# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

## Dorianfinder

Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach.

The Vlach people are primarily pastoralists involved in the raising of livestock, they have inhabited the mountains of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the former Yugoslavia and profess the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. Traditionally they spoke a proto-Romanian language and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups. 

This figure illustrates two of the three origin theories as proposed by Bosch et al. (2005), namely that the Vlachs originated from either the Dacians or the Thracians along the Danube.

In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although *a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out*.'

'All the Balkan populations analysed here were genetically homogeneous with the exception of some Aromun samples. This was particularly evident with the Y chromosome, as both haplogroup and 19 STR haplotype based data showed significant differences among the Aromun groups. Therefore, it seems that the Aromun populations *do not constitute a homogeneous group* separated from the rest of the Balkan populations, but that they *present relative heterogeneity*, especially for paternal lineage composition, between themselves.'

Bosch et al. (2005) posit the following theories regarding the possible origins of the Vlach:
1. Latinized Greeks
2. Descendants of Dacians who lived north of the Danube
3. Descendants of Thracians who lived south of the Danube

----------


## Dorianfinder

You may be wondering why Bosch et al. were so sure that any Roman introduction may have been minimal, especially as the Aromun population traditionally spoke a Latin language. They explained the Roman introduction away by stating that the increased frequencies of R1b in the Aromuns appeared to be connected to drift rather than to external gene flow (from Romans) as there appeared few instances of matches with Italians and a marked affinity with other Balkan populations.

The Bosch et al. study confirms what we are finding in Greek men with R1b-U152 on Crete and the Peloponnese. It appears the R1b in the Balkans was introduced before the Roman period with a possibility that the U152 subclade was introduced from Central Europe along the Danube and Dinaric corridors.

----------


## Milovan

I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia. I'm sure dacian and thracian blood is in the mix too. I heard they were in yugoslavia before slavs, and slavs inhabited what is now romania. Slavs moved into yugoslavia and bulgaria then a lot of vlachs left to romania. They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania. I think they just conquered the region and absorbed it's older inhabitants.
Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.
I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.

I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.

All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.

----------


## Dorianfinder

> I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia.


I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.




> They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania.


This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.




> Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.


The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.




> I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.


Bosch et al. (2005) found that Vlach STR haplotypes were similar to other Balkan populations, this included R1b (possibly U152) and I2 (Balkan subclade), with a general scarcity of R1a. This lack of R1a compared to the surrounding population is characteristic of the Vlach population and gives us an indication of the endemic haplogroups in the region before the Slavic migrations of the 6th century AD. Regarding R1a the Vlach correspond well with the Greeks.




> I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.


The map is based on a rather controversial theory, ignoring many other regions where the Vlachs were established. The Vlach people formed a confederation much like what is found today where in rural communities a couple of villages get together to celebrate Orthodox feast days and celebrate their traditions together. The region of Albania was not exclusively Vlach though, they occupied primarily grazing land in the hills overlooking the coast and were separated with the introduction of geopolitical boundaries following the Balkan Wars. Some families remain separated even today.




> All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.


The Romans may have ruled the Balkans but who were the Romans in the Balkans really, were they not people from the Balkans. How do you think it was possible to control the treacherous terrain without the support of the local leaders and elders. The Vlachs knew the terrain better than anybody as they walked across it every day, herding their livestock and hunting.

----------


## Bodin

As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

----------


## Bodin

As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

----------


## zanipolo

> I once wrote an article on a defunct group from Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe according to Serbian sources, an Aromun tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, Roman or Dalmatian according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.
> 
> 
> 
> The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.
> ...


i agree with you

just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta. 
The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.

some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.

Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190. 

I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic

----------


## Dorianfinder

> i agree with you
> 
> just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta. 
> The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.
> 
> some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.
> 
> Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190. 
> 
> I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic


 The Pamalioti and Pastrovici are mentioned in Venetian documents as title holders (benemeriti) and the Tuzi, not mentioned in period sources simply refers to the lords of the region between Podgorica and lake Scutari. These three areas were settled by wealthy landholders often described as the lords of Drivasto and Scutari. They appear to have been part of the ailing Byzantine Empire but found their place under the Serenissima as they had a good command of the local languages, the terrain and owned a commercial fleet of their own, based on the islands of Korcula (derived from the name Corcyra or Corfu) and Corfu proper. These areas were a Byzantine stronghold and were significant for these shipping 'Vlach' families as it was strategically situated between Corfu and Venice (logistics & warehousing). The term Albanian refers to the fact that these families were previously part of the 'Despotate of Albania' and kept their lands in Albania proper for many years following Venetian rule. They were not traditional Vlach but because they remained independent from the Serbian Balsic family and could not be viewed as purely Albanian the term Vlach seems to have been used as many of these families had Vlach ancestry from the mainland jus off Corfu, near Ioannina and the Zagoria villages. For the most part they appear to have ruled over their own lands surrounding lake Scurari, with a military and naval infrastructure based on various islands off the coast of Zeta and Epirus, they were styled as Albanian and Vlach depending on the source. They included some well known families from Corfu who were given full autonomy and titles of nobility in exchange for military support against the enemies of Venice. Because of their influence, these families often served as proconsuls for the Serb ruler, the Porte, Venice and the Angevin rulers during various periods. They were Greek and Italian-speaking, were members of the church of Constantinople, and owned large flocks of livestock managed primarily by the Vlach community.

----------


## Milovan

I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.

----------


## Dorianfinder

> As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.


I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?

----------


## Dorianfinder

> I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.


The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

*N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)* 
*Nea Nikomedeia* 8 149 *1725 BC 2470 BC* 
Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC 
Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC 
Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC 
Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC 
Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC 
Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC 
Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD 
Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD 
Albanians (12) 9 70 *250 AD 100 BC* 
Albanians (8) 9 59 *525 AD 230 AD*

From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html



The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.

----------


## Milovan

I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?

----------


## Dorianfinder

> I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?


Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.

E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.

Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.

----------


## Maciamo

> In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although *a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out*.'


The Aromuns tested by Bosch et al. differed a bit from place to place, but I think that this is due in great part to the tiny sampling size (19 to 65 samples for each group). You can't get a good idea of haplogroup frequencies with less than 100 samples. I would say that 250 is the minimum to avoid excessive noise and sampling bias.

Anyway, the Aromuns all had one thing in common. They have a high frequency of haplogroup E1b1b (around 17%), J2 (23% in average), I2a2 (also 23%), and except the group from Dukasi in Albania also a lot of R1b (around 25%). Another element that distinguish them from non-Aroum population in the Balkans is the near completely absence of Germanic haplogroups (I1, I2b, R1b-S21). Only the Macedonian Aromuns had a significant percentage of R1a (all of it Slavic).

It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.

----------


## Milovan

I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.

----------


## zanipolo

What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.

As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.

this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.

----------


## Dorianfinder

> It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.


I had a look at their R1b STR values and found more U152 predicted in the Aromuns from Stip (10 according to my estimations) and the Aromuns from Krusevo (est. at 4 individuals), both regions in modern Macedonia. This is contrasted by the other R1b haplotypes found in the Romanian and Albanian Aromun samples that displayed more DYS393 = 12 common in Anatolia. Overall the R1b picture in the Balkans appears more complex than a Roman gene flow would suggest.

----------


## Dorianfinder

> I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.




Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.

As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.

Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.


Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.

Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.

----------


## Bodin

> I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?


 QUOTE=Dorianfinder;378132]I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?[/QUOTE]
I am sorry I mised to mention Hellen contribution , because I was mainly speaking about Vlachs in today Serbia and Bosnia , I dont know much of Macedonian and Greece Vlachs, I also forgot to include Celts .I speaked about Roman mixing of Illyrians and Thracians after 9 AD , which didnt include Hellens , but did Celts. By my oppinion ProtoBalcanic genes are : E1b1b , some of J1 and J2 ( some come with Turks ) , I2*B , some R1a (comon ancestor before 11.000 years ) , G2a , some R1b ( exept Germanic ), T and L . By my oppinion I2a2-Din is not ProtoBalcanic but Sarmatian . 
Also when you speak about Vlach in XIV century in Serbian state( Pastrovici in Zeta ), you dont speak about separate nation , by that time Vlach is become social category ( again I speak just about Serbia ) , sheperds who difrently from peasants have freedom of movement , paid different taxes , had autonomy under they own leaders. They also use to have Serbian names ( some of them ) , speak Serbian (all documents are on Serbian ) . When Turks have conquere , Serbia they also use this special social category for form of unpaid soldiers who are not paing taxes but going to war instead , and geting lands for plaughing for that service . My ancestors use to have Vlachian status , I even have a sultan berat . That is also reason why Croats call Serbs in Croatia Vlachs - because they moved there in that status to make a wor for Turks or for Austrians.

----------


## Maciamo

I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably *more* R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably *less* E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority). 

The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

----------


## zanipolo

> Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.
> 
> As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.
> 
> Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.
> 
> 
> Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.
> 
> Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.


If you are trying to say that languages played a part in the U152 settlement , in which in italy is mostly in the North, then you language tree is in error because the Northern italian languages belong to the Gallo-Romance group and not the Proto-Italain group.

*General classification*


_Gallo-Italian_
PiedmonteseLigurianLombard
Western LombardEastern LombardEmiliano-Romagnolo
EmilianRomagnol


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italian_languages

I do agree with you that the Roman Latin and Romanian is similar, but check the lost Latin areas in map in the link below


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

To conclude - The only U152 to have been settled in the area in question would only have come after the Roman occupation of all Italy and the use of gallic Romanized men, be them from france or Northitaly

David Faux states that there is only 1.8% of U152 in Romania area.

The only other possiblity is that the celts reached the Danube delta ( black sea) , they have some U152
*Sometime between 400 and 270 BC western Celts settled in southern Poland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. Celtic place names even occur as far east as western Ukraine.(R1b1c10 and the Central European Celtic homeland)
I outlined observations based on the doubling of the sample size of my
R1b1c10 database at http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm.*

----------


## zanipolo

> The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.


What year are these vlachs?. You don't think that over 200Years of Genoese U152 settlements could have palyed a part?
http://www.revistapeuce.icemtl.ro/17...rlander%20.pdf.

merchants and royality was still using latin up to the 15th century.

----------


## Dorianfinder

> I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably *more* R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably *less* E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.



Based only on Dr. David Faux's database, but some numbers from the FTDNA project (Tibor) show a similar trend: L2 as a percentage of U152 increases as one nears the North Sea.

The sample size is too small and any conclusions regarding this graph for Romania would be premature, it does suggest that Romanian U152 is not of the L2+ variety.*
*

----------


## Dorianfinder

*
The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.
* 
*North Greece**: I* = 22.5% *R1a* = 18% *R1b* = 13% *G* = 4.5% *J2* = 15% *E* = 20.5%

*Vlachs outside Greece:* *I* = 20.5% *R1a* = 10% *R1b* = 21.5% *G* = 3.5% *J2* = 24.5% *E* = 16.5%


*South Greece**: I* = 11.5% *R1a* = 10.5% *R1b* = 20.5% *G* = 3.5% *J2* = 19.5% *E* = 27%

The marked decrease in I2 found in South Greece suggests a limited penetration from the north. 
The high J2 figure for the Vlachs outside Greece is very interesting, suggesting that the Vlachs are of ancient Balkan stock and not an imported minority of Roman mercenaries as some have suggested. High R1b figures correlate well with South Greece (20.5%) and it would be interesting to compare figures with the Vlachs in Greece.

The Battaglia study found *17.4% R1b* in a *sample of 92 Greeks* and 14% R1b in a sample of 57 Greeks from Central Macedonia in Greece. This suggests an increase in R1b frequency towards the South of 24%. This trend was replicated in the King study with *17% R1b on Crete* and *15.8% R1b in the Peloponnese* as opposed to only 5.3% in Thessaly.

Similar J2 trend exists in Greece with Crete and the Peloponnese (South Greece) indicating similar levels to the Vlach population studied thus far.

----------


## Maciamo

> *
> The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.
> * 
> *North Greece**: I* = 22.5% *R1a* = 18% *R1b* = 13% *G* = 4.5% *J2* = 15% *E* = 20.5%
> 
> *Vlachs outside Greece:* *I* = 20.5% *R1a* = 10% *R1b* = 21.5% *G* = 3.5% *J2* = 24.5% *E* = 16.5%
> 
> 
> *South Greece**: I* = 11.5% *R1a* = 10.5% *R1b* = 20.5% *G* = 3.5% *J2* = 19.5% *E* = 27%
> ...


The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.

However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)

----------


## Dorianfinder

> The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.




Were you aware that the Sabines formed one of the three original tribes of Rome. The Sabines were from the Peloponnese (Laconia) and claimed Spartan descent.

In the 6th century BC the Roman populace was originally made up of the Ramnes (*Latins*) represented by Horatius; the Titienses (*Sabines*) represented by Armenius, and the Luceres (*Etruscans*) represented by Lartius.




> However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)


You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?

Aromanian is suggestive of *a likely Greek people* who *originally spoke and wrote in Greek*, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was *exclusively written in the Greek alphabet*. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun. 

The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where *in Romania* and *in Greece* the Vlachs *still ONLY use the Greek alphabet*, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.

The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.

----------


## Maciamo

> You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?


How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ? How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?




> Aromanian is suggestive of *a likely Greek people* who *originally spoke and wrote in Greek*, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was *exclusively written in the Greek alphabet*. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun. 
> 
> The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where *in Romania* and *in Greece* the Vlachs *still ONLY use the Greek alphabet*, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.
> 
> The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.


They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority. If they were simply Greek, why on earth would they speak a Romance language and have more R1b than any other Greeks (even South Greeks and Cretans) ?

----------


## Dorianfinder

> How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ?


There are numerous examples where a local language is modified by a foreign group who bring their culture into the mix. The Yiddish language is but one example where despite the language being classified as 'High German' it *only* has a Hebrew written form.




> How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?


How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't an isolated eastern group of Greek speakers whose language evolved separately from other Greeks being influenced by native Romanian speakers?




> They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority.


Actually the most common script in Romania was Cyrillic, not Greek. The Bulgarian Empire made sure of this since the 10th century. So the fact that they used the Greek alphabet and neither the Romanian Cyrillic nor Latin is suggestive that they were originally Greek. Remember that the Vlach continue to use the Greek alphabet in Romania, exclusively. It has been more than a 1000yrs since they were cut off by the Bulgarian Empire. 

Genetically the Vlach outside Greece correspond with South Greece. The lower R1b found in South Greece is hardly surprising as the Peloponnese was repopulated by Ibrahim Pasha in 1825 during the Greek War of Independence. Not to even mention 400yrs of Ottoman rule and the massacres on Crete.

Albanian R1b has a different structure to the South Greek and Vlach R1b. There is an Albanian cluster that is common only in the Albanian R1b population. Similarly the J2 common in Albania is not of the predominantly J2a1b-M67 subclade found in the Greek and Vlach population. Besides the Arbareshe population in Calabria has about 3% J2. :Smile: 

Semino et al. (2004)

The Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret the Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans 5 centuries ago. In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters (i.e. Greek Calabrians) agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. So yes, the Vlach do appear to be Greek afterall, not Albanian. :Shocked: 




> If they were simply Greek


Wallachia (Vlahia) used by Romanians themselves, is a term derived from the Germanic 'walha' to describe non-Germanic speaking "*foreigners*". Similarly, in northwest Europe this gave rise to Wales and Wallonia. I don't suppose you really believe that the Vlach population was formed from the Roman incursions of 106AD. Such a small force of Roman mercenaries, all deciding to use Greek and bringing a lot of J2 with them. How funny is that!

----------


## Dale Cooper

I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...

Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.

Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...

When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.

For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...

I hope you undarstand what I'm talking about... similar happenings happened in rest of Europe, on areas of ex-roman empire...such was Wales, Valonians, Wallachians etc... With exception of Wallachia becouse Wallachians kept their Roman language even today, and isn it interesting that Polish name for Italy is Wlochy? I hope you get the point :)

In Dalmatia, latin Dalmatian language died 1898, and that was not long time ago... 1898 died the last speaker of latin dalmatian language on Island Krk in Croatia... Today in Dalmatia we have reverse situation than in 8 century, today citizens from coastal cities in Dalmatia call WLACHS/VLAHS people in continental dalmatia...

In today Serbia, you have people who even today for their nationality place name: WLACHS/VLAHS, but difference between for example serbian wlachs (who declared themselfs in nationality as WLACHS), and dalmatian Wlachs, or Welsh, or valons, is that dalmatian wlachs are CROATS today, and welsh wlachs are WELSH today, or valon wlachs are VALONS today... they've lost their sence for nationality as wlachs (roman autohtone society) long long time ago... and there is no genetical connection between croat wlachs and serbian wlachs, or croat wlachs with welsh wlachs or valons etc...

----------


## LeBrok

Here is some more interesting info from Wiki:

Wlah

The word _Vlach_ is ultimately of Germanic origin, from the word _Walha_, "foreigner", "stranger", a name used by ancient Germanic peoples to refer to Romance-speaking and Celtic neighbours. As such, it shares its history with several ethnic names all across Europe, including the Welsh and Walloons.[4] Slavic people initially used the name Vlachs when referring to Romanic people in general. Later on, the meaning became narrower or just different. For example, Italy is called _Włochy_ in Polish

The term _Vlach_ is originally an exonym. All the Vlach groups used various words derived from _romanus_ to refer to themselves: _Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni_ etc. (note: the Megleno-Romanians nowadays call themselves _"Vlaşi"_, but historically called themselves _"Rămâni"_[_citation needed_]; The Istro-Romanians also have adopted the names _Vlaşi_, but still use _Rumâni_ and _Rumâri_ to refer to themselves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs


I found the above info looking for origin of people for Galicja/Galicia/Halicja. This region was possibly populated by Vlahs for some time, as it is bordering with Moldavia where they lived too.
I was also trying to find some connection with Celts, because of close similarity to Iberian Galicia, but there wasn't much to connect. 
Here is what I've found:

*Ruthene dialects*

Several distinct dialects of the East Slavic branch are spoken in the Carpathian highlands and are called Ruthene (in German) or Rusyn (in Russian). These territories were subject to lengthy arguments between Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Russia for over a thousand years, today they are Ukrainian, though a part of Ruthene people live also in Slovakia, Romania and Hungary. Their culture is quite original, as well as their tongue which is usually subdivided into three dialects: Lemko, Bojko, and Hutsul. 
The Ruthene language is part of the southwestern group of Ukrainian Ruthene dialects, which include Bojkian, Transcarpathian (Highlander or Verchovyna), Sjan (northeast of the Lemko Region), and Hutsul. The Lemko dialects are very similar to those on the southern slopes of the mountains (the Presov Region), also considered Ruthene dialects. 
The Lemko dialects are characterized (and distinguishable from the Ukrainian language) by fixed stress on the penultimate syllable of words (as in Polish and eastern Slovak dialects, in contrast to movable stress in all other East Slavic languages); retention of the distinct vowel *bl* (*y*). Some verb conjugations are of the Slovak and Polish forms. Lemko dialects contain many unique forms, as well as words of Polish, Slovak, and even German or Hungarian origin. 
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/ruthene.html

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/sla.html

This is polish highlander/goral from Galicja in ethnic costume, left. On right Portuguese Galician:

med.jpgbogactwo1.jpg

Also there might be some similarity to highlanders from Albania:
Pants and a vest.
Clothing_of_Albania_003.jpg

I have no idea what to think about this, just pointing some similarities, lol.

----------


## Yetos

there is a big difference among Aromani kai wallachians,

vlach in Aromani comes from the word Villachians ->.... Vlachians and means villagers, 
there 4-5 kinds of Aromani, 

the kutsuk Vlachs which Italy consider them Italians and made them a kingdom in WW2 
comes from turkish word and means small 
the Moschopolis Vlachs in Epirus and Albania and some parts of Fyrom 
the Moesian Vlachs with their Famous Hero Georgakis Olympios who started Greek revolt in Ias Romania, 
the low Makedonia Vlachs 
the south Mountain Vlachs of Greece 
the Vlachs of East Bulgaria, 
The Vlachs of ex south Yugoslavia for wich I know little things, 

I don't know about the Vlachs Genes, but even they say that are 3 major Groups, 
the Vlachs that come from Roman Villas in Greece, farmers in Roman houses and plantations, 
the Vlachs around East Thrace, which were Latin Speakers of Byzantine Empire, 
the Vlachs that had Rulling positions in Moesia Romania, 

I repeat I don't know about the ex-Yugoslavia Vlachs, 

their Origin could Be either Local Balcanic (Greeks -Thracians etc) who were Latinised 
or from Italy following Senators that gain properties in Balkans,
remember that first Byzantine emperors were latin speakers 
and Con/polis was named New Rome, 

their connection with Wallachians I believe is small
words like Walha Valhalla and william Wallace are not romano-balcanic, but Northern 
at least the south Aromani you may here the elder call them selves V(i)llachoi meaning the one who live in Villas (villages)

It seems like the officers of Latin speaking people who lived in cities learn the Greek language like the famous Families of Rulers in Moldo-wallachia but the villagers don't until the late centuries,

----------


## gfere40

Hi there, 
sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language

Regards
Grigoris

----------


## Diurpaneus

Moravian Valahs DNA


http://neuron.mefst.hr/docs/CMJ/issu...r_21674832.pdf

----------


## Yetos

> Hi there, 
> sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
> However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language
> 
> Regards
> Grigoris


there are many kinds of Villachi -βλαχοι 
the term comes from Latin word for village compare βιλλα -βιγλια a kind of Latin house keeping and village, 
the word gets apokope αποκοπη Vilachi -i -> Vlach 

there many kind of Vlachs as also many dialects 
major in Greece are 
the Moesian Vlachs -Μοσιο 'η μοσχο Βλαχοι 
the moschopolis Vlachs - Arbanto-Vlachs αρβαντοβλαχοι
the thettalian Vlachs Kutsuk Vlachs Κουτσο-βλαχοι
are the biggest in Greece
smaller spots are 
the Vlachs of Nymfaion Nedeskes 
the vlachs of Peloponese 
the vlachs of south Pindus 
Vlachs exist in all Balkanic countries, and have no connection with Wallachia but with roman Villas

Vlachika is mostly Dialects of Latin which according area fits with the local sounds and words, 
most relative language lingua franca is romanian as spoken in south East romania

----------


## how yes no 3

> I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...
> 
> Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.
> 
> Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...
> 
> When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.
> 
> For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...
> ...


exactly. 
Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...

----------


## Taranis

> exactly. 
> Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...


The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but _being foreigners_ to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.

----------


## how yes no 3

> The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but _being foreigners_ to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.


i am focused on Walach/Vlah... in south east and central europe (Greece, ex-Yugoslavia, Albania, Slovakia) it is about local speakers of language derived from latin...
russian primary chronicle refer to Roman empire as Vlakhs...


can you elaborate the reasoning that claims that in Germanic languages it was originally about foreigners in general and not about speakers of Romance languages in particular...

----------


## Templar

I heard of a theory that states that:
Vlachs were pastoralist Romans (Roman citizens) of the Balkans who avoided being assimilated by the Slavs, due to their place of inhabitance being mostly limited to the mountains (Dinarid alps). They afterwards migrated to Romania which was underpopulated due to extermination by the Romans.

This would explain why so many Romanians have surnames which have to do with a pastoralist lifestyle. Example: Ciobanu

Source of the theory: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

----------


## Templar

"in the lands north of the lower Danube we do not find any inherited Latin toponyms: not a single name of a Roman town or any other kind of settlement was preserved. The most obvious explanation of this is that the Slavs did not find Latin-speaking inhabitants when they migrated to these territories in the 6th-7th centuries."

"Indeed, the Dacians have nothing or very little to do with modern Romanians and their language was not related at all with Latin ‒ there is no possible cultural or ethnic continuity between the Dacians and the Romans, and even if it was, it would be irrelevant with regards to the historic rights over Transylvania. The _Vlach were not Dacians, but an Illyric people, originated in the south-western Balkans by the south-eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea ‒ namely, the present-day Albania and Slavic Macedonia."

"_Historical records and archaeological finds show overwhelming evidence that by that time and until the 12th century c.e., the Vlach people, that spoke Romanian language and had Romanian culture and religious tradition, were dwelling in another place: in southern Illyria, from where the majority of them were slowly moving towards present-day Romania through a long-lasting sojourn in Bulgaria."

"It was in the 11th century c.e. that the Vlach language split into the present-day Romanian and Aromanian. The first group crossed the Danube and settled in Cumania, then re-named Walachia after them. The earliest records of their presence in Transylvania do not precede the 13th century c.e, when Romanians were offered asylum by the Hungarian Kingdom after the Turks seized Walachia."

----------


## Diurpaneus

@Templar


Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.
Scottish people are shepherds.Are they Vlahs too?
You don't have Hong-Kong like density in Albania.
Magyar chronicle says that when they entered Hungary they encountered Slavs and Vlahs.Anonymous-"Slavi, Bulgarii, et Blachi ac pastores Romanorum." 
Romanian and Slavic languages both expanded as lingua franca(through Christianity) explaining why these languages are remarcably homogenous.



Why Regalianus claimed that he is descendant of Dacian king Decebalus?
The local people elected him Roman Emperor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regalianus



So what do you think about Galerius?
Was he nuts or many Dacians lived in the Roman Empire?

"Whatever, by the laws of war, conquerors had done to the conquered, the like did this man presume to perpetrate against Romans and the subjects of Rome, because his forefathers had been made liable to a like tax imposed by the victorious Trajan, as a penalty on the Dacians for their frequent rebellions."
"Long ago, indeed, and at the very time of his obtaining sovereign power, he had avowed himself the enemy of the Roman name; and he proposed that the empire should be called, not the Roman, but the Dacian empire."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galerius


Vulgar Latin "daca"-Dacian knife

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none

http://www.hadrians-wall.org/page.as...ald-Roman-Fort

----------


## Templar

> Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.


I never said I supported the theory :P. Just said it was interesting and maybe even plausible.

----------


## gfere40

Hi, 
very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania? 

Grigoris

----------


## Yetos

> Hi, 
> very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania? 
> 
> Grigoris



That is because you are not aromani Vlach, But romanian who thinks he is Vlach,

Ειναι απλο, ρωτα ολουσ τους τοπικους συνδεσμους Βλαχοφωνων να σου πουν, οχι μονο στην Ελλαδα αλλα σε ολα τα βαλκανια.
το αν ο παππουσ ηταν ρουμανος δεν σημαινει οτι ηταν Βλαχος, 
η γλωσσικη συγγενεια δεν σημαινει καταγωγη


οποιος ξερει Λατινικα δεν σημαινει οτι ειναι Βλαχος.


Everyone who knows Latin does not mean he is a Vlach

----------


## NickP

The Vlachs and Aromanians are an interesting group. I think they do represent the original inhabitants of the Balkan region, as well as other people they absorbed. It's possible they and Romanians were closer together at one point, because their language is believed not to have split much earlier than a thousand years ago. There was probably a proto-Vlach/Romanian area on both sides of the Danube in southwestern Romanian and northeastern Serbia, while some say it was further south around Albania/Illyria. It's possible they split and went different ways, with Daco-Romanians expanding north and assimilating more Slavic peoples who already lived there, such as in northern Transylvania and Moldova, while Aromanians went south and absorbed Greek influences. But we don't know for sure. Some studies I've seen put the Vlachs as somewhat distinct from their neighbors genetically. I've also noticed some similarities with them and the Sarakatsani people of Greece, who are sometimes linked with Thracians.

I know J is important in many Vlach populations, and I thought R1a was relatively low, while R1b was higher. Guess it depends on the region.
Btw is E1b1b necessarily proven to be Illyrian and such? Given it's origins?

----------


## Malsori

> I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.
> 
> I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.


Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.

Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.









> The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.
> 
> Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:
> 
> *N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)* 
> *Nea Nikomedeia* 8 149 *1725 BC 2470 BC* 
> Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC 
> Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC 
> Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC 
> ...


All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.

----------


## Templar

> so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.


R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.

----------


## zanipolo

> Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.
> 
> Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I recently read some notes/books, that the Albanians with their strong HG *E* ( which is an african hg) originated from a mix of african and phoenician people, these where called Libby-Phoenicians and they where the elite of hannibals armies. They moved to the shores of albania in small numbers and mixed with the ruling macedonian-epirote people under Philip V of Macedonia. 
*Albanian is the strangest Indo European language because it doesn't share the word snow with any other Indo European language. That means Albanians didn't come from Caspian Sea with other Indo European tribes but from Phoenician shores.* 

*The oldest Phoenician colony were along Albanian shores:
Aulon-a from Elon or Elion (Phoenician) A name of the sun, recognized as one of the highest active deities or cosmic energies by the Phoenicians; rendered in Greek as 'Elioun. The Hebrew form of this word is found in the Bible in the phrase 'El `elyon, "the God or Divinity on high."
- Elyssium, Elysium from Tyrian princess Elissar or Elyssa (Dido in Greek).
- Foinike from Phoenician
- Lissus from Phoenician colony in Lixus
- Albanian Tosk dialect from Phoenician colony in Toscanos*

*Leptis Magna
An important Phoenician city, Leptis Magna was later conquered by the Romans and is now an impressive archaeological site near Tripoli.* ( origin of the libby-phoenicians, east of modern tripoli )


Besides I believe the illyrians where named illyrians due to a geographical area and where not one race. There languages and genes where different to each other.
- The albanians name was only first used in 150AD, so either they hid in the mountains unseen for 1000 years or they migrated into the balkans late

Now , do I believe that albanians came from the libyan shores - well no ..............
do i beleive they originated in albania - No
do I believe they where illyrian - no 
Since the majority of albanins are E hg, where did they come - this is the mistery

bold text is copied from elsewhere

----------


## Malsori

^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.

The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.




> R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.


R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.

Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?


http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php...c_1_fig008.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhtha...S28-poE-CT.png

Apparently R1b U152 is most diverse in Western Poland.

----------


## Yetos

> ^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.
> 
> The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.
> 
> 
> 
> R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.
> 
> Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?
> ...



E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans 

Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones 

Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant 

(Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician) 

possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era

considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.

Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
since Akkado-Cyprus knew and had unlimited copper

by what I remember the highest peaks are in Greece and not in Albania (where are highest numbers) and mainly in areas were Achaians settled and not Arbanites, 
E-V13 drops to Arberesh and Arbanites (correct me if I am wrong) and in many other Greek populations.

I even hear and read that E-V13 could come from liberation of slaves or Roman armies or Ottoman armies but I don't think so

I guess genetics soon will drop more light

----------


## Malsori

> E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans


Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.




> Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones


Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.




> Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant 
> 
> (Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician) 
> 
> possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era
> 
> considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.
> 
> Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
> ...


Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)


E-M123 Cluj-1

E-V13 Basarabi-10
Brasov -7
Cluj -9
Dolj -6


E-V22 Brasov -2




G-P15(G2)Basarabi-1
Cluj -3


I-M223/ Brasov -1
I2a2a Dolj -1
Mehedinti-2

I-M253/ Cluj-2
I1 Dolj-4


I-P109/ Brasov-4
I1d1

I-P215/ Dolj-5
I-M438/
I2*


I-P37.2/Basarabi -5
I2a1 Brasov -13
Cluj -6
Dolj -5
Mehedinti-1

I-P41.2/ Cluj-1
I2a1b1a1




J-M241/Basarabi -9
J2b2 Brasov -3
Dolj -2
Mehedinti-2

J-M267/ Brasov-2
J1 Cluj -1

J-M410/ Brasov-4
J2a Cluj -4

J-M67/ Basarabi - 1
J2a4b Cluj - 1
Dolj - 1
Mehedinti -1


J-M92/ Brasov-1
J2a4b1


J-P58/ Basarabi-1
J1c3

N-M231 Cluj-1

Q-M242 Brasov-1

R1b-L21 Cluj-1

R1b-M269 Brasov-2
Cluj -3 
Dolj -3

R1b-L48 Cluj-1

R1b-L2/ Cluj -1
R1b S139 Dolj -1
Mehedinti-1

R1a-M17 Basarabi -1
Brasov -7
Cluj -10
Dolj -8
Mehedinti-1


R1a-M458/ Basarabi -1
R1a1a7 Cluj -3
Dolj -1
Mehedinti-3

R1b-U106/ Brasov-3
R1b-s21

R1b U152/ Dolj-1
R1b-s28

R1b-U198 Cluj-1

T-70 Cluj-1


Sample size:

Basarabi -29
Dolj -38
Mehedinti-11
Cluj -50
Brasov -50






http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041803

----------


## Yetos

> Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.
> 
> 
> 
> Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.
> ...


That is true not only one but many 

it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying 

the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic 
Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older 

so your in post number #45 where you consider E-V13 as Albanian is accurate? 
remember Hommer describes people in Troyan war as Ethiops Αιθιοψ so he knew that Egypt Ethiopean people came to Mycenes, 
and I am certain that you don't believe when he describes Ethiops he meant Albanian

----------


## Malsori

> That is true not only one but many 
> 
> it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying 
> 
> the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic 
> Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
> maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
> The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older 
> 
> ...


lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.

The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.

And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.

Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.

220px-NatufianSpread.svg.png

And please improve your grammar skills.I cannot follow your logic.

----------


## Yetos

> *All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians* so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.
> 
> EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.
> 
> The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.








> Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.
> 
> 
> 
> Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.
> ...






> lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.
> 
> The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.
> 
> And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.
> 
> Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.
> 
> 220px-NatufianSpread.svg.png
> ...



Answers are here

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25568-African-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-in-Iberia


http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-terminologies



Question 
in which study you find that in bold letters?
the only diversity with E M81 and E M78 is in Greece and is exact 2 numbers
in wich searrch and made by who you find that claim in bold?

Question 2 
Balkanic E Hg is after botle-neck or founder effect?
and where this bottle-neck or founder effect occured? Cyprus-Levant or Greece Bosnia Albania?

Question 3
Do we have any Founder mutation in E hg in Balkans?

thank you



can you answer the questions for me plz since I am ignorant?

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)



correction: R1b-M269 Cluj-3

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0041803.s001

----------


## kronach

Hello I'm moldovan from Moldova and my mother tongue is romanian (usually we call it moldovan).

----------


## kronach

If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
3. Sirbu (Serb)
4. Moldovan(u)
5. Grecu (Greek)
7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
13. Horvat (Croat)
14. Leahu (Pole)

I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language

----------


## kronach

Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.

I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.

Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on. 

If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).

The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
The word GREEK or GREECE comes frome GEORGE, GREGORY, JURGEN, ERIC, YURI, YORIK, YORK and so on. That mean that originally a greek was a soldier of the army of George, that's why in Christian world George is one of most important figures and a saint. This George is the same Chingiz Khan wich comes to us from chinese sources. This George (with his greeks) destroyd the first Roman Empire with the capital city in Troy, and brought the slavs and turks with him and maybe the helleni people (I'm not sure about this, I don't exclude helleni were living there before George's arriving).

So... a lot of Vlachs(Lydians, Pelasgians, Troyans) flew westwards were they had colonies and local people were partly romanized(don't forget at that time there weren't living so much people as nowadays do). Historians called this era Dark Age because they were germans, frenchmen, italians(I mean from West) and they knew that this part of Europe didn't have much importance at that time. The center of civilization at that time was in East where Dark Age come much later and is still persisting nowadays. Some time George Khan ruled over all Europe, but later Vatican church tried to hide this fact excluding anything that reminds us the word KHAN. I've found a lot of traces of word Khan especially in the West like Canada = Khanate or like Vatican = Father Khan (Papa de la roma, Patriarch = Father), Canute or Knut (danish king). Western romanized people tried to oppose new ruling calling the germanic peoples to join them. It lead to the emerging of the Frankish Empire and Catholic Church, coz in that time two states couldn't have the same worship.

Do you know that frankish kings considered themselvs Troyans? Historians (stupid historians) consider this aberations because between Troyans and Franks there is an almost 2000 yars. Well these kings weren't historians so they could'nt know much about themselves. How could someone believe that a blind Homer (blind means he couldn't write) so perfectly told his stories about Troy to people that after 400 years someone who knew his stories could put his words on paper. In Moldova, especially in countryside, people conserved carols sung at Christmas having the main theme "Troyan Wars" and this people have no idea who was Homer, because these carols passed on from generation to generation and Homer had nothing to do with these. That means that Troyan Wars took place not so long time ago. But of course Vatican did all the possible to forget about this nightmare sending that back as far as possible (13th century B.C.) and naming George in chinese way Chingiz whose army had never reached the Atlantic.

Why Vatican was so afraid of these events with Troy? Because Troyan Wars mean the collapse of first Rome and a new one was created in nowadays capital city of Italy, this way pretending that there was no other Rome and Vatican Church is the only legitimate power. The new catholic empire was named Francia coz of the term FRANC wich meant FREE, coz they got freedom from the George's army (greeks). Nowadays FRANC can be found as an economic term meaning tax free. This empire was also called Leon(Spain) Lyon(France) Livonia(Baltic countries) from LION that was the symbol of Catholicism. For the Slavs the main symbol was the BEAR, for others in Balkan, Anatolia, Caucasus is the WOLF. The kingdom of Leon in Spain or kingdom of Livonia in Baltic region never existed, these are a reflexion of The Empire of Lion, the same Galic Empire, the same Frankish Empire, the same Roman Empire of German Nation. This empire fell down after a civil war called peacefully Protestant Reformation. 

This is a concise presentation of my views on history.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
> 1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
> 2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
> 3. Sirbu (Serb)
> 4. Moldovan(u)
> 5. Grecu (Greek)
> 7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
> 8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
> 9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
> ...





> If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
> 1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
> 2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
> 3. Sirbu (Serb)
> 4. Moldovan(u)
> 5. Grecu (Greek)
> 7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
> 8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
> 9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
> ...


I agree that Romanians,as a whole, are pretty mixed people(genetically speaking,not ethnic),but definitely they are NOT THE MOST HETEROGENOUS.
After all, this is the place where Central Europe,Easten Europe and the Balkans met.
But you can find here diversity from ancient times: there are several distinct cultures in the Early Bronze Age which probably reflects distinct background.

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...istory-pre.htm

Anthropology studies from The Bronze and Iron Age usually conclude: lack of homogenity.


http://iit.iit.tuiasi.ro/Reviste/mem..._2004_p245.pdf

Roman colonization and Migration Period also played a role here.


But, there are quite homogenous areas(not few,not small) ,some of them from pre-Roman Age,most notably:MARAMURES,OAS,,APUSENI/TARA MOTILOR,BUCOVINA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli




From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.
Horvat is a Hungarian name -bearers could be Magyars from Transylvania,Magyarized Romanians or Csango.
Rus/Rusu -does not come from "Russian",but Latin "russus"-red,reddish

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/russus


http://dexonline.ro/definitie/rus

Check out the Italian surnames:
ROSSO, ROSSA,ROSSI, RUSSI, RUSSO, RUGGIU, RUBIU, ROSSELLI, ROSSELLO, ROSSELLINI, RISSIELLO, ROSSILLO, ROSSETTI, ROSSETTO, ROSSETTINI, ROSSITTI, ROSSITTO, ROSSINI, ROSSINO, ROSSOTTI, ROSSOTTO, ROSSINI, ROSSONE, ROSSUTO, RUSSELLO, RUSSINO, RUSSOTTI, RUSSOTTO, RUSSIANI, RUSSOLILLO.

Ungureanu- Romanians from Transylvania were called this way by the Moldavians and Wallachians; it has nothing to do with Hungarians.
Arnautu-initially meant Albanian mercenary guard ,but the latter sense is "armed servant".

http://dexonline.ro/definitie/arn%C4%83ut

Neamtu, Nemteanu means inhabitant(Romanian) of Neamt region.
The same with Moldovan/Moldoveanu,Ardelean/Ungureanu,as for Vlah- it's not a frequently used name, Romanians didn't call themselves that way.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> This is a concise presentation of my views on history.



There's only two branches:Romanian and Aromanian- cause Moldavians are Romanians.

No offense, but this is Stalin's Agenda.
It contains "Moldavian" language also.
Unfortunately,still available.
His purpose was to cut all the links with the West.
Former Securitate fellows claim that Latin was a Thracian branch and Romanians are Pelasgians.

Related theories:Anti-Vlach propaganda from the South Slavic countries.
But guess what language did people spoke before Slavic migration.

Still,he did a lot worse:

Romanians from Basarabia and Bucovina in the workcamps of Kazakhstan and Siberia

http://romaniidinkazahstan.info/img/...ria_1950_m.jpg


http://www.flux.md/sys/upload/2009/1...-deportati.jpg


http://www.romanimea.com/images/Basa...agCopii2_s.jpg


Today Romanian comunity from Kazakhstan:

http://foaienationala.ro/wp-content/...i1-300x225.jpg


http://elldor.info/wp-content/upload...1-mai-2012.jpg

Google type:romanii deportati Kazahstan

----------


## Yetos

> Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.
> 
> I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.
> 
> Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on. 
> 
> If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).
> 
> The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
> ...



hmm it is atheory, but don't fit,

1)Latin and Celtic is a linguistic family which population I don't know how much fit with Romania and Aromani,

2) There is big difference among Romanians and Aromanians (Villachians)
the only connection is the linguistic and that with enough differences
I even heard Romania are Romania and Aromani are after Romylia-Rumelia but is still a theory

3) the term Greek is after γραιοι and not Saint George warriors it is an exonym and not an endonym

4) the case of Troyans is favorite after Virgil epic poetry, and not before, 
ON THE OTHER HAND WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT ETRUSCANS CAME FROM MINOR ASIA, WHERE TROY EXIST
THYRRENIANS IDENTIFIED BY ANCIENT AS THE LANGUAGE OF PELASGIANS (Thoukidides)

----------


## kronach

> From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.


You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.

----------


## Yetos

> You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.


Ok and in Greece we have names Like Germanos Boulgaris etc 
that proves probably the origin of some families, or the return back of some others, 
I agree with you but name Grecu means either a Greek from ancient times, either the Moldo-Wallachian speciall treaties at Ottomans era when many Greek mainly rebels moved to Romania, or local Rumanians-Moldovans who once went to work or live in Greece and then return,

Aromani people are mainly Roman or Local populations that got Latinised, 
Rumani are people from around Rumania (Moldova is relative to Rumania) 
Roma are the roamers, a word in usage sometimes is gipsies though not correct

Aromani - Vlach is a linguistic termination of Latin speakers in Balkans outside Rumania and of non Rumanian origin, 
in Greece there are 5 different Aromani areas and population from which only one has connection with Rumania the Moesian Vlachs or as they shelf called Μοσιοβλαχοι MosioVlachi

Vlach come from Villachion or Βιλαετιον a word that used in Byzantine times Meaning something like organised villages

----------


## NickP

Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks. 

Anyway, southern Romanians/Wallachians draw more toward the Balkans as an extension of it, Transylvania more toward that and Central Europe, and Moldova toward eastern somewhat. Moldovans were basically an offshoot of certain Romanians, probably originally from around Maramures in northern Transylvania, who moved east in the Middle Ages and brought their language there. But it's obvious that they mixed a good amount with Slavs and other peoples over time, even before Russians moved in the area and they came under Soviet rule, significantly more than other Romanians. It doesn't take an expert to notice differences between say northern Moldovans and Oltenians or Banat people on the other end of the country in the southwest (I'm not surprised the main haplogroups in Moldova are R1a and I, but unfortunately its not very well documented genetically). There's also some linguistic regional differences in vocabulary, with some more archaic vocab being preserved in different regions, and accents also differing from place to place to an extent. And the theory about Latin being spoken in the east and brought west by Pelasgians/Trojans or Dacian type people is completely unfounded and not based on fact or history, but more like nationalist wishful thinking. What kronach said is simply pseudo-scientific/historical and not legitimate in my opinion. It's rather embarrassing that some people come up with this but I'm not sure what you can blame that on. This forum shouldn't be full of this kind of stuff. Interesting, nonetheless.

----------


## Yetos

> Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks.



No I do not say that Aromani are Greeks.

I say that Aromani in each area they exist they share relation with the older before Romanization population, 

what I mean is that aromani tribes are connected with the local population sometimes more than in between them, 

I will not refer names but at a range where I live the phenomenon is obvious, 
we see aromani villages in short dinstances like 10-20 km that are not connected and not even married among them, 
the reason is that they belong to different armanesku tribes, sometimes they prefer to go km away to find a girl or a boy from their tribe, although near them exist armani village but it is from another tribe.

there are tribes of Aromani that are connected with Greek population, others with Romanian, Bulgarian etc in Balkans, 
Don't worry they know who are they, and with whom they are linked.

----------


## NickP

Yes, I can agree with most of that. Makes sense. There is plenty of variety among Aromanian Vlach groups themselves, even differing from village to village. It could be that they started out that way and were just Latinzed all together under a common language, but I also think it could be that over time in the centuries since then, they just absorbed and mixed with other nearby local people occasionally. Hard to say because their history isn't too well documented. But yes, some do feel more closer to Greeks or want to assimilate into the population, others to Romanians (many moved there that I know), and others just feel like their own unique people. And yeah all Vlach groups call or have once called themselves some variation of the same term, derived from 'romanus', like 'armãn' vs Rom. 'român/rumân', 'armãnescu' vs Rom. 'românesc/rumânesc', 'armãneascã' vs 'românească', etc. Some groups just put the 'a' in front due to the way their language developed.

this map has a theoretical starting area for the early Vlach groups and how they spread and went different ways, as well as the links to linguistic features of other Balkanic languages, which is interesting
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5...quesvlachs.jpg

There's also Meglenites who are similar yet separate in their own way. And the Vlachs can differ culturally based on the countries they're in, be it Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia (Cincars/Tsintsari), Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia/Istria, etc. Still many have had that traditional shepherding culture, and were believed to be somewhat nomadic in antiquity, so maybe that's how they spread all over the place. There's other branches of Vlachs that even went as far north as Poland and Slovakia and stuff and blended in the local populations eventually, becoming more assimilated than other places.

But anyway this is getting a bit off topic, I guess, sorry.

----------


## silkyslovanbojkovsky

Yes but this only talks about the vlachs in the Balkans,they also came in to western Slavic countries like Slovakia and the Czech republic. I would be curious to see their genetic impact especially on Slovakia, because that's where three of my grandparents come from. Also in my family we are quite dark and look very similar to a lot of Romanians.

----------


## Marko94

> I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.


LOL.

"Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
"Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava, specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento."
With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
And for slavs moved in south.
In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
This surname are italians and *NOT* ​albanians.

----------


## Marko94

> I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.
> 
> I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.


In fact in the past are Germans to "proclaim" them to be illyrians.

----------


## Sile

> LOL.
> 
> "Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
> According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
> "Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava, specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento."
> With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
> Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
> And for slavs moved in south.
> In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
> This surname are italians and *NOT* ​albanians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans

----------


## Marko94

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania
> 
> Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans


Ok, ok.
If the map mostreb by dorian is "confirmed" i "suppose" albanians before the arrival of the slavs they stay in north balkan.
If my opinion is confirmed it would explain why in the Albanian language have so low greek and high slavs.

----------


## ukaj

> What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.
> 
> As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
> This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
> The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.
> 
> this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.


Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high

----------


## Yaan

> Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high


Rugova are E-V13. 
E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant. 
Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.

----------


## Yaan

Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest

----------


## Garrick

> Rugova are E-V13. 
> E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant. 
> Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
> E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.





> Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest


E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et  al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.

----------


## Yaan

> E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.
> 
> I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).
> 
> E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).
> 
> E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.
> 
> But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.


In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways

----------


## Garrick

> In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways


In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?

----------


## Yaan

> In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?


I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :) 
E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)

----------


## Garrick

> I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :) 
> E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)


In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).

----------


## Yaan

> In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.
> 
> Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.
> 
> Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?
> 
> And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.
> 
> You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).


I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:) 
As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century). 
Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus.  :Smile:

----------


## Garrick

> I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:) 
> As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century). 
> Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus.


Yes, internet theories are frivolous, and we do not take in account. However your assumption about assimilation is very interesting.

I always thought Thracians as dominantly E1b1b1a1 people (with mix another haplogroups), but here in forum there is big group who argue that Thracians are dominantly I2a2+R1a.

Movements of R1a are interesting, because carriers of R1a according to science came three times in Balkans and only last time refers to the expansion of Slavs. Regueiro et al. (2012), Klyosov (2009) and another scientists claim that R1a is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans (of the existing).

I started thread about haplogroup of people who developed the culture at Lepen Whirl, east Serbia, 7 millennia ago. Researches of people in past would give a more realistic picture, we still here talking about assumptions, less about facts, essential tool (based on facts) are results of haplogroups.

We know now that R1a in Balkans in good part is not connected to Slavs. One of key questions is whether I2a2 is connected to Slavs, wholly or mainly on the one hand, or less (or not at all) on the other hand.

My opinion is that clarification of Thracian Y-DNA will lead to a clearer picture.

You write that events of the last few hundred years changed the situation. They could (ethnic cleasing, immigrations/emigrations). But assimilation don't change haplogroups, carriers of haplogroups remain, just in the case of assimilation they can be part of another nation (and religion). Your assumption about assimilation in related to my question is valuable.

----------


## Yaan

Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is 
Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din 

E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly 
I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks 
Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din 
E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous

----------


## Garrick

> Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is 
> Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
> Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din 
> 
> E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly 
> I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks 
> Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din 
> E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous


(I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)

In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.

However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.

----------


## Yaan

> (I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)
> 
> In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.
> 
> However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.


Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones  :Smile:

----------


## Garrick

> Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones


You're right.

I once saw on the Internet (of course this is not a science), some Ethiopian equated all family E-M215, and all peoples who have over 30% E-M215 and all of its subclades put it in the sample basket. So some nations in Asia and one in Europe derived as black peoples. It's a wrong way.

I don't like when I see that in scientific researches authors give root family without subclades. When someone reads n% of R1a-M198, it can be M198, M417, Z647, L664, S224, Z283, Z282, etc...

----------


## Garrick

> Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that.


Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?

----------


## Yaan

> Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?


Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis  :Smile:

----------


## Garrick

> Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis


Поздравления. Very serious research with the samples of 808 people by regions. Yes, such research is lacking Serbia.

For me it is little surprise that Bularians are close to Serbs (key is MDS scaling B.). 

Authors write (quote):

"This analysis confirms the position of Bulgarians close to Macedonian Greeks and in the proximity of Slavic populations from the Western Balkans, which is not the case with the remainder of the Slavic populations considered."

Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs and probably Bosniacs can be one cluster. Ukrainians, Croats, Hungarians, Russians are another cluster and they are far. (Authors entered Osijek's Croats, but Osijek is not relevant for this discussion, it is only one town with 115,000 inhabitants, one of the easternmost towns of Croatia, and in this town lived a lot of Serbs and Hungarians, mostly they assimilated today.)

It is interesting big diversification J haplogroups, a lot of branches, and R haplogroup too (perhaps for R would be similar in Serbia if scientists perform so detailed researches).

----------


## Sile

> Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis


I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands. maybe the migration from this E into Albanian lands occurred after the genocide by the Romans on the illyrian people .

to confirm this, we need data on thrace province which is under Turkey now

The I marker is a natural for eastern balkan lands.

The odd thing is the *albanian J2-M102 marker* is missing in the eastern balkan data


I would like to know if these thracian people had the E-V13 marker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

They are the only thracians that went with Alexander the Great on his Persian wars and another odd thing is they are lost to history and shortly after albanoi on the other side of the Balkans appear

----------


## Eldritch

> I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands.e .


What suggests you that?

As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?




> The odd thing is the albanian J2-M102 marker is missing in the eastern balkan data


The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.

----------


## Sile

> What suggests you that?
> 
> As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?


By the equal spread of E-v13 in the bulgarian link. it means it was not an isolated migration of people. The albanian E-v13 is all in a blob, it can mean a single migration.

The E-v13 could have arrived in thrace/bulgaria with the persians in 500BC. The area was owned/ruled by the Persians then

----------


## Sile

> What suggests you that?
> 
> As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?
> 
> 
> 
> The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


albanians have 14.5% and kosovo 14.1 % of J-M102 and 
albanians have 3.6% and kosovo 3.1% of J-M410

----------


## Eldritch

> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> 
> albanians have 14.5% and kosovo 14.1 % of J-M102 and 
> albanians have 3.6% and kosovo 3.1% of J-M410


Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.

----------


## Yaan

Or lets make it easy and call it J2b2 one of the Balkan markers. J2b1 is really rare( a bit in Slavs and Indians, so it was most likely one of the IE markers). J2b* is even more rare :)

----------


## ukaj

> In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.
> 
> Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.
> 
> Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?
> 
> And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.
> 
> You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).


the kosova albanians have 45.7% ev-13,the 2 biggest tribes of kosova is kransnichi an some from kelmendi,both these tribes are from north albania,,so i dont belive the tests were don in north albania malesia because both tribes are from malesia,,,so i think malesia albanian ghegs carrier the highest ammount of ev-13,,45,7% ev-13 is very high,,i belive when serbs moved downwards they mixed with ev-13 but failed to assiumate them like they did in bosnia,an croatia,montenegro also has high percent of ev-13 an they also are from malesia north albania,,very interesting thoughts but i think ev-13 was a first in gheg albanians an we know that the ghegs are very tribal an dont like to mix with other cultures i am a malesia albanian an i know that the tribes of north albania an into kosova only mix within same tribes its laws of our people..an the ksova albanians were once catholics an in catholic laws the kanun i lek dukagjini is still used by the albanians of krasnichi an rugova albanians of kelmendi, both were catholic tribes that were pushed into kosova with the albanians an serbs their,,in 2005 oxford an standford had done samples their an it very high in ev-13..

----------


## ukaj

> Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.


I dont know how correct these charts are because from charts i have read is much diffrent from oxford an standford uni,

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html in here you can see the diffrence if you abstract that is for free you will see,

----------


## ukaj

wrong relpy

----------


## ukaj

ev-13.jpg Look at this chart

----------


## Sile

> Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.


albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia

----------


## Toscano

> albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia


Albanians where propebly the inhabitants of Balkan together with greeks. Then the slavic people moved in and mixed up.

----------


## Skerdilaidas

> E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.
> 
> I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).
> 
> E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).
> 
> E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.
> 
> *But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.*


Arbreshe community that reside in Italy should not be used as an example to determine what hg Albanians of middle ages had. Reason, they were mostly Tosks that emigrated to Italy from today's Greece and South Albania with a minority of Gheg element, and traveled in faras (Clans) as mercenaries (patriarchal). That should tell us that such groups were most likely not divers in halpogroups.

----------


## Yetos

> Arbreshe community that reside in Italy should not be used as an example to determine what hg Albanians of middle ages had. Reason, they were mostly Tosks that emigrated to Italy from today's Greece and South Albania with a minority of Gheg element, and traveled in faras (Clans) as mercenaries (patriarchal). That should tell us that such groups were most likely not divers in halpogroups.


Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA

----------


## albanopolis

> Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
> they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
> they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA


They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.

----------


## Yetos

> They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
> They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.



*no they are the pure,* *the Arberesh of Hora Sicily are the purest Arber you can find, and they have the lowest Slavic admixture*

they went to Koroni Peloponese after the battle of Thessaloniki and the death of Maniakis, 
much before Arbanites invited by Latin rulers in Greece, much before Arbanon, much Before Albania,

*all the rest are Albanian immigrants, the true Arberesh are 3 villages Hora, sant Demetrio and 3rd is away from remembering now*

----------


## Skerdilaidas

> Arberesh community, especially that of Hora in Sicily and the other 2 settlementgs are consider the pure Arbanon that Anna komnene describes,
> they belong to revolt group of Maniakis, and are known much before Arberia of Progon and Albania of Anju.
> they are the perfect group to find medieval and more ancient Albanian DNA


Yetos, I see that you are not very familiar with the chronological events and overall the history of Arbresh that reside in Italy. They first started to settle in Italy in 15th century, and have no connections whatsoever with Maniakis and the Principality of Arbanon (except that some of them might have migrated down to Greece from Central Albania about 200/300 years prior to their journey to Italy). The Arberesh that have preserved their culture to this day are Tosk in majority, while the Principality of Arbanon was Gheg! 

Most of today's Arbreshe that have preserved their culture actually decent from the Stratioti that settled there in 1500s, that migrated there from today's Greece, hence whey they were also considered "Greeks" in the beginning.

Their most popular song that has survived to this day is actually a song about Morea, and how they migrated from there:






Anyways, I want to say again that during those days Albanians warrior clans were quite compact in y-dna because of their patriarchy. My region where I come from, so far from all the people that have tested are either R1b, E-V13 or I1 because of these very traditions. So, if such a group emigrates or resettles in a different region, would not be ideal to study them and determine what y-dna Kosova Albanians have. Same thing with them, they mostly moved there from few regions....

----------


## daniel1983bcn

Foarte interesant!

----------


## Diurpaneus

A Morlach pair from Split(the Venetian/Italian term is Spalato,which

in Romanian means "Washed"):









"The Illyrian name(Splaunon, Splanum, Splanistae) of the town Split (‘Spalato’ in Italian) – whichprobably meant ‘town washed by the sea’ – verifies that another variant of the rootword *pleu was once *spleu, as shown – besides Romanian and Albanian – in theGerman word spülen (rinse)"


http://www.zeitschrift-fuer-balkanol...viewFile/15/15


EDIT:

The morlachs were of Orthodox faith,mostly.

EDIT2:

A pattern of straightness.Should we try it again?

http://www.academia.edu/7453833/Bein...8th_Centuries_

----------


## Diurpaneus

Markeri STR autozomali





versus Valahia Transilvania Moldova Dobrogea 
România (București) [91] 10 10 0 10 
Turcia [92] 20 55,55 44,44 22,22 
Grecia [53] 7,69 - - 7,69 
Italia [55] 23,07 - - 0 
Croația [51] 0 - - - 
Serbia [81] 0 6,66 6,66 0 
Ungaria (Budapesta) [33] 62,5 62,5 37,5 - 
Polonia [93] 73,33 66,66 33,33 - 
Belarus [79] 100 100 70 60 

0-related groups


100-unrealted groups

Source:Florin Stanciu"Analiza genetică a populațiilor umane de pe teritoriul României folosind markeri STR"


Sample size:5777

EDIT:

The blood samples were taken from the suspects,victims or witnesses involved in trials,the database was provided by the National Agency of the Prisons(pg.12)

----------


## Diurpaneus

To our Albanian girls:


There seem to be no other papers,and yet,I know what you did last summer,you won't get away,


"Another Romanian vernacular word is dandur (stranger) inthe Transylvanian dialect, of which no mention has been made so far and whoseAlbanian origin is also proved by István Schütz. This word also provides importantdata concerning the length of the Albanian-Romanian symbiosis and the assumptionthat the Romanians wandered from the Balkan Peninsula to the north in severalwaves, rather than all at once. The meaning of the Albanian base word dhëndër (inthe northern dialect dhânder) is son-in-law. We could ask with good reason: howcould such a great semantic change take place? Here is the way István Schütz argues:We can only understand this semantic transformation if we know the unwritten maritallaws that are still alive in the villages of Albanian uplands. [...] According to these rules,the boy brought his wife to the paternal home, but the girl was taken to her groom’sfather house, irrespective of whether he had won her by marital agreement or simplyrobbed her from her parents. [...] The wedding proposal and the redemption of theblood-revenge sworn for the robbery were arranged by either the fiancé’s father or theappointed mediators. Also, a host of mediators collected the bride and accompanied herto the groom’s house. Once, this was the first time the boy had seen the face of his futurewife. Three days after the wedding, the young wife visited her parents, accompaniedby her friends. However, the husband did not enter his father-in-law’s house.Thus, he remained a stranger in the eye of the girl’s family. The fact that the Albanianword was borrowed in the meaning ‘stranger’ clearly shows that the ancestors of today’sTransylvanian Romanians once lived in the neighbourhood of or mingled withAlbanian highlanders, and also knew their local customs "

http://www.zeitschrift-fuer-balkanol...viewFile/15/15




,with this:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=97T...lygamy&f=false


EDIT:

"In the medieval period, multiple wives were often obtained through kidnapping."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity

----------


## Diurpaneus

Important words(mostly of Classical Latin origin) that reveal a more civilized background:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scrie


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%99ti

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C4%83iestru#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boare

Latin sOl Romanian sOAre


Latin bOreas Romanian bOAre

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/biseric%C4%83

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%AEn%C8%9Belege

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuget

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jude#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/merge

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo#Latin




They had escaped from the absolute shepherdry(Vlachization),the 6-7 th c. Roman-Byzantine decentralization,caused by the Slavic-Avar invasions,and the Slavic influences.

Jewelry terms without Albanian correspondences:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inel


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cercel


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/br%C4...C4%83#Romanian


Just a thought:wouldn't this semantic change imply a military environment(it certainly wouldn't be the only one),having the meaning "keep it low profile,cause the enemy will see you"?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo

----------


## Diurpaneus

https://books.google.ro/books?id=vWP...govina&f=false



https://books.google.ro/books?id=s6r...bsburg&f=false

EDIT:

Speaking of self-will,there is a very comprehensive Romanian proverb, composed only from Latin words:

"Cainii latra,ursul merge"="The dogs bark,the bear walks"

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Just a thought:wouldn't this semantic change imply a military environment(it certainly wouldn't be the only one),having the meaning "keep it low profile,cause the enemy will see you"?
> 
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mergo





This shift could had involved the (Danube) marshlands too,since Latin "mergo" refers to tacking some actions into the water(I dip (in), immerse; plunge into water; overwhelm, cover, bury, drown,I sink down or in, plunge, thrust, drive or fix in I engulf, flood, swallow up, overwhelm.)


In the Roman times,the military activity seems to had overlapped with the swampland environment(mostly on the Danube limes),and this association is also present in another duo, "paludem-padure":

http://www.christopherculver.com/lan...-urheimat.html



The Huns and the Avars were skilful besiegers,so the city-dwellers too could've taken refuge into the swamp's forests.


But the military factor might've been also involved in this process,maybe sometimes alongside the civilian one:the strategy would had involved ambushes, by using an unfamiliar environment for the steppe-people,but also to withdraw to safety for a better regroup.


A very interesting semantic difference between these two substratum correspondences,Romanian "mal"(shore,bank),which in Albanian means "mountain", could've marked the initial geographical distribution pattern of the two populations.

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords


The Albanians too would've been (temporarly) disclosed from their environment(the mountains) by the invasions or summoned to help protect the limes,thus,learning how to "walk" into the "swamp-forest".


Eventually ,both the Romanians and the Albanians had lost the swamps to the Slavs,withdrew into each owns mountains(because we have always had two languages),but they had returned to descend in it once again,where they had very few early contacts(possibly as temporary "guests"-the Slavs used to release their prisoners after a while;or maybe it was the movement caused by the transhumance) with the Early (Danubian) Slavs,as it is testified by this Early Slavic loan,before the metathesis of the liquids:"balta"(swamp).

http://www.romanfrontier.eu/en/about...ine-and-danube

http://www.danubeparks.org/?story=10

https://www.icpdr.org/main/issues/wetlands

https://books.google.ro/books?id=qTL...slavia&f=false

EDIT:These are my ideas.

EDIT2:

The Romanians were inland people,because the autochthonous "mal" mainly refers to a river or lake bank,while the Latin "tarm" designates the sea shore.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C8%9B%C4%83rm#Romanian

EDIT2.1:

For the Romanians,the sea shore(tarm,from Latin terminus) was nothing more than an abstract notion designating the end of the land.

----------


## Diurpaneus

"Without an own state, the Aromanians or the Vlachs were mentioned
in the Byzantine sources only when they came to be involved in some
way into the political and military history of the empire.
In Macedonia, they were mentioned for the first time with the
occasion of an event happened in 976. Several Vlachs called hoditai
(“travelers”) killed David, the brother of the future Bulgarian tsar
Samuel, on the road between Prespa and Kastoria. This testimony
comes from an interpolation in the chronicle of Ioannes Skylitzes
made by an unknown copyist who was obviously accustomed with
the local history of Macedonia.1 According to Werner Seibt, the
information comes from the lost work of Theodore of Sebasteia, who
wrote a biography of Basil II2. The word hoditai, which does not mean
“nomads”, concerns the same people who were recorded in the Serbian
sources with the name kjelatori, involved in the military transportation.
The name kjelatori renders the Romanian word of Latin origin călători
(“travelers”). Mathias Gyóni, Radu C. Lăzărescu and Achille Lazarou
sustained that the Vlachs guilty for that murder were guards of the
military road and that they acted as representatives of the Byzantine
authority against the rebelled Bulgarians3. If this information remains


questionable, there is another source that reveals the beginning of the
Vlach military units in the Byzantine army. Kekaumenos, the aristocrat
from Larissa, has remembered that his grandfather, Niculitzas, was
in the year 980 the commander of the Vlachs settled in the Hellas
theme. This Niculitzas, who was the duke of that province, was also
appointed by the emperor Basil II as archon of these Vlachs4. His title
of duke is an anachronism, because the commander of Hellas was
called strategos in Taktikon Scorialensis (975)5. During the lifetime
of Kekaumenos, the themes were no more ruled by strategoi, but by
dukes or katepanoi. Since the oral tradition from Larissa recorded that
his grandfather was the chief of that province, Kekaumenos believed
he was a duke.
The fragment belongs to the section Logos basilikos, considered a
different work by the last editor6. Even so scarce, the information is,
as has shown the Romanian Byzantinist George Murnu, a proof that a
particular territory existed in the theme of Hellas, a region that could
be called Vlachia. Actually, the source tells even more if it is read with
more attention. The function bestowed to Niculitzas in 980 was the
command over an army corps recruited from the local Vlachs7. This
function was received in exchange to the previous one, domestikos of
the Exkubitors from the Hellas theme, which was given by Basil II to


a German nobleman established in the empire. The Exkubitors were
one of the fourth cavalry tagmata of the imperial guard established
by Constantine V. In the 10th century, these elite troops were no more
settled in Constantinople, being spread in various provinces which
required a better defense8. Larissa remained in the following decades
the garrison of the Excubitores unit. One of the chiefs of the rebellion
of 1066, Theodore Petastos, was a skribon, the third officer in the
structure of the tagma of Excubitors.9 It is obvious that Niculitzas was
not downgraded, and this means that his new function was of a same
kind, the command over a tagma. In that time, besides the troops that
composed the army of a theme (peasant stratiotes who were mobilized
when it was needed), some provinces had a permanent force, a kernel
to which these stratiotes were added in the wartime. These permanent
units were called too tagmata10. The Vlachs commanded by Niculitzas
were most probable such a tagma. Being an important part of the
population of Thessaly and being good horsemen because their way of
life, it was normal that some of them were recruited in these permanent
elite forces."

https://www.academia.edu/18072996/Vl...pje_2015_47-55


"Simultaneously, the existence of the hussars "inherited" from the Byzantine military
machinery of the 10th century intermediated through the Balkan can likely be detected in
the southern border regions of Hungary in the 14th century. In other words, not only the
ancestors of the succeeding Hungarian hussars should be traced among the Southern Slav
warriors fleeing from the Ottoman Empire, but also the Southern Slav or Vlach population
that served in the royal army of the Southern Banat regions might have belonged to them."


https://www.academia.edu/4141874/FRO...IAEVAL_HUNGARY




"The Vlachs were particularly suitable for the Ottoman government's purposes,
not only because they were mobile (their typical occupations were shepherding,
horse-breeding and organizing transport for traders), but also because they 
had a strong military tradition".




Other Byzantine writers refer to to the transhumance of the Vlachs,
and medieval Serbian documents refer to them as shepherds and kjelatori --
a version of the Latin calator, "packhorse-leader", surviving in modern Vlach
as calator, "traveller". Their only other distinctive occupation at that period
was fighting: as hardy mountain-dwellers they were valued for their stamina, 
and their supply of horses made them useful adjuncts to any military campaign. 
The Byzantine authorities seem not to have trusted them very much, and generally
used them as auxiliaries; sometimes they functioned as quite independent irregular troops




Most of these early Dalmatian and Bosnian Vlachs seem to have led quiet, secluded lives in the mountains.But in Hercegovina itself, where there was a large concentration of Vlachs, a more military and aggressive tradition developed. There are many complaints in Ragusan records of raids by these neighboring Vlachs during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. The Vlachs of Hercegovina were horse-breeders and caravan-leaders who,
when they were not engaged in plunder, grew rich out of the trade between Ragusa and mines of Bosnia; some ofthem were probably responsible for commissioning the imposing Bosnian stone tombstones or stecci decorated with carvings of horsemen. Their trading links to the east must have brought them more into contact with the Vlach peoples
of Serbia and Bulgaria, who had long traditions of military activity in the armies of the Byzantine emperors and Serbian kings."

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm


https://books.google.ro/books?id=3or...obbers&f=false






The Vlach riding tradition has surely an earlier origin than the Byzantine era,since turma exclusively referred to cavalry
only in the Imperial Age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turma

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/turm%C4%83

Edit:

And alot of Latin words have been preserved in this respect.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cal

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/buiestru

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/capistrum

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sella

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/admissarius

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roib

Regarding buiestru,the first of the proposed etimologies seems the closest,since the suffix is Latin-derived,as in maiestru or capastru,
not to mention the obvious semantic origin- the fetter.

Edit2:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=2Wc...rsemen&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

"Between Kastoria and Prespa in the year 976 an incident occurred, resulting in the death of the brother of the Bulgarian or Macedonian emperor Samuel at the hands of Vlach highwaymen.
This is the first mention of the Vlachs in history."

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl30_2.htm

https://books.google.ro/books?id=-71...waymen&f=false


"The four brothers David, Moses, Aron and Samuel of the Cometopuli dynasty ruled in the free territories and in 976 launched a major offensive against the Byzantines to regain the lost lands"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzant...st_of_Bulgaria




"The core of the army consisted of armoured Boyars and Bulgar horse archers supplemented by Vlach cavalry and Cuman horse archers. "


http://www.balkanhistory.com/medieval.htm




Regardless of their supposed habit,the Vlachs who killed David were military men,enlisted by the Byzantines to fight against the Bulgarians,while others did quite the opposite.


They had a heavy military background as it is shown by these Latin words that had semantically developed in the military environment,selected from Cristian Mihail, "Modificari semantice...":

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C4%83tr%C3%A2n

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lingula#Latin

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cumplit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cumpli#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compleo#Latin

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apleca

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/applico#Latin

indupleca(to submit,to persuade),from in+duplicare

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/duplico

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C3%AEndupleca#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcina

It also means "pregnancy" in Romanian:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcin%C4%83#Romanian


An alternative solution,without necessarily deviating from Mihail's conclusion.

"Augustus's attempt to raise the birth-rate did not lack precedent in Roman
history. Valerius Maximus teils the story that the censors Camillus and
Postumius, as early as 403 B.C., had fined elderly bachelors for failing to marry
and sire children (Va!. Max. 2.9.1) and Metellus Macedonicus, censor in 131 B.C.,
made a speech urging men to marry and procreate, which was read out to the
Senate by Augustus in support of his own legislation (Suet. Aug. 89.2). However
it seems unlikely that Augustus's attempts to solve the problem were very successfu!.
Tacitus states explicitly that they were not (Tac. Ann. 3.25) and in view of the
fact that the Augustan legislation was reinforced by Domitian and re-enacted in thesecond and third centuries A.D. it seems that the low birth-rate continued. Jones
disagrees with this view and argues that there was a slow but appreciable increase
in the birth-rate following Augustus's legislation.
Nevertheless there is considerable evidence for the existence of
marriages which produced no children at all or only one child, as &lsdon shows
a.p.V.D. Balsdon, Roman Women [London 1962] pp. 194ff.)."

http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/128/Devine.pdf

EDIT:

A consequence of a multitask legion?(Romanian copil=child,Albanian kopil=bastard)


https://powerimagepropaganda.files.w...illon-2006.pdf

 :Sad: 

Or just Thracians?(The child as a burden)

"they sell their children and let their maidens commerce with whatever men they please"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

https://books.google.ro/books?id=5xt...20born&f=false


sarcinam effundit, i. e. brings forth, Ph

http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=1014627

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Vlachs from historical Poland,Ukraine and Russia




from "The Annals of UVAN,vol.IV-V,1955"


"During the Great Northern War (1700-1721) a considerable
number of Moldavians served in the Russian army"(pg.40)


"The Hungarian and Moldavian regiments, formed from these recruits, were stationed
in the Ukraine"(pg.40)




"In October 1751, Khorvat brought the first party of settlers to
Kiev, which at that time was the gathering and distributing point
for all foreign immigrants; it numbered only 208 people, including
women and children. Khorvat proceeded to St. Petersburg,
wThere he submitted a more detailed plan of colonization. This
time, he proposed to settle sixteen thousand people instead of
the original figure of three thousand, to be divided into four
regiments, two Hussar and two Pandur infantry, each of four
thousand people. In addition to the Serbs, Khorvat intended to
recruit Macedonians, Moldavians and persons of other nationalities."(pg.44)


"By orders of Ševic and Preradovic,
up to one hundred Moldavian and Walachian families were
settled in winter quarters and farmsteads of the Ukrainian villages
of Nyzhnye on the Sivers’kyi Donets in 1754, where they
founded Nyzhnya settlements."pg.72


"When in 1763 the Senate authorized Khorvat to admit
Bulgarian and Moldavian settlers living in Poland, it enjoined
both him and Glebov to watch that no Poles moved in with these
colonists"pg.80


It appears from the proposal submitted by Khorvat to the
government as well as from the charter granted to him on January
11, 1752 that the immigrants to Russia were to be of “Serbian,
Macedonian, Bulgarian and Moldavian nationality” and Orthodox
faith(pg.102)




The planned exodus of the Moldavians alarmed the Porte. In
1753, the pasha of Bendery approached the Polish authority and
demanded that the Moldavians heading for Nova Serbiya through
Poland be stopped and returned to Bendery. Tatar posts were
set up along the border to intercept the emigrants. Vasyl Movchan,
who reported to the Russian government on the situation
in Bendery, wrote to the Vice-Governor of Kiev, Kostyuryn,
that “everybody has rebelled” in Moldavia and “they all are
fleeing there [i. e., to Nova Serbiya].”328 It must be added, however,
that the practical value of this undertaking was slight,
since only a few Moldavians and Vlakhs settled in Nova Serbiya
this time.(pg.104)




"At a later date a fourth regiment, the Moldavian Hussar,
was settled in the Yelizavetgrad district(pg.188)


"In the Catherine district the land was divided among various
regiments. At first, it was decided in 1764 to form one
Hussar regiment out of the two formerly commanded by Ševic
and Preradovic, to add three Lancer regiments to it, and to
move the Moldavian Hussar regiment from Kiev"(pg.188)




By 1765, the activity of the special recruiting agents had
become energetic. Colonel Filipových, assisted by a certain
Myrolyub, Major Bashkovych, Lieutenants Roste, Stefanov,
Chechuliy, Ratmet, Nikolayev, Fedorov and others were sent
abroad in that year. They recruited Moldavians and Vlakhs,
Bulgarians, Greeks, Prussians, and “the Emperor’s subjects”
(inhabitants of the Austrian Empire)All new colonistst
were first settled in Kiev’s Podol. From there, they were
distributed among the various provinces, including New Russia.(pg.250-251)






"Many Vlakhs and Moldavians arrived in the New Russia
province between 1760 and 1770. Jassy and Focsani lost a
large percentage of their population by 1765 and the whole
monastery of Buzuluk moved to New Russia. The movement
of Vlakhs and Moldavians increased during the Turkish War,
since Moldavians serving in the Turkish army were eager to desert
and settle in New Russia. For instance, a large Moldavian
and Walachian unit commanded by Skarzhyns’ki moved to
New Russia and was allotted lands along the Southern Bug,
forming the nucleus of the Bug regiment.101
Colonel Vasili Lupul-Zverev, an officer of the Russian army,
was particularly active in persuading Moldavians to migrate
to the New Russia province. Acting in the name of the Russian
government, he dispatched a number of manifestoes in
1769, stating that Catherine II had appointed him “to receive
and escort people of his nationality into i:he Nova Serbiya
land.” Lupul-Zverev advised all Moldavians to leave the Tu rk ish
army and become subjects of the “Orthodox Empress.”
Later, Lupul-Zverev claimed to have recruited over 30,000
Moldavians between 1769 and 1771
These immigrants were
organized into a Moldavian regiment
"(pg.253)


In all, Lupul-
Zverev settled over 15,000 people."(pg.254)




"Güldenstädt remarks that Moldavians and Vlakhs were RAPIDLY
ASSIMILATED among the Ukrainian population and differed
little from the Ukrainians in customs and dress"(pg.254)

----------


## Diurpaneus

"Further extensive colonization took place in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the Polish princes of Podolia encouraging the creation of large farms by Moldavian boyars;and in the eighteenth century, Russian generals took back with them from their campaigns against the Turks, enormous numbers of Roumanian peasants. In 1739, Gen. Munnich carried back with him 100,000 Roumanian peasants, according to the memoirs of Trenck, his companion; and_ in 1792, another great immigration took place. As a result, it is reckoned that there are probably half a million Roumanian peasants in Russia east of the Dniester."






https://depts.washington.edu/cartah/...rk/bc_29.shtml


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolokhoveni

https://books.google.ro/books?id=WDR...alicia&f=false



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magura_National_Park

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podhale-Magura_Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magura_Cave

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C4%83gur%C4%83




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/






http://www.academia.edu/4388454/Kumans_and_Vlachs

about the "tower"(=fortress):

https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvV...rtress&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMj...antine&f=false

"Since the Vlachs were faithfully fulfilling castle service, they were given
istimâlet, and their harâc was settled at the amount of 80 akçes like the filuri tax.87
In some instances, istimâlet included confessional concessions as well, such as a
right to possess churches, and the like. According to a report of Evliya Çelebi
in the mid-17th century, a regiment of the Vlachs numbering 1.000, was engaged
in the repair of the Buda’s castle, in addition to tax reductions, i.e., exemption
of the tekâlif-i örfiye tax, possessed three “Vlach churches” (üç aded kenîse-i
Eflakân) in Buda."("Being An Ottoman Vlach")


about the "tower" and the fitting into the Roman military-lowland(swampland) pattern(which was very closed to the highland one,especially along the Danube, Sava and Morava,because the Slavs had used the Roman roads and the Balkan valleys in their expansion):

http://www.staraplanina.eu/Balkan-mountains--map.htm

https://books.google.ro/books?id=qTL...slavia&f=false




"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas"

http://www.promacedonia.org/en/ei/ei_1.htm


"Dacians"(geographical)=the northern/north-western frontier of Diocese of Dacia,the Danube and Sava

"Bessi"(geographical)=the Upper Morava valley,western Bulgaria and the eastern part of Republic of Macedonia

The Romans and the Ancient Roman Emperors=The Byzantines,Romaioi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I...a_-_AD_400.png

"Finally, according to Ce-caumenos, the Vlachs are descendants of the Daciansand Bessi, thus geographically localizing the Bessi
to the territory where the Vlachs settled later, which isalmost identical to the territory with cemeteries withrectangular vessels finds"

http://www.academia.edu/1305850/Rect...ing_the_Roman_

----------


## Diurpaneus

Kekaumenos had in mind Simeon's Bulgaria,when the Empire had expanded to Greece(and Epirus),with almost the same western boundaries(south of the Danube) as Diocese of Dacia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...orBozhinov.png

For him, the Vlachs were "Dacians" not only geographically,but also militarily ,holding mountain fortresses and attacking the "Romans"

----------


## A. Papadimitriou

The Vlachs were nomads of Dacian origin according to Kekaumenos as you say. So the theory that they were latinized Greeks is wrong. This theory became popular in Greece since most of the Vlachs of Greece adopted a Greek (Hellenic) national identity. Τhe greek text says that before they lived "near (πλησίον) Danube and Sava". What do you think about the reference "where the Serbians live today"?

I 've read that Romanian, Albanian and Bulgrarian have one similarity. They have "definite articles" as suffixes. I've also read about an hypothesis that Albanian comes from "Daco-mysian" and that it has more similarities with Eastern Balkan Romance languages than with the extinct Dalmatian. So, that might say something about the origins of Albanian language.

The Greeks of Greece were calling themselves "Romii" (=Romans) and they were calling the Aromanians "Vlachs". Whereas the Aromanians were calling themselves "Armun" and the Greeks "Grek".

----------


## Yetos

> The Vlachs were nomads of Dacian origin according to Kekaumenos as you say. So the theory that they were latinized Greeks is wrong. This theory became popular in Greece since most of the Vlachs of Greece adopted a Greek (Hellenic) national identity. Τhe greek text says that before they lived "near (πλησίον) Danube and Sava". What do you think about the reference "where the Serbians live today"?
> 
> I 've read that Romanian, Albanian and Bulgrarian have one similarity. They have "definite articles" as suffixes. I've also read about an hypothesis that Albanian comes from "Daco-mysian" and that it has more similarities with Eastern Balkan Romance languages than with the extinct Dalmatian. So, that might say something about the origins of Albanian language.
> 
> The Greeks of Greece were calling themselves "Romii" (=Romans) and they were calling the Aromanians "Vlachs". Whereas the "Aromanians" were calling themselves "Armun" and the Greeks "Grek".



Vlachs is general term for all Latin Speaking populations of Balkans,
there are many Theories, Like 
Vilachs, from Latin Villas
Wallachs from Wallachia
Generally are considered :
1) ex-Roman Legeoners like the Pharsallos Vlachs Thessaly who come from Roman Legions retired and Desband to create 4rth Macedonica Legion (Vespacian)
2) Illyrian tribes, Illyrian spoke Celtic languages and not Albanian, specially around West and North parts of Makedonia Nova Epirus, and FYROM.
3) Cingueari from Legion V cantral and east Makedonia Fyrom and Bulgaria,
4) Local balcanic population that work or lived at Roman Villas so mixed with Roman/Latin speakers 
5) Local Balkanic populations that were latinised by Flavians, Flavians ruled Blakns and Con/polis for centuries, and officially state language was Roman/Latin
Flavians wrote CODEXes and not Kanones-Nomoi (Κανονες-Nομοι)
6) Few remants from Crusades spoted in few certain places

Vlachs in some areas means peasant (villager) 
Their inner names are from language they use. like Aromani, Armanesti 
there are group of Vlachs that have no connection among each other, and certify the difference among the tribes

Romania was latinised due to heavy Roman legions occupation, and goverment and education
Romania was Getto-Thracian speaking, and also has quite significant Slavic population, although speaks Latin

Even among MoschoVlachs, KoutsoVlachs MegleVlachs MoesioVlachs etc (big Aromanian tribes) etc lingusitic differences exist due to the origin of population
searching the village they come from you will see either a Historical legion disband, either a long time military camp, either elite Roman rulers fields and villages or cities (Λατιφουντια)


PS
the origin of termination Vlach or βλαχος is still not certified
possibly origins
1) well considering that are connected with Latin language many believe that is connected with Latin word for small self-suficient foundations call Villas
2) the connectivity of Armanesti with Romanian gave some the idea that has to do with Wallachia, area where Herodotus puts Keltos to Live
3) searching older IE tribes connectivity we see that Galates spoke Belgae, Galates were Gauls, but that G with B and W have a coonection,
Walles Walloons Wallachs are all conected Galates Keltes, probably has to do with a word for speak, yell, and possibly meant tongue/language 
compare yell Wall Gaul Kel and Γλωσσα 
4) it is certified that at Thessaly area at Pharsallos Roman Vespasian gave lands to disbanded Legions, Pharsallos is the same word with Versailles (compare Verenika-Pherenike)

----------


## Diurpaneus

Romanian "mare"(big,large,great,important;referring to objects and people as well) is a Latin-derived word(the morphology obviously points to this;similar to "tare" and others),developed in Thracian circumstances and backuped by the Germanic presence.


The semantic difference seems pretty big , since this word comes from Latin "mas/maris"(a male),but it must be considered the Pre-Roman way of thinking/life,where we have the following equation,


"big men= important/great men",and Pyrmerulas is not an exception from this rule,it's about the "Big Maize" as a demanded good harvest,as well as the"Great Maize",the divine messenger that ensures it. 




"The epithet Pyrumerulas (variants: Pyrmerulas, Pyrymerylas, Pirmerulas), which occurs as an epithet of the Thracian deity of Heros,
is obviously a two-component word. The first component is linked to the Greek pyrós ‘maize, corn’ from the IE *puro-,
compare also to the Lith. purai ‘winter maize’, the Latv. puri ‘maize’, the Church Slavonic peiro ‘spelt’, etc.;
the second component is an extension of the stem of the IE verb *mer- ‘big, great’ in Slavic personal names, ending in -mer (Vladimer), 
the Old-HighGerman -mar in names suc as Volk-mar, Hlodo-mar, the Gal. -maros in names as Nerto-maros ‘great-in-strength’, the Old-Icel. mar ‘big’."


http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_4d.html


"mer- ‘large, great’ [Church Slavic personal name Vladi-mer, Old-HighGerman Volk-mar, Hlodo-mar, Old-Icel. mar ‘big’]."

http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_5.html




"But the strongholds which now stand beyond Pontes he himself built new;
these are named p275Mareburgou and Susiana, Harmata and Timena, and Theodoropolis, Stiliburgou and Halicaniburgou."


"Nor did he neglect the fort named Burgualtu, which previously was desolate and wholly without inhabitants,
but also surrounded with a new circuit-wall another place which they call Gombes."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html


Mareburgu=Big Fortress


Burgualtu=High Fortress


The source of Aromanian"mare/mari" might've been Kekaumenos' "Dacians".


This word is absent in Albanian,a language that has many Latin loans of Romanian type.



English meaning: big, important
Deutsche Ubersetzung: “gros, ansehnlich”
Material: Positiv me-ro-s, mo-ro-s: Gk. -miros “big, large (?) in
Speerwerfen” under likewise, O.Ir. mor (das o from dem comparative), mar “big, large”,
Welsh mawr “big, large”, Bret. meur ds., Gaul. -maros in Eigennamen as Nerto-maros (“big,
large in power “); with e O.H.G. -mar in names as Volk-mar etc., further das denominative
Gmc. *merjan “*as gros darstellen, vaunt “, from which “kunden”: Goth. merjan, O.S.
marian, O.H.G. maren, O.N. maera “ announce, declare “, wherefore Ger. Mar, Marchen
under likewise, as well as das post-verbal adj. O.H.G. O.S. mari “illustrious, gleaming”, O.E.
maere, O.N. maerr ds., Goth. waila-mereis “from gutem shout, call”;
Slav. -meri in names as Vladi-meri(Pokorny)


EDIT:




The Celts were no longer present in the area after the campaigns of Burebista.


Regardless of the adoption of "burg" by the Romans and Byzantines,Stilliburgou and Halicaniburgou are obviously Germanic.


" In the older literature it was often thought that the Iron Gate region was inhabited predominantly by the Scordisci. According to the Roman historian Appian, after their defeat in 84 BC, the surviving groups of the Scordisci withdrew to the south bank of the river and to some islands in the stream. New excavations, however, suggest that the Scordisci left behind few traces in these places and most likely settled much farther to the west in the modern region of Srem. The Iron Gate, in general terms, was the territory of the Dacians and the Getae, tribes that were united about the middle of the first century BC under the leadership of Burebista into a cohesive and strong confederation, which was a clear forerunner of the Dacian state whose strength the Romans were to experience to their disadvantage in the first century AD"

http://danube-cooperation.com/danubius/2012/06/12/roman-limes-frontier-line-of-the-roman-empire-in-the-iron-gate-area/

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Aromuns,like all Vlachs and Romanians,had lived in "Bulgaria",Aromanian has Slavo-Bulgarian loans,plus the composite word "untulemnu"(oil),Romanian "untdelemn",literally "butter-of-wood", who is just a translation of the Bulgarian "darveno maslo".


The Aromuns(or at least their "Bessi" part) surely knew of Thessaloniki,preserving it in the form of Saruna(the rhotacization of Salona),they have also exclusively kept some southern-type vocabulary,hic(latin ficus),caroari(heat;latin calorem).
After the Slavic invasion/settlement the Latin speakers had withdrawn into the highlands forming scattered groups that had kept strong ties between each other through transhumance/pastoralism.
Kekaumenos view of Vlach's ancestors corresponds with this:they were "Dacians" and "Bessi", two geographically-separated communities.


The "Bessi"'s origin was diverse:from the citymen or farmers of Roman,Thracian and Thraco-Dardano-(and Macedonian?) origin ,who lived in towns like Scupi(Skopje), Naissus(Nis) and along the Upper Vardar or the Southern Morava valleys,
to the highland herdsmen of real Bessian stock,that had been Christianized by Nicetas of Remesiana .


The (southern part) of the "Dacians" dwelled along the Danube,especially in the lands situated east of Morava river,in eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria.They were of legionary tradition,the genetic base would have been the Roman soldiers detached along the Danube limes and,somehow coincidentally, the autochthonous Thraco-Dacians.




"Dacian" toponyms:


Latin-derived toponymy from the above-mentioned area:Timok(Timacus),Florentin(Florentiana),Archar( Ratiaria),Motru(Amutriam,Amutria),Ogosta(Augusta), Vidin-Budin(Bonomia),Cibrica(Cebrus).


