# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics > Dodecad >  Dodecad 12b - Maltese results

## HQ420832

Here are (for the first time I think) the Dodecad 12b results for of a friend from Malta (all known ancestors from Malta). Not surprisingly, his results are quite similar to Sicilians but with a higher African component (North/West/East=8.0% vs 5.0%) quite similar to Portuguese (8.5%). 

Component
Maltese
Sicilian_D

Caucasus
34.8
36.5

Atlantic_Med
25.3
30

Southwest_Asian
13.2
11.9

North_European
11.5
11.9

Gedrosia
6.8
4.5

Northwest_African
6.1
4.1

Sub_Saharan
1.0
0.2

East_African
0.9
0.7

South_Asian
0.2
0.1

East_Asian
0.2
0.0

Southeast_Asian
0.1
0.0

Siberian
0.0
0.0



Same for Dodecad Globe 13:

Component
Maltese
 Sicilian_D

Mediterranean
36.4
40.6

West_Asian
24.9
23.6

Southwest_Asian
19.5
17.3

North_European
15
16.5

East_African
1.7
0.5

West_African
1.3
1

Palaeo_African
0.0
0.2

Australasian
0.5
0.2

East_Asian
0.5
0.1

Siberian
0.2
0.0

South_Asian
0.0
0.0

Amerindian
0.0
0.0

Arctic
0.0
0.0

----------


## Hauteville

Yes it's like i have seen in Lazaridis, basically Sicilians with a bit more NA and South West Asian admix. 
Maltese are probably very close with Pantellerians and Lampedusans.

Here we have collected some results for Sicilians and mainlander southern Italians, if you want a comparison.

http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/...1#.VVMsXvntmko

----------


## Maleth

> Here are (for the first time I think) the Dodecad 12b results for of a friend from Malta (all known ancestors from Malta). Not surprisingly, his results are quite similar to Sicilians but with a higher African component (North/West/East=8.0% vs 5.0%) quite similar to Portuguese (8.5%). 
> 
> Component
> Maltese
> Sicilian_D
> 
> Caucasus
> 34.8
> 36.5
> ...


These are my Dodecad run on 12b which I posted on 5th February. :- 

_Admix Results (sorted):

_*#
Population
Percent

1
Atlantic_Med
28.76

2
Caucasus
28.66

3
North_European
16.86

4
Southwest_Asian
10.52

5
Northwest_African
7.06

6
Gedrosia
5.85

7
East_African
1.10




Has your friend tested with Ftdna? Maybe he would be interested to join the Malta Project https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults. If all companies could pool their results in one project we could have a much more accurate picture then any of the separate studies that have been conducted so far.

Also now that I have learned how these calculators work (thanks to Angela) there is surely lots of fine tuning to be done to get more specific results and are based on particular samples that do not always represent the region to any specification or accuracy.*

----------


## Hauteville

HQ420832 do you have his Eurogenes K13/15 results?

Maleth are you full blooded Maltese?

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## Angela

Maleth, if you don't mind my asking, how does that jive with your scores for North African and East African on 23andme?

I ask because my shares on 23andme from Sicily have much lower NWAfrican and East African than shows up on these calculators.

Ed. Oh dear, I had a minor brain freeze, didn't I? You didn't test with 23andme.
Sorry. :)

----------


## Hauteville

I think that the scores under 1% are rumours more than other.
23andme use different systems than Dodecad.

----------


## Maleth

> HQ420832 do you have his Eurogenes K13/15 results?
> 
> Maleth are you full blooded Maltese?


Interesting question, the only non Maltese I know of at least since medieval times was my great grand father who was English, but all in all I am presuming it counts minimally in an autosmal situation. I believe autosmal covers some 20 generations? (not sure about that either maybe I am wrong). There are some 3% percent of Maltese in this situation, More recently (as in the last 30 years there has been further substantial gene inputs probably similar percentages in the Maltese gene pool from North Africa, Balkans, East and western Europe. In a couple of generations they would not be considered as alien but an admixture.

----------


## Angela

> I think that the scores under 1% are rumours more than other.
> 23andme use different systems than Dodecad.


Yes, I know they're different systems; the question is which is more accurate.

I'd put my money on 23andme any day. 

I also don't know what you mean by scores under 1% for Sicilians on 23andme being "rumours". They're not rumors, they're my shares. :) They may or may not be representative, but they're "real" Sicilians.

These are all from Messina, which I admit might impact the scores given that the mountains near there were relatively autonomous from Muslim rule.

1) 2.4% NAfrican
0% SSA

2.) 2.2% NAfrican
.6% SSA (.3 W. African, .2 East African, .1 Broadly SSA)

3.) 4.1% NAfrican
.3% West African

4) .1% NAfrican
.1% SSA

This Palermo sample also has very low numbers, although there's one Calabrian grandparent in this case.

.2% NAfrican
.1% WAfrican

By the way, is there any sort of reciprocal arrangement so that people who tested with FTDNA can run their results through the 23andme algorithm. I'm not talking about running their results through the gedmatch versions of the various hobbyist calculators, but actually through the 23andme algorithm. I know there's a defunct company that did have that arrangement with 23andme, just don't know if one has been worked out with FTDNA or Ancestry.

Ed. I don't share with anyone from the southern coast where there was more documented actual Berber settlement, so those scores may be very different.

I think for accurate broad autosomal ancestry information you don't need very many samples, but for this kind of very minority ancestry you might see swings from region to region or even town to town, especially given how little movement there was from some of these more isolated rural areas. It's the same situation that you see in some Alpine isolates in Italy. They're not representative of the population as a whole.

----------


## Hauteville

@Maleth I think a minimal influences there is and in fact you score higher North European than to the other Maltese, maybe it's due to your British grandfather.
I have also myself a distant British ancestry but in the first years of 1800, unlucky I haven't searched down than 1780, so I don't know if I have other foreign ancestries from 1300 to 1750 but Palermo was a cosmopolite city so possibly yes, Aragonese, French or Austrian maybe.

No Angela I don't mean the results of North African scores but the 0.3, 0.2, 0.6 and similar scores of South Asian, SSA and East Asian.
Maybe rumours or prehistoric movements?

----------


## Angela

> @Maleth I think a minimal influences there is and in fact you score higher North European than to the other Maltese, maybe it's due to your British grandfather.
> I have also myself a distant British ancestry but in the first years of 1800, unlucky I haven't searched down than 1780, so I don't know if I have other foreign ancestries from 1300 to 1750 but Palermo was a cosmopolite city so possibly yes, Aragonese, French or Austrian maybe.
> 
> No Angela I don't mean the results of North African scores but the 0.3, 0.2, 0.6 and similar scores of South Asian, SSA and East Asian.
> Maybe rumours or prehistoric movements?


Ah, now I get you...you think that when they're that low they're noise...not representative of real ancestry, or at least not real admixture within, say, the last thousand years or so? Well, 23andme itself cautions against taking these kinds of scores too seriously. I would say anything below .5 is questionable. 

However, my point was that calculator scores are often higher. Between the two, I'd go with 23andme any day of the week, at least for ancestry from different continents... Even with the Ashkenazim, it's such a drifted set of genes that they can easily pick it up. Sephardim, etc. are another story. So, if you get a 2% Ashkenazi or SSA score on 23andme, you can take it to the bank as far as I'm concerned.

