# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Who are the greatest Germans in history?

## Zauriel

I would say it is Manfred von Richthofen, alias the Red Baron and the ace of the aces. Note: Ace refers to a fighter pilot who made at least 5 recorded kills of other pilots, although a British ace requires 10 confirmed military aircraft shootings to be one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen

Manfred von Richthofen, the "Red Baron", who brought down 80 Allied aircraft before being shot down and killed on April 21, 1918. The Pour le M&eacute;rite medal is clearly in view here.Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (May 2, 1892 – April 21, 1918) was a German pilot and is still regarded today as the "ace of aces". He was a military leader and flying ace and the most successful fighter pilot of World War I, who won 80 air combats.

Richthofen is also known as "der rote Kampfflieger" ("Red Battle-Flyer") in German; "petit rouge" ("Little Red") or "le Diable Rouge" ("Red Devil") in French, and; the "Red Knight" or the "Red Baron" in the English-speaking world. The German translation of Red Baron is "der Rote Baron", and Richthofen is known by this name in Germany as well (although he was rarely referred to as "Baron" in Germany during his lifetime).

Early life
Born in Breslau, Silesia, Germany (now Wrocław, Poland), Richthofen moved with his family to Schweidnitz (now Świdnica, Poland), when he was 9 years old. The young Richthofen enjoyed hunting and riding horses. After completing cadet training in 1911, he joined a cavalry unit, Uhlan Regiment No. 1 – Kaiser Alexander III.

After the First World War began, Richthofen served as a cavalry scout on both the eastern and western fronts. Richthofen became bored with this role and in about May 1915, he asked to be transferred to the air service. He became an aircraft observer.

[edit]
Piloting career
Inspired by a chance meeting with the great air fighter Oswald Boelcke, he decided to become a pilot himself. Later, Boelcke selected von Richthofen to join his elite fighter squadron (Jagdstaffel), Jasta 2. Von Richthofen won his first aerial combat over Cambrai, France, on September 17, 1916.

After his first victory, von Richthofen wrote to a friend in Berlin who was a jeweller and ordered a silver cup engraved with the date of the fight and the type of enemy machine. He continued this tradition until he had sixty cups, by which time the supply of silver in blockaded Germany was restricted.

Contrary to the popular opinion that no doubt has been reinforced by his reputation, Richthofen was not regarded by his peers as a spectacular pilot. Pilots of the day and historians have continually asserted that his brother Lothar was a much more natural pilot, being more skilled in aerobatic maneuvers. Rather than engage in such risky tactics, Manfred von Richthofen was famous for his strict adherence to a set of flight maxims (commonly referred to as the "Dicta Boelcke") to assure the greatest chance of both squadron and individual success. And while his natural skills as a pilot were not as renowned as some, Manfred von Richthofen viewed his plane as a platform from which to fire his guns, and, from that standpoint, his reputation and skill as an aerial marksman rank with any fighter pilot of his era.

On November 23, 1916 von Richthofen downed the British ace Lanoe Hawker, sometimes referred as "the British Boelcke." The victory came while von Richthofen was flying an Albatros D.II. After this engagement, he was convinced that he needed a fighter airplane with more agility—though this implied a loss of speed. Unfortunately, the Albatros fighter was the mainstay of the German air service at that time, and throughout 1917, and so the Baron flew Albatros D.III and D.V models well into 1917. However, he switched to a Halberstadt D.II biplane while the Albatros design was being modified after a spate of lower-wing spar failures. By September 1917 von Richthofen was flying the celebrated Fokker Dr.I triplane, the distinctive three-winged aircraft with which he is most commonly associated.


Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker triplane[edit]
The Flying Circus
In January 1917, after his 16th kill, von Richthofen received the Pour le M&eacute;rite, the highest military honour in Germany at the time. That same month, he assumed command of Jasta 11, which ultimately included some of the elite of Germany's pilots, many of whom he trained himself. Several in turn became leaders of their own squadrons.

As a practical aid to easy identification in the melee of air combat, Jasta 11's aircraft soon adopted red colourations with various individual markings, with some of Richthofen's planes painted entirely red. This practice soon had its use in German propaganda, even the RFC aircrew dubbing Von Richthofen 'Le Petit Rouge'.

