# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Is there any difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania?

## Eldritch

Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
How it's this?

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## MOESAN

surely there was some differences between Ghegs and Tosks yet? on the phenotypical side there are differences not of nature but of distributions of some features (Ghegs more "dinaric "and "nordic" as a whole, with a so called "atlanto-mediterranean" strain, Toscs more "alpine" - even if none of these criterias matche very well, surely there could be differences about DNA-Y, DNA-mt and autosomals but I have no analysis about Albanians - maybe Ksovoars are closer to Ghegs?

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## Eldritch

> surely there was some differences between Ghegs and Tosks yet? on the phenotypical side there are differences not of nature but of distributions of some features (Ghegs more "dinaric "and "nordic" as a whole, with a so called "atlanto-mediterranean" strain, Toscs more "alpine" - even if none of these criterias matche very well, surely there could be differences about DNA-Y, DNA-mt and autosomals but I have no analysis about Albanians - maybe Ksovoars are closer to Ghegs?


Well Kosovars apparently are Ghegs.

Tosks are the one that show a higher presence of Slavic Haplogroups though.

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## julia90

here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included


Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania

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## Eldritch

> here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included
> 
> 
> Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania


Yeah but i can't explain how Kosovars can be more Eastern since they have no Slavic haplogroups.
I can see why they would be more north(High I1 and I2b percentage)

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## ciccogol

The Swiss, always so damn neutral and centrist, even in their genetics...

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## ElHorsto

> here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included
> 
> 
> Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania


Something is wrong with that map, at least regarding Slovakia (SK).

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## MOESAN

> The Swiss, always so damn neutral and centrist, even in their genetics...


_in the middle yes but very mixed - Switzerland shows very variated and astonishing phenotypes (not too rarely -> someones with indo-afghan connexions and other a little 'finn'! it is funny for a so little mountainous land ..._

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## FBS

> Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
> How it's this?


I will try to give you some answers:

You should probably read about the history of the Gheg and Tosk Albanians, it gives a lot of information to your question. Slavic admixture in Albania could have happened during the Hoxhas time, but it could have happened in the 7th century AD as well (invasion of Slavs in the south all the way down to the Peloponnese).

Regarding Gheg speakers, they were historically in constant struggle with Slavs, therefore tried to avoid mixed marriages. Even when this happened those marriages were not accepted by the Gheg community and usually the children became Serb or Montenegrin. I have my close relatives (three of them) who have been assimilated into Serbs by marriage. While, for example, Croatian & German ladies never had a problem to get integrated. 

Ghegs are the north Albanians that are spread in Kosova, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia. This is a good map (from wikipedia) showing the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk:

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## zanipolo

> I will try to give you some answers:
> 
> You should probably read about the history of the Gheg and Tosk Albanians, it gives a lot of information to your question. Slavic admixture in Albania could have happened during the Hoxhas time, but it could have happened in the 7th century AD as well (invasion of Slavs in the south all the way down to the Peloponnese).
> 
> Regarding Gheg speakers, they were historically in constant struggle with Slavs, therefore tried to avoid mixed marriages. Even when this happened those marriages were not accepted by the Gheg community and usually the children became Serb or Montenegrin. I have my close relatives (three of them) who have been assimilated into Serbs by marriage. While, for example, Croatian & German ladies never had a problem to get integrated. 
> 
> Ghegs are the north Albanians that are spread in Kosova, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia. This is a good map (from wikipedia) showing the distribution of the Gheg and Tosk:


i find the map amazing in the sense it shows the southern illyrian border (( drin river) , around 360BC )with the start of the northern albanian languages. more proof that albanian are not historically illyrian.

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## Dianatomia

> here i found the only genetic autosomal map where both alabanians from albania and albanians from kossovo were included
> 
> 
> Albanians from Kossovo seem more northern and eastern europeans than albanians from albania


Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately. 

The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply. 

It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - _When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were_ _Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.
_
So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.

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## Endri

> Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately. 
> 
> The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply.


So let me see if I understand this right. At some point there were Greek descendants, under the Greek sphere of influence that considered themselves not Greek? Am i right? Well that seems legitimate...




> It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - _When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were_ _Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others._


_
_
This is sensless. If you would know even a bit about the History of Albania you would know that if those figures were true the Albania we all know today would be much much smaller. Albania had no political, economical or any sort of power in 1912 and you're tryin' to make us believe that with ~15% or more Slav population in Albania, XX century nationalist Serbia who was desperately in search of new territory just let it go like nothing happened and allowed over 100.000 Serbs to be assimilated? That doesn't make sense, does it?

Furthermore it has only passed 100 years from Albanian independence, so whats that? 3-4 generations? So you're statement and this Dr. implies that these 20% Vlach and 15% Slav got assimilated within ~25 years (1912-1939). Is that even possible?

Andguy, so called Dr. is not an albanologist rather a charlatan of the opposite direction, trying to make this sort of claims to sell his books, more like the that other guy Yetos mentions all the time...

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## Dianatomia

> So let me see if I understand this right. At some point there were Greek descendants, under the Greek sphere of influence that considered themselves not Greek? Am i right? Well that seems legitimate...


In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers. 
_
_



> This is sensless. If you would know even a bit about the History of Albania you would know that if those figures were true the Albania we all know today would be much much smaller. Albania had no political, economical or any sort of power in 1912 and you're tryin' to make us believe that with ~15% or more Slav population in Albania, XX century nationalist Serbia who was desperately in search of new territory just let it go like nothing happened and allowed over 100.000 Serbs to be assimilated? That doesn't make sense, does it?
> Furthermore it has only passed 100 years from Albanian independence, so whats that? 3-4 generations? So you're statement and this Dr. implies that these 20% Vlach and 15% Slav got assimilated within ~25 years (1912-1939). Is that even possible?


Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
http://imbeurope.org/embracepdf/prof...hinalbania.pdf 

So by today's accounts we can find a total of more than 500.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs in Albania. That's 18% of the total population. While according to the Albanologist that number was up to 40% procent a century ago. Definately not an impossibility considering Albania's history. That said, even if it as overstatement, it is a clear indication that Albania is not a homogenous country.

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## Endri

> In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers.


 _
_Just to make clear. When I say Greek I do not mean a native whom from Greek influence at that time might have considered himself Greek, but I doubt Greeks considered him Greek. 

The Greek colonies might have had a "ethnic" Greek majority at the time they were founded but these cities reached populations of 40-50.000 or more. Apolonia at the first century AD had more than 60.000 inhabitants. If you're trying to tell me that these 60.000 were all Greeks from Corinth, taking in count the Roman Empire and the ease that people at that time had to move from one city to another within the Roman Empire, well i'll be surprised...

Vlachs, Greeks, Spaniards, southern Italians, southern Albanians and mediteranean persons more or less look the same which, as far as I understand means similar ancestry, way before the creation of a Greek identity or things like that. Is like saying that E-V13 belongs to a certain ethnic group...




> Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
> http://imbeurope.org/embracepdf/profiles/vlachinalbania.pdf


 

They have been but not in Albania, at least not after 1912, and especially not between 1912-1944. Albanian history after 1912 is very well documented and if such assimilation have happened during the time Albania barely had a state well then you sure have a vivid imagination. 

200,000 Vlachs would mean ~20% of Albanian pop. If there were 200.000 Vlachs I would know since I live in a area where they should live. But the Vlach problem is not Albania or the Albanians but the Greek Gov. Pretty much every Vlach outside Korca considers says his Greek so you can't count the same person Vlach and Greek (this is not for discussion as are blatant proves). 

About Bulgarians, if they were 100.000 or ~10% I would have heard of them again. Cause with these % both Vlachs and Bulgarians would have had a considerable part of the Albanian Parliment. Unfortunately or not the reality is that they aren't even more that an exaggerated 5.000 and these do not know what they are. Same family, one son declares he is Bulgarian and the other Macedonian. They're pretty undecided.

And the Serb or Montenegrin numbers are still way exaggerated. Reality? I would be surprised if they even are more than 3.000. You should just look the map on wikipedia where the Serb community should live. You really think that area there with mountains over 2000m can hold 30.000 people? Really?




> So by today's accounts we can find a total of more than 500.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Bulgarians and Serbs in Albania. That's 18% of the total population. While according to the Albanologist that number was up to 40% procent a century ago. Definately not an impossibility considering Albania's history. That said, even if it as overstatement, it is a clear indication that Albania is not a homogenous country.


Yea, sure. As the census expectation each country had about the census in Albanian. If you would amount their expectations in Albanian should live 2.100.000 Greeks, Vlachs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bulgarians and some other nationalities out of a total of 2.800.000. Sure...

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## Dianatomia

I double posted. See below.

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## Dianatomia

> _
> _Just to make clear. When I say Greek I do not mean a native whom from Greek influence at that time might have considered himself Greek, but I doubt Greeks considered him Greek. 
> 
> The Greek colonies might have had a "ethnic" Greek majority at the time they were founded but these cities reached populations of 40-50.000 or more. Apolonia at the first century AD had more than 60.000 inhabitants. If you're trying to tell me that these 60.000 were all Greeks from Corinth, taking in count the Roman Empire and the ease that people at that time had to move from one city to another within the Roman Empire, well i'll be surprised...Vlachs, Greeks, Spaniards, southern Italians, southern Albanians and mediteranean persons more or less look the same which, as far as I understand means similar ancestry, way before the creation of a Greek identity or things like that. Is like saying that E-V13 belongs to a certain ethnic group...


It is very likely that these Greek colonies, once they flurished, attracted a lot of locals. But the question is, how can we classify these locals. You mention 'ethnic' Greeks in Apolonia. I'm guessing that you mean that there were many Hellenised people among them. Well sure, but the Greeks from Corinth who hellenised them where Hellenized at some point also. 

And my point is that South Albanians and Greeks are not identical like say Greeks and Spaniards are. They just look alike to the untrained eye, but are considerably different. Greeks and Albanians however are practically overlapping genetically. Moreover, Souths Albanians are closer to Greeks than to Kosovars. Actually, according to the chart in earlier posts, Albanians in general are much closer to Greeks than Kosovars. So we are talking about a fair amount of genetic diversity among Albanians who only occupy a relatively small space. 

All things considered, and taking into account that Albania was not very densely populated historically (up to 200.000 people lived in Albania up to the year 1600). We could argue that genetically the Greeks, due to ancient and medieval population movements and historical occurences may have influenced the Albanians (especially the Tosks) considerably even though they were very similar to begin with. 

The problem is that Albanian history is not well documented before the 20th century.

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## wormhole

Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.

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## Dianatomia

> Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.


The Gheghs are quite different from Southern Italians/Greeks.

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## Eldritch

> Albanians are pretty much Southern Italians/Greeks.


Actually not. Albanians are an isolated group in the general Balkan cluster.

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## Beast

Albanians are not closer to greeks. Albanians in Albania are closer to Kosovar Albanians. J2 is high among South-Albanians, it's also found as the 3rd highest in Kosovo Albanians. Only difference is Albanians in Albania seem to of mixed with Slavs compared to Kosovar Albanians.

Besides Albanians are also in Montenegro and Macedonia. 

You are saying that South-Albanians are Greek Epirotes. Well, when you think of Epirus you are thinking of a little region in South-Albania and North-west Greece. Epirus was at one point much larger all the way up to Central-Albania.

And you are saying somehow these Greek Epirots became Albanians. Not sure if serious. This was during the Ottoman Empire. doesn't even make sense how they could of become Albanians, I think the opposite happened, Albanians of Orthodox greek religion became Greeks and helped Greeks in the Greek war against Ottomans.

In the Book of Marin Barleti he calls his people, the people living in Kosovo, Macedonia and todays Albania for Epirots. He mentions how Epirots from Dibra came to help Skanderbeg. If Epirots are Greeks since when did Greeks live in Diber or Kosovo? This was called the league of lezhe. Marin Barleti claimed these people (his people) descendant from Epirots.these people are clearly Albanians (Arbereshe), but this war was at a point a nationalistic war where Arbereshe started identifying with their ancestry so they called themselves Epirots. This is why you have Skanderbeg claiming ancestry from Epirots in a letter. But Greeks see this as him being Greek. if he was Greek clearly all Albanians must be Greek too since they all in the middle ages actually did identify as Epirots. He called the region of Albania and Kosovo as Epirus. It was at one point by Albanians called Arberia. They all claimed also ancestry from ancient-macedonians.

Claiming that all south-Albanians at one point where ''Greeks'' just doesn't make sense.. since it's the opposite that totally happened. Greeks didn't become Albanians,South-Albanians became Greeks due to their Greek Orthodox religion (SEE: Arvanite) also a fine greek documentary on youtube about this and South Albanians playing part in Greek indpendence war. And if I must remind you neither Barleti or Skanderbeg were South-Albanians. They were both Gegs from Kruje. 

Catholic was synonom with being Italian, a latin. Greek Orthodox was synonom with being a Greek. and Muslim was with being a Turk. Some of the Greek Orthodox Albanians were called Greeks by writers at that time even though they weren't. So this is how it happened that Albanians, the Arvanite, (which actually is a greek word for Albanian (today it's Alvanus). just like the turkish word Arnaut for Albanians) assimilated with Greeks.

As for the Arbereshe in Italy can you show me the genetic tests that were done on them? Where did you get that they were high I2a? There are Arbereshe in Ukraine too that moved there during 15th and 16th century. and they don't use the word Arbereshe anymore, they call themselves Shqiptar. if you search on youtube: Shqiptaret ne Ukraine. you can find it. Also the I2a in north Albanians comes from Intermarriages with Montenigrins through time. They shared the same Catholic religion as them.

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## kamani

Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J 
Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5 
Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8 
Albanians Kosova	IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5

I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia. 
I have organised this by haplogroups: 
R1b (west european) - Kosovars have the highest percentage of this, followed by Albanians. This goes 
along with the idea that they descend from the Illyrians and the Illyrians were non-slavic 
tribes from the west/north. The serbs have the lowest of this haplogroup which follows along 
with their slavic eastern background. The surprise is the turks which show a high percentage of
this gene, somehow the turks have more west-european genes than most people think. So far, 
albanians are closer to kosovars than to greeks.

R1a (east-european, slavic) - In this group the albanians are closer to the greeks than to kosovars.

I (latin, german) - In this group the albanians are closer to greeks than to kosovars. 

E1b1b (north-west african, phoenician, pelasgian) - In this group albanians are closer to the greeks. However, these numbers are
quite surprising to me; it seems the greeks are more pelasgian than the albanians but the kosovars are more pelasgian than the greeks.

J (babylonian, arabic) - The turks by a large distance score the highest on this one, since they're closer to mesopotamia. As far as our question goes,
this is a tie, the distance albanian-kosovar is the same as the distance albanian-greek. What is surprising is that the greeks are again
in the middle, meaning greeks are more babylonian than kosovars but albanians are more babylonian than greeks. 

Based on this analysis the albanians, kosovars, and greeks are very homogenous populations. If we take out the language barriers, from a world perspective 
genetically they could be considered the same people. Historically this goes along with the fact that for at least a thousand years these people were the 
backbone of the byzantine empire. 
A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian, 
especially in the north and west greece.

Another idea shown from this data is that the serbs are heavily mixed with pre-slavic groups in the balkans. They seem to be genetically closer to albanians
than to greeks or turks. This goes along with history and geography. However they still maintain their differences shown by the large percentages of R1a and I haplogroups. 

As an endnote, these differences are extremely trivial if we compare the above populations with people from other race groups. In fact europe has by far the most homogenous population of all contine

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## Dianatomia

> A more plausible and modern argument is that a large percentage of today's greeks were actually albanian in 1832, when greece declared its indipendence from
> turkey. This goes along with historic records showing that when greece declared its indipendence, 40-50% of its population was speaking albanian, 
> especially in the north and west greece.


Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose. 

Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...explained.html

The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".

It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.

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## Yetos

> Population Language Family[1] R1b R1a I E1b1b J 
> Albanians IE (Albanian) 17.6 9.8 19.6 21.6 23.5 
> Serbs IE (Slavic, South) 10.6 15.9 36.3 21.2 8 
> Albanians Kosova IE (Albanian) 21.1 4.4 7.9 47.4 16.7
> Greeks IE (Greek) 13.5 11.1 15.8 31.6 19.9
> Turks Altaic (Turkic) 20.3 11.9 6.8 13.6 30.5
> 
> I am no dna expert and tracing origins is very complex, but this is my educated belief based on the above data from wikipedia. 
> I have organised this by haplogroups: 
> ...


some of your thoughts and number areincorrect, 

for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists, 
R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!! 
Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b 
so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.

the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome, 

the population you mention as 50% of Greece at 1820 is tottaly wrong, 
Albanian population was limited where Latin rulers allow it around Athens Theba and some areas in Morea estimated about 150 000 at 1991 from which about 1/3 are Aromani from Albania (Latin speakers-Vlachs) (every ten years population statistics), 
especially Northen Greece was not speaking Albanian but Slavomakedonian as third language after Greek and Turkish, Albanians in North Greece lived in the same villages with Turks almost sharing same temples and serve as soldiers of Ottomans. the fights among Greeks and Albanians in North Greece are mention even today, especially in the mountains.
Greek colonisation in Albania is ancient and from history we learn that unite with Illyrians to the mountains so it is difficult to distinguish which is who since same population that colonise until Durress and Lissos. almost the same population return after the liberty of Greece from Ottomans.

a good example to understand 1821 is to find the story of 2 man, Ανδρουτσος and Διακος, Andruzzo (Italian name) Diakos, who grow them up, who was their stepfather and who learn them to fight.

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## kamani

> Albanians settled in very specidic places in Greece and by no account could they have reached remotely close to the numbers you propose. 
> 
> Here is a genetic research which sheds some light on the origin of some haplogroups in Albanians:
> 
> 
> The conclusion from this research is basicly that the haplogroups in Albanians and Greeks are more diverse in Greeks which are also found in Calabrians (colonised by Greeks prior to 1000 AD). Hence Albanians are to a great degree descendants of Greek colonisers and/or in any case "have markers which proliferated among Greeks and spread from there".
> 
> It is also interesting to read the comments were this is more thoroughly explained.


Claiming that albanians descend from the greeks is quite a statement. Especially since there has been no formal country named greece between 27 BC and 1835 AD. Do you have any scientific papers that support this conclusion? The link that you gave is just an anonymous blog post.

----------


## kamani

> some of your thoughts and number areincorrect, 
> 
> for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists, 
> R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!! 
> Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b 
> so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.
> 
> the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome, 
> 
> ...



In my opinion both albanians and greek genes show traces of slavization through R1a (although greeks appear to be slightly more slavicized). 
This is because R1a is found in high percentages in slavic populations; especially in russia, poland, and ukraine (60%, 56%, and 54% respectively). 
This goes along with the fact that the bulgarian empire included half of albania and greece for at least 200 years in the 9-th and 10-th century.

What sources are you using when saying: "Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b".
Through my limited research I have not been able to find this information online.

The topic of greek indipendence in the 1800-s is also quite interesting considering that a large number of the heroes that fought for it were christian albanians (example Marko Botsaris the leader of Suli).
I agree with you that a great number of the villains were also muslim albanians (ex. Ali Pasha, Omer Vrioni etc). However these figures were not just against the greeks, they were primarily against the christian albanians, which was a persecuted group in the ottoman empire. For example Ali pasha (1740-1822), forcefully converted to islam a large number of villages in southern albania. And even Ali pasha near the end of his reign, allied with the albanian christians and the greeks against the turks. Then the turks finally killed him and send his head as a trophy in Instanbul.
Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.

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## zanipolo

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

from 2010

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## Yetos

> In my opinion both albanians and greek genes show traces of slavization through R1a (although greeks appear to be slightly more slavicized). 
> This is because R1a is found in high percentages in slavic populations; especially in russia, poland, and ukraine (60%, 56%, and 54% respectively). 
> This goes along with the fact that the bulgarian empire included half of albania and greece for at least 200 years in the 9-th and 10-th century.
> 
> What sources are you using when saying: "Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b".
> Through my limited research I have not been able to find this information online.
> 
> The topic of greek indipendence in the 1800-s is also quite interesting considering that a large number of the heroes that fought for it were christian albanians (example Marko Botsaris the leader of Suli).
> I agree with you that a great number of the villains were also muslim albanians (ex. Ali Pasha, Omer Vrioni etc). However these figures were not just against the greeks, they were primarily against the christian albanians, which was a persecuted group in the ottoman empire. For example Ali pasha (1740-1822), forcefully converted to islam a large number of villages in southern albania. And even Ali pasha near the end of his reign, allied with the albanian christians and the greeks against the turks. Then the turks finally killed him and send his head as a trophy in Instanbul.
> Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.


same with Argyrokastron Gjirokaster, historically Greeks supported the Pasha there much more than Albanians, that is why I speak about a confused situation from Apollonia Pogiani to Arta. population there divided more with personal feelings and religion than by blood, cause blood was already mixed from ancient times colonisation.

the R1a is a paradox, South Slavs except Croatia have lower R1a than Greece, so do you find correct the R1a in Greece to be slavic entrance at 600 AD? if yes why they manage to slavicize Serbia Bulgaria Bosnia Kossovo and not Greece, just think that R1a enter Balkans at 600 Ad and in 1 century slavicize from Donav to outside thessaloniki so to become Greek speakers after that? I repeat south Slavic countries have lower R1a. 
besides the existance of R1a in south Italy Sarendo in Dorian colonies fits with Trikke (homeland of Dorians) area where R1a is high est 18%-24% so probably that R1a split from Northern R1a around 3500-3000 BC, 
the truth is that Slavs manage even reach Peloponese since we find some Slavic toponymes there, and for your information some Arbanites have Slavic names.

I think you did not search for the names I gave, 
Andruzzo was an Arbanitan whose godfather and mentor and almost stepfather was a Greek who served russian navy as Admiral Κατσωνης. 
Diakos was a Greek who's mentor was an ex-monk Τsam-kalogeros (Cam)

Now the case of Suli and Botsari is also complex, since villages have name of Arbanites Greek Slavs etc, 
Paliokatunta the village of Botsari has a greek and and an italo-Arbanitan component, 
Palio is Greek and means old 
Katunta Κατουντα) is Italo-Arbanitan word for Village
Tsekoyri is a Serb word for axe and one village has that name. 
so the effort to make Suliotes as Albanians is wrong cause they were more races among them Arbanites, Greeks Serbs (Slavs) Armanesti etc
the language of Botsari as written in his letters and the lexicon that exists in Paris is a complex cause mainly uses Greek syntax but major Vocabulary is old Albanian and then Greek, Italo-Latin (Vlach) and also some numbered Slavic(Serbian) words

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## Dianatomia

> Claiming that albanians descend from the greeks is quite a statement. Especially since there has been no formal country named greece between 27 BC and 1835 AD. Do you have any scientific papers that support this conclusion? The link that you gave is just an anonymous blog post.


Greece, like all modern countries, is a political invention. That doesn't mean that there were no Greek peoples before the Greek state. This is what is revelant here. 

That said, Albania is a political invention too, and the ethnogenesis of the Albanians is historically far more obscure and uncertain than that of the Greeks.

I never said that the Albanians as a whole are descendants of Greeks. I am saying that some regions of what is now Albania are influenced by Greeks or by people who came from 'Greece' and did not call themselves Greeks yet. I think that genetically there are many indications to one or both of the above claims are valid.

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## kamani

To zanipolo:
what study is your data from?

----------


## MOESAN

what a beautiful game! I see Balkans region is still very alive concerning nationality and frontiers!
If I can temperate the discussion, I 'd say that here we have concerning genetics enough stuff to calmy discuss - It's clear that Albania is not a level population: the differences between Kosovards and Tosks are big enough, I'd say - 
as a whole, and it is confirmed by metrics, I'd bet Tosks are close enough, not to all Greece regions, but to Epirus - the Kosovars (and surely enough Ghegs) seam mor 'central' in Balkans, and they show the maximum of Y-E1b-V13 of the world if I don't mistake - I suppose they are the more 'genuine' Albanians that colinize the maritime territories of S-Adriatic Sea north of Greece and south the previous Illyrian territories - linguistic seams telling us 'albanian' is a firstable E-Balkans (Carpathian?) , not W-Balkan language, and I believe the Y-E1b component arrived (when? meso?neolithic?) through South was occupying the central Balkans (I 've not the the rivers net before my eyes to look at), jammed between autochtonous populations (E & W: Y-I2a?) at high density, and not erased by neolithic populations (Y-G2? Y-J2b ? not J2a) if they were more erased by subsequent historic events - I suppose Albanians ancestors did way to Adriatic form farther in E-Balkans-S-Carpathians at some point of history and they got more Y-E1b on their way (maybe they have yet, but it is not sure at all) - arrived on Adriatic shores, north of Epirus, they mixed with previous populations closer to NW Greeks of Greece - (hellenized people, surely enough) -
it would be interesting to have NW Greece autosomals and deeply studied mtDNA to compare to Tosks: a global "ethnic" group is very often without value for ancient History -

a thought of mine: the actual ethnic sketche of Balkans lands is an ever make again patchwork of ancient friends and enemies and if I respect the "ethnic" sentiments I'm doubtful when I see people having all of them some recent enough common blood (compared to protohistoric times, and partially only, it's true) trying to extract some definite truth from a so inextricate history

----------


## kamani

> Greece, like all modern countries, is a political invention. That doesn't mean that there were no Greek peoples before the Greek state. This is what is revelant here. 
> 
> That said, Albania is a political invention too, and the ethnogenesis of the Albanians is historically far more obscure and uncertain than that of the Greeks.
> 
> I never said that the Albanians as a whole are descendants of Greeks. I am saying that some regions of what is now Albania are influenced by Greeks or by people who came from 'Greece' and did not call themselves Greeks yet. I think that genetically there are many indications to one or both of the above claims are valid.


If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.

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## Dianatomia

> If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.


The highest quantities of J among Greeks is in Crete which had little to do with Persians. Also, J in Greece is mostly J2, there is very little to none of J1 (which have probably must have been in some quantities among the Persian armies) in mainland Greece. Even among Greeks from Asia Minor, which have actually been under the Persian empire (mainland Greece, south of Macedonia, did not) J1 is in very low quantities. Also Greek colonies in Magna Graecia have J2 too. So we know that most of it is probably from Ancient Greeks. 

Had the Greeks mixed with Persians, more of J1 must have been within the Greek population. The J1 which is scarcely detected in Greeks is probably from interaction from Phoenicians. Minoans could have had some as well. However, I noticed on the above graph by Zanipolo that Macedonian Albanians have high amounts of J1. Bosniacs have some too. This is probably due to interaction with Anatolian Turks. 

