# Humanities & Anthropology > Anthropology & Ethnography > Guess the Ethnicity >  Please classify this man....

## Northener

give it a try! thanks in advance!

Vakantiefoto Leon.jpg

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## Northener

Due to connection problems during my holiday I might react later sorry!

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## Angela

> give it a try! thanks in advance!
> 
> Vakantiefoto Leon.jpg


You look very German to me, so, northern Germany, Scandinavia, over into the Netherlands, perhaps even further east of Germany, although I tend to think not. Most Eastern Europeans tend to have a particular "look" that sets them apart from the rest of Europeans. That's not always true, obviously.

Is it you?

Btw, I would think this even if your "handle" wasn't "Northener". :)

Believe it or not I have cousins who look a little bit like you. They'd kill me if I posted pictures of them, but an Italian skier from precisely my father's area has the same sort of phenotype, so I'll post him. He advertises where he comes from on his hat, "Parmigiano Reggiano". :)

Giuliano_Razzoli_Schladming_2010-300x224-Parmigiano Reggiano.jpg

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## Sile

> give it a try! thanks in advance!
> 
> Vakantiefoto Leon.jpg


human race

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## Northener

Angela. that was bull's eye! It's me indeed. And I live in the most Northern part of the Netherlands, Groningen, coastal North Sea. My ancestors (and autosomal DNA) are dominantly Frisians and Saxons and also a bunch from North Western Germany. So perfectly predicted. What makes me less 'stereotype Northern' are my deep brown eyes, in this respect your Italian cousin has lighter eyes! By the way talking about Italy, my Y-DNA is E-V22, according to FTDNA this was Bantu ;) Whit this kind of face a little bit surprising..... The best educated guess is that it's due to a raid of the Spanish Army in 1586 in Frisia especially in my oldest ancestors village, a lot of rapes were reported. And when you look at the recruitment area's of the Spanish tercios these area exactly the area's where EV22 is more than the average 1% in Southern Europe and is about 5% of the men, area of Naples, Sicily, Asturias and Andalusia. But off topic it would be strong genes if a soldier from 1586 is due to my brown eyes. More recent from both sides of my family it were my great grandmothers who had deep brown eyes! Last but not least what about refreshing the old phenotypes? The old Coon and Lundman phenotypes are outdated, they often regarded phenotypes as a sort of 'frozen products' of the past.....but terms as Borreby are still being used.....time for a chance!?


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## oreo_cookie

Borreby? Looks German.

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## Northener

> You look very German to me, so, northern Germany, Scandinavia, over into the Netherlands, perhaps even further east of Germany, although I tend to think not. Most Eastern Europeans tend to have a particular "look" that sets them apart from the rest of Europeans. That's not always true, obviously.
> 
> Is it you?
> 
> Btw, I would think this even if your "handle" wasn't "Northener". :)
> 
> Believe it or not I have cousins who look a little bit like you. They'd kill me if I posted pictures of them, but an Italian skier from precisely my father's area has the same sort of phenotype, so I'll post him. He advertises where he comes from on his hat, "Parmigiano Reggiano". :)
> 
> Giuliano_Razzoli_Schladming_2010-300x224-Parmigiano Reggiano.jpg[/
> ...





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## Northener

> Borreby? Looks German.


Thanks Oreo, indeed Borreby is more often said, I am alway cautious with the Coon phenotypes, see my comment above, although I must admit whensomeone stated also that I have, like with the Borreby, Cro Magnoid influences, there are indeed similarities like a pointed chin, big head and some other features are similar.....old hunter gatherer influences?


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## Dominicanese

Germanic for sure

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## Northener

> Germanic for sure





> Borreby? Looks German.





> You look very German to me, so, northern Germany, Scandinavia, over into the Netherlands, perhaps even further east of Germany, although I tend to think not. Most Eastern Europeans tend to have a particular "look" that sets them apart from the rest of Europeans. That's not always true, obviously.
> 
> Is it you?
> 
> Btw, I would think this even if your "handle" wasn't "Northener". :)
> 
> Believe it or not I have cousins who look a little bit like you. They'd kill me if I posted pictures of them, but an Italian skier from precisely my father's area has the same sort of phenotype, so I'll post him. He advertises where he comes from on his hat, "Parmigiano Reggiano". :)
> 
> Giuliano_Razzoli_Schladming_2010-300x224-Parmigiano Reggiano.jpg


Dear Domincanese, Oreo and Angela, I think I solved 'the puzzle' in Coon Races of Europe (=better called phenotypes of Europe), I saw the following passage which I guess are very accurate in my 'case' Plate 33 Nordics altered by Northwestern European Upper Paleolithic Mixture: "Northern Netherlands....are the home of overgrown Nordics with long faces and high heads, showing both Corded, Brünn or Borreby tendencies." For Brunn or Borreby can be read cro-magnon, the old hunter gatherers of Northwestern Europe.
In this book of Coon the next two passage are very striking, it's about the western Germans:
Coon 207.jpgCoon 208.jpg

