# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  New paper about auDNA of current Iberia

## MOESAN

thanks to Bernard SECHER

lundi 11 fvrier 2019
*Structure gntique de la pninsule Ibrique* Par Bernard Scher le lundi 11 fvrier 2019, 19:01 - Gntique des populations 
La pninsule Ibrique est diverse linguistiquement. Elle a subi notamment une longue priode sous la loi Islamique. Clare Bycroft et ses collgues viennent de publier un papier intitul: Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula. Ils ont analys le gnome de 1413 individus Espagnols avec le logiciel fineStructure. Ce dernier a mis en vidence 145 groupes gntiques dont la distribution gographique rvle une structure gntique intressante de l'Espagne:


La premire bifurcation de l'arbre, spare des individus situs dans une petite rgion du sud-ouest de la Galice. La seconde bifurcation spare la population Basque du reste des populations Espagnoles. Le reste de l'arbre spare les groupes suivant un gradient est-ouest. Ces sparations suivent plus ou moins les rgions autonomes d'Espagne dans la direction est-ouest. Par contre ces rgions gntiques traversent les frontires des rgions Espagnoles dans la direction nord-sud. Ainsi la diffrentiation gntique suit un axe est-ouest alors qu'il y a une forte similarit gntique suivant l'axe nord-sud. De manire intressante l'inclusion d'individus du Portugal dans l'tude montre qu'ils se regroupent avec les individus de Galice et suivent ainsi galement la mme structure gnrale pour toute la pninsule Ibrique:


De manire intressante, la structure gntique de la pninsule Ibrique suit plus ou moins le dcoupage linguistique de la pninsule  diffrentes poques:

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## MOESAN

Une toute petite rgion de la Galice inclue une forte structure gntique: dans la province de Pontevedra, la diffrentiation gntique opre  des distances infrieures  10 km. Une forte structure gntique apparat galement dans le pays Basque, et dans la rgion de la Rioja dans la valle de l'Ebre.

Les auteurs ont ensuite tudi les relations entre la population de la pninsule Ibrique et les autres populations d'Europe, d'Afrique du Nord et d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne. Ils ont encore utilis le logiciel fineStructure pour identifier des groupes de la pninsule Ibrique comportant de l'ascendance issue des populations Europennes ou Africaines. Ils ont ainsi mis en vidence 29 groupes en dehors de la pninsule Ibrique et seulement six groupes de la pninsule Ibrique qui ont reu une contribution gntique extrieure, bien moins que les 145 groupes pralablement identifis: Pays Basque, Aragon/Catalogne, Centre, Ouest, Portugal/Andalousie et Galice/Portugal:


Ceci montre que la structure gntique de la pninsule Ibrique est principalement due a une isolation rgionale. Parmi les 29 groupes en dehors de la pninsule Ibrique, seuls six groupes ont une contribution suprieure  1% dans la pninsule Ibrique. Ces six groupes sont situs en Europe de l'Ouest, du Sud et en Afrique du Nord-Ouest: France, Italie, Irlande, Maroc et Sahara de l'Ouest:

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## MOESAN

Les groupes Europens contribuent de manire homogne dans les diffrentes rgions de la pninsule Ibrique  l'inverse du Maroc dont la contribution semble ainsi plus rcente. Les rgions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent les plus fortes contributions issues d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne.

Les auteurs ont ensuite utilis le logiciel GlobeTrotter pour dat les vnements de mlange gntique. Ainsi la plupart de ces contributions Europennes ou Africaines sont dates entre 860 et 1120 ap. JC. Les rgions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent un second vnement de mlange gntique avec l'Afrique Sub-Saharienne dat d'environ 300 ans. Les auteurs ont galement mis en vidence un mlange gntique des Basques avec d'autres rgions d'Espagne entre 1190 et 1514 ap. JC. Cette contribution Basque est plus forte dans les rgions voisines au pays Basque par rapport aux rgions plus loignes.

End of the Bernard SECHER abstract from the work of *Clare Bycroft* *et al* : Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula

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## Duarte

> Les groupes Europ�ens contribuent de mani�re homog�ne dans les diff�rentes r�gions de la p�ninsule Ib�rique � l'inverse du Maroc dont la contribution semble ainsi plus r�cente. Les r�gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent les plus fortes contributions issues d'Afrique Sub-Saharienne.
> 
> Les auteurs ont ensuite utilis� le logiciel GlobeTrotter pour dat� les �v�nements de m�lange g�n�tique. Ainsi la plupart de ces contributions Europ�ennes ou Africaines sont dat�es entre 860 et 1120 ap. JC. Les r�gions du Portugal et de l'Andalousie montrent un second �v�nement de m�lange g�n�tique avec l'Afrique Sub-Saharienne dat� d'environ 300 ans. Les auteurs ont �galement mis en �vidence un m�lange g�n�tique des Basques avec d'autres r�gions d'Espagne entre 1190 et 1514 ap. JC. Cette contribution Basque est plus forte dans les r�gions voisines au pays Basque par rapport aux r�gions plus �loign�es.
> 
> End of the Bernard SECHER abstract from the work of *Clare Bycroft* *et al* : Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula


Congratulations, MOESAN .Very interesting study so that we can think and reflect on the contribution of European and non-European peoples in the formation of modern Iberians. A new approach, which I did not know and which, of course, will generate much controversy among the most conservative, because it establishes a new paradigm for the analysis of the question. The approach of the subject of the presence of the DNA of Africa SSA in the Iberian Peninsula is still a taboo for many and it is good that there are studies on the subject, so that it is better debated in a open form and without extreme passions. I am not an gret expert in the beautuful French language, but I have been able to understand everything that is written. Good luck to this new thread that is begining today and that the discutions can be interesting, profitable, high level and without passions or prejudices.

