# Population Genetics > Paleogenetics > Paleolithic & Mesolithic >  ancient J1b-F4306(xZS80) Satsurblia Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus

## bicicleur

Chris Rottensteiner :

I was able to extract the Y-chr BAM file for 13300 ybp Late Upper Palaeolithic Caucasus (*Satsurblia cave, Western Georgia, sample SATP) in Jones et al 2015. 
The data is low-coverage: when calls exist there are mostly only 1-3 reads (BAM Y-chr file 11 Mb). 
Satsurblia is a full developed J (97 J-SNPs checked, 49 positive, 48 have no-calls), negative for J2 (21 SNPs checked, 12 negative, 9 no-calls) so I went on to do a quick check for J1. 
J1 positive for: L255 (14937880 A->C), CTS426/PF4641/YSC307 (6745512 C->T), CTS10759 (22761824 G->A), CTS11188/PF4784 (22997977 G->T), CTS11636/PF4785 (23200045 T->C)
J1b positive for: CTS6101/PF3543 (16674560 G->A), F4306 (21492032 G->T), FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624 (24468458 A->G), FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620 (23650760 A->G), 
J1b negative for: CTS3219/ZS80 (14738001 G->A), 
So possibly this is 
a) the ancestor (or a near relative of him) of all J1b-F4306 men
b) a split leading to an extinct J1b-F4306(xZS80) branch

YFull YTree v3.17 time estimates seem to support hypothesis a) with J1b formed 18400 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp.
J1b has Finnish (272108/YF02055), Irish (211228), Colombian (HG01253, HG01256) and an unknown origin (422638) NGS samples. 
Sources: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6304/ http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

Even more interesting now to which J subclade the 5500-5000 BC Karelian-Finno Ugric hunter gatherer near Finland (EHG, Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, sample I0211/UzOO40) in Mathieson et al 2015 belongs to.*

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...614#post121614

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## Alan

J1b is what we call nowadays the Iranic branch, because it is predominantly found among Iranic groups and nations who are said to had contact to them (Britain, Iberia, Germany).

J1b nowadays is almost non existent in the Caucasus. And the fact that this Haplogroup is so diverse and frequent on the Iranian Plateau (mostly the Western and Northern parts), I think is another indiciation for the possibility that those CHG people might have started off from the Iranian Platea, possibly in connection with some other Haplogroups (R1b or R1a?), while one wave went to Georgia another went directly through the Caucasus or Central Asia into the Steppes.

Many people speculate that the J1 in the Sarmatian samples was also possibly part of the J1b branch cause the article stated that the J1 in these Sarmatians doesn't belong to any branch of the modern Caucasus but resembles that of people from West Iran and West India.

This should interest the member Ricardo and he can probably also tell us more.

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## bicicleur

Kotias Klde
Ted Kendall :
An analysis of the J2a-Y12378 Y-DNA of the Kotias Klde Hunter-Gatherer from Georgia 9895-9529 cal. BP. He's positive for 8 of 15 unambiguous J-Y12378 equivalent SNPs, and negative for 7 of 15. This fits well with a "halfway there" J-Y12378, because the present day samples have a YFull tMRCA of 9200 ybp: http://yfull.com/tree/J-Y12378/

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## bicicleur

Grotte du Bichon I2a*
Jason Neuharth :
After 4 days of working with a 18Gb bam file Ted Kandell I have the Y snps calls and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
He is positive for L460/PF3647/S238 = I2a and nothing downstream. His Mtdna is the same U5b1h.

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## bicicleur

> J1b is what we call nowadays the Iranic branch, because it is predominantly found among Iranic groups and nations who are said to had contact to them (Britain, Iberia, Germany).
> 
> J1b nowadays is almost non existent in the Caucasus. And the fact that this Haplogroup is so diverse and frequent on the Iranian Plateau (mostly the Western and Northern parts), I think is another indiciation for the possibility that those CHG people might have started off from the Iranian Platea, possibly in connection with some other Haplogroups (R1b or R1a?), while one wave went to Georgia another went directly through the Caucasus or Central Asia into the Steppes.
> 
> Many people speculate that the J1 in the Sarmatian samples was also possibly part of the J1b branch cause the article stated that the J1 in these Sarmatians doesn't belong to any branch of the modern Caucasus but resembles that of people from West Iran and West India.
> 
> This should interest the member Ricardo and he can probably also tell us more.


Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched



these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea

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## Fire Haired14

@Goga,

You're confusing J1b with another haplogroup. I'm pretty sure J1b only has a handful of representatives.

