are already around the Balkans, including the Southern Balkans. GS people dominated the Central and Eastern Balkans in EBA. That fact alone speaks volumes as V13 is predominately EBA in its initial spread.

----------


## noUseForAname

> An E-M35 admin made years ago thesis that E-V13 began spreading with Cetina culture. It still seems correct, as is spreading of CTS1273 with Glina III culture already in BA. Yamnaya (GS) nomads created pre-Cetina culture proper and Z1057 gave one of his sons to them. Already in EBA they were all over the Balkans. Glina III is really the only way to explain the spread of V13.
> 
> The oldest historical E-V13 find is Glinoe "Scythian" from 300 BC, that is Getae from Glinoe who was E-FGC44169*. Autosomally Getae were almost identical to the Thraco-Cimmerian find from 900 BC, so there was some continuity there. And ofc the entire area was partly descended from Glina III..
> 
> Were these "Pelasgians"? I guess some of those were the Peleset, or Philistines.. Generally all those cultures are considered to have been IE. 
> Various E-V13 clades already look certainly connected to the Bronze Age collapse.
> 
> My system means: V13 is in Dalmatia, CTS1273 is in modern day Romania, various BY3880's are already around the Balkans, including the Southern Balkans. GS people dominated the Central and Eastern Balkans in EBA. That fact alone speaks volumes as V13 is predominately EBA in its initial spread.


Might be Cetina culture, but I think it should have happened much longet time ago, probably around or at least 4000 BC, it cant be that late if we already found E-V13 in Spain was it around 6000 BC? So why the spread that late, I am sure Vinca carried some E-V13 as well...

And Pelasgian were not IE at all I believe, for more info I already answered you on the other post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d=1#post610395

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## Aspurg

> Might be Cetina culture, but *I think* it should have happened much longet time ago, probably around or at least 4000 BC,


 And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the *TMRCA estimates and basal diversity*. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.




> it cant be that late if we already found E-V13 in Spain was it around 6000 BC?


 But it is.




> So why the spread that late,


 Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.




> I am sure Vinca carried some E-V13 as well...


 It carried few in a 1000 or none.




> And Pelasgian were not IE at all I believe, for more info I already answered you on the other post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d=1#post610395


 Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..

Look dude, you clearly have some strong desire to push the spread of E-V13 into the Neolithic so you can turn the V13 into "Pelasgian slaves" like it was postulated 10/15 years ago. But they spread in BA so they must have been some dominators, whatever it was. And I know thats something you can't stand, cause you're "supposed" to be some dominator right, not those "despicable E's" right??  :Laughing:  You descend from a bottleneck of a couple thousands of years, and you weren't dominating anything for a long time before your 6th century expansion..

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## Archetype0ne

> And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the *TMRCA estimates and basal diversity*. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> But it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.
> ...


Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF

I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it. :Confused:

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## Pax Augusta

> Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..


Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.

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## Archetype0ne

> Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.


Ancient Greeks surely liked using blanket terms to group foreign people that might not even have been related... Illyrians, Thracians, Barbarians just off the top of my head.

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## Angela

> Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF
> 
> I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
> But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it.


Complete nonsense. Some people seem unaware that the ancient dna revolution ever happened and keep arguing based on totally discounted ancient myths. 

Whatever the Greeks meant by the term in particular areas, they were the "original" or at least "prior" inhabitants, and their dna is in everyone in those regions, and it probably accounts for more of their dna than anything which came later. 

It's like that old nonsense about Albanians being descended from Ottoman Turks which I was constantly combatting. 

If people want to live as if the fairy tales they were told are true they will whether the science refutes it or not, I guess.

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## ihype02

Pre Ancient Greeks were likely J2a, G2 and T. 
Any idea on I2a2?
E-V13 might have arrived with Dorians, but it is wierd that it is low in Calabaria (which was mostly Doric) compared to J2a.

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## Angela

> Pre Ancient Greeks were likely J2a, G2 and T. 
> Any idea on I2a2?
> E-V13 might have arrived with Dorians, but it is wierd that it is low in Calabaria (which was mostly Doric) compared to J2a.


I agree with those three, but I don't think we have enough samples from Greece, or Albania, for that matter, to know if E-V13 was also present. 

We're inundated with every hut or cart dweller's dna from the steppe, and this paucity in Greece and Italy.

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## Aspurg

> Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF
> 
> I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
> But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it.


 This is some decade old perception that anything other than Steppe invader means "being a slave".  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  And ofc this status is reserved for "the special ones".. Polako's blonde cowboys, pow, pow, pow  :Laughing: . Some Slavic Z280 clade.. For ex. these Corded Ware's having expanded into their areas soon got sedentized, lost IE way of life, mixing with EHG's etc. So ancestors of most of these were no IE nomads.. No horse riding for many of them for 4500+ years..  :Laughing: 




> Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.




 True, the only reasonably reliable trace are the Lemnians, and even there archaeological evidence is unclear, some Mycenaean like population being among the most likely options.

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## Archetype0ne

> I agree with those three, but I don't think we have enough samples from Greece, or Albania, for that matter, to know if E-V13 was also present. 
> 
> We're inundated with every hut or cart dweller's dna from the steppe, and this paucity in Greece and Italy.



I often wonder why we lack old samples from the Balkans and Anatolia for that matter. Is there no interest in excavating and analyzing or was cremation a major factor?

It is a pity really, given that Balkans is a stepping stone for a lot of peoples and cultures. I am sure if we had more samples a lot would be clearer.

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## noUseForAname

> And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the *TMRCA estimates and basal diversity*. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.
> 
> But it is.
> 
> Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.
> 
> It carried few in a 1000 or none.
> 
> Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..
> ...


Pelasgians descend from Etruscans or the other way? The Etruscan civilization was at its height _c. 500 BC, where Homer mentioned Pelasgians before ancient greeks_  :Laughing: 

You seem to misunderstang my point for unknown reason, I always mean in proportions and percentages because people moved always so its very hard to know exactly therefore we can guess or suppose, or at least have the right to do so.

Also I dont have to add anything more than the other post (see below) from other link, also you called me dumb and I thing administator has to ban you about it, or at least dont post on my thread please, you have no rights for that at all.


_Originally Posted by Aspurg 
You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. E-V13 expansion happened in Early Bronze Age. Vinca culture ended in 4200 BC.. That's a 1300 year gap. How dumb you have to be not to comprehend that??

_

Wow wow wow, how dumb am I? ADMINISTRATOR please BAN this individual, no one has the right here to call someone dumb, especially when I argue that it is a supposition.

Dude you clearly have some kind of a problem, I am also not talking about huge expansions here, but small numbers, if we found 6000 BC e-v13 in Spain other in Split Croatia 5485 BC then what is wrong having this group in Vinca 4000 BC?
Again my supposition 'I never said E-V13 was the main carrier of the neolithic revolution, was talking about a later time or in smaller numbers, so in one word they came from far north Africa through Iberia Itali Greece, in around 6000 BC, gathered more in around Vinca, of course not as majority but with other G2, H2, then after 5000 BC it spread more in south Balkans, so this is pre ancient Greece as we know it started from 3000 BC, so by that time the so called Pelasgic people could have carried around 40% of this area of south east Balkans including central north Balkans, thats why maybe this region still have the highest % of E-V13, of course this is all supposition, and we need more ancient samples in this region.'


_
 Originally Posted by Aspurg 
I read it, E-L618 was a Cardial lineage it arrived from the Levant most likely, from PPNB, there is no evidence it arrived from North Africa directly.

_

And what evidence do you have it came from Levant? or it is as you say most likely!


_
 Originally Posted by Aspurg 
E-V13 has nothing to do with G2a. G2a receded at the same time E-V13 exploded. There is so much R1a in India.. So R1a must originate in India too..

_

Again, who said G2a has to do with E-V13? I dont think there was only G2a or even H2 at that time, we only have very very few samples, again if we have E-V13 in Spain 6000 BC then why not in Vinca 4000 BC!



_
 Originally Posted by Aspurg 
Some cognitive issues? You quote citation where it says there are three tested and you mention two tested. By the same "logic" we require thousands of samples from a single site. You you the same logic as Serbian autochtonists who claim that Iron Gates require sample of thousands of tested to be sure I2a Din is not there.. For the start there aren't that many skeletons..

_

Again, looks like you do have some problem with anyone supposing somthing else you argue, chill out dude, In a 2017 genetic study published in _Nature, the remains of six individuals ascribed to the Vinča culture was analyzed. Of the three samples of Y-DNA extracted, one belonged to G2a2b2a1a, one belonged to G2a2a, and one belonged to H2.

I SAID You can never conclude or generalize that all Vincas were G2a from only 2 samples G2a found, the other one is H2, lol chill out 



 Originally Posted by Aspurg 
Instead you choose to take this old path of "E-V13 SSA slaves", well I explained it to you it's no SSA and it's no slaves either. E-V13 used tumulii burial from early on, and it doesn't matter what was the exact cultural affinity.

Get off your high horse "I'm R1b look at me I'm so special lol", so you seem to have problem with V13 being part of some "dominator" group. Well, continue having this problem..



I never took the old path nor slaves, I was actually giving higher point to E-V13, again lol you seem to take my supposions in negative way and all wrong, I said ''So I think my suposition might have some relevance, that Pelasgic people (maybe around 50% E-V13) might have migrated from Vinca (and not only, so too from Dalmatia, Hungary, south Germany, maybe even in very small groups from Levant also) to more south eastern Balkans around 5000 BC, before ancient Greece, at this time yes we might have had some G2 and H2, maybe very few R1b and J2, then maybe with Ancient Greece there was a flood of migration, and maybe some more soffisticated individuals like R1b (sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who brought EI) who came from Yamnaya, I really dont see at 5000 BC as a majority in this area with R1b or J2, I think majority was G2, H2 and E-V13, only with the flood of Ancient Greece at 3000 BC we see a lot of R1b and maybe some J2.''

So see, even if I am R1b I suppose that E-V13 is more old in the balkans area and in today Europe



 Originally Posted by Aspurg 
How were R1b's more sophisticated in any way compared to EEF's??

Their culture is considered by the archaeologists to have been at the lower level than the Neolithic Europe..



Sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who might have brought IE, so again chill dude_

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## noUseForAname

> Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.


I would like to elaborate here more from you, and as this thread is about Pelasgians then we should dwell more into Pelasg and possible E-V13.

Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?


I believe there are many books about Pelasgians which i havent read yet, anyone has to share here anything would really appreciate.


This is what I find from some references, as far as I can see I dont see anywhere where it is a term used to several different populations

The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒ(i)ənz, -ɡiənz/; Ancient Greek: Πελασγοί, _Pelasgoí, singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by classical Greek writers to refer either to the ancestors or forerunners of the Greeks,[1][2] or to all inhabitants of Greece before the emergence or arrival of Greeks aware of their Greekness. In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[3]_"Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", though some ancient writers nonetheless described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts fell largely, though far from exclusively, within the territory which by the 5th century BC was inhabited by those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians and Aeolians.[4]

An ancient etymology based on mere similarity of sounds linked _pelasgos to pelargos ("stork") and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt (this is why I suppose and link Pelasgians with high E-V13)

_Gilbert Murray summarized the derivation from _pelas gē ("neighboring land")

_Julius Pokorny derived Pelasgoi from _*pelag-skoi ("flatland-inhabitants"); specifically "inhabitants of the Thessalian plain".[9] 

_Klein argued that the ancient Greek word for "sea", _pelagos and the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat) shared the same root, *plāk-, and that *pelag-skoi therefore meant "the sea men", where the sea is flat.[11] 

_The Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer: those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the _Iliad are among the allies of Troy. In the section known as the Catalogue of Trojans, 
they are mentioned between mentions of the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-eastern Europe (i.e., on the Hellespontine border of Thrace).[14] Homer calls their town or district "Larisa"[15] and characterises it as fertile, 
and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus, thus giving all of them names that were Greek or so thoroughly Hellenized that any foreign element has been effaced.