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## Carlos

What seems strange to me is where the Arabs are or their genetics in this study. Al-Andalus must have arrived from all the Muslim territories in 800 years. How much mixed marriages occurred and also only Berber and Iberian to then influence the entire population taking into account that the expulsions were massive so that trace in the current Iberian population would be due to the converts. So how many converts would have been left to then genetically influence the entire population with genes from the Northwest of Africa and not from Arabs, bearing in mind that those Berbers themselves must already have a mixture with Arabs of the time when their own Arabs Islamized North Africa by forming mixed marriages at the beginning.


Also in the study they heal in health, alluding to the fact that in the North African population from which they have extracted the samples for comparison, they already contain European genetics.


What could 50,000 Berbers and then 3,000 Arabs have arrived? How many mixed marriages were carried out in Al-Andalus? The expulsions are known to have been massive, there were also converts and probably many emigrated to Galicia. The Arab Arabs left all, not one was left?


Something does not fit here. Do you know who has funded this study?

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## Carlos

*It is estimated that the inhabitants who took refuge in the northern valleys after the Muslim invasion were about 500,000, an authentic overpopulation for the area and its resources.*

On the other hand if 500,000 of the so-called "Mozarabic" Hispano-Romans, Hispano-Visigoths moved to the north after the arrival of the Almoravids, they would have genetically influenced the population of northern Spain, so in the reconquest and subsequent repopulation would return to occupy the area from which they left and from where they were native before the arrival of the Muslims.


If the North African genes in the current population of the Iberian West are fixed 300 years ago, did the converts have 200 years to inseminate all of the Iberian West?

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## nanelsiko

hmm. can i help with it? or not? please write PW.

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## MOESAN

@Duarte
Hello!
I 've no merit in all this, I did only copy the B. Scher abstract already written in French (I hope it will be understandable for the most of us here, because it's "international" French as for every scientific topic).
I just looked at it very quickly and I vn't put too much of my brain in it yet.
Just I 've some doubts about the reliability and precision of these admixtures events datations, if I don't doubt they have some reality. NOw, someones will have surely some remarks to do about the precise quality of the SSA or Moroccan DNA alleged. (I suppose it's based upon today pops so an Arab componant could be present among the 'Moroccan' component?
I opened this thread for the ones who are very interested in this question (a hot one, sometimes!), but itsn't my first focus (I've hard work to try to understad the BB's period).
As you I hope it 'll not turn into a forum war as too often.

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## MOESAN

The question is maybe not without link with a paper about ancient DNA in Paleogenetics reported by Angela in the thread:
*Western migration route from Africa into Iberia*

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## Duarte

> @Duarte
> Hello!
> I 've no merit in all this, I did only copy the B. S�cher abstract already written in French (I hope it will be understandable for the most of us here, because it's "international" French as for every scientific topic).
> I just looked at it very quickly and I vn't put too much of my brain in it yet.
> Just I 've some doubts about the reliability and precision of these admixtures events datations, if I don't doubt they have some reality. NOw, someones will have surely some remarks to do about the precise quality of the SSA or Moroccan DNA alleged. (I suppose it's based upon today pops so an Arab componant could be present among the 'Moroccan' component?
> I opened this thread for the ones who are very interested in this question (a hot one, sometimes!), but itsn't my first focus (I've hard work to try to understad the BB's period).
> As you I hope it 'll not turn into a forum war as too often.


Thanks for the clarifications, MOESAN. In fact, mention is made of the medieval contribution brought by the Moors (in this case, North African DNA) in the fase of occupation of the peninsula from the 8th century to the end of the 15th century. This part is already known. The great novelty is a supposed sub-Saharan contribution some 300 years ago that, although not clarified in the text, could only have come from African slaves brought to the colonial Portuguese and Spanish americas and also by African slaves who would have been taken to Iberia, in same colonial period. Like you, I hope that the topic does not become a war for this reason. LOL. For me the french used in the text is very clear and all those who speak some Latin language will not have difficulties to understand it. Big hug.

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## Carlos

http://www.madrimasd.org/notiweb/not...tVhiSi8MzFPM0k

A study conducted in Cueva Bajondillo (Torremolinos, Malaga) by a team of researchers from Spain, Japan and the United Kingdom reveals that modern humans replaced the Neanderthals some 44,000 years ago.


This fact shows that the replacement of Neandertals by modern humans in southern Iberia is an early, not a late, phenomenon in the context of Western Europe.

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## Carlos

I would also like to launch the vision of the reconquest from a perspective that is never contemplated and is the 500,000 displaced native of the south who had moved to the north of Spain after the Almorávide arrival, I think that they should be the engine of the reconquest because the term "reconquista" really makes sense in them. Perhaps without their presence in the north of Spain there would not have been a feeling of "reconquest" since the lands of the south of the peninsula had never belonged to the northern area of Spain . So I think of the displaced natives of the south of the peninsula as the engine of the reconquest and later repopulation which is nothing other than returning home, to the place from which one day they had to leave.

_*Also I will send the above document to the CSIC to investigate the origin of the financing of the study that is allegedly trying to fit the pieces in modern political interests contrary to the unity of Spain._

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## Duarte

> I would also like to launch the vision of the reconquest from a perspective that is never contemplated and is the 500,000 displaced native of the south who had moved to the north of Spain after the Almorávide arrival, I think that they should be the engine of the reconquest because the term "reconquista" really makes sense in them. Perhaps without their presence in the north of Spain there would not have been a feeling of "reconquest" since the lands of the south of the peninsula had never belonged to the northern area of Spain . So I think of the displaced natives of the south of the peninsula as the engine of the reconquest and later repopulation which is nothing other than returning home, to the place from which one day they had to leave.
> 
> _*Also I will send the above document to the CSIC to investigate the origin of the financing of the study that is allegedly trying to fit the pieces in modern political interests contrary to the unity of Spain._


Hello Carlos. 
My silence about your placements does not mean I'm ignoring you. On the contrary, I respect him very much and have learned to admire him in this short period of time that I am here in Eupedia forum. I am only punctuating what I read, without agreeing or disagreeing, even because I am not European and I do not know enough the history of Spain so that I can issue any qualified opinion. I prefer that the true interested , the Spaniards like you, manifest themselves. I'm just seeing and learning. At this moment, for me, everything here is apprenticeship. Warm greetings from a Brazilian who loves Iberia and is very proud of the legacy left by the Iberians in the Americas.

