# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

## Angela

See:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html

George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
*Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks*"*Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4**%**. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."*

Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...

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## Angela

"Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. " These were also all people from rural villages.

That's the way it should be done.

ADMIXTURE results:
The Peloponnese population is south of Tuscans, and Sicily and the Peloponnese overlap. It's what I have been proposing for years, but I think some anthrofora posters are going to need smelling salts. :)

It would have been nice to see a comparison to someplace like Campania. I wonder if there would be total overlap?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

"Sicilians and Italians serve as a bridge between Peloponneseans and other European populations (Basque, Andalusians and French). Slavic populations are placed far away from the Peloponneseans as are the Near Eastern populations. The latter are connected to the Peloponnesus via the islands of Crete and the Dodecanese."

" The ADMIXTURE analysis of Figure 1e shows that the Maniots and Tsakones are clearly separated from each other and from all other Peloponnesean populations."

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## Hauteville

I believe that for Italians they think Southern Italians. No doubts that Peloponnesians have loads of overlap with Sicily and Southern Italy, loads of cities of Magna Grecia and Sikelia were from Messenia or Corinto just to say.

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## Tomenable

Good study, but too bad that they did not have any Proto-Slavic and Early Slavic ancient DNA samples.

Instead they had to rely on comparisons with modern populations. This might change soon, because samples from 900s AD Poland will be published. It would be even better to have Slavic samples from Late Iron Age and from the Migration Period.

The main problem is that cremation was widely practiced by Early Slavs, inhumations were rare at that time.

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## last-resort

>>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsula ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. Edit: This is southeast (Mani) or east and northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.

My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.

>>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.

Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent (Triodion) in the village of Nedousa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.

Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants. 

My only regret with the study is it would be greatly useful to compare these areas with the Albanians. The Albanians of FYROM (so-called, 'macedonians') are a huge nuisance with any Greek oriented site. Perhaps someone can take the study and do that comparison.

Thank you Angela for posting this. I presume your interest is the Italian commonalities. I think you should be satisfied, cousin.

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## DuPidh

There was I think in 1923 a huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Greeks took about 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and resettled them in mainland, including Populousness. That was 40% of population of Greece of that time. So no genetic study of Greeks tells the truth about genetic composition of Greeks of Middle ages when Fallmerayer visited Greece. To say now that Peloponnese's was not touched by resettlement of populations from Anatolia is not the truth. When Fallmerayer visited Greece he landed by ship on port of Pireus close to present day Athens. The first thing he realized was that local population spoke no Greek. He was greeted by hordes of Arvanites who spoke no Greek. Also the Vlah population of of Greece was significant. They might have composed 10% of total Greek population. He famously said something like: I guess I have to visit cemeteries. There is where the real Greeks lay. Unless the Anatolian Greeks have the same genes like the one Peloponesses have I don't see how this study could be true? I come to believe the expression: Don't believe everything you read!

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## Angela

Totally* irrelevant* point. *The genetics of these samples is dated to 1860.

*People should read papers before commenting on them, or at least read the summaries provided by other posters. They should also engage whatever brains they possess.

"*Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."


*

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## Aaron1981

> See:
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html
> 
> George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
> *Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks*
> 
> "*Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4**%**. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."*
> 
> Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...


Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.

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## Angela

> Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.


Who said it's non-existent? I neither read that nor claimed it. 

Did you read the paper? Did you skip over the context? They're responding to nonsense claims by German "scholars" of the past.

The fact is that the Greeks have some Slavic admixture, just like the Sicilians have admixture from Central Europe and northwestern Europe. 

No one is claiming they're a totally unchanged population. You missed the point.

In case everyone missed it, there's a lot of substructure in Greece, as there is in Italy, which is why a few samples from someplace in Thessaly was not ever going to give a complete picture. It would be like judging all Italian genetics on the basis of the Valle D'Aosta. 

This should also be an object lesson for the fact that results posted by various internet people, even if not cherry-picked, can be very misleading. Stick to scientifically, randomly selected samples from a broad range of areas, and hopefully a good number of them.

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## Hauteville

Anatolian Greeks do not plot with Southern Italians and Sicilians but close to Armenians and Assyrians and Peloponneso was almost untouched by them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...taLausanne.jpg

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## Angela

> >>Cannot post quote here<< For those unfamiliar, the Maniots, as described here, are those people on the Mani peninsular ('deep Mani') and the population on the west and east sides of the Tayetos mountain. This is east (Mani) or northeast (the Tayetos) from the modern town of Kalamata (of the superb olive fame), and birthplace of the Greek independence revolution. FYI The Tsakones are on the east side of the Peloponnesus in apparently a somewhat isolated area.
> 
> My maternal line is West Tayetos (classified as 'Maniot' -that is, part of - late in the study), so this is definitely interesting. I have cousins who are in the paternal line.
> 
> >>Cannot post quote here<< All this leaves open the composition of Haplogroups between Maniots and any 'ancient DNA' that can be recovered.
> 
> Also, it should be noted - regarding 'the ancient Greek religion', there is a decidedly pagan festival each year prior to Greek Orthodox Christian Lent in the village of Nedusa, which is West Tayetos. That town had a 'slavic' name, Megali Anastasova, until the 1920s.
> 
> Also, I read elsewhere that the Slavs on the Tayetos were used by the Ottomans to guard certain passes there. I think it might be normal that such a role would isolate them from the mass of the 'regular' inhabitants. 
> ...


Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)

My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.

To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)

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## last-resort

My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.

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## last-resort

Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.

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## DuPidh

> Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.


Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?

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## Hauteville

Turkish were mostly converted locals.

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## Hauteville

> Well 0.2 to 14.4% is a pretty massive range. Unless the upper range is an outlier, I wouldn't say Slavic ancestry is non-existant by any stretch. Some groups in England are likely barely even 14.4% Anglo-Saxon, so let's keep this in perspective.


I think 14.4 is the maximum individual (I didn't find the average).

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## Hauteville

> Now, when Greeks tell me upon hearing my last name, as they always do, "Una faccia, una razza", I can say, yes, indeed, and the genetics proves it. :)
> 
> My husband was always very interested in the commonalities between the Greeks and the southern Italians as some of his family were speaking Griko into the 19th century, and his paternal grandfather was born within sight of Greek ruins. He also was a Classics minor at university, Latin and Greek studies. So, very interested indeed.
> 
> To be completely honest, though, I also like being right. :)


Me too, una faccia una razza is real, Greek ancestry in South Italy but we don't forget Roman/Italic settlements to Greek world. The Eastern Roman Empire survived until 1453 ;)

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## LABERIA

> Fallmerayer visited Greece in 1830, not the Middle Ages. The study population was born after this but before the transfer. The transfer occurred in the 1920s. Your comment has no meaning with respect to the study. Plus how a port looks can be quite different than the interior.


 *In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.* *FEARFUL HISTORY**Demetrios Horologas*

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## last-resort

I cannot post a link, but Google (search) for 'Greek War of Independence and its Toll on Turks' You should find an article prepared by the Turkish American Coalition. It says that that there 'was nearly 30 thousands (sic) Muslims living in the Peloponnese in March 1821' (the start of the war). "A month later, ...there was hardly any.' Further down a British author counts '20,000 (Muslim) souls'. This is a TURKISH article. The transfer largely had to do with Muslims in territory Greece gained since Independence - Greece's territory expanded a lot - also documented in that article. The Greek war of independence continued until 1829, the year before the German visited.

If you need to make a point, try to not lie so blatantly. I feel good that Greeks are hated. It makes them and me feel special. DuPidh, say something positive about YOUR people. Try that for a change.

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## Angela

> *In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.*
> 
> *FEARFUL HISTORY*
> 
> *Demetrios Horologas*


If I'm understanding you correctly, I'm surprised and disappointed both. Genetics is genetics, for goodness sakes. It's time to let go of all this noxious politics.

@Hauteville,

I agree. There was definitely Italian gene flow into the islands ruled by Venezia and Genova and during the days of Byzantium as well.

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## last-resort

It appears that this study put the lie to Mr. Horologas' assertions.

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## Yetos

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?



I suggest read correct the Greek revolt from Orlov's to 1828
and seek the *batlle of Lalla* by Kolokotronis



*Anyway* 

*The Slavic admixture*

The SLavic admixture in Greece as area not as nation reached Peloponese 
we have *toponyms* like Helmos ex-Αροανεια and historical facts, the 2 tribe are (Ν)Εζεριται Μελιγγοι (Ν)ezer Meliggoi
they were absorved by time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melingoi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezeritai

Personally I always believed that there is a max 8-15% Slavic admixture at total Greek area (not from minor Asian) population except Crete and islands West and East.


A very small Slavic admixture might also pass from some Vlach-Aromani tribes (that descend from North Balkans) some Arbanites and from Byzantine guards
remember some Palaiologoi married Slavic brides 
I repeat a small cause these tribes (Aromani etc ) are not considered Slavic but living nearby with South Slavic populations, as also some other Northern DNA like East Vikings.
*

about Peloponese and Ottomans,*

Before Orlov's revolt 1770 estimated around 20 000 
After Orlov's are about 40 000 due to Ottoman (Turk and Albanian) army
10 000 Albanian Army (Ottoman citizenship and Muslim religion = Turk to every census) came to Peloponese,
they went away after the battle of Lalla, and Kolokotronis struggle, to North to my Makedonia to Platamon, for stop but could not stay, so went East by ships, many ships sumk and raids against them by Diamantis Nikolaou. 
not to be misunderstood, Albanians not Arbanites,
after June 1821 not a single Muslim existed at Peloponese except the city of Patrai 
many descriptions are written about the crimes comited by Albanians against Greeks from 1770 to 1820 and Then by Greeks after 1821
but it is certain that when Greek state stablished not 1 muslim Albanian or Turk existed at Peloponese,

*about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones

*their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian, 
in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language*


*West European admixture Latinocracy

*Peloponese due to her position had enough population traffic with West Europe,
Crusaders Francs Catalans Italians etc created castles and small kingdoms
Peloponese is affected by Francocracy Φραγκοκρατια from 1204 to 1430 (FranKs, Knights, Navarresse- Magna Societas)
and many parts/castles from Enetocracy Ενετοκρατια (Italy mainly Venice)

*
ROman era*

at the Roman era Achaia and Corinthos (North Peloponese) was a significant center for Roman world and army


*Now 
*I do not know how many marks left the above, countable on fingers or a consirable % , But these I believe are the main known devastations to Peloponese, 
ok maybe I lost one,

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## Angela

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?


It's time to retire these fossil studies from the 1800s.

A very large and reputable study was done of Balkan populations. There was no appreciable genetic difference between Bosnian Croats (Catholics), Bosnian Serbs (Orthodox), and Bosniaks (Muslim). I'm sure some people don't like to dwell on that given the idiocy they're used to spouting and the atrocities they committed. Do you have any idea why? *It's because those* *Muslims descend from people of the Balkans who converted to Islam. Get it?

*See: Koracevic et al
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

Balkan genetics.PNG

Also, it was you who pointed out there was a huge transfer of people in the 1920s between Greece and Turkey. Of course, contrary to what you asserted, that would have had no effect on the genetics of the study participants, which you failed to realize. Muslims went to Anatolia and Greek Orthodox came back to Greece. 

So, a lot of Greeks who had converted to Islam moved to Greece, as well as the actual "genetic" Turks. That's where all those people went. That's also why there are so many younger Turks who show up as pretty Greek, in addition to the population processes that affected far western Turkey. What is so difficult about this?

Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages. They had their own schools, their own stores, their own churches. After the second World War many of them went right back to Germany.

The Ashkenazim are another example. They spent hundreds of years surrounded by Poles and Russians and Lithuanians, and how much gene flow did they acquire? IBD doesn't lie: astonishingly little.

Stop thinking that Europe was like the U.S. It wasn't then and it isn't now. 

This is the trouble with trying to make sense of population genetics without any background in the history of the countries being discussed, not to mention when bizarre agendas are involved.

If you really believed some of this anthrofora nonsense, you've been taken for a ride. The modern people of the old Magna Graecia are extremely similar to the modern people of mainland Greece. Deal with it.

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## Angela

The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the *Peloponnese* with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others*.* Those groups are indeed on a cline, but *the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians. 
*
My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?

Greek Genetics.jpg

Click to enlarge. 

The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia. 

Are they identical? No, they're not, but they're pretty darn close. What else would you expect for goodness sakes, when so much of Magna Graecia was settled from there?

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## ngc598

Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!

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## Tomenable

> Do you need another example? German descent and German speaking villages existed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, and no, there wasn't any appreciable level of intermarriage, and I know that from people from those villages.


If there was no intermarriage, then they should cluster in any PCA or GEDmatch with West Germans (which is where their Medieval ancestors came from). I guess it is easy to check. Just find someone who has all 16 (or at least the vast majority) of great-great grandparents from those particular villages, test their DNA and see if they cluster with West Germans.




> The Ashkenazim are another example.


The Ashkenazim are a *totally different story*. I will give you two examples, check on your own:

This is an ethnic German with ancestry from my region*** - GEDmatch kit *A682720*
And here an Ashkenazi Jew with ancestry from my region - GEDmatch kit *T405698*

See which one has more of Slavic admixture (you can use for example Eurogenes K13 calculator).

***And 15 out of her 16 great-great-grandparents had German surnames (just Kopiske is Slavic):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Dmatch-results

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## Angela

> Fallmerayer, really? There are people in 2017 who take his wishwash seriously? Already in 1834, four years after he published his ... (whatever), he was removed from his teacher job, because nobody wanted to get his children educated by this deadhead. Now people are still debating his poppy seed induced phantasms? Biedermeier "scholars" - eek!


Truly amazing, isn't it? In 2017, after all these genetics papers, including ones on the Balkans.

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## Tomenable

Another Prussian Jew (this one appears to have more of Gentile admixture than the one above):

GEDmatch - *F425039*

But still he is modelled as *1/2 North Italian + 1/2 Palestinian* in Mixed Population Sharing.

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## Tomenable

*Pontic Greek* GEDmatch kit: *M171246*

*Source:* http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5972736/1/




> Ethnicity: Greek with Pontic Greek ancestry (public kit): M171246


Albanian: M635564
Greek: F434801

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## Pax Augusta

> Another Prussian Jew (this one appears to have more of Gentile admixture than the one above):.


What has it to do with this thread? We are discussing about Prussian Jews or Greeks in this thread? I'm probably missing something. :)

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## Angela

> My understanding is that Mussolini closed the Greek language schools in Italy in the 1920s. I also read that even today, Griko has not been entirely eradicated.


One of Mussolini's goals was to create a united Italy. Schools were to teach only in standard Italian (a form of Tuscan), he did close down certain schools, military people from the south were sent north and vice-versa, and on and on. I have to admit that my family did buy into that. Even years later, my father wouldn't let anyone speak dialect to me, either his or my mother's, because he wanted me to speak only "pure" Italian. It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think. The real death knell for dialects as well as other languages was the migration of southerners north starting in the 1950s and, maybe even more so, television.

Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Italy.svg.png

This linguistic map shows the areas where Griko is still spoken. Just click on it to enlarge it.
http://rickzullo.com/wp-content/uplo...-map-Italy.png

Just some background on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect

It's no longer spoken in my husband's ancestral areas.

However, in the Salento peninsula of Puglia, which among many other things, is a beautiful place for a summer vacation, there are still Griko speakers, and the Salento hosts a huge festival every August called the Taranta festival. They sing all the traditional songs and dance the pizzica. Groups singing Griko songs are often highlighted. You really should go if you can. It's so much fun, and I feel sure you'd fit right in. I'm convinced the pizzica was brought to Puglia from Greece. That's how the Maenads must have danced, or the women who danced with the "King" at the harvest festivals. :)

See "Kalinifta" below. I just love this song. Can you understand the lyrics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

A "fun" one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0IxC2834zk

Pizzica by one of the best ballerine, imo. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7-tbfs75Xw

There are pizzica performances on the big stages, but also in small town squares:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6AyVr-3P4

Random people are just out all night dancing. This woman does a traditional pizzica, and her daughter the more modern version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UHk-7uoFI

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## Pax Augusta

> It was also a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials, I think.


This is always understimated, that's extremely true that speaking a dialect instead of a correct Italian was often seen in the past as a sign of "lower class" credentials, on the other hand speaking a perfect Italian was seen as a way of advertising your "upper class" credentials.





> Italy is very liberal compared to countries like France, however, in "protecting" certain languages, and passing laws that encourage their survival, including Griko. I think it may be too late, however.


Indeed.

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## DuPidh

> Totally* irrelevant* point. *The genetics of these samples is dated to 1860.
> 
> *People should read papers before commenting on them, or at least read the summaries provided by other posters. They should also engage whatever brains they possess.
> 
> "*Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."
> 
> 
> *


The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!

----------


## Angela

> The author of this study is another Greek. He knows what point he has to make so he can manipulate the data to make his point. Surprise! After all those ethnic strives and mixtures, that history has recorded, Greeks have remained the same!Genes have not mixed!?? Had you known a bit history of King's Otto decree to force everyone in Greece to learn Greek would have also been surprised how those genes are the same like Greeks of middle ages!? Greeks invented Trojan Horse, whats for them to manipulate some data that nobody has checked their accuracy or has intention to check. It would be naive to believe that story!


This is total nonsense. 

This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.

See:
"*Design of the study and populations studied*

The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."

You are aware that libel is actionable, aren't you? These authors are named, they are professional scientists, imputations of dishonesty could affect their livelihoods. I think they perhaps should be informed of the statements you're making. If someone wants to find "real" names for a lawsuit, it can be done you know. I would take heed. 

Your hysteria is showing, doubtless because that house of cards is collapsing.

What is naive is to ever have believed half-baked theories, clearly agenda driven, based on "samples" which are totally unverifiable, and even if unfalsified, are at best self-selected, non-randomized, and perhaps admixed from numerous areas of Greece and the islands.

I would also point out that the authors are not claiming that the Greeks of the Peloponnese are some "pure" Greek group, whatever that even means. What they're saying is that the German "historian" was completely incorrect in saying that the Greeks of the Peloponnese were completely replaced with Slavs, which anyone with half a brain already knew. They're also saying that the people of the Peloponnese overlap with Sicilians. 

That's it. If you think the methodology is wrong and that these conclusions are incorrect, prove it. 

Btw, you are also imputing dishonesty to an entire ethnic group. That's another offense for which there are consequences.

----------


## Angela

> Yetos: *about ΤΣΑΚΩΝΕΣ Tsakones
> 
> their dialect come from antique and is clearly Dorian, 
> in fact it is the only live remnant of Dorian dialect in Greece.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language
> *


I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.

I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:

----------


## Yetos

> I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Yetos.
> 
> I do know, however, that there was a lot of settlement by Doric speakers in Magna Graecia. See here:




I said in Greece not in Italy.
Grico is also considered as Dorian to many.
Although it is connected and with Mediaeval devastations.

----------


## Nik

Interesting study, but I honestly don't see the point of it. Even the "Slavs" that invaded those lands were barely Slavs, just like today's Balkan Slavs, especially the southernmost ones. 

People need to realise that the Slavs and Goths only started as invading nomads that were later joined by hundreds of tribes of different ethnicity and languages who had a common goal, raid and find a better place to settle and live. The Goths themselves comprised of thousands of Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, and even Romans and Greeks who saw Rome as a bigger threat to their individual pockets than the invading barbarian pillagers. Same happened with Huns, meaning we're taking these political entities and trying to analyse the genetic influence they had on certain regions. 

Having said that, Peloponnesus has been inhabited for millenias by millions of people and a bunch of highly mixed northern nomadic tribes are not going to affect its genetic makeup at all to the point that even that 0.02% seems a lot. Probably what they're including as Slavic is the admixture brought by Vlachs from the Northern Balkans as they're high in I-Din just like the South Slavic speakers. Even if Slavs did indeed settle in high numbers in there, their percentage would have been decreased by the high number of Arvanite settlers with almost identical genetic makeup as the local Greeks. And some food for thought, many Albanian/Arvanite settlements in Greece were the result of them being hired as mercenaries by the Serbian Kingdom, meaning even their armies were not made up of only "pure Serbs", but a mix of every ethnic group being conquered or simply hired as mercenaries.

If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians. Could it be that they will overlap so much with the Albanians that it will ruin their Greekness? 

And that crap about connecting the similarities between the South Italians to the Greek colonization is another far fetched theory when the entire Southern Europe share Pre-Indo-European links with each other and we're talking about real massive population movements expanding continuously, not some bunch of Spartan hoplites founding cities on the coast of South Italy and immediately changing the percentage of haplogroup E-V13 and J2a. 

On the other hand, did they include a haplogroup breakdown for Tsakonians and Maniots specifically as I did not come across any?

----------


## Hauteville

I've not understand these PCAs; why in the fig a half of the Peloponneseans plot north of Sicilians, and why in the fig b is the opposite? In the fig c they close the gap between Italians/Sicilians and Aegean and Anatolian Greeks?

url immagine

----------


## LABERIA

_"The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.”
_*Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer*I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.

----------


## LABERIA

If there is an ethnic group among the today inhabitants of Greece, who deserve to be called "natives", this are the Albanians, or Arvanites. The rest are newcomers.

----------


## LATGAL

This LABERIA character is a notorious ***** and shitposter who adds the same panoply of quotes, half-baked and out of context, in every Greek-related topic opened on various forums throughout the internet (one can look at his posting careers on forums like "the apricity" to see how obsessed he is with Greeks) and it's sad to see that he frequenlty does it on topics created even on this forum that's supposed to be somewhat strictly moderated.

We already saw the Albanian inanity concering any Greek topic in the form of other posters but this guy takes the cake.

Are you going to destroy every Greek-related topic created on this forum too, *****?

----------


## DuPidh

> This is total nonsense. 
> 
> This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.
> 
> See:
> "*Design of the study and populations studied*
> 
> The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."
> 
> ...


Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?

----------


## Tomenable

On Anthrogenica they wrote that Slavs who invaded the Peloponnesus had most likely already been Balkan-admixed (after mixing with Balkan populations who lived to the north of Greece, in what is now Bulgaria, Serbia and Macedonia):




> Should be an interesting read. Quickly, if they compared putative Slavic admxiture in greece against, say , Poles, it'll be an understimate, *as the Slavs which moved in Peloponessus would already be 'Balkan admixed'.* I guess without aDNA ; and a pre-determined hypothesis, I'd take this paper with a grain of salt.





> Yes, why do they compare them to Russians and Poles and not to other Balkan Slavs. For example Bulgarians, considered a Slavic population, has much more in common with the Greeks than with Russians. At east they admit that Anatolian Greeks are not similar even to Greeks from Peloponnese, let alone Northern Greeks. I am tired of fighting those claiming Greeks are a homogeneous ethnicity. *They are also preoccupied with ancient Greeks settling in Italy and forget the long colonisation of Greece by Venetians and other West Europeans living in different Crusader feudal states, which survived long after Ottoman invasion.*


Invading Slavs were not "100% Ukrainian-like", so the degree of population replacement could be higher.

----------


## MarkoZ

> _"The race of the Hellenes has been wiped out of Europe. Physical beauty, intellectual brilliance, innate harmony and simplicity, art, competition, city, village, the splendour of column and temple – indeed, even the name has disappeared from the surface of the Greek continent… for not even a drop of noble and undiluted Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Christian population of present-day Greece.”
> _*Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer*
> 
> 
> I think that this quote from Fallmerayer can be very helpful for this discussion here.


I have another interesting and helpful quote:




> While Nordic elements, combining sometimeswith Mediterranean stock, built the great civilisationsof ancient Greece and Rome, it was racial decay thatresulted in the collapse of both these great nations,and their consequent destruction by a new wave ofNordic peoples from northern Emope. It was the Nordicpeoples, combined partly with Mediterranean cousins,who created the great art and culture of thet-.Iiddle Ages, and again the same Nordic Europeanstock who brought about the Renaissance in NordicLombardy, together with the Reformation movement. lways culture centred, throughout Europe, amongstthe Nordic aristocracy who for a thousand years ormore after the Gothic period succeeded in retainingtheir racial identity, even in Spain and Portugal, wheretheir numbers were always relatively few. But steadily,the influence of Nordic, and even true-Mediterraneanblood, has been running slowly out, until today _littletrue Nordic or Mediterranean blood is to be foundin southern· and central Europe.Steady immigration into Europe from Africa hasdone much to destroy the old Mediterranean stock inthe so-called 'Latin' countries, while in central EuropeAlpine influences are spreading widely, and todaydominate the bulk of the continental area between theTeutoburger Wald and the Mediterranean Sea. At thesame time constant internecine warfare has destroyedthe Nordic element, always attracted· to the scene ofmilitary activities more than any other race, whilesocial revolution has uprooted or annihiliated the Nordicaristocracy in most non-Nordic lands for Communismwas never an ally of ruling racial castes. Eyidenceof the vast racial changes which have taken place inEurope, and are even now taking place with ever increasingrapidity, is to be found in any graveyard, theexcavation of which reveals the knowledge that themodern inhabitants of central and southern Europe,whom we see walking the streets today, are in the mainfar removed from the old European stock.

----------


## MarkoZ

> Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?


It's obvious that there is an Euro-East-Mediterranean cluster that includes South Italy, the Aegean, Siciliy, some Albanians and a few other populations. You'll either have to come up with a very complex explanation for the formation of such a cluster from the movements of Slavs, Vikings, Goths and Arabs, or simply accept that perhaps present day Greeks might have some similarity to the people who lived there before and spoke the same language.

----------


## Hauteville

> Fallmerayer was educated as a Greek lover and admirer of their culture. He turned bitter when he visited Greece since a large parts of the population did not speak the language and Greece he had read in books was not there. Fallmerayer is remembered as antislavic. Many ethnic groups had settled there. Knowing that Sicily has Germanic and Arab layers of populations how the genetic makeup of Peloponnese closely resemble Sicily?


Arabs to say Berbers were expelled from Sicily, if we have Arab admixture (not confirmed by any genetic study who have calculated Berber admixture as very negligible), Peloponneseans have Turkish admixture. ;)

Repetita iuvant

At this respect, the distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup E-M81 is widely associated in literature with recent gene flows from North-Africa [49]. Besides the low frequency (1.5%) of E-M81 lineages in general observed in our SSI dataset, the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 [8] has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool. 

However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (32611345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0096074

----------


## LABERIA

> I have another interesting and helpful quote:


Who is the author?

----------


## last-resort

> *REPORT ON THE ALBANIANS OF GREECE*
>  by the Commission of the European Community .... In Greece, there are only Greeks.”


Would be interested in a link to the Report cited above. Would like to see its conclusions.

As to the quote of 'only Greeks' in Greece, that is national policy. The Turks have the same view. So, it should not be surprising that knowledge of Greek is what the schools and official entities would emphasize. What people do in their homes is their own business.

----------


## Megalophias

> If they really want to prove the Greekness of the Peloponnesians, why don't they just study the biggest linguistic minority in the region, the Arvanites. And it's surprising how out of every nationality used for comparison they forget the Albanians.


They didn't only leave out Albanians, but everyone south of Ukraine. There are no comparisons with South Slavs either. (Serbs and Macedonians are listed in the populations used but appear nowhere in the results as far as I can see). Their conclusions seem to be based on ADMIXTURE and PCA without nearby reference populations, and IBD analysis is only applied to internal relationships of the Peleponnese populations. It is an interesting investigation of the local structure but they really are not trying very hard to find relationships with other populations _in the Balkans_. 

Not that I believe the native Greeks magically evaporated in the Ottoman period, and Kushniarevish found rather low IBD sharing between Slavs and Greek, but still.

----------


## Angela

I* am only going to be saying this once, people: Cut it out.

This thread is not, repeat, not, going to be ruined and turned into the setting for another Balkan War. 

This thread is not about the treatment of Albanians or Albanian speakers in Greece, or even the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians, which obviously exist. 

For those who don't see the point of the paper, just look at how that fossil Falmerayer still gets thrown out there.

@Marko,
I hope that quote was posted in a spirit of irony.

@Nik,
Obviously, the genetic links between Greece and Italy are multiple, reaching back into the Neolithic and the Bronze Age. That doesn't mean that the Greek settlement of Magna Graecia had no impact. Nor does it mean that there wasn't gene flow in the other direction as well. 

As to the "Slavs", I don't know how "mixed" the group was that actually entered Greece. I see this comment often, but I don't see any proof provided. Were there long periods of hiatus along the way, where they mixed with locals, before moving onto Greece? Do you have actual documentary evidence for it? We certainly have no ancient dna, which would actually answer a lot of these questions.

I also wish there had been comparisons with other Balkan populations, as well as with other areas of Greece and Italy (and something besides PCA and ADMIXTURE). However, would similarities between northern Balkan peoples and Greeks mean that the incoming "Slavs" to Greece were mixed?

Is it really news to anyone that "South Slavs", while they may speak Slavic languages, aren't actually "Slavs" genetically? The paper is addressing the question of how much non-Balkan actual Slavic genetics is in the people of the Peloponnese.

I actually think Poles are a good choice for seeing overall historic "Slav" similarity. Look at the IBD sharing analysis from Ralph and Coop.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NsM0V5DAj...op_2_small.png

Oh, for new members to the forum, I know how provocative some of this stuff can be, but stay civil, and no cursing.*

----------


## LATGAL

Your post is appreciated but this particular user does this in every forum he participates in (and he's participated in plenty under different names). He skirts with getting banned until the forum owners finally get tired of his bringing his Balkan Wars into every topic that concerns his various "enemies". Just letting you know since he's notorious and I can see he's done similar in this forum in the past as well.

Anyway, take care.

----------


## Nik

@Angela
Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy. Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on. 

With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.

----------


## Angela

> @Angela
> Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy. Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on. 
> 
> With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.


We are basically in agreement, except that we may differ as to the extent of the impact of the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia. 

Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters.

----------


## last-resort

Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.

As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.

As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.

I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.

----------


## Nik

> We basically in agreement, except that we may differ as to the extent of the impact of the Greek colonization of Magna Graecia. 
> 
> Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters.


there r simply way too many migrations from different sources to consider the colonization from mainland Greece as the main reason. Even the Albanians r enough to compete in numbers with the ancient colonisation of Magna Graecia. Italy has always been populous enough to not be that genetically influenced by a few cities on its shores. 

And with regards to appearance, I'm surprised that people find them that similar. Italians have a very distinct look no matter if they're from North or South. I've visited South Italy and Sicily many times so I have enough knowledge on the appearance topic. 

Back to topic, I still think this study was a waste of money. It looks like they did all that to disprove a deceased scientist from 2 centuries ago when the Slavic admixture in Greece is not even a delicate topic nowadays. Even the Catalans could have had a higher impact.

----------


## last-resort

That is disappointing Angela, your 'basically in agreement' gives credence to his Albanian massive waves trope, which disappeared by 1821 per Turkish viewpoint at least the 'massive' aspect. As I stated in my earliest post here, would that the authors had included an Albanian comparison! Perhaps a reliable Albanian autosomal DNA test group doesn't exist?

But then it seems that the FYROM crowd would not be satisfied with that comparison if it could be made as (speculating here, but not much) the true Albanian Admixture is simply the Greek admixture, regardless of location.

----------


## last-resort

Angela, here ("Even the Albanians r enough..."), Swiss Nik is asserting an Albanian core to your Italy. Glad to see there is no limit to Albanian impact in this nor indeed, any region of the world.

----------


## LABERIA

> I* am only going to be saying this once, people: Cut it out.
> 
> This thread is not, repeat, not, going to be ruined and turned into the setting for another Balkan War. 
> 
> This thread is not about the treatment of Albanians or Albanian speakers in Greece, or even the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians, which obviously exist. 
> 
> For those who don't see the point of the paper, just look at how that fossil Falmerayer still gets thrown out there.
> 
> @Marko,
> ...


If there's one thing i can not understand is how exactly can be considered to quote one of the leading experts of the nineteenth century, a person who has personally visited Greece as Fallmerayer, a provocation, and against the rules of this forum. And from the other hand you allow a person as Yetos that in all his posts attacks the Albanians with a vulgar vocabulary, the last in this thread. I can do a whole thread with the offenses of Yetos against my people. The way you operate as a moderator is unheard.
Please, make a black list with the authors that you don't like.

----------


## Angela

> Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.
> 
> As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.
> 
> As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.
> 
> I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.


You're quite welcome. As I said, I have an interest in it because of my husband's background. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR-cZ6IORIc

These are Griko speakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww

As to the dance style, my reference was to ancient Greece, the Greece of the Dionysian festivals, not the Greece of the modern era, even loosely defined. 

The pizzica is basically the specific Salento version of the tarantella. That is thought to have originated in a dance ritual performed by women who had been bitten by a tarantula, and the dancing was to drive out the poison. As time passed, certain of the movements were incorporated into dances performed by women with women, and men with men, and eventually by women and men. In very recent times it has acquired a more theatrical aspect as it is often performed by professionals. 

"Pizzica originated as the music of _tarantismo, a cultural phenomenon peculiar to Salento that, according to researcher Giorgio Di Lecce, dates back to the sixth century. Its origins, scholars say, lie in ecstatic Dionysian worship rites.__Tarantismo employed music and dance in a symbolic ritual to cure peasants, mainly women, from maladies purportedly caused by the poisonous bite of the tarantula. (Pizzica derives from pizzicare, meaning to bite or sting.) The afflicted would dance, to the point of collapsing, to the frenetic rhythms of the pizzica songs played by a small group that included tamburello (frame drum), violin, chitarra battente (a large four- or five-string guitar indigenous to Southern Italy), and organetto (a type of accordion)."
_
The older woman in this video is performing a more traditional version of the pizzica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-UHk-7uoFI

This couple out in the piazza are not professionals. This is the way people dance it today, in what could loosely be called the "courtship" style, I think. (There are other types, including some between men which mimes a sword fight.) It's not the version of their great-grandparents, but it's still descended from it. That's reflected in part by the fact that for all the sexual tension between the man and the woman in this dance, he never touches her. Apparently, in the past, if you touched her you married her. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsV93f8f-VY

Anyway, I've taken us off topic, so I'll stop here. :) In fact, I may move this discussion to a dedicated thread.

----------


## LABERIA

> Would be interested in a link to the Report cited above. Would like to see its conclusions.
> 
> As to the quote of 'only Greeks' in Greece, that is national policy. The Turks have the same view. So, it should not be surprising that knowledge of Greek is what the schools and official entities would emphasize. What people do in their homes is their own business.


I can't link because this can cause to me an another infraction. But you know very well the story of your country. 
About the policy followed by your country and Turkey, i agree with you. You are neighbouring countries, stessa faccia, stessa razza.

----------


## Angela

> If there's one thing i can not understand is how exactly can be considered to quote one of the leading experts of the nineteenth century, a person who has personally visited Greece as Fallmerayer, a provocation, and against the rules of this forum. And from the other hand you allow a person as Yetos that in all his posts attacks the Albanians with a vulgar vocabulary, the last in this thread. I can do a whole thread with the offenses of Yetos against my people. The way you operate as a moderator is unheard.
> Please, make a black list with the authors that you don't like.


No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem. 

This thread is *not* going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?

The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was *genetics*.

That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it. 

These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.

----------


## Angela

> That is disappointing Angela, your 'basically in agreement' gives credence to his Albanian massive waves trope, which disappeared by 1821 per Turkish viewpoint at least the 'massive' aspect. As I stated in my earliest post here, would that the authors had included an Albanian comparison! Perhaps a reliable Albanian autosomal DNA test group doesn't exist?
> 
> But then it seems that the FYROM crowd would not be satisfied with that comparison if it could be made as (speculating here, but not much) the true Albanian Admixture is simply the Greek admixture, regardless of location.


Good grief, so Nik is Albanian too, not Swiss? So, that's a false flag he's flying? How do you people keep track of these things? How many games are being played under the surface? You know what, I don't want to know. This is why I don't frequent anthrofora. 

What massive Albanian waves? 

What I was agreeing with is that the genetic similarity between Greece (specifically here Peloponnese) and Sicily in particular would have many sources, the Neolithic movements, the Bronze Age, and, of course, the period of settlement of Magna Graecia. I thought and think that "Nik" is clearly minimizing its effect. There is also gene flow going the other way, although it may not have had the same kind of effect. 

Separating out which alleles came when and specifically with whom might be very difficult even with dstats and ancient samples. 

How could anyone who has been studying these things disagree with that? The Albereshe certainly did come to various areas of southern Italy, but their influence would be several orders of magnitude smaller because these were small movements of people. Again, their dna is heavily Neolithic and has been impacted by Bronze Age migrations, so it might be difficult to pinpoint exact percentages. 

People have got to become accustomed to the idea that modern population/ethnic groups didn't exist in antiquity, much less back in the Bronze or Neolithic. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

----------


## LABERIA

> No one was issued an infraction for referring to this outdated scholar or his ideas. You were issued an infraction for finding and posting quotes from him deliberately designed to bolster your theories that there are no Greeks, just Albanians who learned Greek, which is the kind of ultra-nationalist attack on another ethnicity which seems to be the hallmark of Balkan discussions, certainly on anthrofora, and which leads to insults, flame wars, and other mayhem. 
> 
> This thread is *not* going to be used for that purpose. Am I clear?
> 
> The Albanians were not even included in the study. There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians. Period. The method of proving that was *genetics*.
> 
> That's what we do here; discuss genetics, not some half-baked fantasy of an early 19th century German which was based on his totally subjective "observations" and which are contradicted by actual documentation. Those days are over, just like the days when people could claim that the Bosniaks are Turks in disguise, no matter how much some people may not like it. 
> 
> These questions are going to be resolved by genetics one way or another, not by nationalist myths. Whatever the science shows, it will show. I'm perfectly happy with that as regards my own ethnicity. The people of the Balkans had better accustom themselves to it as well.


Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors. 
The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there. 
About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something. 
If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If 90% of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?

----------


## Angela

> Who decide if a scholar is outdated? If you have an list with outdated and forbiden authors, please post it. So in the future we can avoid to use this authors. 
> The quote from Fallmerayer was not just an random quote, is his conclusion after he visited Greece personally. I doubt if someone here has visited Greece in year 1832, he was there. 
> About the rest of the post of half-baked fantasies, etc,let me tell you something. 
> If from all the historical credibile sources, the population of country is half Albanian and majority of this people can speak only Albanian and not another language. If 90%of the heroes of the liberation war are Albanians. If the first President, Vice President of the country, the Speaker of the Parliament, are Albanians and can speak only Albanian and not any other language. If the speeches of the members of the Parliament are always in Albanian. Then what name you give to this country? How the genetic explain all this situation?


This is your last warning. This thread is not about the Albanians or a comparison of Albanians and Greeks. Get back on topic. 

Claims about "ethnicity" are to be based on genetics for the most part. Historical documentation, if the claims can be proved, are obviously helpful, but that's about it.

----------


## last-resort

Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks

----------


## Yetos

Funny isn't it?

after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,

and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
some believe they are millions, 

reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.

----------


## Boreas

I was always wondering different Greek people. Now thanks for that. Cappadocian, Pontos, Asia Minor and Peloponnese. Just Cappadocian and Pontos are more far then I thought and it is good to see that clear borders between Pontic-Cappadocian then Peloponnese, not like West Asian and Peloponnese.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry but I didn't get how it is relevant with medieval Peloponnesean Greeks, and the similarity of Peloponnesean Greeks(1800's) and Sicilians-South Italian

If you want to deny the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, you have to check current Peloponnesean and medievals, not like it. 

I agree these words 

*"Only ancient dna will really clarify these matters."*

* 

*

----------


## Hauteville

> Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks


Search infos about Arbereshe peoples in South Italy and Sicily.

----------


## Hauteville

A key of answer is surely the aDNA; I would think bronze age populations of South Italy and Greece were close together, not just Magna Grecia, not just Roman settlements to Greece, not just Eastern Roman Empire input and not just Athens and Neopatria under Sicilian control in 1300-1400, or Corf under Neapolitan control.

----------


## Angela

> Angela Is there representative/reliable autosomal DNA for Albanians? You seem to suggest this given the Albereshe comment. If so, any reason why the authors wouldn't have included them as a comparison? Finally, if Pelop Admixture matches Sicilian so closely, and the latter is not influenced by Albanian input, can it be deduced that therefore Pelop admixture has not been impacted by Albanian - all meaning 'significantly' or to any significant extent - whatever modifiers. Thanks


I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.

You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.

See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe

You'll find links in those threads to studies of the Arbereshe by Italian scholars.

Generally as to the Arberesh, if many of them came from southern Albania and even parts of Greece, and given the similar population movements that affected all these areas, including southern Italy and Sicily, I think attempts to distinguish these people autosomally are going to be a bit difficult. 

I don't think dodecad project was ever able to get Albanians for the project, but perhaps Eurogenes included them. Unfortunately I don't have a link to the "national" results sheet, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

----------


## Angela

> Funny isn't it?
> 
> after the atrocities against Arbanites at the times of Orlov's revolt,
> seems someones today remember them forgeting the past,
> 
> and although all official clubs and unions of Arbanites estimate them today about 150-200 000,
> some believe they are millions, 
> 
> reading Fallmayer and A Kolla seems to be not good idea for the brain.


You cut it out, too. Any more of this stuff and I'll start handing out infractions like Easter chocolates.

----------


## Angela

> I'll direct you to the appropriate threads, but any discussion of it would be off topic.
> 
> You're free, of course, to comment in these dedicated threads.
> 
> See:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ight=Arbereshe
> 
> ...


I'd just add that any Albanians who have tested with 23andme or other companies and run their data through the Gedmatch calculators could compare themselves to the Greek sample, which in most cases is from Thessaly unless otherwise labeled. 

You might also want to take a look at this, which gives some idea, although AIMS are also an outmoded and not totally reliable measure.
http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/articl...115-3/abstract

"The results were compared to other population samples previously typed for the same markers. The panel of AIMs was capable of differentiating the Albanian population from other population groups except for the Greek population. These results were expected due to the history and the geographical proximity of Albania and Greece."

There don't seem to be very many Albanian samples at all, certainly not any released for use by labs, which is undoubtedly why they're not included in these studies.

----------


## trdbr1234

I question any study of the Peloponnese without first analyzing or explaining the Arvanita element. This study, even if it has any validity, is therefore flawed.

----------


## last-resort

I prepared the list below based on this link

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autoso..._dodecad.shtml


Distribution maps of autosomal admixtures in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa


Edit: The list below assumes the existence of an autosomal DNA database for Albania; but if the maps were not prepared using same, then this list is no better than the fancy maps from which it is derived. end-Edit.

The list shows the values (or no difference) between Greeks and Albanians, respectively. The values represent a range (not shown), so that for example '80' is a range that is actually 80-90 in this case. I thought it enough to show a difference. 

The values with a '/' denote a region in the country with a different value. Edit: The first value is always the most southern. As such, these reflect a gradient within the country. end-Edit.

If I made an error it is unintentional and related to interpreting the colors differences.

I marked those categories with differences by an * prefix.

To me, it would seem that there is a difference in the two countries' admixtures. It would be useful if the authors of the Stamatoyannopoulos paper would issue a supplemental report to assess these differences for the Peloponnesean populations. (After he explains the fig a and b apparent discrepancy.)

Greece Albania
*Early European Farmer (EEF) 80 70
*Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) 5/7.5 10
West European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) no diff 5
*Northwest European admixture 5/10 15
East European admixture no diff 10
Mediterranean admixture no diff 50?
West Asian admixture no diff 20
Atlantic admixture no diff 5
Atlantic_Med admixture no diff 15?
Caucasian admixture no diff 20
*Gedrosian admixture 2.5 2.5/5 upper half
Southwest Asian admixture no diff 5
Red Sea (Horn of Africa) admixture no diff 2.5
African admixture no diff 0.5
East Asian admixture no diff < 0.5

----------


## Angela

I don't know what reference populations were used, but that's also what the academic study using AIMS showed: minimal differences between Greeks and Albanians. That's also what can be seen in numerous academic studies. I didn't say that researchers haven't collected and used Albanian samples. However, samples were often not made public in the past for certain populations, i.e. if samples weren't collected as part of the HGDP or 1000 genomes projects, so some of the gedmatch calculators don't have them. 

See: Novembre et al. Click to enlarge. The Albanian samples overlap most of the Greek ones.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...07331-f1.2.jpg
See: Haak et al
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...re13673-f2.jpg 

Generally, as far as Italian populations are concerned, Tuscans are closer to Albanians, and North Italians to Bulgarians. The differences are more substantial, however.

Of course, a lot of studies used to use only one small Greek sample, the one taken, I believe, in Thessaly.* Of course, being an academic sample, care would have been taken to make sure that all four grandparents came from the area, so, almost certainly, grandparents born before 1920. That's the standard protocol for genetics studies. Still, it's one very small group from, I believe, one area in the very north of the country, in a very heterogeneous country, with, as the authors imply, a north/south cline not unlike Italy's. There might indeed be more of a difference between Albanians and people of the Peleponnesse, but that's just a guess. 

*If anyone has a cite to a study which answers that question, that would be very much appreciated. 

While you're waiting for the answer to that question, I'm sure there are Albanians who have tested and have run their raw data through gedmatch.com calculators. If they've posted anywhere, anyone can go to dodecad, for one, and compare against these northern Greeks. That should give a rough idea. 

@last-resort,
There is no discrepancy, to my knowledge, in the two PCAs. That's how PCA works. There are going to be slight differences depending on the populations being compared, or, in the "universe". If someone knows differently, please correct the record.

People, there are threads on Albanian genetics. Use them for detailed discussions. Find them through the search engine.

----------


## Angela

Something interesting in the Supplement. The Sicilians don't actually overlap most closely with the major Maniot cluster. The closest match on the PCA, anyway, is with "East Tay", except for two outliers.
Peloponesse and Sicily PCA.PNG

----------


## Yetos

> I was always wondering different Greek people. Now thanks for that. Cappadocian, Pontos, Asia Minor and Peloponnese. Just Cappadocian and Pontos are more far then I thought and it is good to see that clear borders between Pontic-Cappadocian then Peloponnese, not like West Asian and Peloponnese.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Sorry but I didn't get how it is relevant with medieval Peloponnesean Greeks, and the similarity of Peloponnesean Greeks(1800's) and Sicilians-South Italian
> 
> If you want to deny the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks, you have to check current Peloponnesean and medievals, not like it. 
> 
> I agree these words 
> ...




Indeed that is something I also observed,

cause Kapadokia was not heavily colonised, but Pontos was,
and the study gives first connection with Kappadokia,
but Pontos was another tribe Ionia and not Doric ,

I expect Pontos to be more connected with Athens Miletos and central Greece.

Pontos is a mix of Greek colonies of Ionians and Aryan-Iranian tribes,
the unification happened after Alexander and the first king was a Persian satrape Μιθριδατης Mithridates

----------


## Yetos

> Angela, thank you for the Griko notes and the pizzica orientation. I understood a few words of the Griko song.
> 
> As to the pizzica dance, it is unfamiliar to me. Most Greek dances featuring women are sedate and almost always in 3 or more dancing. (My limited experience.) Even the 'belly dance' tsifteteli while it has a lot of hip swinging, the feet do not move nearly as much as what i saw in the pizzica. And I've never seen such twirling. Having said that, Greek culture is very vast, it is not for me to rule it out.
> 
> As for the town square dance, male-female dancing - as pairs - is quite rare in traditional Greek dancing. I saw a dance troop -non Greeks - purport to show a Greek dance featuring paired dancing. However, in the Kalamatianos circle dance, men and women and children can make up the 'chorus line' hand in hand - particularly among family and familiars.
> 
> I think it is wonderful that traces - fun traces- of a Greek presence on the Italian mainland exist.


tsifteteli is not a Greek dance , it is Anatolian or Turkish, but stayed as permanent to Greek culture.
Zeimpekiko is a Frygian dance,
and indeed 99,% of Greek dances are circle dances

----------


## Hauteville

> Something interesting in the Supplement. The Sicilians don't actually overlap most closely with the major Maniot cluster. The closest match on the PCA, anyway, is with "East Tay", except for two outliers.
> Peloponesse and Sicily PCA.PNG


Quite interesting, I want to see a comparison between Siracusa and Corinto and between Messina and Messenia who were the two most Peloponneseans colonies of Sikelia and by the most important of Megale Hellas.

----------


## kostop

"Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks."

Very little. The two communities were almost segregated on the basis of religion, as Greeks were Christians the Ottomans were Muslims. Intermarriages were not allowed and whoever converted to Islam automatically joined the Ottoman community, regardless of their ethnic origin. In fact, the offspring of those few converts had to leave and resettle in Turkey with the population exchange program that took place in the 1920s. 

"How could you believe this study?"

I can believe it because it is a peer review study, conducted by a reputable istitution and published in a scientific publication, not an uninformed opinion based on superficial knowledge.

----------


## kostop

Wow, this was an interesting thread that has totally gone to the dogs thanks to all this nationalistic crap.

I will try to stay on topic and speak about genetic origin of Peloponneseans (I am half Peloponnesean half italian, btw). Nobody questions that Peloponneseans and/or other Greeks have some Arvanite heritage. From what I've read somewhere it is estimated to be around 10%-15% on average based on number of settlements and population compared to the total, in the 19th century. And WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, the Arvanites were assimilated very early, fought bravely side by side with the older Greeks against the occupiers and they have always embraced their Greek identity. Plus, both Greek and Arbanite populations have lived in the region side by side for millenia, there is even a theory that Pelasgians and Illyrianns were related, therefore it is very difficult to differentiate them based on haplogroups or autosomal markers. 
But as others said, this paper is NOT about the Arvanites; it is about the genetic similarities between modern Peloponneseans and the invading slavic tribes of the 6th-7th century.
Oh, and since certain contributors want to drag us back to the pre-genetic era when Fallmerayer's nonsense was popular among 19th century German romantisists, they should look up the grudge he had with King Otto of Greece.

----------


## Hauteville

> Wow, this was an interesting thread that has totally gone to the dogs thanks to all this nationalistic crap.
> 
> I will try to stay on topic and speak about genetic origin of Peloponneseans (I am half Peloponnesean half italian, btw). Nobody questions that Peloponneseans and/or other Greeks have some Arvanite heritage. From what I've read somewhere it is estimated to be around 10%-15% on average based on number of settlements and population compared to the total, in the 19th century. And WE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, the Arvanites were assimilated very early, fought bravely side by side with the older Greeks against the occupiers and they have always embraced their Greek identity. Plus, both Greek and Arbanite populations have lived in the region side by side for millenia, there is even a theory that Pelasgians and Illyrianns were related, therefore it is very difficult to differentiate them based on haplogroups or autosomal markers. 
> But as others said, this paper is NOT about the Arvanites; it is about the genetic similarities between modern Peloponneseans and the invading slavic tribes of the 6th-7th century.
> Oh, and since certain contributors want to drag us back to the pre-genetic era when Fallmerayer's nonsense was popular among 19th century German romantisists, they should look up the grudge he had with King Otto of Greece.


And the same coastal Albania had Greek colonies in the past. Greek colonization was everywhere, incredible...

upload immagini gratis

----------


## last-resort

> I don't know what reference populations were used, but that's also what the academic study using AIMS showed: minimal differences between Greeks and Albanians. 
> 
> @last-resort,
> There is no discrepancy, to my knowledge, in the two PCAs. That's how PCA works. There are going to be slight differences depending on the populations being compared, or, in the "universe". If someone knows differently, please correct the record.


 (I do not yet know how to use the multi-quote feature.)

Thank you for the 2 images. The first is especially useful.

As to the 'minimal difference' In reality there is a difference. There naturally would be similarities as they are neighbors and have moved in, through and out of each others' territories. I showed a difference in my 'map study' list, and you did via the first image. Knowing through actual data and analytics would be greatly comforting so I do hope that the study authors will add a supplement with that comparison. Also, given the difference of the Maniots and Tsakones with the other Pelops, then there is near certainty that they will bear no similarity to the Albanians. But without their input, perhaps the remainder will be closer to the Albanians than is the overall picture. It would be good to know so that the Albanian/FYROM zealots will either be totally defeated or have real data to support their non-scientific views.

As to the figures - PCA, I did look into the PCA calculation, but being new to me I didn't comment. My guess would have been as you said, that the PCA being based on deviation, the data would naturally influence the results/presentation. As it is, the Italians results are fine (it seems when comparing Fig a with Fig b) with the vertical axis expanded, but they are shifted on the same scale horizontally with the new data set. The Pelops and Sicilians are very definitely affected by the new set of comparisons.

----------


## last-resort

"Like frogs around a pond," said Plato, "we have settled down upon the shores of this sea."

http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/AGW/Aegean.htm

----------


## last-resort

> And the same coastal Albania had Greek colonies in the past. Greek colonization was everywhere, incredible...


"Like frogs around a pond," said Plato, "we have settled down upon the shores of this sea."


http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/AGW/Aegean.htm

----------


## last-resort

> tsifteteli is not a Greek dance , it is Anatolian or Turkish, but stayed as permanent to Greek culture.
> Zeimpekiko is a Frygian dance,
> and indeed 99,% of Greek dances are circle dances


Try as you might I did not say that the tsifteteli is a Greek dance. While 'Zeimpekiko is a Frygian dance,' is fascinating, I never said anything related to it either. Please re-read. if you figure out how to delete an entry might want to do that and tell me how.

----------


## LABERIA

> And the same coastal Albania had Greek colonies in the past. Greek colonization was everywhere, incredible...
> 
> upload immagini gratis


Sorry but your map is wrong.

----------


## last-resort

> There were two points being made: the people of the Peloponnese are not transplanted "Slavs" mixed with newly arrived "Turks", and there are strong genetic similarities between the people of the Peloponesse and the Sicilians.


The study also addressed Armenians and Mardaites (Maronites as proxy). Study quotes, below.

Also the study conclusions cited Italians in quantified terms with regard to the 'separate Pelop peoples' - my quotes - the Maniots and Tsakones. Study quote below.

There are also other quotes that note that the Pelops are distinct from other groups.

"Peloponneseans differ from the Armenians by PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis (Supplementary Figure 3). Collectively, these results are incompatible with the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponneseans and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers."


"PCA and ADMIXTURE analyses failed to show any close relationship between Maniots and the Maronites {Mardaites} (Supplementary Figure 5)"


"Compared to the very low ancestry shared with the Slavs, South Tsakonia and Deep Mani share 14 and 25% ancestry with the Italians. North Tsakonia, East and West Tayetos share from 41 to 57% ancestry with the Italians."

----------


## Angela

> (I do not yet know how to use the multi-quote feature.)
> 
> Thank you for the 2 images. The first is especially useful.
> 
> As to the 'minimal difference' In reality there is a difference. There naturally would be similarities as they are neighbors and have moved in, through and out of each others' territories. I showed a difference in my 'map study' list, and you did via the first image. Knowing through actual data and analytics would be greatly comforting so I do hope that the study authors will add a supplement with that comparison. Also, given the difference of the Maniots and Tsakones with the other Pelops, then there is near certainty that they will bear no similarity to the Albanians. But without their input, perhaps the remainder will be closer to the Albanians than is the overall picture. It would be good to know so that the Albanian/FYROM zealots will either be totally defeated or have real data to support their non-scientific views.
> 
> As to the figures - PCA, I did look into the PCA calculation, but being new to me I didn't comment. My guess would have been as you said, that the PCA being based on deviation, the data would naturally influence the results/presentation. As it is, the Italians results are fine (it seems when comparing Fig a with Fig b) with the vertical axis expanded, but they are shifted on the same scale horizontally with the new data set. The Pelops and Sicilians are very definitely affected by the new set of comparisons.


There are genetic differences within Greece, seemingly on a cline, there are certainly differences within Italy, perhaps more than for any other country in Europe, I would guess there might be some genetic differences between Ghegs and Tosks. It's a question of scale. Drill down, blow up "map", and you'll see gaps; pull back and the distance shrinks. On global maps, all of Europe is one blob merging into the Near East.

PCAs are a good tool for finding genetic similarities and differences, but not the only or the best tool, as they only show two dimensions. Plus, as with any of these analyses, everything depends on the reference populations being used. With a country like Greece which seems to have a north/south cline, the choice of reference population would affect the results. On that first plot, the Novembre one, as you can see, some Greeks drift toward Italy, while some Greeks plot with Albanians 

ADMIXTURE is another good tool for comparisons. Unfortunately, the paper I referenced on the Balkans didn't include either Albanians or Greeks*. Macedonians were included, however. You might want to take a look at it.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0105090

Even were such a study to be done, however, it would be very important to get representative samples from all areas of those two countries, and not just a sample from Thessaly for Greece, for example. Then, if someone wanted to drill down into the data, more detailed analyses could be done, as was the case for this paper. Certain Albanians and certain Greeks might be closer to each other than others. 

In terms of the similarities, as you say, especially in a time of fluid borders, people moved around. However, the overall similarities go back even further, into antiquity and beyond into the Bronze Age and the Neolithic. An optimal analysis would include some formal stats as well. 

Your guess is as good as mine as to if and when all of this will happen. As to the two differentiated groups in the Peloponnese, yes, their isolation means they might have preserved more of certain lineages than others. On the other hand, their isolation can lead to a lot of endogamy and drift such that they create their own cluster. It doesn't mean that they're not related to the other people of the Peloponnese. The same thing happens with some Tunisian groups in North Africa. To disentangle it would require more analysis.

Ed. * I meant to say *all* Greeks. I believe that was the Thessaly sample which was being used.

----------


## Angela

> The study also addressed Armenians and Mardaites (Maronites as proxy). Study quotes, below.
> 
> Also the study conclusions cited Italians in quantified terms with regard to the 'separate Pelop peoples' - my quotes - the Maniots and Tsakones. Study quote below.
> 
> There are also other quotes that note that the Pelops are distinct from other groups.
> 
> "Peloponneseans differ from the Armenians by PCA and ADMIXTURE analysis (Supplementary Figure 3). Collectively, these results are incompatible with the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponneseans and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers."
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I saw that. It's sad, in a way, that scientists have to do a genetic study to refute such nonsense. 

As to the bolded comment, one of my complaints about this study, aside from the fact that I wish they had done some d-stats, is that their nomenclature is very sloppy. It's not very clear precisely whom they mean by "Italians" in different parts of the study. I think it's pretty clear that they are differentiating between "Italians" and "Sicilians". 

However, which sub-groups or samples are included within their "Italian" cluster? In certain PCAs, for example, they have "Italians", TSI (which is a Tuscan sample), and Sicilians. I thought that by "Italians" they meant the Bergamo standard sample for North Italians, but now I'm not so sure. In other ones they just have Sicilians and "Italians". Are those two "Italian" groups composed of the same samples? 

The supplement, where these things are usually explained, isn't very clear either, imo. 
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g201718s1.html 

The following doesn't really make sense to me:

"2 Population was included in IBD analysis. Population sizes in parentheses are the number of samples included in the IBD analysis.
3 Population was included in IBD analysis but not in PCA analysis."

Does 2 really mean the population was included in IBD analysis *and* PCA, and 3 means population was included in IBD analysis but not in PCA? If that's the case, however, why does neither Tuscany sample get a designation? Tuscans were clearly included in some of the PCAs. "Italians", as in Bergamo, also get no such designation, while the Veneto does. Were there just some typos?

Anyway, at least it seems Puglia was included in the IBD analysis, but not the PCA. 

I have the same issue with the ADMIXTURE runs. Precisely which Italian samples are included?

If someone can help clarify, that would be great. Otherwise, perhaps someone should text them.

----------


## firetown

Many of the Bulgarian Black Sea town have greek names to this day. Irakli, the best beach, now being bought out by Russian companies was the most insider tip one for decades.

----------


## Angela

> Sorry but your map is wrong.


If you think it's inaccurate, you're of course free to post links to archaeological papers and accompanying maps which contradict it. In so far as I can tell, it's generally the same as what other scientists have posted. 

See:

----------


## Angela

> Something interesting in the Supplement. The Sicilians don't actually overlap most closely with the major Maniot cluster. The closest match on the PCA, anyway, is with "East Tay", except for two outliers.
> Peloponesse and Sicily PCA.PNG


This is all I know about the specific history of the Taygetos region.

"During the era of barbarian invasions, Taygetus served as a shelter for the native population. Many of the villages in its slopes date from this period. In Medieval times, the citadel and monastery of Mystras was built on the steep slopes, and became a center of Byzantine civilizations and served as the capital of the Despotate of the Morea."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygetus

Are Slavic tribes reported as settling near there as well? Does anyone know if they're still pretty endogamous? How close is this to Sparta? To which of the sub-groups of the Peloponnese do the people of the Sparta area belong?

----------


## Angela

From what I'm hearing, it seems that some people are not grasping an essential fact. You can't compare the plotting of Italians and/or Sicilians versus "Greeks" on a PCA where the "Greeks" are half Thessalonians and half Athenians (very odd to include such a big city, but whatever) to the plots and analyses in this study, which compare Italians and/or Sicilians to people of the *Peloponnese*. For goodness' sakes, yes, the genetic similarities between Sicilians and these people have many causes, stretching back into pre-history, but certainly one of them is the Greek migrations of the first millennium BC, and just look where so much of the migration came from...the Peloponnese. 

Again, no, those *Thessaly samples (and Athenian samples) would not have been affected by the population exchanges of the 1920s*, because in accordance with genetics studies protocols, unlike amateur work with 23andme results, all four grandparents would have had to be born in the same area, taking the genetic "signature" to earlier in time than that era.

I would also note that Peloponnesians *do not cluster with Tuscans in any PCA plots*. Even the people of Thessaly plot south of Tuscans, as the Haak plot and numerous others have shown, and as is borne about by ADMIXTURE results. 

People have got to try to understand how PCA plots are generated. If the furthest north Greek population included in a study is from the Peloponnese, as is the case with the study which is the subject of this thread, then obviously that's what will show up in the cline as being next to Tuscany. If Thessaly had been included, then Thessaly would be next to Tuscany, and the Peloponnese would be next after Thessaly. If central Greek samples were included, they would probably plot in between Thessaly and the Peloponnese. 

It really isn't helpful when people misinterpret, perhaps even deliberately misinterpret what is clearly apparent in multiple PCAs, including the ones in this paper. Like it or lump it and no matter how many unscientifically chosen 23andme based results are used, Peloponnesians and Sicilians plot together. If you drill down deeper they may plot closer to certain groups than others, but that doesn't change that essential fact, as can be seen in a PCA in this paper, which shows Sicilians overlapping half of the Peloponnesian cluster. 

Most importantly, you cannot rely solely on PCA analysis, as it only, in all these cases, represents *TWO* dimensions. That's a rookie, amateur mistake. You need ADMIXTURE, fst, d-stats, IBD.

People, you have to read these studies carefully, understand how the programs work, and remove your agenda hats!

Also, comparisons to northern Balkans populations would not have been helpful to answer one of the primary questions being addressed, i.e. the amount of "Slavic" genetic material in the people of this part of Greece, which is different than the number of people who might have moved into the area during the "Slavic" migrations. Again, do we need to explain that the people moving from further north in the Balkans into Greece were a mixed population, and not genetically "Slav"? The people of the northern Balkans share too much genetic material with Greeks for such an analysis to be useful for answering that question, going all the way back to the Neolithic and including Bronze Age and Iron Age migrations as well as simple movements across unstable political borders, as undoubtedly happened, for example, between Albania and Greece, or between Bulgaria and Greece. 

If the burning question for so many posters is which modern population is closest to, for example, the Greeks of classical Greece, or how similar those Classical Era Greeks are to Sicilians, then there is no answering that until we have a lot of ancient Greek dna from that period from multiple locations. All this speculation is useless and misleading.

----------


## DuPidh

> "Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. " These were also all people from rural villages.
> 
> That's the way it should be done.
> 
> ADMIXTURE results:
> The Peloponnese population is south of Tuscans, and Sicily and the Peloponnese overlap. It's what I have been proposing for years, but I think some anthrofora posters are going to need smelling salts. :)
> 
> It would have been nice to see a comparison to someplace like Campania. I wonder if there would be total overlap?
> 
> ...



https://makedonika.files.wordpress.c...nes_ethnic.jpg

----------


## Angela

The "Slavic" percentages of these different Peloponnesian groups is also very interesting. 

From the paper:
"The ADMIXTURE plot of Figure 4d and the data of Table 3 show that the amount of shared ancestry between these five Peloponnesian populations and the Slavic populations is very low. *The ancestry Deep Mani shares with Belarusians, Polish and Ukrainians ranges from 0.7 to 1.0**%. East and West Tayetos share from 4.9 to 8.6%**ancestry* with the three Slavic populations which is five to eight times higher than that of Deep Mani but *lower to the ancestry the other Peloponnesans share with the Slavs.* Slightly lower, compared to the other Peloponneseans, is the ancestry shared between West/East Tayetos and the Russians (8.6–10.9%). *The ancestry North and South Tsakonia shares with the Slavs ranges from 4 to 8**% and 0.2 to 0.9%**, respectively.* Compared to the very low ancestry shared with the Slavs, *South Tsakonia and Deep Mani share 14 and 25**% ancestry with the Italians*. *North Tsakonia,* *East and West Tayetos share from 41 to 57**% ancestry with the Italians."
*
The people of Deep Mani and South Tsakonia have virtually no "Slavic" ancestry. (.2 to 1%) The people of East and West Tayetos, to whom the Sicilians are most similar, other than two outliers who can be ignored because they're, well, outliers, share 4.9% to 8.6% with "Slavs", and the people of North Tsakonia share a similar percentage (4-8%). The people of the north Peloponnese would then have, seemingly, somewhere from 9-14%. 

I wish I knew precisely which Italians were included in this particular analysis, especially whether it includes Sicilians. 




> DuPidh:
> https://makedonika.files.wordpress.c...nes_ethnic.jpg


I don't know what conclusions I'm meant to draw, especially because I can't read the legend, but to be honest, since it's dated to 1830, and probably related to outdated notions of "race" I'm not really interested. I'm even less interested if it was created by this fantasist we've already discussed. Anyone can draw a map from their own fantasies.

----------


## DuPidh

> The "Slavic" percentages of these different Peloponnesian groups is also very interesting. 
> 
> From the paper:
> "The ADMIXTURE plot of Figure 4d and the data of Table 3 show that the amount of shared ancestry between these five Peloponnesian populations and the Slavic populations is very low. *The ancestry Deep Mani shares with Belarusians, Polish and Ukrainians ranges from 0.7 to 1.0**%. East and West Tayetos share from 4.9 to 8.6%**ancestry* with the three Slavic populations which is five to eight times higher than that of Deep Mani but *lower to the ancestry the other Peloponnesans share with the Slavs.* Slightly lower, compared to the other Peloponneseans, is the ancestry shared between West/East Tayetos and the Russians (8.6–10.9%). *The ancestry North and South Tsakonia shares with the Slavs ranges from 4 to 8**% and 0.2 to 0.9%**, respectively.* Compared to the very low ancestry shared with the Slavs, South Tsakonia and Deep Mani share 14 and 25% ancestry with the Italians. North Tsakonia, *East and West Tayetos share from 41 to 57**% ancestry with the Italians."
> *
> The people of Deep Mani and South Tsakonia have virtually no "Slavic" ancestry. (.2 to 1%) The people of East and West Tayetos, to whom the Sicilians are most similar, other than two outliers who can be ignored because they're, well, outliers, share 4.9% to 8.6% with "Slavs", and the people of North Tsakonia share a similar percentage (4-8%). The people of the north Peloponnese would then have, seemingly, somewhere from 9-14%. 
> 
> I wish I knew precisely which Italians were included in this analysis. 
> 
> ...


Its a German map of 1890. It shows different languages spoken in Peloponnese close to the time genetic study is suppose to be. The yellow lines show something about Slavic's, but since it is in German I also have to use translator. It has nothing to do with race. Racially all populations in Greece are similar. Caucasians.

----------


## last-resort

> Are Slavic tribes reported as settling near there as well? Does anyone know if they're still pretty endogamous? How close is this to Sparta? To which of the sub-groups of the Peloponnese do the people of the Sparta area belong?


This link gives a scaleable map for the region. Shows relationship to Sparta, Mani peninsula (nearly due south of Nedousa)
http://peloponnisossearch.com/en/vil...edousa-village

Sparta is East Tayetos (Taygetos)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia

Link for Tsakonia region is below. The Tsakonia link states that the Tsakones were late converts to Christianity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonia

This link is to a Swiss funded preservation project in West Tayetos. It gives a history mentioning Slavs. If the study did not show otherwise, one would think these villages were Slav. Select 'Areas' at the top row.
http://onsitepreservation.eu/en-gb/home.aspx

As to endogamous, it is a mountainous area which might limit travel. I have never heard of a feud or any other basis for one village shunning another for selection of a suitable bride

Edit: Link here describes the pagan pre-Lenten (Triodion) carnival in Nedousa (West Tayetos) 
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-pag...-56016967.html

----------


## last-resort

The Slav reference is roughly "Slavic tribe and Slav inhabited districts and villages in the oblique bis12ten century". My guess the last part is perhaps 'in roughly the 12th century' and together: Slavic tribe and Slav inhabited districts and villages in roughly the 12th century. I could be wrong about the date.

Also shows the Albanesische speaking areas (I mean the predominant speaking, not mixed) as being in the north of the Peloponnesus, mostly in/around Corinth. No Albanesische speaking areas of any variety are in or near the Maniot or Tsakones areas.
I used the map here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonia

----------


## trdbr1234

> This is total nonsense. 
> 
> This paper had to pass peer review, unlike the work done by basement dwelling troglodytes who've never taken a pop gen course in their lives, and whose sources are the opposite of transparent. Like any other research group, these authors had to take and maintain detailed biographical information on all their samples, including the birth dates and place of birth of all four grandparents.
> 
> See:
> "*Design of the study and populations studied*
> 
> The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880."
> 
> ...


There is an obvious level of bias in the study as well as your handling of what should and should not be said in this thread. The fact that Arvanite were left out of the study is direct evidence of how this study is manipulated. I imagine it would have showed that there is no difference in the Peloponnese population to the Arvanite ones. Anyways, continue to daze at your own theories with studies designed to do just that.

----------


## LABERIA

> There is an obvious level of bias in the study as well as your handling of what should and should not be said in this thread. The fact that Arvanite were left out of the study is direct evidence of how this study is manipulated. I imagine it would have showed that there is no difference in the Peloponnese population to the Arvanite ones. Anyways, continue to daze at your own theories with studies designed to do just that.


According to: D. Georgacas - W.A. McDonald, Place Names of Southwest Peloponnesus, Minneapolis 1967, in the region of Mani, 1450 toponyms are Albanian. There are this theories of prominent greek scholars like Sathas, S. G. Panayotopoulos and P. Kanelidis, Fourikis, etc, about Maniates, Tsakonian dialect, etc, but according to this study and what we read, everything is wrong, so.....

----------


## Megalophias

> The Slav reference is roughly "Slavic tribe and Slav inhabited districts and villages in the oblique bis12ten century"


It says "9th to 12th century".

----------


## LATGAL

> According to: D. Georgacas - W.A. McDonald, Place Names of Southwest Peloponnesus, Minneapolis 1967, in the region of Mani, 1450 toponyms are Albanian. There are this theories of prominent greek scholars like Sathas, S. G. Panayotopoulos and P. Kanelidis, Fourikis, etc, about Maniates, Tsakonian dialect, etc, but according to this study and what we read, everything is wrong, so.....


No, it isn't wrong, you just can't understand context and rely many times on outdated sources or sources that were fringy even in their own time. Sathas (the 19th century guy who wanted to downplay the Slavic presence and argue for very early Albanian migrations south, before they are even mentioned in medieval Arbanon in Central Albania) also wrote very interesting things about the connections some Albanian tribes had with Levantine populations like the Mardaites but those were just as nonsensical and I assume you won't accept _those,_ for example_._ You're also not addressing anything specific about the study itself but keep posting the same old stuff.

Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.

And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.




> Also, comparisons to northern Balkans populations would not have been helpful to answer one of the primary questions being addressed, i.e. the amount of "Slavic" genetic material in the people of this part of Greece, which is different than the number of people who might have moved into the area during the "Slavic" migrations. Again, do we need to explain that the people moving from further north in the Balkans into Greece were a mixed population, and not genetically "Slav"? The people of the northern Balkans share too much genetic material with Greeks for such an analysis to be useful for answering that question, going all the way back to the Neolithic and including Bronze Age and Iron Age migrations as well as simple movements across unstable political borders, as undoubtedly happened, for example, between Albania and Greece, or between Bulgaria and Greece. 
> 
> If the burning question for so many posters is which modern population is closest to, for example, the Greeks of classical Greece, or how similar those Classical Era Greeks are to Sicilians, then there is no answering that until we have a lot of ancient Greek dna from that period from multiple locations. All this speculation is useless and misleading.


Exactly, considering we don't have ancient/early medieval Greek or early medieval Slavic samples, you can only use limited approaches which are still interesting for anyone who approaches this as of historical and not nationalistic Balkan interest and if anything you get new data on the structure of the Peloponnese.

The Balkan Slavs (at least the Southeast ones) look like northern-shifted mainland Greeks more or less so a comparison with them would be much less meaningful for attempting to find some proto/very early Slavic input. Maybe the early Slavs who are responsible for much of the Slavic toponymy we see in Greece and Albania (some seems later, judging by sound changes) were already very Balkan in ancestry but in that case we can't differentiate much between those guys and later Bulgarians or Serbs contributing ancestry to Albanians and Greeks (as we know they did).




> I don't know what conclusions I'm meant to draw, especially because I can't read the legend, but to be honest, since it's dated to 1830, and probably related to outdated notions of "race" I'm not really interested. I'm even less interested if it was created by this fantasist we've already discussed. Anyone can draw a map from their own fantasies


Balkan ethnography has always been disputed (quite a bit has been written on this about the region of Macedonia for example) and you can sometimes come across completely unrealistic monstrosities but that particular map looks good about language in the 19th century. Of course, it's about language, not genetics - unfortunately we don't know what the early Arvanites looked exactly genetically _either_ and some Greek linguists have argued for Greek substrates in some Arvanite areas which might indicate some early local mixing even before their linguistic assimilation.

----------


## Hauteville

> This is all I know about the specific history of the Taygetos region.
> 
> "During the era of barbarian invasions, Taygetus served as a shelter for the native population. Many of the villages in its slopes date from this period. In Medieval times, the citadel and monastery of Mystras was built on the steep slopes, and became a center of Byzantine civilizations and served as the capital of the Despotate of the Morea."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygetus
> 
> Are Slavic tribes reported as settling near there as well? Does anyone know if they're still pretty endogamous? How close is this to Sparta? To which of the sub-groups of the Peloponnese do the people of the Sparta area belong?


The East Taygetus plot also a bit more southern than Sicilians in the intra-Peloponneso plot they made the same. I guess we Sicilians plot with the Peloponneso group made by Laconia, Messenia, Corinto, especially Laconia, who were used by Paschou et al. and there is strong overlap in the PCA of that study, and also with Messenia, Corinto ecc.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718f1.jpg

----------


## Hauteville

The map I've posted is not wrong, there were Greek colonies in modern Albania like these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia_(Illyria)

This map is more clear about the region

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M..._(English).svg

----------


## LABERIA

> The map I've posted is not wrong, there were Greek colonies in modern Albania like these
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonia_(Illyria)
> 
> This map is more clear about the region
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M..._(English).svg


And the author of the map is.....?

----------


## ngc598

> I don't know what conclusions I'm meant to draw, especially because I can't read the legend, but to be honest, since it's dated to 1830, and probably related to outdated notions of "race" I'm not really interested. I'm even less interested if it was created by this fantasist we've already discussed. Anyone can draw a map from their own fantasies.


The Peloponnese map is actually from this guy, anno 1890. That's a long time after the Biedermeier epoch. He was a geographer, geologist, paleontologist and economist. This map is a by-product of a two years journey to explore the geology of the Peloponnese. That said you can be assured that he had no interest in any political or ethnic issues, but he wasn't a linguist either, so - your decision, how much you give credit to this map!

I don't know if anybody is interested or if this brings any added value to the discussion, but I offer the translation of the legend anyway:

_Explanations:
<violet solid> new-greek language
<blue solid> Tsakonian dialect
<red solid> albanesian language (distribution as of today)
<red cross-hatched>Greeks and Albanese mixed
<red hatched>in the last generation [rem: actually 'human age' ~ 60-70 years] hellenized alban. territories
<yellow underlined> slavic tribes and districts & villages inhabited by Slavs in the 9th to 12th century
Cuvaes: <bold sans serife type> popular district names
Geronthron: <serife type font> Names of Dimes [rem: pl. of 'deimos', that is greek districts]
<blue dashed line> traditional borders of the Mani
<red dashed line> approximate border of the albanesian regions in the 15th century
<red roman numbers> Enclaves of the albanesian population

_

----------


## Angela

> The Peloponnese map is actually from this guy, anno 1890. That's a long time after the Biedermeier epoch. He was a geographer, geologist, paleontologist and economist. This map is a by-product of a two years journey to explore the geology of the Peloponnese. That said you can be assured that he had no interest in any political or ethnic issues, but he wasn't a linguist either, so - your decision, how much you give credit to this map!
> 
> I don't know if anybody is interested or if this brings any added value to the discussion, but I offer the translation of the legend anyway:
> 
> _Explanations:
> <violet solid> new-greek language
> <blue solid> Tsakonian dialect
> <red solid> albanesian language (distribution as of today)
> <red cross-hatched>Greeks and Albanese mixed
> ...


Thanks for the translation. Of course, as has already been mentioned, language doesn't equal ethnicity. 

@Hauteville,
Thanks for the maps. Yes, it shows more detail, but the general picture seems to be the consensus. 

@Latgal,
Thanks for the informed comment.

----------


## Angela

> There is an obvious level of bias in the study as well as your handling of what should and should not be said in this thread. The fact that Arvanite were left out of the study is direct evidence of how this study is manipulated. I imagine it would have showed that there is no difference in the Peloponnese population to the Arvanite ones. Anyways, continue to daze at your own theories with studies designed to do just that.


So you've already said.

How many times does it have to be stated that* the authors didn't address the issue of the genetic similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to the Albanians or the Arvanites*? Do you understand what that means? It means *they didn't study it*. That would be another paper. They also *didn't address how similar genetically these people are to the people who inhabited that land in antiquity.* That would also be another paper and would, in my opinion, require ancient Greek dna. 

They were trying to address the question of whether these people are Slavic and Turkish transplants. The answer seems to be no. If you can point to problems with the methodology which would call that conclusion into question, by all means share it. I'd be interested to hear it. The subjective musings of some German visitor almost two hundred years ago don't count as a scientific rebuttal.

My God, does it have to be about you even when it is obviously *not* about you? 

What doesn't belong in this thread is a rant about the treatment of the Albanian language in Greece, or a contest about who committed the most atrocities against whom, as *that is completely and totally off topic and only meant to provoke another Balkan flame war. 

*That applies to either or all sides. Is that clear now?

----------


## last-resort

> Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.
> 
> 
> Maybe the early Slavs who are responsible for much of the Slavic toponymy we see in Greece and Albania (some seems later, judging by sound changes) were already very Balkan in ancestry .....


 As to Arvanites' influence on the Tsakones or the Maniots, I've pointed out that according to the Alfred Philippson map, they were not near either communities.

Regarding the second quote, as the 'very Balkan' nature of place names, perhaps the official names had a popular or more older/ancient name all along. When 'Megali Anastasova' ('Slavic') was changed to 'Nedousa' [West Tayetos] in the 1920's, the acceptance and switch over was very swift, even for the 'ex-pats' in/immigrants to America. While their immigration papers had stated their home town as being Megali Anastasova, their grave stones as early as 1929 would state Nedousa. This is anecdotal, but it suggests to me that the Nedousa name had currency well before the official change.

----------


## Angela

> This link gives a scaleable map for the region. Shows relationship to Sparta, Mani peninsula (nearly due south of Nedousa)
> http://peloponnisossearch.com/en/vil...edousa-village
> 
> Sparta is East Tayetos (Taygetos)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia
> 
> Link for Tsakonia region is below. The Tsakonia link states that the Tsakones were late converts to Christianity.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonia
> 
> ...


Well, isn't that interesting. I wonder if Calabrians would be the same? Most of my husband's ancestral areas were colonized by the Achaeans of the northern Peloponnese, and by Locris right across the water (as well as Phocaea). He was always team Athens if you know what I mean, but hey, Sparta ain't bad. :) 

I guess that's for another paper.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

I personally believe that offtopic posts should be removed but that's the choice of the moderators.

Concerning the study, I haven't read it. It seems ok. But I would also agree with those who would say that the Sclavenes who invaded Greece in Middle Ages weren't Ukrainian-like genetically.
So, I would be interested to know what the results would have been if they used modern Southern or Western Slavs instead. [Personally I have atypical views about the genetic profile of the Proto-Slavs -I think they were more Western and _maybe_ more Southern- but it's logical to follow the most accepted views, I understand it)
Always when someone tries to make a quantification there are assumptions of some short involved. It's also difficult to seperate the Slavic admixture from other types of admixture from the North (which may include Illyrian, Thracian, Celtic etc admixture in antiquity and Vlach, Albanian, Gothic, Venetian, Avar & other Eastern European Turkic, Slavic and whatnot.)

If we had ancient DNA from Classical Athens and Sparta we could quantify easily the post-classical Northern (Western and Eastern) admixture as a whole.

----------


## trdbr1234

> So you've already said.
> 
> How many times does it have to be stated that* the authors didn't address the issue of the genetic similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to the Albanians or the Arvanites*? Do you understand what that means? It means *they didn't study it*. That would be another paper. They also *didn't address how similar genetically these people are to the people who inhabited that land in antiquity.* That would also be another paper and would, in my opinion, require ancient Greek dna. 
> 
> They were trying to address the question of whether these people are Slavic and Turkish transplants. The answer seems to be no. If you can point to problems with the methodology which would call that conclusion into question, by all means share it. I'd be interested to hear it. The subjective musings of some German visitor almost two hundred years ago don't count as a scientific rebuttal.
> 
> My God, does it have to be about you even when it is obviously *not* about you? 
> 
> What doesn't belong in this thread is a rant about the treatment of the Albanian language in Greece, or a contest about who committed the most atrocities against whom, as *that is completely and totally off topic and only meant to provoke another Balkan flame war. 
> ...


I don't really know know why you're on this tangent. Who is talking about atrocities or political disputes here? 

Peloponnese is historically a major Albanian speaking area. Remnants of whom still survive today as Arvanite. It takes a great deal of effort to completely omit the Arvanite element from any study of the Peloponnese. Understand? It would have been nice to see what difference if any these populations had to each other. If there were major differences then we would have given more weight to the "arrival" theory of the Arvanites. Given what we know of the Peloponnese today however, it is very likely that even the people sampled were Arvanite today and decided to omit this detail in the study. It would also have been nice to see how the areas where Slavs settled compared to other groups. 

How would samples of elders from secluded mountain tops prove or disprove any Turkish admixture in the Peloponnese population? This defies logic, doesn't it? 

So now were back at what the study aimed to achieve. 

As you like fantasizing, you may continue doing just that but at least accept that this study shows signs of manipulation and there is no need to criticize people that point this out.

----------


## Angela

> I don't really know know why you're on this tangent. Who is talking about atrocities or political disputes here? 
> 
> Peloponnese is historically a major Albanian-phone area. Remnants of whom still survive today as Arvanite. It takes a great deal of effort to completely omit the Arvanite element from any study of the Peloponnese. Understand? It would have been nice to see what difference if any these populations had to each other. If there were major differences then we would have given more weight to the "arrival" theory of the Arvanites. Given what we know of the Peloponnese today however, it is very likely that even the people sampled were Arvanite today and decided to omit this detail in the study. It would also have been nice to see how the areas where Slavs settled compared to other groups. 
> 
> How would samples of elders from secluded mountain tops prove or disprove any Turkish admixture in the Peloponnese population? This defies logic, doesn't it? 
> 
> So now were back at what the study aimed to achieve. 
> 
> As you like fantasizing, you may continue doing just that but at least accept that this study shows signs of manipulation and there is no need to criticize people that point this out.


Laberia is the one who was talking about political disputes such as the treatment of Albanian in Greece, and that's why he got an infraction. 

You're the one who's going to get one for resisting moderation.

You are not going to derail this thread about a specific scientific paper into a discussion of the similarities or lack thereof of Greeks and Albanians/Arvanites when the paper* isn't about that*! If you're so interested in the topic, suggest it to some labs and try to raise the money through Gofundme or something like that. Or, ask the authors if they have plans to do such a study in the future. 

*What kind of logic is it to assert that not addressing a topic of interest to you is BIAS?* Asserting such a thing about named scientists is libel, and you could be sued. We're not going to be dragged into lawsuits like that. Stop it.

You're also insulting a team member. I'm really spoilt for choice here.

----------


## Angela

> If we had ancient DNA from Classical Athens and Sparta we could quantify easily the post-classical Northern (Western and Eastern) admixture as a whole.


It would certainly clarify that particular issue indeed.

----------


## last-resort

> The older woman in this video is performing a more traditional version of the pizzica.
> 
> It's not the version of their great-grandparents, but it's still descended from it.


 I will not be offended if you delete this as not apt for this thread. As to lively stepping and a twirl, I came across this. It is a dance of (not dancers from) Rhodes. It is a circle dance but there is twirl at intervals, plus some lively steps. The song is apparently related to the island of Crete (*ironically)

https://youtu.be/d8RKqNKHqjI

It illustrates what one author says the song Misirlou (of Greek origin) should be danced to. Her complaint is that some have said the dance should be Cretan (*/thus the irony explained). A link to her comment and I'm done. There are links in this to the Misirlou origin and a few sound clips. (Song was featured in the US film, Pulp Fiction using a surfer rock version)

http://www.shira.net/culture/misirlou-folk-dance.htm

----------


## MarkoZ

> Who is the author?


The man who created the most prestigious journal in the field of 'Indo-European studies' in the West ;)

Certainly an authoritative source, therefore. I think the text I cited is from my personal favorite among his œuvre:



Mallory may have expurgated it from the JIES page, but perhaps they still have a few copies lying around.

----------


## LABERIA

> This LABERIA character is a notorious ***** and shitposter who adds the same panoply of quotes, half-baked and out of context, in every Greek-related topic opened on various forums throughout the internet (one can look at his posting careers on forums like "the apricity" to see how obsessed he is with Greeks) and it's sad to see that he frequenlty does it on topics created even on this forum that's supposed to be somewhat strictly moderated.
> 
> We already saw the Albanian inanity concering any Greek topic in the form of other posters but this guy takes the cake.
> 
> Are you going to destroy every Greek-related topic created on this forum too, *****?





> Your post is appreciated but this particular user does this in every forum he participates in (and he's participated in plenty under different names). He skirts with getting banned until the forum owners finally get tired of his bringing his Balkan Wars into every topic that concerns his various "enemies". Just letting you know since he's notorious and I can see he's done similar in this forum in the past as well.
> 
> Anyway, take care.


First of all let make clear one thing. You are member in this forum from few days. You have here three posts. The first two posts are a personal attack against me. I am member on two forums and i use this nickname. I don`t partecipate, using your words, _plenty under different names._ 
I don`think that it`s difficult to understand that you are member of other forums with other nicknames, it`s evident.
Seems that this two facts are not a problem for the mods.






> No, it isn't wrong, you just can't understand context and rely many times on *outdated* sources or sources that were fringy even in their own time.


Seems that all the people here like to use this word. Do you know the meaning?



> Sathas (the 19th century guy who wanted to downplay the Slavic presence and argue for very early Albanian migrations south, before they are even mentioned in medieval Arbanon in Central Albania) also wrote very interesting things about the connections some Albanian tribes had with Levantine populations like the Mardaites but those were just as nonsensical and I assume you won't accept _those,_ for example_._ You're also not addressing anything specific about the study itself but keep posting the same old stuff.
> 
> Arvanites in the early 19th century as described by German ethnographers like Hahn were <20% of the population of the new Greek kingdom (and we have recent work done on their medieval presence as well), yet here we're supposed to think they were the most important element even of very isolated groups like the Tsakones who preserved a very Doric-influenced variant of the Koine.
> 
> And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, considering we don't have ancient/early medieval Greek or early medieval Slavic samples, you can only use limited approaches which are still interesting for anyone who approaches this as of historical and not nationalistic Balkan interest and if anything you get new data on the structure of the Peloponnese.
> ...


I can explain you very well that the rest of your post is totally inaccurate, but i don`t want an another _Easter chocolate.
_But i think that there is something very helpful in your post:


> And of course Tosk Albanians (which the Arvanites are) seem very early Slavic-influenced judging by their R1a and I2 subclades as well so they too would bring in new "early Slavic"-like ancestry wherever they went.


This is pure gold. Now we know from where arrived this few slavs in Greece. Really, thank`s for your contribution here.You have to PM the author of the study and suggest to him this interesting conclusion.

----------


## Maleth

> See:
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html
> 
> George Stamatoyannopoulos et al:
> *Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks*
> 
> "*Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4**%**. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."*
> 
> Well, that's always what's made sense to me, so...


Interesting study, thanks for posting Angela

----------


## LABERIA

> The man who created the most prestigious journal in the field of 'Indo-European studies' in the West ;)
> 
> Certainly an authoritative source, therefore. I think the text I cited from my personal favorite of his œuvre:
> 
> 
> 
> Mallory may have expurgated it from the JIES page, but perhaps they still have a few copies lying around.


Sorry but under the new circumstances created, i can`t continue this discussion with you. The author of the study, explain very well that his obsession, like the rest of the greek scholars and the army of the greek members in countless of forum, is a gentelman, to whom I do not dare to mention the name, read the OP. Here nobody really know what this gentelman said. If you try to compare results of this genetic study, with the work of this scholar, in order to understand the truth, qui esplode un putiferio.

----------


## Angela

> First of all let make clear one thing. You are member in this forum from few days. You have here three posts. The first two posts are a personal attack against me. I am member on two forums and i use this nickname. I don`t partecipate, using your words, _plenty under different names._ 
> I don`think that it`s difficult to understand that you are member of other forums with other nicknames, it`s evident.
> Seems that this two facts are not a problem for the mods.
> 
> I can explain you very well that the rest of your post is totally inaccurate, but i don`t want an another _Easter chocolate.
> _But i think that there is sometnig very helpful in your post:This is pure gold. Now we know from where arrived this few slavs in Greece. Really, thank`s for your contribution here.You have to PM the author of the study and suggest to him this interesting conclusion.


Thank you for your concern about questionable practices on forums.

Half the people on this forum are using nicknames that are different from the ones they use on other forums. That's not something which we, or at least I would know, or could prove, nor is it specifically against the rules, probably for that very reason. A worse practice, often engaged in on this and other forums is claiming a false ethnicity in order to be able to hide one's "bias", as perhaps Nik has done. Again, very difficult to prove. An infraction can be given for posting a flag which doesn't correspond to the place from which a poster is accessing the site. That is provable and has resulted in infractions.

----------


## LABERIA

> Thank you for your concern about questionable practices on forums.
> 
> Half the people on this forum are using nicknames that are different from the ones they use on other forums. That's not something which we, or at least I would know, or could prove, nor is it specifically against the rules, probably for that very reason. A worse practice, often engaged in on this and other forums is claiming a false ethnicity in order to be able to hide one's "bias", as perhaps Nik has done. Again, very difficult to prove. An infraction can be given for posting a flag which doesn't correspond to the place from which a poster is accessing the site. That is provable and has resulted in infractions.


I think i have explained my position, nothing to add.
At my knowledge Nik is an Albanian who live in Swiss. I think he will be back and will clarify his position.
I think that you have to use your power against people who post in this thread personal attacks. Attacking a person is not the best way to convince the others that you are right.
I hope you takes into consideration that the infractions given to me are unjust.

----------


## Angela

Does anyone have at their fingertips any data about the frequency of the more "Slavic" ydna clades in the Peloponnese? That's something that might have been included in the study which would still have been within the parameters of the question raised, and could have strengthened, or weakened their argument.

Also, could someone please explain to those who still don't get it that the study *does not* address any possible similarity between the modern Peloponnesians and the ancient Greeks. In fact, it can't do so, because they apparently didn't have access to ancient Greek genomes.

----------


## Megalophias

King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

----------


## last-resort

> I wonder if Calabrians would be the same?