_The _Iliad also refers to "Pelasgic Argos",[18] which is most likely to be the plain of Thessaly,[19] and to "Pelasgic Zeus", living in and ruling over Dodona,[20] which must be the oracular one in Epirus._According to the _Iliad_, *Pelasgians were camping out on the shore together with the following tribes,* 
Towards the sea lie the Carians and the Paeonians, with curved bows, and the Leleges and Caucones, and the goodly Pelasgi.[21]
Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[24]

In a lost play by Aeschylus, _Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[30]

_The Roman poet Ovid describes the Greeks of the Trojan War as Pelasgians in his _Metamorphoses:[34]

_A second fragment states that *Pelasgus was the son of* *Zeus* and Niobe and that his son Lycaon founded a dynasty of kings of Arcadia.[36]

A fragment from the writings of Acusilaus asserts that the Peloponnesians were called "Pelasgians" after Pelasgus, a son of Zeus and Niobe.[37]

During Nanas's reign, the Pelasgians were driven out by the Greeks and departed for Italy. They landed at the mouth of the Po River, near the Etruscan city of Spina, 
then took the inland city "Crotona" (_Κρότωνα), and from there colonized Tyrrhenia. The inference is that Hellanicus believed the Pelasgians of Thessaly (and indirectly of the Peloponnese) to have been the ancestors of the Etruscans.[40]__@aspurg you might be right that Etruscans might have taken some of the Pelasgian language.

_Herodotus ambivalently classified the Pelasgian language as "barbarian" and discussed various areas inhabited (or previously inhabited) by Pelasgians/Pelasgian-speakers along with their different neighbors/co-residents:[42][43]

I am unable to state with certainty what language the Pelasgians spoke, but we could consider the speech of the Pelasgians who still exist in settlements above Tyrrhenia in the city of Kreston, 
formerly neighbors to the Dorians who at that time lived in the land now called Thessaliotis; also the Pelasgians who once lived with the Athenians and then settled Plakia and Skylake in the Hellespont; and along with those who 
lived with all the other communities and were once Pelasgian but changed their names. If one can judge by this evidence, the Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language.

And so, if the *Pelasgian language was spoken in all these places, the people of Attica being originally Pelasgian, must have learned a new language when they became Hellenes.*
Herodotus discussed the relationship between the Pelasgians and the Hellenes,[44][45] which, according to Pericles Georges, reflected the "rivalry within Greece itself between [...] Dorian Sparta and Ionian Athens."[46] 

*Herodotus stated that the entire territory of Greece (i.e., Hellas) was initially called "Pelasgia".[50]

*Moreover, Herodotus mentioned that the Aegean islanders "were a Pelasgian race, who in later times took the name Ionians" and that the Aeolians, according to the Hellenes, were known anciently as "Pelasgians."[57]

In his _Description of Greece, Pausanias mentions the Arcadians who state that Pelasgus (along with his followers) was the first inhabitant of their land.[67] Upon becoming king, Pelasgus invented huts, sheep-skin coats, 
and a diet consisting of acorns while governing the land named after him, "Pelasgia".[68] When Arcas became king, Pelasgia was renamed "Arcadia" and its inhabitants (the Pelasgians) were renamed "Arcadians".[69]_

Strabo As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.

He defines *Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus"* and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule.
*He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian.* Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, "Agylla". 
Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.[72]


*Archaeology*

During the early 20th century, archaeological excavations conducted by the Italian Archaeological School and by the American Classical School on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites within Attica revealed Neolithic dwellings, 
tools, pottery and skeletons from domesticated animals (i.e., sheep, fish). All of these discoveries showed significant resemblances to the Neolithic discoveries made on the Thessalian acropolises of Sesklo and Dimini. 
*These discoveries help provide physical confirmation of the literary tradition that describes the Athenians as the descendants of the Pelasgians,* *who appear to descend continuously from the Neolithic inhabitants in Thessaly. 
Overall, the archaeological evidence indicates that the site of the Acropolis was inhabited by farmers as early as the 6th millennium BC*.[93][Note 1]

In August and September 1926, members of the Italian School of Archaeology conducted trial excavations on the island of Lemnos. A short account of their excavations appeared in the _Messager d'Athénes for 3 January 1927. 
The overall purpose of the excavations was to shed light on the island's "Etrusco-Pelasgian" civilization. The excavations were conducted on the site of the city of Hephaisteia (i.e., Palaiopolis) where the Pelasgians, according to Herodotus, 
surrendered to Miltiades of Athens. There, a necropolis (c. 9th-8th centuries BC) was discovered revealing bronze objects, pots, and more than 130 ossuaries. The ossuaries contained distinctly male and female funeral ornaments. 
Male ossuaries contained knives and axes whereas female ossuaries contained earrings, bronze pins, necklaces, gold diadems, and bracelets. The decorations on some of the gold objects contained spirals of Mycenean origin, 
but had no Geometric forms. According to their ornamentation, the pots discovered at the site were from the Geometric period. However, the pots also preserved spirals indicative of Mycenean art. The results of the excavations 
indicate that the Early Iron Age inhabitants of Lemnos could be a remnant of a Mycenaean population and, in addition, the earliest attested reference to Lemnos is the Mycenaean Greek ra-mi-ni-ja, "Lemnian woman", written in Linear B syllabic script.[95][96][Note 2]_

During the 1980s, the Skourta Plain Project identified Middle Helladic and Late Helladic sites on mountain summits near the plains of Skourta in Boeotia. These fortified mountain settlements were, according to tradition, 
inhabited by Pelasgians up until the end of the Bronze Age. Moreover, the location of the sites is an indication that the Pelasgian inhabitants sought to distinguish themselves "ethnically" (a fluid term[97]) and economically from the Mycenaean Greeks who controlled the Skourta Plain.[98][Note 3]



Angela so from all these references I dont see anything like ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''  :Thinking:

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## Pax Augusta

> I would like to elaborate here more from you, and as this thread is about Pelasgians then we should dwell more into Pelasg and possible E-V13.
> 
> Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?
> 
> 
> I believe there are many books about Pelasgians which i havent read yet, anyone has to share here anything would really appreciate.
> 
> 
> This is what I find from some references, as far as I can see I dont see anywhere where it is a term used to several different populations



Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?

*Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians?* If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.

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## Aspurg

> Wow wow wow, how dumb am I? ADMINISTRATOR please BAN this individual, no one has the right here to call someone dumb, especially when I argue that it is a supposition.



So per you E-V13 expanded from Vinca culture which ended 4200 BC. Ended 4200 BC means no one would have expanded with Vinca at time time but earlier.. One expands with a flourishing culture and Vinca expanded 5500 BC. Ancestor of all E-V13 lived 2900 BC. Major expansions started 2300 BC. Besides Vinca culture belong to a different archaeological complex unrelated to Cardials which seems clearly connected with E-L618. No no wonder out of 3 tested none were E-V13..





> An ancient etymology based on *mere similarity of sounds* linked pelasgos to pelargos ("stork") and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt* (this is why I suppose and link Pelasgians with high E-V13)*



* Strabo is not a source when it comes to linguistics.* In linguistics *it is unacceptable* *to construct etymologies based on a "mere similarity" of sounds..* 
So because *you accepted this ridiculous etymology* *from an unqualified source* (which Strabo is for linguistics) because he had connected the Pelasgians with Egypt in order for your to connect the E-V13 with the arrival from Egypt.. 


From a genetic point of view E-V13's distant relatives were among the proto-Egyptians, such as V22, V12, but V13 separated fro mthese 12 000 years ago. First archaeological traces of Egypt are 8000 years old, and E-V13 and it's parent clade were found at that time in Europe. It is clear E-V13 had nothing to do with the Ancient Egypt. 


Not only for you is 5500 BC and 2300 BC the same thing but also for you the Y-DNA branches which separated *12000* years ago are also the same..

Ancient Egypt and Vinca?? So according to you Vincans were descended from Egypt?? :Laughing:  Did I misinterpret something?? You clearly said Vincans were heavy with E-V13 and ultimately the main reason why these people are Pelasgians is because pelasgos was "related" to pelargos "strok" which in turn means the Pelargoans "could have" migrated from Egypt.. So Vincans are from Egypt indeed..  :Laughing: 


And you are "offended" by something??  :Laughing:

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## noUseForAname

> Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?
> 
> *Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians?* If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.


Read the Archeology part above, I dont want to copy paste here again, it might not be much however as they were called Barbarian they might have not been the masters of buildings objects etc but there is a link as it is said on the sources! 


Nevertheles the findings in short "on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites within Attica revealed *Neolithic* *dwellings*, tools, pottery and skeletons from domesticated animals (i.e., sheep, fish). All of these discoveries showed significant resemblances to the Neolithic discoveries made on the Thessalian acropolises of Sesklo and Dimini. These discoveries help provide physical confirmation of the *literary tradition that describes the Athenians as the descendants of the* *Pelasgians*, who appear to descend continuously from the Neolithic inhabitants in Thessaly.
Overall, the archaeological evidence indicates that the site of the Acropolis was inhabited by *farmers* as early as the 6th millennium BC.[93][Note 1] 

In August and September 1926, members of the Italian School of Archaeology conducted trial excavations on the island of Lemnos. A short account of their excavations appeared in the _Messager d'Athénes for 3 January 1927.
The overall purpose of the excavations was to shed light on the island's "Etrusco-Pelasgian" civilization. The excavations were conducted on the site of the city of Hephaisteia (i.e., Palaiopolis) where the Pelasgians, according to Herodotus,
surrendered to Miltiades of Athens. There, a necropolis (c. 9th-8th centuries BC) was discovered revealing bronze objects, pots, and more than 130 ossuaries. The ossuaries contained distinctly male and female funeral ornaments.
Male ossuaries contained knives and axes whereas female ossuaries contained earrings, bronze pins, necklaces, gold diadems, and bracelets._

During the 1980s, the Skourta Plain Project identified Middle Helladic and Late Helladic sites on mountain summits near the plains of Skourta in Boeotia. These fortified mountain settlements were, according to tradition,
inhabited by *Pelasgians* up until the end of the Bronze Age. Moreover, the location of the sites is an indication that the *Pelasgian inhabitants sought to distinguish themselves* "ethnically" (a fluid term[97]) and economically from the Mycenaean Greeks who controlled the Skourta Plain.

Who were the *‘Pelasgians’ archaeologically*? 
Herodotus mentioned Pelasgian building activity which might be linked with the Early Helladic II period.

*Lerna* was the capital of the Peloponnesian proto-state in Early Bronze Age II Greece. A single ruler[1] of the chiefdom[2], lived in the palace (House of Tiles)[3] and used seals as a sign of prestige or/and social standing[4] at the Early Helladic II Lerna. He might be a ‘Pelasgian king’ of Pelasgian capital. 
Thus the Lerna proto-state was formed under the Greek influence (Anatolian-related Lefkandi I culture) on the ‘Pelasgian’ Early Helladic II culture. The Ezero culture was common source of Troy I–II and Middle Minoan I Crete.


The ‘Pelasgian’ language as a _satem_ substrate in Greek is a great enigma. This language or a dialectal group/koine might be close to Thracian, Albanian, or Armenian (see special issue below).
However, the origin of the Greek language was a difficult enigma for archaeologists during many decades. The scholars attempted to identify archaeological cultures of common Paleo-Balkan language, its Greek ancestor and other related languages of the group. 

Mythical ‘Pelasgians’ might be linguistic Paleo-Balkans, i. e. non-Greek peoples (Phrygians, Thracians, Albanians) but close relatives of the Greeks. 