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## Hauteville

By the way, what is his haplogroup?

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## Seanp

Interesting results. These are Maltese, Southern Italians from Dodecad i recently found:
*
Full Maltese:*

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
40.78

2
Atlantic_Med
27.22

3
Southwest_Asian
11.39

4
North_European
7.82

5
Northwest_African
5.78

6
Gedrosia
4

7
East_African
2.41

8
Southeast_Asian
0.5

9
Siberian
0.09

10
Sub_Saharan
0.02



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
5.98

2
Sicilian (Dodecad)
6.46

3
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
6.55

4
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
6.77

5
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
7.07

6
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
9.56

7
Cypriots (Behar)
12.77

8
Greek (Dodecad)
13.05

9
C_Italian (Dodecad)
14.36

10
Turkish (Dodecad)
18.17

11
Tuscan (HGDP)
18.26

12
O_Italian (Dodecad)
18.93

13
TSI30 (Metspalu)
19.67

14
Lebanese (Behar)
19.85

15
Turks (Behar)
20.88

16
Druze (HGDP)
21.03

17
Syrians (Behar)
23.47

18
Jordanians (Behar)
23.78

19
Armenian (Dodecad)
25.02

20
Palestinian (HGDP)
25.11




*Campanian from Avellino, Caserta:
**#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
32.85

2
Atlantic_Med
29.31

3
Southwest_Asian
13.36

4
North_European
13

5
Gedrosia
7.92

6
Northwest_African
2.67

7
South_Asian
0.32

8
Sub_Saharan
0.29

9
East_African
0.28



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
4.24

2
Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.08

3
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
8.16

4
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.31

5
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
8.44

6
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
9.52

7
Greek (Dodecad)
9.63

8
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
11.25

9
O_Italian (Dodecad)
11.32

10
Tuscan (HGDP)
12

11
TSI30 (Metspalu)
12.98

12
N_Italian (Dodecad)
18.94

13
Cypriots (Behar)
19.05

14
North_Italian (HGDP)
19.98

15
Turkish (Dodecad)
20.99

16
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
22.33

17
Lebanese (Behar)
22.46

18
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
22.74

19
Turks (Behar)
23.38

20
Romanians (Behar)
23.61




*From Puglia, Fasano:
**#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
34

2
Atlantic_Med
26.6

3
North_European
17.8

4
Southwest_Asian
10.88

5
Gedrosia
7.58

6
Northwest_African
2.49

7
East_Asian
0.66



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Greek (Dodecad)
5.92

2
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
7.2

3
Sicilian (Dodecad)
7.52

4
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
8.16

5
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
8.53

6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.57

7
O_Italian (Dodecad)
9.6

8
Tuscan (HGDP)
12.05

9
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
13

10
TSI30 (Metspalu)
13.17

11
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
15.37

12
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
17.3

13
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
17.82

14
N_Italian (Dodecad)
18.52

15
Romanians (Behar)
18.81

16
Turkish (Dodecad)
19.62

17
Cypriots (Behar)
20.26

18
North_Italian (HGDP)
20.26

19
Turks (Behar)
22.06

20
Lebanese (Behar)
23.75




*Reggio Calabria:
**#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
35.89

2
Atlantic_Med
30.88

3
Southwest_Asian
13.2

4
Gedrosia
7.43

5
North_European
6.73

6
Northwest_African
3.64

7
East_African
2.22



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.51

2
Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.93

3
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
6.31

4
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
8.19

5
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
9.51

6
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
9.82

7
C_Italian (Dodecad)
12.11

8
Greek (Dodecad)
14.08

9
Tuscan (HGDP)
15.53

10
Cypriots (Behar)
16.37

11
TSI30 (Metspalu)
16.66

12
O_Italian (Dodecad)
16.69

13
Turkish (Dodecad)
21.01

14
Lebanese (Behar)
21.33

15
N_Italian (Dodecad)
23.13

16
North_Italian (HGDP)
23.42

17
Turks (Behar)
23.46

18
Syrians (Behar)
23.68

19
Druze (HGDP)
23.68

20
Jordanians (Behar)
24.46




*Sicilian from Palermo:
**#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
34.23

2
Atlantic_Med
24.51

3
North_European
13.68

4
Southwest_Asian
13.34

5
Northwest_African
6.93

6
Gedrosia
5.43

7
Sub_Saharan
1.12

8
Southeast_Asian
0.42

9
South_Asian
0.33

10
East_Asian
0.03



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
5.64

2
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
5.9

3
Sicilian (Dodecad)
6.69

4
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
7.23

5
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
8.59

6
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
10.02

7
Greek (Dodecad)
10.18

8
C_Italian (Dodecad)
12.09

9
O_Italian (Dodecad)
14.47

10
Tuscan (HGDP)
16.27

11
TSI30 (Metspalu)
17.18

12
Cypriots (Behar)
17.41

13
Turkish (Dodecad)
19.15

14
Lebanese (Behar)
19.78

15
Turks (Behar)
21.38

16
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
21.76

17
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
22.26

18
N_Italian (Dodecad)
22.69

19
Syrians (Behar)
22.77

20
Romanians (Behar)
23.33

----------


## Joey D

Just thought I'd throw mine in:

Caucasus
37.67

Atlantic_Med
25.61

North_European
13.81

Southwest_Asian
10.26

Gedrosia
7.38

Northwest_African
3.67

East_African
1.13

Sub_Saharan
0.45



Single Population:
1
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
5.36

2
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.47

3
Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.56

4
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
6.29

5
Greek (Dodecad)
7.95

6
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
9.52

7
C_Italian (Dodecad)
10.89

8
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
12.75

9
O_Italian (Dodecad)
13.7

10
Tuscan (HGDP)
14.8



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Abhkasians + North_Italian + Portuguese + Samaritians @ 1.351221
2 Abhkasians + Castilla_Y_Leon + N_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.517337
3 Abhkasians + Extremadura + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.523689
4 Abhkasians + Canarias + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.583644
5 Abhkasians + Castilla_Y_Leon + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.618618
6 Armenian + Bulgarians + Canarias + Cypriots @ 1.631697
7 Abhkasians + Galicia + North_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.683491
8 Abhkasians + Murcia + N_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.713063
9 Abhkasians + Canarias + N_Italian + Samaritians @ 1.717037
10 Armenians + Morocco_Jews + O_Italian + O_Italian @ 1.732806

----------


## Petros Agapetos

> These are my Dodecad run on 12b which I posted on 5th February. :- 
> 
> _Admix Results (sorted):
> 
> _*#
> Population
> Percent
> 
> 1
> ...


I wonder, how much did you pay for the test. And how is it done? Did you simply swab the inside of your mouth and send the sample?

----------


## Maleth

> I wonder, how much did you pay for the test. And how is it done? Did you simply swab the inside of your mouth and send the sample?


Hi Petros. I initially joined the Genoproject, it was 100$ at that time but had very basic info on results. I had to spend more through FTDNA (the work with National geographic) to have deeper tests as they were becoming available. Look at this link. I think the results now are more detailed. Its easy you receive two tubes with two small brushes in them and rub the inside of your mouth put back in tube and repost. Some other members here have been tested with other companies and they might have had better packages. 

https://shop.nationalgeographic.com/...k&code=MR21432

----------


## Hauteville

> Just thought I'd throw mine in:
> 
> Caucasus
> 37.67
> 
> Atlantic_Med
> 25.61
> 
> North_European
> ...


