# Europe Forum > European News & Hot Topics >  Kosovo

## Garrick

LeBrok
Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.

But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.

Sparkley explained very clearly:




> The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.


If someone cannot take account complexity of situation, Syria would quickly lost Shiites and all ethnic and religious groups that have supported Assad. You agree that it is not good solution.

Key decision makers can improve the ways how to solve complex problems. I think it is not good strategy win-lost, where one side gets all and another nothing. In a long term win-win solutions are the best.

You have an example of Kosovo. Before 1999 in Kosovo lived Serbs, Gorans, Roma etc. After 1999 Kosovo became ethnically pure Albanian.

It is not good for all, including Albanians. Today Kosovo is least developed part of Europe and very poor. Serbia has a lot invested in Kosovo and, for a time 20-30 years ago, Kosovo had a very rapid development. Sustainability is a problem in the long term. Kosovo today would have much better perspective that the Serbs remained.

And certainly it could be found a win-win solution. Complex problems require a longer time to solution but solutions are long-term and sustainable, quick solutions are wrong. And to reiterate what I said, democracy is the best way, but for democracy specific conditions must be created, it takes a more time and engagement, but leads to much better and more sustainable solutions.

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## FBS

> @LeBrok
> The definition of democracy? OK, let me remember from high school... it was somewhere in old Greece - We lay down in the sun, theoretizing and making philosophy, while slaves work for us. Good enough?
> 
> @FBS
> Maybe we share same views, I don't know much about him. Anyway, I doubt I'd be soldier for anyone.
> 
> @Alan Don't overreact. There is no hatred for everything that is American. Just for that part where they intrude on others, and impose them their democracy.
> 
> 
> ...


I agree regarding the Kurdish question. But, there is something going on even in Turkey. If you sit and talk with Turkish people who live abroad but go to Turkey very often, they have a feeling that there is something wrong going on with their country, same feeling of uncertainty that we had in Yugoslavia before everything went "down the drains". So: Iraq, Syria, most probably Iran and the last one will be Turkey?! Is it possible? - even I do not believe in it, and I listened in disbelief the Turks who were speaking in fear of their country future, and possible involvement of US in partitioning it, but there is a "smoke" I guess. Even though political stances and plans might change overnight, that is how we humans are - adaptable and opportunistic. Turks fear that Erdogan has a mission in destroying Turkey, something that Serb citizens used to say about Milosevic, claiming that he was a CIA guy, before the heavy conflicts started. Fiction?

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## FBS

> LeBrok
> Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.
> 
> But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.
> 
> Sparkley explained very clearly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally. 

We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27. 

We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Monte...09874715710558. 

The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics...4&nav_id=87062. 

Croat president visited the small community of Croats in Janjeva http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=2,6,3015.

Kosovo is multi-ethnic. Albanian, Serbian and Turkish language are official languages and English. All the official documents are in four languages, and my recent birth certificate was signed by a Serb that works in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Kosovo.

The only problem is that Serb community in the north does not want to get integrated in Kosovo system since they do not recognize Kosovo (mind you it is a parallel system created for the sake of crime & shady businesses since they do not pay taxes to anyone) while they do not bother about the Serbs that are in other parts of Kosovo.

The final results of the international involvement in Kosovo for us “mortals” are very good. Finally we have started to breathe and live normally, with no tanks and military on the streets, no tear gas and no curfews. You should first visit the country that you are talking about and then write about them. I see that you have no clue what is going on in Kosovo.

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## FBS

@Garrick

One more link regarding the Gorani and Bosniak community and the visit of Minister (of Kosovo) who is a Serb: http://www.demotix.com/news/2486653/...#media-2484843

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## Garrick

> I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally. 
> 
> We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
> Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27. 
> 
> We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Monte...09874715710558. 
> 
> The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics...4&nav_id=87062. 
> 
> ...


You can see. According last census performed in Yugoslavia, in Kosovo lived:

Serbs and Montenegrins 15.12%
Bosniacs and Gorans (then writted as Muslims) 3.7%
Roma 2.15%
Turks 0.79%
Croats 0.55%

After only several months 1999, Kosovo became almost ethnically pure. People have become refugees.
Today all minorities in Kosovo about you write are less than 7%. And it is reality.