First of all, an ancient idea of Pelasgian-Etruscan relations and the Pelasgians in Lemnos (where Lemnian = archaic Etruscan inscriptions were found) is not confirmed: Etruscan words are not found in ‘pre-Greek substrate’ as well as Etruscan-Albanian and Etruscan-Thracian parallels are few. 
According to an old hypothesis, Pelasgian might be similar to Thracian which might be compared with Albanian. If Phrygian _satem_ features (_azena_ ‘beard’ in Hesichius, _zemelos_ ‘earth’ in New Phrygian inscriptions) are late[1] and Phrygian was _centum_ initially then ‘Pelasgian’ (as the source of _satem_ elements in Greek and Linear A, B) might be a Thracian dialect, close to Albanian and (lesser?) to Armenian. 
The name of Lerna, where fortified House of the Tiles (Early Helladic II capital?) was built, might be related to _Λάρισα_, ‘citadel’ (‘Pelasgian’ capital?), Thracian _rera_ ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier _*lera_), Albanian. _lerë, -a_ ‘stones, fallen stones’[2], _λάρναξ_, ‘box’, _Λάρνασσος_ ‘an old name of the _Πάρνασσος_’[3]
_Pelasgian mystery solved_ 
Dorians were hostile to more ancient Achaeans in Sparta as well as Achaeans considered previous relative people ‘barbarians’

Homer (_Od._ 19.172–177) mentioned Eteocretans, Cydonians, Pelasgians, Achaeans, and Dorians as inhabitants of Crete.

https://www.academia.edu/32124901/Ch...GIAN_AND_GREEK


So not all people or some groups of people has to have Archeology like say Mycenaeans had, and I think they were not big, as Homer mentioned in a small Crete lived Eteocretans, Cydonians, Pelasgians, Achaeans, and Dorians


So back to you, _Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?_

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## Hawk

E-V13 = noble Pelasgians. :)

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## Aspurg

> Who were the *‘Pelasgians’ archaeologically*? 
> Herodotus mentioned Pelasgian building activity which might be linked with the Early Helladic II period.
> 
> *Lerna* was the capital of the Peloponnesian proto-state in Early Bronze Age II Greece. A single ruler[1] of the chiefdom[2],* lived in the palace (House of Tiles)*[3] and used seals as a sign of prestige or/and social standing[4] at the Early Helladic II Lerna. *He might be a ‘Pelasgian king’ of Pelasgian capital*.  
> Thus the Lerna proto-state was formed under the Greek influence (Anatolian-related Lefkandi I culture) on the ‘Pelasgian’ Early Helladic II culture. The Ezero culture was common source of Troy I–II and Middle Minoan I Crete.


 Indeed, he might be. And this Pelasgian king *was killed by the Cetina culture E-V13 heavy invaders from the north, sporting ware similar to proto-Greek Minyan ware*.. His proto-state was also eliminated in the process. So you've just answered your own question about E-V13 and Pelasgians.. Congrats.. :Good Job:

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## Hawk

I explained before that Cetina cannot be E-V13, Cardial farmer dated ~7500 YBP from Croatia still didn't have the E-V13 mutation, yet the Spanish 500 years latter did. So, approximately somewhere along the Alpine region E-V13 arose. If Cetina is the source of E-V13 we should see older and more basal E-V13 clades among Croatians/Herzegovinians, yet we don't. We see it among Germans and some old clades among Italians frequently.

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## Hawk

Add it that Lengyel, Sopot E-L618 which is close to Dalmatia and they are dated 4800 B.C.

The actual Spanish E-V13 is dated 5000 B.C. Do the math, it's highly unlikely it arose there.

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## Yetos

> Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?
> 
> *Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians?* If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.


at Τηνος And Lemnos islands only.

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## noUseForAname

> So per you E-V13 expanded from Vinca culture which ended 4200 BC. Ended 4200 BC means no one would have expanded with Vinca at time time but earlier.. One expands with a flourishing culture and Vinca expanded 5500 BC. Ancestor of all E-V13 lived 2900 BC. Major expansions started 2300 BC. Besides Vinca culture belong to a different archaeological complex unrelated to Cardials which seems clearly connected with E-L618. No no wonder out of 3 tested none were E-V13..


Again you are interpreting my thought wrong and you are concluding something I am supposing and which I am not even concluding myself  :Laughing: 

Never said E-V13 expanded from Vinca, at 4500 BC I believe E=V13 was already expanded all around Europe, didnt you say 7000 BC E-V13 is mutated in Europe and is European 100%? now for the moment we dont want to go back where it came from, either straight from north Africa or through Levant, so again 4500 BC E=V13 all around Europe, 5000 BC one in Spain already found, another one around 5000 BC in Split Croatia etc. So at 4500 BC in Vinca I dont think E-V13 was a minority there, probably around 30%, following with G2a H2 T and I2a J1, maybe noble people were mostly E-V13, just a supposition  :Grin: 
Pic said everything, E-V13 in 6000 BC
11.gif

E-V13 in 4000 BC
77.gif

So by 4000 BC, as seen on map we have E-V13 all over Balkans so to Cardial ware, and probably in these 2 locations with around 35%?

Therefore, why I link Pelasgians with E-V13 is that according to the map Helladic Neolithic 5000 BC there is E-V13 and since from the info given Pelasgians where thought to be native inhabitants before Ancient Greece and before Minoan civilization, I would not exclude G2a also to them.

Also can you see on this map in exact Vinca location E-V13 at 6000 BC? Also I never excluded a theory that it came from Levant as well
Interestingly this map shows 7000 BC north Thessaly area then 6000 BC expansion to Vinca locations, 5500 BC Peloponnese 
66.gif




> Ancient Egypt and Vinca?? So according to you Vincans were descended from Egypt?? Did I misinterpret something?? You clearly said Vincans were heavy with E-V13 and ultimately the main reason why these people are Pelasgians is because pelasgos was "related" to pelargos "strok" which in turn means the Pelargoans "could have" migrated from Egypt.. So Vincans are from Egypt indeed.. 
> And you are "offended" by something??


Yes I am offended because again you misinterpret everything, I meant since e1b is from north Africa including Egypt it might have came straight through Peloponnese and not other way around by 6000 BC, also wasnt there some strong ties also between ancient Egypt Early Dynasty period 3000 BC with today Peloponnese, Crete, Greece and South East Balkans respectively!

Well yes i think Vincas are descendent of today location of Egypt nile area in quite high percentage maybe around 30%, the rest G2a etc should have been from the Levant, according to the map E-V12 today Egypt Nile area to E-V13, if it was in Today Egypt 10000 BC then why not Vinca in 7000 BC?

Where do you think Vincas came from? West, North Europe or pontic steppe?

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## GregoryProma

Great job, is a very useful strategy to build links at a quick pace. Well, you made my work easy. Thanks for sharing such useful resources.very good sir nice aartical .

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## LeoJ

> I often wonder why we lack old samples from the Balkans and Anatolia for that matter. Is there no interest in excavating and analyzing or was cremation a major factor? It is a pity really, given that Balkans is a stepping stone for a lot of peoples and cultures. I am sure if we had more samples a lot would be clearer.


 Agree. Balkans were the melting pot for at least a third of all known haplogroups. Knowing the Balkan ancient picture would answer a huge number of historical puzzles.

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## LeoJ

> Pic said everything, E-V13 in 6000 BC Therefore, why I link Pelasgians with E-V13 is that according to the map Helladic Neolithic 5000 BC there is E-V13 and since from the info given Pelasgians where thought to be native inhabitants before Ancient Greece and before Minoan civilization, I would not exclude G2a also to them. Also can you see on this map in exact Vinca location E-V13 at 6000 BC? Also I never excluded a theory that it came from Levant as well Interestingly this map shows 7000 BC north Thessaly area then 6000 BC expansion to Vinca locations, 5500 BC Peloponnese Yes I am offended because again you misinterpret everything, I meant since e1b is from north Africa including Egypt it might have came straight through Peloponnese and not other way around by 6000 BC, also wasnt there some strong ties also between ancient Egypt Early Dynasty period 3000 BC with today Peloponnese, Crete, Greece and South East Balkans respectively! Well yes i think Vincas are descendent of today location of Egypt nile area in quite high percentage maybe around 30%, the rest G2a etc should have been from the Levant, according to the map E-V12 today Egypt Nile area to E-V13, if it was in Today Egypt 10000 BC then why not Vinca in 7000 BC? Where do you think Vincas came from? West, North Europe or pontic steppe?


 Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.

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## Dushman

> * Strabo is not a source when it comes to linguistics.* In linguistics *it is unacceptable* *to construct etymologies based on a "mere similarity" of sounds..* 
> So because *you accepted this ridiculous etymology* *from an unqualified source* (which Strabo is for linguistics) because he had connected the Pelasgians with Egypt in order for your to connect the E-V13 with the arrival from Egypt..


Without getting involved on the genetic part of the conversation, just wanted to contribute by saying that Pelargos/Pelasgian, Ciconian, Cauconians, Leleges, all mean “storks”.

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## LeoJ

> Without getting involved on the genetic part of the conversation, just wanted to contribute by saying that Pelargos/Pelasgian, Ciconian, Cauconians, Leleges, all mean “storks”.


 “storks, what the heck those characters are ? What keyboard/language you used ? I saw this many times here...

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## Hawk

> Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.


E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania.

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## LeoJ

> E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania.


 Yes and no. The biggest problem noted along those debates is the GENERIC nomination of EV-13, + or -. Because there are EV-13 subclades and subclades, with different ages. So, your statement ''E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania'' is at least improper if not totally inaccurate. 'Pure' EV-13 from YFULL is: ''formed 7800 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp''. It is so hard to put some (+) or (-) before or after EV-13 to clarify the subject ? Back to my opinion, all I was said that the thracians had theirs origins in Turdas culture horizon III from where they spread all over the Balkans. I can't bond a people to a sole/unique Haplo because we all know a culture cannot be identified by only one haplo. I believe, Turdas EV-13 subclade(s) got a serious IE infusion from Krs/Cris culture from West and generate a very viable population, the thracians. Only my 2 cents.

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## Hawk

> Yes and no. The biggest problem noted along those debates is the GENERIC nomination of EV-13, + or -. Because there are EV-13 subclades and subclades, with different ages. So, your statement ''E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania'' is at least improper if not totally inaccurate. 'Pure' EV-13 from YFULL is: ''formed 7800 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp''. It is so hard to put some (+) or (-) before or after EV-13 to clarify the subject ? Back to my opinion, all I was said that the thracians had theirs origins in Turdas culture horizon III from where they spread all over the Balkans. I can't bond a people to a sole/unique Haplo because we all know a culture cannot be identified by only one haplo. I believe, Turdas EV-13 subclade(s) got a serious IE infusion from K�r�s/Cris culture from West and generate a very viable population, the thracians. Only my 2 cents.


We have the Greeks and Illyrians as well, Epirotans, Macedonians.

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## Aspurg

> Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.


 There is nothing to agree or disagree, anyone who even phantoms connecting the E-V13 spread with Vinca culture spread is either a troll, hopelessly dumb, or he has some other motives.. I do not bother to read verbal diarrhea of noUseForAname.. E-V13 is EBA hg and all of these cultures you mention are irrelevant for E-V13 spread.. Plus they were dominated by the G2a clades and even C-V20, H2 must have been more common there than E-V13..

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## LeoJ

> There is nothing to agree or disagree, anyone who even phantoms connecting the E-V13 spread with Vinca culture spread is either a troll, hopelessly dumb, or he has some other motives.. I do not bother to read verbal diarrhea of noUseForAname.. E-V13 is EBA hg and all of these cultures you mention are irrelevant for E-V13 spread.. Plus they were dominated by the G2a clades and even C-V20, H2 must have been more common there than E-V13..


 Man, do you think you're some kind of a superior boss offending anyone who's not on your side ? Is that a DISCUSSION forum, or what ? Do you monopolize the whole DNA subject here and all others are stupid ? I don't want the moderator bane you for the ongoing insults because you are really a pro here and we learn a lot from your's debates. But if you want a gipsy style word fight, you will get it soon. I told you, I have this beliefs about EV-13 and thracians and you could not provide sufficient credible arguments to sustain that EV13 is EBA. EV-13 is FORMED about 8000 ybp, well beyond the EBA, despite the TMRCA of 4900ybp (which can be pushed further back in history whensoever new ancient DNA will be found) and you just don't cope with that matter. Off course,it seems you don't read whole what others said, because right above I wrote something analytical about this ''EV13'' aspect.

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## Aspurg

> Man, do you think you're some kind of a superior boss offending anyone who's not on your side ? Is that a DISCUSSION forum, or what ? Do you monopolize the whole DNA subject here and all others are stupid ?


 Just because it is a free discussion it doesn't mean somebody should get away posting nonsensical content at least not in a serious discussion. What this guy posted was nonsensical or more colloquially "stupid". Does posting nonsense make one look "smart" or "stupid"?? It is not about throwing insults, rather stating facts..