Von Richthofen led his new unit to unparalleled success, peaking during "Bloody April" of 1917. In that month alone, he downed 22 British aircraft, raising his tally to 52. By June he was the commander of the first of the new larger Jagdgeschwader (wing) formations, leading Jagdgeschwader I composed of Jastas 4, 6, 10, and 11. These were highly mobile combined units that could be sent at short notice to different parts of the front as required. In this way, JG1 became "The Flying Circus" or "Richthofen's Circus", which got its name partially from the airplanes of all different colors. However, on the 6th of July, fighting a formation of No. 20 Squadron FE-2s, Richthofen was hit by gunfire and sustained a serious head wound that grounded him for several weeks. Later he would return to combat, although this head wound is thought to have caused lasting damage, as after the injury he often suffered from post-flight nausea and headaches, and a change in temperament. Richthofen was a brilliant tactician, building on Boelcke's shoulders. But unlike Boelcke, he led by example and force of will rather than by inspiration. He was often described as distant, unemotive, and rather humourless, though some colleagues contend otherwise. (See Karl Bodenschatz, Hunting With Richtofen).

Some say that, in 1918, Richthofen had become such a legend that it was feared that his death would be a blow to the morale of the German people. So, his superiors asked him to retire, but he refused, considering it his duty to carry on the fight in support of the foot soldier who had no choice but to fight.

[edit]
Death

Australian soldiers and airmen with the wreckage of von Richthofen's planeThe Red Baron met his death on April 21, 1918 from a single .303 bullet, while flying over Morlancourt Ridge, near the Somme River.

At the time he had been pursuing a Sopwith Camel piloted by a Canadian, Lieutenant Wilfrid "Wop" May of No. 209 Squadron, Royal Air Force. In turn the baron was chased by a Camel piloted by a school friend of May, Captain Arthur "Roy" Brown; the Red Baron turned to check the tail of his plane, that is, in the direction of Brown. He was then caught by the bullet, shot from behind and below, which passed diagonally through his chest.

Von Richthofen then made a hasty but controlled landing, in a field on a hill near the Bray-Corbie road, just north of the village of Vaux-sur-Somme, in a sector controlled by the Australian Imperial Force (AIF). His Fokker was not damaged by the landing. One account claims that von Richthofen died a few moments after Allied soldiers reached the plane, and that before he died, von Richthofen said a few words including "kaputt" ("broken"). Most authorities, however, believe that he was already dead or unconscious by that time.

No. 3 Squadron (3 Sqn) of the Australian Flying Corps, the nearest Allied air unit, assumed responsibility for the Baron's remains.

The identity of the person who shot the baron remains unknown; 0.303 ammunition was the standard ammunition for all machine guns and rifles used by British Empire forces during World War I. It is now considered all but certain by historians, doctors, and ballistics experts that von Richthofen was killed by an anti-aircraft (AA) machine gunner, as the wound through his body indicated that it had been caused by a bullet moving in an upward motion, providing ample evidence for a shot coming from the ground. Many experts believe that the shot probably came from Sergeant Cedric Popkin of the Australian 24th Machine Gun Company.[1] Popkin is the only ground-based machine gunner known to have fired at Richthofen from the right, immediately before he landed. Many Australian riflemen were also shooting at the baron at the time, so one of them may well have fired the fatal shot. The Royal Air Force gave official credit to Brown. However, it has been calculated that Richthofen would have lived for only 20-30 seconds after he was hit — due to the severity of his wound — and Brown did not fire at him within that time frame. It was reported that a spent .303 bullet was found inside Richthofen's clothing, which would also support a low velocity shot from a long distance.


3 Squadron officers were pallbearers and Australian soldiers acted as an honour guard during the Red Baron's funeral on April 22, 1918.The commanding officer of 3 Sqn, Major David Blake suggested initially that the baron had been killed by the crew of one of his squadron's RE8s, which had also fought Richthofen's unit that afternoon. However, following an autopsy which he witnessed, Blake became a strong proponent of the view that an AA machine gunner had killed the baron.

In common with most Allied air officers, Blake regarded von Richthofen with respect and he organised a full military funeral. The Baron was buried in the cemetery at the village of Bertangles near Amiens on April 22, 1918. Six airmen with the rank of captain — the closest peers of Richthofen — acted as pallbearers and an honour guard fired a salute. Other Allied squadrons presented memorial wreaths.

After the war, the Red Baron's remains were exhumed and reburied in the Richthofen family cemetery in Wiesbaden, Germany. The funeral, which was held in Berlin, Germany, was the largest the city has ever seen.

