# Population Genetics > mtDNA Haplogroups > L >  New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

## Maciamo

MtDNA haplogroup L is the oldest maternal branch of humanity comprises almost all the lineages in sub-Saharan Africa. All Eurasian haplogroups descend from L3, the subclade that is the most common in the Arabian peninsula and North-East Africa. All four top branches of L (L0, L1, L2 and L3) are nevertheless found in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe.



The correlation between mtDNA L and Y-DNA E1b1b (the main African paternal lineage) is striking, although expected. But what is more interesting is the lack of correlation between E-V13, the main European branch of E1b1b, and mtDNA L. While the distribution of Franco-Iberian E-M81 and the Near Eastern E-M123 match fairly well that of mtDNA L, one could wonder why the southern Balkans, where E-V13 makes up between 10 and 50% of the paternal lineages, have only 0.4% of mtDNA L. Haplogroup L is actually present at trace frequency (0.2 to 0.5%) in most of Eastern and Central Europe, and is only totally absent in Finland, Baltic countries, Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and North-East Italy, and the Caucasus (except among the Ossetians and Nogays). This actually correlates well with the distribution of E-V13, which means that when the E-V13 population reached Europe, only about 1% of the women who accompanied them belonged to mtDNA L. In contrast, in Iberia and France, the percentage of mtDNA L women accompanying E-M81 men would have been between 20 and 40% (U6 would have been another major lineage).

In Egypt, Jordan, Palestine and Syria, mtDNA L makes up almost exactly half the percentage of E1b1b lineages. In Lebanon, Turkey and Kurdistan, the proportion falls to 10-15%, which means that E1b1b men advanced (presumably during the Neolithic) north marrying more often local women than women from their tribe. By the time they reached the Balkans and southern Italy, most maternal lineages had become local or picked up on the way. The same phenomenon could have happened for both E-M123 and E-V13, with the difference that E-V13 would have boomed in the Balkans due to a founder effect in the Early Neolithic population. An alternative possibility is that E-V13 mixed with non-African women (probably haplogroup H) in North Africa during the Late Palaeolithic or Mesolithic before crossing over to southern Europe. This hybrid population could have been living in North Africa for millennia before crossing the Mediterranean, perhaps during one of the periods when the Sahara was green and teeming with large animals.

In Western Europe, E-M81 and mtDNA L were almost certainly in Europe before the Neolithic. They were one of the many groups of hunter-gatherers roaming across Europe, alongside Y-DNA I and R1a and mtDNA H1, H3, U2, U4, U5, U6, V and W. Considering that H1, U5, U6 and V are all present among the Berbers of Northwest Africa, it is likely that E-M81 men belonged to these lineages as well. It is interesting how Cantabria and Auvergne both have unusually elevated percentages of both E-M81 and R1a-SRY1532 (the Mesolithic variant) and both have a higher percentage of mtDNA L, U4, U5 and V than their neighbours.

The L lineages in Central Italy were surely brought by the Etruscans from Anatolia. Additional lineages may have come to Rome during the imperial period.

The slightly higher percentage (0.5%) of L in Serbia and Bosnia corresponds to a known hotspot of Y-haplogroup T (a lineage closely linked to E1b1b).


EDIT : It's also interesting to see the correlation between mtDNA L and the African autosomal admixture from the Dodecad K=12.

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## Sile

> MtDNA haplogroup L is the oldest maternal branch of humanity comprises almost all the lineages in sub-Saharan Africa. All Eurasian haplogroups descend from L3, the subclade that is the most common in the Arabian peninsula and North-East Africa. All four top branches of L (L0, L1, L2 and L3) are nevertheless found in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup L is actually present at trace frequency (0.2 to 0.5%) in most of Eastern and Central Europe, and is only totally absent in Finland, Baltic countries, Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, and North-East Italy, and the Caucasus (except among the Ossetians and Nogays). This actually correlates well with the distribution of E-V13, which means that when the E-V13 population reached Europe, only about 1% of the women who accompanied them belonged to mtDNA L. In contrast, in Iberia and France, the percentage of mtDNA L women accompanying E-M81 men would have been between 20 and 40% (U6 would have been another major lineage).
> 
> It is interesting how Cantabria and Auvergne both have unusually elevated percentages of both E-M81 and R1a-SRY1532 (the Mesolithic variant) and both have a higher percentage of mtDNA L, U4, U5 and V than their neighbours.
> 
> The L lineages in Central Italy were surely brought by the Etruscans from Anatolia. Additional lineages may have come to Rome during the imperial period.
> ...


- It is more likely that L in the middle-east part did not go to the west and was not part of the Etruscans. This years paper from Ghiotto clearly states the etruscans left Anatolia no later than 7600 years ago and settled in Italy 2800 years ago. Where did they go, ?..............
The very old old story that etruscans came from Tunisia and Libya might have some merit.

- the western Europe 2.5% part and above ( except central France and beyond) , look typical Carthaginian/Phoenician marker , maybe a large number of women as cooks and whores accompanying Hannibal 

- I do not know of any hotspot of T in serbia/bosnia, that patch represent the hotspot for N1 ( ydna) . I can only imagine that L marker there coming from Italy, maybe as a filler of population after the Romans butchered the illyrians in the illyrian revolt of 9BC onwards.

E over time





for curiosity, my mtdna ancient line

L1'2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'6
L3'4'6
L3'4
L3
N
R
R0
HV
H etc etc

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## Maciamo

> E over time


Eh, that's my old map of E1b1b migration from 5 years ago. I had removed it from Eupedia because I had doubts about the migration paths.

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## Wilhelm

So high in Iberia ? I've done my own research and by no means it arrives at the 7.5-10% as you put in South Spain...here are some samples that I have : 

Spain n = 15/813 *1.84%* Achilli et al 2007
Spain, n = 0/686 * 0.00%* Rhouda 2006
Spain n = 0/233 *0.00%*, Lopez-Parra 2009
Spain n = 1/251 *0.40%* Plaza et al. 2003
Spain n = 9/312 * 2.90%* Álvarez et al. 2007
Spain n = 1/108 *0.90%* Casas et al. 2006 *
Spain n = 2/226 * 0.88%* Maca-Meyer et al. 2003
Spain n = 15/742 *2.02%* García et al. 2011
Spain (Basques) n = 0/462 *0.00%* García et al. 2011
Spain, Zamora Province n =10/214 * 4.67%* Álvarez et al. 2010 
Spain, n = 8/496 * 1.61%* Pereira et al. 2005

*Spain Total*  n = 51 / 4.329 *1.18% 

*
Also other countries you don't have marked such as : 

Finnish n = 1/50 * 2.00%* Sajantila et al. 1995
Finland n = 1/121 * 0.83%* Achilli et al 2007
Finns n = 3/580 * 0.52%*   Pliss et al. 2005

-----

Poland n = 1/542 * 0.20%*  Achilli et al 2007
Poland n = 1/436 *0.22%* Malyarchuk et al., 2002 
Poles n = 1/849 * 0.12%* Malyarchuk et al., 2008 

-----

Slovaks n = 2/207 *0.97%* Malyarchuk et al.2006
Czechs n = 1/279 *0.36%* Malyarchuk et al., 2008 

-----

Norway n = 1/74 * 1.40%* Passarino et al 2002
Norwegians n = 2/397 *0.50%*  Pliss et al. 2005

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## Maciamo

> So high in Iberia ? I've done my own research and by no means it arrives at the 7.5-10% as you put in South Spain...here are some samples that I have : 
> 
> Spain n = 15/813 *1.84%* Achilli et al 2007
> Spain, n = 0/686 * 0.00%* Rhouda 2006
> Spain n = 0/233 *0.00%*, Lopez-Parra 2009
> Spain n = 1/251 *0.40%* Plaza et al. 2003
> Spain n = 9/312 * 2.90%* Álvarez et al. 2007
> Spain n = 1/108 *0.90%* Casas et al. 2006 *
> Spain n = 2/226 * 0.88%* Maca-Meyer et al. 2003
> ...


For Spain I used the data from : Alvarez et al. 2007 (n=265), Álvarez-Iglesias et al. 2009 (n=515), Casas et al. 2006 (n=418), Cordoso et al. 2010 (n=60), Corte-Real et al. 1996 (n=41), Corte-Real et al. 1996 & Richards et al. 1996 (n=30), Crespillo et al. 2000 (n=118), Falachi et al. 2006 (n=133), Garcia et al. 2011 (n=131), Gonzalez et al. 2003 (n=43), Larruga et al. 2001 (n=149), Maca-Meyer et al. 2003 (n=160), Picornell et al. 2005 (n=183), Pinto et al. 1996 (n=18), Plaza et al. 2003 (n=95), Prieto et al. 2011 (n=365), Salas et al. 1998 (n=92).

Casas et al. 2006 found 7.4% of L in southern Iberia (n=310).

Your average has been significantly lowered by taking into account the data from Rhouda et al. 2006, which is a actually study about Morocco, and apparently a pretty controversial or disreputable paper since it was not published by any scientific journal and has virtually disappeared from the Web. This study also fails to mention where the Spanish samples came from. If the 0% of L is correct, then it might be based on purely Basque samples.

Then you didn't notice that the data of Achilli et al. 2007 was mostly taken from older studies, including Plaza et al.




> Also other countries you don't have marked such as : 
> 
> Finnish n = 1/50 * 2.00%* Sajantila et al. 1995
> Finland n = 1/121 * 0.83%* Achilli et al 2007
> Finns n = 3/580 * 0.52%*   Pliss et al. 2005


For Finland I also have Finnilä et al. 2001 (n=189), Hedmann et al. 2007 (n=196), Kittles et al. 1999 (n=74), Lahermo et al. 1996 (n=32), Meinilä et al. 2001 (401), and Richards et al. 1996 (29). Average 0.38%.




> Poland n = 1/542 * 0.20%*  Achilli et al 2007
> Poland n = 1/436 *0.22%* Malyarchuk et al., 2002 
> Poles n = 1/849 * 0.12%* Malyarchuk et al., 2008


That's also what I have. As I explained above, most countries in Central and Eastern Europe have between 0.2 and 0.5% of mtDNA L. But the map starts at 0.5% and only Serbia and Bosnia have that level in Eastern Europe.




> Slovaks n = 2/207 *0.97%* Malyarchuk et al.2006
> Czechs n = 1/279 *0.36%* Malyarchuk et al., 2008


For Slovakia I also have the data for Lehocký et al. 2008 (n=374), which gives an average of 0.34% with Malyarchuk et al.




> Norway n = 1/74 * 1.40%* Passarino et al 2002
> Norwegians n = 2/397 *0.50%*  Pliss et al. 2005


For Norway I also have Opdal et al. 1998 (215) and Helgasson et al. 2001 (n=323). Average 0.32%.

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## Wilhelm

> Your average has been significantly lowered by taking into account the data from Rhouda et al. 2006, which is a actually study about Morocco, and apparently a pretty controversial or disreputable paper since it was not published by any scientific journal and has virtually disappeared from the Web. This study also fails to mention where the Spanish samples came from. If the 0% of L is correct, then it might be based on purely Basque samples..


Nope, the study can be found here. It's from the University of Zaragoza in collaboration with a moroccan university. As for the Spanish sample, it's not from Basques but actually from Madrid and Zaragoza and taken from another study (Dahmany et al.)

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## fla88

Hello,
I'm very curious about the Etruscan origin of mtdna L3 in Italy. Could anyone tell me more about it? I know L3 is really rare in Europe but it's typically African. I'm from Italy (Liguria), and my ancestors (as far as I know) are European..but according to 23 and me my maternal haplogroup is L3f1b. So, could I have very remote Etruscan origins?

Thank you :)

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## Angela

> Hello,
> I'm very curious about the Etruscan origin of mtdna L3 in Italy. Could anyone tell me more about it? I know L3 is really rare in Europe but it's typically African. I'm from Italy (Liguria), and my ancestors (as far as I know) are European..but according to 23 and me my maternal haplogroup is L3f1b. So, could I have very remote Etruscan origins?
> 
> Thank you :)


Why would you assume that the source is in the Etruscans?

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## Aberdeen

> Why would you assume that the source is in the Etruscans?


Because Maciamo said:

"In Western Europe, E-M81 and mtDNA L were almost certainly in Europe before the Neolithic. They were one of the many groups of hunter-gatherers roaming across Europe, alongside Y-DNA I and R1a and mtDNA H1, H3, U2, U4, U5, U6, V and W. Considering that H1, U5, U6 and V are all present among the Berbers of Northwest Africa, it is likely that E-M81 men belonged to these lineages as well. It is interesting how Cantabria and Auvergne both have unusually elevated percentages of both E-M81 and R1a-SRY1532 (the Mesolithic variant) and both have a higher percentage of mtDNA L, U4, U5 and V than their neighbours.

