# Population Genetics > Autosomal Genetics >  Are Gypsies Eastern European Genetically?

## JQP4545

I had a test done with 23andMe and my results show that I have some Eastern Euro DNA. I'm not sure where this came from because my known ancestors are from Western Europe (Ireland and Germany). Does this mean I could have had ancestors who were Gypsies?

----------


## LeBrok

Do you think that Eastern Europeans are all Gypsies? Maybe you think that only Gypsies could travel from East to West?
It is estimated that there is 10 million Gypsies in Europe. Total population of Europe is around 750 million.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_by_country

----------


## Sile

> I had a test done with 23andMe and my results show that I have some Eastern Euro DNA. I'm not sure where this came from because my known ancestors are from Western Europe (Ireland and Germany). Does this mean I could have had ancestors who were Gypsies?


What % did they give you.?
I was given 0.01% and they said anything below 4% is irrelevant

----------


## Maciamo

> I had a test done with 23andMe and my results show that I have some Eastern Euro DNA. I'm not sure where this came from because my known ancestors are from Western Europe (Ireland and Germany). Does this mean I could have had ancestors who were Gypsies?


Eastern European DNA in Western Europe is usually of Indo-European origin (linked to Y-happlogroup R1a). Germanic people have a higher percentage of Eastern European admixture than Celtic people. You can get a better idea with this map.

If you are referring to the Dodecad admixture, most Gypsies should have very little if any Eastern European admixture. They are originally South Asian, and Dravidian to be more specific (Y-haplogroup H1a), and the admixtures they acquired through intermarriages is mostly Caucasian/West Asian and Balkanic/Mediterranean (Y-haplogroups E1b, G2a, I2a1b, J2), not Balto-Slavic (R1a).

----------


## BakodiP

> I had a test done with 23andMe and my results show that I have some Eastern Euro DNA. I'm not sure where this came from because my known ancestors are from Western Europe (Ireland and Germany). Does this mean I could have had ancestors who were Gypsies?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...udy-shows.html

You're welcome!

(For the record it's really hard not to say anything wrong about your mental status for asking this question...)

----------


## JQP4545

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...udy-shows.html
> 
> You're welcome!
> 
> (For the record it's really hard not to say anything wrong about your mental status for asking this question...)


Is it a dumb question? It's certainly possible, and I would find it fascinating to have a Roma ancestor.

----------


## JQP4545

Don't most Europeans have ancestry from Northwest India? I believe it is called the Gedrosia component. So how could I detect this on GEDMatch?

----------


## Maciamo

> Don't most Europeans have ancestry from Northwest India? I believe it is called the Gedrosia component. So how could I detect this on GEDMatch?


Not from Northwest India, but from the region around modern Iran. Dienekes named the admixture "Gedrosian" but it is an arbitrary choice. It could have been called 'Persian' or 'Iranian', or even better 'Caspian', as it reaches high frequencies in Central Asia too, and would exceed the frequency in India were it not for the European/Russian and East Asian admixtures that were brought by invaders between the Bronze Age and the Middle Ages.

Unfortunately I don't have any data on Gypsy autosomal DNA, but their primary admixture in the K12b would surely be South Asian, not Gedrosian, as they originated in South India. If they have some Gedrosian it would have been picked up along the way together with Caucasian/West Asian and European admixtures, as their mixed Y-DNA and mtDNA suggests.

----------


## BakodiP

> Is it a dumb question? It's certainly possible, and I would find it fascinating to have a Roma ancestor.


Yeah it would be fascinating, but how could you thought it could be a considerable possiblility and not just whisful thinking? Because you have x% Eastern European admixture? Oh come on! You should have read something (even wikipedia article) about Gypsies before asking this question. By asking it you just proved that you know absolutly nothing about them, maybe some childhood stories from the Hunchback of Notre Dame and things like that...

----------


## JQP4545

> Yeah it would be fascinating, but how could you thought it could be a considerable possiblility and not just whisful thinking? Because you have x% Eastern European admixture? Oh come on! You should have read something (even wikipedia article) about Gypsies before asking this question. By asking it you just proved that you know absolutly nothing about them, maybe some childhood stories from the Hunchback of Notre Dame and things like that...


I did do research and my research found that Gypsies are predominately mixed with Europeans. Some people reported that they were 70-90 percent Euro in ancestry and I though many came from Eastern Euro. Yes I know they came from India originally, but that was 1,000 or more years ago.

----------


## Goga

> Eastern European DNA in Western Europe is usually of Indo-European origin (linked to Y-happlogroup R1a). Germanic people have a higher percentage of Eastern European admixture than Celtic people. You can get a better idea with this map.