J1 (Semitic/Arab) is around 2% in Greece (mostly Crete), while it is 3.6 among Albanians and 6.3% among FYROM-Albanians. Also, it is 2.4% among Bosniacs. More than any other surrounding Slavic people. Phoenicians and Persians probably never interacted with Albanians and North-Balkan peoples, so J1 must be from another, much more recent source, i.e. Turks or Arabs. 

Note: I don't claim that J1 is Persian, but the Persians (and in any case their armies) surely had it much more than the Greeks.

----------


## FBS

I do not see any data for Kosovar Albanians in the table posted by Zanipolo. The data are for Albania and for FYROM Albanians.

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## Dianatomia

By the way, since this is the right thread. Here is another link on differences of Y-chromosomes between Albanian populations. 

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/...pulations.html

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## Yetos

> If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.


Search the diversities of E Hg in Greece, Albania-Kossovo 
there lay the answer. 
E in Balkans is not the same E of Spain, (NWEST) but EAST african that came from Cyprus and Levant (Akkado-cypriots + Levantines-Phoenicians)

In Greece J2a has divesities that are not found in Persia, but aytochthonus, Meaning that J2a means automatically Greek.(*some J2a and not all)
J2a in Greece is more Like Greek and Minor Asian I could use the word Greco-Anatolian
J2a at least the major Greek diversities are not Persian or Babylonian which have their own diversities,

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## zanipolo

> To zanipolo:
> what study is your data from?


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2008249a.html

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## zanipolo

> If we consider a land route, E is north-west african and J is mesopotamian so probably these 2 groups passed through current greece to get into current albania, but that is meaningless since the current borders were defined in the 20-th century. If we consider a sea route for E, which the phoenicians were famous for, then they could have landed: southern italy -> albania. Either way neither of these groups spoke any greek or originated in greece, at most they passed through greece. In fact the biggest candidate that can claim J are the persians which held parts of eastern greece for hundereds of years. Yes, the greeks won in the end, but they were losing for a long time before that. There are greek stories from that time that say: "when the persian army shot their arrows, the sun would darken", so we're talking about gigantic exodus-like armies coming from persia into eastern and southern greece.


There are 2 theories for albanians with E hg, one, they where from modern area of tunis and tripoli and where thrown out by the phoenicians and the second is an exodus from the southern levant during the hittite-egyptian wars. due to the high concentration of their haplotype, it favours a mass exodus from somewhere ( late bronze age migrational period ). They are not north of the drin river and not in southern epirus

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## zanipolo

> By the way, since this is the right thread. Here is another link on differences of Y-chromosomes between Albanian populations. 
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/03/...pulations.html


the tiny k m9 is not a migration with E but a different period

In human genetics, *Haplogroup K* (M9) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It first appeared approximately 40,000 years ago in Iran or southern Central Asia.

most likely came with the goths in their invasion of the balkans and italy. The goths gathered different people into their armies around the black sea

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## kamani

> Search the diversities of E Hg in Greece, Albania-Kossovo 
> there lay the answer. 
> E in Balkans is not the same E of Spain, (NWEST) but EAST african that came from Cyprus and Levant (Akkado-cypriots + Levantines-Phoenicians)
> 
> In Greece J2a has divesities that are not found in Persia, but aytochthonus, Meaning that J2a means automatically Greek.(*some J2a and not all)
> J2a in Greece is more Like Greek and Minor Asian I could use the word Greco-Anatolian
> J2a at least the major Greek diversities are not Persian or Babylonian which have their own diversities,


Which J2a subgroups are authoctonous greek? What percentage of current greeks have these subgroups? Please provide scientific publishings.

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## Yetos

> Which J2a subgroups are authoctonous greek? What percentage of current greeks have these subgroups? Please provide scientific publishings.


Why?

you just took a general data found here and you make conclusions, 
no further DYS, no mtDNA no autosomal data, 
since you could found the data , you can easily find the data I tell you, 

by what I remember is M319 M 339 L70 although may I am wrong, 

Y-Dna is only one of the tools, a good one, but just one,

J2 Hg is a strange Y-dna that has mother land the areas around of R1b and G, 
remarkable is that in India we find almost little to zero R1b but big J2 
J2 can be the alternative of R1b and R1a in IE theory with G
J2 can be the Aryan linguistic group,
J2 is connected with Greco-Aryan and Indo-Iranian population, from Zagros devastate to India, and from Zagros to Greece (Διας Ζαγρευς, Κουρητες Etc) and rest mediterrenean colonisation, 
it is still unknown when entered Europe, but some suspect that Tripolye was J2a culture, 
until today only G is found in Neolithic Europe and R1b and R1a with the known Tumuli theory, 
but when did J2?

from Crete we realize that was present at iron age 900-1100BC, but still we don't know if entered same time with G, after G and Before R1 or after G and R1.


in fact Varna Necropolis skeletons are very helpfull.
the presence or lack of J2 or R1 is catalytic to understand many.

the Truth is I myshelf need lessons to understand more genneticks, 
but the first lesson i learn is that the highest peak % does not count, 
meaning that a population with 80% Hg can come from a population with 2% of the same Hg, 
there good genetists in the forum, better than my ignorance to explain why to you.

----------


## kamani

> Why?
> 
> you just took a general data found here and you make conclusions, 
> no further DYS, no mtDNA no autosomal data, 
> since you could found the data , you can easily find the data I tell you, 
> 
> by what I remember is M319 M 339 L70 although may I am wrong, 
> 
> Y-Dna is only one of the tools, a good one, but just one,
> ...



I researched M319 and this is what I found from the article "Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau": 
"Of the 57 J2-DYS413 chromosomes in Crete, a total of nine chromosomes are derived at J2a1h-M319 (Figure 2). This mutation was recently discovered in one Iraqi and two Moroccan chromosomes24 and to our knowledge, it has not been reported in any other population. Interestingly, seven out of the nine Cretan M319-derived chromosomes have the (CA)16-(CA)18 genotype at the DYS413 microsatellite marker, a pattern that was not observed in any other DYS413-derived lineage. A prominent frequency of DYS413 (CA)16-(CA)18 chromosomes in Crete, and particularly in the prefecture of Chania, was detected in the past and was attributed to a founder effect in the island.7 It appears from our results that this founder effect is associated with the introduction or origin in Crete of the J2a1h-M319 mutation."

M319 is found among greeks at 4.3% only in the island of crete. So even this questionable autocthonous greek hg is found among greeks at an insignificant percentage. 

M339 and L70, you claimed them, you prove them to be native of greece... 

If you look at Figure 4 in the above article, one can realize that albanians and greeks are closer genetically than any other 2 populations in the mediterannean (at least as far as y-DNA is concerned).

----------


## Yetos

> I researched M319 and this is what I found from the article "Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau": 
> "Of the 57 J2-DYS413 chromosomes in Crete, a total of nine chromosomes are derived at J2a1h-M319 (Figure 2). This mutation was recently discovered in one Iraqi and two Moroccan chromosomes24 and to our knowledge, it has not been reported in any other population. Interestingly, seven out of the nine Cretan M319-derived chromosomes have the (CA)16-(CA)18 genotype at the DYS413 microsatellite marker, a pattern that was not observed in any other DYS413-derived lineage. A prominent frequency of DYS413 (CA)16-(CA)18 chromosomes in Crete, and particularly in the prefecture of Chania, was detected in the past and was attributed to a founder effect in the island.7 It appears from our results that this founder effect is associated with the introduction or origin in Crete of the J2a1h-M319 mutation."
> 
> M319 is found among greeks at 4.3% only in the island of crete. So even this questionable autocthonous greek hg is found among greeks at an insignificant percentage. 
> 
> M339 and L70, you claimed them, you prove them to be native of greece... 
> 
> If you look at Figure 4 in the above article, one can realize that albanians and greeks are closer genetically than any other 2 populations in the mediterannean (at least as far as y-DNA is concerned).


well to make my shelf clear, 

I said some J2a are identical to Greece, and you just prove it, 
same is with L70 and M339 if I remmember correct, search which population share them, 
I don't deny that Greek and Albanian population are near in Y-Dna,, simply I say you need more than that to calim such a thing, 
like autosomals, mtDNA and more,
now the connection is from ancient times colonisation that continue at Roman times, Byzantine times, and late canturies,
I spoke about a go and come and go of population, 
now some varieties of Y-Dna can help better to understand, for example in E hg Greece has diversities that are not found in Albanian population and Albania has one diversity that have not found among Greek population, by a possble estimation of mutation time and origin of type you can find a lot of things,
now if you want me to say Yes, then Yes, there is a relation among Albanian and Greek population, but it is more complex, 
For example Arberesh and some Arbanites spotted population have autosomal more connected to Italy than Greece and Albania, no matter what Y-DNA shows, 
I have posted a link somewhere in the forum about that according Dienekes.

----------


## kamani

crete has a population of 621 340, out of which roughly 310 000 are males, M319 is at 4.3% in crete. This means that *in the whole greece there are only 13.000 men who might be native of greece*, *the rest which is 5.500.000 none knows where they came from*. It could be rome, persia, albania, turkey, bulgaria, serbia, africa etc. *13.000 out of 5.500.000 is only 0.2%*. If nothing else this proves that greeks are not native of greece.

This leads me to think that the simmilarity between greeks and albanians has little to do with the native greeks of crete, who have pretty much dissapeared from the area. In my opinion the simmilarity is because albania and greece have been the same country for at least 2000 years consecutively under the romans, byzantines, and ottomans.

----------


## Eldritch

> The highest quantities of J among Greeks is in Crete which had little to do with Persians. Also, J in Greece is mostly J2, there is very little to none of J1 (which have probably must have been in some quantities among the Persian armies) in mainland Greece. Even among Greeks from Asia Minor, which have actually been under the Persian empire (mainland Greece, south of Macedonia, did not) J1 is in very low quantities. Also Greek colonies in Magna Graecia have J2 too. So we know that most of it is probably from Ancient Greeks. 
> 
> Had the Greeks mixed with Persians, more of J1 must have been within the Greek population. The J1 which is scarcely detected in Greeks is probably from interaction from Phoenicians. Minoans could have had some as well. However, I noticed on the above graph by Zanipolo that Kosovar Albanians have high amounts of J1. Bosniacs have some too. This is probably due to interaction with Anatolian Turks. 
> 
> J1 (Semitic/Arab) is around 2% in Greece (mostly Crete), while it is 3.6 among Albanians and 6.3% among FYROM-Albanians. Also, it is 2.4% among Bosniacs. More than any other surrounding Slavic people. Phoenicians and Persians probably never interacted with Albanians and North-Balkan peoples, so J1 must be from another, much more recent source, i.e. Turks or Arabs. 
> 
> Note: I don't claim that J1 is Persian, but the Persians (and in any case their armies) surely had it much more than the Greeks.


But Greeks posses also the highest percentage of T and 1.1% of L.
How do you explain this?

----------


## Yetos

> crete has a population of 621 340, out of which roughly 310 000 are males, M319 is at 4.3% in crete. This means that *in the whole greece there are only 13.000 men who might be native of greece*, *the rest which is 5.500.000 none knows where they came from*. It could be rome, persia, albania, turkey, bulgaria, serbia, africa etc. *13.000 out of 5.500.000 is only 0.2%*. If nothing else this proves that greeks are not native of greece.
> 
> This leads me to think that the simmilarity between greeks and albanians has little to do with the native greeks of crete, who have pretty much dissapeared from the area. In my opinion the simmilarity is because albania and greece have been the same country for at least 2000 years consecutively under the romans, byzantines, and ottomans.


*Are we playing games with numbers?
*
I see Canadian flag and I guess that you are an Albanian in origin cause you try that connection, 

*OK CAN YOU TELL US AN AYTOCHTHONUS Y_DNA OF CANADA?*
I GUESS NONE OR SOME AMERIDIAN, SO WITH YOUR LOGIC WHO IS CANADIAN? WHY YOU CARRY THAT FLAG?
*
CONSIDERING THAT E IN BALKANS IS CYPRIOT, IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC HALF POPULATION OF KOSSOVO ARE CYPRIOTS
CONSIDERING THAT I2b1 IS SLAVIC THEN WHO IS ALBANIAN ?, 
IS THAT YOPUR LOGIC?*

WHEN YOU ANSWER ME THAT QUESTION I WIIL ANSWER YOU, 
*
WHICH HG IS NATIVE IN EUROPE?*

simply if I follow your childish logic that only 13 000 Greek are Greeks then I can prove you many garbage about anyone, 
just answer us which is native to Europe? to realize what you have just said,

CONSIDER WHAT YOU HAVE JUST CLAIM. 

IF COUNTRY HAS NO AUTOCHTHONUS DNA THEN NOBOBY BELONGS TO IT, 

AND I ASK YOU, 
BY FOLLOWING YOUR LOGIC, HOW MUCH AUTOCHTHONUS CANADA HAS? HOW MUCH ALBANIA AND KOSSOVO HAS?

----------


## Yetos

> But Greeks posses also the highest percentage of T and 1.1% of L.
> How do you explain this?


T HG 

I am not familiar to that but I know that there many T like Ethiopean one, the middle East one and some rest, 

I am not going to search where that T is found and which subclade is, 

HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT AS J2 MOVED COULD CARRY SOME T WITH IT?
HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT T also exists in Hebrew and is spread in all countries?

why don't you make an analysis of that T to tell us from where it came, where it is spread, when it entered?
T can be found even in the North Europe,

----------


## zanipolo

> But Greeks posses also the highest percentage of T and 1.1% of L.
> How do you explain this?


I don't know what you mean here, T and L arrived in europe with G.
As an example otzi in the alps is G, but western austria has 8.8% of T, Northeast Italy has 4.5% of T.
or
do you mean T of MtDna?

----------


## zanipolo

> T HG 
> 
> I am not familiar to that but I know that there many T like Ethiopean one, the middle East one and some rest, 
> 
> I am not going to search where that T is found and which subclade is, 
> 
> HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT AS J2 MOVED COULD CARRY SOME T WITH IT?
> HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT T also exists in Hebrew and is spread in all countries?
> 
> ...


T is found as far away as siberia to india to ireland to morocco to south africa to arabia ..........it is purely only a hunter gatherer marker and not a farming marker like G.

In Greeks its referred by genetic scholars as a "mixed greek" term/people........doric mixing with ionian and minoan


BTW...is it not amazing that I am T and yet all tests say I am 100% european. the tests go back as far as 2500 years from what I was told. It means I could have arrived with the late bronze-age migrations from western asia/steppes

----------


## Dianatomia

> But Greeks posses also the highest percentage of T and 1.1% of L.
> How do you explain this?


If you would care to explain your insinuation, then perhaps I can comment on that. In any case, haplogroup L2 is detected in many places in Southern Europe. What does this have to do with the Persians? Don't think Northern Italians which have 4.5% of L2 are descendants of Persians (Iranians have very little L2 btw). But the very low frequenty of L2 in Greeks could come -in part- from Venetians or perhaps from Romans, Armenians or Greek Pontians who lived in the Caucasus for millenia. Then again, it's also detectable in Calabria so it could have been present in Greece in low quantities since ancient times. At least in some localities. 

Altogether 1.1% of L2 in Greeks is not as puzzling to me as reasonable quantities of J1 in Albanians and Bosniacs. 

But it's a good thing you bring up haplogroup T which is detectable all over Europe. According to this: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA)

Albanians South of the Drin river have 3.3% of T. Close (perhaps slightly less) to the mainland Greek standards. What strikes me is that T is not detected in Kosovars and North Albanians (Gheghs). 

Where does T in South Albanians come from and why is it not present in North Albanians/Kosovars?

----------


## kamani

> *Are we playing games with numbers?
> *
> I see Canadian flag and I guess that you are an Albanian in origin cause you try that connection, 
> 
> *OK CAN YOU TELL US AN AYTOCHTHONUS Y_DNA OF CANADA?*
> I GUESS NONE OR SOME AMERIDIAN, SO WITH YOUR LOGIC WHO IS CANADIAN? WHY YOU CARRY THAT FLAG?
> *
> CONSIDERING THAT E IN BALKANS IS CYPRIOT, IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC HALF POPULATION OF KOSSOVO ARE CYPRIOTS
> CONSIDERING THAT I2b1 IS SLAVIC THEN WHO IS ALBANIAN ?, 
> ...


I gave you data and real scientific studies showing that greeks are not native of greece and you called them childish without giving any reasoning. I could start a discussion as to E V-13 being native to albanians but you probably will twist that too into some form of political discussion, so if you don't provide any scientific sources or data, there is no really point in talking to you.

----------


## Eldritch

> If you would care to explain your insinuation, then perhaps I can comment on that. In any case, haplogroup L2 is detected in many places in Southern Europe. What does this have to do with the Persians? Don't think Northern Italians which have 4.5% of L2 are descendants of Persians (Iranians have very little L2 btw). But the very low frequenty of L2 in Greeks could come -in part- from Venetians or perhaps from Romans, Armenians or Greek Pontians who lived in the Caucasus for millenia. Then again, it's also detectable in Calabria so it could have been present in Greece in low quantities since ancient times. At least in some localities. 
> 
> Altogether 1.1% of L2 in Greeks is not as puzzling to me as reasonable quantities of J1 in Albanians and Bosniacs. 
> 
> But it's a good thing you bring up haplogroup T which is detectable all over Europe. According to this: 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA)
> 
> Albanians South of the Drin river have 3.3% of T. Close (perhaps slightly less) to the mainland Greek standards. What strikes me is that T is not detected in Kosovars and North Albanians (Gheghs). 
> ...


If your argument is it's detectable in many places in Europe than i can say the same about J1 much more than L for sure and comparable to T probably.
Don't try to deviate data, your link has only 30 Albanians.
In the chart that Zanipolo posted that has much larger sample of Albanians( 119 vs 30 in the link you posted) there's no T found, so that 1 T was probably just noise.
So let's add 119 + 30= 149. 
1 Albanian on 149 had T, that makes less than 1%.
So T in Albanians isn't just slightly less compared to Greeks, it's 4.8 % vs less than 1%.
And how can you say that T Albanian was from south?

----------


## Eldritch

> I don't know what you mean here, T and L arrived in europe with G.
> As an example otzi in the alps is G, but western austria has 8.8% of T, Northeast Italy has 4.5% of T.
> or
> do you mean T of MtDna?


And how do you know?
Do we have any samples from Neolithic period that proves that.
I think myself T is Neolithic but certainly that's not the case of L.

----------


## Eldritch

> T is found as far away as siberia to india to ireland to morocco to south africa to arabia ..........it is purely only a hunter gatherer marker and not a farming marker like G.
> 
> In Greeks its referred by genetic scholars as a "mixed greek" term/people........doric mixing with ionian and minoan
> 
> 
> BTW...is it not amazing that I am T and yet all tests say I am 100% european. the tests go back as far as 2500 years from what I was told. It means I could have arrived with the late bronze-age migrations from western asia/steppes


Obviously you'll come out 100% European cause Autosomals and Y-DNa are different things.

----------


## zanipolo

> If you would care to explain your insinuation, then perhaps I can comment on that. In any case, haplogroup L2 is detected in many places in Southern Europe. What does this have to do with the Persians? Don't think Northern Italians which have 4.5% of L2 are descendants of Persians (Iranians have very little L2 btw). But the very low frequenty of L2 in Greeks could come -in part- from Venetians or perhaps from Romans, Armenians or Greek Pontians who lived in the Caucasus for millenia. Then again, it's also detectable in Calabria so it could have been present in Greece in low quantities since ancient times. At least in some localities. 
> 
> Altogether 1.1% of L2 in Greeks is not as puzzling to me as reasonable quantities of J1 in Albanians and Bosniacs. 
> 
> But it's a good thing you bring up haplogroup T which is detectable all over Europe. According to this: 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(Y-DNA)
> 
> Albanians South of the Drin river have 3.3% of T. Close (perhaps slightly less) to the mainland Greek standards. What strikes me is that T is not detected in Kosovars and North Albanians (Gheghs). 
> ...


T in greeks was mostly restricted to the island chios and crete has it ( ionions and minoans ), corfu had it as well, but then that could be venetian

----------


## zanipolo

> And how do you know?
> Do we have any samples from Neolithic period that proves that.
> I think myself T is Neolithic but certainly that's not the case of L.


T and L both came out of K
and K is still being found in tosks of albania ....indicating a central asian homeland

----------


## Eldritch

Too bad there aren't Greeks here:

HAPLO3.jpg

K as you see is absent in Kosovar Albanian and if i'm not wrong only Ferri found 3.31% of K in Tosks.

----------


## zanipolo

> Too bad there aren't Greeks here:
> 
> HAPLO3.jpg
> 
> K as you see is absent in Kosovar Albanian and if i'm not wrong only Ferri found 3.31% of K in Tosks.


yes Ferri noted it

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2010...pulations.html

----------


## Yetos

> I gave you data and real scientific studies showing that greeks are not native of greece and you called them childish without giving any reasoning. I could start a discussion as to E V-13 being native to albanians but you probably will twist that too into some form of political discussion, so if you don't provide any scientific sources or data, there is no really point in talking to you.


You can't
*
I challenge you,* 

*show me and the rest in the forum that is native in Albanians?*

go ahead, be a gennetist, tell us, you say political discussion, 
ok tell us a scientific evidence that E is Albanian autochthonus, and all is genetical identification of Albanians. 
Go ahead, 

I am not thretened, if you could then why you don't do it?

if you believe that Albanian language is IE how you connected with E? on the other hand you tell us what now? 
that Europe was populated and is the homeland of humanity?

sory but i think you speak more political with strange use of numbers, 

just for your information, 
how much time needed J2 to show a mutation in Crete?
to have a mutation how many generations and how many people of the same HG needed?

for your information the mutation in Crete means J2a EXISTED IN CRETE AND SOUROUNDS AREAS FOR MILLENIUMS AND HAS BIGGER NUMBERS THAN THE ONES YOU DESCRIBE. 

you are another Zeus10 who just want to create impressions


Look guys no matter you use Canadian Finland flags you can not hide, 
cause for 40 years you repeat the same ignoring all academics.
you just create impressions, from 1973 when H.K. created you and found A.K. to start. 

nothing new, just the same,

----------


## Yetos

> Too bad there aren't Greeks here:
> 
> HAPLO3.jpg
> 
> K as you see is absent in Kosovar Albanian and if i'm not wrong only Ferri found 3.31% of K in Tosks.


Indeed, too bad, cause Tosks in autosomal are closiest to Greeks, E poplulation might not have K cause they are not IE speakers (IEuropeans) indicating a possible non Asian homeland but an african one or a levantine one,

yet you did not tell us which T subcalde, the Ethiopean one, go ahead give the origin of T?

I am tired of you guys, 40 years the same tricks,

----------


## kamani

> You can't
> *
> I challenge you,* 
> 
> *show me and the rest in the forum that is native in Albanians?*
> 
> go ahead, be a gennetist, tell us, you say political discussion, 
> ok tell us a scientific evidence that E is Albanian autochthonus, and all is genetical identification of Albanians. 
> Go ahead, 
> ...


-Look up e v-13, it has the highest density in albanian kosovars and it spreads from there throughout the balkans.
-e v-13 in the balkans is from the neolithic which means at least 10.000 yrs old, which is before the minoans and mychaneans, so before the greeks. 
-The distribution of this hg in the area matches the distribution of albanians in the balkans, with mountaneous kosovo and north-east albania having the highest density, and lower areas where romans, greeks, slavs, and turks could get, having lower density.

-Mountanous north-east albania has always been autonomous during various occupations because of the shear difficulty of foreign armies to get to it.

----------


## zanipolo

> Indeed, too bad, cause Tosks in autosomal are closiest to Greeks, E poplulation might not have K cause they are not IE speakers (IEuropeans) indicating a possible non Asian homeland but an african one or a levantine one,
> 
> yet you did not tell us which T subcalde, the Ethiopean one, go ahead give the origin of T?
> 
> I am tired of you guys, 40 years the same tricks,


there are basically 3 main T ree lines

*T* L445, L452, L455, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272, Page129
• *T** -
• *T1* L206, L490, M193
• • *T1** -
• • *T1a* M70/Page46, Page78
• • • *T1a** -
• • • *T1a1* L162/Page21, L299, L453, L454
• • • • *T1a1** -
• • • • *T1a1a* L208/Page2, L905
• • • • • *T1a1a** -
• • • • • *T1a1a1* P77
• • • • • *T1a1a2* P321
• • • • • • *T1a1a2** -
• • • • • • *T1a1a2a* P317
• • • *T1a2* L131
• • • • *T1a2** -
• • • • *T1a2a* P322, P328
• • • • *T1a2b* L446
• • • *T1a3* L1255

T1a1 is mostly iberia, africa, half italy, greece, asia minor levant and sudan

T1a2 is northern europe, eastern europe, half Italy , "old yuoslavia" , old thrace, north caucasus, east africa ( as it went to africa ) south africa

T1a3 is very new...kuwait and arabia

Becareful in internet because a lot of T1a1 was T1a2 up to august 2012

T1a2 was T1b was T3 was K2

T1a1 was T1a was T2 was K2

----------


## Yetos

> -Look up e v-13, it has the highest density in albanian kosovars and it spreads from there throughout the balkans.
> -e v-13 in the balkans is from the neolithic which means at least 10.000 yrs old, which is before the minoans and mychaneans, so before the greeks. 
> -The distribution of this hg in the area matches the distribution of albanians in the balkans, with mountaneous kosovo and north-east albania having the highest density, and lower areas where romans, greeks, slavs, and turks could get, having lower density.
> 
> -Mountanous north-east albania has always been autonomous during various occupations because of the shear difficulty of foreign armies to get to it.


Funny is n't it?

Big number density. wow what a word?
*

why you don't write a Thread about that, 

Genetists who read you here I wonder what reaction they have. 
so Y-Dna is a liguid that can not be transform and always goes from the high density to low density? Right?

is that you are telling us?


The second lesson I learn here is to behave polite, 
and that is what I will do, 

*
so with the most polite way, I think that you are wrong, 

ask a genetist to explain you why, 
I will not spend all my day answering your political propaganda, 
which play tricks with numbers and not with gennetic laws, 

search with gennetic laws and not with numbers,


yes mountain Albania aytonomous, Illyrian Celts, Pelasgians, Makedonians enter there, Visigoths enter there, Romans enter there, Slavs enter there, Thracians enter there, 
stop your political propaganda, plz, you are speaking with grow humans and not with school boys.


and why is wrong, simply you are blinded with the high consentration of E Hg in kossovo so you used the laws of liquid mechanics to tell us that Greek E is from Albania, 
you also tell us in another post that J2 is showing connection to Babylonia, 

*lets see if I follow your calculations and LOGIC*

Crete has the biggest consentration of J2 in the world 
so Babylonians India Kurds Albanian J2 all mediterrean is from crete, 
that is a result following yor logic and calculations. 

