# Population Genetics > Y-DNA Haplogroups >  Turkish Dna, Research of Haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T

## TurkmenCopur

At www.turktoresi.com we have published a research about the haplogroups found in Turks. The research included almost all genetic studies done till today based on Y-SNP haplogroup testing. The site has become a detailed database, with results of the haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T. The language is in Turkish, although you can understand very well the results that are printed. 

You can make use of the google translate tool for translation(translator).

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## sparkey

> At www.turktoresi.com we have published a research about the haplogroups found in Turks. The research included almost all genetic studies done till today based on Y-SNP haplogroup testing. The site has become a detailed database, with results of the haplogroups C, E, G, I, J, L, N, Q, R and T. The language is in Turkish, although you can understand very well the results that are printed. 
> 
> You can make use of the google translate tool for translation(translator).


Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?

I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.

I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.

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## Taranis

> Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?
> 
> I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.
> 
> I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.


That is weird, it actually makes no sense. Haplogroup I clearly originated in Europe, and it must have arrived there pretty early _from the Middle East_. I actually never *ever* heard of any case of Haplogroup I in Mongolia.

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## sparkey

> That is weird, it actually makes no sense. Haplogroup I clearly originated in Europe, and it must have arrived there pretty early _from the Middle East_. I actually never *ever* heard of any case of Haplogroup I in Mongolia.


Unless something is getting lost in translation, this page appears to assert that there were 4 instances of haplogroup I (predicted from STRs with varying confidence) found in a Mongolian necropolis in this study. Interesting if true, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the links.

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## TurkmenCopur

> Were there any interesting finds regarding haplogroups R or I? In particular, did you find anything interesting about the relative concentration of subclades in those?
> 
> I in Turkey is interesting, because it must have gone in from Europe some way. I'm not sure if it is the predominant cluster, but I know that I2*-B is present. I bet that there is some Balkan-origin I2a as well.
> 
> I could be misinterpreting this, but the map here appears to be presented as the migration pattern of haplogroup I, as it relates to Turks. If so, the arrows must be backwards. The center of diversity of that haplogroup is clearly in Europe.


You can read the results of haplogroup R and haplogroup I at these pages http://turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=86, http://turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=88.

Haplogroup R1a is the subclade of R with the highest frequencies. Haplogroup R is found in very high frequencies in Turk tribes and ancient Turk graves, for example it is found in Xiongnu Turk graves. Some of the very interesting results of R in Turks(and also Mongols and Tungusics) are: *95,0% in Bashkirs,* *92,9% in Altaians,* *82,5% in Khotons,* *80,0% in Tuvinians,* *78,4% in Shors,* *44,0% in Turkiye, and a lot more of these high frequencies*.

As for haplogroup I, we must know the fact that many of the Balkan nations are of Turk origin, and have roots in Central Asia/Mongolia. Haplogroup I is found *53,7% in Bosniacs,* *40,0% in Tatars,* *31,6% in Gagauz's, and also in the study* *Keyser et. al. 2003*(http://turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=4533), *4/27 haplotypes match with haplogroup I*, this is very important, as the Keyser et. al. 2003 studies is about ancient Xiongnu Turk graves in Mongolia. This is the reason for the map of I to begin from Mongolia, because if there is evidence of 2000 year old haplogroup I in Mongolia, then the origin should lie there.

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## TurkmenCopur

And also in lower frequencies, I is found for example in Siberian Mongols, http://turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=4514

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## sparkey

> As for haplogroup I, we must know the fact that many of the Balkan nations are of Turk origin, and have roots in Central Asia/Mongolia. Haplogroup I is found *53,7% in Bosniacs,* *40,0% in Tatars,* *31,6% in Gagauz's, and also in the study* *Keyser et. al. 2003*(http://turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=4533), *4/27 haplotypes match with haplogroup I*, this is very important, as the Keyser et. al. 2003 studies is about ancient Xiongnu Turk graves in Mongolia. This is the reason for the map of I to begin from Mongolia, because if there is evidence of 2000 year old haplogroup I in Mongolia, then the origin should lie there.


OK, I understand the logic of the map now. Perhaps if we think of the Turks alone, then it is possible that some haplogroup I amongst the Turks came from as far East as Mongolia in the past 2000 years. Keep in mind, though, that the general migration trend of haplogroup I in Asia must be West to East due to its obvious ancientness in Europe. So, any migrations from East to West must be recent in genetic terms (as in, it's unlikely to have happened more than 2000 years ago). Both of the candidate subclades for presence in modern Turkic populations (I2a2a and I2*-B) have quite young MRCAs and probably originated west of Anatolia, although where exactly I2a2a came from in particular has been the subject of a lot of debate on this forum. Certainly, though, it was west of Mongolia. Do you know the subclade that popped up in Mongolia? Or have STR values so that we can compare to modern I2a2a and I2*-B?

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## sparkey

Nevermind, I just found them, here. The only one that looks reliable enough to predict to a subclade of haplogroup I is sample 28, which gets predicted by Cullen's predictor to I2*-B. Very interesting. Nobody in the I2* project matches exactly, because the common modern YCAII value among I2*-B is 19/21, not 19/19, but several (including some from Turkey) match the rest exactly. 19/19 in YCAII is common among the closely-related I2*-A cluster, but so is 19/21, so either could be ancestral.

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## TurkmenCopur

> Nevermind, I just found them, here. The only one that looks reliable enough to predict to a subclade of haplogroup I is sample 28, which gets predicted by Cullen's predictor to I2*-B. Very interesting. Nobody in the I2* project matches exactly, because the common modern YCAII value among I2*-B is 19/21, not 19/19, but several (including some from Turkey) match the rest exactly. 19/19 in YCAII is common among the closely-related I2*-A cluster, but so is 19/21, so either could be ancestral.


2 haplotypes are I2a and 2 haplotypes are I2b(according to the With athey predictor).

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## sparkey

> 2 haplotypes are I2a and 2 haplotypes are I2b(according to the With athey predictor).


You really should use Cullen's predictor instead of Athey's to determine haplogroup I subclades in Asia, because Athey's excludes the most common subclade in Asia (I2*-B). We are really unlikely to see I2b in Asia. For the four samples, Cullen's predictor gives:

28: I2*-B
32A: probably non-I
36: I2a of some flavor
65: I2a2 of some flavor

With the acknowledgment that these have some uncertainty, it looks like you've got one I2*-B, two I2a2a's, and one unknown. See Nordtvedt's tree to see where these fall. I2*-B and I2a2a are not very closely related and probably came from different sources, both west of Mongolia.

Also, I2*-B is unlikely to have continued to the Balkans, as the map suggests. It has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know. It is a very thinly spread haplogroup that I thought stretched from Scotland to Iran, but it now appears that it stretches (or stretched) from Scotland to Mongolia. I'm not as certain about I2a2a but I bet that most of it in the Balkans came from the Slavs rather than the Turks. Maybe some of our resident I2a experts will comment. I'm I2*-A myself so I'm more familiar with the I2* clusters.

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## Sprinkles

Mongols invaded eastern europe, were stopped in Croatia and most definitely brought back I2a2 with them. Enough fantasy thinking.

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## TurkmenCopur

> You really should use Cullen's predictor instead of Athey's to determine haplogroup I subclades in Asia, because Athey's excludes the most common subclade in Asia (I2*-B). We are really unlikely to see I2b in Asia. For the four samples, Cullen's predictor gives:
> 
> 28: I2*-B
> 32A: probably non-I
> 36: I2a of some flavor
> 65: I2a2 of some flavor
> 
> With the acknowledgment that these have some uncertainty, it looks like you've got one I2*-B, two I2a2a's, and one unknown. See Nordtvedt's tree to see where these fall. I2*-B and I2a2a are not very closely related and probably came from different sources, both west of Mongolia.
> 
> Also, I2*-B is unlikely to have continued to the Balkans, as the map suggests. It has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know. It is a very thinly spread haplogroup that I thought stretched from Scotland to Iran, but it now appears that it stretches (or stretched) from Scotland to Mongolia. I'm not as certain about I2a2a but I bet that most of it in the Balkans came from the Slavs rather than the Turks. Maybe some of our resident I2a experts will comment. I'm I2*-A myself so I'm more familiar with the I2* clusters.


My purpose wasnt to define the subgroups, but instead defining the main haplogroups. With athey predictor seems to be the most trustable program for this purpose. Like your comment about Grave 32A, athey predictor gave 42.0% probability of I. But still it is the highest frequency chance. The other 3 have probability frequencies of 91.0%, 71.6% and 88.3%. And the maps are also not based on subgroups, instead using only main haplogroup I.

As for Bosniacs, historians have proven that Bosniacs are of Turk origin, probably of Kuman Kipchak tribe. And it is well known, that Hun Turks from Western Hun Empire, have settled and stayed in Central Europe/Balkans area.

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## Taranis

To be honest, the idea that Bosnia Haplogroup I is of solely Turkic origin is rather absurd to me.

Haplogroup I (specifically, I2b2) is attested from the Urnfield Culture, specifically from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany which is dated to circa 1000 BC.

While I wouldn't rule that there may have been a migration of Haplogroup I towards the east, from which the Xiongnu may have stemmed, the idea that Haplogroup I originated in Mongolia is absurd. It is far more probable that Haplogroup I and it's subclades are of European origin, and in fact the only European Haplogroup from Paleolithic times. Furthermore, one has to consider that the outgroup to Haplogroup I is Haplogroup J (with it's two main sublcades, J1 and J2), which is found in the Midle East.

This fits with the historic scenario that the first modern humans who settled in Europe came from the Middle East. To say that I2 on the Balkans is of Turk origin is just absurd. What do you make of Basque or Sardinian I2? Are those of Turk descend, too?!  :Useless: 

No offense, but if you ask me that website (www.turktoresi.com) is mixing up genetics with weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science.

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## iapetoc

Well if you read my posts about Ancient Thracians and Makedonians you will find where that I came from,

Kurds are not Turks, but south slavic I,

it is the migration of Vrygians and Bythini to minor Asia

the word Kurd, and the simmilar
Curd 
Surd
Serdi
Sherdana
it is simmilar to soldi->soldi-soldati-soldiεr-φυλακας
means soldiers, quardians, moving battalion tribes with women and animals,
in fact in Area of Kurds I _ydna is raised, just east of Vrygia,

the word Surd as the word Kulla Kale Keli , Celi Cheli Calli is found in Balkans before Greek expanssion

in The area of Upper (Greek west) Makedonia we found the word Curd and Greeks translate it as Phylakai -Φυλακαι means border observers and Guardians,

Now according to Byzantines there are 2 turkish invasions, even the name Tiurk is consider Byzantine 
the 1rst invasion stoped at Taursus area the Seljuk,
they and only they came from Moggolia area,
Ottomans came from west Persia and Ajerbaizan

Turk in Byzantine means Taursus people, the one who speak Taursus new language,
Ottomans were not Turks But middle east Anatolians or east Caucasians,
the many words with Ancient Greek language, like yok -ουκ, gusell -γοεσα, pambuk-βομβυξ,
proves that only Seljuk came from Moggolia, and Ottomans were mainly from around Caspian Sea, ancient Anatolians, 
In fact Byzantines knew that if someones change religion, then must change language,
that is why many autosomal of Turks are simmilar to Greeks,

I don't know if a reasearch has been done, but I am in mood to find Υ-Δνα of early ottomans, and not later Converted, I am suspicius in G -Ydna

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## TurkmenCopur

> To be honest, the idea that Bosnia Haplogroup I is of solely Turkic origin is rather absurd to me.
> 
> Haplogroup I (specifically, I2b2) is attested from the Urnfield Culture, specifically from the Lichtenstein Cave in northern Germany which is dated to circa 1000 BC.
> 
> While I wouldn't rule that there may have been a migration of Haplogroup I towards the east, from which the Xiongnu may have stemmed, the idea that Haplogroup I originated in Mongolia is absurd. It is far more probable that Haplogroup I and it's subclades are of European origin, and in fact the only European Haplogroup from Paleolithic times. Furthermore, one has to consider that the outgroup to Haplogroup I is Haplogroup J (with it's two main sublcades, J1 and J2), which is found in the Midle East.
> 
> This fits with the historic scenario that the first modern humans who settled in Europe came from the Middle East. To say that I2 on the Balkans is of Turk origin is just absurd. What do you make of Basque or Sardinian I2? Are those of Turk descend, too?! 
> 
> No offense, but if you ask me that website (www.turktoresi.com) is mixing up genetics with weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science.


Its interesting you use the word "absurd" so much. If you have read the goals of our site, then you will see that all the thesis in the site are based on academic arguments, including Genetic, Anthropologic and Historical studies.

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## Taranis

I used it three times. Sure. Where is your problem? My arguments about Haplogroup I do hold, anyways. The spread and diversity Haplogroup I in Europe is well-known. You can also look up the evidence from the Lichtenstein cave. Even Maciamo has maps of the distribution Haplogroup I in Europe on here:

Haplogroup I1:



Haplogroup I2a:



In a nutshell, you have to discard a lot of evidence to make the claim that Haplogroup I originated with the Xiongnu...

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## TurkmenCopur

> Well if you read my posts about Ancient Thracians and Makedonians you will find where that I came from,
> 
> Kurds are not Turks, but south slavic I,
> 
> it is the migration of Vrygians and Bythini to minor Asia
> 
> the word Kurd, and the simmilar
> Curd 
> Surd
> ...


I was laughing when i read this post of yours. You say Ottomans originated and come from Persia and Azerbaijan, and basing upon this argument you say that the Ottomans are of Middle East Caucasian origin. Very funny, do you know where the Ottomans came from before the settlements in Iran, Azerbaijan and Syria areas? Let me answer, first of all Ottomans are not another nation, or do not represent the name of a nation, rather Osman is a name of a Turk family leader in the 13th-14.th century. The Ottomans are of the Karakeçili-Kayı Tribe of Oghuz Turks. The Oghuz Turks all have settled in Anatolia, Iran and Azerbaijan areas during the 11th-13th century(with the Selcuk Empire), and came from Central Asia-Turkmenistan area. After the battle of Malazgirt, where the Selcuks(another Oghuz family Tribe who rules a Turk Empire) have beaten the Byzantins, all Byzantins have left Anatolia. And also an important part of the Byzantin armies were of Kuman Kıpchak Turk origin.

And it is also a proven fact by many historians that Turks have been in Anatolia thousands of years before the Oghuz Turks.

