# Humanities & Anthropology > History & Civilisations >  Who are the Dardanians of Europe and Troy? ( VIDEO )

## Johane Derite

Very interesting, had a lot of stuff I never knew about before in this video.

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## markod

Let me guess, they were Albanians?

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## Yetos

bzzzzzzzzzz

wrong answer,
Troyans were Illyrians

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## Ygorcs

That's so interesting considering how I myself was very harshly scolded by certain members here only a few weeks ago for basically positing that I don't think it's _as of yet_ implausible (and therefore this should be further investigated) that the specific Illyrian dialect (not the people who spoke it necessarily, since languages can diffuse with minor genetic flow) that would give rise to modern Albanian (or at least influenced its dialectal development a lot) could _hypothetically_ have originated roughly in the region between Dardania, southern Moesia Superior and northern Paeonia, in and around modern Kosovo, where there are evidences of "Albanoid" changes in placenames and Albanian-like etymology for toponyms. People thought I was somehow "stealing the land from the Albanians", saying complete nonsense or whatever. But then this apparently "politically acceptable" video comes and claims precisely that Albanians derive from Dardanians, that the "core" Dardanians came originally from precisely that region near Naisssus/Nish, and that by the time of Bardylis extended their political/cultural dominance over as deep south as Epirus. 

I fail to see what's the big difference, perhaps except for the fact the video's hypothesis would've taken place some centuries earlier than I thought. Or maybe, who knows, people really think that a completely uniform dialect was spoken in lands 400-450km apart from each other for many centuries without ever diverging into different versions of the proto-language, so that apparently discussing the origins of a specific modern language in an ancient dialect continuum is totally useless.

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## Johane Derite

> That's so interesting considering how I myself was very harshly scolded by certain members here only a few weeks ago for basically positing that I don't think it's _as of yet_ implausible (and therefore this should be further investigated) that the specific Illyrian dialect (not the people who spoke it necessarily, since languages can diffuse with minor genetic flow) that would give rise to modern Albanian (or at least influenced its dialectal development a lot) could _hypothetically_ have originated roughly in the region between Dardania, southern Moesia Superior and northern Paeonia, in and around modern Kosovo, where there are evidences of "Albanoid" changes in placenames and Albanian-like etymology for toponyms. People thought I was somehow "stealing the land from the Albanians", saying complete nonsense or whatever. But then this apparently "politically acceptable" video comes and claims precisely that Albanians derive from Dardanians, that the "core" Dardanians came originally from precisely that region near Naisssus/Nish, and that by the time of Bardylis extended their political/cultural dominance over as deep south as Epirus. 
> 
> I fail to see what's the big difference, perhaps except for the fact the video's hypothesis would've taken place some centuries earlier than I thought. Or maybe, who knows, people really think that a completely uniform dialect was spoken in lands 400-450km apart from each other for many centuries without ever diverging into different versions of the proto-language, so that apparently discussing the origins of a specific modern language in an ancient dialect continuum is totally useless.


The issue, was with claiming a medieval entry of Albanian into the more southern territories, which again, doesn't make sense when we consider the 7th century bc laconian folk vocabulary having albanian word loans. 

Lazaridis said Albanian seems to have translocated southwards in medieval times like vlach and slav languages. 

This was the crux of my disagreement, which I still stand by. Dardania *AND* Epirus had Albanian speakers, toponyms like Dimallum (related to Albanian "Mal" (mountain) and stuff like that has convinced me of that. This inclusion of Epirus is a big difference for me, if its not for you i wont hold it against you, but i will disagree and ask for your evidence against it.

My objections to Matzinger were based on his entire argument being built around negative evidence i.e. lack of toponym continuity is his main argument, despite being very weak argument his way around since we know how turbulent balkan history is, whereas the presence of even one toponym having continuity is on the obverse a much stronger argument since its possible to have albanian speakers not in power (i.e. kosovo, serbian was official language, official maps using serbophone toponyms, etc) while living there, whereas having one toponym show continuity necessitates Albanian speakers there.

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## Johane Derite

for example, a screenshot from the vid:




Since we don't know of an Albanian empire, the only way its feasible that this many disparate far off toponyms have albanian phonological
continous development is if there were also albanian speakers at least in minority in between them. So while many toponyms don't have continuity as the albanian control over them was disrupted enough times by ottomans, slavs, etc, there are enough to say that there were albanians in the south before the medival migrations

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## Sile

> for example, a screenshot from the vid:
> 
> Since we don't know of an Albanian empire, the only way its feasible that this many disparate far off toponyms have albanian phonological
> continous development is if there were also albanian speakers at least in minority in between them. So while many toponyms don't have continuity as the albanian control over them was disrupted enough times by ottomans, slavs, etc, there are enough to say that there were albanians in the south before the medival migrations


*I have been telling these albanians for 2 years , that your ancient balkan roots are dardanian* ............but you guys kept argueing about your nations propoganda that your where brainwashed in that your illyrian 
I also said that ancient historians state epirotes are illyrians and that is the confusing aspect on why you think differntly ...........greeks in the ancient times despised of Epirotes and now want to ensure that they are Greek..........
I also said Illyrians began in the eastern alps in the bronze-age and that is why we have halstatt culture as a celtic-illyrian mix

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## Leutrim

Another great video about Trojan War and Dardanians

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## Milan.M

So Dardanians (Albanians) were Trojans and in turn mythical founders of ancient Rome?

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## Milan.M

How they explain the chronology of the few ancient Greek borrowings at which time were borrowed?
From what i have read can not be established the time when were borrowed.
Would like to see linguist explanation.Thanks

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## Johane Derite

> How they explain the chronology of the few ancient Greek borrowings at which time were borrowed?
> From what i have read can not be established the time when were borrowed.
> Would like to see linguist explanation.Thanks


Krzyztof Witzcak found Albanian words in Alcmans poetry. Since Alcman lived around 7th century BC, and his poetry was using lots of Laconian folk vocabulary, this means a 
west greek doric contact zone between albanian and greek is likely where they would have picked it up. Epirus is the most suitable candidate.

Alcman (_7th century BC) was an Ancient Greek choral lyric poet from Sparta_

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## Yetos

Time to learn little more history.

Battle of Eri-*​*gonoi 




only Bardylis does not mean 'white star'
but something else
explained well if Illyrian homeland was Noricum.

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## Leutrim

> *I have been telling these albanians for 2 years , that your ancient balkan roots are dardanian* ............but you guys kept argueing about your nations propoganda that your where brainwashed in that your illyrian 
> I also said that ancient historians state epirotes are illyrians and that is the confusing aspect on why you think differntly ...........greeks in the ancient times despised of Epirotes and now want to ensure that they are Greek..........
> I also said Illyrians began in the eastern alps in the bronze-age and that is why we have halstatt culture as a celtic-illyrian mix


Well, according to Greek mythology, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.

Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes

*Sons*

Encheleus of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus of the Autariates
*Dardanus of the Dardani*
Maedus
Taulas of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus of the Perrhaebi

*Daughters*

Partho of the Partheni
Daortho of Daors
Dassaro of the Dassaretae

*Grandsons*

Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians

*GreatGrandsons*

Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci

So, where is the difference between *Illyrians* and *Dardanians* according to you ?

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## Ygorcs

> Well, according to Greek mythology, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.
> 
> Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes
> 
> *Sons*
> 
> Encheleus of the Enchelaeae
> Autarieus of the Autariates
> *Dardanus of the Dardani*
> ...


I think that, as already seemed likely from a "linguistic and historic common sense" point of view, if the myths have a grain of truth then it could be established that "Illyrians" did not form a homogeneous ethnicity and language community, they were rather more like "the Latins" or "the Slavs" nowadays, an umbrella-term for several different populations that speak languages that are perceived as much more related between themselves than to other neighboring peoples' languages. People did not manage to expand so much from Croatia to Epirus and elsewhere and still retain the homogeneity of their language preventing any linguistic divergence, especially in the Antiquity without modern means of transport and communication, let alone a political centralization and strong state institutions. That could only happen if we assumed that Illyrians were _very_ recently settled in the Balkans by the time the region was conquered by the Romans... but that doesn't seem likely at all.

My main quibble with Johane Derite's assumption that as early as the 7th century B.C. Epirus was already "Albanian-speaking", but Dardania was also probably "Albanian-speaking" according to him, is exactly that I find it highly unlikely that such a far-reaching language would've remained that homogeneous by the time of the Roman Empire. Granted, some distinctively "Albanoid" sound rules (phontic changes) may have spread like fire through a large area, as areal features may encompass even different language families, but that is totally different from stating that the language was exactly the same in all that region from the northernmost to the southernmost point, and that the Modrn Albanian dialects derive seamlessly from _all_ of that speech community from Dardania to Epirus indistinctly. For instance, we know that Greek was spoken in a much wider area, but Modern Greek _in fact_ does not come from all those dialects, it's clearly a derivation of _koiné_ Byzantine Greek which in turn came from Attic Greek. The other ancient dialects died out, they either shifted to or re-converged significantly to Koiné Greek, except maybe for Tsakonian, which may come from Doric Greek. A similar thing must've happened in the Albanian-speaking territory, otherwise after _more_ than 2700 years you'd certainly expect an even much wider linguistic diversity, more than in the Germanic languages.

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## Ygorcs

> The issue, was with claiming a medieval entry of Albanian into the more southern territories, which again, doesn't make sense when we consider the 7th century bc laconian folk vocabulary having albanian word loans. 
> 
> Lazaridis said Albanian seems to have translocated southwards in medieval times like vlach and slav languages. 
> 
> This was the crux of my disagreement, which I still stand by. Dardania *AND* Epirus had Albanian speakers, toponyms like Dimallum (related to Albanian "Mal" (mountain) and stuff like that has convinced me of that. This inclusion of Epirus is a big difference for me, if its not for you i wont hold it against you, but i will disagree and ask for your evidence against it.
> 
> My objections to Matzinger were based on his entire argument being built around negative evidence i.e. lack of toponym continuity is his main argument, despite being very weak argument his way around since we know how turbulent balkan history is, whereas the presence of even one toponym having continuity is on the obverse a much stronger argument since its possible to have albanian speakers not in power (i.e. kosovo, serbian was official language, official maps using serbophone toponyms, etc) while living there, whereas having one toponym show continuity necessitates Albanian speakers there.


But that was never my claim. I was thinking more of the Roman eraand of the root of the proto-language, not the Illyrian/Albanoid speakers as a whole. 

I gather that by "Albanian loanwords" what can really be said is that, if Albanian is indeed Illyrian, then some Illyrian dialect/language was spoken as south as Epirus and as north as Dardania (and of course even more to its northwest). But I'm not as sure as you that that meant the _direct_ ancestor of Modern Albanian dialects was spoken indistinctly in both Dardania and Epirus as early as the 7th century B.C, somehow preventing further linguistic divergence for some 2600 years in the absence of any common strong state that could've forced a relative homogeneization of the language (but even in that case that would certainly have meant the imposition of one specific dialect of that linguistic area over the other dialects, shifting to a common language based on one among many dialects). 

In my opinion, the present state of the Albanian language points out to a split from Proto-Albanian (the last common ancestor of all modern dialects) not as early as the Classical Antiquity, but in the Late Antiquity, roughly the Late Roman Empire. That would've necessitated many centuries since the 7th century B.C. (and we can't even assume that the Illyrian language was that recent in Dardania and Epirus that it wouldn't have started to split already by then). Now, of course part of the original Albanoid-speaking community would've become Romanized, and others would've moved away from the Romanization to others more "untainted" lands, so I presume that must've had linguistic implications, and one or a close set of similar dialects must've prevailed over the others. What I find really hard, from basic common sense, is that the modern language derives seamlessly from a language spoken homogeneously and indistinctly from Dardania to Epirus (or even elsewhere) as early as ~600 B.C., when you yourself pointed out to me that some linguists date the start of the split of modern Albanian dialects to 300 A.D.

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## Sile

> Time to learn little more history.
> Battle of Eri-*​*gonoi 
> 
> 
> only Bardylis does not mean 'white star'
> but something else
> explained well if Illyrian homeland was Noricum.


this is the first list ( A to E ) of Illyrian names in noricum ( I have other lists as well )

.
Where did you see Bardylis ?

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## Milan.M

About the name Bardylis,don't know exactly when Albanian switched PIE ǵ- to dh,but in proto-Albanian would have sounded more like "bardza" not "bardhe" from bʰrh₁ǵ- compare English "bright".So i think that is another thing what should be explained by linguist when comparing ancient names to modern languages.

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## Ownstyler

> About the name Bardylis,don't know exactly when Albanian switched PIE ǵ- to dh,but in proto-Albanian would have sounded more like "bardza" not "bardhe" from bʰrh₁ǵ- compare English "bright".So i think that is another thing what should be explained by linguist when comparing ancient names to modern languages.


I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?

For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
B - *B*o*b*
A is similar to - "pl*u*ck" or "*u*p" but more similar to Boston accent - "f*a*ther"
R - c*r*azy, *R*on
DH is like the first sound of "*th*e" or "*th*ere"

Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!

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## Milan.M

> I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?
> 
> For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
> B - *B*o*b*
> A is similar to - "pl*u*ck" or "*u*p" but more similar to Boston accent - "f*a*ther"
> R - c*r*azy, *R*on
> DH is like the first sound of "*th*e" or "*th*ere"
> 
> Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
> And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!


For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".

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## Johane Derite

> I'm trying to understand what you wrote. Can you provide some more info that is easy to understand for people who can't read those symbols?
> 
> For example, today Bardhe is pronounced B-A-R-DH (E is almost silent)
> B - *B*o*b*
> A is similar to - "pl*u*ck" or "*u*p" but more similar to Boston accent - "f*a*ther"
> R - c*r*azy, *R*on
> DH is like the first sound of "*th*e" or "*th*ere"
> 
> Could you explain in a similar way how you think BARDH was pronounced in proto-Albanian?
> And could you provide some evidence for that opinion? Thank you!


Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree. 

At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:

"Bardus"
"Skenobardus"
"Bardibalus" 

We also have the messapic examples:

"Barzides"
"Barzidihi"

Bardhok was a common folk name before the Albanian state formed whereas it is more rare now. Bardh is still a very common name though

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## Johane Derite

> For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
> In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
> From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".


It all depends in the chronology. Its obvious these "Bard-" names in illyrian and messapian are related. There is also the messapic city "bardulos" which linguists belive means "grey". Obviously a cognate.

Since we have literal documented use of this word, the actual source should take primacy, and not the speculated transitional phoneme which is the opinion of a linguist or two. 

Its just all against occams razor

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## Gash

> Let me guess, they were Albanians?


The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.

Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians. 

Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.

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## markod

> The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.
> 
> Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians. 
> 
> Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.


I disagree, but I wasn't thinking about those Dardanians when I made that comment.

The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.

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## Ownstyler

> For example Albanian dhëmb (tooth) is coming from PIE "gombhos" you can see the switch from "g" to "dh.From same root Lithuanian zambas,Greek gomphos etc
> In Lithunian you have Satemization *ǵ > *ź,while in Albanian ǵ > *dh
> From what i can find linguist think probably that PIE "g" become "dz" in proto-Albanian and then "dh".


Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".

For this to mean that the "Bar*dh*" of today was "Bar*g*" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".

Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.

Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?

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## Milan.M

> Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree. 
> 
> At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:
> 
> "Bardus"
> "Skenobardus"
> "Bardibalus" 
> 
> We also have the messapic examples:
> ...


It is Skenobarbus i think so,but some linguists already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
ΙΕ *bhardheh = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.

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## don_joe

Could there be any connection between "bardhë" and "albus", the root of the exonym "Albania"? There is some kind of mythical obsession with the white colour in that region, as far as I can google it but I don't see it anywhere mentioned. Beside personal names, there are also these examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Drin

Even qeleshe, the typical hat, must be also white if I read it correctly. Pardon my ignorance, I just noticed these details.

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## Johane Derite

> It is Skenobarbus i think so,but linguist already suggested see Enlglish "beard",proto germanic bardaz.
> ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)
> I wouldn't be surprise if some of the other names with "bard" have similar root.


Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related. 
What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- , 
* Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age. 
This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
Mjekër
From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).

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## Ygorcs

> Hes trying to argue that the proto form of bardhe wouldnt have been "bard" but i disagree. 
> 
> At 3:44 in the video we see some other Illyrian names:
> 
> "Bardus"
> "Skenobardus"
> "Bardibalus" 
> 
> We also have the messapic examples:
> ...


But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.

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## Ygorcs

> Doesnt make sense that a messapic city would be named bardulos if its beard related. 
> What does make sense is if albanian bardh etymology actually is related to the etymology of Beard *bhard-eh2 instead of the bʰrh₁ǵ- , 
> * Or even possible that *bhard-eh2 comes from albanian/illyr bardh, as in beards associated with white and old age. 
> This type of semantic slippage happens all the time.
> Especially since there is already an IE word for beard:
> Mjekër
> From Proto-Albanian *smekrā, from Proto-Indo-European *smoḱrus (compare Lithuanian smãkras (“chin”), Old Armenian մօրուք (mōrukʿ, “beard”), Sanskrit श्मश्रु (śmáśru, “beard”)).


That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.

I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.

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## Johane Derite

> That assumption can only be plausible if it is demonstrated that other words with an assumed *d in the PIE root also became *dh in Albanian in a similar position in the word. Phonemes change in a surprisingly consistent way that works for the vast majority of terms, that's why sound rules exist.
> 
> I will consider that after your * you're not seriously considering that an ancient PIE root found in many disparate IE subgroups, very far away from Illyrian territories, came from the much, much later Proto-Albanian/Illyrian term. That would be seeing the etymology totally upside down.


He mentioned these:

_ΙΕ *bhardh-eh2 = (English beard, Slavic *brada, Lithuanian barzdà,Latin barba)

_The "Illyrian" idiom is a central european idiom that had germanic on its north-west, italic/celtic on its southwest, and the balto-slavic on its east. All those languages would have been in a zone where that word could have drifted semantically at some early stage, either the "illyrian" drifting to mean white, or the others to mean beard. That was one idea, not something i'm gonna bet my retirement on.

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## Milan.M

> Thank you. I don't know a lot about etymology, but I see you are saying that PIE "g" became "dh".
> 
> For this to mean that the "Bar*dh*" of today was "Bar*g*" at 400 BC, two scenarios have to be excluded. First, assuming your "g">"dh" argument is true, it might be that the Dardanians had already been through that process. Keep in mind that Bardylis lived around 1500-1700 years before documented modern Albanian "dh" and around 3000 years after the possible PIE "g".
> 
> Second, it could be that some "dh" came from "g" but some other "dh" came from "d" or something else. So it has to be that all modern "dh" came from "g" and nothing else.
> 
> Do you have any argument to exclude these two possibilities?


I actually meant to be either "bardz" in proto-Albanian as linguist suggest but don't know which time frame is considered proto-Albanian to them, or already "bardh" by that period,as i said we can only guess at which period this change happened.

There is some evidence of satemization in Thracian,g>z and k>s,so sound change from g to dh in Albanian would be possible at earlier date but i don't know when,was just asking for clues.Maybe some more expertized in linguistics or familiar with the language here can explain you better,i hope you understood what i meant.
And i don't think that all dh is coming from g in Albanian.

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## Johane Derite

> But if the PIE *g' indeed had become *d in Proto-Albanian then it would have merged with *d with other PIE origins and the subsequent sound changes pertaining to the /d/ phoneme would've become the same in all occurrences of ancient /d/. Did that happen, all the *d become *dh at least in the same relative positions in the syllable? Later speakers wouldn't consciously remind which *d came from *g' and which *d came from other older phonemes if they had indeed merged. Couldn't it have been just a different phoneme that was not represented truthfully by the Greek and Latin alphabets and a simple *d was used instead? Transliterations of foreign languages' words was rarely very faithful to the original phonology.


Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.

Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.







I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (*white*) and *not* germanic "beard".

I agree that the gomb = dhemb etymology is sound, and also agree with g evolving to dh in words like this. I can't say that i'm sure there can't exist exceptions in special words, 
but if the alb etymolgy comes from *bʰrh₁ǵ-* this is solid. The dz in between though is more speculative, but I still agree with it, but believe that dialectal variation is possible, and that chronology matters at which point the transition his supposed to have happened.


Ok, so:

*Firstly*, the Messapian city Bardulos (today Barletta), means "gray". Source:







*Secondly,* the Messapian name "Barzides, Barzidihi" according to Matzinger comes from *bʰrh₁ǵ-* (the same as Albanian's "bardh" (white) etymology). Source: Einfuhrung ins Messapich by Matzinger:





*Thirdly*, the discrepency in the Z and D could be, as you noted, due to the Bardylis being documented by greeks writing the phoneme wrong. The messapians having their own script would write it more correctly, or it could simply be a dialectal quirk, like Tosk and Gheg today, Shqip*n*i vs Shqipe*r*i (both mean Albania). 


I think its unlikely that both Barzidihi, and Bardulos in Messapia relate to white, and that Bardylis in Dardania not connect to it.

----------


## Ygorcs

> Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.
> 
> Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you that it looks more plausible to me that _Bardylis_ has something to do with similar _bard-_rooted words in the same broad region. It makes sense to me and the etymology is sound especially compared with other PIE roots and their correspondences in Albanian. In my opinion, the problem must be in imprecise transliteration to Greek, probably because there was dialectal variation. Hypothetically, just to give you an example, it could be that what in some regions was a fully fricative /dz/ was still more like a lightly palatalized /d/ (sort of how many French speakers pronounce their "di") opposed to the dental or fully alveolar /d/, and in the absence of similar phonemes in Ancient Greek that sound was rendered simply as /d/.

----------


## Sile

> Yes, i agree here. Each language lacks phonemes and so represents phonemes it can't say with replacement symbols that can confuse us. Greeks often pronounce "B's" as "P" or "mP" for example.
> Since literally all we have from Illyrian is through other languages, this is always to be kept in mind.
> 
> I think with the case of Bardylis, there are enough indications that can help us be pretty certain that it's related to Albanian "bardh" (*white*) and *not* germanic "beard".


If you think messapic is illyrian, then have you matched it with albanian words............
because I read Messapic has roots as an east balkan language instead of a west balkan language/script etc

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## Yetos

The name 'Bardylis'

the name is after a king of Dardania which Greeks consider them as Illyrian

how it is written
ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ (Βάρδυλις) 
Ι suggest notice the -is and the u

'*Βάρδυλις* δ' ο των Ιλλυριών βασιλεύς,'

so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard

SO 

*ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli* 

it is obvious the meaning in IE as also possible true Illyrian word if Illyrians came from Celto-Germanic Noricum
*offcourse has nothing to do with Albanian bard+yll = white star, shining star

ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ=BARDULIS=BARBA+ULI
*compare Greaco and Greculi.



part considering the termination bard=grey gris 
the Greek term is φαιος,
BUT
there is a word for colour Παρδαλος = mixed spoted
and a word for male cat Παρδος, 
but to these must find out why Albanian has B and Greek has P.
if close enough at the begining,
*or to find out if Messapian word Barbulo comes from grey hair/beard
Like Greek Κιτρινον comes from Kitron =citron*


So for now I believe I will stay on *ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ= BARD+ULIS = Barba+uli = BEARD+Uli

as for Barzidihi
in Greek is ΒΑΡΖΙΔΙΗι 
*it has clear υπογεγραμενη, the mark in koine put under the letter in some cases, like dative, the Last I

so the correct translation to Erasmian is BARZIDIE so possible in onomastic case, the simple form would be BARZIDIES.
*
VERY INTERESTING IS TO EXCLUDE S

*in that case we have *

(S) TABO+aos BARZ+IDIEι

Ι* think now we might have a clear view what the sign says*(the TABO+aos of BARZ+ides)
*It is obvious that sign is written* in* * DATIVUS POSSESSIVUS* *OR**(less)** DATIVUS INSTRUMENTI

**ΒΑΡΖ+ΙΔΙ-ΗΙ*

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## TaktikatEMalet

Edit: how to delete this post? Let the professionals continue the discussion

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## Ygorcs

> so what does BΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ means, BARD-ULI-S
> it is same with Latin ending- ULI compare Greco but Greculi
> Bard is clear northern form of Italian Barba notice barber means beard
> 
> SO 
> 
> *ΒΑΡΔΥΛΙΣ = BARDULI = SMALL BEARD, SHORT BEARD, or Barba+uli*


This does not make much sense because _barba_ seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root _*bhardheh2_ would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, _*farba_, not _*barba_ and far less _*barda_. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like _barba_ or _farba_, but not _barda_.

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## Yetos

> This does not make much sense because _barba_ seems to be a later Latin form, caused by phonetic assimilation (and maybe foreign influence of IE languages in which "beard" started with a /b/) - so it cannot be a North Italic form unless we assume, through utter conjecture, that the same sound change also happened in northern Italic languages. The PIE root _*bhardheh2_ would've given, according to Proto-Italic sound laws, _*farba_, not _*barba_ and far less _*barda_. Therefore the only plausible Italic forms for "beard" are something like _barba_ or _farba_, but not _barda_.


oups

I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
I mean *Bard+uli+s*
is like the name *Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
or modern times
BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
*it is more possible that Bard- ment the same with Barba,
That is what I wanted to tell.

proto-Germanic **Bardaz*, Deutsch bart, Russian boroda, Dutch baard
*I think the possible meaning is clear,*

----------


## Johane Derite

> The Dardanoi were most likely Luwian judging by the single inscription and the material culture.


Actually that is extremely improbable, since the phrygians which were east of the Dardanians of Troy are accepted as obviously being from the balkans. As were the Mysians who were east of them. 

There is something strange about the Dardanian connection not even being mentioned by barely anyone and just swept aside. Meanwhile, here is what the actual evidence about trojans being luwians is:

"At the same time one must recognize that the discussion of the ethnicity of theTrojans rests on an even shakier foundation than the debate about the ethnic constitutionof the kingdom of Arzawa. In the latter case one can at least rely on a small but cohesivecorpus of local personal names and on a number of texts that presumably emanate fromthe area. 

In the instance of northwestern Anatolia our resources are limited to threepersonal names, three theonyms, and two toponyms attested in Bronze Age cuneiformsources. Going somewhat ahead, one can observe that *none of these eight elements is demonstrably Luvian or even Luvic*, and most of them defy linguistic identification. 

Therest of the information must be supplied from the Greek poetic account of the TrojanWar, whose final redaction probably postdates the historical events underlying thenarrative by about five centuries. Finally, the ongoing excavations of Bronze Age Troyhave failed to yield a *single monumental inscription*, and the epigraphic evidence at ourdisposal consists of *a sole Hieroglyphic Luvian seal* found in Troy, whose owner cannotbe identified with any known historical figure."

SOCIOLINGUISTICS OF THE LUVIAN LANGUAGEVOLUME 1 by ILYA S. YAKUBOVICH 


This guy is a Luwian expert btw..


So the evidence significantly points to Trojans *NOT* being Luwian. 8 linguistic elements are not even in the Luvic group. Also a Luwian seal is not a Luwian inscription, these are two different things.

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## Milan.M

> oups
> 
> I did not wanted to say that Barduli comes from Barba,
> I wanted to comapre it with modern speaking in Balkan,
> were barba means ungle, and Beard carrier,
> I mean *Bard+uli+s*
> is like the name *Barba-rossa (compare barda-rossa)
> or modern times
> BarbaGiannis (beard+John) etc etc
> ...


He was called "bradilo" by some dalmatian romanticist writers,which will mean something like "bearded man" but that could be more like rendering the name in their own language.

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## Lenab

> The Dardanians were most likely are our ancestors. Yes. Makes as much sense if not even more as the Bessi theory proposed by Schramm. But people will push whatever suits their agenda.
> 
> Dardanians were probably a Thracian Ilyrian hybrid but Strabo puts them as Ilyrians. They were neighors of the Thracian Bessi and Ancient Macedonians. 
> 
> Probably where the word 'Bes' in Albanian stems from. A common origin.


No Thracians were Serbs and Albanians came to Macedonia much later the only thing you have a connection to is Illyrians and that's being close to their ancient location if you want to call that a genetic match or close to a genetic match besides that's not every single Albanian

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## Lenab

> I disagree, but I wasn't thinking about those Dardanians when I made that comment.
> 
> The _Dardanoi were most likely Luwian_ judging by the single inscription and the material culture.


Yes this and at least the culture was similar

----------


## Sile

> Actually that is extremely improbable, since the phrygians which were east of the Dardanians of Troy are accepted as obviously being from the balkans. As were the Mysians who were east of them. 
> There is something strange about the Dardanian connection not even being mentioned by barely anyone and just swept aside. Meanwhile, here is what the actual evidence about trojans being luwians is:
> "At the same time one must recognize that the discussion of the ethnicity of theTrojans rests on an even shakier foundation than the debate about the ethnic constitutionof the kingdom of Arzawa. In the latter case one can at least rely on a small but cohesivecorpus of local personal names and on a number of texts that presumably emanate fromthe area. 
> In the instance of northwestern Anatolia our resources are limited to threepersonal names, three theonyms, and two toponyms attested in Bronze Age cuneiformsources. Going somewhat ahead, one can observe that *none of these eight elements is demonstrably Luvian or even Luvic*, and most of them defy linguistic identification. 
> Therest of the information must be supplied from the Greek poetic account of the TrojanWar, whose final redaction probably postdates the historical events underlying thenarrative by about five centuries. Finally, the ongoing excavations of Bronze Age Troyhave failed to yield a *single monumental inscription*, and the epigraphic evidence at ourdisposal consists of *a sole Hieroglyphic Luvian seal* found in Troy, whose owner cannotbe identified with any known historical figure."
> SOCIOLINGUISTICS OF THE LUVIAN LANGUAGEVOLUME 1 by ILYA S. YAKUBOVICH 
> This guy is a Luwian expert btw..
> So the evidence significantly points to Trojans *NOT* being Luwian. 8 linguistic elements are not even in the Luvic group. Also a Luwian seal is not a Luwian inscription, these are two different things.


Phyrgians did not originate in anatolia, they went to anatolia from the balkans. they arrived there in the early iron age, I doubt that dardanians and Phygians where ever neighbours .
Phygians where involved in wars against the Lidians circa 500BC
i will check hittite paers to see if they noted the phygians in their time in Anatolia
.
i agree with you on the seal

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## Gash

We are dardanians maddaffakkas !!!!

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## Johane Derite

> Phyrgians did not originate in anatolia, they went to anatolia from the balkans. they arrived there in the early iron age, I doubt that dardanians and Phygians where ever neighbours .
> Phygians where involved in wars against the Lidians circa 500BC
> i will check hittite paers to see if they noted the phygians in their time in Anatolia
> .
> i agree with you on the seal



Thats what I said, phrygians went to anatolia from the balkans. Phrygians are mentioned as being right there alongisde the rest of them during the Trojan war, the same time as Dardanians and Mysians.