THAT HAPPENS WHEN WE USE YOUR LAW, 
That is your prove is crap and means nothing, except the historical mistakes,

*Part B* 

E hg neolithic in Balkans?
since when?
is that another claim of yours?
in what tomp it was found?

You wanted to be neolithic, cause fits you, 

don't mess Iberian E which is Neolithic with Balcanic E, 
among Iberia and Balkans the distance is Huge, and E did not found in any other neolithic tomp like Treilles etc so connection of Balcanic E with Iberian Neolithic is out of case since neither in Italy is found neither in France, neither in any Neolithic Tomp in Balkans,

maybe I am wrong to that but the oldest E in surround area is found in Konya Turkey estimate to about 2000 BC

----------


## Eldritch

> Indeed, too bad, cause Tosks in autosomal are closiest to Greeks, E poplulation might not have K cause they are not IE speakers (IEuropeans) indicating a possible non Asian homeland but an african one or a levantine one,
> 
> yet you did not tell us which T subcalde, the Ethiopean one, go ahead give the origin of T?
> 
> I am tired of you guys, 40 years the same tricks,


Tosks closest in Autosomal to Greeks?
Do you have a study that proves it or it's just supposition.
It's not imporant the T clade in this case.

----------


## Yetos

> Tosks closest in Autosomal to Greeks?
> Do you have a study that proves it or it's just supposition.
> It's not imporant the T clade in this case.


sory I am trying to find where I founded that about Tosks and Greeks. 
maybe I am wrong to that, 
until I find it consider it as wrong and never told,

----------


## kamani

> Funny is n't it?
> 
> Big number density. wow what a word?
> *
> 
> why you don't write a Thread about that, 
> 
> Genetists who read you here I wonder what reaction they have. 
> so Y-Dna is a liguid that can not be transform and always goes from the high density to low density? Right?
> ...


I think you have some false beliefs in your head and you get angry if somebody questions them. 

The highest frequency of J2 is not in crete:
"The highest reported frequency of J2 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29 

here is your law of mechanics...
The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, 
during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...1b_.28E-V13.29

I can tell you know nothing about the mountainous areas of albania. There are paths to many villages that
only goats and locals can get, let alone armies. Other than pelasgians and illyrians, none else has any 
records to have set foot there. And these areas coincide with the greatest concentration of v-13, and pelasgians
are a reasonable candidate for v-13, being one of the first inhabitants of the area on record.

Anyways, I don't think I am learning anything from you and I am teaching you how to be polite...
so please do your research and come back with sources, not with more bs.

----------


## Yetos

> I think you have some false beliefs in your head and you get angry if somebody questions them. 
> 
> The highest frequency of J2 is not in crete:
> "The highest reported frequency of J2 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29 
> 
> here is your law of mechanics...
> The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, 
> during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.
> ...


Funny isn't it?
you play tricks, and I am the bad guy,
you use liquid mechanic laws and I have wrong beliefs in my head, 


1.
*ok Then your theories are wrongcause 
the law that gives a mother land is the law of Diversity, 
which in Albania is almost 0-1*

2. you said and wiki 
The distribution and diversity of V13 are often *thought* to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, 
during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.

*it say thought, not proven*
since Neolithic E has not found in Balkans but I think in Konya Turkey a bronze age one there is no scientific prove, 
until today G2 I are known about early Neolithic and J with them or follow them.

and I ask now, do you have any scientific prove? not a thought a prove? about Neolithic in Balkans?

if E is so old 9000 years old how come until today has so little muttations?
how come in 9000 years show just 1 diversity in Albania and Bosnia population of E?

*Cruciani et Al gives 4-4,7 000 years in balkans,* considering the E found in konya is about that time seems like Cruciani is correct, about the entrance at 2000 -2500 BC, Historically is probably either the Hettit entrance in minor Asia, either Akkado-Cypriot colonisation or Decline, 

sory all the rest are thoughts and liguid mechanics law,

I try to keep calm my shelf. 
no I don't get angry when someone ask,
I get angry cause you make numeral tricks, make your own laws as fits you,

anyway I am not teacher in genetics, to teach you, 
but before even you ask how it works you make conclusions, and play tricks, just to create impression

----------


## Dianatomia

> T in greeks was mostly restricted to the island chios and crete has it ( ionions and minoans ), corfu had it as well, but then that could be venetian


Well, since it is present in the islands via the minoan (and Ionian) connection it is logical that it should be found in other Greeks as well. Keep in mind that most of the original population of Chios was wiped out by the Turks. The ones who now inhabit the island are Greeks from Asia minor. 

I would like to see some more research on South and North Albanians. See if T is present in low rates in the South and is indeed absent in the north. That could indicate something concerning the difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians. 

What I would love to see is a general research of Gheghs, Tosks, Greeks and South Italians. Based on all the data we have, I think that Gheghs will not cluster with the other three groups.

----------


## kamani

> Funny isn't it?
> you play tricks, and I am the bad guy,
> you use liquid mechanic laws and I have wrong beliefs in my head, 
> 
> 
> 1.
> *ok Then your theories are wrongcause 
> the law that gives a mother land is the law of Diversity, 
> which in Albania is almost 0-1*
> ...


There is evidence that european V-13 is neolithic. They have found V-13 in Spain, at least 7.000 years old. (Lacan et al) So here you are again getting caught lying

800px-HgE1b1b1a2.jpg. 
Here is the map of v-13 in the world. Unless you're blind, you cannot deny that current albanians own this hg.

and why are you in this posting trying to talk down albanians and kosovars anyway? I thought greeks believe to be better than albanians...

----------


## Eldritch

> Well, since it is present in the islands via the minoan (and Ionian) connection it is logical that it should be found in other Greeks as well. Keep in mind that most of the original population of Chios was wiped out by the Turks. The ones who now inhabit the island are Greeks from Asia minor. 
> 
> I would like to see some more research on South and North Albanians. See if T is present in low rates in the South and is indeed absent in the north. That could indicate something concerning the difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians. 
> 
> What I would love to see is a general research of Gheghs, Tosks, Greeks and South Italians. Based on all the data we have, I think that Gheghs will not cluster with the other three groups.


What's the all data we have?
Actually if we go by Y-DNA Ghegs are far more closer to Greeks and South Italians so i don't know what you're trying to say.

----------


## zanipolo

> Well, since it is present in the islands via the minoan (and Ionian) connection it is logical that it should be found in other Greeks as well. Keep in mind that most of the original population of Chios was wiped out by the Turks. The ones who now inhabit the island are Greeks from Asia minor. 
> 
> I would like to see some more research on South and North Albanians. See if T is present in low rates in the South and is indeed absent in the north. That could indicate something concerning the difference between Kosovo Albanians and Albanians. 
> 
> What I would love to see is a general research of Gheghs, Tosks, Greeks and South Italians. Based on all the data we have, I think that Gheghs will not cluster with the other three groups.


There is no T in albania , only its parent marker K for the tosks

----------


## Yetos

> There is evidence that european V-13 is neolithic. They have found V-13 in Spain, at least 7.000 years old. (Lacan et al) So here you are again getting caught lying
> 
> 800px-HgE1b1b1a2.jpg. 
> Here is the map of v-13 in the world. Unless you're blind, you cannot deny that current albanians own this hg.
> 
> and why are you in this posting trying to talk down albanians and kosovars anyway? I thought greeks believe to be better than albanians...


Funny isn't it, 

It fits your political, 

1.)
The lack of E-V13 in all Neolithic tomps in Europe except Spain is Evidence that Albanian E has nothing to do with Neolithjic E of Spain, 

2) The diversities in Albanian population are so little to say that E is identical to Albanian population
Instead Greece has more Diversities than Kossovo, in fact The highest local peak is Bosnia first, Greece secons, Kossovo 3rd.

3) graphics means nothing but diversity does,

the oldest close to Balkans E is the Konya E estimated about 2000 - 2500 BC 
which is time line of both Cruciani et Al (4-4,7 KY) and Dienekes. 

Until today no connection is found from arcahoiologists to claim that neolithic Spanish E reach Balkans, it is not in all Neolithic in France and Italy and North Balkans,
instead the connection with Cyprus and Levant is obvious.

why you posting since you are Canadian, and why you make Greek Babylonians?

Before you show us that graphic, tell us from where that E came?.

----------


## Yetos

> What's the all data we have?
> Actually if we go by Y-DNA Ghegs are far more closer to Greeks and South Italians so i don't know what you're trying to say.


no offense but to claim that you mention according patriarchical.
according matriarchical 
according autosomal 

if we consider the sum of E Y-DNA yes you hasve a point, there is a connection in a % of patriarchical

----------


## kamani

> Funny isn't it, 
> 
> It fits your political, 
> 
> 1.)
> The lack of E-V13 in all Neolithic tomps in Europe except Spain is Evidence that Albanian E has nothing to do with Neolithjic E of Spain, 
> 
> 2) The diversities in Albanian population are so little to say that E is identical to Albanian population
> Instead Greece has more Diversities than Kossovo, in fact The highest local peak is Bosnia first, Greece secons, Kossovo 3rd.
> ...


Those questions are answered in my previous posts and in the links that I gave you. I am not going to repeat myself to no end. If you don't understand, I'm sorry..

----------


## Beast

Only similarities between Serbs and Albanians is that Serbs also are high in E.. a haplogroup that seems to be more common among Kosovar Albanians than any other group in the Balkans. While Kosovar Albanians lack haplogroups like R1a and I2a, common among south Slavs.

I don't know about J2 in Serbs? but it's high in Albanians tested... I think this haplogroup came from the Caucasus. but I also think haplogroup E came from the Caucasus rather directly from Africa.

Historians linked Pelasgian language with Albanian and Armenian. Historians also linked Pelasgian culture with Georgian culture and similar to Albanians.. But these things are just ignored. It is believed the Pelasgians came from Caucasus. Marin Barleti, historian from 15th century wrote that ancestors of Albanians at some point in time lived in the Caucasus mountains, Georgia, Colchis. immigrated to europe, in the hills of rome and then to Greece (Greek Macedonia, and Peloponnese). these things fit with the Pelasgian theory.

It is well known Pelasgians were a group of people that lived in Greece before Greeks, and were often cited as speaking a non-greek language.

----------


## Yetos

> Those questions are answered in my previous posts and in the links that I gave you. I am not going to repeat myself to no end. If you don't understand, I'm sorry..


Sory I did not put questions, 

I just answer yours and your imaginary theories,


> Only similarities between Serbs and Albanians is that Serbs also are high in E.. a haplogroup that seems to be more common among Kosovar Albanians than any other group in the Balkans. While Kosovar Albanians lack haplogroups like R1a and I2a, common among south Slavs.
> 
> I don't know about J2 in Serbs? but it's high in Albanians tested... I think this haplogroup came from the Caucasus. but I also think haplogroup E came from the Caucasus rather directly from Africa.
> 
> Historians linked Pelasgian language with Albanian and Armenian. Historians also linked Pelasgian culture with Georgian culture and similar to Albanians.. But these things are just ignored. It is believed the Pelasgians came from Caucasus. Marin Barleti, historian from 15th century wrote that ancestors of Albanians at some point in time lived in the Caucasus mountains, Georgia, Colchis. immigrated to europe, in the hills of rome and then to Greece (Greek Macedonia, and Peloponnese). these things fit with the Pelasgian theory.
> 
> *It is well known Pelasgians were a group of people that lived in Greece before Greeks, and were often cited as speaking a non-greek language*.



wow, they lived in Greece, and Historians say that spoke a non IE language, the Etruscan language, 
I wonder how much E Hg Etruscans have?

Now so they lived in Greece, and they Left. to where to Albania?
the only who Left to Albania were the Kadmeians (Herodotus) 
Thyrrenians left to Italy (Thoukidides)

and they left E behind them?

then how come your post #68 works?




> There is evidence that european V-13 is neolithic. They have found V-13 in Spain, at least 7.000 years old. (Lacan et al) So here you are again getting caught lying
> 
> 800px-HgE1b1b1a2.jpg. 
> Here is the map of v-13 in the world. Unless you're blind, you cannot deny that current albanians own this hg.
> 
> and why are you in this posting trying to talk down albanians and kosovars anyway? I thought greeks believe to be better than albanians...


I wonder how your model works?
so Kossovars E HG

1) is Neolithic from Spain
2) came from Caucasus 
3) it is Pelasgian, means either Hattian (G people Sardinia) probably the ones named Etruscan and Greeks name Thyrrenoi, either Kadmeian (cyprus phillistines=Falisti=Pelasgii=palestinians) a non IE language, 
but both Kadmeians and Etruscans had written speech, !!!!!
4) lived in Greece before Albania but is not Connected with later Greek ethnogenesis,
they all left to mountains of Kossovo, and return as Albanians and they spread in Balkans having almost 0-1 diversity. 
5) they also went to Rome where they name the white mountains Mont Albani, and then they went to Greece, so Greeks moved to Greece after Albanians build Rome?
6) Ancient writers also say that Pelasgians homeland was Smyrna area, did they also moved there?

I wonder how an 'isolated'? population, is Neolithic, with out trails of its landwalk to the mountains, from Spain and not from a landwalk though Anatolia, or a sea travel from its homeland?

how in his 'primary'? land gave no diversity, while in its late movements south as it spread gave diversities?

*Besides I don't lie,* and plz don't tell me lier
I just say what Cruciani et Al say 4-4,7 KY 
which fits with Dienekes analysis and the E-V13 found in Konya-Turkey
and also combines that from Spain to Albania there is no arcahological trace so to explain that they came at Neolithic era from Spain
maybe I am wrong, but 
the older the area of a Hg existance the more possible to give mutations,

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## Yetos

Sory it drops from connection and I repeated the previous post

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## Yetos

> There is evidence that european V-13 is neolithic. They have found V-13 in Spain, at least 7.000 years old. (Lacan et al) So here you are again getting caught lying
> 
> Attachment 5774. 
> Here is the map of v-13 in the world. Unless you're blind, you cannot deny that current albanians own this hg.
> 
> and why are you in this posting trying to talk down albanians and kosovars anyway? I thought greeks believe to be better than albanians...



Nope E-V13 of Albania is Paleolithic in Europe, 
It was found in Egypt and Levant which is closer to Balkans, before 15 000 years, 

Even in your map there is a grey zone from Spain to Balkans, while exist in Portugal, I really wonder why?
maybe Paleolithic Humans had airplanes to travel.

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## oriental

Those blank areas are where the R1b people wiped out the E-V13 and G2 people in their conquest of France and Spain

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## Ivan

> Those blank areas are where the R1b people wiped out the E-V13 and G2 people in their conquest of France and Spain


Maybe,

Congratulations to R1b for their victorious conquest.
I think they can be also credited for much of cultural advancements that helped shape Europe and subsequently, the world of today.

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## oriental

Life is not fair. Hg N-O-P-R people were born later thus had to occupy cold Central Asia. The less able died in the cold. The survivors were toughened and made smarter. So they moved north (Siberia) east (China) and west (Anatolia then up the Danube) and even south to India. They had it tough. The R1b that took over Europe did not eliminate all the E and G as the Sea People had advanced weapons who could fight off the R1b people on the coastal areas of southern Europe. The Sea People were E, G and I people.

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## Ivan

> Life is not fair. Hg N-O-P-R people were born later thus had to occupy cold Central Asia. The less able died in the cold. The survivors were toughened and made smarter. So they moved north (Siberia) east (China) and west (Anatolia then up the Danube) and even south to India. They had it tough. The R1b that took over Europe did not eliminate all the E and G as the Sea People had advanced weapons who could fight off the R1b people on the coastal areas of southern Europe. The Sea People were E, G and I people.


Yes this could be.

I don't want to wander too much off the topic,
but in defense of neolithic people,

I am not sure if a large state like communities existed in neolithic Europe, or any large groups in hold of territory comparable in scale with today's France or Spain. Maybe they were conscious about common heritage as such, but not sure about forming some sort of town confederations capable of defending common ground and territory.
There were also surely lots of free spaces for new settlers to claim. This does not undermine military success in eradication of previous inhabitants, if that was what happened.

My personal impression is that neolithic people of Europe lived in extended families and tribes in something like a town or more often village structures, were pretty much scattered, and mostly interested in basic survival by defending a small perimeter around their settlement. Some towns though, could have accommodated quite a large community, but were still a small hold in terms of territory.

I think that developed form of agriculture that produced large armies, and boosted population in general, started with the arrival of metal tools, that made better ploughing possible. Also, neolithic farming was at best, modest in terms of production.

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## oriental

European civilization began in the south not in the north. The mix of southern E, I and G with the Roman R1b people gave us the Roman Empire while Greek R1a and R1b with the Sea Peoples gave us the Greek or Macedonian Empire.

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## Ivan

> European civilization began in the south not in the north.


Surely, 

My point was that military invasion on neolithic Europe is IMO, a bit stretched, in terms of large armies, and probably not so necessary if we consider vast undefended territories.

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## kamani

true human settlement in one place begins mostly in the neolithic with the rise of primitive agriculture. Before that I imagine we were dealing with hunter-gatherers equipped with stone weapons, that moved wherever they could find prey. Pure hunting and gathering can support a very small population, so I imagine pre-neolithic europe to be simmilar to north america right when the europeans got there. Meaning, vast areas of uninhabited land with a few tribes here and there.

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## Ivan

> true human settlement in one place begins mostly in the neolithic with the rise of primitive agriculture.



The point was not to degrade neolithic settlement importance, nor the value of primitive agriculture as an idea, which was revolutionary for the time, at least in Europe of the time. It was about capability of neolithic people to connect militarily in a common culture, for a common cause, and to engage in a territorial war, on a large scale.

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## kamani

GreekMythologyChartCeltsGaulsIllyriansType.jpg
This image is the ancient greek mythology family tree for illyrians. 
This might shed some light as to where do albanians get their r1b from. I am not totally discounting the romans, ofcourse.

Caesar says the Gauls called themselves _Celtae_. Gaul was modern France and northern Italy and "Gauls" were the peple who lived there according to the Romans. Linguistically, the people who lived in Gaul were Celts. Tacitus says of the Cotini and the Osi "(they) are not Germans: that is proved by their language, Celtic in the one case, Pannonian in the other"
I might be wrong thou, in assuming that the celts and gauls were R1b

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## Eldritch

> no offense but to claim that you mention according patriarchical.
> according matriarchical 
> according autosomal 
> 
> if we consider the sum of E Y-DNA yes you hasve a point, there is a connection in a % of patriarchical


Yes i'm speaking about Y-DNA, we don't know about autosomal yet.

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## oriental

I think much of the troubles in Eastern Europe arose with so many past invasions. The Greek city states were in war with each other so right from the start there is conflict. Then the Romans came in and messed things up. With the fall of Rome the Slavs moved in and Venice a city state became a power against the Byzantium Empire and the Ottoman Empire that followed. Not much is studied about this part of history. I only realized how much dispute there is in this part of the world and surprised by it as we never touched on this part of history. I was working in a Toronto factory and the Croatian foreman reacted violently to the Serbian engineer. I got scared and thought there might be blood spilled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Venice

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Venetian_Empire

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/...s/a/venice.htm

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=venice

Then there were the plagues during the Huns who killed many people and may have left the dead in the fields instead of burying them thus help create the plague and during the Mongols who did the same with mass killings and left the dead unburied. These plagues decimated the population in the area so the original inhabitants were reduced to a small pool. The Slaves moved in the empty areas and so now we have problems of 'who owns what' and 'who are the rightful people in these lands'?

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## kamani

> Then there were the plagues during the Huns who killed many people and may have left the dead in the fields instead of burying them thus help create the plague and during the Mongols who did the same with mass killings and left the dead unburied. These plagues decimated the population in the area so the original inhabitants were reduced to a small pool. The Slaves moved in the empty areas and so now we have problems of 'who owns what' and 'who are the rightful people in these lands'?


This is what wikipedia says about the plague, it does not seem to have much to do with battlefields:
"The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia, before spreading west. The plague then travelled along the Silk Road and reached the Crimea by 1346. From there, it was probably carried by Oriental rat fleas living on the black rats that were regular passengers on merchant ships. Spreading throughout the Mediterranean and Europe, the Black Death is estimated to have killed 30–60 percent of Europe's population."

and in 1346 the slavs were already in the balkans.

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## Ike

The original question was if there was a difference between Kosovars and Albanians.

The evidence suggest there is. 
People from Kosovo seem to be descendant from Africa (E-V13), while Albanians seem to be descendant from Asian people (J2).

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## gashi91

The main difference could be like studying Haplogroups from Norway and Denmark.

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## gashi91

Or Scandinavian countries, anyway. ***

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## dardanoilir

> Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
> How it's this?


well i can say from my observation that Albanians from Kosovo are far more patriotic than Albanians from Albania, I don't know it if is a cause of the history including the last war in Kosovo or what, but i can see a big difference. One region that is the least mixed with any other race or nationality, is the region of Decan in Kosovo where I come from. now since ppl get married with people of different regions now its hard to find the right sample to study, but again is the least mixed with other races, unless in my case Albanians from montenegro were mixed back then with some other race, cuz my mother's grandmother is native Albanian from montenegro, while my father's side are native of Shkodra and Decan.

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## albanopolis

J1 is 2% among Greeks? What kind of glasses do you use?

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## albanopolis

> some of your thoughts and number areincorrect, 
> 
> for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists, 
> R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!! 
> Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b 
> so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.
> 
> the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome, 
> 
> ...


Its becaming clear that artistic and intelligent greeks of antiquity were J2 people. So were the Phoenicians. Knowing the similarities of greek and phoenician alphabets, shipbuilding technics and science of the time, one comes to conclusion that antic greeks were a different branch of phoenicians. So if one today wants to know how the ancient phoenicians spoke its enough to listen to todays greeks. Why do I conclude that ancient greeks were J2? There are about 20 greek antique God names (Zeus, Afrodita, Athens etc..) that can not be explained with present greek language. But they have perfect explanation in Albanian. The reason? Albanians still use part of Pellasgian language, from which the names of this God's come from. The Pellasgians were E and I people. Albanians are still in large part E and I people even today, which means the pellasgian branch. Had Greeks been E, and I people they would have used Zeus today the way Albanians use. The high presence of J1(10%) in greeks shows that they were in proximity with Arabs (Mesopotamia today, where greeks came from, is a fully arabised region). The isolated regions if greece, like Cyprus, Crete and Sicilia are high in J2. J2 were developed and civilised people so there was no way they would lose their language and pick the language of primitiv Pellasgian. The fact that the places in Albania where greeks had colonies have high rate of J2a. That means todays J2a people in Albania are albanised ancient greeks. The huge discrepancy in dna composition in different regions of greece means that Macedonians are not greeks, but another people. Epirus regardles ethnic cleansing of 500 000 Albanians in 1944 remains largly Albanian by DNA. Had Albanians been J2 originally their distribution of haplogroup would have been even from south to north. So DNA is in fact proving what we have all along knowing that a large albanian element (E,J2b) is present in Greece today, and the eforts of greeks to glorifie their nordic origin is virtually dead, and Greeks were and are a middle eastern inteligent element in the European soil.

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## nordicwarrior

> Life is not fair. Hg N-O-P-R people were born later thus had to occupy cold Central Asia. The less able died in the cold. The survivors were toughened and made smarter. So they moved north (Siberia) east (China) and west (Anatolia then up the Danube) and even south to India. They had it tough. The R1b that took over Europe did not eliminate all the E and G as the Sea People had advanced weapons who could fight off the R1b people on the coastal areas of southern Europe. The Sea People were E, G and I people.


You have my attention with this comment Oriental. Let me challenge you on a couple points though... 1. Just because N-O-P-R were born later doesn't mean that they had to settle in colder climates. To avoid conflict with existing tribes, they may have chosen to move Northward, or they could have stayed put fought for the choice land. The hg D and hg O orientation in modern Japan would be an example of this scenerio. 2. How do you explain hg I1 continued success in the North? 

It's my opinion that all of the cold climate people headed North to avoid initial competition, even Neanderthal did this up to 600,000 years ago. There's no such thing as a free lunch though, and winter conditions did force new genetic coping mechanisms over time.

EDIT-- awkward wording about the winter conditions forcing changes in the DNA (that's not how it works, but changes were "selected" by the cold weather... still awkward sounding, but hopefully you'll catch my drift).

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## kamani

> well i can say from my observation that Albanians from Kosovo are far more patriotic than Albanians from Albania, I don't know it if is a cause of the history including the last war in Kosovo or what, but i can see a big difference.


I have seen patriots and traitors at an equal amount in both actually, but patriotism does not come from y-dna. Genetically speaking, R1a of this area is not all slavic, some of it is very old from the first illyrian settlers who were probably a mix of I1 and R1a.

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## Dianatomia

> Its becaming clear that artistic and intelligent greeks of antiquity were J2 people. So were the Phoenicians. Knowing the similarities of greek and phoenician alphabets, shipbuilding technics and science of the time, one comes to conclusion that antic greeks were a different branch of phoenicians. So if one today wants to know how the ancient phoenicians spoke its enough to listen to todays greeks. Why do I conclude that ancient greeks were J2? There are about 20 greek antique God names (Zeus, Afrodita, Athens etc..) that can not be explained with present greek language. But they have perfect explanation in Albanian. The reason? Albanians still use part of Pellasgian language, from which the names of this God's come from. The Pellasgians were E and I people. Albanians are still in large part E and I people even today, which means the pellasgian branch. Had Greeks been E, and I people they would have used Zeus today the way Albanians use. The high presence of J1(10%) in greeks shows that they were in proximity with Arabs (Mesopotamia today, where greeks came from, is a fully arabised region). The isolated regions if greece, like Cyprus, Crete and Sicilia are high in J2. J2 were developed and civilised people so there was no way they would lose their language and pick the language of primitiv Pellasgian. The fact that the places in Albania where greeks had colonies have high rate of J2a. That means todays J2a people in Albania are albanised ancient greeks. The huge discrepancy in dna composition in different regions of greece means that Macedonians are not greeks, but another people. Epirus regardles ethnic cleansing of 500 000 Albanians in 1944 remains largly Albanian by DNA. Had Albanians been J2 originally their distribution of haplogroup would have been even from south to north. So DNA is in fact proving what we have all along knowing that a large albanian element (E,J2b) is present in Greece today, and the eforts of greeks to glorifie their nordic origin is virtually dead, and Greeks were and are a middle eastern inteligent element in the European soil.