So Selcuks did not come directly from Mongolia, but they have migrated from Turkmenistan to all countries between Turkmenistan and Turkiye. But, since the Selcuks are of the Oghuz Tribe, and since the Turk nation has three main tribes, namely Oghuz, Karluk and Kipchak, this means that Selcuks and Ottomans are both descendants of Asian Huns(Xiongnu Turks). So they actually do come from Mongolia, but not in 11th century but during the first centuries.

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## TurkmenCopur

> I used it three times. Sure. Where is your problem? My arguments about Haplogroup I do hold, anyways. The spread and diversity Haplogroup I in Europe is well-known. You can also look up the evidence from the Lichtenstein cave. Even Maciamo has maps of the distribution Haplogroup I in Europe on here:
> 
> Haplogroup I1:
> 
> 
> 
> Haplogroup I2a:
> 
> 
> ...


If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence. The highest frequencies in your maps are 30-40-50%, look at this table:

*1. Bosniac* *Turks**: 53,7%(1. Place), 48,2%(1.* *Place**), 47,7%(1.* *Place**), 42,0%*
*Çalışmalar: Peričić et. al. 2005, Marjanovic et. al. 2005, Battaglia et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004*
*Sayfa:* Boşnak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

*2. Tatar* *Turks**: 40,0%(1.* *Place**), 33,3%(2.* *Place**), 18,0%(2.* *Place**)*
*Çalışmalar: Järve et. al. 2009, Tambets et. al. 2004, Wells et. al. 2001*
*Sayfa:* Tatar Türklerinde İ

*3. Gagauz Türklerinde: 31,6%, 31,3%(1. Sırada), 24,4%(2. Sırada)* 
*Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Varzari et. al. 2009*
*Sayfa:* Gagauz Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

*4. Magyar Hun* *Turks**: 27,4%, 23,0%(2.* *Place**), 21,7%(2.* *Place**)*
*Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004, Csányi et. al. 2009, Csányi et. al. 2009*
*Sayfa:* Macar Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

*5. Türkiye Turks: 26,0%(2.* *Place**)*
*Çalışmalar: Nasidze et. al. 2004*
*Sayfa:* Türkiye Türklerinde İ

*6. Cossack* *Turks**: 24,2%(2.* *Place**), 22,7%*
*Çalışmalar: Balanovsky et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004*
*Sayfa:* Kozak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

*7. Xiong Nu Turk Graves: 14,8%*
*Çalışmalar: Keyser et. al. 2003*
*Sayfa:* Asya Hun Türkleri(Xiong Nu) Mezarlıklarında Haplogrup İ

*8. Cuvash* *Turks**: 11,3%*
*Çalışmalar: Rootsi et. al. 2004*
*Sayfa:* Çuvaş Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

*9. Uzbek Turks: 7,0%*
*Çalışmalar: Wells et. al. 2001*
*Sayfa:* Özbek Türklerinde Haplogrup İ

All populations in this table are of Turk Origin, and the frequencies are changing from 7,0%-53,7%. And this map is based on this table.



Please make effort and take time to research things, then try to discuss with me. I dont want to loose any more time with a scum like yourselves.

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## Taranis

> If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence. The highest frequencies in your maps are 30-40-50%, look at this table:
> 
> 1. Bosniac Turks: 53,7%(1. Place), 48,2%(1. Place), 47,7%(1. Place), 42,0%
> Çalışmalar: Peričić et. al. 2005, Marjanovic et. al. 2005, Battaglia et. al. 2008, Rootsi et. al. 2004
> Sayfa: Boşnak Türklerinde Haplogrup İ
> 
> 2. Tatar Turks: 40,0%(1. Place), 33,3%(2. Place), 18,0%(2. Place)
> Çalışmalar: Järve et. al. 2009, Tambets et. al. 2004, Wells et. al. 2001
> Sayfa: Tatar Türklerinde İ
> ...


One crucial issue you should consider is that high frequencies do not automatically mean a Haplogroup originated at a specific place. For the same reason, it was originally (before circa 2008) thought that Haplogroup R1b had originated on the Iberian penninsula. However, it was later found out that the centers of R1b diversity lay outside of the Atlantic facade, and that in fact Western European R1b only belongs to the R1b-M269 subclade, whereas Central Asian (R1b-M73) and African (R1b-V88) subclades branched of significantly earlier. Therefore, my question would be what the diversity and variety of Haplogroup I in these Turkic populations, if apparently present, is. Also, the issue exists that you haven't addressed the existence of Haplogroup I outside of Turkic populations, especially if the I1/I2 split probably occured as early as the Last Glacial Maximum, a time which predates the ethnogenesis of the Turkic peoples manifold.




> Please make effort and take time to research things, then try to discuss with me. I dont want to loose any more time with a *scum* like yourselves.


There's no need to be offensive like that.  :Petrified:

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## barbarian

> I dont want to loose any more time with a *scum* like yourselves.


you have very nice site. and interesting to read. 

but you must excuse for this word.

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## iapetoc

> I was laughing when i read this post of yours. You say Ottomans originated and come from Persia and Azerbaijan, and basing upon this argument you say that the Ottomans are of Middle East Caucasian origin. Very funny, do you know where the Ottomans came from before the settlements in Iran, Azerbaijan and Syria areas? Let me answer, first of all Ottomans are not another nation, or do not represent the name of a nation, rather Osman is a name of a Turk family leader in the 13th-14.th century. The Ottomans are of the Karakeçili-Kayı Tribe of Oghuz Turks. The Oghuz Turks all have settled in Anatolia, Iran and Azerbaijan areas during the 11th-13th century(with the Selcuk Empire), and came from Central Asia-Turkmenistan area. After the battle of Malazgirt, where the Selcuks(another Oghuz family Tribe who rules a Turk Empire) have beaten the Byzantins, all Byzantins have left Anatolia. And also an important part of the Byzantin armies were of Kuman Kıpchak Turk origin.
> 
> And it is also a proven fact by many historians that Turks have been in Anatolia thousands of years before the Oghuz Turks.
> 
> So Selcuks did not come directly from Mongolia, but they have migrated from Turkmenistan to all countries between Turkmenistan and Turkiye. But, since the Selcuks are of the Oghuz Tribe, and since the Turk nation has three main tribes, namely Oghuz, Karluk and Kipchak, this means that Selcuks and Ottomans are both descendants of Asian Huns(Xiongnu Turks). So they actually do come from Mongolia, but not in 11th century but during the first centuries.



it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,

in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians

in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
the last not converted Byzantines left in 1923 and not in 13 century,
so don't make me laugh,

the only Turkish if it is Y-Dna in Turkey is R1a 
and by what I heard Ottomans were more Alans G-Ydna than R1a, there is a story that seljuk moved from east, and Ottomans from North,

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## TurkmenCopur

> it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
> J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
> The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
> the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,
> 
> in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
> since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians
> 
> in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
> ...





> it is funny, but only in areas where seljuk settled we found white desert (Zinyang) Y-Dna, cause I in Turkey it is connected with Curds and Dinaric, Serbians Croats Romanians, And proves that settlement 1000 years BC,
> J is ancient Here, in fact many J-Ydna are considered Greek,
> The linguistic proves that Turks mainly ottomans were in Touch with Greeks before 11 Century AD, so infact almost 35% of urkey pop is cinsidered Turkish and that is under discuss, cause many believe that only 10-15% is Turkish, and mostly are converted,
> the Numerous of 300 000 Seljuk and 80 000 Ottomans that were estimated at 10-11 century AD are proving that, by many Turks I have discuss Ottomans could be Alans, and not Turks,
> 
> in fact in a small search of my own, I found many common root words exept the above is also Tirmik where in Cappadokia and Pontus is Turmach, is simmilar to Greek-Byzantine Terra-machion->ter-mach->tirmich
> since from mother i am Rum, i know that is enough Greek words in Turkish and they are not moggolian, so probably Ottomans had part of PIE language, or in Fact majority of Turks are not from white desert but converted minor Asians
> 
> in fact Byzantines left only from Cillikia, until today live in Turkey,
> ...


You do not base your writings on anything, you show no data at all who confirm anything, therefore i dont take your messages seriously, and will not waste time either with you after this post.

Lets begin with haplogroup J, let me proof you the Turk origin of haplogroup J.

Haplogroup J is found with 72,0%(1. Place Ranking) in Avar Turks in the study Yunusbaev et. al. 2006. In Azerbaijan Turks(in studies Zerjal et. al. 2002, Wells et. al. 2001, Giacomo et. al. 2004, Murci et. al. 2001, Nasidze et. al. 2004) Haplogroup J frequencies are: 57,9%(1. Place Ranking), 48,0%(1. Place Ranking), 39,1%, 34,0%(1. Place Ranking), 31,0%(1. Place Ranking). 
In Kumik Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 46,0%(1. Place Ranking). 
In Uzbek Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 34,7%(1. Place Ranking). 
In Uygur Turks Haplogroup J frequencies are: 34,0%(1. Place Ranking). 
In Xiongu Hun Turk Graves there is also found one Haplogroup J. And a lot more data available at http://www.turktoresi.com.

Haplogroup G ıs found with 86,7%(1. Place Ranking) in Kazak Turks(Bíró et. al. 2009). Even this is enough data. And i have already discussed Haplogroup I.

----------


## TurkmenCopur

> you have very nice site. and interesting to read. 
> 
> but you must excuse for this word.


Thanks, you are welcome at our site. I have respect for everyone, and "scum" isnt more heavy than the words "absurd" and "weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science".

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## Taranis

> Thanks, you are welcome at our site. I have respect for everyone, and "scum" isnt more heavy than the words "absurd" and "weird Turk nationalist ideas that have no place in science".


Well, I'm afraid to say this, but you're proving what I'm trying to say by yourself: *you are arguing Haplogroups G and J also originate with the Turkic people*, whereas their distributions show no clear correlation (at least with the Haplogroups as a whole):





In fact, Haplogroup G is far more likely to have originated with Neolithic farmers, which spread into Europe. It has been found in fact with the Linear Pottery Culture.

Check out this article below:

Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

In particular, check out this.

I think however that _some_ European Haplogroup G can be attributed to the Avars (who presumably did actually speak a Turkic languages).

----------


## Dagne

I've been always wondering why it's only Y-Dna are compared when talking about ethnicities. Is it only because of lacking information about mtDNA subclades which could link them to ethnicity/traits? Or mtDNA are not seemed as important for genetic make up whatsoever?

----------


## Taranis

> I've been always wondering why it's only Y-Dna are compared when talking about ethnicities. Is it only because of lacking information about mtDNA subclades which could link them to ethnicity/traits? Or mtDNA are not seemed as important for genetic make up whatsoever?


Actually, mitochondrial DNA is used as well, but it has a number of disadvantages to it: first off, the DNA of mitochondria is much smaller than that of chromosomes, which also means that mutation rates of mitochondria are somewhat unsuitable for offering a good resolution at the time scales of human history. I do have the impression however that mitochondrial DNA has the advantage that it is somewhat easier preserved. Some of the mitochondrial Haplogroups can however be correlated with Y-chromosomal Haplogroups.

----------


## how yes no 2

> If you had read the site carefully you would have seen the evidence.


no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...

bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...

haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people... 

Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...

ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..

I do not see how Cossacks are Turks... in fact, it is a name for culture not for ethnic origin... Cossacks are most pro-Serb oriented people in Russia...in all previous wars in Balkans there were Cossack volounters fighting on Serb side...in fact, there are theories that name Srb had in Russia meaning soldier and that from that soldier caste Cossacks originated....

Magyars are not Huns...Huns have disappeared, but were Mongolian people thus probably haplogroup C, maybe some Q (as we can find some haplogroup Q in Balkan people)...besides levels of haplogroup I in Hungary fits levels in its neighbourhood...in fact, there are many people in Hungary who origin from south Slavs...note also that east and west Hungary that cluster with Serbs/Croats/Romanians/central Ukraine (see http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html) ....that is logical as Slavs lived there before Magyars arrived... 

Uzbeks have 7% of haplogroup I... so it is like claiming that Serbs and Irish are same people as both have R1b... 

Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I ...40% is just in single place and if you want to find origin of haplogroup I you should study people from that place..as haplogroup I obviously doesnot correlate with Tatars as whole but is only locally present...

btw. nice map...correlates well with Serians mentioned by Seneca...


1st spot you make is south Siberia, 2nd is Serica, 3rd is Caspian highlands (near where Serboi/Serians/Sarbans were recorded), 4th spot in Cappadocia matches people recorded in history Cimmerians/ Syrians in Strabo's writings...5th spot are Serbs...
all those people origin from ancient Serians...

white Syrians are people of Cappadocia in times of Strabo



> As for the Paphlagonians, they are bounded on the east by the Halys River, which, according to Herodotus, “flows from the south between the Syrians and the Paphlagonians and empties into the Euxine Sea, as it is called;”19by "Syrians," however, he means the* "Cappadocians," and in fact they are still today called "White Syrians," while those outside the Taurus are called "Syrians."* As compared with those this side the Taurus, those outside have a tanned complexion, while those this side do not, and for this reason received the appellation "white." And Pindar says that the *Amazons“swayed a 'Syrian' army that reached afar with their spears*,
> ” thus clearly indicating that their abode was in Themiscyra. Themiscyra is in the territory of the Amiseni; and this territory belongs to the White Syrians, who live in the country next after the Halys River.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...thracian,eneti

while Cappadocians were called white Syrians
according to Byzantine emperor Serbs origin from white Serbs 

now, if you want more details about origin of haplogroup I in Turkey...


it is in my opinion about people who origin from Serians mentioned by Seneca...

Seneca postulates that Serians live in Caucasus, on Red sea, in Serica area (northwest China of today) and in Europe around Danube....




> [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who *vex the scattered Scythians* and they who *dwell upon the Red Sea*’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the *Caspian heights* to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who *dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves*27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the *Serians28 for fleeces famous* – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
> 
> 27. i.e. the frozen surface.
> 28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.


Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians produced fleece in Serica in northwest China of today....
Serians from Europe live somewhere around Danube as they dare to cross frozen Danube on bare foot...
Serians from Caspian mountains who live among Sarmatians are clearly matching Serbi/Serboi recorded by Ptolomy in Sarmatia Asiatica... on same place later we find Sabirs... note that this is next to Amazones and that Strabo speaks of Cappadocians or west Syrians fighting all the way to Amazones...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

we also know that Cappadocians likely origin from Cimmerians



> The term Gimirri was used about a century later in the Behistun inscription (ca. 515 BC) as a Babylonian equivalent of Persian Saka (Scythians). Otherwise Cimmerians disappeared from western Asian historical accounts, and their fate was unknown. It has been *speculated that they settled in Cappadocia*, known in Armenian as Գամիրք, *Gamir-k*ʿ (the same name as the original Cimmerian homeland in Mannae).[citation needed


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

regarding Serians from Europe...
manuscript of Bavarian geographer records that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....

now, variants of Kurdish language are: 
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani) 

obviously Sorani is same tribal name as Serians....

