# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Did you know that Kurds(Kurdish PeoPle) are Europeans?

## KurdishAryan

hi guys.. here i want to tell you some informations about Kurds..

here:

*Kurds* are a nation/PeoPle of " unofficial "Kurdia/Kurdistan state and "official " PeoPle of Kurdia/Kurdistan settlement area .

*Language:* Kurdish ,is an indoeuroPean language.
more info of kurdish language here : 

http://www.institutkurde.org/en/language/
http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41
*
Population 2011 :* about 50.000.000

*and Religion of Kurds:* Christianity, Judaism,Islam,Yezidi,Alevi. and a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans..
*
Flag of Kurdistan: 

* 
*Kurdia/Kurdistan ´s "unofficial" map ,"official " settlement area . :*



*now official Kurdia/Kurdistan autonomous republic in Southkurdistan :*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

--------------------------------------…
*Kurdish PeoPle :* Studies show that Kurds have a stronger european genetic make-up then Greeks,Southern italians and Spanish people.

*Y-DNA Haplogroups in North Kurdistan :*
I -25%
R1a -19.5%
R1b -8%
G -12.5%
J2 - 7%
J1 -0%
E -2.5%
T- 6.5%

*Here see , scroll completedown... :*

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
--------------------------------------…
*and see here ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES including kurdish PeoPle :*

http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
*
...and kurdia/kurdistan @ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES :* 
http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...minorities=337

------------

*and see here kurdish aryan European race .. kurdish PeoPle (video) . :* 

1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM

2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hHMwCE3ECU

3- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL
*
Kurdia/Kurdistan and EUROPE :* 
CLICK!
http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg


-----




> See dna tests kurds have not asian dna tests but dna s like greek/italian/sPanish people ,thats fact . im north kurd so kurd from northkurdistan ("turkish kurdistan" ) and see dna tests here:
> 
> See (turkish kurdistan)
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
> 
> and why you think why these europeans placed kurdistan to europe ? if kurds would be not europeans then they would not put kurdistan to europe map and to european MINORITIES see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
> why these european website have not put iraq or iran to europe ? .. because they are not european, this is true europe if yo ucan accept or not , so now forget religions in this are.. thsi is true europe : 
> 
> http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg


_so ..now my question.. did you know all that.. ? :)_

_greets


_

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## Knovas

Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.

By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.

Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.

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## iapetoc

Interesting hmmm 

but isn't that map also the Ak koyonlu areas?

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## KurdishAryan

> Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.
> 
> By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.
> 
> Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.


 no its clear ..all tests shows it.. kurds are european people like spaniish/greek/italian people ,apparently more european than these .. so we cant forget that a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans , persian and arab people.

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## KurdishAryan

> Interesting hmmm 
> 
> but isn't that map also the Ak koyonlu areas


 ak koyunlu ?

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## sparkey

I think it's apparent that Kurds have a strong European component to their genetic makeup, and are quite distinctive in their region, see Dodecad. But it's also apparent that they aren't purely European, in any sense... their autosomal clustering (often close-ish to Iranians) and their haplogroup makeup (including so much T, G, J2... and so little R1b) indicate a significant Near Eastern component as well.




> *and Religion of Kurds:* Christianity, Judaism,Islam,Yezidi,Alevi. and a lot of kurds were assimilated by turkish ottomans..


Why list Islam third? It's obvious that Kurds are very dominantly Muslim.




> *Kurdia/Kurdistan ´s "unofficial" map ,"official " settlement area . :*
> 
> 
> 
> *now official Kurdia/Kurdistan autonomous republic in Northkurdistan :*
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan


The peoples in a lot of regions covered by that map will object to being part of Kurdistan. That's more like a map of "places where any significant amount of Kurds live."




> *Kurdish PeoPle :* Studies show that Kurds have a stronger european genetic make-up then Greeks,Southern italians and Spanish people.


Cite sources? It seems that the definition of "European" could be wrong if a people living in Asia are deemed more European than Europeans!




> *Y-DNA Haplogroups in North Kurdistan :*
> I -25%
> R1a -19.5%
> R1b -8%
> G -12.5%
> J2 - 7%
> J1 -0%
> E -2.5%
> T- 6.5%


Not to dispute, but to clarify: The Haplogroup I among Kurdish people is interesting, in that it tends to be not of the type that we find among Armenians (I2*-B) but of the younger type that we find among Slavs (I2a-Din), indicating that Kurds are not only of largely European stock, but that the transmission occurred recently.




> *and see here ALL EUROPEAN MINORITIES including kurdish PeoPle :*
> 
> http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp


I think they include Kurds because they are an important minority in Turkey, part of which is in Europe, not because they are making a statement about how "European" Kurds are. I mean, they also include Arabs, apparently because there are Arabs in Turkey, as well.



> *and see here kurdish aryan European race .. kurdish PeoPle (video) . :* 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hHMwCE3ECU


I didn't watch the videos... but I will say that "Aryans" include Persians and Hindi speakers... not very European, is it? It's more Eurasian.



> *Kurdia/Kurdistan and EUROPE :*


On the map it's in ASIA.  :Laughing:  Not that I don't think that Kurds should be able to get greater autonomy and independence for their region, if they so desire. There are plenty of countries (in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere) that should exist, but don't... Kurdistan is a possibility.

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## Knovas

I'm afraid you are wrong. Dodecad (Dienekes') shows a completely different story.

First of all, a population portrait of the Kurds to make it easy, based on the latest analysis: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png

And second, the averages of populations, where you can compare and see that Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc., have a lot more European genes than the Kurds: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0

If you just look at the Greek average, only the Mediterranean component goes at 46%, much more European than any Kurd, and if you look Spaniards the difference is higher.

Kurds are Caucasoids, but not the same as Europeans just because some of them look like with light traits. Haplogroups only tell information about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago, the complete information is only posible to get in Autosomal analysis, and it's clear that Kurds have very significant Middle Eastern imput, and little from other non European places too. European component is less than 40% in Kurds. Also Haplogroup T, as I said, is easy to be asociated with Africa, Middle East and probably India.

Thats what science says. Some of them really have European look, but does not necesarly mean they are the same. Of course Caucasoid populations (Europeans, Western Asians and North Africans) are related, but it's good to tell things exactly as they are.

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## iapetoc

> ak koyunlu ?


sory 
Aq qoyunlu 
kara koyonlu
the turkmen and azeris,
also the armenia, 
so kurds Armenians azeris-turkmen share the same area, also some already state populations like turks syrians

I know that kurds have *IE* language an old Iranian which *fits in their location* today,

I wonder what makes you believe that Kurds are more Europeans from Greeks or south Italians or some others
according what basis you make that claim?

I mean you believe kurds moved from Europe to that area?
what makes you to coonect them with europe? what you observed?

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## Mzungu mchagga

And yet another battle about which is the most or least European population...  :Useless: 

Guys, don't you get tired of this?

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## Knovas

Could be a problem of knowledge, not necesarily a battle. I personally find Kurds and other Asian Caucasoids very interesting. It's incredible how similar to Europeans they usually look.

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## iapetoc

> Could be a problem of knowledge, not necesarily a battle. I personally find Kurds and other Asian Caucasoids very interesting. It's incredible how similar to Europeans they usually look.


correct
in fact if you watch some levantines, Georgians Greeks Italians Kurds you see many common like nose.




> And yet another battle about which is the most or least European population... 
> 
> Guys, don't you get tired of this?


it is not a battle, it is statement, simply to accept it someone must learn on what it is based.

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## Knovas

Some Kurds really resemble Georgians, it's easy to explain due to their high West Asian component (Georgians have more or less 75%, while Kurds are made basically of this, but not at the same level). I think Jordanians would be quite close to them too, phisically and genetically speaking.

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## iapetoc

the interestin in Dodecad is the green the mediterennean connection.

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## Knovas

It's the largest European component they have. It's also interesting to note that the East European component is higher in Kurds than for example English or Spaniards. There is a Slavic influence so, wich is present in Greeks too at higher level.

An obvious connection is not deniable.

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## how yes no 2

> Not to dispute, but to clarify: The Haplogroup I among Kurdish people is interesting, in that it tends to be not of the type that we find among Armenians (I2*-B) but of the younger type that we find among Slavs (I2a-Din), indicating that Kurds are not only of largely European stock, but that the transmission occurred recently.


my proposal is that this I2a-Din can be related to conquest of sea peoples from north countries towards south... among sea peoples were Sherdana after whom Serbonian bog is named....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...76-sea-peoples

I think this I2a-Din went under names such as Sherdana, Scordisci, Cimmerians (Gomer)...

e.g. if we combine map of Gomer (there is consensus that Gomer = Cimmerians) from ancient Hebrew world (both the island in Cappadocia and areas north of Black sea) with map of archeological sites related to Thraco-Cimmerians we get I2a2 map...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians



http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ogroup-I2a-map


now, Gomer/Cimmerians settled in Cappadocia but in Strabo's time both of Cappadocian tribes are called white-Syrians




> The country of the Assyrians borders on Persis and Susiana. This name1 is given to Babylonia and to much of the country all round, which latter, in part, is also called Aturia, in which are Ninus, Apolloniatis, the Elymaei, the Paraetacae, the Chalonitis in the neighbourhood of Mt. Zagrus, the plains in the neighbourhood of Ninus, and also Dolomenê and Calachenê and Chazenê and Adiabenê, and the tribes of Mesopotamia in the neighbourhood of the Gordyaeans, and the Mygdonians in the neighbourhood of Nisibis, as far as the Zeugma2 of the Euphrates, as also much of the country on the far side of the Euphrates, which is occupied by Arabians, and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.
> 
> 2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, *both tribes of the Cappadocians*, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, *have to the present time been called "White Syrians*,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the *Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus*; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

clearly, if "Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus" this is clear indication that Syrians = Sumerians

in Cappadocia from Gomer (Cimmerians) we get white-Syrians, who are by interpreting strabo's note = Sumerians...

well, clearly Cimmerians is same tribal name as Sumerians, just written n languages with different phonetic rules......

but story of white-Syrians goes further.... e.g. if we look at this map of haplogroup I (that is based on prior research and should be updated with somewhat higher frequencies of haplogroup I in Kurdistan and lower in sampling point forTeheran area)



we can see that spread of haplogroup I in east Asia maps exactly to Serians/Serres and land of Serica..




> Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of *eastern Central Asia*, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a *wide arc from China to India*.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

now area in northwest china plus arc from China to India is perfectly clear in haplogroup I spread....

a part of this arc in fact matches Pasthun Sarbans perfectly (e.g. pay attention on place where both spread make turn of the arc from NW-SE to SW-NE)



modern Serbs (dominantly I2a-din), came to Balkan from land of Boika where they were called white => so we have "white Serbs" as well..

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

that Boika land that by description - north of Turkia (Turkia is named that was used for nowdays Hungary due to Avar and Hun states) and neighbouring Frankia and white Croatia (roughly Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) can only be Bohemia or land of Boii (hence Boika)

this is supported by increased I2a2 frequencies in southwest Bohemia (2-3 times more than the rest of Czech republic..e.g 14.6% in Klatovy and 9.2% in Pisek compared to around 4% in towns more east and north...see http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...20500/abstract )

it is also supported by placenames such as Sorviodurum (Straubing) in east Bavaria, and Srby, Srby and Serby in southwest Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District)

the historic source goes further it also states that Boika is the land where they did originally dwell... now Bohemia-Bavaria (both Bohemia and Bavaria were named after Boii) makes lot of sense for origin or early settlement place of I2, as I2b we find mostly north of it, I2a2 mostly east of it, and I2a1 south and southwest of it...


now, back to Serica, Serres and Serians.... white Serians from northern part of arc also still exist as well..




> Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as *Ak-Sart ("White Sart")* in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.
> ...
> 13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the *Mongols called people from Central Asia*, most notably Khwarezm, as *"Sartuul*". *"Sar" in Mongolian means "moon"*, hence *sart or sarta* would mean *"ones with (flag with) moon"*, since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. *One of the Mongolian tribes* living in the Zavkhan province are *descendants of merchants* from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called *Sartuul*.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

worth noting is that in Slavic languages word "srp" = sickle, crescent... this is one possible origin of tribal name Srbi... serb coat of arms has 4 "srp" elements...





> The modern Uzbek people are believed to have both Iranian and Turkic ancestry. "Uzbek" and "Tajik" are modern designations given to the culturally homogeneous, sedentary population of Central Asia. The local ancestors of both groups - the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks and the Iranian-speaking Tajiks - were known as "Sarts" ("sedentary merchants") prior to the Russian conquest of Central Asia, while "Uzbek" or "Turk" were the names given to the nomadic and semi-nomadic populations of the area. Still today, modern Uzbeks and Tajiks are known as "Sarts" to their Turkic neighbours, the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz.


white Serians of Asia are thus incorporated in Uzbeks and Tajiks as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

Serica proper was in northwest China




> Interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart





> The Dongxiang are closely related to the Mongolians. Scholars speculate that their identity as an independent ethnic group arose through contact with Central Asians, due to whom the Dongxiang converted to Sunni Islam in the 13th century.
> ...
> Their autonym, sarta, may also provide a contradictory clue to their origin: a similar word Sart was formerly used in Central Asia to refer to Arab traders[citation needed], later to the local (mostly) Turkic-speaking city dwellers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

those Sart people from Dongxiang Chinese province look like this


the Uzbek and Tajik white Sarts look like this


now, let us not forget Serians mentioned by Seneca as living in both Asia and Europe....




> [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
> 
> 27. i.e. the frozen surface.
> 28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.


Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

thus, we have Serians who live in both Europe and Asia but are clearly not Scythians
(as in europe they rule over scattered Scythians), nor Sarmatians (as in Caspian highlands they live unguarded from Sarmatians). Only historic tribe in both Asia and Europe that are not Sarmatians or Scythians are Cimmerians...

Seneca's Serians in Caspian highlands map to Serboi /Serbi recorded to live there by Pliny the elder


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians


in my opinion I2a2 in Kurds came from north from around Black sea areas with Sherdana sea peoples...


in the end, some parallels between Serbs and Kurds




> Kurdish dance is a group of traditional *hand-holding dances* similar to those from the *Balkans*, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is same as circle dance with holding hands that is typical for Serbs and Slavs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

Catalan version of the dance is called Sardana...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in Turkish language words for wolf are Kurt and Zampara 
(from google translate)

similarity of words Kurd/Kurt indicates that Turkish word Kurt might have come to existenc due to Kurds being related to wolf 
wolf is (besides eagle) an animal which is related to Serbs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

the tribal name Kurd may have been same as Sherdana and Scordisci
note that "Sh" in sherdana and "Sc" in Scordisci were likely both pronounced as š which is sound between "s" and"k" something like in english "shine", "show"...

e.g. Šar planina (Šar mountain) mountain in east Kosovo and west Macedonia is in Greece named Scordus mountain and is named after Scordisci 

but if we compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain, it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of tribal name Shardana.... 

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?

in fact, those may have been original Celtic people...





> Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For *Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites.*"[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer


note also that Seneca speaks of Serians (I2a-Din from above) rule over Scythians (R1a from ancient DNA) hence Slavic people as mix of R1a and I2a-Din...

Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs / white Sarts / Sarbans / Kurds?

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## sparkey

How yes no, have you seen Nordtvedt's latest Haplogroup I conjectured spread map? I am thinking about the spread of Haplogroup I along the same lines, whereby all of its major branching occurred in Europe, but leaving open recent migrations East, notably of I2*-B (dotted green line on Nordtvedt's map) and I2a-Din (eastern dotted red lines on Nordtvedt's map). Note that he allows migrations of I2a-Din to the north of the Black Sea given current evidence, probably geographically parallel but temporally separate to the I2*-B that ended up in Armenians.

See Nordtvedt's homepage and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf".

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## KurdishAryan

*lol you guys posted so much .. :)

and i say only; kurdish dna s are lile spanish greek and itally dna s ..and do you think that all europeans have blond hair and blue eyes.. thats lol see portugal..see spain see italy seegreece all that are like kurds... so kurds have same dna s like these.. and kurds are old european and see thee map this is true europe , and dont be worry because of islam ,kurds have not only islam religion lol so you can accept kurds as european .i know because of islam you europeasn cant accept turkey ,too : )) if there would stay an christ. state you would accept it in the eu ,so quickly.. 

see a short video ..kurdish europeans.. :* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL

* and this map is map from europe ,,and there you cant see iraq iran or syria.. here: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg and see euro. people incl. kurds http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp and thats shows all.. and thsdi website created by true europeans.. and we cant forget that a lot of kurds were* *assimilated by arabs turks and persian .*

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## iapetoc

ALBANIA IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY,
why EU is about to accept Albania and to turkey?

so the case turkey is out cause its muslim is not based,

in India also have blond people and in Persia and afgan,
why you connect the blond of curds with only Europeans?

just asking.

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## Knovas

You can't ignore what admixture analysis say. Phisycal appearence does not definetly prove nothing, because light features are not only in mainland Europe, it's easy to see them in other Caucasoids due to ancient admixture. Kurds have European blood, however their major component is West Asian and Southwest Asian, wich are NOT European Caucasoids, but clearly similar to them.

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## sparkey

> *lol you guys posted so much .. :)*


If it's too much to read, the consensus we seem to be building is that Kurds are a Near Eastern Indo-European ethnic group with a significant European component (at least more than their neighbors) that's worth investigating. I don't think anybody is agreeing with the statement that "Kurds are Europeans," though... more like they've just got an unusually large number of European ancestors for their region.

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## how yes no 2

> It seems that the *name of the Syrians* extended *not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus*, but also* in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine.* At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called *"White Syrians,"*3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/16A*.html

there are Syrians and white Syrians..where does distinction come from?

while white Syrians I related to I2a-din and Cimmerians/Gomer, question is who were other Syrians genetically... J2? E-V13?

Gomer is ancestor of all germanian people... among them are also tribes such as Goths, Hatti.. perhaps Getae were also Germanic....

now, look at this




> The *Gutian* dynasty came to power in Mesopotamia around 2150 BC (short chronology), by destabilising Akkad, according to the Sumerian kinglist at the end of the reign of king Ur-Utu (or Lugal-melem) of Uruk. They reigned for perhaps around one century (copies of the kinglist vary between 25 and 124 years; 91 years is often quoted as probable). The dynasty was succeeded by the 3rd dynasty of Ur.
> The Gutian people (Guti) were native to Gutium, presumably in the central *Zagros* Mountains; almost nothing is known about their origins.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

so, Gutians from Zagros mountains were ruling over Sumer for 100 years or more...
Guti = Goti... = perhaps Hatti that were in Asia minor before Hittite...

pay attention to this

in north mythology Hati = giant wolf
in turkish language Kurt = wolf

interestingly, Hati Hróðvitnisson it is the wolf that chases the moon...



> In Norse mythology, Hati *Hróðvit*nisson (first name meaning "He Who Hates, Enemy"[1]) is a wolf that according to Gylfaginning *chases the Moon* across the *night* sky, just as the *wolf Sköll chases the Sun during the day*, until the time of Ragnarök when they will swallow these heavenly bodies, after which Fenrir will break free from his bonds and kill Odin.
> Hati's surname is Hróðvitnisson, attested in both Grímnismál and Gylfaginning, which indicates that he is the son of Fenrir, whose alternate name is Hróðvitnir ("Famous Wolf").


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hati_Hr...C3%B0vitnisson

note that possible origin of tribal name of serbs is moon as in Slavic "srp" (= crescent, sickle) and in mongolian sar (moon, crescent)

east Germanic Hiri are known to be spooky night warriors...
they are coupled with Scirii, Sciri, Scirians, Skirii, Skiri or Skirians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii
whose tribal name Scirians is just coruption of Serians... same as Sclaveni for Sloveni... or Scordisci for celtic version of Serdi

seri and hurri are paired bulls that represent day and night in Asia minor mythology... again pair, and hurri related to dark, and seri to light though daylight and not moonlight...

seri is also name that comes from serians/sumerians... while hurri might be related to Hurrians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians




> The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)


back to Gutians ruling over Sumer
100 years of ruling a state is enough to begin identifying with its name...
thus Gutians who rulled over Sumer became white-Syrians and Cimmerians (=Sumerians)..they came from north so they probably had somewhat lighter complexion than original Sumerians / Syrians... hence white-Syrians..

so, I wouldnot exclude Goths being I2a-din as well.... perhaps a branch that didnot become white Syrians. kept name Guti.. 

in fact, tribal names are sometimes wrongly transcribed in non native languages....
let's play with word Guti....
in slavic similar word is ljuti = angry ones
(angry ones would be easily origin for tribal name e.g. Lutici are Polabian Slav tribe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici, but it is not really as close to 'guti')
alternative would be ljudi (people) which is to my ear much more alike to Gothic Thiuda than Germanic Deutch is... 

according to disputed medieval source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic...iest_of_Duklja) south Slavs are Goths...

but Scordisci are Celtic people... Serdi are Celtic people from area of Scordisci who became Thracians..
Serdi may be explanation for I2a-din on west coast of Asia minor that was never settled by Slavs...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

ancient Rome historians did speculate that name Germans was used to identify original Celts...
but could original Celts have been Cimmerians as claimed by Josephus? Celts called themselves Keltoi, which could be a version of Guti...could be same tribal name as Guti and even same as Anatolian Hatti (whose primary god has name Taru similar to Germanic Thor, while later Hittite have same god as Tarhun, which is alike to slavic Perun, celtic taranis, and Baltic Perkunas.. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

note that Celts are mentioned also as living in Africa, and there is no native European R1b in Africa, but there is native I2a1...




> 138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...hlight=galatia

this also shows Galatae gives names Kelts and Gauls..why not both Galatae and Goti being names derived from older Guti?

Celts in Africa are in my opinion I2a1 and went under name Garamantes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes

Garamantes were advanced civilization that had irrigation systems that made Sahara bloom...their capital Germa (name to the town seems to have been given by archeologist recently to mark capital of Garamantes) is near modern town Sebha...

alternative name for Celts is Gali... this is area of Galicia in east Europe



that is core of I2a2 in Ukraine area...


and that is also the area of white-Croatia, while white-Serbia is west of it in land Boika, which is, as explained above, Bohemia where another hotspot of I2a2 is.......

so Slavic I2a-Din we may map to white-Croats, white-Serbs and perhaps Goths...
white in white-Croats and white-Serbs was translated to white = west (ancient color system) ...
was white-Syrians the same? or was white-Serbs and white-Croats remain of old white-Syrian/white-Sart


Bavarian manuscript speaks of state of Zeruiani was so big (and above we could see how big is state of Serians) that all Slavs come form it.....

big state of Zeruiani - is it about syrians or white Syrians? if it was white-Syrians this may have been about state of Goths or Sarmatians (though Seneca is clear that in Caspian highlands Serians live among Sarmatians which implies not being one of them) ... if it is about Syrians, than this could be about hellenic empire....

Zorya = Slavic triple goddess - representing 3 stars: morning, evening and night..
her name means "dawn" and morning star is maped to northern star Zvezda(star) Danica... (dan = day)... if we would try to map zeruiani to Hellenic people, tribal name derived from zorya (as in Zeruiani) would by name of her most important morning star form map to Danaans (acheans - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaans) well...

so Syrians might have been I think J2 with e-V13 and white-Syrians I2a
this is consistent with haplogroup I not really widely present in Sumer only north of it among Kurds..
curiously, Siraces who lived on north shores of Black sea and are thought to be same or related to Serboi, are most hellenized of all Sarmatians..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

Zorya lives together with sun, east, north and west wind...sun is symbol of ancient Macedonians...in Greek mythology winds are Anemoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi , same gods are Venti in latin) and I map them to Slavic tribes: west wind Zephyrus (born in caves of thrace_ to Serbs, east wind Eurus to Russians, north wind Borea to Prussians/Borussians, and son of Zephyrus is Carpus whom I map to Croats).. so Zorya/Danica/Danaans living together with sun (ancient Macedonians) and north, west and east wind ( = Veneti/Thracian proto-Slavs) would be about Helenic empire... in fact, those Veneti/Venti tribes might have been not really Slavic originally but something in between germanic, celtic and slavic speaking, while R1a spoke Balto-Slavic.....maybe they were east germanic tribes that are also west slavic...perhaps Scirri, Hiri that are known to have been related to Venedi... 


are Kurdish Sorani related to Serians or white Serians?


I think Serians as they have more J2 and less I2a than northern Kurds who would be related to white Serians / Cimmerians same as Serbs...thus Sorani would be more like Danaans/Acheans...

so north Kurds would be closer to Serbs, south Kurds to Greeks...
and of course there is some Scythian / (proto-slavic?) R1a in both...

----------


## iapetoc

I also believe that there is European and mediterranean blood in Kurds, 

but can you prove it?

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## Knovas

See Dodecad portraits up, I think it's obvious.

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## KurdishAryan

See dna tests kurds have not asian dna tests but dna s like greek/italian/sPanish people ,thats fact . im north kurd so kurd from northkurdistan ("turkish kurdistan" ) and see dna tests here:
see kurdish europeans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL

2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM
See (turkish kurdistan)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

and why you think why these europeans placed kurdistan to europe ? if kurds would be not europeans then they would not put kurdistan to europe map and to european MINORITIES see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
why these european website have not put iraq or iran to europe ? .. because they are not european, this is true europe if yo ucan accept or not , so now forget religions in this are.. thsi is true europe : 

http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

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## Knovas

You are confusing concepts. Y-DNA (and mtDNA too), is only a marker wich tells the origin of an individual going thousands of years ago, but it's imposible to know with it the REAL admixture of a person. So most Kurds show Indo-European origin, but admixture analysis show that all of them mixed with other similar populations, the mentioned Asian Caucasoids. This populations are closer to Europeans than Asians, but are not the same. So it's not rare to see Kurds and other Near Easterns with European look, but this is not a prove for what you say and, of course Y-DNA and mtDNA, isn't too as I explained.

And haplogroup T is quite apreciable in Kurds, and very linked with the Near/Middle East and Africa. There are regions in Europe with higher or more or less the same presence of this haplogroup, but are only this: regions. In all Europe haplogroup T represents just 1% according to Eupidia, you can check it in the haplogroup description.

Geographically speaking, perhaps is posible to discuss if Kurds are European or not, but genetically speaking, Kurds are Near Easterns with substantial European ancestry, quite low compared with mainland Europeans. That's what autosomal analysis tell, there is nothing to discuss here.