 By phenotype, I am pretty much 'not from around here' in most of the US. I frequented a pizza restaurant in the US South owned by a young person from Calabria. He treated me like kin. There can be benefits.

----------


## Boreas

> Indeed that is something I also observed,
> 
> cause Kapadokia was not heavily colonised, but Pontos was,
> and the study gives first connection with Kappadokia,
> but Pontos was another tribe Ionia and not Doric ,
> 
> I expect Pontos to be more connected with Athens Miletos and central Greece.
> 
> Pontos is a mix of Greek colonies of Ionians and Aryan-Iranian tribes,
> the unification happened after Alexander and the first king was a Persian satrape Μιθριδατης Mithridates


As you said study gives first connection with Kappadokian not Pontos Greeks. The reason can be Ionic factor. 

Today, 4 in the biggest 5 city which are in Turkish Blacksea region, are colony of Miletos (Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, Giresun)



About Pontic Greek

Don't forget Georgians and other Caucausians in that region. There are still great number of muslim Georgians live in that region and in old times shifting from Georgian to Greek should be more easily then Georgian to Turk.

----------


## Angela

> By phenotype, I am pretty much 'not from around here' in most of the US. I frequented a pizza restaurant in the US South owned by a young person from Calabria. He treated me like kin. There can be benefits.


Indeed, that's how I feel in ubiquitous Greek diners. :)

Seriously, I wouldn't say most of the U.S. The populous urban areas have a lot of people of Greek and southern Italian descent, like the northeast, New York, Pennsylvania, even Detroit, Chicago, parts of Florida. You'd fit right in. :)

I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's an area in Queens, New York (a borough of New York City) called Astoria, where a lot of people of Greek descent (and Italian) used to live , and some still do. I have quite a few friends with roots there. There's a certain area where it's one Greek taverna after another, interspersed with food stores etc. In the summer the tables are out on the sidewalk, there are lights, and you can here music playing. 

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-conten...7690_Fotor.jpg
http://www.newgreektv.com/images/201...riaellada2.jpg
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7982.jpg
Athens Square Park:
http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7990.jpg

Other areas are Italian, with great restaurants, and still others are Croatian. The Croatian ones (usually the people are from the areas that were under Italian control between the wars) start playing music, ballo liscio we call it, after about 11 PM. I used to be a regular, so when I would walk in they'd start playing "Firenze Sogna" or Chitarra Romana. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-8b3AmBnbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP90ck1YAM0

Oh well, enough fun, I've gone off topic too.

I'll move these tomorrow, along with the dance ones.

----------


## Angela

> King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.
> 
> This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.


Thank-you. That about seals the deal for me then.

----------


## DuPidh

> Indeed, that's how I feel in ubiquitous Greek diners. :)
> 
> Seriously, I wouldn't say most of the U.S. The populous urban areas have a lot of people of Greek and southern Italian descent, like the northeast, New York, Pennsylvania, even Detroit, Chicago, parts of Florida. You'd fit right in. :)
> 
> I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's an area in Queens, New York (a borough of New York City) called Astoria, where a lot of people of Greek descent (and Italian) used to live , and some still do. I have quite a few friends with roots there. There's a certain area where it's one Greek taverna after another, interspersed with food stores etc. In the summer the tables are out on the sidewalk, there are lights, and you can here music playing. 
> 
> https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-conten...7690_Fotor.jpg
> http://www.newgreektv.com/images/201...riaellada2.jpg
> http://www.queensbuzz.com/photos/File7982.jpg
> ...


Astoria no longer has the Italian, Greek flavor. Orientals are in, Arabs, and many, many yuppies who pay crazy rents.

----------


## Yetos

> As you said study gives first connection with Kappadokian not Pontos Greeks. The reason can be Ionic factor. 
> 
> Today, 4 in the biggest 5 city which are in Turkish Blacksea region, are colony of Miletos (Trabzon, Samsun, Sinop, Giresun)
> 
> 
> 
> About Pontic Greek
> 
> Don't forget Georgians and other Caucausians in that region. There are still great number of muslim Georgians live in that region and in old times shifting from Georgian to Greek should be more easily then Georgian to Turk.



Here the town I live about 30 km from my village.
is full of Fatsa Kotyora(Ordu) and Oinoe Unye people. and nearby mahala from Rizaion (Rize) and Sourmena and Ofis river 
well no matter I wanted or not, I learn their culture and history. 

the Georgians you say as also Russians and Lazoi as a shift many times worked vice versa,
lately after the fall of communism, came Pontic Greeks here from Sohum the ancient Διοσκουριας Byzantine Sevastopolis,
most of them were exiled from Turkey around 1870 at the Russian Turkish war,
and there are many who are not even Greeks, just 'baptised' as Greeks after the fall of Communism to find another future in another country,
as some here who know say 'there is city somewhere there that the townhall was burned by the end of USSR, and after that strangely appear 15 000 of Greek origin. but none of them spoke Pontic Greek'

Anyway Officially as pure Pontic is the area from Sinope to Kars and Rizaion nearby Laz, the ex-Trebizond empire and those who left at 1870's and 1922 
unoficcially is every one from Black sea.
By what I understand with them, and from what I hear, is a strange situation since in some areas main factor is religion, and in other nationality,

It happens to met some elder people from there, who speak their language but with more Turkish vocabulary and become muslims that time,
and also happened to met Greeks who speak perfect the idiom of my area but today are Turks the Vallaxades (Wallah-ades) this summer.

I am moving away from thread.

----------


## Boreas

> Here the town I live about 30 km from my village.
> is full of Fatsa Kotyora(Ordu) and Oinoe Unye people. and nearby mahala from Rizaion (Rize) and Sourmena and Ofis river 
> well no matter I wanted or not, I learn their culture and history. 
> 
> the Georgians you say as also Russians and Lazoi as a shift many times worked vice versa,
> lately after the fall of communism, came Pontic Greeks here from Sohum the ancient Διοσκουριας Byzantine Sevastopolis,
> most of them were exiled from Turkey around 1870 at the Russian Turkish war,
> and there are many who are not even Greeks, just 'baptised' as Greeks after the fall of Communism to find another future in another country,
> as some here who know say 'there is city somewhere there that the townhall was burned by the end of USSR, and after that strangely appear 15 000 of Greek origin. but none of them spoke Pontic Greek'
> ...


You have wisdom of Athena, I hope your path never cross with the Ares's path.  :Grin: 

Greek Macedonia is full with immigrat Pontic Greeks. Don't forget The Pontic Greeks who forced to move Central Asia by Russia. 

_"In a further wave, about 100,000 Pontic Greeks, including 37,000 in the Caucasus area alone, were deported to Central Asia in 1949 during Stalin's post-war deportations."

_I find that their situation is very dramatic.

----------


## Nik

@Angela 
Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection? 

Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country, therefore I chose Switzerland as a Swiss citizen and resident, and I got an infraction from posting from somewhere else rather than Switzerland as if we're not allowed to travel and can post in Eupedia only when home. 

On the other hand, you're trying to be neutral and cool but once in a while u lose it and direct ur anger towards the entire community of Albanians by generalizing. Perhaps u can fix that by simply addressing ur issues to the posters who go off topic. Dont get it wrong but u r developing minor symptoms of Albanophobia (joking) as I think another Albanian bringing up unrelated topics will definitely irritate u more than a Portuguese nationalist for instance. I can understand why that happens, but u as a moderator shouldnt express it at least. 

@A. Papadimitriou 
It's not the first time I notice that ur posts r clear, logical, and not based on hatred, in addition to thinking alike in regards to many topics. Would love to hear more from u. Cheers. 

@last-resort
Take a sit, mate. There's nothing wrong or inferior to be genetically related to Albanians. Just start to think that we're all human beings who share the same region on top of everything and possibly spoke the same language before being invaded and assimilated by different so-called Indo-European tribes. So basically this fight is over "who's master is better". 

And if it makes u feel better, Albanians dont wanna be genetically related to Greeks either but we see the difference in subrace mixing rather than aDNA or haplogroups.

----------


## Hauteville

> King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.
> 
> This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.


It depends about R1a if it is Slavic or not. This haplogroup is also diffused even in not slavic settled areas (West Europe) that I think more likely an introgression of ancient Indoeuropean movements. I'll wait for iron age aDNA from Greece.

----------


## LATGAL

> King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.
> 
> This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.


I'm not aware of the specific villages they chose but (since we're on that topic and all) some of the modern settlement in those two areas of the Argolid, the one closest to ancient Lerna (Myloi) as well as a few settlements near Franchthi were of at least partial Arvanite origin. Perhaps the authors made an attempt to choose people from _traditionally_ Greek-speaking villages though.

Their sample for Macedonia, Nea Nikomedeia, was also a partial refugee settlement as the name points towards (not sure which area of Thrace or Asia Minor, the name points to Izmit and Bithynia) but perhaps the authors were more aware of the demographics and chose a sample more representative of Greek-speaking (or otherwise) Macedonian natives (but probably plenty of better settlements from Pieria and Emathia to choose for that), though the J1 seems a bit elevated for a purely 'native' sample.

One plus of this new paper is that it manages to avoid both potential pitfalls by using a sample that excludes both Lausanne refugees and, in many areas, any traditionally non-Greek speaking element.

----------


## last-resort

> Astoria no longer has the Italian, Greek flavor. Orientals are in, Arabs, and many, many yuppies who pay crazy rents.


 DuPidh: you must have a powerful telescope to see that well from 'Cuba'!

----------


## last-resort

> @Angela 
> Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection? 
> 
> Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country,
> 
> @last-resort
> Take a sit, mate. There's nothing wrong or inferior to be genetically related to Albanians. Just start to think that we're all human beings who share the same region on top of everything and possibly spoke the same language before being invaded and assimilated by different so-called Indo-European tribes. So basically this fight is over "who's master is better". 
> 
> And if it makes u feel better, Albanians dont wanna be genetically related to Greeks either but we see the difference in subrace mixing rather than aDNA or haplogroups.


As to Country and ethnic advocacy, there is an easy way for you and other Albanians to publicly remove any doubt as to their bias, and that is to specify ETHNICITY. Country and Ethnicity are both available. If one is a strong (perhaps too strong) an advocate of one group, then listing Ethnicity is a way to dispel a suspicion that you are acting under a false flag. I suggest you update your profile today and add your Ethnicity. Also, you didn't declare your Albanian status on this thread.

As to 'subrace', I have no idea what that is. It is your and your fellow travelers' view that everything Greek is actually Albanian. This study has narrowed down the issue a great deal, and from my viewpoint, removed such thought from the Maniots and the Tsakones. Plus, similarity will always (within limits) be suspect due to the ancient Greek involvement with the Tosk areas of Albania.

I'll add in general, that Greek culture is so rich and diverse, that it is silly to think that any one group dominated the underlying make-up of these people. The struggle of Greeks has been finding reasons to come together. Their tendency is to find their own path and stick with it.

----------


## Angela

> DuPidh: you must have a powerful telescope to see that well from 'Cuba'!


Yes, that's quite amazing! He's right about it being "yuppified", however. My daughter is sharing an apartment there with some friends, so I'm there all the time, and it's changing at an incredible rate. The restaurants and some of the stores are still there, but most of the Italians and Greeks have indeed moved out to the suburbs, as I thought I made clear. It may wind up like "Little Italy" in Manhattan, or the German area in Yorktown, or "Ukraine town" on the lower East Side. That' what happens here; neighborhoods change in the course of a generation.

----------


## Angela

> @Angela 
> Do you still believe I was/am trying to hide my "bias" even though I clearly mentioned that I'm Albanian and get involved in topics related to Albania without considering the fact that I might get caught red handed supporting a country I claim to have no connection? 
> 
> Secondly, perhaps you did not notice until now but the requirement was for Country, therefore I chose Switzerland as a Swiss citizen and resident, and I got an infraction from posting from somewhere else rather than Switzerland as if we're not allowed to travel and can post in Eupedia only when home. 
> 
> On the other hand, you're trying to be neutral and cool but once in a while u lose it and direct ur anger towards the entire community of Albanians by generalizing. Perhaps u can fix that by simply addressing ur issues to the posters who go off topic. Dont get it wrong but u r developing minor symptoms of Albanophobia (joking) as I think another Albanian bringing up unrelated topics will definitely irritate u more than a Portuguese nationalist for instance. I can understand why that happens, but u as a moderator shouldnt express it at least. 
> 
> @A. Papadimitriou 
> It's not the first time I notice that ur posts r clear, logical, and not based on hatred, in addition to thinking alike in regards to many topics. Would love to hear more from u. Cheers. 
> ...


I had no idea you were Albanian before this discussion. I see a Swiss flag with no indication of "ethnic" group and I think you're ethnic Swiss. People should fill out the "nationality" box in the settings and should do it truthfully. I highly doubt, for example, that DuPidh is Mexican or whatever he was claiming to be. Perhaps you made it clear in "Balkan" threads, but to be honest I don't usually read those threads unless there's a complaint because of the kind of political conflicts that were, imo, about to take over a thread on genetics and make logical discussion of it impossible. 

I have no horse in this race, Nik, and I have no animosity toward Albanians, which I should think would be obvious from other threads on this Board. As for treating "Portuguese" people differently, I guess you never read my exchanges with the Drac brigade, although he was Spanish, not Portuguese. :) Obviously you don't know that I give short shrift to Italian racists too, like "Joey", who has been banned numerous times. I don't play those kind of ethnic, biased games. I try, here and in life, to treat people with respect if they treat me with respect, and to judge people by the content of their characters and by their deeds, nothing else. 

The issue for me is that this is a forum meant to host logical and rational and civil discussion of genetics, archaeology, and culture, not flame wars where groups disparage one another's ancestry or bring up political grudges. 

In that regard, if someone is going to dispute the findings of a scientific study, then it has to be refuted with _science,_ not the unscientific "opinions" of people from two hundred years ago, or ethnic myths. I will also admit that I have little to no patience with people who don't read the papers whose findings they dispute, or clearly can't comprehend what they read, or attempt to misinterpret the findings in order to advance some political or social or psychological agenda. 

Look, I don't know what future papers, especially papers based on ancient dna will show, but many people already have been, and in the future _will be_ discomfited by the findings of genetics. Old beliefs are going to be shattered. That's the way it is. People can't cover their eyes and ears and refuse to understand.

I couldn't agree more about the bolded comment.

----------


## Angela

Guys, everybody back to the paper now, please, and to the issues raised in the paper, not Greek-Albanian genetic similarity, which is off-topic.

----------


## Nik

> I had no idea you were Albanian before this discussion. I see a Swiss flag with no indication of "ethnic" group and I think you're ethnic Swiss. People should fill out the "nationality" box in the settings and should do it truthfully. I highly doubt, for example, that DuPidh is Mexican or whatever he was claiming to be. Perhaps you made it clear in "Balkan" threads, but to be honest I don't usually read those threads unless there's a complaint because of the kind of political conflicts that were, imo, about to take over a thread on genetics and make logical discussion of it impossible. 
> 
> Look, I don't know what future papers, especially papers based on ancient dna will show, but many people already have been, and in the future _will be_ discomfited by the findings of genetics. Old beliefs are going to be shattered. That's the way it is. People can't cover their eyes and ears and refuse to understand.
> 
> I couldn't agree more about the bolded comment.


I think I created my account in 2010 and never bothered with ethnicity. Perhaps it could have been to avoid my fellow neighbours disregarding my opinion coz of my ethnicity but truth is I don't even remember what was on my mind in 2010 nor do I care about putting my ethnicity. 

I hoped such papers would have discomfited (learnt a new word) many people by now but nothing happened to the majority as once u have smth on ur mind ull die accepting the least plausible explanation for the sake of pride and hatred. Unfortunately I experienced this first hand with a Montenegrin friend who coincidentally happened to be my distant cousin which he refuted, then later got tested in family tree and found most of the matches in North Albania from the very same region his last name originates. So the logical conclusion to him was that he's a pure Slav which happened to be exactly E-V13, ancestor came as a Serb in North Albania, converted to Catholicism, his entire family are pure Balkan Dinaroids, married Albanian Catholic women for generations, then returned to Montenegro and converted back to Orthodox and became a real Serb again. Basically he went with that 0.1% chance just to continue his dream. 

Long story short, don't keep ur hopes up for the majority. 

With regards to this paper, I think we both agree that it has many flaws and gaps and that "Slavic" admixture could mean anything. Can't believe that academics would so confidently claim as Slavic what could be a mix of everything from early Mycenaean, Dorian, Daco-Thracian, Scythian, Viking, etc., u name it. Maybe Northern Serbia has 8-10% Slavic admixture, not the historically overpopulated Peloponnese that forced people to create colonies everywhere in the Mediterranean.

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## kostop

To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.

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## Boreas

> To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.


Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And y-dna or mtdna difference between Morea Peninsula and other part of Greece?

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## Angela

> To be honest, we didn't really have to wait for this study to know that Slavic admixture in the Peloponnese is small. The relatively low frequency of YDNA HGs I2 and R1a compared to the Balkan region, has always been a good indicator.


Well, as I'm sure you know, it depends which clades we're talking about, but the general concept is correct. The correlation between the percentages of the proto-slav yDna lineages in the Peloponnese and now the autosomal percentages is striking. They reinforce the conclusion that there is at most from perhaps under 1% to a maximum of 14% "proto-Slavic" ancestry in the Peloponnese.

Whatever people may want to believe, based on such lineages the percentage in the more northern Balkan countries is going to be much higher than 10%, but not enough to make them Poles or Ukrainians. Within Greece, as has been pointed out, the levels in Thessaly are higher than in the Peloponnesus. I don't know about Central Greece. Maybe they'd be closer to the very northern part of the Peloponnesus?

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## ngc598

> Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?


Perhaps, but *dinaric* I2 wasn't carried much around to the early colonies (if at all), which might indicate, that it wasn't there until later times.

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## Aaron1981

I was referring to this sentence in the abstract, re-quoting your post, but not saying you "said" it: "_Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4__%__. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either."

14.4% "Slavic" ancestry is not insignificant as an upper range. Obviously if it's an outlier, it's not representative, I haven't had a chance to read the paper._

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## Nik

There's actually enough presence of I2 in Puglia but I'm not sure if its I2-Din so that we can link it to the Magna Graecia colonies or the earlier movement of the Messapi from Illyria/Epirus. Maybe someone with data can check that? 

An interesting fact or coincidence is the existence of the Daco-Thracian tribe of the Apuli, which could also be a possible explanation of the presence of I2a in Puglia/Apulia.

It's surprising that Puglia has higher numbers than Molise where medieval Croatian settlements are found, although their numbers could be too small to have any effect at all.

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## ngc598

> There's actually enough presence of I2 in Puglia but I'm not sure if its I2-Din so that we can link it to the Magna Graecia colonies or the earlier movement of the Messapi from Illyria/Epirus. Maybe someone with data can check that? 
> 
> An interesting fact or coincidence is the existence of the Daco-Thracian tribe of the Apuli, which could also be a possible explanation of the presence of I2a in Puglia/Apulia.
> 
> It's surprising that Puglia has higher numbers than Molise where medieval Croatian settlements are found, although their numbers could be too small to have any effect at all.


Boattini 2013 counted two out of 39 in Lecce, which makes about 5%. Other P37.2 he found in Italy were one (=4%) in Matera (Basilicata) and one (=2.8%) in Benevento (north. Campania). That's all. There is none out of 141 in his Sicilian sample, no Calabrian. Di Gaetano 2009 didn't find non-I1 or non-M26 ones in his samples around Greek settlements in Sicily as well (out of 114-132). So the south Italian presence is likely non-greek.

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## Angela

> Boattini 2013 counted two out of 39 in Lecce, which makes about 5%. Other P37.2 he found in Italy were one (=4%) in Matera (Basilicata) and one (=2.8%) in Benevento (north. Campania). That's all. There is none out of 141 in his Sicilian sample, no Calabrian. Di Gaetano 2009 didn't find non-I1 or non-M26 ones in his samples around Greek settlements in Sicily as well (out of 114-132). So the south Italian presence is likely non-greek.


Greek of what era? 

If anything, the lack of it in Puglia and other areas in southern Italy would tend to support the idea that it is a late arrival in Greece and therefore indeed proto-Slavic.

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## Angela

> I was referring to this sentence in the abstract, re-quoting your post, but not saying you "said" it: "_Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4__%__. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either."
> 
> 14.4% "Slavic" ancestry is not insignificant as an upper range. Obviously if it's an outlier, it's not representative, I haven't had a chance to read the paper._


So you said in your prior post.

Ed. Sorry, the majority of my response didn't post. 

I don't think that was a very felicitous choice of words by these authors. What their various charts and analyses show is levels of "shared" ancestry between modern Slavic populations and modern Peloponnesian populations, as they make clear in other parts of the paper, which is different than a measure of actual gene flow from these areas into the Peloponnesus during a specific point in time.

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## Hauteville

I belong to I2 M423 and my paternal side is from a former Greek colony of Sicily. We only need aDNA from end of Bronze Age or first Iron Age from Greece.

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## Nik

So basically its presence in Apulia is confirmed and considering that out of a population of 5 million in Sicily they tested only 141 it will be impossible to determine if its present at all or not. 

Then we should also consider that I2-Din its also quite low in Greece and its numbers were definitely increased by the Vlachs, Albanians, and South Slavs who brought this more Northern Paleolithic haplogroup later on. So even a presence of 1-2% in the former Sicilian colonies could be used as a possible Greek influence during the colonization era.

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## ngc598

> Greek of what era?


Di Gaetano talked about 'classical' Greeks.



> If anything, the lack of it in Puglia and other areas in southern Italy would tend to support the idea that it is a late arrival in Greece and therefore indeed proto-Slavic.


As I suggested. Neither Dorian, nor Attic-Ionian nor Mykenian colonies show clearly dinaric I2, only Aeolians may eventually have had them, at least if we trust the old data samples from Lesvos. But in the end - we need much more data for support of these assumptions.

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## kostop

> Wasn't I2 one of the oldest Y-dna in Greece?
>  
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> And y-dna or mtdna difference between Morea Peninsula and other part of Greece?


I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.

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## Angela

> I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.


It isn't based on ancient dna. In addition, there are different clades of I2. This map is based on* all* of I2. It depends on the clade. The ones associated with the "Slavs" are different than the ones associated with the early farmers. We have to keep the distinction in mind.

This is from our own forum:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

This is some analysis from anthrogenica:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ic-clade/page2

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## Hauteville

Di Gaetano is an outdated study (2008), Sarno et al is much more recent and with new conclusions.

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## Hauteville

> I don't know how accurate this map is and whether it is based on actual ancient DNA samples. Regardless, even if I2 is indeed the oldest hg found in Greece, it would predate the Slavic "invasion" which took place c.600 AD shortly after the great migrations.


The I2a on that map into west Europe must be the I M26, now almost only related to Sardinia.

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## Hauteville

I2a M423 was more present among Arbereshe colonies of Calabria and Sicily in the study of Tofanelli.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...thern-Italians

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## Angela

> I2a M423 was more present among Arbereshe colonies of Calabria and Sicily in the study of Tofanelli.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...thern-Italians


Thanks, Hauteville. 

We obviously need ancient dna and more and more representative modern dna which has been categorized at a deeper level, but I think that logically speaking, *if* some yDna I2 clades migrated into Greece in the Middle Ages with Slavic admixed peoples (genetically speaking), and there was no mass migration into southern Italy from Greece during or after that time, why would we expect those clades in southern Italy? 

The Arbereshe did arrive after that time, so it's not surprising to me that you find it in Arbereshe populations in southern Italy. From them it may have made its way into the larger community.

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## last-resort

> I think I created my account in 2010 and never bothered with ethnicity. Perhaps it could have been to avoid my fellow neighbours disregarding my opinion coz of my ethnicity but truth is I don't even remember what was on my mind in 2010 nor do I care about putting my ethnicity.


 And, based on that post which still does not your ethnicity, you will not show your ethnicity. That being so, be prepared to be challenged as being a false flag commenter. To be clear, imo ethnicity makes little difference if the posts are based on science and verifiable and generally accepted 'facts' - so that one is seeking the truth, rather than advocating a position that is fundamentally an opinion. But ethnicity is pertinent if rash and unsupported comments are posted. Not everyone is versed on the flame wars that seem to be fun for some advocates. And when opinions are masked as facts, pealing back the facade to reveal a unhelpful* motive saves a lot of time. */ unhelpful to finding the truth.

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## spartan owl

the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that

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## spartan owl

> *In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.*
> 
> *FEARFUL HISTORY*
> 
> *Demetrios Horologas*


so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian

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## spartan owl

> There was I think in 1923 a huge population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Greeks took about 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and resettled them in mainland, including Populousness. That was 40% of population of Greece of that time. So no genetic study of Greeks tells the truth about genetic composition of Greeks of Middle ages when Fallmerayer visited Greece. To say now that Peloponnese's was not touched by resettlement of populations from Anatolia is not the truth. When Fallmerayer visited Greece he landed by ship on port of Pireus close to present day Athens. The first thing he realized was that local population spoke no Greek. He was greeted by hordes of Arvanites who spoke no Greek. Also the Vlah population of of Greece was significant. They might have composed 10% of total Greek population. He famously said something like: I guess I have to visit cemeteries. There is where the real Greeks lay. Unless the Anatolian Greeks have the same genes like the one Peloponesses have I don't see how this study could be true? I come to believe the expression: Don't believe everything you read!


the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that

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## Nik

> And, based on that post which still does not your ethnicity, you will not show your ethnicity. That being so, be prepared to be challenged as being a false flag commenter. To be clear, imo ethnicity makes little difference if the posts are based on science and verifiable and generally accepted 'facts' - so that one is seeking the truth, rather than advocating a position that is fundamentally an opinion. But ethnicity is pertinent if rash and unsupported comments are posted. Not everyone is versed on the flame wars that seem to be fun for some advocates. And when opinions are masked as facts, pealing back the facade to reveal a unhelpful* motive saves a lot of time. */ unhelpful to finding the truth.


Huh? Whatever. I'll have to put u in my ignore list together with Yetos. With regards to the Arbereshe brining I M423 to Italy, I don't think the Arbereshe were numerous enough to be responsible for the 5% in Apulia, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm actually surprised that there is I2-Din in Arbereshe as a previous study suggested that I2-Din came very late to the Southern Balkans because of the Arbereshe lacking it. The same study concluded that there were high levels of "Italian I2" into Arbereshe, suggesting a local Italian ancestry of those families being assimilated into the community. So I'll have to refer to the studies again when I have time and check for I M423.

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## Nik

> so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian


You are right that many Albanians in Greece are indeed short, especially the Tosk. But I dont think many people will agree with you if you compare the Albanian and Greek communities in the USA for instance.

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## LABERIA

> the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
> so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
> the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
> the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
> finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that


I think, speaking about slavs, Maniates, refugees, there is something emblematic, right in the heart of greekdom:
Areopoli

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## LABERIA

> so you do belive that albanians have slavic arched eye brows? as you clearly were raised in greece you know that is very easy to distinguish a greek from an albanian and if you are not sure then the short one should be the albanian


I think you have to read carefully this greek scholar.

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## Angela

A reminder to posters: This is a thread dedicated to a particular paper. That paper does not address the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians. Any such discussion is off topic. I'll remove any further such off-topic posts.

The main topic addressed by the authors is whether there was a replacement of the locals by "Slavic" and "Middle Eastern" tribes, as proposed by some "historians" in the past. The genetics indicate that was not the case. In that regard yDna frequencies might add further insight.

Even if the topic were a comparison of Albanians and Greeks, a-scientific discussions of the shape of eyebrows are not probative in any way. For God's sake, people, this is the twenty-first century. 

I will remove any further off-topic posts.

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## Hauteville

> the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
> so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
> the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
> the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
> finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that


The Wikipedia's page is clear, there is also a map about settlements. Peloponneso was basically untouched by Asia Minor Greeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

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## LABERIA

> A reminder to posters: This is a thread dedicated to a particular paper. That paper does not address the genetic similarities between Greeks and Albanians. Any such discussion is off topic. I'll remove any further such off-topic posts.


Well, it's bit difficult. It's like in a thread dedicated to the genetic of England and the consequences of the various invasions during the early Middle Ages, you ask to ignore the Scottish. 



> The main topic addressed by the authors is whether there was a replacement of the locals by "Slavic" and "Middle Eastern" tribes, as proposed by some "historians" in the past. The genetics indicate that was not the case. In that regard yDna frequencies might add further insight.
> 
> Even if the topic were a comparison of Albanians and Greeks, a-scientific discussions of the shape of eyebrows are not probative in any way. For God's sake, people, this is the twenty-first century. 
> 
> I will remove any further off-topic posts.


Back to this "scientific" paper. I have an limited knowledge of genetics, but i can read and understand without problem the part of the paper dedicated to abstract, introduction and subjects and methods. 
Even an person with an average knowledge of history can understand that this part of this "study", at least is totally inaccurate and the authors are ignorants in history. So, from this moment, since the object of the study is to prove that some scholars identified with the name of this poor Fallmerayer are wrong, we can conclude that this "study" is a crap. We know that greeks are experts in this kind of "studies". They invest much more money and time in the falsification of history then in the investigation and study of historical events. I can make a long post to explain what is wrong with this paper, but i will bring at your attention two moments. 

From the abstract we learn that:



> In 1830 CE, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer presented his theory of disappearance of the Greek nation and its substitution by Slavs.9 *Fallmerayer proposed that* during the 6th century CE, large armies of Avars and Slavs overran the Balkans and eliminated the populations of the Hellas, who up to that period had successfully survived the attacks of barbarians and the religious suppression by the Byzantines. *The Peloponnesean Greeks, except for few remnants enclosed in coastal castles, were slaughtered or forced to leave and Peloponnese was inhabited by Slavic tribes. The Slavs kept their identity for few centuries but eventually they were Hellenized under the influence of the Orthodox Church and interactions with Hellenized Asia Minor populations who were settled in Peloponnese by the Byzantines.* Since the time Fallmerayer’s theory was published, a debate on the question of the ancestry of Peloponneseans has raged among historians (reviewed in Curta,10). Of note is that in spite of their diametrically different views, all historians have been using the same medieval written sources.
> 
> Controversies are rather common in historiography and result to endless debates among scholars. Controversies concerning the ancestry of populations can potentially be resolved by genetic analysis. In this paper, we use genome-wide data to study the genetic structure of the Peloponnesean populations and compare them with other populations of the world. We observe characteristic patterns of genetic differentiation within Peloponnese, we examine their possible causes and we focus on the question of the impact of Slavic migrations on the genetic structure of the Peloponnesean populations. *Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.*


We know that there are people who support the theory of Fallmerayer and other who are against him. Now it's the moment to know the opinion of the people who are against Fallmerayer. 
It's easy to find the opinion of this people, just open the page of Wikipedia and search for voice Greece :



> From the 4th century, the Empire's Balkan territories, including Greece, suffered from the dislocation of the Barbarian Invasions. The raids and devastation of the Goths and Huns in the 4th and 5th centuries and the Slavic invasion of Greece in the 7th century resulted in a dramatic collapse in imperial authority in the Greek peninsula.[57] Following the Slavic invasion, the imperial government retained formal control of only the islands and coastal areas, particularly the densely populated walled cities such as Athens, Corinth and Thessalonica, while some mountainous areas in the interior held out on their own and continued to recognize imperial authority.[57] Outside of these areas, a limited amount of Slavic settlement is generally thought to have occurred, although on a much smaller scale than previously thought.[58][59]
> The Byzantine recovery of lost provinces began toward the end of the 8th century and most of the Greek peninsula came under imperial control again, in stages, during the 9th century.[60][61] *This process was facilitated by a large influx of Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor to the Greek peninsula, while at the same time many Slavs were captured and re-settled in Asia Minor and those that remained were assimilated.*[58]


Well, it's evident that this people who have prepared this page of wiki are greeks. And their intention is to down play the role of the slavic invasion of Greece. They speak about a limited amount of Slavic settlements, but we know that for example Procopious described Greece as _scythian desert_. They speak about densely populated walled cities like Athens, but we know from archeological sources that Athens ceased to exist as city, etc. But this opponents of Fallmerayer accept this movement of populations from Greece in Asia Minor and the re-settlement of people from Italy and Asia Minor in Greece. 
As you can see, the problem of the authors here, is not with Fallmerayer, but with all the historians. If you search in internet, for sure you can find greek "historians" who support this stupidity, internet is full with every kind of things, but as you can see, even those historians who are friendly with greeks, don't support the conclusion of this "study".

continue.

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## Hauteville

Ethno-linguistic map of Peloponneso

image hosting

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## Angela

> LABERIA: Well, it's bit difficult. It's like in a thread dedicated to the genetic of England and the consequences of the various invasions during the early Middle Ages, you ask to ignore the Scottish.


That's not an apt analogy. This thread is dedicated to a particular paper and that paper makes no pretense of being a definitive study of the genetics of the people of the Peloponnesus. It is examining two particular aspects of it. It's more like the many papers on England examining the impact of the Anglo-Saxons in places like York, for instance, which* do not* examine the impact of Scottish incursions. Are we clear now?





> Back to this "scientific" paper. I have an limited knowledge of genetics, but i can read and understand without problem the part of the paper dedicated to abstract, introduction and subjects and methods. 
> Even an person with an average knowledge of history can understand that this part of this "study", at least is totally inaccurate and the authors are ignorants in history. So, from this moment, since the object of the study is to prove that some scholars identified with the name of this poor Fallmerayer are wrong, we can conclude that this "study" is a crap. We know that greeks are experts in this kind of "studies". They invest much more money and time in the falsification of history then in the investigation and study of historical events. I can make a long post to explain what is wrong with this paper, but i will bring at your attention two moments.


It's irrelevant that the paper contradicts the written history, so stop posting about the writings of some of these historians. Their work now goes into the trash bin. History is written by people, people who have all sorts of motives for distorting the facts, or who, with all the good intentions in the world, don't have the knowledge to understand what they have observed, and I'm saying this as some one who majored in history and has been studying it all her life. For goodness' sakes, the Bible says the world was created in seven days and the earth is only a few thousand years old, but geology tells us differently. Which do you believe? 

I'm tired of explaining this, and you're not going to clutter up this thread repeating the same quotes over and over again. You've made your "point" such as it is. We all understand what you think. Now cut it out; it's becoming spam.




> "We know that there are people who support the theory of Fallmerayer and other who are against him. Now it's the moment to know the opinion of the people who are against Fallmerayer. 
> It's easy to find the opinion of this people, just open the page of Wikipedia and search for voice Greece.
> 
> 
> Well, it's evident that this people who have prepared this page of wiki are greeks. And their intention is to down play the role of the slavic invasion of Greece. They speak about a limited amount of Slavic settlements, but we know that for example Procopious described Greece as _scythian desert_. They speak about densely populated walled cities like Athens, but we know from archeological sources that Athens ceased to exist as city, etc. But this opponents of Fallmerayer accept this movement of populations from Greece in Asia Minor and the re-settlement of people from Italy and Asia Minor in Greece. 
> As you can see, the problem of the authors here, is not with Fallmerayer, but with all the historians. If you search in internet, for sure you can find greek "historians" who support this stupidity, internet is full with every kind of things, but as you can see, even those historians who are friendly with greeks, don't support the conclusion of this "study".
> 
> continue.


I don't know if it's written by Greeks or not. You can check that by looking at the history. You can also check their sources. Follow the citations. Read those papers. If there has been some distortion as to the results of those papers going on then you can dispute the posting. 

Regardless, it's irrelevant. The genetics have spoken. If someone can show the genetics analysis is incorrect, fine. Otherwise, it is what it is. Of course, no one can force you to accept it. There are still people walking around who think the world was created by fiat a couple of thousand years ago too.

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## spartan owl

to angela 
as a spartan my self (all 4 grandparents) i can answer your questions
Sparta is included to the lakonia population.
The slavs settled to taygetos that is on of the 2 mountains surrounding sparta so it is close to sparta but taygetos is a stiff mountain so they lived in isolation.
Today none of them haves them memory of slavic ancestry thats why they can not be tested separately.
You can find slavic landmarks all over taygetos but not in the spartan valley.
As i see by lakonia here includes north taygetos sparta and the rest of lakonia (there is a slight difference between the three of them).
Maniotes are lakonians too but they are separated from the rest of lakonians for historical reasons and in order to facilitate the research.
Mani had mantained its indipendence during the ottoman period so it is consindered to be more racialy pure and includes deep mani, east taygetos and west taygetos.
The difference is that west taygetos is actually in messenia (it is called by the maniots outer mani), east taygetos have some slavic landmarks and deep mani is considered to be the most untouched by other populations.
I must also say that i lived in south Italy for 7 years and i must confirm that distinguish greeks from italians is very difficult.
another information that you might find interesting is that some greeks from italy fled to peloponnese during the medieval times after byzantium lost its italian lands.
Finaly to my albanian friends.
Arvanites in peloponnese lived in small villages in the mountains and they were very few thats why they were easily absorbed by the greek speakers.
Infact i challenge you to find even one peloponnesean that claims to be an arvaniti as the arvanites of central greece do.
Face it you do not have a great past and that can not be changed by insulting others.
But if you want to prove yourselves you can try to create a great future, it is all up to you.

scusa mi per aver litigato con gli albanesi pero possono diventare molto fastidiosi a volte.
se hai qualsiasi domanda riguardo sparta sarrei felice di risponderti

----------


## LABERIA

The second moment is this:



> Abstract
> Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million......


Well, to put it it simple, because our moderator want that people accept her point of view, i will not take you much time, this is a big lie. If you quote an author, even if you don't share the same point of view or you don't like him, you have to quote correctly. 
It's true that Fallmerayer said that ancient greeks were extinguished by slavs. But this event happened in the VII century. And from that moment of history until the XIX century are 1.200 years of history. And Fallmerayer, an expert in Medieval history of Greece, expressed his opinion about this long period. Other migrations and important events happened. The genetic material analyzed is not from VII century.
For these reasons, personally i think that this document is one of those things that greeks are very good to produce.

----------


## Angela

> The second moment is this:
> 
> Well, to put it it simple, because *our moderator want that people accept her point of view,* i will not take you much time, this is a big lie. If you quote an author, even if you don't share the same point of view or you don't like him, you have to quote correctly. 
> It's true that Fallmerayer said that ancient greeks were extinguished by slavs. But this event happened in the VII century. And from that moment of history until the XIX century are 1.200 years of history. And Fallmerayer, an expert in Medieval history of Greece, expressed his opinion about this long period. Other migrations and important events happened. The genetic material analyzed is not from VII century.
> For these reasons, personally i think that this document is one of those things that greeks are very good to produce.


That comment is a total fabrication of what is going on here. You are perfectly free to state that you disagree with the results of this paper. You've already done so, in fact, numerous times. All that is being asked of you is not to spam the same quotes over and over again. 

No, the genetic material analyzed is not from the seventh century, but to my knowledge there was no subsequent migration of Slavs into the Peloponnesus. For the tenth and last time, the paper is only looking at the "Slavic" and "Levantine" correspondences or lack of them. 

Stop spamming this thread over and over again with the same point, or there will be consequences.

----------


## kostop

> It's true that Fallmerayer said that ancient greeks were extinguished by slavs. But this event happened in the VII century. And from that moment of history until the XIX century are 1.200 years of history. And Fallmerayer, an expert in Medieval history of Greece, expressed his opinion about this long period. Other migrations and important events happened. The genetic material analyzed is not from VII century.


Ok, I understand that it is difficult to let go when one obviously has an axe to grind, but I will try one last time based on simple logic: Fallmerayer argued that Peloponnesean Greeks had been replaced by Slavs. Had this indeed happened, the study we discuss here would have produced completely different results. It didn't. Furthermore, at least some elements of slavic folklore and customs would have survived. None did.

----------


## LABERIA

> Ok, I understand that it is difficult to let go when one obviously has an axe to grind, but I will try one last time based on simple logic: Fallmerayer argued that Peloponnesean Greeks had been replaced by Slavs. Had this indeed happened, the study we discuss here would have produced completely different results. It didn't. Furthermore, at least some elements of slavic folklore and customs would have survived. None did.


Fallmerayer argued that ancient greeks were replaced by slavs, but he didn't said that greeks of XIX century, including the inhabitants of Peloponnesus were just hellenised slavs. He said another thing when he landed in Morea. In 1200 years of history many other major events happened. The authors of this study, intentionally ignore what exactly he said and they quote him selectively.

----------


## Boreas

> the 1923 greek population was 4.8 millions +1.5million refugees = 6.3million tottal
> so the anatolians were 23.8% not 40%
> the refugees prefere to live in big cities like athens and thessaloniki so almost none came to peloponnese. A simple wiki research will confirm that...
> the anatolian surnames are very distinct and are very rare in peloponesse
> finaly anthropological studies like Tito Körner's sudy on lakonia conclude mediterraneans alpines dinarics and nordics as the racial components of the lakonians but not the armenoids and he is crystal clear about that





> The Wikipedia's page is clear, there is also a map about settlements. Peloponneso was basically untouched by Asia Minor Greeks.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey



The worst part of Population Exchange is the number of Turks. Turks have been fleeting from Greece since its independence (1821). However, Exchange was mostly focusing recent immigrations. Probably it is true also for Greeks

When the first time Greece's decleration of independence, they didn't have many lands so obviously people who escaped from Ottomans and decided to fight for Greece, went to Morea too. Not much as Greek Macedonia, but also not untouched by Asia Minor. Also even in the research, not all West Asian Greeks are different from Peloponnesian
Did someone tell something about a simple wiki research?  :Grin: 

"In the early 20th century, Patras developed fast and became the first Greek city to introduce public streetlights and electrified tramways.[12] The war effort necessitated by the first World War hampered the city's development and also *created uncontrollable urban sprawl after the influx of displaced persons from Asia Minor after the 1922 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.*"

This is from Wiki about Greek city Patras.

----------


## Yetos

oh boy 

*some guys when the other is showing the moon, they just see the finger*

----------


## kostop

> Fallmerayer argued that ancient greeks were replaced by slavs, but he didn't said that greeks of XIX century, including the inhabitants of Peloponnesus were just hellenised slavs. He said another thing when he landed in Morea. In 1200 years of history many other major events happened. The authors of this study, intentionally ignore what exactly he said and they quote him selectively.


The authors focused on a specific assumption he made. That's how academic studies work. They test specific hypotheses, not vague general ideas.
If you want, you can have someone commission your own study, on whether the Greeks are Albanians, Chinese or Martians. But this paper is about something else.

----------


## Yetos

> The worst part of Population Exchange is the number of Turks. Turks have been fleeting from Greece since its independence (1821). However, Exchange was mostly focusing recent immigrations. Probably it is true also for Greeks
> 
> When the first time Greece's decleration of independence, they didn't have many lands so obviously people who escaped from Ottomans and decided to fight for Greece, went to Morea too. Not much as Greek Macedonia, but also not untouched by Asia Minor. Also even in the research, not all West Asian Greeks are different from Peloponnesian
> Did someone tell something about a simple wiki research? 
> 
> "In the early 20th century, Patras developed fast and became the first Greek city to introduce public streetlights and electrified tramways.[12] The war effort necessitated by the first World War hampered the city's development and also *created uncontrollable urban sprawl after the influx of displaced persons from Asia Minor after the 1922 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.*"
> 
> This is from Wiki about Greek city Patras.


there is discussion among 2 high level politicians ( I think one is Kapodistrias (Capo d' Istria was alternative name for the Greek community hiden company like the Philiki of Trieste -Tergest after 1720's)
and it is said that none Turk left in that time modern Greece, by the term Turk or προσκυνημενοι (those who kneel) Greeks mean muslims and that include not only Turks but other Muslim nationalities also, like Albanians,

the
the exchange of 1922 has 3 rules

Rule 1 the Greeks who arrive will occupy each Turkish property of those who left as exchanged population to Turkey, 
the Turk who stay will might keep max 100 000 m2 or 10 % of their property according the qitap (land register) with min the house or 8-10 000 m2 
That is about 80% of Pontic people who stayed at the villages or at the tsiflik of the Turks who left 1 year before, and about 30 % of minor Asian (Smyrna) at what was called Nees ktiseis or New Greece (Greek expansion after 1860, Makedonia Epirus some islands and a part of Thessaly the ones called Vakuf (Ottoman properties like camps or forests who stayed as common property before, etc etc) 

rule 2 Those who will go to old Greece (before 1860) will accept some British sauvereign or some other currency as help but not land to cultivate, since the land is given and is registered 
alternative the state kept the money and bought land (απαλοτριωσις) and share a small piece of land able enough to build a typical poor home of tha era. 
that is major part of minor Asians (Smyrna) about 50% and 10 % of Pontic, most them are those who raise the industrial effort of the big cities.of 30's till late 70's,
that was the major labour dynamic of the time, they mostly become working class for 2 generations. and is focused in certain areas, like Pireus Athens Volos Herakleion Mytiline Thessaloniki 
and mostly have names of the area they come, like Nea Smyrne (New Izmir) Kordellio (karsiyaka) Nea Ionia (Yunan= Ιων=Ιοnian) etc

Rule 3 
where the church has property big land area (do not remember the size), or areas that were in progress to dry for farming 50% will pass to refuggees (new land),
At peloponese there are 2 villages of minor Asians (Smyrna) at Heleia preferacture, but since they are after 1920's surely excluded from the search.
BUT Peloponese took the lowest almost zero of exchange population, since there was no Turkish property or exchangable population.

About Patras I do not know if there was previous devastation, from minor Asia, but if it was it should be merchants guild devastation, as also was at Smyrna,
but early 20th century is at least 40 after the limit of the search border 1860 if remember coorect, (I might be wrong)



Other interesting data that might be interest the Forum members,


Well Albanians have a point of view through Fallamyer, but they do not know that,

At 1821 Cretans came to fight, Karaiskakis died at Κρητων αναχωμα (Cretan defence) but none become Greek citizen, they remained Ottoman citizens,
at 1821 at Makedonia happened many revolts, most remarkable was Emm Pappas from Serres Georgakis |Olympios and |Diamantis Nikolaou ( from Pieria Makedonia)
all these and their men none become Greek citizen, all remained Ottoman citizens and went back,
Can you imagine how Makedonian Diamantis Nikolaou felt when he revolt, *he liberated 3 islands* he had his own battaglion gave battles there where no one dared to do, 
*But he returned as Ottoman citizen back to his lands?* 
can you imagine the rebels of Pappas who revolt almost conguer Thessaloniki (and they would do so, if ...) went to new Greece to see their leader die 
and then return back as Ottoman citizens, 
I will not expand to this why Fallmayer took wrong vision of Greece.
400 years of raya, what he expected to see? Greek man philosophizing? or naked man make gymnastics? maybe symposiums with Sokrates?
the 200 Pontic Greeks who followed Ypsilantis (majority went to Romania to revolt, Greek revolution started there) 
went back to Ottoman empire and seen their leader die at Vienna, and his sister married to Crete, still as Ottoman citizens,

*for the above reasons I am certain that the Greek from Asia admixture if the search is before 1860 is not at considerable level.

*

----------


## Nik

> Ok, I understand that it is difficult to let go when one obviously has an axe to grind, but I will try one last time based on simple logic: Fallmerayer argued that Peloponnesean Greeks had been replaced by Slavs. Had this indeed happened, the study we discuss here would have produced completely different results. It didn't. Furthermore, at least some elements of slavic folklore and customs would have survived. None did.


 I believe Fallmerayer's problem was the lack of knowledge on Dark Age Balkans and Slavs in general. There were indeed replacement in Peloponnese and everywhere else in the Balkans, which is normal for any region during war and instability. Historically the Balkans experienced North to South population movements so those replacement were definitely comprised of mostly non-Slavic people from the Balkans like Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, etc.

----------


## Boreas

> there is discussion among 2 high level politicians ( I think one is Kapodistrias (Capo d' Istria was alternative name for the Greek community hiden company like the Philiki of Trieste -Tergest after 1720's)
> and it is said that none Turk left in that time modern Greece, by the term Turk or προσκυνημενοι (those who kneel) Greeks mean muslims and that include not only Turks but other Muslim nationalities also, like Albanians,


None ? I don't think, I understood. You said there wasn't any Turk migrant before Population Exchange Agreement?

Adsız.jpg




> the
> the exchange of 1922 has 3 rules
> 
> Rule 1 the Greeks who arrive will occupy each Turkish property of those who left as exchanged population to Turkey, 
> the Turk who stay will might keep max 100 000 m2 or 10 % of their property according the qitap (land register) with min the house or 8-10 000 m2 
> That is about 80% of Pontic people who stayed at the villages or at the tsiflik of the Turks who left 1 year before, and about 30 % of minor Asian (Smyrna) at what was called Nees ktiseis or New Greece (Greek expansion after 1860, Makedonia Epirus some islands and a part of Thessaly the ones called Vakuf (Ottoman properties like camps or forests who stayed as common property before, etc etc) 
> 
> rule 2 Those who will go to old Greece (before 1860) will accept some British sauvereign or some other currency as help but not land to cultivate, since the land is given and is registered 
> alternative the state kept the money and bought land (απαλοτριωσις) and share a small piece of land able enough to build a typical poor home of tha era. 
> ...


You are talking like none Turk or Greek. Just from the book data but not reality. 

Do you think Turk Merchants from Thesseloniki, lived happily in Greeks ex vine yard. No they were not farmer. 

Do you think Turk tabocco farmers, could care Greeks ex-Olive trees. Answer is No. Trees died. 

People sold what they had after population exchange and looked a new job as other guys said in the cities. 

So searching just based on Turkish properties won't give you the fact. 

From Wiki page *Greek Refugees*

"The core of the refugee population settled in Attica and Macedonia. The official refugee population per region in 1928 was as follows (number of refugees and percent of the refugee population):[9]Macedonia: 638,253 52.2% (with 270,000 in Thessaloniki alone[10])Central Greece and Attica: 306,193 25.1%Thrace: 107,607 8.8%North Aegean Islands: 56,613 4.6%Thessaly: 34,659 2.8%Crete: 33,900 2.8%*Peloponnese: 28,362 2.3%*Epirus: 8,179 0.7%Cyclades: 4,782 0.4%Ionian Islands: 3,301 0.3%Total: 1,221,849 100%


Peloponnese
Nea Kios, Argolis (Cius)Patras*, Achaia

Obviously Asian Greek migrants weren't much as in Greek Macedonia, *I told it before*. But They lived or are living in Morea peninsula as well. If you check the percent, it is more than Central Attika in 1928. But today I am sure that it is more than 1%. and Nearly as much as Thessaly in 1928. 

Those lands can belongs non Turk-muslims or as I said big city migrantion as an example Patra, I guess.

About before 1860-1870 I don't know, I will search it too, but it doesn't seem logical for me. It should be at less a few percent.

----------


## ngc598

> I will not expand to this why Fallmayer took wrong vision of Greece.
> 400 years of raya, what he expected to see? Greek man philosophizing? or naked man make gymnastics? maybe symposiums with Sokrates?


That's *exactly* what he expected, when he came to Peloponnese. Fallmerayer was a child of the Romantic epoch - arcadian shepherds making love with nymphs, philosophers discussing at the agorá, Myrons carving hero statues etc.

His disappointment was obvious in the novel-like texts he wrote. He didn't understand their language, which has changed considerably. Add to this that he learned there, that centuries ago many people fled from the Slavic raids. This together with his Slavophobia he imagined the nightmare of an extinguished Greek population, replaced by hated Slavs and some Albanese. Checking facts or getting closer to the population of Morea for in depth information wasn't his thing. He just gathered material which supported his theory, leaving anything else neglected behind, which might correct his view.

In the end - other people visited Greece as well and I don't know of any other person who came to the same conclusions as him - his view found almost no supporters at home. After his publications he lost his teacher job and lived as private lecturer and independent feuilletonist for newspapers. Although he studied oriental languages, he never was anything like a scientist, travel reporter and political agitator - that's what you would call him today.

And all this sh... is totally offtopic, right?

----------


## LABERIA

> That's *exactly* what he expected, when he came to Peloponnese. Fallmerayer was a child of the Romantic epoch - arcadian shepherds making love with nymphs, philosophers discussing at the agorá, Myrons carving hero statues etc.
> 
> His disappointment was obvious in the novel-like texts he wrote. He didn't understand their language, which has changed considerably. Add to this that he learned there, that centuries ago many people fled from the Slavic raids. This together with his Slavophobia he imagined the nightmare of an extinguished Greek population, replaced by hated Slavs and some Albanese. Checking facts or getting closer to the population of Morea for in depth information wasn't his thing. He just gathered material which supported his theory, leaving anything else neglected behind, which might correct his view.
> 
> In the end - other people visited Greece as well and I don't know of any other person who came to the same conclusions as him - his view found almost no supporters at home. After his publications he lost his teacher job and lived as private lecturer and independent feuilletonist for newspapers. Although he studied oriental languages, he never was anything like a scientist, travel reporter and political agitator - that's what you would call him today.
> 
> And all this sh... is totally offtopic, right?


I'm sorry to disappoint you but it's totally the opposite. Fallmerayer was not a child of Romantic epoch. He contradicted in a scientific way the opinion of this "childrens", also called philhellenes. This is the reason of so much hate from the modern Greeks:



> Contributions[edit]
> Fallmerayer is considered one of the great 19th-century intellectuals in the German-speaking world.[40] He is remembered as "a co-founder of Byzantine studies, as discoverer of the divisive Greek theory, as a prophet of the world-historical opposition between Occident and Orient, and finally as a brilliant essayist."[41] Fallmerayer has been described as "one of the greatest German stylists,"[42] and the Fragmente aus dem Orient is a classic of German travel literature.[43]
> Fallmerayer was one of three scholars (together with Gottlieb Lukas Friedrich Tafel and Georg Martin Thomas) who laid the foundation for Byzantinistik (Byzantine studies) as a self-sufficient academic discipline in Germany. Their achievements were crowned in the following generation by the establishment of the first German Lehrstuhl for Byzantinstik at Munich, whose first occupant was Karl Krumbacher.[44]





> Fallmerayer's name eventually became "a symbol for hatred of the Greeks", and Nikos Dimou wrote (only partly in jest) that he had been raised to imagine Fallmerayer as a "blood-dripping Greek-eater" (αιμοσταγή ελληνοφάγο).[53] In the twentieth century the charge of "neo-Fallmerayerism" was occasionally used by Greek scholars in an attempt to discredit the work of certain Western European scholars, including Cyril Mango, whose work bore no actual relation to Fallmerayer's.[54] (The charge was also heard outside of Greece, for example, in the course of a debate between Kenneth Setton and Peter Charanis.[55]) The first modern Greek translation of Fallmerayer's work appeared in 1984.[56]

----------


## Hauteville

> None ? I don't think, I understood. You said there wasn't any Turk migrant before Population Exchange Agreement?
> 
> Adsız.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking like none Turk or Greek. Just from the book data but not reality. 
> 
> Do you think Turk Merchants from Thesseloniki, lived happily in Greeks ex vine yard. No they were not farmer. 
> ...


Peloponneso received indeed one of the minor percentage of Anatolian refugees.

----------


## Angela

How are the population exchanges which took place in the 20th century between Turkey and Greece relevant to the ancestry of people dating back to 1860-1880?

That's a rhetorical question. The answer is that they're not. 

How are Falmarayer's ideas relevant any longer when we can now see through genetics that there was no "replacement" of the people of the Peloponnesus by "Slavic" tribes or "Levantine" tribes? 

That's also a rhetorical question. The answer is that they're not.

It's also irrelevant whether Greeks hated his ideas or Albanians loved them. Science, in this case genetics, doesn't care which group espoused which ideas for which reason.

@Nik,
You're speaking very loosely of "replacement" in the Balkans. Migration movements don't equal replacement. If the migration movement was of very similar people it's going to be difficult to untangle.

----------


## Yetos

> None ? I don't think, I understood. You said there wasn't any Turk migrant before Population Exchange Agreement?
> 
> Adsız.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking like none Turk or Greek. Just from the book data but not reality. 
> 
> Do you think Turk Merchants from Thesseloniki, lived happily in Greeks ex vine yard. No they were not farmer. 
> ...


ok First lets understand something,

At Peloponese mainly and Rumeli after 1828 not a Muslim existed, since all killed or left 
and majority of Greeks who came to fight at 1821 went back to Ottoman empire or moved to West to other European countries,
all searches in Greece about DNA origin are before 1860, so the devastation and exchange of population is excluded,
besides where Asian Greeks settled is known and if not is obvious.
Among Greek and Turks there are 6 phases if we exclude the old before Suleiman the magnificent.
1 The Orlov's
2 1821 
3 1860-1870 Thessaly (not Thessaloniki)
4 1905-1914 
5 1920-1923
6 the 1950's progrom (Con/polis)

*about Thessaloniki or Patra after 1860 is out of Thread,*
but anyway Tobacco at Makedonia started after 1923 by the Pontic Greeks cultivating variety of Samsun plant,
before no Tobacco plantation existed, 
Turks were not mainly Farmers at least in my area, 
Turks mainly were public issue officers, military and police services, Engineers Doctors Advocats and Notorius, and Metalurgy production, not much as Farmers,
and generally Urban area works.
specially at Thessaloniki Urban area Jews controled everything, 48% of inside the city walls were Jews before 1860, and they controled the merchant of the city until 1860 when they moved to NY 5th Avenue,
Sold of big Property at Makedonia is not a considerable action since most were not recognised even back to 1908 among Turks and Greeks or other Turk and non Turk,
for example at my area there was a rich Known Turkish family owning huge land, which after the exchange kept the 1/10 as they stayed, and at the rest 5 villages created, about 6000 people,
at military camp and dwellings also another block of squares -mahala- founded etc etc

the rules I wrote above are the rules that Greek goverment set to the exchanged,
many families divided due to that, since either you enter a program and wait till 1932-3 to get land at the country, or you took the money as help and wait at Urban areas,
so if you came Thessaloniki your choices were 1)stay, 2 move to countryside of New Greece, 3)move to old Greece 
the sold properties problem was created at 1870 at Thessaly known as the revolt of Killeler (goleler)

----------


## kostop

> I'm sorry to disappoint you but it's totally the opposite. Fallmerayer was not a child of Romantic epoch. He contradicted in a scientific way the opinion of this "childrens", also called philhellenes. This is the reason of so much hate from the modern Greeks:


1. "He contradicted in a scientific way". You seem to lack a grasp of what the scientific method includes. 
2. "This is the reason of so much hate from the modern Greeks". Most modern Greeks haven't even heard his name. Those who have pay little attention as his theories have been discredited time and time again. In short, no one cares in Greece. I am sorry to say this, but every time someone digs up his name, it is usually someone from north of our border, two specific countries in particular.

As someone mentioned, Fallmerayer was a typical romanticist of his generation of German scholars, expecting the Greeks to look like the idealised figures of their statues, and desparate to "prove" some genetic relationship between them and the Germans. This "nordic ancient Greek" crap has been repeatedly shot down by physical anthropology, genetics, even traces of colour on statues. 
In his grudge against King Otto, he was so eager to support his theory that he forgot the fact that even in the most violent invasions in history, the local native element has never been totally wiped out to the extend that he claims, without the newcomers becoming the dominant culture, something that we all know that did not happen in Greece...

----------


## Angela

> ok First lets understand something,
> 
> At Peloponese mainly and Rumeli after 1828 not a Muslim existed, 
> and majority of Greeks who came to fight at 1821 went back to Ottoman empire or moved to West to other European countries,
> all searches in Greece about DNA origin are before 1860, so the devastation and exchange of population is excluded,
> besides were Asian Greeks settled is known and if not is obvious.
> 
> about Thessaloniki or Patra after 1860 is out of Thread,
> but anyway Tobacco at Makedonia started after 1923 by the Pontic Greeks variety of Samsun plant,
> ...




I just read one of your posts upthread and you insulted another member. I've warned you about this in the past. Don't do it again. No more warnings.

----------


## Yetos

> There always has to be an anti-semitic angle to everything for you, doesn't there?
> 
> I also just read one of your posts upthread and you insulted another member. I've warned you about this in the past. Don't do it again. No more warnings.


plz can you explain the anti-semitic of my post?
or not in public but in private if you want?

----------


## spartan owl

when capodistria said that none turk left he meant in south greece.
the war of greek indipendence it was a terrible war that lasted for 8 years and during that time both armies tried to do ethnic cleansing.
so most of the turks and albanian muslims left before having to deal with winning the rebels. 
the study confirms that too

----------


## LABERIA

> 1. "He contradicted in a scientific way". You seem to lack a grasp of what the scientific method includes.


Since according to you, i don't understand, it's you who have to explain what you intend with scientific way for a scholar of XIX century. 



> 2. "This is the reason of so much hate from the modern Greeks". Most modern Greeks haven't even heard his name. Those who have pay little attention as his theories have been discredited time and time again. In short, no one cares in Greece.


A famous greek, Seferis, the first to receive the Nobel Prize for Literature, exactly in his speech during the ceremony, dedicated a part of his speech exactly to the debate of the continuity of greeks.




> I am sorry to say this, but every time someone digs up his name, it is usually someone from north of our border, two specific countries in particular.


Fallmerayer is mentioned in this study 15 times. 
I do not support the pan-Slav theory, according to which all the inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula are simply Slavs. This is a chauvinist theory that serves the expansion of Russian imperialism. And obviously, i do not support the dreams of glory of the Slavs inhabitants of FYROM.
Here in the forum there is a greek member who for many years considered to be his favorite pass time the attack against the Albanians. At the beginning i tried to install a normal conversation with this individual, but it was impossible,so i have simply decided to ignore him. 
I did not intended to participate in this thread, because I consider and i also explained why this study, is a pseudo-science. But if you return to the first page and follow the chronology of the posts, you will see that this pure Macedonian blood, amid the euphoria created after reading this study, says that even this small amount of DNA Slavic among the modern inhabitants of the Peloponnese Peninsula, is result of the migration of Albanians, he is not the only one in this thread among the greek members to support that theory. At this point i said, hey, here i have to explain a couple of things. 




> As someone mentioned, Fallmerayer was a typical romanticist of his generation of German scholars, expecting the Greeks to look like the idealised figures of their statues, and desparate to "prove" some genetic relationship between them and the Germans. This "nordic ancient Greek" crap has been repeatedly shot down by physical anthropology, genetics, even traces of colour on statues. 
> In his grudge against King Otto, he was so eager to support his theory that he forgot the fact that even in the most violent invasions in history, the local native element has never been totally wiped out to the extend that he claims, without the newcomers becoming the dominant culture, something that we all know that did not happen in Greece...


When Fallmerayer visited Greece, King Otto was a teenager. 
I expect that one day i will read in the newspapers that Fallmerayer is condemned after his death by a greek court on charges of pedophilia.

----------


## Angela

> LABERIA: Since according to you, i don't understand, it's you who have to explain what you intend with scientific way for a scholar of XIX century.


How about Charles Darwin?

Definition of "scientific method":
a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.




> A famous greek, Seferis, the first to receive the Nobel Prize for Literature, exactly in his speech during the ceremony, dedicated a part of his speech exactly to the debate of the continuity of greeks.


Irrelevant to the topic





> Fallmerayer is mentioned in this study 15 times. 
> I do not support the pan-Slav theory, according to which all the inhabitants of the Balkan Peninsula are simply Slavs. This is a chauvinist theory that serves the expansion of Russian imperialism. And obviously, i do not support the dreams of glory of the Slavs inhabitants of FYROM.
> Here in the forum there is a greek member who for many years considered to be his favorite pass time the attack against the Albanians. At the beginning i tried to install a normal conversation with this individual, but it was impossible,so i have simply decided to ignore him. 
> I did not intended to participate in this thread, because I consider and i also explained why this study, is a pseudo-science. But if you return to the first page and follow the chronology of the posts, you will see that this pure Macedonian blood, amid the euphoria created after reading this study, says that even this small amount of DNA Slavic among the modern inhabitants of the Peloponnese Peninsula, is result of the migration of Albanians, he is not the only one in this thread among the greek members to support that theory. At this point i said, hey, here i have to explain a couple of things.


Before you can call something pseudo-science, you have to know what science is...

That's not to say that this study is necessarily the last one on the subject. If someone can point to flaws in the methodology etc., I'm all ears.




> When Fallmerayer visited Greece, King Otto was a teenager. 
> I expect that one day i will read in the newspapers that Fallmerayer is condemned after his death by a greek court on charges of pedophilia.


@Yetos,

OK, Yetos, the first part was an over-reaction on my part, and I'll remove it. For your information, though, 5th Avenue is not the exclusive domain of rich Jews. For one thing, that's where Trump lives, and a more ostentatious display of wealth you could never hope (or dread) to see.

Stop with the insults, however. I'm serious.

----------


## LABERIA

> How about Charles Darwin?
> 
> Definition of "scientific method":
> a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.


1)Starting to read all the medieval chronicles. Here you have some of this sources:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post484177
There are others, just start to search. 

2)Using the archeology, for example, to prove that these chronicles can be considered credible:
http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"(...) There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows (...)"







> Irrelevant to the topic


Excuse me, people here are discussing even about pizza. 







> Before you can call something pseudo-science, you have to know what science is...
> 
> That's not to say that this study is necessarily the last one on the subject. If someone can point to flaws in the methodology etc., I'm all ears.


Per l'ultima volta. There are among historians two different opinions. Fallmerayer and others who support that after the slavic invasion the ancient Greeks are to be considered a dead nation like many others in human history. 
There are other important scholars, the famous philhellenes, friends of the greeks, who are against this theory. 
This study, in few words, consider all the history as we know it, Fallmerayer and philhellenes, a BS. Do you understand this? This study is the Holy Gral of greek ultranationalism and chauvinism. 
I explained more that once that this authors of this study, tell us half truth. Because it's true that Fallmerayer declared that the ancient Greeks were wiped by the Slavs. But he didn't said that the inhabitants of Peloponnesus in XIX were just hellenised slavs. And the samples of this study are from the descendants of the inhabitants of Peloponnesus of XIX century, not from the people who lived in VII century. And from the moment that this authors intentionally decide to quote not correctly this scholar, they have lost the credibility. And the credibility in science is very important.

----------


## Angela

> 1)Starting to read all the medieval chronicles. Here you have some of this sources:
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post484177
> There are others, just start to search. 
> 
> 2)Using the archeology, for example, to prove that these chronicles can be considered credible:
> http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf
> 
> "(...) There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows (...)"
> 
> ...


Indeed, per l'ultima volta. 

What aren't you getting here? HISTORY IS NOT SCIENCE. We're discussing a scientific subject here: GENETICS.

Where genetics and historical narrative conflict, genetics wins. PERIOD. 

Now, I'm not, on the other hand, saying that this study is without flaws or that it's the end of the story. Once we get a hold of some ancient Greek genomes of the right eras we'll be able to compare them to modern samples. The best results will come from that. If we could get ancient genomes of the migrating "Slavic" tribes that would be even better, although they usually burned their dead apparently. 

I'm warning you for the last time to stop spamming the same material over and over again. You're on record as to what you believe and why. *Don't keep repeating it.*

----------


## LABERIA

> Indeed, per l'ultima volta. 
> 
> What aren't you getting here? HISTORY IS NOT SCIENCE. We're discussing a scientific subject here: GENETICS.
> 
> Where genetics and historical narrative conflict, genetics wins. PERIOD. 
> 
> Now, I'm not, on the other hand, saying that this study is without flaws or that it's the end of the story. Once we get a hold of some ancient Greek genomes of the right eras we'll be able to compare them to modern samples. The best results will come from that. If we could get ancient genomes of the migrating "Slavic" tribes that would be even better, although they usually burned their dead apparently. 
> 
> I'm warning you for the last time to stop spamming the same material over and over again. You're on record as to what you believe and why. *Don't keep repeating it.*


I am not repeating the same material. I have posted few historical evidences, because it seems that you are allergic to these things. In the end since history is not a science and genetics always win, it's good to make an comparison and to understand what is wrong. I am expressing my opinion. From yesterday i was out from this discussion, were other people, including you who quoted me. It's normal that not all the people here share the same opinion, because we are humans. In my opinion, this kinds of ultimatums from your side are not normal, because i am respecting the rules of the forum. Having an different opinion from the moderator of the forum, i think it's not against the rules. 
BTW, i really appreciate the fact that you have noticed some flaws in this "study".

----------


## ngc598

> I'm sorry to disappoint you but it's totally the opposite. Fallmerayer was not a child of Romantic epoch. He contradicted in a scientific way the opinion of this "childrens", also called philhellenes. This is the reason of so much hate from the modern Greeks:


I don't know which wacko wrote this on the english wikipedia page, but I can tell you that you are a lucky one, if you don't read Fallmerayers "scientific paper". I did, and believe me, it's hard to keep reading on and not burst into continued laughter:



> ...a two-fold layer of earth , out of debris and moldiness of two different human races, covers the graves of this old people.
> ...But the ground of Hellas sank piece by piece, clod by clod into the abyss of the slow but persistently eroding sea, and heaps of Hellens, ousted by the maces of the Scythes, descended during the deepest night of ghosts down into the chasm of destruction.
> ...Global incidents finally have given voice to the dark feelings of the Greek Slavs, and brought them the recognition of salvation in their desperation. Already for centuries ,repulsed by orient and occident, they have already given up all hope for salvation by the help o their Christian brothers from the west, they turned their eyes yearningly toward Midnight, to their old homeland, which has become alien to them, toward the great sovereign of Turan.
> ...The dawn of revenge, freedom and glory finally flashed up in the arc of the sky for these unfortunate, and the dividing wall, mounted up at the summits of Balkan by the children of Mahomet sunk to the ground.


...and these were random quotes just from the first three pages. If you want to try to convince me that this is a serious scientific work, then come on, try harder!

----------


## Angela

> I don't know which wacko wrote this on the english wikipedia page, but I can tell you that you are a lucky one, if you don't read Fallmerayers "scientific paper". I did, and believe me, it's hard to keep reading on and not burst into continued laughter:
> 
> ...and these were random quotes just from the first three pages. If you want to try to convince me that this is a serious scientific work, then come on, try harder!


Good grief!!! I had forgotten quite how bad it is. :)

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Very interesting paper and thanks for posting. I remember a paper by the author(s) from a few years ago, showing similar graphs and models, but this one deals specifically with the Peloponnese. 

It's not surprising of course that there is regional diversity. Greece is a mountainous country and very old, and not all of Greece was affected the same by its population history.

Just looking at Greeks, without genetic studies, it's easy to see that many of them do not look like Slavs. I most certainly believe Slavs settled in Greece. I believe that Y-DNA haplogroup I-Dinaric in Greeks is associated with Slavs, and that's fairly present in Greeks, but some or a lot of that could have been brought by others after the Slavs as well. I just can't envision Slavs displacing an entire region like the Peloponnese. The Byzantines reestablished rule in the Peloponnese after the Slavs settled there in places. Who knows what happened with populations at that time? 

As far as Turks, there was ethnic cleansing in the Peloponnese as during the independence war. I doubt many Greeks and Peloponnese populations have much Turkish admixture from central Asia, though they may have at least a little here and there. 

I look forward to future studies of the region, especially gender-specific studies like Y-DNA and mtDNA. There should be reasonable agreement between different types of genetic studies.

----------


## kostop

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time".

Yeah, and a few centuries earlier there was even greater damage following the Persian raid of Athens. Even the old Acropolis was destroyed. The Parthenon that stands today was built shortly after that and Dorian style was chosen instead of Ionian (which would have been expected in Athens) in order to appear more robust and signal the strength of the recovering Greek city. 
Your point?
You keep cherry-picking the same fragmented and irrelevant "historical sources", while ignoring the subject matter of this paper: GENETICS.

Obviously your signature gives your game away, but still, this is rather sad...

----------


## Boreas

> At Peloponese mainly and Rumeli after 1828 not a Muslim existed, since all killed or left


Mainly Yes, but I am still wondering is it normal "all killed or left" or "Pontic Greek version of all killed or left" in Turkish Blacksea coast. All supposed to have been gone to Greece. But still some left in Turkey under the name Islam and Turk

Also my point was that there was Greek Refugees in Peloponnese. I didn't said majority as in Greek Macedonia(I told many many times in different way.) 

and I prooved it  :Good Job: 




> and majority of Greeks who came to fight at 1821 went back to Ottoman empire or moved to West to other European countries,


About that, word: majority, I didn't say it too. I told that there should be some Asia Minor Greeks before Population Exchange in 1923 

I know it because some part of my family came to Turkey from Lesvos before Population Exchange, Probably as soon as Greeks took the island in 1912 ?

Maybe You can search and inform us

"According to an international commission sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment in 1914, when the Balkan War fighting ceased, Greece had a population of 2,6 million, and 157 000 refugees. "
http://balkanologie.revues.org/720

Who is this refugees in 1914 ? My guess is Balkan War Asia Minor Greek refugees

And if we go back just right after Greek independence and killing Turk (or what ever). Turks did similar thing in Chios just near the Smynra / İzmir or Anatolian Greeks

Example: Greek Island, Psara

After the Independece, 1820's

A part of the population managed to flee the island, but those who did not were either sold into slavery or killed. As a result of the invasion, thousands of Greeks have met a tragic fate. The island was deserted and surviving islanders were scattered through what is now *Southern Greece*. 





> *about Thessaloniki or Patra after 1860 is out of Thread,
> *


I totally agree, but I can't resist when I see lies. Now I don't know how can I trust anyone in the forum. I can easily proof that he/she is lying with 10min web search. I guess the flag in my avatar, makes the people think that I am fool enough to believe what said to me. 



> but anyway Tobacco at Makedonia started after 1923 by the Pontic Greeks cultivating variety of Samsun plant,
> before no Tobacco plantation existed,


How much sure are you? 

"Oriental tobacco or Turkish tobacco is a highly aromatic, small-leafed variety of tobacco which is sun-cured. Historically, it was cultivated primarily in Thrace and Macedonia" 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_tobacco




It says how many Turkish refugees Farmer (225.000), how many of tobacco farmer (95.000) and how many of Olive farmer (75,000). Also it gives information about where they came from and settled. 

*Tobacco History of Greece, much older then you think.* :Good Job:

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> So you've already said.
> 
> How many times does it have to be stated that* the authors didn't address the issue of the genetic similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to the Albanians or the Arvanites*? Do you understand what that means? It means *they didn't study it*. That would be another paper. They also *didn't address how similar genetically these people are to the people who inhabited that land in antiquity.* That would also be another paper and would, in my opinion, require ancient Greek dna. 
> 
> They were trying to address the question of whether these people are Slavic and Turkish transplants. The answer seems to be no. If you can point to problems with the methodology which would call that conclusion into question, by all means share it. I'd be interested to hear it. The subjective musings of some German visitor almost two hundred years ago don't count as a scientific rebuttal.
> 
> My God, does it have to be about you even when it is obviously *not* about you? 
> 
> What doesn't belong in this thread is a rant about the treatment of the Albanian language in Greece, or a contest about who committed the most atrocities against whom, as *that is completely and totally off topic and only meant to provoke another Balkan flame war. 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head. The scope of this study was to determine whether modern Peloponnesian Greeks are substantially descended from Slavs and Near Easterners. Per this study, they are not. That's not good news for those who want modern Peloponnesians to be descended from Hellenized medieval Slavs. 

If I may digress briefly, as far as Arvanites in the Peloponnese, the old language map from 1890 shows large Greek-speaking areas and some Arvanite/Albanian-speaking areas. If the Peloponnese was largely occupied by Arvanites, how was it that so many became Greek-speakers?

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## oreo_cookie

Also worth noting, there is overlap between the Peloponnese and Crete, too. 

Four important things: 

1) This study has one underlying implication: proximity to Sicily means closer to 'pure' Greek, with unchanged DNA. Notice the wording... Peloponnesians have limited Slavic DNA, thus are close to Sicilians. The Peloponnesians who happen to be drifting further away from Sicilians on the full Europe PCA where Sicilians are green squares, must therefore be those with more Slavic ancestry, and surely other parts of the mainland have more Slavic ancestry than Peloponnesians considering on other PCA plots (Paschou et al, which puts Sicilians near both Laconia and Crete, and Lazaridis et al), other mainland Greeks and Sicilians rarely plot as one. In other words, the more Sicilian-like a Greek is, the less affected by Slavic, Albanian, or other foreign admixture. Here, we see some of the far southern Peloponnesians, near Laconia, being close to Sicilians which is consistent with what we already knew.

You are very unlikely to see people from Epirus, Thessaly, or Macedonia being genetically that close to Sicily or to Crete, and there is a reason for this. Laconia, Sicily, and Crete are all likely closer to the classical Greeks than people in northern Greece today are. 

2) However, the historical fact everyone is neglecting is, the similarity is more likely due to that after Slavs were expelled from the Peloponnese, large numbers of Greek-speaking Sicilians and Calabrese were moved by the Byzantine Empire over to the Peloponnese to repopulate the abandoned cities and towns. Also, Cretans, who are also similar to Sicilians and to modern Laconians too, also contributed to the repopulation. The surnames between Crete and Laconia (which is the region with the highest IBD sharing to Italy if you look at this study) are also similar. Therefore, Peloponnesians may be as Sicilian as the reverse, plus Cretan ancestry would contribute to that effect, because Sicilians overlap with both Laconia and Crete today. Everyone is emphasizing Sicilians being Greek... maybe Peloponnesians are part Sicilian, and history suggests they might be. 

3) The pre-Greek people of Sicily were likely quite close to the original people of the Aegean to begin with. Most of the people who lived in Sicily likely passed through the Aegean before landing there, with the exception of the Siculi who were Italics from the mainland. Even if no Greek ever set foot in Sicily, they'd still be close to one another. Their common roots should go back to the Neolithic.

4) How do we know the Slavs in Greece were purely Northeast European, and hadn't mixed with people in the Balkans as they moved south? If they did, then the study might underestimate replacement. Why did they compare to Poles and Russians, and not to Bulgarians and Serbs? 

It is really too bad they did not measure IBD sharing with Crete. I suspect it'd be quite high between Peloponnese, especially Laconia, and Crete.

This was one of the plots from Paschou et al, and you can see that the Sicilians, Laconians, and Cretans are all close, much closer to one another than to anyone else. See, where by contrast, Greek Macedonians and non-Laconian Peloponnesians plot. I suspect the mixture between them was three way. I don't find up to 14.4% Slavic insignificant.. it is the reason some of the Peloponnesians do not in fact overlap identically with Sicilians, though I admit I expected the figure to get much higher than that. I guess we have to wait to see Greek Macedonia or Thessaly for that. 

What this all suggests to me is moving south in Greece there hits a point where the population stops being "Balkan" like and becomes like Sicilians, Laconians, and Cretans, and this is likely the southern Peloponnese. Sicilians and Laconians appear very diverse... on the chart below, they range from being like Tuscans to being like Dodecanese.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> The Byzantines reestablished rule in the Peloponnese after the Slavs settled there in places. Who knows what happened with populations at that time?


See my post above. They moved many Greek-speaking Sicilians, Calabrese, and Cretans to the Peloponnese to restore and solidify its Greek character. I attribute much of the similarity in the populations today to this.

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## Angela

> See my post above. They moved many Greek-speaking Sicilians, Calabrese, and Cretans to the Peloponnese to restore and solidify its Greek character. I attribute much of the similarity in the populations today to this.


Please provide citations to studies detailing when precisely this occurred, how many people were involved, the number of people living in the Peloponnesus at the time, the locations where they were settled, and how many were Greek speaking "Sicilians" versus Greeks living in Sicily.

Even should that evidence be unambiguous, unless the majority of the island went to the Peloponnesus, and given that the Neolithic arrived in Sicily at least partly from Greece, given the extensive contacts during the Bronze Age, and given the migrations during the first millennium BC which created Magna Graecia, etc., to attribute "much of the similarity" to this minor event is sadly lacking in logic. 

I'm afraid you'll have to do better than this kind of nonsense, Sikeliot.

----------


## ngc598

> 4) How do we know the Slavs in Greece were purely Northeast European, and hadn't mixed with people in the Balkans as they moved south? If they did, then the study might underestimate replacement. *Why did they compare to Poles and Russians, and not to Bulgarians and Serbs?*


Right, they missed the only really important thing to prove their point - the data of the NEIGHBOURING Slavs. In the end we have a good clue from where Peloponnesians are not, that is they are not from Gdansk or Omsk, no Klingons and no Ferengi. If somebody wanted to be sure about exactly that, Stamatoyannopoulos and his friends have done a good job.




> This was one of the plots from Paschou et al, ...


I guess you are referencing to this one. The best thing you can do with Paschou's soup, is pour it down the kitchen sink! Genetically Crete is even more of a rag rug than Greece itself, and so far I haven't found even one study which took a decent sample from there. Unless there will be done a research like Voskarides on Cyprus you can forget Crete data alltogether. The other samplings from Paschou's misdead speak for themselves. Especially South East Laconia with five samples lets me think, those guys consider everybody else as complete idiots.
Crete, 90 samples
Cappadocia, 10
Dodecanese, 10
East Rumelia, 12
Macedonia, 16
Peloponnese, 19
Serbia, 20
Sicily, 20
South East Laconia, 5
How many samples do you think are necessary to be good enough to compare different folks with each other? Five or ten? I know, population genetics isn't exactly science, but game of dice?

----------


## Angela

> Also worth noting, there is overlap between the Peloponnese and Crete, too. 
> 
> Four important things: 
> 
> 1) This study has one underlying implication: proximity to Sicily means closer to 'pure' Greek, with unchanged DNA. Notice the wording... Peloponnesians have limited Slavic DNA, thus are close to Sicilians. The Peloponnesians who happen to be drifting further away from Sicilians on the full Europe PCA where Sicilians are green squares, must therefore be those with more Slavic ancestry, and surely other parts of the mainland have more Slavic ancestry than Peloponnesians considering on other PCA plots (Paschou et al, which puts Sicilians near both Laconia and Crete, and Lazaridis et al), other mainland Greeks and Sicilians rarely plot as one. In other words, the more Sicilian-like a Greek is, the less affected by Slavic, Albanian, or other foreign admixture. Here, we see some of the far southern Peloponnesians, near Laconia, being close to Sicilians which is consistent with what we already knew.
> 
> You are very unlikely to see people from Epirus, Thessaly, or Macedonia being genetically that close to Sicily or to Crete, and there is a reason for this. Laconia, Sicily, and Crete are all likely closer to the classical Greeks than people in northern Greece today are. 
> 
> 2) However, the historical fact everyone is neglecting is, the similarity is more likely due to that after Slavs were expelled from the Peloponnese, large numbers of Greek-speaking Sicilians and Calabrese were moved by the Byzantine Empire over to the Peloponnese to repopulate the abandoned cities and towns. Also, Cretans, who are also similar to Sicilians and to modern Laconians too, also contributed to the repopulation. The surnames between Crete and Laconia (which is the region with the highest IBD sharing to Italy if you look at this study) are also similar. Therefore, Peloponnesians may be as Sicilian as the reverse, plus Cretan ancestry would contribute to that effect, because Sicilians overlap with both Laconia and Crete today. Everyone is emphasizing Sicilians being Greek... maybe Peloponnesians are part Sicilian, and history suggests they might be. 
> ...


People who attempt to draw conclusions from genetic data produced by various tools should understand those tools and their limitations. You seem to be obsessed with PCAs, that is, when you're not obsessed with results from gedmatch and calculators based on modern populations, results drawn, moreover, from samples whose provenance can't be verified. You don't seem to be aware that PCAs are limited in their usefulness, at least the PCAs we are accustomed to see, because they only capture two dimensions. In some cases that means they capture less than 50% of the variation. I'll repeat that...*in some cases they capture less than 50% of the variation. 
*
That's why other tools are also used. Now that we have formal stats for analyzing that kind of data it's essential to use them, in my opinion, and the fact that these authors didn't is a major flaw. However, in addition to PCA, they did use Admixture, although again there the presentation was a bit sloppy in terms of the labeling, and therefore unnecessarily confusing.

Now, to turn to your specific points, such as they are:

1. I can't seem to find one data point in that entire paragraph. Please refer to post 204 and provide evidence regarding this "large" migration of "Sicilians" into the Peloponnesus. You don't get to make unsupported claims on this Board. 

I'm unaware of any academic analysis similar to this one having been performed on Central Greeks or those of Thessaly or Macedonia. Until that's done, this kind of _certainty_ about percentages of "Slavic" dna, or similarities to Italians, for that matter, is misplaced. It's "surely" possible, but there's no "surely" about it. Many migrations of the past could be contributing to the Greek cline. 

Some inferences could be made from yDna, but going by the data provided here on this Board, I don't see any major differences whatsoever between Southern and Central Greece of any y lines which could be considered particularly "Slavic". Indeed, the differences are minimal for any areas of Greece. Unfortunately, this data isn't broken down into R1a-458 or the possibly more Slavic forms of I2, so it's by no means definitive. 
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

Now, maybe more detail is available, but it should be kept in mind that percentages of a certain yDna can't be correlated one to one with autosomal composition. It all depends on the size of the migrating groups and to what extent it was male mediated. 

I don't know how often this has to be said, but the only way to know which populations were closest to the Greeks of the Bronze Age or the Classical Era is to get ancient dna and do some comparisons. All this endless speculation, usually agenda driven, is useless, and I won't engage in it. 

2. Please see my comment above and post #204. Also, there's no need to repeat the same point over and over again. Most of us can read and understand what we read.

3. Now you're contradicting yourself. Plus, the Greek mainland was colonized by the Aegean as well. That is, other than the far northern parts of modern day Greece, which were actually colonized shortly before the major period of Greek colonization in the first millennium BC, which could be another factor in the development of the Greek cline. 

4. Please go back and read the entire thread. This has been discussed. There is too much shared ancestry from too many eras. Clarification can only come from ancient dna from these migrations, and comparisons to all the inhabitants of the Balkans, including the Greeks from various regions. What seems to be the case, however, is that there was no "replacement".

I'm sure there's a great deal of IBD between the people of Crete and the rest of the Peloponnesus and the mainland as well. 

On the Paschou PCA I see two Sicilians who seem to be outliers near the Cappadocians. I see two near the Peloponnesus. Some may be hidden under the left part of the Crete "blob". Regardless, please read my point number one about PCAs. 14.4% was the highest part of the range. It is misleading to imply that this is the figure for all of the Peloponnesus other than Lakonia.

See Haak et al. The "Greek" sample is half Thessaly and half the area around Athens. Even then, only some of the samples plot near Tuscans. If I were to guess, I'd say it's likely that the "Athenian" samples are the ones that plot further south toward southern Italians.


Much of this has already been said upthread. I don't see the point of repeating the same things over and over. We need to wait for ancient dna for more definitive answers.

----------


## spartan owl

to oreo cookie
i know the source for your claiming about sicilians repopulating peloponnese but it is very untrustworthy and you can not take it seriously, even if i personally belive that there is a foundation of trouth in it
All other serious historical sources contradicts those naratives and further more it is claiming that the peloponneseans fled to sicily and afther a couple of generations they returned.
for example it is claiming that the population of patra migrated to reggio calabria and after some time the empire used the population of reggio to repopulate patra.
i seriously doubt that byzantines had the operational capacity to move the entire peloponnesean population to italy and then move them again back in.
but as i said before maybe something like that happened but only in small numbers.
we know it had happened (in small numbers) for sure later in time when the byzantines lost their italian territories anyway.
on the other hand i agree that even without the greek colonization south italians and greeks would overlapse for obvious reasons.
One other point is that i see in the admixture analysis of paschou that the s.e lakonia match better with the tuscans while crete is more similar to sicily.
as for your claiming that the peloponneseans who do not match with the sicilians means that they are slavs, how can you tell that they are not more of doric or achean descent that it is supposed to come from the north?
in s.e lakonia for example we have mainly a pelasgian population ruled by the acheans and later from the dorians of north laconia (achean and doric sparta)
finally comparing peloponneseans to bulgarians does not prove much as bulgarians have a strong mediterranean component anyway.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> Please provide citations to studies detailing when precisely this occurred, how many people were involved, the number of people living in the Peloponnesus at the time, the locations where they were settled, and how many were Greek speaking "Sicilians" versus Greeks living in Sicily.
> 
> Even should that evidence be unambiguous, unless the majority of the island went to the Peloponnesus, and given that the Neolithic arrived in Sicily at least partly from Greece, given the extensive contacts during the Bronze Age, and given the migrations during the first millennium BC which created Magna Graecia, etc., to attribute "much of the similarity" to this minor event is sadly lacking in logic. 
> 
> I'm afraid you'll have to do better than this kind of nonsense, Sikeliot.


My point is that we should not be assuming the gene flow was all from Greece to Sicily when it is very unlikely that is the case. Sicilians do have some Greek ancestry (and given all of the millennia of contact, it must be island-wide by now), but why not consider the opposite too? Anyway the Cretan connection to the Peloponnese is evident in shared surnames not present elsewhere.

When Greeks colonized Sicily, they Hellenized the native people fairly quickly. How do we know how many Sicilians were actually Greek transplants versus native people, who would have been similar anyway? There is no way of knowing, any more than it is possible to differentiate the English and the Scots for instance. No one provided evidence of the number of Greeks in Sicily in ancient times, either. 

I'm just saying people are jumping the gun by implying the similarity is due to Greeks in Sicily. It could be due to the reverse, or they could have always been similar. We DON'T know. You said there is too much shared ancestry from too many eras to know, so why assume it is ALL due to Greek colonization in Sicily when it could be many other things? 

My point was Greeks not plotting near Sicily, on the mainland, likely would if there was no Slavic admixture. If you don't agree, fine, but there is no more evidence to prove your hypothesis than there is mine. 

Anyway there is a citation about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelopo...vic_settlement

The claim comes from a book: "Many Slavs were transported to Asia Minor, and many Asian, Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks were resettled in the Peloponnese. The entire peninsula was formed into the new _thema of Peloponnesos, with its capital at Corinth"


_Anyway about the PCAs above, the ones you assume to be Thessalian are closer to Bulgarians than to Sicilians. On the Paschou et al one, I zoomed in and see Sicilians hidden under various parts of the Cretan cluster.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> Right, they missed the only really important thing to prove their point - the data of the NEIGHBOURING Slavs. In the end we have a good clue from where Peloponnesians are not, that is they are not from Gdansk or Omsk, no Klingons and no Ferengi. If somebody wanted to be sure about exactly that, Stamatoyannopoulos and his friends have done a good job.


Yes. It seems obvious to me they did whatever they could to minimize the extent of admixture from the north, which would have been higher if they used neighboring Slavs and not Ukrainians, Poles, and Russians.

----------


## Angela

You were asked to provide precise data for your argument that* much of the similarity between the people of the Peloponnesus and the Sicilians can be explained by a supposed movement of "Greek speakers" from Sicily to the Peloponnesus to Sicily.*




> Angela: Please provide citations to studies detailing when precisely this occurred, how many people were involved, the number of people living in the Peloponnesus at the time, the locations where they were settled, and how many were Greek speaking "Sicilians" versus Greeks living in Sicily.


This was your response:



> Anyway there is a citation about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelopo...vic_settlement
> 
> The claim comes from a book: "Many Slavs were transported to Asia Minor, and many Asian, Sicilian and Calabrian Greeks were resettled in the Peloponnese. The entire peninsula was formed into the new _thema of Peloponnesos, with its capital at Corinth"
> _


The Wiki article says nothing of the sort. I want the cite to the book which you claim supports your position. How are we supposed to judge its reliability with no link to it? If it doesn't answer the above questions then you have proved nothing.

If you are referring to the so-called "Chronicles of Momemvasia", the Wiki article you yourself cite says it's unreliable. That so called Chronicle doesn't claim, as you state, that the "Greeks" returning were just "Greek speaking Sicilians". It says they were Greeks from Patros(in the far northern part of Greece since you seem not to be familiar with the geography of the Peloponnesus) who went to Sicily and then returned. It also says all the Slavs were killed. Do you believe that too?

We're supposed to take an argument seriously which picks and chooses which parts of an ancient anonymous writing are to be given credence, and even distorts what it says? I don't think so. That's arguing from an agenda, not neutral, logical reasoned analysis.

The next time you deliberately attempt to distort sources there will be consequences.