Toponymy inherited from the Roman Age:Osam(Asamus),Vit(Utus),Lom(Almus),Iantra(Iatru s),Iskar(Oescus)


In the case of Motru,Archar and Ogosta,the terms initially designated settlements,which had been later abandoned by their inhabitants,but they didn't left the areas,passing them to the nearby rivers.


"Florentin BUL (Florentiana): possible fort (B-L, 227; Iv, 481; GMs, 28a)."




There are clear phonetical discrepancies between certain Latin elements of Romanian,Aromanian and Albanian,suggesting pre-Slavic differentiation,even if the Albanians had also received Latin influence of Romanian type before the arrival of the Slavs.


However,all the Vlachs dialects plus Romanian share a considerable higher number of innovations within Latin,than,let's say the entire Italian dialects.






"(d) The kw => p change in front of all vowels except a (a phenomenon of delabialization) in Vulgar Latin is seen in inscriptions and mentioned by grammars:
conda instead of quondam; coquens non cocens, etc. In front of a this phenomenon occurred in Sardinian and in East Latin only in the following words:


This phenomenon is not found in Albanian: Latin quattuor => Alb. katre, quadragesima => kreshme."


"Latin cl corresponds to Northern Rumanian ch: Lat. clavis => N.Rum. cheie. 
Istrorumanian and Arumanian have the intermediary consonant group kl:
e.g., Arumanian klem. According to Densusianu,
this seems to have been the case in Balkan Romance when it was separated from Italian.
Italian has chiave, French cle."(Eastern Romance-Orbis Latinus)



"The disappearance of the
Late Roman and Early Byzantine urban centres in Dalmatia and Illyricum
was not related only to the arrival of the Slavs, but rather it was a process
that had already been taking place for at least 50 years (approximately),
since ca. 548 when the Slavs had made their first major incursion south of
the Danube River.21 Therefore, the economic decline of the cities in
Illyricum and Dalmatia was among the main reasons why these cities were
doomed to disappear.22 The last onslaught of invaders, which took place
during the first years of Heraclius’ reign, just dealt the final, fatal blow; it
was the closing act of a long, ongoing process. However, the rural population
did not entirely disappear.
*To the contrary, the Romanized population survived the arrival of the Slavs,
and in a far greater number than was previously
thought.23 It was merely a shift of political power which marked
the profound changes in the former Praefectura Illyricum – from the
Romans/Byzantines to the Slavs.*"




"The cities of the Praefectura Illyricum had been in the state of constant
decline since the mid-fifth century; see: P. Lemerle, Invasions et migrations
dans les Balkans depuis la fin de l’epoque romain jusqu’au VIII siècle, Revue
historique 211 (1954) 281; Zivkovic, Juzni Sloveni, 55-56. However, during
the rule of Justinian I (527 – 565), a number of fortresses and towns in what
is today modern Serbia were either rebuilt or constructed (after 540); Cf.
Procopii De aedif. IV, 4, 116.6-117.10; 122.15-129.4. "


"*The population density in Dalmatia or the Praefectura Illyricum
was not equally distributed. Neither had the Roman population lived in all
of its different regions in equal numbers, nor did the Slavs settle in vast
numbers all the areas exposed to their arrival.* It can be assumed that the
survival of a long-standing name of some particular Roman settlement is a
proof that Roman population did persist in the area;79 on the other hand if
the name of the settlement became Slavic, the indigenous population must
have fled from the particular area"


"It is also evident that many terms related to the Christian rites in Serbian 
(as well as in Croatian) derive from Latin:
oleum – ulje, acetum – ocat, arca – raka, paganus – paganin, altare – oltar,
sanctus – sveti, vinum – vino, crux – krst, calendae – koleda, compater –
kum, panis – panja.81 This terminology is the definite proof that there was
contact between the Slavs/Serbs and the indigenous population with their
Latin Christian rites in the Early Middle Ages;
this also proves the existence
of an earlier ecclesiastical organization (which was established in the
ninth century, if not before)"


"This would mean that the Slavs settled in the
cities or fortified places along the main Roman roads, taking control of the
most fertile and arable land."


"On the linguistic side of the matter, terms related to agriculture, which
were borrowed from the Slavs, make regular appearance in Hungarian,
Romanian, Albanian, and even Greek languages, while the Slavs adopted
the terminology for animal husbandry and products related to it from the
indigenous population."


"The Slavs (Croats, Serbs, and others) settled in the areas around the
main routes and in the most fertile areas of Dalmatia and Praefectura
Illyricum, by using the network of ancient Roman communications"





"The Fortifications of the Late Antiquity and Early Byzantine Period"(Serbia)


"The social crisis that struck the Roman Empire caused striking
pauperization of the population, while the continuous flood of settlers,
various peoples and looters made the difficult situation even worse. These
groups benefited from the proximity of the frontier and the well-branched
road network to reach their loot in the flatland settlements and towns. The
Hunnic wrath caused destrucion of some important towns, such as Singidunum,


Viminatium, Margum and Naissus. It took plenty of time for these towns
to recover. The horrible times were exacerbated by the natural disasters
that befell certain parts of the Empire. The catastrophic earthquake struck
Dardania in 518,548 followed by a plague epidemic that decimated the
population and weakened the defences of the Empire.549
Insecure times called for construction of fortifications. Some of
these fortified sites were regional centres with military crews and a still
functioning ecclesiastical organization. Besides these, the imperial
authorities strived to build smaller fortifications on important strategic
points along the roads, so as to defend and oversee the communication and
supply systems. These fortified sites also served as refuge centres that
provided safe haven to the populations fleeing the endangered lowland
settlements. Parallel to the construction of these fortifications, smaller
ones were built by rural communities, to provide them with safer
positions. Although their positions changed by moving into locations on
higher altitudes, they carried on with their economic activities on earlier
agricultural fields with a shift towards pastoralism.




These measures created a new defensive system, born out of
necessity and reflecting how weak the Empire had become. The aim was
to reduce the influx of refugees that sought shelters in the south, since the
refuges were built in every part of the Empire; but also put to a heavy test
the barbarians’ ability to lay siege and to maintain their supply chain; in
addition, the barbarians were rather unaccomplished besiegers of
fortifications, which by then had no riches left to loot. In any event, the
smaller hordes roaming the roads of the Empire did not even pose a threat
to the villagers any longer, unless they carried out sudden attacks. But the
remains of fire on some fortifications, together with numismatic material
and relevant archaeological horizons of hoards confirm that settlements
were played havoc with, and speak of volatile times.550 This concept,
adapted for the precarious sixth century, reached its culmination during
the reign of Justinian, as was corroborated by the writings of Procopius,
but also by the plentiful material finds from throughout the Empire."
(from Tibor Zivkovic,"The World of the Slavs")






It is possible that Kekaumenos' sources of inspiration were the authors of confusion;these sources could've referred to
events that happened during the rule of Simeon of Bulgaria,when Serbia and some parts of Greece(where the Vlachs live today) were included in Bulgaria.
If this thing didn't happened,he could've misinterpreted them.
And,of course,there's a third option,where everybody(or more than one) is guilty,distorting things,but we can only legitimize it by referring to Simeon I.



Alternatively,Kekaumenos mentions the north-eastern end of Serbia( the parts "along the Danube and Sava"), not Zeta,he or his sources knew something about
a far-northern Vlach homeland,these were the "Dacians", harder to be localized because they lived beyond "Bessi".



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serbian_Kingdom_under_King_Constantine_Bodin-sr.svg

EDIT:

Apologies for the chaotic text,this is not intentional.

EDIT2:

clarification:"ch" corresponds to ALL the Romanian dialects

EDIT3:


Kekaumenos' text contains some errors,one of them surely big,but it's definitely not a reason to absolutize the conclusions ,
the "Bessi"'s location matches almost perfectly the archaeological reality,the fragmentation of this group("Dacians"-"Bessi")
was also recorded,the Danube remains a logical location,but it was not among Serbs.

----------


## Yetos

Vespasian disband legio IV at the same area, where before Romans defeated Makedonians,
Κυνος Κεφαλαι, and establish a town named ceasariana there.

what connection has that area with Bulgaria or Romania?

Aromani populations have many origins, not one,
and many dialects, not one, 
plz name which tribe of Aromani has his origin in Bulgaria?

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Greek language had a heavy influence in the Balkans even during the Roman Empire;
therefore, the pillars Latinity must have been the forts and towns located along the Danube,where there was
an intensive and prolonged Roman activity.The second Balkanic core would have been also of strategic importance,
the Danube-Morava corridor,that could have been for the barbarians the easiest way to reach Greece and Asia Minor,
Athens or Constantinople.
According to the distribution of the inscriptions,the southermost area of Latin influence was the Upper Vardar valley(Scupi and Stobi).




These river valleys would have had,the most likely,much higher populations than the entire provinces where Latin was also used,for instance 
the mountainous Dardania and Praevalitana(it is hard to believe that in these regions
the Latin-speakers were the majority).


The Albanians probably lived in the highlands of Dardania,but they were very involved in the above-mentioned areas,both
militarily and economically,enlisted as auxiliary troops or searching for a good bargain.


Map07.gif

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...th_century.svg


It was about the medieval Bulgarian state,the Bulgarian Empire.


EDIT:

If the Albanians had orbited along these mechanisms,the autochthonous populations of the Danube,Morava and Vardar valleys
were INTEGRATED in it(thus, forming the Rumanii and Armanii),it is very wrong to call this process "acculturation",because
this isn't about the innocent and spontaneous frenzy caused by a happy polka.

----------


## Diurpaneus

The great majority of the Romanian samples(both Y-DNA and mt-DNA) were taken from the cities(Constanta,Ploiesti,Piatra-Neamt, and Bucharest,the big sample).The only study that mentions counties is Martinez-Cruz 2012,but it doesn't necessarily mean that they 
have used(only) villagers.

Most of mt-DNA comes from Bucharest("Genomul Uman").


This does not correspond to the demographical reality,the majority of the Romanians live in villages,not to mention that many countries had mostly sampled from the
rural environment(using the term "region").


I'm not saying we're Scandinavians(in the cities),but really,this is too much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...an_populations


Despite the "myth",even the southeastern and eastern Romania has at least the same quantity of(quite depigmentated) Dinaric strain as the Slavic one,caused by both early ( Proto-Romanians) and
more or less recent events (involving transhumance).


The Nordic("Germanic") element(or most of it?) is probably not autochthonous("Goths") in the outer Carpathian Romanian populations(Wallachia and Moldova),it was spread through transhumance by the southern Transylvanian shepherds(Mocanii) coming from the "Saxon"
region located between Sibiu and Brasov. The "Saxons" were German-speaking communities with diverse background:many or most of them(despite the name ) had come from SW Germany,plus the Flemish and Wallon areas. 
Of course,this element remains of secondary importance.

http://www.dgt.uns.ac.rs/pannonica/p...ume_13_4_3.pdf

----------


## Yetos

@ mihaitzero,

the headquarters of Roman Legion was today NIS, Serbia,
why? cause it is the center and the crossroad of 2 heavy traffic roads,
Egnatia Road, and the aquatic road Thessaloniki-Belingrad, via rivers from Aegean to Istros

but At borders Thessaly-Makedonia a Legion has disband, and we see Latin Speaking villages nearby,
also around old Makedonian capital we know Romans settle a quard, oh and we also see a core of few Latin speaking villages, there,
Following Egnatia road West, we know it was protected by Roman legions, oh another 2-3 cores of Latin speaking tribes,

Thessaloniki was East Rome, second city with power after Rome before Nova Roma, and east of the city we know Roman did not settle quards, but created villas to produce wine,
oh a small core exists there also,

etc etc

----------


## Diurpaneus

Yetos,it's inevitable to misunderstand somebody,but we can surely avoid to make it a fashion.
You're familiar with the very curious persons,I know Mihaitzateo,he's part of the same category,so I would be careful, if I was you.
Holding the shields up could be a solution,but it is a matter of timing as well.
This is not about you,the insinuations are only allowed when you try to be(with) a girl.
I can't say the same thing about mocking people.

EDIT:

Mihaitzatheo is either Gyms or they work in tandem,I know their operas very well.


generally addressing

I understand your concerns ,but you had started and you don't seem very eager to
get out from my computer,as I said,regardless of the circumstances, I won't let you justify these actions.
You should all know that my understanding and patience have a limit.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Septecasae(Seven Houses) surely presents typical Romanian forms,"septe" is the older non-literary form of "sapte".
This placename was also located "along the Danube", in the Diocesis Aquensis area.


"Mareburgou" and "Septecasae" are probably the most obvious Romanian toponims from the list of Procopius.

http://www.loebclassics.com/view/pro...LCL343.265.xml


EDIT: Aquensis is located in Dacia Ripensis,roughly the area near Aquis and Ratiaria.
Kekaumenos could've mixed up Diocese of Dacia,"where now the Serbs live",with Dacia Ripensis,"along the Danube","in inhospitable places"(mountains).
The only "inhospitable places" located "along the Danube" are E Serbia,east of Morava river,SW Romania,north of the Iron Gates,and NW Bulgaria.
The "Dacians"(or their southern part) who lived "along the Danube" in "inhospitable places" could have only come from the Danube lowlands, after the Avar and Slavic campaigns/settling.

----------


## Yetos

> The Greek language had a heavy influence in the Balkans even during the Roman Empire;
> therefore, the pillars Latinity must have been the forts and towns located along the Danube,where there was
> an intensive and prolonged Roman activity.The second Balkanic core would have been also of strategic importance,
> the Danube-Morava corridor,that could have been for the barbarians the easiest way to reach Greece and Asia Minor,
> Athens or Constantinople.
> .


Athens meaned nothing that time,
Thessaloniki was second Rome, and Achaia was capital south Greece

Legion masters interested on taxating the merchants,
so they settle next to every big, heavy traffic merchant road,
at that time there were 2, Egnatia, and Thessaloniki-Istros,

may I inform you that Nis had more legionairies than Rome, 

Legio V scythica is the main reason for latinisation of Romania

----------


## Yetos

> They are not pure Arbanon. Before they left to Italy they had been living for 300 years in Morea (Peloponeses)
> They resisted Turkish occupation of Morea until they were decimated by the Turks. Turkey was way superior in numerical terms, cut their olive trees, burned their crops, eat their livestock and the Arbereshe were left with two alternatives; Die or Go to Italy. Today in Arbereshe settlements of Italy Arbereshe are the majority but there minorities living there too.


they are pure Arbanoi,

they served general Maniakis, and they came to today Albania from Italy, they revolt against Con/polis, they lost their leader and moved to Korone, from there they moved to Italy back, due to Barbaros, Turkish admiral,
THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT AGAINST CON/POLIS, AND THEY NAME THE CENTRAL VILLAGE MANIAKI to Honour their General.

----------


## Yetos

> Yetos,it's inevitable to misunderstand somebody,but we can surely avoid to make it a fashion.
> You're familiar with the very curious persons,I know Mihaitzateo,he's part of the same category,so I would be careful, if I was you.
> Holding the shields up could be a solution,but it is a matter of timing as well.
> This is not about you,the insinuations are only allowed when you try to be(with) a girl.
> I can't say the same thing about mocking people.



sorry you are right,
I should have wrote @ Diurpaneus

----------


## LABERIA

> they are pure Arbanoi,
> 
> they served general Maniakis, and they came to today Albania from Italy, they revolt against Con/polis, they lost their leader and moved to Korone, from there they moved to Italy back, due to Barbaros, Turkish admiral,
> THEY ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT AGAINST CON/POLIS, AND THEY NAME THE CENTRAL VILLAGE MANIAKI to Honour their General.


Are you serious?

----------


## Yetos

@diurpaneus




you can see the 2 roads 
1 Via Egnatia
2 the river road Axios-Morava to Istros,

around these 2 roads many different aromani tribes were developed,
except Ceasarea and Pharsalos were Vespasian disband the IV legion

via militaris, the known road among Nis and Nova Roma, the road of Nova Roma praitors 
Nis was the strategical point, there meet the 4 and the 5 legions into 1 head quarter
as you see different parts create different Aromani tribes,
like in Albania, 
2 parts
1) from Vitolium Bitola Monasterion to Apollonia create MoschoVlachs, 
2) the road to Dyrrachium create the ArvantoVlachs

while in Makedonia we see
1 part from Thessaloniki to Edessa was holded by Greeks, the Rumluk
2) part from Edessa to Florina was helded by another aromanian tribe, the Nymfaion Vlachs the Neveska Vlachs
3) little bit south is Naoussa and Beroia, they hold the passages to West Makedonia and Ioannina

chalkidiki
most of the road from Thessaloniki to Phillipi was hold by Greeks,
But Romans grew villas at mountain Chalkidiki and grew grapes and produce wine, so at east parts of chalkidiki from Arnaia to Asprovalta and rentina we see Aromani of anothert tribe,
there was also latinisation of locals there due to Villas

Thessaly,
the area is out of merchant roads,
but land was given to Legionairies, by Vespasian, 
Turks name them kutsuk vlachs,
they have significant gaulish and germanic characteristicks at both language and looking, their wives were prisoners of war
ceasareana pharsallos deskate etc belong to that group, and live almost 2 milleniums there,

as you see, except Thessaly, the rest were caravan protectors, 
Legions job was to protect them, and took good money for that,
later when Turks occupied the land they transform to champions (tsompan=champion=protector)
and drive from secret passages the mules, and had sheeps for coverage.

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Aromuns,Romanians and Albanians share the word for fairy,"zana",from latin Diana.
Additionally,Romanian has also preserved Sanziana, from Sancta Diana.



"Both the Romanian words for "fairy" _Zânǎ[55] and Sânzianǎ, the Leonese and Portuguese word for "water nymph" xana, and the Spanish word for "shooting target" and "morning call" (diana) seem to come from the name of Diana."

_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)


https://books.google.ro/books?id=3Jy...0dacia&f=false


"The connection is simply by attaching the epithet Augustus to the gods,
and that means the fact that so is defined a sphere of powers. In Dacia most of them were roman deities:
Diana in 15 cases, Minerva, Mercurius and Hercules in 6, Mars in 4, Apollo and Liber Pater in three times."

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...r16mMZwL1v0Kpg


"Votives to Venus are rare, with recent finds limited to the shrine of the Julio-Claudians at Narona (RIV.37),
but Diana was widely worshipped among the hills and forests of the central Balkans, and recent finds include a shrine at Montana (Mi.4),
in association with her twin Apollo, and in the guise of Diana Augusta at Timacum Minus (RV.45)."

from J.J. Wilkes,"Roman Danube Survey"

RomanDanubeSurvey.jpg

http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/201...rias-svishtov/

http://danube.travel/activities/Dian....l-114.45.html


http://bulgariatravel.org/en/object/...repost_Montana


http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/201...goddess-diana/


about JJ Wilkes's remark:


The Danube area has many forests too.And let's not forget the etymology of Romanian "padure",Albanian"pyll":from Latin "paludem",a swamp.(really,don't overinterpret)

http://www.icpdr.org/main/publicatio...green-corridor

"It is calculated that over the past couple of centuries, some 80% of the Danube’s original floodplains, including important wetland areas, have been lost mostly due to drainage for agriculture and industry as well as flood prevention and navigation."

https://books.google.ro/books?id=nCG...lgaria&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

Imagine the Eastern-Roman cityman,he wasn't so lucky to buy the wanted fresh food,exposing himself to an inevitable situation.It is a sudden event and there are really few solutions for it
in a city,that's why he definitely needs a word to express his misery.


Deep in the mountains,the cheese-eating shepherd had far less concerns about this kind of disturbance:there were very slim chances to happen
and he could've found an intimate space very easily.




The word never reached the Albanians,suggesting that it was a matter of environment.
His structure too is complex:conforio,from con + forio(foria),it seems to be an urban term.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/conforio


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cufuri

This also looks urbanish,but if you add the right prefix,you'll instantly feel better.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dezmierda

NOTE:more advanced (Latin) structures,such as compound words,had miraculously escaped from Albanian.

EDIT:

Most of my suppositions had been instantly generated(based on few reading),because,without a doubt, it is the creativity that really matters to me.
I'm sure that many of them are indeed inspiring.(no irony here)

EDIT2:

Dezmierda automatically implies nursing,an activity that couldn't have involved(or thrived in) the traditional pastoral communities.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=1ar...empire&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=yxo...empire&f=false

EDIT3:

The semantic change/connection "tush cleaning"(technical touch)-->"caress"(affectionate touch) indicates a technical/practical affection.

EDIT4:

Unfortunately these two words were objectively selected.

----------


## Diurpaneus

hypothesis




The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.


Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
while basilica, initially a non-religious concept,meant a large building that was suitable for gathering lots of believers.


"kishe f, pl. kisha ‘church’. Another variant is qishe. Borrowed from Lat
ecclesia"(Orel)




The preservation of kishe testify that the Albanians and the entire ecclesiastical structure of their area
had developed in much safer conditions.The Romanians and the Aromanians were very exposed to the relentless
invasions ,thus the ecclesiastical ties were heavily disrupted and they only kept the derived terms
from basilica(biserica,basearica),meaning that they could have gathered only in large buildings inside
the fortified cities and fortifications that became completely isolated.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> I'm not saying we're Scandinavians(in the cities)


I was making the average,because the cities too have lots of blondes,
but they are proportionally fewer than those from the villages.
The brunettes,regardless of their skin colour, usually display
the typical Romanian traits(Dinaric and Dinaro-Slav) as
their main features as well.


Blondeness/depigmentation(I don't overrate it) is uniformly diffused
,without being conditioned by the ethnic or social barriers,a
normal DNA analysis would simply reflect the reality. 


Gipsy children from Wallachia:

646x404.jpg

----------


## Yetos

> hypothesis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.
> 
> 
> Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
> ...



both *ecclesia and basilica* are Greek words

*Εκκλησια Βασιλικη*,

first means the 'call' the 'gathering' from εκ+καλω = εκ κλησις
second means Royal βασιλευς = king rois Βασιλικη is the royal building AND AN ARCHITECTURE RYTHM

Βασιλικη was the name of the Roman court/judge building or town hall, that architecture style was used by early Cristians,


The Greek word Ekklesia _literally "called out" or "called forth"
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church

The Latin word *basilica (derived from Greek βασιλικὴ στοά, Royal Stoa, 
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica


the pure architecture style sprunks from Neopythagoreian school with 3 κλιτη naves (τρικλiτος βασιλικη)
but Romans expand it to bigger scale, and made 5 κλιτη/naves 7 etc


early christian building did had something different,
in they ram down the old temples and made them churches,
if build a new they had 2 architectural rythms/styles
Βασιλικη and Ροτοντα 
ροτοντα is Roman/latin word rotundus, are the circle buildings, 
Rotonda/Rotunda is the style of Pantheon at Rome
or Temple of Zeus of Galerius at Thessaloniki (ροτοντα Θεσσαλονικης), which christians turn it to st George

----------


## Diurpaneus

Without a doubt the main Vlach haplogroups were I2a
(it doesn't matter if it is inherited or not) and E-V13.


I2a scores 30% in the Moravian Vlach lineages and 40%
in the Serbs from Bosnia,a population with significant
Vlach background.The Vlachs that settled in Bosnia
came from Serbia,it is possible that the northen
groups of Vlachs had more I2a than the southern ones.


IF I2a was initially Slavic-only,it had spreaded into Croatian,
Serbian and Romanian-Vlach Dinarics,without consistently
altering the original phenotype or,in the case of Vlachs,
their ethnicity.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...682/figure/F2/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...an_populations


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

----------


## Diurpaneus

The definitons of ecclesia and basilica are not mine,I took them
from two studies, a Romanian and a French one,they only referred
to the meanings of the two words in the 4th-6th centuries Roman Empires
,because it was important to do so from the perspective of the
development of the derived words in Romance languages.


The words were indeed borrowed from Greek,but they had entered into Latin
differently:yes,basilica was also used by the Romans prior to Christianity,
while ecclesia had spreaded with it from the Eastern/Greek part of the Empire.


Albanian kishe comes from Latin ecclesia,because Latin "cl" becomes [k] in Italian,Romanian and Albanian,
written as "k" in Albanian and "ch" in Romanian and Italian.
Italian had also preserved the word in a very similar form:chiesa.




keshyre f, pl. keshyre ‘mountain path, path in the ravine’. Borrowed from
Lat clausura, clüsüra ‘lock, bar, bolt; castle, fort’(Orel,"Albanian Dictionary")




"Latin cl corresponds to Northern Rumanian* ch: Lat. clavis => N.Rum. cheie.
Istrorumanian and Arumanian have the intermediary consonant group kl: e.g.,
Arumanian klem. According to Densusianu, this seems to have been the case
in Balkan Romance when it was separated from Italian. Italian has chiave, French cle."


*Northern Rumanian means Northern Vlach,which is Rumanian.


My first theory implied that the Romanians/Aromanians too had initailly
a word that came from ecclesia.(But, since I obviously can afford to anticipate things,
there would probably be others.)


Ultimately,the presence of the derived term from ecclesia only in Albanian,
can testify the differention between them and the Romanians/Aromanians.

----------


## Kisuan

> hypothesis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The two words that designated the church(building) in Latin were ecclesia and basilica.
> 
> 
> Ecclesia referred to the "Christian community" ,the ecclesiastical organization and Church affiliation,
> ...


That's interesting. Have you heard of this group Diurpaneus? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Romance
When I was looking over the Migration period and especially demographic changes, I found this little insert in Wikipedia. They were hypothesized to be Vulgar Latin speakers (there aren't enough sources to say for certain it seems) living in Pannonia even during the Hunnic and Avar times, surviving by mainly living in fortified settlements. It seems only the western part of Pannonia was extensively colonized by the Romans though. The Great Hungarian Plain didn't seem to be bothered extensively with though (by Romans) and was always important for the steppe nomads.
From the wiki page: base.jpg
This is thought to be remains of a church used by them. Pretty small if you ask me though.
Could they have connections or contributed to the ethnogenesis of Vlach and Romanians?

----------


## Kisuan

> Without a doubt the main Vlach haplogroups were I2a
> (it doesn't matter if it is inherited or not) and E-V13.
> 
> 
> I2a scores 30% in the Moravian Vlach lineages and 40%
> in the Serbs from Bosnia,a population with significant
> Vlach background.The Vlachs that settled in Bosnia
> came from Serbia,it is possible that the northen
> groups of Vlachs had more I2a than the southern ones.
> ...


Wouldn't J2 and R1b be quite significant to Vlach as well? Eupedia's data for the Aromuns are quite high in J2 and R1b. I suspect at least some element of the Romanian population would have such frequencies as well. Do you perchance have more access to y-dna studies for Vlachs and Romania Diurpaneus? I think it would be a helpful contribution when searching for the genetic composition of pre-Slavic Balkans. It seems some genes (particularly the R1a) in Romania can be linked quite strongly to Slavic people though, so we might focus on more isolated communities throughout the Balkans.

----------


## Diurpaneus

"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
the text from Kekaumenos, "Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés



For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the 
Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.


The Byzantine military chief of Sirmium had the title of "strategos of Serbia",who was in charge
to defend a large section of the Danubian frontier,from this city until Vidin,that's why Kekaumenos
uses the words "along the Danube and Sava,WHERE NOW THE SERBS LIVE".
The Byzantines' most frequent name for the Hungarians was "Dacians",this,corroborated with
another geographical reference, the frontier of"the Danube and Sava",points that Kekaumenos obvioulsly places
the "Dacian" Vlachs, in the territory located north of the Danubian sector between Sirmium and Vidin,
in/near the Hungarian lands.For the Byzantines,the Hungarians and the Dacian Vlachs are "Dacians",
while the Bulgarians(with the core in the NE part of the country) and the Vlachs from the Haemus(Balkan
Mountains) are "Mysians".


But the Vlachs are also the "Bessi"from the Byzantine Empire,so the military mind conceives their
homeland in the contact zone with the Hungarian state,"along the Danube and Sava',to justify
the present "dispersion" and differentiation(Byzantine Bessi vs. Hungarian Dacians).


After Basil II's conquest of Bulgaria,the ecclesiastical structure is
reorganized in this territory,the seat of Vlach bishop was in Vreanoti,
today's Vranje,located in the
valley of Southern Morava,which is part of the "land of Bessi".
That's why Kekaumenos was definitely not the only Byzantine/Greek
who knew about the Vlach communities from this area.














"Komnena, like other Byzantine authoers, generally refers to the Hungarians as Dacians."
(Elemer Illyes,"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area")






from Paul Stephenson,"Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


"Anna adds that they were inspired
by the treachery of the Dacians. The latter were clearly the
Hungarians;




"A glance at any map of the middle Byzantine empire at its ‘apogee’ in
1025 will show that Basil II exercised authority throughout the lands of
the southern Slavs, and the border of his empire ran west along the Sava
and Danube from Sirmium to the Black Sea, and south the length of the
Adriatic coast from Istria through Dyrrachium and into Greece."




"In 1018 the patrikios Constantine Diogenes was designated commander
in Sirmium and the neighbouring territories. The geographical
range of Constantine Diogenes’ powers is remarkable, and he seems to
have enjoyed de iure authority across a wide, if poorly defined region
which stretched from Sirmium at least as far as Vidin, and then south
into the mountains of Raska (modern Serbia) and Bosna (Bosnia). A seal
in the Dumbarton Oaks collection bearing the legend ‘Constantine
Diogenes, [. . .] strategos of Serbia’ can only be attributed to this character."


"Geza I pursued a more friendly policy towards Byzantium. He was
married, probably in 1075, to the daughter of the Byzantine aristocrat
Theodoulus Synadenus,3 and received at that time the famous crown
which bears (on the reverse) his portrait on an enamel plaque beneath
that of the emperor Michael VII Ducas, and beside the image of
Constantine Ducas the porphyrogennetos."




"After the Byzantine defeats at Bari and Mantzikert in 1071 imperial authority
was challenged throughout the empire and from beyond the frontiers.
The Hungarian Chronicle relates how Belgrade came under attack
from the Hungarian King Salomon, where the Bulgarian and Greek
defenders used ‘Greek fire’ to set light to the Magyars’ ships. To deflect a
second assault they appealed to the Pechenegs (Bisseni), upon whom the
Magyars inflicted great slaughter. The besieged city fell after three months,
and many of the inhabitants were put to the sword before Salomon, and
the dukes Geza and Ladislas marched on to Nis, seizing much plunder en
route. The situation was resolved by negotiation soon thereafter, but it seems
probable that Salomon was allowed to keep the former Byzantine outpost
of Sirmium (modern Sremska Mitrovica), which sat on the northern bank
of the Sava, opposite the residence of the bishop of Sirmium (at
Macvanska Mitrovica)" 


"In the same
way, the peoples who occupied the various lands might be called
‘Bulgarians’ (Boulgaroi), although other names were used more frequently,
and with little concern for contemporary accuracy. Thus the
Bulgarians are often called Mysoi, Mysians (but not Moesians) because
they occupied the lands of the former Roman province of Moesia."


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Bela III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"










"The region between the Sava and the Danube was then ceded by
Michael VII to Geza, in 1075, so that he would secure an ally and save at least the region
east of Belgrade, which remained under Byzantine rule nearly until the collapse of the
empire in 1204."


"Confrontations between Hungary,
the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria
for the Belgrade–Vidin Border Region
in the 9th-14th Centuries",Alexandru Madgearu














"Donja Ljubata is situated ca. 15 km west of Bosilegrad,
at the natural communication connecting this region
with the Vranje–Bujanovac Basin"


"Bowl from Davidovac, situated between Vranje and
Bujanovac, decorated with cogwheel tool and circular stamps, kept
in the National Museum in Vranje."




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...27984354,d.bGs


"Nadalje ,u njoj se prvi pu t spominju vlaški vjernici koji su raštrkani na čitavom područj u tearhiepiskopije , tak o reći na čitavom Balkanu . Za njih osniva i zasebn u episkopiju,poznat u ka o vlaška episkopija, koju Mathia s Gy6ni lokalizira na područj uBabune , sjeverno od Prilepa u blizini Velesa, gdje se nalaz e dva sela s imeno mGornj i i Donji Vranovci, a ta se episkopija naziva Vreanotes™ što se svakako prijemož e identificirati s Vranjem"

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...27984354,d.bGg

" According to a German historian, there apparently was a bishopric of "the Vlachs" with its residence at "Vreanoti" (Vranje) on the upper reaches of the Morava river"

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm

----------


## Diurpaneus

Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a 
populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"




The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin. 
In Romania it strongly resembles Dacia Traiana, while south of the Danube
it reminds of the Latin-speaking areas from the Balkans, during the Roman/Eastern Roman Empire.




*I'm sure that,if this set of genes is present in/near Novi Sad,there must be a further,
western,extension,which the map doesn't show it,into the traditional Serbian lands and beyond.


1.jpg

Balkan_Latin.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg


EDIT:


The Romanians have plenty more Balkanic genes,
but the study offers a few locations for comparison from south of 
the Danube,Serbia has only two(Novi Sad and Kosovo),the
rest of the countries,only one each.

----------


## Diurpaneus

123.jpg


The eastern red spot stretches along the historical regions known as
Vlasca,Vlasia and Codrii Vlasiei(The Vlach Forest),these are Slavic
toponyms that testify the presence of the Romanians.


This analysis didn't use samples from Bucharest(the city had a very recent
population growth,during Communism,because of the intense industralization,
with lot of people coming from the north-eastern part of the country),
but from the surrounding rural area.


The Bulgarian samples come from Plovdiv,Komatevo area(Bulgaria 24.74941 / 42.14353),
which was also involved in the Bulgaro-Vlach movements started by Peter and Asen,
not to mention that Ivanko and Kaloyan(of Vlach origin,see "Cumans and Vlachs 
in The Second Bulgarian Empire",pg.6*) were some of its rulers.
This military and demographic diffusion had ended with consolidation of the Second Bulgarian
Empire by Kaloyan.






*If Alexandar Nikolov tries to point to a Byzantinian origin of those Vlachs,he is wrong.
The rebellion had started in Haemus,a mountaineus region,because large numbers of Vlachs
and Bulgarians were affected by this sudden collection of taxes.
And those 40.000 Vlach and Cuman archers could had been hardly gathered from the
former Byzantine sentinels. 

http://www.academia.edu/4388454/Kumans_and_Vlachs


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates (; trans.: –) relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Béla III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"



"Once he had reached
Nisˇ, as we have seen, Frederick met with Stefan Nemanja and his brothers,
and had received envoys from Peter and Asen. Moreover, once the
German emperor had arrived at Adrianople, he once again approached
‘Kalopetrus’ who offered 40,000 Vlach and Cuman archers for an
assault on Constantinople, and once the city was taken, requested that
the emperor present him ‘with the imperial crown of the realm of
Greece (coronam imperialem regni Grecie)’.(Byzantium Balkan Frontier)








"Markeri STR autozomali
Un număr de 5777 probe biologice au fost împărţite în 4 macroregiuni istorice astfel:
Valahia - probe biologice recoltate de la un număr de 1910 persoane provenite din 14
din cele 15 județe ale regiunii: Argeş (259), Brăila (148), Buzău (10), Călăraşi (11),
Dâmboviţa (215), Dolj (288), Giurgiu (114), Gorj (154), Ialomiţa (117), Ilfov (113),
Mehedinţi (122), Olt (20), Prahova (331) şi Teleorman (8);"


"Nu exista diferente între Moldova si populatia din Bucuresti."





From "Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


Peter and Asen came to Kypsella in spring  in search of concessions.
They hoped to be granted privileges by a new emperor, and their
hope was well founded, since Byzantine emperors regularly granted
local rulers in the northern Balkans such concessions. However, they
were insulted and dismissed. Isaac Angelus had decided to make an
example of the upstart Vlachs. He must have imagined he could control
the pastoralists, and determined that crushing their uprising would gain
him much needed military credibility. However, and in spite of his
attempt to prove otherwise by announcing false victories to the faithful
in Constantinople, Isaac had miscalculated, and it proved to be costly.
Nevertheless, the escalation of the Vlach rebellion was not inevitable,
nor was it based on an ethnic, still less a ‘national’, grievance against
Byzantine rule. Both Vlachs and Bulgarians played a major role in the
escalation of the rebellion, but others fought on the Byzantine side.


Meanwhile, however, the Vlachs and Bulgars made unprecedented
advances. Whereas previously their assaults had been concentrated
on villages and fields, now they advanced against ‘lofty-towered
cities. They sacked Anchialus, took Varna by force, and advanced on
Triaditza, the ancient Sardica, where they razed the greater part of the
city. They also emptied Stoumbion [south-west of Sardica on the upper
Strymon] of its inhabitants, and carried away large numbers of men
and animals from Nisˇ.’


"The Byzantine campaigns of autumn  were, by all extant
accounts, successful. Forces despatched to the north-east recovered
Varna and Anchialus, and the latter was reinforced with towers and a
garrison.72 Isaac himself led a campaign against the Vlachs and Cumans
from Philippopolis, and from there continued on to confront Stefan
Nemanja"


"More threatening for the empire was the fact that, after Isaac’s demise,
the nature of Vlach-Bulgar raids changed. Whereas before  they
were content to plunder lands south of the Haemus and around the
Black Sea ports, which remained in Byzantine hands, from  the
Vlach-Bulgars began to contemplate permanent possession of both
kastra and cities."


"Ivanko, who had fled
to Constantinople, was betrothed to Alexius III’s granddaughter, an
exceptional prize for the pretender to a realm the autonomy of which
was not recognized. Subsequently, he played a crucial role in defending
the environs of Philippopolis, serving as ‘a precious bulwark against his
own countrymen’. Even so, ‘the devastation of the lands towards the
Haemus and the despoiling of the inscribed monuments and pillars of
Macedonia and Thrace give a more accurate picture of the damage
wrought than any detailed historical account"




"The employment of Ivanko and Dobromir-Chrysus against their
fellow Vlachs and Bulgars was not exceptional. As we have seen, it was
a standard Byzantine strategy for dealing with recalcitrant peoples to
employ divide and rule tactics; and nobody knew better how to deal with
highly mobile Vlach raiding parties than Vlachs."


https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvV...soners&f=false


https://izi.travel/en/c1e4-vlasiei-w...rii-vlasiei/en

http://www.danubiushunters.com/web/


Plovdivian faces:

EnsBistritsa_91.jpg

_3563472_41837089_1465634765.jpg

----------


## Diurpaneus

"This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés


"Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(_THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)

_

Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic _Vlaška_)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

----------


## LABERIA

> "This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés
> 
> 
> "Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(_THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)
> 
> _
> 
> Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic _Vlaška_)
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs


At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.

----------


## Milan

> "This mountainous area is connected with the mountains south of the Danube between the Timok and Morava rivers and further to the south with the mountainous central area of the Balkan Peninsula, where several Northern Romanian geographical names existed in the Middle Ages. Many of them are still preserved in the Slavic toponymy; there are still settlements and mountains called "Vlach," for example, Vlaška Pianina "Vlach Mountains" near to the town of Pirot"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area",Elemér Illyés
> 
> 
> "Besides these names of Northern Rumanian origin, many of which certainly existed before the Slavic colonization of the areas in question, there is another group of geographical names connected with the presence of Vlachs: the names of mountains and placenames given by the Slavs and based on the Slavic name of the Vlachs. These are found all over the territories in which also names of Rumanian origin were preserved. Of such names of mountains, we mention Vlasiƒ, Vlaško Brdo, Stari Vlah, Vlasina, Vlaninja, Vlahinja Planina; and of placenames Vlahov Katun, Valakonje, Vlahoni, Vlaškido, Vlaški Do, Vlasiƒ, Vlase, Vlasi, Vlasotinƒe, Novovlase, Vlaška Draca, (of the following villages, there are more than one with the same name:) Vlaška, Vlahi, Vlahinja."(_THE ORIGINS OF THE RUMANIANS)
> 
> _
> 
> Vlaşca County, a former county of southern Wallachia (derived from Slavic _Vlaška_)
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs


Not every toponym having _Vlaška_ is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vla_šici_ not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vla_ška_ mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.

----------


## Fustan

> At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.


Vlachs have borrowed many words from us and yes, katun is one of these words.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Milan:

Not every toponym having _Vlaška is refering to the Vlachs but the god Veles (god of cattle) similarly the stars Hyades are named Vlašici not because of Vlachs but because of the god Veles.
See Veles town,Vlaška mountain or valley etc,more often valleys ,you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name.The Vlachs could have received their exonym by South-Slavs later on by their occupation cattle-breeders from the god of cattle Veles.




_Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe
in the present.

I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...29391328,d.bGs


"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)

----------


## Diurpaneus

@Milan


Your theory has slim chances to be reliable because it is
a compromise(Vlach Vlaska vs. Veles' Vlaska),the term
comes from Vlas(i) plus the suffix "-ka",like in
Hrvatska.


The only metathesys that Veles had suffered was through
Christianity,when his horns and tale were chopped off,
but it doesn't mean that we can't feel the original vibe.








I had strong arguments for the fact that I2a was ultimately also
spread by populations having mostly Dinaric racial traits:


-it is very present among Serbs,Croats,Bosniaks,they all share this
anthropological feature
-in Romania I2a only partly corresponds the Slavic imput,while the
bigger Balkanic-like one must have haplogroups too.
-this set of genes was transplanted to the northwestern Carpathians,
the association of I2a(30%) with E-V13(15%) from the Moravian Vlach
lineages supports the Romanian origin of this group.Many of them had
come from Maramures,a region that also has lot of genetical ties with
the Balkans,the connections with Kosovo shown in the above maps
only represents a late impulse that had been engaged in Dragos' and
Bogdan's movements to Moldavia:


"The name of
the Maramuresh noble village of Sarbi8, inhabited by the great families of Berinde9,
Bud10 , Feier11 and Tiplea12, descended from Locovoj13 knez of Cosau14, is called
Olahtotfalu, and Cosau comes from Kosovo. The naming of one of the most important
villages from Maramuresh Olahotfalva in Hungarian and Sarbi in Romanian shows
the mutual synonymy of the terms in medieval mentality, and the reference to Kosau Kosov
is important. It is important to know that the Berinde family of Cosau is re
lated to the royal family of Moldavia, Mathias Corvin wanting to put a Berinde from
Sarbi15, Maramuresh, and voivode in Moldavia"


"The village Sarbi is situated
in the Cosau (Kosov etymology the Kosovo field) valley, in the Cosau possessions
of Lokovoj of Kosau (Kosov). The Serb name of both the land (river) and noble
shows a correlation The same is with the village of Cuhea, inhabited by the descendants of the Gherhes
of Sarasau54, which has its serf village of Bocicoel, the village of Sapanta, which has
its serf village of Teceul Mic, and with the nobles of Sieu, which have the serfs of
Botiza and Rozavlea."


"The representation of Simeon Nemanja, the monk-king,
at Radauti, the necropolis of the Bogdan dynasty of Moldavia, shows this symbolic
adoption into the holy Nemanjic dynasty"


"The names of the family of the Moldavian voivodes, Bogdan, Juga and Latko are
to be found in the cadet branch of the Nemanjic, Jug Bogdan Vratko Nemanjic, the
father-in-law of Lazar Hrebeljanovic, was a descendent of Vukan, son of Nemanja.
Vratko is a form of Latko (Vlatzko from Vladislau, and Vladislau gives Ladislau), and
Bogdan and Juga are well known names in Moldavia. Maybe a connection with this
branch is the source of the heraldic coincidence."


"The Sapanta cemetery of Maramuresh consists of iconic images of the noble people
buried there, with acathist-like inscriptions. Is this a last remnant of the idea of the
holy Nemanjic dynasty in this far corner of Maramuresh? As was the case of Saint
Simeon and Sava icon from Calinesti, of Maramuresh?"






"The Valachs (or Wallachs/Vlachs as they are sometimes
called) are one of the most distinct ethnographic and cultural
subpopulations of Central Europe. Today, they can be
found not only in the Czech Republic – in its eastern border
mountain ranges and highlands (Beskydy in Moravia)
– but also in south-southeast Poland and several parts of
Slovakia (far western, northern, and central region). Originally,
this group spread from the Maramures region of Romania,
roughly following the Carpathian Mountain range"


(Y-chromosomal diversity of
the Valachs from the Czech
Republic: model for isolated
population in Central Europe)

----------


## Diurpaneus

Milan:"you see Do (valley) are connected to the god name."


If things would have been simple they wouldn't
have used a weird filter,still,the posted maps
contain without a doubt'autochthonous" genes,
even in regard to the Slavic imput.
It wasn't a horror analysis,but they surely
sampled consistently from the darkest side. 




Populatiile Analizate
Esantion populational general


"Un numar de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sange, fire de par, etc.)
au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate si
alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecti,
victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6,
in acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea si functionarea Sistemului
National de Date Genetice Judiciare.
In vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate in studiul populational de fata,
s-a tinut cont în primul rand de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede
la Art. 11 (5): "Administratia Nationala a Penitenciarelor stabileste penitenciarul
in care persoana condamnata va executa pedeapsa privativa de libertate.
La stabilirea penitenciarului se va avea în vedere ca acesta sa fie situat
cat mai aproape de localitatea de domiciliu a persoanei condamnate."

(Analiza genetica a populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul României folosind markeri STR)










The first one is my favorite:


"On the other hand, the Serbs made a clear distinction between their own ethnic
community and the Vlachs. This is exemplified in proverbs such as "Oh, Turk, the conspirer
of trouble! And you, Vlach, a blood brother imposed by others!" Another proverb
says: "Eat with a Vlach from the same bowl until you eat half of it, and then you hit him
on the head with it!"(ELEMENTS OF ETHNIC IDENTIFICATION OF THE SERBS,Danijela Gavrilovic).




Milan, next time when this tone is used, you will be treated like Visegradina.
If I post alot,it doesn't mean that I try to suggest that the South-Slavs are
genetically overwhelmingly Vlachs.








EDIT:


I sometimes post only copy-pasted text, simply because I consider that there is 
nothing to add,don't be fooled by sneaky devils like Angela or Mihaitza/Gyms.
The latter's extreme posts had scared even the far-right members from "The Apricity",
from where is constantly banned.


EDIT2:


The previous post's copy-paste from
"MEDIEVAL NAME AND ETHNICITY: SERBS AND VLACHS",Stefan Staretu

----------


## Milan

I gave you one example Vlašici _(Hyades)_ stars otherwise are named because of god Veles and not because of the Vlasi- Vlachs.But the "ethnonym" Vlach appear only in the 11th century denoting sheepherders and Romance speakers? Probably also depends where.
As matter of fact prior to be used in sense we today use,for example in Croatia,Bosnia all Eastern Orthodox were called Vlachs hence Serbs too.
Some of the toponyms perhaps have origin from their name,but i expressed my doubt since sometimes the same name have root to god Veles.

----------


## Diurpaneus

It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be 
expanded or exploited,shouldn't leave the boundaries of astrology.


But the main argument for the use of the terms Vlasi/Vlaska to designate
exclusively the Vlachs/Vlach Country is their ethnic value.




These Vlachs are named Kjelatori,premikurs,protogers,all of them of
Latin origin,and lived in villages like Surdul,"The Deaf",in Romanian.


"The Vlach chieftains and their
officials, known as knezes, premikurs (premicur, primicur, from Latin primicerius),
protogers (protuder)" ("Being An Ottoman Vlach")




"The word hoditai, which does not mean
“nomads”, concerns the same people who were recorded in the Serbian
sources with the name kjelatori, involved in the military transportation.
The name kjelatori renders the Romanian word of Latin origin călători
(“travelers”)."("Vlach Military Units in the Byzantin")




"The archaeological excavations in Leskovac gave
the key to identification of the Brnjica finds in other
museums in the Morava basin; through classification
of material and intensive identification, trial and protective
excavations, fifty-four Brnjica cultural group
sites have been designated, of which ten are in the Vranje
region: Ljanik, Svinji{te, Biljaa, Kon~ulj, Luane,
Surdul, Priboj, Klinovac, Piljakovac and @ujince;
twenty-five in the Leskovac region"(REGIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
OF THE BRNJICA CULTURAL GROUP)

----------


## Milan

> It doesn't matter if indeed Vlasic ultimately comes from Veles or not,
> we speak of a specific correlation,that shouldn't be


What i was saying is not to mix all the toponyms,some may reffer,some may not reffer to Vlachs,and i gave example.It is name similarities,about origin of the name there is generaly accepted theory already,so i can not go into that even if some propose otherwise.

----------


## Diurpaneus

If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...


The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
using Veles too?

http://www.greatdreams.com/constella...sas-bootes.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auriga_(constellation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)



In any case,if this proves to be true, it will be an isolated tie:


Old pastoral term(Veles)<--constellation(astrology)-->New Pastoral term(Vlasic)


Are there any further connections in this direction(Veles-Vlas),
apart from the names' closeness and pastoralism(which would had led inevitably
to overlapping in the case of a constellation)?


The extreme differentiation between the nomad Vlachs and the sedentary South-
Slavs throughout the Middle Ages had led to the need of having very clear ethnic markers,
that's why the Serbs too,like the Eastern Slavs, who use the word Volokh/Voloh(unrelated to 
Veles),had adopted the term in a classical manner,without having other intermediary than the
Germans.


"In medieval Balkan states, the Vlachs were engaged in certain military
services, transport of goods, and colonisation of empty lands; they held a
special position and specific legal status, different from other populace.7 The
Balkan states kept the Vlachs isolated from the sedentary population to prevent
possible nomadisation of peasants. The feudal system however, started
gradually absorbing autonomies of Vlach herdsmen and their clan structure, in
favour of a sedentary way of life."("Being An Ottoman Vlach")


The Serbian kings' laws against intermarriages are well-known. 


Before making hypotheses about Veles it is important to know how
deeply-rooted he still was in the South-Slavs consciousness,after the intense
Christianization,and some preserved toponyms can't be involved in this exercise.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Interesting compactness and overlapping of this genetical signature
with the earliest recorded Romanian political structures:

1.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelou

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litovoi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C4%83rbat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneslau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_(knez)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farca%C8%99


"Anonymus wrote that Cumans, Bulgarians, and Vlachs (or Romanians), supported Glad against the invading Magyars, but the latter annihilated their united army in a battle near the Timiș River."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glad_(duke)

Anonymus uses a term from his present,the Cumans are in fact the Pechenegs,Bugarians' allies against the Magyars.


"The blows suffered at the hands of the Pechenegs and Bulgarians in 895–896 induced great caution in the Hungarians. Constantine Porphyrogenetos repeatedly noted that the Hungarians feared the Pechenegs, who were used by the Bulgarians to keep the Hungarians in check"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar...Hungarian_wars

----------


## Diurpaneus

The plural of baiat(boy) is baieti,which indicates the alternative singular baiet,
also in use.


"Baiet" is a Northern Latin variant,it ultimately comes from a form of the verb
"valeo","valet",exactly like the french word, and it is similar to Mantovan bagaet.
The semantic link is assured by the Italian words.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/b%C4%83iat

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valet

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valeo#Latin

_băiat_
boy; servant, page
Russu
variant _băiet_;


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Dacian_origin

"We found Emiliano-Romagnolo
Mantovan bagaet ”ragazzo, boy”"

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords



Latin v--> Romanian b


Latin veteranus,Romanian batran
Latin alveus,Romanian albie
Latin corvus,Romanian corb




The loss of intervocalic "l"


Latin folia,Romanian foaie
Latin filius,Romanian fiu
Latin familia,Romanian femeie




"The first line, the northern line, La Spezia – Rimini, is supposed to separate Gallo-Romance
dialects from Toscan, Southern Italian dialects, AND Romanian.
In fact, Romanian shares most phonetic shifts with the North. 
The comparison of Lombard with Romanian may fine-tune the chronology
of phonetic shifts in Gallo-Romance."


"We suppose a linguistic continuum between Raetia, North Italy, Pannonia and Dacia,
interrupted in the 400-s, after which proto-Rumanian would evolve separately."




http://www.academia.edu/10464761/Rom...an_dialects_II


Baiat resembles Italian dialectal forms like Calabrian bajazza(servant,easy woman),
vajazzu(servant,peasant),note the v/b alternation from the Italian dialects.


EDIT

If indeed related,the Albanian "bije" (daughter) could be the result of a regressive derivation from baiat/baiet or a similar form.
Because baiat can afford to lose the "-t" suffix,coming from Latin valeo.

http://www.verbix.com/webverbix/go.p...1=109&T1=valeo

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords

----------


## Diurpaneus

The long-lasting North Italian influences had come from ,
for example, the economic centers like Aquileia,following the roads along 
the Sava and Drava to the Danube,reaching Pannonia,Dacia and the northern/fluvial (Upper)Moesia.


a map of roads from "Roman Danube Survey"




RomanDanubeSurvey.jpg




"Spesso le rappresentazioni di caccia si ritrovano
sia nell’arte romana pubblica, sia in quella
privata dal II al IV secolo,1 si potrebbe anche
affermare che la caccia fosse uno dei temi preferiti e la
decorazione principale delle stele funerarie, specialmente
nella Pannonia e nel Noricum.2 L’esistenza delle
stele con scene di caccia anche nella provincia della
Moesia Superior è una motivazione importante e significativa
per prestare una particolare attenzione a questi
monumenti"


"Nota anche che
questo fregio decorativo fu caratteristico della zona
norico – pannonica in particolare nel I e II secolo. Il
termine più preciso di zwieschenstrief animalistica è
stato formulato molto più tardi da Bianchi indagando
le stele funerarie della provincia della Dacia."


"stato raffigurato anche un albero.
Accanto alle stele citate che rappresentano il tema di
questo elaborato, si deve evidenziare che il tema della
caccia fu presente in altri due monumenti funerari nella
Moesia Superior. Nel lapidario del Museo di Krajina a
Negotin si trova un medaglione a forma circolare con
la raffigurazione di un cacciatore a cavallo; questo è la
parte centrale della stele funeraria che appartiene a quel
tipo di monumenti molto popolare nella Dacia e nel
Noricum."


"L’apparizione di questo
fregio nelle stele della Moesia Superior può essere capita
solo come conseguenza delle influenze che sono
pervenute da entrambe le Pannonie e dal Noricum dove
questo motivo era popolare; ed è altrettanto possibile
che questi si diffusero da queste province, come anche
dalla Moesia Superior, fino alla Dacia."


"Egli ha messo in evidenza che le botteghe a Singidunum
e a Viminacium lavoravano sotto le influenze dell’Italia
del nord, passate tramite la Pannonia del sud."


"L’apparizione del motivo della caccia in un gruppo
numeroso di stele funerarie della Moesia Superior è
ancora una conferma che in questa parte della provincia
ci sono dei vincoli culturali con entrambe le Pannonie
e con il Noricum, e questo vuol dire che i legami erano
molto stretti con Italia del nord".


"Il fregio con gli animali selvatici, cioè la scena di
caccia, appare in sette stele funerarie del tipo architettonico
del II e dell’inizio del III secolo della Moesia
Superior, in cinque di Viminacium, poi in una che
attualmente è murata nella fortezza di Smederevo ed
infine in una trovata a Stojnik."


"Anche Vasi}, analizzando
le stele funerarie della Dalmatia, ha concluso che
il motivo della caccia nell’area di questa provincia giunse
dall’Italia del Nord, da Aquileia e poi attraverso la
Pannonia da cui le influenze erano giunte tramite la valle
del fiume Drina"


"Esaminando la tipologia della stele di Trieste, Verzar–Bass
evidenzia la possibilità della diffusione dell’influenza di Aquileia e
dell’ambiente cisalpino nelle vicine province del Noricum e della
Pannonia Superior, e questo nel campo delle stele dalle dimensioni monumentali,
della simile mancanza di profondità del rilievo come nella
stele Barbii o dell’unione architettonica della stele tra quelle incorniciate
con le lesene decorate come, per esempio, quelle della stele Hostilii
evidenziando di nuovo il fatto che esempi significativi di questo tipo
non sono confermati nella sola Aquileia"
(*LA SCENA DI CACCIA:
MOTIVO DI DECORAZIONE DELLE STELE FUNERARIE
DELLA MOESIA SUPERIOR*,Sanja Pilipovic)








"On the west wall of the above mentioned tomb
from Pécs, painted in the spirit of painting from the
Italian soil, the story of Jonah is represented concisely
and in a simplified manner,71 unlike the composition
elaborated in detail on two wallls of the tomb from Mike
Anti}a Street in Sremska Mitrovica. We tend, because
of this, to see the painting of this tomb as the result of
close relations which, during the second half of the 4th
century, the artistic workshops from Sirmium developed
with the centres from North Italy, in the first place with
those from Aquileia."
(WALL PAINTING OF LATE ANTIQUE TOMBS
IN SIRMIUM AND ITS VICINITY,Ivana Popovic)




"The supply of late North Italian sigillata to the military bases
along the lower Danube can be traced though the products of individual
workshops in such centres as Singidunum (Ms.4), Viminacium (Ms.14),
and Transdierna (Ms.42)." (Roman Danube Survey)

----------


## Milan

> If I am not going for your Veles-Vlas connection...
> 
> 
> The shepherds/pastoralists are by default connected to constellations/astrology,
> because of their way of life,Vlasic already points to shepherdry,what's the point of
> using Veles too?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?

*Post-Christian Veles
*

*As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise**,* popularly known among various Slavic nations as *St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
Vlasi,Vlahi etc* is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.*That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called* in the *Slavic languages,*so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected *only* to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the* toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.*

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Yes there is connection,do you read what i write?
> 
> *Post-Christian Veles
> *
> 
> *As a protector of cattle, he became associated with Saint Blaise**,* popularly known among various Slavic nations as *St. Vlaho, St. Blaz, or St. Vlasiy.
> Vlasi,Vlahi etc* is the name we used for sheep/cattle herders.Vlachs were sheepherders too.*That is by which name the sheepherders or Vlachs were called* in the *Slavic languages,*so as you can see the name is not ultimately connected *only* to Vlachs we today use "Romance speakers".So do not mix all the* toponymy cause we have saints and prior god of that name.*



You have not posted about Saint Blaise until now,and this particular syncretism doesn't
support any of your theories,about a further/more complex connection between Veles and Vlach/Vlas,
because, just like in the case of Vlasici(Hyades),if true, it is an anticipable one,
or the toponyms(how many place names a saint like Blaise could have had?).


Milan,just an innocent question:what is the name of Saint Blaise's girlfriend?


EDIT


Romanian Grammar


One of the most important powers of "and" is a higher versatility
regarding the adversative manner.
In the above phrase it replaces the adversative "iar",one of
the equivalents of the adversative "si"("and",in english),
who doesn't have the power of"but"("dar").


The Romanians tend to use comma between phrases that contain
the double "either"-"or" or "neither"-"nor",because of a different 
construction who transforms the sentence into an enumeration
by using the same conjunction ,"si"-"si"("and"-"and") in the first case,
"nici"-"nici" in the second.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Who Am I?
> I am this tone named Alexandru.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The emperor did not relent, but every year he marched into Bulgaria and laid
> ...



Argea is an Old Macedonian(Alexander's speech) term ,integrated
into the Latin of Romanian type,while the Albanian ragal/argal comes
from the Greek argaleios.


intervocalic"-ll-" dissapears


Latin stella Romanian stea
Latin hirundinella Romanian randunea




"Romanian argea ‘subterranean room’ has been considered Thraco-Dacian since Hasdeu 
(Col. lui Traian, 232, 1873) from a Dacian *argilla and later in Etymologicum… 
is associated with Greek άργιλλα ‘subterranean house’,* Old Macedonian árgella ‘id’*
and Cimmerian argill ‘id’. This hypothesis was adopted also by Gr. Brâncuş 
(VALR, 30) and I .I. Russu (Elemente, 133). All these forms are 
derived from PIE *areg-to enclose"(INTRODUCTION TO THE ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY
OF THE ROMANIAN LANGUAGE)




"ragal (Albanian) Origin & history Methatesized form of earlier *argal, 
close to Romanian argea ("shed") and *Ancient Macedonian ἄργελλα 'Macedonian baths*

http://www.wordsense.eu/argea/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/argea


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arge%C8%99_County

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A2mpulung

EDIT:

I have found my horse.

EDIT:

This is an original post,like most of mine;
it is also a correct one,because that's what
the very smart people usually do.
I have emphasized the nature of the connection between the
Romanian and Macedonian terms,if I remember the copy-paste
or Google Search doesn't do that.
This happen to be an easy one,but in order to grow in complexity,
you have to have access to certain information.
In general,you can reach to the same conclusion with others,without being
guilty of plagiarism.

EDIT:

"Argella"/"argea" had widened its semantics, gaining the sense of "loom", possibly through 
contact with the Greek or Albanian terms.

EDIT:

Despite the form of the PIE root(-areg;to enclose) from where the word argella is
coming,the river Arges can have "Macedonian" phonetics,if it
originally meant"The Enclosed River"="The River with High Banks".
The argument that favors the ancient origin of his name is Burebista's
capital,Argedava.
But the similarities might be visible also in meanings,with an
independent Macedonian-Getic-Thracian semantic development,
because Arges is a river,the Macedonian argella also denotes the "bath"and
Albanian "argesh", the "raft".


argesh m ‘crude raft supported by skin bladders, crude bridge of crossbars,
harrow


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argedava


EDIT


We can make further independent semantical connections, the Macedonian, Greek and Romanian meaning of argilla/argella/argea,
"subterranean(house)", with the river Arges, that would have been "The Deep River","The River with a Deep Bed" or just the
concept of a river as simply the bed(river-bed-deepness).
A similar pattern exists in Romania,where alot of villages are called "Adancata"("The Deep Village",
adanc came from Latin aduncus),the one from Ialomita situated for sure at a confluence,certifying thus,the place name Argedava.
The Albanian term argesh can also be involved,because any raft sinks to a certain degree, the Thracian argilos(mouse;underground
animal) or the Macedonian bath, argella.

http://thevore.com/thracian/

https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comuna..._Ialomi%C8%9Ba


https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comuna...ncata,_Suceava

The semantics of the river Arges resumes to the basis of the above-related terms:deepness and water.

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Romanian/Aromanian word for heart is inima,which came from Latin anima(soul),appart from these
languages,this semantic shift only appears in a text from Toledo(the form is animus).
Suflet(soul) is a substantive formed from the verb "a sufla"(to breathe).


These two semantic shifts correspond to the Christian concepts like"the heart is the place of the soul"or
"the heart and soul are One",while the soul is associated to the act of breathing.


Still,all the early words that refer to Paganism are Latin,suggesting that the process of
Romanization was completed before the adoption of Christianity.
One of these words,descanta/descantare(magic formula against evil spells or diseases),can
only be found(in this form and having this meaning) in the North Italian dialects(Friuli and Venezia).




"Discanta frioul. pour lequel Pirona {Vocab. friiil., 1S71, 131)
donne le sens : torre Vincantesimo vh: rende nno inetto a qiialche
cosa; roum. descîntare avec la même signification (comp. vén.
descantar)."(Ovide Densusianu,"Histoire de la Langue Roumaine")


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/encantar

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enchanter

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incantare

magie s.f. „magija“ (dr.
magie) < lat. magia < ;318 fermec, pl. fermece s.n. „bajanje, vracanje“ (dr. fermec) < lat.
*pharmacum ); fermeca vb. tranz. „bajati, vracati“ (dr. fermeca) < lat. *pharmacare (<
*pharmacum);319 descanta vb. intranz., tranz. „vracati, (od)bajati“ (dr. descînta, ar. discîntare) < lat.
*discantare (< cantare); zîna s.f. „vila“ (dr. zîna, st. tosk., st. prov. jana, log. yana „vracara, carobnica“) < lat.
Diana(OD LATINSKOG DO RUMUNSKOG)




"Heart transplants have been opposed on the medieval grounds that the heart is the repository of the soul".

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity....0_medicine.htm


"Biblical references to the soul are related to the concept of breath and establish no distinction
between the ethereal soul and the corporeal body. Christian concepts of a body-soul dichotomy
originated with the ancient Greeks and were introduced into Christian theology at
an early date by St. Gregory of Nyssa and by St.Augustine"

https://www.britannica.com/topic/sou...and-philosophy

https://books.google.ro/books?id=nvV...20soul&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

This is one of the 9 Y STR markers diagrams(Florin Stanciu),Hungary clusters with Romania,
Macedonia and Serbia,it has to be related to Balkanic imputs(I2a+E-V13).

1.jpg

----------


## Garrick

> At my knowledge the word katun was borrowed from Albanian.


Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.

And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.

Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.

There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.

Even Ainu people have this term

Finnish koti (house), kotona (at home)

Old Indo European kadh to hide, to protect.

----------


## LABERIA

> Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.
> 
> And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.
> 
> Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.
> 
> There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.
> 
> Even Ainu people have this term
> ...


Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?I will be back to this word Katun or Katund, because explain many things about the medieval and modern history of West Balcan.

continue

----------


## Nik

> Katun is Northern Thracian substratum, it can be used by Carpi/Albanian.
> 
> And root of this word is very old and from large areas from Altai (even far) to Romania, and to Finland, root of word can be non Indo European.
> 
> Primitive dwelling in Euro Asia.
> 
> There are Katun Valley and Katun Alps in Altai mountains, border Russia, China, Mongolia.
> 
> Even Ainu people have this term
> ...


Eh?  :Petrified:  Northern Thracian substratum? Although it could have been a Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian word as well, katun is related to canton, of Latin origin.

----------


## LABERIA

> Eh?  Northern Thracian substratum? Although it could have been a Thraco-Dacian and Illyrian word as well, *katun is related to canton, of Latin origin.*


Source pls?

----------


## Nik

> Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?I will be back to this word Katun or Katund, because explain many things about the medieval and modern history of West Balcan.
> 
> continue


They call them Vlasi because the Orthodox people they came into contact with in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Lika were mostly Romance speaking highland dwellers. There are many contemporary Ragusan and Venetian sources making a clear distinction between Serbs and Vlachs, especially in Herzegovina and Montenegro. Many of today's Serbs in these regions were ethnically recorded as Vlachs before and although belonging to the Serbian Orthodox Church, they still used Vlach personal names. Part of their lastnames were Albanian/Arbanasi too, estimated around 20%. Bear in mind that until the Middle Ages people in Central Serbia called highlanders Ghegs.

----------


## Nik

> Source pls?


I didnt make a claim, I simply shared what I know. I'm saying this because I'm not a big fan of linguists as they oversimplify things. 

For them, Albanian is such an inconsiderable language that everything similar between it and Latin, Greek, Slavic, etc. is a loan word. We have been taught that our word for friend "mik" comes from Latin "amicus", while interestingly one of the Illyrian Deities of Friendship was called Mikon. Similarly, they consider the fact that Latin got so many borrowings from Etruscan and Greek, but the various migrations/invasions from the Balkans towards the Italian Peninsula means nothing to them. 

What bothers me in the case of Slavic is that many similar words between Albanian and Serbo-Croatian do not even exist in other Slavic languages, so why the hell would u assume that its a Slavic borrowing and not the other way around?

----------


## LABERIA

> They call them Vlasi because the Orthodox people they came into contact with in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia and Lika were mostly Romance speaking highland dwellers. There are many contemporary Ragusan and Venetian sources making a clear distinction between Serbs and Vlachs, especially in Herzegovina and Montenegro. Many of today's Serbs in these regions were ethnically recorded as Vlachs before and although belonging to the Serbian Orthodox Church, they still used Vlach personal names. Part of their lastnames were Albanian/Arbanasi too, estimated around 20%. Bear in mind that until the Middle Ages people in Central Serbia called highlanders Ghegs.


The question was for Garrick. I am curious to know his opinion.

----------


## Nik

> The question was for Garrick. Are you an sockpuppet of Garrick?


He will definitely dismiss the existence of Vlachs in Medieval Serbia. Probably he'll say they were just Serbian shepherds erroneously called Vlachs because of their lifestyle.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Traditional costumes from Arges,the meanders,mostly
rectangular,seem to point to a Greek-Roman origin.

5274_8544_32.jpg

16017_19476_26.jpg

CostumeTraditionaleRomanesti_4a.jpg

----------


## Garrick

> The question was for Garrick. I am curious to know his opinion.


I am partly (1/4) of Aromanian (Cincar) origin.

Unfortunately Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Aromanians:

"The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha. Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë and Berat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole

----------


## LABERIA

The question was this:



> Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?





> I am partly (1/4) of Aromanian (Cincar) origin.
> 
> Unfortunately Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Aromanians:
> 
> "The 1769 sacking and pillaging by Muslim Albanian troops was just the first of a series of attacks, which culminated with the razing of 1788 by the troops of Ali Pasha. Moscopole was practically destroyed by this attack, while some of its commerce shifted to nearby Korçë and Berat.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscopole


Can you try at least once to answer to the question and not to avoid with this kind of falsification prepared at wiki by zoupan, aleksikua and company? Answer to the question and don`t try to enter in discussion that you don`t have a any idea.

----------


## LABERIA

There is this video where this famous serb historian Dr. Deretic says his opinion about vlachs, romanians and serbs. I want to make clear from the the beginning that i don`t share the same opinion with him. This is in general, the view of the serb academics.




*Dr Jovan Deretic - Who are Romanians???-*

----------


## Garrick

> There is this video where this famous serb historian Dr. Deretic says his opinion about vlachs, romanians and serbs. I want to make clear from the the beginning that i don`t share the same opinion with him. This is in general, the view of the serb academics.


Laberia, why you give importance.

Deretic is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Deretic is pseudo historian and he is not academic.
...

If you like to learn about science in Serbia, you can visit the site of Serbian academy, or Serbian universities.

You can see for example Belgrade university is highly ranked in the world.

*Academic Ranking of World Universities 2015*


http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2015.html

Or you can see Serbian young mathematicians have good results in Mathematical Olympiads, past year they won four medals (this year five):

http://www.nis.eu/en/presscenter/suc...th-nis-support

One of the best competitors of all time in Mathematical Olympiads is from Serbia.

Or you can learn what you want.

...
Serbian scientists are known around the world.

Why do you find charlatanes?

When Albanian Prime Minister Rama visited Belgrade, Serbia has pledged assistance in many areas.

Serbia will help Albania everywhere including science, good cooperation is important for Balkan countries.

But surely not in xihat, this will not pass in 21 century.

----------


## LABERIA

> Laberia, why you give importance.
> 
> Deretic is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.
> 
> Deretic is pseudo historian and he is not academic.
> ...
> 
> If you like to learn about science in Serbia, you can visit the site of Serbian academy, or Serbian universities.
> 
> ...


What have to do Koço Danaj in our discussion? Deretiç is one of the most important scholars of Serbia. 
With academics and scholars in Serbia, of course you intend SANU. In the article of Damjan Pavlica he speak about SANU. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia...ences_and_Arts
The Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (Serbian: Српска академија наука и уметности, САНУ / Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, SANU) is a national academy and the most prominent academic institution in Serbia, founded in 1841.

SANU is famous for:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANU_Memorandum
Reception[edit]
The memo was denounced by the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, including Slobodan Milošević, the future president of Serbia, who publicly called the memo "nothing else but the darkest nationalism", and Radovan Karadžić, the future leader of Serbs in Bosnia, who stated "Bolshevism is bad, but nationalism is even worse".[8] Despite these declarations, Milošević, Karadžić, and other Serb politicians publicly agreed with most of the memo and would form close political connections with the writers of the memo such as Mihailo Marković, who became the vice-president of the Socialist Party of Serbia and Dobrica Ćosić who was appointed president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.[9]

As you see, this are not scholars but criminals and unfortunately this are your highest intelectuale elite. In front of this criminals, Deretiç is an amateur. This guys are serious in their work.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> The plural of baiat(boy) is baieti,which indicates the alternative singular baiet,
> also in use.
> 
> 
> "Baiet" is a Northern Latin variant,it ultimately comes from a form of the verb
> "valeo","valet",exactly like the french word, and it is similar to Mantovan bagaet.
> The semantic link is assured by the Italian words.
> 
> 
> ...



I have started my thoughts from the French word,because it
seems to have the most reliable etymology so far and the most stable vocals,a-e;
if Latin valeo(or other roots that have the vocal pattern a-consonant-e) 
is the source of all these terms,then the South Italian versions and 
Romanian baiat had undergone assimilation.
If these last forms are closer to the Latin
root,then the French valet,North Italian bagaet and 
Romanian baiet had suffered dissimilation.




Regardless of their etymology,these linguistic ways of 
divergence,assimilation and dissimilation,certified by
the Romanian(baiet-baiat) and Italian(Northern bagaet-
Southern bajazza,vajazzu) variations,can indicate a common root.

----------


## Garrick

> What have to do Koço Danaj in our discussion? Deretiç is one of the most important scholars of Serbia. 
> With academics and scholars in Serbia, of course you intend SANU. In the article of Damjan Pavlica he speak about SANU. 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia...ences_and_Arts
> The Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (Serbian: Српска академија наука и уметности, САНУ / Srpska akademija nauka i umetnosti, SANU) is a national academy and the most prominent academic institution in Serbia, founded in 1841.
> 
> SANU is famous for:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANU_Memorandum
> Reception[edit]
> The memo was denounced by the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, including Slobodan Milošević, the future president of Serbia, who publicly called the memo "nothing else but the darkest nationalism", and Radovan Karadžić, the future leader of Serbs in Bosnia, who stated "Bolshevism is bad, but nationalism is even worse".[8] Despite these declarations, Milošević, Karadžić, and other Serb politicians publicly agreed with most of the memo and would form close political connections with the writers of the memo such as Mihailo Marković, who became the vice-president of the Socialist Party of Serbia and Dobrica Ćosić who was appointed president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1992.[9]
> ...


Laberia. Why do you show frustration?

Because Albanian science has no significant results.

Because University of Tirana is not in the Shanghai list. Do you know what criteria are for the list. 

You have nothing about copy paste.

You should go in scientific bases and you can see how little Albanians publish relevant scientific papers.

I told you. Serbia will help Albania in many areas including science, it is not disputed.

But for science it takes a lot of efforts. Science requires critical thinking, what missing enough in Albania.

And it is due to school system. Probably it is the reason why Albanian youth has no better results.

Cooperation is much better than confrontation, and in cooperation everyone can learn something.

----------


## LABERIA

> Laberia. Why do you show frustration?
> 
> Because Albanian science has no significant results.
> 
> Because University of Tirana is not in the Shanghai list. Do you know what criteria are for the list. 
> 
> You have nothing about copy paste.
> 
> You should go in scientific bases and you can see how little Albanians publish relevant scientific papers.
> ...


Just pls stop with your trollling and don't derail this thread with this so called help of Serbia. You have to provide first to the Albanians who are citizens of Serbia the medical care, because the government of Albania and Kosova are investing money in your country because this citizens are abandoned by your government.
About our scholars, we have people respected world wide and not criminals and charlatans like your pseudo scholars. TBH, i will feel shame if our scholars were at this level. 
Now pls again, stop derailing this thread. You are free to open a new thread where you can tell us about the glory of your country. If you insist with this trollling posts, i will open a new thread about this criminals that you consider scholars. 
Here in this thread there is a question for you, without answer:



> Just for curiosity, why the other people of Ex-Yougoslavia call you serbs "Vlasi", "Vlaji" or some other variation of the Vlach name?

----------


## Garrick

> Just pls stop with your trollling and don't derail this thread with this so called help of Serbia. You have to provide first to the Albanians who are citizens of Serbia the medical care, because the government of Albania and Kosova are investing money in your country because this citizens are abandoned by your government.
> About our scholars, we have people respected world wide and not criminals and charlatans like your pseudo scholars. TBH, i will feel shame if our scholars were at this level. 
> Now pls again, stop derailing this thread. You are free to open a new thread where you can tell us about the glory of your country. If you insist with this trollling posts, i will open a new thread about this criminals that you consider scholars. 
> Here in this thread there is a question for you, without answer:


I will ignore some nonsenses.

Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Now we can back to the thread.

Aromanians are important for this thread too.

Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.

----------


## Garrick

Diurpaneus
Please, excuse me because two posts which are not linked with thread but I had to put (Deretic is not scientist and nothing to do with history).

What do you think about Aromanians who had to left Albania and they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania. Are you investigate them?

----------


## LABERIA

> I will ignore some nonsenses.
> 
> Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.
> 
> Now we can back to the thread.
> 
> Aromanians are important for this thread too.
> 
> Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.


Don't you feel shame from yourself?

----------


## Diurpaneus

Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.


the fall of the intervocalic "n":


Latin granum,Romanian grau


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/symphonia#Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zampogna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsampouna

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cimpoi




"Une chose me paraît sûre en tout cas : la *çampona* de Garcilaso
comme celle de Sannazaro, c'est bien quelque chose comme la
gaita galicienne et asturienne, la bagpipe écossaise. Et peut-être
en est-il de même de la *çapona* (?) de l'Archiprêtre : lecture du
reste discutable, à laquelle le manuscrit de Tolède substitue
ca(n)pana. Et rien ne prouve que, là où il parle de* çinjonias*, ou
de simfonia, il fasse allusion au même instrument.""


http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_..._43_2_2906.pdf

http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_..._51_2_3184.pdf



http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/bl...gree-on-n.html


We can see the same differentiation in the case of flute,the Spanish,Portuguese,
Albanian and Greek terms are feminine,contrasting with the Romanian neuter.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flauta

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...81%CE%B1#Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flojere#Albanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fluier

----------


## Diurpaneus

> I thought you were claiming to be central Italian? There is no way a Central Italian would get 25-40% Asia Minor on National Geographic. How could you have gotten your Genographic results and not looked at the autosomal make up of Tuscans on it? They are 4% Asia Minor, lower than Greeks and Romanians, which makes sense from everything else we know about them, particularly in relationship to Greeks, where they plot north of even the more northern Greeks. 
> https://s22.postimg.io/y9x754ylb/Gen...uth_Europe.jpg





> The genetic projects like National Geographic or Family Tree DNA rely on
> circumstances,without having a statistical basis.
> This database from Family Tree DNA contains only the results of the Romanian Ashkenazi Jews.
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ia/dna-results
> 
> 
> https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults






> I have been to Italy and Spain,their most common anthropological type
> is Dinaric(it can also be expanded to Portugal,including Madeira's
> Cristiano Ronaldo) ,the Italians have also an important Alpine strain.
> In fact, the Dinaric type is consistently present in Ireland,not to mention France,England or
> Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Somehow,the Americans,the Canadians and the Latin Americans are pretty much Dinaric.
Now that the 3/4 of the World proudly represent this type,I would reverse
the exercise,who AREN'T Dinaric?


Maybe the Russians?


If in Romania they have used the Basarab surname ,in Russia I will switch to Volohov
and Vlasov:


vlasov_ak_0.jpg

Власов-1.jpg


Vlasov1.jpg


Vladimir-Volokhov-Belarus2.jpg



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/


http://press.nationalgeographic.com/...d-the-impaler/


https://www.opensocietyfoundations.o...raphic-society







About Romania

The never-ending transhumace had constantly moved the shepherds,starting with the Proto-Romanians,
from the mountains to the plains and back,from a region to another and vice-versa,creating a
strong uniformizing effect. Anthropologically,it would have only meant tendencies
towards Dinaricization.

EDIT

"Hanesh well says (p. 39) : "The unity of the Roumanian race in the trials of its early days, was maintained thanks to the shepherds. Passing with their flocks over the Carpathians and the Balkans and the broad Danubian plains, the Roumanians in the pastoral stage kept in constant touch with one another, spread and preserved the same language and the same ways. In time, part of the Roumanian race became farmers, part (after the founding of the Roumanian principalities) settled down as business men and officials, but part still remained shepherds, carrying on the same manner of life as their forebears of a thousand years before. Even today, these shepherds follow the same paths from the mountain to the plain, and the plain to the mountain, and continually cross the Baragan, the Dobrudja and Bessarabia."

http://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2006/10/


http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013...lin_nyomda.pdf


............. .............. ........................ ...................

EDIT

At least uncle Leo was a Jew.




EDIT

Uralophobia or Turkophobia weren't the themes of this post,because I don't hate these people,
it was only about taking things out of context for economic purposes.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
> the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
> This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
> cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
> The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.


I have found a better similarity,the Latin and French forms
are feminine,unlike the neuter ones from Romanian.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/landica


The word seems to had been taboo even for the Romans,we can
clearly see this from its occurrence within the Romance
languages,being preserved only in French and Romanian.
It couldn't have been different,because it represents
the rude form of a rude word.


Although the Proto-Romanian/Vlachs were considered,perhaps,of 
vicious vulgarity by the Byzantine authors, it can be hardly
concluded that their pre-Roman ancestors had proudly adopt the
term.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMj...20lamb&f=false


"In celebration of the marriage between Hrs and Kamytzes daughter Dobromir
gorged himself of food and wine. His wife, however, ate in reluctance
from plates placed in front of her respecting the code for behavior for
newlyweds. Hrs annoyed at her eating habits commanded her to eat with him.
And when she didn’t comply immediately he flew into a rage. Speaking
his native tongue(s) (Macedonian, Vlach, or both) for some time he 
spoke to his wife in Greek (Rhomaoi) with contempt
“Do not eat or drink”.(macedoniantruth.org)



Judging from the word's dispersion,I propose two theories,which
don't exclude each other,on the contrary:


1. This term could have only circulated through the army,both Gaul
and Dacia(plus the Danubian Moesia) were heavily militarized,
because of their strategic importance.
A further connection includes its almost exclusive medical usage in
writings.


2. Romanian has Northern Latin terms(see the earlier posts),the presence
of the related French word points to this category.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=609...andica&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_...:_the_clitoris


https://books.google.ro/books?id=GDP...edical&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

"In addition to the activity itself, shepherds were the factors that contributed to keepthe unity and the national consciousness in all the provinces inhabited by Romanians bypreserving the language, toponymy, religion and traditional customs and transmitting themfrom generation to generation."



"Themost difficult situation occurred in the first years of communist period when the flock weredramaticly reduced by the politics of forced collectivization.The transhumance was even forbidden between 1952 and 1955, being again stimulatedbetween 1965 and 1989, when the shepeherds used to be one of the few milionaires ofSocialist Romania (Drăgănescu, 1998)."

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013...lin_nyomda.pdf


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-sheepdog-law


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...sheepdogs.html


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/12...at-limits.html






https://www.google.ro/url?sa=i&rct=j...74195025152627

"It is worth mentioning that the current Romanian prime-minister Dacian Ciolos, a former EU commissioner for agriculture, was a member of the “Friends of Europe", an association funded by the Open Society foundation. A fact he forgot to disclose to the Romanian people. However, his government was often referred to as “the Government of Soros” due to the fact that it is entirely formed from former NGO activists, Soros students, managers of multinational corporations and ardent Atlanticists. So, this country today is openly ruled by the American billionaire."


http://www.firstfarms.dk/en/about-firstfarms/firstfarms-romania/

http://www.arc2020.eu/2015/07/new-re...bbing-romania/

"Land grabbing" is an innapropriate term ,because the "investor's" foreign
state offers consultation and financial support to facilitate this colonization.


"Petrom's huge workforce of 59,000, almost 10 times bigger than OMV's 6,100."(the figures at the privatization of Petrom)

economie.jpg


http://www.euronews.com/2014/12/05/c...s-energy-hopes


http://www.roconsulboston.com/Pages/...xonOMVGas.html

With these links I try to explain the genetic structure of Romania.
The Neolithic and the Bronze Age are well-known,but there had to be
an Oil Age too,to deal with burnings.
The pastoralists' wandering had just followed the instinct.

"There isn't always a direct connection between the genetic structure of a population
and its cultural or linguistic background"(Florin Stanciu ,the author of a DNA study).
Then, he and the moderator of "Garantat 100%" had an interesting smile.
He labels the Romanian population as "strongly Slavic"(that would have upset Coon and others),
BECAUSE IT HAS A SIMILAR GENETIC STRUCTURE
WITH THE SERBS,MACEDONIANS,CROATIANS AND BOSNIANS.
Although in the paper he admits that these connections can also indicate the Paleo-Balkanic element:

"Pe baza acestor rezultate, populaţia românească de sex masculin (pentru cei 9 şi 12 loci Y-STR analizați), este mai apropiată genetic de Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herţegovina şi Croația."

"În ceea ce priveşte similitudinile genetice dintre aceste populații, prin extrapolare, se pot emite două ipoteze principale: a) asemănarea genetică între aceste populații reflectă distribuţia unei populaţii paleo-balcanice, cum ar fi populația tracică sau b) evenimentul istoric recent cu cea mai mare influenţă asupra structurii genetice a populaţiei actuale, a fost migraţia slavă din nord-estul Europei către Peninsula Balcanică."

He didn't mention anything about the database either:

"Un număr de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sânge, fire de par, etc.) au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate şi alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecţi, victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6, în acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea şi funcţionarea Sistemului Naţional de Date Genetice Judiciare.
În vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate în studiul populațional de față, s-a ținut cont în primul rând de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede la Art. 11"

http://www.fundatia.ro/en/integrated...ty-central-and

The closest countries in the Y-STR analysis were Macedonia and Serbia,pointing to 
haplogroups like I2a and E-V13.

This is not an invitation to extremism,but only a response to degenerated ideas,
actions and behaviours.

EDIT:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=ht_...coarse&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

"Type of organization and
association between cattle owners, “the celnic” at Aromanian shepherds and the “the
păcurar” at Romanians, had similar functions".

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013...lin_nyomda.pdf


The Balkan Romance languages also have correspondences to the Romanian term,
such as the Aromanian picurar and picular,Megleno-Romanian picurar,
and Istro-Romanian pecuror.
These forms don't divert from the original Latin/Romance structure,
unlike Romanian,where "e"/"i" had shifted to "ă".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pecorarius


"In Tosk there exists (stressed) ë, an equivalent of Rum â, î, BulgЪ ъ .
This Tosk vowel corresponds to various nasal vowels in Geg."
(Orel,"Albanian Dictionary")


Actually, the common vowel with the Bulgarian and Tosk Albanian is "ă",
Orel was fortunately confused by the fact that the Romanian"â"/ "î" is the same
with the usual Slavic pronunciation of the Bulgarian character,
but it is no less true that in Bulgarian it(also) sounds like in Albanian
and Romanian.


The Romanian vowel is strongly related to certain phonetical shifts
that took place within the words of Latin origin.


Romanian bătrân,Latin veteranus
Romanian păr,Latin pilus
Romanian plămân,Latin pulmonem
Romanian băşică,Latin vesica
Romanian păsa,Latin pensare
Romanian vătăma,Latin victimare


This similarity suggests that,despite their actual location,the Tosks
have formed even further northwards,being in contact with the Romanians
and Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_alphabet

EDIT:

The vowel "ă" is also involved in the sound shifts of the Southern Danubian
Romance,but its occurrence is rarer.


Aromanian bitãrnu
Arom,Istro-R and Megleno-R per
Arom. pălmună (plimună), istr. plumăre.
Arom. bișică, megl. bișocă 
Arom. vatăm, vătămare, megl. vatăm

----------


## Diurpaneus

> EDIT:
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=ht_...coarse&f=false



The Vlach shepherds' rivalry is one of the main themes of this old Romanian folk ballad called "Miorita"("The Young Ewe"),its ancient origin is supported by the above link.

"*Near a low foothill*
*At Heavens doorsill,*
*Where the trails descending*
*To the plain and ending,*
*Here three shepherds keep*
*Their three flocks of sheep,*
*One, Moldavian,*
*One, Transylvanian*
*And one, Vrancean.*
*Now, the Vrancean*
*And the Transylvanian*
*In their thoughts, conniving,*
*Have laid plans, contriving*
*At the close of day*
*To ambush and slay*
*The Moldavian;*
*He, the wealthier one,*
*Had more flocks to keep,*
*Handsome, long-horned sheep,*
*Horses, trained and sound,*
*And the fiercest hounds."

*http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita%20-eng.html


Another Proto-Romanian motif is the messenger sent to lie the shepherd's mother,
trying to hide his death,the Old Aromanian funeral traditions similarly implied that the 
herdsman's fellows would announce his mother about the departure of his son abroad
(or in the mountains)with his sheeps.The motif seems to be of pre-Christian Greek-Roman origin.

"How I met my death,
Tell them not a breath;
Say I could not tarry,
I have gone to marry
............................

Should you meet somewhere,
My old mother, little,
With her white wool girdle,
Eyes with their tears flowing,
Over the plains going,
Asking one and all,
Saying to them all,
Who has ever known,
Who has seen my own
Shepherd fine to see,
Slim as a willow tree,
With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheats ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe"



pg.8:

http://www.proiectavdhela.ro/pdf/n_s...du_miorita.pdf





"In a traditional Romanian funeral song (available on Romanian EthnographicLandscapes) a mother mourns her son, comparing his short life to a garden flower
and with the morning dew. The most noteworthy thing about this song is the
mother’s conviction that her son’s life is over (unlike the garden flower which will
grow again). Nothing was left from the famous Dacian certitude of immortality, and
no explicit Christian hope for resurrection either. He is dead forever leaving his
mother “in deep sorrow”. The mother also mentions that she would have lived long
enough to organize his wedding instead of the funeral ceremony. An interesting
variation of this motif is also present in Mioriţa, where the mother of the young
shepherd, eventually killed by his companions, is told that her son disappeared, not
because he died, but because he married an Emperor’s daughter. The grief is too
great to be endured"

"This attitude is ritualistic and it does not depend on private feelings.
Obviously the Roman influence was so strong that the famous Dacian “joy of death”
seems almost forgotten."


http://www.philologica-jassyensia.ro..._2_Cap-Bun.pdf

----------


## Diurpaneus

The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.