If in Syria apply the same principle the same can happen. And, you agree, it is not good way.

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## FBS

I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself. 

@Garrick
Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.

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## Ike

Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)

For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..

There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).

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## Garrick

> I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself. 
> 
> @Garrick
> Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.


I am talking about Syria.

Quick solution for Serbia led that Kosovo today is ethnic cleanest land in Europe. Over 93% inhabitants of Kosovo today are Albanians. You almost cannot find no country from south to north of Europe so ethnically pure.

Syria can be same example if key decision makers make quick fixes. Problems are complex and require adequate and sustainable long-term solutions. This requires more time and commitment but in the long run leads to winning position.

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## Garrick

> Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)
> 
> For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..
> 
> There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).


Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.

American Cato institute (2000):

http://www.cato.org/publications/com...victory-kosovo

“NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.

Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.

Gen. Klaus Reinhardt, head of the NATO “peacekeeping” force (KFOR), admits that Kosovo remains too dangerous for the 150,000 to 250,000 refugees to return.”

American Cato institute (2013):

http://www.cato.org/publications/com...ggest-fool-all

“Of course, Clinton ignored the fact that the triumphant ethnic Albanians then engaged in their own campaign of ethnic cleansing — while U.S. troops were occupying Kosovo.”

And in Syria this situation can be repeated. The solution is not that Alawites and all ethnic and religious groups who support President Mr. Assad be wiped out. Solution for Syria should be long-term and sustainable. Of course democracy is the best way.

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## Ike

Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)

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## Sile

> Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.
> 
> American Cato institute (2000):
> 
> http://www.cato.org/publications/com...victory-kosovo
> 
> “NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.
> 
> Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.
> ...


the old french proposal ( when they ran syria decades ago) is being talked about as a political solution.....it is ...to split the nation in 3

Syria in the south
Assyria in middle and give the kurds some lands up north. Of course the turks and iraqs do not want to see a Kurdistan :Rolleyes:

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## FBS

> Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)


Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...

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## Ike

If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)

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## Garrick

> Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...


Look this video:




> That video can answer to you (i think u have see).
> 
> 
> In internet u can find so many video like this subbed in italian.


In Albania, Serbs was banned all: Serbian names and surnames, Serbian language, religion, culture, the right to education in their own language, basic human rights, etc. From the thirties to nineties Serbs in Albania are almost albanized. You can see in this video that in time king Zogu were discriminatory laws against Serbs. And especially discriminatory laws were in time of rule of Communist Enver Hoxa. Serbs and Montenegrins are prohibited ethnicity and violated human rights.

On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.

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## FBS

> If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)


This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.

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## FBS

There have always been bad things going on in Balkans between the nations on all sides, and there have been some nasty deeds from Serbian side since 1912 on Albanians. But now things are different, Balkans is trying to move on and join EU. Digging the past and becoming bitter about it will not help forget and forgive and try to see the future. 

To balance your one sided "truth" try to read some of this: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/chap3.htm. Otherwise I hate to dig in the bitter past, but since you are bringing up the issue of Serbs in Albania that are none of my concern, since I am in Kosovo and I was part of Yugoslavia, I brought up the issue of Albanians in Kosovo under the governance of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

Things are never black and white, minorities exist everywhere and it is a hard work for the majority to get passed their egos, and in Kosovo is definitely going to get better. Why? Because the best solution for Kosovo is to get to EU - and one cannot get to be a part of a certain community if does not respect the regulations of that same community.

So let us focus each of us on making our own states better instead of digging the past and trying to find the wrongdoing only on the other side.

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## Luan

On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.[/QUOTE]

More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.

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## Ike

> This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.


That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period? 


Kosovo demographics.jpg

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## Garrick

> More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.


Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.

Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.

Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
Two related reasons.
1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and 
2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.

And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.

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## Luan

> Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.
> 
> Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.
> 
> Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
> Two related reasons.
> 1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and 
> 2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.
> 
> And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.


My god, is this what serb government is teaching. I told you, I lived through the serbian control of Kosova, My eyes don't lie, and my parents neither. My Grandfather is 97 years old and still has memories what its was like. You may try to persuade non Albanians with your lies but we Albanian in Kosova will always know the truth. It wont change the stats of Kosova. We are free now.