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## bicicleur

Loschbourg on YFull :

TMRCA with M423 : 13.7 ka

http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/

loschbourg.jpg

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## Alan

> @Goga,
> 
> You're confusing J1b with another haplogroup. I'm pretty sure J1b only has a handful of representatives.



You probably meant me? no I am not confusing this Haplogroups with any other. Haplogroup J1b is so far predominantly found in people of North Iran and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia.

I have researched a bit on 23andme on this Haplogroup and in the Near East the only individuals with this Haplogroup so far were Kurds, Iranian People and a Jordanian guy who says His paternal origin is of Kurds from Jordan. Beside them I only remember Ricardo and some British guy. 

It is a specific branch connected to West Iranic speakers in Anatolia no other people beside the Kurds have actually a decent frequency of this Haplogroup there.

http://j1bm365.blogspot.de/

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## Alan

> Georgia might not have been a refugium for anything, because the South Caucasus region appears to lack any discernable settlements during the peak glacial period (22-18). This suggests that the J guys came from further south - ? Northern Mesopotamia. But it's difficult to tell - the Palaeolithic in the Levant and mid east is poorly researched
> 
> 
> 
> these guys came from north of the Black Sea, which was the LGM refugium for the Eastern Epi-Gravettians
> 17 ka some Eastern Epi-Gravettians crossed the Caucasus or came along the eastern shores of the Black Sea


I doubt that the came from north of the Black Sea, I rather believe they are a refugium (as the paper indicates) of a H&G group who are siblings to pre EHG, WHG and ANE reached the region from further South. I believe this region was the place between the Zagros and Alborz mountains, two things indicate this. 1. I have speculated for long that the Zagros mountains are the source for Haplogroup J because it is very diverse there and J1b is virtually connected to North and West Iran. 2. Findings of IJ samples on the Iranian Platea 3. diversity of R Haplogroups in the Iranian Plateau. 

I think the Iranian Pleateau plays a central role for the Pre Gravettian H&G groups. And Mesopotamia might have been also effect by the same groups. But thats just my opinion.

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## bicicleur

> You probably meant me? no I am not confusing this Haplogroups with any other. Haplogroup J1b is so far predominantly found in people of North Iran and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia.
> 
> I have researched a bit on 23andme on this Haplogroup and in the Near East the only individuals with this Haplogroup so far were Kurds, Iranian People and a Jordanian guy who says His paternal origin is of Kurds from Jordan. Beside them I only remember Ricardo and some British guy. 
> 
> It is a specific branch connected to West Iranic speakers in Anatolia no other people beside the Kurds have actually a decent frequency of this Haplogroup there.


YFull mentions 3 Georgians and 1 Chechnian

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## bicicleur

> I doubt that the came from north of the Black Sea, I rather believe they are a refugium (as the paper indicates) of a H&G group who are siblings to pre EHG, WHG and ANE reached the region from further South. I believe this region was the place between the Zagros and Alborz mountains, two things indicate this. 1. I have speculated for long that the Zagros mountains are the source for Haplogroup J because it is very diverse there and J1b is virtually connected to North and West Iran. 2. Findings of IJ samples on the Iranian Platea 3. diversity of R Haplogroups in the Iranian Plateau. 
> 
> I think the Iranian Pleateau plays a central role for the Pre Gravettian H&G groups. And Mesopotamia might have been also effect by the same groups. But thats just my opinion.


is there any proof of LGM continuity in that area ?

Ortvale Klde and Dzudzuana cave +/- 42 ka in Georgia are probably pre-Gravetttian, but Gravettian itself developped in eastern Europe +/- 33 ka

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## Alan

> YFull mentions 3 Georgians and 1 Chechnian


predominantly as I said, that doesn't mean there is no other people with this Haplgroup. Ricardo is being researching on this Haplogroup for long time and has many samples, he says it is typical for West Iranic speakers. I would ask him for more.

Here is his website.

http://j1bm365.blogspot.de/

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## epoch

> Grotte du Bichon I2a*
> Jason Neuharth :
> After 4 days of working with a 18Gb bam file Ted Kandell I have the Y snps calls and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
> He is positive for L460/PF3647/S238 = I2a and nothing downstream. His Mtdna is the same U5b1h.