The man is Dinaric,most likely of Macedonian ancestry or from the
Macedonian-Greek-Paleo-Balkanic spectrum.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mqiWarrior.jpg


"His headband could be a diadem, a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry



"In the army there were 25,000 Macedonians, 7,600 Greeks, and 7,000 Thracians and Illyrians, but the chief officers were all Macedonians, and Macedonians also commanded the foreign troops"

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html


"Because the two symbols of Achilles (Chiron) and Heracles (Nemean lion skin) are combined,the tapestry might also be a representation of Alexander the Great — he referred to these as histwo ancestors and was often represented with large eyes."

"Descended from the Argead kings of Argos, Alexander claimed Heracles as his ancestor; thus he was consideredto belong to the first generation in the lineage of this royal family that started with Heracles’s legendary son,Temenos. Alexander believed himself to be a relative of Achilles through his mother as well. Although the blue-eyedking represented on the Sampul tapestry does not really look like Alexander, the association with Chiron andHeracles should indicate a certain degree of ethnic connection, if not a lineage."
(SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS)

EDIT

My observations antedate copy-paste.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...491c172dd6.jpg

EDIT2

He had probably acquired some Central Asian/Bactrian sets of genes,but his main traits
remain Dinaric.In any case,if there was a Khotanese stylization,the effects are obviously
milder,because the man strongly resembles by his Dinaricity,the Aromanians,the Macedonian
Greeks,the Macedonian Macedonians,the Greeks or the other Balkanic people.

----------


## Diurpaneus

> I was recently to Madrid,in a coffee-shop I have met two Spaniards and the discussion went
> towards their opinion about the Romanians.One of them smiled at me "The only problem with the 
> Romanians is that they work too much!",
> "why?",I answered,"I think that's because of Communism",he replied;
> "It's much more than that;they work hard,because they want to have much,so they can joyfully
> and proudly present to their neighbours and friends what they have accomplished,saying
> 'I have done something in my life',that's our old way of doing things",was my response.
> This mentality also exists in the Aromanian families.
> 
> ...



This image can be easily found in the rural novels,
strongly contrasting to the Romanian/Vlach pattern
created during Communism,where the man always finds the moral
strength and wisdom to return to decency,which in his
case is identified with misery.


Even in the anti-Communist novel Morometii, the head of the
family accepts,with a sarcastic wisdom, his condition,but their sons won't,
in the old manner.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=SXk...apital&f=false




The pre-Communist novels clearly present the reality,where the shepherds
and the peasants have ( using moral methods or not,based on intelligence or initiave)
to become wealthy.Way beyond the physical advantages,stands their will to gain a better
social status.
Ion is such a case,he realizes that,despite being the best worker from the village,his low rank
within the community follows him everywhere,and he can't stand it,planning to marry a rich girl,
instead of his lover.The power of this novel is that,even today many Romanian peasants 
still can identify themselves with the hero.


Although their strategy seems flawless, having in many moments cold blood,
their great ambition makes them psychologically unstable to a certain degree,
both innerly and outerly expressed.

http://theculturetrip.com/europe/rom...nian-identity/


https://books.google.ro/books?id=gw9...easant&f=false

----------


## Yetos

> The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
> that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
> peoples' faces simply as they really were.
> 
> "His headband could be a diadem, a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
> – and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry


wow,

I had never heard of that,

that is really interesting,

----------


## Diurpaneus

> wow,
> 
> I had never heard of that,
> 
> that is really interesting,


Search for the EDIT2 and you'll see.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Tracking the Romanian habit of having much(non-Communist element).


It may sound odd,but those fluffy sheeps have made big bucks at least
since the Early Middle Ages,way before the English wool/cloth had
reached Anvers.The Vlachs enter the history described as shepherds,
merchants,warriors and horsemen.The linguistic evidence prove that
the commercial activity was, like the other above-mentioned attributes,
originary,many words pertaining to this domain were preserved from Latin
(Grigore Brancusi,"Introducere in Istoria Limbii Romane"),representing
the great majority of the economical ones:
vinde(to sell),cumpara(to buy),imprumuta(to borrow),negot(business),
schimba(to change),datorie(debt),pierde(to lose),incarca(to load),
descarca(unload),pret(price),castiga(to earn,gain),capata(ultimately
from capitalis;to earn,gain)etc.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A2%C8%99tiga

http://www.agerpres.ro/engleza-desti...story-14-08-19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ora%C8%99ul_de_Floci


"According to old documents and maps, thecommercial road going down from central Europe tothe center of Transylvania passed the Danubethrough Vadu Oii shallow, following Ialomiţa Riverto the Black Sea. Ever since Mircea cel Bătrân reignthere was a custom house near Vadu Oii shallow andalso a gantry at the Danube shore for trading ships.Markets formed nearby the custom house and thegantry where traders stopped, every so often at first,then permanently. Around the market developedlater Floci Town"



Vadu Oii is the place from where you can cross the Danube,it means the Sheep's Ford.


http://www.turist-in-romania.ro/ialomita/obiective/OrasuldeFloci.pdf





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotino


The Vlach's commercial and military spirit had led them to create a
concentrated form of autonomy called The Vlach Law.
We have to remember this form of organization,otherwise will become 
like Congo.

http://www.romania-insider.com/roman...-decline-2016/

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html

----------


## Diurpaneus

> "[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
> the text from Kekaumenos, "Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés
> 
> 
> 
> For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
> Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
> for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the 
> Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.
> ...



The Crusaders further localize the northern part of "Bessi", in the land situated along the same Morava valley,
between Ravna(Ravno)-Cuprija (the former Horreum Margi) and Nis, calling it "Terra Blacti".
This community, together with a hypothetical Vlach group that "lived along the Danube and Sava,where now the Serbs live",
couldn't be named "Dacians",because Kekaumenos knew that both lands were also owned by the Bulgarians,even for the Crusaders,
the events took place in,along or beyond the "Bulgarian Forest"; these regions were politically/administratively/geographically connected,
making the coordinates(Dacians,Danube and Sava,Serbs) totally unuseful.




"The ‘Bulgarian forest’ which stretched between Belgrade and Nis delayed the
crusaders’ passage into the empire, and gave the imperial commander
five to eight days to prepare for their reception and onward journey."


"Forests abounded in
the region to the west and north of Nis, running right up to the Danube
between its confluence with the Sava and the Velika Morava. Arnold of
Lübeck (118) wrote of the infamous Bulgarian forest (Bulgarewalt) where
marshes impeded the progress of those on horseback or pulling wagons."
(Paul Stephenson,Byzantium's Balkan Frontier")




"Otici imperialia, koje je
nastalo 1211. godine, pominje „Branicevo kraj Dunava” (Brandiz super
Danubium) i „zemlju Vlaha“ (terra Blacti), koju smešta izmedu „mesta
Ravno i mesta Niš“ (vicus Ravana et vicus Nifa). Mesto vicus Ravana, koje
se i u drugim latinskim izvorima pominje pod imenom civitas ili oppidum
Rabinel, jeste srednjovekovni grad Ravno, blizu današnje Cuprije na Moravi,
a vicus Nifa je iskvareni oblik grafije Nissa ili Nisse, koja potice od antickog
naziva Naissus (Niš)."(ROMANIZACIJA I ROMANSKO STANOVNIŠTVO TIMOCKE ZONE OD IDO XVI VEKA)












Both terms "Serbs" and "along the Danube and Sava" were purely militarily,reminding that Sirmium have been the seat of
the strategos of Serbia,the second geographic coordinate being involved as well in the contacts with Hungary.
Although of south Danubian origin,the two notions have been used to differentiate the land located north of it somehow,
because both the Hungarians and Pechenegs were called "Dacians".Without knowing some North-Danubian toponimy,
Kekaumenos uses the Byzantine correspondents,in a well-known fashion.
This association, "Serbs-Danube and Sava", became necessary only from the North-Danubian perspective,because,if the author would have
noted"the Vlachs are Dacians (and Bessi) who lived along the Danube where now the BULGARIANS live",the reader wouldn't have been
able to understand if they were located near the Hungarian Dacians or Pecheneg Dacians,the base from which he could construct the split
being in the same time way too homogenous,therefore, ambiguous. 


He knows that these are the only terms who can be used in the Danube frontier to create a differentiation,having the
only purpose to project it northwards.




"In some cases, they
designate with the term Dacians the Pechenegs and Hungarians."
(Concerning the Identification of the Getae, Dacians and Dacia,
from the Byzantine's Woritings ofthe 10-15lh Centuries")


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Q9K...acians&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S...1185-1196).png


http://www.explore-bulgaria.net/expl...ap-kaloyan.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...1040-1041).svg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_Peter_Delyan



"We know that he served under Michael IV, and, together with Harald Hardrada, in the campaign of 1041 against Deljan,
in Bulgaria (97.18); that he witnessed the downfall of Michael V, on 20th April 1042 (59.7-8, 100.13-16); 
and that at some time he served as strategos of Hellas (60.19)"




"As to the geographical location of the stories, fourteen can be located in Hellas or the Balkans; of these, four are
stories about K's relations, and three arise from the revolt of Deljan. Three more of these are concerned with the attacks
by the Pechenegs."


http://www.ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/libr...l-body.1_div.8



The Vlachs were reliable sources of information,because that was one of their main jobs within 
the Byzantine Empire,their positions ranged from road guards and defenders of strategic places(like castles,fortresses etc)
to scouting and spying the enemies.
Their role in the Empire's Intelligence must have been important,since the Byzantines had clearly expressed their despair
after the Vlachs' betrayals,that's why the Asen brothers, Dobromir Chrysos or Ivanko were so succesful, because they knew when,where
and how to act.Kekaumenos would have had alot of opportunities to gather informations from them,directly,being enlisted in his armies or/and
meeting them in Greece(Madgearu says that his place of origin was Larissa) or other places,or indirectly,through the accounts of his relative,
Niculitzas.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...ithful&f=false




http://www.academia.edu/18072996/Vla...pje_2015_47-55

EDIT

A better map,presenting Vranje,Nis and Ravna aligned along the Morava .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...van_Asen_2.png

----------


## Dibran

> The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.
> 
> Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:
> 
> *N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)* 
> *Nea Nikomedeia* 8 149 *1725 BC 2470 BC* 
> Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC 
> Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC 
> Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC 
> ...





> Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.
> 
> E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.
> 
> Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.


When did the Balkan marker for R1a1a come into Albania?

----------


## DuPidh

> I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably *more* R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably *less* E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.
> 
> I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority). 
> 
> The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.


Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage. 
It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Traditional Megleno-Romanian song(from 3:05),preserved in an isolated community
from Turkey:






"So good are the girls
Hey,hey,the girls
Like milk in the spring"


For these lads,the kind girls become tasty without even noticing,it seems
that the refrain from the second verse is used in this purpose.


We can find the same connection in the Romanian folk ballad Miorita,
where the shepherd's gentleness,innocence and beauty
is compared with milk.


"With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheats ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe?"


http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita%20-eng.html

This article presents some semantic shifts that occured within the
Old Wallachian speech in order to denote or enhance affectivity and
harmony.In fact,this process took place in the Arges county,having the
core in my grandparents' area,from where it has diffused through transhumance.

http://www.mi.bxb.ro/Articol/MI_29_6.pdf

----------


## Yetos

> Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. *Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker*. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also *Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage.* 
> It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
> Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.



you mean Messopotamia?
is an Anatolian toponym?
and Greeks are J2a1

----------


## ihype02

You guys are ridiculous.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Codru comes 100% from Latin,see also the identical Portuguese expression codra do pao(bread's crust).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/codru


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kod%C3%ABr#Albanian


https://books.google.ro/books?id=pTt...%20pao&f=false


https://books.google.ro/books?id=zlc...0bread&f=false

----------


## Diurpaneus

Another word inherited from Latin is catun,Albanian katund,meaning highland dispersed village,opposed to a 
compact Romanian sat,Aromanian fsat,Albanian fshat,from Latin fossatum,located on the lowlands/flatlands.


http://www.academia.edu/23527880/ANC...MOYEN-%C3%82GE

Aromanian has preserved an additional term,equivalent with catun,falcare,from Latin falcaria(or is it from
falcare,which in Italian means "curved"?these two words come from falx,a sickle,having the semantics centred 
in the Italian meaning-curved,having the shape of a sickle-because it represents a well-known Romance development,
for example, Albanian felqine,Romanian/Balkanic Romance falca*,a jaw,this kind of shift also apprears in Sardinian);


Similarly,French canton and Italian cantone originates in the Latin canto(corner),their Romance constructions
must have been derived from cantonum,who is also the root of the Romanian and Albanian terms.
Cantonum has suffered typical Romanian phonetical shifts to turn to catun.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=canton

Latin o,Romanian u
Latin bonus,Romanian bun



Dissimilation with the loss of sound


Latin fratre,Romanian frate
Latin cantonum,Romanian catun



*These semantic changes, from a domain to another**, were typically Latin/Romance developments,
not to mention that the Romanian-Albanian shift is not isolated,as it was previously suggested,
another example being Romanian spate(back),from Latin spatha(sword),who actually has a Romance
correspondent,Latin spatula,French epaule(Marius Sala's list).
The Albanian-Romanian/Balkanic Romance shifts don't represent the influence of the "substratum",
but the independent developments in the spirit of Latin/Romance that took place in the so-called
Eastern Latin.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/falc%C4%83

**ceata(fog), (< lat. caecia(blindness),only in Romanian(it sounds pretty lyrical,thus,literary);
the alternative is negura,Albanian njegull,from Latin nebula.


dezmierda (< lat. *dismerdare,only in Romanian(and Balkan Latin)



" This is also indicated by the changes of meaning of a number of Latin words, many of which are shared by
Romanian and Albanian. There are, for example, N. Rom. padure, Alb. püli "forest," from Lat. palus 
(genitive paludis), Vulgar Lat. padule "marsh"; N. Rom. ses, Alb. shesh "lowland," from Lat. sessum (sedere "to sit").
Other examples of changes of meaning shared by Romanian and Albanian are words of everyday use, such as N. Rom. cuvînt "word,
" cuvînta "to say, to utter, to speak," Alb. kuvendoj "I discuss," from Lat. conventus "district court, session, agreement";
N. Rom. cui "nail," Alb. kuj, with the same sense, from Lat. cuneus "wedge."(Elemer Illyes)






"The two languages are also alike in their use of substantive
constructions rather than the infinitive. It is particularly important that
the meaning of some words of Latin origin underwent the same type
of change in Rumanian as in Albanian:
Lat. conventus "gathering, meeting"; Dr. cuvînt, Alb. kuvënd
"speech"; -
Lat. draco "dragon"; Dr. drac, Alb. dreq "devil"; -
*Lat. falx "sickle"; Dr. falcã, Alb. fëlqinë‚ "jaw" –*
Lat. horreo ´I shudder (with horror)´; Dr. urãsc, Alb. urrej "I
hate"; -
Lat. mergo "I sink"; Dr. merg "I go", Alb. mërgonj " I remove";
Lat palus, paludem. (palude) "swamp"; Dr. pãdure, Alb. pyll
forest
Lat. sella "chair"; Dr. ºale "waist"; Alb, shalë‚ "thigh, leg". –
190
Lat. sessus "session"; Dr. ºes, Alb. shesh "plains"
Lat. veteranus "veteran"; Dr. bãtrîn, Alb. vjetër "old"."(Origins of the Rumanians,Hungarian paper)




P.S.


I won't blame Angela for suggesting that we are some sort of Italianized Illyrian pirates,
who used to let their sheeps on the Albanian riviera,it was her own way to bring us closer.

EDIT:

I have nothing against Albanians or Illyrians,but it is hard to believe that their semi-Romanization
took place on a ship.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Similarities between Romanian and Calabrian


R. insura,C. nzurar,to marry(a woman).Latin inuxorare,uxor=wife
R. amar,amarat,C. amaru,poveretto, the initial 
sense is bitter, from Latin amarus
R. acatarii,with qualities,fine,C. accattari,to buy,buying
R. arama,C. arama,Italian rame,copper,brass
R aseara, C arzira,Italian ieri sera,yesterday evening
R aseza,sede,C assettari,Italian sedere,to sit
R unde,C aundi,Italian dove,where
Latin l>>>>Romanian,Calabrian r
Latin o>>>>Romanian,Calabrian u
C barcunu,Italian balcone
R caragata( read caragazza),C carcarazza,Italian gazza,magpie
R cas,C casu,Italian formaggio,cheese
R cireasa,C cerasa,Italian ciliegia,cherry
Latin j, preserved in Calabrese and Wallachian
C jocari,Wallachian juca(joc=play),Italian giocare,Moldavian giuca(gioc=play),to play
C jovi,Wallachian joi,Italian giovedi,Thursday
In the northern Romanian dialects(Transylvanian and Moldavian) j is replaced by other Latin sounds ,dz(written z in Italian) and g.


R curea,C curia,I cintura,belt
R marita,C maritari,Italian sposare, to marry
R nana,C nanna,Italian nonna
Latin b>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian g
Romanian bine,Aromanian,Moldavian ghini,good
Latin nebula,Italian nebbia,Calabrian nigghia,Albanian njegulle,Romanian negura
R nepotei,C niputeji, Italian nepotini,nephews,diminutive form
R nora,C nora,Italian nuora,daughter in law
R orb,C orbu,Italian cecco,blind
R ou,C ovu, Italian uovo,egg
Transylvanian pacurar,C pecuraru,Aromanian picurar,pecurar,Italian pastore,shepherd
Calabrese pedi,Italin piedi,feet
Latin pedica,North Romanian pedica,Moldavian chedica,Calabrian pedicinu,Wallachian piedica,Italian piedica,shackle,fetter
R piersica,C persicu,perzica,Italian pesca,peach
R soarece, C surice,Italian topo,mouse
R turn,turnu(tower),C turnu,Italian turno(turn,shift,sentry or guard duty)
The use of the term <man> to denote the husband
R om, C uominu,italian marito,husband
Wallachian scufunda,Calabrian skuffundare,Transylvanian and Moldavian cufunda,to dive.


R tamp,tampit,C ntumpa,Italian stupida
R foc,Old Romanian focu,C focu,italian fuoco,fire
R musca,C musca,Italian mosca,fly
R luni,C luni,I lunedi,Monday
R marti C marti,I martedi,Tuesday
Wallachian miercuri,North Romanian mercuri,C mercuri,I mercoledi,Wednesday
R vineri, C venneri,I venerdi,Friday
R duminica,C dominica,I domenica,Sunday
R muiere, C mugliera,muggjeri, I moglie
R rusine,C russure, I vergogna,shame
R soacra, C socra,I suocera, mother in law
R ulm,ulmu,C ulmu,I olmo,elm
R unu,C unu,Italian uno,one
???R zimbru(wisent), C zzimbaru(montone,shepherd.s deputy) ,zimbaru,maschio della capra
The Romanian word seems to be formed from a Proto-Romanian Calabrian-like term, under the influence of the Slavic zonbru.
Other phonetical traits
Latin e >>>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian i
Latin f >>>>>>Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian,Spanish,Portug uese h
Latin p>>>>>> Calabrian,Moldavian,Aromanian c
*Conclusions*
*The closest Italian dialects are the Southern ones,Pugliese and Calabrese,because they were in contact with the Romanian language through the route which connected Southern Italy ,through Naissus and Lissus,with the Danube.It is a strong evidence for the autonomy of the Romanian language,the links with the dialects from northern Italy can be explained by the ecclesiastical influence of Aquileia over the Prefectura Illyricum.*my conclusions


*http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53540796http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53540796The most direct route between the southern Adriatic and the central Balkans is thatfrom Lissus at the mouth of the Albanian Drin to Naissus in the Morava valley (RV.1-11).More than once it has been suggested that some of the early Roman expeditions into theBalkans may have followed this line, following the Drin valley to reach Kosovo and thelater mining district around Ulpianum and then the Toplica valley to Naissus. (Roman Danube Survey)


The Roman itinerary road Lissus–Naissus–Ratiaria was, as is well-known, atransversal communication across the central Balkans connecting the Adriaticcoast and the Danube Basin. Taking into account the maritime routebetween the Italic port of Brundisium and Lissus, it was the shortest linkbetween the capital of the Empire and the Danubian limes. Namely, theAppian Way led from Rome to Brundisium, and thence ships sailed to theBalkan Peninsula, where an overland route from Lissus continued along theDrim valley and across the highlands of present-day Albania and Serbia(mostly Kosovo and Metohija) to the Niš Basin with the ancient city ofNaissus at its centre. From Naissus, the road ran along the Timok river valley,took a northeast turn across Kadibogaz, a pass on Stara Planina (northwesternpart of the Balkan Mountain range), and ended at Ratiaria, a Romancolony (present-day Archar on the Danube, Bulgaria). In the period ofthe Empire’s expansion and consolidation of the border on the Danube, theroad was predominantly used for military purposes, for the transportationof troops and supplies to the Danubian limes. With the onset of mining activitiesin Upper Moesia, this important road began to be used for exportingores and thus assumed economic, i.e. commercial, importance.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0...530839047P.pdf

----------


## Diurpaneus

Romanian murg,the typical reddish dark-brown horse
Romanian amurg,dusk
Albanian murg, monk
Calabrian murga,Italian morchia dell ollio


Mùrga - mùrghi : Morchia dell’olio, > amùrca .
Mùrga : Morchia dell’olio che nel frantoio viene incanalata(Antonio Pisano,Dizionario Dialettale Calabrese)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/murg#Romanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amurg


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/amurca#Latin





From Antonio Pisano"s Dizionario Dialettale Calabrese


Romanian cusuta,Calabrian cusuta,Italian cucita,sewed
R jurai,C jurai,I ho giurato,I swore
R lotru,C latru,I ladro,thief
R laptuca,C lattuca,I lattuga
R loc,C locu,I luogo,place
R spaima,C spagna,I mette paura,fear
R tata,C tata, I padre,father
R negru,C nigru,I nero,black
R pruna,C pruna,I prugna,plum
R spate,C spadhi,I spalla,back
Wallachian,Megleno-Romanian muma(mother),C mauma,I mia madre
R literary sora mea, R popular sor-mea,C sorma,I mia sorella
R lit. sora ta,R popular sor-ta,C sortta,I tua sorella


EDIT
Latin c>>>>>>>>Romanian ,Calabrian g
The Calabrian pronounciation of Calabria,Galabria
Calabrian arangu,Italian arancia
Latin stancus(tired),Romanian stang(left),the semantic shift is explained 
by the position of the heart
Latin scabia,Romanian zgaiba,scratch

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/st%C3%A2ng

----------


## Diurpaneus

Romanian ce faci?Puglian ce sta faci? Italian che fai?
R. puță(read puzza),P pizza, I.cazzo
R sunt,P sontu,I sono,am,are
R cine sunteti,P chi sinti?,I chi sei?
R cioara(crow),P ciola(magpie)
The term "christian",meaning person,people
R crestin,P cristianu,I persona
R coaie,P cuiuni,I testicoli
R culme,P culme,colmo,I monticello
R cumatra,P cummmare,I madrina
R curea, P curiscia, I cintura
R cutit,P curtieddhu,I coltello
R doi,P doi,I due
R frate,P frate,I fratello
R fier,P fierru,I ferro
Aromanian furnu,P furnu,I forno
R manz(colt),P manzaru(montone,ariete)
R mâță(read mazza),P musscia,I gatto
R insurat,P nzuratu,I sposato
R ou,P ou,I uovo
R rusine,P ruscina, I sporco,dirty,obscene
R sarcina,P sarcina, I fascio
R spinare,P spinnare,I spennare
R nun,P nununne,I padrino



http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=53634683




Brinnisi(Puglian pronunciation),Brindisi(Italian pronunciation)
Latin brandeum,Aromanian brana,Romanian brau(plural form brana),popular Romanian brana ,traditional belt
Latin granum,Aromanian gran,Romanian grau(plural grane),Istro-Romanian grawu


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/br%C3%A2u

----------


## Diurpaneus

> *These semantic changes, from a domain to another**, were typically Latin/Romance developments, *Lat. falx "sickle"; Dr. falcã, Alb. fëlqinë‚ "jaw" –*Lat. sella "chair"; Dr. ºale "waist"; Alb, shalë‚ "thigh, leg". –190Lat. sessus "session"; Dr. ºes, Alb. shesh "plains"


because there are some clear patterns.Sense changes :Embarrassment: bject>>>>>body part,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a bstract>>>>geographical term,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,anothe r thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,The terms for church,Romanian biserica,Old Romanian baseareca,basearica,Aromanian basearica,Megleno-Romanian baserica,came from the Latin form baseleca(Nelu Zugravu),these are all related to some Southern Italian terms.https://nap.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel...Baselecara,the local name of Basilicata.http://pulcinella291.forumfree.it/?t=56180038EDIT esti o capra basinoasa,mititica si paroasa,cati un arici iubaret,cu lipici, da si fasnet http://ro.bab.la/dictionar/romana-en...3-despre-femei https://nap.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel...a_Lucia_a_Mare

----------


## Dinarid

It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.

----------


## DuPidh

> It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.


Have you heard of a province in southern Romania called Vlachia?

----------


## DuPidh

> It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.


 What makes you think it makes more sense for Vlachs to originate in Albania instead of Vlachia?

----------


## Dinarid

> Have you heard of a province in southern Romania called Vlachia?


Yes, I have. It's unclear as to how it got its name, though it is probably related to the Vlachs though if this is the case that would mean they probably migrated there. "Vlach" was what Slavs called the Romanian people.

----------


## Apsurdistan

And Muslim Bosnians also call Serbs "Vlah", plural Vlasi. At least the region I'm from (Posavina) mostly the older generations call them that.

----------


## LABERIA

> And Muslim Bosnians also call Serbs "Vlah", plural Vlasi. At least the region I'm from (Posavina) mostly the older generations call them that.


Because they are Vlachs settlers, brought by Ottomans to protect the borders. But they were also used for the same purpose by the Austrian. This people later were serbianised from the Serb orthodox Church. In some Ottoman sources Lazar Hrebeljanović is called son of the vlach meanwhile serbs are called eflaks, i.e. Vlachs.

----------


## LABERIA

> It's fascinating that the original homeland of the Vlachs corresponds almost exactly to modern Albania. I take it that's just one theory and not generally accepted? If so it would leave me wondering about the origins of the people we now know as Albanians who call themselves shqiptarët. Perhaps the Vlachs and Albanians have an ancient connection.


It's one theory. But you have to know that there are different people, unrelated among them who are called Vlachs. For example the Vlachs of Croatia are not related with the Vlachs in South Balkan. The majority of Vlachs in South Balcan were and are to be found in Thessaly. This region once was called Greater Wlachia. The history of the Vlachs is complicated and it's a great enigma.
Meanwhile the origin of the Albanians is from the territories where we live.

----------


## Dinarid

> It's one theory. But you have to know that there are different people, unrelated among them who are called Vlachs. For example the Vlachs of Croatia are not related with the Vlachs in South Balkan. The majority of Vlachs in South Balcan were and are to be found in Thessaly. This region once was called Greater Wlachia. The history of the Vlachs is complicated and it's a great enigma.
> Meanwhile the origin of the Albanians is from the territories where we live.


As I understand it the small Romance-speaking groups of the Balkans of a tribal nature (so not the Adriatic islanders who spoke that old Dalmatian Romance) were referred to as "Vlachs", suggesting something of a common origin for _some_ of them. This is of course complicated by the fact that some South Slavs refer to each other by the name as well.

----------


## Diurpaneus

Marriages controlled by the couple"s families were something common until recently,surely not only for the South Italian, Romanian/Aromanian and Bulgarian people.However,we see this obsession of the South Italian and Romanian/Aromanian people to preserve or more often,to try to raise their social status,this competition starts identically in both cases,when the dowry starts to be prepared soon after the child is born,being defended like the richest stronghold,the Romanian youngster will always marry the richer girl,surely not his lover, and the rural novel Ion has full coverage here.My grandfather from Baragan has done the same and he and his mates had a saying for this:'De la mine a treia casaMa insurai si luai nevastaO luai cu patru boiS-o turma mare de oiBoii tragOile imi placDar cu toanta ce-am sa fac?'"From my place to the third houseI got married and got a spouseI took her with 4 bullsAnd a large flockThe bulls pullThe sheeps I like the mostBut the silly girlI haven,t yet lost"Another common thing for both the Romanians and the Aromanians is this temptation,urge,to break the rules,in the Aromanian documentary Carvanea Armaneasca the couple escapes from the community party,but the man has certain doubts,"Your folks will gonna break my bones!",in the Romanian rural novels like Ion and Morometii or the documentary film Aluna of the Serbian Vlach people we see the typical Romanian scene ,where the man expects the girl or woman in an isolated portion of the road to approach her,the sweet little female won\t get borred,that,s for sure(because the methods are...well,at least complicated).That's why these episodes with Ivancu or Ivanko look tipically Romanian/Vlach.http://www.tuomatrimonio.eu/tradizio...mb&f=falseEDIT YOU STUPID PENGUINS ,FIX MY POSTS....NOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!http://www.tuomatrimonio.eu/tradizio...itions-part-1/https://www.tentazionedonna.it/paese...i-in-calabria/http://www.encyclopedia.com/places/s...ography/vlachshttps://djaunter.com/bulgarian-weddi...itions-part-1/https://djaunter.com/bulgarian-weddi...itions-part-1/https://books.google.it/books?id=LvV...20kill&f=falsehttps://books.google.it/books?id=LvV...20kill&f=falsehttps://books.google.it/books?id=tMj...20lamb&f=falseEDIT VA IA MAMA DRACU DE LICURICI SPURCATI

----------


## Diurpaneus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njd4...?v=De63RICDLO8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De63RICDLO8

----------


## Diurpaneus

Marriages controlled by the couple"s families were something common until recently,surely not only for the South Italian, Romanian/Aromanian and Bulgarian people.However,we see this obsession of the South Italian and Romanian/Aromanian people to preserve or more often,to try to raise their social status,this competition starts identically in both cases,when the dowry starts to be prepared soon after the child is born,being defended like the richest stronghold,the Romanian youngster will always marry the richer girl,surely not his lover, and the rural novel Ion has full coverage here.My grandfather from Baragan has done the same and he and his mates had a saying for this:'De la mine a treia casaMa insurai si luai nevastaO luai cu patru boiS-o turma mare de oiBoii tragOile imi placDar cu toanta ce-am sa fac?'"From my place to the third houseI got married and got a spouseI took her with 4 bullsAnd a large flockThe bulls pullThe sheeps I like the mostBut the silly girlI haven,t yet lost"Another common thing for both the Romanians and the Aromanians is this temptation,urge,to break the rules,in the Aromanian documentary Carvanea Armaneasca the couple escapes from the community party,but the man has certain doubts,"Your folks will gonna break my bones!",in the Romanian rural novels like Ion and Morometii or the documentary film Aluna of the Serbian Vlach people we see the typical Romanian scene ,where the man expects the girl or woman in an isolated portion of the road to approach her,the sweet little female won\t get borred,that,s for sure(because the methods are...well,at least complicated).That's why these episodes with Ivancu or Ivanko look tipically Romanian/Vlach.IVANCU,RAISING THE STAKES:https://books.google.it/books?id=tMj...20lamb&f=falseIvanko (Bulgarian: Иванко) killed Ivan Asen I, ruler of the renascent Second Bulgarian Empire, in 1196. The murder occurred when Asen angrily summoned Ivanko to discipline him for having an affair with his wife's sister.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanko_of_Bulgariahttps://books.google.it/books?id=LvV...sister&f=falseThe Aromanian song Treili Inveasti posted on Romanian music speaks of these kind of events.

----------


## Alexandru www

From Alexandru


Oscan features in Romanian and Southern Italian


Latin o>>>>>>Oscan, S. Italian,Romanian u


Oscan vocabulary


nú – novius – new [IE *newo- ‘new’]


pru – pro – for, instead of
prúfatted – probavit – he has shown, proven


púst – post – after
pústiris – posterius – posterior
pustmas – postumae
putíans – possint – they would be able
púuttram – pontem – a bridge (acc.sg.)




Italian Napoli,Napoletano Napule


"Variation between o and u (only in the Latin alphabet, 
of course, since the native alphabet has no o), mostly in the case of original"(A Grammar of Oscan and Umbrian)


Romanian o-u variation


Transylvanian durmi,Aromanian durniri,Durmitor,a mountain from Montenegro,Wallachian,Moldavian dormi
Wallachian ruman,Moldavian,Transylvanian(Palia de la Orastie) roman





"For example, pjéskje ("rocks" or "stones") is related to Oscan *psk."(Molise language)


Romanian pisc,Etymology Uncertain,peak, summit (of a hill or mountain)






Latin q>>>>>>Oscan,Romanian p




R.apă 'water' (cf. Latin aqua)


patru 'four' (cf. Latin quattor)


iapă, 'horse' (cf. Latin equa)


păresimi, 'Lent' (cf. Latin quadragesima)




O,


four: petora
water: aapa






Diphtong au,preserved in S Italian and Romanian,possibly under the influence of the
Oscan substratum.


"10th cent. From Latin aut 'id.' From either *aut-i 'id.' in Proto-Italic.
From Proto-Indo-European *h2eu̯ "away."
Romance: Western Vulgar Latin: Asturian o, Portuguese ou, Galician ou, Catalan o, French ou, Italian o ;
Eastern Vulgar Latin: Romanian au,Italic: Oscan aut "or," Umbrian ute 'id.'"




Oscan-Latin
aut – at – and, also
censaum – censere – to estimate, to evaluate
moltaum – multare – to increase, to multiply

The loss of au in Albanian


Latin aurum,Albanian ar
Latin taurum,Albanian tar




Betacism in Oscan and Romanian


Oscan vocabulary


bivus (nom.pl.) – vivus – alive [IE *gwei- ‘to live’]
cúmbened – convenit – he came together


Romanian


Latin vervex,Romanian berbec,ram
L veteranus,R batran
L alveus,R albie



Latin e>>>>>>Oscan,S Italian,Moldavian,Aromanian i




"OSCAN. 1. Before another vowel, e becomes an open i and is invariably denoted by an i-cliaracter (i in the native
alphabet, earlier i"(A Grammar of Oscan and Umbrian)


"Among the commonest variations
are the following :
1. Variation between e and i. In the great majority of instances this occurs where the sound lies
between e and i, or, more correctly, between the extremes of an open e and a close i ;
that is, it is either the open i from original short i (45), or the, close e from original e 
(42) or from oi in final syllables
(67, 2). The spelling e is relatively more frequent in the native than in the Latin alphabet. 
The use of e for closed I from original I, or, vice versa, of i for the open e from original short e,
or for open e from original ai or ei, is rare. The variation between e and i corresponds then in general
to the Oscan use of f"

----------


## Alexandru www

[QUOTE=Alexandru www;509428]
Schwa,the most important vowel in Romanian and S Italian








"Graficamente, in italiano (o in latino) non c’è un segno per questa importantissima sesta vocale, 
più usata di ogni altra, nel nostro dialetto: lo schwa. Il nome deriva dall’alfabeto ebraico ed 
indica un suono (non una vocale vera e propria) indefinito tra la /a/ e la /e/, o addirittura una
sorta di piccolo stop tra le sillabe. Si scrive, di solito, così ‘ ə ‘, oppure anche con la più comune ‘ë’,
come in albanese ed in arbëreshë (la lingua di Greci, il paesino di mia madre). 
Nessun altro dialetto italico ne fa un uso così massiccio, come il napoletano. 
Man mano che ci si sposta verso est, in Irpinia lo schwa può trasformarsi in ‘ i ‘ o ‘e’ 
(se interconsonantico) ovvero in ‘o’ ed ‘a’ (dipende dal genere) se a fine parola. 
Infatti, di pàtətə abbiamo anche le versioni ‘pàtito’ e ‘pàrito’, di ‘màmmətə’, 
abbiamo ‘màmmita’ o ‘màmmeta’. Gli esempi sono innumerevoli. 
Prendete il celeberrimo verso del poeta-condomino del Professor Bellavista.
“ ‘A libbərtà… purə ‘o pappəvəllə, l’addə pruvà!”
Ci sono più schwa che ‘a’.


La linguistica è una materia stupenda. Un orecchio attento, sa riconoscere le varianze
dialettali della nostra terra attraverso il fluttuare dello schwa nelle parole.
Come si può immediatamente intuire, non solo non è una vocale dal suono definito,
ma non può assolutamente stare da sola: ha necessariamente bisogno di una consonante 
che la protegga, che ne agevoli la sopravvivenza. Lo schwa sembra un cucciolo, 
una mascotte e un jolly. Amo, dunque, lo schwa."(Schwa ,mon amour)






MCK>


"Where does the Romanian "ă"(schwa) come f"


"Just curious. It certainly did not come from Latin since there are no other romance languages
that have this vowel(as far as I know).So it's either inherited from the thracians,or borrowed
from Slavic.What do you think? And how does it sound to you? Strange,...ugly,interesting?"

EDIT

"The most striking phonological difference is the Neapolitan weakening
of unstressed vowels into schwa (schwa is pronounced like the a in about or the u in upon)."(Neapolitan language)


Latin a,e>>>>>>Romanian schwa

----------


## Alexandru www

[QUOTE=Alexandru www;509429]


The extensive use of Latin familia in Romanian,Aromanian and Albanian


Old Romanian famEAie,Aromanian fumEAlji,from a Latin root famEl**,Albanian familje(family) and femije(child),
literary Romanian femeie,Romanian dialectal fomeie,fumeie,femie,fimeie.
In Old Romanian it meant family too,now it only means woman,while the Aromanian senses are familiy and child.




"FAMI´LIA in Old Latin famelia, in Oscan famelo, in Umbrian famedia, is probably in its original
sense a body of persons belonging to a house, a household (Osc. faa-ma =house, Sanskr. dhâ = to settle,
dhâman = settlement). The etymology of Festus (s. v. famuli), deriving familia from the Oscan famel,
meaning “a slave,” is now commonly rejected;"






"Original meaning — ‘house full of slaves’
In Latin, familia began as a collective noun meaning ‘all the slaves belonging to one master’ based on a common Latin
word for slave-servant, famulus.
The Romans appear to have borrowed the word from their Italian neighbours, one race of whom were the Osci. By 350
BCE Rome had conquered the Osci. The Oscan word for ‘slaves of the household’ was famelo, while Oscan for household
slave was famel.
A little later in Latin, familia came to mean all the people over whom the paterfamilias (Latin ‘head of the household’)
held sway. That included his wife, his sons and his daughters. So even in Latin familia sometimes meant ‘members of
one’s immediate family,’ and sometimes the extended circle of one’s blood relatives out to second and third cousins"
("Thoughts on the Latin word familia ")



Latin nd>>>>>>>Oscan,S.Italian,Romanian nn,n


Oscan-Latin


úpsannam – operandam – working


Napoletano granne,Italian grande


Latin brandeum,Aromanian brîn, bărnu,Romanian brau,plural brane,traditional belt


Latin manduco,manducare,Italian manducare,Romanian manca,mancare(c=k),Aromanian mî(n)c, măc(u), mîncată, mîcare,
Megleno-Romanian m(ăn)ǫnc, măncari,Istro-Romanian mărăncu,other Romance versions,with dj/g,for Latin d.


Latin nd,preserved in other Romanian words,L intendere,R intinde,intindere


Oscan tEfúrúm – sacrificium – a victim,Romanian tEAfar(=unharmed,the diphtong ea comes in Romanian,many times, from Latin e,other times,
it comes from Latin ea,R. geaman,L geminus,R geamat,L gemitus,R geana,L genae)

----------


## Alexandru www

Italian bocca,Neapolitan mmocca,Romanian moaca(face)
Latin porta,Romanian poarta


Neapolitan moccafava,Romanian mocofan,uomo credulone,
related to Romanian gura-casca(literally,yawning mouth),
gura-sparta (literally, broken mouth).






<Addurmirse cu ‘a zizza ‘mmocca
Ad litteram: Addormentarsi con la tetta in bocca >


Italian tetta,Neapolitan zizza,Romanian țîță(read tsîtsă)




< Barba, capille e ppalluccella ‘mmocca specialmente nell’espressione serví ‘e barba etc.
Ad litteram: barba, capelli e pallina in bocca specialmente >










Neapolitan banne,Romanian ban,money,coin,from Latin banda,bandum,I say




"e BANNË - s. m., pl. “i soldi, il danaro”; `o jammë è bbàchënë ncoppë e bbanë:
“il tizio non paga”; ‘e bbane: “il danaro”; bano: nu bbano: “un soldo”.
a BBANÈSIA – s. f. “il danaro”; `o jammë ra bbanèsia: “il tizio del danaro”.
nu BBANO- v. BANË."(l'antica parlesia napoletana...)


EDIT

"The bandon (Greek: βάνδον) was the basic military and territorial administrative unit of the middle Byzantine EmpireIts name, like the Latin bandus and bandum ("ensign, banner"), had a Germanic origin,compare Gothic bandwa sign".




"During the course of the 5th century, the Roman minting system collapsed.
The western half of the Roman Empire was overrun by Germanic tribes,
although some mints remained active in the West under the new barbarian rulers
and continued to mint coins, including high-quality gold solidi, in the name
of the eastern emperors, most notably in Ostrogothic Italy and Burgundy"(Byzantine mints)".




"With the death of Attila the Hun (450 CE) the Ostrogoths declared their independence. 
In 474 CE, Theodoric (known as Theodoric the Great) became king of the Ostrogoths and,
backed by the Byzantine Empire, led a campaign into Italy. The Byzantine Empire (formerly
the Eastern Roman Empire) hoped for a return of the glory of Rome and Theodoric, it was thought
, could accomplish this by re-claiming the kingdom from the Germanic King of Italy, Odoacer,
who had taken it from the last Roman emperor. Theodoric defeated Odoacer, pretended to offer
terms of peace, and then killed him, establishing, in 493 CE, the Ostrogothic Empire which
stretched from Sicily, through Italy, to France and parts of modern-day Spain. 
Under Theodoric, the empire flourished and Roman art, literature, and culture were embraced.
Although his campaign had been funded by the Byzantines, Theodoric ruled his empire independently
and maintained friendly relations with the empire to the east.
His daughter, and successor, Amalasvintha, ruled first as regent, in 526 CE and in 534 CE became
queen at the death of her son Athalaric. She was assassinated by her cousin Theodahad, who claimed 
to be the rightful heir to the throne."
Her death sparked the wrath of Justinian I, Emperor of the Byzantine Empire, who claimed Theodahad a usurper.
He sent the famous general Flavius Belisarius on campaign to Italy to bring the region back into line with the empire"(Ostrogoth)



EDIT

*Latin bandum had several meanings,IMO, the closest to the one of "money-coin" is that of "ensign".As mercenaries,those Germanic tribes knew under which banner they fought by the face of the Roman emperor from the coin,while in the scarcity of those periods even the native Roman soldiers were paid in products,mostly grains/food.*
*Later,they were involved in large-scale minting,making of a big part of the whole process a "Germanic problem".*





" Medieval Latin bandum, bannum (“order, decree, ban”) "
" Latin bandum, “a band or flag"
"bandum (bandon, Latin bandum). Originally a battle standard, later a troop of 200 men fighting under such a..."

QUITE A BIG EDIT

Linguistic evidence for the movement of the Latin-speaking lowlanders into the highlands
-the lowlanders have adapted to a Romanian/Latin phonology the Paleo-Balkanic terms,except for mal,which in Romanian means "shore,bank",while in Albanian,mountain.
Latin L is preserved in Albanian,but it switches to R in South italian and Romanian,the so-called substratum follows this trend.
Substratum words
Albanian modhull,Romanian mazare
Albanian brushtull,Romanian brusture
Albanian mugull,Romanian mugur
Albanian thumbull,Romanian sambure


Latin words


Latin masculus,Albanian mashkull(man,male),Romanian mascur(pig,hog,boar)
Latin angelus,Albanian engjell,Romanian inger
Latin mola ,Albanian mulli,Romanian moara
"In Latin loanwords, intervocalic
I appears as Alb II (popull, ulli, menjolle). Otherwise it gives I
(larg, leti, plage). Geminated Lat II is reflected as I (pule, gjel, bule)."(Orel,Albanian Etymological Dictionary)
L>>>>R shifts in Romanian and Southern Italian
Calabrese sordi,Italian soldi
Calabrese purviri,Italian polvere
Calabrese pruppa,Italian polpa
Calabrese furminari,Italian fulminare
Calabrese curtejju,Italian coltello
Puglian acierre,Italian uccello
Napoletano barcunata,Italian balcone
Napoletano purpo,italian polipo
Napoletano sardo,Italian saldo
Latin felicitas,Romanian fericire
etc.


Romanian cutreiera( to wander,to scour) comes from Latin contribulare,con plus tribulare,
is the semantic shift that provide enough evidence for the movements into higher places ,treiera,from L. tribulare, means "to thersh".IMO,the expression "a cutreiera in lung si-n lat"
("to wander in long and wide") proves that the Proto-Romanians knew the initial sense of contribulare.




<In the process of Romanization, the sense of a number of Latin words not pertaining to the life of shepherds was changed by the ancestors of the Rumanians to denote shepherding terms, obviously an indication of the main occupation of this people:


meridies ,midday, middle day ,meriză,the place where the cattle rest at midday 
animalia ,animals,nămaie,small cattle 
coccineus ,scarlet red,coasin ,(dialectal):sheep with reddish spots on its head 
turma ,unit of the Roman cavalry; 30 men; (fig.): group ,turmă,flock 
*stimular(ia) (stimulus) ,pointed stake (used in battles) ,strămurare,goad 
minor ,to rise, to menace,mâna,to drive, urge on; to carry, push, goad 
Remarks: turmă is an example of a word with a special sense (military) being used in a different special sense (shepherd). Latin stimulus had a similar, but broader sense: pointed stake used in battle; and driving stake, with an iron point, used to drive oxen; as well as figuratively stimulus, irritation.
Another Latin word, mixticius mixed, crossed, hybrid may be added, probably => N. Rum. mistreţ wild boar, (Sus scrofa); in French, Provençal, Spanish, and Portuguese with the original Latin sense (see Rosetti, A., Cazacu, B., & Coteanu, I. (red.), Istoria limbii române. [The History of the Rumanian Language], Vol. II, Edit. Acad. RSR, Bucharest, 1969 (Vol. I, 1965)., p. 150). Although this is not a specific shepherd term, it belongs to the life of shepherds. 
(Eastern Romance)


Compared with the results,all the source-terms are rather theoretical,pointing to the typical Latin abstractions.



The continuation of that edit is even bigger.


"Insecure times called for construction of fortifications. Some of
these fortified sites were regional centres with military crews and a still
functioning ecclesiastical organization. Besides these, the imperial
authorities strived to build smaller fortifications on important strategic
points along the roads, so as to defend and oversee the communication and
supply systems. These fortified sites also served as refuge centres that
provided safe haven to the populations fleeing the endangered lowland
settlements. Parallel to the construction of these fortifications, smaller
ones were built by rural communities, to provide them with safer
positions. Although their positions changed by moving into locations on
higher altitudes, they carried on with their economic activities on earlier
agricultural fields with a shift towards pastoralism.These measures created a new defensive system, born out of necessity and reflecting how weak the Empire had become. The aim was to reduce the influx of refugees that sought shelters in the south, since the refuges were built in every part of the Empire; but also put to a heavy test the barbarians’ ability to lay siege and to maintain their supply chain"(The World of the Slavs)


"There is in fact enough Latin agricultural vocabulary in Romanian -words for sowing, ploughing, harrowing, and so on - to show that they were farming in Roman times. [69] The shift towards pastoralism was probably quite gradual. One particular factor that may have helped to promote it was the practice of horse-breeding, which was, or at least became, a Vlach speciality: the medieval records are full of Vlach muleteers and Vlachs leading caravans of pack-horses"(Noel Malcom)


"One of the significant elements of the economic life
of an ancient society were market days/village fairs
(nundinae), which had a significant role in supplying
both the urban and rural population.41 In urban areas,
periodical market days were held where the townspeople
could buy produce. The residents of nearby villages
sold their goods there and thus obtained much needed
money for rent or taxes, as well as for buying required
goods or services.42 The Theodosian Codex points to the
importance of selling produce by stating that peasants
were freed from paying lustral tax if they sold produce
from their own farms.43 Products bought for farming
were exempt from the same taxes.44 These regulations
clearly demonstrate the importance of sustaining agricultural
production on both, large and small estates.
The decrees of Emperor Justinian I also stated this view.
In Novella XXXII, addressed to Dominicius, the praetorian
prefect of Illyricum, a series of decrees were
passed to guard against the greed of creditors who took
pawned land from peasants who were unable to repay,
due to poor harvests, the loan of crop seeds.45 In certain
areas itinerant traders also had a significant role.
At Caricin Grad, a large number of artisans, such
as potters, blacksmiths, goldsmiths, glaziers and others
were testified to, clearly indicating that it was a regional
centre which supplied both the local area and those
further afield. The very concept of a newly built centre
with wide streets and porticos points to the fact that the
city was planned as an administrative and trade centre.
(Fig.3) An indication of the lively local and regional
trade is the presence of camels and mules at Caricin
Grad,48 which were particularly used in the 6th century
for transporting goods."
"The 8-day nundinal cycle also seems to have been observed elsewhere in Italy, particularly Campania, as attested in stone calendars and graffiti, as at Pompeii.[85] There are records from the imperial period of towns and villas petitioning for the right to hold such markets (ius nundinarum).[86] Such a right seems to have been universally granted to the capitals of Italy's prefectures (praefecturae) but also extended to some smaller localities where markets were necessary for local trade.[87] These local fairs used the same calendrical system as Rome's, marking out the days of the year into cycles from A to H, but each town or village in an area typically used a separate day, permitting itinerant traders (circumforanei) to attend each in turn."(Nundinae)
"According to Frayn, we may speak of a
« central place » wherever a large town functions as a market centre for a
number of smaller settlements (both smaller towns and villages) in a
surrounding plain. Thus Capua was the « central place » of North Campania
because it was a market centre for the rural population of the area (Cic, Leg.
Agr. 2.88-89), while Noia performed a similar function for the population of the
South Campanian plain."(Markets and Fairs in Roman Italy)


"La straordinaria fertilità della Campania antica, famosa soprattutto per il grano
e il vino, consentiva di sostenere un’articolata rete di città, che trovavano nell’enorme
mercato di Roma lo sbocco principale per le loro eccedenze produttive,
alimentando intense relazioni commerciali, episodicamente attestate dai ritrovamenti
archeologici, ma ricostruibili nei loro meccanismi fondamentali grazie
alla documentazione epigrafica (indices nundinarii) relativa alle nundinae,
mercati periodici di ciclo breve, che si tenevano ogni 7 o 8 giorni in alcune delle
città più importanti della Regio "(TRA LAZIO E CAMPANIA: REGIO I AUGUSTEAE PROBLEMATICHE ODIERNE DI RIPARTIZIONE TERRITORIALE)




"The economic activities of some castella were connected
to agriculture, which particularly applies to those
fortifications situated along the plains and valleys.
This is indicated by the names of castella in some areas
which, according to M. Mirkovi}, bear the names of
former landowners: Tim/ana – Timiana, OÙrbr/ana –
Urbriana, Kassia – Cassia








In the region of the Leskovac basin there were also
villages in the river valleys, evident by the rare finds of
Early Byzantine coins in Re~ica, Turjane, Rafuna
(Crkvena Livada site), Lipovica, Ora{ac (Padina site)
and Rujkovac (Vaskina Porta). These are coin finds
which can be dated to the period of the reigns of Justin
I and Justinian I. What is particularly indicative are the
finds of a solidus of Justin I in Re~ica and a tremissis
of Justinian I in Turjane.32 The cessation of coin circu-
lation in the second half of the 6th century in lowland
parts of the basin points to the fact that the population,
by and large, abandoned the valleys and retreated to
hilltop fortifications. This corresponds with the intensified
building of structures within the empty areas of
the city and porticos at Caricin Grad."
"Towards the end of the 4th century, as a result of
the barbarian invasions and their subsequent settling of
the region of northern Illyricum, significant socio-economic
turmoil started to occur, which was particularly
reflected in the changing roles of the settlements. Roman
lowland settlements gave way to new fortified settlements
on the dominant and well-guarded higher grounds
above the river valleys or in the mountainous regions."
"The anthropogeographic features of the area, the
economic resources in particular, played a significant
role in the settlement of the Leskovac basin. Most of
all, the river valleys stand out, the South Morava in particular,
as well as the Veternica, Jablanica, Pusta Reka
and Toplica, as being suitable for agricultural production
and wheat cultivation. It is worth remembering that
annona represented the foundation of the economy for
urban and rural populations.7 On the other hand, the
foot hills on the margins of the Leskovac basin were
suited to cattle breeding. Viticulture was also present as
one of the most important cultures of that time, judging
by the finds of stone winepresses from Vrbovac,8 in
the vicinity of Caricin Grad and grape seeds at Caricin
Grad. It is quite certain that in this area, as indicated by
the numerous remains of different kinds of grain and
fruit at Cari~in Grad, other agricultural produce was also
grown."(Late Roman Fortifications in the Leskovac Basin
in Relation to Urban Centers)

----------


## Alexandru www

Diphtongs,mostly

Italian e,South Italian ie,Latin e,Romanian ie


Lucanian pariende,Italian parente
Lucanian tiempe,Italian tempo
Puglian fierru,Italian ferro,Romanian fier
Puglian cientu,Italian cento
Lucanian cerviedd,Italian cervello
Calabrian nsiettu,Italian insetto
Calabrian giergu,italian gergo
Calabrian tiella,Italian teglia
Naploletan miereco,Italian medico
Napoletan miezzo,Italian mezzo,Romanian miez
Napoletan auciello,Italian uccello
Latin perire,Romanian pieri
Latin pectus,Romanian piept
Latin felem,Romanian fiere

EA

Napoletan currea,Romanian curea,Latin corrigia,belt

From Treppecore and Pulcinella
Abruzzese plaje,nudi pianori montani,Romanian plai,plateau.related to playa and so on
A. *n*emale,I animale,R namaie(cattle)
A carria, I trasportare,R cara,Latin carrare,from carrus,R carare=path,car-cart
A avemo,R avem,I abbiamo,we have
A *am*mistricari(to mix),R mistret(boar)


EDIT


*The maritime route Brindisium-Dyrrachium was well-known,used ,for instance, by the Via Egnatia.Wikipedia\s Roman Roads map gives two main ways to Brindisium,from Rome,through Campania,and along the eastern coast,from,let's say,Abruzzo,while from Dyrrachium you could have gone either Constantinople,through Via Egnatia,or Lissus-Naissus-Danube.*










"Pescara's first indicators of settlement date to 1500 BCE, but it is unknown which tribe first settled in the city.[2] It was conquered by the Romans in 214 BCE and remained "Aternum" after the city allied itself with Punic Carthaginian military commander Hannibal. The Romans developed the city and it became an important location for shipping and trade occurring between the Balkans and Rome; the Romans made the city of Pescara the capital of the Valeria region"(Province of Pescara)


"The importance of Pescara in the territory in which it is located, is measured in the strategic role that thecity has taken in economic and social relations with the neighboring territories. In particular: the relationship with the other cities of Abruzzo region, the relationship with Rome, the role in the Adriatic director, and the relationship with the Balkan side of the Adriatic."(Pescara partner profile)
"Aternum was a Roman town, on the site of Pescara, in Italy. Some historians refer to Aternum with the name of Ostia Aterni: in fact, the town was built at the mouth of the river Aternus. Aternum had an important role in Italian transport and it was connected to Rome through the Via Tiburtina, and its extension the Via Valeria. The city was an important port for trade with the Eastern provinces of the Empire; the seaport was supposedly also used for military purposes"



EDIT
Those ancient Abruzzese merchants didn\t stop at the Albanian shore,because a large part of the Roman army was expecting them at the Danube frontier.
Maybe these people were involved in certain seamantic shifts that took place in Romanian,
murg(red/dark-brown horse) and amurg*(dusk,twilight),from Latin amurca,I would say.

*am*urca f (genitive amurcae); first declension
The watery part that flows out in pressing olives
The lees or dregs of oil
Aragonese: morca
English: amurca
Italian: morchia
Portuguese: amurca
Spanish: amurca, morga, murga
"wo and a half million olive trees, more than a thousand farms, two thousands years of experience in the production of high quality olive oil: this is Sabina.
Our olive groves stretch over more than one thousand square kilometres of hilly countryside, from the heart of Central Italy to Rome, across oak forests, historical abbeys and medieval villages.
The vocation of Sabina for olive oil production is rooted not only in ancient traditions, but also in solid paedoclimatic conditions: clay and limestone soil, prevalence of southern exposure, altitudes ranging from 200 to 500 metres above sea level, a temperate Mediterranean climate, characterised by the absence of temperature peaks and drought limited to the summer period.
In this ideal habitat, the hands of man have selected a wide range of olive varieties, a valuable resource of biodiversity, that the product specification of Sabina PDO identifies as a key feature in the characterization of our olive oil."(Olio Extra Vergine Di Oliva.Sabina Dop)






"Museum of Olive Oil in Abruzzo – how is extra virgin olive oil made?
The “Museo dell’Olio” (Museum of Olive Oil) in Bucchianico (Chieti), which I visited recently, it is quite a unique and interesting place whether you are new to Abruzzo, a local or a seasoned Abruzzo lover.
I absolutely loved it, and not just because it was created and it is run by my dear friends at natural farm and winery Cantinarte. I genuinely think it’s a great place to visit, for tourists and locals alike, and why not, with classrooms and in study trips. Discovering the traditional, artisanal way of making olive oil will not just give you theoretical knowledge (and extra conversation points at dinner parties) but will also help you when it comes to buy olive oil for your consumption."


"The aim of the Olive Oil Museum is is to celebrate one of our region’s food treasures – Abruzzo olive oil – and to preserve the memory of traditional oil making tecniques. In fact, the Museum holds a precious relic of the bygone era when olive oil was made entirely by hand and without any electrical power involved: a giant wooden press from the XVIII sentury, used to extract the oil from the olive paste."

----------


## Alexandru www

*However,the exclusive Romanian-Albanian shifts that took place within Latin originated along the Danube.The following change ,Latin paludem(swamp),Romanian padure/Albanian pyll(forest), occurred in this area,probably along the Sirmium-Singidunum-Viminacium line.*








"Matasović lists some developments in Albanian that are readily familiar to Romanian speakers. Lexically there is, for example, the borrowing of Latin paludem ‘swamp’ with metathesis and shift to the meaning ‘forest’: Albanian pyll < *padule, Romanian pădure.
Should the Proto-Albanian Urheimat be located in Vojvodina or Slavonia instead, with southern Serbia as only a later point of Albanian expansion?"(Romanian-Albanian parallels and the location of the Proto-Albanian Urheimat)


"A reference to their early history lies in the poetic inscription of a grave in Lãžen (see above), part of which reads: Ipso immargebam caro florente marito in quartum decimumque annum ... 'I died at the age of 14, in the flowering of my precious manhood'. The meaning of the Latin mergo is "I sink," while in-mergo could be translated as "I dip, I dive". Yet, C. Daicoviciu is right in translating the text as "Mergeam în (pe) anul al 14-lea"*, i.e., "I departed at the age of 14." In this case we can pinpoint the locale of the change from
Lat. mergo "I sink > Dr. merge "goes, departs", Alb. mërgonj "I remove". The finding was made along the river Asamus, today Osãm, Southwest of Novae (Svištov) in Moesia Inferior. The process which led to the formation of the Rumanian language may have begun here. Indications of this process may be seen not only in the change of meaning in mergo; *in immargebam the a in place of e may be an error but, more likely, it points to a very early a > ã*** alteration (Alb. mërgonj). "(Gabor Vekony)


** Actually, the expression can also be typically translated "I was going on/towards my 14th year",*
*"a merge pe"="to go on(on=towards)(a year/age)*
***in Romanian,a,e,i,o from Latin shifts to ã,some dialects have a form mãrg.*
*L capistrum,R cãpãstru,Lcontra ,R cãtrã*
"Similarly to the Greek belief, the Romans would leave coins on the tombstones of their soldiers who died in combat.
According to an ancient Greek myth, souls of the deceased needed to pay Charon the ferryman a toll to cross over the underworld river Styx and then enter the afterlife. For that to happen, they would put coins in the mouths of the deceased.
"(The Origins Of Leaving Coins on Soldiers' Tombstones)






*With that many people sinking in the Danube marshes,the Romans from these parts have realized that in Rome and Constantinople people party alot ,on their efforts,it appears that many of the soldiers were connected somehow to South Italy,so they became extremely jealous.*
*The local chiefs/commanders have understood that a big part of the Roman army was sitting next to them,the following step being autonomy-they didn't want to be Romans anymore,this term was suited for the peoples who spend alot of money on their backs,but "Dacians",Regalian was "Decebal's nephew",Galerius wanted to switch the name of the Empire into Dacian(=My Empire or The Empire of Where I Come From),leading Rome using thier own style,just like Sirmium's Valentinian,there were many emperors from those areas.*




"Regalianus (260) was a Dacian, falsely pretended to be a descendant of Decebal"
"According to Lactantius, Galerius affirmed his Dacian identity and avowed himself the enemy of the Roman name once made emperor, even proposing that the empire should be called, not the Roman, but the Dacian Empire, much to the horror of the patricians and senators. He exhibited anti-Roman attitude as soon as he had attained the highest power, treating the Roman citizens with ruthless cruelty, like the conquerors treated the conquered, all in the name of the same treatment that the victorious Trajan had applied to the conquered Dacians, forefathers of Galerius, two centuries before."

----------


## Userius

It's doubted that they are only one people. It's also extremely doubtful that they all sprang up from a small region of Albania, northern Greece, and FYROM. The total amounts of Vlach population is at least equal to all 3 of those countries put together. 

It's likely that it does constitute a mix of Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, and (official) Macedonians who were Romanized and likely were similar in appearance and culture from long before then. 

Most Vlachs do have those haplogroups but when it goes to the northernmost points in Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine that descend from Transylvanian Vlachs, haplogroup R1a, I2a, and E-V13 are very dominant, but the J2 from other Vlach groups is more rare.

----------


## Litovoi

> Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a 
> populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
> where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
> distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin. 
> ...


The first map represents the Proto-Wallachians,starting with Gustav Weigand ,the linguists have recognized their speech until,at least ,the Mures river,while the Transylvanians,who had initially dwelled in the northern parts,according to scholars,can be connected with second and third ones.

----------


## Litovoi

Genetics offers not much of a help here,it was well -known that Early Wallachia had lands in Transylvania,like Tara Oltului,Amlas,Hateg and Severin-Banat,with the Mitropolia a Toata Ungro-Vlahia,which is the Bishopric of All Wallachia,extending into many parts of Ardeal.In The Wallachian speech we do have additionally Latin features like,for instance, the term ginere ,a husband,from generis,opposed to Northern Romanian mire, which is related to Albanian,the preterite ,preserved in the Wallachian core,and sounds that remained unchanged.If we take a look to our neighbors,south of the Danube,we understand why all these things took place.

----------


## Litovoi

Since brigandage is very disscused these days,why don't we see in the Romanian-Vlach communities the so spreaded clan version,as in S. Italians,Albanians,Greeks,Slavs or Caucasians? I mean,we oftenly spoke of their personal conflicts and revenges,many times within the same family,community,even when they are acting as a "group", they are doing it spontaneously,only for their leader,plenty of records from the Dalmatian coast,Bulgarian Empire,Byzantine Empire,and their own folk epics,in this respect. Extreme scarcity in a very concurential environment,as a background,possibly backuped by some cultural triggers,similarly to Ver Sacrum,for instance. 

Edit
The most likely reason for this change is the early Slavic pressure.

----------


## Litovoi

During that Early Middle Ages,the Vlachs and Bulgarians,although very distinct,they all choosed to follow only the Kaloyan's lion.

----------


## Litovoi

Let's just say that,as a Western Wallachian-based,you realize very quickly that Romanian wasn't a language spoken on narrow spaces.
It structurally shares the vowel system with certain dialects from Basilicata, the Picerno-Potenza-Castelmezzano area,these are conservative traits,in remote mountainous regions,which led to the conclusion that the entire South Italy went through a "Romanian" phase,since we are literally talking about a section of/near the Appian Way,Giuliano Bonfante spreads it through out whole Italy.
The road was particularly used by the Roman army to reach the Danube ,via Dyrrachium-Lissus,Ulpiana and Naissus,through the Drin and Morava valleys.

----------


## Litovoi

Romanian and Albanian zana,a fairy,comes 100% from the Latin Diana,because the first also has zanatic,a lunatic,which is inherited from dianaticus,ultimately from The Goddess of the Moon(not Selene-Luna),the moon,just like its meaning
EDIT
Despite of her connection with the moon,Diana was a very lively girl,as the "virgin goddess of childbirth and women".
Further evidence that she was not melancholical,comes from the fact that "she swore never to marry", we definitely have the case when she plays the impossible one,stregthen by the fact that she loved independence,by being in the middle of the nature,hunting,living near wild animals.
What was the antidote?Her favourite,to become dianaticus.

----------


## Litovoi

https://books.google.ro/books?id=m2p...aticus&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

About the important role of the woman in the Vlach society clearly speaks this Romanian semantic change,femeie comes from Latin familia,which is the traditional view as household keepers.
Since the Romanians-Vlachs had a primarily pastoral and military character,women got more and more initiative back home,we do have,for instance, the legend of the Moldavian Vrancioaia,that leads her sons to gather an army for Steven the Great,which changes the faith of a battle against the Turks,women hajduks and heroesses are well known across Wallachia and Moldavia.
Nevertheless,the gender differences are well defined,these women were very feminine and,as the semantic change proves,proned to raise natality.
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl28_3.htm


http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-...n-women-002032


https://dc.edu.au/ancient-history-pompeii-herculaneum/

----------


## Litovoi

We find similar terms to Romanian insura,to marry a woman,throughout the whole Southern Italy:
https://books.google.ro/books?id=sZU...nzurar&f=false
Another interesting thing in Pompeii is the occurrence of the word lucrum,profit,which in Romanian(lucru) switched its meaning,"to work".
It testifies both the strong links between the Balkans and Southern Italy, DURING THE ROMAN ERA,and the importance of the commercial activities in the Romanian society.
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Lat..._Graffiti.html
https://sites.google.com/site/ad79er...use-of-siricus

----------


## mihaitzateo

The origin of Vlachs from outside Romania can be actually Romania.
Roman Empire occupied a part of Dacia and in about 271 AD retired.
A part of the people from this province retired also,South of Danube.
Most Romanians which are bearing I2-din are bearing the North Variant of I2-din, I2-din North, which is similar to I2-din from Ukrainians,Poles,Russians etc.
Yugos are bearing I2-din South variant.
So, some genetic testing of Aromouns/Vlachs which came from South of Danube can show if they migrated from Romania south of Danube and returned back after, or if they originate in Balkanic peninsula.
http://i2aproject.blogspot.ro/2016/0...or-str_22.html

Romanians have 4-5% I1, 1-2% I2b1,R1A 18% which are not found in Aromouns/Vlachs.
But these paternal lines very likely came with Slavs and East Germanics,so, there is a possibility that Aromouns came from Romania South of Danube in about 271 AD.

----------


## Litovoi

Some of the last links can appear as disrespectful towards the Greek people.
It can't be the case, since Greeks were people, with alot of important background,they were brave,intelligent,etc.,many,probably more than 300.
In the 6th c.AD,they thought they have a chance in the Latin parts of Illyricum,but the prefect of Constantinople ,Ioannes,complained that "the inhabitants of the Balkan provinces spoke Romanian and did not understand Greek".
http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/dunay/dunay02.htm
Justinian's uncle,Justin I, was a Latin speaker,he barley understood few Greek words.
In Illyricum we have the center called Justiniana Prima,for the Latin speakers,and Thessaloniki,for Greek people.

----------


## Litovoi

https://books.google.ro/books?id=sE-...manian&f=false
https://books.google.ro/books?id=L3p...manian&f=false

EDIT

A very good study of our friend,Mr. Keith Massey:

http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

----------


## Litovoi

Let's discuss a bit about some interesting placenames from the Procopius' list that are labelled Italian or Italic,like,for instance,Braeola,which is recorded twice in the Aquae-Timachum area.
We have Monte Braiola in Central Italy,but what makes things even more interesting is the existence of a surrounding area called Padule di Braiola.
The geography of those regions is consistently formed by some swamp-forests who strikingly resemble the landscape along the Lower Danube,while the places are called the same ,padule.
This term is directly related to Romanian padure(the rhotacized form of padule),who, not only that changes,thorough metathesis,but also receives a new meaning,after all,Latin paludem meant swamp;so we have this clear connection between swamps and forests,people didn't recognized the patterns anymore,they didn't know how to call them.
In the Danube frontier,the forest-swamps were very used by the soldiers in ambushing,defending or regrouping,since in the swamps-swamps was not that much of a activity,with no Rambo around,which definitely explains the whole situation.
These two Braeola are grouped with Septecasae,Seven Houses,surely a Romanian term,Wallachian dialectal septe,7,and Florentiana,a placename that still survives(along with others, like Augusta-Ogosta,Almus-Lom,Timachus-Timok ,Archar-Ratiaria,Alexandru Madgearu says),it is the Bulgarian village Florentin.
These Italian-Romanian connections are indeed close,but what about the geography,can we still involve the Adriatic here?

https://books.google.ro/books?id=3J9...raiola&f=false

https://montiliguri.weebly.com/monte-braiola.html

https://www.christopherculver.com/la...-urheimat.html

http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/63...a_fortress.htm

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html

----------


## Zanatis

It's crazy how much Albanians and Romanians have in common and it's obvious that the 2 peoples lived in such close proximity but later got more and more apart as both lost territories and part of their people to Slavic assimilation.

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/padule


https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padule

https://www.wwf.it/oasi/toscana/padule_di_bolgheri/

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padule_di_Fucecchio



https://hiveminer.com/Tags/serbia,swamp

----------


## Bachus

> It's crazy how much Albanians and Romanians have in common and it's obvious that the 2 peoples lived in such close proximity but later got more and more apart as both lost territories and part of their people to Slavic assimilation.


Latin speaking ancestors of Romanians came to modern Romania from Bulgaria and southern Balkans in period from 12th to 14th century.
Before 12th century there was no Latin speaking people in territory of modern Romania, in present day Romania in middle age majoriry of populations were Slavs, but also Hungarians, Avars Saxons, Cumans, Tatars and Pechenegs were present.

Latin speakers who came to Wallachian plain from areas south of Danube in 12-14th century were assimilated local Slavs, and from that mix was created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
Modern Romanians have around 45% Slavic Y DNA (I2a 27%, R1a 18%), real Vlach haplogroups are eastern R1b, J2b and E-V13.
The purest Vlachs are Vlachs from southern Balkans (Aromanians), they have much less Slavic influence than Romanians which has heavy Slavic influence.

Romanian language until mid of 19th century was more Slavic than Latin, even today there is around 20% Slavic words in Romanian language.

There is a hundreds of Slavic toponyms in Romania today, and in the past even more.

----------


## Litovoi

A minor car crash from Western Wallachia:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=17s&v=99qkL0kH9kc

----------


## Litovoi

Have you seen the man with the white shirt,this is how we walk.
We are talking here about native, advanced,leadership and management,many times performed in very difficult,fast, situations.
My ancestors stood firm along the Danube frontier,while Rome and Constantinople had a very different type of planning.

----------


## Litovoi

Romanian gaura,a hole,from Latin cavola,can be connected to Mons Gaurus,Monte Gauro,a volcanic mountain with caldera.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monte_Gauro_-_la_caldera_occupata_dal_"Carney_Park"_-_Pozzuoli_(NA)_-_2000.jpg



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Gaurus


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Barbaro

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fiore_barbato/8509182217

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Latin speaking ancestors of Romanians came to modern Romania from Bulgaria and southern Balkans in period from 12th to 14th century.
> Before 12th century there was no Latin speaking people in territory of modern Romania, in present day Romania in middle age majoriry of populations were Slavs, but also Hungarians, Avars Saxons, Cumans, Tatars and Pechenegs were present.
> 
> Latin speakers who came to Wallachian plain from areas south of Danube in 12-14th century were assimilated local Slavs, and from that mix was created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
> Modern Romanians have around 45% Slavic Y DNA (I2a 27%, R1a 18%), real Vlach haplogroups are eastern R1b, J2b and E-V13.
> The purest Vlachs are Vlachs from southern Balkans (Aromanians), they have much less Slavic influence than Romanians which has heavy Slavic influence.
> 
> Romanian language until mid of 19th century was more Slavic than Latin, even today there is around 20% Slavic words in Romanian language.
> 
> There is a hundreds of Slavic toponyms in Romania today, and in the past even more.


Romanians actually have 40% I2-din on average.
And 18% R1A on average.
But that does not means that we are Slavs.
It means that people from Balkans were assimilated by Slavs.
To whom ex-Yugos and Bulgarians are clustering on autosomal testing,with Ukrainians,Russians,Poles,Czechs,Slovaks?
No, they cluster very near or over Romanians.

----------


## Bachus

> Romanians actually have 40% I2-din on average.
> And 18% R1A on average.
> But that does not means that we are Slavs.
> It means that people from Balkans were assimilated by Slavs.
> To whom ex-Yugos and Bulgarians are clustering on autosomal testing,with Ukrainians,Russians,Poles,Czechs,Slovaks?
> No, they cluster very near or over Romanians.


Even Serbs and Croats (which have more I2a-Din than Romanians don't have 40% I2a-Din) have less than 40% I2a-Din.
Romanians have 28% I2a-Din https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

According to Eupedia there is 34% I2a-Din in Serbia, but ethic Serbs have around 37% I2-Din.

I2a-Din came with Slavs in VII century.
Aromanians which are purest Vlachs than Romanians have less I2a-Din than Romanians, Albanian and Greeks have even less I2a-Din than Aromanians.

There is more holders of I2a-Din among Russians than in whole Balkans.
Number or Russians is around 150 millions and about 57 millions are men, among Russians I2a is 10,5% which means that among Russians there is around 7,9 million holders of I2a-Din and that is more than in Balkans.

Vlachs haplogroups are eastern R1b, E-V13 and J2b.

----------


## Litovoi

E-V13 scores more than 20% in the Western Wallachia, 2 samples from Martinez-Cruz and one from Cruciani 2004,while,for example, Cluj(M-C) and Ploiesti(Bosch) have this figure.
That's why I2a and even R1a are directly related to E-V13,within the Romanian-Vlach populations.
These haplogroups,no matter the origins,must be connected to certain ethnic,cultural ,realities,otherwise we gonna use mathematics/tables much more than law allows it to reach the same senseless results,"we are all from Africa" or "let me do a DNA test,then we talk about Renfrew or Anthony".
Connections between the Romanian-Vlach Y-DNA and autosomes were targeted by these two studies, Schmidt-Hoeckenbeck,"Genetic Studies in South Balkan Populations" and Bosch,Paternal and maternal...Aromuns",because,although we don't know if these share their samples,the same locations are being used,Ploiesti and Constanta,for the Romanians,Andon Poci,Kogalniceanu,Stip etc,for the Aromanians.

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...ovo66u6CyCghST
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.00251.x/full

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11591048/

----------


## Litovoi

Serbian kjelator that designates a Vlach function,doesn't come from Greek kellas,a sheep,because the word is Romanian,calator means traveller and it is the typical Latin formation,association, road-traveller,via-viator,cale(Latin callis)-calator,which is preserved only in this language.
https://books.google.ro/books?id=SqV...zation&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

Those "travellers" were actually well-defined Vlach groups with very high levels of autonomy,since mobility was always a key factor in both the strategical-military and economical-commercial activities ,apart from those involved in the nobility and bishop,ecclesiastical, routine.

----------


## Dumidre

The Vlachs from the left bank of the Danube and the ones from the right bank of the Danube are the product of the Roman presence in the region... there was no migration northbound or southbound... well, with the exception of the transhumance of the shepherds (they were always on the move, they didn’t believe in owning the land; kind of like the Native American Indians). The reason that the Vlachs from the South and Vlachs from the North have a very similar language is because they are the descendants of Roman Dacian/Thracian simbiosis.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Zanatis

> Serbian kjelator that designates a Vlach function,doesn't come from Greek kellas,a sheep,because the word is Romanian,calator means traveller and it is the typical Latin formation,association, road-traveller,via-viator,cale(Latin callis)-calator,which is preserved only in this language.
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=SqV...zation&f=false


When I read the word calator and its meaning I immediately thought of "calle" in Spanish which means "street".

----------


## Zanatis

> Latin speaking ancestors of Romanians came to modern Romania from Bulgaria and southern Balkans in period from 12th to 14th century.
> Before 12th century there was no Latin speaking people in territory of modern Romania, in present day Romania in middle age majoriry of populations were Slavs, but also Hungarians, Avars Saxons, Cumans, Tatars and Pechenegs were present.
> 
> Latin speakers who came to Wallachian plain from areas south of Danube in 12-14th century were assimilated local Slavs, and from that mix was created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
> Modern Romanians have around 45% Slavic Y DNA (I2a 27%, R1a 18%), real Vlach haplogroups are eastern R1b, J2b and E-V13.
> The purest Vlachs are Vlachs from southern Balkans (Aromanians), they have much less Slavic influence than Romanians which has heavy Slavic influence.
> 
> Romanian language until mid of 19th century was more Slavic than Latin, even today there is around 20% Slavic words in Romanian language.
> 
> There is a hundreds of Slavic toponyms in Romania today, and in the past even more.


Seems highly unlikely that the E-V13, J2b, and R1b Latin speaking mountain dwelling shepherds moved North and assimilated local Slavs when in reality the opposite was going on. Local Vlachs in the Balkans were being assimilated to Slavs after 14th or 15th century, especially in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Dalmatia, and even Albania. 

Many families from the village of Vraka, North Albania known today as Montenegrins/Serbs were actually Orthodox Vlachs before.

----------


## Litovoi

> Romanian gaura,a hole,from Latin cavola,can be connected to Mons Gaurus,Monte Gauro,a volcanic mountain with caldera.
> https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Monte_Gauro_-_la_caldera_occupata_dal_"Carney_Park"_-_Pozzuoli_(NA)_-_2000.jpg
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Gaurus
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Barbaro


The k-g shift is attested in Umbrian kumiaf-gomiaf,S. Italian and Romanian ,zgaiba,Latin scabies

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...ZliwodPTkBrhEF


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cavus

----------


## Bachus

> Seems highly unlikely that the E-V13, J2b, and R1b Latin speaking mountain dwelling shepherds moved North and assimilated local Slavs when in reality the opposite was going on. Local Vlachs in the Balkans were being assimilated to Slavs after 14th or 15th century, especially in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Dalmatia, and even Albania. 
> 
> Many families from the village of Vraka, North Albania known today as Montenegrins/Serbs were actually Orthodox Vlachs before.


Some Vlachs in Balkans were asimilatted by south Slavs, Albanians and Greeks.

Vlachs which migrated from Bulgaria, southeastern Serbia and southern Balkans to modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century asimilatted a lot of Slavs in modern Romania. Because of that Romanian language is genetic are heavy Slavic influenced, in Romania there is a hundreds Slavic toponyms.

Some Vlachs are slavized, albanized and helenized, but some Slavs are vlachized.
Romanians are not only one Vlachs which absorbed Slavic population, Aromanians also absorbed some Slavs but less than Romanians. 
Aromanians have 17% I2a1b and 10% R1a, which means that Aromanians have 27% Slavic Y DNA.
Romanians have 28% I2a1b and 18% R1a, which means that Romanians have 46% Slavic Y DNA.


Many Vlacho-Romanian rulers from middle age had Slavic names such as:

Vlad the Impaler (Vlad is from a short form of Slavic names Vladimir and Vladislav) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad

Bogdan III the One-Eyed (Bogdan is name of Slavic origin, very popular among south Slavs, Russians and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdan_III_the_One-Eyed

Radu I of Wallachia (Rad means work on many Slavic language, name Rade is very popular among Serbs and name Radek is very popular among Czechs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radu_I_of_Wallachia

Mircea I of Wallachia (name Mircea derivated from Slavic word Mir which means peace, Slavic names Miroslav and Mirko also derivated from Mir) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_I_of_Wallachia

----------


## Milan.M

> Some Vlachs in Balkans were asimilatted by south Slavs, Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> Vlachs which migrated from Bulgaria, southeastern Serbia and southern Balkans to modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century asimilatted a lot of Slavs in modern Romania. Because of that Romanian language is genetic are heavy Slavic influenced, in Romania there is a hundreds Slavic toponyms.
> 
> Some Vlachs are slavized, albanized and helenized, but some Slavs are vlachized.
> Romanians are not only one Vlachs which absorbed Slavic population, Aromanians also absorbed some Slavs but less than Romanians. 
> Aromanians have 17% I2a1b and 10% R1a, which means that Aromanians have 27% Slavic Y DNA.
> Romanians have 28% I2a1b and 18% R1a, which means that Romanians have 46% Slavic Y DNA.
> 
> ...


Well Dacia was Roman province from 107–275.Genetically both Italians and Romanians have very little to nothing in common except Latin based language.
Romanians live next to Slavs for thousands years and are very similar genetically.
Romanians used Old Church Slavonic in churches until 19th century,had Slavic names even in present.
Romanian language was much more Slavic influenced until it's reformation,making it more Latin.
Wallachia was more under Bulgarian rule than ever was Roman.
Overall Vlachs and Slavs had similar/same history and there wasn't culture bariers,except one being more agriculturalist other more pastoralists.

----------


## Litovoi

The Daco-Romanians share with Italians the L-vocalization after the consonant, a feature not present in Dalmatian,Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian or Istro-R,which proves their more northern origins,near the important centers like Sirmium,Viminacium,Singidunum and Naissus,that have maintained some contacts with Rome.
Daco-R cheie,It.chiave,Megleno-R claili,Macedo-R cliai,Dalm. clus,Latin clavis.
L clamare,Dr chiama,I chiamare
L clarus,Dr chiar(even),I chiaro
L sclavus,Dr schiau,I schiavo
LclaudereDr inchide I chiudere
L glacies,Dr gheata,I ghiaccio
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/clavis
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/glacies#Latin
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...hyH71TnUGRDrnI

----------


## Litovoi

https://books.google.ro/books?id=zEB...romans&f=false

----------


## Yetos

> Some Vlachs in Balkans were asimilatted by south Slavs, Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> Vlachs which migrated from Bulgaria, southeastern Serbia and southern Balkans to modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century asimilatted a lot of Slavs in modern Romania. Because of that Romanian language is genetic are heavy Slavic influenced, in Romania there is a hundreds Slavic toponyms.
> 
> Some Vlachs are slavized, albanized and helenized, but some Slavs are vlachized.
> Romanians are not only one Vlachs which absorbed Slavic population, Aromanians also absorbed some Slavs but less than Romanians. 
> Aromanians have 17% I2a1b and 10% R1a, which means that Aromanians have 27% Slavic Y DNA.
> Romanians have 28% I2a1b and 18% R1a, which means that Romanians have 46% Slavic Y DNA.
> 
> ...



one of the biggest Vlach tribes is from Slavic origin
the Antes

----------


## Zanatis

@Litovoi 

The k-g shif and L-vocalization are also features of Albanian.

Also, check the case of Ganga, a traditional type of singing in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Lika and Montenegro derived from Albanian "kanga" (song).

----------


## Litovoi

> When I read the word calator and its meaning I immediately thought of "calle" in Spanish which means "street".


Yes,but it helps only in finding the etymology of kjelatori,there's no need to involve Komani-Kruje here,because those Vlachs were performing lots of military activities, even if some of them may have guarded the roads as well.
These kjelatori from the Serbian Kingdom made long-distance trading using caravans,some of them are recorded along the Dalmatian coast,while their military roles too connects them with the frontier zone.
That calatori was a special Vlach category clearly comes from the Greek translation, hoditai,applied to those frontier men from the Bulgarian side,with unsure status,thoughts and even affiliation, that have killed their leader,David,in his own domain,along the Prespa-Kastoria area.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=KHC...tomans&f=false

https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...cumans&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastoria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prespa

----------


## Zanatis

> Yes,but it helps only in finding the etymology of kjelatori,there's no need to involve Komani-Kruje here,because those Vlachs were performing lots of military activities, even if some of them may have guarded the roads as well.
> These kjelatori from the Serbian Kingdom made long-distance trading using caravans,some of them are recorded along the Dalmatian coast,while their military roles too connects them with the frontier zone.
> That calatori was a special Vlach category clearly comes from the Greek translation, hoditai,applied to those frontier men from the Bulgarian side,with unsure status,thoughts and even affiliation, that have killed their leader,David,in his own domain,along the Prespa-Kastoria area.
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=KHC...tomans&f=false
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...cumans&f=false


I didn't mention anything about Komani-Kruje. Just pointed out that the Latin word didn't just survive in Romanian.

----------


## Litovoi

The Romanian word for hair is par,which comes from Latin pilus,"a normal hair",while the Albanian has flok,Latin floccus,"tuft".
Let's face it,many Dacian and Thracian warriors are described as pretty tuft,no wonder that Decebalus was not making a special case here

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/floccus

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/pilus


https://books.google.ro/books?id=MnB...20tuft&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

https://books.google.ro/books?id=8KC...0shave&f=false

----------


## mihaitzateo

Romanian language is not same with Aromanian.
Aromanian might be a dialect of Romanian language.
However,on all land of Romania there is spoken only one language, Romanian, there are no dialects.
Romanian language,unlike Aromanian, has around 25% of the words cognates to Slavic languages.
2.7% of Romanian words are cognates to West Germanic languages.
This is a clear proof that Romanians as a people and Romanian language formed on current land of Romania,after Slavic migrations and Romanians did not came from South of Danube.
2.7% of the words cognates to West Germanic languages can be explained only by the contact that the Dacians had with West Germanic speakers.
And West Germanic speakers were never present South of Danube.
Want example of Romanian basic words cognates to West Germanic words?
Meshter in Romanian, same meaning with Meister from German.
Treapta, a step from a stair, from Treppe (stair) in West German.
Compair to trepte ,plural of treapta.

And so on.

Romanians also have R1b-U106,fewer or more,they also have lots of Eastern European admixture and 20-30% NW European admixture.


Another clear example that Romanians were in Romania,and not South of Danube, when the Slavs came:
In the areas of Romania that were not under Roman Empire occupation, snow is called "zapada".
This is cognate to Slavic zapadati, which means snow falling.
In the areas of Romania that were occupied by Roman Empire, snow is called Nea.
In Aromanian language,snow is also called Nea.
Which shows that actually, Zapada comes from the Dacian language, not from Slavic and that Dacians language had some cognates to Balto-Slavic/ProtoSlavic languages.
Because all Slavic speakers took a Germanic cognate for Snow now,calling either snjeg or other variants.

Also, Romanian folk language has the word Doina, which is a song of melancholy,or so, cognate to Lithuanian Daina.
Daina in Lithuanian means a song.
Slavs do not have this word.
This is again,a word from Dacian language,that was kept in Romanian.

Another word that shows Romanian language formed on current land of Romania:
In Romanian,we call neck "gat" cognate to Slavic glutu.
In Aromanian, gat is called "gusa" from latin geusiae.
This is a word from basic words,so it cannot be borrowed from Slavic,but it is inherited from Dacian and was kept.
A lot of Romanian words from basic language are cognates to Romance languages.

So Aromanian language formed South of Danube .
And Romanian language formed North of Danube.