Besides the said person is basically insulting the E-V13 as a hg by trying to reduce it to a mere EEF farmer lineage which it is not (because of BA expansion). So I won't be playing nice with such a person. 





> I don't want the moderator bane you for the ongoing insults because you are really a pro here and we learn a lot from your's debates. But if you want a gipsy style word fight, you will get it soon.


 I do not run away from a fight, and it is not easy to prevail in such a contest against me because I happen to know alot about humans, including their behavioral patterns.. 

The only reason I came to Eupedia is to debate on some hg's, initially it was just the one. I would say if the forum is about serious discussion the ones posting nonsense should be banned, there is no reason to debate what has already been determined as factual. Unless that is the plan, nonsensical talk can be "productive" in a sense that it increases the traffic, online chitchat "forum" can have alot more success than a "serious" site. I have experience in moderating much larger sites than Eupedia (not genetics, ethnology related, most people are not into that.)..




> I told you, I have this beliefs about EV-13 and thracians and you could not provide sufficient credible arguments to sustain that EV13 is EBA. EV-13 is FORMED about 8000 ybp, well beyond the EBA, despite the TMRCA of 4900ybp (which can be pushed further back in history whensoever new ancient DNA will be found) and you just don't cope with that matter. Off course,it seems you don't read whole what others said, because right above I wrote something analytical about this ''EV13'' aspect.


 You need to comprehend the basics of Genetics. Formation date is not relevant when it comes to estimating the expansion time, TMRCA date is. Because From 8000 ybp to 4900 ybp E-V13 was a minor lineage likely confined to an area. 8000 ybp E-V13 simply separated from its sister Neolithic E-L618 branches. This 8000 ybp date (TMRCA for L618) is relevant for a small Neolithic expansion, and you see two other L618 clades, including one in Albania.. Again you are looking at the E-L618's TMRCA.. Expansions follow the TMRCA not formation date..

Parallel to V13 there are 43 other SNP's.. These signify a long bottleneck V13 went through. What is relevant is that millions of modern V13+ men descend from one person who lived 4900 ybp, that is already sufficient grounds to say that the E-V13 EBA bottleneck itself has nothing to do with any sort of Neolithic expansion whatsoever, be it Vinca, Tripillia, Lengyel, Cardial etc. It doesn't matter if an ancient DNA is found splitting the V13 node, he will be the sample which hasn't left any living descendants.. And how is that relevant for V13 bottleneck which has left huge number of descendants?

I do read, usually all or most, but already after few words I can see the pattern, like with this guy..

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## Hawk

E-V13 descend from a man who lived in 4600-4700 YBP, his name was Proteus and he traded with Ancient Egypt where he was put into hard labour for 15 years in building the Pyramids. Proteus was a strong man, he fathered many sons.

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## Archetype0ne

> Just because it is a free discussion it doesn't mean somebody should get away posting nonsensical content at least not in a serious discussion. What this guy posted was nonsensical or more colloquially "stupid". Does posting nonsense make one look "smart" or "stupid"?? It is not about throwing insults, rather stating facts..
> 
> Besides the said person is basically insulting the E-V13 as a hg by trying to reduce it to a mere EEF farmer lineage which it is not (because of BA expansion). So I won't be playing nice with such a person. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not run away from a fight, and it is not easy to prevail in such a contest against me because I happen to know alot about humans, including their behavioral patterns.. 
> 
> ...


I think the only issue is your rhetoric, because your points make total sense, pretty sound arguments overall. As someone who has had similar argumentative style I completely understand :) Somehow arguments to people like us, even ones based in facts, get pretty confrontational.

You are pretty knowledgeable regarding popular genetics and know your way around YDNA. But I would advice to be more patient with people who might not be on the same page. Thing with science is to reach a consensus, which in the end is just a consensus, even the strongest theory is up for falsification, and I think that is the point. The thing is even with really strong arguments, it is easy to make someone disagree with you simply on rhetorical grounds, due to confrontational argumentative style (talking from experience trust me). This way a consensus is avoided, even when both parties would otherwise agree...

Now, in the past I would take statements I perceived as wrong confrontationaly. And act similarly. But I think its very taxing for oneself to go that route. Some patience is beneficial both to your persuasive effort as well as educating someone that might not be on the same page.

PS: I am curious. How come you have such disdain for farmer lineages? IMO they are as important, if not more important in the development of modern men/societies as any invading Bronze Age "alphas*"  :Embarassed:  :Laughing: (*not really my opinion, I find it funny, but somehow I get the sense that that is your worldview)...

Personally I do not really buy that much the narrative and dichotomy among anthropological forums, of ubermensch and plebs, invaders and helots, bronze age alphas and farmers... But that is just me, I am not sold.

But keep in mind people have different world views, for some people being an ancient farmer, among the first to thrust humanity into an era of surplus, the kind of surplus that allowed, V13 like people to have millions of descendants today is a pretty big deal  :Wary:  :Rolleyes: .
So maybe when they try to argue for a more ancient origin of V13, they do not mean to degrade your lineage...

PPS: My paternal ancestors owned and ran large farms up to 60 years ago, too much land to even be worked by one family, necessitating sharecroppers. I am in no way ashamed that my grandfathers when they were not needed in conflicts used to farm. Let alone any shame for what some ancestor 4000 years ago might have done to survive.

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## Aspurg

> I think the only issue is your rhetoric, because your points make total sense, pretty sound arguments overall. As someone who has had similar argumentative style I completely understand :) Somehow arguments to people like us, even ones based in facts, get pretty confrontational.
> 
> You are pretty knowledgeable regarding popular genetics and know your way around YDNA. But I would advice to be more patient with people who might not be on the same page. Thing with science is to reach a consensus, which in the end is just a consensus, even the strongest theory is up for falsification, and I think that is the point. The thing is even with really strong arguments, it is easy to make someone disagree with you simply on rhetorical grounds, due to confrontational argumentative style (talking from experience trust me). This way a consensus is avoided, even when both parties would otherwise agree...
> Now, in the past I would take statements I perceived as wrong confrontationaly. And act similarly. But I think its very taxing for oneself to go that route. Some patience is beneficial both to your persuasive effort as well as educating someone that might not be on the same page.


 That much is true, one needs to have patience, but also I wasn't born with knowledge, I gained it, and these people who are not on the same page can make an effort and browse the forum. That's what I did originally, I didn't ask anyone for any explanation and clarification..





> PS: I am curious. How come you have such disdain for farmer lineages? IMO they are as important, if not more important in the development of modern men/societies as any invading Bronze Age "alphas*" (*not really my opinion, I find it funny, but somehow I get the sense that that is your worldview)...
> 
> Personally I do not really buy that much the narrative and dichotomy among anthropological forums, of ubermensch and plebs, invaders and helots, bronze age alphas and farmers... But that is just me, I am not sold.
> 
> But keep in mind people have different world views, for some people being an ancient farmer, among the first to thrust humanity into an era of surplus, the kind of surplus that allowed, V13 like people to have millions of descendants today is a pretty big deal .
> So maybe when they try to argue for a more ancient origin of V13, they do not mean to degrade your lineage...
> 
> PPS: My paternal ancestors owned and ran large farms up to 60 years ago, too much land to even be worked by one family, necessitating sharecroppers. I am in no way ashamed that my grandfathers when they were not needed in conflicts used to farm. Let alone any shame for what some ancestor 4000 years ago might have done to survive.


 These forums are indeed full of alpha vs beta, conqueror vs conquered etc. like are other forums in another way (in sports forums people argue all the time who's better etc.). I don't have disdain for EEF's, but IE's were the conquerors, EEF's were wiped out basically, EEF remnants be it cultural or genetic which survived did so by becoming "militarized" themselves. Etruscans, non-IE's for example were not "peaceful farmers". These EEF's from 7000 ybp were forgotten history 3000 ybp. In fact Early Rome was often dominated by the Etruscans, and Romans learned alot from them. That's how Roman Republic came to be, as Romans finally managed to liberate themselves from the Etruscan yoke in 509 BC.

In Ancient Greece pre-IE elements had huge influence in culture and autosomal DNA ofc. Not necessarily EEF (more of Minoan influence).

Farming was something practiced by most IE groups in Antiquity, the original IE's were nomadic people. Only peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians continued to live that lifestyle in Antiquity. Which is why they were genetically still pretty close to proto-IE's. Even Slavs were more distant from the proto-IE's, as they mixed with some non-IE EHG's.. So most of IE groups got sedentized and that usually meant taking up farming.

----------


## LeoJ

> Just because it is a free discussion it doesn't mean somebody should get away posting nonsensical content at least not in a serious discussion. What this guy posted was nonsensical or more colloquially "stupid". Does posting nonsense make one look "smart" or "stupid"?? It is not about throwing insults, rather stating facts.. Besides the said person is basically insulting the E-V13 as a hg by trying to reduce it to a mere EEF farmer lineage which it is not (because of BA expansion). So I won't be playing nice with such a person. I do not run away from a fight, and it is not easy to prevail in such a contest against me because I happen to know alot about humans, including their behavioral patterns.. The only reason I came to Eupedia is to debate on some hg's, initially it was just the one. I would say if the forum is about serious discussion the ones posting nonsense should be banned, there is no reason to debate what has already been determined as factual. Unless that is the plan, nonsensical talk can be "productive" in a sense that it increases the traffic, online chitchat "forum" can have alot more success than a "serious" site. I have experience in moderating much larger sites than Eupedia (not genetics, ethnology related, most people are not into that.).. You need to comprehend the basics of Genetics. Formation date is not relevant when it comes to estimating the expansion time, TMRCA date is. Because From 8000 ybp to 4900 ybp E-V13 was a minor lineage likely confined to an area. 8000 ybp E-V13 simply separated from its sister Neolithic E-L618 branches. This 8000 ybp date (TMRCA for L618) is relevant for a small Neolithic expansion, and you see two other L618 clades, including one in Albania.. Again you are looking at the E-L618's TMRCA.. Expansions follow the TMRCA not formation date..


 But you're exactly like ...this guy. No impartiality, huge consideration of itself an ofc the 'master-of-all' self haplo, a toolbag of preconceived ideas and no tolerance to other point of view. I'm aware of the albanian flooding continuous search for a 'golden' ancestry (stupid, ofc) but so you're. I must warn you you're not for the first time wrong about some old arguments which now are obsolete in the light of new discoveries; so may be it with your not enough proven EBA EV13 invasions. And I bet here you're wrong again. On the other hand, you think you know about DNA stuff but it's clear you don't have more notions than a regular guy using Wiki. About 'formed' and TMRCA you realy know NOTHING, because those notions aren't precise like you think. You know much of history but lack a mathematical mind. Look, and digest later, what are the real deal about, I quote: ''Formed" is the date on which the branch which WOULD contain the mutation diverged from other known branches. The mutation itself could have occurred at any time in between "formed" and "TMRCA". And: ''In real life (not just on paper), a patrilineal branch is a line of descent that diverges from its brethren. This branching is a biological fact, regardless of whether or not it is accompanied by a reliable SNP difference. Consider the very ancient haplotree branching dating from tens of thousands of years ago. In many cases, two "adjacent" branch points (e.g., TMRCA of C vs. TMRCA of C2) are separated by scores or even hundreds of SNPs. Without intermediate examples, we have no idea which of those many SNPs occurred first and which last.'' So, you can't mathematically/biologically distinct correctly the notions and only spray all us here with 'absolute notions', when we all know life and so the history is not....absolute. Even more in this field is a lot of 'relativism' for sure. Any time, new DNA evidences can occur and your EBA lame theory will be out. I bet again for a further push of EV13 TMRCA in time, understand bully boy ? Can I bet something here your 'highness'', just rhetorically because I don't need you're silver dollar swanning around shit. Capito ?

----------


## Hawk

Can u pack your shit, and do not mention the name of Albanians at all. Most of Albanians i know, the reasonable ones give reasonable explanation of the spread of E-V13, unlike some Balkan Slavs who insecure of their ancestry attack Albanians, using some gaps in historical timefrimes they fantasize about various shitty theories. I have seen Romanians cucking to them quite frequently against Albanians.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Can u pack your shit, and do not mention the name of Albanians at all. Most of Albanians i know, the reasonable ones give reasonable explanation of the spread of E-V13, unlike some Balkan Slavs who insecure of their ancestry attack Albanians, using some gaps in historical timefrimes they fantasize about various shitty theories. I have seen Romanians cucking to them quite frequently against Albanians.