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## Carlos

^^^^
Thanks, we need Iberians in America and America that honor their origin and their history. I have already seen in recent decades how a macro campaign has been carried out among the Ibero-American natives against their own history, where it has happened in a few decades of seeing ourselves as the motherland to revile and reject discovery and conquest. I know very well what is the origin of that campaign and the objectives it pursues. That is why the role of Iberian Americans like you is of vital importance and I believe many more in maintaining a constructive vision of the joint history of Ibero-American countries, including Portugal and Spain, and that would benefit us so much in the future at all levels. , for this reason I urge you not to decay and keep the banner of Iberia alive in America against the enemies who try to destroy our alliances inoculating in the current populations the gratuitous hatred towards Iberia and then also revile the modern history of the speaking countries Hispanic, which is the marketing and advertising system that they are currently employing for modern societies in South America. So I urge you to turn your eyes back to the motherland where the truth lies about what was and what will be.

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## Duarte

> ^^^^
> Thanks, we need Iberians in America and America that honor their origin and their history. I have already seen in recent decades how a macro campaign has been carried out among the Ibero-American natives against their own history, where it has happened in a few decades of seeing ourselves as the motherland to revile and reject discovery and conquest. I know very well what is the origin of that campaign and the objectives it pursues. That is why the role of Iberian Americans like you is of vital importance and I believe many more in maintaining a constructive vision of the joint history of Ibero-American countries, including Portugal and Spain, and that would benefit us so much in the future at all levels. , for this reason I urge you not to decay and keep the banner of Iberia alive in America against the enemies who try to destroy our alliances inoculating in the current populations the gratuitous hatred towards Iberia and then also revile the modern history of the speaking countries Hispanic, which is the marketing and advertising system that they are currently employing for modern societies in South America. So I urge you to turn your eyes back to the motherland where the truth lies about what was and what will be.


I agree with everything you said, Carlos. 
For a long time I have been saddened with fact to attribute all the ills of Brazil to the fact that we were colonized by the Portuguese. And many of those who say this are not Iberians of origin. Today my sadness has turned into indignation and in all the social circles of which I participate I make it a point to demonstrate this indignation by demanding respect for our culture traditionally and originally Iberian. A great legacy of Portugal, which all have to respect, especially those who arrived in the country between the mid-nineteenth century and the mid-twentieth century, when, by the way, were cordially received.

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## Ygorcs

Fascinating study. I think its results are mostly very plausible, and the way they are presented looks credible. Though the precision of datings and admixture proportions may be questioned, the broad results fit perfectly well with historic events and periods that have been documented. The minor Subsaharan influx about 300 years ago makes sense not just because it is known that African slaves were brought to Portugal (which is what I really know, but I am sure in Andalusia similar processes happened) to work on plantations and even domestic work, but aside from that I think much of this ancestry may have actually come from mixed Brazilians, often children of Portuguese temporary immigrants to the American colony, who eventually went to live in Portugal and remained there. There were also Brazilian whites with minor Subsaharan ancestry who went to study and work in Portugal, and some stayed there. A classic example of how this Subsaharan wave may have happened can be found in the history of the famous slave-turned-wealthy lady Chica da Silva, whose sons she bore to her wealthy diamond dealer and Portuguese husband (though not formally married) followed their father when he was summoned to go back to Portugal, and some of them even came to have important positions in the Portuguese bureaucracy.

As for the Arab and Berber ancestry, I think they compared the Iberian genetic clusters with the modern Moroccan population, so that the Northwest African component already encompasses some Arab Southwest Asian ancestry. What the results imply to me is that the presence of "true" Arabs from Asia was negligible in Al-Andalus or at least the Christianized converts and the Christians who had mixed occasionally with the Muslim conquerors (that must also have happened plenty of times, either consensually or not). The bulk of the "Arabs" must have been fully Arabized Maghrebis with a lot of Berber ancestry mixed with new Southwest Asian arrivals, and the Berbers, who notoriously had a sort of ethnic rivalry with Arabs in Al-Andalus, were those who retained their ethnic and perhaps even linguistic identity (bilinguals) and probably mixed less with the Arabs. Thus the best proxy for the Muslim foreigners in Iberia may be the present-day Moroccans, who also received the same introgression of Southwest Asians and other Muslim areas, but only as a minority of the population.

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## Angela

This is where we discussed the pre-print. The English version of the paper is used.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...analysis+Spain

There doesn't seem to be any difference between the two versions.

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## Duarte

> This is where we discussed the pre-print. The English version of the paper is used.
> 
> https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...analysis+Spain
> 
> There doesn't seem to be any difference between the two versions.


Thanks for the additional clarifications, Angela. 
In fact the content of the French and English versions is the same, with some minor additions in the temporality of the events in the French version. When the English version only talks of "the recent pulse of subSaharanAfrican DNA”, without specify dates, the French version states that this recent pulse of SSA DNA was about three hundred years ago. Regards.

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## MOESAN

Ouf! It's not completely useless! (dates)
But Angela is right: one map awaked some "souvenir" in my head, but as I had only a superficial look at the previous similar thread and here there were more maps, I supposed it was a different paper or a complementary one (I have no remembrance of the authors names). Sorry, I can less and less follow the numerous threads. I hope it would not be a problem. The best to do would be to join both?