I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans. 

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...explained.html

Lastly, just recently a burial of Ancient Athens was discovered and many ancient Greek remains have been excavated. It turns out that the variety of cranial morphology of the types in Ancient Athens is very similar to the current inhabitants of Greece. The same research also found that many Ancient Athenians died of typhoid fever. The face of a twelve year old girl called Myrtis has been reconstructed. 

This is for Greek speakers only. 



Now, to what extent the Albanians got the J2a from the Greeks, I can not tell. Neither can I confirm weather J2 people are more artistic than E-V13 people. But E-V13 was most certainly present in ancient Greece.

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## kamani

> I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans. 
> 
> http://dienekes...


dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.

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## Yetos

> dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.


No,

most sources agree that came maritime, 
archaiological evidences place it around 2000 Bc Konya minor Asia, 

it has almost zero variances means that is new,
if was >8000 old how many diversities could give?

to understand E-V13 in Balkans,
1) no archaiological found before +- 2000 BC
2) almost Zero diversities in high peaks,
3) most variances are in south Greece, except one that is Bosna, while Albania and Kossovo show no diversity,

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## kamani

> No,
> 
> most sources agree that came maritime, 
> archaiological evidences place it around 2000 Bc Konya minor Asia, 
> 
> it has almost zero variances means that is new,
> if was >8000 old how many diversities could give?
> 
> to understand E-V13 in Balkans,
> ...


well.. no, it's older than 2000 bc,
however this has been discussed extensively in this and other threads, if you want to be convinced.

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## Dianatomia

> dienekes is a personal blog operated by a greek guy, so it might be just a little bias when it comes to talking about greece. Most sources agree that E - v13 has been in the balkans since the neolithic, but nobody is sure where it came from and where was the higher density. Current diversity is also disputable where is the highest, some sources say it is bosnia-montenegro area (read above in this thread). Needless to say both Illyrians and Mychaneans/Dorians found it there when they came, so it is neither albanian nor greek but ancestral to both.


When I claim that there is more variety of E-V13 in Greece, it is because the 'sources' Dienekes publishes (and which are credible) point out to that. Not because Dienekes says so. Now, Dienekes can draw conclusions from that, but it is not his conclusions I am referring to. 

I never said that E-V13 is Greek. It is neither Greek nor Illyrian, but it was there for a long time and the Ancient Greeks had it.

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## albanopolis

> I believe this has been mentioned before, but more variety of haplogroup E-V13 is Greece than in Albania, which means that E-V13 could not have come from Albanians to Greece, but the way around. Second, some regions in Greece, like Thessaly, have higher amounts of haplogroup E-V13 than is found among Albanians. Also, E-V13 seems to be much older in Greece than in other parts of the Balkans. 
> 
> http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...explained.html
> 
> Lastly, just recently a burial of Ancient Athens was discovered and many ancient Greek remains have been excavated. It turns out that the variety of cranial morphology of the types in Ancient Athens is very similar to the current inhabitants of Greece. The same research also found that many Ancient Athenians died of typhoid fever. The face of a twelve year old girl called Myrtis has been reconstructed. 
> 
> This is for Greek speakers only. 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course E-v13 has been present always in Greece all the times. They were a componenet of the Pellasgians who inhabited the region at the earliest times. So the earliest inhabitants of Greece,Albania,Turkey were the same, But taking into account the high development of Greece at antique times, its reasonable to think that these people were not E-v13. Had they been E-v13 then the Illyrians would have been at least equally developed. What seperates today's Albanians from Greeks is J2a of Greeeks from J2b of Albanians. So reasonably enough J2a were the advanced people of antiquity that are responsable for present day greek language and culture,

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## Malsori

> Of course E-v13 has been present always in Greece all the times. They were a componenet of the Pellasgians who inhabited the region at the earliest times. So the earliest inhabitants of Greece,Albania,Turkey were the same, But taking into account the high development of Greece at antique times, its reasonable to think that these people were not E-v13. Had they been E-v13 then the Illyrians would have been at least equally developed. What seperates today's Albanians from Greeks is J2a of Greeeks from J2b of Albanians. So reasonably enough J2a were the advanced people of antiquity that are responsable for present day greek language and culture,


I think your logic is flawed. What about the J2a peak among Chechens and other Kavkaz nations? Why they were/are not advanced?

Y-DNA doesn't play any role when success or failure on culture/economy comes in hand.

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## albanopolis

Its not one size fits all Malsori!!! Being J2a means that there are numerous subclades. Obviously subclade of greeks and Kavkaz is not the same. Albanians and Berbers are the same haplogroup but different subclades. And you must know the difference. Same stand for Greeks. Developed Greeks of antiquity were somewhere in Anatolia until they populated Egean Islands. So I am thoroughly convinced that J2a in Ballkans and mediterranian is from advanced Greeks. If you see there is not much difference in haplogroup terms amang Albanians and Greeks with the exception of J2a, AND THIS j2a makes us two seperate nations with two seperate languages, with some common words as heretage of our common Pellasg ancestry,

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## albanopolis

Good news. Kosovo opened the first forensic laboratory in the Albanian territories. It was a donation of the American government. The staff was trained by american specialists. The primary purpose of the laboratory was identification of war victims. A consequence of this laboratory will be a trusted source of the DNA of Albanians. It will take a little time though until we have the first publications.

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## adamo

Is there a difference between Albanians and Kosovo Albanians? Well, yes. Kosovo Albanians have an additional 30% E3b, putting their total to about 50% E3b. Patrilineally, they are a gold mine of E-V13 and other forms of north-African blood, whereas the "standard" Albanians genetic "pie" is more split up between different elements distributed more equally: 15-20% R1b, 10-15% R1a, 10-20% of different I subclades on a national level, 20-30% E3b ( with Macedonian Albanians being closer to 40%, Kosovo Albanians 50%), 20-25% J , etc.

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## Yaan

> Is there a difference between Albanians and Kosovo Albanians? Well, yes. Kosovo Albanians have an additional 30% E3b, putting their total to about 50% E3b. Patrilineally, they are a gold mine of E-V13 and other forms of north-African blood, whereas the "standard" Albanians genetic "pie" is more split up between different elements distributed more equally: 15-20% R1b, 10-15% R1a, 10-20% of different I subclades on a national level, 20-30% E3b ( with Macedonian Albanians being closer to 40%, Kosovo Albanians 50%), 20-25% J , etc.


E-V13 is a hard core European group,that is not North African, I do not know why ur approach is so strange. If E-V13 people are North African, then R1a people are Central Asian and R1b are Anadolian. E-V13 in the Balkan is there before R1b and R1a so it is local. E-V13 is Balkan, with parent somewhere in Anadolia or just Balkan!

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## adamo

Yeah i know ll, but it originated the Macro-haplogroup E, in continental Africa and within E, E-V13 is derived from the egyptoid-Libyan E-M78 parent Clade...that's all I'm trying to say, E-V13 may be linked to the Balkans which it is, but its parent Clade is linked to north-Africa and continental Africa even earlier, during the early stages of E. and saying that R1, wether R1a or R1b is linked to Anatolia is just ludicrous nonsense.....neither of these two branches of R1 ever arrived in Anatolia, unless MUCH later, for example Galatians that brought some R1b to Anatolia in more recent times. R1a/R1b people are not central Asian, but their R1 father was...that's kind of the point of what I'm saying about E being African....it originated there, as R1a and R1b originated in the central Asian Russian steppes but then moved into Europe. E is linked to continental Africa, but the father of E-V13 ( E-M78 ) is linked more recently to the Egypt/Libya region of Africa in particular. This is from where these men launched to the levant and then arrived in the Balkans.

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## Yaan

> Yeah i know ll, but it originated the Macro-haplogroup E, in continental Africa and within E, E-V13 is derived from the egyptoid-Libyan E-M78 parent Clade...that's all I'm trying to say, E-V13 may be linked to the Balkans which it is, but its parent Clade is linked to north-Africa and continental Africa even earlier, during the early stages of E. and saying that R1, wether R1a or R1b is linked to Anatolia is just ludicrous nonsense.....neither of these two branches of R1 ever arrived in Anatolia, unless MUCH later, for example Galatians that brought some R1b to Anatolia in more recent times. R1a/R1b people are not central Asian, but their R1 father was...that's kind of the point of what I'm saying about E being African....it originated there, as R1a and R1b originated in the central Asian Russian steppes but then moved into Europe. E is linked to continental Africa, but the father of E-V13 ( E-M78 ) is linked more recently to the Egypt/Libya region of Africa in particular. This is from where these men launched to the levant and then arrived in the Balkans.


R1a in Europe is European, but the father is from Central Asia
R1b in Europe is European but the father is from Anadolia 
E-V13 is European, but the father is from Levant/Egypt 
so E-V13 is as North African as R1a Central Asian
All people originate in African, but if we need to chose who is more old in Europe E-V13 or R1b, it is off course E-V13. But the whole thing is wrong, but always when somebody calls European genes as E-V13,J2b2 or G2a non European I would be here to set him straight and call R1b Anadolian

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## adamo

The father of R1b is in Central Asia.......with R1a, that's where father R1 originated. G2a or P15 movement came from the Caucasus into turkey through Greece, across to south Italy and then to Sardinia after that, it's the European branch of hg G, yes. J2b is Greco-Albanian, distributed in the Balkans similarly to the earlier E-V13. R1b is Western European and R1a Eastern European, they are both linked to Central Asia by R1.

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## Yaan

So if E-V13 is North African, R1a is Central Asian and R1b is Anadolian. R1 is Central Asia, but R1b people come to Europe from Anadolia. But some people with no knowladge thing that E-V13 come from Middle East but R1b come from heaven, which is not the truth. G2a and E-V13 and J2b2 is in Europe before R1b and R1a, E-V13 and J2b2 are born in Europe, I do not argue that the fathers come from Levant and Mesopotamia, but if u r going to insult E-V13 and J2b2 as being non European, say the same for R1b and R1a or say nothing. 
I1,I2a and I2b are European 
N1c,E-V13,G2a and J2b2 have root elsewhere but are born here 
and that brings us to the newest Europeans R1a and R1b 
But of course all of the above are hard core European. Just in the North there was no people or really few people so the new groups are dominant there, while in the Balkan and Italy and Central Europe and Anadolia and Scandinavia(different case there, but still I1 and N1c are older than R1a and R1b) there is civilizations so the old groups also stayed.

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## adamo

No...r1b did not come from Anatolia to Europe, haplogroup I did. R1b came from Central Asia to Eastern Europe finally arriving later in Western Europe. And what's "insulting" about having a haplogroup that dominates middle eastern or North African people's? Your a rarity in Europe you should consider it an honour.

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## Yaan

> No...r1b did not come from Anatolia to Europe, haplogroup I did. R1b came from Central Asia to Eastern Europe finally arriving later in Western Europe. And what's "insulting" about having a haplogroup that dominates middle eastern or North African people's? Your a rarity in Europe you should consider it an honour.


1. I is European! 
2. R1b come from Anadolia
3. I am not speaking about my haplogorup and I do consider it an honor
4. E-V13 is not African, it is seen only in Europe, outside Europe only in Turks(but it comes from Albanians,Bulgarians and Serbs), Jews but really low and Druze, not observed in North Africa 
5. It is insulting coz this forum is full with people with no knowalde that say that if u r not R1b u have high chance of beeing gay, u r not a real man.Hmmm I wish this guys come to fight with Bulgarians,Serbs and Albos then we see who the man. 
6. For the last time E-V13 does not dominate anywhere but in part of South East ,South and Central Europe. E-78 I am not speaking, I care only about E-V13

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## Yetos

> 1. I is European! 
> 2. R1b come from Anadolia
> 3. I am not speaking about my haplogorup and I do consider it an honor
> 4. E-V13 is not African, it is seen only in Europe, outside Europe only in Turks(but it comes from Albanians,Bulgarians and Serbs), Jews but really low and Druze, not observed in North Africa 
> 5. It is insulting coz this forum is full with people with no knowalde that say that if u r not R1b u have high chance of beeing gay, u r not a real man.Hmmm I wish this guys come to fight with Bulgarians,Serbs and Albos then we see who the man. 
> 6. For the last time E-V13 does not dominate anywhere but in part of South East ,South and Central Europe. E-78 I am not speaking, I care only about E-V13



so do we have *PARTHENOGENESIS* OF E-V13 in Balkans?

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## adamo

I know I is European but it arrived to Europe via Anatolia to the southern Balkans Bosnian refuge. E-V13 is not African but its the son of north-east African E-M78. R1b did not come from "Anadolia" E-V13 does not dominate in parts of Central Europe, only in the southern Balkans.

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## Yaan

I did not come from Anadolia, his father IJ which is totally different was from Mesopotamia
E-V13 is European, nobody here is talking about E-M78, we discuss about E-V13
South Balkans is Greece, E-V13 is big in West and East Balkans, in South somewhere 
Most Central European countries have 10% which is huge, do not make mistake that West Europe have 60-70% of R1b they have 20-30 of one kind of R1b and then of another, so each nation is like 3-4 dominating things, but in the case of West Europe it is different kinds of R1b

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## adamo

I migrated to the southern Balkans via Anatolia.

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## Yaan

> I migrated to the southern Balkans via Anatolia.


South Balkans is Greece the south and I is really small there it is 20-25% in Eastern Balkans and 35-40% in Western Balkans, and I is not from Anatolia. From Anatolia is R1b

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## adamo

I came to the Bosnia/Herzegovina region of the Balkans via Anatolia.

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## Yaan

> I came to the Bosnia/Herzegovina region of the Balkans via Anatolia.


I disagree strongly :) 
I is from the Balkan(later I1 Scandinavia, I2a1 Sardinia, I2a2 Balkan(but maybe Central Europe) 
J1 - Kavkaz 
J2- Mesopotamia (J2b2 Balkan,J2a4b Kavkaz,J2a4h Iran)
E1b1b- Levant(E-V13 Balkan) 
R1a- Central Asia(sublades later originate in Poland,Ukraine, Scandinavia)
N- East Asia- N1c( Baltic region)
R1b - Anatolia(sublades later originate in North West Europe, Iberia etc)

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## adamo

The bulk of R1b ( M343 ) can be seen on any map moving from Central Asia towards Western Europe. It borough with it to Western Europe u152, l21, s21, ( s21 and the sons of s116) etc. L23 separated from the bulk of m343 near the Pontic steppe and ended up in the Middle East and certain portions of Russia/Ukraine and some of it got from Middle East to Balkans Europe ( Bulgaria etc). L11, m412, m529 virtually every other r1b sub group of father M343 ended up in Europe or Western Europe via Central Asia. Other than m73 or l23, r1b did not enter Europe via Anatolia but by the central Asian grasslands highway with the m343. I is from Balkans, yes. It then migrated north to Scandinavia, we know. But it came to Balkans, at first, via Anatolia. I am not saying I is Anatolian, actually it sure is NOT. It is European, but it reached the Balkans ( from where it would spread in continental Europe causing gravettian culture) from Anatolia. I agree with all you say on I, it comes from Balkans, but arrived in Europe, from Anatolia. It is characteristically Balkan though, I2a in particular and I1a is Scandinavian, I get this, we both do.

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## albanopolis

What's the big deal if E-v13 is North African. It makes the carriers of E-V13 participants in every developed civilization. But the evidence is that the marker e-v13 originated in the Balkans, and as such it makes it European marker.

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## adamo

It is European for gods sake. It just arrived to Europe from north-east African migration to levant and then the Balkans. That's what E-M78 did. Some time after reaching the Balkans the E-V13 mutation took place.

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## Beast

> some of your thoughts and number areincorrect, 
> 
> for example R1b could be risen at roman empire from roman legions or roman colonists, 
> R1a is still strange for me, I don't believe that entered at Slavic migration cause that means that R1a slavicise all balkans so to become Greek? !!!! 
> Greece has more J2a than Albania which has more J2b 
> so it is the more details like DYS etc which can help realize.
> 
> the E hg is strange case since is connecting with Cyprus and Phoenicians and Kadmeians it seems that was a population entered at balkans from Greece but at archaic times another wave went to Albania which took mountains at Illyrian wars with rome, 
> 
> ...


I have to disagree.

Albanians did not cooperate with Ottomans. Many of them were converted but some of the greatest Albanian warriors who were muslims were AGAINST ottomans. for example Azem Galica. The Serbs and Greeks were on the same team as Ottomans. they even killed Albanian politicians with the support of the Ottomans. because Albanians were very rebelious and going against Ottomans all the time..... the Albanian you are talking about was a guy working for the Ottomans, Ali Pasha. He wasn't fighting for Albanian idependence from Ottoman empire, he was fighting also against Albanians in south albania. He was an OTTOMAN. But you call him Albanian? Yes his origin was Albanian? but he wasn't fighting for an Albanian cause, he was pro-ottoman. the Albanian cause: see: Albanian national awakening' came later. But what about all the greeks that also worked for Ottomans? What about Murad II ?? Why do greeks call all their muslim population turks when they are not turks but greeks? Some of the first Ottoman servants were greeks. Serbs and Greeks are very good at hiding their collaboration with Ottoman forces and blame it on Albanians. what about your population exchange with Turkey? Atleast Albanians are not trying to hide anything. Albanians were under Ottomans but there was a period called ''Albanian national awakening'' when Albanians started rebelling against Ottomans again and fight for independence, it happened around 19th century - early 20th century. At this point in time you had Serbs working together with Ottomans to stop Albanians because they were promised Kosovo and other lands by the Ottomans.

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## Yetos

> I have to disagree.
> 
> Albanians did not cooperate with Ottomans. Many of them were converted but some of the greatest Albanian warriors who were muslims were AGAINST ottomans. for example Azem Galica. The Serbs and Greeks were on the same team as Ottomans. they even killed Albanian politicians with the support of the Ottomans. because Albanians were very rebelious and going against Ottomans all the time..... the Albanian you are talking about was a guy working for the Ottomans, Ali Pasha. He wasn't fighting for Albanian idependence from Ottoman empire, he was fighting also against Albanians in south albania. He was an OTTOMAN. But you call him Albanian? Yes his origin was Albanian? but he wasn't fighting for an Albanian cause, he was pro-ottoman. the Albanian cause: see: Albanian national awakening' came later. But what about all the greeks that also worked for Ottomans? What about Murad II ?? Why do greeks call all their muslim population turks when they are not turks but greeks? Some of the first Ottoman servants were greeks. Serbs and Greeks are very good at hiding their collaboration with Ottoman forces and blame it on Albanians. what about your population exchange with Turkey? Atleast Albanians are not trying to hide anything. Albanians were under Ottomans but there was a period called ''Albanian national awakening'' when Albanians started rebelling against Ottomans again and fight for independence, it happened around 19th century - early 20th century. At this point in time you had Serbs working together with Ottomans to stop Albanians because they were promised Kosovo and other lands by the Ottomans.


your imagination is big,

remember Ismael Vlore and the demand by some in Constantinople to name Albania as West Turkey,
also remember the Greek Revolt, who served Ottomans?
just read the story of Messologgi.
inside 1500 Arvanites and 7000 Greeks (children and women included) 
outside 10000 Albanians soldiers at the command of Ottomans.
and also in 1912 in Makedonian struggle? why 90% of Turkish army were Albanians?
Arnauts were the main bone structure of Ottomans army West of modern Thrace,
from AustroHungarian borders Croatia to some times even Egypt, cause even in Egypt they served as Ottoman's army
only in my place Turks build a monsk and a school for Albanian military officer kids.

Pomaks of Rodopi also converted to Islam, but did not serve Turkish/Ottoman army.

----------


## kamani

why would an Albanian orthodox or catholic cooperate with the Ottomans? They were all on the Greek side when you got your indipendence.

----------


## Beast

> your imagination is big,
> 
> remember Ismael Vlore and the demand by some in Constantinople to name Albania as West Turkey,
> also remember the Greek Revolt, who served Ottomans?
> just read the story of Messologgi.
> inside 1500 Arvanites and 7000 Greeks (children and women included) 
> outside 10000 Albanians soldiers at the command of Ottomans.
> and also in 1912 in Makedonian struggle? why 90% of Turkish army were Albanians?
> Arnauts were the main bone structure of Ottomans army West of modern Thrace,
> ...


Why are you mixing up things here? Arvanites was greek word to refer to Albanians, it was Albanian Christians. Souliotes = Albanian orthodox Christians. the turkish word for Albanian is Arnavut. very similar. the arvanite call themselves Arbereshe... and there are also Arbereshe in Italy, the italians call them Albanesi which means 'Albanian' . Some of the biggest Albanian nationalists have been Arbereshe, and they were a part of the Albanian national awakening. there is a very good job done by greeks and serbs on the internet to claim the opposite. 

now you may take it as you want it. the ''ALBANIANS'' that were fighting against them were Pro Ottomans, just like many greeks that were Ottomans. or have you forgotten?... it's funny how you call the Greeks that were pro ottomans as turks, but the Albanians that were pro Ottomans are ALBANIANS? and for this it's to be blamed on all Albanians? like they didn't terrorize other albanians? it's like many Norwegians were on the nazi side, but many were against.

You're wrong. The first to collaborate with Ottomans were Greeks, after constantinople. the early Ottoman army was actually Greek Ottomans. then later came Albanians, Serbs, Bosnians. 

if Albanians were so pro-ottoman, why did they revolt against them even after Skanderbegs death??


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Revolt_of_1910
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albani...3%E2%80%931839
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Revolt_of_1912

Because some Albanians went on Ottoman side? you insist they spoke on behalf of every albanian? you think Ali Pasha tepelena spoke on behalf of all Albanians? he was an Ottoman servant....EVERY nation had people that went on Ottoman side, greeks, serbs, bosnians etc. at the same time you had people that were against them.

If Albanians wanted to name Albania west turkey, why the hell were they fighting for independence from Ottomans? Why were they fighting to unite Kosovo with Albania? but Ottoman forces wanted to put a stop on Albanian revolts, so they cooperated with Serbs and had many Albanians that were for independence, killed. for example Mother Theresa's father was poisoned by Serbs. Why they kill Haxhi Zeka?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haxhi_Zeka

if you're going to say that Albanians that were pro-ottoman represented Albanians, don't forget the pro Ottoman greeks too, ok? Greeks have done a very good job on hiding their muslim population, even going as far as to deport them. Just because you're a muslim doesn't mean you're a turk or pro Ottoman either. People converted to not pay taxes, after generations it became their religion, does that mean they want their own country conquered by others? Unless you see religion first, and nation 2nd... This is the difference between you greeks and us. for you, religion comes first. that's why you do population exchanges. the greek nation is based on greek orthodoxy

and west turkey? Why would somebody fight for independence and then name it after the enemies country? talk about contradicting yourself.

You mean Ismail Qemail? he never said that.


What you greeks and serbs don't understand is that you can't teach us our history, there was a time in Albanian history called ''Albanian national awakening'' it was the time when it was Albanians forgetting their religions and unite and fight for their country and people FIRST, religion came 2nd. after skanderbegs death, albanians tried to fight, managed to for a time, but lost in the end again... this was a fight against the biggest and most powerful army in the world, most of the time we were outnumbered.. yet there are places were Ottomans never managed to step in, a battle in malesia, 3,000 albanians lead by a WOMAN, against 30,000 Ottomans, a battle which Ottomans lost....after Skanderbegs death, hundreds of years went by until Albanians started to WAKE UP AGAIN. see: Albanian national awakening. The Albanians that liberated greece were orthodox christians. they put religion first.. that's wh_y_ im saying the greek nation is based on orthodoxy, so many other ethnicities have easily asimilated into the greek population just because of sharing the same religion. the greek nation is the opposite of turkey, who are united under islam, even though the genepool consists of many ethnicities. Turkey was founded by Qemal attaturk, they didn't want anything to do with the Ottoman empire either.

Because Ottomans had many Albanian warriors these represent all Albanians? So Quisling represented all Norwegians? I know some of the greatest Ottoman warriors were Albanians... despite the fact that there were just as many Serbs, Bosnians and Greeks in the Ottoman army. Some of the greatest warriors fighting against Ottomans were also Albanians.

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## Yetos

> why would an Albanian orthodox or catholic cooperate with the Ottomans? They were all on the Greek side when you got your indipendence.



wrong. 

read Greek revolt history, 

especially Mesologgi Μεσολογκι massacre

----------


## Yetos

> Why are you mixing up things here? Arvanites was greek word to refer to Albanians, it was Albanian Christians. Souliotes = Albanian orthodox Christians. the turkish word for Albanian is Arnavut. very similar. the arvanite call themselves Arbereshe... and there are also Arbereshe in Italy, the italians call them Albanesi which means 'Albanian' . Some of the biggest Albanian nationalists have been Arbereshe, and they were a part of the Albanian national awakening. there is a very good job done by greeks and serbs on the internet to claim the opposite. 
> 
> now you may take it as you want it. the ''ALBANIANS'' that were fighting against them were Pro Ottomans, just like many greeks that were Ottomans. or have you forgotten?... it's funny how you call the Greeks that were pro ottomans as turks, but the Albanians that were pro Ottomans are ALBANIANS? and for this it's to be blamed on all Albanians? like they didn't terrorize other albanians? it's like many Norwegians were on the nazi side, but many were against.
> 
> You're wrong. The first to collaborate with Ottomans were Greeks, after constantinople. the early Ottoman army was actually Greek Ottomans. then later came Albanians, Serbs, Bosnians. 
> 
> if Albanians were so pro-ottoman, why did they revolt against them even after Skanderbegs death??
> 
> 
> ...


the story gives Muslimization and Turkization of population after Crusades and Mazikert battle, 
until that day the areas that cinsidered Greek were strong cores, 
muslimization in Balkans starts centuries after Adrianoupolis (Edirne) mainly the times Pomaks start to convert.
until 1460 we see no convert to Islam from other populations, 
after that started a massive convert, 
remember Vallavan Pasha was Muslim, and in the Suleiman campaign to Austria the composition of Ottomans army,
about Greek revolt
except Messologgi, read also the 'roast' of Αθασιος Διακος.

Now about Arberesh,
until 1939 was Piana del Greci, Musolini changed it in order to political connect with Albania.