It seems weird to argue that Phrygians went to Anatolia but Dardanians didn't, despite all having their correlates in the Balkans.




And Phorcys and godlike Ascanius led the Phrygians from afar, from Ascania, and were eager to fight in the press of battle (Homer, the Iliad, 2.856 - ca. 700 BCE )


Ere now have I journeyed to the land of Phrygia, rich in vines, and there I saw in multitudes the Phrygian warriors, masters of glancing steeds, even the people of Otreus and godlike Mygdon, that were then encamped along the banks of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 3.181 - ca. 700 BCE )


Verily thou wilt lead me yet further on to one of the well-peopled cities of Phrygia or lovely Maeonia, if there too there be some one of mortal men who is dear to thee, seeing that now Menelaus hath conquered goodly Alexander, and is minded to lead hateful me to his home (Homer, the Iliad, 3.381 - ca. 700 BCE )

And towards Thymbre fell the lot of the Lycians and the lordly Mysians, and the Phrygians that fight from chariots and the Maeonians, lords of chariots (Homer, the Iliad, 10.412 - ca. 700 BCE )

And while he pondered thus there drew nigh to him Phoebus Apollo in the likeness of a young man and a strong, even of Asius, that was uncle to horse-taming Hector, and own brother to Hecabe, but son of Dymas, that dwelt in Phrygia by the streams of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 16.698 - ca. 700 BCE )

Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth (Homer, the Iliad, 18.270 - ca. 700 BCE )

'And of thee, old sire, we hear that of old thou wast blest; how of all that toward the sea Lesbos, the seat of Macar, encloseth, and *Phrygia in the upland, and the boundless Hellespont*, over all these folk, men say, thou, old sire, wast preeminent by reason of thy wealth and thy sons (Homer, the Iliad, 24.525 - ca. 700 BCE )

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## Sile

> Thats what I said, phrygians went to anatolia from the balkans. Phrygians are mentioned as being right there alongisde the rest of them during the Trojan war, the same time as Dardanians and Mysians.
> It seems weird to argue that Phrygians went to Anatolia but Dardanians didn't, despite all having their correlates in the Balkans.
> And Phorcys and godlike Ascanius led the Phrygians from afar, from Ascania, and were eager to fight in the press of battle (Homer, the Iliad, 2.856 - ca. 700 BCE )
> Ere now have I journeyed to the land of Phrygia, rich in vines, and there I saw in multitudes the Phrygian warriors, masters of glancing steeds, even the people of Otreus and godlike Mygdon, that were then encamped along the banks of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 3.181 - ca. 700 BCE )
> Verily thou wilt lead me yet further on to one of the well-peopled cities of Phrygia or lovely Maeonia, if there too there be some one of mortal men who is dear to thee, seeing that now Menelaus hath conquered goodly Alexander, and is minded to lead hateful me to his home (Homer, the Iliad, 3.381 - ca. 700 BCE )
> And towards Thymbre fell the lot of the Lycians and the lordly Mysians, and the Phrygians that fight from chariots and the Maeonians, lords of chariots (Homer, the Iliad, 10.412 - ca. 700 BCE )
> And while he pondered thus there drew nigh to him Phoebus Apollo in the likeness of a young man and a strong, even of Asius, that was uncle to horse-taming Hector, and own brother to Hecabe, but son of Dymas, that dwelt in Phrygia by the streams of Sangarius (Homer, the Iliad, 16.698 - ca. 700 BCE )
> Of old all mortal men were wont to tell of Priam's city, for its wealth of gold, its wealth of bronze; but now are its goodly treasures perished from its homes, and lo, possessions full many have been sold away to Phrygia and lovely Maeonia, since great Zeus waxed wroth (Homer, the Iliad, 18.270 - ca. 700 BCE )
> 'And of thee, old sire, we hear that of old thou wast blest; how of all that toward the sea Lesbos, the seat of Macar, encloseth, and *Phrygia in the upland, and the boundless Hellespont*, over all these folk, men say, thou, old sire, wast preeminent by reason of thy wealth and thy sons (Homer, the Iliad, 24.525 - ca. 700 BCE )


I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time

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## Archetype0ne

> I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
> How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
> I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time


Seek and you shall find

/phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-bronze-age.html

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## Sile

> I am saying that I need to see hittite texts at the time of the trojan war and see if Phygians or something like them exists
> How can dardanians speak Luwian if the Troas lands ( where troy and dardania where ) was not luwian in language?
> I am starting to think it was either a proto-thraco language or something completely different ............it could be proto-ionion Greek ........need to check what samothrace spoke at that time


There is no hittite texts about Phygians...
.
*According to the historian Herodotus and the geographer Strabo, Phrygians were a European nation, and were called as “Bhrygians” before they came to Anatolia. Phrygians are assumed to have arrived in Anatolia most probably passing through Macedonia – Thrace and the Straits in 1200s BC, to have set up temporary settlements in Thrace and in the south of Marmara in the early years, and later to have spread into the interiors of Anatolia. The time when Phrygians, which were in the form of little monarchies tried to form the first political unity in Anatolia was in 750s BC.*
.
according to the above, the Phygians moved to Anatolia *after* the trojan war and *after* the demise of the Hittites

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## Archetype0ne

Quoting myself from a PM: 
what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.

This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.

Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.

That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.

How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?

Based on the genetic and mythological evidence I have seen:

EV-13 and J2B were two populations which melted in western Anatolia to create proto-Albanians. J2B most likely were bull, and Baal worshiping Caucasians, pastoralist by sustenance with great knowledge of metallurgy and smithing. While EV-13 made its way through Crete, having previously nested among Palestine and Egypt, if not Ethiopia even earlier. E-V13, IMO, would have been farmers. The niche compatibility could have made for their coexistence in Western Anatolia. J2B however would have come to the Balkans in 2 ways: One through the Carpathian gap in Bassarabia having gone around the black sea, creating the proto-Thracians, and Gaets and proto Daco-Romanians as well as potentially the other Thracians and Illyrians. While the other branch would have gotten to Dardania through Ilium, Macedon, Vardar , Dardania. By the time they meet again around >700 BC they have common elements of culture, but they would not have had the same language... hence the Illyrian/Thracian divide.

According to Iliad this is plausible...
According to Argonautica this is also plausible... If Aenea could stop in Dardania(Kosovo) before stopping in the Berber region and finally in Etruria during that time period, who is to say proto-Albanians could not have done the same thing...

Both Aenea, and Hyllus were from asia minor, descendants of Heracles. The feud between Heracle and the dynasties of Argos imo forshadow the East and West divide that would follow in the coming ages under many avatars. In one of which avatars ancient Greek and proto-Albanian would have begun to differentiate, reflecting the aegean-asia minor divide. Furthermore the Dorians are considered by many a historian, as descendants of Heracles, throguh Hyllus, and finally Hyllis... which could easily be the progenitor of the people proto-greeks from Argos would have called firstly Dorians, and lastly Illyrian. Furthermore... Iliad is named after the City of Ilium. Oh did I mention "Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnese... They withdrew to Thesaly, where Aegimus, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons voluntarily submitted to Hyllus" Meaning the same people initially knows as the Dorians, were descendants of Heracles from Asia Minor. These Dorians would later be ruled, by another son of Heracles recently moved from Asia minor named Hyllus.... Meaning there is a gene flow as well as cultural continuity, yet without a cohesive self identification as "Illyrians".

If indeed the proto-Albanian language was in Troy 1300 BC we would find some evidence today. Thesaurus one of the largest dictionaries implies "thesaurus" is derived from ancient greek, of unknown origin. Yet in Albanian Thes - Bag, Ar - Gold. Thesar - Treasure. We would also find naming continuity between Troyan/Ilian-->Dorian-->Illyrian-->Albanian. For that we have Darda as a repeating root, and similar toponyms based on fruit Grape Rrush - Ragush - Ragusa, Peach - Pshka/Pjeshk - Rashka , Aegim - Dawn as personal name, Hylas, Hylus, Yllis variations Star as personal name. Agron as both King in Illyria 400BC and King of Lydia 1300BC. "*Agron (fl. c.1192 BC) was a legendary king of Lydia who is named by Herodotus as the first of the Lydian Heraclid dynasty. Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession." 
Furthermore even the name Tehuta, queen in Lydia,repeats with the Illyrians some 1000 years later as Teuta.  

-*/bibleplaces . com/ sardis /* Mountain with name Sardis in Asia minor... looks like a saw/sharp. Sar mountains Macedonia/Kosovo/Albania also look like a saw.... The endonym or toponym comes from protoIndEuropean for Sharp... similar in pronunciation and meaning to to Middle Age words such as Shpata/Spata/Sopata in Albanian, and Sparta in Classical Greece, with equivalents also in Latin. There is equivalent of the word in ancient Persian which I have sadly forgot.

I hope I have not made a fool of myself, yet constructive criticism is welcome.*

----------


## Yetos

SOME HERE MUST PUT THE TIMING,

1) *proto-BRYGIANS* EXISTED NORTH PROTO GREEKS
IN SHARD MOUNTAINS meaning diged land compare Greek Σκορδυλη Shard in Greek Skord 
2) *Brygians left the land pushed by Illyrians* to southern areas nearby Thracians and Makedonians
Edessa (water city in Brygian)
3) the same *time that Karanos* creates his kingdom in Pieria and Ematheia Brygians move Eastern and move to minor Asia to Phrygia
4) The *remaing Brygians* 'enter Makedonian Kingdom' as *ΜΥΓΔΟΝΕΣ* -MYGdonia (mugdones in sound)
5)The Gordium is the place where Alexander tried to take Phrygians with his side, cause by legend Makedonians and Brygians were considered allies,

So 
Proto-home of Brygians is what is today North Albania Sko*rd*a lake
the historical times they were pushed by Illyrians and primary their land is today parts of N Epirus, Makedonia and Fyrom (southern city is Edessa)
by Karanos times they already abandoned Epirus and Paionia and moved to what is named today Mygdonia and minor Asia.

Brygians were considered part/bone structure of Makedonian kingdom, and assimilated to it.
Alexander expected Phrygians to do so


*KARANOS founder of Makedonian Kingdom Found Brygians at Edessa.
so Brygians surely existed at 800 BC in Makedonia, 

GENERALLY IT IS CONSIDERED THAT BRYGIAN MOVE HAPPENED SAME TIME OR AFTER DORIAN DESCENT.
most possible with the 1rst Colonization or after it,

So there is no possibility that Brygians moved to minor Asia before 1200 BC
since belong to the non Mycenean, non Minoan, world of S balkans,
but next to Proto-Greek world

their moved is about 1200 -750 BC



On the other hand 
if we use Diakonov's historical theory
then Brygians never existed
but Only Phrygians

YET IF WE USE R. WOODARD work
Then Latin Brygian and Greek comes from the same family,
meaning
MAYBE PROTO-GREEK WERE MORE NORTH THAN GEORGIEV PLACE IT,
AND KEPT SOME OLDER SOUNDS, in North Dialects.
SO SOUTHERN GREEKS LIKE HERODOTOS RECOGN AS BRYGIAN*

----------


## Ygorcs

> Quoting myself from a PM: 
> what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.
> 
> This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.
> 
> Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.
> 
> That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.
> 
> How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?


Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.

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## Archetype0ne

Mr I don't source my points, give me sources.

Give me first text that mentions Pyrgians or Bryges or Bregas or any variant you like >500 bc north of Argos. If you are going to use Herodotus mentioning how he thinks Bryges are Thracian and come from the Balkans does not count. He mentions them ~800 years after they have already been in Anatolia, for 500 years even ruling first in the Heracle Dynasty the later in the Gyges dynasty in Lydian, Troad territory.

And also please for the love of god use sources. I am pretty skeptical to bull... on the net.

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## Yetos

Guys we have to choose

brygians left Before illyrians?

2) brygians moved before or After 1rst Greek colonization?

3)If Phrygians are the people that Diakonov Describes,
Then there is no Connectivity among Balkans and minor Asia
meaning that Phrygians in that case are older than Brygians

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## Archetype0ne

> Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.


Fair point, either way all I am looking for is the truth, I got no agenda behind my posts...

If someone can mention when were the Dardans first mentioned in the Balkans?
When were they first mentioned to be in the Troad?

"e Royal House of Troy was also divided into two branches, that of the Dardanoi, and that of the Trojans (their city being called Troy, or sometimes Ilion/Ilium). The House of the Dardanoi (its members being the _Dardanids, Gr: Δαρδανίδαι; Lt: Dardanidae) was older than the House of Troy, but Troy later became more powerful"_


Everyone here is so put off by Serb propaganda about "From Anatolia" they seem to be put off by the idea completely even if its >3000 years ago. You would have me believe that Illyrians at their peak and mentioned around 7-4 century BC were the ancestral lands to people who had the height of their kingdoms 3-4k years ago... I really do not know what to say. Hisarlik means place of Castles, you want me to believe what the Seljuks named Hisarlik, that has Troy under Troy in archeology going far back from anything found even in Argos Greece, or Dardania or Modern Albania were a result of what direction of migration? 

I am after the truth... not we were Autochtonous BS .... The only Autochtones in EU were Neanderthals... and what happened to them... I guess the truth will come out in time.

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## Ygorcs

> There is no hittite texts about Phygians...
> .
> *According to the historian Herodotus and the geographer Strabo, Phrygians were a European nation, and were called as “Bhrygians” before they came to Anatolia. Phrygians are assumed to have arrived in Anatolia most probably passing through Macedonia – Thrace and the Straits in 1200s BC, to have set up temporary settlements in Thrace and in the south of Marmara in the early years, and later to have spread into the interiors of Anatolia. The time when Phrygians, which were in the form of little monarchies tried to form the first political unity in Anatolia was in 750s BC.*
> .
> according to the above, the Phygians moved to Anatolia *after* the trojan war and *after* the demise of the Hittites


Something that is really intriguing is that the Trojan War (the latest phase of Troy which seems to have been destroyed by fire) can be estimated to have happened around 1180 B.C. And the end of the Bronze Age, possibly in the 1300-1200 B.C., is exactly the period when arguably Balkanic peoples like Phrygians, Armenians and maybe a few others (Greeks included, who were clearly invaders in Troy) started to arrive in Anatolia.

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## Archetype0ne

> Guys we have to choose
> 
> brygians left Before illyrians?
> 
> 2) brygians moved before or After 1rst Greek colonization?
> 
> 3)If Phrygians are the people that Diakonov Describes,
> Then there is no Connectivity among Balkans and minor Asia
> meaning that Phrygians in that case are older than Brygians



You see what I mean? Thanks for the common sense... I'm not crazy after all.

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## Archetype0ne

> Something that is really intriguing is that the Trojan War (the latest phase of Troy which seems to have been destroyed by fire) can be estimated to have happened around 1180 B.C. And the end of the Bronze Age, possibly in the 1300-1200 B.C., is exactly the period when arguably Balkanic peoples like Phrygians, Armenians and maybe a few others (Greeks included, who were clearly invaders in Troy) started to arrive in Anatolia.


Check this out... these people after the sack of Troy might have continued all the way to Palestine and Egypt in what Biblically is described as the Sea Peoples. https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html

I have a feeling we will learn a lot more about Albanian and Proto Albanian and Proto Greek cultures the moment we descipher Linear B.

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## Sile

> Mr I don't source my points, give me sources.
> 
> Give me first text that mentions Pyrgians or Bryges or Bregas or any variant you like >500 bc north of Argos. If you are going to use Herodotus mentioning how he thinks Bryges are Thracian and come from the Balkans does not count. He mentions them ~800 years after they have already been in Anatolia, for 500 years even ruling first in the Heracle Dynasty the later in the Gyges dynasty in Lydian, Troad territory.
> 
> And also please for the love of god use sources. I am pretty skeptical to bull... on the net.


if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below

a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes

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## Archetype0ne

> if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below
> 
> a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
> but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
> The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
> I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
> even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes


Apologies again for quoting myself from another thread, yes it was me who sent you the message. And I fully agree with you. I do believe part of the J2B2 took another way into the balkans, around the black sea, through the carpatians into Dacia and Gaeta. I will quote myself for convenience.

"I suspect J2B2 was present ~>3300 years ago among proto-Thracian, proto-Illyrian/Pelasgian, proto-Dacian and Gaet populations... stemming from a common origin in the caucasus >4k years ago, and having taken two separate paths to the balkans, leading to the divide among Thracian/Dacian/Illyrian populations when they arriven the balaksn destination. One path of J2B2 would have taken would be around the black sea, through the Bassarabian gap in the Carpathian mountains as shephers, while the other path would have been through western Anatolia into Macedon - Vardar - Dardania. Hence the similarties, as well as the many differences from modern Romanian and Albanian, as well as the obvious pre-Slavic substratum in slavic languages today in the Balkans.

In Albanian Bregas, means costal people... Yet Breg, or Berg means Mountain and Castel in the respective proto-slavic and proto-germanic languages respectively. Bryges were indeed living in the coast, while Dardans were landlocked in Kosovo.

*"Bryges or Briges (Greek: Βρύγοι or Βρίγες) is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phyrigans, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia"

Thracian tribes, Pelasgian Tribes, were among the allies of the Troyans, among whom the Dardans were one of the two leading dynasties ~3300 years ago according to homer. Among the people that fought in the Trojan War these groups probably had an alliance based on common culture or shared values/ways of life, or even origin. If the hypothesis I gave above is to be taken seriously, J2B2 segment of Albanian population were similar in Blood and in language to the Thracians as well as Dacians and Gaets, so I would suspect J2B2 to be present among the pastoral communities in the region and possibly all the way to Ukraine, as well as Anatolia, with a common ancestor in Caucasus, yet differentiated do to the path they took into the Balkans to the point where Thracian and Illyrian had to be classified as different languages."*

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## Sile

> Quoting myself from a PM: 
> what is the chance that the modern Albanian population, or at least the Gheg majority, find their ancient relatives, and populace genesis in Western Anatolia >1300BC.
> This would explain grammar and language similarities with ancient Greek, Armenian by geographical location.
> Also, the Dardans are mentioned in the Iliad as one of the two ruling dynasties in Troy. They fought on the side of "Pelasgian", Thracian, and Moesian tribes in what could be considered the first "World War", even Aetheopians participated.
> That geographic region between Scumander, Dardaneles, and mount Ida is precisely where a huge technological leap took place ~3000 years ago, with the bronze age separation of Gold from Silver, creating the first reliable currency, and thus setting in motion the Troyan War... I highly doubt such an "international" war for the time would take place as a siege for 10Years between countless belligerents simply for a woman, there must have been underlying conflict of interest.
> How wrong am I in pursuing this path of research? Is it a blind path?
> Based on the genetic and mythological evidence I have seen:
> EV-13 and J2B were two populations which melted in western Anatolia to create proto-Albanians. J2B most likely were bull, and Baal worshiping Caucasians, pastoralist by sustenance with great knowledge of metallurgy and smithing. While EV-13 made its way through Crete, having previously nested among Palestine and Egypt, if not Ethiopia even earlier. E-V13, IMO, would have been farmers. The niche compatibility could have made for their coexistence in Western Anatolia. J2B however would have come to the Balkans in 2 ways: One through the Carpathian gap in Bassarabia having gone around the black sea, creating the proto-Thracians, and Gaets and proto Daco-Romanians as well as potentially the other Thracians and Illyrians. While the other branch would have gotten to Dardania through Ilium, Macedon, Vardar , Dardania. By the time they meet again around >700 BC they have common elements of culture, but they would not have had the same language... hence the Illyrian/Thracian divide.
> According to Iliad this is plausible...
> ...


There a 2 thoughts on the language in the troas ( troy ) , some say it is Luwian and some say it is not , Trojans neighbours along the coast looking at europe are...Mysians, then thracians, then Palaic ...........this ( palaic )being as some say a sub-branch of Luwian

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## Archetype0ne

> There a 2 thoughts on the language in the troas ( troy ) , some say it is Luwian and some say it is not , Trojans neighbours along the coast looking at europe are...Mysians, then thracians, then Palaic ...........this ( palaic )being as some say a sub-branch of Luwian


*"Mysia (UK /ˈmɪsiə/, US /ˈmɪʒə/ or /ˈmiːʒə/; Greek: Μυσία, Latin: Mysia, Turkish: Misya) was a region in the northwest of ancient Asia Minor[1] (Anatolia, Asian part of modern Turkey). It was located on the south coast of the Sea of Marmara. It was bounded by Bithynia on the east, Phrygia on the southeast, Lydia on the south, Aeolis on the southwest, Troad on the west and by the Propontis on the north. In ancient times it was inhabited by the ---- Mysians, Phrygians, Aeolian Greeks and other groups. ---" 

That quote implies at least 3 nationalities.... Phyrgians, Mysians, and Aeolian Greeks. Also here you can find cognates for Olympys as a mountain which might predate Olympus in Argos.

I suspect both proto-Alban and proto-Greek tribes took similar path into mainland Europe, around the same era. Although proto-Albanian imo sided in Asia minor through their J2 lineage, and Crete-->Asia Minor through their E-V13 Lineage, while the proto-Greeks in Argos, Aechea+ Morea.*

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## Sile

> Actually I think you may be seeing the evidences "upside down": even if it is true that Pre-Albanian speakers were Dardanians and were in Troy (Northwestern Anatolia) by 1300-1200 B.C., what the video posted in the beginning of this thread claims and I also think is much more likely is that they were newcomers from the Balkans, so the movement, if it happened, was probably Balkans > Anatolia, not the other way around. From the Late Bronze Age onwards, the Greeks, Phrygians, Mysians, Thracians and other peoples who were probably already established since long ago in the Balkans migrated to Western Anatolia. If the Dardanians were part of that process, they also came from Dardania or whatever was their early homeland in the Balkans (maybe a bit more to the south, as they seem to have had open access to the Aegean). Armenians themselves may have come from the Balkans, considering that in the Bronze Age their future territory was already inhabited by literate societies (Hurrians, Urartians, Anatolian IEs) and there is simply no Armenian-like inscription or name before the end of the Bronze Age there.


is not Hurrian, urartians ( from lake Selva to Lake Van ) associated with luwian and ...........hatti with Hittite ?
why could not the armenians be either a luwian and/or hurrian people either from modern armenia or Cilicia ( SE Turkey ) ?

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## LABERIA

> if you sent me a privy message...for some reason i cannot respond....so see below
> 
> a possibility...since the trojan war as a trade war for access to the black sea
> but as per 2017 paper , illyrian origin in black sea modern moldova lands...they arrived in central europe ( noricum, which is east austria ) circa 1600BC......they are part of the Halstatt culture with the celts.
> The Dardanians are anatolians, via origins in Samothrace.......so origins of illyrians and dardanians difer.............besides Greek historians even called Epirotes as illyrian, it was a greek term for the northern barbaric people.
> I am here to seek the truth and the truth is not what albanians where taught as propaganda by their government in the 1970's that they are Illyrians. I have been saying for over 2 years that albanian origin in Europe could only have come initially from the dardanians who also had ownership of the fertile lands called Moesia, lands that thracians and macedonians wanted as their own
> even all medieval and renaissanece italian literature called albanians epirotes....clearly between roman times or prior to the medieval Albanians ( dardanians ) formed some sort of union with epirotes



*1705-1715
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
Correspondence on the Albanian Language
**1774
Johann Thunmann:
On the History and Language
of the Albanians and Vlachs
*You think that even these two scholars of the XVIII century(among many prominent names) are victims of _the propaganda by Albanian government in the 1970's_?

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## Archetype0ne

So much for arguing the points instead of jumping all over the place with rhetorical BS.

I went out of my way to quote my problem for the Bryges moved from Balkans to Anatolia version, basing it on archaeology, as well as myth, and even questioning the 400BC Herodotus quote about the origin of people 800 Years prior to him. The Dardans in the Illiad are not even mentioned mainland... the Thracians, as well as the "Pellasgians" are... Come on the sources are plentiful lets not make this a battle of 19th century propaganda, be it French, German, Albanian or Greek. The truth can be found independently, following the facts, as long as they are consistent.

How some people, from my own ancestry believe Dardanians in Troy 1300BC have no connection to Dardanians in Kosovo 700BC REALLY AMUSES ME.

Same with the Phyrgian, Breagas, Brygas, whatever u want to call them for the costal proto-Albos.

I believe Gaets, and Ghegs derive from the same etnonym... deriving from Gyges... Founder of the second line of Heraclid dynasty that would rule for 5 generations in Lydia... after The Agron dynasty ruled for 22 generations. Gyges was supposedly a Shepard from Thrace... 

Shkurt e shqip Gega, Leka, Agron, Ylli, Agim... jan emra proto shqiptar. Aleksandri I Madh nuk ishte Aleksandri I pare.... Po i 3 ti vetem ne Maqedoni, e paramendo sa Aleksandra ka pas para ketij Aleksandri? A mendoni me te vertet se si fjal origjinon ne Ballkan? Se un e dyshoj. Po syte i mbaj hapur, se ne fund atyre ju besoj.

"Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus... They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons voluntarily submitted to Hyllus" 

Agim. Agron, Hyllus, Hylli, Ilium, Teuta. A L E K S A N D E R???... all the way in Asia minor 700+ years before any mention in the Balkans. Surely at least part of our modern Albanian Genes and Ethnoculture took this path...

Edit: Or I am wrong, and Bryges more than 3000 years ago were able from their pastoral economy to go from the Balkans to Lydia and become rulers there, taking down the most fortification civilization of the time xD and keepping their dynasties on the throne for 27 generations. Such madlads. I mean it only took a whole League of Peoples and 10 Years, and a sneaky Horse, and an archaic world war, to bring Troy down, but the Bryges had it EZPZ.

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## Johane Derite

TROY VII (*Balkanic*/Troia-culture about 1200 - 950 BC):

Troy VII phases VIIb1, VIIb2, and recebtly VIIb3 show continuity from what preceded them; for example, parts of the fortification walls remain in use. *Yet there are significant new cultural elemens in both the lower and the upper levels*. Handmade pottery suddenly re-appears after 1000 years of the potter's wheel. The lower parts of the walls are now faced with irregular, vertically-placed stone slabs.

In the building-phases (VIIb1-VIIb2) there are also changes in wall-building techniques, with the lower parts of the circuit-wall now being faced with irregular, vertically placed stone slabs (orthostats). How Troy VII1b perished (around the 1130 BC) is unclear. There are not clear evidence of destruction whether by earthquake or by human hands and probably the settlement was taken over by a related cultural group without serious disturbance. Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in *south-eastern Europe.* 

Similarly, a number of bronze axe heads found by Schliemann, although their context of discovery is not certain, have been attributed to Troy VIIb2 and have their best parallels in Late Bronze Age Hungary. Buckelkeramik has a parallels across the Hellespont it appears that its makers may have migrated into the *Troad from Thrace, to which in turn they may have moved from further west.* Troy VIIb2 was destroyed by fire. Conceivably the settlement was taken by force and put to the torch around 1100 BC.

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## Archetype0ne

> TROY VII (*Balkanic*/Troia-culture about 1200 - 950 BC):
> 
> Troy VII phases VIIb1, VIIb2, and recebtly VIIb3 show continuity from what preceded them; for example, parts of the fortification walls remain in use. *Yet there are significant new cultural elemens in both the lower and the upper levels*. Handmade pottery suddenly re-appears after 1000 years of the potter's wheel. The lower parts of the walls are now faced with irregular, vertically-placed stone slabs.
> 
> In the building-phases (VIIb1-VIIb2) there are also changes in wall-building techniques, with the lower parts of the circuit-wall now being faced with irregular, vertically placed stone slabs (orthostats). How Troy VII1b perished (around the 1130 BC) is unclear. There are not clear evidence of destruction whether by earthquake or by human hands and probably the settlement was taken over by a related cultural group without serious disturbance. Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in *south-eastern Europe.* 
> 
> Similarly, a number of bronze axe heads found by Schliemann, although their context of discovery is not certain, have been attributed to Troy VIIb2 and have their best parallels in Late Bronze Age Hungary. Buckelkeramik has a parallels across the Hellespont it appears that its makers may have migrated into the *Troad from Thrace, to which in turn they may have moved from further west.* Troy VIIb2 was destroyed by fire. Conceivably the settlement was taken by force and put to the torch around 1100 BC.


Rrofsh per argumentet.
Thank you for the arguments.

"Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in *south-eastern Europe. "* What is the nature of this relation? To me at this point it is obvious that there is a connection between Troy and Modern Albanians although what is confusing me is the direction of the relationship as well as the chronology.

If parallels are to be found in south-eastern Europe, what is the chronological arrow? East to west, or west to east.

Furthermore, I fear making deduction based on pottery, or axes, since the Troad at the time was one of the most important centers of trade. Yet that argument is interesting.

So my question is since we know places such as Apollonia were founded after the sack of Troy, do we have evidence of pre 1300 stone buildings in the Balkans, or SE Europe as you stated? If we did have these parallel stones at the base of the walls style of building anywhere near Dardania (Kosov) or Northner Albania, or Epirus preceding 1320-1280 we could imply something otherwise it raises more questions than anything.

Furthermore, how do we know there was a "change" of leadership circa 1300BC when there is no war signs such as fire or anything. From what Homer stated and later characters parroted Dardans in Troy were an older dynasty even than the Trojans, we are talking double digit generations.

Nevertheless, thanks for starting this thread and taking the time to argument your points.
Hopefully I am not being illogical or foolish with my arguments.

At the end of the day we might never know, or the relationship could be much more complicated than we anticipate, with East-West movements not limited to countable instances sourced in history. But rather interchangeably, after all there was no concept of Nation at the time, and what was the state was nothing more than extended family hierarchies.

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## Johane Derite

> Rrofsh per argumentet.
> Thank you for the arguments.
> 
> "Prominent amongst the handmade pottery is a striking dark-coloured ware decorated with ribs and knobs like horns, the so called knobbed ware or Buckelkeramik, for which analogies are to be found in *south-eastern Europe. "* What is the nature of this relation? To me at this point it is obvious that there is a connection between Troy and Modern Albanians although what is confusing me is the direction of the relationship as well as the chronology.
> 
> If parallels are to be found in south-eastern Europe, what is the chronological arrow? East to west, or west to east.
> 
> Furthermore, I fear making deduction based on pottery, or axes, since the Troad at the time was one of the most important centers of trade. Yet that argument is interesting.
> 
> ...