That's also summarized in this picture:
Nordocromagnid.jpg

Solved case? ;)

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## Maleth

> give it a try! thanks in advance!
> 
> Vakantiefoto Leon.jpg


Like Angela Said i also believe it could be German, Dutch even Scandinavian, except for the eyes (shape and colour) that seem to tell a different story....although they are not totally unkown in these regions

(Mans Zelmerlow Swedish singer)

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## Northener

> Like Angela Said i also believe it could be German, Dutch even Scandinavian, except for the eyes (shape and colour) that seem to tell a different story....although they are not totally unkown in these regions
> 
> (Mans Zelmerlow Swedish singer)


Thanks Marleth, I think this is a sharp observation. About 80% of the people of Northern Netherlands have light eyes, makes 20% otherwise....
In Scandinavia this is may be also the case, like with Mans, who has also darker hair.

Although Coon has many disadvantages and is altered, he sometimes has sharp observations, look at Mans and my face and you can guess why Coon wrote about the western Germans ('Saxons' heartland is Nordalbingia outmost Northern Germany); '...these differ from the Danish Iron Age Skulls in being slightly longer, somewhat broader and considerable higher. The foreheads are broader and the face is broader and in many cases a bit longer....So familiar but slightly different.....as you can see!

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## Northener

> You look very German to me, so, northern Germany, Scandinavia, over into the Netherlands, perhaps even further east of Germany, although I tend to think not. Most Eastern Europeans tend to have a particular "look" that sets them apart from the rest of Europeans. That's not always true, obviously.
> 
> Is it you?
> 
> Btw, I would think this even if your "handle" wasn't "Northener". :)
> 
> Believe it or not I have cousins who look a little bit like you. They'd kill me if I posted pictures of them, but an Italian skier from precisely my father's area has the same sort of phenotype, so I'll post him. He advertises where he comes from on his hat, "Parmigiano Reggiano". :)
> 
> Giuliano_Razzoli_Schladming_2010-300x224-Parmigiano Reggiano.jpg



I have done the family finder, autosomal DNA, what a useful research especially in relationship with regions and genepools! Especially Ged Match has nice tools.
*And again you had the right eye:
*
*K13
*

# Population
1 North_Atlantic 50.65
2 Baltic 27.79
3 West_Med 10.08
4 West_Asian 4.79
5 East_Med 3.69
6 South_Asian 1.62

*1 Danish @ 1.742467
2 North_Dutch @ 2.503399*
3 Norwegian @ 2.936815
4 North_German @ 4.368844 
5 Orcadian @ 4.697951
6 Swedish @ 4.926437
7 Irish @ 5.600447
8 West_Scottish @ 6.118611
9 Southeast_English @ 6.190817 
10 Southwest_English @ 7.859173

*K15
*# Population
1 North_Sea 39,01
2 Atlantic 27,71
3 Baltic 12.19
4 Eastern_Euro 10.20
5 West_Med 5.86
6 West_Asian 2.80
7 South_Asian 1.02

*1 North_Dutch @ 2.662666
2 Danish @ 3.078913*
3 West_Scottish @ 4.199471
4 Orcadian @ 4.770091
5 Norwegian @ 4.771307
6 Irish @ 4.923634
7 West_Norwegian @ 5.078017
8 Southeast_English @ 6.210367 
9 Swedish @ 6.318136
10 North_German @ 6.876086

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## Northener

> Like Angela Said i also believe it could be German, Dutch even Scandinavian, except for the eyes (shape and colour) that seem to tell a different story....although they are not totally unkown in these regions
> 
> (Mans Zelmerlow Swedish singer)


Regarding to eyes, I did an aDNA test and Ged Match has mostly nice and accurat features also an eye prediction test. That test came not even close:
oog.jpg

So light green!! :Laughing: 

I guess this is a classic one, brown eyes are dominant, but I have lots of recessive genes which are pointing at light eyes:

AC at: rs4778241 - High Melanin. Adds yellow, amber, or brown. Some darkening. Contributes Amber, Brown.
CC at: rs3794604 - Blocks some melanin. Often gives light colored eyes.
CT at: rs4553604 - Blue.
CT at: rs1129038 - Adds Yellow.
GG at: rs12906280 - Gray ring around outer edge
CT at: rs3935591 - Heavy melanin on Anterior Epithelium. Brown.
GT at: rs1470608 - Medium melanin on Anterior Epithelium. Gives dark eyes. AG at: rs7174027 - Adds Yellow.