Kangoure Arbanites are modern Greeks from an Albanian origin of 1200.
Souliotes were a mix of Arbanites, Serbs, Greeks, Aromani, that created a kind of military democracy/oligarchy (patrias)
SOULIOTES WERE NOT ALBANIANS, WERE A CONFEDERATION of ARBANITES, SERBS, GREEKS, AROMANI-VLACHS.
SOULIOTES WERE SLAIN BY ALBANIANS.

in messologgi, inside and outside and all letters/information and treaty proposals were in Albanian, cause inside were some Suliotes and Arbanites, and outside Arnauts under Turkish command.

in 1912 the borders among Turkey and Greece was at Olymp mountain.
search why there is an Albanian tekke, and an Albanian school (Turkish language) in Katerini in a land that never Albanians resident.

and better ask your shelve, who fought in Mpizani, and why Ismael Vlore almost broke with Kemal Attaturk about that,
Kemal wanted the arc Edirne-Pomaks-Goranje-Kossovo Albania, and only after pressure from Austrians/Italians Albania took that name in pappers, cause it was to be Western Turkey.
all is written in the newspapper that Vlore published that times.

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## LeBrok

Now, let's find some commonalities and positive sides in Greeks and Albanians, just to see if it is possible to live side by side in peace.

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## Olgerk

> the story gives Muslimization and Turkization of population after Crusades and Mazikert battle, 
> until that day the areas that cinsidered Greek were strong cores, 
> muslimization in Balkans starts centuries after Adrianoupolis (Edirne) mainly the times Pomaks start to convert.
> until 1460 we see no convert to Islam from other populations, 
> after that started a massive convert, 
> remember Vallavan Pasha was Muslim, and in the Suleiman campaign to Austria the composition of Ottomans army,
> about Greek revolt
> except Messologgi, read also the 'roast' of Αθασιος Διακος.
> 
> ...



It was called Piana dei Greci because of the Orthodox religion, but they spoke and speak the Langauge of the Gods ( Gjuhën e Zotave): Albanian!

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## Olgerk

Yes you can find a lot in common, and since the '90 (not to mention before) in Greece emigrated more than 500.000 Albanians.

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## Yetos

> It was called Piana dei Greci because of the Orthodox religion, but they spoke and speak the Langauge of the Gods ( Gjuhën e Zotave): Albanian!


Gods another who believes stupid propaganda, and never search good, 

ARBERESH NEVER STEP IN ALBANIA, 

THEY WERE IN South ITALY, THEY FOLLOWED MANIAKIS ARMY GENERAL, THEY MOVED SOUTH AND THEN WENT TO SICILY.

IN THEIR TRADITIONALS SONGS NO MENTION ABOUT ALBANIA. WHY? SEARCH GOOD.

Arberesh and Mianiakis are connected, search why. and leave stupidity that Albanians officers tell you.

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## Yetos

> Yes you can find a lot in common, and since the '90 (not to mention before) in Greece emigrated more than 500.000 Albanians.


nope, 

1 500 000, but all work Illegal, and most return and renter and back and again etc, 
only in Greek prisons are 60 000 and now with the new treaty and the effort of Albania to enter EU most will be transfered to Albania.

from the above 300 000 are Greeks and Aromani

search the data of FRONTEX

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## Boss

> Yes you can find a lot in common, and since the '90 (not to mention before) in Greece emigrated more than 500.000 Albanians.


I am not sure how the fact that many Albanians migrated to Greece translates to Albanians and Greeks having a lot in common.

Albanian immigrants have not had an easy time in Greece (nor have they assimilated effortlessly) but things are getting better despite the recent anti-immigration sentiments.

All people in the Balkans share certain things in common due to the Ottoman Empire. Most of them however consider that period to be a black spot in an otherwise spotless/glorious/whatever history so they rarely focus on it (except to denounce it). 

That's true in Greece at least.

Oh yeah btw, Yetos = typical Greek. Δεν έχεις βαρεθεί να προπαγανδίζεις;

----------


## Olgerk

> Gods another who believes stupid propaganda, and never search good, 
> 
> ARBERESH NEVER STEP IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> THEY WERE IN South ITALY, THEY FOLLOWED MANIAKIS ARMY GENERAL, THEY MOVED SOUTH AND THEN WENT TO SICILY.
> 
> IN THEIR TRADITIONALS SONGS NO MENTION ABOUT ALBANIA. WHY? SEARCH GOOD.
> 
> Arberesh and Mianiakis are connected, search why. and leave stupidity that Albanians officers tell you.


You are INSANE! This is for sure. You are more indoctrinated than a islamic terrorist. How can someone deny FACTS, they escaped from the turks after the invasion of the Arbër Principates and after the death of our hero Gjergj Kastrioti Skënderbeu, the Atleta Christi. At that time we had two main religions, catholic in the north and orthodox in the south, and the fact that Arbëresh are Christians doesn't change the fact that they are Albanian and they still have preserved Albanian language, which is more archaic compared to modern Albanian and old traditions, costumes, music etc. 
Aleksandër do you know what it means in Albanian? - a le si andra - is born like a dream
you are just another brainwashed Greek terrorist!

----------


## Olgerk

> I am not sure how the fact that many Albanians migrated to Greece translates to Albanians and Greeks having a lot in common.
> 
> Albanian immigrants have not had an easy time in Greece (nor have they assimilated effortlessly) but things are getting better despite the recent anti-immigration sentiments.
> 
> All people in the Balkans share certain things in common due to the Ottoman Empire. Most of them however consider that period to be a black spot in an otherwise spotless/glorious/whatever history so they rarely focus on it (except to denounce it). 
> 
> That's true in Greece at least.
> 
> Oh yeah btw, Yetos = typical Greek. Δεν έχεις βαρεθεί να προπαγανδίζεις;


Have you ever heard of Arvanites. They were Christian in south Albania that spoke Albanian, but the same as the Arbëresh fleed from the turks and settled in what is now Greek territory, as to that time there wweren't boundaries. The hellenisation of this people was very fast mostly because of the religion. 
And of course we share a lot of things together, but I can't stand when nationalists like Yetos make so much propaganda.

----------


## Olgerk

> nope, 
> 
> 1 500 000, but all work Illegal, and most return and renter and back and again etc, 
> only in Greek prisons are 60 000 and now with the new treaty and the effort of Albania to enter EU most will be transfered to Albania.
> 
> from the above 300 000 are Greeks and Aromani
> 
> search the data of FRONTEX



Yetos I am half Catholic and half Orthodox Albanian, and I consider myself half Illyrian and half Epirot!

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## Olgerk

It is all documented by the Albanian Catholic Priest and historian Marin Barleti in his book "The history of Gjergj Kastrioti" in 15th century.

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## Luan

> Gods another who believes stupid propaganda, and never search good, 
> 
> ARBERESH NEVER STEP IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> THEY WERE IN South ITALY, THEY FOLLOWED MANIAKIS ARMY GENERAL, THEY MOVED SOUTH AND THEN WENT TO SICILY.
> 
> IN THEIR TRADITIONALS SONGS NO MENTION ABOUT ALBANIA. WHY? SEARCH GOOD.
> 
> Arberesh and Mianiakis are connected, search why. and leave stupidity that Albanians officers tell you.


"Arberesh never step in Albanian"? what in the world are you talking about. Leave the stupidity that Greeks officers tell you or the Golden Dawn.

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## Luan

> Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
> How it's this?


I made a thread of Albanian Autosomal Dna, you can look at it. I have 80% south european Tuscan, and 20% Europe(Various subcontienents).

----------


## Boss

> Have you ever heard of Arvanites. They were Christian in south Albania that spoke Albanian, but the same as the Arbëresh fleed from the turks and settled in what is now Greek territory, as to that time there wweren't boundaries. The hellenisation of this people was very fast mostly because of the religion. 
> And of course we share a lot of things together, but I can't stand when nationalists like Yetos make so much propaganda.


Of course I've heard of the Arvanites and I don't deny that parts of Southern Greece (mainly Attica and the Peloponnese) were settled by Albanians (I know "Byzantine" Emperors who wrote about the Albanian migrations).

What I did say was that the example you gave (Albanians migrating to Greece in the 90s) hardly shows that there any commonalities. As I said, I think most Balkan peoples share some things in common mainly due to the fact that all the Orthodox Christians in the Ottoman Empire belonged to a single "millet" whose head was the Patriach of Constantinople. As a result, generally speaking, all the different Balkan post-Ottoman cultures have things in common.

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## Eldritch

> I made a thread of Albanian Autosomal Dna, you can look at it. I have 80% south european Tuscan, and 20% Europe(Various subcontienents).


I see in your profile the flag of Kosovo, are you aware how other countymen of yours score into the autosomal aspect?

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## Olgerk

> Of course I've heard of the Arvanites and I don't deny that parts of Southern Greece (mainly Attica and the Peloponnese) were settled by Albanians (I know "Byzantine" Emperors who wrote about the Albanian migrations).
> 
> What I did say was that the example you gave (Albanians migrating to Greece in the 90s) hardly shows that there any commonalities. As I said, I think most Balkan peoples share some things in common mainly due to the fact that all the Orthodox Christians in the Ottoman Empire belonged to a single "millet" whose head was the Patriach of Constantinople. As a result, generally speaking, all the different Balkan post-Ottoman cultures have things in common.


I just wanted to say we have in common (genetically speaking) with Greeks of Albanian heritage.

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## Yetos

> "Arberesh never step in Albanian"? what in the world are you talking about. Leave the stupidity that Greeks officers tell you or the Golden Dawn.


Correct Luan, 
Arberesh even in Genetics are Italians, their only connection with Albania is their language which is consider mainly or partialy ALlbanian, in the history of Arberesh they never settled in Albania, 

they were in South Italy in 1000 AD, they revolt against Con/ple following Maniakis, they settle south Peloponese around Maniaki village, after thessaloniki battle, and from there migrated to Italy, after Barbarosa admiral ruin their villages and towers.

read their story, even genetically they share almost nothing with Balkans,

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## Yetos

> I just wanted to say we have in common (genetically speaking) with Greeks of Albanian heritage.


How sure you are that is not the oposite?

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## Luan

> I see in your profile the flag of Kosovo, are you aware how other countymen of yours score into the autosomal aspect?


Yes there is another Albanian from kosova who came out very similar. His was 77 south European Tuscan and 23 other European. You can see the thread on here. Go to the autosomal section and look.

----------


## Luan

> Correct Luan, 
> Arberesh even in Genetics are Italians, their only connection with Albania is their language which is consider mainly or partialy ALlbanian, in the history of Arberesh they never settled in Albania, 
> 
> they were in South Italy in 1000 AD, they revolt against Con/ple following Maniakis, they settle south Peloponese around Maniaki village, after thessaloniki battle, and from there migrated to Italy, after Barbarosa admiral ruin their villages and towers.
> 
> read their story, even genetically they share almost nothing with Balkans,


The arberesh are the albanians that went to Italy escaping the ottoman. Joseph dioguardi is of arberesh decent who is the president of the Albanian American civic league he talk about his ancestors going to Italy escaping the ottoman all the time. I know many arberesh who talk about their albanian origin.

----------


## Nobody1

Of course the Arbereshe are Albanians

sounds very Albanian to me



I think its important to diff. between the Albanians of Maniakes in _Catepanate of Italy_ and the Albanians (_Arbereshe_) of Skanderbeg in the _Kingdom of Naples_. 

Definately 2 seperate waves, in 2 diff. times;
with the 1. _Maniakes wave_ being absorbed into the Latin Normannic fiefdoms of south Italy; and 2._ Skanderbeg wave_ being more independent and to this day strong Albanian identity

----------


## kamani

Based on admixtures: northern Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Montenegrins, and Macedonians are close. Southern and Aegean Island Greeks are close but they have more neolithic middle-eastern influence so they tend to be a bit darker and show affinity with Sicilians, Anatolians and Ashkenazi Jews.

----------


## Nobody1

> Of course the Arbereshe are Albanians
> 
> sounds very Albanian to me
> 
> 
> 
> I think its important to diff. between the Albanians of Maniakes in _Catepanate of Italy_ and the Albanians (_Arbereshe_) of Skanderbeg in the _Kingdom of Naples_. 
> 
> Definately 2 seperate waves, in 2 diff. times;
> with the 1. _Maniakes wave_ being absorbed into the Latin Normannic fiefdoms of south Italy; and 2._ Skanderbeg wave_ being more independent and to this day strong Albanian identity


*Michael Attaleiates* - _11th century_ Byzantine:
_Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome,....
The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there, being offended because the emperor had shown him a lack of respect and fearing the emperor in view of previous hostilities......
Once he had ensured that he had indeed assembled a large army and forces fit for action, composed of Byzantine Greeks, Bulgarians and Albanians and of his own soldiers, he set off and hastened to Thessalonika..._

*Russell King* - The new Albanian migration (2005) [Sussex Academic Press]
_The exodus swelled after the death of the Albanian national hero Skanderbeg, reaching a climax between 1480 and the early sixteenth century, but with subsequent departures continuing into the seventeenth century. Although some of this migration was oriented north and south along the eastern Adriatic seaboard, to Dalmatia and Greece respectively, the greater part of the refugees crossed the sea to Southern Italy, where they settled in several dozen small yet scattered communities in Calabria, Sicily and other regions, where they became known as Arberesh. By the eighteenth century the Arberesh were estimated to number 100,000. In the Italian censuses of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries their numbers had grown to around 200,000, a figure that has remained fairly stable ever since (Hall 1994: 50; Vickers 1999: 9)._

----------


## albanopolis

> wrong. 
> 
> read Greek revolt history, 
> 
> especially Mesologgi Μεσολογκι massacre


I saw a greek documentary about greek revolution on you tube. Contemporary greek historians were explaining the revolution. The documentary was aired in SKY greek tv. The historian was saying that greek revolution was in fact an Albanian affair. Seven years after greeks had gained independence greeks rose in counterrevolution to join Ottomans again. The reason was the greeks are mearchants and in ottoman empire they were very prosperous. Half of greeks had converted to Islam so religion was not a problem. With revolution they lost a huge source of incomes from trade so they wanted to overturn the independence and join Turks. Then Bavarians intervined and the counterrevolution was thwarted. So basicaly Greek independence was work of Arvanites. I disagree with some Albanian forumers when they say Arbanites are albanians. Not any more. They have been residing in Greece since 11th centuary so many of them mixed with greeks. Its fair to say that Arbanites are half albanians. Could be that some of them are not mixed but its been a very long time.

----------


## Marko94

> Gods another who believes stupid propaganda, and never search good, 
> 
> ARBERESH NEVER STEP IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> THEY WERE IN South ITALY, THEY FOLLOWED MANIAKIS ARMY GENERAL, THEY MOVED SOUTH AND THEN WENT TO SICILY.
> 
> IN THEIR TRADITIONALS SONGS NO MENTION ABOUT ALBANIA. WHY? SEARCH GOOD.
> 
> Arberesh and Mianiakis are connected, search why. and leave stupidity that Albanians officers tell you.


ahahaha omg, is very funny, you know?
You know where born name albania or who make????
Name albania is make by arbaresh and greek, the significated is use for "all" balkan, the significate is "alba"=tentum and "nia"=place. In italy don't know because this name is use for my ethnic people, but know before of 1600 is use for all balkan.
Arbaresh in italy make many church ortodox and chatolic in lenguage albanian ( is old).

----------


## ukaj

> Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately. 
> 
> The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply. 
> 
> It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - _When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were_ _Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.
> _
> So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.


LOL you should studie these names before you say this,,lol..many of these names are from gheg,,

----------


## ukaj

> Gods another who believes stupid propaganda, and never search good, 
> 
> ARBERESH NEVER STEP IN ALBANIA, 
> 
> THEY WERE IN South ITALY, THEY FOLLOWED MANIAKIS ARMY GENERAL, THEY MOVED SOUTH AND THEN WENT TO SICILY.
> 
> IN THEIR TRADITIONALS SONGS NO MENTION ABOUT ALBANIA. WHY? SEARCH GOOD.
> 
> Arberesh and Mianiakis are connected, search why. and leave stupidity that Albanians officers tell you.


jetos.I am friends with lorus castriota of foggie an i can tell you now vella arbreshe did set foot in albania,,I have seen things from him an other arbreshe people of my last name in the old way it used to be pronounced,,I have seen many old coat of arms also from albanians names of today still their,,,just saying,,im catholic albanian an i know much about arbreshe as they come to north albania in thethi,,shkodra,etc..they were hear not long ago..anyway,

----------


## binx

> Of course the Arbereshe are Albanians
> 
> sounds very Albanian to me


Sounds very Albanian to you because it's Albanian. Albanian songs has generally a Turkish influence, while Italian-Arbereshe songs has no Turkish influence at all. Italian-Arbereshe songs are influenced by south Italian folklore, language, dance and music (like tarantella dance). An example of a ancient Italian-Arbereshe song from Frascineto, Calabria

----------


## binx

This is another true Italian-Arbereshe song (very heavily influenced by Southern Italians dialects, many words are Calabrian and not Arbereshe)

----------


## binx

Same here, a true Arbreshe song from Montegrassano, Calabria. Also here the Southern Italian dialects and music influence is very strong.

----------


## LumiBardha

Italians-Greeks-Albanians have little genetic difference if you look at the big picture. The problem is and always has been their inability to get along. More so Greeks and Albanians, religion has much to do with that, too bad no one is smart enough to look past these differences. They did it during the ottoman times but cant do it now while they are free, kind of funny.

----------


## LeBrok

> Italians-Greeks-Albanians have little genetic difference if you look at the big picture. The problem is and always has been their inability to get along. More so Greeks and Albanians, religion has much to do with that, too bad no one is smart enough to look past these differences. They did it during the ottoman times but cant do it now while they are free, kind of funny.


It is a sad fact. I completely agree.

----------


## Sile

Based on genetics the Ghegs and Tosks of Albania are a different ethnicity.

Tosks, IMO being a North-Epirote people....neither Greek nor Albanian.........caught in the 19th and 20th century international game of national politics.

----------


## Eldritch

> Based on genetics the Ghegs and Tosks of Albania are a different ethnicity.


Really?

I know Y-DNA wise they got quite a few difference but what about the autosomal results?

Where's the clustering usually?

----------


## Angela

This is a list of yDna for Albanians by area, but I don't know if it's totally comprehensive. You always have to be cautious with Wiki data, because people with various agendas go in and alter the entries all the time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

Of course, yDna levels can vary from valley to valley in mountainous regions, whereas the autosomal dna can be very similar.

This is the only autosomal dna for Albanians that I can remember offhand. See:
Ralph and Coop


"By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping."

"
*Limitations of sampling.*A concern about our results is that the European individuals in the POPRES dataset were all sampled in either Lausanne or London. This might bias our results, for instance, if an immigrant community originated mostly from a particular small portion of their home population, thereby sharing a particularly high number of recent common ancestors with each other. We see remarkably little evidence that this is the case: there is a high degree of consistency in numbers of IBD blocks shared across samples from each population, and between neighboring populations. For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3".

"This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51]...Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis."

"The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case."

----------


## LeBrok

How can you *designate a person* or a group who carries E-V13, *based on 2% of DNA* of a whole person,* to be Asian, African or European?*

----------


## Angela

> How can you *designate a person* or a group who carries E-V13, *based on 2% of DNA* of a whole person,* to be Asian, African or European?*


You can't. This is totally a-scientific thinking.

----------


## noUseForAname

> Autosomally speaking? Their Y-DNA have some clear differences with the presence of Slavic Haplogroups (I2a2 and R1a) in Albanians from Albania although i 've seen a map where Kosovars cluster more Northern and Eastern at the same time.
> How it's this?


I would say a very slight difference (speaking genetically), although i think we should get the average because current Albanians in Albania are 4 million and at the neighbours over 3.5 million, which includes Kosovo 2 million, Macedonia at least 600,000, east Montenegro, South Serbia, and south west and north Greece 500,000
so we have around 7.5 million currently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania...ties_in_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania...c_of_Macedonia

Diaspora looks pretty large and will only source the neighbour Countries:
Albanians in current Turkey 1.3 million, The first wave of the Albanian diaspora left for Turkey during the Greco-Turkish population exchange of 1923
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Turkey

Albanians in Italy 260,000, Their population in Italy was around 260,000 inhabitants in 1976,[3] but many today are fully assimilated into the Italian society.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people


By the way i wouldn't say I2a is slavic (if genetically speaking) (R1a Yes)


1: Average of E-V13 of all Albanians from: Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania is 39%
2: Kosovo Albanians 47.5%
3: Albanians from Macedonia 39%
4: Albanians from Albania 27.5%

the rest haplogroups are pretty much the same except !2a which has higher percentage by 8% in south Albania, and R1a with higher 4% in south Albania


Here is the E-V13 percentage for specific populations and specific locations.
Very interesting percentage by a specific location


*Population*
*--------------------------*
*

Albanians(Kosovar)*
*Language*
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b
-------


21.10
R1a
-------


4.42
I 
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
*E-V13*
---------


*47.37*
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
*R*eference 
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]

*Greeks (Peloponnese)*
IE (Greek)
36
—
—
—
*47*
—
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Greeks (South)*
IE (Greek)
46
19.6
2.2
23.9
*43.5*
—
6.5
—
2.2
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Cantabrians(Pasiegos)*
IE (Italic)
56
—
—
—
*42.9*
—
—
—
—
—
Cruciani2004[20]

*Albanians(Macedonia)*
IE (Albanian)
64
18.8
1.6
I1=4.5
I2a=12.5
*39.1*
J1=6.3
J2=15.6
1.6
0.0
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Greeks (North)*
IE (Greek)
96
14.6
18.8
12.5
*35.4*
—
5.2
—
2.1
L=1
Zalloua2008[31]

*Italians (East Sicily)*
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
*29.0*
—
5.0
—
5.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Italians (Sicily)*
IE (Italic)

—
—
8.8
*27.3*
23.8
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Cypriots*
IE (Greek)
45
9.0
2.0
—
*27.0*
—
—
—
—
—
Rosser2000[13]

*Italians (South)*
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
*26.0*
—
15.0
—
3.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Albanians*
IE (Albanian)
55
18.2
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
*27.5*
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Greeks*
IE (Greek)
84/92
—
—
—
*21.0*
6.5
—
—
—
—
Semino2004[8]

*Greeks (Macedonia)*
IE (Greek)
57
14.0
12.3
I1=8.8
I2a=21.0
*22.9*
J1=1.8
J2=14.1
1.8
—
1.8
—
Battaglia 2008[5]

*Ashkenazi Jews*
IE (Germanic, West)
79
—
12.7
—
*22.8*
43.0
—
—
—
—
Nebel2001[9]

*Serbs (Bosnia)*
IE (Slavic, South)
81
6.2
13.6
40.7
*22.2*
9.9
1.2
6.2
0.0
—
Battaglia2008[5]

*Aromuns(Kruševo, Macedonia)*
IE (Italic)
43
27.9
11.6
20.9
*20.9*
11.6
7.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Bulgarians*
IE (Slavic, South)
127
11.0
17.3
27.5
*19.7*
18.1
1.6
—
0.8
—
Karachanak2009[17]

*Greeks (Thrace)*
IE (Greek)
41
12.2
22.0
19.5
*19.5*
19.5
4.9
—
—
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Sephardic Jews*
Afro-Asiatic (Semitic)
78
29.5
3.9
11.5
*19.2*
28.2
—
—
—
—
Nebel2001[9]

*Italians (West Sicily)*
IE (Italic)
125
27.0
2.4
11.0
*19.0*
—
13.0
—
3.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Minorca islanders*
IE (Italic)
37
73.0
2.7
2.7
18.9
—
0.0
—
0.0
—
Zalloua2008[31]

*Aromuns (Štip, Macedonia)*
IE (Italic)
65
23.1
21.5
16.9
18.5
20.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*ethnic Macedonians*
IE (Slavic, South)
211
11.4
14.2
31.3
18.0
16.0
3.8
0.5
1.9
L=0.5
Noveski2010[34]

*Aromuns(Dukasi, Albania)*
IE (Italic)
39
2.6
2.6
17.9
17.9
48.7
10.3
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Serbs*
IE (Slavic, South)
179
4.5
14.5
48
17.3
5.6
2.2
3.3
—
L=0.6
Mirabal,V.2010[39]

*Portuguese (South)*
IE (Italic)
57
56.0
2.0
—
17.0
—
—
—
—
—
Rosser2000[13]

*Romanians(Ploieşti)*
IE (Italic)
36
8.3
5.6
38.9
16.7
19.4
8.3
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Gagauz(Kongaz)*
Altaic (Turkic)
48
10.4
12.5
31.3
16.7
8.3
10.4
4.2
6.3
—
Varzari2006[27]

*Italians (Calabria)*
IE (Italic)

32.4[2]
—
5.4[6]
16.3[3]
24.6[8]
—
—
—
—


*Aromuns(Andon Poci, Albania)*
IE (Italic)
19
36.8
0.0
42.1
15.8
5.3
0.0
0.0
0.0
—
Bosch2006[4]

*Italians (Apulia)*
IE (Italic)

—
—
2.6[6]
13.9[8]
31.4[8]
—
—
—
—


*Italians*
IE (Italic)

—
2.7[16]
—
13.0[13]
—
—
—
—
—




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

----------


## noUseForAname

> The Gheghs are quite different from Southern Italians/Greeks.


I think this is actually the opposite because Albanians from Kosova (gheghs) have the highest E-V13 in the region 47.5%, that being said E-V13 is very high especially in West Macedonia, north and South Greece, also very high at Peloponnese area, and also quite high especially in south Italy and Sicily. (see my above post with table)

However to understand E-V13 you should read a lot and there are some good facts at this site....

For more quality info based on* dna facts and scientific papers* (not history nor any kind of nationalism) 


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...our-data/page6
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...be-E-V13/page9

----------


## noUseForAname

> I gave you data and real scientific studies showing that greeks are not native of greece and you called them childish without giving any reasoning. I could start a discussion as to E V-13 being native to albanians but you probably will twist that too into some form of political discussion, so if you don't provide any scientific sources or data, there is no really point in talking to you.


I have the same issue with *Yetos* too, he never sources studies and more than 90% are all of his opinions and not based on sources.

He is everywhere in my thread and this has started to be very annoying lately.

----------


## ukaj

http://&lt;iframe width="420" height="3...lt;/iframe&gt;[QUOTE=binx;409938]Sounds very Albanian to you because it's Albanian. Albanian songs has generally a Turkish influence, while Italian-Arbereshe songs has no Turkish influence at all. Italian-Arbereshe songs are influenced by south Italian folklore, language, dance and music (like tarantella dance). An example of a ancient Italian-Arbereshe song from Frascineto, Calabria


Id say that hte lahuta is more old albanian music rather than italian influence of arbreshe has,And also this fyelli

----------


## ukaj



----------


## BalkanPower

im gheg albanian so i can tell you...
There is not a big difference but there is one. A lot of tosk albanians tend to be dinaric/mediterenian while gheg albanians are predominantly dinaric. in dna results you can see that ghegs were more isolated and strict when it came to interracial marriage than tosks. ghegs are taller and paler (me and a lot of my cousins are 6ft and more), while tosk albanians seem to be shorter

----------


## Dibran

> I think you have some false beliefs in your head and you get angry if somebody questions them. 
> 
> The highest frequency of J2 is not in crete:
> "The highest reported frequency of J2 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29 
> 
> here is your law of mechanics...
> The distribution and diversity of V13 are often thought to represent the introduction of early farming technologies, 
> during the Neolithic expansion, into Europe by way of the Balkans.
> ...