> I'm just saying people are jumping the gun by implying the similarity is due to Greeks in Sicily. It could be due to the reverse, or they could have always been similar. We DON'T know. You said there is too much shared ancestry from too many eras to know, so why assume it is ALL due to Greek colonization in Sicily when it could be many other things?


The only people jumping the gun on this issue are people operating from an agenda, and that includes you. If you had read all the posts carefully you would see that I never said that *all* the similarity is due to Greek colonization, and I explained that some gene flow could have gone the other way. *Stop attributing statements to me which I didn't make.

*Neither do I ever make any claims about how "Greek" genetically the people of Magna Grecia might have been. *You* are the one who is making all these unsubstantiated claims about the composition of ancient and even historical people. 

I'm not going to say this again: one PCA is not dispositive of anything. That's a rookie mistake. I don't care how much you zoom in, you can't see underneath that blob. Unless, of course, in addition to a crystal ball and a time machine you have Xray vision like Superman.

Regardless, you've made your point. To keep posting the same thing over and over again is spamming and there are consequences for that as well.

----------


## oreo_cookie

Fine. Point taken. I just wonder why Hauteville, who made MANY unverified statements, was not asked to verify them in the same manner I was.

I just wanted to demonstrate that other regions of Greece, such as Crete, are also similar to Sicilians and that we do not know, without ancient samples, if Peloponnesians contributed 1% or 100% to Sicilian DNA. So anyone trying to say the admixture was large, should also be expected to explain why they think so.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

We can't solely rely on centuries-old literature such as the Chronicle of Monemvasia to argue that lots of Greeks from Italy and Sicily were transplanted to repopulate the Peloponnese hundreds of years ago. It's possible also that there were many Greeks living in the Peloponnese during and immediately after the medieval Slavic invasions and settlements. That could help explain why the Slavs eventually became Greek, while in other Balkan areas, they didn't. It could also help explain why this study finds that Peloponnesians and southern Italians are genetically close. 

With more genetic tests, and with more data from other disciplines, we can hopefully put more pieces of this puzzle together.

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## oreo_cookie

> We can't solely rely on centuries-old literature such as the Chronicle of Monemvasia to argue that lots of Greeks from Italy and Sicily were transplanted to repopulate the Peloponnese hundreds of years ago. It's possible also that there were many Greeks living in the Peloponnese during and immediately after the medieval Slavic invasions and settlements. That could help explain why the Slavs eventually became Greek, while in other Balkan areas, they didn't. It could also help explain why this study finds that Peloponnesians and southern Italians are genetically close. 
> 
> With more genetic tests, and with more data from other disciplines, we can hopefully put more pieces of this puzzle together.


It also depends on where they sampled. Which part of Sicily did they sample? This might (or might not) make a difference. Frankly, I think a study of this sort needs to be done on Sicily to discern if there are autosomal differences across the island. All we have are haplogroup studies thus far.

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## Yetos

> Mainly Yes, but I am still wondering is it normal "all killed or left" or "Pontic Greek version of all killed or left" in Turkish Blacksea coast. All supposed to have been gone to Greece. But still some left in Turkey under the name Islam and Turk
> 
> Also my point was that there was Greek Refugees in Peloponnese. I didn't said majority as in Greek Macedonia(I told many many times in different way.) 
> 
> and I prooved it 
> 
> 
> 
> About that, word: majority, I didn't say it too. I told that there should be some Asia Minor Greeks before Population Exchange in 1923 
> ...


I will send email, we are moving out of thread

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## Hauteville

Sicilians plot north of Maniotes and Taygetos, and in the group of Laconians and other Peloponnesians except the Tsakonians who probably are the only one Peloponnesians with some Slavic and Albanian admixture (maximum 14.4%) (see the intra-Peloponnesian map down)

invia immagini

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

The last map is a detailed PCA plot of Italy and Balkan peninsulas from the same study of Peristera Paschou, Sicilians plot with Lakonians and other Peloponnese groups and north of Crete and Dodecaneso.

image share

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## Hauteville

> 3) The pre-Greek people of Sicily were likely quite close to the original people of the Aegean to begin with. Most of the people who lived in Sicily likely passed through the Aegean before landing there, with the exception of the Siculi who were Italics from the mainland. Even if no Greek ever set foot in Sicily, they'd still be close to one another. Their common roots should go back to the Neolithic.


The Sicani might had an aegean extraction, but not as population but as an old culture, Sicani were born in Sicily, while Siculi, Elimi, Morgeti, Ausoni and Mamertini came from mainland Italy as Indoeuropean Italic-speaking groups, the same regions of the south of Italy like Calabria had similar population like Bruzi and Enotri who were Italic speaking population. So not the peoples entered in Iron age era from the aegean sea but the old cultures of early bronze age as Stefania Sarno has calculated in her study about South Italy's genetics.

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## Angela

> Fine. Point taken. I just wonder why Hauteville, who made MANY unverified statements, was not asked to verify them in the same manner I was.
> 
> I just wanted to demonstrate that other regions of Greece, such as Crete, are also similar to Sicilians and that we do not know, without ancient samples, if Peloponnesians contributed 1% or 100% to Sicilian DNA. So anyone trying to say the admixture was large, should also be expected to explain why they think so.


What is this, kindergarden? Teacher, why are you picking on me? What about him?

I don’t see any evidence in this thread that Hauteville distorted any data…




> “No doubts that Peloponnesians have loads of overlap with Sicily and Southern Italy, loads of cities of Magna Grecia and Sikelia were from Messenia or Corinto just to say.”


Are you doubting that there is overlap between Sicily and Southern Italy? You’ve been saying the same in all your posts on this thread. How is this a distortion?




> “Anatolian Greeks do not plot with Southern Italians and Sicilians but close to Armenians and Assyrians and Peloponneso was almost untouched by them.”


The first part should be obvious to anyone who has spent a half hour looking at data from this part of the world. The second was supported by this source, among others.
“https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...taLausanne.jpg

I see no problem with it. In addition, it’s irrelevant as a point of contention because the genetics of the sample go back to 1860-1880, far before any population exchanges of any part of the 20th century.




> “Turkish were mostly converted locals.”


I missed that one. It would require proof if it weren’t irrelevant.




> “I think 14.4 is the maximum individual (I didn't find the average).”


That’s correct and right out of the paper. Didn't you read it?




> “Me too, una faccia una razza is real, Greek ancestry in South Italy but we don't forget Roman/Italic settlements to Greek world. The Eastern Roman Empire survived until 1453 ;)”


These settlements should be well known to anyone with a secondary school education. I’m sure he’d be happy to provide proof if you’ve never heard of it. Why didn’t you ask in that case? Besides, it’s proof for your contention that the gene flow wasn’t totally one sided.




> “A key of answer is surely the aDNA; I would think bronze age populations of South Italy and Greece were close together, not just Magna Grecia, not just Roman settlements to Greece, not just Eastern Roman Empire input and not just Athens and Neopatria under Sicilian control in 1300-1400, or Corf� under Neapolitan control.”


Seems like an eminently sensible comment. What is there to contest or question there?



> “Quite interesting, I want to see a comparison between Siracusa and Corinto and between Messina and Messenia who were the two most Peloponneseans colonies of Sikelia and by the most important of Megale Hellas.


”

It's a question.

Do I really have to go on?

I found no odd factoids, no distorted interpretations of questionable data, unlike what was clearly present in your posts. 

You may perhaps be accustomed to dealing with people who have no knowledge of the relevant history of these areas. That isn’t the case here. I had no knowledge of any reliable source which would support your claim, but I gave you the chance to produce one on the odd chance that I had missed some important document. You didn't have one. It was all either total misreading of a source everyone knows is unreliable or a deliberate misreading of it to support your agenda.

I don't play favorites here, no matter the ethnicity. You ought to try that some time. It gives people a lot more confidence in the points made.

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## Angela

> Sicilians plot north of Maniotes and Taygetos, and in the group of Laconians and other Peloponnesians except the Tsakonians who probably are the only one Peloponnesians with some Slavic and Albanian admixture (maximum 14.4%) (see the intra-Peloponnesian map down)
> 
> invia immagini
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
> 
> The last map is a detailed PCA plot of Italy and Balkan peninsulas from the same study of Peristera Paschou, Sicilians plot with Lakonians and other Peloponnese groups and north of Crete and Dodecaneso.
> 
> image share


 They only plot "north" of *some* people from deep Mani and the Taygetos to be precise. Regardless, as I've been saying, PCAs are only one tool. As to your post 215 we are straying from the topic of the paper, which is not about Sicily.

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## oreo_cookie

> Sicilians plot north of Maniotes and Taygetos, and in the group of Laconians and other Peloponnesians except the Tsakonians who probably are the only one Peloponnesians with some Slavic and Albanian admixture (maximum 14.4%) (see the intra-Peloponnesian map down)


There is nothing in any of those plots indicating 'north' or 'south' to me. They're scaled differently.

As for Paschou et al I do not wish to get off topic and I will keep this brief but I won't let your statements go unchallenged. The paper SAYS, in words, that Sicily has partial overlap with Crete, and the dendrogram places it *right between* Crete and Laconia (see: 3581gfk.jpg ). Other Peloponnesians on that study are more north of Sicilians, and if you actually read it rather than looking at PCAs that you don't know how to interpret, you'd know this. 

From the study: "The geographic proximity and *partial overlap in the PCA of Crete and Sicily* is also compatible with gene flow from Crete to Italy and to Southern Europe through population movements along the Southern Mediterranean coast."

With that said, Angela did say we are getting off topic and not to continue emphasizing PCA plots, so I am not going to go further with this. Moving on.

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## oreo_cookie

> What is this, kindergarden? Teacher, why are you picking on me? What about him?
> 
> I don’t see any evidence in this thread that Hauteville distorted any data…


He did above, because while people say I try to make Sicilians more "exotic" he is invested in doing the opposite. Also, his statement the Elymians were from Italy is also not verified -- right now, their language is unclassifiable, but the little evidence existing is that they may have been Anatolian. With that said, I read your above post, will take heed of it, and will just move on and do better from now on.

If Cretans were included in this study I think they would have overlapped with some of the Peloponnesians and with Sicily, which is what has been the case in other studies.

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## Hauteville

You're the only one who gave a distorted vision about Sicily and Southern Italy in these forums, Peloponneses are not much more northern than Sicilians in these PCAs because the position change in both figures, in the figure a the Peloponneseans appeared to be more northern but in the figure b it's the opposite. Of course you in your thread of Apricity shows only the figure a but not the figure b who was hided by you of course. Because of it doesn't fit in your agenda, that's clear all over the forums.

image hosting

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## Hauteville

> "The geographic proximity and *partial overlap in the PCA of Crete and Sicily* is also compatible with gene flow from Crete to Italy and to Southern Europe through population movements along the Southern Mediterranean coast."




From the last study: a) *Notice the north to south distribution of the populations and that the Peloponneseans are placed to the far right of the graph and overlap with the Sicilians*.

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## Azzurro

I thought this was supposed to a Greek Peleponnesian thread, anyways the connection between the Peleponnese, Sicily and Crete probably stems from different sources all having a role, first being that Cretans (along with Rhodes) were involved in colonizing Gela which in turn formed Akragas (Agrigento), both were pretty populated. Secondly the Dorics (or Doric speakers) came into the Peleponnese and formed the majority, they also colonized Crete and Sicily (along with other colonies in Southern Italy) later, thirdly the non Indo-European connection (Southern Italy, Crete, Greece in General are higher in J2a, T, E (non V13), and J1). I am not including J2a-L70, T-CTS54, J2b-Z597 and E-V13 .

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## Hauteville

> Also, his statement the Elymians were from Italy is also not verified -- right now, their language is unclassifiable, but the little evidence existing is that they may have been Anatolian. With that said, I read your above post, will take heed of it, and will just move on and do better from now on.


http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?...&id=49&lang=en

*The language used to engrave the vase inscriptions and to write the coin markings belongs to the Indo-European family, and in most of the academic world today this language is considered part of the Italic group instead of Anatolian.*

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## Angela

I'm losing my patience. No more squabbling. My only concern is that what's posted here is fact based and that only logical conclusions be drawn from those facts. I don't care what things are posted on anthrofora. 

The absurd statements made here have been addressed. For the rest, if someone has some new data to submit, great, but don't spam the same points over and over again. Repetition doesn't correct the errors of a false analysis. 

Also, the topic is Greek genetics within the parameters set up by the paper. I'm going to start removing off-topic posts.

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## oreo_cookie

> Peloponneses are not much more northern than Sicilians in these PCAs because the position change in both figures, in the figure a the Peloponneseans appeared to be more northern but in the figure b it's the opposite. Of course you in your thread of Apricity shows only the figure a but not the figure b who was hided by you of course. Because of it doesn't fit in your agenda, that's clear all over the forums.
> 
> image hosting



Since this is about this study I will address it. There are, in figure b, no "northern" populations, it is not a European-wide PCA but just Southern Europeans so the axes are different, so you cannot determine from that who is or is not more "northern". If anything it appears to be showing the populations on an eastern to western scale, which means that since Sicilians have some NW European and Peloponnese some NE European, you'll see the Sicilians going more west. This is just common sense. It is not telling you northern-ness. As for figure c, it also does not measure genetic proximity (so again you cannot gauge who is and is not more "northern"), but direct gene flow. Notice the Sicilians received gene flow from France, Italy, Crete, Dodecanese, and SOME of the Peloponnesians. 

Figure A, in fact, does have northern populations on it, so you can. If someone else would please indicate or verify if I am reading these correctly, I would appreciate it.

Also, since Angela said PCA is only one way and it has limitations, I then want to know: what is the more accurate way of measuring genetic proximity? IBD? How do we address the limitations of PCA plots to improve upon them?

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## Angela

> Since this is about this study I will address it. There are, in figure b, no "northern" populations, it is not a European-wide PCA but just Southern Europeans so the axes are different, so you cannot determine from that who is or is not more "northern". If anything it appears to be showing the populations on an eastern to western scale, which means that since Sicilians have some NW European and Peloponnese some NE European, you'll see the Sicilians going more west. This is just common sense. It is not telling you northern-ness. As for figure c, it also does not measure genetic proximity (so again you cannot gauge who is and is not more "northern"), but direct gene flow. Notice the Sicilians received gene flow from France, Italy, Crete, Dodecanese, and SOME of the Peloponnesians. 
> 
> Figure A, in fact, does have northern populations on it, so you can. If someone else would please indicate or verify if I am reading these correctly, I would appreciate it.
> 
> Also, since Angela said PCA is only one way and it has limitations, I then want to know: what is the more accurate way of measuring genetic proximity? IBD? How do we address the limitations of PCA plots to improve upon them?


You've made your point about the PCAs at least three times. It's spam. Make it again and I'll remove the post and issue an infraction. 

Plus, you are obfuscating...again! The comment about northern plotting populations was in post number 214. In that figure, Finns, Estonians etc. are indeed included and are to the left. Get it?

I have said a couple of times before in this thread that imo formal stats are the best way of analyzing autosomal dna, at least if the people using the programs know what the heck they're doing, which isn't at all clear to me when amateurs are involved.

PCA is PCA. It has its uses or academics wouldn't turn to it, but it has to be interpreted carefully, and in conjunction with fst, ADMIXTURE, and formal stats. 

Now stop trying to continue the argument by talking about the same PCA and asking the same questions over and over again. It's spamming.

This is your last warning. Stop making the same comments over and over again.

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## oreo_cookie

> You've made your point about the PCAs at least three times. It's spam. Make it again and I'll remove the post and issue an infraction.


Fine. Hopefully Hauteville will do the same. I am not going to post it again, but hopefully the whole conversation shifts so there is nothing that needs to be countered.

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## Angela

You're the only one still posting false statements and resisting moderation. Cut it out *now*!

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## oreo_cookie

Ok, got it.

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## Ralphie Boy

What sticks out to me in this study is the authors' implication that modern Peloponnesians are largely direct descendants of Slavic-invasion era Greeks. If that turns out to be true, that would be a lethal blow to the Greek extinction theories.

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## Nik

I see you guys share some history together but I dont see anything wrong with oreo's first post. I don't see him making any claims rather than simply broadening the spectrum by mentioning a few more events that we can consider. 

Obviously u can play the "not proven" card for everything but it is indeed true that in South Peloponnese u find Cretan surnames and that South Italian and Sicilian "Greeks" could have been resettled in Peloponnese just like the Byzantines invited the Albanians in the first place. Even Venetians could have played their minor part by bringing the Peloponneseans and Italians even closer. Fun fact for you, the Arvanites/Albanians of Greece adopted several Italian words while in Greece like "tutti" (meaning "all"). 

Again, before someone plans to attack, I'm just stating what I know as the truth is the product of all these little facts altogether, not a competition between them.

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## LABERIA

> What sticks out to me in this study is the authors' implication that modern Peloponnesians are largely direct descendants of Slavic-invasion era Greeks. *If that turns out to be true, that would be a lethal blow to the Greek extinction theories.*


What we can understand from this study is that it seems there has never been a Slavic invasion of Greece.

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## Boreas

I don't know how this research can be a proof to deny Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer's theory.

The only clear way checking Peloponnesians dna with Byzantine, Roman and Hellenic samples from Peloponneia. 

I don't believe Merayer's theory. Slavic elements didn't so strong to exterminate all Hellenic ones. Still top Y-dna is E1b in Greece. Just this is a proof.

However Making chart with Russians and Poles, it is just funny. :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  

Why There is no South Slavs, let me tell you because if they did it, Greeks would be looking more close to them. 

*Sample

As a Turk, if I wanted to proof that Turks are European. I would use Greeks-Italians dna to compare with Turks
If I were white facist European and proof that Turks are not European, I would use Norwageians DNA. 

It is that much simple.* 

For me, it seems that since the begining they have decided what to tell and choose comparison samples according to it.

As I told you, the certain way to proof Merayer or deny, checking Peloponnesians dna with Byzantine, Roman and Hellenic samples from Peloponneia. Otherwise all words will be just a theory.

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## Angela

@Boreas,
In case you missed it I've said numerous times in this thread that the only way to really know what happened is to compare the ancient dna of the people living in the Peloponnesus, all of Greece really, prior to the Slavic migrations and then afterwards, or to compare the ancient dna of people from these "Slavic" tribes to the dna of these ancient Greeks.

Since we don't have it yet, or these authors didn't have it when they did the paper, they used modern Poles and other Slavs as a proxy. It's not a great proxy, granted, but would a comparison with "South Slavs" have really been better? I don't know. A comparison with the modern day people of the northern Balkans would have been interesting, but since they already shared so much ancestry with the Greeks pre-the-Slavic migration era, would a comparison tell us how many nominally Slavic or Slavic speaking tribes moved into the Peloponnesus? I don't doubt that some did migrate, btw. I guess part of the confusion for historians and geneticists alike is that the "South Slavs" are not really "Slavs" genetically. If I had to guess I'd say that component is less than 50%. Perhaps part of the resistance to this paper is that some groups don't want to find out how little actual "Slav" is in them as well. 

Looking at yDna would be another way of getting a handle on it, but, as I said, the total numbers of R1a and I2a in the Peloponnesus are very small, and the more likely to be specifically "Slavic" clades would, I think, be smaller yet. Did they carry stealth yDna or something? The levels in the northern Balkans are more respectable, so maybe that kind of comparison would be helpful. Does anyone have that data at their fingertips? 

With reference to yDna, E-V13 is still around 40% or more in the Peloponnesus, and my understanding is that the papers which found those numbers did not test Albanians. So, how does that compare to the E-V13 in the areas in the northern Balkans from which any well mixed, nominally "Slavic" tribes would have come?




> Laberia: What we can understand from this study is that it seems there has never been a Slavic invasion of Greece.


That's a straw man argument. Do you think you're on Eurogenes or something? :)

@Nik,
Sorry, but I think that's a total misreading of Sikeliot's point. This is what he said, to quote him verbatim:




> Oreo Cookie: See my post above. They moved* many* *Greek-speaking* Sicilians, Calabrese, and Cretans to the Peloponnese to restore and solidify its Greek character. *I attribute much of the similarity in the populations today to this.*


That is* not* what his supposed source actually said, even if that source were reliable, which it isn't. It said that *Greeks from Patras went to Sicily and then returned.* Did you even read my post pointing all of this out? His conclusion is also completely different from the much more nuanced, sensible comment you're making. 

I actually have stated, repeatedly, that the gene flow explaining similarities between Greeks and Italians went both ways and can't be attributed to one event, although it's clear that a lot of the gene flow went from Greece to Italy in many periods of history. Now, let's get back to the Greeks. As much as Sikeliot would like to make this about the Sicilians or southern Italians, it isn't. 

It is amazing to me how well documented historical movements through archaeology like Greek colonization of southern Italy can be ignored or downplayed in favor of totally unreliable speculations based on absolutely nothing if it suits a certain agenda or national myth.

Also, again, please, no straw man arguments.

Ed. One of the things that has to be kept in mind is that the Greek cline has probably been created over thousands of years by differential gene flows from both the north and the south. 

I found this lecture about Greek colonization interesting. Much of northern Greece was actually colonized from further south in Greece. The professor also makes the point that in his view the "center" of Greece was the Aegean. 

It's worth watching, I think, for anyone interested in this period of Greek history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z71ZmfYE08

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## Ralphie Boy

The authors of this study themselves say Slavs settled in the Peloponnese; nobody is saying they didn't. What is said is that Greeks are far apart from Slavs of certain countries. Nobody in his or her right mind would think that there's no admixture in the Peloponnese.

As far as Slavic Balkan countries, they probably plot relatively close to certain Peloponnesian populations, if not very close to them. Same with Albanians. We know Slavic was not spoken in much if not all of the Balkans until the Slavs arrived, which means they likely came from someplace else. If by the time they came to Greece they were admixed heavily with native Balkan populations, so be it. 

Some people seem to want to see modern Greeks as having no deep ancestral Greek ancestry and want them to be descendants of Turks, Slavs, Vlachs, Roma, Albanians, etc. The Peloponnese is at the center of this, because of Fallmerayer.

Many are looking forward to more discoveries to understand the tangled genetic history of the Balkans and elsewhere.

----------


## spartan owl

sicilians and other south italians did come to peloponnese when byzantium lost its italian terittories as i mentioned before but in small numbers.
i also noticed that in paschou research that oreo cookie mentioned s.e lakonia matches better with tuscans and sicilians with cretans in the admixture analysis.
another usefull information is that s.e lakonia did not had dorian and had also fewer achean settlements than north lakonia (sparta).

----------


## Boreas

> @Boreas,
> In case you missed it I've said numerous times in this thread that the only way to really know what happened is to compare the ancient dna of the people living in the Peloponnesus, all of Greece really, prior to the Slavic migrations and then afterwards, or to compare the ancient dna of people from these "Slavic" tribes to the dna of these ancient Greeks.


*
First one: The only clear way checking Peloponnesians dna with Byzantine, Roman and Hellenic samples from Peloponneia. 

Second one: As I told you, the certain way to proof Merayer or deny, checking Peloponnesians dna with Byzantine, Roman and Hellenic samples from Peloponneia. Otherwise all words will be just a theory.

*I have told the only way checking ancient Dna from Peloponnesus. 2 times in one post. But still accuse of missing it  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing:  


Also as in the Hun and Roman Empire case. 

Before the Huns arrive to Roman Border and start to fight with them. They forced to move other tribes (Migration Period) and caused to split Empire as West and East 

Similarly if the nations and tribes who lived on the road of the Slav, could be forced to move Greece or Anatolia too. You should able to seperate them from the actual old Helenic period Greeks as you will do it for Slavs Dna.




> It is amazing to me how well documented historical movements through archaeology like Greek colonization of southern Italy can be ignored or downplayed in favor of totally unreliable speculations based on absolutely nothing if it suits a certain agenda or national myth.


İgnoring ? I don't know who are talking about but *the only matter ancient Dna of Peloponnesian*, if someone try to make argument about this study and Southern Italians, that person was a kind of speculator who use inreliable source for this case. 

Btw I created Magna Graecia page in Turkish wikidepia so I know the basics  :Grin: 




> Also, again, please, no straw man arguments.


As you said, *the only way to really know what happened is to compare the ancient dna of the people living in the Peloponnesus.* But all we have this study, which makes all argument here straw man arguments.

and* again I don't belive Merayer,* but not because of this unmature study. The only way is obvious, but they have done this research. It can be just part of another research which has enough data to make arguments.

----------


## Angela

@Boreas,
I said you missed the fact that* I* had already said repeatedly that we need ancient dna. Before you get excited and start making accusations and repeat yourself ten times, make sure you're translating from English correctly. 

@Spartan Owl,
I would take any conclusions about genetics from OreoCookie/Sikeliot with a Mack truck's worth of salt.

Do you mean this Admixture analysis from Paschou et al? I would take another hard look at it. You see big differences here? Informative that Serbia is included. 

Paschou et al Admixture analysis.jpg

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Nobody is saying that Slavs didn't settle in the Peloponnese. Even the authors of this study say Slavs settled in the area, through their data. What they're saying is that the modern Greeks are genetically distant from certain other Slavic populations. This is valid because the Balkans didn't have the Slavic language until medieval times. That means Slavs came from somewhere else, or at the very least, the northern fringes of the Balkans. 

As far as Slavs being already mixed with native Balkan populations when they entered the Peloponnese, that's possible. There are studies in which Greeks are not too distant genetically from other modern Balkan populations--which as others have said is because of many hundreds if not thousands of years of interaction. 

This is a good study to me because of the closeness of Peloponnesians and southern Italians and Sicilians. It has strong implications of the survival of native Balkan populations, as opposed to the region being overrun by Turks and Slavs, and the locals dying out through attrition, migration or being killed off outright.

----------


## LABERIA

> That's a straw man argument.


It`is not necessary to read through data as someone suggest here, just read the conclusion of the study.



> Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic *and Asia Minor settlers.*


And according to some members here, the slavic presence in Greece can be explained:



> I believe that Y-DNA haplogroup I-Dinaric in Greeks is associated with Slavs, and that's fairly present in Greeks, but some or a lot of that could have been brought by others after the Slavs as well.


So, if we accept this theories, we can conclude that there was not an slavic invasion of Greece, merely some insignificant infiltrations.



> Do you think you're on Eurogenes or something? :)


What`s this?

----------


## Yetos

> So, if we accept this theories, we can conclude that there was not an slavic invasion of Greece, merely some insignificant infiltrations.
> 
> What`s this?


*
Indeed*

From the historical data we know how much it was , and where they settle,
even by usage of toponyms, and except some parts among Greece-Makedonia and FYROM-Slavo-Macedonia it is not a significant %.
it is different the story of raid and sack an area than to change the major % of genetics,

*IF we follow the logic that every place which was raid and sacked change its genetics and replace all older population* 
Then modern Rome is habited by Huns, and Goths,
ex-Yugoslavia Bulgaria and Albania by Turks etc etc South Spain by Arabs etc etc
*Alexander conquer raid and sacked half of the world,
and he Built Huge cities moving Greek population, some still exist, some are remnants*
We know that these changes left marks, who knows how much? from 0,01% to unknown xx % 
*BUT CAN WE SAY THAT MODERN EGYPT SYRIA AND wider IRANIANS ARE GREEKS ??? surely NOT* 
*AS FALLMAYER CLAIM ABOUT GREEKS, it is same thing


Cause if I follow Fallmayer's sense of Logic, about Slavs their raids and their 1-3 generations of certian castle occupation, max 80 years
Then what result should have Ottoman occupation for 400 years in Greece and 500 in other Balkan countries????
simple Logic directs Fallmayer to Atopon


*History is to teach us and direct us,
History can not be changed, 
but the combo of History, Archaiology, and Genetics give us clear view of the past.

----------


## Angela

> @Boreas,
> I said you missed the fact that* I* had already said repeatedly that we need ancient dna. Before you get excited and start making accusations and repeat yourself ten times, make sure you're translating from English correctly. 
> 
> @Spartan Owl,
> I would take any conclusions about genetics from OreoCookie/Sikeliot with a Mack truck's worth of salt.
> 
> Do you mean this Admixture analysis from Paschou et al? I would take another hard look at it. You see big differences here? Informative that Serbia is included. 
> 
> Paschou et al Admixture analysis.jpg


You might also want to take a look at this:
Paschou et al Admixture analysis 2.jpg

The thicker the line the more important the connection.

Paschou et al Admixture K8 based network analysis.jpg

In terms of the samples from Paschou et al, the "Peloponnesian" sample is from Tripoli, Arcadia. 

"In the Middle Ages the place was known as Drobolitsa, Droboltsá, or Dorboglitza, either from the Greek Hydropolitsa, 'Water City' or perhaps from the South Slavic for 'Plain of Oaks'."

The S.E. Lakonia sample is from the very tip of the right leg of Lakonia. It's neither Deep Mani nor the Taygetos area. It was part of the city state of Sparta. The name Neapoli or New City was adopted for the new city built there around 1837.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapoli_Voion

This is the most informative PCA from Paschou et al because it includes more of the relevant populations. The more such populations, the better the conclusions you can draw. As you can see it refutes what some people have tried to promote as the narrative. 



These things have to be checked before large conclusions are drawn, people. Don't accept what any one tells you about the results of a paper without reading it yourself and finding out if information has been withheld or even if the graphs have been cherry picked to support one agenda or another.

Apparently, some comment has surfaced from Razib Khan where he says that his analysis of FTDNA samples shows from 10-20% "Slavic" admixture for "Greeks". I didn't read it myself so maybe it's been garbled, but I fail to see how that contradicts the findings of the study that is the subject of this thread, which actually found for the Peloponnesus: almost none for deep Mani, but a high of 14.5% found in some other Peloponnesians. I would think, given where Central Greeks from Eurogenes plot, that they are probably around that too, and would probably plot somewhere from Abruzzi to Campania, as I've always maintained. The 20% figure probably comes from Thessaly. Also, I don't think it needs to be said that samples from FTDNA are self-selected and self-reported. Who knows how many samples are from people with all four grandparents from Peloponnesus and whether there is some skew in terms of areas within that peninsula.

----------


## last-resort

> Sicilians plot north of Maniotes and Taygetos, and in the group of Laconians and other Peloponnesians except the Tsakonians who probably are the only one Peloponnesians with some Slavic and Albanian admixture (maximum 14.4%) (see the intra-Peloponnesian map down)


 note: omitting a comment does not mean i agree with your other assertions. and my left shift key died so no/few capitalized letters for now.

i do not understand the last of the quoted material ".... except the Tsakonians who probably are the only one Peloponnesians with some Slavic and Albanian admixture (maximum 14.4%) (see the intra-Peloponnesian map down)". the figures/images you provided do not support that. plus several study quotes plus figures 4c and 4 d and Table 3 contradict your 'slav' assertion. and where were the albanians in this study?

were you trying to say something else? otherwise please explain/defend what you said.

----------


## Yetos

> As far as Slavs being already mixed with native Balkan populations when they entered the Peloponnese, that's possible. There are studies in which Greeks are not too distant genetically from other modern Balkan populations--which as others have said is because of many hundreds if not thousands of years of interaction.




How much admixture with previous populations could have the Slavs when they enter until Peloponese when all this happens at max 2 generations 60-70 years?
and surely endogamous until full Hellenization? isolated from the other Slavs.

Slavic entrance was a fast move, these Slavic Tribes that entered Greece are not connected with Later Dusan or Cymeon Slavs,
they were tribes and moved fast like Goths and Huns at the West Europe, 
Slavization in Balkans is not as some mention millions or Billions of Humans, and not so Fast as some could believe,
and that is why although entered they did not manage assimilate Latinophones of Balkans Romania, Remeni and Megle Aromanians,
At 1800 AD Latin Aromani were still spoken at Albania Serbia Bosnia Montenegro Bulgaria,

to understand this until today Greek are spoken in Bulgaria, and elsewhere at Balkans although 1,3 millenium of Slavs.

----------


## Nik

We're all pretty much agreeing with everything here at the moment. 

I have a question though and would appreciate if someone can help me better understand. 

What do they consider as Slavic admixture? Is it aDNA? Frequency of R1a and I2a? IBD?

----------


## MarkoZ

> Slavic entrance was a fast move, these Slavic Tribes that entered Greece are not connected with Later Dusan or Cymeon Slavs,
> they were tribes and moved fast like Goths and Huns at the West Europe, 
> Slavization in Balkans is not as some mention millions or Billions of Humans, and not so Fast as some could believe,
> and that is why although entered they did not manage assimilate Latinophones of Balkans Romania, Remeni and Megle Aromanians,
> At 1800 AD Latin Aromani were still spoken at Albania Serbia Bosnia Montenegro Bulgaria,
> to understand this until today Greek are spoken in Bulgaria, and elsewhere at Balkans although 1,3 millenium of Slavs.


I think this is what most people fail to realize: the Slavization of the Balkans was a rather gradual process, largely driven by the comparative soft power - ultimately conferred by Greek contacts - the lowland Slavs had over the transhumant herders in the Balkans. Before the Ottoman invasions and the settlement of highlanders in the north-western plains, the differences between high- and lowland populations would probably have been more pronounced, as is still the case with the partly 'unconquered' Montenegrins.

Considering this, the decision to use a population purportedly representative of the original Slavs isn't so bewildering. Although the more 'southern' Ukrainians surely would have been much better representatives of that core population than Poles or Russians.

----------


## Boreas

> @Boreas,
> I said you missed the fact that* I* had already said repeatedly that we need ancient dna. Before you get excited and start making accusations and repeat yourself ten times, make sure you're translating from English correctly.


My Pardon  :Heart:  but again I am still thinking your words could be translate as I did.  :Grin: 




> Paschou et al Admixture analysis.jpg


What are you seiing when you look at the chart?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to seperated non Slavs, I mean pre balkanians who have been forced to move Greece with Slav migration to reach the real Hellenic Greeks. But I don't think you can do that because similarity is too high between Greeks and those people

Also we should keep in mind that posibility of historical slav migration just as Slav migration as, Ottoman Period in Balkan was Mongol invasion.

----------


## LABERIA

> *
> Indeed*
> 
> From the historical data we know how much it was , and where they settle,
> even by usage of toponyms, and except some parts among Greece-Makedonia and FYROM-Slavo-Macedonia it is not a significant %.
> it is different the story of raid and sack an area than to change the major % of genetics,
> 
> *IF we follow the logic that every place which was raid and sacked change its genetics and replace all older population* 
> Then modern Rome is habited by Huns, and Goths,
> ...


I was going to make a long answer, but in the end i decided for a short answer. 



Helene Ahrweiler
It's a short video with subs in English(subs start after 20 seconds). In the end of the video there is an interesting quote from Odissea Elitis and is the second greek winner of the Noble Prize in Literatura quoted by me in this thread. I hope this time nobody consider him insignificant.

----------


## Angela

> My Pardon  but again I am still thinking your words could be translate as I did.


Now you're going to tell me what* I* intended to say? Do we have another mind reader here? There's a big lottery coming up. Can we go halves? :)




> What are you seiing when you look at the chart?


This is the discussion:

Spartan Owl made the following comment:
" i also noticed that in paschou research that oreo cookie mentioned s.e lakonia matches better with tuscans and sicilians with cretans in the admixture analysis."

My response was to post the Admixture analysis from Paschou et al. 

Attachment 8564

This version is easier to read:
Paschou et al Admixture analysis 2.jpg

The differences between the populations we're discussing are, in many instances, very minor, imo, and basically show a cline from those two islands to Crete and then continuing all the way to the North Italians. However, it also seems from this Admixture analysis Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans. In fact, the closest population to Tuscans, other than Northern Italians, are Macedonians, and translated to a PCA they would still be a bit "south" of them. Serbia is informative because it's also on that cline, which means using it or populations like it as proxies for "Slavic" gene flow would be very difficult. Do you disagree?

It also has to be kept in mind that Spartan Owl is referring to the Admixture analysis in Paschou et al, where the S.E. Laconia sample is not from Mani or Taygetos or any of those areas. They might not be that different, but we can't be sure. 

As for the rest, no one is ignoring the Slav migration, and that includes the authors of this paper. 

As I've said repeatedly, we really need ancient dna.

----------


## spartan owl

angela you are probably right but in the data provided by sikeliot in the apricity seemed like it.
Thats sure for k=2 k=3 k=4 and maybe for what it should be k=8 (i do not know if those data are correct)
Of course i do not claiming they are the same people and for sure the differences are minimal but whith pointing that s.e lakonians are closer to tuscans than to sicilians i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.
I had lived in neapolis for a couple of years and i know the region like the back of my hand.But i was always of the impresion that boeus whas an achean as most of the archeological sites are pre-doric sorry for that.(i hope that you did not miss the explanation that i gave for the various taygetos populations).
As for the admixture analysis am here to learn from the most experienced and not to impose my opininons.

----------


## Yetos

> I was going to make a long answer, but in the end i decided for a short answer. 
> 
> It's a short video with subs in English(subs start after 20 seconds). In the end of the video there is an interesting quote from Odissea Elitis and is the second greek winner of the Noble Prize in Literatura quoted by me in this thread. I hope this time nobody consider him insignificant.


Correct,as
*Correct as Ελυτης said Arbeler says the same, Επιστρωσεις, meaning coatings, plaster.
Arbanites Slavs Romans, Ottomans all are coatings comparing the mass of the wall
*No body denies that, but from a coating to wall comparing the wall is a long decimals,
No body denies the admixtures, but from that to fallmayer's total anihilation is years of running with speed light.

----------


## Angela

> Correct,as
> *Correct as Ελυτης said Arbeler says the same, Επιστρωσεις, meaning coatings, plaster.
> Arbanites Slavs Romans, Ottomans all are coatings comparing the miss of the wall
> *No body denies that, but from a coating to wall comparing the wall is a long decimals,
> No body denies the admixtures, but from that to fallmayer's total anihilation is years of running with speed light.


 I get your point, and I know you're responding to someone else, but Albanians and their similarity to Greeks and their influence on Greek genetics is not the subject of this thread. That discussion just takes us way off course into things for which there is no genetic proof as of yet.

----------


## Angela

> angela you are probably right but in the data provided by sikeliot in the apricity seemed like it.
> Thats sure for k=2 k=3 k=4 and maybe for what it should be k=8 (i do not know if those data are correct)
> Of course i do not claiming they are the same people and for sure the differences are minimal but whith pointing that s.e lakonians are closer to tuscans than to sicilians i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.
> I had lived in neapolis for a couple of years and i know the region like the back of my hand.But i was always of the impresion that boeus whas an achean as most of the archeological sites are pre-doric sorry for that.(i hope that you did not miss the explanation that i gave for the various taygetos populations).
> As for the admixture analysis am here to learn from the most experienced and not to impose my opininons.


No problem, Spartan Owl. I figured that's where you got that interpretation of the Admixture analysis. That's why I suggested that you take a look at it yourself. K-3 and K-4 are not informative for these purposes; you have to look at 6,7, and 8, and particularly 8. 

According to the findings of this paper, the "Slavic" ancestry, really the similarity to Slavic populations like Poland etc. is present everywhere in the Peloponnesus except perhaps Deep Mani. I wish people on the internet wouldn't post if they haven't read the paper and understood that. I don't know how similar the East Lakonia sample would be to them genetically. I take it you think they'd be pretty similar to those from Deep Mani if a comparison had been done? 




> Spartan Owl:  i was responding to the claims that every peloponnesean that did not match to the genetic profile of the sicilians must be of slavic descent.


Perhaps you misunderstood what was meant. If someone really said that then they either didn't read the paper or they are distorting the findings.

The similarity to the actual "Slavic" speaking tribes who moved into the Peloponnesus we won't know until we get ancient dna.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> This version is easier to read:
> Paschou et al Admixture analysis 2.jpg
> 
> The differences between the populations we're discussing are, in many instances, very minor, imo, and basically show a cline from those two islands to Crete and then continuing all the way to the North Italians. However, it also seems from this Admixture analysis Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans.


This chart shows a small North African component among Sicilians not present in Crete, slightly less of the pink component peaking in Palestine, and everything else is roughly the same. The pink Druze component is lower in both Peloponnesians and Laconians, and the Peloponnesians have more of the blue component peaking in NE Europe (nothing here inconsistent with the new study).

It appears Macedonian Greeks are those closer to Tuscans to me, too. 

With that said, I am unsure which version of the table I posted on Apricity and if it led to misleading information on this site being repeated on my behalf, I apologize and it was not my intent. If my interpretation over there was incorrect I'd quickly admit it and correct it.

Question for Angela: based on what you EXPECT from all the evidence we have thus far: what do you think ancient samples from Greece would show? If it is irrelevant and you do not know, that is fine. I just wanted to know your view.

----------


## ngc598

> ... Sicilians are not Cretans, and Peloponnesians are not Tuscans...


Shock!!! With all those arguments I was already convinced that ...
Seriously, statistics has become here almost the same as the oracle of Delphi. Although Pythia always tells the truth, people run in their doom, just because they don't waste a second thought on what she said exactly.



> ... Serbia is informative because it's also on that cline, which means using it or populations like it as proxies for "Slavic" gene flow would be very difficult. Do you disagree?


Well, Balkan is Balkan, there's no chance to deny it, and whoever entered this region, forced into motion after Mother Earth made some big blurp, he will finally end at the coast, and especially in the southern Peloponnese, where he finds the sign-board "Stop or swim!" Every people which might have been around at the Balkans over millennia, you will always find their genes in this region. 

What I wanted to see in this paper, how much of the Morean genes are Balkan, and how much unique elements (that is ... greek eventually?) could be squeezed out of the data. Instead Stammy just tried to disprove this *storyteller*, a task which has already made sufficiently someAlbert Thumb a hundred years ago. (Nice detail, that he found the Slavic admixture to be between 0.8 and 16.5 %, pretty close to the values of this new paper, just by counting names.)



> ... As I've said repeatedly, we really need ancient dna.


Seems that the museums don't have enough bones and teeth. On the other hand, I would be a bit careful at least with Mykenian DNA. Mythical genealogy describes the Achaean gens as a mixture of Egypt and Levantine people. In the graves of the rulers of that time may therefore be no real Greeks either.

Probably there is even a solution with modern people. The islands of the Aegean sea seem to be relatively untouched by non-greek populations. Slavic pirates hardly settled, just a few Albanians were known to hop the islands. Only the Venetians had a few real settlements, and that's documented. So, if I had the insatiable urge to find the Perikles, I'd try it there. Doesn't hurt at all, by the way - we are in serious lack of Aegean coverage anyway.

----------


## Angela

> This chart shows a small North African component among Sicilians not present in Crete, slightly less of the pink component peaking in Palestine, and everything else is roughly the same. The pink Druze component is lower in both Peloponnesians and Laconians, and the Peloponnesians have more of the blue component peaking in NE Europe (nothing here inconsistent with the new study).
> 
> It appears Macedonian Greeks are those closer to Tuscans to me, too. 
> 
> With that said, I am unsure which version of the table I posted on Apricity and if it led to misleading information on this site being repeated on my behalf, I apologize and it was not my intent. If my interpretation over there was incorrect I'd quickly admit it and correct it.
> 
> Question for Angela: based on what you EXPECT from all the evidence we have thus far: what do you think ancient samples from Greece would show? If it is irrelevant and you do not know, that is fine. I just wanted to know your view.


I guess you didn't read my post upthread. The "Peloponnesian" sample in that Admixture graph comes from *one* place in the Peloponnesus. You can't know what that graph would show if *all* of the Peloponnesus samples were included. We also don't know how close the S.E.Laconia samples are to the Peloponnesian samples in the subject paper. 

If you're going to get hung up on details, then include all the details, or you're going to mislead people.

Plus, if I have to get out a microscope to find the differences, am I to consider them of great significance? Sorry, you can't save your thesis this way.

Yes, you misled people on the apricity or wherever by just posting low K admixture. If you're going to draw conclusions from Admixture you first have to understand how it works.

I don't know what the ancient samples from Greece will show. It will clarify a lot of things, but we're going to have to keep in mind that the samples will come from elites, and they'll have to be analyzed by people who know what they're doing. I'd be surprised if there's *no* change at all from the Classical Era Greeks to today's Greeks, I'd be surprised if there's a *huge* change as well. Other than that I don't know; I leave the crystal ball gazing to others.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> I guess you didn't read my post upthread. The "Peloponnesian" sample in that Admixture graph comes from *one* place in the Peloponnesus. You can't know what that graph would show if *all* of the Peloponnesus samples were included. We also don't know how close the S.E.Laconia samples are to the Peloponnesian samples in the subject paper. 
> 
> If you're going to get hung up on details, then include all the details, or you're going to mislead people.
> 
> Plus, if I have to get out a microscope to find the differences, am I to consider them of great significance? Sorry, you can't save your thesis this way.
> 
> Yes, you misled people on the apricity or wherever by just posting low K admixture. If you're going to draw conclusions from Admixture you first have to understand how it works.
> 
> I don't know what the ancient samples from Greece will show. It will clarify a lot of things, but we're going to have to keep in mind that the samples will come from elites, and they'll have to be analyzed by people who know what they're doing. I'd be surprised if there's *no* change at all from the Classical Era Greeks to today's Greeks, I'd be surprised if there's a *huge* change as well. Other than that I don't know; I leave the crystal ball gazing to others.


Understood. My issue is often jumping to the charts and not reading as much as I should about the sample sources, sample sizes, and so on. That is my own downfall and I will do better in the future. It was not purposeful on my end. 

What is likely to me is differences existed across different regions of Greece even in "Ancient Greek" times (given proximity to Thrace, the fact of aboriginal populations on the islands before Hellenization, and so on), but again we'll have to wait to see. I generally find when there are conflicting theories, the truth often comes out somewhere in the middle.

----------


## Angela

> *Shock!!! With all those arguments I was already convinced that ...*
> Seriously, statistics has become here almost the same as the oracle of Delphi. Although Pythia always tells the truth, people run in their doom, just because they don't waste a second thought on what she said exactly.
> 
> Well, Balkan is Balkan, there's no chance to deny it, and whoever entered this region, forced into motion after Mother Earth made some big blurp, he will finally end at the coast, and especially in the southern Peloponnese, where he finds the sign-board "Stop or swim!" Every people which might have been around at the Balkans over millennia, you will always find their genes in this region. 
> 
> What I wanted to see in this paper, how much of the Morean genes are Balkan, and how much unique elements (that is ... greek eventually?) could be squeezed out of the data. *Instead Stammy just tried to disprove this storyteller, a task which has already made sufficiently someAlbert Thumb a hundred years ago. (Nice detail, that he found the Slavic admixture to be between 0.8 and 16.5 %, pretty close to the values of this new paper, just by counting names.)*
> 
> Seems that the museums don't have enough bones and teeth. On the other hand, I would be a bit careful at least with Mykenian DNA. *Mythical genealogy describes the Achaean gens as a mixture of Egypt and Levantine people. In the graves of the rulers of that time may therefore be no real Greeks either.*
> 
> Probably there is even a solution with modern people. The islands of the Aegean sea seem to be relatively untouched by non-greek populations. Slavic pirates hardly settled, just a few Albanians were known to hop the islands. Only the Venetians had a few real settlements, and that's documented. *So, if I had the insatiable urge to find the Perikles, I'd try it there.* Doesn't hurt at all, by the way - we are in serious lack of Aegean coverage anyway.


You're having fun with it, but people have been saying exactly that. :)

It's as if the rules for vampires didn't exist, and no matter how many times that Nordicist German "historian" gets stabbed in the heart they bring him back to life again. Maybe it's like zombies, and you have to chop off his head or he won't die. :)

If I were to speculate ahead of the evidence, I'd bet it will probably turn out to be 20% only in Macedonia and some places in Thessaly. For years when people were drawing all these conclusions about Greek genetics from one sample taken in Thessaloniki I kept saying that there was a cline in Greece and that particular sample wasn't representative. Virtually no one listened, mostly because it didn't fit their agenda to consider that. The same is true for the IBS sample for Spain.

I don't give much credence to myths like that. Plus, the "Egyptian" thing was already debunked for Crete.

A Yale professor of Greek history would agree with your last comment, as that you tube clip I posted shows. He maintains that the "core" of Greece is the Aegean islands.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> A Yale professor of Greek history would agree with your last comment, as that you tube clip I posted shows. He maintains that the "core" of Greece is the Aegean islands.


I wouldn't be so sure about this. The Greek islands were populated by many non-Greek populations (Carians, Minoans, and so on) and were colonized by the mainland the same way Cyprus, Sicily, and southern Italy were. Without ancient samples we cannot say if the people there were ever mostly 'Greek' by blood, or Hellenized. They may have changed comparatively less over the millennia, though.

Also, I would be surprised if all the Aegean islands are genetically the same as one another. There may be a gradient there too.

----------


## ngc598

> I wouldn't be so sure about this. The Greek islands were populated by many non-Greek populations (Carians, Minoans, and so on) and were colonized by the mainland the same way Cyprus, Sicily, and southern Italy were. Without ancient samples we cannot say if the people there were ever mostly 'Greek' by blood, or Hellenized. They may have changed comparatively less over the millennia, though.
> 
> Also, I would be surprised if all the Aegean islands are genetically the same as one another. There may be a gradient there too.


There is a difference between islands and the continent. The amount of occupations by different ethnics is much lower. Many continental folks are no seamen, therefore don't travel by sea; and islands have a limited capacity. Populations are often changed completely, if at all. Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island remains 'indigenous', or Greek or something else. The peopling by the Greeks is well documented, you know which home polis was doing it. 

By comparing one island with the other you will see the pattern, you can point to the characteristics of certain Aegean populations, there are not many unknowns, so you can pinpoint the genetics of certain tribes to a good degree. That's not possible on the continent, where at least every hundert years another tribe runs over the country with mostly unknown population numbers and not always known periods of occupation/dominance etc. There is often such an intense mixing of populations that you can't define a certain tribe's genetic characteristics. That doesn't happen on islands.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> How much admixture with previous populations could have the Slavs when they enter until Peloponese when all this happens at max 2 generations 60-70 years?
> and surely endogamous until full Hellenization? isolated from the other Slavs.


Eurogenes is accusing the study's authors of confirmation bias for not including South Slavic populations...and then is engaging in confirmation bias itself, by saying without proof that migrating Slavs absorbed lots of non-Slavic Balkan natives in their movements into Greece. This also could be fraught with problems, because without knowing how can we say which Balkan populations they were and how closely related they were to medieval populations of the Peloponnese? 

Then Eurogenes went full absurdity by posting a picture of a Greek soccer team and saying incoming medieval Slavs may have looked like them. 

Either way, this study looks solid to my layperson eyes, Balkan admixture implications notwithstanding. There have not been many genetic studies of Greek rural populations, especially those in the Peloponnese.

----------


## Angela

> There is a difference between islands and the continent. The amount of occupations by different ethnics is much lower. Many continental folks are no seamen, therefore don't travel by sea; and islands have a limited capacity. Populations are often changed completely, if at all. Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island remains 'indigenous', or Greek or something else. The peopling by the Greeks is well documented, you know which home polis was doing it. 
> 
> By comparing one island with the other you will see the pattern, you can point to the characteristics of certain Aegean populations, there are not many unknowns, so you can pinpoint the genetics of certain tribes to a good degree. That's not possible on the continent, where at least every hundert years another tribe runs over the country with mostly unknown population numbers and not always known periods of occupation/dominance etc. There is often such an intense mixing of populations that you can't define a certain tribe's genetic characteristics. That doesn't happen on islands.


That's why we find the most "conserved" genetic signals on islands like Sardinia or mountain valleys in the Alps. Even better is a remote, rather inaccessible region *on* an island, i.e. those Ogliastra samples from Sardegna. :)

I don't think the Aegean Islands would be like that because there was traffic through there from antiquity. It would probably be much better than the plains of Thessaly certainly. If they do test in the Aegean I certainly hope that they test octogenarians, and not college students. We want samples that go back beyond the dislocations of the 20th century. 

Speaking of which polis settled which area, that lecture by the Yale professor is very interesting on that issue. He points out that northern Greece was "colonized" by areas in central Greece. As you say, we have a lot of information about which polis had the most contact with which area, including which island. 

Before people draw conclusions about "Greeks" from dna, they have to define that term and in particular have to determine the time period. "Greek" speakers weren't native to Greece. Once they arrived, over time, the populations mingled. So, which Greeks are people discussing? The ancient people of the Greek mainland and islands before the Mycenaeans, the Mycenaeans, the Dorians, the people of Classical Greece? Which parts of Classical Greece? How about the Greeks of the Roman period? What about the diaspora Greeks of the Roman period? It gets very complicated when you're not speaking of some isolated corner of Europe with limited contact with anyone beyond their own valley until virtually the modern era.

I also don't know where this notion comes from that the people of Crete are so different from the people of the mainland, and it makes even less sense if they're talking about the people of the mainland before the Slavic migrations. People from Crete went to Greece in the Neolithic, and the Bronze Age migration from Asia Minor into Crete would have flowed on into the mainland. The Mycenaeans and the Minoans had a lot of contact, both in terms of trade and settlements. Based on admixture in Paschou et al, the people of Crete are not so very different from mainlanders even today. 

I suppose people do mean Pericles or someone very much like him. :) I'd like Sophocles, Euripides and Aeschylus myself, or, oh wait...Homer! Sapho too, and Plato, and Aristotle. My husband always wanted a time machine so he could go back and talk to Socrates.

I don't think we're going to get them.  :Sad:

----------


## Nik

I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".

If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this: 

E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states. 
J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes

Obviously by 400 BC this assumed dispersion "trend" would have changed as like I said more and more people were urbanized.

----------


## Angela

> I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".
> 
> If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this: 
> 
> E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states. 
> J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
> R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes
> 
> Obviously by 400 BC this assumed dispersion "trend" would have changed as like I said more and more people were urbanized.


Actually, since we're guessing, my guess would be that the IE speaking peoples didn't at all replace the "indigenous" population. They didn't even replace them in Central Europe, why would they replace them in Greece? The only places where there was anything close to "replacement" was where the Neolithic/Chalcolithic people were few in number. Many places in the far north weren't populated at all.

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## Sakattack

> R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent *the true IE Hellenes*


What we call Hellenes, what we call Greek language, what we call Classical Greece, is the result of the mingling between the Proto/Pre-Greeks and the IE Greeks. 

Most likely, though, the locals were actually much more in numbers.

----------


## Nik

@Sakattack 

You're basically saying what I already said. Are you just agreeing with me or what?

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## ngc598

> ... that lecture by the Yale professor is very interesting on that issue.


Now you have advertised Kagan the Sleeping Pill for the third time. So I listened for God's blessing, and yes I see - he dared to write off me :)




> ... Before people draw conclusions about "Greeks" from dna, they have to define that term and in particular have to determine the time period.


Pretty much the same as with Slavs or with any other people. I think most Greek people of today would agree, if we were defining them as the people coming to 'sterea' Hellas and the Peloponnese in the time between, let's say, 1600 BC and the not so dark 'Dark Ages', those people who, *at least in the imagination,* were responsible for the development and 'boom' of the classical Greek culture.

In the end it's of course impossible to detach the definition from origin, location and time, and so it should be handled when analysing DNA data. That's hard enough and we'll see whether there is someone who has the sense to gather the right data sets for this task.




> ... I also don't know where this notion comes from that the people of Crete are so different from the people of the mainland, ...


Infact, Crete and the mainland share a lot of population. On the other hand, Y-chromosome data show some significant differences, but overall there is more in common than separate. And then there is Sicici...ah, we already had that cleared! :)




> ... My husband always wanted a time machine so he could go back and talk to Socrates.


M-e-e-e-h! I wouldn't. His discussions were chewy like shoe soles, says my memory (Or was it just Plato, having his own agenda with his heritage?).

----------


## Sakattack

> @Sakattack 
> 
> You're basically saying what I already said. Are you just agreeing with me or what?


I think the wording you used is not the best. 
The "true Hellenes" are what you get when you mix the locals with some - most likely much smaller in numbers - IE. 

Sent from my Robin

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## Angela

@ngc598,
 :Laughing:  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 

Throughout Kagan's lecture I was actually thinking, my God, is this a required class or something? He's the kind of professor whom students generally avoid like the plague if it's at all possible. I, of course, always had such awesome powers of concentration and focus that it didn't matter. :Grin:  

No, no, it's Plato who wanted to see the world run by an oligarchy! I'm much more of an Aristotelian than a Platonist. You could say, if you wanted to really generalize, that all of western philosophy swings between the two. 

You're also right about the focus of much of this interest. I want to know Caesar's make-up, Augustus, Livia, as well as Ovid and Livy and Cicero. Throw in Agrippa too, and the Gracchi and Sulla. I also want to know about the unnamed people of the Republic into Imperial period: the chief engineers who designed the aqueducts and water systems and roads, the architect who designed the Pantheon, my favorite building in the world, the first legionnaires, and on and on. While I'm at it, I want to know what my Ligures, whom the Romans did their best to crush, were like. 

I like to dream big. :Smile:

----------


## MarkoZ

> I was going to comment on the "Ancient Greek" or "true Greek" DNA but then Angela covered it for me. You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".


The only 20th century Nordicist promulgation that I hate more than the Greek replacement theories is 'aboriginal Pelasgians'  :Rolleyes:

----------


## ngc598

> You are sounding like Fallmerayer but instead of Slavs replacing Greeks, you're saying the *Greeks replaced the "Pelasgians".*


I guess this was directed towards me! Now, let me repeat what I said...




> Populations are often changed completely,* if at all.* Only the large islands may have several different populations. So the chances are good that an island *remains 'indigenous'*, or Greek or something else.


I have no idea where the Pelasgians came into the discussion. Not even the Greek historians had a clue who they really were, at least everybody had another view, and there are at least half a dozen other Aegean folks described by them. Is 'Pelasgians' kind of a mixing bowl for everything around there? 




> ...If I would have to speculate, max I'd say this: 
> 
> E-V13 - Concentrated in the mountainous areas together with G and I2a, especially before the urbanization and expansion of many city states. 
> J2a - More prevalent in the lowlands and coastal areas, possible at higher numbers in the Aegean islands and lower in mainland compared to today
> R1b & R1a - More prevalent in urban areas assuming that they represent the true IE Hellenes...


E-V13 are no mufflons, as far my biological knowledges go. I see no reason why they should limit themselves to grass plucking. E-V13 are in similar amounts in all southern Balkan populations, just Kosovo has considerably more. This haplogroup is therefore not specific for some ethnicity or culturally distinct people or had some mountain theology.

J2a - there are at least half a dozen different subtypes on Crete, the continent should have at least as many, if not considerably more. All of them are clades older than 8000 years, so they are part of south European populations anywhere, again no specific population nor culture to give them a separate territory.

Martinez-Cruz was selecting continental Greeks in a more rural environment for comparison in his Roma-Study. If there is any evidence that some haplogroup is more in cities or more between the flowers, then there are more R1a and less J2 on the countryside than in the average population, but it's still well within error margins of such a sample.

No, assignments of major haplogroups to populations won't work.

----------


## spartan owl

s.e laconia is a large valley in the s.e extremity of pelponnese and is fairly isolated by a mountainous region from the rest of laconia.
the distance from sparta is 112km (2 hours by car because of the mountains).
A veterinarian friend of mine once had told me that a specific disease affecting the flocks, that is endmic in greece, is absent in neapoli probably because of the geografic isolation.
of course they did not live in total isolation as they are mainly sea people but i would not be surprised if they made a distinct group within laconia as the maniots do.
On the other hand they did not maintain their indipendence like the maniots did
So they gone through an ottoman and venetian occupation but they are more distant from the slavic settlements so i would expect even lower slavic influence. 
If had to guess as they are included in the laconian sample i would expect something between laconians and deep mani for them.

----------


## Blanco

It's been said that a good portion of Peloponnese Greeks are descendants of Arvanite colonies whom supposed to share the same origin with Aberesche in Italy and Albanians. Genetically speaking the E-V13 haplotype which peaks in Kosovars and some Albanian related tribes is also very significant in the Southern regions of Greece which suggest a shared origin between Albanians and Peloponnese Greeks.

----------


## Angela

> s.e laconia is a large valley in the s.e extremity of pelponnese and is fairly isolated by a mountainous region from the rest of laconia.
> the distance from sparta is 112km (2 hours by car because of the mountains).
> A veterinarian friend of mine once had told me that a specific disease affecting the flocks, that is endmic in greece, is absent in neapoli probably because of the geografic isolation.
> of course they did not live in total isolation as they are mainly sea people but i would not be surprised if they made a distinct group within laconia as the maniots do.
> On the other hand they did not maintain their indipendence like the maniots did
> So they gone through an ottoman and venetian occupation but they are more distant from the slavic settlements so i would expect even lower slavic influence. 
> If had to guess as they are included in the laconian sample i would expect something between laconians and deep mani for them.


They're not included in this paper at all from what I can see. They were the S.E.Laconia sample in the Paschou et al paper.

----------


## Angela

> The only 20th century Nordicist promulgation that I hate more than the Greek replacement theories is 'aboriginal Pelasgians'


What's the "aboriginal Pelasgians" promulgation? How is it Nordicist? 

I guess I missed this one.

----------


## Yetos

> It's been said that a good portion of Peloponnese Greeks are descendants of Arvanite colonies whom supposed to share the same origin with Aberesche in Italy and Albanians. Genetically speaking the E-V13 haplotype which peaks in Kosovars and some Albanian related tribes is also very significant in the Southern regions of Greece which suggest a shared origin between Albanians and Peloponnese Greeks.


But how much with Arbereshides? ????
and considering that V-13 does not showhigh peaks in areas of Arbanites, how sure you are that it cognates?

----------


## Yetos

> The only 20th century Nordicist promulgation that I hate more than the Greek replacement theories is 'aboriginal Pelasgians'


If I get your point, then,
oh boy that is really outrageous, or better 'Autochthones Pelasgians' with aspirations from baltic sea.

----------


## davef

> @ngc598,
> 
> 
> Throughout Kagan's lecture I was actually thinking, my God, is this a required class or something? He's the kind of professor whom students generally avoid like the plague if it's at all possible. I, of course, always had such awesome powers of concentration and focus that it didn't matter. 
> 
> No, no, it's Plato who wanted to see the world run by an oligarchy! I'm much more of an Aristotelian than a Platonist. You could say, if you wanted to really generalize, that all of western philosophy swings between the two. 
> 
> You're also right about the focus of much of this interest. I want to know Caesar's make-up, Augustus, Livia, as well as Ovid and Livy and Cicero. Throw in Agrippa too, and the Gracchi and Sulla. I also want to know about the unnamed people of the Republic into Imperial period: the chief engineers who designed the aqueducts and water systems and roads, the architect who designed the Pantheon, my favorite building in the world, the first legionnaires, and on and on. While I'm at it, I want to know what my Ligures, whom the Romans did their best to crush, were like. 
> 
> I like to dream big.


Saw the lecture for a few seconds and was like "booooring" before clicking x.

I do admire his ability to compute pi to the 1000000000000000000000th decimal place. According to him, it only takes him .00000000000000000036*e^.00004 seconds before his memory buses begin to erode. 

Ok back to the topic :).

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## DuPidh

> The results of one unknown person are meaningless for this kind of analysis, even if the topic were the similarities between the Peloponnese and Albania, which it isn't. I can't even say good try.


I wonder when they conducted the study about the genetics of Peloponnese, why the comparison was done to Sicilians and Italians and not Anatolian Greeks who supposedly were not touched by Slavic invasions? That wood have been more convincing if they proved that Anatolian Greeks untouched by slavic invasions are genetically identical with people from Peloponnese. Since both are parts of the same national body.Sicilians are a mixture of a number of non Greek ethnicity so the comparison with them is not quite normal. Why did they not take as Slavic homeland Bulgaria?

----------


## spartan owl

to angela
the last three dots in the south are from neapoli valley, (called vatika valley).
The trouth is that the inhabitants of those three villages look different and have different culture from the inhabitants of the mountains fourther south from the valley
(the first are farmers and shepards while the others are sea people, so they behave differently they listen to different music etc) but of course i can not tell if they are different also in terms of dna.
What you have to understand is that peloponnese is very mountainous and fragmentated both geograficaly as in terms of how someone defines his subgroup.
In laconia for example maniots are different from other laconians and all the sea side people are different from the spartan valley and mountains maybe even anthropologically but in the end of the day we all are laconians culturaly as well in terms of dna.

----------


## spartan owl

> I wonder when they conducted the study about the genetics of Peloponnese, why the comparison was done to Sicilians and Italians and not Anatolian Greeks who supposedly were not touched by Slavic invasions? That wood have been more convincing if they proved that Anatolian Greeks untouched by slavic invasions are genetically identical with people from Peloponnese. Since both are parts of the same national body.Sicilians are a mixture of a number of non Greek ethnicity so the comparison with them is not quite normal. Why did they not take as Slavic homeland Bulgaria?


you should read the study before talking!
it does compare peloponneseans with anatolian greeks and they are different but they are both different with slavs.
Reguarding bulgarians: as mentioned before the bulgarians have a strong mediterranean component so comparing them with the greeks wont proov anything.
And bulgarians are not true slavs to begin with but a small turkic-mongolian tribe mixed with a lot of slavs moovig to the balkans and getting "balkanized"

----------


## Angela

> to angela
> the last three dots in the south are from neapoli valley, (called vatika valley).
> The trouth is that the inhabitants of those three villages look different and have different culture from the inhabitants of the mountains fourther south from the valley
> (the first are farmers and shepards while the others are sea people, so they behave differently they listen to different music etc) but of course i can not tell if they are different also in terms of dna.
> What you have to understand is that peloponnese is very mountainous and fragmentated both geograficaly as in terms of how someone defines his subgroup.
> In laconia for example maniots are different from other laconians and all the sea side people are different from the spartan valley and mountains maybe even anthropologically but in the end of the day we all are laconians culturaly as well in terms of dna.


Thank you for catching that, Spartan Owl.

Genetics of Peloponnesians.jpg

Genetics of Pelopnnesians 2.PNG

Genetics of Peloponnesians 3.jpg

So the Lakonia sample here is similar to or identical with the S.E.Lakonia sample in Paschou et al.

Given the PCA and Admixture analysis, it looks like they group with the rest of the Peloponnesians, and not with Deep Mani, Tayetos, or Tsakonia, although the authors say they are slightly closer to Deep Mani and the Tsakones.

"Laconia is fairly closely related to both Deep Mani and to the Tsakones".

Yes, I think there is so much substructure here because like Italy, there is lots of rugged, mountainous terrain.

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## Yetos

> I wonder when they conducted the study about the genetics of Peloponnese, why the comparison was done to Sicilians and Italians and not Anatolian Greeks who supposedly were not touched by Slavic invasions? That wood have been more convincing if they proved that Anatolian Greeks untouched by slavic invasions are genetically identical with people from Peloponnese. Since both are parts of the same national body.Sicilians are a mixture of a number of non Greek ethnicity so the comparison with them is not quite normal. Why did they not take as Slavic homeland Bulgaria?



Simple, Minor Asian Greeks are closer to Ionians and Aeolians and not Doric of Peloponese

----------


## Blanco

> I wouldn't be so sure about this. The Greek islands were populated by many non-Greek populations (Carians, Minoans, and so on) and were colonized by the mainland the same way Cyprus, Sicily, and southern Italy were. Without ancient samples we cannot say if the people there were ever mostly 'Greek' by blood, or Hellenized. They may have changed comparatively less over the millennia, though.
> 
> Also, I would be surprised if all the Aegean islands are genetically the same as one another. There may be a gradient there too.


What proofs do you have that "Greek Islands" are less Greek than those living on the Mainland. If anything i would think it's the other way around because Mainland Greece was connected to the Balkans and thousands of Bulgarians, Arvanites, Serbians had settled down in Mainland Greece and most likely blended among the locals. On family finder some Greeks have 3rd cousins from Serbia, Ukraine and many are 1/4 Bulgarian even.... There's no any historical link that would support your idea. Minoans most likely died out and the island was replaced by Hellenes from the Mainland and surrounding regions. 
The reason South Italy is a bit more Mediterranean shifted than Inland Greece is because South Italy was free from "Northern migrations" so they remained more pure Mediterraneans, and the Greeks who settled down in Italy, Cyprus and the whole Mediterranean basin were most likely "purer" and more native Mediterranean stock than Greeks living on the Mainland today except Pontic Greeks who seem to be more Near Eastern and carrying Byzantine stock. 

All South Europeans including Sicilians, Sardinians, Greeks, Iberians arrived through the Neolithic period to Europe, so it's logical that these populations share more or less the same genetic make up.

----------


## DuPidh

> you should read the study before talking!
> it does compare peloponneseans with anatolian greeks and they are different but they are both different with slavs.
> Reguarding bulgarians: as mentioned before the bulgarians have a strong mediterranean component so comparing them with the greeks wont proov anything.
> And bulgarians are not true slavs to begin with but a small turkic-mongolian tribe mixed with a lot of slavs moovig to the balkans and getting "balkanized"


You are making my point! Slavs that invaded the Balkans have never been true Slavs. The invasion did not happen over night. It lasted 2 centuries. On they way of conquering new lands the Slavs absorbed many Balkans Mediterranean tribes who became culturally Slavs. Some of them invaded Peloponnese, which means even though a folk can be E-v13 it does not mean the individual was ever Greek ethnically. If you see the Serb DNA they have a high percentage of E, J, G, etc. Some of them made it down to Greece in search of warm weather. That's why Fallmeraye was right when said that replacement of populations in Peloponnese have happened.

----------


## Blanco

Here is what a biologist wrote about the study




> *Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians*. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the *Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%*. *Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either.* This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population.




^^

What strikes the most the very low green component which peaks in Slavic groups but it's almost absent in Greeks, while the French like component is clearly more dominant just like in the Italian sample at K=8

----------


## MarkoZ

> What's the "aboriginal Pelasgians" promulgation? How is it Nordicist? 
> 
> I guess I missed this one.


What I mean is the widespread idea that Pelasgians were the original pre-Indo-European population of Greece, based on a remark by Herodotus about their alleged autochthony (he nevertheless goes on to say that they came from Samothrace, a point that is usually ignored). The Indo-European immigration to Greece is usually grafted onto the hypothesis of a Dorian invasion and the semi-mythical Return of the Heracleidae, even though all of these must have been seperate events insofar as they actually occurred.

Most importantly, the northern invaders are of course held to be blond and the Pelasgians dark.

----------


## spartan owl

> You are making my point! Slavs that invaded the Balkans have never been true Slavs. The invasion did not happen over night. It lasted 2 centuries. On they way of conquering new lands the Slavs absorbed many Balkans Mediterranean tribes who became culturally Slavs. Some of them invaded Peloponnese, which means even though a folk can be E-v13 it does not mean the individual was ever Greek ethnically. If you see the Serb DNA they have a high percentage of E, J, G, etc. Some of them made it down to Greece in search of warm weather. That's why Fallmeraye was right when said that replacement of populations in Peloponnese have happened.


so your point is that people geneticaly similar to greeks, like "slavisized" greek macedonians for example, replaced the peloponnesean greeks and thats why dna research can not prove any big slavic component in them?!
even if that is the case what is the point that?!
that geneticaly speaking peloponneseans are greeks but lingusticaly speaking were not pure during some time in history?!
that is even more stupid.

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## Dibran

> so your point is that people geneticaly similar to greeks, like "slavisized" greek macedonians for example, replaced the peloponnesean greeks and thats why dna research can not prove any big slavic component in them?!
> even if that is the case what is the point that?!
> that geneticaly speaking peloponneseans are greeks but lingusticaly speaking were not pure during some time in history?!
> that is even more stupid.


I think the idea of holding anyone as a pure bred people is the stupid thing.

----------


## spartan owl

> Here is what a biologist wrote about the study
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^
> 
> What strikes the most the very low green component which peaks in Slavic groups but it's almost absent in Greeks, while the French like component is clearly more dominant just like in the Italian sample at K=8


so what?
the study must be wrong?
if you have an IQ above 100 and take a look at k=8 you just posted you will notice that slavs have higher DARK GREEN AND REDcomponent not LIGHT GREEN that is big even in andalusians.
The dark green is a little bit bigger in france, but italians have it low as the greeks and maybe even a little bit lower.

----------


## Angela

> What I mean is the widespread idea that Pelasgians were the original pre-Indo-European population of Greece, based on a remark by Herodotus about their alleged autochthony (he nevertheless goes on to say that they came from Samothrace, a point that is usually ignored). The Indo-European immigration to Greece is usually grafted onto the hypothesis of a Dorian invasion and the semi-mythical Return of the Heracleidae, even though all of these must have been seperate events insofar as they actually occurred.
> 
> Most importantly, the northern invaders are of course held to be blond and the Pelasgians dark.


Thanks. Yes, that I knew. 

Some people are going to have heartburn if the Mycenaean Lord turns out to resemble his reconstruction in terms of pigmentation. 

See:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...reconstruction

----------


## LABERIA

> I think the idea of holding anyone as a pure bred people is the stupid thing.


The discussion here is not about purity, but about continuity.

----------


## ngc598

> Some people are going to have heartburn if the Mycenaean Lord turns out to resemble his reconstruction in terms of pigmentation. 
> 
> See:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...reconstruction


Pfft! Who's this squint-eyed hunk anyway?

Achilles was blond - Ilias I, 197-199




> στῆ δ' ὄπιθεν, *ξανθῆς δὲ κόμης* ἕλε Πηλείωνα
> οἴῳ φαινομένη· τῶν δ' ἄλλων οὔ τις ὁρᾶτο·
> θάμβησεν δ' Ἀχιλεύς, ...


... and Menelaos as well - Odys. III, 324-326




> εἰ δ' ἐθέλεις πεζός, πάρα τοι δίφρος τε καὶ ἵπποι, 
> πὰρ δέ τοι υἷες ἐμοί, οἵ τοι πομπῆες ἔσονται
> ἐς Λακεδαίμονα δῖαν, ὅθι *ξανθὸς Μενέλαος.*


... and I don't want to plough through the whole epos to show more of them among the Greeks.
To all people in denial ... Greek tribes introduced the Blondie to old Hellas. :Big smile:

----------


## spartan owl

to angela
i have two questions
1.i have noticed that even if the laconians share dna with both the maniots and the tsakonians that have the lowest shared ancestry with the italians.
And even if in the north of laconia there is arcadia that shares shares the 3rd lowest shared ancestry with the italians, laconia non the less haves a slight higher shared ancstry with the italians than every one else.
do you think that this is caused by the existance of some small hot spot (like sparta or malvasia for example) that haves even higher shared ancestry or is it just explained by the s.d
2.the difference of tsakonians and maniots from the rest of the peloponneseans is explained by a founder effect because of the isolation or because they are more pure?
i belive that both cases are true but mainly because of the founder effect

----------


## Blanco

> so what?
> the study must be wrong?
> if you have an IQ above 100 and take a look at k=8 you just posted you will notice that slavs have higher DARK GREEN AND REDcomponent not LIGHT GREEN that is big even in andalusians.
> The dark green is a little bit bigger in france, but italians have it low as the greeks and maybe even a little bit lower.


Italians and Sicilians have more West European (light green) and around the same levels of Dark Green as Greeks or slightly lower the rest of their ancestry look similar.

----------


## Angela

> Pfft! Who's this squint-eyed hunk anyway?
> 
> Achilles was blond - Ilias I, 197-199
> 
> 
> 
> ... and Menelaos as well - Odys. III, 324-326
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, who cares? Certainly not me. I was just making an observation about the large cadre of Nordicists in this hobby. For the record I don't think that's a very good reconstruction even of the facial features, and the pigmentation is based on wall paintings. We'll see what the dna shows. He's also too brutal looking to be attractive, at least for my tastes, which are, of course, subjective. Honestly, this whole fixation on blondes within this community quite startled me when I first became interested in this topic. I come from a family half of whom are fair and half of whom are more stereotypically "Med" looking, and I never once heard it discussed as being of any moment. 

Second of all, for anyone who does care, do we really have to go through the whole litany about the precise translation of the phrases used by the ancients? People should take some courses in ancient Greek. 

Third of all, Southern Italians and Greeks have blondes among them today. Does that mean it's the prevailing phenotype among them? That's a rhetorical question.

Domenico Criscito:


The very fact that some ancient Greeks are described as "bright" haired indicates to me that it was unusual enough to be noticed. Otherwise, why bring it up if all or the majority of them were "bright" haired.

Believe me, I spent an entire semester reading Homer and all the ancient Greek writers, and the number of such descriptions is by no means overwhelming.

Ed. I don't doubt, btw, that those genes might have been brought to Greece by Indo-European", i.e. "Greek" speakers. However, those Indo-European speakers didn't get them from Yamnaya or Catacomb culture, which are the original "Indo-European" cultures. They picked them up in Europe. So, one has to be careful with terminology. The original Indo-Europeans seem to have been darker than any current Europeans, and more within the variation pattern of parts of the Near East.

----------


## Angela

> to angela
> i have two questions
> 1.i have noticed that even if the laconians share dna with both the maniots and the tsakonians that have the lowest shared ancestry with the italians.
> And even if in the north of laconia there is arcadia that shares shares the 3rd lowest shared ancestry with the italians, laconia non the less haves a slight higher shared ancstry with the italians than every one else.
> do you think that this is caused by the existance of some small hot spot (like sparta or malvasia for example) that haves even higher shared ancestry or is it just explained by the s.d
> 2.the difference of tsakonians and maniots from the rest of the peloponneseans is explained by a founder effect because of the isolation or because they are more pure?
> i belive that both cases are true but mainly because of the founder effect


I don't think there are any "pure" ethnic groups. Every group is a mixture of prior groups. If you mean do I think that the Tsakonians and the Maniots (including the Tayetos) are more similar to the ancient Greeks than other groups, I don't know. We need ancient dna to figure that out. If that turns out to be the case then it would probably indeed be because of their isolation. Isolation lets certain populations remain more "pure" in that sense. A further complication is that those two groups are different from one another. If they were both just descendants of Classical Era Greeks, why the difference?

As to Lakonia, it covers a wide stretch of the Peloponnesus. The Lakonian samples from Paschou et al were labeled South East Lakonia, so maybe only from the isthmus in the southeast? 

Click to enlarge.
Attachment 8570

On the PCA you can clearly see the separation of the Maniotes and the Tsakones from each other and from other Peloponnesians. The Lakonians are in between. A few of them are pretty close to some Tayetos samples, but the majority seem to cluster with the rest of the Peloponnesians. This may be just a north/south plus terrain difference. Are the Lakonian samples from the center north from a more accessible area?

Genetics of Pelopnnesians 2.PNG

In the body of the paper the authors say that it's the Maniots, including the ones from the Tayetos, who share the most ancestry with Sicilians and Italians. From the paper:
"The Maniots differ from all other Peloponneseans by PCA (Figure 1b) and ADMIXTURE (Figure 1e) analysis. *They also differ from mainland, island and Asia Minor Greek populations (data not shown)* and from all the other populations of Supplementary Figure 4, which have been compared *by PCA analysis, but they partially overlap with the Sicilians and the Italians.*

So, I don't see how it can be the Lakonians minus the Maniots who are the most similar, if that's what you mean. 

Table 2 seems to be based on the Admixture run, and they have divided the Peloponnesus up into the major areas, so I think Laconia here might mean all of Laconia, including Tayetos, Mani, Tsakonia etc. They have the highest similarity, 96% and Arcadia the lowest, at 85%. Of course it would have been much better had they explained the samples better for this and all their other tables and charts. I'm assuming also, that going by the Admixture run upon which they say this is based, "Italians" includes Italians and Sicilians. 

Click to enlarge.

Peloponnsians versus Italians-shared ancestry based on Admixture.jpg

As I said, the authors really left a lot of ambiguity because of poor labeling. Perhaps they should be contacted for clarification about which specific samples are included in specific graphs and charts.

----------


## ngc598

Offtopic:
Seeing that there is an aura of deadly seriousness here, I'm trying to adapt and argue as serious as possible.
[sobriety on]




> Second of all, for anyone who does care, do we really have to go through the whole litany about the precise translation of the phrases used by the ancients? People should take some courses in ancient Greek.


I know, I'm the only one who translates 'xanthos' with 'yellow'. Neither German Voss nor Anglo-Saxon Pope could imagine a blonde Greek (what a Nordicist phantasm!), so they rightfully burnished them in their epos translations. And they are so right! When you roast onions, that's called 'xanthitsein'. And we all know how it ends in the hands of qualified cooks. So we can translate 'xanthos' with 'charred'. We can prove this even more. A dun-coloured horse is called 'xanthippos' as well, and as is well known, they have black manes. So altogether we can safely translate 'xanthos' with black, even raven-black, right?




> The very fact that some ancient Greeks are described as "bright" haired indicates to me that it was unusual enough to be noticed. Otherwise, why bring it up if all or the majority of them were "bright" haired.
> 
> Believe me, I spent an entire semester reading Homer and all the ancient Greek writers, and the number of such descriptions is by no means overwhelming.


Must have been an intense one! In my 'course' I hardly worked through the Iliad in one semester. Well, slow courses for slow thinking people! 

If you have to describe Uma Thurman your first attribute would likely be that she is blond, but not because this is so excessively rare in Hollywood, but because she IS blonde. The same goes for Homer. He gave descriptions, nothing more, often even casually (the Achilles quote above). If somebody interprets more into it - everybody is entitled to have their own opinion.

Anyway, that's not even my point. It's just funny to watch the reactions whenever somebody even touches on *some blonde* classical Greek (grammatical singular, if any doubts). It's of course completely ridiculous to state that Greek tribes brought, among many other traits, some blonde colour into the Aegean region as well.
[sobriety off]

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

> Pfft! Who's this squint-eyed hunk anyway?
> 
> Achilles was blond - Ilias I, 197-199
> 
> 
> 
> ... and Menelaos as well - Odys. III, 324-326
> 
> 
> ...


The sources say xanthos, not 'blonde'. People with yellow hair are rare in Europe.

From an old article by Dienekes:



> We must also dispel the notion that _xanthos_ always refers to yellow hair, or that _purros_ refers to purely red hair. For the former, we note that Aristophanes used _xanthizein_ to describe roasting meat, which of course does not turn yellow. Additionally, Strabo uses _xanthotrichein_ and _leukotrichein_ (making hair _xanthon_ and making hair “white”) indicating that _xanthon_ was a darker shade than extremely fair hair. George Cedrenus uses it to describe the eyes of the Virgin (_xanthommaton_); eyes are rarely yellow, unless jaundiced, which seems unlikely in this case. In modern Greek it may be used to describe any color short of black [22]. In ancient Greek, according to Barbara Fowler [28] was any color short of black or dark brown, while Wace [22] believes that it may have been at most auburn. Color terms are notoriously relative; _xanthos_ may only be taken to mean the fair end of the Greek hair continuum, not blond. This impression is enhanced by the descriptions of northern European hair as _polios_ (gray, usually of old people) or _leukon_ (white) to be found in Greek literature (Diodorus Siculus, Adamantius Judaeus).

----------


## MOESAN

general answer; (I think posters who joined some facts I ignored);
if Slavs in Greece were not of slavic blood (or DNA) how to measure their demic input? -
if the first waves of Slavs had distinctive traits inherited from their cradle, some visible % of their input would be seen even if they were not pure when reaching Greece - I'm tempted to think the Slaves which got down to Greece did it rather through central Balkans, the rivers net, and they did not pass across Dalmatia/W-Balkans; so they would have had some DNA visible input even in their journey end - 
the recent Greeks show/shew physically regional differences marked enough (more concerning bones than pigmentation as a whole) and these differences seem deeply rooted in past, so even if there have been displaced pops, they did not erase at all the ancient differences in pops making - 
I'm sure Greeks had Slav "blood" (at diverse levels according to regions), and as an average this is visible on PCA's (I know PCA's are not the best tools but...) - 
I find some reactions on fora lack of distance to History and are inadapted to serious cool discussion.

----------


## MarkoZ

I guess the problem isn't the existence of blondes among the ancient Greeks or even their arrival with the IE language (an idea that I find doubtful considering that there were strongly depigmented individuals in Neolithic Hungary already), but the juxtaposition of dark Pelasgians and blond Dorians. The Homeric heroes would have been either Pelasgians themselves or their immediate neighbours, but definitely pre-Dorian.

Regarding the relationship of looks, genes and language in the ancient Mediterranean there is another pertinent example: the Tyrrhenian Etruscans who were related to the Lemnian 'Pelasgians' look like Iberians (i. e. the autosomally northernmost Mediterraneans) with a Finnish pull in a PCA. In light of their genetic background and their Urnfield material culture it is perhaps noteworthy that Etruscan Frescoes often feature very blond individuals.

The takeaway is that the association of depigmentation, Indo-European languages and northern invasions in the Mediterranean doesn't really hold, even with the paucity of samples from southern Europe.

----------


## Yetos

> Pfft! Who's this squint-eyed hunk anyway?
> 
> Achilles was blond - Ilias I, 197-199
> 
> 
> 
> ... and Menelaos as well - Odys. III, 324-326
> 
> 
> ...



what colour is this?




what is this?





AND WHAT IS THIS?






*ΞΑΝΘΟΣ XANTHOS DOES NOT MEAN BLOND,

MAKEDONIANS HAD A MONTH CALLED XANTHOS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...onian_calendar
COULD A MONTH BE BLOND? NO

then ?
Xanthos according Makedonian is the colour of weapons (iron, after removal of rust) after the removal of rust 

the word also exist in ancient Iranian meaning Black iron
ΑKSEINOS PONTOS = black sea, 

the removal or rust on steel leaves a light brown colour,
at begining March Makedonians repair their weapons 
about today 23 february to spring equinox,
also Xanthos was the extra month every 19 years
Xanthos embolimos


All studies about Greek Dna from palaiolithic till known show that blond was a very small % considering the major brown and secondary black (κυανουν =Blue black)


these are colours of Xanthos
*




Later by Christians as Xanthos become the april

----------


## Blanco

Blondism is relatively a recent trait among Europeans and some study suggested sexual based growth as this mutation appeared among a few individuals and those women with blonde hair were viewed as sexually appealing so this had lead to a good chance for blonde hair DNA carriers to remain. 

In ancient Greece dark hair and skin was viewed as a masculine characteristic because darker skinned individuals likely have higher testosterone, while femininity is often associated with light features (consider the whole Asian region which has a culture of skin lightening among women) Men with fair skin likely have less testosterone or just depigmented.
Men are naturally a bit darker pigmented than women.

----------


## Tomenable

In 1438-1439 Byzantine traveller -* Lascaris Cananus* - visited the area of Lübeck (Λούπηκ) and wrote that the area near Lübeck was called Slavonia (Σθλαβουνία) and that its inhabitants - Wends - spoke a very similar language as Zygiotai (Ζυγιῶται), also known as Melingoi, who lived near the Taygetos Mountains. That language was of course Slavic.

So even in 1438-1439 (!) Slavic was still spoken in some parts of the Peloponnesus.

Taygetos Mountains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taygetus

It was in the late 1400s or 1500s when the last Peloponnesian Slavs were Hellenized.

==============

Comments from *Eurogenes*: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...tion-bias.html

"The Slavs in Greece" thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavs-in-Greece

Interesting read, "The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries":

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

----------


## Angela

@ngc598,
It's rarely a good idea to make comments about the "tone" of certain discussions when you've only been around for two months, unless, of course, you're one of our "cloaked" members.

Some of us who have been here for six years and more have had a belly full of nordicist claptrap about the holiness of the blonde, blue-eyed phenotype, how all the accomplishments of the classical Greek and Roman civilizations were the output of Swedes and Germans in disguise and on and on. One dope on dna-forums claimed the Sumerians, the Egyptian pharoahs, you name it, were all Nordics. 

That ideology is the bread and butter of the white nationalist groups of eastern Europe, ironically enough.

We still have a "White God" with his own blog who some people still take seriously. A White Nationalist, anti-Semite hosts a big blog on genetics, and you think that getting annoyed with manifestations of it is over the top or a subject for humor? We'll have to agree to disagree.

Oh, it was a year long: one semester Homer, second semester Greek drama and comedy, but unfortunately not in ancient Greek. I wasn't the Classics scholar; that was my husband.

@Moesan,
Very true, and very diplomatically said.

@Yetos,
A lot of the physical descriptions of ancient people are problematic. The Russians were all supposedly "red-haired", my Ligures were all "red-haired". Where did they all go? They obviously meant something different by these terms than the way they are translated. 

What, for example, is a wine-dark sea?

Is this it?
https://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/s...uda-greece.jpg


Why does Homer describe honey and a nightingale as "chloros"? 

Why is Hector's hair kyanos?

Euripides describes blood and tears as chloros too. 

This isn't all just poetic license. The words had other meanings. Color meant more to them than something on the color scale. What they meant sometimes was something related to color, but not color itself or color by itself.

It's very hard to make sense of it. That's why we need ancient dna. It's immaterial to me how it comes out. However, as I said above, if the Greek speakers brought fair hair and eyes to Greece they didn't get it from Yamnaya or Catacomb culture.

----------


## Yetos

@ Tomenable

I already about them at post #22 
the last Slavic that spoken at peloponese possibly was at Nezera village,
and even with accuracy certain areas that they devastate are known.

----------


## Yetos

@ Angela

Kyanos = Blue 
but in hair is the deep black, (blue-black)

----------


## Nik

@MarkoZ 

Did u assume that I'm a Nordicist just because I used the word Pelasgian, actually "Pelasgian"? 

I do agree with the idea that the Pre-IE people had many fair features among them already. I always base my conclusions on personal experience and try to find modern parallels. For instance in this case I use North Albanians as an example because it's the group I'm most familiar with, and I noticed that the isolated regions/clans that are almost 100% E-V13 + J2b are also coincidentally the tallest, higher incidence of light eyes (>80% not brown) and of predominantly Dinaric. 

And I know it's the same case in the mountainous areas of Greece as I've seen myself Epirus, Acarnania and a bit Aetolia. 

Humans were diverse enough to not be that easily influenced in terms of physical traits.

With regards to the Slavs, many Bulgarians were also invited by the Venetians to settle in Peloponnese, and it is statistically known that the Venetians doubled its population within 10 years, except for Mani. Perhaps that's why Mani shows a slightly different admixture as it retained more older "Peloponnesian genes" while the rest was populated by migrants from all over Greece, Crete, Aegean, Bulgaria, and even Asia Minor.

----------


## Tomenable

> if the Greek speakers brought fair hair and eyes to Greece they didn't get it from Yamnaya or Catacomb culture.


About 10% of Yamnaya people had blond hair (based on their genetic variants). Ask FireHaired, he compiled this data. Light eyes were also not so rare among them. If later blond hair became more frequent due to selection, then it could start from Yamanaya, because they already had it at low frequencies. Unlike for example Remedello people, who had 0% of blond hair.

----------


## MOESAN

> I guess the problem isn't the existence of blondes among the ancient Greeks or even their arrival with the IE language (an idea that I find doubtful considering that there were strongly depigmented individuals in Neolithic Hungary already), but the juxtaposition of dark Pelasgians and blond Dorians. The Homeric heroes would have been either Pelasgians themselves or their immediate neighbours, but definitely pre-Dorian.
> 
> Regarding the relationship of looks, genes and language in the ancient Mediterranean there is another pertinent example: the Tyrrhenian Etruscans who were related to the Lemnian 'Pelasgians' look like Iberians (i. e. the autosomally northernmost Mediterraneans) with a Finnish pull in a PCA. In light of their genetic background and their Urnfield material culture it is perhaps noteworthy that Etruscan Frescoes often feature very blond individuals.
> 
> The takeaway is that the association of depigmentation, Indo-European languages and northern invasions in the Mediterranean doesn't really hold, even with the paucity of samples from southern Europe.


Today, pigmentation is not my very center of interest if it was before.
But, Markoz, some people have eyes :
Overdepigmentation is unevenly distributed in Europe and in modern times tied for the most to historical moves and osmosis, it’s not a general statement but a region by region, almost a valley by valley precise story, and later modifications are the result of modern life and levelling osmosis in metropoles and industrial regions ; in late history it is not linked to climate, spite surely the selection of the first diverse depigmenting mutation is linked for a big part to climate (but not only, i think). So the 20th Cy overdepigmentation distributions cannot be simplisticly linked to North-South or East-West gradiants. And, no, the most of the blonds people in Southern Europe are not the result of everpresent depigmented individuals, not as a whole, even if someones can be this. Sure Sardinians have received more recent Near-Eastern DNA but as a whole they seem a rather dominantly Neolithical farmers descent and they are very rarely depigmented in the traditional parts of the island. Same for other southern pops were northerners or northeasterners never became dominant. 
Some overdepigmentation mutations surely occurred among ‘danubian-mediter’ pop of Anatolian pop (or more and more in some thoughts : a Southeastern-Anatolian pop) or North the Caucasus but the compilation of diverses mutations seems having prospered around South-East Baltic lands, IMO ; here a climatic vector of selection could be imagined. I long to auDNA big samples of ancient pops between Baltic and Ural, to know the exact beginning date of the super-depigmentation increase.