Mine

*Admix Results (sorted):

#
Population
Percent

1
Caucasus
33.01

2
Atlantic_Med
27.89

3
North_European
14.71

4
Southwest_Asian
11.68

5
Gedrosia
7.67

6
Northwest_African
3.76




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 S_Italian_Sicilian @ 5.577903
2 Sicilian @ 5.862129
3 Ashkenazy_Jews @ 7.644274
4 Ashkenazi @ 7.809694
5 Greek @ 8.685108
6 C_Italian @ 9.619845
7 Sephardic_Jews @ 11.009405
8 O_Italian @ 12.260293
9 Morocco_Jews @ 13.274865
10 Tuscan @ 13.881737
11 TSI30 @ 15.075401
12 Cypriots @ 20.576782
13 Turkish @ 20.887295
14 N_Italian @ 21.456177
15 Bulgarian @ 22.095325
16 Bulgarians @ 22.611324
17 North_Italian @ 22.926046
18 Turks @ 23.427137
19 Lebanese @ 23.575047
20 Romanians @ 23.723751
*

----------


## Joey D

^ identical top 10, slightly different order, my Jewishness appears to stand out a bit more 

I had to look up what Abhkasians was.

----------


## Joey D

> Here are (for the first time I think) the Dodecad 12b results for of a friend from Malta (all known ancestors from Malta). Not surprisingly, his results are quite similar to Sicilians but with a higher African component (North/West/East=8.0% vs 5.0%) quite similar to Portuguese (8.5%). 
> 
> Component
> Maltese
> Sicilian_D
> 
> Caucasus
> 34.8
> 36.5



I know it's not much of a difference, maybe too small to worry about, but does anyone have a theory as to why the Sicilian Caucasus component is higher?

----------


## Hauteville

> [/TD]
> [TD="align: right"][/TD]
> [TD="align: right"][/TD]
> [/TR]
> [/TABLE]
> 
> I know it's not much of a difference, maybe too small to worry about, but does anyone have a theory as to why the Sicilian Caucasus component is higher?


Because Maltese have higher African admixture and less Atlanto Med+North Euro maybe?

PS: I have an idea, maybe less Caucasus means less ancient Greek settlements, while less North Euro and Atlanto Med less mainland Italian settlements, more African and SW Asian admix means a Phoenician contribution that in Sicily is limitated only to Palermo and Lilibeo?

----------


## Angela

Are my eyes deceiving me? Is this a thread on Sicilians? I thought it was a thread on the Maltese. 

I'm not going to tell you again, Sikeliot. No spamming of Sicilian results. If you continue to try to derail threads into your obsession with and agenda against Sicilians and other Southern Italians you'll get an infraction. I don't allow any group to be harassed here, including the Albanians if I may say so, although they seem to have forgotten that. 

Be grateful that members here aren't treated as I've heard you treat the members on your site, particularly the Greek ones lately, I understand, who are banned solely for not agreeing with you. 

Oh, and if you're going to continually and perpetually appropriate my ideas, quote them accurately. The people of the area in and around Messina are descendants of people who were brought in to repopulate a city devastated by earthquake, so their results will not be at all informative as to whether or not the people of the northeast might have been, after the time of the Muslim invasions, the most "native" Sicilians.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> Be grateful that members here aren't treated as I've heard you treat the members on your site, particularly the Greek ones lately, I understand, who are banned solely for not agreeing with you.


I'm not going to address most of your post but the above, is not true. Not one Greek member has been banned for anything to do with their ideas. One person was banned for harassing users, but it was nothing to do with me and if I remember correctly, I did not perform the ban myself.

For the rest of your post, ok. I will keep to posting those on other sites where people are more interested in them.

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## Blanco

> I'm not going to address most of your post but the above, is not true. Not one Greek member has been banned for anything to do with their ideas. One person was banned for harassing users, but it was nothing to do with me and if I remember correctly, I did not perform the ban myself.
> 
> For the rest of your post, ok. I will keep to posting those on other sites where people are more interested in them.


I have to agree with user "Angela"
You banned Casandrinos and many others who disagreed with your non appropriate ideas on what Greeks are. In fact most Italians and Greeks left the TA because of your constant Tr*lling and obsessive circle threads. You should apologize from all members who spent so much time there in order to defeat false claims which has been made in a dark room with no hope and feelings.
Now as we know the genetic of Peloponnese and we see that they differ no dramatically from Italians including Sicilians the 75000+ posts which has been made on this subject should fade away.

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## Hauteville

Many people of modern Messina descendent from people from all over Sicily and Calabria, the mayor Accorinti has a Calabrese surname. And some north eastern Italians also settled there after Caporetto.

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## Maleth

> [/TD]
> [TD="align: right"][/TD]
> [TD="align: right"][/TD]
> [/TR]
> [/TABLE]
> 
> I know it's not much of a difference, maybe too small to worry about, but does anyone have a theory as to why the Sicilian Caucasus component is higher?


This is just a one (person) on one comparison. In fact other result posted by seanp says 40.78% Caucasus while mine is only 26.66. One needs to take results from a large group to cover whole populations to get an average, since results defer from one person to the other. Also percentages would vary from different regions within Sicily itself.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> I have to agree with user "Angela"
> You banned Casandrinos and many others who disagreed with your non appropriate ideas on what Greeks are. In fact most Italians and Greeks left the TA because of your constant Tr*lling and obsessive circle threads. You should apologize from all members who spent so much time there in order to defeat false claims which has been made in a dark room with no hope and feelings.
> Now as we know the genetic of Peloponnese and we see that they differ no dramatically from Italians including Sicilians the 75000+ posts which has been made on this subject should fade away.


As for the genetics, yes, you're right about Peloponnesians and I was wrong in the past but I WILL defend myself from false claims being made about my mod behavior on TA:

Casandrinos was not banned for that reason, he was banned for spam posting, harassing users with homophobic comments and other personal attacks, and the decision was supported by the other Greek moderator, and by the forum administrator. It was not as if I made the decision for personal reasons, it was an accumulation of issues and there was not one mod/admin who disagreed. And no, most Greek users did not leave, they still post there.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> This is just a one (person) on one comparison. In fact other result posted by seanp says 40.78% Caucasus while mine is only 26.66. One needs to take results from a large group to cover whole populations to get an average, since results defer from one person to the other. Also percentages would vary from different regions within Sicily itself.


Are you fully Maltese?

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## Maleth

> Are you fully Maltese?