I legit have no idea what is the reason for all the hate boners, implicit or explicit, from people not even discussing with us, or about us...

Could be a couple of things, but given the fact that we never even invaded any of our neighbors, counting so many wars... this leads me to believe its either "education" or should I say "indoctrination" from agenda driven Balkan schools, or some sick inferiority complex, but most likely both.

PS: LeoJ

WTF? does this 


> I'm aware of the albanian flooding continuous search for a 'golden' ancestry (stupid, ofc) but so you're.


 have to do with any of the points in your reply? Last time I checked we are not... In fact we got plenty of history, mostly attested by foreigners, exporting leaders and generals far and wide. But your main contact with Albanians if probably on Youtube  :Embarassed:  :Laughing:  so... kinda your fault... 

Listen to Progon and don't mention our name in vain. Kapish?


PPS: Basarabs/Draculesti, Ghica, Basta ring a bell?

----------


## Dushman

> But you're exactly like ...this guy. No impartiality, huge consideration of itself an ofc the 'master-of-all' self haplo, a toolbag of preconceived ideas and no tolerance to other point of view. I'm aware of the albanian flooding continuous search for a 'golden' ancestry (stupid, ofc) but so you're. I must warn you you're not for the first time wrong about some old arguments which now are obsolete in the light of new discoveries; so may be it with your not enough proven EBA EV13 invasions.


Can you stick to the topic please? 

Albanians don’t need reminders from a confused nation split between a Latin or Dacian origin when in fact you’re more Slavic than many actual Slavs in the Balkans.

----------


## Wanderer

> That much is true, one needs to have patience, but also I wasn't born with knowledge, I gained it, and these people who are not on the same page can make an effort and browse the forum. That's what I did originally, I didn't ask anyone for any explanation and clarification..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These forums are indeed full of alpha vs beta, conqueror vs conquered etc. like are other forums in another way (in sports forums people argue all the time who's better etc.). I don't have disdain for EEF's, but IE's were the conquerors, EEF's were wiped out basically, EEF remnants be it cultural or genetic which survived did so by becoming "militarized" themselves. Etruscans, non-IE's for example were not "peaceful farmers". These EEF's from 7000 ybp were forgotten history 3000 ybp. In fact Early Rome was often dominated by the Etruscans, and Romans learned alot from them. That's how Roman Republic came to be, as Romans finally managed to liberate themselves from the Etruscan yoke in 509 BC.
> 
> In Ancient Greece pre-IE elements had huge influence in culture and autosomal DNA ofc. Not necessarily EEF (more of Minoan influence).
> 
> Farming was something practiced by most IE groups in Antiquity, the original IE's were nomadic people. Only peoples like Scythians, Sarmatians continued to live that lifestyle in Antiquity. Which is why they were genetically still pretty close to proto-IE's. Even Slavs were more distant from the proto-IE's, as they mixed with some non-IE EHG's.. So most of IE groups got sedentized and that usually meant taking up farming.


Etruscans came after the trojan war from anatolia. They were trojan or one if the trojan allies

----------


## binx

> Etruscans came after the trojan war from anatolia. They were trojan or one if the trojan allies


 that's just a legend. Etruscans were an indigenous population of Italy.

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## Archetype0ne

> that's just a legend. Etruscans were an indigenous population of Italy.


The truth is we do not really know precisely the veracity of the legend.
So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans. But this is largely due to the fact that we are in total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA from the period, for any meaningful comparison. 

So naturally using Occam's razor such theories should not be taken at face value as true.

Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know if* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it? A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.

As a final side-note, I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus. Furthermore, I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened. 

I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.

----------


## Hawk

There is a lot of gaps still. Anatolia, Balkans, even a lot of places around Europe are undersampled. Too much credit have been given to resolve the IE question.

Nevertheless, finding the major Y-DNA among Etruscans would be interesting. If they really came from Urnfield Culture (since Urnfield was so diverse and included various people), then they were EEF survivors until EIA. Or who knows. Let's see.

----------


## noUseForAname

> There is nothing to agree or disagree, anyone who even phantoms connecting the E-V13 spread with Vinca culture spread is either a troll, hopelessly dumb, or he has some other motives.. I do not bother to read verbal diarrhea of noUseForAname.. E-V13 is EBA hg and all of these cultures you mention are irrelevant for E-V13 spread.. Plus they were dominated by the G2a clades and even C-V20, H2 must have been more common there than E-V13..


Again no one said E-V13 spread with Vinca culture, Again you are interpreting my thought wrong and you are concluding something I am supposing and which I am not even concluding myself  :Laughing: 

Also again, show more sources and dont only list your suppositions or you crap lol, on the other hand show respect to others otherwise you should get banned cause of your behavior  :Disappointed:

----------


## Wanderer

> that's just a legend. Etruscans were an indigenous population of Italy.


Not a legend. Is true. They were not indigenous. Historical accounts say they came from elsewhere. And their script was greek but written from right to left. Also
Their architecture was more similar to anatolian architecture during its time

Plus I believe dna showed they were similar to anatolians

----------


## binx

> The truth is we do not really know precisely the veracity of the legend.
> So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans. But this is largely due to the fact that we are in total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA from the period, for any meaningful comparison. 
> 
> So naturally using Occam's razor such theories should not be taken at face value as true.
> 
> Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know if* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it? A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.
> 
> As a final side-note, I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus. Furthermore, I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened. 
> 
> I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.



The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.





> Not a legend. Is true. They were not indigenous. Historical accounts say they came from elsewhere. And their script was greek but written from right to left. Also
> Their architecture was more similar to anatolian architecture during its time
> 
> Plus I believe dna showed they were similar to anatolians



The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins. Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.

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## kingjohn

> The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins.* Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.


he might be a troll....  :Thinking:

----------


## binx

> he might be a troll....


yes, likely so

----------


## Archetype0ne

> *So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans.* But this is largely due to the fact that we are in *total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA* from the period, for any meaningful comparison. 
> 
> So naturally using Occam's razor *such theories should not be taken at face value as true.*
> 
> Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know i*f* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it?* A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.
> 
> As a final side-note, *I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus.* Furthermore, *I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.*Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that *a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened.* 
> 
> I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.






> The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.


I am not sure what I did to warrant such response.

Where did I state these things you put in my arguments?
Are you saying there was absolutely ZERO connection to the Aegean 1300 BC between Etruria and Ilion?
Are you saying a kin/ family could not have traveled that route, giving rise to the legend?
See I do not put words in your mouth... But if you indeed are saying anything to that effect... Maybe you are not informed.  :Laughing: 




> *If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.*


What? Where did I even connect them to modern Albanians.  :Suspicious: 
I re read my message and seriously have no clue where I even implied such a thing.

Sad state of affairs, when people project points of view onto you and get upvoted. I guess this forum for certain has no problem with projection. 

PS:

"A 2019 genetic study published in the journal _Science analyzed the remains of eleven Iron Age individuals from the areas around Rome, of which four were Etruscan individuals, one buried in Veio Grotta Gramiccia from the Villanovan period (900-800 BC) and three buried in La Mattonara Necropolis near Civitavecchia from the Orientalizing period (700-600 BC).

__The only sample of Y-DNA__ extracted_ belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC, and carried exactly the M314 derived allele also found in a Middle Bronze Age individual from Croatia (1631-1531 calBCE). While the four samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups U5a1, H, T2b32, K1a4.[64] Therefore, Etruscans had also Steppe-related ancestry despite speaking a pre-Indo-European language."


So miss me with your BS.

----------


## Dushman

> The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.
> 
> 
> The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins. Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.


Relax and leave your Albanophonia and mind reading skills out of this topic. Nobody here said anything that about Etruscans being Albanians. 

Yes, we all know for some time now that Etruscans are similar to Latins and honestly I don’t know ever doubted that. Neighbours tend to be similar everywhere in the world no matter the language they speak. 

But some ydna and autosomal test don’t disprove that a ruling minority couldn’t have come from Anatolia or elsewhere. 

Personally I don’t really care but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. That region was a cultural center when Italy and the entire Europe was divided between tribes. 

Similarly the Mycenaean had very little Steppe but nobody here is saying that the Hellenic and Indo-European languages were spread from Greece just because that early Greek was autosomally “local”.

----------


## noUseForAname

............

----------


## LeoJ

> Can u pack your shit, and do not mention the name of Albanians at all. Most of Albanians i know, the reasonable ones give reasonable explanation of the spread of E-V13, unlike some Balkan Slavs who insecure of their ancestry attack Albanians, using some gaps in historical timefrimes they fantasize about various shitty theories. I have seen Romanians cucking to them quite frequently against Albanians.


 So, you saw nothing. I'm not siding any stupid 'faction' here, but I saw many albanians suffering from that frustration. Let moderator Angela say if not so !

----------


## LeoJ

> Can you stick to the topic please? Albanians don’t need reminders from a confused nation split between a Latin or Dacian origin when in fact you’re more Slavic than many actual Slavs in the Balkans.


 I don't even care about that. I don't care about nothing here, only the scientific facts. But I saw many 'arse impaled' albanians jumping to the others throat continuously. Again, let moderator Angela say how many times she (or he) gave warnings to you, albanians, for exceeding the forum rules. So, shut up, and maintain the scientific compass, without forcing the explanations to favour own history.

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## LeoJ

> _The only sample of Y-DNA__ extracted_ belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC, and carried exactly the M314 derived allele also found in a Middle Bronze Age individual from Croatia (1631-1531 calBCE). While the four samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups U5a1, H, T2b32, K1a4.[64] Therefore, Etruscans had also Steppe-related ancestry despite speaking a pre-Indo-European language."


Can you, albanians, stop the ongoing mental spam of anything related with your ancestry ? I saw a continuous 'auto-historical elevations' of every single fact described here in such manner that is so annoying that I must stop reading anything if I see the red albanian flag until situation will turn around. Not in vain in the commie era Albania, with Romania and Bulgaria were (and unfortunately still are !) the last mohicans of the Europe.

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## LeoJ

> Relax and leave your Albanophonia and mind reading skills out of this topic. 
> That region was a cultural center when Italy and the entire Europe was divided between tribes.


So you, relax and leave your understandable immature Albanophilia. 
Which is that (super)region you're referring when Italy was full of tribes ? The Himalayan Shangri-La ?

----------


## Hawk

> So, you saw nothing. I'm not siding any stupid 'faction' here, but I saw many albanians suffering from that frustration. Let moderator Angela say if not so !


I swear that you guys are so dishonest with yourselves and with others that it amazes me. Go cuck to Balkan Slavs, and plot a hypothesis that we come from Moldova or North Caucasus.

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## MOESAN

Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?

----------


## Dushman

> I don't even care about that. I don't care about nothing here, only the scientific facts. But I saw many 'arse impaled' albanians jumping to the others throat continuously. Again, let moderator Angela say how many times she (or he) gave warnings to you, albanians, for exceeding the forum rules. So, shut up, and maintain the scientific compass, without forcing the explanations to favour own history.


You keep repeating how we Albanians keep jumping on everyone’s throats when we’re discussing Etruscans. Not to prolong this, Ok, noted, apologies if we attacked you. Cheers. 

And as for the region I was referring to, it’s obviously Anatolia.




> Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?



Moesan, my friend, this is the result of both our human nature and Balkan nature together. 

From the simply human side, people tend to dislike and misunderstand everything someone says if he/she is from a nation they don’t like. 

From the Balkan side, our own agendas prevent us from accepting our neighbours’ claims as it will affect our own cultural/territorial claims. I don’t know why many Romanians hate us when we don’t even share borders, I guess it’s their common Slavic heritage belonging to a majority of I2a + R1a and old Orthodox brotherhood ties. 

We Albanians are not any better in this regard, but we’ve been simply lucky to belong mostly to Proto-Balkan haplogroups and that goes in accordance to our own territorial claims.