----------


## Yetos

> Romanian language is not same with Aromanian.
> Aromanian might be a dialect of Romanian language.
> However,on all land of Romania there is spoken only one language, Romanian, there are no dialects.
> Romanian language,unlike Aromanian, has around 25% of the words cognates to Slavic languages.
> 2.7% of Romanian words are cognates to West Germanic languages.
> This is a clear proof that Romanians as a people and Romanian language formed on current land of Romania,after Slavic migrations and Romanians did not came from South of Danube.
> 2.7% of the words cognates to West Germanic languages can be explained only by the contact that the Dacians had with West Germanic speakers.
> And West Germanic speakers were never present South of Danube.
> Want example of Romanian basic words cognates to West Germanic words?
> ...


that is interesting

----------


## Litovoi

Let's solve this unknown etymology ,since it's definitely not a hard one:
copil,a child,comes 100% from Latin copulo,copulare.
In Albanian,this word is a borrowing, because the original meaning, a bastard,is preserved,while the further development of the Romanian sense implies its use as a slang,common to the urban speech.
Phonetics doesn't cause too many problems either,we do have Romyliana,instead of Romuliana,in the Procopius' list.
The Romanian,Spanish and Catalan term for the male sexual organ underwent a similar development,because it's coming from chicken.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/copulare#Italian
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html

----------


## Ordas

If there would be no dialects in Rumanian like Mihaitzateo posted, would that be not the proof the language was already formed when ut came to the Rumanian lands? But I heard from oltenian dialect and moldovan dialect, muntenian dialect etc. I also think the west german borrowings are relativly recent, maybe from the so called saxons ( who in reality are bayuwars from Austria and suebs from the black forest region in Germany. They were settled in Transylvania which in German has the name Siebenbürgen (7castles or fortresses) from the hungarian King and Austrian Emperor. 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G903F mit Tapatalk

----------


## Litovoi

One of the main principles in linguistics is that the central areas will go innovative,while the peripheral ones,conservative,this is also the case for Latin,with Romanian and Spanish, sharing terms that have become archaic in
Italian and French.
These specificities reject the idea of a Italian-Romanian proximity, strengthen by the fact that Dalmatian goes with the innovations (bellus,plus,mittere,against dies).
https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limba_spaniolă

----------


## Litovoi

Nevertheless, since the Romans have entered the Balkans and Dacia through the Drin and Morava valleys,it would seem logical to see some connections with Southern Italy.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=L3p...manian&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...f3VSL8L9vLLfVt

----------


## Litovoi

The Castelmezzano dialect eventually becomes peripheral, conservative,in southern Italy, given the geography and weaker contacts with the Latin speakers from the Balkans,another important fact is that this area doesn't overlap with Arbereshe,so a supposed influence can be excluded.
http://www.familyholiday.net/the-mos...castelmezzano/
https://ecobnb.com/blog/2014/07/basi...flying-clouds/

----------


## Azzurro

> The Castelmezzano dialect eventually becomes peripheral, conservative,in southern Italy, given the geography and weaker contacts with the Latin speakers from the Balkans,another important fact is that this area doesn't overlap with Arbereshe,so a supposed influence can be excluded.
> http://www.familyholiday.net/the-mos...castelmezzano/
> https://ecobnb.com/blog/2014/07/basi...flying-clouds/


My parental grandparents are from one of the Castelmezzano dialect speaking villages.

Little vocabulary this is an expression that they say for tomorrow, the day after, the day after that and repeated for an additional two days

Crei, Pescrei, Pescrile, Mingrile e Mingrotte

----------


## Salento

> My parental grandparents are from one of the Castelmezzano dialect speaking villages.
> 
> Little vocabulary this is an expression that they say for tomorrow, the day after, the day after that and repeated for an additional two days
> 
> Crei, Pescrei, Pescrile, Mingrile e Mingrotte


At About 100 Km Southeast from Castelmazzano, in most dialects:
Crai, Buscrai, Buscriggri.
The 1st 2 words, with small variations are popular in many Towns of South Italy. The Last 2, are not familiar to me.

----------


## Litovoi

> My parental grandparents are from one of the Castelmezzano dialect speaking villages.
> Little vocabulary this is an expression that they say for tomorrow, the day after, the day after that and repeated for an additional two days
> Crei, Pescrei, Pescrile, Mingrile e Mingrotte


Some of these words ,at least,come from Old Latin,like nesterze(nudius tertius),while
crei- pescrei seems similar to Romanian maine-poimaine(post+mane).

http://blog.libero.it/tresbarrato/co...30903&id=67165

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/nudius

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dies#Latin


Even if Castelmezzano has preserved additional elements, it is hard to believe that the surrounding/other Southern Italian dialects 
are very different.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=sE-...manian&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

I don' t agree with Ludke,because Campania has always been the most important region from Southern Italy.
In Romanian and Neapolitan Latin s turns to sh,
another very interesting fact is that Campania was the main trading region from Italy,which both explains the many semantic shifts of the Latin lucrum in Romanian,plus the taste of Western Wallachians for well-defined 
clothes and extended physical preparations,such as fine haircuts, it is a region where men too spend their time looking in the mirror, without affecting virility, to the contrary,
it is a matter of status.
https://books.google.ro/books?id=6dg...mmerce&f=false

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/lucru#Romanian


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_language

----------


## Azzurro

> At About 100 Km Southeast from Castelmazzano, in most dialects:
> Crai, Buscrai, Buscriggri.
> The 1st 2 words, with small variations are popular in many Towns of South Italy. The Last 2, are not familiar to me.


I know Barese dialect also uses a variation of this as well, with the ending is different, my cousins wife is Barese they have until the 4th one.

----------


## Azzurro

> Some of these words ,at least,come from Old Latin,like nesterze(nudius tertius),while
> crei- pescrei seems similar to Romanian maine-poimaine(post+mane).
> 
> http://blog.libero.it/tresbarrato/co...30903&id=67165
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/nudius
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dies#Latin
> 
> ...


They aren’t too different, like Salento stated around the vicinity of where he’s from Lecce they use a similar vocabulary and even the Barese dialect, they are different than Sicilian and Napolitan dialects, perhaps preserving more archaic elements.

----------


## Litovoi

Here's an interesting placename in Campania,Baiae-Baia,Rome's most appreciated baths:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiae


https://www.google.ro/amp/s/timeless...s-of-baia/amp/


https://www.jstor.org/stable/470158?...n_tab_contents

Romanian
baie=bath
baia=the bath

----------


## Litovoi

It looks like people from those area socialized naturally, were desinvolte,sincere, loved to party intensely, without a doubt,an instinctive carpe diem,preserved in the Romanian word for party,petrecere,Latin pertraicere,which literally meant something very intense,that changes you completely and from which you will never return.
These parties helped them to succeed naturally in life,to be very fast,creative,really charismatic,with initiative,sociable, sincere.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/histo.../campania.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osci#

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/petrece#Romanian

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/traicio#Latin

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/petrecere#Romanian

----------


## Dumidre

I deleted my previous post because of inaccurate map that I posted... my bad.

----------


## Litovoi

Baiae-Beverly Hills of Ancient Rome


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sHmXzzBRhO8



http://www.romanaqueducts.info/aquas...no2/index.html


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozzuoli

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.britannica.com/place/Pozzuoli


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...16114/abstract

----------


## Litovoi

In reality,the number of preserved Latin elements should be even bigger in the south,because in Northern Italy the Byzantine-Greek influence was way more institutionalized and constant,under the form of Exarchate of Ravenna-Ostrogothic Kingdom,even if I am talking about a shorter span.

----------


## Litovoi

> Well Dacia was Roman province from 107–275.Genetically both Italians and Romanians have very little to nothing in common except Latin based language.
> Romanians live next to Slavs for thousands years and are very similar genetically.
> Romanians used Old Church Slavonic in churches until 19th century,had Slavic names even in present.
> Romanian language was much more Slavic influenced until it's reformation,making it more Latin.
> Wallachia was more under Bulgarian rule than ever was Roman.
> Overall Vlachs and Slavs had similar/same history and there wasn't culture bariers,except one being more agriculturalist other more pastoralists.


These Vlachs are very fast even now,check some Moravian clips,where they claim to have already reached a million.
Despite mobility, certain centers and settlements have always been here and there,otherwise Serbia wouldn't have had a number of Romanian placenames(apart from Timok),like Catun,Surdul(The Deaf),Vlasina,Vlasotinoce etc,with definitely a well-structured economy,for instance,my father's village produces the best plum brandy from the entire Wallachia,branded Two Velvet Eyes,Dobrin's Eyes or simply Tuica de Pitesti and has one of the main pottery workshops,with a variety of goods ,such as TEST(TZEST),from Latin TESTUM,which is an OVEN for BAKING BREAD,the oldest piece was discovered in the Olt county and dates from the 10th c.

----------


## Litovoi

http://testuripaine.com/despre-noi/


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/testum

----------


## Litovoi

motto
"Hrs' men divided the contents of the General's tent and spent the night mocking and laughing at the debacle of the Romans".

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3480


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Wallachia


http://www.radio.cz/en/section/spotl...t-doesnt-exist


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b7BiIOhKxGQ


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFh_lb2cWtM

----------


## Litovoi

The increased levels of I2a ,30% in the lineages,suggests a mainly Moldavian origin of the Moravian Valachs,since the article hypothesis, an Ukrainian input due to the migration from Transylvania can be easily overruled ,because even now people from the Western Carpathians are overwhelmingly Dinaric.Moldavians score 48% in Piatra-Neamt probably because the early rulers like Bogdan and Dragos and their successors have kept some contacts with the Serbian royalty,while the relations with the Polish Kingdom,that has occupied the largest part(including Ukraine) of the Western Carpathians,are well-known.
The Moldavian colonization have reached Silesia,with over 600 villages recorded by the Polish acts until 1600(Polish source).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=40.1408
Even if the level of Serbian borrowings is overally low,we recognize some additional words for the Northern Romanian dialects, which are proportional to the Western Romance elements and the n-r rhotacism.
According to the Romanian and Hungarian historians,the n-r rhotacized speech,which was integrated into the Northern Romanian dialects,was used by the Vlach speakers that lived around the Ibar and possibly Lower Sava and Western Romania,while the lack of it is recorded on the Morava valley.
This data from the Early Serbia was used as a criteria for placing Aromanian,that shares the lowest number of n-r rhotacism with Wallachian,on the Morava around Nis,however it is clearly connected to the Northern Romanian dialects at some extent,so a more western position is indicated,perhaps near/towards Ulpiana,that would explain the additional elements ,common with the Southern Italian dialects and the least Western Romance influence.

----------


## Litovoi

> Some Vlachs in Balkans were asimilatted by south Slavs, Albanians and Greeks.
> Vlachs which migrated from Bulgaria, southeastern Serbia and southern Balkans to modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century asimilatted a lot of Slavs in modern Romania. Because of that Romanian language is genetic are heavy Slavic influenced, in Romania there is a hundreds Slavic toponyms.
> Some Vlachs are slavized, albanized and helenized, but some Slavs are vlachized.
> Romanians are not only one Vlachs which absorbed Slavic population, Aromanians also absorbed some Slavs but less than Romanians. 
> Aromanians have 17% I2a1b and 10% R1a, which means that Aromanians have 27% Slavic Y DNA.
> Romanians have 28% I2a1b and 18% R1a, which means that Romanians have 46% Slavic Y DNA.
> Many Vlacho-Romanian rulers from middle age had Slavic names such as:
> Vlad the Impaler (Vlad is from a short form of Slavic names Vladimir and Vladislav) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad
> Bogdan III the One-Eyed (Bogdan is name of Slavic origin, very popular among south Slavs, Russians and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdan_III_the_One-Eyed
> ...


Speaking of freestyle liberty fighters or hajduks,their deeds are remembered in this fragment of a movie,the action takes place in the Habsburg Empire,shortly after the disintegration of the first Romanian state,created by the Wallachians at 1600,not that easily, fighting against the Ottomans, Poles,Hungarians, Habsburgs,and,of course,Moldavians.
It's about the leftovers of the Wallachian army,that,although remain without a goal,start to feel somehow sentimental and decide to turn back home.
We do have this Western Wallachian actor that starts to sing a very beautiful song"At the beginning of spring/Girls are coming/To take a fresh air /Naked, to be fair/I just wanna be a yarn/To bite them,to kiss them, till dawn/Seems that I don't need anything else...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KkrDXMz5wWE

----------


## Litovoi

Juraj Janosik sounds Vlach,I mean he was born in Terchowa and fought against the Habsburgs at the beginning.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juraj_Jánošík#

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terchová

https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIN...0kuruc&f=false
The Polish movie:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99iTSclb8oc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j2iLY5PnsVY

----------


## Litovoi

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texascz...%20Valachs.htm

----------


## Litovoi

Although rhotacism is a well-known Latin compound, for the Romanian speech we encounter the following phonological shift, it is the story of certain d,that turns to r,so common in Napolitano, but it was not observed so far.

Latin admissarius,Romanian armasar

The assimilation doesn't cause too many problems, because it was triggered by the rhotacism, for example,Latin fenestra,Romanian fereastra.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_language

----------


## Litovoi

In the present post I will refer to a very important article that literally changed the lives of the Western Carpathian people, Valaska namely,without a doubt,one of the most representative symbols of the above-mentioned communities.
With an alternative name that leaves little room for interpretations, Shepherd's Axe,replicated, just like the Romanian-Vlach originals, into a softer metal-free staff,it represents the key item for certain outstanding personalities,such as Juraj Janosik.
We can easily identify the Roman traditions here,present in both dolabra and securis versions,since many events have exceeded the geographical barriers .


https://www.google.ro/amp/s/aaroncri...j-janosik/amp/


http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rogerulric...odworking.html


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/securis



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_axe

----------


## Litovoi

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~rogerulric...axe_rmn_72.jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora...alach_1787.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ansylvania.jpg

----------


## Dumidre

> Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach.
> 
> The Vlach people are primarily pastoralists involved in the raising of livestock, they have inhabited the mountains of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the former Yugoslavia and profess the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. Traditionally they spoke a proto-Romanian language and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups. 
> 
> This figure illustrates two of the three origin theories as proposed by Bosch et al. (2005), namely that the Vlachs originated from either the Dacians or the Thracians along the Danube.
> 
> In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although *a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out*.'
> 
> 'All the Balkan populations analysed here were genetically homogeneous with the exception of some Aromun samples. This was particularly evident with the Y chromosome, as both haplogroup and 19 STR haplotype based data showed significant differences among the Aromun groups. Therefore, it seems that the Aromun populations *do not constitute a homogeneous group* separated from the rest of the Balkan populations, but that they *present relative heterogeneity*, especially for paternal lineage composition, between themselves.'
> ...


This is what Encyclopedia Britannica has about Vlachs:

Vlach[LEFT]European ethnic group
  Written By:  
Victor A. Friedman

 See Article History 

   *Alternative Titles:* Armãn, Aromanian, Macedo-Vlach, Macedoromanian, Rãmãn, Vlah
*Vlach*, also spelled *Vlah*, autonyms *Armãn* and *Rãmãn*, also called *Aromanian,* *Macedoromanian,* and *Macedo-Vlach*, any of a group of Romance-language speakers who live south of the Danube in what are now southern Albania, northern Greece, the Republic of Macedonia, and southwestern Bulgaria. Vlach is the English-language term used to describe such an individual. The majority of Vlachs speak Aromanian, but inhabitants of a few villages on both sides of the border between Greece and southeastern Macedonia speak Meglenoromanian and call themselves Vla (plural Vlaš). There is also a Vlach diaspora in other European countries, especially Romania, as well as in North America and Australia.
Estimates of the number of Vlachs and of Aromanian speakers vary widely. The only official figures for those declaring Vlach ethnic affiliation come from the Republic of Macedonia (2002), 9,695, with 6,884 declaring Vlach their mother tongue; Albania (2011), 8,266, with 3,848 claiming Aromanian as their mother tongue; and Bulgaria (2011), 3,684 ethnic Vlachs. Estimates for Romania vary between 30,000 and 100,000. Estimates for Greece vary even more.
*Etymology of the term Vlach*

The name Vlach comes from a Celtic tribal name recorded by Caesar as Volcae and by Strabo and Ptolemy as Ouólkai, and it was transferred from Latin to Gothic as *_walhs_. In Gothic, from which it entered Slavic, the ethnonym took on the meaning “foreigner” or “Latin speaker.” The form Vlach reflects South Slavic metathesis, while the name of the former Romanian kingdom of Walachia reflects East Slavic treatment.
In Serbia the term Vlach (Serbian Vlah, plural Vlasi) is also used to refer to Romanian speakers, especially those living in eastern Serbia. Formerly, the term was used for any Romanian speaker. The term Cincar (plural Cincari) is used in Serbia for Aromanians. That term is not favoured by Aromanians, but some in Serbia use it to distinguish themselves from Romanians. It has its origins as a nickname based on the Aromanian pronunciation of the word for “five”—_tsints_—as opposed to the Romanian word _cinci_ (pronounced “chinchi”). In Greece the term Kutsovlach (“lame Vlach”) is sometimes used, but many find it offensive.
Aromanians themselves use the ethnonym Armãn (plural Armãni) or Rãmãn (plural Rãmãni), etymologically from Romanus, meaning “Roman.” Meglenoromanians designate themselves with the Macedonian form Vla (plural Vlaš) in their own language. In the modern Aromanian orthography used in the Republic of Macedonia, the only country where Aromanian has official status (it is one of the officially recognized minority languages), a tilde (~) is used to indicate schwa (i.e., _ã_), rather than the breve (_ă_) of Romanian. In the 21st century both Aromanian and Meglenoromanian were severely endangered languages.
*The question of Vlach origins and how that affects their status*

Although the origin of Aromanian and Meglenoromanian (and Romanian) from Balkan Latin is beyond question, it is unclear to what extent contemporary Balkan Romance speakers are descended from Roman colonists or from indigenous pre-Roman Balkan populations who shifted to Latin. The question itself is of historical interest, but the potential answers are deployed politically. The term Vlach first occurs in late medieval sources, but scholars cannot be certain whether it is used consistently to refer to Romance speakers or not. There is a thousand-year gap in textual attestations of Romance in the Balkans (from the 6th to the 16th centuries ce). It is therefore not known if speakers of Balkan Latin all left Dacia at the end of the Roman occupation (107–271 ce) and then migrated northward after the Magyar invasions at the turn of the millennium, or whether Romanized Dacians remained north of the Danube and survived waves of subsequent invasion, presumably in the mountains, before expanding. Moreover, since Aromanian and Meglenoromanian are spoken south of the Jireček line—i.e., in the region where Greek rather than Latin was the language of inscriptions—there is a question concerning whether those speakers are Romanized autochthonous populations or peoples who migrated to the current locations during the Middle Ages. There is an additional question of whether Meglenoromanian branched off from Aromanian or Romanian.
Nationalist historians deploy one or the other scenario to justify modern territorial claims or claims to indigeneity. Thus, Hungarian (Magyar) claims to Transylvania assume a complete Roman exodus from Dacia, while Romanian claims assume that Romance continued to be spoken by Romanized Dacians. Most scholars who are not nationally affiliated assume the second scenario. As for the Aromanians, it is entirely reasonable to argue that Roman roads in the southern Balkans were lined with Roman guard posts, thus providing a source of spoken Latin in a region where Greek remained the language of inscriptions. That claim is supported by the observation that written language did not necessarily correspond to spoken language in most of the Balkans in ancient times. Those Romans and Romanized indigenous peoples living in regions where Greek was the dominant prestige language became pastoralists or town dwellers during the Slavic invasions of the 6th and 7th centuries, if they were not already in one or the other social class at the time of those invasions.
Linguists generally accept a combination of linguistic and historical reconstruction that postulates a unified East Balkan Romance language area both north and south of the Danube that was broken up sometime between the Slavic invasions (6th–7th century) and the first textual references to Vlachs in Byzantine sources (11th century). Moreover, the evidence of shared innovations in Aromanian and Meglenoromanian indicate that the latter branched off from the former, rather than from Romanian. Some Romanian linguists recognize Aromanian as a separate Balkan Romance language, whereas others consider it a dialect of Romanian despite the many differences and the separation of a millennium or more. For example, Aromanian differs from Romanian in phonology, morphology, syntax, and lexicon. Some dialects have phonemes not found in Romanian, and others have eliminated older Common East Balkan Romance changes that are preserved in Romanian. The overall syntax and lexicon of Aromanian are closer to Albanian, Greek, and Macedonian than those of Romanian, which in those respects patterns more with Bulgarian. Aromanian has also preserved a much higher proportion of vocabulary of Turkish origin than has Romanian. Aromanian is used and codified as a distinct language in the Republic of Macedonia and in Albania. The Ottoman Empire recognized Vlach as a distinct _millet_ (“nation”; i.e., as a distinct church) on May 23, 1905 (May 10, Old Style); May 23 is treated in Macedonia as the Aromanian national holiday. In Greece the Vlachs, like other Christian minorities, have no language rights. Books of Vlach folklore and linguistic studies have, however, been published there, and occasional folklore performances are permitted.

----------


## Litovoi

The coastal Campanian resorts,such as Baiae, were not used by the Rome's elite only for entertainment, in fact, there is clear evidence for existing roads that have linked them with Puteoli,the Empire's most important commercial port, all of these places represented contact zones with the powerful local aristocracy, merchants and landowners,it definitely was enough room for lobby, since these healthy economic relations will soonly become long-lasting,certain mutual influences,including the cultural ones,have been inevitable.


One of the typical examples of these specific contacts is Taurobolium,firstly attested in Puteoli,it becomes an important Imperial cult,the occurrence is definitely not arbitrary, because the term bufalus represents an Oscan development within Latin,having bubalus as a source;b turns to f,like in Sabini-Safineis.


The cult eventually becomes pagan,which explains the negative and restrained semantics of the Romanian popular term buala(Latin bubalus),used as a admonishing formula for driving cattle and in expressions like "Ce bualii(faci)?!", "What the hell(are you doing)?!",another clue that we are dealing with a taboo word comes from the Albanian buall,which preserves the original meaning,a buffalo.


Phonology testifies the Romanian development, with the intervocalic consonant falling, L. caballus,R cal.
However,a rhotacized version ,bour,which is a contamination with bou(bull) of the original buar,has survived in the conservative Moldavian speech,which can indicate that the region's flag dates from the Roman period.

----------


## Litovoi

http://christianthinktank.com/mostlybull.html

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bubalus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag...ms_of_Moldavia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag...de_of_Moldavia

https://books.google.ro/books?id=piX...sabine&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

Question: How do we know if the Romanian buala and bour and the Albanian buall either comes from bubalus or bufalus,since the intervocalic consonant falls anyway?

----------


## Litovoi

Valentinian,Sirmium's Emperor:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0IZyTaJA04
http://understanding-our-past.blogsp...ue-of.html?m=1
The Romanian word for church is biserica and comes from basilica,unlike the Western European Latin countries and Greece,that have terms derived from ecclesia,pointing towards the ecclesiastical organization.
It is very clear that this difference comes from the Romanian political and ecclesiastical autonomy, basilica obviously indicates its military origins,the only Latin text from the Balkans who contains the term comes from Sirmium,"In basilica domini nostri Erenei".
https://books.google.ro/books?id=qSP...litary&f=false
http://theodialogia.blogspot.ro/2013...m-and.html?m=1

Another important fact is that only in Engandine-Romansch, Latin basilica became the main,only,term for church,in all its senses.

----------


## LABERIA

> The Romanian word for hair is par,which comes from Latin pilus,"a normal hair",while the Albanian has flok,Latin floccus,"tuft".
> Let's face it,many Dacian and Thracian warriors are described as pretty tuft,no wonder that Decebalus was not making a special case here
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/floccus
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/pilus
> 
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=MnB...20tuft&f=false


This is really interesting. Now read this:
*floccus*


> *English**Etymology*Borrowed from Latin _floccus_.
> *Noun**floccus* (_plural_ *flocci*)
> 
> (meteorology) A cloud species which consists of rounded tufts of cloud, often formed by dissipation from larger cloud species. Associated with cirrus, cirrocumulus, altocumulus, and stratocumulus genera.[1]
> 
> *Noun**floccus* m (_genitive_ *floccī*); _second declension_
> 
> *tuft, wisp of wool*
> *Descendants*Albanian: flok


*tuft*


> *English**Etymology*From Middle English _tuft_, _toft_, _tofte_, an alteration of earlier _*tuffe_ (> Modern English tuff), from Old French _touffe_, _tuffe_, _toffe_, _tofe_ (“tuft”) (modern French _touffe_), *from Late Latin (near Vegezio) tufa (“helmet crest”),* from Germanic (compare Old English _þūf_ (“tuft”), Old Norse _þúfa_ (“mound”), Swedish _tuva_ (“tussock; grassy hillock”)), from Proto-Germanic _*þūbǭ_, _*þūbaz_; akin to Latin _tūber_ (“hump, swelling”), Ancient Greek _τῡ́φη_ (tū́phē, “cattail (used to stuff beds)”). Same as _tuff_.


*Dictionary Albanian-Albanian*:
*TUFË**-A* _f.
_
This word has many uses in Albanian_

_4. Tufë *flok*ësh(Alb)= bunch of hair( i am not sure if the translation is correct, sorry for my english).





> Let's face it,many Dacian and Thracian warriors are described as pretty tuft,no wonder that Decebalus was not making a special case here


It is documented that Albanians until the XX century used to shave their head and keep this this _tufë flokësh,_ bunch of hairs in the back of their head:

----------


## LABERIA

*Suliot(Albanian) warrior.




*

----------


## LABERIA

> Let's solve this unknown etymology ,since it's definitely not a hard one:
> copil,a child,comes 100% from Latin copulo,copulare.
> In Albanian,this word is a borrowing, because the original meaning, a bastard,is preserved,while the further development of the Romanian sense implies its use as a slang,common to the urban speech.
> Phonetics doesn't cause too many problems either,we do have Romyliana,instead of Romuliana,in the Procopius' list.
> The Romanian,Spanish and Catalan term for the male sexual organ underwent a similar development,because it's coming from chicken.
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/copulare#Italian
> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html


Also, the word passed from Albanian to Greek and greeks use the word _kopela_ for girl.

----------


## FIREYWOTAN

The sights you've shared added a diffent perspective to the ongoing saga of http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html. This helped to clarify another source to use. I'm looking forward to expanding my ongoing education and I appreciate your support.

----------


## Bachus

Original Vlach homeland is modern Albania, northern Greece and Macedonia www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg

Until 12th century there was no any Vlachs in Wallachia (southern Romania).
Vlachs migrated from from Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece to present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgarian in 9th and 10th century, and from there they migrated in modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century.
In Wallachia Vlachs assimilated local Slavs, Cumans and Pechenegs and from that mix were created Vlacho-Romanian nation.

Vlachs from eastern Serbia are not native population, they are imigrants from Banat (near Timisoara) and Oltenia.
Vlachs settled in eastern Serbia in period 1718-1739.
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are divided to Carani, Bufani, Ungurjani and Munćani. Ungurjani and Munćani came from Timisoara Banat, and Carani and Bufani came from Oltenia.

----------


## hrvat22

The Vlachs in Croatia mostly came in the Turkish era, most of them are today's Serbs but part of them are and Croats. We see that in presence of not of Slavic origin E1b V13 subclades, R1b Balkan type subclades and part of I2a Dinaric North subclades. Vlachs haplotypes are probably J2 and some R1a subclades. They are very mixed and different origin, but in my opinion the majority is still Albanian origin or originally Illyrian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

----------


## Bachus

> The Vlachs in Croatia mostly came in the Turkish era, most of them are today's Serbs but part of them are and Croats. We see that in presence of not of Slavic origin E1b V13 subclades, R1b Balkan type subclades and part of I2a Dinaric North subclades. Vlachs haplotypes are probably J2 and some R1a subclades. They are very mixed and different origin, but in my opinion the majority is still Albanian origin or originally Illyrian.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroman...enetic_studies
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml


Serbs from Croatia were not Vlachs.

Vast majority of Serbs came to Croatia from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro).

Autosopmally Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia shifted more northern than Serbs from Serbia, which means that they have less Vlach and more Slavic ancestry than Serbs from Serbia.

----------


## hrvat22

> Serbs from Croatia were not Vlachs.Vast majority of Serbs came to Croatia from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro).Autosopmally Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia shifted more northern than Serbs from Serbia, which means that they have less Vlach and more Slavic ancestry than Serbs from Serbia.


We in Croatia do not have historical records that Serbs come to Croatia except for a couple of records, but there are also mentioned with Vlachs.


For now there is no genetic evidence that anyone comes from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro) to Croatia. In the eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro also existed and Croats and it is possible that this Croats come to Croatia but as I say there is no genetic evidence for this migration.


Regarding Croatian Serbs and more northern autosomally it is possible that this is Croat influence or people who have gone to Orthodoxy because part of Croatian Serbs has R1a subclades that are more typical for Croats, although some other influence is possible.


For now it's my personal opinion and in the future genetics will tell the truth.

----------


## Dumidre

> Original Vlach homeland is modern Albania, northern Greece and Macedonia www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg
> 
> Until 12th century there was no any Vlachs in Wallachia (southern Romania).
> Vlachs migrated from from Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece to present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgarian in 9th and 10th century, and from there they migrated in modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century.
> In Wallachia Vlachs assimilated local Slavs, Cumans and Pechenegs and from that mix were created Vlacho-Romanian nation.


There was no Vlach migration from the south side of the Danube to the north side of the Danube... 
The Vlachs are the by product of the Daco-Roman symbiosis after the Romans conquered Dacia. After the Romans retreated because they couldn’t control the region anymore some of them went with them, but many remained. So, in my opinion, the Vlachs from the south of the Danube have their ancestry in Dacia also. 


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Sile

> There was no Vlach migration from the south side of the Danube to the north side of the Danube... 
> The Vlachs are the by product of the Daco-Roman symbiosis after the Romans conquered Dacia. After the Romans retreated because they couldn’t control the region anymore some of them went with them, but many remained. So, in my opinion, the Vlachs from the south of the Danube have their ancestry in Dacia also. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum


is this link ligit?
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

----------


## FIREYWOTAN

Thank you for your referral it helped to add another layer of interpretation. Locating a new resource that improves perception this creates a helpful tool.

----------


## Guido Anselmi

> Original Vlach homeland is modern Albania, northern Greece and Macedonia


There was no 'original Vlach homeland' as Vlachs were scattered throughout the Balkans, weren't the same people ethnically, and even more confusingly, the term 'Vlach/vlach' meant different things in different places at different times.

----------


## Guido Anselmi

> We in Croatia do not have historical records that Serbs come to Croatia except for a couple of records, but there are also mentioned with Vlachs.
> 
> 
> For now there is no genetic evidence that anyone comes from eastern Herzegovina and old Herzegovina (western Montenegro) to Croatia. In the eastern Herzegovina and western Montenegro also existed and Croats and it is possible that this Croats come to Croatia but as I say there is no genetic evidence for this migration.
> 
> 
> Regarding Croatian Serbs and more northern autosomally it is possible that this is Croat influence or people who have gone to Orthodoxy because part of Croatian Serbs has R1a subclades that are more typical for Croats, although some other influence is possible.
> 
> 
> For now it's my personal opinion and in the future genetics will tell the truth.


Not only are genetics showing that Croatia's Serbs came from Eastern Hercegovina and NW Montenegro, we also have records of these migrations. The historical picture is becoming clearer with the majority of Serbs in Croatia descended from the Banjani, Drobnjak, and Piper tribes, but not from Old Montenegro nor the Seven Mountain Tribes of Eastern Montenegro. The route taken by these people was from their base towards Ozren in Bosnia, then West towards today's Mrkonjic-Grad and Bosanski Petrovac, from which they then went into all four cardinal directions.

None of these were Croatians. Some of these were of Vlach stock but were already Slavicized.

As for Croatian migrations after the Ottoman Empire's takeover of today's Bosnia, the Bunjevci settled in Lika and the Croatians of Eastern Hercegovina (around Neum, Popovo Polje) moved to the Dubrovnik region while Croatians in West Hercegovina and West Bosnia criss-crossed over into Dalmatia and vice versa depending on the political/security/economic situations of the time of their movements, which were several.

We have a record of the arrival in the late 15th century of actual Vlachs showing up in the Cetina region who were legally and ethnically differentiated from local Croats and Serbs, spoke their own language, but were Catholic unlike the Orthodox Vlachs/Serbs who began showing up.

----------


## hrvat22

> Guido Anselmi






> Not only are genetics showing that Croatia's Serbs came from Eastern Hercegovina and NW Montenegro, we also have records of these migrations.


We do not have historical records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia, except a few but it's from Bosnia. 

Genetics does not show migration from eastern Hercegovina, because genetic evidence for that does not exist.




> The historical picture is becoming clearer with the majority of Serbs in Croatia descended from the Banjani, Drobnjak, and Piper tribes, but not from Old Montenegro nor the Seven Mountain Tribes of Eastern Montenegro.


Prove this migration path with genetic data, in Montenegro also exist and Croats so it is possible that they also come to Croatia, however as I speak genetic data for that migration does not exist.




> The route taken by these people was from their base towards Ozren in Bosnia, then West towards today's Mrkonjic-Grad and Bosanski Petrovac, from which they then went into all four cardinal directions.


Prove this migration with genetic data, till then you talk fairy tales.




> None of these were Croatians. Some of these were of Vlach stock but were already Slavicized.


If part of Croatian Serbs have R1a subclades similar to Croatian R1a subclades then it is possible that they are same origin. Otherwise then all Croats with that R1a subclades come with Vlachs which is unlikely because it is an haplotype that comes with Croats in the 7th century or in the time of Slavic migration.




> As for Croatian migrations after the Ottoman Empire's takeover of today's Bosnia, the Bunjevci settled in Lika and the Croatians of Eastern Hercegovina (around Neum, Popovo Polje) moved to the Dubrovnik region while Croatians in West Hercegovina and West Bosnia criss-crossed over into Dalmatia and vice versa depending on the political/security/economic situations of the time of their movements, which were several.


You have genetics and prove it.




> We have a record of the arrival in the late 15th century of actual Vlachs showing up in the Cetina region who were legally and ethnically differentiated from local Croats and Serbs, spoke their own language, but were Catholic unlike the Orthodox Vlachs/Serbs who began showing up.


This is one of proofs that Vlachs are coming to Croatia, give me historical records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia and especially from Eastern Herzegovina.

----------


## Wonomyro

> None of these were Croatians.


That contradicts several historical sources from different time periods.

----------


## LABERIA

Regarding Vlachs there are two theories.
First, they are one of the four branches of the Romanian nation. They are from today Romania and during the middle age they migrated from their homeland. For example Thessaly during the middle age was called Great Wallachia. When Albanians migrated from Epir in Thessaly during the middle age they don't meet Greeks but Vlachs. Basically Dacians. 
Second, Vlachs are latinized populations of Epir and from this region they migrated in the direction of Romania. Basically Illyrians. 
One thing we know about them for sure. An important British scholar, Τ. Winnifrith(if i am not wrong he is a Vlach) has proven that Vlachs before latinization were not Greeks. And this conclusion of Winnifrith is very important in both cases.

----------


## Yetos

> Regarding Vlachs there are two theories.
> First, they are one of the four branches of the Romanian nation. They are from today Romania and during the middle age they migrated from their homeland. For example Thessaly during the middle age was called Great Wallachia. When Albanians migrated from Epir in Thessaly during the middle age they don't meet Greeks but Vlachs. Basically Dacians. 
> Second, Vlachs are latinized populations of Epir and from this region they migrated in the direction of Romania. Basically Illyrians. 
> One thing we know about them for sure. An important British scholar, Τ. Winnifrith(if i am not wrong he is a Vlach) has proven that Vlachs before latinization were not Greeks. And this conclusion of Winnifrith is very important in both cases.



your hate against Greeks is obvious in every of your posts,
as your ignorance, and your selective chapters of ''scholars''

----------


## Yetos

The Vlachs are 2 major Linguistic groups,
5 groups to a lower degree,
The Aromani origin is clear not a nation,but a state citizenship,

*1, THE TERMINOLOGY AND ETYMOLOGY OF THE WORD VLACH
*comes from the word *Villach* Βιλλαχιον meaning Village
their language is *Aromani*, *Romani,

2 the Origin of Vlachs
*The Vlachs are descending from* Local Balcanic pop, Roman Legions, and Slavs,

a. local Balcanic group 1

The Diocletian (Roman emperror) codex FORBID the Greek language above a line, 
that created a latinisation or Local pop especially where stong Villas and Roman families existed (Con/polis, Phillipopolis, Beroea (St Zagora) Arnaia etc)

b. THE LEGIONS HOMELAND and DISBAND

where LEGIONS DISBAND, VILLAGES WERE CREATED, So THE SOLDIERS BECOME PEASANTS =VILLACHS* (and the sons of Villachs become new legionaires)

*i)* especially at* Moesia*  (group 2)* Legio V Makedonica* *Legio XI Claudia*
that created the Group called *MEGLE VLACHS 
Megle Vlachs are in Romania, Serbia, North Bulgaria, Hungary, and Moldova.



ii) Legio Flavia Felix* group 3 
at west balkans specially around* NIS and Dalmatia Monte-Negro Albania Kossovo Fyrom, South Serbia, NW Greece

iii) Legio IV Makedonika* group 4 
That is the mother legio of *Kutsuk Vlachs 
KUTSUK VLACHS live only in Greece in Thessaly, W Makedonia, and east parts of Sterea

*they have nothing to do with Diocletian line or Megle Vlachs
in their lands also devastate Megle and other Vlachs from 1770 and after


*3. The Latinised Slavs the ANTES* group 5
wiki again

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)

I do not think someone can deny this link



4. The Origins Ethnicity and nationality of Vlachs,

*a Vlach community according their origin may have Italian German Gaulish Celtic even Iberian, and Greek Thracian Illyrian and Slavic genetical characteristics,

*their *Ethnicity* is that of *Roman citizen* as that pass through times till the end of East Roman empire,
in their souls they remained faithfull to christianity and Roman state and language.

their modern *nationalities* are the results of modern states in Balkans after the rebbelions against Ottoman empire
and their *personal choices* according the part they choose tobelong to.
For example the MoschoVlachs of Moschopolis, 
choose the Greek identity instead of the Forced Albanian one

So *Modern Vlachs* are Greeks Romanians Albanians Montenegrins Moldovans Croatians Bosnians Serbs Bulgarians Fyrom-ians.,
*BUT as remnants* of the previous *ROMAN EMPIRE* citizenship not the ancient local populations of Balkans


*the rest are political propaganda.
No Group is better than other, and no group is mother/father of another,


*

----------


## Dumidre

> is this link ligit?
> http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm


Nationalistic propaganda...
It’s getting old already...


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## LABERIA

> your hate against Greeks is obvious in every of your posts,
> as your ignorance, and your selective chapters of ''scholars''


I don't have any idea of what are you talking.

----------


## Litovoi

> Valentinian,Sirmium's Emperor:
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0IZyTaJA04
> http://understanding-our-past.blogsp...ue-of.html?m=1
> The Romanian word for church is biserica and comes from basilica,unlike the Western European Latin countries and Greece,that have terms derived from ecclesia,pointing towards the ecclesiastical organization.
> It is very clear that this difference comes from the Romanian political and ecclesiastical autonomy, basilica obviously indicates its military origins,the only Latin text from the Balkans who contains the term comes from Sirmium,"In basilica domini nostri Erenei".
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=qSP...litary&f=false
> http://theodialogia.blogspot.ro/2013...m-and.html?m=1
> .


Another important fact is that only in Engandine-Romansch, Latin basilica became the only,main,term for church in its all meanings,since Raetia was a border region on the Danube,the military background remains the most reliable explanation.


The popular,Old Romanian, forms basearica,baseareca,come from Latin baseleca(in the types that contain i instead of e,the original vocal is coincidentally found,like the following change,L.bene,R bine),which seems to be present throughout whole Italy, not surprisingly ,since between the two prefectures,Italy and Illyricum there were very intense relations, at least,for certain periods of time.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=pav...church&f=false

https://books.google.ro/books?id=6JH...seleca&f=false

https://nap.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas...a_Lucia_a_Mare
https://nap.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas...Paola_(Napule)

----------


## Yetos

> Another important fact is that only in Engandine-Romansch, Latin basilica became the only,main,term for church in its all meanings,since Raetia was a border region on the Danube,the military background remains the most reliable explanation.
> 
> The popular,Old Romanian, forms basearica,baseareca,come from Latin baseleca,which seems to be present throughout whole Italy, not surprisingly ,since between the two prefectures,Italy and Illyricum there very intense relations, at least,for certain periods of time.
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=pav...church&f=false



an answer to your post

*The Latin word* _basilica derives from the Greek βασιλικὴ στοά (basilikè stoá), 
derives from Mycenean qa-si-re (ΒΑΣΙΛΕ-υς-BASILE-us = king, Rex)

_
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica 

The first meaning of Basilica WAS NOT CHURCH but Royal corridor, royal chamber, 
and was the homes of *ROMAN Royal courts,*
after the Mediolanum 313 AD 
the first churches were build in that style so to declare that Jesus was king.
*that made basilica synonym to a temple architectural style,
*not church, neither clerics, 

The Greek word for Temple is ναος and for church is Εκκλησια (Εκ+Κλησις= the call /of faithfull/)

Do not mix architectural style building word with temple word and church word.

that is Basilike architectural style with 3 corridors (3-5-7 max), from Royal Roman court style building


and building, 



that is Basilike μετα τρουλου ( a mix of basilike with pantheon)
A basilike with a dome









that is a temple α Naos




and that is Εκκλησια, Ecclesia church, the people gathering, not the building.



and that is κληρος a Greek word meaning Lotto, lottery winner, and hairitage, in Latin Clerici in English Ecclesiastical hair,



thank you

----------


## Bachus

> We do not have historical records about arrival of Serbs to Croatia, except a few but it's from Bosnia. 
> 
> Genetics does not show migration from eastern Hercegovina, because genetic evidence for that does not exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove this migration path with genetic data, in Montenegro also exist and Croats so it is possible that they also come to Croatia, however as I speak genetic data for that migration does not exist.
> 
> 
> ...


Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia came from eastern Herzegovina, Raška, northern and western Montenegro.
There is no Serbs from Croatia which originated from Kosovo and southern Serbia, these are fantasies.

Serbian village in Dalmatia - *Baljci* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljci
Village in eastern Herzegovina (near Bileća) - *Baljci* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljci,_Bileća

Serbian village in Dalmatia (near Knin) - *Riđane* https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riđane
Village in western Montenegro (near Nikšić) - *Riđani* https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riđani

Serbian family *Krivošija* from village Plavno near Knin in Dalmatia https://www.poreklo.rs/2012/06/04/po...in/?script=lat
Serbian tribe *Krivošija* from Old Herzegovina (modern western Montenegro) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivošije

Serbian tribe *Macure* migrated in 15th century from nothern Montenegro to Dalmatia (Bukovica)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macure 
https://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Ервен...B5%D0%BD%D0%B0

Serbian family *Rašković* from village Žagrović near Knin https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Rašković/
*​Raška* (Grand Principalityof Serbia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...lity_of_Serbia

----------


## Litovoi

Penguins, keep walking,if you wanna have some extremely specific discussions,then start another thread.

----------


## hrvat22

> Bachus





> Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia came from eastern Herzegovina, Raška, northern and western Montenegro.
> There is no Serbs from Croatia which originated from Kosovo and southern Serbia, these are fantasies.


Migration of Serbs from eastern Herzegovina, Raška, northern and western Montenegro in written historical records do not exist, if it exists it is for some local group although I do not know data neither for these local groups.




> Last name Krivošija in modern Croatia
> 
> Krivošija in Croatia is mostly Croats (from the Vinkovci region), Serbs can be equally as well as Macedonians (from Split) very rarely. In the last century, the relatively largest Croatian population with this surname was born in the town of Glina and in the vicinity of Knin.


https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Krivo%C5%A1ija/





> Last name Riđan in modern Croatia
> 
> Croats in Croatia are Croats (from the City of Sveti Ivan Zelina). In the last century, the relatively large number of Croatian inhabitants with this surname were born in the towns of Slavonski Brod and Sveti Ivan Zelina. In Bunjaku in the City of Sveti Ivan Zelina, every tenth inhabitant has last name Riđan.


https://actacroatica.com/hr/surname/Ri%C4%91an/

In Raška we also have Croats and Bosniaks. 

Around Niksic (western Montenegro) Croats have been mentioned so we do not know originally origin of these Riđani.

However for now we do not have genetic confirmation that anyone comes from that direction.





.

----------


## Litovoi

> an answer to your post


The very most of the basilica churches were actually called ecclesia,with the remainings ,resting ,under the form of some veneration places for the Catholics,so these would be literally 'inactive',it is very clear that their architecture can't be involved in this discussion.

However,both the military background and a more remote position can be claimed as the main reasons for keeping the term in Romanian and Romansch .

M.Pillon is making the same mistake,connecting the churches with basilica stlyle from the Roman-Byzantine forts ,to the Romanian word,yet,we have to consider that the Goths had been accommodated there as well,using Wullfila's term,aiklessjo.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/𐌰𐌹𐌺𐌺𐌻𐌴𐍃𐌾𐍉#Gothic

----------


## Yetos

> The very most of the basilica churches were actually called ecclesia,with the remainings ,resting ,under the form of some veneration places for the Catholics,so these would be literally 'inactive',it is very clear that their architecture can't be involved in this discussion.
> 
> However,both the military background and a more remote position can be claimed as the main reasons for keeping the term in Romanian and Romansch .
> 
> M.Pillon is making the same mistake,connecting the churches with basilica stlyle from the Roman-Byzantine forts ,to the Romanian word,yet,we have to consider that the Goths had been accommodated there as well,using Wullfila's term,aiklessjo.
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/���...��#Gothic



@Litovoi

from IE language

Greek βαινω Latin veni
Greek Βουλομαι Italian Voglio

*so if the word Basilica was Latin in origin it should be Vasilica not Basilica
*
so the word basilica is a loan from Greek to rest IE languages,
considering the qa-si-re-us which in Mycenean turns Basileus Βασιλευς
it is clear that word is Greek,

*Qa-Si-Re*-us

Qa gives words like *CRPOWN* *King* Queenn and Slavic *Kralj* (qa(si)ra-> Kra)

In Latin consider the word Regem REX etcit should be Regemi-ca or at least QasiRI-ca or consider a pre-Greek form Basiri-ca
*
so plz man.


all the bellow words 
are from Greek origin

basilica
ecclesia
cleric 
Cathedral καθ'εδρα (domain desk/seat)


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/basilica

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ecclesia

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cleric




*

----------


## Litovoi

By the way,why Constantine has said very nice things for Serdica,"is (it)my Rome"?

http://web.a.ebscohost.com/abstract?...AN%3d109311092

Can you say a few words,for the Saint George church,from Serdica?

https://www.google.ro/amp/s/wheninbu...-of-sofia/amp/

----------


## Yetos

> By the way,why Constantine has said very nice things for Serdica,"is (it)my Rome"?
> http://web.a.ebscohost.com/abstract?...AN%3d109311092
> Can you say a few words,for the Saint George church,from Serdica?
> https://www.google.ro/amp/s/wheninbu...-of-sofia/amp/



you are reffering to the 2 Celtic tribes, to some they were one, and the same cause both *Serdi* and *Scordiski* means the same,
scattered. Strandzha mountains (Μαχιας Mahias) in Bulgaria also accepted some population of them.
Possible transalpine Gauls in origin, relatives of Galates who moved to minor Asia,
correct?


*Constantine the Great was a Flavian, by his father*
their home was mainly Nis and central balkans,
where legio 4 Flavia Felix was settled,
maybe in Serdica were his favorite troops,
or the most faithfull ones to him.

----------


## Litovoi

> http://christianthinktank.com/mostlybull.html
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bubalus
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag...ms_of_Moldavia
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag...de_of_Moldavia
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=piX...sabine&f=false


Looks like Roman army standards to me,it would explain why the Moldavians are considered very virile and their women, domineering,yet,no one can beat the very expressive, extensive and extremely expansive Western Wallachian character,I'm talking here about mainstream, parade,individuals, of Latin stock,with the typical, practical ,sense that Romans had and the need to live in a very concurential environment,given automatically by this incredibly natural,native,intelligence.

https://www.google.ro/search?q=legio...HXj-BV0QrnYIGQ

https://www.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/p...m-proud-of-it/


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/buiestru

----------


## Litovoi

Let me detail one of the most interesting Western Wallachian legends,it is about a young man called Domnul de Roua(The Dew Prince,both words coming from Latin), who used to make a long journey for reaching to a beautiful lady, no other than Ler Emperor's daughter,unfortunately their love story was conditioned by the sunrise,who will eventually catch him and transform into a pond,lake,puddle.

The story leads us to another one, much more well-known, namely Aurora's tears,dropped as dew.

Certain earthly considerations can be made,Aurora was known as Ausosa,in Old Latin,clearly both linked to Ausones and their Mater Matuta,a notorious godess from Campania and Volscia,while Ler Imparat is usually identified either as Galerius or Aurelian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos



https://books.google.ro/books?id=wzg...%20dew&f=false


https://www.christopherculver.com/la...-urheimat.html

----------


## Litovoi

Matuta's etymology,that implies the daily cycle, can be easily compared to the Romanian legend too, it's basically about the same motifs as these Campanian and Western Wallachian dances,with the spinning sun,assuring any kind of activity and order,especially of the developed,agricultural,societies.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Matuta#Latin


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf3203SRn_I

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mane#Latin

Watch the circles spinning into the opposite directions in both dances:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cIWhOjtypvU

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mater-Matuta#ref968196

A modern Matralia:

https://www.google.ro/amp/s/madeintr...nd-legend/amp/

"before leaving for the montains,which take place at around 4 in the morning"

"around the feast of St Elijah"

----------


## Litovoi

And all of these also involve the confounding of two IE senses:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...ropean/meh₂-

----------


## Litovoi

EDIT:
In Western Wallachia we usually stay extremely close only to the natural girls,who don't afraid to be extremely proud of their status,with a very loud and melodic voice:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DLMtXtntYW0


Look,she says nazionale with a schwa at the end,just like in Romanian;when I walked on the street, it was these kind of girls that twisted their heads all the time,my father asked me if I want something for turning 18,I said to him,"buy me the nicest suite and shoes ever","why?",he continues,"because I'm good",I answered,what I can guarantee, Is that the clothes did worth every penny.

----------


## Litovoi

Ler(leru-i ler,for instance) is also a very common formula for Christmas carols,it could be related to Roman Lares,if we are adding the Wallachian legend,another influence could have come from Sol Invictus.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=d9v...0carol&f=false

https://books.google.ro/books?id=vvJ...0carol&f=false
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...ancient-world/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares

One of the Ler Emperor's daughter is an aquatic fairy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larunda

----------


## Litovoi

"Leru-i ler si flori de mar", says one carol,which means " Ler is Ler and apple flowers ",so the Roman deities seem to be involved here,providing fruit cornucopia.

https://romanpagan.wordpress.com/lares/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJCb_w78hg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larentalia

----------


## Litovoi

Ler Imparat is named the Emperor of the World,he is gifted with all the moral qualities,another information, is said to come from the east.

----------


## Litovoi

Two important words that Romanian-Aromanian shares with Albanian and Serbo-Croatian,both pertaining to the marshlands:
Romanian rata,Albanian rose,Serbo-Croatian raca,from Latin Anas,Anatea,cf. Wallachian dialectal form nata,with the usual n- r rhotacism, L fenestra,R fereastra.


I will add here words developed under this similar pattern:
Latin Aranea,Romanian raie
Latin Amurca,Romanian murg.


R. balaur,S-C blavor,A buljar,surely from a form of Latin beluaria,namely belluaria,because the single l would have disappeared(for the geminated,see L callis,R cale).



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/anas#Latin


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/belua


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bellua#Latin


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaur

----------


## Litovoi

The French word belluaire ,a beastmaster gladiator,coming from the prisoners of war,speaks about what happened in the Roman cities from the Danube,they would have eventually reached,for example,in Viminacium, Moesia Superior's capital.

https://fr.vikidia.org/wiki/Belluaire

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/belluaire#French

from16:18


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XVH8a5ftY

----------


## Litovoi

Latin sera ,Romanian seara

examples of the ea diphthong from other Latin languages:

dopo di Meassa(instead of Messa),says the old man

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VdfpomAMDjU

https://books.google.ro/books?id=XZA...g%20ea&f=false


I wonder if the diphthongation was triggered by the IE substratum or it was just an internal development?

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/measa


http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_6.html

----------


## Litovoi

> two important words that romanian-aromanian shares with albanian and serbo-croatian,both pertaining to the marshlands:
> Romanian rata,albanian rose,serbo-croatian raca,from latin anas,anatea,cf. Wallachian dialectal form nata,with the usual n- r rhotacism, l fenestra,r fereastra.
> I will add here words developed under this similar pattern:
> Latin aranea,romanian raie
> latin amurca,romanian murg.
> R. Balaur,s-c blavor,a buljar,surely from a form of latin beluaria,namely belluaria,because the single l would have disappeared(for the geminated,see l callis,r cale).
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/anas#latin
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/belua
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bellua#latin
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/balaur


important content
In Vulgar Latin,the Greek borrowings have sounded unnatural for many times, with their typical prothetic vowels,that's why in lots of cases these will eventually disappear.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/amurca#Latin


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aranea


The same phonological character has been preserved in two placenames from the Danube area,namely the Motru river and Procopius' Motreses,having a Roman Dacia toponym as their origin,called Amutria.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amutria

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motru_River


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html

----------


## Litovoi

Motreses was located near Diana -Zanes and it was connected to Dacia's Amutria through the Trajan's Bridge,regardless of the pronunciation of z(z or dz),it clearly attests a specific phonological development within Romanian,the same can be said for Dierna-Zernes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Fortress

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kladovo

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Diana


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voic...olar_affricate

----------


## Litovoi

https://books.google.ro/books?id=zEB...0latin&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

Having two words for scabies,raie and zgaiba ,automatically implies a crowded environment.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/scabies

https://www.healthline.com/health/scabies-bites

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...er-sex/scabies

----------


## JajarBingan

Wallach is just the Germanic name for the Romance speaking population of the Balkans, which was later adapted in Slavic languages as Vlach. During the Iron Age, that included the Romance speaking Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and what not. All modern people from the Balkans probably have some Vlach in them. Maybe that's the much needed element that will help achieve reconciliation in this corner of Europe  :Laughing: 

Romanians descend from Vlachs, some of whom were native to present day Romania, some who migrated from the South due to Slavic pressure, Cumans, Pechenegs and Slavs.

----------


## JajarBingan

> E-V13 scores more than 20% in the Western Wallachia, 2 samples from Martinez-Cruz and one from Cruciani 2004,while,for example, Cluj(M-C) and Ploiesti(Bosch) have this figure.
> That's why I2a and even R1a are directly related to E-V13,within the Romanian-Vlach populations.
> These haplogroups,no matter the origins,must be connected to certain ethnic,cultural ,realities,otherwise we gonna use mathematics/tables much more than law allows it to reach the same senseless results,"we are all from Africa" or "let me do a DNA test,then we talk about Renfrew or Anthony".
> Connections between the Romanian-Vlach Y-DNA and autosomes were targeted by these two studies, Schmidt-Hoeckenbeck,"Genetic Studies in South Balkan Populations" and Bosch,Paternal and maternal...Aromuns",because,although we don't know if these share their samples,the same locations are being used,Ploiesti and Constanta,for the Romanians,Andon Poci,Kogalniceanu,Stip etc,for the Aromanians.


About the regional breakdown of haplogroups in Romania, see the 2nd sheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

----------


## LABERIA

> Having two words for scabies,raie and *zgaiba* ,automatically implies a crowded environment.
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/scabies
> 
> https://www.healthline.com/health/scabies-bites
> 
> https://www.plannedparenthood.org/le...er-sex/scabies


In Albanian we say z*gj*ebe. 
⟨*gj*⟩ is used in the Albanian alphabet for the voiced palatal plosive /ɟ/, though for Gheg speakers it represents /dʒ/. In the Arbëresh dialect, it represents the voiced velar plosive /ɡʲ/.

----------


## Litovoi

About Sarmatians,Chernyakhov and Szeklers,about to say nighty-night:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDg86QM5-jk

----------


## Litovoi

"Thus,the sense" to earn,to win" from Wallachia and Moldavia represents an innovation as against to "take care,guard" of the Latin castigare,which is preserved in the other Romanian dialects"(V.Fratila)

Facts(reality)

Actually the two senses come directly from Latin,it is clearly about separate developments,that I will easily explain.

The first,to win,has to be linked to both the Roman Army punishment called castigatio,particularly ,and,naturally with the other senses preserved in Romance,while "to earn" must be connected to the third meaning of the Latin root "to correct, to amend", that obviously leads us to the financial field,since we do have the Old Spanish castigar(to advise).

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/castigo#Latin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma...nd_punishments

https://books.google.ro/books?id=_Qk...tigare&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castigat_ridendo_mores

----------


## Litovoi

The association castigo-to earn is related with moneo(to admonish),from which Latin moneta originates,and implies minting process, since Juno Moneta had the following epithet: the Admonisher.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=EjX...nisher&f=false


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/moneta#Latin



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/moneo#Latin


http://tjbuggey.ancients.info/mints.html

----------


## Litovoi

We encounter ,again ,a Spanish term,munir,that refers to arranging a matter of business.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/muñir#Spanish

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Argentaria

----------


## Litovoi

Saint Demeter's Fire,Sumedru:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ytohGSyv8Ug

It's a celebration where people are offering fruits,what makes this even more interesting ,the fact that Saint Demeter is the shepherds' protector and Latin fructus switched its sense in Romanian,I mean the term frupt refers especially to sheep products,dairy, and to non-fasting,seems a symbiosis between the worship of the Roman Pomona and Indo-European cults like Samhain.

http://en.povestidecalatorie.ro/the-...000-years-old/

https://www.romania-insider.com/sumd...t-dumitru/amp/

http://goddesschess.blogspot.ro/2007...omona.html?m=1

http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/pomona.php

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/frupt

Sumedru and other traditions from my father's village(Raul Doamnei area,the Wallachian core,firstly attested in the14th c.):

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...Pje_cpmjHB50zT

----------


## Ygorcs

About Vlachs and their relationship to Romanans, has any extensive genetic study been made to try to give another clue, one from the point of view population genetics, and not just from of historical linguistics', about the still widely discusse issue of the territorial origin of Proto-Romanian speakers? I find the evidences pointing out to an origin in the Central Balkans, a bit west and south of present-day Romania, quite overwhelming, and of course the still extant Vlach, Arumanian-speaking population there, near the supposed homeland, could give us good indications of the real historic past of the Romanian people.

----------


## Litovoi

https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=117874

----------


## Litovoi

The old man proudly and sprightly dances Calus,literally The Little Horse,obviously coming from the Danubian Knights,Thracian Horsemen, Epona and her Getic counterpart,easily to be recognized on the Rogozen Treasure,what makes these artefacts even more important are the depictions of certain Goddess riding,surrounded by the Romanian dragon,the balaur,who must have been originally a water dragon-snake,as the Latin belluaria and the Albanian meanings suggests, that got diversified,note the wolf and horse heads added on the golden items.

https://www.britannica.com/art/Morris-dance

http://www.sourcememory.net/art/thrace/goddesses.html

https://atlanticreligion.com/tag/danubian-horsemen/


https://books.google.ro/books?id=pok...onster&f=false


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaur

----------


## Litovoi

http://apologetic.blog.bg/hobi/2017/...lochki.1500070

Horse-headed monsters also exists in the Celtic folklore, for example,Each Uisge,that has the den into the Black River.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Each-uisge

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

Letnitsa(the girl seem Dinaric,like other precious Thracians,with the same honour,boldness and anthropological traits to be found on the Vinca terracotta figurines )

http://www.sourcememory.net/art/thrace/plaque.png

A little bit off-topic here,it seems that Blagotin has an original way of showing his love towards certain...people,I mean the words don't seem to count that much anymore, and if you eventually decide to use them,you have the same result.

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.r...gotin.html?m=1

https://natalijastojanovic.weebly.co...strations.html

----------


## Ownstyler

> About Vlachs and their relationship to Romanans, has any extensive genetic study been made to try to give another clue, one from the point of view population genetics, and not just from of historical linguistics', about the still widely discusse issue of the territorial origin of Proto-Romanian speakers? I find the evidences pointing out to an origin in the Central Balkans, a bit west and south of present-day Romania, quite overwhelming, and of course the still extant Vlach, Arumanian-speaking population there, near the supposed homeland, could give us good indications of the real historic past of the Romanian people.


Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.

----------


## Ygorcs

> Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.


Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a different task, indeed. Not only were the original Romanized Balkanic peoples that eventually became Romanians and Vlachs a very diverse number of tribes that were unified politically and culturally by Rome, but also since then they have been shaken back and forth and assimilated and got assimilated by others during and after so many invasions and migrations from the north and the east to the Balkans. Any significant genetic imprint of a definite "Proto-Romanian" population in the medieval Balkans must've been almost completely erased or leveled out through admixture with other peoples that were already more or less similar - and also similarly heterogeneous. I think this issue of Romanian's origins will have to be answered mostly through linguistics, indeed.

----------


## Litovoi

Calus leaps definitely sounds like Salli,it can be also connected to Thracian Cabeiri.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=DMG...0dance&f=false

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...fzwASkA1sIOzDE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salii

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabeiri
Western Wallachian version,no need to bother with slow motions here,because even these ones can be surprising:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VM7lTvNWH8o

Now you can clearly understand why I'm not a big fan of mumbling,the speech has to be naturally fluid, with no supplementary efforts,because communication remains the main factor of our society,that's why we have places like Surdul(the Deaf)or Mutu(self explanatory),if you can't meet the stardands,the irony inevitably comes,sometimes uninvited.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdul


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm

----------


## Dumidre

> Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a different task, indeed. Not only were the original Romanized Balkanic peoples that eventually became Romanians and Vlachs a very diverse number of tribes that were unified politically and culturally by Rome, but also since then they have been shaken back and forth and assimilated and got assimilated by others during and after so many invasions and migrations from the north and the east to the Balkans. Any significant genetic imprint of a definite "Proto-Romanian" population in the medieval Balkans must've been almost completely erased or leveled out through admixture with other peoples that were already more or less similar - and also similarly heterogeneous. I think this issue of Romanian's origins will have to be answered mostly through linguistics, indeed.


The issue is with people trying to define and label, actually... the Romanians (Vlachs) are just who they are: Inhabitants of a vast region around the Danube River... our customs agree... our genetics agree... :)

----------


## Litovoi

The compact,larger,standard village called sat
comes from fossatus,fossatum and satum,with additional meanings that obviously imply agriculture, such as "a field,plain etc.",while the isolated catun is a group of houses,usually surrounded by the forests or mountains,the word also applies to clearings,thickets and small woods ,definitely related to cantone.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=EL9...20term&f=false


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/satus



https://www.etymonline.com/word/canton

----------


## Litovoi

"In the fifth and sixth centuries,fossatum meant military camp..."


That's not the point,both Sacromontisi and
Fossatisii must involve geographical differentiation,otherwise the first term would have been useless, compared to the second one.Naturally, the vice-versa is also valid,so the word Fossatisii has to be connected with the senses of the above link.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=CrU...rdanes&f=false


Ctrl+F:five days


https://erenow.com/ancient/the-fall-...barians/7.html

----------


## Litovoi

The Fossatisii were mainly lowlanders or lowland-based groups from the first line of defense-the Danube frontier,apart of the more in depth Sacromontisi that held the mountain (possibly Haemus)passes .


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defe...oman_military)

----------


## LABERIA

> The Fossatisii were mainly lowlanders or lowland-based groups


There are two words in Albanian for village, _fshat_ and _katund_. Probably fshat is from fossatum.

----------


## DuPidh

> Since Vlachs are Latin speaking people of different acnestries all over the Balkans, I really don't know how you can find a genetic relationship between them and anyone else, because they would not have a clearly recognizable genetic profile.


In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population

----------


## Litovoi

"I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
(prof. Luan Topciu)

----------


## Litovoi

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fv76X229KX0

----------


## Ownstyler

> In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population


And even if they are distinct from the population around them, are they similar to Vlachs in Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, etc? That's why I was saying that you can't have them as just one group, but maybe as several. 

The intermarriages are a different issue, and in any case until the Ottomans there weren't religious differences and nationalism only became relevant by the 18-19 centuries. Even in the last two centuries there have been "intermarriages", although rare. But, as I said, my point was not that Vlachs are mixed with different populations (although they most probably are), but that they ARE different populations. They are Latinized Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks, Dacians, etc. The Vlachs in Albania are probably genetically different from the ones in Romania. Those are different from the ones in Greece, and so on. So it doesn't make sense to put them in one group.

----------


## LABERIA

> In Albania at least they live in a number of separate villages inhabited 100% by Vlahs. The intermarriages with local Albanians were non existing because of nationality and religion. So still in these pockets could be extracted genetic data. To my opinion they show higher Slavic resemblance than local population


Not exactly. Many Vlachs live in the cities. All old Vlach families living in cities claim to have originated from Voskopoja. Sounds a little bit exaggerated to be honest. They despise a little those Vlachs who live in the villages. There are intermarriages with Albanians. 
It`s hard to distinguish a Vlach from an Albanian. We can recognise some of them because usually Vlachs are more swarthy than Albanians. Also when they speak, some of them use this guttural consonant R. Also we can recognise some of them from their surnames.
And finally, it is not that there are so many Vlachs in Albania.

----------


## LABERIA

> "I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
> Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
> For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
> Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
> (prof. Luan Topciu)


I don`t know if Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.
The reason why the word dashuri=love it is not used by Arberesh is because the Arberesh dialect from one side have preserved some archaich forms but from the other side they have lost many words due to the preassure of the Italian language. Of course Albanian dialects spoken in Albania are more elaborate meanwhile the dialects spoken in diaspora, including Arbereshe dialects are more simplistic. 
Also we use thew word mall. From the dictionary Albanian-Albanian:
MALL I m. :



> Dhembje e thellë shpirtërore e trishtim që ndjejmë për dikë a për diçka që ndodhet larg nesh; dëshirë e fortë për t'u kthyer përsëri në një vend që s'e harrojmë kurrë, për të takuar një njeri të dashur që është larguar, për të rijetuar edhe një herë si dikur ose për t'u marrë përsëri me diçka që na ka pëlqyer shumë.


Gg translator:



> The deep spiritual sorrow and sadness we feel for someone or something that is far from us; strong desire to return to a place we will never forget to meet a loved one who has left, to go back to once again or to take back something that has very liked.


It is a word that has many meanings and serves as a root for many other words. For example: 
MALLËNGJIM m. sh.=movingly.
http://www.fjalorshqip.com/

----------


## Nik

> "I believe that these peoples,Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.My feeling is that,before the Latins ,a typical term had existed,who was replaced later,because semantically they are so close.
> Analyzing the word,I find some senses that are not present in the Albanian literary language,but only in the Arbereshe dialect from Italy.
> For example,we don't find there dashuri,that,in Albanian,means love,but mall.
> Mall is love,very interesting,that is,dor,pain,bad."
> (prof. Luan Topciu)


Arbereshe do use the word dashuri. I'll find some songs and send them to you if you want. 

As for the word "dor", seems like a typical transformation the Albanian language would do to the Latin word "dolor", Italian "dolore".

----------


## Litovoi

An Italian,walking through the Romanian provinces in the 16th c. ,observes the difference between the"sweet,fine" Moldavian speech and the endeavouring, guts, Western Wallachian one, described as "harsh sincerity".

After all,it is a matter of inherited mentality here,because we see the Wallachians creating,reviving, a state,called The Second Bulgarian Empire.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8BpE5PeyrFI

----------


## Litovoi

Yeah,you heard well,Bulgarians.
If I were you,I'd pay attention to the most Romanized Vlachs,because,when the stakes are very high,believe me,people can be extremely unpredictable.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=My06Za8cVT8

----------


## Litovoi

I have been searching for Wallachian influences in many parts of Serbia,Montenegro or Albania,but I got nothing,so far I have found only these two clips that worth mentioning.

The singer is called Rayna and cames from Sandanski,Pirin mountains,actually ,what has attracted my attention was the girl that performs the dance,because I recognize here some Wallachian patterns: a certain naturalness and even a bit of typical sensitivity in her behavior,plus the easiness and lightness of the movements.Wallachianization is also present in the form of a specific stance of "technical princess ",she also sends some clear,unsthealthy,Muntenian signals,by trampling a bit.However, the similarities stop here,not to mention that there are many differences.

Historical context:during the Second Bulgarian Empire,the rulers of the state have used Wallachian troops in many military activities,from guarding mountains and frontiers or battles,campaigns.
Although the remaining Wallachians would have been assimilated, some of the influences have been preserved,especially into the highlands.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_c0KvsVBvs8


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandanski


https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9n...lgaria&f=false

----------


## Litovoi

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayna

----------


## Litovoi

Another interesting character from the same region,the football player Dimitar Berbatov,his name is Romanian,that is, Barbat,a man,from Latin barba.

Berbatov's name can be ultimately related to the Wallachian military nobility, since in the list of the earliest recorded rulers we do find Barbat,Litovoi's brother,helding the biggest domain that stretched on both sides of the Carpathians, with Hateg for sure included.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitar_Berbatov

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat_(voievod)

Berbatov's father,Ivan(on the left side)


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/...99_308x185.jpg

----------


## Litovoi

Apart from Asens,another important clue that the Cumans were quickly assimilated by the Vlachs is Belaur's name,definitely coming from the Romanian- inherited Balaur,a common name even today,related to Albanian Bolla,Bullar.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belaur



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaur


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolla

----------


## eastara

> Another interesting character from the same region,the football player Dimitar Berbatov,his name is Romanian,that is, Barbat,a man,from Latin barba.
> 
> Berbatov's name can be ultimately related to the Wallachian military nobility, since in the list of the earliest recorded rulers we do find Barbat,Litovoi's brother,helding the biggest domain that stretched on both sides of the Carpathians, with Hateg for sure included.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitar_Berbatov
> 
> https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat_(voievod)
> 
> Berbatov's father,Ivan(on the left side)
> ...


Wishful thinking, Berbatov's family name most likely comes from the Turkish Berbat, which means awful, hellish, etc. Probably this was his greatgrandfather's nickname, which turned into a surname. Bulgarians did not have official surnames during Ottoman times, some invented one after a nickname or profession, when Bulgaria became independent in 1878, but most used their grandfather's Christian name.

----------


## Litovoi

> Wishful thinking, Berbatov's family name most likely comes from the Turkish Berbat, which means awful, hellish, etc. Probably this was his greatgrandfather's nickname, which turned into a surname. Bulgarians did not have official surnames during Ottoman times, some invented one after a nickname or profession, when Bulgaria became independent in 1878, but most used their grandfather's Christian name.


Wishful Thinking,two different words with the same form are not a 100% match,for instance,in Romanian we do have a mare,that's what we call the sea,and another one that means important, great,big;clearly two different things,etymologies.

Another issue here is corruption,contamination,the less used term will copy or borrow from the form of the more popular and quite similar one.

For example,the marginal buar,a bison,auroch,gets contaminated with bou,a bull,resulting bour.

Buala,related to Albanian buall, is more often written boala,which is the term for illness.

Do I have to say that, to complete the math,you have to respond to the other post(Bela+ur)as well?

EDIT:

Don't use this tone with me,you little squirrel...

----------


## Litovoi

Actually, there was an Italian linguist, probably a penguin with hat and a bowtie,who wanted to bring us closer,to the Adriatic,claiming that mare,which is,great,large,big,comes from the word for sea,Bartoli,if I recall, but it surely wasn't true,that's why it is very important how you say it,Wishful Thinking.

Procopius lists Mareburgu(The Big Fortress) near Pontes,Iron Gates,to be compared with Burgualtu(High Fortress).

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html

----------


## eastara

> Wishful Thinking,two different words with the same form are not a 100% match,for instance,in Romanian we do have a mare,that's what we call the sea,and another one that means important, great,big;clearly two different things,etymologies.
> 
> Another issue here is corruption,contamination,the less used term will copy or borrow from the form of the more popular and quite similar one.
> 
> For example,the marginal buar,a bison,auroch,gets contaminated with bou,a bull,resulting bour.
> 
> Buala,related to Albanian buall, is more often written boala,which is the term for illness.
> 
> Do I have to say that, to complete the math,you have to respond to the other post(Bela+ur)as well?
> ...


I would advise you not to use in your linguistic exercises Bulgarian surnames, the etymology of which you don't know anything about.
And yes, a huge proportion of Bulgarian surnames have Turkish origin. For example most professions during Ottoman times had official Turkish or other non Slavic names and this is mirrored in the surnames. Bulgarian government in the 1930th even tried to make people with Turkish sounding surnames to change them to the common Christian names derived. Sound familiar on the Balkans, eh?

----------


## Angela

What is it with some Balkan men that they can't speak respectfully to other people and particularly to women? That's two today.

----------


## Litovoi

I have found some interesting legends,that seem to correspond to a certain degree,the Albanian Constantine and Doruntine,Dhoqina,and the Romanian Dochia,there are,however,some significant differences to be spotted here,while the first has the Besa as one of the main motifs,making from the young lady character ,a simple object,the second looks to me like the typical Southern European woman response,"I don't wanna,I don't wanna!",with the usual increasing volume and other accessories,because that's her businesses, to be quite of a subject.


http://www.albanianliterature.net/or.../verse_04.html


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Dochia

----------


## Litovoi

The actual story of the young Dochia dates from the early 19th and it represents the modification made by the author after he has picked it from a shepherd,in the original version,that has survived in Bucovina,Decebalus' sister was a simple shepherdess who had been continously and desperately running from marrying an Emperor.

----------


## Litovoi

> It's crazy how much Albanians and Romanians have in common and it's obvious that the 2 peoples lived in such close proximity but later got more and more apart as both lost territories and part of their people to Slavic assimilation.


It's not, if you have certain purposes, nothing philosophically here,just my wishes and eagerness of how to express this energy.


I remember when my father was putting me on the wheel, you instantly feel that this is it,and after listening just a part of the indications,I instantly propelled the car into the closest fir trees;then,my father got extremelly angry ,relentlessly yelling and gesticulating very intimidating, but he quickly understood that he's not going to get the car that soon,although at the age of 12-13,the initiative can work tremendously.


The will was so uncontrollable, plus ,I had to demonstrate now to my father that I can do this,but the thing is,it wasn't just about driving a car,because it had to accelerate extremely and feel all that speed,however,no matter how keen 
I was trying to be,the result was the same,on and on-the fir trees;when the ambition is great,you can repeat this process for a long time,again,nothing philosophically here.


It is clearly very nice to see this Albanian video,in the spirit that we also appreciate so much,especially in Western Wallachia,many times,with the same risks,same results:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pP9B2Zise4

----------


## Lenab

> Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia came from eastern Herzegovina, Raška, northern and western Montenegro.
> There is no Serbs from Croatia which originated from Kosovo and southern Serbia, these are fantasies.
> 
> Serbian village in Dalmatia - *Baljci* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljci
> Village in eastern Herzegovina (near Bileća) - *Baljci* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljci,_Bileća
> 
> Serbian village in Dalmatia (near Knin) - *Riđane* https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riđane
> Village in western Montenegro (near Nikšić) - *Riđani* https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riđani
> 
> ...


I find it interesting how Southern Serbians from Montenegrin are the tallest in Europe along with the Dutch. I think that I must be a very isolated haplogroup in it's general spread throughout North and South East Europe. 

Croats got Catholicity as a cultural identity. Really there is hardly much genetic difference between being Croatian and Serb

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> I find it interesting how Southern Serbians from Montenegrin are the tallest in Europe along with the Dutch. I think that I must be a very isolated haplogroup in it's general spread throughout North and South East Europe. 
> 
> Croats got Catholicity as a cultural identity. Really there is hardly much genetic difference between being Croatian and Serb


 Montenegrin's are 200000 thousand people mostly with Albanian ancestry,. So are the southern Serbs. So that funny tall haplogroup is Albanians from Kosovo

----------


## Lenab

> Montenegrin's are 200000 thousand people mostly with Albanian ancestry,. So are the southern Serbs. So that funny tall haplogroup is Albanians from Kosovo


What's this? There is so such thing as Serbian race Serbians are Alpines Pontids Dinarics actually Dinarics are very frequent in Serbians. I have two Serbian friends one is very blonde with blue eyes and one is Dinaric with dark eyes

Same with Albanians Albanians can have Illyrians like relations to Serbians who were original Illyrians like North Albanians. South Albanian have much Greek colonies also. 

Also South Serbians are Mediterranean Montenegrin are Pontids usually. Serbians do not descent from Albanians more like Albanians descent from Serbians among other things.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In my opinion,made,that means great,large,big,important,

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> In my opinion,mare,that means great,large,big,important,


comes from the Latin maior,maiores,proved by the following expression ,fata mare,a virgin,literally, 'big girl',with the initial meaning making even more sense(see the Romance words),an adult young lady.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

mare is the word

----------


## Salento

C’è una marea di gente. There is a lot of people.
Sei in un mare di guai. You’re in a world/a-lot of trouble.
Ho un mare di cose da fare. I have tons of things to do.

Mare: Ocean or Sea.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> C’è una marea di gente. There is a lot of people.
> Sei in un mare di guai. You’re in a world/a-lot of trouble.
> Ho un mare di cose da fare. I have tons of things to do.
> Mare: Ocean or Sea.


It just can't be,because the Romanian term is related to the Dalmatian maur,who,according to Wiktionary, comes from maior,with the loss of the Latin diphthong au,pretty common in Romance.
Latin Augustus,populary Romanian agust.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

It's definitely the time to speak about the ancient Balkanics,like the Thracians or Illyrians,since they seem to be some of the real artisans that have built and cemented the base of what'll become the modern mankind,right from their home,the land between the Black Sea and Adriatic.

I will present here certain interesting connections between these peoples and some quite similar, from other corners of Europe.
Etruskisch.de lists terms like marish(boy,youth,bridegroom), obviously related to Romanian mire(husband,bridegroom),another clear link, thuta(chaste,married only once),with the Illyrian Teuta,possibly an epithet, because she was in the middle of the action,only after the death of her husband.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Etruscan king Mezentius has already been associated with the Messapic Menzana,since the two also refer to Jupiter,but his story clearly indicates that he was a horseman hero,very similar to the Thracian one,called Mezenai,terms that have survived in Albanian(mez) and Romanian (manz),designating the foal,colt.

----------


## zanipolo

> C’è una marea di gente. There is a lot of people.
> Sei in un mare di guai. You’re in a world/a-lot of trouble.
> Ho un mare di cose da fare. I have tons of things to do.
> 
> Mare: Ocean or Sea.


in north italy

from Piedmont: mi (I) ël/el pare (the father) la mare (the mother) ël/el mar (the sea)

pare and mare same as piedmont in veneto, maybe all north-italy

----------


## Salento

> The Etruscan king Mezentius has already been associated with the Messapic Menzana,since the two also refer to Jupiter,but his story clearly indicates that he was a horseman hero,very similar to the Thracian one,called Mezenai,terms that have survived in Albanian(mez) and Romanian (manz),designating the foal,colt.


I don’t mean to intrude but I come from the land of the Messapi. The word Menzana is a very old word rarely used today but I remember my grandfather telling me to go and fill up the Menzana..it was a metal container that he used to fill with water.

La menza e Giove (Jupiter) Menzana
http://www.fondazioneterradotranto.i...le-dalla-rete/

----------


## Yetos

Mara in Some Aromanian also means Widow,
Woman of Death.
Femme Fatale
sometimes you it Mora

while Mareta Marete may means the Bride,

----------


## LABERIA

> I don’t mean to intrude but I come from the land of the Messapi. The word Menzana is a very old word rarely used today but I remember my grandfather telling me to go and fill up the Menzana..it was a metal container that he used to fill with water.
> 
> La menza e Giove (Jupiter) Menzana
> http://www.fondazioneterradotranto.i...le-dalla-rete/


But you have also the word manze, for calf.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I don’t mean to intrude but I come from the land of the Messapi. The word Menzana is a very old word rarely used today but I remember my grandfather telling me to go and fill up the Menzana..it was a metal container that he used to fill with water.


You are obviously involving the fertility rite here,because the Thracian horseman was also called Pyrmerulas,that is,the Big Maize.


http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_4d.html

----------


## Salento

> But you have also the word manze, for calf.


Manzaro In my dialect means “Ram”, the Big Boy of the sheep. It’s also used as “Idiot”. (Montone in Italian)
Menza In my dialect also means “Half”.
Calf is Vitello, Manzo is a bit Older.
King Menzana of the Messapi and the menzana ( pict.. at the top) is the-same word. :)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

About the connections between the Romanians and Albanians

Although all the Romanian-Vlach dialects share a very consistent number of both Latin and Paleo-Balkanic elements with Albanian,there are clear differences among them,in this respect,automatically implying the fact that the major events from South Eastern Europe,such as the Slavic migration,who have triggered certain movements of the natives,represent the main cause.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In other words,it was the Slavic migration that have intensified the relations between the Romanians-Vlachs and Albanians,proved by certain linguistic differences, indicating various degrees of contact.

Th. Capidan mentions over 60 Latin words that 
exist only in Daco-Romanian and Albanian,without being present in Aromanian;

another thing here,the suffix '-za',appears less in the last language

Daco-Romanian ,Aromanian pupaza,Albanian pupeze

Daco-Romanian cinteza,Aromanian ciona,both,kind of birds

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The stronger Albanian contacts also suggests that the majority of the Vlachs were of Daco-Romanian type,playing the role of the catalyst between the non-Greek natives.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> But you have also the word manze, for calf.


But they also have users like Sile-Zanipolo,who has constantly tried to present solid arguments.

In fact,the great majority of Italians from both Italy and America act just the same.
This user seem to exhibit the typical Italian dignity,making no compromises in this respect.

http://researchomnia.blogspot.ro/201...matia.html?m=1

These are the Istro-Romanians,they were used to be called Morlachs ,while the today's language is heavily influenced by Serbo-Croatian,the Latin words resemble strikingly the Daco-Romanian speech.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OPkZGMNAljU

Bacchus came up with this link,but he believed,like others, that the Istro-Romanians are also called Cici.

It is not true,Cici are Istro-Romanized Aromanians,named Cincari or Tsintsari by some other Balkan groups.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Aromanian doesn't have the generalized n-r rhotacism,that is present in Istro-Romanian some of the Daco-Romanian dialects,and today's neighbouring Tosk Albanian.

This linguistical element is probably really old,see the alternation napus-rapus in the IE.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/napus


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ῥάπυς

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the remote regions that were extremely hard to control and defend,the Eastern Romans,Byzantines,granted full autonomy to the local lords and more precisely, to their communities,an example of this practice comes from Justinian,who recognizes the Aquae's self-government,in Dacia Ripensis.


This process has its roots in the Roman defensive strategies, starting with the division of the Empire,and the creation of the prefectures,it basically was much more than a simple regionalization, but the acknowledgement that every region "deserves a special treatment".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

These facts imply the existence of fully autonomous rulers,called Judikes,in Sardinian,the same with the Romanian Jude,coming from Latin iudex,defending border domains in the very pressured regions,known later as giudicati or judete.

Another particularity here,these lands belonged to certain communities that had a clearly different ethnic origin,culture,language, than the Byzantines-Greeks,proved by the partial overlap between the Jude/judikes and the Archon.

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stor...egna_giudicale


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giudicati

https://www.google.ro/amp/s/albertom...-medioevo/amp/

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giud...ella_Sardegna)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Old Romanian spelling,giude and giudet.

Another interesting connection, the Sardinian Church was for centuries independent "from both the Byzantine and the Roman Curia", while the Romanian term biserica doesn't come from ecclesia.

----------


## nothingfail

You are forgetting BuLGarians/ BuRGarians (also known as FYROMacedonians) who coincide with Northern Greeks in 96%, Romanians in 92%, Albanians in 85%, Moldovans and Gagauz in 78%, Greeks (as a whole) in 77%, Ukrainians (the true Old Russians) , where Old Great BuLGaria/ BuRGaria was prior to 681, and Sardenians in 60%, Kazan Tatars (Volga BuLGars?) in 31%, Great-Russians (Muscovites) in 30% according to Eupedia s Y DNA correlation!!! It turns out BuLGarians and Romanians are nearly identical, similatity with Albanians is too big, too, and Moldova, Romania, Albania and Northern Greece have all been part of the BuLGarian state in the middle ages. It turns out then the First People in South East Europe around the Black Sea, The Thracians (incl. Ancient Macedonians and Pelasgians), the Sklaveni/ Sclavus (Slavs) and BuLGars/ BuRGars more or less were the same people under various cultural impact. There is no unconditional proof the Slavs have come from the North instead of went North and about the BuLGars - that they have come from Asia, instead of went to Asia.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Arbereshe do use the word dashuri. I'll find some songs and send them to you if you want. 
> As for the word "dor", seems like a typical transformation the Albanian language would do to the Latin word "dolor", Italian "dolore".



Dor (Latin dolus)can't come from Albanian, because this language doesn't have the l-r rhotacism


Latin palumbus,Albanian pellumb,Romanian porumb,porumbel


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dolus

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhot...(sound_change)


Edit


From which part of Bulgaria are you Nik,Skopje,Ohrid?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The same for Dalmatian,

Latin gelu,gelus,Dalmatian gheluat

Latin caelum,Dalmatian cil

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Links for the first posts

http://difusion.ulb.ac.be/vufind/Rec...013/167398/TOC

http://www.etruskisch.de/pgs/vc.htm


Nesko,neskoa from the Ezerevo ring can be translated either using the following IE root ,nek,which is the source for the Latin noxa,or,more likely related to the Proto-Basque nes-ka(girl,unmarried young woman),Basque neska,nexka(servant girl,maiden),knowing the Thracian custom to sacrifice women,especially at important burials.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...uropean/neḱ-


Search for Nescato:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://aplaceofbrightness.blogspot.r...-ring.html?m=1

----------


## Bachus

> The same for Dalmatian,
> 
> Latin gelu,gelus,Dalmatian gheluat
> 
> Latin caelum,Dalmatian cil
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language



Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, unlike Romanian, Aromanian and Istro-Romanian which are eastern Romance languages.

Speakers of Dalmatian language were not Vlachs. They were at the high at high degree of cultural development and they were urban population which lived in coastal cities of eastern Adriatic. 
Unlike Dalmatin Romance people Vlachs were sheperds from central, southern and eastern Balkans.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I don`t know if Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.
> The reason why the word dashuri=love it is not used by Arberesh is because the Arberesh dialect from one side have preserved some archaich forms but from the other side they have lost many words due to the preassure of the Italian language. Of course Albanian dialects spoken in Albania are more elaborate meanwhile the dialects spoken in diaspora, including Arbereshe dialects are more simplistic. 
> Also we use thew word mall. From the dictionary Albanian-Albanian:
> MALL I m. :
> Gg translator:
> It is a word that has many meanings and serves as a root for many other words. For example: 
> MALLËNGJIM m. sh.=movingly.
> http://www.fjalorshqip.com/



Exactly,it is the inherited diversity that counts the most,usually found in the larger groups,because the smaller ones are easier to be influenced, manipulated,especially the enclaves.

The autosomal maps that I've posted on this thread clearly show that the biggest Romanian-Vlach populations were the Proto-Wallachians,already formed before the Slavs came to the Balkans.

Although the Wallachian genes spike in Kosovo ,like the other Romanian ones,the main differences are that they can also be found in other areas,namely,FYROM(especially the northern parts) and northern Serbia (Novi Sad area).


At least for Novi Sad,it is guaranteed that these are not Albanian or Romanian genes,but Serbianized natives(especially that these seem to go westwards, into the Old Serbian territory),the clear difference can be made,since Romanian has Slavic words of Bulgarian type.

In other words, a large population from the Balkans was fragmented by the many barbarian invasions and left its genes into the Albanian,Serb and Proto-Wallachian peoples.
The Romanized part of this population was more successful against the "Albanization", probably because more men have survived the Slavic onslaught,with evidence such as ginere,Latin generis,opposed to North Romanian (Transylvanian and Moldavian)mire,which in Albanian means good.

----------


## Ownstyler

> Exactly,it is the inherited diversity that counts the most,usually found in the larger groups,because the smaller ones are easier to be influenced, manipulated,especially the enclaves.
> The autosomal maps that I've posted on this thread clearly show that the biggest Romanian-Vlach populations were Proto-Wallachians,already formed before the Slavs came to the Balkans.
> Although the Wallachian genes spike in Kosovo ,like the other Romanian ones,the main differences are that they can also be found in other areas,namely,FYROM and northern Serbia (Novi Sad area).
> At least for Novi Sad,it is guaranteed that these are not Albanian or Romanian genes,but Serbianized natives(especially that these genes seem to go westwards, into the Old Serbian territory),the clear difference can be made,since Romanian has Slavic words of Bulgarian type.
> In other words, a large population from the Balkans was fragmented by the many barbarian invasions and left its genes into the Albanian,Serb and Proto-Wallachian peoples.
> The Romanized part of this population was more successful against the "Albanization", probably because more men have survived the Slavic onslaught,with evidence such as ginere,Latin generis,opposed to North Romanian (Transylvanian and Moldavian)mire,which in Albanian means good.


Which genes are Vlach genes exactly, and how do you know they are?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Autosomal STR markers maps from "Analiza genetica a 
> populatiilor umane de pe teritoriul Romaniei folosind markeri STR"
> The genetic signature of the first map shows a wider(at least south of the Danube,
> where it is also present very consistently in northern Serbia*,unlike the other maps)
> distribution,with higher frequencies and density,suggesting an older origin. 
> In Romania it strongly resembles Dacia Traiana, while south of the Danube
> it reminds of the Latin-speaking areas from the Balkans, during the Roman/Eastern Roman Empire.
> *I'm sure that,if this set of genes is present in/near Novi Sad,there must be a further,
> western,extension,which the map doesn't show it,into the traditional Serbian lands and beyond
> ...



1st map, proto- Wallachian genes,with clear peak in the western,core parts.


3rd map, North Romanian genes(the linguistic and historical core is Northern Transylvania).


4th map, the speakers of the Maramures-Cris dialect,with the Bukovinian extension,part of the North Romanian dialects,see Dragos' and Bogdan' dismounting),they share the generalized n-r rhotacism with the Istro-Romanians and Tosk Albanians;the genetic analysis suggests that they were the smallest Romanian-Vlach groups ,isolated into the mountains,the dialect contains some additional Western Romance and Albanian elements,even more than the regular Moldavian and Transylvanian ones.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://www.istro-romanian.com/images...Graiuri450.jpg


I can't find the study on the internet anymore to post it,those samples from Kosovo have the least Slavic admixture(it indicates yellow-green).