Stil the result is:
Vakantiefoto Leon (1).jpg

So a strong: CT at: rs3935591 - Heavy melanin on Anterior Epithelium. Brown !?

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## MOESAN

> Like Angela Said i also believe it could be German, Dutch even Scandinavian, except for the eyes (shape and colour) that seem to tell a different story....although they are not totally unkown in these regions
> 
> (Mans Zelmerlow Swedish singer)


has almost nothing of a 'nordic' dolicho type nor of other geographically northern types like all sorts or 'borreby' classified men - He is rather heavily 'mediter' of some sort (the inferior jaw angles could point to some South caucasus 'mediter': some croma remnants in gracilized pops, as the low skull, MAYBE the modifying element in the so called 'kymric' or 'iron-age' nordic type of Coon?? the non-indo-afghan' element in 'cappadocian' of someones? in Anatolia Near-East it could be appeared at metals ages; all the way very different from the firts Catal Höyök people)! By the way I saw some surprising "Scandinavian" actors/actresses and when I searched on the net I f: ound out they were of Yewish origin!
This Swedish man above

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## Maleth

> Regarding to eyes, I did an aDNA test and Ged Match has mostly nice and accurat features also an eye prediction test. That test came not even close:
> oog.jpg
> 
> So light green!!
> 
> I guess this is a classic one, brown eyes are dominant, but I have lots of recessive genes which are pointing at light eyes:
> 
> AC at: rs4778241 - High Melanin. Adds yellow, amber, or brown. Some darkening. Contributes Amber, Brown.
> CC at: rs3794604 - Blocks some melanin. Often gives light colored eyes.
> ...


CC at: rs3794604 - Blocks some melanin. Often gives light colored eyes.
CC at: rs1129038 - High Melanin production. Brown.
AA at: rs8033448 - Med Brown on Sphincter
AG at: rs10467971 - Penetrance Modifier - Blue
GT at: rs7713279 - Inhibit weak amber gradient
GG at: rs12906280 - Gray ring around outer edge
AA at: rs4778241 - Medium melanin on Anterior Epithelium. Brown.
CT at: rs3935591 - Heavy melanin on Anterior Epithelium. Brown.
CC at: rs7403602 - High density on Anterior Stroma. Blocks melanin. Blocks blue. Gives lighter colors.
AG at: rs7174027 - Adds Yellow.
AG at: rs7495174 - Adds melanin. Adds yellow, amber, or brown. Some darkening. Contributes to brown.
CC at: rs4779685 - Flecks (Nevi).
TT at: rs35405 - Inhibit weak amber gradient




Thats a bit similar to myself, but I also have brown eyes so the prediction is wrong although both bro and sis have blue eyes.

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## Maleth

> has almost nothing of a 'nordic' dolicho type nor of other geographically northern types like all sorts or 'borreby' classified men - He is rather heavily 'mediter' of some sort (the inferior jaw angles could point to some South caucasus 'mediter': some croma remnants in gracilized pops, as the low skull, MAYBE the modifying element in the so called 'kymric' or 'iron-age' nordic type of Coon?? the non-indo-afghan' element in 'cappadocian' of someones? in Anatolia Near-East it could be appeared at metals ages; all the way very different from the firts Catal Höyök people)! By the way I saw some surprising "Scandinavian" actors/actresses and when I searched on the net I f: ound out they were of Yewish origin!
> This Swedish man above


Before I posted I checked his biography to see if has mixed parents maybe but they both seem to be Swedish unless its granpa or granma or beyond (I will not be surprised at all) 

_Born in_ _Lund, Måns Zelmerlöw is the son of Birgitta Sahlén, a professor at Lund University, and surgeon Sven-Olof Zelmerlöw.[2][3] Zelmerlöw studied music in high school in Lund_

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A5ns_Zelmerl%C3%B6w. However I agree he does not what you call a typical Swedish look, but seems that he is Swedish enough :)

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## MOESAN

> give it a try! thanks in advance!
> 
> Vakantiefoto Leon.jpg


As you know i'm not too found of guessing upon a sole photo (picture); But I'll try it for the fun.
Don't seem to brachcycpehalized; without any sound ground I would bet: meso-subdolichocephalic (78 to 80?); the seemignly receding forehead, the broad cheekbones and the rather narrow down jaw point to a strong 'capelloid-brünnoid' input; I would say what could be the result of 'cromagnon' and 'brünn' crossings of Mesolithic, where the 'brünnoid' phylum dominates, surely even more on the lateral view (I risk it without profile view);
Without offense, it seems a modern descendant of some kind of Loschbour!
(I m too young to have met Loschbour man; if offenced, please do write to my advocate)

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## davef

> human race


Sile, MAN, I busted out laughing when I read that!!! BRILLIANT!!!