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## Luan

Speaking of Montenegrins, they too didn't want to be with serbia and left by majority.

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## Ike

> My god, is this what serb government is teaching. I told you, I lived through the serbian control of Kosova, My eyes don't lie, and my parents neither. My Grandfather is 97 years old and still has memories what its was like. You may try to persuade non Albanians with your lies but we Albanian in Kosova will always know the truth. It wont change the stats of Kosova. We are free now.


We don't have to try anything. Facts speak for themselves. Where are answers to my questions?

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## Knovas

As a Catalan, I totally respect Kosovo and Montenegro. You'll always have our support.

Greetings.

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## Garrick

> Speaking of Montenegrins, they too didn't want to be with serbia and left by majority.


Montenegro was republic in SFR Yugoslavia and in SR Yugoslavia, as Serbia. Montenegro could do what wanted. Montenegro was one of six republics of SFR Yugoslavia. They choose to live with Serbia 1991 in SR Yugoslavia, 2002 country changed name in Serbia and Montenegro and 2006 Montenegro became state. It is all ok. I love Montenegrins, they are wonderful and brave people, and a lot of Serbs have roots in Montenegro (Shumadia and Belgrade, especially). Montenegro there is no topic, but Kosovo, and majority Montenegrins together with the Serbs after June 1999 left Kosovo.

Topic was on Syria and it is complex problem. And a lot of politicians in the West these days, including American President Mr. Obama, compared Syria with Kosovo. Because Kosovo was complex problem too. And for Kosovo applied a quick fix. Quick solution led to ethnic cleansing, today in Kosovo live less than 7% Serbs, Montenegrins, Gorans, Roma and all other peoples who are not Albanians. In Syria is similar, if one side gets all (win-lost situation), there will be a lot of refugees. Syria have different religious and ethnic group as Kosovo had before 1999.

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## Garrick

> As a Catalan, I totally respect Kosovo and Montenegro. You'll always have our support.
> 
> Greetings.


Respect is commendable. But you should know that it is different situation.

Serbia and Montenegro were two republics of Yugoslavia. It is similar as Catalonia and Valencia.

But Kosovo was part of Serbia, as for example Pyrenees is part of Catalonia. I doubt you would be glad that Pyrenees be independent of Catalonia, this would mean Catalonia to be reduced. Just an example (no offense).

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## Marko94

> Ruga is not a street in venetian, its a minor noble family from Feltre, who had possessions in Durres and Treviso. In treviso, he had Borgo Ruga, Borgo is Borough in English, basically a walled Hamlet comprising of about 40 families, where artisans, blacksmiths, carpenters etc would create their works and sell to passing merchants.
> *Giacomo de Ruga di fu Lazzaro da Paderno*
> Bold means Giacomo of Ruga Family , son of deceased Lazzaro of Paderno ( Lazzaro being the father of Giacomo)
> 
> A paved street in venetian is a CALLE, an unpaved street is a TROI.
> 
> The stradioti where light cavalry usually mercenaries and where hired by Venice, Naples, France and a few other nations........they where very good cavalry but unreliable to follow orders in battle and always sought the baggage train of the enemy. They cost Venice a chance to capture the French King, Charles at the battle of Fornovo


http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/aree/A...lbanese-145455

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## Sile

> http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/aree/A...lbanese-145455


But italian is not venetian....2 different languages.........my relatives speak 3 languages, Venetian, Italian and English.

Ruga in Venetian means caterpillar or grub , it does not mean street.

Ruga in Italian means a wrinkle - if italians used it in albania , it must have meant a curved path or ditch

So your reference on ruga in Albania meaning street was in Italian language and since Mussolini times when Italians where in Albania, tirana, durres.