That is something very hard to define (The fully thing). When one take in consideration all the events that happened after the repopulation of the Maltese Islands in the year thousand something from Sicily to the continuous admixture of people that made the Maltese Islands their home for one reason or another through different powers and major events. The only stable common factor seemed to be that who ever was going to be 'Maltese' had to be Christian (more precisely Catholic). My great grand father was English and converted to Catholism. There were many similar situations. Even slaves that were given freedom (during the era of the knights of St. John) had to convert to Christianity. So genetically how can one define a fully Maltese? ;)

----------


## Blanco

> As for the genetics, yes, you're right about Peloponnesians and I was wrong in the past but I WILL defend myself from false claims being made about my mod behavior on TA:
> 
> Casandrinos was not banned for that reason, he was banned for spam posting, harassing users with homophobic comments and other personal attacks, and the decision was supported by the other Greek moderator, and by the forum administrator. It was not as if I made the decision for personal reasons, it was an accumulation of issues and there was not one mod/admin who disagreed. And no, most Greek users did not leave, they still post there.


you've been spamming the same threads for years, yet no one banned you, wonder why? I can prove and many ex TA members that you've been over abusing your "privileges" and it's also true you've been made sock accounts and you banned Casandrinos because he stated the obvious "Lyllo and many others with the same aspie behavior are the same socks made by you"
For some reason you have a negative feeling towards people of Italian descent and i don't know if it's true but someone said that you dislike your West Asian features and blame Italians for the way you look like. So this hate and anger manifested into an online persona.

----------


## Pratt

> That is something very hard to define (The fully thing). When one take in consideration all the events that happened after the repopulation of the Maltese Islands in the year thousand something from Sicily to the continuous admixture of people that made the Maltese Islands their home for one reason or another through different powers and major events. The only stable common factor seemed to be that who ever was going to be 'Maltese' had to be Christian (more precisely Catholic). My great grand father was English and converted to Catholism. There were many similar situations. Even slaves that were given freedom (during the era of the knights of St. John) had to convert to Christianity. So genetically how can one define a fully Maltese? ;)


That's a really good answer. An ethnicity is something very hard to define, especially when it comes to places full of history like in southern Europe. It's easier for some northern European ethnicity, because they are all smaller and for a long time more isolated than the rest of the Europeans.

----------


## Ponto

I think it a so so answer. So, Malta has experienced multi-culturalism and immigration like other places in Europe. Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years. Maleth is admixed because of his English foreign ancestor, so he gives a general answer. Maltese people are interrelated distantly. The relationship calculations of 23andMe, Ancestry and FTDNA all exaggerate the relationship of Maltese people. A 3rd -5th cousin is really a 9th, 9th once removed and 10th cousins. Genealogy for Maltese people is hopeless with everyone having the same surnames generation after generation. You need a family tree that goes to the 16th century in order to find a connection.

I just want to state some things about Maltese people. Maltese people came to Malta in the 11th century from Agrigento, Sicily during the last days of Muslim control in Sicily. These Sicilians were basically Muslim and Mozarabs, though some full-on Berbers were present as Muslim clerics and soldiers. Slavery existed in Malta until the coming of the French in the 18th century, most of these slaves were from Northwest Africa though there were Ethiopian slaves also. A famous Ethiopian slave was Antonia Sancti who gave the surname to the Sant family. The Maltese family Said derives from the descendants of Sultan Cem who failed in his attempt to takeover Ottoman Turkey. Surnames in Malta do not indicate the ethnicity of the holder, for example, Zammit belongs to R1b, Sultana belongs to I-M223 and Bugeja belongs to R-PF6570. Most surnames seem to have low NPE based on their haplogroups.

I do not understand why Dodecad is still used as it is so old and outdated. Dienekes had a lot of agendas when he invented DIYDodecadWin calculator and his Dodecad GEDmatch calculators. If you want to see how Maltese people play out you need a lot of samples, they may be all interrelated but there is a lot of variation the ancestry breakdown. Some may have North African in double figures and others none at all. It is the luck of the draw. According to Ancestry I am quintessentially Sicilian which pissed me off as I am as Maltese as they come genetically. My ancestors have had nothing to do with Sicily for hundreds of years, there are no Sicilians in my family tree. Maltese people share most with Italians, Greeks and other Balkanians. Jews, despite what Oracles say, do not have much IBD with Maltese people. So all those Jews listed on Oracle are rubbish. Some of you have complained about MyOrigins mark 2, well, I have zero Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jewish ancestry.

----------


## Hauteville

Ponto, as you have said. Maltese derivered from old muslim population of Sicily that's why they are autosomally Sicilian with a major North African admixture (see Lazaridis paper for example). I also think that most of muslim population of Sicily were native converted with a small number of Berber and islamic Andalusians (not modern people of Andalusia of course) but they were expelled. Therefore Sicily was largely settled by mainland Italians, especially from south but not only. Your family has not to do with Sicily in recent time?ok but your ancestors came surely mostly from old Sicilian population in medieval times.

----------


## Lukas

Some other Maltese results from my dataset

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
34.27

2
Atlantic_Med
26.86

3
Southwest_Asian
12.1

4
North_European
11.16

5
Northwest_African
6.49

6
Gedrosia
5.95

7
Sub_Saharan
1.67

8
Southeast_Asian
0.76

9
East_African
0.48

10
East_Asian
0.21

11
Siberian
0.04

12
South_Asian
0.01



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Sicilian (Dodecad)
4.89

2
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
5.6

3
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
6.36

4
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
6.64

5
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
7.29

6
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
8.48

7
C_Italian (Dodecad)
10.96

8
Greek (Dodecad)
11.03

9
O_Italian (Dodecad)
14.26

10
Tuscan (HGDP)
15.1

11
TSI30 (Metspalu)
16.08

12
Cypriots (Behar)
17.33

13
Turkish (Dodecad)
19.76

14
Lebanese (Behar)
20.66

15
N_Italian (Dodecad)
21.98

16
Turks (Behar)
22.1

17
North_Italian (HGDP)
22.98

18
Syrians (Behar)
23.6

19
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
23.73

20
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
24.08



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

90.6%
 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
9.4%
 Moroccans (Behar)
 @ 
2.86

2

95.2%
 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
4.8%
 Mozabite (HGDP)
 @ 
2.89

3

88.3%
 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
11.7%
 Algerian (Dodecad)
 @ 
2.91

4

90.7%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
9.3%
 Algerian (Dodecad)
 @ 
3.17

5

92.7%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
7.3%
 Moroccans (Behar)
 @ 
3.21

6

57.4%
 Morocco_Jews (Behar)
 + 
42.6%
 Greek (Dodecad)
 @ 
3.22

7

75.3%
 Morocco_Jews (Behar)
 + 
24.7%
 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
 @ 
3.23

8

90.7%
 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
9.3%
 Moroccan (Dodecad)
 @ 
3.23

9

75%
 Morocco_Jews (Behar)
 + 
25%
 Bulgarian (Dodecad)
 @ 
3.26

10

86.6%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
13.4%
 German (Dodecad)
 @ 
3.27





*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
29.77

2
Atlantic_Med
29.45

3
North_European
13.34

4
Southwest_Asian
12.45

5
Gedrosia
7.16

6
Northwest_African
5.05

7
Sub_Saharan
1.3

8
East_African
1.16

9
Siberian
0.33



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Sicilian (Dodecad)
6.86

2
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
6.97

3
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.33

4
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
9.81

5
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
10.27

6
O_Italian (Dodecad)
10.54

7
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
11.14

8
Greek (Dodecad)
11.2

9
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
11.21

10
Tuscan (HGDP)
11.91

11
TSI30 (Metspalu)
12.41

12
N_Italian (Dodecad)
17.61

13
North_Italian (HGDP)
18.74

14
Cypriots (Behar)
21.76

15
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
21.98

16
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
22.39

17
Romanians (Behar)
23.12

18
Turkish (Dodecad)
23.25

19
Lebanese (Behar)
24.01

20
Turks (Behar)
25.46



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

79.6%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
20.4%
 Argyll (1000Genomes)
 @ 
2