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## Carlos

We are in 2019 and I would be the first to put the photo of a hypothetical black ancestor, but the issue is that this award to the Andalusian population of that black ancestry 300 years ago I think is poorly explained, manipulated or distorted in the treatment that the text about the study is given.
That the port of Seville, Cadiz and Malaga were the most active in the traffic and sale of blacks to South America and other European countries is something that we already knew as well as that some many or few stayed in Andalusia and other places in Spain as slaves mainly in the cities, but the laws and mentality of that time is not that of today and it is also known that they had the forbidden marriage and that among them there was a strong inbreeding and that when these people did not serve the owner because they were already old and useless for work they were abandoned in the street, there was a person in Seville who gave them shelter. These slaves during all this time could not create mixed marriages because they were slaves, they belonged to the lowest social stratum of society, the strong inbreeding and their status as slaves ended up suffocating them. Although it is true that when slavery is eradicated in Spain the blacks who had to stay in the cities are moved to other areas such as Gibraleon and some other people, there they are free but as you know they live in ghettos and generally intersect with the gypsy race, over time probably have been mixed with Iberians, but in two towns and a half of Andalusia that has thousands of villages. Now if the samples have been collected in Gibraleón and some other population that are known were these freedmen and in the treatment of the article is not specified as exceptional but is directly attributed to Andalusia in its entirety because it is like adjudging the percent of E-M81 for all of Spain because 44% of the passages are from this haplogroup.

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## Carlos

It is incomprehensible that someone in Europe can believe or think that black slaves left a genetic imprint 300 years ago in Andalusian society, how do you think that society should be? for it would have the same prejudices as if those same blacks place them in any other region of central Europe, France, e.t.c. If we move this Chinese story instead of in Andalusia to any other part of Europe would they be willing to believe it?
Is it unimaginable, poor blacks torn from their continent, when they arrive in Andalusia they do not know the language, there are biological prejudices because of the color of their skin, they belong to the lowest strata of society, at what moment do they start to go to Andalusian parents to ask for the hands of their daughters? if the marriage between slaves was prohibited and slavery in Spain was eradicated approximately 130 years ago.

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## Ygorcs

> It is incomprehensible that someone in Europe can believe or think that black slaves left a genetic imprint 300 years ago in Andalusian society, how do you think that society should be? for it would have the same prejudices as if those same blacks place them in any other region of central Europe, France, e.t.c. If we move this Chinese story instead of in Andalusia to any other part of Europe would they be willing to believe it? Is it unimaginable, poor blacks torn from their continent, when they arrive in Andalusia they do not know the language, there are biological prejudices because of the color of their skin, they belong to the lowest strata of society, at what moment do they start to go to Andalusian parents to ask for the hands of their daughters? if the marriage between slaves was prohibited and slavery in Spain was eradicated approximately 130 years ago.


 I think you're not being imaginative enough and resorting to some conspiratorial thinking as if people really wanted to assign Subsaharan ancestry to Andalusians without any real evidence (and why would they do that? Is that a bad thing?). The relatively recent contribution from Subsaharan African ancestry (ancestry - not necessarily Subsaharan people) is extremely minor, you would not need many instances of individual admixture to achieve that. People who belong to the lowest strata of society managed to make children with other people of the lowest strata of society especially when they are a tiny and scattered minority. They do not necessarily need to "ask for the hands of the daughters of Andalusian parents". If it was remotely close to the racial mixing in Latin America, it was certainly much more the case of the white man asking for the hand of the daughter of black parents. No, even that would have been much rarer. In fact, a lot of concubinage, out of marriage sex, or even rape happened, and many would have born children to white men as their mistresses, not lawful wives, so prohibition of interracial marriage would not have stopped that anyways. Finally, you should also think that it is perfectly possible that much of that Subsaharan ancestry actually introgressed into the Andalusian gene pool via Hispanic American criollos and mestizos with some amount of African ancestry (and I presume many visited the port cities of that region during the colonial era), and not directly via African slaves. Those people would not have found it as hard to marry local wives and husbands, because they were not visibly black, and that ancestry would get increasingly diluted in the following generations away from any additional African input.

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## Duarte

Unknown history of Portugal: the mulattoes of Sado.


Part of Portugal's history is still unknown to many of us. In century XVI the valley of the Sado was populated with slaves.


For centuries Lezíria and Ribeira do Sado were an uninhabited territory, with a reputation for unhealthiness, surrounded by heaths.


In the century XVI, many Portuguese boarded the ships, which further aggravated the existing demographic deficit. That was the reason why, at that time, the owners of the fertile lands bathed by the Sado would have resolved to populate them with negroes, bought in the slave markets. The mulattoes of the Sado of our day are therefore descendants of these former black slaves.


Whoever now walks along the Ribeira do Sado, you will no longer see truly black people before your eyes.


The miscegenation has already consummated itself completely. But the physiognomic features observable in many of the region's inhabitants, as well as the darker color of their skin, are immediately evident, and they immediately refer us to Africa south of the Sahara

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## Carlos

*To Ygorcs

*At present anyone can have a refrigerator, an iron, a washing machine, e.t.c. even many unskilled workers may have a housekeeper, but at that time 300 years ago very few could have black slaves and if there were mulatto children they would have remained slaves. In Seville blacks were allowed to have a brotherhood of Holy Week in the 19th century it is known that there were very few, slavery was still in force and it was impossible for these slaves to enter into marriage with native Andalusians. In the 19th century I do not think there was a mentality prepared for something like that either. We invite you to the wedding to be held with my daughter and a slave or vice versa. We are more than 8 million Andalusians and pretending that the Andalusian population has black ancestry 300 years ago is unfeasible as you can say Oxford Cambridge or the mother of the lamb. In those same Andalusian ports the native population had seen the departure of thousands of expelled Moors, had seen the persecution and expulsion of Jews, could have lived the taboo or fear of hiding any Jewish or Moorish ascendant to think that poor black slaves arrive and they get mixed with the Andalusian population. About Native American slaves it is true that they also arrived in Spain, but Queen Elizabeth gave them freedom immediately to prevent Columbus from exercising that right since she was the queen and she commanded, so the few or many Native Americans who arrived to Spain were free. Isabel l demonstrated on many occasions great humanity as she also freed the Catalan peasantry from the high abusive taxes to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. As soon as they find out in Oxford they locate the population where their descendants should be now and they put us quickly 10% of Native American, by my parate there is no problem, but apparently there must be sectors, someone or some alguinenes that are interested in lying about Andalusia or Spain to the tests I refer.