The L lineages in Central Italy were surely brought by the Etruscans from Anatolia. Additional lineages may have come to Rome during the imperial period."

I would have thought that L would have come from either the Roman period or the period when moslems from North Africa occupied southern Italy and Sicily. However, that wouldn't explain why L is found at low levels in Germany, Denmark and southern Sweden, or why it's absent from southern Italy other than Sicily, if that is in fact correct. So there must have been some early L in Europe. Since it's common in Anatolia, and since the Etruscans apparently came from Anatolia, I can see why it's assumed that the Etruscans brought L from Anatolia when you look at its distribution in Italy (except in Sicily, where I still think it could be partly recent North African).

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## fla88

Thank you for your answers :)
That's precisely what I thought. Looking at the map it's just curious how L3 mtDNA is spread. No sign , for instance, in Puglia and Calabria, but higher percentage in Toscana and Liguria.
Another curious thing is that my 23andMe results show no African admixture. They show, on the other hand, < 0.1 % of East Asian and Native American. 

That really made me think "Who on earth was my ancestral MOM?"

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## Nobody1

_Ghirotto et al 2013_ tested 30 Etruscan corpses (6th-1st century BC) from 6 diff. sites;
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...e.0055519.s009

The result was that the Etruscan maternal-lineage is identical to _Neolithic-Europeans_ and closest to modern day _South Germans_; An amateur on the internet determined that most Etruscan mtDNA Hg's were U5, JT and H1b (no mtDNA L);
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...-comments.html

mtDNA L was also *not* found in any of the older European sites tested so far - whether from the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze-age or even Paleolithic Cro-Magnons (R0/HV/N*); The complete absence of mtDNA L in ancient Europe - makes mtDNA L a rather new input into Europe with L2 and L1 being West-African and L3 East African; 

_Cerezo et al 2012_
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821.full


It is mostly present in modern-day Europe in Iberia (Spain/Portugal) and maybe your _ancestral MOM_ stems from there; Modern-day Tuscany (322 samples / Achilli et al 2008) has 1.8% mtDNA L;

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## Angela

@fla88: I wrote this a couple of hours ago and forgot to post it, so this may be a bit redundant. 

It's true that certain specific mtDNA "L" clades have been found in Toscana. However, I don't see any reason to assume they were necessarily brought by the Etruscans, if indeed it's ever proven that the Etruscans, even the "elite" Etruscans, are not "native" to Italy in the first place. As Nobody1 pointed out, there is no evidence from ancient DNA that the Etruscans themselves carried it. 

Certain mtDNA "L" lineages appear in Syria in the Neolithic. The presence of mtDNA "L" in Toscana could very well also date to the Neolithic. Then, there are all the subsequent movements into the area, including by North Africans in the Roman era, and by southern Italians in more modern times, some of whose ancestors may have picked up this marker from the Saracens who invaded Sicily and some areas of the south in the early Medieval era. 

In terms of Liguria, it was settled in the Neolithic by Cardial peoples who could very well have carried a few mtDNA "L" lineages with them. Then, it was a great sea power for many centuries during which a stray mtDNA lineage or two could have been brought home. Finally, although the Saracens never established dominions in the north in any way comparable to what happened in the south, there is a well attested incursion into Provence in which Saracens by way of Spain established a base from there all the way into the Alpine passes in Switzerland, which they controlled for quite some time. In addition to setting themselves up as brigands who could extort money from travelers using the Alpine passes, there is also evidence for some settlement in some parts of Provence. I'm not suggesting that this was a particularly large group or that the incursion lasted very long, but certainly long enough, I would think, to leave a few markers behind. These markers could, with time, have migrated along the coast to Liguria and eventually even into Toscana.
http://www.academia.edu/3537846/Frax...ntury_Provence 

Jean Manco's online catalog of ancient DNA is a good resource. I recommend it. From examining it:

No sample of mesolithic DNA has, as of yet, come back mtDNA "L". 

This is a catalog of ancient DNA from the Near Eastern Neolithic. You can see the presence of L2a1 in Neolithic Syria.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/was...ithicdna.shtml

This is the list for ancient DNA from North Africa and the Canary Islands. You can see the presence of both L2 and L3 there.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/nafricaadna.shtml

It shows up in Bronze Age Sumerian DNA (L2a1) from 2550 B.C.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

It only shows up in ancient DNA in Europe in Spain:
Tres Montes, Spain, Bell Beaker in 2130 B.C. (Again, it's L2)
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml
Al Andalus, 1100-1300 AD: L3d, L1b, L2, L2a1.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

This doesn't mean it didn't exist elsewhere; it's just that no evidence has so far shown up.

If anyone is aware of any other ancient mtDNA L samples in western Eurasia, it would be great if we could include it.

As for modern samples, some studies have indeed picked it up in Italy, including in southern Italy, and not just in Sicily, and it has been picked up through individual commercial testing. 

In this regard, see this discussion of Ottoni et al on Dienekes' site. Unfortunately, the study is still behind a pay wall, so the following quote, by a poster who claimed to have access, is the only info I have available. 
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10...ern-italy.html

"Haplogroups L1/L3e, which are typical of South-Saharan Africa (Salas et al. 2002) were found in Calabria (1%), Sicily (2%) and Basilicata (2%)". The poster also states that the math appears to be incorrect, if you can believe it, and the percentages are actually lower.

Maybe someone with institutional access could check the figures.

Btw, the academic data for modern Tuscany is also very inconclusive in my opinion. I often see a 2% mtDNA "L" level posted for Tuscany. However, the study which is often cited as support, the Achilli et al 2007 one, only sampled the small towns of Murlo, Volterra, and the Casentino valley. It was not a representative sample in any way. Indeed, if you take a look at table 1 of that study, you'll see that the percentage is basically due to the finding of 3 mtDNA L3d samples in the town of Volterra. Given the inter-relatedness of small Italian cities, that undoubtedly is a result of founder effect. 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...723/table/TB1/

Even when considering this data only with regard to the Etruscans, while the Etruscans certainly had a presence in those areas, there's no way to validate that they are the ones who brought the lineages to those particular towns. Indeed, the last study on Etruscan mtDNA of which I'm aware, flawed as it is, shows that the mtDNA of actual ancient Etruscans from these areas, which was claimed to have a particular affinity to Anatolia and thus to provide proof for a Bronze Age Anatolian source for the Etruscans has now been shown to be so ancient that it could very well be Neolithic in origin. 

That's why I take absolutely no position on the origin of the Etruscans, and won't do so until someone competent does a complete genomic study of attested ancient remains. 

The problem is that the testing of ancient samples, particularly in the early years, was often subject to contamination. Also, the typing was and too often still is very cursory, only looking at HVRI sequences, for example, as has been a perennial problem with the testing of Etruscan samples. In order to track the migration history of one's own sequence, it would be necessary to compare one's own FGS mtDNA to the FGS of ancient samples, very few of which have been done for any clade. When they have been done, they are almost never done for real "minority" clades in Europe.

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## Drac II

> Nope, the study can be found here. It's from the University of Zaragoza in collaboration with a moroccan university. As for the Spanish sample, it's not from Basques but actually from Madrid and Zaragoza and taken from another study (Dahmany et al.)


Indeed, it is a perfectly legitimate paper, published at a biochemical conference (Congres International de Biochimie, 2006.) It is in fact the study dealing with the subject of mtDNA L in Spain with the largest sample size of any that have been published. The only people who ever found this study "objectionable" were those with obvious agendas who certainly were not happy with the results, like that "Luis" character, remember his specious manipulations and lies about what it and its related earlier study by the same authors plainly said?:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...MtDna-in-Spain

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## Drac II

> _Ghirotto et al 2013_ tested 30 Etruscan corpses (6th-1st century BC) from 6 diff. sites;
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...e.0055519.s009
> 
> The result was that the Etruscan maternal-lineage is identical to _Neolithic-Europeans_ and closest to modern day _South Germans_;


I found this an interesting passage: 

"DNAs from modern humans and cattle in Tuscany show affinities with Near Eastern DNAs, which was interpreted as supporting Herodotus’ narrative [2], [6], but in these studies modern Tuscans were assumed to be descended from Etruscan ancestors, in contrast with ancient DNA evidence [5]." 

Do you realize that the implication here is that the modern Tuscan population is more like Near Easterners than the Etruscans were? Apparently some "change" in the population of the area must have happened after the decline of the Etruscans and the subsequent rise of the Romans and their empire. This was all during historical times, not Neolithic or earlier. But apparently it does not bother you as long as it doesn't involve those pesky "Africans".




> mtDNA L was also *not* found in any of the older European sites tested so far - whether from the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze-age or even Paleolithic Cro-Magnons (R0/HV/N*); The complete absence of mtDNA L in ancient Europe - makes mtDNA L a rather new input into Europe with L2 and L1 being West-African and L3 East African;


Not quite. As Angela pointed out, at least in Iberia this mtDNA was indeed present at least since prehistoric times. It might be of more recent arrival in other places in Europe, though.




> It is mostly present in modern-day Europe in Iberia (Spain/Portugal) and maybe your _ancestral MOM_ stems from there; Modern-day Tuscany (322 samples / Achilli et al 2008) has 1.8% mtDNA L;


No need to desperately go seeking to attribute mtDNA L among Italians to somewhere else in Europe, since Italy has plenty of it all by itself, no need for "outside help".

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## Sile

> Indeed, it is a perfectly legitimate paper, published at a biochemical conference (Congres International de Biochimie, 2006.) It is in fact the study dealing with the subject of mtDNA L in Spain with the largest sample size of any that have been published. The only people who ever found this study "objectionable" were those with obvious agendas who certainly were not happy with the results, like that "Luis" character, remember his specious manipulations and lies about what it and its related earlier study by the same authors plainly said?:
> 
> http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...MtDna-in-Spain


But Luis was Portuguese and IIRC he was combating the castilian rubbish that all Portuguese where of African descent

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## fla88

I would like to thank you all for your answers :)

Trying to summerize.. my mtDNA may come from these areas:

- Subsaharan Africa
- North Africa
- East Africa
- Middle East
- Canary Islands
- Iberian Peninsula

Am I correct?

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## Sile

> I would like to thank you all for your answers :)
> 
> Trying to summerize.. my mtDNA may come from these areas:
> 
> - Subsaharan Africa
> - North Africa
> - East Africa
> - Middle East
> - Canary Islands
> ...


add the Levant and Anatolia to that list 

Join Gedmatch and this might help you

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## fla88

> add the Levant and Anatolia to that list 
> 
> Join Gedmatch and this might help you


thank you :)

I tried many calculators on gedmatch but could you tell me which calculator is more accurate?

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## Nobody1

mtDNA L is actually quite low in Sicily much like the Mediterranean (Italian/Crete/Cypriot) range/average of 1%-3%; 
In contrast to the higher Atlantic Spain and Portugal;

*Sicily -*
Sicily [106 samples / Cali et al 2003] = 0.9%
Sicily [105 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
Sicily [169 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 0.6%

*Italy -*
Tuscany [322 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
Marche [813 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.9%
Central Italy [83 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 1.2%
Lombardy [177samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%
Piedmont [169 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%
Basilicata [92 samples / Ottoni et al 2009] = 2.2%
Apulia/Calabria [226 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 0.0%

*Spain -* 
Iberia (Spain/Portugal) [310 samples / Casas et al 2006] = 7.4%
Central Spain [50 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 4.0%
NW Spain [216 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 3.7%
Galicia [92 samples / Pereira et al 2005] = 3.3%
Spain (Prov. Zamora) [214 samples / Alvarez et al 2010] = 4.7%
Spain (Com. Sayago) [33 samples / Alvarez et al 2010] = 18.1%
Cordoba [108 samples / Casas et al 2006] = 8.3%
Catalonia [101 samples / Alvarez-Iglesias et al 2009] = 2.9%

*Portugal -*
Portugal [549 samples / Pereira et al 2005] = 5.8%
North Portugal [100 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 5.0%
Central Portugal [82 samples / Pereira et al 2010] = 9.7%
South Portugal [195 samples / Brehm et al 2003] = 11.3%

@ *Angela* 
The tripple town tests are quite common praxis for mtDNA L;

_Tuscany_ [Achilli et al 2007]: Murlo 1.2% / Volterra 2.6% / Casentino 1.6%
_Sicily_ [Romano et al 2003]: Sciacca 2.3% / Castelamare 0.8% / Ragusa 0.0% / Troina 0.0% 
_Portugal_ [Pereira et al 2010]: Coruche 8.7% / Pias 3.9% / Alcacer do Sal 22.0%

The high number for Portugal were given as with the Atlantic-slave trade and slaves from West Africa;
_Pereira et al 2010 -_
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20737604

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## Sile

> thank you :)
> 
> I tried many calculators on gedmatch but could you tell me which calculator is more accurate?


for me..only the dodecad ones of 3 , 7 and 12b

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## Sile

> mtDNA L is actually quite low in Sicily much like the Mediterranean (Italian/Crete/Cypriot) range/average of 1%-3%; 
> In contrast to the higher Atlantic Spain and Portugal;
> 
> *Sicily -*
> Sicily [106 samples / Cali et al 2003] = 0.9%
> Sicily [105 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
> Sicily [169 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 0.6%
> 
> *Italy -*
> ...