The migration you proposed for J2b and EV13 from anatolia into the balkans is not supported. They are found in the Balkans since bronze age.

The battle of kadesh mentions Dardanians in NW Anatolia in 1270 BC, so this is 70 years before the beginning of the "Balkanic Troy" archeological period (_1200 - 950 BC)_. 
So maybe they came a bit before this time.

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## Archetype0ne

"Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession" Strikingly similar to your calculation... Makes me reconsider my stance. Any additional readings you would recommend? 

Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that? In case we were in the Balkans then too, my question is how did we end up here and why do we have such poverty of archaeology and "scripture", "relatively speaking". If we were earlier in the Balkans than in Troy as the DNA trail suggests... Then were are our Troy I II III IV etc etc. I hope I am understood, what I mean. If the Dardans 3k Years ago were so able to lead a civilization as you mentioned "Balkan Troy" 1290-950, why after the fall of troy they did not repeat their building sprees and similar culture in the Balkans. 

My brain has no problem guessing a merchant city that invented coins, and city walls the boast of the world, falling, and refugia fleeing in the Balkans, and falling to the Dark Ages... where we have so little info.

Or these Bronze Age people that found out how to divide silver from gold, moving to Tirol and Dardania and Skupi and Stobi due to the gold and metal wealth there.


What my brain struggles with, is first of all a motive for a West to East move, and furthermore explaining the relative discrepancy between Dardans in Troy and Dardans in Dardania.

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## Johane Derite

> "Herodotus' computation suggests c.1192 BC for Agron's accession" Strikingly similar to your calculation... Makes me reconsider my stance. Any additional readings you would recommend? 
> 
> Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that? In case we were in the Balkans then too, my question is how did we end up here and why do we have such poverty of archaeology and "scripture", "relatively speaking". If we were earlier in the Balkans than in Troy as the DNA trail suggests... Then were are our Troy I II III IV etc etc. I hope I am understood, what I mean. If the Dardans 3k Years ago were so able to lead a civilization as you mentioned "Balkan Troy" 1290-950, why after the fall of troy they did not repeat their building sprees and similar culture in the Balkans. 
> 
> My brain has no problem guessing a merchant city that invented coins, and city walls the boast of the world, falling, and refugia fleeing in the Balkans, and falling to the Dark Ages... where we have so little info.
> 
> Or these Bronze Age people that found out how to divide silver from gold, moving to Tirol and Dardania and Skupi and Stobi due to the gold and metal wealth there.
> 
> 
> What my brain struggles with, is first of all a motive for a West to East move, and furthermore explaining the relative discrepancy between Dardans in Troy and Dardans in Dardania.


The 3 main haplos of Albanians, J2b2, EV13, and Z2103, would most likely have been around the central northern balkans 4-5K years ago.

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## Archetype0ne

> The 3 main haplos of Albanians, J2b2, EV13, and Z2103, would most likely have been around the central northern balkans 4-5K years ago.


Interesting. Thanks for dealing cooly with my ignorance, and not simply down-voting. 

Yeah the same blue path I was considering all along connecting Ilium through Macedon and Vardar to Dardania. I will have to get a hold of the book and read it...

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## Mals

> Where do you think our J2B2 and E-V13 ancestors were say 4-5k years ago? What about before that?


J2b-L283 likely moved from the Steppe or Caucasus towards the Balkans around 3600-4000 years ago. E1b-V13 probably started out either in Central Europe or somewhere in the Balkans almost 5000 years ago, then spread all around in Europe, most successfully in the Balkans. You can find some useful info on the ancestry of Albanians on gjenetika.com. Have you tested yet, or are you thinking of joining the Albanian DNA project?

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## Yetos

I THINK WE ARE STILL UNDER same trap


*AND WE DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT ITS BASE,*

BRYGIANS INHABIT NORTH OF PROTO-GREEK
BRYGIANS MOVE SOUTHERN DUE TO ILLYRIANS COMING FROM NORICUM

AEOLIANS MOVE EAST TO PELASGIAN ARGOS AND THN EAST TO AEOLIS
IONIAN MOVE SOUTH TO ATTICA AND COLONISE IONIA in ASIA

DORIANS COLONISE DORIS in minor ASIA
*
SO WHEN BRYGIANS MOVED TO ASIA?
*KARAMOS FOUNDER OF MAKEDONIAN KINGDOM FINDS THEM AT THEIR GLORY IN EDESSA,
*KARAMOS LIVED AROUND 800 BC*, *AFTER THE RETURN OF TEMENIDES, (DORIAN DESCENT)

SO ON THE GLORY AND PEAK OF HETTITES, TROY RISES,*
*ARZAWA ASSUWA ALLIANCE FALLS AND MOVES TO MYCENAE

Could BRYGIANS MOVE TO EAST, AT THAT ERA? 
*AT THE PEAK OF HETTITE EMPIRE?

*1rst Colonisation is after COLLAPSE OF TROY
*SO BRYGIANS DID NOT MOVE BEFORE MYCENAEANS DESTROY TROY,
AND SURELY NOT BEFORE SEA PEOPLES.

*SO EITHER WE ACCEPT THAT BRYGIANS MOVED TO PHRYGIA LOGICALLY AFTER SEA PEOPLES*
WHEN EVERYBODY MOVED AND MYCENAE COLLAPSE.

*OR WE ACCEPT THAT THE PHRYGIANS OF HOMER, ARE NO THE BRYGIANS, AND PROBABLY NEVER THAT MOVED HAPPENED*
BUT THE TRIBES THAT DIAKONOV RECOGNS
*
NOTICE
BRYGIANS ARE NOT ILLYRIANS

2 Usefull links
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

SO WHEN EVERYBODY IS MOVING FROM MINOR ASIA DUE TO HETTITES
HOW COME BRYGIANS MOVED THERE BEFORE TROY COLLAPSE?*

----------


## Archetype0ne

Have to mail back the FTDNA (64?) after receiving it a couple of weeks ago, have been procrastinating a bit... And yes, the DNA project at FTDNA was my inspiration for the purchase,.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> I THINK WE ARE STILL UNDER same trap
> 
> 
> *AND WE DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT ITS BASE,*
> 
> BRYGIANS INHABIT NORTH OF PROTO-GREEK
> BRYGIANS MOVE SOUTHERN DUE TO ILLYRIANS COMING FROM NORICUM
> 
> AEOLIANS MOVE EAST TO PELASGIAN ARGOS AND THN EAST TO AEOLIS
> ...



For all we know Illyrian was an umbrella term with only strict geographic definition, if I am not mistake. And Phyrgins most likely moved a millenia or so before the sea peoples. Since the sea peoples most likely where the armies that did not return to Greece for some 10 years after the end of the Troyan war. "According to this inscription, the Luwians from western Asia Minor contributed decisively to the so-called Sea Peoples' invasions – and thus to the end of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...e-age.html#jCp"

https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but inscription by Ramses II? mentions DRDN by hieroglyph as having battled vs the Egyptians.

----------


## Johane Derite

> The battle of kadesh mentions Dardanians in NW Anatolia in 1270 BC, so this is 70 years before the beginning of the "Balkanic Troy" archeological period (_1200 - 950 BC)_. 
> So maybe they came a bit before this time.


Visualization of where the egyptians describe them in 1270 (Masa = Mysia):

----------


## Yetos

> For all we know Illyrian was an umbrella term with only strict geographic definition, if I am not mistake. And Phyrgins most likely moved a millenia or so before the sea peoples. Since the sea peoples most likely where the armies that did not return to Greece for some 10 years after the end of the Troyan war. "According to this inscription, the Luwians from western Asia Minor contributed decisively to the so-called Sea Peoples' invasions – and thus to the end of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.
> 
> Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...e-age.html#jCp"
> 
> https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian...ronze-age.html
> 
> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but inscription by Ramses II? mentions DRDN by hieroglyph as having battled vs the Egyptians.


If Brygians moved a millenia before Troy,
Surely the names have no meaning, 
As also they might return to Mycenae named as Arcades (Arza-wa=Arca-dia)
Before the Troyan War.

READ THIS 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa


*The map of what was Phrygia before troyan war*



*
WHAT IS HISTORICALLY KNOWN AS PHRYGIA TODAY,
DID NOT EXISTED BEFORE COLLAPSE OF TROY.
IT WAS ARZAWA, WHICH IN GREEK BECOMES ARKADIA*

----------


## Archetype0ne

Troy was Wilusa in your map. Arzawa would have been their allies, or even potentially on the belligerant side with the aecheans. Check where the Troad is. Isn't north-west of Arzawa? 

Edit: Yes, it seems. "Modern scholars have often located Assuwa only in the north-west corner of Anatolia, an area centred north or north-west of the future Arzawa. This has made the inclusion of Caria, _Lukka and/or Lycia problematic, as they were clearly located in south-west Anatolia. Their inclusion would mean that Assuwa included areas both north and south of Arzawa. However, the confederative structure of Assuwa may well have included states in two or more geographically separate, non-contiguous areas, which lacked a common land border."_

Edit3: Proof: "The inhabitants of Hisarlik lived among a number of vigorous, interactive and often warlike cultures. Apart from the mainland Greeks whence they may have sprung, the Trojans counted such neighbours as the Hittites, Phrygians and Lydians. It has been suggested that the polity at ancient Hisarlik might be one and the same with that known to the Hittites as Wilusa.[7]"

"The unbroken occupation of the region around Hisarlik continued with the arrival of the Romans.[_citation needed_] Finally, after several centuries of trying, the Greeks gained control of the region once ruled by the Trojans. Around 1050-800 B.C., Ionian Greek refugees fled to Anatolia, to escape the Dorians. Many cities were founded along the Anatolian coast during the great period of Greek expansion after the eighth century B.C. One of these, Byzantium, a distant colony established on the Bosporus by the city-state of Megara, grew to supplant Rome and ultimately proved the downfall of Troy as it dominated all maritime and overland trade for almost 22 centuries" 

So 3 centuries after the fall of Troy and the population fleeing, and Hyllis going to the Dorians and becoming king, they are attacked from the east? Guess by who...

_

Edit2: But what do you mean when you say "Surely the names would have no meaning"? From Agron of Ilum to Agron of Epirro-Illyrians there is at least 900 years... Does this mean it has no meaning?_

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Visualization of where the egyptians describe them in 1270 (Masa = Mysia):


Interesting in that region Ilion, Troy, Scmunader (Shkumbin?), Sard Mountain (Sharr?), Mount Ollympus*, and Lake Apollonius* are located... *Since renamed by the Seljuks.

----------


## Sile

https://www.foxnews.com/science/long...ered-in-greece

----------


## Yetos

> Troy was Wilusa in your map. Arzawa would have been their allies, or even potentially on the belligerant side with the aecheans. Check where the Troad is. Isn't north-west of Arzawa? 
> 
> Edit: Yes, it seems. "Modern scholars have often located Assuwa only in the north-west corner of Anatolia, an area centred north or north-west of the future Arzawa. This has made the inclusion of Caria, _Lukka and/or Lycia problematic, as they were clearly located in south-west Anatolia. Their inclusion would mean that Assuwa included areas both north and south of Arzawa. However, the confederative structure of Assuwa may well have included states in two or more geographically separate, non-contiguous areas, which lacked a common land border."_
> 
> Edit3: Proof: "The inhabitants of Hisarlik lived among a number of vigorous, interactive and often warlike cultures. Apart from the mainland Greeks whence they may have sprung, the Trojans counted such neighbours as the Hittites, Phrygians and Lydians. It has been suggested that the polity at ancient Hisarlik might be one and the same with that known to the Hittites as Wilusa.[7]"
> 
> "The unbroken occupation of the region around Hisarlik continued with the arrival of the Romans.[_citation needed_] Finally, after several centuries of trying, the Greeks gained control of the region once ruled by the Trojans. Around 1050-800 B.C., Ionian Greek refugees fled to Anatolia, to escape the Dorians. Many cities were founded along the Anatolian coast during the great period of Greek expansion after the eighth century B.C. One of these, Byzantium, a distant colony established on the Bosporus by the city-state of Megara, grew to supplant Rome and ultimately proved the downfall of Troy as it dominated all maritime and overland trade for almost 22 centuries" 
> 
> So 3 centuries after the fall of Troy and the population fleeing, and Hyllis going to the Dorians and becoming king, they are attacked from the east? Guess by who...
> ...


*Arzawa is what become Assuwa and Mycenean Allies*

----------


## Yetos

@ DERITE

I strongly suggest you to notice this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians

We have the oposite here,

Mysians came to Europe

*SO IF DARDANIA AND DARDANELIA ARE THE SAME,
THEN BY FOLLOWING THE MYSIAN WAY,
DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA 
*
<<movement of Mysians and associated peoples from Asia into Europe still earlier than the Trojan War, wherein the Mysians and Teucrians had crossed the Bosphorus into Europe and, after conquering all of Thrace, pressed forward till they came to the Ionian Sea,>>
*So in the case of Dardanelia and Mysia, WE MIGHT HAVE AN OPOSITE WAY THAN THE BRYGIAN DID.

BY THAT IF I FOLLOW YOUR LOGIC,
THEN DARDANIANS CAME FROM ASIA AND MYSIA to DARDANIA.

*btw 

*AGAIN THANK YOU MAN.




PS

*I suggest also read about the Bithynoi 
Brygians might move to Asia same time with Bithynoi,
All of them After Troy.

----------


## Archetype0ne

That we all came from somewhere, that is certain. But you are saying that Albos came from Asia in what I smell as a rhetorical "attack?".... where did Modern Greeks come from?
I am not saying this to spite you... For I do not benefit from it... But up until 1800's and 1900's there were population exchanges between non-proto-Greek-Greeks from Anatolia and Albanian muslims from South Albania, facilitated by the Ottomans. So weather it is the case that some people came there in the 1900's from Asia and consider themselves "Greek" or weather someone took the same path 3000 Years earlier, does not that differentiate the two? Cause surely it must. But it should not differentiate anyone in this day and age from getting their equity and being equal, as much as God allows...

Also Mysians=/=Dardans. When Achilles lands in Asia minor, he wounds the king of Mysia, who is just an ally of the Dardans, and not a Dardan per se...




> @ DERITE
> 
> I strongly suggest you to notice this
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians
> 
> We have the oposite here,
> 
> Mysians came to Europe
> ...

----------


## Archetype0ne

Luwian to this day is undecipherable, I suspect once we get the key to the language, which through analysis has proven different from Hittite or other languages of the Area, we might get new avenues of speculation. Luwian tablets and inscriptions were found in Wilsua, and I suspect that is not a coincidence.

Personally interested in anything resembling written proto-Albanian that predates the AD. Do not really care where it is found, or how it got there, although those questions would naturally rise up if such proto-Albanian inscription in the BC is found/confirmed.

In case you are genuinely interested Yetos, check this: https://www.academia.edu/14814284/Re...ate_of_the_art
Not that good of a paper imo... but a good place to start since it aint pay-walled.

Edit to add another source: https://www.academia.edu/376831/Furt...?auto=download

A silver bowl dated ~1400BC, with insciption "REGIO.DOMINUS" and other words in Luwian, speculated to come from the Troad could give us clues. A) Date is close to the period we are interested in. B) "REGIO.DOMINUS" could Imply it was a silver bowl of the ruling dynasty, although REGIO.DOMINUS inscription could have been added a bit later, potentially compatible with the Dardan dynasty in Troy. C) It is in Luwian, which is speculated to be different from the Hittite language further East and South.

----------


## Yetos

ok 


I want o end this,


*from Herodotus*

*''nor that Mysian and Teucrian host which before the Trojan war crossed the Bosporus into Europe, subduing there all the Thracians and coming down to the Ionian sea, and marching southward as far as the river Peneus.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysians


So, if there is connectivity among Dardania and DARDANELLIA
**and is not a common similar sound, or accidental co-incidence*
*THAT IS DUE TO ANATOLIAN MYSIANS WHO MOVED TO DARDANIA BEFORE THE ILLYRIANS

*And not the oposite of Dardanians move to Dardanellia,
or due to Brygians

from before 2500 BC till Troyan War we have population moves from East to West, From Asia to Europe,
The oposite starts with 1rst Colonisation, and has its peak after Alexander's era, The Hellenistic Era.

*SO MOST POSSIBLE IS THAT BRYGIANS GREEKS BITHYNOI ETC (BA:LKANIC PEOPLE) MOVED TO ASIA AFTER TROYAN WAR,
*AS BEFORE TROYAN WAR WE HAVE THE COMMING OF MYCENEANS FROM ANATOLIA, THE Push of Anatolians to West and Aegean, 
the coming of Hettites etc


*@ Derite,

thank you again man,
You have just proved that Dardanians are Anatolians, and before The Illyrian Arrival,
So Dardanians are not Illyrians, not Brygians, but Anatolian origin Mysians !!!!!*


*Btw
what is the next Atopon?*

*
*

----------


## Archetype0ne

> ok 
> 
> 
> I want o end this,
> 
> 
> *from Herodotus*
> 
> *''nor that Mysian and Teucrian host which before the Trojan war crossed the Bosporus into Europe,13 subduing there all the Thracians and coming down to the Ionian sea, and marching southward as far as the river Peneus.''
> ...


So it became apparent to me you have an agenda other than the truth... whatever such a thing is.

Not according to Homer... Who lived at least 300 years prior to Herodotus, and the Homeric epic is probably much much earlier than Homer himself... Herodotus wrote about Phyrgians after they had been in Wilusa already for ~800 Years, as related to the Thracians, and Byrgians. But I would not trust him to know much about direction or causation...

"A minor episode in the Trojan War cycle in Greek mythology has the Greek fleet land at Mysia, *mistaking it for* *Troy*. Achilles wounds their king, Telephus, after he slays a Greek; Telephus later pleads with Achilles to heal the wound. This coastal region ruled by Telephus is alternatively named "Teuthrania" in Greek mythology, as it was previously ruled by a King Teuthras. In the Iliad, Homer represents the Mysians as allies of Troy, with the Mysian forces led by Ennomus (a prophet) and Chromius, sons of Arsinous. "

Edit: Also if we go by both Homer and later Herodotus, Dardans were one of the "ruling" houses. They did not represent the population at large, at least as I understand it. My eyes are open though, willing to accept proof if you are willing to find it.

Try to make your theories fit the facts... not the other way around

----------


## markod

> So it became apparent to me you have an agenda other than the truth... whatever such a thing is.
> 
> Not according to Homer... Who lived at least 300 years prior to Herodotus, and the Homeric epic is probably much much earlier than Homer himself... Herodotus wrote about Phyrgians after they had been in Wilusa already for ~800 Years, as related to the Thracians, and Byrgians. But I would not trust him to know much about direction or causation...
> 
> "A minor episode in the Trojan War cycle in Greek mythology has the Greek fleet land at Mysia, *mistaking it for* *Troy*. Achilles wounds their king, Telephus, after he slays a Greek; Telephus later pleads with Achilles to heal the wound. This coastal region ruled by Telephus is alternatively named "Teuthrania" in Greek mythology, as it was previously ruled by a King Teuthras. In the Iliad, Homer represents the Mysians as allies of Troy, with the Mysian forces led by Ennomus (a prophet) and Chromius, sons of Arsinous. "
> 
> Edit: Also if we go by both Homer and later Herodotus, Dardans were one of the "ruling" houses. They did not represent the population at large, at least as I understand it. My eyes are open though, willing to accept proof if you are willing to find it.
> 
> Try to make your theories fit the facts... not the other way around


Why do you think scholars usually consider Trojans to have been either Luwian (the most common view) or Thracian-Phyrgian? It's very unlikely that they were Illyrians, as the material culture of metal age Troy looks either Anatolian or eastern Balkanic.

Those ancient narratives about the mythical ancestors of various populations cannot really be trusted. The Greeks themselves, and especially the Dorians, used to believe they descended from Egyptians, for example.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Why do you think scholars usually consider Trojans to have been either Luwian (the most common view) or Thracian-Phyrgian? It's very unlikely that they were Illyrians, as the material culture of metal age Troy looks either Anatolian or eastern Balkanic.
> 
> Those ancient narratives about the mythical ancestors of various populations cannot really be trusted. The Greeks themselves, and especially the Dorians, used to believe they descended from Egyptians, for example.


Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.

When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.

I am starting to think Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.

Edit to address your question: 
Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Luwian, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...

I do not have proof, all of this is speculation so bare with my ignorance. However the circumstantial evidence and what is missing is obvious.

Edit2: I did not downvote your inquiry, and I suspect whoever did had the intention to signal that I did it Markod.

----------


## Sile

> Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.
> When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.
> I am starting to thing Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.
> Edit to address your question: 
> Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Linear B, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...
> I do not have proof, all of this is speculation so bare with my ignorance. However the circumstantial evidence and what is missing is obvious.
> Edit2: I did not downvote your inquiry, and I suspect whoever did had the intention to signal that I did it Markod.


while illyrians after the celtic invasion circa 500Bc became known more so as per their indinvidual tribal names , the facts are they where termed much more as just illyrians before that....strabo states they began 
*let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253 the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269*
The ister is the Danube river and he refers to south germany area.
.
but he can also be confused by some tribes.....the Galatae to him are celts that invaded the Bakans .......but he mentions the Dardani as illyrian , which might be in his time no knowledge of their anatolian connection
*among the Galatae the Boii and the Scordistae, and among the Illyrians the Autariatae, Ardiaei, and Dardanii, and among the Thracians the Triballi;
316
that is, they were reduced in warfare by one another at first and then later by the Macedonians and the Romans.* 
Galatae the Boii and the Scordistae = celts
Autariatae = souithern most illyrian tribe, north of the dardani
Ardiaei = coastal montengro illyrian tribe, most southern on the coast
Triballi = thracian tribe and what serbs claim they have a high % of
.
.
He then states the dardani as different to the illyrian Autariatae
*Autariatae and the Dassaretii — different peoples on different sides being contiguous to one another and to the Autariatae.315 To the Dardaniatae belong also the p265 Galabrii,316 among whom is an ancient city,317 and the Thunatae,*
so, its seems the Dassareti are dardanians and not illyrian and the other dardanian tribes are the Galabrii and the Thunatae

----------


## Archetype0ne

Well... When did Strabo write, and when was the Iliad sung? If you answer those questions, you will understand my point.

As far as the evidence we have, After the 1300BC collapse of the Bronze Age civilization, even the greeks lost the written language, in what are considered the first dark ages... That is why the Illiad was sung, and although the Illiad might have been sung by Rhapsods, it is estimated " written version is usually dated to around the *8th century BC.* " So before putting pen to paper (figuratively), Homer knew some Epic Rhapsody about events, 4-5 centuries prior. As for 1300-800 we are completely in the DARK. Then we have mentions of Dorian invasion...

And when did Strabo write again?

I am looking for arguments here mate... if you are going to skip 1000 years in your argument, might as well say proto-Illyirans came from Africa in the 90's.

----------


## Yetos

@ ΑrchetypeOne

you still seems to follow the logic of Olga Popovic of Slavs
Only with Albanian view,

Until now only possible, accidental coincidences of names,
and you us to believe them.

Well a Suggestion to you

*STOP WATCHING MARIN MEMA AND TOP CHANNEL.*
It harms your health,

when we discuss, about a possible connection or not, but a certain !!! among Dardania and Dardanelia,
we can not claim what ever whithout historical, archaiological, genetical evidences,

*And until now the only evidence is that Mysians owners of Dardanelia reach Ionian sea, 
meaning today coastal Albania before Troyan war,
While from Europe to minor Asia colonisation starts after Troyan war.

as for Telephos which is pure Mycenean-Greek name, Τηλε-
*I wonder why you mix him?
do you believe that Amaltheia also comes from Mal+Di = mountain goat in Albanian?

----------


## Archetype0ne

Ok Mr. I dont source my points LMAO.... At least you serve for a good laugh. I refuted your claim 3 times already, but cant teach a pig to fly, nor a stone to think.

Angela.... Infraction taken into consideration, you don't even have to mention it.

----------


## Yetos

> Ok Mr. I dont source my points LMAO.... At least you serve for a good laugh. I refuted your claim 3 times already, but cant teach a pig to fly, nor a stone to think.
> 
> Angela.... Infraction take into consideration, you don't even have to mention it.


ok, then

we have an agreement? 
you agree with my point of view.

----------


## Boreas

> *
> as for Telephos which is pure Mycenean-Greek name, Τηλε-
> *


How is it PURE Mycenean-Greek?, it sounds Hittites. Telipinu King, Telipinu God etc.

----------


## Yetos

@ boreas

Τηλεμαχος
Τηλεφος
Τηλεφασσα,
Τηλεβολον
Τηλεγονος
Τηλεβοας
Tελος
Τηλεσκοπιον

Τηλε means away, afar, far off, 

words like 
Telephone in Greek is away-voice
Television away-vision
Telegraph
etc,

Τηλε = Tele Greek form of IE *kwel

----------


## Archetype0ne

Dardans *were not* Mysians, they were not even Trojan... 

DO NOT TRUST ME. TRUST YOUR OWN EYES. AND YOUR OWN HOMER... HE WAS GREEK RIGHT?

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6130/6130-pdf.pdf

Click that link, ctrl+f "*darda*" and you will see the root quoted *34 time*s in the *Illiad*.

It is quoted, explicitly as a *race*, in juxtaposition and *exclusive* from "*Grecian*", who were the Aecheas, no such thing as Greek at the time, proto-Greek ill grant you.
And Dardans explicitly in juxtaposition to Troyans themselves.

"Divine Æneas brings the *Dardan race*,Anchises' son, by Venus' stolen embrace,Born in the shades of Ida's secret grove;(A mortal mixing with the queen of love;)"

"His speedy succour to the Spartan king;Pierced with a winged shaft (the deed of Troy),The *Grecian*'s sorrow, and the *Dardan*'s joy.""

"Ye *Trojans*, *Dardans*, all our generous foes! [065]Hear and attest! from Heaven with conquest crown'd,"

"From *ancient Dardanus*, the first from Jove:Dardania's walls he *raised*; for *Ilion*, then,(The city since of *many-languaged* men,)Was not. The natives were content to tillThe shady foot of Ida's fountful hill.264From Dardanus great Erichthonius springs,The richest, once, of Asia's wealthy kings;"

Then you have *Strabo* parroting off a couple hundred years later, Homer version...

https://books.google.mk/books?id=qs8...strabo&f=false 
*Page 58*

Read for yourself

Edited to add source:

https://books.google.mk/books?id=qs8...rdania&f=false

*Page 136-137* So interesting...

----------


## Yetos

@ ArchetypeOne,

If you noticed I wrote 
Thank you and another name, not yours.

But you answered me about Brygians move before Troyan war,

anyway,
We are not here to answer Marin Mema and Top channel 'histories' or 'hysterias'
who provide troyan war as Albanian civil war,
Troy was Albanian
Achilles was Albanian.
So Troyan war an Albanian civil war

I see you are new to forum
I have nothing against you,
but with the 'hysteria' that some want us to provide as history.

who and what were the Dardanians,
really It is not me to say,
but when Isee such videos, 
I really have to put things in order,

So if you believe that Dardanians were Illyrians, and Also Troyans, or Build Troy,
much before the Illyrian arrival, 
Then Herodotos have the answer to you, the Mysian theory.
Illyrian Troy is beyond imagination I think.
as also the oposite,

Btw
the most funny I ever seen at TOP channel 
was an Albanian female Historian
claiming Greeks never fought a single battle.

now lets all have a nice night,
I will travel 500 km to protest against the new treaty tonight,


*Plus 
notice this*

(S)Achaioi
Saxons
Czech

Danaoi
Danes

Wales
Waloons
Wallachs

*it is IE*
Danes are Danish and Danaoi are Mycenans
Wales is in Britain 
Wallons in Belgium
Wallachs in Wallachia,
etc

----------


## markod

> Myth is not truth, I agree... but where there is smoke there is fire, and certainly not ice.
> 
> When are the Illyrians mentioned in 1300BC? Such a term did not exist during this time period, AFAIK.
> 
> I am starting to think Illyria was Illyria purely for administrative purposes, and later than Bronze Age... More like during Classical times.
> 
> Edit to address your question: 
> Cause at the time the term Illyria did not exist, was not used. Whoever these inhabitants of the Troad where, they were multi-ethnic see one of my previous posts with quotes in bold, at least 3 different entities if not more, were known to inhabit Lawusa, where Luwian tablets where found. We know linear A, what about linear B? All we know is that Luwian was used in the Western-most corner of Anatolia, written in Linear B, and from what we have desciphered, Linear B, in contrast to all other Hatti and Hittite language did not use sufix -li...
> 
> ...


I agree with your general point, Greek sources aren't really sufficient to make any solid conclusions, especially because they have been written down centuries after the occurences as you said. If scholars ascribe either Luwian or Thracian/Phrygian to the Troyans, this is based on evidence that is rather thin like the look of the pottery, a single inscription etc. .

I think at one point we'll find out since there are hundreds of completely unexcavated Bronze Age settlements in Western Anatolia. Turkey had understandbly barred its doors to archaeological research due to rampant theft and forgeries of valuable artefacts by Western scientists in the 20th century, but it seems like Turkish archaeologists are taking up the task now. IMHO there's bound to be a lot of written evidence in those Bronze Age sites.

As for the Illyrian connection, I just don't think that the Greek geneaologies are really anything but fiction. We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym. And as was mentioned, the Balkanic connection in the material culture points to eastern Bulgaria, a region traditionally connected with north-western Anatolia.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> I agree with your general point, Greek sources aren't really sufficient to make any solid conclusions, especially because they have been written down centuries after the occurences as you said. If scholars ascribe either Luwian or Thracian/Phrygian to the Troyans, this is based on evidence that is rather thin like the look of the pottery, a single inscription etc. .
> 
> I think at one point we'll find out since there are hundreds of completely unexcavated Bronze Age settlements in Western Anatolia. Turkey had understandbly barred its doors to archaeological research due to rampant theft and forgeries of valuable artefacts by Western scientists in the 20th century, but it seems like Turkish archaeologists are taking up the task now. IMHO there's bound to be a lot of written evidence in those Bronze Age sites.
> 
> As for the Illyrian connection, I just don't think that the Greek geneaologies are really anything but fiction. We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym. And as was mentioned, the Balkanic connection in the material culture points to eastern Bulgaria, a region traditionally connected with north-western Anatolia.


Could not disagree with your first two points.
As for the third.

