# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics > Dodecad >  dodecad admixture components and the phenotypes connected to them among Kurds.

## Alan

It is very hard and maybe impossible to find individuals who fit 100% into one component but I think I could at least find some going into the direction.

This phenotypes correlate with the components found among them in my opinion.

*West Asian 40-50% depending on region.*



*Mediterranean 20-26%*



*West/East European 10-15%*




*Southwest Asian 8-15%. It is hard and unusual to find Kurds with straight Southwest Asian features but there are individuals which show some influences and tendencies toward Southwest Asia.*



*South (Central) Asian ANI 3-9%*

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## Goga

Where does she fit? I think she is very sexy. And very horny Iranic song, lol.





True Kurdish warriors:

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## Alan

Both the woman and fighter in the second video fit best in the Mediterranean branch.

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## Goga

> Both the woman and fighter in the second video fit best in the Mediterranean branch.


Yes, this video is edited and dubbed. But I still think she's Kurdish. I mean she does look very Kurdish (Iranic) to me. One of my nieces looks like her.

I'm not an expert on the admixture components phenotypes, but I think that all these Kurds I posted look very Kurdish (Iranic) to me...

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## Alan

> Yes, this video is edited and dubbed. But I still think she's Kurdish. I mean she does look very Kurdish (Iranic) to me. One of my nieces looks like her.
> 
> I'm not an expert on the admixture components phenotypes, but I think that all these Kurds I posted look very Kurdish (Iranic) to me...


Are you sure, you are Kurd from Georgia? Georgian Kurds I know look no way like this Girl. They usually look like Georgians-South Slavs-Armenians.

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## Goga

> Are you sure, you are Kurd from Georgia? Georgian Kurds I know look no way like this Girl. They usually look like Georgians-South Slavs-Armenians.


I don't understand your question.

What is wrong with the girl? How does she look like according to you?

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## Alan

> I don't understand your question.
> 
> What is wrong with the girl? How does she look like according to you?


She looks Mediterranean but one of the further Southern types. Yezidi Kurds from Georgia look very different usually.

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## MOESAN

> She looks Mediterranean but one of the further Southern types. Yezidi Kurds from Georgia look very different usually.


I've no more the details but a survey on cephalic index on Kurdish tribes showed 4 tribes with brachycephalic means (or subbrachy) an one meso- or subdolicho - So I think that as a whole (on what I saw myself too) Kurdish people is an ancient mixture with alpine, dinaric, indo-afghan or 'eurafrican', and 'arab' or 'semitic' true gracile mediterranean type, and some nordic light strains: it's to say that, even with different rates, their mixture is not to far from the Armenian one - the brachycephalic elements came from Caucasus or Western Anatolia at the Chalcolithic period, for the most of them - I believed I saw a tiny South Asian strain acting on the skin colour, very light and uneasy to determine phénotypically, more on the side of veddoid types, maybe - hard to say, to tiny.
- the indo-afghan (what you call 'iranic' maybe) and mediterranean elements could have been in Kudistan very long time ago yet (because it's thought now that Arabic peoples came from North in the Arabic Peninsula - Indo-Europeans have send principally nordic and indo-afghan elements and are far to be the principal component of today Kurds -the same for a lot of so called Iranic people that are only partially indo-european I think (like a lot of indo-european speaking peoples of Europe) -

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## Alan

> I've no more the details but a survey on cephalic index on Kurdish tribes showed 4 tribes with brachycephalic means (or subbrachy) an one meso- or subdolicho - So I think that as a whole (on what I saw myself too) Kurdish people is an ancient mixture with alpine, dinaric, indo-afghan or 'eurafrican', and 'arab' or 'semitic' true gracile mediterranean type, and some nordic light strains: it's to say that, even with different rates, their mixture is not to far from the Armenian one - the brachycephalic elements came from Caucasus or Western Anatolia at the Chalcolithic period, for the most of them -* I believed I saw a tiny South Asian strain acting on the skin colour, very light and uneasy to determine phénotypically, more on the side of veddoid types*, maybe - hard to say, to tiny.
> - the indo-afghan (what you call 'iranic' maybe) and mediterranean elements could have been in Kudistan very long time ago yet (because it's thought now that Arabic peoples came from North in the Arabic Peninsula - Indo-Europeans have send principally nordic and indo-afghan elements and are far to be the principal component of today Kurds -the same for a lot of so called Iranic people that are only partially indo-european I think (like a lot of indo-european speaking peoples of Europe) -


 Well Kurds almost lack South Asian (less than 1%) Genes according to K12a and have more of the Gedrosia component which is in fact the twin of Caucasus with strong affinities toward North European and paleolithic Central Asian. This Gedrosia component is probably a Iranian-Mediterranean phenotype. Just like I already mentioned on Dienekes v3 admixture. The so called "South Asian" among Kurds in Dodecad was actually ANI paleolithic South-Central Asian.