2

79.8%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
20.2%
 Irish (Dodecad)
 @ 
2.01

3

79.9%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
20.1%
 Orcadian (HGDP)
 @ 
2.02

4

79.2%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
20.8%
 British (Dodecad)
 @ 
2.05

5

79%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
21%
 Cornwall (1000Genomes)
 @ 
2.05

6

80%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
20%
 Orkney (1000Genomes)
 @ 
2.07

7

78.6%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
21.4%
 Kent (1000Genomes)
 @ 
2.16

8

78.9%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
21.1%
 English (Dodecad)
 @ 
2.17

9

78.9%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
21.1%
 CEU30 (1000Genomes)
 @ 
2.18

10

51.6%
 O_Italian (Dodecad)
 + 
48.4%
 Morocco_Jews (Behar)
 @ 
2.24





*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasus
40.78

2
Atlantic_Med
27.22

3
Southwest_Asian
11.39

4
North_European
7.82

5
Northwest_African
5.78

6
Gedrosia
4

7
East_African
2.41

8
Southeast_Asian
0.5

9
Siberian
0.09

10
Sub_Saharan
0.02



*Single Population Sharing:*

*#*
*Population (source)*
*Distance*

1
Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
5.98

2
Sicilian (Dodecad)
6.46

3
Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
6.55

4
Ashkenazi (Dodecad)
6.77

5
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
7.07

6
Morocco_Jews (Behar)
9.56

7
Cypriots (Behar)
12.77

8
Greek (Dodecad)
13.05

9
C_Italian (Dodecad)
14.36

10
Turkish (Dodecad)
18.17

11
Tuscan (HGDP)
18.26

12
O_Italian (Dodecad)
18.93

13
TSI30 (Metspalu)
19.67

14
Lebanese (Behar)
19.85

15
Turks (Behar)
20.88

16
Druze (HGDP)
21.03

17
Syrians (Behar)
23.47

18
Jordanians (Behar)
23.78

19
Armenian (Dodecad)
25.02

20
Palestinian (HGDP)
25.11



*Mixed Mode Population Sharing:*

*#*

*Primary Population (source)*
*Secondary Population (source)*
*Distance*

1

73.7%
 Cypriots (Behar)
 + 
26.3%
 Canarias (1000Genomes)
 @ 
3.82

2

71%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
29%
 Cypriots (Behar)
 @ 
4.17

3

81.7%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
18.3%
 Druze (HGDP)
 @ 
4.52

4

85.2%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
14.8%
 Armenians (Behar)
 @ 
4.55

5

84.6%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
15.4%
 Armenian (Dodecad)
 @ 
4.66

6

55.4%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
44.6%
 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)
 @ 
4.74

7

85.6%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
14.4%
 Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev)
 @ 
4.78

8

54.7%
 Sephardic_Jews (Behar)
 + 
45.3%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 @ 
4.79

9

90.7%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
9.3%
 Georgians (Behar)
 @ 
4.8

10

85.8%
 Sicilian (Dodecad)
 + 
14.2%
 Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar)
 @

----------


## Maleth

> I think it a so so answer. So, Malta has experienced multi-culturalism and immigration like other places in Europe.* Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years.* Maleth is admixed because of his English foreign ancestor, so he gives a general answer. Maltese people are interrelated distantly. The relationship calculations of 23andMe, Ancestry and FTDNA all exaggerate the relationship of Maltese people. A 3rd -5th cousin is really a 9th, 9th once removed and 10th cousins. Genealogy for Maltese people is hopeless with everyone having the same surnames generation after generation. You need a family tree that goes to the 16th century in order to find a connection.


well well 16th century would be considered very recent on any standard. The top 20 surnames in Malta constitute some 25% of present population and guess what? more then half have a paper trail with 'Foreign' origins as mainly from Sicily (some Spanish and Italian). How pure Maltese is that? More and more surnames entered later with a direct Sicilian / Southern Italian link, Some 3% have British origins and a percentage of French too ( ex. De Puget, Du pui, Pule, Bernard, Fornier). How pure Maltese is that? Please define a pure Maltese dna wise and not considered an admixture? :Rolleyes:  Do not forget the whole male population of Celano (In Italy) in 1223 was exiled to Malta (in the South) and 400 Rhodian refugies arrived with the knights of St John after being ousted from Rhodes by the Ottomans. (Don't forget we are talking in a time when the local population was very very small. So what do you mean exactly by saying Maltese people are people whose ancestry is from Malta for hundreds of years?!

----------


## Hauteville

The same southern italians and sicilians have also spanish or french link (or northern italian or albanian and greek link). So there are no pure peoples all over the world.

----------


## Hauteville

> Some other Maltese results from my dataset
> 
> *#*
> *Population*
> *Percent*
> 
> 1
> Caucasus
> 34.27
> ...


Typical trend of Maltese's results. They are Sicilian/Southern Italian with some more North African or Near Eastern link. I guess because according to Ponto the original core of population if the island was resettled by muslims from western Sicily (eastern Sicily was not islamized) who were mostly native Sicilians (Greek-Roman with local Italic peoples) with some intermarriages with Berbers, while the deportation of Sicilian muslims and the subsequently repopulation of large part of Sicily with mainland Italians have reduced North African admix in Sicily (which is indeed insignificant). We should consider that the people of Celano also settled in Calabria and Sicily over than Malta. I always thought that this extra North African had to do with the pre-Roman past (Sicily and South Italy mostly Greek, Malta mostly Punic) but if the islands were depopulated by muslims is a nonsense.

----------


## Maleth

> Typical trend of Maltese's results. They are Sicilian/Southern Italian with some more North African or Near Eastern link. I guess because according to Ponto the original core of population if the island was resettled by muslims from western Sicily (eastern Sicily was not islamized) who were mostly native Sicilians (Greek-Roman with local Italic peoples) with some intermarriages with Berbers, while the deportation of Sicilian muslims and the subsequently repopulation of large part of Sicily with mainland Italians have reduced North African admix in Sicily (which is indeed insignificant). We should consider that the people of Celano also settled in Calabria and Sicily over than Malta. I always thought that this extra North African had to do with the pre-Roman past (Sicily and South Italy mostly Greek, Malta mostly Punic) but if the islands were depopulated by muslims is a nonsense.


*) Although ancient historians are not always reliable the accounts by Al-Himyarī's not only recount that the then Byzantine (at least culturally) population was eradicated, but Fishermen from Sicily used to visit the uninhabited Island and also to harvest wood. So part of todays Maltese population has to be attributed to the resettlement that took place later. (Since other major events happened later)

*) Do we have any regional dna sampling from different regions in Sicily. It is very probable in my opinion that Malta would compare well say the South West regions to include as you put it the more North Africa Middle eastern link. Most Sicilian studies are grouped as an Island as a whole. Sicily is a huge Island and I am pretty sure there are variations for the three corners (so to speak) 

*) It very much seems that the events of Expulsions, Christianization and Latinization that happened after 1224 (with the expulsions of Muslims to Lucera) and Celano events were very much in line in the Maltese Islands as a policy dictated by Palermo to which they were part of.