Illyrian connection *does not go back* *in time*, think analytic continuation, and causation... What I have been trying to no avail to point out, is that the "Illyrian" raison d'etre as a term might have been to connect a loose connection between people living in the Balkans during the second ancient-Greek (Grecian) literary phase. Namely 800BC and after. Not surprisingly, this is when sources start to appear, referring to Dardans, as well as other tribes inhabiting Illyria, as Illyrian, and Illyrians as "supposedly" related to Thracians. Before that, inland, Balkanic people are know as Thracians and Pellasgian based on sources, And... not surprisingly (?) the term Illyria, and subsequently "Illyrian" gains popularity with the rise of Rome, and through Roman scholars, I suspect for administrative reasons.

Myth generally should not be taken at face value, just like the Bible or the Torah. However, one is foolish not to consider what we have and leave all, and I mean, all, presuppositions at the door. 

If you are aware with what Rhapsodes do... it is something akin to memorizing songs... albeit 800 page songs. There certainly is corruption over time, but you would be surprised how reliable "rhapsodes" are.

Are you aware who Schliemann is? I suspect he was not disappointed in the accuracy of such "fictional songs" since he materially substantiated legend.

And where you have both smoke and fire, you can not claim the fire is cold. 


Now before I go on a tangent.

What does this mean? Nothing... Just speculation. However I am cynic as to your own cynicism regarding sources that have been historically proven right, at least materially.

Read my comment to Yetos... and you shall also notice that Dardan was not an exonym, to the contrary, the royal family itself called themselves that. You shall also notice... that Dardan are explicitly stated as a different entity from the Troyans, in land, and in blood, they just ruled jointly, respectively upper and lower Scumander basin. Hence the statement "We do not even know if the Troyans called themselves so, or whether Dardanoi was simply an exonym." doesn't make much sense.

I fully agree with you tho, that only time will tell.

----------


## Archetype0ne

*List of Trojan War characters
Armies[edit]*

Greek armies
Trojan armies*

Abantes of Euboea
Locris
Amazons

Aetolia
Magnesia
Adrasteia

Arcadia
Meliboea
Caria

Argos
Minyans
Chalybes (Halizones)

Athens
Mycenae
Colonae

Boebe (Thessaly)
Myrmidones
Cicones

Boeotia
Oechalia
Dardania

Calydnian Islands
Ormenius
Æthiopia

Carpathos
Pherae
Lycia

Corinth
Phocis
Maeonia

Crete
Phylacia
Mysia

Cos
Pylos
Paionia

Dulichium
Rhodes
Paphlagonia

Elis
Salamis
Pelasgians

Elone (Thessaly)
Sicyon
Percote

Enienes
Sparta
Phrygia

Iolcus (Thessaly)
Syme
Thrace

Ithaca
Tiryns
Troy

Ithome
Tricca
Zeleia


Not ONE mention of Illyrians... Anywhere... Even Aethiopians participated FFS.

We see roughly a 2:1 belligerent ratio between Aegean League and Ilium, at least in term of nominal tribal participation, which might not necessarily imply fighter ratio.

Furthermore...

*Hyllus (river)*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


_Hyllus/Hyllos is also the name of a son of Heracles, see Hyllus.
_*Hyllus* or *Hyllos* (Greek: Ὕλλος) was the ancient name of a river of Asia Minor. It is a tributary of the river Hermus, in Lydia, flowing into Hermus from the north.[1]* In the time of Strabo, the river was called Phrygius.**[2]
*



Notice in the above picture how the Dardanus "settlement", which according to legend was founded by Dardanus himself, ancestor of the Dardans and their very namesake corresponds with the flow of rivers. If we are to believe Homer, who has so far been proven archaeologically correct, even more so than Strabo who wrote centuries later:
One of these rivers in the north corresponding approximately with the settlement of Dardanus, if not a different river now extinct, would have flown North to South, next to the Dardanus settlement, and feed into the Scamander. 

Now... Following logic... There was a river feeding into Hermus (alternatively name for Scamander), named Hyllus. 

"*Ilium*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Ilion (Asia Minor), former name of TroyIlium (Epirus), an ancient city in Epirus, GreeceIlium, ancient name of Cestria (Epirus), an ancient city in Epirus, Greece "
*

"Scamander*


_This article is about a river god. For the ruler of Boeotia, see Scamander (king of Boeotia)._

_Water, or the Fight of Achilles against Scamander and Simoeis_ by Auguste Couder, 1819.

*Scamander* /skəˈmændər/, *Skamandros* (Ancient Greek: Σκάμανδρος, ) *Xanthos* (Ξάνθος), was the name of a river god in Greek mythology.


*Mythology*


Achilles and Scamander

*Scamander fought on the side of the Trojans* during the Trojan War (_Iliad_ XX, 73/74; XXI), after the Greek hero Achilles insulted him. *Scamander was also said to have attempted to kill Achilles three times, and the hero was only saved due to the intervention of Hera, Athena and Hephaestus.* In this context, he is the personification of the Scamander River that flowed from Mount Ida across the plain beneath the city of Troy, joining the Hellespont north of the city. The Achaeans, according to Homer, had set up their camp near its mouth, and their battles with the Trojans were fought on the plain of Scamander. In Iliad XXII (149ff), Homer states that the river had two springs: one produced warm water; the other yielded cold water, regardless of the season.
*
According to Homer*, he was called *Xanthos by gods and Scamander* by men, which might indicate that the former *name refers to the god and the latter one to the river* itself.[6] "



Epirus in antiquity

*Ilium* or *Ilion* (Ancient Greek: Ἴλιον), also known as *Troja* (Τροΐα),[1] was a city of ancient Epirus[2] It is mentioned in the _Aeneid_ of Virgil as a foundation of Helenus after the Trojan War in the land of the Chaonia.[3] "
*


Make of that what thou wilt.*

----------


## Archetype0ne

*"Skepsis* or *Scepsis* (Ancient Greek: Σκέψις) was an ancient settlement in the Troad, Asia Minor that is at the present site of the village of Kurşunlutepe, near the town of Bayramiç in Turkey. The settlement is notable for being the location where the famous library of Aristotle was kept before being moved to Pergamum and Alexandria.[1] It was also home to Metrodorus of Scepsis and Demetrius of Scepsis.


*History[edit]*

The city of Skepsis was situated in two different, non-contemporary sites on Mount Ida, Palea-Skepsis and the settlement of Skepsis proper."

According to Strabo citing some other historian... have to find the citation since I read this yesterday... Skepsis was the older settlement in the region, settled after some catastrophe in the lower plains, what I suspect a flood, by way of Black Sea.

Take this catastrophe myth with a grain of salt till I find the page I read it in, somewhere in Strabo's on the Troad Book XIII Cap I.

According to Strabo, Dardans were the ones to settle Skepsis after such catastrophe. And for a "long" time it was the only settlement. With the passing of time other settlers came, and once the fear of settling the lower plains was but a memory, they settled the lower Western plain which was highly fertile. Here the Dardans had hereditary rule for the North plain of Scamander, whereas Trojans where just below the river.


The two entities however, combined formed Ilium as we know from the Iliad. 





Sari peak at mount IDA above for reference. They call it Sari Kiz (or more often "Baba Tepe" LMAO, not even preserving the root today though)
If Seljuks had not completely erased the ancient toponyms from the area truth would be much more obvious.

But what I do notice is Scamander, Skepsis, and Sari.

----------


## Archetype0ne

"Heracles, whom Zeus had originally intended to be ruler of Argos, Lacedaemon and Messenian Pylos, had been supplanted by the cunning of Hera, and his intended possessions had fallen into the hands of Eurystheus, king of Mycenae. After the death of Heracles, his children, after many wanderings, found refuge from Eurystheus at Athens. Eurystheus, on his demand for their surrender being refused, attacked Athens, but was defeated and slain."


This IMO is what set in motion the differentiation of proto-Greeks with proto-Albanians. To this day we have genetic difference between Athens and Argos (Achea+Morea) reflecting this split.
"Hyllus and his brothers invaded Peloponnesus, but after a year's stay were forced by a pestilence to quit. They withdrew to Thessaly, where Aegimius, the mythical ancestor of the Dorians, whom Heracles had assisted in war against the Lapidae, adopted Hyllus and made over to him a third part of his territory. After the death of Aegimius, his two sons, Pamphylus and Dymas, voluntarily submitted to Hyllus, who thus became ruler of the Dorians, the three branches of that race being named after these three heroes. Being desirous of reconquering his paternal inheritance, Hyllus consulted the Delphic oracle, which told him to wait for "the third fruit," and then enter Peloponnesus by "a narrow passage by sea."

Supposedly they tried to invade Aechean Greeks 3 times, failing, explaining the ~300 years it took for the Dorian invasion to finally mean anything.

"The Heracleidae ruled in Lacedaemon until 221 BC, but disappeared much earlier in the other countries. This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the *"Return of the Heracleidae,"* is represented as the recovery by the *descendants of Heracles* of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, *but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical.* " Especially bolded so Markod wont miss it.

Heracles was a slave turned to legendary Hero and King in western Anatolia. Etrusci claimed descent of Heracles. Dorians claimed descent of Heracles. In Virgils Aeneid Apollonia and Ilium (*Ancient* Epirus) were founded by Troyan refugees, some of which ended in Etruria...

If anyone plans to take my words and to misuse them saying I am implying Etruscans and Proto Albanians as same entity do not even try. Have already posted proof enough that Troy/Ilium was a multi entity league. What is written black and white by Homer, Herodotus, Strabo, Virgil is simply that "some" of the ancestors of modern Etruscans were of the same tribe as the Dardani, and Aenea himself was a Dardan.

If anyone wants additional sources to understand what the hell I am talking about**:

https://indo-european.info/ie/Paleo-Balkan_languages

https://indo-european.eu/haplogroup-...ndo-europeans/

https://indo-european.eu/tag/wilusija/

https://indo-european.eu/2018/05/con...ansion-routes/

======================================

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Trojan_race 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iardanus_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agron_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardys_of_Lydia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyllus_(river)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gegania_(gens)

========================


Strabo on the Troad;

Virgils Aeneid;


Homers Iliad;

----------


## Boreas

> @ boreas
> 
> Τηλεμαχος
> Τηλεφος
> Τηλεφασσα,
> Τηλεβολον
> Τηλεγονος
> Τηλεβοας
> Tελος
> ...


Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?

---------------------------------------

Is there any Trojan DNA sample?

----------


## Boreas

> 


Is there full map? Source of Map, please?

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Is there full map? Source of Map, please?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...ng#filehistory

About DNA.... I wish. Tried to find ancient tested samples related to this period to no avail.

----------


## Yetos

> Is Hittite names which I gave also Greek originate or coming from same IE root, Which makes it definitely not 100% / pure Mycenean-Greek?
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> Is there any Trojan DNA sample?


Boreas

Tηλε Tele is Mycenean Greek,

if one Hettite found as Telipinu
while so many Mycenean-Greek as Wrote to you
as the evolution from IE
does not change it

https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...86%CE%BB%CE%B5

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...86%CE%BB%CE%B5

plz do not insist it is Hittite

IE *kwel,
but Greek τηλε
in another IE might be different

----------


## Yetos

@ ArchetypeOne

in an effort to help you, or enrich your names
I give this 

*Illuyanka* of Hettites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka

now as you notice
Hyllous river means 
either eel living river, like Hellopotamos, and possibly Enhelleis
either snake form river, the later Greek Maiandros from minor Asia omonymos river

from *hillu 
English eel
Latin anguilla
Greek Heli Eγχελυον

----------


## Archetype0ne

Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...

*"Middle Bronze Age[edit]*

Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), *which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point.* According to most scholars, the *Hittites* were then settled in *upper Kızılırmak* and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, _nešili_). The *Luwians* most likely lived in *southern and western Anatolia*, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as _nuwaʿum_ without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."


Notice *Argo Grecians* - Non Heraclid* Proto Greeks* refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
Notice *Luwians* - *Heracleid Proto Albanians* - according to my *hypothesis.
*And finally, for the love of God... Notice *Hittites.* *Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with* *Hittite**? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have* *Luwians**, and then you have* *Hittites**, and then you have* *Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks**.*




*"Hittite period[edit]*

*The Old Hittite laws from the 17th century BC contain cases relating to the then independent regions of Palā (comment: I suspect R1B Pelasgs, althoug highly unlikely and speculative) and Luwiya.* Traders and displaced people *seem to have moved from one country to the other* on the basis of agreements between* Ḫattusa* and *Luwiya*.[3] It has been argued that the*Luwians never formed a single unified Luwian state*, but populated a number of polities where they mixed with other population groups. However, a minority opinion holds that in the end they did form a unified force, and brought about the end of Bronze Age civilization by attacking the Hittites and then other areas as the Sea People.
During the Hittite period, the kingdoms of Šeḫa [de] and Arzawa developed in the west, focussed on *the Maeander valley.(comment:Check the map I posted before, where does meander run? does it run beneath Skepsis?)* In the south was the state of Kizzuwatna, which was inhabited by a mixture of Hurrians and Luwians. The kingdom of Tarḫuntašša developed during the Hittite New Kingdom, in southern Anatolia. *The kingdom of Wilusa was located in northwest Anatolia on the site of Troy.* *Whether* any of these kingdoms *represented a Luwian state* cannot be clearly determined on current evidence and *is a matter of controversy* in contemporary scholarship."

And also, phonetically how do you pronounce Ὕλλος" in Greek ? I don't even know your script mate and I can read the first word of the Illiad in _Ancient Greek_ whatever that means.

"*Mëneaj*" do you know what that means? Don't google it now. But it certainly represents my feeling towards you after you flooding this post with tangential unrelated BS to get off topic, while "pretending" to "enrich my names"... Think I am done with this topic.



PS. I even colored the names for you so you don't get confused, each color represents something different.

Edit to add some context::
"The poem's initial word, μῆνιν (_mēnin, accusative of μῆνις, mēnis, "wrath, rage, fury"), establishes the Iliad's principal theme: The "Wrath of Achilles".[33]_ 



Wow. Achilles! Buddy! Stop rekking the Aecheans please. 
Nvm,f*ck him too, for what he did to Hector.


Note:I wonder if Peleus:Pellasgian is the same relation Grecian*:Greek.

Grecian are the people Homer refers to as living in Argos, (Achea+Morea), in the Illiad.
Helens are the descendants of Helen and the king of Argos.
Dorians are the people that rekt the Grecians ~900BC, sparing Athens. 

Don't believe me? Read for yourself. Homer was a boss.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Very interesting presentation: 

https://slideplayer.com/slide/4572029/

They do not even mention "Albanian", but if one follows basic logic the facts lead only one way.
This is not new information from what I understand, I just was not previously aware of it and had doubts.
The presentation above is from 2011. But I guess our propaganda driven states have no interest in disseminating such valuable knowledge.

Yetos is a similar to many acquaintances of mine, albeit of different nationalities, since hate knows no bounds... They grew up learning history in jumps of 2000 Years. I know I did... Jumped from 300 BC to WW1 in our history class... no kidding. and I had to research myself to get anywhere. But contrary to Yetos I am not blind when faced with the facts.

----------


## bigsnake49

> Edit: how to delete this post? Let the professionals continue the discussion


What professionals? Where? Where? All I see here is rank speculation to elevate ones modern nation to a grandeur that it does not deserve. Let's face it, most people's ancestors deserve kudos just because they survived. That's all. My ancestors were farmers since probably the Neolithic, never moving more than 10-20 miles away from where their ancestors lived. Thracians never had a written language so no literature, maybe some oral history that was lost. They were supposed to be good with horses and fierce warriors and famed for their strong wine and Dionysian orgies. The findings in present day Bulgaria also point to well developed gold jewelry skills. But really that's it. I cannot point to some world renowned civilization. The same can be said about the descendants of the ancient Dacians, Illyrians, Moesans, etc. Farmers and herders and that's that. Face it and go on. Create a new future civilization you can be proud of because your ancestors, and mine, were just that, small scale farmers and herders. If my more recent ancestors were turkified I would be speaking Turkish and be a muslim. If they were bulgarized I would be speaking Bulgarian. It does not change the fact that basically they were humble folk. I am glad they survived through the Celtic, Roman, Avar, Goth, Bulgar Slav and Turkish invasions and I am here.

----------


## Johane Derite

Further commonalities between Troy and "Illyria" that Achilles reveals:

----------


## Ygorcs

> Not really helpful Yetos, in case that was your genuine intention...
> 
> *"Middle Bronze Age[edit]*
> 
> Certain evidence of the Luwians begins around 2000 BC, with the presence of personal names and loan words in Old Assyrian Empire documents from the Assyrian colony of Kültepe, dating from between 1950 and 1700 BC (Middle Chronology), *which shows that Luwian and Hittite were already two distinct languages at this point.* According to most scholars, the *Hittites* were then settled in *upper Kızılırmak* and had their economic and political centre at Kaniš-Neša (from which the Hittite language gained its native name, _nešili_). The *Luwians* most likely lived in *southern and western Anatolia*, perhaps with a political centre at Purushanda. The Assyrian colonists and traders who were present in Anatolia at this time refer to the local people as _nuwaʿum_ without any differentiation. This term seems to derive from the name of the Luwians, with the change from l/n resulting from the mediation of Hurrian."
> 
> 
> Notice *Argo Grecians* - Non Heraclid* Proto Greeks* refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
> Notice *Luwians* - *Heracleid Proto Albanians* - according to my *hypothesis.
> ...


What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).

----------


## Yetos

Well 
WILL YOU EVER DECIDE?

*One says that Illyrians Dardanians and Troyans are connected,*

*And the other Says that Herakleides (Hercules) were proto-Albanians,

*


> Notice *Argo Grecians* - Non Heraclid* Proto Greeks* refereed to as as Myceans on the map above?
> Notice *Luwians* - *Heracleid Proto Albanians*- according to my *hypothesis.
> *And finally, for the love of God... Notice *Hittites.* *Exactly where anyone with a brain would expect them, since they are a different entity from each other. Why do you expect Luwian to have any similarity with* *Hittite**? A simple google search will enlighten you mate. You have* *Luwians**, and then you have* *Hittites**, and then you have* *Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks**.*



Will you ever decide?


Ok t
to Derite,
yes there is a Possibility that Troyans and Dardanians might be connected,
Via Myssians, 
*Herodotos writes that Myssian before Troyan war enter Europe 
conguer Thrace and reach Ionian Sea, Means coastal Albania
IN THAT CASE YOU JUST PROVED THAT DARDANIANS WERE ANATOLIANS MYSIANS
AND THEIR FIRST LANGUAGE WAS AN ANATOLIAN IE ONE,
MEANING THAT THE DARDANIANS YOU PROVIDE US SPOKE MYSIAN ANATOLIAN AND NOT ALBANIAN
EXCEPT IF YOU BELIEVE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE CAME FROM ASIA MINOR.


*

@ ArchetypeOne

I gave you a word, so not confuse, and stop providing this
Illuwanka a Hettit word, but Illu- is Found in many IE, but does it has the same meaning?

but probably you have an epiphotisis, a kind of Pentecoste flaming tongues,

What Argos Greeks? what Herakleides protoAlbanian?
Do you know when Illyrians enter today Albania coming from Noricum?

Notice this
Mycenean World





Proto-Greek spoken




*Greek and Brygian and Latin come from the same split of IE
Illyrian come from Celtic family with Germanic influence, and enter with the move of Brygians.

the Argos Greeks you say
the Luwian-Herakleides protoAlbanians*  :Confused: 
and the rest  :Thinking:   :Thinking:   :Thinking: 
*Sory I can not understand what you want to share with us,*  :Petrified: 


BTW

*the time is not as you provide,*
Myceneans were already in Greece when Hettites enter minor Asia,
*Myceneans are found from 2900 BC in Greece*
and generally we know they stabilize language and culture around 2000 BC
*
Hettites came around 2000 BC to East parts of modern Turkey

so that is wrong
*


> *You have* *Luwians**, and then you have* *Hittites**, and then you have* *Argos Grecians / Myceans / Proto Greeks**.*


,


*Now about Brygian and Luwian/Lydian  NO THERE IS NO CONNECTION except both IE,

Luwian/Lydian is ancient Anatolian Family IE
Brygian Greek (and Latin?) are another family, non Anatolian 


The First way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
is to Prove that Dardanians spoke a S Caucasian language, an Anatolian one,
meaning, if you believe that today Albanians of Kossovo are linguistically the same, Albanian is Anatolian so S Caucasian language.

The Other way to make connection among Troy and Dardanians
is to prove that European IE and especially proto-Thracian, since Illyrian came after Brygians,
but lets accept even Illyrian, a Celto-germanic language, enter to minor Asia, to Troy

prove one of the 2 above,
prove not claim,



NOTICE,

before Troyan war all devastations and IE population movement were from East to West, from Asia to Europe.
Th 1rst colonization is the first move from Europe to Asia 
either by Greeks Aeoleis, either by Thracians Bithynoi etc


This is the 1rst IE migration from Europe to Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Age_Greek_migrations

ABOUT SAMETIME MOVED THE THRACIANS TO BITHYNIA AND THE BRYGIANS TO PHRYGIA,
WHO ENTER FIRST? GREEKS OR THRACIANS, I REALLY DO NOT CARE NOW*

----------


## Archetype0ne

> What we know from Luwian was clearly related to Hittite linguistically and definitely part of Anatolian IE, very unlike Albanian or other Balkanic IE. What could perhaps be argued is that the late BA was a period of Balkan to Asia Minor immigration, and Dardanians also migrated from there like Phrygians, the firast Greek settlers and perhaps even Armenians. But I doubt the eventual Albanians would come from a back-migration making the reverse path. They might share some ancestors with themm, but not come directly from them (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry).


First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too... 

"They might share some ancestors with them," - That's exactly what I am saying? "*but not come directly from them* (not in any decisive way in terms of ancestry)." *Give me proof**.* Or at least use an argument to falsify my hypothesis. Oh, and do you not use sources too? 

Also, "_Anatolian_" Indo-European is a _signifier_ of geography and location... Luwian is Anatolian Indo European, BY DEFINITION. What I am raising, as an hypothesis, is that Luwian might be related to proto-Balkanic languages (not Albanian as you would twist my words...) ie: Thracian, along with Illyrian, if there ever was such a language. I highly doubt it. Sounds just like another geographic signifier like Berber/Barbarians etc... 

Finally, I did not rule out earlier migration, or back migration. As Deride thankfully pointed out with sources such migration of the Dardans, albeit West to East is attested. I only pointed out, that following the sack of Troy and the Sea Peoples, a migration of local population made its way into the Balkans as refugees, along with the Dardans, returning to their mines westward.



As for my *personal belief*, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC. 

Anyways,

PS: Regio.Dominus - Does it sound Latin to you? Latin? In >1000BC? In Western Anatolia? I don't know... Ill have to study some linguistics it seems.

----------


## Yetos

> As for my *personal belief*, R1B was the local Balkan Pellasg population, * at the time of the J2B2 and E-V13 expansion post 1300BC. Notice... I am not ruling out branches of E-V13 J2B2 predating such influx through older branches mainland. In fact I am inclined to believe, that E-V13 and J2B2 were making their way across the Balkans along what would become the Western European coast of Rome through Italy, Spain, and even the South of England, up to as early as 2500BC.


what?

how come? any genetical source? 
or just a believe?

The same Believe I had too,
I believed E-V13 came around 2000 BC, 
But seems I was wrong,

----------


## Ygorcs

> First of all, no such thing as Albanians at the time, do not put word in my mouth.
> Second of all provide me with a source that Luwian has no connection to proto-Balkanic languages. I have provided above a linguistic paper explicitly stating Luwian was a different language based on analysis to all other Hatti and Hittite languages in the area. That they were related, that is most definitively the case, where did I state otherwise? Them being distinct is another matter... ie: Latin and Italian are related, but they sure as hell ain't the same language... Btw all IE is related, and IIRC Hittite is considered IE too....


You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before _any other_ IE subfamily and was therefore less related to _any other_ IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin). 

"Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).

As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian, and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> You mistook what I said: I said quite plainly that Luwian was like Hittite an Anatolian IE language, and by definition it was not particularly more related to any Paleo-Balkanic IE language, since Anatolian was certainly a branch of its own that split before _any other_ IE subfamily and was therefore less related to _any other_ IE language than any other two Late PIE-derived languages between themselves. In other words, Albanian and other Paleo-Balkanic attested languages weren't any closer to the likes of Luwian than to other groups like Italic, Celtic or Germanic. The relationship exists, but is traced back to PIE times, i.e. it's irrelevant for the issue at stake in this thread. Luwian not being Hittite does not mean that it belonged to a different branch nor that it was more related to other non-Anatolian IEs than Hittite was (though it could have been more influenced by them, but that's an entirely different matter, one of language strata, not linguistic origin). 
> 
> "Anatolian" is definitely not a geographical term only, it's a name that refers to a group of related languages that clearly formed a common node in the phylogenetic tree of PIE-derived languages. Spanish is not closer to German just because it is not the same as another Romance language like Italian or French. That reasoning is just misguided and based on some basic mistakes of linguistics (e.g. the idea that "Anatolian IE" is just a geographical label indicating location, not a valid language subfamily identified by linguistic methodology).
> 
> As for Albanians not deriving a decisive part of their ancestry and especiall of their ethnic identity from Luwians, that can be demonstrated from the simple fact that their language is definitely unrelated to Luwian _​(Source for this would be greatly appreciated)_, and from the fact that even if Dardanians were part of the alliances that made Troy they were supposed, archaeologically and linguistically, to have come from the Balkans into Anatolia, not the other way around, and like Brygians and Greeks still existed after part of them migrated to Asia Minor the same thing certainly happened with Dardanians: some migrated, some stayed put.


I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.

You have the burden to falsify the hypothesis, and not simply state its false by not providing any facts or mutually exclusive counterpoints.
1. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there is no cultural (identity) continuum between, what late classical, proto-Greek writers would consider Illyrians (in the context of Dardania, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Albania Proper.) In the future I shall attempt research connecting culture, hierarchy structure, as well as symbols, and will post in this thread my findings.
2. Provide proof or counterexample for your statement that: there was no ethnic continuum (ie: gene glow connection, whichever way) during 2000-1000BC between Western Anatolia and Balkans, including but not limited to, proto-Italic, proto-Greek, proto-Albanian, as well, if I might dare Triballi and Illyri Propi Dicti. In this regard I do not have to do any further research, I believe the gene pool in the Balkans, along with the historical context speaks for itself.

@Yetos

That is just my belief, don't have concrete evidence as of yet. However the die has been cast, and if we get our hands and test more ancient DNA samples, that data alone will be enough to prove or disprove my hypothesis.



=============================================

Edit for clarity: 
I am not implying there is strong evidence for my hypothesis. I am implying there is circumstantial evidence. What should be stressed is, that so far there is no definite proof to the contrary, nor reason to believe so, outside of historical dogma and status quo, and as such, the contrary should not dully be assumed factual. Note: After obtaining the phonetic key, I can understand 3-4/6 personal pronouns from Luwian based on *Current Albanian,* and what is really peculiar is that they have Dare - To Give - Similar to Italian Dare - Albanian Dhash - Russian - Serbo - Croatian - Davav - Davaj. As well as they have a verb ip-ye, but since its hieroglyphic Luwian, it could also be the case that its reading would have yielded ye-ip, also meaning to give, Current Albanian JEP (to give). (What a coincidence, amIrite?) Albanian: Une (ty) ta jap. I give you. (with you implied within the verb, Ai (mua) ma dha . He gave me (with me implied withing the verb). 

Now what is interesting is that it is the same action, in today IE , whether you give someone, or someone gives you. Its "give". But in Luwian it seems, based on what I have read, that was not the case. Meaning, depending if giving, or having gotten something, the very verb is different. Usually, the pronouns (mua) /(ty); (to me) /(to you) are implied within the verb with a suffix, but certain verbs *completely change their root. To give.... seems to be one of them, in essence when implying the context weather you give, recieve(?).*Someone help me with the rigorousness of the logic here, since I might be completely off. 

Further note on above point. Considering the societies in Bronze Age Anatolia were miners of gold out of Electroneum from the rivers, as well as traders, this could explain their base in Dardania. Such linages of E-V13 people could be the rumored E-V13: Rhaetian in the Austrian Alps, as well as Goth in Daskalogen (this is another topic that deserves its own thread) , as well as Corwnwall in England, and Minoan Crete...

Anyone know what Ilium, Turkey; Tirol, Austria; Daskalogen, Sweeden; Cornwall, England; and Minoan Crete have in common? Hmm... Pb... Au... Ag and that sort of thing. Not sure how Galicia, Spain fits here, since I am not aware about their metal riches but it is worth exploring.

Caravans/ships connecting the abovementioned ancient world could have existed, based on newly adopted technologies such as farming, smithing, herding in a menlting pot on the Crescent ~>4000 Years ago. And with the fall of the system around 3.3k BP, such lines might have vanished for hundreds of years, creating local pools of genetically peculiar population, that were later integrated in other societies. Would explain E-V13 through the whole EU for one. Not sure what else it could explain.

Edit 5: Collapsed points 3 and 4 into 1.

tarāwi(ya)- 'hand over, deliver'Pret3Sg ta-ra-a-u-i-it-ta: 54 ii 36 (+ pari).Imv3Sg da-ra-u-id-du: 45 ii 25.da-ra-ú-id-du: 45 ii 26e.[da]-ra-u-i-id-du: 48 ii 21.

Ta dha (AL) He gave you (EN) : with dha being a past perfect (?,haven't done grammar in 10 years) for for the verb gave, with the form of its root implying the pronouns (AL:ty) (EN:to you). In essence Ai ty ta dha. He to you gave. However, we know in Luwian the verb goes first, meaning first the action and then object, with subject implied on the verb through the root, or suffix. In essence rendering "He to you gave" to something akin to " Gave/Giveth*** (with the variant(although completely different root) in the verb implying the pronoun to you, subject). In essence, modern Albanian version based on that word order Ta-dha(subject relation signifier as prefix + verb root). I would not be surprised if we even find hieroglyphs with versions of same meaning, to give, but with the form Dha-ti Dha-ty. Meaning, with the subject relation signifier as a suffix instead of as a prefix. Slavic:Ti Davav(dadov?) / Davav(dadov)-ti. Italian: Ti o datto / Ho datto-a-te.

Another interesting, and intriguing speculation: If anyone searches for a hieroglyph of a Horned Cow (or are those ears LMAO)... It has been deciphered using bi-lingual inscriptions between Luwian (proto-Pyrgian) and Phoenician that phonetically it sounds like Ka, Kah. Does it look peculiar just to me?