The Kurdish samples have 25% of this Gedrosia (Iranian-Mediterranean) component

It is also important to mention that the samples are heavily biased toward Iran and Iraq. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ldWxwVmc#gid=0


The Southwest Asian (Semitic) genes were probably brought by Akkadians, Assyrians and other more recent semitic waves like the Islamic expansion. But this still is very low and played not a big role in Kurds (9-13.5%)

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## Goga

I believe that the Southwest Asian (Semitic) component is more from the Jews and the ancient Chaldeans, than from the Akkadians, Assyrians and Arabs. Some of it is also an import from the East Med. coast that came with the Romans, Greeks etc.

A confederation of Hurro-Iranic tribes which was later called the Median confederation (the Medes) together with the Chaldeans destroyed the Semitic (Akkadian/Assyrian) tribes in the south. Later the Medes (Hurro-Iranic folks) and Chaldeans dissapeared and became 1 (Kurdish) nation...

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## jgviv

What does east meditterranean stands for, wich territories?

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## Alan

> What does east meditterranean stands for, wich territories?


This thread as the information on it is outdated ;)

Just forget about it. WHG-SHG, EHG, Antatolian_Neo, Levant_Neo and Iran_Neo-CHG are important now.

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## Blanco

You can't link facial features to autosomal dna because that's not how it works. Ashkenazi Jews are genetically more Near Eastern than any South European groups, yet they tend to be physically lighter, more Pan European looking.

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## Angela

> You can't link facial features to autosomal dna because that's not how it works. Ashkenazi Jews are genetically more Near Eastern than any South European groups, yet they tend to be physically lighter, more Pan European looking.


Those statements are way too broad. You can indeed, on a population level, make some pretty sensible predictions. If I see an autosomal analysis that has very high percentages of South Asian, I'm not going to expect a blonde, blue eyed person. I have a pretty good idea of the probable appearance of a person with very high percentages of North East Asian. In West Eurasia it's a little more difficult, but still, when comparing populations you can make some pretty general predictions. In certain countries, it's a little harder. There can be a lot of inter-population variance in certain countries even though the autosomal proportions may be similar.

As to your second statement, it's obviously very subjective, but I haven't found that at all. You have experience with large numbers of Ashkenazim in Australia do you? Or are you basing your ideas on celebrities, often of mixed ancestry? I, on the other hand, am surrounded by them, and 100% Ashkenazim, imo, can look southern European, sometimes look Near Eastern, often particularly Ashkenazi, but rarely look Northern European or Eastern European. 

Women's pictures aren't very informative because of nose jobs, hair dye, wigs, and make-up, but with men those things don't apply.Nobody could be more Ashkenazi than these people. They are the "pure" descendants of Eastern European Jews.

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## Alan

> You can't link facial features to autosomal dna because that's not how it works. Ashkenazi Jews are genetically more Near Eastern than any South European groups, yet they tend to be physically lighter, more Pan European looking.


This thread is from 2011 holy cow since than almsot 6 years are gone. And I have far more information today then the time when I made this thread. You can link some features to DNA but pigmentation isn't a major one of them. Yet today you can tell by aDNA even pigmentation. It doesn't mean that someone with South Asian or Arab aDNA couldn't be blond but the people who are the source for this admixture didn't had the genetic drifts responsible for Blonde Hair for example. Therefore it is allot more likely that you will look brown skinned instead of Blonde if you have South Asian like aDNA. But even there are exceptions like the Kalash. So it doesn't mean that a drift for Blonde hair couldn't occure among someone with South Asian aDNA, just that it hasn't occured frequently enough to be a trait specifically borught into connection with South Asian aDNA.

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## Blanco

> :/


We can't know if all those people are Ashkenazi Jewish. It makes no sense to share pictures of unknown individuals unless you can send me the pedigree each of these. Many Ashkenazi have Sephardic and Mizrahi jewish heritage, especially in Israel. I have the feeling you posted the darkest crowd pictures you can find and just googled "Ashkenazi Jew"
Your personal views can't stand scienticifal observations on pigmentation and hair color and i apparently can't find the link which stated that Jewish individuals have lighter hair and skin than some European groups but here you go: 


While red hair is technically non existent in South Europe, this can't be said on Ashkenazim.




> Red hair is also found amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish populations.[30] In 1903, 5.6% of Polish Jews had red hair.[31] Other studies have found that 3.69% of Jewish women overall were found to have red hair, but around 10.9% of all Jewish men have red beards.[32] In European culture, prior to the 20th century, red hair was often seen as a stereotypically Jewish trait: during the Spanish Inquisition, all those with red hair were identified as Jewish.[33] In Italy, red hair was associated with Italian Jews, and Judas was traditionally depicted as red-haired in Italian and Spanish art.[34] Writers from Shakespeare to Dickens would identify Jewish characters by giving them red hair.[35] The stereotype that red hair is Jewish remains in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.[36]

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## New Englander

Well MC1R R160W has to be the Jewish linked allele. Why its so high in Sweden and Lithuania, Im not sure. Although Lithuania had a large Jewish population, so it may be Baltic related. Im sure Jews were much more common place than Lithuanians in Southern Europe, so they became associated with red hair instead of the Lithuanians.