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## LeoJ

> I swear that you guys are so dishonest with yourselves and with others that it amazes me. Go cuck to Balkan Slavs, and plot a hypothesis that we come from Moldova or North Caucasus.


Did I spoke to deaf ears, or on some juvenile mental, pal ? I don't care about finding 'fine origins' and/or praising this or that fabricating fascination history ancestry......like many of you here. I don't care if your mother, or my mother, was a whore, I care to know all about my unknown mother line(age). All what I'm for is to maintain a scientific logical perspective, to talk about all sorts of possibilities and to acquire the news in that domain. I'm clear enough ? Because enough it's enough.

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## LeoJ

> Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?


Absolutely agree.

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## LeoJ

> From the Balkan side, our own agendas prevent us from accepting our neighbours’ claims as it will affect our own cultural/territorial claims. I don’t know why many Romanians hate us when we don’t even share borders, I guess it’s their common Slavic heritage belonging to a majority of I2a + R1a and old Orthodox brotherhood ties. 
> We Albanians are not any better in this regard, but we’ve been simply lucky to belong mostly to Proto-Balkan haplogroups and that goes in accordance to our own territorial claims.


I don't give a shit on someone's territorial claims, nor even on ours, you medieval pal ! Hey, it's now the XXI century, long after the bread 'was shared' in the XVII'th, XVIII'th or XIX'th. Please fix your's 'time-clock' and stay calm. You have enough lands, we have enough lands. Use your energy to take Albania out of the last places in Europe. And Romania too. And Moldova too. And all others, too. Capito ? All peoples have enough and is no need to die many (millions)more for some retarded point of view.

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## Archetype0ne

Did you take your pills mate? 
Stop vomiting all over the forum.
And for the last time, keep your hatred towards Albanians in your tummy. And Albanians out of your filthy mouth.

----------


## Dushman

> All what I'm for is to maintain a scientific logical perspective, to talk about all sorts of possibilities and to acquire the news in that domain. I'm clear enough ? Because enough it's enough.


Mate, you just dropped the theory that E-V13 spread the Vinca culture and yet you’re the loudest “scientific logical perspective” crusader in Eupedia. 

And why are you calling me medieval? I just discovered this forum and I barely made any posts? Maybe seeing the Albanian flag on my profile triggers you into starting an argument with all the Albanians in any possible forum. 😂 

Now can we respectfully stop talking to each other entirely and focus on contributing with useful information on Pelasgians and E-V13. 

One of the most knowledgeable posters on E-V13 was Aspurg but it seems you made him abandon this topic.

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## Wanderer

Etruscans were probably foreigners that absorbed some of the local population.

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## LeoJ

> Did you take your pills mate? 
> Stop vomiting all over the forum.
> And for the last time, keep your hatred towards Albanians in your tummy. And Albanians out of your filthy mouth.


Sorry, seems you're totally absurd and incompetent. Did you read my last reply ? Nevermind, it's useless for someones, I forgot. I don't have any hate towards ANYBODY, you silly chooco-peker. Point.

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## Hawk

> Did you take your pills mate? 
> Stop vomiting all over the forum.
> And for the last time, keep your hatred towards Albanians in your tummy. And Albanians out of your filthy mouth.


Just ignore him, notice how he is mimicking some of the posts of Angela, especially the enough is enough part to gain her attention and mental support. This guy is so bitter that if he bites his tounge he will die poisoned.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Just ignore him, notice how he is mimicking some of the posts of Angela, especially the enough is enough part to gain her attention and mental support. This guy is so bitter that if he bites his tounge he will die poisoned.


You are right, if it wasn't so pathetic it would be funny.

Check this, he calls the Mod by name in the same post he mentions "arese impaled Albanians". 
Despite reporting two of his posts, after he spams two pages on Pelasgians with Albanophobia, mods really could not care less.




> I don't even care about that. I don't care about nothing here, only the scientific facts. But I saw many '*arse impaled' albanians* jumping to the others throat continuously. Again, *let moderator Angela say* how many times she (or he) gave warnings to you, albanians, for exceeding the forum rules. So, shut up, and maintain the scientific compass, without forcing the explanations to favour own history.



Quite pathetic if you ask me.
At times like this I lose respect for the moderation on this forum. There is no excuse for this, the posts have been up for days.

----------


## Aspurg

> One of the most knowledgeable posters on E-V13 was Aspurg but it seems you made him abandon this topic.


 I didn't abandon it, I just find it useless to discuss anything on Vinca culture spread in connection to E-V13. LeoJ should rather focus on testing more Romanians who are really poorly tested, I guess himself too. In any case proto-Romanians and proto-Albanians have some limited but existent connection looking at the current results.

----------


## LeoJ

> Just ignore him, notice how he is mimicking some of the posts of Angela, especially the enough is enough part to gain her attention and mental support.


No shit, really ? Grow up man, prove yourself not a bla-bla monkey and pay attention on a non-partial scientific attitude, without the nationalistic crap, which obviously you're totally lacking. And nothing is more pathetic than the 'autorefreshing' mental 'duplex' ping-pong with you're supporters, like ArchtypeOne; just show you silly.

----------


## LeoJ

> I didn't abandon it, I just find it useless to discuss anything on Vinca culture spread in connection to E-V13. LeoJ should rather focus on testing more Romanians who are really poorly tested, I guess himself too. In any case proto-Romanians and proto-Albanians have some limited but existent connection looking at the current results.


Glad to see you don't mind. Guess I have the right to have personal opinions. And Vinca is one of this. I can't do anything toward a better testing, you know. It's really hard to convince peoples with a minimum wage of 400 Euro's to take a 100Euro test, to discover something you can't toast on bread.

----------


## LeoJ

> I didn't abandon it, I just find it useless to discuss anything on Vinca culture spread in connection to E-V13. LeoJ should rather focus on testing more Romanians who are really poorly tested, I guess himself too. In any case proto-Romanians and proto-Albanians have some limited but existent connection looking at the current results.


So, it very seems I was right about Vinca connection. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...iginate/page18

----------


## noUseForAname

> So, it very seems I was right about Vinca connection. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...iginate/page18


Can you detail again what you were right about Vinca connection?

----------


## Hawk

> Can you detail again what you were right about Vinca connection?


We already have like 10 or 14 samples from Vinca (they are all G2a in majority with some H2 here and there) and none of them is E-V13 or E-L618, most of E-L618 are heavily related to maritime farmers, the Cardium Pottery farmers, even the Sopot/Lengyel E-L618 were just migrants from Dalmatia probably.

----------


## LeoJ

> We already have like 10 or 14 samples from Vinca (they are all G2a in majority with some H2 here and there) and none of them is E-V13 or E-L618, most of E-L618 are heavily related to maritime farmers, the Cardium Pottery farmers, even the Sopot/Lengyel E-L618 were just migrants from Dalmatia probably.


Did you know most, if not all, culture-related sites, as Vinca-Turdas is, have MULTIPLE horizons ? Is it so hard to understand that for god sake, people ?

----------


## ancientDNAhunter

I am trying to research this amongst some other topics. One thought that had occurred to me, related to this thread: If I recall correctly the Pelasgians were described as being 'darker skinned' and old or native inhabitants. As for skin color that might be what we think of as African, but then again the Greeks described Ethiopians as 'burnt-skinned' implying to me that 'dark skinned' would be different than that; maybe if you had or capable of a deep tan. When we associate the Anatolian farmers coming in bringing lighter skin/brown eyes and WHG, like that individual found in Spain with dark skin and blue eyes, with Dark skin I would say that the WHG haplogroups _might_ be more associated with the Pelasgians than would be the Farmers. However it could be way more complex than that. A mix of WHG and Famers living in Aegean and Mediterranean could also compose them and their haplogroups could be then more varied. We definitely would need ancient DNA and archaeological context to be sure. Very interesting topic.

----------


## Hawk

> What about this fun with Vinca-Turdas and Starcevo-Cris that were full of E's !? lol! Maybe it was some E lost in the woods that collapsed into a deep ravine ?! Didn't anyone find him ?! Let's see: I1896 G2a2b2a1a-PF3346; I1889 G2a2a1a2a-PF3237; I0634 G2a2a1a3a-FGC34624; I1131 G2a2a1a3-FGC34625; I1887 H2; I1880 G2a2b2b1a-F872 / PF3355; I1877 G2a2b2b-PF3359; VC3-2 G2a2a1a3-FGC34625; I1876 G2a2a1-PF3148; I2532 G2a2b2b; So no one found him! ...


Because E-V13 is a Neolithic Farmer lineage for sure, but not from Balkans. In Balkans, specifically Epirus/Albania there might be some E-L618 but no E-V13. Bulgarian leaks from Stamov had Bulgarian Late Neolithic samples full of G2a and then right away in Chalcolithic R1b-Z2103 shows up and dominates throughout whole Bronze Age Balkans from Adriatic to Black Sea.

Lone Y-DNA are not indicators of anything, it's people who stay in group, and so far that French Neolithic paper indicated that Michelsberger from Switzerland/France border had E-M78 group, E-V13 earliest split is from in and around Central Europe, following the Danube river initially they landed in South Carpathians in Middle Bronze Age, and then from within the range of Middle Bronze Age and Late Bronze Age they flooded Balkans, but mostly Late Bronze Age, and yet another group spread in Early Iron Age, E-V13 Z5017 => CTS9320.

So, apparently, i also have seen it myself in a paper that the heavy E-V13 Kapitan Andreevo belonged to Psenicevo-Babadag Culture who in turn were related to Mediana and Gava-Holigrady Culture.

Despite all of this, it's funny because Marija Gimbutas said Pelasgians were just a relic of all this related Babadag Culture during Late Bronze Age upheaval and ancient Greek authors were totally confused. They were not native in Greece, so it might hold water that E-V13 spread with Pelasgians in Greece but they were not Pre-Greek people. Who knows. Time will tell.

----------


## kingjohn

I will be very surprised if there would be no 
E-v13 among the 82 remains from future etruscan paper ( 800 bc -1000Ad) :Smile: 
since this paper should include also some south italian samples and the ancient greeks were there big time :Thinking:

----------


## Angela

General Question:

Are people ever going to stop using the outmoded and completely a-scientific word "Pelasgian"???

The people living in Greece before the arrival of the Greek speakers were EEF with some CHG/Iran Neo depending on the time period.

----------


## bigsnake49

> General Question:
> 
> Are people ever going to stop using the outmoded and completely a-scientific word "Pelasgian"???
> 
> The people living in Greece before the arrival of the Greek speakers were EEF with some CHG/Iran Neo depending on the time period.


There is nothing wrong with using the label Pelasgian for EEF/CHG/Iran Neo natives.

----------


## Riverman

> There is nothing wrong with using the label Pelasgian for EEF/CHG/Iran Neo natives.


Also, what's the handy alternative?

----------


## bigsnake49

> Also, what's the handy alternative?


Bronze Age Aegeans? Bronze Age Balkanites?

----------


## Riverman

> Bronze Age Aegeans? Bronze Age Balkanites?



Well, not as handy and not as specific I'd say. But I don't really care, people should just use an established term which everybody can instantly recognise.

----------


## torzio

The term Pelasgians has always been confusing ....................Did the Iliad mention them ( Pelasgians ) as south of the Troad ????

the Phygians as their eastern neighbour

----------


## MOESAN

Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.

----------


## Riverman

> Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.


I think the debate is not open insofar, as for sure at least in some regions of Greece had to be pre-Greek IE. I'd say especially those related to Proto-Anatolians and Cernavoda were just too close. Greeks were a later wave, which however managed to march deeper into what is now Greece and hopping on the islands, so making a maritime transitions those before seem to have not made, probably also by fusing with local seafarers.