_Frequency

Source:_ https://translate.google.com/?um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#sq/en/ka

there are
ka


there is
ka


Noun

ox
dem, ka, buall


bullock
ka


neat
dem, lopë, ka









For my fellow Albanophones in this forum with knowledge of linguistics, if anyone wants to contribute to the topic here are some research materials:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~j...ian%20case.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2331750...n_tab_contents
https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf PG 221 Tarawi example given above.
https://www.academia.edu/12302125/Hi...anian_language - Nevermind this guys' misleading, agenda driven title, mind his provided lexicon.

And finally where I first noticed I could recognize Luwian pronouns, and verbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc 19:47 When my lightbulb lit. I think it helped me the fact that I know both Gheg and Tosk strains of Albanian, since JEP (TOSK) EIP / EJPI (Gheg).

Edit4. Also of interest: C(k)apere - Luwian, Anatolian IE: To take. Modern Italian: Capisco - I understand/To Grasp. Modern Albanian: Kap - Grab, Grasp.
Guess what the hieroglyph looks like? Like an extended hand.... 26:15 In the video provided above, since some people like to believe their eyes and academic sources. Those I provide... unlike the above naysayers.


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...vi_CAPERE2.jpg
*etermination in the Anatolian Hieroglyphic Script of the Empire and Transitional Period*
*Dr. Annick Payne

*
*Published Online*: 2017-12-01 | *DOI:* https://doi.org/10.1515/aofo-2017-0019

https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/aof...17-0019_59.jpg


Language ain't about sounds... or letters, or hieroglyphs, or pictograms, or words. Language is a function of meaning, only broken into the above-mentioned "human constructs" out of necessity and progeny.

================================================== ================================================

PS: Infamy among the craven, only adds to my self worth and honor. So keep downvoting out of spite and envy.

Yet I call unto you, to step out of ignorance, and acknowledge what is in front of your face.
Are you going to deny light ad memento mori too? I doubt it...

----------


## Archetype0ne

"*taræuntiti(ya)- (kind of bread)Only in Hitt. GSg taræuntitiyaš at XII 16 i 16*; XX 12,3*.8. Asper Starke, StBoT 31.186f, -iya- adj. < *taræuntit-, but lattermay be directly < taræunt-, not *taræunti(ya)-." pg 212

Asking my fellow Albos what Tërhan means for the Gegs, or Tranana means for the Tosks?

This Map makes so much sense according to my theory. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Satem_map.png




================================================== ======
"āppa 'back; again' (preverb)a-ap-pa: 35,4; 39 iii 8; 48 iii 12*; 54 ii 12.39*.iii 6.23.38; 65 iii14; 95,9; IX 31 ii 25; KBo XXIX 6 Vo 15.ap-pa(?): KBo IV 11,51;
VIII 17,2. " --pg 20. 

Gegnisht - Oppet, Apet. alternative per prape, perseri ne Toskerisht?
================================================== ======
"āra/i- 'time'ASg a-ri-in: 133 ii 29; 138,2e.a-a-ri-in: 15 ii(!) 4; KBo IX 141 iv 14.D-LSg a-a-ri-i: KBo IX 141 i 15.AbI a-a-ra-ti: KBo IX 143 iii(!) 14.a-ra-a-ti: 16 i 12; 43 ii 39*.Morpurgo-Davies, Gs Cowgill 21831. The incomplete exx. at 8i 9, 36,7, and 68,6 may belong here or to the verb ariya-." --pg 24.



Ora? Hour? Mythological fairies dealing with time. Arrija? Mberrija? Arrive?
================================================== ======
"A)æūppa- '?'N-ASg æu-u-up-pa-an-za: KBo XXIX 56,8.D-LSg æu-u-up-pí: XXV 39 iv 14.GenAdjN-ASgNt æu-u-up-pa-aš-ša-an: 88 iii 3*; 89,6*.Grammatical analysis of all three forms and combination intoone paradigm by no means certain! Cf. also perh. 133 iv13*." --pg 73.


E, u hupa asaj ane.

A e houpi?

A u pa Anza? - Might be name.

Edited to provide note: It seems instead of having punctuation marks, Luwians might have used A, E at the beginning of sentences to imply the intention of the sentence, ie: weather a question, or a statement.
If my above conjecture has any basis on reality, we would expect "O!", to potentially imply orders or make a call, in Albanian (Kallzore). Further research is needed... yet the avenue of speculation could prove fruitful.
================================================== ===========================
https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/Melchert/LUVLEX.pdf

CUNEIFORM LUVIAN LEXICON H. CRAIG MELCHERT 2001

----------


## Yetos

> I will not comment on your first two paragraphs, as I believe we have a disagreement on a conceptual level. Anatolian implies region. IE implies language. Anatolian IE, implies the IE languages spoken in Anatolia.


Archetype

Plz Man 

*Anatolian is a Family of IE languages,
*
*IS A FAMILY OF LANGUAGES

Luwian from Hettit distance
might be same as Dutch from Deutsch or Scands or Gothic*
or *as a S Slavic language from Polish or Czech or Slovak,
*for example how much is Serbian or Croatian from Polish or Slovakian?
the max distance is S Slavic from Russian or Lithuanian
that is the distance among Luwian with Hettite

To Understand
Luwian is not hettite
BUT
Luwian is a daughter of Anatolian PIE 
Same Hettite
we can say that both are a kind of Anatolian PIE dialect
before they evolute

Notice 
today Dutch is not Deutsch neither Austrian
BUT THEY ALL ONCE SPRUNG FROM PROTO_GERMANIC LANGUAGES.


for you the link bellow

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages*

IT SAYS
''The *Anatolian languages are an extinctfamily of Indo-European languages that were spoken in Asia Minor (ancient Anatolia), the best attested of them being the Hittite language.''
*'how do you connect Albanian a vivid and spoken language with the extinct ones'
*or do you believe that Albanian is connected with Hettite?*
since you connect it with Luwian, and Luwian is same family with Hettite,




*PART 2*

*ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

PIE *'g
Greek  g
Brygian g
Celtic g
Albanian  ð, d

PIE *gw
Brygian b
Greek b d
Albanian g, z

PIE *gwh 
Brygian g
Greek kh
Albanian g 

*

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## Archetype0ne

Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.

----------


## Yetos

> Whatever bro... When you learn Albanian come and we can have a coffee. You do not speak my language, literally, nor figuratively.


Archetype

Look at this

*PART 2*

*ALBANIAN LANGUAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRYGIAN GREEK AND CELTIC LANGUAGES.
UNDERSTAND THAT. IS a LANGUAGE OF ITS OWN.

PIE *'g
Greek g
Brygian g
Celtic g
Albanian ð, d

PIE *gw
Brygian b
Greek b d
Albanian g, z

PIE *gwh 
Brygian g
Greek kh
Albanian g 
*

BUT
ALBANIAN
GREEK
BRYGIAN
etc

*THEY ARE IE,
so words with no aspirations, No changing
ARE JUST THE SAME


notice this

the word is Door in English
from PIE dhwer

Albanian Dera Dere keep the D
Netherlands Duer
ProtoGermanic Durz
PErsian Dar
Lithuanian Durys
All keep the D

But Greek Θυρα !!!! no D
But Latin Foris !!!!! no D

But All is IE 
but languages different evolution


As for the coffee
thank you man for invitation
that would be wonderfull


*the most easy to read is Grimm's law,
how PIE evolute to proto-Germanic,
Understanding that I am sure you will find on how your language evolute from PIE.
and believe me you will feel great, and refreshed, and releafed,
cause in Linguistic is easy to make mistakes.
I my shelf, I am used to catch my shelf inside a linguistic trap,
these laws will help, 

for example why all Germanic have *F* for word foot or fart etc
but all others have* P* 
Greek Pous-Podos
Latin Pes
Albanian shPute
Hettite Pata

that observation is also a linguistic Law, called Grimm's 
not of my own.

*thank you if you read my post*

----------


## Johane Derite

Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances. 

We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "*B*u*k*ë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.

Compare the Phrygian "*B*e*k*os" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.

The Ancient Greek φώγω (*ph*ṓ*g*ō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...

----------


## Johane Derite

> Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances. 
> 
> We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "*B*u*k*ë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.
> 
> Compare the Phrygian "*B*e*k*os" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.
> 
> The Ancient Greek φώγω (*ph*ṓ*g*ō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...



Also, Macedonian seems to have had a phonological feature that marks it as quite different from Greek dialects. 

This is the correspondence of a sound written with B, to Ph in Greek. 

Crossland says that this change puts Macedonian closer in phonology to Illyrian and Thracian than to Greek.

(R. A. Crossland, "The Language of the Macedonians", Cambridge Ancient History III, 1 (1982) 843-47.)

Important to note the Albanian has this phonological feature today also.

----------


## Yetos

> Actually, Brygian and Macedonian phonology is more similar to Albanian in many instances. 
> 
> We have the famous example of the Albanian word for bread: "*B*u*k*ë" from Proto-Indo-European *bʰōg 'to roast, to bake'.
> 
> Compare the Phrygian "*B*e*k*os" (also meaning Bread) in the famous Pharoah story from Herodotus.
> 
> The Ancient Greek φώγω (*ph*ṓ*g*ō, “roast”, verb) shows quite a different development...


hmm

*Interesting, I will put +1 fame for that tough observation, truth
*Now plz explain us how PIE *bh to B and *h3 or *g to K
in Albanian language,under which IE linguistic law,

There is a chance that in Proto-Greek so in Makedonian to be _Βωγω
_*But the PIE might be Bheh3g not bʰōg


**But 
if you can not prove under which law PIE *Bh turns to B as also the rest *h3 *g or *'g
then word Buke for bread maybe is not Albanian, it could be a loan,*  :Thinking:   :Thinking: 

for example the English bag from PIE *bhak how should be in Albanian, 

I leave that to you to find out.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Te bekofte Zoti o Yetos, se ja ke fut kot e ke nevojë.*

Edited to note something meaningful: "Blessed be the Lord, O Yet, that thou hast gone in vain, and needest." - That is the google translate rendition of my colloquial Albanian* phrase to Yetos above. Even a machine such as Googles system can decipher the deeper meaning conveyed by the sentence, as opposed to the modern colloquial English rendition of the very same sentence "God bless you Yetos, cause you are full of crap, and you need it."

If a machine notices such features, let him who has eyes also notice.



===============================================

(˚)æuta- 'haste, alacrity'NSg ˚*æu-u-ta-aš*: XXIII 1 iv 20.21.ASg æu-u-ta-an: 92 Ro 27.30.Base of æutarla- 'slave, servant'. See Eichner, Or 52.57ff, andalso Starke, StBoT 31.362ff, but æūta is merely collectiveplural to the anim. stem! " --pg 78

Might be related to AL for huti. Eg. Në huti e siper. Also "*hutuar*" in Albanian means mad. The root of the word could stem from "Hutohu!" might denominate the equivalent to what is in western languages "(Go)Berzerk! " Note: Go, is implied by the mode the verb is found in "hutohu". In essence Hutohu would mean (You) (Go) Berzerk + suffix in order to create a verb. The verb would be used in modern Albanian with a (!) because of its mode. Some dialects render this word as "*huteja*". Ho-u-ta-u.
===============================================
"*æuišti*- 'cry of (birth)pain' (?)NSg æu-u-i-iš-ti-iš: 87,6.NPl æu-iš-ti-in-zi: 102 iv 8*; 103 iii 8; KBo VIII 130 iii 6*.æu-u-iš-ti-in-zi: 143,8; 145 ii 1*.æu-u-i-iš-ti-in-zi: 108,4.[æu-u-i]š-te-in-zi: XVII 15 ii 6* (error for acc.!)APl æu-u-iš-ti-in-za: 145 ii 14." --pg 83

Might be related to AL "*hujdi*". U be hujdi n mejdan. Xhullurdi could be related also. Albanian for chaos, panic.
===============================================
"*īkkunānt*(i)- '?' (to preceding, but sense unclear)ASg ik-ku-na-a-an-ti-en: 35,3." --pg 86

Might be related to Albanian *kunat*. Can't recall which family member it was.
===============================================
**īlæā(i)*- 'wash'Pres1Sg el-æa-ú-i: KBo XXIX 49 Ro 3.4.Pres3Sg il-æa-ti: XXVII 26,6 (+ -ti).Pret1Sg e-el-æa-a-æa: 93 Ro(!) 8.9*.Imv3Sg e-el-æa-a-du: 39 ii 14 (+ -ti).Meaning with Meriggi, WZKM 53.223, and Athenaeum 35.62.Cf. also 39 iii 11*. " --pg87

Might be related to AL, laj, wash.

"*ililæā*- 'wash (off)'Pres3Sg i-li-il-æa-a-i: 21 Vo 30 (+ -ti).[i-li-i]l-æ[a]-i: XXXII 9 Ro 16* (+ -ti).[i-l]i-el-æa-a-i: 62,2* (+ -ti).Imv3Pl e-li-el-æa-a-an-du: 39 ii 10.26 (both + -mmaš as refl.). e-li-el-æa-an-du: 39 ii 4. -pg 87. Note: Not a duplicate.

Here it should be noted the the main difference between the above examples is the genitive prefix in Albanian of "i". In this case implying the gender of the subject being washed, through the pre-fix. Here the initial "i" implies the gender of the subject of the verb is masculine, as opposed to the prefix used for feminine subjects, "e". eg: *I laj*, E lan. 

===============================================
"imma 'indeed'*im-ma*: 133 iii 10.11; KBo IV 11,50.51; XIII 261,3.Asseverative particle = Hitt. imma and HLuv.* i-ma* 'idem'." --pg 88.

Might be connected to Albanian *nime*n, ni (singular) men(mind), meaning something aking to asuredly/surely in English. eg: " Me nimen... "

===============================================

Need I go scower the other 200 pages of the lexicon, to provide enough proof to you Yetos? Anyways, why do you care so dearly about Albanian mate? xD


Or Ygorcs for that matter... If he is gong to claim to me now that Albanian has no connection to *Bronze Age* Anatolian IE he better have some good proof and sources...

Edit: Adding more for fun ; ).

================================================== ===========================

"i*ræatta*- 'circle'DSg ir-æa-a-at-t[i]: IBoT II 19,5.ir-æa-at-ti: XXV 32 + XXVII 70 ii 16.49.iii 12.APl ir-æa-at-ta-an-za: XX 74 vi 9. " --pg 91

Might be related to Albanian: *Rreth* , *Rrota*; Italian: Ruota. Someone from some mountainous village would easily sound like he is saying Roaeta in his own dialect. Coincidentally such a person would call his belt (circular) *Rreyp*. 

================================================== ===========================

"*lāla/i*- 'tongue; gossip'NSg EME-iš: 21 Ro 26.27.Vo 21*.24.; 28 i 6; 29 i 4*; 49 iv 8; 77 ii 3;XXXII 9 Ro 9; KBo XXIX 7,4; XXIX 52,3.la-li-iš: KBo XXIX 38 Vo 18(?).ASg la-a-li-in: XXV 37 ii 38(?).(UZU)EME-in: 21 Vo 31; 23,2*; 28 i 10; 29 i 8*.14*; 43 ii 30.iii37; 45 iii 17.19.25; 59 ii 5*.8; 70 ii 5; 77 iii 1; XXXII 8+5iii 14.19; KBo VII 68 ii 17; XXIX 5,4*; XXIX 46,3.EME-en: KBo XXII 254 Ro 7*.9.EME-an(!): 58 iii 11.NPl EME.MEŠ-in-zi: 49 iv 1.2.EME-in-[zi]: 59 ii 8*.AbIn EME-ti: 21 Vo 32*.34; 23,3; 24,4*; 26,8; 48 iii 6; 51 iii 5; 58,5;76,2; KBo XXIX 21,2; XXX 190 iii 3.GenAdjDLa-la-aš-ši-: KBo IV 13 i 5.Unclear EME-ma at 54 ii 5: ptc. of denom. verb?? Cf. perh.lāliya. Although reading lāla/i- for 'tongue' is virtuallycertain, the contexts do not guarantee that the exx. lališ andlālin belong here. " --pg122 

Might be related to Albanian *llapa* (toungue), *llaf/llafi* (word).

=========================================

"*mallit*- 'honey'N-ASg ma-al-li: 39 ii 12.16.28*.ma-al--i-: XXXII 8+5 iii 27.D-LSg LÀL-i: 69,10 (// Ì-i).133AbIn ma-al-li-i-ta-a-ti: 39 ii 3*.11.ma-al-li-ta-a-ti: 39 ii 27.iii 11* (contra DLL 33, StBoT 30.114).Contra Starke, StBoT 31.192f, regular reflex of CA *mélid-,"lenited" from *mélit-. Hitt. militt- (thus w/Starke) hasundone lenition, as usual." --pg 132.

Might be related to Albanian *mjalt* (honey), but also Albanian "*mall*": 


noun
*commodity* mall, produkt, artikull

*goods* mall, pronë, ngarkesë, gjëra të nevojshme, sende personale

*longing* dëshirë e madhe, mall, përgjërim, dëshirim, gllënjkë

*yearning* mall, dëshirë e zjarrtë

*nostalgia* nostalgji, mall, mall për të kaluarën

================================================

"*æūæa*- 'grandfather'AbIn æu-u-æa-ti: KBo IX 141 i 3.For correct reading see Starke, StBoT 30.126. Cf. for form withsingle -æ- Lyc. xuga- (regularly < *h2éuh2o- vs. Hitt.æuææa-). " --pg71

Most likely related to Albanian *Gjyshë*, *grandfather*.

Interestingly enough as can be further seen:

"*æuæat(t)alla/*i- '*of one's grandfather, ancestral*'N-APlNt æu-æa--da-al-l[a]: XXXIII 106 ii 61.Luvian, not Hittite, as per Starke, KZ 100.260f & StBoT 31.306,as shown by suffix -alla/i-. Base seen in HLuv. /huhat(i)-/." --pg

The above plural for grandfathers, takes similar ending to some local dialects, *Gjyshallarë* (albeit rare and archaic), alternatively Toskses and Ghegs might use the plural Gjyshër. Similar to how Baba*llare* (of one;s father, ancestral) takes plural in Albanian. 

================================================

*parran* 'before, in front'Postposition: *pár-ra*-an: 21 Ro 17.Vo 32; 53,14*; 54 ii 40.iii 7; 55,10; KBoXXIX 52,7.Preverb: *pár-ra-*a-an: XXV 39 iv 20.Indeterminate: 35,4*; 63,3.= Hitt. pēran, HLuv. pa+ra/i-n(a). " --pg166

*Per-para* (AL) Before(.) In-front(.), Forth(!) (EN) 

Also I remember reading about a positive attribution of "Priam" - as deriving from "courageous" "leader"... will add source once i find it in my bookmarks.
In modern Albanian i Pari - means the First. While* Prijës* means Leader. That's why I bookmarked the source. Till then, I will use the current source I have to legitimize such hypothesis.


"*paræ*(a)- 'drive, chase' (?)Imv3Sg pár-æa-ad-du: XXV 39 iv 10.Istanuvian variant of par(a)- above without deletion of -æ-? " pg 167-8

"*parī* 'forth, away'+ patza-: 54 iii 9.11.+ šā-: KBo XXIX 35,11; XXIX 44 RC 6.+ tarawiya-: 54 ii 35.+ wiši-: 98,13; 110,7 (pa-ri-i).+ ?: 60 iii 2 (parī(y)=ata); 85,2 (parī[ ]); KBo VII 68 ii 18(pari=pa).= HLuv. pa+ra/i, Hitt. parā. Cf. also KBo XXIX 28,12 andparittarwa-. The form pa-a-ri at 133 iv 13 is quite unclear " pg 168

(˚)*tapar-* 'rule, govern'Pres2Sg ta-pár-ši: XXXI 136 iii 3.Pret1Sg ˚t/da-pár-æa: I 1 i 27.65.ii 61.74; XIX 56 i 4; KBo III 6 i 23.ii46.53.Pret3Sg (˚)ta-pa-ar-ta: XIV 4 i 8.11.17; KBo III 4 iii 73.76; XVI 17 iii 31.ta-pár-ta: XIV 17 ii 35.57.Imv3Sg ˚ta-pár-du: I 1 iv 78.Inf ta-pa-ru-na: XIX 29 iv 21.As per Starke, StBoT 31.259, w/refs., 2ary stem < *tapariyaseen in HLuvian and Hitt. borr. taparriya(i)-.

*tap(a)r*amman- 'ruling, governing'N-APl ta-pa-ra-am-ma: IX 34 iii 39.Action noun to preceding. See Starke, StBoT 31.259.

==================================================

Edit to add the sources I mention beforehand:
"Most scholars take the etymology of the name from the Luwian (*Pa-ri-a-mu-a*-, or “*exceptionally courageous*”)[1][2] and was attested as the name of a man from Zazlippa, in Kizzuwatna. A similar form is attested transcribed in Greek as _Paramoas_ near Kaisareia in Cappadocia.[3]

A popular folk etymology derives the name from the Greek verb _priamai,_ meaning 'to buy'. This in turn gives rise to a story of Priam's sister Hesione ransoming his freedom from Heracles, thereby 'buying' him.[4] This story is attested in the Bibliotheca and in other influential mythographical works dated to the first and second centuries AD.[5] These sources should be taken with a grain of salt, however, as they do date to a much later period in antiquity than the first attestations of the name Priamos or Pariya-muwas are found in."

Much corruption, such WOW.


Pa-rim / Pa-rim-i - (AL) for Principle / The Principle
Pa-ra / Pa-rat - (AL) for Money / The Money

Now, which comes first in human development, Principles or money?
Or for that matter what is more important and hence *prim*al ?



My man laying the law above... He had his priorites straight, unlike proto-Greek folk two centuries before him. Righteousness can not be bought, neither courage, neither principle, neither leadership.



But I guess in second century BC, whoever wrote the Bibliotheca from the proto-Greeks, had lost his principles, thinking the ethymology similar to "pari" "money" for... Parim " principle"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam


"King Priam is the Trojan king in Homer's 'The Iliad'. He is a *caring father* and *courageous king*, but he lets Paris, his son, do as he pleases, which results in the fight with the Achaeans. This lesson teaches you all about King Priam's character."

https://study.com/academy/lesson/king-priam-in-the-iliad-characteristics-analysis.html

================================================== ===========


"*pupulā*[ ] 'write'Form? *pu-pu-la-a*-[ ]: KBo XXIX 34 i 15.Cf. HLuv. pu-pu-la- 'write'." --pg 179

Albanian "*pupla*" means feather...


================================================== =

"*puppušša*- 'crush'P3SgM pu-up-pu-uš-ša--ta-ri: VII 38+ iii 13.Starke, StBoT 31.332. Redup. iter. to puwa-. Cf. *pušša-. " pg 179

Albanian* përplasa* means smash.

================================================== ===

*šarra* '(up)on; thereon'Preposition: šar-ra: 14 i 9*; XXXII 8+5 iv 22.Adverb: šar-ra: 124 ii 5.ša-ar-ra: 103 iii 14.Indeterminate: šar-ra: 49 i 4; 65 iii 9; 123 iv 4*; XXXII 13,11.ša-ar-r[a]: 137 Vo 1.Cf. šarri. Formal relationship to šarri and Hitt. šarā notentirely clear " pg 188

*šarri* 'above; up' also 'for'?Adverb: šar-ri: 45 ii 25; 48 ii 19*; IX 34 i 10-11; KBo XXIX 10,8; IBoT99,9-10.Preverb: ša-ar-ri: 88 iii 13.Preposition: šar-ri: VII 53 + XII 58 i 58.59.Postposition: šar-ri: KBo XXIX 16 ii 3.4 (?).= Hitt. šēr

================================================== ====

*tāta/i*- 'father'N/VSg ta-a-ti-iš: 68,16; 95,6; 103 ii 9.16; KBo IX 141 i 19.ASg *ta-a-ti-in:* KBo IX 143 iii(!) 10.D-LSg da-a-ti-i: 107 iii 10; KBo XIII 260 ii 33*(?).*[d]a-a-ti*: KBo XXIX 52,7.NPl *ta-ti-in*-zi: IX 31 ii 30; HT 1 ii 6.= HLuv. ta-ta/i- and Lyc. *tede-. Stem w/"i-motion" assured byHLuv. & deriv. tatalla/i-, pace Starke, KZ 100.254 et aliter


Në emër _t'At'it_, të birit, dhe të shpirtitë të shenjtë.

I *Ati*
Të *Atit*
Të *Atin

**Note again: When we input the above sentence of colloquial Albanian into google translate. We get the following output:
*"In the name of Father, son, and holy spirits. 

Meaning, Google's system can detect the rule for, t'at'it meaning father, rather than other just as viable possibilities such as "of his(tëatitë/tëatija)". As for the translations of the verbs in their respective forms:   Father (His Father) / Father's (Of His Father)/ The Father ( His Father(e)st? beyond my ability to explain in English).
*It should be noted there is no such form as** T'AT'IT* *in Modern Albanian, instead the modern verb collapses to one of the above modes... How google set up a system that can catch that... that is beyond me.*

----------


## Johane Derite

> Also, Macedonian seems to have had a phonological feature that marks it as quite different from Greek dialects. 
> 
> This is the correspondence of a sound written with B, to Ph in Greek. 
> 
> Crossland says that this change puts Macedonian closer in phonology to Illyrian and Thracian than to Greek.
> 
> (R. A. Crossland, "The Language of the Macedonians", Cambridge Ancient History III, 1 (1982) 843-47.)
> 
> Important to note the Albanian has this phonological feature today also.


Here is the full quote:

"The equation (Macedonian) ά*β*ρούτες /(Greek) ό*Φ*ρύες (Skt. *bh*ru- Avestan. *b*r{u)vat-, MIrish. *b*ruad-) shows that the labial sound was the Macedonian reflex of Indo-European **bh*.

The change of the Indo-European voiced aspirates (*bh*, dh, gh) to voiceless aspirates (*Φ* ,θ,χ) was one of the developments which were shared by *all* recognized Greek dialects and which differentiate Greek from other Indo-European languages. 

If a putative Macedonian dialect of prehistoric Greek did not share it, then it would have become differentiated before any other dialect became equally aberrant and it seems unlikely that those who spoke it would thereafter have remained in sufficiently close linguistic contact with those who spoke the other dialects to remain intelligible to them and develop in common the subsequent innovations which are characteristic of Greek as a whole.

On the other hand, if the late prehistoric form of Macedonian had shared the change of voiced aspirates to voiceless it seems improbable that the resulting voiceless phonemes would subsequently have changed back to voiced phonemes generally in Macedonian by the fifth century B.C.The change puts Macedonian closer to Illyrian and Thracian in phonology than to Greek"

R. A. Crossland, 
"The Language of the Macedonians", 
Cambridge Ancient History III, 1 
Pg 846

----------


## Yetos

@ Derite


I wrote about all this here

*https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...omer-and-Koine*

Makedonian Belong to NW Greek dialects,

NW Greek dialects are in area of proto Greek

Epirotes Mekedones Akanarnes etc were closer to Proto-Greek.

to understastand that I give you the sping/welt word

Attic and early koine Φρεαρ frear phrear
In Makedonian that f/ph shoulb be b as we have today in my mountain βρυα βρυασσα = phrear/frear = water spring
that passed in koine also as βρυση Bruse
and changed also in Byzantine Koine B->V
so today ended as Bruse but is pronounced as vrese vrisi

so the evolution still continues.



NOTICE

NW-GREEK Berenika 
Attic Ferenike Pherenike
NW Greek Brua Bruassa
Attic Frear phrear

NW Greek is closer to proto-Greek
and before the Dorian descent and Hesiodos,

a remarkable also is the Aeolian π

The change of Proto-Greek to classical Attic Koine might be due to the pre-IE substranctum, the pelasgians
when NW proto-Greek enter Pelasgian and Mycenean world. meaning after Dorian descent 

the mistake of Thomopoulos if you remember when we discuss about it,

Now prove and find why bheh3g turns to buke in Albanian
under which IE law.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> @ Derite
> 
> 
> I wrote about all this here
> 
> *https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...omer-and-Koine*
> 
> Makedonian Belong to NW Greek dialects,
> 
> ...


When Leka was alive he was a filthy barbaric Macedonian, not following "the greek culture" but meddling with the Persians. Big Yikes. While he was alive, he was resented by the Argos population, google for yourself I am not your tutor. You know what... ask Lekas tutor himself... Aristotle what did he think about him. LMAO

But now... 2300 years later. Leka is Great... and he is greek... such shamelessness. 

No wonder Socrates went this way rather than deal with your forefathers unprincipled BS:

(https://educateinspirechange.org/wp-...6/socrates.jpg)

----------


## Archetype0ne

[QUOTE=Yetos;564378]

................................


Well 
Notice this
Mycenean World





Proto-Greek spoken

.................................


BTW

*the time is not as you provide, (comment:HUMOR ME MATE HOW SO?)*
Myceneans were already in Greece when Hettites enter minor Asia,
*Myceneans are found from 2900 BC in Greece (COMMENT: Your principles are weak. The truth does not guide you in any sense. You state 2900BC for Mycenean Greeks, when in fact the very picture your provide states "1400-1100BC"/ Ku i ke 1500 vjet be shoq?)*and generally we know they stabilize language and culture around 2000 BC

*

................................................
"







*
Btw, even the map your provided is misleading.... Your ancestors lost control of Athens proper, from 900BC onwards, geographically starting where Thebes ends and below. Since there was a political shift/split between Athens proper, and rest of Mycean world (Ill refer to this as Argos now on). Where Athens sided with the Dorians, and as such kept their privileges and titles following "The return of the Heraclidae".

Also, are you implying with that map that Crete was Mycean, *and somehow it makes it Greek(What is Greek 1300BC, even your antecesors named Hellens dont exist yet mate... Do you know who Hellen was? Your historians claim descent there you should know.* Cause I would have a bone to pick regarding that statement too. Yet... this thread is about Dardans of Dardania and Troy, so for the love of God stop going on tangents...

Edited for clarity **

----------


## Lenab

> When Leka was alive he was a filthy barbaric Macedonian, not following "the greek culture" but meddling with the Persians. Big Yikes. While he was alive, he was resented by the Argos population, google for yourself I am not your tutor. You know what... ask Lekas tutor himself... Aristotle what did he think about him. LMAO
> 
> But now... 2300 years later. Leka is Great... and he is greek... such shamelessness. 
> 
> No wonder Socrates went this way rather than deal with your forefathers unprincipled BS:


Meddling with Persians? No one with Macedonian blood whatever Macedonian is was meddling with Persians

----------


## Lenab

[QUOTE=Archetype0ne;564487]


> ................................
>  Myceneans were already in Greece when Hettites enter minor Asia,


Yeah hence the name Greco ( early Minoan haplogroup H later Mycenaean  ) Anatolian ( Hittite ) as if it's not obvious. Also please, Hittitie were in the early days indistinguishable from Pontian Greeks as in the ones from Asia Minor anyway.