Latin words preserved only in Western Wallachia:


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/auă#Romanian


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...V-17y9E8-NEj7b

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That a part of the surplus of the Romanian women was also integrated into the Albanian society is proven by this borrowing: zana,from Latin Diana.

In Albanian, this is definitely a Romanian borrowing, since d doesn't switch to z/dz.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zana_e_malit


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zână


Nevertheless, the obvious difference comes from the jewelry terms,inherited, in Albanian, Latin,in Romanian.


Romanian 

cercel,inel,bratara,salba(necklace,Latin subalba,subalbus)


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/unazë


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/rreth

The so-called substratum elements almost entirely refers to manly activities, such as shepherding, with virtually no intimate, sentimental, connections,except for the term for mother from the Maramures-Cris dialect,ima,related to Albanian eme.

There's also mos(elder),connected to Albanian mose,and bucuros(happy), but these terms are not from from the semantic core.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

However, even if the men may have been reduced in numbers,a heavy decimation can be excluded, since we do have a number of terms inherited from Latin,referring to handmade,easy to confection,weapons,like bata,maciuca,ghioaga,etc.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/măciucă

Another easy to predict reality, the male kids would have survived (almost) just as much as the little girls.

----------


## Dianatomia

I once read a research which indicated that Vlachs were more genetically similar to the people in the region they inhabited, than other Vlachs in other countries. That is, a Vlach in Serbia will be more similar to Serbs than an Albanian Vlach. An Albanian Vlach will be more similar to Albanians than a Serbian Vlach etc. 

They can however share some common ancestry as well. But they surely have mixed and the natives populations have absorbed them genetically. Language is what is binding them together.

----------


## ihype02

> I once read a research which indicated that Vlachs were more genetically similar to the people in the region they inhabited, than other Vlachs in other countries. That is, a Vlach in Serbia will be more similar to Serbs than an Albanian Vlach. An Albanian Vlach will be more similar to Albanians than a Serbian Vlach etc. 
> 
> They can however share some common ancestry as well. But they surely have mixed and the natives populations have absorbed them genetically. Language is what is binding them together.


Vlachs of Northern Epirus have significantly higher I2A than Albanians.

----------


## Ownstyler

> I once read a research which indicated that Vlachs were more genetically similar to the people in the region they inhabited, than other Vlachs in other countries. That is, a Vlach in Serbia will be more similar to Serbs than an Albanian Vlach. An Albanian Vlach will be more similar to Albanians than a Serbian Vlach etc. 
> 
> They can however share some common ancestry as well. But they surely have mixed and the natives populations have absorbed them genetically. Language is what is binding them together.


No one here seems to understand that Vlachs were never one people. It's like claiming that Italian, French and Spanish people all have the same ancestry. They were latinized by Rome and then split and developed separately as they had done for centuries before. There might be a tiny amount of Roman ancestry but that's it, otherwise they are all different peoples (even within themselves).

Same with Vlachs, they are just latinized Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Slavs, maybe even Bulgars or Magyars that adopted the Latin language. Some of those people created Romania later, many others remained distinct just as they had always been. I really don't understand why we are speaking of Vlach genes or Vlach ancestry.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The genetical maps are very easy to interpret, these are not the only ones.


I don't have time to fully respond,but to summarize:these Cyril and Methodius attitudes won't help you very much,for enhanced serenity,go to Rome,Constantinople,read a book, about the Byzantine Empire,Prefecture of Italy or Western Illyricum,go swimming, have a fresh air,and then, after ,come with some arguments.


The degree of compatibility is clearly greater within the Romanian-Vlach dialects,languages,comparing to each of the Italian,Spanish,French ones.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Wallachian speech shares with the northermost Vlach dialects,the Megleno-Romanian,Aromanian from FYROM and Farsherot,the identical anticipation of the plural suffix,I,it most likely reflects the existence of an extremely fast speech,even for a Italian or Greek;I am thinking about Justinian right now,"the emperor who never sleeps ".


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_error


https://www.geni.com/people/Justinia...00003645853347


Justinian was the real Balkanic hero,not because of his accomplishes, but a certain act speaks clearly about his confidence:he could have married any of the most famous aristocratic woman;instead,he realizes the Balkan Dream,taking the girl he wanted the most,a belly dancer,Theodora.

A Greek, a Western Roman would have never done it,that's why they were called,Thraco-Romans or Illyro-Romans.

EDIT

When I was a kid,I have assisted on a shepherd wedding ,here in my village from Wallachia, one of them says to his 10-12 years old son with overconfidence and a daring,charismatic smile from the moustache:" don't grab that girl by the breasts,cause she will get pregnant ".

I don't oblige anybody to follow the shepherd's advice,but one thing is clear: 

systematic,generalized,overdecency won't be encouraged in Wallachia, as far as I'm concerned.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I don`t know if Albanians and Romanians,had a common word,before dor and mall.
> The reason why the word dashuri=love it is not used by Arberesh is because the Arberesh dialect from one side have preserved some archaich forms but from the other side they have lost many words due to the preassure of the Italian language. Of course Albanian dialects spoken in Albania are more elaborate meanwhile the dialects spoken in diaspora, including Arbereshe dialects are more simplistic. 
> Also we use thew word mall. From the dictionary Albanian-Albanian:
> MALL I m. :
> Gg translator:
> It is a word that has many meanings and serves as a root for many other words. For example: 
> MALLËNGJIM m. sh.=movingly.
> http://www.fjalorshqip.com/



He was probably thinking about an Indo-European connection,with Welsh hiraeth or Portuguese saudade,but the thing is,the first term doesn't appear in other Celtic languages, that didn't have a Roman contact.


This differentiation, Albanian mall,against the Romanian dor ,also exists in the Romance languages from Western Europe.

for instance

Spanish

Me duele corazon.
Portuguese

Meu coracao doeu.
Italian

Il cuore mi fa male.

However,Calabrian dialectal
U kore me dole.

The terms and expressions coming from malus,indicates a technical, ecclesiastical, environment, proved by the example of standardization from Italian.

The words that originated from dolus imply an initially formal speech,followed by a practical,vulgar,one,that's why they were much more commonly used.

Another difference is implied here,Romanian doesn't have a word coming from malus, the term for bad,evil, is rau,probably indicating a specific form of organization, after the Roman Law association, judex(jude,in Romanian),reus(accused).

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Hiraeth

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fkqq64tSj10

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nlUg9WC0mlE


https://sites.psu.edu/kielarpassionb...04/02/hiraeth/

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/...l84I5zqYQ.jpeg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Rau,in other words,guilty:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yNT8B95x3o

Please note the differences: the Romanian premeditated the most and also caused damage(simulated),before taking the biggest spoil,the walk after had nothing special,indicating that was part of his daily routine.

However,the clip may imply that the Romanian was not a Gipsy,thus,lacking instinctiveness;if true ,it would be a terrible misconception.

In fact,more conservative Romanians, such as the Western Wallachians or Moldavians can make a Romani to appear like some sort of Scandinavian in a number of bad aspects,like,for instance,harassment, unfortunate jokes, etc.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Ethnographic relevance, this is not an invitation whatsoever.

Unfortunately, nowadays the Romanians are systematically discriminated in this respect and traditions kept for millennia could be lost forever,because,practicing is the key's activity.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Romanian-Vlach semantic development exists in Italian or Dalmatian too,but these languages,along with Albanian, have words coming from malus as their main term.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/reus


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mul#Dalmatian

It just looks like the impact was so big.


https://carolashby.com/crime-and-pun...-roman-empire/


When I say rau,who is the first name from the Balkans that came into your mind?

That's right, Spartacus.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> http://www.istro-romanian.com/images...Graiuri450.jpg
> 
> 
> I can't find the study on the internet anymore to post it,those samples from Kosovo have the least Slavic admixture(it indicates yellow-green).
> 
> 
> Latin words preserved only in Western Wallachia:
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.diacronia.ro/en/indexing/details/A26636

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> .
> 
> Attachment 7888
> .



The obvious connection:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...pe_c._1000.jpg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cometopuli_dynasty

----------


## Dreptul Valah

O mananca-n cur p-asta...

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...S2E7MhogEGbGOi

----------


## Dreptul Valah

We just can't be all Poles and Italians-it would simply kill diversity.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CckWAfRINNQ


The Balkan scene of Romeo and Juliet:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa


https://wandering-through-time-and-p...mediterranean/

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Ma'am's above article was obviously inspired by Jirecek's writings,I mean,there are surely a lot of things that doesn't fit here.


First of all,she speaks about the Asen's Uprising as if it was the most clear evidence for the Slavization of the Vlach nobility or at least part of it.


But in this case the Vlach warlords would have been only simple military tools ,acting on behalf of the Bulgarian boyars.


Another thing that the little princess seems to forget,is the fact that the Asen brothers ,as Cuman-Vlachs, most likely didn't come from the main cores of Romanianness,but most likely from the Wallati area,the Cuman bishopric of Milcov.


It explains why the Pope(meaning priest in Romanian) called him a "Roman"," we know that your ancestors came from Rome",because he was both a Vlach and a Catholic.


It is known the Wallati's zealous character,the Catholic chronicle mentions that they have fake bishops, converting the Germans and Hungarians from SE Transylvania (Burzenland)
In other words, the Wallati were a majority of Orthodox Vlachs,possibly led by a minority of Catholic Vlachianized Cumans or Vlacho-Cumans.


However,the strong religious activity of those Vlachs clearly indicates that they were at least autonomous and a better term for their relationship with the Vlacho-Cumans would be cohabitation.

Speaking of the Polaka's proposed Slavization of the Vlach rulers

In reality,it was quite the opposite, when these groups of Vlachs seized the power,they began a policy of cultural compatibilization,to achieve the elite's integration into the Bulgarian structures conjuncturally,in my words, these actions were only for the big guys,without affecting the masses of the Vlachs,that didn't understand anything from the Church Slavonic,especially, knowing their habits.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...vlachs&f=false
https://books.google.ro/books?id=Q9K...cantur&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another important clue comes from a member of the Vlach group led by Asens,Ivanko.


They certainly didn't know the typical diplomacy of the Bulgarian boyars,Slavicized and Byzantinizized for centuries,the way Ivanko addresses the Emperor clearly shows that they didn't have strong and for long relations with the Greeks either, using words like,"goat",for the imperial ladies,verbs like "impregnate", and this gazing atmosphere that comes from the chronicle, pointing that it was a shepherdly,Romanian ,business,,having an "I'll **** her until she can't walk straight on the street",in his head'.


Actually, the Vlachs natively had also the walk,they had the talk(signaled by their shrewdness),but these words prove that they were novices in dealing with the pressures on the highest level.

Nichetas also says about Ivanko that was "tall"(=Dinaric;not Bulgarian or Greek like) and "schrewd"(again,Vlach).


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMj...20goat&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"Schrewed as a fox" ,a well-known expression says,and the things weren't different in the case of Thracians and Illyrians.

The Thracians wore in battles a cap made of fox skin,most likely ritualistic,associated with skillfulness,agility or cunningness, another prove that they really believed in these attributes comes from the peltast soldiers.

The fox in the IE mythology is well represented, for instance,English vixen,meaning foxy,that's why ,we,the Balkan men, will always find these Russian,American,Irish,Germanic,etc.,women very attractive, even without the obvious propaganda.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/vixen

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_clothing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltast

The peltasts or the paintings from Kazanlak and Alexandrovo(there are a lot of men,in tone with the reality,very active and wit) offer another clues,that we're not dealing only with a Yamnaya skillfulness, but,with a strong Old Europe ancestry as well.

However, although the Romans and Greeks seem to be formed from the same kind of blendings,they and their culture look totally different.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe...opular_culture

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://www.panacomp.net/wp-content/u...ik-470x329.jpg


http://portal.ihist.bas.bg/pics/objects/1181.jpg



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...cRc2E-MK4pyOyQ


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pVh-agp_c...f-Kazanlak.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Since the Indo-Europeans were shepherds with a stratified society, they were very good at making woolen clothes and these had to be well-defined, especially wored on important ceremonies,such as the funerary banquet, that ensured the life-death cycle.


We do have these two words in Romanian that clearly speak about the funeral parties:
Joc(substantive),a juca (verb),who have an additional meaning than in the other Latin languages,it doesn't mean only to play,but to dance as well.

Petrecere,meaning a party,comes from Latin per+traicere,literally," to cross over",connected to the funerary rituals and treasures found in the Dacian,Thracian and Illyrian lands.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/petrece#Romanian


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/traicio#Latin

stecci,stecak,funerary dance

https://www.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=...act=mrc&uact=8

Kazanlak,Thracian tomb


https://travelfinder.bg/wp-content/u...6-1024x768.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E...d-funerals.htm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdaFpAG9XEk

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Also, the word passed from Albanian to Greek and greeks use the word _kopela_ for girl.


I didn't like to be offended ,that's for sure,when I was 8,there was a boy ,Babau,that hit me with a snowball, when we were playing; I was hitting him too before,but the problem was that he started laughing, pointing at me,after we have continued the game,I made a snowball with a rock inside and waited for his moment of weakness,breaking his head.


This happened at school and the professors have started to investigate me,but I have told them that I didn't know it had a rock inside,that's how I got it from the ground;they believed me,because I had the blue cord,meaning the best from school.
When I was 5 or 6 ,I used to literally disintegrate kids bigger in size and age(with about 2 years),their parents came to my house constantly complaining.

In the early twenties, for example,I was caught in a difficult situation, they were a dozen,I was alone,I don't remember what've said ,but you convince them using the eyes,look,it has to be extremely confident,daring,sharp,a short one slapped me once though.

However, after a certain time ,you'll understand that violence can't get you any satisfaction.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Dobromir-Chrysos,another Vlach according to Nicetas,could have been Dinaric as well, because he is described as a"wild boar".



https://books.google.ro/books?id=tMj...20boar&f=false



https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDov...E4MDMwMS5qcGc=



The Dinaric race arose when a certain type of selection was triggered, by females, choosing men with boar -like heads,for either virility or religious reasons,we are talking about reversible relations here,with males adopting the animals' attributes.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, unlike Romanian, Aromanian and Istro-Romanian which are eastern Romance languages.
> Speakers of Dalmatian language were not Vlachs. They were at the high at high degree of cultural development and they were urban population which lived in coastal cities of eastern Adriatic. 
> Unlike Dalmatin Romance people Vlachs were sheperds from central, southern and eastern Balkans.



Not really.


This difference also exists in the Latin countries from Western Europe,some of the dialects have the l-r rhotacism,like Romanian, others,don't,as the Albanian and Dalmatian.

Rhotacism was extremely common for Latin,the s-r,d-r,for example,thus, the l-r must represent as well the Vulgar speech,that, in certain conditions, such as,isolation or the existence of a big number of speakers ,has survived the corrections coming from the Roman ecclesiastical and institutional fields.


An argument for this,would be the existence of a specific type of l-r rhotacism in Romanesco(the dialect from Rome) and Andalusian Spanish,both territories with lots of colonies.


It would explain why the Albanians* didn't "migrated northwards", because they didn't have enough guts and were clearly fewer than the Romanians.

*Of course, the same can be said for the Serbs and Bulgarians,the other...famous monks.
The monks can be fanatically brave too,can yell for instance," Balkaniaaaaa!!!!",but you have to have many solutions,initiative,because the guts come mainly from the brain.

Don't get me wrong here,I like the Hollywood movies,but,in reality,there isn't a compensation,balancing,supreme authority, just because I know how to talk to the ladies,it doesn't mean that I lack other qualities...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"Rhotacism, in Romanesco,shifts l to r before a consonant,like certain Andalusian dialects of Spanish".



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhot...(sound_change)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ancoloniae.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

To summarize, the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians were very smart people,with tremendous culture,that's why they have interpreted the Roman and Greek influences in their own way,that's why the Romanians can't be Italians or Greeks ever.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, unlike Romanian, Aromanian and Istro-Romanian which are eastern Romance languages.
> Speakers of Dalmatian language were not Vlachs. They were at the high at high degree of cultural development and they were urban population which lived in coastal cities of eastern Adriatic. 
> Unlike Dalmatin Romance people Vlachs were sheperds from central, southern and eastern Balkans.



Let's not exaggerate, every people had vices...


For instance,the Ardiaei were well-known heavy drinkers.

"To the Greek world,the Illyrians appeared as heavy drinkers,from the drinking bouts of the Ardiaei,from which intoxicated men were conveyed home by their women,who had also participated,to the overindulgence of their kings,Agron and Gentius.


CTRL+F:heavy drinkers

https://archive.org/stream/15826619J...rians_djvu.txt

----------


## JajarBingan

> To summarize, the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians were very smart people,with tremendous culture,that's why they have interpreted the Roman and Greek influences in their own way,that's why the Romanians can't be Italians or Greeks ever.


I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).

----------


## Balkan1992

Romanians vlachs are predominantly Slavic DNA with various influences (the Balkans category), and the Vlachs of Greece and Albania (aromanians) have predominantly Greek DNA and mixed with various influences.

----------


## Aspar

Hi there,

I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:


forum image hosting


I have also uploaded my VCF file to YFULL and I am assigned as YF12612 and on the Y-tree as Y16729*.
I am not an Aromanian myself, however these close matches with Aromanians make me think that there is a possible Aromanian connection when it comes to my paternal line.
Also there is a family story that my paternal line originates somewhere more to the west in the Balkans as they came to the place where I am from, with some eastward migrations that occurred during the time of the Ottoman empire.
This coincides well with my match having origins from the Korce county in Albania!

So my question is, is my subclade, which right now is found in only one Bulgarian and me in the Balkans, in the British isles and the Persian gulf, possible Aromanian linage?
Keep in mind that I don't cluster with the Bulgarian nor with the British or the Persian gulf branch but I form my own branch, probably together with my 67 str markers match who hasn't tested for deep subclade!

----------


## Ernekar

> I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).


I wonder what will happen to this thread when you find out your expectations are stuck in 2009

----------


## Dibran

> I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).


What are you on about? Proto-Illyrian was already discovered in Dalmatia to be J2b-L283. I can't comment on Dacians, but 2 Thracian graves uncovered were E-V13, and the other was R1a(of the Z93 variety). They wouldn't turn out the majority of R1a in the Balkans today which is Slavic/Germanic/Central Asian. Unless alot of basal M417 pops up. DOUBTFUL.

----------


## Dibran

> Hi there,
> 
> I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
> I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
> This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
> Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
> There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
> What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:
> 
> ...



It is not accepting my CSV file. Is there a way it has to be formatted or something? Mine is from FullGenomes. Also on manual entry some of my STR values are coming up red and the system is not accepting my values? strange.

----------


## Dibran

> Hi there,
> 
> I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
> I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
> This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
> Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
> There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
> What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:
> 
> ...


I tried again by manual entry with Yfiler, and no matches in the entire database. Does that make sense?

----------


## Aspar

> I tried again by manual entry with Yfiler, and no matches in the entire database. Does that make sense?


Hi Dibran,

After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...

----------


## LABERIA

> Hi there,
> 
> I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
> I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
> This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
> Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
> There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
> What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:
> 
> ...


This person is from the city of Korça or from villages?

----------


## Dibran

> Hi Dibran,
> 
> After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
> Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...


Thank you! I got it to work. Do you know how close this is? Judging by my matches in Columbia, Spain and Africa I would say Vandals/Goths could be possible. Here it is. Closest match is from Albania(no region listed). DYS393 had a value of 13.c however it returned an error when I tried entering .c, so I just entered 13 instead. Idk if that screws up the assignment.

----------


## Dibran

> Hi Dibran,
> 
> After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
> Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...


Entered some values incorrectly. Heres the actual result

Heres the accurate one. Just the Albanian and German matches my STR values. Could still be Goth.

----------


## Aspar

> This person is from the city of Korça or from villages?


That person has origin from the village of Hochisht in Korca county!

----------


## Aspar

> Entered some values incorrectly. Heres the actual result
> Heres the accurate one. Just the Albanian and German matches my STR values. Could still be Goth.


Your branch is very rare, as it is mine.
We are rare examples!

----------


## Dibran

> Your branch is very rare, as it is mine.
> We are rare examples!


It appears so. I wonder who this Albanian match is. No FTDNA Albanian matches or even Yfull. I had to test my Albanian match from YSEQ to find our founder effect.

----------


## Aspar

> Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.


I agree with you, they certainly have native linage as well, however my point was how did they emerged.
As I said, they probably evolved from certain groups of Roman legionnaires and colonizers who were spreading the Latin culture and language around thus assimilating locals as well.

About the Bosh et al study, yes I have seen it, however those that are tested only have 17 - 18 markers haplotype and are shown as J2 or R1b, which is not very certain what subclade further down the line is...
If there is more J2a among their lineages, I would say that is of Roman origin because unlike the aegean Greeks who are also rich in J2a, Vlachs have to do more with the former rather than the later!

The same applies for R1b!

----------


## AlGreen

> It appears so. I wonder who this Albanian match is. No FTDNA Albanian matches or even Yfull. I had to test my Albanian match from YSEQ to find our founder effect.


This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection. 
Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach. 
11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia. 
12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'. 

As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).

By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans. 
This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
Referring to great 'Slavic' migration into South Balkans and Thessaly, Kekaumenos spotted "Dacian and Bessi from above the Danube, that claimed revenge for lost lands" that settled in the areas of Thessaly and around. And assumingly other Antes were also considered part of the great Slavic migration by those who interpreted history of the areas in recent times.

Archeology shows that first migratory wave was assimilated into indigenous population, only the second wave of west Slavs imposed the language that was fixed and spread through the adoption of OCS into Moravia, Bulgaria and Kievan Rus. 

Assumed Antes tribes were Drevelyans - in Pripet area, Dulebes - in Volhynia, Polans - South of Kiev, Severians - NE of Kiev, Tiberians - between Dnister and Prut, Ulachs - between Dnister and Dniper, White Croats - North of Carpathian in Galitia. 

Ulach obviously is the turanic form of Vlach, given by Huns, Avars, Bulgars, dissaperead in 612 and reappered 200 years later in the same area of Antes Ulachs, as Vlachs. Most of Antes tribes carry Balto-Thracian names - like D(T)revelyan, Dulebes or Latin names, like Tiberian, Severian, Volhin/Voloh/Volyn(by Slavs), Ulach(by Turks) and Iranic White Croats, settled over indigenous Dacian Carpi, Costoboci, Buri, Anartes.. in and above North Carpathians. 

Given all the facts is possible that at least part of todays Albanians were one of those Antes of Balto-Thracian origin; 
most probably shifted into Balkans around or after the 5h Century, with the Ostrogoths or as Antes, as Roman allies.
were in the proximity of Latin Romans but not around Byzantine Greeks (after 612 East Roman Empire changed to Greek); 
were not within the area of Slavic expansion, like happened to be other Antes tribes, after Sclavenes, Moravian, Kievan Rus expanded over and imposed the language.

Also important to note that Avar alliance brought into Central-East Europe what we know as White Huns, 
Alan Sorbs (in Silesia 540-630), Iranic Hrvat and if we look at the map, where they came from in the 6th Century, 
will notice that on their way from the East Caspian, through the South Caspian, White Huns - Avars brought Iranian Croats 
and from North East Caucasus the Alan Sorbs. Also notice that the Avar homeland is in East Caucasus, 
right along the land of Daghe - Dacian Arbanites. An area flooded with R1b - L23 and J2, just like Albania today.

----------


## Aspar

> This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection. 
> Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach. 
> 11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia. 
> 12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'. 
> 
> As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).
> 
> By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans. 
> This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
> ...



Your theory would explain the origin of some Vlachs but not all...
The names "Volhynia" and "Ulach" certainly have something to do with Celtic people that were living in modern day Ukraine.
Volhynia is located in North-Western Ukraine and just south of it, is located "Galicia", another term with Celtic origin.
We find this name in Spain, Anatolia, Ukraine and other places where the Celts have settled.
More over, the word Vlach, Wolka, is an exonym, given by the Slavic and Germanic people to their neighbors of Celtic origin.

The thing with the Vlachs from the Southern Balkans is that they call themselves as _Rrãmãnj, Armãnj,_ coming from the word "Roman", which means that they are identifying themselves as Romans or citizens of the Roman Empire, while the Celts from Galicia and Volhynia in Ukraine, were never citizens of the Roman Empire, nor did the Roman Empire ever had rule over those lands!

However, there are some Vlachs in the Southern Balkans, also known as Meglen Vlachs, who only use the exonym "Vlachs" to describe themselves and these Vlachs are different than the Aromanians.
Maybe there is some connection between these Meglen Vlachs and the Antes who came from Ukraine among whom were these Ulachs!
Moreover, these Meglen Vlachs are located in the mountains just north of Thessalonikian plane, where these so called "Vlacho-Rynhini" have settled!

----------


## LABERIA

> This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection. 
> Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach. 
> 11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia. 
> 12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'. 
> 
> As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).
> 
> By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans. 
> This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
> ...


Excuse me, i am curious and i want to ask you, who are these people that you call in your post Daghe - Dacian Arbanites? Never heard about them and i can't find any information on internet.

----------


## AlGreen

> Excuse me, i am curious and i want to ask you, who are these people that you call in your post Daghe - Dacian Arbanites? Never heard about them and i can't find any information on internet.


Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Daoi.

After 4th Century White Huns from East China settled in East Cucasus, along Arbanites and by the beginning of 6th Century a coalition of Caucasian tribes appeared North of Black Sea, claiming to be the famous Avars from across the Caspian Sea and demanded land in the Roman Empire. Meantime a Khazar embassy showed up to claim that the so called Avars are not what they pretend to be, but their slaves that ran away. 
So the Avar alliance settled about 540 AD in SW Ukraine, East and South Poland, from where they moved further South after, along Lombards, destroyed the Gepid (gothic) Kingdom and settled over Transylvania and Pannonia.

So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.

----------


## LABERIA

> Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Daoi.
> 
> After 4th Century White Huns from East China settled in East Cucasus, along Arbanites and by the beginning of 6th Century a coalition of Caucasian tribes appeared North of Black Sea, claiming to be the famous Avars from across the Caspian Sea and demanded land in the Roman Empire. Meantime a Khazar embassy showed up to claim that the so called Avars are not what they pretend to be, but their slaves that ran away. 
> So the Avar alliance settled about 540 AD in SW Ukraine, East and South Poland, from where they moved further South after, along Lombards, destroyed the Gepid (gothic) Kingdom and settled over Transylvania and Pannonia.
> 
> So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.


I did some research on Google and Wikipedia but i could not find anything about these Caucasian Arbanites. Can you help me by quoting some of these multiple sources?

----------


## AlGreen

I believe in documented history and facts but the Latinization theory doesn't stand, at least for part of the Vlachs, neither the "foreigner", "wanderer" attributes, given by neighbors with plenty of reasons to distance them from identity, land and history.

By implying a Rome's Romanized 'wanderer', of no specific ethnic affiliation, serves well to distance Vlachs from ancestral space, implies a superficial presence, perfect to move or integrate within the ethnic polities that formed after the disintegration of Ottoman Empire.

Vlachs, Welsh, Walloons and the populations that replaced them in certain areas, had more in common than being 'foreign wanderers', they also share a similar Neolithic MtDNA, higher than the average. 

Vlachs were/are Romans, but in a different way than is thought and perceived today.
Vlachs belonged to the Roman Empire, but the Eastern Roman Empire, not to Rome and not to the Byzantine Greek. 

And following clues explain why:

Ancient Romans were 1. Latins or Ramanes of Horatius; Ramanes -> Lydians -> Mysi -> Daco-Moesian
2. Titiens or Sabins of Arminius.. Thracian tribes from West Anatolia and Peloponnese;
3. Etruscans, Tyrrhenians - I-Europeanized Neolithic Farmers expelled from the Aegean by emerging Dorians. 

Between 1600-1200 BC Daco-Moesian - Mysi moved south from the area of Moesia, crossed into north west Anatolia. 
Anatolian confederation Assia were 22 Daco-Getian and Thracian tribes. 
About 2300 BC Akkadians gain access to Mediterranean by defeating in South West Anatolia the state of Arm, Armun, Rim;
Ancient name of Armenia was Hayk - Hayastan, People were and are Hayastani, the language is Urartian, strong Iranian influence;
About 1310 BC Nemesis was born in Ramnus (N Peloponnese), to a Highland mother;
1260 Alaksandu (Paris) of Wilusha takes captive Helen and flees to Levant; 
Allies of the Northern Rim join Ilion (Troad); In Northern Rim were Paeonian - Moesian and Mygdonian - Thracian tribes.

Kekaumenos states in Strategikon that Vlachs of Thessaly came along the great migration and were "Dacians from the Danube and Bessi, that claimed revenge for lost lands." Bessi's capital was Uscudama (Adrianople, Edirne today);

Constantine the Great changed name of historical area of Moesia to Dacia Mediterranea, with the capital in his birthplace Naissus; 
Churches St Mary and Holy Spring were built by Empress Zoe and Leo the Thracian in the imperial residential complex 'Vlachaernae'; 
By 550 AD Justinian sends Vlach Bessi to defend St Catherine Monasteries in Sinai; 
100 years later Arabs take over Sinai Pen. and most Bessi Vlachs return to the "homeland" they left from, which was North of Danube. 
In South Carpathian Mountains they built 'Sinaia'.
Same Bessi, few centuries later founded Bessarabia, between Prut and Dniester;

Around 1180 Anna Komnene explains in Alexiad that both sides of the Danube, up to the Haemus Mts are many wealthy Dacian and Thracian tribes and bellow the Haemus are Thracian and Macedonian tribes, and they are all Vlachs; 

About the Vlachs of Thessaly, Anna Komnene mentions the Vlachs of Mount Ossa that joined her father Alexios in the battle against the Normans; 

As for the Meglen-Vlachs and Aromuns, Benjamin of Tudela, Ramon Muntaner, Marino Samudo, "Chronicles of Morea" talk about Vlachia - Vallachia and identify a 'Great Vlachia' - 'Megali Vlachia' over all Thessaly "from the Pindus mountains in the west to the Aegean Sea in the east, and from the area of Mount Olympus and Servia in the north to the towns of Zetouni and Neopatras in the south." 
Tudela also identifies a 'Lower Vlachia' - over the areas of Dolopia, Aetolia, Acarnania and an 'Upper Valachia' in Epirus.
By 1270s John Dukas of Thessaly (son of Michael of Epirus) that married the daughter of 'Vlach' ruler to inherit Thessaly, leads a small 'Latin' army of hundreds to administer a heavy defeat to 40,000 +navy Byzantine army, at the Battle of Neopatras (Thessaly Capital). 

By 1340s Stefan Dusan annexes Thessaly and Epirus and his latin title was" _I__mperator Raxie et Romanie, dispotus L'artae et Blachie comes."_ 
- Emperor of Rascia and Romania, despot of Arta and Count of Vlachia.

As for the Northern Vlachs:
Until 4th Century in Galicia and North Carpathian were Dacian Carpi, NE of Carpi were Dacian Costoboci and to NW of Carpi were Anartes - Celto-Italics assimilated by Dacians since 1st Century BC;

Multiple sources attest that at least by 9 Century there were Vlachs above the North Carpathian, and is certain who were the "Vlachs - Roman Shepherds". Why would expect any other type of Vlachs, when the only 'Roman Shepherds' that should be in those areas, after Celto - Germanics moved west and were replaced by newly emerging 'Slavs', should be the Roman Vlachs? 
Is very plausible that the Huns arrival and defeat mustered all sorts of refugee seekers, incomers into the 'Roman' Balkans, that prior to 612 was a Latin speaking Empire from South Caucasus to the Danube. 
Once Huns were defeated newly emerged Gepid kingdom was Christianized by Bishop Ulfila, baptized in Constantinople, Kingdom that was an ally and under the umbrella of the Latin Eastern Roman Empire. The other side of the Carpathians, Antes, regardless of their ethnic background, were received into the Empire as allies and fought Constantinople's enemies for 200 years, until they were defeated by Avar alliance, the same year Greeks took over the Empire from the Latins. 
And, as a matter of fact, Dacians belong to Gava Cultures, which expanded around the North Carpathian, over the Pannonian plain and Transylvanian Plateau. Italics also spread from the same culture, so we talk about almost same type of people. 
Over the Centuries several Getae also spread between Dnieper and Carpathians, were pushed sides or received first waves of migrations;
Samogetians were displaced from between Dnieper and Dniester and advanced on Bug into Poland. TyraGetae were also on Dniester and they also disappeared, at the Iranian, Gothic and Hun arrivals, possibly into Antes Ulachs, that were located later in the same area.

The funerary stone of the Visigoth King explains all, what happened in the aftermath of Roman withdrawal from Dacia

"REX GODORUM DACORUM GETORUM"

----------


## AlGreen

> Your theory would explain the origin of some Vlachs but not all...
> The names "Volhynia" and "Ulach" certainly have something to do with Celtic people that were living in modern day Ukraine.
> Volhynia is located in North-Western Ukraine and just south of it, is located "Galicia", another term with Celtic origin.
> We find this name in Spain, Anatolia, Ukraine and other places where the Celts have settled.
> More over, the word Vlach, Wolka, is an exonym, given by the Slavic and Germanic people to their neighbors of Celtic origin.
> 
> The thing with the Vlachs from the Southern Balkans is that they call themselves as _Rrãmãnj, Armãnj,_ coming from the word "Roman", which means that they are identifying themselves as Romans or citizens of the Roman Empire, while the Celts from Galicia and Volhynia in Ukraine, were never citizens of the Roman Empire, nor did the Roman Empire ever had rule over those lands!
> 
> However, there are some Vlachs in the Southern Balkans, also known as Meglen Vlachs, who only use the exonym "Vlachs" to describe themselves and these Vlachs are different than the Aromanians.
> ...


Answered in a new one by mistake.

----------


## Leka

> Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Dao
> 
> So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.


What are you smoking, bro? Pass it along, don’t be stingy.

----------


## AlGreen

> What are you smoking, bro? Pass it along, don’t be stingy.


I don't smoke, I read. You should also quit smoking and take some fresh air. Check L23 Map and official ancient maps of Caucasus. 
Arabanites and Serbs were divided by River Rha. South East Caucasus is high in L23 and highest in J2. That could be a coincidence unless we talk about same type of people. 
Well, this thread is not about that, but figured a potential link between Vlachs and Albanians, that predate Balkans, in the so called Antes tribes.
It is obvious that were mostly led by rulers of Baltic-Thracian names, those nearby were Romans friendly, declared enemies, on behalf of the Romans, of the Ostrogoths, Sclavenes and Avars. For what it meant Avars after they conquered the Gepid Kingdom.

----------


## LABERIA

> I don't smoke, I read. You should also quit smoking and take some fresh air. Check L23 Map and official ancient maps of Caucasus. 
> Arabanites and Serbs were divided by River Rha. South East Caucasus is high in L23 and highest in J2. That could be a coincidence unless we talk about same type of people. 
> Well, this thread is not about that, but figured a potential link between Vlachs and Albanians, that predate Balkans, in the so called Antes tribes.
> It is obvious that were mostly led by rulers of Baltic-Thracian names, those nearby were Romans friendly, declared enemies, on behalf of the Romans, of the Ostrogoths, Sclavenes and Avars. For what it meant Avars after they conquered the Gepid Kingdom.


Can you answer to this post:



> I did some research on Google and Wikipedia but i could not find anything about these Caucasian Arbanites. Can you help me by quoting some of these multiple sources?

----------


## ihype02

> So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.


What you omit is that J2 in Albania is almost entirely J2b while in Caucus it is J2a.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> what you omit is that j2 in albania is almost entirely j2b while in caucus it is j2a.


you are right ! So the caucasian arrival dreamt by the serbs is false.....................

----------


## Ownstyler

> you are right ! So the caucasian arrival dreamt by the serbs is false.....................


Not only false, it is dishonest, it is a deliberate lie. The people who are promoting it know this but deliberately promote falsehood.

Check this out: https://orientalreview.org/2018/02/0...ern-albanians/. This Serbian PhD says the Albanians traveled from the Caucasus to Sicily, and then to today's Albania around 1043, and he cites a Byzantine historian of the time (endnote 12). This is a total lie. I read the whole section he quotes and there is NOTHING there about the Caucasus. He also cites two Albanian authors who he claims support this but without page numbers I can't verify if this is a lie, though I seriously doubt it because I know t least one of them doesn't hold such views. So it's all a fabrication.

As for the Vlachs, looking for Vlach ancestry further back than Roman Balkans is like searching for one region to find the ancestors of today's Brazilians. Y-DNA shows how heterogeneous their ancestry is. They were of different backgrounds, but they were united in being the citizens of the Roman Empire and speaking Latin.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> Not only false, it is dishonest, it is a deliberate lie. The people who are promoting it know this but deliberately promote falsehood.
> 
> Check this out: https://orientalreview.org/2018/02/0...ern-albanians/. This Serbian PhD says the Albanians traveled from the Caucasus to Sicily, and then to today's Albania around 1043, and he cites a Byzantine historian of the time (endnote 12). This is a total lie. I read the whole section he quotes and there is NOTHING there about the Caucasus. He also cites two Albanian authors who he claims support this but without page numbers I can't verify if this is a lie, though I seriously doubt it because I know t least one of them doesn't hold such views. So it's all a fabrication.
> 
> As for the Vlachs, looking for Vlach ancestry further back than Roman Balkans is like searching for one region to find the ancestors of today's Brazilians. Y-DNA shows how heterogeneous their ancestry is. They were of different backgrounds, but they were united in being the citizens of the Roman Empire and speaking Latin.


Not only false but very OFFENSIVE in my opinion ....

----------


## Johane Derite

Accentual Stratification of Ancient Greek Loanwords in Albanian
Martin E. Huld

Douglas Q. Adams Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Taylor & Francis. p. 11."The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied the Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans."

The position of Albanian, Ancient IE dialects, Proceedings of the Conference on IE linguistics held at the University of California
Eric Hamp. Birnbaum, Henrik; Puhvel, Jaan, eds

These are just three serious scientific sources that testify to the contact that the Albanian language must have had with Ancient Greek, the Doric dialect specifically.

Your forced migration scenarios do not hold up woth respect to linguistic or genetic evidence.

----------


## Dibran

> I don't smoke, I read. You should also quit smoking and take some fresh air. Check L23 Map and official ancient maps of Caucasus. 
> Arabanites and Serbs were divided by River Rha. South East Caucasus is high in L23 and highest in J2. That could be a coincidence unless we talk about same type of people. 
> Well, this thread is not about that, but figured a potential link between Vlachs and Albanians, that predate Balkans, in the so called Antes tribes.
> It is obvious that were mostly led by rulers of Baltic-Thracian names, those nearby were Romans friendly, declared enemies, on behalf of the Romans, of the Ostrogoths, Sclavenes and Avars. For what it meant Avars after they conquered the Gepid Kingdom.


You’re definitely smoking something. For one, the J2 in the Caucasus is J2a. Albanians belong to J2b. They split thousands and thousands of years ago from J2. 

Additionally, the clade of R1b-L23 Albanians belong is different from the Caucasus and also split thousands of years ago. 

You need to research subclades/clusters more. Context is everything. You’re also spitting a flimsy origin story backed by non other than Serbs and others who spread BS.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> You’re definitely smoking something. For one, the J2 in the Caucasus is J2a. Albanians belong to J2b. They split thousands and thousands of years ago from J2. 
> 
> Additionally, the clade of R1b-L23 Albanians belong is different from the Caucasus and also split thousands of years ago. 
> 
> You need to research subclades/clusters more. Context is everything. You’re also spitting a flimsy origin story backed by non other than Serbs and others who spread BS.


It’s not about smoking.. it’s only very hard to our neighbours ( as Serbia) to recognize our different religion path ( yes... they really disagree with some Albanian choise to change religion during osman period) so they invent theories without viewing and takibg account of recent genetic researches.... it’s really hard for them but I’m optimistic for the future ... maybe they ‘ll stop making ‘caucasia’ propaganda ... 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## LABERIA

> It’s not about smoking.. it’s only very hard to our neighbours ( as Serbia) to recognize our different religion path ( yes... they really disagree with some Albanian choise to change religion during osman period) so they invent theories without viewing and takibg account of recent genetic researches.... it’s really hard for them but I’m optimistic for the future ... maybe they ‘ll stop making ‘caucasia’ propaganda ... 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.


......... too sad 


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## AlGreen

> What you omit is that J2 in Albania is almost entirely J2b while in Caucus it is J2a.


J2b origin is Kura Araxes Culture. Oldest J2b to date was found in 'Tape' NW Iran, near Zagros Mts, an ancient Gatian area.

----------


## Johane Derite

> J2b origin is Kura Araxes Culture. Oldest J2b to date was found in 'Tape' NW Iran, near Zagros Mts, an ancient Gatian area.


You were saying Albanians came 5th Century AD. 

Kura Araxes existed 4000 BC - 2000 BC

----------


## AlGreen

> You were saying Albanians came 5th Century AD. 
> 
> Kura Araxes existed 4000 BC - 2000 BC


Kura Araxes shifted both sides since, in several waves, and was mainly J2b - R1b. We talk about the origin of J2b, where and when arrived is a complex matter to be analyzed. Age can tell. That's also not sure, since Arbereshe of South Italy mostly lack J2. 
So is J2b defining to Albanians or is rather acquired in the area? Highest in Albanians is E3b1. 
Most puzzling about Albanians is the weird lack of romanization, 700 years under Romans, next door, so to say; 
Heavy balto-germanic influence and low proto-European. 
No sane person can believe that Illyrians didn't acquire over millennia a solid Proto-European in mix.
Besides that, cheers to all nations and ethnic groups, wherever they are these days.

----------


## AlGreen

> It's not about religion. The discussion of religion serves to cover the real reasons. It's an complex of inferiority among our neighbors(not only Serbia), first of all. Second it's part of their chauvinistic propaganda against a nation that they consider enemy.


Gosh no, love and peace to all Balkans. I'll come another day to discuss assumptions, based on my research. Cheers

----------


## LABERIA

> Gosh no, love and peace to all Balkans. I'll come another day to discuss assumptions, based on my research. Cheers


Yeah, especially after reading this:



> About 1310 BC Nemesis was born in Ramnus (N Peloponnese), to a Highland mother;
> 1260 Alaksandu (Paris) of Wilusha takes captive Helen and flees to Levant; 
> Allies of the Northern Rim join Ilion (Troad); In Northern Rim were Paeonian - Moesian and Mygdonian - Thracian tribes.


i will wait from you that next time probably you will explain how Bruce Lee was a vlach. His name is still used in certain parts of Bucarest, so nothing is impossible.

----------


## Trojet

> Kura Araxes shifted both sides since, in several waves, and was mainly J2b - R1b. We talk about the origin of J2b, where and when arrived is a complex matter to be analyzed. Age can tell. That's also not sure, since Arbereshe of South Italy mostly lack J2. 
> So is J2b defining to Albanians or is rather acquired in the area? Highest in Albanians is E3b1. 
> Most puzzling about Albanians is the weird lack of romanization, 700 years under Romans, next door, so to say; 
> Heavy balto-germanic influence and low proto-European. 
> No sane person can believe that Illyrians didn't acquire over millennia a solid Proto-European in mix.
> Besides that, cheers to all nations and ethnic groups, wherever they are these days.


You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.

Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the *J2b-L283* branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

----------


## Angela

@AlGreen,
I see you're one of our new members who likes to post opinions which have no academic support.

I would suggest you catch up with your reading in terms not only of y haplogroups but of ancient dna before you state opinions which are in contradiction to known data. 

No one is interested in outdated, or even worse, agenda driven comments. This isn't a flat earth society group.

----------


## Sile

> This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection. 
> Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach. 
> 11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia. 
> 12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'. 
> 
> As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).
> 
> By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans. 
> This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
> ...


If vlachs are Dacians, then there where some towns in Dardania and montenegro that where dacian

*Quemedava was an ancient Dacian city in Dardania mentioned by Procopius.[1]* 

procopius mentions 2 other towns as well

----------


## AlGreen

> Yeah, especially after reading this:
> 
> i will wait from you that next time probably you will explain how Bruce Lee was a vlach. His name is still used in certain parts of Bucarest, so nothing is impossible.


Don't know about Bruce Lees in Eastern Europe, but Bruce clan in Scotland is mostly R1b. Can we keep others away and focus on thread?

Isn't about Nemesis or Hercules or Bugs Bunny, is about the areas of Ramnus and Rim;
Vlachs don't call themselves Vlachs but sort of Raman, Ruman, Arman, Armun, from Rum/Rim; 

Can't talk about Vlachs DNA without a properly documented history. Necessary to point out possible clues, related to origin, properly locate them in time; not only current genes and the Romance language; Romance language that others in the area mostly lack, even though the Roman Empire kept Balkans under Latin influence between 227 BC(Illyria) to 612 AD (Heraclius shifted to Greek). 800 years is a lot of time.

----------


## AlGreen

Excuse me, I thought I acquired the most recent info, quoting from this site:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
We can't talk DNA of an ethnic group without reviewing documented history.

----------


## AlGreen

> @AlGreen,
> I see you're one of our new members who likes to post opinions which have no academic support.
> 
> I would suggest you catch up with your reading in terms not only of y haplogroups but of ancient dna before you state opinions which are in contradiction to known data. 
> 
> No one is interested in outdated, or even worse, agenda driven comments. This isn't a flat earth society group.


Excuse me, I thought I acquired the most recent info, quoting from this site:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
We can't talk DNA of an ethnic group without reviewing documented history.

----------


## AlGreen

I'm not used with this sort of dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;

I quote from Eupedia:

"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube. 

About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis. 
Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.

Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC. 
What Culture was in South Caucasus that time? Culture that spread towards India and also arrived in Central Europe around 1800 -1600 BC? 

Can talk about this for hours but no time and what for anyway. lol 

If you guys wanna talk Albanians, I'll find you in Albanians thread.

----------


## AlGreen

> You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.
> 
> Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the *J2b-L283* branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
> https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/


I'm not used with such dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;

I quote from Eupedia:

*"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
Observe 900 years TMRCA..*

Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube. 

About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis. 
Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.

Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC. 
What Culture was in South Caucasus that time? Culture that spread towards India and also arrived in Central Europe around 1800 -1600 BC? 

Can talk about this for hours but no time and what for anyway. 

If you guys wanna talk Albanians, I'll find you in Albanians thread. Thanks

----------


## LABERIA

> Don't know about Bruce Lees in Eastern Europe, but Bruce clan in Scotland is mostly R1b. Can we keep others away and focus on thread?
> 
> Isn't about Nemesis or Hercules or Bugs Bunny, is about the areas of Ramnus and Rim;
> Vlachs don't call themselves Vlachs but sort of Raman, Ruman, Arman, Armun, from Rum/Rim; 
> 
> Can't talk about Vlachs DNA without a properly documented history. Necessary to point out possible clues, related to origin, properly locate them in time; not only current genes and the Romance language; Romance language that others in the area mostly lack, even though the Roman Empire kept Balkans under Latin influence between 227 BC(Illyria) to 612 AD (Heraclius shifted to Greek). 800 years is a lot of time.


Excuse me for my insistence, but when will you decide to answer my post nr 476?

----------


## Trojet

> I'm not used with such dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;
> I quote from Eupedia:
> 
> *"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
> Observe 900 years TMRCA..*
> Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube. 
> About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis. 
> Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.
> Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC. 
> ...


Nonsense. That's in regards to J2b1-M205, while Albanian J2b is J2b2a-L283. Please read my post carefully again:




> You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.
> Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the *J2b-L283* branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
> https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/


Again, no ancient J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture as of yet. The writing about J2b1-M205 is simply a theory by Maciamo. *Anyways, I think this was just a desperate attempt on your part to cover up your lies.*

----------


## Sile

> I'm not used with such dialog. You show lack of manners and also a serious lack of historical culture;
> I quote from Eupedia:
> 
> *"J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect." 
> Observe 900 years TMRCA..*
> Tape - Tepe in NW Iran is the oldest J2 found to date. Romans defeated Carpathian Dacians twice, at Tape, located North Danube. 
> About 68 BC Romans encountered in South East Caucasus, around Zagros Mts, kingdoms of Getaru and Lupina. Given such names, origin and language they spoke is obvious. Pompey and Plutarch clearly mention that were "definitely" neither Armenian nor Iranian, were light, in contrast with the populations of the areas and their Rulers had typical Dacian Getae names like Oroezes, Cosis. 
> Getaru means exactly that - "the Get" and "Lupina" means exactly SheWolf, what the Dacian and Getae worshiped since their inception.
> Going back in time, same area, Gati of Zagros are attested to have sacked several times Sumer and Akkadian Empires, between 4500 BC - 3900 BC. 
> ...


it is guti of Zargos ...actually Gutians a mix of persians from the south and medes from the north.
.
I agree with your first sentence

----------


## AlGreen

> If vlachs are Dacians, then there where some towns in Dardania and montenegro that where dacian
> 
> *Quemedava was an ancient Dacian city in Dardania mentioned by Procopius.[1]* 
> 
> procopius mentions 2 other towns as well


Aside of those, between 273 -318 Romans defeated Dacian Carpi several times and transferred them in large numbers from North Carpathian Mts in Pannonia, NW Balkans and N Italy. 
Morlachs (Mauro-Vlachs - North-Vlachs) of the Adriatic Coast were the mountain dwellers of the area until late XIX Century;
Istro-Vlachs is said that arrived in Istria from North Carpathian - Maramures about 1000 years ago. Their dialect is related to those Vlachs. 
But when comes to ancient inhabitants of those areas, Italics, Illyrian, Dacian all sprang from the same Middle Danube Cultures and must have been closely related anyway, in a slightly different mix.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Well Dacia was Roman province from 107–275.Genetically both Italians and Romanians have very little to nothing in common except Latin based language.
> Romanians live next to Slavs for thousands years and are very similar genetically.
> Romanians used Old Church Slavonic in churches until 19th century,had Slavic names even in present.
> Romanian language was much more Slavic influenced until it's reformation,making it more Latin.
> Wallachia was more under Bulgarian rule than ever was Roman.
> Overall Vlachs and Slavs had similar/same history and there wasn't culture bariers,except one being more agriculturalist other more pastoralists.


The very most of this Balkan Sprachbund comes from Ochrid,especially after the reorganization of the Archbishopric caused by Basil II's conquest of the Bulgarian state,it explains how the entire Bulgarian-Macedonian language has elements that are considered inherited in Albanian.


They used Romanian,Albanian, Slavic and Greek elements for a certain degree of standardization,like the alternative verb for "to marry", which in all of these had the initial meaning " to crown"(R cununa,A kurunzon,G stefanonu?,B vencavam).


This semantic shift explains very well the term mire,that in Albanian stands for "good", while in Northern Romanian, is the word for " husband ",at the wedding ceremony, the entire semantic field definitely sounds ecclesiastical(ultimately from myrrh, with the obvious association " ointed"-"crowned ");the Aromanian instead uses an inherited term dziniri(Latin generis) and in this respect it resembles the Wallachian(ginere),so basically a divergence from Ochird,nevertheless ,not the same thing can be said about the quite consistent number of shared elements with the Northern Romanian dialects(Transylvanian and Moldavian),for example,celnic(the chief of the shepherds),instead of Paleo-Balkanic baci(Albanian bats) and the consonantization,Xo,u--->Xf,v(very rare,but present in the Northern R.)

Nevertheless,the entire Romanian (Daco-R,at least/especially) has clearly less (or virtually none)consonantized words:R.preot,(Old or dialectal)Spanish preote,A prift.

Consonatization exp:Latin Paulus,Greek Pavlos,Slavic Pavle.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=eiY...panish&f=false

R. dialects:

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold...ia_Graiuri.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Ochrid School had very good diplomacy skills,probably.

Arbereshe:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N_WS0_9PZgw

I mean,even now the ruler of Moldavia,Stefan,is much more appreciated by theTurks than Vlad(just read the comments of Vlad Tepes clips),although they both have caused about the same amount of damage,the argument is rather awkward-they perceived him very chivalric;indeed,Stefan was a very fine tactician and a great warrior, while Vlad was pure instinct,but unfortunately for him, shepherdly sincere.

Nevertheless,Tepes had a great potential, he was extremely hated by his main ally,the Hungarian king,while Stephen was very popular.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiOQ570nrk

----------


## Dreptul Valah

BTW,this isn't Vlad:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad..._Tepes_002.jpg

He may have had this/similar facial structure,but the eyes were green,according to the man who saw him :

https://books.google.ro/books?id=zBS...0green&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

There is an apparently controversial early account of rabbi Benjamin Tudela,it says that the Vlachs only robbed, but not killed,like in other cases,the Jews,considering them their "brothers".

This has been interpreted in many ways,IMO,it simply sounds like a Vlach-Wallachian joke(they are very different actually from the Greek ones).

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm

Speaking of the Vlach jesterness,these jokes can push way beyond limits(even by the Greek standards)perhaps a mentality inherited before the Christianization,they are very inventive and spontaneous, but clearly way cruder than in Greece or Italy,that's why this has 50% chance to be true:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=Tyu...0devil&f=false

I mean,even if the monks had lied they did it in a reliable way.

When I say,limits,taboo,I'm not necessarily referring to vulgarity, but of extreme stances ,under the standards of post-christian sensitive concepts like death,etc.Again, it has nothing to do with the Greek /S Italian jokes,even these can sound much more " humane".

These jokes are addressed extremely boldly, direct and careless,it's about extreme overconfidence and a very high level of entertainment,but not only-they basically confirm that you're very strong,independent-I know it very well,because I used to be very good at this.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Greek flogera,Albanian flojere,Slovak fujara,all of these come from Romanian fluier,the shepherd's pipe


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QMMDptwei4E

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T7eKNeYr3w8


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv6MLK4U06U




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fluier#Romanian

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who wer.


Nice lyre,the head looks like that of the Romanian-Vlach shepherd's staff,but something else has caught my attention, this is the Romanian dark-brown horse,we call it murg,an extremely swift and spirited,nervous creature,very hard to tame,if you're not careful he can leave,accelerate, without you,they're also very hard to stop,the expression for this is"eating fire".

Nevertheless, we like to boost them a lot,because that's what he wants the most,extremely capricious horses,they can choose the path,moves,etc.,if you let them breathe(don't beat him,just keep using your energy to control the situation)...

I had a very good one...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lqoxxu3oQE

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/murg

https://www.moddb.com/mods/tsardoms-.../vlach-cavalry

In the early chronicles, the foundations of Wallachia and Moldavia are called descalecat(dismounting).

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=47955&stc=1

A murg is not your poker buddy,if you go too friendly on him,he can bite you,don't keep him waiting and show him some respect.

Bukovinian tamer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ebhELoMGP5Y

Murgi in action(Wallachian light cavalry):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35omoVwlioI


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eBRKpFP5EPo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8mIHvkaR0Ss

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Arguments for the Blakumen's Vlach origin:
-the Cumans didn't moved to the Black Sea steppe yet

- the Varangians used both sources for the Vlachs:

1)Balkanic,Blakumen<--Blach,Vlach,Vlasi

2)Eastern Slavic,Blokumen<--Voloh,Vloh,Bloh,Blok

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakumen

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> There is an apparently controversial early account of rabbi Benjamin Tudela,it says that the Vlachs only robbed, but not killed,like in other cases,the Jews,considering them their "brothers".
> This has been interpreted in many ways,IMO,it simply sounds like a Vlach-Wallachian joke(they are very different actually from the Greek ones).
> http://www.farsarotul.org/nl26_1.htm
> .


Netanyahu doesn't seem to like this old Vlach-Jewish... brotherhood that much,you can easily spot some adversity here, I just thought we were friends...


Meeting Alksandar Vucic(Serbian official with Vlach ancestry):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs

http://www.bosanskehistorije.com/for...opic.php?t=720

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politic...1&nav_id=98873

----------


## LABERIA

> Netanyahu doesn't seem to like this old Vlach-Jewish... brotherhood that much,you can easily spot some adversity here.
> Meeting Alksandar Vucic(Serbian official with Vlach ancestry):
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fCMMGYUstKs
> http://www.bosanskehistorije.com/for...opic.php?t=720
> https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politic...1&nav_id=98873


From what i know, Vucic's family is from a village in Bosnia. That village was founded by people who came from Voskopojë, Vlachs, Albanians, who knows now. Then in former Yugoslavia, the Serbs were and are called Vlasi from the other ethnic groups.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> From what i know, Vucic's family is from a village in Bosnia. That village was founded by people who came from Voskopojë, Vlachs, Albanians, who knows now. Then in former Yugoslavia, the Serbs were and are called Vlasi from the other ethnic groups.


This is a clear evidence against the Vlach's assimilation by the Slavs or Byzantines:the word was obviously pejorative in these societies, mainly because the Romanians were shepherds that practiced long-distance transhumance,for them,nomads,see Dusan's Laws,Anna Comnena's writings and the first Greek descriptions ,hoditai (kjelatori ,which means travellers in Romanian,for the Serbian papers),that meant,travellers,highwaymen.

But we can find these kind of migrations in other populations,tratturi,for instance,on the Adriatic coast,or the very early Greek mythology, Jason,Argonauts.


http://www.leviedeitratturi.com/i-tratturi/


https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tratturo

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Romans sometimes stopped them to pay the taxes,that's how they were "Romanized",but the thing is that these Dacian tribes have interacted very differently with them:

for instance,the Wallachian word for whetstone is gresie(linguists struggle to make it Slavic),from Dacian,see Albanian gereshe,while Northern Romanian has cute,from Latin.
The whetstone was a very important tool for sharpening weapons.

Another important word in Wallachian is burta,again,from Dacian,related to Albanian bark,Old English burth(birth),with simple etymology, if we look at all these words-it explains the shift of Latin sarcina in Romanian, triggered by the meanings of the substratum word.
North Romanian has pantece and foale,both from Latin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...7/7b/BURTA.JPG

http://www.academia.edu/5766282/Comm..._and_Loanwords


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bark


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/gresie

----------


## Dreptul Valah

sarcina,with the following sense ,pregnancy.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcină

search for gresie in the common R-A list.
We also know what punishments the Romans has used for the Vlachs:in abruzzese,spandeka means to torture,the word is present in Adriatic Latin-they hated Romanian's ultraindependent style life, that's for sure.

After all,because of their way of life,the Vlachs had ESTP personality type like the Paleo-Balkanic tribes ,see the chronicles about Dacians,Thracians and the episode between Teuta and the Roman ambassadors.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spinteca

----------


## Dreptul Valah

@Milan

anthropological analysis for 15th c. Romania
Arges,Wallachia,urban necropolis,75% Dinarics(more men,mostly,the "very clear" types),25% Alpine(mostly women)

Vlasca,south of Bucharest til Danube,rural,clear majority Dinarics,Alpine,plus Baltic,it resembles today's population of northern Bulgaria,the whole area,not just the Danube,but also towards the center,mountains.

Center Moldavia,rural,many unmixed Dinarics, followed by the ones with Nordic admixture.

Wallachia,various sources,mostly Dinarics,more or less Slavic admixtures;again,the Slavic traits more prevalent in women.

S:Acta Moldaviae Meridionalis

My thinking:since women with Slavic ancestry resemble mostly the ones from northern Bulgaria, for instance,Veliko Tarnovo,they were brought from there by the Romanians.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Dinaric is also strong in SW Bulgaria,but the genetic research indicates it is very local(SW Bulgaria,FYROM,esp.southern half and northern Greece),from this study I have posted the maps with the Romanian genes.

----------


## Angela

@Dreptul,
Your post recounting how you sexually harassed a woman has been deleted. Keep it up and you're out of here.

----------


## Guido Anselmi

> From what i know, Vucic's family is from a village in Bosnia. That village was founded by people who came from Voskopojë, Vlachs, Albanians, who knows now. Then in former Yugoslavia, the Serbs were and are called Vlasi from the other ethnic groups.


Vucic comes from the village of Cipuljici in the county of Bugojno in Central-West Bosnia. Cipluljic was a Cincar (Aroumanian) village that became Serbian due to assimilation. IIRC the last speakers of Aroumanian in that village died out at the turn of the last century. I've asked Serbs if Vucic has done a DNA test yet and thus far he hasn't.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...zOPtouZMJ9eAU5


The name for the ultimate ruler,in both ways,landlord and military leader ,is domn,while the institution is called domnie,both terms ,inherited in Romanian(Aromanian only has the first term), plus,these have no resemblance in the neighbouring countries.


These words come from Vulgar Latin,with the usual syncope,dominus-domn,like in oculus-ochi,probably from a form domnus,Old Italian domno,Italian don.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dominus


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/don#Italian


Vlad Tepes,a letter towards the city of Brasov:


"Think about it,when a man or domn is tough and powerful,he can make peace the way he wants;but when he's weak,another one will rise upon and used him the way he wants."

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Domnia elected the rulers,explaining this semantic shift,L conventus,gathering,R cuvant,word,but they had to be of "os domnesc"(nobles).

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuvânt#Romanian

----------


## JajarBingan

This thread is neither about Vlach haplogroups nor deep ancestry. What a shitshow.  :Laugh out loud:

----------


## JajarBingan

> I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia. I'm sure dacian and thracian blood is in the mix too. I heard they were in yugoslavia before slavs, and slavs inhabited what is now romania. Slavs moved into yugoslavia and bulgaria then a lot of vlachs left to romania. They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania. I think they just conquered the region and absorbed it's older inhabitants.
> Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.
> I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.
> 
> I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.
> 
> All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.


Yes, genetically Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Romanians than to the average of East and West Slavic groups. Romanians are in their turn closer to them than to Albanians and Greeks.

So clearly, Romanians are a mix of native Balkan people and Slavs with a Latin language, while the Bulgarians and Serbs are also part of the same mix but with a Slavic language.

Here are the closest people to the average Romanian:


Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Romanian:Average
Serbian
Average
1.218

2
Romanian:Average
Montenegrin
Average
1.349

3
Romanian:Average
Bulgarian
Average
1.355

4
Romanian:Average
Macedonian
Average
1.438

5
Romanian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia4
1.518

6
Romanian:Average
Romanian
G408
1.773

7
Romanian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia2
2.082

8
Romanian:Average
Romanian
A362
2.095

9
Romanian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianF2
2.109

10
Romanian:Average
Montenegrin
Montenegro6
2.173



Average Bulgarian:

Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Bulgarian:Average
Romanian
Average
1.355

2
Bulgarian:Average
Macedonian
Average
1.457

3
Bulgarian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianD6
1.776

4
Bulgarian:Average
Serbian
Average
1.917

5
Bulgarian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia4
1.964

6
Bulgarian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianE2
2.088

7
Bulgarian:Average
Bulgarian
Bulgaria1
2.094

8
Bulgarian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia2
2.174

9
Bulgarian:Average
Romanian
A343
2.241

10
Bulgarian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianF2
2.308



Average Serb:

Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Serbian:Average
Romanian
Average
1.218

2
Serbian:Average
Montenegrin
Average
1.381

3
Serbian:Average
Macedonian
Average
1.541

4
Serbian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia4
1.622

5
Serbian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia2
1.733

6
Serbian:Average
Montenegrin
Montenegro6
1.912

7
Serbian:Average
Bulgarian
Average
1.917

8
Serbian:Average
Bosnian
Average
2.072

9
Serbian:Average
Croatian
Croatia_Cro305
2.166

10
Serbian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianF2
2.203




Average Croat:

Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Croatian:Average
Slovenian
Average
1.068

2
Croatian:Average
Hungarian
Average
1.17

3
Croatian:Average
Moldovan
Average
1.651

4
Croatian:Average
Bosnian
Average
1.673

5
Croatian:Average
Croatian
Croatia_Cro142
1.762

6
Croatian:Average
Croatian
Croatia_Cro43
1.764

7
Croatian:Average
Bosnian
Bosnian_12
1.842

8
Croatian:Average
Slovenian
Slovenian172
1.902

9
Croatian:Average
Moldovan
748_R02C02
1.903

10
Croatian:Average
Hungarian
NA15203
1.92



Average Macedonian:



Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Macedonian:Average
Romanian
Average
1.438

2
Macedonian:Average
Bulgarian
Average
1.457

3
Macedonian:Average
Serbian
Average
1.541

4
Macedonian:Average
Montenegrin
Average
1.89

5
Macedonian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia4
1.982

6
Macedonian:Average
Serbian
Serbian_Serbia2
2.072

7
Macedonian:Average
Bulgarian
BulgarianD6
2.248

8
Macedonian:Average
Montenegrin
Montenegro6
2.255

9
Macedonian:Average
Romanian
G408
2.281

10
Macedonian:Average
Macedonian
Macedonian6
2.316




Average Moldovan:

Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Moldovan:Average
Bosnian
Average
1.475

2
Moldovan:Average
Croatian
Average
1.651

3
Moldovan:Average
Bosnian
Bosnian_12
1.913

4
Moldovan:Average
Moldovan
747_R01C01
1.922

5
Moldovan:Average
Moldovan
747_R02C01
2.018

6
Moldovan:Average
Bosnian
Bosnian_10
2.092

7
Moldovan:Average
Croatian
Croatia_Cro305
2.157

8
Moldovan:Average
Hungarian
Average
2.17

9
Moldovan:Average
Bosnian
Bosnian_13
2.172

10
Moldovan:Average
Montenegrin
Montenegro4
2.205




As you can see, we're all quite close.

Albanians are shifted towards the Greeks, but since both have also received some Slavic admixture, the average of the native Balkan stock of Dacians/Thracians/Illyrians was probably shifted even further South, somewhere in the range on modern insular Greeks.


Input
Group
Name
Fit

1
Albanian:Average
Greek
Average
1.392

2
Albanian:Average
Greek
GREEKGRALPOP11
1.507

3
Albanian:Average
Albanian
ALB202
1.922

4
Albanian:Average
Albanian
ALB230
1.935

5
Albanian:Average
Greek
S_Greek-1
2.042

6
Albanian:Average
Albanian
ALB213
2.077

7
Albanian:Average
Greek
NA17377
2.083

8
Albanian:Average
Macedonian
Macedonian8
2.11

9
Albanian:Average
Albanian
ALB212
2.122

10
Albanian:Average
Greek
GREEKGRALPOP5
2.181




Source: http://185.144.156.77:3000/checkfit.html

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Some Vlachs in Balkans were asimilatted by south Slavs, Albanians and Greeks.
> Vlachs which migrated from Bulgaria, southeastern Serbia and southern Balkans to modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century asimilatted a lot of Slavs in modern Romania. Because of that Romanian language is genetic are heavy Slavic influenced, in Romania there is a hundreds Slavic toponyms.
> Some Vlachs are slavized, albanized and helenized, but some Slavs are vlachized.
> Romanians are not only one Vlachs which absorbed Slavic population, Aromanians also absorbed some Slavs but less than Romanians. 
> Aromanians have 17% I2a1b and 10% R1a, which means that Aromanians have 27% Slavic Y DNA.
> Romanians have 28% I2a1b and 18% R1a, which means that Romanians have 46% Slavic Y DNA.
> Many Vlacho-Romanian rulers from middle age had Slavic names such as:
> Vlad the Impaler (Vlad is from a short form of Slavic names Vladimir and Vladislav) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad
> Bogdan III the One-Eyed (Bogdan is name of Slavic origin, very popular among south Slavs, Russians and Ukrainians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdan_III_the_One-Eyed
> ...



I'd choose the Musat story,that's for sure,the Moldavian ruling family.
The name came from Margareta Musata,she was not the heir of the leading parties ,but entered one through marriage,it means handsome,cute,from frumos,(fru)musat.

Some historians have speculated that she either was a Catholic or became one,possibly of Polish origin,they say...

Radu was a very common name for the early Vlach leaders,especially among those from the Dinarics,Adriatic and Kosovo(they were present in other areas too,but here were mostly recorded),who exhibit a very high degree of Romanian(Latin and Paleo -Balkanic) onomastics,see for instance the Dismounting of Radu Negru.


The name,like most of them,were adapted to Romanian, every Slavic suffix turns to -u,inherited from Latin.

Mircea is related to Macedonian Mirce,Mircevski,so,an Ochrid name.
Adapted-the diphthong ea

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Mircea

----------


## Dreptul Valah

About the note no. 9,I predicted this:

http://www.academia.edu/36939351/The..._Balkan_Vlachs


The Vlachs* from central and western Balkans were of Istro and/or Daco-Romanian types,not Aromanians,direct linguistic evidence plus a stronger connection between Istro-R and Daco-R support this.


The Serbs have admixed with Vlachs to some degree,but they have mainly maintained their Slavic character,even though have sometimes exhibit end traces of Vlach contacts.


Hasanaginica is surely not a Serbian,Croatian ,Bulgarian or Turkish story,not even an Albanian or Greek one,but Romanian-Vlach.


It is about the Vlachs that built the stecci ,who had military roles in the Ottoman Empire,the western frontier was defended by them(see:Being an Ottoman Vlach).


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasanaginica


EDIT

*Aromanian migrations took place especially along the coast later,but at a much smaller scale.

----------


## Wonomyro

> Yes, genetically Bulgarians and Serbs are closer to Romanians than to the average of East and West Slavic groups. Romanians are in their turn closer to them than to Albanians and Greeks.
> 
> So clearly, Romanians are a mix of native Balkan people and Slavs with a Latin language, while the Bulgarians and Serbs are also part of the same mix but with a Slavic language.
> 
> Source: http://185.144.156.77:3000/checkfit.html



I agree. The most of the admixture must have happened during the early middle ages, probably during the Second Bulgarian Empire.

----------


## Wonomyro

_




 Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah


Hasanaginica is surely not a Serbian,Croatian ,Bulgarian or Turkish story,not even an Albanian or Greek one,but Romanian-Vlach.

It is about the Vlachs that built the stecci ,who had military roles in the Ottoman Empire,the western frontier was defended by them(see:Being an Ottoman Vlach).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasanaginica


_




> Hasanaginica, also Asanaginica, (first published as The Mourning Song of the Noble Wife of the Hasan Aga[1]) is a South Slavic folk ballad, created during the period of 1646–49, *in the region of Imotski (in modern Croatia), which at the time was a part of the Bosnia Eyalet of the Ottoman Empire*.


 The language of the ballad is Croatian, which is a Slavic language, not Latin. 

All texts on “stećci”, medieval tombstones, are also written in a Slavic language. There are very little or no Vlach language presence in the territories of Bosnia and Croatia.

The term Vlach had different meanings in different times and places. Genetics show that the "real" Vlachs lived more eastern (Serbia, Bulgaria, etc).

----------


## Dumidre

So, let me see if I understand what I just read: “Romanians are a mix of native Balkan people and Slavs with a Latin language, while the Bulgarians and Serbs are also part of the same mix but with a Slavic language”. 
Few questions:
1. The way you describe it, the main difference is the languages they speak; on one hand a Latin language and on the other a Slavic one. Geographical speaking don’t you think that would’ve made sense that Romanians speak a Slavic language and Bulgarians and Serbians a Latin one; after all, the Romans maintained the control of the Balkans way after they retreated from Dacia. 
2. Some still think that, the Romanians (Vlachs) got pushed to the north from the Balkans by the Slavs, but, if the Slavs came from the North, why would they leave the today’s Romanian territory empty so the Vlachs could populate it?
In my my opinion, the reason that the Romanians, Serbians and Bulgarians are close genetically related is mainly because their Dacian-Thracian substrate, and with a lower effect Slavic, and Romanians maintaining their Latin predominant language is a compelling argument...


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Wonomyro

This admixture interactive map might be helpful:

http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

----------


## JajarBingan

> In my my opinion, the reason that the Romanians, Serbians and Bulgarians are close genetically related is mainly because their Dacian-Thracian substrate, and with a lower effect Slavic, and Romanians maintaining their Latin predominant language is a compiling argument...


I'm not buying that South Slavs are mainly from a Dacian-Thracian stock, because in that case we'd all cluster with Albanians and Greeks, and especially insular Greeks since those were isolated from Slavic migrations.

The logical explanation for me is that the Slavic admixture pulls the Romanians North, while the Dacian/Thracian admixture pulls the South Slavs toward the South genetically and that's how the two intersect.

Now determining the actual distribution of the two components in these individuals is quite hard at the moment, because we don't have any Dacian/Thracian samples yet. 

The only proxy for Slavs we've got come from the Middle Ages in Czechia. For Dacians/Thracians the possible proxy derives from the Iron Age Balkan references found in Mathieson's paper on Southeast Europe.

So, by no means is this pseudo-model ideal, but that's what we've got at the moment if you want to raise the question about the actual distribution of Dacian/Thracian (native Balkan) vs Slavic in the current people from the Balkans.


Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Romanian_-_G428

2.9315
48.33
51.67




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia--RISE569

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569
Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6

2.3798
52.5
47.5




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Serbian_-_Serbian_Serbia2

2.5178
40.83
59.17




Check with Albanians and insular Greeks since I assume that they are a purer Balkan stock:


Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia--RISE569

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569
Albanian_-_ALB212

2.7741
75
25




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia--RISE569

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569
Greek_Crete_-_NA17376

5.8175
99.17
0.83




Check with Ukrainians and Poles since I assume that they are a purer Slavic stock:


Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Ukrainian_-_592_R01C01

3.3803
0
100




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Polish_-_Poland11

3.561
0
100

----------


## JajarBingan

> This admixture interactive map might be helpful:
> 
> http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/


That study was outdated even in 2014.

----------


## Nik

> So, by no means is this pseudo-model ideal, but that's what we've got at the moment if you want to bring raise the question about the actual distribution of Dacian/Thracian (native Balkan) vs Slavic in the current people from the Balkans.
> 
> 
> Model
> Sample
> Sample Age BCE
> Fit
> Balkans IA
> Slavic Bohemia
> ...


What if the results of an Illyrian or Thracian show 25% "Slavic" what will your opinion be?

----------


## JajarBingan

> What if the results of an Illyrian or Thracian show 25% "Slavic" what will your opinion be?


Unless I'm missing something, Slavs didn't exist as an entity at that point in time. If you are referring to the model then in that case Balkan Iron Age will be redundant, as it will get replaced by the new Dacian/Thracian reference. 

If one of the guys were to be atypical compared to the average, be it by having 25% more steppe or something else, then I'd guess that it is normal to assume that the individual has foreign admixture.

----------


## Wonomyro

> That study was outdated even in 2014.


 What is especially "outdated" in that study? The results presented in the interactive map do no differ from other studies, including data you are currently presenting (in percentages) especially for Romania and Bulgaria. I do not see the problem. (Btw. Was it you who clicked the minus button?)

----------


## JajarBingan

> What is especially "outdated" in that study?


Everything, you don't share any significant drift with Lithuanians or modern people from Middle East and neither do I. 
Thus neither of those nor most of the other models on the map are suggestive of the admixture sources in modern people.
Now if they were to replace those moderns with Anatolian Farmers (keyword Anatolian, those in the Levant are a different stock altogether and those in Arabia in their turn are different from both) vs Steppe then that would have been a useful representation for the impact of the Indo-European migration on the settled Farmers in Europe.
Now show me a study that found a direct genetic transfer from modern Arabs or Baltics to the Balkans for example, because that's what that map is claiming. Apparently they are common according to you and I have somehow missed them

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> This admixture interactive map might be helpful:
> 
> http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/


It is ;extremely helpful.

They got scared by the distance between Wallachia (with Bucharest rural area,Ilfov,included)and Belarus/Poland;since Maramures and the very most of Moldavia is very Dinaric too ,it has to be Scheii Brasovului.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Romania


Many Romanians of Bulgarian ancestry or living in a strong Bulgarian environment identify themselves with the Roman-Italian and British cultures, they enjoy serenity a lot.


EDIT

In this study,the Turkish sample came from the Aegean Sea shore, the middle section.

----------


## Wonomyro

> *Everything, you don't share any significant drift with Lithuanians or modern people from Middle East and neither do I.*  Thus neither of those nor most of the other models on the map are suggestive of the admixture sources in modern people.
> Now if they were to replace those moderns with Anatolian Farmers (keyword Anatolian, those in the Levant are a different stock altogether and those in Arabia in their turn are different from both) vs Steppe then that would have been a useful representation for the impact of the Indo-European migration on the settled Farmers in Europe.
> Now show me a study that found a direct genetic transfer from modern Arabs or Baltics to the Balkans for example, because that's what that map is claiming. Apparently they are common according to you and I have somehow missed them


I hoped that it is quite obvious that the groups used in the analysis are just proxies for some other groups. The point is that *two sides* of the admixture event are clearly identifiable, as presented with different colors. The admixture date indicates that the arrival group was most likely Slavs, while the opposite group was an indigenous population of the southeastern Europe.

No one, who has at least basic understanding of the methodology, would read the map in a way that Romanians are combined descendants of Lithuanians and Arabs, so why should I ever try to prove such a nonsense?

(You got a positive vote from me for one of your previous posts, but you keep giving me negative votes. Do you want me to do the same to you?).

----------


## JajarBingan

> I hoped that it is quite obvious that the groups used in the analysis are just proxies for some other groups. The point is that *two sides* of the admixture event are clearly identifiable, as presented with different colors. The admixture date indicates that the arrival group was most likely Slavs, while the opposite group was an indigenous population of the southeastern Europe.
> No one, who has at least basic understanding of the methodology, would read the map in a way that Romanians are combined descendants of Lithuanians and Arabs, so why should I ever try to prove such a nonsense?
> (You got a positive vote from me for one of your previous posts, but you keep giving me negative votes. Do you want me to do the same to you?).


I told you already that there are a dozen better methodologies out there, including the latest one I shared. 

Yours is simply deceiving. Lithuanians are not a proxy for early medieval Slavs, just as Arabs are not a proxy for Anatolian Farmers (moreover pre-Slavic people from the Balkans since the latter were a mix of Farmers and Hunter Gatherers).

No offence, but you need to research more and that's why you were downvoted. If I'd only disagreed with your opinion then that would have been fine by me, but I don't appreciate the spread of lies.

----------


## Wonomyro

> I told you already that there are a dozen of better methodologies out there, including the one I shared. Yours is simply deceiving. Lithuanians are not a proxy for East Slavs, just as Arabs are not a proxy for Anatolian Farmers (moreover pre-Slavic people from the Balkans since the latter were a mix of Farmers and Hunter Gatherers). No offence, but you need to research mire and that's why you were downvoted. If I'd only disagreed with your opinion then that would have been fine by me, but I don't appreciate *the spread of lies*.


 I am obviously not "spreading lies" but links to scientific papers. I sugget you to read the manual. There is no reason to be uncivil.

----------


## JajarBingan

> I am obviously not "spreading lies" but links to scientific papers. I sugget you to read the manual. There is no reason to be uncivil.


Look, I am not looking for quarrel, but I've already explained that a 2014 model doesn't really hold a candle to one from 2018, considering all the discoveries that happened since. 

You can choose to believe what you want, but those scientific papers have been updated since with the info that I've shown you.

----------


## Wonomyro

> Look, I am not looking for quarrel, but I've already explained that a 2014 model doesn't really hold a candle to one from 2018, considering all the discoveries that happened since. 
> 
> You can choose to believe what you want, but those scientific papers have been updated since with the info that I've shown you.


I compared the result for Bulgarians from the paper (13 individuals) with the result from one sample you provided: Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6:

The paper:
Side 1 (Belorussian-like): *46,0%*
Side 2 (Cypriot-like): 64,0%

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: *47.5%*
Balkans IA: 52.5%

The values are quite similar. Now I am comparing the Romanian results (Romanian_-_G428):

The paper:
Side 1 (Lithuanian-like): *43,0%*
Side 2 (EastSicilian-like): 57,0% 

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: *51.67%*
Balkans IA: 48.33%

That is a big difference. However, the Romanian sample (Romanian_-_G428) doesn't seem to represent an average Romanian. He is also distant from the Bulgarian guy (Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6) and we don't expect that. Do we?

Bulgarian:Average 
Romanian
Average
1.355



However, the paper also shows that Bulgarians and Romanians have their "Sides 1" not much different from each other:

(Bulgarian) Side 1 (Belorussian-like): *46,0%
*(Romanian) Side 1 (Lithuanian-like): * 43,0%*

I think that the paper from 2014 is quite OK.

----------


## Aspar

> I'm not buying that South Slavs are mainly from a Dacian-Thracian stock, because in that case we'd all cluster with Albanians and Greeks, and especially insular Greeks since those were isolated from Slavic migrations.
> 
> The logical explanation for me is that the Slavic admixture pulls the Romanians North, while the Dacian/Thracian admixture pulls the South Slavs toward the South genetically and that's how the two intersect.
> 
> Now determining the actual distribution of the two components in these individuals is quite hard at the moment, because we don't have any Dacian/Thracian samples yet. 
> 
> The only proxy for Slavs we've got come from the Middle Ages in Czechia. For Dacians/Thracians the possible proxy derives from the Iron Age Balkan references found in Mathieson's paper on Southeast Europe.
> 
> So, by no means is this pseudo-model ideal, but that's what we've got at the moment if you want to raise the question about the actual distribution of Dacian/Thracian (native Balkan) vs Slavic in the current people from the Balkans.
> ...



What calculator values are you using for these models?

----------


## JajarBingan

> I compared the result for Bulgarians from the paper (13 individuals) with the result from one sample you provided: Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6:
> 
> The paper:
> Side 1 (Belorussian-like): *46,0%*
> Side 2 (Cypriot-like): 64,0%
> 
> Your sample:
> Slavic Bohemia: *47.5%*
> Balkans IA: 52.5%
> ...



You are assuming that Cypriots and East Sicilians can work as proxies for Balkans IA since they are both from the South. Same goes for Lithuanians and Slavic Bohemia.
You couldn't be farther from the truth in both cases.


Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Anatolia IA
Balkans IA
Baltic IA
Hasanlu IA

1
Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Hasanlu_IA
Cypriot_-_CYP5

3.8572
0
51.67
0
48.33

2
Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Hasanlu_IA
Sicilian_East_-_EastSicilian8H

3.2813
24.17
53.33
1.67
20.83




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Anatolia IA
Balkans IA
Hasanlu IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Hasanlu_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Cypriot_-_CYP5

3.8572
0
51.67
48.33
0

2
Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Hasanlu_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Sicilian_East_-_EastSicilian8H

3.3181
23.33
51.67
22.5
2.5





Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Baltic BA
Hungary IA
Nordic IA

1
Balkans_IA +Baltic_BA +Hungary_IA +Nordic_IA
Lithuanian_-_LithuanianD1

2.5614
12.5
57.5
0
30




Model
Sample
Sample Age BCE
Fit
Balkans IA
Baltic BA
Nordic IA
Slavic Bohemia

1
Balkans_IA +Baltic_BA +Nordic_IA +Slavic_Bohemia
Lithuanian_-_LithuanianD1

2.5611
11.67
55.83
30
2.5




Let's not argue for the sake of measuring our genitals.
That paper and model is old. Even in 2014, Davidski and Dodecad had better models with the latest references at that time than there.

----------


## JajarBingan

> What calculator values are you using for these models?


The default, which is basically the same as nMonte3.R

----------


## JajarBingan

> However, the Romanian sample (Romanian_-_G428) doesn't seem to represent an average Romanian.


Looks pretty average to me, considering the small number of samples. If you want someone that's outlying compared to the available samples there then go and pick mine from custom users (Dorkymon).

----------


## Wonomyro

> You are assuming that Cypriots and East Sicilians can work as proxies for Balkans IA since they are both from the South. Same goes for Lithuanians and Slavic Bohemia.


 What is important here is that there were two clearly identifiable sides in the admixture event, which happened during the early middle ages. We know who these sides were, so we don’t need to bother ourselves with the internal composition of each (this is what you are doing). The names are just a conventions used in the paper and should not be taken too literaly:

The "Lithuanian like" in case of Romanians is just a nick name for:
Lithuanian (37.7%)
Finnish (4.7%)
etc...

If you click on Lithuanian circle (on the map) you'll get this:

Side 2 (Belorussian-like)
Polish (51.7%)
Belorussian (38.4%)
Russian (8.9%)
Total: *99%*

----------


## JajarBingan

> What is important here is that there were two clearly identifiable sides in the admixture event, which happened during the early middle ages. We know who these sides were, so we don’t need to bother ourselves with the internal composition of each (this is what you are doing). The names are just a conventions used in the paper and should not be taken too literaly:
> The "Lithuanian like" in case of Romanians is just a nick name for:
> Lithuanian (37.7%)
> Finnish (4.7%)
> etc...
> If you click on Lithuanian circle (on the map) you'll get this:
> Side 2 (Belorussian-like)
> Polish (51.7%)
> Belorussian (38.4%)
> ...


Let's put it this way.
We're already aware that everyone in the Balkans is a mix of something Balkan and something from the North of it.

To debate about the actual distribution of the two within a modern population, we need solid Iron Age to early medieval samples.

Moderns as a reference for either North or South are not solid enough since they also have mixed with others in the meantime.
I suggest stopping our dialogue on this here.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> It is ;extremely helpful.
> They got scared by the distance between Wallachia (with Bucharest rural area,Ilfov,included)and Belarus/Poland;since Maramures and the very most of Moldavia is very Dinaric too ,it has to be Scheii Brasovului.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Romania
> Many Romanians of Bulgarian ancestry or living in a strong Bulgarian environment identify themselves with the Roman-Italian and British cultures, they enjoy serenity a lot.
> EDIT
> In this study,the Turkish sample came from the Aegean Sea shore, the middle section.


I have friends from the southern border zone,either with Bulgarian ancestry or living in contact with them,"Bulgarian " environment ",they are surprisingly reliable and nice people.


The very most of them have settled in Romania about 2 or 3 centuries ago,along with their (ecclesiastical) elites,who were persecuted by the Turks,it is from these families that lots of the members of the today's Romanian Orthodox Church have their origin.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbH9d_jw48


However,these are overally much recent elements, that shouldn't be confused with the so- called "Macedonian" ones,which are actually Romanian-Vlach.


I'm mainly speaking about some linguistic connections,for instance Slavic prah,switched to Romanian praf,this phonological shift ,h to v,f,appears in some Macedonian FYROM dialects,exactly in the areas were the Vlachs lived/were settled, starting with Samuel Comitopuli.

The Romanian origin of this shift is proved by the Aromanian and Albanian terms for a Macedonian Greek city ,Florina and Follorine,from Greek Chlerion,Hlerion,but the Macedonian Slavic with the usual form Lerin.
Nevertheless, the Macedonian Slavs from that area,the Prespa dialect ,do has this h-to-f,v shift as well as the local Greeks,it seems...


It was in that area the Vlachs are firstly recorded ,in 976,since this was a Bulgarian core zone ,they probably initially sided with Samuil,until the Greeks bribed them to kill his brother,David.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Prespa_dialect


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl21_2.htm


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Since both the Prespa event and the Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo are located in Western Macedonia, towards the Albanian border,and both the Albanians and the Romanians used the word schiau,shqa,a Slav,only for Bulgarians,but not for Serbs,this proves that both were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,because,as the word says,they ,not only that they were not Slavs,but also didn't want to become ones.(my phone no., to very beautiful ladies,only in private,pls...).


https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Șchei

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...zOPtouZMJ9eAU5


This is Roesler theory,the Romanians have emigrated northwards through a Second Bulgarian filter.


It can't be correct, because Asens got Bulgarian ized, there was not Vlach aristocracy in general(Partistrion-Tarnovo,not Western Macedonia,since Nichtas Choniates places Vlachia in northern half of Bulgaria,he call it Moesia(Inferior),while Wallachia and Moldavia and the Romanians from Transylvania have maintained their institutions,see Vlach Law,etc
In reality ,the fact that the Asens demanded Old Church Slavonic liturgy for all the Vlachs,demonstrates quite the opposite, very few of them were in this Bulgarian thing.


Madgearu proved this,the Vlachs living in desertum Bulgarie, the Cuprija-Nis area,on Morava,had nothing to do with Asens,they didn't participated in the uprising, plus many of the Vlachs turned against them ,after they choose Bulgarization,see Ivanko,who recruited in his army only Vlach troops.

----------


## LABERIA

> Since both the Prespa event and the Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo are located in Western Macedonia, towards the Albanian border,and both the Albanians and the Romanians used the word schiau,shqa,a Slav,only for Bulgarians,but not for Serbs,this proves that both were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,because,as the word says,they ,not only that they were not Slavs,but also didn't want to become ones.(my phone no., to very beautiful ladies,only in private,pls...).
> 
> 
> https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html
> 
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Șchei


Who _were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,_Serbs and Bulgarians?

----------


## LABERIA

https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alburnus_Maior
https://www2.rgzm.de/Transformation/...MiningEngl.htm

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Here in the village, the elders pronounce femi:e(femiie),a woman.


I started to be interested in history,when I was six,with the legend of Gelu's Death.

It was about a Romanian-Vlach chieftain chased by the Hungarian army;Gelu,countless times escapes the ambushes,he literally chews a wounding arrow,on his horse, a dark-brown restless murg.