Is 18.1% for Spain correct or is it a misprint?

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## Nobody1

> Is 18.1% for Spain correct or is it a misprint?


Absolutely correct;

*Alvarez et al 2010*
http://www.academia.edu/1270087/Mito...amora_province

Sayago is a comarca in Zamora province (North Spain) and acc. to the study Zamora is total 4.7% and Sayago 18.2% mtDNA L;

_As regards sub-Saharan Hgs (L1b, L2b, and L3b), the high frequency found in the southern regions of Zamora, 18.2% in Sayago and 8.1% in Bajo Duero, is comparable to that described for the South of Portugal, but it does not have any parallels with any other analyzed areas in the Northern part of Iberia (Pereira et al., 2005)_

----------


## Vallicanus

Rouda et alia also had 1.9 pc L for Andalusia. 
Parts of Old Castile and Aragon (Zaragoza) may well have zero L or nearly so.

If parts of Sicily have zero mtdna L like Troina and Ragusa there may well be towns still to be analysed in Tuscany or Lazio which will have ZERO too.
Volterra, Murlo and the Casentino area are not exactly in the more populous and significant areas of Tuscany.

I'll bet the tiny 0.9 pc of mtdna L (8 out of 813 people) in the Marche is concentrated in just one or two communities of that region.

Until recent times Italy and Spain had numerous communities or areas with minimal interaction or intermarriage.,

----------


## Drac II

> But Luis was Portuguese and IIRC he was combating the castilian rubbish that all Portuguese where of African descent


That's what he claims he was. I suspect he was actually a Brazilian.

----------


## Drac II

> I would like to thank you all for your answers :)
> 
> Trying to summerize.. my mtDNA may come from these areas:
> 
> - Subsaharan Africa
> - North Africa
> - East Africa
> - Middle East
> - Canary Islands
> ...


No, you left out Italy, where you are from.

----------


## fla88

> No, you left out Italy, where you are from.


But I want to know where mtDNA L3 is from originally; not where it spread... I don't think it was found in ancient times in Italy, unless Etruscans carried it (but Etruscans were actually from Anatolia)

----------


## fla88

I tried many calculators but the results are very different... 
For Eurogenes K36 I'm also more Iberian than Italian which actually sounds kinda weird

----------


## Drac II

> mtDNA L is actually quite low in Sicily much like the Mediterranean (Italian/Crete/Cypriot) range/average of 1%-3%; 
> In contrast to the higher Atlantic Spain and Portugal;
> 
> *Sicily -*
> Sicily [106 samples / Cali et al 2003] = 0.9%
> Sicily [105 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
> Sicily [169 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 0.6%
> 
> *Italy -*
> ...


How "strange" that you are again cherry-picking and leaving out other studies that don't say what you want to hear. But don't worry, I am here to remind you of them every time I catch you manipulating things to promote your obvious agenda:

*Spain -*

Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0% 

(Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%

Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%

Lopez-Parra et al. 2009 (Pyrenaic regions) [233 samples] = 0%

*Italy -*

Semino et al. 1989 (Sicily) [49 samples]: 4.40%

Plaza et al. 2003 (Southern Italy) [37 samples]: 8.1%

Brisighelli et al. 2012 (NW Italy) [100 samples]: 2%

----------


## Drac II

> But I want to know where mtDNA L3 is from originally; not where it spread... I don't think it was found in ancient times in Italy, unless Etruscans carried it (but Etruscans were actually from Anatolia)


It's originally from East Africa, as someone else already pointed out.

----------


## Drac II

> Is 18.1% for Spain correct or is it a misprint?


Yes, it was correct for that municipality, just like the "mysteriously" absent from his cherry-picked list Plaza et al. 2003 statement for southern Italy was absolutely correct and not a misprint either:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....e_Hercules.pdf
_
L haplogroups are relatively infrequent in Italians (with a maximum of 8.1% in South Italians) and Iberians (with a maximum of 6.1% in Central Portuguese)._

----------


## fla88

> It's originally from East Africa, as someone else already pointed out.


I read East Africa as well.. then I read it was also present in ancient times in Middle East, Anatolia, Canary Islands and north Africa .. Some people also believe it is actually Eurasian

----------


## Sile

> That's what he claims he was. I suspect he was actually a Brazilian.


Brazil and Italy are far apart, different sides of the world

----------


## Sile

> Yes, it was correct for that municipality, just like the "mysteriously" absent from his cherry-picked list Plaza et al. 2003 statement for southern Italy was absolutely correct and not a misprint either:
> 
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....e_Hercules.pdf
> _
> L haplogroups are relatively infrequent in Italians (with a maximum of 8.1% in South Italians) and Iberians (with a maximum of 6.1% in Central Portuguese)._


see post #5

----------


## Wilhelm

> How "strange" that you are again cherry-picking and leaving out other studies that don't say what you want to hear. But don't worry, I am here to remind you of them every time I catch you manipulating things to promote your obvious agenda:
> 
> *Spain -*
> 
> Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0% 
> 
> (Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%
> 
> Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%
> ...


Yes, and others he also misteriously missed, like : 

Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 *2.90%* Achilli et al 2007
Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 *2.63%* Achilli et al 2007

----------


## Knovas

> That's what he claims he was. I suspect he was actually a Brazilian.


I unmasked this guy. Actually he was half French and half Berber, nothing to do with the Portuguese or Brazilian people. He joins 23andme, and he had the brilliant idea to post the same exact things in both forums. Not difficult to catch him.

----------


## Sile

> Yes, and others he also misteriously missed, like : 
> 
> Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 *2.90%* Achilli et al 2007
> Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 *2.63%* Achilli et al 2007


Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities

you answered the query

----------


## Angela

> How "strange" that you are again cherry-picking and leaving out other studies that don't say what you want to hear. But don't worry, I am here to remind you of them every time I catch you manipulating things to promote your obvious agenda:
> 
> *Spain -*
> 
> Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0% 
> 
> (Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%
> 
> Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%
> ...


Nobody1 is a valued member of this community, one who contributes research and analysis on many topics, from genetics, to history and archaeology, to linguistics, and in the context of discussions about many European countries.

This is in total contrast to you and your Iberian posse, who only grace us with your presence when Spain is mentioned, and then only in the hopes of proving that there is no African influence whatsoever in Iberia, an influence which is manifestly there for everyone to see in the mtDNA, yDNA, and particularly in the autosomal DNA. Your endeavor is therefore doomed to failure and merely makes you all look either dishonest or delusional, and ridiculous in either case. Ever heard of the term ethnic nihilists? I believe it, or something like it, was coined by Maciamo.

Oh, excuse me, if this current visit is any indication, you've moved beyond denying that these mtdna numbers exist (there is deafening silence about the autosomal results shown in recent papers, however) Now, you content yourselves with arguing that Italians have it too. Congratulations...we're seeing some progress in your deprogramming. 

And please, spare us all the unending posts about papers that find mtDNA "L" in Italy. You've already directed Maciamo's attention to them in this thread, and have posted them again, and again, and again, in the hundreds, if not thousands, of boring, repetitive other posts on this topic here and elsewhere. 

No one on this site, to my knowledge, denies that there is some mtDNA "L" in Italy. I certainly don't. I don't give a ***** behind about it, either. As to arguing about whether some particular study should show 1%, instead of 2-3%, with the aim of trying to somehow deny or minimize its existence whether in the abstract or in relationship to some other nationality, I can't imagine so demeaning myself. 
. 
And while I'm at it, stop posting papers on the Basques for these kinds of comparisons. Pick up some of the recent autosomal studies on Europe, and look up the SSA percentages, the EEF percentages, you name it. For whatever reason, you have a different profile than even Pais Vasco...a small minority of your population anyway...deal with it.

Really, and I mean this sincerely...you and your friends and many of the young people whose posts I have read on the topic of genetics have been led astray. I try to excuse this kind of behavior on the grounds of what I presume is the extreme youth of you and your friends...but at your age I was working 60-70 hours a week, which didn't leave me any time to obsess on that kind of nonsense even had I been at all inclined to those kinds of viewpoints. If the economy prevents that, go to school, broaden your mind and your horizons. Study the culture of your own country...that should be the source of your pride, not how many "European" or northwest European or Celtic or whatever genes you have...

----------


## fla88

what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?

----------


## fla88

> Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities
> 
> you answered the query


Etruscan connection could be confirmed then

----------


## Angela

> Etruscan connection could be confirmed then


I don't see how that follows. The fact that it's found there today doesn't mean it was necessarily brought by Etruscans perhaps 3,000 years ago; a lot of migrations occurred both before and after the Etruscans, if indeed they weren't "native" in whole or in great majority. 

The *only* way that a link could be made in any way definitively would be if we had an Etruscan "L" mtDNA that was similar to the mtDNA L found there today. Unfortunately, even leaving aside the fact that there isn't enough resolution of the L3d found there, an actual ancient Etruscan sample that carries any "L" lineage has never been found.

----------


## Angela

> what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?


Absolutely nothing, fla88. This hobby attracts bizarre people.

----------


## Vallicanus

Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.

ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.

Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.

----------


## Nobody1

> Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.


Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it; 

For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra); 

PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;

----------


## Aberdeen

> Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.
> 
> ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.
> 
> Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.


When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.

----------


## Drac II

> Nobody1 is a valued member of this community, one who contributes research and analysis on many topics, from genetics, to history and archaeology, to linguistics, and in the context of discussions about many European countries.
> 
> This is in total contrast to you and your Iberian posse, who only grace us with your presence when Spain is mentioned, and then only in the hopes of proving that there is no African influence whatsoever in Iberia, an influence which is manifestly there for everyone to see in the mtDNA, yDNA, and particularly in the autosomal DNA. Your endeavor is therefore doomed to failure and merely makes you all look either dishonest or delusional, and ridiculous in either case. Ever heard of the term ethnic nihilists? I believe it, or something like it, was coined by Maciamo.
> 
> Oh, excuse me, if this current visit is any indication, you've moved beyond denying that these mtdna numbers exist (there is deafening silence about the autosomal results shown in recent papers, however) Now, you content yourselves with arguing that Italians have it too. Congratulations...we're seeing some progress in your deprogramming. 
> 
> And please, spare us all the unending posts about papers that find mtDNA "L" in Italy. You've already directed Maciamo's attention to them in this thread, and have posted them again, and again, and again, in the hundreds, if not thousands, of boring, repetitive other posts on this topic here and elsewhere. 
> 
> No one on this site, to my knowledge, denies that there is some mtDNA "L" in Italy. I certainly don't. I don't give a ***** behind about it, either. As to arguing about whether some particular study should show 1%, instead of 2-3%, with the aim of trying to somehow deny or minimize its existence whether in the abstract or in relationship to some other nationality, I can't imagine so demeaning myself. 
> ...


Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.

My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised. 

Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?

----------


## Drac II

> When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.


You should be directing that query to the "respected forum members" whose behavior you are trying to condone. It seems it's them and some other Italians who are immensely bothered by the fact that they too "have a small but significant amount of African DNA".

----------


## Drac II

> Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.
> 
> ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.
> 
> Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.


Indeed, apparently they think that trying to place the blame on others is going to work and nobody will notice what they do.

----------


## Drac II

> Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it; 
> 
> For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra);


The 18% result is only for a municipality. If we look at the results of Casas et al. 2006 for southern Spain + southern Portugal (not all "Iberia", as you claimed) combined against those of southern Italy alone by itself in Plaza et al. 2003 we can also see that 8.1% is higher than 7.40% (basic math)

The map on page 1 omitted several studies. That was already established.




> PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;


He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.

----------


## Angela

> Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.
> 
> ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.
> 
> Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.



What a boorish, vulgar and completely ignorant response...Are you capable of processing academic information?

As to "the trouble on these websites", I don't know anything about it, because I don't frequent skinhead, racist sites, some of which were started by people whom I am informed are now thankfully behind bars. I didn't even know that they existed until recently. Now that I know about them, I am more than happy to donate some of my time to seeing them permanently put out of business, and I mean "ALL" of them.

This is the only "genetics" website which I frequent, other than anthrogenica, and I'm embarrassed even about that, given that my office administrator has banned this as a racist site as well, probably partly because of the bilge posted by you and your friends. I assure you that reading the few threads in which I am interested takes very little time...in your case, perhaps a speed reading course might be in order. Of course, reading and understanding population genetics research papers is another matter, but you obviously have no experience with that...

As for my private life situation, it's none of your business, but let's just say that through years of very hard work and whatever gifts I possess, I have earned my leisure. If, as I think I remember, you claim to be from Canada, you have no excuse not to do the same.

For the record, I am half Tuscan/eastern Ligurian, and extraordinarily proud of my people...without us, the world would be a much poorer place in every conceivable way, as it would be without Italians as a whole. Obviously, you must have been spawned by some group which we had neither the time nor the inclination to civilize, however imperfectly. 

And please, to adopt a Roman name for these sites and then spout the bilge and filth that you do is an abomination. I sincerely hope you're young and unemployed and living in your mother's basement...for a grown man to engage in these childish games is ridiculous.

----------


## Knovas

> PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;


It's been a very long time since you were banned under the t.r.o.l.l.-nickname Wormhole. You can keep going on, don't worry.

Just to illustrate what DracII says, this is what you said when answering to the Italian girl (post number 11):

_It is mostly present in modern-day Europe in Iberia (Spain/Portugal) and maybe your ancestral MOM stems from there; Modern-day Tuscany (322 samples / Achilli et al 2008) has 1.8% mtDNA L;

_And now, smile for the camera ;)

----------


## Drac II

> what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?


Nothing, but apparently some of your fellow Italians have a strange phobia regarding it and must always conjure up "Iberians" when someone starts asking questions about these genetic markers in Italy.

----------


## Drac II

> I unmasked this guy. Actually he was half French and half Berber, nothing to do with the Portuguese or Brazilian people. He joins 23andme, and he had the brilliant idea to post the same exact things in both forums. Not difficult to catch him.


Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.

----------


## Knovas

> He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.


If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.

----------


## Drac II

> Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities
> 
> you answered the query


You missed the point, which was that he is always manipulating and cherry-picking whichever data suits his transparent agenda. 

By the way, if you pool all the data in mtDNA studies about Italy published so far, you will end up with a higher frequency of mtDNA L in central Italy than in other parts. Since the Etruscans inhabited mostly the central parts of Italy, I think that answers the query of why some people who have an interest in trying to find out why this happened think of the Etruscans as a possible explanation.

----------


## Drac II

> If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.


I am not disputing your findings about this user, only was asking where did you expose him. I would be interested in seeing it. Was it here or in another forum/site?

----------


## Drac II

> Brazil and Italy are far apart, different sides of the world


I know, I never said that user was Italian.

----------


## Knovas

> Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.


That happened about two years ago, honestly I'm tired to search posts. But he was even taking part in the Dodecad Project, where he gave all his ancestry details (publicly available). I just had to compare the data with the 23andme profile, and then the threads started by this subject. No doubt it was the same person.

The information was posted in this forum, of course.

----------


## Drac II

> I read East Africa as well.. then I read it was also present in ancient times in Middle East, Anatolia, Canary Islands and north Africa .. Some people also believe it is actually Eurasian


Yes, correct, but the place where it originated was East Africa. It reached all those other places later, as early humans started to migrate to other parts of the world out of Africa, as well as possibly later migrations/invasions/slavery.

----------


## Drac II

> see post #5


See posts #4, #6 and #13. There is no valid excuse to leave out perfectly legitimate studies just because they don't say what some people want to hear or do not go along with whatever incorrect assumptions they may have (one particularly interesting one implied here was that the only way any study on mtDNA in Spain could result in 0% regarding L markers in any given area might be by using exclusively samples from the Basque region; totally incorrect assumption.)

----------


## Angela

> Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.
> 
> My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised. 
> 
> Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?


Only in the sick, twisted world of anthrofora Iberians could the disinterested comment that the Moors "*might*" be responsible for "*some*" of the "African" markers in the Iberians be considered a provocative attack. (I am *not* in the habit of making definitive "pronouncements" about these matters absent compelling evidence, which, given the status of the resolution of ancient "and" modern mtDNA lineages is impossible, in my opinion.) 

By the way, are all these Spanish researchers also part of this vast anti-Iberian conspiracy? Is the owner of this website included? Have you taken a look at the map on this page? The only error I can find is the fact that certain papers on southern Italy were not included, although accessing the actual data from those papers might be difficult. 

Have you, for that matter, read the papers on autosomal European genetics of the last couple of years? How do you explain those results away? Do you have any self awareness at all? Is your paranoia limited to this topic or more generalized? If it is more generalized, there are medications that might be helpful. Unfortunately, there are no medicines for terminal racism, outright dishonesty, or lack of intellectual capacity.

Just for clarity, I'm one of those Tuscan posters who was engaged in the discussion upthread about how these markers got to Toscana. However, neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me into not analyzing and discussing similar data in any country, including Spain. 

All the same, my time for responding to illogical and biased posts is limited...I will investigate whether it is possible to block the comments you and your Iberian junta post from appearing when I log onto this site...it's a response I would recommend to others until and if the website administrators realize that it is posts like yours that offend new users like fla, and get this site black listed ...then intelligent people can conduct these discussions without being derailed and having their time wasted. 

The only people who should be banned are you and other racists of your ilk...

----------


## fla88

> Yes, correct, but the place where it originated was East Africa. It reached all those other places later, as early humans started to migrate to other parts of the world out of Africa, as well as possibly later migrations/invasions/slavery.


East Africa then.. Ethiopia? 

I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)

----------


## Wilhelm

> Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it; 
> 
> For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra); 
> 
> PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;


I know you are just a tro11, but in case somebody is reading your crap...the 18% is not for Spain but for a small municipality with a popoulation of only a few thousand people,..You can't compare that with an entire region like Tuscany, it's laughable your manipulation and distortion of reality.
And In the case of Alcacer Do Sal (22%) it's a municipality whose history is well known and well documented for being an transatlantic slave town, in other words, they are not fully ethnic portuguese but descendants of Slaves.

----------


## Vallicanus

> What a boorish, vulgar and completely ignorant response...Are you capable of processing academic information?
> 
> As to "the trouble on these websites", I don't know anything about it, because I don't frequent skinhead, racist sites, some of which were started by people whom I am informed are now thankfully behind bars. I didn't even know that they existed until recently. Now that I know about them, I am more than happy to donate some of my time to seeing them permanently put out of business, and I mean "ALL" of them.
> 
> This is the only "genetics" website which I frequent, other than anthrogenica, and I'm embarrassed even about that, given that my office administrator has banned this as a racist site as well, probably partly because of the bilge posted by you and your friends. I assure you that reading the few threads in which I am interested takes very little time...in your case, perhaps a speed reading course might be in order. Of course, reading and understanding population genetics research papers is another matter, but you obviously have no experience with that...
> 
> As for my private life situation, it's none of your business, but let's just say that through years of very hard work and whatever gifts I possess, I have earned my leisure. If, as I think I remember, you claim to be from Canada, you have no excuse not to do the same.
> 
> For the record, I am half Tuscan/eastern Ligurian, and extraordinarily proud of my people...without us, the world would be a much poorer place in every conceivable way, as it would be without Italians as a whole. Obviously, you must have been spawned by some group which we had neither the time nor the inclination to civilize, however imperfectly. 
> ...


You call me VULGAR?

According to your gentle self I have been spawned and I spout filth.

It is obvious how have never been exposed to any form of higher education and you are the racist.

So in your view the world owes much to Italians when Italy as a modern nation only dates to 1861 (thanks to French and British assistance).

----------


## Sile

> When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.


It's because some idiots bring nationality issues into these forums, when they fail to realise that all modern Europeans started life as non-europeans. The oldest and original europeans where neanderthals

----------


## Sile

> Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.
> 
> My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised. 
> 
> Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?


who are these* "some other Italian/Italian-descended users"* ? I am very interested in your groupings of people based on nationality/descended nationality

----------


## Sile

> You should be directing that query to the "respected forum members" whose behavior you are trying to condone. It seems it's them and some other Italians who are immensely bothered by the fact that they too "have a small but significant amount of African DNA".


Before pointing the finger, you should reveal who you are, everything is hidden away.........ethnicity, genetics etc ................what are you ashamed of ?

----------


## Sile

> what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?


nothing is wrong it any genetic marker. Some people just use it for some warped nationalistic tones.

all you need to find is how long has yours been in Tuscany.

take a look at mine...from oldest to now...........I use it as a road map 


L1'2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'6
L3'4'6
L3'4
L3
N
R
R0
HV
H 
H95a

----------


## Sile

> I know, I never said that user was Italian.


You confused people on targeting Italians when the person was portuguese/brazilian, why ?

----------


## Sile

> See posts #4, #6 and #13. There is no valid excuse to leave out perfectly legitimate studies just because they don't say what some people want to hear or do not go along with whatever incorrect assumptions they may have (one particularly interesting one implied here was that the only way any study on mtDNA in Spain could result in 0% regarding L markers in any given area might be by using exclusively samples from the Basque region; totally incorrect assumption.)


Your missing the point......we all know L1, L2, L3 has origins in Africa.....N has origins in the caucasus etc .............but this is only origins and not where it *only* resided for thousands of year.
I like to see what L3 she is

I read recently that mutations occur on average every 4000 years, back or forward and that geographical changes ie migrations speeds up this mutation process initially before it subsides to "normality"

----------


## Sile

> East Africa then.. Ethiopia? 
> 
> I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)


Who did you test with? ...if it was 23andme, it would show your mutations from original to present, if not

use haplogrep...........they use the new tree#16

http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/index.html

----------


## fla88

> Who did you test with? ...if it was 23andme, it would show your mutations from original to present, if not
> 
> use haplogrep...........they use the new tree#16
> 
> http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/index.html


23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?
My mtDNA is L3f1b

----------


## Sile

> 23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?


yes

this

haplogroup Mutation mapper

and


Global Similarity Map


Countries of Ancestry

----------


## Wilhelm

> I know you are just a tro11, but in case somebody is reading your crap...the 18% is not for Spain but for a small municipality with a popoulation of only a few thousand people,..You can't compare that with an entire region like Tuscany, it's laughable your manipulation and distortion of reality.
> And In the case of Alcacer Do Sal (22%) it's a municipality whose history is well known and well documented for being an transatlantic slave town, in other words, they are not fully ethnic portuguese but descendants of Slaves.


Lol, LebRok (as usual) has sent me an "infraction" for the above message because to him "i'm insulting".

----------


## Knovas

> 23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?
> My mtDNA is L3f1b


I have a French distant cousin (relative finder) who belongs exactly to the same line. Seems quite old in Europe, I'd say at least since the Roman period.

----------


## Sile

> I have a French distant cousin (relative finder) who belongs exactly to the same line. Seems quite old in Europe, I'd say at least since the Roman period.


too date there does not seem to be many L3f1b..........according to data from torroni, behar and logan, from what I seen, there is about 95% in Europe, 1 in Dominican republic, 1 in Ethiopia and 1 in Tanzania 

Haplogroups L2a1, L3f1b, L3b, and L1b are the most
frequent (over 3%) sub-Saharan haplogroups in Libyans.
Haplogroup L2a1 is common and apparently scattered
throughout Africa (Salas et al., 2002), and therefore its
geographical origin is difficult to assess. However, L1b,
L3b, and L3f1b have more restricted locations in Africa.
These haplogroups, together with other minor lineages
in Libya such as L2b, L2c, L3d, and L3e have a typical
Western Africa distribution (Salas et al., 2002; Harich
et al., 2010). Nonetheless, other minor lineages present
in Libya such as L0a, L3h, and L3x are more frequent in
Eastern Africa. Such haplogroup frequency distribution
suggests a predominantly Western origin of L lineages in
Libya with some minor admixture of Eastern lineages.


do tell me the etruscan-libyan connection will raise its head again from 20 years ago?!