This is why haplogroup H in the European sense came from the ancient Greeks or rather Mycenaean.

Both Mycenaean culture flourished in Crete and Cyprus

----------


## Lenab

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.bl...cient-dna.html

The Mycenaeans, unsurprisingly for Indo-European migrant/conquerers of the late Bronze Age, have significant steppe ancestry, but somewhat surprisingly, have about 75%-80% ancestry from pre-Myceneaens of the region who tend to resemble the Minoans.Mycenaean-Minoan-Anatolians are haplogroup J associated with these eastern groups [i.e. early Caucasian and Iranian farmers], rather than the ubiquitous G2 of the earlier farmer populations." There are two J2a1 Minoans (one is J2a1/mtDNA H, and the other one is J2a1d/mtDNA H13a1), one G2a2b2 Minoan (mtDNA U3b3), one J1a Anatolian (mtDNA H) and one J2a1 Mycenaean (mtDNA X2). Two other Mycenaeans are mtDNA X2 with no Y-DNA.

----------


## Sile

> Archetype
> Plz Man 
> *Anatolian is a Family of IE languages,
> *
> *IS A FAMILY OF LANGUAGES
> Luwian from Hettit distance
> might be same as Dutch from Deutsch or Scands or Gothic*
> or *as a S Slavic language from Polish or Czech or Slovak,
> *for example how much is Serbian or Croatian from Polish or Slovakian?
> ...


scholars state
hittite connected with Hattic languages
.
Luwian connected to Hurrian languages
.
all anatolian languages are non-semetic
.
hittite died circa 1200BC
luwian died circa 600BC
.
hittite and Luwian began as separate languages , but towards the end of their existence, the hittites adopted many luwian "words"

----------


## Aspar

> Meddling with Persians? No one with Macedonian blood whatever Macedonian is was meddling with Persians


You seem either like a very big ***** or like someone who has a lot of free time in his hands.
You don't have to be a history professor, but with just a little bit of research on the net, you will find that Alexander the Great initiated the marriage of thousands of his soldiers with Persian princesses.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Becoming King in Afghanistan and having a bunch of concubines, while singing praise to Zoroaster in foreign rituals certainly implies "*meddling*" with foreign culture. Cant blame those generals tbh... it must have been lit.




Oh... and Leka claimed to be Amon Ra at some point? Behold! A God! Certainly Greeks would have been enraged at such brash claims.

I will find the letter of Aristotle to Alexander regarding him forsaking Greek culture, and indulging in the east...



In the meanwhile the below exchange could prove of value. It was recorded in Arabic by the Arabs in Alexandria sometime ~900 ~1000 AD.

" The _Secret of Secrets_ includes a purported exchange of letters between Aristotle and Alexander. According to Arabic manuscripts probably conveying text written before 987, Alexander wrote to Aristotle:O my excellent preceptor and just minister, I inform you that I have found in the land of Persia men possessing sound judgement and powerful understanding, who are ambitious of bearing rule. Hence I have decided to put them all to death. What is your opinion in this matter? [1]Aristotle responded:It is no use putting to death the men you have conquered; for their land will, by the laws of nature, breed another generation which will be similar. The character of these men is determined by the nature of the air of their country and the waters they habitually drink. The best course for you is to accept them as they are, and to seek to accommodate them to your concepts by winning them over through kindness. [2]
"



According to the _Secret of Secrets_, Alexander followed Aristotle’s advice. The Persians hence became Alexander’s most loyal subjects. The _Secret of Secrets_ credits Aristotle for Alexander’s famous conquests:By following his {Aristotle’s} good advice and obeying his commands, Alexander achieved his famous conquests of cities and countries, and ruled supreme in the regions of the earth far and wide, Arabs as well as Persians coming under his sway; nor did he {Alexander} ever oppose him {Aristotle} in word or deed. [3]



Aristotle’s specific reason for Alexander accommodating the Persian elite draws upon Galenic-Hippocratic technical knowledge. In his treatise _On Airs, Waters, and Places_, Hippocrates described the importance of a place’s airs and waters in shaping the characters of persons. In the mid-ninth century, Hunayn ibn Ishaq translated Hippocrates’ treatise into Arabic. Hunayn also wrote a commentary on it. Hunayn’s nephew Hubaysh translated into Arabic Galen’s commentary on Hippocrates’ treatise.[5] Aristotle’s advice on the Persian elites was based upon Greek knowledge known in Arabic by the mid-ninth century. "

https://www.purplemotes.net/2013/10/13/aristotle-advice-alexander-persia/

[1] _Kitab sirr al-asrar_ (_The Book of the Secret of Secrets_), from Arabic trans. Ali (1920) p. 177. In Latin translation _Kitab sirr al-asrar_ was known as _Secretum Secretorum_ or S_ecreta Secretorum_. On dating the letters before 987, see Manzalaoui (1974) p. 158. The prologue of _Kitab sirr al-asrar_ describes the work as Yahya ibn al-Batriq‘s translation from Greek into Syriac and then into Arabic. Al-Batriq worked from 796 to 806. However, the Arabic style does not appear to be that of al-Batriq. Id. p. 159. Id., pp. 162-6, 193, suggest that the letters originated as Hellenistic pseudo-Aristotelian epistles and were translated into Arabic during the Umayyad caliphate (661-750).
[2] Id. trans. Manzalaoui (1974) p. 195. Apparently less literal but similar is the translation of Ali (1920) p. 177.
[3] Id. trans. Ali (1920) pp. 176-7.
[5] Manzalaoui (1974) pp. 194-5, 215-6. Reference to Hippocrates’ _On Airs, Waters, and Places_ in the late-ninth-century _Tarikh_ of Ya’qilbi seems to have come from a translation other than Hunayn’s. Id. pp. 215-6. If Aristotle’s advice to Alexander was written earlier than Hunayn’s translation of _On Airs, Waters, and Place_s (mid-ninth century), and Aristotle’s advice was not translated from a Greek source, then apparently _On Airs, Waters, and Places_ was known in Arabic prior to Hunayn’s translation of it.

Note: regarding Secret of Secrets, since you have such charlatans like Osho pumping out similar books to their zombie evangelists:
*Secret of Secrets: An interpretative translation by Shaykh Tosun Bayrak of Sirr al-Asrar by Hadrat Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (1077-1166AD), considered by many to be one of the greatest saints of Islam and the eponymous founder of the Qadiriyya order. This book, appearing in English for the first time, contains the very essence of Sufism*

----------


## Johane Derite

> Here is the full quote:
> 
> "The equation (Macedonian) ά*β*ρούτες /(Greek) ό*Φ*ρύες (Skt. *bh*ru- Avestan. *b*r{u)vat-, MIrish. *b*ruad-) shows that the labial sound was the Macedonian reflex of Indo-European **bh*.
> 
> The change of the Indo-European voiced aspirates (*bh*, dh, gh) to voiceless aspirates (*Φ* ,θ,χ) was one of the developments which were shared by *all* recognized Greek dialects and which differentiate Greek from other Indo-European languages. 
> 
> If a putative Macedonian dialect of prehistoric Greek did not share it, then it would have become differentiated before any other dialect became equally aberrant and it seems unlikely that those who spoke it would thereafter have remained in sufficiently close linguistic contact with those who spoke the other dialects to remain intelligible to them and develop in common the subsequent innovations which are characteristic of Greek as a whole.
> 
> On the other hand, if the late prehistoric form of Macedonian had shared the change of voiced aspirates to voiceless it seems improbable that the resulting voiceless phonemes would subsequently have changed back to voiced phonemes generally in Macedonian by the fifth century B.C.The change puts Macedonian closer to Illyrian and Thracian in phonology than to Greek"
> ...



More similarities between Ancient Macedonian and Albanian:




Ancient Macedonian. "Plakoni" ("council of elders")

Albanian. "Plak" ("old man")
Albanian. "Plakë" ("old woman")
Albanian. "Plakë" (adj. "old" of persons)
Albanian. "Pleq" ("old people")
Albanian. "Pleqni" ("old folk, old age in general")
Albanian. "[me] Pleqnu" ("[to] resolve dispute, settle affairs between parties")
Albanian. "Pleqësi" ("council of village elders")


This is Orel's opinion on the etymology:

----------


## Yetos

To archetypeOne

Just look this,

*The proto-Greek world
*

Nothing more,

----------


## Yetos

To Derite,

I do not care about your scholars,

I SAY
*prove word Buke = bread in Albanian follows the IE laws for Albanian from PIE *bheh3eg
and is not a loan

Notice Slavic Pekara (bread maker) has the same root* **bheh3eg with Brygian bekos
and English Baker has the same root* **bheh3eg**but it is Slavic Pekar and English Baker
How* **bheh3eg should be in Albanian?*
ALBANIZATION OF AN AREA MEANS A LOT OF LOANS FROM PREVIOUS LANGUAGE,
SO, CAN YOU DISTINGUISH THE PURE ALBANIAN FROM THE LOANS?


TODAY WE KNOW THAT COMPUTER IS ENGLISH WORD,
BUT 

*COMPUTER IS ENGLISH BUT A LOAN FROM LATIN COMPUTARE
IN GREEK IS SPELLED ΚΟΜΠΙΟΥΤΕΡ a Loan from English
IN ALBANIAN IS KOMPJUTER a loan from English

AFTER 3000 Years 
CAN YOU DISTINGUISH THE ORIGINAL FROM THE LOAN?


Part 2

*Greek language has 
a proto-spoken era,

and with Mycenean 

an Archaic Era
a Classical era 
the Koine
the evolution of koine (Alexandrine, Bible's koine)
The Rum or Byzantine Koine
the Modern Neo-Greek

*in modern Neo-Greek the loans % are so many* 
that easily a Neo-Greek speaker 
may Believe that Turkish are Greek
that Italian are Greek
that Albanian are Greek
that Slavic are Greek 
etc*

*my daughter is not eating πρωινο (morning food) any more
she is eating breakfast
she is not wearing Αθλητικα or πανινα (Athletic shoes and cloth/textile shoes)
she is wearing Star-akia (textile shoes known as All star converse)


BTW 
*Pelekas*, Πελεκας-πε-λευκος in *Proto Greek* is the white, toponymes exists today in Makedonia 
that pe- is lost in classiacal Greek remaining λευκος and Πωλιος Polios Poulios meaning, fade, white-blonde, pale
but was kept in 
*Πελε*-κανος Pelican
*Πελ*-αργος stork.

*
Part 3

And I wonder*
Why you and Archetype one have such emone, such pation to campare with Greek?
and for Example with English
*proto-Greek* pelekas Peleukos
*Greek* Polios
*English* Pale 

what does that mean? that Greek and English were neighbours once?

----------


## Johane Derite

> More similarities between Ancient Macedonian and Albanian:



Also this is quite interesting and important:




Especially when we consider the account of Rose Wilder Lane's travel through Albania in 1920, in which she documented the oral history of Albanian highlanders, 
and in which an illiterate old man named the entire Argaed Dyanasty off from oral history alone (and talked about the Black Sea flooding 80 years before scientists presented it as a 
hypothesis).


The interesting thing here is that the old man referred to the third king in the Argaed Dynasty (Tyrimmas) as "Trimi", 70 years before linguist Stuart E. Mann noted the connection:







Here is the full thread about Rose Wilder Lane's journey below:






LINK: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...se+wilder+lane

----------


## Johane Derite

Also important to note: Stuart E. Mann is not "our" scholar. He is a serious British scientist/linguist with 51 works in 202 publications in 8 languages. 
His specializations were Albanian, Armenian, Czech, and Indo-European in general.


For example: 

*Publications (selection)*An Indo-European comparative dictionary. Hamburg 1987An Albanian historical grammar. Hamburg 1977Czech historical grammar. Hamburg 1977

----------


## Yetos

*@ Derite 

No comment,

Tyrimm-as

The ending is typical Makedonikon 

perdik-as
Amynt-as
Tyrimm-as
etc

hmm 
maybe Makedonians were Baltic ones*  :Thinking: *
you see Balts have -as*  :Cool V: *

Arlausk-as
Arvynt-as
Saroun-as
Raimond-as


hm
SO DERITE TELL US WHY?
THAT ENDING -as IS FOUND 
IN MAKEDONIAN
IN THRACIAN, 
IN BALTIC
WHY SHOULD BE ILLYRIAN accusative ? 
*Gush what an 'evidence' you provide us  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 
Baltic -as might be *o turning to -a in Illyrian accusative !!!!!

*Mycenean names*
*Αχιλλε-ας
Οδυσσε-ας
Νεστορ-ας*
*WERE MYCENEANS ILLYRIAN ACCUSATIVE TOO ????*  :Petrified:   :Petrified: *


DERITE,
UNTIL NOW YOU TELL US NOTHING,



or 
*

----------


## blevins13

Paris real name was Alexander......is there any relation between Macedonians and Trojans???


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Johane Derite

The Ancient Macedonians are mentioned as having come from Illyria by ancient authors:

----------


## phoenix

> Paris real name was Alexander......is there any relation between Macedonians and Trojans???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum


Hittites did mention certain king of Wilusa named Alaksandu(Alexander), and did mention the patreon God of Wilusa was Appaliuna (Apollo).

----------


## phoenix

Also, it might be that the Dardanians were a Western Anatolian migrants in the Balkans, mixing with both the Illyrians and Thracians. There is a certain non Illyrian non Thracian element among the Dardanians.

----------


## Yetos

@ Derite

Before Albanians in today Albania 

were Brygians nieghbours of Makedonians and Proto-Greeks
were Illyrians coming from Noricum today Austria. Celto-Germanic
came Greeks through colonization look at Apollonia Dyrrachion
came Colchnians to Ulchini
came Romans
came Dacians to Germidava

All of them today exist in Albania
But as Simo Simeonis marks about demographics of Dyrrachium
and as Linguists say,
Albanian language came last,
After all the above
*and assimilate them with Albanization 

so even if there was a possible connection of Makedonians with some Illyrians
surely those Illyrians did NOT spoke Albanian, 



*

----------


## Sile

> @ Derite
> 
> Before Albanians in today Albania 
> 
> were Brygians nieghbours of Makedonians and Proto-Greeks
> were Illyrians coming from Noricum today Austria. Celto-Germanic
> came Greeks through colonization look at Apollonia Dyrrachion
> came Colchnians to Ulchini
> came Romans
> ...


Check the net for....*Mycenean hillforts in Dalmatia early iron-age* .............it would seem that dalmatians if there at that time was people from Cetina culture via Vucedol culture ...or....as some scholars stae , the Delmatae of bronzae-age south austria/slovenia migrated southduring the celtic incursion of the illyrian in the eastern alps...Halstatt culture times

also check
Liburnian Necropolis in Nadin ( north Dalmatian ) 45 skeletons to be looked at

----------


## Archetype0ne

> @ Derite
> 
> Before Albanians in today Albania 
> 
> were Brygians nieghbours of Makedonians and Proto-Greeks
> were Illyrians coming from Noricum today Austria. Celto-Germanic
> came Greeks through colonization look at Apollonia Dyrrachion
> came Colchnians to Ulchini
> came Romans
> ...


 Your Grandfathers spoke Albanian you piece of manure, if you didn't come from Tartarus that is... Thyej qafen. Your language got assimilated with manure.So better keep Albanians out of your mouth, literally. 

"*tā- 'step; arrive*'Pres3Sg ta-a-i: KBo XXIX 31 iv 6 (?).Pret3Sg ta-at-ta: 133 ii 27.da-a-ad-da: 88 ii 2.Pres2PlM da-a-ad-du-wa-ar: IX 31 ii 26 (+ -tar & -ta!).See Morpurgo-Davies, Gs Cowgill 218f" 

(AL)T-ardh (EN) (Those who)'Came

taææara- '?'NPl taæ-æa-ra-an-zi: 145 ii 2*; 143,10*.APl taæ-æa-ra-an-za: 144,5; XVII 15 ii 8e. 

(˚)taæušiya- 'keep silent/quiet' (?)Pret1Sg (˚)ta-æu-ši-ya-aæ-æa: I 4 + (KBo III 6) iii 18.21*.da-æu-ši-ya-aæ-æa: I 6 iii 9.11.˚da-æu-u-ši-ya-a-aæ-æa: XIX 67 ii 8e.12*.Also in Hittitized tuæušiya(i)-. Cf. Oettinger, Stammbildung

Qetësia - Quiet, Silent

tappa- 'spit (on)' (?)Pret3Sg *tap-pa-a-at-ta*: 43 ii 29.iii 36; XXVII 26,8*(?); XXXII 6,5.tap-pa-at-ta: 8 i 6*e(?); 29 i 13*; 45 iii 24; 59 ii 4*; 81,3*.10*;KBo XXIX 19,4.tap-pa-ad-da: 46 iv 11.[t]a-ap-pa-at-ta: 8 i 7*(?).Imv3Sg tap-pa-ad-du: 28 i 9*.Cf. perh. also [ ]x()tapātta at KBo XIX 155,9, but this wordmay be incomplete. 

Eg of sentence:"(AL)*T-pshty* faren e fisin.

*tātar*iyamman- *'curse'*N-ASg da-a-ta-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 31 Vo 26; XXXII 9 Ro 13*.da-a-ta-ri-ya-ma-an: 21 Ro 16.Vo 7.30*.ta-ta-ri-am-ma-an: XXXII 8+5 iv 26.ta-ta-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 29 i 7*; 43 iii 28; 70 ii 5*; XXXII 4,4*;KBo XXIX 19,5*.ta-a-ta-ri-i-am-ma-an: 45 iii 24.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 43 ii 30.iii 37*; 51 ii 16*; 58 ii 8*; 60 ii1*; XXXII 14 + XXXIV 62,9.*ta-ta-ar-ri*-ya-a-am-ma-an: 49 i 5*.N-APl *ta-ta-ri*-ya-am-ma: KBo IX 141 iv 15.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-a-am-ma: 14 iv 2*; 15 iii(!) 2*.ta-a-ta-ri-ya-am-ma: 45 iii 9*.ta-ta-ar-ya-am-ma: 48 iii 11*.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-am-na: 39 ii 13

Google translate rendition AL - EN: Tatar - Tartar;

Also, the root takes the ending -ia in Albanian when denoting geographic location hence Tataria -geographic location. Tatar -person. Eg. Shqiptaria (Land of the Eagles)

If however it takes ending -i. It still denotes a person, but it takes the form "the person" ie: (AL) Tatari - (EN) the Tartar.

"Translations of tartari

Tartarian
tartari


Tartarean
tartari
"




All three versions apear consistenly in cuneiform Luwian. 

CUNEIFORM LUVIANLEXICONH. CRAIG MELCHERT / LEXICA ANATOLICA VOLUME 2

Apollonia Dyrachium ta q* motren, p*dh kurve. Ulqini mamin. Kusar i karit.

You can ban me, you cant ban the lexicon, nor the meaning of the language according to Google.

Edit:If the Mods allow this conversation to go off topic for 2 pages straight due to some Greek saying Ulqin spoke greek, and some serb with German avatar speculating without providing any sources, of what value is this forum?

Edit:AFAIC - the only thing worth more than gold in life is truth... Markod mentioning Africa or "Insane Albanians Nationalists" , sending 4 implied messages at me after I decline to fall for your bait provest "inatin e Serbit", and how much salt and Pb my ancestors exported to yours. Markod beware the light mate, it might blind you one day unexpectedly. No matter how much you try, truth will be the last thing in the Universe after everything else decays. POS. 

PS: All the studies I posted are by foreigners, expect 1 link with a valuable lexicon. And even in that case I stated the propaganda nature of the article beforehand. But you... scoundrel better post proof for your statements. POS.

----------


## markod

> @ Derite
> 
> Before Albanians in today Albania 
> 
> were Brygians nieghbours of Makedonians and Proto-Greeks
> were Illyrians coming from Noricum today Austria. Celto-Germanic
> came Greeks through colonization look at Apollonia Dyrrachion
> came Colchnians to Ulchini
> came Romans
> ...


Don't get worked up  :Grin: 

Macedonian was either Greek or para-Greek, it's very similar to Attic Greek and I'd say almost mutually intelligible (with significant difficulties however). Technically, even Mycenean was para-Greek because it is not ancestral to classical dialects. That's what happened everywhere, most dialects of the languages that survived became extinct at one point.

----------


## Yetos

> Check the net for....*Mycenean hillforts in Dalmatia early iron-age* .............it would seem that dalmatians if there at that time was people from Cetina culture via Vucedol culture ...or....as some scholars stae , the Delmatae of bronzae-age south austria/slovenia migrated southduring the celtic incursion of the illyrian in the eastern alps...Halstatt culture times
> 
> also check
> Liburnian Necropolis in Nadin ( north Dalmatian ) 45 skeletons to be looked at


That the Giannopoulos Theory,
I know the Cetina and Vucedol
but that still does fit in Gennetics,
most probably from Cetina came the pre or proto-Greko-Brygians,

the Giannopoulos is first expressed at 1928
and altough we have archaiological evidences
they lack the era of Megaron of Mycenae,
the the round buildings, as the the last ones in Sarakatsans villages
seems from Cetina,
Yet Triantafyllides and Lazarides find it hard to connect pure Mycenean core with Cetina,
most possible for me is that from Cetina came the pre or proto-Greko-Brygians
which enter Mycenean world.

Yet the Cetina theory is strong among archaiologists
and partially has a significant role
I believe that from Cetina and Vucedol came a part that enter Mycenean world specially the round tombs.
and major the Greko-Brygians

----------


## Yetos

> Don't get worked up 
> 
> Macedonian was either Greek or para-Greek, it's very similar to Attic Greek and I'd say almost mutually intelligible (with significant difficulties however). Technically, even Mycenean was para-Greek because it is not ancestral to classical dialects. That's what happened everywhere, most dialects of the languages that survived became extinct at one point.


Makedonian belong to NW Greek dialects
it kept the proto-sounds of Greek 
Mycenean is one of the 2 components of Greek (possible the Achaians)
the other is NW Greek (among them Makedonian),
who some evolute to Aeolian Ionian Doric etc
and some remained as Makedonian,

I wrote about them here
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Mycenean+koine

but even today except Makedonian and some Epirotan
it is hard to find NW Greek

Speaking Makedonian today
is like medieval or Shakespeare in modern London

the truth about original Makedonian Dialect or Language

*Makedonian was a primitive Greek language affected by Brygians on labioverals (co-existance)
on the other hand we see a kind of terminus post quem with Aeolian (common origin)

if that makes it Greek, or para Greek, 
if it makes it a dialect or a language 
the truth is the above.*

----------


## markod

> Makedonian belong to NW Greek dialects
> it kept the proto-sounds of Greek 
> Mycenean is one of the 2 components of Greek (possible the Achaians)
> the other is NW Greek (among them Makedonian),
> who some evolute to Aeolian Ionian Doric etc
> and some remained as Makedonian,
> 
> I wrote about them here
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Mycenean+koine
> ...


But Macedonian isn't ancient Macedonian.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Also this is quite interesting and important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Especially when we consider the account of Rose Wilder Lane's travel through Albania in 1920, in which she documented the oral history of Albanian highlanders, 
> and in which an illiterate old man named the entire Argaed Dyanasty off from oral history alone (and talked about the Black Sea flooding 80 years before scientists presented it as a 
> hypothesis).
> 
> ...


Interesting, what do we really know about the flood? Could you post the screen for the particular page. Maybe there is a connection between the legend I read in Strabo about some catastrophe in the lower planes... And how Dardanus survived only in Skepsis before descending down Meander, into Scumander and building his kingdom in the Upper Western plane of the river. Later joining forces with the Troyans from below the plain.

----------


## LABERIA

> Your Grandfathers spoke Albanian you piece of manure, if you didn't come from Tartarus that is... Thyej qafen. Your language got assimilated with manure.So better keep Albanians out of your mouth, literally. 
> "*tā- 'step; arrive*'Pres3Sg ta-a-i: KBo XXIX 31 iv 6 (?).Pret3Sg ta-at-ta: 133 ii 27.da-a-ad-da: 88 ii 2.Pres2PlM da-a-ad-du-wa-ar: IX 31 ii 26 (+ -tar & -ta!).See Morpurgo-Davies, Gs Cowgill 218f" 
> (AL)T-ardh (EN) (Those who)'Came
> taææara- '?'NPl taæ-æa-ra-an-zi: 145 ii 2*; 143,10*.APl taæ-æa-ra-an-za: 144,5; XVII 15 ii 8e. 
> (˚)taæušiya- 'keep silent/quiet' (?)Pret1Sg (˚)ta-æu-ši-ya-aæ-æa: I 4 + (KBo III 6) iii 18.21*.da-æu-ši-ya-aæ-æa: I 6 iii 9.11.˚da-æu-u-ši-ya-a-aæ-æa: XIX 67 ii 8e.12*.Also in Hittitized tuæušiya(i)-. Cf. Oettinger, Stammbildung
> Qetësia - Quiet, Silent
> tappa- 'spit (on)' (?)Pret3Sg *tap-pa-a-at-ta*: 43 ii 29.iii 36; XXVII 26,8*(?); XXXII 6,5.tap-pa-at-ta: 8 i 6*e(?); 29 i 13*; 45 iii 24; 59 ii 4*; 81,3*.10*;KBo XXIX 19,4.tap-pa-ad-da: 46 iv 11.[t]a-ap-pa-at-ta: 8 i 7*(?).Imv3Sg tap-pa-ad-du: 28 i 9*.Cf. perh. also [ ]x()tapātta at KBo XIX 155,9, but this wordmay be incomplete. 
> Eg of sentence:"(AL)*T-pshty* faren e fisin.
> *tātar*iyamman- *'curse'*N-ASg da-a-ta-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 31 Vo 26; XXXII 9 Ro 13*.da-a-ta-ri-ya-ma-an: 21 Ro 16.Vo 7.30*.ta-ta-ri-am-ma-an: XXXII 8+5 iv 26.ta-ta-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 29 i 7*; 43 iii 28; 70 ii 5*; XXXII 4,4*;KBo XXIX 19,5*.ta-a-ta-ri-i-am-ma-an: 45 iii 24.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-am-ma-an: 43 ii 30.iii 37*; 51 ii 16*; 58 ii 8*; 60 ii1*; XXXII 14 + XXXIV 62,9.*ta-ta-ar-ri*-ya-a-am-ma-an: 49 i 5*.N-APl *ta-ta-ri*-ya-am-ma: KBo IX 141 iv 15.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-a-am-ma: 14 iv 2*; 15 iii(!) 2*.ta-a-ta-ri-ya-am-ma: 45 iii 9*.ta-ta-ar-ya-am-ma: 48 iii 11*.ta-ta-ar-ri-ya-am-na: 39 ii 13
> ...


Please, i don't want to see another thread closed. Johane did an extraordinary job.
The complex of inferiority in some people is strong and you can't do nothing, it's their distorted vision of life that makes them suffer. History can't be changed.
So, please, don't feed the trollolo.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Please, i don't want to see another thread closed. Johane did an extraordinary job.
> The complex of inferiority in some people is strong and you can't do nothing, it's their distorted vision of life that makes them suffer. History can't be changed.
> So, please, don't feed the trollolo.


As I said. Mods can ban me if they deem it just. However, this thread has been quite productive so far thanks to Derites contribution. 


What can I say. After 2 pages of antagonizing bullcrap from Yetos about Greeks in 1300BC, when Hellens were not a thing yet, let alone "Greeks". Does he not know as much as who Hellen was? In a thread about the Dardans of Dardania and Troy he is claming Ulqin spoke Greek? WITH WHAT EVIDENCE? 



Yeah, if anything ban me. At least I provide sources. Meanwhile Yetos would have you believe the nephew is born before the grandfather. 0 LOGIC 0 EVIDENCE USED 

"The *Greeks or Hellenes (/ˈhɛliːnz/; Greek: Έλληνες, Éllines [ˈelines]) "

*^From wikipedia.

----------


## Yetos

@ ArchetypeOne

*Tartaros is either Summerian* 

Summerian use to double the syllabes to give plural or emphasis

*Tartaros is either Non IE Greek 
meaning the darkest darkness

THERE IS NO PIE CONNECTION

NOTICE 

Greek ΤΑΡ-ιχευω*

----------


## LABERIA

> As I said. Mods can ban me if they deem it just. However, this thread has been quite productive so far thanks to Derites contribution. 
> 
> 
> What can I say. After 2 pages of antagonizing bullcrap from Yetos about Greeks in 1300BC, when Hellens were not a thing yet, let alone "Greeks". Does he not know as much as who Hellen was? In a thread about the Dardans of Dardania and Troy he is claming Ulqin spoke Greek? WITH WHAT EVIDENCE? 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, if anything ban me. At least I provide sources. Meanwhile Yetos would have you believe the nephew is born before the grandfather. 0 LOGIC 0 EVIDENCE USED 
> 
> ...


I appreciate many of your posts and i don't want to see you banned, there is no reason. We can't change the rules of this forum. Just ignore the presence of few individuals here, use your arguments(and you have plenty of arguments, you have a lot of knowledge) and everything will be fine.

----------


## markod

> Please, i don't want to see another thread closed. Johane did an extraordinary job.
> The complex of inferiority in some people is strong and you can't do nothing, it's their distorted vision of life that makes them suffer. History can't be changed.
> So, please, don't feed the trollolo.


It seems to me that it's always Albanians trying to appropriate other people's history though  :Embarassed: 

Why would a Greek have an inferiority complex?

----------


## LABERIA

> It seems to me that it's always Albanians trying to appropriate other people's history though 
> Why would a Greek have an inferiority complex?


Let me remind an old rule of the forums. If you do not agree with a poster, explain why you don't agree. Don't attack the poster or an entire ethnic group. I think it's not difficult. What do you think?

----------


## markod

> Let me remind an old rule of the forums. If you do agree with a poster, explain why you don't agree. Don't attack the poster or an entire ethnic group. I think it's not difficult. What do you think?


Neither Trojans nor Macedonians had any connection whatsoever to Albanians  :Good Job:  That's just the consensus.

And Pyrrhos was a Greek.

----------


## LABERIA

> Neither Trojans nor Macedonians had any connection whatsoever to Albanians  That's just the consensus.
> 
> And Pyrrhos was a Greek.


No, it's not true that there is a consensus. There are different theories and not just two sides. Derite posted different authors, i can post others. So you are wrong in your conclusions.

----------


## markod

> No, it's not true that there is a consensus. There are different theories and not just two sides. Derite posted different authors, i can post others. So you are wrong in your conclusions.