[edit]
Actual Victory Score
For decades after WW I, some British and American authors denigrated von Richtofen's 80 victories, insisting that his record was exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Some claimed that he took credit for planes downed by his squadron or wing. However, in the 1990s a resurgence in Great War scholarship resulted in detailed investigation of many facets of air combat. The definitive study was conducted by British historian Norman Franks with two colleagues, resulting in publication of Under the Guns of the Red Baron in 1998. Their research confirmed the veracity of at least 73 of von Richtofen's claims, with identities of the British or Allied airmen whom von Richthofen fought.

[edit]
Brain damage theory
In September 2004, researchers at the University of Missouri stated that it was likely that brain damage from the earlier head injury had played a part in the Baron's death. His behaviour after his injury was noted as consistent with brain-injured patients, and such an injury would have accounted for his lack of judgement on his final flight: flying too low over enemy territory and suffering target fixation. Indeed, for reasons that might never fully be known, on his final flight, Richthofen suddenly and inexplicably strayed from several of the strict rules of aerial combat, that he himself had devised and obeyed throughout his career. He may also have suffered from what is now recognised as combat fatigue; a symptom of which is a recklessness and disregard for personal safety, as evidenced by his final flight at low level over enemy lines.

[edit]
The Red Baron in popular culture
The Red Baron has become a symbol for dexterity, daring and victory, combined with an element of tragedy both as being 'on the losing side' and in his ultimate death.

The engine from von Richthofen's aircraft is on display in the Imperial War Museum in London as part of the War in the Air Exhibit. It still bears the damage sustained in that final crash.

Von Richthofen has been the subject of numerous films, both documentary and fictional, including the grossly inaccurate 1971 Roger Corman movie, Von Richthofen and Brown, alternatively titled The Red Baron.

An American frozen foods manufacturer has adopted his nickname on Red Baron Pizza accompanied by an image that looks substantially unlike von Richthofen. The image includes a handlebar moustache, which the real Richthofen never had.

In the comic strip Peanuts, one of Snoopy's favorite fantasies portrays him as a World War I flying ace (Arthur Brown's nickname was Snoopy) who has a personal grudge against the Red Baron. Snoopy can never best the Red Baron, who is never seen. The conflict between Snoopy and the Baron was turned into a video game for the Atari system in the 1980s, and again in 2006 by Namco for the Playstation 2, PSP, and Xbox game systems.

The Royal Guardsmen's debut album was in 1966. Among other popular songs, they recorded the song Snoopy vs. The Red Baron which made it to number two on request charts. The conflict between Snoopy and the Red Baron was also a theme in the songs Return of the Red Baron, The Smallest Astronaut, Snoopy for President, and Snoopy's Christmas, which are all on the album.

Corto Maltese, the most famous character of the Italian cartoonist Hugo Pratt, witnesses the defeat of the Red Baron in one of his adventures, where it's speculated that the Baron may have been killed by a single shot fired by a lone Australian gunman, although Corto Maltese himself doesn't believe it was the case.

British comedian Adrian Edmondson played the Baron in the fourth season of Blackadder in an episode entitled "Plan D: Private Plane". The humour of his sole scene was based upon the differences in British and German culture, Edmondson's use of a clich&eacute;d accent and mannerisms, and his quick, meaningless death at the hands of Lord Flasheart (Rik Mayall).

The World War I setting of George Lucas' television series The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles saw the appearance of the Baron (played by actor Marc Warren) in an episode where the young Indiana Jones is shot down over Germany.

The troubled main character of DC Comics's Enemy Ace comics is modeled after the Red Baron. Hans von Hammer, as he was called, even flew a red triplane during WWI. Unlike Richthofen, Von Hammer survives to fly Messerschmitts (red, of course) in WW2, including the Me 262.


Red Baron by DynamixThere have also been a number of WWI flight simulators involving Baron von Richthofen. They include Hunt for the Red Baron, written and published by Small Rockets, Knights of the Sky by Microprose, and Red Baron by Dynamix and published by Sierra Entertainment which was followed up by a less successful sequel Red Baron II.

A song entitled "Not the Red Baron" by Tori Amos on her Boys for Pele album contrasts the feeling of shock and sorrow felt by the death of a well-known figure (in this case, the Red Baron) with the unnoticed death of the majority of pilots who were entirely unknown, making the point that a death is really a death, regardless of who it is; it is terrible to consider one death more important than another.