Absolutely nothing unexpected came out of this genome. And while I write this sentence, I realize how spoiled I have become ;)

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## Alan

> is there any proof of LGM continuity in that area ?
> 
> Ortvale Klde and Dzudzuana cave +/- 42 ka in Georgia are probably pre-Gravetttian, but Gravettian itself developped in eastern Europe +/- 33 ka


No there is no prove for that, but I am not sure there is any proof of genetic backflow from north of the Blacksea also. CHG/Teal acts like the missing link between Basal EUrasian (G, H) and EHG, WHG, ANE (IJK) that could be interpreted in two ways A: It is a fusion/mixing of both B: it is a close relativ (uncle) of pre Gravettian, further upstream and therefore shows still stronger shared ancestry to Basal Eurasian because the seperation wasn't so long ago. Could explain why more ancient Eurasian samples such as Kostenki still show Basal Eurasian admixture.

The fact that CHG doesn't really seem to show ANE/WHG admixture but only shared ancestry which shows up as "ANE" and "WHG-UHG", indicates rather the second (B) option.

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## bicicleur

> No there is no prove for that, but I am not sure there is any proof of genetic backflow from north of the Blacksea also.


There is link, it is the Eastern Eprigravettian. Satsurblia was an epigravettian site.
Epigravettians even went hunting as far as Lake Sevan in Armenia during summertime, 17 ka

http://www.digitorient.com/wp/wp-con...E-in-press.pdf

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## bicicleur

> Absolutely nothing unexpected came out of this genome. And while I write this sentence, I realize how spoiled I have become ;)


yes but all mesolithic/early neolithic samples are west-Europe/Balkan/NW Anatolia

none in eastern Europe (alltough Kunda culture probably was I)

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## epoch

> yes but all mesolithic/early neolithic samples are west-Europe/Balkan/NW Anatolia
> 
> none in eastern Europe (alltough Kunda culture probably was I)


The genome was presented as Upper Paleolithic, but Azilian culture is basically a transitional culture at the end of the UP Magdanelean. We could use older UP ones from the area of France and Iberia as there is the refugium of the LGM. Also, the Red Lady of el Miron might prove interesting as she is from the last millenium of the LGM, and yielded mtDNA H IIRC. 

http://www.livescience.com/50274-red...rial-site.html
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...te-of-el-Miron!!!!

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## holderlin

My perception of linguistic groups is now being nudged back to periods that are too early for the lexicon, among the fringe. 

And it feels so liberating.

Dare I say that I'm very close to making a bet that the Gravettians were the actual proto-proto IEs? They would speak some sort of a pre-farming Proto - Indocaucasoeuropean. This would be the UP root of IE and Caucasian with proto - Uralic arriving later. So basically Teal/CHG and WHG were early gravettians and later contact with proto - Uralic peoples resulted in ANE. (Mal'ta settlement was essentially Gravettian or very close to it IIRC). So you would have underlying genetic and linguistic relations from Karelia to at least the Caucuses through the LGM.

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## Goga

> @Goga,
> 
> You're confusing J1b with another haplogroup. I'm pretty sure J1b only has a handful of representatives.


You mean somebody else. I have no knowledge about J1.

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## Fire Haired14

> You mean somebody else. I have no knowledge about J1.


You're right. Many if not most haplogroups don't have a name. They're labelled only with SNPs. So J1b to you is another haplogroup to others. It's very annoying keeping track of it all.

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## Alan

> My perception of linguistic groups is now being nudged back to periods that are too early for the lexicon, among the fringe. 
> 
> And it feels so liberating.
> 
> Dare I say that I'm very close to making a bet that the Gravettians were the actual proto-proto IEs? They would speak some sort of a pre-farming Proto - Indocaucasoeuropean. This would be the UP root of IE and Caucasian with proto - Uralic arriving later. So basically Teal/CHG and WHG were early gravettians and later contact with proto - Uralic peoples resulted in ANE. (Mal'ta settlement was essentially Gravettian or very close to it IIRC). So you would have underlying genetic and linguistic relations from Karelia to at least the Caucuses through the LGM.


Indeed there are people now speculating that "ANE" is not a real component but a fusion of something CHG /WHG like with something nowadays found in Amerindians aka ancient Siberians. It looks more and more like Mal'ta is not really representing an ancestral population but is simply a "ghost or zombie" component hiding most of the CHG and WHG ancestry in South_Central Asians. Indeed some people say Yamna fits even better as a mixture of 2/3 CHG aka Teal and 1/3 WHG.

Makes me wonder if ANE is a real component. But there are also almost as much arguments for ANE being actually a real component and the affinity of CHG or EHG to it is basically shared ancestry.