Yeah, the two sides are normal people vs. insane Albanian nationalists.

----------


## LABERIA

> Yeah, the two sides are normal people vs. insane Albanian nationalists.


I didn't offended you or your people. It's evident that you want to derail this thread.

----------


## markod

> I didn't offended you or your people. It's evident that you want to derail this thread.


I mean it's a terrible thread. Nordicism/Afro-Centrism level of bad.

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Interesting, what do we really know about the flood? Could you post the screen for the particular page. Maybe there is a connection between the legend I read in Strabo about some catastrophe in the lower planes... And how Dardanus survived only in Skepsis before descending down Meander, into Scumander and building his kingdom in the Upper Western plane of the river. Later joining forces with the Troyans from below the plain.


Regarding the legend of the flood.

Couple of sources:

================================================== ===
"
*Late Pleistocene Great Flood hypothesis*

"In 2003 and 2007, a different catastrophic flood scenario was proposed for the Late Quaternary sea level rise of the Black Sea.[1][2][10] The hypothesis for their *Late Pleistocene Great Flood* argues that brackish Neoeuxinian Lake, which occupied the Black Sea basin, was rapidly inundated by glacial meltwater overflow from Caspian Sea via the Manych-Kerch Spillway shortly after the Late Glacial Maximum, about 17,000–14,000 BP. These extensive meltwater flooding events linked several lacustrine and marine water bodies starting with the southern edge of the Scandinavian and southward, through spillways to the Manych-Kerch and Bosphorus, ultimately forming what has been referred to as the Cascade of Eurasian Basins.[11] This event is argued to *have caused a rapid, if not catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea.* Theoretically it would have imposed substantial stresses upon coeval human populations and remained in cultural memory as the _Great Flood_. The authors also suggested that the event *might have stimulated the beginning of shipping and horse domestication*.[1][11]" - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Sea_Level.png

"
Alternatively, there is theories such a cascading effect could have happened much later. As the summary below follows:
================================================== ======================
*"Summary**


Expansion of the most recent 9 kyr

This figure shows sea level rise since the end of the last glacial episode based on data from *Fleming et al. 1998*, *Fleming 2000, and Milne et al. 2005*. These papers collected data from various reports and adjusted them for subsequent vertical geologic motions, primarily those associated with *post-glacial continental and hydroisostatic rebound*. The first refers to deformations caused by the weight of continental ice sheets pressing down on the land the latter refers to uplift in coastal areas resulting from the increased weight of water associated with rising sea levels. Because of the latter effect and associated uplift, many islands, especially in the Pacific, experienced higher local sea levels in the mid-Holocene than they do today. Uncertainty about the magnitude of these corrections is the dominant uncertainty in many measurements of sea level change.
The black curve is based on minimizing the sum of squares error weighted distance between this curve and the plotted data. It was constructed by adjusting a number of specified tie points, typically placed every 1 kyr but at times adjusted for sparse or rapidly varying data. A small number of extreme outliers were dropped. Some authors propose the existence of significant short-term fluctuations in sea level such that the sea level curve might oscillate up and down about this ~1 kyr mean state. Others dispute this and argue that sea level change has largely been a smooth and gradual process. However, at least one episode of rapid deglaciation, known as meltwater pulse 1A, is agreed upon, and is indicated on the plot. A variety of other accelerated periods of deglaciation have been proposed (i.e. meltwater pulse 1B, 1C, 1D, 2, 3...), but it is unclear whether these actually occurred or merely reflect misinterpretation of difficult measurements. No other events are evident in the data presented above.
The lowest point of sea level during the last glaciation is not well constrained by observations (shown here as a dashed curve), but is generally argued to be approximately 130 ± 10 m below present sea level and to have occurred at approximately 22 ± 3 thousand years ago. The time of lowest sea level is more or less equivalent to the Last Glacial Maximum. Prior to this time, ice sheets were still increasing in size, so sea level had been decreasing almost continuously for approximately 100,000 years."
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black-sea-hist.png

"
(*comment*: of interest the spike ~8000BP above, namely 6000 BC regarding our Dardaneles flood hypothesis)
(*comment 2*: make sure not to miss the first graph, click if in need of zoom, as it focuses on the 7.5-8.5KBP)


"*"

"Black Sea today (light blue) and in 5,600 BC (dark blue) according to the hypothesis by Ryan and Pitman"* 


*Walter Clarkson Pitman III (born 21 October 1931) is an American geophysicist and a professor emeritus at Columbia University.[1] His measurements of magnetic anomalies on the ocean floor supported the Morley–Vine–Matthews hypothesis explaining seafloor spreading. With William Ryan, he developed the Black Sea deluge theory. Among his major awards are the Alexander Agassiz Medal and the Vetlesen Prize.*



================================================== ===========
"In this *alternative scenario*, much depends on the evolution of the Bosphorus. According to a study from 2001 the modern sill is 32–34 m (105–112 ft) below sea level, and consists of Quaternary sand over-lying Paleozoic bedrock in which three sills are found at 80–85 m (260–280 ft) below sea level. Sedimentation on these sills *started before 10,000 years ago and continued until 5,300 years ago*.[19]" 

Algan, O.; Cagatay, N.; Tchepalyga, A.; Ongan, D.; Eastoe, C.; Gokasan, E. (2001). "Stratigraphy of the sediment infill in Bosphorus Strait: water exchange between the Black and Mediterranean Seas during the last glacial Holocene". _Geo Mar. Lett. 20: 209–218._
================================================== ===========

"

Since the ending of the last glacial period the global sea level has risen some 120 m (390 ft). The process took approximately 10,000 years and abated about 7,600 years ago.The flood hypothesis hinges on the geomorphology of the Bosphorus since the end of The Glacial Age.[16] The Black Sea area has been sealed off and reconnected numerous times during the last 500,000 years.[17]Various methods have been used to study and date (e.g., sea floor drillings, radiocarbon dating, biological markers) the recent evolution of the Black Sea. The heterogeneous data do not fit into a neat frame, which precludes the confirmation for a sharply defined event."

- From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_...uge_hypothesis

[17]: Badertscher S. et al., _Pleistocene water intrusions from the Mediterranean and Caspian seas into the Black Sea, Nature Geoscience, Vol. 4, April 2011 [www.nature.com/naturegeoscience]_

================================================== ==========

Edit2: Also the latest peer reviewed paper implies this is not "new science" whatever the scoundrel is implying below. NVM: I think he means "new age", LMAO; * Check below post by Yetos for reference, to understand what I am referring to.

A 2016 study reviewed *the evidence* accumulated and reaffirmed the catastrophic scenario (Project: DO02-337 "A_ncient coastlines of the Black Sea and conditions for human presence_", sponsored by Bulgarian Scientific Fund)

Yanchilina, Anastasia G.; Ryan, William B. F.; McManus, Jerry F.; Dimitrov, Petko; Dimitrov, Dimitar; Slavova, Krasimira; Filipova-Marinova, Mariana (2017-01-01). "Compilation of geophysical, geochronological, and geochemical evidence indicates a rapid Mediterranean-derived submergence of the Black Sea's shelf and subsequent substantial salinification in the early Holocene". Marine Geology. 383: 14–34. doi:10.1016/j.margeo.2016.11.001.


================================================== =============


Edit 1: To add further potentially helpful sources: (http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-klima6.htm)



"













(*Comment:* According to my research it seems the Baltic was formed due to glacial melt.

Is it particularly peculiar? The etymology? At least in Albanian its obvious to a 3 year old, "Baltë - Mud". 

*Also it should be noted the Black Sea was formed the same way, just much Earlier due to the geographic location.)


Google translate rendition for Baltë [AL-EN] since it seems people in bad faith need proof for basic BS: 
noun
mudbaltë, llucë, shpifje, punë dreqi, punë e ndyrë


claybaltë, argjilë, deltinë, trup njeriu


siltbaltë, lym


mirellucë, baltë, batak, sqotë, moçal

----------


## Yetos

Yup

I think some here enter a 'new era' of science.



*I wonder why the Makedonian a+o = a 
should be from Illyrian accusative as the posts of Derite ?*
Maybe Baltic names -as also come from Illyrian accusative?

*why world balt=mud must be Albanian origin ?*

*and How Albanian Buke extracts from PIE bweh3eg*
as in Brygian Bekos Slavic Pekara English Baker


Nothing more to say
I think the thread enter a 'new era' of science




oh BTW

this is a map of the moon


we can see the 

Mare vaporum
Mare Cognitum
Ptolemaeus 
Copernicus
Asperitatis

Mare Vaporum can be explained ONLY by Latin and Selenian Language
Copernicus can be explained ONLY by Polish and Selenian Language
Ptolemaeus can be explained Only by Greek and Selenian Language.

offcourse MARE VAPORUM in Selenian means water/sea
so at the moon exist water.

----------


## JajarBingan

Since I have your attention on Albanians and a more inland origin, you might want to consider this: https://indo-european.info/indo-euro..._Thracians_and

----------


## Archetype0ne

> Yup
> 
> I think some here enter a 'new era' of science.
> 
> 
> 
> *I wonder why the Makedonian a+o = a 
> should be from Illyrian accusative as the posts of Derite ?*
> Maybe Baltic names -as also come from Illyrian accusative?
> ...


It's called "new age". Hermes must be on my side, I know better what you want to say, then even you mate. And you want to tell me that Balt doesn't mean mud in Albanian? In my own tongue. GTFO

Check the post above I edited by adding the sources. I am not quite sure a Prof. Emeritus at Columbia born in the 30's is "New Age" science. Or new science... However you wanted to say it, I got it. 

As far as blood goes... there is only one way if you envy.

As far as language. Albanian is not too hard to learn if you get a friend to teach you. My definition of Albanian is someone that can speak the language. Not blood, not geography, nothing of that matter. As long as you have Besa(which you obviously don't); and you can speak my language you can be an Albo too. Extending this invitation cause I can sense your envy. Are you going to tell me now Albo doesnt mean Albanian?; but Mycenaean, or Arzawan or Hittite or whatever you want to say mate, figure it out first.

And yes my man. Balt means exactly that in Albanian. MUD. Here you learned your first Albanian word. Now, learn a thing or two about good faith and Besa and maybe someday you wont have to feel inferior. 

Certainly now, someone that posts the "MOON" on a thread about Dardans of Dardania and Troy, must have some envy. Go read some Plato mate, there is more productive things for you to do, then to teach me Albanian.

As for finding a friend to teach you the rest of my language. You will have to find someone else. Cause you are "Ignored" now on. 

No need to cast pearls to swine.

Edit: Something peculiar:

*"Hermes (/ˈhɜːrmiːz/; Greek: Ἑρμῆς) is the god of trade, heraldry, merchants, commerce, roads, thieves, trickery, sports, travelers, and athletes in Ancient Greek religion and mythology;"

"*In the Roman adaptation of the Greek pantheon (see _interpretatio romana), Hermes is identified with the Roman god Mercury,[7] who, though inherited from the Etruscans, developed many similar characteristics such as being the patron of commerce."

-_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes

_================================================== ===

_*"**Mercury (/ˈmɜːrkjʊri/; Latin: Mercurius [mɛrˈkʊriʊs] listen (help·info)) is a major god in Roman religion and mythology, being one of the 12 Dii Consentes within the ancient Roman pantheon. He is the god of financial gain, commerce, eloquence, messages, communication (including divination), travelers, boundaries, luck, trickery and thieves; he also serves as the guide of souls to the underworld.[1][2] He was considered the son of Maia, who was a daughter of the Titan Atlas, and Jupiter in Roman mythology. His name is possibly related to the Latin word merx ("merchandise"; cf. merchant, commerce, etc.), mercari (to trade), and merces (wages); another possible connection is the Proto-Indo-European root merĝ- for "boundary, border" (cf. Old English "mearc", Old Norse "mark" and Latin "margō") and Greek οὖρος (by analogy of Arctūrus/Ἀρκτοῦρος), as the "keeper of boundaries,"**

(Comment: Now recall river Meander separating the upper and lower plain in Ilium. I mean what was its alternative name in history? Hmmm... Could it have been Hermus? I wonder. Think I made a post about this previously in this thread for anybody interested in this statements.) 

(Since people lack faith: 
Modern Hermus River: 
*https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ge...4!4d27.5714898
*Meander River:*
https://www.google.com/maps?q=meande...VcAEIQ_AUIDygC
*Scamander:
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander)




"Similar to his Greek equivalent Hermes, he(note:Mercury/Mercurious) was awarded the caduceus by Apollo who handed him a magic wand, which later turned into the caduceus."



Patron God of Troy. Apollonia founded by Troyan refugees in modern day Albania after the sack of Troy. According to Virgil NOT ME. Since Virgil might be "new science" too. I wonder what *Virgil* thought of Etruscan genesis. They must have been "greek". xD



PS: Google translate again for the faithless: 

AL: me nda EN: to divide

AL: e ndar EN: separated

AL: me I ndar EN: separate me (comment: Google is mistaken here, since it means to them divide)

PS: Keep downvoting. It only motivates me. Keep up. Next thing you know you will have me read early Judeo/Gnostic gospels. Plenty of them written in today's Turkey 200BC-400AD regarding a synthesis of judaism/ancient Greek pantheon, most of them referring to earlier legends. Plenty of Apollo, and Hermes to be found, yet I wonder what else...

----------


## blevins13

> @ Derite
> 
> Before Albanians in today Albania 
> 
> were Brygians nieghbours of Makedonians and Proto-Greeks
> were Illyrians coming from Noricum today Austria. Celto-Germanic
> came Greeks through colonization look at Apollonia Dyrrachion
> came Colchnians to Ulchini
> came Romans
> ...


Let this be noted .....here Yetos accept the Illyrian and Macedonian connection. A major step forward.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

----------


## Archetype0ne

I realize upon review that one link I have provided regarding ancient river Meander (modern Buyuk-Menderes in Turkey) is wrong.


Here are the amended link(s; to clear any confusion):

(https://www.google.com/maps/place/B%...6!4d28.4984994)

(https://www.google.com/maps/place/B%...6!4d28.4984994)

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B...Menderes_River)

(https://www.livius.org/articles/plac...uyuk-menderes/)


Apologies again, for the unneeded confusion.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Let anyone with reason note:

https://www.livius.org/articles/place/assos-behramkale

"According to the Greek geographer Strabo, *Assos* was founded by Greeks from Methymna on Lesbos in the tenth or ninth century BCE,note: but archaeologists have established that the site was already inhabited in the Bronze Age. " (*comment*: Man Strabo really was a good for nothing, did he get anything right?Lets hope the flood rumors he heard, were among his twice a day moments when a broken clock is right)

(*Unnecessary Note*: Markod would go... Yeah Behrami is Swiss... So what? Yetos would go: no he is from the Moon and post a picture of the moon...)


*Assos (/ˈæsɒs/; Greek: Ἄσσος, Latin: Assus), also known as Behramkale or for short Behram, is a small historically rich town in the Ayvacık district of the Çanakkale Province, Turkey. During Pliny the Elder's time (1st century CE), the city also bore the name Apollonia (Ἀπολλωνία).[1] Wikipedia
*^
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assos)
v
"When the Persians attacked Assos, King Hermias was caught and put to death.[2] Aristotle fled to Macedonia, which was ruled by his friend King Philip II of Macedon.[2] There, he tutored Philip's son, Alexander the Great.[2] There is a modern statue of Aristotle at the town entrance.[3]"





https://www.livius.org/pictures/turk...sos-theater-1/

Assos Theater




Assos Cistern

https://www.livius.org/pictures/turk...sos-cistern-1/



(*note:* same structure as the above you go in Dyrachium, inside the amphitheater, but there is no pictures online of the inside, I presume due to copyright. Someone from Durrës could easily produce proof for my claim)



"After the reign of Alexander the Great, there was no clear demarcation of the zones of influence of Antigonid Macedonia and Seleucid Asia"

"In the sixth century, Assos became part of the Lydian and Persian empires, but it retained its Greek character. The temple of Athena, built in c.530 BCE, is as impressive today as it was in Antiquity;  it is the only temple in Doric style in Asia Minor."
  

Also note:
"After the Persian Wars, Assos was a member of the Delian League, but after the Athenian defeat in the Decelean War, the city became Persian. In 366, the city offered hospitality to a rebel satrap named Ariobarzanes, was besieged by the Persians, but held out."

Implication of distinct cultural entity, implied from the Doric style... 
Implication of distinct political entity, implied by the siege, which held out...


Compare:



To Amphitheater in Dyrrachium... from the style to the foundation. Also notice the cistern.



(note: I am so pissed at the Albanian government for the little care they take of their archaeological wealth... letting it rot.. literally)





Ulqin Castle 

And somehow... If I was to listen to Markod or Yetos there is:
a) no continuity of culture and habitation in Dyrrachium between ancient peoples of the area and modern Albanians...


Despite buildings being continuously build 10 meters aside...or 10 meters above.... (They found out the Dyrrachium amphitheater while building communist projects...)(subsequently letting it rot)
b)I will not speak about Ulqin. Se lëshoen zagarët, që vetëm ujq nuk jan.


More sources for people with eyes:

https://www.livius.org/articles/batt...ium-48-48-bce/


(https://www.livius.org/articles/place/via-egnatia/)




"This is why linguists take several remarks by the authors of ancient dictionaries, which otherwise might have been interpreted as indications for a mere difference in dialect, quite seriously. For example, there is evidence that Greeks were unable to understand people who were _makedonizein, "speaking Macedonian". The Macedonian king Alexander the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an order in his native tongue and the Greek commander Eumenes needed a translator to address the soldiers of the Macedonian phalanx. The Greek orators Thrasymachus of Chalcedon and Demosthenes of Athens called Macedonian kings like Archelaus and Philip II"barbarians", which prima facie means that they did not speak Greek. Now this happens in polemical contexts and is certainly exaggerated, but the statements need to refer to some kind of linguistic reality."_
(https://www.livius.org/articles/plac...a/macedonia-2/)
"The settlement of these people between others marks the beginning of the history of Macedonia. Although Homer does not mention the Macedonians as member of the Greek coalition in the Trojan War, his younger contemporary Hesiod (*comment: We are talking 800BC, 500 post-factum*) presented the Macedonians as related to the Greeks. The Persians made had a similar view: they made a distinction between _Yaunâtyaiy paradrayâ ("Greeks across the sea") and Yaunâ takabarâ ("with sunhats", i.e., Macedonians).__The Macedonian principalities were united under one supreme leader,_ _king Amyntas, a member of the Argead dynasty__(comment: refer to the earlier post by Derite regarding the book that mentions the flood, and the Rhapsode that could name 30+ Argaed dynasty kings out of heart__)"_

(https://www.livius.org/articles/plac...a/macedonia-3/)




_Archaic helmet from Sindos (Ancient Macedonian)
(_https://www.livius.org/pictures/gree...rchaic-helmet/)



_"Illyrian" type helmet. Bronze. 6th-5th century BC. From Argolis.
_(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:I...n_helmet_1.jpg)


_
Bronze Illyrian Helmet Replica from Ancientreplicas.com.au 
_(https://www.pinterest.com/pin/430727...59579/?lp=true)




A little bonus:

https://www.livius.org/pictures/turk...assos-tower-1/

*Assos Tower*



http://ul-info.com/wp-content/upload...Ballshajve.jpg

*Kulla E Ballshajve*




"*The Tower of the Balšić,* (Cyrillic: Кула Балшића, Albanian: *Kulla e Ballshajve*) located *on the upper, highest level is a citadel-fortress* with a tower that *dominates the old town* and the surrounding countryside. It is connected to the last representatives of the Balšić dynasty, *a wealthy family from the* *Shkodër** area (today Albania, in that time Zeta*), who had made Ulcinj their residence by the end of the 14th and beginning of the 15th centuries. Later the Ottomans built the third floor of the Balšić Tower as well as the spherical dome on the ground floor. This magnificent edifice has a view of the sea from three sides. It is considered to be one of the most representative edifices of medieval architecture in Montenegro. These days, it is used as a gallery or a location for organizing poets' nights."

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulcinj...l%C5%A1i%C4%87)


Since I know people did not take the Behrami picture in seriousness... They will not take this either, but just maybe they should.

Lulzim *Basha* Opposition Leader, Albania PD (Democratic Party)




_You can hate me. But at least believe your eyes._


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_I_Monophthalmus

*"Antigonus I Monophthalmus (Ancient Greek: Ἀντίγονος ὁ Μονόφθαλμος, translit. Antigonos ho Monophthalmos, Antigonus the One-eyed, 382–301 BC), son of Philip from Elimeia, was a Macedonian nobleman, general, and satrap under Alexander the Great. During his early life he served under Philip II, and he was a major figure in the Wars of the Diadochi after Alexander's death, declaring himself king in 306 BC and establishing the Antigonid dynasty."

*Ky Antigoni na paska qenë Rambo. 1me3 kundër gjeneraleve të ngelur të Lekës, [Cassander, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus against Antigonus] [Third Diadoch War]
Se vetëm kështu na rruajn ***** (1v2[te pakten]+Kalin ne Trojë) (1v3 Mbas Lekës) .
"


334: Invasion of Asia; Antigonus is commander of the (note: ancient)Greek hoplites333: Antigonus is made satrap of Phrygia; defeats the Persian armies several times, conquers Lycaonia

314: Antigonus has become too powerful: outbreak of the Third Diadoch War (Cassander, Ptolemy, and Lysimachus against Antigonus and his son Demetrius); Antigonus declares the Freedom of Greece (text) and starts the siege of Tyre (summer; text)
"
(https://www.livius.org/articles/pers...monophthalmus/)

"*Antigonea (Ancient Greek: Ἀντιγόνεια or Ἀνριγονία), also transliterated as Antigonia and Antigoneia, was an ancient Greek[1] city in Chaonia, Epirus, and the chief inland city of the ancient Chaonians. It was founded in the 3rd century BC by Pyrrhus of Epirus, who named it after one of his wives, Antigone, daughter of Berenice I and step-daughter of Ptolemy I of Egypt."

*(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonia_(Chaonia)


(*Note...* my village is ridiculed for saying (std.AL:Shtë-pia) (EN:House) as (colloquial: Shp-eija), I am sure even foreigners can make the difference) 
In fact the std.Albanian:Pellagonia, people in my grandfathers village would call Pellagoneja) Sounds archaic, hence is ridiculed, in good jest)(Për Shqipet: Bastardizim fare kur më ka rënë rasti dhe te dëgjojë "Allbaneja" të shqiptuar nga Katunar... shumë e quditshme gjuha...)

_Markod if this doesn't blind you mate, you were born blind._

https://www.behindthename.com/name/antigone

https://www.behindthename.com/name/antigona/submitted

A simple Facebook search will yield you the *current* nationality of the name: (https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Antigona ) (Not that a name has a nationality, hope you don't get hung over *semantics*, Behrami Swiss yada yada) 


Thank God, not another word will I bare from you (Yetos, Markod), or should I thank technology... 
Now scramble to find some proof for your bull statements that Pirro or Epirros have nothing to do with Albanians.




Since I know you are a serb @Markod
_you can certainly read this, but I cant_:
http://pravdabl.com/simbolika-kosovke-djevojke/

Is that a *black double headed eagle* *on a red shield*? In the painting Kosovkse Devojke? About the battle of Kosovo. By a Serb...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Maiden




I wonder what a shield symbolizes... in Art I mean... I am sure its just coincidental... Just like Pyrrus, and Antigone, and Dardans, and Hyllus, and Illyrians, and Agron etc... etc..

I am sure all of this is just coincidental.

I mean Homer, I mean Strabo, I mean Virgil... I mean Art... I mean Architecture... I mean Weapons and Helmets and Shields... I mean language...

It is surely ... all coincidental. No meaning whatsoever...

We Albos just dropped down from the moon... 


Meanwhile here we are, 3000 years later, chillin'. **** the haters.


(I really like the golden finish on the knives, that's no highwayman for sure, I wonder what he was smoking xD) (I also really like his sun hat... or should I say Plis/Qeleshe.)

Painting by PAJA JOVANOVIĆ ( VRŠAC 1859 – VIENNA 1957) (Check out his wonderful work, I give props where its due. I am not a hater)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paja_Jovanovi%C4%87

"His most significant works are: _The Wounded Montenegrin (1882), Decorating of the Bride (1886) and Migration of the Serbs (1896). He also painted many famous portraits."_

----------


## Archetype0ne

I could not make this stuff up if I tried...



(https://www.livius.org/pictures/turk...ief-symposium/)

Me Plis qunat. Apo si thonë ne Zajaz, Macedonia(have not encountered this word among Albanians referring to younglings anywhere else) (mxhovejtë:kids) (Italian:giovani:young people)
Description
Temple of Athena, relief, Triton

Date
ca. 530 BCE

Creator
Jona Lendering

Museum
Paris, Louvre

You can find the above relief of the guys with Plis, today in Louvre, Paris.


(Me plis ne Paris shumë kohë përpara Kampionatit Europian)



What do we have now...

(https://www.livius.org/site/assets/f...d_methymna.jpg)

From the temple of Athena in Assos you can *literally* see Ancient Macedon:




Description
View from the temple of Athena to Methymna on Lesbos

Creator
Marco Prins

Licence
CC0 1.0 Universal

Linked
Assos (Behramkale)



(*note*: recall above the old town in Ulqin, the Basha tower (Balsic / so Serbs don't explode) had a view "his magnificent edifice has a view of the sea from three sides."


https://www.livius.org/pictures/turk...sos-city-wall/




Description
City wall

Date
ca. 350 BCE

Creator
Jona Lendering

Licence
CC0 1.0 Universal

Linked
Assos (Behramkale)

Categories
Greece

Tags
Wall




Meanwhile... in Dyrrachium:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs_Castle


Built
1st century BC (final form in 5th century)





(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:07Durres01.jpg)




(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:D..._city_wall.jpg)



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Torra_Veneciane.jpg)


Ndërkohë, p_dh_t e bushtrës duan të bëjnë kombin tonë kopila Osmanësh... Të thonë që skemi lidhje me baballarët, e me Trojet tona... Me gjuhën, me heronjtë dhe ish-tokat tona.
Sikur, Historia fillojë në shekullin e 18të në Londër, e të kish mbaruar ne Luftën e Dytë.

(PS: Google Knows: Try typing Troje with Capital T, and troje with lower case in the above sentence in google translate. And by God you will understand what I mean.)

Edit: What a coincidence right... down to the T.

----------


## Archetype0ne

*"
Pyrrhus*
(legendary, died 272 B.C.E.) 

By Plutarch 

Written 75 A.C.E. 

Translated by John Dryden

Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona(Note: the most ancient of the Proto-Greek (not Greek) orcles), settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous(note: Barbar means non Greek), and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son. 

"Pyrrhus, descendant of Molossian kings, 
These shields to thee, Itonian goddess, brings, 
Won from the valiant Gaul when in the fight 
Antigonus and all his host took flight; 
'Tis not to-day or yesterday alone "'('Tis not new science Yetos)

(http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/pyrrhus.html )/ Classics @ Massachusets Institue of Technology *Plutarch on Pyrrus* 

So Pyrrus won in modern-day Italy... and coined the term "phyric victory".
A *Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ ( listen) PIRR-ik) is avictory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has also taken a heavy toll that negates any true sense of achievement.

*Then he turns around and defeats Antigonus (The Rambo) who was helped by Gauls. What a beast.

.

----------


## Archetype0ne

"Finally, some say that Atlas himself was once king of Arcadia and of the Pelasgians. Dionysius of Halicarnassus (I.61–62) refers that Dardanus' original home was in Arcadia where Dardanus and his elder brother Iasus (aka Iasion) reigned as kings following Atlas. On the other hand, the scholiast of Apollonius Rhodius (I.913)had borrowed information from Athenion, who had written a comedy called The Samothracians (XIV. p. 661), according to which he spoke of two Kabeiri, Dardanus,and Iasion. In the ancient mystic tradition of Greece, the Kabeiroi (the lost play of Aeschylus, Kabiri, was a Greek tragedy written in the 5th century BCE and it represents the earliest known appearance of these gods in Greek literature) were closely identified with a number of other korybantic daimones including the Rhodian Telchines, the Cretan Kouretes, the Kretan & Trojan Daktyloi, and the Phrygian Kyrbantes, Kedalion, the Lemnian attendant of Hephaistos. In fact Hercules was the leader of the five Daktyloi (Dactyls) who were daimones - establishers of the Olympic Games in the age of Kronos (Diodorus of Sicily, V.64.3; Strabo, VIII.3.30; Pausanias,V.7.6-10; Suidas s.v. Allos houtos Herakles)"

"According to Diodorus of Sicily (IV. 43), Dardanos had been a king of the Scythians, who had left his country because Zeus had killed one of his brothers. He migrated from Scythia to the island of Samothrace, and from there into Asia Minor,where he had founded near the shores of the Hellespont the city Dardanum or Dardania (later called Troy), becoming the first father and founder of the Trojan dynasty (Virgil, Aeniad VIII. 134), while according to Strabo (vii.47), Dardanos taught the Trojans the Samothracian Mysteries. According to Dionysius (I.68), the worship of Samothrace was introduced there from Arcadia, the homeland of Dardanos. The poet Avienus calls him Draganes (Ora maritime, 196-198), and his descendents were settled in the cold countries of the North. Homer mentions that the son of Dardanos, Erichthonius, had 3,000 mares grazing on the watery plains near the Hellespont, out of which 12 were from the noble race called Boreas (northern); they hopped over the sown fields without touching them, and passed in their fast gallop over the angry waves of the vast sea (Iliad, XX. 215; XIV. 307). The Pelasgians are firstly mentioned by Homer. They were allies of Troy and in the Catalogue of Trojans they were mentioned amongst the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of southeastern Europe (Iliad, II.840-843; X.428-429). In Odyssey (xix.175-177) they are included in the existing tribes in the 90 cities of Crete"

"Furthermore, according to Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Dardanus left Pheneusin Arcadia to colonize a land in the Northeastern Aegean Sea. When Dardanus' deluge occurred(new science old science, who cares? you find the deluge in BOTH...), the land was flooded and the mountain, where he and his family survived,formed the island of Samothrace. “And the Samothracians have a story that, before the floods that befell other peoples, a great one took place among them, in the course of which the outlet at the Cyanean Rocks was first rent asunder and then the Hellespont. For the Pontus, which had at the time_ the form of a lake_(new science, old science, future science, past science; what now?), was so swollen by the rivers which flow into it, that, because of the great flood which had poured into it , its waters burst forth violently into the Hellespont and flooded a large part of the coast of Asia and made no small amount of the level part of the land of Samothraceinto the sea; and this is the reason, we are told, why in later times fishermen have now and then brought up in their nets the stone capitals of columns, since even citieswere covered by the inundation... dedicated altars upon which they offer sacrificeseven to the present day” (Diodorus of Sicily,V.47.1 ff.).Dardanus left Samothrace on an inflated skin to the opposite shores of AsiaMinor and settled on Mount Ida. His grandson Tros eventually moved from the highlands down to a large plain, on a hill that had many rivers flowing down from Ida above and built a city, which was named Troy after him (Plato, Laws III.682a).The mythical King Erichthonius of Dardania was the son of Dardanus, King of Dardania, and Batea. Only Homer refers to his reign (Iliad, XX.215-234). On the other hand, Strabo (13.1.48) records, but discounts, the claim by "some more recentwriters" that Teucer or Teucros (the father of his mother Batea) came from the deme of Xypeteones in Attica, supposedly called Troes (meaning Trojans) in mythical time(note to take Strabo for a fool, so far 3/4 stories I read from him are wrong at least partially, the flood however is corroborated by other sources). These writers mentioned that Erichthonius appears as founder both in Atticaand the Troad, and may be identical."