In the cartoon, SWAT Kats: The Radical Squadron, a Red Baron-like character called the Red Lynx was portrayed as the enemy of Mayor Manx's great grandfather, the Blue Manx. The Red Lynx returned as a ghost, taking over a prototype jet named for his old enemy, until being shot down by Mayor Manx. Red Lynx was voiced by Mark Hamill.

One of the characters in Mobile Suit Gundam, a hugely popular Japanese sci-fi military drama, a saga that spans over thirty years, is believed to be at least partially based on Baron von Richthofen. Char Aznable, nicknamed "The Red Comet" was a legendary pilot for the fictional Principality of Zeon, and pilotted a variety of mobile suits (weapons designed for outer space combat), always painted a trademark red. A variation on this character has existed in every new Gundam series produced, and their red mobile suits pay homage to the real life hero who was recognized as the "Ace of aces".

The American heavy metal band Iced Earth recorded "Red Baron/Blue Max" based on von Richthofen for their "Glorious Burden" album.

The Spanish heavy metal band Bar&oacute;n Rojo is named after the Red Baron (in Spanish), and their logo is a shadow resembling a pilot.

In the videogame Empire Earth one of the campaigns is based on the Red Baron. Players take control of Manfred von Richthofen

In the videogame Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas a radio-controlled airplane called "Red Baron" can be controlled during a mission.

In the videogame Shining Force 2 Lemon, a german-looking powerful knight, is also known as The Red Baron. This character is wearing a red armor and a red shield.

Namco's videogame Skykid depicts the fanciful air journey of the "Red Baron" and the "Blue Max".

In an episode of SpongeBob SquarePants, SpongeBob shouts, "Squidward, this ship belongs to the Red Baron!" It happens to be the Flying Dutchman's ship.

The German power metal band Masterplan features a track on their "Aeronautics" album entitled "Crimson Rider" which mentions a "Baron of the sky". This is presumably a tribute to Richthofen since his name, The Red Baron, relates to "Crimson Rider".

In the science-fiction television show Space: Above and Beyond, the marines encounter a Chig "ace of aces" flying an advanced stealth fighter, who ambushes and destroys several USMC squadrons. Naval intelligence nicknames him "Chiggy von Richthofen". Several fighter squadrons are sent to destroy him in "Operation Red Baron."

Similarly, an episode of the sci-fi series Battlestar Galactica revolved around the hunt for an "ace" Cylon Raider nicknamed Scar by Galactica's pilots because of the heavy damage it has endured from multiple skrimishes. The story of Scar contains many parallels to that of Baron von Richthofen.

In Fred Saberhagen's short story "Wings Out of Shadow" (part of the 'Berkserker' shared-world SF series), a captured historian uses 'personality modules' based on several WWI fighter aces, including von Richthoften, to suborn the spacecraft he is forced use against his own allies.

In The Star Wars X-Wing Saga there is an Imperial flying ace named Baron Soontir Fel. He commands the elite 181st TIE Squadron, and they are identified by 2 red blood stripes on their fighters as well as their jumpsuits.

In one of WB's "Bugs Bunny" cartoons, "Dumb Patrol," Yosemite Sam plays the Red Baron and is shown as a negative character who fights against Bugs Bunny.


Relatives of note
He was distant cousins with the German Field Marshal Wolfram von Richthofen, as well as Frieda von Richthofen (1879–1956), who married the English novelist D.H. Lawrence (1885–1930) in July 1914. Though their last common ancestor was born in 1661, the Red Baron's infamy nonetheless attached to Frieda's reputation in England. Frieda's sister Else von Richthofen was the first female social scientist in Germany.

His younger brother, Lothar von Richthofen (1894–1922), was also a flying ace, with 40 victories. He served along side his brother in jasta 11. He died in an air crash in 1922.

His great-nephew, Baron Dr. Hermann von Richthofen, was German Ambassador to the United Kingdom from 1989 to 1993, and his name made him a media favourite.

His uncle, Baron Walter von Richthofen, was a native of Silesia. Richthofen had come to Denver (Colorado, USA) in 1877 after the Franco-Prussian War, started the Denver Chamber of Commerce, and was celebrated locally as the founder of Montclair as "a fount of health and prosperity, and as a model community with enlightened planning and sophisticated architecture." His Richthofen Castle was one of the most sumptuous mansions in the American West. Begun in 1883 and completed in 1887, it was modeled on the original Richthofen Castle in Germany. Located immediately around the Castle are the Baron's mistress's house and his sanitarium/dairy.

He is also the 10th cousin, 6 times removed of Prince Felipe of Spain.