The only places venetians where in albania in venetian republic times was Duruzzo ( durres) and Butrint ( only there to prevent ottoman invasion jumping off point to Corfu)

BTW, your link states that in *Albanian language* Rruga means a street

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## Marko94

> But italian is not venetian....2 different languages.........my relatives speak 3 languages, Venetian, Italian and English.
> 
> Ruga in Venetian means caterpillar or grub , it does not mean street.
> 
> Ruga in Italian means a wrinkle - if italians used it in albania , it must have meant a curved path or ditch
> 
> So your reference on ruga in Albania meaning street was in Italian language and since Mussolini times when Italians where in Albania, tirana, durres.
> 
> The only places venetians where in albania in venetian republic times was Duruzzo ( durres) and Butrint ( only there to prevent ottoman invasion jumping off point to Corfu)
> ...


I don't have said venetian dialect and italian language are the same language.
The title of book is "Rruga", this term is used in albanian language (i go to find on google translate and it exist) for indicate the street.
Also in venetian dialect is used that term, in this you can find the term "rùga": http://www.veneziasi.it/it/curiosita...veneziano.html (find rùga).
In that book is divided in dialect->albanian (exemple ruga or another term used in a dialect venetian or another) and italian->albanian.

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## Sile

> I don't have said venetian dialect and italian language are the same language.
> The title of book is "Rruga", this term is used in albanian language (i go to find on google translate and it exist) for indicate the street.
> Also in venetian dialect is used that term, in this you can find the term "rùga": http://www.veneziasi.it/it/curiosita...veneziano.html (find rùga).
> In that book is divided in dialect->albanian (exemple ruga or another term used in a dialect venetian or another) and italian->albanian.


firstly as per ALL linguistic professors, there are no languages, they are all dialects .

from your link
*Rùga*: deriva dal francese _rue_ e indica alcune vie abbastanza larghe fiancheggiate da abitazioni e botteghe

Do, you know Italian, this is written in Italian,.............. it says.......*from the french language, Rue indicating wide areas of homes and shops ( bottega in venetian )* .........but Borgo is the correct word

I do not know what type of drug this italian writer of your link was on , but these are all the meaning from middleages to present in venetian
troi/troj = dirt track
calle/cale = paved street ( pronounced kay)
dirt road = caveagna
secondary road = fodra
paved road = stradon
road edge = dejo

to conclude , you are only confirming to me that Albanian is a recent language to europe that needs to borrow words from others and fabricate a different meaning. I see no ancient text in the albanian language

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## Marko94

> firstly as per ALL linguistic professors, there are no languages, they are all dialects .
> 
> from your link
> *Rùga*: deriva dal francese _rue_ e indica alcune vie abbastanza larghe fiancheggiate da abitazioni e botteghe
> 
> Do, you know Italian, this is written in Italian,.............. it says.......*from the french language, Rue indicating wide areas of homes and shops ( bottega in venetian )* .........but Borgo is the correct word
> 
> I do not know what type of drug this italian writer of your link was on , but these are all the meaning from middleages to present in venetian
> troi/troj = dirt track
> ...


I don't understand you.
The albanian use a ruga term, this term is used for indicate the "street" but also the venetian used that term.
But where take that term? The albanian take a term from venetian and venetian take a term from french. 
French (rua)->Venetian (rùga)->Albanian (ruga).
Now you have understand?
The link (http://www.veneziasi.it/it/curiosita...veneziano.html) is just a explanatian where the venetian have take that term.
Rùga in venetian dialect is used for indicate the "large street" (vie abbastanza larghe).





> to conclude , you are only confirming to me that Albanian is a recent language to europe that needs to borrow words from others and fabricate a different meaning.


I don't understand your affermation, according to you the french,spanish and other are a young language because it have take "words" from other language (latin)??




> i see no ancient text in the albanian language


I think don't need, just a contamination of latin culture in albanian language is an answer.
The albanian language is just a mixture of many languages, and it is caused because they were always conquered.

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## Sile

> I don't understand you.
> The albanian use a ruga term, this term is used for indicate the "street" but also the venetian used that term.
> But where take that term? The albanian take a term from venetian and venetian take a term from french. 
> French (rua)->Venetian (rùga)->Albanian (ruga).
> Now you have understand?
> The link (http://www.veneziasi.it/it/curiosita...veneziano.html) is just a explanatian where the venetian have take that term.
> Rùga in venetian dialect is used for indicate the "large street" (vie abbastanza larghe).


You clearly do not know Italian, this * abbastanza larghe* means broad area ..........Ruga is not venetian for street, its most probably a fabricated term used in Albania by albanians. It has never been in use as a street from all the venetian archives I have read from the 13th century until today.