----------


## fla88

> yes
> 
> this
> 
> haplogroup Mutation mapper
> 
> and
> 
> 
> ...


after clicking on haplogroup mutation mapper, and then "get information for a person's haplogroup" , this list appears:

L3f1b defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


i3002025

189
A

i3002034
G
189
A

i3001999
C
1822
T

i3000737

8527
A

i3000790
T
8932
C

i3001017
A
11440
G

i5050027
A
11440
G

i3001319

14769
A

i3001320

14769
A

i3002605

14769
A

rs28357679

14769
A

i5049767

14769
A

i3001802

16292
C

i3001803

16292
C

i3001804
T
16292
C

L3f1 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


i3002257
T
5601
C

rs3134801
C
9950
T

i5049954
C
9950
T

L3f defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


i3002071
C
3396
T

i5049769
C
3396
T

i4000907
C
4218
T

i3001392
C
15514
T

i5049953

15514
T

i4001054
C
16209
T

L3b'f defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


L3 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


rs2853519
G
769
G

i3001949
G
769
G

i5049944

769
G

rs2856982

1018
G

i3001452
G
1018
G

L3'4 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


rs41473347

182
C

i3001445

182
C

rs2854134
C
3594
C

rs28625947
C
7256
C

rs2854123
C
13650
C

i5049924

13650
C

rs41458645

16278
C

i3001790
C
16278
C

L3'4'6 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


rs1117205
A
4104
A

i1000010
G
7521
G

i3001488
G
7521
G

L2'3'4'6 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


rs2857291

195
T

i3002066
T
195
T

rs41334645

247
G

i3001448

247
G

rs2853520
T
825
T

rs2853822

8655
C

i3002650
C
8655
C

rs2853488
G
10688
G

rs28358282
T
10810
T

i3000954
T
10810
T

rs2853501
A
13105
A

i5049946
A
13105
A

rs2857287
C
13506
C

rs28573847

15301
G

i3001523
A
15301
G

i5050460
A
15301
G

i4990110
G
16129
G

i3001531

16129
G

i3001605

16129
G

rs41534744

16129
G

i4000590
C
16187
C

i4000591
C
16187
C

rs28693675

16189
T

i4000587
T
16189
T

L2-6 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


i3001922
T
152
T

rs2856980
G
2758
G

rs2854130
T
2885
T

rs28546855
A
7146
A

rs1116907
C
8468
C

i3000730
C
8468
C

i5049841
C
8468
C

L1-6 defining mutations

variant
call
rCRS
anc


i3001869
T
146
T

rs41473347

182
C

i3001445

182
C

i3002160
C
4312
C

rs2854121
C
10664
C

rs2857285
T
10915
T

i5049974

10915
T

rs2853496
G
11914
G

i5049758
G
11914
G

rs2853502
A
13276
A

rs2853514
A
16230
A

----------


## fla88

Global similarity map:








And countries of origin:

----------


## Sile

> Global similarity map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And countries of origin:


Maps 1 and 2, show you are from Romagna or le Marche areas.
Map 3 = south tyrol or maybe east tyrol area.

Basically, you have no tuscan in any of the maps, even though you live there now. 

all the other data indicates you are more Italian to me, that is for longer period .

I have relatives in Lucca ( tuscany) the Benedetti's ( who moved from Rimini in Romagna a while ago )................email me privately* IF* you think you have relatives in that area ( I am in 23andme also). We might have some relatives. 

Going by all the black drops, you have been busy in organising some "relatives" in 23andme  :Smile:

----------


## kamani

anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..

----------


## Sile

> anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..


I don't know unless north italian only indicates NW Italy , i suspect its upside down and the sardinian was thrown in as a distant side marker.....maybe a programmers fantasy.
but Fla88 23andme conflict from where she currently could be....which is tuscany

 Uploaded with ImageShack.us

maybe 23andme gives data for only 500 years ago, no earlier or no later


EDIT: but I also have conflict with her appearing here

 Uploaded with ImageShack.us

----------


## Sile

> 


Mine shifted last week from below the 2 black drops to present

 Uploaded with ImageShack.us

so maybe you cannot use this map very much

----------


## Drac II

> Only in the sick, twisted world of anthrofora Iberians could the disinterested comment that the Moors "*might*" be responsible for "*some*" of the "African" markers in the Iberians be considered a provocative attack. (I am *not* in the habit of making definitive "pronouncements" about these matters absent compelling evidence, which, given the status of the resolution of ancient "and" modern mtDNA lineages is impossible, in my opinion.) 
> 
> By the way, are all these Spanish researchers also part of this vast anti-Iberian conspiracy? Is the owner of this website included? Have you taken a look at the map on this page? The only error I can find is the fact that certain papers on southern Italy were not included, although accessing the actual data from those papers might be difficult. 
> 
> Have you, for that matter, read the papers on autosomal European genetics of the last couple of years? How do you explain those results away? Do you have any self awareness at all? Is your paranoia limited to this topic or more generalized? If it is more generalized, there are medications that might be helpful. Unfortunately, there are no medicines for terminal racism, outright dishonesty, or lack of intellectual capacity.
> 
> Just for clarity, I'm one of those Tuscan posters who was engaged in the discussion upthread about how these markers got to Toscana. However, neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me into not analyzing and discussing similar data in any country, including Spain. 
> 
> All the same, my time for responding to illogical and biased posts is limited...I will investigate whether it is possible to block the comments you and your Iberian junta post from appearing when I log onto this site...it's a response I would recommend to others until and if the website administrators realize that it is posts like yours that offend new users like fla, and get this site black listed ...then intelligent people can conduct these discussions without being derailed and having their time wasted. 
> ...


It is not your posts about that "possibility" that I was referring to, even though some of them just reveal more about your fixation with the subject, even when the study/map in question contradicts such a possibility. Witness for example your bizarre claim regarding that map about skin pigmentation alleles which even shows Moroccans as having more of them than Andalusians, yet in your mind the "explanation" was very likely to be them pesky "Moors" having "darkened" Andalusians. How exactly did such a miracle happen when the modern descendants of those very "Moors" show a higher level of light skin pigmentation alleles than the population they supposedly "darkened" apparently did not occur to you.

Yes, I've seen many autosomal papers, but it's another topic than haplogroup markers, plus they don't quite exactly say what some people would like to hear either.

The person you are alluding to sometimes also shows some strange arguments himself regarding this subject, but unlike you he can take the criticism and sometimes even corrects his assumptions.

The only racism in display in these forums is in the posts by the likes of you and your pal Nobody1, always so eager to manipulate and spin around things that don't suit your agendas.

----------


## Drac II

> East Africa then.. Ethiopia? 
> 
> I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)


Yes, totally correct. Those are all perfectly valid possibilities, even though as you saw from a quoted paper about the genetics of the ancient Etruscans that possibility is very likely less plausible than other ones. It seems that something happened with the demographics of the territories inhabited by the Etruscans (mostly central Italy) after the decline of their civilization that brought more people with not only mtDNA L but also with more genetic similarity to Near Easterners.

----------


## Drac II

> You confused people on targeting Italians when the person was portuguese/brazilian, why ?


Huh? I never said that "Luis" fellow was Italian. I always thought he was Brazilian.

----------


## fla88

no wait, I'm not from Toscana..I'm from Liguria (Savona).. there 's higher percentage of L mDNA in Liguria and Toscana (that's why I was talking about Etruscans, even if I'm not from Toscana).

I don't know about any ancestors from Marche or Romagna. My maternal grandparents are from Liguria. My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto. My great grandparents were all from Liguria, Piemonte and Veneto. My DNA relatives in 23 and me are all from north of Italy.

----------


## fla88

Sile, I've sent you a private message

----------


## Angela

> anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..


I think the orientation is off. However, I also think it should only be used for a very rough approximation because it was done a very long time ago, and has just never been corrected now that they have so many more samples, and the process itself has been refined.

----------


## Angela

> no wait, I'm not from Toscana..I'm from Liguria (Savona).. there 's higher percentage of L mDNA in Liguria and Toscana (that's why I was talking about Etruscans, even if I'm not from Toscana).
> 
> I don't know about any ancestors from Marche or Romagna. My maternal grandparents are from Liguria. My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto. My great grandparents were all from Liguria, Piemonte and Veneto. My DNA relatives in 23 and me are all from north of Italy.


These PCA's have to do with *autosomal* DNA, not mtDNA. Your mtDNA is a very small percentage of your total genetic make-up, even if it may have important effects on health, etc. Therefore, it may, depending on the circumstances, have very little, in fact, to tell you about your total autosomal make-up. 

In addition, PCA's in general, given that they show only two dimensions, and capture less than half your autosomal variation, should only, in my opinion, be one tool for analyzing one's genetic relationship to other people. 

Also, this doesn't at all say you're from the Marche or, for goodness sakes, the Tyrol. What it does say is that your unique genetic signature, while it is definitely plotting in northern Italy as one would expect, is being pulled east of where one might expect you to be given that you say that most of your genetic ancestry is from northwestern Italy, unless that is incorrect? Take a look at the ancestry of all of your great grandparents and see what percentage is attributable to the Veneto. Of course, given the mysteries of recombination, the genetic signature doesn't always neatly match geographic percentages. Even siblings, through random inheritance, can plot somewhat differently

----------


## Sile

> I think the orientation is off. However, I also think it should only be used for a very rough approximation because it was done a very long time ago, and has just never been corrected now that they have so many more samples, and the process itself has been refined.


I wrote to 23andme about this issue...I await there reply.

----------


## Sile

> Sile, I've sent you a private message


ok

I know your cognomi and I started checking if we had relations via 1800-1820 registrars..........but Belluno province was austrian held those times so no chance.......except the southern area , see below ............I have ancestral surnames in those regions of northern belluno province ......not my surname, but these, colotto, olivotto, losso, toigo and cemin
http://www.antenati.san.benicultural...ia+di+Belluno/

I will take a quick look at your surname(s) 

It might take a few days

ciao

----------


## Sile

> These PCA's have to do with *autosomal* DNA, not mtDNA. Your mtDNA is a very small percentage of your total genetic make-up, even if it may have important effects on health, etc. Therefore, it may, depending on the circumstances, have very little, in fact, to tell you about your total autosomal make-up. 
> 
> In addition, PCA's in general, given that they show only two dimensions, and capture less than half your autosomal variation, should only, in my opinion, be one tool for analyzing one's genetic relationship to other people. 
> 
> Also, this doesn't at all say you're from the Marche or, for goodness sakes, the Tyrol. What it does say is that your unique genetic signature, while it is definitely plotting in northern Italy as one would expect, is being pulled east of where one might expect you to be given that you say that most of your genetic ancestry is from northwestern Italy, unless that is incorrect? Take a look at the ancestry of all of your great grandparents and see what percentage is attributable to the Veneto. Of course, given the mysteries of recombination, the genetic signature doesn't always neatly match geographic percentages. Even siblings, through random inheritance, can plot somewhat differently


yes, its pulling east, away from tuscany and liguria.....as stated to me by 23andme person, from marche to the tyrol ( they even incorporate trieste, cadore di piave areas) . The NW spot/corner is le marche

I agree with you, ALL these maps lack accuracy AND they change on a regular basis, so they should not be a long term answer . My 3 maps have changed 3 times since December 2013.

----------


## fla88

I know that my paternal grandfather was from Belluno (Feltre, precisely), and his family was from Veneto by generations

----------


## Angela

> I know that my paternal grandfather was from Belluno (Feltre, precisely), and his family was from Veneto by generations


That's only 25% of your ancestry, but, as I said, inheritance and recombination are random. By the time you reach the great grandparent level, you might inherit a great deal from one of them, and nothing from another. If you search within 23andme, you will find some nice explanations of how this works...you don't necessarily get a neat one fourth of your ancestry from one grandparent each. It doesn't work like that.

----------


## fla88

I've got prof. McDonald's results.

Most likely fit is 24.7% (+- 13.0%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 75.3% (+- 13.0%) Europe (all Southern Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
 French= 0.278 Tuscan= 0.722 or
 English= 0.198 Tuscan= 0.802 or
 Irish= 0.164 Tuscan= 0.836 or
 Germany= 0.185 Tuscan= 0.815 or
Lithuania= 0.129 Tuscan= 0.871 or
 Poland= 0.154 Tuscan= 0.846 or
 Hungary= 0.237 Tuscan= 0.763 or
 Belorus= 0.153 Tuscan= 0.847 or
 Spain= 0.421 Tuscan= 0.579 or
 French= 0.550 Sicily= 0.450

And this is likely correct, i.e. essentially Italian. That accounts for the
large but “weak” Mideast on the chromosomes.