After he dies,the horse doesn't stop,he carves the grave with his feet.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fëmijë

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Basically, there are exactly the same instincts in my father's area,Arges,but this is the core of the Wallachian state,here the shepherds have created a civilization along with Western Wallachia,they can be more refined,but only in thought.

----------


## Yetos

man you are nuts?

we do not even eat the eggplants, if the neighbour used furadan for his potatoes,

that think s very toxic, and needs more than half a month to 'solve' and at least 2 rains,
it is used only in mountains, in fenched potatoe fields, and as rat killer with Sintrom.

At least 4 km from habited area, and away from plains that goat or sheeps eat grass.

----------


## JajarBingan

> Watch your tone,you Facebook *****...
> P-R-I-C-K



You need medical attention ASAP.

----------


## Ownstyler

Idk if you have read this paper, but if not give it a try, it's worth it: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...of_the_Aromuns.

The conclusion is that Vlachs originated south of the Danube, but not from the same place. They are as heterogenous as the Balkans in general, so much more so than any single population.

As I have been saying for a long time, it makes no sense to study Vlach genetics as a whole, as it is pointless to study the genetics of Americans, unless you focus on very specific subgroups.

----------


## Dumidre

Aromuns are not all the Vlachs and to generalize and say that all Vlachs originated south of the Danube is completely inaccurate... there is enough evidence that the origin of the Vlachs (Daco-Romans) was North of the Danube. Some went south after the Aurelian Retreat along with the Romans, but many remained north of the Danube, retreating around the Carpathian Mountains and the neighboring hills.


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Ownstyler

> Aromuns are not all the Vlachs and to generalize and say that all Vlachs originated south of the Danube is completely inaccurate... there is enough evidence that the origin of the Vlachs (Daco-Romans) was North of the Danube. Some went south after the Aurelian Retreat along with the Romans, but many remained north of the Danube, retreating around the Carpathian Mountains and the neighboring hills.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum


It is accurate to say that the people and communities that participated in the study originated South of the Danube though. And there 5 unrelated Vlach communities there.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Facts about Kaloyan,the Asen's youngest brother


His name,Ionita(Ionitsa) is tipical for a Romanian little brother,with the usual diminutive suffix,-ita,-uta,that has the same spelling as the Italian -izzo,-uzzo.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=bW9...suffix&f=false


IMO,his seal,ring,does not contain a Dalmatian dog,but a Romanian mythological monster,the snake-dragon, called balaur,because:

-the' dog' has scales

-has snake-like slender body,way bigger jaws and claws

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/Bulgaria1.htm

http://www.hubert-herald.nl/Bulgaria...n/image061.jpg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaur

https://www.sarahsawyer.com/2011/10/...re-the-balaur/


Kaloyan is the third Asen brother, with the previous two,already killed,he will eventually have the same faith,the name means John the Handsome.

In the Romanian mythology, Prince-Charming,named Fat-Frumos,of Latin origin,literally, "The Handsome Young" ,is the third son of an Emperor,he kills the Balaur,after his brothers have failed(an usual IE event,that has the purpose to renew the death-life cycle),the monster on the ring is a trophy,for sure.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another one:

https://www.thewhitestork.com/userfi...duct_43160.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Balkan autosomes has to be mostly Dacian,Thracian and Illyrian,since it overlaps with the following Romanian borrowing, bryndza.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryndza


Polish song,Moldavian pronunciation:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EEzoWrYUG-Q


North of the Danube,these genes can be associated with the spreading of the Shepherd's Axe,the Valasska.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_axe


Polish dance:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nwhUxXyfZBw


https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...HE-w5XWNXS39o_


And, the Romanian word for axe,secure,comes from Latin.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/secure

----------


## Dreptul Valah

No offense,but this is the ENFJs weapon,it represents the Wallachian noble character,under the hood.

http://www.shopsharpblades.com/colle...shepherds-axe/


A Wallachian from the same area:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Valach_1787.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Vlachs may have been very skilled Protagonists at ambushing,but,I wonder,to whom they performed amagire,because it had to be a calm and sensitive person,like ,for instance,this lady from Southern Italy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pToCQw1Nic4


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aține#Romanian



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/amăgi

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian bade is the addressing formula to an older brother,man,the word has unknown etymology.


It comes from Latin abas,abatem,and,like cuvant and possibility murg(from monachus,with the n-r rhotacism)was a monastical word.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/abbas#Latin


The loss of the initial a-,very common in Latin,for example,Latin aranea,Romanian raie.


EDIT

The Romanian form is very similar to the Portuguese and Spanish ones.

----------


## td120

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8F

https://ro.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8F

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8F
> https://ro.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8F



Only in Russian,you say.

Old Russian has preserved some words coming directly from Latin,without a Byzantine-Greek intermediate,more details can be found on Quora,the topic' name,"Is Russian a Latin language?"

There are also some German papers on the internet who claimed that ,at least,part of the Latin terms from all of the Slavic languages could be Romanian borrowings.


The main questions are:who passed them these words and in what place?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another word close to bade,the Italian badessa.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/badessa

----------


## td120

Parallels can be found in other IE languages.
Bulgarian variants are бате ; бат' ; батко ...байо , байно , бай etc. and have the same meaning like in Romanian. Similar forms I believe exist in Serbian too.

As for abbas ,abbot ...the origin is clearly Semitic.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Jintita(Jintitsa) is a traditional sheep product from Romania made from whey.


In my family, they were slowly heated the whey,to divide the solid-fat part from the "water".That water is jintita, very refreshing.


Although the word was introduced by the Romanian shepherds in the Carpathian Slavs' lands,their present product,zyncica is very different,some sort of kefir,although still whey-based,it seems.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Žinčica


The word has a Slavic etymology, from a supposed root *zeti(to press),however it is not present in the Slavic countries,except from the North-Western Carpathian territories, as a borrowing.


South of the Danube it appears extremely isolated in a small area from the Bosnian mountains,the locals call the whey,zetyca,this is,for sure,a Vlach heritage(Petrovic)


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm

----------


## gidai

> Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach. 
> (...)


Who say that? No, never! Romanians call themselves Români or Rumâni. And I think Aromanian also not call themselves Vlachs... but _Rãmãnj or Armãnj._

----------


## Fatherland

> Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach.
> 
> The Vlach people are primarily pastoralists involved in the raising of livestock, they have inhabited the mountains of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the former Yugoslavia and profess the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. Traditionally they spoke a proto-Romanian language and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups. 
> 
> This figure illustrates two of the three origin theories as proposed by Bosch et al. (2005), namely that the Vlachs originated from either the Dacians or the Thracians along the Danube.
> 
> In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although *a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out*.'
> 
> 'All the Balkan populations analysed here were genetically homogeneous with the exception of some Aromun samples. This was particularly evident with the Y chromosome, as both haplogroup and 19 STR haplotype based data showed significant differences among the Aromun groups. Therefore, it seems that the Aromun populations *do not constitute a homogeneous group* separated from the rest of the Balkan populations, but that they *present relative heterogeneity*, especially for paternal lineage composition, between themselves.'
> ...


Everything is wrong in this. Romanians/Aromanians DON'T call themselves Vlach.

Neither are they Greeks by ancestry. If anything they have a deep relation to Albanians, we see it in haplogroups.

There is a theory that proto-A/Romanians and proto-Albanians share the same progenitors.

When Albanians, along with a minority of Vlachs arrived to Greece in the middle ages, the Byzantines could not make a distinction between them.

----------


## gidai

Yes. He was wrong from the first words.

----------


## Dorianfinder

In 2006 Bosch et al. attempted to determine if the Aromanians are descendants of Latinised Dacians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians or a combination of these, but no hypothesis could be proven because of the underlying genetic similarity of all the tested Balkan groups. 

Linguistic and cultural differences between Balkan groups were deemed too weak to prevent gene flow among the groups.

HOWEVER,

Haplogroup R1b is the most common haplogroup among two or three of the five tested Aromanian populations, which is NOT shown as a leading mark of the Y-DNA locus in other regions or ethnic groups on the Balkan Peninsula. 

On the 16 Y-STR markers from the five Aromanian populations, Jim Cullen's predictor speculates that over half of the mean frequency of 22% R1b of the Aromanian populations is more likely to belong to the L11 branch.

L11 subclades form the majority of Haplogroup R1b in Italy and western Europe, while the eastern subclades of R1b are prevailing in populations of the eastern Balkans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians

L11 is the parent of the Proto-Italo-Celtic-Germanic P312/S116 and Proto-Germanic S21/U106 subclades.

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## LABERIA

> and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups.


This is pure Greek propaganda.

----------


## Dorianfinder

If you read all my posts in this thread you will see that I say the Vlach people are viewed as locals in the Balkans. In Greece they are perceived as Greek highlanders, in Albania they are viewed as Albanian highlanders, in Serbian, Romania, Croatia etc...

They are liked by all Balkan nations because they follow local patriotic tendencies and their customs are perceived as originally Balkan. 

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## LABERIA

> If you read all my posts in this thread you will see that I say the Vlach people are viewed as locals in the Balkans. In Greece they are perceived as Greek highlanders, in Albania they are viewed as Albanian highlanders, in Serbian, Romania, Croatia etc...
> They are liked by all Balkan nations because they follow local patriotic tendencies and their customs are perceived as originally Balkan. 
> Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk


This is something different from what you said in the other post that i have quoted.
150 years ago, until the Congress of Berlin, even the Serbs were perceived in Greece as Greeks. Anyone who was an Orthodox was considered a Greek.
In Albania the Vlachs are not perceived as Albanian highlanders. They are considered Vlachs. They have their churches, schools, associations, everything in their language. 
Check better your sources.

----------


## gidai

Dorianfinder,
Maybe I'm wrong but as I know, Aromanians are proud of their ethnicity and marry almost exclusively within their own group. Maybe they have preserved some older genetic features from Balkans. That may also be the explanation for some small differences found on the chromosome Y to others around.

----------


## Dorianfinder

The red dots represent exclusive Vlach settlements. They are predominantly located in the mountanous regions of Albania. 

In contrast to the exclusive Vlach settlements located in the highlands, Vlach communities that are further away from their traditional location at elevation are more diverse and have developed in recent years.

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## LABERIA

> The red dots represent exclusive Vlach settlements. They are predominantly located in the mountanous regions of Albania. 
> 
> In contrast to the exclusive Vlach settlements located in the highlands, Vlach communities that are further away from their traditional location at elevation are more diverse and have developed in recent years.
> 
> Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk


First of all i must tell you that i personally do not have a very good report with this myriad of mape circulating on the internet. For example, here you show us a map that can not truly be considered a map. Not a link, not a legend that explains this map, for example, what are these yellow dots?
Secondly, i do not understand what you are trying to explain with this map. This map does not prove that:



> in Albania they are viewed as Albanian highlanders


Let me repeat, we don`t see them as Albanian higlanders. 
And third, i do not want to offend you, but on Vlachs, at least those who live in Albania, you know nothing, but nothing at all.

----------


## Dorianfinder

LABERIA, 

I explained what the red dots depict.

Red = Aromanians are the exclusive population in the settlement.

Yellow = Aromanians form a substantial minority in the settlement.

Source:

Data gathered from The Albanian Aromanians´ Awakening: Identity Politics and Conflicts in Post-Communist Albania by Thede Kahl 1999.



Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## LABERIA

> LABERIA, 
> 
> I explained what the red dots depict.
> 
> Red = Aromanians are the exclusive population in the settlement.
> 
> Yellow = Aromanians form a substantial minority in the settlement.
> 
> Source:
> ...


The only book that i could find with the tittle cited by you was was this:
*#03: The Albanian Aromanians' Awakening: Identity Politics and Conflicts in Post-Communist Albania.*  Author
*Schwandner-Sievers, Stephanie*

Pages
19

Release Date
01-03-1999



https://www.ecmi.de/publications/det...t-albania-192/
But the author is not Thede Kahl but *Schwandner-Sievers, Stephanie.* I will not suggest to read this book. Just look what i found in the references:



> SEVASTIANOS, Metropolitan of Dryinoupolis, Pogoniani and Konitsa (1986):
> Northern Epirus Crucified. Athens: Kaphouros.
> SEBASTIANOS, 
> Mitropoliti i Dropullit (1992): Vorio Epiri i Greqise. Athens: Lidhje Panhelenike.


And i don`t see the map that you have posted.

----------


## Dorianfinder

The article was authored by Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers (1999).

REFERENCES
The map „Most important settlements of the Aromanians in Albania“ has been graciously provided by Mr. Thede Kahl (Institut für Geographie, Universität Münster) and is based on the author’s original fieldwork in Albania in 1995-6 and the following sources:

BURILEANU, Constantin N. (1906): De la Românii din Albania (About the Romanians of Albania; Romanian). Bucharest.

CAPIDAN, Theodor (1928): Românii din Albania (The Romanians of Albania; Romanian). In: Graiul Românesc 2, Nr. 11, Bucharest, pp. 195-209.

CAPIDAN, Theodor (1930): Farserotii (The Farsherotes; Romanian). in: Dacoromania 6, Cluj, Bucharest, pp. 1-210. MAIER, Radu O. (1964): Asezarile de calive la Aromînii din Albania (Hut settlements of the Aromanians in Albania; Romanian). in: Revista de Etnografie si Folclor 9, Nr. 2, Bucharest, pp. 183-189.

NEIESCU, Petru (1997): Mic atlas al dialectului aromân din Albania si din Fosta Republica Iugoslava Macedonia (Small Atlas of the Aromanian Dialect of Albania and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; Romanian). Bucharest.

PAPAHAGI, Tache (1920): La Românii din Albania (The Romanians of Albania; Romanian). Bucharest.

SCHWANDNER-SIEVERS, Stephanie (1998/99): References.

URBAN, Martin (1938): Die Siedlungen Südalbaniens (The settlements of South Albania; German). Tübinger geographische und geologische Abhandlungen, Reihe II, Bd. 4, Öhringen.

VEREMIS, Thános, Theódoros Kulumpís and Ilías Nikolakópulos (The Greeks of
Albania; Greek). Athens.

WEIGAND, Gustav: Die Walachen in Musakié (The Vlachs of Musakié; German). In: Romänische Revue 8, Nr. 1 und 2/3, Viena, Budapest 1892, pp. 19-22 (in 1), pp. 109-112 (in 2/3).

WEIGAND, Gustav (1892): Von Berat über Muskopolje nach Gjordscha (From Berat via Muskopolje to Gjorscha; German). In: Globus 61, Nr. 24, Braunschweig, pp. 369-376.

WINNIFRITH, Tom (1995): Shattered Eagles. Balkan Fragments. London: Duckworth.

This article was published by:

EUROPEAN CENTRE FOR MINORITY ISSUES (ECMI) Schiffbruecke 12 (Kompagnietor Building) D-24939 Flensburg . Germany
+49-(0)461-14 14 9-0 fax +49-(0)461-14 14 9-19 e-mail: [email protected] internet: http://www.ecmi.de

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## Dorianfinder

The article concludes with the following remarks:

The evidence strongly suggests that Albanian Aromanians’ globalising
identity confers an advantage to them over non-Aromanian Albanians. By renouncing a local identification in favour of one associated with more powerful States (Romania and Greece), that is, associated with ideas distant in space and time and therefore mystical and unchallengeable, they create access to scarce social, economic, political and cultural resources while profiting from new opportunities in the Albanian transition process.
Besides creating a sense of exclusivity, they are able to shift identities: they can choose between different modes of identification, or they can attribute distinct significance to different identities in various situations, referring to their pre-communist situation if opportune. This flexibility is an efficient and profitable strategy of adjustment to different circumstances. It is undoubtedly not unique to the Albanian case. In contrast
to essentialist assumptions, I want to stress that it is the flexibility of identities that makes people strong everywhere.

Sent from my BND-L21 using Tapatalk

----------


## mihaitzateo

Vlachs should be related to Wallons from Belgium and to Welsh people from Wales, becos names are resembling :) .
Or actually this is how the Germanic speakers are calling Celto-Italic speakers. (Keltoi word from Greek gave the name to this group of ethnicities, Celts.
From Latin it comes Gauls. A group of IE people, more ethnicities. The larger ethnicity, is Italo-Celtic people to which Thracians seems to have been part of it.)
I have a good mate which is half Aromanian.
He never calls himself Vlach.
Aroman.
Or Machedon. :) 
You can use Google Translate to verify the veracity of what I have written above:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arom%C3%A2ni
(veracity is a more rare word in English, which comes from Latin and means truthfulness:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/veracity)

----------


## mihaitzateo

> I agree. The most of the admixture must have happened during the early middle ages, probably during the Second Bulgarian Empire.


_Yes, we are a mix of Slavs with Dacians_, this is why most Romanians do not want to practice agriculture and calling someone a "peasant" ( băi țărane) was and is a great insult in Romania.
:)
Also calling someone a porcar (person which raises pigs) is not something nice in Romania. Goths and Slavs should have brought the raising of pigs in Romania which became very popular. We also have a word, which is used to say about something that greatly sucks , porcărie - something related to a pig , which is porc in Romania.

*No, we are not a mix of Slavs with Dacians*, we are a mix of Dacian tribes, mostly and we also have some Celtic blood (more than Gothic, it seems) and most Romanians should also have some Goths blood. Some Romanians are also having strong ancestry from Slavs, but most of their ancestry comes from Dacians, also.
Stephan the Great brought like 100.000 peasants of Ukraine with their families and settled them in Moldavia plains, giving them land and also, money so they could build houses.
They were taken as free peasants not as Serfs. That was around 1450 AD and in those times, 100.000 people were a lot of people.
I am supposing that some Goths and Slavs also settled in Romania plains and started to practice agriculture during the Gothic migrations and during the Slavic migrations.

----------


## Wonomyro

> _Yes, we are a mix of Slavs with Dacians_, this is why most Romanians do not want to practice agriculture and calling someone a "peasant" ( băi țărane) was and is a great insult in Romania.
> :)
> Also calling someone a porcar (person which raises pigs) is not something nice in Romania. Goths and Slavs should have brought the raising of pigs in Romania which became very popular. We also have a word, which is used to say about something that greatly sucks , porcărie - something related to a pig , which is porc in Romania.


(You just reminded me to a nice Romanian film I watched. It was about living under communistic regime. People were hungry most of time. A family of a city policeman got a bribe from a village man in a form of a living pig. They had to kill the pig somehow in their flat, in secrecy. So they got an idea to kill the animal with gas. They sucessfully did it in their kitchen. But when a man started to burn the skin, the pig exploded… I like Romanian films.)




> *No, we are not a mix of Slavs with Dacians*, we are a mix of Dacian tribes, mostly and we also have some Celtic blood (more than Gothic, it seems) and most Romanians should also have some Goths blood. Some Romanians are also having strong ancestry from Slavs, but most of their ancestry comes from Dacians, also.


Let’s take look into some data:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Ar...00551-g003.jpg

Obviously, a dark green component has something to do with the Roman times in south eastern Europe. It gets its maximum is in Greeks and Sicilians (probably in Albanians too). Italians also have a lot of it. It is not a surprise that a Romanian sample (ROM) has a lot of dark green component. Other nations have only a small proportion of it.

Second significant color in Romanians is dark blue. It is related to peoples who eventually came from the north-east, and historical records mention only Slavs.

A light blue component can be roughly associated with Celto-Germanic folks. It is indicating that Romanians do not have more of it then e. g. Belarus, but less then South Slavs do.

It is impossible to identify Dacians as we don’t have any reference point like an ancient autosomal Dacian sample, nor a single haplogroup. Therefore we can’t state that Romanians are “mostly Dacians”. We simply don’t know.

IMO, the spread of Romanian language north of the former Roman borders can mean only one thing, and that is – a migration from the south. As we have seen, the autosomal data (dark green component) strongly supports that scenario.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Let’s take look into some data:
> 
> https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Ar...00551-g003.jpg
> 
> Obviously, a dark green component has something to do with the Roman times in south eastern Europe. It gets its maximum is in Greeks and Sicilians (probably in Albanians too). Italians also have a lot of it. It is not a surprise that a Romanian sample (ROM) has a lot of dark green component. Other nations have only a small proportion of it.
> 
> Second significant color in Romanians is dark blue. It is related to peoples who eventually came from the north-east, and historical records mention only Slavs.
> 
> A light blue component can be roughly associated with Celto-Germanic folks. It is indicating that Romanians do not have more of it then e. g. Belarus, but less then South Slavs do.
> ...


I think is quite clear that the dark green component which is also very present at Greeks and at Italians is actually from Thracians (and is lots of it at Albanians,also).
If the dark blue is Slavs only, how come that Orcadians got it also?
Slavs mixed to early Vikings?
That dark blue component is also present at French people. French people are not mentioned to have mixed to Slavs or Vikings.
So, the dark blue component which is very clearly related to Slavs and BaltoSlavs, also, could also be related to the Goths/East Germanic tribes.
Regarding the Goths and other East Germanic tribes,are mentioned in the written history from Greeks and Roman historians any conflicts between Slavs and East Germanics?
I do not think so. Even more, in some writings Slavs that migrated to ex-Yugo are called also "Goths".
Also, it was said in the history that East Germanics came with Sarmatians and that Sarmatians were allies to East Germanics.
There is a tradition at Poles that their nobility is of Sarmatians origins.
So it seems it was quite an overlapping between early Slavs and East Germanic speakers and it seems even more, that these people were living together.
Goths brought in Spain R1A paternal lines :) .
Now related the light blue component and the Celts/Gauls - Basque people do not have such a component.
So I would be really curious to see some Irish people autosomal DNA tests, with these components and also some Scottish highlanders autosomal DNA testing, with this components.
What I think is that the light green component it seems to have been related to Gauls/Keltoi.
Sure the light blue component should also be related to Keltoi/Gauls but light blue is clearly related to Norwegians which should be mostly North Germanic not Celtic.
Some autosomal DNA from Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Republic of Ireland , Scottish Highlands, Welsh, French highlanders, Swiss highlanders will greatly help.

----------


## Wonomyro

> I think is quite clear that the dark green component which is also very present at Greeks and at Italians is actually from Thracians (and is lots of it at Albanians,also).


 Yes, it is likely that ancient Thracians (or proto Thracians) made up a significant part of the dark green component.




> If the dark blue is Slavs only, how come that Orcadians got it also?


The same question goes for “Sardinians”. It is perhaps something very ancient, or it came with Norvegians, a result of a slave trade, or just a statistical error. Anyway, nobody expects that the dark blue component came to Romania from Orcadia rather then from e. g. Belarus so we should just ignore it.




> Slavs mixed to early Vikings?


 Rather to East Germans like Goths. Chernyakov zone would be a good candidate as a place where that admixture could have occurred. It could be also a trace of the Central Europe substrate.




> That dark blue component is also present at French people. French people are not mentioned to have mixed to Slavs or Vikings


 A significant number of Poles settled to France in the past, but the dark blue component could have come with East Germanic peoples. We see the traces in Spain too (Goths and Vandals?).




> So, the dark blue component which is very clearly related to Slavs and BaltoSlavs, also, could also be related to the Goths/East Germanic tribes.


 It is possible that some of the Germanic genes ended up in the dark blue component and some Slavic genes in the light blue. No method is perfect. However, it is clear that the dark blue dominates in Balto-Slavs and is not significant in Germanic nations.




> Regarding the Goths and other East Germanic tribes,are mentioned in the written history from Greeks and Roman historians any conflict between Slavs and East Germanics?
> I do not think so. Even more, in some writings Slavs that migrated to ex-Yugo are called also "Goths".
> Also, it was said in the history that East Germanics came with Sarmatians and that Sarmatians were allies to East Germanics.


 Exactly, especially Croats were called Goths in ancient texts. There are different explanations for that. Culturally they were Slavs, no doubt. 




> There is a tradition at Poles that their nobility is of Sarmatians origins.


 Probably not founded in reality...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The word Romanian doesn't come along,even if associated with the shepherdry,domn is the ruler present also south of the Danube,while S,erb(Sherb) is serf,betacism from the Latin servus,with the Megleno-Romanian sirbiri,to serf,there are clear social structures.


https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limba_meglenoromână


Serb,Serban(Sherban) is a ruler's name,it means (Lord's,God's) Servant,attested extremely early in the Wallachian state core(Carpatii Meridionalii,Southern Carpathians).


John Hunyadi's grandfather was named S,erb,he and his son Mattias Corvinus had Wallachian ancestry.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dominus


Another thing here,the earliest church from Curtea de Arges,dated to late 13thcentury has the Old Romanian name, for both the saint(San) and Nicholas(Nicoara,typically l-r rhotacism for Romanian).
San Nicoara church:


https://turismistoric.ro/wp-content/...n-nicoara3.jpg


http://turismistoric.ro/wp-content/u...n-nicoara1.jpg



https://www.welcometoromania.ro/Curt...es/sannic5.jpg

----------


## mihaitzateo

Romanian genetics, if it is taken fine grained is East Balkanic, which is different from both Greek genetics and Italian genetics, on that graph that Wonomyro uploaded.
One of the differences between Dacians and Roman Empire was that Dacians did not kept people as slaves.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I agree. The most of the admixture must have happened during the early middle ages, probably during the Second Bulgarian Empire.



The Romanians-Vlachs have gained a lot of power after the disintegration of Samuil's state,the so-called Western Bulgarian Empire,it was the Byzantines decision for protecting strategic places like mountain passes and so on,with many sources, such as the Crusaders, who speak about the Terra Blacti(Vlach Land) ,located in dessertum Bulgariae,while the Asens had a castle and estate in the higher places,Nichetas says.



These descriptions are very clear,entire regions were granted to the Romanians and they were "empty" ,because there was nobody else there;since the Romanians practiced transhumance these lands must've been large,but the shepherds were not seen often, because they were with the sheeps or defending the post,fort,they took the women and children with them.



Kekaumenos speaks about two groups of Vlachs, Dacians and Bessi,who defended the area along the Danube and Sava(the Hungarian frontier),for the Byzantines,where now the Serbs are posted.These Vlachs were brought from Romania("their king,Decebal"),it means that the frontier was even more northwards,north of the Danube,and,as expected, the Greeks took all of the land from the Bulgarians.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9n...sertum&f=false



https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...0bessi&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Kekaumenos also refers to Romanians'isolation, they lived in "inaccessible and inhospitable places",and the two clusters,the Aromanians and Daco-Romanians have a thing in common, the following semantic shift Latin civitatem(city)--->Daco-Romanian cetate,Aromanian tsitati,both used only for fortress;but the Istro-Romanian,Albanian or Dalmatian have preserved the Latin sense.


It means that,Kekaumenos, who was a general ,speaks about the Romanians only from a military perspective-if they are/were not in the Byzantine service,they don't exist.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/civitas#Latin

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The clearest proof for isolation comes from the fact that early Daco-Romanians never had the double-headed eagle as a symbol, Litovoi banner was simply the Byzantine Army shield,with the yellow-red stripes.

This ruler was 100% Proto-Romanian ,because his brother had a Latin name,Barbat.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wM0dZTNTjp...ui+litovoi.png



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mBO9BC71dyk

----------


## Dreptul Valah

He called the Vlachs "depraved", only because they practiced transhumance,the same meaning for the Crusaders," semi-barbarous Vlachs",who used this expression when they described the people, encountered in the Balkans, both very clear terms that demonstrate differentiation.


And ,for the "mixing in the Second Bulgarian Empire", the Romanians from Serbia are recorded by the Crusaders fighting en-masse for the Byzantines,in the period of the Asens' revolt.


Even the Vlachs from Bulgaria didn't have only one ruling group,see the confrontation between the Asens and Ivanko.

In reality, the Romanians have entered the Slavic or Byzantine bigger structures based on their own interests, the best proof is Dobromir Chrysos who alternatively sided with both the Greeks and Bulgarians.


An interesting character, beside the warrior stance,he must have had a lot of charisma*,because somehow escaped from the wrath of the Byzantine Emperor ,three times,after his constant betrayals,in one situation,he managed to convince him to be released from prison.

*man's charisma



https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9n...vlachs&f=false

----------


## gidai

Sorry! I admit I missed from the history classes or ... I had totally forgotten.



> The Byzantine Empire was known to its inhabitants as the "Roman Empire", the "Empire of the Romans" (Latin: _Imperium Romanum_, _Imperium Romanorum_; Greek: Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων _Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn_, Ἀρχὴ τῶν Ῥωμαίων _Archē tōn Rhōmaiōn_), "Romania" (Latin: _Romania_; Greek: Ῥωμανία _Rhōmania_)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
It seems that we all knew we were living in Romania here in Balkans and we were Romans (Romani-Rumâni-romaioi...), for almost a thousand years...__ That was until about 550 years ago? But some of them still remember until today.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Albanians had the same problem, firstly recorded even a bit later,apart from the Byzantine-Greek ignorance, the real reason was that the Bulgarians had a strong state and they definitely weren't willing to share their power.


The contacts between the Albanians and Romanians with the Bulgarians-Slavs must've been really tough,but on equal positions, the common elements that these groups were willing to share(on their meetings) were status and fashion,both the Slavs and the Romans,Paleo-Balkanics appreciated these things for hundreds or even thousands of years.


The prof of this,is that the Albanians and Romanians have developed the same words,with the same meanings,for the contacts 
with the Slavs.


These senses are highly ceremonial,such as
R. gata(ready)
R gati(to cook a speciality for a celebration, to dress nice,to prepare oneself)
R pregati(to prepare,a special food,or,for people,for a special event)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ct4C_cXmu90


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KR7DXirrVP8


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/gata

----------


## JajarBingan

> *No, we are not a mix of Slavs with Dacians*


lol, genetics disagrees, despite your personal wish

----------


## JajarBingan

> It is impossible to identify Dacians as we don’t have any reference point like an ancient autosomal Dacian sample, nor a single haplogroup. Therefore we can’t state that Romanians are “mostly Dacians”. We simply don’t know.


We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.

Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.

Everyone in the Balkans, together with mainland Greeks, are best modeled as 3-way mixtures of this Thracian, late Bronze Age Greeks and the medieval Slav from Bohemia.

I even created a calculator for this, Balkans K4

Population
Thracian + Greek
Slavic

Greek
92%
6%

Albanian
87%
13%

Bulgarian
70%
30%

Macedonian
65%
35%

Romanian
65%
35%

Serbian
60%
40%

Montenegrin
60%
40%

Moldovan
50%
50%

Bosnian
45%
55%

Croatian
35%
65%

Slovenian
30%
70%

----------


## mihaitzateo

This is the old flag of Muntenia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Voivodship.png
It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.

Oltenia comes the river Olt.
Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.


However, this is off-topic.

The intention of the author that opened this thread is to find out about the Aromanians ancestry, not about the Romanians ancestry.
Would be really interesting to see some deep clades analysis of the Aromanians paternal lines.
I am really curious what kind of R1B they have and what kind of I.

----------


## Fatherland

> We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.
> 
> *Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.*


What's the yDNA of that Thracian? Provided that they extracted yDNA.

----------


## JajarBingan

> This is the old flag of Muntenia:
> but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.


Most land is flat.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Dressing very beautiful was never a problem for hierarchical pastoralists, like Dacians,Thracians or Illyrians,they had lot of wool and quick minds to think at...models:)


They surely cared about their women.


https://www.google.ro/amp/s/pompeiin...n-pompeii/amp/

----------


## JajarBingan

> What's the yDNA of that Thracian? Provided that they extracted yDNA.


They didn't.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...1197103931&z=8

The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

* I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

IE,traditional Romanian blouse for women and girls,the word comes from Latin linea(linen):


http://www.almanahonline.ro/wp-conte...u-margele3.png

https://www.invietraditia.ro/wp/wp-c...-3-870x870.jpg

Woman dress,the Arges finest,it is found on the Thraco-Illyrian tombstones from the Zagreb museum,according to specialists:


http://artainromania.ro/wp-content/u...42-137x300.jpg


http://amfostacolo.ro/FOTO/GENUINE/d...40_21965_1.jpg

----------


## gidai

> This is the old flag of Muntenia:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Voivodship.png
> It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.
> 
> Oltenia comes the river Olt.
> Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.


Very true, I think that Walahia is a name given by strangers to this place.I have not heard anywhere in Romania nickname like  :Petrified: Wallachian. Ancient inhabitants called themselves Români or Rumâni. Even my grandparents used to call themselves Rumâni. 
In Romania is no Walah... or Valah surname. But is full of surnames like Munteanu, Olteanu, Moldoveanu and Ardeleanu.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

About some Pan-Balkanic Latin words

Latin major,maiorem,has the sense to big*(in size),large,great, in both Dalmatian(maur) and Romanian (mare),while the Western Romance languages have kept other meanings.


Romanian etymology was disputed,but I already proved,probably on this thread, ,because we have the expression "fata mare", literally ,"a big girl",that means a virgin,reached to maturity, and maiorem in Romance is connected to adulthood, here we got to the common point with Western Latin,before the sense split.


Overgeneralization of "bigger,more important" in the Balkans, Danube area and Illyricum comes from the apearance,in these frontier zones of the military commanders,that took the political control to become the so-called Illyrian Emperors, who moved the Capital to Sirmium,Constantine saying "Serdica is my Rome", Galerius claiming that the Empire should be called Dacian.



The Balkanic word is attested by Procopius in the Iron Gates area,on the Danube,Mareburgu(Big Fortress)**,the same form with the Romanian,very different from Dalmatian.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...dings/4B*.html



*the same sense with the Italian grande
**to be compared with Burgualtu,High Fortress.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/maur

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mare#Romanian


The development was triggered by the Dacian,Thracian substratum,l'd say.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Zph...%20big&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

About the skirts from Zagreb museum, if the English researchers call them Thraco-Illyrian,they were probably found in NE Croatia.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Most land is flat.


If you think Muntenia is lowlands, how about Netherlands : ) ?
Depends what you are understanding by most. If you understand by most more than 50% and flat what is below 100m altitude,that is possible.

Here is the physical map of Muntenia:
http://www.locatiicazare.ro/wp-conte...A-muntenia.jpg
Is very possible that 50% or more from the land of Muntenia is lowlands/plains.
Depends what is considered plains,now. Ploiesti is considered in the plains or in the hills?
Pitesti? I think Pitesti is considered to be in the hills.
The origin of the name comes from the mountains:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntenia#Originea_numelui

If you go from Bucharest to Giurgiu, you will notice that even in these "flat lands" some villages are having hills near them.
Not even Bucharest is on pure flat land, we have Dealul de la Universistate :) , Dealul de la Sincai/Tineretului metro station , dealul de la Cotroceni and so on :) .
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Spirii
:)
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Mitropoliei
:) :)
https://dreamtrips.ro/2011/05/palatul-cotroceni.html

So as you can see, Bucharest is not actually in pure flat lands but in a small hills area!
Did not number the hills from Bucharest to check if there are 7 as in Rome, but who knows ;) .


@Dreptul Valah:
Mate this thread is supposed to be about the Y DNA of the Aromanians.
No one is contesting the fact that our language is Latin.

----------


## Wonomyro

> IE,traditional Romanian blouse for women and girls,the word comes from Latin linea(linen): http://www.almanahonline.ro/wp-conte...u-margele3.png https://www.invietraditia.ro/wp/wp-c...-3-870x870.jpg Woman dress,the Arges finest,it is found on the Thraco-Illyrian tombstones from the Zagreb museum,according to specialists: http://artainromania.ro/wp-content/u...42-137x300.jpg http://amfostacolo.ro/FOTO/GENUINE/d...40_21965_1.jpg


 How do these dresses from the museum are related to the "Thraco-Illyrian tombstones"?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> How do these dresses from the museum are related to the "Thraco-Illyrian tombstones"?



They are not only from the museums,women from the country side still use them,those from Arges are considered the most beautiful,but they are found in other places from Wallachia,plus,Moldavia has something close.
In an English study,they spoke about it,there was a picture with a pillar,post,called perhaps Stella,that had a woman drawed with this kind of skirt.

EDIT

The blouses are something different, it has nothing to do with the pieces from the Zagreb museum,I have posted them,because they are worldwide used in fashion,for decades,in the 70's American celebrities and Brigitte Bardot,used to wear them.
@mihaitza
Don't push it.

----------


## Wonomyro

> They are not only from the museums,women from the country side still use them,those from Arges are considered the most beautiful,but they are found in other places from Wallachia,plus,Moldavia have something close.


 Ok, but what concrete feature of the blouses relates to Thracian thombstones? I've seen similar costumes related to other Slavs. Especially the white-red type in the first image.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Ok, but what concrete feature of the blouses relates to Thracian thombstones? I've seen similar costumes related to other Slavs. Especially the white-red type in the first image.


I have edited the last post to respond at this question.


There are lots of models,many of them geometrical, mostly with straight,straight angle,lines,some of them inherited, others,changed,for fashion.


Usually,most of these shirts had been all white or with little models,this kind is still widely in use.


The blouses,ie,can put some men into difficult situations,because,the woman's neck is very exposed,but the bust isn't that much,so you'll start to ask yourself some questions...and the response has to be quick.

 
That S-shape model from one skirt,I've seen on pieces,pottery or other,from the Bronze or Iron Age.

----------


## Aspar

> This is the old flag of Muntenia:
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Voivodship.png
> It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.
> Oltenia comes the river Olt.
> Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.
> However, this is off-topic.
> The intention of the author that opened this thread is to find out about the Aromanians ancestry, not about the Romanians ancestry.
> Would be really interesting to see some deep clades analysis of the Aromanians paternal lines.
> I am really curious what kind of R1B they have and what kind of I.


I can help you with some deep clades but not specifically with R1b or I!
I have done quite an extensive test on my DNA, I have test with BIG-500!
My subclade is determined as E-Y16729*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/
You can find my y-str markers, on the E-M35 project!
On the YFULL tree, I don't have a close match, or in other words, I don't share any other snp under Y16729, with the others who belong to the same subclade as me.
However, I do have a very close match on 67 y-str markers with a distance of 4!
I have done some investigations about this match of mine and I found out that he is from USA, however his more distant origin is from South Albania!
This guy declare himself as Greek!
Now the interesting part is, both me and him, have a very specific haplotype which is only shared by Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania and Stip, Macedonia which I found on yhrd.org!
The Aromanians from Stip, are also with origin from South Albania as they came in Stip as refugees only in 18th century!
I already posted about that in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...y/page19?p=544
Two other Italians from North Italy and one Szekely from Romania, also share our specific haplotype, although on minimal markers as the Aromanians do as well.
There is no doubt in me that I form my own branch under Y16729 with these Aromanians and my close y-str67 match!
Also, my paternal origins are from a village in a region, formerly known as Vlacho Meglen!
Vasil Kanchov, the Bulgarian ethnographer, had written for this village that it's a Vlach village which was in late stage of Bulgarization!
I have written about it in this thread of mine: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35552-E-y16729
He also puts this village in the group of Meglen-Vlach villages.
However this a mistake, because by my own research, I have found out that the village itself was formed by refugees from South Albania!
There is a village with a similar name in South Albania, Konckë!
The village is located in the Gyrocastro region and interestingly, I have two close a-dna matches from Thesprotia in Greece, just over the border, not very far away from Konckë!
It is worth mentioning that the difference between me(13) on one side, and my y-str 67 match and the Aromanians (12) on the other side is the marker DYS439 on minimal haplotype!
You can find the Aromanian haplotypes in the Bosh's study of 2006: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x
Also, it's worth mentioning that so far in the Balkans, Y16729 is found only in me, a Bulgarian from Strandza, South East Bulgaria and probably, the Aromanians in question with who I probably form our own branch under Y16729!
It's pitty that this very good thread has been hijacked by some Romanians!

----------


## Dreptul Valah

@Aspar
with this attitude, you won't stay long here.
And,for Kanchov and other warrior-farmers,I really think it's time to skip some meals.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> I can help you with some deep clades but not specifically with R1b or I!
> I have done quite an extensive test on my DNA, I have test with BIG-500!
> My subclade is determined as E-Y16729*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/
> You can find my y-str markers, on the E-M35 project!
> On the YFULL tree, I don't have a close match, or in other words, I don't share any other snp under Y16729, with the others who belong to the same subclade as me.
> However, I do have a very close match on 67 y-str markers with a distance of 4!
> I have done some investigations about this match of mine and I found out that he is from USA, however his more distant origin is from South Albania!
> This guy declare himself as Greek!
> Now the interesting part is, both me and him, have a very specific haplotype which is only shared by Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania and Stip, Macedonia!
> ...


Aromanians are also calling themselves Machedoni, from Macedonia.
So, it seems is not a legend that they call themselves Machedoni.
Wonder if those North Italians are having their Y DNA from Balkans, also, because this is how it looks to me.
Aromanian is a dialect of Romanian.Is not exactly Romanian language.
As physical look, Aromanians do not look very different from Romanians.
You will not see Aromanian looking Slavic or Germanic.
For Romanians, is not same.

----------


## Aspar

> Aromanians are also calling themselves Machedoni, from Macedonia.
> So, it seems is not a legend that they call themselves Machedoni.
> Wonder if those North Italians are having their Y DNA from Balkans, also, because this is how it looks to me.
> Aromanian is a dialect of Romanian.Is not exactly Romanian language.
> As physical look, Aromanians do not look very different from Romanians.
> You will not see Aromanian looking Slavic or Germanic.
> For Romanians, is not same.


It's only a minimal haplotype so the Italians might not be the same clade at all!
I have 12/12 y-str English matches who belong to totally different clade, S7461!

----------


## JajarBingan

> If you think Muntenia is lowlands, how about Netherlands : ) ?
> Depends what you are understanding by most. If you understand by most more than 50% and flat what is below 100m altitude,that is possible.
> 
> Here is the physical map of Muntenia:
> http://www.locatiicazare.ro/wp-conte...A-muntenia.jpg
> Is very possible that 50% or more from the land of Muntenia is lowlands/plains.
> Depends what is considered plains,now. Ploiesti is considered in the plains or in the hills?
> Pitesti? I think Pitesti is considered to be in the hills.
> The origin of the name comes from the mountains:
> ...


To be fair I'm not quite familiar with most of Muntenia, but on a map it just looks flat. I know that it's supposed to be mountainous around Sinaia, but that seems like a small portion of the total land.
When I visit Bucharest from Iasi, I usually go straight down through Vaslui, Barlad, Focsani, Buzau and then Bucharest. It's a very plainy view.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> To be fair I'm not quite familiar with most of Muntenia, but on a map it just looks flat. I know that it's supposed to be mountainous around Sinaia, but that seems like a small portion of the total land.
> When I visit Bucharest from Iasi, I usually go straight down through Vaslui, Barlad, Focsani, Buzau and then Bucharest. It's a very plainy view.


Well come to Bucharest via Targu Neamt - Piatra Neamt - Cheile Bicazului - Brasov - Sinaia - Ploiesti :) . Are 565km.
You will see plains only till Pascani and some from Ploiesti to Bucuresti.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Until quite recently, almost the entire Wallachian plain was covered by a dense forest, the Codrii Vlasiei have been much more bigger than that,covering also the plains from Buzau,except for the eastern end,Baragan,who was mostly steppe .



The forest area stretched south of the Danube ,in Bulgaria there is the Deliorman,south of the Romanian Teleorman county,both coming from Turkish Crazy Forrest,because there were too many hajduks in that area.



That's why,for instance,the Cumans had only settled along the Baragan and SE Moldavia, towards the Danube where they are recorded.
Most of the forest was cleared for agriculture during the Communist period.



This clip speaks about the stopping of the Ottoman advance into the "thick Vlasia Forest."



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another thing,especially the western part of the plain has very rich salt deposits(place names like Slatina proves),these are very important for sheep raising.


On the Danube shore,there was a fortress,city,towards Baragan,attested very early in Wallachia,called Orasul de Floci,Cetatea de Floci or Targul de Floci(Fleece Town,Fleece Fortress),that was the main market for sheep products.


The shepherds came from the Southern Carpathians and drove their sheep on the Baragan pastures, close to the city.
A very near place is called Vadu Oii,Sheep's Ford.


In the town was born Michael the Brave.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...he_Vlachs.jpeg



http://mjialomita.ro/wp-content/uplo...4/DSC_0045.jpg



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i..._bWIaYx7k7ngRk

https://adevarul.ro/assets/adevarul....05/646x404.jpg

----------


## LABERIA

> The article concludes with the following remarks:
> The evidence strongly suggests that Albanian Aromanians’ globalising
> identity confers an advantage to them over non-Aromanian Albanians. By renouncing a
> local identification in favour of one associated with more powerful States (Romania and
> Greece), that is, associated with ideas distant in space and time and therefore mystical
> and unchallengeable, they create access to scarce social, economic, political and cultural
> resources while profiting from new opportunities in the Albanian transition process.
> Besides creating a sense of exclusivity, they are able to shift identities: they can choose
> between different modes of identification, or they can attribute distinct significance to
> ...


And the conclusions are wrong because this paper is a pseudoscientific study. The only thing that people can learn from this so-called study is that in Albania does not exist a Greek minority, but this is something that we know long time before. 
Until now, apart for your tactic of jumping from one branch to another and never responding directly to the questions asked, you have told us and shown things that are not true, including a fake map.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another proof for heavy forestation, the Ottomans efforts to secure their big camp from ambushes,see the top of the page:



https://books.google.ro/books?id=6PO...oviste&f=false



This kind of tactics,to surprise the enemy in close field was something specific for all the Romanian states,for example the Wallachian victory at Posada or the battle from the Codrii Cosminului(Cosmin Forest),supported by the verb atine,that comes from Latin.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aține#Romanian



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batt...cle_Posada.jpg



Unfortunately, the history books don't say nothing about the average person,who had akey role in these kind of wars.



Friedrich Wilhelm Bauer,1778,"The Wallachians are usually tall people,strong-build,with a very good temperament,they rarely have diseases,and the plague,so common toTurks ,doesn't show up here almost never".



Jean Luis Carras:"The Wallachians and Moldavians are usually tall and robust ".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The hats of the Romanian soldiers(still used today) from the Posada battle are very close to the Maurovlach one:


https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...,_Geissler.jpg


We have still kept the word for cloth,panza,another evidence for the importance of the commerce with sheep products in Wallachia is the wealth that Mircea the Shepherd has gathered from this practice.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/pânză

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I agree. The most of the admixture must have happened during the early middle ages, probably during the Second Bulgarian Empire.



Despite the obvious regional isolation,the Romanians-Vlachs have kept very good connections between them.


For example,Ivanko has recruited in his army only "his fellow Vlachs", and "the Byzantine army refused to fight against(him)".


The Romanians-Vlachs from Bulgaria were a minority*,explaining why the Asens and Kaloyan were constantly seeking military support from the Wallachians and Cumans,located north of the Danube.


Kaloyan's title,The Emperor of Bulgarians and Vlachs has quickly switched to the Emperor of Bulgarians.


It is possible that,some of the Romanians-Vlachs that participated in the revolt didn't accept the dual ethnicity, proposed by the Asens from the start.


Another important thing,the Asens have conquered today's Serbia,a territory inhabited by lots of Vlachs that still fought for the Byzantines, against the Crusaders,for instance.


*the logic is very simple,while the Cuman raids could be stopped using various methods,in the Danube-Sava frontier, the things were way more complicated-the Hungarians had a quite important state.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=nYb...vlachs&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And these Vlach networks stretched until the Adriatic,the Persian historian Rashid-al-Din,says about the,Kara Ulag (Wallachia)country in which the Mongols-Tartars had entered,among the karaulag(black Vlachs=Wallachians) rulers he mentions Mislav,Miselav,a name apparently Croatian or Serbo-Croatian,a variant from Mojslav.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mislav_of_Croatia



We do know that there were Vlach merchants in the Dalmatian shore,Dubrovnik, etc.,they traded with the Venetians.



The archeologists have found Mislav place,it has typical Romanian,Orthodox, artifacts.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezerenbam_and_Mișelav


EDIT

Ilaut country is Tara Oltului,today's Tara Fagarasului,for long time part of Wallachia,as well as the mountain parts from Sibiu,Hateg,Caras-Severin.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Further evidence:



"When,on March 18th,1436,from the fortress of Klis ...issued a charter to Vlachs from Cetina zhupa".



https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sourc...IEmQ5rUnKIqBNo



"Family names in this charter are not Roman:...Prodanic".



Prodan appears in the document from 1220,where it is recorded the Vlachs names that participated at the foundation of the Zica monastery,in Kosovo.


I think this map is more than clear:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...025-en.svg.png

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Vlach names from the Zica charter:

Latin

Bun,Bunila(bun-good)

Rug(rug-pyre)

Singur(singur-alone,the only)

Mic(mic-small)

Serban(serb-serf,already discussed)

Pacen(pace-peace)

Margheha(margea-glass bead)

Bucea(buca-cheek)

Dacian

Bucur(bucuros-happy)

Adapted Slavic,typically Romanian

Neagu,Neagoe,from a Slavic root *neg-,like in the inherited vocabulary,e switched to ea.

Radu,Slavic Rado-,typical u suffix generally,including the Slavic loans

Very beautiful and expressive names.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

IMO,these are also Romanian,Latin:

Velean,Romanian Valean,Valeanu(vale-valley),Serbian kjelator-Romanian calator


Gela,feminine of Gelu,from Georgela,Georgelu



Dragasan,an interesting name ,Slavic root ,typical Romanian suffix, there is also a town called Dragasani,in Valcea county(a big center of the early Wallachian state).

Some Slavic names have been rhotacized,both the l-r and n-r:

Milos-Miros
Nenad-Nerad

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The historical records prove the existence of totally different political structures in both Wallachia and Bulgaria.



If Kaloyan has accepted Pope's suzerainty and the Bulgarians had very good relations with the Hungarians,with constant intermarriages within the ruling class,not the same thing can be said about the Wallachians,where at the same period,the Walati(Vlachs) were the clear majority in the Catholic Diocese of Cumania,who relentlessly refused conversion.



The Hungarian chronicles speak about the extreme resistance of two Wallachian Vlach brothers, Litovoi and Barbat,who were involved with the king in land disputes, most likely in the Transylvanian part of Wallachia, both brothers were defeated in battles,the first,killed,the second,taken prisoner,then ransomed.



The name of these leaders proves again the military role of the Romanians-Vlachs,as they are recorded in the Byzantine documents,Litovoi is Slavic for Fierce Warrior, while Barbat,is the Romanian-Latin for man.



Later, Basarab,Vladislav(Vlaicu) and Radu I have defeated the Hungarians, clearly, and some of them,many times.
Vlaicu or Radu had convinced the Hungarian king to release the Bulgarian tsar Stratsimir,after his death,we have the inscription, the Wallachians had taken the Vidin Tsardom.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...vlachs&f=false



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma...ese_of_Cumania

----------


## LABERIA

> IMO,these are also Romanian,Latin:
> 
> Velean,Romanian Valean,Valeanu(vale-valley),Serbian kjelator-Romanian calator
> 
> 
> Gela,feminine of Gelu,from Georgela,Georgelu
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting. You have names like Gela and Miros. 
In Albanian is Gjela. ⟨*gj*⟩ is used in the Albanian alphabet for the voiced palatal plosive /ɟ/, though for Gheg speakers it represents /dʒ/. In the Arbëresh dialect, it represents the voiced velar plosive /ɡʲ/.
It`s a name used by catholics in North. The origine, i think is a short for An*gj*elina, Albanian form of the name Angela. Meanwhile for men the form of name is Gjel*osh*.
The origine of the name Miros is not Milos and it`s not slavic but probably Albanian. In Albania this name is pronunced Mirosh. In Albanian, *sh* represents [ʃ]. It is considered a distinct letter, named *shë*, and placed between S and T in the albanian alphabet. 
There are different Albanian names with the suffix osh, ush and ash, thus bardh-bardhosh; kuq-kuqalosh; vogel-voglush, voglosh. The suffix is also used with names; thus *Gjelosh*, Belush, Marrash, Tanush, Mirush.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Milos and Nenad represent the local influence,I know the Serbs use them,not my concern anyways,unlike the other names, these two were not preserved in Romanian,that's why I put them in other part of the text.


Be careful what are you saying, I haven't forgot you.

----------


## LABERIA

> Milos and Nenad represent the local influence,I know the Serbs use them,not my concern anyways,unlike the other names, these two were not preserved in Romanian,that's why I put them in other part of the text.
> 
> 
> Be careful what are you saying, I haven't forgot you.


Nenad is clearly Slavic. 
Yeah, i remember your story with your grandfather, furadan, etc, something like this.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Basarabs have ultimately inherited the power from Litovoi,no doubt about that,they had the same banner,with red-yellow stripes.


Basarabs,Draculesti branch

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...lesti_Arms.svg


Litovoi

https://thraxusares.files.wordpress....ng?w=795&h=946

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The name Barbat possibly seems unusual, however,in Romanian, the word for man also means brave,courageous, daring.


An example, from the shepherd ballads,"are caini mai barbati",meaning,"he has dogs more manly ".

In Romanian ,the Latin masculus has been replaced by barbatus,bearded,and the form mascur only means a male pig.

The beard as a sign of manliness was probably adopted in the frontier army from the Danube,where many Paleo-Balkanics were enlisted.

IMO,this is related to another clearly military semantic shift,Latin falx,falces,a kind of weapon,very used by the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians, turns to Romanian falca,a jaw.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falx


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/falcă

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Falx is the same with the Dacian sica,Illyrian thike,thika,many of these weapons are actually not curved,but straight-angled,resembling the Dinaric jaw:


http://lh4.ggpht.com/ScaryNitzi/SFWD...JPG?imgmax=640


http://globalreplicas.com/en/tracki-...ica-asw35.html


Thracian rhompaia has a close form,the word is very interesting ,cognate to Latin rumpo.

----------


## gidai

> Most land is flat.


 Not realy. This is what we see from the center of Muntenia.  :Grin: 
Muntenia deserves its name.

----------


## gidai

*Region/Y-DNA
*
*I
*
*R1a
*
*R1b
*
*G*
*J2*
*J1
*
*E
*
*T*
*Q*
*N*
*Others
*

*Vlachs/Aromuns*
20.5
10
21.5
3.5
24.5
0.5
16.5
2
0
0
1

*Albania*
15.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0


*Bulgaria*
26
17
11
5
11
3
23.5
1.5
0.5
0.5


*Croatia*
43.5
24
8.5
2.5
6
1
10
0.5
1
0.5


*Greece*
14.5
11.5
15.5
6.5
23
3
21
4.5
0
0


*Italy*
10
4
39
9
15.5
3
13.5
2.5
0
0


*Macedonia*
27.5
13.5
12.5
4
14
2
21.5
1.5
0.5
0.5


*Romania*
34
18
15.5
3
13.5
1
14
1
0.5
1.5


*Serbia*
42.5
18
6
2.5
9
1
15
0.5
1
2.5



I chose from here _https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml_ some regions that seemed to me with the haplogroups distribution closer to the Aromuns. Croatia and Serbia seem the most distant. What do you think would be closer?

----------


## mihaitzateo

> We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.
> 
> Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.
> 
> Everyone in the Balkans, together with mainland Greeks, are best modeled as 3-way mixtures of this Thracian, late Bronze Age Greeks and the medieval Slav from Bohemia.
> 
> I even created a calculator for this, Balkans K4
> 
> Population
> ...


Romanian mate, I think only the most Eastern Shifted Romanians,which are a minority (maybe 1 in 10) have 35% of genetics of Slavic+East Germanic origin.
For the moment, most genetic testing is not making difference from South Baltic and other Baltic admixture, which should be the original Slavs admixture and Eastern Germanics speakers admixture.
The East Germanics should have come from somewhere in current SW land of Poland and SE land of Germany.
Old inhabitants from near Bucharest and from South Prahova county had mode light haired/light brown haired people.
Suppose most there were of East Germanic origins.
Maybe if you would have taken blonde and light brown haired people from South Prahova county and near Bucharest, about 20% of the people here were blonde and light brown haired.
In Vaslui county people are clearly most blonde from Romania and black hair there I suppose is quite rare.
But rest of Romanians are as rule dark or medium browned hair.
Seems the black haired one are mostly of Celtic ancestry.
Slavs were not dark brown , were either blonde either light brown haired.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Another proof for heavy forestation, the Ottomans efforts to secure their big camp from ambushes,see the top of the page:
> 
> 
> 
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=6PO...oviste&f=false
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of tactics,to surprise the enemy in close field was something specific for all the Romanian states,for example the Wallachian victory at Posada or the battle from the Codrii Cosminului(Cosmin Forest),supported by the verb atine,that comes from Latin.
> ...


This kind of tactics is rather related to Celts/Gauls not to Romans.
As a personal opinion, Dacians were more closed to Gauls/Celts as ethnicity, than to Romans.
To shatter a little the theory that most Romanian language comes from Latin (it comes from Dacian, which was Eastern CeltoItalic language, closer to Italic, than to Celtic):
English: raven
Romanian: corb
Albanian: korb
Old Gaelic Scottish: korbie
Latin: corvus
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/corbie_n
And to show even more clear that this word is from Dacian and Gaelic languages and not from Latin:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corbie
So in Old French they were telling to the raven corb, exactly as the Romanians and Albanians are telling.
So, lol Albanians, Romanians and Gauls from France, all have taken Corvus from Latin and started to pronounce it as corb.
/facepalm
I suppose Gaelic Scottish language took corbie from Latin also, they somehow started to pronounce corbie instead of corvus, right?
This is not plausible at all.
So, in France there is even a commune called Corbie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbie
So this word is from Dacian language and not from Latin.
:)
Another Romanian word that is exactly cognate to Gaelic languages:
English: big
Romanian: mare
Latin: magnum
Irish Gaelic: mor
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C3%B3r#Irish - meaning big, large, great, exactly,exactly same meaning as in Romanian
(Stefan cel Mare)
In the other Gaelic languages is still mor.

So this word in Romanian more, more plausible comes from Dacian and is cognate to Gaelic languages.
And the examples could continue,but I will give only one more example:
We call a large part of Tara Romaneasca Oltenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oltenia
Now a simple proof that this name is also cognate to Gaelic languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olten

----------


## mihaitzateo

Dreptul Vlad if you continue with the Putin propaganda here that our language comes from Latin and that, you know, Dacians were rather related to Slavs.
I kindly require you to write us something in Romanian, with diacritics.
Hai mai Românule să te vedem, cum vorbești tu in limba noastră.
Aromânii provin din daci și traci, nu din coloniști romani.

----------


## gidai

deleted...................

----------


## gidai

> *Region/Y-DNA
> *
> *I
> *
> *R1a
> *
> *R1b
> *
> *G*
> ...


I did an exercise calculating the percentage differences of each haplogrup for each country to those of the Aromanians, and then I gathered these differences. 

Results: (the smaller the difference, the closer Y-DNA results are)
_Greece ....... 30
Albania ...... 32
Italy .......... 34,5
Bulgaria ..... 38,5
Macedonia .. 38,5
Romania ..... 45
Serbia ........ 69
Croatia ....... 79,5_

Considering the type of spoken language (romance) I also made a combination cumulating the percents of Romania and Italy and dividing it by 2.
The difference obtained in this case from Aromanians is even smaller.
_Romania + Italy ... 26,25_
Interesting! I'm not surprised. 

p.s. 
Anyway, I think from an autosomal point of view it might be differences.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I think that I was more than clear,keep your chatting and provocations for the young men of your age...

And another thing,I understand that the Hungarians have a more open way to talk,but you probably passed these limits a lot.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> I think that I was more than clear,keep your chatting and provocations for the young men of your age...
> 
> And another thing,I understand that the Hungarians have a more open way to talk,but you probably passed these limits a lot.


I wrote you messages in Romanian via Reputation and you did not replied anything.
And threatening people (as you just did here) just because something they told is typical to East Slavs, mate, not to Romanians.
I have actually talked to Aromanians and an Aromanian told me about "Tatal Nostru" from Welsh Country Celts, which is similar to Romanian:
https://www.activenews.ro/prima-pagi...ba-celta-97625
The Aromanians do not think they descend from Roman Empire colonists, but that they are natives from this area.
Guess why they are calling themselves Machedoni.

If you know Romanian and a little Aromanian you will notice that this version of "Tatal Nostru" from Welsh people Gaelic language,from Wales, is actually closer to Aromanian than to Romanian.
Guess what some Aromanians are even scoring 36% R1B.

Guess another thing, there are Albanians that are scoring on autosomal DNA same with Central Italians!
Take Dibran from this forum.
Because Romans and Thracians were very, very related people.
Ilyrians were between Romans and Thracians.

The resemblance of Romanian to Italian is very very weird and cannot be explained by the Latin common origin theory.
Ok, leave aside Italian, let us take French which is Galo-Romance or some South Italian langauge, as Sardinian.
Romanian is actually closest to Sardinian from other languages, closer to Sardinian, than to Italian.Is only 2nd closer to Italian.
Why?
Not because Dacians spoke a language that was closed to Italian?

How a person that studied 4 classes in the school and does not speaks Romanian correctly learns in less than 1 year Italian ?



The theory that all Romance languages are coming from Latin makes exactly same sense with telling that all Slavic languages are coming from Russian :) .

Now coming back to Aromanians, all got plenty of I, which I supposed is mostly I2 or so.
So they are natives from Balkans.
Not colonists from Roman Empire.
Because I2 brought by Slavic migration of 600 AD was from assimilated Thraco-Gothic people,living North of Romania.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And for overanalyzing, you're definitely doing on your own,actually, other people's risk,it's not the first time...


I see that you and your buddies like Deymark/Mount Y,Search-star,from the Andromeda, wide-space, keep doing the same things.


As for Putin's men,they have some initiative,but I definitely didn't reach to any solution...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Romanians, Moldavians included,plot near the South-Slavs for a few reasons:


-common Paleo-Balkanic genes

-some common South-Slavic ancestry,in our case,mostly assimilated into Romanian-Vlachs in the early period,however, the genetic distance between Romania and Northern-Slavic countries, like Poland and Belarus is huge.


This can be explained by the fact that 90% of the lowland settlements from roughly the SE area,the Moldavian and Eastern Danube plains have disappeared at the time of the Pecheneg-Cuman invasions,separating the populations with Slavic ancestry.


Plus,most of the Romanian plain was covered by forests, I have already discussed about it,perhaps, it was a good reason for the Slavs to find more fertile terrains,south of the Danube.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/


-various populations-groups mixtures

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the Carpathian basin,Transylvania included ,these agricultural populations that had certain amount of Slavic ancestry had survived, see the Moravian state,unlike the outer Carpathian area.


That's why the Transylvanians get also some Central European admixture of Slavic origin,shared with the Poles,Czechs,Hungarians,even Ukrainians, unlike the Wallachians and Moldavians that cluster with the Central Balkan populations,like Serbs, Kosovars,Montenegrins,Bosnians ,Macedonians,partly Croatians and Greeks,Albanians from north and Western Bulgarians,data from My heritage.


The dispersion also proves the Romanians-Vlachs coming from north of the Danube,lack of this set of genes in entire Bulgaria or in the whole area of the Despotate of Epirus.


The lack (or way less)of compatibility with South Albania proves that the Tosks came from other place,most likely from Northern Albania, they were involved in further mutations when settled in the southern parts or simply were not involved anymore in the genetic process es that happened after their departure,because they clearly inherited lots of Proto-Albanian genes,despite the Coon's malicious remark,many of them are actually quite fair haired and Dinaric,IMO,even less foreign-admixed than those from the north.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> The Romanians, Moldavians included,plot near the South-Slavs for a few reasons:
> 
> 
> -common Paleo-Balkanic genes
> 
> -some common South-Slavic ancestry,in our case,mostly assimilated into Romanian-Vlachs in the early period,however, the genetic distance between Romania and Northern-Slavic countries, like Poland and Belarus is huge.
> 
> 
> This can be explained by the fact that 90% of the lowland settlements from roughly the SE area,the Moldavian and Eastern Danube plains have disappeared at the time of the Pecheneg-Cuman invasions,separating the populations with Slavic ancestry.
> ...


And how some Aromanians are having 36% R1B?
We do not know what kind of R1B is.
We can suppose that R1B-M269, to which R1B-L23 also belongs, are also natives to Balkans.
Anyway it worth mentioning that some Aromanians from Balkans have highest R1B percentage.
Is the Aromanians from Albania.
What would be really nice to do, by someone with more diplomatic skills to talk to Aromanian community so they take deep clade Y DNA testing for 1% of the living Aromanians, chosen statistically.

----------


## Fatherland

> Falx is the same with the Dacian sica,*Illyrian thike,thika*,many of these weapons are actually not curved,but straight-angled,resembling the Dinaric jaw:
> 
> 
> http://lh4.ggpht.com/ScaryNitzi/SFWD...JPG?imgmax=640
> 
> 
> http://globalreplicas.com/en/tracki-...ica-asw35.html
> 
> 
> Thracian rhompaia has a close form,the word is very interesting ,cognate to Latin rumpo.


Exactly the word we use for blade/knife.

----------


## Dibran

> Exactly the word we use for blade/knife.


I have an obsession with collecting swords. Combative and decorative. Including a re-curve hunting bow. I was born in the wrong age lol.

----------


## Balkan1992

I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.

Attachment 10541Attachment 10542Attachment 10543Attachment 10544Attachment 10545

----------


## Johane Derite

> I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.
> 
> Attachment 10541


"Only the remnants of a Latin-speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Balkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. [14] The name 'Vlach' was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs' own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani).

As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians: their two languages (which, with a little practice, are mutually intelligible) *diverged only in the ninth or tenth century*. [15] While Romanian historians have tried to argue that the Romanian-speakers have always lived in the territory of Romania (originating, it is claimed, from Romanized Dacian tribes and/or Roman legionaries), there is compelling evidence to show that the Romanian-speakers were originally part of the same population as the Vlachs, whose language and way of life were developed somewhere to the south of the Danube. *Only in the twelfth century did the early Romanian-speakers move northwards into Romanian territory*. [16]



Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways. First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.) [63] The substratum elements include both structural matters, such as the positioning of the definite article as a suffix on the end of the noun, and various elements of primitive Balkan pre-Latin vocabulary, such as copil ('child' in Romanian) or kopil ('bastard child' in Albanian). [64] If the links between the two languages were only at substratum level, this might not imply any geographical proximity - it would merely show that proto-Albanian was similar to other varieties of Illyrian spoken elsewhere. But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas."


Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs
Chapter 2 in Noel Malcolm's Kosovo, a short history (Macmilan, London, 1998, p. 22-40)

*LINK:* http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html#16.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Exactly the word we use for blade/knife.



All the Romanian-Vlachs have a Latin word ,cutit,probably related to coltello or from ascutit,that means sharp.


The villages from my area are of shepherd stock,they came from the mountains,my ancestors, for example from Muntii Buzaului and Vrancei in1850's,1870's on the old transhumance routes.


There were very though rivalries between these settlements, until 10-15 years ago,before they start shutting down the local pubs and clubs,when the "intruders" came for the local girls ,things degenerated into fightings, usually these people were "awaited".


In the very most of the cases,only fists and bata,shepherd's bats were used,sometimes even wooden planks from the fences.
The knife was extremely rare pulled,only when somebody got really mad.


There are records from the Moldavian and Wallachian voivods,that killings because of fighting were very severely punished and the use of metal blades forbidden.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> All the Romanian-Vlachs have a Latin word ,cutit,probably related to coltello or from ascutit,that means sharp.
> 
> 
> The villages from my area are of shepherd stock,they came from the mountains,my ancestors, for example from Muntii Buzaului and Vrancei in1850's,1870's.
> 
> 
> There were very though rivalries between these settlements, until 10-15 years ago,when they start shutting down the local pubs and clubs,when the "intruders" came for the local girls ,things degenerated into fightings, usually these people were "awaited".
> 
> 
> ...


Just another word in Romanian that was supposed to come from Latin but is coming from our old Dacian language.
Romanian - cutit
Corsican Italian dialect - cutteddu
:)
Corsican is an Italic language, from the Tuscan family.
@Balkan1992
Please, for curiosity, take a little look at these Corsican languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallurese_dialect
To me it seems Aromanian sounds close to these languages.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Cuteddu is general in the South Italian speech.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cuteddu


And,
in Romanian, ager is the word for agile,both physically or in thought, keennes or wrath,it is also used for keeping things under surveillance...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Some of my great-great-grandfathers from here had lots of sheeps ,hundred ,hundreds each,but,like in Miorita,you don't inherit the herd, many of the shepherds switched to landownering.


Speaking of Miorita,it can be an Aromanian influence, since the shepherds used to cross Vadu Oii into Dobrogea and further into Bulgaria,even in Ottoman times.


There were alot of Romanian shepherds in Dobrogea,here and in Bulgaria they've met the Aromanian ones.


In any case it resembles some Macedonian-Slavic songs from the Sar mountains,for instance,SE navali Sar Planina,we do know that Tetovo had a Vlahoepiskop in the early Serbian state.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-hnD3Y73T4w



https://lyricstranslate.com/en/se-na...in-leaned.html



https://lyricstranslate.com/en/miori...ar-ballad.html


https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/r...094574409.html

----------


## LABERIA

> I also want to say my opinion, I a Romanian with Aromanian origins. First of all, the Aromanians do not come from the territory of the present Romania, they represent the old native population of mainland Greece, historical Macedonia and southern Albania. Genetically, they are slightly different from the Romanian, the Aromanians result in genetic tests with high percentages of "Greek," while the Romanians have the highest percentages of "Balkan / Slavic". Only those who know well both the Aromanians and the Romanians can make a comparison and one can see that the Aromanians have a more southern appearance, being very easy to pass as a true Greek or even Albanian, even Bulgarian, while the Romanians have a rather more Nordic with different influences. Aromanians from ancient times supported Orthodoxy and Greek culture, being the ones who spread Hellenism and Byzantine tradition both in the Balkans and in Romania and elsewhere, being constantly perceived and recorded in acts as "Greeks." One thing they have in common is the influence of the Eastern Roman Empire on the linguistic side, but each one has a different evolution. It is a shame  that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.
> 
> Attachment 10541Attachment 10542Attachment 10543Attachment 10544Attachment 10545


There are some inaccuracies in this your post. It`s true that some of the Vlachs are assimilated in Greeks especially after the creation of the Greek state, but not all of them. The same happened with some Albanians from South Albania, i am not talking about Arvanites. It`s a long story of how this assimilation happened, the role of the church, greek state, etc. But there was also the other side of the coin. 
A memorandum was sent to U. S. President Wilson and Secretary of State Lansing a few few days before a delegation of Albanian-Americans left for France to take part in the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. Copies of the memorandum were sent to the foreign ministries of the Allied Powers and their ambassadors in Washington. The aim of the text and of the delegation was to ensure the continued recognition of Albania as a sovereign state_._ This memorandum was signed by leading clergymen of the Albanian Orthodox Churches of America, among whom Fan Noli (1882-1965) of Boston. And there is something even about the Vlachs:




> On the other hand, it is a well known fact that the Rumanians of Pindus, or Kutzovlachs, have several times appealed to the Powers since the London Conference to be included in Albania and thus escape Greek oppression and misrule. 
> 
> For the Orthodox Albanians of America
> 
> Very Rev. Fan S. Noli,
> Rev. Naum V. Cere,
> Rev. Damian Angeli,
> Rev. Mark J. Kondili,
> Rev. Pando Sinitza,
> ...


Source:
*[published in: The Adriatic Review, Boston, Vol. 1, No. 3, November 1918, p. 97 104. Reprinted in: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 406-412.]
*
Also, haave a look here and maybe this can help you to understand better the history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princi..._of_the_Pindus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades_Diamandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaos_Matussis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_...41%E2%80%9343)




> It is a shame that many Romanians want to show that the Aromanians are Romanian, sinful and that other Balkan nations denies the native character of the Aromanians in the Balkans.


At least here in Albania nobody is trying to deny nothing to them, they have their schools and churches. You are trying to pass them as greeks.

----------


## Balkan1992

> There are some inaccuracies in this your post. It`s true that some of the Vlachs are assimilated in Greeks especially after the creation of the Greek state, but not all of them. The same happened with some Albanians from South Albania, i am not talking about Arvanites. It`s a long story of how this assimilation happened, the role of the church, greek state, etc. But there was also the other side of the coin. 
> A memorandum was sent to U. S. President Wilson and Secretary of State Lansing a few few days before a delegation of Albanian-Americans left for France to take part in the Paris Peace Conference of 1919. Copies of the memorandum were sent to the foreign ministries of the Allied Powers and their ambassadors in Washington. The aim of the text and of the delegation was to ensure the continued recognition of Albania as a sovereign state_._ This memorandum was signed by leading clergymen of the Albanian Orthodox Churches of America, among whom Fan Noli (1882-1965) of Boston. And there is something even about the Vlachs:
> 
> 
> Source:
> *[published in: The Adriatic Review, Boston, Vol. 1, No. 3, November 1918, p. 97 104. Reprinted in: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 406-412.]
> *
> Also, haave a look here and maybe this can help you to understand better the history:
> 
> ...


The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians. I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.

----------


## gidai

Unfortunately, there is very little talk about _genetics and haplogroups._ I said something about haplogroups, a page back, but there was no opinion!

_I think... History is written by political or religious interests of temporal leaders. Languages go and come, even in a generation or two. And... nationalisms are not genetic, but is related to the socio-cultural-educational environment in which we are born. These should not be such important topics on a genetics forum_.

----------


## Balkan1992

> Unfortunately, there is very little talk about _genetics and haplogroups._ I said something about haplogroups, a page back, but there was no opinion!
> I think... History is written by political or religious interests of temporal leaders. Languages go and come, even in a generation or two. And... nationalisms are not genetic, but is related to the socio-cultural-educational environment in which we are born.


My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi

----------


## gidai

> My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi


Am vazt ca multi romani au rezultate asemanatoare cu MyHeritage. Mie imi pare insa ca dau rezultate cam mari uneori, fata de altii, pentru Grecia si chiar Asia mica. Interesant este si 11% Baltic. Mai lipsesc 2 procente.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> My results from MyHeritage. I am a Romanian from Ialomita with some Aromanian ancestors and a part of Buzau County: 55% Balkan, 31% Greek, 11% Baltic, 1% ashkenazi


This Greek related admixture shows clearly Aromanians are people from Balkans, Thracians.
The East Balkanic admixture of Romanians is more Nordish admixture, from North of Danube.

----------


## LABERIA

> The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians.


It's not clear what are you trying to say in this part of your post. Try to elaborate it better. 



> I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.


I am not against that you want to promote your Aromanian identity, you have all the right to do it. But i don't think that this identity is in danger from the actions of Romania, but this part you can discuss with the other Romanian members here. To me seems that you are not trying to promote this your Aromanian identity. As i said in my previous post, you are trying to pass Aromanians as Greeks. This is something that we read around not only in forums but also in so-called "scientific papers". Both, Serbs and Greeks consider Vlachs not as an separated ethnic group but like social strata in medieval Serbia, i.e. Serbian shepherds or as latinised Greeks in Greece.
Some Aromanians and Orthodox Albanians were assimilated in Greeks. The first reason why some Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs were helenised is because neither the Vlachs nor the Albanians, for different reasons, did not have a National Church like the other peoples of the Balkans. And the role of the Orthodox Church in this assimilation process has been fundamental. It was the Church that started this process of assimilation, the most famous name that comes to mind now, is a devil man today proclaimed Saint, Cosma di Aietolia. There are many stories of his activities and others like him in South Albania or Epir. Then, with the creation of national states, the church continued to play this role, but it was the Greek state that played the most important role in this story. It was used the Church, the Greek schools, the money and when there was resistance to this process other methods were used:
*1915
Mid’hat bey Frashëri:
The Epirus Question
- the Martyrdom of a People*



> During the operations, the Greeks did not fail to commit atrocities. Villages were burned down, peaceful and innocent inhabitants, including women, had their throats cut or were burned alive, other villagers were taken by force to make believe there was an exodus of people fleeing from the Albanian Government, to empty the country and sow the seeds of misery. Among their crimes, mention may be made of the assassination of the Vlach priest, Papa Haralambi of Korça, whose throat was slit in cold blood, with those of his brother and cousin. This assassination of this dignitary caused great outrage.
> And while such horrors, all a result of deceit, were being committed in Korça, the Greek newspapers were jubilant. They could not shower enough praise on the deed and were full of admiration for Greek sacrifice and patriotism. On 5 April, the Times announced that Korça was already in the hands of the Greeks. A few days later, the same newspaper, in its issue of 13 April, wrote the following: “…in the skirmish, Father Balamaci is said to have been killed or roughed up.” Imagine! The cowardly assassination of a priest dragged from his home is characterized as being “roughed up.”
> But all the more disgusting is the racket caused by the Greeks to cover up their cowardice. All the bells went into action. In an unscrupulous and shameless manner, the Greeks cried assassination and at the same time, they spared nothing, nothing could escape their fury. Reading Greek newspapers published last year is a bewildering experience. In the 10 April 1914 issue of the Times, we read the following report:
> “Athens, 9. Having disarmed the population, the Albanian gendarmerie carried out a general massacre. The Greek Government brought this fact to the attention of the Powers.”
> This is all. To hear the Greeks, you would think that the Albanian authorities were massacring the Christians! But what astounds us most in the above-mentioned report is the reticence. In referring to the inhabitants of Korça, they use the term “Christians” whereas everywhere else to refer to the Orthodox Christians of Albania, the Greeks always use the word “Greeks.” This is insanity typical of our southern neighbours. For them, everything Orthodox is of necessity Greek. It is impossible for the Greeks to distinguish between their religion and their race. As such, they regard Orthodox Albanians simply as Greeks, as they have done the Bulgarians, Vlachs and Serbs until recently. (6)


Father Bllamaci mentioned in the article, was a Vlach. The same treatment was also reserved for the Orthodox Albanian priests, only that here the list, for obvious reasons, is a bit 'longer. There were cases when the priest was killed and his head was sent to Athens as a trophy, exactly the same thing the Turks did in the past. 
*Father Stathi Melani*



> Stathi Melani (1858–1917) was an Albanian Orthodox priest who participated in the Congress of Manastir and helped spread awareness of the Albanian written language in southern Albania.[1] He was killed by a group of Greek nationalists near Përmet for insisting on the use of the Albanian language in the local Orthodox liturgy.[2]
> Instigated by Greek Metropolitans, Stathi was killed in 1917[18] on 24 December, Christmas Eve, by Greek nationalists (andartes)[19][5] near Përmet and his head was sent to Greece.[20][21]


But you are only interested about Aromanian identity, so i do not intend to continue to cite many of these delicacies reserved for the Albanian Orthodoxes. If these things happened to the priests of the villages and the cities, do you imagine what was happening with the simple people, how many other alternatives they had?
Then finally, arrive from one side Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers and others like her, members of the so-called historiographical school of the "Deconstruction of the Myths", i.e. deconstruction of the nations who after telling us that the Orthodox in Albania are all Vlachs, (something not true because among the Orthodox in Albania, the Vlachs are the second group after the Albanian Orthodox, the third group, the Greeks practically no longer exist), "explain" to these people what path they must follow in the future, i.e. become all Greeks and from the other side Mr. Lazaridis and others like him who declares these people as Greeks also from the genetic point of view. And so the cycle closes.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The hussars,gusars,are just the Romanian-Vlach light cavalry ,entering into "mainstream",
standardized in the Serbian state.


It is well-known that the Vlachs from the Serbian state were in charge of the royal and noble husbandry, horse breeding,etc.
Historians relate the type of Vlach called kjellator(calator,traveller ,in Romanian) from Serbia ,with the hoditai," highwaymen "from the Prespa-Kastoria area that were used by the Byzantines to kill ,catch,David,the brother of the Bulgarian tsar Samuil.


Actually, the hoditai Vlachs from Macedonia were performing tipcally light cavalry tactics,which is,chasing and ambushing,they were in charge with the roads guarding,a job that could've been done only by very fast and mobile squads,another historical source mentions the Romanians that have caught Andronikos,near Galicia,in 1165.


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl21_2.htm

----------


## Balkan1992

> Am vazt ca multi romani au rezultate asemanatoare cu MyHeritage. Mie imi pare insa ca dau rezultate cam mari uneori, fata de altii, pentru Grecia si chiar Asia mica. Interesant este si 11% Baltic. Mai lipsesc 2 procente.


The "Balkan" category really represents the Romanians, but we also meet the other peoples, Slavs and Hungarians. The "Greek" part, but I only saw it in some Romanians, and this category includes there my Aromanian ancestors came from Greece shortly before 1900 from my two grandmothers. In both of the grandmothers I observe a slightly Mediterranean aspect compared to the Romanian grandparents who have more pronounced Slavic traits even Baltic. This mixture took place in Buzau and Ialomita.
Categoria ,,Balcanica,, include intr-adevar romanii dar si alte popoare vecine,slavii si maghiarii. Categoria ,,greaca,, insa o intalnim numai la unii romani, mult mai rar, aici ar fii inclusi strabunii mei aromani din partea celor doua bunici ale mele, veniti din Grecia inainte de 1900. Am observat la ele doua un aspect usor mediteranean in comparatie cu bunicii din partea romaneasca, care au trasaturi slave mai pronuntate chiar baltice.Acest amestec a avut loc in jud. Buzau si Ialomita.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Other proves here,the word for sheep flock,turma,comes from the Roman cavalry unit,plus the foundation of a country in early Romanian ,also Latin,was called descalecat(dismounting).


Specific semantic shifts for cavalry exist in Romanian,Latin rubeus,Romanian roib,a kind of reddish horse.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/roib#Romanian



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/turmă#Romanian



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turma



It is clear that the Central European hussar unit has preserved its original 
purpose,chasing,catching,ambushing:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HeaQzfE2kHw



See Aleksic,"Medieval Vlach soldiers and the Beginnings of the Ottoman voinuks"

----------


## mihaitzateo

A curious thing that differentiate the Aromanians from Romanians, on autosomal DNA testing is that Aromanians have no NW Europe admixture.
Average Romanian have about 20% NW European admixture - most cluster to Welsh/English, some minor clustering to French, some minor clustering with Germans.
If Aromanians and Romanians would have split around 900-1000 AD, Aromanians should also have this NW admixture.
The split between Aromanians and Romanians should be before even 0 AD.
Italians also got at least some if not more NW admixture, same about the Greeks.
Another thing, it seems Thracian and Greeks were very related people.
What differentiated them was the language spoken and the way they were living.

Another thing,is possible that the tradition of Aromanians to marry only between themselves is very old, may be even more than 2000 years old.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

92,you're pushing your limit,you moron,it is clear that both the Greek and Balkan split from the same sets of genes.


The Balkan represents the area of the Paleo-Balkanic ancestry,that couldn't be effectively controlled by the Byzantines anymore.

----------


## Balkan1992

> 92,you're pushing your limit,you moron,it is clear that both Greek and Balkan split from the same sets of genes.
> The Balkan represents the area of the Paleo-Balkanic ancestry,that couldn't be effectively controlled by the Byzantines anymore.


Pacat ca sunt atat de multe persoane nationaliste din partea romaneasca(multi din jumatatea nordica sau vestica a tarii) care incearca mereu o asimilare fortata a aromanilor.S-au intrebat cumva daca aromanii isi doresc acest lucru, sa fie considerati romani? Veniti in sud-estul Romaniei (Constanta,Slobozia,Tulcea,Calarasi) sau in Balcani pentru a cunoaste aromanii ,,macedonenii,, si a le asculta parerile nu ii cunoasteti doar din carti si teorii de secol 19.

----------


## gidai

Este probabil cred ca inainte de caderea Romaniei si venirea Imperiului Otoman, in intreaga peninsula Balcanica sa fi fost o populatie foarte numeroasa de vorbitori de limba romanică / română ce se numeau pe ei Romani, Rumani sau Rumâni.
Probabil ca mare parte din ei au fost asimilati in zona treptat in timpul si dupa caderea Imperiului Otoman pana astazi. Singurii care si-au pastrat limba romanica aici au fost cei mai incapatanati...  :Grin:  Românii din partea de nord care au reusit sa tina piept cu brio invaziei Otomane si apoi sa se constituie ca stat, si mai ales Aromânii care chiar in centrul imperiului Otoman au reusit sa isi pastreze identitatea cred ca in special datorita mandriei lor si a casatoriilor in propriul grup.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"In other words,not only the ancestors of the succeeding Hungarian hussars,should be traced among South Slav warriors fleeing from the Ottoman Empire,but also the South Slav or Vlach population,that served in the royal army from Southern Banat regions might have belonged to them."



IMO,hussar comes from the Romanian cursa,meaning,a trap,ambush,which is an inherited word.


Cursar-the one who sets traps, who ambushes



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cursă



http://www.academia.edu/4141874/FROM...IAEVAL_HUNGARY




http://www.academia.edu/15193590/Med...10_pp._105-128

----------


## LABERIA

Turma havwe the same meaning also in Albanian, crowd, mob:

*turmë*

----------


## mihaitzateo

To anger Dreptul Vlah:
Romanians are telling to a dog "cutzu, cutzu".
Now, to which languages would be this cognate?
Methinks the resemblance with old Keltic languages, that are calling a dog *cu* is amazing :) .
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%B9
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...Celtic/k%C5%AB
Oh look in protoKeltic they were calling a dog ku!

I am pretty positive that if we make Y DNA testing to Aromanians, they score most of their R1B as R1B-M269 which should be shared between Thracians and Gauls/Keltic people.

And to anger even more Dreptul Vlah, from where the name of the county Galati, is coming?
Seems from how Romans were calling the Celts, Galati :).
As for Vrancea - that means, "the county of the ravens".
Bran, in most Celtic languages, means raven.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I don't know why you don't discuss the possibility that,regardless of its origins,a good part of I2a is not directly inherited in the Slavic countries, especially south of the Danube,but it came from the Romanian-Vlachs,given the clear historical context in the Byzantine Empire,especially after the Battle of Kleidion.


After Stefan cel Mare secured Moldavia by negotiating a very good peace with the Ottomans,things became more stable and in the 16th,17th centuries Moldavian men have enlisted into the Polish,Russian,Prussian and Swedish armies.



The soldiers that turned back from Prussia got the name Brandabur,after Brandenburg.

Some sources claim that the Swedish king Carol was guided to safety after the Battle of Poltava by his Moldavian mercenaries.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

For the realities in the Byzantine Empire, I present this specific scientific evidence;and I don't want to be over interpreted.


The Romanians have inherited the words for body parts from both Latin and Dacian,almost all from those intimate ,both for men and women also,except for the word for woman's genitalia,pizda,which is Slavic.


The anthropologic and ethnographic evidence suggests a clear continuity on the female part,with many Dacian and Latin elements preserved, like dress articles with specific names,cooking tools,products,and mythology,Zana(Diana;a fairy),Sanziana,Sanziene(Sancta Diana),women names,inherited in Romanian.


My opinion is that during the existence of the military Vlach category in the Byzantine Empire,the Romanians had some access to women from different ethnic groups, most numerous were the Slavs.


That's why the Slavic term became a "fashion" in the Romanian communities, not to mention that their women have always been appreciated for beauty and gallantry.


It is extremely interesting Orel's etymology for the Albanian word,pidh;according to him,although it ultimately has a Slavic etymology,it doesn't follow the phonetic rules,zd doesn't become dh in Albanian.

But,the thing is,that the Albanian dh is the same with the Romanian z,dz,for example


A modhullue,R madzare,mazare
A dhalle,R dzer,zer



In other words,the Albanian pidh was borrowed from the Romanians,more specifically, Daco-Romanians, because in Aromanian ,p switches to c,chizda.

----------


## mihaitzateo

The fact that our language and Aromanian language seems to be derived by Latin might bring the idea that Romanians and Aromanians should have some kind of relations to Y DNA of Latins.
The Y DNA of Latins is not known, for sure.
It is supposed that the Romans have spread R1B-U152.
Others are saying that R1B-U152 might have be spread mostly by some Gaulish/Celtic people.
Whatever it would have been R1B-U152 is part of the larger R1B-M269 branch.
R1B-M269 is associated by most with Celto-Italic speakers. Others are saying that from R1B-M269, R1B-S21 is West Germanic speakers marker, others like Maciamo are saying that R1B-S21 is Germanic marker.
I doubt that R1B-S21 is Germanic, marker,but whatever.

In Romania, R1B-U152 is not found at such high percentages, maybe under 1%.
Regarding other sub-branches of R1B-M269, in Romania:
What it seems that have in Romania, from our R1B, is R1B-S21/R1B-U106, at about 7.4%.
At least this is what a paper about Romanians from Neamt county has found.
R1B-S21 is supposed to be present mostly at West Germanic languages speakers.
However, is found also in significant percentages in Romance Belgian speakers.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0053731

Our language is clearly part of the Celto-Italic group, but , very very weird our Y DNA ,for the moment, seems distant from the Y DNA of Celto-Italic speakers.
Spain,France,Belgium,UK and the Republic of Ireland, all have over 50% R1B-M269 .
Italy got 39% R1B,totally, but if you take the Celto-Roman areas, like the Center and the North, there you find 53% R1B in Tuscany or 49.5% R1B in North Italy.

Netherlands and South Germany are also having significant R1B-M269.

Our I2-a seems that it might be clustering with Sardinia I2-a, but are quite different branches.
We have some kind of I2-din,but most of it is not similar with the I2-din found in ex-Yugos.