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## iapetoc

there is Balcanic mark in Kurds, about 10-20% according area that misses from some tribes of Kurds in Iran 

the place that kurds are assosiated is little more west and south that they are today,

somewhere about west from Diyarbakir

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## Goga

> You are confusing concepts. Y-DNA (and mtDNA too), is only a marker wich tells the origin of an individual going thousands of years ago, but it's imposible to know with it the REAL admixture of a person. So most Kurds show Indo-European origin, but admixture analysis show that all of them mixed with other similar populations, the mentioned Asian Caucasoids. This populations are closer to Europeans than Asians, but are not the same. So it's not rare to see Kurds and other Near Easterns with European look, but this is not a prove for what you say and, of course Y-DNA and mtDNA, isn't too as I explained.
> 
> And haplogroup T is quite apreciable in Kurds, and very linked with the Near/Middle East and Africa. There are regions in Europe with higher or more or less the same presence of this haplogroup, but are only this: regions. In all Europe haplogroup T represents just 1% according to Eupidia, you can check it in the haplogroup description.
> 
> Geographically speaking, perhaps is posible to discuss if Kurds are European or not, but genetically speaking, Kurds are Near Easterns with substantial European ancestry, quite low compared with mainland Europeans. That's what autosomal analysis tell, there is nothing to discuss here.


There're different kinds of haplogorup T. Like different kinds of haplogroup E.Kurdish haplogroup T is a Western Asian one. I believe Kurds have that haplogroup because of the Medes. The Medes absorbed many Kassites and Elamites. I believe that the original people that belonged to that haplogroup were the Elamites.

And Kurds are more Indo-European people than people from Spain or other parts of Europe. Most Europeans are native to Europe, Kurds are native to Kurdistan and Kurdistan is in West Asia. Proto Indo-Europeans were West-Asian folks, like Kurds. They came from the Middle East.

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## Goga

The third president of the US, Thomas Jefferson, was in Haplogroup T.

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## Knovas

How do you explain results of admixture analysis so? Very different interpretation from waht you say. Kurds have less than 40% of European, While Greeks go far from 60%, and Spaniards 90%...haplogroups don't tell the full History as I explained.

Agree with different kinds of Haplogroup T. However, it is believed that Thomas Jefferson had Jewish background. 6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.

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## Goga

> How do you explain results of admixture analysis so? Very different interpretation from waht you say. Kurds have less than 40% of European, While Greeks go far from 60%, and Spaniards 90%...haplogroups don't tell the full History as I explained.
> 
> Agree with different kinds of Haplogroup T. However, it is believed that Thomas Jefferson had Jewish background. 6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.


Kurdish MtDNA is distinguish from the European, Caucasian and West Asian population. Kurdish MtDNA is very unique one and shows some parallels only with Indo-European western Persians and some folks in the Caucasus.

Greeks, Spaniards live in Europe, of course most of them are native Europeans and some of them are mixed with North Africans. Kurds are a (missing) link between Europe and Asia. Kurds are native to their homeland, which is in Asia and Greeks and Spaniards are native to their homeland, which is in Europe.

I don't consider Spaniards as Indo-Europeans by race. They're only Indo-Europeans by language. But Kurds are Indo-Europeans by race and language.

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## Goga

> 6% of Sephardic Jews belong to haplogrouop T.


So what? 13% of Sephardic Jews belongs to haplogroup R1b.

Btw, according the Jewish, they're originally from the northern parts of Mesopotamia. I don't know if their haplogroup T is the same as a Kurdish one, but they found very much of Kurdish haplogoup T in places where the ancient Medes lived, like eastern Kurdistan and Azerbaijan in the north around the Caucasus mountains.

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## iapetoc

> Kurdish MtDNA is distinguish from European, Caucasian and West Asian population. Kurdish MtDNA is very unique one and shows some parallels only with Indo-European western Persians and some folks in the Caucasus.
> 
> Greeks, Spaniards live in Europe, of course most of them are native Europeans and some of them are mixed with North Africans. Kurds are a (missing) link between Europe and Asia. Kurds are native to their homeland, which is in Asia and Greeks and Spaniards are native to their homeland, which is in Europe.
> 
> I don't consider Spaniards as Indo-Europeans by race. They're only Indo-Europeans by language. But Kurds are Indo-Europeans by race and language.



I agree with you with 1 condition
*the thread sais Kurds = Europeans*
*not Kurds = IndoEuropeans*

nobody denies the IE party of curds,
it is another story the E and another the IE 

besides who is European is another story, 

why r1b and r1a can be considered European and not M-78 or E-V13? 
one came from east and north asia, the other came from south so?
the case of kurds is 20% mediterranean and in some western tribes in Diyarbakir i think have big I Y-Dna
a possible assimilation of phrygians and west minor asia I people under an army created to served a persian king?
Skudet skudra people that moved to asia to serve Persian mixed with carduchoi?
or north pontic scythians ?

besides the problem of the one who post the thread is obvius, 





> *lol you guys posted so much .. :)
> 
> and i say only; kurdish dna s are lile spanish greek and itally dna s ..and do you think that all europeans have blond hair and blue eyes.. thats lol see portugal..see spain see italy seegreece all that are like kurds... so kurds have same dna s like these.. and kurds are old european and see thee map this is true europe , and dont be worry because of islam ,kurds have not only islam religion lol so you can accept kurds as european .i know because of islam you europeasn cant accept turkey ,too : )) if there would stay an christ. state you would accept it in the eu ,so quickly.. 
> 
> see a short video ..kurdish europeans.. :* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kn6u..._order&list=UL
> 
> * and this map is map from europe ,,and there you cant see iraq iran or syria.. here: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg and see euro. people incl. kurds http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp and thats shows all.. and thsdi website created by true europeans.. and we cant forget that a lot of kurds were* *assimilated by arabs turks and persian .*





we have a clear misunderstanding of what is IE and what is European
Carduchoi or corduanes or gordianes is an ancient indoiranian tribe that moved from phrygia to persia and from armenia to syria and cillikia,
they were always a moving camp of warriors, bow users
we can found in skudra case 

there is no doubt that are west asian, middle east people, with mix of I Y-Dna 
now if IE = European is another case,

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## Goga

> I agree with you with 1 condition
> *the thread sais Kurds = Europeans*
> *not Kurds = IndoEuropeans*
> 
> nobody denies the IE party of curds,
> it is another story the E and another the IE 
> 
> besides who is European is another story, 
> 
> ...


You're right! Spaniards are native Europeans with a admixture with North Africans and Greeks are native Europeans with very much admixure with North Africans and West Asians.

Kurds are absolutely NOT European, and they were never European. Kurds are native to their homeland, Kurdistan. And Kurdistan IS in Asia! Kurds are Indo-Europeans, because they speak an IE language. And I believe that the proto Indo-European speakers came from the place which is nowadays occupied by the modern Kurds.


r1b and r1a is not only European but also Asiatic. Haplogorups r1b and r1a are archaic Euro-Asiatic haplogroups that are spread all over the place in the northern parts of Eurasia, from Europe to Central Asia!

There's not such thing as an 'European', 'African' or 'Asian' haplogorup. ALL Homo sapien haplogroups overlap each other in these continents! 
Sure some regions have their own defined haplgroups that are evolved from archaic Homo sapien haplogorups like R, J, E etc...

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## Goga

> Indian genes


 ????

Indian genes? Can you describe these Indian genes. Never heard of them...

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## iapetoc

> ????
> 
> Indian genes? Can you describe these Indian genes. Never heard of them...


sory wrong expression, 
and i have to correct it.

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## Knovas

Ok I understand. We are absolutly agree Goga.

Also, keep in mind that talk about "pure" Europeans is not real. Spaniards have little North African admixture, while Northern Europeans have West Asian in them. Only the Basques and some Baltic people will become really 100% European.

I know that haplogroups are quite diverse in Sepahrdic Jews. However, haplogroup T is rare in Europe, and a 6% in Sephardics Jews is very significant. It's not the same in Northern Europe, but a person with substantial Southern European ancestry for example, has more posibilities of jewish ancestry carrying this marker than others.

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## Goga

> haplogroup T is rare in Europe, and a 6% in Sephardics Jews is very significant. It's not the same in Northern Europe, but a person with substantial Southern European ancestry for example, has more posibilities of jewish ancestry carrying this marker than others.


Archaic haplogroup T is not rare in Europe, it is spread all over the Europe! According to many scientists even the archaic haplogroup T originated in Asia, where the Elamites and the Persians lived.

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## Goga

> Also, keep in mind that talk about "pure" Europeans is not real. Spaniards have little North African admixture, while Northern Europeans have West Asian in them. Only the Basques and some Baltic people will become really 100% European.


Yes haplogroups N and Q are native to the Baltics. Like they're native to Central Asian Turkic folks. Haplogroups R1, N and Q are native to the northern part of the Eurasian continent, from Europe to Central Asia!

Btw, did you know that Basques were related to the Etruscans? The Etruscans were West Asians. And Basques show some similarities with peoples in the Caucasus. Maybe those Basques are from the Caucasus???

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## Knovas

The map you post of haplogroup T is wrong. Wikipedia (where the map comes from) is not reliable talking about genetics. Also reading the explanation they give it's easy to see some contradictions. Frequencies showed here in Eupidia are better, just think that more than 20% of haplogroup T around Central Europe is absurd...there is a lot of contrast comparing with Eupidia, I don't give any credit to wikipedia in this concrete issue.

I read something about the Etrucans and Basques, but don't know so much about it. What I know is that most of them are shown 100% European in admixture analysis, composed allmost entirely of West European and Mediterranean component. Some Iberians also can show similar proportions considering that they are more or less the same ethinc group, but they are a minority.

And if we check Lithuanians, for sure we'll find quite of them almost 100% European, of course much more Northern European than the Basques.

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## Goga

> And if we check Lithuanians, for sure we'll find quite of them almost 100% European, of course much more Northern European than the Basques.


Yes, because their subclade of the more archaic haplogroup of N is native to Europe! 42% of Lithuanians belong to n1. So haplogroup N is native to Europe and Northern Asia (among Turkic folks). The same thing is with r1, haplogorup r1 is native to Europe AND Asia.

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## Goga

> The map you post of haplogroup T is wrong. Wikipedia (where the map comes from) is not reliable talking about genetics. Also reading the explanation they give it's easy to see some contradictions. Frequencies showed here in Eupidia are better, just think that more than 20% of haplogroup T around Central Europe is absurd...there is a lot of contrast comparing with Eupidia, I don't give any credit to wikipedia in this concrete issue.


Since the last time I checked Arabs (Semitic by language) don't have that much haplogroup T. Most Arabs belong to J and E!

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## Knovas

I think most Lithuanians belong to haplogroup N1c1 like the Finns. I find this subclade very interesting, but I don't want to deviate the actual thread. I posted my opinion in this post: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-and-the-Finns

If you know additional information would be good to post there too.

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## Goga

I'm out, haplogroup I in Kurds is a West Asian component.

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## Knovas

I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.

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## Ferreiro_

> I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.


You don't believe in Y-DNA: 
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...011#post375011

then why do you participate in this forum?

Wait, I understand it yet, in the case of haplogroup E-M81 (present in Spain and from berber origin) does not mean anything, but when it comes to other haplogroups you are very interested. It's funny.

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## Knovas

What are you saying t.r.o.l.l.? I'm not denying any haplogroup origin. According to Eupidia haplogroup I (Y-DNA), originated in Europe, not in West Asia. Considering that haplogroup I (mtDNA) probably originated in the Caucasus, it makes more sense

What is your objection? don't you see you are ridiculous proving your silly agenda? XD

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## Goga

> I don't know what you mean. Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) originated in Europe. If you talk about haplogroup I (mtDNA), the thing perhaps goes different.


Haplogroup I in Kurds is an Asian marker. It is in Asia, isn't it? And it has been in Asia for thousands of years. So it's Asian! Like some subclades in Ossetians, some other folks of Caucasus and some West Persians.

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## Knovas

Well, we should see if their subclades really originated in Asia or not, I really ignore this since never heard or read about it. Can you provide more information about the subclades?

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## sparkey

> Haplogroup I in Kurds is an Asian marker. It is in Asia, isn't it? And it has been in Asia for thousands of years. So it's Asian! Like some subclades in Ossetians, some other folks of Caucasus and some West Persians.


"Thousands" = maybe 3000. I suppose that's made it old enough to have certain sub-sub-clades becoming "Asian," but we have yet to find an Asian-origin Haplogroup I SNP as far as I know. Still, I think most here would say that European R1b is "Asian-origin," so it's probably fairer to call Asian I "European-origin."

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## Goga

> Well, we should see if their subclades really originated in Asia or not, I really ignore this since never heard or read about it. Can you provide more information about the subclades?


There is absolutely NO proof that the archaic haplogroup I (M170) is from Europe. Many West Asians have that marker. Many scientists think it is from West Asia splited from West Asian IJ. But these are all theories…

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## Knovas

I must recognize it's not imposible, but I see it more difficult to proof since the most part of haplogroup I it's found in mainland Europe.

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## Goga

Accrording to the Croatian scientists: 

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm



http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

Croatian scientists.jpg

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## Ferreiro_

> There is absolutely NO proof that the archaic haplogroup I (M170) is from Europe. Many West Asians have that marker. Many scientists think it is from West Asia splited from West Asian IJ. But these are all theories…


Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.

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## Goga

> Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.


Ok, but I'm here not to talk cheap or trash talk about somebody or some individuals.

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## Knovas

Listen cockatoo, here we have a civilized discussion, and everybody understands how the thing was going before your noisy intervention.

Get date for the psychiatrist.

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## sparkey

> Accrording to the Croatian scientists: 
> 
> http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm


It is entirely possible that the SNP M170 originated in Asia and then went extinct there, or it could have originated in Europe from IJ Cro-Magnon descendants (with the IJ going extinct in Europe). In fact, Haplogroup I bottlenecked significantly enough, and has been found in so few ancient DNA samples, that it's hard to tell much of anything about its earliest history.

I will say that there's little doubt that IJ originated in Asia... the only other possibility I can even think of is North Africa, and that seems less likely to me.




> Be careful with those spaniards. They always deny the possibility of a Haplogroup come from outside Europe. Fortunately, not all Spanish are so.


Knovas hasn't said anything wrong here. The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.

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## Goga

> The center of diversity of Haplogroup I is in Europe. It's been in Europe for quite some time.


Maybe because European haplogroup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogroup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?

Maybe R1b folks migrated much earlier into West Asia than into West Europe. Haplogroup I also competed with Caucasian haplogroups like G and J2. And haplogroup I in Europe had NO competition...

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## sparkey

> Maybe because European haplogorup I* had time and space to evolve further. West Asian haplogorup I* had not much time to develop further because it competed with other haplogroups?


What do you mean? SNPs develop independently of "space." I mean, a given line of Haplogroup I won't care if a bunch of Haplogroup J is nearby... all genetic drift does is to alter a distribution within a population, not along a certain line.

If I* originated in Asia, its lines that remained entirely in Asia are unobserved in both modern and ancient DNA. The "I*" we see in studies have so far just meant that not enough SNPs were tested, according to Ken Nordtvedt. We haven't found IJ yet, either.

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## Alan

you mixed things up. Kurds are *Indo-Europeans* a linguistic family different from being "European" in cultural, historic and geographic meaning. God people like you are embarrassing. Before starting such nonsense topics go educate yourself. 

Can you speak kurdish? Ti kurdi zana? Tu Kurdi Zane?

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## Alan

> Haplogroups don't tell so much about ethnicity. Must be considerated, but only Autosomoal DNA revels the full genetic History. And I think that Kurds have more Near Eastern (West and Southwest Asian) than European in their genome. We can take Kurds as Caucasoids, but not esentially Europeans.
> 
> By the way, 6.5% of T is quite high. There are a few European regions scoring higher or more or less the same. Any European country in general terms will get a report like this.
> 
> Haplogroup T is more related to the Near East and some African Populations. It is believed to originate around the red sea (probably Ethiopia). You can check the information in this forum. I think there are also several parts in India where its presence looks significant, but I'm not sure.


Very right. But just to correct. Kurds are mainly of the "West Asian" component while the "South Westasian" is only a minor element. The "Mediterranean" Element (20-30%) is even higher among them.





> I'm afraid you are wrong. Dodecad (Dienekes') shows a completely different story.
> 
> First of all, a population portrait of the Kurds to make it easy, based on the latest analysis: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9oDPeNZPo...%2BKurd_12.png
> 
> And second, the averages of populations, where you can compare and see that Spaniards, Italians, Greeks, etc., have a lot more European genes than the Kurds: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0
> 
> If you just look at the Greek average, only the Mediterranean component goes at 46%, much more European than any Kurd, and if you look Spaniards the difference is higher.
> 
> Kurds are Caucasoids, but not the same as Europeans just because some of them look like with light traits. Haplogroups only tell information about a first ancestor who lived thousands of years ago, the complete information is only posible to get in Autosomal analysis, and it's clear that Kurds have very significant Middle Eastern imput, and little from other non European places too. European component is less than 40% in Kurds. Also Haplogroup T, as I said, is easy to be asociated with Africa, Middle East and probably India.
> ...



I agree totally with what you wrote however I have to fix somethings here too. When we download all the admixture maps uploaded by Dienekes, we see that he used the Xing et al. Kurds.

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/...-european.html

If we look at the study of Xing et al , we see this




> To study the relationship between the various West Asian Indo-European groups, I gathered an Iranian sample (from Behar et al.), an* Iraqi Kurdish one* (from Xing et al.),


What I am trying to say is that we shouldnt take dienekes admixture of Kurds as representative and we probably would get some small but still obvious differences if a group of Turkish Kurds would have been used.

We also see noticeable differences between Anatolian and Iraqi kurdish yDNA. The Former having more I2a*,G and less J2, J1, and R1b. the autosomal dna wil also have differences I assume.


however it is clear that the Kurds are mainly West Asia, having Mediterranean as second strongest element and followed as minor Elements by South Westasian, West/East European and South Asian at least among Iraqi Kurds.

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## archaiocapilos

> Very right. But just to correct. Kurds are mainly of the "West Asian" component while the "South Westasian" is only a minor element. The "Mediterranean" Element (20-30%) is even higher among them.


They also have 10% of South Asian component (that Dienekes links to Indo-Aryans) which is completely ubsent in Europe. Being related to Indo-Europeans does not equal with being European in DNA because some IE linguistic families had substantial non-European admixture since their formation (they were formed out of Europe). Indo-Aryans had South-Asian & West Asian while the Greco-Phrygo-Armenian group had only West Asian for example...

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## Alan

> [B]lol you guys posted so much .. :)


The only thing I can say, is that you are very wrong. I doubt that you are a Kurd. still doesen´t answered my Kurdish.

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## Alan

> They also have 10% of South Asian component (that Dienekes links to Indo-Aryans) which is completely ubsent in Europe. Being related to Indo-Europeans does not equal with being European in DNA because some IE linguistic families had substantial non-European admixture since their formation (they were formed out of Europe). Indo-Aryans had South-Asian & West Asian while the Greco-Phrygo-Armenian group had only West Asian for example...


I think I mentioned this. Read above.
Well to be exactly it is ~9% but South Asian is recently also found among European Groups. Something around 1-3%.

And I wouldn´t link this to Indo-Aryans because Indo Aryans evolved somewhere different. I think it is recent Gene flow from East. However The South Asian component found among Kurds is even less than the West/East European component. And I think it is worse to be mentioned every time that the "South Asian" component is rather of "Ani-West Eurasian" Character than "Asi". This study is only representative for a small Group of Kurds mainly from Iraq.

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## Alan

Different Studies about Anatolian Kurds have shown that they are genetically most similar to Armenians. I also don´t understand why Dienekes is only using the Xing et al Data and tries to show it as representative while he also has studies about Kurds from Anatolia. Sometimes I got a feeling like, if he is trying to show Kurds as Northwest Iranians-Mesopotamian "Invaders" and Turks like "assimilated" Armenians to claim a "Armenian-Greek" heritage of Anatolia just like you are doing now.

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## Knovas

Totally agree with you Alan, I forgot some details but wanted to say exactly the same. And also yes, South Asian component is not absent in Europe, but I'm not sure if all times would be real since scores like 0.5 %, 0.6 %, are quite usual. Tools are not perfect, and a margin of error must always be considered. However, there are several Europeans scoring more than 1%, wich seems to indicate not noise at all.

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## iapetoc

just wrong post

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## archaiocapilos

> Different Studies about Anatolian Kurds have shown that they are genetically most similar to Armenians. I also don´t understand why Dienekes is only using the Xing et al Data and tries to show it as representative while he also has studies about Kurds from Anatolia. Sometimes I got a feeling like, if he is trying to show Kurds as Northwest Iranians-Mesopotamian "Invaders" and Turks like "assimilated" Armenians to claim a "Armenian-Greek" heritage of Anatolia just like you are doing now.


I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language. BTW I thought that Kurds were actually a North West Iranian group, do you have an other theory? And why do you deny the Mesopotamian influence on Kurds, isn't Kurdistan located in North Mesopotamia/South East Anatolia?

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## archaiocapilos

Offcourse this doesn't mean that Kurds are invaders in Anatolia because Iranian presense there is from very ancient times

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## Goga

> I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language.


There is some Indo Aryan component in Kurds because of the east Iranian folks like the Bactrians and Sogdians. West Iranian folks like the Medes had many international treaties with the East Iranian folks. Once East Iranians even took part in the Median Empire.

West Iranians (Medes) are not the same as East Iranians (Bactrians, Sogdians). East Iranians have almost no i* and more r1a than West Iranians.

According to the same Dienekes, original Aryans migrated from West Asia into northern India. Because there's a too high West Asian component (j2, g) in the Indo Aryan population.

Notice, Indo Aryans are not the same as Aryans…

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## Alan

> I don't think Dienekes has anything against Kurds, the reason he attributes South Asian to Indo-Aryans is because it is present in all modern groups that speak an Indo-Iranian language. BTW I thought that Kurds were actually a North West Iranian group, do you have an other theory? And why do you deny the Mesopotamian influence on Kurds, isn't Kurdistan located in North Mesopotamia/South East Anatolia?


No sorry my friend you did understand me wrong. Sometimes I have hard time to make me clear(This is my own fault). I meant that he used the Xing et al Kurds which were mainly or all from Iraq you see it in the study. And Dienekes calls their admixture "Kurdish" as if it is representative for all Kurds while he obviously knows about studies from Kurds in Anatolia too. So why dont use them? This is my point. I am not saying that he has a bias against Kurds. It simple seems to me as if he tries to show the Kurds being originally from Northwest Iran and as if Armenians and Greeks are the real natives to Anatolia. 

Well about Kurds being from Northwest Iran. This is wrong. Kurds just like any Group of this world have different ancestors. Many Kurds in Anatolia are actually descend from Hurrians(mittanni)-Gutians, Scythians, Cimmerians. While the Kurds from Northwest Iran probably have the same ancestors but also some more like Medes.

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## archaiocapilos

> I am not saying that he has a bias against Kurds. It simple seems to me as if he tries to show the Kurds being originally from Northwest Iran and as if Armenians and Greeks are the real natives to Anatolia. 
> .


I think that Dienekes never claimed a native origin for Greeks in Anatolia (allthough Anatolian Greeks would have a large native ancestry) while Armenians seem really native in their land. Anatolian Kurds share also native ancestry moreso then Greeks but propably less then Armenians

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## KurdishAryan

*



A Research Project: “Indo-European languages of Europe” vs. “Classical Culture”


*

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## KurdishAryan

> you mixed things up. Kurds are *Indo-Europeans* a linguistic family different from being "European" in cultural, historic and geographic meaning. God people like you are embarrassing. Before starting such nonsense topics go educate yourself. 
> 
> Can you speak kurdish? Ti kurdi zana? Tu Kurdi Zane?


 lol what is your problem are you ok .
kurds are european or indo european too like spanish or italian people see dna tests .

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indoeurop%C3%A4er

kurds are not arabs or mongolian turks. and dont be worry i educated myself.and i can speak kurdish ( Ez kurdî zanim )and now..

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## Alan

bashe tu kurde ku der u cend sali

Still this doesent change that you have no knowledge what you are talking about. All Users including me told you that you are wrong.

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## Knovas

Sorry KurdishAryan, it's all perfectly explained. Think what you want, I personally find Kurds very interesting for their usual European look, but this and Y-DNA is not enough to consider them genetically Europeans. Admixture analysis are clear in that issue.

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## KurdishAryan

> Sorry KurdishAryan, it's all perfectly explained. Think what you want, I personally find Kurds very interesting for their usual European look, but this and Y-DNA is not enough to consider them genetically Europeans. Admixture analysis are clear in that issue.


 lol only "very interesting for their usual European look," no kurds are so , kurds are indo eurobean . see sources . i created this topic because a lot of people thought that kurds are "arabs " or "mongolian turks" .

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## Knovas

Quite of them can pass as Europeans I think, that's no wrong in any case. Indo-European it's not like you said, plain "European". It's all very well explained.

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## iapetoc

> No sorry my friend you did understand me wrong. Sometimes I have hard time to make me clear(This is my own fault). I meant that he used the Xing et al Kurds which were mainly or all from Iraq you see it in the study. And Dienekes calls their admixture "Kurdish" as if it is representative for all Kurds while he obviously knows about studies from Kurds in Anatolia too. So why dont use them? This is my point. I am not saying that he has a bias against Kurds. It simple seems to me as if he tries to show the Kurds being originally from Northwest Iran and as if Armenians and Greeks are the real natives to Anatolia. 
> 
> Well about Kurds being from Northwest Iran. This is wrong. Kurds just like any Group of this world have different ancestors. Many Kurds in Anatolia are actually descend from Hurrians(mittanni)-Gutians, Scythians, Cimmerians. While the Kurds from Northwest Iran probably have the same ancestors but also some more like Medes.



first of all let away Kurdisharyan cause he lives in another world,
you know well that Kurds are middle eastern east anatolian 
link among Laz greek armenians syrrians, Persians and turks (not seljuk, the rest)
Now about dienekes uses Xing probably for some reason,
Xing data are clear of 1 kurdish tribe and you know it,
they are good data and pure about area, 
that means that the kurdish you mention as iraqi kurds are clear about 1 sub nation, 
do you also expect to use cinioglu and karafet about curds?
wanted or not iraqi kurds are the first about a new political situation,

with time you will see more, cause kurds are leaving the old style and enter new style, maybe a new search test etc, zaza?