----------


## Radegast

Friedrich Nietzsche and Ludwig van Beethoven, of course. Nietzsche is a greatest Germans philosopher. Is Carl Friedrich Gauss a mathematician?

----------


## Matiasu

Martin Luther, and hey, I'm not even protestant.

----------


## Mako

_Albert Einstein_ by far! Not only from Germany but perhaps one of the greatest people who have ever lived. His scientific output is immesurable in changing our world.

----------


## iapodos

I thought Albert Einstein was Jew.

----------


## LeBrok

lol, yeah, we can call him Jewish-German-Swiss-American. Overall as long as he had German citizenship at one point, Germany can claim him too, I guess.
Even Copernicus could be listed here, though he had polish citizenship, but he's mother was German, and we know that Copernicus spoke German fluently.
Many excellent brains are mixture of nations, cultures and races.

----------


## Gungnir

Manfred von Richthofen is an impressive figure but as far as German aces go Erich Hartmann is even more impressive.

----------


## abelgalois

Euler!! (He was Swiss, but a German-Swiss, I believe)

----------


## Gaga

_I thought Albert Einstein was_ _Jew__._

No, how is it possible that you never heard the groundbreaking news. Einstein was an alien from Mars. 

Pfft. 

My great-grandmother's 5th cousin was indeed a Jew. Ironic isn't how Hitler, for all his pro-Aryan garbage, was likewise at least partially Jewish. However, if you really *don't* that know much about German history, Jews have been in Germany for centuries upon centuries. Even when they were expelled from the country a number of those whose social standing was better than laborer or pauper [essentially those who would lose more by leaving] remained. The word Ashkenazi literally means Jews of Germans.

----------


## Twilight

> _I thought Albert Einstein was_ _Jew__._
> 
> No, how is it possible that you never heard the groundbreaking news. Einstein was an alien from Mars. 
> 
> Pfft. 
> 
> My great-grandmother's 5th cousin was indeed a Jew. Ironic isn't how Hitler, for all his pro-Aryan garbage, was likewise at least partially Jewish. However, if you really *don't* that know much about German history, Jews have been in Germany for centuries upon centuries. Even when they were expelled from the country a number of those whose social standing was better than laborer or pauper [essentially those who would lose more by leaving] remained. The word Ashkenazi literally means Jews of Germans.


Albert Einstein was yes practicing the Jewish faith, however he was born in the Kingdom of Wurrtenberg in the former Southern German Empire before immigrating to America.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

----------


## DuPidh

Werner Heisenberg who drove Einstein crazy! His quantum theory was so advanced for its time, as Einstein thought that was a joke! He thought the theory was fine but it was not based on reality! We all know how hard he( Einstain) tried to discredit the theory. His closesed confidants warned Einstein that he was discrediting himself if he kept doing that.

----------


## Pratt

Immanuel Kant

----------


## Apsurdistan

The band Rammstein

----------


## connordayman

The guys from Kraftwerk or whoever invented the soft pretzel would get my vote.

----------


## Bergin

I voted Planck, but honestly remembered that the books of Erich Maria Remark shaped me much more:
3 friends, nothing new from the western front, arc of triumph. Some german friends did not even knew his name. 

Marlene was also cool.

----------


## Jovialis

I voted for other:

My choice is Hermann, a.k.a. Arminius

His triumph in the battle of Teutoburg Forest had a lasting impression on the Germanic peoples' sense of nationhood.

----------


## LABERIA

Gutenberg, he changed the world. 

*"Modern Book Printing" − sculpture commemorating its inventor Gutenberg.*

Also, i want add the name of another great German who is not in the list, Helmut Kohl. He died few days ago.

----------


## Angela

> I voted Planck, but honestly remembered that the books of Erich Maria Remark shaped me much more:
> 3 friends, nothing new from the western front, arc of triumph. *Some german friends did not even knew his name. 
> *
> Marlene was also cool.


Now there's another depressing thought. So many people are sort of illiterate nowadays. University has for a lot of people just turned into a trade school of one sort or another.

----------


## Diomedes

Goethe, 'nuff said.

----------


## davef

> Now there's another depressing thought. So many people are sort of illiterate nowadays. University has for a lot of people just turned into a trade school of one sort or another.


In what way? And why should a computer science student need to know about this Erich Maria Remark dude ;)? Never heard of the guy, lol (and I take pride in that).