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani, which is clearly corruption of tribal name Germani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

point is this is place of early settlement of haplogroup I (after initial spread from area of Kerman/Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran), from there it spread to Europe in several waves...very early wave as haplogroup I1 Germanic people, next one as I2b Germanic people, next one as I2a proto-Serbs....

to Hebrews this haplogroup I people were known as nations of Gomer and Ripath
... note that person named Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people, and that Riphat is its son.... according to map we can guess that Ripath is in fact forefather of Paphlagonia Veneti, and in 6th century Jordanes claims that Slavic people are of Venetic race... elsewhere on forum I have shown that early Slavs were clearly dominantly I2a people... note that Gomer is Japhet's son and that Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs to origin from Japhet....

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

knowing that Veneti completely moved out from Paphlagonia (as written in Strabo's book), we can expect island of genetic imprint of Gomer in Cappadocia and layers of people originating from Gormer and his son Riphat above Black sea...
that is exactly what we see in haplogroup I2a spread




now Veneti from whom according to historian Jordanes early Slavs origin (http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html), lived in Paphlagonia...



> ...at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called *Eneti*, bordering on the Cappadocians, *made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea*.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the *Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia*. [9]


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...thracian,eneti
it is widely accepted Gomer are same people as Cimmerians....




> The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the *Cimmerian city of Gomara* in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the *Cimmerians* also came to be known as *Gimirri* in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian *word for hero, ?????, gmiri*, is derived from the word Gimirri.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimerians


now white Syrians = ancient Cappadocians = Cimmerians = Gimirri = Gomer 
gmiri= hero
Kerman/Germania/Zermanya = battle, hero

root word of Serian also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm


Strabo records story of earlier authors that Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out from Paphlagonia after joint expedition with Cimmerians... now that joint expedition is logical because Eneti/Veneti are sons of Riphat and Riphat is son of Gomer, and Gomer people are Cimmerians....

but, Cimmerians did return to area and settle in Cappadocia, which is where haplogroup I and I2a hotspots are... Greek authors call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...which is same tribal name as Serians...

let's compare archeological findings of Cimmerians and of early Slavs

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

early Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

you can probably add to early Slavs areas also Bohemia/Bavaria as Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs came to Balkan from area Boika where they always lived and that neighbours Frankia.. and also Tribalia or upper Moesia, as Byzantine sources in later times use name Tribalians for Serbs, and Russian primary chronicle puts proto-Slavic people prior to Roman empire spread roughly in Moesia (north and central Serbia and north Bulgaria)...

obviously, Thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs cover exactly the same area... this area is mostly marked with I2a haplogroup... Cimmerians are in Cappadocia later known as white Syrians, and Slavs are claimed to origin from big state of Zeruiani...
according to byzantine emperor Serbs settled Balkan from land which they call Boika where they also originally lived...Boika is likely land of Boii or Bohemia/Bavaria area where we find toponyms such as Srby and Serviodurum ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing ) ...Both Bavaria and Bohemia are named after Boii who has lived there originally... Boii related tribe are Scordisci...with Thrachanized part of tribe bearing name Serdi...both Serdi and Scordisci lived in Serbia.... interesting coincidences, right?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false

Cimbri/Cimbrians thought to origin from Cimmerians (or Cappadocian in terms of Turkey) have a king whose name is Boiorix or king of Boii....north of Scordisci lived Boii, north most Serbia is Voivodina ...clearly Serbia/Voivodina maps to Scordisci(Serdi)/Boii by root word and geographical orientation... soldier in Slavic languages is "vojnik"/"bojovnik" again root word is Boii... same as root of words Kerman/Germania, Serians and Cimmerians/Gomer...

now, regarding cultural links between Serbs and Kurds
there is circular dance with holding hands, and relation to wolf...




> Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)

circle dance with holding hands exist elsewhere, e.g. in I2a1 areas of Iberia it is called Sardana.... 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana

in nearby Sardinia live Sardinians who are I2a1 people....

we can conclude that circle dance with holding hands is probably predating split of I2a on I2a1 and I2a2... while it is absent in I2b and I1 populations who have split much earlier from haplogroup I core...

tribal names Sardana/Sardinia/Sherdana and Serb origin from same same tribal name

lake in Egypt was named after sea peoples known as Sherdana...this lake is called Serbonian bog or Sirbonis...

back to Serb/Slav/Kurd/Cimmerian/Hettite links...
Serbs are related to wolves...national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

Lycia people were related to wolves... at least two leaders of Lycians were called Sarpedon where don might have been title...

word Kurt in Turkish means wolf...
Lycia is same name as for area Lika in Croatia inhabited by both Serbs and Croats... tribal name as Lech (mythical ancestor of Poles) might origin from same word...

btw. key Slavic gods are *Perun* and Veles



> Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the *Supreme thunder-god Perun*, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology.


Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in *Hati Taru*, and in *Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun*...




> Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian *Taru*. His Hittite and Luwian name was *Tarhun* (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European *Perkūnas*[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub




> In Norse polytheism, *Thor* (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

let's look at later Gods...



> Sabazios (Ancient Greek: Σαβάζιος) is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the -zios element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of Latin deus ('god') and Greek Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
> ...
> It seems likely that the migrating Phrygians brought Sabazios with them when they settled in Anatolia in the early first millennium BCE, and that the god's origins are to be looked for in Macedonia and Thrace. The recently discovered ancient sanctuary of Perperikon in eastern Thrace is believed to be that of Sabazios. The Macedonians were also noted horsemen, horse-breeders and horse-worshippers up to the time of Philip II, whose name signifies "lover of horses".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

hand gesture used in rituals related of Sabazios


hand gesture used by Serbs (tenis player Novak Djokovic on picture bellow)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

proofs for Slav/Serb/Serian/Anatolian/Cimmerian/Veneti connection are everywhere....
common denominator is haplogroup I2

ethnic Turks came to Anatolia much later... and in small numbers.. modern Turks are genetically not so much originating from original Turks ... they are genetically cousins to Slavs, Greeks, and other Europeans...this is because Europe was likely settled from Anatolia... and Anatolia still has very old variants of key Europe haplogroups... modern Turks are also related to middle east people due to very long history of living in same country...it is hard to tell what was haplogroup of original Turks... 

btw. Robert Salinas Price believes that Iliad and the Odyssey were originally written in Slavic-alike language and only later translated to Greek
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

----------


## TurkmenCopur

> no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...
> 
> bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...
> 
> haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people... 
> 
> Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...
> 
> ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..
> ...


Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.

Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.

I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: *40,0%(1.* *Place in Ranking**), 33,3%(2.* *Place in Ranking**), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking)*.

Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks, Gagauzes are a mix of Kipchak and Oguz(Pechenek Tribe) Turks, Cossacks are Russificied Turks, Chuvashes are descendants of Khazars and Bulgars, Uzbeks are also pure Turks(probably Kipchak Tribe), Magyars are descendants of European Huns. Coming to Kurds, it is a proven fact(academicly proven) that at least 33% of Kurds who live in the areas of old Ottoman Empire have Oghuz Turkmen(Prof. Dr. Yusuf Halaçoğlu et. al.) descent. And also, it is also proven that most words of the Kurdish language of today are the same as names of Huns and other Proto Turk tribes(Prof. Dr. Kazım Mirşan et. al.). 

It is even being said that Serbs have Turk origin. The other subjects you wrote about i have already answered in my previous posts, there is no need to repeat things. You can do a search at our site to find more detailed information about these subjects. Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.
> 
> Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.


Lol, you can lie about Bosnians being pure Turks someone who did not live in ex-Yugoslavia...

In Bosnia live Serbs, Croats, and muslim population of Slavic origin, language and culture that lost its national identity after converting to islam.... muslims of Bosnia have nothing to do with Turks..... reason they exist now as nation is that during Ottoman empire being muslim in Balkan meant not paying taxes, while being Christian meant paying heavily taxes....also it is about population in areas that were not devoted to orthodox Christianity as they were prior to Ottoman conquest belonging to heretic church of Bosnia....so in central part of Bosnia people did massively switch to islam... 

btw. your thread is pointless... In Turkey it is about I2* mostly...while in Balkan and east Europe it is about I2a2...distance is in order of ten thousand years... 

Bosnia catholics - now called Croats ( big part of them origin from Paganians or Narentanes and Byzantine sources call this people pagan/unbaptized Serbs).never mixed with Turks and are like 70% I2a2... In Turkey I2a people are mostly Kurds and people who origin from them...so are you trying to say Kurds are original Turks and they settled in Herzegovina?





> I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: *40,0%(1.* *Place in Ranking**), 33,3%(2.* *Place in Ranking**), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking)*.


because 4% is data for Tatars as whole as you can see in table in wikipedia with source indicated in table... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups





> Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks


Bosnians can be of Turkic origin only if Serbs and Croats are....

there are people who find links between Croats and Oghur Turks (google Osman Karatay), so I suggest you should follow that link instead of inventing....

I do think Serbs and Croats descend respectively from ancient Serians and Hurians... not convinced those were Turkic people...but some branch of those people did later become Turkic...e.g. Oghurs..

I think that Turkic Oghurs are Og - Hurians or west Hurians... 

also Sabirs on shores of Caspian sea who match locations of earlier Ptolemy Serboi/Serbi and of Seneca's Serians are Turkic...but that is all only after invasion of Turkic people...we do not know what Sabirs were originally... 

genetics is much older than languages / cultures.... e.g. latin language was 2500 years ago spoken only in little village called Rome...now latin derived languages are spoken in Italy, France, Romania, Portugal, Spain, latin America....
language and culture do not imply anything when it comes to genetics... as they are on completely different time scales... I prefer using tribal names as possible marker of shared genetic origin...

anyway, if you are right and proto-Turks were haplogroup I people, that would mean that Serbs and Croats are genetically real Turks, while Turks of Turkey are just people who accepted Turkic culture... dunno how you can explain fact that haplogroup I in Turkey is mostly in Iranian Kurds... were Kurds proto-Turks?

in my opinion haplogroup I has split from IJ somewhere in Persia and spread gradually towards Europe in several waves during a very long period...I suspect that haplogroup IJ did speak PIE language originally...and has transferred it to most of R1a and R1b people...




> Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.


decide in time what you want to be when you grow up... genetic scientist, historian or shrink....
though, judging by intellectual level of your posts, there is still a lot of time before you need to make that decision...

----------


## iapetoc

> Another funny guy, i thaught this forum was a serious forum.
> 
> Bosnian, Chuvash, Gagauz, Cossacks, Magyars, Uzbeks are all pure Turks, and historical facts prove this.
> 
> I dont understand how you make up this sentence of yours, "Tatars have 4% of haplogroup I", because ive clearly written the frequencies of I in Tatars: *40,0%(1.* *Place in Ranking**), 33,3%(2.* *Place in Ranking**), 18,0%(2. Place in Ranking)*.
> 
> Bosnians are of Kuman Kipchak Turks, Gagauzes are a mix of Kipchak and Oguz(Pechenek Tribe) Turks, Cossacks are Russificied Turks, Chuvashes are descendants of Khazars and Bulgars, Uzbeks are also pure Turks(probably Kipchak Tribe), Magyars are descendants of European Huns. Coming to Kurds, it is a proven fact(academicly proven) that at least 33% of Kurds who live in the areas of old Ottoman Empire have Oghuz Turkmen(Prof. Dr. Yusuf Halaçoğlu et. al.) descent. And also, it is also proven that most words of the Kurdish language of today are the same as names of Huns and other Proto Turk tribes(Prof. Dr. Kazım Mirşan et. al.). 
> 
> It is even being said that Serbs have Turk origin. The other subjects you wrote about i have already answered in my previous posts, there is no need to repeat things. You can do a search at our site to find more detailed information about these subjects. Clearly you have the same mentality as the other 2 guys in this topic. I will not not loose time by writing to you also.



ROFL

seems like Turkish propaganda tellers wake up, and realize that Turks are minority even in Turkey,

lets See 
*E-Ydna* is surely not Turkish but *Kushetic* origin 
*I-YDNA* *is Central Balkan* origin and is characteristic of Kurds who relatives of Serbians Croats Daci (Bosnians are new to be a nation, although after convert developed culture)
J-YDNA 
*J1* is semetic mostly middle eastern and Arabian
*J2a* well it is Anatolian and Greek (Pelasgian-Aegean)
*J2a8* (Crete-minor asia) & *J2a7* (Trapezus) are considered as *Greek*
many other *J2a* are considered *Anatolian and Levant* ancient
*J2b* is also considered *Greek and Levant* 

*R1b* is connected with Ancient *Hettit, Romans, Armenians*

*G-Ydna* is connected with *Eskenazi Jews- Alans - Georgians and ancient Summerians*
G could be Turkish since Ottomans are considered Alans and not Zinyiangs
But not all of G since it is connected with many other nations,

*R1a* is *the only left to belong to Turkish invaders* except G1
But what parts (DYS) of R1a?
cause *Slavic R1a is not simmilar to Turkish R1a*,
find if you are smart what R1a could be Turkish 
and how much of it is ancient (like Thracian) and how much is new from Zinyiang desert

then you will realise that you are a fake,
*Nobody will take you seriusly*,

all marks proves that Ogurs are minority in Turkey,
and majority of Turkey are converted,
*
FACT*

you may laugh as you like, but you are not convincing anyone.
Especially people who can think

----------


## marica mandic

I am glad that Turkish etnic group have founded halogroups. That is big step in knowing his own culture. In Bosnia many people seen Turkey as own culture. They can see DNK of them , and maybe they are also Turkish.

----------


## TurkmenCopur

> I am glad that Turkish etnic group have founded halogroups. That is big step in knowing his own culture. In Bosnia many people seen Turkey as own culture. They can see DNK of them , and maybe they are also Turkish.


Yes, Bosniacs are of Turk Origin, and i have seen many Bosniacs who have same culture like Turkiye Turks.

----------


## Taranis

Haplogroup *G2a3* has been found in skeletons of the Linear Pottery Culture (5000 BC).

Haplogroup *R1a1* has been found in skeletons of the Corded Ware Culture (2600 BC).

Haplogroup *I2b2*, *R1b* and *R1a1* have been found in skeletons from the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC).

Look it up. That it is all I have to say.