E-V13 is definitely Pelasgian I believe. But it is not indoeuropean. Therefore the language/culture bearers of our people most likely arrived with R1b folk. Due to Gheg clan system, it allowed E-V13 to flourish causing a founder effect, at least for E-V13 in Albanians. 

There is no way Pelasgians spoke Albanian. It just means Albanians like other peoples migrating to the region, assimilated the native farming peoples. 

Most Ghegs are descended from pre-Albanian natives. 

Pelasgians as I understand predate Greeks Illyria Macedonians Albanians Slavs etc.

----------


## Dibran

> im gheg albanian so i can tell you...
> There is not a big difference but there is one. A lot of tosk albanians tend to be dinaric/mediterenian while gheg albanians are predominantly dinaric. in dna results you can see that ghegs were more isolated and strict when it came to interracial marriage than tosks. ghegs are taller and paler (me and a lot of my cousins are 6ft and more), while tosk albanians seem to be shorter


With exception Of Malesi e Madhe, I can't say most Ghegs are pale and tall. 

It just seems due to the high mountains and altitudes that a Rosey white complexion and tall stature would be more common. 

Outside of Malesor the only tall Albanians I have met are from Prishtina and Dibra Madhe. 

At least personal experience wise. 

I'm a Gheg from Diber. And my mother from Puka in Malesi( though she is descended from Cameria),
And the men in my family are no taller than 5"11 and no shorter than 5"8. 

We have been in Diber Vogel for 300 years, and migrated from Mirdita.

----------


## Dibran

> I am not sure how the fact that many Albanians migrated to Greece translates to Albanians and Greeks having a lot in common.
> 
> Albanian immigrants have not had an easy time in Greece (nor have they assimilated effortlessly) but things are getting better despite the recent anti-immigration sentiments.
> 
> All people in the Balkans share certain things in common due to the Ottoman Empire. Most of them however consider that period to be a black spot in an otherwise spotless/glorious/whatever history so they rarely focus on it (except to denounce it). 
> 
> That's true in Greece at least.
> 
> Oh yeah btw, Yetos = typical Greek. Δεν έχεις βαρεθεί να προπαγανδίζεις;


I think the problem stems from an intense obsession with the past. It's something shared by all Balkan peoples. It's what fuels their very inferiority complexes. Everyone thinks they belong to an ancient kingdom that predates the rest of their neighbors. Just so one can claim one piece of land as their own. 

Sadly in many a case such as these, genetics seems to cause a hinderance rather than an enlightening. 

If this research has shown me anything, it's that much of the balkans is a mixed bag. People forget nationalism is rather a recent development in human history. 

It's merely religion and language that causes these people to hate so intensely. I mean I even meet Albanian christians who call themselves Greek or who say they hate Muslim Albanians. I have met Muslim Albanians who glorify Turks and despise christians. I have met Albanians who glorify their culture to a sort of godly status while denouncing all religion. I have met Albanians(like myself) who practice their faith to some degree yet do not discriminate against others of different beliefs. So long as Justice and equality is maintained. 

Yet this is something Greeks Serbs Macedonians Montenegrins etc all do too. 

Hence, why Serbs massacred other Slavs(Bosnian/Croat). It comes down to nationalism/religion. 

My uncle once threw a beating to a Montenegrin Albanian who boasted about killing Albanians in Kosovo. The mental mind ****ery is all over the balkans. Tribalism is not going to last. And the true stability and peace of the regions will only come when the very people causing the decay are silenced. Only time and cooperation will heal that part of the world. 

It's like anything else, extremity breeds chaos. There's a fine line between appreciating your culture and deifying it to the detriment of all others.

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## Apsurdistan

The Balkans are a very diverse and mixed place and it's the oldest part of Europe, this is a fact. So it's not that strange you have a lot of territorial pissing contests. It's not some genetic hatred we have for one another, it's basically all politics and bickering over history.
From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.

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## Dibran

> The Balkans are a very diverse and mixed place and it's the oldest part of Europe, this is a fact. So it's not that strange you have a lot of territorial pissing contests. It's not some genetic hatred we have for one another, it's basically all politics and bickering over history.
> From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.


I agree with much of what you mention. Sadly(im not advocating for abolishing religion) religion is one of the biggest problems. Its no wonder that historically most disputes between balkan peoples have been of a religious nature. Really, nothing but religion separates Bosnians from Serbs. That is why Serbs butchered Bosnian men women and children. Of course as you say, politics and personal agendas play a big role, as most people follow their leaders blindly.

For instance(being Albanian), many Albanians I encounter who identify with Greek orthodoxy, have expressed their disdain and hate for muslim Albanians. Honestly cant tell on what grounds, because most of our people are godless. It is evident however, that balkan countries are either far right wing, or have some type of religious institution propagating shit to these people. 

During the population exchange between Greece and Turkey, Greece only took orthodox folk, calling them Greek. They forgot some of their brothers in the black sea coast of Turkey. Romaika speaking Greek Muslims.

You would think they would want to preserve a dying classical greek dialect, but they instead considered them turks and left them with Turkey.

This is the problem with Balkan peoples. They are still in the middle aged clan system. What the Balkans need is a separation of church and state. A lingua franca(I would say English) where they can communicate and do business, whilst maintaining their regional languages and dialects. With an open system of freedom, no one would impede on another. Rather than one balkan union, it should function as a loose federation, whereby a council representing the interests of all peoples is appointed to ensure peace and stability. 

Tribal mentalities would need to be quelled. Its just inevitable on the course to progress. The future has no place for minds of the past. Only when we reach this state could we consider joining the rest of Europe. Lest we pollute it further.

The reason why Balkan union doesn't work, is because it usually heavily dominated by one group, forcing their culture and language down anothers throat(Yugoslavia). The reason America works(not counting recent events leading to the decline of peoples mental capacity), is due to an open cultural system. It welcomes change, and input. It has the established language of its country, but does not force name changes, or forbid the people practice of their religion(within reason), or maintenance of their culture/language. 

For instance this can be seen in Croatia, where Albanians since the 1400s migrated. They have equal rights, and preservation of their language. Their government even went out of their way to fund schools to teach and preserve a dying Dalmatian dialect of Albanian. No problem..

Italy, you have Arbereshe who still have equal rights and language. No problem. However, in Macedonia, there are problems. It really comes down to us learning to live and let live. All the "demons" balkan people fear, are things they have no way of knowing could happen. So instead, they feed their fears and hatreds, and all act based upon fear. The balkans(while it wont happen over night) needs to step out of the dark ages. They will find this "peace" that they were searching for is very attainable with cooperation and compromise. Working to benefit each other. Until they stop thinking they are ancient and everyone else an intruder, they will still keep butchering each other. It really doesnt matter how old the place is. All nations have come and gone. Ours will be no different. History is in constant change and flux. It cannot be stopped. 

The root problem of all conflict is ignorance. When we stand for justice and eschew evil, then we can think about moving forward as a peoples in the world.

----------


## LABERIA

> I agree with much of what you mention. Sadly(im not advocating for abolishing religion) religion is one of the biggest problems. Its no wonder that historically most disputes between balkan peoples have been of a religious nature. Really, nothing but religion separates Bosnians from Serbs. That is why Serbs butchered Bosnian men women and children. Of course as you say, politics and personal agendas play a big role, as most people follow their leaders blindly.
> 
> For instance(being Albanian), many Albanians I encounter who identify with Greek orthodoxy, have expressed their disdain and hate for muslim Albanians. Honestly cant tell on what grounds, because most of our people are godless. It is evident however, that balkan countries are either far right wing, or have some type of religious institution propagating shit to these people. 
> 
> During the population exchange between Greece and Turkey, Greece only took orthodox folk, calling them Greek. They forgot some of their brothers in the black sea coast of Turkey. Romaika speaking Greek Muslims.
> 
> You would think they would want to preserve a dying classical greek dialect, but they instead considered them turks and left them with Turkey.
> 
> This is the problem with Balkan peoples. They are still in the middle aged clan system. What the Balkans need is a separation of church and state. A lingua franca(I would say English) where they can communicate and do business, whilst maintaining their regional languages and dialects. With an open system of freedom, no one would impede on another. Rather than one balkan union, it should function as a loose federation, whereby a council representing the interests of all peoples is appointed to ensure peace and stability. 
> ...


Where do you live Dibran? Because here in Albania we don't have this kind of problems between religions. 
BTW, the war in ex-Yugoslavia, was not a religious war.

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## Dibran

> Where do you live Dibran? Because here in Albania we don't have this kind of problems between religions. 
> BTW, the war in ex-Yugoslavia, was not a religious war.


I wasn't specifically speaking about Albania regarding religion. Albania is a corrupt country nonetheless. All the balkans is. If they weren't, their people wouldn't be predominantly poor without education or increased standard of living. 

I live in the United States. Not a religious war? Not from Kosovar Albanians I have spoken too. Unless of course our own people are lying. 

I have heard reports that Milosevic ordered orthodox christians to paint crosses on their doors(so that they would be left alone). 

Additionally they kept Bosnians in ghettos. Especially Muslim Bosnians. One Bosnian survivor I spoke to mentioned that It was not uncommon to find soldiers/tanks with the Greek flag in Sarajevo. 

I have also heard reports from others that Greeks helped Serbs in the war. Do they have the same culture? Language? No they do not. But they do boast about an orthodox brotherhood. 

Even Russian and Ukrainian orthodox christians fought in Kosova. 

My mothers family were there, some relatives went back to fight(my moms side that came from Kosova). I believe "Muslim Dog" was the term used when they butchered my mothers nephew(just a baby). 

You forget. A lot of the bs Milosevic was spewing was religious. Their claim to Kosovo because of their history of churches. Bla bla. Now you have Saudi Arabia pouring money into Kosova(when they didn't even lift a finger to help refugees during the war), and radicalizing them. My friend went last year and noticed it. 

The whole Balkans is a shitfest. Any wonder why those who moved to the states never went back?

That was the plan for my family at least. Once the borders reopened. Yet when they saw the quality of living was no where near what they enjoy here, they stayed. Even my brother in law from Tepelena came here to work and decided to stay after meeting my sister. 

All those countries operate from the Stone Age. There's no reason they can't move forward. But everyone of us believes we are some ancient people with claim to all the land. Senseless blood spilled by animals for feelings of Grandeur. 

All the balkans need to work together. Otherwise this constant back and forth of corruption and bloodshed will never change.

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## LABERIA

> I wasn't specifically speaking about Albania regarding religion.


Of course you was talking about Albania regarding religion. Are this your word:



> For instance(being Albanian), many Albanians I encounter who identify with Greek orthodoxy, have expressed their disdain and hate for muslim Albanians.


 ? 
For this reason i asked you:



> *Where do you live Dibran? Because here in Albania we don't have this kind of problems between religions.* 
> BTW, the war in ex-Yugoslavia, was not a religious war.


Now, i insist again. Can you elaborate this your theory about the problems between this many Albanians Orthodox of Greek rite and Muslim Albanians, using your words, about this disdain and hate? 

BTW, the theory that the war in ex-Yugoslavia was a religious war, is part of serb propaganda. They want to justify their crimes playing the card of religion.

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## Dibran

> Of course you was talking about Albania regarding religion. Are this your word:
> ? 
> For this reason i asked you:
> 
> Now, insist again. Can you elaborate this your theory about the problems between this many Albanians Orthodox of Greek rite and Muslim Albanians, using your words, about this disdain and hate? 
> 
> BTW, the theory that the war in ex-Yugoslavia was a religious war, is part of serb propaganda. They want to justify their crimes playing the card of religion.



My profile clearly says the United States. Since you viewed my profile already, there was no reason to ask....

I failed to specify, however I was speaking of my encounter with Albanian Americans. Not Albanians in Albania proper. 

I know plenty of stories of Albanians disowning their children for marrying albanians of other religions. I have had my own encounters where a girl I was dating could no longer see me because her father wouldnt accept me for being muslim.

Again as I said previously, there are all types of Albanians as there are other Balkan peoples. Stop making it seem otherwise.

Again, I have family who were there during the war. Your claims are irrelevant. Their words confirm the things they saw.

Playing a religion card doesn't justify any bloodshed. Only a fool would think so.

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## LABERIA

> My profile clearly says the United States. Since you viewed my profile already, there was no reason to ask....
> 
> I failed to specify, however I was speaking of my encounter with Albanian Americans. Not Albanians in Albania proper. 
> 
> I know plenty of stories of Albanians disowning their children for marrying albanians of other religions. I have had my own encounters where a girl I was dating could no longer see me because her father wouldnt accept me for being muslim.
> 
> Again as I said previously, there are all types of Albanians as there are other Balkan peoples. Stop making it seem otherwise.
> 
> Again, I have family who were there during the war. Your claims are irrelevant. Their words confirm the things they saw.
> ...


It's the first time for me that i heard something like this. I have never been in USA. But i have cousins there and they have never told me that you Albanians in USA have religious problems. 
About the situation in Albania, i don't need to make things seem otherwise. I live here and we have not problems here. 
About the war in Kosova, maybe you have cousins there, because you personally are from Albania, not Kosova.

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## DuPidh

> In ancient times, the Balkans (in places like Greece, Albania, FYROM, Bulgaria) were populated by the same bulk of tribes which arrived there in pre-historical times. The Greek ethnogenesis was only formed much later, in the 2nd and 1st century BC, through invasions of indo-european tribes, myths and political events. What constituted a Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture, not race. It is very plausible that beyond the Greek world as we know it, the people were not very different from the Greeks genetically. Not to mention that around the 5th century AD there were many Greek colonies south of the Drin river. Judging by the fact that South Albanians are very close to Greeks genetically, this makes prefect sense. They are A) descendants of paleo-balkanic tribes like the Greeks and b) descendants of Greek colonisers. 
> _
> _
> 
> 
> Vlachs have been subjects to a horrific policy of assimilation by all the states which gained pieces of the territories inhabited by them. There could easily have been 20% of Vlachs in Albania considering there are still 200.000 Vlachs there today around the region of Vlora, Voskopoja, Moscopole. That's 7% of the total population of Albania today. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these Vlachs are genetically identical to south Albanians and Greeks. Some estimates of Bulgarians in Albania go up to 100.000. Likewise there are up to 30.000 Serbs in Albania. 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Albania
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Albania
> ...


Yep. It looks like the majority of Albanian and mainland Greece people are paleo-Ballkanic. I think Hellens who imposed their language and culture to other people in the Ballkans should have been in proximity with Armenians since both languages are subsets of ones common language. Illyrians on the other side should have been in proximity with Germanics or Celst or Balto-Slavics for the same language reasons. Had Southern Albanians been Albanized Greek colonists as you are claiming, Albanian language should have had abstracts old Greek borrowings, instead Greek words Albanian language has, are objets like sickle, Bee, house, stone mill which came through culture exchange and trade. The small genetic distance Gegs have from Tosks is Slavic and Gothic invasions. Middle and North Albania do not have slavic Toponims. It appears that around 15% percent of Tosk population is either of Slavic or Gothic heritage. Greece on the other hand had the same invadors

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## Dibran

> It's the first time for me that i heard something like this. I have never been in USA. But i have cousins there and they have never told me that you Albanians in USA have religious problems. 
> About the situation in Albania, i don't need to make things seem otherwise. I live here and we have not problems here. 
> About the war in Kosova, maybe you have cousins there, because you personally are from Albania, not Kosova.


Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt. 

Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.

Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.

The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.

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## LABERIA

> Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt. 
> 
> Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.
> 
> Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.
> 
> The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.


Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians, not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania. So, your post was incorrect.

----------


## Apsurdistan

The only thing keeping Americans civilized is the dollar. If that collapses there would be a bloodbath here unprecedented in human history. The most guns per capita in the world, no one comes close. Serbia is a distant 2nd.

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## last-resort

> Ali pasha-s center was Ioannina which is deep into greece and kind of far from the present day albanian border, so that puts in question as to who was in greece during the 1800-s.


 Geography is not everyone's forte, but *Ioannina is only 69.1 km from the Albanian border* (~11€ fuel cost.) Errors such as this raises questions as to your intent, seriousness, and integrity.  :Annoyed: 

https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Ioannina/...order-crossing

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## DuPidh

> Albania definitely has problems. I would not call half the people being impoverished poor without jobs education or opportunities "not a problem". Even my brother in Law who is from Tepelena says as much. Its completely corrupt. 
> 
> Maybe that is part of the reason Albania is still dragging behind(including the rest of the balkans). They see "no problem" with their state of affairs. I would say its a big problem when family you never met is calling asking you to send money back. This is practically the same for many Albanians I speak to as well.
> 
> Considering I actually have family in Kosova, and many from my moms side were killed, I would say I have a better understanding about it. At least in laymen terms. My moms family(though born muslim) dont even practice it. They loosely adhere to Kanun(of all things). So I see no reason they would lie about a religiously motivated Serb forces. I mean every dispute I have had with a Serb has had something to do with me being a Muslim Dog or something or other.
> 
> The only nice serbs I have met were American born. Which goes to show, hate is learned not inherent. The Balkans needs to wake up and join the rest of the world. Or get chewed up alive in the process. You cant stop the future. Go with it or perish.


 Did you take out the garbage? Its garbage day today! Or you have gotten promotion as doorman?

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## Dibran

> Did you take out the garbage? Its garbage day today! Or you have gotten promotion as doorman?



This is exactly what I mean. Denial. And childish responses.

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## Dibran

> Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians, not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania. So, your post was incorrect.


My post was not incorrect. I mentioned corruption as a whole. And religion as a motivating factor for Greeks and south Slavs(with exception of Bosnians). 

You keep jumping back to religion. I understand English may not be your first language. Perhaps it's just misunderstanding on both our parts. However, I was speaking of orthodox Greeks and south Slavs being religiously motivated for half they do. You can't deny most of their identity relies heavily on their orthodox history. 

My comments were experiences with Albanians in AMERICA. IF I have to type that again then I'm clearly wasting my time. 

Religious problems(at least those of a marital nature) do exist in the United States. Half the Albanian girls I dated weren't even Muslim. 

When my cousin got married(her husband is Albanian catholic from Malesi), his family disowned him. Similar case in the reverse for my friend. He was catholic. Girl was Muslim. Her father disapproved. 


You may not have these problems since you all fell out of Communism with the likes of that tyrant Hoxha. However those who left before the borders closed do in fact carry some religious disputes with them.

----------


## last-resort

> This is what wikipedia says about the plague, it does not seem to have much to do with battlefields:
> "The Black Death is thought to have started in China or central Asia, before spreading west. The plague then travelled along the Silk Road and reached the Crimea by 1346. ....."
> 
> and in 1346 the slavs were already in the balkans.


 But there were earlier European plagues than the 14th century one. There was the 'Justinian plague' that Tom Holland (in his book, In the Shadow of the Sword) attributes as weakening the Roman East and Persia enough that the Arabs, and Islam, had a far easier time in their rise than would have been the case a few hundred years either way. The Celts were in Greece in the 6th century BCE, I believe, but the 6th century CE period dovetails with +oriental's thesis at #88. I'm not saying that I agree with all +oriental said in #88. Just sayin' that you are mistaken again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the...e_Sword_(book)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic...Eastern_Europe

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## LeBrok

> Absolutely we have our problems and we don't ignore (the existence of corruption etc, so again you are not correct), but not this kind of problem, the religious conflict as you described it, this no. And our discussion was about this hypothetical religious conflict between Albanians,* not about the poverty or the corruption in Albania.* So, your post was incorrect.


There are more conflicts in poverty. When people don't have money for basic life or food, they blame everybody for their misery, usually people of different religion, and they are more tempted to corruption or other crimes.

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## Boreas

As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian 

Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?

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## LeBrok

> This is exactly what I mean. Denial. And childish responses.


Exactly how we know him for years.

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## LABERIA

> There are more conflicts in poverty. When people don't have money for basic life or food, they blame everybody for their misery, usually people of different religion, and they are more tempted to corruption or other crimes.


Le Brok, we have so many problems here in Albania. The fact that from the ex-communist countries, only few of them in Balkan region are not part of EU, explain many things. But the religion, has never been a problem between Albanians. Some people have a distorted view of reality. I want to add also that if we have this excellent coexistence between different religions here in Albania, this is not thanks to the imposed atheism of communism. This is an old tradition in Albania. In one thousand years of existence of more than two religions between Albanians, there were problems? Of course yes, one thousand years is a long period, the invaders used this existence of more than two religions between Albanians in order to divide us. But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.

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## LABERIA

> As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian 
> 
> Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?


The creation of a single state for all Albanians is not allowed from Great Powers. So, we will continue to live in different states, but always we will continue to be one nation.

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## Dibran

> As Bulgarian-Macedonian, Serb-Montenegrian 
> 
> Is there any chance of division between Albanian and Albanian in Kosovo (Kosovian?) ?



I guess it all depends on who you speak to? and your encounters in general. Personally(most of my Albanian friends are from Kosova) and they have been the LEAST bigoted(to my personal experience). Yet when I ask my cousin, based on his encounter, he seems to think Kosovar Albanians are delusional. Because most he has met claim they are Kosovan not Albanian. Keeping them separately has caused some divergent aspects of culture and association I am sure. Though this seems to be the case for some there, as opposed to those born here.

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## Dibran

> Le Brok, we have so many problems here in Albania. The fact that from the ex-communist countries, only few of them in Balkan region are not part of EU, explain many things. But the religion, has never been a problem between Albanians. Some people have a distorted view of reality. I want to add also that if we have this excellent coexistence between different religions here in Albania, this is not thanks to the imposed atheism of communism. This is an old tradition in Albania. In one thousand years of existence of more than two religions between Albanians, there were problems? Of course yes, one thousand years is a long period, the invaders used this existence of more than two religions between Albanians in order to divide us. But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.


Well that is why you have a one sided view of things. Speak to Albanians that left before the border closed, and most(not all)care more about religious associations than they do "Albanianism". The Communist regime of Enver Hoxha oppressed many peoples in Albania. Forced names, no religious institutions or places of worship. Its the whole reason my family came to the United States in the first place. My grandfather helped Albanians of all faiths escape into Macedonia, and was pursued by Hoxhas forces for it, so they fled to Macedonia, then to Italy, then to the United States. 

All you need to do is look at most of Albanias history before communism. There was in fact religious disputes. Especially between Albanians. You can even look to Edith Durhams book where she mentions some muslim and catholic Albanian tribes attacking each other over religious disputes. It is due to communism that Albanians adopted a sort of ethno-religious consciousness as opposed to actual religious consciousness. I mean when you have Albanians saying "my religion is Albanianism", than it is quite clear. This correlated to the result of the communist regime. 

This is evident in the fact that some Albanians I meet from Albania proper are in fact either still fans of Hoxha, or still cling to aspects of the propaganda he enforced. Whereas in Kosova, its obvious religion still holds sway. Though not enough to cause division. Look to Albanians in Greece. Specifically Orthodox Arvanites. They call Albanian Muslims Turks. This is a result of their upbringing, and the fact they belong to a Greek speaking orthodox church. Religion is definitely more problematic with our neighbors. What plagues Albania the most is the corruption at state and government levels. No jobs, relatively little education(aside from Tirana). Those who did get an education actually left. When you have to conserve electricity and turn it off in some parts of the country throughout the day, you have nothing but problem. Why is this something only Albanians who emigrated from Albania seem to recognize? 

There is no reason we cant move forward as a people and nation. its a beautiful country, with beautiful history. The ignorance our people take pride in is a detriment to our advancement, not an aid.

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## LeBrok

> But the very fact that we are today a nation with different religions, is the prove that our ethnic identity always prevail over religions or other divisions among us.


That's a good sign.

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## LABERIA

> Well that is why you have a one sided view of things.


It's not one side view. It's the story of the last millenia, from the division of the church. And the line that divide the two churches also divide Albania in two parts. Later arrived Islam. If religion was important for the Albanians, hard to find any Albanian today. 




> Speak to Albanians that left before the border closed, and most(not all)care more about religious associations than they do "Albanianism".


I told you that i have cousins in USA. Their parents left Albania in November 1944 because they were nationalists, supporters of King Zog. But i had the possibility to ask my grandfathers and grandmothers, it's the same. From what they told me, there were no religious problems. 



> The Communist regime of Enver Hoxha oppressed many peoples in Albania. Forced names, no religious institutions or places of worship.


Well, it was a dictatorial system. What have to do with our discussion. 




> Its the whole reason my family came to the United States in the first place. My grandfather helped Albanians of all faiths escape into Macedonia, and was pursued by Hoxhas forces for it, so they fled to Macedonia, then to Italy, then to the United States. [


Again, what have to do all this with our discussion. The only interesting thing is that your grandfather had no problems with the religions. 



> All you need to do is look at most of Albanias history before communism. There was in fact religious disputes. Especially between Albanians. You can even look to Edith Durhams book where she mentions some muslim and catholic Albanian tribes attacking each other over religious disputes.


Disputes among Albanians has always been something very common. For example, two regions who were bastions of Scanderbeg, Mati and Dibra, both mostly converted in Islam, had a bloodfeud for centuries. This blood feud ended few years after that Albania was liberated from Ottomans. Nothing to do with religions. But with all the respect, because my grandfather from mother side was from your region, Dibra e vogël, what i have to see are not some quarrels between some villagers. What you have to see is the fact that Albanians of all religions partecipated in the National Renaissance, in the Independence of Albania. The first real Albanian state was created in the Kongres of Lushnje, where was created the High Council, composed from four members of different religions. What i have to see is the coexistence of the religions during the Kingdom of Albania, under the King Zog.



> It is due to communism that Albanians adopted a sort of ethno-religious consciousness as opposed to actual religious consciousness. I mean when you have Albanians saying "my religion is Albanianism", than it is quite clear. This correlated to the result of the communist regime.


No, you are totally wrong. Were the forefathers of Albania who decided for Albanianism. And this mean that everyone is free to follow his religion, but above all is Albania. Meanwhile during the communism above all was the Party. Communism, intentionally misused Albanianism. 