Blond Dorians ? Surely not ; less rare blonds among them ? More credible. 
To people who doubt, look at rather serious pigmentations maps compared to mountainous blocks and rivers nets, look at Spain, Italy (N-S, yes, but pockets with specific history), Normandy, Brittany (in their subregions), France as a whole, ex-Yugoslavia : mountains opposed to great rivers, the Black Sea banks in Romania and Bulgaria, Flanders/Wallonia, Wales/East Anglia and so on everywhere ; historic invasions, colonizations, before recent general tendancy to osmosis in metropolis and industrial regions, and political deportations in East Europe. I can give more than an example.
I speak here of LBA and later pops moves, I've no theory to date concerning PIE people because I have not enough clues to date, no cristal bowl.


To answer other forumers. Please, let's re-read serious papers and ALSO let's put our brains and good sense at work; pigmentation of skin between males and females of SAME groups vary for the most for the visage more than for the body (among Europoids); among some females, it's the fatness of skin which makes it a bit lighter - I'm not sure there is a direct link to testosterone, mybe rather indirect,(I 've to re-read my too here!)-
For me, overdepigmentation increase began before Yamna time (PIE or not) and not so close to Caucasus, I don't believe it can be strictly linked to them; all right, it is not proved today.
Good discussion lads (and ladies!)

----------


## MOESAN

ERRATA: Hell, I made a mistake!
in my post I was speaking of Neolithic Anatolians and Southeastern: my aim was to speak of a rather ancient Southeastern-Europe and West-Anatolian ancient common pop, idea which is running on since some time.

----------


## MOESAN

> @ngc598,
> It's rarely a good idea to make comments about the "tone" of certain discussions when you've only been around for two months, unless, of course, you're one of our "cloaked" members.
> 
> 
> This isn't all just poetic license. The words had other meanings. Color meant more to them than something on the color scale. What they meant sometimes was something related to color, but not color itself or color by itself.
> 
> It's very hard to make sense of it. That's why we need ancient dna. It's immaterial to me how it comes out. However, as I said above, if the Greek speakers brought fair hair and eyes to Greece they didn't get it from Yamnaya or Catacomb culture.


I cannot resist, sorry:
in french a person "rit jaune" (is laughing yellow), in breton "ema o c'hoarzhin glas" (is laughing 'blue', or 'plant green' or 'pale gree grey blue' = blemish)
= 'to force a laugh' 
- breton: 'du gant an naon' (black with hunger) = almost starving -

----------


## Angela

> About 10% of Yamnaya people had blond hair (based on their genetic variants). Ask FireHaired, he compiled this data. Light eyes were also not so rare among them. If later blond hair became more frequent due to selection, then it could start from Yamanaya, because they already had it at low frequencies. Unlike for example Remedello people, who had 0% of blond hair.


I knew you'd show up. 

Read:
Iain Mathiesen et al
http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html

Olivia Wlde et al
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.full

Believe what you want, as you undoubtedly will, but a few depigmentation snps here and there don't equal people having blonde hair. You need to have a whole panoply of them.




> Moesan: I cannot resist, sorry:
> in french a person "rit jaune" (is laughing yellow), in breton "ema o c'hoarzhin glas" (is laughing 'blue', or 'plant green' or 'pale gree grey blue' = blemish)
> = 'to force a laugh' 
> - breton: 'du gant an naon' (black with hunger) = almost starving -


I love it. :)

----------


## MarkoZ

> @MarkoZ 
> 
> Did u assume that I'm a Nordicist just because I used the word Pelasgian, actually "Pelasgian"? 
> 
> I do agree with the idea that the Pre-IE people had many fair features among them already. I always base my conclusions on personal experience and try to find modern parallels. For instance in this case I use North Albanians as an example because it's the group I'm most familiar with, and I noticed that the isolated regions/clans that are almost 100% E-V13 + J2b are also coincidentally the tallest, higher incidence of light eyes (>80% not brown) and of predominantly Dinaric. 
> 
> And I know it's the same case in the mountainous areas of Greece as I've seen myself Epirus, Acarnania and a bit Aetolia. 
> 
> Humans were diverse enough to not be that easily influenced in terms of physical traits.
> ...


No worries, I didn't mean to imply anything about you personally. It's just that such thinking has permeated the discourse for more than a century to the point that much of it has acquired the status of conventional wisdom. Hardly surprising considering that many of the most influential 'scholars' in the field up until very recently have been very unsavoury figures to say the least. The discourse surrounding ancient Greece is especially poisonous due to continuous attempts by rightist Europeans to claim it as theirs, presumably because of embarrassment with their own past.

As for light pigmentation, I find it difficult to see any pattern related to language or Y-DNA except at a regional level. I guess if one dug into the allelic background of the associated variants one would find that the extreme levels of light pigmentation in parts of Europe are the results of recent founder effects with very deep roots in the Neolithic.

----------


## Tomenable

> but a few depigmentation snps here and there don't equal people having blonde hair


But in Neolithic Southern Europe the amount of light hair SNPs was actually not even a few, but big fat *zero*.

If Iberians, Italians or Greeks have some blonde-haired people among them, this is all *Post-Neolithic input*. Also Indo-Europeans did not come to Southern Europe directly from Yamnaya. They came from Central Europe. So you should not look at Yamnaya pigmentation, but at pigmentation of Bronze Age Central Europeans (who were just 50-70% Yamnaya-derived).

Corded Ware and Central European Bell Beaker Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic people were lighter than Yamnaya.




> I guess if one dug into the allelic background of the associated variants one would find that the extreme levels of light pigmentation in parts of Europe are the results of recent founder effects *with very deep roots in the Neolithic.*


*Neolithic?* Are you still in 2014 when they published Loschbour WHG and declared that all European hunters were dark? In the Current Year we already know that *Mesolithic* Eastern Europeans from Latvia to Ukraine were depigmented.

----------


## Angela

> But in Neolithic Southern Europe the amount of light hair SNPs was actually not even a few, but big fat *zero*.
> 
> If Iberians, Italians or Greeks have some blonde-haired people among them, this is all *Post-Neolithic input*.


There's a good possibility that's true. Certainly, the Iberian Neolithic and even MN was darker than even the Anatolian Neolithic. That may be because they had more admixture with the darker WHG than did the people of the early Central European Neolithic, but that's just conjecture. 

We have a handful for Greece. 

I can't say much of anything about Italy because the only autosomal ancient dna we have is a few samples from Remedello and Otzi, who was fair skinned but brown haired and eyed, probably like me. 

However, in the Neolithic in Hungary we do have blonde, blue eyed, fair skinned people. So, did they exist in Southern Europe as well by the MN, or was it Bronze Age or later and brought by people who had traveled down through Central Europe in the Bronze Age? I'd say probably Bronze Age and later, but we'll have to wait and see. 

See Gamba et al, 2014 for the first example, although subsequent papers found more. This was by no means an isolated occurrence.
http://www.nature.com/article-assets...mms6257-f3.jpg



We've been digressing from the topic of the paper for quite a while, so perhaps we should end it here. These are questions which ancient dna will answer.

----------


## MarkoZ

> But in Neolithic Southern Europe the amount of light hair SNPs was actually not even a few, but big fat *zero*.
> 
> If Iberians, Italians or Greeks have some blonde-haired people among them, this is all *Post-Neolithic input*. Also Indo-Europeans did not come to Southern Europe directly from Yamnaya. They came from Central Europe. So you should not look at Yamnaya pigmentation, but at pigmentation of Bronze Age Central Europeans (who were just 50-70% Yamnaya-derived).
> 
> Corded Ware and Central European Bell Beaker Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic people were lighter than Yamnaya.
> 
> *Neolithic?* Are you still in 2014 when they published Loschbour WHG and declared that all European hunters were dark? In the Current Year we already know that *Mesolithic* Eastern Europeans from Latvia to Ukraine were depigmented.


Though unless I'm greatly underestimating their proficiency at hunting and gathering, these cannot be at the root of modern levels of depigmentation.

The question where depigmentation variants evolved in the first place is another thing altogether.

----------


## Yetos

> @MarkoZ 
> 
> Did u assume that I'm a Nordicist just because I used the word Pelasgian, actually "Pelasgian"? 
> 
> I do agree with the idea that the Pre-IE people had many fair features among them already. I always base my conclusions on personal experience and try to find modern parallels. For instance in this case I use North Albanians as an example because it's the group I'm most familiar with, and I noticed that the isolated regions/clans that are almost 100% E-V13 + J2b are also coincidentally the tallest, higher incidence of light eyes (>80% not brown) and of predominantly Dinaric. 
> 
> And I know it's the same case in the mountainous areas of Greece as I've seen myself Epirus, Acarnania and a bit Aetolia. 
> 
> Humans were diverse enough to not be that easily influenced in terms of physical traits.
> ...



MaybeBlondandlighteyesenterAlbanian
Damn space bar problem

Maybe Blondism and light eyes enter Albanian tribes from female genes,
If I remember correct Albania shows enough Slavic mtDNA,
and only, Slavic vocabulary is enough in Albanian language,
Ithink 3rd after Romano-Latin and Greek.


*@ TO ALL FORUMERS*
anyway a blond girl is something exotic for a Med guy, 
*if Ancient Greeks were Blonds or had such genes, do you believe they turn brown and black hair by the etrance of Slavs and Bulgarians? as you claim?
*IF I FOLLOW FALLMAYER THEN MODERN GREEKS SHOULD BE BLOND at LEAST THE % of BLONDISM IN SLAVS CORRECT? ARE THEY?
is n't this an *ATOPON*

If I remember correct Slavs are more (at an average lvl) blonds than Modern Greeks,
So if population changed as you said, Blondism should be higher in Greece by Slavic entrance, is it?
but still is very low in Greece,

and because I tired with this 
it is in Greek by the work of AUTH Pr Triantafilidis 
University of CRETE
University of Pavia Italy
Search Center of Moscow
Stanford University 
Dr J Stamatoyannopoulos 
etc 

Με την ανάλυση του μιτοχονδριακού DNA διαπιστώθηκε9 ότι τα εξετασθέντα άτομα διακρίνονται σε 21 ομάδες (απλότυπους) και εκτιμήθηκε ξέχωρα για κάθε μία η ηλικία δημιουργίας της, στην Εγγύς Ανατολή και την Ευρώπη. Με βάση μαθηματικούς υπολογισμούς, εκτιμήθηκε ότι το DNA των Ελλήνων έχει την ακόλουθη προέλευση: 8% τα πρόσφατα χρόνια (περίπου 3.000 χρόνια από σήμερα), 20% κατά τη νεολιθική εποχή (9.000-3.000), 44% κατά την τελευταία άνω παλαιολιθική εποχή (14.500-9.000), 14,5% κατά τη μέση άνω παλαιολιθική εποχή (26.000 – 14.500 χρόνια) και ένα ποσοστό 11% κατά την αρχική άνω παλαιολιθική εποχή (45.500 –26.000).


SO by Mother part Greeks are > 75% same withe ones before 3100 BC
as for male part the search of Stanford if remember correct gives 2/3 epipalaiolithic and previous era and only 1/5 IE era

more 
J2a1h-M319 in Crete is the oldest found 
*The lack of J2b-M12 at Bosporos shows the maritime root entrance of this gene* 
lack of V-13 and M78 before iron age

By DUTH (Paschou) at a reasearch started at 2014 and the first symposium-congres about palaiolithic neolithic Greece
we know they dedected I1 presence and other genes, in palaiolithic Makedonia,
which keeps the epipaliolithic era till iron age, 

So FALLMAYER THEORY
BLACK ATHENA THEORY 
etc all collapse 


INFACT The IE Theory of horse riders and chariots etc which fits and is tied with IE above Istros to Central North and West Europe
does not fit in case of Greece, here fits more the C Renfrew theory of Neolithic Farmers

----------


## oreo_cookie

> "The Maniots differ from all other Peloponneseans by PCA (Figure 1b) and ADMIXTURE (Figure 1e) analysis. *They also differ from mainland, island and Asia Minor Greek populations (data not shown)* and from all the other populations of Supplementary Figure 4, which have been compared *by PCA analysis, but they partially overlap with the Sicilians and the Italians.*



Is this saying that the Maniots are so different from all populations studied, so isolated, and the ONLY people they overlap with are Sicilians? Not even other Greeks? I want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly.

----------


## Hauteville

This is the supplementary figure 4, the partially overlap is with Sicilians and East/West Tayetos. I've seen Mani group isolated but a couple of them overlap with the Sicilian group (in green).

free image upload

----------


## Angela

> This is the supplementary figure 4, the partially overlap is with Sicilians and East/West Tayetos. I've seen Mani group isolated but a couple of them overlap with the Sicilian group (in green).
> 
> free image upload


Deep Mani was apparently even more isolated that the other populations. 

It's also very important not to overinterpret PCAs. If you drill down deep enough you can get a cline in your own family.

----------


## oreo_cookie

What I mean is, if the only populations overlapping with "Deep Mani" were the other people in the far south Peloponnese and Sicilians, but not Anatolian Greeks, islanders, Cypriots, etc. then it means on a chart with all of these, the Maniots would not cluster with anyone else really.

----------


## Blanco

I start to think that gedmatch calculators were made for diaspora Jews and New Worlders, because more professional studies using more populations with accurate sources tend to display different population distances, on gedmatch most calculators can't differentiate a Jewish from a Greek or Cypriot yet these populations have no historical connections nor genetic overlap.

----------


## Angela

> What I mean is, if the only populations overlapping with "Deep Mani" were the other people in the far south Peloponnese and Sicilians, but not Anatolian Greeks, lslanders, Cypriots, etc. then it means on a chart with all of these, the Maniots would not cluster with anyone else really.


I don't understand what you're trying to get at.

If you're referring to the quote I posted from the paper, you're distorting it. What it says is the following: 

_"__The Maniots differ from all other Peloponneseans by PCA (_Figure 1b_) and ADMIXTURE (_Figure 1e_) analysis. They also differ from mainland, island and Asia Minor Greek populations (data not shown) and from all the other populations of_ Supplementary Figure 4_, which have been compared by PCA analysis, but they partially overlap with the Sicilians and the Italians."

_This is a sometimes confusingly worded paper, but I don't see anything there that says the overlap is only with Sicilians and Southern Italians. It says "Sicilians and Italians". Yet, the PCA includes Italians and I don't see any overlap, so they may be referring to other things they see in the results in Admixture or that weren't published. It also doesn't separate out Southern Italians. 

As to the PCA, Deep Mani is very isolated geographically from other areas in the Peloponnesus, so these people are going to have a good amount of drift, which you can see because there's a cluster of them to the right. The only overlap of Sicilians with Deep Mani is with two outlier samples. The overlap is with East Tayetos, who are also Maniotes, but less isolated, from my understanding. If that's wrong I hope some of our Greek members will correct the record. 

Also, where do you get that the people of Deep Mani overlap with people of the "far south Peloponnesus"? I assume that by the latter you mean the SE Laconia sample already used in Paschou et al. This paper, to which Paschou is a contributor, specifically states that the Laconian samples are actually closer to the rest of the Peloponnesus samples. 

Please read the appropriate posts upthread.

_The people of the Peloponnesus as a whole are very similar to Italians, and particularly to Sicilians. That's something I've been telling you for years, for all the good it did me. 

You also really have to stop overinterpreting PCA results. They are only one tool, and not the best. Also, check which samples are being used, and try to look at it as objectively as you can, and not always with an eye to saving your pet theories._

----------


## oreo_cookie

My point was those isolated Maniots are not similar to Aegean islanders or Anatolian Greeks, which means they aren't isolated due to inflated West Asian affinity or anything. They must be isolated for another reason, such as inbreeding or lack of outside influence which caused genetic drift away from every other population.

----------


## spartan owl

_Belarusians_
_Russians_
_Polish_
_Ukrainians_
_French_
_Italians_
_Basque_
_Andalusians_

Deep Mani
0.7 (0.1)
1.6 (0.7)
0.9 (0.4)
1.0 (0.3)
6.4 (3.5)
25.3 (21.7)
0.3 (0.2)
7.6 (5.1)

West Tayetos
4.9 (5.1)
8.6 (6.9)
6.8 (5.4)
6.5 (5.7)
16.4 (12.7)
41.5 (32.5)
0.6 (0.5)
15.2 (11.1)

East Tayetos
5.7 (3.4)
10.9 (4.0)
7.9 (3.7)
8.0 (3.7)
27.7 (4.8)
58.0 (20.7)
2.0 (1.4)
27.0 (4.3)

North Tsakonia
3.9 (1.7)
8.2 (2.1)
5.0 (2.2)
6.0 (2.2)
26.7 (3.5)
51.2 (4.6)
1.5 (1.1)
26.9 (3.5)

South Tsakonia
0.2 (0.0)
0.9 (0.4)
0.4 (0.1)
0.6 (0.2)
4.1 (2.9)
14.2 (11.0)
0.2 (0.1)
5.3 (3.8)


a The first number for each pair of populations indicates the average shared ancestry for values of _K_ between 4 and 8, while the number in parenthesis indicates the s.d.




_Belarusians_
_Russians_
_Polish_
_Ukrainians_
_French_
_Italians_
_Basque_
_Andalusians_

Argolis
5.4 (1.5)
12.2 (1.2)
5.8 (0.8)
6.8 (1.1)
39.1 (19.2)
94.7 (4.8)
2.8 (1.4)
60.5 (5.9)

Corinthia
5.9 (1.7)
13.0 (1.3)
6.3 (1)
7.5 (1.3)
41.2 (18.5)
94.9 (4.0)
3.1 (1.7)
62.0 (5.9)

Achaea
6.5 (1.7)
13.8 (1.1)
7.0 (0.8)
8.1 (1.1)
41.4 (18.4)
94.8 (4.0)
2.7 (1.4)
61.3 (5.8)

Arcadia
5.3 (1.8)
10.9 (2.4)
5.2 (1.2)
6.2 (1.5)
39.1 (18.2)
85.4 (14.6)
2.4 (1.4)
53.8 (9.1)

Elis
6.1 (1.3)
13.1 (1.2)
6.5 (0.8)
7.6 (1.1)
41.4 (18.3)
95.0 (3.3)
3.3 (1.7)
61.6 (5.6)

Messenia
6.7 (1.7)
14.4 (1.2)
7.3 (0.9)
8.5 (1.2)
42.6 (18.4)
95.2 (4.0)
2.7 (1.3)
61.8 (5.7)

Laconia
4.8 (1.2)
11.4 (1.5)
5.2 (0.9)
6.4 (1.1)
41.1 (14.6)
96.1 (2.3)
2.3 (1.4)
59.8 (5.6)




Population
N
Proportion of Pairs with IBD2
Mean (SD) Length (cM)3
Mean Pairwise IBD (cM)4

*IBD Shared With Deep Mani (n=22)1*

Achaea
21
44.2%
3.0 (1.1)
1.8

Arcadia
13
57.3%
3.0 (1.1)
2.6

Argolis
16
38.4%
3.1 (1.2)
1.8

Corinthia
16
43.2%
3.0 (1.3)
1.8

East Tayetos
23
94.3%
3.7 (1.9)
35.2

Elis
23
53.0%
3.2 (1.3)
2.7

Laconia
26
73.8%
3.4 (1.5)
11.3

Messenia
21
54.1%
3.2 (1.2)
2.8

Northern Tsakonia
9
65.2%
3.2 (1.3)
3.9

Southern Tsakonia
15
69.1%
3.2 (1.4)
4.2

West Tayetos
24
96.2%
3.6 (1.8)
36.9

*IBD Shared With Southern Tsakonia (n=15)1*

Achaea
21
60.0%
3.2 (1.3)
3.3

Arcadia
13
78.5%
3.4 (1.5)
5.1

Argolis
16
65.8%
3.4 (1.6)
4.2

Corinthia
16
70.4%
3.1 (1.2)
3.5

Deep Mani
22
69.1%
3.2 (1.4)
4.2

East Tayetos
23
89.0%
3.2 (1.4)
7.0

Elis
23
64.1%
3.2 (1.2)
3.2

Laconia
26
88.0%
3.5 (2.0)
9.7

Messenia
21
64.4%
3.2 (1.3)
3.5

Northern Tsakonia
9
100.0%
4.4 (2.7)
94.1

----------


## Angela

> My point was those isolated Maniots are not similar to Aegean islanders or Anatolian Greeks, which means they aren't isolated due to inflated West Asian affinity or anything. They must be isolated for another reason, such as inbreeding or lack of outside influence which caused genetic drift away from every other population.


The Maniotes as a whole, including East and West Tayetos, don't have "inflated" West Asian ancestry. They certainly do have "Caucasus" ancestry, and at levels extremely similar to Sicilians, which I've also tried to explain to you for years. High levels of "Caucasus" ancestry runs all through the Balkans as well. 

What I find rather amusing about all of this is that the people of the Tayetos, whom Fallermayer was so convinced were Slavs, should be so "Sicilian like". :)

----------


## Tomenable

> if Ancient Greeks were Blonds or had such genes, do you believe they turn brown and black hair by the etrance of Slavs


Of course not. 

Rather due to gene flow from Non-European parts of the Hellenistic world into Greece proper:

http://www.theopavlidis.com/MidEast/part10.htm




> Population Peaks and Modern Heritage
> 
> Modern Greeks like to emphasize their descent from Greeks of the classical era. A more realistic lineage is from Greeks of the Hellenistic era when the number of people identifying themselves as Greeks reached its peak. The number stayed high till the Arab conquest of the 7th century CE. That event started a series of steep declines, in particular, those that followed the Seljuk and Ottoman Turk conquests with conversions to Islam and adoption of other languages [SV71]. In the west the Greek population decline came as southern Italy and Sicily became part of Italian kingdoms with Greeks adopting both the western version of Christianity and the Italian language (although Greek was spoken in some villages till the 20th century). Therefore descendants of the Hellenistic period Greeks could be found not only in Greece but also in Italy, Turkey, Syria, Egypt, and other parts of the Middle East and Northern Africa. *Because of population movements inhabitants of modern Greece descend not only from the Greeks of the classical era but also from Greeks of the largest area of the Hellenistic influence.*
> 
> We may also ask what happened to the ancient people of Anatolia such as the Hittites, the Phrygians, and the Lydians who all had kingdoms during the 2000BCE to 500BCE period. Croesus (of extraordinary wealth fame) was the last king of Lydia. Gordias (of Gordian knot fame) and Midas (of the golden touch fame) were legendary kings of Phrygia. They all came under Persian rule around 500BCE and under Greek rule two hundred years later. Their descendants almost certainly ended up as Greek speaking subjects of the Hellenistic kingdoms.

----------


## Angela

> Of course not. 
> 
> Rather due to gene flow from Non-European parts of the Hellenistic world into Greece proper:
> 
> http://www.theopavlidis.com/MidEast/part10.htm


Try using data, not sheer conjecture to support your own agenda.

----------


## Tomenable

> Try using data, not sheer conjecture to support your own agenda.


From Anthrogenica (not sure which of these two users is closer to the truth) about 23andMe results of Greeks:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post144047

Note that 23andMe does not tell us about very deep ancestry, only about ancestry from the Common Era (so if someone gets any Non-European admixtures in 23andMe, it must be due to gene flow into Europe during post-Hellenistic times):




> Greeks are not a homogeneous ethnicity, *according to 23andMe autosomally they range from 100% European for the Continental Greeks through considerable percent Middle East in West Anatolia and some of the island, to 100% Middle East for Cyprus and Pontic Greeks from South East Black Sea coast.*
> 
> Of course only Balkan Greeks have potentially Slavic and Albanian admixture and some of it is very recent. *Those further East are just Hellenised Anatolians and other non European ethnicities.*
> 
> *However most of the non converted Eastern Greeks were expelled from Anatolia and now a big mix up is going on in Greece, which eventually will homogenise the population to half European, half Anatolian.*





> *Nice propaganda right there. Cypriots come out as 50% Near East 50% European.* As for Anatolian Greeks, they don't even differ from islanders if you want to go by 23andme. *They come out as 75%+ European*, with the exception of* Pontic/Black Sea Greeks who show up as fully Near Eastern.*
> 
> The mainlanders have already mixed with the refugees from Asia Minor since 1920, and* their Near East score ranges from 0 to 15%.*


In any case, it is obvious that Greeks have a lot of recent, post-Hellenistic (dating back to Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times) Near Eastern admixture. And we still don't know how much of mixing had been taking place in Hellenistic times.

23andMe simply does not go so far back into the past.

The only way to find out is to examine aDNA from Classical Greece and other periods.

----------


## Tomenable

All those Greek soldiers who married Persian women during Alexander's invasion of Persia.

Do you think that all of those soldiers stayed in Asia instead of coming back to Greece ???

----------


## spartan owl

what we see here in my opininon is that maniots and tsakones have a very unique genome because of their isolation.In fact deep mani is more isolated than east and west taygetos maniots.
We also see that laconias share a big part of their genome with both of them, and we also see that (apart from the other laconians) tsakonians and maniots are the closest related between them rather than their neighbouring messenian and arcadian respectively.Even if west taygetos is located in messenia and tsakones are geograpicaly arcadians. Yes tsakonia is in arcadia not laconia but linguisticaly and as we see in the research also geneticaly they are laconians.
So the maniots because of their isolation, probably because of some kind of a founder effect share less dna to the italians than "normal" peloponneseans
The most "italians" amongst the peloponneseans are the laconians but all the peloponneseans share a high percentage of their dna with the italians (probaly higher than the asia minor populations)

----------


## MarkoZ

Not that I care about the 'Europeanness' of assorted populations, but for a population with significant Asian influx modern Greeks are nestled a bit too neatly between the neighbouring Albanians and Western Anatolians. Was there a replacement in Albania as well?

Also what do we make of the fact that the Maniotes of all, in whom historians and anthropologists saw a remnant tribe of the Dorians due to their appearances & alleged warrior ethos, look to be the most Caucasus-Iranian shifted of the tested populations, with the lowest affinity to present North Europeans? The former affinity exists at elevated levels as far north and west as Croatia and perhaps beyond, so it cannot be considered recent.

----------


## Blanco

> All those Greek soldiers who married Persian women during Alexander's invasion of Persia.
> 
> Do you think that all of those soldiers stayed in Asia instead of coming back to Greece ???


Admixture events that happened 2000 years ago likely have little to no effect on modern population. If someone was 1/2 Persian living in Sparta then his descendants will likely be around 1/1024th Persian or so. Greece due to geography was close to Asia Minor so they received some recent Anatolian admixture but not enough to make their genome West Asian and even those populations were related to Hellenes, aka not Turks but Luwinians, Hittites, Pre Indo European Mediterraneans.

----------


## Angela

> From Anthrogenica (not sure which of these two users is closer to the truth) about 23andMe results of Greeks:
> 
> http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post144047
> 
> Note that 23andMe does not tell us about very deep ancestry, only about ancestry from the Common Era (so if someone gets any Non-European admixtures in 23andMe, it must be due to gene flow into Europe during post-Hellenistic times):
> 
> 
> 
> In any case, *it is obvious that Greeks have a lot of recent, post-Hellenistic (dating back to Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times) Near Eastern admixture.* And we still don't know how much of mixing had been taking place in Hellenistic times.
> ...


If you really believe the bolded statement, then why is it *OBVIOUS* that there was this admixture, and it was highly significant? Why are you insisting over and over again on your agenda driven conclusions, and conclusions not even based on academic papers, but on direct to consumer genomics which are highly questionable, and gedmatch calculator results which are even more questionable.

The genetic profile of anyone tested by 23andme or any other genomic testing outfit is the product of thousands and tens of thousands of years of admixture. The claim that it only covers the last 500 years is nonsense. There is no time limit on these admixtures. If that were the case, we would have to believe that the "Middle Eastern" in Southern Italians, which by the definition of 23andme itself means Anatolian, Iranian, and Caucasus, arrived in Southern Italy in the *1500s.* That's the Renaissance, for crying out loud. People were obsessively writing, documenting etc. You think they wouldn't have noticed a population transfer from Turkey or Iran massive enough to account for 15-20% of the genome of some Southern Italians? 

When you have to turn to 23andme to support your position you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

You might to want to read this blog post from Razib Khan about everything that's wrong with public genomic testing in terms of ancestry, and about how Admixture analysis can be skewed by population choice, whether deliberate or not.
http://nofe.me/razib/WordPress/2017/...medium=twitter

Also, and this is the last time I'm going to repeat it: the people tested by these researchers have all four grandparents from the labeled villages back to *1860-1880*. All those exchanges with people from the Pontos region, the Islands, and Anatolia discussed by "Eastara" are* IRRELEVANT because they took place after the turn of the century.* What is so difficult to understand about this concept?

You have produced absolutely no data showing large numbers of "Ottomans" in the Peloponnesus, nor that there was any admixture to speak of, which would have been very difficult. You had to marry within your own religion, something that is still the case in Israel, for example. The only option was conversion. Conversion for a Muslim normally meant death so far as I know, so I don't know how Muslims could have been marrying Greeks and being absorbed by the Greek community at this time. Women could be absorbed, but the "Ottomans" were mostly expelled. Could there be some influence? Perhaps, but I highly doubt there is any significance here.

Likewise, you produce no evidence for large numbers of "Byzantines", by which I assume you mean "non-Greek" Byzantines, being settled in the Peloponnesus, or Persian mistresses during the Hellenistic period, for that matter. :) Are you one of those people with a crystal ball, or a secret time machine?

As to the Roman Era, I have no idea what you're talking about. You have some historical document that the dastardly Romans settled Iranians there or something? 

Am I claiming I know exactly how all this happened? No, I'm not, but my God, this is worse conjecture than Fallermayer. Even he had more facts than this. 

In addition, whatever exchanges took place during the Colonization period, or the Hellenization period, or the Classical Era, the Slav "invasions" took place* after* that time. They even took place after a good part of the Byzantine Era. So, that would just be more proof that the effect in terms of actual genetic material from the Poles, Russians, etc. was trivial. Get it?

You are also losing track of the fact that this thread is dedicated to a particular paper, which is about the Peloponnesus, and about the amount of Slavic ancestry in the people of that era. Is that clear? Stop going off topic. The genetic relationship between Albanians and Greeks was not addressed in the paper, and is off topic. Everyone but you is staying within those limits. If you continue with this posting of material about Albanians etc., you'll get another infraction.

----------


## Angela

> Not that I care about the 'Europeanness' of assorted populations, but for a population with significant Asian influx modern Greeks are nestled a bit too neatly between the neighbouring Albanians and Western Anatolians. Was there a replacement in Albania as well?
> 
> Also what do we make of the fact that *the Maniotes of all, in whom historians and anthropologists saw a remnant tribe of the Dorians due to their appearances & alleged warrior ethos, with the lowest affinity to present North Europeans?* The former affinity exists at elevated levels as far north and west as Croatia and perhaps beyond, so it cannot be considered recent.


That's another reason why I find all of this very amusing. :) Honestly, you couldn't make up a bigger rebuke to all that Nordicism bunk than these results for the Maniotes.

----------


## Nik

Did you give any thoughts to the fact that the Venetians invited many immigrants from the rest of Greece, Crete, Chios (and other Aegeans), Bulgarians, and Asia Minor Greeks and ended up doubling the population of Peloponnese within 10 years, but these immigrants did not settle in Mani. 

Therefore I believe this event contributed to the general Peloponnesians being closer to other Greeks (Northern, islanders and Asia Minor) and Balkan people, while the Maniotes retained more their Dark Age admixture. 

Another fact I would like to add is that the area of Messenia with towns such as Koroni and Methoni were vastly settled by Arvanites, some of whom migrated to Italy, some converted to Islam, and some remained Orthodox, which could have further increased the Balkan or so-called Slavic admixture and differentiated them even more from the Maniotes, but not much from Laconia due to it being also settled by Arvanites too. 

By the way, I'm not trying to go off topic but simply sharing/contributing with what I know as such recorded movements seem to correspond to what the authors concluded. And I'm simply saying that these movements of Arvanites contributed to the differentiation, not caused it in case someone will go on a rampage against my post. 

This is all I know, so hope it helps as doubling the population with non-Peloponnesians definitely is a big event.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> What I find rather amusing about all of this is that the people of the Tayetos, whom Fallermayer was so convinced were Slavs, should be so "Sicilian like". :)


Well it clearly shows they are not Slavs at all. :) I wonder the basis for any claim otherwise. I don't mean to make this about physical appearance but the very first Greek family I ever met, friends of my mother's, are from the Tayetos region and they all are very dark, with clearly (eastern) Mediterranean features. The mother looks identical to photos of my Sicilian great-grandmother. The suffix on their surname is specific to that region.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> _Belarusians_
> _Russians_
> _Polish_
> _Ukrainians_
> _French_
> _Italians_
> _Basque_
> _Andalusians_
> 
> ...




This shows what I said before: Deep Mani and South Tsakonia might share less IBD with Italians, but those are still their closest non-Greek relatives.

----------


## Blanco

How can one Hungarian person plot with Finns and one plot more Eastern than the Italian average. I just assume those individuals may be mixed or mislabeled. There's just no way a small ethnic group can be that diverse..
I also would like to see how other Greek regions get placed on that map such as Cappadocian or Islander Greeks.

----------


## Yetos

oh boy 

Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?

*Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East

remember the 4rth crusade.
for it was never a crusade,*

----------


## Angela

> Oreo Cookie: Well it clearly shows they are not Slavs at all. :) I wonder the basis for any claim otherwise. I don't mean to make this about physical appearance but the very first Greek family I ever met, friends of my mother's, are from the Tayetos region and they all are very dark, with clearly (eastern) Mediterranean features. The mother looks identical to photos of my Sicilian great-grandmother. The suffix on their surname is specific to that region


Still with the anecdotal "proof" based on the phenotype of one "supposed" acquaintance. My Zia Iri looks like a red haired Norwegian. So? Is this all you've got left? What happened to the "all mainland Greeks are transposed Slavs" theory?

This Maniot doesn't look very "dark" and "East Med" to me, to use your made up term.





> Oreo/Cookie: This shows what I said before: Deep Mani and South Tsakonia might share less IBD with Italians, but those are still their closest non-Greek relatives


*.*

Your thought processes continue to amaze. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that's correct. So? What huge conclusion are you going to draw from that if it's true? You do realize that the reverse is not true? The Italians, including the Sicilians, are not closest to Deep Mani by any measure, contrary to what you were insisting. You do realize that the chart still shows the most IBD sharing between Italians and East Tayetos, yes? You haven't forgotten that the Sicilians overlap with East Tayetos and not Deep Mani, the East Tayetos which supposedly was the home of a "Slavic" tribe?

@Yetos,
A lot of this is just baseless conjecture, or the history they know is myth written by Nordicists. It's not worth arguing with them.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> You haven't forgotten that the Sicilians overlap with East Tayetos and not Deep Mani, the East Tayetos which supposedly was the home of a "Slavic" tribe?.


Well then what that shows is that the people of East Tayetos are not Slavic by any stretch of the imagination, since Sicilians have no Slavic ancestry. The paper itself demonstrates this. 

East Tayetos plotting with Sicilians is pretty solid evidence they're not Slavic.

----------


## LABERIA

From what i have read somewhere long time ago, Maniates had converted to Christianity before the Slavic invasion, but after they are mentioned as pagans. Does anyone have any information on this?

----------


## Yetos

Today is *25 of March* by agreement a national day *
NOW
*lets see how classical Europe knows the Greeks 
1 Through Literature and History, 
2 through religion (new testament)
3) through philosophy and symposiums
4) by maps
5) *BY ART 

Authentic or copies of Statues, Mosaics, of Classical Greek or Roman era
Imagination of Classical painters

so Fallmerayer expects to see this 
*


*and instead he see This* 



*or this*




*oh boy, what disapointment,*
*so what he could say or write down?




*


PS
i know photos have nothing to do with Thread but today is national day,
and I am tired with Black Athena and Fallmerayer theories

----------


## Hauteville

> oh boy 
> 
> Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
> Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
> why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?
> 
> *Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East
> 
> remember the 4rth crusade.
> for it was never a crusade,*


Indeed
The latinocrats were indeed a mixture of French, Italians (mostly venetians but also tuscans, sicilians and neapolitans) and Spaniards (aragonese, valencians and catalans).

The Italian page about the Duchy of Neopatria quoted an interesting thing:




> La regione, fece parte, fino al 1319, del Ducato di Tessaglia. In quell'anno fu conquistata dall'infante Alfonso Federico d'Aragona *appartenente al ramo cadetto della casa d'Aragona di Sicilia*, che per l'occasione si avvalse di truppe mercenarie aragonesi e catalane, i celebri Almogvers (in castigliano _Almogvares). Neopatria accrebbe rapidamente la propria popolazione grazie all'afflusso di immigrati catalani, aragonesi, valenziani e siciliani, mentre gli altri centri restarono compattamente ellenici. Pur continuando il greco ad essere la lingua d'uso della massima parte degli abitanti, fu sostituita, come lingua ufficiale, dal latino, e, come lingua di corte, dal catalano._


It basically said that Neopatria increased the population with the immigration of catalans, aragonese, valencians and sicilians.

----------


## Angela

> Well then what that shows is that the people of East Tayetos are not Slavic by any stretch of the imagination, since Sicilians have no Slavic ancestry. The paper itself demonstrates this. 
> 
> East Tayetos plotting with Sicilians is pretty solid evidence they're not Slavic.


Again, you over-generalize. East Tayetos does have some "Slavic" ancestry, just not at the levels you expected, just as Sicilians have "some" Norman ancestry, and some "Lombard" ancestry, as in Northern Italian ancestry, and some Italic ancestry too. 

Plus, "Slavic" is a language. What these tests are picking up is broadly north eastern European ancestry. The Langobardi came from the northeast too. So did populations who became part of the "Indo-European" migrations.

----------


## Angela

*
NOW
*lets see how classical Europe knows the Greeks 
1 Through Literature and History, 
2 through religion (new testament)
3) through philosophy and symposiums
4) by maps
5) *BY ART 

Authentic or copies of Statues, Mosaics, of Classical Greek or Roman era
Imagination of Classical painters

so Fallmerayer expects to see this 
*


*and instead he see This* 



*or this*




*oh boy, what disapointment,*
*so what he could say or write down?




*
PS
i know photos have nothing to do with Thread but today is national day,
and I am tired with Black Athena and Fallmerayer theories


[/QUOTE] Yetos, I'm going to have to remove most of this post. It's off-topic. I'm tired too, but the rules are for everyone. Don't make me give you an infraction.

----------


## Angela

If all of the paint hadn't been rubbed off these statues, these theories would have had no legs at all, because you would have seen the variety in these people.

This statue was digitally altered to colorize it in accordance with paint residue found on it.


They also should have looked at the features of these statues more carefully.

Does she look northeast European to anyone?

Or him?



Or him?


It's like all those hundreds of thousands of words that were expended discussing the Classical Greek aesthetic based on the mistaken belief their temples were as white as snow, when they actually looked like this:





Historians, including art historians, were so wrong about so much.

----------


## spartan owl

> From what i have read somewhere long time ago, Maniates had converted to Christianity before the Slavic invasion, but after they are mentioned as pagans. Does anyone have any information on this?


maniots were pagan long before and long after the slavic invasion
they continued to worship zeus until 9th century but the process of conversion continued 12th to 13th century
There is a description of Mani and its inhabitants in Constantine VII's _De Administrando Imperio_:[19]
[TABLE="class: cquote"]
[TR]

----------


## spartan owl

The introduction of Christianity came late in the Mani: the first Greek temples began to be converted into Christian churches during the 11th century A.D. A Byzantine Greek monk called Nikon "the Metanoite" (Greek: Νίκων ὁ Μετανοείτε) was commissioned by the Church in the 9th century to spread Christianity to areas such as Mani and Tsakonia, which had remained Pagan. Mavromichalis
St. Nikon was sent to the Mani in the latter half of the 9th century to preach Christianity to the Maniots. Although the Maniots began to convert to Christianity in the 10th century due to Nikon's preaching, it took more than 200 years, i.e. until the 12th and 13th centuries, to eliminate most of the pagan Greek religion and traditions and for the Maniots to fully accept Christianity

----------


## spartan owl

constantine VII de administrando impero
_Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation._

----------


## spartan owl

> Well it clearly shows they are not Slavs at all. :) I wonder the basis for any claim otherwise. I don't mean to make this about physical appearance but the very first Greek family I ever met, friends of my mother's, are from the Tayetos region and they all are very dark, with clearly (eastern) Mediterranean features. The mother looks identical to photos of my Sicilian great-grandmother. The suffix on their surname is specific to that region.


lakonians are both dark and fair let see our parlamentaries politicians
grhgorakos.jpgdabakhs (1).jpgarachobitis1482308128.jpg

----------


## oreo_cookie

> Again, you over-generalize. East Tayetos does have some "Slavic" ancestry, just not at the levels you expected, just as Sicilians have "some" Norman ancestry, and some "Lombard" ancestry, as in Northern Italian ancestry, and some Italic ancestry too.


Aren't there places in Sicily where neither Norman nor Lombard ancestry would be significant? I am thinking of inland Caltanissetta, as well as the northeast coastal areas.

----------


## Angela

> lakonians are both dark and fair let see our parlamentaries politicians
> grhgorakos.jpgdabakhs (1).jpgarachobitis1482308128.jpg


Some people aren't interested in reality; they're pushing an agenda.

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos, I'm going to have to remove most of this post. It's off-topic. I'm tired too, but the rules are for everyone. Don't make me give you an infraction.


Angela

Ok, do your job,

At least someone (you) read it.

----------


## Angela

> Aren't there places in Sicily where neither Norman nor Lombard ancestry would be significant? I am thinking of inland Caltanissetta, as well as the northeast coastal areas.


Still relying on some supposed sample of someone from Caltanisetta? Who knows where that person's great-grandparents had their origin, or how representative that person is of everyone in their area. Anyone can claim any ancestry they choose on some internet site, if they even know it precisely. That isn't a scientific paper. Plus, haven't we learned how deceptive 23andme and gedmatch results can be?

Are you aware that in the last 1500 years Sicilians have been moving around their island and intermarrying to some degree? I don't know of any area in Sicily that is as isolated as the Deep Mani appears to be. Caltanisetta, to the best of my knowledge, is set in rolling hills. It borders areas with different migration histories. Its history is varied, like much of Sicily. Italics, a fort built by Carthaginians, Romans, Moors, then, "The settlement was captured by the Normans in 1086." We then have the Hohenstaufens, Anjou, and a Spanish rule, the longest by far: *In 1406 Caltanissetta became a fief of the noble Spanish family Moncada,[2] which already owned the estate of Paternò, and subsequently decayed deeply. "
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltan...ons_of_Italy-2*

*If a lot of importance is going to be given to all these various periods of foreign rule, maybe their particular mix of ancestry should be seen as the product of admixture with these Spaniards as well. I believe they were connected to Valencia, but my recollection may be faulty.

As for the northeast, it is one of the only areas in Sicily where the Moors basically did not enter. Throughout Moorish rule this area was allowed to govern itself, kept its Greek Christian faith, continued to speak Greek, etc. All that was demanded was some tribute. So, if someone were going to look for the most Greek like or most autochthonous Sicilians, I think this would be a good place to test. Since they're probably very similar to the Calabrians of Reggio Calabria, who kept Griko alive for a long time, and where you can still find Griko speakers today, I think that might be a fertile area for testing as well.

See: "The History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard Chiaretti.

I wouldn't test in Messina, however, or draw any vast conclusions based on the dna of the people there about these kinds of details, as it was almost completely destroyed by an earthquake in the early 20th century (only the latest of these natural disasters) and repopulated by people from other areas of Sicily. I don't think anyone would be able at this point to pin down the precise origins of all these people. 

Can we now leave your obsession with Sicilians and get back to the people of the Peloponnesus?

----------


## Hauteville

The history of Caltanissetta's origins in english wiki are wrong by the way. The local historian Luigi Santagati thinks it was an hellenized Sicanian city called Nissa.




> oh boy 
> 
> Do ever hear the word Latinocracy?
> Venetians brought themshelfs and crusader considering the Monferats
> why to bring population from Anatolia which would stronger the Greek feeling that already existed and the anti-Latin = anti-crusade feeling?
> 
> *Latinocrats (Ducat of Athens) brought Arbanites, from West they did not Bring population from East
> 
> remember the 4rth crusade.
> for it was never a crusade,*


The latinocracy also introduced many Italians to Greece, as well as Spaniards and French. The Ducato of Neopatria (as well as the one of Atene) were part of kingdom of Sicily (the insular part) with the Aragonese-Swabian dinasty all over the 1300 and look at this point:

"Neopatria accrebbe rapidamente la propria popolazione grazie all'afflusso di immigrati catalani, aragonesi, valenziani e siciliani"

This point basically said that Neopatria's population increased by the immigration of Spaniards (Aragonese, Catalans and Valencians) and Italians from Sicily (later also Tuscans).

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducato_di_Neopatria

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Eurogenes accuses the study's authors of Greek confirmation bias...then engages in confirmation bias of its own, saying without evidence that medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were heavily mixed with native non-Slavic Balkan populations. Eurogenes is trying to shoehorn Slavs in Greece one way or another. 

I don't necessarily doubt that Slavs who entered Greece were different than modern northern and eastern Slavic populations, but I have a hard time with the logic that non-Slavic Balkan populations survived enough to be blended with medieval Slavs, but medieval Greeks were extinguished or barely existed, even before the Slavs arrived.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Eurogenes accuses the study's authors of Greek confirmation bias...then engages in confirmation bias of its own, saying without evidence that medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were heavily mixed with native non-Slavic Balkan populations. Eurogenes is trying to shoehorn Slavs in Greece one way or another..


Eurogenes is a blog runned by a Slav, he could be accused himself of confirmation bias.

----------


## Boreas

> Eurogenes accuses the study's authors of Greek confirmation bias...then engages in confirmation bias of its own, saying without evidence that medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were heavily mixed with native non-Slavic Balkan populations. Eurogenes is trying to shoehorn Slavs in Greece one way or another. 
> 
> I don't necessarily doubt that Slavs who entered Greece were different than modern northern and eastern Slavic populations,


Thanks god, truth has been spoken

----------


## LABERIA

> maniots were pagan long before and long after the slavic invasion
> they continued to worship zeus until 9th century but the process of conversion continued 12th to 13th century
> There is a description of Mani and its inhabitants in Constantine VII's _De Administrando Imperio_:[19]
> [TABLE="class: cquote"]
> [TR]


From wikipedia(not always a credibile source):
_The Maniots at that time were called "Hellenes"—that is, pagans (see Names of the Greeks)—and were only Christianized fully in the 9th century AD, though some church ruins from the 4th century AD indicate that Christianity was practiced by some Maniots in the region at an earlier time._ 
Seems that Christianity was know and practiced among Maniots before slavic invasion.

----------


## LABERIA

> The introduction of Christianity came late in the Mani: the first Greek temples began to be converted into Christian churches during the 11th century A.D. A Byzantine Greek monk called Nikon "the Metanoite" (Greek: Νίκων ὁ Μετανοείτε) was commissioned by the Church in the 9th century to spread Christianity to areas such as Mani and Tsakonia, which had remained Pagan. Mavromichalis
> St. Nikon was sent to the Mani in the latter half of the 9th century to preach Christianity to the Maniots. Although the Maniots began to convert to Christianity in the 10th century due to Nikon's preaching, it took more than 200 years, i.e. until the 12th and 13th centuries, to eliminate most of the pagan Greek religion and traditions and for the Maniots to fully accept Christianity


Source of this, please?

----------


## LABERIA

Your post is inaccurate and totally of topic. It's not a problem to explain one by one that all your points here are wrong. But this are not part of our discussion here and i don't want other eggs. 
Even the colonization of Greece and especially of Peloponnesus by this Albanians, for some strange reasons, is not allow to be discussed by the moderator. 
So, let stay on topic.

----------


## Angela

> Eurogenes accuses the study's authors of Greek confirmation bias...then engages in confirmation bias of its own, saying without evidence that medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were heavily mixed with native non-Slavic Balkan populations. Eurogenes is trying to shoehorn Slavs in Greece one way or another. 
> 
> I don't necessarily doubt that Slavs who entered Greece were different than modern northern and eastern Slavic populations, but I have a hard time with the logic that non-Slavic Balkan populations survived enough to be blended with medieval Slavs, but medieval Greeks were extinguished or barely existed, even before the Slavs arrived.


I don't necessarily doubt it either. We need ancient dna to know that. However, the point is that when someone presents an argument about low levels of admixture from a certain migration for group A, but refuses to countenance even equal much less lower levels for group B which is further from the homeland in time and geography, but wants to argue extinction, you know you have a dishonest argument. This shouldn't be a surprise; consider the source. 

Likewise, people who were arguing actual "Slavic" as in Polish or Russian ancestry in all of mainland Greeks of over 30% and trying to "prove" it by cherry picked photos of Greeks of whom it was claimed that they looked very "Polish" or "Russian", are now claiming they never meant anything of the kind, and they just meant they were Bulgarians or something. Please. Some of us are not stupid, and we also don't have Alzheimers. Our memories are functioning very well, thank-you. 

People are also losing sight of a few other points. This 0-14% ancestry is the "shared" ancestry. Nothing says it arrived in the Peloponnesus after the fall of Rome. It's basically northeast European ancestry. Keep that in mind. Some of it could be from "Indo-Europeans", Goths, Celts, etc. 

As for all these "Slavic" tribes being Bulgarians, I haven't even seen any data in terms of migration paths, numbers, etc., even though those things are always highly speculative and grossly inflated in most cases. It's like listening to the description of a fish some guy caught on his last trip. It was always as big as a whale. I beg leave to doubt. I don't believe the numbers for the Ligurians exiled to the Sannio by the Romans either. Ancient historians were even worse than modern historians in terms of cherry picking and bias.

----------


## spartan owl

> Source of this, please?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula
but you can also read the biografy of saint nikon the metanoite

----------


## Tomenable

> saying without evidence that medieval Slavs who invaded Greece were heavily mixed with native non-Slavic Balkan populations.


According to Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica, Slavs had lived the Balkans for 300 years before settling in the Peloponnesus. He says that first Slavs settled in the Peloponnesus shortly before 800 AD. They had lived in the Balkans since around 500 AD. So definitely they had had enough time for mixing with non-Slavic (but also non-Peloponnesian) Balkan groups.

The Slavs *raided* Central and Southern Greece already in the 500s, but actually *settled* there much later!

----------


## Tomenable

> Does she look northeast European to anyone?


We should focus on genetics instead of physical anthropology because each generation of North-East Europeans looks different than other generations of North-East Europeans. For example* between years 1978 and 2004 mean Cephalic Index in Rzeszów (South-Eastern Poland) declined from 85.1 to 81.9 among 18 year old boys and from 86.0 to 82.9 among 18 year old girls*, as data below shows. So during just a quarter of a century you have *a decline of mean C.I. by 3 points:*

http://www.pmurz.nazwa.pl/PDF/2008/2/05_z2_2008.pdf




The same trend can be observed also in Czech Republic and in Germany today:

http://www.josephy.cz/how-czech-people-grow/

"For the Czech population round shape of head was typical for a long time. At the beginning of the twentieth century Appollinaire described the inhabitants of Prague as „round-headed folk drinking beer in their city.“ *Yet it comes out that, especially from the 80’s of the twentieth century heads of the Czech people are constantly becoming more narrow and elongated while retaining the same circumference (the so-called tendency to dolichocephalization). This trend is evident in other countries as well, for instance in Poland and Germany.* (...)"

====================

During the previous centuries, between ca. 1300 and 1900 AD, there was the opposite trend - mean C.I. was increasing. But changes were not as rapid as today. Instead of a few points per generations, it was ca. 0.3 point per generation:

As Carleton S. Coon wrote:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=BqC...Nordic&f=false

"Most of the Slavs retained their original dolichocephalic cranial form until at the earliest the thirteenth, and at the latest the fifteenth, century. At that time, those who inhabited Russia and Central Europe grew progressively brachycephalic, at a rapid but consistent rate. *Well-documented series from Bohemia and from the Moscow government show how this change progressed from century to century, so that normal means of 73 to 75 rose as high as 83 by the nineteenth.* Few Slavs were spared this change, which was parallel to that which affected the southern Germans and other peoples of Central and Eastern Europe. Although it took place in the full light of late mediaeval and modern history, no one fully satisfactory explanation has yet been offered. (...) *In Poland, between the Carpathians and the Baltic, in a region of great ethnic stability and continuity, the mean cranial index has increased from about 74 to 84 since A.D. 1300, in about thirty generations.* (...)"

====================

Here some *Polish 10th century AD* skulls from the region of Greater Poland:

http://i63.tinypic.com/161yk55.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2gv5xn5.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/33c5g8n.jpg

====================

Anthropological studies of Early Slavs:

Ilse Schwidetzky, "Rassenkunde der Altslawen" - https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2...-altslawen.pdf

Rösing, Schwidetzky, "Vergleichend-statstische Untersuchungen zur Anthropologie des fruhen Mittelalters":

http://www.mgh.de/bibliothek/opac/?w...ndex=1&db=opac

PDF: http://www.mgh-bibliothek.de//cgi-bi...d-statistische

Adelheid Bach, "Germanen-Slawen-Deutsche" - https://www.db-thueringen.de/servlet...027304X_19.pdf

J. Piontek, "Antropologia o pochodzeniu Słowian" - http://www.geoinfo.amu.edu.pl/sas/06...TEK%202008.pdf

Ł. M. Stanaszek, "The Phenotype of Slavs (6th-10th century AD)" (in Polish + English summary):

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

There is also one study by Alexeeva from 2003.

*The list of primary written sources which describe how Early Slavs looked like:*

*6th century AD:*

- Procopius of Caesarea
- Theophylact Simocatta
- Theophanes the Confessor
- Emperor Maurice ("Strategikon")
- Pseudo-Caesarius of Nazianzus 

*7th century AD:*

- Al-Ahtal 
- Ibn Qutaybah

*8th century AD:*

- Ibn Al-Kalbi

*9th century AD:*

- Al-Baladhuri 
- Al-Ğāhiz

*10th century AD:*

- Abraham ben Jacob
- Constantine Porphyrogennetos 
- Al-Masudi
- Ibn al-Faqih
- Yaqut al-Hamawi*

*He lived in the 13th century but was quoting 10th century sources.

----------


## Angela

Great. I'm personally fine with that as a hypothesis until we get ancient dna. 

So, a few tribes of people who spoke a Slavic language but were probably only about 30% ? actually Slavic, or more accurately northeastern and central European settled a few of those tribes in the Peloponnesus, and admixed with the "natives", with the result that present day Peloponnesians today have anywhere from virtually no such ancestry to a maximum of 14%.

Are you happy now?

----------


## Angela

I wasn't just talking about the skull. I was also talking about the noses, and the eyes, and the shape of the face. Those people are Meds anthropologically, if not Dinaric, which is *not* the phenotype of your average Slav or German. Period. Get over it. 

All that gibberish from the 19th and early 20th century about how "Germanic" the ancient Greeks and Romans looked is a crock. The "scholars" who posited that from looking at classical statuary must have been blind. Use your common sense and just look at them, for goodness sakes. Look at Pericles while you're at it. 



Look at Cleopatra, pure inbred Macedonian:


Why do people lose their common sense when these topics are discussed?

----------


## spartan owl

> Did you give any thoughts to the fact that the Venetians invited many immigrants from the rest of Greece, Crete, Chios (and other Aegeans), Bulgarians, and Asia Minor Greeks and ended up doubling the population of Peloponnese within 10 years, but these immigrants did not settle in Mani. 
> 
> Therefore I believe this event contributed to the general Peloponnesians being closer to other Greeks (Northern, islanders and Asia Minor) and Balkan people, while the Maniotes retained more their Dark Age admixture. 
> 
> 
> Another fact I would like to add is that the area of Messenia with towns such as Koroni and Methoni were vastly settled by Arvanites, some of whom migrated to Italy, some converted to Islam, and some remained Orthodox, which could have further increased the Balkan or so-called Slavic admixture and differentiated them even more from the Maniotes, but not much from Laconia due to it being also settled by Arvanites too. 
> 
> By the way, I'm not trying to go off topic but simply sharing/contributing with what I know as such recorded movements seem to correspond to what the authors concluded. And I'm simply saying that these movements of Arvanites contributed to the differentiation, not caused it in case someone will go on a rampage against my post. 
> 
> This is all I know, so hope it helps as doubling the population with non-Peloponnesians definitely is a big event.


The peloponnese when venetians took over had its population reduced in half because a lot of people fled because of the war.They followed a policy in order to convice them to return.
They did return and a lot of other greeks followed as well so the population was quickly restored .But i do not see how this event can drastically change the genetics of peloponnese as even the non peloponneseans were greeks as well.
Reguarding messenia: why are you so sure that the higher slavic percentage is because of the albanians (that they are not slavs to begin with) and not because of the slavic settlements of west taygetos.You see taygetos is the border between laconia and messenia so the east part belongs to laconia while the west in messenia.So maybe slavic tribes over time prefered to move towards the richer valley of messenia were they did not have to deal with war-like tribes like the maniots and the spartans.Or maybe they had settled less in the laconian part of the mountain (that is more wild) right from the start.
There can be dozens of explanations...

----------


## LATGAL

> Likewise, people who were arguing actual "Slavic" as in Polish or Russian ancestry in all of mainland Greeks of over 30% and trying to "prove" it by cherry picked photos of Greeks of whom it was claimed that they looked very "Polish" or "Russian", are now claiming they never meant anything of the kind, and they just meant they were Bulgarians or something. Please. Some of us are not stupid, and we also don't have Alzheimers. Our memories are functioning very well, thank-you.


A couple of people I know of did reassure everyone that half of the mainland Greek population wouldn't look out of place in the Ukraine after all.


Anyway, much the rest of the stuff posted are meaningless digressions. When enough Classical samples come, one can meaningfully discuss how genetically more "Near Eastern"-ized or not the Balkans** have become from Hellenistic times onward. Until then, it's just retreading 19th-20th century theories that rested as much on preconceived notions of white supremacy as careful examination of the evidence (and pigmentation itself, even if it correlates with certain ancestry, doesn't tell you the whole story as we know by now). I can think of many potential scenaria.

**Because this involves the rest of the Balkans too - the other pre-Roman people, the Albanians, aren't Iberian-like either and instead seem very close to mainland Greeks as has been pointed out.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> If all of the paint hadn't been rubbed off these statues, these theories would have had no legs at all, because you would have seen the variety in these people.
> 
> This statue was digitally altered to colorize it in accordance with paint residue found on it.
> 
> 
> They also should have looked at the features of these statues more carefully..


This style of art is clearly Egyptian influenced. Not sure about the features though.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

I'm also fine with the hypothesis that Slavs were mixed with non-Slavic Balkan populations when they came to the Peloponnese. I'm fine with the idea that lots of Greeks in the Peloponnese today have Arvanite ancestry. Arvanites helped the Greek independence cause and gave a lot to Greece. 

A problem I have is that non-Slavic Balkan populations survived in numbers enough to have altered the Slavic gene pool to such a degree that it looks "Greek-like" today, while medieval inhabitants of the Peloponnese, but more specifically Greece, were so few that the Slavs replaced their genes.

----------


## LABERIA

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_Peninsula
> but you can also read the biografy of saint nikon the metanoite


You have to read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots 



> From wikipedia(not always a credibile source):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Maniots at that time were called "Hellenes"—that is, pagans (see Names of the Greeks)—and were only Christianized fully in the 9th century AD, though some church ruins from the 4th century AD indicate that Christianity was practiced by some Maniots in the region at an earlier time._


Seems that Christianity was know and practiced among Maniots before slavic invasion. The interruption of Christianity in Mani coincide with this slavic invasion. After that the Byzantine power was restored, started the conversion of the inhabitants of Mani in Christianity.

----------


## LABERIA

> The peloponnese when venetians took over had its population reduced in half because a lot of people fled because of the war.They followed a policy in order to convice them to return.
> They did return and a lot of other greeks followed as well so the population was quickly restored .But i do not see how this event can drastically change the genetics of peloponnese as even the non peloponneseans were greeks as well.
> Reguarding messenia: why are you so sure that the higher slavic percentage is because of the albanians (that they are not slavs to begin with) and not because of the slavic settlements of west taygetos.You see taygetos is the border between laconia and messenia so the east part belongs to laconia while the west in messenia.So maybe slavic tribes over time prefered to move towards the richer valley of messenia were they did not have to deal with war-like tribes like the maniots and the spartans.Or maybe they had settled less in the laconian part of the mountain (that is more wild) right from the start.
> There can be dozens of explanations...


Can you quote any credibile source about this policy followed by Venetians that restored quickly the Greek population in Peloponnesus?

----------


## kostop

> Pfft! Who's this squint-eyed hunk anyway?
> 
> Achilles was blond - Ilias I, 197-199
> 
> 
> 
> ... and Menelaos as well - Odys. III, 324-326
> 
> 
> ...


A short visit to a museum in Greece or South Italy is actually enough to put this nonsense to rest for most people, however....
those who desperately repeat this "blond ancient Greeks" fantasy constantly fail in basic logic:
- The "light" hair of some mythological/historical figures is mentioned in ancient texts as a means to make them STAND OUT from their group. if everyone in their group was blond, yellow hair would not be used as a reference.
- Light hair is not uncommon in Greece today.


Sorry for the off topic comment, but this thing is almost comical now.

----------


## MarkoZ

> A short visit to a museum in Greece or South Italy is actually enough to put this nonsense to rest for most people, however....
> those who desperately repeat this "blond ancient Greeks" fantasy constantly fail in basic logic:
> - The "light" hair of some mythological/historical figures is mentioned in ancient texts as a means to make them STAND OUT from their group. if everyone in their group was blond, yellow hair would not be used as a reference.
> - Light hair is not uncommon in Greece today.
> 
> 
> Sorry for the off topic comment, but this thing is almost comical now.



Much of it probably came down to artistic choice as well. To cite an example, the Olympian gods are with the exception Athena quite dark (Apollo as a prince with black, long hair; Dionysos having full black hair) in the Homeric hymns, while some later depictions made them fairer. A parallel development can be observed the decreasing age of the gods - compare the middle-aged, bearded Ares with the beardless youth of later times, for instance. I don't think these fashions necessarily reflect how the Greeks themselves looked at the time.

----------


## Nik

> The peloponnese when venetians took over had its population reduced in half because a lot of people fled because of the war.They followed a policy in order to convice them to return.
> They did return and a lot of other greeks followed as well so the population was quickly restored .But i do not see how this event can drastically change the genetics of peloponnese as even the non peloponneseans were greeks as well.


Fair enough. I didn't say it drastically changed the genetic makeup, but simply seems logical that it did contribute to the changes we see in the study. Obviously they might have been Greeks in majority, but from different regions, therefore they got closer to the average Greek and slightly farther from the typical Pelopennesean population. That's all I meant. Plus consider that the presence of Cretans, Aegeans, and Asia Minor Greeks definitely diversified their genetic admixture as they're not identical to the mainland Greeks, not to mention Peloponneseans. That's why I suggested that part of the dilemma about the difference between Peloponnese and Mani is because of this event. 




> Reguarding messenia: why are you so sure that the higher slavic percentage is because of the albanians (that they are not slavs to begin with) and not because of the slavic settlements of west taygetos.You see taygetos is the border between laconia and messenia so the east part belongs to laconia while the west in messenia.So maybe slavic tribes over time prefered to move towards the richer valley of messenia were they did not have to deal with war-like tribes like the maniots and the spartans.Or maybe they had settled less in the laconian part of the mountain (that is more wild) right from the start.
> There can be dozens of explanations...


I never said "it's because of the Albanians", I said the Albanians definitely contributed to it. Since Slavic admixture means NE European admixture and since Albanians have higher levels than Southern Greeks, and that admixture can also be mostly pre-Slavic, it is again logical to simply assume that they did contribute to it. All such similar little contributions such as Mycenaeans, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, Scythian slaves, Goths, Vandals, Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, etc. are the final result of this study, not just Slavs or just Albanians. No need to analyze the Mycenaeans and Dorians though, I just used them as an example. I don't know if originating from the North is enough to prove that they had NE admixture at that time. 

Out of curiosity though, I find it strange that these early Slavs settled in the mountains and not mostly in the fields or valleys like they did elsewhere in the Balkans. It could indicate that they were already mixed with mountainous Balkan communities, or it could mean absolutely nothing.

----------


## spartan owl

> You have to read this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots 
> 
> Seems that Christianity was know and practiced among Maniots before slavic invasion. The interruption of Christianity in Mani coincide with this slavic invasion. After that the Byzantine power was restored, started the conversion of the inhabitants of Mani in Christianity.


do i really have to answer that?
do i really have to explaine that the term hellenes was used ONLY for the PAGAN GREEKS and not for slavs?
do you really belive that they used the term hellenes (meaning greeks) also for the pagan vikings of the varagian guard?
and if not, why should they use it for the slavs and not for the vikings?
why you do not care about the fact that the constantine VII de administrando imperio, that i had already mentioned, clearly says that maniots are not slavs?
you do prefered to forget it? or do you think you know better?
_Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation._
Of course there were cristians maniots right from the begining of cristianity.In fact corinth (who is located in n.e peloponnese)was one of the first cristian churches as we can see from saint pauls epistles (first and second to corinthians) and also from the fact that he personaly preached there.So if cristianism had arrived to the germans and to the irish of course would have arrived in mani.
The fact is that the MAJIORITY of the maniots resisted the conversion and prefered to worship the old gods.

----------


## spartan owl

> Can you quote any credibile source about this policy followed by Venetians that restored quickly the Greek population in Peloponnesus?


yes the census of the venetians them selves...
census of 1688,1691, 1692 ,1700 
in the census of 1688 the population was less than half of the last pre-war ottoman census
do you belive that they doubled the population of the peloponnese just for fun?
do you belive that half of the population was killed and that they did not just fled?
and if so who killed them? the turks or the venetians and why?
of course a lot of non peloponnese came also and even some bulgarians but most of them was just people returning home.
the fact that venetians mention that most settlers were from athens confirms that too because athens is the first region that you meet outside peloponnese.
so most of the peloponnesean refugees would have settled there.
And if you want the details of the policy you can read the biografy of the venetian governer giacomo corner

----------


## spartan owl

> Fair enough. I didn't say it drastically changed the genetic makeup, but simply seems logical that it did contribute to the changes we see in the study. Obviously they might have been Greeks in majority, but from different regions, therefore they got closer to the average Greek and slightly farther from the typical Pelopennesean population. That's all I meant. Plus consider that the presence of Cretans, Aegeans, and Asia Minor Greeks definitely diversified their genetic admixture as they're not identical to the mainland Greeks, not to mention Peloponneseans. That's why I suggested that part of the dilemma about the difference between Peloponnese and Mani is because of this event. 
> 
> 
> I never said "it's because of the Albanians", I said the Albanians definitely contributed to it. Since Slavic admixture means NE European admixture and since Albanians have higher levels than Southern Greeks, and that admixture can also be mostly pre-Slavic, it is again logical to simply assume that they did contribute to it. All such similar little contributions such as Mycenaeans, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, Scythian slaves, Goths, Vandals, Slavs, Albanians, Vlachs, etc. are the final result of this study, not just Slavs or just Albanians. No need to analyze the Mycenaeans and Dorians though, I just used them as an example. I don't know if originating from the North is enough to prove that they had NE admixture at that time. 
> 
> Out of curiosity though, I find it strange that these early Slavs settled in the mountains and not mostly in the fields or valleys like they did elsewhere in the Balkans. It could indicate that they were already mixed with mountainous Balkan communities, or it could mean absolutely nothing.


yes i agree they might have cotributed to that even if the albanians do not have high slavic admixture so what you say can not be proved.
But if i just for the sake of argument agreed with everything you say.If infact the slavs replaced (more or less) native greeks as you claim, then the albanians shouldn't actualy decrease the slavic admixture?
i think that your logic have a lot of holes and falacies.
Have you thought that maybe the slavs lived in the mountains because they couldn't conquer and then hold and run a big greco-roman style city?
Usualy you choose the mountain when you have to and not by choise and corinth sparta athens etc in that period were not just like every city in the balkans

----------


## LATGAL

Hmm, I posted something that doesn't seem to have made it through (I didn't notice why exactly) but I think MarkoZ comment is relevant for this issue. If there were significant post-Classical "Near Eastern" influx in the Balkans, it seems to have affected the other pre-Roman linguistic population as well - the Albanians, who are too more South Balkan-like than Iberian-like. This must have likely happened before their historical appearance during the 11th century, unless one consider some weird scenario of late medieval Albanians assimilating Balkan Slavic and Greek speakers and turning South Balkan that way...

One can make up all sorts of scenaria for those processes (and these theories have been debated for almost 200 years, not based on just textual evidence but also certain theories of white/Nordic supremacy) but the only way to solve it is Classical-era data from various places of the Balkans. Who knows, we might even see a gradual "Near Easternization" that was already the case for the Aegean and slowly moved northwards in later times. Or we might not see any of that and instead those populations looked already like the contemporary mixture (even if there were later population replacements and additions of broadly similar elements from various regions) by Classical times.

If we're lucky, in 2-3 years we might have a decent ancient Balkan data-set.

----------


## Nik

> yes i agree they might have cotributed to that even if the albanians do not have high slavic admixture so what you say can not be proved.
> But if i just for the sake of argument agreed with everything you say.If infact the slavs replaced (more or less) native greeks as you claim, then the albanians shouldn't actualy decrease the slavic admixture?
> i think that your logic have a lot of holes and falacies.
> Have you thought that maybe the slavs lived in the mountains because they couldn't conquer and then hold and run a big greco-roman style city?
> Usualy you choose the mountain when you have to and not by choise and corinth sparta athens etc in that period were not just like every city in the balkans


Bro, i think you're confusing me with someone else. I actually said the extreme opposite, believing that Slavic admixture is less than 1%. 

Like I said, what the authors call Slavic admixture is in fact North Eastern European admixture, so it isn't necessarily Slavic and it's definitely present in the Balkans even during pre-Roman times. That can even be a original Dorian admixture for all i care.

----------


## Tomenable

> A problem I have is that non-Slavic Balkan populations survived in numbers enough to have altered the Slavic gene pool to such a degree that it looks "Greek-like" today


I made a PCA based on MDLP K16 calculator (actually I'm still in the process of making it, adding new samples).

As you can see below South Slavic populations form a gradient between West Slavs and Albanians (and Greeks). 

Slovenes and Croats plot very close to West Slavs, while Bulgarians and Macedonians closer to Albanians/Greeks:

http://i.imgur.com/6TcI7V5.png



Bul = Bulgarians
Mac = Macedonians
Bos = Bosnians
Mon = Montenegrin
Ser = Serbians
Cro = Croatians
Slov = Slovenians

Empty circles = Polish samples
Pluses = Czechs, Slovak, Sorb
Stars = Ukraine, Belarus, Russia

Full circles = Non-Slavic samples

----------


## Angela

> yes i agree they might have cotributed to that even if the albanians do not have high slavic admixture so what you say can not be proved.
> But if i just for the sake of argument agreed with everything you say.If infact the slavs replaced (more or less) native greeks as you claim, then the albanians shouldn't actualy decrease the slavic admixture?
> i think that your logic have a lot of holes and falacies.
> *Have you thought that maybe the slavs lived in the mountains because they couldn't conquer and then hold and run a big greco-roman style city?
> Usualy you choose the mountain when you have to and not by choise and corinth sparta athens etc in that period were not just like every city in the balkans*


That's a good observation.

We had a similar situation with some of the cultures which moved into Italy in the Bronze Age. They chose poor mountain land instead of land on the valley floors. The reason might be as you suggest.

It's also possible that they were primarily herders, with farming being secondary, and so they chose the terrain for which their subsistence strategies were more adapted.

----------


## Tomenable

That PCA shows that Slovenes and Croats are the most "genetically Slavic" South Slavic groups.

While Bulgarians and Macedonians are the least "genetically Slavic" groups among South Slavs.

North-Eastern Italian samples are considerably separated from neighbouring Slovene samples.

=========

RISE598 = Late Bronze Age Lithuania (the only ancient sample I added to that PCA so far).

----------


## spartan owl

> Bro, i think you're confusing me with someone else. I actually said the extreme opposite, believing that Slavic admixture is less than 1%. 
> 
> Like I said, what the authors call Slavic admixture is in fact North Eastern European admixture, so it isn't necessarily Slavic and it's definitely present in the Balkans even during pre-Roman times. That can even be a original Dorian admixture for all i care.


if by the term slavic or balkan you mean "dinaric" admixture then i should advise you to use more precise terms as even in the term balcan admixture greeks romanians and bulgarians are also included.But even in the case that the slavs of peloponnese were more like the croatian slavs, the albanians should decrease that admixture anyway as they are closer to the greeks than the croatians.
It is also rather unfortunate that you used the example of the messenia for that, as messenia haves the highest slavic (northeastern european) admixture of peloponnese.
On the other hand the dinaric-slavs hypothesis is valid but the research would have sown bigger northeast european admixture anyway (if they had replaced the local population), at least in similar levels that croatians and serbs do.And if the dinarics or the northeasterners had been heavily mixed before settling peloponnese to a degree that they were geneticaly indistinguishable from greeks.If their main difference from greeks was language, i do not see the point of discusing it in a genetics forum.
And one last thing.The authors use corectly the term slavic.You on the other hand seem cofused about it.

----------


## Nik

> if by the term slavic or balkan you mean "dinaric" admixture then i should advise you to use more precise terms as even in the term balcan admixture greeks romanians and bulgarians are also included.


By the term Balkans I mean the Balkans (geographically). Where in my post did you read about Balkan admixture? My term was precise enough, that being Balkans. Meaning the Balkans (geographically) have shared ancestry with NE Europe before the Slavs and even the Romans. Simple as that. 




> But even in the case that the slavs of peloponnese were more like the croatian slavs, the albanians should decrease that admixture anyway as they are closer to the greeks than the croatians.
> It is also rather unfortunate that you used the example of the messenia for that, as messenia haves the highest slavic (northeastern european) admixture of peloponnese.


You do realize that having a 15% IBD shared with NE Europeans doesn't make you 15% Slavic, right? By that logical you're calling the Peloponneseans 90% Italian. Although the Romans and Venetians could have contributed to the IBD between the Italians and Peloponneseans, it's definitely not 90%, nor 50%, and I believe not even 5%. 




> On the other hand the dinaric-slavs hypothesis is valid but the research would have sown bigger northeast european admixture anyway (if they had replaced the local population), at least in similar levels that croatians and serbs do.And if the dinarics or the northeasterners had been heavily mixed before settling peloponnese to a degree that they were geneticaly indistinguishable from greeks.If their main difference from greeks was language, i do not see the point of discusing it in a genetics forum.
> And one last thing.The authors use corectly the term slavic.You on the other hand seem cofused about it.


I still don't know why you're trying to convince me that the Peloponneseans are not Hellenized Slavs.

----------


## spartan owl

[QUOTE=Nik;504371] 

Another fact I would like to add is that the area of Messenia with towns such as Koroni and Methoni were vastly settled by Arvanites, some of whom migrated to Italy, some converted to Islam, and some remained Orthodox, which could have _further increased the Balkan or so-called Slavic admixture and differentiated them even more from the Maniotes_, but not much from Laconia due to it being also settled by Arvanites too. 
so how can a balcan population furter increase the balkanic admixture of another balkan population? and why you used the term balkan or so-called slavic admixture?.
slavic and balkanic it is not the same thing.SO or are talking about the balkanic slavs like the croatians or the word slavic shouldn't be in that sentence.On the other hand as the maniots are a balkanic population if you meant that the albanian admixture further differentiated them from the maniots you shouldn't have used the term balkanic admixture.
We agree in one thing anyway that even if phenotypically greeks and albanians are very different, genotypically are less different.
but explain me what do you belive?
fallmerayer was right or wrong?
this research is wright or wrong?
peloponneseans are greeks or not?

----------


## Tomenable

_"Identity by descent and the Völkerwanderung":_

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.WNqHRWhSDIU



_"Clues to migrations across Europe from the Iron Age to the present":_

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2012/...igrations.html

*"The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe":*

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

_"Recent Admixture in Forming the Contemporary West Eurasian Genomic Landscape":_

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/...822(15)00949-5

See how closely Poles are related to Slovenes (big green circle) compared to Italians (small blue circle):

----------


## spartan owl

> By the term Balkans I mean the Balkans (geographically). Where in my post did you read about Balkan admixture? My term was precise enough, that being Balkans. Meaning the Balkans (geographically) have shared ancestry with NE Europe before the Slavs and even the Romans. Simple as that. 
> 
> 
> You do realize that having a 15% IBD shared with NE Europeans doesn't make you 15% Slavic, right? By that logical you're calling the Peloponneseans 90% Italian. Although the Romans and Venetians could have contributed to the IBD between the Italians and Peloponneseans, it's definitely not 90%, nor 50%, and I believe not even 5%. 
> 
> 
> I still don't know why you're trying to convince me that the Peloponneseans are not Hellenized Slavs.


and you do realize that by saing: You do realize that having a 15% IBD shared with NE Europeans doesn't make you 15% Slavic, right? you are only beating a strawman i have never said that.

----------


## Nik

> so how can a balcan population furter increase the balkanic admixture of another balkan population? and why you used the term balkan or so-called slavic admixture?.


I asked in a previous post if by Slavic admixture the authors mean NE European shared IBD or simply the levels of R1a and I2a, because they were being mentioned as to what event elevated their levels. In the end I went ahead with the idea that Slavic admixture meant NE European shared IBD. 

I dont know how much shared IBD Albanians have with NE Europeans, but since we're way more North than Peloponnese and appearance wise probably in between Poland and Peloponnese, I believed Albanians should have higher shared IBD. 

If anyone has data about the shared IBD, please share as I am interested to see the results. 





> We agree in one thing anyway that even if phenotypically greeks and albanians are very different, genotypically are less different.
> but explain me what do you belive?
> fallmerayer was right or wrong?
> this research is wright or wrong?
> peloponneseans are greeks or not?


 Yes its strange how we're very similar genetically but phenotipically not so much, although I believe not at all if we take away some populations that serve as a bridge between the 2 nations. And I believe Fallmerayer was wrong, this research was a waste of time and money, Peloponneseans are Peloponneseans and just like every region in the whole world changed and will continue to change with time.

----------


## LABERIA

> I asked in a previous post if by Slavic admixture the authors mean NE European shared IBD or simply the levels of R1a and I2a, because they were being mentioned as to what event elevated their levels. In the end I went ahead with the idea that Slavic admixture meant NE European shared IBD. 
> 
> I dont know how much shared IBD Albanians have with NE Europeans, but since we're way more North than Peloponnese and appearance wise probably in between Poland and Peloponnese, I believed Albanians should have higher shared IBD. 
> 
> If anyone has data about the shared IBD, please share as I am interested to see the results. 
> 
> 
> Yes its strange how we're very similar genetically but phenotipically not so much, although I believe not at all if we take away some populations that serve as a bridge between the 2 nations. And I believe Fallmerayer was wrong, this research was a waste of time and money, Peloponneseans are Peloponneseans and just like every region in the whole world changed and will continue to change with time.


Well, depends what you understand with the word change.

----------


## LABERIA

> do i really have to answer that?
> do i really have to explaine that the term hellenes was used ONLY for the PAGAN GREEKS and not for slavs?
> do you really belive that they used the term hellenes (meaning greeks) also for the pagan vikings of the varagian guard?
> and if not, why should they use it for the slavs and not for the vikings?
> why you do not care about the fact that the constantine VII de administrando imperio, that i had already mentioned, clearly says that maniots are not slavs?
> you do prefered to forget it? or do you think you know better?
> _Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation._
> Of course there were cristians maniots right from the begining of cristianity.In fact corinth (who is located in n.e peloponnese)was one of the first cristian churches as we can see from saint pauls epistles (first and second to corinthians) and also from the fact that he personaly preached there.So if cristianism had arrived to the germans and to the irish of course would have arrived in mani.
> The fact is that the MAJIORITY of the maniots resisted the conversion and prefered to worship the old gods.


No, if you do not have an answer, you do not necessarily need to answer. There are evidences that Christianity was practiced in Mani before Slavice invasions. Then, after this invasion there is a lack of the presence of Christianity in the region.
About the origin of Maniates there are many theories. There is this romantic theory, a constant mantra in Mani history, who consider Maniates as descendants of ancient Spartans. There is the theory that Mani was invaded by slavs, slavic toponyms are present in Mani. 
There is a greek theory who consider Maniates as descendant of Illyrian tribe with the same name from the territory of today Montenegro. Or as Albanians mixed with Vlachs(here i am not talking about the migration of Albanians during the late middle age. During this migration some Arvanite infiltration are registred in this region), etc. Some greek scholars see a connection between the name of the region Mani with the medieval name of Peloponnesus, Morea and explain this connection with an Albanian word. So, there are many theories.
We don't know where was this castle of Maina. May have been at the tip of the Tigani promontory in Deep MANI, or the deserted hill-top Byzantine citadel of Old Kariopoulis in Kato Mani.

----------


## Angela

The answers have and will come from genetics, so I don't see how talking about the endless speculations of the past is of much use.

----------


## spartan owl

> No, if you do not have an answer, you do not necessarily need to answer. There are evidences that Christianity was practiced in Mani before Slavice invasions. Then, after this invasion there is a lack of the presence of Christianity in the region.
> About the origin of Maniates there are many theories. There is this romantic theory, a constant mantra in Mani history, who consider Maniates as descendants of ancient Spartans. There is the theory that Mani was invaded by slavs, slavic toponyms are present in Mani. 
> There is a greek theory who consider Maniates as descendant of Illyrian tribe with the same name from the territory of today Montenegro. Or as Albanians mixed with Vlachs(here i am not talking about the migration of Albanians during the late middle age. During this migration some Arvanite infiltration are registred in this region), etc. Some greek scholars see a connection between the name of the region Mani with the medieval name of Peloponnesus, Morea and explain this connection with an Albanian word. So, there are many theories.
> We don't know where was this castle of Maina. May have been at the tip of the Tigani promontory in Deep MANI, or the deserted hill-top Byzantine citadel of Old Kariopoulis in Kato Mani.


you did not even bother to read my answer did you?
And there are not slavic toponyms in deep mani only in outer mani and in north mani and thats why they were tested separately as west and east taygetos.

----------


## LABERIA

> yes the census of the venetians them selves...
> census of 1688,1691, 1692 ,1700 
> in the census of 1688 the population was less than half of the last pre-war ottoman census
> do you belive that they doubled the population of the peloponnese just for fun?
> do you belive that half of the population was killed and that they did not just fled?
> and if so who killed them? the turks or the venetians and why?
> of course a lot of non peloponnese came also and even some bulgarians but most of them was just people returning home.
> the fact that venetians mention that most settlers were from athens confirms that too because athens is the first region that you meet outside peloponnese.
> so most of the peloponnesean refugees would have settled there.
> And if you want the details of the policy you can read the biografy of the venetian governer giacomo corner


I don't have access in this Venetian census. If you can post a link this can be helpful. Tbh, i don't agree with you when you call this populations greeks. We know from many sources, starting from Ottoman defter, etc, who was the dominant population in Peloponnesus and Attica at the moment when Greece was invaded by Ottomans and at the moment when Greece was liberated, but i don't want to debate about this. 
Seems that you are talking about the Kingdom of the Morea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea
Large part of the article of Wiki is based in the work of a greek historian Apostolos Vakalopoulos. According to this article of Wiki, we learn that



> The Kingdom of the Morea (Italian: Regno di Morea) was the official name the Republic of Venice gave to the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece (which was more widely known as the Morea until the 19th century) when it was conquered from the Ottoman Empire during the Morean War in 1684–99. The Venetians tried, with considerable success, to repopulate the country and reinvigorate its agriculture and economy, but were unable to gain the allegiance of the bulk of the population, nor to secure their new possession militarily. As a result, it was lost again to the Ottomans in a brief campaign in June–September 1715. 
> Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7]....... 
> To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.[9][12][13]


According to the article of Wiki, in less than thirty years, according to your source, we have a replacement of more than half of the population. And this is just one case. During the medieval history, large part of Greece and of course Peloponnese was literally emptied of its population and was refilled again. How we can prove through this genetic study that the Slavs have not replaced the ancient Greeks and then the Byzantines on their side didn't replaced the same Slavs with populations from Asia Minor, etc?
This is like you want to make a study about the natives of America and use as a sample the European emigrants in America.

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## Bergin

Great to know that old greeks are still playing around!

It sounds to me that geography and climate, on the long term, dictate most genetic correlations.

----------


## Yetos

> I don't have access in this Venetian census. If you can post a link this can be helpful. Tbh, i don't agree with you when you call this populations greeks. We know from many sources, starting from Ottoman defter, etc, who was the dominant population in Peloponnesus and Attica at the moment when Greece was invaded by Ottomans and at the moment when Greece was liberated, but i don't want to debate about this. 
> Seems that you are talking about the Kingdom of the Morea:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea
> Large part of the article of Wiki is based in the work of a greek historian Apostolos Vakalopoulos. According to this article of Wiki, we learn that
> 
> According to the article of Wiki, in less than thirty years, according to your source, we have a replacement of more than half of the population. And this is just one case. During the medieval history, large part of Greece and of course Peloponnese was literally emptied of its population and was refilled again. How we can prove through this genetic study that the Slavs have not replaced the ancient Greeks and then the Byzantines on their side didn't replaced the same Slavs with populations from Asia Minor, etc?
> This is like you want to make a study about the natives of America and use as a sample the European emigrants in America.



I wonder 
before it was Anatolians, and Bulgarians,
now are Greeks from other parts of Greece,
yet by history we know from where the Duchy of Athens repopulate the area,
but still on the Anti-Hellenic agenda should we move, right?

although the moon is there, we still see the finger.

----------


## spartan owl

> I don't have access in this Venetian census. If you can post a link this can be helpful. Tbh, i don't agree with you when you call this populations greeks. We know from many sources, starting from Ottoman defter, etc, who was the dominant population in Peloponnesus and Attica at the moment when Greece was invaded by Ottomans and at the moment when Greece was liberated, but i don't want to debate about this. 
> Seems that you are talking about the Kingdom of the Morea:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea
> Large part of the article of Wiki is based in the work of a greek historian Apostolos Vakalopoulos. According to this article of Wiki, we learn that
> 
> According to the article of Wiki, in less than thirty years, according to your source, we have a replacement of more than half of the population. And this is just one case. During the medieval history, large part of Greece and of course Peloponnese was literally emptied of its population and was refilled again. How we can prove through this genetic study that the Slavs have not replaced the ancient Greeks and then the Byzantines on their side didn't replaced the same Slavs with populations from Asia Minor, etc?
> This is like you want to make a study about the natives of America and use as a sample the European emigrants in America.


if you read the study you will understand how it is prooved.The study also compares peloponneseans with greeks of asia minor.

----------


## spartan owl

> I asked in a previous post if by Slavic admixture the authors mean NE European shared IBD or simply the levels of R1a and I2a, because they were being mentioned as to what event elevated their levels. In the end I went ahead with the idea that Slavic admixture meant NE European shared IBD. 
> 
> I dont know how much shared IBD Albanians have with NE Europeans, but since we're way more North than Peloponnese and appearance wise probably in between Poland and Peloponnese, I believed Albanians should have higher shared IBD. 
> 
> If anyone has data about the shared IBD, please share as I am interested to see the results. 
> 
> 
> Yes its strange how we're very similar genetically but phenotipically not so much, although I believe not at all if we take away some populations that serve as a bridge between the 2 nations. And I believe Fallmerayer was wrong, this research was a waste of time and money, Peloponneseans are Peloponneseans and just like every region in the whole world changed and will continue to change with time.


For sure when you talk about slavs you can not exclude the russians and poles, so n.e european admixture should be the major fact. Also R1a and I2a are usefull but some people argue that I2a shouldn't be consider as it could be just the haplogroup of slavisized dinarics, while others disagree claiming that the differnce between I2a and R1a in the serbs and the russians for example are explained by a founder effect. R1a on the other hand is high in all slavic populations but you can not claim that R1a=slavs because the haplogroup is much older than the slavic expansion.
I do not have data about albanian IBD. In theory because of geography albania should be more close to the slavs, but as albania is a mountainous region i would not bet on it especialy because eupedias maps showing lower n.e european admixture for north albania.
An albania guy in the apricity gave this numbers for albanian haplogroups based in this study
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html
*Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%
*i do not know if they are wright but they seem so as the kosovars who are ghegs are the ones with the highest E-V13 in europe.
That for me is only the proof that albanians are a very strang case genetically speaking and is also a proof that they are an autochtonous nation like the greeks are.But as this is not a thread about albanians if you want to continue to talk about it text me personaly if we are both willing to keep it civilized.

----------


## last-resort

> Those people are Meds anthropologically, if not Dinaric, which is *not* the phenotype of your average Slav or German. Period. Get over it. 
> 
> All that gibberish from the 19th and early 20th century about how "Germanic" the ancient Greeks and Romans looked is a crock. The "scholars" who posited that from looking at classical statuary must have been blind. Use your common sense and just look at them, for goodness sakes. Look at Pericles while you're at it. 
> 
> Look at Cleopatra, pure inbred Macedonian:
> 
> Why do people lose their common sense when these topics are discussed?


 This is from #372 for those following along. Your question may be rhetorical, but there is a great tendency in humankind to associate oneself/one's peoples with winners/achievers, etc. In doing so, there is a readiness to discount differences and other things that spoil the association.

Getting personal, I was surprised to see George Washington in the same 'group' as me (R-L2). Now George W. had a beak (prominent nose). I have a beak too. Some artists tried to hide this, but there are enough extant portraits from various angles that it is clear that he had a honker - a big nose. A main difference (there are others) is that my coloration is Med, while his is northern European. (I actually said, 'son of a *****' when I saw his being there in 'my' line as I knew of the nose similarity for some time.) And it is clear that George W. was viewed (thought of, but also visage) as somewhat of an odd personage. It was likely his early success in the American war of independence, his intelligence, his integrity and his cunning (he was quite skilled at espionage arts) that sustained him from being removed as the war dragged out and his results flagged. I'm saying that appearance matters (especially in the USA), but that success matters more. Therefore his 'oddness' was overlooked so that all could associate themselves with him and his success. It is what we are.

If you cannot identify with this, think of casual sports fans who become rabid fans when a team/their team is on the cusp of winning or have won a championship - same thing.

As a Greek lineage person, I see the effect in the interwwebz discussion from several racial/ethnic groups which I won't name who repeatedly want to associate this person/tribe/entire Greek lineage to their own, even carrying over into at least the 20th century Greek persons. I should be flattered for my people but I think about the ignorance of so many that will believe this crap.