----------


## how yes no 2

> Yes, Bosniacs are of Turk Origin, and i have seen many Bosniacs who have same culture like Turkiye Turks.


you mean same religion? 
btw. word Bosniac is invented in 1991 to create illusion of muslim population being more native than christians in Bosnia.... 





> ROFL
> 
> *R1a* is *the only left to belong to Turkish invaders* except G1
> But what parts (DYS) of R1a?
> cause *Slavic R1a is not simmilar to Turkish R1a*,
> find if you are smart what R1a could be Turkish 
> and how much of it is ancient (like Thracian) and how much is new from Zinyiang desert


this is very good point...
R1a are steppe people and Turkic culture developed in one part of the steppe people...

in fact thesis about white Croats (Hrvati) = west (white = west in steppe cultures) Hurians = og (turkic for west) Hurs = Oghurs may be reflected in R1a...

while Serbs and Croats have comparable levels of I2a2, Croats have much more R1a.. however this R1a is largely not the same as the one considered to be Slavic marker...

among R1a there is M458 branch that is present in Europe (along with other R1a branches) but rare in Asia. Therefore, this branch is considered marker of Slavic people... (although it is typically only around half of R1a in Czech, Poles, Slovaks..)

In Croatia however, out of 26.9% R1a only 2.8% is M458, which effectively means that only around 10% of Croatian R1a can be classified as Slavic in origin...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

Although Magyars are not speakers of non-IE Oghur but of Ugro-Finnic non-IE lanuages, another word used for Magyars/Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same tribal name as Oghur... and looking at R1a spread it is clear that proto-Magyars must have been non-IE speaking R1a people...

in Hungary 4.4% out of 20,4% is M458
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2009194x4.pdf

while Croats are reach in R1a and reach in non-Slavic R1a (only 10.4% is M458 compared to up to 50% in Poles, Czechs and Slovaks) 

Serbs are poor in R1a but have significantly higher ratio of Slavic R1a marker M458

4.8% M-458 out of 13.3% R1a in Bosnian Serbs (thus 36% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458) 
3.5% M-458 out of 15.9% R1a in Serbia Serbs (thus 22% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)

there is another big difference in non-Slavic R1a of Croats and non-Slavic R1a of Serbs...
the one in Serbs is according to Klyosov ancient old - much older than the rest of Euroasia (without south Siberia where R1a is oldest) taken together, while the one in Croats is not older than in the rest of Euroasia... thus, the R1a in Serb settled lands had different migration route and has separated from south Siberia cluster 11650+- 1550 years ago, which is long before we can speak about Turkic or Slavic or Germanic culture...
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

possible relation of Croatian R1a to Turkic Oghur people also explains why Scythian people are R1a while their culture reminds of Turkic people more than on Slavic people...

----------


## Alan

> lets See 
> *E-Ydna* is surely not Turkish but *Kushetic* origin 
> *I-YDNA* *is Central Balkan* origin and is characteristic of Kurds who relatives of Serbians Croats Daci (Bosnians are new to be a nation, although after convert developed culture)
> J-YDNA 
> *J1* is semetic mostly middle eastern and Arabian
> *J2a* well it is Anatolian and Greek (Pelasgian-Aegean)
> *J2a8* (Crete-minor asia) & *J2a7* (Trapezus) are considered as *Greek*
> many other *J2a* are considered *Anatolian and Levant* ancient
> *J2b* is also considered *Greek and Levant* 
> ...


Agreement with most what you wrote. But you have to know J1* is not Semitic. It developed together with J2* in Kurdistan West of the Zagros Mountains. It is very strong in parts of the Northern Caucasus Area. You have to differ between the Semitic and non Semitic J1. Only the Subgroup J1c3 has a link to Beduin Arabs who are mainly J1c3d1. But the other subgroups like J1*, J1e etc. are found in high frequency among Caucasians.

----------


## Dalmat

IDK out of ex. Yu people, Serbs usually have Asian shape of eyes(way, way more than Croats or Bosniaks), especially those from Serbia, plus they are one of the most heterogamous nations in Europe.Result of active assimilation tendencies which is still present in muts like Serbs

Pop Dukljanin , which was native to the area, tells paganians,dukljans (unbaptised slavs), modern Croats and Montenegrin, are Croats.

Bosniak representative in Istanbul was named Hirvat-pasha, while on places with most Croatian archeological findings frequency of I2a2 is highest, and those areas till today are populated by Croats.


I am not going to write novels here, with links that dont work, and end up complete retarded dribble, when looked all together, because it is not in my nature, and because i have nothing to prove like my chinked eyed Serb friend. :)

----------


## how yes no 2

> IDK out of ex. Yu people, Serbs usually have Asian shape of eyes(way, way more than Croats or Bosniaks), especially those from Serbia, plus they are one of the most heterogamous nations in Europe.Result of active assimilation tendencies which is still present in muts like Serbs


hm, not sure you have seen much Serbs in your life... as you seems to be very young and Serbs who lived in Croatia were driven out from Croatia by force in 1995th, perhaps before you were born, in the war crime committed by Croat state led by generals convicted by Hague tribunal... 

I'll get back later on slanted eyes remark...




> Pop Dukljanin , which was native to the area, tells paganians,dukljans (unbaptised slavs), modern Croats and Montenegrin, are Croats.


priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims such a thing only in posts on Croatian forums
in fact, priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims south Slavs in general to be Goths and it even explains how division of those Goths on Serbs and Croats happened after kingdom was split in two between two sons....read the text of chronicle and not the forum level chit-chats about it... chronicle is disputed by most historians....





> Bosniak representative in Istanbul was named Hirvat-pasha, while on places with most Croatian archeological findings frequency of I2a2 is highest, and those areas till today are populated by Croats.


was Hirvat-pasha name of person or title? 

I would not be surprised that Turks liked more to use for south Slavs the tribal name of west Oghurs (ak + Hurians = west/white Croats) ...google for text of famous turkish historian Osman Karatay to find out more about turkic roots of proto-Croats... I suggest the following link
http://books.google.nl/books?id=h_Qu...croats&f=false

while obviously proto-Croats were turkic in origin, you claim that proto-Croats were I2a2 people...
but somehow, in Turkey I2a is found in Kurds, and not in turkic settlers...


actually, there was no offical sampling in area around Split which is where I assume one can expect that archeological traces of proto-Croats are to be found. Unofficially, there were rumours that large chunk of people in Split have G2a haplogroup.... if those roumors are true, they might indicate origin from Caucasus and also that proto-Croats were very few among Slavic settlers and previous inhabitant... but from what I have seen so far I think proto-Croats were dominantly R1a people...btw. also in proto-Turks from Turkey dominant could have been G2a and/or R1a haplogroup(s), thogh both haplogroups existed in Anatolia before them as well... other YDNA haplogroups that are present in Turkey are not really spread in areas from which Turks origin...

dunno why Croats are so persistent in trying to link their origin with I2a2 when I2a2 is obviously rather recent admixture to Croatian genetic pool...this is testified by its very localized geographical spread in Croats, by studying detailed family origin of R1a and I2a2 Croatians of today (ask Iapodos for details), by the fact that most I2a2 in Croats clearly origins in south most area of Croatia and from Hercegovina Croats...thus from Paganians or Narentanes who were by neutral history sources claimed to be of Serb origin... 

 

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false





> I am not going to write novels here, with links that dont work, and end up complete retarded dribble, when looked all together, because it is not in my nature, and because i have nothing to prove like my chinked eyed Serb friend. :)


I would have no problems if I had slanted eyes, cause only retards value people by shape of eyes or color of skin... but from my experience while skin color is in average somewhat darker in Serbs than in Croats, slanted eyes are much more common in Croats... well, look at two presidents..Croatia ex-president on right I could easily imagine as politician in China or Mongolia... while Serbia president on left has somewhat more Mediterranean appearance...

----------


## Dalmat

> hm, not sure you have seen much Serbs in your life... as you seems to be very young and Serbs who lived in Croatia were driven out from Croatia by force in 1995th, perhaps before you were born, in the war crime committed by Croat state led by generals convicted by Hague tribunal... 
> 
> I'll get back later on slanted eyes remark...
> 
> 
> 
> priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims such a thing only in posts on Croatian forums
> in fact, priest Dukljanin's chronicle claims south Slavs in general to be Goths and it even explains how division of those Goths on Serbs and Croats happened after kingdom was split in two between two sons....read the text of chronicle and not the forum level chit-chats about it... chronicle is disputed by most historians....
> 
> ...



Lets quote some DAI


-Serbs were a small tribe which settled around Solun(thesallonica)

-They got their name from " serbula" a rags, cloth that designied status of serf-serv-serb, a feudal farmer(which indicates all feudal farmers under Byzantium control were called serbs by them)

-In the fight against Bulgars ,only 50 srebs left of those that were mentioned in migration.

Heterogeneousness of Serfs can vouch for that, its like they are made from people for all neighboring countries.

Mesić is quarter gypsy, and has Serf wife, so that means his children will more gypsy than him.
Plus nobody in Croatia likes him.


Todays Dalmatia and Hercegovina were core of Croatian state, where we spread from.All major cities, of kings, bans, and princes of croatia are from there...




Hags tribunal is a political joke, everyone with IQ over 70 can see that.


Serfs... you have nothing, no culture left behind you, no cities, no real material historical evidence, nothing, and because of that you have this self low value complex you tend to overcompensate with fairytales you write here, like protoserbs were forefathers of all european people...etc.

You live in fantasy world dude...

----------


## how yes no 2

> They got their name from " serbula" a rags, cloth that designied status of serf-serv-serb, a feudal farmer(which indicates all feudal farmers under Byzantium control were called serbs by them)


that would still be far better than having tribal name that means blood like Croats and related Huns do...

Hrvati (tribal name of Croats) is related to Slavic word 'Krv' = blood
Huni in iranian languages also means blood 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

but it is normal that tribal name has inspired same meaning in other people as original Croats were just a Hunish/Turkic tribe....

that Croats were originally Hunish /Turkic tribe is not claimed by me alone... famous historian J.B.Bury explains that Croats were Hunish nation

http://books.google.com/books?id=wDI...page&q&f=false

so does the Osman Karatay
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_Q...B.Bury&f=false

but I think it is self explainable....
Ughur/Ogur = ak (turkic for west) + Hur = west Hurians = white (white is color used for west in stepe people) Hurians = white Croats....

slavic language got new word for blood (krv) due to ways *Hrv*ati treat enemies, same as iranian languages used Hunish tribal name for word for blood...


I think it is clear why...
world wars 1 and 2 clearly showed that Croats maintained culture that have produced lot of maniacal blood thirsty individuals

there is also old German saying "God save us from hunger, Croats and plaque" dating from times when Croats were used as paid soldiers...

btw. I never will understand why Albanians stick with Croats when 
E-V13 Illyrians used to live along Croatian coast... now there is frequency of E-V13 there that is less than in Germany, while there is highest variance of E-V13 in Europe... typical genetic image of massive genocide...

unlike Croats, Serbs didnot kill the previous people when they settled...which is clear from E-V13 around 20% in Serbs and in Montenegro as high as 30%....






> Heterogeneousness of Serfs can vouch for that, its like they are made from people for all neighboring countries.


actually, Serbs from Serbia and Serbs from Bosnia and Serbs from Montenegro have surprisingly similar ratio of haplogroups for scenario of being recently made heterogenous nation... it means there is continuity of ethnic group that stretches long time in past...

while Croats have so big regional differences that can be explained only with them being made by extending Croat tribal name and culture of mass killings to subjugated people of Slavic and Serb origin... some claim that most of Croat nation is made up relatively recently in last 150-200 years by renaming catholics from Dalmatia, west Herzegovina and east and central Slavonia to Croats, while real Croats only lived in west most Slavonia... but I think indoctrination of these people into being Croats started much much earlier...




> Todays Dalmatia and Hercegovina were core of Croatian state, where we spread from.All major cities, of kings, bans, and princes of croatia are from there...


actually, that is one of modern lies...
search for old maps...

in map from 1501 from Etzlaubs, people in Dalmatia are marked as Winden, which is word used by Germans for Slavs, in particular for Sorbs (Lusatian Serbs) ...while Krabatten are in small area between Sava and Drava rivers that stretches only in west most part of Slavonia which is up to the part where Bosnia begins... this is area of Kajkavian dialect speakers...

now you will understand that real Croats are in fact the ones who you, being from Dalmatia, probably think are not real Croats - somewhat slanted eye people from northwest Croatia... people whose ancestors are Hunish/Turkic tribe of Croats..people from area that has like 0% of I2a2 except for Zagreb that has many settlers from other parts of Croatia... people who speak Kajkavian dialect that is in fact entirely different language closer to Slovenian than to other Croatian dialects... pink on the map of Croatia dialects bellow are in fact real Croats... well not even them are same as proto-Croats, as they mostly origin from Slavs who were ruled over by Turkic/Hunish Croat elite...but there you find most genes of real Croats...



Dalmats are just Slavs who are through accepting catholicism converted to Croats...
and many of them origin from Narentanes who were according to DAI just unbaptized Serbs... 

while you probably think areas settled with people who originate from real Croats are marked with blue in the map above, they are in fact marked with pink on the map above...

btw. explanation for other readers: Dalmats are cakavian speakers - area in blue on picture above.... green is area of stokavian speakers which is official dialect in Croatia and in all respects is the same language as Serbian...




> Mesić is quarter gypsy, and has Serf wife, so that means his children will more gypsy than him.
> Plus nobody in Croatia likes him.


yes, you guys hate him so much that you kept him as president for 10 years :)
what a way to express hate..:)

guess he was good to you when he was man with a mission - when he was was last president of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and when his words when wars started were literally something like "my task is well done - Yugoslavia is destroyed. " 

btw. he doesnot look like a gypsy... more like typical Croatian face with somewhat more slanted eyes than average.. guess he has more genes of real Croats... of Turkic/Hunnish elite of proto-Croat people

but than again you probably do not know how gypsies look like, as in Croatia Gypsies, Jews and most Serbs were rounded of in concentration camps in world war 2...





> Hags tribunal is a political joke, everyone with IQ over 70 can see that.


really? but it was not political while it was sentencing Serb generals?

I find very funny all this pathetic with which Croats are handling their generals being sentenced for war crimes...burning EU flags and similar...never expected so childish reaction...
let's take a look some typical Croatian faces and behaviors during support meetings for general Gotovina...

----------


## Dalmat

Serf, name of your nation is based on social status.Stop with the word games!