> This is evident in the fact that some Albanians I meet from Albania proper are in fact either still fans of Hoxha, or still cling to aspects of the propaganda he enforced. 
> Whereas in Kosova, its obvious religion still holds sway.


This people are called nostalgics, nothing to do with religion but with their sympathy for communism as a system. 
With the Albanians outside our borders, the story is different. The religion was used by the invaders, the serbs, as a tool for the elimination of the Albanians. Their plan was the islamisation of the Albanians and later their conversion in Bosniaks. The perfect example Novi Pasar. There are no more Albanians in Novi Pasar or Sandjak. 




> Though not enough to cause division. Look to Albanians in Greece. Specifically Orthodox Arvanites. They call Albanian Muslims Turks. This is a result of their upbringing, and the fact they belong to a Greek speaking orthodox church.


Yes, but the same can not be said for the Arbëreshë in Italy. Why?

----------


## Bergin

Funny coincidence:
I went to Corsica for a conference, in a small town called Cargese. While talking with a bar owner I told him of being Albanian. He told me that the priest of the town was Albanian. There were two churches, a catholic and an orthodox one, but just one and the same priest. Still makes me smile when I remember it.

----------


## Yetos

*Cargese* is Greek village Καρυοπολις from Magne at 1600-1700 about

its full name* Cargese la Grecque

Paomia Pancone Corone Salici Rontolino Mt Rosso etc

Ajaccio Αιακιον are ancient Greek colonies 


*

----------


## ihype02

> Albanians seem closer to Greeks than to Albanians from Kosovo. I think that Albanians will be even more closer to Greeks if the Ghegs from Northern Albania and the Tosks south of the Drin riven (Greek historical cultural sphere) will be categorized seperately. 
> 
> The tosks are probably descendants of Greeks or of tribes who did not call themselves Greeks, but did share common decent with them in pre-history. Probably both could apply. 
> 
> It also makes sense based on what albanologist Dr. Kaplan Resuli had to say about Albanians: - _When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were_ _Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roms, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non albanian language and retains its non albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.
> _
> So the first point to make is that the ancestors of the Albanians were very few in numbers only a century ago. Just 700.000 of which half of them were actually not Albanians. North of the Drin river there were 15% of South Slavs (more I1 and I2b) and South of the Drin river there were at least 25% Vlachs and Greeks. The Vlachs are probably very close to the Greeks and the rest of Southern Albanians genetically because they are Latinised indigenous Balkanian tribes who historically were either Greek or related to the Greeks.


The last Ottoman census, conducted in 1908, counted 128,000 Orthodox Christians and 95,000 Muslims in the region. Of the Orthodox population, an estimated 30,000 to 47,000 spoke Greek exclusively [23% to 36%]. The rest of the Orthodox community spoke an Albanian patois at home, but was literate only in Greek, which was used in cultural, trading and economic activities


http://www.uni-koeln.de/jur-fak/ostr...en_Stoppel.pdf
Page 10 and 11.
Total Greek Orthodox population of Northern Epirus: 13% to 22%.


Some Greeks from Northern Epirus:
Ioannis Chalkeus - (Vlach: Joan Chalkeus)
Daniel of Moscopole - (Vlach: Daniil Moscopoleanu)
Theodore Kavalliotis - Teodor Kavalioti (Vlach)
Konstantinos Tzechanis - Constantinus Tzechani (Vlach)
---
Dimitri Nanopoulos - From a Vlach family of Northern Epirus. (Physicist. He is one of the most regularly cited researchers in the world, cited more than 43,200 times over across a number of separate branches of science.)
Evangelis Zappas (18001865) - Vlach
Konstantinos Zappas (18141892) -Vlach
George Tenet, former Director of CIA - Albanian
Panagiotis Kone - Albanian
Petros Zappas - Vlach surname. 
Nektarios Terpos - Vlach etc.
Plenty of others I can find.

----------


## LABERIA

> The last Ottoman census, conducted in 1908, counted 128,000 Orthodox Christians and 95,000 Muslims in the region. Of the Orthodox population, an estimated 30,000 to 47,000 spoke Greek exclusively [23% to 36%]. The rest of the Orthodox community spoke an Albanian patois at home, but was literate only in Greek, which was used in cultural, trading and economic activities
> http://www.uni-koeln.de/jur-fak/ostr...en_Stoppel.pdf
> Page 10 and 11.
> Total Greek Orthodox population of Northern Epirus: 13% to 22%.
> Some Greeks from Northern Epirus:
> Ioannis Chalkeus - (Vlach: Joan Chalkeus)
> Daniel of Moscopole - (Vlach: Daniil Moscopoleanu)
> Theodore Kavalliotis - Teodor Kavalioti (Vlach)
> Konstantinos Tzechanis - Constantinus Tzechani (Vlach)
> ...


No, Zappas, or better Zhapa because this is the correct surname, are Albanians.
And also the percentage of the Greek population is wrong.

----------


## ihype02

> No, Zappas, or better Zhapa because this is the correct surname, are Albanians.
> And also the percentage of the Greek population is wrong.


What percentage did Greek speakers (of Northern Epirus) made in 1908?

----------


## Yetos

> No, Zappas, or better Zhapa because this is the correct surname, are Albanians.
> And also the percentage of the Greek population is wrong.



*Zappa* is a Aromanian name,
and the move to Wallachia Romania at 1830 is a clear indicator, possibly of Megle-Vlach

his father's village has 580 Greek and Greco-Armani at Balkan wars and WW1.
even the name of the village as toponym is an indicator of Vlach language -ovo

----------


## LABERIA

> *Zappa* is a Aromanian name,


The correct surname is Zhapa and not Zappa. It's useless to ask you if you have a source to prove your claim.



> and the move to Wallachia Romania at 1830 is a clear indicator, possibly of Megle-Vlach


Educate yuourself:
*Albanians of Romania*





> his father's village has 580 Greek and Greco-Armani at Balkan wars and WW1.
> even the name of the village as toponym is an indicator of Vlach language -ovo


The name of his village is Labovë and is the village of:
*Vangjel Meksi* (1770–1821) was an Albanian physician, writer, and translator. One-time personal physician to Ali Pasha, the 19th-century Albanian ruler of the Pashalik of Yanina, Meksi produced the first translation of the New Testament into Albanian with the help and sponsorship of the British and Foreign Bible Society (BFBS).
*Kristo Meksi* (1849 - 1931) was an Albanian politician of the early 20th century. He was one of the signatories of Albanian Declaration of Independence[1] and also one of the first Albanian diplomats.[2]
*Aleksandër Gabriel Meksi* (born March 8, 1939) was the 28th Prime Minister[1] of Albania from April 13, 1992, to March 11, 1997. A former archaeologist, he was the first person to be prime minister of Albania after the end of communist rule.[2]


The *Ghica family* (Romanian: _Ghica_, Albanian: _Gjika_, Greek: Gikas, Γκίκαs) was a noble family active in Wallachia, Moldavia and in the Kingdom of Romania, between the 17th and 19th centuries. [1][2] The Ghicas also held the (agnatic) rank of Princes of the Holy Roman Empire (_fürst_), a title first bestowed upon Grigore II Ghica in 1673 by Leopold I.[_citation needed_]
The family's origins is established to be Albanian by the Sturdza family of Moldavia whose patriarch Demetrios Sturdza is the authority on the Medieval Family Genealogies in Europe.[1] He writes that "His father[George Ghica's} was a certain Georgje Ghica, Albanian by birth, who livedn in Moldavia in the time of his companion , Basile the Wolf". At the end of the page he gives full account of this "Albanian' family and its contribute to Moldavia. Wiet, the French Counsel in Shkodra cites the 'Albanese Gjica, the compatriot of the Grand Vesir" per Adrianopoli letters 3 April 1658, Wien, the Austrian Chancellery. Likewise, the writer Dora d'Istria (1828–1888), a descendant, claimed that the family hailed from southern Albania,[3] more specifically from Labovë e Madhe, where they had an estate.[4][5] Albanologist Robert Elsie views the family as being of Albanian origin.[6]

 Yeto, how many times i have to repeat, don't be a liar. It`s not serious for an man of your age.
But let`s continue with Vangjel Zhapa, read your sources:



 

 


 [LEFT]





But not only Zhapa, many and many others, even Zografi, the leader of "greeks" of South Albania was an Albanian. 








Albanians not only liberated your country but also Albanians built Greece with their money.

----------


## LABERIA

Edit.
The Albanian word for skin is lëkurë, but also is used as a synonymous, zhapa.



> LËKURË f. sh.
> 
> 1. Shtresë e hollë, që mbështjell trupin e njeriut ose të kafshëve;


Google tranlation



> SKIN p. sh.
> 
> 1. A thin layer that wraps the human or animal body;





> ZHAPË f. sh
> 2. Lëkurë me një shtresë të hollë mishi


Google tranlation



> SKIN p. sh.
> 
> 2. Skin with a thin layer of meat;


Source:
http://www.fjalorshqip.com/

----------


## LABERIA

> What percentage did Greek speakers (of Northern Epirus) made in 1908?


I don`t know how many greek speakers lived in South Albania in 1908, because Ottomans registred the populations on the basis of religion, not nationality. But at the end of communism, around the year 1990, about 60,000 Greeks lived in Albania.

----------


## Yetos

*
@ LABERIA

i do not read stupid pappers,


*The Village name is *Λαμποβο* *and as -ovo -avo is a mark of Vlach and Slavic toponyms* (mostly -ava)*
Lampovo 
Metsovo 
Tyrnavo 

*
The same Village also was in revolt of *Korytsa at 1914.*
*the census of 1913 give all Greek and mostly Aromani speaking.

*want other family names of the village?
i can give you,*

Enough with stupid papper like super-market advertizing.
*
The story of Moschopolites and rest Vlach and Greeks is written down.
come on, accept it, and many moschopolites and other N Epirotan Vlachs and Greeks live in the nearby area of me.
As for Romania, many Vlach and Greek moved there,
and you are reffering for Albanians (I doupt, probably Aromanians from Albania)
*I must remind you that Greek revolt started there,* 
by a Pontic Greek, but the main captain was a Vlach whos origin was from N Epiros, who was married with a Vlacha of Serbia *

plz man,
accept at least that Zappa was written with 2 pp
as it should be in Aromanian language,
and as was written in his 2 identity cards , Greek and Romanian.
Ευαγγελος Ζαππας, Evanghelie Zappa
*
the rest are just creating fog and mess stupid pappers

----------


## LABERIA

> *
> @ LABERIA
> 
> i do not read stupid pappers,
> 
> 
> The Village name is Λαμποβο Lampovo and as -ovo -ova is a mark of Vlach and Slavic toponyms
> Lampovo 
> Metsovo 
> ...





> Yeto, how many times i have to repeat, don't be a liar. It`s not serious for an man of your age.


Of course, serious papers for you are Kaplan Burrovic.

And bonus for tonight:
*Ioannis Kapodistrias*




> Count *Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias* (10[1][2][3][4][5] or 11 February 1776[6][7][8] – 9 October 1831), sometimes anglicized as *John Capodistrias* (Greek: Κόμης Ιωάννης Αντώνιος Καποδίστριας _Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias_;[8] Russian: граф Иоанн Каподистрия _Graf Ioann Kapodistriya_; Italian: _Giovanni Antonio Capodistria_ _Conte Capo d'Istria_), was a Greek statesman who served as the Foreign Minister of the Russian Empire and was one of the most distinguished politicians and diplomats of Europe.[9][10][11][12] After a long and distinguished career in European politics and diplomacy he was elected as the first head of state of independent Greece (1827–31). He is considered as the founder of the modern Greek state,[13][14][15][16] and of Greek independence.[17]


A Greek? Seriously?





 

 




From your sources we read that he was a Lab from Gjirokater. How do you explain this Yetos?

----------


## Yetos

> Of course, serious papers for you are Kaplan Burrovic.
> 
> And bonus for tonight:
> *Ioannis Kapodistrias*
> 
> 
> 
> A Greek? Seriously?
> 
> ...



LABERIA

*STOP STUPID POST AND FAKE NEWS

his name was Italian Capo d'Istria.
and his origins are from both Corfu and Savoia,
He was ancestor of Count of Savoy,
and his family was in Libro d' oro,
If you do not know what needed to get to libro d' oro,
at least stop reading and posting FAKE NEWS.

**his family was relative of Carolus Emmanuel 2nd of Savoy. 
and his origins were from KOPER SLOVENIA (1679 Libro d' oro )
that is why his name is Capo d' Istria.

** as for his mother, Γονεμη Family name is in Libro d' oro from 1606 AD
and connections with Venice and Corfu,

**The rest are just another stupid advertising fake news like the ones pub gang has used to post us.

I suggest search and read better,
before you post us some stupid pappers, of an unknown stupid writer,
with an agenda.

the name is Italian name of Koper Slovenia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper

Capodistria = Koper Slovenia

*as you see the pappers you post are just inaccurate.
claiming of a house at 1878 that belong to Capo d' Istria.

----------


## LABERIA

> LABERIA
> 
> *STOP STUPID POST AND FAKE NEWS
> 
> his name was Italian Capo d'Istria.
> and his origins are from both Corfu and Savoia,
> He was ancestor of Count of Savoy,
> and his family was in Libro d' oro,
> If you do not know what needed to get to libro d' oro,
> ...

----------


## LABERIA

> *FAKE NEWS*


lol, Greeks invented fake news in XIX century.

----------


## Yetos

> lol, Greeks invented fake news in XIX century.



you do nothing than more than provoke me,
with fake news and propagandistic Agenda,

and the Answer to you is,

*HOW COME AN ITALIAN NOBLE WITH ORIGINAL FAMILY NAME VITTORI,*
*AND A GREEK CYPRIOT FAMILY,* 
WHO BOTH MOVED TO CRETE, at 16th century AND THEN CORFU 
AND WERE IN LIBRO d' ORO,

CAN HAVE ANY CONNECTION WITH YOUR CLAIMS.

*I THINK all you do is just Fake News,*
with the hope that if a simple lie can pass,
then surely more will be accepted,

*SORRY, 
I WILL NOT TAKE,
AS NOBODY ELSE.


I wonder how can this be happen,
an Italian, and a Cypriot, to make someone who was Albanian !!!!!!!

strange ideas appear only in strange minds*

----------


## LABERIA

> you do nothing than more than provoke me,
> with fake news and propagandistic Agenda,
> 
> and the Answer to you is,
> 
> HOW COME AN ITALIAN NOBLE WITH ORIGINAL FAMILY NAME VITTORI,
> AND A GREEK CYPRIOT FAMILY, 
> WHO BOTH MOVED TO CRETE, at 16th century AND THEN CORFU 
> AND WERE IN LIBRO d' ORO,
> ...


This is provocation Yetos:



> *Zappa* is a Aromanian name,
> and the move to Wallachia Romania at 1830 is a clear indicator, possibly of Megle-Vlach
> 
> his father's village has 580 Greek and Greco-Armani at Balkan wars and WW1.
> even the name of the village as toponym is an indicator of Vlach language -ovo

----------


## Yetos

> This is provocation Yetos:



No this is true,
search the name and the population of Lampovo at balkan wars and WW1, and then at the revolt of Korytsa,
There was a census at 1913.

as also Aromanian toponyms,
lampovo
metsovo
Tyrnavo,
Lehovo
etc etc
in fact they follow the Slavic-Vlach (Megle) compare Slavic toponym -ava

stop reading stupid pappers,
they only do you harm.

----------


## LABERIA

> No this is true,
> *search* the name and the population of Lampovo at balkan wars and WW1, and then at the revolt of Korytsa,
> There was a census at 1913.
> 
> as also Aromanian toponyms,
> lampovo
> metsovo
> Tyrnavo,
> Lehovo
> ...


I don`t intend to search nothing Yetos. The burden of proof is yours. This is a basic rule in a forum.
And show some respect for the greek authors. Stop calling them stupid.

----------


## Yetos

> I don`t intend to search nothing Yetos. The burden of proof is yours. This is a basic rule in a forum.
> And show some respect for the greek authors. Stop calling them stupid.


i do not intent to show respect to false pappers,
and fake news,
sometimes I may pass a lot, 
and even I post something stupid sometimes,

but we exchange knowledge, 
we do not stay in stupidity,

as for the way of proof,
THERE ARE 2 KINDS OF AUTHORS,
THE ONES WHO DO NOT SELL BECAUSE THEY PUBLISH CORRECT,
THE ONES WHO SELL CAUSE THEY WRITE WHATEVER THE BUYER WANTS TO LISTEN.

----------


## LABERIA

> i do not intent to show respect to false pappers,
> and fake news,
> sometimes I may pass a lot, 
> and even I post something stupid sometimes,
> 
> but we exchange knowledge, 
> we do not stay in stupidity,
> 
> as for the way of proof,
> ...


You have to show respect for the rules of this forum, for the members and for everyone who read your post. Not some, but every single of your posts is stupid. You are the number one poster in this thread, with 32 posts. Show us a single post of these 32 that is worth reading. And not only in this thread, in every thread about Albania and Albanians it's the same story with, from many years now.
Get a life.

----------


## Dema

Kosovo Albanians and Albanians from Albania are very similar in genetics. Ydna and autosomal wise. For example i am Kosovar Albanian but i have Albanians from Albania on autosomal relative list. Especialy North Albanians and Montenegro ones.

Kosovo Albanians are mostly from North Albanian 17 century Gheg expansion but also old Kosovo Albanians and Kosovo Vlachs joined with minor Slavic influence of around 5 to max 10 per cent.

Even tho this thread is old, i must notice how much stupidity is written there only on first couple of pages.

----------


## Nik

> Kosovo Albanians are mostly from North Albanian 17 century Gheg expansion but also old Kosovo Albanians and Kosovo Vlachs joined with minor Slavic influence of around 5 to max 10 per cent.


That North Albania in the 17th century you mentioned includes big parts of modern Kosovo and many back and fourth migrations happened. But if you wanna go even earlier it was people from modern Kosovo, South Serbia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, etc. that came to North, Central, South Albania, and even down to Greece becoming Arvanites. 

The movement of a few members of certain North Albanian mountain clans definitely didn't change the ethnic composition of Kosovo, especially now that genetics has continuously proven how all clans in Kosovo include several haplogroups and do not descend from 1 ancestor, Berisha-Sopi being the exception. 

That said, there's no difference between Kosovo, South Serbia, Montenegro, North and Central Albanians, and Albanians from Macedonia. The difference is only with South Albania due to its higher R1a, I2a, and J2a haplgroups.

----------


## Aspurg

I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian. 


Also there are 3 Z17107>BY4461, 2 in Smyrna. F2 from Smyrna has only few STR's but on those he seems closer to BY4461 F90 from Phocaea than to F49 from Smyrna (3/25 to 5/25 and a match on dys458=19). F90 and F2 seem likely connected to a BY4461 Turk, who seems closely related to a Macedonian, who in turn on a high number of STR's seems only about 800-900 years away from Albanian E-Y92017 cluster so clearly these Greeks look Arvanite.


F49 from Smyrna looks definitely related to a Bulgarian Turk (due to his dys446 value), who is 11/67 with one Paloka and only 7/67 to Paloka from Ungrej. So he too looks Arvanite.


So among Smyrna Greeks there seems to exist unexpectedly a significant Arvanite presence, with 9/58 that is 15 %. In Phocaea there was one BY4461 but he seems like an immigrant from Smyrna. J-L283 seems not to have been present among Arvanites there, there is only one M241 in the study and he has some unusual values like dys19=17, dys447=29..



I wanted to post in "Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA" thread..  :Grin:  So mods please move it there if it doesn't belong here, albeit it still deals with Albanians. I don't think there is a special "Arvanite Y-DNA theme"..

----------


## Aspurg

About differences between Kosovo and Albanians from Albania, one notable difference is the Berisha-Sopi cluster E-FGC33614. In the "Y chromosome haplotypes in Albanian population from Kosovo" study it makes up 12 % of haplotypes (14/117), while it is much more rare in Albanians from Albania, none from the Arberesh study, one from Tirana (Aromanian study).. E-FGC33614 is seemingly to a significant degree behind the elevated E-V13 percentage in Kosovo Albanians.

----------


## Johane Derite

> I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian. 
> 
> 
> Also there are 3 Z17107>BY4461, 2 in Smyrna. F2 from Smyrna has only few STR's but on those he seems closer to BY4461 F90 from Phocaea than to F49 from Smyrna (3/25 to 5/25 and a match on dys458=19). F90 and F2 seem likely connected to a BY4461 Turk, who seems closely related to a Macedonian, who in turn on a high number of STR's seems only about 800-900 years away from Albanian E-Y92017 cluster so clearly these Greeks look Arvanite.
> 
> 
> F49 from Smyrna looks definitely related to a Bulgarian Turk (due to his dys446 value), who is 11/67 with one Paloka and only 7/67 to Paloka from Ungrej. So he too looks Arvanite.
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting find Aspurg!

----------


## Leka

Agreed, FGC33625 looks like an interesting branch. Most likely was a minor lineage in the past. So far it looks like it only expanded with Berisha and Sopi from North Albania (Puka), but mostly north-east into Kosove.

Not the only one however, there are similar cases in other regions but not as successful.

----------


## IllyrianDodona

This wiki map... is by no means proof of anything. And if you want to your pov to be considered seriously, dont cite open access platforms. Just FYI.

----------


## Aspurg

> I took a look at the Asia Minor Greek samples from "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization", and in Smyrna there were 6 Z2705 (dys393=13) so these ofc look clearly Arvanite having close matches with Albanians. However I noticed also one FGC11450 Cluster A, F20 from Smyrna (dys458=14, dys460=10, GATAH4=10) and 2/32 with closest Albanian. This is interesting because this cluster already has Arvanites, Greek from Euboea (where there was Arvanite presence) is 3/37 with one Albanian.


 So Greek kit 305424 is an Arvanite from Euboea, falls in Albanian cluster A. Lets see about cluster B, Y146086: Greek kits 295944 and IN37597 are both 3/37 with Qendro from Tepelenë in Southern Albania, and 1/37 & 3/37 with Metaj. Qendro and Metaj represent a sub-cluster within Albanian Y146086 with a back mutation on dys447 and obviously considering far greater diversity of this clade among Albanians and him being Tosk both of these Greeks seem to be of certain Arvanite origin. So thus far of four Greek E-FGC11450 with more STR's all of them are of Arvanite origin. Going by this it seems vast majority of Greek FGC11450 are Arvanites as is the case with E-BY4461.

----------


## Trojet

> So Greek kit 305424 is an Arvanite from Euboea, falls in Albanian cluster A. Lets see about cluster B, Y146086: Greek kits 295944 and IN37597 are both 3/37 with Qendro from Tepelenë in Southern Albania, and 1/37 & 3/37 with Metaj. Qendro and Metaj represent a sub-cluster within Albanian Y146086 with a back mutation on dys447 and obviously considering far greater diversity of this clade among Albanians and him being Tosk both of these Greeks seem to be of certain Arvanite origin. So thus far of four Greek E-FGC11450 with more STR's all of them are of Arvanite origin. Going by this it seems vast majority of Greek FGC11450 are Arvanites as is the case with E-BY4461.


Yes, we're finding that E-FGC11450, and especially E-FGC11450>Y146086, is very common among Tosks. Currently, out of 56 E-V13 Tosk Y37+ haplotypes, 24 or *42.8% of Tosk E-V13 is E-FGC11450*. Furthermore, 18/24 of them are E-FGC11450>Y146086, 4/24 are E-FGC11450>Cluster A, and the remaining two don't fit into any of these clusters. One of them is SNP tested: FGC11450+ and Z24130- Y146086- BY5004- FGC11446-. YSEQ doesn't test ZS1176/FGC11444, so he should be either E-FGC11450* or E-FGC11450>ZS1176* by current research. Also, both E-FGC11450>Y146086 and E-FGC11450>Cluster A have been observed among Ghegs, though the first one is far more common among Tosks. So yes, those Greeks clustering with Albanians certainly seem Arvanite in origin.

----------


## Frosty_Chateux

> The Balkans are a very diverse and mixed place and it's the oldest part of Europe, this is a fact. So it's not that strange you have a lot of territorial pissing contests. It's not some genetic hatred we have for one another, it's basically all politics and bickering over history.
> From my experince Balkan people in diaspora get along with each other very well, regardless of ethnicity. Here in the states I've had Albanian friends, Kosovar Albanias, Bosniak, Croats, Serbs. None of them hate each other to the contrary they're always friendly and respectful and get along real well. It's like we know we're from the same region and we share similar cultures and customs and that brings us closer. Even religion doesn't create obstacles. It's a shame we can't get along better in our native lands. I blame politics for that and difficult economic conditions and a lot of propaganda. The current nationalism and racism has spread like a plague in Balkans especially since the late 80's and most of the people got nothing positive from it, only a very small percentage capitalized on it.


Albanians are mostly in their own cliques, they don't hang out or relate too much with Balkan Slavs from what I've seen. "Balkan culture" is mostly code for Yugoslavia, Albania was separate from them and had a more orthodox form of communism.

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## TaktikatEMalet

North albanians = least "foreign" input, communist regime probably helped with that

Kosovar/macedonian albanians = more south slavic input

South albanians/tosks = more south slavic input (this is puzzling), more greek or maybe more italian input

Arbereshe = were the tosks of old, similar to current tosks but had even more south slavic/greek input? And obviously more italian input after they settled in italy
I find it weird that tosks have more south slavic y dna input but then greeks have even more so not sure what happened there. The greek input is less puzzling because it seems like proto albanians moved south into formerly greek areas and especially illyrians prior did, so the +5% greek y dna would likely be from the natives that lived amongst proto albanians when they conquered the region

----------


## Riverman

> North albanians = least "foreign" input, communist regime probably helped with that
> 
> Kosovar/macedonian albanians = more south slavic input
> 
> South albanians/tosks = more south slavic input (this is puzzling), more greek or maybe more italian input
> 
> Arbereshe = were the tosks of old, similar to current tosks but had even more south slavic/greek input? And obviously more italian input
> 
> I find it weird that tosks have more south slavic input but then greeks have even more so not sure what happened there. The greek (or italian) input is less puzzling because it seems like proto albanians moved south into formerly greek areas and especially illyrians prior did, so the +5% greek y dna would likely be from the natives that lived amongst proto albanians when they conquered the region



Which paternal and maternal haplogroups could be associated with this. Might be interesting but complicated to investigate.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Which paternal and maternal haplogroups could be associated with this. Might be interesting but complicated to investigate.