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/famo...shtml#R1b-U152

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## Angela

> This is from #372 for those following along. Your question may be rhetorical, but there is a great tendency in humankind to associate oneself/one's peoples with winners/achievers, etc. In doing so, there is a readiness to discount differences and other things that spoil the association.
> 
> Getting personal, I was surprised to see George Washington in the same 'group' as me (R-L2). Now George W. had a beak (prominent nose). I have a beak too. Some artists tried to hide this, but there are enough extant portraits from various angles that it is clear that he had a honker - a big nose. A main difference (there are others) is that my coloration is Med, while his is northern European. (I actually said, 'son of a *****' when I saw his being there in 'my' line as I knew of the nose similarity for some time.) And it is clear that George W. was viewed (thought of, but also visage) as somewhat of an odd personage. It was likely his early success in the American war of independence, his intelligence, his integrity and his cunning (he was quite skilled at espionage arts) that sustained him from being removed as the war dragged out and his results flagged. I'm saying that appearance matters (especially in the USA), but that success matters more. Therefore his 'oddness' was overlooked so that all could associate themselves with him and his success. It is what we are.
> 
> If you cannot identify with this, think of casual sports fans who become rabid fans when a team/their team is on the cusp of winning or have won a championship - same thing.
> 
> As a Greek lineage person, I see the effect in the interwwebz discussion from several racial/ethnic groups which I won't name who repeatedly want to associate this person/tribe/entire Greek lineage to their own, even carrying over into at least the 20th century Greek persons. I should be flattered for my people but I think about the ignorance of so many that will believe this crap.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/famo...shtml#R1b-U152


It* is* difficult for me to understand. I'm just not that kind of person. I'm satisfied with my own people's achievements; I don't need to appropriate those of others in order to have a sense of self-esteem. Indeed, my sense of self-esteem comes first and foremost from what I have done in my own life, and I don't mean only or primarily in terms of my profession or financial success. Although no longer a believer, I was educated by nuns and priests. Like it or not, they had a profound influence on my life. One of them, whenever she heard one of us bragging about one thing or another, or competing, would say: "Remember, you're only great if you're great in the eyes of God." By your character and your deeds shall you be judged. :) 

George Washington was considered a rather unattractive man, but it wasn't primarily because he had a large nose. :) I think the biggest issue was because they had to pull all his teeth and he had to wear these big yellow dentures. My favorite American president, Abraham Lincoln, was also considered unattractive, but again, it wasn't about his nose; it was about his coloring, his gauntness, his extreme height and thinness, his heavy eye-brow ridges and deep set eyes. 


From everything I've read about the history and sociology of Britain and other parts of Europe, a large nose on a man was considered a sign of strength, dominance, and masculinity, and nothing to cause concern. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=VC...20&f=falseJust a few examples:

Perhaps the most popular French king: Henri IV of Navarre


Francois I had an even more extreme nose.

Sir Thomas More:


Robert Peel:


Wordsworth:


They may not have been the majority, but they weren't described as unattractive. 

A modern example is Richard Armitage, whom I consider extremely attractive. His nose is described in the British press as "elegant". I agree.

----------


## last-resort

> George Washington was considered a rather unattractive man, but it wasn't primarily because he had a large nose. :) I think the biggest issue was because they had to pull all his teeth and he had to wear these big yellow dentures. My favorite American president, Abraham Lincoln, was also considered unattractive, but again, it wasn't about his nose; it was about his coloring, his gauntness, his extreme height and thinness, his heavy eye-brow ridges and deep set eyes.


 This is from #406. The phenotype issue wasn't my point as you may note. And, I do not agree with the 'same face, same race' viewpoint. Greeks in particular have a range of skin, hair, and face color/conformations. And though we are mostly average to tall in height, there are some shorties too. I have two 1st cousins with fair skin and blue eyes (average to tall height and 'normal' noses) and they can trace their lineage to the late 18th century. I have darker skin and hazel eyes (tall with a honker nose) and can trace my lineage on my mother's side to the late 18th century, and on my father's side to roughly the early 19th century.

As to George Washington, the wooden teeth is no longer fully accepted. He had some sophistication, imported European goods, socialized in the upper circles of the colonies, married well, etc. It is very unlikely that the teeth shown at Mount Vernon were his 'Sunday go to meeting' teeth. Lincoln likely had a disease, Marfan syndrome, which affects generally everything odd about him.

As to noses, I do not disagree regarding large noses being common in Europe. I was surprised to see film of German troops during WW2 and how large the noses were on so many of them. I suppose Paul Joseph Goebbels and others may have looked down their noses at others, but didn't look into the mirror thoroughly. It is the aspect of ignoring what disagrees with your beliefs.

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## Odysseus

Very Interesting , thank you for sharing.

----------


## Nik

> This is from #406. The phenotype issue wasn't my point as you may note. And, I do not agree with the 'same face, same race' viewpoint. Greeks in particular have a range of skin, hair, and face color/conformations. And though we are mostly average to tall in height, there are some shorties too. I have two 1st cousins with fair skin and blue eyes (average to tall height and 'normal' noses) and they can trace their lineage to the late 18th century. I have darker skin and hazel eyes (tall with a honker nose) and can trace my lineage on my mother's side to the late 18th century, and on my father's side to roughly the early 19th century.


Then u must be some sort of Dinaroid + East Med like the Cypriots.

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## Angela

> Then u must be some sort of Dinaroid + East Med like the Cypriots.


Is that supposed to be a pejorative description? My husband's paternal grandfather (from Calabria) had a "Dinaric" type skull and nose (although he was light brown haired and light eyed). I always thought that the pictures of him as a man in his prime showed a quite handsome, dignified man.

It seems to me there's an awful lot of "Dinaric" skulls and noses throughout the upper Balkans, and particularly in Albania. No? You can, in fact, find them throughout western Europe, in particular, perhaps a relic of Bell Beaker?

Can you guys ever have a civil conversation?

----------


## Nik

> Is that supposed to be a pejorative description? My husband's paternal grandfather (from Calabria) had a "Dinaric" type skull and nose (although he was light brown haired and light eyed). I always thought that the pictures of him as a man in his prime showed a quite handsome, dignified man.
> 
> It seems to me there's an awful lot of "Dinaric" skulls and noses throughout the upper Balkans, and particularly in Albania. No? You can, in fact, find them throughout western Europe, in particular, perhaps a relic of Bell Beaker?
> 
> Can you guys ever have a civil conversation?


 Take a sit, Angela. I am a Dinaroid myself just like almost everyone in the region I come from. Was that a paranoia induced reaction, assuming everything an ethnic Albanian says must be some sort of personal attack as we lack the ability to have a civil conversation?

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## Hauteville

A lot of Southern Italians are Dinaricized Mediterranean, and many Greeks I know too.

----------


## last-resort

> Then u must be some sort of Dinaroid + East Med like the Cypriots.


 from #409 Actually some of the wiki description of Dinaric fits - tall, long arms, large nose; but my nose is neither narrow nor convex. As to the skull shape, I have no idea as I won't take the time to learn the technical specs. But my skull isn't round. Also, as to rosy color of skin, mine is there in spades (obvious) as my diet has increased with Omega 3 oil (fish and flax seed meal) in spite of the olive tone. My 1st cousins (maternal) had it from first memory of them. As to East Med? define it and I'll comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race

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## last-resort

> A lot of Southern Italians are Dinaricized Mediterranean, and many Greeks I know too.


 Glad to see you are still living. You owe me and others a response to my #245 in which I noted that your #216 comment was not based on the study, but in fact asserted that the Tsakones had Albanian etc admixture, directly in conflict with the study findings. I challenged you to support your assertions.

Nik in his #159 provided a language map that showed no Albanian communities in or near the Tsakones nor the 'Deep Mani' populations.
I must conclude that you are a provocateur and otherwise, reckless and unreliable.

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## Angela

> Glad to see you are still living. You owe me and others a response to my #245 in which I noted that your #216 comment was not based on the study, but in fact asserted that the Tsakones had Albanian etc admixture, directly in conflict with the study findings. I challenged you to support your assertions.
> 
> Nik in his #159 provided a language map that showed no Albanian communities in or near the Tsakones nor the 'Deep Mani' populations.
> I must conclude that you are a provocateur and otherwise, reckless and unreliable.


Keep a civil tongue in your mouth or you can take a hiatus as well. 

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? The Albanians were not studied by these researchers. How could anyone say how they fit in genetically? *PLUS, SINCE THEY WEREN'T STUDIED,* *THEY ARE OFF TOPIC! GET IT?


PROLONGED discussions of anthropology and head shapes is also off topic.* We're getting too far off topic.Take it to the anthropology section.

@Nik,
You can never go wrong underestimating all of you apparently.

@Christos,
That's all very interesting, but the genetics has spoken. These Greeks are different from mainland Greeks. Now, the admixture may be very ancient. That's a different issue.

----------


## Nik

> from #409 Actually some of the wiki description of Dinaric fits - tall, long arms, large nose; but my nose is neither narrow nor convex. As to the skull shape, I have no idea as I won't take the time to learn the technical specs. But my skull isn't round. Also, as to rosy color of skin, mine is there in spades (obvious) as my diet has increased with Omega 3 oil (fish and flax seed meal) in spite of the olive tone. My 1st cousins (maternal) had it from first memory of them. As to East Med? define it and I'll comment.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race


Since you're Greek I assumed it would be hard to find full Dinarics nowadays unless you're mostly from some remote fully Arvanite/Epirote/Acarnanian mountainous community. So just a guess. And since your nose is not narrow, then that's not a Dinaric trait. I dont have a convex nose either, and according to Coon, more than 70% of my region's ppl have straight noses and still fully Dinaric, so the big nosed Dinaric guy is just an exaggeration and a feature that develops with age. I assumed East Med since you said you're darker (I guess olive skin tone) and Dinarics are quite pale if not mixed, and green-hazel eyes are a rule for up to 70% of the group. 

@Angela
You can simply ask me and I'll answer very honestly for any doubt that you might have, and make your life easier :P 

Since we're here, I'll admit that I'm a Dinaricist or whatever you can call a person who is proud of being a Dinaroid. So no need to accuse me of nationalism, Nordicism, etc., as that's the only thing I kind of care.

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## Angela

The next person who posts anything that is part of these unending Balkan grudge matches is going to get an infraction. I already gave one out today and I'll happily give out more. I don't care who it is. 

You people can't be given even a little lee way or you'll turn this into a symbolic Balkan war.

Post on the paper or don't post at all.

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## LABERIA

> The next person who posts anything that is part of these unending Balkan grudge matches is going to get an infraction. I already gave one out today and I'll happily give out more. I don't care who it is. 
> 
> You people can't be given even a little lee way or you'll turn this into a symbolic Balkan war.
> 
> Post on the paper or don't post at all.


Why my post was deleted? I am talking about the post where i explained to christo that it is not true that christian Albanians didn't married with muslim Albanians. So, someone who post something off topic and totally inaccurate is allowed to do this. Meanwhile when someone try to explain what is wrong, this post is deleted. 
You think this is normal?

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## Angela

The whole series of posts was deleted, including the one to which you responded.

One more attempt to resist moderation and you get another infraction.

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## Diomedes

Interesting article indeed. I do not understand the hate some people have though. It is well known that the peoples around the Mediterranean sea have many commonalities. This is expected, even the ancient Greek mythology talks about this.

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## LeBrok

> Interesting article indeed. I do not understand the hate some people have though. It is well known that the peoples around the Mediterranean sea have many commonalities. This is expected, even the ancient Greek mythology talks about this.


I totally agree. I'm baffled why people are not concentrated on commonalities and cooperation but mostly on differences and hate.
Welcome to Eupedia Diomedes.

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## Tomenable

Greeks, post your Eurogenes K36 scores or send me your GEDmatch kit numbers.

Then I will run this K36-based Oracle - *with regional Greek populations* - for you:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4337714

Reference populations in this Oracle include (among other things):

GR_Peloponese
GR_Central
GR_Epirus
GR_Macedonia
GR_Ikaria
GR_Chios
GR_Kythera
GR_Andros
GR_Istanbul
GR_Pontic
GR_Crete
GR_Eubea
GR_Cyclades
GR_Kalymnos

Albania_North
Albania_South

Sicily_Messina
Sicily_Catania
Sicily_Trapani
Sicily_Ragusa
Sicily_Agrigento
Sicily_Palermo
Sicily_Caltanisetta
Sicily_Calabria

North_Italy
IT_Veneto

We are still expanding it, adding new reference samples.  :Smile:  You can help us in expanding this Oracle by sending me GEDmatch kits or K36 scores of people + info about their geographical & ethnic origin.

People with mixed origin (ancestors from several different regions) will also be useful.

----------


## Ponto

I can't see what the problems are with the paper. It deals with Peloponessian Greeks specifically not other Greeks and their supposed Slavic ancestry. Yes they have Slavic ancestry but it is minor and does not connect them to Russian, Belorussians or Poles except by using Sicilians are a doormat, similarly these Greeks are not connected to Levantines except when using Cypriots as an entrance. What that means is that those Greeks are Southern Europeans with some Slavic ancestry and some Near Eastern ancestry but not enough to sift them closer to West and East Slavic groups or Near Easterners.

Tomenable you can run mine. I am not Greek but I was born in Malta of that ethnic group, the Sicilians should do. A829596, enjoy.

----------


## Tomenable

> Tomenable you can run mine. I am not Greek but I was born in Malta of that ethnic group, the Sicilians should do. A829596, enjoy.


Thanks! 

Your results (it seems that Least-square is more accurate for you, for some other people Gaussian is more accurate):

36 components mode.
Population data has been read. 169 populations found.
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Person: Ponto.txt
Threshold of components set to 0,25%


*Least-squares method:*


Using 1 population approximation:
*1 GR_Crete @ 7,2103*
2 IT_Calabria @ 7,532387
3 Askhenazi @ 7,749383
4 GR_Ikaria @ 7,893593
5 Sicily_Catania @ 7,932873
6 Gr_Chios @ 8,127376
7 Sicily_Palermo @ 8,608854
8 Gr_Kalymnos @ 8,67463
9 Sicily_Agrigento @ 8,86955
10 Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 8,894828
11 Sicily_Trapani @ 9,14557
12 Sicily_Messina @ 9,164809
13 Gr_Andros @ 9,348261
14 GR_Kythera @ 9,385857
15 Sicily_Ragusa @ 9,399389
16 GR_Cyclades @ 9,904955
17 Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro @ 10,057388
18 GR_Pontic @ 12,481887
19 GR_Peloponese2 @ 12,503601
20 Cyprus @ 12,847759
169 iterations.


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Crete+Askhenazi @ 6,734663
2 GR_Ikaria+Askhenazi @ 6,749652
3 IT_Calabria+Askhenazi @ 6,815669
4 Sicily_Catania+GR_Crete @ 6,872305
5 IT_Calabria+GR_Crete @ 6,902947
6 Sicily_Palermo+GR_Crete @ 6,991024
7 Sicily_Catania+Askhenazi @ 7,061382
8 Gr_Chios+Askhenazi @ 7,122052
9 Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Crete @ 7,126335
10 Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Crete @ 7,127174
11 Gr_Kalymnos+Askhenazi @ 7,182377
12 GR_Crete+GR_Crete @ 7,2103
13 Sicily_Trapani+GR_Crete @ 7,226868
14 Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Ikaria @ 7,252398
15 Sicily_Messina+GR_Crete @ 7,25857
16 IT_Calabria+GR_Ikaria @ 7,266391
17 GR_Ikaria+GR_Crete @ 7,297007
18 Sicily_Catania+GR_Ikaria @ 7,310207
19 Gr_Chios+GR_Crete @ 7,311828
20 Albania_North+Cyprus @ 7,346071
14365 iterations.


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicily_Catania +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 5,962292
2 50% IT_Calabria +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,18459
3 50% Sicily_Palermo +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,203896
4 50% Sicily_Agrigento +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,214216
5 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,337028
6 50% Sicily_Catania +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Syria_Liban @ 6,351826
7 50% Cyprus +25% Albania_North +25% Askhenazi @ 6,362344
8 50% Askhenazi +25% Albania_North +25% Cyprus @ 6,368088
9 50% IT_Calabria +25% Albania_North +25% Syria_Liban @ 6,376295
10 50% Askhenazi +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,403051
11 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,409792
12 50% Sicily_Catania +25% Albania_North +25% Syria_Liban @ 6,416593
13 50% Sicily_Messina +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Cyprus @ 6,435859
14 50% IT_Calabria +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Jordan @ 6,45828
15 50% Sicily_Catania +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Jordan @ 6,473686
16 50% IT_Calabria +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Syria_Liban @ 6,476226
17 50% Sicily_Catania +25% GR_Istanbul +25% Samaritan @ 6,480416
18 50% Cyprus +25% Sicily_Palermo +25% Albania_North @ 6,520668
19 50% Cyprus +25% Sicily_Agrigento +25% Albania_North @ 6,538867
20 50% Cyprus +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% GR_Istanbul @ 6,578124
1261641 iterations.


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Sicily_Catania+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 5,947003
2 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 5,955709
3 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Catania+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 5,962292
4 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,023538
5 Sicily_Catania+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,024005
6 IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,052993
7 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,074722
8 Sicily_Catania+GR_Istanbul+Albania_North+Samaritan @ 6,080229
9 Sicily_Agrigento+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,082557
10 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Istanbul+Cyp rus @ 6,10207
11 Sicily_Palermo+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,112445
12 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Catania+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,126987
13 Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,129767
14 Sicily_Agrigento+Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,139736
15 Sicily_Trapani+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,146787
16 Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,164613
17 Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,169767
18 Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,182284
19 IT_Calabria+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,18459
20 Sicily_Messina+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,195545
21 Sicily_Palermo+Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,203896
22 Sicily_Catania+GR_Istanbul+GR_Crete+Cyprus @ 6,206711
23 Sicily_Messina+IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,208367
24 Sicily_Agrigento+Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+Cypr us @ 6,214216
25 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,216714
26 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,21686
27 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,234341
28 Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Istanbul+GR_Crete+Cyprus @ 6,243297
29 Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+GR_Crete+Cyprus @ 6,245533
30 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,249109
31 IT_Calabria+GR_Istanbul+Albania_North+Samaritan @ 6,252833
32 Sicily_Agrigento+Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Istanbul+C yprus @ 6,253205
33 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Palermo+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,253236
34 Sicily_Ragusa+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,259532
35 Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Istanbul+Askhenazi+Cyprus @ 6,261167
36 Sicily_Palermo+Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Istanbul+Cyp rus @ 6,273549
37 Sicily_Trapani+GR_Istanbul+GR_Crete+Cyprus @ 6,284
38 Sicily_Agrigento+GR_Ikaria+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,284773
39 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+GR_Istanbul+Cyprus @ 6,290408
40 Sicily_Catania+GR_Cyclades+Albania_North+Samaritan @ 6,290944
6961930 iterations.


*Gaussian method:*
Noise dispersion set to 0,130062


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,275761
2 Sicily_Messina @ 4,354861
3 Sicily_Trapani @ 4,374926
4 Sicily_Catania @ 4,42301
5 Sicily_Palermo @ 4,571761
*6 Gr_Andros @ 4,658713*
7 IT_Calabria @ 4,708461
8 Sicily_Agrigento @ 5,053071
9 Askhenazi @ 5,10174
10 GR_Crete @ 5,162542
11 Sicily_Ragusa @ 5,40961
12 Gr_Chios @ 5,455618
13 Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro @ 5,975535
14 Gr_Eubea @ 6,977098
15 GR_Kythera @ 7,540902
16 Albania_South @ 7,664939
17 GR_Macedonia2 @ 7,82946
18 GR_Peloponese2 @ 7,902475
19 Albania_North @ 7,914712
20 GR_Cyclades @ 8,808431
169 iterations.


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria @ 4,189254
2 Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabria @ 4,217901
3 Sicily_Trapani+Cyprus @ 4,236953
4 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,261995
5 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Cyprus @ 4,26889
6 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani @ 4,273499
7 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,275761
8 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,32652
9 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,342543
10 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Messina @ 4,354861
11 Sicily_Trapani+GR_Crete @ 4,362484
12 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani @ 4,364893
13 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani @ 4,374926
14 IT_Calabria+Gr_Andros @ 4,386195
15 Sicily_Trapani+Gr_Kalymnos @ 4,387341
16 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Catania @ 4,394923
17 Sicily_Messina+Gr_Andros @ 4,405989
18 Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Crete @ 4,409015
19 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Catania @ 4,42301
20 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Gr_Kalymnos @ 4,424976
14365 iterations.


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Cyprus @ 4,118969
2 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% Cyprus @ 4,130241
3 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% Cyprus @ 4,134091
4 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% IT_Calabria +25% Cyprus @ 4,135139
5 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Cyprus @ 4,136336
6 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Messina +25% Cyprus @ 4,139058
7 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Gr_Kalymnos +25% Samaritan @ 4,139066
8 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% IT_Calabria +25% Samaritan @ 4,151407
9 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Sicily_Messina +25% Cyprus @ 4,156922
10 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% GR_Kythera +25% Samaritan @ 4,162876
11 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% IT_Calabria +25% Cyprus @ 4,172879
12 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% Samaritan @ 4,180381
13 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% IT_Calabria +25% IT_Calabria @ 4,189254
14 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Catania +25% Cyprus @ 4,19067
15 50% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Sicily_Catania +25% Cyprus @ 4,191194
16 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Caltanisetta +25% Samaritan @ 4,201883
17 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Messina +25% Samaritan @ 4,205949
18 50% IT_Calabria +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Caltanisetta @ 4,209944
19 50% Sicily_Messina +25% Sicily_Trapani +25% Cyprus @ 4,210935
20 50% Sicily_Trapani +25% Sicily_Catania +25% Samaritan @ 4,21116
2050496 iterations.


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Cal tanisetta+Cyprus @ 4,118969
2 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+Cyprus @ 4,130241
3 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Cypru s @ 4,134091
4 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria+Cyprus @ 4,135139
5 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Cyprus @ 4,136336
6 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Cypru s @ 4,139058
7 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Gr_Kalymnos+Samarita n @ 4,139066
8 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Cyprus @ 4,15008
9 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria+Samarita n @ 4,151407
10 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabria+Cyp rus @ 4,156091
11 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+Cyprus @ 4,156922
12 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+GR_Kythera+Samaritan @ 4,162876
13 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabri a+Cyprus @ 4,172879
14 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Samar itan @ 4,180381
15 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria+IT_Calab ria @ 4,189254
16 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Cypru s @ 4,19067
17 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+Cyprus @ 4,191194
18 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Cyprus @ 4,191863
19 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabria+Sam aritan @ 4,193581
20 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Gr_Kalymnos+Sam aritan @ 4,196605
21 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Samaritan @ 4,201883
22 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Samar itan @ 4,205949
23 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabria+IT_ Calabria @ 4,209944
24 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Cypru s @ 4,210935
25 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Samar itan @ 4,21116
26 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+Samaritan @ 4,213803
27 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabri a+IT_Calabria @ 4,217901
28 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Cal tanisetta+IT_Calabria @ 4,21913
29 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Cal tanisetta+Samaritan @ 4,222077
30 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Palermo+Cypru s @ 4,222502
31 Sicily_Palermo+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+Cyprus @ 4,225602
32 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+Gr_Kalymnos+Cyprus @ 4,225797
33 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Trapani+IT_Ca labria @ 4,225981
34 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Palermo+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Cyprus @ 4,226351
35 Sicily_Catania+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ Samaritan @ 4,230666
36 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanis etta+IT_Calabria @ 4,231289
37 Sicily_Caltanisetta+Sicily_Caltanisetta+IT_Calabri a+Samaritan @ 4,231381
38 Sicily_Trapani+IT_Calabria+GR_Pontic+Samaritan @ 4,231928
39 Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+GR_Kythera+Sama ritan @ 4,232461
40 Sicily_Messina+Sicily_Trapani+Sicily_Caltanisetta+ IT_Calabria @ 4,233385
25802158 iterations.

======================

So your ancestors are ethnic Greeks who came to Malta? Do you know what regional group of Greeks they are?

----------


## Hauteville

> Greeks, post your Eurogenes K36 scores or send me your GEDmatch kit numbers.
> 
> Then I will run this K36-based Oracle - *with regional Greek populations* - for you:
> 
> http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4337714
> 
> Reference populations in this Oracle include (among other things):
> 
> GR_Peloponese
> ...


I see a Sicily_Calabria who means nothing, Calabria is another region. Anyway are those samples really reliable?are they used from a peer-rewieved study or just unknown GEDmatch-ones?

----------


## Tomenable

Yeah, it is actually *IT_Calabria*, not Sicily_Calabria.

I don't think that peer-reviewed studies go into such detail when it comes to micro-regional breakdown.




> or just unknown GEDmatch-ones?


GEDmatch ones, but well-known ones (people who report their ancestry from these parts of the island).

----------


## Hauteville

Italian peer-rewieved studies divided Italy into regions and regions into provinces. So yes, they are a lot detailed and more than GEDmatch.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Yeah, it is actually *IT_Calabria*, not Sicily_Calabria.
> 
> I don't think that peer-reviewed studies go into such detail when it comes to micro-regional breakdown.
> 
> GEDmatch ones, but well-known ones (people who report their ancestry from these parts of the island).


Micro-regional breakdown based on what? On Sikeliot's samples? Are you kidding us? C'mon, on GEDmatch there are no informations about the province of origin. If you don't speak Italian, and none of you does, it's very hard to find the real origin of a GEDmatch kit.

You're using GEDmatch kits found with the one-to-many, your samples obviously lack accuracy. Not by coincidence you're doing that on the Apricity, one of the least reliable forum.

If someone wants to go into such detail, into a micro-regional breakdown, he should be much more accurate than usual, but you are doing exactly the opposite.

----------


## Hauteville

The only thing to get accurate information on GEDmatch is to send them an email and ask where are from all their known ancestors.

----------


## Tomenable

> Italian peer-rewieved studies divided Italy into regions and regions into provinces. So yes, they are a lot detailed and more than GEDmatch.


If they uploaded their samples somewhere in the internet then we can download them, convert to format accepted by GEDmatch, upload, see what they score in Eurogenes K36 and add them to reference populations. But some genomes are not public. I wanted to add these 15 Western Poles from Human Origins, but these samples are not public:

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2016...s-dataset.html

*BTW:
*
This is Davidski's result (seems consistent with his mixed Baltic Polish + Western Polish origin):

http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/0...-gedmatch.html

36 components mode.
Population data has been read. 169 populations found.
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Person: Davidski.txt
Threshold of components set to 0,25%

*Least-squares method:*

Using 1 population approximation:
*1 PL_Mazovia_Podlachia @ 7,436507
2 Pl_Kashubians @ 7,538554
3 PL_average @ 7,846317*
4 Russian_Bryansk @ 8,537448
*5 PL_West_Beskid @ 8,954606*
6 Belarusian_East @ 9,320142
7 Belarusian_Polesye @ 9,471687
8 Russian_Voronezh @ 10,156305
9 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 10,566169
10 Russian_Oryol @ 10,787786
11 Russian_Smolensk @ 10,951148
*12 PL_Sudovia @ 11,050906
13 PL_Lesser_Poland @ 11,121274*
14 Russian_Kursk @ 11,144745
*15 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 11,288698*
16 Ukrainian_West @ 11,536164
17 Russian_Center @ 11,71206
*18 PL_Subcarpathia @ 12,077631*
19 Ukrainian_East @ 12,241989
20 Russian_Meshtchyora @ 13,141305
169 iterations.

*Using 2 populations approximation:
1 PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid @ 5,620053*
2 Russian_Bryansk+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,266282
3 Lithuanian+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,486452
4 Latvian+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,810187
5 Russian_Bryansk+Pl_Kashubians @ 6,833668
6 Belarusian_East+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,849917
7 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+Pl_Kashubians @ 6,88214
8 Pl_Kashubians+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,936759
9 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_West_Beskid @ 6,97595
10 Ukrainian_West+PL_Sudovia @ 7,121046
11 PL_average+PL_Sudovia @ 7,141337
12 Lithuanian+German_Prussia @ 7,174647
13 Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia @ 7,257646
14 Belarusian_East+Pl_Kashubians @ 7,309865
15 Russian_Bryansk+PL_average @ 7,317851
16 Pl_Kashubians+PL_average @ 7,362327
17 Russian_Voronezh+PL_West_Beskid @ 7,405937
18 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_average @ 7,434186
19 PL_Mazovia_Podlasie+PL_Mazovia_Podlasie @ 7,436507
20 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov+PL_West_Beskid @ 7,438911
14365 iterations.

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Bryansk +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,412205
2 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Tver +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,413913
3 50% PL_West_Beskid+25% Pl_Kashubians +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,536346
4 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Lithuanian +25% Pl_Kashubians @ 5,579993
5 50% PL_West_Beskid+25% Russian_Novgorod_Yaroslavl +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,612813
6 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Voronezh +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,614329
7 50% PL_Sudovia +25% PL_West_Beskid +25% PL_West_Beskid @ 5,620053
8 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Belarusian_East +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,68815
9 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Russian_Meshtchyora +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,706588
10 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% PL_Mazovia_Podlasie +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,720267
11 50% PL_West_Beskid +25% Lithuanian +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,734397
12 50% Pl_Kashubians +25% PL_Sudovia +25% PL_West_Beskid @ 5,744897
(...)

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Russian_Bryansk+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_ Beskid @ 5,412205
2 Russian_Tver+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Bes kid @ 5,413913
*3 Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Be skid @ 5,536346*
4 Lithuanian+Pl_Kashubians+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Be skid @ 5,579993
5 Russian_Bryansk+Pl_Kashubians+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_B [email protected] 5,59688
6 Russian_Novgorod_Yaroslavl+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Besk id+PL_West_Beskid @ 5,612813
7 Russian_Voronezh+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West _Beskid @ 5,614329
8 PL_Sudovia+PL_Sudovia+PL_West_Beskid+PL_West_Beski d @ 5,620053
(...)

----------


## Pax Augusta

> The only thing to get accurate information on GEDmatch is to send them an email and ask where are from all their known ancestors.


Not to mention, that actually many Sicilians have grandparents from different parts of the island. Does really exist someone who is fully from Palermo, Catania, Trapani? °_O

----------


## Hauteville

> Not to mention, that actually many Sicilians have grandparents from different parts of the island. Does really exist someone who is fully from Palermo, Catania, Trapani? °_O


Indeed, for example myself i've great-grandparents from Palermo, Catania, Ragusa, Messina. Modern Palermitans for example descendent from people all over Sicily and Mainland Italy.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> If they uploaded their samples somewhere in the internet then we can download them and convert to format accepted by GEDmatch, upload on GEDmatch, see what they score in Eurogenes K36 and add them to reference populations. But some genomes are not public. For example I wanted to add these 15 Western Poles from Humna Origins, but these samples are not public:


Tomenable, we are not dumb. The samples for Greece and Sicily are from Sikeliot, aka Portuguese Princess, the American guy who has spent the last 5 years harassing Italians on forums. What do I have to deduce? 

*"mlukas :Thanks to Sikeliot samples for Greece and Sicily those regions are modeled quite good."*

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...-results/page4





> Indeed, for example myself i've great-grandparents from Palermo, Catania, Ragusa, Messina. Modern Palermitans for example descendent from people all over Sicily and Mainland Italy.


A micro-regional breakdown, lol. They are so ridiculous.

----------


## Tomenable

Sikeliot was just one of many sources. Also for example *Percivalle* contributed Italian samples:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/mem...530-Percivalle

Percivalle contributed ~70 Italian GEDmatch IDs with verified ancestry and regional breakdown.

Not sure why Mlukas forgot to mention him.

----------


## Hauteville

I do not want to debate at all costs, but to have a Sicilian regional breakdown you need a large number of Sicilian sample with people who have 4/4 grandparents all born in the same province and city. And these Sicilian samples do not exist on Gedmatch because the majoirity of Sicilians on Gedmatch have grandparents from different Sicilian provinces. they represent Sicily as whole but not a specific area.

----------


## Angela

Why are you guys discussing Italian genetics and specifically micro-regional differences in Sicily on a thread about the genetics of the Peloponnesus? You're not even trying to connect that with similarities to the Peloponnesus. It just seems like the same old, same old from anthrofora. Cut it out.

@Tomenable,
Where have you been? Did you miss all the Boattini papers, or the papers that provided the samples from places like the Piemonte/Emilia border? A lot of the Italian papers specifically are trying to capture micro-regional differences, and they are ensuring the suitability of their samples by checking that all four grandparents are from the same area. Sometimes they even go further and cull for non-local surnames.

How can you possibly compare the reliability of results like those to data at gedmatch based on self-reporting, and especially in a country like Italy with so much recent internal migration? The same goes for Greece. That was a rhetorical question: you can't. 

In my own area someone could say, perfectly correctly, that they're from northwestern Toscana, but they could have a mother from Calabria. Some Greek posters have already said they have grandparents from various parts of Greece and even Anatolia. It's ridiculous to imagine, imo, that you could use gedmatch samples for this purpose.

Now, let's get back on topic.

----------


## Tomenable

Well dividing Sicily into so many subregions is a bit of a stretch.

We could just make one "Sicily" reference population instead.  :Smile: 

But Sikeliot wanted to see how different parts of Sicily plot.

----------


## Tomenable

I often have detailed info about ancestry of these people. For example my "PL_West_Beskid" reference is one person so far (most reference populations are between 10 and 100 people, only a few are single persons).

One person, but *31 out of his 32 g-g-great-grandparents* are from the same region.

----------


## Angela

> Well dividing Sicily into so many subregions is a bit of a stretch.
> 
> We could just make one "Sicily" reference population instead. 
> 
> But Sikeliot wanted to see how different parts of Sicily plot.


No, now that he's found that half of his 100,000 posts are worthless because of the study on the genetics of the Peloponnesus and a comparison of those genomes with ones from Sicily, he wants to try to save the other half of his posts, the ones on regionality within Sicily.

If someone wants to compare the different areas of Sicily there are academic samples from various areas. Contact the authors and ask if the genomes are publicly available or can be made publicly available, or, at the least, contact gedmatch testees by e-mail if that's possible, and try to ascertain if all four grandparents are from one area. It's not as good as checking records, but it's better than what's being proposed here. Oh, and I wouldn't trust the results unless I saw the documentation for those e-mails, especially since one of the people involved is of proven mendacity. I'm sure you know or are learning about impeached witnesses and the effect on credibility.

Of course, you can do as you wish. Just don't expect people to give it very high reliability.

----------


## Angela

The creator of the MDLP calculator seems to have the academic regional Sicilian samples. Perhaps he could provide them, or at least indicate where he go them so the source could be contacted.

I'd still advise, however, against drawing any dogmatic conclusions. In places around Messina, for example, the dna would come from all over Sicily because large parts of it were destroyed by earthquake and people from all over Sicily re-populated it. You have to know something of the history of different areas to draw intelligent conclusions.

----------


## Hauteville

> The creator of the MDLP calculator seems to have the academic regional Sicilian samples. Perhaps he could provide them, or at least indicate where he go them so the source could be contacted.
> 
> I'd still advise, however, against drawing any dogmatic conclusions. In places around Messina, for example, the dna would come from all over Sicily because large parts of it were destroyed by earthquake and people from all over Sicily re-populated it. You have to know something of the history of different areas to draw intelligent conclusions.


Also Calabrese and a little number of North East Italians (from Caporetto) settled to Messina after 1908 earthquake. Only 5000 original Messinese survived.

----------


## Tomenable

Using this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/Europe.htm

I calculated genetically predicted locations of regional Greek samples:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post506532

----------


## Beelzebub

> The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the *Peloponnese* with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others*.* Those groups are indeed on a cline, but *the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians. 
> *
> My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?
> 
> Attachment 8550
> 
> Click to enlarge. 
> 
> The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia. 
> ...


I'm assuming that *Peloponnese also overlap with Southern mainland Italians?
*

----------


## Beelzebub

> No, now that he's found that half of his 100,000 posts are worthless because of the study on the genetics of the Peloponnesus and a comparison of those genomes with ones from Sicily, he wants to try to save the other half of his posts, the ones on regionality within Sicily.
> 
> If someone wants to compare the different areas of Sicily there are academic samples from various areas. Contact the authors and ask if the genomes are publicly available or can be made publicly available, or, at the least, contact gedmatch testees by e-mail if that's possible, and try to ascertain if all four grandparents are from one area. It's not as good as checking records, but it's better than what's being proposed here. Oh, and I wouldn't trust the results unless I saw the documentation for those e-mails, especially since one of the people involved is of proven mendacity. I'm sure you know or are learning about impeached witnesses and the effect on credibility.
> 
> Of course, you can do as you wish. Just don't expect people to give it very high reliability.


Sikeliot is obsessed with whitewashing all mainland Greeks and separating them from Sicilians/Southern Italians. 
Apparently cherry-picking regional samples is preferable to admitting he was wrong.
Sikeliot is of the frame of mind that Greek Islands are like Mars compared to mainland Greece.
My theory on why Sikeliot isolates Southern Italians and Sicilians, is related to his longstanding flame war with Italic Roots.

----------


## ihype02

From George Finlay on Arbanites:
In the Peloponnesus they are still more numerous. They occupy the whole of *Corinthia* and *Argolis*, extending themselves into the northern part of Arcadia and the eastern part of Achaia.



See Corinthia and Argolis, you draw your own conclusions if those results do indeed come from antiquity.

----------


## Seanp

K36 is an amateurish calculator and it shouldn't be taken seriously. While this work is professional and used verified samples from both Greece and Italy and I don't think any of the professional genealogists have any agendas to favor certain people unlike amateur bloggers like Dienekes Pontikos **Cough Cough**

----------


## Angela

Actually, I can't think of much he was wrong about, unlike Eurogenes, who has so many wrong predictions to his credit they'd fill the phone directory of a small town. Of course, you won't be able to find them now, because unlike Dienekes, he scrubs his blog.

Plus, the data is now clear. The difference between mainland Greeks and southern Italians is small, as anyone with a brain in his head should always have known. Whatever the various sub-structures in Greece, none of them are anywhere near Ukrainians.

Oh, and just to stop the disinformation and re-writing of history, the majority of Sickeliot's 100,000 posts full of cherry-picked photos and data were online before Italic Roots was created. If anything, that site could be labeled the "Anti-Sikeliot" blog.

----------


## Seanp

> Actually, I can't think of much he was wrong about, unlike Eurogenes, who has so many wrong predictions to his credit they'd fill the phone directory of a small town. Of course, you won't be able to find them now, because unlike Dienekes, he scrubs his blog.
> 
> Plus, the data is now clear. The difference between mainland Greeks and southern Italians is small, as anyone with a brain in his head should always have known. Whatever the various sub-structures in Greece, none of them are anywhere near Ukrainians.
> 
> Oh, and just to stop the disinformation and re-writing of history, the majority of Sickeliot's 100,000 posts full of cherry-picked photos and data were online before Italic Roots was created. If anything, that site could be labeled the "Anti-Sikeliot" blog.


Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources. 
Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations. 

This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward. 
It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average. 

It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.

----------


## Yetos

> Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixtures at least for people of North European ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. 
> Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations. 
> 
> This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward. 
> It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average. 
> 
> It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.



but that is big true,
among Greeks and Turks the gene stream flow as also the milleniums of admixture 
I also suggest Hellenistic kingdoms, East Roman empire history, and even some books in christian bibble, will help

it is very different to extract models in Mediterrenean than in Atlantic and North Europe
take for Instance Iceland,
well known history, typical you expect Scan and some Irish until 1950's
but what about Middle East Mediterennean N Africa? 
there even the most humble gene mark can mean a lot,

----------


## Seanp

> but that is big true,
> among Greeks and Turks the gene stream flow as also the milleniums of admixture 
> I also suggest Hellenistic kingdoms, East Roman empire history, and even some books in christian bibble, will help


How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.

----------


## Angela

> Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources. 
> Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations. 
> 
> This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward. 
> It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average. 
> 
> *It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs.* I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.


What disabled person? Sickeliot? You have access to his medical and psychiatric files? What slurs did I use? A description of someone's posts is not a slur; it's a statement of fact.*

As for the rest, give me a break. I never in my life saw racist comments by Dienekes, whereas Davidski belonged to and contributed to racist sites, and has made tons of disgusting racist statements in his time.

He certainly has a lot of calculators, but most of them are total crap, especially the "Jewish" one. It's malpractice for it still to be up on gedmatch. If someone wants to know how "Jewish" they are, they should take the 23andme test; it will tell them to the decimal point. As for the rest, half of them, the ones that purport to deal with only modern groupings, are off because of a vastly inflated East European cluster. The ones purporting to show ancient admixture are usually based on his "guesses", not on the actual ancient genomes. Peddle your propaganda to someone who hasn't spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years poring over this stuff. Even when his computation is legit, his analysis is totally skewed, and he often leaves out crucial results. 

Regardless, this thread is about the Peloponnese and its genetics. We've gone over the data ad nauseam. If you have nothing new to add, move on.

Ed. Oh, I know what's going on...you're talking about the pm with Davef. I knew you'd slip up eventually. Hello, Sickeliot...having fun with your 50 faces of Eve game?

----------


## Yetos

> How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.


I repeat search the Hellenistic Kingdoms

for example
the true Turks are the Seljuks and the part of Azzeris and I do not about Ottomans, I maybe am wrong, but as I know they were mix of Alans and Greek-Byzantines
the rest in modern Turkey are Anatolians Thracians Greeks Laz Iranian-Aryan Armenians etc (colonisation from 800 BC)

to understand the numbers search the exchange of population of 1923, the expells of 1821 and 1870 etc and realize that these numbers are not even the half of the total population but about 1/5 to 1/10 and mainly done by religion
not by ethnicity

a good example of the area is the known Galates
Gauls who spoke a kind of Belgae, who moved to Greece, then North Balkans then Bulgaria to end at minor Asia
they were fully Helenised at the times of Roman empire and ended to be Turks Today after the era of Ottomans

----------


## Kingslav

> What disabled person? Sickeliot? You have access to his medical and psychiatric files? What slurs did I use? A description of someone's posts is not a slur; it's a statement of fact.*
> 
> As for the rest, give me a break. I never in my life saw racist comments by Dienekes, whereas Davidski belonged to and contributed to racist sites, and has made tons of disgusting racist statements in his time.
> 
> 
> He certainly has a lot of calculators, but most of them are total crap, especially the "Jewish" one. It's malpractice for it still to be up on gedmatch. If someone wants to know how "Jewish" they are, they should take the 23andme test; it will tell them to the decimal point. As for the rest, half of them, the ones that purport to deal with only modern groupings, are off because of a vastly inflated East European cluster. The ones purporting to show ancient admixture are usually based on his "guesses", not on the actual ancient genomes. Peddle your propaganda to someone who hasn't spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years poring over this stuff. Even when his computation is legit, his analysis is totally skewed, and he often leaves out crucial results. 
> 
> Regardless, this thread is about the Peloponnese and its genetics. We've gone over the data ad nauseam. If you have nothing new to add, move on.
> 
> Ed. Oh, I know what's going on...you're talking about the pm with Davef. I knew you'd slip up eventually. Hello, Sickeliot...having fun with your 50 faces of Eve game?


Any real proof of Davidski being racist or just speculation?

----------


## Kingslav

> Eurogenes calculators are one of the best to measure admixture at least for people of North European or mixed ancestry. It gets a bit noisy when it comes to other groups. Polako has been an active blogger for over a decade as I recall and while he has some bias, many of his work are admirable in terms of content and sources. 
> Dienekes focused primarily on Mediterranean populations and his blog had certainly a a nationalistic vibe. He even called Turks as a mostly Greek population with minor Central Asian admixture, which is obviously not true as Turks are native Anatolian for the most part and has little to do with other populations. 
> 
> 
> This is just one study, other studies show different outcomes. It's never been a question to people with logic to see Greeks what they're.. A basic Mediterranean population with some outside influences like any other ethnicity.: They're being closest to Italians and Southern Balkan groups and never as something akin to Russians. (maybe except that singe guy with 10.0000 posts) The most recent study from Sarno et al. shows a clear difference between Mainland Greeks and Italians. The former has received recent admixture from Balkan and Eastern European populations which pulls them Northward. 
> It also makes sense if we consider the geographical circumstances. Greece is technically parts of the Balkans and migrations happened there, while Southern Italy is more isolated as a whole and received less migrations on average. 
> 
> It's not nice to call a disabled person with slurs. I wouldn't waste my time to mention a site which has 2-3 active members and tr3ll ethnic groups that never cared about Italians. I guess it's some kind of "OWD" dilemma "we're Central Europeans" and have nothing to do with our Southern cousins. it would function better as a Facebook community anyways.


This "singe" Russian guy, I should do observation of his genetics, interesting, can you point me where you found about him?

----------


## Angela

> Any real proof of Davidski being racist or just speculation?


He's cleaned up his act because he wants to be taken "seriously" (which means massive scrubbing of his posts, as well as some convenient "crashes" at various blogs), but a lot of us have been around for ten years and more, so we read them at the time, and some of us have collected some eye-opening screenshots. I once followed a picture from google and wound up on Stormfront, and the conversation between him and some Russian almost made me fall off my chair. It was racism on steroids. Heck, even with sites like the apricity, important members have been arrested. 

Some of the more sanitary but still authentic Davidski can be seen in the comments on early threads at Dienekes' blog. Dienekes doesn't sanitize his own comments or anyone else's, not that he needed to in his case. You can also see Dienekes make mincemeat of him when it comes to statistics and the inner workings of these population genetics software packages. Now, he pretends to be an expert. The Emperor has no clothes.

----------


## DuPidh

> How would you define a Greek and a Turk? Many ethnic groups became Hellenes during in the Byzantine empire and Many Turks have roots anywhere from Sudan to North Caucasus. There are approximately 400 thousands - 1 million Afro Turks living in Turkey.


800 000 I have heard

----------


## Kingslav

> He's cleaned up his act because he wants to be taken "seriously" (which means massive scrubbing of his posts, as well as some convenient "crashes" at various blogs), but a lot of us have been around for ten years and more, so we read them at the time, and some of us have collected some eye-opening screenshots. 
> 
> Some of the more sanitary but still authentic Davidski can be seen in the comments on early threads at Dienekes' blog. Dienekes doesn't sanitize his own comments or anyone else's, not that he needed to in his case.


Based off his work he is respected data scientist, but everyone has there opinions.

----------


## DuPidh

> For sure when you talk about slavs you can not exclude the russians and poles, so n.e european admixture should be the major fact. Also R1a and I2a are usefull but some people argue that I2a shouldn't be consider as it could be just the haplogroup of slavisized dinarics, while others disagree claiming that the differnce between I2a and R1a in the serbs and the russians for example are explained by a founder effect. R1a on the other hand is high in all slavic populations but you can not claim that R1a=slavs because the haplogroup is much older than the slavic expansion.
> I do not have data about albanian IBD. In theory because of geography albania should be more close to the slavs, but as albania is a mountainous region i would not bet on it especialy because eupedias maps showing lower n.e european admixture for north albania.
> An albania guy in the apricity gave this numbers for albanian haplogroups based in this study
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015138a.html
> *Gheg Albanians:
> E-V13: 38%
> J2b: 25%
> R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
> R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
> ...


Why are Albanians strange genetically? If you take away 10% slavic in south, Albanians are exactly the same, Gegh and Tosk. Greeks have even more slavic mixture. About 20% according to my observations. One reason is Slavs did not invade heavenly populate areas. Albania central and North had enough population to ward off the invasion. Southern Albania and Greece were devastated by a plague in fourth century, its a documented event and happened in the middle of 5 century. They did not have enough time to replace the lost population. Slavic invasion is not recorded as violent with battles fought. They simply occupied uninhabited or sparsely populated areas. So bottom line I would say southern Albanians have assimilated 10% Slav. Some Dna tests I have observed show that Albanians have 5% of their genes Turkish. Greeks because of their proximity have at least 15-20% Turkish genes. I mean the paart of genes ancestry.com calls caucasian or middle east

----------


## Angela

> Based off his work he is respected data scientist, but everyone has there opinions.


You asked if I have proof or it's just speculation. I answered you: I have the proof, seen with my own eyes, so it's not opinion, it's fact. He's a racist of the worst kind. Period and end of story.

----------


## Angela

> Why are Albanians strange genetically? If you take away 10% slavic in south, Albanians are exactly the same, Gegh and Tosk. Greeks have even more slavic mixture. About 20% according to my observations. One reason is Slavs did not invade heavenly populate areas. Albania central and North had enough population to ward off the invasion. Southern Albania and Greece were devastated by a plague in fourth century, its a documented event and happened in the middle of 5 century. They did not have enough time to replace the lost population. Slavic invasion is not recorded as violent with battles fought. They simply occupied uninhabited or sparsely populated areas. So bottom line I would say southern Albanians have assimilated 10% Slav. Some Dna tests I have observed show that Albanians have 5% of their genes Turkish. Greeks because of their proximity have at least 15-20% Turkish genes. I mean the paart of genes ancestry.com calls caucasian or middle east


Unproved speculation as always. Stop the ******** or you'll get another well-deserved infraction.

----------


## brg12007

members of theapricity have been arrested before? it is such a slippery slope just being curious about genetics, for me personally i love that this kind of study has the potential to open my world up to study of other cultures and histories, but it's definitely a slippery slope and like angela i've ended up on some suspect eugenics-y sounding subreddits or stormfront as well. as soon as i realized what i was on i immediately got paranoid about being put on a watch list, sucks that those kinds of people are out there.

----------


## Kingslav

> Why are Albanians strange genetically? If you take away 10% slavic in south, Albanians are exactly the same, Gegh and Tosk. Greeks have even more slavic mixture. About 20% according to my observations. One reason is Slavs did not invade heavenly populate areas. Albania central and North had enough population to ward off the invasion. Southern Albania and Greece were devastated by a plague in fourth century, its a documented event and happened in the middle of 5 century. They did not have enough time to replace the lost population. Slavic invasion is not recorded as violent with battles fought. They simply occupied uninhabited or sparsely populated areas. So bottom line I would say southern Albanians have assimilated 10% Slav. Some Dna tests I have observed show that Albanians have 5% of their genes Turkish. Greeks because of their proximity have at least 15-20% Turkish genes. I mean the paart of genes ancestry.com calls caucasian or middle east


This Albanian sample has 22% East Europe, with Ancestry.com. More evidence against your propaganda charts have Slavic admixture >5%. This is more Slavic admixture than even Greeks, which geographically already make sense. Did you see her tears of joy when she saw Slavic admixture.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7SGRnqJZA

----------


## Seanp

> members of theapricity have been arrested before? it is such a slippery slope just being curious about genetics, for me personally i love that this kind of study has the potential to open my world up to study of other cultures and histories, but it's definitely a slippery slope and like angela i've ended up on some suspect eugenics-y sounding subreddits or stormfront as well. as soon as i realized what i was on i immediately got paranoid about being put on a watch list, sucks that those kinds of people are out there.


As long as you don't try to suggest a genocide against some ethnic group or openly support terrorist organizations you're not being watched but any comment can be tracked down and I assume some programs can monitor online activity in a way they use keywords and if you fit in the "terrorist" description you can make it on the official watch list.

----------


## Kingslav

> As long as you don't try to suggest a genocide against some ethnic group or openly support terrorist organizations you're not being watched but any comment can be tracked down and I assume some programs can monitor online activity in a way they use keywords and if you fit in the "terrorist" description you can make it on the official watch list.


Simple solution to this, dont be a racist.

----------


## Seanp

> What disabled person? Sickeliot? You have access to his medical and psychiatric files? What slurs did I use? A description of someone's posts is not a slur; it's a statement of fact.*
> 
> As for the rest, give me a break. I never in my life saw racist comments by Dienekes, whereas Davidski belonged to and contributed to racist sites, and has made tons of disgusting racist statements in his time.
> 
> He certainly has a lot of calculators, but most of them are total crap, especially the "Jewish" one. It's malpractice for it still to be up on gedmatch. If someone wants to know how "Jewish" they are, they should take the 23andme test; it will tell them to the decimal point. As for the rest, half of them, the ones that purport to deal with only modern groupings, are off because of a vastly inflated East European cluster. The ones purporting to show ancient admixture are usually based on his "guesses", not on the actual ancient genomes. Peddle your propaganda to someone who hasn't spent hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years poring over this stuff. Even when his computation is legit, his analysis is totally skewed, and he often leaves out crucial results. 
> 
> Regardless, this thread is about the Peloponnese and its genetics. We've gone over the data ad nauseam. If you have nothing new to add, move on.
> 
> Ed. Oh, I know what's going on...you're talking about the pm with Davef. I knew you'd slip up eventually. Hello, Sickeliot...having fun with your 50 faces of Eve game?


As long as you don't have a field in molecular biology and genome analyzing. I would advise you to take a step back and stay silent instead say something irrational like "total crap and especially this or that" I'd expect more patience from a regular member let alone a moderator.

----------


## ihype02

Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).

Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:

i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts:_ “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”_ In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas,_ the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”_

If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese,_ one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world._ 

ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.

iii) Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes. At the present time, Athens, the capital of the new kingdom, is more Albanian than it was during the uprising because, after the expulsion of the much-hated and feared Ottomans, the Albanian population abandoned the countryside in great numbers and settled in the city.

----------


## Yetos

and again Fallmerayer,

the same person that Slavs had in theri agenda,
Now have it the Albanians,

I still wonder, genetics mean nothing?
History means nothing (only 10k Arbanites at Venician castles at 1460, Theba is excluded) 
and also 1821 means nothing,

as also the 1300-1350 AD when Kossovo was still habited by Greeks (Metochites)

----------


## Angela

> Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer (1790-1861).
> 
> Focusing on the Albanians, this is how Fallmerayer described the Morea in the 19th century:
> 
> i) If the many colonies of Albanian immigrants had already exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek, as their predecessors, the Slavs, had done, and as could have happened over the centuries, the opponents of my theory of Albanian migration covering all of new Greece would have had an easier time of it refusing to believe me, because the new arrivals, comrades in religion and governance of the Greek-speakers, did not have the same destructive influence on place names, as did the Slavs. Phrantzes asserts:_ “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”_ In the works of Chalkokondylas, Spandugino and Phrantzes, or similarly concerning the Slavic occupation of the Peloponnese in Evagrius, Constantine Porphyrogenetus, the Scholiast of Strabo and Patriarch Nicholas,_ the above-mentioned scholars would only come up with the same old explanations, i.e. that “these are merely assertions of a general nature that must be treated with caution when applied; they are assertions that reflect more a lack of knowledge or imprecision on the part of the writer than truth and exactitude.” Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day. However, if we take a look solely at the Peloponnese, no one would accept that the martial advance of the Albanians through the peninsula at the time of Cantacuzene simply came to a stop and consisted merely of a few small units of men or a few mercenaries who left their families at home. Once curious piece of information is preserved in the funeral oration of Theodor Palaeologus, the successor of Cantacuzene in Mistra (1380-1407), that shows just how continuously and massively the Albanians flooded across the isthmus: “Ten thousand Illyrians, i.e. Albanians, were given residence in the Peloponnese by Theodor Palaeologus, and these ten thousand men brought their women and children, their possessions and animals with them.”_
> 
> If one considers that all the families of Albanians who arrived in the Morea during the rule of Manuel Cantacuzene and Theodor Palaeologus, in the province of Mistra. i.e. in the Eurotas valley, had to be accommodated in southeastern Arcadia, Tsakonia and the towards Argolis, it is easy to see that the districts inhabited by Slavs and, on the east side, apparently by some remnants of the ancient Greeks, were largely empty. And if one considers that before and during these events there was a time when there were less than 150,000 people in the whole of the Peloponnese,_ one can easily comprehend how limited the knowledge of the philosopher Plethon in the fifteenth century was, who refused to accept any substantial alteration in the population of the Peloponnese. The same is can be said of his successors in the present day, at least in this part of the world._ 
> 
> ii) Nerio had empty villages, fallow fields, many enemies and no soldiers. The Albanians were on the lookout for land, war and booty.
> ...


Do not de-rail this thread again with a-scientific, ridiculous, disproved nonsense from some 19th century German "romantic historian" like this. This is a GENETICS thread. Population genetics is about testing the hypotheses of the past. Unfortunately for you, your favorite "stories" are being nailed right, left, and center.

If you know nothing about genetics and can't disprove the results, don't comment.

I wonder what discredited, already banned member we're dealing with? :) No matter; history will repeat itself.

----------


## ihype02

I didnt mean to provoke anyone I just, personally found his theory convincing. I will not repeat it again if it bothers you.

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## Angela

A theory which has been disproved by genetics should not be convincing to any rational person.

What _bothers_ me is ******** other nationalities based on out-moded, a-scientific nonsense. If that isn't what you were doing, great.

----------


## ihype02

Angela - I don't have an other account here or on my whole IP/computer.



> and again Fallmerayer,
> the same person that Slavs had in theri agenda,
> Now have it the Albanians,
> I still wonder, genetics mean nothing?
> History means nothing (only 10k Arbanites at Venician castles at 1460, Theba is excluded) 
> and also 1821 means nothing,
> as also the 1300-1350 AD when Kossovo was still habited by Greeks (Metochites)


- An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290,000 and could provide 30,000 fighters.(the number is too high, but if Arbanites were JUST several thousands he surely wouldn't make such a big mistake)

-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.

- Detailed information about all the villages of NW (North West present territory of Achaia and ) Peloponnese can be found in Annex "A" (click here). Column (c) is marked with the letter E in Greek and the letter A with the Albanian villages. (For example, the percentage of settlements with an Arvanite name is *74.5*%. According to the above register, the Greeks of the region were less than Albanians: *1,742 Greek families and 1,836 Albanians* are counted. More information can be found in the book by Vasilis Panagiotopoulos: "Population and settlements of the Peloponnese, 13th-18th century" (Historical Archive, Emporiki Bank of Greece, Athens, 1987), from which the above aggregate tables .

_(The number of families in Greek villages were bigger on average, this is why Greek villages from 25% turned into 49% families, so those ''Rum'' - Romaioi villages were more sophisticated, we do not know what actual language was spoken on those Orthodox Villages besides Greek)
_
http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=372

P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
_"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." 
_

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## ihype02

Attachment 9020
Corinthia and Peloponnese are closer to Albania than Sicily and southren Italy. Ionian Italy is hard to distinguish.

----------


## matadworf

Three of my grandparents are from Western Messenia and one from Eastern Laconia (a village in the Parnon Mts). My gedmatch results have me typically clustering with NW Greeks, Italians Abruzzo, Albanians, Tuscans, Central Italians, Siracusan Italians as a single pop and South Italians/Hungarians, Polish, Bulgarians as a two pop mix. Just my two cents. Thanks.

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## Yetos

> Attachment 9020
> Corinthia and Peloponnese are closer to Albania than Sicily and southren Italy. Ionian Italy is hard to distinguish.



it does not open,

----------


## Yetos

> Angela - I don't have an other account here or on my whole IP/computer.
> - An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290,000 and could provide 30,000 fighters.(the number is too high, but if Arbanites were JUST several thousands he surely wouldn't make such a big mistake)
> -Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.
> - Detailed information about all the villages of NW (North West present territory of Achaia and ) Peloponnese can be found in Annex "A" (click here). Column (c) is marked with the letter E in Greek and the letter A with the Albanian villages. (For example, the percentage of settlements with an Arvanite name is *74.5*%. According to the above register, the Greeks of the region were less than Albanians: *1,742 Greek families and 1,836 Albanians* are counted. More information can be found in the book by Vasilis Panagiotopoulos: "Population and settlements of the Peloponnese, 13th-18th century" (Historical Archive, Emporiki Bank of Greece, Athens, 1987), from which the above aggregate tables .
> _(The number of families in Greek villages were bigger on average, this is why Greek villages from 25% turned into 49% families, so those ''Rum'' - Romaioi villages were more sophisticated, we do not know what actual language was spoken on those Orthodox Villages besides Greek)
> _
> http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=372
> P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
> _"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." 
> _



If you exclude Theba,
the Venician chronicles speak about 10 000 at venician colonies,

how come 290 000? 

when that number is the population of peloponese around around 1800,

Do you understand the astronomical number you give?
consider the few Slavic Vilagges, in peloponese and the Turks, and the Italians and the Francs and 290 000 !!!
man what time?
the census of 1860 gave about 50-55 000 Arvanitika and Vlachika speakers in all old Greece


*exageration..... simply stupid

the first census of 1828 gave to old Greece,
743 000* citizens, in Peloponese Sterea and the that time islands, 
and in that number is also included the ones who devastate to the newly born state,
the number you give is just a hoax

Peloponese at the Census of 1829 made by Francais was 336 366 citizens,
and you tell us that Arvanites were 290 000 

not only exageration, and stupid, but simply, UNRELIABLE ALBANIAN HISTORIAN

Keep reading stupid writers

*your numbers give 86,21% in Peloponesos were Arvanites

*Wow the rest 14% Greeks assimilated the 86% Arvanites !!!!!!
*
Next time think before you post crap History

PS
*​751 077 is the 1836 census of king Othon in whole old Greek Preferacture

*PS2*

I suggest read Isaak Asimov, you would find more truth in science fiction stories

----------


## ihype02

> If you exclude Theba,
> the Venician chronicles speak about 10 000 at venician colonies,
> 
> how come 290 000? 
> 
> when that number is the population of peloponese around around 1800,
> 
> Do you understand the astronomical number you give?
> consider the few Slavic Vilagges, in peloponese and the Turks, and the Italians and the Francs and 290 000 !!!
> ...


I never said 290,000 was correct but it was given by George Sphrantzes, so Arvanites were very numerous that Sphratzes asserted this inflated number.

-According to some estimates, the Christian Albanian population in Greece reached up to 45% by the 15th century, and they were then supplemented by an additional wave of Muslim Albanians in the 18th century (Trudgill). (1975: 6)

-An Albanian historian, Dhimiter Grillo, referring to Byzantine chronicler George Sphrantzes, indicates that during the middle of XV century, Albanians in Peloponnesus numbered 290000 and could provide 30000 fighters.(Arvanitet dhe Shqiptaret ne Luften Clirimtare te Popullit Grek, 1985)

-N. L. G. Hammond, a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view, said that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of thepeople of the Peloponnese were Albanian speaker. (N.L.G. Hammond, Greece Old and New, p. 44).

-George Finlay indicated that Peloponnesus still had a majority Albanian population during mid-nineteenth century. (George Findlay, A History of Greece: The Greek Revolution, pt.1, p. 29)

In 1855, Edmond About estimated that 25% of Greece was populated by Albanians.(Edmond About, Greece and Greeks of present day, MDCCCLY, p. 49)

-A more conservative number comes from J. G. Hahn who in in 1854 estimated that“ofa total of one million inhabitants of Greece, about 173,000 were Albanians”. (Vasiliiev, A. A., History of the Byzantine Empire, 1964, Vol. 2, p.615)

-Ottoman records indicate that during XV whole regions of Morea are identified as Albanian. For example, in an area in the northern and central Morea (inclusive of Kallandros, Sandameri, Grebenes and Hllamuci) of listed 198 villages, 155 were identified as Albanian.


P.S The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from *Arcadia* are three times more numerous than the Turks." 

Mazaris wrote:

*«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].
*
*"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).*

----------


## ihype02

> it does not open,


Here: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
ejhg2015124f2.jpg
Do you see how close Euboea is to Italy?
The Venetians brought many Albanians in Euboea, where some points were devastated by plague. Ceded to them to cultivate fallow provided to keep horses and ranked them by the young in the army and defend your country from Evia listopeirates and other enemies. 1363 (June 8), the Venetian Senate finds that " the Negroponte (the city) and the entire island (Evia) have colonized and income taxes are too high "; (see Thiriet, Regestes, I, pp. . 105, No. 408). From Evia Albanians immigrated to Andros and other islands.

B. Randolph (1687) says that the Christian population of Euboea was in his day almost *entirely* Albanian.

Source: "Albanian Settlements in the Aegean Islands", F. W. Hasluck -- The Annual of the British School at Athens -- Vol. 15 (1908/1909), pp. 223-228. Published by: British School at Athens.

Euboea is a 'mosaic' of inhabitants
https://www.medievalroutes.gr/en/dig...entral-greece/

- In the cities of Euboea, and particularly Chalkis, the number of inhabitants from the West increased, especially with Venetians and Lombard traders, as well as adventurers, who lived in the own settlements. The period was rocked by constant feuds and claims within the ruling class.

- The city of Negroponte, as Chalkis was then known, was highly multicultural, as were, most likely, Karystos and Oreon, where the local Orthodox population, the Latins, Venetians, Lombards and Jews all co-existed.

- David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians..."

----------


## Dianatomia

^^ There were five demographers in the 19th century who analysed the population of the first Greek kingdom. For the Arvanites, it was all in the range between 7% and 12 %. The larger percentage was the one of Albanologist von Hahn who counted mixed Arvanites and bilingual villages as Arvanites. Given that only 20% of the Greek population resided in the first Greek state. The percentage of Arvanites ancestry in Greeks is in the range between 1 to 3% of the total population. 

And indeed, in Eubia there were many Arvanites. Some 1/3 of the total population.

http://kleftouria.blogspot.nl/2008/04/1821_19.html

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## ihype02

Arvanites abandoned their language and were hellinised by the church before the 18th century. Just like the Vlachs of Thessaly were:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...empire1265.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia

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## Dianatomia

^^ The church during the Ottoman Empire must have been more ferocious than most fascist regimes in the 20th century. I am afraid this is a claim with no substance.

BTW read your source more carefully.

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## Yetos

> Arvanites abandoned their language and were hellinised by the church before the 18th century. Just like the Vlachs of Thessaly were:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...empire1265.jpg
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia



ihype02

arvanitika were abandoned at 1930 about at the strong core villages,
at 1800 Arvanitika were spoken in Old Greece,
and not only by Arvanites,
most population of old Greece was billingual trillingual etc,
they could not write, but they spoke 2-3 languages.

you see Arvanites at 1800 were indeed billingual
as also many Greeks knew Arvanitika according the area
or they knew Turkish
or Russian or Italian or Francais or Arabian etc
so the History approach and also the linguistic approach do certify the existance of Arvanites,
But does not certify the numbers that Albanian propaganda gives,

try to understand this.

today in Greece are more albanians emigrants from 1990 than in old Greece.

----------


## ihype02

None of those numbers I gave are ''Albanian propaganda''. Sphrantzes, Randolph, Trudgill, Hammond and others were/are not Albanians. The whole population of Morea in XV century was not over 290,000 I said from the beginning that the number is inflated, but it was an error by the _Byzantine_ writer. 

Arvanitika was spoken bilingually only by a small number in 19th century, most of Arvanites in (early) 19th century were monolingual.

----------


## ihype02

> ^^ The church during the Ottoman Empire must have been more ferocious than most fascist regimes in the 20th century. I am afraid this is a claim with no substance.
> 
> BTW read your source more carefully.


This isn't so. Arvanites and others were under the Rum milet and tight up with the Byzantine Church they had no ''nationality'' besides being an Orthodox Christian.

The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686:
"The Albanians from *Arcadia* are three times more numerous than the Turks." 

Who are these Albanians? Why did Bernard Randolph not find or report on any Hellenes in Arcadia as a whole, in 1686? We do know that modern Neo-Hellenes appear on the maps in the 19th century, but who are these modern Hellenes? Did Randolph's 'Arcadian Albanians' of the late 17th century evaporate within a hundred years or so, to be replaced by a new population of modern Hellenes? We do not find any historical reports from 1686 until the 19th century of large-scale population movements into Arcadia, and/or extermination or genocide of the 'Arcadian Albanians'. It seems evident and likely, that the logical explanation is that the native inhabitants of Arcadia (both Arvanites and Vlachs) exchanged their native tongue for modern Greek.

The 10th century "Byzantine" anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

*«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»
*
"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythi-Slavs'."

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

_«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»
_
s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'."

Who were these Scythians and/or Scythi-Slavs? What happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air at some later stage of history? Were they exterminated fully? One thing seems evident - whoever these 'Scythians' were, they settled into Peloponnese lands and regions that were (already) largely empty. (If not, these 'Scythians' exterminated or drove out whatever locals they found.)

*«Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».
*
English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

*"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".*

----------


## matadworf

I have a question. My maternal grandmother was from a village on the SW edge of Arcadia in the Parnon mountains called Paliochori. She died when I was young so I really never lesrned much about the history of her village. Always wondered whether it was Tsakonian or not. If you have any insights it would be much appreciated!

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## Dianatomia

> This isn't so. Arvanites and others were under the Rum milet and tight up with the Byzantine Church they had no ''nationality'' besides being an Orthodox Christian.


Slavs were absorbed by Romanians, Albanians and also Greeks obviously. No one here refutes that. There is nothing unique in the case of the Greeks. As for the Arvanites, all demographic data shows that they were but a small fraction of the overall Greek populace in the 19th century (1 to 3%). We have to be scientific and use demographic sources. Arvanites settled in Greek area's when they were either under Venetian or Turkish rule. Those administrations did not care about languages. The Greek church was powerless. Look at Macedonia, during the Ottoman era, the Greek element has been declining, even in the Ancient (Hellenic) part. I see Greek speakers who started speaking Turkish in Greece and Crete. The whole of Anatolia was de-Hellenized. The Balkans was sclavinized, Southern Italy was Latinized. The rest is only hypothetical.




> None of those numbers I gave are ''Albanian propaganda''. Sphrantzes, Randolph, Trudgill, Hammond and others were/are not Albanians. The whole population of Morea in XV century was not over 290,000 I said from the beginning that the number is inflated, but it was an error by the _Byzantine_ writer.




It could be true, but the Arvanite population in the 15th century according to the Venetians was 30.000. 

And what was the population of Albania around the same time? Could you look that up?

----------


## Pratt

> Here: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
> ejhg2015124f2.jpg
> Do you see how close Euboea is to Italy?


It's not a PCA though. It's a "non-metric multidimensional scaling bi-dimensional plot of FST pairwise genetic distances among investigated population samples and additional reference samples from the literature based on the frequencies of 17 Y haplogroups."

Btw the Italian sampling is weird, especially for Northern and Central Italy.

Northern Italy: Udine in Friuli, most northeastern point of north Italy, and La Spezia in Liguria, basically the border with central Italy (Tuscany).

Central Italy: Latina in southern Lazio at the border with south Italy (and often south Lazio itself is considered already south Italy); Ascoli Piceno in southern Marche at the border with Abruzzo, Abruzzo itself is considered south Italy and the Ascolano dialect is a southern Italian language).

----------


## ihype02

> It's not a PCA though. It's a "non-metric multidimensional scaling bi-dimensional plot of FST pairwise genetic distances among investigated population samples and additional reference samples from the literature based on the frequencies of 17 Y haplogroups."
> 
> Btw the Italian sampling is weird, especially for Northern and Central Italy.
> 
> Northern Italy: Udine in Friuli, most northeastern point of north Italy, and La Spezia in Liguria, basically the border with central Italy (Tuscany).
> 
> Central Italy: Latina in southern Lazio at the border with south Italy (and often south Lazio itself is considered already south Italy); Ascoli Piceno in southern Marche at the border with Abruzzo, Abruzzo itself is considered south Italy and the Ascolano dialect is a southern Italian language).


Yes I recognized that too.

----------


## ihype02

> Slavs were absorbed by Romanians, Albanians and also Greeks obviously. No one here refutes that. There is nothing unique in the case of the Greeks. As for the Arvanites, all demographic data shows that they were but a small fraction of the overall Greek populace in the 19th century (1 to 3%). We have to be scientific and use demographic sources. Arvanites settled in Greek area's when they were either under Venetian or Turkish rule. Those administrations did not care about languages. The Greek church was powerless. Look at Macedonia, during the Ottoman era, the Greek element has been declining, even in the Ancient (Hellenic) part. I see Greek speakers who started speaking Turkish in Greece and Crete. The whole of Anatolia was de-Hellenized. The Balkans was sclavinized, Southern Italy was Latinized. The rest is only hypothetical.
> 
> 
> 
> It could be true, but the Arvanite population in the 15th century according to the Venetians was 30.000. 
> 
> And what was the population of Albania around the same time? Could you look that up?


It is not true because the population of the whole Peloponnese even in early 1800s was 200,000 - 300,000. The 30,000 figure seems much more accurate. However I will look it up with whole population.

----------


## Dianatomia

Actually, most likely the population in the Peloponnese in the early 1800s was about 500.000-600.000. Since the official number for the Greek kingdom in 1821 was 938,765. And at that time, Athens was a large village. So there could not have been too many inhabitants in that small part outside of the Peloponnese. Quite impossible actually. In any case, the 300.000 figure is very small even for the 15th century, since the Greek population had more or less stagnated throughout the Ottoman era.

----------


## ihype02

Until the death of Suleiman the Magnificent in 1570, the Christian population counted at some 42,000 families c. 1550. (250,000?)

----------


## Yetos

> Actually, most likely the population in the Peloponnese in the early 1800s was about 500.000-600.000. Since the official number for the Greek kingdom in 1821 was 938,765. And at that time, Athens was a large village. So there could not have been too many inhabitants in that small part outside of the Peloponnese. Quite impossible actually. In any case, the 300.000 figure is very small even for the 15th century, since the Greek population had more or less stagnated throughout the Ottoman era.



743 000 all old Greece 1828
336 366 Pelopenese 1829

----------


## Tomenable

What do you think about these results?:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517212

----------


## curiouscat

It seems that Albanians are largely descendants of Mycenaean Greeks. Mycenaean like ancestry in modern Greeks and surrounding populations

Albanian
"Mycenaean" 59.45
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
"Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 

Greek
Mycenaean:I9041 39.55
Mycenaean:I9006 18.95
Mycenaean:I9010 14.50
Sintashta:RISE395 11.35
Corded_Ware_Germany:I0104 8.45
Polish 3.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 1.85
Belarusian 1.65
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 0.05

Italian_South
"Mycenaean" 36.9
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 20.85
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 17.8
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 8.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 6.45
"Mozabite" 2.75
"Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665" 2.35

----------


## Jovialis

> False history


You're holding on to a broken branch.

----------


## Yetos

> It seems that Albanians are largely descendants of Mycenaean Greeks. Mycenaean like ancestry in modern Greeks and surrounding populations
> 
> Albanian
> "Mycenaean" 59.45
> "Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
> "Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 
> ...


Curius cat

a question for you,

by what you DNA you give Myceneans?

by Y-Dna
by autosomals?
by What?

The papper of Lazrides is clear,
Myceneans are close to Minoans
and since that is correct,
then Albanians must be close to Cretans, !!!!!
are they?

So how come with what criteria,
you found that Albanians are Myceneans?

can you explain what your criteria on what you call Mycenean?

At least can you give the Mycenean Y and Mt DNA?

cause I have Mycenean mtDNA

9006 9010 9033 9041 were are shown more than mt and YDna?

in fact Minoan shows more European mt than Mycenean which shows more minor Asian/caucasian mt

Only J2axxx is found at Myceneans and Minoans
in fact the Y-Dna fits exactly with today % of Crete

----------


## ihype02

> Curius cat
> 
> a question for you,
> 
> by what you DNA you give Myceneans?
> 
> by Y-Dna
> by autosomals?
> by What?
> ...


All Southern European score somehow high with Myceneans, it shows the inconsistency of the DNA studies about your historical research. The same goes the other way around.

----------


## ihype02

> You're holding on to a broken branch.


Here you have the professor who did the list:
https://books.google.com/books?id=3e...K_AMAQ6AEIJjAA

-Author	Βασιλης Παναγιωτοπουλος
Edition	reprint
Publisher	Ιστορικο ΑρΧειο, Εμπορικη Τραπεζα της Ελλαδος, 1985
Original from	the University of Michigan
Digitized	Dec 12, 2009
Length	414 pages

----------


## Jovialis

> Here you have the professor who did the list:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=3e...K_AMAQ6AEIJjAA
> 
> -Author Βασιλης Παναγιωτοπουλος
> Edition reprint
> Publisher Ιστορικο ΑρΧειο, Εμπορικη Τραπεζα της Ελλαδος, 1985
> Original from the University of Michigan
> Digitized Dec 12, 2009
> Length 414 pages


How does that refute a more recent scientific study based on genetics? Its like saying the Bible _proves_ the Canaanites were exterminated. When in fact their genetic continuity lives on in the Lebanese. 

May I ask why you believe this history over the geneticists?

----------


## ihype02

> How does that refute a more recent scientific study based on genetics? Its like saying the Bible _proves_ the Canaanites were exterminated. When in fact their genetic continuity lives on in the Lebanese. 
> 
> May I ask why you believe this history over the geneticists?


I am sorry but how does that contradict the study?

----------


## Jovialis

> I am sorry but how does that contradict the study?


Better yet, why don't you explain why this history supports this genetic study. Is that your intention?

----------


## ihype02

> Better yet, why don't you explain why this history supports this genetic study. Is that your intention?


This study did not include the Albanians who later according to the historical documents became the bulk of the population in Peloponnese. Some Slavonians were replaced with Greeks and Anatolians. Black Death killed 40% to 70% of Byzantium which is why Arvanites were called to recolonise Morea.
A better question would be why they did NOT test Southern Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians.

----------


## Jovialis

> This study did not include the Albanians who later according to the historical documents became the bulk of the population in Peloponnese. Some Slavonians were replaced with Greeks and Anatolians. Black Death killed 40% to 70% of Byzantium which is why Arvanites were called to recolonise Morea.
> A better question would be why they did NOT test Southern Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians.


You may be interested in reading this article.




> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4
> 
> The Mediterranean shores stretching between Sicily, Southern Italy and the Southern Balkans witnessed a long series of migration processes and cultural exchanges. Accordingly, present-day population diversity is composed by multiple genetic layers, which make the deciphering of different ancestral and historical contributes particularly challenging. We address this issue by genotyping 511 samples from 23 populations of Sicily, Southern Italy, Greece and Albania with the Illumina GenoChip Array, also including new samples from Albanian- and Greek-speaking ethno-linguistic minorities of Southern Italy. Our results reveal a shared Mediterranean genetic continuity, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, where Southern Italian populations appear genetically closer to Greek-speaking islands than to continental Greece. Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations. We argue that these results may have important implications in the cultural history of Europe, such as in the diffusion of some Indo-European languages. Instead, recent historical expansions from North-Eastern Europe account for the observed differentiation of present-day continental Southern Balkan groups. Patterns of IBD-sharing directly reconnect Albanian-speaking Arbereshe with a recent Balkan-source origin, while Greek-speaking communities of Southern Italy cluster with their Italian-speaking neighbours suggesting a long-term history of presence in Southern Italy.

----------


## davef

> Curius cat
> 
> a question for you,
> 
> by what you DNA you give Myceneans?
> 
> by Y-Dna
> by autosomals?
> by What?
> ...


These scores are based on proportions obtained from a gedmatch calculator. They don't mean much. It would be cool if someone created a calculator that actually compares your genome to Mycenaeans and other ancients, but even that shouldn't be taken literally since a lot of south Europeans have shared ancestry with them.

----------


## Yetos

> This study did not include the Albanians who later according to the historical documents became the bulk of the population in Peloponnese. Some Slavonians were replaced with Greeks and Anatolians. Black Death killed 40% to 70% of Byzantium which is why Arvanites were called to recolonise Morea.
> A better question would be why they did NOT test Southern Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians.


ihype black death stroke at 1240 or at 1400?

----------


## ihype02

> ihype black death stroke at 1240 or at 1400?


In the middle of 14th century.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

----------


## Yetos

> In the middle of 14th century.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death


man what is interesting is this

Arbanites existed to Sterea from the time of Ducchy of Athens,
at Theba from around 1240 Ad by invitation of Latin rulers of 4rth crusade De la Roche family,
the title was *Half baron of Theba
baronia de Teba*

What is interesting?
Why Plague hit only the Greeks and not Arbanites?
at peloponese

Destroyed doctoras always shit happens,
and if the work is from the Academy of Athens, surely worths nothing,
cause the Arbanites who entered Peloponese 
as I said enter around 1390 by license
and later at 1410 by Palaiologos emperor's license

*So Arbanites Already Existed when plague stroke at S Greece, after 1340 and were already at the maximum around 1400.
what were they? Immune to black death?
Besides
Plague is also connected with Crusaders and stroke Adriatic coasts more than Greece (Dubrovnik)

so the theory you provide, even written by a Greek seems to be just an Hypothesis
*
man plz 
*
it is just silly to say that Greeks died of plague
and Arbanites were immune 
so they invite them to 'empty land',*

----------


## davef

> man what is interesting is this
> 
> Arbanites existed to Sterea from the time of Ducchy of Athens,
> at Theba from around 1240 Ad by invitation of Latin rulers of 4rth crusade De la Roche family,
> the title was *Half baron of Theba
> baronia de Teba*
> 
> What is interesting?
> Why Plague hit only the Greeks and not Arbanites?
> ...


And the study says that South Italians and Peleponese are 85-96 percent alike, genetically. If the Peleponese are Albanian replacements, that would lead to South Italians being 85-96 percent like Albanians (which sounds very unrealistic).

----------


## ihype02

> man what is interesting is this
> 
> Arbanites existed to Sterea from the time of Ducchy of Athens,
> at Theba from around 1240 Ad by invitation of Latin rulers of 4rth crusade De la Roche family,
> the title was *Half baron of Theba
> baronia de Teba*
> 
> What is interesting?
> Why Plague hit only the Greeks and not Arbanites?
> ...


Arbanites were called to recolonise the Southren Greece I never said they were immune to Black Death or anything.

----------


## Yetos

> Arbanites were called to recolonise the Southren Greece I never said they were immune to Black Death or anything.


Νo

Arvanites were called to support de la Roche, at Theba
Then Aragons (Catalan Corporation) allow them enter Attica,
and then Byzantines allow them to pass Isthmos.
much much later than the plague,
Palaiologos invited them 1fter the plague,
and at 1460 at Venician castles were 10 000 
considering child per family that time we speak about 1500 families,
all these until late 1700, then we have different situations

----------


## ihype02

Venetian Chronicles estimate 30,000 Albanian men of army in 15th century. Albanians became so numerous that they revolted to expell the Greek speakers:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bua

_ A Venetian chronicler (Stefano Magno) records that "30,000 Albanian inhabitants in the mountains" of Peloponnese rose against the despot Thomas in 1453. In 1455 the Signory authorized the settlement of more Albanians in its Messenian colony._ 
Source:https://books.google.com/books?id=GE...NOBboQ6AEINzAF

----------


## Constantine

> You asked if I have proof or it's just speculation. I answered you: I have the proof, seen with my own eyes, so it's not opinion, it's fact. He's a racist of the worst kind. Period and end of story.


He seems to be butt-hurt that Eastern Europeans have some Mongoloid ancestry. His attitude and calculators stem from this I bet.

----------


## spartan owl

albanians are the best. myceneans were albanians , dorians were albanians , pelasgians were albanians, etruscans were albanians, illyrians were albanians.The roman army was based on albanian soldiers, and so did the ottoman army.The only reason that albania is a poor state that has not ever accomplished nothing is because everyone hates them and is racist towards them, because they do not actually want to admit their superiority.Are we ok now? can we go back to the genetics of the myceneans?

----------


## Yetos

> albanians are the best. myceneans were albanians , dorians were albanians , pelasgians were albanians, etruscans were albanians, illyrians were albanians.The roman army was based on albanian soldiers, and so did the ottoman army.The only reason that albania is a poor state that has not ever accomplished nothing is because everyone hates them and is racist towards them, because they do not actually want to admit their superiority.Are we ok now? can we go back to the genetics of the myceneans?


well said
I asgree

----------


## ihype02

> A theory which has been disproved by genetics should not be convincing to any rational person.


This is not a proper scientific work. It is full of ommits and manipulations.
The intentions are more than obvious. Clearly a baised work for political agenda.

----------


## Angela

> This is not a proper scientific work. It is full of ommits and manipulations.
> The intentions are more than obvious. Clearly a baised work for political agenda.


The only thing that's obvious is that you either don't understand the science of genetics or you are denying it because it doesn't support _your_ agenda.

There's no room here for anit-intellectual drivel. If you have the capacity, show where the science is wrong. Otherwise, I'm not interested, and neither are the vast majority of people on this site.

I don't know which of our banned Albanian members you are, but I will check the IPO addresses. If you're using the same one, you're out of here forthwith.

----------


## ihype02

I gave my explanation in my earlier posts.
As for others, Ottoman censuses back those documents up. I highly doubt if several writers were "fooled" by the same "dream" over and over again.
But hey maybe that is how Byzantine and Venetian authorities work.

----------


## Jovialis

> I gave my explanation in my earlier posts.
> As for others, Ottoman censuses back those documents up. I highly doubt if several writers were "fooled" by the same "dream" over and over again.
> But hey maybe that is how Byzantine and Venetian authorities work.






> It is not rape when you like it.


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post517129


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...outhern-Italy)


Uh, yea, you're not a *****. 

 :Rolleyes: 

Get a life.

----------


## Bergin

Hi to all, back from vacations!

I dont like the political part over this topic. 

Scientifically speaking I do observe a red light from the PCI map: in no other map of such a kind is Greece-France-Russia on a line. Generally the map of Europe would appear (geographical). IMO it is an indication that some principal component is not available among the data. 

I suppose that the missing balkans is a major drawback of the paper. Was reading to find out why it was left out but it was not addressed in the paper.

Is it bias (volontary or not)? well I dont know.

BUT: if someone would have left out Sicily and southern Italy outside of the data, and included the balkans only - I suppose could easily prof the opposite of tge paper.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

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## davef

Greeks are Greek.

----------


## Bergin

> Greeks are Greek.


hard to go against your statement.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

----------


## Angela

> Originally Posted by *ihype02* 
> _It is not rape when you like it._


You ever post something like that again and you're banned permanently. 

Capisce?

----------


## Ygorbr

> He's cleaned up his act because he wants to be taken "seriously" (which means massive scrubbing of his posts, as well as some convenient "crashes" at various blogs), but a lot of us have been around for ten years and more, so we read them at the time, and some of us have collected some eye-opening screenshots. I once followed a picture from google and wound up on Stormfront, and the conversation between him and some Russian almost made me fall off my chair. It was racism on steroids. Heck, even with sites like the apricity, important members have been arrested.


Wow, I wasn't aware of that. I've found some of his posts quite interesting, but have noticed a tendency to "over-steppize" each and every people and each and every debate. He's also stuck with the idea that Indo-Europeans = Eastern Europe and that's it, nothing very similar to a mobile culture spanning a huge territory between Eastern Europe and Central Asia during a time of big CHG and EEF influence. But compared to the "Italianists" (I didn't even know that such a thing existed) and "Indianists" of his comment sections he's always sounded reasonable for me, who've read just his later posts. I'll take his opinions with several grains of salt, especially since exactly today I've had a discussion with one of these guys who thinks is an expert because he reads these blogs and participates in the usual suspect forums. And, of course, he insists on that Indo-Europeans were the EHG (not pre-pre-IE, he just calls them the ancestral Indo-Europeans, LOL) and, unsurprisingly, that the EHG were all blonde, blue eyed and pale. His worldview would probably crumble if he accepted the probable truth.

By the way, let me make a relevant suggestion to the moderator of Eupedia Maciamo. That Nordicist guy was using Maciamo's words in his article about the Yamna people, and even though his wording clearly stated that the human remains studied have for now confirmed that Yamna was mostly brown in eyes and hair, it later suggests that the rest of Yamna probably had more blonde and light-eyed people. Perhaps the text could be revised in order to make the facts clearer, because the guy simply interpreted that only some individuals and areas in Yamna were brown-haired and brown-eyed entirely because of Iranian Plateau admixture, the rest being, of course, their usual blonde and blue-eyed fetish. This misunderstanding due to a relatively vague wording may spread pseudo-science and racism on the web.

----------


## ihype02

Don't take my post out of context. But yeah whatever.

----------


## davef

What's a forthwith? It's Google time lolol

----------


## ihype02

> How does that refute a more recent scientific study based on genetics? Its like saying the Bible _proves_ the Canaanites were exterminated. When in fact their genetic continuity lives on in the Lebanese. 
> May I ask why you believe this history over the geneticists?


Bible isn't to be taken literally atleast not for scientific and historical research. Now there is a difference between one or two authors and numerous ones.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/dna-ance...-search-244586

----------


## ihype02

Canaanites had an unbroken historical and cultural record in antiquity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_language
OT: Why do we underestimate the Sicilian wars?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars

----------


## Jovialis

> Bible isn't to be taken literally atleast not for scientific and historical research. Now there is a difference between one or two authors and numerous ones.
> http://www.medicaldaily.com/dna-ance...-search-244586


I don't care about your dated click-bait sources. I come to this site to primarily discuss *genetics*. So unless you can provide a *legitimate* *scientific** genetic article* that's more recent than the one this thread is about; I don't care about what you have to say. I don't care about your mission to disprove genetics, with history.

I'm Phi Alpha Theta, and I'll be the first to tell you that history is fuzzy. Should we believe the disparaging historical account made by the Romans against the _Barbarians_? Some of the great historians of the past are as legitimate as some of the WORST internet ******. That's why you don't use one source; that's why multiple *primary* sources are more valued than secondary sources. But up against a hard science, history takes a back seat. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

Right now, you sound like the type of person that looks up a landmark in a GPS, and are boggled by why it is not there in reality. 

"Impossible, it said so in the GPS!"

----------


## Angela

^^What you fail to understand or refuse to understand is that this particular paper had only one purpose, and that was to refute the speculations of the 19th century racists that the ancient Greeks were "Nordics", and that later Greeks were the product of massive migrations from both "Slavic" countries and the Near East. It was not to determine the ethnic make-up of Albanians or their impact on Greece. Everything is not about you. 

It was a good effort, but based only on modern dna, so limited in its usefulness.

A good part of the real story is found in the recent paper by the Reich group at Harvard based on ancient dna. Whatever wars and migrations have occurred, modern Greeks on the mainland are still over 70% similar to the ancient Mycenaeans. That is more than the Albanians by any measure that could be used. 

So, yes, there has been some change, but it certainly hasn't been to bring in any Near Eastern ancestry, which was one part of the story, since the analysis shows that the "southern" ancestry actually decreased. Some of the change is undoutedly the result of the Slavic migrations, but not in the way that was proposed in 19th century agenda motivated speculations, or in 20th and 21st century agenda motivated speculations. There was no massive re-settlement of Poles or Russians in Greece, replacing the original population. Rather, what seems to have happened is that there was some settlement of Slavic "speaking" peoples, probably from further north, who were themselves admixed. 

As for the impact of the Albanians, perhaps they did contribute to the genetic changes. If so, however, based on the changes in the Greek genome, it seems that what they would have done is to contribute to the decrease in the amount of Mycenaean. If you want to "brag" about that for some bizarre reason, go ahead. 

Also, Albanians aren't going to turn out to be "pure" Illyrians either, even if there should be continuity. None of us are exactly the same as our ancient ancestors. The question that was addressed here was whether there was, in general, continuity, and I would say that based on figures of at least 73%, there was .

You're not convincing anyone with all these attempts at distraction. The data you present is largely unreliable or unquantifiable, but even if it weren't, it's rather irrelevant. Greeks are basically Greeks, as has already been said. Get over it.

----------


## ihype02

Fine, whatever. I don't even believe the Illyrian theory of the Albanians.

----------


## Sile

> Canaanites had an unbroken historical and cultural record in antiquity.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_language
> OT: Why do we underestimate the Sicilian wars?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Wars


where did the Phoenician language come from ?, because in the late bronze age the languages of phoenician lands where non-semetic lands.

----------


## Azzurro

> where did the Phoenician language come from ?, because in the late bronze age the languages of phoenician lands where non-semetic lands.


You know that the Phoenician cities are in the yellow section right? Sidon, Tyre and Byblos

----------


## Jovialis

> You know that the Phoenician cities are in the yellow section right? Sidon, Tyre and Byblos


I don't think it's worth discussing. Rather, I'd like to know why ihype02 even brought it up in the first place.

Also, I see he has a sock-puppet account down voting my posts/ up voting his own. SAD!

I guess that's what you have to resort to, when you're getting destroyed on all fronts.

----------


## Ygorbr

> You know that the Phoenician cities are in the yellow section right? Sidon, Tyre and Byblos


This is a political map, not a linguistic one. In the orange area, we know for sure that in the Late Bronze Age IE Anatolian, Hurro-Urartian, Hattic, Kaskian and Ugaritic were spoken, and perhaps a few other less important language groups. The northern Levantine areas probably spoke Hurrian as well as some Western Semitic languages, especially in the desertic highlands.

----------


## ihype02

Jovialis - I do not have a sock-puppet account. And I downvoted (1), your last essay. I did not vote up my posts.
Second you brought Canaaites here not me.

- - I still think the purpose of the study was political but it would have been much better if I remained silent [since the beginning].

----------


## Constantine

Mycenaeans predate, by a lot, the Classical Greeks. They weren't even "Greek" in the sense of the word.

The difference of Modern Greeks vis-a-vis ancient Mycenaeans is explained by the immediately later migrations that many like to attribute to a "Dark Age" and later rebirth. It is this heritage that mainland Greeks carry.