Really, you are nothing more then product of Peasant Revolt, Serfs are mix of Cincars from Macedonia, Anatolians, Greeks,Bulgarians and Croats, which spread like bacterial infestation during 500 years of Ottoman.
You speak Croatian, and majority of Serf dialects in Servia are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than your official dirty Croatian, with inferior grammar.

Your father of "Servian" language, a Cincar with roots from FJROM named V.S.Karadžić, was expeled from servia by servian nobles because of sightly altered Croatian language for serbian schooling.

Serfs

----------


## how yes no 2

Dalmat, I fail to see any relation of your post to topic....
I was talking about turkish origin of proto-Croats which fits well in the topic...





> Serf, name of your nation is based on social status.Stop with the word games!


what games? proto-Croats are turkic...
that is clearly stated in the books of some respectable historians...

but if you do not trust me...
find out why Huns and Croats are only people (among all people who ever lived in Europe) known for trading in marten skins...
well, take Croat money from pocket and read its name...
"kuna" = marten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna

on other hand, Dalmats are most likely not really Croats... so you are probably not turkic in origin if that is what irritated you so much... I see nothing wrong with people being turkic in origin... with respect to origin and race, all people are equally worth... that is clear to any civilized person...




> Really, you are nothing more then product of Peasant Revolt, Serfs are mix of Cincars from Macedonia, Anatolians, Greeks,Bulgarians and *Croats, which spread like bacterial infestation* during 500 years of Ottoman.


uhm, Croats spread like bacteria infestation...
well, ok...if that is how you see it...

yes, well turkic Croats did indeed spread their cultural influence and tribal identity (via catholicism) from the pink area on the map from previous post into originally Slavic and Serb ethnic body (respectively blue and green in Croatia map) and into continuation of green area in west Herzegovina but not further than that....





> You speak Croatian, and majority of Serf dialects in Servia are much closer to Bulgarian and Macedonian, than your official dirty Croatian, with inferior grammar.


guess non-dirtiness of Croatian language is in using lot of infinitives and in inventing new words for modern international words...
any linguist will tell you that increased use of infinitives is by people who speak non-native language...




> Your father of "Servian" language, a Cincar with roots from FJROM named V.S.Karadžić, was expeled from servia by servian nobles because of sightly altered Croatian language for serbian schooling.


I fail to see why is in your world bad to be Cincar, Anatolian, turkic, Greek, Serb....

as far as I know Vuk Karadzic is from west Serbia but his family has Serb origin from Drobnjak clan from what is now east part of Montenegro... but I really don't care if he was Martian... he did some great things - he improved writing system to be absolutely phonetic (1 letter = 1 sound) and he collected lot of cultural heritage - stories, riddles, epic and liric poems and published it in set of books... if it wasnot for him that treasure would be lost...

----------


## archaiocapilos

Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.

----------


## iapetoc

> Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.


yeah do you know what they in their country, and in their Blogs,

Baltic people are the Turks of the North,

In fact they call them the Turks of the North,

Al dalmatians Bosnian and Serbs are Turks cause I2a2 is simmilar to some Kurds, so half ex Yugoslavia is Turkish,

they colonise them at ottoman time,

they say that Southern Turks stop in Bosnia and not in south Balkans,

----------


## aynurrzepa

> yeah do you know what they in their country, and in their Blogs,
> 
> Baltic people are the Turks of the North,
> 
> In fact they call them the Turks of the North,
> 
> Al dalmatians Bosnian and Serbs are Turks cause I2a2 is simmilar to some Kurds, so half ex Yugoslavia is Turkish,
> 
> they colonise them at ottoman time,
> ...


Hi, Coming back to Turks or rather Turkic speaking ppl of Europe/Caucasus. How about the Azeris? Look at their Y DNAs. MtDNAs are prevailingly European, with H* the highest 27%, HV 6%, T2 10%, U3 2%, U4 8.33%, U5a 8.33%, K 2%, I 2%, W 4% and X 2%, making it total 71.66% and H5 2%, J 4% W & WS Asian and T1 6% Mid Eastern, in total 12 % non European, 16 % other. Azeris are believed to be of first Iranicised and then Turkisised Caucasian stock wirh easrlier Scythian (various types) and later Persian admixtures. On Y DNA, Azeris have 7% R1a (but not sure which subclade - IE or Turkic), 11 % R1b and 3 % I (indifferentiated). Also 18 % G2 (presumable G2a butmaybe Scythian G1), 20% (in some sourcs 31%) J2 and 12% J1 (however this is not differentiated to see if this is semitic J1c3 or caucasian J1*) . They also have 11% T (red sea) and none of the mongol/east asian haplogroups There is 15 Others and from some sources I read this included the ancient F 11% (which is proto -G, J, I, R, K) and ancient K 11% (pre-R1, from Northern Iran). Basically Azeris carry some most ancient DNAs, most of which are proto-European but they ended up with a Oguz Turkic language related to Ottoman Turkish and Turkmen Turkic, as well a Gagauz. How can such ancient ppl of caucasus/Europe end up with a Altaic language? I read here thatn Ottomans were Caucasian ppl with turkuc language... But did they get it, when? Azeris believe their ancestors Oguz Turks were Caucasoid ppl but how can this be? when did thies group of Caucasoid ppl aquire the Altain language and when? 

I also think that the hypothesis of Europeans being turks is wrong and that I came from Mongolia etc. I see it as the carriers of these proto-European Cauasoid haplogroups somehow ended up in Mongolia/Uigurustani as we find from the mummies of the Tarim valley, and it;s their HG that are found in modern Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic speaking Eurasian populations, not that these HGs were turkic and they mmigrated to Europe! The Scythains were also one of Azeri's ancestors, this is see from historical records as wel as from the genetic tests. Possibly some caucasoid Scythians somehow aquited the Turkic language and they brought it to Caucasus? But how and why did they change their original proto-IndoEuropean language to Turkic? And is it possible Scythians (or at least some of them) were Caucasian speakers? It is also believed that Hurrians did not speak IE but Cauasian language, from Nakh family. And where can I find that Avars spoke a Turkic language? Currently Avars in Caucasus speak a Caucasian language. These Avars are believed to travelled from Subartu to Khwaresm in CA/Turkmenistan and from their to Caucasus (wiki refers). Note Subartu=Sabir? it's known more ppl tavelled from North mesopatamia/Anatolia to Cauasus, Nakh speaking Ers (Hers=Hurrians) wiki refers) being one of them (later became part of Cauacasian Iberia and Caucasian Albania). As per wiki, there is a conneciton between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars as to that the latter stole the Scythian Avar's name and settled in North Caucasus. So is it correct to think Avars were turkic speakers or IE Scythians? And maybe Scythians have more Caucasian roots than we think? Although Iranic. IE languages are differrent from Caucasian which are agglutinative languages just like the Mongol and Altaic, Turkic languages. But if early IE have Caucaisian haplogroups, why not presume Scythians also consisted of cauacasian tribes, not only Turkic and IE? Coming back to Azeris, there is over 40,000 Caucasian Avars living in Azerbaijan and some more in Georgia today, all suspiciously closer to ancient Hurrians than to their main home Dagestan. Azeris as i said are believed to be turkified descendants of the Caucasian tribes of Caucasian Albania, who were partly iranised before turkification. And even before the iranisation by Sassanian and Akhamenid Empires, there lived Scythians here, whether they were IE, cauasian or turkic speakers? Did any turkis tribes live in Caucasus in BC? 
Sorry, I know I pose more questions than provide info, but I find this turkic-Caucasian-IE connections intertwining all the time accorss the whole of Eurasia all the time and now through haplogroups as well.. Caucasians being such ancient ppl and Cauasus being a site of ancient humans as found in Azykh cave (jaw bone dated 300,000 years back!), can it not be the place from where all post-African migration people originated from before spilling to Central Asia and form there to pontic-Caspian steppes, Balkans and the rest of Europe?

----------


## aynurrzepa

> no evidence at all...most people in your list are not ethnic Turks... don't mix genetic origin with combination of religious choice with smaller or greater cultural influence...
> 
> bosnian muslims are Slavic people with gene flow from Turkey very likely to be less then 1%, with islam religion and with couple of turkish words in everyday use...
> 
> haplogroup I in Turkey is concentrated in Kurds and people who origin from Balkan people... 
> 
> Chuvash are thought to partially origin from Sabar people who are in fact matching location of earlier mentioned Serboi by Ptolemy and Serians by Seneca...Serians according to Seneca lived in Serica which is north China south Sibir area, in Caspian highlands (where Serboi are mentioned before and Sabirs later), on Red sea, and in Europe around Danube...
> 
> ethnic origin of Gagauz is not known... so far there are 21 theories about their origin..
> ...


Hi.

See this Wiki article on sabirs- Soberoi you mentioned above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabirs

They are believed to have been Turkic... or at least not IE?

See this article from Hebrew history perspecitve... I find it quite interesting and plausible? Here we see thant Turkic ppl descend from Japhet's descendant Magog, from whom scythians and massagets descended! It says nothing abou the languages spoken by this all those people though so doesn't aswere my quesion I previously posted on how Azeris ended up with a Turkic language... So, were Scythians IE speakers? How did later Turkic ppl aquire their Altaic language - simply by borrowing it from Altaic/Mongol people in their eastern migrations??? So origiannly Turks were caucasoid whites and then mixed with Mongols and became Turanoid in the east but remained caucasoid in the west???
http://www.imninalu.net/history03.htm


Now I wanted to say something about hand holding circle dancing and the wolf totem... Not sure about the rest of Turks but both these are Azeri and Turkish peoples' symbols - the hand holding circle dancing (Yalli, also similar to Celtic, Greek, Kurdish and Turkish dances) and all Oguz Turks (who Azeris believe were caucasoid) believe in mother Wolf, their sign is Grey Wolf - Boz Qurd (Kurt, Kurd) they have a hand sign (used by pan-turkist nationalists) representing a head of wolf (slightly similar to the hand sign you show) and in Caucasus lived Mazkuts who are believed to be Massagets whose Queen was Tomyris and the name of the Oguz Turks Mother Wolf who saved Oguz Turks was Tomiris as well. And although it is accepted Massagetae lived in Central Asia, scholars in Caucasus (In Azerbaijana nd Georgia) believe they lived in Caucasus behind Araxes (and not Jaxartes, SyrDarya, there is a confusion based on Herodotus, as where Massagetae lived - east of the Caspian between Syrdarya and Amudarya, or West of Caspian between Araxes and Kura rivers). Massagetae, Mushki, Mskheti, Maskuts were ether type of Scythians or very similar to them. The link above also says Massagetae lived in Caucasus! Also in Azerbaijan historians believe Cimmerians were one of Azeri's ancesntors as well... Cimmerrians were type fo Scytians as well... Go figure now! I'm really wondering... If what turktoresi website says is right about turkic origins of Europeans with one BIG BUT... even if they spoke a Turkic language later, at the time historiasn refer to, they DID NOT SPEAK a Turkic language then, were not the ORIGINAl Turks 9those are originally from Altai) but some of their descendants aquired Turkic language later... So we can see blood/gene/haplogroup connections between western turks (Turks, Azeris, Gagauz) and Eurpeans, Balkanians, Greeks but no blood connecitons (or very little as with Turks in Trkey) with the actual East Asians, Mongols. The question is how, when and why they aquired a turkic language? And why/how some later again lost that Turkic language to an IE language (due to Scythians, Sarmatians, Cimmerians?) and some retained (like Turks and Azeris, Gagauz?)

----------


## aynurrzepa

Dalmat,

I found this you mau find interesting!

http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasia_maps.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasians.htm#Sarmatians , page 12 talks about Chroats and the rest of Eurasian/European people's origins. What's writen there seems quite plausible to me. I mean the whole ancestry and history part, not just the who chroats are part  :Smiling: . What do you guys think here?

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## iapetoc

> Hi, Coming back to Turks or rather Turkic speaking ppl of Europe/Caucasus. How about the Azeris? Look at their Y DNAs. MtDNAs are prevailingly European, with H* the highest 27%, HV 6%, T2 10%, U3 2%, U4 8.33%, U5a 8.33%, K 2%, I 2%, W 4% and X 2%, making it total 71.66% and H5 2%, J 4% W & WS Asian and T1 6% Mid Eastern, in total 12 % non European, 16 % other. Azeris are believed to be of first Iranicised and then Turkisised Caucasian stock wirh easrlier Scythian (various types) and later Persian admixtures. On Y DNA, Azeris have 7% R1a (but not sure which subclade - IE or Turkic), 11 % R1b and 3 % I (indifferentiated). Also 18 % G2 (presumable G2a butmaybe Scythian G1), 20% (in some sourcs 31%) J2 and 12% J1 (however this is not differentiated to see if this is semitic J1c3 or caucasian J1*) . They also have 11% T (red sea) and none of the mongol/east asian haplogroups There is 15 Others and from some sources I read this included the ancient F 11% (which is proto -G, J, I, R, K) and ancient K 11% (pre-R1, from Northern Iran). Basically Azeris carry some most ancient DNAs, most of which are proto-European but they ended up with a Oguz Turkic language related to Ottoman Turkish and Turkmen Turkic, as well a Gagauz. How can such ancient ppl of caucasus/Europe end up with a Altaic language? I read here thatn Ottomans were Caucasian ppl with turkuc language... But did they get it, when? Azeris believe their ancestors Oguz Turks were Caucasoid ppl but how can this be? when did thies group of Caucasoid ppl aquire the Altain language and when? 
> 
> I also think that the hypothesis of Europeans being turks is wrong and that I came from Mongolia etc. I see it as the carriers of these proto-European Cauasoid haplogroups somehow ended up in Mongolia/Uigurustani as we find from the mummies of the Tarim valley, and it;s their HG that are found in modern Turkic and Mongolic, Tungusic speaking Eurasian populations, not that these HGs were turkic and they mmigrated to Europe! The Scythains were also one of Azeri's ancestors, this is see from historical records as wel as from the genetic tests. Possibly some caucasoid Scythians somehow aquited the Turkic language and they brought it to Caucasus? But how and why did they change their original proto-IndoEuropean language to Turkic? And is it possible Scythians (or at least some of them) were Caucasian speakers? It is also believed that Hurrians did not speak IE but Cauasian language, from Nakh family. And where can I find that Avars spoke a Turkic language? Currently Avars in Caucasus speak a Caucasian language. These Avars are believed to travelled from Subartu to Khwaresm in CA/Turkmenistan and from their to Caucasus (wiki refers). Note Subartu=Sabir? it's known more ppl tavelled from North mesopatamia/Anatolia to Cauasus, Nakh speaking Ers (Hers=Hurrians) wiki refers) being one of them (later became part of Cauacasian Iberia and Caucasian Albania). As per wiki, there is a conneciton between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars as to that the latter stole the Scythian Avar's name and settled in North Caucasus. So is it correct to think Avars were turkic speakers or IE Scythians? And maybe Scythians have more Caucasian roots than we think? Although Iranic. IE languages are differrent from Caucasian which are agglutinative languages just like the Mongol and Altaic, Turkic languages. But if early IE have Caucaisian haplogroups, why not presume Scythians also consisted of cauacasian tribes, not only Turkic and IE? Coming back to Azeris, there is over 40,000 Caucasian Avars living in Azerbaijan and some more in Georgia today, all suspiciously closer to ancient Hurrians than to their main home Dagestan. Azeris as i said are believed to be turkified descendants of the Caucasian tribes of Caucasian Albania, who were partly iranised before turkification. And even before the iranisation by Sassanian and Akhamenid Empires, there lived Scythians here, whether they were IE, cauasian or turkic speakers? Did any turkis tribes live in Caucasus in BC? 
> Sorry, I know I pose more questions than provide info, but I find this turkic-Caucasian-IE connections intertwining all the time accorss the whole of Eurasia all the time and now through haplogroups as well.. Caucasians being such ancient ppl and Cauasus being a site of ancient humans as found in Azykh cave (jaw bone dated 300,000 years back!), can it not be the place from where all post-African migration people originated from before spilling to Central Asia and form there to pontic-Caspian steppes, Balkans and the rest of Europe?


the thing you must understand is that except seljuk all the others are relatives to area, 
it is bigger the subject and I don't want to discuss it now, 

just think URUK -Yoruk

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## barbarian

> ...
> I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.


you must stop writing this kind of post. who do you think you are?