I was stricly speaking about y dna, looks like some g2a and j2a in south albania is from greek natives that were assimilated when proto albanians moved south? Looking at some of the lines I ran into these concrete answers, if i had more time i would look into every line but it seems i oversold a greek origin as roman origin could be more prevalent? -

The DNA of two male Minoan indivuals was tested in 2020 and they belonged to G2a-P303 and J2a1a-L26 > Z6055 > Y7010 > Y13128 > Z36834 (a branch found in Portugal today).
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P303/
(3 albanians so far have this, 2 gjirokaster/1 korce)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834/
(2 albanians so far have this from vlore)

However, it looks like some j2a in albanians is also from imperial romans. They apparently carried 50% J lines, mostly j2a but also some j2b including m205!
J2a1a	1-400 CE	J-Z6271
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/
(6 albanians so far have this, 5 tirane/1 gjirokaster)

This looks roman as well, 2 samples were found in viminacium -
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-L497/
(2 albanians so far have this from gjirokaster)

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## Riverman

> I was stricly speaking about y dna, looks like some g2a and j2a in south albania is from greek natives that were assimilated when proto albanians moved south? Looking at some of the lines I ran into these concrete answers, if i had more time i would look into every line but it seems i oversold a greek origin as roman origin could be more prevalent? -
> The DNA of two male Minoan indivuals was tested in 2020 and they belonged to G2a-P303 and J2a1a-L26 > Z6055 > Y7010 > Y13128 > Z36834 (a branch found in Portugal today).
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P303/
> (3 albanians so far have this, 2 gjirokaster/1 korce)
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834/
> (2 albanians so far have this from vlore)
> However, it looks like some j2a in albanians is also from imperial romans. They apparently carried 50% J lines, mostly j2a but also some j2b including m205!
> J2a1a 1-400 CE J-Z6271
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/
> ...


Talking about Roman or more generally Northern source regions, I guess a lot of the E-V13 will be shown to have come from Roman times too, especially subclades with "no framework" in Albanians, but rather singular lineages with a later founder effect.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Talking about Roman or more generally Northern source regions, I guess a lot of the E-V13 will be shown to have come from Roman times too, especially subclades with "no framework" in Albanians, but rather singular lineages with a later founder effect.


I understand but i was speaking of actual roman natives, the imperials that spoke latin - apparently 50% of them carried J lines, mostly j2a

It is unlikely they had much to do with v13 internally (maybe a small percentage) but as we know the romans deployed various people from within their empire so of course romanized v13 people would have also moved around with the romans when need be and would have had to settle in far away places for their title/employment reasons

Reason why i have confidence in suggesting they had little to do with v13 genetically is because we find very little u152 in balkans today, even less than the g2a and obviously j lines they carried, especially j2a. If imperial romans carried 50% j lines, 15-20% g2a and lets also say 15-20% u152 (though it should be more right?), 5-10% T, it leaves very little room for anything else to explain the boom of v13 in balkans

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## Riverman

Yes, completely agree. I rather spoke about Balkan IA people moving southward as Roman provincials from various tribes especially in the migration period. We know from many regions that they tried to invade the tribal conquerors and moved to areas dominated by Romans and allies. Albania and the more Southern Balkan might have served as sort of a refuge in the early stages of people from the Danubian provinces for example.

----------


## Hawk

> Yes, completely agree. I rather spoke about Balkan IA people moving southward as Roman provincials from various tribes especially in the migration period. We know from many regions that they tried to invade the tribal conquerors and moved to areas dominated by Romans and allies. Albania and the more Southern Balkan might have served as sort of a refuge in the early stages of people from the Danubian provinces for example.


Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.

Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.

----------


## Riverman

> Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.
> 
> Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.


These two things being actually connected, because the Cimmerians were foreign to the region and pushed and destroyed many of the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware groups. There were basically two major surviving nests: In the North, in the mountainous regions, especially Transcarpathia and in the South, from where Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi emerged. But those groups in between, and this is key, didn't completely disappear, and even Bosut-Basarabi became heavily influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Note the difference: 
- Cimmerians
- Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and its influence

The latter soon became completely mixed but was very influential for the developing cultures, especially of the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere. So in the end, while we already know the earliest Cimmerians were different people, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, as a migration event and cultural horizon, spread Daco-Thracian ancestry wide and far. 

Its similar to the later Thraco-Scythians and Geto-Scythians, of which we already have plenty of samples: They are usually much more Pannonian and Thracian-like respectively than anything else! And its from these mixed groups, of which some even retained Daco-Thracian languages, that there were wider spread and backflow onto the steppe. You might have noticed in papers about Carpathian "Scythians" that their ceramic is fairly conservative and regional at first. The question is just: How much of this was female transmitted, how well did the males? I'd say that E-V13 got in their former core regions heavily reduced, both by Cimmerians and Scythians, but didn't disappear. Whereas in the more Southern centres, in which these Cimmerian and Scythian influences remained primarily culturally, and there never was such a big impact, more of the regional paternal ancestry survived. 
That's at least up to this point my impression, unless they had the biggest founder effects in Psenichevo-Basarabi to begin with. To explore that, we need many samples from the cultural formations in the Northern Carpathians, for the phases in which some of them at least didn't cremate. Then it can be checked probably. Fszesabony-late Otomani might prove to be interesting as well.

Thraco-Cimmerian influences spread very far and wide, deeply into Central Europe. These weren't all pure Cimmerians, especially in the later stages.

----------


## TaktikatEMalet

> Self-serving hypothesis are not good buddy, trying to [Balto-Slavicize, Iranicize] E-V13 is absurd, it has nothing to do with those aforementioned or related people(Thraco-Cimmerians, which is a culture that started in North Caucasus => clearly hinting Indo-Iranian core ancestry). It's an attempt which will be dismissed in the papers that will come out sooner or latter.
> Well, even Romanians/Moldovans have failed so far to show any kind of significant E-V13 diversity (we haven't seen any so far, despite this idea being pushed by some). It looks like the core E-V13 was in Central and South Balkans during EIA.


Yes and i do find it funny how people look at autosomnal dna from clearly heavily celtic mixed samples and then say how come modern albanians arent closely related to these, why are they are more "near east shifted". Of course modern albanians would be more near east shifted because the ancient samples we have from western balkans so far are all very north within the tumulus/urnfield network. They were mixed with the italo celtic people maternally

----------


## Hawk

> These two things being actually connected, because the Cimmerians were foreign to the region and pushed and destroyed many of the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware groups. There were basically two major surviving nests: In the North, in the mountainous regions, especially Transcarpathia and in the South, from where Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi emerged. But those groups in between, and this is key, didn't completely disappear, and even Bosut-Basarabi became heavily influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Note the difference: 
> - Cimmerians
> - Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and its influence
> 
> The latter soon became completely mixed but was very influential for the developing cultures, especially of the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere. So in the end, while we already know the earliest Cimmerians were different people, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, as a migration event and cultural horizon, spread Daco-Thracian ancestry wide and far. 
> 
> Its similar to the later Thraco-Scythians and Geto-Scythians, of which we already have plenty of samples: They are usually much more Pannonian and Thracian-like respectively than anything else! And its from these mixed groups, of which some even retained Daco-Thracian languages, that there were wider spread and backflow onto the steppe. You might have noticed in papers about Carpathian "Scythians" that their ceramic is fairly conservative and regional at first. The question is just: How much of this was female transmitted, how well did the males? I'd say that E-V13 got in their former core regions heavily reduced, both by Cimmerians and Scythians, but didn't disappear. Whereas in the more Southern centres, in which these Cimmerian and Scythian influences remained primarily culturally, and there never was such a big impact, more of the regional paternal ancestry survived. 
> That's at least up to this point my impression, unless they had the biggest founder effects in Psenichevo-Basarabi to begin with. To explore that, we need many samples from the cultural formations in the Northern Carpathians, for the phases in which some of them at least didn't cremate. Then it can be checked probably. F�szesabony-late Otomani might prove to be interesting as well.
> 
> Thraco-Cimmerian influences spread very far and wide, deeply into Central Europe. These weren't all pure Cimmerians, especially in the later stages.


They might have played some minimal role, but absolutely nothing significant, at least i am not convinced, sorry.

We have discussed before, i am of the opinion, in fact, it's very straightforward. Gava/Channeled-Ware along with some other Middle Danube Urnfield, Grla-Mare/Dubovac-Zuto Brdo/Brnjica, Vatin, Paracin/Mediana, Psenicevo-Babadag. All of these had E-V13, some more some less.

I find the Thraco-Cimmerian label ambigious, we don't know who they were, and where did they come from, what language did they spoke, and who were their descendants. It's all open to interpretations.

----------


## Riverman

> They might have played some minimal role, but absolutely nothing significant, at least i am not convinced, sorry.


The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was culturally influential for generations and connected the Carpathian sphere with the more Upper Danubian and North Italian even more directly than Urnfield before, which was more split into provinces/groups. That's why its important to mention, they pushed and pulled Daco-Thracian elements, which were still concentrated along the Carpathians largely, West and South, both directly and indirectly. Like in the Veneti, Frg, Kalenderberg group in Eastern Hallstatt, they all preserved elements of this Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and being directly connected to Basarabi the same time. The network which came up with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon persisted. The innovations brought by the Cimmerians were spread by the Daco-Thracians, especially Basarabi, too. 




> We have discussed before, i am of the opinion, in fact, it's very straightforward. Gava/Channeled-Ware along with some other Middle Danube Urnfield, Grla-Mare/Dubovac-Zuto Brdo/Brnjica, Vatin, Paracin/Mediana, Psenicevo-Babadag. All of these had E-V13, some more some less.


Probably, but I think Gva/Channelled Ware is the real core and much of the others being derivatives or predecessors anyway. However, Middle Danubian Urnfield in the narrower sense is probably a group apart, because like I said, they are too much Western Bell Beaker derived, unlike Kyjatice-Gva. I largely agree with you anyway, but Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt is not who got it first, but about who spread it West. Actually its these two cultural formations which brought the Daco-Thracian E-V13 West like a Wedge, right through the more Pannonian-Illyrian Middle Danubian and Para-Celtic territory. 

On a large map, you can really see that the Cimmerian and Scythian intrusions into the Carpathians pushed many elements, almost all Daco-Thracian in origin, West, first while fleeing from them, then with them, later by people which copied 1:1 Cimmerian and Scythian styles, but being genetically fully Daco-Thracian and Pannonian. Whether they were E-V13 dominated or not, autosomally that's clear.




> I find the Thraco-Cimmerian label ambigious, we don't know who they were, and where did they come from, what language did they spoke, and who were their descendants. It's all open to interpretations.


We have some "original Cimmerians" and they are pretty mixed. Like one in Central Europe had haplogroup N and was autosomally quite different from the Kyjatice sample BR2, I wrote about it here: 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post633773

So you see two completely different populations, one being related to Vatya, Mako, Epi-Corded and the other wild mixture from the East. The first are Daco-Thracian related, Pannonian-Carpathian Urnfielders, the second the steppe alliance of the Cimmerians. 

The point is, they introduced and spread iron working techniques, they did introduce new horse gear and tactics, most likely new horse breeds also. And these spread among the elites of all Eastern and Central European groups, throughout most of the Urnfield networks, but not all. Like the Transcarpathian Gva people resisted in fortified areas for a prolonged period of time and got less Thraco-Cimmerian horizon influences than Basarabi! 
But otherwise, you see the whole elite from Southern Germany, Northern Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia etc., they all adopted the whole package or many elements of it. And those which adopted the most from the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and kept these traits the longest are the groups closer connected to Basarabi too! Like Frg and Kalenderberg for example, vs. the much less influenced Unterkrainische group, which was more in the Illyrian tradition. 

There you see that after the initial impact, Thracian and Cimmerian elements fused to something new, which was fundamental for the final stage of the Bronze Age and the introduction of Hallstatt. But Hallstatt was full of elements from Channelled Ware and Encrusted Ware influences too! That means you see here two main elements at work: Thraco-Cimmerian horizon/Cimmerian influences, Channelled Ware traditions with Encrusted Ware influences. 
"Hallstattisation" is basically Channelled Ware with Cimmerian ideological-religious and material influences from my point of view. That's what really brought it West. Because where Gva Urnfield stopped in Eastern Germany, Bohemia, Austria-West Hungary etc., Hallstatt went right through and Thraco-Cimmerian elites with it. 

We know it from the "Scythian" finds too: In some there were mostly or even pure Daco-Thracian and Pannonian people, but sometimes in complete "Scythian gear". That's just what the elite warriors adopted and the lifestyle the surviving locals embraced. The question is how much paternal replacement the Cimmerians and Scythians caused, but in my opinion not too much, because the haplogroups associated and found so far were much less common afterwards than the rather Thraco-Illyrian ones. 

Like Yamnaya thousands of years before: The initial impact was huge, but the genetic legacy comparatively small. Same for Cimmerians and Scythians, but apparently not the Daco-Thracians which spread the fused culture, they had more of an impact. For the Cimmerians we don't have enough samples, and the rite of cremation among many of the Channelled Ware and Eastern Hallstatt people makes it difficult, but for the Scythian case some generations later, its easy to see: 



https://ibb.co/cCKD3Bj

There are relatively "pure", "mixed" and "local" individuals within the "Scythian" cultural context. There was also exchange between the Pannonian Thraco-Scythians and the Moldovan Geto-Scythians. There are outliers in the clusters of the respective other group. 

Thraco-Cimmerian elements in the burials, which is the main thing, will be even more "local" or in many Eastern Hallstatt instances Daco-Thracian/Basarabi related than these. The elites in Frg buried as horse warriors are likely to have been very strongly Daco-Thracian/Basarabi influenced. Unfortunately they mostly cremated, but we know from the inventory that both male and female elite individuals moved from Basarabi to Frg, but there is little evidence for a movement in the opposite direction! So the whole Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt based on it created a primary mode of cultural transmission and people moving from East (Carpathians and further) to the West (Danubian-Alpine sphere). That's true for the formative period of early Hallstatt in particular.

Pre-Scythian Mezcst = Thraco-Cimmerian core. It shows primarily steppe Cimmerian elements on top of local Channelled Ware people. Like I said, the tested individual was East Asian admixed and had yDNA N. Let's see what others might bring. Probably some being in the new British paper, because they didn't cremate...

----------


## torzio

> These two things being actually connected, because the Cimmerians were foreign to the region and pushed and destroyed many of the Daco-Thracian/Channelled Ware groups. There were basically two major surviving nests: In the North, in the mountainous regions, especially Transcarpathia and in the South, from where Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi emerged. But those groups in between, and this is key, didn't completely disappear, and even Bosut-Basarabi became heavily influenced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon. Note the difference: 
> - Cimmerians
> - Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and its influence
> The latter soon became completely mixed but was very influential for the developing cultures, especially of the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere. So in the end, while we already know the earliest Cimmerians were different people, the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, as a migration event and cultural horizon, spread Daco-Thracian ancestry wide and far. 
> Its similar to the later Thraco-Scythians and Geto-Scythians, of which we already have plenty of samples: They are usually much more Pannonian and Thracian-like respectively than anything else! And its from these mixed groups, of which some even retained Daco-Thracian languages, that there were wider spread and backflow onto the steppe. You might have noticed in papers about Carpathian "Scythians" that their ceramic is fairly conservative and regional at first. The question is just: How much of this was female transmitted, how well did the males? I'd say that E-V13 got in their former core regions heavily reduced, both by Cimmerians and Scythians, but didn't disappear. Whereas in the more Southern centres, in which these Cimmerian and Scythian influences remained primarily culturally, and there never was such a big impact, more of the regional paternal ancestry survived. 
> That's at least up to this point my impression, unless they had the biggest founder effects in Psenichevo-Basarabi to begin with. To explore that, we need many samples from the cultural formations in the Northern Carpathians, for the phases in which some of them at least didn't cremate. Then it can be checked probably. F�szesabony-late Otomani might prove to be interesting as well.
> Thraco-Cimmerian influences spread very far and wide, deeply into Central Europe. These weren't all pure Cimmerians, especially in the later stages.


Not all the cimmerians moved to the south caucasus to kingdom of Urartu (an old name for Armenia).

The Cimmerians were closely related and are archaeologically almost identical to the Scythians, who may have expelled them from their home country. Archaeologists have identified the Cimmerians with the Novocerkassk culture on the grass plains between the river Prut and the Lower Don (c.900-c.650 BCE).

are they similar to Circassians ???

----------


## Riverman

Cimmerians seem to have varied, I doubt the people on the move under that label were that homogeneous.
What sticks out is that at least some of these people on the move had significant East Asian admixture, more than the later Scythians.

----------


## Hawk

> The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon was culturally influential for generations and connected the Carpathian sphere with the more Upper Danubian and North Italian even more directly than Urnfield before, which was more split into provinces/groups. That's why its important to mention, they pushed and pulled Daco-Thracian elements, which were still concentrated along the Carpathians largely, West and South, both directly and indirectly. Like in the Veneti, Fr�g, Kalenderberg group in Eastern Hallstatt, they all preserved elements of this Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and being directly connected to Basarabi the same time. The network which came up with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon persisted. The innovations brought by the Cimmerians were spread by the Daco-Thracians, especially Basarabi, too. 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, but I think G�va/Channelled Ware is the real core and much of the others being derivatives or predecessors anyway. However, Middle Danubian Urnfield in the narrower sense is probably a group apart, because like I said, they are too much Western Bell Beaker derived, unlike Kyjatice-G�va. I largely agree with you anyway, but Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt is not who got it first, but about who spread it West. Actually its these two cultural formations which brought the Daco-Thracian E-V13 West like a Wedge, right through the more Pannonian-Illyrian Middle Danubian and Para-Celtic territory. 
> 
> On a large map, you can really see that the Cimmerian and Scythian intrusions into the Carpathians pushed many elements, almost all Daco-Thracian in origin, West, first while fleeing from them, then with them, later by people which copied 1:1 Cimmerian and Scythian styles, but being genetically fully Daco-Thracian and Pannonian. Whether they were E-V13 dominated or not, autosomally that's clear.
> 
> 
> ...


Not really. Thraco-Cimmerian influence on Italy and Central-Europe is negligible. I don't think some of the very old E-V13 branches in Central Europe are due to Thraco-Cimmerians or Daco-Thracians who are an Iron Age ethnicities.

----------


## Riverman

> Not really. Thraco-Cimmerian influence on Italy and Central-Europe is negligible. I don't think some of the very old E-V13 branches in Central Europe are due to Thraco-Cimmerians or Daco-Thracians who are an Iron Age ethnicities.


Yes, some branches moved through Urnfield networks earlier, others with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-Hallstatt later. Both did happen.
If we identify Channelled Ware with Daco-Thracians, then they already had a significant influence on the Middle Danubian group through infiltration in the border zone, where we have increased Kyjatice-Gava finds.
Its just I think they started separated, largely, but they had large zones of interaction once Urnfield was established.
This was however more about clans and individuals, rather than whole tribes marching, with the exception of the very borderzone, where its possible.
Middle Danubians also reached the Danubian zone, so it was reciprocal.

----------


## Hawk

> Yes, some branches moved through Urnfield networks earlier, others with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Basarabi-Hallstatt later. Both did happen.
> If we identify Channelled Ware with Daco-Thracians, then they already had a significant influence on the Middle Danubian group through infiltration in the border zone, where we have increased Kyjatice-Gava finds.
> Its just I think they started separated, largely, but they had large zones of interaction once Urnfield was established.
> This was however more about clans and individuals, rather than whole tribes marching, with the exception of the very borderzone, where its possible.
> Middle Danubians also reached the Danubian zone, so it was reciprocal.


In my opinion, Channeled-Ware + Thraco-Cimmerian mix is what made the Daco-Thracians, that would make sense and would give an explanation at why Thracian costumes, horse-breeding and riding attachments were so similar to Scythians and Indo-Iranians. Otherwise their Channeled-Ware ancestors preferred the proto-phalanx-like formation or battle-style.

----------


## Riverman

> In my opinion, Channeled-Ware + Thraco-Cimmerian mix is what made the Daco-Thracians, that would make sense and would give an explanation at why Thracian costumes, horse-breeding and riding attachments were so similar to Scythians and Indo-Iranians. Otherwise their Channeled-Ware ancestors preferred the proto-phalanx-like formation or battle-style.


Yes, agree. It was kind of reduction in societal complexity initially, we can also observe the transition to pastoralist economy and transhumance, reduced settlements and population density. Initially it did really hurt the Daco-Thracians massively and I expect a reduction of their patrilineages.
But like I said before, two independent groups remained, Transcarpathian and Danube, with the latter being more important, leading to Psenichevo-Basarabi and eventually Hallstatt.
After that, the Scythian influence was minimum as impactful. Note e.g. the Vekerzug group of Thraco-Scythians.

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## TaktikatEMalet

> In my opinion, Channeled-Ware + Thraco-Cimmerian mix is what made the Daco-Thracians, that would make sense and would give an explanation at why Thracian costumes, horse-breeding and riding attachments were so similar to Scythians and Indo-Iranians. Otherwise their Channeled-Ware ancestors preferred the proto-phalanx-like formation or battle-style.


Which would mean they may have had plenty of r1a and some q-l54 -

'Järve (2019)[3] studied genetics of various peoples belonging to the Scythian cultures, such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Saka. Mostly of the remains in all groups were found to carry various subclades of haplogroup R1a, with a few haplogroup Q samples also found."

Eastern scythians - 

"Mary (2019)[18] studied the genetics of remains from the Aldy-Bel culture in and around Tuva in central Asia, adjacent to western Mongolia; the Aldy-Bel culture is considered one of the Scythian cultures. The majority of the samples (9 out of 17) were found to be carriers of haplogroup R1a, including two carriers of haplogroup R1a1a1b2‑Z93. East Asian admixture was also detected, as 6 haplogroup Q-L54 (including 5 in Sagly culture) and 1 haplogroup N-M231 were excavated. The haplogroup of the remaining 1 sample was uncertain (probably group R)."

There is a complete lack of these lines in western balkans though a bit more frequent in the east. Serbs, Poles and Turks seem to have a fair amount of N but they likely come from different sources - 
https://www.yfull.com/tree/n/

Srubnaya can also be ruled out for v13 -

"In 2018, a genetic study of the earlier Srubnaya culture, and later peoples of the Scythian cultures, including the Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, was published in Science Advances. Six males from two sites ascribed to the Srubnaya culture were analysed, and were all found to possess haplogroup R1a1a1. Cimmerian, Sarmatian and Scythian males were however found have mostly haplogroup R1b1a1a2, although one Sarmatian male carried haplogroup R1a1a1."

We have yet to find any v13 in urnfield either. The lack of ancient dna from south europe and the fact that v13 has yet to be found in central european cultures, is that not a coincidence? If we want to solve v13, maybe more effort should be put into finding ancient dna in south europe

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## Riverman

The samples from 3 upcoming studies are promising. British replacement paper with Central European and Balkan samples, Thracians from the Bulgarian Iron Age, the Pannonian study.
All three seem to have E-V13, from different times and contexts.
We need some lucky strikes also, because the supposed E-V13 core groups, almost all potential ones, used cremation over prolonged periods of time.
They were among the earliest and latest in Europe to burn their dead.
Similar problems arise with early Hittites, Germanics and Slavs.
Its very clear that for early E-V13 are only specific time windows and special, irregular burials key.
But I am confident that both Psenichevo and Bosut-Basarabi will have plenty of it, yet that doesn't answer which exact path it took before and the lack of subclades hurts.

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## Hawk

> Which would mean they may have had plenty of r1a and some q-l54 -
> 'Järve (2019)[3] studied genetics of various peoples belonging to the Scythian cultures, such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Saka. Mostly of the remains in all groups were found to carry various subclades of haplogroup R1a, with a few haplogroup Q samples also found."
> Eastern scythians - 
> "Mary (2019)[18] studied the genetics of remains from the Aldy-Bel culture in and around Tuva in central Asia, adjacent to western Mongolia; the Aldy-Bel culture is considered one of the Scythian cultures. The majority of the samples (9 out of 17) were found to be carriers of haplogroup R1a, including two carriers of haplogroup R1a1a1b2‑Z93. East Asian admixture was also detected, as 6 haplogroup Q-L54 (including 5 in Sagly culture) and 1 haplogroup N-M231 were excavated. The haplogroup of the remaining 1 sample was uncertain (probably group R)."
> There is a complete lack of these lines in western balkans though a bit more frequent in the east. Serbs, Poles and Turks seem to have a fair amount of N but they likely come from different sources - 
> https://www.yfull.com/tree/n/
> Srubnaya can also be ruled out for v13 -
> "In 2018, a genetic study of the earlier Srubnaya culture, and later peoples of the Scythian cultures, including the Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, was published in Science Advances. Six males from two sites ascribed to the Srubnaya culture were analysed, and were all found to possess haplogroup R1a1a1. Cimmerian, Sarmatian and Scythian males were however found have mostly haplogroup R1b1a1a2, although one Sarmatian male carried haplogroup R1a1a1."
> We have yet to find any v13 in urnfield either. The lack of ancient dna from south europe and the fact that v13 has yet to be found in central european cultures, is that not a coincidence? If we want to solve v13, maybe more effort should be put into finding ancient dna in south europe


We already have Late Neolithic samples from Bulgaria and there is a lack of E-V13, and we have Early Bronze Age samples from Albania and E-V13 lacks, E-V13 lacks in Croatia as well also Trypillian Ukraine and very likely it wa abset in Romania. So what's left? Greece and Central Europe (Eastern Austria, Northern Hungary, South-Eastern Slovakia/Czech)? Considering the earlier split of E-V13 maps and corresponds more Southern Central Europe then chances are way higher it's the latter. I mean, you should check the Czech archeologist Jan Bouzek, he argues that the South-East Urnfielders massively migrated into Balkans, and a specific group of them after mixing with Achaeans formed the classical Greeks. That was his opinion.

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## Riverman

> ...and very likely it wa abset in Romania.


Not that quick. We have to concentrate on North Western Romania, Eastern Slovakia and very North Eastern Hungary for *the MBA-LBA*. The question is where is the E1b1b from the Pannonian and British study from.

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## Hawk

> Not that quick. We have to concentrate on North Western Romania, Eastern Slovakia and very North Eastern Hungary for *the MBA-LBA*. The question is where is the E1b1b from the Pannonian and British study from.


I am talking about Late Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age, and Romania as a whole can be safely removed from equation.  :Wink:

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## Riverman

> I am talking about Late Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age, and Romania as a whole can be safely removed from equation.



Wouldn't be that sure either, because they might have migrated the Danube and Tisza up and down, if not staying North already from Lengyel colonists, because they settled in the Carpathians and persisted there longer than elsewhere.

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