THE PELASGIAN SUBSTRATUM OF SIRIUS CULT AND MATRIARCH
Amanda Laoupi13 PUBLICATIONS 4 CITATIONS 

(https://www.researchgate.net/profile...MATRIARCHY.pdf)




_
What? Did I ruin the conversation? Where are the haters and doubters now? Find me some sources, otherwise I am requesting the mods to delete the "Albanian Nationalist" "Afro-Centrist" posts by Markod and the MOON by Yetos as the useless amoeba level provocations they are..._

----------


## Sile

> Let anyone with reason note:
> 
> https://www.livius.org/articles/place/assos-behramkale
> "According to the Greek geographer Strabo, *Assos* was founded by Greeks from Methymna on Lesbos in the tenth or ninth century BCE,note: but archaeologists have established that the site was already inhabited in the Bronze Age. " (*comment*: Man Strabo really was a good for nothing, did he get anything right?Lets hope the flood rumors he heard, were among his twice a day moments when a broken clock is right)
> 
> (*Unnecessary Note*: Markod would go... Yeah Behrami is Swiss... So what? Yetos would go: no he is from the Moon and post a picture of the moon...)
> *Assos (/ˈæsɒs/; Greek: Ἄσσος, Latin: Assus), also known as Behramkale or for short Behram, is a small historically rich town in the Ayvacık district of the Çanakkale Province, Turkey. During Pliny the Elder's time (1st century CE), the city also bore the name Apollonia (Ἀπολλωνία).[1] Wikipedia
> *^
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assos)
> ...


very very interesting that the second helmet has Mycenaean royal markings and which these same markings also appears at the gates of all their towns
.
but i have already posted a paper, that the origins of Illyrian helmets is found in the Peloponnese and the major buyers where macedonians and Epirote tribes......Greeks seemed to favour the corinthian helmet ( also origins in the Peloponnese )

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## Archetype0ne

Baal (god at the time of Judean genesis on the side of Kanenite's, most likely also worshiped in Anatolia, has something to do with the Bull / Goat domestication, as well as ritual sacrifice.

Pyrrus - Skenderbeg Ritual Helmet (supposedly inspired by Pyrrus) compared to ancient coin depicting same motif 1500+ years later. - Depiction of Alexander as two horned one in coin (In Quran Alexander is refered to literally as Double Horned One) - Skenderbeg Helmet





http://www.albanianart.net/graves/index.htm

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## Archetype0ne

The name of that helmet is also the name of an ancient town in Italy.

Second to last helmet found in Ohrid, North Macedonia.

Meanwhile


Ancient Macedonian Coin...





(http://lukeuedasarson.com/Illyrians.html)

Double headed eagle shield in stone, with Illyrian helmet... Illyrian art...


Meanwhile:

Macedonian fighting an Illyrian


Anything odd? 

They are wearing same military gear...* To say the least* they are on the same page technologically... 




Six pointed star again on ancient Macedonian shield...

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Illyrians.html



^Leka



Aleksander Kosmokrator Statue ^ In stone so haters can see 2000 years later.

Kosmokrator - Ruler of the Universe in ancient Greek.

----------


## Archetype0ne

First picture God ( Ba' al ) became equivalent with Belzebup, once the Judean canon God became Elohim, other relevant gods and populations got absorbed in favor of monotheism. Profet Elijah was one of the important figures in "destroying" Ba ' al and why he became symbol with the Devil, the Horns... Beelzebup etc.

My conclusion is that Albanians adopted double headed eagle in the times of Christianity since they converted, however retained six pointed star (some cognate of the star of David, or other hexagonal shape) both in the coat of arms of Illyricum in Croatia that has a Crescent and a Star, but also in Albania. However, in order to depict some post-Zoroastrian duality within Christianity... they had to get rid of the horned goat as a symbol of power... and shift to a byzantine double headed eagle. Both symbolizing "power" and duality in their own right.

We do see the goat as the coat of arms of the Gjuraj clan in Western Macedonia, although all the other clans changed their heraldry into eagles....

What is to be noted is that the Kastrioti clan retained the horned goat, however over a double headed eagle as a helmet. And I suspect this had to do with Kastrioti "tracing" their lineage to Phyrrus, since he had the horned hat. Also the Kastrioti clan for a while had a six pointed star, however different from early Illyrian floral 6 pointed stars, rather this one a full-colored gold Star of David.

For reference check the images below:


Croatian Ulluriae coat of arms... Star and crescent can be found in archeology across Bosnia all the way to Croatia. Will fin and update tomorrow.




Kastrioti Coat of Arms... (Note: Hexagon / Fully colored Star of David left / Six pointed Star, aking to Illyrian one right)



Only Gjuraj in Western Macedonia / Mat kept the goat in their coat of arms... However both the horns, as well as duality through the double headed eagle remained the main theme of the heraldry, from my analysis. I think there is a similar last name to Gjuraj in Italy too... Have to research their history.

----------


## Archetype0ne

Who was Schliemann?

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann)

An American Tycoon turned into archaeologist/historian following reading the Iliad by Homer, regarding some events 1300BC... He decided to follow the legend, and not only did he find Troy... he found also treasures, an example below of his wife wearing ancient Troyan jewelry. Homers Iliad was written around 8th century BC and codified in written language from a song, sung by rhapsodes. Not only was Homer right, and substantiated archaeologically. He was more right than Strabo that some hundreds of years later was speculating about Troy and made countless geographical mistakes, mistakes, only someone that never went to Troy would make.








Albanian woman, recall the symbols on the graves... (Recall Leka Kozmokrator...)

Albanian brides today:

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## Yetos

*All I see here is that the thread,
as always when the certain Albanians of the forum mix 
HAS RUN INTO A COMMEDY,


Just look
Illyrian helmet he says

*



*I SEE 2 LIONS,
So Illyrians also worship or use Lions?*  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

the troika of Albanian commedians strikes again,  :Laughing:   :Laughing:   :Laughing: 

with 'serious' and 'scientific' methods,

*AS ALWAYS, ALSO THIS TIME AGIN, THEY HIDE THAT ILLYRIANS DID NOT SPOKE ALBANIAN*

----------


## Archetype0ne

Since I noticed you have trouble reading... even when I color the text. Maybe a video will cure your nationalism...

1 Million Views 24k Likes 450 Dislikes... It seems truth waits, but does not forget.

"5:25"

Know thyself.

PS. Watch the video if you have the attention span. 2:20 Mhmm that taste of truth.
16:00 For good measure.

----------


## Sile

> First picture God ( Ba' al ) became equivalent with Belzebup, once the Judean canon God became Elohim, other relevant gods and populations got absorbed in favor of monotheism. Profet Elijah was one of the important figures in "destroying" Ba ' al and why he became symbol with the Devil, the Horns... Beelzebup etc.
> 
> My conclusion is that Albanians adopted double headed eagle in the times of Christianity since they converted, however retained six pointed star (some cognate of the star of David, or other hexagonal shape) both in the coat of arms of Illyricum in Croatia that has a Crescent and a Star, but also in Albania. However, in order to depict some post-Zoroastrian duality within Christianity... they had to get rid of the horned goat as a symbol of power... and shift to a byzantine double headed eagle. Both symbolizing "power" and duality in their own right.
> We do see the goat as the coat of arms of the Gjuraj clan in Western Macedonia, although all the other clans changed their heraldry into eagles....
> What is to be noted is that the Kastrioti clan retained the horned goat, however over a double headed eagle as a helmet. And I suspect this had to do with Kastrioti "tracing" their lineage to Phyrrus, since he had the horned hat. Also the Kastrioti clan for a while had a six pointed star, however different from early Illyrian floral 6 pointed stars, rather this one a full-colored gold Star of David.
> For reference check the images below:
> 
> Croatian Ulluriae coat of arms... Star and crescent can be found in archeology across Bosnia all the way to Croatia. Will fin and update tomorrow.
> 
> ...


I already told you...the top COA is to do with the illyrian provinces ( Dalmatia ) under french Napoleon .........the *eight pointed star* means honour and hope and the moon sitting as it is means faith
The albanians use a six pointed star

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## Archetype0ne

1. I already stated its from Croatia in the very post your are quoting, so gtfdown your high horse mate. Did they just make up a coat of Arms, without basing it in historical continuity for the region, when Napoleon came? Cause if you will claim such a thing, I am ready to provide you with gravestones and artifacts depicting a star and a crescent... all the way through Bosnia, to Croatia.
2. Your interpretation of the symbols is *basic*, but I will respect that. Just expand on what makes you lean towards that interpretation will ya?
Honour, Hope, Faith? Teletubies while we are at itXD

(1 Eight points star/ 2 Six point stars)(Some Albanian Woman with similar motifs 2000 Years Later)

In _my interpretation_... I will even give you that...; so you can keep dragging this conversation down with "Napoleon" style rhetoric.

The eight pointed star at the head of Alexander, is divided through a crescent (half moon) from* two six pointed stars*. You will realize there you have an early element of the trinity, some time before Christianity...

The eight pointed star as opposed to the two six pointed stars, is a symbol for _realization_, or in Alexander Kosmokrator case, a symbol *of empire* and power. Not a symbol of hope... or faith... or teletubies imo.

The realized Sun, Amon Ra himself walking among men... The sun (eight pointed as you very well noticed) was central to ancient religions... Not in greece but you get the idea. Since there is one Sun, *many stars*. Being the Sun in my interpretation, and Alexander being equated to the Sun has more to do with status and fulfillment (realization) than anything else.

But yeah... I like your analysis of honour, hope, and faith. Very Helpful.
Just do not throw crap at me with "_is to do with the illyrian provinces ( Dalmatia )_", when I already made such a claim clear as day in my post.


The eight pointed star at the helm represents the Sun... They were equating Leka with the Sun God... does not sound very greek to me...


(What? You did not address the *Six point star*?) Me Yll në ballë Leka shoqi...

Some graves...



^In Albania. They probably symbolize hope, honor and faith, mIrite?

In Bosnia & Herzegovina 
v



(Anyone with any passion for symbolism can relate the Horns... Trinity... The Sun / Crescent Moon... and Duality from the above gravestones)

If you can't... here is a good read to get your head around pre-christian Religions and their diffusion in the ancient world.
(THE MESSAGE OF THE ALIEN GOD & THE BEGINNINGS OF CHRISTIANITYThe Gnostic ReligionHANS JONASTHIRD EDITION / 
Hans Jonas (1903-1993) was born and educated in Germany,where he was a pupil of Martin Heidegger and Rudolf Bultmann. He left in 1933, when Hitler came into power, and in 1940 joined the British Army in the Middle East. After the war he taught at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Carleton University in Ottawa, finally settling in the United States. He was the Alvin Johnson Professor of Philosophy on the Graduate Faculty of Political and Social Science at the New School for Social Research in New York. Professor Jonas was also author of, among other books, The Phenomenon of Life (1966). He died in 1993-)
(Wonderful book, if you really care about the religious/philosophical elements in ancient societies give it a read. At least the first couple of chapters IIRC dealing with Hellenism and Alexander as the main instigator of great cultural intercourse West-to-East and vice versa)

Also:

"Gnosticism *became the first group to be declared heresy*. Some scholars prefer to speak of "gnosis" when referring to first-century ideas that later developed into gnosticism, and to reserve the term "gnosticism" for the synthesis of these ideas into a coherent movement in the second century."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism)


PS:I am officially out of this thread. It is bad for my health and well-being. Deep down I know whatever the truth is it will come out with time. And teletubies can't stop that.

@Sile you provided me with the Strabo source which was helpful, I grant you that (Strabo LUL)... But this faith, hope, honor stuff? Where did you even get that? I am doing my best to provide at least some backing material for what I claim... be it living language, google translate, archeology, weapons, shields, heraldry, gods, gravestones... Videos by people who are much more read then me in Classical Greek, with 98% like/dislike ratio and a Million views, claiming what I say is factual. From scientific papers (new science per Yetos) to corroborated legends by multiple classical historians, black on white...




Meanwhile I have to deal with this "Napoleon picked the heraldry for Croatia", and "Eight pointed star means faith, hope courage".
Oki brv... Show me *one line* backing you up.

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## Sile

Each COA passes heraldry guilds around the world......all symbols have a meaning , every different colour of a symbol means something different as well,

so if the star was white and eight pointed and straight lines
....means different things if it was gold eight pointed and wavy lines
.
if it does not follow these rules , it is fake like any person doodling a COA

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## Yetos

I think the thread becomes more funny,  :Laughing: 

We should make a movie,  :Good Job:

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## Johane Derite

> Also this is quite interesting and important:






Ancient Macedonian "βάσκιοι" (Baskioi), "βασκευταί" (Baskeutai) in Hesychius of Alexanders' glossary is defined as being related to Latin. "Fasces".


The relation to this Albanian cognate below is outstanding, and much closer than the cognate from Ancient Greek φάσκωλος (pháskōlos, “leathern bag, sack”):


Albanian. "Bashkë" (together, simultaneously) (cognate with Lating. "Fasces")
Albanian. "Bashkoj" (unite, bring together)
Albanian. "Bashkësi" (community)
(As a prefix "bashkë-" = "co-" as in "bashkë-" + ‎punoj (“I work”) → ‎bashkëpunoj (“I collaborate”)


There is also another separate Albanian "Bashkë" word which means "fleece, bunch of wool".


Also related with:


Middle Irish basc (“collar, neck chain”)


(Fasces is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging. The fasces had its origin in the Etruscan civilization and was passed on to ancient Rome, where it symbolized a magistrate's power and jurisdiction.)






Etymology of both Albanian "Bashkë" versions. (Albanische Etymologien (Untersuchungen zum albanischen Erbwortschatz), Bardhyl Demiraj, Leiden Studies ):

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## Johane Derite

> Ancient Macedonian "βάσκιοι" (Baskioi), "βασκευταί" (Baskeutai) in Hesychius of Alexanders' glossary is defined as being related to Latin. "Fasces".
> 
> 
> The relation to this Albanian cognate below is outstanding, and much closer than the cognate from Ancient Greek φάσκωλος (pháskōlos, “leathern bag, sack”):
> 
> 
> Albanian. "Bashkë" (together, simultaneously) (cognate with Lating. "Fasces")
> Albanian. "Bashkoj" (unite, bring together)
> Albanian. "Bashkësi" (community)
> ...


The english word "Basket" has no suggested etymology, and i think it makes sense that its a cognate with Fasces, Bashkë, βάσκιοι, etc

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## Johane Derite

> The english word "Basket" has no suggested etymology, and i think it makes sense that its a cognate with Fasces, Bashkë, βάσκιοι, etc


The old physical anthropologists like Coon found "Dinaric" traits among the Dorians:



Albanian and Greek have many isoglosess between them that are not shared by any other Indo European language. This points to intense contact between Proto Greek & Proto Albanian in deep antiquity. The only place that comes to mind where such contact could have happened is Epirus where southern Illyrians and Dorian greeks could have intermingled. 

It would also explain those Albanian words in laconian folk vocabulary (found in Alcmans poems, see Krzysztof Witczak). 


These are just some recorded by Vladimir Orel:

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## Neander

Nobody can deny the link between dardans of europe and those of Troy.
There were many other tribes too: Moesians gave rise to mysians in Asia (also called mushki) 
Paeonians to Maeonians in Lydia
Thynes (Thunatae) to Bithynians
Bryges to Bebrykes or later Phryges
Sardeates from Dalmatia to Sardis in Anatolia, shardana in sea peoples and Sardinia
Sikulotes from Illyria to Shekelesh, Sicilia,
It was a whole population that went there in two waves: first was migration of Dardanians, and then migration of Sea Peoples which destroyed Mikena, Troy, Hittite Empire, Syria and Palestina but was defeated in Delta by Ramzes, and then retired to near east where they form Palestine
Even those Palestines came from Paleste (city in todays south Albania called Palasa), they went to Crete first and then to Palestine after defeat of Delta.

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## bigsnake49

Dardanoi were probably the tribe that lived in the city of Dardanus, on the Asian side of the Dardanelles strait. As such they were allies of the Trojans.

People also need to understand that the Iliad and Odyssey are not necessarily geographically precise. So lay off the migrations based on what Homer may or may not have said. For all we know Moesans and Mysians are exactly the same people living in exactly the same place. Unless there is some archaeological evidence to support your theories, that's all they are right now, theories.

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## exercitus

Hi actually, except the etymological issue, concerning the anthroponym - Bard (which, even if we consider trustworthy the phonetic development g* >*dz >*d > dh !, the BARZIDIHI, BARZIDES anthroponyms fits here perfectly as a missing link, knowing that the Messapian language was 'detached' from the Balkanic tongue "Illyrian", at least from the XI century BC ), what really impressed me is the issue of it's distribution, i will give you some wellknown examples; 

- Aurelius Bardibalus, Moesia Superiore II century AD (actually is a name with a typical Dacian structure, - balus (Decebalus, Gesubalus etc), but the fact that it contains - bard, suggests an "Illyrian" origin). - Liccae Bardi, the 'Illyrian' in Miseno II century AD
- Aplini Bardurio Pladomeni in Minicipium Riditarium II century AD https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...057890&lang=en
Rider - http://dare.ht.lu.se/places/41974.html
- Bardulos, Messapian - https://i.imgur.com/BgC3UiE.png
- Βαρδύλης \ Bardyli "Illyrian" King IV century BC etc.

so besides these cases - that create the impression that this anthroponym is distributed only in the Delmate and Dardanian inhabited areas as is pointed out in different discussions (for example by Katicic, Papazoglou, Alfoldy etc), in order to exclude the category of "Illyrii proprie dicti" - we also have some extraordinary interestingly examples, that I haven't found anyway quoted, even by the Albanian scholars, to be more concrete, i have encountered in the Greek inscriptions founded mostly in the territory of Ancient Macedonia, - you can check it in this site https://inscriptions.packhum.org/search?patt=bard - , few (- Bard) Anthroponyms, i will list them below;

- Bardi \ Βαρδίας Ἡρακλείδου in Beroia, I century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/149642?hs=99-104
from the book of A. Tataki "Ancient Prosopography of Beroea and Society" https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstr.../A01.008.0.pdf , i will quote some fragments;
1- Page 363 up; The foreign names in this group are represented by the Illyrian Βαρδείας\Bardi, which also occurs at Mieza, while the Illyrian Πλευρατος\Pleurat and the Thracian Σιτάλκης both occur again.
2- reference nr 248; . A. Struck, Μ27 (1902) 314 no. 28 line 12. See also I. Russu, EphDac 8 (1938) 179; cf. Krähe, Personennamen 16, Βάρδυλις|Bardyli, and in Thessalonike, Βαρδίων\Bardion, IG Χ 2, 1 781.
3- Page 430; . The former of these names is probably to be connected with the settlement of Illyrians at Beroea and other cities of Macedonia mentioned by Livy, and dated to the period of Antigonos Doson or Philip V.

- Bardi\Βαρδίας Ἡρο.. Mieza\Kopanos II century BC https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/151190?hs=520-525
- μημόριν Bardio \Βαρδίωνος παλατίνου Mygdonia Thessaloniki V century AD, - in the memory of Bardion* Palatinou - page 142 https://www.persee.fr/doc/bch_0304-2...3_sup_8_1_5246 , https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/137969?hs=88-93 
- eunuch Bardio*, in the service of Emperor Costance II, IV century AD ,https://books.google.it/books?id=f7y...bardio&f=false
- Δημήτριε Βαρδίλεως\Bardyleo* Kyme Aeolis Aegean shore , not dated https://inscriptions.packhum.org/tex...-138%2C218-223

We notice the appearing in the 'Historic Scene' after the 8th century AD, of the Barda (Varda) Armenian anthroponyms - for example, Barda Foka - in the progeny of the Byzantine dynasties of Armenian origin. Also in Gallia, Germany and North Noricum it is rarely encountered the Celtic patronymy (not Anthroponymy !!) -Bard, both Armenian and Celts, were far apart from the geographical and temporal point of view, so that we could attribute to these populations the Anthroponyms with - Bard root !!! The obvious conclusion is that the Bard\Bardio Anthroponyms in Ancient Macedonia were "Illyrian", probably from southern Illyria !!

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## exercitus

The second anthroponym, which has a clear and undeniable etymology, are the names with the basis - Ulc\Ulk, without much prolongation by considering also the Toponyms with the basis - Ulc\Ulk that are much more than the Anthroponyms (e.g Ulcinium, Ulcirus mons, Ulcisia Castra, Ulcea pal, Ulcianum etc) and are found exclusively in 'Illyrian-speaking' territories. A list of names as below;

- Ulca Procula, Siscia Pannonia II century AD, page 488 ;https://www.academia.edu/513800/Les_...rits_de_Siscia

- Ulcudius Beadari, Delmatian settler in Alburnus Maior, II century AD, page 115; https://www.academia.edu/2114854/THE...IN_ROMAN_DACIA

- Ουλκ(ου) ∙Τιου \ Ulku - Tiou, years 70-130 AD, a inscription discovered in Dragodan - Historic Thracia - few chilometres far from Ancient Dardania; https://inscriptions.packhum.org/text/301422?hs=83-88

The first name is typical "Illyrian" the second, typical Thracian, for more information about the Daco-Thracian Anthroponomy I suggest the writings of Svetlana Janakieva and Dan Dani !! Just to clarify a few things the name in greek - Οὐλκάκιος - correspond and is letterally the translation of the latin name - Volcacius - , that is why we should not confuse Οὐλκάκιος with Ουλκου - notice carefully the differences - !!

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## exercitus

Now about the Eastern & North & South Dardania-Moesia Superior, ethnic composition, few words;

from this site https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...Scupi&start=20 you can check the non-latin -i.e Thracian & Illyrian anthroponymy\ethnicity of the inhabitants of the southern Dardanian\ north-western Paeonia area - Scupi (Skopje-Shkupi), Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo),Lipkovo, Staro Nagoricane, Kacanik etc 

Scupi -(Skopje-Shkupi), 
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian, i will mention it also below!)
- Delus coniux / et Bithus filius ( Thracian )
- Delus Mucati filia ( Thracian )
- Valeria Lysimache marito ( Thracian )
from Viminacium, AD 196
- Marcus Aurelius Dassius* Scupis ( Illyrian )
- Bithus Scupis ( Thracian )
- Dardanus* Longinus et Longus fili ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Timoni Dassi* decurioni cohortis II Aureliae Dardanorum ( Illyrian Dardanian )
- Scupinorum et Aelia Genthiane** eius ( Illyrian )

Lipkovo ( eastern Scupi )
- Epicadus** Sacerdos ( Illyrian ) 


Staro Nagoričane ( north-eastern Bederiana !! )
- Gemelinus Dardanos* ( Illyrian Dardanian )


Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo !!)
- Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian )
- Iucunda / Bithi filia ( Thracian )
- Publius Aelius Balli/sta ( Illyrian ?)
in Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud,
- vectigalis Illyrici* servus contrascriptor stationis / Lamud(---) quam voverat contrascriptor stationis Viziani // Apollonidess Viziani // Gentiano** et Basso consulibus ( Illyrian )
- [------]/thae filius Bessus ( Thracian )


Kacanik ( north of Scupi)
- Ulpius Andinus* / et Aurelia ( Illyrian )
- Deo / Andino* ( Illyrian )

Bujanovac ( Southern Serbia ),
- Ulpia Andia ( Illyrian )

Aranđelovac ( central Serbia\Moesia Superior)
- Pinnes Dasi* vixit annos ( Illyrian)
- Aurelii Dasius* ( Illyrian )

Knjaževac (Timacus Maius & Minus, north-eastern Naissus ),
- Dassius* / veteranus (Illyrian )
- Flavio Bitho ( Thracian )
- Aurelius Bithus veteranus ( Thracian )
In this area in the inscriptions the - Cohors II Aurelia Dardanorum* - is mentioned 19 times ... instead the Cohors Thracorum only 6 times !!


Ražanj ( Dasminium* , Illyrian name of the Town north of Naissus !!)


Niš ( Naissus, Moesia Superior ),
- et Licinio filio Andiae * ( Illyrian )
- Annus Dasi* pater ( Illyrian )
- Gentione* ? qui ( Illyrian )

This is for all those who are convinced that there were No Illyrians in Eastern and North Dardania (Moesia Superior), today Central-south Serbia ...

----------


## torzio

> Now about the Eastern & North & South Dardania-Moesia Superior, ethnic composition, few words;
> 
> from this site https://edh-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.d...Scupi&start=20 you can check the non-latin -i.e Thracian & Illyrian anthroponymy\ethnicity of the inhabitants of the southern Dardanian\ north-western Paeonia area - Scupi (Skopje-Shkupi), Statio Vizianum & Statio Lamud -(Kumanovo),Lipkovo, Staro Nagoricane, Kacanik etc 
> 
> Scupi -(Skopje-Shkupi), 
> - Lumia Andia Dasi* filia ( Illyrian, i will mention it also below!)
> - Delus coniux / et Bithus filius ( Thracian )
> - Delus Mucati filia ( Thracian )
> - Valeria Lysimache marito ( Thracian )
> ...


it all depends on who you think the Paeonia people are ..............sitting south of the dardanians , but north of the macedonians
then
what about the halstatt culture mixture of celtic and illyrian circa 1000BC in noricum ( east austria ).............how far south did the celts get to before the romans landed in the balkans circa 200BC

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## bigsnake49

The Celts invaded the Balkans in the third century BC. They invaded Greece and were defeated in 2 great battles in Thermopylae and Delphi in 279. A division of Celts even crossed into Anatolia and settled in Galatia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic...utheast_Europe

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## Yetos

> The Celts invaded the Balkans in the third century BC. They invaded Greece and were defeated in 2 great battles in Thermopylae and Delphi in 279. A division of Celts even crossed into Anatolia and settled in Galatia.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic...utheast_Europe


these are the Gauls, 
offcourse Gauls are Celts.

There is a previous entrance of Celts from Noricum the Illyrian proprie.
the term Illyrian today has 2 meanings,
although in most ancient Greeks had 1 meaning.

Illyrian for most ancient Greeks were the Illyrian proprie people,
and they were Celtic origin,

the modern term, is because modern scholars can not distinguish Roman Illyricum, and Illyria proprie,
so many times the term has no meaning or is driving to wrong conclusions, especially to Greek paideia people.
for Greeks consider Illyria, only the Illyria proprie, same as Makedonia,
For us the Greeks the Roman Illyricum, and Roman Makedonia have different meaning

so for many modern scholars the term Illyrian has nothing to do with Illyrian proprie,
rather a wider term of Roman Illyricum, including Pannonia, Dalmatia etc,

Until scholars define the terms Illyrian, and Illyrian proprie,
misunderstandings will be a lot

Illyrian proprie were Celt, or Celtoids
Illyrians of Illyricum, is rather a more connected to area population, a more local Balcanic population,

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## Johane Derite

Matzinger, who doesn't even believe Albanian to be a direct descendant of Illyrian, but rather a contiguous sister language of it, says that Albanian is like illyrian and messapic. This means illyrian and messapic cannot be celtic languages, but are albanoid languages. So even the most critical skeptic linguists are now conceding this.

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## Johane Derite

"Not one of the peoples with whom we have to deal in this book has such aclaim to the epithet Balkan, as the Dardanians. Not only because theirterritory lay in the heart of the Balkans, but also because they appear as themost stable and most conservative ethnic element in the area whereeverything was exposed to constant change, and also because they, withtheir roots in the distant pre-Homeric age, and living on the frontiers ofthe Illyrian and Thracian worlds, retained their individuality and, aloneamong the peoples of that region, succeeded in maintaining themselvesas an ethnic unity even when they were militarily and politicallysubjugated by the Roman arms."

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## torzio

it is clear that proto-albanians came from Dardanians ................and where only mixed with thracians. illyrians, macedonians and paeonians after these peoples invaded the rich fertile lands of Dardanian moesia.......I would like to know if there is a true connection with the dardanians that lived on the dardanelles in bronze times

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## Johane Derite

One day you say its clear proto-Albs were epirotes, the next you say they were dardanians. The truth is both, the southernmost Albos descend from epirotes, the northern most from dardanians, central from taulantians, etc.

Dardanians linguistically were same as Illyrians, even if culturally they could have had different contacts.

Noel Malcolm:

"Kosovo itself was part of the tribal land of the Dardanians, who almost certainly belonged to the Illyrian grouping. 36


36. Stipcevic, Iliri, p. 30 and n.; Mirdita, Studime dardane, pp. 7-46; Papazoglu, Central Balkan Tribes, pp. 210-69. 

As Papazoglu notes, most ancient sources classify Dardanians as Illyrians. Her reasons for rejecting this identification in a later essay, 'Les Royaumes', are obscure. There were Thracian names in the eastern strip of Dardania, but Illyrian names dominated the rest; Katicic has shown that these belong with two other Illyrian 'onomastic provinces' (see his summary in Ancient Languages, pp. 179-81, and the evidence in Papazoglu, 'Dardanska onomastika').

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## valentinavalley2

I don’t want to sound like a ***** so I’ll be humble and say nothing. 

But if I want to honest, I believe that Dardania in Europe are actually connected to Dardanians of
Troy. The history and stories and names all fit in.


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## valentinavalley2

There are only 3 ways Dardanians of Troy can be related to Dardanians of present day Kosovo 
1. Dardanians of Kosovo migrates to Asia Minor 
2. Dardanians of Asia Minor migrated to dardania of Kosovo 
3 dardania was probably much bigger before reaching Asia Minor, Paoenians were probably Dardanians themselves.


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