To use, say, southern Italians as a sort of benchmark for ancient-greekness is ridiculous. Again, Mycenaeans weren't actual Greeks, for starters; and modern southern Italians (and Near Easterners) have African influence that is largely lacking in Greeks. Similarly, Slavic-speaking countries tend toward East Asiatic influence, which is largely lacking in Greeks. Had ancient Greeks and southern Italians been the same, modern Greeks would have similar amounts of African admixture (assuming most of the African isn't recent [most likely]); had ancient Greeks been diluted by Near Easterners, modern Greeks would again have more African admixture. Had ancient Greeks been diluted with Slavs, modern Greeks would have more East Asian DNA (even more if Slavic influx somehow "erased" any existing African influence).

Clearly, as corroborated by a recent paper, such diluted-Greek theories are--quite bluntly--impossible. Modern Greeks have to be the most indigenous population of the peoples discussed in this thread. And there's the small inconvenience (that most seem to overlook) that there exist no genetic studies showing Greeks clustering with Slavs. None that I've seen. Zero. Some of you can get as creative as you want with stupid haplogroups, but good luck finding anything further than Fallmerayor-esqe speculation.

----------


## Angela

> Mycenaeans predate, by a lot, the Classical Greeks. They weren't even "Greek" in the sense of the word.
> 
> The difference of Modern Greeks vis-a-vis ancient Mycenaeans is explained by the immediately later migrations that many like to attribute to a "Dark Age" and later rebirth. It is this heritage that mainland Greeks carry.
> 
> To use, say, southern Italians as a sort of benchmark for ancient-greekness is ridiculous. Again, Mycenaeans weren't actual Greeks, for starters; and modern southern Italians (and Near Easterners) have African influence that is largely lacking in Greeks. Similarly, Slavic-speaking countries tend toward East Asiatic influence, which is largely lacking in Greeks. Had ancient Greeks and southern Italians been the same, modern Greeks would have similar amounts of African admixture (assuming most of the African isn't recent [most likely]); had ancient Greeks been diluted by Near Easterners, modern Greeks would again have more African admixture. Had ancient Greeks been diluted with Slavs, modern Greeks would have more East Asian DNA (even more if Slavic influx somehow "erased" any existing African influence).
> 
> Clearly, as corroborated by a recent paper, such diluted-Greek theories are--quite bluntly--impossible. Modern Greeks have to be the most indigenous population of the peoples discussed in this thread. And there's the small inconvenience (that most seem to overlook) that there exist no genetic studies showing Greeks clustering with Slavs. None that I've seen. Zero. Some of you can get as creative as you want with stupid haplogroups, but good luck finding anything further than Fallmerayor-esqe speculation.


For any newbies, this is absolute bunk. 

None of the recent papers even mentions haplogroups (uniparental markers), so that's a complete straw man argument. As is the statement that anyone says the Greeks are the most indigenous population. I would challenge you to find such a statement and post it. I would join you in disagreeing with it. 

These studies are based on total genetic similarity, i.e. autosomes. You really shouldn't be in the business of criticizing something you have clearly made no effort to understand.

All the papers are saying is that there has been genetic continuity in mainland Greece since the time of the Mycenaeans. None of the researchers has said there have been no changes in their genomes since then. In fact, they said the opposite. An autosomal similarity of approximately 73% is not total similarity.

As for when and why the changes occurred, we have to wait for the ancient dna, unless you happen to have some Dorian remains stashed away someplace that you've had tested at a top notch lab? Stop talking through your hat.

As for denying that there was some input into Greece from Slavic speaking peoples, good luck with that. As to percentages, unlike you I don't have a crystal ball, so I'll wait for the ancient dna. There is absolutely no logic in stating that some degree of admixture would make Greeks cluster with Poles or Russians. You would need near total replacement for that, which obviously didn't happen.

Please also stop with the racist East Europeans have East Asian and southern Italians have African nonsense. Do some people in those areas have a few percent of that ancestry? Yes, they do, as do people in Spain and Portugal. So what? What's wrong with it? Plus, it's not enough to change overall similarity. 

The sheer nonsense of saying that the first Greek speakers weren't really Greek boggles the mind and doesn't really deserve an answer.

----------


## Jovialis

> Mycenaeans predate, by a lot, the Classical Greeks. They weren't even "Greek" in the sense of the word.
> 
> The difference of Modern Greeks vis-a-vis ancient Mycenaeans is explained by the immediately later migrations that many like to attribute to a "Dark Age" and later rebirth. It is this heritage that mainland Greeks carry.
> 
> To use, say, southern Italians as a sort of benchmark for ancient-greekness is ridiculous. Again, Mycenaeans weren't actual Greeks, for starters; and modern southern Italians (and Near Easterners) have African influence that is largely lacking in Greeks. Similarly, Slavic-speaking countries tend toward East Asiatic influence, which is largely lacking in Greeks. Had ancient Greeks and southern Italians been the same, modern Greeks would have similar amounts of African admixture (assuming most of the African isn't recent [most likely]); had ancient Greeks been diluted by Near Easterners, modern Greeks would again have more African admixture. Had ancient Greeks been diluted with Slavs, modern Greeks would have more East Asian DNA (even more if Slavic influx somehow "erased" any existing African influence).
> 
> Clearly, as corroborated by a recent paper, such diluted-Greek theories are--quite bluntly--impossible. Modern Greeks have to be the most indigenous population of the peoples discussed in this thread. And there's the small inconvenience (that most seem to overlook) that there exist no genetic studies showing Greeks clustering with Slavs. None that I've seen. Zero. Some of you can get as creative as you want with stupid haplogroups, but good luck finding anything further than Fallmerayor-esqe speculation.


Where’s my recent autosomal African, or Near eastern ancestry, _genius_? They can identify those components in testing. I guess, I’m supposed to believe some random garbage from a faceless layman on the internet, before genetic scientists who *sequenced* my DNA.

Certainly there are some who have those components, but so what? It minuscule anyway. How do you know you don’t have any? What would you do if you did?

I love genetics, because it can refute your *lazy* assessments of people. 

All you have is racist lysenkoism; you have the scientific credibility of a creationist.

_Accurate depiction of IE-migrations according to ihype02/constantine:_

----------


## ihype02

Angela - Minoan Serbs?
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/figures/5

----------


## matadworf

I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment. I haven't read anything (that is sensible) that suggests that mainland Greeks cluster with Slavs and certainly nothing that suggests Near Eastern affinity. As far as Central and Southern Italians are concerned they're genetic proximity to Greeks can't be denied. My own raw data has me consistently near various Central and Southern Italian samples. Why couldn't those samples be a proxy for Mainland Greeks. I agree Mycaeneans aren't Greeks but Greeks have a unique genetic makeup that varies region to region but as someone on this site pointed out mainland Greeks as a whole are fairly uniform.

----------


## Jovialis

> Angela - Minoan Serbs?
> https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871/figures/5


That's 4 years old, received 5 years ago.

This is a much more recent and more rigorous study, by many of the same authors; specifically about their origins. Take a look at the PCA charts.



But I don't fault you in trying to use a legitimate genetic research article to make your argument. It was a fair shot.

----------


## ihype02

You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA. 
Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm

----------


## Angela

> You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA. 
> Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
> http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm


That is completely contrary to all the scientific genetic evidence at our disposal and should therefore just be ignored.

This is almost aluminum hat territory: no, Serbs are nowhere near as "Minoan" as mainland Greeks, who would be at least about 58% Minoan like if you subtract the 15% "new" steppe ancestry from the Mycenaean number. Do you honestly think such absurd claims are going to convince anyone?

Look, I know it's sticking in the craw of some Balkanites that the Mycenaeans, and no doubt the classical Greeks, who gave so much to Europe and indeed the world are closer genetically even to mainland Greeks than they are to people from further north in the Balkans, but it is what it is, and you just look ridiculous trying to desperately deny it.

Like it or not, the further north you go in the Balkans, the less genetic similarity there will be to the ancient Greeks. There will be a lot, because you're still majority "southern" Europeans, but you have too much late arriving "Slavic", and perhaps even some Celtic and Germanic to be as close as the Greeks. That's perhaps all going to make you less similar to the people of the great cultures of "Old Europe" too, although still very related, although we have to wait for the comparisons to be made of modern people to those ancient samples.

----------


## ihype02

I was being ironic about Serbs being "Minoans". Incase you didn't recognize it.

----------


## Jovialis

> Incase you didn't recognize it.


Don't worry, we don't recognize anything you have said.

----------


## LeBrok

> I don't know if I necessarily agree with your assessment. I haven't read anything (that is sensible) that suggests that mainland Greeks cluster with Slavs and certainly nothing that suggests Near Eastern affinity. As far as Central and Southern Italians are concerned they're genetic proximity to Greeks can't be denied. My own raw data has me consistently near various Central and Southern Italian samples. Why couldn't those samples be a proxy for Mainland Greeks. I agree Mycaeneans aren't Greeks but Greeks have a unique genetic makeup that varies region to region but as someone on this site pointed out mainland Greeks as a whole are fairly uniform.





> You missed my point. The point is that all Europeans overlap with Myceneans depending on the sample, for example Serbs in that study turned out to be Minoans. Unless the Greek population have been replaced with eg. Native Americans or Ethopians the study would show any meaningful results. All humans share similar DNA. 
> Mycenaeans were replaced by Dorians. Even the ancient Hellenes were not overwhelmingly of Mycenaean origin.
> http://www.historywiz.com/mycenaeanfall.htm


 Hey guys, to avoid misunderstandings use Reply With Quote button of the post you are referring to. Thanks

----------


## Joey D

It's good that the science can confirm the absolute bleeding obvious. 

Southern Italians and Sicilians clustering with the Peloponnese and Aegean islands - well knock me down with a feather, I'll be buggered! What a revelation!

We know there's a continuum from Cyprus through the Greek Islands to Southern Italy and Sicily. 

We know that populations established in an area for hundreds (and even thousands) of years result in DNA which is very, very difficult to dislodge without major events.

In the case of Southern Italy and Sicily, one such major event was the establishment of Greek colonies starting around 750BC which came to be known as Magna Graecia, absorbing most of the original populations over a period of some 500 years or so.

Obviously DNA aligns very closely between Southern Italy/Sicily and the Aegean to the present day, which quite clearly is the Magna Graecia effect and quite clearly we talking substantially about shared DNA going back to the classical age.

The changes to Sicilian DNA have been tiny since that event.

Even with how close North Africa is to Sicily, and the periods of shared history, such as 150 years of Saracen rule, the impact on Sicilian DNA has been tiny. I show up as being 2% North African. My GedMatch calcs throw up Greek over and over and over (Eurogenes K13 below).

The main complication is not so much the obvious Greek input into Sicilian DNA, or the differing inputs, but the shared DNA which might exist from Sicily's original inhabitants (Elymian, Sicani and Siculi), some of whom may have passed through the Aegean, and/or Anatolia, and/or the Caucusus, and may already have shared DNA with the Greeks, or related peoples. In fact, for mine, it is this latter question which is the most intriguing of all: why exactly do Sicilians throw up links to Anatolia and the Caucusus? Surely one or more of the Elymian, Sicani or Siculi carried this?

Population

K13





East_Med
32.02






West_Med
21.60






West_Asian
17.55






North_Atlantic
16.11






Baltic
7.62






Red_Sea
1.72














Using 1 population approximation:





1 South_Italian @ 5.035903






2 Central_Greek @ 5.834502






3 East_Sicilian @ 6.550463






4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.940369






5 West_Sicilian @ 9.769127






6 Ashkenazi @ 9.952132














Using 3 populations approximation:





1 50% Central_Greek +25% Cyprian +25% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.608373

----------


## matadworf

> It's good that the science can confirm the absolute bleeding obvious. 
> 
> Southern Italians and Sicilians clustering with the Peloponnese and Aegean islands - well knock me down with a feather, I'll be buggered! What a revelation!
> 
> We know there's a continuum from Cyprus through the Greek Islands to Southern Italy and Sicily. 
> 
> We know that populations established in an area for hundreds (and even thousands) of years result in DNA which is very, very difficult to dislodge without major events.
> 
> In the case of Southern Italy and Sicily, one such major event was the establishment of Greek colonies starting around 750BC which came to be known as Magna Graecia, absorbing most of the original populations over a period of some 500 years or so.
> ...



Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.

----------


## Constantine

> For any newbies, this is absolute bunk. 
> 
> None of the recent papers even mentions haplogroups (uniparental markers), so that's a complete straw man argument. As is the statement that anyone says the Greeks are the most indigenous population. I would challenge you to find such a statement and post it. I would join you in disagreeing with it. 
> 
> These studies are based on total genetic similarity, i.e. autosomes. You really shouldn't be in the business of criticizing something you have clearly made no effort to understand.
> 
> All the papers are saying is that there has been genetic continuity in mainland Greece since the time of the Mycenaeans. None of the researchers has said there have been no changes in their genomes since then. In fact, they said the opposite. An autosomal similarity of approximately 73% is not total similarity.
> 
> As for when and why the changes occurred, we have to wait for the ancient dna, unless you happen to have some Dorian remains stashed away someplace that you've had tested at a top notch lab? Stop talking through your hat.
> ...


Some issues:

1) I mentioned nothing about haplogroups being mentioned in scientific papers. I said *some people in this forum* like to get "creative" with haplogroups. 

2) That Greeks are the most indigenous population is *my* assessment, not anyone else's.

3) I know what the papers say. I only made one (vague) reference to a paper; almost all of my post is directed toward opinions I see bandied about in this thread. That means PEOPLE, not papers.

4) 73% similarity is not total similarity because *a lot* has happened between Mycenaeans and Slavs. Most of the the remaining percentage can easily be deduced and is quite obvious. (Good) anthropologists figured this out almost a hundred years ago, and the DNA evidence is merely (albeit slowly, bit by bit) recapitulating what they said.

5) And I'm not being racist. East Asian/African are Facts that I see all over 23andMe, Gedmatch, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Modern Greeks have to have one or the other (or even both) for these dilution theories to make any sense. They have neither, at least in relation to the peoples discussed, and hence, they must be the most indigenous.

Some of you paint my post as unscientific, but your ad-hominen name-calling, emotional tones, not even understanding what I write seem like poor science on your end.

----------


## Joey D

> Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.


Partly why I ask about the origins of the early pre-Greek inhabitants in Sicily (Elymians, Sicani and Sicels).

Depending on how they define West Asia, but I know my various calcs regularly throw up links to the Levant (Lebanon/Syria/Israel); Anatolia and the Caucusus (Armenia, Georgia, Ossetia and Abkahzia). In fact, my Ancestry DNA results shows Caucusus as being 17%, while Italy/Greece is 74%.

Phoenician settlements in Western Sicily from around 1100BC (later taken over by the Carthaginians), might explain DNA from the Levant, as might flows of muslims during the Saracen reign, as might Sicily's large Jewish population that had lived in Sicily for some 1,500 years before they were expelled in 1493, and may have made up around 8% of the population at some point - or it might be shared DNA from the neolithic.

As for Anatolia and the Caucusus, I'm thinking this is something very old, and I can't help thinking it relates to Sicily's pre-Greek inhabitants. As others have stated here and elsewhere, we can't discount the possibility that some of these DNA flows are also shared with the Aegean, in other words, DNA similarities between Sicily and Greece are not restricted to the classical age, but could be even older.

Some of the more distant readings coming out of K13 (which often come up in most of the calculators):

12 Cyprian @ 16.361963
13 Libyan_Jewish @ 16.398252
14 Tuscan @ 16.539730
15 Lebanese_Muslim @ 20.270666
16 Turkish @ 20.511642
17 Syrian @ 22.094732
18 Bulgarian @ 22.195393
19 North_Italian @ 23.482134
20 Romanian @ 24.759869

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Armenian + Central_Greek + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.459842
2 Armenian + Ashkenazi + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.490211
3 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Central_Greek + North_Italian @ 4.499205
4 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Italian_Jewish + Tuscan @ 4.503705
5 Assyrian + North_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.596081
6 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Tuscan @ 4.604049
7 Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.608373
8 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.632735
9 Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.634153
10 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 4.636154
11 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.676492
12 Armenian + East_Sicilian + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.680919
13 Armenian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Serbian @ 4.684395
14 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Cyprian + Spanish_Valencia @ 4.701924
15 Central_Greek + South_Italian + South_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.703184
16 Armenian + Ashkenazi + South_Italian + Tuscan @ 4.708105
17 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Tuscan + West_Sicilian @ 4.708322
18 Assyrian + Central_Greek + North_Italian + South_Italian @ 4.710711
19 Cyprian + Italian_Abruzzo + Italian_Abruzzo + South_Italian @ 4.716255
20 Armenian + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + North_Italian @ 4.718494

----------


## Nik

> Out of curiosity where does the West Asian come from? And I notice in my own results that there is a definite pull towards the NE (higher Baltic) which makes sense given the Slavic incursions into Greece.


Again, just like the Greek member from Pylos, your NE pull could be better explained by Arvanite admixture since you're from Messinia and have a grandmother from Arcadia.

----------


## matadworf

> Again, just like the Greek member from Pylos, your NE pull could be better explained by Arvanite admixture since you're from Messinia and have a grandmother from Arcadia.


True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.

----------


## Angela

[QUOTE]


> I mentioned nothing about haplogroups being mentioned in scientific papers. I said *some people in this forum* like to get "creative" with haplogroups.


Since no one is discussing them and the thread is about autosomal results, and, in addition, we've mentioned in passing that any likely "steppe" haplogroups are rare in Greece, that was just a gratuitous shot at the forum and perhaps Maciamo, and I didn't appreciate it.




> That Greeks are the most indigenous population is *my* assessment, not anyone else's.


Your clear implication seemed to me to be that I or other members posting on this thread are implying that Greeks are the most "indigenous" population in Europe, which is absolutely not true. We are neither saying it nor is it an objective fact, so your perception is incorrect. What seems increasingly obvious, however, is that in Europe as elsewhere the rule is population stasis for long periods of time punctuated by occasional mass migrations if we are talking about massive changes in the genome, and that for many European countries, MUCH, but by no means ALL of the genetic variation was already in place by the end of the Bronze Age. This is true even in the case of England, I think, where the Anglo-Saxon invasions, for example, are responsible for about 30% as a maximum of the genome in certain areas. Not, I hasten to add, that this is more "virtuous" or to be celebrated. It just is.... 




> 73% similarity is not total similarity because *a lot* has happened between Mycenaeans and Slavs. Most of the the remaining percentage can easily be deduced and is quite obvious. (Good) anthropologists figured this out almost a hundred years ago, and the DNA evidence is merely (albeit slowly, bit by bit) recapitulating what they said.


Again, this is a straw man argument. It has been specifically said over and over again in this thread by me and others that 73% similarity is not TOTAL similarity. How many times does it have to be repeated? I would argue also that a lot of anthropologists thought that the ancient Greek physiognomy was "Nordic", which is a crock, but that's neither here nor there. We're talking genetics.




> And I'm not being racist. East Asian/African are Facts that I see all over 23andMe, Gedmatch, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. Modern Greeks have to have one or the other (or even both) for these dilution theories to make any sense. They have neither, at least in relation to the peoples discussed, and hence, they must be the most indigenous.


I share with a lot of southern Italians and some Iberians at 23andme. What I see on 23andme is .8, .6, occasionally 1%, sometimes no SSA. Some of the Iberian scores are around the same, some a bit higher depending on the area, but in the same general ball park. On gedmatch the combination for West African and East African, the latter of which may be very old, is around 1.5% for southern Italy/Sicily. This strikes you as significant enough to bring up, does it? Also, I see no reason for mainland Greece to ever have had it. It seems pretty clear to me that most of it in southern Italy and Iberia is the result of the Moorish invasions, which didn't at all impact mainland Greece. 

So, sorry, but your comments still seem like "sour grapes" to me.

----------


## Nik

> True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.


Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time. 

P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou  :Laughing:

----------


## matadworf

> Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time. 
> 
> P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou


Interesting. You know it's probably for another thread but here in the US especially among the first wave immigrants who arrived in the US in the early 1900s ( like all four of my grandparents) they bonded with Albanian immigrants as both groups faced pretty severe discrimination.

----------


## ihype02

> With regards to the Slavic settlements in Peloponnese, even if they were pure Polish-like with no admixture whatsoever, they could never be enough to drastically change the genetic makeup, especially after the massive waves of Albanians coming from the North and bringing even more almost identical genetic makeup to the region. That is why I brought them up, as they would have easily outnumbered any Slavic migration, knowning that in the entire Balkans the number of Slavs was 100,000.


Where do you base that the number of Slavs was 100,000?

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> True I even believe that my maternal grandfather's village (Aetos, Messinia) may have been Arvanite at one time as indicated by a map of Albanian speaking villages from the 1890's. In the 1960's he wrote a brief story of his life and family (that was in my mom's possession) but didn't make mention of any Arvanite connection so I'm not sure.


.
Hi, it is always interesting these kind of personal stories, actually myself I was wondered for a while about your grandmother... 
Without know the details, I guess that there is no reason -for her- to vanish all her memories, especially if she was Arvanitan. I mean that, Arvanites at that time, -as today also-, were well respected with a lot of political power with good economy, strong tradition and culture, as well a dinstictive language and passion for their origins... So...
If a person have the courage to write, - "to live again", I would better say- , her memories, how could forget her special and dinstictive roots. The Arvanitans are very proud for their stock, they have their songs, and their unigue culture.
How a person to "overrun" such a strong tradition and all these customs and ethos which springs from mother and daughter... Like a lullaby.
Sometimes I think that all "sacred things'' we have, is based up on womans effort, That's isn't the reason behind we usually speak for "Mother Tongue".


I think if she was Arvanitan you would knew it. But that's -just- my speculation...

----------


## ΠΑΝΑΞ

> Unfortunately politics and religion have separated us for centuries, *so I don't think anyone would want to publicly declare of having ties with Albanians at that time. 
> *
> P.s. I'm currently listening to a Greek song from Sakis Arseniou


.
Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.

*We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.*
*-LOL but true!*

----------


## Nik

> .
> Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
> I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
> Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.
> 
> *We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.*
> *-LOL but true!*


Sorry, but you can't know it all when it comes to how things work in Greece. There are examples that prove my points and examples of amazing humans which you talk of. One of my father's best friend is an Arvanite just like many other people I know, and all seem to confirm that back in the days the repression was real. Hundreds of stories about Cretan policemen abusing children for speaking Arvanitika, propaganda of how Arvanitika is the language of backward savages and BS like it being an old Hellenic dialect, or Greek colonizers in Illyria who got Illyrianized, or Epirotans who got Albanized, etc. Now if you're going to say that this is not true, I will provide links to Greek documentaries on the unique Arvanitan Hellenic culture and their ancient Hellenic dialect. The process of assimilation was so extreme that many of them turned against Albanians and seeing us as their worst enemy. But they get surprisingly friendly and curious once they see the cross around my neck. I wonder why. 

There are also cases of Arbereshe in USA knowing only that they're Italian and finding out late they're actually Arbereshe, so no surprise there. 

Back to the topic, I would personally attribute the higher "Slavic" admixture to the Vlachs in both Greece and Albania. It's not far fetched to think that Thracians had more NE admixture than Illyrians and Greeks.

----------


## Angela

I'm not going to say this again. This is a genetics thread. If you want to discuss this, transfer your posts to the Balkanian Disagreements Thread so you don't ruin it for people actually interested in genetics. 

Do you guys really want me to start issuing infractions again?

----------


## matadworf

> .
> Sorry, but this is not how the things "work" here - in Greece-, Not only I cannot confirm you, but
> I express my deep disapointment for your statement and I reject it. Not only just it isn't true but it is a big lie.
> Here we have only proud Arvanitans, proud Vlachs, proud Tsakonians, proud Saracatsans etc. and guess, they all have a good reason to be here.
> 
> *We're the Neohellenes better from the old ones. We have the "pattern" to innovate ourselves.*
> *-LOL but true!*


Actually it was my maternal grandfather's village that I was referring to and often wondered about particularly after seeing a map from the 1890s that included his village as Albanian speaking. No my maternal grandmother was from an isolated village on the LaconianArcadian border in the Parnon mts. near Kosmas.

----------


## LATGAL

> Back to the topic, I would personally attribute the higher "Slavic" admixture to the Vlachs in both Greece and Albania. It's not far fetched to think that Thracians had more NE admixture than Illyrians and Greeks.


A lot of that nonsense was propagated by Arvanites themselves to be fair (see Kollias and his attempt to connect Arvanitika to Homeric Greek, we both posted in a thread where an Albanian user posted that theory in fact) because they wanted a linguistic connection to ancient Greece that just wasn't there.

Y-DNA wise the Aromanians seemed to differ quite a bit from place to place but I've never come across autosomal results, it's a topic I haven't looked into, to see what they look like from place to place so you might be right. Much of the 'Slavic' admixture must be genuinely Slavic though considering the toponymy in both Albania and Greece.

Also we have a 5th century Thracian genome from Bulgaria now (in the Mathieson et al. paper about Southeastern Europe) and she didn't look particularly 'northeastern', she seemed to be very heavily Neolithic in fact (not unlike those Mycenaeans with high Neolithic and low steppe - but with probably no/less extra CHG-Iran stuff in her case), but we'll probably be able to tell better when the genomes are released and we definitely need better temporal and spatial coverage for a clear picture. That Mathieson paper showed individuals from the same location could differ quite a bit in their ancestral proportions after all but perhaps by the 5th century it was already starting to homogenize.

For the time being it does seem like something might have increased the average steppe ancestry and depressed the Neolithic one in the Balkans in post-Classical times (and it _might_ be instructive that Albanians -especially- and Greeks are somewhat more Neolithic and somewhat less steppe than the Slavic-speaking Balkan peoples but like you said, variation might have already existed, and it isn't like Albanians and Greeks must have remained untouched by anything _else_ either) but we'll see.

I don't blame Angela btw, you know what shitshows we can turn those Balkan threads into, we've seen it here too. :)

----------


## Nik

> A lot of that nonsense was propagated by Arvanites themselves to be fair (see Kollias and his attempt to connect Arvanitika to Homeric Greek, we both posted in a thread where an Albanian user posted that theory in fact) because they wanted a linguistic connection to ancient Greece that just wasn't there.


Very true. 

Not trying to support all their claims, but aren't there Homeric Greek words similar to Albanian? AFAIK, we share quite a few similarities, which is to be expected. 




> Y-DNA wise the Aromanians seemed to differ quite a bit from place to place but I've never come across autosomal results, it's a topic I haven't looked into, to see what they look like from place to place so you might be right. Much of the 'Slavic' admixture must be genuinely Slavic though considering the toponymy in both Albania and Greece.


I believe Aromanians seem to be mostly of Eastern Balkan origin and very diverse, considering there are groups with lots of J2a, R1a, and I2a-Din. Bulgaria, Romania, and FYROM seem like ideal candidates for a good part of them. Like I said, that could explain the genetic variation in Thessaly, Greek Macedonia and Thrace, and even Epirus to an extent. 

Or it could be simply Thracian input which predates both Vlachs and Slavs. 

Honestly, I still don't buy the Slavic admixture explanation yet although seems the easiest one. I try to use several fields in my analysis before I'm fully convinced, and the most "Slavic" admixed area in Albania with a majority of I2a-Din+R1a is surprisingly the shortest and most Mediterranean looking out of all. Similarly, Romanians can appear as almost Russian or Ukrainian but they look very Mediterranean, so I believe that admixture must be ancient. I'm sure there are flaws in my explanations and I'm open to critics to better understand the situation. 




> Also we have a 5th century Thracian genome from Bulgaria now (in the Mathieson et al. paper about Southeastern Europe) and she didn't look particularly 'northeastern', she seemed to be very heavily Neolithic in fact (not unlike those Mycenaeans with high Neolithic and low steppe - but with probably no/less extra CHG-Iran stuff in her case), but we'll probably be able to tell better when the genomes are released and we definitely need better temporal and spatial coverage for a clear picture. That Mathieson paper showed individuals from the same location could differ quite a bit in their ancestral proportions after all but perhaps by the 5th century it was already starting to homogenize.


Unfortunately we need way more than 1 example. I'd say at least 10 ancient samples per region to do some justice to it. 




> For the time being it does seem like something might have increased the average steppe ancestry and depressed the Neolithic one in the Balkans in post-Classical times (and it _might_ be instructive that Albanians -especially- and Greeks are somewhat more Neolithic and somewhat less steppe than the Slavic-speaking Balkan peoples but like you said, variation might have already existed, and it isn't like Albanians and Greeks must have remained untouched by anything _else_ either) but we'll see.


Completely agreed. I'm still somehow impressed by the results of Gheg Albanians and some mountainous Tosk areas, which make me take everything with a grain of salt. 

There's more to haplgroups and admixture than simple conclusions such as Mycenaean, Dorian, Illyrian, Celtic, Slavic, etc. migrations into Greece. The only thing that it's for sure is the North to South constant migrations which have definitely changed some proportions in Peloponnesus, which in my opinion is more Central-West Balkan while Macedonia and Thrace more East Balkan. 




> I don't blame Angela btw, you know what shitshows we can turn those Balkan threads into, we've seen it here too. :)


I believe threats are to be used once you see members resorting to insults and that wasn't the case. I've already mistakenly received an infraction for smth I didn't say from her and nobody bothered to read twice my post and remove it. Basically nobody gives a crap anymore, which is a shame.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Modern Greeks on the mainland are still over 70% similar to the ancient Mycenaeans. That is more than the Albanians by any measure that could be used.


Hey, sorry to join in but i havent seen the paper where this comparison is clearly stated, i would be grateful for a link. If the mainland greek percentage was 70% then what was thr albanian percentage which is less by "any measure".

This is from the latest minoan and mycanean paper:

"We estimated the fixation index (FST), of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7).
---------
The Minoans and Mycenaeans, sampled from different sites in Crete and mainland Greece, were homogeneous, supporting the genetic coherency of these two groups. "

----------


## ihype02

> A good part of the real story is found in the recent paper by the Reich group at Harvard based on ancient dna. Whatever wars and migrations have occurred, modern Greeks on the mainland are still over 70% similar to the ancient Mycenaeans. That is more than the Albanians by any measure that could be used.


This is not the same study (is it?) however look at it:
Albanian
*"Mycenaean" 59.45
*"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
"Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 

Greek
*Mycenaean:I9041 39.55
*Mycenaean:I9006 18.95
Mycenaean:I9010 14.50
Sintashta:RISE395 11.35
Corded_Ware_Germany:I0104 8.45
Polish 3.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 1.85
Belarusian 1.65
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 0.05

Italian_South
"Mycenaean" 36.9
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 20.85
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 17.8
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 8.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 6.45
"Mozabite" 2.75
"Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665" 2.35

Btw, Angela I don't really care about Mycenaean civilization (since you were assuming I am being jealous) as for the second millennium before Christ I tend to find Ancient Egyptians more interesting (Classical Hellenes are an other story). However I was just making a point. 

As for all this. I am pretty sure that Greeks are not descendants of Belorussians. Because Greeks are overwhelmingly Brunettes, and sometimes olive skinned, while Belorussians are majority blonde or light haired. There was no need for this study. ^.^

----------


## Yetos

> This is not the same study (is it?) however look at it:
> Albanian
> *"Mycenaean" 59.45
> *"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
> "Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 
> 
> ...



and from where you get that study?
cause it seems silly to me

----------


## ihype02

I copied it from an other member, search some pages before in this theard. 

Here is an other one: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...015#post518015

^^ This one by George Stamatoyannopoulos.

----------


## Yetos

> I copied it from an other member, search some pages before in this theard. 
> 
> Here is an other one: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...015#post518015
> 
> ^^ This one by George Stamatoyannopoulos.


I really doupt,

Stamatoyiannopoulos is working with Lazarides,

and is one of the main searchers of the late Lazarides papper,

Stamatoyiannopoulos would knew the Mycenean-Minoan and Armenian highlands connection,

Except if Albanians now stop to claim that they are Dorians Illyrians, Etruscans and decide that are Myceneans

----------


## ihype02

..... ........ ......

----------


## Jovialis

> That's 4 years old, received 5 years ago.
> 
> This is a much more recent and more rigorous study, by many of the same authors; specifically about their origins. Take a look at the PCA charts.


You mean this post? Because the same person in 2017 supports the fact that Minoans and Mycenaean cluster near Sicilians.

----------


## Yetos

correct

214 | NATURE | VOL 548 | 10 AUGUST 2017

LETTER
doi:10.1038/nature23310
Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans
Iosif Lazaridis
1,2
*, Alissa Mittnik
3,4
*, Nick Patterson
2,5
, Swapan Mallick
1,2,6
, Nadin Rohland
1
, Saskia Pfrengle
4
, 
Anja Furtwängler
4
, Alexander Peltzer
3,7
, Cosimo Posth
3,4
, Andonis Vasilakis
8
, P. J. P. McGeorge
9
, Eleni Konsolaki-Yannopoulou
10
, 
George Korres
11
, Holley Martlew
12
, Manolis Michalodimitrakis
13
, Mehmet Özsait
14
, Nesrin Özsait
14
, Anastasia Papathanasiou
15
, 
Michael Richards
16
, Songül Alpaslan Roodenberg
1
, Yannis Tzedakis
17
, Robert Arnott
18
, Daniel M. Fernandes
19,20
, 
Jeffery R. Hughey
21
, Dimitra M. Lotakis
22
, Patrick A. Navas
22
, Yannis Maniatis
23
*, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos*
24,25,26
, 
Kristin Stewardson
1,6
, Philipp Stockhammer
3,27
, Ron Pinhasi
19,28
, David Reich
1,2,6
, Johannes Krause
3,4
 & 
*George Stamatoyannopoulos

there are 2 Σταματογιαννοπουλος 
*

----------


## Yetos

> This is not the same study (is it?) however look at it:
> Albanian
> *"Mycenaean" 59.45
> *"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
> "Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 
> 
> ...


So surely it is not Stamatoyiannopoulos,

so try to find to who post it,.
and what means with Mycenean mark ?
which is his Mycenean mark?

----------


## ihype02

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post517286

No it's not Stamatoyiannopoulos (about Mycaenean Albanians just Minoan Serbs)

----------


## Jovialis

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post517286
> 
> No it's not Stamatoyiannopoulos (about Mycaenean Albanians just Minoan Serbs)


Why not verify the source, since curiouscat didn't. If you haven't noticed, this didn't convince anyone either.

----------


## davef

Wait, where are we going with this thread?

----------


## Yetos

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...286#post517286
> 
> No it's not Stamatoyiannopoulos (about Mycaenean Albanians just Minoan Serbs)


what Minoan Serbs?

is this Forum science fiction?

or your personal believes and emotions drive you in Isaak Asimov stories?

WHEN YOU AND ALL ALBANIANS IN THE FORUM REALIZE THERE IS GREEK NATION,
AND YOU CAN NOT FORCE SOMEONE TO BELIEVE YOUR AGENDA.

----------


## Yetos

> Wait, where are we going with this thread?


we are gonig that some people in Forum spread false and Facultated DATA
that surely serve an AGENDA

----------


## LATGAL

That was just an experiment Tomenable ran and it isn't to be taken literally, especially since none of those sources are _proximal_. Mycenaean means Mycenaean-_like_ and it's natural that Albanians and Tuscans are going to get similar %s to mainland Greeks since the differences between the three in ancestral components are overall subtle and those Mycenaeans were overall closest to Southeastern Europeans (Albanians, Greeks and Central-South Italians). We just don't have anything similar for Albanians (maybe the Vucedol samples when they're out but they were still all the way in Croatia) or Tuscans yet. ******* hell.

PS: Not that it matters anyway due to the limitation of our current sources that also limit the test but, ihype02, what is 39.55 + 18.95 + 14.50? And try to find out the difference between mtDNA and autosomal DNA, please, before being so authoritative.

----------


## Johane Derite

> That was just an experiment Tomenable ran and it isn't to be taken literally, especially since none of those sources are _proximal_. Mycenaean means Mycenaean-_like_ and it's natural that Albanians and Tuscans are going to get similar %s to mainland Greeks since the differences between the three in ancestral components are overall subtle. We just don't have anything similar for Albanians (maybe the Vucedol samples when they're out but they were still all the way in Croatia) or Tuscans yet. ******* hell.


Who are you replying to, it's unclear.

Please use the reply with quote, guys.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

I was surprised to see Mani people separated from Tsakonia people in this study. I assumed that they would be closer together, representing more of an older population that was not as influenced by medieval invaders. But then again, how close were the ancient Spartans to the Messenians/Helots, their neighbors? 

This study appears to capture what the linguistic maps show, particularly the one from 1890 that shows most of the Peloponnese was Greek-speaking. If the Peloponnese was overwhelmingly non-Greek, like some say, what would have caused such large numbers of people to adopt the language and culture of people who mostly disappeared?

----------


## LATGAL

> Who are you replying to, it's unclear.


I'm commenting on the arguments between ihype02 (aka LABERIA-in-spirit) and Yetos that add nothing useful as usual.

----------


## Johane Derite

> I'm commenting on the arguments between ihype02 (aka LABERIA-in-spirit) and Yetos that add nothing useful as usual.


This made me laugh out loud. Laberia-in-spirit especially XD

----------


## Angela

> This is not the same study (is it?) however look at it:
> Albanian
> *"Mycenaean" 59.45
> *"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
> "Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 
> 
> ...


Ed. Sorry, Latgal, I see you took care of most of it.

Ah, excuse me, but you do know that those are different Mycenaean samples, yes, and you're supposed to add them up? That's over and beyond the fact that these are not papers but amateur analysis using questionable combinations. 

Also, I've told you before that the Italy south sample seems to be bizarre, perhaps because of extreme drift, and has very distant FST with *everyone*, and that includes* Bronze Age Levant*, Early and Mid Bronze Age *Armenia*, and all the Bronze Age European populations. The same is true for the Sardinians. Interestingly, when the Otzi genome came out, his highest similarity after the Sardinians was with southern Italians.

Oh, and since this modern sample has such a high FST with Bronze Age Levant, it just emphasizes the fact that the ancient populations chosen for the run on southern Italians are agenda driven. People, you can fiddle with that method, throwing in any populations you choose in order to get the preferred result. Don't trust any results from certain people. Stick to the academics who have a career and a livelihood to lose, although incompetence in some lesser known researchers is also a factor.

To the board, the author of this paper is an author of the Lazaridis paper, as someone else has posted.

No one is denying that Albanians have high similarity to the Mycenaeans, although there is a ranking...How it happened, exactly, we don't know.

----------


## ihype02

Thank you for your perspective Angela.

----------


## davef

> That was just an experiment Tomenable ran and it isn't to be taken literally, especially since none of those sources are _proximal_. Mycenaean means Mycenaean-_like_ and it's natural that Albanians and Tuscans are going to get similar %s to mainland Greeks since the differences between the three in ancestral components are overall subtle and those Mycenaeans were overall closest to Southeastern Europeans (Albanians, Greeks and Central-South Italians). We just don't have anything similar for Albanians (maybe the Vucedol samples when they're out but they were still all the way in Croatia) or Tuscans yet. ******* hell.
> 
> PS: Not that it matters anyway due to the limitation of our current sources that also limit the test but, ihype02, what is 39.55 + 18.95 + 14.50? And try to find out the difference between mtDNA and autosomal DNA, please, before being so authoritative.


Even worse, it's not scanning the actual genomes of those samples that were posted it's going by what they scored in eurogenes k36 and comparing their scores to Mycenaeans and whomecer was included in the comparison. It's not scanning genomes, it's scanning numbers. Its saying "you scored this percentage of French and other things and the Mycenaean scored this percentage of French and other things so to I'll guess, using these numbers and not your DNA profile, that you're 50 percent Mycenaean." 

I at least think this is how it works based on what Pratt posted in another thread. 

Getting x percentage of a certain ethnicity from the n-monte doesn't mean that x percentage of your DNA is like that ethnicity (let alone that ethnicity itself)....based on my knowledge. It could be a lot lower...or maybe higher. 

It's a number game.

----------


## Yetos

> To the board, the author of this paper is an author of the Lazaridis paper, as someone else has posted.


Angela which paper says this you quote?

I mean this

_Albanian_
*"Mycenaean" 59.45
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
"Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 

Greek
Mycenaean:I9041 39.55
Mycenaean:I9006 18.95
Mycenaean:I9010 14.50
Sintashta:RISE395 11.35
Corded_Ware_Germany:I0104 8.45
Polish 3.65
Corded_Ware_Germany:I1538 1.85
Belarusian 1.65
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 0.05

Italian_South
"Mycenaean" 36.9
"Jordan_EBA:I1730" 20.85
"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 17.8
"Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 8.7
"Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 6.45
"Mozabite" 2.75
"Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665" 2.35*

----------


## davef

> Angela which paper says this you quote?
> 
> I mean this
> 
> _Albanian_
> *"Mycenaean" 59.45
> "Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> ...


These weren't taken from any study. These are results from freely available tools that any dumb Joe Bob can download, run, and manipulate to "prove" that a person of ethnicity x has ancestry from ethnicities a b c etc. 

And these results are based on a really crappy calculator (eurogenes k36). To demonstrate its awfulness, I'll point out that it's Italian parameter is dominant in Tuscans or North Italians, yet it only gave Angela a paltry 22 percent...guess what her ancestral background is?

Don't take these values seriously.

----------


## Jovialis

> These weren't taken from any study. These are results from freely available tools that any dumb Joe Bob can download, run, and manipulate to "prove" that a person of ethnicity x has ancestry from ethnicities a b c etc. 
> 
> And these results are based on a really crappy calculator (eurogenes k36). To demonstrate its awfulness, I'll point out that it's Italian parameter is dominant in Tuscans or North Italians, yet it only gave Angela a paltry 22 percent...guess what her ancestral background is?
> 
> Don't take these values seriously.


To me, it's just gibberish that was thrown into the conversation as a red herring.

People need to defer to reputable sources, like the ones this thread is based on. To do otherwise is anti-intellectual.




> _Definition
> noun
> _1. a person who scorns intellectuals and their views and *methods*.





Identifying reputable sources is the first thing they teach students in college.  :Annoyed: 

Albanians are very much related to Mycenaeans; they *should* feel proud of that. But the facts are the facts, in regards to the Peloponnese.




> *Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4**%**. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population.*


@ Yetos, I'd like to point out, Angela didn't post those numbers; ihype02 re-quoted it from curiouscat.

----------


## davef

> To me, it's just gibberish that was thrown into the conversation as a red herring.
> 
> People need to defer to reputable sources, like the ones this thread is based on.
> 
> 
> 
> Identifying reputable sources is the first thing they teach students in college.


Yeah, I know right? And how should anyone take this n monte seriously when it predicts south Italians are only 36 percent Mycenaean? The Mycenaean score should be well more than twice that. 

But as mentioned, you can manipulate the results all you want in order to bash whatever ethnicity you despise of.

----------


## Constantine

And I guarantee you that the .2-14% "Slavic" is actually closer to the .2 in most regions, the rest being IE/"Steppe"-type ancestry that modern Slavs also possess.

----------


## LeBrok

> And I guarantee you that the .2-14% "Slavic" is actually closer to the .2 in most regions, the rest being IE/"Steppe"-type ancestry that modern Slavs also possess.


I guarantee you it will be closer to 14% on mainland but closer to nothing on islands.

----------


## Angela

There's nothing inherently wrong with nmonte as a method. All of these tools have their benefits and their shortcomings: PCA (only two of many dimensions), Admixture (I've posted whole papers on how they can be incorrectly done and improperly analyzed), FST, f4 stats and on and on.

The problem with the nmonte analysis posted here is that it is based on a highly questionable Admixture run created by Davidski (K=36), and on the fact that some of the populations chosen to be part of the run are highly questionable for some of the chosen groups based on other results. 

Remember the old adage: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."

----------


## Sile

> This is not the same study (is it?) however look at it:
> Albanian
> *"Mycenaean" 59.45
> *"Yamnaya_Samara:I0370" 23.1
> "Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0111" 5.3
> "Jordan_EBA:I1730" 4.7
> "Armenia_Chalcolithic:I1409" 2.95
> "Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581" 2.95 
> 
> ...


With these results , *the real question that one needs to ask is*:

Are Myceneans and Dorians related ?..................the Greek claim is yes 
If the Greek claim is correct , then the Albanians ( or a majority of them ) have Greek ancestry
If the Greek claim is wrong , then the Albanians are either from Mycenean or Dorian ancestry and that Mycenean and Dorian are not related to each other.

It is either one or the other,

----------


## Sile

> There's nothing inherently wrong with nmonte as a method. All of these tools have their benefits and their shortcomings: PCA (only two of many dimensions), Admixture (I've posted whole papers on how they can be incorrectly done and improperly analyzed), FST, f4 stats and on and on.
> The problem with the nmonte analysis posted here is that it is based on a highly questionable Admixture run created by Davidski (K=36), and on the fact that some of the populations chosen to be part of the run are highly questionable for some of the chosen groups based on other results. 
> Remember the old adage: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."


The program for these results is run via mlukas ( and another named Tolan ) and he has changed the Davidski program ....................and this program, for Anthrogenica members proved over 90% in accuracy for each member.
IIRC , ancient samples where added to this program, firstly by Tolan.
Davidski Old numbers for his K36 would be minimal at best..................and only davidki layout is basically what was kept.

----------


## Angela

> The program for these results is run via mlukas ( and another named Tolan ) and he has changed the Davidski program ....................and this program, *for Anthrogenica members proved over 90% in accuracy for each member.
> IIRC* , ancient samples where added to this program, firstly by Tolan.
> Davidski Old numbers for his K36 would be minimal at best..................and only davidki layout is basically what was kept.


How could anyone possibly know if their percentages are accurate? All we can *know* is if they match what we *believe* about our origins, or for some people, what they want to believe about their origins. 




> With these results , *the real question that one needs to ask is:
> 
> Are Myceneans and Dorians related ?..................the Greek claim is yes 
> If the Greek claim is correct , then the Albanians ( or a majority of them ) have Greek ancestry
> If the Greek claim is wrong , then the Albanians are either from Mycenean or Dorian ancestry and that Mycenean and Dorian are not related to each other.
> 
> It is either one or the other,*


No, it isn't. They could both have been impacted by the same ancient groups in roughly similar proportions. Whether anyone will be able to untangle it given how similar the two groups are, I don't know. 

Until someone can present an analyzed Dorian genome, I'll reserve judgment.

----------


## LATGAL

> No, it isn't. They could both have been impacted by the same ancient groups in roughly similar proportions. Whether anyone will be able to untangle it given how similar the two groups are, I don't know.


Seriously, how can one misunderstand this so much? The Albanians (and the Tuscans) get similar results in those experiments a couple users ran (and their limitations aside, they're still interesting if one roughly understands what's going on and doesn't over-interpret them) overall because all three groups are very similar in the first place with some _small_ differences in their Anatolian, Iran Neolithic/CHG and steppe ancestries. And, to repeat this important point you've repeated yourself too, we don't even have enough Balkan/Greek (and 0 Italian) coverage yet. The Anatolian-Iranian-steppe Mycenaeans are likely just approximating similar Bronze Age groups in the rest of the Balkans and Italy (IIRC the Mathieson et al. paper's supplement noted a post-Neolithic increase in Iran_N type ancestry in the rest of the Balkans too compared to the rest of Europe).

Sile, it has nothing to do with 'Dorians' and 'Mycenaeans' impacting everything in the area or having something to do with the (quite likely Illyrian-related) Albanians specifically. The _historical_ Dorians, whatever their 'ultimate' (or 'mixed') origins, were a West-Greek-speaking group established in southern Greece, stop mixing everything together.

----------


## Angela

> Seriously, how can one misunderstand this so much? The Albanians (and the Tuscans) get similar results in those experiments a couple users ran (and their limitations aside, they're still interesting if one roughly understands what's going on and doesn't over-interpret them) overall because all three groups are very similar in the first place with some _small_ differences in their Anatolian, Iran Neolithic/CHG and steppe ancestries. And, to repeat this important point you've repeated yourself too, we don't even have enough Balkan/Greek (and 0 Italian) coverage yet. The Anatolian-Iranian-steppe Mycenaeans are likely just approximating similar Bronze Age groups in the rest of the Balkans and Italy (IIRC the Mathieson et al. paper's supplement noted a post-Neolithic increase in Iran_N type ancestry in the rest of the Balkans too compared to the rest of Europe).
> 
> Sile, it has nothing to do with 'Dorians' and 'Mycenaeans' impacting everything in the area or having something to do with the (quite likely Illyrian-related) Albanians specifically. The _historical_ Dorians, whatever their 'ultimate' (or 'mixed') origins, were a West-Greek-speaking group established in southern Greece, stop mixing everything together.


I can't quite tell. Are you agreeing with me or not? :)

Generally speaking, Albanians are eastern shifted Tuscans.

----------


## ihype02

> PS: Not that it matters anyway due to the limitation of our current sources that also limit the test but, ihype02, *what is 39.55 + 18.95 + 14.50?*


I don't know but why were they saparated in first place?



> Mycenaeans were overall closest to Southeastern Europeans (Albanians, Greeks and Central-South Italians).


That is true. But they also sometimes score high with Near East etc.



> it isn't to be taken literally.


I agree however it was taken very literally by some. That is the point I was trying to make.

----------


## Johane Derite

> Are Myceneans and Dorians related ?..................the Greek claim is yes 
> If the Greek claim is correct , then the Albanians ( or a majority of them ) have Greek ancestry
> If the Greek claim is wrong , then the Albanians are either from Mycenean or Dorian ancestry and that Mycenean and Dorian are not related to each other.


According to the latest linguistic research (this image is from Andrew Garrets 2015 Berkely paper on indo-european languages: http://i.imgur.com/z4jxRji.jpg ) Greek, Albanian, and Armenian 
were the same language 4500 years ago (2500 BC). The latest Mycenaean paper states clearly, (although it doesn't provide more detail on the Albanians) that the least differentiated populations from
Mycenaeans are the Greek, Cyprus, Albanian and Italian populations. 

There is all too often a retroactive projection of a today's people onto the past. Albanians may have ancestry from what is called "ancient Greeks" in the same way that contemporary Greeks have a clearly established ancestry. 
But that doesn't mean Albanians are Greeks. It means Albanians and Greeks are cousins, which isn't shocking if true.

----------


## ihype02

^ I would to see a comparison with Near East Asia.

----------


## Angela

> ^ I would to see a comparison with Near East Asia.


Near East ancient, as in Neolithic and Bronze Age? What does it matter? You're going to have the same amount or you wouldn't cluster on top of each other.

This is all as absurd as the Northern Ireland Scots-Irish Protestants and the Northern Ireland Irish Catholics constantly bashing away at each other. Just stop.

----------


## Yetos

> With these results , *the real question that one needs to ask is*:
> 
> Are Myceneans and Dorians related ?..................the Greek claim is yes 
> If the Greek claim is correct , then the Albanians ( or a majority of them ) have Greek ancestry
> If the Greek claim is wrong , then the Albanians are either from Mycenean or Dorian ancestry and that Mycenean and Dorian are not related to each other.
> 
> It is either one or the other,


Sile the Dorians were Hellenes Greeks
Myceneans were pre-proto-Greeks, Minoans were pre-proto-Greeks

*AND THE QUESTION IS* 
If Albanians cluster with Myceneans then they should cluster with Minoans 
as last Lazarides papper

*DO THEY?


*Greek civilization and unification starts at 911 BC
But uses and continues the substractum left by Earlier,it is like to say that all modern Italians are Latino-Roman epigoni?
or Thyrrenians? 
or both?

----------


## Yetos

@ Johane Derite 

IF Lazarides papper is correct 
as he claims at 2016 
"farmers related to those from Iran spread northward into the Eurasian steppe; and people related to both the early farmers of Iran and to the pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe spread eastward into South Asia."[43] They further note that ANI "can be modelled as a mix of ancestry related to both early farmers of western Iran and to people of the Bronze Age Eurasian steppe,"

so If Haak (2015) or Lazarides (2016) gives tottaly different positions,

considering also the Satem-Centum old split and the P-Q changes in Mycenean and Celtic
then the problem is bigger,

we have to think again Cavalli Sforza :

i:f the expansions began at 9,500 years ago from Anatolia and at 6,000 years ago from the Yamnaya culture region, then a 3,500-year period elapsed during their migration to the Volga-Don region from Anatolia, probably through the Balkans. There a completely new, mostly pastoral culture developed under the stimulus of an environment unfavourable to standard agriculture, but offering new attractive possibilities. Our hypothesis is, therefore, that Indo-European languages derived from a secondary expansion from the Yamnaya culture region after the Neolithic farmers, possibly coming from Anatolia and settled there, developing pastoral nomadism.


 
*we Speak about a non Steppe IE population, and linguistic Group
*a non Yamnaa IE branch 
Hettit
tocharian 
Greek 
Armenian 
by Lazarides papper expand to linguistic are not Yamnaa neither steppe IE linguistic groups,

the problem is Latin, pure core of Latin, or some other IE languages of Italia 
cause we might have also Latin from that group
see ikkos and equus and ippos and Hephew,

the P-Q change today to me seems as 're-union' of IE of Yamnaa and non Yamnaa IE





so the most correct map is this





until now I believe that this map is the most correct conserning Mycenean Language

----------


## Lukas

> @ Johane Derite 
> 
> 
> so the most correct map is this



I don't think so. Celtic separated earlier than both Germanic and Italic? And last two more closely relatred than Italic and Celtic?
Illyrian / Albanian had common ancestor with Indo-Aryan? And more closely related to it than to Greeks?

----------


## Yetos

> I don't think so. Celtic separated earlier than both Germanic and Italic? And last two more closely relatred than Italic and Celtic?
> Illyrian / Albanian had common ancestor with Indo-Aryan? And more closely related to it than to Greeks?


that is the problem with Latin and P-Q change

WHICH HAPPENS ONLY IN GREEK AND LATINO-CELTIC

If early Italian peninsulla IE speakers used Q instead of P like Myceneans
Then pre-proto-Latin belong to the same Group with Myceneans
a non Yamnaa group, maybe the myth of Troyan Aeneas  :Confused: 

*BESIDES
linguistic maps are results of an algorythmos according the model and the hypothesis,
*
and the last lazarides papper fits correct with 
Gray Atkinson Greekhill linguistic map, at least as concerns Mycenean

remember Greco-Aryan Theory 
Greek next To Aryan

----------


## Jovialis

> Generally speaking, Albanians are eastern shifted Tuscans.



http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post516273



Speaking of which, Tuscans look like they're even closer to Myceneaens than Albanians.

Question: What is TSI?

This and this say TSI is Tuscan, but Tuscan is already on the legend for the PCA below. They have it on there twice?


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...e#figure-title

----------


## Angela

> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post516273
> 
> 
> 
> *Speaking of which, how close genetically are Tuscans to Mycenaeans? They look like they're even closer than Albanians.*
> 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...e#figure-title
> 
> Question: What is TSI? Tuscan is already on the map legend.


I would think they are slightly closer, but unfortunately I don't think that Lazaridis et al did a specific comparison in the numerical analysis in the paper or supplement with Albanians. At any rate, the Sicilians do seem to be closest, which I've been saying since years ago when I was on Dna-forums and 23andme, and which was always vociferously opposed by the likes of Sikeliot and his cronies.

Just as an aside, I've been told he has claimed that Sicilians are closer to Minoans than are are modern Greeks. Not. At least not according to the analysis in Lazaridis et al graphed in the paper.

https://images.nature.com/full/natur...re23310-f2.jpg


TSI is, so far as I know, the large cohort of samples taken in a small village northeast of Florence. The other Tuscan samples are from further south toward Lazio.

----------


## davef

The paper shows 85-96 percent similarity between south Italy and peloponesians. 
Why do people ignore hard numbers published in scientific journals? 

I've asked before, but why, according to those fst charts, are northwest Africans and Sephardic Jews in turkey so insanely close to the Mycenaeans and Minoans? 

We got 25 pages of arguments and hurt feelings. Let's break a record shall we?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> that is the problem with Latin and P-Q change
> WHICH HAPPENS ONLY IN GREEK AND LATINO-CELTIC
> If early Italian peninsulla IE speakers used Q instead of P like Myceneans
> Then pre-proto-Latin belong to the same Group with Myceneans
> a non Yamnaa group, maybe the myth of Troyan Aeneas


Latins are not related to Greeks, proto-Greeks and Myceneans. The myth of Troyan Aeneas is a just a myth who Latins borrowed from others, and it was an anti-Greek myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic




> TSI is, so far as I know, the large cohort of samples taken in a small village northeast of Florence. The other Tuscan samples are from further south toward Lazio.


I think southeast of Florence.

----------


## Angela

> The paper shows 85-96 percent similarity between south Italy and peloponesians. 
> Why do people ignore hard numbers published in scientific journals? 
> 
> I've asked before, but why, according to those fst charts, are northwest Africans and Sephardic Jews in turkey so insanely close to the Mycenaeans and Minoans? 
> 
> We got 25 pages of arguments and hurt feelings. Let's break a record shall we?


What "insanely" high similarity? The color is YELLOW for a comparison with Mycenaeans at North African locations, unless you mean the island off the coast of Africa? Isn't that the Canary Islands? Those people are Iberians with some North African sub-structure. The similarity is due to high Neolithic farmer, some CHG via northern Near Eastern diffusion, and little to, in the case of North Africa, no steppe.

----------


## Jovialis

> At any rate, the Sicilians do seem to be closest, which I've been saying since years ago when I was on Dna-forums and 23andme, and which was always vociferously opposed by the likes of Sikeliot and his cronies.


IRL, I've actually mentioned this revelation about Mycenaeans to a couple of people who are not genetic hobbyists, or into anything like that. One of them is an Italian guy engaged to an Albanian girl. The other was a Puerto Rican guy.

Both of them pretty much said the same thing, "well yea, isn't it kind of obvious." and "I'm surprised that this is a shock."

Nevertheless, as long as the experts agree on a consensus, that's all I care about.

----------


## davef

> What "insanely" high similarity? The color is YELLOW for a comparison with Mycenaeans at North African locations, unless you mean the island off the coast of Africa? Isn't that the Canary Islands? Those people are Iberians with some North African sub-structure. The similarity is due to high Neolithic farmer, some CHG via northern Near Eastern diffusion, and little to, in the case of North Africa, no steppe.


Thanks Angela, I was referring to the Canary Islands but my lack of knowedge of those islands led me to believe they are North Africans. 

And could you or anyone else offer an idea as to why Sephardic Jews in turkey are as close as they are to Mycenaeans and Minoans in the fst charts? I wonder if they mixed with Greeks.

----------


## Jovialis

> Latins are not related to Greeks, proto-Greeks and Myceneans. The myth of Troyan Aeneas is a just a myth who Latins borrowed from others, and it was an anti-Greek myth.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic


Maciamo doesn't completely rule it out as just a myth.




> According to the founding myth of Rome, Romulus and Remus descended from the Latin kings of Alba Longa, themselves descended from Trojan prince Aeneas, who fled to the Latium after the destruction of Troy by the Greeks. Troy may well have been founded by the early M269 and/or L23 branches of R1b, representing the first expansion of R1b from the Pontic Steppe to the Balkans (see R1b history).If there is any truth in the myth (as there usually is), the Trojans might have brought M269 or L23 (probably with other haplogroups, notably J2) to central Italy circa 1200 BCE, around the same time as U152 invaded from the north. The Etruscans, who are thought to have originated in western Anatolia, not far from Troy, might also have brought R1b-L23 to Italy, also blended with other haplogroups (see below). Nowadays R1b-L23 is the second most common subclade of R1b in Italy (see map), although well behind R1b-U152. L23 has a remarkably uniform distribution over all the Italian peninsula, making between 5% and 10% of the male lineages. It is found at a slightly higher frequency in Campania and Calabria due to the Greek colonies, and decreases under 5% of the population only around the Alps.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

----------


## Yetos

> Latins are not related to Greeks, proto-Greeks and Myceneans. The myth of Troyan Aeneas is a just a myth who Latins borrowed from others, and it was an anti-Greek myth.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic
> 
> 
> 
> I think southeast of Florence.


Pax I do not say about Latins and Greeks

I say about clear proto-core of Latin and Mycenean language,
which uses Q K for horse,
while Italo-Celtic and Greek use the P Ph

----------


## Angela

Latin and Greek are both Indo-European languages, so, of course, there will be some similarities. At the same time, they are on* totally different branches* of the Indo-European languages. 

However, this is not a linguistics thread. Take extended posts about it to the linguistics section. Some discipline, please, gentlemen; people are coming to this thread for a discussion of the genetics of a particular area, not to read about linguistics in any detailed way.

----------


## Jovialis

Personally, I think using language as a proxy could be an illusory correlation, no less arbitrary as shared culture. Nevertheless, I find that both the theory of R1b-U152 (Hallstatt culture), and R1b-M269/L23 (Trojan myth) are both compelling arguments. But until we get DNA from ancient Patricians, we will never know.

_*Maybe because I'm R1b-M269, I'm exhibiting a bit of bias leaning towards the Trojan myth_.  :Innocent: 

Joking aside, I will defer to whatever the facts may be, when they come out one day.  :Smile:

----------


## Angela

We don't even know what ydna the Trojans carried, and we may never know. We also don't know whether they were really similar to Greeks in the first place. They might have been and they may not have been. 

Lots of groups claimed descent from the Trojans, including the Scots. Everyone wanted an illustrious ancestry. It may be nothing more than that. As has been said, it was a way for the Latins to differentiate themselves from the Greeks, with whom they were in conflict.

----------


## Jovialis

> We don't even know what ydna the Trojans carried, and we may never know. We also don't know whether they were really similar to Greeks in the first place. They might have been and they may not have been. 
> 
> Lots of groups claimed descent from the Trojans, including the Scots. Everyone wanted an illustrious ancestry. It may be nothing more than that. As has been said, it was a way for the Latins to differentiate themselves from the Greeks, with whom they were in conflict.


I see, oh well. I was just going by what I read from the Italian DNA section. But I guess it's just speculation in regards to the myth.

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

Myth or what, the Greek sources practically say that the Romans were *Albani* (+ maybe natives and other 'barbarians') and that those *Albani* were *Hellenes*.




> The Albans were a mixed nation composed of Pelasgians, of Arcadians, of the Epeans who came from Elis, and, last of all, of the Trojans who came into Italy with Aeneas, the son of Anchises and Aphroditê, after the taking of Troy. It is probable that a barbarian element also from among the neighbouring peoples or a remnant of the ancient inhabitants of the place was mixed with the Greek. But all these people, having lost their tribal designations, came to be called by one common name, Latins, after Latinus, who had been king of this country.  The walled city, then, was built by these tribes in the four hundred and thirty-second year after the taking of Troy, and in the seventh Olympiad.(*752/1 BC) The leaders of the colony were twin brothers of the royal family, Romulus being the name of one and Remus of the other. On the mother's side they were descended from Aeneas and were Dardanidae; it is hard to say with certainty who their father was, but the Romans believe them to have been the sons of Mars.


Now that's written by Dionysius from Halicarnassus who lived much later than the time of Trojan War (almost 1200 years later), 
but for me a movement of a population from NW Anatolia to Italy after the Trojan War (supposedly c. 1200 BC) is possible

----------


## Salento

> I see, oh well. I was just going by what I read from the Italian DNA section. But I guess it's just speculation in regards to the myth.


Porto Badisco or Castro
L'approdo di Enea in Italia
Secondo un'interpretazione ricorrente fu Badisco il primo approdo di Enea, descritto nell'Eneide di Virgilio: l'eroe vi avrebbe fatto scalo nel suo viaggio in Italia dopo la fuga da Troia......
https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto_Badisco

----------


## Jovialis

@ Angela,

What is your opinion on the Etruscans? Maciamo speculates they are of Greek or West Anatolian origin.




> Another key player in the make-up of Iron Age Italy were the Etruscans, who appeared circa 750 BCE apparently out of nowhere. Some have postulated that they came from Anatolia, *but their origins remain uncertain to this day*. Although their territory matches closely the extent of the Italic haplogroup R1b-U152, the Etruscans were non-Indo-European speakers, and their language is unrelated to any other known ancient languages apart from the Raetic language of the Alps and the Lemnian language of the Aegean Sea. It is likely that the Etruscans came from somewhere in the Eastern Mediterranean and imposed their language on the Italic tribes living in Tuscany, then to the Po Valley, thus splitting Indo-European-speaking tribes in two. Based on the non-Indo-European halogroups found in central and southern Tuscany today, the original Etruscans *probably* belonged to an compound of haplogroups J2, E1b1b, G2a, and R1b-M269 (or R1b-L23) in that order of frequency. This would appear to support of Greek or West Anatolian origin. The high frequency of R1b-U152 found in Tuscany today can be attributed to Italic tribes absorbed by the Etruscans, and to the Romans who resettled part of Etruria.
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

----------


## Yetos

> Latin and Greek are both Indo-European languages, so, of course, there will be some similarities. At the same time, they are on* totally different branches* of the Indo-European languages. 
> 
> However, this is not a linguistics thread. Take extended posts about it to the linguistics section. Some discipline, please, gentlemen; people are coming to this thread for a discussion of the genetics of a particular area, not to read about linguistics in any detailed way.



ok

simply they both show the same linguistic change Q->P 
which might be a result of another influence

*All I say is that except Myceneans maybe that IE non Yamnaa group pass to Italian penisnula*

----------


## Angela

> @ Angela,
> 
> What is your opinion on the Etruscans? Maciamo speculates they are of Greek or West Anatolian origin.


I've opined a lot on the Etruscans here and on other sites in the past, because the Etruscans are sort of a thing with me (and with other people), and I've spent a very long time studying them, but at the end of the day I still really don't know the answer to that question. 

The ancient dna we have for them so far is a set of not very resolved mtDna where some of the lineages were first claimed to have a correspondence to Anatolia/Turkey, but were later said to be so generic that they could have been in Italy since the Neolithic. As a set they most resembled a set from southern Germany (lots of "farmer" mtdna, but quite a bit of U5 too) which generally, I think, just means Late Neolithic/Early Bronze in areas with a lot of farmer impact but also some absorption of WHG/steppe. 

The only other information is a non-published PCA of their autosomes where they look sort of Iberian, Tuscan/North Italian, Bulgarian? IF that's correct, and it's a big IF, then there sure wasn't any major replacement of the whole population in the first millennium BC by people from Anatolia. We know there were Bronze Age movements from Anatolia into Southeastern Europe, so I'm assuming into Italy as well, but whether there was specifically an Iron Age movement from Anatolia only into southern Toscana in the Iron Age, i.e. in the first millennium BC, that I don't know. If there was it was perhaps an elite movement? After all, look how similar Tuscans are to Albanians. Did the "Etruscans" from Anatolia go to Albania as well specifically in the first millennium BC? I think a lot of the analysis of the Tuscans in terms of the Etruscans was always done without placing Tuscany, and Italy as a whole, into the context of similar processes taking place in Greece and the more northern Balkans. 

Anyway, as I said there are lots of threads on it, with this one being perhaps the most specific. Bottom line, I don't think modern dna is the way to go with this one. 

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...uscans+Tuscans

----------


## Pax Augusta

> I've opined a lot on the Etruscans here and on other sites in the past, because the Etruscans are sort of a thing with me (and with other people), and I've spent a very long time studying them, but at the end of the day I still really don't know the answer to that question. 
> The ancient dna we have for them so far is a set of not very resolved mtDna where some of the lineages were first claimed to have a correspondence to Anatolia/Turkey, but were later said to be so generic that they could have been in Italy since the Neolithic. As a set they most resembled a set from southern Germany (lots of "farmer" mtdna, but quite a bit of U5 too) which generally, I think, just means Late Neolithic/Early Bronze in areas with a lot of farmer impact but also some absorption of WHG/steppe. 
> The only other information is a non-published PCA of their autosomes where they look sort of Iberian, Tuscan/North Italian, Bulgarian? IF that's correct, and it's a big IF, then there sure wasn't any major replacement of the whole population in the first millennium BC by people from Anatolia. We know there were Bronze Age movements from Anatolia into Southeastern Europe, so I'm assuming into Italy as well, but whether there was specifically an Iron Age movement from Anatolia only into southern Toscana in the Iron Age, i.e. in the first millennium BC, that I don't know. If there was it was perhaps an elite movement? After all, look how similar Tuscans are to Albanians. Did the "Etruscans" from Anatolia go to Albania as well specifically in the first millennium BC? I think a lot of the analysis of the Tuscans in terms of the Etruscans was always done without placing Tuscany, and Italy as a whole, into the context of similar processes taking place in Greece and the more northern Balkans. 
> Anyway, as I said there are lots of threads on it, with this one being perhaps the most specific. Bottom line, I don't think modern dna is the way to go with this one. 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...uscans+Tuscans


It's not a PCA, but there is also a multidimensional scaling (MDS) built from the matrix of the FSt where Etruscans are somewhat close to early Middle Ages people from Modena, Emilia-Romagna (5th to the 7th century AD). It comes from a 2015 Italian poster.

----------


## Angela

> It's not a PCA, but there is also a multidimensional scaling (MDS) built from the matrix of the FSt where Etruscans are somewhat close to early Middle Ages people from Modena, Emilia-Romagna (5th to the 7th century AD). It comes from a 2015 Italian poster.


Do you happen to have a link to the paper? I don't know why this isn't more widely known.

It would certainly make me very happy if they turn out to be like Emilians. :)

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Do you happen to have a link to the paper? I don't know why this isn't more widely known.
> It would certainly make me very happy if they turn out to be like Emilians. :)


I have only the poster, sorry. 
This is another MDS but less easy to read (it comes from another study).

----------


## Dibran

> Interesting. You know it's probably for another thread but here in the US especially among the first wave immigrants who arrived in the US in the early 1900s ( like all four of my grandparents) they bonded with Albanian immigrants as both groups faced pretty severe discrimination.


All of us are connected. Greeks and Albanians especially. My moms lineage is from the Albanian warlord Gjin Bua Shpata who stretched up into the pelopenessus. I am sure intermixing occurred. Given my Ydna, its possible it could be connected to Slavic migrations into Byzantium, then becoming Albanian or Greek etc. Genetically, culturally, historically, we are related peoples. Religion coupled with politics unfortunately divides us.

----------


## Dibran

> Sorry, but you can't know it all when it comes to how things work in Greece. There are examples that prove my points and examples of amazing humans which you talk of. One of my father's best friend is an Arvanite just like many other people I know, and all seem to confirm that back in the days the repression was real. Hundreds of stories about Cretan policemen abusing children for speaking Arvanitika, propaganda of how Arvanitika is the language of backward savages and BS like it being an old Hellenic dialect, or Greek colonizers in Illyria who got Illyrianized, or Epirotans who got Albanized, etc. Now if you're going to say that this is not true, I will provide links to Greek documentaries on the unique Arvanitan Hellenic culture and their ancient Hellenic dialect. The process of assimilation was so extreme that many of them turned against Albanians and seeing us as their worst enemy. But they get surprisingly friendly and curious once they see the cross around my neck. I wonder why. 
> 
> There are also cases of Arbereshe in USA knowing only that they're Italian and finding out late they're actually Arbereshe, so no surprise there. 
> 
> Back to the topic, I would personally attribute the higher "Slavic" admixture to the Vlachs in both Greece and Albania. It's not far fetched to think that Thracians had more NE admixture than Illyrians and Greeks.


You seem the most level headed out of many of our kin on these forums. Good on you Shqipe!

----------


## Dibran

> Very true. 
> 
> Not trying to support all their claims, but aren't there Homeric Greek words similar to Albanian? AFAIK, we share quite a few similarities, which is to be expected. 
> 
> 
> I believe Aromanians seem to be mostly of Eastern Balkan origin and very diverse, considering there are groups with lots of J2a, R1a, and I2a-Din. Bulgaria, Romania, and FYROM seem like ideal candidates for a good part of them. Like I said, that could explain the genetic variation in Thessaly, Greek Macedonia and Thrace, and even Epirus to an extent. 
> 
> Or it could be simply Thracian input which predates both Vlachs and Slavs. 
> 
> ...



I am R1a-Z283, negative downstream(doing FGC now). My family is from Okshtuni Vogel, in an isolated part of Okshtun, Diber. As far as we trace back to its 400 years. Before which(according to oral history) we came from Mirdita, by the name Pershpalaj. The region in Mirdit they originate has oral history claiming they were mercenaries of Skanderbeg hired from Italy. Wegene(I take with a grain of salt) predicted L1029 off of my ancestrydna data. However I tested negative for this branch along with the rest of the major 18 on LivingDNA. My Yelite should clear this up. I understand L1029 is linked to Germanic, Scandinavian, and Slavic groups?

----------


## Dibran

> The program for these results is run via mlukas ( and another named Tolan ) and he has changed the Davidski program ....................and this program, for Anthrogenica members proved over 90% in accuracy for each member.
> IIRC , ancient samples where added to this program, firstly by Tolan.
> Davidski Old numbers for his K36 would be minimal at best..................and only davidki layout is basically what was kept.


A user(using mlukas program) did an ancient calculator for me. This was my result(regardless of accuracy/inaccuracy)

23late.jpg

23middle.jpg

23ancient.jpg

I can confirm that mlukas k36 modern analysis is extremely accurate in the case of my ancestry.
*
23andme ancestry results:*

https://fusiontables.googleuserconte...mplt=2&hml=KML
*
Highest correlation values:
*
*North_Albania 0,94805
Albanians_FYROM 0,94608
Kosovo 0,93996
South_Albania 0,93791*

IT_Tuscany 0,92115
IT_Lazio 0,91967
GR_Eubea 0,91565
GR_Peloponese 0,91398
IT_Abruzzo 0,9046

IT_Marche 0,8907
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
GR_Macedonia 0,88744
IT_North 0,88505
IT_Friuli 0,88125
IT_Apulia 0,87693
FR_Corsica 0,87646
IT_Veneto 0,86945
Bulgaria 0,86787

IT_Campania 0,85697
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85429
South_Rumunia 0,84405
Sicily_Trapani 0,8431
GR_Andros 0,84007
Sicily_Ragusa 0,84
GR_Cyclades 0,83754
IT_Calabria 0,83117
IT_Piedmont 0,83096
Sicily_Katania 0,82732
Swiss_Italian 0,82623
GR_Kythira 0,82517
Sicily_Palermo 0,82356
Thrace 0,82115
GR_Kalymnos 0,82056
Malta 0,82027
Sicily_Agrigento 0,81671
GR_Chios 0,81511
GR_Central 0,80897
Bosniaks 1 0,80773
Bosniaks 2 0,80773
SE-Rumunia 0,80408
Montenegro 0,8019*

AncestryDNA results:*

https://fusiontables.googleuserconte...mplt=2&hml=KML
*
Highest correlation values:
*
*Albanians_FYROM 0,94788
North_Albania 0,94758
Kosovo 0,93866
South_Albania 0,93658
Ipeiros 0,93061*

IT_Lazio 0,92918
IT_Tuscany 0,92784
GR_Eubea 0,925
GR_Peloponese 0,91421
IT_Abruzzo 0,90865

IT_Marche 0,89903
IT_North 0,89421
IT_Friuli 0,89
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
GR_Macedonia 0,88637
FR_Corsica 0,88385
IT_Apulia 0,8819
IT_Veneto 0,8788
Bulgaria 0,86686
IT_Campania 0,86323

Macedonia_FYROM 0,8596
Sicily_Trapani 0,84935
Sicily_Ragusa 0,842
GR_Cyclades 0,84158
IT_Piedmont 0,84118
South_Rumunia 0,84083
GR_Andros 0,83979
Swiss_Italian 0,838
IT_Calabria 0,83333
Sicily_Katania 0,83029
Sicily_Palermo 0,82946
GR_Kythira 0,8288
Thrace 0,82654
Sicily_Agrigento 0,82362
Malta 0,82258
GR_Kalymnos 0,82218
GR_Chios 0,81613
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,8084
GR_Central 0,8079
Bosniaks 1 0,80487
Bosniaks 2 0,80487
Montenegro 0,80338
SE-Rumunia 0,80285*

My Fathers results:

*https://fusiontables.googleuserconte...mplt=2&hml=KML
*Highest correlation values:*

*Albanians_FYROM 0,95829
South_Albania 0,95362
North_Albania 0,94948
Kosovo 0,93335
GR_Peloponese 0,93318*

GR_Eubea 0,92838
IT_Abruzzo 0,91837
IT_Lazio 0,91177
IT_Tuscany 0,90774
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
GR_Macedonia 0,90554
IT_Apulia 0,9009

GR_Cyclades 0,88752
IT_Marche 0,88355
IT_Campania  0,87883
Bulgaria 0,8776
Sicily_Ragusa 0,872
Sicily_Trapani 0,86855
GR_Kythira 0,86469
GR_Andros 0,86285
IT_North 0,86118
IT_Calabria 0,86092

South_Rumunia 0,85487
GR_Kalymnos 0,85478
Sicily_Katania 0,85321
IT_Friuli 0,85305
FR_Corsica 0,85228
Sicily_Agrigento 0,85078
Macedonia_FYROM 0,85022
Sicily_Palermo 0,84597
GR_Chios 0,84122
Malta 0,8364
IT_Veneto 0,83258
GR_Crete 0,83016
Thrace 0,82642
Sicily_Caltanisetta 0,82304
GR_Ikaria 0,82079
Sicily_Messina 0,81875
GR_Central 0,81555
Bosniaks 1 0,80817
Bosniaks 2 0,80817
Swiss_Italian 0,80495
SE-Rumunia 0,80281

----------


## Angela

> A user(using mlukas program) did an ancient calculator for me. This was my result(regardless of accuracy/inaccuracy)
> 
> 23late.jpg
> 
> 23middle.jpg
> 
> 23ancient.jpg
> 
> I can confirm that mlukas k36 modern analysis is extremely accurate in the case of my ancestry.
> ...


Very interesting that you're closer to Tuscany and Lazio than to Greeks. Is that true for most Albanians?

----------


## Salento

On many Calculators, K36 included:
I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.

----------


## Salento

> On many Calculators, K36 included:
> I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.


Also: a S.Italian/North European = Venetian.

----------


## matadworf

Here's my K 36 Admixture result. I do believe I have NW Greek and/or Albanian ties. Not sure about Macedonian result. 
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Macedonia @ 4,601119
2 Albania_North @ 4,964581
3 Greek_Peloponnes @ 4,978364
4 Albania_South @ 5,201673
5 Albania_FYROM @ 5,441659
6 Gr_Eubea @ 5,559489
7 IT_Tuscany @ 5,594432
8 Macedonia_FYROM @ 5,684916
9 Kosovo @ 5,769599
10 GR_Cyclades @ 5,986484
11 Albania_Montenegro @ 6,097649
12 Bulgaria @ 6,133917
13 Gr_Andros @ 6,143467
14 Gr_Chios @ 6,23868
15 South_Romania @ 6,348835
16 IT_Friuli @ 6,387784
17 IT_North @ 6,700474
18 Ashkenazi_Eastern_Euro @ 6,711725
19 Askhenazi @ 6,796111
20 Romania_SE @ 6,984716
337 iterations.

----------


## Dibran

> Very interesting that you're closer to Tuscany and Lazio than to Greeks. Is that true for most Albanians?


I am not certain for Lazio, but in the case of Tuscan, I have noticed for most northern Albanians Tuscan does come before Greek, however not by significant distance. 
The Tuscan is always higher for me. Oddly enough my and my father IT k36 component is 31 and 35 percent respectively. Yet , the highest mean average is for Tuscans, with 26-28 if I'm not mistaken. Our result in this component is very atypical. Though, a few Albanian members from anthro who had mothers from my fathers village in Diber Vogel, Albania had higher elevation of IT compared to other Albanian. Though not as significantly atypical as me and my father. So, idk if it's relative to an older mixture?

Some oral history in the village we originate claims our ancestor was a Condottieri hired from the Apennines by Skanderbeg. Though, I can't confirm this. I suppose my Yelite FGC test will shed some light on this. 
If there is any weight to the story, perhaps it explains the elevation of this component?
Still doesn't explain why it's so elevated. As such we get modeled as 60 Albanian_FYROM 30 Italian(mostly Tuscan and Lazio)and 10 Sardinian in nmonte runs.

----------


## davef

I wonder how much Mycenaean an extreme southern Greek would have. The study says there's 70 percent in modern Greeks, but that's averaging in the northerners and we know the mycenaen percentage diminishes further up north.

----------


## matadworf

I would guess someone with roots in Mani or Tsakonia.

----------


## Yetos

Guys 
*
WHY DON'T YOU MAKE A THREAD ABOUT ALBANIAN DNA 

AWAY FROM THIS THREAD*

----------


## davef

> On many Calculators, K36 included:
> I've notice that if Parents are: 1 full S.Italian and the other a mix S.Italian/North European, the Child shows up as Albanian.


Yeah, there's a pca showing where south Italians from different regions would cluster. It was just posted here this week. Since Dibran is getting Lazio as his top population, he'd end up halfway between the north end and south end of Italy. 

Makes sense given it's location, it's like having one north Italian and one south Italian parent.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> TSI is, so far as I know, the large cohort of samples taken in a small village northeast of Florence. The other Tuscan samples are from further south toward Lazio.


Lazaridis uses in his PCA the other Tuscan samples (Tuscan HGDP) from further south toward Lazio.

----------


## Dibran

> Yeah, there's a pca showing where south Italians from different regions would cluster. It was just posted here this week. Since Dibran is getting Lazio as his top population, he'd end up halfway between the north end and south end of Italy. 
> Makes sense given it's location, it's like having one north Italian and one south Italian parent.


Albanian is usually my top. If it's Italian it's usually Tuscan then lazio then abruzzo. As far as we know for certain we are Albanian. At least 400 years that we can trace. 

Though my mothers ancestor had intermarriage with Italians and Greeks so it could explain the matching.

----------


## Jovialis

> Lazaridis uses in his PCA the other Tuscan samples (Tuscan HGDP) from further south toward Lazio.


https://catalog.coriell.org/0/Sectio....aspx?PgId=395




> These cell lines and DNA samples were prepared from blood samples collected in a small town near Florence in the Tuscany region of Italy. All of the samples are from unrelated individuals who identified themselves as having at least three out of four Tuscan grandparents.
> ...
> 
> These samples, while not genetically "atypical", do not necessarily represent all Tuscans, nor all Italians, whose population history is complex. The population should not be described merely as "Italian", "Southern European", "European", or "Caucasian", since each of those designators encompasses many populations with many different geographic ancestries. The reference to these samples in the Italian language is preferred.
> 
> https://catalog.coriell.org/0/Sections/Collections/NHGRI/1000Toscani.aspx?PgId=706&coll=HG





> https://catalog.coriell.org/0/Sectio....aspx?PgId=395


In regards to TSI, I don't think it can be known which town it comes from exactly. According to the written statement, they chose to refer to it at _Citta X_. The closest we can know is that it is from a small town near Florence. Moreover, the requirement was 3 out of 4 ancestors from the region of Tuscany.




> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

----------


## Pax Augusta

> https://catalog.coriell.org/0/Sectio....aspx?PgId=395
> In regards to TSI, I don't think it can be known which town it comes from exactly. According to the written statement, they chose to refer to it at _Citta X_. The closest we can know is that it is from a small town near Florence. Moreover, the requirement was 3 out of 4 ancestors from the region of Tuscany.


Thanks for sharing, we've already discussed here about TSI. Probably a minority of Tuscans of TSI are 1/4 mixed, and most likely with southern Italians. Who knows. But TSI is a big sample (more than 100 individuals) and overall the TSI average is a bit more northern-shifted than the Tuscan HGDP average from southern Tuscany. In Tuscany there is even an internal cline. 

Anyway Lazarids is using in his PCAs the other sample (Tuscan HGDP) from southern Tuscany towards Lazio. You can even count them: they are 8. While Northern Italians in Lazaridis' PCAs are Bergamo HGDP, they are 13. In the last paper for the the Greeks Lazaridis has also used Greeks from Thessaloniki, Macedonia. I don't know anything about the Albanians, if they are northern or southern Albanians.

----------


## Jovialis

> Thanks for sharing, we've already discussed here about TSI. Probably a minority of Tuscans of TSI are 1/4 mixed, and most likely with southern Italians. Who knows. But TSI is a big sample (more than 100 individuals) and overall the TSI average is a bit more northern-shifted than the Tuscan HGDP average from southern Tuscany. In Tuscany there is even an internal cline. 
> 
> Anyway Lazarids is using in his PCAs the other sample (Tuscan HGDP) from southern Tuscany towards Lazio. You can even count them: they are 8. While Northern Italians in Lazaridis' PCAs are Bergamo HGDP, they are 13. In the last paper for the the Greeks Lazaridis has also used Greeks from Thessaloniki, Macedonia. I don't know anything about the Albanians, if they are northern or southern Albanians.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...e.0043759.s002





Here's an interesting PCA I've retrieved while looking up the TSI sample. However, I can't verify where specifically they come from in those regions yet.

EDIT:

Getting back to Greek genetics, I guess the Mycenaeans would have been within this range.

----------


## davef

So many oddities in that pca! Why are some of those north Italians plotting that far south? And are those Italians grouping with the Sardinians half Sardinian (likewise, are those Sardinians they plot with half Italian?)? 

Quite a bit of diversity within some of these regions!

----------


## Pax Augusta

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...e.0043759.s002
> Here's an interesting PCA I've retrieved while looking up the TSI sample. However, I can't verify where specifically they come from in those regions yet.


Old study, I don't know if it was discussed on Eupedia. They mixed many samples of different source (HGDP, HapMap, MESO, GEO-IT...) with some samples collected by themselves. HapMap and TSI are the same thing in that study because TSI was part of the HapMap project. So in the PCA there are likely also TSI samples. But for an unclear reason, Di Gaetano only used 76 out of 114.

I remember little of that study, that of Fiorito seemed more complete. I remember only that the few North and Central Italians who cluster with Southern Italians were seen by Razib and other bloggers as a signature of recent internal Italian migrations. As Fiorito himself admitted a few years later, the first Italian studies had underestimated the impact of migrations and used not very accurate samples.

Here you can find details



Anyway we are too much off-topic, this thread is about the genetics of the Greek Peleponessus, not of Italy.

Angela, can you please move all the last posts about Italy in the Fiorito 2015 or Sazzini thread?

There were two newer Italian papers about the Italian genetics. Sazzini could be of interest to you because includes also Apulians.

Fiorito 2015

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ito-et-al-2015

Sazzini 2016

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...lian-peninsula

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Getting back to Greek genetics, I guess the Mycenaeans would have been within this range.


Interesting, but I don't think you can do that. Di Gaetano PCA is the scatter plot "of the first two eigenvectors based on 125,799 autosomal SNPs and 1,012 individuals". Not all the PCAs are based on the same. Is the Lazaridis PCA based on the same? 





> So many oddities in that pca! Why are some of those north Italians plotting that far south? And are those Italians grouping with the Sardinians half Sardinian (likewise, are those Sardinians they plot with half Italian?)? Quite a bit of diversity within some of these regions!


Because not all the northern (and central) Italians used as samples were fully native. This is maybe true also for Sardinians (Sardinians can have partial ancestry from mainland Italy).

Anyway, here is the Fiorito's answer to your question. Fiorito is an Italian geneticist Fiorito who collaborated on the 2012 study posted by Jovialis, and he was the main author of a 2015 update.

the quote comes from the 2015 update




> In a previous study, (1) we provided a first overview of the genetic composition of Italians, selecting individuals based on the place of birth only, but we were not able to discriminate between Northern and Central Italians. We observed that a proportion of individuals born in Northern Italy clustered with Southern Italians. This was explained by the internal migration that occurred during the last two generations, when people from Southern Italy left their place of origin looking for better economic opportunities in the North. 
> 
> 
> (1) Di Gaetano C, Voglino F, Guarrera S et al: An overview of the genetic structure within the Italian population from genome-wide data. PLoS One 2012; 7 : e43759.


The Italian genome reflects the history of Europe and the Mediterranean basin. Available from: 
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erranean_basin [accessed Sep 11, 2017].

----------


## Jovialis

> DNA samples were obtained from 49 unrelated volunteers from four different Italian macro-areas (Tuscany, Sicily, Piedmont and Sardinia). Details of the affiliation of the municipalities within the macro-areas mentioned in this work are described in Figure S2.*These individuals were grouped according to their birth place, and were selected to have their parents and four grandparents born in the same region. This small sample set is not a random sample of the modern, admixed population, but rather it should approach the historical population structure.*
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440425/#pone.0043759.s002


It appears this study accounted for the recent internal migrations though.

Edit:
I just saw you recent post now, so I guess they didn't.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> It appears this study accounted for the recent internal migrations though.
> 
> Edit:
> I just saw you recent post now, so I guess they didn't.


They obviously didn't (and a birth place doesn't mean anything). They were even forced to admit that.

----------


## Jovialis

> They obviously didn't (and a birth place doesn't mean anything). They were even forced to admit that.




Why does the TSI sample (*At least 3/4th ancestry near Florence), from a single town have some overlap with Sicilians though? This study is from march 2017. It doesn't look that far off from that 2012 study, at least in regards to the Tuscans.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/fig_tab/ejhg201718f2.html?foxtrotcallback=true#figure-title

BTW, I'm genuinely curious about this; not trying to beg the question.

Edit: I even see a couple for the other sample Tuscan.

Edit 2: I guess this is not necessarily off-topic, since it was originally in regards to my question to Angela, about Tuscan relation to the Ancient Greeks. Thus its constructive I think.  :Big smile:

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Why does the TSI sample (*At least 3/4th ancestry near Florence), from a single town have some overlap with Sicilians though? This study is from march 2017. It doesn't look that far off from that 2012 study, at least in regards to the Tuscans.
> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v25/n5/fig_tab/ejhg201718f2.html?foxtrotcallback=true#figure-title
> BTW, I'm genuinely curious about this; not trying to beg the question.
> Edit: I even see a couple for the other sample Tuscan.
> Edit 2: I guess this is not necessarily off-topic, since it was originally in regards to my question to Angela, about Tuscan relation to the Ancient Greeks. Thus its constructive I think.



That PCA is from the Greek study, and it's the opposite, it's some Sicilian who goes further north. In that PCA Sicilians range from Peloponnese (in that specific PCA Peloponnesians are south of TSI/central Italians) to south west of TSI average slightly towards Sardinians. Sicily was repopulated in the middle ages after the Norman conquest, even with colonists who were from northern Italy. 

TSI in that study overlaps more with Italians, who are north Italians from Lombardy and Venetians. There is even some Venetian who plots in the TSI cluster. Well, I've never seen a Venetian on gedmatch who gets as first population "Tuscan", they are usually even more north-eastern than Lombards.

Once again, ask yourself what a specific PCA represents, not all PCAs are based on the same. Unfortunately the Greek study is not very clear. It seems too interested in showing a similarity between Greeks and Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan peoples.

A Tuscan relation to the Ancient Greeks? Very little, except a very very few Tuscans who could descend from the Mycenaeans/ancient Greeks and a shared neolithic/bronze age mediterranean substratum. From an autosomal point of view when two samples show similar amounts of ancestral components does not imply that these components have exactly the same origin.

----------


## Jovialis

> That PCA is from the Greek study, and it's the opposite, it's some Sicilian who goes further north. In that PCA Sicilians range from Peloponnese (in that specific PCA Peloponnesians are south of TSI/central Italians) to south west of TSI average slightly towards Sardinians. Sicily was repopulated in the middle ages after the Norman conquest, even with colonists who were from northern Italy. 
> 
> TSI in that study overlaps more with Italians, who are north Italians from Lombardy and Venetians. There is even some Venetian who plots in the TSI cluster. Well, I've never seen a Venetian on gedmatch who gets as first population "Tuscan", they are usually even more north-eastern than Lombards.
> *
> Once again, ask yourself what a specific PCA represents, not all PCAs are based on the same. Unfortunately the Greek study is not very clear. It seems too interested in showing a similarity between Greeks and Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan peoples.*
> 
> A Tuscan relation to the Ancient Greeks? Very little, except a very very few Tuscans who could descend from the Mycenaeans/ancient Greeks and a shared neolithic/bronze age mediterranean substratum. From an autosomal point of view when two samples show similar amounts of ancestral components does not imply that these components have exactly the same origin.


So what you're saying is you doubt the study for this thread?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> So what you're saying is you doubt the study for this thread?