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## KurdishAryan

> first of all let away Kurdish aryan cause he lives in another world,
> you know well that Kurds are middle easterneast anatolian 
> link among greek armenians syrrians, 
> Now about dienekes uses Xing probably for some reason,
> Xing data are clear of 1 kurdish tribe and you know it,
> they are good data and pure about area, 
> that means that the kurdish you mention as iraqi kurds are clear about 1 sub nation, 
> do you also expect to use cinioglu and karafet? about curds?
> wanted or not iraqi kurds are the first about a new political situation,
> ...


 yeah you maybe.. i said we kurds are eurobean because ;see my first post,read it, see eu websites placed kurdistan in the eu map and kurdish people to european people. if you can accept or not. have a nice day

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## iapetoc

> yeah you maybe.. i said we kurds are eurobean because ;see my first post,read it, see eu websites placed kurdistan in the eu map and kurdish people to european people. if you can accept or not. have a nice day


sorry i forgot, they are in EU and the Russian federation also, and mossul is the capital of europe, 
anything else?
in another post you said that europe do not want kurds cause are muslims now you say other, what is your problem?

off course and some Pakistanis have r1b and R1a they are european, European for you are also some casts and races in India, I don't care.

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## KurdishAryan

> sorry i forgot, they are in EU and the Russian federation also, and mossul is the capital of europe, 
> anything else?
> in another post you said that europe do not want kurds cause are muslims now you say other, what is your problem?
> 
> off course and some Pakistanis have r1b and R1a they are european, European for you are also some casts and races in India, I don't care.


 no ,diyarbakir is capital of kurdistan . if you acePPt or not but kurdistan is unofficial in the eu maP /area . i dont care Pakistanis butt see our kurdish dna tests , like italian /greeks PeoPle. if you have an complaint ,than go here and say it :
http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp

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## iapetoc

> no ,diyarbakir is capital of kurdistan . if you acePPt or not but kurdistan is unofficial in the eu maP /area . i dont care Pakistanis butt see our kurdish dna tests , like italian /greeks PeoPle. if you have an complaint ,than go here and say it :
> http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp



when someone is pointing the moon, some folks look at the finger.

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## Alan

> first of all let away Kurdisharyan cause he lives in another world,
> you know well that Kurds are middle eastern east anatolian 
> link among Laz greek armenians syrrians, Persians and turks (not seljuk, the rest)
> Now about dienekes uses Xing probably for some reason,
> Xing data are clear of 1 kurdish tribe and you know it,
> they are good data and pure about area, 
> that means that the kurdish you mention as iraqi kurds are clear about 1 sub nation, 
> do you also expect to use cinioglu and karafet about curds?
> wanted or not iraqi kurds are the first about a new political situation,
> ...


This Group of Kurds in Xing et al studies were not more "pure" than Kurds of Anatolia. The Study points only out that it was apure kurdish tribe from North Iraq but there are many "pure" kurdish tribes in Anatolia too. Pure simply means that they didnt mixed in recent time but who knows how it was 10-20 centuries ago? 

How ever I am not talking about Cinioglu or karafet because Cinioglu didnt tested specially Kurds. I am talking about the Nasidze data for example.

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## Alan

> sorry i forgot, they are in EU and the Russian federation also, and mossul is the capital of europe, 
> anything else?
> in another post you said that europe do not want kurds cause are muslims now you say other, what is your problem?
> 
> off course and some Pakistanis have r1b and R1a they are european, European for you are also some casts and races in India, I don't care.


Iapotec just ignore him. I still highly doubt that he is Kurd. He could only answer a small and very easy sentence in Kurdish. And he needed over a week for that. Either he is confused or he is doing this out of fun.

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## iapetoc

> This Group of Kurds in Xing et al studies were not more "pure" than Kurds of Anatolia. The Study points only out that it was apure kurdish tribe from North Iraq but there are many "pure" kurdish tribes in Anatolia too. Pure simply means that they didnt mixed in recent time but who knows how it was 10-20 centuries ago? 
> 
> How ever I am not talking about Cinioglu or karafet because Cinioglu didnt tested specially Kurds. I am talking about the Nasidze data for example.



I don't know better communicate with him.

I am sure a reason will be, I don't believe that he has an intense,

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## Goga

> Many Kurds in Anatolia are actually descend from Hurrians(mittanni)-Gutians, Scythians, Cimmerians. While the Kurds from Northwest Iran probably have the same ancestors but also some more like Medes.


Cimmerians? Did these hypothetical folks even ever existed? I know them only from the Hollywood movies, like Conan the Barbarian.

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## iapetoc

> Cimmerians? Did these hypothetical folks even ever existed? I know them only from the Hollywood movies, like Conan the Barbarian.


Hollywood has limited fantasy, except some unique, the rest are poor fantasy,

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## Goga

> Hollywood has limited fantasy, except some unique, the rest are poor fantasy,


But I like it!

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## Alan

> Cimmerians? Did these hypothetical folks even ever existed? I know them only from the Hollywood movies, like Conan the Barbarian.


you never heard about the cimmerians? This is not only a Hollywood myth my friend  :Laughing: 

They were something like a Iranian Group with links to Thracians.

The Cimmerians moved into Anatolia on their way receding from Scythians which also followed them. Many of them stayed in East Anatolia.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

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## Knovas

Very interesting information. It seems this people colonized several parts of Europe, it's quite surprising to find a link in Iberia, the Celts and Germanics. Also mentions their presence around the black sea and Russia, what remembers me about some theories about European origins. They covered so much, then, if it's true, their rol would be crucial in shaping Europeans.

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## julia90

i think i would accept people like Georgians and maybe armenians in the european union, because they look europoid... and do show some similarity with south-eastern european.. i don't know much of kurds, but their territory seems to protend too much into saudi arabia

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## julia90

georgian footballplayers

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## julia90

if this is the west asian look, it looks european, at least like many balkanians people

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## Knovas

They have 75% of West Asian component in average. Of course most of them look European, because the West Asian component is the most closer one to Europe of the non Europeans. Very caucasoid.

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## Goga

> Very interesting information. It seems this people colonized several parts of Europe, it's quite surprising to find a link in Iberia, the Celts and Germanics. Also mentions their presence around the black sea and Russia, what remembers me about some theories about European origins. They covered so much, then, if it's true, their rol would be crucial in shaping Europeans.


That's pure fantasy. I don't know why but many Europeans love to link them to West Asian folks. Maybe they try to associate them to the glorifying West Asian history. But I think that's ridiculous. Most Europeans are just native to Europe and are not West Asians (Aryans).

They claim that Goths are descendants from Guti folks from Kurdistan.
That Anglo-Saxons are descendants of Iranic Scythians.
And Celts are descendants of these mythical Cimmerians, according to many people also Iranic folks. But I doubt they ever existed.
Some folks in Poland even claim that they are descendants of the legendary Medes. The Medes are West Iranic folks that got most credit of all Aryans from the historians.

Here is the wiki link of the list of ancient Iranic folks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

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## Knovas

For this reason I said if it's true, because I never read too much about this. What I found curious and made me think it could be true, is the focus in the Black Sea, and concretely the north side, wich is actual Ukraine (Europe). But it seems there are lots of similar reports, that's the bad thing on Wikipedia, all looks so good and logical, and then you find another posible theorie...the never ending story.

My personal opinion is that the north side of the Black sea could perfectly be an ancestral place for the first Europeans, doesn't matter to call them Cimmerians, Iranic-Scythians, or wherever other name. Of course, it's obvious that when I refer to this people, I'm not refering to West Asians (genetically speaking), since I asume they already became something different, with independence if it's posible to link them to another place located in West Asia and finally established in that point of the Black Sea for a long time.

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## Goga

West Asians are native to West Asia. West Asians are not from somewehere else. And are genetically the same folks as the ancient Iranic folks. These ancient Aryans were West Asian too.

Iranic folks are not from northern parts of Caucasus, but from southern parts of Caucasus. Many people are making this mistake, because they think that Slavic people are descendants of Scythians. Slavic peoples ain't no Scythians, they just assimilated many Scythians. Scythians were Iranic speaking folks.

I think ancient Iranic (Aryan) peoples were j2, g, i2, r* and t folks, like modern native Iranic western Asians (Kurds and western Persians).

Kurds are native to their homeland. Kurds are western Iranic folks. That's why I link them to the ancient western Asian Aryans. I oppose the idea that Kurds have some links with Europeans, because that would weaken their Aryan ancestry!

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## Knovas

According to Dodecad, Kurds have European ancestry. It's less than 40%, but it's detected. I wouldn't give too much importance to this, the rest is almost enterelly West Asian and Southwest Asian. There are a few Kurds tested, who knows if it's posible to find Kurds without any European ancestry, or much lower than the actual samples.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> According to Dodecad, Kurds have European ancestry. It's less than 40%, but it's detected. I wouldn't give too much importance to this, the rest is almost enterelly West Asian and Southwest Asian. There are a few Kurds tested, who knows if it's posible to find Kurds without any European ancestry, or much lower than the actual samples.


40% is pretty high. Higher than Maltese, I believe.

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## Knovas

The real average is 31%. I did not calculate because I just used my eyes (see the population portrait), and failed a little xD.

I don't see the Maltese average, but I think it's higher than 31%. Cypriots score more than 45% for example.

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## Goga

31% !? That's way to HIGH! I believe it is maybe around 5%, maybe less. Like there is maybe 5% of Iranic (Aryan) DNA in native EU population.

IF there is some European DNA in Kurds then I think it's due to some gene flow of European individuals that migrated into Kurdistan and NOT because of mass migration.

But, this is pseudoscience. I don't know how people can calculate such percentages. You can't say somebody is 40, 50, 60 etc. % something. That's impossible and nonsense.

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## Knovas

Sometimes the averages change depending on the type of analysis Dienekes's is doing. K=10 for example shows less European score in average than this one, but I don't think Kurds would get less than 15%.

I don't think it is exagerated. Perhaps taking the Near East as reference, Kurds seem to have substantial European ancestry, but not if we compare with Europe, starting for Cypriots and Greeks.

Why not?

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## sparkey

> Kurds are native to their homeland.


Which is where? It seems to me that Kurds come from a heterogenous background, with much of it traditionally nomadic, and not really anchored to a single homeland like some other groups in the region (like Assyrians and Jews). The Kurds probably have areas that they've lived in for a long time, but it certainly doesn't include the full extent of modern Kurdistan. For example, Kurds didn't even become the dominant ethnic group in Arbil until the Middle Ages (or later? That's when Assyrian dominance decreased), and now it's the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan.

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## KurdishAryan

Edit..............

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## Goga

Dienekes is not a scientist, but an amateur. The true scientist will never burn his fingers with such nonsense.

You can't say somebody is 100% European and somebody is just 75% European. Greeks are 100% European! Because their homeland is in Europe!

Kurds are native to West Asia. They are 100% West Asian. Their DNA is and all their haplogroups are West Asian. Of course genetically Kurds show some resembles with Europeans, because Kurds and Europeans are Homo sapiens! And all Homo sapiens have the same origin!

Haplogroups go beyond continents. Haplogorups are like AIR, they don't know and have any boundaries.

Cypriots and Greeks are native Europeans, but their DNA shows some resembles with Northern Africans and Levantine Arabs. Greeks are more related to Africans & (Levantine) Arabs than to Kurds.

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## Goga

> Which is where? It seems to me that Kurds come from a heterogenous background, with much of it traditionally nomadic, and not really anchored to a single homeland like some other groups in the region (like Assyrians and Jews). The Kurds probably have areas that they've lived in for a long time, but it certainly doesn't include the full extent of modern Kurdistan. For example, Kurds didn't even become the dominant ethnic group in Arbil until the Middle Ages (or later? That's when Assyrian dominance decreased), and now it's the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan.


Kurdistan!

If I were you, i would stop reading Armenian, Assyrian, Arab, Persian and Turkish propaganda sources. These folks try to destroy Kurds and their history...

Arbil (Hewler) was once a capital of Gutium!!!! Before Assyria ever existed. Gutians are some of Kurdish ancestors.

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## Knovas

No Goga. To be a "native European" does not necesarily mean you are 100% European at all effects. Admixture exist, and in Greeks or Cypriots more since they carry quite West Asian with them. Even if you check Basques, not all of them become 100% European, and the same happens with Baltics. Both are the most Europeans genetically speaking, but not all of them get this numbers.

That's how it works. Talk about pure individuals it's almost always unreal.

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## Goga

You don't understand me. Nobody is pure. Greeks and Germans are not pure, but they are 100% European. Kurds aín't no pure folks, but they are 100% West Asian!

Once again, you don't understand me. But it's ok with me.

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## KurdishAryan

> georgian footballplayers


 lol see my first post and these : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbbT0kKPNs

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmC2uWESEM

3. http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ish+aryan&aq=f

and see : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp

ans some pics.. :

form north kurdistan (turkish kurdistan) :

KIDS from diyarbakir, kurdistan 










from southkurdistan (iraqi kurdistan) :











MORE HERE : http://imageshack.us/g/84/aryany.jpg/

and we are never westasian  :Laughing: D , but now kurds live in §middle east" but unofficial in eu area too. see here : 

http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

and : http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp

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## Knovas

But we were talking about genetics, and the reports are not bad, but not perfect. A margin of error it's always posible, although there is no catastrofee at all. If you mean 100% West Asian or 100% European for being living thousands of years in the same place, well, I can understand it.

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## sparkey

> Kurdistan!
> 
> If I were you, i would stop reading Armenian, Assyrian, Arab, Persian and Turkish propaganda sources. These folks try to destroy Kurds and their history...
> 
> Arbil (Hewler) was once a capital of Gutium!!!! Before Assyria ever existed. Gutians are some of Kurdish ancestors.


Well, I suspect that you're right that Gutians are some of the ancestors of the Kurds... in fact, the modern ethnic group with the most Gutian ancestors may well be Kurds. But what's the real history of Arbil as part of Gutium? Wasn't it just part of it briefly ca. 2000 BC? Whereas the Sumerians had it first, then the Akkadians, then the Assyrians, then the Persians... certainly, the city was speaking Syriac when the Timurids destroyed it. After that, the modern Kurdish ethnicity settled, which is why, today, it's such an integral part of Kurdistan. But to call Arbil part of the Kurdish homeland, to me, implies that the Kurds are only an ethnicity that's existed since the Middle Ages (which may be true to some extent).

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## KurdishAryan

see kurdish median embire , 500 bc. or so .. :



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9qesHjkTjU

more: http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...an+Empire&aq=f

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> The real average is 31%. I did not calculate because I just used my eyes (see the population portrait), and failed a little xD.
> 
> I don't see the Maltese average, but I think it's higher than 31%. Cypriots score more than 45% for example.


I think he Maltese are ~ 36%, last time I checked.

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## Cambrius (The Red)

> No Goga. To be a "native European" does not necesarily mean you are 100% European at all effects. Admixture exist, and in Greeks or Cypriots more since they carry quite West Asian with them. Even if you check Basques, not all of them become 100% European, and the same happens with Baltics. Both are the most Europeans genetically speaking, but not all of them get this numbers.
> 
> That's how it works. Talk about pure individuals it's almost always unreal.


Lithuania has the highest Eurogenes European scores (99 + %).

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## Knovas

Some Lithuanians really came from another planet. There is one Dodecad wich I suspect it's from Lithuania, scoring enormous European proportions, with 100% total Europe, and only 3% Southern/Mediterranean. Check DOD655; incredible.

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## Goga

> Well, I suspect that you're right that Gutians are some of the ancestors of the Kurds... in fact, the modern ethnic group with the most Gutian ancestors may well be Kurds. But what's the real history of Arbil as part of Gutium? Wasn't it just part of it briefly ca. 2000 BC? Whereas the Sumerians had it first, then the Akkadians, then the Assyrians, then the Persians... certainly, the city was speaking Syriac when the Timurids destroyed it. After that, the modern Kurdish ethnicity settled, which is why, today, it's such an integral part of Kurdistan. But to call Arbil part of the Kurdish homeland, to me, implies that the Kurds are only an ethnicity that's existed since the Middle Ages (which may be true to some extent).


I don't believe in such provocations. Akkadians, Summerians, Assyrians, Persians, Turks whatever. I've never seen their ancient maps of their hypothetical empires and I don't believe in hypothetical modern maps that were drawn recently by Assyrians, Armenians, Turks, Arabs whoever about their hypothetical ancient empires.

All I know is that Kurds (Iranic folks) founded their cities (from Amed, Hewler, Kirkuk, Mehabad to Kermanshah) many thousands years ago and Kurds (still Iranic folks) do STILL live in their ancient cities thousands years later. The population of Kurdish cities is still a majority of Kurds. And their cities are in West Asia.

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## Alan

> but their territory seems to protend too *much into saudi arabia*


have no oppinion about your other comments but....





?

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## Goga

Somehow I have got the feeling that some Eurocentric folks like to think that the Aryan (or even Indo-European) heritage of Kurds is from Europe (European) and the rest is backwarded Middle-Eastern.
They try to incorporate Aryan history into the European heritage. And try to make Kurds not the real descendants (children) of their Iranic ancestors. It like that they want to incorporate Kurdish history into Europe, but at the same time they don't want anything to do with those 'dirty' backwarded subhuman folks from the Middle-Eastern.

I'm sorry to break your heart, but Kurdish Aryan (Iranic) and Indo-European heritage is West Asian too.

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## Alan

> According to Dodecad, Kurds have European ancestry. It's less than 40%, but it's detected. I wouldn't give too much importance to this, the rest is almost enterelly West Asian and Southwest Asian. There are a few Kurds tested, who knows if it's posible to find Kurds without any European ancestry, or much lower than the actual samples.



Its all depending on what you call "European" and what "West Asian" Genes. Because the "West and South Westasian components are also native to Europe since millennia. The West Asian component more than the Southwest Asian. Also we can highly doubt that the "Mediterranean" component evolved in Europe or is only native to this Region. It all depends on what we call "European" and what "West Asian" However the main differences between West Asians and Europeans are not the components but the frequency of components. In Europe you have more of the East/Westeuropean while in West Asia more of the West Asian component .

The Xing et al (Iraqi) Kurds have on average this components. I will only list the components which have at least 1%

41,8% West Asian
21,5% Mediterranean
14,7% Southwest Asian
10,3% East/Westeuropean
9,0% South Asian (Ani type)
1.0% Northeast Asian

And we need to take in account that this is the most Southern part of kurdish areas where Kurds border Iraqi Arabs.




> Somehow I have got the feeling that some Eurocentric folks like to think that the Aryan (or even Indo-European) heritage of Kurds is from Europe (European) and the rest is backwarded Middle-Eastern.
> They try to incorporate Aryan history into the European heritage. And try to make Kurds not the real descendants (children) of their Iranic ancestors. It like that they want to incorporate Kurdish history into Europe, but at the same time they don't want anything to do with those 'dirty' backwarded subhuman folks from the Middle-Eastern.


actually to be precise we can assume that Indo Europeans belonged mainly to West Asian and North European.

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## Knovas

Sorry Goga, but I think you are exaggerating. Europeans have Middle Eastern ancestry and Kurds have European ancestry, ¿where do you see the problem?. What it cares is the largest component genetically speaking, the history, and the way a population feels. 

Kurds are alright, they're still unique.

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## Alan

> (like Assyrians and Jews).


Really bad examples imo. Jews are known to have lived almost everywhere in the Near East the same with Assyrians which originated in what is today Jordania and conquered parts of Hurrian lands. However now they are extinct. No one can claim about his folks to be "pure" and having only one ancestor. Every nation we know today have at least 2 or 3 ancestors from ancient times.

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## sparkey

> have no oppinion about your other comments but....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


For anyone curious, that map is from Ralph Peters, shown here and described here. I suppose it's a decent map to approximate the extent of certain minorities, although it has some important inaccuracies (no Assyrians, Lebanon annexing the Alawites for no apparent reason, etc.). It's quite generous to the Kurds but yeah, there's no way Kurdistan stretches to Saudi Arabia.

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## Goga

> Sorry Goga, but I think you are exaggerating. Europeans have Middle Eastern ancestry and Kurds have European ancestry, ¿where do you see the problem?. What it cares is the largest component genetically speaking, the history, and the way a population feels. 
> 
> Kurds are alright, they're still unique.


Kurds are a missing link between political West and East, but in general they are West Asian because the 'birthplace' of their ethnicity is in West Asia.

All Homo sapien ethnicities are cool and deserve respect, dignity and space to be free no matter they are from Africa or China.

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## Alan

> Well, I suspect that you're right that Gutians are some of the ancestors of the Kurds... in fact, the modern ethnic group with the most Gutian ancestors may well be Kurds. But what's the real history of Arbil as part of Gutium? Wasn't it just part of it briefly ca. 2000 BC? Whereas the Sumerians had it first, then the Akkadians, then the Assyrians, then the Persians... certainly,


to be precise the first People living in Arbil were the Hurrian which called this Region Urbilium. Later the Gutians build the citadel what is some kind of "Kurgan" it seems. And THAN the Assyrians came and renamed it to Arbela. The Land belongs to the People who live there since centuries. So Kurds and the today minority of Aramaic/Neo Assyrian People which exist there.

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## sparkey

> Really bad examples imo. Jews are known to have lived almost everywhere in the Near East the same with Assyrians which originated in what is today Jordania and conquered parts of Hurrian lands. However now they are extinct. No one can claim about his folks to be "pure" and having only one ancestor. Every nation we know today have at least 2 or 3 ancestors from ancient times.


You're right to a large degree... there are no "pure" descendants of the ancient Jews or ancient Assyrians (although modern Jews and Assyrians, respectively, probably have the highest percentage of ancestors who were members of those ancient ethnicities). Assyrians certainly have a lot of Aramaean ancestors, for example, especially those living in Syria (although "Syrian Arabs" may have them beat when it comes to direct descent, I'm not sure). But the point was that they both have conscious homelands that they've anchored themselves to... Israel for the Jews and the "Assyrian Triangle" for the Assyrians.

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## julia90

i think the west asian look, looks perfectly european (south eastern)...

and the men seem very good looking...

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## Goga

> to be precise the first People living in Arbil were the Hurrian which called this Region Urbilium. Later the Gutians build the citadel what is some kind of "Kurgan" it seems. And THAN the Assyrians came and renamed it to Arbela. The Land belongs to the People who live there since centuries. So Kurds and the today minority of Aramaic/Neo Assyrian People which exist there.


Some people believe Gutians were Hurrians other believe they were Iranic, but what do you mean with Kurgan?

I know a villain from a Hollywood movie from 1986 Highlander and his name was Kurgan (and he was from Kurgan)...

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## Alan

> Some people believe Gutians were Hurrians other believe they were Iranic, but what do you mean with Kurgan?
> 
> I know a villain from a Hollywood movie from 1986 Highlander and his name was Kurgan...


Kurgans were anciant Indo European "graves". I believe that the name Kurd originated from the Gutians. And that they were something like one of the first ancient Indo Europeans which also showed links to Caucasian Groups.

structure of Kurgans





and the citadel of arbil.




To me it seems like the Citadel of Arbil first was a Kurgan later formed into a castle.

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## Goga

> Kurgans were anciant Indo European "graves". I believe that the name Kurd originated from the Gutians. And that they were something like one of the first ancient Indo Europeans which also showed links to Caucasian Groups.


Ancient Kurgan "graves" in Eastern Europe are Iranic (Scytho-Sarmatian). But Eastern Europe is populated by Slavic folks. I know that Slavic tribes assimilated many Iranic folks. And Iranic peoples live in West Asia. This could be an indication that the migration was from south into north.

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## Alan

> Ancient Kurgan "graves" in Eastern Europe are Iranic (Scytho-Sarmatian). But Eastern Europe is populated by Slavic folks. I know that Slavic tribes assimilated many Iranic folks. And Iranic peoples live in West Asia. This could be an indication that the migration was from south into north.


possible. But it rather was a migration from Caucasus to North and those mixed up with native Hunter Groups and the Indo Europeans which conquered most parts of North Europe belonged to this new formed People.

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## Goga

> To me it seems like the Citadel of Arbil first was a Kurgan later formed into a castle.


This is hypothetical again. It could also be that high due to cumulative amount of garbage. And that hill has been populated non-stop for maybe 8000 years, so maybe it is that high because of garbage.

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## iapetoc

> Which is where? It seems to me that Kurds come from a heterogenous background, with much of it traditionally nomadic, and not really anchored to a single homeland like some other groups in the region (like Assyrians and Jews). The Kurds probably have areas that they've lived in for a long time, but it certainly doesn't include the full extent of modern Kurdistan. For example, Kurds didn't even become the dominant ethnic group in Arbil until the Middle Ages (or later? That's when Assyrian dominance decreased), and now it's the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan.


I agree, we find them from Phrygia Gordium to Arabic gulf, and North Iran, 
that means movable inside limits, followinf something, their breeding stock or moving army tribe, 
I believe the second, we find them also in ancient Greek literature doing the same, probably they were a specialized army that learned a kind of war trick, 
I believe they were a hammer of Kings or Satraps in area and they mixed when a new 'army' tribe connects with them,
from 1900 till today we see the same hit and hide that did in Xenophon, and hit and hide even among them according who foreigner chief like, 
I believe that kurds comes from an ancient nation somewhere middle east and Iran that created something, a big city or a culture, lost it, and learn to live defending in nomadic form, while in many times they served as army chieftain to some kings, and they accepted other war tribes among them like Skudra- skudet. 
cimmerians is still a mystery cause are connected with Thracians, which are connected to gothic, slavic, para Greek, and Iranian,

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## iapetoc

> Dienekes is not a scientist, but an amateur. The true scientist will never burn his fingers with such nonsense.
> 
> You can't say somebody is 100% European and somebody is just 75% European. Greeks are 100% European! Because their homeland is in Europe!
> 
> Kurds are native to West Asia. They are 100% West Asian. Their DNA is and all their haplogroups are West Asian. Of course genetically Kurds show some resembles with Europeans, because Kurds and Europeans are Homo sapiens! And all Homo sapiens have the same origin!
> 
> Haplogroups go beyond continents. Haplogorups are like AIR, they don't know and have any boundaries.
> 
> Cypriots and Greeks are native Europeans, but their DNA shows some resembles with Northern Africans and Levantine Arabs. Greeks are more related to Africans & (Levantine) Arabs than to Kurds.


are you nuts? where do you find that? 
greeks = arabs? 

*I believe you are a true amateur, 

*and what connection you find with Africans?

just say what ever comes to your head??????

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## Alan

> This is hypothetical again. It could also be that high due to cumulative amount of garbage. And that hill has been populated non-stop for maybe 8000 years, so maybe it is that high because of garbage.


Garbage *in* a hill? Sorry but what do you mean exactly? I can´t imagine that such a structure is due Garbage 

my dear friend I know that you dont like to see any link of Kurds with Europe but you do this in such a way that it sometimes seem like you are the extreme opposite of the User "KurdishAryan".