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## Angela

> We can't know if all those people are Ashkenazi Jewish. It makes no sense to share pictures of unknown individuals unless you can send me the pedigree each of these. Many Ashkenazi have Sephardic and Mizrahi jewish heritage, especially in Israel. I have the feeling you posted the darkest crowd pictures you can find and just googled "Ashkenazi Jew"
> Your personal views can't stand scienticifal observations on pigmentation and hair color and i apparently can't find the link which stated that Jewish individuals have lighter hair and skin than some European groups but here you go: 
> 
> 
> While red hair is technically non existent in South Europe, this can't be said on Ashkenazim.


Reverse search the pictures. Go ahead. Please be my guest. Every single one of them is of Chabad members in New York or of Jews from the Lubavitch community in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. They are Hassids, each and every one of them. Do you understand what that means? So, each and every one is pure Ashkenazi. They don't intermarry with anyone outside their own, not even other Jews, so they are pure descendants of the Jews who came from Eastern Europe. There are also many communities in Israel. 

Maybe you should take a look at the photos in the Brooklyn Library dedicated to them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/29/n...ider.html?_r=0

Rebbe Schneerson speaking to a group of Hassids.


Unlike you I don't cherry pick photos. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

As for the nonsense about red hair, it's too ludicrous to address in depth. Look up our maps here. It does exist in southern Europe. Half of my father's family is red-headed. Are we Jews too?

Recessive genes will always appear at higher levels in isolated, bottle-necked populations. Genetics 101.

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## New Englander

^ Do you do not agree with the fact that a isolated population of Jews may have a higher frequency than that of pan-Mediterranean Europe as a whole, disregarding areas around 4% according to the map above? And that these Jewish populations were relatively homogeneous, so red hair became a stereotype associated with Jews due to a slightly higher frequency than the host populations? Essentially, Im implying the Sephardi had strong contact to the Pale of settlement.

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## Blanco

> Unlike you I don't cherry pick photos. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


 that was really uncalled for. Unlike me? Since when did i cherry pick photos? 





> Recessive genes will always appear at higher levels in isolated, bottle-necked populations. Genetics 101.


Yes, maybe that's why Ashkenazim have such high rate of light hair, eyes compared their Autosomal DNA which would suggest a more stronger Near Eastern characteristic





> As for the nonsense about red hair, it's too ludicrous to address in depth. Look up our maps here. It does exist in southern Europe. Half of my father's family is red-headed. Are we Jews too?


Your personal experiences can't be representative for all Italians or i don't know what ethnicity you belong to. 
My Italian ancestors were as dark as some Aussies thought that they came from the Middle East.

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## Angela

> Blanco: Yes, maybe that's why Ashkenazim have such high rate of light hair, eyes compared their Autosomal DNA which would suggest a more stronger Near Eastern characteristic





> Your personal experiences can't be representative for all Italians or i don't know what ethnicity you belong to. 
> My Italian ancestors were as dark as some Aussies thought that they came from the Middle East.


My family tree on my father's side goes back on all lines to the mid 1500s, all in the Apennines of Emilia. On some lines I can trace ancestors back to the 1300s. In his family if you didn't have red hair, you had blonde or light brown hair or chestnut hair. I don't think there's a dark eyed person in the entire village. My mother's family comes from the Lunigiana, which is politically northwestern Toscana, and eastern Liguria. I can trace most of those lines back to the mid-1500s as well, although on some I'm only getting back to the 17-1800s. They're not as uniformly fair, but they're certainly not all dark. Is that Italian enough for you?

I don't know what Italian "relatives" you might have. You're flying the Australian flag but posting from the Netherlands. Fix it.

Since that is incorrect, why would I believe your description of your ethnicity?

Everything is on a cline in Italy, including pigmentation. Blonde hair in Italy:


The above was based on young men of military age at the turn of the century. Women are fairer. 

Light eyes from Toscana north are at about 30%, and in some areas are 40%. Italians don't normally look like Scandinavians, but not everyone in Italy looks the same. Indeed, there is internal variation everywhere, including in the south. My husband's maternal grandmother was blonde and blue eyed. It makes sense, since she was from Benevento.

From what I've read, the Italians who went to Australia, like the Italians who went to the U.S., were mostly from southern Italy, 80-90% in the case of the U.S. The Sicilian and Calabrian contingent is particularly large. Australians, like Americans, may have formed their mental image of "Italians" in general from these people. Not that there's anything wrong with the way southern Italians look. I'm very partial to it as a matter of fact, so partial I married one.

You clearly have very little experience with Ashkenazim since you can't even recognize pictures of Hassids when you see them. The percentage of light eyed, light haired full Ashkenazim is exceedingly small. In all the years of going to Orthodox functions I've only ever seen a handful. If you want your opinions to be given any credence, I suggest you back them up with data given that your experience is clearly limited.

I suggested that you go to the Red Hair map here, but apparently you didn't. 

The levels in northern Italy for red hair are about 1-3%. Even areas very associated with red hair don't have more than 5-10%. Isolated groups like those in mountain areas preserve recessive genes better, as I've said. Half of the family is red haired, ranging from carrot orange to auburn.

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