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## iapetoc

> Dalmat,
> 
> I found this you mau find interesting!
> 
> http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasia_maps.htm
> http://www.imninalu.net/Eurasians.htm#Sarmatians , page 12 talks about Chroats and the rest of Eurasian/European people's origins. What's writen there seems quite plausible to me. I mean the whole ancestry and history part, not just the who chroats are part . What do you guys think here?



you are connecting different things, even kumans that are mentioned have another area than Bosnia, 
Turkish propaganda is stuck while many Turkish scientists have seen the ones you don't see.

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## aynurrzepa

> you are connecting different things, even kumans that are mentioned have another area than Bosnia, 
> Turkish propaganda is stuck while many Turkish scientists have seen the ones you don't see.


Hi, sorry I could not understand what you wrote.. :-( Could you please re-phrase?

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## iapetoc

> Hi, sorry I could not understand what you wrote.. :-( Could you please re-phrase?


yes modern Turk scientists slowly are talking about the things you don't see, 
they are afraid to speak due to army fear, but the more Turkey becomes democratic, the more they speak,
the old Turkish army speech of Pan-turkish of all non IE etc slowly proves a hoax,

Just think Anonymous attacked Turkey caused IT IS STILL THE COUNTRY WITH MOST Numerous FORBITEN SITES,
that is because although modern turk politician try to bring democracy army still controls the state

there many sites and blogs etc who are forbiden to turks to enter, 
before 1 month anonymous were after your state for censorship 
good scientists are push to back scene, or afraid to talk 
cause some generals force them what to say and what don't 

do you know where live the cumans?
do you know with which families are connected?

*Bosna and Albania are Islamic countries, we all now that, muslimanized at Ottoman times,* 
*But what makes you believe that they are turks? 

islamic culture does not make you a turk
*

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## Alan

> Hahaha!!! Did you notice that this guy is trying to prove that R, I, J and G origin from Turks? I knew that Turks are not that good with science but he has overcome any other Turk i have known so far.


Some People may now understand with what sort of people we have to deal back home. I dont claim that the majority is like this but 10% of this Guys are enough to make your life a hell with their theories.

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## Emi

I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.

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## Maciamo

> I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.


I1 is a typically Germanic/Scandinavian haplogroup. There is a small percentage of I1 around the Black Sea, in the Balkans and Russia, and we were justly discussing a few days ago about how I1 go to the region. My conclusion was that it the Goths in the 4th and 5th century, and the Swedish Vikings in the 11th and 12th century who brought this haplogroup to the Black Sea region.

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## Emi

Maciamo, thank you for your reply. Can you help me understand what the difference between belonging to I1 versus I1* is? Does the latter imply the genes were tested for all subclads but failed to fit into any category? 

I'm a bit confused, and wonder whether there's a website that can complement 23andMe results with more up to date haplogroup information.

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## sparkey

> Can you help me understand what the difference between belonging to I1 versus I1* is? Does the latter imply, the genes were tested for all subclads but failed to fit into any category?


Yep. I1 has a very recent TMRCA and has an expansion that dates quite closely to its TMRCA, so unsurprisingly, there is still a lot of I1* to be explored and placed into new subclades.




> I'm a but confused, and wonder whether there's a website that can complement 23andMe results with more up to date haplogrouping information.


The first places I would look are the FTDNA Project, Nordvedt's resources (check out "Tree and Map for Hg I" in particular), and the Haplogroup I mailing list. Some of those can get quite technical, but plenty of people on forums like this (and on the mailing list itself) are around to help you make sense of it all.

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## Dale Cooper

> My purpose wasnt to define the subgroups, but instead defining the main haplogroups. With athey predictor seems to be the most trustable program for this purpose. Like your comment about Grave 32A, athey predictor gave 42.0% probability of I. But still it is the highest frequency chance. The other 3 have probability frequencies of 91.0%, 71.6% and 88.3%. And the maps are also not based on subgroups, instead using only main haplogroup I.
> 
> As for Bosniacs, historians have proven that Bosniacs are of Turk origin, probably of Kuman Kipchak tribe. And it is well known, that Hun Turks from Western Hun Empire, have settled and stayed in Central Europe/Balkans area.


Can I ask you a favor? Plz stop spreading your propaganda here because you look very funny... how can you say that I2a2 haplogroup have anything to do with Turks, are you crazy or what? Turks don't have I2a2 hg above 4%!!!, hey... 4% :) I2a2 is haplogroup from Europe, it didn't came with turks, that's the most crazy thing I have ever heard in genetic... EVER.

You should be banned from this site because of your false turkish nationalism racist propaganda... I mean, what kind of idiot you have to be, to claim that I2a2 which is present in Croatia 45%, Bosnia 50%, and in parts of Moldova and Ukraine, "came with Turks", who have it in Turkey 4%... hahahah, I mean... WTF?

You know what is the real truth? the real truth is that you turks, every "european" haplogroup you have, you asimilated it trough your conquest of Anatolia and parts of Balkan, that's the real truth... your original genetic, still very present in some parts of turkey like central turkey is of mongol origin, as ofcourse you origin is, a turko-mongol.

The only thing you Turks ever brougth to some balkan countries like Albania, Bulgaria etc is haplogroup J1 in small percentages in this countries... and also J2 which you brought from anatolia, even though that HG was already present in south europe... but this J1 which is of arabic-semitic origin, is the only thing you turks ever brought to Europe, due to your mixing with arabs trough centuries of conquest in middle east.

CIAO

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## barbarian

> You know what is the real truth? the real truth is that you turks, every "european" haplogroup you have, you asimilated it trough your conquest of Anatolia and parts of Balkan, that's the real truth... your original genetic, still very present in some parts of turkey like central turkey is of mongol origin, as ofcourse you origin is, a turko-mongol.
> 
> The only thing you Turks every brougth to some balkan countries like Albania, Bulgaria etc is haplogroup J1 in small percentages in this countries... and also J2 which you brought from anatolia, even though that HG was already present in south europe... but this J1 which is of arabic-semitic origin, is the only thing you turks ever brought to Europe, due to your mixing with arabs trough centuries of conquest in middle east.
> 
> CIAO


i agree with you about "I2a2" stuff, although you are too harsh in selecting words, but... there are some conflicts in your idea. 

1- how can turkish origin people brings J1 to europe since J1 belongs to arabia, caucasia and mesopotomia?
2- how could you explain the considerably higher J1 rates in france, italy, portugal where ottoman did not invade?
3- can you give a link showing the corelation between the central anatolia vs "turco-mongol" genetic similarities?

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## Dale Cooper

> i agree with you about "I2a2" stuff, although you are too harsh in selecting words, but... there are some conflicts in your idea. 
> 
> 1- how can turkish origin people brings J1 to europe since J1 belongs to arabs, caucasians, mesopotiams.?
> 2- how could you explain the considerably higher J1 rates in france, italy, portugal where ottoman did not invade?
> 3- can you give a link showing the corelation between the central anatolia vs "turco-mongol" genetic similarities?


1. I apologize if I was little bit harsh, but that guy really upset my nerves :) anyway... didn't I said how Turks brought J1 to some countries in south east europe? before turks invaded european byzantine part of empire and before they even conqured byzantine western part of anatolia, they were in conflicts on east with arabs, mixing, fighting etc... after that, Ottomans invaded Byzantines, same ottomans who were mixing with arabs on some levels, not great levels, but considerable enough...

2. J1 is present in Portugal (not much, only 3%), due to moorish conquest of Iberian peninsula, same thing goes with Sicily and south Italy, so it's not all Italy, only south Italy with 5% percentage of J1 due to Arabian conquest of Sicily, there is no other explenation...

J2 was already present there long time before arabs came, but J1 came with arabs...

and about France, I really don't know where can you find J1 in France above 1%?

3. Turks in Anatolia have around 10% of J1, which is result of mixing with arabs on some level, later brought to some Balkan countries but not on great level, not above 5% anywhere in Europe. I'm not an exepert in Turkish genetic when it comes about "non-european" haplogroups, but I know that turks in general have around 30% of "non-european" genes, in terms of genes not related anywhere in Europe, haplogroups like J1, T, Q etc...

All of "european" haplogroups in Anatolia and european Turkey around Istanbul, such as J2 (highest amongst turks), E1b1b, G2a is asimilated by original turks from original autohtone pre-ottoman society of anatolia.

For example, turks doesn't have I2a2 above 5%, I1 is 0%, I2b is 0%, R1a is around 6% because of slavic migrations there durin ottoman empire, G2a is 11% (most dominant in Ossetia and Georgia), also due to the fact of mixing with those people there...

But, turks have 16% of R1b, my explanation of that is turks got it from Armenians, who have high percentege of that R1b on east.

That's about all...

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## Taranis

Actually, I must disagree. There are strong reasons to assume that J1 and T were possibly in Europe along of G2a with the Neolithic farmers. Alternatively, there's also a good match between the distributions of J1, T and E1b in many places.

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## barbarian

> 1. I apologize if I was little bit harsh, but that guy really upset my nerves :) anyway... didn't I said how Turks brought J1 to some countries in south east europe? before turks invaded european byzantine part of empire and before they even conqured byzantine western part of anatolia, they were in conflicts on east with arabs, mixing, fighting etc... after that, Ottomans invaded Byzantines, same ottomans who were mixing with arabs on some levels, not great levels, but considerable enough...
> 
> 2. J1 is present in Portugal (not much, only 3%), due to moorish conquest of Iberian peninsula, same thing goes with Sicily and south Italy, so it's not all Italy, only south Italy with 5% percentage of J1 due to Arabian conquest of Sicily, there is no other explenation...
> 
> J2 was already present there long time before arabs came, but J1 came with arabs...
> 
> and about France, I really don't know where can you find J1 in France above 1%?
> 
> 3. Turks in Anatolia have around 10% of J1, which is result of mixing with arabs on some level, later brought to some Balkan countries but not on great level, not above 5% anywhere in Europe. I'm not an exepert in Turkish genetic when it comes about "non-european" haplogroups, but I know that turks in general have around 30% of "non-european" genes, in terms of genes not related anywhere in Europe, haplogroups like J1, T, Q etc...
> ...


i am also not expert on any kind of genetics topic. so lets check together at least these links:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml
http://www.rastider.com/wp-content/u...p-Haritasi.png
http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/11

and then go on discussion :)

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## sonici

As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)
MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.
The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.
Turkic DNA haplogroups: R1a, R1b ... it doesn't mean "If the R haplogroups from same class", the Greek named "Iapetoc" was trying to confuse the thinks of you guys. An advice from me to you, if you're discussing about the Turks, don't trust what Greeks say  :Laughing:  (Historical events among Turks<-Turkics and Greeks)
I DNA(Y-DNA=Racial): Germanic DNA"
R DNA: Turkic(You know: Oghuzes and Kipchaks), Celtic(Some British, German) , Sarmat, Alan, Basque(Some Spanish), Galician(Some Spanish), Thrace(Alexander the Great), Etruscan(Rome founders), Trojan(some sources: Franks), Viking(Rus founders and some Scandinavians), Serb(I think they're descended from Turkic/Avars)" 
___________________
First of all R1a, which is found among Kyrgyz Turks about 60-70%, Shor Turks 58.8%, Teleuts Turks 55.3%, Altai Turks 53.1%. Bashkirs are an exception, they have 86% R1b. The non-Mongoloid skulls found by archeologists in the most ancient layers of Altai and Central Asia only prove that the Türks from the very beginning were both Mongoloids, and non-Mongoloids.
If u'r intersted in further reading I'd recomend you:
M. Zakiev, Origin of Türks and Tatars: Part 1, First chapter


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...A.shtml#Turkic
Andronovo:http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ration_map.jpg

Some people have meant here to confuse you again "The Turks have lived in the far east, how could they've R DNA so related with Westerns"
I'm going to answer:

Turanian culture: Steppe-nomadic culture 
Celt: Nomad 
Sarmatian: Nomad 
Thrace: Nomad 
Etruscan-Trojan: Nomad 
Hun: Nomad (Turkic) 
Scythian: Nomad (Central Asian arms of Scythians: The Turks, Turkic tribes)
Viking:Nomad 
___________
Central Asia grave genetic DNA researches:
Xiaohe: R %100
I call the people who have R DNA as: They're Turanian because they've same ancestry with us, according to some Europeans(like Hitler, I think he was Turkic Khazar: Ashkenazi Jew): we all who have R DNA are Aryans.

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## mihaitzateo

> As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
> Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
> Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)
> MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.
> The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.
> Turkic DNA haplogroups: R1a, R1b ... it doesn't mean "If the R haplogroups from same class", the Greek named "Iapetoc" was trying to confuse the thinks of you guys. An advice from me to you, if you're discussing about the Turks, don't trust what Greeks say  (Historical events among Turks<-Turkics and Greeks)
> I DNA(Y-DNA=Racial): Germanic DNA"
> R DNA: Turkic(You know: Oghuzes and Kipchaks), Celtic(Some British, German) , Sarmat, Alan, Basque(Some Spanish), Galician(Some Spanish), Thrace(Alexander the Great), Etruscan(Rome founders), Trojan(some sources: Franks), Viking(Rus founders and some Scandinavians), Serb(I think they're descended from Turkic/Avars)" 
> ___________________
> ...