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## KurdishAryan

*Goga* 
,we are not westasian , if you can accept ot not but ,we are eurobean or Proto-Indo-Europeans see here ;
http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

and dou you think all eurobeans are like northern eurobeans (germans,english ,schwedish etc.) no..! see italian .sPanish .Portugal*..*..greeks-*Peo**Ple*, they are like kurds ,, so with "blue eyes and blond hair" AND with "brown eyes and black hair" but see northern euro*P*eans the germans , so ican say .. 90 % of germans/swedish /english are blond.. so like i said the ydna tests of kurds shows it too.. kurds are not like *arab* *and turkish mongolian Peo**Ple* . 

and we are still part of europe 
see: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

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## Alan

> I agree, we find them from Phrygia Gordium to Arabic gulf, and North Iran, 
> that means movable inside limits,


Where do you find Kurds in the Arabic Gulf? My dear friend just because you could find Kurds all the way from Greece to Iran, this doesen´t mean they are simply a collective tribe for all warriors living in that area. If this is a indication for you that Kurds were only a "warrior caste" than what should we thing about the Greeks who were found all the way down to India? People move this is nothing unusual. But this doesent mean that they had no "core" tribe. I think Kurds were simply Gutians which absorbed time after time folks like, Hurrians-Mitanni, Scythians, Cimmerians, Medes, Balkanic tribes and also adopted languages of some of this People. 

Note the Gutians were also known as Warriors.






> are you nuts? where do you find that? 
> greeks = arabs? 
> 
> *I believe you are a true amateur, 
> 
> *and what connection you find with Africans?
> 
> just say what ever comes to your head??????


He wrote "Levantine Arabs". He means the Lebanese.

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## Goga

> are you nuts? where do you find that? 
> greeks = arabs? 
> 
> *I believe you are a true amateur,* 
> 
> and what connection you find with Africans?


Yes. I'm a mateur. But why should I hate Greeks?

and what connection I find with Africans? Is this a joke? CLEOPATRA maybe? Greeks and northern Africans always worked and lived together. Sea connected both folks. They traded goods and food with each other for thousand of years.

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## Alan

People calm down I think there is only a misunderstanding.

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## Goga

> *Goga* 
> ,we are not westasian , if you can accept ot not but ,we are eurobean or Proto-Indo-Europeans see here ;
> http://www.eurominority.eu/version/e...alpha-list.asp
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans
> 
> and dou you think all eurobeans are like northern eurobeans (germans,english ,schwedish etc.) no..! see italian .sPanish .Portugal*..*..greeks-*Peo**Ple*, they are like kurds ,, so with "blue eyes and blond hair" AND with "brown eyes and black hair" but see northern euro*P*eans the germans , so ican say .. 90 % of germans/swedish /english are blond.. so like i said the ydna tests of kurds shows it too.. kurds are not like *arab* *and turkish mongolian Peo**Ple* . 
> 
> and we are still part of europe 
> see: http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg


Kurds are West Asian. I think you are a true Kurd, because Kurds don't like to give up ... :)

Arabs and other Semites are not from West Asia, but from SOUTH-west Asia, and Turks are from CENTRAL Asia.

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## Knovas

Turks from Central Asia? sorry but I don't think so: 41.1% West Asian, 28.3% Mediterranean, 8.7% Southwest Asian, 7.2% West European, 5.9% East European...imposible.

However, Turks are diverse...some of them going to the east should show more East Asian admixture, but not as high to say this, I don't think so.

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## Goga

> Turks from Central Asia? sorry but I don't think so: 41.1% West Asian, 28.3% Mediterranean, 8.7% Southwest Asian, 7.2% West European, 5.9% East European...imposible.
> 
> However, Turks are diverse...some of them going to the east should show more East Asian admixture, but not as high to say this, I don't think so.


Those percentages are nonsense. Sure modern Turks are West Asian nowadays, because they have been living in West Asia for almost 1000 years. They are nowadays a new different ethnicity than 1000 years ago. And the 'birthplace' of their new ethnicity is West Turkey. They are mixed with Greeks, Arabs, Armenians, Iranians and Kurds.

But their language is from Central Asia. The original Turkic folks migrated from Central Asia into West Asia and Europe.

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## KurdishAryan

WE ARE NOT WEST ASIAN! lol yes , we live now in so called "middle east" but in eu area too . ;
http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

lol and we have eurobean dna s too. END . : )

and a lot of turks in turkey married balkic PeoPle like bosnians ,albanians or like laz PeoPle so they have now eurobean dna s . : D thats really true. 






> The original Turkic folks migrated from Central Asia into West Asia and Europe.


yes they are from mongolia .

and true (mongolians) turks are like ilhan mansiz :



or like albarslan :




and alan .you are really not okay.

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## iapetoc

> Where do you find Kurds in the Arabic Gulf? My dear friend just because you could find Kurds all the way from Greece to Iran, this doesen´t mean they are simply a collective tribe for all warriors living in that area. If this is a indication for you that Kurds were only a "warrior caste" than what should we thing about the Greeks who were found all the way down to India? People move this is nothing unusual. But this doesent mean that they had no "core" tribe. I think Kurds were simply Gutians which absorbed time after time folks like, Hurrians-Mitanni, Scythians, Cimmerians, Medes, Balkanic tribes and also adopted languages of some of this People. 
> 
> Note the Gutians were also known as Warriors.
> 
> He wrote "Levantine Arabs". He means the Lebanese.



No i don't think Kurds adopted language, but others adopted and unite with with Kurds, 
like in rest of world, 

alternate name of Kurds is Gorduanes, you know it, 
all Iranian languages are connected with Fars (Farsi) 
in case of Kurdish language many developed theories, 
the most valuable is the 2
1 the Kurdish language is Parthian that stepped in Medean substructrum
2 the Kurdish language is a Georgian Iranian language that has nothing to do with Avestan and is link to Old Iranic, as spoken by Sassanides, (a Irano-scythian or Irano-Slavic Language) 

the case of Gorduanes shows what I said, and if we connect with 1nd Linguistic theory gives a result that I believe is true,
Kurds are the Old Carduch Καρδουχοι which with time became phatrias of warrior caste, 
Alan you know that, Zaratustra entered much later and is connected with that you read in Dienekes, 
besides Linguistic theories link the Kurdish with North West Iran (exactly where Dienekes puts them)

On the other hand the 2nd theory which connects them with Balkans and Georgia gives words we find in Skudra like Gulla = lake 
Surdi = warriors, guardians etc, these words are connected with a Thraco origin, but are connected with Iranic, 

the 3rd theory which is an ancient greek connects Summerians with Subaru Su= Anatolian water, But places Qurtie in mountains around Gulla, Qurtie as word exist in Balto-slavic also and in Greek Qurtiee means either dancers, either goat breeders, 
Alan you know exactly about the dances I speak about,
Kurites, choron Qurtie

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## iapetoc

> Yes. I'm a mateur. But why should I hate Greeks?
> 
> and what connection I find with Africans? Is this a joke? CLEOPATRA maybe? Greeks and northern Africans always worked and lived together. Sea connected both folks. They traded goods and food with each other for thousand of years.


Cleopatra daughter of Ptolemaios, then for you Makedonians are African, Nothing more, nayvbe Alexander came from Libya to Persia for you, and Mithridates was not Iranian but Arab from Yemen.

YOU ARE NOT AN AMATEUR, YOU ARE ΕΠΙ ΠΑΝΤΟΣ ΣΤΗΤΟΥ. (scientist)

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## Goga

> Garbage *in* a hill? Sorry but what do you mean exactly? I can´t imagine that such a structure is due Garbage 
> 
> my dear friend I know that you dont like to see any link of Kurds with Europe but you do this in such a way that it sometimes seem like you are the extreme opposite of the User "KurdishAryan".


Citadel of Arbil and so it's hill is much older than 'graves' in Kurgan!

(catacomb-grave) Burials in Kurgan are from 2400 BC. Kurdish 'hill' is at least 8000 years old.

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## iapetoc

> Those percentages are nonsense. Sure modern Turks are West Asian nowadays, because they have been living in West Asia for almost 1000 years. They are nowadays a new different ethnicity than 1000 years ago. And the 'birthplace' of their new ethnicity is West Turkey. They are mixed with Greeks, Arabs, Armenians, Iranians and Kurds.
> 
> But their language is from Central Asia. The original Turkic folks migrated from Central Asia into West Asia and Europe.



You are still a science, 
the only central asian were the seljuk not even 200 000 people, 80 000 by a some, who went to area taursus = Tursus= Turc 
another is Hath Uruk ->Turk (=uruk people)
the Ottoman were either Alan either dakh, 
Turkish population and language is also south Minor asian, and is Connected with Hattian Akkadian and Turkmen 
most of Turks are Byzantines who change religion and language, rejecting both Greek and Iranian and adopting the old and borrowed missing words from Seljuk and Koyonlu

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## Goga

The earliest Kurgans appeared during the 4th millennium BC among the Copper Age people of the *Caucasus*, and soon afterwards in the south Russian steppe and the Ukraine.

http://www.archaeologywordsmith.com/...d&terms=Kurgan


Citadel of Arbil and so it's hill is much older than the whole Kurgan nonsense, outdates for at least 2000 years...

I don't know why you're still trying to connect Kurd folks with Europeans?

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## Goga

> You are still a science, 
> the only central asian were the seljuk not even 200 000 people, who went to area taursus = Tursus= Turc or Hath Uruk ->Turk
> the Ottoman were either Alan either dakh, 
> Turkish population and language is also south Minor asian, and is Connected with Hatian Akkadian and Turkmen 
> most of Turks are Byzantines who change religion and language, rejecting both Greek and Iranian and adopting the old and missing words from Seljuk and Koyonlu


Do you live on the other planet?

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## iapetoc

> Do you live on the other planet?



Nope you are, just search Linguistic, and Dna all speak the same, 
and if you discover the world today, that doesn't mean it did not existed,

search the Uruk language, and the hatti language

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## Goga

Same (almost Hollywoodian) fantasy as Cimmerians or Kurgan...

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## Alan

> alternate name of Kurds is Gorduanes, you know it,


I know and historic sources show us that beside Scythians, also Gutians existed in Gorduene.




> all Iranian languages are connected with Fars (Farsi)



actually Farsi is connected with all other Iranian languages. Farsi is the youngest Iranian language out of all.




> Avestan and is link to Old Iranic, as spoken by Sassanides,


Sassanids didnt spoke Avestan or Old Iranic. Sassanid language belonged to middle Iranic period.





> besides Linguistic theories link the Kurdish with North West Iran (exactly where Dienekes puts them)


Your mixing things up. Kurdish is a Northwest Iranic(Iranian) language. What simply means a Iranic language spoken in the Northwestern parts of Iranic inhabitant areas and has nothing, really nothing to do with the recent borders of the state Iran. And also this Northwest classification is outdated recenty linguists use rather this system.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets...-languages.jpg

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## Alan

> The earliest Kurgans appeared during the 4th millennium BC among the Copper Age people of the *Caucasus*, and soon afterwards in the south Russian steppe and the Ukraine.
> 
> http://www.archaeologywordsmith.com/...d&terms=Kurgan
> 
> 
> Citadel of Arbil and so it's hill is much older than the whole Kurgan nonsense, outdates for at least 2000 years...
> 
> I don't know why you're still trying to connect Kurd folks with Europeans?



are you ok? Where did I wrote that the ancestors of Kurds came from Europe just because I assumed that the citadel was a Kurgan? I wrote the Indo Europeans probably moved into Russia I didnt wrote they came from Europe.

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## Goga

> are you ok? Where did I wrote that the ancestors of Kurds came from Europe just because I assumed that the citadel was a Kurgan? I wrote the Indo Europeans probably moved into Russia I didnt wrote they came from Europe.


Ok, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. I think you're right.

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## iapetoc

> Same (almost Hollywoodian) fantasy as Cimmerians or Kurgan...



Nope, fact, a true, and you know it, 
don't hide behind finger, 
I don't want to say a lie or to deny truth cause someone is making claimings,
No matter what I want or I like, Truth is above all. searching truth, helps people be better,
I am not an agent of nobody, and I will tell a lie to satisfy my ears, cause a lie brings another,
when you search about Hattians and Uruk then we speak again about the Non IE languages in west Asia,

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## Goga

> Nope, fact, a true, and you know it, 
> don't hide behind finger, 
> I don't want to say a lie or to deny truth cause someone is making claimings,
> No matter what I want or I like, Truth is above all. searching truth, helps people be better,
> I am not an agent of nobody, and I will tell a lie to satisfy my ears, cause a lie brings another,
> when you search about Hattians and Uruk then we speak again about the Non IE languages in west Asia,


Hattians lived in Central Anatolia and were related to some folks in Caucasus.

Turkish and languages in Caucasus are like Chinese and African!


"The roots of Turkish can be traced to Central Asia, with the first known written records dating back nearly 1,300 years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language


Fantasy dream world or the other planet? Where do you live?

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## iapetoc

[QUOTE=Goga;375713]Hattians lived in Central Anatolia and were related to some folks in Caucasus.

Turkish and languages in Caucasus are like Chinese and African!


"The roots of Turkish can be traced to Central Asia, with the first known written records dating back nearly 1,300 years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language


just bullshit, 1 word says it all Orkhon, 
that myth is propaganda created by some, to connect the pecheneges and the germans and the finnish with the Turks, the turks of south and the Turks of North, because most of them are anatolians, who change religion and language, so they wanted to create Panturkism,

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## iapetoc

> I know and historic sources show us that beside Scythians, also Gutians existed in Gorduene.
> 
> 
> actually Farsi is connected with all other Iranian languages. Farsi is the youngest Iranian language out of all.
> 
> Sassanids didnt spoke Avestan or Old Iranic. Sassanid language belonged to middle Iranic period.
> 
> 
> Your mixing things up. Kurdish is a Northwest Iranic(Iranian) language. What simply means a Iranic language spoken in the Northwestern parts of Iranic inhabitant areas and has nothing, really nothing to do with the recent borders of the state Iran. And also this Northwest classification is outdated recenty linguists use rather this system.
> ...


also show Kurds to Gordium Phrygia at 700 BC about

NO by Farsi I do not mean modern Farsi, but the reconstructed from Linguistic possible proto Iranian, 
sory I didn't make make my shelf clear, I mean the Fars area where is area of aryan turning to Iranic




> 2 the Kurdish language is a Georgian Iranian language that has nothing to do with Avestan and is link to Old Iranic, as spoken by Sassanides, (a Irano-scythian or Irano-Slavic Language)


*Next time watch carefully what I write*, and don;t tell me about middle and modern,
Sassanids are the first who input Scythean and Alan in language at least as Franca words,

*that I Have wrote, with that you copy is totally Different,* 
I make mistakes many times as Human, But I know what I am writing, At least I don't try to put other words in other mouth,
I say clearly, that sassanides input scythian or Alanic to old Iranic, creating a new form, 
*I dont say avestan and old Iranic were spoken by sassanides,* 

plz be carefull
I say kurdish language , as spoken by zazzanides, I mean kurdish modern is connected with sassanides, 
the one you call middle

----------


## Alan

> also show Kurds to Gordium Phrygia at 700 BC about
> 
> NO by Farsi I do not mean modern Farsi, but the reconstructed from Linguistic possible proto Iranian, 
> sory I didn't make make my shelf clear, I mean the Fars area where is area of aryan turning to Iranic


I know what you mean but still the Region Fars is not were Aryan tribes turned into Iranian. It is rather the Northern Zagroß area, south of the lake Urmiya. The Persians originally belonged to the Medes and were some kind of undergroup whom left a area around Urmiya which was called "Parsua" (the Word Persian comes from this) and moved South. The area we know today as Fars is simply named after the tribe and not the other way around.






> Next time watch carefully what I write, and don;t tell me about middle and modern,
> Sassanids are the first who input Scythean and Alan in language at least as Franca words,
> 
> *that I Have wrote, with that you copy is totally Different,* 
> I make mistakes many times as Human, But I know what I am writing, At least I don't try to put other words in other mouth,
> I say clearly, that sassanides input scythian or Alanic to old Iranic, creating a new form, 
> *I dont say avestan and old Iranic were spoken by sassanides,* 
> 
> plz be carefull
> ...


I know that every human makes mistakes and this is no problem but this is why other people are there to show you your mistakes this is normal. 

You are making a simple failure you think the Sassanides were Kurds just because the Word Sassa sounds similar to Zaza but I have to tell you Zaza and Sassa have nothing to do with each other. it is simply a coincidence. The name Zaza which describes a Kurdish tribe is very recent and new. And only used by outsiders. The Zaza never called themselves "Zaza" Their real name is Dimli or Kirmanc/Kird.

However it is true and we can assume, that Kurds also played a role in the Sassanid Empire. Ardashir the King was a half Kurd according to Sources and also the capital of Sassanids was located in the most Southeastern corner of Kurdistan but they had nothing to do with the Zaza Kurds living far away in Northwest.

----------


## iapetoc

> I know what you mean but still the Region Fars is not were Aryan tribes turned into Iranian. It is rather the Northern Zagroß area, south of the lake Urmiya. The Persians originally belonged to the Medes and were some kind of undergroup whom left a area around Urmiya which was called "Parsua" (the Word Persian comes from this) and moved South. The area we know today as Fars is simply named after the tribe and not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that every human makes mistakes and this is no problem but this is why other people are there to show you your mistakes this is normal. 
> 
> You are making a simple failure you think the Sassanides were Kurds just because the Word Sassa sounds similar to Zaza but I have to tell you Zaza and Sassa have nothing to do with each other. it is simply a coincidence. The name Zaza which describes a Kurdish tribe is very recent and new. And only used by outsiders. The Zaza never called themselves "Zaza" Their real name is Dimli or Kirmanc/Kird.
> ...



Nope I am not telling that Sassanides were Kurds, 
I say that Kurdish is Connected with the language of Sassanides, a pre Arab Irano-scythian, not Pahlavi, not the language of Gethas,

----------


## KurdishAryan

*Goga if you can accebt it or not ,but kurds are* *part of europe*  ,see y-dna tests,too . : ) 1 question to you ; do you really think that all europeans are the same @looking lol northern europe is different(england,germany,sweden etc,so they are only blond ..) than southern europe ; portugal,spain,,italia ..greece all that have almost same dns tests like kurds. 

and see here :)) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#G...c_distribution

----------


## Goga

> *Goga if you can accebt it or not ,but kurds are* *part of europe* ,see y-dna tests,too . : ) 1 question to you ; do you really think that all europeans are the same @looking lol northern europe is different(england,germany,sweden etc,so they are only blond ..) than southern europe ; portugal,spain,,italia ..greece all that have almost same dns tests like kurds. 
> 
> and see here :)) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#G...c_distribution


you're a funny fella.

Just an example. When Kurdistan will be impendent I think it will be part of AFC, that means Kurdistan will play against Iran and Iraq during the first FIFA world cup qualification matches and not against Armenian or Azerbaijan, France or England.
On the other side, some West Asian (ex Soviet) countries like Georgia, Armenian and Azerbaijan are somehow part of Europe. Just think about soccer or Eurovision Song Contest.
It's is possible that North Kurdistan will play against Turkey and Turkey is playing against the European nations.
So to be honest, I'm a little bit confused. It's a strange world.

----------


## Alan

> you're a funny fella.
> 
> Just an example. When Kurdistan will be impendent I think it will be part of AFC, that means Kurdistan will play against Iran and Iraq during the first FIFA world cup qualification matches and not against Armenian or Azerbaijan, France or England.
> On the other side, some West Asian (ex Soviet) countries like Georgia, Armenian and Azerbaijan are somehow part of Europe. Just think about soccer or Eurovision Song Contest.
> It's is possible that North Kurdistan will play against Turkey and Turkey is playing against the European nations.
> So to be honest, I'm a little bit confused. It's a strange world.



Europe is a geopolitical Term. When Kurds really did want to play in Uefa instead AFC than they could.

----------


## Goga

> Europe is a geopolitical Term. When Kurds really did want to play in Uefa instead AFC than they could.


Yes, but the fact is that Pakistan or China can't play in uefa. Or maybe they can?

I would rather play against Syria, Iran or Iraq than again European countries. Much easier opponents to beat, so much more chance to enter the main tournament. I still don't understand what Turkey is doing in UEFA!

They must split AFC into East and West AFC. It's ridiculous to see Japan or Korea playing against Yemen or Oman.

----------


## KurdishAryan

> Yes, but the fact is that Pakistan or China can't play in uefa. Or maybe they can?
> 
> I would rather play against Syria, Iran or Iraq than again European countries. Much easier opponents to beat, so much more chance to enter the main tournament. I still don't understand what Turkey is doing in UEFA!
> 
> They must split AFC into East and West AFC. It's ridiculous to see Japan or Korea playing against Yemen or Oman.





> you're a funny fella.
> 
> Just an example. When Kurdistan will be impendent I think it will be part of AFC, that means Kurdistan will play against Iran and Iraq during the first FIFA world cup qualification matches and not against Armenian or Azerbaijan, France or England.
> On the other side, some West Asian (ex Soviet) countries like Georgia, Armenian and Azerbaijan are somehow part of Europe. Just think about soccer or Eurovision Song Contest.
> It's is possible that North Kurdistan will play against Turkey and Turkey is playing against the European nations.
> So to be honest, I'm a little bit confused. It's a strange world.


 *lol you kurdish* * hater* or *more islam hater!* *, dont worry if kurdistan will be independent (so in 2-5 years) than we ll play in UEFA . dont worry see all topic until end posted enough infos that kurds are part of europe so as people here : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbbT0kKPNs and as region ,too here :
http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

do you really think that all europeans are the same @looking lol northern europe is different(england,germany,sweden etc,so they are only blond ..) than southern europe ; portugal,spain,,italia ..greece all that have almost same dns tests like kurds. 

And see kasachstan and israel ,even these true asian countriys play in UEFA looooool. and if our state is independent ,then i will do all things so to take kurdistan national team in UEFA . i wll* *apply for that* *. lol ,and i would never think that kurdistan plays against iran or iraq ,these are our enemys , so dont worry kurdistan will be part of UEFA ,too .And i understand now why you cant acce**p**t as* *part of euro**pe and why you* * try to show kurds as westasian ,so all that because of Islam . and have a nice day. : )),

*


> When Kurds really did want to play in Uefa instead AFC than they could.


*Yeah Alan .*

----------


## Alan

> Yes, but the fact is that Pakistan or China can't play in uefa. Or maybe they can?
> 
> I would rather play against Syria, Iran or Iraq than again European countries. Much easier opponents to beat, so much more chance to enter the main tournament. I still don't understand what Turkey is doing in UEFA!
> 
> They must split AFC into East and West AFC. It's ridiculous to see Japan or Korea playing against Yemen or Oman.


well to be serious, they should rather play in the Ueafa. It doesent matter if they have got more chances to get into World Cup. What matters is, that the Ueafa is much more fun and a bigger challenge. And also do never forget that there are MANY football players in Europe which are of kurdish origin and very proud. I myself know two from Germany and Swiss.

Deniz Naki plays in Germany U teams.



Another is Eren Derdiyok



There is no Reason that we have to hide our selves. Many as "Turkish" known youngsters in German leagues are Kurds

----------


## archaiocapilos

> Turkish population and language is also south Minor asian, and is Connected with Hattian Akkadian and Turkmen 
> most of Turks are Byzantines who change religion and language, rejecting both Greek and Iranian and adopting the old and borrowed missing words from Seljuk and Koyonlu


Turkish language has no relation with Hattian (noone knows where to classify Hattian) or Akkadian (it was a Semitic language). Turkmens speak a west Turkish language close to modern Turkish I think...

----------


## Goga

> *lol you kurdish* *hater* or *more islam hater!* *,*
> 
> *And see kasachstan and israel ,even these true asian countriys play in UEFA looooool.*


I'm a Kurd.

And yes you're right about Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan is not only a Muslim country, but also a Central Asian Turkish one...

----------


## Goga

> There is no Reason that we have to hide our selves. Many as "Turkish" known youngsters in German leagues are Kurds


 Yes I do consider that as a betrayal of your race and nation if some folks 'hide' their origin. Such folks aren't even worth to be talked about.


I think it's more fun if Kurds will play against Syrians or Iranians and beat them. And against Spain or Germany they can play later in the main tournament...

----------


## Alan

> Yes I do consider that as a betrayal of your race and nation if some folks 'hide' their origin. Such folks aren't even worth to be talked about.
> 
> 
> I think it's more fun if Kurds will play against Syrians or Iranians and beat them. And against Spain or Germany they can play later in the main tournament...


Bo you got me wrong. No one of them is hiding is origin. Eren Derdiyok mentioned many times that he is a Kurd.

And Deniz Naki even showed this by a tattoo which he commented like this, "The tattoo stands for the region where my parents are from. I am a Kurd and want to say to my People, be proud of what you are.

His arm tattoo.

----------


## Goga

> Bo you got me wrong. No one of them is hiding is origin. Eren Derdiyok mentioned many times that he is a Kurd.


No, I'm talking about Kurds that hide their roots in general. Like many shop owners or greengrocers in Europe, only to have more Turkish and Arabic customers. Or some politicians in Turkey. For money they sell everything.

Or self hating Kurds that say they are European and not West Asian, same sh*t...

----------


## KurdishAryan

> I'm a Kurd.
> 
> And yes you're right about Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan is not only a Muslim country, but also a Central Asian Turkish one...


 lol you cant be a kurd and can yu speak kurdish ? and then if yes come on we test it and dont make us kurds here as worse !

and kurdistan is part of europe and 
http://www.eurominority.eu/images/po...ions-grand.jpg

kurds have enough european dna s .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbbT0kKPNs

*kurdistan national team will play in UEFA .dont worry!


lol see this one:

"Kurdistan avisiert Aufnahme in FIFA und UEFA "
(Kurdistan* *advised for UEFA-admission)*

http://www.fussball-forum.de/viewtop...=17956&start=0

and alan , mesut ozil is half kurdish . mother of ozil is kurdish .

see ; eren derdiyok he is great soccer ; 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Awf...eature=related
*
and kurdistan national football teams plays already against eurobean teams ;* 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLELT...eature=related
---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVCAm...eature=related

and kurdistan will host the viva world cub 2012 ,and catalonia (almost all *players of s**panish national football team)* will *play ,too . :

*http://www.kurdishglobe.net/display-...E403B1151CD3CC

----------


## Humanist

I am not going to reply to some of the patently false statements made about my people in this thread. I would hope folks would refer to the genetic data, and let it speak for itself. 

However, I will address the suggestion that we are principally Jordanian. This is, I suppose, a reference to the old blood group data dendrogram by Cavalli-Sforza published many years ago. As you all know, we have come very far since that time, in regard to population genetic analyses. 