----------


## mihaitzateo

Another thing, Corsica has 49% R1B, which is very likely mostly R1B-M269.
Sardinia has a history which is based on the reality, that Roman Empire conquered them.
No idea if the current Sardinian language is related to old Sardinia language.
EDIT:
New genetic testing shows without any doubt that Romans/Latin speakers were very,very clearly from the Celto-Italic people and spread R1B:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...etic_diversity
In the village of Garfagnana from Tuscany, R1B is 76.2%.
Also, there is significant I1 in Italy, from the Germanic people that mixed with Italo-Celtic Romans and gave modern Italy population.
In two villages from Lazio, it was recorded I1 of 35% and 28%.
So, we Romanians clearly speak a Celto_Italic language, but we do not have so much R1B as someone would expect.
Another paternal line that should have belonged to original Italic Romans seems to be J2.What branch I have no idea.
Now J2 is quite diverse in Europe.

----------


## LABERIA

> For the realities in the Byzantine Empire, I present this specific scientific evidence;and I don't want to be over interpreted.
> 
> 
> The Romanians have inherited the words for body parts from both Latin and Dacian,almost all from those intimate ,both for men and women also,except for the word for woman's genitalia,pizda,which is Slavic.
> 
> 
> The anthropologic and ethnographic evidence suggests a clear continuity on the female part,with many Dacian and Latin elements preserved, like dress articles with specific names,cooking tools,products,and mythology,Zana(Diana;a fairy),Sanziana,Sanziene(Sancta Diana),women names,inherited in Romanian.
> 
> 
> ...


Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?


It's my idea;Orel decided that the Albanian word comes somehow from Slavic,because the IE root,compound, meaning, can only be found in the Balto-Slavic languages.


And he says:"However,when preceded by voiced consonants,*zd was dissimilated to ts,th",it should've been pith,if it was a direct borrowing.

----------


## gidai

> (...)
> Our language is clearly part of the Celto-Italic group, *but , very very weird our Y DNA ,for the moment, seems distant from the Y DNA of Celto-Italic speakers.*
> Spain,France,Belgium,UK and the Republic of Ireland, all have over 50% R1B-M269 .
> Italy got 39% R1B,totally, but if you take the Celto-Roman areas, like the Center and the North, there you find 53% R1B in Tuscany or 49.5% R1B in North Italy.
> 
> Netherlands and South Germany are also having significant R1B-M269.
> 
> Our I2-a seems that it might be clustering with Sardinia I2-a, but are quite different branches.
> We have some kind of I2-din,but most of it is not similar with the I2-din found in ex-Yugos.


Yes. Because I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage. 
I have exposed here: 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805
And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.

----------


## Gabriele Pashaj

> I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Because, under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs in the autosomal baggage. I have exposed here: 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805
> And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups who look close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.


I totally agree with you !! 


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

----------


## mihaitzateo

> Yes. Because I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage. 
> I have exposed here: 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805
> And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.


Maybe the old people of Romania were related to Sardinians.
And Dacians were bearing R1B-M269 clades and also other HGs like J2 and I do not know, maybe even some R1A.
Dacians conquered and assimilated the people from the area.
There is a peak of R1B in SE Romania, here R1B peaks over 20%.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Prince Charles lineages,from Vlad Tepes:


https://www.libertatea.ro/wp-content...7_7003.jpg.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

There are some words here,with exactly the same spelling and accents like in Romanian:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxGPNIN2RIs


From 4:13,


"Cine,ieu?", that's" Who,me?",the other one responded "io",pronounced very different than in standard Italian,but the same as the Romanian word.


ieu-the popular form for I/me,in Wallachia


io-the same meaning, north of the country

"Ca pecurari suntu",that's Romanian for " They are like shepherds."

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?




I don't think it's the case to be more Catholics than the Pope when it comes to dirty words,because the manliness has to be expressed also sexually,in any kind.*


Still,for the Romanian countryside society, this is a private thing,where people in isolated groups talk about it,the tone is manly,harsher, rougher,than usually, but quite serious and relaxed,surely not over explicit.



The other situation is when people get angry,but again it's only about wrath and force,not on writing anatomy manuals,we do have this word,aprig,from Latin apricus,it also means angry,tensed, and like etymology says heathen.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aprig




https://books.google.ro/books?id=wBd...uality&f=false



Since this is strictly a man thing,we are very harsh with women that try to use these words...


*any kind means different ways,not any situation

----------


## Dreptul Valah

To the Northern European populations,like Germanics or Slavs(ancient Romans included),manliness is generally a very static thing,they are mostly Judgers,and sexuality included comes as a burden that they have to carry, look what it happens when it drops:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boc...ian-woman/amp/



While for the Paleo-Balkanics it was about the intensity and attitude, these are Perceivers qualities, as I already explained.


On the loose personality test,I surely scored both Sensing and Intuition the most,equally, I'm a Perceiver.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Vikings,Celts,Paleo-Balkanics, were all Perceivers, look what it happened, when they caught the heavily organized Judgers on their very big blind spot,see The Eagle, 9th Legion.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

While the Perceiver is a natural leader with many followers, the Judger compensates with heavy training and indoctrination.



From the first category, Spartacus, somehow knew that he's,let's not be modest here, better,that's why didn't stop to make big goals,targets.



Teuta,a typical character for the more dominant Perceivers,since these can have a very high adversity or repulsion to Judgers,she plays a common game here,pretending to be "weaker"," her government had no right to try to stop people from engaging in it",very similar to Decebalus,in the Dacian Wars.


In reality ,these more dominant P's can mentally reach where no Judger dreams,that's why 


http://inyourfacewomen.blogspot.com/...teuta.html?m=1


a very different type of leader is Genghis Khan,many J's had a very harsh childhood.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Old Romanian word for grapes,aua,is still used in Wallachia, namely Oltenia,suggesting a weaker Slavization at the hierarchical levels in the area.



Another Wallachian term is branca,a hand,from Latin branca,very productive,the compounds are used for physical activities, meaning, to push somebody, to plunge,to dive.



Since in Latin branca is the word for paw,foot,the semantic shift proves the existence in Dacia and on the Danube of local Paleo-Balkanic soldiers,used for keeping the Frontier, scouting,tracking.



The third Wallachian word is paranga,a perch,a bar on which two people carry a weight, from Latin phalanga(that wereused for transporting siege weapons), see the Parang mountains,located on an area that belonged to Litovoi.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parâng_Mountains


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/branca#Latin



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/auă#Romanian




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/părângă

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Even in the 18th ,19th c. Old Romanian names were extremely common among the local Wallachian lords,like Viezure,Bucur(Bucuresti),Serban,etc.

----------


## LABERIA

> Even in the 18th ,19th c. Old Romanian names were extremely common among the local Wallachian lords,like Viezure,Bucur(Bucuresti),Serban,etc.


What is the meaning of the name Bucur, any ethymology available?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> What is the meaning of the name Bucur, any ethymology available?





From bucuros, a Dacian name that means happy,attested on the charter of the Zica monastery.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...edieval_Serbia




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bucuros#Romanian




Viezure is the Dacian word for badger.




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/viezure

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And,you'd better fix those letters...penguin,still not weaned,are you?

----------


## JajarBingan

> Maybe the old people of Romania were related to Sardinians.
> And Dacians were bearing R1B-M269 clades and also other HGs like J2 and I do not know, maybe even some R1A.
> Dacians conquered and assimilated the people from the area.
> There is a peak of R1B in SE Romania, here R1B peaks over 20%.


Where are your sources?

The Thracians were "related" to modern Sardinians only by having shared loads of Farmer ancestry, near Mycenean levels. That was pretty typical for those parts of Europe who had the numbers to absorb the Indo-European migrants without getting altogether genetically replaced by them.

We don't know what haplogroups Dacians might have beared. The only Thracian that is available is a female.
But it's clear that someone has to fill the void for E-V13, J2a1 and J2b2, for which the source populations are currently unknown.

My bet for J2a1 are on Minoans and late Myceneans (they are confirmed J2a1), who might have spread it further North to Romania, via Hellenised Thracians and Greek settlements.
J2b2 seems to peak in Albanians, but I'm not familiar enough with the situation to assert whether that's a bottleneck or the source for the proper origin. 
In Romania the split between J2a1 and J2b2 seems to be roughly 80/20.

E-V13 peaks in Kosovars, but given the number of samples, that's most likely a false signal. Otherwise, it's found at high levels in Bulgarians, Albanians and then Serbs. That looks to me like something Thracian/Dacian (however I'm also leaning towards R1b-Z2103 for the Dacians at least), but that's all speculation without data.

R1a and I2a are pretty self-explanatory. The varieties in Romania and the Balkans (R1a-CTS1211, R1a-M458, R1a-Z92 and I2a-CTS10228) are quite new and almost certainly attributable to the Slavic migrations of the early medieval period. Interestingly, Moldova is the outlier, where there is a noticeable presence for the Iranic/Scythian R1a-Z93.

Compared to the rest from the above R1b hasn't been studied properly, but Maciamo suggests that the majority of the available R1b samples in Romania are of the Z2103 variety. This draws a parallel to R1a-Z93, because they both seem to have an Iranic connection.

However, if we were to look at YFull for R1b, then there are 10 samples from Romania:
2x R-Y14300 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-V3476 (ZZ12 Yamnaya? spread across Europe)
R-DF13 (L21 Celtic)
R-L2 (U152 Italic)
R-Z9 (L48 Germanic)
R-Y23373 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-Y19860 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-Y11410 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-BY16680 (PF7562 looks Eastern European, but also present in Armenians)

So, even if the sample size is too small, the distribution amounts to 50% Scythian/Iranic, 10% Italic, 10% Celtic, 10% Germanic, 10% Eastern European and 10% all purpose).

-----------------------------

For regional breakdowns of haplogroups in Romania, you may use this repository:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

----------


## mihaitzateo

I have written previously my opinion, regarding I2-din:
Goths and Thracians lived together and mingled. People of Thraco-Gothic ancestry were assimilated somehow by the migrating Slavs.
After Slavs assimilated these people and stood in the current SW Ukraine and Hungary land,for a period of time, they migrated in the current of ex-Yugoslavia.
All ex-Yugos are scoring heavily East Balkanic admixture and some or significant Pannonia admixture.
Goths appeared in the lands of Romania around 250 AD or so.
However, Thracians were living North of Romania also.Goths migrated slowly, so Goths and Thracian lived North of Romania.
Later it seems they have been assimilated by the Slavs.
These Slavic speakers moved to the lands of ex-Yugo and from these Slavic speakers that mingled with locals appeared the South Slavs.

Romania I2-din is different from ex-Yugo I2-din.
Another thing, neither Romanians, neither ex-Yugos score much NE European admixture, neither much Baltic admixture.
So, actually neither the Goths neither the Slavs did not left too much genetic.

If Thracians mingled with Goths and adopted different things from Goths and later, were assimilated by a Slavic elite, does that make I2-din Gothic or Slavic?
I do not think so.

----------


## JajarBingan

> People of Thraco-Gothic ancestry were assimilated somehow by the migrating Slavs.
> 
> Romania I2-din is different from ex-Yugo I2-din.


They were assimilated based on what? Written sources, archaeological data, DNA samples? As far as I'm aware that's just a speculation.
Y3120 encompasses all of I2a1 in Romania and the Balkan countries and it split 2.2k years ago.
That's way too late for Thracians.

Goth was an umbrella term for Northern raiders. We have an Ostrogothic and Gepid sample and they look way too wild for both Germans and Balkan people.


Input
Group
Name
Details
Fit

1
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Germany_Medieval_ACD
AED_1108

5.426

2
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Tatar_Lipka2

5.803

3
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Tatar_Lipka5

6.01

4
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Average

6.155

5
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Tatar_Lipka3

6.306

6
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Tatar_Lipka4

6.714

7
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar_Lipka
Tatar_Lipka6

6.926

8
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar
tatars5

7.434

9
Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2
Tatar
tatars1

7.496






Input
Group
Name
Details
Fit

1
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Turkish_Istanbul
Average

4.539

2
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Greek_Crete
B_Crete-2

4.592

3
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Turkish_Kayseri
Kayseri24402

4.659

4
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Armenia_ChL
Average

4.741

5
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Greek_Crete
Average

4.797

6
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Armenia_ChL
I1632
BCE:4115
4.833

7
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Turkish_Kayseri
Kayseri24392

4.836

8
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Ashkenazi_Jew
ashkenazy3e

4.839

9
Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1
Greek_Central_Anatolia
G25003

4.848







> Another thing, neither Romanians, neither ex-Yugos score much NE European admixture, neither much Baltic admixture.




Based on what?


Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Mongols Et Al.
Pre-Slavic Greek World K4
Pre-Slavic Thracian World K4
Slavic Migration

1
Mongols et al. +Pre-Slavic_Greek_World_K4 +Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World_K4 +Slavic Migration
Romanian:Average

1.3414
0.83
10.83
45.83
42.5

2
Mongols et al. +Pre-Slavic_Greek_World_K4 +Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World_K4 +Slavic Migration
Serbian:Average

1.7051
0
9.17
42.5
48.33





Model
Sample
Details
Fit
Map
Balkans IA
Baltic IA
Gepid Serbia ACD
Ostrogothic Crimea ACD

1
Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Gepid_Serbia_ACD +Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Romanian:Average

1.986
Open Map
48.33
32.5
6.67
12.5

2
Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Gepid_Serbia_ACD +Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
Serbian:Average

1.9248
Open Map
46.67
36.67
3.33
13.33

----------


## gidai

> Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage. 
> I have exposed here: 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805
> And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.



I believe in what I have said before. Y haplogrups can decrease and grow very quickly because they are transmitted only paternally. 
Thus, a proportion of only 1% (newly appeared Y haplogroup) in a given population can pass 50% in only 300 years, without this meaning a mass migration of the population to replace the 99% native one. In 600 years, that new 1% Y haplogroup becomes dominant with 99% without replacing local population. 
That could be the main cause and explain many dilemmas .... If it's true what I say then it has an extraordinary impact on present theories.  :Rolleyes: 
_p.s._ _Knowledge, culture artifacts, can spread very quickly in different populations, almost the same as haplogroups, which does not mean that a population has replaced genetically other population.
_

----------


## JajarBingan

> I believe in what I have said before. Y haplogrups can decrease and grow very quickly because they are transmitted only paternally. 
> Thus, a proportion of only 1% (newly appeared Y haplogroup) in a given population can pass 50% in only 300 years, without this meaning a mass migration of the population to replace the other native one. In 600 years, that 1% becomes dominant with 99% without replacing local population. 
> That could be the main cause and explain many dilemmas .... If it's true what I say then it has an extraordinary impact on present theories.


That's actually a well known theory in genetics. What you have described is called a founder effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

----------


## gidai

> That's actually a well known theory in genetics. What you have described is called a founder effect.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect


Founder Efect is about something else.
I refer to an example https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805 where a population migrates to an area where they account for only 1% of the total native population, introducing a new haplogrup.

----------


## mihaitzateo

Actually, I2-din is a larger group of paternal lines.
It is I2-din A,B,C if we take the larger branches.
The type of I2-din that is very present at Romanians, is not present at South Slavs.
As simple as that.
2200 years ago is actually the time when Celtic people reached Balkans and Romania lands. Or around those events.
So is very possible that some events happened there with the Thracians and Dacians people that made I2-din mutation to appear.
I think there are I2-din branches that appeared exactly around 600 AD,or so, so these mutations happened when the Slavic speakers moved from Pannonia and SW Ukraine lands, to ex-Yugo lands.
There are people with I2-din basal in South America,of Iberian origins.
If I remember correctly what Goths and Dacians/Thracians migrated to Italy and Iberia,migrated before the Slavs came in 600 AD.
So how these people with I2-din basal got in Iberia?Either with the migration of Celtic languages speakers either with the migration of the East Germanic languages speakers.
If we take the formation of Slavic ethnicities, the formation of Slavic ethnicities is very linked with East Germanic speakers.
This is what I am thinking.
The Germanic people history might be a little more complicated, like Norse Germanics being more close in the recent past to the proto-Eastern Slavic people, East Germanics more close to proto-South Slavs and West Germanic speakers being close to Keltic languages speakers. West Slavic speakers seems to have been more close to West Germanic speakers.
According to Maciamo research, R1A-M458, R1A-Z280 and R1A-Norse (R1A of Vikings, present only at Vikings, more exactly on the shores of the Scandinavia people) are having a common origin.

There is no recorded war between East Germanic speakers and Slavic speakers.
Why?

There is also recorded that Croats were called "Goths" in an old Slavic writing.
If you want cognates between South Slavic languages and Gothic languages, from the basic words, you will find at least a few.
Even more weird are cognates between South Slavic languages and Swedish/Norwegian/Danish!
And I am referring to true cognates, that did not came from other languages.
Also, are cognates between what Thracian words are known and Slavic languages.

----------


## JajarBingan

> Founder Efect is about something else.
> I refer to an example https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post551805 where a population migrates to an area where they account for only 1% of the total native population, introducing a new haplogrup.


It's the same thing. Few to many

----------


## JajarBingan

> Actually, I2-din is a larger group of paternal lines.
> It is I2-din A,B,C if we take the larger branches.
> The type of I2-din that is very present at Romanians, is not present at South Slavs.
> As simple as that.
> 2200 years ago is actually the time when Celtic people reached Balkans and Romania lands. Or around those events.
> So is very possible that some events happened there with the Thracians and Dacians people that made I2-din mutation to appear.
> I think there are I2-din branches that appeared exactly around 600 AD,or so, so these mutation happened when the Slavic speakers moved from Pannonia and SW Ukraine lands, to ex-Yugo lands.
> There are people with I2-din basal in South America,of Iberian origins.
> If I remember correctly what Goths and Dacians/Thracians migrated to Italy and Iberia,migrated before the Slavs came in 600 AD.
> ...


I won't argue any longer, as I've explained myself already, but I hope that there won't appear new excuses when we get Thracian/Dacian haplos and they turn out to be something different than I2a.

----------


## mihaitzateo

Just for JajarBingan to know, the Celtic ancestry of North Moldavia should be significant.
No one ever did some serious genetic testing in that area,but is well known that a part of SW Ukraine was a region called "Galicia".
Guess from where it was called Galicia, I supposed is from the Slavs. Or wait, might be from Celtic tribes that settled there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)
So the things related to the Y DNA of Romanian people might be quite complicated.
I have seen in the past a test, regarding some paternal lines, of males from Neamt county and some regions of Republic of Moldavia.
Males from Neamt were scoring 40% I2-din, 5% I1, 2.5% I2B1.
R1A, around 18% or so, R1B 18% or so.
Now, what is even more weird, these Neamt males have 7.5% R1B-S21/R1B-U106 which is quite clearly associated with West Germanic speakers.
Republic of Moldavia males do not have so much R1B-S21/R1B-U106.
Also, Republic of Moldavia males have more R1A and less I2-din.
Etc.

A thing, in Vaslui county, most people are either blonde, either light brown either medium brown haired.No, you will not see this thing on the blondism maps of Europe.
Black hair is almost absent in Vaslui county.Hope that JarJar is confirming this, since he is living in Iasi .
No one ever did genetic testing there. There is known that Stephan the Great, a great king of Moldavia, brought from the lands of current Ukraine 100.000 - males with their families, gave them land and money, so they build houses and made them free peasants, because Moldavia did not had enough peasants to work the land.
That happened around 1500 AD - maybe these people from Vaslui county are mostly from those people from Ukraine.

Another weird thing, people from North Moldavia,more exactly Bukovine are most dark haired Romanians!
88% of the people living in Bukovine are dark brown or black haired! And their skin color is very light and 30% of them have pure blue eyes.
Average Bukovinan cannot tan, she or he have 3 skin color on Luschan scale and lots of them have a reddish tone at their skin.
No one ever cared to do genetic testing on Bukovine males.
EDIT:
Ok, maybe mister Coon exaggerated a little when he found 88% of the people of Bukovine with black hair or dark brown hair, but they are darkest haired Romanians, anyway.

----------


## gidai

> It's the same thing. Few to many


Founder Efect is about a small part of a population that become* reproductively isolated*. 
I refer to a small population that *interbred with a larger one*.  :Smile:

----------


## Wonomyro

> There is also recorded that Croats were called "Goths" in an old Slavic writing.


 They were called Goths by the local non-Slavic authors. There could've been different reasons for that, most likely an anachronism. They probably looked like their prredecessors in Dalmatia - Ostrogoths.

----------


## JajarBingan

> Just for JajarBingan to know, the Celtic ancestry of North Moldavia should be significant.
> No one ever did some serious genetic testing in that area,but is well known that a part of SW Ukraine was a region called "Galicia".
> Guess from where it was called Galicia, I supposed is from the Slavs. Or wait, might be from Celtic tribes that settled there.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)
> So the things related to the Y DNA of Romanian people might be quite complicated.
> I have seen in the past a test, regarding some paternal lines, of males from Neamt county and some regions of Republic of Moldavia.
> Males from Neamt were scoring 40% I2-din, 5% I1, 2.5% I2B1.
> R1A, around 18% or so, R1B 18% or so.
> Now, what is even more weird, these Neamt males have 7.5% R1B-S21/R1B-U106 which is quite clearly associated with West Germanic speakers.
> ...


We'll see, at some point most things will be answered and get backed up by data. In terms of pigmentation, I never found it important to actually do my research on this. But generally, people might have lighter complexions on average in the North, be it East or West.

Here are some people from the Northeast: 
Botosani - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/afc-botosani/10Iasi - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/acsm-politehnica-iasi/8

Southeast:
Constanta - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/fc-viitorul-constanta/6

South: 
Calarasi - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/afc-dunarea-2005-calarasi/18Giurgiu - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/afc-astra-giurgiu/3Bucuresti - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/cs-concordia-chiajna/11

Northwest:
Cluj (some of those with Romanian surnames literally look Hungarian to my eyes  :Laughing: )- https://lpf.ro/cluburi/fc-cfr-1907-cluj/13

West:

Sibiu - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/afc-hermannstadt/19Medias - https://lpf.ro/cluburi/cs-gaz-metan-medias/14

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> In both of the grandmothers I observe a slightly Mediterranean aspect compared to the Romanian grandparents who have more pronounced Slavic traits even Baltic. This mixture took place in Buzau and Ialomita.




I know what are you trying to say here,in reality,many Balkan settlers returned to their homelands,while it is recorded that precisely these were transfered en-masse by the Russians in Southern Ukraine as farmers,see Petro Poroshenko's ancestry,after the Russian-Turkish wars from early 1800's.



Shortly after,the Phanariotes had lost the power in 1821,The Wallachian Uprising,because they had no longer support, especially that many of the Arnauts were locally recruited,often even from the hajduks.
The importance of the hajduks is underrated,they were in very high numbers in that period,with many places to hide even (or especially)in the plains,in the very large forests,like Codrii Vlasei
Even the Austrians had mainly recruited them for the local troops,because they were extremely harassed by their raids,however, because of these,they left Oltenia in record time.



The places of the Balkanics were gradually taken also by the mountaineers,through transhumance or land granting.
Baltic could have come with the shepherds from Brasov, because the Moldavian (especially those from Vrancea)ones were very Dinaric.

Many villagers from my area don't have traceable Germanic,Slavic or Turkish strains,but the rough Dinaric that is common to shepherds.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

@ Jarjar
Statistics is generally a good thing,but it's more complicated than pure mathematics,because the most important is to establish the overall, common ,background of the player.



For example, not too many Brazilian footballers with almost fully European ancestry, like Kaka.



And,if you post footballers,bring the good ones, Sanmartean ,for instance,he made Brazil to play like in the Scottish League,on the retreat match of Ronaldo,too bad he was a very late bloomer,with lot of skill towards the end.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l8FqfB4uHlw

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Since these facts are very documented,see "Migration and Disease in the Black Sea region", by Andrew Robarts*,another out of Transylvania plan is speculated; 



however, even the plain region had always had lots of shepherds,while the mocani is surely an umbrella term,because,for example, the shepherds from Vrancea are traditional, locals,that's why they are recorded in Miorita separately from the Transylvanians and Moldavians.



The legend of the foundation of Bucharest by a shepherd called Bucur was contradicted by the historical data,it only proves the large use of shepherdry in the mid 18th c around the city.



*yes,it's Robarts,not Roberts

----------


## mihaitzateo

@Jajar - lol those people from Constanta, the Romanians, are looking quite Nordic, plenty of them.
One even looks Finnish - Alex Paul Pitu :) .

----------


## JajarBingan

> @Jajar - lol those people from Constanta, the Romanians, are looking quite Nordic, plenty of them.
> One even looks Finnish - Alex Paul Pitu :) .


But genetically they are also ones of the most Southern in Romania. Phenotypes are just a lottery really.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The geography and the natural resources of an area are very important for the historical distribution of the populations, even if the Iasi county is mainly made from high plains and low hills,it has very large and thick forests,I've seen in the villages people with at least the same Dinaric strain as in the Moldavian Carpathians.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In 1166 the Byzantines attacked Hungary with an army that had lots of Vlachs,the sources says,they went trough the Romanian(Danube) Plains.



Since that area has many salt deposits and one year earlier Andronikos I Komnenos was captured by the Romanians in the outer Carpathians, those "Vlachs" were actually locals.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=qGJ...0plain&f=false

----------


## JajarBingan

> The geography and the natural resources of an area are very important for the historical distribution of the populations, even if the Iasi county is mainly made from high plains and low hills,it has very large and thick forests,I've seen in the villages people with at least the same Dinaric strain as in the Moldavian Carpathians.


To be fair Romanians have huge intra-ethnic diversity in phenotypes. So, you'll find anything from Dinarids to Pontids and Baltids. There isn't a stereotypical Romanian face so to speak.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> To be fair Romanians have huge intra-ethnic diversity in phenotypes. So, you'll find anything from Dinarids to Pontids and Baltids. There isn't a stereotypical Romanian face so to speak.



I have been to Iasi,in the city,at a Bee Products market,the women were very good-looking,I kept my eyes on them,but didn't have spare time.


For sure,the Oltenian and Moldavian ones seem most attractive to me,both ambitious and still,domineering.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In my area ,it was complete wilderness until recently,no roads,no houses,nothing.


Only the shepherds came here,because,the land was very good for sheeps,they stayed in underground spaces,called bordei,after moving to other place,another one was built.



When a shepherd wanted to marry,he spoke to others or sent men to spread the rumour ,usually,they recommended a young woman that was not in that place.



He stayed for her,but if urgent things happened, he sent words to the surrounding shepherds that the woman should wait for him in this place,at least part of my ancestors have used this method.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Bordei is a Dacian word,related to Albanian borde,a hole


;after the shepherds have started to cultivate the land,they built houses,but bordei was still used because people slept in the field,during the agricultural works


.
I only stayed in the summer in bordei,much better than the house during the heat,the roof is made of straws,branches or wood,plus,you can better handle your harvest.

----------


## mihaitzateo

> I have been to Iasi,in the city,at a Bee Products market,the women were very good-looking,I kept my eyes on them,but didn't have spare time.
> 
> 
> For sure,the Oltenian and Moldavian ones seem most attractive to me,both ambitious and still,domineering.


I also held the opinion that Iasi county women are most beautiful Romanian women.
Muntenia women are very fine also and these Muntenia women are keeping the house extremely well and are very capable as leaders.
Viorica Dancila is not a good example and she is from Teleorman which is not typical for Muntenia.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Groapa is also inherited, I heard that the Thracians used the ritual pits .


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/groapă



http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2016/2016-12-23.html



https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=179428

----------


## Tutkun Arnaut

> I also held the opinion that Iasi county women are most beautiful Romanian women.
> Muntenia women are very fine also and these Muntenia women are keeping the house extremely well and are very capable as leaders.
> Viorica Dancila is not a good example and she is from Teleorman which is not typical for Muntenia.


post a pic of iasi

----------


## JajarBingan

> Bordei is a Dacian word,related to Albanian borde,a hole
> 
> 
> ;after the shepherds have started to cultivate the land,they built houses,but bordei was still used because people slept in the field,during the agricultural works
> 
> 
> .
> I only stayed in the summer in bordei,much better than the house during the heat,the roof is made of straws,branches or wood,plus,you can better handle your harvest.


In my area bordei mainly means a whorehouse

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> In my area bordei mainly means a whorehouse


You have 5 minutes to delete the post,this is not true.

If it iches,I can scratch you,easily...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I also held the opinion that Iasi county women are most beautiful Romanian women.




Why,because they are Jassy-Yazyg or Hungarian Sarmatians,just like Jarjar's conclusion, with the R1a Z93 Thracians ?



I think the Hungarians from all over the places have used the jars for pickles much more than us.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto...urope_1572.png

----------


## mihaitzateo

Iasi women, Hungarian?
Lol!
They do not like Slavic, they do not look Hungarian either, those women from Iasi.
These women from Iasi are looking quite unique in Romania.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The bordei is definitely inherited,it widely appears in the 13th-14th c. Proto-Romanian sites from the area of the Severin Fortress.



It is not a coincidence, that the most advanced and diverse ones,have always been found in Oltenia,many of them made entirely from wood and,sometimes, much more expensive than a typical house.


They were used by the Iron Age populations(approx 600 BC,the Basarabi culture),the Getic-Thracians and the Dacians from SW Romania,even appeared on the Trajan's Column.



https://www1.agerpres.ro/sci-tech/20...obeta-12-03-19



http://alexisphoenix.org/bordeiproject.php

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Ignac Raichevich,1788,about the villages from the Wallachian plains:


"The houses, that can be called more properly burrows,are builded underground and named bordeie.


From far,only the smoke can be sometimes seen,while from close,barely the roof,who is just little above the ground and grass grows upon.


These people run away from the main roads and search for the building of the settlements a valley or narrow place,to not be seen by the travellers and keeping away from the predators and injustice."

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I have an obsession with collecting swords. Combative and decorative. Including a re-curve hunting bow. I was born in the wrong age lol.



Just a technical and historical observation here,until you can pull the cutting weapons,a fist can do wonders,especially if calibrated,by the more experienced users,such as the shepherds...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> There are records from the Moldavian and Wallachian voivods,that killings because of fighting were very severely punished and the use of metal blades forbidden.



I have checked on the internet this is not 100% true,the local rulers did actually the opposite,punished the peasants that were not able to provide, maintaining their weapons and equipment,used for training and war,it was the Greeks who forbid the use,because there were many rebellions,from that period we have a very nice saying,"Capul plecat,sabia nu taie"(The bending head is not cut by the sword").

----------


## Nik

I know a girl from Iasi but I don't see anything strange or non-local about her looks. Mostly Mediterranean with some very very small asian influence in her eyes. 

How do they look in general?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I know a girl from Iasi but I don't see anything strange or non-local about her looks. Mostly Mediterranean with some very very small asian influence in her eyes. 
> How do they look in general?



Nick,you have to get used to it,in the Moldavian plains,Iasi,Vaslui,Galati,just like Oltenia,Western Wallachia, it's the upside down ,actually,the mostly blondes don't look too nice.


Because the Moldavian state had the center in Bukovina, many new things didn't reach to the lowlanders.

----------


## JajarBingan

> You have 5 minutes to delete the post,this is not true.
> 
> If it iches,I can scratch you,easily...


Wait, it's actually bordel for whorehouse in the dictionary, whereas bordei is what you wrote. However, some people pronounce bordel as bordei, including me.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

With this post,we will close the subject,the word is not borrowed from the Hungarian bordely or from Latin bordellum simply because the original sense must be pit,underground space,exactly what borde means in Albanian, it's a Paleo-Balkanic term, closer to the initial meaning of the IE root,*bher,to carve,cut,split.



Even if in Hungarian bordely is pronounced bordei,bordeii,with the accent on the last i,it has nothing to do with the Romanian word,the same form,but two totally different terms,a coincidence;that's why,in Wiktionary for the same group of letters,there is etymology 1,2,3,etc,these are not alike.


This type of living space,similar to grubenhouse,pithouse was used since ancient times by many peoples, that's why the word has to be inherited.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bordello#Italian

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Your friend, Lenin,near a some sort of bordei-like hut,still it looks very different and not underground.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.marxists.org/romana/leni...stratii/24.htm

----------


## Sile

> With this post,we will close the subject,the word is not borrowed from the Hungarian bordely or from Latin bordellum simply because the original sense must be pit,underground space,exactly what borde means in Albanian, it's a Paleo-Balkanic term, closer to the initial meaning of the IE root,*bher,to carve,cut,split.
> Even if in Hungarian bordely is pronounced bordei,bordeii,with the accent on the last i,it has nothing to do with the Romanian word,the same form,but two totally different terms,a coincidence;that's why,in Wiktionary for the same group of letters,there is etymology 1,2,3,etc,these are not alike.
> This type of living space,similar to grubenhouse,pithouse was used since ancient times by many peoples, that's why the word has to be inherited.
> https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bordello#Italian


Italian regional languages are older than Italian and so some words have different meanings...like Bordello
.
*caxin 
translation and definition "caxin", Venetian-English Dictionary online
add translation 
caxin
Gender: masculine; Type: noun; brothel { noun }
.
bordelo, bordeo
confusion, disorder*
.
Caxin in venetian, apart from a place for courtesans was a gambling place .............hence the English took the word Caxin ( as x has a s sound ) and made it casino

----------


## Dreptul Valah

If Marco Polo was a "Croatian" by region, then his ancestry and ethnicity was Romanian-Vlach.



The Croatians claim that he was from Korcula,near Dubrovnik, Neretva,in this places there were lots of Romanian traders in contact with the Venetians.

Vlachs,Morlachs from Dalmatia, Venice,were the most related to the Daco-Romanians, that's what linguistics says,see the generalized n-r rhotacism, lacking in Aromanian.
.
http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...ial-Times.html


And,the Romanian word for cheese,branza,brandza,in Slavic ,bryndza ,is firstly recorded in Dubrovnik,the shepherds,brought sheep products,wax(we have a very good tradition in bee growing,with lots of words from Latin,albina,stup,ceara,etc) to the city and left with the Dalmatian salt from the Adriatic coast.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryndza



https://adriaticpantry.com/products/...lmatian-spices



http://researchomnia.blogspot.com/20...matia.html?m=1


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...ory_of_Croatia

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Some of these Vlachs,like Marco Polo's ancestors became extremely rich, they lived in the Bosnian state and raised stone tombs like stecci,steccak,mentioned in the Venetian records from Dubrovnik, "Vlachi et Bosgnani".



" In the 1376 and 1454 documents by the Dubrovnik Republic about trade with the Bosnian lands are distinguished, Vlachi et Bosgnani."


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...ory_of_Croatia

----------


## Sile

> If Marco Polo was a "Croatian" by region, then his ancestry and ethnicity was Romanian-Vlach.
> The Croatians claim that he was from Korcula,near Dubrovnik, Neretva,in this places there were lots of Romanian traders in contact with the Venetians.
> Vlachs,Morlachs from Dalmatia, Venice,were the most related to the Daco-Romanians, that's what linguistics says,see the generalized n-r rhotacism, lacking in Aromanian.
> .
> http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...ial-Times.html
> And,the Romanian word for cheese,branza,brandza,in Slavic ,bryndza ,is firstly recorded in Dubrovnik,the shepherds,brought sheep products,wax(we have a very good tradition in bee growing,with lots of words from Latin,albina,stup,ceara,etc) to the city and left with the Dalmatian salt from the Adriatic coast.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryndza
> https://adriaticpantry.com/products/...lmatian-spices
> http://researchomnia.blogspot.com/20...matia.html?m=1
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...ory_of_Croatia


Marco Polo real surname is in dispute , some say his surname was Milione, and he used Polo because he lived in the venetian district of San Polo ( saint Paul ).
.
In English his name would be....Mark Paul

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Polo family comes from Sibenik,this is one of the cores from Morlacchia,many Vlachs were recorded here.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=TiT...201254&f=false



https://www.researchgate.net/figure/..._271824701/amp

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://books.google.ro/books?id=wEF...ibenik&f=false



https://books.google.ro/books?id=4NY...ibenik&f=false




https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvV...20knin&f=false

----------


## Wonomyro

> If Marco Polo was a "Croatian" by region, then his ancestry and ethnicity was Romanian-Vlach.
> The Croatians claim that he was from Korcula,near Dubrovnik, Neretva,in this places there were lots of Romanian traders in contact with the Venetians.
> Vlachs,Morlachs from Dalmatia, Venice,were the most related to the Daco-Romanians, that's what linguistics says,see the generalized n-r rhotacism, lacking in Aromanian.
> .
> http://www.croatia.org/crown/article...ial-Times.html
> And,the Romanian word for cheese,branza,brandza,in Slavic ,bryndza ,is firstly recorded in Dubrovnik,the shepherds,brought sheep products,wax(we have a very good tradition in bee growing,with lots of words from Latin,albina,stup,ceara,etc) to the city and left with the Dalmatian salt from the Adriatic coast.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryndza
> https://adriaticpantry.com/products/...lmatian-spices
> http://researchomnia.blogspot.com/20...matia.html?m=1
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...ory_of_Croatia



If any person from the Dalmatian coast has read what you stated about Marco Polo’s origin, he is probably already dead of laughter. 

In the local culture the word Vlach (or locally: "Vlay") means: a man from the hinterland, more correctly a mountain shepherd. 

You see, wherever Marco Polo came from, that place must be near the sea. Korčula is the island of sailors, captains, fishermen and agriculturists. It is believed that Marco Polo family originated there before they moved to Venice. However, nobody can say that for sure.

"Morlacks" was the Venetian catch-all term for people who lived in the Dalmatian hinterland regardless of their ethnic origin and language. People who lived along the coast were called Boduls. These two groups never lived in "harmony".

Both Vlachs and Boduls were speaking Croatian since the medieval times. However, in some coastal enclaves Dalmatian Romance was preserved until 19th century. Dalmatian Romance has nothing to do with Daco-Romanian. It is a separate branch. There is only one small bilingual enclave in Istria mountains (Ćići) who partly speak the Romance language that can be related to Vlachs. 

Genetics studies on Croats don't show any significant genetic footprint of indigenous Vlachs in present day Croatian genetics. It is more likely that only some of Croatian “Vlachs” were of “real” Vlach origin. Others were just Slavs who accepted Vlach lifestyle and therefore started to carry Vlach label ever since. Almost no people today call themselves Vlachs nor Morlacks. 

The "stećci" tombstones you mentioned have inscriptions (epitaphs). The language of the texts is Slavic. The people who were buried under the stones had Slavic names. It is just a speculation that these people were Vlachs.

Btw, do you know what Vlays use to say about maritime cuisine? “If fish was any good, wolf would be a diver”.  :Laughing:

----------


## Sile

> Polo family comes from Sibenik,this is one of the cores from Morlacchia,many Vlachs were recorded here.
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=TiT...201254&f=false
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/..._271824701/amp


i will revist my book...Venice and the slavs ...and let you know.
.
in regards to Marco Polo ...........his grandfather was Andrea Polo born in Venice in 1185
his father was Niccolo born in Venice in 1220
Korcula was under Venice from the 10th to the 14th century, just because Marco was born there of Venetian parents does not make him a Croat.
Marco married Donata Badoer ( a venetian noble family )
.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12682113000140
above might be of interest to you

----------


## Dreptul Valah

@ Wonomyro


That's a good one,I guess that every people has some very wit and bold jokes,didn't hear these kind for sometime,in my village they were more like a quiz,the elders,grandparents used to ask us.


After that,they calmly smiled and with sort of hidden complicity and confidence,as if they were scholars who knew important things that we didn't.

----------


## LABERIA

> If any person from the Dalmatian coast has read what you stated about Marco Polo’s origin, he is probably already dead of laughter. 
> 
> In the local culture the word Vlach (or locally: "Vlay") means: a man from the hinterland, more correctly a mountain shepherd. 
> 
> You see, wherever Marco Polo came from, that place must be near the sea. Korčula is the island of sailors, captains, fishermen and agriculturists. It is believed that Marco Polo family originated there before they moved to Venice. However, nobody can say that for sure.
> 
> "Morlacks" was the Venetian catch-all term for people who lived in the Dalmatian hinterland regardless of their ethnic origin and language. People who lived along the coast were called Boduls. These two groups never lived in "harmony".
> 
> Both Vlachs and Boduls were speaking Croatian since the medieval times. However, in some coastal enclaves Dalmatian Romance was preserved until 19th century. Dalmatian Romance has nothing to do with Daco-Romanian. It is a separate branch. There is only one small bilingual enclave in Istria mountains (Ćići) who partly speak the Romance language that can be related to Vlachs. 
> ...


I always invite people who are interested in learning history to read this text:
*1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage*People mentioned as Latins in this text are not Vlachs.

----------


## Wonomyro

> i will revist my book...Venice and the slavs ...and let you know.
> .
> in regards to Marco Polo ...........his grandfather was Andrea Polo born in Venice in 1185
> his father was Niccolo born in Venice in 1220
> Korcula was under Venice from the 10th to the 14th century, just because Marco was born there of Venetian parents does not make him a Croat.
> Marco married Donata Badoer ( a venetian noble family )
> .
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12682113000140
> above might be of interest to you


There is no doubt that Marco Polo was Venetian. However, there are some indices that he was a son of Dalmatian imigrants. There are also indices that the family Polo origin was in the town (and island) of Korčula.

This is what I found after a quick search. There are some arguments in this text that support "Korčula" theory. There was a family called Polo in Korčula.

_The island’s leading authority on Marco Polo is Dr Zivan Filippi. I meet him in the old town, outside the cathedral of Sveti Marko [Saint Marco]. He is in his sixties, and he speaks with old-world charm and an easily-shared enthusiasm for his town. Korčula’s claim, he explains, rests mainly on the long-term presence of the Depolo/Polo family. ‘Between the 16th and 20th centuries, records show that there were 712 people named either Depolo or Polo born here.’

Earlier papers, he continues, connect the family – at the time of Marco – with the town’s principal occupation of ship-building. As we walk through the shadowy warren of foot-polished alleys, high-sided and narrow, Zivan ignores the town’s trumpeting of its famous son, all the Marco Polo shops and knick-knacks. He speaks of documents and evidence. He points out the Polo family crest carved into a wall. Even in the Marco Polo tower, a belvedere with spectacular views of the sail-spotted channel below, he is more concerned with a few stones in a yard beside it. ‘The tower is many years later than Marco Polo – but here we have discovered the base of a house from his time. It belonged to the Polo family.’_ 

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/2011...ing-in-croatia

----------


## Wonomyro

> I always invite people who are interested in learning history to read this text:
> *1332
> Anonymous:
> Initiative for Making the Passage*
> 
> People mentioned as Latins in this text are not Vlachs.


Under the the term "Latins" there were two ethnic groups - Dalmatians and Catholic Slavs (Croats). 

Under the term "evil Slavs" the author mean East Orthodox Slavs who were sometimes hostile towards the local Catholic population.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Googled for the Dalmatian shepherds and reached to this picture,it's from sibenik,


https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-sh...t-7557641.html


these are sheeps from the same main race like the traditional Romanian turcana(tzurcana,tsurcana ,not related to Turkey),with curly, long and thick wool.


Turcan,turcana has no etymology, but it is surely an inherited word,because it sounds very similar to tarc(tzarc,tsarc,sheep enclosure).



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/țarc



https://ro.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/țurcan

----------


## Wonomyro

> Under the the term "Latins" there were two ethnic groups - Dalmatians (Romans) and Catholic Slavs (Croats). 
> 
> Under the term "evil Slavs" the author mean East Orthodox Slavs who were sometimes hostile towards the local Catholic population.


I called Dalmatians those who spoke a dialect of Dalmatian Romance. They lived in the coastal cities. Later they were assimilated by Catholic Slavs (Croats) and started to speak Croatian.

----------


## Wonomyro

> i will revist my book...Venice and the slavs ...and let you know.
> .
> in regards to Marco Polo ...........his grandfather was Andrea Polo born in Venice in 1185
> his father was Niccolo born in Venice in 1220
> Korcula was under Venice from the 10th to the 14th century, just because Marco was born there of Venetian parents does not make him a Croat.
> Marco married Donata Badoer ( a venetian noble family )
> .
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12682113000140
> above might be of interest to you


Some useful links:

The document which indicates the Dalmatian origin: http://www.korcula.net/mpolo/mpolobrit.htm

An article by dr. Zivan Filippi on Polo/De Polo family in Korcula: http://www.korcula.net/mpolo/mpolo2.htm

----------


## Sile

> Some useful links:
> 
> The document which indicates the Dalmatian origin: http://www.korcula.net/mpolo/mpolobrit.htm
> 
> An article by dr. Zivan Filippi on Polo/De Polo family in Korcula: http://www.korcula.net/mpolo/mpolo2.htm


This says born in Venice and has his mother name

https://www.thefamouspeople.com/prof...-polo-2234.php

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Winds used for guidance, from my area:


austru,west


Baltaretu,The One from the Balta,Danube,south


Cornu Caprii,Goat's Horn,east


Traista Goala,Empty Bag,north

Cainar,Dog Keeper,south

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Traista is related to Calabrian trastina,shepherd's bag.


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ITA2810/_PI.HTM


http://www.zoomsud.it/index.php/cult...pi-cani-e-lupi


Romanian versions:


https://www.carnaval24.ro/images/pro.../CTR104859.jpg



http://www.costumepopulare.ro/wgc_me...s/traista5.JPG


http://zarpa.ro/image/cache/catalog/...-1000x1000.jpg



The word also appears in expressions like "traista kind", for "uncivilized, raw,country, persons",bumpkin.

----------


## LABERIA

Trastë/a in Albanian means bag. Meanwhile balta means mud.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I have seen the whole World generalizes the "stupidity" of the countrymen, this is a false concept,in fact the people from the towns are afraid because the "peasants" have more vigour, do things in their own way,make little compromises and they could seize "the power" much more easily.


The intelligence and creativity are much more concentrated to the countryside,because you have to manage with lots of different,important,situations,while the townsmen are simple flocks led by the local fashion.


Another difference here,genuine men come from the countryside, while in the cities ,you can find a lot of false ones,easy to understand.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Traista is related to Calabrian trastina,shepherd's bag
> The word also appears in expressions like "traista kind", for "uncivilized, raw,country, persons",bumpkin.



These kinds of expressions are in reality cheap stereotypes about the shepherds, seen by the " normal" people as "outsiders ",men with dubious look and intentions,that have weird ways of entertainment, etc.



To the contrary,shepherdry was in fact an elite " institution " in the past,where only men with certain skills had the chance to practice.


https://www.italyheritage.com/italia...u-pecuraru.htm



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6o8Ekem9s

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Shepherdry is pure,extreme,virtue,that's why Romulus and Remus were raised as shepherds and the ancient Greeks remembered when they were really heroes,see Jason and The Golden Fleece.

It was the "institution" hit here,not the shepherds:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qvm_IzzKQQs

----------


## gidai

In the absence of archaeological evidence, I believe that with 2000-3000 years ago on the territory of Dacians, it would not be impossible that it was at great proportions as at present, of Y haplogroups like G2a (discovered recently in the Cucuteni culture), E, T, maybe even some old C and H2, alongside with I2, and newer ocured R1b and some j2.

----------


## JajarBingan

> I have seen the whole World generalizes the "stupidity" of the countrymen, this is a false concept,in fact the people from the towns are afraid because the "peasants" have more vigour, do things in their own way,make little compromises and they could seize "the power" much more easily.
> 
> 
> The intelligence and creativity are much more concentrated to the countryside,because you have to manage with lots of different,important,situations,while the townsmen are simple flocks led by the local fashion.
> 
> 
> Another difference here,genuine men come from the countryside, while in the cities ,you can find a lot of false ones,easy to understand.


It takes a lot of intelligence and creativity to shit in a hole dug in the ground.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> These kinds of expressions are in reality cheap stereotypes about the shepherds, seen by the " normal" people as "outsiders ",men with dubious look and intentions,that have weird ways of entertainment, etc.
> To the contrary,shepherdry was in fact an elite " institution " in the past,where only men with certain skills had the chance to practice.
> https://www.italyheritage.com/italia...u-pecuraru.htm
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6o8Ekem9s




As the pictures from the clip seem to suggest,the shepherds have "a strange look", with " hidden ideas",that "might put us in great danger",in reality, these are extremely simplistic explanations of the " traditional ",over static ,societies, that have constantly tried to...spice it up their imagination, see the case of the Salem witches.



Actually, the shepherd doesn't do that look without good reasons,he has to be investigative and surveying, because his crew,flock, are constantly exposed to great risks,dangers,it's much more than a simple defense mechanism, I'm talking here about survival.



Besides, Kekaumenos really exaggerates,he becomes hysterical, using " and" for too many times ,in a sentence(see pgs. 210,211).




https://books.google.ro/books?id=iBO...vlachs&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> The Greeks who were against the Aromanians were more linguistic greeks than genetic. Genetically, the origins of these Greeks were either in West Asia or in the Hellenized Aromanians. I also do not deny that Albania has recently given Vlachs rights, congratulations on this! I would like to make a point, that there is a difference between the Romanians and the Aromanians as well as the craftsmen. The Aromanians were indeed known as shepherds and big sheep owners as well as caravan merchants, merchants who were renowned for their ability to do business, while the Romanians were predominantly farmers, raising sheep and other animals, especially pigs , the latter being not raised by Balkan Aromanians.




Pig raising was a very important occupation of the Balkans/Danube area in the Roman period,especially during the 6th.c AD,some studies comfirm;since the populations from the Balkans and Danube were constantly invaded by the barbarians from the north,the typical use of open spaces,pastures,was replaced with the indoor pig raising,because ,unlike cows,for example, these animals could be grown inside the fortified cities,settlements,and fed with the cereal supplies.



Justinian's father,Justin,was the son of a pig breeder from Dardania.



In Romanian, there are a lot of words preserved about the pig raising,interestingly, unlike the sheep vocabulary, there is no Dacian word kept, all of them come from Latin,some,with specific shift,Latin masculus,Romanian mascur (a male pig),other words,vier(uncastrated male pig),rama(to rout),porc,purcea,purcel,scroafa,purcareata(Latin porcaricia,hogsty),porcina(pig meat)"De-a poarca"(Piggish, Of Pigs,kids game),Grigore Brancusi.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/râma#Romanian

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I add here the word for sausage,carnat,because in Romania is made from pig meat and lard,this implies that South Italian "Rito di maiale" is the same with Romanian Ignat.



Also osanza,pork lard,from a Latin root axungia,see the figurative sense too.




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/osânză



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cârnat



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Aps0D_j6j14

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In reality , the Romanian Christmas Celebration has also a pagan significance, because it originates from the Paleo-Balkanic cults,see the paintings with Thracian horsemen chasing boars.



http://www.blog2fete.com/natale-roma...maiale-divino/



https://image.isu.pub/120217075804-7...humb_large.jpg



Dacian-Tracian god Zamolxis,hunting a boar.



https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...an-tomb-in.jpg



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...century-BC.jpg



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_horseman.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

A part of the South Slavs from the Serbian-Bulgarian border area had fled to the mountains in the period of the Ottoman occupation,the so-called Torlaks and Shopi,where they had started to practice shepherdry,locally inherited from the Romanian-Vlach times.



Safarik observed some Romanian names from the old documents in the Struma and Iskar areas,however these Vlachs were quickly Bulgarianized ,the same happened with the Asens.



The charter of the Zica monastery is a totally different situation, because lot of Romanian-Vlach names from the whole Serbian kingdom were preserved, and these are overwhelmingly ancient and Daco-Romanian,the very most still in use.



Yet,those Romanians also had Serbian names that we didn't kept,they were under the Slavization.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

To clarify these,before somebody starts making interesting ideas,Kekaumenos made the Vlachs "cowards" because they were practicing all kinds of guerrilla tactics,proved by his own text and Nichetas Choniates,who writes,for example that the "Vlachs used to withdraw into the mountains and ambush the Byzantine army

----------


## Lenab

> To clarify these,before somebody starts making interesting ideas,Kekaumenos made the Vlachs "cowards" because they were practicing all kinds of guerrilla tactics


What's a main ''Vlach'' haplogroup?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> What's a main ''Vlach'' haplogroup?




1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,probably J2b2-L...

2)acquired :R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman


Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna,still,easily forgetting the autosomal discussion?

----------


## Lenab

> 1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,possibly J2b2-L...
> 
> 
> 2)acquired ,R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman
> 
> 
> Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna


I was thinking the old E3b would come up but I don't think they are related to Cumans? Never heard of that can you elaborate?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I was thinking the old E3b would come up but I don't think they are related to Cumans? Never heard of that can you elaborate?




The Cumans didn't passed to the Romanians autosomes,that's for sure,the anthropologic analysis is clear,no significant admixture took place;however, it is possible that some of the lords with this kind of ancestry passed the Y-DNA to some of their servants.



The Papal documents already spoke before the disaster from Kalka,that in the core of the Black Cumania(parts of the Moldavian and Eastern Wallachian plains),the Catholic Diocese with the seat in Milcov,the great majority are called Walati(Vlachs) of Greek rite,who had relentlessly opposed to conversion.



Most likely the Romanians and Cumans had very short-lived contacts(common military interest) and were very separated by the geography, the mountains vs. the plains,otherwise we would have seen a single, mixt,uniform, culture; in reality, the Cumans searched for the Bulgarian and Byzantine territories, after they were destroyed by the Mongols only few chieftains have remained to integrate into the Romanian society, many others have left ,also to Hungary.




The Romanians instead,although the Persian chronicle says that they were defeated too by the Mongols,still, by withdrawing into the mountains, they managed to survive,also as structures.



That's why the remaining Cuman leaders had no other option, but to embrace the Romanian identity, especially that they were probably used by the majority to make good treaties,including alliances, with the Mongols,since a lot of these have remained under the Hord authority, north of the Black Sea.



It would explain how Wallachia took a land from the Mongol suzerainty, the original land of Basarabia,if I recall the Horde had also sent some troops in support for Wallachia in the early 14th c.

----------


## Lenab

> The Cumans didn't passed to the Romanians autosomes,that's for sure


Right, well everyone in Europe is related if you want to go that far back.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> 1) inherited: E-V 13 and I2a,probably J2b2-L...
> 2)acquired :R1a,Bulgarian,possibly even Cuman
> Why do you South Slavs keep asking only about the Y dna,still,easily forgetting the autosomal discussion?




I have said it,because in the South Slavic territory I2a was much more common than R1a,the same clear difference exists in the terms ,the Romanian cneaz,although borrowed from Slavic,it is ultimately "inherited",because it was used in all the Balkans,especially in the more conservative Vlach shepherds societies from especially Serbia,Montenegro, Bosnia and H,Croatia;still,the function is simply a translation to communicate with the Slavs,the original word is Jude,Latin,see also Judet,similar to Sardinian Giudicati,Judike.



The Jude,cneaz,was involved one way or another in carrying the I2a to the rest of the population.



A very different Slavic word is boyar,borrowed from Bulgarian; we do know that these Bulgarians simply didn't want to share the power with others, but after Samuil's defeat and unsuccessful rebellions,it was the Romanians who saved them from Byzantinization.



The Bulgarian influence, was received through Asens,although many Romanians -Vlachs didn't agree with their Bulgarization,when they had no other solution,the relations with the Bulgaro-Vlachs were restored,at least,to some extent,for example,Ivanko,who, after kills Asen and barely escapes, had traded with his younger brother Kaloyan,against the Byzantines.




https://books.google.ro/books?id=nYb...aloyan&f=false
.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Since the relations with the South Slav and Byzantine nobility and royalty have created opportunities, but from their point of view ,also too many obligations,the Romanians-Vlachs constantly searching for autonomy,they switched from one side to another, not receiving what it has been asked for,they have created what will become Wallachia, in the 14th c.



And ,this search for independence is very well expressed ,for example, by Dobromir Chryssos


.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=3480

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another thing here,very clear,the earliest Wallachian rulers (13th c.)were ALL of 100% Romanian-Vlach origin.



Litovoi, although Slavic,also appears common ,very early in the Aromanian area,as a leader name.



Barbat,his brother,typical Romanian ,Latin name.



Seneslau,Hungarian corruption from Stanislau,see one of the earliest Romanian leader from Transylvania, Stanislau Barsan of Sarasau.



These Slavic names simply imply prestige, fashion,Ochrid,the earliest Aromanian chiefs only had this kind,1070's Vlach rebellion,Vervoi(Berivoi) The Vlach,Slavota,etc.



EDIT



This is in strong contrast with the list of Vlach knezes, from the Zica charter, 1220,were many typical Vlach,mostly Daco-Romanian ,names,lots of them with Dacian or Latin origin, are recorded;still in use today.

----------


## Lenab

> Another thing here,very clear,the earlest Wallachian rulers (13th c.)were ALL of 100% Romanian-Vlach origin.
> Litovoi, although Slavic,also appears common ,very early in the Aromanian area,as a leader name.
> Barbat,his brother,typical Romanian ,Latin name.
> Seneslau,Hungarian corruption from Stanislaus,see one of the earliest Romanian leader from Transylvania, Stanislau Barsan of Sarasau.
> The Slavic name simply implies prestige, fashion,Ochrid,the earliest Aromanian leaders only had Slavic names,1070's Vlach rebellion,Vervoi(Berivoi) The Vlach,Slavota,etc.


That's interesting but Romanians have always had common similarities with the Vlach

----------


## gidai

*Dreptul Valah,* 
Kaloyan
Interesting Kaloyan remember us Caloianul, witch is a popular practice in Romania to bring rain. Caloianul was the soil sent by men to the god of the rain, to persuade him to unravel the rains. Thus, during the drought, the girls and women in the country made a small yellow clay (called "Caloian") that they put in a coffin and which they thought of as a dead man, imitating the funeral ritual. The women were singing a specific poem, then buried the man in the clay near a well. Three days later they dug it up and threw it on the water to disturb the waters and clouds, as it does before it rains. On Caloian's day, the men were only pending until noon, and the rest of the day they were spending.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another Vlach haplogroup,R1b-L23, usual IE marker.

----------


## gidai

> Another Vlach haplogroup,R1b-L23, usual IE marker.


I think, Y haplogroups represent just as much as it is from the genetic code. Very little. Less than 2%.

----------


## Lenab

> I think, Y haplogroups represent just as much as it is from the genetic code. Very little. Less than 2%.


Well that's why people have more than one haplogroup.

----------


## gidai

> Well that's why people have more than one haplogroup.


lool...  :Confused:  You know someone with more Y-haplogroups !?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> That's interesting but Romanians have always had common similarities with the Vlach



Don't have to worry about them,they are very few in numbers,proportion, even in Dobrogea.



Most of the Aromanians are good,ambitious hardworking people, in the towns (like Constanta),they may have mixed more or less with the Greeks(also,mostly not bad people).

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Well that's why people have more than one haplogroup.




The woman has to be fully equipped too,also with some of the male hormone, testosterone,still not at the Norwegian-American,bodybuilder,levels or the former Communist over-stillness,that's the whole point in being with them,you have to sense some differences.



Ladies with the extreme lack of testosterone tend to be quite impersonal in their interactions,communication, seeing only the mild ,happy, part of life,in "relationships", they are much more abstract and non-competitive,even with Victorian or French-Russian-Slavic Romanticism,over lyrical...



In Wallachia, Moldavia and the Balkans,I do have the feeling that we appreciate their,awareness, reactions,vitality,among the most, vigour,tenacity and even more.



For example, another type of Italian woman,probably from the South,that you don't meet so often on the forums:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LqNgE9GgrX8

----------


## Dreptul Valah

As for the males, by acting as the Terminator ,Vin Diesel,"This is Sparta!!!",etc.,I call them "stupid,bad,people", a typical Romanian expression, for the "honest",over sincere,very big men,but only with some, not too complicated, initiatives,based on size.



The reactivated Neanderthality in the 21th c urban centers doesn't resemble the Thracians, Dacians or generally the modern humans,because those people,despite the force,they were much more complicated,for example,also enjoyed a good level of entertainment, jokes,dancing,surprises,singing,a lot.


That's why,even the Vikings will always be much more popular, than those abstract movie characters.

----------


## Lenab

> lool...  You know someone with more Y-haplogroups !?


What are you talking about clearly you have never got a full haplogroup test people have a multitude of haplogroups you have one main one, that's it.

----------


## Lenab

> The woman has to be fully equipped too,also with some of the male hormone, testosterone,still not at the Norwegian-American,bodybuilder,levels or the former Communist over-stillness,that's the whole point in being with them,you have to sense some differences.
> 
> 
> 
> Ladies with the extreme lack of testosterone tend to be quite impersonal in their interactions,communication, seeing only the mild ,happy, part of life,in "relationships", they are much more abstract and non-competitive,even with Victorian or French-Russian-Slavic Romanticism,over lyrical...
> 
> 
> 
> In Wallachia, Moldavia and the Balkans,I do have the feeling that we appreciate their,awareness, reactions,vitality,among the most, vigour,tenacity and even more.
> ...


I don't know about things like that only in Wallachia they have awesome castles

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> I don't know about things like that only in Wallachia they have awesome castles




In my area ,we only had sheepfolds,hundreds,a thousand, even thousands, on 100 hectares, researchers says.



Yet,people were very endeavouring here too,when it came to girls and usually good-mannered,took their time,they knew how to talk with them ,definitely not over blunt,still,things were more energetic, vigorous, than in other places.



Because of the shepherd background, men still used to date with girls 8-10 years younger.



There wasn't a caste of manliness here, that's for sure,the young man was over protective and in charge of the situation ,naturally,from his own initiative,instincts,and he did so very skillfully, with mature keenness,still,no matter the surprises that had to offer,the girl must have been somehow connected in feelings.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Stone crosses from the "Road of the Shepherds",only when people reached them,they knew that this is the right track.



https://adriancostea09.files.wordpre...&crop=1&zoom=2


https://adriancostea09.files.wordpre...&crop=1&zoom=2

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Interesting similarity between the Etruscan (Negau type)and Getae -Dacian helmets,both having the protective eyes above:



ETR



https://i.pinimg.com/236x/50/78/8d/5...mo-helmets.jpg




DAC


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/b9...3dcb9a6f02.jpg



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/65/7a...0091767116.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Capcaun is a Romanian mythological creature,with a lot of physical strength and aggression,that can create unrest in a certain land.



As a human flesh eater,it is one of the most hunted monsters,yet many heroes sent against him clearly fail,only to be killed by the most important ones,like Fat-Frumos.




It is extremely likely that the Capacaun is related to the Turko-Mongol title for military leader,for example, the Avar kapkhan or Bulgar kavkan(red kaphan).



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kavhan




Since the Bulgars have lived only along the eastern end of the Lower Danube,before the conversion to Christianity and Slavization while the Avars had a clear localization,it is safe to establish the Proto-Romanian homeland on the actual territory, mainly into the Carpathians.




Further evidence,seems that, it was the smaller group of Bulgars who wasn't able to push further southwards,into the Byzantine E. until the 9th.,because they have started to lose the identity ,by having internal factions in conflict, more or less sustained by the Slavic majority.




https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...80-_803%29.png

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Căpcăun


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly

----------


## Dreptul Valah

These Vlaji,Croatian Vlachs, seem like a very nice and clever people:


https://sh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaji

https://books.google.ro/books?id=UxS...=vlaji&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

deleted del

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Sorry! I admit I missed from the history classes or ... I had totally forgotten.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
> It seems that we all knew we were living in Romania here in Balkans and we were Romans (Romani-Rumâni-romaioi...), for almost a thousand years...__ That was until about 550 years ago? But some of them still remember until today.



In reality,the Greeks used to treat people very different than the Romans,they didn't care too much about the foreign tribes,surely interacted with them more loose,this is where the barbaroi,barbarians,came from.



The Romans instead were more into extremely strict exploitation or ,eventually,genocide,the foreigners were clearly much more controlled, subjected, that's why there were a lot of Dacian,Thracian and Illyrian revolts in the early centuries AD,especially that these were remote,border people.



This Greek mentality has survived until recently, in the Ottoman times,when they were better in charge of the Balkanic Orthodox peoples, they could have easily Hellenized them,yet no such thing happened, but a more economic oriented perspective.



Same thing happened in the Byzantine Empire,where both the Albanians and Romanians-Vlachs ,like other nations in Anatolia or even in Sardinia(see the giudicati),have preserved their autonomies.



Another clue is this ambiguous term,hoditai,that was used for the first Vlach record,in 976,even centuries later the groups from Greece were extremely brief described, usually,without too much interest.


That's why,it is not a surprise that the Aromanian traditions and language have survived more than a thousand years,inside Greece.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yTIRu2pcaTo

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Ciufu,A Lu Ciufiu, is very common name or nick from my part of the village,this is the Romanian word for tuft.


Ciufu also represents a dance from Buzau and Vrancea,that's were we come from the mountain side,the region had a lot of local shepherds from the old times.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colți



Colti is the word for fangs,this is our area,near Pataralagele.


The villages from Colti seem to have Proto-Romanian names Muscel,Alunis,the last exists in SE Serbia,for centuries,the linguists say.



http://dais.sanu.ac.rs/handle/123456789/2191


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1547112846932

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The region around Colti is called Tara Luanei(Land of Luana) and has two legends;



although having a girl's name Luana was a wise king and wizard that,when his soldiers died in battle, he splashed them with apa vie(living water),taken from Valea Izvoarelor(Spring's Valley),in the second,it's about a beautiful girl that comes from chariot of fire and loves a mortal.



Another legend says that the land was attacked by men coming in chariots of fire and the Luana people took refuge into their fortresses with high walls;the whole place belonged to an "advanced" civilization of just and brave men.



APA vie-energy drink for the heroes
APA chiara/ chioara,also inherited from Latin(cl>ch) ,aqua clara-clear water,"just" water.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Both the name of the county and the river come from the mountain side,because buza is also the word for peak, see Buza Muntelui from Muntii Rodnei,this is Thracian(attested in Buzes,Bouzes).


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/buză#Romanian


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalian_(general)

----------


## JajarBingan

> *Dreptul Valah,* 
> Kaloyan
> Interesting Kaloyan remember us Caloianul, witch is a popular practice in Romania to bring rain. Caloianul was the soil sent by men to the god of the rain, to persuade him to unravel the rains. Thus, during the drought, the girls and women in the country made a small yellow clay (called "Caloian") that they put in a coffin and which they thought of as a dead man, imitating the funeral ritual. The women were singing a specific poem, then buried the man in the clay near a well. Three days later they dug it up and threw it on the water to disturb the waters and clouds, as it does before it rains. On Caloian's day, the men were only pending until noon, and the rest of the day they were spending.


Speaking about Caloian.
Does Caloian Ioniță sound like a Bulgarian name to you?  :Laugh out loud: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalo...ia?wprov=sfla1

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Luan is the Albanian word for lion,Luana could mean Lioness.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/luan




The legend is about the Walati(Proto-Romanian) populations, fighting against Mongols.




The Lion as a symbol was used by many populations,The Crusaders,Byzantine Army,Asens(Kaloyan),leaders from Rhodopes,Macedonia,Despotate of Epirus,etc,in the time of the Romanian-Vlach military category.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6mNh_6OslNI



https://books.google.ro/books?id=DOB...raldry&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1547122319740

----------


## gidai

> Speaking about Caloian.
> Does Caloian Ioniță sound like a Bulgarian name to you? 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalo...ia?wprov=sfla1


 http://nume.ottomotor.ro/en?search=caloian&type=both Ioniță, Caloian - Caloianu. Romanian.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

You are still doing this cheap trick,waiting for somebody to type the name inside,then,follow him on his own PC...



I thought that Maramures had a rich tradition in Romanians-Vlachs.



If you are continuing in behaving like stealthy gremlins....

----------


## gidai

> You are still doing this cheap trick,waiting for somebody to type the name inside,then,follow him on his own PC...
> 
> 
> I thought that Maramures had a rich tradition in Romanians-Vlachs.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are continuing in behaving like stealthy gremlins....


You are ok?! What are you talking about?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.com/amp/s/romania...anas-land/amp/



https://www.romaniajournal.ro/alunis...plex-in-buzau/

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Wallachian eagle can't come from a partridge,because Fogoras/Fagaras is the Hungarian for The Partridge Land,like Felmer says, the original term used at that time was Tara Oltului(Olt country).



Plus,the Romanian word,potarniche is kept from Latin(q -p shift) and the earliest Albanian symbol,from a church,could be a rock partridge,that's why Fagaras is a Hungarian translation from Romanian.
.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/potârniche

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another easy to identify mistake by Felmer,the Crescent and star were Byzantine symbols they are extremely common in the Bosnian stecci,stecak.


"stars,often six pointed"


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stećak

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Actually, Luana is an Old Romanian name that comes from the verb la,lau(to wash),from Latin lavare,with the metathesis,since it's connected with the water,springs.




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/la#Romanian



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/lau



https://www.google.com/amp/business-...age-159384/amp

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake



https://books.google.ro/books?id=_j6...arthur&f=false



http://mistshadows.blogspot.com/2017...oh-my.html?m=1

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The shepherd Bucur who has founded Bucharest came from Muntii Buzaului,proved by the places like Bucur's Table,Bucur's Cascades, etc,and many legends about him in that area.


Bucur used to sing so nice from his shepherd's flute,that,in one night,the local fairies, Zane,have visited and asked him to make a wish."Give me strength! ",he said,after returning to the sheepfold,the other men had started to hit him with the bats ,because was late.


But the young shepherd defended well know,defeated the others and force them to ask forgiveness.


Short time after,Bucur has enlarge his flocks and went down to the Buzau,Prahova,Ialomita valleys,reaching Dambovita's Ford in Codrii Vlasiei.


Then,he started to build huts,after, houses,for the children and grandsons,lastly,a church.

----------


## LABERIA

Dreptul, the ethymology of Buzau, Buzaului?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> http://nume.ottomotor.ro/en?search=caloian&type=both Ioniță, Caloian - Caloianu. Romanian.




Very interesting is the distribution of the name Barbat,with the main area located in the Southern Carpathians, mostly Valcea and Arges,also around Tara Oltului, the second spot is the Apuseni Mountains.



It can only partly prove Madgearu's claims,that the Litovoi and Barbat's group had moved eastwards* the river Olt,founding Curtea de Arges.



He went even further, saying that Litovoi was actually from Hateg,where his name is over recorded, in toponyms and onomastics,this was probably among the Transylvanian lands of the Wallachians,who were conquered by the Hungarian kingdom for a while.



*Still, I say that, most likely ,Arges and other Wallachian lands located more eastwards were also parts of Litovoi's state, they just moved the center of power in a more convenient place,located southwards of another historical Proto-Romanian country called Tara Oltului, it doesn't really matter if they controlled this one or not;it is more eastwards than the Hungarian centers,that's why the defense could have been more effective, taking advantage of the longer road,as it happened with the ambush (ambushes) at Posada.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bărbat

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Other facts:



The name Ciobanu (The Shepherd) is most commonly used in Baragan,also appears in Central Moldavia, especially around Iasi.



Viezure,a Dacian name,Oltenia and Western Wallachia




Spulber,in South- Western Moldavia it makes sense since this is a mountain land and in my village the word is used for blizzard, winter ,snowy, wind.




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/spulbera




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spulber




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/viezure


Bucur,Bucharest area and the N,NE and E Wallachia.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bucura#Romanian

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Bunget is thick and dark forest, many times used as a shelter,refuge or hiding place.



The names are recorded in Central and Western Wallachia, plus Oltenia,we also have toponyms.



https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bungetu,_Dâmbovița



https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pădurea_Bunget



Texts from Sadoveanu:



"I was lost through the bungets of those forests."



"The men entered the bungets and started to raze the hazel bushes with the axes".



" He raised his riffle on back,speed up his horse,until was lost in the bungets of the forest."


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bunget

----------


## Dreptul Valah

This bunget retreat,then ambush,could have been one of the ultimate Romanian tactics,possibly used at Posada,Codrii Cosminului,Codrii Vlasiei(Vlad Tepes),or around the Crazy Forest area,Teleorman-Deliorman.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE




The ambush from Codrii Cosminului



https://istoriiregasite.files.wordpr...osminului1.gif



https://istoriiregasite.files.wordpr...ui-batalia.gif

----------


## Archetype0ne

Trasta in modern Albanian means straw basket IIRC. I think even Balts and mostly Latvians have similar cognates. This might imply Gatherers among the population, gathering either fruit or seeds/wheat/barley.

----------


## Archetype0ne

I suspect J2B2 was present ~>3300 years ago among proto-Thracian, proto-Illyrian/Pelasgian, proto-Dacian and Gaet populations... stemming from a common origin in the caucasus >4k years ago, and having taken two separate paths to the balkans, leading to the divide among Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian populations when they arriven the balaksn destination. One path of J2B2 would have taken would be around the black sea, through the Bassarabian gap in the Carpathian mountains as shephers, while the other path would have been through western Anatolia into Macedon - Vardar - Dardania. Hence the similarties, as well as the many differences from modern Romanian and Albanian, as well as the obvious pre-Slavic substratum in slavic languages today in the Balkans.

In Albanian Bregas, means costal people... Yet Breg, or Berg means Mountain and Castel in the respective proto-slavic and proto-germanic languages respectively. Bryges were indeed living in the coast, while Dardans were landlocked in Kosovo.

*"Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phyrigans, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia"

Thracian tribes, Pelasgian Tribes, were among the allies of the Troyans, among whom the Dardans were one of the two leading dynasties ~3300 years ago according to homer. Among the people that fought in the Trojan War these groups probably had an alliance based on common culture or shared values/ways of life, or even origin. If the hypothesis I gave above is to be taken seriously, J2B2 segment of Albanian population were similar in Blood and in language to the Thracians as well as Dacians and Gaets, so I would suspect J2B2 to be present among the pastoral communities in the region and possibly all the way to Ukraine, as well as Anatolia, with a common ancestor in Caucasus, yet differentiated do to the path they took into the Balkans to the point where Thracian and Illyrian had to be classified as different languages.*

----------


## Archetype0ne

Munti (Latin for Hill) Buzului (Buze- Albanian for Lips, Uje - water, Buzeuji - composite for touching the water, sounds like latinized Albanian for Mountain by the water...

----------


## JajarBingan

> In Albanian Bregas, means costal people... Yet Breg, or Berg means Mountain and Castel in the respective proto-slavic and proto-germanic languages respectively.


Breg/Bereg/Bryag means coast in some Slavic languages.

Polish: brzeg
Bulgarian: bryag
Ukrainian/Russia: bereg
Macedonian: breg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And, for the Romanians-Vlachs,once they're in the bunget,they became even more concentrated(ager) at the sounds from the forests, called freamat,in the time of ambush, atinere.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/freamăt

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aține





@Archetype one



...this might imply that you're looking for it...



...this also might imply that I'll start watching you...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Some anthropologists claim that the Romanians-Vlachs had more loose community structures than the Albanians, Greeks,Serbs or Southern Italians,because of the transhumance on very long distances, this also might imply a lot of things.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Some anthropologists claim that the Romanians-Vlachs had more loose community structures than the Albanians, Greeks,Serbs or Southern Italians,because of the transhumance on very long distances, this also might imply a lot of things.


Curious as to the implications. Express yourself.

----------


## gidai

> Some anthropologists claim that the Romanians-Vlachs had more loose community structures than the Albanians, Greeks,Serbs or Southern Italians,because of the transhumance on very long distances, this also might imply a lot of things.


I do not think so! The Romanians were not traveling shepherds. They come from a population of farmers, seated and linked to their places. This is also evident from the linguistic and religious unity on territory of Romania. If they were a "loose community", then all the multiple invasions and great empires like Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Austro-Hungarians and Russians who made big waves all around... would have broken this unity. Which is not the case!

----------


## Archetype0ne

Sometimes being loose is beneficial in retaining ones culture... Nomads are known for maintaining their way of life over millenia with great flexibility. I agree however that modern Romanians are a mix of both pastoral and farmer ancient populations, hence it is hard to deduce much about societal structures. Yamnaya proto-Romanians would most likely have been farmers, with settled animal domestication. While the ancient Balkan component would most likely have been pastoralist.

----------


## Sile

> I suspect J2B2 was present ~>3300 years ago among proto-Thracian, proto-Illyrian/Pelasgian, proto-Dacian and Gaet populations... stemming from a common origin in the caucasus >4k years ago, and having taken two separate paths to the balkans, leading to the divide among Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian populations when they arriven the balaksn destination. One path of J2B2 would have taken would be around the black sea, through the Bassarabian gap in the Carpathian mountains as shephers, while the other path would have been through western Anatolia into Macedon - Vardar - Dardania. Hence the similarties, as well as the many differences from modern Romanian and Albanian, as well as the obvious pre-Slavic substratum in slavic languages today in the Balkans.
> In Albanian Bregas, means costal people... Yet Breg, or Berg means Mountain and Castel in the respective proto-slavic and proto-germanic languages respectively. Bryges were indeed living in the coast, while Dardans were landlocked in Kosovo.
> *"Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phyrigans, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia"
> Thracian tribes, Pelasgian Tribes, were among the allies of the Troyans, among whom the Dardans were one of the two leading dynasties ~3300 years ago according to homer. Among the people that fought in the Trojan War these groups probably had an alliance based on common culture or shared values/ways of life, or even origin. If the hypothesis I gave above is to be taken seriously, J2B2 segment of Albanian population were similar in Blood and in language to the Thracians as well as Dacians and Gaets, so I would suspect J2B2 to be present among the pastoral communities in the region and possibly all the way to Ukraine, as well as Anatolia, with a common ancestor in Caucasus, yet differentiated do to the path they took into the Balkans to the point where Thracian and Illyrian had to be classified as different languages.*


i presume you got your info from this book
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...bryges&f=false

----------


## Archetype0ne

> i presume you got your info from this book
> https://books.google.com.au/books?id...bryges&f=false


Nope, I formed my own personal opinion from a variety of sources over a long period of time, fitting theory to fact and not vice versa.

However... Very interesting source. Thank you.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Daco-Romanians were organized in catuns/katuns,these were more or less small temporary villages that had wooden buildings,used by the shepherds when they moved in the mountains.




Aromanians had as a form of organization falcarea,who was also made from families (fumealj), the scholars say that probably this settlement was originally in the form of a curve
,from Latin falcalis,related to Italian falcatura.



https://educalingo.com/en/dic-it/falcatura




"Yet,the base of both were the families, with each clustered along a house,hut or tent", from an Aromanian study .



Another Aromanian source confirm that each family had the power to decide on which falcare will be joining.



These two structures were similar, however, falcarea was more mobile,present every time, even when they were on the road,while in the katun the leaders waited until the shepherds turned back into the mountains(this is well documented,see for instance the dramatization of it, in the movie " Intoarcerea Vlasinilor","The Return of the Vlachs").

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another proof for the autonomy of the family in the Romanian-Vlach society:



"The shepherds from SE Bosnia,Hum,are also nomads,unlike the Serb,Bulgarian or Greek ones,they share a custom with the Farsherots,that are also conservative: in the winter,people gather in villages,while on the summer dwellings ,that are located down the valleys,they move after a 3-4 days walk.Very rarely you can find a more mature man at their sheepfolds,only their women are in charge there."(Th. Capidan)



These kind of activities are recorded in the Sadoveanu's novel,Baltagul,with the woman taking control of the shepfoold,when the men were gone with their sheeps.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hatchet_(novel)



This type of transhumance was/is also typical for the Daco-Romanians, the Aromanians have the reversed migrations:the summer is spent in the mountains, while the winter ,into the valleys.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

@ArchetypeOne



I guess that some people are more ...proud of their national costume than others,but this isn't a fashion gallery ,stop patrolling, I mean it.



This should be available also for the Serb meteorologists from the Apricity.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The important role of the woman,in charge of the family ,after the men had left is proved by the meanings of the Romanian word femeie,used both for family and woman.



And, for the superstitions from Baltagul, don't get too excited,the Romanian women traditionally used them too,see blestema,descants,etc.,all inherited from Latin.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/blestema




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/descânta

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Hatchet,explained by the Romanian literary man Stefan Borbely,it was also based on traditional myths and legends,at least,that's how I understood :


https://books.google.ro/books?id=T51...oveanu&f=false



The article from wikipedia is not that useful, the woman's husband was killed by other shepherds, who had constantly tried to catch him into a trap.



He sensed something, was not stupid, but had no other choice because he needed to buy sheeps,the others convinced him to go in the forest near the road,where they killed him with the hatchet from behind.

----------


## JajarBingan

How is any of this related to haplogroups and deep ancestry?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"I have three things to say,two are positive,one,not so much".



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8i7pEPYEBJ0



I'm not in the mood for Jewish rhetoric here,the posts about history ,culture,etc. , on the thread are connected to genetics, because that's what real science is,if we're not too theoretical for you,just start another thread with a link to this one.

Ask Laberia,if you don't know how to do it.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Other facts:
> 
> 
> 
> The name Ciobanu (The Shepherd) is most commonly used in Baragan,also appears in Central Moldavia, especially around Iasi.
> 
> 
> 
> Viezure,a Dacian name,Oltenia and Western Wallachia
> ...


The Ciobanu actually comes from the Turkish Cioban

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> The Ciobanu actually comes from the Turkish Cioban




And tattoo actually comes from Samoan,Facebook from American English,etc.
Turkish coban was also borrowed in all the Balkan languages,Polish,Hungarian, Ukrainian or Russian.



In Romanian it also has the typical pejorative, depreciative ,connotation, "a backward man", most certainly brought with the people of the Phanariote rule.



The origin of this sense comes from Constantinople,either Anatolian Greek or Turkish, it is about the " provincial,backward,people, that don't have access to civilization ".



It was an insult word used by the Anatolian Greeks towards the people from Greece,they call them "shepherds,vlachs",to be precise,Michael O'Sullivan,"The Greek Interwar Refugee Crisis...", pg.52, note 21.



The pejorative sense of the shepherd is not something new,see the Southern Italian song " U Pecuraru",that I've posted on this thread,however,in the Ottoman Empire this could also have been a cheap rhetoric, perhaps even regret ,because these were marginal people that couldn't be effectively controlled by the state,plus,since the Turks eat especially sheep meat,they were useful,tolerated, somehow.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's why ,Sadoveanu still is my favorite author,the myths and legends that he described are actually support for an extremely real description of the common ,traditional, man.


He had Northern Carpathian(Bukovinian) ancestry, that has kept many Old Romanian, shepherd, traditions,that's why he was very determined to rehabilitate them.


In "The Hatchet", he presented the shepherds as a real thing,with a rawer life,but definitely not without initiative, determination ,intuition or an advanced sense of reality.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I think that complaining in this way is extremely minimalistic and can't be accepted as a reality.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=njd4wKuAo5k

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Even some Jews had practiced Romanian shepherdry in the Phanariote time,that proves the "institution" was still strong and had autonomy, Sadoveanu and Baltagul are also mentioned in the book:


https://books.google.ro/books?id=KBH...kovina&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Reaching Romanianization was not easy,Sadoveanu says,the NTJ overabstractization displayed in Germany, Poland,Russia was not that useful here, when you had to hit a bear or other shepherds, dance hora(horah) for good,to sink the earth,like for the last time, and,with or without popularity you had to take the girl.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thi...t-dance-2017-4

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the modern urban sense,Ciobanu,is a person who wants to be The Rock or Vin Diesel, a highly philosophical, non-combative/peace searching hero with big muscles,their main goal is to respect the manners,they also have a "clear path" that has to be followed.



One of the persons who aspires at this position has even asked me once friendly:"Why do you look at other people so insistently? it is not correct".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Aromanians were also called by the Balkanics(Greeks,Albanians) chobani,pg.70:


https://books.google.ro/books?id=d5_...herots&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Th. Capidan:



"among Aromanians,by far the most traditionalist and nomadic are the Frasherots,they are involved not only in temporary, seasonal, movements, but also in permanent migrations ".



Gogu Padioti,Aromanian anthropologist:



" In their tribes,the Frasherots lived completely isolated,they didn't mingle with other people, not even with the other Aromanian groups,when one of them took a Greek woman they cursed him":"Lai Nisa let be called by your children only patera(the Greek word,for father)!".



Farsherot saying: "The forest doesn't perish,when the sprouts appear", that's Archetype Five.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Autosomal analysis, the Frasherots are clearly closer to Romanians and Albanians than to other Aromanian groups.(fig.3 ,pg.505).



It is not important for the study if the Frasherots live in Romania, because they are more related to Albanians than Albanian Aromanians from Andon Poci.





https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...H-h2Q5jUsV7ps6

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Still,a German scholar called Kramer,proves in a study from 1989 that the Frasherots had also permanent mountain dwellings, at least,starting with the 13th,14th. c.,could be a bias here from the Macedonian Aromanian linguist Theodor Capidan.



As far as I know in the Macedonian Slavic ,Vlach,Vlas ,also means millionaire, could be that many wealthy Aromanians had gather in FYROM at some point, many of them,perhaps, disconsidering more or less the traditional shepherd life...



Vlachness it's not about money,but of fully engaging in risk and,even more ,controlling it closely,this is something that you all have to understand, sooner or later.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.res...TR-systems/amp



At pg.144,every circle means how used is the Romanian Preterite in the countryside, it represents a very old trait,inherited from Latin:



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...5EpxMuVeTD6wW3



In the eastern parts,728, 705,976,can also be connected to the transhumance roads from the traditional shepherd regions of Buzau and Vrancea,to Baragan and Dobrogea.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

My great -great grandfathers from the Buzau and Vrancea mountains still practiced transhumance: in the winter they stayed in the mountains, like Frasherots, then they went down to Baragan and Dobrogea only in the warmer times, many sheepfolds on these roads and the villages names ,who are the same,confirm it.



Since Baragan is the end of the Eurasian steppes and has an extreme climate,with a not that easy blizzard ,heat and dry in the summer,I asked myself: "Why many shepherds decided to stay here for good ??"




My grandfather said to me:when I was young I went to the mountain villages from where my grandfathers were,they had a good weather ,because the mountains are some sort of shelters, people are also tough there,but they have an easy life, with everything in abundance.



They drive oxed chariots,that are very slow,my father gave me too one,as that was the tradition in the mountains, but all the lads hated them,because here in the plain,the terrain is flat,and we liked to have horses that run very fast,to chase one another, etc.



That's why ,I am extremely realistic when I say this:if I catch a Romanian still mumbling things...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

My grandfather, like many others,also used horses to enter the house,because when they drank(and they drank alot),women usually closed the gates and didn't allowed them to get in ,so they came with high speed to smash the fences.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"The Vlach sheep cannot endure the heats of the lowlands' sun".



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxcGz2YQEgs




It is said that turcana(read tsurcana) appears on the Trajan's Column.



https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...er-valachians/


Turcana:


http://www.anunturi-agricultura.ro/b...na-600x450.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Baragan transhumance:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CgD5JYi-7cE

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The historians have observed an interesting fact,that Vlad Tepes' brother, Radu the Handsome,in the Slavonic texts has used for the kinship terms only Proto-Romanian words like:fiastru,cumnat,sometimes used as a name Muierii(to Woman),Fatului(Son's).



Other Old Romanian names,in the text,Micul,Barbat, Bucur,etc.



I think that he has tried to say something here,that he was a Romanian,especially when it counted.



Another interesting resemblance, with Litovoi's brother and successor, Barbat(The Man),the "name" was probably chosen by the first ruler for his heir, with the sense "The Man,The Mature One,opposed to " The Little Brother ".



It looks that ,when they renounced at the worldwide Slavonic,Orthodox, prestige, for the more humanly purposes, the Wallachian rulers quickly switched to Proto-Romanian.



It also seems that for these rulers,the kinship terms were some sort of taboo,literally untranslatable.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Source:"Tara Romaneasca in secolele XIV si XVI".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> The shepherd Bucur who has founded Bucharest came from Muntii Buzaului,proved by the places like Bucur's Table,Bucur's Cascades, etc,and many legends about him in that area.
> Bucur used to sing so nice from his shepherd's flute,that,in one night,the local fairies, Zane,have visited and asked him to make a wish."Give me strength! ",he said,after returning to the sheepfold,the other men had started to hit him with the bats ,because was late.
> But the young shepherd defended well know,defeated the others and force them to ask forgiveness.
> Short time after,Bucur has enlarge his flocks and went down to the Buzau,Prahova,Ialomita valleys,reaching Dambovita's Ford in Codrii Vlasiei.
> Then,he started to build huts,after, houses,for the children and grandsons,lastly,a church.




The legend is based on reality,because these lands,Buzau mountains (Luana Land) and Vrancea(Tara Codrilor,Forests Country),were remote ,independent,areas,between Moldavia and Wallachia.



When Stefan cel Mare took Vrancea,he agreed to respect the autonomy of the land and rights of the people,who were kept in Medieval times.
These areas had the so called 7th Mocanime,this is the 7th nomadic shepherd community, with a heavy tradition,that was not Transylvanian.



Another thing,the dialect spoke in our shepherd villages is almost the same with the one from Buzau-Vrancea,this 7th Mocanime either migrated here en-masse or have assimilated the transhumance of the Brasov shepherds,because, I repeat,the differences are very clear.



This autonomy is proved by another myth,an old woman called Vrancioaia,that leaved in a shepherd territory from the Vrancea mountains,hosts a man,which she soonvrealize it is Stefan cel Mare,the ruler was hiding into the highlands after a lost battle against Turks.
She calls her seven sons to gather an army,which helped Stefan to return to the battle field and win.

----------


## Angela

STOP the freaking spamming.