----------


## Sile

> I've got prof. McDonald's results.
> 
> Most likely fit is 24.7% (+- 13.0%) Europe (various subcontinents)
> and 75.3% (+- 13.0%) Europe (all Southern Europe)
> which is 100% total Europe
> 
> The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
> most likely at the top
>  French= 0.278 Tuscan= 0.722 or
> ...


As McDonald stated to me ...........if you are 100% european, your line has been somewhere in Europe from over 2100 years ago.

He also stated, 
Italian is north italian in his splits, while tuscan is central and south italian

your X- chromosone in regards to middle-east is all on the maternal , a little bit by the maternal,paternal part, but the rest is maternal maternal side

you have far more charts than what I got from Doug

----------


## Sile

mine as to compare and i am 100% european ....................even though you have many more non-european lines on your bars, it would seem you crossed into Europe slightly later than me but still over 2100 years ago.


 Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 Uploaded with ImageShack.us

----------


## Vallicanus

It has to be said that Boattini's recent survey on Italian uniparental markers found ZERO mtdna L in Tuscany and ZERO for the whole of Italy.

----------


## Sile

> It has to be said that Boattini's recent survey on Italian uniparental markers found ZERO mtdna L in Tuscany and ZERO for the whole of Italy.


maybe, but *Francesca Brisighelli*  recent revamped 2013 paper found
1% in south Italy
1% in central Italy and
2% in northern Italy

but scholars state L ( maybe L3 ) arrived in southern portugal in the Epipaleolithic period, ~8000, followed by a catalan/valencia area ( chalcolithic ~5000 period)

Catalans and ligurians where very much tied to each other until alfonso V period, plus you have catalans traveling to italy ( back and forth ) via france for a long period of time

----------


## Vallicanus

> maybe, but *Francesca Brisighelli*  recent revamped 2013 paper found
> 1% in south Italy
> 1% in central Italy and
> 2% in northern Italy


Very interesting!

Do you have the *link*, thanks.

----------


## Knovas

> maybe, but *Francesca Brisighelli*  recent revamped 2013 paper found
> 1% in south Italy
> 1% in central Italy and
> 2% in northern Italy
> 
> but scholars state L ( maybe L3 ) arrived in southern portugal in the Epipaleolithic period, ~8000, followed by a catalan/valencia area ( chalcolithic ~5000 period)
> 
> Catalans and ligurians where very much tied to each other until alfonso V period, plus you have catalans traveling to italy ( back and forth ) via france for a long period of time


Even if L is an ancient marker in Iberia (it is well known at this point that a couple of samples were found in Navarre, none of them L3), it is more likely that most L clades found across Europe were brought by women slaves recruited by the Romans. They also travelled back and forth to many places.

You basically say it spread in relatively recent times from Iberia. I don't see any Catalan "responsability" regarding the L figures for Tuscany or North Italy, nor the other way around (¿How about this possibility? ¬¬)

The available data does not support your point. Ancient L samples in Iberia were L2 (confirmed results), not the type we're dealing with right now.

----------


## Nobody1

> mtDNA L is actually quite low in Sicily much like the Mediterranean (Italian/Crete/Cypriot) range/average of 1%-3%; 
> In contrast to the higher Atlantic Spain and Portugal;
> 
> *Sicily -*
> Sicily [106 samples / Cali et al 2003] = 0.9%
> Sicily [105 samples / Achilli et al 2007] = 1.9%
> Sicily [169 samples / Plaza et al 2003] = 0.6%
> 
> *Italy -*
> ...


To add to this:
mtDNA L was also tested in other places:

Veneto (NE Italy) = 0.0% 
[68 samples / Mogantale-Profizi et al 2001]
Campania (S Italy) = 0.3% 
[313 samples / Achilli et al 2007]
Alpine (Lessinia/Sappada/Sauris/Timau) = 0.0% 
[193 samples / Capocasa et al 2013]

Madeira (Portugal) = 12.9% 
[155 samples / Brehm et al 2003]
West Andalusia (Spain) = 5.7% 
[158 samples / Hernandez et al 2014]

The Balearic Islands are as Mediterranean islands in the Mediterranean range of 1%-3% [2.2% 231 samples / Picornell et al 2005] distancing from the higher mtDNA L results of the South Atlantic facade (Morocco/Spain/Portugal);

----------


## Vallicanus

> Very interesting!
> 
> Do you have the *link*, thanks.



I found the link.

It's intriguing that Northern Italy has more mtdna L than Central or Southern Italy according to Brisighelli's revised work.

----------


## Knovas

> To add to this:
> mtDNA L was also tested in other places:
> 
> Veneto (NE Italy) = 0.0% 
> [68 samples / Mogantale-Profizi et al 2001]
> Campania (S Italy) = 0.3% 
> [313 samples / Achilli et al 2007]
> Alpine (Lessinia/Sappada/Sauris/Timau) = 0.0% 
> [193 samples / Capocasa et al 2013]
> ...


Add also this then:


Spain -

Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0%

(Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%

Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%

Lopez-Parra et al. 2009 (Pyrenaic regions) [233 samples] = 0%


Italy -

Semino et al. 1989 (Sicily) [49 samples]: 4.40%

Plaza et al. 2003 (Southern Italy) [37 samples]: 8.1%

Brisighelli et al. 2012 (NW Italy) [100 samples]: 2%

Achilli et al 2007 Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 2.90%

Achilli et al 2007 Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 2.63%


Nice that you don't even hide your agenda lumping Spain, Portugal and Morocco together. Nice that you mention Madeira with its particular history for your purposes (simillar as using the Canary Islands or the Azores as you already did when you used to call yourself Wormhole). And even better what you do mentioning only one part of the Hernandez et al 2014 study (West Andalusia, which is indeed not Western Andalusia as a whole region, but Huelva) misteriously forgetting East Andalusia (Granada - 0.83% L), where your beloved "Moors" lasted for the longest period.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...ights-w-e.html

In short, nice way to confirm what you really are ;)

----------


## fla88

> As McDonald stated to me ...........if you are 100% european, your line has been somewhere in Europe from over 2100 years ago.
> 
> He also stated, 
> Italian is north italian in his splits, while tuscan is central and south italian
> 
> your X- chromosone in regards to middle-east is all on the maternal , a little bit by the maternal,paternal part, but the rest is maternal maternal side
> 
> you have far more charts than what I got from Doug


that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy...  :Petrified: 
actually I'm not, and by generations.

----------


## Knovas

> that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy... 
> actually I'm not, and by generations.


Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.

----------


## Drac II

> Add also this then:
> 
> 
> Spain -
> 
> Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0%
> 
> (Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%
> 
> ...


Indeed. I have been exposing him and his manipulations/spin-doctoring since his first posts in these forums (after "Wormhole" got permanently banned for rampant racism, a user that strangely enough had very similar worries and agendas) which "coincidentally" were on this very topic of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously deeply bothers him when it comes to Italy.

----------


## fla88

> Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.


Probabily not northern enough to be compared to a guy from Lombardia, but northern enough to be what I am: Ligurian. Where can I find national and regional avereges?

----------


## fla88

This is what McDonald told me about my mtDNA:

"It was LONG ago. African slave. Its possible to have L3 mtDNA and in fact REALLY be 100.0000% European on the autosomes, X and Y. "

I asked him: could it be brought by Etruscans as well?

he answered: 

"Sure ... but they got it the same way ... from North Africa.

EVERY population around the Mediterranean has all kinds of common non-Pygmy, non-Bushman

mtDNA and Y-DNA in small amounts."

----------


## Sile

> Even if L is an ancient marker in Iberia (it is well known at this point that a couple of samples were found in Navarre, none of them L3), it is more likely that most L clades found across Europe were brought by women slaves recruited by the Romans. They also travelled back and forth to many places.
> 
> You basically say it spread in relatively recent times from Iberia. I don't see any Catalan "responsability" regarding the L figures for Tuscany or North Italy, nor the other way around (¿How about this possibility? ¬¬)
> 
> The available data does not support your point. Ancient L samples in Iberia were L2 (confirmed results), not the type we're dealing with right now.


I am saying that L figures in iberia in those very ancient period, as for L3f, as per many papers states, it originates in the upper Nile, went to the levant and liby-phoenician area could even be Greek Cyrene area. But as she is "marked" as 100% european, she then was in modern Europe somewhere. There are ancient greek and Phoenician settlements in Iberia/catalonia area, as well as France, corsica sicily etc............clearly we can only say that her marker was outside of Europe later than 100BC.

I never seen these confirmed L2, but if you say so V, then I believe you

----------


## Sile

> Doug gives you different sums of populations to describe your genome. The little French, Lithuanian, Poland, etc. that you get, is actually telling that you are more "Northern" than Southern Italians (tagged as Tuscans there), even though I suspect you don't exactly fit with other North Italians. You probably slightly deviate towards south for whatever reason. Try to test your genome in more detail using calculators and compare against national and regional averages.


Her Northern part most likely derives from her paternal side only, ................as she stated , they are from Belluno , which is the most northern of the 7 provinces of the Veneto region. Belluno is a town and also a large province bordering Austria

----------


## Sile

> http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...ights-w-e.html
> 
> In short, nice way to confirm what you really are ;)


Do you trust Maju ?
He is basque , while his mother is from Veneto

He knows about Iberian genetics

----------


## Angela

> that means that according to McDonald I'm from central or south of Italy... 
> actually I'm not, and by generations.


I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.

----------


## fla88

> I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.


I didn't know that..people always told me that he was some sort of genious in genetics  :Disappointed:

----------


## fla88

> Her Northern part most likely derives from her paternal side only, ................as she stated , they are from Belluno , which is the most northern of the 7 provinces of the Veneto region. Belluno is a town and also a large province bordering Austria


I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.

----------


## Sile

> I wouldn't necessarily take Professor McDonald's analyses as the final word in these matters, or even as a particularly informative word, and especially when you are looking at the results of southern Europeans. He is the creator of the autosomal analysis program used by FTDNA (Population Finder), which gives highly questionable results, in my opinion, to put it as politely as I can.


he was with Ftdna in its initial format of PF, never completed it and they (ftdna) have changed his format as he left years ago.............which is why its still in Beta format........do not rely on PF from ftdna.

He is with BGA

----------


## Knovas

> I never seen these confirmed L2, but if you say so V, then I believe you


There you are the samples listed: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

As you can see there are two possible L3 results, but these are unlikely to be confirmed.




> Do you trust Maju ?


I don't know him enough, I know some people don't like this guy, including Dienekes'. Anyway, I just wanted to focus on the data of the study that some individuals can't remember.

----------


## Sile

> I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.


It matters little in genetics, example
me, my father and grandfather have all different shades of green eyes, yet my grandfather has chestnut coloured hair, my father black ( not dark brown ) and I had dark blonde.
My sons both have pale to mid blue eyes, one is black haired and other is dark blonde..............

my mother and sister both have hazel eyes, both black hair ...........I am not saying dark brown, but black


Try the free 
gedmatch.com

It is very handy in checking your admixtures and see where you are from, it has a triangulation method of people with similar genetics as it uses every persons data from every genetic company that they tested. It has many nice programs

----------


## Knovas

> Probabily not northern enough to be compared to a guy from Lombardia, but northern enough to be what I am: Ligurian. Where can I find national and regional avereges?


Join Gedmatch: http://gedmatch.com/

Upload your raw data and start calculating your genome with the different tests available.

To check the averages, I think only Dodecad provides the info. Have a look at the site: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/

----------


## fla88

I tried many calculators and the results are very different ..
I'd like to try "triangulation" and "one to many matches" but I couldn't because it appears my kit has not completed batch processing (I don't know what that means)

----------


## Angela

> he was with Ftdna in its initial format of PF, never completed it and they (ftdna) have changed his format as he left years ago.............which is why its still in Beta format........do not rely on PF from ftdna.
> 
> He is with BGA




Yes, I know. 

As we have previously discussed, I don't share your high opinion of his work. BGA is only marginally better than PF so far as I can see, but to each their own.

From my point of view, there are still not enough reference populations, (I mean, really, only a few people from Bergamo and Tuscan samples for a country with the highest regional diversity in Europe? And using Ashkenazi Jews as a Middle Eastern reference population, with all their European admixture?) his explanations are about as clear as mud when they aren't completely simplistic, he is seriously lacking in knowledge of archaeology, history or population movements in Europe, and given the results, his algorithm is still obviously faulty. The good professor, with all due respect, is a professor of chemistry, not genetics, and certainly not population genetics.