----------


## Angela

> In what way? And why should a computer science student need to know about this Erich Maria Remark dude ;)? Never heard of the guy, lol (and I take pride in that).


Why would anyone take pride in ignorance of any kind, especially without even making any attempt to find out who he was?

Erich Maria Remarque:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Maria_Remarque

Why? Because through his books you can understand World War I and what that did to the psyche of an entire generation of Europe, and, more generally, about the terror of war. 

If more people who hadn't experienced it had read it, and, more importantly, understood what he was trying to say, and understood what he was saying when writing about the Nazis, maybe we wouldn't have had World War II.

Maybe, if all of that had been understood, we'd be living in a better world today. 

Sometimes I despair of you, Davef.

----------


## davef

> Why would anyone take pride in ignorance of any kind, especially without even making any attempt to find out who he was?
> 
> Erich Maria Remarque:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Maria_Remarque
> 
> Why? Because through his books you can understand World War I and what that did to the psyche of an entire generation of Europe, and, more generally, about the terror of war. 
> 
> If more people who hadn't experienced it had read it, and, more importantly, understood what he was trying to say, and understood what he was saying when writing about the Nazis, maybe we wouldn't have had World War II.
> 
> ...


Haha lol sorry, I wrote that first thing in the morning when I'm usually grouchy and incoherent. I'm not usually "up" until just after 12 pm.

----------


## MobyD

Well I can't argue with that list.

----------


## Tomenable

*Einstein* was rather the greatest *ethnically* *Jewish* person in history, who happened to have German citizenship (until he was forced out by the German Nazis, after which he became a *Jewish-American*). *Nietzsche* claimed having *ethnic* *Polish* ancestry (perhaps it could rather be *Sorbian*, though):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post546128




> Friedrich Nietzsche claimed to be Polish on many occasions. He wrote for example:
> 
> 1) "Und hiermit berühre ich die Frage der Rasse. Ich bin ein polnischer Edelmann pur sang, dem auch nicht ein Tropfen schlechtes Blut beigemischt ist, am wenigsten deutsches. Denke ich daran, wie oft ich unterwegs als Pole angeredet werde und von Polen selbst, wie selten man mich für einen Deutschen nimmt, so könnte es scheinen, dass ich nur zu den angesprenkelten Deutschen gehörte."
> 
> 2) "Und doch waren meine Vorfahren polnische Edelleute: ich habe von daher viel Rassen-Instinkte im Leibe, wer weiss? Zuletzt gar noch das liberum veto."
> 
> 3) "Ich danke dem Himmel, daß ich in allen meinen Instinkten Pole und nichts andres bin."
> 
> 4) "Ich selbst bin immer noch Pole genug, um gegen Chopin den Rest der Musik hinzugeben."
> ...

----------


## Tomenable

> Immanuel Kant


Ethnically he was a Curonian (a small Balto-Slavic ethnic group) from the Curonian Spit in East Prussia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonian_Spit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kursenieki#Famous_people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Biography




> While scholars of Kant's life long accepted the claim, there is no evidence that Kant's paternal line was Scottish; it is more likely that the Kants got their name from the village of Kantwaggen (today part of Priekulė) *and were of Curonian origin.*[24][25]


*So far we have:*

Einstein - Jew
Nietzsche - Pole or Sorb
Kant - Curonian or Lithuanian

----------


## paul333

Arminius, his stand, against Roman occupation, preserved the Germanic culture, and ultimately led to the first men on the moon, and even Albert Einsteins education etc.

----------


## Angela

> Arminius, his stand, against Roman occupation, preserved the Germanic culture, and ultimately led to the first men on the moon, and even Albert Einsteins education etc.


What complete and utter garbage. That's too stupid to even merit a detailed response.

As for Einstein, they didn't want him so they now don't get to claim him.

----------


## paul333

Well its only my own personal opinion.

I'm sure if the Romans prevailed it might of been different, but that is one of them big " If "s. You cannot change history, and from that event in AD9, Europe evolved, and developed in its own unique way, and this had great global consequence's that cannot be denied, as we still live with the effects today, and have done ever since.

'Rome' was never the centre of the world, and never could be, and Arminius proved it. The principles he stood up for then, are those we still live with today, especially in the Northern area's of Europe, ie 'independance', and a love of 'freedom'.

The same principles the English ( descendants of the Cherusci ) and the UK ,used recently, to decide not to live under a European Hammer. 

Anyone that ignores the significance, and importance of his actions and its consequences, good and bad, must also be quite stupid 'in my opinion'.