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## Carlos

[CITA = Duarte; 567347] Historia desconocida de Portugal: los mulatos de Sado. 


Parte de la historia de Portugal aún es desconocida para muchos de nosotros. En el siglo XVI el valle del Sado estaba poblado de esclavos. 


Durante siglos, Lezíria y Ribeira do Sado fueron un territorio deshabitado, con una reputación de insalubridad, rodeado de brezales. 


En el siglo XVI, muchos portugueses abordaron los barcos, lo que agravó aún más el déficit demográfico existente. Esa fue la razón por la que, en ese momento, los propietarios de las fértiles tierras bañadas por el Sado habrían resuelto poblarlos con negros, comprados en los mercados de esclavos. Los mulatos del Sado de nuestros días son, por lo tanto, descendientes de estos antiguos esclavos negros.


Quienquiera que ahora camina a lo largo de la Ribeira do Sado, ya no verá a personas verdaderamente negras ante sus ojos. 


El mestizaje ya se ha consumado por completo. Pero las características fisonómicas observables en muchos de los habitantes de la región, así como el color más oscuro de su piel, son evidentes de inmediato, y de inmediato nos remiten a África al sur del Sahara [/ QUOTE]

In Spain these blacks the few who would have retired from the cities to some rural area when slavery is abolished about 130 years ago. It is real, it is known, it exists, but I see the specific and very localized events. In the case of Spain or Andalusia is recent from the 19th century when also in specific cases begin to mix, are small or medium-sized people to be attributed to the current Andalusian population as I said we are more than 8 million inhabitants, that is why I say that if the same case we moved to France or another country in central Europe the treatment of the news would be different, but as it is in Andalusia, that place where the Moors were Oh, how exotic, is not like the rest of Europe, how easy it must have been to mix, I already told you that in this case it would have been even more difficult than any other region in Europe due to all the social events that Andalusian society of the time would have experienced with the homogeneity of a society that had to be Christian , be pure of blood, hide any Jewish ancestor, Moorish, etc as if to think that black slaves in a country where there were laws of slavery were going to get a sub-Saharan genetic trace 300 years ago.

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## Duarte

> [CITA = Duarte; 567347] Historia desconocida de Portugal: los mulatos de Sado. 
> 
> 
> Parte de la historia de Portugal aún es desconocida para muchos de nosotros. En el siglo XVI el valle del Sado estaba poblado de esclavos. 
> 
> 
> Durante siglos, Lezíria y Ribeira do Sado fueron un territorio deshabitado, con una reputación de insalubridad, rodeado de brezales. 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello Carlos. 
I understand your point of view. It is based on historical and sociological factual elements and infers the exclusion that a person of black appearance would suffer in a classic society of whites. It's a pretty logical deduction. In Brazil segregation is also based in the appearance. The genotype does not matter here, because only one laboratory sees the genotype. Here matters is the phenotype, because the eyes see is the phenotype. If we were to follow the classical definition of the white American supremacists that a drop of black blood is enough to be black, there would be no whites in Brazil. My clear skin, my clear eyes and my height of 1.82 meters and my Caucasian appearance too would not be enough to I be declared a white man in the US because I have SSA DNA. I married a female descendant of Italians and my son is even whiter than me. If he takes a DNA test will also be apointed that he has SSA DNA. Unfortunately no Brazilian university would accept him on the quota reserved for blacks just because it has a few drops of SSA DNA. For all practical and legal purposes in Brazil he is white and would be accused of ideological falsehood if he attempted any vacancy reserved for blacks in public tender or public universities in Brazil simply because he, the father and the mother, do not look like blacks. Here in Brazil one drop is not enough .... 
Greetings, a big hug, a nice Sunday and a nice week.

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## Angela

I think one shouldn't assume that it was the male who admixed or that all admixture was consensual. The United States is a prime example, and so is the Middle East. In the U.S. 99% of the time the "admixture" was between "white" men and SSA slaves. If the female descendants of the SSA woman continued to "admix" with white men, the "phenotype" could be gone in four generations. That could be as little as 100 years.

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## MOESAN

@Ygorcs
agree it would be possible at the margins; let's look at apartheidists "white" South-Africans with SSA genes (other thread here): a man can look pure "something" but have exotic genes not acting on his phenotype - I don't give my thought about the study I took a look only , but your arguments are not without sense.

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## MOESAN

Sorry all of yours. I 'm getting old, and I answer to the first post I read (pulsion) without to look at the subsequent ones. And I make kind of "plagia" of other answers. Sad...