----------


## Hauteville

Most studies about Sicily (or Italy) divided the island between west and east. Sazzini uses samples from Agrigento for west and Catania for the east but they plot almost identical with Agrigento a bit more continental in some individuals, while the study of Fiorito uses Ragusa and Trapani, Eurogenes have Siracusa for east and Trapani for west. Trapani seems to be more "continental". Maybe zones like Mazara could approach Malta but Agrigento looks like regular Sicilian sample. But we talk about 2/3% more of MENA for Malta, nothing of exaggerate.
The muslim expulsion is a long and complex history, after king Ruggero II death, there were three anti-muslim pogroms, and Federico II eradicated muslim presence in Sicily in a civil war between 1219 and 1246. I dunno for Malta if it was the same, I haven't historic books about it, but I know many celanesi settled also in Sicily and Calabria over than Malta, but many of them returned to Abruzzo.

http://www.museodellamarsica.benicul...rigini-al-1227

"I celanesi furono esiliati in Sicilia, Calabria e Malta e l resteranno fino al 1227."

----------


## oreo_cookie

On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.

On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.

----------


## Angela

> On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. *The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.*
> 
> On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.


What is your source for that comment?

----------


## Maleth

> The muslim expulsion is a long and complex history, after king Ruggero II death, there were three anti-muslim pogroms, and Federico II eradicated muslim presence in Sicily in a civil war between 1219 and 1246. I dunno for Malta if it was the same, I haven't historic books about it, but I know many celanesi settled also in Sicily and Calabria over than Malta, but many of them returned to Abruzzo.
> 
> http://www.museodellamarsica.benicul...rigini-al-1227
> 
> "I celanesi furono esiliati in Sicilia, Calabria e Malta e l� resteranno fino al 1227."


The Maltese Islands were part of Sicily for 440 years. So all the policies and events were those of Sicily as a whole. Until recently The Maltese Islands were more or less considered as a military strategic out post, mainly because of its excellent harbors. Because of the instability of the time It was in the interest of Federico II to strengthen Malta's defenses by sending Norman and Sicilian and to make sure the policies took place as other wise they can serve as an excellent stepping stone for attacks or invations.

Prof. Wettinger who is a well respected local Medieval historian goes on to say that _"there is no doubt that by the beginning of Angevin times [i.e. shortly after 1249] no professed Muslim Maltese remained either as free persons or even as serfs on the island."

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta

----------


## Hauteville

Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.

----------


## Hauteville

> On MDLP K23, most Maltese I have seen score "Sicily_Agrigento" or "Sicily_West" in their top 5, which makes sense as the vast majority of their ancestry, and their surnames come from there. The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to.
> 
> On GEDmatch's "One to Many," nearly every person from Agrigento or Caltanissetta I have put in there has close relatives (this high IBD sharing) in Malta. Even the people from inland Caltanissetta, so Maltese might have ancestry from deep inland and not just the coasts. I know a Maltese guy who has one of the surnames mentioned above and he can trace back to Agrigento in the 1700s. Remember also that Sicilians came to Malta with these surnames, so if you can figure out when the surnames originated, it had to be after that, that they traveled to Malta.


Very few Maltese have tested themselves on Oracle, Ponto is one and he has posted his GEDmatch id (here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...781#post505781). This is his personal MDLP K23 (I can remove the post if he don't want to see his personal results):

He does not get Agrigento or Sicily West but Sicily East as first Sicilian population.

*#*
*Population*
*Percent*

1
Caucasian
37.72

2
European_Early_Farmers
20.54

3
Near_East
12.14

4
European_Hunters_Gatherers
9.12

5
North_African
8.92

6
South_Central_Asian
7.72

7
Subsaharian
1.23

8
Austronesian
0.82

9
Australoid
0.63

10
Archaic_Human
0.37

11
East_Siberian
0.34

12
Archaic_African
0.23

13
East_African
0.19

14
Paleo_Siberian
0.05



*Single Population Sharing:

#
Population (source)
Distance

1
Sephardic_Jew ( )
4.28

2
Turk_Jew ( )
4.58

3
French_Jew ( )
4.59

4
Italian_Jew ( )
4.9

5
Ashkenazi_Jew ( )
5.17

6
Sicilian_East ( )
5.2

7
Ashkenazi ( )
6.71

8
Sicilian_Agrigento ( )
6.76

9
Sicilian_Siracusa ( )
6.9

10
Cretan ( )
7.11

11
Moroccan_Jew ( )
7.54

12
Sicilian_West ( )
7.61

13
Romanian_Jew ( )
7.79

14
Syrian_Jew ( )
7.9

15
Maltese ( )
7.91

16
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
8.35

17
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
8.64

18
Greek_Thessaloniki ( )
8.98

19
Tunisian_Jew ( )
9.08

20
Greek_Thessaly ( )
9.59



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance

1

87.6%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
12.4%
Saharawi ( )
@
1.52

2

83.7%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
16.3%
Algerian ( )
@
1.59

3

82.7%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
17.3%
Shaigi_Sudan ( )
@
1.6

4

86.9%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
13.1%
Berber_WGA ( )
@
1.64

5

85.9%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
14.1%
Morocco_South ( )
@
1.72

6

82.3%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
17.7%
Tunisian ( )
@
1.8

7

90.7%
Cretan ( )
+
9.3%
Morocco_South ( )
@
1.9

8

89.2%
Cretan ( )
+
10.8%
Algerian ( )
@
1.93

9

88.5%
Cretan ( )
+
11.5%
Shaigi_Sudan ( )
@
1.98

10

84.1%
Greek_Smyrna ( )
+
15.9%
Moroccan ( )
@
2.14

11

74.4%
Maltese ( )
+
25.6%
Iraqi_Jew ( )
@
2.15

12

91.5%
Cretan ( )
+
8.5%
Berber_WGA ( )
@
2.18

13

76.8%
Maltese ( )
+
23.2%
Jew_Tat ( )
@
2.18

14

75.5%
Maltese ( )
+
24.5%
Iranian_Jew ( )
@
2.19

15

72.8%
Maltese ( )
+
27.2%
Georgian_Jew ( )
@
2.26

16

92.1%
Cretan ( )
+
7.9%
Saharawi ( )
@
2.28

17

71.6%
Maltese ( )
+
28.4%
Assyrian_Iraqi ( )
@
2.32

18

54.3%
Sicilian_Agrigento ( )
+
45.7%
Syrian_Jew ( )
@
2.36

19

80.2%
French_Jew ( )
+
19.8%
Turk_Adana ( )
@
2.36

20

67.9%
Moroccan_Jew ( )
+
32.1%
Azov_Greek ( )
@
2.38


*

----------


## Hauteville

> The Maltese Islands were part of Sicily for 440 years. So all the policies and events were those of Sicily as a whole. Until recently The Maltese Islands were more or less considered as a military strategic out post, mainly because of its excellent harbors. Because of the instability of the time It was in the interest of Federico II to strengthen Malta's defenses by sending Norman and Sicilian defenses and make sure the policies took place. 
> 
> Prof. Wettinger who is a well respected local Medieval historian goes on to say that _"there is no doubt that by the beginning of Angevin times [i.e. shortly after 1249] no professed Muslim Maltese remained either as free persons or even as serfs on the island."
> 
> _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta


Carlo II d'Angi removed the last muslim presence of Lucera. By the way, do you know if there were in Malta other mainland Italian migrations other than Celanesi?