----------


## Angela

You seem to be under some sort of misapprehension about your position here. 

I am not going to tolerate this site being turned into a Balkan version of theapricity. Many of our other members are sick of this. You people clean up your act or there are going to be serious consequences.

----------


## saversiplm

Hello guys,i was wonderinf if u know if or how relevant is Haplogroup j2-205 in the Vlach people?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

DNA analysis of the princely tomb no 10 from Arges.


Hair:black
Eyes:black
Pigmentation: dark


Radiocarbon dating proves that he's a less known son of Basarab called Alexander, brother of Nicholas Alexander.



Since,especially at that time,the very most of the Romanians,Slavs,Hungarians and Turks were quite fair,at least in pigmentation,this is a proof of heavy Byzantine/Greek admixture,typical for the Orthodox rulers.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Mircea the Elder,rare painting preserved from 1526(11:23):



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IqPNPx6bZ8Y



How can you interpret this genetic analysis historically?



The Byzantine admixture represents a guarantee, under multiple and,in the same time, ultimate, forms.



We do now understand why Wallachia has kept the Imperial Gold in heraldry,as Hungarian vassal,that had silver,why they supported the Vidin Tsardom against the Tarnovo rulers,even if some voivods had been killed by them for that.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Basarab

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I'd say that Mrs. Nora Berend is also a keen 
history observer,an interesting fact, these Wallachian rulers,like Basarab,Radu and Vlaicu,had accepted Hungarian suzerainty after applying series of heavy defeats on them.



In the end,it was the Hungarian Kingdom itself that benefited the most of this large Wallachian autonomy, with the rising of some very important military leaders ,Iancu de Hundoara and his son,Matei Corvin,that took the State where no Luxembourgese ever dreamed.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc...orvinus#Family



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tlJGh0Zk7q0




https://books.google.ro/books?id=Sgo...20wars&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"Suddenly, a raven flew from a trunk,perched upon his helmet..."



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc...orvinus#Family



Wallachian coin(Vladislav-Vlaicu Voda)



http://monederomanesti.cimec.ro/gent...0dinar%20..jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> You seem to be under some sort of misapprehension about your position here. 
> 
> I am not going to tolerate this site being turned into a Balkan version of theapricity. Many of our other members are sick of this. You people clean up your act or there are going to be serious consequences.


What exactly is it you do not like? I have not read every single comment, so would like to hear a precise short answer. Thank you.

----------


## nothingfail

> Hello guys,i was wonderinf if u know if or how relevant is Haplogroup j2-205 in the Vlach people?


 Here, take a look: Attachment 10964 It is most popular in Albania, Continent. Greece, BuLGaria/ BuRGaria and among the descendents of Volga BuLGars!!!

----------


## nothingfail

> My great -great grandfathers from the Buzau and Vrancea mountains still practiced transhumance: ...


 Do you know what buza and obraz mean in Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian !!! As well, as vrana, too, by the way!!!

----------


## nothingfail

> As far as I know in the Macedonian Slavic ,Vlach,Vlas ,also means millionaire, could be that many wealthy Aromanians had gather in FYROM at some point, many of them,perhaps, disconsidering more or less the traditional shepherd life...
> 
> 
> 
> Vlachness it's not about money,but of fully engaging in risk and,even more ,controlling it closely,this is something that you all have to understand, sooner or later.


 Who told you vlah/ vlas meant a wealthy one in Macedonian Sclaveno = BuRGarian !!! I have not heard anything like that and my great grandfather was from the feet of the Pindus (from Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian sve/n/t and Wallachian sfint - BRiGht, saint) once in the 11th cent. called by the Thessalian Cecaumenos The Mountains of BuLGaria. 

The name is similar to the BRiGes/ Phrygian Thracian balaios – mighty, which in contemporary Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian as bol means very big, very much, similar also to the Proto Celtic BaLKo, in Eire previously BaLC, also balch, today - uallach, Wealsh - balch, Cornwallish - balgh, Bretonic balc'h – mighty and also free man. Albanian PLaK – head, leader. The various versions of the BuLGarian/ BuRGarian name has similar meanings. BəLGar, BeLGar, BaLKar, BəRGar, BuRGar (Vurgar), BLəGar are similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian BeL/ ByaL - White/ PuLCHero, oBaGRen - BRiGht, in meaning similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRgarian yarək and Ukrainian (Old Russian) yary which sounds similar to Aryan, BaLK-an means and elevated place, same as the English BuLK and BuLGe, also BuRG, while BLəGar is similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian BLaG - noble and BLaGodren - thankful, grateful.

----------


## nothingfail

> The Hatchet,explained by the Romanian literary man Stefan Borbely,it was also based on traditional myths and legends...


 How would you translate Borbely and Sadoveanu from Romanian and are the root words Latin?

----------


## nothingfail

> Nope, I formed my own personal opinion from a variety of sources over a long period of time, fitting theory to fact and not vice versa.
> 
> However... Very interesting source. Thank you.


Yet the J2 group have neither dissociated/ formed on the BaLKans nor are among the most common haplogroups of the BaLKans and South Eastern Europe, which I2a1 formed 14 000 years ago around the Danube delta and the Ukraine refugium (during the last ice age) and E-v13 formed 9 000 years ago and most common in Albania, Continent. Greece and BuLGaria/ BuRGaria. 

J2 is most common on the Greek Islands, esp. Cypress and Crete.

Both J2b and E-v13 have quite high levels on the Volga river which indicates that the Volga BuLGars could have come from the BalKans, that is were Thracians in a way. 

The 23 and Me AUTOSOMAL BaLKan admixture shows very well all in South Eastern Europe have been more or less the same genetically for the last 2000 years, separated by stupidity!!! 

Herodotus, the father of history, wrote 2500 years ago that the Thracians (the future Sclaveno = BuLGarians/ BuRGarians, Hellenized, Latinized, Albanians) were th emost numerous on Earth after the Hindus but never had any unity which would always be their weakness. Dis-unification makes the weakness!!! българия_украйна_balkan_y-haplogroup_e-v13__22_percent_among_bulgarians_higher_pe.jpgбългария волжка албания гени y dna Haplogroup_J2b карта map.jpgDistribution_of_the_Balkans_admixture_in_Europe_(autosomal_researches) DNA гени.jpgRed_Sea-admixture incl. E-v13 y dna гени.jpgбългария bulgaria украйна ukraine траки херодот thracians herodotus 2.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> Luan is the Albanian word for lion,Luana could mean Lioness.
> 
> The legend is about the Walati(Proto-Romanian) populations, fighting against Mongols.
> The Lion as a symbol was used by many populations,The Crusaders,Byzantine Army,Asens(Kaloyan),leaders from Rhodopes,Macedonia,Despotate of Epirus,etc,in the time of the Romanian-Vlach military category.


 Yet, for some reason from all in South Eastern Europe the lion is the national coat of arms only of BuLGaria/ BuRGaria: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...?1556454351954

----------


## nothingfail

> 1st map, proto- Wallachian genes,with clear peak in the western,core parts.
> 
> 
> 3rd map, North Romanian genes(the linguistic and historical core is Northern Transylvania).
> 
> 
> 4th map, the speakers of the Maramures-Cris dialect,with the Bukovinian extension,part of the North Romanian dialects,see Dragos' and Bogdan' dismounting),they share the generalized n-r rhotacism with the Istro-Romanians and Tosk Albanians;the genetic analysis suggests that they were the smallest Romanian-Vlach groups ,isolated into the mountains,the dialect contains some additional Western Romance and Albanian elements,even more than the regular Moldavian and Transylvanian ones.


 What does Romanian genes means on those maps? I see no haplogroups!!! Like I2a1, E-v13, R1, J2b etc. l-r l-r rhotacism is found in BuLGaria - BuRGaria българия_бъргария_бургария украйна_catalan_atlas_1375_карта_.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

Now what!!!!! Distribution_of_the_Balkans_admixture_in_Europe_(autosomal_researches) DNA гени.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> You liar!! No J2b has been found in Kura Araxes culture to date.
> 
> Furthermore, the Albanian J2b is in the *J2b-L283* branch, the same version that's found in Bronze Age Croatia (Dalmatia) since ~1600 BCE.
> https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/


 E-v13 is most common among BuLGarians/ BuRGarians, too. E-v13 together with J2b has much higher levels on the Volga river among Chuvashes and Kazan so called Tatars compared to the Great so called "Russian" Muscovites, for example, which means that the Volga BuLGars most probably were from the BaLKans originally!!! According to Y (male) DNA Albanians are 85% identical with BuLGarians, Romanians - 92%, Northern Greeks - 96%, Ukrainians (Old Russians) - 60%. According to Mt (maternal) DNA Proto - BuLGarians' material tested showed closest similarity not to modern day BuLGarians but Central and Southern Italians and then to Ukrainians!!! българия_украйна_balkan_y-haplogroup_e-v13__22_percent_among_bulgarians_higher_pe.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> The very most of this Balkan Sprachbund comes from Ochrid,especially after the reorganization of the Archbishopric caused by Basil II's conquest of the Bulgarian state,it explains how the entire Bulgarian-Macedonian language has elements that are considered inherited in Albanian.
> 
> 
> They used Romanian,Albanian, Slavic and Greek elements for a certain degree of standardization,like the alternative verb for "to marry", which in all of these had the initial meaning " to crown"(R cununa,A kurunzon,G stefanonu?,B vencavam).
> 
> 
> This semantic shift explains very well the term mire,that in Albanian stands for "good", while in Northern Romanian, is the word for " husband ",at the wedding ceremony, the entire semantic field definitely sounds ecclesiastical(ultimately from myrrh, with the obvious association " ointed"-"crowned ");the Aromanian instead uses an inherited term dziniri(Latin generis) and in this respect it resembles the Wallachian(ginere),so basically a divergence from Ochird,nevertheless ,not the same thing can be said about the quite consistent number of shared elements with the Northern Romanian dialects(Transylvanian and Moldavian),for example,celnic(the chief of the shepherds),instead of Paleo-Balkanic baci(Albanian bats) and the consonantization,Xo,u--->Xf,v(very rare,but present in the Northern R.)
> 
> Nevertheless,the entire Romanian (Daco-R,at least/especially) has clearly less (or virtually none)consonantized words:R.preot,(Old or dialectal)Spanish preote,A prift.
> ...


 chelnik means leader in Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian from chelo - forehead. Most of the non Latin words and names in Romanian are not simply "Slavic", they are BuLGarian/ BuRGarian. Genetically per Y (male) DNA Romanians are 92% identical with BuLGarians/ BuRGarians, Northern Greeks - 96%, Albanians - 85%, Ukrainians (Old Russians) - 60%!!! The 23 and Me BaLKan AUTOSOMAL admixture shows the population in South Eastern Europe is more or less the same so much divided in time by stupidity, which Herodotus had foreseen 2500 years ago writing about the Thracains (the future Sclaveno = BuLGarians/ BuRGarians, Hellenized, Latinized, Albanians) that they were the most numerous on Earth after the Hindus but had no unity at all which would bee their weakness always!!! Here is a 16th cent. map showing Romania as BuLGaria: bulgaria Romania as Bulgaria Scythia Moscovia Macedonia Morea Europe_As_A_Queen_Sebastian_Munste.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I think that,after all this time,you,Albanians,Serbs,Bulgarians...Szeklers,sti ll don't understand Vlachs...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJUgnG18SQA

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> What does Romanian genes means on those maps? I see no haplogroups!!! Like I2a1, E-v13, R1, J2b etc. l-r l-r rhotacism is found in BuLGaria - BuRGaria българия_бъргария_бургария украйна_catalan_atlas_1375_карта_.jpg



L-r rhotacism only exists in the Aromanian name of Bulgaria, Vargaria,it is an inherited word,suggesting that they lived since old times near some Bulgarian population.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Asens were the main benefitters of this unusual Byzantine Emperors' indulgence towards Vlachs.


It is very clear, they had premeditated the conflict with Isaac Angelos,knowing that there's a good chance of not getting killed ,after their exaggerated demands.


In similar situation was the Vlach commander of the Strumica fortress,Dobromir Chrysos,he continued to fight the Emperor and to expand his domain without permission,eventually released from prison and forgiven for a few times.


This was part of the Byzantine double standards policy towards Vlachs,described as "traitors,infidels", not locals("they are colonists from Italy"),so without political rights,but,in the same time " brave",meaning"our good soldiers ,whom we always have the power to forgive".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvV...insult&f=false



They wanted to fully take advantage of the situation, especially in respect to their fellow Vlachs ,meaning ,to accept "their" Bulgarian identity;for example, Kaloyan's title,Emperor of the Bulgarians and Vlachs.

In this way,they would have both eliminated the potential rival military factions of his Vlachs and balance the ethnic situation, since in their area the Bulgarians were the majority.



The scattered Vlach groups aimed both for benefits ,increased prestige, and independence in the relations with Asens,they continued to use Romanian as their primary language,Ivanko is an example,he killed Asen,then switched to Byzantines, to betray them and restart the relations with Tarnovo/Kaloyan.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

As a personal remark,those days are long gone,now,to break some Romanian bones,you have to turn into a "scientist"...



The obvious differentiation made by the Crusader Chronicle between the Greeks,Bulgarians, Serbs,on one hand,and the "semi-barbarian Vlachs" from the Nis-Ravno area probably demonstrate that these were the southernmost Daco-Romanians,because they are painted in this way,fighting in sheepskins by the contemporary paintings of the Posada battle.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dai_csata1.JPG

----------


## nothingfail

> DNA analysis of the princely tomb no 10 from Arges.
> 
> 
> Hair:black
> Eyes:black
> Pigmentation: dark
> 
> 
> Radiocarbon dating proves that he's a less known son of Basarab called Alexander, brother of Nicholas Alexander.
> ...


I do not agree. My mother is from Ukraine (the Old Russia), which is closely linked to the BaLKans via the twice and three times larger amount of the BaLKan DNA I2a1 & E-v13 than in neighbouring so called Russia (Muscovy) and Poland, and she has dark hair, dark eyes, and dark complexion - her skin becomes very dark in the sun in the summer. There are many people in Ukraine who are have darker features and I am sure it is not the result of a so called Byzantine admixture. What is it at all!!! What DNA is it made of at all!!!

What about the so called BaLKan and Red Sea admixture!!! Distribution_of_the_Balkans_admixture_in_Europe_(autosomal_researches) DNA гени.jpgRed_Sea-admixture incl. E-v13 y dna гени.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> I think that,after all this time,you,Albanians,Serbs,Bulgarians...Szeklers,sti ll don't understand Vlachs...
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJUgnG18SQA


 And the Latinized (Wallachians) are not listening to what BuLGarians/ BuRGarians are saying! Listen in your own words the - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxjw...7s&app=desktop Herodotus has said 2500 years ago the most numerous in the world after the Hindus Thracians (future Sclaveno = BuLGars/ BuRGars) never had unity in which there always would be their weaknes!!! българия_македония_гърция_украйна_херодот_траки_histor.jpgScreenshot_2018-11-10 симоката гети склавени 4a.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> L-r rhotacism only exists in the Aromanian name of Bulgaria, Vargaria,it is an inherited word,suggesting that they lived since old times near some Bulgarian population.


 obviously it is not only Armanian, since, as I already showed previously, but you have not paid close attention to and making me repeat, the 14th cent. Catalan Atlas shows both one BuRGaria between the Danube and the Dnipro rivers in Ukraine (the Old Russia), and one BuLGaria South of the Danube. Also, as I said, the rhotacism is found in the following words/ names: the name Vlah similar to BRiGes/ Phrygian Thracian BaLaios – mighty, which in contemporary Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian as BoL means very big, very much, similar also to the Proto Celtic BaLKo, in Eire previously BaLC, also BaLCH, today - uallach, Wealsh - BaLCH, Cornwallish - BaLGh, Bretonic BaLC'h – mighty and also free man. Albanian PLaK – head, leader. The various versions of the BuLGarian/ BuRGarian name has similar meanings - BəLGar, BeLGar, BaLKar, BəRGar, BuRGar (Vurgar), BLəGar are similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian BeL/ ByaL - White/ Latin PuLCHero - nice, oBaGRen - BRiGht/ BhaRGa in Sanskrit, in meaning similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRgarian yarək and Ukrainian (Old Russian) yary which sounds similar to Aryan, and BaLK-an means an elevated place, same as the English BuLK and BuLGe, also BuRG, while BLəGar is similar to the Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian BLaG - noble and BLaGoroden - thankful, grateful. I surely see the rhotacism here both in sounds and meanings!!! българия_бъргария_бургария украйна_catalan_atlas_1375_карта_.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> L-r rhotacism only exists in the Aromanian name of Bulgaria, Vargaria,it is an inherited word,suggesting that they lived since old times near some Bulgarian population.


 Do you know the Italian fashion brand BVLGARI's founder was an Arman (that is a Latinized) from the the Pindus (from Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian sve/n/t and Latinized sfint - BRiGht) called by the 11th cent. Thessalian Cecaumenos the Mountains of BuLGaria, which my great grandfather was expelled from by the Hellenized (Rum) for refusing Hellenization and persisting on being Bu(R)Gar-ian! Here is a picture of the area where BVLGARI came from, Mount Tzoumerka (that is in Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian Chumerka, like Chumerna in the BaLKan Mountains in BuLGaria which means sullen and !!! murky !!!, the English murky is even of the same root word!!!) българия гърция епир кекавмен планините на българия.jpgбългария_македония_гърция_11_век_тесалия_епир_ПИНД_ПЛ.jpg

----------


## nothingfail

> As a personal remark,those days are long gone,now,to break some Romanian bones,you have to turn into a "scientist"...
> 
> 
> 
> The obvious differentiation made by the Crusader Chronicle between the Greeks,Bulgarians, Serbs,on one hand,and the "semi-barbarian Vlachs" from the Nis-Ravno area probably demonstrate that these were the southernmost Daco-Romanians,because they are painted in this way,fighting in sheepskins by the contemporary paintings of the Posada battle.
> 
> 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dai_csata1.JPG


 I am trying to say, genetically we in South Eastern Europe are more less the same. I am sure it is utmost stupidity to go on doing what Herodotus had warned of 2500 years ago. Instead of focusing on the differences, which do make us rich, we should focus on what brings us together in ordr to forgive the mistakes and wrongdoings of the past in order to shake hands and get together to work for the BRiGhter future of everybody in the region!!!

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Out of the 4 Wallachian core regions,at least three are mainly related to hunting,Hateg(bisons),Loviste(Old Slavic for hunting ground),Tara Oltului/Fagaras(partridge),while Dragos had founded Moldavia by killing a bison,I think that's a Byzantine tradition.



"Some places were built as bases for hunting..."




https://books.google.ro/books?id=qjy...unting&f=false

Cursa,the Romanian word for trap,is inherited.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cursă

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Do you know what buza and obraz mean in Sclaveno = BuLGarian/ BuRGarian !!! As well, as vrana, too, by the way!!!




My Baragan part of family was led by a shepherdess from the Vrancea mountains,this great grandmother of mine was living under some very rough conditions, let by her parents with the sheep's alone in the plains starting with the age of 10-12.



She was green-eyed blonde,3/4 dinaric,1/4 French-Belgian alpine.



A very manipulative women ,who didn't left too much room for interpretations,she drove the family members with an iron fist,like the legends from that area claims.


http://www.cnaic.ro/projects/puncte/Engleza/baba.html


A woman from Barsesti,one of the "Vrancioaia's villages":


http://tara-vrancei.ro/wp-content/up...itii-paine.jpg


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bârsă

----------


## Dreptul Valah

It is a known fact,in Romania ,lands that have also Old Bulgarian toponymy overlap with the inherited Old Romanian speech ,frankly,I don't think it's that bad,after all these are exactly were the Vlachs are attested the earliest,that already means...political power.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma...ese_of_Cumania


The Romanian's positions in that area were strengthen by the Asen and Komnene dinasties,both very related historically with them,in a way or another.

Yet,if you read the wikipedia paper,the Hungarian and Bulgarian states had formed later a coalition against this land.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byza...Komnenian_era)



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBkP1CuRH0

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.paideia.ro/321/cum-s-a-s...in-vrancea.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LdsUZwrokBo

----------


## Parapolitikos

One theory , is that they were descendants of Byzantine Empire's retired soldier who once they reached a certain (older)age, they were given land and kept as reserve troops known as apomaxoi
The official language of Byzantine empire was Latin until the 6th-7th century, and was certainly the lingua franca of the roman army. That the Vlach language has great similarities with Romanian it is only natural due to the the common roots of the languages, from eastern vulgar Latin. In the same manner that the iberian languages,the occitanian languages, the italian dialects have common orings in the vulgar latin accent spoken respectively in each region. Similarly, Romanian and Vlach descend from vulgar balkanic latin.
Another theory is that Vulgar latin came with refugees from Balkan interior pressured by the slavic or goth population migrations. Illyric tribes should have been thoroughly latinized(in the upper Balkans) as they have been in the Latin linguistic sphere of influence.
Either way Vlach and Romanian  intelligibility should be much lower than the one Spanish have with Portuguese.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The early Romanians-Vlachs appear in the Byzantine chronicles as local,independent, warlords, and names like Barbat are more than a confirmation.


In the Balkans,Vlach leaders like Dobromir Chrysos, Ivanko,Asen,Kaloyan,had exactly the same habits as Litovoi,Dragos,Bogdan or Basarab.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bărbat



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bărbat



There is little doubt however that early Vlachs had a really ...vibrant will,doubled sometimes by the typical wrath(aprig),which can often overpass even butchery.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Dobromir Chrysos was 100% an oldstyle Vlach.


"Chrysos forces were well,supplied at this fortress,since his flocks were housed inside the walls."



"Chrysos,who married here,despite his dislike for her dainty manners and her refusal to drink heavily at the wedding feast".



He could have used this important woman only as a tool,yet he wanted to share his experiences, feelings with her,surely wasn't about a drinking contest, but of "petrecere",that's why he became so loud on her " dainty manners".



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/petrecere



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/petrece#Romanian




https://books.google.ro/books?id=LvV...20were&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In other words,the woman just didn't met his standards.



Joc,juca,is also used for dance,to dance.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/juca



Istroromanian expression,from 9:30,she keeps saying "a canta si a juca" (to sing and to dance),ovcari is Slavic for shepherds.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRHHYh5inX0



fost-ava miss= used to be a miss

----------


## Dreptul Valah

On the plates they have bulz/cocolos,that is mamaliga balls with sheep cheese inside.


http://www.papamond.ro/wp-content/up...mond.-ro-8.jpg

----------


## Yetos

mamalinga, lol

where you excavate that word,

I had years to listen it


mamalinga the soup, bobota the bread,

corn, little bit of fat, a smell of onions, and cheese.

in slag modern Greek means rich, wealth, deposits of money.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's good,yet something's missing...



EDIT

"a canta si a juca"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tGiNLVWkXoU

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The Vlachs from Upper Hungary(free Ottoman territory):


https://www.academia.edu/30713382/CE..._UPPER_HUNGARY



The author Marius Diaconescu is an euro-rusoid acolyte, here's on RFI Romania:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HkL-Qgz5Px0



At that time "Ruthenorum" was only about geography (Vlachs from Ruthenia),that's why is the alternative for Valachorum.



In middle ages Moldavia held Halych,while many shepherd reached NW Carpathians, because of the relations with the Polish Kingdom, yet,many Romanians must have come also from Maramures.



Note the similarities with Ilona Czamanska(Vlachs and Slavs),a tentative to make Moldavians Vlacho-Ruthenians.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

It is also interesting to check the names of the YouTube posters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xaUbU6L7jnI



An extremely bad line: "Although I'm from Maramures myself,Pintea Viteazul was nothing more than a simple outlaw".


I don't know why he doesn't say nothing about December'89,Timisoara being placed both near the Hungarian and Serbian borders.


I also hope it doesn't make you grumpier than that...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Diaconescu:"we hadn't been a people to be noticed,to have contacts, that much with others,what stroked me in the foreign medieval documents(14-15th centuries) is that Romanians' general image was always bad;as a rule,Romanians are fire starters, thieves,lazy,liars,we are not talking here only about the Hungarian papers,they actually can be found through out whole Western Europe,these descriptions are not only about the local communities from Transylvania, Muntenia or Moldavia,but also of various, scattered, populations,such as the ones from the NW Carpathians, Slovakia,etc."

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the 17-19th c.,the southern Transylvanian shepherds from Sibiu and Brasov areas ,decided to held allegiance towards Wallachia, as a gift,the Patriarchate from Constantinople allowed them to practice transhumance in Ottoman territory, like southern Ukraine,Caucasus, Dobruja, Bulgaria,etc,that's how mamaliga reached Ossetia,Chechnya.


Another possible source for Caucasus is Moldavia,since Dniester wasn't a real eastern border,with people joining the Cossacks and becoming hetmans like Nicoara Potcoava and many others or from Ottoman military places that had lots of Moldavians(Bugeac,Odessa,etc).
Admiral Kolchak's ancestor,Ilias(an Old Moldavian name) came from Bugeac,for example.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliaș_Colceag

----------


## Dreptul Valah

These shepherds disobeyed Viena's order to renounce to Orthodoxy and stirred up things in the area with help of a Bosnian monk,Bogdan Sarai.


When the Habsburg troops reached the area,they all switched to guerrilla tactics, ending,eventually, in a high security prison near T-roll.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Under what ...circumstances," Radano,Principe infedelde di Bulgaria* "orders to Venetians 10000 horse armours to defeat Hungary?

*di Bulgaria,because he saves and occupies the Vidin Tsardom

**don't answer Serbs...


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radu_I_of_Wallachia

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> One theory , is that they were descendants of Byzantine Empire's retired soldier who once they reached a certain (older)age, they were given land and kept as reserve troops known as apomaxoi
> The official language of Byzantine empire was Latin until the 6th-7th century, and was certainly the lingua franca of the roman army. That the Vlach language has great similarities with Romanian it is only natural due to the the common roots of the languages, from eastern vulgar Latin. In the same manner that the iberian languages,the occitanian languages, the italian dialects have common orings in the vulgar latin accent spoken respectively in each region. Similarly, Romanian and Vlach descend from vulgar balkanic latin.
> Another theory is that Vulgar latin came with refugees from Balkan interior pressured by the slavic or goth population migrations. Illyric tribes should have been thoroughly latinized(in the upper Balkans) as they have been in the Latin linguistic sphere of influence.
> Either way Vlach and Romanian  intelligibility should be much lower than the one Spanish have with Portuguese.



Is that obvious?

I think you just meant "in the background", not retired".


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5dkOKNpwpI

This cap,caciula,is still in use in the area.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batt...cle_Posada.jpg



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...C_Geissler.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian Cyrillic alphabet was adapted to use the Latin g,kept especially in the Wallachian speech,you don't see it replaced to dz that's for sure.

Kinda bold action,don't you think?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzhe

----------


## Dreptul Valah

De Bruyne,1576-1578


1)Wallachian rider


2)Wallachian archer


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qSFdDy17E1...s1600/004.jpeg



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LZhSp5kJ7Z.../s1600/005.png



anthropological analysis:


1)dinaro-alpine,slight pamirid influence


2)dinaro-baltic,dinaro-balto-gorid

----------


## Fatherland

Vlachs inherit the haplogroups of the local population, they are not some unique case here.

Vlachs exist in all-over Eastern Europe. They are mostly local East/South East Euros who adopted Latin in the years of the Roman Empire and onwards.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Not quite, Merlin.


"Primo enim occur it desertum Bulgariae,quod est Terra Blacti,ubi vicus Ravana et vicus Nifa."



https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9n...lgaria&f=false


Lots of Hungarian documents recorded Romanians living in the forests (Hungarian Latin Silva ), originally inhabited by the bears wolves and squirrels.



This idea is nothing new,so we can safely call it simple supposition, contradicted by the historical sources.



http://mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/73.html

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Even where Romanians were a clear minority, they have managed to keep important ethnic boundaries for long time.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=Lt3...vlachs&f=false



About an Moravian Vlach that came to town:
"He was like a shepherd among the noisy cattle,which seems to migrate without a cowherder,he cannot understand this way of life so he quickly drives his herd up in the mountains, only there he can find peace."


(From Ius valachicum to the Vlach folcloric influences within Central Europe)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

As a personal remark,I could have choose to be conservative like my (great-)grandparents(who raised me,my parents don't enter the charts here either),but since I was a small kid,it was my turn to draw clear lines even since ,I choose 100% independence from my big family and gathered data from all over the places to make my own brand,from American,Russian,Italian movies, eurodance90's,various Romanian influences,etc.,with good results.


However, I kinda controlled these too,that's why there are still a lot of differences in regards with the town people...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the case of Romanians, the y-hg boundaries with North Slavic and Hungarian speakers are very clear:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131682/


The Moravian Vlachs lineages have way more I2a than the surrounding Czech populations, just the same as the Moldavians, in comparison with the Russians, Ukrainians and Poles.


Without a doubt there are lots of I2a Romanian-Vlach clusters,the question is ,how easy to be recognized are these?


I2a could have ultimately come from the Northern Greeks/Macedonians (who lived among lots of Vlachs) or South Slavs,because the Vlachs,as very good warriors always searched for political affirmation, alliances.


Then ,this hg was spread as a prestige signal among Vlachs,I2a was a sign of wealth and power,after all ,see the Asens,Kaloyan.


I wonder if the Moldavian Musat (Old Romanian for handsome)family ultimately had searched ancestry/allegiance from Kaloyan(Greek for Handsome John).


If this is true ,then,unlike the Bulgarians,Kaloyan's name was translated from Greek by the Moldavians.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mușat


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bogdan-Mușat


Or,is the opposite, Kaloyan's real name is Musat?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

From the same paper(around 1580):

"Another mention of the Vlach communities was a letter by the Catholic bishop of the town of Hukvald sent to the Spanish count de Fuentis in which he promised ten or more brave and skillful Vlach men for protections against robbers during his journey to Prague.



Two days later 8 strong men arrived at the Bishop's residence and for three days they entertained the local nobility and their guests with bagpipes and dulcimers showing their musical talents and skillful technique through many beautiful songs."

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Vioara doesn't come from Italian viola,both words simply share the same Latin root.


Regardless of the root(some say vitula),in Romanian the intervocalic consonant also falls,while the l-r rhotacism proves that this term is inherited.

This form appears in other words, Latin in etymology,the typical result for a V-I-consonant-vowel(o,u)-la construction.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/vioară#Romanian

----------


## Dreptul Valah

EDIT

Hint,vioara didn't looked like a violin, in the first place,could have been generally used for string instruments.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Not quite, Merlin.
> "Primo enim occur it desertum Bulgariae,quod est Terra Blacti,ubi vicus Ravana et vicus Nifa."
> https://books.google.ro/books?id=S9n...lgaria&f=false
> Lots of Hungarian documents recorded Romanians living in the forests (Hungarian Latin Silva ), originally inhabited by the bears wolves and squirrels.
> This idea is nothing new,so we can safely call it simple supposition, contradicted by the historical sources.
> http://mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/73.html



Kekaumenos,about the Vlach rebellion from Thessaly,"The Emperor asked them, where are your women?and they all answered, "In the Bulgarian mountains(Bulgarian theme)".



" This area(Lailias forest) is used by the Vlachs as a place where various folkloric events take place."


https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._open_software

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://historywitch.com/tag/muma-padurii/


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/mumă


Wallachian word branca(a hand),from Latin branca,see also Codrii Vlasiei.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/brâncă#Romanian


While in Romanian and Aromanian codru is the word for forest,Albanian has koder that means hill,mountain.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/codru#Romanian


EDIT

Branca is 100% inherited, because it also appears in remote mountain regions from Transylvania.

----------


## LABERIA

Kodër in Albanian is hill. Mal is the word for mountain.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://books.google.ro/books?id=_e4...forest&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Kodër in Albanian is hill. Mal is the word for mountain.



This is not so important, where the Albanian saw the hill near his valley(with the Slavs behaving the same,see Zagora), the Romanian-Vlach spotted his living space,more specifically, the forests that form the hills/ mountains,and these differences took place at least from the Roman times.


"As many as 100 kilometers of forest roads..."


http://www.blanca-resort.com/en/o-hotelu/o-vlasicu

----------


## Dorianfinder

I see your handle is 'Litovoi'. In my family I have a family name Lidovoi that is from Vatos on Corfu. In Greek the name is written Λιντοβόη. 

What do you know about this name?

Thank-you in advance

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's a very good question,Litovoy(Slavic for Fierce Warrior, a "stage name" basically) was very used 800-1000 years ago,in the areas of Greece that strikingly overlap with the Aromanians.


Caught somewhere between the Slavs and Greeks,the Aromanians have managed to signal their status,by wearing this kind of names.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I don't know if Muma Padurii is Sumska Majka,even if the names are the same,because she basically...represents a dryad, that is a deity of the tree,turned into a witch.



https://www.delfi.rs/_img/artikli/20...a_majka_vv.jpg


https://www.zajednicavlahasrbije.com...a2a8_05_06.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

EDIT


About the second picture,if she stayed all day long into the forest,how she got tanned?

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Baci,the Master Shepherd, in Romanian,equivalent of the Aromanians celnic(that also appears in South-Slavic),with no valid etymology.



I think it's a Dacian word,PIE root,*bak-(staff,beak,bill),cognate to Latin bacillus,Greek baktron,,that has the sense,"Staff Bearer",it's not Romance because the intervocalic c doesn't fall.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...-European/bak-



It ultimately has to be similar in meanings with celnic(chelnik),the Slavic word for strategos.



http://www.promacedonia.org/en/ban/ma1.html

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Baciarka Franka,Polish Gipsy caricature song:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw_i49-atg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian shepherd staff,beak,bill-headed:
(doesn't work;search for Facebook).

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Baciarka Franka,Polish Gipsy caricature song:
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPw_i49-atg




I did further research on the subject, the song seems inspired from a real situation of a shepherd, they use the same words here:crucifix,sacrament,kurwa,etc.,the one who's on the car has the same voice as the singer.


At the end of the clip,the driver has asked him what he likes to drink( piwo,piva.)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rufGR1jto_4

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The high levels of mtdna T1 in the Aromanians and Romanians from Maramures and Vrancea suggests a clear compatibility with the Catacomb/Yamna samples from CE ntral and East Ukraine.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x


https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml


EDIT

Lot of T1 is also found in a population with heavy Viking ancestry,the Udmurts.


https://i0.wp.com/thedockyards.com/w...he_Vikings.png


Red hair map,the eastern spot is in Udmurtia


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Pmm80Ds3Uc...-of-Europe.png

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www-history-com.cdn.ampproje...mq331AQCKAE%3D

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Very big amounts/ratio of T came from mountain regions in Italy,like Posina, Colle Santa Lucia,Gardena,Badia.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tvoeaTj5QX73Q3

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian-Vlach catun,as an early IndoEuropean word

Catun is a small village used mainly by the shepherd community, it was also a Romanian-Vlach form of organization,especially military.


Can be related to English hut,cottage,Irish cathair,Welsh cader,etc,"PIE root *kat-,house,shed is probably the source of Romance kasa(thus PIE katia)","the different warlike meanings are explained by a confusion with a similar root *Kats,troops,battle".



https://academiaprisca.org/indoeurop..._etymology.htm

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Latin catena is also on the list,of uncertain etymology,along with cassis,castrum,the semantic group remains the same, chain-house-fortress.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/catena#Latin

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"Compare also from other words...all meaning hut,shed,house,or whole,prison".



The presence of this root in the Uralic, Turkic and Mongol languages proves that it's a pastoral term.


In the IE languages,these roots underwent specific development, representing the more or less loose military-pastoral department, opposed to the civilians political one,expressed at point D(woikos).



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...to-Uralic/kota


This clear differentiation implies important forms of organization and power,already pointing towards the Proto-Balkanite Catacomb heavy structures,with the Traco-Mycaenean migration,and the beginning of the IE ideologies.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://books.google.ro/books?id=QGF...ggurat&f=false


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4OHhcUtuTRA


EDIT



And that's why Romulus and Remus were raised by a shepherd or Jason was searching for the Golden Fleece,it was their main job as pastoralist-warriors to set the boundaries.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Interesting, a less pious Wallachia, a few years before the Asen Uprising:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0rQFrcblQ


It could explain why the Romanians never had the double-headed eagle as banner,while the Hungarians and Slovaks are very proud of their Patriarchal Cross.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=Y0N...revolt&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Cinereus vulture,the Wallachian emblem


http://romaniancoins.org/anexe/stemaw.jpg


In southern Spain,cinereus vulture feeds basically on mammals, mostly rabbits and sheep(90%)."
"
Also,they prefer small carcasses, sheep and goats,rather than large carcasses such as those ofcows or horses."

("Action plan for the Cinereus Vulture in Europe")

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://romaniancoins.org/alte/radudinar.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Tracking this kind of vulture, from Rhodope to Southern Carpathians:


https://rewildingeurope.com/rewildin...back/vultures/



https://rewildingeurope.com/wp-conte...2-999x1000.gif



EDIT


Vlach Orlovic(Eagle,in Serbian),with the black vulture banner:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlović_clan

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian shepherd settlements in the Polish Kingdom


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...edieval_Poland





https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1559818363424

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"commanding to send....the Serbian Hussar officers to recruit Moldavians,Hungarians and Transylvanians and draft as many possible..."



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...f7Xdma4Jqx6zIr

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Carlan,young male sheep in Romanian,has the same way of formation as some Italo-Celtic words,for instance, Latin cervus,Brythonic karw.


It ultimately means horned,compare the Latin pair cornus-cervus,since it's about a weaned lamb that turns into an adult.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cârlan



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/cervus

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Alternatively, from the source of the PIE root kerh(horn) itself, ker,meaning to grow,that gave Latin cresco,Ancient Greek koros(boy,young,son ,soldier,puppet),and goddess Ceres.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...ean/ḱerh₂-



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rec...uropean/ḱer-




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/κόρος#Ancient_Greek

----------


## Dreptul Valah

It seems that these roots represent ties between the Indo-European and Semitic languages.


I have counted them,from an Eupedia thread,most can be found in Germanic (along with Celtic and Italic)and Balto-Slavic,while Indo-Iranian also has many or the Anatolian languages,by far the least appeared in Armenian and Albanian.



https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Indo-European



These things possibly suggest strong relations between Western/northwestern IE languages and Trypolie communities,eventually with a later Corded Ware standardization from where the Indo-Iranians had borrowed.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The early westwards IE migrations were also directed towards the Lower Danube communities, where the pottery,clay figurines,strongly resemble Cucuteni-Tripolye and Middle-Eastern/Mesopotamia.


Tripolye figurines:


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...LJwF34w4exsJ7g

----------


## Dreptul Valah

..shows.the Vlachs shepherds gesticulated behavior, because this type is specifically only for the Vlachs who knew how to play the bagapipe well".



"When he blew air into the bagpipe...all his muscles were contracted like several twisted snakes"



"Vlachmen,as protection against robbers...Two days later eight men...entertained the gusts with their bagpipes and dulcimers showing their musical talent and skillful playing through many beautiful songs."



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...JG9L-rjDnE6IUd


The Romanians saw warfare as a celebration, that's why the bagpipes are the first involved in the "entertainment", it's a prelude.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian play:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=htAQa8hUxfM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo2TrZDqgZo


Georgian bagpipe


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XVOjVxc7lfE

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://www.pontosworld.com/index.php...-tulum-bagpipe



http://www.bigloveturkey.com/culture...ents-tulum.asp



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWCYggMFMZA

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And that's why I don't agree with Mr. Isztvan response:


https://www.quora.com/Are-the-bagpip...tish-invention

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Morlach pipers:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...29%2C_1864.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

IMO,Romanian trufa comes from Latin trophaeum,with the typical o-u shift.


It would explain why Latin branca turned into the sense of branch in Western Romance,while in Romanian it only means hand.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaion


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/trufă



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/branca#Occitan

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Now,the presence of the Tropeum Traiani in Dobruja makes even more sense.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mfvDi28hfyc


EDIT


I already said it,branca is a Wallachian word,that also appears ,scattered,in isolated mountain communities from Transylvania, the regions that were part of the Bishopric of all Ungro-Vlachia.



https://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversa...n_dialects.jpg

----------


## Dema

Vlachs in early Byzantine time were Latin speakers only.

Balkan modern Vlachs are mostly latinised paleo-balkan population mixed with Slavic influence.
They are mostly remains of Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks that got latinised and then also Slavic influenced.
Also they are somewhat isolated from the rest but still with same origin.

----------


## Dema

> Hello guys,i was wonderinf if u know if or how relevant is Haplogroup j2-205 in the Vlach people?




Have you done STRs test? At least 37 markers. You have said so.
No, J2-M205 has no connection with Vlachs/Aromuns and neither Romanians, even tho there is few samples. 

In Bosch et al (major Aromun study) there was only 1 Aromun belonging to J2-M205 and he is from Albania with closest match to another Albanian, Greek and Sicilian.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

"Four times the latter missed his aim,and Ladislaus,rising up,told him,in a calm voice,that it was against the law to repeat the attempt that often.The king,who was also present,threatened the functionary with heavy punishment in case he again failed..."




https://books.google.ro/books?id=wKk...unyadi&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Ulrich von Cili's head:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BwPdvw_y-9...600/Ciilei.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The early split of Daco-Romanian from the so-called Balkan Sprachbund was already proved by Brian Joseph,and this linguistic reality is also strengthen by the genetics,more precisely the virtual absence of the Greek autosomal component,unlike the Albanians,Aromanians or Bulgarians,etc.


However, this Balkan autosomal ,without a doubt,ultimately represents a closely related element to the Greek one,with a doubt I'm talking here about native DNA.


This leaves little space for the ultra speculated Late Balkanic component that had to be "significant" by many's standards.



But the reality doesn't stop here,in fact the lords with Constanople Greek ancestry had existed with a hundred years before the Phanariote regime,however, they continued the Romanian traditions until the last one,see Constantin Brancoveanu;meaning that even during the Michael the Brave("I leave these mosneni/knezes villages to be freely mastered as they were from the ancient times") ,a lot of villages remained independent, sate cnezesti(knezes ones),where the peasants were called mosneni(basically freemen,see Romanian-Albanian mos(h)).



Among the traditional knezes villages,we find today's highland Arges county,more precisely the old Campulung,Paduret(......Forest County…......)and,of course ,Arges,Vrancea highlands(Old Putnam county),Campulung Moldovenesc area,etc.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...TyNPjqYXRpPMb1


My paternal ancestry comes from Paduret,Raul Doamei area,where all the good action happened:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Râul_Doamnei


EDIT


The area was ruled,of course,by Voicu's brother, there are also villages called Corbi(Ravens)in his lands.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huny...otable_members



EDIT


Certainly, when the battles against the Ottomans didn't followed the plan,people took refuge to the north,crossing the Southern Carpathians.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Wooden churches from the Putna land,roughly the mountain area of Vrancea(17th c.):


http://www.skytrip.ro/images/obiecti...0113125929.jpg


https://zdvi.cname.ro/_/62707-biseri...20Straoane.jpg


http://primarianistoresti.ro/images/...ca-lemn-01.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In an autosomal study, 2000 Wallachian samples had been analyzed, they found no differences with Croatia and Serbia,but not the same thing can be said about Hungary,this geographical gap demonstrate that the Paleo-Balkanic connections are very old,long before the eastward expansion of the Habsburg Empire.


In other words , a significant Serbo-Croatian input would have driven the Romanian samples much closer to Hungary, mainly because of the consistent Austrian imput.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> DNA analysis of the princely tomb no 10 from Arges.
> Hair:black
> Eyes:black
> Pigmentation: dark
> Radiocarbon dating proves that he's a less known son of Basarab called Alexander, brother of Nicholas Alexander.
> Since,especially at that time,the very most of the Romanians,Slavs,Hungarians and Turks were quite fair,at least in pigmentation,this is a proof of heavy Byzantine/Greek admixture,typical for the Orthodox rulers.



And the study from Cluj states "this Alexander ,son of Basarab has led the Romanians towards the Avignon Papacy,against the interests of Ludovic of Anjou,the Hungarian king 1345."


To be sincere,as a Southern Carpathian/Northern Wallachian that's not what I'd love hear.


Naturally, the Vlachs firstly appeared in the Hungarian history as ultra-anti-Catholics ,Litovoi,Barbat,Basarab in Wallachia, Bogdan,in Moldavia,yet,extremely interesting, when they had a direct communication with Rome(Corvinus-Vlad Tepes-Stefan the Great),things went...instinctive-it's about us after all.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

http://www.napocanews.ro/2014/11/cer...a-e-falsa.html


Who wants Avignon must go to France,Russia Serbia ,Bulgaria, Greece,America,Germany,Holland ,Belgium,or Ireland not here!

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CKFhubbLQd0


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCiOQ570nrk

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NA34EZACkWY


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9RoBspQiOiE

----------


## Dreptul Valah

To our Transylvanian members:stop this Celtic,Saxon,Slavic thing,now¡!!!!!!!!!!!


EDIT


As for Rome,it only meant, common physical impulses(dinaric),nothing more.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/gen...-etnia-nimanui

----------


## Dreptul Valah

I don't see any specification in the articles that Alexander's tomb was heavy mortared ,very soon after, thus separated from the rest, barely discovered.




It was not like in other Orthodox states,Wallachia left extremely little room for other religions,that's why,for example,the Saxons never had autonomy here,plus they were clearly fewer, and the Hungarian king jurisdiction was extremely loose.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Contemporary Painted Chronicle(Battle of Posada):


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dai_csata2.JPG


Note the hairlocks.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Romanian shepherd settlements in the Polish Kingdom
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publica...edieval_Poland
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1559818363424



The things said here can be true until a point,meaning that,unlike the Balkans, not all the members of the family who runs on the old Vlach law choose to follow the "rules",
customs;

long-distance transhumance was definitely a big opportunity here...for those who didn't want to be judged, preferred to have extra privacy and free initiative or simply searched for very challenging conditions.


A 18th c. version of the Moldavian shepherd ballad Miorita , either a warning or a real situation, it is about two cousin herders who killed a third one who's " more foreigner",after,"they judge him alot.


https://ro.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Mio...ă_a_Mioriței



I suspect that these...deserters were even more encountered in the heavy military environment, some of them gaining freedom this way,see Sadoveanu's Neamul Soimarestilor("The Hawk Kind"),where a routined,wandering, Moldavian captain, suddenly decides to visit the family after a very long time.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Interesting...probably a cover from Galicia,roughly the author's homeland


https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/com...R1200,630_.jpg

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Similar situation is described in the movie"Intoarcerea Vlasinilor/The Returning of the Vlachs,where an ambitious shepherd thinks that cooperating with the Austrians would bring him and his community a lot of good things,by disobeying the fair,standstill laws.


The action takes place in the 18th' Transylvania,a period of unrest in the shepherd communities,although very calculated and ambitious in his wit,Vranga understands that he cannot move things the way he wants,the Austrians had only wanted to use him,after all,and decides to go south of the Danube with his sheep's for some commerce in the Ottoman lands;



the Greek merchants agree on a very good price,yet they ask for really lots of sheeps,here we can find again the theme from Miorita,the man must call a herder from Vrancea that has endless amount,yet,although they seemed to have agreed,this one is missing in the day of the big transaction................

----------


## Dreptul Valah

EDIT


The free villagers from Vrancea,are still called mosneni,just as the Wallachian ones.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moșneni


"Mosneni,the native population from Tara Lovistei(one of the three-four Proto-Wallachian cores)"


https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moșneni


And here the Albanian meaning of mos,/mosh,that was not kept in Romanian makes even more sense:it's about freemen inheriting land from generation to generation.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/moș

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Vrancea, as in Vreanoti/Vranje ,the Basil's II Vlach bishopric recorded in 1020,ultimately of South-Slavic origin.
Compare with East-Slavic Voronej,Moldavian Voronet(s).
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm


In the southern half of the historical Moldavia(Vrancea,Galati,Vaslui,Bacau,southern part of the Republic of Moldova) we cand find linguistic traits of Wallachian type inherited from ancient time

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Isoglosses can be accurately traced,for example,the bucket for milking sheep's,in the south is called sister,from Old Slavic sestaru,ultimately representing the Latin sextarus(reborowing?),while in the north we have donitsa,a term with Serbian cognate.


https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiși...n_Moldova.png


https://ro.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graiul_moldovenesc



I simply can't say that I don't feel connected to the Serbian land...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another strong Proto-Vlach marker is the presence of the Old Slavo-Bulgarian place names,typical, along with the Dacian-Latin ones for the early Romanians,all of these at high levels in the blue area.


note the rare name Berilo,in the Zica monastery charter,where Vlachs from the whole Serbian state that have participated at the raising are recorded,similar to Boril,Asen's nephew.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's why I'm suggesting here to be more careful in interpreting the concept of Legea Stramoseasca(Ancient /Vlach law)...


EDIT

In this article, the customs are described as mainly Dacian with Slavic,Germanic and Roman law influences.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/adevaru...b6550cb834af66

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Romanian parcalab has been lately explained (Radvan;a name that sounds Polish,Radwan,Radwanska)coming directly from German purger,as in other cases;yet ,the Hungarian etymology is more than clear,porkalab.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

A Byzantine silver hoard,containing a headgear from the same metal and a gold coin with John II Komnenos was discovered by the archaeologists in the Southern Carpathians,the place appears in the Hungarian documents as(one of ) "The Vlach Land".



(F. Curta, SE Europe in the Middle Ages)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haram



Other Byzantine military items can be found on the route to Galicia/Halych,such as the helmets from Vatra Moldovitei,exactly where the Romanians are recorded capturing Andronikos in 1165.



http://www.roman-emperors.org/andycomn.htm


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byza...Komnenian_era)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In other words,we are dealing with the autonomous "hoditai" maneuvers of the "semi-barbarous" Vlachs.


Not very helpful for the local guards of voynik type,it seems...


https://books.google.ro/books?id=-71...oditai&f=false



https://books.google.ro/books?id=uXk...vlachs&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's why the Vlachs got assimilated quite quickly in the Balkans,especially Bulgaria and Serbia,because they became local troops,just like Asens,who held a fortress into the Balkan mountains.


While in the Serbian state,things were very regalemented,the superior social category of Vlachs was the voyniks,basically the kingdom local troops/militia,while the shepherds were relegated to kjelatori,involved in both military and comercial transportation.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the case of Romanians and Aromanians tranhumant shepherdry was doubled by the mobile military character, that sometimes had acted as genuine task force,keeping their autonomy and spirit, see BOTH INDEPENDENT WALLACHIAS on the map(Great/Thessaly Wallachia).



Unlike the other Orthodox states ,Wallachia didn' t had dinastic Early Byzantine input(13th-15th. C).



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia

----------


## Dreptul Valah

That's why Mircea the Elder like any others kept all the countries at distance, in a way or another,because he was proud living in his "Teara Rumaneasca",The land of Vlachs(Rumanians),that certainly WASN'T HUNGARY,BYZANTIUM,BULGARIA OR SERBIA!!!!!!!!!!!



And a SCHIAU remains a SCHIAU!!!

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/șcheau#Romanian


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neacșu%27s_letter

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Search for the first page:


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...841#post580841


In the same time, the expansion of the Herzegovinian Vlachs into Bosnia and Dalmatia(Ragusa/Dubrovnik and Zadar) had led to even higher I2a levels in these areas.


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlac...nd_Herzegovina

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Unfortunately, as you can clearly see,my opinions do not have the purpose to be debatable;that's why I always bring heavy arguments.
I said from the start,I2a had spreaded from the Romanians/Vlachs through knez(cneaz) and possibly voivod or jude,the communities' leaders,who were also interfaces with the outerworld.
In reality, it has nothing to do with the Slavs,because it actually demonstrates the search for recognition and economic/military development of the Vlach groups,that responded to the needs of the Byzantine and South Slavic states.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another prove,this time from the Byzantine side,they were seeking heavy connections with the Romanian-Vlachs groups,see the Wallachian/Moldavian title Io(or Ion,Ioan=John),possibly enforced with the Samuil Comitopuli' defeat.


This is the ultimate guarantee from Constantinople,because Ioannes directly connected the bearer with the God himself,that's why the Romanians-Vlachs had high ambitions and expectations in this relation.

Kekaumenos describes the Vlachs forming a T in the Byzantine Empire,W-E,between the Slavs(Serbians/Bulgarians) and N-S Hungarians("Dacians and Bessi"),with a big military importance in the area .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(...itle_particle)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Two of the Asen brothers were called Ioan,Ionita(Kaloyan),the same name had Basarab I,it appeared in the Serbian chronicles.



That's why Kaloyan claimed the Byzantine crown,with no Greek left to rule Constantinople,it was his Vlach right,even if he acted in a more or less Bulgarian manner too.
Still,Kaloyan demonstrated a Greekness,it was a more assimilated Vlach into the Byzantines,proving that he was not Proto-Romanian,not even a Proto-Aromanian:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDJ2nc0mFH8

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Interesting clip,it seems that Vlad Tepes sent a letter to Turks shortly after he was overthrown in 1462,he demanded to be reinstalled,upsetting the Hungarians.


Another information, the Hungarian king Maria Corvin used to recall Vlad from his house arrest when he met the Ottoman embassy.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QC75RXEPopc

----------


## Dreptul Valah

If the Cumans had gone to the Pontic steppes,why Moldavia turned to Cumania in the 1207 map?


The Cumans were a minority in East Romania,according to Papal documents on their Catholic bishopric from Milcov, the law was made by Walati (The Wallachian),who were "of fake,Greek rite".


In these outer Carpathian areas ,the Vlachs had caught Andronikos Komnenos in his way to Halych,while the Rus chronicles mentions the Bolokhoveni and the Berladnicks who helped Ivan Rostislavich,the Vikings are even more sincere,Blakumen,Blokumen.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kDJ2nc0mFH8

----------


## Dreptul Valah

By then,"Greek" meant not only Orthodox, but also Christian...


Blakumen,Blakumanland,it's the same story that Kekaumenos tells us,in the mid XI,the Vlachs(Dacians and Bessi) rebelled en masse against the Byzantines,some of them were defeated and resettled to the Southern Balkans.


The information from Snorri's.... saga is recorded as an anachronism ,with the source in the Viking chronicles/runes from 1050's.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blakumen

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://books.google.ro/books?id=YIA...acians&f=false


EDIT


In the Komnenian time,we see the reconciliation between the Vlachs and Byzantines, explaining the marching armies that passed through the "Cuman" land to reach Hungary.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=2vl...danube&f=false



Timeline 1166:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byza...Komnenian_era)

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Lack of betacism in the Latin elements of both the Dalmatian and Albanian points to a much bigger connection with Rome and Constantinople than Romanian.


Albanian vjeter,Dalmatian vetrun,Romanian biet,batran.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/vetrun#Dalmatian


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/vjetër



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin



In the same time,Albanian had inherited kishe (cl-k,s-sh,in Latin loans),the term for "ecclesiastical "church that the Goths also had (aikklesio),while the Romanian word is biserica,from Latin basilica, initially a military building.


The only place were it can be found in the Balkans is Sirmium," In basilica domini nostri Erenei",if I recall correct.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ecclesia



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἐκκλησία

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Vlachs,turned Russian-Italian-German-French-Polish-Cossack,with a very wide range of action.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nXAU1ljLzKM

----------


## Dreptul Valah

They look Serbian,Albanian,Bulgarian,GreekHungarian
,and even American.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the XI-XII c we see the Byzantines "reopening" the links with the Catholicism/West and both the Balkans and Russia supported both religions, at the time when Romanians fought for (real) Orthodoxy against a larger Hungary.


Byzantine Orthodoxy(Russia,Greece,Albania,Bulgaria,Serbia) remains a "Satanic" cult,always having links with the West (Catholic/Protestants),Judaism and Islam,the split and forgiveness being implied in simply financial operations.



The Albanian/Russian/Serbian/Greek /German is acting like the most of the humans from the West or Middle East:if you give him a buck,he will forget everything.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

And one of the most important proofs is the Anatolian anomaly, the double headed eagle,that was also exported in the West.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Rheto-Romance is the other language that uses basilica as the main term for the church.


Another development that took place on the Latin from the Danube border is the semantic shift of afflare,moving from "to breathe" towards "to find",present in Portuguese, Spanish,Romanian and Rheto-Romance,indicating a military, scouting, situation.


It also entered the Danube Christianity,like the Rheto-Romance expression "anflar Dio", " to find God".



https://gloria.tv/video/QvgKQrkF8XVR3iNqVmPEh97WR




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/afflo#Latin

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another military development in Romanian-Vlach is vindeca(to cure,to heal),that had the meaning "to free/spare/protect from illness,injuries".


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/vindico#Latin



Vulgar Latin phonological shifts that demonstrate a big distance to both Rome and Constantinople,present in Sardinian, absent in Dalmatian and Albanian.


q,c,k,g--->p,b


Romanian patru,Sardinian battro
R apa,S abba
R,S,limba



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/lingua


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aqua

----------


## Dreptul Valah

> Vlachs,turned Russian-Italian-German-French-Polish-Cossack,with a very wide range of action.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nXAU1ljLzKM



The scenes take place in the Cheremosh river area,it's about Oleksa Dovbush,from Bolekhiv(The Vlach town,see Bolokhoveni).


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksa_Dovbush


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokuttya

----------


## Dreptul Valah

The shepherd's axe represents an early Romanian borrowing from the Alano-Cumans,called Iasi.


Please do not confuse the Black Cumans from Eastern Romania,a minority quickly assimilated into Vlachs ,with the main group from the steppes, that,after Kalka,had refugiated into Hungary and Bulgaria.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd%27s_axe



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valea_Iașului

----------


## Dreptul Valah

EDIT


On the shepherd's axe article,why did they choosed a picture from Banat,everyone knows that WesternTransylvania was an Ottoman province.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uhya4g8wo3s

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another indecent act from Serbia.


https://balkaninsight.com/2017/11/15...ng-11-15-2017/



As if I have seen this scene before.
The Serbs are controlling the cocaine traffic from Constanta to the Netherlands, I don't know,yet,if the Americans* from the Kogalniceanu NATO base are also involved.




*
If it's true,it wouldn't be the first time...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Saint Nicholas church from Arges,The Virgin pregnant:



https://cache.bzi.ro/cache/9/60/c800...oara_maria.jpg



https://www.balkania-tour.com/en/tri...urtea+de+Arges



https://books.google.ro/books?id=xxW...egnant&f=false

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://www.myporec.com/en/discover-...do-not-miss/25



It can be ultimately connected to the following semantic shift,Latin animus(soul),Romanian inima(heart),the development is only known in an early document from Toledo.


An emphasis on the human nature,possibly of military character.



https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-di...g-to-scripture

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_I_of_Wallachia

----------


## Dreptul Valah

A document from 1490,about Vlad Tepes
"After he was inprisoned in Buda,the king gave him a house in Pest,it happened that an outlaw was hiding in his yard and an to safety.
When the guards have found and caught the man,Draculea jumped from his house ,took the sword and killed the warden,while the others ran away until they finally complained to the king.
The king sent for him and asked," Why did you committed such crime?",while he answered "I didn't do anything bad,yet he killed himself.If the warden would have come to me ,I would have found the outlaw and judge him ,either found guilty or release him".

The king started to laugh and was amazed from the heart.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

In the old Romanian documents from all over the country we find this clear opposition when it comes to children, fiu and fat are legitimate sons,while copil is the bastard one.
These bastard sons,regarding of the rank had fewer rights and suffered early maturity,being usually involved in riskier tasks.
The Basarab dinasty split into Danesti and Draculesti,the second being of bastard origin ,from Vlad II Dracula,the Impaler's father,who lived many interesting episods with his Hungarian(John Hunyadi) and Ottoman factions.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/copil



While the Danesti had tried to legally intervene into both Bulgaria and Serbia,the Draculesti tend various tactics, from burning people to a more lengthy approach, that was also applied to the Ottomans or Hungarians.



Danesti/Craiovesti are more or less heavily mingled with the Serbs, Later Byzantines,and generally Balkanites, they are obviously semi-Satanic...

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Attachment 11198


Me at 20,tipical Dinaric traits,long neck,extremely long arms,long legs;the smile is also Dinaric(a picture taken by one of my close relatives);but the suit is Italian instead.


When the wedding formalities were ended,at least two cousins (girls/women)of the 2nd and 3rd degree I have successfully chased,after all,the physical impulses are one of the most important aspects in the life of a Dinaric individual.


EDIT


Only a theory,not necessarily true,this serenity-compassion of the Orthodox wedding ceremony can actually work as a launchpad,because you just feel the need to compensate the holiness badly.
In other words,it is this kind of smile that could announce that you're on "steroids",another stance,yet still God's will.

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Note the Sclavene influence,West Baltid and Gorid,opposed to a much more common Eastern, Antean ,look,found in the Proto-Romanians(among the firsts foreign inputs),as well as in the other Byzantine entities,like Greeks,Albanians and,of course, the partially unassimilated Northern Macedonians.



Examples with partial West Baltic admixture(both have Dinaric strain) Mateja Matevski,Miklos Horthy.



Post's Motto:" We are writing this book for the increasing interest of the Romanian researchers for the Sarmatian archaeology.",Vitalie Barca,Moldovan author "The Riders of the Steppes".

----------


## Dreptul Valah

Another example of West-Baltic and Dinaric mix is the Montenegrin Radovan Karadzic,in contrast with the more Eastern Vladimir Jugovic(typical Serbo-Croatian look).

----------


## Björnsson

It seems like people are splitting hairs and getting into minutia, not seeing the forest for the trees. Just think, about the Western Roman Empire and it fusing various provincials to the point of all speaking Vulgar Latin. What's hard to fathom about the Eastern Roman Empire resulting in the same type of synthesis? The amazing thing, however, is that the Byzantines had long quit Latin and reverted to Greek, just as the Franks did in the West, dispensing with Latin. The question remains, is why or how they persisted speaking Vulgar Latin, in an area far from Rome, especially after the Turks took over. Typically, the most reliable Romance-speaking countries, were part of the Roman Republic, as it seems that the imperial acquisitions only transmitted a military government of occupation and not cultural transformation.

----------


## ntindeo

I searched for maps created on the basis of the Eurogenes K36 calculator, for Romanians and other peoples from Balkans. Among them are also two Aromanians (Vlah) who posted their maps.

Aromanian 1
ROvlah.jpg

Aromanian 2
vlah2.jpg

For me, there do not seem to be any big differences with the maps of the Romanians, 
6704_file5097ro.jpg k36t.jpg k36c2si1.jpg 
nor with those of former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and even some Hungarians.

I cannot post more than 5 images.
It would be interesting if other members could post other maps of the Balkans people tested with this calculator.

----------


## Archangel Michael

I cannot believe people still dont understand that Vlach is not some single entity.

----------


## Morina

> I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.
> 
> I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.


Typical Serbian logic  :Laughing:  . 

The Vlachs are believed to be a branch of proto-Albanians that shifted over to the Latin language. Many linguists have held this position. 

Vlachs descendant from a common ancestor most likely within the last 1200 years that survived the Slavic incursions, and are composed of groups such as Istro-Romanian, Romanian, Megleno-Romanian, Morovlachs, Aromanian etc.

Romanian received more Slavic influence while Aromanian more Greek since their split but they developed in the same or overlapping areas during the Roman period together with Albanian.

----------


## Morina

Romanian received more Slavic influence and Aromanian more Greek since their split but they developed in the same or overlapping areas during the Roman period together with Albanian. 

That one branch of Vlachs descendant from Dacians and another from Thracians and Illyrians and that 'Vlach' was a term for any Latin speaker is completely nonsense.

----------


## Gedzo

> Original Vlach homeland is modern Albania, northern Greece and Macedonia www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg
> 
> Until 12th century there was no any Vlachs in Wallachia (southern Romania).
> Vlachs migrated from from Albania, Macedonia and northern Greece to present day southeastern Serbia and western Bulgarian in 9th and 10th century, and from there they migrated in modern southern Romania from 12th to 14th century.
> In Wallachia Vlachs assimilated local Slavs, Cumans and Pechenegs and from that mix were created Vlacho-Romanian nation.
> 
> Vlachs from eastern Serbia are not native population, they are imigrants from Banat (near Timisoara) and Oltenia.
> Vlachs settled in eastern Serbia in period 1718-1739.
> Vlachs from eastern Serbia are divided to Carani, Bufani, Ungurjani and Munćani. Ungurjani and Munćani came from Timisoara Banat, and Carani and Bufani came from Oltenia.


I was wondering, i my self am Vlach "Munćani" but my haplogroup is E-FT186965 that is a sub group of Y97307 witch is i belive mostly commen in Albania and the surrounding area, and belive at the moment that haplogroup is absent i Romania, how is it that they came from Timiosara Banat, did they maby come from southern balkans first befor the went to Romania maby

----------


## Oroku Saki

to Gedzo

You are most likely of Romanian origin due to your surname, which refers to a subgroup of Romanians called Muntenians, or a region of Muntenia. 

You have no relation whatsoever to Vlachs from NE Serbia from what I can tell. This is something made up by some Serbs, that those Vlachs in NE Serbia are some old locals. Vlachs in NE Serbia are ethnic Romanians who migrated to that area 300 years ago. 

Romanian language has linguistic ties to Albanian language, which means they were in close contact in Early Medieval times. E-BY4465 does exit in Romanians. And so do various other Albanian lineages. 

Around 40-45 % of the entire Romanian population has migrated 800 years ago from the Balkans. The rest descends of Slavs, Turkics etc.

Proto-Romanians used to live in modern day Kosovo or SE Serbia. 

It is no wonder that your clade exist in Vlachs considering all these ties. My clade, distant cousin to your clade is a bit more tricky, as it does exist in Romanians and around the Balkans, does not exist in Albanians. It can only be some Moesian proto-Romanian without any Albanian links or Dacian, brought to the Balkans by the Turkics who controlled Romania prior to Romanian migration. The latter is more likely atm, and soon enough I will know that 100 %. 

Overall Z17107 originates in North Carpathians in LBA and EIA, most clades are found there. 

You do not show any closer relation to Albanians, your distance is 1300 ybp so you fit into proto-Albanians who joined early Romanians/Vlachs during the time they lived together.

BTW I do have a close cousin in ethnic Vlachs from NE Serbia, but as with many of them, his ancestry is Transylvania just 200-250 years ago.

----------


## Gedzo

> to Gedzo
> You are most likely of Romanian origin due to your surname, which refers to a subgroup of Romanians called Muntenians, or a region of Muntenia. 
> You have no relation whatsoever to Vlachs from NE Serbia from what I can tell. This is something made up by some Serbs, that those Vlachs in NE Serbia are some old locals. Vlachs in NE Serbia are ethnic Romanians who migrated to that area 300 years ago. 
> Romanian language has linguistic ties to Albanian language, which means they were in close contact in Early Medieval times. E-BY4465 does exit in Romanians. And so do various other Albanian lineages. 
> Around 40-45 % of the entire Romanian population has migrated 800 years ago from the Balkans. The rest descends of Slavs, Turkics etc.
> Proto-Romanians used to live in modern day Kosovo or SE Serbia. 
> It is no wonder that your clade exist in Vlachs considering all these ties. My clade, distant cousin to your clade is a bit more tricky, as it does exist in Romanians and around the Balkans, does not exist in Albanians. It can only be some Moesian proto-Romanian without any Albanian links or Dacian, brought to the Balkans by the Turkics who controlled Romania prior to Romanian migration. The latter is more likely atm, and soon enough I will know that 100 %. 
> Overall Z17107 originates in North Carpathians in LBA and EIA, most clades are found there. 
> You do not show any closer relation to Albanians, your distance is 1300 ybp so you fit into proto-Albanians who joined early Romanians/Vlachs during the time they lived together.
> BTW I do have a close cousin in ethnic Vlachs from NE Serbia, but as with many of them, his ancestry is Transylvania just 200-250 years ago.


You could be right, but I have read and talked to people, about the surname Munćan, and it says its not from Muntenia but gave that name to the Vlach who were around the Hills in the border of Serbia andRomanina were the city Vrsac is today "Banat" and i have talked to a historian, in Serbia when i was serching deeper for my ancestors, and we couldent find anything that should that we migrated from Romania to Serbia, hi thinks we could have come from Macedonia region, and possoblie change ta last name, but nothing is writen in stone yet, i stoll reachers this, some belive that we could have been of Aromanian decent also "speculation" but would not be inpossible becouse my family have all taken Dna test and autosomali we are pretty southern, even more thet the Vlach of east Serbia who have taken Dna test, but this is a fun journy and exiting were it will lead me =) If it helps o my Big Y700 I am closest to one from Dalmacia and one from Albania, But on my Y111 it is one from Romania

----------


## Oroku Saki

> You could be right, but I have read and talked to people, about the surname Munćan, and it says its not from Muntenia but gave that name to the Vlach who were around the Hills in the border of Serbia andRomanina were the city Vrsac is today "Banat" and i have talked to a historian, in Serbia when i was serching deeper for my ancestors, and we couldent find anything that should that we migrated from Romania to Serbia, hi thinks we could have come from Macedonia region, and possoblie change ta last name, but nothing is writen in stone yet, i stoll reachers this, some belive that we could have been of Aromanian decent also "speculation" but would not be inpossible becouse my family have all taken Dna test and autosomali we are pretty southern, even more thet the Vlach of east Serbia who have taken Dna test, but this is a fun journy and exiting were it will lead me =) If it helps o my Big Y700 I am closest to one from Dalmacia and one from Albania, But on my Y111 it is one from Romania


 _Munteanu_ is a very common surname in Romania, so I thought yours looks like a Serbianized version of _Munteanu_. Why does your surname _end in -_*an*? Why it doesn't end in some other suffix, more common in Serbs? Like -in - Munćin..

It's possible it could have this connection you mentioned. In any case, your surname is related to the Romanian word for the mountain. 
Rom. munte, pl. munți
Arom. munti, pl. muntsã

And who were those Vlachs from Vrsac? They could not have been Aromanians. As I can see Vrsac was destroyed and depopulated during the Ottoman invasion, and was resettled by the Serbs in late 17th century and by the Germans in early 18th century.

Well so far there is Romanian E-Y97307, no Y92017. There is also one Romanian E-BY4455 related to those Serbs from Dalmatia, but his result was deleted from YFull. Most likely Y92017 will appear in Romania too, they are very poorly tested.

----------


## Gedzo

> _Munteanu_ is a very common surname in Romania, so I thought yours looks like a Serbianized version of _Munteanu_. Why does your surname _end in -_*an*? Why it doesn't end in some other suffix, more common in Serbs? Like -in - Munćin..
> 
> It's possible it could have this connection you mentioned. In any case, your surname is related to the Romanian word for the mountain. 
> Rom. munte, pl. munți
> Arom. munti, pl. muntsã
> 
> And who were those Vlachs from Vrsac? They could not have been Aromanians. As I can see Vrsac was destroyed and depopulated during the Ottoman invasion, and was resettled by the Serbs in late 17th century and by the Germans in early 18th century.
> 
> Well so far there is Romanian E-Y97307, no Y92017. There is also one Romanian E-BY4455 related to those Serbs from Dalmatia, but his result was deleted from YFull. Most likely Y92017 will appear in Romania too, they are very poorly tested.


It is in Serbian so I have translated it
When Suleiman the Magnificent conquered Belgrade in 1521 and Hungary in 1526, he offered the Vlachs of Serbia to inhabit the completely deserted regions of Banat and Transylvania, with significant tax reliefs and benefits. At that time, over 1600 Vlach families from Crna Reka (Crni Timok) and Braničevo (about 1800 families) emigrated to Banat and Erdelj (Transylvania). - They got huge estates, founded villages and towns. Later migrations followed, the largest in 1690 under Patriarch Čarnojević, after which less than 4,000 inhabitants remained in Serbia, according to Cvijić.
Of course there were Aromanians also, they setteld even in Romanian,Northern Serbia even in Vrsac up to Hungary. And yes i know Munćani comes from the word Munteni

----------


## Gedzo

Also translated from Serbian
Since 1717, groups of colonists from Germany, France, Italy and Spain have arrived in this area, primarily winegrowers. At the same time, many immigrants from Serbia, mostly craftsmen and merchants, Serbs and Cincari, flocked to Vrsac. City of 1804 They received the Market Charter of Francis II. CINCARI is the Serbian word for Aromanian

----------


## Oroku Saki

> It is in Serbian so I have translated it
> When Suleiman the Magnificent conquered Belgrade in 1521 and Hungary in 1526, he *offered the Vlachs of Serbia* to inhabit the completely deserted regions of Banat and Transylvania, with significant tax reliefs and benefits. At that time, over 1600 Vlach families from Crna Reka (Crni Timok) and Braničevo (about 1800 families) emigrated to Banat and Erdelj (Transylvania). - They got huge estates, founded villages and towns. Later migrations followed, the largest in 1690 under Patriarch Čarnojević, after which less than 4,000 inhabitants remained in Serbia, according to Cvijić.
> Of course there were Aromanians also, they setteld even in Romanian,Northern Serbia even in Vrsac up to Hungary. And yes i know Munćani comes from the word Munteni


 The bolded is bit dubious. Why, because at that time, except for Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians who were located much more to the South, there were no Romanian/Aromanian speakers South of Danube. The last of them were probably Slavicized already in 14th century.

Branicevo in 15th century (per defter of 1469) also had only a few Vlachs of Vlach status, i.e. Serbian speakers of mixed Slavic and Vlach origin. I don't think there was any Romanian speaking population there. Again modern "Vlachs" (Vlach/Romanian speakers) from NE Serbia are early 18th century migrants from Banat, Transylvania and Oltenia.

Rather what this refers to is Vlach status, which was extremely prevalent amongst Serbs of that time, even 50, 60 % of all Serbs had it. In Medieval Serbia, the Vlach legal status was preserved, and over time peasant Slavs, and other people of lower class wanted and tried to obtain this legal status which made their life easier. And this only intensified during the Ottoman era. As bar some Christian sipahis/voynuks keeping the status from Medieval times, Vlach status was the best they could get within the Ottoman system (other than islamisation).

Which is why for ex. Muslims in Bosnia always used to call Serbs Vlachs, as 95 % of Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status. 

So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs. 

About Aromanians, it's possible they moved up as well, and I know they were numerous even in Romania in 18th century. There is a study about them, but it lacks the dys458 STR which is crucial for defining your subclade so not all of their results were useful. It's possible that they do have this clade. 

You are E-FT186965, you share this and 4 more SNP's with another sample. Do you know who this person is? As he is crucial for you. Your link should date to advanced Medieval times. Try to contact him if you have him in your matches. You should have his e-mail.

----------


## Gedzo

> The bolded is bit dubious. Why, because at that time, except for Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians who were located much more to the South, there were no Romanian/Aromanian speakers South of Danube. The last of them were probably Slavicized already in 14th century.
> 
> Branicevo in 15th century (per defter of 1469) also had only a few Vlachs of Vlach status, i.e. Serbian speakers of mixed Slavic and Vlach origin. I don't think there was any Romanian speaking population there. Again modern "Vlachs" (Vlach/Romanian speakers) from NE Serbia are early 18th century migrants from Banat, Transylvania and Oltenia.
> 
> Rather what this refers to is Vlach status, which was extremely prevalent amongst Serbs of that time, even 50, 60 % of all Serbs had it. In Medieval Serbia, the Vlach legal status was preserved, and over time peasant Slavs, and other people of lower class wanted and tried to obtain this legal status which made their life easier. And this only intensified during the Ottoman era. As bar some Christian sipahis/voynuks keeping the status from Medieval times, Vlach status was the best they could get within the Ottoman system (other than islamisation).
> 
> Which is why for ex. Muslims in Bosnia always used to call Serbs Vlachs, as 95 % of Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status. 
> 
> So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs. 
> ...


I have tried to find this person on ftdna he is of unkown origin, an albanian administrator for the Albanian bloodline group said that he could se that this person made dna test with igenea and have tried to contact him but with no luck so far, so untill then its a waithing game

----------


## Bekas

According to Byzantine historiographer (15h century) Chalcocondyles, Vrachs/Vrachi (Vlachs) are Dacians from Moldova who settled Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia.

----------


## hrvat22

> Oroku Saki





> Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status. So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs.


Settlers to Bosnia or Croatia are mostly Vlachs who later became Serbs under the influence of the Orthodox Church. There are no primary historical sources which call this population as the Serbs. Serbian Academician Sima Čirković for Herzegovinian area says that according to Turkish data(16th century), Serbs lived in the villages of that area and were replaced by the new Vlach population. 

Which is the origin of the original Vlachs is probably an open debate but they are the indigenous population of the Balkans who later coming to the Western Balkans etc, mostly in Turkish times. It is very likely that there is big Albanian influence in Vlachs or mixing between these two populations. There are also other Vlachs which coming from the direction of Romania etc.

----------


## Gedzo

> According to Byzantine historiographer (15h century) Chalcocondyles, Vrachs/Vrachi (Vlachs) are Dacians from Moldova who settled Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia.


Maby a few, but Vlach in Epirus,Thessaly and Macedonia have much higher E-V13, J and R1b than Moldovians, so my personal belife is that i dont think so, its more that they spoke a romantic dialect and were just lumped in to the Vlach people..But i dont understand why they havent done a large scale and deeper testing on the Vlach people in the Balkans, i know there was som testing 2006 on about 200 vlach around the balkans, but nothing deep just basic haplogroup, and from that you can see that about 30% hade haplogroup I and R1a, that could probably be of Slavic origin, and the rest is Balkan but cant see if the majority was Roman, Illirian, Dacian, Thracian or Greek, The Vlach are a true mystery and scholors just seems to dont give a crap?

----------


## Bekas

This is a good collection of various Byzantine and more recent source, the page is translated with google translate from Greek to English, so syntax and grammar errors might be found:

----------


## Hawk

I heard some opinions that most of E-V13 in Greece is due to Arvanite and Vlach migrations.

But then again this is paradox because the supposed suppliers have less E-V13 than Central/Southern Greeks overall.

This needs more systematic and academic research.

----------


## Oroku Saki

> I have tried to find this person on ftdna he is of unkown origin, an albanian administrator for the Albanian bloodline group said that he could se that this person made dna test with igenea and have tried to contact him but with no luck so far, so untill then its a waithing game


 Well if he tested at Igenea, that is tricky, do they even exist anymore. He could have tested 5+ years ago.

----------


## Oroku Saki

> Settlers to Bosnia or Croatia are mostly Vlachs who later became Serbs under the influence of the Orthodox Church. There are no primary historical sources which call this population as the Serbs. Serbian Academician Sima Čirković for Herzegovinian area says that according to Turkish data(16th century), Serbs lived in the villages of that area and were replaced by the new Vlach population.


 No. The documents they wrote were in Slavic not Romanian. Their personal names don't have more than 3-5 % of Vlach names. These "Vlachs" were not speakers of Romanian.

To say that these "Vlachs" spoke Romanian related language is laughable. They didn't and therefore they were not ethnic Vlachs. However they have many lineages that are of Vlach origin. That's how they came to be. Slavic underclass became Vlachs in the way of life and status and they assimilated the original Vlachs.

Do you have any idea how the Romanian personal names looked like? Ciribiri from Istria are Romanian speakers, and their personal names from 16th century were very different from these Vlachs. 

Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families. Take a look for example at the old family of Poropat. Who belong to I-PH908>Y84307 , they have relatives in Serbs, as do most Croat PH908 (as all Balkan PH908 are proto-Serbs just as all R-Z2705 are proto-Albanians). 

From Serbian DNA project admin, I just pasted it in google translate, I don't have time to do it myself. 
He is talking about the Vlachs of Istria, whose descendants are the Poropats, who were Catholicised early. 

The issue of these first Serbian immigrants to the area of ​​Lika and Dalmatia certainly deserves a special topic. I hope that Pijović will deal with this topic in some of his next work, because it seems to me to be a logical sequence of what he started with the Vlachs in Serbian lands.


What I have concluded from the data I have read over the years could be summarized as follows:


- The first immigration of Serbs in Vlach status to the area of ​​northern Dalmatia was done by Mladen II Šubić, who briefly ruled the area of ​​Zahumlje at the beginning of the 14th century. In the documents of the Split Chapter, Bosnia (which then ruled Hum) and Raška are mentioned as the place of the Vlachs present in the vicinity of Split at the end of the 14th century.


- The Šubićs recognized primarily the military significance of the Vlachs, and after the fall of the Šubićs, they were used for the same purposes by the Hungarian king (Vlach kings), Nelipčići, Frankopani, Kurjakovići. Vlach communities appear in a wide area, in the areas of Cetina, Zrmanja, Ounce, around Zadar, around Trogir, on Velebit


- that these Vlachs were originally Orthodox speaks a source of the first order, and that is the letter of Pope Gregory XI to the Franciscans from 1373 which allows them to build a monastery on the border of Bosnia (Krbava is also mentioned) where "Schismatic Vlachs live with cattle in the mountains" , with the aim of converting them to the Roman Catholic faith.


- we can only assume to what extent the action of the Franciscans was successful, but there is no doubt that these "old Vlachs" began to fit into the Catholic and Chakavian environment over time. A significant part certainly converted to the Catholic faith, they began to speak a Chakavian-Shtokavian hybrid language. There are sources that say that the Franciscans were the guarantors of some Vlachs in the 15th century. And the Franciscan mission developed in Hum itself.


- however, despite this Franciscan mission in the 15th century, we can reasonably assume that a part of these "old Vlachs" welcomed the "new Vlachs" in the 16th century in the Orthodox faith, or returned to the original faith. Perhaps a good example of this integration could be the Dalmatian Štrpci, which in 15-16. century are mentioned as "old Vlachs" who are fighting against the Turks on the Hungarian side, and their representative Pavle Kozul Strbac even got the Hungarian nobility.


- there is no doubt that these "old Vlachs" as well as the rest of the Chakavian Croatian population were under attack by the Turks in the early 16th century, and that they also retreated before the Turks, some of whom ended up in Burgenland (local Vlachs), some in Istria . After the Turkish occupation of northern Dalmatia, those from Istria will return to Dalmatia, where they became known in Turkish censuses as the Vlachs of Istria. From there, some will emigrate to Austrian territory, around the Kupa. Some will remain on Dalmatian soil and fit into the immigrant Orthodox or Catholic population of Dalmatia.


- Austrian sources of the 16th century clearly distinguish these "old Vlachs" from the new settled Vlachs (Rašana). For these old people, they most often use the term Alt Romer, however, although they denote them separately, in the national sense, for them it is all one and the same people. So, when Kuripešić passed through the Bosnian Krajina in 1530, he called the Serbs there both Serbs and Ćići. Ćići because he knew the Vlachs of Istria (Ćići) as Kranjc, which emphasizes that Serbs and Ćići are one and the same. Ćiće should not be confused with Romano-speaking Istro-Romanians (Ciribir).


-even the Turkish census of Lika from 1712, clearly marks these "old Vlachs" after which they as a recognizable group are lost and drowned in larger identities


- *Poropati* are certainly one of the leading families of these old Vlachs, we meet them in Dalmatia and in Istria and Burgenland. Of the other families, I think it would be good to test the Krajina Basari (Basarići) and Catholic and Orthodox, because this surname also appears among these "old Vlachs".






> Which is the origin of the original Vlachs is probably an open debate but they are the indigenous population of the Balkans who later coming to the Western Balkans etc, mostly in Turkish times. It is very likely that there is big Albanian influence in Vlachs or mixing between these two populations. There are also other Vlachs which coming from the direction of Romania etc.


 There was lot of Albanian influence in these Vlachs. One example is the line I mentioned. E-Y161799, and it has Serb from Bosnia, Serbs from Dalmatia under E-BY4455 (even one Croat I think possibly), also there is one Romanian E-BY4455*. So these are proto-Albanians who became Vlachs, and then Serbs.

But they lost their Vlach language in 14th century already. They spoke Serbian when they arrived to Croatia.

Take Medieval Herzegovina "Vlachs", their groups being designated as Vlachs already in 14th, 15th century. They too carried 90+ % of Slavic names, their inscriptions were in Serbian. And their Y-DNA is mostly Slavic. Though they lived the Vlach way of life, were nomadic, they had Vlach legal status. These Vlachs were already Serbianized in 13th/14th century. Ofc prior to that they had little Slavic Y-DNA.

----------


## hrvat22

> Oroku Saki





> No. The documents they wrote were in Slavic not Romanian. Their personal names don't have more than 3-5 % of Vlach names. These "Vlachs" were not speakers of Romanian.


Vlachs which coming to Bosnia, Croatia etc have ties to southeastern Europe. Probably hills towards Albania and Greece. Other groups of Vlachs are probably coming from direction of Romania. There are several groups of Vlachs and directions of their migrations to the Western Balkans.

As for the fact that some of their documents were in Slavic, or names etc, it has nothing to do with their origin. Vlachs live in the area of Slavic lands and assimilation goes in all directions. What we can say with certainty is that the original Vlachs are not Serbs. In Bosnia and Croatia they later become Serbs and part also Croats etc.




> Slavic underclass became Vlachs in the way of life and status and they assimilated the original Vlachs.


This is about assimilation which going in all directions. As for Vlachs status this may later be the case for all population of the hilly cattle-breeding Balkans but the Vlachs still have their original Balkan origin which is not related to the Slavs. As I said, it is more related to Albanians and even Greeks. I am talking here about the Vlachs of Southeast Europe. Romanian Vlachs have their own directions of migration.




> Do you have any idea how the Romanian personal names looked like? Ciribiri from Istria are Romanian speakers, and their personal names from 16th century were very different from these Vlachs.


As I say, the question is which Vlachs are involved. Romanian, Greek, Albanian, Serbian, etc. So their names can be different but one language, etc, etc.




> Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families.


There are no Serbs in Vlach status in general. There are probably Serbs, Croats, Albanians, etc in Vlachs groups but they have nothing to do with the Serbs.  Promotion of "Vlach status" in Serbian historiography is mostly because most Serbs are actually of Vlach descent which have nothing to do with the original Serbs. Since these are large numbers, they call it "Status"(so that no one would think of another origin of Serbs). That's what academician Noel Malcolm or Polish historian Ilona Czamańska claim. Or Croatian-American historian Ivo Banac in his book which won first prize in America for year 83. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs...egovina#Legacy




> Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families. Take a look for example at the old family of Poropat. Who belong to I-PH908>Y84307 , they have relatives in Serbs, as do most Croat PH908 (as all Balkan PH908 are proto-Serbs just as all R-Z2705 are proto-Albanians).


Unfortunately I-PH908 has nothing to do with proto Serbs. This mutation has no source in Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatia. For now, this mutation, like the others in the branch S17250 very likely have to do with proto Croats or White Croats which coming to Roman Dalmatia and later become this or that.

See https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia




> From Serbian DNA project admin, I just pasted it in google translate, I don't have time to do it myself.
> He is talking about the Vlachs of Istria, whose descendants are the Poropats, who were Catholicised early.


Serbian DNA project is only good for raw genetic data. Everything else is not usable for some big conclusions. They address their audience.




> There was lot of Albanian influence in these Vlachs. One example is the line I mentioned. E-Y161799, and it has Serb from Bosnia, Serbs from Dalmatia under E-BY4455 (even one Croat I think possibly), also there is one Romanian E-BY4455*. So these are proto-Albanians who became Vlachs, and then Serbs.


It is an assimilation which goes in all directions. I've talked about that before.




> But they lost their Vlach language in 14th century already. They spoke Serbian when they arrived to Croatia.


They do not speak Serbian when they come to Croatia. They speak the Slavic language. Where they adopted that Slavic language is a question. Whether it is from before ie from the Slavs of Greece, or from Macedonia, Montenegro, southern Serbia, Croatia, etc. 





> Take Medieval Herzegovina "Vlachs", their groups being designated as Vlachs already in 14th, 15th century. They too carried 90+ % of Slavic names, their inscriptions were in Serbian.


First we need to see what it's about (their inscriptions)? Like I said it’s assimilation. However, they have nothing to do with the Serbs in terms of common origin, ie that the Vlachs would actually be Serbs. 




> And their Y-DNA is mostly Slavic.


Yes, that's the assimilation we were talking about. The Vlachs also became part of the Slavs. 




> These Vlachs were already Serbianized in 13th/14th century.


These are probably parts of the Vlachs that were under Serbian rule. However assimilation took place a century or two later. According to Austrian historian Karl Kaser Vlachs in Croatia were assimilated into the Serbian ethnos during the 17th century. Also in Croatian, etc.

----------


## Riverman

> I heard some opinions that most of E-V13 in Greece is due to Arvanite and Vlach migrations.
> 
> But then again this is paradox because the supposed suppliers have less E-V13 than Central/Southern Greeks overall.
> 
> This needs more systematic and academic research.


This can easily be solved with a couple of hundreds of terminal clade/NGS tested samples from each group and region.

But Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Romania are not exactly overtested. The Albanian reference is ok, but the comparison is rather pure.

But its already sure, imho, it won't be just one source. The island and Anatolian Greeks and Turks will prove to be important.

----------


## Gedzo

> Well if he tested at Igenea, that is tricky, do they even exist anymore. He could have tested 5+ years ago.


Yes they still exist, and i have contacted igenea if they maby can help me to find him, so am waiting for an for them to respond back to me

----------