Some data I came across last week, regarding Assyrian Y-DNA. It also, for those interested, covers Yezidi Y-DNA:




> ‎[T]he Semitic populations (Assyrians and Syrians) are very distinct from each other according to both axes. This difference supported also by other methods of comparison points out the weak genetic affinity between the two populations with different historical destinies.
> 
> When interpreting genetic results we need to take into account historical and archaeological data (e.g., in case of Assyrians and Syrians, who are Semitic speaking populations with different historical backgrounds).




```
n=x        44      56    215    189      140     90    196     106       72       40     179     106
hgx      ARA     IRN     KRB    NRT      SNK    WST     YZD     ASR     SRN      AZR     TRK    GEO
hg1	0.23	0.32	0.43	0.22	0.40	0.22	0.28	0.42	0.10	0.08	0.18	0.10
hg2	0.18	0.07	0.12	0.20	0.08	0.21	0.05	0.01	0.04	0.40	0.44	0.48
hg3	0.00	0.02	0.06	0.04	0.09	0.03	0.02	0.02	0.03	0.10	0.11	0.05
hg7	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.01	0.00	0.00	0.00
hg8	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.01	0.00	0.00	0.00
hg9	0.41	0.45	0.31	0.39	0.35	0.37	0.42	0.38	0.54	0.40	0.25	0.30
hg16	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.03	0.01	0.00
hg21	0.09	0.14	0.03	0.07	0.03	0.06	0.16	0.03	0.21	0.00	0.00	0.02
hg26	0.05	0.00	0.05	0.05	0.05	0.07	0.06	0.15	0.04	0.00	0.00	0.04
hg28	0.05	0.00	0.01	0.02	0.00	0.03	0.01	0.00	0.01	0.00	0.00	0.01
hg29	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.01	0.00	0.01	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00
```




> The regions of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and the Near East represent an extremely important area with respect to ancient population migration and expansion, and the spread of the Caucasian, Indo-European, Afro-Asiatic, and Altaic languages. We examined genetic variation within and between 12 ethno-territorial populations belonging to four major language families by using six microsatellites, or short tandem repeats (STR) and 12 Unique Event Polymorphism (UEP) loci mapped to the non-recombining portion of the human Y-chromosome. The applied set of markers did not unconditionally support the language replacement hypothesis for the populations under consideration. Moreover, regarding the South Caucasus and Anatolia, our results showed greater genetic distances between the populations from different language families, and close genetic affinity for the populations from the same language group―in this case, for the Turkophone ethnic units. The results point to the importance of appropriate Y- chromosome sampling procedures in geographically structured populations and to the necessity of using a relevant set of markers that provides best discrimination of populations with different genetic histories.
> 
> Subjects
> DNA has been extracted from...741 informed consenting self-identified ethnic Armenian males at four regional collection areas in Armenia and in the Armenian community of London. Some samples were later discarded because of typing failure, therefore the final number of samples used for the statistical analysis were 734. All samples were segregated to six geographic groups according to paternal grandparental place of birth: “Ararat” (ARA), “Iranian” (IRN), “Karabakh” (KRB), “North” (NRT), “Syunik” (SNK), and “West” (WST) (Fig.1). (Detailed description of regions was given in Weale et al. 2001).
> 
> Comparative data sets
> We used also DNA samples collected among the Yezidis (YZD) (n=196) and Assyrians (ASR) (n=106) living in Armenia. Comparative data sets included also samples collected from other countries for the same Y-chromosome markers: “Turkey” (TRK), 179 students of Istanbul University; “Azerbaijan” (AZR), 40 residents of the capital city Baku; “Syria”, 72 students of Damascus University; “Georgia” (GEO), 106 students resident in the capital city Tbilisi. Y-chromosome DNA typing results used in this paper have been provided by our colleagues from The Centre for Genetic Anthropology (TCGA) at the University College, London to conduct comparison with the Armenian data. All comparative data sets are unpublished and currently undergoing statistical analysis. The Armenian populations and comparative data sets were classified to four linguistic groups: Indo-European (Armenians and Yezidis), Semitic (Syrians and Assyrians), Turkic (Turks and Azerbaijanis), and South Caucasian (Georgians).


"Genetic Testing of Language Replacement Hypothesis in Southwest Asia" (I cannot post links. The study is available on the Internet. Just need to search for it.)
LEVON YEPISKOPOSIAN, ASHOT HARUTYUNIAN, ARMINE KHUDOYAN
Arya International University, Yerevan
Institute of Man, Yerevan
2006

Dodecad v3 K=12


```
Component	ARM	ASY
“European”	31.9	27.3 (Nearly entirely "Med.")
“African”	0.2	0.0
“East Asian”	0.2	0.3
“South Asian”	1.6	2.2
"SW Asian”	12.2	19.4
“W Asian”	54	50.6
```

Dienekes:



> DodecadOracle("Assyrian_D",mixedmode=T)
> [,1] [,2]
> [1,] "Assyrian_D" "0"
> [2,] "83.9% Armenians_16 + 16.1% Yemen_Jews" "1.7829"
> [3,] "89.1% Armenian_D + 10.9% Saudis" "2.1624"
> [4,] "84.3% Armenians_16 + 15.7% Saudis" "2.2884"
> [5,] "88.9% Armenian_D + 11.1% Yemen_Jews" "2.2983"
> 
> This reaffirms the close relationship of Assyrians to Armenians that has been noticed in the project and by others, and it also shows that Assyrians differ from Armenians in a Southwestern Asian direction, consistent with their Semitic language.

----------


## sparkey

> I am not going to reply to some of the patently false statements made about my people in this thread.


I am curious as to whether or not that includes anything I've said, or if you think I've been about right.

I'll be honest and say that I was expecting more overlap between the Assyrians and the Syrians, considering that they are both largely descended from people who were once important ethnic groups within the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Do West Assyrians (Syriac Orthodox types) show greater affinity to Syrians or are they just as distant, do we know?

----------


## Humanist

> I am curious as to whether or not that includes anything I've said, or if you think I've been about right.
> 
> I'll be honest and say that I was expecting more overlap between the Assyrians and the Syrians, considering that they are both largely descended from people who were once important ethnic groups within the Neo-Assyrian Empire. Do West Assyrians (Syriac Orthodox types) show greater affinity to Syrians or are they just as distant, do we know?


Hi sparkey. No, I was not referring to you. We do indeed share genes with Syrians. Their Arabian admixture, however, particularly when it is associated with African admixture (presumably via the Arab slave trade), complicates these sorts of analyses. But, if you look at the less admixed Syrians, such as the Alawi, the similarities are much more evident, as one would expect, between Syrians and Mesopotamians. I am attaching a non-metric MDS I prepared a few days ago, based on Y-DNA frequencies. The Alawi, like the Armenians and Assyrians, have a significant R1b frequency. In fact, based on a sample of Syrian Alawi taken in Adana, Turkey, they have a greater R1b rate than both Armenians and Assyrians. And, the majority of the haplotypes are DYS393=13, along with a modest amount of DYS393=12. Their modal haplotype is similar to the Assyrian modal R-L23 haplotype. 

Also, regarding the Syriac Orthodox, there are a few participating in the Dodecad project. There are also a few Chaldean Catholics participating. Here are the individual results. 



```
ID	E_Euro	W_Euro	Medit	Ne_Af	W_Asi	S_Asi	NE_Asi	SE_Asi	E_Afi	SW_Asi	NW_Af	Pa_Af
ORT	0	1	29	0	46	2	0	0	0	22	0	0
MAN	0	3	23	0	42	7	0	0	2	22	1	0
NES	0	0	21	0	54	3	0	1	0	21	0	0
NES	0	4	23	0	51	0	0	1	0	21	0	0
ORT	0	0	32	0	47	0	0	0	0	21	0	0
N_C	0	0	25	0	50	5	0	0	0	20	0	0
NES	1	0	26	0	49	3	0	0	0	20	0	0
NES	1	2	26	0	47	4	0	0	0	20	0	0
NES	2	2	26	0	46	5	0	0	0	20	0	0
CHA	0	2	26	0	49	4	0	0	0	20	0	0
NES	2	3	25	0	45	6	0	0	0	19	0	0
MAN	1	2	27	0	43	6	1	0	0	19	0	0
CHA	1	1	27	0	43	6	0	1	0	19	2	0
NES	2	2	25	0	49	2	0	0	0	19	0	0
ORT	0	1	29	0	48	2	0	0	0	19	0	0
CHA	2	4	27	0	44	5	0	0	0	19	1	0
CHA	0	0	27	0	52	2	0	0	0	19	0	0
NES	2	1	26	0	48	4	0	0	1	18	0	0
CHA	3	2	29	0	44	4	0	0	0	17	1	0
NES	3	0	24	0	54	1	0	1	0	17	0	0
NES	0	0	28	0	52	3	0	0	0	17	0	0
NES	0	1	26	0	52	3	0	0	0	17	0	0
NES	0	1	26	0	53	3	0	0	0	17	0	0
NES	1	0	27	0	52	4	0	0	0	17	0	0
IRQ	2	6	25	1	36	10	0	2	2	16	1	0
```

MAN = Iraqi Mandaean (Mesopotamian gnostic sect from the 1st, 2nd or 3rd century CE)
IRQ = Iraqi Arab from Baghdad

Assyrians
CHA = Chaldean Catholic
ORT = Syriac Orthodox
NES = "Nestorian"
N_C = NES/CHA

Average values for the Assyrians, the two Mandaeans, the sole Baghdadi Arab, and Behar's Syrians:


```
ID	E_Euro	W_Euro	Medit	Ne_Af	W_Asi	S_Asi	NE_Asi	SE_Asi	E_Afi	SW_Asi	NW_Af	Pa_Af
ORT	0	1	30	0	47	1	0	0	0	21	0	0
CHA	1	2	27	0	46	4	0	0	0	19	1	0
NES	1	1	25	0	50	3	0	0	0	19	0	0
MAN	1	3	25	0	42	7	0	0	1	21	1	0												
IRQ	2	6	25	1	36	10	0	2	2	16	1	0
SYR   2	2	24	2	34	3	1	1	2	28	1	1
```

Syriac Orthodox and Nestorians/Chaldeans have (more or less) been separated since at least the Council of Ephesus (431 CE). The Nestorians and Chaldeans for at least half a millennium (Schism of 1552). All of the Mesopotamian Christians participating in Dodecad identify as Assyrian, and not as Aramaeans, or Chaldeans. The origin of the Aramaeans is said to have been the southern Levant. The Chaldeans, northern Arabia/southern Mesopotamia. They certainly contributed to our genome, but so did the Israelites, Medians, and others.

----------


## sparkey

Very interesting... it looks like Dodecad doesn't have enough data yet, but what it's giving is indicating strongly that Syriac Orthodox are not that close to Syrians. I did a quick tally of total summed percentage differences that you posted and got these distances from the Syrians:

ORT: 39
CHA: 33
NES: 33
MAN: 37
IRQ: 30

Syrians appear as quite distinct overall and not close to any of the indigenous Mesopotamian ethnicities.

Others compared to ORT:

CHA: 12
NES: 13
MAN: 21
IRQ: 43

We obviously get the three Assyrian branches clustering quite closely and with Mandaeans being significantly closer than the "Arab" ethnicities. This is all quite favorable to the "Assyrianist" narrative.

----------


## Humanist

> Very interesting...


You appear to have some interest in the question, so, you may also find this worthy a read:




> [I]t is important to draw attention to the fact that the Aramaic-speaking peoples of the Near East have since ancient times identified themselves as Assyrians and still continue to do so. The self-designations of modern Syriacs and Assyrians, Sūryōyō and Sūrāyā, are both derived from the ancient Assyrian word for "Assyrian", Aššūrāyu, as can be easily established from a closer look at the relevant words.
> 
> The word Aššūrāyu is an adjective derived from the geographical and divine name Aššur with the gentilic suffix -āyu. This name was originally pronounced [Aššūr], with a palato-alveolar fricative, but owing to a sound shift, its pronunciation was turned to [Aθθūr] in the early second millennium BC. The common Aramaic word for Assyria, Āθūr, reflects this pronunciation and in all probability dates back to the twelfth century BC, when the Aramean tribes first came into contact with the Assyrians. Towards the end of the second millennium, another sound shift took place in Assyrian, turning the pronunciation of the name into [Assūr]. Since unstressed vowels and even whole syllables were often dropped in Neo-Assyrian at the beginning of words, this name form later also had a shorter variant, [Sūr], attested in alphabetic writings of personal names containing the element Aššur in late seventh century BC Aramaic documents from Assyria. The Neo-Assyrian word [Assūrāyu], “Assyrian”, thus likewise had a shorter variant [Sūrāyu] in the seventh century. This variant is hidden behind standard orthography in Assyrian cuneiform texts, but its existence is confirmed by the classical Greek words for Assyrians and Assyria, which display a corresponding variation between forms with initial A- (Assúrios/Assuría) and ones without it (Súrios/Súros/Suría; see AppendixIII).The Greeks, who were in frequent contact with Assyria in the eighth and seventh centuries BC,57 would not have borrowed the word without the initial A-, had the Assyrians themselves not omitted it, since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of classical Greek phonology.
> 
> Phonologically, Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā perfectly agrees with Neo-Assyrian [Sūrāyu], while Syriac Sūryōyō displays an intrusive yod, which it shares with Greek Súrios and Suría. This intrusive yod surely is due to Greek influence, since in classical Syriac the word also occurs in the form Sūrōyō, in perfect agreement with the Modern Assyrian Sūrāyā. It is worth noting that Sūrāyā is reported to have a variant with initial A-, but this is avoided in careful speech, since it instinctively sounds incorrect in view of the classical Syriac Sūryōyō. Since omission of initial vowels is not a feature of Aramaic phonology, the lack of the initial A- in Sūrāyā/Sūr(y)ōyō cannot be due to internal Aramaic development but must go back directly to Neo-Assyrian.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [Assūr] ~ [Sūr] has a perfect parallel in the NA forms of another important divine name, Ištar (NA [Iššār]), which was also realized as [Šār] in Neo-Assyrian, see PNA 1/I, xxv. As in the case of [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is effectively concealed behind the prodominantly logographic or ossified cuneiform spellings of the divine name ((d)15, dINNIN, dIŠ.TAR), but its existence is raised beyond any doubt by the NA spellings of the Urartian royal name Sarduri [Šārdūri], which is written varyingly as m(d)15-du-ri, mdINNIN-du-ri or msa-ar-du-ri in the Neo-Assyrian royal inscriptions (see PNA 2/I 568f; note also the spelling URU.15-BÀD-a-ni = Sarduriani in ABL 147 = SAA 5 97 r.11). The “rebus” spellings m(d)15-du-ri and mdINNIN-BÀD/du-ri, implying the short form [Šār], are already attested in several inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser III from c. 740 BC, and continue to be found in the letters and inscriptions of Sargon II (721-705) and Assurbanipal (668-630; for the latter, note m15-BÀD LUGAL KUR.ur-arţi in Streck 1916, 84:40, and mdI[Š.TAR-du-r]i LUGAL KUR.ú-ra-ar-ţi-im-[ma], ABL 1240:4-5). Like [Sūr], the short form [Šār] is also explicitly attested in Aramaic alphabetic spelling (cf. šrdrq’l = md15–BÀD-qa-a-li [Iššār-dūr-qāli], AECT 31) and in NB spellings of the Neo-Assyrian name Issār-tarība (mdiš-šar–ta-ri-bi, mdiš-šár–ta-ribi, mšar–ta-ri-bi, mdšár–ta-ri-bi, md15–ta-ri-bi, and mdIŠ.TAR–ta-ri-bi, all referring tothe same person), see Zadok 1984, 4.


_National and Ethnic Identity in the Neo-Assyrian Empire and Assyrian Identity in Post-Empire Times_
Dr. Simo Parpola (Assyriologist)

Also see: "Çineköy inscription" on Wiki.

And, REMARKS ON THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE MODERN ASSYRIAN LANGUAGE (2007)
Geoffrey Khan 
University of Cambridge

Dr. Khan's concluding "remark."




> In sum, the evidence adduced above demonstrates that the dialects of Modern Assyrian are unlikely to be direct descendants of the literary Syriac language,although they are undoubtedly related to it. Rather they existed side-by-side with it for centuries. Some of the features of the modern spoken dialects that
> differ from literary Syriac can be shown to have emerged at a much earlier 
> period by the fact that they occasionally surface in written texts by a process 
> of linguistic interference. Some features of morphology, moreover, are 
> typologically more archaic than the corresponding features in Syriac. 
> Likewise, some lexical items of the modern dialects are not attested in Syriac 
> but have roots that can be traced to antiquity in the Akkadian language.

----------


## sparkey

> You appear to have some interest in the question, so, you may also find this worthy a read:


Thanks for reading, it looks reliable, and matches my general understanding. My interest stems from my wife being 1/4 Assyrian (a Chaldean family from Baghdad that's been Arabic-speaking for the past couple generations) and struggling to figure out what to call that side of her family, and learning their history. They're okay with "Iraqi" but heavily dislike "Arab" even though they speak Arabic, and are okay with "Assyrian" but like to qualify it so that they're not confused with Church of the East types or Neo-Aramaic speakers. All that combined with the fact that there is a movement to separate Assyrians into three distinct ethnicities made it very confusing for me. The genetic data (as well as the history of the Suryoyo/Suraya words) make me favor the idea of them all being one Assyrian ethnicity, though, divided into subgroups principally along denominational lines.

If another theory, say the "Aramaeanist" theory, was correct, we would expect different genetic results, at least. I think we would see a greater affinity between Syriac Orthodox and Syrians, and certainly less affinity between Syriac Orthodox and Mandaens. I was actually expecting genetics to show an intermediate result between "Aramaeanist" and "Assyrianist" theories, especially concerning the Syriac Orthodox, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

----------


## Dorianfinder

What is the predominant haplogroup for the Assyrian population?

----------


## sparkey

> What is the predominant haplogroup for the Assyrian population?


Per our friend Humanist on another forum:




> N=77
> R1b 25%
> J1 17%
> J2 16%
> T 13%
> G 10%
> E1b 6%
> R1a 4%
> R2a 4%
> ...


The source is the FTDNA Project, which is not scholarly but still useful. Also from Humanist citing Chiaroni et al:




> Assyrian (n=55)
> R1a1 3.64%
> R1a* 0.00%
> R*(xR1a) 40.00%
> P 9.09%
> O 3.64%
> L1 0.00%
> K*(xL1,M1,N1,O,P) 1.82%
> J 10.91%
> ...


Taken together, they seem to have a plurality R1b, with also a lot of both subclades of J. Obviously Humanist is the expert here so he can give us any additional findings.

----------


## Humanist

> Per our friend Humanist:
> 
> The source is the FTDNA Project, which is not scholarly but still useful. Also from Humanist citing Chiaroni et al:
> 
> Taken together, they seem to have a plurality R1b, with also a lot of both subclades of J. Obviously Humanist is the expert here so he can give us any additional findings.


sparkey. Just want to clarify one thing. That last one is not actually Chiaroni et al., but rather a questionable study out of Iran, on Iranian minority religious groups. Please see Dienekes' post on this paper, for more information: "Y Chromosome variation in Iranian religious groups." 

The most significant Assyrian haplogroups are: 

R-L23 (20%-30%)
J1 (majority J1*, 15%-20%)
J2 (majority J2a and J2a4b, 15%-20%)
T (majority PS21, 10%-15%)

The majority of men are "Nestorians." These haplogroups and their range frequencies may not be consistent with Chaldean Catholic and Syriac Orthodox Y-DNA. 

PS - So, you are married to a part Chaldean? Neat!

----------


## sparkey

> sparkey. Just want to clarify one thing. That last one is not actually Chiaroni et al., but rather a questionable study out of Iran, on Iranian minority religious groups. Please see Dienekes' post on this paper, for more information: "Y Chromosome variation in Iranian religious groups."


Sorry, I misread the thread. They cite the bogus study that "The Genetic Atlas" made up? That's a scholarly blunder, at least.




> R-L23 (20%-30%)


Wow, what are the levels of R1b L23-?




> PS - So, you are married to a part Chaldean? Neat!


Yep! I talk a little more about her background here.

----------


## barbarian

> 


my grandfathers father was kurdish, however, i dont feel like kurdish. on the other hand, i can understand kurds struggle for having their own country. i hope 1 day there will be peace in that part of the country.

But, i dont understand this map. here is the result of latest election in turkey, and the *dark* blue areas show that in only 2 cities the kurdish national party have the majority. 
 
and in some cities which are supposed to be kurdish in this graph have very interesting election results. for example, in sewas (sivas):
kurdish national party: 0; turkish national party: 10 (majority is AKP-liberal(?) muslim party- with %63,3)
meres (marash):
kurdish national party: 0,5; turkish national party: 13 (majority is AKP with %69,6)

anyway, this map is funny.

----------


## how yes no 3

yes, I did feel it all along that Kurds are Europeans in origin

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post395850

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## Alan

> We anatolians dont lİke mongols and kurds. İ am anatolİan mİtannİ descend İ wİsh everyone return theİr homeland anatolİa for anatolİans


good for you.

This is the traditional definition of Anatolia. 

AnatolieLimits.jpg

Now please get your people and troops out of Kurdistan and be a happy Anatolian  :Good Job: 


@barbarian these election results you show are fake and you know that. Very bold to come here show a fake map and to lie. We are not on Youtube. There you can spread your crap but not here.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...nglish.svg.png
http://www.electoralgeography.com/ne...egislative.png

Elections aren't and indication for anyways. Not every person is a ultra national Kurd that he votes for a Kurdish party just for nothing. People want food too and people and provinces which voted for Kurdish party are generally left out and poor dirt because of obvious reasons.

----------


## Alan

> The land is Artuqid land and ottoman not your we brought you from İran you nothing have to mesopotamia and anatolia well most syrians are descend of anatolians. Anatolias build these cities Only hakkari is belong to kurds. Hakkari maybe Şırnak too belong Kurds they are native to these city
>  i wish these Tatars and nogai go out our land too i dont like them they made turanist propaganda



your sentence doesn't make sense. "Artuqids" were a dynasty and came to this place of the world around 1100 AD. According to your failed fascist logic this land is Roman since they had a ruled this land for centuries. You say you are not from Central Asia but than claim a land based on a Turkmen (Central Asian) dynasty. Do you have some sort of mental issues (or is it just your fascist mentality which tempts you to be like this, I assume you also believe Sumerians were Proto-Turks and anyone of this world is descend of Proto-Turks just like Atatürk teached you guys didn't he?) And why should this land be Artuqid to begin with? Just because of a Turkmen dynasty. According to your logic this land is ultimately Iranic anyways.  :Laughing: 

680 BCE where was your "Artuqids" during that time?
Median_Empire.jpg

Parthian Dynasty.
parthianmap.jpg

Mitanni
Near_East_1400_BCE.jpg

Ayyubid Dynasty 
Ayyubids.jpg

Now please leave Kurdistan and go to wherever you came from, be it Turkmenistan, the Altai mountains or Anatolia. According to your own logic you are not even Anatolian to begin with (Anatolia is a Greek word) nor are you Mesopotamian or Transcaucasian. Claiming a dynasty with a heavy Indo-Iranian Elite, like the Mitanni does show me what a trol l face you are.

----------


## hgfds

_Carlos Flores, Nicole Maca-Meyer, Jose M. Larruga, Vicente M. Cabrera, Naif Karadsheh, and Ana M. Gonzalez. "Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan." Journal of Human Genetics 50 (2005): pages 435-441. This study is mainly about the people of Jordan, but also compares them to other populations in the region. It includes a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia (modern Turkey), and these Kurds' Y-DNA (paternal DNA) haplogroup distributions were as follows:


J2-M172 = 19.9%
F*-M89 = 14.3%
R1a1-M17 = 12.4%
R1-M173 = 11.2%
J1-M267 = 11.2%
P-M45 = 10%
T-M70 = 4.8%
E1b1b1a-M78 = 4%
E1b1b1c-M123 = 4%
G-M201 = 2%




In this study, Nebel et al. found the following Y-DNA (paternal DNA) haplogroup frequencies among Kurds from Iraqi Kurdistan:
J2 = 28.4%
R1b = 16.8%
I = 16.8%
R1a = 11.6%
J1 = 11.6%
E1b1b = 7.4%
G = 4.2%
T = 3.2%




Their sample of 114 Kurds from Turkey (Zaza and Kurmanji Kurds) had the following Y-DNA (paternal DNA) haplogroup frequencies, among others:
F = 10.5%
P1 = 6.1%
P* = 5.3%
Ömer Gokcumen, et al. "Biological Ancestries, Kinship Connections, and Projected Identities in Four Central Anatolian Settlements: Insights from Culturally Contextualized Genetic Anthropology." American Anthropologist 113:1 (2011): pages 116-131. Y-DNA was tested from Kurds from a Kurdish village called "Dogukoy" in the central Anatolian region they called "Yuksekyer" (the real village and region names were obfuscated). 5 of those sampled belonged to haplogroup E1b, 1 to I2a2a-M223, 1 to I2a2b-L38, 1 to J1, 20 to J2 (representing 64.5% of all samples), 1 to R1a, and 2 to R1b-M343.



__

_

See, you guys (westerners) don't understand.
The modern Kurdish issue is political first and foremost, pumped by propaganda, not more not less, thus it has no long term future. They are Not much different than neighbors; not racially, not culturally, and not even that much ethnically. On what basis that obsession and emphasis on Kurdish identity and independence? even if it was practical. 


The reason that there is a big issue such as the Kurdish issue is very simple and not complicated at all. The Kurds, unfortunately for them, for some historical reason happened to have an extreme nationalist elite that is obsessed with racial purity and identity, just like any racially fanatic group. Thats it!, that the whole explanation for the "Kurdish issue". Nothing more to it. Sure one can throw some junk from history, culture, genes, ethnicity; bend it and milk it to find a deeper meaning for this obsession about the Kurdish "Identity" 




To give you an example from your own culture so you can relate and understand, take this scenario. You know the racist maniac movement called Afrocentrism that exist it the USA right? You know nation of Islam? that group that believes in methodological stories such as that African americans descend from a lost African tribe named Shabaz that originated in Africa 66 trillion years ago, Ancient Egyptians are predominately black, Athena is black, Shakespeare is black, and etc


They even protested against a museum for showing King tut as white because they think ancient Egypt is sub-saharan. 