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## Sile

> You probably meant me? no I am not confusing this Haplogroups with any other. Haplogroup J1b is so far predominantly found in people of North Iran and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia.
> 
> I have researched a bit on 23andme on this Haplogroup and in the Near East the only individuals with this Haplogroup so far were Kurds, Iranian People and a Jordanian guy who says His paternal origin is of Kurds from Jordan. Beside them I only remember Ricardo and some British guy. 
> 
> It is a specific branch connected to West Iranic speakers in Anatolia no other people beside the Kurds have actually a decent frequency of this Haplogroup there.
> 
> http://j1bm365.blogspot.de/


i suggest you revisit the paper from this site

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011...yev-et-al.html

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## Alan

> i suggest you revisit the paper from this site
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011...yev-et-al.html


I don't see any J1*b* mentioned in the table or the paper.

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## epoch

> My perception of linguistic groups is now being nudged back to periods that are too early for the lexicon, among the fringe. 
> 
> And it feels so liberating.





> Dare I say that I'm very close to making a bet that the Gravettians were the actual proto-proto IEs? They would speak some sort of a pre-farming Proto - Indocaucasoeuropean. This would be the UP root of IE and Caucasian with proto - Uralic arriving later.




There is quite some compelling evidence that Uralic and PIE have combined origins. But they share very few shared roots or words. That would indicate old age. The shared roots that can be traced, however, indicate to an old common origin: ne- for negation, m- for me, tu/tun for you. Indo-European kwi,kwe,kwo for what and who and so on is ki, ke, ku, ko in Uralic. Words that are typically not loan words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages
http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art216e.pdf
http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf...-030514-124812




> _Onekind of relationship between PIE and PU that would account for the apparently shared pronouns, noun endings, and basic vocabulary would be ancestral: The two protolanguages could have shared a very ancient common ancestor, perhaps a broadly related set of intergrading dialects spoken by hunters at the end of the Pleistocene. Nichols (1997) called this kind of very deep, apparently genetic grouping a quasi-stock. Unfortunately, relationships that deep cannot be demonstrated with any confidence even by state-of-the-art statistical assessment (Kessler & Lehtonen 2006)_.






> So basically Teal/CHG and WHG were early gravettians and later contact with proto - Uralic peoples resulted in ANE. (Mal'ta settlement was essentially Gravettian or very close to it IIRC). So you would have underlying genetic and linguistic relations from Karelia to at least the Caucuses through the LGM.


No, PIE can best be described by having a North-West Caucasian substrate. 




> _Uhlenbeck’s view can be unified with Gimbutas’ theory of a primary homeland north of the Caspian Sea and a secondary homeland north of the Black Sea (cf. 1985). What we have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors (cf. Kortlandt 1995: 94), we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Indo-Uralic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum connected with the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus._


See also this: http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/05...-european.html

I believe HG's had enormous language diversity. Take for instance our best proxy for the Paleolithic world, Aboriginal Australia. There is enormous language variability, with a number of language families next to a number of language isolates. New Guinea is even more diverse, literally hundreds of languages and language families. American Indians have a number of language isolates. I think this may be extrapolated to HG Europe, indicating that Europe too had enormous language diversity.

EDIT: There still are a number of issues with this theory, to wit where did the rather large amount of IE roots for agricultural words came from? There is ample archaeological evidence for wheat growing east of the Dniepr earlier than 2000 BC. How then did these roots end up in Indo-Iranian languages?

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## LeBrok

> There is quite some compelling evidence that Uralic and PIE have combined origins. But they share very few shared roots or words. That would indicate old age. The shared roots that can be traced, however, indicate to an old common origin: ne- for negation, m- for me, tu/tun for you. Indo-European kwi,kwe,kwo for what and who and so on is ki, ke, ku, ko in Uralic. Words that are typically not loan words.


Good point.




> I believe HG's had enormous language diversity. Take for instance our best proxy for the Paleolithic world, Aboriginal Australia. There is enormous language variability, with a number of language families next to a number of language isolates. New Guinea is even more diverse, literally hundreds of languages and language families. American Indians have a number of language isolates. I think this may be extrapolated to HG Europe, indicating that Europe too had enormous language diversity.


Exactly my thoughts. The only difference might be that Eurasians were very compressed to just few refugia during LGM, till basically Neolithic. This could have limited amount of language diversity.




> EDIT: There still are a number of issues with this theory, to wit where did the rather large amount of IE roots for agricultural words came from? There is ample archaeological evidence for wheat growing east of the Dniepr earlier than 2000 BC. How then did these roots end up in Indo-Iranian languages?


Agriculture was mediated to the Steppe through Cucuteni and Maykop farmers.