----------


## Jovialis

Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

Distance to:
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave

19.69157688
Sicilian

19.92414866
S_Italian_Sicilian

20.74236968
Morocco_Jews

20.91704807
Sephardic_Jews

21.39073631
C_Italian

22.39960937
Tuscan

23.18561407
TSI30

23.34342948
Ashkenazi

24.17234370
Ashkenazy_Jews

26.77793308
Greek

27.14932228
O_Italian

27.42703411
North_Italian

28.85941268
Cypriots

29.30942340
N_Italian

31.11091288
Sardinian

33.28397062
Andalucia

33.76083085
Baleares

34.07852256
Murcia

34.16161150
Canarias

36.14009546
Galicia

36.22881588
Extremadura

36.88398568
Portuguese

36.96227401
Lebanese

37.08341543
Castilla_Y_Leon

37.39192025
Spaniards

----------


## Jovialis

> Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".
> 
> Distance to:
> I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
> 
> 19.69157688
> Sicilian
> 
> 19.92414866
> ...


Also, this sample is a female, and the mtDNA is K1a26.

----------


## Hawk

> Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".
> 
> Distance to:
> I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
> 
> 19.69157688
> Sicilian
> 
> 19.92414866
> ...


Neolithic is too early to label Pelasgians, we don't know if Pelasgians were Early Neolithic people or CHG or a mix of both of them, and a chunk of Steppe here and there. Patrilinearly i have four scenarios in mind:

1. G2a.
2. J2a
3. A mix of G2a and J2a
4. E-V13 incomers from Danube, Peleset/Philistines/Pelasgians according to Marija Gimbutas were late-comers to Greece from Danube basin during the Late Bronze Age turmoil, and ancient Greek authors were confused and wrong on their assumptions, but still they can be labelled as Early Neolithic descended people, but incoming from further North, Danube basin.

----------


## Jovialis

At any rate, here are other Neolithic Greek samples from Matheison et al. 2018, in Dodecad K12b format:



```
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
```

----------


## Jovialis

Distance to:
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

12.55067329
Sephardic_Jews

13.93445370
Morocco_Jews

14.20389031
Sicilian

14.53853500
S_Italian_Sicilian

15.98064454
Ashkenazi

16.73781646
Ashkenazy_Jews

18.70733546
Cypriots

20.21094011
C_Italian

22.11675835
Greek

23.13261334
Tuscan

24.47959558
TSI30

26.42099922
O_Italian

27.40526774
Druze

27.74727014
Lebanese

29.01828734
Turkish

30.07047223
Syrians

30.26174152
Jordanians

30.65401931
Palestinian

31.05522661
North_Italian

31.47099140
Samaritians

31.86389179
Turks

31.88552963
N_Italian

33.72596922
Iraq_Jews

33.97342785
Armenian

34.05508773
Assyrian



Distance to:
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

17.70140955
Sicilian

17.70880572
Sephardic_Jews

17.93321499
S_Italian_Sicilian

18.70059357
Morocco_Jews

20.46705157
Ashkenazi

21.15268068
Ashkenazy_Jews

21.61280870
C_Italian

23.52872712
Tuscan

23.57725175
Cypriots

24.75990711
TSI30

24.97495145
Greek

27.84140083
O_Italian

30.40738233
North_Italian

31.80412866
N_Italian

32.45537398
Druze

33.08038996
Lebanese

33.31648541
Turkish

35.09498967
Syrians

35.47444432
Jordanians

35.85461895
Palestinian

36.25245923
Turks

36.62070862
Samaritians

36.82807896
Sardinian

37.90385469
Baleares

37.97744331
Andalucia



Distance to:
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

19.40351772
Morocco_Jews

19.73851058
Sicilian

19.98423128
S_Italian_Sicilian

20.21531845
Sephardic_Jews

21.74873330
C_Italian

23.02683869
Tuscan

23.13563269
Ashkenazi

23.61503546
TSI30

24.18195195
Ashkenazy_Jews

27.24194376
Greek

27.43963374
O_Italian

27.69148244
North_Italian

28.97424201
Cypriots

29.53746604
N_Italian

31.36124838
Sardinian

33.14803916
Andalucia

33.55961114
Canarias

33.57203449
Murcia

33.61046712
Baleares

35.71862119
Galicia

35.85028452
Extremadura

36.11957226
Lebanese

36.34769319
Portuguese

36.70677730
Castilla_Y_Leon

36.99598357
Druze



Distance to:
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

19.33047594
Sicilian

19.57458556
S_Italian_Sicilian

20.08565657
Sephardic_Jews

20.40588641
Morocco_Jews

21.83529940
C_Italian

22.65419167
Ashkenazi

23.17877477
Tuscan

23.44600819
Ashkenazy_Jews

24.13538067
TSI30

26.48128396
Greek

27.12975488
Cypriots

27.90359117
O_Italian

28.89308049
North_Italian

30.64388683
N_Italian

33.00872006
Sardinian

35.37902486
Andalucia

35.67226374
Baleares

35.87326442
Druze

36.00503298
Lebanese

36.14460402
Canarias

36.16399314
Murcia

36.34873313
Turkish

37.78350566
Syrians

38.09672952
Galicia

38.14858320
Jordanians



Distance to:
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

22.99721722
Sicilian

23.15988990
S_Italian_Sicilian

23.32663285
C_Italian

23.64329715
Tuscan

23.76852330
Morocco_Jews

24.01698774
TSI30

24.54388111
Sephardic_Jews

26.72652428
Sardinian

26.85388612
North_Italian

26.87959263
Ashkenazi

27.84898562
Ashkenazy_Jews

28.59936887
O_Italian

29.16756589
N_Italian

29.73029600
Greek

30.99162306
Andalucia

31.81028922
Murcia

31.94871672
Baleares

32.51302047
Canarias

33.24054903
Cypriots

34.28784478
Galicia

34.40721872
Extremadura

34.91192490
Castilla_Y_Leon

35.07662184
Portuguese

35.11704002
Spaniards

35.28731358
Castilla_La_Mancha

----------


## Jovialis

Here are all of them, plus an aggregate of all 6 samples:



```
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95

Greece_N_(n=6),0.075,0.018333333,3.27,0.271666667,43.2,0.211666667,0,0.013333333,14.15166667,0,37.99833333,0.788333333
```

Distance to:
Greece_N_(n=6)

18.40171241
Sicilian

18.64401922
S_Italian_Sicilian

18.97314030
Sephardic_Jews

19.01187312
Morocco_Jews

21.07059609
C_Italian

21.70606949
Ashkenazi

22.55991695
Tuscan

22.57831599
Ashkenazy_Jews

23.46493809
TSI30

25.80042221
Greek

26.63307066
Cypriots

27.06937912
O_Italian

28.28656665
North_Italian

29.96172535
N_Italian

33.34028923
Sardinian

34.80904556
Andalucia

34.91952347
Lebanese

35.02669153
Baleares

35.16409371
Druze

35.31738174
Canarias

35.41767147
Murcia

35.80509442
Turkish

36.56695712
Syrians

36.88730296
Jordanians

37.23570266
Palestinian

----------


## Jovialis

Distance to:
Jovialis

24.90830958
Greece_N_(n=6)




Significantly distant, but _relatively_ close.

----------


## Cpluskx

E-V13 is likely Indo-European. Pre IE Greek populations were largely EEF's with mostly J and G Y-Dna's. 

Minoans, otoh, have large amounts of CHG, imo as a result of direct migration from Maykop-Kura Araxes areas, who brought the language and started the Greek civilisation by mixing with the local EEF's

----------


## bigsnake49

@Jovialis, are those modern populations you compared the neolithic inhabitants of Greece to? I was thinking it would make more sense to compare them to other neolithic populations or Bronze Age populations.

----------


## Jovialis

Here they are compared to the Eupedia checker. Looks like Maciamo already compiled some of them together, I am guessing from the early part of the Neolithic.

They are close to Minoans, which makes perfect sense, considering that they too are Anatolian_N + CHG:

Distance to:
Greece_N_(n=6)

0.50181615
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

4.60799155
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

5.99914600
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

6.06872195
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

10.11111861
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

11.78200263
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

12.09561020
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

12.92535052
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

12.94833655
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

13.97715825
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

14.95983688
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

15.26975287
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

15.59472943
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

15.60007113
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

17.14309539
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

17.75523170
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

17.88362434
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

17.89231733
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

18.45974411
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

18.95663084
Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)

20.06943828
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

20.26378591
Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)

20.63983090
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

22.00639421
Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)

22.59681510
Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

----------


## Jovialis

Here are the three Early Neolithic samples from Greece, vs other ancient samples. Again, Minoans are number one:

Distance to:
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

4.67690068
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

5.99230340
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

6.13463935
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

10.22518459
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

11.86980623
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

12.11156472
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

12.94813500
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

13.05937977
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

14.06299755
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

15.02037949
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

15.34077899
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

15.57916557
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

15.67691615
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

17.18863869
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

17.76622357
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

17.90113404
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

17.93495749
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

18.43027943
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

19.06663316
Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)

20.11910038
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

20.35612930
Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)

20.76235295
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

22.12733152
Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)

22.74940659
Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

23.31082367
Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

----------


## Jovialis

This is annoying, ALL of them are female. However, there are 3 more, one from the "Final Neolithic", that I believe were in the Clemente et. al 2021 paper, one of which is G2a2a1a2.


From the supplement of Mathieson et al. 2018:

----------


## Hawk

It's totally amazing and surprising how E-V13 is missing in Neolithic Greece/Bulgaria, Serbia (Vinca samples were again mostly G2a and some H).

We were so misslead by modern percentages.

----------


## Palermo Trapani

> Also, what's the handy alternative?


Good question, for me, and this is perhaps due to my old school Dominican Nuns teaching, every time I see Palasgian, I think of Pelagius(Pelagianism)!! a dualistic philosophy that was rampant in parts of the Western_Latin Church in 4th Century which Saint Augustine got into heated debates with. Obviously, the words are not related but they are to my eye sometimes similar. Thus I have to do a double take sometimes. :Laughing:

----------


## Palermo Trapani

Jovialis: My distances using coordinates from your post #589 (thanks for the work).

Distance to:
PalermoTrapani_Combined

18.26657603
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

20.82958279
Greece_N_(n=6)

21.18285155
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

21.29334403
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

21.68626985
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

21.98648221
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

24.02083471
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

----------


## Jovialis

Here are the Northern Greece Neolithic samples, from Hofmanova et al. 2016 (they were not from Clemente et al. 2021):



```
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35

Northern_Greece_N_(n=3),0,0,3.75,0.06,47.3,0,0,0,13.13333333,0.266666667,33.97,1.516666667
```

----------


## Jovialis

Distance to:
Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)

21.69984485
Sicilian

21.99407875
S_Italian_Sicilian

22.29113501
Morocco_Jews

22.33997016
C_Italian

22.92029741
Tuscan

23.20305943
Sephardic_Jews

23.34354086
TSI30

25.59428647
Ashkenazi

26.51733772
North_Italian

26.54116174
Ashkenazy_Jews

27.73326703
Sardinian

27.74656195
O_Italian

28.69622914
N_Italian

28.71904420
Greek

30.86826472
Andalucia

31.66319893
Murcia

31.78298549
Baleares

31.89701397
Canarias

32.15359855
Cypriots

34.08165831
Galicia

34.12505873
Extremadura

34.72958969
Portuguese

34.75710239
Castilla_Y_Leon

35.13000854
Spaniards

35.37613367
Castilla_La_Mancha



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5

22.66463545
Sicilian

22.83912214
C_Italian

23.04417497
S_Italian_Sicilian

23.24397126
Tuscan

23.26946067
Morocco_Jews

23.52799184
TSI30

24.40618774
Sephardic_Jews

26.23530446
Sardinian

26.24034108
North_Italian

26.69441889
Ashkenazi

27.63428487
Ashkenazy_Jews

28.12002134
O_Italian

28.53540958
N_Italian

29.60986322
Greek

29.83672569
Andalucia

30.74761779
Murcia

30.87141072
Canarias

31.00974041
Baleares

33.29513778
Extremadura

33.32057022
Galicia

33.65634561
Cypriots

33.81588384
Castilla_Y_Leon

33.88759803
Portuguese

34.23658862
Spaniards

34.41354385
Castilla_La_Mancha



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7

21.93589296
Sicilian

22.27435521
S_Italian_Sicilian

22.28050493
Morocco_Jews

22.39067663
C_Italian

22.93471386
Tuscan

23.26163580
TSI30

23.45906861
Sephardic_Jews

25.86319586
Ashkenazi

26.20212968
North_Italian

26.84133752
Ashkenazy_Jews

27.19634718
Sardinian

27.69195732
O_Italian

28.40731068
N_Italian

29.01122024
Greek

30.13253557
Andalucia

30.87910135
Murcia

31.01443051
Canarias

31.15591276
Baleares

32.79331792
Cypriots

33.38521978
Galicia

33.39659414
Extremadura

33.95610696
Portuguese

34.00768884
Castilla_Y_Leon

34.46460358
Spaniards

34.64518581
Castilla_La_Mancha



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10

20.78053175
Sicilian

20.93053750
S_Italian_Sicilian

21.60660084
Morocco_Jews

21.98194259
Sephardic_Jews

22.09761752
C_Italian

22.88638460
Tuscan

23.54022940
TSI30

24.44903679
Ashkenazi

25.36214699
Ashkenazy_Jews

27.35781972
North_Italian

27.67823694
O_Italian

27.74897115
Greek

29.38070115
N_Italian

29.89179821
Sardinian

30.12408007
Cypriots

32.77802923
Andalucia

33.35010345
Baleares

33.50804978
Murcia

33.93183461
Canarias

35.69166289
Galicia

35.82889895
Extremadura

36.48419521
Portuguese

36.58116182
Castilla_Y_Leon

36.83000679
Spaniards

37.20055645
Castilla_La_Mancha

----------


## Jovialis

Northern Greece Neo vs Southern Greece Neo:

Distance to:
Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)

2.40816666
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

4.14914449
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

4.27987539
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

5.91626548
Greece_N_(n=6)

6.34545244
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

9.85760451
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

13.94642009
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5

3.24115720
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

5.71577641
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

5.84238821
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

7.53665837
Greece_N_(n=6)

7.76703290
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

11.34981938
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

15.41466834
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7

2.93986394
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

4.77472512
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

5.17961389
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

6.82313120
Greece_N_(n=6)

7.35911000
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

10.80519782
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

14.60860363
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10

2.48947786
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

3.47423373
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

3.50709281
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

3.96232921
Greece_N_(n=6)

4.51229432
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

7.74572140
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

12.10513940
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

----------


## Jovialis

Northern Greece Neo vs Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

Distance to:
Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)

3.95073411
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

5.87383464
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

6.60681466
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

7.69388502
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

7.89405050
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

9.64642594
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

9.95511929
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

9.99717460
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

10.32730362
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

10.59903612
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

11.70766416
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

11.85611375
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

12.21947216
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

12.24321717
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

12.31004197
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

12.57137887
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

12.74551686
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

12.89895086
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

15.05533571
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

16.16743847
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

17.64493223
Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

24.24392501
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

24.43917006
Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)

24.44766042
Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)

24.58542048
Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5

4.41680880
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

5.75074778
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

6.43449299
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

7.43336398
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

7.58139829
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

8.54582354
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

8.79639131
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

9.37636390
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

10.27857967
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

10.73735535
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

10.96766156
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

11.17087732
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

11.35762739
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

11.48457226
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

11.64948926
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

11.82524841
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

13.32510037
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

13.81449601
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

13.97261965
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

16.11385118
Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

17.19699683
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

23.67081748
Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)

24.07053593
Chalcolithic_BB_Sardinia_(n=10)

24.68076174
Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)

25.14148166
Middle_Neolithic_France_(n=19)



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7

4.38094739
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

6.02466597
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

6.75148872
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

7.07077082
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

7.32978172
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

9.03027131
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

9.33324167
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

9.51317507
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

9.91312766
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

11.20897854
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

11.23360583
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

11.51353551
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

11.74794876
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

11.79231105
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

11.85183108
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

12.10430502
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

12.42936040
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

13.30579573
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

14.33478985
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

16.53946795
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

16.94128389
Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

23.87404658
Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)

24.49707534
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

24.65291463
Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)

24.65876112
Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)



Distance to:
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10

4.08877732
Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)

4.70890645
Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)

8.27838752
Minoan_Greece_(n=10)

8.69667178
EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)

9.47600127
Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)

9.65456887
Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)

10.01193787
LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)

11.58827425
LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)

11.63888311
Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)

12.05462982
Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)

12.13050700
MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)

12.29725579
Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)

13.72120257
Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)

13.93798407
Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)

14.31132768
Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)

14.52197645
Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)

14.69037780
EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)

15.02945441
Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

15.13001322
EMBA_Greece_(n=6)

17.12655540
Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)

20.03540366
Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

22.32361082
Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)

23.16591462
Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

23.62168707
Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)

24.06207389
Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

----------


## Jovialis

Distance to:
Jovialis

22.35913236
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

24.90830958
Greece_N_(n=6)

25.00568335
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709

25.59083625
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937

25.64280601
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708

25.84473641
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318

26.40096589
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10

26.82268132
Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)

26.85622274
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7

27.46180620
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5

27.93191902
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

----------


## Jovialis



----------


## Jovialis

I'll be interested to see Neolithic samples from Southern Italy, particularly Puglia. Not only because my family comes from there, but also because Puglia was one of two port of entry for Neolithic peoples into Italy. The other being Eastern Sicily. I would wager that like these Peloponnese Neolithic samples, they have CHG + Anatolian_N. I'd bet they even cluster together.

----------


## bigsnake49

@Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans. 

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.

----------


## Jovialis

> @Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans. 
> 
> I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.


Yeah, unfortunately for that question, all of the samples are female, except for one in the final Neolithic, which is a G2a male.

----------


## Aspurg

> I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.


 E-V13/E-L618 in Neolithic was likely confined to Dalmatian coast until the EBA. And the only Neolithic E-L618 find comes from there. E-V13 is obviously Cardial related (with E-V13 Spanish Cardial find) and Dalmatian coast was their main hub. 

E-V13 itself started to expand in EBA with the Cetina culture. There aren't finds from there, but this is extremely likely based on V13 diversity and the strong Neolithic Cardial element that played part in its formation. 

Great many Greek V13 are either Iron Age incomers or Medieval Vlach and Arvanite incomers.

----------


## LeoJ

I don't think that pelasgians were ancient greeks in this manner. I think pelasgians were the very latest neolithic nonIE population of Balkans.

----------


## Hawk

Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.

Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.

The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.

We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.

----------


## Riverman

> Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.
> 
> Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.
> 
> The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.
> 
> We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.


Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
https://amp.en.google-info.in/219549...-language.html

They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.

----------


## torzio

> Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
> https://amp.en.google-info.in/219549...-language.html
> 
> They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.


As per the map on the linked site...the Paeonians closest neighbours by ethnicity would be the Dardanians first, then the Macedonians ............they might have been as you state a Daco-thracian group , but IMO, they are entirely separate group along with Dardanians and Macedonians
The Paeonians always seemed to be under the Macedonian yoke

----------


## ihype02

*Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?*




No.

----------


## Angela

You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.

----------


## ihype02

Pelasgians did not exist.

----------


## Hawk

> You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.
> 
> I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.


What if we know it?  :Wink:

----------


## bigsnake49

> You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.
> 
> I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.


Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Pelasgians did not exist.


What do you want to call the pre-Greeks?

----------


## Riverman

> Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.


We can use the classical pre-post reasoning though. What was there before, what came in, what was different afterwards. This might not even always be about one haplogroup coming from outside replacing the locals, it can also mean one group from the larger framework expanding at the expense of the others. 
In this case the cremation horizon East of a certain line is very likely to mean increased frequency for E-V13. This is therefore true for a lot of people North of the Greeks and some of these Daco-Thracian related elements marched into Greece too. Now the question is what is meant if talking about "Pelasgians". If its the Pre-Greek people of the region, than they're not the same as those bringing cremation, because those which brought cremation were Urnfielders from the Carpathians and Danube, not the pre-Greek inhabitants of the Aegean Sea. Therefore, people have to make that decision first: What and whom do they mean if talking about "Pelasgians". 
If there is no proper definition, we can't even start to associate them with a specific archaeological and other ethnic groups, which is difficult enough. The Pre-Greeks seem to have been largely Copper Age inhabitants still, very Neolithic, in some regions probably influenced by Proto-Anatolian related groups (Cernavoda?), but that's speculative already.

----------


## Dorian9

IMO Pelasgians must have existed as much as Achaeans ,Dardanians ,Dorians ,Carians ,Illyrians etc did ,the common theme behind the myths of all those is that peoples and territories end up being named by one common forefather/king (sounds like an "IE" thing If you ask me) ,the confusion could lie in the fact that Pelasgian came to mean the autochthonous/old inhabitant aka the pre-IE substrate or that it described the sum of all the peoples in territories that an early IE group expanded/ruled at ,this group assimilated the first and ended up identifying with them (after all we know Mycenaean civilization as an example was the continuation of local Aegean one and they had mostly local DNA so it sounds like a reasonable expectation..to me at least) ,the result is that both them and those who could have retained their pre-IE speech(the "barbarian Pelasgians" per Herodotus maybe?)came to be grouped under the same name.If this were to be true maybe "Pelasgic" would be a better term or simply draw a line between "IE" and non IE-speaking "Pelasgians".

----------


## bigsnake49

Do we have any archeological evidence of IE pelasgian and non-IE Pelasgians. Greeks were mid to late Bronze Age migrants so what does the archaeological evidence say about the natives before them? The Minoan and the Cycladic civilizations were advanced Bronze Age civilizations and were not neolithic, so I don't know where the neolithic adjective came from.

----------


## noUseForAname

Very interesting posts guys, everyone is welcome to share their point or theories and any other data...

We still need more data for sure, old data I mean since the modern ones I believe would only confuse us even more...

Angela mentioned that Pelasgian as a word might mean just a region and not individuals, but that might not be the case, we dont have old samples yet especially those of males, but we do have historical mentioning that they where people indeed, maybe that might be right, as with Illyria since it was quite a big region and many tribes or ethnicities might have lived in the Illyrian regions, Pelasgians might be a bit different since the history mentioned that they were low in numbers and the region was not as vast as Illyria

So definitely no data yet here so we can't conclude anything, only historical, that might be as well very subjective, but I would still believe history than theories with no data, or at least significant data

Angela is you have more data as of why you think Pelasgia was only a region, please share...


Note: When I mentioned "Would the Pelasgian DNA be E-V13", of course I mean their highest in % since we know everyone is mixed lol, I am just speculating of course but am not believing at all that Pelasgians were very related with Minoans or Mycenenian, I still believe Pelasgians were very barbaric, on around middle Neolithic, very low in numbers who lived mostly in mountains as barbars, as it notes they were the very first man from Africa, (that is why I link it with E-V13) it might be true but of course we need data, so Minoan/Mycenenian civilization had nothing to do with them I believe..

----------


## Hawk

> Very interesting posts guys, everyone is welcome to share their point or theories and any other data...
> 
> We still need more data for sure, old data I mean since the modern ones I believe would only confuse us even more...
> 
> Angela mentioned that Pelasgian as a word might mean just a region and not individuals, but that might not be the case, we dont have old samples yet especially those of males, but we do have historical mentioning that they where people indeed, maybe that might be right, as with Illyria since it was quite a big region and many tribes or ethnicities might have lived in the Illyrian regions, Pelasgians might be a bit different since the history mentioned that they were low in numbers and the region was not as vast as Illyria
> 
> So definitely no data yet here so we can't conclude anything, only historical, that might be as well very subjective, but I would still believe history than theories with no data, or at least significant data
> 
> Angela is you have more data as of why you think Pelasgia was only a region, please share...
> ...


You do realize that from where E-V13 ancestor came, E-L618, or it's ancestral subclade E-Z1919, from somewhere from Mesolithic Egypt was far more advanced than any Mesolithic European Culture or West-Asian or Steppe.

But, that's beyond the scope, because i highly doubt thousands of years or survival, hardships, transformations in Europe they knew anything remotely about Nile Valley being their couple of thousand of years ancestral homeland. It's beyond human perception. How we know is thanks to mathematical and scientific models. Abstract things.

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## EV13SON

Well by around 1300 BC Robin Spencers SNP tracker places my line in Poland...Troy was said to have fallen in 1200 BC so they were definitely in the area at the time of the Pelasgians  :Laughing:  Boy ppl really do hate on us EV13 eh lol! I want my Reparations! lol jk jk

You know I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say my people taught the brutish Yamanya how to read and write...

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