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## Ygorcs

> *To Ygorcs
> 
> *At present anyone can have a refrigerator, an iron, a washing machine, e.t.c. even many unskilled workers may have a housekeeper, but at that time 300 years ago very few could have black slaves and if there were mulatto children they would have remained slaves. In Seville blacks were allowed to have a brotherhood of Holy Week in the 19th century it is known that there were very few, slavery was still in force and it was impossible for these slaves to enter into marriage with native Andalusians. In the 19th century I do not think there was a mentality prepared for something like that either. We invite you to the wedding to be held with my daughter and a slave or vice versa. We are more than 8 million Andalusians and pretending that the Andalusian population has black ancestry 300 years ago is unfeasible as you can say Oxford Cambridge or the mother of the lamb. In those same Andalusian ports the native population had seen the departure of thousands of expelled Moors, had seen the persecution and expulsion of Jews, could have lived the taboo or fear of hiding any Jewish or Moorish ascendant to think that poor black slaves arrive and they get mixed with the Andalusian population. About Native American slaves it is true that they also arrived in Spain, but Queen Elizabeth gave them freedom immediately to prevent Columbus from exercising that right since she was the queen and she commanded, so the few or many Native Americans who arrived to Spain were free. Isabel l demonstrated on many occasions great humanity as she also freed the Catalan peasantry from the high abusive taxes to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. As soon as they find out in Oxford they locate the population where their descendants should be now and they put us quickly 10% of Native American, by my parate there is no problem, but apparently there must be sectors, someone or some alguinenes that are interested in lying about Andalusia or Spain to the tests I refer.


So basically a black population existed until the late 19th century but it just completely disappeared in the 20th century without leaving any descendancy at all, it simply died out with no vestiges? If there are not many native blacks in the region, nor many white people with not even a tiny bit of Subsaharan ancestry, then the implication is that that population never reproduced at all. 

Again, I continue to think you are ignoring the possibility that that Subsaharan ancestry introgressed via non-black criollos and mestizos from the Spanish colonies in the Americas, especially Cuba, which was under Spanish rule for much longer than most of the rest of Hispanic America. If the situation during the colonial era was any close to what happen between Brazil and Portugal, many sons and daughters of important people of the bureaucratic, landowner and trade elites of the colonies - many of them slightly mixed with Africans and natives - went to study and work in the "metropolis", and some of them never came back, especially those who were children of European-born people. Anyways, I do not believe like you that they are just trying hard to identify a Subsaharan influx that is not there. If it exists, it exists, and all we can do is hypothesize how it ended up there.

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## Carlos

^^

There was that black community of slaves is a fact just as they also bought for other parts of Europe. Other Europeans came to the port of Seville, Malaga or Cádiz to buy black slaves.
I do not believe that socio-political conditions allowed that community to develop. Marriage between themselves was forbidden, even so they maintained a strong inbreeding. When they were old they were abandoned on the street.


Of the brotherhood of Holy week composed by blacks it is known that in the 19th century there were very few and even they entered targets to that brotherhood so that it was maintained.


That there were black women who could be pregnant by their white "owners", also their children would be slaves and they would continue to belong to the lowest substratum of the society and in addition those mulattos could have procreated again with blacks and of turning white in 100 years much prisan they had to have given to copulate and ovulate with all Andalusia, thousands of towns, villages and cities to leave a genetic fingerprint in Andalusia.


In 1837 the slavery in Spain is abolished, the blacks of the cities are desplanzan to two towns or little more of the coast of Huelva and Cádiz, still there they will live in ghettos and as much they will be mixed with the gypsies with which they share the neighborhood or ghetto.


The years go by and the accounts do not come out.


It is not the same to say that in Gibraleón and some other population of Andalusia a certain sub-Saharan percent is obtained that even even in those specific populations it is impossible to be fixed 300 years ago, than to attribute it to the whole of Andalusia where there will be cases but Exceptional


Gentlemen, the accounts do not come out. There are these data in specific populations or exceptional cases outside of these populations where we do know that there were black communities but you can not sell these motorcycles for the whole of Andalusia as I have shown with my socio-political data of the Andalusia of the time.

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## Angela

> So basically a black population existed until the late 19th century but it just completely disappeared in the 20th century without leaving any descendancy at all, it simply died out with no vestiges? If there are not many native blacks in the region, nor many white people with not even a tiny bit of Subsaharan ancestry, then the implication is that that population never reproduced at all. 
> 
> Again, I continue to think you are ignoring the possibility that that Subsaharan ancestry introgressed via non-black criollos and mestizos from the Spanish colonies in the Americas, especially Cuba, which was under Spanish rule for much longer than most of the rest of Hispanic America. If the situation during the colonial era was any close to what happen between Brazil and Portugal, many sons and daughters of important people of the bureaucratic, landowner and trade elites of the colonies - many of them slightly mixed with Africans and natives - went to study and work in the "metropolis", and some of them never came back, especially those who were children of European-born people. Anyways, I do not believe like you that they are just trying hard to identify a Subsaharan influx that is not there. If it exists, it exists, and all we can do is hypothesize how it ended up there.


Exactly right. If it's there it's there. SSA is very divergent compared to Eurasian ancestry. It shows up; there's no denying it.

What remains is to figure out how it happened.

We have an odd sort of example in the U.S.: the Melungeons. 

The closest anyone can figure it out is that they formed from mostly white female indentured servants and male white and SSA indentured servants in the very first years after blacks started being imported. At that time there was no big distinction made between white and black indentured servants and even the blacks were released after a period of service. 

As the laws and their restrictions on black and black admixed people became more stringent, a group of these families started moving further and further into the hinterlands, the "frontier", to try to get away from those restrictions. As time passed, they absorbed more white members. Some moved out of Melungeon communities and into the greater population. Still, even in the 1800s, the people who still identified as "Melungeon" demonstrably didn't look "American white", and they started to make up stories that they were Jews or Portuguese or gypsies, or part Native American, anything that might explain their phenotype other than that they were black admixed. As "civilization" caught up to them they sued to get or maintain voting rights and classification as "white". 

Today, a few of their communities still remain, and some of their members still deny their ancestry, especially now that they are almost indistinguishable from their neighbors. Although some of them carry SSA yDna, the number of them with measurable SSA autosomal ancestry is the minority, and even where it exists it's small. So, in a way I guess you could say that they disappeared, but it was a gradual process, and their descendants can be found, usually through surnames and genealogical research.