What I've said, this study seems too interested in showing a similarity between Greeks and Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan peoples. 95% of similarity with the Italians? It seems frankly too high. And why did they not specify who these Italians are? What does "shared ancestry" exactly mean?

And, above all, why did they use in their comparisons only northern Slavic populations (Russians, Polish, Belarussians, Ukranians) and not southern Slavic populations like Bulgarians, Serbs or Macedonians (from Fyrom)? 

Obviously there is a similarity between Greeks, Italians and other populations in southern Europe. But the lack of clarity of the study in certain passages of the paper and other details suggest some conclusions are somewhat exaggerated.

----------


## Jovialis

> What I've said, this study seems too interested in showing a similarity between Greeks and Italians to distance themselves from other Balkan peoples. 95% of similarity with the Italians? It seems frankly too high. And why did they not specify who these Italians are? What does "shared ancestry" exactly mean?
> 
> And, above all, why did they use in their comparisons only northern Slavic populations (Russians, Polish, Belarussians, Ukranians) and not southern Slavic populations like Bulgarians, Serbs or Macedonians (from Fyrom)? 
> 
> Obviously there is a similarity between Greeks, Italians and other populations in southern Europe. But the lack of clarity of the study in certain passages of the paper and other details suggest some conclusions are somewhat exaggerated.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

But doesn't the PCA make it clear which Italians they are referring to?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title
> But doesn't the PCA make it clear which Italians they are referring to?


Since you say it is clear, is "Italians" on table 2 an average of all the Italian samples? If not, what is it? 

In that PCA only northern Italians from Bergamo are labeled as Italians. 

So, have some Peloponessians 95% of shared ancestry with northern Italians from Bergamo?

----------


## Jovialis

> Since you say it is clear, is it an average of all the Italian samples? If not, what is it? 
> 
> In that PCA only northern Italians from Bergamo are labeled as Italians. 
> 
> So, have some Peloponessians 95% of shared ancestry with northern Italians from Bergamo?



Clearly its inferring the TSI group.




> *b) PCA analysis of Southern European populations illustrating the close relationship between Peloponneseans Sicilians and Italians (TSI is an Italian population)
> *http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...e#figure-title

----------


## Angela

As Pax pointed out, the DeGaetano study is seriously flawed as they only considered place of birth for the samples they themselves collected. I complained to them at the time. I couldn't believe they made such a stupid mistake in a country which has experienced such massive internal migration from south to north. It's virtually useless as a result of that mistake imo because there's no untangling it now.

As for the subject paper, which is what we should be discussing on this thread, they were definitely sloppy in some of the presentation, not carefully labeling which precise groups of Italians were being portrayed in various graphs and tables. That doesn't invalidate the general conclusions at least in so far as Greeks and the southern Italians, at least, are concerned. Also, I'd just point out that similarity does not necessarily imply migration from Mycenaean (or Minoan) Greece, or first millennium BC Greece (from which we have as yet no samples) to Sicily and Southern Italy. It could be the result of similar Neolithic or even early Bronze Age migration from one or more populations to both places. We just won't know until we have samples from the appropriate time periods in Italy, and even then it may be difficult to disentangle it because of the similarities.

As to why there aren't reference samples from the Balkans, we've already discussed it. The purpose of the paper was to debunk Nordicist 19th century speculations that modern Greeks are the result of admixture between "Slavic" populations and recent Near Eastern migrants, both of whom were considered "inferior" peoples by the Nordicists of the time. Regardless, that has nothing to do with comparisons to Italians.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Clearly its inferring the TSI group.


I have read enough studies to say that it's not so clear, Jovialis. They are not saying that Italians in table 2 are TSI only, or TSI + Sicilians. 

They are saying that Peloponnesians show a close relationship with Sicilians and Italians (TSI is an Italian population). The words in brackets does not mean what you are trying to prove. They are just explaining what the acronym TSI is, being that TSI is the only Italian sample labeled with an acronym (the other one is IBS, Iberians).

----------


## Jovialis

> I have read enough studies to say that it's not so clear, Jovialis. They are not saying that Italians in table 2 are TSI only, or TSI + Sicilians. 
> 
> They are saying that Peloponnesians show a close relationship with Sicilians and Italians (TSI is an Italian population). The words in brackets does not mean what *you are trying to prove.*


You're extremely presumptuous, and rude. I'm merely linking the graphic from the study, and asking questions.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> You're extremely presumptuous, and rude. I'm merely linking the graphic from the study, and asking questions.


And you're extremely ticklish and touchy.

----------


## davef

The study finds 85-96 percent similarity between the Greeks and south Italians, not Tuscans or north Italains. And the greater difference seems to be from additional Slavic ancestry. If you take a look at the first pca, the Greeks who don't plot with Sicily are more north and closer to the 85 percent figure, again due to additional Slavic.

----------


## Jovialis

> And you're extremely ticklish and touchy.


Oh I forgot, you're a mind reader, you can even read the intentions of the geneticists that wrote this study. Also, why don't you at least substantiate some of your claims. Your *perceived* authority on the subject means *nothing* to me. At least for every comment I made, I linked a legitimate source. On top of that, I wasn't asserting _anything_, I was merely bringing to light some questions I had. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!

Another unsubstantiated claim , I recall you said it couldn't be known due to Patricians practicing cremation. Now you're absolutely sure.

BTW, you were wrong about the TSI, and it's location, because it cannot be known other than it's near Florence. Where do you get your information from?!

I even e-mailed the company



Another instant of you being wrong.

I was wrong about that other study, and concede that because you actually linked a source by the author critiquing the study I found. See how it works? This is why I called you presumptuous. It's an observation, not an insult.

Do me a favor, and don't assume anything about me ever again.

----------


## Angela

Gentlemen, please, let's dial it back, ok.? There's no need for this. Enough.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Oh I forgot, you're a mind reader, you can even read the intentions of the geneticists that wrote this study. Also, why don't you at least substantiate some of your claims. Your *perceived* authority on the subject means *nothing* to me. At least for every comment I made, I linked a legitimate source. On top of that, I wasn't asserting _anything_, I was merely bringing to light some questions I had. Sorry if that hurt your feelings!


What should I substantiate? That you're a bit touchy? You're acting like that, but I'm not angry with you. In Italy it is the end of the summer, I feel extremely relaxed, the heat wave is finally over, but you can still go for nightclubs at night, and there are still many tourists around. For this reason, I dedicate you this Italian summer hit, including to all the Italians who don't live in Italy. As a sign of peace and friendship. I'm not joking. :)







> BTW, you were wrong about the TSI, and it's location, because it cannot be known other than it's near Florence.


What would be wrong? Lazaridis uses indeed the HGDP sample in the PCA, it's enough to count them: 8. The PCA you've posted is from another author. Then, Lazaridis has, if memory serves me, used TSI for other kind of analysis in some of his previous papers, but not for the PCA. 



And what would be the other mistake on TSI? That they are not from south-east of Florence? 




> Another instant of you being wrong.


Ok.




> I was wrong about that other study, and concede that because you actually linked a source by the author critiquing the study I found. See how it works? This is why I called you presumptuous. It's an observation, not an insult.


Ok.

----------


## Jovialis

> As a sign of peace and friendship. I'm not joking. :)


Peace

 :Cool V: 

Edit:

Let's move the discussion to this thread. I will answer when I get home.

----------


## Angela

We should have posted that song in the Italian music thread. :) 

From it, I think the sensible take-away is that one should feel sorry for anyone who isn't young, beautiful, and in Italy in the summer, and that includes me. :)

Pace, indeed, gentlemen.

----------


## LATGAL

> I can't quite tell. Are you agreeing with me or not? :)
> 
> Generally speaking, Albanians are eastern shifted Tuscans.


Sorry for the late response but I was agreeing of course (basically restating your main point more verbosely) and disagreeing with sile. And yes, Albanians and mainland Greeks look like 'eastern'-shifted Tuscans. I'm guesing it's due to Tuscans apparently having slightly greater EEF+WHG and Albanians/Greeks slightly greater steppe+extra CHG/Iran_N.

In those West Eurasian PCAs in the recent papers (for example) Southern Europe basically makes a Y shape with the stem (i.e. populations closer together) being South Italians/Sicilians + Greek islanders and Albanians/Greeks + Tuscans and the two horns (i.e. populations more apart on the PCA) being North Italians+Iberians and Slavic-speaking Balkanites. This (increasing) difference seems to be mostly caused by slightly higher amounts of steppe+Iran in the Balkan populations and slightly higher EEF+WHG in the 'equivalent' Italian and Iberian ones.




> The study finds 85-96 percent similarity between the Greeks and south Italians, not Tuscans or north Italains. And the greater difference seems to be from additional Slavic ancestry. If you take a look at the first pca, the Greeks who don't plot with Sicily are more north and closer to the 85 percent figure, again due to additional Slavic.


Keep in mind that South Italy and Sicily (and Greek islanders) also apparently have more post-Neolithic Near Eastern input compared to mainland Greeks (and other Italians), if we use those Mycenaeans as a tentative baseline, so it's not just due to extra northern ancestry in mainland Greeks. Either way, our Italian and Balkan sampling is still in its infancy so you can just guess at the fine(r) details at this point.

----------


## LATGAL

> What does "shared ancestry" exactly mean?


The average of the shared components in K4 to K8 ADMIXTURE runs. It's not exactly the best method but they're communicating what they're doing pretty clearly.




> And, above all, why did they use in their comparisons only northern Slavic populations (Russians, Polish, Belarussians, Ukranians) and not southern Slavic populations like Bulgarians, Serbs or Macedonians (from Fyrom)?


Because they were trying to estimate early Slavic ancestry in Greeks. Using populations that clearly already have a good chunk of pre-Slavic Balkan ancestry shared with Greeks would confound things. Limited as well but I think it's clear what they were trying to do in this case too.

----------


## Pax Augusta

> Sorry for the late response but I was agreeing of course (basically restating your main point more verbosely) and disagreeing with sile. And yes, Albanians and mainland Greeks look like 'eastern'-shifted Tuscans. I'm guesing it's due to Tuscans apparently having slightly greater EEF+WHG and Albanians/Greeks slightly greater steppe+extra CHG/Iran_N.
> In those West Eurasian PCAs in the recent papers (for example) Southern Europe basically makes a Y shape with the stem (i.e. populations closer together) being South Italians/Sicilians + Greek islanders and Albanians/Greeks + Tuscans and the two horns (i.e. populations more apart on the PCA) being North Italians+Iberians and Slavic-speaking Balkanites. This (increasing) difference seems to be mostly caused by slightly higher amounts of steppe+Iran in the Balkan populations and slightly higher EEF+WHG in the 'equivalent' Italian and Iberian ones.


It's even more simple, they are mostly using a sample from south Tuscany from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) . A regional Tuscan average is a bit more northwest than that, a bit closer to Bergamo.

----------


## ihype02

> Because they were trying to estimate early Slavic ancestry in Greeks. Using populations that clearly already have a good chunk of pre-Slavic Balkan ancestry shared with Greeks would confound things. Limited as well but I think it's clear what they were trying to do in this case too.


Sure they were.

----------


## LATGAL

> It's even more simple, they are mostly using a sample from south Tuscany from the Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) . A regional Tuscan average is a bit more northwest than that, a bit closer to Bergamo.


That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.




> Sure they were.


Dude, it's obvious you don't even have an interest in actually trying to understand these analyses in the first place based on some other comments. What exactly does this post of yours contribute?

----------


## ihype02

> That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.


They even score closer to Greeks than the Sicilians in some studies.



> Dude, it's obvious you don't even have an interest in actually trying to understand these analyses in the first place based on some other comments. What exactly does this post of yours contribute?


The study was done specifically to test the theory of Fallmerayer otherwise it wouldn't include Levantines.

----------


## LATGAL

> They even score closer to Greeks than the Sicilians in some studies.


Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.




> The study was done specifically to test the theory of Fallmerayer otherwise it wouldn't include Levantines.


I'm talking about specifically the 'early Slavic' element. If they included Bulgaro-Macedonians and Serbo-Croats, they'd confuse things (especially with this limited ADMIXTURE approach) since those have a decent amount of Balkan ancestry already. You can tell by how close some of those are to Albanians and Greeks vs populations closer to the proto-Slavic urheimat (that would have admixed with more similar populations in the first place) like Ukrainians and Poles.

We can disagree on some things but at least take some time to understand what's exactly going on in that analysis instead of offering purely snarky comments that add nothing. Unless you were actually agreeing with me with your previous post, in which case I misunderstood you.

----------


## ihype02

I wonder why Tsakonians differ from others.

----------


## Pratt

> Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.





> That seems to be the case. From what I've seen, some Tuscan samples seem to cluster a bit more towards the Balkans than others.



Dodecad K12 has two different Tuscan sample, TSI30 and Tuscan (HGDP).This is the PCA done based on the matrix of variance-covariance. Nothing unusual, everyone is in his place.





Here is the PCA based on the matrix of correlation. TSI30 remains in the Italian cluster and closer to the north of Italy, while Tuscan (HGDP) goes even in the direction of Bulgaria followed by the Greek sample. I do not like throwing hasty conclusions but Tuscan (HGDP) seems to have a shift towards the Balkans completely missing in the other Tuscan sample. Why?

----------


## Angela

> Dodecad K12 has two different Tuscan sample, TSI30 and Tuscan (HGDP).This is the PCA done based on the the matrix of variance-covariance. Nothing unusual, everyone is in their place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the PCA based on the matrix of correlation. TSI30 remains in the Italian cluster and closer to the north of Italy, while Tuscan HGDP goes even in the direction of Bulgaria followed by the Greek sample. I do not like throwing hasty conclusions but Tuscan (HGDP) seems to have a shift towards the Balkans completely missing in the other Tuscan sample. Why?


I don't know, but back in the old days at 23andme where they provided all sorts of data for other people if you agreed to share with them, it was my impression that everybody from Rome south had some Balkan, and the further east they were the more they had, whereas Northwest Italians had more Iberian and much less or no Balkan. North east Italians did have high Balkan scores. That HGDP Tuscan sample is closer to Rome than it is to Firenze.

----------


## Pratt

> I don't know, but back in the old days at 23andme where they provided all sorts of data for other people if you agreed to share with them, it was my impression that everybody from Rome south had some Balkan, and the further east they were the more they had, whereas Northwest Italians had more Iberian and much less or no Balkan. North east Italians did have high Balkan scores. That HGDP Tuscan sample is closer to Rome than it is to Firenze.


From what I understand PCA based on correlation may "be more informative and reveals some structure in the data and relationships between variables", I'm quoting the exact words of an expert user on PCA. So maybe this PCA may reveal indeed a Balkan influence which differentiates the two Tuscan samples.

I do agree with that you Northwest Italians are those who have less Balkan influence, which instead exists in the Northeast Italians.

----------


## ihype02

> Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.


But why is that central Italy is closer to Greece and Albania than let's say Anatolia?

----------


## Angela

> But why is that central Italy is closer to Greece and Albania than let's say Anatolia?


Is that supposed to be a serious question?

----------


## ihype02

> Is that supposed to be a serious question?


It is. 
-- Here is one map showing Greece closer to Anatolia (Turkey/TR) than Italy. So it depends on the composition and calculation. 
Attachment 9278
Link:https://image.ibb.co/jZ2QDk/main_qim...bd5fbb19_c.jpg

----------


## LATGAL

> It is. 
> -- Here is one map showing Greece closer to Anatolia (Turkey/TR) than Italy. So it depends on the composition and calculation. 
> Attachment 9278
> Link:https://image.ibb.co/jZ2QDk/main_qim...bd5fbb19_c.jpg


That PCA is pretty old and doesn't seem to use good, representative sampling overall. Check out more recent stuff. You don't get a great reception because people are unsure whether you've just not kept up with this stuff _at all_ or are just trawling, I think. :)

----------


## matadworf

> It is. 
> -- Here is one map showing Greece closer to Anatolia (Turkey/TR) than Italy. So it depends on the composition and calculation. 
> Attachment 9278
> Link:https://image.ibb.co/jZ2QDk/main_qim...bd5fbb19_c.jpg


The map your referencing has Greeks overlapping with Italians (not sure of the region), Albanians, Bulgarians but honestly it just looks really scrambled.

----------


## cybernautic

> The extreme similarity of the people of the Peloponnese to "Italians" means Sicilians. at least if you're talking about actual "overlap". They compared the people of the *Peloponnese* with Sicilians, Tuscans, and Northern Italians, among others*.* Those groups are indeed on a cline, but *the overlap is between the Peloponnese and Sicilians, not Peloponnese and Tuscans, and certainly not Peloponnese and Northern Italians. 
> *
> My goodness; does no one study graphs and stats?
> 
> Attachment 8550
> 
> Click to enlarge. 
> 
> The aqua is Tuscan, the green Sicilian (not Abuzzese or Campanian, although I wish they'd done it), and the red the Peloponnese, not Crete or the islands or Anatolia. 
> ...


Exactly this





> What you fail to understand or refuse to understand is that this particular paper had only one purpose, and that was to refute the speculations of the 19th century racists that the ancient Greeks were "Nordics", and that later Greeks were the product of massive migrations from both "Slavic" countries and the Near East. It was not to determine the ethnic make-up of Albanians or their impact on Greece


Precisely^




> Look, I know it's sticking in the craw of some Balkanites that the Mycenaeans, and no doubt the classical Greeks, who gave so much to Europe and indeed the world are closer genetically even to mainland Greeks than they are to people from further north in the Balkans, but it is what it is, and you just look ridiculous trying to desperately deny it



Yes,bet unfortunately alot of this kind fora are disproportionaly filled with the sort of morons you describe
here who support this crap in contrast to people like you with a reasonable view.

----------


## Beema

What is Gaussian method? Is that part of gedmatch ? How do I access that ?

----------


## Baxxter

> Err yes, some Italian populations/samples seem to be a bit closer to some Greek ones than other Italian ones and some Greek ones seem to be a bit closer to some Italian populations than some Greek ones. Mainland Greece + Tuscany (+ Albania) vs the Aegean and South Italy/Sicily. It's probably due to greater later steppe ancestry in the former and greater near eastern ancestry in the latter added to the Neolithic base.


"Mainland Greece"? There is Northern Hellas and South Hellas. North Hellas is Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace and South is Peloponnese. In some extent i would include the regions down to about Lamia though as well as to what we Northern Hellenes cluster with then people with heritage 
from Attica/Athens and Peloponnese/south Aegean isles. So Northern Hellenes cluster with Tuscans of Central Italy specifically. Albanians do not cluster with neither cause they are not Euros. My guess is you are Peloponnese(?). 

The next subject is also relevant to the subject in a political way. In Italy there is various autonomous parties, for example the party Lega Nord. In Hellas there is no autonomous party for Northern Hellas, although there should be. The current situation is a Hellas which includes Crete, which is not even Hellas. So except Cretans, there are the Minor Asians(or "Anatolian Greeks"), Pontiacs, and Cretans having privilege(!) to vote for the whole Hellas. So not only dont we have a separation from Lamia and upwards North Hellas from South Hellas but we also have this "turk-seeds"(as we call them) having privilege to vote for Hellas.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> "Mainland Greece"? There is Northern Hellas and South Hellas. North Hellas is Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace and South is Peloponnese. In some extent i would include the regions down to about Lamia though as well as to what we Northern Hellenes cluster with then people with heritage 
> from Attica/Athens and Peloponnese/south Aegean isles. So Northern Hellenes cluster with Tuscans of Central Italy specifically. Albanians do not cluster with neither *cause they are not Euros*. My guess is you are Peloponnese(?). 
> 
> The next subject is also relevant to the subject in a political way. In Italy there is various autonomous parties, for example the party Lega Nord. In Hellas there is no autonomous party for Northern Hellas, although there should be. The current situation is a Hellas which includes Crete, which is not even Hellas. So except Cretans, there are the Minor Asians(or "Anatolian Greeks"), Pontiacs, and Cretans having privilege(!) to vote for the whole Hellas. So not only dont we have a separation from Lamia and upwards North Hellas from South Hellas but we also have this "turk-seeds"(as we call them) having privilege to vote for Hellas.


Do you know what Evropa means in ancient Greek? 

Go find out then tell me who is "Evro" and who is not.

Edit to point out that you are a blatant Racist. You are hating the culture you claim you descend from. For that I pity you.

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> Do you know what Evropa means in ancient Greek? 
> 
> Go find out then tell me who is "Evro" and who is not.
> 
> Edit to point out that you are a blatant Racist. You are hating the culture you claim you descend from. For that I pity you.


He can't be racist1 He is from Greece!

----------


## Baxxter

> Do you know what Evropa means in ancient Greek? 
> 
> Go find out then tell me who is "Evro" and who is not.
> 
> Edit to point out that you are a blatant Racist. You are hating the culture you claim you descend from. For that I pity you.


What?  :Laughing:  . I will repeat it again, seems so funny to see the reaction/comments(obviously you seem to like hanging on threads with Greek in it) of the Albanians in this forum. And how was my post clicked "negative", the report triangle(?) or what. Anyway, Albanians are not euros. Over and out.

----------


## Angela

There is no t-rolling of other nationalities or sub-nationalities permitted here, and that applies to EVERYONE.

Get back to discussing the science of the paper, if you have the capacity. Otherwise, go elsewhere.

----------


## Nik

> What?  . I will repeat it again, seems so funny to see the reaction/comments(obviously you seem to like hanging on threads with Greek in it) of the Albanians in this forum. And how was my post clicked "negative", the report triangle(?) or what. Anyway, Albanians are not euros. Over and out.


A Thessalian (Vlach-Albanian mix) calls Albanians not European? 

Post your picture on the anthropological section and lets see how Lebanese you look compared to your compatriots.

----------


## Angela

> A Thessalian (Vlach-Albanian mix) calls Albanians not European? 
> 
> Post your picture on the anthropological section and lets see how Lebanese you look compared to your compatriots.


I get it, Nik, but don't let him goad you into breaking the rules. He already got an infraction, and he'll get more if he continues to break the rules.

----------


## Nik

> I get it, Nik, but don't let him goad you into breaking the rules. He already got an infraction, and he'll get more if he continues to break the rules.


You're right. I apologize for that. I guess he found me in a moment of weakness.

----------


## Angela

> You're right. I apologize for that. I guess he found me in a moment of weakness.


Believe me, I understand.

----------


## johen

I hope we can see the following strangely-buried person’s DNA next time.(The others supine type unlike bellbeaker)

Of course, he would be heavily mixed with Steppe like Bellbeaker, but not origin of Greek bronze. 
Moreover, I posted horse burial at Greek Bronze and their skull types which is related to cromagnon. 
So the next research result would be same as scythian paper; all roads lead to pontic steppe. 

However, this burial type is very important, b/c I think he shows his identity. You can see a similarity between altai petroglyph in the link and the burial. The pertroglyph means “sky.” A chinese character, 天 Tian (means sky) originated in this altai petroglyph. 

The petroglyph is exetremly important, b/c it is connected to mesoamerica and Hindu, china bronze, now ancient Greek.
Whatever the result comes, I anticipate to seeing a future research to comprehensively cover china bronze and mesoamerica regarding PIE origin.


*Fig 4. The warrior burials at grave circle B at Mycenae, with Avila type II spearheads.*
*https://adnaera.com/2018/11/17/the-b...age-in-europe/*

*Altai petroglyph*
*https://cogniarchae.com/2016/11/06/t...headed-figure/*

*origin of* *天*
**
*https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9

*P.s:
looks like the above black one also appears in IVC 2,000bc with chariot.https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...mnayan-decline (post 4)

----------


## Georgewalley

> What?  . I will repeat it again, seems so funny to see the reaction/comments(obviously you seem to like hanging on threads with Greek in it) of the Albanians in this forum. And how was my post clicked "negative", the report triangle(?) or what. Anyway, Albanians are not euros. Over and out.


Tosk Albanians, Epirotes, Thessalians fall in the same genetic cluster. The main difference you speak a different language and was raised by different cultural, religious customs.

Random Albanian Eurogenes K13 result:


*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Greek_Thessaly
4.51

2
Tuscan
7.31

3
West_Sicilian
7.89

4
Italian_Abruzzo
8.88

5
Central_Greek
9.26

6
East_Sicilian
9.74

7
Bulgarian
10.7

8
Ashkenazi
11.23

9
North_Italian
11.53

10
South_Italian
12.22

11
Romanian
12.31

12
Serbian
15.94

13
Italian_Jewish
16.83

14
Algerian_Jewish
16.84

15
Sephardic_Jewish
17.47

16
Portuguese
19.4

17
Spanish_Extremadura
19.73

18
Spanish_Galicia
20.52

19
Spanish_Murcia
20.78

20
Spanish_Andalucia
20.86



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

66.9%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
33.1%
 Tuscan
 @ 
3.12

2

83.9%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
16.1%
 Estonian_Polish
 @ 
3.18

3

81.8%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
18.2%
 Ukrainian
 @ 
3.23

4

85.7%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
14.3%
 Lithuanian
 @ 
3.26

5

87%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
13%
 Spanish_Valencia
 @ 
3.27

6

78.1%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
21.9%
 North_Italian
 @ 
3.28

7

84.2%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
15.8%
 Belorussian
 @ 
3.3

8

83.2%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
16.8%
 Southwest_Russian
 @ 
3.31

9

87%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
13%
 Spanish_Murcia
 @ 
3.32

10

89.3%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
10.7%
 Spanish_Aragon
 @ 
3.36

11

87.3%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
12.7%
 Spanish_Andalucia
 @ 
3.37

12

84%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
16%
 Russian_Smolensk
 @ 
3.4

13

86.6%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
13.4%
 Portuguese
 @ 
3.4

14

87.9%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
12.1%
 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
 @ 
3.43

15

77.6%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
22.4%
 Croatian
 @ 
3.44

16

88.5%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
11.5%
 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
 @ 
3.45

17

87%
 Greek_Thessaly
 + 
13%
 Spanish_Extremadura
 @ 
3.45

18

84.6%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
15.4%
 Kargopol_Russian
 @ 
3.46

19

85.6%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
14.4%
 Estonian
 @ 
3.46

20

58.8%
 West_Sicilian
 + 
41.2%
 Bulgarian
 @ 
3.47


*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
East_Med
26.13

2
West_Med
22.44

3
North_Atlantic
21.4

4
Baltic
15.44

5
West_Asian
8.22

6
Red_Sea
3.48

7
Siberian
0.97

8
Sub-Saharan
0.6

9
Oceanian
0.56

10
Amerindian
0.37

11
Northeast_African
0.32

12
East_Asian
0.07

----------


## LABERIA

> Tosk Albanians, Epirotes, Thessalians fall in the same genetic cluster. The main difference you speak a different language and was raised by different cultural, religious customs.
> 
> Random Albanian Eurogenes K13 result:
> 
> 
> *Single Population Sharing:*
> 
> *#*
> *Population (source)*
> ...


I want to correct you something. Does not exist two separate groups, Tosk and Epirote. Until the year 1923, Epir or Toskeria, it`s the same, was a region inhabitated since antiquity by Albanians and a later by a Vlach minority. In year 1912, the Southern part of Epir was invaded by Greece and is still under Greek occupation. For 33 years, the Albanian inhabitants(the Muslims) were killed or expelled from their native land, meanwhile the Christian Albanians and the Vlachs were declared Greeks by the greek Governments. In year 1923 there was an exchange of population between Greece and Turkey. Greece settled in South Epir, the Greek part of Epir, some of these people arrived from Asia. Also, during almost one century, there was an internal migration promoted by Greek state from other regions of Greece in Southern Epir. We are the same people with the natives, meanwhile we have no connection with the newcomers.
For further info read these two papers:*

1889-1898
Sami bey Frashëri
Description of Chameria
**
2002
Miranda Vickers:
The Cham Issue: Albanian National and 
Property Claims in Greece*

----------


## Archetype0ne

Last step of genocide/cultural assimilation is denying peoples roots. What do you expect from some people. 
Some Greeks think they are from another planet, or that Albanians are from the Moon (Only one of them can be true). Some of them probably hating themselves... sad state of affairs.

Book me a ticket for Mars already.

----------


## Angela

> Last step of genocide/cultural assimilation is denying peoples roots. What do you expect from some people. 
> Some Greeks think they are from another planet, or that Albanians are from the Moon (Only one of them can be true). Some of them probably hating themselves... sad state of affairs.
> 
> Book me a ticket for Mars already.


You can't go five posts without injecting your political rants and hatred of Greeks. 

KEEP YOUR POLITICS OUT OF THIS SITE OR YOU'RE ALL OUT OF HERE.

----------


## Baxxter

> A Thessalian (Vlach-Albanian mix) calls Albanians not European? 
> 
> Post your picture on the anthropological section and lets see how Lebanese you look compared to your compatriots.


 :Laughing: . It is considered breaking the rules in this forum to speak the truth, according to Angela, and seeing that the posts flooded here are mostly from your race here i have no further interest in contributing. Oh and btw. Vlachia or Wallachia are regions(and also a Hellenic last name as well) in North Hellas - Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, parts in Romania, and also in Serbia etc. Vlach/Wallach is not a race but a blanket term - and of course an European one(But we all already know the answer why YOU would not know that, lack of knowledge or pathetic minor complex ignorance). This is also a term that these Middle Eastern(or turk-seeds as i said before) Greek-speaking races like Pontiacs, Minor Asians and Cretans throw at us Hellenes when we tell THEM the truth. Oh and they also throw in "Albanians" as well. Well known third-world behavior, and they go to history as races not accepting what they are, to keep it short.

----------


## Angela

> . It is considered breaking the rules in this forum to speak the truth, according to Angela(South Italian?), and seeing that the posts flooded here are mostly from your race here i have no further interest in contributing. Oh and btw. Vlachia or Wallachia are regions(and also a Hellenic last name as well) in North Hellas - Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus, parts in Romania, and also in Serbia etc. Vlach/Wallach is not a race but a blanket term - and of course an European one(But we all already know the answer why YOU would not know that, lack of knowledge or pathetic minor complex ignorance). This is also a term that these Middle Eastern(or turk-seeds as i said before) Greek-speaking races like Pontiacs, Minor Asians and Cretans throw at us Hellenes when we tell THEM the truth . Oh and they also throw in "Albanians" as well. Well known third-world behavior, and they go to history as races not accepting what they are, to keep it short.


Sorry. I'm northern Italian and Tuscan, and you're a racist t-roll. 

Get out of here.

----------


## Baxxter

> Sorry. I'm northern Italian and Tuscan, and you're a racist t-roll. 
> 
> Get out of here.


Everybody are racist Angela, racism is everywhere.

Is Tuscany(Umbria and Marche too(?) considered north-central Italy, northern or central?

----------


## Jovialis

> Everybody are racist Angela, racism is everywhere.


You just earned yourself another infraction for this insolent and disruptive display of childishness.

----------


## Baxxter

> You just earned yourself another infraction for this insolent and disruptive display of childishness.


This is what has happened in this week since my very first post in this forum. 

_-I commented to a Hellene LATGAL, because of non-facts comments from his side. - I got a private message describing this as: "hate speech"(obviously it was no "hate speech" to cluster Albanians with Hellenes and Italians by him or that other Albanian guy!), and an infraction which supposedly is something leading to terminal ban i guess. And so it will be - that is very clear, as it is very clear what kind of people you are. 

-I got a second(or third) infraction after my second answer to another Albanian, who was referring to me.

-Angela then called me racist and "t-roll". Which is a hypocritical comment. I then answered and stated the fact that racism is in everybody. Racism are feelings and proceedings between the races among other things in this life. 

-Then, i got another one of these infractions by Jovalis, calling MY comment to Angelas comment insolent! And what is this supposed to result in the end :) ? I stop here, i thought i would contribute in this forum but, no._

----------


## Nik

> This is what has happened in this week since my very first post in this forum. 
> 
> _-I commented to a Hellene LATGAL, because of non-facts comments from his side. - I got a private message describing this as: "hate speech"(obviously it was no "hate speech" to cluster Albanians with Hellenes and Italians by him or that other Albanian guy!), and an infraction which supposedly is something leading to terminal ban i guess. And so it will be - that is very clear, as it is very clear what kind of people you are. 
> 
> -I got a second(or third) infraction after my second answer to another Albanian, who was referring to me.
> 
> -Angela then called me racist and "t-roll". Which is a hypocritical comment. I then answered and stated the fact that racism is in everybody. Racism are feelings and proceedings between the races among other things in this life. 
> 
> -Then, i got another one of these infractions by Jovalis, calling MY comment to Angelas comment insolent! And what is this supposed to result in the end :) ? I stop here, i thought i would contribute in this forum but, no._


Uuu, such darkness. Was it caused by loneliness since childhood? 

And please don't go. Stay with us other kids to play and "contribute". 

Check this threads https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...NA-on-GEDmatch and https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA

It seems that those Cretans you don't consider Hellenic represent the population to the ancient Hellenes you admire. On the other hand, we barbarians (you and me together) plot quite close to the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample, while the Cretans are quite close to even the Iron Age Thracian. 

As a Thessalian, don't you realize that by considering Albanians non-Euro you're dragging yourselves along with us to another hypothetical homeland? Those Pontians and Cretans don't seem that wrong for calling you Vlachs or Albanians as after all Thessaly was the "center of Vlachs" plus a substantial Albanian admixture. 

Nevertheless, it is everyone's right to choose the nations he wants to belong to and I don't blame you, the country of Homer and the Iliad is a pretty strong temptation. 

So come on now, long lost brother, let's put an end to the enmity and embrace the common origin.

----------


## davef

^^ Let's try to move on from him, he'll just get more infuriated and create a new account

----------


## LABERIA

> ^^ Let's try to move on from him, he'll just get more infuriated and create a new account


Your signature need the Enigma machine to be decoded.

----------


## johen

> I hope we can see *the following strangely-buried person*’s DNA next time.(The others supine type unlike bellbeaker)
> 
> Of course, he would be heavily mixed with Steppe like Bellbeaker, but not origin of Greek bronze. 
> Moreover, I posted horse burial at Greek Bronze and their skull types which is related to cromagnon. 
> So the next research result would be same as scythian paper; all roads lead to pontic steppe. 
> 
> However, this burial type is very important, b/c I think he shows his identity. You can see a similarity between altai petroglyph in the link and the burial. The pertroglyph means *“sky.”* A chinese character, 天 Tian (means sky) originated in this altai petroglyph. 
> 
> The petroglyph is exetremly important, b/c it is connected to mesoamerica and Hindu, china bronze, now ancient Greek.
> ...


I just forgot "zeus." Is this guy Zeus? So does PIE word Dyeus originate in altai? 




> worship of a sky god,[4] **Dyḗus* Ph2tḗr (lit. *"sky* father"; > Vedic Sanskrit Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́, Ancient Greek Ζεύς (πατήρ) / *Zeus* (patēr)), vocative *dyeu ph2ter (> Latin Iūpiter, Illyrian Deipaturos)[note 2]


chinese character Dì (帝,"Lord") came from old chinese Dees, which originated in Deus as I remember.

----------


## johen

see also symbols on the face of ancient Greek and modern indian in the following link:




https://cogniarchae.com/2016/11/06/t...headed-figure/

and okunevo two symbols at the bottom of pottery.



https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig9_275275447

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## Baxxter

Hello :) !

There is no free speech on this site, and the temporary ban was done for ridiculous reasons. Also i could not quote "Nik".

First of all i want to say that, indeed the topics i wrote in the first post are not exactly relevant themes of thread. This is however my last comment in this thread. It is not an answer to "Nik"(as i don't do conversations with Albanians) but generally comments i share with anybody here. I am clarifying my own comments, in aspect to Nik's comment, and adding too.

"Uuu, such darkness."? Darkness, lightness....? Things of this earth, yes thank you for the info. Does Nik know what 2+2 is(?). 

When i said that Pontiacs/Minor Asians and Cretans calls us northern Hellenes "Albanians"(and this is one funny example), i meant that this is done OVER THE INTERNET(Youtube etc, just as Nik does) XD ! If we tell them what they ARE, OVER THE NET, they throw at us(except Albanians) also Slavic, Romance, and also Vlachs(add for example "you piece of shit...Vlach" in front  :Grin: ). I have never in real, personally encountered this, and if that would happen it would be nothing more then embarrassment for them, calling Hellenes/Europeans Albanians  :Grin: . Slavic is irrelevant whatsoever as well. About Vlach and Romance(both relevant i think), referring to blanket term Wallachians, is of course not an insult term. Now we don't go around calling ourselves "Wallachians", however it would not be so incorrect term after all though for us northern Hellenes.

Now, the thing in Hellas is that a Romanian/Hellenic term as Wallachian, has ALSO been "referred" as a SLANG-word for something like a "farmer"(i think? not of interest) - which is incorrect. This "farmer slang"(which is of course not synonymous with the actual word Wallachian(Vlachos)) is most likely created by the Minor Asians/Cretans etc, because of their minor complex when we tell them this and that. As a third-world worthless non-productive race(who don't understand that a farmer is one for example who brings milk to their table, among other food  :Rolleyes: ) they considering a farmer most likely something "bad"(?). While farming is a part of the European race. So, when they for example throw the "Wallachian" term to Hellenes, we never know if they mean the blanket term thing, or farmer  :Laughing: . Either way it is not an insult of course, whether one is a farmer or not. This is something every Hellene knows. Also, even northern Hellenes actually use this word as slang word sometimes thrown to each other and others, even-though the meaning is totally irrelevant. I associated with a Minor Asian once. When he found out i told one person in real, turk-seed, he throw to me that this is what the "Wallachians" say to the Minor Asians once. He also told me lately that i am Swedish(! I am born and grown up in Sweden) first and then Hellenic as well  :Laughing: . This is an example of their reaction. I actually meet one person who was partly Minor Asian and he said, to a colleague of mine, that she might as well call him a Turk(eventhough as said he ha also had Hellenic heritage) as well. So i have seen 1-2 examples of this ethnicities so far who actually accept what they are and say it. 

It is also funny that Nik directs his comments to Thessalians exclusively  :Grin: . Nik, you are an Albanian after all, and that alone is an explanation enough regarding your behavior/mentality.

I don't understand exactly why Nik mentioned Homer but here it goes. Homer was a Hellene. It is said that he was born in Chios or Ionia. Ionia is Minor Asia and that is not Hellas. Minor Asia was a colony with Hellenes who came from Hellas. In ancient times Hellenes went both west(all the way to south France), south(To Egypt, see Alexandria(city with Hellenic name) and pyramids which are Hellenic products) and east towards Middle East(Minor Asia, Black sea Jordan etc). However these Minor Asians/Pontiacs after many many years are not Hellenes, they are mixed with Turks/Armenians etc. Another fact regarding their heritage is that Hellenes/(Europeans) did not FLEE when they where attacked in Hellas in the past wars. Minor Asians and Pontiacs DID flee when the Turks invaded their colonies, and they fled to Hellas around 1922(The Asia Minor Catastrophe).

Nik seems to like or want to be a Hellene judging by his comments, and i did wonder why he had a Hoplite as a profile-pic  :Laughing: .

Last but not least. I will answer this accordingly to your comment Nik: You DON'T have the right too choose the nation you want to belong too, whether it be Switzerland or Hellas. You cluster with Georgians etc and i close by adding that south Albania was also once a Hellenic territory.

----------


## Pericles

Population transfer of refugees from Turkey, as a result of losing the Greek-Turkish war (1919-1922), was estimated for most of the Peloponnese at from 0 - 25 people per thousand of indigenous population by Richard Clogg in his "A Concise History of Greece".

----------


## Pericles

That was 0-25 people per thousand of the then current population of the Peloponnese.

----------


## johen

> *Zeus = Indra = chinese Di(lord)
> *
> The petroglyph is exetremly important, b/c it is connected to mesoamerica and Hindu, china bronze, now ancient Greek.
> 
> 
> 
> *Fig 4. The warrior burials at grave circle B at Mycenae, with Avila type II spearheads.*
> *https://adnaera.com/2018/11/17/the-b...age-in-europe/*
> 
> ...


looks like the ancient Greek royal and scythian royal had the same philosophy of altai:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....glyph&p=555322



A Scythian warrior skeleton in the Cherkasy Oblast Regional Studies Museum.

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## ihype02

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--...o/corinth2.png
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-N...o/corinth3.png
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Q...o/corinth4.png



_Physical anthropology/taxonomy: Slavs/Avars of Peloponnese were mediterraean.


_I don't _necessarily_ believe this but it deserves some attention. With that being said I have changed my opinion I no longer believe today's Pelopennesians are majority Albanians and Slavs.

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## Yuxx

ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?

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## ihype02

> ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?


Because they are descended from ancient Balkanites without drasticially different (eg. proto-Slavic) input in them.
Plotting close has many different interpretations. A half British and half Japenesse will end plotting somewhere in central Asia. 
Another example is that Peloponessians are closer to Abruzzes than to Albanians or Sicilians (I am not sure but they usually score higher Abruzze) or that Albanians are closer to Thesslians than to Peloponessians.
Albanian population of Peloponesse in 19th century was 10% to 15%, in 15th century according to Ottoman defter it was 30% to 35% (majority was Greek even in 15th century).

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## Angela

I don't know why it seems so surprising, but standard analyses are clear: Albanians are a subset of Greek genetic variation, however it happened.

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## torzio

> ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?


because the Venetians placed many in the pelopennse with their families until 1500 when these stradiotti where not welcomed anymore after the battle of Fornovo

the stradiotti would take their wife and children wherever they went ...............I cannot recall stradiotti in north italy except for that battle or stopping the ottoman raids in eastern friuli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratioti

at battle of Fornovo the Albanians preferred to go for the french baggage train instead of capturing the french king as the venetian foot tried to do.......venetians saw them as unreliable and desided to cut ties with these albanians

these Stradiotti Albanians then served under the king of naples and much later the ( a ) french king

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## blevins13

> because the Venetians placed many in the pelopennse with their families until 1500 when these stradiotti where not welcomed anymore after the battle of Fornovo
> 
> the stradiotti would take their wife and children wherever they went ...............I cannot recall stradiotti in north italy except for that battle or stopping the ottoman raids in eastern friuli
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratioti
> 
> at battle of Fornovo the Albanians preferred to go for the french baggage train instead of capturing the french king as the venetian foot tried to do.......venetians saw them as unreliable and desided to cut ties with these albanians
> 
> these Stradiotti Albanians then served under the king of naples and much later the ( a ) french king


Ridiculous, so they were good for France but not for Venice. There were 200-300 Stradiotes and the Italian League had an army of 20,000 men while French were 10,000 ....this comes from the book let’s blame the emigrants. Read more and you will find the main reasons why this Battle was a draw.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbx2YO6kbSs




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## torzio

> Ridiculous, so they were good for France but not for Venice. There were 200-300 Stradiotes and the Italian League had an army of 20,000 men while French were 10,000 ....this comes from the book let’s blame the emigrants. Read more and you will find the main reasons why this Battle was a draw.
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbx2YO6kbSs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Really ...are you serious......you rely on u-tube to give you historical detail , OMG

if you do not want to read the 3 volume history books by Bembo which covers this period.

at least read

Campaign Series ( Osprey pubs ) Fornovo 1495 by David Nicolle (PhD )

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## Angela

It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.

Don't we know that yet?

There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.

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## blevins13

> Really ...are you serious......you rely on u-tube to give you historical detail , OMG
> 
> if you do not want to read the 3 volume history books by Bembo which covers this period.
> 
> at least read
> 
> Campaign Series ( Osprey pubs ) Fornovo 1495 by David Nicolle (PhD )


So by reading all this you came to the conclusion that the 200 stradiotes are to blame for the draw.... while the 20,000 Italians did what against the 10,000 French after the baggage affair..... please do elaborate extensively the valor of the Italian troops. 


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## blevins13

> It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.
> 
> Don't we know that yet?
> 
> There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.


The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.


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## blevins13

> It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.
> 
> Don't we know that yet?
> 
> There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.


You are right no reason to discuss Fornovo here....in case there is interest for that someone can open a new thread. I believe that there has been a huge migration of Albanians and vllahe toward Greece after Black Death, and there historic reference for that. Being highlanders they were less affected. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia


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## ihype02

> You are right no reason to discuss Fornovo here....in case there is interest for that someone can open a new thread. I believe that there has been a huge migration of Albanians and vllahe toward Greece after Black Death, and there historic reference for that. Being highlanders there were less affected. 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum





> The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Vlachs diverge genetically from each other. There are group of Vlachs with extremely high Slavic R1a.

----------


## torzio

> It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.
> 
> Don't we know that yet?
> 
> There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.


I *disagree* with you that there was no substantial movements of any people in the middle-ages or renaissance period in Europe or the world

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## blevins13

> Vlachs diverge genetically from each other. There are group of Vlachs with extremely high Slavic R1a.


Not any Vlachs but these ones

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia



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## Dianatomia

> The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.

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## blevins13

> Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.



If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
IMG_3246.jpg



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## Yetos

Lets not mix Aromani with Vlachs and with Romanians,

I said many times,
the researches show that both Armani and Romani are culturally connected, sometimes even genetically, 
BUT IS NOT A Nationality,

Aromani
1. mainly are local balcanic population, Greeks Thracians etc who adopted the Roman language and culture wich was the elites for centuries to milleniums,
the could be farm workers, public issue, soldiers etc etc, but mainly around local Roman villas (Villachion-> βιλαετιον -> Vlach)
2 secondary are Roman Legion descentants, that was given land at retirement, especially in areas with high Roman presence, and mainly above Diocletian distinguish order of Greek or Latin language of Legion?
that connect them with every piece of Roman empire where they had the legion,

Romanians
1. the same with above
2 the same with above
3 The tribe of Antes , Antes was a Slavic tribe who got assimilated by Romans and East Romans and become Romeo-Latino phones, (Vlachophones)

The genetical connection of Vlach is searched many times, and always shows different groups,
Triantaphyllides of Auth even proved that in a range of about 40 km distance, the Vlachs of 2 communities share very litlle common genetical,
Yet we know that Vlachs are a strong cultural group, no matter their origin,
and very preservative,

*The other view,*
the term Vlach might be Greek origin,
*According Homer* there is a word *Βληχη* in Makedonian and Doric* Βληχα Βλαχα* menaing the sound of sheeps 

That fits with the 3 first describes of Historians about the term Vlach,

1. Monastery of *Βλαχαιρνων* (Blachairnon not Vlachairnon) (pastoralis area outside the walls with many water fountains)
*2 Pastores Romanorum (Blachii not Vlachii) Gesta Hungarorum.
3* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kedrenos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skylitzes descibe them as seminomadic living in tents, and Guiders of Roman army and guardians of Romans


*Now the big difference*
Notice 
*Wales* in Greek is turn as *Ου -αλοι* so Wallachians will be turn to Ουλλαχοι not vlachoi

But if I take the term in Slavic term *Volxu* cognates with Germanic Walhaz *Walhiskaz* meaning Celt or Foreigner.

So the major difference is on how they call their language 
the usage of term Aromani Aramani Rami Ramani Armani Armanesti Armanestu Remi Aremani Armeni shows rather local origin
than the term Vlahisti or Blahisti.

many times in Greek a rude behavour man is called Βλαχος, Sometimes other tribes like sarakatsans or mountain breeders are call Vlaxoi.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VLACH-AROMANI IDENTITY, RATHER WITH GREEK TERM OF Βληχη and means either Sheppards-pastoralis people, either 'rusticus' rude.

So the Greek term of Bλαχος may have not same meaning with Slavic term Volxu.
Vlachs are identified to them shelves as Aromani Ramas etc 
identification as Vlach is rather new and imported possible from Romania Wallachs or Slavic Vloxu

----------


## Dianatomia

> If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
> IMG_3246.jpg
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs nomadic tribes settled.

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## Angela

The effect of the Greeks from Asia Minor, if people are talking about the early twentieth century people exchanges, is irrelevant in terms of this paper. 

The authors not only checked that each sample participant was descendant from four "local" grandparents, but they picked people old enough that those grandparents were all born in the late 1800s. 

Clearly, they were aware of the problem in terms of sampling.

----------


## ihype02

> _Belarusians_
> _Russians_
> _Polish_
> _Ukrainians_
> _French_
> _Italians_
> _Basque_
> _Andalusians_
> 
> ...


People from Deep Mani be modeled as only 25.3% ~ Sicilian-like? Doesn't make any sense?
Edit: It must be refering to another Italian population.

----------


## Parapolitikos

> ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?



Gheg Albanians
Arbereshe
Kosovars


E-V13
38%
15%
45.00%


E1b-xV13

13%


J2b
25%
3%
13.00%


J2a


2.50%


R1b-L51 xP311
12%
0%
24%


R1b-M269 xL51
4.20%
8%


I2a-M223
3.30%
10%
2.00%


I2a-xM26,M223

10%


R1a-M17
2.50%
10%
3.00%


I1-M253
3.30%
5.30%
3.00%









Most Albanians Doubt it.
Kosovars and north Albanians certainly.
Have less East European Admixture like Sicilians and Peloponnesians.

----------


## blevins13

> Gheg Albanians
> Arbereshe
> Kosovars
> 
> 
> E-V13
> 38%
> 15%
> 45.00%
> ...


I am from south Albania and I score high....?


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## Parapolitikos

> Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs 
> nomadic tribes settled.


You are Absolutely right.
Which make all those maps and charts circulating about ''Northern Greece'' and ''Northern Greeks'' *false*. I dont know what's even the point of drawing them as they *dont reflect the reality*. *Not just the present genetic reality*, obviously as it excludes all the refuges and all the mixed refuge-local people from the genetic profile of the region(more than 90% of the population), but also they dont reflect* the past demographic profile* of the region, the one before 1920. You cant* exclude half the historic population of a region*, like the Muslim Greeks, and expect to have realistic results. Most of those (autosomal)researches that amateur geneticists use to draw far reaching conclusions, also have many other methodological mistakes.To the researchers defense, these studies *weren't design to reconstruct historical populations* but for other purposes. But once you do use them in an attempt to reconstruct historical populations, you ll stumble on many unsolvable problems, like NOT taking into account* the degree of mixing of locals with refugees*. In some regions it is 100% in others(mountainous regions) it is zero. 1920 was 5 generations ago. Since you ll need non ''contaminated'' DNA samples to reconstruct the historical population, you ll need old persons , old enough to have 4 grandfathers from the region before 1920. N*on mixed persons*.
In some regions *the proportion* of non-mixed 80(-/+) year olds is 100% of the 80 year olds, in others is 10% and others have all the ranges in between. Since most of these researches *treat Macedonia as one unit*, what you ll get is disproportional representation of some areas that were unefected from both the population exchanges and the resettlements of refugees..
Lets say for example , it is possible(and very likely) that you ll have as many ''80 years old with 4 grandparents from the pre-1920 region '' in the border communities which represent 3-4% of the population as in the rest of Macedonia combined where half a million refugees mixed to high degrees with half a million locals for 100 years. 80 year olds with 4 grandparents from pre 1920 Macedonia, originating from the border regions, dont necessarily live in the border regions nowadays. Since then they have scattered all over Macedonia as internal economic immigrants. You ll need to control for that too, probably at the level of the village.
In order to reconstruct the historical population of Macedonia you will need thousands of samples, that reflect the geographic diversity and the regional population density of pre-1920 Macedonia.You would also need to correct for historical events of the 20thst century(famines,genocides,population exchanges etc etc)

Density and Impact of Refugees settlements.
f fgfev.jpg

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## Angela

The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.

If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.

----------


## Ack

Very interesting


I have always thought of ancient / classical Greeks as similar to the Sardinian people with a little more steppe ancestry. The relative proximity between modern Peloponnese and modern Sicily may indicate a more 'central' or 'southeast' Mediterranean position for ancient Greeks, but I am not sure to say. But certainly the ancient Greeks are more towards what is now southern Europe than north. I would like the study to also include comparison with more populations in Italy - especially Sardinia - such as the southern Balkans


Despite the Slavic influences and the eastern Mediterranean - which existed, but was moderate - modern Greeks probably remain close to the ancient Greeks and preserve the language - which naturally changes with time

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## blevins13

> The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.
> 
> If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.


Angela what Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer In 1836 saw in Peloponnese was people speaking Albanian....now how this study proves continuity....what is the evidence that should convince us. In 23 and me I get Peloponnese as highly likely match showing strong connection ....and many Albanian get that.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_...yer/index.html

Half trues are no trues....

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## Angela

OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter. 

I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves. 

There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW. 

I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.

----------


## blevins13

> OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter. 
> 
> I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves. 
> 
> There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.
> 
> You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW. 
> 
> I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.


Maybe Albanians Too?!!!! 
Yes Angela, you are right I don’t understand,
I do not get anything from the Sicily or Calabria in 23 and Me, even that emigration was more recent compared to Peloponnese.

So why many Albanians get that due to certain enclaves....? In that case they should get the same thing from Sicily and Calabria right?


Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer traveller, journalist, politician and historian for Albanians he described what he saw.


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## Angela

Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.

The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.

I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.

As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like. 

Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.

----------


## matadworf

> OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter. 
> 
> I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves. 
> 
> There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.
> 
> You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW. 
> 
> I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.


My experience as an observer of various models, calculators, etc. is that modern Peloponnesians vary from the more NW shifted (close to Albania, West Greek Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Italy) to more Southern shifted in the case of Tsakonians, Maniots who are much closer to Abruzzo, East Sicily, etc.

----------


## ihype02

I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
https://media.springernature.com/ful..._Fig1_HTML.jpg


Shouldn't they be closer to each other?

----------


## Mals

> OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter. 
> 
> I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves. 
> 
> There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.
> 
> You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW. 
> 
> I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.


It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.

The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.

----------


## ihype02

> It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.
> 
> The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.


I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia. 
Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.

----------


## Parapolitikos

Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece. 
He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles. 
What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.

----------


## bigsnake49

Fallmeyer was not a scientist and he was not a statistician and neither was he a historian. Even Herodotus has been doubted and he did not have an agenda.

----------


## Parapolitikos

> I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia. 
> Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.


Slavs reached the Outskirts of Macedonia, few decades after they crossed the Danube.
The wars against the slavs started, and the end of their free roaming ended soon afterwards.Slavs from there after remained in the Balkan interior. After the initial push back and securing the borders, what ever Slavs managed to snick into the Greek space, they were dealt with forced relocation in deep Anatolia.

----------


## matadworf

> Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece. 
> He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles. 
> What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.


No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

K 13
1
Greek_Thessaly
3.63

2
Italian_Abruzzo
5.98

3
Central_Greek
6.99






MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
K 23
1
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
2.05

2
Greek_Thessaly ( )
2.07

3
Albanian_Tirana ( )
2.94



G 25
0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
0.02524797 Albanian
0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02822096 Italian_Marche
0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03157852 Italian_Molise
0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany

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## matadworf

> No Peloponnese in this breakdown:
> 
> K 13
> 1
> Greek_Thessaly
> 3.63
> 
> 2
> Italian_Abruzzo
> ...


The G25 Peloponnesian sample is pretty South shifted compared to the Gedmatch Peloponnesian samples.

----------


## blevins13

> Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.
> 
> The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.
> 
> I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.
> 
> As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like. 
> 
> Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.


After we have seen this:

IMG_3951.jpg


You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one. 
The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.

I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.



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## Parapolitikos

> After we have seen this:
> 
> Attachment 11897
> 
> 
> You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one. 
> The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.
> 
> I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.
> ...


Cause:
a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
Why would you match with them specifically?


b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.

N.Atlantic
baltic
West Med
west asian
East Med
Red Sea
South Asian
East Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
Northeast African
Sub-Saharan

Sicily
17.68
6.57
21.64
15.48
29.89
5.54
0.51
0.34
0.31
0.2
0.34
0.72
0.78

Greek_Peloponnese
18.56
14.36
21.06
15.04
24.24
5.05
0
0.57
0.29
0.28
0.17
0
0.32

Albanian
21.07
17.56
23.81
11.15
23.81
1.62
0.25
0.07
0.15
0.13
0.17
0
0



c) (guessing here) 23 and Me matches are based on number of samples you match in the 200 years ''relatives''

What it should perplex you more and most Albanians that taken the test who showed similar results, isn't why you match with Peloponnese (A) , but why you dont match better with the Albanian regions (B) .
ecvefvcefr.jpg
If we take the maps on face value in accordance to your line of thinking, then the movement of population cannot be from Albania to Greece, but from Greece to the Albania region you live carrying Peloponesian DNA to Albania and that movement occurred in the last 200 years.

How else could you explain them?

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## Parapolitikos

> I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
> https://media.springernature.com/ful..._Fig1_HTML.jpg
> 
> 
> Shouldn't they be closer to each other?


The depiction you should be looking is this.
What ever Diversity seems to be with in the group.
sdx.jpg

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## Parapolitikos

> No Peloponnese in this breakdown:
> 
> K 13
> 1
> Greek_Thessaly
> 3.63
> 
> 2
> Italian_Abruzzo
> ...


That was directed to the Albanian guy, i dont know my reply was attached elsewhere, but to comment on your post. 
Some K13 versions and some calculators in general have neither Peloponnese or South Albania as populations.
I was suggesting he compare his Eurogenes K13 results manually (or visually if you prefer).
The ''glitch'' of 23&Me could be caused by many different factors. You could only know decisively once you know exactly what they mean by ''relatives in the last 200 years'' and how they match them. One possible explanation is that it has to do with the volume of samples that match yours admixturewise per region. Peloponese being a bigger and more populous (and in better economic shape) than the regions of Albania, could have much more matching samples of the specific admixture combination than any of the dozen or so regions of Albania of 23&me. That the tested Albanians dont seem to have as many ''relatives in the last 200 years'' from the Albanian regions, seems to suggest that too. But who knows.

----------


## blevins13

> Cause:
> a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
> Why would you match with them specifically?
> 
> 
> b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
> the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.
> 
> N.Atlantic
> ...


I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.

But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources. 
These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.

If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.



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## Parapolitikos

> I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.
> 
> But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources. 
> These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.
> 
> If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
r4r4er.jpg
Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.

----------


## blevins13

> No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
> The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
> r4r4er.jpg
> Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.
> 
> What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
> For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.


So you are saying that numerous Muslim Albanians ( Turk-Alvani), left Peloponnesus around 1820 and were settled in Hiterland of Shkodra and Vlora....provide some reference for that.....I consider this scenario remote and less influential than the movement of Albanian highlanders after Black Death to Peloponnesus that is referenced from different historians. Considering the devastation of Black Death in Greek urban areas the Albanian Pastorals were less affected and this seems more probable.


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## Johane Derite

There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.

Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.

It is clear here what is happening. 

It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture. 

This is irresponsible from 23andme.

----------


## ihype02

> There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.
> Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.
> It is clear here what is happening. 
> It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture. 
> This is irresponsible from 23andme.


Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?

When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.

----------


## ihype02

> A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?
> 
> When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.


Some Albanians did exchange their language with modern Greek during the centuries however some Albanians did leave Peloponnese for South Italy which reduced their number in Peloponnese, to what extend is another question. The population of Peloponnese was 200,000 in 17th century which indicates that most Arvanites stayed.

Albanians in Samos adopted the Greek language in late 18th century. Tsakonians did also adopt modern Greek too which reduced the number of Tsakonian speakers by the 19th century, this fact however seems reasonable for many but the Albanian version not.

----------


## matadworf

I agree. I believe a portion of the Arvanite or Greek Albanian population fully assimilated and really never considered themselves distinct. I do believe based on recent 23 and Me results as well as the G 25 calculator that I’m somewhere in the vicinity of 25% Albanian.

----------


## Parapolitikos

> Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.



Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
4rf4ef4r.jpg

----------


## ihype02

> Here is a real census from the 19th century and not Albanian hot air.
> It is around 3% of the Early (and small) Greek state, and around 4% in Peloponnese. Their Numbers will remain the same for the 30-40 years, when the settlement of Refugees and mass Education would favorite Greek.
> r42fr44.jpg


Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable? 

This doesn't look 3% to me.

----------


## Parapolitikos

> Do you seriously think that Greek census is reliable? 
> 
> This doesn't look 3% to me.


That's just dots on the map some person drew 150 years later, for god knows why.
Arvanites were recorded in census going back 150 years. ALL other estimations are based on the TOTAL population of the areas they lived. Which i call wishful thinking

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## blevins13

This paper is superficial, no depth, no evidence. This concludes my argument here.


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## matadworf

Wow guess that map confirms the Albanian connection.My maternal grandfather was from Aetos Messinia and his father was the mayor in the late 1800’s. No family member ever mentioned this to me.

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## Hawk

Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?

Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.

----------


## matadworf

> Any data on this, like Y-DNA percentages of Tsakonians and Maniots?
> 
> Autosomally i have heard Tsakonians and Maniots to be very Southern European, not influenced by Slavic migration at all.


Yes from all accounts and results I’ve seen that’s true. Deep Mani was essentially impenetrable to post 6th C Slav incursion and the Slavs (Melengi) were situated in the more accessible regions of Laconia. The Eastern Tsakonians in the Parnon Mountains of (now) Arcadia were also pretty isolated. The Tsakonian and Maniot results seem to be on par with Southern Italians/Eastern Sicilians so yes much more Southern Med Europe than other mainland Greeks which may pull either NW or NE.

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## peloponnesian

Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?

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## Ralphie Boy

> Haven't read all the posts here but I find it problematic the paper didn't attempt any comparisons with the neighbouring Slavophone populations: North Macedonians and Bulgarians. Was there any follow-up?


We may be able to make inferences from a few other studies, including one with some of the same authors as this study (Neolithic maritime colonization of Europe). In the maritime study Peloponnesians seem close to “East Rumelia” (south Bulgaria location) but more distant from Serbians (also the case in a Crete study). 

Hopefully someday we will get south Balkan genetic results from after the Mycenaeans and before the Slavic invasions. At least two studies indicate modern south Balkans populations have significant/substantial descent from Anatolian Neolithic farmers. We really don’t know what we’ll find but I’d be surprised if the missing samples deviate very much from the Neolithic farmers.

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## ihype02

The Maniots used in this study *strongly* overlap with Abruzzes with one being really close to Sicilians and Myceneans. But Abruzzes are really close to Sicilians too.

----------


## Henrique

No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.

Distance to:	GRC_Mycenaean ( Ancient ) 
0.04621749	Italian_Calabria
0.04809301	Italian_Campania
0.04995337	Italian_Apulia
0.04999662	Italian_Basilicata
0.05085840	Sicilian_East
0.05100394	Greek_Kos
0.05364142	Italian_Jew
0.05422889	Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403	Italian_Molise
0.05550306	Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05562459	Greek_Crete
0.05592334	Greek_Izmir
0.05626353	Maltese
0.05656291	Italian_Lazio
0.05678297	Romaniote_Jew
0.05702418	Greek_Peloponnese
0.05864657	Sicilian_West
0.05865498	Italian_Umbria
0.05947326	Sephardic_Jew
0.06132962	Italian_Marche
0.06302862	Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06323593	Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06498286	Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.06505373	Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06516680	Cypriot
0.06542563	French_Corsica
0.06565813	Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06637160	Italian_Tuscany
0.07008550	Greek_Central_Anatolia

Distance to:	GRC_Peloponnese_N ( ancient ) 
0.07906802	Sardinian
0.10066285	Italian_Jew
0.10100808	Italian_Campania
0.10105324	Italian_Calabria
0.10258457	Italian_Apulia
0.10324413	Romaniote_Jew
0.10340779	Sicilian_East
0.10353597	Italian_Basilicata
0.10391238	Greek_Kos
0.10437045	Italian_Lazio
0.10610497	Ashkenazi_Germany
0.10633783	Sephardic_Jew

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
> The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
> r4r4er.jpg
> Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.
> 
> What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
> For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.


Haha hilarious stuff, north albania is the least mixed place in all of Europe.

If you want to talk about mixed go look at the state of Greek y dna, as far as I can tell Greece suffered a lot from ottoman era genetically. I would also say some of the albanian & especially slavic y dna in greece is from ottoman deployment because it simply has too much to be logical

There is no such thing as turkoalbanian, Albanians spread their y dna in Turkey (because they were taken there) not the other way round, most albanians are too racist to mix with others

Autosomal dna means nothing because it comes from women too and Muslim women from middle east were shared around in ottoman era, only thing you need to be concerned with is y dna because that is what makes a country/race

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## Angela

^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.

Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights. 

I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads. 

Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.

Last warning.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> ^^Rarely have I heard such nonsense. It's also nonsense which is totally off topic. This is not a thread for prolonged analysis of Albanian genetics.
> 
> Now, this is too important a thread to close, so some of you are going to be silenced if you don't stop posting a-scientific drivel and take your disputes to the Balkan thread dedicated to your fraternal fights. 
> 
> I am also considering just deleting all these Albanian genetics posts, so if you want to preserve them, do it now, and post on the appropriate threads. 
> 
> Posts with nonsense about identity being tied only to the y chromosome will be among the first to go.
> 
> Last warning.


I apologise but you cant allow people to make false claims when we have dna tests now. Words like "turkoalbanian" shouldn't be allowed especially when aimed at North albanians - it is scientifically proven false BS, utterly ridiculous 

A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others - 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPbqdEna2Ww

Genetics can tell us more about our past than most other things can as most history was written from different points of view and some people did not care for writing so history is skewed, not to mention there was pillaging, thieves etc. Y dna is relevant because it was mostly men who moved around and decided how things should be instead of women. But yes, in modern age it is different

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## Angela

Parapolitikos: one more stupid t-rolling comment from you against Albanians and you're going to go to sleep for a long time.

Any more off topic comments and I'll temporarily close the thread and remove as many as I have the patience to do. 

I also don't want to see any more sexist b.s. that the only thing that matters is the y chromosome for identity.

Am I clear?

Now don't ruin today for those of us who celebrate it. Have some consideration and civility.

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## Ralphie Boy

The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
4AD9E55C-1C23-4BB8-A37B-BD331FF08D6C.jpg

----------


## peloponnesian

> No modern population has ancestry identical to the ancient Greeks, but for both ancient Peloponnesians and Mycenaeans the closest appear to be southern Italians and European Jews. I don't know if the greater proximity is due to historical facts like Magna Grecia or convergence of ancestry by other factors. I believe that there is ancient Greek ancestry in southern Italy.


I think this is mostly due to with their ancestral components' percentages being similar after PCA analysis. It doesn't necessarily mean recent common heritage. Lots of Greeks and Italians plot close to Ashkenazi Jews but score 0% Ashkenazi on 23andMe and MyHeritage (which have a lot of Ashkenazis in their databases). We do share neolithic ancestry for sure, but ethnic groupings like Jews, Romans, etc came later.

----------


## peloponnesian

> A lot of greeks today look like this guy and try to ignore their history and the history of others -


I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.


I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army" 

Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> I don't care about nationalist bs but what's so strange about the Greek dude in the YouTube video you posted? He looks like a typical Mediterranean who has grown a big beard.


I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
321ADFA9-C2B2-40B3-8AC1-04BB540290EA.jpg

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## ihype02

> The Tsakonians appear to be interesting. They are separated from the Peloponnesian cluster in the PC map, in which Deep Mani occupies the southern end. It is said or theorized somewhere that Tsakonians came to Arcadia from east Laconia, escaping some invasion and bringing their Doric dialect with them. But Deep Mani, also in Laconia and historically considered to be different than the rest of the Peloponnese (Mani was another refuge for Greeks escaping invasions), is quite different than Tsakonians. So maybe Tsakonians are indigenous in east Arcadia and a different “tribe” of Greek speakers than the Deep Mani ancestors?
> 4AD9E55C-1C23-4BB8-A37B-BD331FF08D6C.jpg


PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally all the time. In amatuer calculators Tsakonians are similar to Maniotes.
All old Greek tribes were strongly related to each other IMO. Unless they were mixed with something else like Anatolians.
Sicilians, in that PCA overlap with Taygetos.
In the Cretan study, Maniotes and Tsakonians fill the gap by overlapping with Abruzzes, Apulians (I suspect even though they are missing) and northernmost Sicilians.

----------


## matadworf

> I agree, he has a look that is seen among Greeks. Most Greeks are not very close to Middle Easterners as far as I have seen, but there is a little overlap between the Aegean Turkish coast and Peloponnese, in this study. The authors argue that Asia Minor people were not brought in to replace Greeks who might have disappeared by the time the Slavs settled in the Peloponnese.
> 321ADFA9-C2B2-40B3-8AC1-04BB540290EA.jpg




The only Greek populations close to Middle Easterners are those in Anatolia and Caucasus regions. It's Greek as a cultural identity although there is evidence that those same populations have shared Greek genetic ties.Eastern Aegean Islanders can show up with a Levantine (Druze for instance)population in their top 20, however, it's pretty remote. Cypriots vary as well some shifting towards the Levant others toward the Dodacanese Islands.

----------


## matadworf

> I didn't say there is anything wrong with it but you have to say he doesn't look "european", we need to understand from you greeks what did the ancient greeks look like because you can't seem to decide. For me, that guy looks typical middle eastern and you will find a lot similar in turkey because the history of the ottoman is a continuation of the islamic caliphates before it. They spoke arabic and persian as did most of the middle east by that point so migration from middle east would have been quite common, especially in terms of joining their "army" 
> Which would you say are the true original Greek y dna that have carried into today?
> Don't forget greeks and persians share a history of j2a so with that you have to be careful when deciding which sub clades in greeks today are carried from ancient greeks and which are from possible ottoman settlement/deployment


First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.

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## bigsnake49

> First of all I'm not a big fan of phenotypic analysis because it's so subjective and can be absurd at times but physiognomy within the Greek population varies drastically. "Greek" is and has always been a cultural identity first so it's difficult to compare the genetic identity of someone from Greek Cappadocia with someone from say Greek Epirus (extreme distance).Likewise when were talking phenotypes the same could be said about "typical regional" looks. Albanians are obviously more homogeneous because there wasn't ever any sort of Albanian cultural expansion.As far as 'looking Euro" that's a pretty absurd notion.


It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> It is very true. I have blond/blue eyed relatives on both sides of my family (my father, sister) and blond/ginger hair on my mother's side. But my mother, my other sister and I have dark hair/dark eyes and look Med. There are Cretans that have dark hair and blue eyes. Pontian Greeks tend to be have darker hair and eyes.


Which y dna have you found in your family so far?

Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now

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## matadworf

> Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
> Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now


Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.

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## bigsnake49

> Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
> Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now


R1b-M269. I think that the ancient Greek invaders might have been a bit more light haired than the local Pelasgians but unless we get some DNA samples analyzed we might never know. Greece and the Eastern Balkans were invaded by a lot of different people including the Celts, Romans, Ostrogoths, Alans, Avars, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc. So there might a bit of a mixture. Then there were the Praetorian guards that were rewarded with land for faithful service.

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## Jovialis

> Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. *We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.*


How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.

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## Jovialis

> Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
> Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because *according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people*? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now


Yes, the academics working on the Mycenean paper from 2017 have concluded that. I think most people have already assumed that as well.

You have yet to see evidence? Have you missed the paper?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

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## Jovialis

> Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
> Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now


I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.

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## Jovialis

> I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.


FWIW, most Greeks have shifted relatively less than Bulgarians, from their _original_ position on the PCA.

----------


## matadworf

> How do you know that isn't more recent admixture, possibly Slavic? Which I think it a lot more probable, than suggesting that Neolithic people, especially from Greece, would have light features. Maybe EEF in the west of Europe with more WHG, may have had some blue eyes. But I doubt the Eastern European farmer could have had it commonly.


Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?

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## Jovialis

> Never said that Neolithics in Greece had light hair, light eyes I realize the consensus is that they were dark haired/dark eyed but do we really know what they looked like? it's all based on simulation. Based on those same simulations WHG were actually darker (in terms of skin tone) than Early Farmers right?


Yes, WHGs did have dark skin according to what they found with Cheddar man.

----------


## Hawk

> I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.


I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.

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## DuPidh

> I think the Illyrians from Albania will be similar to Maniots/Tsakonians probably, or Central-Southern Italians, autosomally i mean.


illyrians came from central Europe, Hungary-Romania area. Why should they be generically close to Peloponnesus. It makes more sense they were generically close to Romanians. I mean Bronx age Illyrians. As time went by they mixed as everyone did.

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## bigsnake49

> Yes, the academics working on the Mycenean paper from 2017 have concluded that. I think most people have already assumed that as well.
> 
> You have yet to see evidence? Have you missed the paper?
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310


Isn't that based on just 4 samples?

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## Jovialis

> Isn't that based on just 4 samples?


So what, the discovery of Denisovan, an entire branch of humanity, was based on a single tooth.

Do you know of any other elite burials from the Mycenaean period?

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## Jovialis

FYI, the "Thracian" aka the Bulgarian_IA sample, we have is quite similar to that of the Mycenaeans as well.

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## Jovialis

Here it is from another angle, a few of the Mycenaeans are pulled upwards on the Z-axis towards CHG/IN sources, coinciding with the study.



I5769 is the "Thracian"

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## bigsnake49

> So what, the discovery of Denisovan, an entire branch of humanity, was based on a single tooth.
> 
> Do you know of any other elite burials from the Mycenaean period?


I am just saying that phenotypically you cannot make pronouncements about a whole race unless you have a few more samples. It's like me telling people that the men in my family is typically short based on my father's 5'5" stature when my grandfather was 6'1", I am 6'1" and my son is 6'4". Or typically blonde based on my father's blonde blue eyes when I am dark haired my mother was dark haired. I like to have a few more data points and talk in statistical terms.

The other problem we have is that we only have "elite" Mycenean DNA. How representative is the elite of the underlying race. Are they just the strongest/tallest warriors but other than that they are genetically like the ruled? How numerous were the Greeks vis a vis the locals? Did the elite Greeks/Myceneans mix with the locals (whether elite or common locals)? Did the common Greeks mix with the common locals. So many questions, so few samples. We need a lot more samples from before the Greeks came and also from after they came.

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## Jovialis

> I am just saying that phenotypically you cannot make pronouncements about a whole race unless you have a few more samples. It's like me telling people that the men in my family is typically short based on my father's 5'5" stature when my grandfather was 6'1", I am 6'1" and my son is 6'4". Or typically blonde based on my father's blonde blue eyes when I am dark haired my mother was dark haired. I like to have a few more data points and talk in statistical terms.
> The other problem we have is that we only have "elite" Mycenean DNA. How representative is the elite of the underlying race. Are they just the strongest/tallest warriors but other than that they are genetically like the ruled? How numerous were the Greeks vis a vis the locals? Did the elite Greeks/Myceneans mix with the locals (whether elite or common locals)? Did the common Greeks mix with the common locals. So many questions, so few samples. We need a lot more samples from before the Greeks came and also from after they came.


I see, I feel the same way in regards to phenotype. My family has some atypical looking people as well. My uncle is 6"3, I'm 6"2, my grandfather was over 6 feet. I think height has a lot to do with diet, as well as environmental conditions. But genetics certainly plays a role. My grandfather said he wanted to marry my grandmother because she was the tallest woman he had seen in their village. That's a case of sexual selection at play. I think it is possible that some of the Myceneans could have been phenotypically lighter, while still being at their genetic proximity. There were light eyed people who had lived in the copper age Levant. They had a lot of CHG/IN-like & Anatolian_N DNA coming in at that time.

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## ihype02

> I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.


I don't think that original ancestors of Albanians were exactly like Bulgarian Iron Age, I think more like the Thracian + some northern Illyrian-like or northern Italian-like. Greeks have received more Slavic admixture than Albanians (higher Slavic Y-DNA) which brought them more north and closer to us. 
I don't view Slavic admixture as something negative at all though.

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## Jovialis

^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.

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## bigsnake49

> I see, I feel the same way in regards to phenotype. My family has some atypical looking people as well. My uncle is 6"3, I'm 6"2, my grandfather was over 6 feet. I think height has a lot to do with diet, as well as environmental conditions. But genetics certainly plays a role. My grandfather said he wanted to marry my grandmother because she was the tallest woman he had seen in their village. That's a case of sexual selection at play. I think it is possible that some of the Myceneans could have been phenotypically lighter, while still being at their genetic proximity. There were light eyed people who had lived in the copper age Levant. They had a lot of CHG/IN-like & Anatolian_N DNA coming in at that time.


My mother was 5'6" which was tall for Greeks of her generation but I don't think my father selected her for her stature. Actually all the eligible women in my town were already married after he returned from fighting in the Greek civil war and she was one of the very few left in a neighboring town.  :Grin:

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## Jovialis

> My mother was 5'6" which was tall for Greeks of her generation but I don't think my father selected her for her stature. Actually all the eligible women in my town were already married after he returned from fighting in the Greek civil war and she was one of the very few left in a neighboring town.


My other grandfather had a fiancé (idk if they were engaged actually) during the time he served in World War II. However, he left her some short time after the war, and met my grandmother. I guess he figured after surviving armed conflict, he is not going to settle for someone that isn't going to make him happy for the rest of his life. At any rate both my grandmother, and grandfather on my dad's side were not that tall.

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## Jovialis

> I used to share your views! And in general is true! If you see Mexicans or Asians when they come to America is hard to believe there are such a small stature creatures. But I changed the view once I settled in USA. I saw Albanian people born and raised in USA that were even smaller in stature than Albanians of Albania(south). They had better skin, but not height. So it could be some instructions on their genes.


This crass and unartfully crafted post is telling me that you are a t-roll.

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## Hawk

> This crass and unartfully crafted post is telling me that you are a t-roll.


Well, his username is quite sexist/trollish btw. It means: "I want vagina" in Albanian. Though i doubt this guy is even Albanian to begin with.

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## Jovialis

> Well, his username is quite sexist/trollish btw. It means: "I want vagina" in Albanian. Though i doubt this guy is even Albanian to begin with.


Thanks for the heads-up, he has been banned.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> Im G2A paternally. My G2A line has been in Greece prior to Byzantines (I've traced my family history in the Peloponnese) and we're in an isolated mountainous region of mainland Greece. G2A is linked to Neolithic populations and paleo-balkanic pre-Slavs. We have a number of ginger haired and/or blonds in our family so the presupposition that Neolithics were dark haired/dark eyed may not be accurate.


G2a is quite relevant in middle/south italy too so it could be either Greek or Roman. What subclade did you get?

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## TaktikatEMalet

> R1b-M269. I think that the ancient Greek invaders might have been a bit more light haired than the local Pelasgians but unless we get some DNA samples analyzed we might never know. Greece and the Eastern Balkans were invaded by a lot of different people including the Celts, Romans, Ostrogoths, Alans, Avars, Slavs, Bulgarians, etc. So there might a bit of a mixture. Then there were the Praetorian guards that were rewarded with land for faithful service.


Which subclade of R1b did you get? I don't know much about pelasgians but from what I have been told here ancient greeks were dark tonned and mostly carried j2a (and likely g2)

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## TaktikatEMalet

> I also think the same could be said for the ancestors of Albanians. I think like the Mycenaeans, and the Bulgarian Iron Age sample, the ancestors of Albanians were about as south as Sicilians and to the "west" of them genetically. That seems to be the norm in this area of the world leading up to Late Antiquity. They became more North-Eastern shifted by Slavic and Avar invasions. Albanians are phenotypically diverse, some of them look light, some of them look dark.


If you look at St Nicholas (a Greek) born in 270AD 
https://youtu.be/KZ5smDu99Aw

He is now believed to have been very dark tonned and goes in line with what experts on here are saying about ancient greeks being quite dark

If you look at old paintings of south Slavs they weren't too light tonned, could be that most light tonned south Slavs today have german or proto central/balkan european ancestry. As you know almost half of their y dna isn't from Slavic invasion it's from the people who lived there before them (and a bit from after), mtdna will be even higher. Truly we will never know what the original south slavs looked like it is easy to guess they were light tonned but with their dna being so mixed now it's difficult to say - we have to look at their origins for some history there

If you look kosova vs greece football team you see that about half the greeks are very dark tonned whereas kosova team maybe 1 out of 23, I would assume north albanians mostly have lighter features than south albanians from what I have seen but correct me if I'm wrong - could be that south Albanians visit the beach more. South Albanians have more Greek and south Slavic y dna but I would say some of their darker features are likely from Greek (or maybe Roman) input instead of south Slavs

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## Constantine

> ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?


It's not just Albanians. I notice on 23andMe other Balkan nationalities (even Romanians) scoring Peloponnese as well. My first reaction is that the Peloponnesian samples are acting as a proxy for native Balkan ancestry in the rest of the Balkans, or something along those lines, but who knows....

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## cybernautic

> Which y dna have you found in your family so far?
> Greeks have plenty of Slavic and Albanian y dna and some Ostrogothic which may bring lighter features because according to most people on here original Greeks were mostly darker j2a people? I have yet to see enough evidence that ancient greeks were dark tonned people but I will take the experts word on it for now


Greeks don't have "plenty" of Slavic dna about Albanian y dna its disputable how much they have.

Mainland Greeks plot fairly close to Albanians but does that mean they are descended from Albanians?

And scientifically its incorrect to talk about Albanian or Slavic dna anyway

You rather talk about the dna of specified populations like the dna of Albanian,the dna of Slavs,the dna of Ancient Illyrians
,of Ancient Anatolians ect

Most haplogroups were formed and existed at a time before any of todays ethno linguistical groups such as Slavs,Albanians existed!

Talking about Greek dna would be more justified than Albanian or Slavic since Greeks as an ethno linguistical entity are much older
than these two and their presence is much better documented but it would be still wrong from a scientific point of view

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## cybernautic

> Which subclade of R1b did you get? I don't know much about pelasgians but from what I have been told here ancient greeks were dark tonned and mostly carried j2a (and likely g2)


They were certainly darker than Northern Europeans
but lighter than Egyptians

If you mind reading Ancient Greek authors what they say about their own compared to foreigners
its pretty clear there is not even need for discussion or overanalyzing PCA's common sense dictates
that Ancient people looked more or less like how they described themselves.

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## bigsnake49

> They were certainly darker than Northern Europeans
> but lighter than Egyptians
> 
> *If you mind reading Ancient Greek authors what they say about their own compared to foreigners
> its pretty clear there is not even need for discussion or overanalyzing PCA's common sense dictates
> that Ancient people looked more or less like how they described themselves*.


Good advice @cybernautic

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## Ralphie Boy

> I don't think that original ancestors of Albanians were exactly like Bulgarian Iron Age, I think more like the Thracian + some northern Illyrian-like or northern Italian-like. Greeks have received more Slavic admixture than Albanians (higher Slavic Y-DNA) which brought them more north and closer to us. 
> I don't view Slavic admixture as something negative at all though.


I don’t view it as negative either. There would be no modern Greece if not for many who were descended from Slavs, and Arvanites, who fought for Greece’s freedom against the Ottomans. I read that Arvanite women carried arms. These were some tough people.

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## cybernautic

> This paper is superficial, no depth, no evidence. This concludes my argument here.


Such are most of the arguments you brought here, most of all this one here^

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## blevins13

> I don’t view it as negative either. There would be no modern Greece if not for many who were descended from Slavs, and Arvanites, who fought for Greece’s freedom against the Ottomans. I read that Arvanite women carried arms. These were some tough people.


Sure it will be Greek Freedom, let not overweight the internal element, I believe the external one was decisive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morea_expedition


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## blevins13

> Such are most of the arguments you brought here, most of all this one here^


Which one? It has be quite a while from the last time I posted here, since there hasn’t been any new evidence to argue over.


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## cybernautic

> @Angela
> Obviously every Greek settlement in Magna Graecia had an impact, but could not be held responsible for the genetic similarities between Greece and Italy. Like u said urself, the connection reaches back into the Neolithic and even farther, and we see a similar trend of population movements going on for centuries. It seems to be always the case that people from northern Balkans move south and from there to Italy.


It doesn't necessarily, the earliest migrations in Balkans might have rather been from South upwards to the North.

And the people who colonized Italy where Greeks not North Balkanians




> Even the ancient Greek and Roman mythology always claimed that several tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor, then we have the famous colonies of Magna Graecia, then we have the expulsion of Greeks by the Byzantine Empire forming the Griko minority, then the Turks influenced the same trend, followed even by the Albanians known as Arbereshe who had also settled in Greece for 3-4 centuries already, and so on.


If tribes descended from Greece or Asia Minor they weren't from North Balkans
Neither Greece nor Asia Minor is in North Balkans

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## blevins13

> ^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.


I don’t see Slavic migration as negative either, after all they, goths, and Avars saved Albanian from complete romanization breaking the dominance of Roman rule in the Balkan.

But to think otherwise is completely acceptable depending on the historical prospective.


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## cybernautic

> ^^Nor should anyone. To think otherwise is completely unacceptable. There is indeed some Slavic admixture into the Balkans.


The amount of Slavic admixture though grows exponentially in some peoples imagination compared
to what it is in reality

At least when it comes to Greece

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## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?


You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.

----------


## ihype02

> You are painfully wrong. For starters. In the pelloponese, the total population of Turks (Muslims) was 42.750 before the revolution, not 100.000. After the revolution, the total Turkish Population of Greece was 0. This can be found in various sources. Such as the correspondence of the Greek leader Kapodistrias. The Arvanites of mainlanf peloponnese were at the time, according an extremely inaccurate estimate of Mr Philpson an outstanding 50.000 people in a population of 750.000 in the 1840s. This study was overblown, famously including the ten thousand Arvanites of Laconia. Which are even reosrested on maps! The only problem being. That according to mr Korilos, and the local Greeks, the only Arvanite village of the region had 706 people. No vlach settlement existed in the peloponnese. Only in Pindus. Finally. Modern Gedmatch results of the Greeks of Attica (a region etnirely inhabited by Arvanites) show the closest population to be Eastern Sicily. Peloponnese and Attica are the most distant Greek regions of Greece to albania. Genitally. This is a prove of Kostas Biris's theory, Who wrote in his famous and awarded book called "The Arvanites". That Modern Greek Arvanites, are Albanised local Hellines with some small and distant Arvanite heritage. Of you want to know more on this subject, I could kindly give you all the informations you want. This study is not only peer reviewed, but it Also proves the Greek continuity. It's normal, that people learn in Their schools about how great the ancient Greeks were. When they find themselves against modern Greeks in reality, as Many Turks, albanians, and Slavs have in the last centuries, they are being put in a position of hating something worthy of admiration. Poorly structured and debunked arguments are being used as a result, to legalise and justify morally this realtion.


The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about. 
Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.

----------


## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?





> The Central Greek sample in Gedmatch is a mixed islander with mainlander not an actual Arvanite from Attica if that's what you are talking about. 
> Arvanites were 12% in Peloponnese in 1890.


I am not talking about the Central_Greek on Gedmatch. There is a different category called Greek_Attica. A sample collected From an inhabitant with full ancestry From Attica, a region with high degrees of endogamy. The sample was extremely close to Eastern Sicily. The center of Greek colonisation. Arvanites in the pelloponese weren't 12%. A German demographer, Alfred Philpson, who hardly visited the pelloponese reported this number in 1888. He reported 90.000 out of a Population of 730.000. On the same year. An Athenian academic, Mr Korilos published his detailed census of the peloponnese, having visited the Arvanite villages one by one. The mistakes of Philpson were truly unbelievable. He even claimed my own Laconian village, was Arvanite speaking! Funny enough, the elders of my village, born a few decades after his research, told me their parents and grandparents didn't speak Arvanite. In fact Mr Korilos's report showed 50.000 Arvanites in mainland pelloponese. And 20.000 in two little islands (they were historically densely populated). In fact, the Actual number, of Arvanite descent in the pelloponese is extremely small. The same German ethnographer, Philpson, noted in his works that the family names of the Arvanites, were nearly exclusively, Greek. Note that this wasn't a result of hellinization. Since the assimilation of Arvanites happened in the decade between 1912-1922 in this decade of war, the Arvanite youth followed Their fellow Greeks in battle, the family structure which spread and maintained the Arvanite language was broken, state control was increased, and 1.5 million Greeks arrived and settled amongst other places the aravnite center of Attica. Arvanites themselves live in places with not only Greek, But specifically ancient Greek names. 40% of the family names of the entire community, not the ones in the pelloponese only, were Greek, while the Arvanite name's, were only 25% of the community. The rest 35% were of mixed or unclear origins. In fact. Atticas albanisation, is not only carefully recorded, but in the 19th century, elders, still remembered nthe stories of Their grandparents. Which lived in th 17th century, the period When the albanisation of attica occurred.

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## ihype02

^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites? 
In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.

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## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?





> ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
> 
> I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites? 
> 
> In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of nothern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
> 
> As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.


Dear friend. I will presume that your interest on this matter is genuine. So I'll answer you likewise. The arrival and settlement of the Arvanites in Greece, has been perhaps the least studied part of the history of the region. And by least, I mean hardly anyone studied before the second world war. The westerners, were uncomfortable with non Greek speakers in the heart of Hellenism. They tried to disassociate it from the Hellines, for purely ideological reasons, not accepting the history of Greece. The numbers I gave if course we're not of the Greek government. The Greek state, didn't collect such data at the time. The numbers about the Greek Arvanites were given by the following people. Hahn(1840s), Philpson(1880s) and Finley(1830s). Those are the only foreigners Who in the 19th century attempted Such censuses. Hahn, was the first to publish his findings. He reported 174.000 Arvanites, in his book he rounds it up to 200.000. His work though was extremely problematic, regularly included non existent people, like the 10.000 Arvanites of Laconia, the 14.000 of phokaia and the 4.000 of sperchios. People who, don't exist. Hahn didn't visit all the Arvanite places, but rather asked others, falmereier about most of the data. Finley objected to Hahn's findings. Hahn, layer after the publication of his book, wrote a new prologue, admitting that his numbers were generally, not represenrive of the exact reality. Finley, had calculated 100.000 Arvanites (in his published notes). He also, in his work reported 200.000, possibly for not wanting to deviate from the pre existing assumptions, he generally, didn't spent much time talking about the Arvanites, he wasn't for the aforementioned reasons keen on the matter. Finally. Philpson, in his twelve month's in the country, reported the numbers I mentioned in the previous comments. The one who corrected him, was professor Korillos. Who collected the data by asking for the numbers from Major's of the Arvanite regions of Greece, Who were often enough of aravnite descent themselves. The most accurate of Those censuses, was. The one of Hahn. With some corrections, we can approximate the number of Greek Arvanites in the 1840s and 1850s to 120.000. the corrections are the aforementioned, plus.1) he talked about 30.000 Arvanites in Attica excluding the Greek speaking cities of Athens and Megara. But the population of the region was not only half the size, but Also included mixed settlements like elefsina. (Based in ottoman data, and travelers/visitors). He made the same mistake in South Euboea. 

Let's talk though about those "Arvanites". Their Greek name's, which about half of them had. One who doesn't know about the history if their settlement in Greece, might assume that were Hellinized names. This would be a mistake. Since the exact opposite happend. Not hellinization, but albanisation. Attica and Boitia, as the rest of Greece had booming agricultural and manufactural sectors in the 14th century (see William miller's "Francocracy in Greece"). So necessarily, they had a more than sufficient Population. The Arvanite settlements, as recorded in the Catalan, Florentine, and venician records were purely of military nature. Meaning, there was a demand for trained soldiers (all the Arvanites were solders, according to first hand sources, the men had Only one duty, training for and conducting war). Their settlement didn't happen in the densely populated agricultural centres. But in strategic positions. As I've probably written before, the Turkish invasion and venician relocations had as result a targeted and huge demographic decline of the Arvanites. This brought the surviving aravnites in contact with the locals (as refugees From Their initial settlements), and their former villages uninhabited. Arvanite movement South was organised and thus, well recorded. There wer not Many migration events. But one main event. When some of the Arvanites who weren't sent back to arbanon, settled Greece. The settler's Also, weren't only Arvanites. The venician records are clear. The invitation was to anyone who was a soldier, and could maintain himself, his family and one horse. Travelers in Attica in the 17th century, report specifically, no Arvanites in Menid, Marousi, Salamis and Koukouvaounes. Their arrival happened after an Arvanite revoot in Argolis. 7.000 Arvanites From Argolis, were relocated. 5.000 in the agean islands and Crete, and 2.000 in Attica. Then, slowly, the albanisation of attica was complete. 