> I don't understand your affermation, according to you the french,spanish and other are a young language because it have take "words" from other language (latin)??


 it seems albanian took a lot of words from Italian which is a language artificially created by one man called Dante. Italian was never created by the community as the rest of the world in regards to languages. it was a language created by Dante for the merchant and artisian classes of Italy. the nobility spoke in Latin when they where communicating with different regions. And the peasants spoke the regional language. Dante created words with one meaning and people changed them over time to reflect other meanings. Like the word Bordello, in Dante's books it means noisy , the same as it is meant in venetian. because he borrowed it from Venetian. But in italian, Bordello means a brothel...........italians completely changed the original Dante meaning. They could have seen an 11th century meaning of a Borgo Ruga in veneto and saw a wide area of houses and shops and then the Italians changed it and said it was a wide street ......Italian vocambulary in very small compared to the regional languages. It does not even include all the latin letters.

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## Garrick

> How you can said young language??
> What you mean for "young language"???
> Albanian language is just a mix, don't is a new language.


Mix, yes, young mix.

Albanian is young language.

What some Albanians propagate that Albanian derives from the ancient Balkan languages ​​is construct an unrelated meanings, pseudoscience, not even it that let's be realistic.

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## Marko94

> You clearly do not know Italian, this * abbastanza larghe* means broad area ..........Ruga is not venetian for street, its most probably a fabricated term used in Albania by albanians. It has never been in use as a street from all the venetian archives I have read from the 13th century until today.


Ok,ok the glossary is wrong, the book wite by it and pubblicate by mondadori ( i think by mondadori) is wrong and i don't know italian  :Good Job: .







> it seems albanian took a lot of words from Italian which is a language artificially created by one man called Dante. Italian was never created by the community as the rest of the world in regards to languages. it was a language created by Dante for the merchant and artisian classes of Italy. the nobility spoke in Latin when they where communicating with different regions. And the peasants spoke the regional language. Dante created words with one meaning and people changed them over time to reflect other meanings. Like the word Bordello, in Dante's books it means noisy , the same as it is meant in venetian. because he borrowed it from Venetian. But in italian, Bordello means a brothel...........italians completely changed the original Dante meaning. They could have seen an 11th century meaning of a Borgo Ruga in veneto and saw a wide area of houses and shops and then the Italians changed it and said it was a wide street ......Italian vocambulary in very small compared to the regional languages. It does not even include all the latin letters.


The italian language of italian is just an evolution of latin->vulgar latin->fiorentin.
And the language of nobility was the french or fiorentino.....and not "latin".
The french languange and fiorentino language was the language of "high class" (alias nobility), the nobles probably did not even know what was the latin  :Confused: .
The Italian is Italian, don't is 100% latin.
In Italian you can find word arab (like sciroppo->syrop in english),french or german.
But the Italian of today is in evolution.
Ex. Before people use the word "Tette" (for indicate the tits) and now "ziza" (take from sicilian dialect) or "vacca" and now "mucca".
The language is in continue evolution.

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## Marko94

> Mix, yes, young mix.
> 
> Albanian is young language.
> 
> What some Albanians propagate that Albanian derives from the ancient Balkan languages ​​is construct an unrelated meanings, pseudoscience, not even it that let's be realistic.


I don't know albanian language and i can't speak about it with a sure, but if the majority of words is latin probably the linguists will add to the latin group.

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## Bardhyl

> I don't know albanian language and i can't speak about it with a sure, but if the majority of words is latin probably the linguists will add to the latin group.


I have to disagree, sure the language has latin influence, but the language itself is a seperate branch and surely not in the latin group.

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## Sile

[QUOTE]


> The italian language of italian is just an evolution of latin->vulgar latin->fiorentin.
> And the language of nobility was the french or fiorentino.....and not "latin".
> The french languange and fiorentino language was the language of "high class" (alias nobility), the nobles probably did not even know what was the latin .


Italian is not florentine, the florentines cannot even pronounce the letter c properly. The Tuscan areas which comes closest to Italian is south Tuscany Siena area. Lucca and Pisa speak lucchese dialect ( NW tuscany)




> The Italian is Italian, don't is 100% latin.