(Couldn't put the link for the video)


Now this is only a small segment of African American community, but imagine that somehow this movement became wide spread among most AA (African American) and became the norm among them, its very conceivable for this scenario to happen. Now people outside the USA who are not familiar with this movement, its roots and ideology and only listen to their side of the so called "issue" would think that most of what they say is true. AA must be the most oppressed group on earth!! Damn this whole movement is really IN FACT about them being so oppressed, and Its roots is in fact old in history and all about their stolen and manipulated heritage and identity; Its not a movement that is driven by an extreme ideology that is based on appealing to primitive emotions and propaganda and somehow found its way to AA community, no not at all, its all real! Thats what an outsider would think


Now imagine these group of people (Afrocentrism) who are the majority of AA demand a separate country somewhere in the U.S.A.it all adds up right? after all they are that oppressed and distinct. Of course thats bullshit and not true, yes AA have been oppressed in the future and still are to some extent no one denies that, and yes their history and heritage have been manipulated but not to the extent that Afrocentrists make it look like. Of course most people can recognize that now because Afrocentrists are only a small minority among the AA community, but just use your imagination a little bit and try to imagine what will happen if Afrocentrism became the norm among most AA. It will become a 100 times easier for outsiders to be fooled by Afrocentrists because after all they represent most AA right? they all cannot be liars. But its not about lying, thats just the nature of victim mentality when it spreads among a group of people, it just makes them delusional. Notice that I am not denying any injustice that Kurds went through, but just like the Afrocentrists example all I'm saying is that its a 100 exaggerated it. 


So bottom line is that the Kurdish extreme elite created: A fake identity using propaganda (History, culture, race...etc) that justifies the supposed deep distinction between them and other people in the region (which explains why is the OP trying do prove they are European, that and inferiority complex) + victim mentality + Western Oligarchy's interests in deviding the region especially Turkey = the Kurdish "issue"




I know that most westerners will not believe this and will only listen to the Kurdish side of the story because its so supported by western Oligarchy (media, academics, politics..etc) But hey at least take this information as an explanation of what most people in the region think about this issue. 


_

_

----------


## LeBrok

> _Carlos Flores, Nicole Maca-Meyer, Jose M. Larruga, Vicente M. Cabrera, Naif Karadsheh, and Ana M. Gonzalez. "Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan." Journal of Human Genetics 50 (2005): pages 435-441. This study is mainly about the people of Jordan, but also compares them to other populations in the region. It includes a sample of 251 Kurds from Anatolia (modern Turkey), and these Kurds' Y-DNA (paternal DNA) haplogroup distributions were as follows:
> 
> 
> J2-M172 = 19.9%
> F*-M89 = 14.3%
> R1a1-M17 = 12.4%
> R1-M173 = 11.2%
> J1-M267 = 11.2%
> P-M45 = 10%
> ...


By understanding of Western free and democratic world, any ethnic group should have a right to separate into own independent country, by means of referendum. It doesn't matter that you think they are not different enough, it matters that they feel different enough. It is their choice to have, not yours. 
It seems that you hate Kurds a lot. Are you Turk? 
And watch out. Degrading any ethnicity or nationality on Eupedia is forbidden.

----------


## Goga

Dutch and German are not different from each other, or Germans and Danes are not that different from each other or Czechian and Slovakian populations are not that different or that Croatians are similar to Serbs, still all those ethnic groups have their own country.

Or do only nations of Europe have a right to have their own country, while Kurds, Kurdish unique culture and Kuridsh language should be exterminated, right?


Kurds and Turks are 2 different things. We have got different languages, different cultures (Kurds Iranic, while Turks mixed between Turanic/Anatolian), different roots and different future.


There are much more differences between Turks and Kurds than between Duch and let say Spanish people. 


Kurds are native to their homeland, while Turks are from the Altai. Kurds have more right to have their own state than Turks in Anatolia, becasue Kurds are native while Turks are immigrants from the Altai. 


Kurds will have their own state to protect themlseves from new masacres and genocides. If Kurds will not have their own state, enemies of Kurds come at night and try to kill Kurdish children and women again and again.


Kurdistan belongs to Kurdistan and Kurdish natural recourses belong to Kurdish race, because Kurds are native to their own homeland.


There are 1000 more reasons why Kurds *will get* their own homeland back. And nobody will ever stop it. Definitely not Turks. Turks and Arabs are to WEAK to stop independent Great Kurdistan, from Amed to Kermanshah.


This is my first and last reply to you. I don't have time to play games with you..

----------


## Goga

> It seems that you hate Kurds a lot. Are you Turk?


Don't think he is a Turk. He can be everyone. He/she just 'using' Turk for his/her own rant It seems that he is showing his anger toward the whole race of 50 million people, while he is maybe angry at some individuals who can be of Kuridsh origin. But when it comes out that he hates the whole distinctive race of 50 million people, then it is not anger or hatred but simply racism.

If some Kurdish individuals didn't do anything to him/her, then his/her hatred and racism can be explained by his/her jealousy of Kurdish race / history...

----------


## hgfds

> By understanding of Western free and democratic world, any ethnic group should have a right to separate into own independent country, by means of referendum. It doesn't matter that you think they are not different enough, it matters that they feel different enough. It is their choice to have, not yours. 
> It seems that you hate Kurds a lot. Are you Turk? 
> And watch out. Degrading any ethnicity or nationality on Eupedia is forbidden.



I didn't talk about whether they have the right to have an independent nation or not, I'm clarifying to the western reader what kind of motives motivates their cause and the tools they use, because I think it is difficult for an outsider to come to that conclusion by him/her self due to massive propaganda campaign from the west to support their "cause" (Media, Academics, Political..etc)

Do they have the right to their own nation? thats another question which I will leave to the next comment. 

And obviously I didn't degrade any ethnicity




> He/she just 'using' Turk for his/her own rant


I didn't use anything and didn't claim any nation.
And I'm sorry if I offended you, I'm talking about some of the elites not the people.
And I don't hate Kurds as you think.

----------


## hgfds

Do Kurds have the right to an independent nation? 
Idealistic values sound attractive when your a strong and stable first world nation and its not happening on your land. Take the last elections in the U.S for example, when Trump won people started riots in the streets, some writers speculated a "military coup", others demanded the electoral collage to not vote for him..etc. Imagine it was something more serious?


I'm not writing this in hope to convince anybody, because I know that what the media did in years cannot be erased in one comment 
I'm just trying to present to you the other side of the story, and believe me this is what 85%-90% of people in the region think

People here think that the western oligarchy support the Kurds as part of a broader plan to further divide our countries. The Kurdish extremist political elites ally with our enemies such as Israel and western oligarchy against us, we WILL NOT accept that. Even if we hypothetically agree to divide our nations, we don't want them to create a new enemy state on our borders! Imagine Scotland gains independence and allies with the Soviet Union against Britain. And to make this example more realistic imagine that Britain and Europe are 3rd world countries + the Soviets are trying divide all of Europe (Thus more vulnerable) under absurd claims and ideologies. I'm sure in this case you will forget about the right of self-determination and other idealistic values.
Adding to that the grossly exaggerated land that they claim, just look at their maps.


All of these are practical obstacles that makes most people in the region stand agents Kurdish independence even if their cause was hypothetically just, which is not the case.
We in this region who are suffering from western oligarchy aggression and conspires cannot afford to give every village an independent nation.
We need to establish logical criteria for determining the right of a group to claim an independent nation, otherwise the west will tear our counter apart
Religion, values, culture, history..etc. These factors need to be drastically different to justify getting an independent nation, like N Sudan and S Sudan. Not merely an absurd and extreme ideology that stands on no logical ground. Kurds and Turks are very similar racially, and *almost* identical in all other factors except language, even same social structure (habits, ideologies, values, morals...etc) If we give independence to any group based only on ideological indoctrination that is based mostly mythological and historical delusions then that opens the door for any group to make up anything and demand indepenace, *and believe me there are a lot of other groups waiting!* 


Don't use your current position as strong and stable first world countries for comparison, try to put all other factors in the consideration.

----------


## Goga

> Do Kurds have the right to an independent nation?


Yes, you know why? Because Turks have already many states in Central Asia: Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Is it not ENOUGH???

Arabs have more than 20 states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world


It is not up to Turks to decide whether Kurds should have their own state. It is what Kurds WANT. And Kurds WILL build their own state(s), 1 Great Kurdistan or maybe 2 or 3 smaller Kurdish states. 


No matter what Kurds are defeating and will defeat Turks big time. Kurds will sent Turks back to Cnetral Asia. 


And no, Kurds and Turks ae not racially similar. Kurds are pure people belong the Aryan/Iranian race, while Turks are a mixture of everything and everybody. I mean, I am an Ezdi Kurd and I'm racially basically similar to the ancient Medes who lived 2500 years ago. Can Turks say the same?

PKK is in our DNA and our soul. Is PKK also in the DNA of the Turks. I don't think so. Kurdish race is Aryan/PKK!

Kurds and TUrks belong to defferent racial gorups, 2 different linguistic groups, 2 different religions (Islam vs. Yezidism/Zoroastrianism), 2 different cultres (Aryan culture vs. Turanic culture)

My people don't want to b in 1 country with Turks. Turks are Muslim. My people are Yezidi. I mean, I have dozens of nephews and nieces. I have 5 uncles and 5 aunts. My uncles and aunts have their own children and grandchildren. My parents have also many uncles and aunts. All of them have also children and grandchildren. I don't even know how big my family is. All I know, that ALL my relatives don't like Turks, never liked the Turks and never want to be near the Turks.

ALL of my relatives are 100% hardcore PKK. PKK is in our DNA. TO defeat the PKK, you need to defeat 50 million racial Kurds.


There will be Kurdistan, I'm sure about it 10000%. Turks played stupid games and they lost. They wanted a revival of the Ottoman Empire (LMAO, how delusion of grandeur cab you be, it is really mental), now they will have NOTHING at all. Erdogan teared Turkey apart. Nobody wants to help the Turks against the Kurds. 

Turks, Turkey = ISIS, Daesh. Daesh is going down big time. Turkey is going down together with Daesh. 

It is very simple, those who support the Kruds will win this war , those who help Turkey will going down together with Turkey. Kurds are the winners this time. It is our time and our era. Kurds are awaken. USA, Russia etc. are not going to hep Turkey. USA know that if they help Turkey, USA will lose influence of the whole Middle East. USA is supporting the strongest actor.
Russia is also can't really help Turkey and Turkey can't help Russia. Russia knows that if Russia will chose the side of Turkey, Russia will lose big time.

It is how it is. Realpolitik. And NOBODY can do anything about it. You can't change the course of history. And history is on the Kurdish side. It is how our ARYAN God wants it to be.

Kurds will get what belongs to the Kurds. Kurds don't want more, they want only what belongs to themselves and their ancestors and their children.


Kurds will build a beautiful country for themselves. We will show the whole world what does it mean to be a real Aryan nation.


PKK = 50 million Kurdish people. Power to the people!

----------


## LeBrok

> Do Kurds have the right to an independent nation? 
> Idealistic values sound attractive when your a strong and stable first world nation and its not happening on your land.


European principles of freedoms and independence was forged in centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars. Europe today is a small continent but with 50 nations. If anyone, Europe understands importance of freedom and independence for any peoples. You are not in position to teach us, but to learn from us.





> I'm not writing this in hope to convince anybody, because I know that what the media did in years cannot be erased in one comment 
> I'm just trying to present to you the other side of the story, and believe me this is *what 85%-90% of people in the region think*


 Now, this is Turkish propaganda. Such strong unity of thoughts doesn't exist. Especially in ethnically mixed country like Turkey, Syria or Iraq.




> People here think that the* western oligarchy* support the Kurds as part of a broader plan to further divide our countries. The Kurdish extremist political elites ally with our enemies such as Israel and western oligarchy against us, we WILL NOT accept that. Even if we hypothetically agree to divide our nations, we don't want them to create a new enemy state on our borders!


 You think European people are not intelligent enough to have their own independent thought and need oligarchy to decide for them?!!! Did you miss the fact that Europe is a conglomerate of 50 democratic states where people dictated political direction of every country? These people through their elected representatives dictate direction of EU. 
But of course you are smart enough to know that Europeans are run by "conspiring oligarchy". Where did you learn how Europe works, in Russia? You sound like someone from Putin's fake news department of cyber warfare.




> Imagine Scotland gains independence and allies with the Soviet Union against Britain.


Imagine Scotland have referendum about its independance. Oh, wait, you don't need to, they actually did have it in real life. People decided about their future! Imagine that! If Britten allow it for Scots, why Turkey can't allow it for Kurds? Again, please learn how it is done in free western world.





> All of these are practical obstacles that makes most people in the region stand agents Kurdish independence even if their cause was hypothetically just, which is not the case.
> We in this region who are suffering from *western oligarchy aggression* and conspires cannot afford to give every village an independent nation.
> We need to establish logical criteria for determining the right of a group to claim an independent nation, otherwise the west will tear our counter apart


This is where you lost all the credibility.




> Religion, values, culture, history..etc. These factors need to be drastically different to justify getting an independent nation, like N Sudan and S Sudan. *Not merely an absurd and extreme ideology that stands on no logical ground*.


 Oh, your "smarts" are coming out more and more.





> Kurds and Turks are very similar racially, and





> *almost* identical in all other factors except language, even same social structure (habits, ideologies, values, morals...etc)


They are actually quite genetically distinct, especially from West Turks who are genetically more like Greeks. There are also some enclaves in Turkey where people have strong genetic similarities with central Asian Turkic populations. Remember, you are posting on Genetic Anthropology forums. Regardless, genetic differences or similarities are not a prerequisite for independence or against it, for any population. It is time you should learn this.




> *and believe me there are a lot of other groups waiting!*


Good, they should get their independence too. Why the heck it scares you so much?! Let people decide what they want to do with their land, country, language, politics. Europe understood it, all who wanted got their country. All the wars stopped. We have unprecedented peace, tolerance and prosperity. Can't you see that it is a good thing?
Once again, you should learn from Europeans, and stop teaching us.

----------


## MOESAN

I think Kurds deserve to have their proper state(s) if it's really democratic, for today political and ethnic reasons. I'm sincere and I'm upset when I saw the big states helping them here and leave their brethren die there, for real politic.
Do'nt take real politic as a model: it's shit. But I don't care too much about your far past full of honors and purity and what i know. As other people on the earth, your ancestors had blood on their hands (as my own helas). Let's take of past the better, let's defend (y)our rights to independant cultures, but let's leave all these ancient "glory" in the rubbish pots of History; 
NO offense Goga. I would be glad if Kurds had their state, even more if they try to push their society towards the kind of evolution I suppose I'm seeing in some parts of Kurdistan (better place to women than in Arabic lands?).

----------


## DuPidh

Kurds European? OH Please! Never been, never will

----------


## Boreas

It is GOGA time




> Yes, you know why? Because Turks have already many states in Central Asia: Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Is it not ENOUGH???
> 
> Arabs have more than 20 states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world


Cheer up buddy, here is the map of speaker of Iranian languages. I can't decide about Pakistan but look at Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikestan  :Grin: 



How much difference are Kurdish languages from each other and also Persian? Can you compare it with Turkic languages?

This is example to give how difference Turkic languages.

I have found this language tree but there is no time.







> It is not up to Turks to decide whether Kurds should have their own state. It is what Kurds WANT. And Kurds WILL build their own state(s), 1 Great Kurdistan or maybe 2 or 3 smaller Kurdish states.


2-3 State scenario is more realistic. But I suppose that after that scenario definatly at least some of these states will unite.




> No matter what Kurds are defeating and will defeat Turks big time. Kurds will sent Turks back to Cnetral Asia.


This is the section where you bark. First of all, I was getting angry, but now I am enjoying to see how puyt yourself this kind of position :Grin: 

As you said "Turks are a mixture of everything and everybody. " why you are sending Turks to there. There are also not belong there.





> Kurds are pure people belong the Aryan/Iranian race, while Turks are a mixture of everything and everybody.


if there is something I know about genetic, it is that Kurds are not pure as Iranian and Turks. 





> Kurds and TUrks belong to defferent racial gorups, 2 different linguistic groups, 2 different religions (Islam vs. Yezidism/Zoroastrianism), 2 different cultres (Aryan culture vs. Turanic culture)


The only think you can say lingustic but before the Ataturk it was also pretty same with Aryan languages. Even still many basic Turkish words come from Persian.

Turanic ??? Even Seljuk Empire was culturally Aryan 

Your people are Yezidi, but Majority of Kurd not. 

Personel Question:
Do you want to live as a member of Yezidi minority in Kurdistan or prefer to live in a smaller country with Persian Zoroastrian as majority.





> It is how our ARYAN God wants it to be.


Aryan God ??? Wasn't your god create all humankind.

----------


## Goga

> Cheer up buddy, here is the map of speaker of Iranian languages. I can't decide about Pakistan but look at Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikestan 
> 
> How much difference are Kurdish languages from each other and also Persian? Can you compare it with Turkic languages?


Good point! Iran is Western Iranian, while Afghanistan is Eastern Iranian. Tajikistan is semi Iranian since in Tajikistan live many Uzbek folks. Pakistan is actually mostly part of the Indian world. The only difference is that Pakistan is Islamic, while India is Hindu.

So, there is only 1 West Iranian independent state. And even that state is multi cultural. Kurdish is a language on it own. It has its own 'group'. All Kurdish dialect/languages are part of the separate Kurdish group. I don't understand Farsi at all, although many words are similar to Kurdish so I do understand only words..





> Turanic ??? Even Seljuk Empire was culturally Aryan


Don't know much about Seljuks, but their roots and language were Turanic, rooted in Central Asia.




> Your people are Yezidi, but Majority of Kurd not.


All Kurmanji Kurds are Ezdi Kurds. Islam was imposed on them, they are not real Muslims. Islam is only a name. 1 day you are a Muslim, second day you can be soemthing else. *Everybody can be Muslim, from Africa to China.* But the Yezidism is an *ethnoreligion*. Yezidism is part of our Kurdish ethnicity, our Kurdishness. Go to Rojava and ask people who they are. Leaders and most Kurds of Rojava are saying that they are Ezdi, period. Majority of Kurds are Kurmanji Kurds. Kurmanji Kurds = Ezdi Kurds (have Ezdi roots). They come back to their original native origin




> 2-3 State scenario is more realistic. But I suppose that after that scenario definatly at least some of these states will unite.


I think at the end there will be 1 united Kurdish state called Great Kurdistan. But Great Kurdistan will be a federation of 3 or 4 different states. Kurmanji/Ezdi Kurds, Zaza/Gorani Kurds, Feyli Kurds, Sorani Kurds, Luri Kurds will all have their own region, think of Germany or Switzerland. Every Kurdish culture and dialect must be respected & cherished. Pluralism of cultural variations has always been wealth/richness to the Aryan people. All those regions will be united under 1 Great Kurdistan.





> Personel Question:
> Do you want to live as a member of Yezidi minority in Kurdistan or prefer to live in a smaller country with Persian Zoroastrian as majority.


I do prefer a federal Ezdi state within Great Kurdistan. A federal Ezdi State within Great Kurdistan should have its own religious holidays and its own rules in accordance to the Ezdi religion. Also, I do believe in an 'Aryan Union' with the Persians.

I hope that in the far future, after Persians become normal, Kurdistan and Persia will unite and form a some kind of confederation, like the EU, but only between Iranian people. I'm actually interested in the 'Iranian' world and not in the 'Western' world.





> Aryan God ??? Wasn't your god create all humankind.


According to my people there is only 1 GOD, but GOD created Kurds separatly from the rest of the mankind. God also created 7 angels. 1 of those angels is Melek Taus. He is a chief (boss) of those other 6 angels. Kurds (Ezdi) are people of the Melek Taus (chief of 7 angels). But by Aryan God I meant 'Melek Taus'. According to our mythology Melek Taus is the ruler of our world, our 'reality'. There are 7 dimensions or 7 'realities' and Melek Taus is the ruler of our 'dimension'/reality/world.

I know religion can be very confusing, but I want and choose to believe in it.

----------


## Goga

> I think Kurds deserve to have their proper state(s) if it's really democratic, for today political and ethnic reasons. I'm sincere and I'm upset when I saw the big states helping them here and leave their brethren die there, for real politic.
> Do'nt take real politic as a model: it's shit. But I don't care too much about your far past full of honors and purity and what i know. As other people on the earth, your ancestors had blood on their hands (as my own helas). Let's take of past the better, let's defend (y)our rights to independant cultures, but let's leave all these ancient "glory" in the rubbish pots of History; 
> NO offense Goga. I would be glad if Kurds had their state, even more if they try to push their society towards the kind of evolution I suppose I'm seeing in some parts of Kurdistan (better place to women than in Arabic lands?).


I know what you mean. But his ridiculous ideas deserve ridiculous answers. 

I mean we have a scientific evidence that Kurds are antive to Kurdistan and can be linked to the ancient people like the Medes who lived in Kurdistan. I mean, nowadays Kurds are very similar to the Copper-Iron Age Iranians. Iron Age started in Kurdistan maybe 1300 BC. The Medes are from the same Iron Age. At the end of the 2nd millennium BC the Median tribes came into existence in Kurdistan (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau). And I'm similar to those folks. How is it even possible after more than 3000 years I'm practically the same as those Iron Age Medes. I LOVE science, because of science I can trace my roots back all the way back to the Medes era.


Thanks to LeBrok, HarappaWorld:

*Admixture:*
*Goga*

*Iranian 
Iron Age*
*Iranian
**Chalcolithic*




Caucasian
40,84

47.6
49.91




Baloch
27,86

29.17
37,82




SW-Asian
13,9

13.43
10.88




NE-Euro
3,92

3.01
0




Mediterranean
8,27

6.66
0




S-Indian
2,23

0
1.05




Siberian
1,08

0
0




W-African
0

0.11
0.33




SE-Asian
0,57

0
0




Beringian
0

0
0




NE-Asian
0

0
0




Papuan
0,36

0.35
0




American
0,98

0
0




San
0

0
0




E-African
0

0
0




Pygmy
0

0.03
0






Goga = post-modern Western Iranians
Iranian Iron Age = ancient Western Iranians / the Medes
Iranian Chalcolithic = Leya-Tepe folks / Sumerian Ubaid period

And some people come and claim that Kurds and Turks are similar. That would mean that Turks are also from the Medes, lol. I mean Turks. What have Turks to do with the ancient Median Magi, Median language etc. Or with the Sumerians who found complex system of algebra/metrology/geometry (advanced mathematics)..


My answer to them is that Kurds belong to an Iranian (/Aryan) PKK race. PKK is Kurdish. Kurds are Aryan. PKK is Aryan. Do Turks also belong to an Aryan PKK race as Kurds? WHAT, are Turks also Aryan PKK like Kurds???


PKK = Kurdish people. Power to the people!

----------


## Boreas

> Good point! Iran is Western Iranian, while Afghanistan is Eastern Iranian. Tajikistan is semi Iranian since in Tajikistan live many Uzbek folks. Pakistan is actually mostly part of the Indian world. The only difference is that Pakistan is Islamic, while India is Hindu.
> 
> So, there is only 1 West Iranian independent state. And even that state is multi cultural.


Did you look at Turkic States from that perspective?

You said 




> Yes, you know why? Because Turks have already many states in Central Asia: Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Is it not ENOUGH???


but only Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan are South Turkic / Oghuz countries (lingustical). 

*Turkey:* Same as Iran, also Turkey is a multi cultural state (What were you said before 30million Kurds in Turkey-All Turkey is less then 80 million),

*Azerbaijan:* More then half of Azeri people live in Iran. 

*Turkmenistan: 

*Tajikistan:	*Tajik 84.3%*, Uzbek 13.8% (includes Lakai, Kongrat, Katagan, Barlos, Yuz), other 2% (includes Kyrgyz, Russian, Turkmen, Tatar, Arab) 
Turkmenistan: *Turkmen 85%*, Uzbek 5%, Russian 4%, other 6%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2075.html





> Kurdish is a language on it own. It has its own 'group'. All Kurdish dialect/languages are part of the separate Kurdish group. I don't understand Farsi at all, although many words are similar to Kurdish so I do understand only words..


I know that Zaza people can't understand Kurmancı, what about Sorani people?




> Don't know much about Seljuks, but their roots and language were Turanic, rooted in Central Asia.


It is like, I am living in Istanbul but don't know Byzantine.  :Good Job:  

Culture is huge area language is just a branch of it.




> All Kurmanji Kurds are Ezdi Kurds. Islam was imposed on them, they are not real Muslims.


So, all Turks are tengrist, there still tengristic behaviour under their islam, İslam was imposed on them. 




> But the Yezidism is an *ethnoreligion*. Yezidism is part of our Kurdish ethnicity, our Kurdishness.


ı know, and ı find it interesting. Such as some Kurds and Turks are using word Alevi, instead of their nationality.




> I do prefer a federal Ezdi state within Great Kurdistan. A federal Ezdi State within Great Kurdistan should have its own religious holidays and its own rules in accordance to the Ezdi religion. Also, I do believe in an 'Aryan Union' with the Persians.


What about sons of Tur?




> According to my people there is only 1 GOD, but GOD created Kurds separatly from the rest of the mankind. God also created 7 angels. 1 of those angels is Melek Taus. He is a chief (boss) of those other 6 angels. Kurds (Ezdi) are people of the Melek Taus (chief of 7 angels). But by Aryan God I meant 'Melek Taus'. According to our mythology Melek Taus is the ruler of our world, our 'reality'. There are 7 dimensions or 7 'realities' and Melek Taus is the ruler of our 'dimension'/reality/world.
> 
> I know religion can be very confusing, but I want and choose to believe in it.


Thanks for the info  :Good Job:

----------


## Goga

> I know that Zaza people can't understand Kurmancı, what about Sorani people?


Not sure what you are trying to say, but Farsi is a SOUTHWestern Iranian lanuage. While Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian language. All Kurdic dialects are Northwestern, including Zazaki/Gorani and Sorani.

Kurmanji, Feyli, Gorani/Zazaki, Sorani are all dialects evolved from proto-Kurdic, NorthWest Iranian. All of them have the same roots. But because of the mountains and geography there is a variation of dialects within a pan-Kurdic group.

You can see this everywheren, from Germany to Italy. I mean in Italy people in Southern Italy speak their own local Italian dialect. People from northern Italy have hard times to understand it. Even in a such a small flat country as Holland there are many dialects..

----------


## Boreas

> Not sure what you are trying to say, but Farsi is a SOUTHWestern Iranian lanuage. While Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian language. All Kurdic dialects are Northwestern, including Zazaki/Gorani and Sorani.
> 
> Kurmanji, Feyli, Gorani/Zazaki, Sorani are all dialects evolved from proto-Kurdic, NorthWest Iranian. All of them have the same roots. But because of the mountains and geography there is a variation of dialects within a pan-Kurdic group.
> 
> You can see this everywheren, from Germany to Italy. I mean in Italy people in Southern Italy speak their own local Italian dialect. People from northern Italy have hard times to understand it. Even in a such a small flat country as Holland there are many dialects..


Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.

Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division. 



Zazaki is more more different. 

Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages

NORTHWEST-IRANIAN:
*Hyrkanian Group:*
Balōčī, Sangesarī; Goranī, Zaza (Dımılki)
*Karmanian Group:* 
Kurdish (Kurmanjī, Soranī, South-Kurdish), Sivandī
*Medo-Caspian Group:*
Gīlakī, Māzenderānī, Semnāni, Sorcheī; Tāleshī, Āsarī

http://www.zazaki.net/haber/the-zaza...eople-1131.htm

----------


## firetown

That is pretty interesting especially since Roman historian Tacitus once wrote about the "White Aethiopians" assuming they came from the region of India. Would also explain the 6% y-DNA Chinese cluster to a degree. Do you have any updated list that you consider accurate when it comes to the frequencies worldwide?

----------


## Goga

> Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.
> 
> Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division. 
> 
> 
> 
> Zazaki is more more different. 
> 
> Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages
> ...


Italian DIALECTS!









Same can be said about Kurdish DIALECTS. All those Kurdish DIALECTS are part of the Kurdish language. All of them stem from proto-Kurdic. That's why we call all of them 'Kurdish' LANGUAGES.

----------


## Goga

German DIALECTS!









Same can be said about Kurdish DIALECTS. All those Kurdish DIALECTS (Zazaki/Gorani, Sorani, Kurmanji, Feyli) are part of the Kurdish language. All of them stem from proto-Kurdic. That's why we call them all 'Kurdish' LANGUAGES. Zazaki & Gorani are as much Kurdish as Kurmanji.

That's why Great Kurdistan has to be a federation like Germany.

----------


## Sile

> Accent and Diaelcts are different. If there is a different just in pronounsation it is accent. However if there is also differences in grammer, it is dialect.
> 
> Sorani is grammerly different then Kurmanji (Gender İssue) and Zaza language is more different then both (check my language tree, Zazaki became an unique branch before Sorani-Kurmanji division. 
> 
> 
> 
> Zazaki is more more different. 
> 
> Even this tree is controversial. Some scientist put Gorani-Zazaki branch a place different then Kurdic languages
> ...


The Zaza people classify themselves as kurds ................they originate from south Caspian area , ancient Proto-Medes , they live mostly around west of lake Van and around susan. They have as one of their main haplogroup is T-M184 

*Zaza belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. From the point of view of the spoken language, its closest relatives are Mazandarani, Hewrami, Gilaki and other Caspian languages. However, the classification of Zaza has been an issue of political discussion. It is sometimes classified as a subdialect of Kurdish.[7][8][9][10] The majority of Zaza-speakers in Turkey identify themselves as ethnic Kurds.[11][12]


*Evliya Çelebi explicity included Zaza among the Kurdish dialects; Kurdish Alevis, however, he often brought together with their Turkish co-religionists and the Safavids under the label of "Kızılbaş".

----------


## Goga

> The Zaza people classify themselves as kurds ................they originate from south Caspian area , ancient Proto-Medes , they live mostly around west of lake Van and around susan. They have as one of their main haplogroup is T-M184


Genetically Zazaki Kurds are the same as other Kurds. I don't know why some folks try to make Zazaki a separate language, but Zazaki is as much Kurdish as Kurmanji, since both are evolved from proto-Kurdic language. Zazaki is just 1 of the separate dialects of pan-Kurdish Language.


" _Our results also do not support the hypothesis of the origin of the Zazaki –speaking group being in northern Iran; genetically they are more similar to other Kurdish groups.

Genetically, it turned out that Zazaki speakers overall group quite closely with other Kurdish groups, and with their geographic neighbours from the South Caucasus for mtDNA, and with Kurmanji-T for the Y-SNP haplogroups. The previous hypothesis of a close relationship of the Zaza people to populations from northern Iran (MacKenzie, 1962) therefore does not gain genetic support, although the genetic evidence of course does not preclude a northern Iranian origin for the Zazaki language itself._ "

http://mid-atlanticroots.com/familyh...h%20Groups.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00174.x/full

----------


## Sile

> Genetically Zazaki Kurds are the same as other Kurds. I don't know why some folks try to make Zazaki a separate language, but Zazaki is as much Kurdish as Kurmanji, since both are evolved from proto-Kurdic language. Zazaki is just 1 of the separate dialects of pan-Kurdish Language.
> 
> 
> " _Our results also do not support the hypothesis of the origin of the Zazaki –speaking group being in northern Iran; genetically they are more similar to other Kurdish groups.
> 
> Genetically, it turned out that Zazaki speakers overall group quite closely with other Kurdish groups, and with their geographic neighbours from the South Caucasus for mtDNA, and with Kurmanji-T for the Y-SNP haplogroups. The previous hypothesis of a close relationship of the Zaza people to populations from northern Iran (MacKenzie, 1962) therefore does not gain genetic support, although the genetic evidence of course does not preclude a northern Iranian origin for the Zazaki language itself._ "
> 
> http://mid-atlanticroots.com/familyh...h%20Groups.pdf
> 
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00174.x/full


ok

but this paper below is also a view on the area

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

----------


## Goga

> ok
> 
> but this paper below is also a view on the area
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html


Yeah, but Armenians and Kurds lived next to each other before the Armenian Genocide comitted by the Ottoman Turks. Actually, 75% of my (Ezdi Kurdish) ancestors came from Wan-Kars region. In the past there were many Ezdi villages, nowadays there are 0. Everyone who was not a Muslim was killed if he/she didn't fled to the Russian Empire at that time. Armenians were Christians, my people were Ezdi Kurds. Turkish Muslims also comitted a genocided on my people. Hundreds of thousands Ezdi Kurds were massacred during the genocide. 

Kurds, Armenians and Greeks lived next to each other. But when Greeks, Armenians and Ezdi Kurds were killed, deported or fled their areas, the only people that stayed were 2-3 million Kurds. Kurds were considered as Muslims by Turks, and therefore not really dangerous. The Kurdish population grew the last 100 years to more than 30 million Kurds in Northern Kurdistan, whle Armenians disappeared.

What I'm trying to say is that Kurds were always native to Northern Kurdistan, and they did't came from Iran. The issue is that Armenians were klled and outrooted from Anatolia untill they disappeasred completely in Northern Kurdistan. And because of this situation the Kurds became an absolute majority in Northern Kurdistan. Kurds didn't come from anywhere, they just made many children and their population was grown, while Armenian populations just died out because of the genocide comitted by the Muslim Ottoman Turks. But Kurds alwasy have been living in Northern Kurdistan.


It is like the Holocaust in Poland. If millions of Jews were not killed in Poland, there would be a huge population of the Jews in Poland.

----------


## Boreas

> *Zaza belongs to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. From the point of view of the spoken language, its closest relatives are Mazandarani, Hewrami, Gilaki and other Caspian languages. However, the classification of Zaza has been an issue of political discussion. It is sometimes classified as a subdialect of Kurdish.[7][8][9][10] The majority of Zaza-speakers in Turkey identify themselves as ethnic Kurds.[11][12]
> **
> *Evliya Çelebi explicity included Zaza among the Kurdish dialects; Kurdish Alevis, however, he often brought together with their Turkish co-religionists and the Safavids under the label of "Kızılbaş".


True information is here. Thanks Sile

Lingustically, Zazaki has close relation with some other iranic languages, not Kurmanji or Sorani. Of cource all of the North Western Iranan languages but there are different branches in it.

If they call themself Kurd, it is historical-political.

and they have also Alevi/Kızılbaş term is also very common. Sometimes religion and ethicity mix in the each other as in Ezidi.

----------


## Goga

> 


This tree is wrong on many levels. According to this tree Kurdish is a *South* West Iranian language and evolved from the Middle Persian, lol. This is wrong big time.

Kurds are the Medes and NOT Persians. Although in the past there were not so much differences between Persians and the Medes.

Kurdish is a *NORTH* Western Iranian language. And it is NOT from the Middle Persian. I give you a very simple reason. Kurdish has an ergative contruction, while Middle Persian largely lost ergative case-marking, but preserve ergative verb-agreement. Modern Farsi doesn't have any ergative in it anymore at all.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/article...e-construction


A language can't lose and regain ergativity back again.


Kurdish is a much more pure and archaic West Iranian language than Farsi. Actually it is maybe even the most purest and archaic language of the whole Iranic and Indic & Dardic language branch.

----------


## Goga

This is the best tree for Kurdish, made by Kurds and not by Persians, Arabs and Turks, lol.





http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/159

http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

----------


## Goga

About Zazaki/Dimili dialect.

http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/47



It has been said that most Kurds spoke a Dimilí dialect at one point in the past. But one of the Kurmanji tribes became very strong & powerfull and Kurmanji dialect became more popular in Kurdistan and most Kurds shifted to Kurmanji dialect. Kurmanji is majority nowadays. Only Kurds in *peripheral* areas of Kurdistan continued to speak Zazaki/Dimili/Gorani. That's why we see Kurds speaking Zazaki/Dimili/Gorani only in *peripheral* *NorthWestern* parts and *SouthEastern* parts of Kurdistan.

----------


## Boreas

> This tree is wrong on many levels. According to this tree Kurdish is a *South* West Iranian language and evolved from the Middle Persian, lol. This is wrong big time.


It doesn't say something like that. Evoling Middle Persian???, not try to add something buddy. It says that Kurdish and Persian devision, even before Old Persian.  :Good Job:  

*Kurdish, Baloci and Persian coming from seperate lines in the map.* I guess South West Iranian term is also eyes mistake. Because of narrow place it seems like on Kurdish. The real South West Irainan Languages are Persian, tajik, Dari etc. and their connection can be seen in the map.




> This is the best tree for Kurdish, made by Kurds and not by Persians, Arabs and Turks, lol.


That is also reason why I shouldn't believe it but Zazaki position seems just add into it later. Even not in main Northen-Central-Soutn Kurdish branches.

If it is an undeniable certain truth, everybody should agree on it, but not. 


Good detailed language tree of all indo-european languages

http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/zaza1244

Accepting Turkificated people is easy but why it is not easy to accept Kurdificated ones.

----------


## Goga

No way, that map is wrong and misleading!




> Accepting Turkificated people is easy but why it is not easy to accept Kurdificated ones.


Huh? that's not really an issue. At the first place Zazaki Kurds are like all other Kurds NorthWest Iranian people. They belong to the same ethnicity as Kurds. Nobody is trying to change their race.

Turkification means that Turks are trying to change peoples race into Turkic race, and try to asimilate them and change their DNA and let forget them their roots.

There is no Kurd who is trying to 'assimilate' any Zazaki, change their DNA or change their language. We love ALL of our Kurdish dialects. We are proud of it! Like Ezdi Kurds, Zazaki Kurds will get their own federation within Kurdistan. Kurds are helping Zazaki Kurds to save their language and identity.

Zazaki DNA is identical to the DNA of other Kurds. Racially speaking they ARE Kurds.

Their language is interesting, but of all Kurdish dialects it is the most similar to Gorani dialect. Zazaki is like Gorani. I mean when everybody is considering GOrani Kurds as Kurds, why should we not consider Zazaki Kurds also as Kurds. Gorani and Zazaki are the same people.

And Gorani Kurds have always have been considering themselves as Kurds. Zazaki are like Gorani. Gorani are very proud Kurds and never took any distance from other Kurds. Gorani Kurds contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in SouthEast Kurdistan.

Zazaki Kurds are like Gorani Kurds. Zazaki Kurds also contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in Northern Kurdistan. The most patriotic & nationalistic Kurds of Northern Kurdistan are Zazaki Kurds. Zazaki Kurds are taking the highest positions within PKK. Many of our PKK leaders are Zazaki Kurds. They are true warriors and they sacrificed a lot for Great Kurdistan. Many Zazaki Kurds are in Qandil now and they are figinting with great passion against the Turkish state.

Zazaki, Gorani Kurds are as much Kurds as I'm am. Some Zazaki Kurds say that they are own nation, like some Ezdi Kurds say that Ezdi are not Kurds. But this has to do with politics and less with dialect.
Like Ezdi Kurds, some Zazaki Kurds are angry at Sunni Muslim Kurds. Those who are angry at Sunni Kurds belong mostly to an Alevi sect. In the ancient times native Zazaki religion was very similar to the Yezidism. They also believed in Angels and had the same sacred days.

As an Kurmnaji Ezdi Kurd I do understand why some Zaaki Kurds are angry at Sunni Kurds. I can understand their feelings, I'm also angry at Sunni Kurds. But no matter how angry some Zazaki (Alevi) Kurds or Ezdi Kurds are at Sunni Muslim Kurds, we are still racially speaking all ethnic Kurds.


I love all types of Kurds. It is our richness. If they consider themselves as Kurds, then who am I to deny their Kurdishness?


Btw, many Zaza Kurds don't speak Dimili (Zazaki), but they speak Kurmanji as their native language.

----------


## Boreas

> No way, that map is wrong and misleading!


I told you, your thesis about the map is totaly wrong. You just misjudge it because you looked rapidly. It won't say that Kurdish is coming for Persian. They were seperate line. 

I won't believe your thesis just because you told me it is not a like that. SORRY




> At the first place Zazaki Kurds are like all other Kurds NorthWest Iranian people. They belong to the same ethnicity as Kurds.


Yes they are speaking NorthWest Iranian language as other non Kurd nations (Caspians)




> Their language is interesting, but of all Kurdish dialects it is the most similar to Gorani dialect. Zazaki is like Gorani. I mean when everybody is considering GOrani Kurds as Kurds, why should we not consider Zazaki Kurds also as Kurds. Gorani and Zazaki are the same people.
> 
> And Gorani Kurds have always have been considering themselves as Kurds. Zazaki are like Gorani. Gorani are very proud Kurds and never took any distance from other Kurds. Gorani Kurds contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in SouthEast Kurdistan.
> 
> Zazaki Kurds are like Gorani Kurds. Zazaki Kurds also contributed heavily to our Kurdish culture and history, especially in Northern Kurdistan. The most patriotic & nationalistic Kurds of Northern Kurdistan are Zazaki Kurds. Zazaki Kurds are taking the highest positions within PKK. Many of our PKK leaders are Zazaki Kurds. They are true warriors and they sacrificed a lot for Great Kurdistan. Many Zazaki Kurds are in Qandil now and they are figinting with great passion against the Turkish state.
> 
> Zazaki, Gorani Kurds are as much Kurds as I'm am.


It is funny you are using Gorani people. Zazaki and Gorani languages are both consider different branch of Kurdish.





> I love all types of Kurds. It is our richness. If they consider themselves as Kurds, then who am I to deny their Kurdishness?


Exactly, just people themselves can agree to it. Even that means seperation between Zaza people. 

Thanks to you, I found Armenian linguist Sevan Nisanyan opinion about the issue. Now I am more sure about my thought.
http://www.ntv.com.tr/turkiye/zazaca...K0KKbKURVg-TNQ (Turkish)

He is far from Turkish and Kurdish pro-nationalism.

----------


## Goga

I hope this is my last reply on this issue. *This discussion is useless*.

Armenian, lol?! Armenians are the first people who try to divide Ezdi Kurds from other Kurds. I don't see any difference between Armenian and Turks in regard to Kurdish race and Kurdish issue. I'm done. You can’t change the reality. Zaza Kurds are ethnic Kurds and they (majority andtheir leadership) consider themselves to be Kurds.

I'm an Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd. I know what persecution by Muslims is. I do consider Zazaki people as my people. Like me and other Ezdi, also Zazaki are also unique tribe within a Kurdish race. I'm not trying to make them like me. I want them to stay who they are, because they are unique, like me. Evert unique KURDISH subculture needs to be cherished. It is our pride to have so many different flavours in our culture. This is what makes us Aryan people. That's why I'm sure they will have their own federal state within Great Kurdistan. Like there will a federal Ezdixan (Ezdi state) within 1 Great Kurdistan, from Dersim, Amed down to Mehabad and Kermanshah in eastern Kurdistan


Zazaki (Dimili) & Gorani are part of the Pahlawani group. Kurdish Pahlawani group has been somehow more mixed with the language of the Parthians. While Kurmanji and Sorani are more pure dialects of the Medes.

Kurmanji & Sorani = modern Median
Dimili (Zazaki) & Gorani = Median + a little bit of Parthian


It is how it is and nobody can do anything about it. I'm not trying to convince anybody. I'm just saying that Kurds are not idiots and know who they are and know very well who is one of them and who is their enemy.

Bye!

----------


## Boreas

> I hope this is my last reply on this issue. *This discussion is useless*.


I agree, it is useless




> Armenian, lol?! Armenians are the first people who try to divide Ezdi Kurds from other Kurds. I don't see any difference between Armenian and Turks in regard to Kurdish race and Kurdish issue.


My Brain is gone.

Armenian logic; Kurds = Turks
Turk logic; Kurds = Armenian
Kurd logic; Armenian = Turks

You gave me a good story  :Grin: 





> I'm done. You can’t change the reality. Zaza Kurds are ethnic Kurds and they (majority andtheir leadership) consider themselves to be Kurds.


Neither you can't change the reality. I have Zaza friends who say that they are firstly Alevi. They also hate muslim Kurds as well and have no sympathy against Ezidism or Ezidi Kurds. 




> I'm an Ezdi Kurmanji Kurd. I know what persecution by Muslims is.


As I said, I am not an offical muslim. Keep your ideas about muslim with you. They are not revelant in this topic.




> I do consider Zazaki people as my people. Like me and other Ezdi, also Zazaki are also unique tribe within a Kurdish race. I'm not trying to make them like me. I want them to stay who they are, because they are unique, like me. Evert unique KURDISH subculture needs to be cherished. It is our pride to have so many different flavours in our culture. This is what makes us Aryan people. That's why I'm sure they will have their own federal state within Great Kurdistan. Like there will a federal Ezdixan (Ezdi state) within 1 Great Kurdistan, from Dersim, Amed down to Mehabad and Kermanshah in eastern Kurdistan


Are you ready to hear that some of them prefer to live with side by side Turk Alevi.




> Zazaki (Dimili) & Gorani are part of the Pahlawani group. Kurdish Pahlawani group has been somehow more mixed with the language of the Parthians. While Kurmanji and Sorani are more pure dialects of the Medes.
> 
> Kurmanji & Sorani = modern Median
> Dimili (Zazaki) & Gorani = Median + a little bit of Parthian


I don't deny that Kurds are the closest nations to them.

As in Bulgarian - Macedonian example you can't stop the born of nations or you can't stop decleration of a country. Iraq Kurdistan is nearest example.

----------


## hgfds

> European principles of freedoms and independence was forged in centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars. Europe today is a small continent but with 50 nations. If anyone, Europe understands importance of freedom and independence for any peoples.


The issue is not that your principles of freedoms is forged in centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars or not, its that when these centuries of national and ethnic conflicts and wars happened when Europe was and still is first world sovereign nations, what ever political direction a nation takes it is a result of a will of its people without outside influence (through indoctrination) and a general intention and understanding that they are will part of the whole european scheme, and not to be manipulated by other countries into being used against their neighbors.

I used to say the same years ago when I used to see conflicts in another country between two groups of people in the new, they should just let it go and give the other group the freedom to do whatever they want, now I know I was wrong.




> You are not in position to teach us, but to learn from us.


The hell I won't!!!




> Now, this is Turkish propaganda. Such strong unity of thoughts doesn't exist. Especially in ethnically mixed country like Turkey, Syria or Iraq .


I meant other than kurds. Others = Turks and non Turks (the region)
I'm afraid that you are deeply misguided if you think this is Turkish propaganda. This is real.





> You think European people are not intelligent enough to have their own independent thought and need oligarchy to decide for them?!!!


Thats a logical fallicy (irrelevant conclusion), saying that a financial oligarchy exists in the west does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that the reason for their existence is a lack of intelligence on the part of Europeans.

See a documentary on Youtube called "A Decade of Deception". Its a documentary made by respected experts in Structural Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, and History. They give their professional opinion on the official account of 9/11. Now give me an interruptive model that can explain 9/11 better than a conspiring oligarchy? on the existence of which 9/11 is not my main evidence, but its an easy example this is why I use it.




> Good, they should get their independence too. Why the heck it scares you so much?!





> Imagine Scotland have referendum about its independance. Oh, wait, you don't need to, they actually did have it in real life. People decided about their future! Imagine that! If Britten allow it for Scots, why Turkey can't allow it for Kurds?



Fight the straw man as long as you want, but that won't be addressing my point. I gave a scenario in which the independence of Scotland is one factor among many: the west being a 3rd world countries, 1st world countries conspiring against them (wars, coups, control of western armies, control of western governments...etc), Scotland being used to divide other western countries to create small cantons and put puppets on them...etc

You might still say that you would let Scotland leave, but you would be foolish. Nonetheless I don't think that this will be your opinion when it really happens, I use to say the same thing about other countries when I used to see them fight in the News, but now I know how its like.




> Again, please learn how it is done in free western world.


An argument does not become right by merely it being western, you have to logically prove it. 
I say this because you did the same thing in your first post 




> B*y understanding of Western free and democratic world,*any ethnic group should have a right to separate into own independent country, by means of referendum.








> They are actually quite genetically distinct, especially from West Turks who are genetically more like Greeks


Kurds themselves are genetically distinct from each other from area to another, very diverse group.
But I said almost identical, not completely identical. Lets use the word similar if thats better 





> There are also some enclaves in Turkey where people have strong genetic similarities with central Asian Turkic populations.Remember, you are posting on Genetic Anthropology forums


Rare enclaves, central Asian DNA in Anatolian is very low (at most 4-10% at most in average)





> Regardless, genetic differences or similarities are not a prerequisite for independence or against it, for any population


I know, I think its primitive group yourself based on race or genetics, like an animal, rather than the higher level of connection (intellect: ideology, values and culture) But I say geniality for the sake of the argument in case someone thinks its important 





> It is time you should learn this.


Thats very condescending of you. My disagreement with you is not because I didn't learn from your glorious endless sea of wisdom and "It is time I should learn this" Rather, I understand your point of view but disagree with it. I gave the criteria that I think justifies a call for independence.
i.e: Religion, culture, ideology, social habits, geography..etc. and most importantly not being used by your enemies against you after you gain independence. 

The reason? I gave logical reasoning to justify iti.e: we are in a state of war and suffering from western oligarchy aggression, thus cannot afford to act like we are in state of peace, there is a place and time for everything. Otherwise the aggression is not going to stop and every group will be indoctrinated with gross, ignorant, reactionary, historically delusional, and hateful ideology to divide us even based on the smallest differences such as shoe size. Instead of replying in a logical way you state your opinions as if you doing so makes it self-evident. 

Which also applies to this: 




> Once again, you should learn from Europeans, and stop teaching us.

----------


## hgfds

> Yeah, but Armenians and Kurds lived next to each other before the Armenian Genocide comitted by the Ottoman Turks. Actually, 75% of my (Ezdi Kurdish) ancestors came from Wan-Kars region. In the past there were many Ezdi villages, nowadays there are 0. Everyone who was not a Muslim was killed if he/she didn't fled to the Russian Empire at that time. Armenians were Christians, my people were Ezdi Kurds. Turkish Muslims also comitted a genocided on my people. Hundreds of thousands Ezdi Kurds were massacred during the genocide. 
> 
> Kurds, Armenians and Greeks lived next to each other. But when Greeks, Armenians and Ezdi Kurds were killed, deported or fled their areas, the only people that stayed were 2-3 million Kurds. Kurds were considered as Muslims by Turks, and therefore not really dangerous. The Kurdish population grew the last 100 years to more than 30 million Kurds in Northern Kurdistan, whle Armenians disappeared.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that Kurds were always native to Northern Kurdistan, and they did't came from Iran. The issue is that Armenians were klled and outrooted from Anatolia untill they disappeasred completely in Northern Kurdistan. And because of this situation the Kurds became an absolute majority in Northern Kurdistan. Kurds didn't come from anywhere, they just made many children and their population was grown, while Armenian populations just died out because of the genocide comitted by the Muslim Ottoman Turks. But Kurds alwasy have been living in Northern Kurdistan.
> 
> 
> It is like the Holocaust in Poland. If millions of Jews were not killed in Poland, there would be a huge population of the Jews in Poland.



And when this "genocide" happened they moved to Syria less than a few decades ago, and now they want to claim these regions in Syria for them :Rolleyes:

----------


## Sile

> And when this "genocide" happened they moved to Syria less than a few decades ago, and now they want to claim these regions in Syria for them


When is the world going to give them justice............there are over 25 million Kurds who have no nation, it does seem ridiculous , don't you agree .

Why we listening to Turkey ?............when the Turks have only been in Turkey for 1000years and only comprise of 15% of the Turkish population ? .............The whole UN is based on bribes it seems.

----------


## Sile

> 


I had to fit Venetian in these sentences

Mejo un ovo anco` ke un galina doman

----------


## Boreas

> Why we listening to Turkey ?............when the Turks have only been in Turkey for 1000years


Haa, Man who lives in the New World Speaks.  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  

After thinking Anglo-Saksons have only been in Britain for 1500 years

After thinking the history of Slavs in the Balkans

Have I mentiond Russians?





> and only comprise of 15% of the Turkish population ?







> .............The whole UN is based on bribes it seems.


After the thing who is the member of United Nations Security Council and even the members of the same block making shity things to each other. It makes sence

US-France
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...acceptable-nsa

----------


## Angela

Maybe we should get the definitions down. Modern day Turks are Anatolians with some minority Turkic ancestry which arrived more recently, i.e. in the last 1000 years. That's hardly a reason to say that modern day Turks are newcomers to Turkey.

----------


## hgfds

I'm not in the business of bashing fantasies (Turkish nationalists and Kurds), but In my opinion that Kurdishnnes, same as Anatolian Turkishness, are relatively (in relative to the age of history) new identities and a result of mixture of not only multiple races but even ethnicities.

I don't know if I'm making sense anthropologically, but I think that genetically and culturally we can see relative homogeneity and continuity among people in places such as Europe, Egypt, North Africa, Sub Saharan Africa, east asians, Semites...etc. Yes maybe initially in the beginning there were different (although relatively limited) races/ethnicities but then merged to form a new culture/ethnicity/race early in human history. Europeans were mainly Haplogroup I and then R1 entered early in history on the line, they merged and local cultures formed. North Africans still show hight frequencies of Haplogroup E1b1b, 75% in Morocco. Excluding new influence we find that they had very hight frequencies of that maybe with other minor influences from semitic world. Also Egyptian civilization is an authentic civilization from its indigenous people, same fore east asians, semitic, African...etc

So my observation is that later civilizations that emerged later were a mixture of these primary civilizations in many ways, manly genetically and culturally. Similar to the primary colors (Red, Yellow, Blue) that creates all other colors. For example, I'm proud of Turanic heritage, but I know that I only have little Turanic blood. So before a 1000 years before that Turanic culture dominated my ancestors in Anatolia, what culture they belonged to? Maybe part of Anatolia was European (East Roman) and the other part was influenced by Semitic (Arab conquest) What about before that? I don't know, because turkey is very diverse there is no one racial/cultural/ethnic group that have always lived there. So I think it is difficult to say (My ancestors x thousands of years ago was such and such and i'm their descendants and my culture is a continuation of them) and I don't think that there is anything wrong with that although I know some might not like it


I think this is the same case in Iranian cultures, including Kurdish. It is difficult to pin point an exact ancestor and say that this is my ancestor and I descend from him culturally/racially. Because these cultures are layers upon layers of different races/ethnicities/cultures. Proto-Iranians mixed with the Pre- Iranian people of the iranian plateau and with nearby peoples, including the semites whom's cultures they adopted and inherited. The Proto-Iranians were absorbed by these layers and later was influenced by Greek, Roman and Indian, and to a lesser extent Egyptian culture, and added to them (such as the creation of Zoroastrianism) to create this melting pot that we know as Iranian cultures, most famously the Persian empire. This dynamic of the broad group that we call Iranian cultures continued until recent history. Historians as recent as the islamic era used the word "Kurds" to refer nomads of all different groups and ethnicities, then relatively recently they became one group.