But Why would the Greeks give up Their language? Why wouldn't the aravnite minority be absorbed by the Greek majority? This is a multifactoral answer. 1) There was no greek, or albanian state control. So every assimilation was a result of social interactions. This is fundamental in our understanding of the events. 2)The Arvanites, as a culture, are famously stubborn. There are plenty of proverbs in Greek, who describe and satirise the stubborn nature of the Arvanites. An assimilation of Arvanites by Greeks was out of the question straight away. The Church, Who many people think Hellinized others, didn't do this before the independence of the Greek state, since in an ottoman context, the language of the subject was irrelevant. Contrary to the heated period of the Macedonian struggle, where hellinization was a tool in the hands of the state. 3)The most important factor, which explains, the insane albanisation, in the specific regions of Attica and Boitia, is the Ottoman administration. Specifically the people, of albanian origin, running it. Tax collectors, of Muslim albanian background, treated the Arvanites better, on account of Their shared language. The Greeks, then. In an attempt to survive the harsh taxes, adjusted, as the Greeks are famous for. The Greek culture. Is incredibly flexible, elastic. Open to outsiders. The Greeks never Hellinized anyone without Their organised States, which could unlish the power of hellinization. Greeks, as a result, adopted Arvanite. The mixed marriages they made resulted in aravnite speaking kids, since this language, had much more social status in the ottoman empire, contrary, to the language of the orthodox Romans, the conquered, the enslaved, the Greeks. The name's of ancient Attica were carefully albanised, Amigdalia became Amigdaleza. Koukouvaines became Koukouvaounes and Varka became Varkiza. Old people, in the village of menidi, in the 19th century, remember hearing stories of the transition, by their grandparents, who were born in the late 17th early, 18th centuries, just after the assimlation. It should Also be noted, that because of different groups of Greeks, retaining different words and phrases from Greek When they transitioned, the Arvanite dialects were hardly mutually understood. As the Arvanites themselves would declare. The popular myths, the song's, the dresses in the weddings, the music, was still similar to the neighbouring greek speakers. This blood connection, of the Greek Arvanites, with hellinism explains what westerners described as following "The people, speak an albanian language, yet they seem all passionately proud about their ancestry From the builders of the Parthenon". In fact. Arvanites, of southern Greece. In their consciousness as a people, were proud about Their descent from the ancient Greeks. Which they called the people of old. This would have been impossible, if they were foreigners to the land. You can see it all around. The relationship the Turks, the Slavs and many others have with Their homeland, is clearly depicting, that they were foreigners to it. (The Turks of Cesme or Bodrum, never looked with pride the ancient Greek theaters of the region, feeling them as foreign to them). The Greek name's, of the Greek Arvanites, were a result of this assimilation. 

This as I've said. Explains why the inhabitants of Argolis (largely Arvanite speaking), are not closer to Albanians, genetically, than any other mainland greek, while they are really close (identical) with messinian and other greeks From non Arvanite speaking regions of the pelloponese.

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## ihype02

I didn't read all that, I don't have the energy.
But I will share this: 
"In all the Villages and Country about Athens, the In∣habitants are most Albaneses; and they are here more populous than in the Morea. I"
In 17th century.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo2/A...;view=fulltext

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## cybernautic

Albania uber Alles

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## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?





> ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
> I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites? 
> In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
> As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.


[QUOTE=ihype02;621946]I didn't read all that, I don't have the energy.
But I will share this: 
"In all the Villages and Country about Athens, the In∣habitants are most Albaneses; and they are here more populous than in the Morea. I"
In 17th century.

You are using a quote without knowing what it is. You are aware of so little, that you can't understand the meaning of the quote. If you are interested in having a discussion, that's Great. I am happy to listen to your remarks. My answer to this quote is in the previous post. If you want to have a monologue, that's fine, but I am letting you know, that you don't know, and that you should read my comment, otherwise, don't try to make a point without having a discussion.

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## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?





> ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
> I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites? 
> In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
> As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.





> Albania uber Alles


No... No... No...

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## cybernautic

> No... No... No...

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## blevins13

> 


Interesting, and it’s seems Peloponnesus is in the same boat .


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## Peter3467

> Greek history says that at the time of Fallmerayer there were 100 000 Turkish settlers in Peloponnese. 40 000 of them were killed . Would you deny that? Today's Peloponnese population is 1 000 000. At that time there were maybe 500 000 people living in Peloponnese. So 20% of population was ethnic Turks were not they? Did they live no genetic footprint after 300 years of common life with Greeks. No intermarriages happened.? How about arvanite villages that could have been over 60 of them? Vlahs! Known Slavic settlements! How could you believe this study?





> ^^ Two writers in 17th century said the population of Attica outside of Athens was almost enterily Albanian like in 19th century.
> I don't trust official census of Greece regarding the population of minorities. As for the samples, if they exist at all how do you know they are Arvanites? 
> In the Cretan study the bulk of Peloponnesians are like a top-eastern shifted version of Tuscans intermediate between Sicilians. I said top instead of northern to make more sense. Albanians would plot on top of Tuscans so they are not very far away. Not that I care or that it matters.
> As for surnames it's true some Arvanites carried Greek names just like Muslims carried Muslim/Turkish. Even Jews and Gypsies had Greek names like that.





> Interesting, and it’s seems Peloponnesus is in the same boat .
> Sent from my iPhone using


I was under the impression this was a serious chat Room. Let me explain you a thing or two. 1)Haplogroups don't correspond with ethnc groups. (Haplogroup E is common throughout Greece, southern Italy and the Balkans). 2) Skull shapes do not correspond with ethnic groups, this is 19th century racist propaganda. 3)The world isn't albanian. 
Contemporary studies and modern genetics have shown that out of all the Greeks, the closest to the Mycenaeans are the Peloponnesians. The spread of the haplogroup E also corresponds to the Hellenic expansion. In fact, this is one of the few times a certain haplogroup has been strongly identified with one historical event. With abnormal increases of haplogroup E in Corsica and southern France as well as the Asia minor coast. Sorry. But if you want to spread pseudo history/genetics darling, go to someone else, I am way out of your league.

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## ihype02

^ Cybernautic was being sarcastic.

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## Peter3467

> ^ Cybernautic was being sarcastic.


 And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.

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## blevins13

> And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.


Albanians = Egyptian, that is the funny part. Something and some people can’t change their mind even with genetic studies.


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## Angela

> 


You post this kind of stuff here again, and you're out of here.

Am I clear????

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## Dushman

> And apparently I was being stupid. Sorry. I am having a hard time telling sarcasm online. Text message and the many albanians actually believing those things make it even harder.


I see youre having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers. 

Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin? 

A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals. 

Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didnt have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.

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## cybernautic

> You post this kind of stuff here again, and you're out of here.
> 
> Am I clear????


Yes you are

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## Peter3467

> I see you�re having a hard time counting the Arvanites and are referring to some Greek studies on their numbers. 
> 
> Since this is Eupedia, may I suggest getting access to a database with deep subclades and count the amount of E-V13, R1b, and J2b2 of Central Balkan origin? 
> 
> A Bosnian member here called Aspurg did a great job separating the aforementioned subclades in Greece into Albanian-like and Bulgarian/Romanian-like, indicating clear Arvanite or Vlach origin of these tested individuals. 
> 
> Note that their number is quite high and if you deduct the more Northern origin of many E-V13 in Greece, you can to the conclusion that Greece originally didn�t have as much E-V13 as it has now, pointing to late Central Balkan origin, mostly after the Slavic invasion of the Balkans.


I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃

----------


## Dushman

> I am not having a hard time counting the Arvanites at all! I wrote my thesis on them. I didn't refer to Greek sources aside of Korilos corrections. I referred to Finlay, Philpson, Hahn. And honestly, Finley gave a lower number than what I did (100.000) while Hahn who wrote about the 174.000 Arvanites, he then published a new prologue for his book in which he corrected himself. Based on the corrections of Hahn himself we come to the conclusion of the 120.000 Arvanites in 1830s early 1840s. My Greek sources were for a research done by Philpson, 40 years later, and in the meantime the Greek population had doubled. I Also suggest you to read, not a bosniaks research, but the genetic contribution of Greeks in thessaly and Cordia. E-v13 was directly linked with greek colonisation. In fact occasionally it was the only source. I suggest you read more carefully next time and be more informed about history 🙃


You seem like the type that isnt focused while reading and needs a second explanation. 

Aspurg didnt conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin. 

J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821. 

As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.

----------


## Peter3467

> You seem like the type that isn�t focused while reading and needs a second explanation. 
> 
> Aspurg didn�t conduct a research, he just noticed in YFull or elsewhere how the parent clades of a very large number of E-V13 in Greece are in the area between Albania and Bulgaria/Romania, the majority being of Medieval origin and a minority of Iron Age/Illyrian origin. 
> 
> J2a is the truly predominant haplogroup of the Greeks, excluding the Neo-Greeks after 1821. 
> 
> As for Arvanites, we know plenty of examples of villages and lastnames with Albanian origins who have lost their identity long time ago, especially in Arcadia, Lakonia, and Mani, and even instances around Tripoli after the expulsion of the Muslims.


First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario. 

If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me. 

I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily. 

So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).

But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.

Concluding. Historically. Such a genetic shift can exist as a hypothesis only in the sphere of fantasy. Since, the Arvanites had neither the numbers nor the geographic spread (I've studied every Damn movement of them) Genetically. The ancient Greeks not having high E v13 number's. Is wrong. (Here, I can use firm language, since science, is not exactly a negotiable field).

But your theory, shows Also, an extreme luck of understanding of the ancient world. Albanians are a small people in the southern balkan peninsula. Not Even ancestors of all the illyrians, just a handful of southern tribes. Greeks, were geographically and historically great. The Greek speakers of Cyprus, and Pontus speak the language and call themselves Greeks since 600BC. By definition, they are ancient Greeks. Yet are genetically divergent From mainland Greeks. Mainland Greeks themselves, ever since the period of Mycenaeans were genetically different than the islands and especially Crete (a study published nature magazine, the results are free to read but you need subscription for the analytic data). Concluding. An approach which suggests that ancient Greeks, even only in the mainland had one dominant haplogroup, while we know very well events such as the Dorian invasion affected only some areas of the mainland, is either a naive prospective, or an ideologically motivated one. 

All considered. Evidence until the 19th century suggest albanisation of Greeks rather than the opposite. Family name's, villages are all primarily in greek. In Attica, the albanisation of locals is even more pronounced than anywhere. Since in attica, There are Very few Arvanite toponyms, excepting the deserted regions of the aravnite military villages (long story short Turks killed a lot of Arvanites). The Albanian language status in the ottoman empire, albanian tax collectors and officials, a warrior class (the Arvanites) in a humiliated and horrified agricultural majority (the Greeks). Arvanite culture of persistence in comparison with greek culture of adaptation. The simplicity of the Arvanite language in comparison with greek, and the absence of a Greek state (which historically has been the only way hellinization worked). All contributed to the albanisation of Greeks. Before you start yelling abou the church. Let me inform you, that the patriarch of Constantinople didn't give a Damn in the context of the ottoman empire about the culture and ethnic identity of his subjects. As long as they were loyal to him, and not to the other orthodox churches. On fact. Hellinization through the church was promoted through the church of Greece (funded after the independence) and only as a weapon of the Greek state (similar to the bulgarian exarchate church). This religious pressure for ethnic conversion, was pointless in a pre nation's world (most of the Ottoman period) where the ethnic identity of the subject was irrelevant, and ethnic struggles were non existent. In fact, the venicians probably understood how interchangeable the Greeks and Arvanites had become through mixing, and how the arvanite identity became more of a cultural thing, since in their speeches they specified, that the Arvanites and the Greeks are one nation. (This is from the Venetian senate, you can Google it).

----------


## blevins13

> First of all. You sound like the guy, who has a conclusion before looking into it. And then he rushes to create an images to prove the pre concluded scenario. 
> 
> If you know villages in Arcadia, or anywhere else for that matter, where Arvanites, were assimlated, (BEFORE THE 19YH CENTURY) I'd really interested if you could share those data with me. 
> 
> I personally, as a general rule, prefer it when I talk about things I fully and completely, not Only understand, but Also comprehend. So, without wanting to disprove the infinite wisdom From an Eupedia map. I'll have to redirect you to a study done and published in nature magazine (I can't post link's yet, so you gonna have to look for it) about the Genetic contribution of Greeks to Sicily. The study. Among other things, concluded, that the Haplogroup E-v13 which peaks in Eastern Sicily, was a result of an ancient genetic flow from Greece to Sicily. 
> 
> So. Based on that, which I tend to trudt a little bit more. I can firmly question you theory. Since it becomes obvious, Greece had high E v13 rates since antiquity. In fact, this haplogroup has become a signature fir greek colonisation. Also. As a guy who has spent so much time researching the arrival of the Arvanites in southern Greece, and their evolution. I can inform you, that it would have been for them impossible to create, such an impressive genetic shift, the likes of which the settlement of Greeks in Sicily didn't (The Same study funds the Greek contribution to be about 37% of the total gene pool dispite the intense colonisation).
> 
> But if you want to use Gedmatch and similar questionable sources. Then you gonna realise you are contradicting yourself. Since albanians are genetically closer to the Greeks Who have had the greatest slavic influence of all, native Greek speaking (Maybe not, it's really hard to know with Gedmatch, it could have been grecomans) macedonians. And genetically more distant to the peloponnese out of all the mainland groups.
> ...


One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


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## Dushman

From Wikipedia alone I understand the following: 

_A study from the Universit Cattolica del Sacro Cuore found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male demic diffusion model and Neolithic admixture with Mesolithic inhabitants.__[35]
_
Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.[40]

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## Vallicanus

Wikipedia is a dubious source.

As much as 26pc NW European? 

I think not.

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## Peter3467

[QUOTE=blevins13;622055]One question only, was E-V13 dominant haplogroup in Peloponnesus before 1200 BC or was a latter addition?


Sent from my iPhone using 

As I have explained before my field of expertise is history not genetics. I like to compliments my knowledge of history with genetics when we're talking about ancient immigrations but I'm really not an expert. Thus I do not make conclusions or discuss a lot about genetics I only mentioned what I have read in studies I can read online in scientific magazines like nature or science. 

The study claimed that there was a flow of this haplogroup from Southern Greece and the Balkans to Sicily in antiquity during the Greek colonization. So by the arcade and classical. Of Greece 800 to 400 BC it's obvious that high blood group E existed strongly in Greece. The same paper claimed that this particular mutation of capital group E appeared in the southern Balkans thousands of years ago. But the specific location or it's geographic distribution at the time is unknown. An event which could have saved the demography of ancient Greece is the Dorian invasion. 

Scholars have adopted one of two theories regarding this historical event. Some claim it was small in numbers and didn't really affect the population which it assimilated to Dorian culture. Some say that the invasion included significant numbers of people. If you were to hypothesize that dorians contributed to an increased presence of capital group E in southern Greece you wouldn't be baseless. But to what I'm aware of there is no study which has shown what happened group The dorians had or what it was its contribution in the Southern Bank and peninsula. Generally as I've understood it it's pretty hard to use genetics for immigration in a small geographic area by neighboring and similar people. 

So my answer would be that I do not know whether it was strongly present in the peloponnese at 1200 BC. It's definitely was heavily present by the time of Greek expansion due to it's being found in Sicily southern Italy Corsica southern France and being directly linked to the historical event. But other than that I really cannot give you anything else if you find something let me know.

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## Peter3467

[QUOTE=Dushman;622058]From Wikipedia alone I understand the following: 

found that while Greek colonization left little significant genetic contribution, data analysis sampling 12 sites in the Italian peninsula supported a male
Overall the estimated Central Balkan and North Western European paternal contributions in South Italy and Sicily are about 63% and 26% respectively.


I really don't want to be one of those who are quick to mention how unreliable Wikipedia is but as a guy who has had to dive deep in many historical events and specified subjects I can guarantee you that Wikipedia is really inaccurate when the topic is really specific or is really specialized. 

So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent. 

I said also told you you'll find that haplogroup E v13 is directly related with this event, not only in Sicily but I'm the whole of Western Mediterranean. 

For me this shows two things. 
1)That haplogroup E v13 was heavily reosrested in ancient southern balkan peninsula and specifically Greece.
2) that the comparison of ancient Greeks with modern Southern Italians is wrong. since Southern Italians and especially Sicilians draw most of their genetics from non Greek sources including Middle East North Africa Northern Italy and native Sicilians

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## Hawk

I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.

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## Peter3467

> I am interested in seeing more E-V13 subclades in Peloponessus, it seems to be dominated by E-V13 S2979 subclade. One specific subclade of S2979 is present in Peloponessus and also present among Apuglians so very likely stemming from Dorians.


Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.

But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them. 

The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.

Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.

But you could be totally right.

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## Hawk

> Well yes I guess. But In such a tight and interconnected geographic area such as the Southern Balkans especially if we consider that this is the region where this particular haplogroup E v13 appeared there it would be very hard to relate a specific subclades to a specific region. But maybe it could be easier to correlate these subclades with a specific historical event in southern Italy as you said and the Western Mediterranean since haplogroup E v13 arrived there through population movement from the Balkans recently in this is relatively well known.
> But again I'm not a geneticist or something so I would rather not rush to conclusions because there is always the chance that an account of my liking of understanding I misinterpret them. 
> The research team didn't really emphasize the existence of different subclades of Ev13. It could be possible that those subclades are really geographically spread since antiquity.
> Judging on the high amount of haplogroups in Greeks albanians in southern Italians and the fact that since prehistoric times the region has had the extreme population mixing (ancestral sources, like Indo europeans, Anatolian farmer's, neo lithic hunter gatherers) I would question whether the dorians had only one prevailing haplogroup, let alone subclade.
> But you could be totally right.


I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.

There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.

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## Peter3467

> I mentioned only the E-V13 part of the Dorians, didn't specify that they were 100% E-V13. Of course they could have been a mix of various Y-DNA.
> 
> There is J2a, R1b-Z2103, G2a and perhaps some T as well.


Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.

It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative

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## Vallicanus

[QUOTE=Peter3467;622064]


> found that while Gree
> So the only thing I can really tell you is that as you can read in nature magazine if you Google "genetic input of Greeks in Sicily". They don't study found that Greek colonization had a substantial effect of around 37% of the total gene pool of Sicily. This is not that off from the number 26% percent.


Sorry, you've lost me. Southern Italy has nothing like 26pc Northwest European.

Only some areas in the Italian Alps equal or exceed that figure. :Confused:

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## cybernautic

EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.

The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.

These Locals may have carried EV13

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## cybernautic

> Yeah I know what you mean. It's clear that southern Italy and southern balkans have historic and subsequently genetic ties.
> It could be possible Also for Dorian's to have some I2 a different subclade than the slavic one, but many Cretans have I2 and crete was Also colonized by Dorian's. I don't, know all these are really speculative


Some I clades have been found in ancient Minoan people from Crete which were analyzed.

I don't remember though if it was I2

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## Peter3467

> EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.
> 
> The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
> and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.
> 
> These Locals may have carried EV13


It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.

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## cybernautic

> It most likely arrived to the peloponnese from somewhere. I don't know though if this was in late pre historic times. It totally could be there for many thousands year's, seeing how haplogroup E arrived in Europe ~25.000 years ago. Judging by it existing from Serbia to Crete, it's totally possible that maybe we are looking for a specific event/migration which happened in so early that we can't know anything about it. Although tbh, it's first appearance and it's modern existence in the peloponnese must be pretty different. I would argue, that it existed a time when Haplogroup E-v13 was really dominant in southern balkans, before the arrival of the Anatolian farmers who impacted a lot places like Greece (where nowadays, most of the gene pool is of those Anatolians) and the later Slavic invasion which completely changed the northern Balkans. Kosovo could be an example of how large parts if Serbia and Dalmatia were before the slavic invasion.


My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.

Just one possibility

Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.

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## blevins13

> EV13 may have come to the Peloponnese from Central and Northern Greece.
> 
> The return of Heraklidae suggests that there were native Peloponnesian Mycanaeans who were expelled by local political rivals
> and driven into the North in Central or Northern they allied with Local people there to return and take their land back.
> 
> These Locals may have carried EV13


Seriously......


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## blevins13

> My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
> but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.
> 
> Just one possibility
> 
> Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.


Urnfield Hungary, would be a better guess, it exploded with urnfield culture.


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## Peter3467

> My point was that it might have been native to Greece but it wasn't native to the Peloponnese at the beginning
> but to more Northern parts of Greece Thessaly,Epiros and arrived from there to the Peloponnese.
> 
> Just one possibility
> 
> Another thing which might be interesting is that there exists a specific EV13 clade in the Cyclades which is found only there as it seems.


I am sceptic about the one in Cyclades. It could be a recent mutation. It may be that our sample size is very small. It could be a certain colonisation of the islands before the Mycenaean period. Sample sizes make conclusions with that accuracy problematic

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## cybernautic

> I am sceptic about the one in Cyclades. It could be a recent mutation. It may be that our sample size is very small. It could be a certain colonisation of the islands before the Mycenaean period. Sample sizes make conclusions with that accuracy problematic


You might take a look at the thread about EV13 here for further information about this clade

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## cybernautic

> Urnfield Hungary, would be a better guess, it exploded with urnfield culture.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


If it came from Urnfield it should be or have been common in Northern and Central parts of Italy too then

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## Peter3467

> You might take a look at the thread about EV13 here for further information about this clade


I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.

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## cybernautic

> I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.


Hmm ok, better to not fully trust it.

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## Dushman

> I meant that I am sceptic about the sample size and it's verification. I do not trust Eupedia for such in depth analysis.


You dont trust anything, not even the most basic facts about parent clades and younger clades splitting off from them. 

But were supposed to trust everything you say. Even the long tiring comments without paragraphs. 

Arent you supposed to be knowledgeable first in order to distrust/disprove someone elses opinion?

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## Peter3467

> You don�t trust anything, not even the most basic facts about parent clades and younger clades splitting off from them. 
> 
> But we�re supposed to trust everything you say. Even the long tiring comments without paragraphs. 
> 
> Arent you supposed to be knowledgeable first in order to distrust/disprove someone else�s opinion?


1) Sorry about the paragraphs.

2) I most definitely do not demand expect or hope you fully trust what I am saying. Doubt, questioning and criticism are important 

3) I never questioned the science behind the subclade in the Cyclades. If you read my dialogue with cybernautic you'll see that I questioned the sample size which lead to that conclusion

4) Questioning and trusting are two different things. I don't think Cybernautic lied, I genuinely think there is this subclade of E v13 which according to people who shared their results and willingly talked about them is only found there. I questioned though the sample size, the geographic location ( some Cyclades islands have had a history of re Population and have been anything but isolated From the mainland). 

5) If you want to question anything I've said, I would be more than happy to hear it. This is why I wrote it after all in this forum. Not for everyone to agree with it, but for someone to criticize it so we can have a discussion.

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## Mineiro25

In the modern Peloponnese there seems to have been an increase in Slavic and Levantine ancestry in relation to ancient Minoan and Mycenean samples. But apparently there was somewhere between 50% continuity, which is quite a lot.


Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.8607% / 0.01860665

32.6
Corded_Ware_POL



23.6
GRC_Minoan_EBA



22.4
GRC_Mycenaean



21.4
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA




Distance to:
Greek_Peloponnese

0.06417624
GRC_Mycenaean

0.09880740
GRC_Minoan_EBA

0.11279586
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA

0.15870429
Corded_Ware_POL:N49



Distance to:
GRC_Mycenaean

0.05467739
GRC_Minoan_EBA

0.10080089
Levant_Ashkelon_LBA

0.21222048
Corded_Ware_POL:N49

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## Jovialis

> In the modern Peloponnese there seems to have been an increase in Slavic and Levantine ancestry in relation to ancient Minoan and Mycenean samples. But apparently there was somewhere between 50% continuity, which is quite a lot.
> Target: Greek_Peloponnese
> Distance: 1.8607% / 0.01860665
> 
> 32.6
> Corded_Ware_POL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.

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## ihype02

> This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.


They shouldn't include Minoans. That is the mistake.

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## Jovialis

> They shouldn't include Minoans. That is the mistake.


Myceaneans can be modeled with Minoans in and of themselves. But also, I seriously doubt LBA_Ashkelon is a viable source as well. 21% is ludicrous, there's no way that is close to accurate.

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## ihype02

> Myceaneans can be modeled with Minoans in and of themselves. But also, I seriously doubt LBA_Ashkelon is a viable source as well. 21% is ludicrous, there's no way that is close to accurate.


Most Middle Eastern DNA in European Greeks must be of Anatolian origin by a historical perspective not Levantine.

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## Jovialis

> Most Middle Eastern DNA in European Greeks must be of Anatolian origin by a historical perspective not Levantine.


Indeed, historic and prehistoric, which would be overwhelmingly Anatolian_N, and CHG.

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## Angela

> This modeling makes no sense. If you are going to regurgitate clichés from misinformed people from Anthrogenica, you're not impressing anyone. G25's modern populations were even dismissed by Davidiski himself, for inaccuracies.


Eurogenes' minions never give up. Or perhaps it's him.:)

Anything to try to show it's Corded Ware people who came to Greece, whom, from all we know, seem to have gone north and west not south, and not people from, say, Catacomb culture or down the western side from Central Europe. Also, since ancient Greeks are so close to Southern Italians, we've got to get Levant in there somewhere, or they've been wrong for close to a decade. 

This is presupposing, in terms of Levant Ashkelon, that, for them to represent the ancestry of modern Greeks, a tidal wave of them went to Greece, in a movement undocumented in the history and archaeology. 

Shades of the Etruscans. :) They never tire of being wrong.

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## bicicleur 2

> If it came from Urnfield it should be or have been common in Northern and Central parts of Italy too then


the origin of the urnfield is not northern europe, the carpathian basin is more likely

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## Mrt19

Im from Turkey and i think i have any "Greek" Ancestry

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## cybernautic

> the origin of the urnfield is not northern europe, the carpathian basin is more likely


I talked about Northern Italy not Northern Europe

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## Theotokopoulos

We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.

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## blevins13

> We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.


I don’t know what you see in your end, but on my side Peloponnesus comes closest than Laberia. 


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## Jovialis

According to the Updated version of the Dodecad K12b modern coordinates, Peloponnese are to the direct "East" of me. At a 7-plus distance:

Distance to:
Jovialis

7.06623662
Greek_Peloponnese

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## Jovialis

I seem to plot roughly between Mycenaean Peloponnese and Modern Peloponnese, which is a coincidence. Nevertheless, I am certain that I have some Greek ancestry, given the history of my region of Italy.

Which is confirmed by DNA testing:

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## torzio

i plot the same as myheritage and similar numbers




and my #1 in MTA is I7043 ............hungarian burial ...most probably migrated from west to east in europe




*Copper Age Szigetszentmiklos Hungary 2350 BC** I7043
*
mtDNA: H1b1Y-DNA: R1b1a1b1a1a4 (FGC37097)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 41)
6 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 29.94 cM
Largest chain: 357 SNPs / 8.19 cM

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## blevins13

> I seem to plot roughly between Mycenaean Peloponnese and Modern Peloponnese, which is a coincidence. Nevertheless, I am certain that I have some Greek ancestry, given the history of my region of Italy.
> 
> Which is confirmed by DNA testing:


Can you hep me, I cannot post any photo?


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## Jovialis

^^You need to use a website like imgur, to upload the photo, and embed the bbcode in a post.

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## bigsnake49

I am wondering how much seafaring happened in the Bronze Age or even earlier the Neolithic. What types of boats or rafts? Any archaeological finds to document seafaring among southern Greece and Southern Italy?

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## Jovialis

> I am wondering how much seafaring happened in the Bronze Age or even earlier the Neolithic. What types of boats or rafts? Any archaeological finds to document seafaring among southern Greece and Southern Italy?


The was certainly some seafaring going on.

Scientists even speculate that the Neanderthals used boats:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...-mediterranean

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## matadworf

> We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.


My maternal grandfather came from a village in Messinia (Aetos, Tryfilia) and I'm getting (I believe) Albanian matches through him.

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## xri34

> My maternal grandfather came from a village in Messinia (Aetos, Tryfilia) and I'm getting (I believe) Albanian matches through him.


How many Albanian matches do you have?

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## bigsnake49

How many people are getting tested in each of the Balkan countries? If the Albanians are getting tested more than the other countries you will probably get a lot matches compared to the North Macedonians and the Bulgarians.

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## Ralphie Boy

Having grown up in the Greek community, it was very exclusive. We only associated with other Greeks (no offense, it was something like the big, fat Greek wedding movie). We come from villages in the Peloponnese that had Turkish or Slavic/Greek names. In those villages, the people spoke Greek going back to at least the late 1700’s, early 1800’s, from the few family lines I can trace and some village historians. Before that, there could have been Arvanites coming to live in those villages, converting to Greek and intermarrying. 

There must have been significant gene introgression into the Greek community, for us to have a lot of Arvanite ancestry. In my case, the question is when did it happen.

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## blevins13

> Having grown up in the Greek community, it was very exclusive. We only associated with other Greeks (no offense, it was something like the big, fat Greek wedding movie). We come from villages in the Peloponnese that had Turkish or Slavic/Greek names. In those villages, the people spoke Greek going back to at least the late 1700’s, early 1800’s, from the few family lines I can trace and some village historians. Before that, there could have been Arvanites coming to live in those villages, converting to Greek and intermarrying. 
> 
> There must have been significant gene introgression into the Greek community, for us to have a lot of Arvanite ancestry. In my case, the question is when did it happen.


This is not a difficult question to answer considering big-y and TMRCA of the male lines in Peloponnesus compared with the Albanian y dna lines.


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## Theotokopoulos

> I don’t know what you see in your end, but on my side Peloponnesus comes closest than Laberia.


Sorry for the delay, I was on holiday.

There are of course people in Peloponnesus who share with Labs in the past 400 years. Some sample pots are going to reflect this obvious fact. I just think the hypothesis sometimes put forward on these forums (essentially all or most Peloponnesians are descended in part from Albanians) is a lot more complicated. I feel this way as someone who used to be a proponent of the above to some extent. My anecodtal evidence is that people who have grandparents who spoke Arvantika share ancestors with South Albanians in the early modern period. Those whose grandparents were monolingual do not. There are bound to be exceptions. I do not know the exact reason why. It's clear that at one point there were many many Albanians in Morea. Perhaps the majority migrated to Italy. Perhaps they were already a mixed lot once they arrived there. Some ydna studies on the E1b in Morea would be helpful in this regard.

I do know that the Kolokotronis DNA project found his descendents to be I1, possibly a Norman clade brought to Greece by Albanians.

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## Dushman

Im a North Albanian from the region bordering Montenegro and I get Peloponnese as a top match. The connection between Peloponnese and Albanians is not a coincidence and it is not solely related to the Arvanites, but also previous internal Balkan migrations in earlier times, resulting in the accumulation of a a high percentage of Albanian/Arvanite amd Albanian-like admixture.

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## Yetos

> Sorry for the delay, I was on holiday.
> 
> There are of course people in Peloponnesus who share with Labs in the past 400 years. Some sample pots are going to reflect this obvious fact. I just think the hypothesis sometimes put forward on these forums (essentially all or most Peloponnesians are descended in part from Albanians) is a lot more complicated. I feel this way as someone who used to be a proponent of the above to some extent. My anecodtal evidence is that people who have grandparents who spoke Arvantika share ancestors with South Albanians in the early modern period. Those whose grandparents were monolingual do not. There are bound to be exceptions. I do not know the exact reason why. It's clear that at one point there were many many Albanians in Morea. Perhaps the majority migrated to Italy. Perhaps they were already a mixed lot once they arrived there. Some ydna studies on the E1b in Morea would be helpful in this regard.
> 
> I do know that the Kolokotronis DNA project found his descendents to be I1, possibly a Norman clade brought to Greece by Albanians.


Kolokotronis DNA project? Link?

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## Fustan

> I�m a North Albanian from the region bordering Montenegro and I get Peloponnese as a top match. The connection between Peloponnese and Albanians is not a coincidence and it is not solely related to the Arvanites, but also previous internal Balkan migrations in earlier times, resulting in the accumulation of a a high percentage of Albanian/Arvanite amd �Albanian-like� admixture.


A lot of guessing and speculating on your part when the Arvanite/Albanian migration has been well documented and was quite large especially in the Peloponnese. Now if we found that Albanians and Cretans/Thracian Greeks/Macedonian Greeks then I think you would possibly have a point. But the fact is as I said the Arvanite migrations were quite large and are well documented and are thus the only reason to explain these genetic similarities.

I think you might just be underestimating the scale of the migration. Keep in mind that there were Islands close to Peloponnesus which became entirely inhabited by Arvanites/Albanians.

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## matadworf

As I posted on Anthrogenica earlier today I discovered (just yesterday) that my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite. I had suspected this for the past few years. My suspicion was linked partly to a strong Albanian shift on G 25 but was confirmed when I posted my grandfather’s oral history (transcribed by my mom in 1959) on the FB Greek Ancestry/History site. The oral history traces his paternal line to an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis Arcadia. Other posters confirmed both his birth village, Aetos Messinia and ancestral village as being Arvanite. It’s really no surprise to me but was never mentioned or even known by my mom. My cousin who visited Greece with my Grandfather in the 60s mentioned an Albanian connection but it wasn’t further explored until now.

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## Fustan

> As I posted on Anthrogenica earlier today I discovered (just yesterday) that my maternal grandfather was an Arvanite. I had suspected this for the past few years. My suspicion was linked partly to a strong Albanian shift on G 25 but was confirmed when I posted my grandfather’s oral history (transcribed by my mom in 1959) on the FB Greek Ancestry/History site. The oral history traces his paternal line to an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis Arcadia. Other posters confirmed both his birth village, Aetos Messinia and ancestral village as being Arvanite. It’s really no surprise to me but was never mentioned or even known by my mom. My cousin who visited Greece with my Grandfather in the 60s mentioned an Albanian connection but it wasn’t further explored until now.


Would be great to have that side tested somehow.

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## matadworf

> Would be great to have that side tested somehow.


I know. Only one (male) first cousin who carries the male haplogroup from that Arvanite line. I'm trying to reach and have him tested.

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## Dushman

> A lot of guessing and speculating on your part when the Arvanite/Albanian migration has been well documented and was quite large especially in the Peloponnese. Now if we found that Albanians and Cretans/Thracian Greeks/Macedonian Greeks then I think you would possibly have a point. But the fact is as I said the Arvanite migrations were quite large and are well documented and are thus the only reason to explain these genetic similarities.
> 
> I think you might just be underestimating the scale of the migration. Keep in mind that there were Islands close to Peloponnesus which became entirely inhabited by Arvanites/Albanians.


Ill break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times). 

The only thing I didnt do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian. 

Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close. 

On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we dont.

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## lacreme

> I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times). 
> 
> The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian. 
> 
> Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close. 
> 
> On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.


One also has to account for 
-The internal migrations during the centuries before the completion of the Ottoman conquest of Peloponnese and after it.
-The external migrations to places like South Italy.
-The conversion to Islam of at least a part of the population, with the exception of any possible back conversions to Christianity during or after the Greek revolution and the establishment of the first Greek state the rest being counted as "Turk-Albanians" would had normally been "taken out" of the local -Christian- gene pool.
-The migration of Epirotes and Vlachs to various parts of Peloponnese, these populations would have brought additional West Balkan/Albanian-like "signatures" / shared IBD ?

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## Yetos

> I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times). 
> 
> The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian. 
> 
> Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close. 
> 
> On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.


Just remember that thecountryof Fier, Durres, etc were also Greekcolonists,
Fier (Φτερη) was colony of Peloponesians (korintheans)
Also Koryca was at Makedonian Kingdom

So some relations might be vice-versa. 
Plz notice also this

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## matadworf

> I�ll break it down for you: old neighbouring populations for thousands of years = genetically connected (fact) through intermarriages, internal migrations, and common shared ancestry (early farmers, indo-europeans, local Sardinian-like ancestry) -> New immigrants (Slavs) arrive = old populations are pushed South to the extreme bottom of the peninsula (Peloponnese) -> mountainous areas less affected by the Slavic influx remain genetically closer, whereas areas like Greek Macedonia and Thrace are shifted towards Bulgaria (locals + North-Eastern Europeans/Slavs + other populations like Anatolians or Armenians from Byzantine times). 
> 
> The only thing I didn�t do is underestimate the Albanian scale of migration. Instead, it was you who underestimates the degree to which areas of Illyricum, Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Aetolia, Paeonia, etc. were related, as shown by the affinity that 1 Bronze Age Macedonian sample had with modern Albanians, or even the Iron Age Thracian. 
> 
> Thus, shared IBD and similar genetic makeup lead to Albanians and Peloponnesians being quite close. 
> 
> On the other hand, if the Albanian migration scale was as extremely high as you suggest, Albanians and Peloponnesians would almost overlap, but we don�t.


One very obvious reason for that is that there are significant parts of the Peloponnese (like Mani and the Eastern Taygetus Tsakonians) that remain exceptionally isolated. Those areas plot further South (less Steppe higher CHG and/or Levant PPNB) than the Peloponnesian average and bring the entire peninsula back towards the mean; i.,e less Slavic and/or Albanian shifted.

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## matadworf

> How many Albanian matches do you have?


Several on 23 and Me but i just discovered that he/his family were Arvanites.

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## Fustan

> We can now see pretty clearly the extent of Albanian influence on the Peloponnese. Arvanites are getting 3rd cousins in Vlore, majority of modern Peloponnesians are not. Even my family is from a town with a (supposedly) Arvanitic name in the center of Morea. No matches with Albania, but plenty with Sicily and Calabria. I don't want to downplay Albanian role in the modern history of Peloponnese. But it looks to me it's somewhat settled that their influence far outweighed their numbers.


Mate I'm albanian from kosovo and Peloponesus is by far my highest match on 23andme.

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## Bill7

There is Albanian influence in the Peloponnese it's just not so large as many Albanian nationalists claim to be

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## Constantine

There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.

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## blevins13

> There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.


If so why?

Image1630835123.340711.jpg



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## Bill7

> If so why?
> 
> Image1630835123.340711.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes

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## blevins13

> What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes


What do you mean by native?


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## Bill7

> What do you mean by native?
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


Ancient Greek and Paleobalkan

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## blevins13

> Ancient Greek and Paleobalkan


Image1630868039.478986.jpg

To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.



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## Angela

> What are you trying to say? Do you disagree that the peloponnese is one of the places with the least slavic influence in the balkans and so it should theoretically have the most native balkan genes


It's just the same old, same old: there are no Greeks in Greece, not even in the Peloponnese; they're all Albanians. :) Some of them will never stop.

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## blevins13

> It's just the same old, same old: there are no Greeks in Greece, not even in the Peloponnese; they're all Albanians. :) Some of them will never stop.


I have matches in Peloponnesus, a lot of them, do you believe that they are due to Paleo Balkan or Ancient Greeks.
I have never said there are no Greeks in Greece go back and read my posts before making such claims.


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## ihype02

> I have matches in Peloponnesus, a lot of them, do you believe that they are due to Paleo Balkan or Ancient Greeks.
> I have never said there are no Greeks in Greece go back and read my posts before making such claims.
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously. 
As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.




> Image1630868039.478986.jpg





> To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum




The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.

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## blevins13

> Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously. 
> As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.
> 
> 
> 
> The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.


Probably this doesn’t mean any thing, but I have:

299 Dna relatives in Albania
182 Dna relatives in Greece 

And still per 23 and me Peloponnesus comes closer than Albania.

Time will tell.


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## Dianatomia

How Slavic are mainland Greeks if IA Balkan equals Ancient Greek? 

How Slavic are Anatolian Greeks if Greek Empuries equals Ancient Greek from Asia Minor?

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## ihype02

> How Slavic are mainland Greeks if IA Balkan equals Ancient Greek?


22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian. 



> How Slavic are Anatolian Greeks if Greek Empuries equals Ancient Greek from Asia Minor?


Probably falls into the "statistical error" when modeling to make the fit tighter.

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## blevins13

> Just remember that thecountryof Fier, Durres, etc were also Greekcolonists,
> Fier (Φτερη) was colony of Peloponesians (korintheans)
> Also Koryca was at Makedonian Kingdom
> 
> So some relations might be vice-versa. 
> Plz notice also this


Sure we notice, there ai no reason not to cherish such legacy, but at the end the famous rubber will meet the road, it will come to Y-Dna and I am afraid in mainland Greece the Greek ones will be lacking, and Slavic, Vllah, and Arvanite it seems will be the majority. 


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## Constantine

> What do you mean by native?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


I used the term somewhat loosely as "anything pre-Slavic."

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## Constantine

> Image1630868039.478986.jpg
> 
> To me Peloponnesus is close to IA Balkans not to Paleo Balkans. But The matches that Albanians are getting in Peloponnesus are related to more recent events, reflecting the migration waves of the collapse of the Roman Empire and Bizantine Empire.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


Greece was invaded in the Iron Age, and this put a dent in the population structure.

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## Constantine

> Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously. 
> As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.
> 
> 
> 
> The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.


Romanians and Bulgarians aren't as Slavic (genetically) as the others. The Italian situations is obvious. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here.

.2-14.4% "Slavic" ancestry tested in some random villages doesn't pull Pelos into the Iron Age. Only heavy, real IA ancestry can do that.

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## Bill7

> 22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian.


 you can also use the scythian samples, the getae, the cimmerian, the szolad and HRV samples to measure the iron age balkan ancestry

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## Dianatomia

> 22% for Peloponnese to 33% for Macedonia and a bit a higher for Thrace if you use the Iron Age Thracian.


Interesting, still 1 out of 5 in South Greece. 

And what if we compare mainland Greeks to Log01 and Log02. How much Slavic admixture do they have. Macedonians, Thessalians and Peloponessians.

How much Slavic admixture do Log01 and Log02 have compared to Mycenaeans?

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## ihype02

> Romanians and Bulgarians aren't as Slavic (genetically) as the others. The Italian situations is obvious. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here.
> 
> .2-14.4% "Slavic" ancestry tested in some random villages doesn't pull Pelos into the Iron Age. Only heavy, real IA ancestry can do that.


Seriously "cousins" are popping from Iron Age Migrations? Anything past 300 years from those cousin matches is completely useless.

What do you think of the recent paper where Peloponnesians are shifted 13% to Russia_Ingria_IA compared to *Roman Age Serbian* samples and for Greek Macedonians it's 23%. I would bet big bucks that Classical Age Peloponnesians will be essentially Mycenaean-like, exculding Anatolian and other related admixture which could've gone there in the big cities. 

Also how much "Mycenaean" were the Classical Greeks of Peloponnese after the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Migrations in your opinion? Because it kinda seems like a large scale replacement based on your hypothesis.

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## ihype02

> Interesting, still 1 out of 5 in South Greece.
> And what if we compare mainland Greeks to Log01 and Log02. How much Slavic admixture do they have. Macedonians, Thessalians and Peloponessians.
> How much Slavic admixture do Log01 and Log02 have compared to Mycenaeans?


I don't think you can estimate the Slavic admixture with those samples because they plot north on most of Greeks and overlap with some few.

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## Dianatomia

> I don't think you can estimate the Slavic admixture with those samples because they plot north on most of Greeks and overlap with some few.


I understand, but I am just using their methodology. Migrations are complicated. These Northern Greeks could have been outliers, but then again so could the IA people in the Danube. 
Some things don't add up to me. Supposedly Albanians are half Slavic. Then why do they plot away from Slavs? Even from Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs. 
And then there is the thing with E-V13. It is quite remarkable that Thessalians, among Greeks, have most of it. While the Vlachs have the least (aside from Cretans). 
So from where and when did this E-V13 arrive in Thessaly? And why were these Northern Greeks so different from the ones further South? Is there a connection?

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## ihype02

> I understand, but I am just using their methodology. Migrations are complicated. These Northern Greeks could have been outliers, but then again so could the IA people in the Danube. 
> 
> Some things don't add up to me. Supposedly Albanians are half Slavic. Then why do they plot away from Slavs? Even from Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs. 
> 
> And then there is the thing with E-V13. It is quite remarkable that Thessalians, among Greeks, have most of it. While the Vlachs have the least (aside from Cretans). 
> 
> So from where and when did this E-V13 arrive in Thessaly? And why were these Northern Greeks so different from the ones further South?


This is controversial but Albanians probably came from north into modern Albanian only after the Slavs reached Bulgaria. 
This could explain why they are close to modern Bulgarians despite having significantly less I2a and R1a. 

Vlachs diverge from each other we cannot analyze them and E-V13 in Greece with the limited sources we have. 
There are numerous explanations such as:
- Thessalians and Vlachs were both enriched with E-V13.
- Thessalians were enriched with E-V13, Vlachs were not or the vice versa. 
- Vlachs were enriched with E-V13 but not numerous enough to influence the numbers in Thessaly. 
- Vlachs were quite numerous and did in fact decrease the E-V13 in Thessaly. 
And so and so forth.

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## blevins13

> This is controversial but Albanians probably came from north into modern Albanian only after the Slavs reached Bulgaria. 
> This could explain why they are close to modern Bulgarians despite having significantly less I2a and R1a. 
> 
> Vlachs diverge from each other we cannot analyze them and E-V13 in Greece with the limited sources we have. 
> There are numerous explanations such as:
> - Thessalians and Vlachs were both enriched with E-V13.
> - Thessalians were enriched with E-V13, Vlachs were not or the vice versa. 
> - Vlachs were enriched with E-V13 but not numerous enough to influence the numbers in Thessaly. 
> - Vlachs were quite numerous and did in fact decrease the E-V13 in Thessaly. 
> And so and so forth.


So far I believe that probably Tosk albanian have been located between Drin and Shkumbin, and they moved south with coming of Gegs Albanians from north. 

Slavs should have found them in this respective position. The spread of the Y-Dna of Albanians does not oppose this scenario.


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----------


## torzio

> Peloponnese is overrepresented in "matches", many Romanians, Italians and Bulgarians are all scoring "Peloponnese". Don't take it seriously. 
> As for Arvanites of Peloponnese, in 19th century they were around 10-15% of the population. When the Venetians had the Peloponnese in 18th century they said the vast majority were of population was Greek or at least Greek-speaking.
> 
> 
> 
> The Slavic admixture pulled them north into IA Balkans.


*In 1395 Argos was raided by the Ottomans and the Venetians repopulated the town by bringing in Albanians. The light cavalry of the Venetian army was made up of stradiotti, Albanian mercenaries, known for their unorthodox tactics and cruelty. In 1463 the Venetians surrendered Argos, but they were able to retain control of Nauplia until 1540. 

*https://www.romeartlover.it/Argo.html

----------


## peloponnesian

> Mate I'm albanian from kosovo and Peloponesus is by far my highest match on 23andme.





> There must be more to it than just Albanian influence in the Peloponnese. Arvanites are a minority. Most of the Balkan results I see on 23andMe forums are getting high Peloponnese. I'm pretty sure it's because Peloponnesians in general are just the closest thing to native Balkan ancestry.


It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database. If it was some exact science, then Albanians would get Epirus as their closest region and Romanians would get Thessaly/Epirus/Macedonia (where Vlachs actually live).




> you can also use the scythian samples, the getae, the cimmerian, the szolad and HRV samples to measure the iron age balkan ancestry


Not really, the new Balkan samples are on a cline with some being close to modern Greek islanders and ancient Anatolians (so very far from Szolad and HRV). The Balkan population at the time of the Slavic settlement was more southern-shifted than previously believed, it looks like.

----------


## Dianatomia

> The Balkan population at the time of the Slavic settlement was more southern-shifted than previously believed, it looks like.


But the Illyrians were more Northern shifted than believed it seems Judging from previous samples. 

Is it possible that there simply was a lot of genetic variety in the Balkans, post IA?

----------


## Constantine

> It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database. If it was some exact science, then Albanians would get Epirus as their closest region and Romanians would get Thessaly/Epirus/Macedonia (where Vlachs actually live).




I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.

There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Peloponnesians are a little more southern shifted than Albanians, according to one PC from a recent study, maybe the Roman cities in the Balkans. Greeks also have more male J2a than J2b than Albanians, so there is that difference—but someone said Arvanites have more J2a than J2b, which would be interesting if true. 

There is also the other half of the equation: women. Sometimes maybe there is too much focus on male haplogroups. 

Also, when we talk about descent from ancient Greeks, we should consider neighboring populations for study, to see if there is evidence of some relationship. The Greeks were a large population in the southern Balkans. It would be shocking if the ancients completely disappeared.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> [/FONT]
> I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.
> 
> There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post


As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.

Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.

Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.

----------


## Constantine

> As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.
> 
> Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.
> 
> Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.


I would think that the Albanians have some intimate tie to all this as well, being that the Albanian language is full of Latin.

----------


## td120

> It would be helpful for you guys to investigate how 23andMe's region-assigning algorithm works. Long story short, the reason so many Balkanites get Peloponnese as their top region (or one of the top) is because Greek-Americans, who mostly descend from the Peloponnese, are the most tested Balkan population on 23andMe's database.





> [/FONT]
> I would think it more important to investigate genetic *similarity* rather than genetic *quantity*. I doubt representation has much to do with it. Do you understand how this algorithm works? I would bet not.
> 
> There's no reason to assume Epirotes would be exactly like Albanians. Likewise, there's no reason to assume that Vlachs = Romanians. The Balkans above Greece was once Latin speaking. You seriously believe these people all disappeared and then the region was repopulated by Romanian colonists?? I suggest you think through what you post


I believe peloponnesian is right on this. The sub-regions 23andme assigns seem to be also based on self-declared places of origin of the participants' ancestors (and not solely on genetic similarity) so representation does play a significant role. For example Bulgarians too get Peloponnese as #1 Greek Sub-region. This would change if more people with ancestry from Western Thrace and Macedonia got tested.

More on this:
https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/...stor-Locations

----------


## blevins13

> As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.
> 
> Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.
> 
> Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.


Arche, disappointing with you here , you can’t understand Albanians and their origin without studying vllah, aromanian, and Romanian.


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----------


## Archetype0ne

> I would think that the Albanians have some intimate tie to all this as well, being that the Albanian language is full of Latin.


Certainly. Illyrian wars were some of the first wars of expansion of the Romans beyond the peninsula. 

My guess though is that some of the linguistic similarities are not just pure loan words.
Given what we have seen genetically, Balkans and Italy have been connected way before the Romans. So there might have been some cousinry going on between Balkan pops and Latins or whatever.

Like knowing a couple of language I always stumble upon interesting stuff.

Volimo - (we)want/love in some Serbian/Croatian

Vogliamo - (we)want in Italian

Volition - faculty of using ones will English/French?

Guest - English
Gosti - Guest.

Now it is obvious such fringe and basic concepts are of IE or proto-IE nature. At least that is what I would think. Unless these ethnicities/languages did not "love/want" things before Latins taught them how to?

I always found it funny that certain Albanian dialects, use Mënej as extreme anger/hatered/antipathy. And the same word is the same word Homer used to start the Illiad... It is the etymological root of Maniac.
Certainly the world for hate/anger is not one you would typically borrow.

The issue in Albanian studies I feel is the nuances due to 1400-1600 years since the Gheg - Tosk split, and local dialects being isolated and evolving over time and differentiating. Not even Danish and Swedish have split as early as these dialects, and in reality just knowing how grammar changes in coloquial talk from Prishtine to Vlore, I would bet you can consider them two languages the same way Danish and Swedish. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Danish

And trust me, Albanians will make fun of how various Albanians talk, especially southerners towards northerners (since its more alien to them, being further away from the standard Albanian codified by Hoxha, Elbasan Dialect was taken as a base), probably not as much as Danes and Swedes do with each other though.

Now literary Albanian/standard Albanian bridges the gap for serious matters. But if you record a conversation in Prishtina in full slang and play it to someone from Vlore, I would be interested to know how much of the contents would be understood. And comparatively how that would relate to a Dane hearing some Swede conversation. However, playing a conversation from some fellows from Vlore to Prishtina Albanians would probably be understood to a much higher degree, again due to standard Albanian being based on a more souther dialect.

If it was only about vocabulary it would be no big deal. We are talking basic grammar changes.

Jam kon. (I *am* been)I have been.
Kam qene. I *have* been

*Ka me* shku. (*Have* to go) Will go.
*Do te* shkoj. *Will* go.

Having a Toske speaking mothers side and Gheg speaking father side, you notice such things.
During early childhood I was raised in a southern Gheg/Toske speaking city, when I moved to an Eastern Gheg city for preschool I could not understand what fellows were saying to me, heck even older teachers predating "Albanian standard language" could not understand me. Made for awkward situations.

I overshared a bit here. But I feel its an interesting tidbit.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Arche, disappointing with you here , you can’t understand Albanians and their origin without studying vllah, aromanian, and Romanian.
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


Pse mo _vlla_? oops. Why _bro_? It is clear some of our vocabulary might be of pre IE origin, or maybe even post IE but paleo Balkan sprachbund related ancestry?

If you can use analysis of Latin and ancient Greek loanwords into Albanian to learn about its history / geolocation when the loans were taken, certainly you can use Romanian and Vlach? I mean... there is whole degrees of study, linguistics appointed to such matters.

I mean come on, them using _fara_ for _people_ ​has to amuse you at least a little bit no? I find it fascinating. Cause usually words for seed/people are rarely borrowed.

Edit: Man its obvious I am tired and completely misread what you wrote. You are right, and have the right to be disappointed. Not deleting my lame response for the lol.

----------


## ihype02

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.9474% / 0.01947414

76.0
Sicilian_East



19.0
Ukrainian



5.0
Armenian_Hemsheni




Without Armenian:
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 2.0028% / 0.02002754

82.2
Sicilian_East



17.8
Ukrainian





Maniotes:
Target: Greek_Laconia
Distance: 2.6869% / 0.02686919

88.2
Sicilian_East



11.8
Ukrainian

----------


## Pr0_

> As far as I know Vlachs are also known as Aromanians. From the very word, not Romanians. Meaning that they were some of the Balkan populations that did not get Romanized/Latinized like the Romanians. But they could have been of similar stock, not sure about that. Would be cool if Vlachs or Romanians in this forum would chime in.
> 
> Edit: Read some more on the net. Seems I have to read a lot more on the topic. Vlachs are truly fascinating. Fara Armãneascã ("Aromanian tribe"), interesting how many features Aromanian, Romanian and Albanian share. Fara in Albanian means seed. Meaning based on the nature of the world it has to date to the first farmers, and it being shared among various paleo Balkan people, has got to mean something about some proto common language/sprachbund from at least the neolithic/ farming related peoples.
> 
> Alas, ignore my initial post, seems that Aromanians were also romanized/latinized? at least from the wiki, so makes the whole nomenclature of a-romanian even more confusing.


All the Vlach groups are considered to share a common origin and to have split between 900 AD and 14th century. This includes Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian etc.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Target: Greek_Peloponnese
> Distance: 1.9474% / 0.01947414
> 
> 76.0
> Sicilian_East
> 
> 
> 
> 19.0
> ...


Could you use the same model for Albanian? Do we have various Albanian source pops by region? Would love to see how a Mirditore would fit into this model.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> All the Vlach groups are considered to share a common origin and to have split between 900 AD and 14th century. This includes Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian etc.


Yes, I saw that, and find the dating a bit hard to believe. But given how mobile Vlachs used to be who knows.

----------


## Pr0_

> I understand, but I am just using their methodology. Migrations are complicated. These Northern Greeks could have been outliers, but then again so could the IA people in the Danube. 
> Some things don't add up to me. Supposedly Albanians are half Slavic. Then why do they plot away from Slavs? Even from Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs. 
> And then there is the thing with E-V13. It is quite remarkable that Thessalians, among Greeks, have most of it. While the Vlachs have the least (aside from Cretans). 
> So from where and when did this E-V13 arrive in Thessaly? And why were these Northern Greeks so different from the ones further South? Is there a connection?


 this is what I get with one calculator made by a Greek member from another forum 

Distance to:
pr0_(albanian)

6.68531226
Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02

7.07243947
Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log04

26.90136614
Celtic:France_IA_ATT26

28.23606913
Slavic:I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_yb p

32.47881155
Germanic:E09613_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4165_ ybp

32.84719014
Ottoman:MA2196_Anatolia_Ottoman2.SG_3800_ybp

44.45530002
Hamitic:JK2134_Egypt_New_Kingdom_3250_ybp

47.07688286
West_Asian:F38_Iran_IA.SG_2852_ybp

48.88141978
Judaean:I0644_Israel_C_5950_ybp

78.65832378
Mongolian:XiongNu_1960_R_L645_N9a2_4_5_11_

92.23550347
East_African:I5950_Ethiopia_4500BP.SG_4472_ybp




Target: pr0_(albanian)
Distance: 1.7397% / 1.73971157

71.8
Ancient_Northern_Greek



22.0
Slavic



4.3
Judaean



1.9
West_Asian

----------


## Archetype0ne

> this is what I get with one calculator made by a Greek member from another forum 
> 
> Distance to:
> pr0_(albanian)
> 
> 6.68531226
> Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02
> 
> 7.07243947
> ...


Can you share the calc? Wanna compare myself.

----------


## Pr0_

> Can you share the calc? Wanna compare myself.


yes take this code




> Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02,25.42,12.2 5,24.46,9.54,23.63,2.29,0,0,0,1,1.21,0,0.18
> Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log04,27.02,17.2 3,18.01,13.6,18.4,1.55,0.08,0.5,0.83,2.35,0.3,0,0. 13
> Judaean:I0644_Israel_C_5950_ybp,0.00,0.00,24.49,0. 00,51.94,22.96,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.61,0.00
> West_Asian:F38_Iran_IA.SG_2852_ybp,1.28,2.23,9.24, 43.58,26.69,8.18,8.09,0.08,0.00,0.51,0.05,0.00,0.0 6
> Ottoman:MA2196_Anatolia_Ottoman2.SG_3800_ybp,8.29, 8.42,6.85,24.15,18.96,3.02,5.13,6.17,15.07,1.54,0. 00,2.39,0.00
> Slavic:I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_yb p,30.89,37.94,12.04,8.95,5.72,0.86,0.00,0.00,2.09, 0.47,0.11,0.93,0.00
> Germanic:E09613_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4165_ ybp,40.55,28.74,8.47,15.06,0.00,0.00,3.41,0.00,0.0 0,2.79,0.41,0.57,0.00
> Hamitic:JK2134_Egypt_New_Kingdom_3250_ybp,1.13,0.0 0,18.89,4.31,46.89,21.22,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00, 7.57,0.00
> East_African:I5950_Ethiopia_4500BP.SG_4472_ybp,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.13,0.24,0.38,1.39,1.3 5,79.07,16.45
> ...


And go to Vahaduo website K13 Ancient and delete all samples there and add only these.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Quite interesting calc.

----------


## Pr0_

Based on that, Albanians are not even close to half Slavic.

On this calculator I have seen some more Southern shifted Albanians not getting any Slavic at all.

----------


## Pr0_

This guy from Southern Albania does not get any Slavic
And apparently his family came from Northern Albania once. 

Distance to:
Geni(albanian)

5.42313562
Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02

10.33731106
Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log04

30.94740538
Ottoman:MA2196_Anatolia_Ottoman2.SG_3800_ybp

32.50827741
Celtic:France_IA_ATT26

34.32400035
Slavic:I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_yb p

37.60606068
Germanic:E09613_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4165_ ybp

39.63546266
Hamitic:JK2134_Egypt_New_Kingdom_3250_ybp

43.05443647
West_Asian:F38_Iran_IA.SG_2852_ybp

44.22980443
Judaean:I0644_Israel_C_5950_ybp

79.17313623
Mongolian:XiongNu_1960_R_L645_N9a2_4_5_11_

92.43684384
East_African:I5950_Ethiopia_4500BP.SG_4472_ybp





Target: Geni(albanian)
Distance: 2.7745% / 2.77446719

87.8
Ancient_Northern_Greek



8.3
Judaean



3.9
West_Asian

----------


## Pr0_

> Quite interesting calc.


Yes I think it is a good calculator despite some people get excessive Jewish or West Asian, (I think it can be added onto pre-Slavic ancestry)

Still better than some of those Serbs that claim we apparently are only 50% Paleo-Balkan autosomally  :Laughing: 

They invent some theories how Romans genetically changed the Balkans yet these Ancient Greek samples simply disprove it. Just look how close they
are to some Albanians at distance of 5, 6 and 7. Closer than most samples I have seen so far.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> This guy from Southern Albania does not get any Slavic
> And apparently his family came from Northern Albania once. 
> 
> Distance to:
> Geni(albanian)
> 
> 5.42313562
> Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02
> 
> ...


wow

I wonder if POH27 from the Early Medieval Slavic samples was used would it change this guys results in any way?

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post766075

He is https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z49/ with very very interesting autosomal profile... From around Czechia IIRC.

----------


## Archetype0ne

PS: I do not get any Judean or Jewish one FTDNA where I did my autosomal or even Slavic for that matter.
But a lot of calculators do give me some Jewish results, Asheknazi, even Shepardi. Mostly related to Poland and Estonia on some more specific ones. High PPNL also.

I do have some suspicion of having had a Jewish maternal gggfather, grandfather of my mtgrandfather. But it is based on shaky suspicions of some masonry on the stone house gate after it burned to the ground, of star of David surrounded by a snake. Also supposedly that side of the family was involved with trade around Turkey/Ottoman empire so who knows. That 15% might be just noise, or there could be something to it.

I do also somehow score high Baltic Neo for some reason.

----------


## Pr0_

> wow
> 
> I wonder if POH27 from the Early Medieval Slavic samples was used would it change this guys results in any way?
> 
> 
> 
> He is with very very interesting autosomal profile... From around Czechia IIRC.


maybe.. as I know playing around with these samples seems to change the results. Sometimes I get Germanic instead of Slavic for example. So I don't
trust these calculators but the distance seems to make a lot of sense as do the results for this case. 

I think we will find more Ancient Balkan samples like those Greeks which will change most peoples results to much less Slavic.

----------


## Pr0_

> PS: I do not get any Judean or Jewish one FTDNA where I did my autosomal or even Slavic for that matter.
> But a lot of calculators do give me some Jewish results, Asheknazi, even Shepardi. Mostly related to Poland and Estonia on some more specific ones. High PPNL also.
> 
> I do have some suspicion of having had a Jewish maternal gggfather, grandfather of my mtgrandfather. But it is based on shaky suspicions of some masonry on the stone house gate after it burned to the ground, of star of David surrounded by a snake. Also supposedly that side of the family was involved with trade around Turkey/Ottoman empire so who knows. That 15% might be just noise, or there could be something to it.
> 
> I do also somehow score high Baltic Neo for some reason.


There are some Albanian Jews here in Kosovo I think.

----------


## blevins13

> Pse mo _vlla_? oops. Why _bro_? It is clear some of our vocabulary might be of pre IE origin, or maybe even post IE but paleo Balkan sprachbund related ancestry?
> 
> If you can use analysis of Latin and ancient Greek loanwords into Albanian to learn about its history / geolocation when the loans were taken, certainly you can use Romanian and Vlach? I mean... there is whole degrees of study, linguistics appointed to such matters.
> 
> I mean come on, them using _fara_ for _people_ ​has to amuse you at least a little bit no? I find it fascinating. Cause usually words for seed/people are rarely borrowed.
> 
> Edit: Man its obvious I am tired and completely misread what you wrote. You are right, and have the right to be disappointed. Not deleting my lame response for the lol.


No problem bro(vlla)


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----------


## blevins13

> All the Vlach groups are considered to share a common origin and to have split between 900 AD and 14th century. This includes Romanian, Aromanian, Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian etc.


IMG_5499.JPG

I agree with this hypothesis 



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## blevins13

> Based on that, Albanians are not even close to half Slavic.
> 
> On this calculator I have seen some more Southern shifted Albanians not getting any Slavic at all.


Usually from mountains of Laberia Region in the South, Slavic is lacking, but is more common in areas of South east Albanian and low lands.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## lacreme

> This guy from Southern Albania does not get any Slavic
> And apparently his family came from Northern Albania once. 
> 
> Distance to:
> Geni(albanian)
> 
> 5.42313562
> Ancient_Northern_Greek:Greece_MBA_Log02
> 
> ...


Interesting results! He looks like Greek/Italian shifted compared to others, I wonder if it's due to relatively lower Baltic and higher East Med compared to other Albanians (13.52 and 26.22 respectively) .

His K13 coordinates : 

```
Geni(Albanian),23.31,13.52,21.33,11.99,26.22,2.62,0,0.19,0,0.74,0.44,0,0
```

As he has ancestry from the North and having seen the results of a couple of (Catholic ) Gheg ? Albanians who plot almost like completely normal Central Italians from Lazio, one even had R-U152 Ydna haplogroup, I wanted to ask. Is there any historical mention of intermixing of (some) Albanians with Italians maybe during the times of the Venetian republic or even before or after it ? 

BTW my friend's Greek non bio maternal grandfather (with ancestry mostly from a cluster of Achaean villages which supposedly had Arvanite background ) is MORE Albanian shifted compared to him 


```
Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Chris_nonbio_grandpa(Greek)
B: Geni(Albanian)
C: ↴

0.45912895
Torbesh_average

0.46549818
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.52000685
Albanian

0.55018695
Albanian_Gheg

0.62871692
Greek_Northern-Thrace

0.65323511
Macedonian_South

0.65814069
Macedonian

0.66103089
Vlach(Aromanian)_average

0.67206746
Greek_Thessaly

0.68766788
Greek_West

0.69355856
Macedonian_North

0.70099265
Albanian_Tosk

0.70394170
Moldova_South_Gagauzia

0.72401644
Greek_Eastern-Thrace

0.72912410
Bulgaria_Southeastern

0.73300424
Bulgaria_Southcentral

0.74458835
Pomak_Bulgaria

0.75935640
Bulgaria_Northcentral

0.75948627
Bulgaria_average

0.76345652
Greek

0.76613736
Pomak_Greece

0.77257607
Romania_Muntenia

0.77586929
Bulgaria_Northwestern

0.77592844
Romania_Dobruja

0.78009652
Romania_Wallachia



Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
A: Chris_nonbio_grandpa(Greek)
B: Geni(Albanian)
C: ↴

1.94279611
Greek_Western-Thrace

1.92160428
Italian_Marche

1.79995591
Italian

1.78969754
Italian_Romagna

1.78444075
Italian_Lazio

1.77003416
Italian_Umbria

1.58410000
Italian_Abruzzo

1.49808658
Italian_Basilicata

1.48960104
Italian_Molise

1.45178118
Italian_Tuscan

1.38648808
Italian_Apulia

1.37653528
Greek_Andros_Island

1.31745693
Italian_Campania

1.30593191
Italian_Sicily

1.29643328
Greek_Cyclades

1.27453840
Italian_Emilia

1.23754584
Italian_Liguria

1.22593676
French_Corsica

1.19839717
Malta

1.18977241
Italian_Calabria

1.17449425
Moroccan_Jew

1.16001638
Greek_Athens

1.15396093
Sephardic_Jewish

1.14524203
Greek_Ionia

1.14329379
Greek_Symi_Island


```

----------


## Pr0_

Geni is R1b-BY611 as far as I know and he matches Ghegs and other Kosovars from the North. His family came somewhere from the North apparently at one point hundreds of years ago. I think the Albanian average on that calc is more north shifted due to the over representation of Northern Albanians while Tosks clustering more South could be a bottle neck effect also. 

I am closer to the Albanian average but even I get only 22% Slavic on that calc. And I don't necessarily think it's real ancestry. These calculators are made by Slavs and they clearly have an agenda to assign extra Slavic to all people.

----------


## Pr0_

That Catholic Northern Albanian guy you're talking about was from Mirdita. I can tell you his results are very atypical for an Albanian. As is his Y-DNA. You can just compare my results to his results and see who is more typical. I have also seen many other Catholic Northern Albanian results and they are much more like mine or some others, both Muslim and Catholic. He either has some foreign ancestry or he is clearly trolling. The guy has history of being mentally unstable so I wouldn't be surprised. 

Geni's results are much more typical in this case as is his Y-DNA which falls into a typical Albanian cluster.

----------


## Pr0_

Yes, there could of been mixing with Italians but most Albanians I have seen cluster more east compared to Italians. But I actually think I saw some Albanians once who
clustered like Italians but they were Southern Albanians.

----------


## Pr0_

Also, I personally don't see what's so atypical about this guys results ? Even I get 70%+ Ancient Greek despite I cluster more north, only difference is the Slavic. This could be because he clusters more south. Other than that, it is pretty typical results for an Albanian. 

And those Ancient Greeks come at distance of 6 and 7 to me. And he gets one at 5. I have seen many Albanians get these results.

----------


## Pr0_

> IMG_5499.JPG
> 
> I agree with this hypothesis 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum


Yes. I also agree with this one.  :Good Job:

----------


## lacreme

> That Catholic Northern Albanian guy you're talking about was from Mirdita. I can tell you his results are very atypical for an Albanian. As is his Y-DNA. You can just compare my results to his results and see who is more typical. I have also seen many other Catholic Northern Albanian results and they are much more like mine or some others, both Muslim and Catholic. He either has some foreign ancestry or he is clearly trolling. The guy has history of being mentally unstable so I wouldn't be surprised. 
> 
> Geni's results are much more typical in this case as is his Y-DNA which falls into a typical Albanian cluster.


About this Mirdita guy, let's just say I managed to find his kit and his results are not only genuine but a lot of his matches (most of the top matches too ) are Albanians too. One of his top matches, a family member judging by the shared cM, has similar Italian-like results although with a visible Albanian/West Balkans shift.
Very strange... Could be a case of a single or more villages where this phenomenon happened but having taken place so far back in time it is now forgotten. Not something unheard of imho ... Here in Greece for example something similar it is said to have taken place in various islands of the Aegean and the Ionian seas.




> Also, I personally don't see what's so atypical about this guys results ? Even I get 70%+ Ancient Greek despite I cluster more north, only difference is the Slavic. This could be because he clusters more south. Other than that, it is pretty typical results for an Albanian.





> And those Ancient Greeks come at distance of 6 and 7 to me. And he gets one at 5. I have seen many Albanians get these results.




If you mean the R-U152 guy, at least in Eurogenes K13 his values are similar to the Lazio average. Also, his Baltic value is below 10 and his West Med is similar to Central Italians I think. On Eurogenes K15 he has zero East European, only Baltic which I personally have never seen on results from the Balkans. 

Can't comment on the results from the other calcs as I am not very familiar with their categories and the typical ranges

----------


## Pr0_

> About this Mirdita guy, let's just say I managed to find his kit and his results are not only genuine but a lot of his matches (most of the top matches too ) are Albanians too. One of his top matches, a family member judging by the shared cM, has similar Italian-like results although with a visible Albanian/West Balkans shift.
> Very strange... Could be a case of a single or more villages where this phenomenon happened but having taken place so far back in time it is now forgotten. Not something unheard of imho ... Here in Greece for example something similar it is said to have taken place in various islands of the Aegean and the Ionian seas.
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the R-U152 guy, at least in Eurogenes K13 his values are similar to the Lazio average. Also, his Baltic value is below 10 and his West Med is similar to Central Italians I think. On Eurogenes K15 he has zero East European, only Baltic which I personally have never seen on results from the Balkans. 
> 
> Can't comment on the results from the other calcs as I am not very familiar with their categories and the typical ranges


Alright bro, thanks a lot for the information  :Good Job:  

It might be that his results are genuine and there might be Albanians that cluster like that too. We just need more people tested. But we have several
other people from Northern Albania/Malsia/Montenegro such as Kelmendasi, Dibran, Drawing-Slim, Dukagjin, Pjeter_Pan, Alb0zfinest etc who's results are nothing like that guys but more in align with mine and other Albanians. And I have seen many others too from people that are not forum members. 

I have seen diversity when it comes to how north and south people plot, and there is a slight west and east variance but I never thought there would be people that cluster that west. 

Here I tried using the only 2 population function and my Ancient Greek increased


Target: pr0_(albanian)
Distance: 2.6202% / 2.62015942 | R2P

82.1
Ancient_Northern_Greek



17.9
Slavic

----------


## Pr0_

And no I didn't mean the R1U52 guy, I was talking about Geni there.

----------


## lacreme

> Alright bro, thanks a lot for the information  
> 
> It might be that his results are genuine and there might be Albanians that cluster like that too. We just need more people tested. But we have several
> other people from Northern Albania/Malsia/Montenegro such as Kelmendasi, Dibran, Drawing-Slim, Dukagjin, Pjeter_Pan, Alb0zfinest etc who's results are nothing like that guys but more in align with mine and other Albanians. And I have seen many others too from people that are not forum members. 
> 
> I have seen diversity when it comes to how north and south people plot, and there is a slight west and east variance but I never thought there would be people that cluster that west. 
> 
> Here I tried using the only 2 population function and my Ancient Greek increased
> 
> ...


Just found out that he shares segments with my friend's Greek non bio grandfather, 21.5cM total and 12.2cM the largest segment. That's cool I guess. So either he has some Tosk/Southern Albanian heritage in addition to the Northern roots of his family or Ghegs too migrated to that specific part of Peloponnese back in the 14th-15th ? century.

----------


## Francis Drake

> PS: I do not get any Judean or Jewish one FTDNA where I did my autosomal or even Slavic for that matter.
> But a lot of calculators do give me some Jewish results, Asheknazi, even Shepardi. Mostly related to Poland and Estonia on some more specific ones. High PPNL also.
> 
> I do have some suspicion of having had a Jewish maternal gggfather, grandfather of my mtgrandfather. But it is based on shaky suspicions of some masonry on the stone house gate after it burned to the ground, of star of David surrounded by a snake. Also supposedly that side of the family was involved with trade around Turkey/Ottoman empire so who knows. That 15% might be just noise, or there could be something to it.
> 
> I do also somehow score high Baltic Neo for some reason.




That decoration is 99x more likely to be Thraco-Illyrian (esp. Illyrian) in origin rather than jewish, haha.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> About this Mirdita guy, let's just say I managed to find his kit and his results are not only genuine but a lot of his matches (most of the top matches too ) are Albanians too. One of his top matches, a family member judging by the shared cM, has similar Italian-like results although with a visible Albanian/West Balkans shift.
> Very strange... Could be a case of a single or more villages where this phenomenon happened but having taken place so far back in time it is now forgotten. Not something unheard of imho ... Here in Greece for example something similar it is said to have taken place in various islands of the Aegean and the Ionian seas.
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean the R-U152 guy, at least in Eurogenes K13 his values are similar to the Lazio average. Also, his Baltic value is below 10 and his West Med is similar to Central Italians I think. On Eurogenes K15 he has zero East European, only Baltic which I personally have never seen on results from the Balkans. 
> 
> Can't comment on the results from the other calcs as I am not very familiar with their categories and the typical ranges


That is really dope. However intermixing and immigration wise I would assume Mirdita to be the least affected region in all Albanian speaking regions.

I myself get 19% Baltic on K13, and only 10% on K15.
My Baltic is too high for it to have come by a pure Slavic intermediary, as I would have to be 50% Slavic(assuming a Slavic source with 40-50% baltic, some of the highest say in Serbia, to end up 19% Baltic). That is why I think it must be some older source but who knows.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> That decoration is 99x more likely to be Thraco-Illyrian (esp. Illyrian) in origin rather than jewish, haha.


Makes sense, given the cult of the snake, and Star of David like 6 leaf motifs in Illyrian art. As you have seen my autosomal makeup on Anthro, you know I score 15-19% Pre Pottery Neolithic Levant. That is quite a lot of very very old Levantine source based on those calculators.

----------


## Archetype0ne

That is an exceptionally tight fit for me, the last model using K13 Ancient. All those eastern and northern source populations predate Slavic ethnogenesis by 7k to 1k years.

This would have me believe the signal in me/ethnic Albanians is not Slavic rather Eastern. Even the 20%, but then again these models from one to the other contradict themselves. Posted this one due to the 0.77% fit where usually the best models I can get fall around 2.5% distance.

PS: This one population looks cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture
Complete with Scythian Johny Bravo from the Altay mountains  :Laughing: 


Horseman, Pazyryk felt artifact, c.300 BC.

----------


## Bill7

> That is an exceptionally tight fit for me, the last model using K13 Ancient. All those eastern and northern source populations predate Slavic ethnogenesis by 7k to 1k years.
> 
> This would have me believe the signal in me/ethnic Albanians is not Slavic rather Eastern. Even the 20%, but then again these models from one to the other contradict themselves. Posted this one due to the 0.77% fit where usually the best models I can get fall around 2.5% distance.
> 
> PS: This one population looks cool.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture
> Complete with Scythian Johny Bravo from the Altay mountains 
> 
> ...


it would be nice if you could run Greek Albanian and other balkan populations averages using the k13 ancient

----------


## Archetype0ne

> it would be nice if you could run Greek Albanian and other balkan populations averages using the k13 ancient


I would/will try as soon as I find out where to find the averages.

Ps are you aware of this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

CTRL + F Greece.  :Sad 2:  Why... why would they not test Alexanders son and father. If I knew Albanian archeologists had Skenderbegs son or fathers bones I would light a match under their bottoms till they publish, be it Q/N haplogroup or A.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> it would be nice if you could run Greek Albanian and other balkan populations averages using the k13 ancient


I figured out how to do it.
Paste this

Greek,19.35,16.29,20.51,13.35,25.39,3.12,0.24,0.35 ,0.44,0.34,0.35,0.17,0.05
Greek_Andros_Island,19.35,10.61,18.08,15.98,28.96, 4.76,0,0.37,0.54,0.73,0,0.64,0
Greek_Athens,17.98,12.99,21.25,14.22,27.77,3.93,0. 32,0.47,0.29,0.16,0.24,0.14,0.25
Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92, 0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Greek_Caucasus,2.09,2.19,14.56,38.52,36.1,4.13,1.6 4,0.14,0.14,0,0.49,0,0
Greek_Central,17.81,13.51,20.59,14.66,27.30,4.05,0 .60,0.29,0.33,0.42,0.40,0.03,0.01
Greek_Central_Macedonia,18.99,17.79,21.11,12.46,24 .88,2.53,0.36,0.37,0.21,0.55,0.18,0.23,0.19
Greek_Chios,12.26,6.67,20.79,20.21,33.04,5.56,0,0. 58,0.45,0.02,0.19,0.18,0
Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.12,0.27 ,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Greek_Cyclades,17.87,9.96,20.68,15.25,28.66,4.63,0 .10,0.57,0.50,0.54,0.53,0.16,0.08
Greek_Cypriot,5.67,2.81,19.86,20.34,41.08,8.12,0.5 ,0.07,0.23,0,0.47,0.3,0.54
Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.75,6.15 ,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Greek_Eastern-Macedonia,20.66,15.94,21.89,13.13,22.35,4.13,0,0.4 1,0.19,0,0.06,1.25,0
Greek_Eastern-Thrace,16.34,17.89,20.20,13.03,27.42,3.63,0,0,1.02 ,0.31,0.13,0,0
Greek_Ionia,16.28,11.33,20.69,15.75,29.74,4.46,0.0 9,0.62,0.26,0.20,0.36,0.18,0.05
Greek_Istanbul,18.08,15.35,16.12,19.69,26.36,2.59, 0,0,0.53,0.42,0.73,0.13,0
Greek_Macedonia_Thrace,15.23,16.22,18.36,17.97,26. 41,3.56,0.54,0.36,0.58,0,0.53,0.15,0.03
Greek_North_Aegean,14.57,8.12,21.16,16.95,32.41,5. 20,0.62,0.24,0.25,0.07,0.17,0.23,0.02
Greek_Northeast,20.18,16.56,20.31,13.42,24.38,3.47 ,0.20,0.26,0.34,0.53,0.20,0.04,0.10
Greek_Northern-Thrace,19.04,22.53,19.23,12.02,24.12,0,0,0,1.00,0, 1.52,0,0
Greek_Peloponnese,18.68,15.50,20.35,13.16,26.48,3. 48,0.73,0.30,0.30,0.36,0.49,0.16,0.02
Greek_Symi_Island,14.19,2.63,21.63,17.09,35.08,5.8 4,1.17,0.68,0.64,0,0,0.7,0.34
Greek_Thessaly,20.88,16.97,20.47,11.67,24.62,3.45, 0.50,0.40,0.37,0.495,0.30,0.04,0.09
Greek_Trabzon,3.03,2.61,15.35,37.05,36.21,3.91,0.9 5,0.22,0.3,0.04,0.3,0,0.3
Greek_West,19.36,16.49,21.06,12.79,26.50,2.08,0.03 ,0.40,0.26,0.37,0.25,0.07,0.03
Greek_West_Macedonia,20.56,15.60,20.43,13.81,24.46 ,3.48,0.14,0.29,0.43,0.49,0.11,0.22,0
Greek_Western-Thrace,21.88,13.08,22.91,12.65,25.86,1.90,0,1.34,0 ,0.38,0,0,0
Albanian,21.69,17.54,21.72,11.13,23.86,2.59,0.16,0 .28,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.16,0.09
Albanian_Gheg,21.88,18.15,21.86,11.23,22.94,2.61,0 .19,0.24,0.26,0.19,0.26,0.16,0.02
Albanian_Tosk,21.32,16.38,21.46,10.93,25.63,2.55,0 .09,0.34,0.31,0.46,0.14,0.16,0.22

On K13 Ancient Target tab.
Now go on single, click add distance col once, then click run all.
This way I wont have to link 20+ imgur tabs.

I guess the results are not very good for comparative purposes though. I guess there is either problems with the labels of some ancient samples, or the model itself is overfitting for a lower score, being again as I said not very useful for comparative purposes.

But let me know what you think.

----------


## Bill7

> I figured out how to do it.
> Paste this
> 
> Greek,19.35,16.29,20.51,13.35,25.39,3.12,0.24,0.35 ,0.44,0.34,0.35,0.17,0.05
> Greek_Andros_Island,19.35,10.61,18.08,15.98,28.96, 4.76,0,0.37,0.54,0.73,0,0.64,0
> Greek_Athens,17.98,12.99,21.25,14.22,27.77,3.93,0. 32,0.47,0.29,0.16,0.24,0.14,0.25
> Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92, 0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
> Greek_Caucasus,2.09,2.19,14.56,38.52,36.1,4.13,1.6 4,0.14,0.14,0,0.49,0,0
> Greek_Central,17.81,13.51,20.59,14.66,27.30,4.05,0 .60,0.29,0.33,0.42,0.40,0.03,0.01
> ...


thanks archetype I appreciate it I'm gonna run some models when I have more spare time

----------


## Ralphie Boy

Did some math on estimated number of ancestors going back for certain numbers of generations, using the one family line I know the most about, just for a very rough idea. In the mid 1400’s I had more or less 33,000 ancestors. The farthest back I can go in genealogical tracing is the late 1700’s. I wonder if anyone has a rough idea or educated guess of the percentage of ancestors living in the Peloponnese or south Balkans 600 years ago, or even in the 1600’s. 

One may assume that a significant or substantial percentage of modern Peloponnesians had ancestors living there or somewhere in the south Balkans around the time of Ottoman conquest (the rest coming later with Venetians, Turks, et al.).

In 1,100 I had let’s say 33 million ancestors, based on the very rough estimate. What percentage of ancestors lived south of the Jirecek line at that time? One can assume again it’s significant or substantial.

Going back to 900 AD, that’s many, many ancestors for all of us. One would think that even at this time, modern Peloponnesians would have had a big percentage of ancestors living south of the Jirecek line.

With numbers like these, we can see how laughable the ethnic purity concept is. It’s hard to see how someone misses having at least some admixture with people of the region, when it comes to so many ancestors living there for so long.

----------


## ihype02

> Did some math on estimated number of ancestors going back for certain numbers of generations, using the one family line I know the most about, just for a very rough idea. In the mid 1400’s I had more or less 33,000 ancestors. The farthest back I can go in genealogical tracing is the late 1700’s. I wonder if anyone has a rough idea or educated guess of the percentage of ancestors living in the Peloponnese or south Balkans 600 years ago, or even in the 1600’s. One may assume that a significant or substantial percentage of modern Peloponnesians had ancestors living there or somewhere in the south Balkans around the time of Ottoman conquest (the rest coming later with Venetians, Turks, et al.).In 1,100 I had let’s say 33 million ancestors, based on the very rough estimate. What percentage of ancestors lived south of the Jirecek line at that time? One can assume again it’s significant or substantial.Going back to 900 AD, that’s many, many ancestors for all of us. One would think that even at this time, modern Peloponnesians would have had a big percentage of ancestors living south of the Jirecek line.With numbers like these, we can see how laughable the ethnic purity concept is. It’s hard to see how someone misses having at least some admixture with people of the region, when it comes to so many ancestors living there for so long.


You don't have 33 million ancestors in 1100.The number of ancestors does not increase exponentially plus 2^n for every generations in the past because when you go far back enough, many of your ancestors have common ancestors too among them. This is how Pedigree Collaspe looks like this:  Simply take in account the isolated Australian Aborigines.

----------


## Ralphie Boy

> You don't have 33 million ancestors in 1100.The number of ancestors does not increase exponentially plus 2^n for every generations in the past because when you go far back enough, many of your ancestors have common ancestors too among them. This is how Pedigree Collaspe looks like this: Simply take in account the isolated Australian Aborigines.


It seemed very strange to me, all those ancestors, and I never heard of pedigree collapse. I looked up pedigree collapse rates and didn’t immediately find any specific estimates per population. Can anyone estimate those rates with any confidence?

----------


## Akritas

Maybe I'm stepping right in a deep discussion but I got some results with Peloponnesos that Im confused about.

Target: DimitriosAnastasiadis_scaled (100 iterations, 255,970 models generated in 0.15 s)
1 0.017 61% Turkish_Trabzon + 39% Greek_South_Tsakonia
2 0.018 58% Greek_Trabzon + 42% Greek_South_Tsakonia
3 0.019 52% Greek_Deep_Mani + 48% Armenian_Hemsheni
4 0.019 51% Armenian_Hemsheni + 49% Greek_South_Tsakonia
5 0.019 70% Greek_Kos + 30% Georgian_Ajar
6 0.020 92% Greek_Central_Anatolia + 8% Bulgarian
7 0.021 51% Greek_South_Tsakonia + 49% Georgian_Laz
8 0.021 59% Greek_Crete + 41% Georgian_Laz
9 0.021 84% Greek_Cappadocia + 16% Rumelia_East
10 0.022 51% Italian_Campania + 49% Georgian_Laz
11 0.022 53% Italian_Calabria + 47% Georgian_Laz
12 0.022 51% Italian_Basilicata + 49% Georgian_Laz
13 0.022 50% Georgian_Laz + 50% Italian_Apulia
14 0.022 69% Greek_Dodecanese + 31% Georgian_Ajar
15 0.022 50% Italian_Apulia + 50% Georgian_Samtckhe
16 0.023 51% Greek_Izmir + 49% Georgian_Samtckhe
17 0.024 62% Armenian_Urfa + 38% Greek_Argolis
18 0.024 66% Armenian_Gesaria + 34% Greek_Corinthia
19 0.024 52% Georgian_Samtckhe + 48% Greek_North_Tsakonia
20 0.024 63% Armenian_Aintab + 37% Greek_Argolis
21 0.025 57% Georgian_Meskheti + 43% Greek_North_Tsakonia
22 0.025 78% Armenian_Syunik + 22% Sardinian
23 0.026 62% Armenian_Erzurum + 38% Greek_Corinthia
24 0.027 73% Ahiska + 27% Sardinian
25 0.027 72% Georgian_Kakh + 28% Sardinian
26 0.027 54% Italian_Abruzzo + 46% Georgian_Ajar
27 0.027 55% Sicilian_East + 45% Georgian_Ajar
28 0.027 56% Ashkenazi_Germany + 44% Georgian_Ajar
29 0.027 55% Greek_North_Tsakonia + 45% Georgian_Ajar
30 0.028 55% Italian_Molise + 45% Georgian_Ajar
31 0.028 53% Greek_Laconia + 47% Georgian_Ajar
32 0.028 52% Greek_Corinthia + 48% Georgian_Ajar
33 0.028 71% Georgian_Kart + 29% Sardinian
34 0.028 52% Greek_Argolis + 48% Georgian_Ajar
35 0.028 55% Italian_Jew + 45% Georgian_Ajar
36 0.028 53% Greek_East_Taygetos + 47% Georgian_Ajar
37 0.029 50% Georgian_Ajar + 50% Italian_Lazio
38 0.029 70% Cypriot + 30% Adygei
39 0.029 70% Georgian_Javakheti + 30% Sardinian
40 0.030 56% Greek_Peloponnese + 44% Georgian_Ratcha
41 0.031 62% Romaniote_Jew + 38% Georgian_West
42 0.031 56% Greek_Arcadia + 44% Georgian_Ratcha
43 0.031 55% Italian_Lazio + 45% Georgian_Ratcha
44 0.031 56% Greek_Achaea + 44% Georgian_Ratcha
45 0.031 75% Udi + 25% Sardinian
46 0.031 57% Greek_Elis + 43% Georgian_Ratcha
47 0.031 61% Ashkenazi_Lithuania + 39% Georgian_West
48 0.031 62% Ashkenazi_Belarussia + 38% Georgian_Ratcha
49 0.031 56% Sicilian_West + 44% Georgian_Ratcha
50 0.031 60% Ashkenazi_Poland + 40% Georgian_West
51 0.032 57% Assyrian + 43% Greek_Messenia
52 0.032 56% Greek_Messenia + 44% Georgian_Ratcha
53 0.032 55% Italian_Umbria + 45% Georgian_Ratcha
54 0.032 55% Italian_Marche + 45% Georgian_Ratcha
55 0.032 60% Ashkenazi_Russia + 40% Georgian_West
56 0.032 64% Georgian_Jew + 36% Albanian
57 0.032 61% Sephardic_Jew_o + 39% Georgian_West
58 0.033 58% Ashkenazi_Ukraine + 42% Georgian_West
59 0.033 55% Maltese + 45% Georgian_West
60 0.033 59% Sephardic_Jew + 41% Georgian_West
61 0.034 55% Greek_West_Taygetos + 45% Georgian_Ratcha
62 0.034 53% Georgian_Ratcha + 47% French_Corsica
63 0.034 58% Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o + 42% Georgian_West
64 0.035 76% Turkish_East + 24% Sardinian
65 0.035 54% Kurdish_Jew + 46% Rumelia_East
66 0.035 66% Georgian_Imer + 34% Sardinian
67 0.036 55% Iraqi_Jew + 45% Rumelia_East
68 0.036 55% Georgian_Guria + 45% French_Corsica
69 0.036 67% Georgian_Lechkhumi + 33% Sardinian
70 0.036 66% Georgian_West + 34% Sardinian
71 0.037 59% Mountain_Jew + 41% Albanian
72 0.038 65% Georgian_Megr + 35% Sardinian
73 0.038 55% Iranian_Jew + 45% Rumelia_East
74 0.039 67% Talysh_Azerbaijan + 33% Sardinian
75 0.039 66% Abkhasian + 34% Sardinian
76 0.039 62% Druze + 38% Rumelia_East
77 0.040 60% Lebanese_Christian + 40% Adygei
78 0.040 60% Mountain_Jew_o + 40% Rumelia_East
79 0.040 67% Georgian_Khevs + 33% Sardinian
80 0.040 61% Lebanese_Druze + 39% Rumelia_East
81 0.040 67% Syrian_Jew + 33% Abkhasian_Gudauta
82 0.040 67% Georgian_NorthEast + 33% Sardinian
83 0.040 69% Kurdish + 31% Sardinian
84 0.041 63% Georgian_Svaneti + 37% Sardinian
85 0.042 65% Abkhasian_Gudauta + 35% Sardinian
86 0.042 56% Palestinian_Beit_Sahour + 44% Adygei
87 0.042 66% Georgian_Mtiuleti + 34% Sardinian
88 0.042 68% Georgian_Tush + 32% Sardinian
89 0.043 79% Turkish_Kayseri + 21% Sardinian
90 0.044 70% Ezid + 30% Sardinian
91 0.044 54% Bukharian_Jew + 46% Greek_Thessaly
92 0.044 58% Lebanese_Muslim + 42% Rumelia_East
93 0.045 50% Adygei + 50% Samaritan
94 0.045 57% Karaite_Egypt + 43% Rumelia_East
95 0.046 70% Azerbaijani_Turkey + 30% Sardinian
96 0.046 65% Iranian_Lor + 35% Sardinian
97 0.047 68% Azerbaijani + 32% Sardinian
98 0.047 58% Iranian_Mazandarani + 42% Sardinian
99 0.047 55% Rumelia_East + 45% Samaritan
100 0.047 67% Azerbaijani_Dagestan + 33% Sardinian

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