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## epoch

So, the working hypothesis is something like this: The PIE culture started out by the EHG groups north of the Black Sea. The proto cultures expanded over Maykop and possibly Cucuteni-Trypillian. There the proto PIE came into being. It expanded. Somehow an after-migration from the Western part brought the agricultural roots back to BMAC. There these roots traveled south. 

Does this fit somehow?

EDIT: There is clear evidence for after-migration in Mathieson's research: http://polishgenes.blogspot.nl/2015/...eople-and.html




> After the Poltavka period, population change occurred in Samara: the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya have ~17% Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry (Extended Data Fig. 2). Previous work documented that such ancestry appeared east of the Urals beginning at least by the time of the Sintashta culture, and suggested that it reflected an eastward migration from the Corded Ware peoples of central Europe5. However, the fact that the Srubnaya also harbored such ancestry indicates that the Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry could have come into the steppe from a more eastern source. Further evidence that migrations originating as far west as central Europe may not have had an important impact on the Late Bronze Age steppe comes from the fact that the Srubnaya possess exclusively (n=6) R1a Y chromosomes (Extended Data Table 1), and four of them (and one Poltavka male) belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93 which is common in central/south Asians12, very rare in present-day Europeans, and absent in all ancient central Europeans studied to date.

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## epoch

> Exactly my thoughts. The only difference might be that Eurasians were very compressed to just few refugia during LGM, till basically Neolithic. This could have limited amount of language diversity.


Expansion started earlier, at the start of the Holocene. See for instance Ahrensberg culture. American Indians were in a similar position, at a similar timeframe. Look at their language diversity, even with isolates. 




> Agriculture was mediated to the Steppe through Cucuteni and Maykop farmers.


Yes, but not to the cultures we consider ancestral to Indo-Iranian cultures, while these do have the same agricultural roots. Hey, not my objection, but Mallory's ;)

http://jolr.ru/files/%28112%29jlr201...145-154%29.pdf

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## LeBrok

> Expansion started earlier, at the start of the Holocene. See for instance Ahrensberg culture. American Indians were in a similar position, at a similar timeframe. Look at their language diversity, even with isolates.


We are talking about Yamnaya at 5-6 kya. Today's North American language picture had few more thousand years to diversify. Not exactly same time frames.





> Yes, but not to the cultures we consider ancestral to Indo-Iranian cultures, while these do have the same agricultural roots. Hey, not my objection, but Mallory's ;)


 Couldn't it come with II from Yamnaya? They were already farmers before they started expending.

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## LeBrok

> So, the working hypothesis is something like this: The PIE culture started out by the EHG groups north of the Black Sea. *The proto cultures expanded over Maykop and possibly Cucuteni-Trypillian*. There the proto PIE came into being. It expanded. Somehow an after-migration from the Western part brought the agricultural roots back to BMAC. There these roots traveled south. 
> l


There is more archaeological/material evidence that farmers of Cucuteni and Maykop expanded over hunter-gatherers of the steppe.

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## epoch

> We are talking about Yamnaya at 5-6 kya. Today's North American language picture had few more thousand years to diversify. Not exactly same time frames.


Well, the idea is that proto-Indo-Uralic was just one of the many languages that existed. It split into two languages. One became PIE on a Caucasian substrate, the other proto-Uralic on an Asian substrate. That would render a small possible are from where it may have originated from. 




> Couldn't it come with II from Yamnaya? They were already farmers before they started expending.


It seems a timing issue combined with the fact that Indo-Iranian peoples settled among farmers that already must have had words for wheat, barley, ploughs and what not. 

The timing issues seem to be that the cultures from which Indo-Iranian languages seem to originate are east of the Dniepr, which, as I said, has little to no evidence for farming before 2000 BC. The expansion _to_ the Indo-Iranian target areas happened before that. Why and how would these peoples remember words they didn't use? Both Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages have many words regarding agriculture that are derived straight from PIE roots. Why not copy the words that were in use before their arrival in the target areas? Or create new ones?




> There is more archaeological/material evidence that farmers of Cucuteni and Maykop expanded over hunter-gatherers of the steppe.


Is there? Got a summery of what exactly there is?

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## epoch

There is also the possibility that later archaeological proof of wheat growth and plowing will be found from before 2000 BC. It's not like we dug up the entire steppe. As Mallory already states in the pdf I linked to: We hardly know anything from these cultures but their burials.

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## singingfalls

> Grotte du Bichon I2a*
> Jason Neuharth :
> After 4 days of working with a 18Gb bam file Ted Kandell I have the Y snps calls and Mtdna for Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h
> He is positive for L460/PF3647/S238 = I2a and nothing downstream. His Mtdna is the same U5b1h.


Good work. Many thanks.

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