So to pin point one or two groups of people out of this melting pot and say that they created all or most of this, and further more to try to show a continuity from the Sumerians and claim that the latter group was simply Proto-Kurdish (or any other group) minus the Indo-Iranian component (which is represented genetically by the Haplogroup R1) is beyond delusional and absurd.

----------


## Yetos

@hgfds

most of times influence works 'vice-versa'

----------


## Sile

> Haa, Man who lives in the New World Speaks.  
> 
> After thinking Anglo-Saksons have only been in Britain for 1500 years
> 
> After thinking the history of Slavs in the Balkans
> 
> Have I mentiond Russians?
> 
> 
> ...


The only reason the turks entered the Isis war is to prevent a Kurdistan being formed, they, the Turks where initially helping ISIS sell there oil, allowing recruits of ISIS to pass etc ......their goal now is to destroy Isis and retain territory held as a land grab on the basis of a a future proposed split up of Syria ..................

----------


## Boreas

> Maybe we should get the definitions down. Modern day Turks are Anatolians with some minority Turkic ancestry which arrived more recently, i.e. in the last 1000 years. That's hardly a reason to say that modern day Turks are newcomers to Turkey.


also modern Turk nationality, is some thing which grow in and feed in Anatolia.

Example Ottoman Archtecture

This is just copy of Hagia Sophia 

or Fes Culture, it is not Turkic or Islamic

----------


## Boreas

> The only reason the turks entered the Isis war is to prevent a Kurdistan being formed, they, the Turks where initially helping ISIS sell there oil, allowing recruits of ISIS to pass etc ......their goal now is to destroy Isis and retain territory held as a land grab on the basis of a a future proposed split up of Syria ..................



1-As ı said many times, Turkey doesn't have that much balls. He can't act ownselves. 

See, Turkish minister going to Israel to improve Israel-Turkey relationship while Israel decides to built more houses on Palestine lands. Did somebody tell Turkey supported Hamas???


This is the politics and it is always Chaotic. 

2-This is not relevant about your previous post which you just talk nonsense

----------


## UNITED KURDiA

> sory 
> Aq qoyunlu 
> kara koyonlu
> the turkmen and azeris,
> also the armenia, 
> so kurds Armenians azeris-turkmen share the same area, also some already state populations like turks syrians
> 
> I know that kurds have *IE* language an old Iranian which *fits in their location* today,
> 
> ...



The Kurds are an Ancient people, "The Medes". More specifically an Indo-European. (Arian Race). Scholars are chasing some archeological relics to find out what happened to the "The Hittites". If the Hittites are Medes and mixed with the Persians in general, then the Kurds are Europeans, because the Hittites came down from Northwest Europe (Germany?) ? and we don't know what happened to them once they vanished in the Anatolia. For your own reference; TURKS are MONGOLIANS, They are originally Chines as we can see their physical appearance. After all, we are all human, and it doesn't matter which race you are Mongolian or Arian Race. We all are God's Children. Peace to the World!

----------


## XipeTotek

> The Kurds are an Ancient people, "The Medes". More specifically an Indo-European. (Arian Race). Scholars are chasing some archeological relics to find out what happened to the "The Hittites". If the Hittites are Medes and mixed with the Persians in general, then the Kurds are Europeans, because the Hittites came down from Northwest Europe (Germany?) ? and we don't know what happened to them once they vanished in the Anatolia. For your own reference; TURKS are MONGOLIANS, They are originally Chines as we can see their physical appearance. After all, we are all human, and it doesn't matter which race you are Mongolian or Arian Race. We all are God's Children. ,Peace to the World!



kurds and persians come from indo european yes. but today they have ethiopian and semitic genes. i think in persian empire have so much mixed with blacks and after arabic peoples.(because arabs invade the persia.) this is why some kurds and persians look like a middle eastern/darker.

and first turks come from native american/siberian peoples. after they are mixed mongolians, uralic, and east iranic peoples. but today turkey turks mostly look like white and aryan race. dna maybe little bit asian and middle eastern and close to greeks dna.

so turks are not aryan race. we are slanted eyes looking japanese/chinese people. we come from asians. but today turkey turks are more aryan.

btw we proud of our asian origins/also aryan origins. we mixed all of them.

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> The Kurds are an Ancient people, "The Medes". More specifically an Indo-European. (Arian Race). Scholars are chasing some archeological relics to find out what happened to the "The Hittites". If the Hittites are Medes and mixed with the Persians in general, then the Kurds are Europeans, because the Hittites came down from Northwest Europe (Germany?) ? and we don't know what happened to them once they vanished in the Anatolia. For your own reference; TURKS are MONGOLIANS, They are originally Chines as we can see their physical appearance. After all, we are all human, and it doesn't matter which race you are Mongolian or Arian Race. We all are God's Children. Peace to the World!



Kurds have a lot of arabic, and Indian genes. As people Kurds are hard core middle easterns. Nothing to do with Europe. Turks also are not Europeans in cultural and racial terms.

----------


## XipeTotek

> Kurds have a lot of arabic, and Indian genes. As people Kurds are hard core middle easterns. Nothing to do with Europe. Turks also are not Europeans in cultural and racial terms.


i really dont see any different syrians and kurds. they are same. but turks are more european than other peoples of middle eastern i think

----------


## Parafarne

If you see E-v13 numbers in Kurdistan its half the Greek percentage so could half or atleast 1/3rd of Kurds be Greek settlers who came to this region when they controled this region for centuries before the Turks came? HG I too is more in this region.

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> i really dont see any different syrians and kurds. they are same. but turks are more european than other peoples of middle eastern i think


Kurds are Iranian stock. There is a wide genetic verity among them since they reside in a large area. But if you see DNA results Kurds posts on internet a large portion of them report at least 10% Indian. And then another large portion Middle Eastern which as you are saying it could be Syrian. As for Turkey been more European. European is a vague term. Its more associated with culture (Christianity) than genes. Cyprus is genetically hard core middle eastern country. They call it European. Malta is North African. They call it European. Albania is a hard core European Country. They call it Turkish. So genes do not matter in being European. Turkey has never been considered European. When Ottomans invaded Europe in 14 century there were plans from Vatican and their circle to Organize and militarily remove ottomans from Europe. Ottomans were considered Asians. The plan never materialized. Albanians believed the the plan and rose in armed resistance.

----------


## Angela

> Kurds are Iranian stock. There is a wide genetic verity among them since they reside in a large area. But if you see DNA results Kurds posts on internet a large portion of them report at least 10% Indian. And then another large portion Middle Eastern which as you are saying it could be Syrian. As for Turkey been more European. European is a vague term. Its more associated with culture (Christianity) than genes. Cyprus is genetically hard core middle eastern country. They call it European. Malta is North African. They call it European. Albania is a hard core European Country. They call it Turkish. So genes do not matter in being European. Turkey has never been considered European. When Ottomans invaded Europe in 14 century there were plans from Vatican and their circle to Organize and militarily remove ottomans from Europe. Ottomans were considered Asians. The plan never materialized. Albanians believed the the plan and rose in armed resistance.


I almost don't know where to start.

Malta is not genetically North African. Only idiots with an agenda would call Albanians Turkish because some of them adopted Islam. Cyprus plots very close to the Middle East, but not quite.

----------


## Boreas

> Its more associated with culture (Christianity) than genes. Cyprus is genetically hard core middle eastern country. They call it European. Malta is North African. They call it European. Albania is a hard core European Country. They call it Turkish. So genes do not matter in being European.


I agree about European-Chrisitanity connections and Cyprus. But Malta, African? You can say Middle Eastern but not Africa. 

"Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage" 
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autos..._country.shtml

Maltese are more Asian then African. 

Using name Turkish for every Muslim was a Middle Age habit which was strong and contiuning till early 20th cen. But not any more, maybe just for extreme nationalist Balkan Christians

----------


## bicicleur

I don't know whether this is correct, but I was told Maltese are non-Muslim ethnic Arabs.
Their language would be Arab.

----------


## davef

> I don't know whether this is correct, but I was told Maltese are non-Muslim ethnic Arabs.
> Their language would be Arab.


They're not Arabs, they're genetically Sicilian who descend from Sicilians who settled there.

----------


## Angela

> I agree about European-Chrisitanity connections and Cyprus. But Malta, African? You can say Middle Eastern but not Africa. 
> 
> "Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage" 
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autos..._country.shtml
> 
> Maltese are more Asian then African. 
> 
> Using name Turkish for every Muslim was a Middle Age habit which was strong and contiuning till early 20th cen. But not any more, maybe just for extreme nationalist Balkan Christians


No, they're not Asian either. 

Any PCA of Europe would show you where they plot, which is a little bit south of Sicilians.



Most of their ancestry derives from the initial settlement of a group of Sicilians on the island. Since then there has been some admixture, but that is the base. The result is that they are a bit more North African and South-west Asian than Sicilians. However, they are NEITHER West Asian nor North African. If that much North African made you North African, then all Spaniards and Portuguese are also North African. 

We've discussed this numerous times on many threads. 

There's even a dedicated thread on their genetics. 

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...=Malta+settled

----------


## bicicleur

> They're not Arabs, they're genetically Sicilian who descend from Sicilians who settled there.


but how did their language originate then, a mixture of Semitic and Latin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_people#Language

----------


## davef

> but how did their language originate then, a mixture of Semitic and Latin?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_people#Language


Yes the language is a mixture of Sicilian, Arabic and a few other languages but they are still genetically Sicilian with a bit more North African and Southwest Asian in them compared to Sicilians, as mentioned.

----------


## Angela

When the Muslims conquered Sicily and held it for about 200 years, they imposed their language, among other things. A certain number of Sicilians, as happened in Spain and Portugal, converted to Islam. They may have adopted a Semitic language as well. The non-converts might have kept their own language, although there is controversy as to whether "their" language was a Latin dialect or a Greek dialect or whether there were both Greek and Latin dialect speakers. Also, it may be that in certain areas even non-converts might have adopted the Semitic dialect, although interspersed with "Sicilian" Latin based terms. It's just not very clear what precisely happened in terms of the language.

The genetics, by contrast, are very clear: they're very similar to Sicilians. 

The source of the additional South-west Asian and North-African is, however, not clear. 

It may be because when the Knights of St. John came from Rhodes and Cyprus, their previous headquarters, they brought servants from those places with them. In later centuries when their raison d'etre had disappeared and they became virtual corsairs attacking and plundering Ottoman and North African shipping, the slaves they took and kept instead of selling admixed with locals. 

In a large population it wouldn't have made a difference, but this was a small, isolated island with a small population, so perhaps it did. There was a Maltese-Australian on 23andme who used to talk about this. One of his very remote ancestresses was a North African slave if I remember correctly.

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## IronSide

This is one strange PCA



in the PCA that Angela posted above, modern West Eurasians were used to construct the PCA, but then the Ancients were *projected,* this is very important, the position of ancients is not accurate, WHG is not closer to Basques than to Bedouins for example :)

in this one I posted (from Lazaridis(2014)) the reverse was done, the PCA was constructed using ancients, but then modern West Eurasians were projected to it, and low and behold they're all clustered in the middle, projection is forcing the projected sample to vary by the ancestry of the samples that were used to construct the PCA, that ancestry could very well be meaningless, look how Papuans are close to Iranians ? or the Karitiana is north of Caucasus ? this is because of ASI and ANE ancestries from Iran and Caucasus.

so when the opposite is done, it is forcing the moderns to vary by the ancestry of the ancients, it reveals that all of them, Europe and West Asia, have ancestry from all three sources.

Europe and West Asia are a continuum, not discrete distinct entities.

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## Angela

In the following PCA (Haber) you can see virtually all modern human populations. There's no projection to cause distortion. 

It's like a tripod. You can see where admixture has taken place. 

Clearly, Armenians and Caucasus people and some Middle Easterners are very close to Europeans. My impression is that they are one stock, but some of the Middle Easterners have some admixture from Central Asia and some from Africa. That's the only difference. (I hope you can enlarge it to see the labels.) It's the North Africans and the Central Asians who pull away from the triangle at the top, which makes sense, because then you're talking about significant admixture, 20% as an average for North Africans.

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## IronSide

This is a beautiful visualization of the world:

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/PCA84pops.html

Sorry if my posts seem to deviate from the discussion on Maltese people, they're meant to address the original question of this thread, are Kurdish people European ? of course not, they're West Asian, but West Asian itself is not that different from European.

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## Boreas

> No, they're not Asian either. 
> 
> Any PCA of Europe would show you where they plot, which is a little bit south of Sicilians.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of their ancestry derives from the initial settlement of a group of Sicilians on the island. Since then there has been some admixture, but that is the base. The result is that they are a bit more North African and South-west Asian than Sicilians. However, they are NEITHER West Asian nor North African. If that much North African made you North African, then all Spaniards and Portuguese are also North African. 
> 
> We've discussed this numerous times on many threads. 
> ...



Sicilians are not a good reference about being European. Maltese West Asian admixture is far more then Central Asian admixture of Turks in Turkey also Sicilian same (they are just a little bit more European) 

West Asian between 20-30%
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif

South West Asian 15-20%
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif

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## Angela

> Sicilians are not a good reference about being European. Maltese West Asian admixture is far more then Central Asian admixture of Turks in Turkey also Sicilian same (they are just a little bit more European) 
> 
> West Asian between 20-30%
> https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif
> 
> South West Asian 15-20%
> https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif


In your dreams, buddy. What? Having a lot of ancestry from early Anatolian farmers makes someone not European? You're more European if you have more descent from black haired, brown skinned WHG or also black haired if lighter half Armenian like Yamnaya types? Yamnaya types, by the way, whose other half is EHG which has East Asian in it. 

You're the ones who got overrun by Iran Neolithic and Central Asians. You changed massively since the early Neolithic. Italians and Spaniards preserved that initial Western Neolithic farmer heritage better. It can't be because Sicilians have more West Asian than the Germans, for example. The Greeks have even more. Maybe they're not European either? What is wrong with you people? They invented Europeanness, they along with Romans.

Or is it because Sicilians and Southern Italians have some North African? They, and the Portuguese and Spaniards, are just as "European" as Finns, for example, or Northern Russians, both of whom have Central Asian, and both of which groups have contributed much, much, less to European civilization.

Who are you to pontificate as to who is "European" enough? The Maltese, I'll have you know, kept the Ottomans out of Europe not only when they directly assaulted the Knights of St. John on Malta, but in many battles in subsequent times. They've more than proved their "Europeanness".

You know, you people are going to have to make up your minds. Half the time you're trying to prove you're as European as Greeks and Southern Italians and Sicilians, and half the time you're following your "Great Leader" back into the dark ages of a Saudi like ultra-orthodoxy. Not very "European" like. I suggest going back and reading Ataturk. 

Make up your frigging minds. You can't have it both ways.

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## Maleth

> I don't know whether this is correct, but I was told Maltese are non-Muslim ethnic Arabs.
> Their language would be Arab.


I would have thought that someone with good genetic knowledge like yourself would not say such absurdities.

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## Maleth

So where do the contemporary Maltese come from? Research carried out in Malta points to just a few hundred miles north. A study published in the _Annals of Human Genetics_ in 2004, on which Felice collaborated, looked at Y chromosome haplogroups found throughout the Mediterranean and identified common population groups. ‘Data on Mitochondrial DNA [from the ongoing _Maltese Genome Project] is also nearly complete but what we have also points in the same direction [as the previous study]: that most contemporary Maltese males and females can trace their ancestry to Sicily and [Southern] Italy around 1,000 years ago,’ reveals Felice. Middle Eastern DNA, including Lebanese DNA, contributed less than 5% to today’s Maltese DNA.

_https://www.um.edu.mt/think/the-hidd...altese-genome/

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## Maleth

> No, they're not Asian either. 
> 
> Any PCA of Europe would show you where they plot, which is a little bit south of Sicilians.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of their ancestry derives from the initial settlement of a group of Sicilians on the island. Since then there has been some admixture, but that is the base. The result is that they are a bit more North African and South-west Asian than Sicilians. However, they are NEITHER West Asian nor North African. *If that much North African made you North African, then all Spaniards and Portuguese are also North African.* 
> 
> We've discussed this numerous times on many threads. 
> ...


Very correct, and lets not forget that a good amount of the so called 'North African' component arrived through Spain and Portugal (not north Africa) as witnessed by a number of popular surnames that arrived from those regions ;)

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## Jovialis

> In your dreams, buddy. What? Having a lot of ancestry from early Anatolian farmers makes someone not European? You're more European if you have more descent from black haired, brown skinned WHG or also black haired if lighter half Armenian like Yamnaya types? Yamnaya types, by the way, whose other half is EHG which has East Asian in it. 
> 
> You're the ones who got overrun by Iran Neolithic and Central Asians. You changed massively since the early Neolithic. Italians and Spaniards preserved that initial Western Neolithic farmer heritage better. It can't be because Sicilians have more West Asian than the Germans, for example. The Greeks have even more. Maybe they're not European either? What is wrong with you people? They invented Europeanness, they along with Romans.
> 
> Or is it because Sicilians and Southern Italians have some North African? They, and the Portuguese and Spaniards, are just as "European" as Finns, for example, or Northern Russians, both of whom have Central Asian, and both of which groups have contributed much, much, less to European civilization.
> 
> Who are you to pontificate as to who is "European" enough? The Maltese, I'll have you know, kept the Ottomans out of Europe not only when they directly assaulted the Knights of St. John on Malta, but in many battles in subsequent times. They've more than proved their "Europeanness".
> 
> You know, you people are going to have to make up your minds. Half the time you're trying to prove you're as European as Greeks and Southern Italians and Sicilians, and half the time you're following your "Great Leader" back into the dark ages of a Saudi like ultra-orthodoxy. Not very "European" like. I suggest going back and reading Ataturk. 
> ...


Well said. It seems some of our members like adjust reality to fit their agenda.

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## IronSide

> You're the ones who got overrun by Iran Neolithic and Central Asians. You changed massively since the early Neolithic. Italians and Spaniards preserved that initial Western Neolithic farmer heritage better. It can't be because Sicilians have more West Asian than the Germans, for example. The Greeks have even more. Maybe they're not European either? What is wrong with you people? They invented Europeanness, they along with Romans.


Overrun by Iran Neolithic and Central Asian is not a bad thing you know, I don't identify with the Natufians only, but also with my ancestors who migrated from the Zagros and Caucasus, our story is their story of migrating to their new homeland.

Your ancestors also come from the Caucasus and the Steppe.

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## Angela

I never meant to imply that it was a bad thing. I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. 

What I object to and have always objected to is this belief prevalent in anthrofora that somehow the descendants of the EEF are less "European" than people who have more WHG. It's absurd. Europeans as a group didn't exist until about 5,000 years ago, when all the major ancestral groups were present in Europe. 

The related mantra is that the more ancestry you have from the Zagros and the Caucasus the less European you are. That's equally absurd. It's also in complete contradiction to the other belief that higher Yamnaya ancestry makes you more European, since Yamnayans were anywhere from 40-50% Caucasus like themselves. Intellect and logical thinking are not hallmarks of the anthrofora world. 

My point to Boreas was simply that in terms of percentages of early Anatolian farmer, there's more of that ancestry left in Europe than there is in Turkey, not that there's anything wrong with having Zagros/Caucasus ancestry. 

This is not the first time that he has tried to play this game where either Turks are Europeans or Greeks/Southern Italians are Turks. There are big genetic differences between the groups. Just look at any PCA. More importantly, being European is as much if not more about culture as it is about genetics. If some Turks want to align themselves with Europe that's fine, but you can't do that and retreat into medieval Islam and its values. They're going to have to choose.

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## davef

> In the following PCA (Haber) you can see virtually all modern human populations. There's no projection to cause distortion. 
> 
> It's like a tripod. You can see where admixture has taken place. 
> 
> Clearly, Armenians and Caucasus people and some Middle Easterners are very close to Europeans. My impression is that they are one stock, but some of the Middle Easterners have some admixture from Central Asia and some from Africa. That's the only difference. (I hope you can enlarge it to see the labels.) It's the North Africans and the Central Asians who pull away from the triangle at the top, which makes sense, because then you're talking about significant admixture, 20% as an average for North Africans.


That one confuses me in many ways; like for example I don't know why Spanish are that close to Armenians. Never seen that before.

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## Angela

> That one confuses me in many ways; like for example I don't know why Spanish are that close to Armenians. Never seen that before.


PCAs take shape depending on the samples included in the run. They show the total relationship between the samples. Every PCA we usually discuss is one either of only Europeans or of West Eurasians. 

This is a "global" PCA, so the relationships will change. It's actually more accurate in a sense.

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## Silesian

As for height Europeans-I have met tall Iranian Kurds 183+/-cm. On the other hand, I have also seen a difference in build stature/ from Near East farmer types Iraq-Assyrian-Turkey-Egypt. One example comparing components- small men with big hearts like Otzi 5 ft 5"+/- cm for example to Yamnaya/Bell Beaker 6ft-6ft 2"range . Also I have seen Near Eastern farmer med component types with light skin- ranging from 5 ft- 5ft 7"with long Torso/ short legs/small hands and feet; might be an evolutionary advantage to hot dry farm like climates.

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## davef

> PCAs take shape depending on the samples included in the run. They show the total relationship between the samples. Every PCA we usually discuss is one either of only Europeans or of West Eurasians. 
> 
> This is a "global" PCA, so the relationships will change. It's actually more accurate in a sense.


Thanks. What confuses me still is how close Armenians are to Southern Europe, aren't they supposed to have a lot of Neolithic Iran and not much European farmer like genes (ok some, but not much)? What is it that binds them with Southern Europe?

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## Angela

> Thanks. What confuses me still is how close Armenians are to Southern Europe, aren't they supposed to have a lot of Neolithic Iran and not much European farmer like genes (ok some, but not much)? What is it that binds them with Southern Europe?


It's the combination of Anatolian farmer genes, Neolithic Iran genes which started arriving in Europe in the late Neolithic, and steppe, which both groups share. The demographic history of the Near East is very complex. Ygorcs has posted a good comment on it but I can't find it at the moment. The Anatolian farmers moved east and north (before a return migration south and west carrying more CHG/Zagros like ancestry.) The Armenians then show steppe ancestry after a certain point. Don't forget, also, that the Armenians got their language from a migration from the Balkans, i.e. southeastern Europe. 

The Caucasus groups are also very close to Europeans. The reason is the "Caucasus" ancestry which they share with Europeans. They also share some Anatolian Neolithic and some steppe. 

The "Caucasus" ancestry in Yamnaya is very similar to Zagros ancestry, however unpalatable that is to certain people.

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## Hauteville

> Sicilians are not a good reference about being European. Maltese West Asian admixture is far more then Central Asian admixture of Turks in Turkey also Sicilian same (they are just a little bit more European) 
> 
> West Asian between 20-30%
> https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif
> 
> South West Asian 15-20%
> https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...-admixture.gif


Surely way more europeans than turks. At least Sicilians and Maltese are in the European side of PCA, while turks are in what they are, MENAs.

33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg

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## davef

Yes, I know they have Anatolian Neolithic, indo Euro and Iran neo genes, but what confuses me still is their overlap with people who have a lot more Anatolian neo genes (Spanish, Italian), than they do. This goes for the Lebanese who plot close to them as well. I would expect their levant Neolithic genes plus their Iran neo genes to pull them further away. I know there's Iran admixture in Europe, it came with the indo Europeans as well as later migrations from the Middle East but levantines/Caucasians have a lot more (as well as a lot more Neolithic Levant). I still don't get why certain levantines/caucasians plot where they do. 

Just a footnote: I'm not "agenda" driven. The idea of caucasians/levantines plotting close to Europeans does not offend or disturb me in any way possible (I know for sure I would score high Caucasus in various tests, im a-ok with that). I'm just asking for clarification. Thank you.

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## Angela

> Yes, I know they have Anatolian Neolithic, indo Euro and Iran neo genes, but what confuses me still is their overlap with people who have a lot more Anatolian neo genes (Spanish, Italian), than they do. This goes for the Lebanese who plot close to them as well. I would expect their levant Neolithic genes plus their Iran neo genes to pull them further away. I know there's Iran admixture in Europe, it came with the indo Europeans as well as later migrations from the Middle East but levantines/Caucasians have a lot more (as well as a lot more Neolithic Levant). I still don't get why certain levantines/caucasians plot where they do. 
> 
> Just a footnote: I'm not "agenda" driven. The idea of caucasians/levantines plotting close to Europeans does not offend or disturb me in any way possible (I know for sure I would score high Caucasus in various tests, im a-ok with that). I'm just asking for clarification. Thank you.


They don't overlap: they're close to each other. They obviously don't appear this close on the West Eurasian PCAs you're used to seeing. When all the world's populations are on a PCA you can see how similar the West Eurasians are to one another, with the Armenians and Caucasus groups particularly close to Europeans. I think Arabian Peninsular alleles, perhaps more heavily "Basal" and SSA pull away some of the other "Middle Eastern" groups. Ironside is writing about it on another thread.

Imagine if you could look at it through a higher resolution lens. The triangle at the top would open up. 

You might want to do some reading on PCAs and how they work.

Remember, too, that they only capture two dimensions. If you want to see all the dimensions there are programs which do that, and you'll see the samples coming in close and then pulling away.

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## Parafarne

Please stop this west asian or european discussion for this region is EURASIA geneticaly and do your political discussions somewhere else!

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## Parafarne

IMO if we minus Natufian admixture then Turkey, Levant is completely European.

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## Vognejar

1. Is there any information about the origin of the Kurds with haplogroup J2b?


2. Could they be related to the Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_superstrate_in_Mitanni

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## Archangel Michael

well this is a little bit stretched...

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## Vognejar

How ancient is haplogroup J2b among Kurds?

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