Germanic people have higher percentage of Eastern European auDNA is due to genetic exchange with Slavic people. Germanic are neighbors of Slavic peoples for thousands of years, both groups are living next to each other, while Celtic groups are more located to West-Southwest. So, that why Slavic peoples have Germanic DNA in them and Germanic people have Slavic DNA in them. It has nothing to do with Indo-European auDNA. Celts live much further away from Slavic homeland. I’m sure that European Gypsies have European auDNA!

----------


## BakodiP

> I did do research and my research found that Gypsies are predominately mixed with Europeans. Some people reported that they were 70-90 percent Euro in ancestry and I though many came from Eastern Euro. Yes I know they came from India originally, but that was 1,000 or more years ago.


I can assure you that Gypsies and Eastern Europeans never mixed in a great scale. I don't know where you've found those people who reported that, but it's surely false. Until recent times ('50-'60s) Gypsies haven't settled in a permanent place, they were always on the move, mostly get by on minor craftworks or criminal activities. The old Eastern European society would have never accepted (even just a sexual) a relationship between a Gypsy and a member of the majority population. Note that at those times it was impossible to marry if the two lovers weren't in the same sect. International marriages were limited also. Multinational settlements were clearly splitted by ethnic and sectarian boundaries. Intercourses could be occured two ways: rape or pay for sex. But due to their low reputance it not happened many times.

----------


## Maciamo

> Germanic people have higher percentage of Eastern European auDNA is due to genetic exchange with Slavic people. Germanic are neighbors of Slavic peoples for thousands of years, both groups are living next to each other, while Celtic groups are more located to West-Southwest. So, that why Slavic peoples have Germanic DNA in them and Germanic people have Slavic DNA in them. It has nothing to do with Indo-European auDNA. Celts live much further away from Slavic homeland. I’m sure that European Gypsies have European auDNA!


The Dutch, Belgians, Scots, Norwegians and Icelanders surely had quite limited genetic exchange with Slavic people as they are not direct neighbours with any of them. Anyway I seriously doubt than cross-cultural intermarriages between regions that never not belonged to the same country would account for more than a tiny fraction (<1%) of all DNA in a population. Political borders and language barriers are strong deterrents to intermarriages. If that did not convince you, just check the facts: over 95% of R1a in Germanic countries in of non-Slavic origin (subclades L664 and Z284), and the 5% that could be Slavic is found almost exclusively in areas that were part of the Corded ware culture or the Holy Roman Empire (most Germany), or Austria because of its own empire comprising many Slavic regions.

----------


## Goga

Anglo-Saxons in Britain and Germanic Saxon & Batavi tribe in the Netherlands migrated out of Germany / Central Europe in the 5th century AD. So they were already mixed with the Slavic tribes. Also there has been not only a genetic exchange, but also a cultural exchange between Slavic and Scandinavian tribes for ages.

----------


## BakodiP

> Anglo-Saxons in Britain and Germanic Saxon & Batavi tribe in the Netherlands migrated out of Germany / Central Europe in the 5th century AD. So they were already mixed with the Slavic tribes. Also there have been not only a genetic exchange, but also a cultural exchange between Slavic and Scandinavian tribes for ages.


Cultural exchange happens much more easier than genetic exchange... Maybe proto-Slavs had some connections with Eastern Germanic tribes, but I don't think it has a genetic relevance. Intermarriages are quite uncommon during those times (only exception the nobility maybe), and there weren't any large scale wars where a big number of rapes could happen, and uniqe love stories have no relevance of course. Maybe slave trade could alter my view but at this part of Europe it was not a widespread phenomenon.

----------


## JQP4545

> Cultural exchange happens much more easier than genetic exchange... Maybe proto-Slavs had some connections with Eastern Germanic tribes, but I don't think it has a genetic relevance. Intermarriages are quite uncommon during those times (only exception the nobility maybe), and there weren't any large scale wars where a big number of rapes could happen, and uniqe love stories have no relevance of course. Maybe slave trade could alter my view but at this part of Europe it was not a widespread phenomenon.


So then where does the Eastern European come from?

----------


## BakodiP

> So then where does the Eastern European come from?


I think most probably Slavic origin. Nearly whole Eastern Europe is of Slavic origin. But I think it's more recent than 500 A.D. Look at the autosomal maps at the Genetic section here on Eupedia.

----------


## JQP4545

> I think most probably Slavic origin. Nearly whole Eastern Europe is of Slavic origin. But I think it's more recent than 500 A.D. Look at the autosomal maps at the Genetic section here on Eupedia.