----------


## Maleth

> Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.


This is also very interesting. We know example the origins of Said and Sultana are of different origins probably more linked to Turkish exiles. We have surnames that start with Bu, like Busutil, Buhagiar, Butiegig, Bugeja Mamo Bugibba (now extint) apart from Mintoff, Xuereb,Sciberras and so on who probably trace back to Muslim Malta. Prior to dna one was assuming that these surnames would be the older Maltese population derived from genetically North African or Middleastern stock. However in most instances DNA is proving a trend otherwise with the few being tested so far (of these surnames) being G and J2 with a southern European link. This indicates the fact that indigenous inhabitants have actually converted to Islam and not a result of direct migration from North Africa and Middle east, with the surnames being created during Aglabaid and fatmid rule.

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## Maleth

> Carlo II d'Angi� removed the last muslim presence of Lucera. By the way, do you know if there were in Malta other mainland Italian migrations other than Celanesi?


I dont know of any other migrations during the Latinisation and Christinazation programmes of the 13th Century, but with the arrival of the Knights and again the growing economy round the harbor there is a good number of church records of marriages between locals and Sicilians and southern Italians (I think a number from Naples) and some French and Spanish too. I would consider this period as the later migration period after the 13th century events. This would give the later wave of surnames that are still present today.

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## Hauteville

> This is also very interesting. We know example the origins of Said and Sultana are of different origins probably more linked to Turkish exiles. We have surnames that start with Bu, like Busutil, Buhagiar, Butiegig, Bugeja Mamo Bugibba (now extint) apart from Mintoff, Xuereb,Sciberras and so on who probably trace back to Muslim Malta. Prior to dna one was assuming that these surnames would be the older Maltese population derived from genetically North African or Middleastern stock. However in most instances DNA is proving a trend otherwise with the few being tested so far (of these surnames) being G and J2 with a southern European link. This indicates the fact that indigenous inhabitants have actually converted to Islam and not a result of direct migration from North Africa and Middle east, with the surnames being created during Aglabaid and fatmid rule.


Yes, most of muslims were indeed indigenous converted not transplanted north africans. The same Lucera has very few E-M81.

----------


## Angela

> Oracle should be interpretated with combined population, not just with only one population. Maltese people have not just only surnames from Agrigento but from all over the island, and it was part of the Contea di Modica for lot of time. And part of Maltese surnames are not present in Sicily but localized, like Fenech, Said or Mercieca.


This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:

"The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."

It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

Spiteri is also present in various areas, although mostly in Licata.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ

Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.

----------


## Hauteville

> This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:
> 
> "The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."
> 
> It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.
> 
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> ...


Attard derives from Attardo. But this guy doesn't understand that Sicilians moved and intermarried with people from all over the island during the centuries...so surnames are present everywhere now.

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.WRXSXlTyjIU

----------


## Maleth

> It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.
> 
> The only one that is specific to Agrigento is Attard, which is exceedingly rare. Who knows where it or any of these names were present 800 years ago?
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...5#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> 
> Modern distributions are not the best way to go if you have records available which tell you the origin.


Example for the surname Attard there is this description. 

_“In questa famiglia ritroviamo essere stato in feudo il territorio chaimato la Saccaya, di cui ne fu’ investito Francesco Attardo dal Re’ Federico, come si legge in un registro della Regia Cancellaria degl’ anni 1360, fino al 1366, a. fogl. 432, il qual feudo gli fu’ conceduto per se, e suoi legittimi eredi da lui discendenti, sotto servigio militare d’un Balestriere. Nell’ Alicata Citta della Sicilia risiede un ramo principale cola’ trasferito da Malta con la perosna di Gio Maria Attardo, I successori del quale ivi hoggi con molta honorevolezza nobilmente vivono. In Malta fiorisce al presente nella medesima famiglia il P. Maestro Pietro Attardo Domenicano Consultore del S. Officio molti stimato & accreditato nel suo Ordine si’ per I carichi, e religiosa osservanza, come per la dottrina speculative, lungamente dimostrata nelle publiche Cattedre. ”_ (From Abela’s “*Della Descrittione di Malta del Commendatore Abela*” (1647)) 

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_O16hNFXY25MC

here it is described as such by prof Wettinger... _and Actardo was a Germanic personal name which has become one of the main surnames of the two islands right down to the present day and had certainly already been closely associated with casali Actard_ 



https://vassallohistory.wordpress.co...tese-surnames/

Attard(o) is the 8th most popular name on the Islands. Camilleri, Farrugia and Vella are the 2nd and 3rd and 4th most popular names. Spiteri is the 9th.

----------


## oreo_cookie

> This is why I asked for Oreo Cookie/Sikelliot's sources for the following comment:
> 
> "The most common surnames in Malta (Farruggia, Camilleri, Vella, Spiteri, Attard) are typically found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta or have variants there, and sometimes even Palermo, so it is these regions that Maltese people will be closest to."
> 
> It is inaccurate and misleading. The following surnames are present all over the island: Camilleri, Farruggia, and Vella.
> 
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...6#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.WRWuvYwrKyJ
> ...



http://italia.indettaglio.it/eng/cog...i_sicilia.html

They all predominate in those provinces. This gives numbers.

Attardo is highest in Palma de Montechiaro.
Vella in Gela but also in many towns in Agrigento, Palermo, Caltanissetta.
Farruggia in Agrigento, Gela, Aragona in that order, then other western Sicilian towns.
Spiteri in Licata and Favara.
Portelli, another common one, from all along the south coast, Scicli in Ragusa to Gela, but also in Messina.
Camilleri is mostly Palermitan but also found in Agrigento and Caltanissetta.

So yes they can be found all throughout the island but they are by and large concentrated very heavily in Agrigento, Caltanissetta, and Palermo. You can type them in there and see the numbers, I tried to link you but it doesn't save the page when you search on it.

----------


## Hauteville

Gela is South Eastern Sicily city not Western. Licata is Southern Central. Camilleri is a Southern Sicilian surname, not Palermitan because inhabitans of Palermo have ancestors from all over the island (and Italy).

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...ILLERI/SICILIA

The second province were Attardo peaks is Siracusa.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...TTARDO/SICILIA

Vella is common all over the island except Enna and Messina provinces.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog.../VELLA/SICILIA

I add other common surnames in Malta like Bonnici, who is almost exclusively of Siracusa and Catania

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...ONNICI/SICILIA

And Abela

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog.../ABELA/SICILIA

As you can see, the latin surnames of Malta are from all over Sicily, not just Agrigento and Caltanissetta provinces.

----------


## oreo_cookie

It just seems obvious to me that given that the "Maltese" surnames are concentrated along the southern coast, the most likely point of departure from Sicily to Malta was there even if they are found elsewhere. 

Another two peaking in Gela are Azzopardi ("Zuppardo") and Scicluna ("Scicolone", derived from the town Scicli in Ragusa province).