----------


## Salento

Somebody’s Hero, is someone else’s Foe.
imo Arminius (a Roman Army Officer and a Citizen) was a Traitor, and he was also murdered by members of his own tribe. 
He caused the slaughter of thousands of his people when eventually Rome went back for sweet Revenge. What a Traitor!

----------


## paul333

> Somebody’s Hero, is someone else’s Foe.
> imo Arminius was a Traitor, and he was also murdered by members of his own tribe. 
> He caused the slaughter of thousands of his people when eventually Rome went back for sweet Revenge. What a Traitor!


In preventing further advancements of the Roman Empire, he almost certainly saved many, many, more thousands, from certain death, and slavery. 

He was believed to of been later poisoned by his own family around 21 AD, and there had been offers to the Roman's to poison Arminius, such as that from Adgandestrius of the recently Defeated Chatti tribe AD 15, and no doubt Rome may well of been involved with his death.

He was a Germanic Cherusci tribsman. He and his brother were forcibly removed from their family home when young around 9yrs old, by Roman imposed customs,and taken to Rome in 8 BC. 

He was a victim of treachery, and a traitor to only those who tried to enslave and destroy his people, and those who supported it. He was never a Roman, but had to survive as one.

Arminius was never defeated by the Romans during the later German Wars against Germanicus AD14-16

----------


## Salento

I guess Karma is a B..ch.
Besides being German, Arminius was also a Roman Army Officer and a Roman Citizen.

Arminius lost against the Roman General Germanicus.
... Arminius escaped into the forest, and kept riding, as, behind him, Germanicus sent his legions into the fight. The struggle between 128,000 men went on for hours. “From nine in the morning until nightfall the enemy were slaughtered,” said Tacitus, “and ten miles were covered with arms and dead bodies.” Arminius’ army was routed. “It was a great victory, and without bloodshed to us,” Tacitus declared. But Arminius himself was still at large. ...
... Pushed into woods, trapped with their backs to the marsh, the tribesmen were slaughtered. At nightfall, the killing stopped. The Germans had been dislodged from the barrier and butchered in their thousands...
... Germanicus immediately regrouped his forces and led a new *raid across the Rhine, this time returning with another of Varus’ Lost Eagles*....

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/1...romes-revenge/

----------


## Angela

> I guess Karma is a B..ch.
> Besides being German, Arminius was also a Roman Army Officer and a Roman Citizen.
> 
> Arminius lost against the Roman General Germanicus.
> ... Arminius escaped into the forest, and kept riding, as, behind him, Germanicus sent his legions into the fight. The struggle between 128,000 men went on for hours. “From nine in the morning until nightfall the enemy were slaughtered,” said Tacitus, “and ten miles were covered with arms and dead bodies.” Arminius’ army was routed. “It was a great victory, and without bloodshed to us,” Tacitus declared. But Arminius himself was still at large. ...
> ... Pushed into woods, trapped with their backs to the marsh, the tribesmen were slaughtered. At nightfall, the killing stopped. The Germans had been dislodged from the barrier and butchered in their thousands...
> ... Germanicus immediately regrouped his forces and led a new *raid across the Rhine, this time returning with another of Varus’ Lost Eagles*....
> 
> https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/1...romes-revenge/


I don't hold it against people that they fight against invaders of their territory. My own Celt-Ligurian ancestors fought the Romans, even if I think they were misguided. I don't, however, admire anyone who breaks his sworn oath, especially a soldier who betrays men with whom he served. A traitor he was.

The version being propagated by this poster is sheer fantasy and the fantasy of someone unschooled in history, even his own. For one thing, what did their freedom mean? It meant thousands of years of rule by despotic kings, up until the end of the First World War, in fact, and invasion after invasion of other nations to take their liberty from *them*. Also, of course, plunging Europe into the Dark Ages and retarding progress for at least a thousand years.

Of course, a lot of peoples try to propagate fantasy for nationalistic purposes. However, it's incumbent on us here as people trying to use reason and logic to look at the facts.

These are the facts:

"The popular notion that Arminius drove the Romans out of Germania east of the Rhine is a fallacy, though. Roman legions were back in force six years after the battle, wreaking havoc and winning major battles. The discovery last year of an ancient battlefield some 100 kilometers east of Kalkriese, near the town ofKalefeld south of Hanover, testifies to Roman military presence deep in hostile Germania as late as the third century AD."It's typically German to say world history was shaped on German soil," said Bendikowski. "We know that this was one battle among many and that there was a range of factors behind Rome's eventual retreat to the Rhine. Everyone who needed this myth regarded it as the turning point of history. For many it remains the turning point. But it wasn't.""