But I don't have any known Slavic ancestors, the closest would be Bavarian.

----------


## silkyslovanbojkovsky

It is most likely what Maciamo said or it could be due to genetic drift from Slavic countries its either one of those. You don't have to have any known Slavic ancestors to show up as easter European, because you probably don't know that far back into your family tree. Our genes were inherited from hundreds to thousands of years ago. I also don't know why you would think it was gypsy, eastern European dna has nothing to do with Romani dna which comes from India. It does mean though that a percentage of your genes are in common with Slavic people, so you are related to them

----------


## matbir

> The *Dutch*, Belgians, Scots, Norwegians and Icelanders surely had quite limited genetic exchange with Slavic people as they are not direct neighbours with any of them. Anyway I seriously doubt than cross-cultural intermarriages between regions that never not belonged to the same country would account for more than a tiny fraction (<1%) of all DNA in a population. Political borders and language barriers are strong deterrents to intermarriages. If that did not convince you, just check the* facts: over 95% of R1a in Germanic countries in of non-Slavic origin (subclades L664 and Z284), and the 5% that could be Slavic* is found almost exclusively in areas that were part of the Corded ware culture or the Holy Roman Empire (most Germany), or Austria because of its own empire comprising many Slavic regions.


That is not true. I have just checked frequencies from Underhill et al. (2009) these are results: Netherlands 40% of R1a is M458, South Sweden 11%, Denmark 8%, Germany 35%, Austria 20%, and Poland 55%. Look that it is only M458 and Z280 was not tested. I would rather tell that R1a in continental Germanics is in majority of Slavic origin, and especially in Germany and Netherlands in vast majority, while in Norwegians and English men it is absent or very rare.

----------


## JQP4545

> That is not true. I have just checked frequencies from Underhill et al. (2009) these are results: Netherlands 40% of R1a is M458, South Sweden 11%, Denmark 8%, Germany 35%, Austria 20%, and Poland 55%. Look that it is only M458 and Z280 was not tested. I would rather tell that R1a in continental Germanics is in majority of Slavic origin, and especially in Germany and Netherlands in vast majority, while in Norwegians and English men it is absent or very rare.


23andMe is supposed to be accurate to modern borders right? So it shouldn't show ancient slavic. If I have Eastern European Ancestry that means the last 500 years, correct?

----------


## matbir

Maciamo posted map of east European admixture, according to this map Bavarians supposedly have between 15 and 30% of it. So that could be the answer of your question. I thing the borders have nothing to do with it.

----------


## ElHorsto

North-West europeans with zero East-Euro ancestry? That would be a very artificial separation because east-west fst distance is very small in the north due to the large paleolithic and indo-european north-european component shared by both, the north east and north west.

----------


## JQP4545

> North-West europeans with zero East-Euro ancestry? That would be a very artificial separation because east-west fst distance is very small in the north due to the large paleolithic and indo-european north-european component shared by both, the north east and north west.


23andMe does not use prehistoric admixture that I am aware of. Some whose ancestors all came from Ireland should show up as 100% British/Irish on 23andMe.

----------


## JQP4545

Would you like me to do another test on GEDMatch and share the results?

----------


## ElHorsto

> 23andMe does not use prehistoric admixture that I am aware of. Some whose ancestors all came from Ireland should show up as 100% British/Irish on 23andMe.


Ok, but there is a limited precision of 90% it seems. Is your East-Euro ancestry < 10%?

----------


## JQP4545

Yes it is 2.2%.

----------


## JQP4545

According to Dodecad V3 I'm 10.6 percent East European and 2.36 Southwest Asian.

----------


## Ike

> I did do research and my research found that Gypsies are predominately mixed with Europeans. Some people reported that they were 70-90 percent Euro in ancestry and I though many came from Eastern Euro.


No chance. Gypsies are easily distinguishable in the mass of people by their looks, even here in the Southern Europe. They are very dark skinned.

----------


## Alexandros

It does not matter if you don't have a known Slavic ancestor. This is the point o doing a genetic test. Discovering UNKNOWN ancestors not confirming known. I do not understand why you find it so odd that you have Eastern European admixture. I am Southeastern European and I have around 20% North-West European admixture, which I am also trying to identify. Remember that there have been numerous population movements from east to west Europe and vice versa during the last 8000 years.

----------


## Stears555

Romani people mixed with balkanite people.

----------


## Stears555

Do not forget the linguistic fact, that gypsy languages are the closest to the ancient Sanskrit language :)))))

----------