Lol,are you serious with Aryans superior race?
You should know that most high-tech factories are in East Asia,not in Germany,neither in Poland,where R1A is very high.
Highest speed train from the world,is in China,Taiwan manufactured electronics are known for being best,Japan made cars,between best and so on.
Original Turkic people were mostly Mongoloid,I think.
And Hitler's theory with Mongoloid people being untermenschen is just pure idiocy,read above,about the mongoloid race achievements,you know,most competitive people in the world are in Singapore,which are mostly Mongoloid race.

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## Aaron1981

Junk post. Evidence is pointing towards Turkics and other Mongoloid people being Q1a, but on top of that C3, N1b, and on some rare occassions O3 will sneak in there too.
R1a/R1b are European types which originated in the western southern most steppes. The East Asians (Turks, Mongols) were further north and east.

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## LeBrok

> As a Cuman/Kipchak/Turkic from Turkey, you guys have so many absurd talking here.. I've read your comments and you guys don't even know what the haplogroups are.
> Genetics haplogroups(eye type, eye color, hair type, hair color, finger type etc.) : A to Z yes.
> Y-DNA: your father's ancestry, father's DNA(your racial-generic DNA)


 It has nothing much to do with race, there is mostly stuff related to being a man, the differences between man and women. Only kids with Y DNA become men. Keep in mind that Y DNA contains 2% of genom. You have to start looking at autosomal DNA, the remaining 98% of genetic information for more info.





> MT-DNA: your mother's DNA, it just effects your genetics... not your ancestry.


 All our DNA comes from our ancestors, making it inherently ancestral. However it is genetic ancestry and has nothing to do with cultural one.




> The people who have R DNA in Germany: Celts of Germany.


As I said above Y DNA has nothing to do with cultural ancestry, such as being German or Celt. Have a look here, R1b is a major haplogroup in some places in Africa. Black Africans can have R1b haplogroup or any other. It just depends on who your father is.

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## albanopolis

Turkey is a multinational state. Any Dna study is senseless. Its known beyond any reasonable doubt that large numbers of Albanians, Greeks, Bosnians, Serbs, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Kurd, Bulgarians, Slav Macedonians,Idians, Blacks, Egytians, reside in Turkey. They are mixed up with Turkic people of Middle ages. Haplogroup E v13 in Turkey is mainly, Alb,Greek, Bulgarin, Bosnian contribution.

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## sonici

> Lol,are you serious with Aryans superior race?
> You should know that most high-tech factories are in East Asia,not in Germany,neither in Poland,where R1A is very high.
> Highest speed train from the world,is in China,Taiwan manufactured electronics are known for being best,Japan made cars,between best and so on.
> Original Turkic people were mostly Mongoloid,I think.
> And Hitler's theory with Mongoloid people being untermenschen is just pure idiocy,read above,about the mongoloid race achievements,you know,most competitive people in the world are in Singapore,which are mostly Mongoloid race.


ahahaha, you can't prove me: "R1a" is very high in Poland..
I haven't said Aryan race is superior, these are human made words..  :Laughing:  by Adolf Hitler. But every religious person should know as all the holy books(Bible,Torah,Quran) say: Gog&Magog race is superior&invader&leader race.. so
"Mongoloid" is a geograpical(asian) eye type, not race type.. also "White-Black-Yellow" aren't race types too, those are differential terms.. "color racists". Race is lineage for me.. warriorism, comes from ancestry.. Race=Lineage is Y-DNA haplogroups for science.
Animals(that can't talk, not civilized) --->> Cats(class): Lion race-Tiger race-Bobcat race-Pet cat race)", Birds(class): " etc..
Humans(Class) --->> Turanian race(Hun=Turk, Celt, Sarmat, Etruscan, Trojan, Thrace, Viking, Basque, Galicia <- Y-DNA: R), Germanic race(Y-DNA: I) etc.
Ancient Turks: Europid(Skull) with Mongoloid(eye type)" ..
Grave DNA researches about proto-Turks: Y-DNA "R" haplogroup with "Europid(skull)-Mongoloid(eye)" type, yes it can be they mixed but still their paternal(Y-DNA = Racial) ancestry is Turkic
Xiaohe(China) graveyards: %100 R DNA
Europid with Mongoloid, from Central Asia of 1-5century(Hun period): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eu...ntury_a.d..jpg
Adolf Hitler was an Ashkenazi Jew, he is related with Turkic tribes, but I won't talk more about his ancestry, if you research you'll find somethings. And also Vlad Drakula(Vlad III) was a Turkic Cuman from Basarab Dynasty.
If Black Africans can have Y-DNA, good detect! which means they have same paternal=racial ancestry with us! I'm not differential racist, I never separate people according to color.. and Y-DNA what race is..

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## sonici

> It has nothing much to do with race, there is mostly stuff related to being a man, the differences between man and women. Only kids with Y DNA become men. Keep in mind that Y DNA contains 2% of genom. You have to start looking at autosomal DNA, the remaining 98% of genetic information for more info.
> 
> 
> All our DNA comes from our ancestors, making it inherently ancestral. However it is genetic ancestry and has nothing to do with cultural one.
> 
> As I said above Y DNA has nothing to do with cultural ancestry, such as being German or Celt. Have a look here, R1b is a major haplogroup in some places in Africa. Black Africans can have R1b haplogroup or any other. It just depends on who your father is.


First, this map is general that means nonsense... does this map make DNA test for +70million population of Turkey??  :Laughing:  really good experience.  :Laughing:  How imporant we have different genetics=eye color, eye type, hair type.. Don't we have same paternal ancestry with Y-DNA R haplogroup??
Y-DNA is paternal=racial DNA, genetics(hair type-color, eye type-color, body type) are different from this thing. Where does sperm come? then you have to think with your brain to understand it.  :Laughing: 
You can find with genetics which races your ancestors mixed with.. also these are your genetic type from the races that your ancestors mixed with.
Y-DNA: is your paternal ancestry, the beginning of humanity.

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## sonici

> Turkey is a multinational state. Any Dna study is senseless. Its known beyond any reasonable doubt that large numbers of Albanians, Greeks, Bosnians, Serbs, Arabs, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Kurd, Bulgarians, Slav Macedonians,Idians, Blacks, Egytians, reside in Turkey. They are mixed up with Turkic people of Middle ages. Haplogroup E v13 in Turkey is mainly, Alb,Greek, Bulgarin, Bosnian contribution.


Hahahah! saying "Dna study is senseless." you're another ultra ignorant..  :Laughing: 
Y-DNA is your paternal=racial ancestry, your racial features come from your father  :Laughing:  but genetic features(hair type-color, eye type-color) from both..!  :Bored:  Then, yes.. Turkey is a multi-ethnic country with %65-70 Turkic population(50-55 million)  :Laughing:  there were Turkic Cumans from Georgian nation who my ancestors were one of them. Because of our genetics and we haven't related with Pontic Greeks according to my father  :Laughing:

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## LeBrok

> First, this map is general that means nonsense... does this map make DNA test for +70million population of Turkey??  really good experience.  How imporant we have different genetics=eye color, eye type, hair type.. Don't we have same paternal ancestry with Y-DNA R haplogroup??
> Y-DNA is paternal=racial DNA, genetics(hair type-color, eye type-color, body type) are different from this thing. Where does sperm come? then you have to think with your brain to understand it. 
> You can find with genetics which races your ancestors mixed with.. also these are your genetic type from the races that your ancestors mixed with.
> Y-DNA: is your paternal ancestry, the beginning of humanity.


No it is not. Y DNA is only 2% of all DNA and doesn't seem to contain any phenotype, physical characteristics that make differences between races. This is what science says. It is autosomal DNA that makes us different, not the uniparental markers.

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## sonici

> No it is not. Y DNA is only 2% of all DNA and doesn't seem to contain any phenotype, physical characteristics that make differences between races. This is what science says. It is autosomal DNA that makes us different, not the uniparental markers.


What?, What?? I haven't ever seen an ignorant like you in my all life, zuhahahaha  :Grin:   :Grin: 
"Y-DNA is paternal" "Paternal is Y-DNA" .... NO-->> %, THERE IS NO % ABOUT Y-DNA haplogroups, Y-DNA means your father's paternal ancestry!!
Sperm=from father(Y-DNA) .... How can I explain it to you, you ignorantistic???
Characteristic=personal, not racial.
Culture=personal, growning type..
Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader.. because you're sperm of your father, you're just a part of your father.  :Laughing: 
Genetic DNA: physical look"
MTDNA: Your mother's DNA, women have not Y-DNA haplogroup.. you can't see it in them during DNA tests, Mothers are just carrier.
You're not a DNA professor, then so much ignorant about DNA haplogroups.. I'm a Turanist, and so much caring about races&DNA haplogroups.
A-Z <- genetic haplogroups are different than Y-DNA&MTDNA haplogroups.
Your R DNA says you have same ancestry with Turkic people and so many Europeans, probably you're a Trojan Frank or Celtic British? who knows?? do you have "genetic" hairy type about %1-%100?? your comments about Y-DNA shows you're anti "Race", you're against the "Race", you're moving with your feelings about what's Y-DNA .... so leave the feelings then talk me about the subject.  :Laughing:  who are you? Celtic European, or Scandinavian Viking or Trojan Frank?
-----
As I said, Animals(that can't talk, not civilized) --->> Cats(class): Lion race[White Lion, Yellow Lion]-Tiger race[Bengal Tiger, Siberian Tiger, White Tiger]-Bobcat race-Pet cat race", Birds(class): " etc..
Humans(Class) --->> Turanian race(Hun=Turk, Celt, Sarmat, Etruscan, Trojan, Thrace, Viking, Basque, Galicia <- Y-DNA: R), Germanic race(Y-DNA: I) etc.

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## sonici

> I'm new to this site, just stumbled upon it when researching I1*. My father's Y-DNA belongs to this group based on 23andMe results. As far as we know, his father and grandfather are from the Black Sea in Turkey -around Giresun-. Any idea whether I1* is common in this region? They were Muslims, though not religious.


Old but interesting, my hometown is Giresun too.. but there were Greeks and Armenians here during WWI, my mother's ancestors are from Sivas-Erzincan cities of Turkey, southern of Giresun.. I wondered if your ancestors are Turkic, Greek or Armenian. My father's ancestors are Georgian "Cuman/Kipchak/Turks" who have invaded Pontic Greek empire.

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## hope

> What?, What?? I haven't ever seen an ignorant like you in my all life, zuhahahaha  
> "Y-DNA is paternal" "Paternal is Y-DNA" .... NO-->> %, THERE IS NO % ABOUT Y-DNA haplogroups, Y-DNA means your father's paternal ancestry!!
> Sperm=from father(Y-DNA) .... How can I explain it to you, you ignorantistic???
> Characteristic=personal, not racial.
> Culture=personal, growning type..
> Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader.. because you're sperm of your father, you're just a part of your father. 
> Genetic DNA: physical look"
> MTDNA: Your mother's DNA, women have not Y-DNA haplogroup.. you can't see it in them during DNA tests, Mothers are just carrier.
> You're not a DNA professor, then so much ignorant about DNA haplogroups.. I'm a Turanist, and so much caring about races&DNA haplogroups.
> ...


Few things..
1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother. 
3/ *Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it.* You have been told this already.
4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks.

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## LeBrok

First, watch your attitude towards others or you'll be banned quickly.




> so leave the feelings then talk me about the subject.


Show us scientific data to support your statement:




> Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader..

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## sonici

> First, watch your attitude towards others or you'll be banned quickly.


<- hahahah! are you afraid of my informations??  :Laughing:  I don't care if I get banned "quickly" or "anytime" lool  :Grin: 





> Show us scientific data to support your statement:


DNA <- is scientific, is it enough for you..?  :Wary:  you didn't even know what DNA haplogroups are and you're still talking man!  :Petrified:  I explained the same, learn from him: 




> Few things..
> 1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
> 2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother. 
> 3/ *Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it. You have been told this already.
> 4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks.*


,
By the way, answer for "4/" I've discussed on "interpals" forum ever and I haven't use insults against someone about these subjects ever.. I move carefully on the forums, the right people win on the forums..  :Laughing: 
Y-DNA = "paternal=what race is", sperm from father..(logical)
Genetic DNA=Autosomal.. <- genetics(hair-eye type, hair-eye color) aren't important about racial because it doesn't determines your race.  :Useless:  Think like, can a soil give to you a rose if you haven't planted the seed of rose? NO! if you plant rose, you take rose.. if you plant potato, you take potato. If "sperm(seed) belongs to father, the son who was born will be from the race of his father..  :Smile:

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## hope

> Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
> Few things..
> 1/ Y- DNA is DNA inherited from father. It passes from father to son. Males with common paternal ancestor have similar Y-DNA.
> 2/ mtDNA is carried by both males and females but is inherited only from the mother.
> 3/ Autosomal DNA...is responsible for most physical characteristics.. height, eye colour etc. It is inherited from both parents. both sons and daughters carry it. You have been told this already.
> 4/ And very important ...read the Eupedia rules. Perhaps in future you will post without calling people names or entering into personal attacks. :


You see the name of the poster, that thing to left of screen, is usually enough of a clue to the members here regarding who posted . Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this! 
You have been told what role Autosomal DNA plays...what is it you don`t grasp about the information?
And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?

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## sonici

> You see the name of the poster, that thing to left of screen, is usually enough of a clue to the members here regarding who posted . Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this! 
> You have been told what role Autosomal DNA plays...what is it you don`t grasp about the information?
> And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?





> Not so much for you, it appears. The quote you answered was mine..not the poster LeBrok . I don`t even know how you managed this!


 <- "forgetfulness" is a Human feature that very ordinary, don't blame me with this ordinary mistake.. the cause of, you wanted to blacken my thesis.  :Laughing:  so don't console yourself  :Laughing: 
Hahahah! did you know what happened? it just like you're appyling my trap against me  :Laughing:  :Laughing: 



> And as for your rose seeds, potato seeds or whatever horticultural seeds you have, I think even here you will find they contain the DNA of female plant but can`t develop into complete seeds without the added DNA of male plant...you`re not so good at gardening either, are you?