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## Northener

> Sile, MAN, I busted out laughing when I read that!!! BRILLIANT!!!


Of course! ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wKzyIN1yk

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## Northener

> As you know i'm not too found of guessing upon a sole photo (picture); But I'll try it for the fun.
> Don't seem to brachcycpehalized; without any sound ground I would bet: meso-subdolichocephalic (78 to 80?); the seemignly receding forehead, the broad cheekbones and the rather narrow down jaw point to a strong 'capelloid-brünnoid' input; I would say what could be the result of 'cromagnon' and 'brünn' crossings of Mesolithic, where the 'brünnoid' phylum dominates, surely even more on the lateral view (I risk it without profile view);
> Without offense, it seems a modern descendant of some kind of Loschbour!
> (I m too young to have met Loschbour man; if offenced, please do write to my advocate)



Moesan you disappoint me, my image of you is a Merlin, wise old man, grand beard, who certainly met the Loschour  :Grin: 
Anyway thanks, 'modern Loschour' (although no receding forehead) can live with that.....(no choice either hahaha).


Already Coons stated about the Northern Dutch: 'The German Nordic is without doubt strong, but the excessive size of head and face, an particular facial breadth, make it clear, that the older Upper Paleothic elements, Brunn as well as Borreby, have been incorporated in quantity.' That was in 1939.

In the fifties he has dropped that. No Brunn no Borreby. But the broader "Northwest European", which 'apparently recapitulates the pre-agricultural population of this region. Western Irish, Scots, Norwegian from the centrals coast, Swedes near Goteberg and certain other local groups deviate strongly in the direction of this type.' 

When there is a direction between genotype and phenotype this could be the case with me....even for Northwestern Europe the hunter gatherer is more excessive present, more in the Baltic figures.

What are hints to Loschour?

I. Eurogenes, Gedmatch
Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions
Baltic HG.gif

Population 
Anatolian Farmer 6.60
Baltic Hunter Gatherer 61.83
Middle Eastern Herder - 
East Asian Farmer - 
South American Hunter Gatherer - 
South Asian Hunter Gatherer 1.50
North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer - 
East African Pastoralist - 
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.45
Mediterranean Farmer 29.61
Pygmy Hunter Gatherer - 
Bantu Farmer - 

II. FTDNA Ancient Origins
Hunter-gatherer 50%
Farmer 39%
Metal age 11%

III.Gedmatch MDLP K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle:

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 42.61
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.62
3 Caucasian 23.45
4 South_Central_Asian 4.35
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.63


So analyses are just analyses, but from the 22 chromosomes the HG component ranges between 42%-62%. That's more than average in NW Europe (that's way I guess in certain tests my aDNA resemble that of Coon's Upper Paleothic hot spots...).

I guess this all supports your views of Loschour 2.0!  :Great:

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## srdceleva

Looks Scandinavian to me

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## MOESAN

> Before I posted I checked his biography to see if has mixed parents maybe but they both seem to be Swedish unless its granpa or granma or beyond (I will not be surprised at all) 
> 
> _Born in_ _Lund, Måns Zelmerlöw is the son of Birgitta Sahlén, a professor at Lund University, and surgeon Sven-Olof Zelmerlöw.[2][3] Zelmerlöw studied music in high school in Lund_
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A5ns_Zelmerl%C3%B6w. However I agree he does not what you call a typical Swedish look, but seems that he is Swedish enough :)


some Jewish background? Zelmerlöw seems a "dutch-germanic" name and some Polish names seem appearing among people of the same second name in the genealogy of homonyms (taken as a 'patronymic' first name sometimes) - father chirurgian... I avow I don't know - second name present in Sweden, DK and Belgium if I rely on the net (a dangerous thing sometimes)
that said I knowed a Swedish footballer Kindvall whose features were not too different. Pleasant features all the way.

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## Northener

> some Jewish background? Zelmerlöw seems a "dutch-germanic" name and some Polish names seem appearing among people of the same second name in the genealogy of homonyms (taken as a 'patronymic' first name sometimes) - father chirurgian... I avow I don't know - second name present in Sweden, DK and Belgium if I rely on the net (a dangerous thing sometimes)
> that said I knowed a Swedish footballer Kindvall whose features were not too different. Pleasant features all the way.


Zelmerlöw no Dutch conotation Moesan.....typical German.

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## MOESAN

I was thinking in a "metissed" name (change of country) because I did not find any surname in true German beginning with a Zelm-, only Selm (pronounced /zèlm/);so I SUPPOSED a half "dutchized" German name, what is never impossible at first sight; I confess it's a guess, no more to say on my side.

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