If someone wants an analysis of their autosomal make-up, I only recommend 23and me. 

I used to highly recommend the calculators produced by Dienekes, and they still have their uses, especially for comparisons with other members of one's ethnic group, but as we've discovered through the work of population geneticists of the highest caliber recently, they're of very limited usefulness in terms of actual ancestry and the population movements which created the autsomal signature of one's area. You need to have followed the entire development of this method in order to really understand what those components do and not mean...as Dienekes himself pointed out, to his credit, particularly as time went on. 

A well done IBD analysis is also very informative. 

In terms of cutting edge population genetics, you can't go wrong with anything from the Reich group at Harvard, and I think the work done by Ralph and Coop on IBD analysis is also very impressive.

----------


## Angela

> I think so too. But curiously my mom and my grandmother look northerner ..blond hair and blue eyes.. while my father looks Italian..dark eyes and dark hair.



I know you don't need me to tell you that there are a variety of "Italian" looks.

And, for what these kinds of studies are worth...
http://img.readtiger.com/wkp/en/Blond_hair_Italy.gif

So, no surprise as far as the phenotype of the Ligurian members of your family is concerned. 

Also, for what it's worth, you should know that contrary to everything you've ever been taught, Ligurians are not quite northern Italian in the mind of some people...apparently you have to eat all of your food covered in speck to qualify. Also, be prepared for judgments by people who have either never been there, or went on a group tour for two weeks! LOL! And you'll be treated to some novel pronouncements on Italian history by people who've never studied it either...just try to keep a sense of humor about it all, as difficult as it may sometimes be...

Now that I know someone from Liguria is on the site, and would likely be interested, I'm going to start threads on both the anthropology and the archaeology and culture of this and neighboring affiliated areas for some of the materials I have gathered. 

I've also posted about the McDonald results and the various calculators in my response to Sile. (Post #120)

----------


## fla88

> I know you don't need me to tell you that there are a variety of "Italian" looks.
> 
> And, for what these kinds of studies are worth...
> http://img.readtiger.com/wkp/en/Blond_hair_Italy.gif
> 
> So, no surprise as far as the phenotype of the Ligurian members of your family is concerned. 
> 
> Also, for what it's worth, you should know that contrary to everything you've ever been taught, Ligurians are not quite northern Italian in the mind of some people...apparently you have to eat all of your food covered in speck to qualify. Also, be prepared for judgments by people who have either never been there, or went on a group tour for two weeks! LOL! And you'll be treated to some novel pronouncements on Italian history by people who've never studied it either...just try to keep a sense of humor about it all, as difficult as it may sometimes be...
> 
> ...


lol I know about this kind of discrimination.. I don't mind :)

in which section are you posting the threads? I'm interested.


do you know why I can't use the "one to many" option? it says my kit has not completed batch processing

----------


## Sile

> Yes, I know. 
> 
> As we have previously discussed, I don't share your high opinion of his work. BGA is only marginally better than PF so far as I can see, but to each their own.
> 
> From my point of view, there are still not enough reference populations, (I mean, really, only a few people from Bergamo and Tuscan samples for a country with the highest regional diversity in Europe? And using Ashkenazi Jews as a Middle Eastern reference population, with all their European admixture?) his explanations are about as clear as mud when they aren't completely simplistic, he is seriously lacking in knowledge of archaeology, history or population movements in Europe, and given the results, his algorithm is still obviously faulty. The good professor, with all due respect, is a professor of chemistry, not genetics, and certainly not population genetics.
> 
> If someone wants an analysis of their autosomal make-up, I only recommend 23and me. 
> 
> I used to highly recommend the calculators produced by Dienekes, and they still have their uses, especially for comparisons with other members of one's ethnic group, but as we've discovered through the work of population geneticists of the highest caliber recently, they're of very limited usefulness in terms of actual ancestry and the population movements which created the autsomal signature of one's area. You need to have followed the entire development of this method in order to really understand what those components do and not mean...as Dienekes himself pointed out, to his credit, particularly as time went on. 
> ...


you clearly know more about autosomal than me, but its a bit much to claim 23andme are the best at telling us who a north-italian is or tuscan or anyone else in Italy when they have only 13 samples of North-italians
Population
Source
Sample Size

Italy
23andMe
556

Italy
1000 Genomes
98

North Italian
HGDP
13

Tuscan
HGDP
8



clearly Gedmatch stands head and shoulders above 23andme who I find very much lacking in regards to auDna splits

----------


## Sile

mtDna *L3f* is a very fascinating marker, I have read many of the professional papers on this marker recently and its origins vary greatly, a lot of times its even called Eurasian or even Pannonian. 
I think a person such a *MACIANO* can clear up this marker for us after deciphering the many many papers on it by these genetic scholars

----------


## Sile

> I tried many calculators and the results are very different ..
> I'd like to try "triangulation" and "one to many matches" but I couldn't because it appears my kit has not completed batch processing (I don't know what that means)


I have 2 accounts in gedmatch ,
1 - an ftDna account which took 1 day to load, and a
2- 23andme account which took 4 days to load

I guess you need to wait

----------


## Angela

> you clearly know more about autosomal than me, but its a bit much to claim 23andme are the best at telling us who a north-italian is or tuscan or anyone else in Italy when they have only 13 samples of North-italians
> Population
> Source
> Sample Size
> 
> Italy
> 23andMe
> 556
> 
> ...



I don't mean to be difficult or offensive in any way, but I really don't understand your point here...

23andme uses *ALL* the publicly available autosomal research data sets for its analysis; that means it uses the HGDP data set, but it uses many others as well, including the many other Tuscan data sets, as just one example. In addition, it uses the data of all of its members with four grandparents from Italy, by region. So, it has the data of people with ancestry from southern Italy, Liguria, the Veneto and on and on as part of its data base. 

The fact that it is continually adding to its data base as more people submit their samples is the reason that the results keep changing...as more people add their data, the results become more and more precise. Of course, lots of data can only do so much...the algorithm has to be good as well. If you haven't yet looked at it, you should read the White Paper where the 23andme scientists explain it...it's very impressive I think...no one else is doing anything like it...

As to your comment about Gedmatch, I also find that confusing. Gedmatch has provided versions of calculators created by a number of hobbyists, including Dienekes. The hobbyists differ in the number of publicly available data sets that they use. To my knowledge, Dienekes is the only one who uses all of the publicly available autosomal data sets for Italians, and, in addition, like 23andme, he has access to the autosomal data of Italians from areas that have not been sampled in research studies. Then, of course, it all depends on whether you trust the objectivity and the competence of these analysts. I don't trust some of their results at all. 

In terms of the other tools available at gedmatch, yes, people can compare themselves to other people who have made their data available, etc. However, whether most people who are using these tools have any idea what they're doing, or how to interpret the results...well, let's say that I am highly skeptical, and leave it at that.

----------


## kamani

> This is what McDonald told me about my mtDNA:
> 
> "It was LONG ago. African slave. Its possible to have L3 mtDNA and in fact REALLY be 100.0000% European on the autosomes, X and Y. "


I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.

----------


## Sile

> I don't mean to be difficult or offensive in any way, but I really don't understand your point here...
> 
> 23andme uses *ALL* the publicly available autosomal research data sets for its analysis; that means it uses the HGDP data set, but it uses many others as well, including the many other Tuscan data sets, as just one example. In addition, it uses the data of all of its members with four grandparents from Italy, by region. So, it has the data of people with ancestry from southern Italy, Liguria, the Veneto and on and on as part of its data base. 
> 
> The fact that it is continually adding to its data base as more people submit their samples is the reason that the results keep changing...as more people add their data, the results become more and more precise. Of course, lots of data can only do so much...the algorithm has to be good as well. If you haven't yet looked at it, you should read the White Paper where the 23andme scientists explain it...it's very impressive I think...no one else is doing anything like it...
> 
> As to your comment about Gedmatch, I also find that confusing. Gedmatch has provided versions of calculators created by a number of hobbyists, including Dienekes. The hobbyists differ in the number of publicly available data sets that they use. To my knowledge, Dienekes is the only one who uses all of the publicly available autosomal data sets for Italians, and, in addition, like 23andme, he has access to the autosomal data of Italians from areas that have not been sampled in research studies. Then, of course, it all depends on whether you trust the objectivity and the competence of these analysts. I don't trust some of their results at all. 
> 
> In terms of the other tools available at gedmatch, yes, people can compare themselves to other people who have made their data available, etc. However, whether most people who are using these tools have any idea what they're doing, or how to interpret the results...well, let's say that I am highly skeptical, and leave it at that.


Pardon? , yes it uses only those stated, it does not use ftdna, while gedmatch does, it does not use ancestry, which gedmatch does. it uses only what it states.

what this below mean from 23andme ancestry composition?

Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide.
The analysis includes DNA you received from all of your ancestors, on both sides of your family. 
The results reflect where your ancestors lived 500 years ago, before ocean-crossing ships and airplanes came on the scene. 



Italian
The peninsula of Italy is home to a genetic legacy not only of the Roman Empire, 
but also of groups from both northern Europe and the eastern Mediterranean
that occupied Italy at various points in its history.

Population
Source
Sample Size

Italy
23andMe
556

Italy
1000 Genomes
98

North Italian
HGDP
13

Tuscan
HGDP
8


hide details




French & German
Connected to the British Isles, Scandinavia, southern Europe and eastern Europe, 
France and Germany have seen myriad peoples come and go over the last ten thousand years.
Genetically and geographically the French and Germans are at the heart of Europe.


Population
Source
Sample Size

Germany
23andMe
367

Netherlands
23andMe
207

France
23andMe
200

Switzerland
23andMe
87

Belgium
23andMe
80

Austria
23andMe
54

France
HGDP
29


hide details


I agree it adds to its data , but uses only these numbers above as listed on its site.....yes it adds numbers , like switzerland went from 77 in November 2013 to 87 now

Where does it say it uses more that what is noted on its site?

yes Gedmatch uses admixture settings created by dodecad, eurogenes, MdLP etc ( dodecad only had 5 north-italian samples ) and adds the numbers from every genetic testing company of the people that join Gedmatch. it will add 23andme, ftdna, ancestry , genomes etc and then uses their formula from the selected creator,

example, say you choose Eurogenes K13 ........so while eurogenes might have 50 north-italian in their data for their initial test, gedmatch will add all the other north-italian data from every other testing company into the mix and use the eurogenes formula to give you a result.............so you answer will not be from 50 NI, but many many more.

Using far more people from different testing companies, which is why, gedmatch gives me 5 times more matches , than ftdna and 23andme combined. 5 times more matches means more people's data is used to determine the final result 

BTW, dienekes which is dodecad uses only 5 north-italian samples as i tried to enter my data numbers ( and I qualify) and was told its closed and is set as 5 in number

----------


## Sile

> I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.


Doug does not say, her marker was in Italy that long ago ( from Roman times ), but says her marker was in Europe that long ago.
Her family could have only arrived in Italy from Ukraine, as an example, only 300 years ago, or france or belgium

----------


## fla88

> mtDna *L3f* is a very fascinating marker, I have read many of the professional papers on this marker recently and its origins vary greatly, a lot of times its even called Eurasian or even Pannonian. 
> I think a person such a *MACIANO* can clear up this marker for us after deciphering the many many papers on it by these genetic scholars


I read somewhere about L3 Eurasian origin theory.. or just asian origin sometimes..I found also this http://racialreality.blogspot.it/201...t-african.html
Is Maciano going to post here?

----------


## fla88

> I have 2 accounts in gedmatch ,
> 1 - an ftDna account which took 1 day to load, and a
> 2- 23andme account which took 4 days to load
> 
> I guess you need to wait


I loaded my data 1 month ago :/

----------


## Sile

> I loaded my data 1 month ago :/


email
John Olson , he is 1 of 2 that run Gedmatch

let me know if you cannot find his email.........he has always replied to me inside 48 hours

*
If you are still experiencing issues after having read the FAQ, please contact us at [email protected]. Please remember we're just a couple of overworked volunteers, and we may not be able to respond to your query in a timely fashion.*

----------


## Sile

> I read somewhere about L3 Eurasian origin theory.. or just asian origin sometimes..I found also this http://racialreality.blogspot.it/201...t-african.html
> Is Maciano going to post here?