That's from Spiegel, by the way. 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-644913.html

The prior objectionable posts exhibit the kind of simplification and dumbing down of history which can so often be found on the internet. The reality is that the Empire reached the height at which it could be reasonably maintained. It's the same reason the Romans retreated to Hadrian's Wall. What lay beyond that was worth the strain expansion would have put on the Empire? The truth? Not much.

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

> Arminius, his stand, against Roman occupation, preserved the Germanic culture, and ultimately led to the first men on the moon, and even Albert Einsteins education etc.


Looool Arminius = spaceman

12 IQ

----------


## ToBeOrNotToBe

For me, the answer is Beethoven or Nietzsche. For more knowledgeable Germanophiles, the answer is almost always Goethe.

----------


## paul333

There were many bloody confrontations between Arminius and Germanicus, between AD13-17 but neither claimed outright victory, and Arminius was actually wounded during one of these. Germanicus was later pulled from Germany back to Rome on the promise of him receiving a Triumph, by Tiberious, who was fearfull of another Varus dissaster. Once Germanicus was recalled to Rome, Tiberius put a halt to any further incursions into Germanic territory, and the Rhine became the established Eastern flank of the Roman Empire, in Northern Europe.

Tactitus wrote his Annals between 115 Ad and 120 AD, He was not even born untill 56/57 AD, and he is known to be careless regarding his writings of military history etc.

One thing is certain, the Roman Empire ended at the Rhine, after AD 16/17, as a direct response to the fears and actions of Arminius. The result was that early Northern European History and culture continued to develope independantly, and seperatley to those within the Roman influence.

There is no evidence Arminius swore an oath to Rome at nine years of age. His loyalty was to his people, and his ancestors, as was the Germanic custom. 

He was a loyal Cherusci tribesman, and what did his freedom mean ?, it meant he had a choice.

Regarding the reasons the Romans built the Wall, it was the very same reason they later built the Limes in Germany etc, they had lost thousands of men, including possibly one complete legion the 9th Hispanic I believe, and had to retreat to defensive areas of safety. 

Hadrian himself ordered an extra, 3,000 troops to Britain from Germania, at the beginning of his reign, due to suffering military losses (AD117 ). The military threats became so serious a worry and concern for him that he actually came to Britain himself in AD122, bringing an additional Legion the 6th, ( 5,000 troops) and directed the 'Defensive' Wall to be built.

Following the simple fact that Britain is also an Island,and any trade or visit to the island had to be by sea, usually by sail. In sailing to Britain they had to follow the winds, often they would be forced around the island, much like the later viking fleets, and the well known Spanish armada, which was forced around the North of the island to travel South. ( predominant winds in Britain are from the South West ) 

It seems strange that the Romans would not secure storm ports for their fleets etc around these Northern area's, and leave a main route into and out of Britain undefended. I believe they had little choice and were forced to abandon the further Northern Area's of Britain, as they were clearly on the defensive, as the building of Hadrian's Wall confirmed.

Archaeological evidence is also now supporting this theory as the most likely.

Without the actions of 'Arminius ' Germany, would never of existed today, and the question would never of been asked, and wether you like it or not that is fact, not fantasy.

----------


## Tomenable

Wasn't Arminius born in what is now the Netherlands? 

If so, this would make him Dutch rather than German.

----------


## paul333

> Wasn't Arminius born in what is now the Netherlands? 
> ,
> If so, this would make him Dutch rather than German.


North West Germania, in the area of Hanover, modern Germany. The 'Cherusci' did later mix with the Frisian, and Saxon tribes in the area of today's Netherlands, and they would eventually then move, to settle in the South and East of England.

----------


## Tomenable

New documentary about Martin Luther: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...on-documentary

----------


## MoOnKat

Bismark , I don't particularly Like Martin Luther

----------


## hulnistunazii

I’ve always found Widukind’s stand against Charlemagne during the Saxon wars as a very impressive and very Germanic last stand. A very sad story.

----------


## Joey37

My paternal line ancestors were Lutherans from the Palatinate (like the Trumps!), so I picked Luther. Here stehe Ich, Ich kann nicht anders, Gott helfe Mir. Gutenberg was also immensely valuable for Luther as well in getting his message out.

----------