The world has changed so much that now people want to be related to these families.








One of their descendants, and sometimes a spokesman

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## Carlos

^^^^
But *all* will not be able to be related to these families concrete, specific and exceptional.

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## Ygorcs

> ^^
> 
> There was that black community of slaves is a fact just as they also bought for other parts of Europe. Other Europeans came to the port of Seville, Malaga or Cádiz to buy black slaves.
> I do not believe that socio-political conditions allowed that community to develop. Marriage between themselves was forbidden, even so they maintained a strong inbreeding. When they were old they were abandoned on the street.
> 
> 
> Of the brotherhood of Holy week composed by blacks it is known that in the 19th century there were very few and even they entered targets to that brotherhood so that it was maintained.
> 
> 
> ...


I think your account sounds reasonable enough, the genetic impact of that populatim would probably have been extremely tiny either way even if they intermarried extensively with the locals. I still wonder, though, what on earth happened to those people, given that they were there even in the later 19th century, and they must have not had such a huge death rate as compared to their birth rate to make them disappear physically, and not just through gradual dilution of their distinctive phenotype, even during the "modern" 20th century. 

But then, since the African genetic fingerprint is there, at least in the areas of Andalusia that gave samples to this study, we need to find another explanation to it. I will still bet on the back-migration of African-admixed Hispanic white/whiteish people during the colonial era until more plausible hypotheses are given.  :Smiling:

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## nuno77

Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626329

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## nuno77

> Unknown history of Portugal: the mulattoes of Sado.
> 
> 
> Part of Portugal's history is still unknown to many of us. In century XVI the valley of the Sado was populated with slaves.
> 
> 
> For centuries Lezíria and Ribeira do Sado were an uninhabited territory, with a reputation for unhealthiness, surrounded by heaths.
> 
> 
> ...





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VlrrZRWub8


Alcacér do Sal is a municipality that has 13 046 inhaitants (2011 Census). 


"grande herança genética dos mouros e dos negros" 

How accurate would this be? Can a person use a small municipality in the South of Portugal to extrapolate as "grande"?

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## Carlos

> *Ygorcs* Creo que su cuenta suena bastante razonable, el impacto genético de esa población probablemente habría sido extremadamente pequeño en ambos sentidos, incluso si se casaran ampliamente con los lugareños. Sin embargo, aún me pregunto qué pasó con esas personas, dado que estuvieron allí incluso a fines del siglo XIX, y no deben haber tenido una tasa de mortalidad tan alta en comparación con su tasa de natalidad para hacer que desaparezcan físicamente, y no solo a través de la dilución gradual de su fenotipo distintivo, incluso durante el "moderno" siglo XX.
> 
> Pero entonces, como la huella genética de África está ahí, al menos en las áreas de Andalucía que dieron muestras de este estudio, necesitamos encontrar otra explicación. Seguiré apostando a la migración hacia atrás de personas hispanas / blancas hispanas mezcladas con africanos durante la era colonial hasta que se den hipótesis más plausibles.


I have been investigating and there is no Spanish American emigration. There is a great masculine mobility within Andalusia itself 18th century and also from Galicia, Cantabria and the Algarve towards Andalusia. From the 19th century, the area became a clear emigrant to America, not the reverse, in any case that I have foun:

http://pares.mcu.es/MovimientosMigra...wName=historia

Net migration in Andalusia in the transition from the 17th century to the XlX
http://rabida.uhu.es/dspace/bitstrea...pdf?sequence=2

I honestly have an intuition and I do not know what they have done with the cluster: Portugal-Andalusia, the substitute population of Nigeria and the adjustment of curves.


I do not know what they have done there but it is also possible that they were wrong I refer to the facts, what starts bad ends badly.

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## Duarte

> Sorry all of yours. I 'm getting old, and I answer to the first post I read (pulsion) without to look at the subsequent ones. And I make kind of "plagia" of other answers. Sad...


Hello MOESAN,
Thanks for the indication of a thread for reading.
I found the indicated *thread: Admixture in "White Africaners".*
It was started by Angela on 09/22/17, 4:24 pm and, in fact, is very interesting.
Greetings.

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## Duarte

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VlrrZRWub8
> 
> 
> Alcacér do Sal is a municipality that has 13 046 inhaitants (2011 Census). 
> 
> 
> "grande herança genética dos mouros e dos negros" 
> 
> How accurate would this be? Can a person use a small municipality in the South of Portugal to extrapolate as "grande"?


Hello Nuno. 

In fact, it is not correct to do extrapolations, that is, to take the part for the whole. It’s can’t to treat the sampling of a specific region as if it were representative of an entire country. 

I send you a video in Portuguese that approach the genetics of the Portuguese people from the perspective of Portuguese and Spanish geneticists. A big hug:
 
https://youtu.be/dACxYqQJIDU

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## nuno77

> Hello Nuno. 
> 
> In fact, it is not correct to do extrapolations, that is, to take the part for the whole. It’s can’t to treat the sampling of a specific region as if it were representative of an entire country. 
> 
> I send you a video in Portuguese that approach the genetics of the Portuguese people from the perspective of Portuguese and Spanish geneticists. A big hug:
>  
> https://youtu.be/dACxYqQJIDU


Olá Duarte, 

those 2 videos are ancient and they really don't focus on haplogroups. I view them as "romantic" videos that talk about History in a very pink perspective and keep going on and on about the melting pot. They seem to be more ideologic than scientific.
The study "Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages." is from 2006, but it tries to analyse the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Portuguese districts. 
Portugal is very much a R1b majority country.

P.S. - O Brasil vem jogar no Porto com o Panamá!