Maciano runs this site

----------


## fla88

> I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.


it affects physical and mental traits? O_O

----------


## fla88

> email
> John Olson , he is 1 or 2 that run Gedmatch
> 
> let me know if you cannot find his email.........he has always replied to me inside 48 hours
> 
> 
> If you are still experiencing issues after having read the FAQ, please contact us at [email protected]. Please remember we're just a couple of overworked volunteers, and we may not be able to respond to your query in a timely fashion.



Ok thanks, I'll try to contact him :)

----------


## kamani

> it affects physical and mental traits? O_O


it certainly affects something in the body, but nobody knows what yet (to my knowledge). Do you like hipop, watermelon and chicken? (joke)

----------


## fla88

> it certainly affects something in the body, but nobody knows what yet (to my knowledge). Do you like hipop, watermelon and chicken? (joke)


lol I haven't African admixture as far as I know.. I feel ok..I mean, normal lol

----------


## Sile

this might be already linked

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/3/915.full

----------


## kamani

A slight possibility is that mtdna L might be paleolithic in the Ligurian coast (40000 BC). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimaldi_Man.

----------


## fla88

Very interesting possibilities... 
I've also read that most of Ligurians allied with Carthaginians against the Romans

----------


## Angela

> Very interesting possibilities... 
> I've also read that most of Ligurians allied with Carthaginians against the Romans



True ...a very bad decision as things turned out. However, mtDNA can only be passed by women. I doubt that the Carthaginians would have made very many of their own women trudge over the Alps on campaign. Even most of the troops were either Spaniards or men from Gaul.

Since you don't seem to have been turned off from this site, I just want to clear up what are, in my opinion, some incorrect assertions that have been made on this thread. 

Neither Doug McDonald nor anyone else can tell you when your particular branch of mtDNA "L" arrived in Italy or Europe as the case may be. If you were very lucky indeed, and some geneticist found it in some archaeologically datable area, and then some much more detailed analysis of it was done, you might get a reasonably accurate idea. 

Absent that kind of data, one way to get something of a handle on the more reasonable *speculations* is to look at the date assigned to your particular mutation. Now, something may be published tomorrow about mutation rates for mtDNA which would change all this, but until then, I think the best source for dating for mtDNA is Doron Behar's A Copernican Reassessment of the Human Mitochondrial DNA Tree from its Root. 

It can be found here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/

The ages by mtdna mutation can be found in the Supplement. On page 30 of the supplement I found your particular mtDNA clade. It is dated to 11,358 years ago with a Standard Deviation of 3274.

That puts it right around the pre-Neolithic or Neolithic. Many mtDNA lineages expanded around that time, and these expansions are probably related to the agricultural revolution. 

Given that the agricultural revolution didn't reach East Africa until quite a bit later, I think it's probably a good guess that the mutation did not occur there, but rather might have occurred in the Near East or North Africa at that time.

Now, there are many *possibilities* for when the various "L" lineages might have arrived:

During the latter part of the Mesolithic.

During the Neolithic with the Cardial peoples who first brought agriculture to the Ligurian coast.

Later Neolithic peoples from LBK derived groups.

Bronze Age people by way of Greek colonists, although the most that I can find for Genova is a small trading post. Of course, they had a much bigger presence, an actual colony, in Massalia, and as you know the border there in western Liguria/Provence has always been very fluid, and people could have migrated down the coast.

Then there is the possibility that a slave, or wife, for that matter, from the Near East or North Africa brought it to Liguria during the Roman era. I think this is slightly less likely because as you also know this was hardly a place that was suitable for the latifundia system. A house slave might have brought it, of course, and have had a number of very healthy and lucky descendents. 

The early Middle Ages, when Saracens from Spain settled the area from Provence all the way into the Alps of Switzerland, is also a possibility, especially given that they were not just raiders...there are actually some attested settlements.

In the later Middle Ages Genova played an extremely important role in the Crusades, as you know. Eastern rite Christian women might have been brought home as wives, Muslim women in bondage etc. Also, the Knights of St. John, as well as battling the infidel in the Mediterranean, engaged in a very profitable slave trade of their own, and a slave woman from North Africa might have wound up in Liguria. 

So, you're spoilt for choice here...take your pick.

Just a word about all the studies thrown against the wall on this thread to see what would stick. Not all studies are equal. Just as an example, two studies on Italian DNA were bandied about, Brisighelli et al and Boattini et al. There is no comparison in terms of quality in my opinion. The university group that produced the Brisighelli paper is notoriously sloppy in its work, as was proved once again when they had to revise the paper long after publication (you might well ask what peer review is supposed to be about) and aeons behind the times in terms of their methodology. (the level of resolution is shamefully low, and they are actually, in an era where others are using 500,000 snps to do autosomal analysis, they are using a few AIMS!) Boattini et al is a level above, in terms of resolution, but also in terms of their sampling technique. Every researcher of Italian DNA should use it, in my opinion. So, each study has to be evaluated for its reliability, and not for whether it supports or doesn't support any pet theory.

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## Sile

> So, you're spoilt for choice here...take your pick.
> 
> Just a word about all the studies thrown against the wall on this thread to see what would stick. Not all studies are equal. Just as an example, two studies on Italian DNA were bandied about, Brisighelli et al and Boattini et al. There is no comparison in terms of quality in my opinion. The university group that produced the Brisighelli paper is notoriously sloppy in its work, as was proved once again when they had to revise the paper long after publication (you might well ask what peer review is supposed to be about) and aeons behind the times in terms of their methodology. (the level of resolution is shamefully low, and they are actually, in an era where others are using 500,000 snps to do autosomal analysis, they are using a few AIMS!) Boattini et al is a level above, in terms of resolution, but also in terms of their sampling technique. Every researcher of Italian DNA should use it, in my opinion. So, each study has to be evaluated for its reliability, and not for whether it supports or doesn't support any pet theory.


I agree with you on the quality of papers, and I find it astonishing that the Spanish and Italian testers from the Uni of Oxford, England has again withdrawn their Brisighelli paper after PLOS people failed to make all the changes.
But the Boattini paper lacks some elements, for one, the lack of ydna testing from Aviano, Friuli when mtdna was tested there and the lack of any testing from the Trentino and alto-adige areas.......we have to rely on Cioa 2013 two test papers for any information on these areas ...............and those papers showed some "exotic" markers which IMO, Boattini would have failed to "fit" in their paper. 

As for Fla88, BGA and 23andme has noted her 100% European, so her mothers, mothers, mothers etc etc would have been somewhere in Europe from over 2000 years ago. And yes her line could have been a Greek descent from the greek town of Marseilles or others in the area...........we will never know.

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## fla88

Thank you all for your comments.. there are all plausible options and it's not easy to pick one :)
Is there any test that can help you discover more about mtDNA?

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## Vallicanus

Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.

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## joeyc

Wrong map under many aspects. Some correction for Italy.

Italy, Campania 0.32% LItaly, Apula-Calabria 0% L
Italy, Piedmont 0% L

Source Ottoni et al. 2011

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## oriental

L3 mtDna accompanied E yDna. y Dna Haplogroups C, I, G and E were in Europe before Ria and R1b. When Rib conquered France and Spain these indigenous Europeans I, G, and E either escaped to the mountainous areas or towards the Mediterranean Coasts. Your ancestors were from mountains so you could be from those ancient mountain refugees.

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## joeyc

> Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.


That's true. Indeed they have not found a single L haplotype in about 865 samples. Maciamo should add that to the map.

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## fla88

> Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.


I'm the only one then :/

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## JackBlack

> what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?


There's nothing wrong with haplogroup L if you are of African decent.

However, for YOU, haplogroup L is a mismatch in several ways such as...

1 It does not match your autosomal DNA!
2 It does not match your physical appearance!
3 It does not match your nationality!
4 It does not match your genealogy! 
5 It does not match your race!

It bothers me to read about a good looking White woman with 99 to 100% European autosomal DNA being labeled with an alien mt haplogroup to which there is NO explanation for. My opinion is that there should be a statute of limitations on alien mt DNA that does not match at all, (like 0%) the autosomal DNA of that person.

It cases like this that reinforce my opposition to interracial unions. more specifically, the assimilation of the half non-White children who are of the same gender of the non-White parent.

Sorry for the rant.

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## Angela

> There's nothing wrong with haplogroup L if you are of African decent.
> 
> However, for YOU, haplogroup L is a mismatch in several ways such as...
> 
> 1 It does not match your autosomal DNA!
> 2 It does not match your physical appearance!
> 3 It does not match your nationality!
> 4 It does not match your genealogy! 
> 5 It does not match your race!
> ...


Sorry, but there's no excuse for racist ideology or racist rants.

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## Angela

One study cannot stand as the last word on the distribution of any haplotype anywhere. Has anyone ever heard of the novel concept of "averaging"?

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## Sile

> I'm the only one then :/


We have family links between ourselves ( if you are one of these ) via marriages between the Cemin-Corso and Pelzer families...............period close to 1700

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## JackBlack

> L3 mtDna accompanied E yDna. y Dna Haplogroups C, I, G and E were in Europe before Ria and R1b. When Rib conquered France and Spain these indigenous Europeans I, G, and E either escaped to the mountainous areas or towards the Mediterranean Coasts. Your ancestors were from mountains so you could be from those ancient mountain refugees.


Y haplogroups I, G and 1b1b (NOT E1b1a) are European, But Y haplogroup C??? Y haplogoup C is native to Asia and the Americas, not Europe. Your suggesting that haplogroup more native to Europe than R1b????

Were did R1b originate from according to you, outer space????? My BS detector is going off here.

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## oriental

Jackblack is a comedian and needs to keep up. La Brana has been discussed in eupedia a year ago or more.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot...are-y-dna.html

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## Sile

> Y haplogroups I, G and 1b1b (NOT E1b1a) are European, But Y haplogroup C??? Y haplogoup C is native to Asia and the Americas, not Europe. Your suggesting that haplogroup more native to Europe than R1b????
> 
> Were did R1b originate from according to you, outer space????? My BS detector is going off here.


as per Karafet june 2014 paper, basal R-M207 is south-east asia along with its parent P

If we need to note what R is european then note a subclade and not just R1a or R1b

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## joeyc

The Tuscans samples used for this map come from 3 single villages from a study about Etruscan DNA. Boattini et al. found 0 mtdna L in Tuscany.

Sarno et al. found 0.64% of L, 0% for mainland South Italy (Calabria, Apulia and Lucania) and 1.1% for Sicily.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0096074.s005

The same study found 1.53% of E-M81 for South Italy+Sicily, 0.91% for South Italy and 1.27% for Sicily.

The only E-M81 found in South Italy out of 110 samples comes from Cosenza, Calabria.

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## Hauteville

Indeed even the deep south Italy have very few genetic links with north Africa and the only L founded in Sicily is from Trapani and it is nonexistent in the rest of the island in this study.

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## Hauteville

However JoeyC notice the percentage of mtDNA U6 typical for berber women but pratically just two cases in 313 tested southern italians.

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## joeyc

Not all U6 is of North African origin though. Most of it is of Iberian mesolitich origin. A remnant of La Brana like people who dominated Southern Europe before the Neolitich revolution.

BTW no M1 has been found in mainland South Italy either. There are only two U6 out of 115 samples, one from Lecce and one from Cosenza.

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## Hauteville

And again M1 is existent in Trapani (and one case in Agrigento) and not founded in the center and the east of the island.

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## veronica58

I have been told my great great grandparents were Jewish, my MtDNA is L1b1a my autosomal DNA is different with 3 companies, consisting generally with about 65% North Western Europe with smaller percentages with 23 & Me of West Asian and North African, West African and Spanish & Portuguese etc FTDNA gave me 20% Southern European and My Heritage gave me 27% Greece and Balkans. As I have been able to trace all ancestors with a paper trail for at least 10 generations back except for my great great grandparents I am assuming that the Southern European etc % is from them? Only problem is The great great grandfather was born in England and the great great grandmother was born in Ireland. I am a direct female to female descendent of hers and carry the same haplogroup of L1b1a. How does L1b1a fit in with Ireland? Thanks!

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## adnsanchezherrero

Hi Flavia,

I am a L3f1b too (subclade L3f1b6). My subclade seems to be quite frequent in Asturias (NW Spain). According to Wikipedia it reached Iberia in a very remote time: 


> There is at least one relatively deep non-M, non-N clade of L3 outside Africa, L3f1b6, which is found at a frequency of 1% in Asturias, Spain. *It diverged from African L3 lineages at least 10,000 years ago*.


There is a few of us in a FB group (I don't have enough points to include links).

Regards
Fernando, Madrid

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## LIONFARM

Check out LIONFARM2023 Synthetic Sunday of L3

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