 Italian does not use all the latin alphabet so its not Latin




> But the Italian of today is in evolution.
> Ex. Before people use the word "Tette" (for indicate the tits) and now "ziza" (take from sicilian dialect) or "vacca" and now "mucca".
> The language is in continue evolution.


( COW) Vacca is provenzal dialect from the area of catalonia, southern France and northern Italy.............it is still spoke in those areas today as well as Bovin is also in alpine Veneto
Mucca is a made up word by dante , its in the italian vocabulary, but its never used in the north, same with
(APPLE) mela in Italian and fabricated by Dante....POMO in north italy and shared by the french POM

Anyway to conclude, the albanian loan words from Italy are all sicilian, calabrese or apulian...maybe even a bit of Neapolitan.......but they all seem to come from when Albania was under Mussolini

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## Marko94

> I have to disagree, sure the language has latin influence, but the language itself is a seperate branch and surely not in the latin group.


But in fact is exat, albanian language don't derive from latin, but caused by latin empire they have large footprint of latin culture and this is impossible to deny evidence.

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## Marko94

> Italian is not florentine, the florentines cannot even pronounce the letter c properly. The Tuscan areas which comes closest to Italian is south Tuscany Siena area. Lucca and Pisa speak lucchese dialect ( NW tuscany)


The fiorentin dialect is consider a set of dialects, and after the union of Italy the dialect was the official language.
The fiorenti is a big component.



> ( COW) Vacca is provenzal dialect from the area of catalonia, southern France and northern Italy.............it is still spoke in those areas today as well as Bovin is also in alpine Veneto
> Mucca is a made up word by dante , its in the italian vocabulary, but its never used in the north, same with
> (APPLE) mela in Italian and fabricated by Dante....POMO in north italy and shared by the french POM


Ok, i think you have understand what i wanted to say about words like mucca or ziza.






> Anyway to conclude, the albanian loan words from Italy are all sicilian, calabrese or apulian...maybe even a bit of Neapolitan.......but they all seem to come from when Albania was under Mussolini


Take from dialect of south? If you can confirmed that i acept that theory, but is very wrong.
The albanian languange don't is a copy of italian.....if the word latin are take from italian language surely they would speak half Italian (since the majority of the Latin words is in the Albanian language), but it is not.
Is impossible change the majority of languange in latin culture, the Mussolini's rule there was only a few years, if they did not succeed the Turks (the domination of turk dured 500 years) as may have been the regime of Mussolini?

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## Sile

> The fiorentin dialect is consider a set of dialects, and after the union of Italy the dialect was the official language.
> The fiorenti is a big component.


Florentine was not used, Dante's Italian was used. the king want piemontese and the church wanted Latin.

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## Sile

> Take from dialect of south? If you can confirmed that i acept that theory, but is very wrong.
> The albanian languange don't is a copy of italian.....if the word latin are take from italian language surely they would speak half Italian (since the majority of the Latin words is in the Albanian language), but it is not.
> Is impossible change the majority of languange in latin culture, the Mussolini's rule there was only a few years, if they did not succeed the Turks (the domination of turk dured 500 years) as may have been the regime of Mussolini?


in skandenberg time, he was aligned with the kings/princes of Naples. they shared a lot of things including mercenaries.
Then the albanian stradioti was with the venetian, naples and french. But venetians did not speak italian then, it would be latin to the stradioti. All high ranking venetians spoke latin

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## Sile

here in italian for you , it even has maps where the population speak their regional language over italian

it states tuscan with Sicilian influence is the language of Italy

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingue_parlate_in_Italia

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## ukaj

[QUOTE=Marko94;423116]But in fact is exat, albanian language don't derive from latin, but caused by latin empire they have large footprint of latin culture and this is impossible to deny evidence.[/QUOTe,Marko you are right, north albania has very very old latin,So did the southern albanian until they starting adopting the greek alphabet,,all albanians language once used latin,Still the arbanties of greece use some latin from the old times,,but mainly gheg albanians use latin,But hey theold people SUCH AS DACIANS,THRACIANS AN ILLYRIANS USED IT,,,

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