----------


## Pratt

> Here are (for the first time I think) the Dodecad 12b results for of a friend from Malta (all known ancestors from Malta). Not surprisingly, his results are quite similar to Sicilians but with a higher African component (North/West/East=8.0% vs 5.0%) quite similar to Portuguese (8.5%). 
> 
> Component
> Maltese
> Sicilian_D
> 
> Caucasus
> 34.8
> 36.5
> ...

----------


## Angela

Maleth knows a great deal about Maltese history. Perhaps he'll chime in, and correct me if necessary, but the Knights engaged in the slave trade. Some of it may have come from Africa. That might explain the differences, although they are small.

----------


## zanipolo

> 


Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 35.43
2 North_European 31.73
3 Caucasus 18.92
4 Gedrosia 7.19
5 Southwest_Asian 5.01
6 Northwest_African 1.64


Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 10.754071
2 North_Italian_HGDP @ 13.897596
3 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 14.276514
4 French_HGDP @ 14.957365
5 French_Dodecad @ 15.008798
6 Romanians_Behar @ 15.771966
7 TSI30_Metspalu @ 16.440754
8 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 17.053511
9 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 17.141352
10 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 17.607548
11 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 17.678137
12 Tuscan_HGDP @ 17.976521
13 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 18.569544
14 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 18.880589
15 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 18.963093
16 Hungarians_Behar @ 19.319050
17 German_Dodecad @ 19.339350
18 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 20.204691
19 Cataluna_1000Genomes @ 20.442408
20 Dutch_Dodecad @ 20.850052

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% British_Dodecad +50% Greek_Dodecad @ 1.446007


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Dodecad +25% O_Italian_Dodecad +25% Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.828508


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 German_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.393276
2 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Cornwall_1000Genomes + French_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.500826
3 British_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.610817
4 Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_HGDP + Irish_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.640883
5 Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.665206
6 British_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_HGDP + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.677554
7 German_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Sicilian_Dodecad + TSI30_Metspalu @ 0.683037
8 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Cornwall_1000Genomes + French_HGDP + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.691684
9 C_Italian_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Norwegian_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.719428
10 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + British_Isles_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 0.722368
11 Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_HGDP + Orcadian_HGDP + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.760813
12 Cornwall_1000Genomes + French_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.765977
13 Argyll_1000Genomes + Hungarians_Behar + North_Italian_HGDP + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.773724
14 Ashkenazi_Dodecad + British_Isles_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 0.781435
15 German_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.794302
16 German_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Sicilian_Dodecad + Tuscan_HGDP @ 0.804098
17 British_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.808714
18 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + French_HGDP + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.818413
19 Argyll_1000Genomes + German_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad + TSI30_Metspalu @ 0.826889
20 Dutch_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Sicilian_Dodecad @ 0.828508

Done.

----------


## Maleth

> Maleth knows a great deal about Maltese history. Perhaps he'll chime in, and correct me if necessary, but the Knights engaged in the slave trade. Some of it may have come from Africa. That might explain the differences, although they are small.


Sorry just spotted this now. Thanks for the comment. Indeed you are right Angela. The Knights engaged in a considerable slave trade activity mainly due to their very well know maritime (Corso) activities. We know that when General Napoleon Bonaparte took over from the Knights, he had abolished slavery and freed some 2000 North African Slaves (presumingly mostly Tunisians). It is well presumed that most of these Slaves had remained on the Island converted to Christianity and also married local women. Some would have also returned to their native lands. This could well explain any possible North African component genetically. 

https://www.timesofmalta.com/article...in-malta.20844

----------


## Rodolfo Durante

Gedrosia
5.89 Pct

Siberian
1.29 Pct

Northwest_African
5.99 Pct

Southeast_Asian
-

Atlantic_Med
25.73 Pct

North_European
10.91 Pct

South_Asian
-

East_African
1.59 Pct

Southwest_Asian
13.16 Pct

East_Asian
-

Caucasus
35.33 Pct

Sub_Saharan
0.1 Pct


Dodecad 12b results

----------


## Ozzie

Those results are similar to mine, which is expected as I am Maltese born of Maltese born people going back as far as I can find. Those results can be distorted by marriage practices and chance. One man or woman could have given me all my North European, and that has come to me through genealogy collapse, i.e cousin marriages. I have done a lot of dna testing and I am related distantly to every Maltese person, also most half Maltese people, and a lot of quarter Maltese people. There has been little non paternal events, as surnames and their Y haplogroups are identical. I can tell from your haplogroup E-V13 your surname is not Schembri, Agius, Muscat, Vella, Micallef, Farrugia, Abela, Zammit....Portelli is R1a for example.

----------


## Rodolfo Durante

Dear Ozzie

Most Maltese people if not all are somewhat related. We are all mostly descended from 25000 people who inhabited Malta in 1530 when the Knights of Malta took possession of the islands.
My interest is in history especially social and most specifically the Middle Ages, a period we know very little of. Exploring the DNA of the Maltese population will help unravel some of the questions we are still posing in respect of this period.
I have very little knowledge of how DNA works so I hope you do not mind if I pick your brain with a couple of questions. 

First of all you are right that my true surname is not included in the ones you mention, although quite a number are represented in the family tree through maternal lineage, which is not surprising because they include some very common names such as Farrugia and Vella.
But more importantly and intriguing to me is how can you tell that my haplogroup is E-V13 ? and what surnames would you associate with this particular haplogroup ?

Thanks for replying

Sincere regards
Franck

----------


## Rodolfo Durante

When the Arabs invaded Malta in 870 AD North Africa was populated mainly by Berbers, and the descendants of the Phoenicians and Romans. It is very likely that when Malta was repopulated around 1050, if we are to take Al-Hamyari's account as the Bible truth, meaning the island was uninhabited for nearly 200 years, possible but unlikely, given the strategic position, the main influx would have come from Sicily. These Sicilians would have some Arab, Berber and Jewish blood but most of them would have been the conversos descendants of the original Sicilian natives. The last Muslim stronghold in Spain fell in 1492, and their history there is very well documented, studying Spanish parallels can shed valuable light on Maltese early Mediaeval history, where we are lacking in valuable documentation. Professor Wettinger laid the foundations and broadened horizons regarding misconceptions sieving the truth from folklore.

----------


## Ozzie

When I was at 23andMe I made notes of my Relative List Y chromosome haplogroups and surname. I did that to see how much non paternal events occurred in Maltese people. I found few anomalies which could have been NPE or a freed slave taking their old master's name or a foundling given a surname or a foreigner who decided to assume a Maltese surname. I only know one surname that is E-V13, it is also the name of a village. I don't know every haplogroup with every surname, just the ones that appeared in my Relative List, and 23andMe gave basic haplogroup information.

Examples: Micallef, and Vella are both I-M223, Portelli is R-M417, Galea is R-M269, Camilleri is J-M172. I found another surname that is E-V13, it starts with S, and often confused in marriage records with a surname that starts with Z.

One thing I found out from dna testing is I thought I was from Malta, but I found one of my great great..grandmothers was Gozitan and because of her on Ancestry, most of the Maltese people I get are of Gozitan stock, they have a lot of cousin marriages.

----------