 "there is no male or female of plant" <- sorry, your brain is died here ...  :Laughing:  the plant looking is: "Autosomal=genetics" man.. it just includes looking, okay?  :Laughing:  the second is, it has nothing to do with gardering.. it's about thinking logical, Plant=Human=Animal
. As I said 



> Think like, can a soil give to you a rose if you haven't planted the seed of rose? NO! if you plant rose, you take rose.. if you plant potato, you take potato. If "sperm(seed) belongs to father, the son who was born will be from the race of his father..


The one of facts here you don't know, this is why you're still not understanding  :Bored:   :Indifferent: 
Potato: Plant.
Rose: Plant.  :Good Job:

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## Ike

> it's about thinking logical, Plant=Human=Animal


All vs. Zombies?
Or just representatives fight: Robert Plant, Brad Pit and Snoopy vs. Rob Zombie?

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## Alan

It is true that autosomal DNA is mostly responsible for physical appearance but I think y and mtDNA play a bigger role as we might know for now. There must be a reason that even in our genome these two things are "highlighted". Y and mtDNA might have effects on some characteristics.

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## LeBrok

> It is true that autosomal DNA is mostly responsible for physical appearance but I think y and mtDNA play a bigge rrole as we might know for now. Ther emust be a reason that even in our genome these two things are "highlighted". Y and mtDNA might have effects on some characteristics.


 Of course, but our arguments were against this ridiculous statement:





> _Racial features(paternal=Y-DNA): being warrior, being invader.._

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## mihaitzateo

In my opinion,LeBrok is abusing his powers.
Is this a forum where free speech is promoted,or a forum where LeBrok and others are dictating to us what to believe and what to not believe?
Sonici had a very good point,why he got banned?
Is very well known that autosomal DNA comes 50% from your mother and 50% from your father.
For example,an East Asian bearing C or another East Asian paternal line,makes a child with a central asian mother.
Now,this child is bearing both East Asian and Central Asian autosomal genetics.
Further,this child is making a child with Caucasian woman.
Now this child got 25% East Asian,25% Central Asian,50% Caucasian.
And so on.
So is actually impossible that even after 100 generations,to not have some autosomal genetics related to your paternal HG.
As for being warrior or not,no one knows if this is related to your father or no,how much is related to education and so on.
Again,I support the free speech on this forum,as long as a person is not using insults towards other persons.
LeBrok threatened to ban me,because what I have posted something on the topic with Crimeea,saying it is "offensive" or something and gave me some kind of penalty.
Even though I have not insulted anyone on this forum.
Just my opinion,are quite few posting on this forum,is not like CNN or BBC or Russia Today,so why not just tell your opinions?
Someone has an opinion on a matter,another one,has another opinion and so on.

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## LeBrok

> Sonici had a very good point,why he got banned?
> .


 He was banned for being disrespectful to Eupedia members and for ignoring of moderator warnings.

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## Theodorik

You seem to be unaware of the fact that most people in Turkey are descended from the people who lived there before the Turkic invasion. The invading Turks only contributed a small part of the DNA. Of course, the Turkish language did come from the Turkic invaders. The original Turks came from what is now Mongolia. They were Caucasoids. Their language belonged to the Altaic branch of Nostratic.
"Noah's Flood and the Nostratic Dispersion"The Nostratic macrofamily of languages was discovered by linguists. It appears that Indo-European, Semitic, Dravidian, Egyptian, 
Sumerian, and other language families have a common origin.
Archaeology is now providing us with evidence of a mass dispersal of peoples from the flooded Black Sea around 5600 BC which could explain the origins of Nostratic.
Here are a few quotations from NOAH'S FLOOD, THE NEW SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES ABOUT THE EVENT THAT CHANGED HISTORY, by William Ryan and Walter Pitman. N.Y., Simon and Schuster, 1998.
Page 188: "The ocean bursting through Bosporus in 5600 B.C. so violently cleaved Europe from Anatolia that it would have been several years before anyone dared make passage across."
Page 189 Map "Inferred human migrations west and northwest into Europe in the wake of the Black Sea flood"
The map shows five migrations.
1. Danilo-Hvar from Bosporus, around Greece, and north into Serbia
2. Hamangians from Rumanian coast southwards into Bulgaria and Thrace
3. Vincas along Danube through Belgrade and up to Budapest. Origin of famous Vinca culture with primitive writing.
4. Linear Pottery Farmers (LBK) through Moldavia across central Europe to Paris
5. Proto-Indoeuropeans up the Dnieper River into Russia
"It seemed clear to Vasic that the Vinca had built on the deserted ruins of an older culture. Makers of lovely wattle and daub houses and fine incised pottery, the Vinca appeared abruptly on the plains of Bulgaria within a century and a half after the flood, settling also on river terraces of the southern Hungarian plain and in mountain valleys as far south as the Vardar River in Macedonia. They constructed well-planned permanent villages on leveled ground with parallel rows of houses separated by streets."
Page 190: (Vinca) "They plastered their floors with white clay. But instead of constructing their walls of mud-brick, they built them from split timber planks or hewn posts interwoven with twigs and covered with a thick layer of mud plaster. Archaeologists have uncovered shrines decorated by bucrania, attached to a wall beam as in the shrines of Anatolia.
"Vasic saw no continuity between the Vinca culture and the underlying strata of their predecessors but rather thought the Vinca were outsiders who settled on a previously abandoned site. Their art and pottery were so exceptional and in such contrast to the prior occupants that Vasic mistakenly identified this 'as a center of Aegean civilization in the second millennium B.C.'" It was actually over 3,000 years older than he thought.
"LBK culture....their longhouse building style, never before seen in Europe, these huge timber-framed houses, up to 150 feet in length, were organized into villages founded exclusively on the fertile loess soil blown across Eurasia during the sky-darkening sandstorms of the last Ice Age. THESE DWELLINGS WERE THE LARGEST FREESTANDING BUILDINGS IN THE WORLD FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS (emphasis added)"
Page 191: "A very striking feature of the LBK is the homogeneity in pottery design, stone tools, village plan, house shape, burial practices, and economy over the vast territory into which these people appeared, suggesting that their dispersal was almost instantaneous. Experts specializing in pottery from Belgium can readily recognize shards from Moldavia as if they had been crafted nearby in France. The domesticated plants and animals show practically no variation from village to village across a span of a thousand miles or more. But there is a dramatic cultural gap between the preexisting sparse hunter-gatherer population and the 
LBK homesteaders." This is another blow to the theory of Renfrew and Cavalli-Sforza that Indo-European languages spread with neolithic farmers from Turkey. Wrong place, wrong time, wrong direction.
Danilo-Hvar "They crafted a now-famous pot decorated with a sailing ship, depicting masts and rigging dated at about 4000 BC." They imported obsidian from Italy.
Page 194 Map "Inferred human migrations northeast into Asia and southeast into the Levant, Egypt, and Mesopotamia" Going clockwise, the following migrations are shown:
1. Proto-Indoeuropeans up the Dnieper into Russia
2. Proto-Indo-Europeans up the Don into Russia and eastwards to the Urals and south of the Urals and from there to Kazakhstan and western China
3. Ubaids from Georgia eastwards and then southwards to Sumer in Iraq
4. "Semites" from southeastern Black Sea to Halaf and Abu Hureyra in Iraq and Syria. This one is doubtful.
5. From just east of Istanbul we have a migration which branches into
....a. migration to Hacilar, in western Turkey
...b. migration of "Predynastic Egyptians" to Çatal Hüyük and Mersin in Turkey, along the Mediterranean coast past Jericho into Egypt.
It might be more accurate to call the second branch "Proto-Afroasiatic Speakers" . Hacilar and Çatal Hüyük might come from a different branch originating farther west than the Afroasiatic branch.
"The craftsmen who reoccupied Hacilar after its desertion created sophisticated painted pottery, more technologically advanced in style and fabrication than any contemporary pottery found elsewhere in the entire Near East."
Page 196: Caption "The elaborately decorated pottery that appeared in Syria and Mesopotamia in the centuries bracketing the Black Sea flood." 
"Others have assigned a northern or Anatolian origin to the [beautiful colored pottery of] Halaf."
"As Moore has pointed out, there was a sizable influx of farming peoples along the coast of Lebanon and in its valleys in the mid sixth millennium B.C. Were these refugees from the flood?
"Egypt had experienced a rapid cultural and economic change during the same period, at the time of the flood. A new flint industry was introduced, epitomized by two-sided flaked tools, which was much more in common with the industry of Çatal Hüyük, Hacilar, and Jericho than with the preceding African designs. In addition, the art of pottery making appeared for the first time in the Nile Valley. Domesticated cereals and animals with direct genetic affinity to Asia were also suddenly adopted, along with the first systematic practice of planting and harvesting in fields watered from the Nile." The similarity of the Egyptian language with the Semitic languages of southwest origin also indicates a common origin.
Page 197: Advanced farmers with a culture similar to the Halafian of Iraq settled along the Rioni River between the Black and Caspian Seas right after the flood.
"Carbon 14 dating places the settling of the Transcaucasus contemporaneously with the beginning of the LBK dispersal, the defense and fall of Hacilar, the arrival of newcomers in the Levant--particularly in the valleys and along the coast of Lebanon and at Tell Ard Tlaili in Palestine--the introduction of Asian domesticates in Egypt, and the flooding of the Black Sea." We are probably dealing with the related Kartvelian, Sumerian, and Elamo-Dravidian language families, which form a cluster within Nostratic and were first spoken in the Caucasus, Turkey, Iraq, and western Iran.
"Except for a few isolated settlements where its margin meets with the foothills of the Zagros Mountains, the land between the great rivers south of Baghdad was unoccupied at the time of the flood." Many Sumerians were represented with blue eyes and Armenoid features, and book The Races of Europe described the Sumerians as largely of the Old Mediterranean Race and identical to ancient Egyptians and skulls in London plague pits. The Old Mediterranean Race is largely extinct today.
Page 200: "Sir Arthur Keith describes the skeletal remains in Woolley's expedition report: 
'The southern Mesopotamians...had big, long and narrow heads....Their affinities [were] with the peoples of the Caucasian or European type....We may regard southwestern Asia as their cradleland until evidence leading to a different conclusion comes to light. They were akin to the pre-dynastic people of Egypt.'"
The 1993 YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY compared the anthropological measurements of ancient Egyptians with many modern and ancient peoples. Surprisingly, the closest match of all was to people of Neolithic France! This same Old Mediterranean Race built the earliest megaliths of Europe and the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Sumer, Indus Valley, and Crete.
"In the Sumerian language most of the root words are monosyllabic. However, those having to do with agriculture and crafts are polysyllabic, such as the words for farmer, herdsman, fisherman, plow, furrow, metalworker, blacksmith, carpenter, basketmaker, weaver, leatherworker, potter, mason, and even merchant. These may have indeed been brought to Mesopotamia from the Black Sea melting pot on the journey south and later passed from the Ubaids to their Sumerian successors."
PBS - Scientific American Frontiers | Beneath the Sea | Noah's Flood 
Address: 
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm Changed:6:40 PM on Sunday, May 4, 2003
Black Sea Flood Cultures - Dnieper Donets Boian Baltic 
Address: 
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi142.htm Changed:10:15 AM on Friday, June 21, 2002
BlackCas6000_v3.gif 
Address: 
http://glen-gordon.tripod.com/LANGUA...Cas6000_v3.gif Changed:9:08 AM on Monday, March 5, 2001
http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleolingo
http://forums.delphiforums.com/paleolinguistic
http://forums.delphiforums.com/prehistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/biohistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory4
http://forums.delphiforums.com/indoeuropean
http://forums.delphiforums.com/physanthro
http://forums.delphiforums.com/techhistory
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23

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## Angela

> So is actually impossible that even after 100 generations,to not have some autosomal genetics related to your paternal HG.
> As for being warrior or not,no one knows if this is related to your father or no,how much is related to education and so on.


You might care to read the following statistical analysis of the likelihood of inheriting genetic material from any one specific ancestor.
http://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-muc...ular-ancestor/

Clearly, it is indeed possible that even after only nine generations one inherits _no_ autosomal genetic material from one particular ancestor. So, it's indeed possible that a man might inherit _nothing_ from his ydna ancestor but the ydna itself.

Ed. Of course, in situations where we're not talking about an individual man but about a folk movement of a significant kind, the autosomal material will circulate and be passed around, and might show up in autosomal analyses. It all depends on the number of people, men in this case, who formed part of the new genetic flow.

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## Alan

> In my opinion,LeBrok is abusing his powers.
> Is this a forum where free speech is promoted,or a forum where LeBrok and others are dictating to us what to believe and what to not believe?
> Sonici had a very good point,why he got banned?
> .



Sonici got no point. Spreading unsupported things without even providing any source is not considered "right of free speech" but anywhere else as Trol ling and spamming.

He permanently told me per PM that I am a confused "kurdified" Seljuk and that Kurd is not an ethnicity but some mix of various people who are confused. (Basically what has been told to Kurds by oppressive regimes throughout history).

For him Scythians were Turks, Celtics were Turks, Germanics were Turks, Kurds are Turks, Mal'ta Boy was a Turk. Basically anything is Turk. How the heck does this fit into "freedom of speech"?

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## Ike

> Sonici had a very good point,why he got banned?


I couldn't understand a thing he was trying to say. So, to get back on track - what was his point?
He probably had a lot of points, but only the good ones please :)

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## Frédéric

Frederic from France, i am a geneticist, i was busy with researching, and came across an article at the following url http : // www . turktoresi.com /viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267.
I am quite impressed with the contents of the article, it is a very helpful site, i benefited a lot from it during our project.
Anyhow, i dont have much spare time, i just wanted to quickly mention that the user with nickname "TurkmenCopur" in this topic was right with the thesis he or she was defending. Regards to all, and good luck.

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## Arame

Frederic
Just a quote from Your link




> The language of these Sumerians was Turkish, and out of this Turkish language during the years between 2000-1000 BCE new languages and alphabets have occurred.


No comments  :Laughing:

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## Sile

> Frederic
> Just a quote from Your link
> 
> 
> 
> No comments


Is frederic the same person as TurkmenCopur ?

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## Tomenable

Pan-Turanists are almost as persistent in pursuing their "genetic Turks" agenda as Pan-Germanists are with their "genetic Germanics" agenda. Basically all Y-DNA HGs found in Turkic-speakers must be "originally Turkic" and all Y-DNA HGs found in Germanic-speakers must be "originally Germanic", according to these two types of nutters. Both also claim to be fathers of speakers of other languages.

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## arvistro

I might also add Pan-Slavicists to the list :), Pan-Albanists, Pan-Celtists and to be fair Pan-Baltists too  :Laughing:

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