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## Duarte

> Olá Duarte, 
> 
> those 2 videos are ancient and they really don't focus on haplogroups. I view them as "romantic" videos that talk about History in a very pink perspective and keep going on and on about the melting pot. They seem to be more ideologic than scientific.
> The study "Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages." is from 2006, but it tries to analyse the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Portuguese districts. 
> Portugal is very much a R1b majority country.
> 
> P.S. - O Brasil vem jogar no Porto com o Panamá!


Hello Nuno.


Yes. It has been said in one of the many forums here at Eupedia that much has yet to be done and discussed about the genetics of the modern population of the Iberian Peninsula and Portugal.


You bring one more element to enrich the discussions.


As for the game, I think it will be a great spectacle, although the selection of Panama is not an adversary of tradition.


Anyway, Brazil has great players, most of them playing in European clubs, and I think it will be a good game for football lovers who live in Oporto city to watch.


Football is always a great multicultural and multiethnic celebration of democracy in sport.


PS: Um grande abraço para você desde o Brasil, extensivo a todos os irmãos portugueses.


Duarte.

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## Ygorcs

> The study "Micro-phylogeographic and demographic history of Portuguese male lineages." is from 2006, but it tries to analyse the proportions of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Portuguese districts. 
> Portugal is very much a R1b majority country.


Not disputing that information, which is a fact, but Portugal's being very much a R1b-majority country tells us not that much about its overall genetic ancestry. Basques and British people both R1b-majority people (and R1b-L51 more specifically), too, but they clearly have very distinct genetic ancestry and a mostly different genetic history in the last 6000 years. We shouldn't read _too much_ in Y-DNA haplogroups beyond the information they can really give us.

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## Carlos

I also wanted to point out about the absurdity of this Oxford study that:


If SSA is attributed to the whole of Andalusia, they should know that when the Almoravids arrived, 500,000 natives move to the north of Spain and remain in the north, perhaps after Castilla for 800 years, so if that dubious Oxford study would like Attributing the SSA of Andalusia to the pre-Islamic period also in the north would have to appear that value that the natives of the south would have brought.


If the SSA intended to put it in the Muslim era we would return to the same, the blacks in Al-Andalus would have been slaves and their access to the population of the three Christian, Muslim and Jewish cultures and if the results of North Africa in Andalusia or Spain they have turned out to be so minimal, contrary to what some people claimed, dreamed or wished for, because it is more unlikely that black slaves would have taken control of the genetic control of that time, being slaves.


So they will have a hard time resolving the ballot and the best they can do is acknowledge that their study is wrong and they have screwed up to the waist.


They thought that obtaining an SSA value of dubious credibility could fit more or less at the time they knew there was slavery through the Andalusian ports, supported by topical and romantic ideas of romantic and false European writings with which a topic had been created and that anything could fit in Andalusia, and it turns out that no, anything does not fit in Andalusia.


So there are some disturbing points. What interest there may be in this alleged manipulation of an implausible lace, and who may be behind the financing of such a convoluted study and if in said study it was pre-determined to find results on a compulsory basis and put them where they could best appear credible. presumably.

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## Carlos

I also want to emphasize that those who climbed afterwards went down in addition to those who remained and it was the engine of the "reconquest" I am a little tired that the reconquest is seen as a fact of the northern ones nothing else, and the natives of the south as a passive element, when from within their own territory they also had to exert a great resistance that added to the motor force of the north that in reality were those of the south they returned to recover the territory, otherwise perhaps at present Spain would continue being Muslim.

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## Angela

Look, this is turning into a thread of no value scientifically. The SSA exists. When it is there it sticks out, and it sticks out in this case. 

Now, if you want to argue about how and when, fine, but you can't argue with the facts. 

I also don't understand how anyone can ignore the fact that white male owners have sex with their female SSA slaves. Do I really have to show the numerous examples world wide? 

Let's think about just one. People who visited Thomas Jefferson's plantation were amazed at how many "white" slaves he had. More than a few were his own children. Most of them ran away and blended into the greater population.

Wishing this away won't change anything.

Also, let's drop the easy shot conspiracy theories. All the genetics labs in the world aren't in a conspiracy to "darken" Spain.

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## Carlos

^^The laboratories of the world do not intend to obscure free Spain probably, I imagine that the studies are commissioned and financed by someone. And if in this case a purported SSA that is attributed to a population or nationality and that does not fit anywhere makes it necessary to return to the origin of everything that is the study itself.


Although that SSA has appeared at the time of slavery through the Andalusian ports, it would be minimal in relation to the entire Andalusian population and it would have occurred since the beginning of the 20th century, so it would not be understood to extend it as a result for a whole population, nor the fact of having tried to fit in historical periods where it is impossible that it had occurred. It is obvious.

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## Angela

> ^^The laboratories of the world do not intend to obscure free Spain probably, I imagine that the studies are commissioned and financed by someone. And if in this case a purported SSA that is attributed to a population or nationality and that does not fit anywhere makes it necessary to return to the origin of everything that is the study itself.
> 
> 
> Although that SSA has appeared at the time of slavery through the Andalusian ports, it would be minimal in relation to the entire Andalusian population and it would have occurred since the beginning of the 20th century, so it would not be understood to extend it as a result for a whole population, nor the fact of having tried to fit in historical periods where it is impossible that it had occurred. It is obvious.


Yeah, right. It's always the Jews, right? What, they hold a grudge for being expelled what, 800 years ago?

You think anyone is persuaded by this nonsense? Give it up.

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## Carlos

^^I do not believe the Jews, but it could be Puigdemont allegedly. LOL


I'm settled the issue. From now on, it will be the Csic who will be in charge of finding out what has happened to this strange, convoluted, thick and complicated study, something that they continually emphasize, besides indicating that in U.K. They did the same, they are very concerned that we created everything that it cost them to do it.


It's over I do not want to talk about the subject anymore, the issue is in the hands of whoever needs to be.

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